Amy and Brian Fanion

0:00 Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of. Marriage, some days you'll feel like killing your husband, and. Some days you'll feel like killing your wife. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Tina, Hey Rich. How are you? I'm great? How are you? I'm doing good. It feels like a year since we recorded. It does feel like a year. And you've You've lived a whole lifetime in the time that we recorded. I spent a week in France and spent some time at the Olympics, which was super cool.

0:41 Experience, and I'm so glad you got to go. Yeah, it was really fun. I had a great time here at home. I know you did. I can hear of a sick cat. That was. Oh my gosh, that was It was a really crappy week. I'm going to say that Cosmo was at the vat five times and seven days, and the days he didn't go, they actually wanted him to go, and I was like, I can't. First of all, I can't afford to pay you anymore, because it was anyway anyway, he's he looks like he's on the upswing, so that's good. But yeah, it was. It was well, I appreciate you taking care of our sick cat. It was having fun. I'm super glad you got to go. And you did sign a contract in blood that we are going to go to the Olympics in four years. Yes, absolutely, And one of our listener friends in Italy suggested that we go to the the Winter Olympics in two years, so maybe we could think about that too in Italy.

1:39 Yeah, oh I didn't know that. Well, that would be amazing. So I did bring you a snack. Yeah, I think I know what it is. I think you know what it is too, because I know you were on a quest to try Cheetos from all over the world. Well, and Sam and Tim had sent us the snacks from from Italy. Right and yeah, and they were pretty different. Oh, they were very different. Yeah, I'm not sure if these are going to be different or not. But these are Cheetos goot fromage, which means cheese flavored Cheetos, which is okay, seems a little redundant to me, but yeah, can you hold them up, so do you want to give them a try? It looks okay. So you got the the puffy kind.

2:19 It was the only kind I could find. These were actually a little hard to find. I'm not sure if cheetos are not super popular in France, but let's give them a try. Yeah, absolutely can't wait. Well, how did you enjoy your French cheetos? I enjoyed them quite a lot. They're really they're really good. They're really similar to like the puppy cheetos here. I think they're a little crisper. And I don't speak French, but I do see an ingredient that I'm pretty sure is paprika, and I don't know if there's paprika in the American cheetos. Also, the most interesting thing is down here in the corner there is a nutri score ABCD. Yeah, and I guess what these are?

3:00 I think I saw it. It's a D, which I'm kind of surprised they're not an E. But that's a great I think that's it's good to have that on it. It is. Yeah, it's a nice I mean, not that anyone thinks that cheetos are a health snack, but it does kind of maybe give you pause. Yeah, yeah, for sure, A little less complicated than trying to figure out calories and saturated fat and all that. Stuff. Well that's on there too, on the back right. But it's nice to have a simple, right visual thing. Yeah, well, thank you. They were good, and I'm going to try to limit my cheeto intake. And this this is bag is probably like a very generous it's not a but in the US kind of like a single serving size or like two, but this would probably be like eight servings in France because much healthier than we are.

3:45 But probably thank you very good. Anytime today, we are going to share the story of Amy and Brian Fanyon. This was a recommendation from Sarah, one of our partners in crime. So funny story. You had told me just a smidgey smidge about this. Ye and I we have a spreadsheet where we keep case recommendations, and I somehow landed on this one and I started working on it, and I was like, wait a minute, sounds vaguely familiar, and there's there's yet another Massachusetts police officer. That's yeah, well, it's pretty coincidental that you and I were both working on Massachusetts police officer cases when you were doing the Karen Reid John O'Keefe case as well. I think if you are in Massachusetts right now, you are very aware of all the problems in the police forces. Yeah, well, but this takes place in a completely different it does.

4:35 This is not in the Boston area, very different case than the Karen Reid John O'Keefe case. Amy and Brian Fanion were pillars of the Westfield, Massachusetts community, where they lived, married for over thirty years, active in their church. Amy a stay at home mom, loved by her family and friends, and Brian a well respected detective getting ready to retire from the Westfield Police Department after more more than thirty years of service. When Brian called nine one one shortly after noon on May eighth, twenty eighteen to say that Amy had shot herself in the head right in front of him while the two were having an argument, no one who knew the couple well doubted his story. Brian was a cop with a reputation for ethics and integrity, and while Amy didn't have a history of depression, according to those who knew her best, she did have a hair trigger temper and was prone to losing control when that temper got the best of her.

5:28 Those are two different things. Though I know they are very different things. But as an independent team of investigators started looking at the evidence, they saw things differently. They came to believe that Brian pulled the trigger and staged the scene to make it look like suicide. Was it possible that this trusted, esteemed, and highly regarded police officer killed Amy in a premeditated, cold blooded manner. Very few people, even those closest to Amy, believed that this could be true. Westfield, Massachusetts, is in the western part of the state, part of the Springfield, Massachusetts Greater Metropolitan Area. Westfield is known as Whip City because in the eighteen hundreds it was the center of the buggy whip industry. Buggy whips are the whips that drivers of horse drawn carriages would use for driving the horses, which kind of surprised me that that was that big of an industry.

6:19 Yeah, well, everyone had a horse instead of a car, so there would be a lot of horse and buggies. Yeah, I guess so. With a population of forty thousand, Westfield has been described as a big small town, big enough that it's a city with lots of things to do, but small enough that people know each other and there's a sense of community. The Fanyan family was well known in Westfield. Many of Brian's family members who came before him had gone into public service, either as part of the police force or in local politics. The Forty eight Hours episode on this case referred to them as the Kennedys of Westfield. Amy Hansen also grew up in Westfield as part of a big family with ten kids, six girls and four boys. Brian and Amy met in nineteen eighty three, when he was nineteen and she was sixteen, and the couple married two years later. Their son, Travis, was born in late nineteen eighty five, and three and a half years later a daughter, Victoria, came along to complete the family.

7:18 Very young family, yeah, very young, and. I believe they were both each other's first love. While Brian focused on his career with the Westfield Police Department, Amy stayed home to raise the kids. She loved being a stay at home mom. She considered it the best job in the world. At some point, she did go back to work part time, working for a financial advisor for just a few hours every week. Brian and Amy were both deeply religious and involved in their congregation, the Wyban Union Church, which was just a three minute walk from the house that they lived in At the time of Amy's death, the church was active, with members going on missions both locally and internationally. Brian was a deacon at the church and regularly went on missions, for example, to help build wells in Mexico. He also volunteered at a local soup kitchen to provide meals for people in need, and he would represent law enforcement in community outreach efforts.

8:13 In addition to being active in the church, Amy volunteered at the Cancer House of Hope. In her obituary, Amy was described as a quote kind, loving, selfless woman, bringing a ray of sunshine, full of peace, love and joy to all who knew or needed her. A passionate wife and mother, she was a lover of family, nature, gardening, hiking, kayaking, and bicycling, and an avid volunteer, happiest working behind the scenes in her community and church, with unwavering faith in her God and Savior. In the year two thousand, Brian and Amy bought a two hundred year old farmhouse on seven acres in the rural Wiban neighborhood of Westfield. Amy loved looking out on the beautiful wooded property with the picturesque red barn outback. She told friends that She was happy knowing that this was where she and Brian were going to spend the rest of their lives, but living in a two hundred year old farmhouse presents some big challenges with the constant upkeep and maintenance required. By the spring of twenty eighteen, as Brian, now fifty four, was planning his retirement from the Westfield Police Force, he wasn't sure that he wanted to spend all this time fixing and maintaining everything that the old house would need. It had become a source of contention between the couple. I can imagine, yeah, I can too.

