Dolly and Fred Oesterreich

0:00 Hi, I'm Tina and I'm rich. If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage. It's some days you'll feel like killing your. Wife and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to a bonus episode of Love Mary Kill Ki to. Your way friends, your.

0:42 Happy birthday, America, Happy Birthday America. How are you? I'm doing good. How are you happy to have a day off? I am happy to have a three day weekend. Yeah. Yeah, it's gonna be good. I had you play that opening music today, be Kind to your web Footed Friends, which is a parody of Star and Stripes Forever, reminds me of my grandpa. I don't know if I've ever told you this before. My grandpa used to sing that song all the time. Really, it was just always. You know, a tune he was whistling. And my grandpa, my mom's dad, was just really special to me growing up. And he had two of his toes on both feet were webs. Oh wow, Have I ever told you that before? I don't think so. And it's a family trait. Like my sister hers don't go up as far as my grandpa's did. I think mine are completely normal. But it's just kind of a kind of a funny trait that some.

1:32 People have that is interesting. I did not know that. Well, thank you to our listener Monica for recommending this case today. It's a really interesting and even though someone gets murdered, it's kind of a fun case. And I was going to do it for a Patrion episode, but I just couldn't get enough to get to an hour, so I thought, oh, why not just release it as a bonus episode. And I think this episode will be a little bit lighter and maybe appropriate for a family listening while you're on your way home from your Fourth of July festivities. So I hope everyone enjoys this episode. But I love the fourth of Independence Day or the fourth of July. I think it's a great holiday. Why do you love it so much? I just think it's nice that you don't have to buy anyone a gift. You just show up with food and there's fireworks.

2:18 It's pretty chill. Yeah. Yeah, it's just more of a relaxing day. I thought you were going to say you like it so much because of the hot dog eating competition. Well, it's no secret that I love the hot dog eating competition. And I think it's actually going to be going on as we're recording this. Joey Chestnut, who. You know, back. He's back. It's a major deal for. People who don't follow this quite as closely as we do. There was some kind of contractual dispute and. He well, he had an endorsement with. Impossible Food Atised, which is not exactly Nathan's hot Dogs. Said no, we don't like that. So I think that Joey has a lot to prove this year. I think he's going to come back stronger than ever. Joey's only forty one years old. He really he looks a little little older, had.

3:07 A lot of years left in his eating career. So Nathan's famous hot dog competitions started, I believe. The first time was in nineteen seventy two, of course at Coney Island, but a Polish immigrant named Nathan Handworker started the original hot dog stand in Coney Island in nineteen seventeen. Nineteen seventeen, okay, the. First official competition took place on Independence Day, like I said, in nineteen seventy two. Jason Scheckter was the inaugural champion at the time in a mixed gender field. I don't know how many he ate. I wish I knew that. But Joey, his record is seventy.

3:48 Three, and that's in ten minutes, right. In ten minutes. Yes, and you can so insane that you can if you want, you can put condiments on your hot dog. That's not against the rules, but I imagine would want to take the time to do that. That's so weird too. They put like they eat the buns and the hot dogs separately, and they soak the buns in water to make it easier to go. That part of it makes it so gross to me. I wish they could. It's pretty gross. Yeah, the whole thing is really disgusting, but I love it for whatever reason. So what is your guest for today? How many hot dogs do you think? I'm sorry, what did you say? The record was seventy seventy three. I think I think he's going to get a new record. I'm going to say seventy five.

4:29 I'm going to go with eighty one each. I know, seems high. So wow, we'll see who is the winner here. All right, We'll see. I don't know if it's like this everywhere. I'm pretty sure it's not, But in Michigan, fireworks are pretty legal. Like in late May or early June, there's ten surrected everywhere, and you can buy a bunch of fireworks. Yeah, I am pro firework, but I am anti buying fireworks and letting them off yourself. I'm always really not very much fun when I'm like, nope, no one can buy fireworks. I don't want to see them set off. You know, you're a professional. Well, where we live now, it's not quite as bad, but the subdivision we used to live in, like it was like a war zone.

