Aug. 12, 2024

Amy and Brian Fanion

Amy and Brian Fanion
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Amy and Brian Fanion were pillars of the Westfield, Massachusetts community. Married for over 30 years, active in their church, Amy was a beloved stay-at-home mom and Brian a well-respected police detective. When Brian called 911 shortly after noon on May 8th, 2018 to say that Amy had shot herself in the head, no one who knew the couple well doubted his story. But as investigators delved into the evidence, a different picture started to emerge. Was it possible that this highly regarded police officer killed his wife in a premeditated, cold-blooded manner?

Today's snack: Cheetos Goût Fromage

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WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina.

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And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty

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years of.

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Marriage, some days you'll feel like killing your husband, and.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Tina, Hey Rich.

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How are you?

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I'm great? How are you?

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I'm doing good.

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It feels like a year since we recorded.

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It does feel like a year.

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And you've You've lived a whole lifetime in the time

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that we recorded.

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I spent a week in France and spent some time

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at the Olympics, which was super cool.

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Experience, and I'm so glad you got to go.

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Yeah, it was really fun.

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I had a great time here at home.

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I know you did.

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I can hear of a sick cat. That was. Oh

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my gosh, that was It was a really crappy week.

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I'm going to say that Cosmo was at the vat

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five times and seven days, and the days he didn't go,

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they actually wanted him to go, and I was like,

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I can't. First of all, I can't afford to pay

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you anymore, because it was anyway anyway, he's he looks

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like he's on the upswing, so that's good. But yeah,

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it was.

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It was well, I appreciate you taking care of our

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sick cat. It was having fun.

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I'm super glad you got to go. And you did

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sign a contract in blood that we are going to

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go to the Olympics in four years. Yes, absolutely, And

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one of our listener friends in Italy suggested that we

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go to the the Winter Olympics in two years, so

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maybe we could think about that too in Italy.

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Yeah, oh I didn't know that. Well, that would be amazing.

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So I did bring you a snack.

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Yeah, I think I know what it is.

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I think you know what it is too, because I

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know you were on a quest to try Cheetos from

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all over the world.

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Well, and Sam and Tim had sent us the snacks

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from from Italy.

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Right and yeah, and they were pretty different.

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Oh, they were very different.

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Yeah, I'm not sure if these are going to be

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different or not. But these are Cheetos goot fromage, which

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means cheese flavored Cheetos, which is okay, seems a little

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redundant to me, but yeah, can you hold them up,

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so do you want to give them a try?

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It looks okay. So you got the the puffy kind.

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It was the only kind I could find. These were

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actually a little hard to find. I'm not sure if

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cheetos are not super popular in France, but let's give

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them a try.

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Yeah, absolutely can't wait.

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Well, how did you enjoy your French cheetos?

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I enjoyed them quite a lot. They're really they're really good.

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They're really similar to like the puppy cheetos here. I

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think they're a little crisper. And I don't speak French,

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but I do see an ingredient that I'm pretty sure

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is paprika, and I don't know if there's paprika in

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the American cheetos. Also, the most interesting thing is down

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here in the corner there is a nutri score ABCD. Yeah,

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and I guess what these are?

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I think I saw it.

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It's a D, which I'm kind of surprised they're not

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an E. But that's a great I think that's it's

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good to have that on it.

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It is.

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Yeah, it's a nice I mean, not that anyone thinks

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that cheetos are a health snack, but it does kind

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of maybe give you pause.

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Yeah, yeah, for sure, A little less complicated than trying

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to figure out calories and saturated fat and all that. Stuff.

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Well that's on there too, on the back right.

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But it's nice to have a simple, right visual thing.

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Yeah, well, thank you. They were good, and I'm going

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to try to limit my cheeto intake. And this this

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is bag is probably like a very generous it's not

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a but in the US kind of like a single

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serving size or like two, but this would probably be

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like eight servings in France because much healthier than we are.

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But probably thank you very good. Anytime today, we are

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going to share the story of Amy and Brian Fanyon.

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This was a recommendation from Sarah, one of our partners

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in crime.

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So funny story. You had told me just a smidgey

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smidge about this. Ye and I we have a spreadsheet

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where we keep case recommendations, and I somehow landed on

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this one and I started working on it, and I

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was like, wait a minute, sounds vaguely familiar, and there's

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there's yet another Massachusetts police officer.

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That's yeah, well, it's pretty coincidental that you and I

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were both working on Massachusetts police officer cases when you

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were doing the Karen Reid John O'Keefe case as well.

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I think if you are in Massachusetts right now, you

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are very aware of all the problems in the police forces. Yeah, well,

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but this takes place in a completely different it does.

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This is not in the Boston area, very different case

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than the Karen Reid John O'Keefe case. Amy and Brian

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Fanion were pillars of the Westfield, Massachusetts community, where they lived,

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married for over thirty years, active in their church. Amy

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a stay at home mom, loved by her family and friends,

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and Brian a well respected detective getting ready to retire

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from the Westfield Police Department after more more than thirty

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years of service. When Brian called nine one one shortly

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after noon on May eighth, twenty eighteen to say that

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Amy had shot herself in the head right in front

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of him while the two were having an argument, no

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one who knew the couple well doubted his story. Brian

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was a cop with a reputation for ethics and integrity,

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and while Amy didn't have a history of depression, according

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to those who knew her best, she did have a

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hair trigger temper and was prone to losing control when

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that temper got the best of her.

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Those are two different things.

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Though I know they are very different things. But as

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an independent team of investigators started looking at the evidence,

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they saw things differently. They came to believe that Brian

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pulled the trigger and staged the scene to make it

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look like suicide. Was it possible that this trusted, esteemed,

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and highly regarded police officer killed Amy in a premeditated,

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cold blooded manner. Very few people, even those closest to Amy,

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believed that this could be true. Westfield, Massachusetts, is in

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the western part of the state, part of the Springfield,

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Massachusetts Greater Metropolitan Area. Westfield is known as Whip City

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because in the eighteen hundreds it was the center of

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the buggy whip industry. Buggy whips are the whips that

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drivers of horse drawn carriages would use for driving the horses,

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which kind of surprised me that that was that big

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of an industry.

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Yeah, well, everyone had a horse instead of a car,

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so there would be a lot of horse and buggies.

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Yeah, I guess so. With a population of forty thousand,

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Westfield has been described as a big small town, big

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enough that it's a city with lots of things to do,

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but small enough that people know each other and there's

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a sense of community. The Fanyan family was well known

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in Westfield. Many of Brian's family members who came before

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him had gone into public service, either as part of

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the police force or in local politics. The Forty eight

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Hours episode on this case referred to them as the

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Kennedys of Westfield. Amy Hansen also grew up in Westfield

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as part of a big family with ten kids, six

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girls and four boys. Brian and Amy met in nineteen

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eighty three, when he was nineteen and she was sixteen,

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and the couple married two years later. Their son, Travis,

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was born in late nineteen eighty five, and three and

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a half years later a daughter, Victoria, came along to

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complete the family.

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Very young family, yeah, very young, and.

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I believe they were both each other's first love. While

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Brian focused on his career with the Westfield Police Department,

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Amy stayed home to raise the kids. She loved being

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a stay at home mom. She considered it the best

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job in the world. At some point, she did go

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back to work part time, working for a financial advisor

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for just a few hours every week. Brian and Amy

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were both deeply religious and involved in their congregation, the

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Wyban Union Church, which was just a three minute walk

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from the house that they lived in At the time

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of Amy's death, the church was active, with members going

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on missions both locally and internationally. Brian was a deacon

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at the church and regularly went on missions, for example,

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to help build wells in Mexico. He also volunteered at

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a local soup kitchen to provide meals for people in need,

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and he would represent law enforcement in community outreach efforts.

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In addition to being active in the church, Amy volunteered

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at the Cancer House of Hope. In her obituary, Amy

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was described as a quote kind, loving, selfless woman, bringing

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a ray of sunshine, full of peace, love and joy

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to all who knew or needed her. A passionate wife

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and mother, she was a lover of family, nature, gardening, hiking, kayaking,

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and bicycling, and an avid volunteer, happiest working behind the

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scenes in her community and church, with unwavering faith in

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her God and Savior. In the year two thousand, Brian

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and Amy bought a two hundred year old farmhouse on

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seven acres in the rural Wiban neighborhood of Westfield. Amy

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loved looking out on the beautiful wooded property with the

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picturesque red barn outback. She told friends that She was

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happy knowing that this was where she and Brian were

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going to spend the rest of their lives, but living

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in a two hundred year old farmhouse presents some big

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challenges with the constant upkeep and maintenance required. By the

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spring of twenty eighteen, as Brian, now fifty four, was

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planning his retirement from the Westfield Police Force, he wasn't

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sure that he wanted to spend all this time fixing

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and maintaining everything that the old house would need. It

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had become a source of contention between the couple. I

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can imagine, yeah, I can too.

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I mean, our house is nic a very nice house.

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It's newer and still there's always something right. But having

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a two hundred year old house, it must be just overwhelming,

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constantly wanting to update and yeah, definished.

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And I've looked at the house on Zillow pictures and

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it really is a beautiful property. It's a really nice house.

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It seems like a great location. But yeah, I'm sure

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it's a ton of work. On Monday, May seventh, the

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day before she died, Amy left work and her employer,

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Janet Porter, said see you next Monday. Amy replied the

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same way she always did Lord Willing and the Creek

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Don't Rise, which is a reference to a Johnny Cash song,

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Don't Know That song. Janet said that Amy seemed perfectly

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fine and had a smile on her face as usual.

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That night, Amy worked on a gift that she was

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making for a baby shower that she was planning to

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attend the coming weekend. It was a step stool with

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different animals painted on each side. She texted her daughter

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a picture of it, asking for advice on one of

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the pictures. Her daughter replied and said it was adorable,

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and I've seen the pictures and it really was adorable.

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The next morning, Tuesday, May eighth, twenty eighteen, Brian went

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to work as usual. Around eleven Am Amy's brother, Eric

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Hanson came by. He was a big disc golf enthusiast,

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and there happened to be a disc golf course right

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behind the Fanian's home, so Eric would come by a

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lot about three times a week on average and park

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at Brian and Amy's house. He stepped in to say

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hi to his sister, who who was home alone, before

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heading over to the course. Eric later said they talked

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about the good weather that was heading their way. Amy

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seemed like her usual happy self. Soon after, Amy took

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a short drive over to their daughter Victoria's house to

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let her dog out and turn on her slow cooker

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for her. She got back home a little before noon.

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In the meantime, Brian left work around eleven forty five

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to come home for lunch, as he often did. He

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arrived just a few minutes after Amy did peanut butter

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and jelly sandwiches around the menu. Grown ups eat peanut

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I eat peanut b and all the time.

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You don't as mine, Not all the time, but yeah, occasionally, Okay.

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A little side note, because Cosmo would only eat tuna juice,

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that was the only pant could get.

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Him to eat, We've been eating a lot of.

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Tuna fish, a lot of tune. When Brian got home,

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00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:50.960
he said that he and Amy continued an argument that

239
00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:54.639
had started the previous night. The argument had gotten heated,

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00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:57.320
and they picked up right where they left off. The

241
00:11:57.480 --> 00:12:00.200
argument was about a few things, but mostly at boil

242
00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:02.240
down to what the couple wanted their life to look

243
00:12:02.360 --> 00:12:05.320
like after Brian's retirement from the police force.

244
00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:10.039
So his retirement was within a year. Lest year.

245
00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:13.279
Amy loved their two hundred year old farmhouse, but Brian

246
00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:15.840
didn't look forward to spending his retirement trying to keep

247
00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:18.559
up with the work that it required. He wanted to

248
00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:22.320
consider moving. Brian wanted to travel, while Amy was more

249
00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:25.399
of a homebody. Their dog was getting old and most

250
00:12:25.480 --> 00:12:28.720
likely didn't have much longer to live. Amy couldn't imagine

251
00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:31.879
life without a dog, she said, a house without pets

252
00:12:31.960 --> 00:12:35.240
was essentially dead to her. Well, Brian wanted to treat

253
00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:38.840
them and felt that another dog would tie them down. Then,

254
00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:41.080
to top it off, Amy told him during lunch that

255
00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:44.039
she had committed them to attend a play that a

256
00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:47.279
family member would be performing in. It happened to be

257
00:12:47.320 --> 00:12:49.639
on a day that Brian had been planning to attend

258
00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:53.600
a disc golf tournament. Brian wasn't happy that Amy had

259
00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:57.159
committed him to the play without asking him first. The

260
00:12:57.320 --> 00:13:00.440
argument heated up again, with Brian later saying that Amy

261
00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:03.480
was a nine out of ten on the anger scale.

262
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At some point during the argument and while they were

263
00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:10.159
making lunch, Brian needed to use the restroom, so he

264
00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:13.120
took his forty five caliber Smith and Weston pistol out

265
00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:15.440
of his holster and set it on the hutch in

266
00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:18.639
the dining room. When he came out, he saw Amy

267
00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:20.679
with a gun in her hand, pointing it at the

268
00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:23.919
right side of her head. She said something like quote,

269
00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:27.879
obviously you don't want me around anymore, Bryan said. At

270
00:13:27.879 --> 00:13:29.960
this point he was about four or five feet away

271
00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:32.879
from Amy. He lunged toward her to try and grab

272
00:13:32.919 --> 00:13:35.519
the gun and stop her from pulling the trigger, but

273
00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:37.519
as he got closed, the gun went off and Amy

274
00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:40.720
dropped to the floor. According to Brian, it all happened

275
00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:44.360
so fast he barely had time to react. Ryan called

276
00:13:44.360 --> 00:13:46.759
out for Amy's brother, Eric, who had just finished playing

277
00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:50.000
disc golf behind their house. Eric said he heard Brian's

278
00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:53.240
voice calling out to him, crying and upset. Then Brian

279
00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:55.120
called nine one one, nine on.