9:31 I mean, our house is nic a very nice house. It's newer and still there's always something right. But having a two hundred year old house, it must be just overwhelming, constantly wanting to update and yeah, definished. And I've looked at the house on Zillow pictures and it really is a beautiful property. It's a really nice house. It seems like a great location. But yeah, I'm sure it's a ton of work. On Monday, May seventh, the day before she died, Amy left work and her employer, Janet Porter, said see you next Monday. Amy replied the same way she always did Lord Willing and the Creek Don't Rise, which is a reference to a Johnny Cash song, Don't Know That song. Janet said that Amy seemed perfectly fine and had a smile on her face as usual.

10:16 That night, Amy worked on a gift that she was making for a baby shower that she was planning to attend the coming weekend. It was a step stool with different animals painted on each side. She texted her daughter a picture of it, asking for advice on one of the pictures. Her daughter replied and said it was adorable, and I've seen the pictures and it really was adorable. The next morning, Tuesday, May eighth, twenty eighteen, Brian went to work as usual. Around eleven Am Amy's brother, Eric Hanson came by. He was a big disc golf enthusiast, and there happened to be a disc golf course right behind the Fanian's home, so Eric would come by a lot about three times a week on average and park at Brian and Amy's house. He stepped in to say hi to his sister, who who was home alone, before heading over to the course. Eric later said they talked about the good weather that was heading their way. Amy seemed like her usual happy self. Soon after, Amy took a short drive over to their daughter Victoria's house to let her dog out and turn on her slow cooker for her. She got back home a little before noon.

11:20 In the meantime, Brian left work around eleven forty five to come home for lunch, as he often did. He arrived just a few minutes after Amy did peanut butter and jelly sandwiches around the menu. Grown ups eat peanut I eat peanut b and all the time. You don't as mine, Not all the time, but yeah, occasionally, Okay. A little side note, because Cosmo would only eat tuna juice, that was the only pant could get. Him to eat, We've been eating a lot of. Tuna fish, a lot of tune. When Brian got home, he said that he and Amy continued an argument that had started the previous night. The argument had gotten heated, and they picked up right where they left off. The argument was about a few things, but mostly at boil down to what the couple wanted their life to look like after Brian's retirement from the police force.

12:05 So his retirement was within a year. Lest year. Amy loved their two hundred year old farmhouse, but Brian didn't look forward to spending his retirement trying to keep up with the work that it required. He wanted to consider moving. Brian wanted to travel, while Amy was more of a homebody. Their dog was getting old and most likely didn't have much longer to live. Amy couldn't imagine life without a dog, she said, a house without pets was essentially dead to her. Well, Brian wanted to treat them and felt that another dog would tie them down. Then, to top it off, Amy told him during lunch that she had committed them to attend a play that a family member would be performing in. It happened to be on a day that Brian had been planning to attend a disc golf tournament. Brian wasn't happy that Amy had committed him to the play without asking him first. The argument heated up again, with Brian later saying that Amy was a nine out of ten on the anger scale.

13:04 At some point during the argument and while they were making lunch, Brian needed to use the restroom, so he took his forty five caliber Smith and Weston pistol out of his holster and set it on the hutch in the dining room. When he came out, he saw Amy with a gun in her hand, pointing it at the right side of her head. She said something like quote, obviously you don't want me around anymore, Bryan said. At this point he was about four or five feet away from Amy. He lunged toward her to try and grab the gun and stop her from pulling the trigger, but as he got closed, the gun went off and Amy dropped to the floor. According to Brian, it all happened so fast he barely had time to react. Ryan called out for Amy's brother, Eric, who had just finished playing disc golf behind their house. Eric said he heard Brian's voice calling out to him, crying and upset. Then Brian called nine one one, nine on.

13:54 One to sign the corder. What's the actress to your emergency? Hi, Brian Saniel at a northros sh. She's gone, okay, are you sure? Yes? All right, We'll get them right out there, Brian, Okay. Bye. When Eric came into the house, he saw Amy lying on the dining room floor in a pull of blood. Brian was holding Amy's hands in his own. Amy shot herself, Brian said to Eric, and also told him they had been having an intense argument. Eric tried to console him, saying, quote, it's not your fault over and over again. He described Brian's demeanor as extremely upset, distraught, and crying while saying she's gone over and over again. While waiting for the police, Eric said he picked up one of the peanut butter and jelly sandwiches that had fallen to the floor, and also took the Fanian's dog away from the kitchen. At some point, Eric noticed the gun lying on the floor beside Amy's hip. Worried that Brian might harm himself. Eric picked up the gun and set it on the kitchen table.

14:59 Then police were arriving. Eric picked it up again and started taking it outside. The officers arriving on the scene instructed him to put the gun down, so he said it on the front porch. At some point, Brian asked his brother in law what happened to the gun. When Eric said that he had moved it, Brian told him he probably shouldn't have done that. Brian was, after all, a detective with a lot of experience processing evidence in crime scenes. I think the fact that he moved it just goes to show you that Eric Amy's brother at least didn't think anything other than the fact that she had shot herself. At least in that moment, he had no other thought, and so he wasn't concerned about painting evidence or anything like that.

15:39 He'd never watched an episode of CSI or Law and Order. You never touch anything in the crime scene. Maybe not, but you know, he didn't think it was a crime scene. I think, Okay, so Eric had just finished playing disc golf, right had he come into the house yet or. I don't believe so. I wasn't able to see a lot of detail. It seems really coincidental that he happened to be done and happened to be right there when Amy was shot because he heard he heard Brian call him out, So I don't know. Exactly the situation, and saw him approaching the house. Maybe that could be because if he was. Just like out in the yard, like practicing or packing up his stuff. I wouldn't think that she wouldn't have shot herself then, or Brian wouldn't have shot her knowing that he was on the property. But you had said the property. It was a large property, so essentially the brother could have been far away and not heard the gun shot.

16:33 Yeah, that's true. The first detectives on the scene were from the Westfield Police Department, where Brian worked. This included Mike McCabe, senior captain of the Westfield Police Department who would later get elected as to Westfield's mayor in twenty twenty one, and also Police Chief John Camarata. Okay, so we can already see a conflict of interest, right. I think you'll see it get cleared up pretty quick, but maybe a little bit. N asked mc cabe if it was okay to go wash his hands, which were covered in Amy's blood, and McCabe said he could. When Police Chief Camerata arrived on the scene, he said that Brian was sitting with his face buried in his hands, sobbing and rocking back and forth.

17:14 At other times he was just staring straight ahead, as if in shock. The officers on the scene were friends and colleagues of Brian's. While they might not have suspected anything other than suicide, they quickly realized that a thorough investigation would be required and that it had to be independent, so they immediately called the Massachusetts State Police, who arrived on the scene around one pm. Oh interesting, now we know that the Massachusetts State Police. Well, what year is this, twenty eighteen? Okay, were they were there scandals at that time? I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing yes. To avoid possible conflict of interest, it was decided right away that the state police would be the sole investigators on the case. Very interesting.

