Catherine and Andrew Suh, and the murder of Robert O’Dubaine

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Hi. I am Rich and I'm
Tina. And if there's one thing we've

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learned in over twenty years of marriage, some days you'll feel like killing your

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husband, and some days you'll feel
like killing your wife. Welcome to love,

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Mary Kill, Hey Tina, Hey
Rich, Oh how are you?

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Oh? I'm good. How are
you? It's a beautiful day here in

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Michigan. It's a beautiful day,
so beautiful in fact, that two days

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ago in March we put our duck
furniture out. We did which we normally

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don't do till I don't know when, but not in March March. No

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beautiful. Yeah. Hey, By
the way, I'm going on strike you

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are. Yeah, Oh okay,
striking for better snacks. I see the

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snack that you brought today, and
I'm a little salty about it. It's

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a really good snack. I know
I didn't. We've done it before.

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A think we've done it, almost
positive we've done it before. I'm not

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so sure. Yeah, I'm going
on straying. You need to step up

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your game. This is a I
know I didn't. It's a great snack.

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I know I didn't put a lot
of efforts. This snack has been

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in our house for about four months, and I'm making sure it doesn't go

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to waste, right, but it's
still some of it is, I don't

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think so. The one variety is
still I'm not going to just steal your

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thunder and let you Well, we
should probably just tell our listeners what the

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snack is. They're probably all curious. It's probably all going to be mad

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too. The one isn't even available
anymore. Oh really? Yeah, oh

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well, the case today that I'm
going to talk about, or we're going

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to talk about, is based in
Chicago's my hometown. Yeah, your hometown.

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So so I was, yeah,
trying to think what snack could we

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do, and you said and you
said, hey, we've got this Garretts

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in the cupboard, Garrett, but
you shouldn't use it because we've had it

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since Christian It's stale. I've been
busy. It's been well. The last

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time we did Chicago case, to
be honest, I was lame. And

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ah, the listener was like,
well, why didn't you do garrets?

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And I was like, oh,
yeah, we should have done garrets because

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then it wasn't four months old,
right, But anyway, go ahead.

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I tasted the garrets and it still
tastes perfectly good to me. Well,

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the chocolate one is still good because
it's coated in chocolate. But the caramel,

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the Chicago I think it's called the
Chicago blend, right it is not?

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Yeah, it is stale. Well, I'm sorry. I'll try to

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do better. You could have driven
to them all again some fresh. I

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know it's okay. I think our
listeners think that I am mean to you,

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and I want you to wonder what
I would like you to talk about

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that for a minute. Am I
am I mean to you? I feel

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there's no pressure. I feel like
I really put it on the spot here

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now. No, you're not mean
to me. You're a lovely, lovely

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woman, a lovely wife. Yes, yes, sure, well, and

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you are. I mean, you
are the I mean, I don't get

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a big haga, but you're pretty
much the absolute best. So of course

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I look mean in comparison to you, well, you are. You are

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very tolerant and patient, like to
a fault, almost You're so patient with

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me. I would say that we're
different. You are more outspoken and opinionated

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maybe than I am, And people
might think that comes across that you're mean,

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but I don't. I'm a little
snarky, but but I think I'm

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pretty I think i'm pretty nice to
you. And Jeah, you're very good

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to me. You sound like you
haven't gotten to your You are good to

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me. If you could see me, I'm blinking s o s oh right

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away. The other day you sent
me someone thank you listeners for your comments

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from Spotify. Someone said, oh, I like the outtakes, and I

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was like, what outtakes? Yeah, people, A lot of people don't

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know that. You don't. You
didn't know that either. But every once

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in a while we have a blooper
and if it's a good bloopers while well,

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I should let me rephrase that,
every one in a while I save

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one of our bloopers. I don't
actually do it that often, but once

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in a while I do, And
when I do, I sometimes put it

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at the very very end of the
episode, after the music. I didn't

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know that existed, and no one's
ever mentioned it. It's kind of like

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a little easter egg. I think
it's kind of fun. That was very

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timely of you. I didn't even
think about it. But my point is

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like, I don't even know what
you're putting in there, and I'm going

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to be honest, sometimes I burn, but I know sometimes you record them,

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so I apologize listeners for whatever he's
putting. I don't put anything anything

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that would be embarrassing or uncomfortable for
you. Okay, are we going to

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try this stale snack? Yes?
We should. Well, do you want

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to talk about the different varieties really
quick? Yeah? I don't really know

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what they are, but one is
the Chicago blend that you mentioned, So

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that's like cheese, popcorn and caramel. And then the other one is I

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think it's mostly like chocolate, like
dark chocolate and chocolate coated popcorn with some

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caramel corn in there. And I
think that's called like hot cocoa blend.

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And that's the one anymore. Yeah, that's the one that's just available at

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Christmas time. We've talked about this
before, but it is. It's a

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great gift. This is actually a
gift that someone bought for us and we

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love it. It's great. Normally
it would be gone by now. I'm

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not sure why it still is around
our cover, but we've had a lot

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of treats at our house. I
think, yeah, no surprise, I

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like to make treats. Let's take
a quick break and have some Why have

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we not eaten that in four months? We've eaten some of it, like

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when we have a game night.
I've put it out before. Yeah,

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yeah, it's good. Yeah,
it wasn't as still as I thought.

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And the chocolate, it's really it's
really quite tasty. Back in the day,

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like when you would go to Chicago
for a weekend, you could only

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get Garrett Actually, I think we've
said Garretts. It's actually Garrett without the

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s popcorn, and you would just
load up when you went into the city.

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But now you can get it a
lot of places. I think they're

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in a few airports, and there
is a store in the mall that's not

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too far from our house. Yeah
you say it like in Chicago you would

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have to wait, like the line
would be around the block. Yeah right,

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yeah, yeah, good stuff,
good stuff. Right, thank you.

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I'm sorry. I was. I'm
still my go on strike. Though.

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I think you could do it.
I don't blame me. Think you

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could do it a little better.
I could. I could too, though

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I think we haven't been baking quite
as much. Yeah, I've got I've

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got something in mind for my next
episode. That's what you've been saying.

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Tell us about your case today.
All right, Well, today's case is

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about the murder of Robert O du
Bain in Chicago in nineteen ninety three,

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in the Bucktown neighborhood of Chicago,
which I had never heard of before.

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But do you know buck House where
our friends lived? Is it? It

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could be? It's it's near Wrigley, which I know is where our friends

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lived, but I never knew the
name of the area. So our friends,

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who aren't married anymore and who don't
live in Chicago anymore, they're the

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friends that we met through. Yeah, we met at their wedding. That's

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right. We owe them. We
owe them a lot. This case was

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recommended by our friend Kelly, so
shout out to Kelly. Thanksanks for introducing

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us to this case. On Saturday
evening, September twenty fifth of nineteen ninety

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three, in the trendy Bucktown neighborhood
of Chicago, thirty one year old Robert

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Odubain stepped from his house into the
garage. Walking toward his car. He

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didn't see the figure dressed all in
black, come out from a hiding place

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in the garage and raise a gun
at him. The first shot hit Robert

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in the neck, the second one
to the head. As Robert lay on

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the floor, neighbors heard the two
gun shots, followed quickly by the sound

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of a car speeding away. Someone
called nine to one one and the police

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arrived to find the garage door open
and Robert Odubain lying dead in a pool

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of blood. Robert's jeep Wrangler was
gone, along with his wallet and keys,

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so the first thought was a carjacking, But when the car was found

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parked on the street just a few
blocks from the crime scene, the carjacking

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theory no longer added up. A
carjacker wouldn't have left it so nearby.

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It seemed like a targeted hit.
Was it someone wanting revenge a disscrunold employee.

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Police would need to delve into Robert's
life and relationships to figure out who

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had a motive to kill him in
cold blood. Robert was born Robert Koran

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in nineteen sixty two in Chicago,
the oldest of five kids. There isn't

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a lot of information about Robert's background, but he was described by friends and

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family as highly independent, a hard
worker, if perhaps a little unfocused,

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but overall a good dude, fun
and charismatic. He was always searching and

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always reinventing himself. Perhaps that's why
he changed his name at some point from

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Robert Koran to Robert o'dubain odu bain, being a Gaelic derivative of Devane,

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which was his mother's maiden name.
Interesting one story I heard about him is

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that he decided at age twenty to
sell all of his possessions and walk to

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Alaska. There was no word on
whether he actually followed through or not.