280
00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:55.799
One to sign the corder.

281
00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:59.240
What's the actress to your emergency? Hi, Brian Saniel at

282
00:13:59.240 --> 00:14:01.080
a northros sh.

283
00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:09.559
She's gone, okay, are you sure?

284
00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:13.080
Yes? All right, We'll get them right out there, Brian, Okay.

285
00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:16.679
Bye. When Eric came into the house, he saw Amy

286
00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:18.919
lying on the dining room floor in a pull of blood.

287
00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:23.720
Brian was holding Amy's hands in his own. Amy shot herself,

288
00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:26.240
Brian said to Eric, and also told him they had

289
00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:30.279
been having an intense argument. Eric tried to console him, saying, quote,

290
00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:33.440
it's not your fault over and over again. He described

291
00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:37.879
Brian's demeanor as extremely upset, distraught, and crying while saying

292
00:14:38.279 --> 00:14:42.080
she's gone over and over again. While waiting for the police,

293
00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:44.000
Eric said he picked up one of the peanut butter

294
00:14:44.039 --> 00:14:47.000
and jelly sandwiches that had fallen to the floor, and

295
00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:50.080
also took the Fanian's dog away from the kitchen. At

296
00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:52.840
some point, Eric noticed the gun lying on the floor

297
00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:56.559
beside Amy's hip. Worried that Brian might harm himself. Eric

298
00:14:56.600 --> 00:14:58.840
picked up the gun and set it on the kitchen table.

299
00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:02.519
Then police were arriving. Eric picked it up again and

300
00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:06.240
started taking it outside. The officers arriving on the scene

301
00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:08.840
instructed him to put the gun down, so he said

302
00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:11.840
it on the front porch. At some point, Brian asked

303
00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:14.159
his brother in law what happened to the gun. When

304
00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:16.399
Eric said that he had moved it, Brian told him

305
00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:19.600
he probably shouldn't have done that. Brian was, after all,

306
00:15:19.639 --> 00:15:23.080
a detective with a lot of experience processing evidence in

307
00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:23.879
crime scenes.

308
00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:26.200
I think the fact that he moved it just goes

309
00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:30.399
to show you that Eric Amy's brother at least didn't

310
00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:32.919
think anything other than the fact that she had shot herself.

311
00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:35.399
At least in that moment, he had no other thought,

312
00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:38.960
and so he wasn't concerned about painting evidence or anything

313
00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:39.399
like that.

314
00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:44.039
He'd never watched an episode of CSI or Law and Order.

315
00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:46.279
You never touch anything in the crime scene.

316
00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:48.039
Maybe not, but you know, he didn't think it was

317
00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:48.639
a crime scene.

318
00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:52.240
I think, Okay, so Eric had just finished playing disc golf,

319
00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:54.600
right had he come into the house yet or.

320
00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:56.840
I don't believe so. I wasn't able to see a

321
00:15:56.840 --> 00:15:59.919
lot of detail. It seems really coincidental that he happened

322
00:15:59.919 --> 00:16:02.960
to be done and happened to be right there when

323
00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:06.759
Amy was shot because he heard he heard Brian call

324
00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:09.320
him out, So I don't know.

325
00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:11.879
Exactly the situation, and saw him approaching the house.

326
00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:13.720
Maybe that could be because if he was.

327
00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:16.360
Just like out in the yard, like practicing or packing

328
00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:19.919
up his stuff. I wouldn't think that she wouldn't have

329
00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:22.480
shot herself then, or Brian wouldn't have shot her knowing

330
00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:25.879
that he was on the property. But you had said

331
00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:29.159
the property. It was a large property, so essentially the

332
00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:32.360
brother could have been far away and not heard the

333
00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:32.919
gun shot.

334
00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:34.480
Yeah, that's true.

335
00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:37.799
The first detectives on the scene were from the Westfield

336
00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:42.240
Police Department, where Brian worked. This included Mike McCabe, senior

337
00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:45.440
captain of the Westfield Police Department who would later get

338
00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:49.200
elected as to Westfield's mayor in twenty twenty one, and

339
00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:54.399
also Police Chief John Camarata. Okay, so we can already

340
00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:55.960
see a conflict of interest, right.

341
00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:58.039
I think you'll see it get cleared up pretty quick,

342
00:16:58.519 --> 00:16:59.399
but maybe a little bit.

343
00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:01.720
N asked mc cabe if it was okay to go

344
00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:04.839
wash his hands, which were covered in Amy's blood, and

345
00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:08.440
McCabe said he could. When Police Chief Camerata arrived on

346
00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:10.519
the scene, he said that Brian was sitting with his

347
00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:14.400
face buried in his hands, sobbing and rocking back and forth.

348
00:17:14.720 --> 00:17:18.160
At other times he was just staring straight ahead, as

349
00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:21.279
if in shock. The officers on the scene were friends

350
00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:24.720
and colleagues of Brian's. While they might not have suspected

351
00:17:24.759 --> 00:17:28.519
anything other than suicide, they quickly realized that a thorough

352
00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:32.559
investigation would be required and that it had to be independent,

353
00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:37.079
so they immediately called the Massachusetts State Police, who arrived

354
00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:41.759
on the scene around one pm. Oh interesting, now we

355
00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:44.640
know that the Massachusetts State Police.

356
00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:46.400
Well, what year is this, twenty eighteen?

357
00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:49.400
Okay, were they were there scandals at that time?

358
00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:51.799
I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing yes.

359
00:17:53.319 --> 00:17:56.799
To avoid possible conflict of interest, it was decided right

360
00:17:56.839 --> 00:17:59.799
away that the state police would be the sole investigators

361
00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:02.319
on the case. Very interesting.

362
00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:04.880
Yeah, so, I think the local Westfield police handled it well,

363
00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:08.519
except for the fact that McKay let him wash his hands.

364
00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:11.160
That was definitely a mistake that shouldn't have happened. But

365
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:14.599
other than that, they handled it well by immediately calling

366
00:18:14.599 --> 00:18:16.599
in the state police and saying we're not going to

367
00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:17.960
be part of the investigation at all.

368
00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:22.480
Well, this begs the question, can you remove gunshot residue

369
00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:24.200
from your hands with soap and water?

370
00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:27.240
We are going to get so into gunshot.

371
00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:32.079
Residue, and I believe when one washing would not remove

372
00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:34.759
But okay, let's not put the curb before this.

373
00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:39.359
Let's talk about the crime scene. The dining room was

374
00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:42.440
in disarray, partly because either Brian or his brother in

375
00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:44.720
law Eric had moved chairs out of the way to

376
00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:48.480
make space for the first responders. Amy was lying on

377
00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:50.720
her back on the floor of the dining room between

378
00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:53.680
the table and the hutch. Her hands folded across her

379
00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:56.880
stomach where Brian had been holding them. The spent shell

380
00:18:56.920 --> 00:18:59.920
casing was on the floor. The dining room table was

381
00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:02.720
cluttered with stuff. There was a plate with an intact

382
00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:05.960
peanut butter and jelly sandwich, another empty plate across from

383
00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:09.559
it with some blood smeared on it, some newspapers, mail

384
00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:12.880
and other paperwork, a bag of chips, a police radio,

385
00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:16.119
and a pair of glasses. Between the dining room and

386
00:19:16.119 --> 00:19:18.559
the breezeway, there was a window that had some blood

387
00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:21.519
spatter on the window frame. The police were able to

388
00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:24.440
find the bullet that had killed Amy. It had traveled

389
00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:27.720
through her head, out into the enclosed breezeway adjacent to

390
00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:30.160
the dining room, and then stopped when it hit a

391
00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:33.880
dresser in the breezeway. The state police asked Brian to

392
00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:37.079
accompany them to the State Police barracks fifteen minutes away

393
00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:40.000
in the city of Russell to take his statement. He

394
00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:42.200
told them about taking his gun off to use the

395
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:45.000
bathroom and coming out to see Amy holding the gun.

396
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:48.640
The gun pointed up to the right side of her head,

397
00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:52.680
where I think she said, I guess you don't want

398
00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:54.279
me around, or you don't want to be around me?

399
00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:58.240
She seated, or no, she's a shoe standing.

400
00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:02.559
Note that Brian said she was standing, and he seemed

401
00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:05.440
pretty certain about it, right, Yeah, put a pin in

402
00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:08.680
that one. He used his right hand and pointer finger

403
00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:11.039
to indicate how Amy was holding the gun up to

404
00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:15.279
her right temple. Brian said, quote, just she snapped, the

405
00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:17.880
gun just exploded. It was just so quick. She didn't

406
00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:21.920
hesitate at all unquote. The detectives asked if Amy had

407
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:25.480
any history of depression or mental illness. Brian told them

408
00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:28.319
that several years ago she had suffered from anxiety and

409
00:20:28.480 --> 00:20:30.519
was on medication for a period of time, but that

410
00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:33.119
was it. He stressed to them that she had a

411
00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:36.119
bad temper and that most people wouldn't know it. He

412
00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:37.920
was the only one who seemed to bring it out

413
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:41.119
of her. Before letting Brian go, they asked him if

414
00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:44.359
there were any quote female friends unquote in his life

415
00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:48.039
that they should know about. Brian said, yes, there was

416
00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:50.960
a woman named Corey Knowles who lived nearly an hour

417
00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:55.079
away in Kittsfield. That's so predictable, isn't it really?

418
00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:58.359
I mean, oh, you're the last good man.

419
00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:03.359
Sure's a few others. Corey lived nearly an hour away

420
00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:06.039
in Pittsfield, and he said that he had recently developed

421
00:21:06.039 --> 00:21:08.599
a close friendship with her. They had met during a

422
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:11.720
mission trip to Mexico about six months ago in November

423
00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:15.240
twenty seventeen. He said they were friends and there was

424
00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:18.519
some flirting that had developed between them over time, but

425
00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:21.000
as Brian put it, it was not a friends with

426
00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:24.880
benefits type of thing. Investigators asked Brian if he would

427
00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:27.960
turn over his phone, and he agreed. As he gave

428
00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:30.200
it to them, he said, quote, You're going to see

429
00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:32.359
some things on there, but it isn't what it appears

430
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:36.240
to be. Unquote. Can you imagine the state police detectives

431
00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:40.480
were probably super intrigued to check out his phone after

432
00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:41.039
that comment.

433
00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:43.599
I say this out the time, but it's I'm I'm

434
00:21:43.640 --> 00:21:46.839
the most boring person. I don't have anything silicious on

435
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:49.400
my phone, but I would never want to turn my

436
00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:51.799
phone away same, I mean over to police.

437
00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:53.839
What the police are the same?

438
00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:54.640
What do you mean? Same?

439
00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:57.000
Same? I have nothing silicious on my phone, but I

440
00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:59.519
would not want to turn it over that turn.

441
00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:02.759
It over to me later. I'm just kidding. I respect

442
00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:03.400
your privacy.

443
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:06.640
What the police found was a treasure trove of deleted

444
00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:10.079
text messages between Brian and Corey that told a different

445
00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:12.599
story than the just good friends who are a little

446
00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:16.240
flirty version that Brian had shared. They saw that things

447
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:19.720
had indeed started out casual and friendly shortly after the

448
00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:22.640
mission trip near the end of twenty seventeen, but then

449
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:25.799
the number and the tone escalated over the coming months.

450
00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:30.039
Brian and Corey exchanged twenty three text messages in December

451
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:33.400
one hundred and fifteen, in January two hundred and sixty two,

452
00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:36.720
in February six hundred and ninety four, in March one

453
00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:40.480
thousand seventy five, in April, and three hundred and seventy

454
00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:43.119
one in the seven days of May before Amy's death.

455
00:22:43.279 --> 00:22:44.880
That's an interesting grasp.

456
00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:47.279
Yes, it really is. So let's do a little true

457
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:50.759
crime theater and read some of the text exchanges. Just

458
00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:55.000
a warning, this might get a little spicy. Let's start.

459
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:56.720
You can play the part of Corey and I will

460
00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:57.920
play the part of Brian.

461
00:22:58.000 --> 00:22:59.200
Maybe the girl, I don't know.

462
00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:03.000
Let's start with it. These texts were from April twentieth.

463
00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:06.359
In my arms is my happy place. I want you,

464
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:07.920
I need you, I love you.

465
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:10.400
I feel the same way. I want you so much,

466
00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:13.200
but it's frightening to me. And April twenty.

467
00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:17.680
Third, I can feel your lips on mine. Love that memory.

468
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:20.519
I'm thinking of the one with your legs around my waist.

469
00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:24.799
Oh my May fourth, what I wouldn't do for one

470
00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:26.759
of those big wrap me tight hugs.

471
00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:31.279
Hmmm, m to feel your hot breath on my skin.

472
00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:34.079
Have I told you that I love being your angel?

473
00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:36.079
I swear God made you for me.

474
00:23:36.920 --> 00:23:39.400
I so need to hear your voice. I love you.

475
00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:43.200
Amy is still being attentive and clingy, and then later

476
00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:46.000
in the day he texted back, thank you for being you,

477
00:23:46.359 --> 00:23:48.559
the most amazing woman that I have ever known.

478
00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:52.079
May fifth, my heart belongs to you.

479
00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:56.160
I would be lost without you. For smiley face emojis,

480
00:23:56.680 --> 00:23:58.960
I am eternally yours. I love you, Corey.

481
00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:00.599
I love you so much, Brian.

482
00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:04.720
Then May seventh, the day before Amy's death, good night,

483
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:07.480
my love. I hope you have wonderful dreams of amazing

484
00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:11.319
days and nights to come. For smiley face emojis, good.