18:02 Yeah, so, I think the local Westfield police handled it well, except for the fact that McKay let him wash his hands. That was definitely a mistake that shouldn't have happened. But other than that, they handled it well by immediately calling in the state police and saying we're not going to be part of the investigation at all. Well, this begs the question, can you remove gunshot residue from your hands with soap and water? We are going to get so into gunshot. Residue, and I believe when one washing would not remove But okay, let's not put the curb before this. Let's talk about the crime scene. The dining room was in disarray, partly because either Brian or his brother in law Eric had moved chairs out of the way to make space for the first responders. Amy was lying on her back on the floor of the dining room between the table and the hutch. Her hands folded across her stomach where Brian had been holding them. The spent shell casing was on the floor. The dining room table was cluttered with stuff. There was a plate with an intact peanut butter and jelly sandwich, another empty plate across from it with some blood smeared on it, some newspapers, mail and other paperwork, a bag of chips, a police radio, and a pair of glasses. Between the dining room and the breezeway, there was a window that had some blood spatter on the window frame. The police were able to find the bullet that had killed Amy. It had traveled through her head, out into the enclosed breezeway adjacent to the dining room, and then stopped when it hit a dresser in the breezeway. The state police asked Brian to

19:33 accompany them to the State Police barracks fifteen minutes away in the city of Russell to take his statement. He told them about taking his gun off to use the bathroom and coming out to see Amy holding the gun. The gun pointed up to the right side of her head, where I think she said, I guess you don't want me around, or you don't want to be around me? She seated, or no, she's a shoe standing. Note that Brian said she was standing, and he seemed pretty certain about it, right, Yeah, put a pin in that one. He used his right hand and pointer finger to indicate how Amy was holding the gun up to her right temple. Brian said, quote, just she snapped, the gun just exploded. It was just so quick. She didn't hesitate at all unquote. The detectives asked if Amy had any history of depression or mental illness. Brian told them that several years ago she had suffered from anxiety and was on medication for a period of time, but that was it. He stressed to them that she had a bad temper and that most people wouldn't know it. He was the only one who seemed to bring it out of her. Before letting Brian go, they asked him if there were any quote female friends unquote in his life that they should know about. Brian said, yes, there was a woman named Corey Knowles who lived nearly an hour away in Kittsfield. That's so predictable, isn't it really?

20:55 I mean, oh, you're the last good man. Sure's a few others. Corey lived nearly an hour away in Pittsfield, and he said that he had recently developed a close friendship with her. They had met during a mission trip to Mexico about six months ago in November twenty seventeen. He said they were friends and there was some flirting that had developed between them over time, but as Brian put it, it was not a friends with benefits type of thing. Investigators asked Brian if he would turn over his phone, and he agreed. As he gave it to them, he said, quote, You're going to see some things on there, but it isn't what it appears to be. Unquote. Can you imagine the state police detectives were probably super intrigued to check out his phone after that comment.

21:41 I say this out the time, but it's I'm I'm the most boring person. I don't have anything silicious on my phone, but I would never want to turn my phone away same, I mean over to police. What the police are the same? What do you mean? Same? Same? I have nothing silicious on my phone, but I would not want to turn it over that turn. It over to me later. I'm just kidding. I respect your privacy. What the police found was a treasure trove of deleted text messages between Brian and Corey that told a different story than the just good friends who are a little flirty version that Brian had shared. They saw that things had indeed started out casual and friendly shortly after the mission trip near the end of twenty seventeen, but then the number and the tone escalated over the coming months.

22:26 Brian and Corey exchanged twenty three text messages in December one hundred and fifteen, in January two hundred and sixty two, in February six hundred and ninety four, in March one thousand seventy five, in April, and three hundred and seventy one in the seven days of May before Amy's death. That's an interesting grasp. Yes, it really is. So let's do a little true crime theater and read some of the text exchanges. Just a warning, this might get a little spicy. Let's start. You can play the part of Corey and I will play the part of Brian. Maybe the girl, I don't know. Let's start with it. These texts were from April twentieth. In my arms is my happy place. I want you, I need you, I love you.

23:08 I feel the same way. I want you so much, but it's frightening to me. And April twenty. Third, I can feel your lips on mine. Love that memory. I'm thinking of the one with your legs around my waist. Oh my May fourth, what I wouldn't do for one of those big wrap me tight hugs. Hmmm, m to feel your hot breath on my skin. Have I told you that I love being your angel? I swear God made you for me. I so need to hear your voice. I love you. Amy is still being attentive and clingy, and then later in the day he texted back, thank you for being you, the most amazing woman that I have ever known.

23:49 May fifth, my heart belongs to you. I would be lost without you. For smiley face emojis, I am eternally yours. I love you, Corey. I love you so much, Brian. Then May seventh, the day before Amy's death, good night, my love. I hope you have wonderful dreams of amazing days and nights to come. For smiley face emojis, good. Night, my love. I will dream of you and all that the future holds for us. Then May eighth, the morning of Amy's death, while Brian was still at work. When can I hold you again? Not soon enough, turning into a very long morning. Then, on May eight, at twelve forty seven pm, while Amy's body was still on the dining room floor, and before the state police showed up, and even before he called his children to let them know their mother was gone, Brian texted Corey quote, please don't call her text for a while. I'll call when I can. Really bad. Pray for my family, please unquote. It was clear to the state police that they would need to question Brian further about his relationship with Corey Knowles, but before they did that, they wanted to get the autopsy report and other forensic testing results.

24:58 Okay, I'm relieved because I thought you were to make me read one thy seventy four texts. But those text meshes, there's a copy and pasted from our conversation when you were in Europe. Yet I love you so much. I can't wait. Told you in my arms again. We'll be back after a break. While the medical examiner ultimately listed Amy's manner of death as undetermined, the autopsy did not look good for Brian. The medical examiner determined that the gunshot entrance wound was not consistent with a self inflicted gunshot. There was no gunpowder residue or stippling, the tattooing of the skin that occurs when a gun is fired close to the skin.

25:45 The way the skin was torn around the wound also indicated to the medical examiner that the gun had been further away than if Amy had fired the gun herself. There was an estella pattern, which is basically a star shaped wound that typically occurs when a gun is fired into the head at a very close range. The other key thing they looked at was the trajectory of the bullet. The bullet entered Amy's head about an inch or so above her right ear. We've seen some reports that said it entered just above the ear and an inch or two back, and other reports that said it was directly above the ear. In either case, though, the bullet exited Amy's left cheek, which means that the bullet must have traveled slightly back to front and slightly downward. If you put one finger an inch or two above your right ear and the other just below your left cheekbone, it can help you visualize the direction it took. Thank you for the okay, Wow, then if you think about holding a gun and shooting it at that angle, you can see that it would not be a natural way of shooting yourself. In fact, you might find it difficult or even impossible to shoot yourself at that angle because it's so pointed downward or kind of slanty, right exactly.

27:01 I mean, because. Normally you would probably just go straight. Yeah, or slightly upward, right, if you're holding the gun at the side of your head. I think it's really weird though, that the medical examiner, given everything you just went through, that they listed the manner of death as undetermined instead of homicide. And I'm not a medical examiner. I don't know how they make these decisions, but it seems to me that it would be like, all these conclusions are that none of this is consistent with a self inflicted gunshot wound, and yet why not have the manner of death be homicide? Then at the end of the day, a lot of times medical examiners are making these It's kind of an opinion, right. The data you would hope to be more objective, but it is very subjective, and it is often the opinion of just one person.