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I would guess not because I did
the math and it would take about one

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hundred and fifty days walking eight hours
a day to get from Chicago to Alaska,

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So guessing he didn't actually do that. But still he seemed like he

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was always up for adventure and looking
for something to do that would be different,

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and you know, kind of reinventing
himself all the time. He was

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described as a casual, cheenes and
flannel kind of guy like you, exactly

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like me, but he reinvented that
aspect of himself as well. After he

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met eighteen year old Katherine Saw at
the health club where they worked in nineteen

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eighty seven, they started dating and
he began dressing in three piece suits to

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be who Catherine wanted him to be. Oh. Catherine Saw was born in

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May of nineteen sixty nine and sold
South Korea. Her father, Ronald,

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was a banker and her mother,
Elizabeth, was a pharmacist. She had

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an older brother, but when Catherine
was three and her brother was eight,

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he had a tragic accident where he
fell from the railing at a friend's house

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and died. Catherine's father was very
traditional in the sense that the man of

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the house was the bos us and
the children and his wife were subservient to

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him. He was desperate to have
another boy and gave Catherine's mom an ultimatum,

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you either give me another son or
I'm divorcing you. On January twelfth,

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nineteen seventy four, Andrew Saw was
born January twelve, Are born on

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my birthday? It's weird. Great
day. In nineteen seventy six, when

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Catherine was seven and Andrew was two, the family emigrated to the United States,

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settling in the northwest side of Chicago, where Ronald opened a convenience store.

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Is the only boy. Andrew was
the golden child of the family while

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Catherine was now secondary. Here's Andrew
talking about that. Catherine was more or

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less ostracized because she was the girl, and they focused most of their touch

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on to me. I think Catherine
Almo always resented that because she always chose

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to rebel. So if mom and
dad wanted something done, I did it

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without a without question. But Catherine
said, well, I'm going to question,

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and I'm going to ask why.
I want to go back just a

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second to where Ronald told his wife
you give me his son or else.

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Yeah, I mean, how seems
a little extreme. She didn't have a

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lot of control over that. Yeah, I kind of wonder where that came

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from, to be honest with you, like, who would have told that

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story? So I question it a
little bit. But yeah, as you'll

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learn more about Ronald as we go
forward, he was not the nicest man

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in the world. As a child, Andrew lived up to the high expectations

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of his parents as the golden child. He studied hard, did well in

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school, and loved his mother and
father. After school, he would go

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to his dad's convenience store to help
out and act as a translator for his

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father, then go home and do
his homework. Catherine rebelled against her father's

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strict nature and traditional Korean values.
She was happy to be an American and

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wanted to do American things like go
hang out at the mall with her friends

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and date American boys. While her
schoolwork suffered, she and her father would

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get into terrible fights, and Ronald
would beat her. Here's Andrew talking about

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that, and one particularly frightening fight, he made it abundantly clear that he

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did not like her. He said, no, you're not my daughter.

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You know. He beat her consistently. He's very old school Korean. He

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said, you know what, this
is how it's going to be done,

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and this is my house. You
will abide by my rules. And Catherine,

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and the rebellious teenager said no,
I'm not. My father came home

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one day. He picked up the
phone. It was some Latino guy and

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he's talking to where's your daughter?
And my father lost it. He's like,

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what are you doing? You know, come to you, come to

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America, you become a ward.
He was arguing my sister and he was

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slapping around her a little bit,
and then Catherine had a moment, I

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get yourself bravery, and she reached
across my father and scratched his chest like

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this, and my father had a
T shirt ripped and he was bleeding across

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his chest. My father saw the
blood and he just lost it. He

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lost it. He grabbed her,
He grabbed the jug of gasoline, and

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he just doused both of them.
And he reached into his pockets, grabbed

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the lighters, trying to flick the
lighter, get the flint going. He

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couldn't get it started. Gotcha your
job, Let's die together. And my

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mom, she heard all the commotion, ran back. She grabbed them.

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She pulled the light out of his
hand, and she's say, oh,

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you know, what have we done? This is not our daughter. Oh

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my goodness, I know. Isn't
that a terrifying story? That's horrible.

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I'm so glad the lighter didn't light. Oh my goodness. In nineteen eighty

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five, when Catherine was sixteen and
Andrew was eleven, their dad, Ronald,

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was diagnosed with stomach cancer. Andrew
was devastated and was a NonStop fixture

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at his father's bedside in the hospital. There was even an article published in

205
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a Korean newspaper with a picture of
Andrew the good Son sitting by his father's

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bed with a string tied from his
hand to his father's so he would know

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if his dad needed anything, even
if he was too weak to speak.

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After Ronald passed away, Elizabeth needed
a source of income to support the family.

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She tried but failed to pass the
test she would need to practice as

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a pharmacist in the US, so
instead she opened a dry cleaning business in

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Evanston, Illinois, where she worked
long hours, six days a week.

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Just like he did with his father
at the convenience store, Andrew would spend

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00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:24.960
whatever time he could at the dry
cleaning business, helping out his mother.

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00:14:24.919 --> 00:14:30.120
Elizabeth wasn't quite as strict with Catherine
as Ronald had been, but the two

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00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:33.440
still had their run ins, mostly
about Catherine dating boys who weren't Korean.

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00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:39.080
Catherine pretty much did her own thing, coming and going as she pleased and

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00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:43.399
going out four to five nights a
week. She barely graduated from high school,

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00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:46.480
so she's like sixteen when her dad
died. I think right around that.

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00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:52.559
A couple of months after she turned
eighteen, Catherine met and started dating

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00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:56.639
Robert o'dubain, who was twenty five
at the time. He was the manager

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00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:58.799
of a health club and she had
a job there as a personal trainer.

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00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:03.720
And then about two months after that, tragedy again struck the Saw family.

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On the morning of October sixth,
nineteen eighty seven, a customer came into

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the dry cleaning business and discovered Elizabeth's
body in the back under a pile of

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00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:20.679
clothes. The autopsy determined that she
had been stabbed thirty seven times sometime between

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00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:24.320
seven am when she opened the shop
at nine am when her body was found.

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00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:28.919
So a really really brutal attack thirty
seven times. That's a lie.

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00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:33.639
Yeah, it's really really horrible.
Would that be a crime of passion?

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00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:37.799
You would think Elizabeth's wallet was missing
and the cash drawer was opened with no

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00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:41.360
money in it, so it at
first appeared to be a robbery. But

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00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:46.600
as you so astutely pointed out,
because of the thirty seven stab wounds,

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Evanston police evolved their theory over time
to believe that this was a crime of

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00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:54.639
passion. Someone coming in to rob
an establishment wants to get in and out

234
00:15:54.679 --> 00:15:58.879
as quickly as possible, not spend
that much time stabbing someone and then cover

235
00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:04.279
up the body. Katherine and Andrew
were both looked on as possible suspects at

236
00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:08.799
the time. Andrew was ruled out
quickly, and as for Katherine, her

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00:16:08.840 --> 00:16:14.960
boyfriend Robert o'dubain said that she was
with him. The investigation stalled and the

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00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:19.600
case remained unsolved. Catherine became the
legal guardian of Andrew, who was now

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00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:25.120
thirteen. His older sister was now
the only family that Andrew had left.

240
00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:30.440
Elizabeth's estate, which included a life
insurance policy, was worth eight hundred thousand

241
00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:33.279
dollars, but it was all left
to Andrew as the man of the family,

242
00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:38.360
with none actually going to Catherine.
Isn't that crazy thirteen? Yeah,

243
00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:42.639
but as the guardian, she had
full access to the money, so she

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00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:48.360
really did get the money. But
I think as the only son, that

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00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:51.519
was just the way it was done, as you leave your money to the

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00:16:51.559 --> 00:16:55.240
son, which is not at all
fair. Soon after Elizabeth died, Robert

247
00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:59.879
moved in with Catherine and Andrew,
with the three forming a makeshift family unit.

248
00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:04.200
Robert and Andrew formed a strong bond, with Robert becoming Andrew's male role

249
00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:08.319
model. When Andrew was old enough
to start driving, he and Robert fixed

250
00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:11.920
up an old VW. Robert taught
him how to drive a stick shift and

251
00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:17.319
how to change the oil. Robert
and Katherine not only shacked up together,

252
00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:21.119
they also went into business together.
Shacked up together? Is that a quaint?

253
00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:23.680
Is that an old fashioned term?
If you ever listened to doctor Laura,

254
00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:27.000
that's what she used to I don't
know why I used to listen to

255
00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:33.240
doctor Laura. Well, Andrew,
Robert and Catherine did shack up together,

256
00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:37.680
but they also went into business together. They used the money from Elizabeth's estate

257
00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:41.480
to buy houses, rehab them,
and then flip them for a profit,

258
00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:45.319
and they did pretty well. That's
great. In nineteen ninety one, with

259
00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:48.839
some of the money they earned,
Robert and Catherine bought a two flat on

260
00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:53.480
North Hermitage Avenue in the fashionable Bucktown
neighborhood for one hundred and seventeen thousand dollars.