485
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:13.519
Night, my love. I will dream of you and all

486
00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:15.640
that the future holds for us.

487
00:24:16.039 --> 00:24:18.559
Then May eighth, the morning of Amy's death, while Brian

488
00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:19.519
was still at work.

489
00:24:20.039 --> 00:24:21.359
When can I hold you again?

490
00:24:21.880 --> 00:24:26.000
Not soon enough, turning into a very long morning. Then,

491
00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:29.359
on May eight, at twelve forty seven pm, while Amy's

492
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:32.000
body was still on the dining room floor, and before

493
00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:34.720
the state police showed up, and even before he called

494
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:36.920
his children to let them know their mother was gone,

495
00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:40.880
Brian texted Corey quote, please don't call her text for

496
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:43.920
a while. I'll call when I can. Really bad. Pray

497
00:24:43.960 --> 00:24:47.759
for my family, please unquote. It was clear to the

498
00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:50.279
state police that they would need to question Brian further

499
00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:54.160
about his relationship with Corey Knowles, but before they did that,

500
00:24:54.319 --> 00:24:57.319
they wanted to get the autopsy report and other forensic

501
00:24:57.359 --> 00:24:58.240
testing results.

502
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:00.319
Okay, I'm relieved because I thought you were to make

503
00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:03.799
me read one thy seventy four texts. But those text meshes,

504
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:07.000
there's a copy and pasted from our conversation when you

505
00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:07.680
were in Europe.

506
00:25:08.279 --> 00:25:11.799
Yet I love you so much. I can't wait. Told

507
00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:17.039
you in my arms again. We'll be back after a break.

508
00:25:24.319 --> 00:25:27.759
While the medical examiner ultimately listed Amy's manner of death

509
00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:30.920
as undetermined, the autopsy did not look good for Brian.

510
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:34.759
The medical examiner determined that the gunshot entrance wound was

511
00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:38.519
not consistent with a self inflicted gunshot. There was no

512
00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:42.240
gunpowder residue or stippling, the tattooing of the skin that

513
00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:44.599
occurs when a gun is fired close to the skin.

514
00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:47.680
The way the skin was torn around the wound also

515
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:51.000
indicated to the medical examiner that the gun had been

516
00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:54.759
further away than if Amy had fired the gun herself.

517
00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:58.559
There was an estella pattern, which is basically a star

518
00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:01.359
shaped wound that typically occurs when a gun is fired

519
00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:04.799
into the head at a very close range. The other

520
00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:07.720
key thing they looked at was the trajectory of the bullet.

521
00:26:08.039 --> 00:26:10.960
The bullet entered Amy's head about an inch or so

522
00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:14.400
above her right ear. We've seen some reports that said

523
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:17.160
it entered just above the ear and an inch or

524
00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:20.400
two back, and other reports that said it was directly

525
00:26:20.440 --> 00:26:24.039
above the ear. In either case, though, the bullet exited

526
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:27.039
Amy's left cheek, which means that the bullet must have

527
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:31.240
traveled slightly back to front and slightly downward. If you

528
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:33.680
put one finger an inch or two above your right

529
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:37.160
ear and the other just below your left cheekbone, it

530
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:40.440
can help you visualize the direction it took. Thank you

531
00:26:40.519 --> 00:26:46.119
for the okay, Wow, then if you think about holding

532
00:26:46.119 --> 00:26:48.519
a gun and shooting it at that angle, you can

533
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:50.559
see that it would not be a natural way of

534
00:26:50.599 --> 00:26:54.119
shooting yourself. In fact, you might find it difficult or

535
00:26:54.200 --> 00:26:57.559
even impossible to shoot yourself at that angle because it's

536
00:26:57.559 --> 00:27:01.160
so pointed downward or kind of slanty, right exactly.

537
00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:02.480
I mean, because.

538
00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:04.519
Normally you would probably just go straight.

539
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:07.319
Yeah, or slightly upward, right, if you're holding the gun

540
00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:09.480
at the side of your head. I think it's really

541
00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:13.440
weird though, that the medical examiner, given everything you just

542
00:27:13.480 --> 00:27:16.240
went through, that they listed the manner of death as

543
00:27:16.359 --> 00:27:19.880
undetermined instead of homicide. And I'm not a medical examiner.

544
00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:22.319
I don't know how they make these decisions, but it

545
00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:24.200
seems to me that it would be like, all these

546
00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:27.480
conclusions are that none of this is consistent with a

547
00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:31.039
self inflicted gunshot wound, and yet why not have the

548
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:32.319
manner of death be homicide?

549
00:27:32.359 --> 00:27:34.319
Then at the end of the day, a lot of

550
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:39.920
times medical examiners are making these It's kind of an opinion, right.

551
00:27:40.759 --> 00:27:43.440
The data you would hope to be more objective, but

552
00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:47.680
it is very subjective, and it is often the opinion

553
00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:48.599
of just one person.

554
00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:51.480
Yeah, for sure, But I just think it left the door.

555
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:54.599
It leaves the door open for Brian's defense to basically say, Look,

556
00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:57.480
the medical examiner couldn't even say that it was homicide,

557
00:27:57.559 --> 00:28:00.000
so how could you the jury say that.

558
00:28:01.319 --> 00:28:04.160
Some of the other forensic evidence wasn't as helpful in

559
00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:08.519
building a case against Brian. Testing detected gunshot residue on

560
00:28:08.599 --> 00:28:11.400
both Brian and Amy, but this didn't really tell them

561
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:15.319
much because gunshot residue can settle on any item near

562
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:19.319
where a gun is fired, any item or human. Remember,

563
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:22.400
Brian claimed he was lunging for the gun when she fired,

564
00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:25.799
so he was right there. But if it lands on

565
00:28:25.880 --> 00:28:31.119
his hands, that's another thing. Residue can easily be transferred

566
00:28:31.160 --> 00:28:34.400
through contact, and Brian was holding Amy's hand in close

567
00:28:34.519 --> 00:28:38.559
contact with her after the shooting. Also, because Brian's boss

568
00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:41.799
allowed him to wash his hands, any testing for gunshot

569
00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:45.359
residue on his hands was not going to be super

570
00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:49.519
accurate or reliable. It would be an interesting test to

571
00:28:49.559 --> 00:28:53.400
try different soaps to see if some might be more

572
00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:56.839
successful in eliminating gunshot residue from your head.

573
00:28:56.880 --> 00:28:57.559
Would be interesting.

574
00:28:58.039 --> 00:29:01.720
Bar soap might be better than you know, pump soap

575
00:29:01.759 --> 00:29:02.680
that we all tend to use.

576
00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:05.440
Yeah, Yeah, we'll talk later about some of the testing

577
00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:08.680
that was done on different gunshot residues, and it is

578
00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:11.880
really interesting. One of the things I watched for this

579
00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:14.400
episode was forty eight Hours did a case on it,

580
00:29:14.920 --> 00:29:17.480
and they had an expert doing some testing of gunshot

581
00:29:17.480 --> 00:29:20.519
residue in different circumstancesn't really really fascinating, It.

582
00:29:20.599 --> 00:29:22.920
Is really interesting. I feel like you have a very

583
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:25.759
good brain. I mean, my brain's just fine, but you

584
00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:30.000
would be a really good scientist. I think maybe they

585
00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:33.559
tested Brian's gun as well, but there were no clear fingerprints.

586
00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:36.599
The gun had been handled by Amy's brother Eric after

587
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:40.119
the shooting, and it was Brian's service weapon, so even

588
00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:43.000
if they had found his fingerprints on it, it wouldn't have

589
00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:46.319
told them very much. They did find both Brian and

590
00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:49.839
Amy's DNA on the gun, along with another minor DNA

591
00:29:49.960 --> 00:29:53.839
profile that couldn't be determined, but it was most likely Eric's,

592
00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:58.279
but there wasn't enough of his DNA to be certain. Again,

593
00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:03.400
not very helpful. On May seventeenth, nine days after Amy's

594
00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:05.640
death and three days after a wake was held at

595
00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:09.440
the home of Brian's father, Brian was brought back to

596
00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:12.839
the state police barracks for further questioning. Now that he

597
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:15.799
was clearly in the sights of investigators, they had a

598
00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:19.200
tricky task ahead of them. This wasn't like interrogating a

599
00:30:19.240 --> 00:30:23.759
normal civilian. Being a detective himself, Brian knew all the

600
00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:27.079
tricks of the trade. They started out by reading Brian

601
00:30:27.160 --> 00:30:31.519
his Miranda rights. Brian was immediately on high alert, saying, quote,

602
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:34.480
the other day, you didn't do this. Has something changed.

603
00:30:35.799 --> 00:30:39.839
The detectives confronted Brian directly regarding his relationship with Corey.

604
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:43.359
They said, look, we've seen all the text messages. It

605
00:30:43.480 --> 00:30:46.160
sure looks like a lot more than just a friendship.

606
00:30:46.839 --> 00:30:50.839
Bryan said, yes, it had escalated beyond just friendship. He

607
00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:53.759
was embarrassed and ashamed about it. That's why he had

608
00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:57.319
tried to downplay it during his first interview. He swore

609
00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:00.359
that the two hadn't had sex though, just making out

610
00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:03.480
and some messing around. Not that that's even relevant, because

611
00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:06.400
if you're a lovesome, you know right. He claimed that

612
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:09.400
every time he had seen Corey, Amy knew about it,

613
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:12.240
but Amy didn't know about their romance or that they

614
00:31:12.279 --> 00:31:16.240
had kissed. He also said that his expectations for Corey

615
00:31:16.359 --> 00:31:18.480
were clear from the beginning.

616
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:21.720
Did this Corey want to take you to a different

617
00:31:21.799 --> 00:31:25.079
level with your brier or we talked about that and

618
00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:31.200
we had an understanding that as farfe Okay, okay, so

619
00:31:31.359 --> 00:31:34.240
Corey talked about it with you, or we both stop

620
00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:36.880
from the beginning, we said, okay, this is what it is.

621
00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:39.640
Just to make sure we were both.

622
00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:42.799
On the same page.

623
00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:49.599
Exactly, you know, just friends, they had Brian go over

624
00:31:49.640 --> 00:31:53.000
his story again and provide details on what exactly happened

625
00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:55.440
in the dining room on that fateful day.

626
00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:57.960
So just show me what you see though, or that

627
00:31:58.160 --> 00:32:02.000
you should demonstrate what you've seen her.

628
00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:05.119
I just saw the gun.

629
00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:05.759
Does she have it?

630
00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:08.319
Does she have it held like by the handle?

631
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:09.680
And how she holds in the hill.

632
00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:13.119
She's not a gun person, so it looks like she

633
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:18.240
was holding awkwardly. She may have, don't she may have

634
00:32:18.279 --> 00:32:19.039
even had him.

635
00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:21.720
Where pumped in her.

636
00:32:23.240 --> 00:32:25.920
Was really awkward to issue to him because she should

637
00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:27.599
not a gunners. Hmm.

638
00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:30.559
By this time, Brian must have known that his story

639
00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:33.440
wasn't adding up regarding the gun angle and bullet trajectory,

640
00:32:33.880 --> 00:32:38.079
so he kept stressing that she was holding the gun awkwardly. Also,

641
00:32:38.279 --> 00:32:41.359
whereas during the first interview, he said Amy was standing.

642
00:32:41.960 --> 00:32:44.680
This time, he wavered and said he thought she had

643
00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:48.160
been sitting. If she had been sitting and using her thumb,

644
00:32:48.559 --> 00:32:50.519
it would seem more likely that she could have held

645
00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:52.960
the gun at that angle that would result in the

646
00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:57.279
slightly downward back to front trajectory. The detectives then told

647
00:32:57.359 --> 00:32:59.960
Brian straight up that there was a problem with his story.

648
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:03.000
There was no indication that she had a gun close

649
00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:06.160
to her head. There was no stippling on her at all.

650
00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:09.400
I mean, there's no doubt she get was shot. But

651
00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:16.599
the question is from with distance? It was right free

652
00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:22.240
from there. I'm telling you, yeah. I mean I have

653
00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:24.839
to make sure of this here, Brian, Brads.

654
00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:26.200
Do what you need to, But I'm telling you it

655
00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:29.680
was right there. How could that not leave the evidence?

656
00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:30.359
I don't know.

657
00:33:32.119 --> 00:33:33.519
That's why I'm asking you.

658
00:33:35.240 --> 00:33:36.839
All I can tell you is what I saw. And

659
00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:40.319
the gun was right there, right pressed up against her.

660
00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:42.279
I don't know if it was contact, but it was

661
00:33:42.440 --> 00:33:42.880
right there.

662
00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:46.200
Ryan was steadfast in his denial.

663
00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:49.359
So the other options, you got pissed in your foot

664
00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:51.279
or a few feet away and you shot her, diet

665
00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:52.160
she's sitting.

666
00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:53.359
He didn't even have a sandwich.

667
00:33:53.480 --> 00:33:56.240
Didn't happen, didn't happen, did not happen.

668
00:33:57.839 --> 00:33:59.160
She picked up the gun and.

669
00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:01.400
She shut herself and I tried to stop her, and

670
00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:06.519
I couldn't. I love the interrogation here because it's not

671
00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:09.199
very often you hear an interrogation where they're just directly

672
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:12.440
confronting him, like right, and that was definitely the case here.

673
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:13.519
So it was interesting to hear.

674
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:16.480
Well they let him go what the state police were

675
00:34:16.519 --> 00:34:20.480
becoming more and more convinced that Brian was responsible for

676
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:21.360
Amy's death.