27:49 Yeah, for sure, But I just think it left the door. It leaves the door open for Brian's defense to basically say, Look, the medical examiner couldn't even say that it was homicide, so how could you the jury say that. Some of the other forensic evidence wasn't as helpful in building a case against Brian. Testing detected gunshot residue on both Brian and Amy, but this didn't really tell them much because gunshot residue can settle on any item near where a gun is fired, any item or human. Remember, Brian claimed he was lunging for the gun when she fired, so he was right there. But if it lands on his hands, that's another thing. Residue can easily be transferred through contact, and Brian was holding Amy's hand in close contact with her after the shooting. Also, because Brian's boss allowed him to wash his hands, any testing for gunshot residue on his hands was not going to be super accurate or reliable. It would be an interesting test to try different soaps to see if some might be more successful in eliminating gunshot residue from your head.

28:56 Would be interesting. Bar soap might be better than you know, pump soap that we all tend to use. Yeah, Yeah, we'll talk later about some of the testing that was done on different gunshot residues, and it is really interesting. One of the things I watched for this episode was forty eight Hours did a case on it, and they had an expert doing some testing of gunshot residue in different circumstancesn't really really fascinating, It. Is really interesting. I feel like you have a very good brain. I mean, my brain's just fine, but you would be a really good scientist. I think maybe they tested Brian's gun as well, but there were no clear fingerprints. The gun had been handled by Amy's brother Eric after the shooting, and it was Brian's service weapon, so even if they had found his fingerprints on it, it wouldn't have told them very much. They did find both Brian and Amy's DNA on the gun, along with another minor DNA profile that couldn't be determined, but it was most likely Eric's, but there wasn't enough of his DNA to be certain. Again, not very helpful. On May seventeenth, nine days after Amy's death and three days after a wake was held at the home of Brian's father, Brian was brought back to the state police barracks for further questioning. Now that he was clearly in the sights of investigators, they had a tricky task ahead of them. This wasn't like interrogating a normal civilian. Being a detective himself, Brian knew all the tricks of the trade. They started out by reading Brian

30:27 his Miranda rights. Brian was immediately on high alert, saying, quote, the other day, you didn't do this. Has something changed. The detectives confronted Brian directly regarding his relationship with Corey. They said, look, we've seen all the text messages. It sure looks like a lot more than just a friendship. Bryan said, yes, it had escalated beyond just friendship. He was embarrassed and ashamed about it. That's why he had tried to downplay it during his first interview. He swore that the two hadn't had sex though, just making out and some messing around. Not that that's even relevant, because if you're a lovesome, you know right. He claimed that every time he had seen Corey, Amy knew about it, but Amy didn't know about their romance or that they had kissed. He also said that his expectations for Corey were clear from the beginning.

31:19 Did this Corey want to take you to a different level with your brier or we talked about that and we had an understanding that as farfe Okay, okay, so Corey talked about it with you, or we both stop from the beginning, we said, okay, this is what it is. Just to make sure we were both. On the same page. Exactly, you know, just friends, they had Brian go over his story again and provide details on what exactly happened in the dining room on that fateful day. So just show me what you see though, or that you should demonstrate what you've seen her.

32:04 I just saw the gun. Does she have it? Does she have it held like by the handle? And how she holds in the hill. She's not a gun person, so it looks like she was holding awkwardly. She may have, don't she may have even had him. Where pumped in her. Was really awkward to issue to him because she should not a gunners. Hmm. By this time, Brian must have known that his story wasn't adding up regarding the gun angle and bullet trajectory, so he kept stressing that she was holding the gun awkwardly. Also, whereas during the first interview, he said Amy was standing. This time, he wavered and said he thought she had been sitting. If she had been sitting and using her thumb, it would seem more likely that she could have held the gun at that angle that would result in the slightly downward back to front trajectory. The detectives then told Brian straight up that there was a problem with his story.

33:00 There was no indication that she had a gun close to her head. There was no stippling on her at all. I mean, there's no doubt she get was shot. But the question is from with distance? It was right free from there. I'm telling you, yeah. I mean I have to make sure of this here, Brian, Brads. Do what you need to, But I'm telling you it was right there. How could that not leave the evidence? I don't know. That's why I'm asking you. All I can tell you is what I saw. And the gun was right there, right pressed up against her.

33:40 I don't know if it was contact, but it was right there. Ryan was steadfast in his denial. So the other options, you got pissed in your foot or a few feet away and you shot her, diet she's sitting. He didn't even have a sandwich. Didn't happen, didn't happen, did not happen. She picked up the gun and. She shut herself and I tried to stop her, and I couldn't. I love the interrogation here because it's not very often you hear an interrogation where they're just directly confronting him, like right, and that was definitely the case here. So it was interesting to hear. Well they let him go what the state police were becoming more and more convinced that Brian was responsible for Amy's death.

34:21 Same On the same day that they interviewed Brian for the second time, detectives also interviewed Corey Knowles. Corey was forty eight years old on her second marriage, a grandmother, and a member of her church's choir. She was very forthcoming and fleshed out the story that was told by the text messages. When she and Brian met on the mission to Mexico. She was married but going through a tough time. Brian helped her work through her feelings about her marriage. He was easy to talk to and supportive. He didn't tell her what she should do, He just listened and gave her positive affirmations. In January, twenty eighteen, Corey came to the Fanian's church for a slide show presentation about the mission trip. She sat with Brian and Amy, and afterwards she went to lunch with them along with their two children. It was all very above board and friendly.

35:11 Over time, as Corey shared more with Brian about her troubled marriage, he became a confidant, and eventually the relationship became flirtatious. They started talking on the phone frequently when they were able to, and on March thirtieth, Brian told Corey over the phone that he was in love with her. On April sixteenth, Corey came over to Brian and Amy's house, where they had planned to meet before leaving to do some volunteer work together. Amy wasn't home yet, and Brian and Corey shared their first kiss in the kitchen of Brian and Amy's home. Amy arrived home soon after. Brian and Corey then took the Fanian's dog for a walk. WHOA, it's a very strange situation family dog.

35:52 Yes. Amy opted out of taking the dog for a walk because it was starting to rain, and Brian and Corey kissed some more during their walk in the world Woods Two days later, on the eighteenth, Brian texted Corey asking for a photo of her that he could keep on his work computer. Corey asked if Amy was okay with that. Brian said, no one else sees his work email. Later that day, Brian texted Corey saying they were reaching the quote possibility of a boundary we can't cross unquote. She replied, saying that she was quote trying not to cross boundaries. Brian later replied, quote the heart wants what the heart wants, even if it can't have it. On April twentieth, Corey and Brian met in an outlet mall not far from Corey's house. They did some shopping, and then they made out in her car. It seemed like things were starting to get serious by this time, because Corey messaged Brian later that day quote I don't want to scare you, but I can't imagine life without you.

36:50 I hope we can be together forever unquote. And Corey was friends with Amy or just acquaint acquaintances. I think she was acquaintances only because she and had gone on this mission together, and she had come to their church and come to their house, so I think she knew Amy, but I don't think they were friends. A few days after Corey sent Brian that text message saying she hoped they could be together forever, she told Brian that she had made a decision that she was going to leave her husband, not necessarily because of Brian, but the marriage just was not working. The pair next met on April thirtieth at a park in Westfield, where they again messed around in Corey's truck. Things got hot and heavy, but she supported Brian's story that they hadn't actually had sex. She said that Brian told her he couldn't perform because he was still married to Amy and felt guilty. This was the last time they saw each other before Amy's death eight days later. The next time they saw each other was at Amy's wake, which was held at the home of Brian's father, six days after Amy died. Corey said that at some point she and Brian snuck down to the basement to kiss while the other guests were upstairs. Really classy move mad. A week after their second interview with Brian, detectives obtained a search warrant for his home. When the officers showed up at his door, Brian asked if they were there to arrest him.