261
00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:57.440
Do you know what a too flat
is? Like a duplex? Yeah?

262
00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:00.680
I wasn't familiar with that. I
guess it's such a I didn't realize

263
00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:04.039
that. But it's basically what you
would call a duplex in other parts of

264
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:08.119
the country. But they call it
two flat in Chicago. Basically a two

265
00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:14.279
story building with legal apartment on each
floor. Gotcha. They remodeled the two

266
00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:18.480
flat. They added sunken floors and
an impressive thirty five foot living room atrium,

267
00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:22.319
and then the three of them moved
in. The dwelling is now estimated

268
00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:27.359
by Zillo to be worth about one
point three million dollars nice. In nineteen

269
00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:33.079
ninety two, Catherine and Robert opened
a night club together called Club Metropolis in

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00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:37.759
one of Chicago's northern suburbs. They
ran the club together and it was very

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00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:41.880
successful in the beginning. So they
were very industrious. Yeah, they were,

272
00:18:41.960 --> 00:18:45.519
for sure. Andrew struggled with the
losses of both his mother and father

273
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:48.319
in such a short time. His
sister was now his guardian, but they

274
00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:56.680
had their battles. Here's Andrew.
I'm thirteen years old. My father abandoned

275
00:18:56.680 --> 00:19:02.440
me, my mother had left me. I hated my life, I hated

276
00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:07.480
God, hated my sister. My
opinions no longer mattered, and how the

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00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:14.359
house was run because Catherine was in
charge. Now Catherine was my guardian.

278
00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:18.720
There was one drawn out physical fight
I had with my sister where it just

279
00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:22.480
escalated into an explosion. I said, you're nobody to me, you know.

280
00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:25.559
I told her that. You know
I'm still here. I'm at the

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00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:26.799
head of the house. So she's
like, no, you're not. This

282
00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:30.920
is my house. You know you're
as a kid. She started hitting me.

283
00:19:30.519 --> 00:19:33.599
I grabbed her. I remember that, grabbing her and holding her,

284
00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:37.640
and she bit into my ribs.
She bit into my ribs and I let

285
00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:41.200
her go. I said, what's
wrong with you? I wanted to hit

286
00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:44.279
her, but I couldn't imaged to
my sister, and first and foremost,

287
00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:45.599
she's a woman, so I wouldn't
lay a hand in her. I punched

288
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:49.160
my hand through the glass window,
and I remember my hands started bleeding,

289
00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:52.400
and she said, got out of
my house. And I remember running away

290
00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:59.119
that night some I made it to
Peterson Park. I remember it was like

291
00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:03.440
snowflakes. Her fore down and I'm
like, what do you do? Either

292
00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:07.680
accept her as my guardian or go
to foster care. I guess that was

293
00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:15.880
my other choice. I came home
and I walked in or she opened the

294
00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:19.480
door, and we had a talk. She's like and she had calmed down

295
00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:22.920
to she's like, she's like,
I love you, You're all I have

296
00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:26.559
love too. And I told her, I said, what are we going

297
00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:30.039
to do about She's like, I
think at that time she told me be

298
00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:33.200
a kid. It was a mixture
of two things. It was a bit.

299
00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:36.599
It was a level of apprehension to
let go of what I knew to

300
00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:41.000
be what my parents wanted me to
do. But it was altho cathartic because

301
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:45.039
I let everything out. I didn't
have to worry about where the next rent

302
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:47.920
payment was going to be. I
didn't have to worry about who was going

303
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:49.799
to cook dinner. I didn't have
to worry about taking care of the house.

304
00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:52.920
It was just I could go to
school and have some fun with friends.

305
00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:59.720
I could actually live a life as
a child again. And for a

306
00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:03.799
moment like that, I really love
my sister. I think it's really interesting

307
00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:07.279
because I think, you know,
up until that point, he had been

308
00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:10.680
you know, he had so much
pressure on him to be the perfect child,

309
00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:14.119
and you know, you could say
that his parents put him ahead of

310
00:21:14.119 --> 00:21:17.119
his sister. But at the same
time, with that came all this pressure,

311
00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:19.680
and I think all of a sudden
he felt that, like, oh,

312
00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:23.039
I can actually be a kid and
do things that kids do rather than

313
00:21:23.160 --> 00:21:27.079
just you know, work to support
my parents all the time, to be

314
00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:30.519
the perfect child all the time.
It's it's tough. That's a lot of

315
00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:34.480
pressure to put on someone and to
be raising, you know, as Catherine

316
00:21:34.599 --> 00:21:38.200
raising her little brother, that must
have been really challenging too, because I

317
00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:41.680
mean, she's still, you know, a very young adult with all the

318
00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:47.279
pressures of raising her brother, and
it sounds like a tough situation. Yeah.

319
00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:51.599
After that talk, Andrew realized he
could be a kid instead of taking

320
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:55.920
the weight of all the duties and
obligations he felt towards his parents. As

321
00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:59.279
he got older and started high school, he seemed to be thriving with the

322
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:03.640
additional free he had. He attended
an exclusive private school, the Loyola Academy

323
00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:08.359
in Wilmet. He played football and
got involved in student politics, getting elected

324
00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:14.480
student body president in consecutive years,
but he never opened up to anyone at

325
00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:17.759
school. He never shared the tragedy
of losing both of his parents at a

326
00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:21.759
young age, and he didn't tell
people about his difficult home life. He

327
00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:26.359
later described himself as a lonely popular
kid. He was awarded a full rite

328
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:33.240
academic scholarship from Providence College in Rhode
Island, which is currently ranked number one

329
00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:37.200
out of one hundred and seventy eight
regional universities in the North Region by US

330
00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:42.039
News and World Report. He planned
to study economics in the Japanese language.

331
00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:48.240
It was right near the beginning of
Andrew's sophomore year at Providence that Robert was

332
00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:52.400
shot and killed. That is a
poortant kid. I mean he really went

333
00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:56.440
through a lot he did. Once
the police ruled out a random carjacking in

334
00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:00.240
Robert's murder, they started learning as
much as they could about his personal life

335
00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:04.440
and his business. They started by
talking to his live in girlfriend, Catherine

336
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:10.240
Suh. She came in for an
interview and seemed very upset. At the

337
00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:12.519
time of Robert's killing, she had
been out on a date with another guy.

338
00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:18.160
As she explained to investigators, she
and Robert had an understanding that they

339
00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:22.400
could see other people. The guy
she was out with was named Pete Ellis,

340
00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:26.000
and he confirmed that he was with
Catherine at a restaurant bar called Glen

341
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:33.000
View House, about seventeen miles away
from the crime scene. Detectives asked Catherine

342
00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:37.119
if she had any theories about who
would want Robert dead. She said that

343
00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:40.279
he had dated a lot of women. Maybe it was one of them,

344
00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:42.960
or it could have been related to
his gambling. She said he gambled a

345
00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:47.519
lot and he had lost a lot
of money. Maybe someone was after him

346
00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:51.359
to collect because of the money he
had lost. She said that they were

347
00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:56.240
planning to sell their business and go
their separate ways. After the interview ended

348
00:23:56.279 --> 00:24:00.680
and Catherine left, the detectives realized
she never asked them how how Robert had

349
00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:03.720
been killed, which was a red
flag. She was immediately a person of

350
00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:07.839
interest, but at the same time, her background was completely clean. She

351
00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:12.519
had no priors, and they'd never
been called out for any domestic disputes between

352
00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:18.240
her and Robert. A couple of
other interesting things the police learned early in

353
00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:22.720
the investigation that made them want to
take a closer look at Catherine. First,

354
00:24:22.200 --> 00:24:26.880
they discovered that Robert had life insurance, a two hundred and fifty thousand

355
00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:32.759
dollars policy with Catherine as the beneficiary. They also learned about the unsolved murder

356
00:24:32.759 --> 00:24:37.559
of Catherine's mother six years earlier.
That certainly piqued their interest, especially the

357
00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:42.079
fact that Catherine had been a suspect
but Robert had been her alibi. The

358
00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:47.640
next step for police was to interview
employees at Club Metropolis to learn what they

359
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:52.480
could about that aspect of Robert's life. There was some talk about drugs being

360
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:56.200
used and sold in the bar,
and some possible gambling activity, but mostly

361
00:24:56.240 --> 00:25:00.200
they learned more about Catherine and the
nature of her and road Robert's relationship.

362
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:04.880
All of the employees they spoke to
loved Robert. He was a good guy.

363
00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:08.680
He got along with everyone. Katherine, on the other hand, people

364
00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:12.720
said that she was just plain mean. An example, one time, a

365
00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:17.079
customer ordered a wine spritzer, but
they asked for it to be served in

366
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:22.119
a rocks glass, basically a short
tumbler or an old fashioned glass. Normally,

367
00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:25.720
a wine spritzer would be served in
a wineglass, but if the customer

368
00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:27.960
asks for it in a different type
of glass, you do what you're asked.