677
00:34:21.880 --> 00:34:24.960
Same On the same day that they interviewed Brian for

678
00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:29.000
the second time, detectives also interviewed Corey Knowles. Corey was

679
00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:32.079
forty eight years old on her second marriage, a grandmother,

680
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:35.159
and a member of her church's choir. She was very

681
00:34:35.239 --> 00:34:37.719
forthcoming and fleshed out the story that was told by

682
00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:40.760
the text messages. When she and Brian met on the

683
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:43.480
mission to Mexico. She was married but going through a

684
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:46.760
tough time. Brian helped her work through her feelings about

685
00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:49.920
her marriage. He was easy to talk to and supportive.

686
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:52.480
He didn't tell her what she should do, He just

687
00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:57.400
listened and gave her positive affirmations. In January, twenty eighteen,

688
00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:00.239
Corey came to the Fanian's church for a slide show

689
00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:04.039
presentation about the mission trip. She sat with Brian and Amy,

690
00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:06.559
and afterwards she went to lunch with them along with

691
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:10.000
their two children. It was all very above board and friendly.

692
00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:14.039
Over time, as Corey shared more with Brian about her

693
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:18.159
troubled marriage, he became a confidant, and eventually the relationship

694
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:22.360
became flirtatious. They started talking on the phone frequently when

695
00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:25.719
they were able to, and on March thirtieth, Brian told

696
00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:27.840
Corey over the phone that he was in love with her.

697
00:35:28.840 --> 00:35:32.199
On April sixteenth, Corey came over to Brian and Amy's house,

698
00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:34.400
where they had planned to meet before leaving to do

699
00:35:34.519 --> 00:35:38.360
some volunteer work together. Amy wasn't home yet, and Brian

700
00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:41.119
and Corey shared their first kiss in the kitchen of

701
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:45.960
Brian and Amy's home. Amy arrived home soon after. Brian

702
00:35:46.039 --> 00:35:48.440
and Corey then took the Fanian's dog for a walk.

703
00:35:48.679 --> 00:35:52.239
WHOA, it's a very strange situation family dog.

704
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:55.039
Yes. Amy opted out of taking the dog for a

705
00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:57.719
walk because it was starting to rain, and Brian and

706
00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:00.000
Corey kissed some more during their walk in the world

707
00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:04.320
Woods Two days later, on the eighteenth, Brian texted Corey

708
00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:06.519
asking for a photo of her that he could keep

709
00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:09.840
on his work computer. Corey asked if Amy was okay

710
00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:13.119
with that. Brian said, no one else sees his work email.

711
00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:17.239
Later that day, Brian texted Corey saying they were reaching

712
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:21.039
the quote possibility of a boundary we can't cross unquote.

713
00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:24.559
She replied, saying that she was quote trying not to

714
00:36:25.159 --> 00:36:29.559
cross boundaries. Brian later replied, quote the heart wants what

715
00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:32.920
the heart wants, even if it can't have it. On

716
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:35.880
April twentieth, Corey and Brian met in an outlet mall

717
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:39.079
not far from Corey's house. They did some shopping, and

718
00:36:39.159 --> 00:36:41.800
then they made out in her car. It seemed like

719
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:44.360
things were starting to get serious by this time, because

720
00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:47.800
Corey messaged Brian later that day quote I don't want

721
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:50.119
to scare you, but I can't imagine life without you.

722
00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:52.880
I hope we can be together forever unquote.

723
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:57.039
And Corey was friends with Amy or just acquaint acquaintances.

724
00:36:57.119 --> 00:37:00.360
I think she was acquaintances only because she and had

725
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:02.800
gone on this mission together, and she had come to

726
00:37:02.840 --> 00:37:05.320
their church and come to their house, so I think

727
00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:07.679
she knew Amy, but I don't think they were friends.

728
00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:11.480
A few days after Corey sent Brian that text message

729
00:37:11.559 --> 00:37:14.760
saying she hoped they could be together forever, she told

730
00:37:14.840 --> 00:37:17.039
Brian that she had made a decision that she was

731
00:37:17.079 --> 00:37:20.119
going to leave her husband, not necessarily because of Brian,

732
00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:23.559
but the marriage just was not working. The pair next

733
00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:26.320
met on April thirtieth at a park in Westfield, where

734
00:37:26.360 --> 00:37:29.559
they again messed around in Corey's truck. Things got hot

735
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:32.480
and heavy, but she supported Brian's story that they hadn't

736
00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:35.400
actually had sex. She said that Brian told her he

737
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:37.960
couldn't perform because he was still married to Amy and

738
00:37:38.039 --> 00:37:41.159
felt guilty. This was the last time they saw each

739
00:37:41.199 --> 00:37:44.519
other before Amy's death eight days later. The next time

740
00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:47.000
they saw each other was at Amy's wake, which was

741
00:37:47.079 --> 00:37:50.039
held at the home of Brian's father, six days after

742
00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:53.199
Amy died. Corey said that at some point she and

743
00:37:53.320 --> 00:37:55.880
Brian snuck down to the basement to kiss while the

744
00:37:55.960 --> 00:38:01.719
other guests were upstairs. Really classy move mad. A week

745
00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:04.920
after their second interview with Brian, detectives obtained a search

746
00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:07.840
warrant for his home. When the officers showed up at

747
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:10.199
his door, Brian asked if they were there to arrest him.

748
00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:13.599
They said no, and then he asked whether they thought

749
00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:17.320
he did it. They didn't answer that one. During the search,

750
00:38:17.440 --> 00:38:20.800
they took some additional measurements to further analyze the trajectory

751
00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:24.239
of the bullet that killed Amy. They also confiscated Brian's

752
00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:27.719
electronic devices, and at the same time, his work computer

753
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:29.320
was taken for analysis.

754
00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:33.280
So Corey isn't suspicious about the circumstances of Amy's death.

755
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:36.000
I don't know whether she was suspicious or not.

756
00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:39.480
She's making out with him at Amy's wake.

757
00:38:39.639 --> 00:38:41.599
Yeah, you would think you probably wouldn't do that if

758
00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:43.559
you thought this guy just killed his wife. So yeah,

759
00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:46.719
that's a pretty good assumption. As summer rolled around, the

760
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:49.840
state police investigators clearly had Brian in their sights, but

761
00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:52.760
they were taking their time to methodically build their case

762
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:55.679
and ensure that it was as strong as possible before

763
00:38:55.719 --> 00:38:58.880
bringing it to the grand jury. In the meantime, Corey

764
00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:02.119
decided to break up with Brian. We mentioned earlier that

765
00:39:02.199 --> 00:39:05.360
Corey had decided to leave her husband, and she came

766
00:39:05.400 --> 00:39:07.360
to the conclusion that she needed to go through the

767
00:39:07.400 --> 00:39:10.920
process by herself. Now that's what she said. I wonder

768
00:39:11.159 --> 00:39:13.239
if maybe in her heart of hearts, she came to

769
00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:17.280
the conclusion that she maybe did think that Brian killed Amy.

770
00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:21.079
She watched a couple episodes of Dateline. Right, wait a minute, But.

771
00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:23.639
In any case, she told Brian it was over, and

772
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:26.440
Brian seemed to take it very well, which seems a

773
00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:30.039
little bit surprising given how hot and heavy their romance was.

774
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:33.599
It's surprising both that Corey dumped Brian, but also that

775
00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:35.719
he took it so well. But I guess they both

776
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:39.320
had other things on their minds. Brian also started sending

777
00:39:39.400 --> 00:39:42.960
things to investigators and the medical examiner. It appeared like

778
00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:45.440
he was trying to be helpful, but he was clearly

779
00:39:45.559 --> 00:39:48.599
highlighting things to try and support his assertion that Amy

780
00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:51.639
had taken her own life. For example, he sent a

781
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:55.760
list of medications Amy had been taking, mostly vitamins and supplements,

782
00:39:56.320 --> 00:39:58.159
but he was sure to point out that she suffered

783
00:39:58.199 --> 00:40:01.719
from IBS and that it was trick by anxiety and depression.

784
00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:05.559
He also sent copies of specific pages of her journal,

785
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:09.440
highlighting passages where she seemed to be struggling or depressed.

786
00:40:10.519 --> 00:40:13.800
When the analysis of Brian's work and home devices came back,

787
00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:17.199
it added to the mounting pile of evidence against Brian.

788
00:40:18.039 --> 00:40:21.360
There were quite a few incriminating searches, websites visited, and

789
00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:25.360
videos viewed, all starting after his affair with Corey had

790
00:40:25.400 --> 00:40:28.719
heated up. Some of the searches and sights indicated the

791
00:40:28.840 --> 00:40:32.119
guilt he must have been experiencing as his feelings for

792
00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:35.960
Corey grew. He searched quote you have to have sex

793
00:40:36.039 --> 00:40:38.840
to have an affair and visited a site with an

794
00:40:38.920 --> 00:40:44.119
article headlined emotional infidelity worse than an affair. He must

795
00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:46.679
have been weighing the pros and cons of divorcing amy

796
00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:50.880
at one point, because he googled how divorce affects pension

797
00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:55.880
rights calculating alimony in Massachusetts and he pulled up an

798
00:40:55.960 --> 00:41:01.239
article titled Tough Realities of Divorce. Brian also searched for

799
00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:05.519
ampowerments at one point. It appeared that he was thinking

800
00:41:05.559 --> 00:41:09.880
about different ways someone might come to harm. Some searches

801
00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:14.480
and sights he visited included common and dangerous poisons, which

802
00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:20.119
drug causes the most deaths each year, sixteen common household

803
00:41:20.199 --> 00:41:24.840
items that could kill you, carbon monoxide, the invisible killer,

804
00:41:25.559 --> 00:41:31.039
household poisons, and common prescription overdoses. At this point, we

805
00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:34.519
need to remind you that Brian is a detective. Yeah, true,

806
00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:39.119
and he should have known better. Twelve days before Amy's death,

807
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:42.800
Brian seemed to develop an interest in gunshot residue. He

808
00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:46.400
watched a video on YouTube called what gunshot residue test

809
00:41:46.639 --> 00:41:49.159
tells Us, looked up the word stipling.

810
00:41:49.719 --> 00:41:51.639
I wish you would think as a cop, he would

811
00:41:51.800 --> 00:41:54.039
probably know what that meant already, right, and.

812
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:57.480
He made some other searches related to gunshot residue testing.

813
00:41:58.039 --> 00:42:00.480
He also researched how the manner of death can be

814
00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:03.679
determined by the distance of a gun muzzle from its target.

815
00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:07.239
These searches were all from his work computer, and one

816
00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:09.440
could argue that that was part of his job as

817
00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:13.639
a cop. Well, Brian wasn't working on any cases during

818
00:42:13.719 --> 00:42:17.800
that time where gunshot residue might have been involved. The

819
00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:20.639
day before Amy died, he searched for how to delete

820
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:25.519
text messages and contexts permanently from his phone. The morning

821
00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:27.719
of her death, he used his work computer to search

822
00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:32.039
which Massachusetts State Police units would respond and do forensic

823
00:42:32.199 --> 00:42:35.639
testing at a crime scene. That's there's a lot of

824
00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:42.320
damn search that is, yes, yes, wow, I mean that's

825
00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:46.000
more than circumstantial evidence to me, Like we talked about

826
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:49.920
a lot, Like circumstantial evidence is evidence, and that's a

827
00:42:50.199 --> 00:42:52.079
lot of circumstantial evidence.

828
00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:54.559
Yeah. Wow, completely, And like you said earlier, just the

829
00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:57.079
fact that he is a cop and he did all

830
00:42:57.159 --> 00:42:59.880
these searches, it just kind of boggles the mind.

831
00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:00.880
Yeah.

832
00:43:02.119 --> 00:43:04.599
While the evidence against Brian was mounting, he received a

833
00:43:04.679 --> 00:43:07.960
surprising show of support in July. It came in the

834
00:43:08.039 --> 00:43:10.840
form of a letter to the district attorney, signed by

835
00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:14.639
all of Amy's siblings and her mother. The first part

836
00:43:14.679 --> 00:43:17.440
of the letter read quote, I'm writing on behalf of

837
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:21.840
the immediate and extended family of Amy Hansen Fanion. We

838
00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:25.840
wish to extend our complete and unfailing support of Brian Fanion,

839
00:43:26.199 --> 00:43:31.519
her husband, as this investigation proceeds. Unequivocally, we are certain

840
00:43:31.639 --> 00:43:34.679
Amy took her own life on May eighth, twenty eighteen,

841
00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:38.039
and thus we are certain that her husband, Brian, did

842
00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:40.320
not take her life. End quote.

843
00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:42.960
That's shocking, isn't that amazing?

844
00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:46.360
Wow. The letter goes on to say they knew the

845
00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:49.760
details of Brian and Amy's relationship and the issues they faced,

846
00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:54.000
presumably talking about the affair Brian was having with Corey

847
00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:57.280
and that those details did not affect their opinions or

848
00:43:57.400 --> 00:44:01.480
lessen their support for Brian. This put the DA's office

849
00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:04.320
in an awkward position, but they were steadfast in their

850
00:44:04.360 --> 00:44:08.440
belief that Brian did indeed kill Amy, and they continued

851
00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:10.119
the process of building their case.

852
00:44:10.400 --> 00:44:11.719
It's really wild, isn't it.

853
00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:14.679
I Mean we see that a lot of cases here

854
00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:19.079
where the family initially, like even Lacy Peterson's family initially

855
00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:19.960
supported Scott.

856
00:44:20.199 --> 00:44:20.400
Yeah.

857
00:44:21.119 --> 00:44:22.800
Yeah, but it really does if you think about the

858
00:44:22.840 --> 00:44:26.440
DA's position, like they're, you know, investigating this crime and

859
00:44:26.480 --> 00:44:29.639
getting ready to charge this guy, and yet everybody that

860
00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:32.280
is related to the victim is basically saying, no, we

861
00:44:32.639 --> 00:44:33.599
don't believe it was him.