38:10 They said no, and then he asked whether they thought he did it. They didn't answer that one. During the search, they took some additional measurements to further analyze the trajectory of the bullet that killed Amy. They also confiscated Brian's electronic devices, and at the same time, his work computer was taken for analysis. So Corey isn't suspicious about the circumstances of Amy's death. I don't know whether she was suspicious or not. She's making out with him at Amy's wake. Yeah, you would think you probably wouldn't do that if you thought this guy just killed his wife. So yeah, that's a pretty good assumption. As summer rolled around, the state police investigators clearly had Brian in their sights, but they were taking their time to methodically build their case and ensure that it was as strong as possible before bringing it to the grand jury. In the meantime, Corey decided to break up with Brian. We mentioned earlier that Corey had decided to leave her husband, and she came to the conclusion that she needed to go through the process by herself. Now that's what she said. I wonder if maybe in her heart of hearts, she came to the conclusion that she maybe did think that Brian killed Amy.

39:17 She watched a couple episodes of Dateline. Right, wait a minute, But. In any case, she told Brian it was over, and Brian seemed to take it very well, which seems a little bit surprising given how hot and heavy their romance was. It's surprising both that Corey dumped Brian, but also that he took it so well. But I guess they both had other things on their minds. Brian also started sending things to investigators and the medical examiner. It appeared like he was trying to be helpful, but he was clearly highlighting things to try and support his assertion that Amy had taken her own life. For example, he sent a list of medications Amy had been taking, mostly vitamins and supplements, but he was sure to point out that she suffered from IBS and that it was trick by anxiety and depression.

40:02 He also sent copies of specific pages of her journal, highlighting passages where she seemed to be struggling or depressed. When the analysis of Brian's work and home devices came back, it added to the mounting pile of evidence against Brian. There were quite a few incriminating searches, websites visited, and videos viewed, all starting after his affair with Corey had heated up. Some of the searches and sights indicated the guilt he must have been experiencing as his feelings for Corey grew. He searched quote you have to have sex to have an affair and visited a site with an article headlined emotional infidelity worse than an affair. He must have been weighing the pros and cons of divorcing amy at one point, because he googled how divorce affects pension rights calculating alimony in Massachusetts and he pulled up an article titled Tough Realities of Divorce. Brian also searched for ampowerments at one point. It appeared that he was thinking about different ways someone might come to harm. Some searches and sights he visited included common and dangerous poisons, which drug causes the most deaths each year, sixteen common household items that could kill you, carbon monoxide, the invisible killer, household poisons, and common prescription overdoses. At this point, we need to remind you that Brian is a detective. Yeah, true,

41:35 and he should have known better. Twelve days before Amy's death, Brian seemed to develop an interest in gunshot residue. He watched a video on YouTube called what gunshot residue test tells Us, looked up the word stipling. I wish you would think as a cop, he would probably know what that meant already, right, and. He made some other searches related to gunshot residue testing. He also researched how the manner of death can be determined by the distance of a gun muzzle from its target. These searches were all from his work computer, and one could argue that that was part of his job as a cop. Well, Brian wasn't working on any cases during that time where gunshot residue might have been involved. The day before Amy died, he searched for how to delete text messages and contexts permanently from his phone. The morning of her death, he used his work computer to search which Massachusetts State Police units would respond and do forensic testing at a crime scene. That's there's a lot of damn search that is, yes, yes, wow, I mean that's more than circumstantial evidence to me, Like we talked about a lot, Like circumstantial evidence is evidence, and that's a lot of circumstantial evidence.

42:52 Yeah. Wow, completely, And like you said earlier, just the fact that he is a cop and he did all these searches, it just kind of boggles the mind. Yeah. While the evidence against Brian was mounting, he received a surprising show of support in July. It came in the form of a letter to the district attorney, signed by all of Amy's siblings and her mother. The first part of the letter read quote, I'm writing on behalf of the immediate and extended family of Amy Hansen Fanion. We wish to extend our complete and unfailing support of Brian Fanion, her husband, as this investigation proceeds. Unequivocally, we are certain Amy took her own life on May eighth, twenty eighteen, and thus we are certain that her husband, Brian, did not take her life. End quote.

43:40 That's shocking, isn't that amazing? Wow. The letter goes on to say they knew the details of Brian and Amy's relationship and the issues they faced, presumably talking about the affair Brian was having with Corey and that those details did not affect their opinions or lessen their support for Brian. This put the DA's office in an awkward position, but they were steadfast in their belief that Brian did indeed kill Amy, and they continued the process of building their case. It's really wild, isn't it. I Mean we see that a lot of cases here where the family initially, like even Lacy Peterson's family initially supported Scott. Yeah.

44:21 Yeah, but it really does if you think about the DA's position, like they're, you know, investigating this crime and getting ready to charge this guy, and yet everybody that is related to the victim is basically saying, no, we don't believe it was him. So yeah, it was crazy because maybe her family knew her frame of mind better than we do. Yeah, but she sounded like she was a relatively happy person. We all go through bouts of anxiety and depression. And we'll go through when we get into the trial, which is coming up next, we'll go through some of her family's testimony of basically, you know, testifying to her anger issues. Oh okay. On November sixth, twenty nineteen, the DA was finally ready to move forward. The police showed up at Brian's door with an arrest warrant. He dropped the mixed nuts that he had been eating onto the floor. I thought it was a funny little detail, and placed his hands behind his back to be cuffed. The courthouse was filled to capacity for his arraignment, with members from both his family and Amy's family sitting behind him in a show of support.

45:22 Brian was eventually released on bail, although he did have to wear a tracking device. It took a while for the trial to start, delayed partly due to COVID. It began on February twenty third, twenty twenty three. The charge was first degree murder with a maximum sentence of life in prison without parole. Brian was now fifty nine years old. The prosecution set out to convince the jury of nine men and seven women for them being alternates, that Brian killed Amy because he was ready to start a new chapter of his life with Corey and Amy was the only thing standing in his way. He didn't want to divorce Amy, both because it would have been bad for him financially, making it impossible for him to retire, but also because of public perception. After all, the Fanians were pillars of the Westfield community, and Brian was seen as a devoutly religious and moral man. The prosecution had a high bower to clear, however, because people in general want to trust police officers, and by all accounts, Brian had been an honest and trustworthy cop throughout his long career.

46:25 The prosecution also wanted to show that Amy was her usual self in the days and weeks leading up to her death. All the messages in her phone were positive and enthusiastic. She wasn't depressed, she was excited for spring. She had things that she was looking forward to. She was going to have a new grandchild soon, her mother was moving back to Massachusetts from South Dakota, and she had been working on making a gift just the night before for a baby shower coming up that weekend, So why would she choose to end her life. Brian's defense, on the other hand, sought to convince the jury that Amy had angerish and that Brian always felt the need to tread lightly around Amy for fear of setting her off.