5:12 Yeah, people were pretty bad here too. You're not supposed to, but people still do. People would just like our whole our whole neighborhood was like people just shooting off fireworks. Non. I do think it's super dangerous and I know I'm no fun and just be safe. I mean it is. It's very like a lot of people get hurt with fireworks, so it's definitely important to maintain safety. I did make you a snack, and it's a fourth of July snack. It's kind of a fail. I have a I kind of made it up on my own. We didn't really make it up, but I was like, I'm gonna take a Golden Gram cereal and I'm going to make a small tree. So I used a couple of sticks of butter and a bag of marshmallows, and then I put too much stuff in it, as I tend to do. Can you see, like the I put patriotic eminem's in it, and I put too many m and ms, so they's.

6:00 It's a lot of stuff in it. And then I used those chocolate chunks and they didn't all. I think I needed more marshmallow. Golden Gram cereals used to be when I was growing up. That was one of my favorites. I loved Golden Grams. You know, I don't think I think I've only had it in making recipes like this, but yeah, it's really yummy. So if you want to try it real quick. Yeah, of course. So that was like breakfast because it's made with breakfast cereal. What did you need to do? Like it? It was not a fail in my book. It was really good. I mean I should use the full bag of marshmallows. I didn't look the back like it looked a little bit of a mess, but the taste of it was excellent.

6:41 Well good, I'm glad you liked it. On the night of August twenty second, nineteen twenty two, that's our wedding anniversary, and that's the year that we got married. Right somewhere around there. The wealthy neighborhood of North Andrews Boulevard and Los Angeles was jolted awake by the sound of gunfire three shots just after midnight, coming from the grand home of Fred and Walburga or Dolly Oosterike Walburga. That is quite a name. Yeah, well that's why she went by, Dolly. Police arrived at the mansion to a scene straight out of a Who Done It. Fred Oasterike was found lying dead on the living room floor, splayed across an oriental rug, like a man who'd been trying to protect his home and wife. Upstairs, officers heard frantic banging and cries for help. They followed the noise to find Dolly locked in her bedroom closet, disheveled and distressed. The key to the closet was sitting innocently on a nearby table. Dolly was shaken tearful as she told police the house had been robbed. The thief locked her in the closet before she could get a good look at him. It certainly looked the part some drawers had been rummaged through. Fred's expensive watch was missing, along with some cash. The police bought it a robbery gone wrong. They thought something didn't sit right for starters, who locks the lady of the house in a closet and neatly leaves the key behind? And more importantly, why didn't anything else seem to be missing? Dolly certainly was

8:12 hiding something or someone. While Burga corcial Osterich's early years are surrounded in mystery. We can't say for sure where or when she was born. Dolly Is she preferred to be called, may have been born in the US or Germany, but we do know that she was born in eighteen eighty to German immigrant parents, and that she grew up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, in a neighborhood among other German immigrants. From a young age. People were drawn to charismatic Dolly. She was bright, outgoing and pretty. While researching this case, I tried my best to get it right, but because the story is so old, I read a lot of thank you to newspapers dot com. It's really fun to go back and look at articles from you know, nineteen hundred or whatever. But some of the information conflicted. And I read a novella about the story, and there's just a lot of conflicting information.

9:08 Yeah, that happens a lot with those older cases. Yeah, but I think I have the nuts and bolts right. Dolly's family was struggling to make ends meet, so at the tender age of twelve, Dolly was forced to quit school and get a job. She found work at a textile mill owned by the Oasterich family. Read Oasterike born in Chicago in eighteen seventy seven, was the heir to the family's fortune. He met Dolly at the mill and was instantly intrigued by the precocious young girl. Can you get your Canada control over there? He's really into this story. The Oasterikes, who had also migrated from Germany, owned several businesses. Despite her young age, she and Fred began dating.

9:50 How old were they when they started dating. I'm not exactly sure how old they were when they started dating. She was twelve when she started working at the factory, so in my mind, I'm hoping that they didn't date until she was older. Yeah, when Dolly turned seventeen, she and Fred married. Dolly was happy to leave her troubled family behind for the wealth, stability, and comfort Fred offered her. They were very happy together in the beginning. Dolly and Fred were a good team. She helped him grow the family businesses, often suggesting new business ventures like manufacturing aprons, which became the cornerstone of the business. Dolly was kind and gentle with the workers at the textile mill, contrasting Fred's rude and brusque manner. But with his financial success came more responsibility in longer hours. To cope with the stress of work, Fred turned to alcohol. Dolly grew lonely and often found herself eating dinner by herself at a big table while Fred worked through the night. Dolly became pregnant in the year nineteen hundred at age twenty, and gave birth to a son named Raymond, but he died when he was nine years old, adding to Dolly's misery and loneliness. While Fred died deeper into his work and the bottle That's said Yeah. Craving the attention of love she no longer received from her husband, Dolly began seeing other men and carried out multiple affairs. Fred didn't even seem to notice. And if he did, he didn't care.