369
00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:33.359
Customer is always right right. As
the bartender was pouring the spritzer for

370
00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:36.759
the customer, Catherine came up and
started screaming at him, telling him he

371
00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:40.640
was fired for serving the drink that
way. She stomped off, and then

372
00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:44.119
Robert stepped in, telling the bartender
don't worry about it. You're fine,

373
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:48.440
You're not fired. Catherine would also
try to get the staff to gossip about

374
00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:52.799
each other, which eventually caused employees
to lose trust in her and avoid her

375
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:57.119
as much as possible. On the
plus side, they said Catherine had style.

376
00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:02.160
She was always dressed to the nine, wearing all black with red lipstick,

377
00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:06.400
high heels and a fur coat,
and she was an excellent negotiator.

378
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:11.000
She would meet with liquor salesmen and
she would pour them all shots of vodka

379
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:14.720
all the way around, but she
would have her bartender pour water into her

380
00:26:14.759 --> 00:26:18.079
glass to remain sober while the liquor
salesman would get drunk, and she would

381
00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:22.440
get them down to the price that
she wanted. Pretty smart, really.

382
00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:27.079
The police also learned that Catherine and
Robert's relationship had evolved over the year or

383
00:26:27.079 --> 00:26:30.440
so since they had opened the bar. In the beginning, they were more

384
00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:34.759
lovey dovey, but over time it
became all business and they started fighting more.

385
00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:40.119
It seems like things were getting tighter
financially as well. For example,

386
00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:44.519
they closed the kitchen at a certain
point and they stopped serving food to reduce

387
00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:49.000
their expenses. They also learned from
employees that Robert had a recent girlfriend who

388
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:53.640
came into the bar sometimes named Maria
La Boy. They called her up and

389
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:56.920
asked her to come in for an
interview, and what she told them would

390
00:26:56.920 --> 00:27:03.200
break the case wide open. Hmm. Did Robert and Catherine have an open

391
00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:07.279
relationship the whole time or just towards
the end. I'm not even sure they

392
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:10.160
had an open relationship. Toward the
end, I think they were in the

393
00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:14.559
process of splitting up and they were
both seeing other people because of that.

394
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:18.039
But I think when she told them
they had an open relationship, she may

395
00:27:18.039 --> 00:27:23.480
have been making that up as like
some sort of alibi for herself. Well,

396
00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:27.160
I think to make it sound like
she and Robert we were fine,

397
00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:30.559
Like they weren't, you know,
splitting apart. They were together, but

398
00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:33.559
they just had an open relationship,
which is why she was dating someone else

399
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:37.480
and why he might have seen other
people as well. Okay, we'll be

400
00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:48.839
right back after a break. Before
the break, I left you on a

401
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:52.000
cliffhanger, and I talked about the
fact that there was a girl that Robert

402
00:27:52.039 --> 00:27:56.079
was dating named Maria La Boy who
came into the bar sometimes, and that

403
00:27:56.200 --> 00:28:00.759
the police interviewed her, which helped
break the case open. Maria had been

404
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:04.160
on the phone with Robert just minutes
before he was shot and killed. While

405
00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:08.079
they were talking, his call waiting
clicked and he asked her to hold on.

406
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:11.880
When he came back a minute later, he told Maria that it was

407
00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:18.359
Catherine calling, saying her car had
broken down in Lincoln Park and asked if

408
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:22.119
he would come pick her up.
Fun fact, I was born in Lincoln

409
00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:23.759
Park. Wow, that is a
fun fact. Sorry, it's not all

410
00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:29.400
about me. Catherine hadn't told the
police anything about this call or about her

411
00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:33.200
car breaking down. In fact,
she said the last time she had spoken

412
00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:37.079
with Robert was earlier that afternoon.
They checked phone records and found there was

413
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:41.319
a call to Robert's phone from the
Glen View House tavern, where Catherine had

414
00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:47.519
been with Pete Ellis, and the
Glen View House tavern was nowhere near Lincoln

415
00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:51.640
Park. The call was at six
fifty five PM, just a minute or

416
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:55.759
two before Robert was shot and killed. Had Catherine called to lure him out

417
00:28:55.799 --> 00:29:00.119
to the garage where someone was waiting
to kill him. Catherine was now the

418
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:04.640
main suspect, but someone else must
have pulled the trigger. Looking through phone

419
00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:08.440
records, they saw a number coming
up a lot in the two weeks leading

420
00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:15.039
up to Robert's death. It was
Andrew SU's number at Providence College. Catherine

421
00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:18.039
had called her brother sixty six times
over the course of those two weeks.

422
00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:23.440
When they tried to reach Andrew at
college, he wasn't there. They learned

423
00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:27.720
that Andrew had signed out and left
campus the morning of Robert's murder and signed

424
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:33.000
back the next day. His roommate
said that Andrew told him he had to

425
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:37.319
go home to take care of some
family business. As the police were narrowing

426
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.759
in on Catherine and Andrew, he
took off and never returned. To Providence

427
00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:47.920
College, investigators brought Catherine in for
another interview. When confronted with the evidence

428
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:51.720
of the phone call to Robert minutes
before he was shot, she said,

429
00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:55.079
in fact, she did call him, It must have slipped her mind during

430
00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:57.960
the first interview. She called to
warn him that his life was in danger

431
00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:03.519
because a colle Lumbian guy named Wan, who was tied to organize crime,

432
00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:07.440
was coming after him. She didn't
have any evidence to back up this claim.

433
00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:10.839
It's quite a story, huh.
There's this guy named Wan who's coming

434
00:30:10.839 --> 00:30:15.400
to kill you. But did they
have any organized crime ties? Not that

435
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:18.200
I know of. I mean,
like I mentioned earlier, there was some

436
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:22.039
gambling activity in the bar that was
going on, and I think he did

437
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:26.640
probably gamble, But I never read
anything about any organized crime. I think

438
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:30.160
she was just making stuff up.
Did he have a gambling addiction or was

439
00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:33.839
it just kind of a I don't
I never read anything that led me to

440
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:37.440
believe he had a gambling addiction.
I think she was just trying to make

441
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:41.000
up stories to make it, you
know, to give some plausible reason why

442
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:44.960
someone might have killed him. Yeah. Sensing that things weren't going well,

443
00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:48.559
Catherine asked the detective interviewing her how
much money it would cost to just make

444
00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:53.799
this whole thing go away. Oh
boy, surely there was some amount she

445
00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:59.000
could pay the detective to sweep this
under the rug. Right, The officer

446
00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:03.000
wasn't buying it. Instead, he
arrested Catherine for the murder of Robert O

447
00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:08.119
de Bain. Can you imagine?
I can't imagine. Let's just be reasonable

448
00:31:08.200 --> 00:31:11.400
here, Like, I mean,
there's some people you can bribe, like

449
00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:17.400
a waiter, but not a police
officer. Maybe for a speeding ticket,

450
00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:22.640
but probably not for a murder.
It was now November tenth, nineteen ninety

451
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:27.200
three, six weeks after Robert's murder. Catherine was in custody and Andrew's whereabouts

452
00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:32.799
were unknown. On that day,
November tenth, Andrew bought a plane ticket

453
00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:37.039
from la to Dallas. Because he
paid for the one way ticket in cash

454
00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:41.160
and was traveling alone with no luggage, it triggered an alert with the Drug

455
00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:45.640
Enforcement Agency. Really yeah, I
didn't realize that was a thing that you

456
00:31:45.640 --> 00:31:49.200
would get flagged by the DEA if
you were traveling alone or paying with cash

457
00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:55.680
or things like that. So pretty
interesting. Two DEA agents were waiting to

458
00:31:55.799 --> 00:31:59.720
question Andrew when he got off the
plane in Dallas. They didn't know that

459
00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:02.279
police in Chicago were looking for him
related to a murder. They just thought

460
00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:07.160
the guy might be a drug smuggler. He told the agents that he was

461
00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:10.279
actually on his way to Chicago to
bail his sister out of jail. They

462
00:32:10.279 --> 00:32:13.920
asked if they could look in his
bag. He said yes, and they

463
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:19.119
found sixty five thousand dollars in cash, along with a wallet containing Robert Odu

464
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:23.519
Bain's ID. The DEA agents contacted
the Chicago police and found that they had

465
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:28.920
been looking for Andrew, so they
put him on a flight back to Chicago.