47:05 When she got angry, she could act impulsively, in this case, grabbing his gun and either intentionally or maybe accidentally, killing herself. The first witness for the prosecution was Amy's younger sister, Anna Hanson. Of all Amy's immediate family, only she and her sister Mary had finally come to the conclusion that Brian was guilty. Anna had signed the letter of support, but said that she felt pressured by her other family members and also because Brian was there when she was asked to sign. Oh, did Brian initiate the letter. I'm not sure if he did or not, but he was definitely involved in it. Her belief in Brian's guilt and her willingness to testify had resulted in the loss of all her best friends, meaning her family. No one would speak to her anymore, she said. She testified that during the course of the investigation, Brian had confided in her that he was worried about investigators seeing searches he had done on his computer. Specifically, he told her he had searched how to make a murder look like a suicide, which strangely enough, was not found by the investigators. Among all the other searches that we talked about that were incriminating.

48:16 Anna asked Brian why he had searched for that, and he claimed that he and Amy were watching a CSI show and that she had asked him to search for it. Anna said that Amy didn't like watching shows like CSI. She preferred sappy romances. Anna also testified about an interaction that she had with Brian two weeks after Amy's death. He said, so, I have this friend, and he proceeded to tell me that he was in love with this person. He was in love with her more than anybody he'd ever been in love with in his life, how happy and wanted he felt by her.

49:00 Did you say to about Ken, Well, I w I. Was still in shock from losing Amy, and now I'm in shock that Brian isn't who I thought Brian was. And I just thought, I was like, well, that's y. Think back to when you first met Amy. And I said, surely you loved Amy, you know, at some point in the beginning even And he said no. So you have this conversation with to defendant, Uh, what's the next thing that happens. We just kind of sat there for a long time. He was holding my hands and it was just quiet for a long time. He said he was gonna go lay down on the couch. So we went into the living room and he laid down and I was put a blanket over him.

49:49 What was the next thing that happened? He grabbed me and kissed me really hard andrey lips? Was it closed or open? Does it was closed? How did you feel about that? It was very uncomfortable. Was that something that he normally did with you? Now you why would he tell her all this? Unless? Do you think he was attracted to her? And I don't know, maybe hard to say. Really. Some of some of Anna's testimony seemed a little strange and unbelievable. She said that Amy had been diagnosed with irritable bowel syndrome in twenty fourteen, and she claimed that Brian had poisoned her somehow, causing the IBS to start.

50:37 Brian's attorney pointed out that she had actually been diagnosed to the IBS in two thousand and six, and Anna wasn't able to say how Brian had poisoned her or why she came to believe that. Anna also testified that something about Brian seemed off starting in twenty seventeen, but couldn't really say what was off about him. The defense pointed out that Amy and Brian's son had been in a serious car accident and around that time, and maybe that could cause one to seem off. And despite claiming that she spoke with Amy almost daily and saw her about once a week, Anna didn't know where Amy worked or that she only worked four hours a week. Finally, Brian's attorneys pointed out that Anna hadn't told investigators about Brian allegedly kissing her until twenty twenty two years into the investigation. So she had some interesting testimony, but I think the Brian's defense team was able to kind of make her look a little bit off or a little bit, you know, not quite stable.

51:33 Maybe. Well, if I asked you what year your sister had Lasik surgery, would you know? No? I would not right. Corey Knowles, now divorced and going by her maiden name Corey Hasty, testified next. She openly shared how she and Brian's relationship had evolved from friendship to flirtation to making out in parking lots. She said that Brian had talked about ending his marriage but was concerned about the financial implications and his ability to retire. She said that shortly before Amy's death, Brian's demeanor changed. He didn't say why, but she sensed that he was getting more frustrated with his marriage. Brian's defense scored more points when they got Corey to admit that Brian wasn't all that upset when she ended their relationship, and even when ultimately you.

52:23 Ended it with Brian. His response was, okay. Isn't that right? To my recollection? In other words, he didn't beg you to change your mind, isn't that correct? Correct? He didn't say to you, oh my god, I killed Amy for you and you're leaving me. He never said that, right. Correct. One other note about Corey's testimony, she never referred to Brian by name, just as the defendant. Perhaps the most important testimony was around the forensics. The prosecution hoped the lack of stipling, the lack of backspatter on the gun, the nature of the bullet wound, and the trajectory of the bullet would convince the jury that it wasn't possible that Amy had shot herself. Their ballistics expert claimed that the gun had been fired on a slightly downward angle from a distance of at least eighteen inches from her head.

53:14 There was no gunshot residue found on her skin around the bullet wound, and the wound did not have the typical stellet pattern that you would expect from a self inflicted bullet. There was also no backspatter of blood on the gun, which is typical for close up gunshots. As a test, the ballistics expert gathered twenty women of roughly Amy's height and had each one attempt to hold a fake gun in a way that could replicate the eighteen inch distance and the angle, and no one could do it, even using their thumb on the trigger the furthest anyone could hold the gun away from their head was fifteen point five inches, and then only with the ballistics expert assisting them. Bryan's defense team had counter arguments from their own experts to explain the ballistics evidence. While they didn't argue that the trajectory of the bullet was slightly downward and slightly back to front, they got the ballistics expert to concede that the trajectory would be possible if Amy had tilted her head slightly down into the right as she pulled the trigger with her thumb. Regarding the lack of backspatter on the gun, the defense had a blood pattern analyst who claimed that no matter how close or far away a gun is fired into the head, it's impossible to say with certainty whether there would be back spatter.

54:27 The defense was also able to get the state's crime lab technician to admit that because of all the variables involved, there was no way to reliably predict when backspatter will occur and when it won't. What about the lack of gunshot residue, The defense argued that because Amy had a thick head of hair that could actually act as a buffer against gunpowder. Their expert had authored a study published in the FBI's Forensic Science Journal in two thousand and four called the Effect of Hair on the Deposition of Gunshot Residue. The study showed how dense, thick hair could block gunshot residue from being deposited on the skin around a bullet hole. For the forty eight Hours episode on the case, the expert did a demonstration. So he used a wig and had they had special paper that makes the gunshot residue visible. And it was really very compelling because he had basically one piece of paper just on its own and one with a wig over it, and he shot a gun from pretty close range into both of them, and on the paper that had no wig on it, it was very visible the gunshot residue, but the one that had the wig on it, there was really almost no gunshot residue on the paper behind the wig.

55:38 Oh interesting the case that I'm working on right now. I also watched a forty eight Hours episode and I just want to say, forty eight hours, I don't think it's enough credit. Yeah, I Dateline is, you know, everyone's favorite, But I think the forty eight hours episodes are great and they sometimes do show more of the forensic information. Yeah, Datelined, Yes, No, I agree. It was really I thought a really interesting. Demonstration shame in my case that I'm working on right now too. While the hair could block gunshot residue from being deposited on the skin, it would still be expected to leave residue in the hair. The prosecution's crime scene analyst admitted that they should have taken a hair sample while Amy's body was still at the crime scene and sent it for testing, but they didn't. Once a body is moved, gunshot residue can easily shake off of the hair and not show up in later testing. They did argue, however, that the autopsy would have revealed a smell of burned hair if the gun had been fired at close range.