862
00:44:33.719 --> 00:44:36.920
So yeah, it was crazy because maybe her family knew

863
00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:39.559
her frame of mind better than we do. Yeah, but

864
00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:42.719
she sounded like she was a relatively happy person. We

865
00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:45.840
all go through bouts of anxiety and depression.

866
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:47.360
And we'll go through when we get into the trial,

867
00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:49.920
which is coming up next, we'll go through some of

868
00:44:50.119 --> 00:44:54.559
her family's testimony of basically, you know, testifying to her

869
00:44:54.639 --> 00:44:55.599
anger issues.

870
00:44:56.199 --> 00:44:56.679
Oh okay.

871
00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:01.280
On November sixth, twenty nineteen, the DA was finally ready

872
00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:04.239
to move forward. The police showed up at Brian's door

873
00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:07.079
with an arrest warrant. He dropped the mixed nuts that

874
00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:09.000
he had been eating onto the floor. I thought it

875
00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:12.480
was a funny little detail, and placed his hands behind

876
00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:15.599
his back to be cuffed. The courthouse was filled to

877
00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:18.880
capacity for his arraignment, with members from both his family

878
00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:22.000
and Amy's family sitting behind him in a show of support.

879
00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:25.360
Brian was eventually released on bail, although he did have

880
00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:28.199
to wear a tracking device. It took a while for

881
00:45:28.280 --> 00:45:31.639
the trial to start, delayed partly due to COVID. It

882
00:45:31.719 --> 00:45:35.360
began on February twenty third, twenty twenty three. The charge

883
00:45:35.480 --> 00:45:38.079
was first degree murder with a maximum sentence of life

884
00:45:38.119 --> 00:45:41.679
in prison without parole. Brian was now fifty nine years old.

885
00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:45.239
The prosecution set out to convince the jury of nine

886
00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:48.920
men and seven women for them being alternates, that Brian

887
00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:51.239
killed Amy because he was ready to start a new

888
00:45:51.360 --> 00:45:54.239
chapter of his life with Corey and Amy was the

889
00:45:54.360 --> 00:45:57.039
only thing standing in his way. He didn't want to

890
00:45:57.079 --> 00:45:59.559
divorce Amy, both because it would have been bad for

891
00:45:59.639 --> 00:46:03.440
him financially, making it impossible for him to retire, but

892
00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:07.199
also because of public perception. After all, the Fanians were

893
00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:10.639
pillars of the Westfield community, and Brian was seen as

894
00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:14.519
a devoutly religious and moral man. The prosecution had a

895
00:46:14.599 --> 00:46:17.480
high bower to clear, however, because people in general want

896
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:21.000
to trust police officers, and by all accounts, Brian had

897
00:46:21.079 --> 00:46:24.320
been an honest and trustworthy cop throughout his long career.

898
00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:27.920
The prosecution also wanted to show that Amy was her

899
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:30.360
usual self in the days and weeks leading up to

900
00:46:30.440 --> 00:46:33.639
her death. All the messages in her phone were positive

901
00:46:33.760 --> 00:46:37.679
and enthusiastic. She wasn't depressed, she was excited for spring.

902
00:46:38.360 --> 00:46:41.119
She had things that she was looking forward to. She

903
00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:43.679
was going to have a new grandchild soon, her mother

904
00:46:43.880 --> 00:46:47.239
was moving back to Massachusetts from South Dakota, and she

905
00:46:47.320 --> 00:46:49.480
had been working on making a gift just the night

906
00:46:49.559 --> 00:46:52.800
before for a baby shower coming up that weekend, So

907
00:46:52.920 --> 00:46:56.400
why would she choose to end her life. Brian's defense,

908
00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:58.719
on the other hand, sought to convince the jury that

909
00:46:58.880 --> 00:47:02.360
Amy had angerish and that Brian always felt the need

910
00:47:02.440 --> 00:47:05.199
to tread lightly around Amy for fear of setting her off.

911
00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:09.360
When she got angry, she could act impulsively, in this case,

912
00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:13.679
grabbing his gun and either intentionally or maybe accidentally, killing herself.

913
00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:18.119
The first witness for the prosecution was Amy's younger sister,

914
00:47:18.280 --> 00:47:22.679
Anna Hanson. Of all Amy's immediate family, only she and

915
00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:25.800
her sister Mary had finally come to the conclusion that

916
00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:29.519
Brian was guilty. Anna had signed the letter of support,

917
00:47:29.679 --> 00:47:32.000
but said that she felt pressured by her other family

918
00:47:32.119 --> 00:47:35.000
members and also because Brian was there when she was

919
00:47:35.079 --> 00:47:35.760
asked to sign.

920
00:47:36.440 --> 00:47:38.920
Oh, did Brian initiate the letter.

921
00:47:39.400 --> 00:47:41.400
I'm not sure if he did or not, but he

922
00:47:41.599 --> 00:47:45.679
was definitely involved in it. Her belief in Brian's guilt

923
00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:48.760
and her willingness to testify had resulted in the loss

924
00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:51.800
of all her best friends, meaning her family. No one

925
00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:55.320
would speak to her anymore, she said. She testified that

926
00:47:55.559 --> 00:47:58.599
during the course of the investigation, Brian had confided in

927
00:47:58.679 --> 00:48:02.199
her that he was worried about investigators seeing searches he

928
00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:05.559
had done on his computer. Specifically, he told her he

929
00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:08.639
had searched how to make a murder look like a suicide,

930
00:48:09.199 --> 00:48:12.480
which strangely enough, was not found by the investigators. Among

931
00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:15.480
all the other searches that we talked about that were incriminating.

932
00:48:16.440 --> 00:48:18.760
Anna asked Brian why he had searched for that, and

933
00:48:18.880 --> 00:48:21.320
he claimed that he and Amy were watching a CSI

934
00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:23.599
show and that she had asked him to search for it.

935
00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:27.400
Anna said that Amy didn't like watching shows like CSI.

936
00:48:27.719 --> 00:48:32.679
She preferred sappy romances. Anna also testified about an interaction

937
00:48:32.840 --> 00:48:35.639
that she had with Brian two weeks after Amy's death.

938
00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:41.280
He said, so, I have this friend, and he proceeded

939
00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:46.320
to tell me that he was in love with this person.

940
00:48:46.599 --> 00:48:49.719
He was in love with her more than anybody he'd

941
00:48:49.719 --> 00:48:54.400
ever been in love with in his life, how happy

942
00:48:55.119 --> 00:48:57.440
and wanted he felt by her.

943
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:03.880
Did you say to about Ken, Well, I w I.

944
00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:06.000
Was still in shock from losing Amy, and now I'm

945
00:49:06.039 --> 00:49:10.000
in shock that Brian isn't who I thought Brian was.

946
00:49:10.079 --> 00:49:12.880
And I just thought, I was like, well, that's y.

947
00:49:13.519 --> 00:49:15.480
Think back to when you first met Amy. And I said,

948
00:49:15.519 --> 00:49:18.320
surely you loved Amy, you know, at some point in

949
00:49:18.360 --> 00:49:20.840
the beginning even And he said no.

950
00:49:21.880 --> 00:49:26.320
So you have this conversation with to defendant, Uh, what's

951
00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:27.280
the next thing that happens.

952
00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:30.519
We just kind of sat there for a long time.

953
00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:38.000
He was holding my hands and it was just quiet

954
00:49:38.119 --> 00:49:40.440
for a long time. He said he was gonna go

955
00:49:40.519 --> 00:49:44.360
lay down on the couch. So we went into the

956
00:49:44.440 --> 00:49:46.840
living room and he laid down and I was put

957
00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:48.000
a blanket over him.

958
00:49:49.960 --> 00:49:51.119
What was the next thing that happened?

959
00:49:53.639 --> 00:49:57.559
He grabbed me and kissed me really hard andrey lips?

960
00:49:58.880 --> 00:49:59.639
Was it closed or open?

961
00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:05.119
Does it was closed? How did you feel about that?

962
00:50:05.599 --> 00:50:09.440
It was very uncomfortable. Was that something that he normally

963
00:50:09.519 --> 00:50:14.159
did with you? Now you why would he tell her

964
00:50:14.239 --> 00:50:17.719
all this? Unless? Do you think he was attracted to her?

965
00:50:17.960 --> 00:50:21.039
And I don't know, maybe hard to say.

966
00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:21.320
Really.

967
00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:25.840
Some of some of Anna's testimony seemed a little strange

968
00:50:25.880 --> 00:50:29.159
and unbelievable. She said that Amy had been diagnosed with

969
00:50:29.320 --> 00:50:32.760
irritable bowel syndrome in twenty fourteen, and she claimed that

970
00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:36.239
Brian had poisoned her somehow, causing the IBS to start.

971
00:50:37.079 --> 00:50:40.239
Brian's attorney pointed out that she had actually been diagnosed

972
00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:43.199
to the IBS in two thousand and six, and Anna

973
00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:45.760
wasn't able to say how Brian had poisoned her or

974
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:49.559
why she came to believe that. Anna also testified that

975
00:50:49.679 --> 00:50:53.119
something about Brian seemed off starting in twenty seventeen, but

976
00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:56.360
couldn't really say what was off about him. The defense

977
00:50:56.480 --> 00:50:58.800
pointed out that Amy and Brian's son had been in

978
00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:01.719
a serious car accident and around that time, and maybe

979
00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:05.280
that could cause one to seem off. And despite claiming

980
00:51:05.360 --> 00:51:07.719
that she spoke with Amy almost daily and saw her

981
00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:10.679
about once a week, Anna didn't know where Amy worked

982
00:51:10.800 --> 00:51:13.800
or that she only worked four hours a week. Finally,

983
00:51:13.880 --> 00:51:17.320
Brian's attorneys pointed out that Anna hadn't told investigators about

984
00:51:17.320 --> 00:51:21.159
Brian allegedly kissing her until twenty twenty two years into

985
00:51:21.199 --> 00:51:24.800
the investigation. So she had some interesting testimony, but I

986
00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:28.000
think the Brian's defense team was able to kind of

987
00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:31.320
make her look a little bit off or a little bit,

988
00:51:31.400 --> 00:51:33.440
you know, not quite stable.

989
00:51:33.519 --> 00:51:33.760
Maybe.

990
00:51:34.360 --> 00:51:36.920
Well, if I asked you what year your sister had

991
00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:38.360
Lasik surgery, would you know?

992
00:51:39.079 --> 00:51:43.360
No? I would not right. Corey Knowles, now divorced and

993
00:51:43.480 --> 00:51:47.280
going by her maiden name Corey Hasty, testified next. She

994
00:51:47.400 --> 00:51:51.000
openly shared how she and Brian's relationship had evolved from

995
00:51:51.079 --> 00:51:55.039
friendship to flirtation to making out in parking lots. She

996
00:51:55.159 --> 00:51:57.440
said that Brian had talked about ending his marriage but

997
00:51:57.679 --> 00:52:01.440
was concerned about the financial implications and his ability to retire.

998
00:52:02.320 --> 00:52:05.960
She said that shortly before Amy's death, Brian's demeanor changed.

999
00:52:06.280 --> 00:52:08.639
He didn't say why, but she sensed that he was

1000
00:52:08.679 --> 00:52:12.920
getting more frustrated with his marriage. Brian's defense scored more

1001
00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:15.840
points when they got Corey to admit that Brian wasn't

1002
00:52:15.880 --> 00:52:20.000
all that upset when she ended their relationship, and even

1003
00:52:20.119 --> 00:52:22.320
when ultimately you.

1004
00:52:23.800 --> 00:52:27.039
Ended it with Brian. His response was, okay.

1005
00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:28.039
Isn't that right?

1006
00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:30.639
To my recollection?

1007
00:52:31.159 --> 00:52:33.679
In other words, he didn't beg you to change your mind,

1008
00:52:33.760 --> 00:52:34.360
isn't that correct?

1009
00:52:34.559 --> 00:52:34.880
Correct?

1010
00:52:35.800 --> 00:52:38.000
He didn't say to you, oh my god, I killed

1011
00:52:38.039 --> 00:52:41.280
Amy for you and you're leaving me. He never said that, right.

1012
00:52:41.639 --> 00:52:42.000
Correct.

1013
00:52:43.159 --> 00:52:46.000
One other note about Corey's testimony, she never referred to

1014
00:52:46.039 --> 00:52:50.159
Brian by name, just as the defendant. Perhaps the most

1015
00:52:50.199 --> 00:52:54.400
important testimony was around the forensics. The prosecution hoped the

1016
00:52:54.639 --> 00:52:57.679
lack of stipling, the lack of backspatter on the gun,

1017
00:52:58.320 --> 00:53:00.880
the nature of the bullet wound, and the trajectory of

1018
00:53:00.920 --> 00:53:04.039
the bullet would convince the jury that it wasn't possible

1019
00:53:04.079 --> 00:53:07.800
that Amy had shot herself. Their ballistics expert claimed that

1020
00:53:07.880 --> 00:53:10.480
the gun had been fired on a slightly downward angle

1021
00:53:10.599 --> 00:53:13.599
from a distance of at least eighteen inches from her head.