466
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:31.400
When he landed in Chicago, the
police were waiting for him. One

467
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:35.960
of the officers said that Andrew seemed
like a broken man when he got off

468
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:39.519
the plane, crying and hugging the
officers who met him. He was tired

469
00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:44.440
of running and lying and was ready
to tell the truth. So I mentioned

470
00:32:44.440 --> 00:32:47.400
he was flying from la to Dallas. I don't know why he was in

471
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:52.240
LA. I think he was just
on the run, going wherever he could.

472
00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:55.319
So I don't really know what brought
him on the journey that he went

473
00:32:55.359 --> 00:33:00.359
on. But they had him now
back in Chicago. Andrews about, Yes,

474
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:02.480
he was a sophomore at college,
so I think he was twenty.

475
00:33:04.039 --> 00:33:07.720
So, even though he broke down
at the airport and was hugging the officers

476
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:09.400
and said he wanted to tell the
truth, when they took him back to

477
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:13.559
the station and sat him down in
the interview room, he clammed up.

478
00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:17.599
The cops said, Andrew, we
know exactly what happened. Catherine wanted Robert

479
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:21.640
dead, and she made you feel
like it was your duty to help her.

480
00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:25.039
Andrew still wouldn't talk, and so
the police brought out photos of his

481
00:33:25.160 --> 00:33:29.920
mother's body at the crime scene,
which she had been stabbed thirty seven times,

482
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:31.920
and said, look, this is
what your sister did to your mother.

483
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:36.880
Are you sure you want to cover
for her? This ended up breaking

484
00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:40.319
Andrew. He started sobbing uncontrollably,
and when he calmed down, he told

485
00:33:40.359 --> 00:33:45.079
them everything He said that in the
weeks leading up to Robert's murder. Catherine

486
00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:50.359
called him over and over. She
told him that Robert was physically abusing her

487
00:33:50.839 --> 00:33:54.119
and that he was gambling away all
of their money. She told Andrew that

488
00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:58.279
the only way out of it was
to kill him, and that he had

489
00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:01.079
to be the man of the family
and protect his sister. Later, he

490
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:05.559
also said that Catherine told him Robert
was the one who killed their mother.

491
00:34:06.279 --> 00:34:10.280
Here's Andrew talking about that conversation with
his sister. I was leaving for college

492
00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:15.480
in a matter of weeks, and
at that point she looked at me.

493
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:19.639
She's quiet, and there you see
almost a calm in her face where she's

494
00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:24.000
she wasn't herself, and she's like, I had to tell you something before

495
00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:28.960
mom died. After Robert got fired. We had a long conversation about money,

496
00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:32.840
she said, Robert and I.
I was talking to Robert half heartedly

497
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:37.199
about how much, how everything will
be final once my mom passed away.

498
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:42.280
Shortly thereafter, my mother came up
dead. She said, I didn't ask

499
00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:45.960
him to it, but he did
it. So basically, she was telling

500
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:51.000
Andrew that Robert killed their mother and
that she was actually Robert's alibi, which

501
00:34:51.079 --> 00:34:53.880
is why she said they couldn't go
to the police about this because she would

502
00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:58.800
be in trouble as well, and
so that's how she convinced Andrew to kill

503
00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:04.840
Robert. Catherine was the only family
that Andrew had left. She told him,

504
00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:07.440
you have to do this, you
have to do this for our family,

505
00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:10.559
and eventually he became convinced that it
was his duty to kill Robert.

506
00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:15.280
Catherine bought Andrew a plane ticket under
an assumed name, and he flew to

507
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:21.000
Chicago on September twenty fifth, nineteen
ninety three. Catherine picked him up at

508
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:24.079
O'Hare and had him changed into all
black clothing. She took him to the

509
00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:29.079
house and gave him a paper bag
that contained a gun and his plane ticket

510
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:34.199
back to Providence. He hid in
the garage for over four hours until Catherine's

511
00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:37.880
phone call lured Robert out of the
house to the garage. Then he shot

512
00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:43.119
Robert in cold blood, firing the
second bullet to be certain he was dead,

513
00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:47.079
just as his sister had instructed him. Andrew then took off in Robert's

514
00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:52.159
cheap drove a few blocks parked on
the street, and hailed a taxi to

515
00:35:52.199 --> 00:35:55.760
take him back to O'Hare and back
to Providence. Before he was arrested.

516
00:35:55.840 --> 00:36:00.840
Andrew was able to bail his sister
out of jail. Her bond had been

517
00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:04.679
set at one hundred and fifty thousand
dollars and to get released, she only

518
00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:07.760
had to post ten percent of that, which to me seems really low for

519
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:13.440
someone accused of first degree murder that
you only need fifteen thousand dollars to get

520
00:36:13.480 --> 00:36:16.039
out of jail. This might be
a controversial take, but I think if

521
00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:21.039
you're in prison for a first degree
murder that maybe you don't get out on

522
00:36:21.079 --> 00:36:23.679
bail. Yeah. I don't think
that shouldn't be controversial to me either,

523
00:36:23.719 --> 00:36:29.519
because if you're facing a life sentence
without parole, there's such an incentive for

524
00:36:29.559 --> 00:36:34.840
you to run and flee. Absolutely. So Andrew was able to speak to

525
00:36:34.920 --> 00:36:37.800
Catherine, and he told her that
he had confessed to the police. She

526
00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:42.960
was not happy about this, and
so she actually refused to bail Andrew out

527
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:45.440
of jail. She said it was
because her money was tied up in other

528
00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:50.760
things. But Andrew sat in jail
for two months until a judge lowered his

529
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:54.440
bond from five hundred thousand dollars to
two hundred and fifty thousand dollars and some

530
00:36:54.559 --> 00:37:00.159
friends raised the money for him out
on bail. Catherine she reinvented herself and

531
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:05.679
started a brand new life while she
was awaiting trial. She started calling herself

532
00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:09.960
Kasha Kane and moved into a luxury
condo on Chicago's Lakefront, near Navy Pier.

533
00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:15.599
She told people she was a consultant
and she also worked in real estate.

534
00:37:15.159 --> 00:37:20.360
She drove a Jaguar and started dating
a wealthy guy named Dave Nor.

535
00:37:21.039 --> 00:37:24.039
The two broke up after seven months, but they remained friends and spoke regularly

536
00:37:24.119 --> 00:37:30.119
after the breakup. In the months
leading up to her trial, Catherine showed

537
00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:34.119
up faithfully to every hearing, but
the day her murder trial was to begin

538
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:37.199
in September of nineteen ninety five,
her lawyer was sitting at the defense table

539
00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:42.639
all by himself. A few days
earlier, Catherine had gotten a book on

540
00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:46.159
how to Change Your Identity, sold
her Jaguar for eight thousand dollars, and

541
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:52.719
then vanished. The judge declared a
bond forfeiture and issued a warrant for her

542
00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:58.119
arrest. Catherine's absence did not stop
the trial from going forward, however.

543
00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:02.480
She was tried absse cenia, and
the jury only needed two hours to come

544
00:38:02.519 --> 00:38:07.360
back with a guilty verdict. The
judge sentenced her to life in prison with

545
00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:10.599
no possibility of parole. It turns
out, if you don't show up for

546
00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:15.519
your trial, the jury is more
likely to think that you're guilty. If

547
00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:19.880
the seat is empty, judge is
probably going to give you a harsher sentence

548
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:23.639
as well. Andrew was tried separately
right around the same time he opted for

549
00:38:23.719 --> 00:38:28.119
a bench trial. Should we talk
about what a bench trials? I think

550
00:38:28.119 --> 00:38:30.440
everyone probably knows. But that's when
you don't have a jury, The judge

551
00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:36.239
decides your fate. The judge found
him guilty and sentenced him to one hundred

552
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:39.679
years in prison, although that was
reduced to eighty years on appeal. With

553
00:38:39.800 --> 00:38:45.599
good behavior, that could potentially be
forty years. So the earliest Andrew would

554
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:50.320
be eligible for parole would be in
twenty thirty four, when he is sixty

555
00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:54.400
years old. Meanwhile, Catherine once
again started a new life for herself.

556
00:38:54.760 --> 00:38:59.360
A friend of hers had a condo
in Hawaii and was looking for a renter

557
00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:02.800
for the summer, about as far
away as from Chicago as she could get.