56:37 The officer attending the autopsy said that he was specifically trying to detect the smell of burned hair and it wasn't there. The defense's expert also stated that Amy's thick hair could be the reason for the lack of the stelle it or star shaped pattern of the wound, something the prosecution's expert admitted could be the case. The defense also had an explanation for it least some of Brian's suspicious website searches. Remember, he had searched or visited sites with titles like common and Dangerous Poisons, what drug causes the most deaths each year, sixteen common household items that could kill you, and carbon monoxide the Invisible Killer. Well, it just so happened that around the time of these searches, Brian and Amy were preparing to have a young niece stay at their house for a few days, and so it would be natural to try and ensure that their two hundred year old house was safe. I mean, I can totally see those searches being something you would do if you've got an old house and you've got a kid coming to stay with you.

57:38 How old is the kid? I didn't see how old. They just said it was. Young, fixteen, common household items that could kill you. Well, that wasn't what is he searched. That was an article. That was the name of an article that he found, right, So, I mean, yeah, maybe it's a little bit of a stretch, but I think it's I think it's plausible. Me he had kids, but. They were growing up. I mean they had been out of the house for a long time. Still, you know, it's toxic for children. I think it's a plausible defense. However, the defense did not offer any explanation for the searches about gunshot residue. The defense presented some evidence about guns used by the Westfield Police Department in support of the theory that Amy may have pulled the trigger accidentally. First, the guns used by the Westfield Police have a lighter than average trigger pull, meaning it takes less force to pull the trigger, and when an officer takes a gun out of their holster, it's ready to fire, fully loaded and no safety, which that actually really surprised me that I don't know if that's typical or if that's just the Westfield Police policy.

58:42 But they don't have their safety on. There was also evidence presented by both sides regarding the gun habits of police officers, particularly when using the restroom. Would it be normal for a police officer to leave his gun sitting out, especially in the middle of a heated argument. Brian's old boss and now mayor of Westfield, Mike McCabe, testified that Brian didn't normally leave his gun behind when he used the restroom at work, but the defense argued that Amy preferred that Brian sit down to pee when he was at home, which would make the gun more of an inconvenience compared to when standing at a urinal. Of the many things I never thought we would get into in our true crime podcasting career was about what you do with your gun when you go pee?

59:26 Right, I mean, he's home, it's a safe environment. You know, there's no small children around. Yeah, I think you would just put your gun around down somewhere if you were going to the bathroom. Well, and on that same topic, and another blow to the prosecution, one of Amy's friends actually testified that she went to Amy and Brian's house for lunch one day and she saw a handgun sitting on the table while Brian was upstairs changing his clothes. She remembered it distinctly because she was quite uncomfortable around guns, So you're right. It apparently wasn't unusual for Brian to set his gun down while at home. Probably the most crucial testimony for the defense came from Amy's family members, who all supported Brian, except for the two sisters that we mentioned earlier, Anna and Mary. All of her family members who testified on Brian's behalf said that they loved Amy, but they knew that she had a quick temper and could snap at a moment's notice. Amy and Brian's son Travis, testified that growing up, he and his sister would do anything to avoid their mother's fury, which was usually directed at their father.

1:00:29 She would impulsively lose control, briefly lashing out, cursing, banging things around. Their father, on the other hand, was always calm and level headed. I just have to laugh because I can see the same thing happening to me. There were some things in this case. They were a little reminiscent, but well. Your father's always so calm and level headed, and God, I forbid a woman show an emotion every now and then, sometimes you deserve she be yelled at it. I very rarely, much more likely to yella kiss yes. Travis and his sister both testified about taking family road trips. Their dad would drive while their mom was responsible for navigating, and the kids would sit in the back seat. If Brian would miss a turn, Amy could lose her temper, sometimes swinging her arms into the back seat and striking the children. Travis said that he could easily imagine his mom grabbing Brian's gun to dramatically make a point, and because she didn't know much about guns and the fact we mentioned earlier that Westfield police officer's guns have a light trigger pull and no safety, he could picture her accidentally pulling the trigger. Brian and Amy's daughter, Victoria, also testified to many of the same things as her brother.

1:01:42 She said that her mom had a short fuse and you could tell just by looking at her when something was off because of what she called the Amy face. If something went wrong or she didn't get her way, Amy could go off. Under questioning from the prosecution, however, Victoria admitted that she had never seen her mom threaten to harm herself during any of these incidents. Perhaps the most compelling testimony for the defense came from Amy's mom, Patricia Tarrant. She also talked about Amy's temper and how it was normally directed at Brian. She was embarrassed at how Amy would snap at Brian, saying it wasn't a way to talk to your husband. It was more like how you might reprimand a child. Patricia said that Brian did the cooking and cleaning when he came home from work, despite Amy only working four hours a week. She said that Brian couldn't do anything right in Amy's eyes, while Brian was always calm and peaceful.

1:02:33 That is a harsh testimony. Isn't really a lot of this testimony kind of broke my heart because it's like she is the victim one way or another right here, and her whole family is basically up there kind of saying not great things about her on the stand. After forty witnesses and fifteen days of testimony, the case finally went to the jury on March twenty first, twenty twenty three. They deliberated for two days before finding Brian guilty of first degree murder. When the verdict was read, Brian bowed his head, and there were audible gasps and sobs coming from Brian's supporters, many of them from Amy's immediate family. It seemed like most of them truly believed that Brian would be acquitted.

1:03:17 Wow, I should have asked this earlier. But was there a polygraph test? I never read anything about a polygraph test. I'm assuming if he was asked to take one he refused, but I never never saw anything. Most members of the community of Westfield, including both Brian and Amy's families, still stand with Brian. Leaders and members from the church that Brian went to still regularly visit him in prison. Brian is planning to file an appeal, and he has hired a high powered attorney to help him. Rosemary Scapecchio spent ten years uncovering corruption in the Boston Police Department, and she was featured in the Netflix documentary Trial four, where she represented Sean Ellis, who spent more than twenty one years behind bars after being convicted of killing Boston police detective John Mulligan in nineteen ninety three. His conviction was finally overturned with Sciapecchio's help. Rosemary is known for being an aggressive, fierce advocate for people who have been wrongfully convicted. So it will be very interesting to see where this goes.

1:04:23 Wow. All right, so we've had some discussion along the way, but I do have a few questions for you. What do you think about Amy's family nearly all supporting Brian even. To this day. I mean, I don't know what to think. I feel really bad for Amy, like you said, I mean, she is the victim here, and I have a heart. If you're angry, I don't think you're likely to shoot yourself. If she did, which I don't believe she did. I believe I believe he killed her. But if she did, I would say it was probably an accident, that she was just being you know. I mean, how do you accidentally shoot yourself in the head. Yeah, well, and yeah, that is horrible that I want. I hope that they've reevaluated their gun policy, like you said, that they're a light trigger and no safety. I mean that's yeah, that's super dangerous.

1:05:15 Yeah, that is a little bit strange. Do you think that Brian killed I think I know the answer to this, But do you think that Brian killed Amy? I mean, I I think he must have, but I don't I really don't know. I mean her, I have to respect her family and what they think. But I guess not her whole family, right, but the fact that he was, you know, having an affair that never looks good, right. But yeah, I would, I would. I think that he sounds guilty. What do you think was the most compelling evidence against him? I think the searches, Yeah. I think without the searches, I think because I think all the ballistics evidence, I think the defense actually did a very good job of refuting or at least giving some doubt that.