1022
00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:16.920
There was no gunshot residue found on her skin around

1023
00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:19.320
the bullet wound, and the wound did not have the

1024
00:53:19.400 --> 00:53:22.079
typical stellet pattern that you would expect from a self

1025
00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:25.519
inflicted bullet. There was also no backspatter of blood on

1026
00:53:25.599 --> 00:53:29.000
the gun, which is typical for close up gunshots. As

1027
00:53:29.039 --> 00:53:32.440
a test, the ballistics expert gathered twenty women of roughly

1028
00:53:32.519 --> 00:53:35.199
Amy's height and had each one attempt to hold a

1029
00:53:35.239 --> 00:53:38.199
fake gun in a way that could replicate the eighteen

1030
00:53:38.239 --> 00:53:41.079
inch distance and the angle, and no one could do it,

1031
00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:44.519
even using their thumb on the trigger the furthest anyone

1032
00:53:44.559 --> 00:53:46.679
could hold the gun away from their head was fifteen

1033
00:53:46.760 --> 00:53:50.199
point five inches, and then only with the ballistics expert

1034
00:53:50.239 --> 00:53:54.559
assisting them. Bryan's defense team had counter arguments from their

1035
00:53:54.599 --> 00:53:58.400
own experts to explain the ballistics evidence. While they didn't

1036
00:53:58.480 --> 00:54:01.400
argue that the trajectory of the bullet was slightly downward

1037
00:54:01.519 --> 00:54:04.679
and slightly back to front, they got the ballistics expert

1038
00:54:04.760 --> 00:54:08.360
to concede that the trajectory would be possible if Amy

1039
00:54:08.440 --> 00:54:11.159
had tilted her head slightly down into the right as

1040
00:54:11.239 --> 00:54:14.519
she pulled the trigger with her thumb. Regarding the lack

1041
00:54:14.559 --> 00:54:17.519
of backspatter on the gun, the defense had a blood

1042
00:54:17.559 --> 00:54:20.400
pattern analyst who claimed that no matter how close or

1043
00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:23.039
far away a gun is fired into the head, it's

1044
00:54:23.079 --> 00:54:26.400
impossible to say with certainty whether there would be back spatter.

1045
00:54:27.280 --> 00:54:29.760
The defense was also able to get the state's crime

1046
00:54:29.880 --> 00:54:33.760
lab technician to admit that because of all the variables involved,

1047
00:54:33.920 --> 00:54:37.360
there was no way to reliably predict when backspatter will

1048
00:54:37.360 --> 00:54:40.800
occur and when it won't. What about the lack of

1049
00:54:40.880 --> 00:54:44.679
gunshot residue, The defense argued that because Amy had a

1050
00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:47.639
thick head of hair that could actually act as a

1051
00:54:47.719 --> 00:54:52.320
buffer against gunpowder. Their expert had authored a study published

1052
00:54:52.320 --> 00:54:55.119
in the FBI's Forensic Science Journal in two thousand and

1053
00:54:55.199 --> 00:54:58.360
four called the Effect of Hair on the Deposition of

1054
00:54:58.440 --> 00:55:02.719
Gunshot Residue. The study showed how dense, thick hair could

1055
00:55:02.760 --> 00:55:06.639
block gunshot residue from being deposited on the skin around

1056
00:55:06.679 --> 00:55:09.880
a bullet hole. For the forty eight Hours episode on

1057
00:55:09.960 --> 00:55:13.320
the case, the expert did a demonstration. So he used

1058
00:55:13.320 --> 00:55:15.840
a wig and had they had special paper that makes

1059
00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:19.519
the gunshot residue visible. And it was really very compelling

1060
00:55:19.559 --> 00:55:22.559
because he had basically one piece of paper just on

1061
00:55:22.679 --> 00:55:24.719
its own and one with a wig over it, and

1062
00:55:24.840 --> 00:55:28.079
he shot a gun from pretty close range into both

1063
00:55:28.159 --> 00:55:31.079
of them, and on the paper that had no wig

1064
00:55:31.159 --> 00:55:33.840
on it, it was very visible the gunshot residue, but

1065
00:55:33.960 --> 00:55:35.719
the one that had the wig on it, there was

1066
00:55:35.800 --> 00:55:38.880
really almost no gunshot residue on the paper behind the wig.

1067
00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:41.679
Oh interesting the case that I'm working on right now.

1068
00:55:41.880 --> 00:55:45.559
I also watched a forty eight Hours episode and I

1069
00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:48.039
just want to say, forty eight hours, I don't think

1070
00:55:48.079 --> 00:55:51.639
it's enough credit. Yeah, I Dateline is, you know, everyone's favorite,

1071
00:55:51.760 --> 00:55:54.400
But I think the forty eight hours episodes are great

1072
00:55:54.559 --> 00:55:59.599
and they sometimes do show more of the forensic information.

1073
00:55:59.719 --> 00:56:02.559
Yeah, Datelined, Yes, No, I agree. It was really I

1074
00:56:02.599 --> 00:56:03.679
thought a really interesting.

1075
00:56:03.480 --> 00:56:05.679
Demonstration shame in my case that I'm working on right

1076
00:56:05.719 --> 00:56:06.039
now too.

1077
00:56:06.840 --> 00:56:09.880
While the hair could block gunshot residue from being deposited

1078
00:56:09.920 --> 00:56:12.400
on the skin, it would still be expected to leave

1079
00:56:12.480 --> 00:56:16.639
residue in the hair. The prosecution's crime scene analyst admitted

1080
00:56:16.679 --> 00:56:19.559
that they should have taken a hair sample while Amy's

1081
00:56:19.599 --> 00:56:21.599
body was still at the crime scene and sent it

1082
00:56:21.679 --> 00:56:24.960
for testing, but they didn't. Once a body is moved,

1083
00:56:25.039 --> 00:56:27.840
gunshot residue can easily shake off of the hair and

1084
00:56:27.960 --> 00:56:31.519
not show up in later testing. They did argue, however,

1085
00:56:31.639 --> 00:56:34.679
that the autopsy would have revealed a smell of burned

1086
00:56:34.719 --> 00:56:37.079
hair if the gun had been fired at close range.

1087
00:56:37.760 --> 00:56:41.039
The officer attending the autopsy said that he was specifically

1088
00:56:41.119 --> 00:56:43.760
trying to detect the smell of burned hair and it

1089
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:48.239
wasn't there. The defense's expert also stated that Amy's thick

1090
00:56:48.280 --> 00:56:50.239
hair could be the reason for the lack of the

1091
00:56:50.320 --> 00:56:53.639
stelle it or star shaped pattern of the wound, something

1092
00:56:53.679 --> 00:56:58.000
the prosecution's expert admitted could be the case. The defense

1093
00:56:58.079 --> 00:57:01.159
also had an explanation for it least some of Brian's

1094
00:57:01.280 --> 00:57:05.800
suspicious website searches. Remember, he had searched or visited sites

1095
00:57:05.840 --> 00:57:10.079
with titles like common and Dangerous Poisons, what drug causes

1096
00:57:10.159 --> 00:57:13.639
the most deaths each year, sixteen common household items that

1097
00:57:13.719 --> 00:57:17.920
could kill you, and carbon monoxide the Invisible Killer. Well,

1098
00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:20.440
it just so happened that around the time of these searches,

1099
00:57:20.920 --> 00:57:23.400
Brian and Amy were preparing to have a young niece

1100
00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:25.800
stay at their house for a few days, and so

1101
00:57:25.960 --> 00:57:28.159
it would be natural to try and ensure that their

1102
00:57:28.199 --> 00:57:31.480
two hundred year old house was safe. I mean, I

1103
00:57:32.199 --> 00:57:34.480
can totally see those searches being something you would do

1104
00:57:34.599 --> 00:57:36.440
if you've got an old house and you've got a

1105
00:57:36.559 --> 00:57:37.599
kid coming to stay with you.

1106
00:57:38.400 --> 00:57:39.280
How old is the kid?

1107
00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:41.880
I didn't see how old. They just said it was.

1108
00:57:41.880 --> 00:57:45.239
Young, fixteen, common household items that could kill you.

1109
00:57:45.519 --> 00:57:47.880
Well, that wasn't what is he searched. That was an article.

1110
00:57:48.079 --> 00:57:50.400
That was the name of an article that he found, right, So,

1111
00:57:51.519 --> 00:57:53.599
I mean, yeah, maybe it's a little bit of a stretch,

1112
00:57:53.679 --> 00:57:55.760
but I think it's I think it's plausible.

1113
00:57:56.239 --> 00:57:58.039
Me he had kids, but.

1114
00:57:58.079 --> 00:57:59.559
They were growing up. I mean they had been out

1115
00:57:59.559 --> 00:58:00.760
of the house for a long time.

1116
00:58:01.239 --> 00:58:04.559
Still, you know, it's toxic for children.

1117
00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:10.400
I think it's a plausible defense. However, the defense did

1118
00:58:10.440 --> 00:58:14.000
not offer any explanation for the searches about gunshot residue.

1119
00:58:15.039 --> 00:58:17.960
The defense presented some evidence about guns used by the

1120
00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:21.199
Westfield Police Department in support of the theory that Amy

1121
00:58:21.280 --> 00:58:24.840
may have pulled the trigger accidentally. First, the guns used

1122
00:58:24.880 --> 00:58:27.840
by the Westfield Police have a lighter than average trigger pull,

1123
00:58:28.000 --> 00:58:31.000
meaning it takes less force to pull the trigger, and

1124
00:58:31.239 --> 00:58:33.360
when an officer takes a gun out of their holster,

1125
00:58:33.599 --> 00:58:36.800
it's ready to fire, fully loaded and no safety, which

1126
00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:39.320
that actually really surprised me that I don't know if

1127
00:58:39.320 --> 00:58:42.599
that's typical or if that's just the Westfield Police policy.

1128
00:58:42.679 --> 00:58:45.599
But they don't have their safety on. There was also

1129
00:58:45.679 --> 00:58:49.239
evidence presented by both sides regarding the gun habits of

1130
00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:53.239
police officers, particularly when using the restroom. Would it be

1131
00:58:53.360 --> 00:58:56.280
normal for a police officer to leave his gun sitting out,

1132
00:58:56.800 --> 00:58:59.960
especially in the middle of a heated argument. Brian's old

1133
00:59:00.119 --> 00:59:03.400
boss and now mayor of Westfield, Mike McCabe, testified that

1134
00:59:03.559 --> 00:59:06.320
Brian didn't normally leave his gun behind when he used

1135
00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:09.639
the restroom at work, but the defense argued that Amy

1136
00:59:09.719 --> 00:59:12.039
preferred that Brian sit down to pee when he was

1137
00:59:12.079 --> 00:59:14.400
at home, which would make the gun more of an

1138
00:59:14.480 --> 00:59:18.400
inconvenience compared to when standing at a urinal. Of the

1139
00:59:18.480 --> 00:59:21.000
many things I never thought we would get into in

1140
00:59:21.079 --> 00:59:24.519
our true crime podcasting career was about what you do

1141
00:59:24.639 --> 00:59:25.920
with your gun when you go pee?

1142
00:59:26.440 --> 00:59:30.320
Right, I mean, he's home, it's a safe environment. You know,

1143
00:59:30.360 --> 00:59:34.199
there's no small children around. Yeah, I think you would

1144
00:59:34.320 --> 00:59:36.679
just put your gun around down somewhere if you were

1145
00:59:36.679 --> 00:59:37.480
going to the bathroom.

1146
00:59:37.559 --> 00:59:40.000
Well, and on that same topic, and another blow to

1147
00:59:40.079 --> 00:59:43.199
the prosecution, one of Amy's friends actually testified that she

1148
00:59:43.360 --> 00:59:45.880
went to Amy and Brian's house for lunch one day

1149
00:59:46.360 --> 00:59:49.239
and she saw a handgun sitting on the table while

1150
00:59:49.280 --> 00:59:53.159
Brian was upstairs changing his clothes. She remembered it distinctly

1151
00:59:53.239 --> 00:59:56.639
because she was quite uncomfortable around guns, So you're right.

1152
00:59:56.880 --> 00:59:59.440
It apparently wasn't unusual for Brian to set his gun

1153
00:59:59.519 --> 01:00:03.199
down while at home. Probably the most crucial testimony for

1154
01:00:03.320 --> 01:00:07.199
the defense came from Amy's family members, who all supported Brian,

1155
01:00:07.280 --> 01:00:09.960
except for the two sisters that we mentioned earlier, Anna

1156
01:00:10.079 --> 01:00:13.239
and Mary. All of her family members who testified on

1157
01:00:13.360 --> 01:00:16.440
Brian's behalf said that they loved Amy, but they knew

1158
01:00:16.480 --> 01:00:18.880
that she had a quick temper and could snap at

1159
01:00:18.920 --> 01:00:22.920
a moment's notice. Amy and Brian's son Travis, testified that

1160
01:00:23.079 --> 01:00:25.559
growing up, he and his sister would do anything to

1161
01:00:25.639 --> 01:00:29.079
avoid their mother's fury, which was usually directed at their father.

1162
01:00:29.960 --> 01:00:34.119
She would impulsively lose control, briefly lashing out, cursing, banging

1163
01:00:34.199 --> 01:00:37.199
things around. Their father, on the other hand, was always

1164
01:00:37.239 --> 01:00:38.280
calm and level headed.

1165
01:00:39.639 --> 01:00:41.440
I just have to laugh because I can see the

1166
01:00:41.519 --> 01:00:43.039
same thing happening to me.

1167
01:00:44.559 --> 01:00:46.280
There were some things in this case. They were a

1168
01:00:46.320 --> 01:00:47.880
little reminiscent, but well.

1169
01:00:47.719 --> 01:00:51.719
Your father's always so calm and level headed, and God,

1170
01:00:51.719 --> 01:00:53.960
I forbid a woman show an emotion every now and then,

1171
01:00:54.280 --> 01:00:59.719
sometimes you deserve she be yelled at it. I very rarely,

1172
01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:02.280
much more likely to yella kiss yes.

1173
01:01:03.159 --> 01:01:06.639
Travis and his sister both testified about taking family road trips.