11:17 In nineteen thirteen, a seventeen year old orphaned boy named Otto sand Huber caught Dolly's eye one day when she was visiting the textile factory. Otto repaired sewing machines and did other odd jobs for Fred. Dolly called the factory, feigning problems with her own sewing machine, and asked to have Otto sent to her home. Dolly, then thirty three, answered the door wearing only a silk robe, garters and stockings. Otto was overwhelmed with desire for the older woman, and the two began a torrid affair. First they met in hotels, but as time passed without Fred detecting anything, she became more brazen and the affair continued. At the oaster Reich's home.

11:59 Otto was at her call. When the neighbor questioned Dolly who this young man was that she constantly saw at her house. She told the nosy woman that it was her half brother, who was a vagabond and constantly bothered her for food and money. Dolly had underestimated how curious bored housewives could be and decided that she and Otto needed to be more careful. She hatched a plan that she thought was brilliant. Otto could move into the attic of their large home. Fred would never notice, and then she could have her young lover whenever she wanted. By this point, Otto was desperately in love with Dolly and thought it was a fabulous idea, even if it meant that he would have to quit his job and drop out of his life to be stowed away in a dark and dusty attic. He really didn't like working anyway.

12:47 Gives new meaning to the term being a kept man. Yeah, he was. Basically a prisoner. Dolly put a bed and a writing desk in the attic. The attic was sweltering in the summer and freezing in the winter, not an ideal place to live at all, but Otto wanted to be as close to Dolly as possible. Otto had dreams of becoming a pulp fiction writer. He romanticized wiling away the hours in the attic, reading and writing by candlelight, dreaming up plots for short stories and books. In addition to making love to Dolly several times a day while Fred was at work, Otto tidied the house, made the beds, cooked, cleaned, and even brewed bootleg gin. The attic was right above the primary bedroom. There was a panel in the closet with access to the attic, very convenient. Dolly took good care of Otto, bringing him food and little treats. She went to the library each week and selected books for him that he would read by candlelight. As Fred lay below, snoring away, oblivious to what was going on under his.

13:48 Nose, I'm just curious. I'm not asking for any reason, but I know there's access to our attic in the garage. Don't go up there, Okay, was there in our bedroom? Yeah, yeah, that's. Pretty typically right. Yeah, I've never been up there. Maybe I should. I have only poked my head up there. But it's not it's not a very inviting attic. It's not like, yeah, it's not like a place you. Would Dolly's attic was very inviting either. That's kind of wild. It sounds crazy, but this arrangement lasted for over five years. Yeah. Wow. Fred was busy and distracted, but not entirely oblivious. He noticed that the leftover chicken would be gone before he'd had a chance to make a sandwich. His cigars seemed to be disappearing faster than he was smoking.

14:35 Now Otto was smoking Fred's cigars. That's not cool. Dolly vanished into thin air sometimes, and he constantly heard voices and unexplained noises. He started to question his sanity. Dolly suggested he pay a visit to his doctor. Fred. The doctor assessed him and declared him healthy. His wife suggested that he should stop drinking and maybe things would become clearer. After Fred opened a new factory in Los Angeles in nineteen seventeen, he suggested they move there. Fred didn't want to admit it, but their home in Milwaukee was creeping him out. Sure it was. When they went to look for houses in La Dolly was insisted that she wanted a house with an attic, which is rare in California, or was at that time anyway. Fred didn't understand why Dolly needed an attic in her house, but he wasn't one to question her. Eventually, Fred did find a lovely mansion with an attic on Sunset Boulevard. The attic again had access through the primary bedroom's closet. Otto agreed to move across the country with Dolly. He was excited for the opportunity and couldn't stand the thought of being parted from her. The arrangement suited him just fine.