558
00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:08.320
Catherine adopted a new name based on
two of her favorite luxury retail stores

559
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:16.239
on Chicago's Magnificent Mile. She became
Tiffany Escatta. Tiffany from Tiffany and Company

560
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:22.599
Jewelry and Escata. I don't know
that brand. It was a high end

561
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:27.280
women's clothing store. Apparently it's no
closed. He closed a couple of years

562
00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:30.639
back. Maybe COVID got it.
Within a week or so of arriving in

563
00:39:30.679 --> 00:39:35.239
Hawaii, Catherine or Tiffany met a
new man. Kelly Beck, was one

564
00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:39.599
of Hawaii's best and most well known
triathletes. On September fifteenth, Kelly had

565
00:39:39.639 --> 00:39:45.159
just completed a ten mile training run
and was cooling off in an outdoor shower

566
00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:49.599
near the beach. Tiffany was checking
him out, and the two started flirting

567
00:39:49.639 --> 00:39:53.280
and then began dating. Tiffany avoided
talking too much about her background. Of

568
00:39:53.360 --> 00:39:58.639
course, she shared with Kelly that
she ran her family's business, that she

569
00:39:58.760 --> 00:40:02.480
lived in Miami's South Beach area and
also had homes in New York and Kansas

570
00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:07.639
City. She also told him that
she had a wealthy boyfriend back home named

571
00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:12.119
Robert, but she didn't want to
marry him because he was too dedicated to

572
00:40:12.199 --> 00:40:15.280
his job. She could really spin
a yarn couldn't she. After dating for

573
00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:20.280
just over a month, she convinced
Kelly to move with her to a high

574
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:23.360
rise apartment in Honolulu, something that
would be more in keeping with her high

575
00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:28.199
end taste as opposed to the condo
she was renting outside of the city.

576
00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:32.400
Shortly after they moved into the new
apartment, she paid cash for a gold

577
00:40:32.480 --> 00:40:37.079
BMW three twenty five. I she
was back to living the high life.

578
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:40.079
Where is she getting all this money? I think she had some saved up

579
00:40:40.119 --> 00:40:45.880
from the nightclub and all the houses
that they flipped. What does a gold

580
00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:49.880
BMW three twenty five, iye,
retail for. I'm not sure what it

581
00:40:49.880 --> 00:40:52.559
retails for, but I believe that
I read she paid eight thousand dollars.

582
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:57.119
It might have been used. Yeah. Well, and this was way back

583
00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:00.519
then too. It wasn't that long
ago. Yeah, but yeah, it

584
00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:05.480
definitely was used for that price right
back. Later described Tiffany as quote flirty,

585
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:08.639
charming, bubbly, funny, and
giggly. He called her his goddess,

586
00:41:08.679 --> 00:41:15.559
while she referred to him as Tarzan. Hearing people's pet names is very

587
00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:19.559
so cringy to me. But he
also saw her temper. One time,

588
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:22.719
she wanted a piece of jewelry.
It cost only thirty dollars, but Kelly

589
00:41:22.760 --> 00:41:25.960
refused to buy it for her,
and, as he later described it,

590
00:41:27.079 --> 00:41:32.400
she quote went totally mental on me. You know how women are, said

591
00:41:32.440 --> 00:41:37.800
nothing. After a few months of
being unable to locate Catherine, investigators turned

592
00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:43.840
to America's Most Wanted, which aired
a segment on her in January nineteen ninety

593
00:41:43.880 --> 00:41:46.880
six. When the episode aired in
Hawaii, Kelly was out picking up a

594
00:41:46.920 --> 00:41:52.960
pizza while Tiffany slash Catherine turned on
the TV and saw herself featured on the

595
00:41:53.400 --> 00:41:58.679
on America's Most Wanted. She must
have freaked out. When Kelly returned to

596
00:41:58.719 --> 00:42:02.239
the apartment with a pizza, he
notice she seemed agitated. The next morning,

597
00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:07.800
she packed a bag stole a sock
containing three thousand dollars from Kelly's chour.

598
00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:12.280
She took a eem to go to
get why that's a funny deal.

599
00:42:12.679 --> 00:42:15.360
Who doesn't keep three thousand dollars in
a sock in their sock drawer? That's

600
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:19.159
so funny. We're not sure where
she spent the next six weeks, but

601
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:23.920
she resurfaced on March eighth, when
she walked into the Honolulu YWCA at five

602
00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:28.679
am. She looked like she may
have been homeless. She was barefoot,

603
00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:32.039
with dirty clothes on, no makeup, and her hair was pulled back into

604
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:37.280
a messy ponytail. She used the
payphone in the YWCA lobby to make a

605
00:42:37.280 --> 00:42:40.920
collect call to her ex boyfriend,
Dave Norr. This is the guy that

606
00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:45.719
she had dated when she was out
on bail and using the identity Kasha Caine.

607
00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:50.800
She rambled on to Dave for two
hours and exhibited signs of being paranoid

608
00:42:50.840 --> 00:42:53.679
and delusional. She told him that
her phone was tapped and the police were

609
00:42:53.719 --> 00:42:58.559
trying to kill her, and that
she had been poisoned. On a separate

610
00:42:58.599 --> 00:43:02.840
phone line, Dave had a cowork
her contact the Honolulu police and convinced Catherine

611
00:43:02.880 --> 00:43:07.960
to speak with the officer. He
conferenced them together, but then Catherine got

612
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:12.599
nervous and threatened to hang up,
so Dave ended the call with the police.

613
00:43:12.639 --> 00:43:15.639
He kept Catherine on the line,
though, and his colleague made some

614
00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:20.559
more calls, finally reaching the Cook
County prosecutor, who was familiar with Catherine's

615
00:43:20.599 --> 00:43:24.320
case. He got on the line
with Catherine and seemed to calm her down.

616
00:43:24.679 --> 00:43:29.719
He persuaded her to turn herself into
the FBI, and separately, his

617
00:43:29.800 --> 00:43:34.719
staff reached out to the FBI field
office in Hawaii. Catherine told them she

618
00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:38.159
was at the YWCA, and that
was where FBI agents finally took her into

619
00:43:38.199 --> 00:43:43.880
custody, this time for good.
She appeared in a Cook County court in

620
00:43:43.920 --> 00:43:49.519
April of nineteen ninety six. Prosecutors
notified Robert Odubain's family so they could be

621
00:43:49.599 --> 00:43:53.039
present at the hearing and have some
closure since Catherine hadn't been at her trial.

622
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:58.480
The judge asked Katherine if there was
anything she'd like to say to Robert's

623
00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:01.880
family. She just looked that The
judge tight lipped and refused to even look

624
00:44:01.880 --> 00:44:07.639
at Robert's family members. There was
no remorse. After learning of Catherine's involvement

625
00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:12.880
in Robert's death. They took a
fresh look at Elizabeth SU's murder in their

626
00:44:12.920 --> 00:44:17.960
dry cleaning shop. As recently as
twenty seventeen, investigators retested crime scene evidence,

627
00:44:19.400 --> 00:44:22.880
hoping that new forensic testing techniques would
be able to show that Catherine was

628
00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:29.559
responsible, but to this day,
the case remains officially unsolved. Ah,

629
00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:35.320
that's horrible. Andrew at first refused
to believe that his sister killed their mother,

630
00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:38.239
but eventually he came to the conclusion
that she was most likely guilty.

631
00:44:39.239 --> 00:44:44.639
While Catherine's motive for killing Robert may
have been financial, it's more likely that

632
00:44:44.679 --> 00:44:49.199
she and Robert were going their separate
ways and Robert knew her deepest secret that

633
00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:52.199
she had killed her mother. She
couldn't have him out there with that information

634
00:44:52.440 --> 00:44:57.079
out of her control, and so
she decided that he had to be killed.

635
00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:00.639
She then manipulated her brother into committing
the act by taking advantage of his

636
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:06.679
strong sense of duty to family.
Andrew has shown remorse for his role in

637
00:45:06.760 --> 00:45:10.760
Robert o'dubain's murder. In an interview, he said, quote words cannot convey

638
00:45:10.880 --> 00:45:15.360
the level of remorse I have.
I fully empathize with the odubain family for

639
00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:20.320
their loss. I understand their pain
because I grappled with the agony of my

640
00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:24.280
mother's murder each and every day unquote. He wrote a formal apology letter to

641
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:30.760
Robert o'dubain's family. Robert's brother,
Kevin Kuran, has said that he believes

642
00:45:30.760 --> 00:45:35.280
Andrew is sincere, and he views
Catherine as the clear ringleader in his brother's

643
00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:38.760
murder. Andrew has said he still
loves his sister because she's family, but

644
00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:43.800
he now knows what she's capable of. He sent her a note after they

645
00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:46.719
were both in prison, saying quote, I'm still your brother. I'll always

646
00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:52.360
be here for you unquote. In
response, he received an envelope containing his

647
00:45:52.519 --> 00:45:57.079
note torn to pieces and a note
from Catherine that read quote, I don't

648
00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:00.079
know who you are. I don't
have a brother. Don't ever contact me

649
00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:06.559
again. Andrew has been a model
prisoner. He's worked several different jobs in

650
00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:10.480
prison, including volunteering in the hospice
unit to care for dying inmates. He's

651
00:46:10.519 --> 00:46:15.840
worked as a cook, groundskeeper,
recycling manager, and in the healthcare unit.