1174
01:01:06.760 --> 01:01:10.000
Their dad would drive while their mom was responsible for navigating,

1175
01:01:10.199 --> 01:01:12.639
and the kids would sit in the back seat. If

1176
01:01:12.679 --> 01:01:15.280
Brian would miss a turn, Amy could lose her temper,

1177
01:01:15.559 --> 01:01:18.280
sometimes swinging her arms into the back seat and striking

1178
01:01:18.360 --> 01:01:21.559
the children. Travis said that he could easily imagine his

1179
01:01:21.679 --> 01:01:25.159
mom grabbing Brian's gun to dramatically make a point, and

1180
01:01:25.360 --> 01:01:27.559
because she didn't know much about guns and the fact

1181
01:01:27.719 --> 01:01:30.800
we mentioned earlier that Westfield police officer's guns have a

1182
01:01:30.880 --> 01:01:34.000
light trigger pull and no safety, he could picture her

1183
01:01:34.119 --> 01:01:38.639
accidentally pulling the trigger. Brian and Amy's daughter, Victoria, also

1184
01:01:38.760 --> 01:01:41.199
testified to many of the same things as her brother.

1185
01:01:42.039 --> 01:01:44.000
She said that her mom had a short fuse and

1186
01:01:44.239 --> 01:01:46.320
you could tell just by looking at her when something

1187
01:01:46.440 --> 01:01:49.360
was off because of what she called the Amy face.

1188
01:01:50.159 --> 01:01:52.239
If something went wrong or she didn't get her way,

1189
01:01:52.360 --> 01:01:56.280
Amy could go off. Under questioning from the prosecution, however,

1190
01:01:56.480 --> 01:01:59.239
Victoria admitted that she had never seen her mom threaten

1191
01:01:59.320 --> 01:02:03.079
to harm herself during any of these incidents. Perhaps the

1192
01:02:03.119 --> 01:02:06.280
most compelling testimony for the defense came from Amy's mom,

1193
01:02:06.519 --> 01:02:10.599
Patricia Tarrant. She also talked about Amy's temper and how

1194
01:02:10.679 --> 01:02:13.960
it was normally directed at Brian. She was embarrassed at

1195
01:02:14.000 --> 01:02:16.800
how Amy would snap at Brian, saying it wasn't a

1196
01:02:16.840 --> 01:02:18.840
way to talk to your husband. It was more like

1197
01:02:19.039 --> 01:02:22.760
how you might reprimand a child. Patricia said that Brian

1198
01:02:22.840 --> 01:02:25.159
did the cooking and cleaning when he came home from work,

1199
01:02:25.280 --> 01:02:28.519
despite Amy only working four hours a week. She said

1200
01:02:28.519 --> 01:02:31.599
that Brian couldn't do anything right in Amy's eyes, while

1201
01:02:31.639 --> 01:02:33.440
Brian was always calm and peaceful.

1202
01:02:33.760 --> 01:02:34.920
That is a harsh testimony.

1203
01:02:36.239 --> 01:02:38.519
Isn't really a lot of this testimony kind of broke

1204
01:02:38.559 --> 01:02:40.840
my heart because it's like she is the victim one

1205
01:02:40.840 --> 01:02:43.960
way or another right here, and her whole family is

1206
01:02:44.039 --> 01:02:47.719
basically up there kind of saying not great things about

1207
01:02:47.760 --> 01:02:52.239
her on the stand. After forty witnesses and fifteen days

1208
01:02:52.239 --> 01:02:54.639
of testimony, the case finally went to the jury on

1209
01:02:54.760 --> 01:02:58.599
March twenty first, twenty twenty three. They deliberated for two

1210
01:02:58.719 --> 01:03:04.239
days before finding Brian guilty of first degree murder. When

1211
01:03:04.280 --> 01:03:06.760
the verdict was read, Brian bowed his head, and there

1212
01:03:06.760 --> 01:03:10.920
were audible gasps and sobs coming from Brian's supporters, many

1213
01:03:11.000 --> 01:03:14.519
of them from Amy's immediate family. It seemed like most

1214
01:03:14.559 --> 01:03:17.119
of them truly believed that Brian would be acquitted.

1215
01:03:17.480 --> 01:03:20.760
Wow, I should have asked this earlier. But was there

1216
01:03:21.119 --> 01:03:22.360
a polygraph test?

1217
01:03:22.760 --> 01:03:25.679
I never read anything about a polygraph test. I'm assuming

1218
01:03:25.880 --> 01:03:29.039
if he was asked to take one he refused, but

1219
01:03:29.119 --> 01:03:33.960
I never never saw anything. Most members of the community

1220
01:03:34.000 --> 01:03:37.480
of Westfield, including both Brian and Amy's families, still stand

1221
01:03:37.559 --> 01:03:40.719
with Brian. Leaders and members from the church that Brian

1222
01:03:40.840 --> 01:03:45.159
went to still regularly visit him in prison. Brian is

1223
01:03:45.239 --> 01:03:47.559
planning to file an appeal, and he has hired a

1224
01:03:47.639 --> 01:03:51.880
high powered attorney to help him. Rosemary Scapecchio spent ten

1225
01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:55.760
years uncovering corruption in the Boston Police Department, and she

1226
01:03:55.960 --> 01:03:59.360
was featured in the Netflix documentary Trial four, where she

1227
01:03:59.480 --> 01:04:02.519
represented Sean Ellis, who spent more than twenty one years

1228
01:04:02.599 --> 01:04:06.599
behind bars after being convicted of killing Boston police detective

1229
01:04:06.679 --> 01:04:11.000
John Mulligan in nineteen ninety three. His conviction was finally

1230
01:04:11.079 --> 01:04:16.079
overturned with Sciapecchio's help. Rosemary is known for being an aggressive,

1231
01:04:16.320 --> 01:04:19.679
fierce advocate for people who have been wrongfully convicted. So

1232
01:04:19.880 --> 01:04:22.599
it will be very interesting to see where this goes.

1233
01:04:23.960 --> 01:04:24.199
Wow.

1234
01:04:25.480 --> 01:04:28.000
All right, so we've had some discussion along the way,

1235
01:04:28.039 --> 01:04:31.199
but I do have a few questions for you. What

1236
01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:35.239
do you think about Amy's family nearly all supporting Brian even.

1237
01:04:35.039 --> 01:04:35.559
To this day.

1238
01:04:36.599 --> 01:04:39.159
I mean, I don't know what to think. I feel

1239
01:04:39.199 --> 01:04:41.320
really bad for Amy, like you said, I mean, she

1240
01:04:41.559 --> 01:04:45.199
is the victim here, and I have a heart. If

1241
01:04:45.239 --> 01:04:49.519
you're angry, I don't think you're likely to shoot yourself.

1242
01:04:50.880 --> 01:04:53.400
If she did, which I don't believe she did. I

1243
01:04:53.440 --> 01:04:56.239
believe I believe he killed her. But if she did,

1244
01:04:56.639 --> 01:04:58.800
I would say it was probably an accident, that she

1245
01:04:58.960 --> 01:04:59.679
was just being you know.

1246
01:05:00.800 --> 01:05:03.960
I mean, how do you accidentally shoot yourself in the head. Yeah, well,

1247
01:05:04.039 --> 01:05:07.119
and yeah, that is horrible that I want. I hope

1248
01:05:07.159 --> 01:05:10.559
that they've reevaluated their gun policy, like you said, that

1249
01:05:10.639 --> 01:05:14.000
they're a light trigger and no safety. I mean that's yeah,

1250
01:05:14.320 --> 01:05:15.360
that's super dangerous.

1251
01:05:15.599 --> 01:05:18.280
Yeah, that is a little bit strange. Do you think

1252
01:05:18.360 --> 01:05:20.440
that Brian killed I think I know the answer to this,

1253
01:05:20.519 --> 01:05:21.920
But do you think that Brian killed Amy?

1254
01:05:22.199 --> 01:05:26.599
I mean, I I think he must have, but I

1255
01:05:26.679 --> 01:05:29.079
don't I really don't know. I mean her, I have

1256
01:05:29.199 --> 01:05:32.320
to respect her family and what they think. But I

1257
01:05:32.360 --> 01:05:35.000
guess not her whole family, right, but the fact that

1258
01:05:35.079 --> 01:05:38.679
he was, you know, having an affair that never looks good, right.

1259
01:05:39.519 --> 01:05:41.440
But yeah, I would, I would. I think that he

1260
01:05:41.599 --> 01:05:42.280
sounds guilty.

1261
01:05:42.440 --> 01:05:44.880
What do you think was the most compelling evidence against him?

1262
01:05:45.199 --> 01:05:48.280
I think the searches, Yeah.

1263
01:05:47.920 --> 01:05:50.159
I think without the searches, I think because I think

1264
01:05:50.199 --> 01:05:53.079
all the ballistics evidence, I think the defense actually did

1265
01:05:53.119 --> 01:05:55.639
a very good job of refuting or at least giving

1266
01:05:55.719 --> 01:05:56.239
some doubt that.

1267
01:05:56.400 --> 01:05:58.960
Well, yeah, like you said that that hair evidence is

1268
01:05:59.000 --> 01:06:00.320
pretty compelling.

1269
01:06:01.320 --> 01:06:03.000
But I don't know how you get past the searches

1270
01:06:03.119 --> 01:06:08.159
like searching for gunshot residue and what state police. You know,

1271
01:06:08.280 --> 01:06:10.280
people are going to respond to a crime scene.

1272
01:06:10.360 --> 01:06:12.519
That very true. Yeah, I forgot some of those.

1273
01:06:12.639 --> 01:06:12.840
Yeah.

1274
01:06:12.960 --> 01:06:15.320
Yeah, that was really pretty pretty damning, I think.

1275
01:06:15.800 --> 01:06:21.159
And it's heartbreaking to think that, you know, her family

1276
01:06:21.239 --> 01:06:23.679
is bending over backwards to support him and he might

1277
01:06:23.760 --> 01:06:25.320
be very well might be guilty.

1278
01:06:25.480 --> 01:06:29.280
Yeah, it is heartbreaking. Do you think so? The question

1279
01:06:29.400 --> 01:06:31.599
of whether he did it is a different question from

1280
01:06:31.639 --> 01:06:34.199
whether you would have found him guilty if you were

1281
01:06:34.239 --> 01:06:35.679
on the jury, And I know you didn't sit through

1282
01:06:35.679 --> 01:06:38.599
the whole trial and the jurors did. But do you think,

1283
01:06:38.719 --> 01:06:40.280
just based on what you've heard, that you would have

1284
01:06:40.400 --> 01:06:41.280
found him guilty?

1285
01:06:42.559 --> 01:06:46.880
That is a good question, and I don't I really,

1286
01:06:47.039 --> 01:06:52.679
I don't know. As a cop out, I'm sorry, I

1287
01:06:52.760 --> 01:06:55.199
can't give you a solid this is what I think

1288
01:06:55.320 --> 01:06:58.840
because I didn't sit through fifteen days of testimony. Yeah, yeah,

1289
01:06:58.840 --> 01:07:01.039
I would tend to think that I probably would have

1290
01:07:01.079 --> 01:07:01.880
found him guilty.

1291
01:07:02.280 --> 01:07:04.920
Yeah, I think I would have to. And really, without

1292
01:07:04.960 --> 01:07:06.800
the internet searches, I don't think I would have. But

1293
01:07:06.960 --> 01:07:10.360
with the internet searches, I think that that is what

1294
01:07:10.440 --> 01:07:12.840
would push me over the edge. But you're right, without

1295
01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:14.800
sitting through the whole trial, it's it's hard to know.

1296
01:07:15.079 --> 01:07:17.440
Yeah, I hate to be wishy. Was she Yeah, I

1297
01:07:17.519 --> 01:07:19.880
do go back to I don't believe she could have

1298
01:07:19.920 --> 01:07:20.679
shot herself.

1299
01:07:21.239 --> 01:07:21.440
Yeah.

1300
01:07:22.360 --> 01:07:24.400
I think Juri's usually get it right. I have a

1301
01:07:24.480 --> 01:07:26.480
lot of respect for jury's usually.

1302
01:07:26.639 --> 01:07:26.840
Yeah.

1303
01:07:27.400 --> 01:07:29.880
I forgot to mention this about the Karen read child

1304
01:07:30.039 --> 01:07:33.400
because we were just recording the update. Before we recorded this,

1305
01:07:34.800 --> 01:07:38.599
the judge is protecting their identities, and at first it

1306
01:07:38.719 --> 01:07:40.360
was just a short term, but now I think she

1307
01:07:40.519 --> 01:07:44.920
has permanently sealed their identities because they were nervous for

1308
01:07:45.639 --> 01:07:47.360
you know, yeah, theirselfs.

1309
01:07:47.440 --> 01:07:48.239
I can't blame them.

1310
01:07:48.519 --> 01:07:51.960
Yeah, pretty scary situation, but I think in general jurors

1311
01:07:52.039 --> 01:07:56.679
should be protected. Yeah. It's delicate work, and in today's world,

1312
01:07:56.880 --> 01:07:59.199
with you know, everyone being obsessed with true crime and

1313
01:08:00.119 --> 01:08:02.679
people get invested on one side or the other, I

1314
01:08:02.760 --> 01:08:05.480
think that, you know, jures, it's important that they feel

1315
01:08:05.559 --> 01:08:08.880
safe and are able to fulfill their duties.

1316
01:08:09.039 --> 01:08:11.039
Yeah. If I was on a jury for a murder,

1317
01:08:11.239 --> 01:08:13.320
I don't care what the situation was around the murder,

1318
01:08:13.320 --> 01:08:15.400
I would it would make me very nervous, you know.

1319
01:08:15.639 --> 01:08:15.880
Yeah.

1320
01:08:17.119 --> 01:08:19.520
Well that is the story of Brian and Amy Fanyan.