15:47 He set out for la before Dolly and Fred, so he could settle himself into the attic Otto's writing career was actually going well. He'd been paid for several of his stories and was working on a novel. Fred became worried when the odd occurrences and noises followed them to Los Angeles. He really thought he was losing his marbles. He sank deeper into the bottle, depressed that his grasp on reality was so tenuous. His increased drinking further deteriorated his relationship with Dolly, and their fights became louder and more aggressive. Otto overheard the arguments, and he didn't like it one bit. He wanted to protect Dolly, but she reminded him that he needed to stay hidden. She could handle Fred, she insisted. But on August twenty second, nineteen twenty two, after coming home from a party, Fred was in a particularly rancorous mood. The couple started their usual bickering, but as it intensified, Otto could hear the fighting from his perch grow increasingly angrier. He was afraid that Fred would harm his beloved. He crawled through the hole in the closet and then ran down the stairs to the living room to confront his rival. You can imagine Fred's surprise when he saw the strange man coming down the stairs with two small guns aimed at him. The guns were twenty five caliber. And I know neither of us are really good with guns, but do you know what a twenty five caliber is?

17:13 Hey, don, I've never heard of that. I've heard of twenty two calibers, So assume it's a little bit bigger. They're really tiny, Like it's like the size of your palm, Like you can fit in your hand. Gotcha. It was then that Fred recognized Otto as a young man who had worked for him years earlier. It all suddenly became clear to him. Otto had been the cause of the noises and not occurrences that had been plaguing him for the past ten years. I can't even imagine that moment of clarity in Fred's mind, where it just all all the pieces came together. It was like, oh my god, I was not going crazy all these years. Yeah, well, to see you think it's just you and your wife and your house at all, sid this man comes down the stairs, not through the front door. Yeah, it must have been a huge shock. Fred began swinging furiously at Otto, shocked at his work's betrayal. But these would be Fred's final thoughts. Shots rang out and echoed through the air. Otto fired three bullets, two into Fred's chest and one into the back of his head, killing him immediately.

18:15 Dolly and Otto knew they needed to act fast before the neighbors called the police. They decided their best course of action would be to stage a burglary. They left Fred on the living room floor. Otto took the guns, cash, some of Dolly's jewelry, and Fred's diamond watch up to the attic, and then locked Dolly in the closet. When the police arrived, they were flummixed. The house was full of valuables, but the thief had only taken Fred's watch and some cash. Why would the thief kill Fred over so little? They let Dolly out of the closet. Suspicion quickly fell on her. But how had she locked herself in the closet. The police felt that she wasn't telling the whole truth.

18:55 How had Otto locked her into the closet and then gone back up to the attic. There must have been another way up into the attic. Two, maybe into one. The entrance to the attic was through the closet. Yeah, yeah, there must have been another entrance to the attic. A yeah, that would make sense. Dolly was taken to the jail to be questioned and she was arrested, but later the charges were dropped against her because of the weak evidence. One fingerprint was found on the doorknob of the closet. It wasn't Dolly's or Fred's, but it was lost later by law enforcement. It was later learned that the DA ordered Dolly's fingerprints be destroyed in nineteen twenty three. Reportedly, officials led Dolly dry for eight years under the threat of arrest and incarceration.

19:39 Dolly has a lot of money at this point, and I think that she had to pay a lot of people off to keep out of jail. Okay, we'll be back after a break. Fred's will was allegedly destroyed in the attic. Inherited Fred's vast fortune at the time valued at seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars, which is fourteen million dollars today. So I read varying accounts of how much money Dolly was worth and some accounts said millions, and I don't know if that meant adjusted for inflation or you know, Fred had seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars and he willed it to her, but the value of his businesses was millions of dollars. But regardless, she was pretty much she was very well off.

20:28 Now that Fred was out of the picture, Dolly and Otto didn't have to hide anymore. Dolly purchased a new home that also happened to have an attic, so used to their arrangement, Otto chose to once again reside in the attic and continue writing pulp fiction, but now because he didn't have to worry about Fred finding out about him, he bought a typewriter and was able to clack the night away. Dolly supported his writing, helping him develop his plots and even edited his work. Just really funny to me that Otto chose to go back into to the attic. Yeah, you really must have liked it up there, I guess, so. Yeah, and he has access to I'm sure Dolly, you know, she could have given him anything at this point, because I think she really did love him, But he's just like, no, just I'll just take a typewriter.

21:14 And it sounds like in all these years he probably didn't go out much either, right, because he couldn't be seen by neighbors, so he really like didn't he lived in this little attic all the time. Dolly took on a new lover, her lawyer, Herman Shapiro. Boy, poor Otto. I can't believe she did. Otto like that Herman had been indispensable and getting the murder charges dropped against her. Dolly was so enamored with her new bo that she gave him a valuable diamond watch. Even though she had great wealth, it seemed silly to purchase a new diamond watch when she still had Fred's stowed away up in the attic. Herman was a sharp fellow, however, and was instantly aware that the gifted watch was the one that had allegedly been stolen by the thieves who killed Fred.