1:05:56 Well, yeah, like you said that that hair evidence is pretty compelling. But I don't know how you get past the searches like searching for gunshot residue and what state police. You know, people are going to respond to a crime scene. That very true. Yeah, I forgot some of those. Yeah. Yeah, that was really pretty pretty damning, I think. And it's heartbreaking to think that, you know, her family is bending over backwards to support him and he might be very well might be guilty. Yeah, it is heartbreaking. Do you think so? The question of whether he did it is a different question from whether you would have found him guilty if you were on the jury, And I know you didn't sit through the whole trial and the jurors did. But do you think, just based on what you've heard, that you would have found him guilty?

1:06:42 That is a good question, and I don't I really, I don't know. As a cop out, I'm sorry, I can't give you a solid this is what I think because I didn't sit through fifteen days of testimony. Yeah, yeah, I would tend to think that I probably would have found him guilty. Yeah, I think I would have to. And really, without the internet searches, I don't think I would have. But with the internet searches, I think that that is what would push me over the edge. But you're right, without sitting through the whole trial, it's it's hard to know. Yeah, I hate to be wishy. Was she Yeah, I do go back to I don't believe she could have shot herself. Yeah. I think Juri's usually get it right. I have a lot of respect for jury's usually.

1:07:26 Yeah. I forgot to mention this about the Karen read child because we were just recording the update. Before we recorded this, the judge is protecting their identities, and at first it was just a short term, but now I think she has permanently sealed their identities because they were nervous for you know, yeah, theirselfs. I can't blame them. Yeah, pretty scary situation, but I think in general jurors should be protected. Yeah. It's delicate work, and in today's world, with you know, everyone being obsessed with true crime and people get invested on one side or the other, I think that, you know, jures, it's important that they feel safe and are able to fulfill their duties.

1:08:09 Yeah. If I was on a jury for a murder, I don't care what the situation was around the murder, I would it would make me very nervous, you know. Yeah. Well that is the story of Brian and Amy Fanyan. We will provide an update if there are updates on Brian's appeal process. Rest in peace. Amy. If you're a regular listener of Love Mary Kill, you know that we every month we donate at least twenty five percent of our revenues from advertising and from our patron program to a different charity. And we're really happy to be able to do that. We're proud to be able to do that. It was one of our goals when we started the podcast is to be able to give back to worthwhile causes. So we let you know this just to say thank you for listening, because it's really because of you that we're able to do this.

1:09:00 And for our July earnings, we gave to an organization called the Headstrong Project. The Headstrong Project is a nonprofit mental health organization providing confidential, barrier free and stigma free PTSD treatment to our veterans, service members, and family connected to their care. Their goal is to help their clients triumph over trauma by providing them with effective mental health treatment. Headstrong's network of Trauma in FOREGM clinical partners provide individualized, evidence based outpatient care to their patients. I am so grateful and in awe of what our military does for us and the sacrifices they and their families make for us. And it makes me really just so sad that so many soldiers come home and suffer.

1:09:51 And the we don't give them the support that they need to and that's just a crime. So, I mean, we weren't able to do much, but we are very proud to be able to support them when we're so grateful to you, our listeners. And we failed to mention in June that we donated to the Trevor Project. The Trevor Project focuses on suicide prevention efforts among lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer and questioning youth. They're both great organizations, and thank you so much for helping us support them. Yeah, thank you. I know we're running a long but I did want to take just a minute to talk about the Olympics because I was able to go for a few days and it was just incredible opportunity, such a great experience, and I really was happy to have the opportunity, partly thanks to my company, which is actually based in Paris, and I had to go there for work, and so you actually encouraged me, like to stay an extra few days and experience some of the Olympics, and it was just it was so cool. It was just a really once in a lifetime experience.

1:10:51 I love the Olympics too, and you know, just being home, it's just just so full of joy and sportsmanship and camarade. Yeah, and I really love the like the underdog stories, like the small countries or the people that normally you wouldn't hear about. One of one of my favorite things was going to see table tennis and there was a woman from China who was fifty eight years old and it was her first Olympics ever. She had like given up table tennis for twenty years and then gotten back into it, and it was just so cool. Like she's she's not gonna win a medal, but it was just awesome that she was there and she played incredibly and it was really it was just really cool to see.

1:11:31 Yeah, there's so many good heartwarming stories and if you're not crying, you're not really watching the Olympics because they just it just makes me so emotional and even like you're saying, it's great to see an underdog, but also like it's hard not to mention the goats like Katie Ledecky. It's Simone Biles. Yeah, they're also incredible to watch as well. She's making history. And I love that women's sports always takes a backseat to men's sports, but this Olympics it feels like women are being celebrated. Yeah. Absolutely. I actually have a short story about a young woman that I just saw this morning that it's very much related to this, so I wanted to share it too, because it's kind of like a heartbreaking story but really amazing this gymnast. Her name was Alena Mukina.

1:12:15 Have you ever heard of her? I don't believe so. So she died at the age of forty six, eighteen years ago, and I just saw this Twitter thread from a Twitter user named Danny Boy. But she's one of the most talented gymnasts that ever was around, and she actually never got to compete at the Olympics. So she was born in Moscow. She was orphaned as a child. Their mother passed away. She grew up in an orphanage. But she really loved gymnastics and she became like she just had this relentless drive and she made all this progress and so was she became like one of the best gymnasts in Russia. And she competed at the World's Championship in nineteen seventy eight against Nadiya Kominici, who well know Nadiya she right, she was from Romania and everyone was like, yeah, Nadia Komonici is going to win this. Well, Elena beat Nadia in a huge upset to become the all around world champion in nineteen seventy eight. But then she broke her leg in nineteen seventy nine, and you know, in Moscow in Russia. She was under so much pressure that they removed her cast early to try to get her back in time for the Olympics. The doctor actually refused, They said that her leg hadn't healed enough, but they kept putting pressure on the doctors to comply. And it was I mean, it was like she was being bullied essentially by her coaches. And there was a video of an interview with her coach that was shown and it was so uncomfortable to watch because you could just tell she was really under a lot of pressure and it

1:13:48 was really an unhealthy relationship. Their coaches pushed her to include this particular move in her routine. It's called the Thomas Selto, and it had never been performed by a female gymnast in competition. It's actually banned today because it's too dangerous. Oh I think I saw a video of this, yes, and she. Knew how dangerous it was, and she protested to her coach like she was eighteen years old and she's telling her coach, this is I'm going to break my neck doing this, and the coach was like, you have to do it, like world champions don't break their neck. So he kept pressuring her to practice it over and over again, and she actually did break her neck and staffed her spine and she became paralyzed without any movement from the shoulder down at age of twenty. So it's super you know, such a tragic story and so sad. And she was like never expected to walk again or be able to do anything, but she had this just relentless drive and determination and she know rehabbed and she was able to gain at least some you know, some movement and some independence, but it was just you know, really a hard thing for her, and she ended up dying really young, which is is just so sad, Like she just wanted to be able to write poetry again. That was her passion and so she worked so hard at rehab just to be able to do that. And it was people like that that are just you know, again the kind of the unsung heroes that you don't hear as much about.

1:15:10 But just amazing story. So I just saw that this morning. I just wanted to share it because I thought it was a really a really moving story and I had never heard of her, and yeah, I think it's important to know those stories. Story. Well, thank you all so much. For listening. We really truly appreciate each and every one of you. Please rate, review, follow and subscribe, Find us on social media, or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. And please consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash love Marykill. We have one tier five dollars a month for early ad free access and a monthly bonus episode. Until next time. Don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife.

1:16:02 Then to topick to to