1321
01:08:19.760 --> 01:08:22.560
We will provide an update if there are updates on

1322
01:08:22.680 --> 01:08:25.640
Brian's appeal process. Rest in peace.

1323
01:08:25.720 --> 01:08:26.000
Amy.

1324
01:08:32.880 --> 01:08:35.439
If you're a regular listener of Love Mary Kill, you

1325
01:08:35.600 --> 01:08:39.000
know that we every month we donate at least twenty

1326
01:08:39.079 --> 01:08:42.760
five percent of our revenues from advertising and from our

1327
01:08:42.840 --> 01:08:46.359
patron program to a different charity. And we're really happy

1328
01:08:46.399 --> 01:08:47.640
to be able to do that. We're proud to be

1329
01:08:47.680 --> 01:08:49.439
able to do that. It was one of our goals

1330
01:08:49.479 --> 01:08:51.279
when we started the podcast is to be able to

1331
01:08:51.840 --> 01:08:55.279
give back to worthwhile causes. So we let you know

1332
01:08:55.399 --> 01:08:58.159
this just to say thank you for listening, because it's

1333
01:08:58.239 --> 01:09:00.119
really because of you that we're able to do this.

1334
01:09:00.520 --> 01:09:04.920
And for our July earnings, we gave to an organization

1335
01:09:05.039 --> 01:09:06.199
called the Headstrong Project.

1336
01:09:06.880 --> 01:09:11.640
The Headstrong Project is a nonprofit mental health organization providing confidential,

1337
01:09:12.119 --> 01:09:16.359
barrier free and stigma free PTSD treatment to our veterans,

1338
01:09:16.760 --> 01:09:20.840
service members, and family connected to their care. Their goal

1339
01:09:21.079 --> 01:09:25.000
is to help their clients triumph over trauma by providing

1340
01:09:25.079 --> 01:09:29.279
them with effective mental health treatment. Headstrong's network of Trauma

1341
01:09:29.359 --> 01:09:34.560
in FOREGM clinical partners provide individualized, evidence based outpatient care

1342
01:09:34.760 --> 01:09:38.520
to their patients. I am so grateful and in awe

1343
01:09:38.840 --> 01:09:42.319
of what our military does for us and the sacrifices

1344
01:09:42.760 --> 01:09:46.159
they and their families make for us. And it makes

1345
01:09:46.239 --> 01:09:49.720
me really just so sad that so many soldiers come

1346
01:09:49.760 --> 01:09:51.479
home and suffer.

1347
01:09:51.640 --> 01:09:54.399
And the we don't give them the support that they

1348
01:09:54.479 --> 01:09:56.359
need to and that's just a crime.

1349
01:09:56.520 --> 01:09:59.399
So, I mean, we weren't able to do much, but

1350
01:09:59.680 --> 01:10:02.119
we are very proud to be able to support them

1351
01:10:02.119 --> 01:10:05.119
when we're so grateful to you, our listeners. And we

1352
01:10:05.239 --> 01:10:08.159
failed to mention in June that we donated to the

1353
01:10:08.279 --> 01:10:13.600
Trevor Project. The Trevor Project focuses on suicide prevention efforts

1354
01:10:13.640 --> 01:10:18.880
among lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer and questioning youth. They're

1355
01:10:18.920 --> 01:10:21.560
both great organizations, and thank you so much for helping

1356
01:10:21.640 --> 01:10:22.239
us support them.

1357
01:10:22.399 --> 01:10:25.159
Yeah, thank you. I know we're running a long but

1358
01:10:25.399 --> 01:10:27.119
I did want to take just a minute to talk

1359
01:10:27.159 --> 01:10:29.079
about the Olympics because I was able to go for

1360
01:10:29.239 --> 01:10:32.319
a few days and it was just incredible opportunity, such

1361
01:10:32.319 --> 01:10:35.640
a great experience, and I really was happy to have

1362
01:10:35.760 --> 01:10:38.359
the opportunity, partly thanks to my company, which is actually

1363
01:10:38.439 --> 01:10:40.680
based in Paris, and I had to go there for work,

1364
01:10:40.760 --> 01:10:43.800
and so you actually encouraged me, like to stay an

1365
01:10:43.840 --> 01:10:46.319
extra few days and experience some of the Olympics, and

1366
01:10:46.399 --> 01:10:48.079
it was just it was so cool. It was just

1367
01:10:48.359 --> 01:10:50.520
a really once in a lifetime experience.

1368
01:10:51.439 --> 01:10:54.279
I love the Olympics too, and you know, just being home,

1369
01:10:54.399 --> 01:10:59.960
it's just just so full of joy and sportsmanship and camarade.

1370
01:11:01.119 --> 01:11:04.520
Yeah, and I really love the like the underdog stories,

1371
01:11:04.640 --> 01:11:08.159
like the small countries or the people that normally you

1372
01:11:08.199 --> 01:11:10.760
wouldn't hear about. One of one of my favorite things

1373
01:11:11.000 --> 01:11:13.960
was going to see table tennis and there was a

1374
01:11:14.000 --> 01:11:16.479
woman from China who was fifty eight years old and

1375
01:11:16.560 --> 01:11:19.399
it was her first Olympics ever. She had like given

1376
01:11:19.479 --> 01:11:21.680
up table tennis for twenty years and then gotten back

1377
01:11:21.760 --> 01:11:24.439
into it, and it was just so cool. Like she's

1378
01:11:24.640 --> 01:11:26.399
she's not gonna win a medal, but it was just

1379
01:11:26.760 --> 01:11:29.920
awesome that she was there and she played incredibly and

1380
01:11:30.000 --> 01:11:31.760
it was really it was just really cool to see.

1381
01:11:31.840 --> 01:11:34.039
Yeah, there's so many good heartwarming stories and if you're

1382
01:11:34.079 --> 01:11:38.199
not crying, you're not really watching the Olympics because they

1383
01:11:38.359 --> 01:11:40.399
just it just makes me so emotional and even like

1384
01:11:40.479 --> 01:11:42.800
you're saying, it's great to see an underdog, but also

1385
01:11:43.199 --> 01:11:47.039
like it's hard not to mention the goats like Katie Ledecky.

1386
01:11:47.079 --> 01:11:50.920
It's Simone Biles. Yeah, they're also incredible to watch as well.

1387
01:11:51.600 --> 01:11:55.199
She's making history. And I love that women's sports always

1388
01:11:55.239 --> 01:11:58.119
takes a backseat to men's sports, but this Olympics it

1389
01:11:58.159 --> 01:11:59.720
feels like women are being celebrated.

1390
01:11:59.800 --> 01:12:03.000
Yeah. Absolutely. I actually have a short story about a

1391
01:12:03.520 --> 01:12:05.760
young woman that I just saw this morning that it's

1392
01:12:06.000 --> 01:12:07.840
very much related to this, so I wanted to share

1393
01:12:07.840 --> 01:12:10.479
it too, because it's kind of like a heartbreaking story

1394
01:12:10.560 --> 01:12:15.880
but really amazing this gymnast. Her name was Alena Mukina.

1395
01:12:15.960 --> 01:12:16.920
Have you ever heard of her?

1396
01:12:17.319 --> 01:12:17.960
I don't believe so.

1397
01:12:18.439 --> 01:12:21.920
So she died at the age of forty six, eighteen

1398
01:12:22.000 --> 01:12:23.960
years ago, and I just saw this Twitter thread from

1399
01:12:24.000 --> 01:12:26.560
a Twitter user named Danny Boy. But she's one of

1400
01:12:26.600 --> 01:12:30.079
the most talented gymnasts that ever was around, and she

1401
01:12:30.159 --> 01:12:33.439
actually never got to compete at the Olympics. So she

1402
01:12:33.720 --> 01:12:37.600
was born in Moscow. She was orphaned as a child.

1403
01:12:37.680 --> 01:12:41.079
Their mother passed away. She grew up in an orphanage.

1404
01:12:42.119 --> 01:12:44.920
But she really loved gymnastics and she became like she

1405
01:12:45.079 --> 01:12:47.560
just had this relentless drive and she made all this

1406
01:12:47.720 --> 01:12:50.880
progress and so was she became like one of the

1407
01:12:50.920 --> 01:12:55.159
best gymnasts in Russia. And she competed at the World's

1408
01:12:55.239 --> 01:12:59.000
Championship in nineteen seventy eight against Nadiya Kominici, who well

1409
01:12:59.079 --> 01:13:04.239
know Nadiya she right, she was from Romania and everyone

1410
01:13:04.359 --> 01:13:06.840
was like, yeah, Nadia Komonici is going to win this. Well,

1411
01:13:07.079 --> 01:13:10.920
Elena beat Nadia in a huge upset to become the

1412
01:13:11.119 --> 01:13:14.520
all around world champion in nineteen seventy eight. But then

1413
01:13:14.560 --> 01:13:18.720
she broke her leg in nineteen seventy nine, and you know,

1414
01:13:18.840 --> 01:13:21.359
in Moscow in Russia. She was under so much pressure

1415
01:13:21.439 --> 01:13:23.680
that they removed her cast early to try to get

1416
01:13:23.680 --> 01:13:27.800
her back in time for the Olympics. The doctor actually refused,

1417
01:13:27.880 --> 01:13:30.920
They said that her leg hadn't healed enough, but they

1418
01:13:31.000 --> 01:13:33.680
kept putting pressure on the doctors to comply. And it

1419
01:13:33.840 --> 01:13:36.520
was I mean, it was like she was being bullied

1420
01:13:36.600 --> 01:13:40.359
essentially by her coaches. And there was a video of

1421
01:13:40.399 --> 01:13:43.079
an interview with her coach that was shown and it

1422
01:13:43.199 --> 01:13:45.359
was so uncomfortable to watch because you could just tell

1423
01:13:45.479 --> 01:13:48.119
she was really under a lot of pressure and it

1424
01:13:48.199 --> 01:13:52.479
was really an unhealthy relationship. Their coaches pushed her to

1425
01:13:52.640 --> 01:13:55.800
include this particular move in her routine. It's called the

1426
01:13:55.880 --> 01:13:59.119
Thomas Selto, and it had never been performed by a

1427
01:13:59.199 --> 01:14:02.920
female gymnast in competition. It's actually banned today because it's

1428
01:14:03.000 --> 01:14:03.840
too dangerous.

1429
01:14:03.880 --> 01:14:05.840
Oh I think I saw a video of this, yes,

1430
01:14:05.960 --> 01:14:06.239
and she.

1431
01:14:06.439 --> 01:14:09.079
Knew how dangerous it was, and she protested to her

1432
01:14:09.119 --> 01:14:11.720
coach like she was eighteen years old and she's telling

1433
01:14:11.760 --> 01:14:14.159
her coach, this is I'm going to break my neck

1434
01:14:14.319 --> 01:14:17.359
doing this, and the coach was like, you have to

1435
01:14:17.439 --> 01:14:20.199
do it, like world champions don't break their neck. So

1436
01:14:20.399 --> 01:14:23.279
he kept pressuring her to practice it over and over again,

1437
01:14:23.800 --> 01:14:27.000
and she actually did break her neck and staffed her

1438
01:14:27.039 --> 01:14:31.039
spine and she became paralyzed without any movement from the

1439
01:14:31.039 --> 01:14:34.600
shoulder down at age of twenty. So it's super you know,

1440
01:14:34.800 --> 01:14:38.039
such a tragic story and so sad. And she was

1441
01:14:38.119 --> 01:14:40.199
like never expected to walk again or be able to

1442
01:14:40.239 --> 01:14:42.640
do anything, but she had this just relentless drive and

1443
01:14:42.720 --> 01:14:46.119
determination and she know rehabbed and she was able to

1444
01:14:46.199 --> 01:14:50.800
gain at least some you know, some movement and some independence,

1445
01:14:50.840 --> 01:14:53.560
but it was just you know, really a hard thing

1446
01:14:53.640 --> 01:14:55.680
for her, and she ended up dying really young, which

1447
01:14:55.720 --> 01:14:57.920
is is just so sad, Like she just wanted to

1448
01:14:58.000 --> 01:15:00.399
be able to write poetry again. That was her passion

1449
01:15:00.520 --> 01:15:03.119
and so she worked so hard at rehab just to

1450
01:15:03.199 --> 01:15:05.720
be able to do that. And it was people like

1451
01:15:05.800 --> 01:15:07.920
that that are just you know, again the kind of

1452
01:15:07.960 --> 01:15:10.119
the unsung heroes that you don't hear as much about.

1453
01:15:10.279 --> 01:15:13.640
But just amazing story. So I just saw that this morning.

1454
01:15:13.680 --> 01:15:15.319
I just wanted to share it because I thought it

1455
01:15:15.399 --> 01:15:17.920
was a really a really moving story and I had

1456
01:15:17.960 --> 01:15:21.119
never heard of her, and yeah, I think it's important

1457
01:15:21.159 --> 01:15:22.159
to know those stories.

1458
01:15:22.720 --> 01:15:22.960
Story.

1459
01:15:23.960 --> 01:15:26.119
Well, thank you all so much. For listening. We really

1460
01:15:26.279 --> 01:15:28.119
truly appreciate each and every one of you.

1461
01:15:29.199 --> 01:15:32.640
Please rate, review, follow and subscribe, Find us on social media,

1462
01:15:32.800 --> 01:15:36.560
or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com.

1463
01:15:36.880 --> 01:15:40.079
And please consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash

1464
01:15:40.199 --> 01:15:43.279
love Marykill. We have one tier five dollars a month

1465
01:15:43.399 --> 01:15:46.680
for early ad free access and a monthly bonus episode.

1466
01:15:47.039 --> 01:15:47.920
Until next time.

1467
01:15:48.199 --> 01:15:50.039
Don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife.

1468
01:16:02.800 --> 01:16:25.920
Then to topick to to