21:59 When he confronted her about this, she explained that she had been wrong about the watch being stolen. It had simply been misplaced. Do you think Otto was like, Dolly, where's my diamond watch? Probably a critical mistake, It would turn out. Hermann loved Dolly, but he was a busy man. Dolly needed constant attention, so she added another man to her lineup. I think Dolly had a lot, like we're going to talk about a few, but she had a lot of men. In her life, did she. Roy Clumb was her new paramore. He was a businessman and aspiring actor. Dolly had three men completely wrapped around her fingers. Roy especially was ary, smitten and a little naive.

22:43 When Dolly asked him to do a favor for her, he was more than willing. She told her she had a gun she needed him to get rid of for her, not the one that had been used to kill Fred, but it happened to be the exact same make and model as a so called burglar's weapon. With the police sniffing around, she figured it probably wasn't the best idea to have this gun lying around the house. That doesn't sound very likely to me, you don't think. So Roy threw the gun into the Librea tarpits. Soon after, Dolly grew tired of him and broke things off. There was a second gun that she asked a neighbor to bury in his yard, and he agreed. He buried it under a rose bush. I know it sounds ridiculous, but she did approach these two different men and asked them to get rid of the guns for her.

23:31 Yeah, I believe it. I don't know why she didn't ask Roy to just get rid of both of them, or. Why she didn't just do it herself. Do you give these things to other people and it's going to end up coming out one way or another. Very good point. Soon someone noticed how similar herman's watch was to Fred's watch. They tipped the police off, and once again they began to watch Dolly. Roy, angry about Dolly breaking off their relationship, went to the police and told them about the gun he the tarpits. When Dolly's Neighborhod buried the gun in his rose garden saw the news on the front page of the newspaper, he dug up the pistol he'd buried for Dolly and brought it to the police station. Police were also able to locate the gun in the tarpit. The problem was that both of the guns were in rough shape, rusted, and impossible to tell if they were the actual murder weapon. Still, authorities believed they had enough evidence to arrest Dolly. Otto remained hidden in the attic, still unknown to the police.

24:32 When herman went to visit her in jail. Dolly pleaded with him to go to her house. She explained that her stepbrother was in her attic and asked him to go check on him and bring him some food. She said, quote, go and take some food to my house, leave it on the floor in my bedroom, and scratch on the wall near the dresser. Tell no one. Herman did as he was told. He was shocked when Otto emerged from the closet. He was thin, pale, as if he hadn't seen the sun in years. Herman had interrupted Otto as he was writing a story about Fred's murder and the attic, portraying himself as the hero. According to the affidavit, the two men became fast friends. Otto revealed the truth to herman.

25:18 He wasn't Dolly's stepbrother, but her lover of many years, and he had been the gunman who killed Fred Osterich. Herman didn't turn him in, but Otto was horrified that Dolly was in jail for a crime he committed. He went to the police station and turned himself in immediately so she could be free again. Because he was used in never seeing the sun and living in a small space, how much worse. Could prison be a very good point? I'm just kidding. Otto was terrified at the thought of going to jail. He packed his typewriter and his few belongings and went to Canada, where he changed his name to Walter Klein and later married a woman. I don't know if Otto continued to live in attics.

25:59 I bet he. Do you think so? DOLLI frequently sent Otto money in Canada until he later reappeared in Los Angeles and told her that he couldn't live without her as Luck would have. But the charges weren't strong enough, and Dolly was released from jail. Herman moved in with her until nineteen thirty when they had an ugly breakup. He went to the police and told them everything he knew, including Otto living in Dolly's attic for a decade, which resulted in her being arrested again for conspiracy. Police tracked Auto down in Canada. The newspapers really loved the wild story and coined Otto the ghost in the Garrett and Batman. Batman first appeared in comics in nineteen thirty nine. So I'm wondering if Otto.

26:49 Might have been the inspiration forman Do you think so? Maybe? Herman alleged that Dalli and Otto had burned Fred's original will. He claimed that Dolly was will a third of the estate, with another third going to the Christian Science Church and another third going to the manager of the textile factory. I don't believe there's any proof that a will was actually burned. Otto was arrested. He took the police to the very attic where he had lived for so many years. He told them that Dolly had kept him there as a sex slave for over ten years, although he really had loved her deeply. He explained that he had killed Fred, but it was in self defense. Quote. I thought from Missus oster Rich's screams that her husband was killing her.