652
00:46:15.400 --> 00:46:22.719
He's also completed various rehabilitative programs and
college level courses. He's applied for

653
00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:27.719
clemency several times, citing his remorse, his exemplary record in prison, his

654
00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:30.800
upbringing, and his belief at the
time of the murder that Robert was beating

655
00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:36.840
his sister and that he was responsible
for their mother's death. Andrew has had

656
00:46:36.920 --> 00:46:40.679
strong support from the Korean American community
in his efforts to get released early.

657
00:46:42.440 --> 00:46:45.159
People in the community have assured the
courts that Andrew will have a job and

658
00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:51.239
a place to live if he was
paroled. Additionally, Robert's brother has chosen

659
00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:55.079
not to oppose these clemency requests,
although other family members have written letters in

660
00:46:55.119 --> 00:47:01.480
opposition. Those requests were all denied, but in twenty nineteen a new law

661
00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:07.280
was passed called the Illinois Youthful Parole
Law. The law guarantees that most people

662
00:47:07.320 --> 00:47:12.119
who commit crimes when they're under twenty
one will be eligible for parole at some

663
00:47:12.280 --> 00:47:16.880
point. Most people convicted for youthful
crimes can ask for hearings after ten years.

664
00:47:17.400 --> 00:47:22.480
If they're denied, they can ask
again at fifteen years and twenty years.

665
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:25.920
The law is an acknowledgment that the
brains of young people under twenty one

666
00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:30.400
are not yet fully developed, and
they lack the decision making abilities of more

667
00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:36.800
mature adults. The law wasn't retroactive
for people who committed crimes before it was

668
00:47:36.840 --> 00:47:42.280
passed, but it gave Andrew a
stronger argument for his early release, and

669
00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:46.559
sure enough, Andrew was granted early
release on January twenty sixth, twenty twenty

670
00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:52.000
four, just a couple months ago
after serving just over thirty years in prison.

671
00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:55.440
He's now fifty years old. He
said he wants to continue his college

672
00:47:55.559 --> 00:48:00.119
education and work with troubled youth in
the community. He said, quote,

673
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:05.679
I'll do well, I promise.
Besides the obvious goal of sharing quality time

674
00:48:05.719 --> 00:48:09.519
with my loved ones, I have
the goal of making a difference. Unquote.

675
00:48:09.840 --> 00:48:15.880
Not everyone is happy about Andrew's early
release. Robert Berlin, who prosecuted

676
00:48:15.920 --> 00:48:20.199
Andrew back in nineteen ninety five,
said, quote the fact that Andrew was

677
00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:23.960
released after serving just over thirty years
when he was required to serve forty for

678
00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:29.920
a cold, calculated, premeditated murder
is, in my opinion, an affront

679
00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:34.320
to justice and the memory of Robert
Odubain. I actually reached out to Andrew

680
00:48:34.400 --> 00:48:37.320
through his attorneys to see if he
would be willing to be interviewed for our

681
00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:40.119
podcast, but he declined. I
didn't know you did that. I thought

682
00:48:40.119 --> 00:48:44.280
I would spring it on you as
a surprise that I had interviewed this guy,

683
00:48:44.360 --> 00:48:47.360
but it didn't work out. So
a few things to talk about.

684
00:48:47.559 --> 00:48:52.679
First, do you think that Catherine
killed her mother? And do you think

685
00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:55.360
that Robert was also involved or that
he knew that she did it? I

686
00:48:55.400 --> 00:48:59.960
don't know. You research this case, not me. Let me ask you.

687
00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:04.199
Yeah, do you think that Catherine
killed her mother? I think she

688
00:49:04.280 --> 00:49:07.880
definitely killed her mother. Who else
would have had a motive, right,

689
00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:10.119
And the fact that it was a
crime of passion, that she was stabbed

690
00:49:10.119 --> 00:49:14.719
thirty seven times seven times. Yeah, that's you know, really, that's

691
00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:19.280
overkilled. Yeah, exactly. The
question that maybe is more interesting to me

692
00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:22.039
is whether Robert knew about it or
not. He was her alibi, so

693
00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:27.360
he must have known that he was
lying for her to the police. But

694
00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:30.440
whether he did that innocently, whether
he thought, yeah, you know,

695
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:35.000
I'm just helping her out here,
or whether he really believed she did or

696
00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:37.840
not. I don't know. Robert
seemed like a good guy, right,

697
00:49:37.159 --> 00:49:40.880
Yes, everything I read seemed like
he was a very good guy. And

698
00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:45.639
if he had known that Catherine killed
her mom, I don't know if he

699
00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:50.440
would have stayed with her unless she
had some sort of reason. She wasn't

700
00:49:50.480 --> 00:49:52.960
abused in her childhood, right I
yeah, I don't know. She might

701
00:49:53.000 --> 00:49:58.760
have told Robert a story like that
she did it because her mom was abusive.

702
00:49:58.840 --> 00:50:00.360
I don't. I don't know,
but it seems like he must have

703
00:50:00.519 --> 00:50:06.199
known deep in his heart of hearts. I think I remember reading There was

704
00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:09.679
a documentary made a few years ago
called The House of suh, and they

705
00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:14.039
interviewed a lot. All the clips
I played were from that documentary because they

706
00:50:14.039 --> 00:50:17.719
Andrew interviewed Andrew, and one that
I didn't play. He talked about a

707
00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:25.119
time when Robert came to him really
upset and said something about about Catherine and

708
00:50:25.159 --> 00:50:30.360
he knew each other's secrets or something
like that that made it sound like he

709
00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:35.119
did know that she did it.
Wow. Another thing I think is interesting

710
00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:38.559
to think about is what was Catherine's
real motive for killing Robert. Was it

711
00:50:38.760 --> 00:50:45.159
just purely money why or was it
because of the fact that she was trying

712
00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:49.559
to keep him from, you know, talking to the police after they broke

713
00:50:49.639 --> 00:50:52.360
up. And I don't think we'll
ever know the answer to that, but

714
00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:57.480
yeah, it's interesting to think about
both. Yeah, it could be she

715
00:50:57.559 --> 00:51:00.400
was. She seemed like very greedy, and I guess the fact she had

716
00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:05.639
a life insurance policy on Robert with
her as the beneficiary, you know,

717
00:51:05.800 --> 00:51:07.960
maybe that was a big part of
it. Did he know about the insurance

718
00:51:07.960 --> 00:51:14.119
policy? I don't know. Good
question. Do you think that thirty years

719
00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:19.639
in prison was sufficient punishment for Andrew? When you mentioned the Illinois youthful Parole

720
00:51:19.719 --> 00:51:23.440
law, I thought that's a great
law. I think that thirty years in

721
00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:30.679
this case probably was enough. I
think so too. I have sympathy for

722
00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:34.440
Andrew. It was horrible what he
did, right he should He definitely knew

723
00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:37.079
right from wrong. He was old
enough to know that that was not the

724
00:51:37.159 --> 00:51:40.840
right way to handle the situation.
But yeah, I agree, like thirty

725
00:51:40.920 --> 00:51:45.800
years seems about right. Well,
this case reminds me a little bit of

726
00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:50.639
the Charlie Tan case, which we
covered a few weeks ago. And again,

727
00:51:50.719 --> 00:51:55.079
he was nineteen and I can't remember
his sentence, but it's really long.

728
00:51:55.360 --> 00:51:59.559
Yeah, and it was similar where
his mom. You know, remember

729
00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:02.280
that his mom was abused by the
dad and then he killed his father,

730
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:08.159
and yeah, your brain is not
fully developed, you should obviously you shouldn't

731
00:52:08.199 --> 00:52:13.400
murder anyone. But yeah, I
think he really believed that his sister was

732
00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:19.000
being abused, and he had a
strong sense of family duty and obligation,

733
00:52:19.079 --> 00:52:22.119
and I think that was just built
into who he was innately. So I

734
00:52:22.119 --> 00:52:25.760
think he felt like he had to
do it. Well, we've talked about

735
00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:29.280
this before, but it's like,
once you turn eighteen, it's not like

736
00:52:29.320 --> 00:52:35.239
your brain magically changes and you're thinking
and you know you're you're still a kid,

737
00:52:35.480 --> 00:52:39.360
You're still not able to make great
decisions. Feel free to disagree with

738
00:52:39.480 --> 00:52:44.760
us. This is just our take
on right on that, and I truly

739
00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:49.880
believe that Andrew is not someone who
is at risk of committing another crime like

740
00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:52.760
that. Again, I really do
believe him when he says he wants to

741
00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:55.679
do good in the world and actually
give back. So yeah, I feel

742
00:52:55.679 --> 00:52:59.320
like it sounds like he did a
lot of great things in prison. Yeah,

743
00:52:59.800 --> 00:53:01.159
we need to. I hope that
we can look at our prisons more.