27:36 I grabbed my gun in a rage, and, after climbing out of my secret room, ran downstairs. I pulled the trigger and he fell on the floor bleeding. Then I ran upstairs, badly, frightened by what I had done, and hid myself in this secret little room. Newspaper descriptions from that time really make me laugh because they're very specificous. They described Otto as quote and under sized man with a thin face and furtive eyes. When Otto went to trial, the jury found him guilty not of murder but manslaughter. Because the statute of limitations had run out on manslaughter, Otto forty was freed. Dolly fifty six went to trial in nineteen thirty six. She still had heaps of money and hired high powered attorneys to represent her. She claimed she had only lied to protect Otto, she had nothing to do with Fred's murder and had not planned it.

28:32 Dolly's jury was hung. The state of California realized that their case was too weak to move forward and drop the charges against Dolly. A year later, Dolly met a man named ray Bert Hedrick. He was her companion for nearly thirty years. They remained together until Dolly's death in nineteen sixty one. They married five days before her death. She was eighty one. So they were together for thirty years and never married and then they got married five days. Yes, strange, Well maybe she maybe there was all like a legal reason, like she wanted him to inherit her wealth or something. And wouldn't she just leave it? Will know? I don't know, I don't speculating. Dolly's story inspired two films, The Bliss of Missus Blossom and a made for TV movie starring a very young Neil Patrick Harris, the man in the attic in the movie Dolly and Otto are Christa and Edward and we have a clip. Edward.

29:33 Please just stay with Edward if someone sees us. Please please. You don't know how much I've missed you. I don't know, Krista being without you. You're all I can think of, and when I do, I can't breathe, I panic, and I can't see. That's exactly how I feel. You've shown me what's possible in life. I can't go back to the way it was, Krista. I have no job, no no place to stay. Once this once runs, Listen, I know a place with free room and board where Joe will never find you and we can be together as much as we want. There is no such place, Yes there is, there is. So what do you think We could clean it up and put a mattress here for you and I'd live here in the attic only when Joe is home. The rest of the time the house is ours. You'll find out.

30:39 How could he? I let Mary go. You and I can do the work that needs to be done. The neighbors they never come round. Of course, you couldn't be seen coming or going? Where would I want to go? My life is with you. The house would be our sanctuary. I watched that clip because you send it to me to care and I had no idea that was Neil Patrick. Now that you said it, Oh yeah, of course that was. I mean he's a baby. Yeah, it seems like it's right after Dogie his doogie howser years. I had to watch a fair bit of to get a good clip. It's just lovely, beautiful acting there nice and that's how we'll spend the rest of our Independence day in the attic.

31:22 No watching that great move. Okay, it's on YouTube and we will post a link. Oh boy again. There were varying accounts of how many homes that Otto moved with dollly Tube. I think there was as many as seven times they moved, and Otto each time went to the attic. So wild and how many like how many years all together? Like ten years or more? He was sort of living in the attic. Wow. Why do you think Otto liked the attic so much? Well, I think he wanted to be close to the love of his life. But he probably also liked if you're a writer, like you want peace and quiet and somewhere you can you know, be doing your work, and he probably he probably enjoyed having that little space. You know.

32:04 It just sounds like it would be really hot in the summer and really cold in the winter. I don't know, yeah for sure, but you know, back then people didn't have air conditioning anyway, so you were kind of more used to being like hot and cold. So maybe it just wasn't that big of a deal. It's probably true, so Fred was shot in self defense. Why did they just tell the police that? Yeah? I mean I think the whole thing with her lover living in the attic for ten years would have been a pretty weird story to have to tell the police. So maybe they just didn't want to get into. That whole or do you think it could have been plotted? I mean maybe, but it seems like they had a kind of a good thing going. So why would they you know, why would they do that? Really? I don't It doesn't seem like there was any reason for it.

32:48 He had lived there for ten years and no end in sight, so why not just keep doing it? A lot of interesting psychological ramifications in this In this case, right, Dolly had lost her son and you know, was Otto kind of a replacement. Yeah, he was like seventeen when they met. She was in her thirties, right, Yeah, and I think he was just a few years older than what her son would have been at the time. Yeah, and Otto was orphaned, So maybe he was looking for a maternal figure in Dolly and that's why she was so important to him. Yeah, he might be onto something there. I have one more important question for you. Is Batman a superhero?

33:30 Yeah? Obviously, I really adamantly disagree. A superhero is someone who has a superpower, like a super strength, like Superman is really strong, spider Man has his web capabilities of backup Man. I don't know what he swim, he swims. Really fast, says well, I mean Batman didn't have superpowers, but he was a superhero. Those those are two different things. You can use your superpowers to be a superhero or I. Mean he did good things. He was definitely a hero, and I think he's a hero. But he's superhero. So in my opinion, he's just like a wealthy guy who bought a bunch of stuff.

34:11 He was brilliant, he had well he was we had a super brain that allowed him to invent really cool gadgets and things. So under that definition, then you're a superhero because you're a smart guy. Yeah, but I don't really use my powers for good. So I think Batman, I think being a superhero is independent of having a superpower. Well, Chad, Shept agreed with you because I asked him and said, Batman is considered a superhero. But he's a bit of a he's a bit of a unique case. He has genius level intellect, peak physical conditioning, mastery of martial arts and detective work, advanced technology and gadgets, and unshakable moral code.

34:57 So you are very much I have hardly any of those things. It's actually not true. You don't. Well, I mean, if you're a genius or not, that's devatable, but you don't have martial arts. He has Marshall Arts training. I don't remember that part. He was very good at fighting, so I guess he must have had some sort of training, but I don't know exactly what the discipline was. We should maybe build a cave under our house. We should when we're building the swimming pool, we can, you know, just keep going kill. Yesterday I was out running errands, and this always just baffles me. I was in a bathroom in a public restroom, and the amount of people that I hear talking on their cell phone when they're in a bathroom stall is shocking to me. I'm not kidding. Like, almost every time I'm in a public restroom, I hear someone on their phone, Like in the stall.

35:54 I hear it all the time. Yeah, do you ever talk to anyone? Ever ever done that? I will text. I'm just gonna call you out in that because last week I was walking down the stairs and I had just received a text from you. I sent you something funny. I found her something you was But it. Was just so funny because I was just like, you just texted me on the toilet. You like, yeah, yes, But I would never talk on the phone. I wouldn't either were. In the bathroom. I just think that's too weird. But I see it all the time too, when I'm in public restrooms. It's very common. Okay, this is kind of gross. But a couple of weeks ago, I was in a restroom. There's these two ladies and they were like, you know, side by side on the stalls, and it was like the one lady was like, hell, and what are you doing in there allan you were a cross.

36:38 They were talking to each other. Yeah, no one was. You know, she had some gas or something. It's like a scene out of Harold and Kumar. I'm not sure I get that reference in. The first Harold and Kumar movie, which has Neil Patrick Harrison. It kind of made me think. Of that he makes Connects movies and. A really gross scene where there's two two girls or two women, young women in toilet stalls next to each other. I'm not going to go in any more detail because it's pretty gross scene. But that's just about white Castle. Just say, Harold and who are like I need? White Castle was a good movie. The first one was really good. I think did they get increasingly where I think? Yeah, I think the first one felt really unique. Yeah, well that was really we.

37:23 Just I don't know how we went there, but yeah, yeah, but. We only have White Castle probably every five years, so it might be the day. All well, I hope everyone has a happy and save Fourth of July. Leave the fireworks to an expert or. Such a curmudgeon. The guy who's drink drink I just want I don't want anyone. Yeah, we don't want anyone. Just be careful. If you're going to use fire just be careful. Don't get really drunk like dynamite, and you know the things that you put into their they're unstable. That the whole definition of a fire is like it's an unstable stable you know.

38:04 I think you can be safe using fireworks, just a lot of people are very careless, and a lot of people drink a lot, and that just leads to bad things. So yeah, use your fireworks, but just be careful. That's all I would that's my advice. Well, our local weather man, Dave Rex, Yeah, I just feel really bad for him. Yeah. Well, thank you again Monica for recommending this case. It was definitely one that I enjoyed. It was an interesting one. Yeah, until next time, don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband. To us midnight on the ocean on the day I married him. He didn't know his name was spread That's why I called him Jim. We settled down in London, France, beside the Pyramids and raised a little family of crazy, mixed up kids.

39:00 Oh, be kind to your web for the friends or a duck may be somebody's mother. Be kind to the denizen of the swamp. He's a delayed true and food. You may think that this is the end, where it is