744
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:07.559
Is a rehabilitative rather than punitive,
for sure, and in a lot

745
00:53:07.639 --> 00:53:12.000
of situations, maybe not every situationally
not the situation. There's a lot of

746
00:53:12.280 --> 00:53:15.039
horrible, horrible people that need to
stay there forever. But I think it

747
00:53:15.079 --> 00:53:17.840
needs to be looked at on a
case by case basis. Ye. My

748
00:53:17.920 --> 00:53:22.960
last question for you is whether you
have any sympathy at all for Catherine given

749
00:53:23.000 --> 00:53:27.320
that her upbringing. You know,
she was definitely abused at the hand of

750
00:53:27.320 --> 00:53:30.079
her father. She had a tough
upbringing as well, But I don't know,

751
00:53:30.119 --> 00:53:34.920
do you do you feel any sympathy
for her? No, because she

752
00:53:35.039 --> 00:53:37.360
evaded the law, she didn't want
to take responsibility for anything. She did.

753
00:53:37.400 --> 00:53:39.960
She was trying to, you know, live the high life, and

754
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:44.039
I don't think I feel any sympathy
for her. Yeah, I think she's

755
00:53:44.079 --> 00:53:47.320
a pretty horrible person. Yeah,
she sounds like she's pretty narcissistic. When

756
00:53:47.360 --> 00:53:51.400
you look at so many of these
cases, you can break it down into

757
00:53:51.480 --> 00:53:54.440
like people's psychological traumas in their pasts, and you know, you can find

758
00:53:54.519 --> 00:54:00.000
reason that they committed these crimes that
they have you know, a person disorders

759
00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:05.880
or psychological deficits or whatever it is. But yeah, at the end of

760
00:54:05.880 --> 00:54:07.400
the day, there's not really an
excuse for what she did. No,

761
00:54:09.000 --> 00:54:14.440
how do you think Catherine is fairing
in prison? Like how her brother did,

762
00:54:14.639 --> 00:54:16.039
you know, so many good things
and he worked in the hospice and

763
00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:21.880
he you know, took college classes
and he helped his inmates. Catherine's just

764
00:54:22.039 --> 00:54:25.480
I think she is just doing her
time and not saying a word to anybody.

765
00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:28.960
She just seems like, Yeah,
she doesn't seem like she has any

766
00:54:29.079 --> 00:54:31.960
feels any obligation to try to help
people or be nice. The fact that

767
00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:37.440
she went to the hearing with Robert's
family and just refused to even look at

768
00:54:37.480 --> 00:54:40.360
them, didn't show any remorse at
all. I think she's probably like in

769
00:54:40.440 --> 00:54:45.239
denial and probably still claims that she
didn't do it when you said she wrapped

770
00:54:45.320 --> 00:54:49.400
up her brother's laughter, Like,
why is she so angry at him?

771
00:54:49.519 --> 00:54:53.960
Yeah, I don't know. It
seems really unfair, but typical narcissistic behavior.

772
00:54:54.000 --> 00:54:58.360
I guess, Yeah, what do
you think that he will do that

773
00:54:58.519 --> 00:55:01.320
Andrew will do? Now that you
know that's a good question. That's actually

774
00:55:01.400 --> 00:55:05.039
why I wanted to talk to him, because I really wanted to find out

775
00:55:05.079 --> 00:55:07.920
what his plans were. I mean, he's talked about that he wants to

776
00:55:07.559 --> 00:55:12.400
help people, but I don't really
know exactly how he intends to help people

777
00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:15.960
or what he's going to do.
And his family's gone, he's on his

778
00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:17.800
own. I hope he has friends, and it sounds like he has a

779
00:55:17.920 --> 00:55:22.440
lot of friends. You know,
the Korean American community I think has been

780
00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:27.039
very supportive in him. I did
read somewhere that he said he wants to

781
00:55:27.039 --> 00:55:30.880
finish college, because you know,
he basically got through a couple or a

782
00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:34.599
year and a half of college and
then that was it. But other than

783
00:55:34.599 --> 00:55:37.320
that, I don't know what his
plans are. Rest in peace, Robert

784
00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:43.800
o'dubain and Elizabeth Saw What was the
name of the documentary where you got the

785
00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:46.400
clips? It was called The House
of Saw. And where did you find

786
00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:50.960
it? That's a good question.
I know you had a hard time finding

787
00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:54.000
it. I was searching everywhere for
it. I couldn't find even there was

788
00:55:54.039 --> 00:55:58.800
a Facebook page for the filmmakers who
made the documentary that looked like it had

789
00:55:58.840 --> 00:56:00.840
been dead. And I even posted
like question on the Facebook page and like,

790
00:56:00.840 --> 00:56:04.800
where can I find this? I
looked on Amazon, Netflix, everywhere,

791
00:56:05.119 --> 00:56:08.239
couldn't find it. I eventually if
I found it on the Internet archive,

792
00:56:08.519 --> 00:56:12.880
which is a great resource. Okay, so it was there. I

793
00:56:12.920 --> 00:56:16.119
thought it was a date a Dateline
episode because it was on MSNBC, but

794
00:56:16.199 --> 00:56:19.920
it turned out it was the documentary, which was actually very good. But

795
00:56:20.559 --> 00:56:23.320
good luck finding I was just going
to say, like, I don't know

796
00:56:23.400 --> 00:56:28.920
how I have a hard time working
that. Yeah, Internet, it's hard.

797
00:56:29.480 --> 00:56:30.599
It is a little bit confusing,
and you have to watch it in

798
00:56:30.679 --> 00:56:35.599
one minute segments, like oh my
god, you have to hit play watch

799
00:56:35.639 --> 00:56:37.760
for one minute, then hit play
on the next one for one minute,

800
00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:43.000
and do that for a whole hour. And if any dateline people are listening,

801
00:56:43.239 --> 00:56:45.880
I'm sure, I'm sure. Keith
is just listening to this. We

802
00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:51.280
would really like to be able to
access all Dateline episodes, and we would

803
00:56:51.320 --> 00:56:54.760
pay for that in a monthly subscription. I think a lot of people would.

804
00:56:54.760 --> 00:56:57.840
I think a lot of people would. I really wish that they would

805
00:56:57.840 --> 00:57:00.480
do that, because you and I
talk about this all the time. We

806
00:57:00.519 --> 00:57:04.400
love Dateline. Yeah, if there's
a Dateline, and especially if I mean

807
00:57:04.400 --> 00:57:06.920
I don't want to play favorites,
but especially if it's a Keith episode and

808
00:57:06.960 --> 00:57:09.079
I can't access it for a case
I'm working on. It just makes me

809
00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:13.199
so sad. And we don't steal
their the way they present the case,

810
00:57:13.559 --> 00:57:16.039
but they have a great information in
it, and it's yeah, it's good

811
00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:19.679
to see the people in the anyway. Anyway, I know no one's from

812
00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:22.320
Dayline is probably listening, but we
wish that that was something that they had

813
00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:25.519
because we would love it totally.
Why, I am off to make you

814
00:57:25.599 --> 00:57:30.760
some cookies. Oh goodie, we're
going to record a Patreon episode tomorrow.

815
00:57:30.800 --> 00:57:35.400
I thought you were going on strike. Oh yeah, see, I know

816
00:57:35.440 --> 00:57:38.719
it's well anyway, every Patreon episode
we make cookies. We make cookies to

817
00:57:38.760 --> 00:57:42.559
go along with the episode, and
so I'm going to make you some special

818
00:57:42.599 --> 00:57:45.559
cookies for tomorrow. I'm looking forward
to that. I say special cookies.

819
00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:49.400
I think it makes it so there's
drugs in the cookies, but it's just

820
00:57:49.800 --> 00:57:52.360
it's just filled with my love.
Okay, I'll look forward to it.

821
00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:55.000
Well, thanks everybody for listening.
We appreciate each and every one of you.

822
00:57:57.119 --> 00:58:00.719
If you haven't already, please rate, review and follow. Means a

823
00:58:00.760 --> 00:58:04.000
lot to us. You can find
us on social media or send us an

824
00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:07.039
email to Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. If you'd like to send us a

825
00:58:07.039 --> 00:58:10.519
snack, you can mail it to
po box one one one Dexter, Michigan

826
00:58:10.920 --> 00:58:15.960
for a one three zero And please
consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash

827
00:58:15.960 --> 00:58:22.760
Lovemrykill five dollars a month one tier
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828
00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:29.119
episode. And thanks for listening.
Cosmo and Clover are little kiddies. Until

829
00:58:29.159 --> 00:59:04.800
next time, don't kill your husband, don't kill your wife. The bank, the