Dr. Autumn Klein and Robert Ferrante

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage. It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife. And some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina. How are you. I'm doing good? How are you? I'm great. It's a beautiful sunny day here in Michigan. It is beautiful time change tonight. Uh, how you lose an hour? I don't like to lose an hour. I like to gain an hour. Yeah, it is much more pleasant. So you're pretty perky considering your international travels this week.

0:45 It was a whirlwind week. But I'm back from Berlin and feeling back to normal already. I don't know how you do that, because you got there and you pretty much didn't sleep for how many hours. Probably like twenty four hours. I didn't sleep because I flew like a red eye flight, and I can't sleep on airplanes. I just can't do it. So I was, Yeah, I was. Up for a little ambient and you still couldn't sleep. I took an ambient I still couldn't sleep. I was in the I must have been I suspended yes, Yeah, I was in a fog because I watched an hour of a movie Long Legs. I downloaded it before I got on the flight. I watched an hour of it after I took the ambient I couldn't get to sleep and I don't remember a thing from it. So, yeah, I was in a fog.

1:26 And then you get off of the airplane in a foreign country. Are you still in a fog? Yes, still in a fog. I don't like that for you really, you know, used to it. But you got there safely. I did, and I got back safely. That's great. Yeah. Well I did bring you a snack. I'm glad to hear that. Apologize to the people of Pennsylvania and the people especially of Pittsburgh because the snack has nothing to do with them. Oh okay, but it's one of my favorites. I made them recently for a Patreon episode. Yeah, so I was just craving them. So I made you some maple cookies. I made you maple brown sugar cookies. I love those cookies with some pecans in them. Awesome. You want to try it? I sure do, all right, So what did you think of the cookie?

2:13 I loved them. I mean, they're so good. I love brown sugar cookies. I love maple flavoring. I think it's an underrated flavor. The only thing I don't love is the pecans. Really, they're not bad, but I just to me, I would I like. Something to sink my teeth into, So I really like it, not in a cookie. And one of these days I'm going to make chocolate chip cookies. I'm gonna put walnuts in them, and you all are just gonna have to do them because I never ever do that. Okay, I give them nine and a half out of ten. And a half. I just added a half. Oh, all right, whatever. Before we get started, I want to thank our friend Debbie from True Crime University for recommending this case to us. Debbie's the best. If you haven't listened to True Crime University, please do. She's great.

2:56 The true crime community is so generous. Debbie did this case too, but she reached out to me and said, hey, this would be a great fit for you guys. So that's just how great everyone is in the true crime community. So thank you, Debbie. We love you. Yeah, thanks Debbie. Today I'm going to tell you the story of doctor Autumn Klein. And Robert Frante. On April seventeenth, twenty thirteen, doctor Autumn Klein, forty one, worked an exceptionally long fifteen hour day at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center Presbyterian. Autumn was a highly sought after neurologist who specialized in women's care. At the apex of her career, her husband, Robert Frante, sixty four, was a well respected researcher in neuro degenerative diseases. Autumn and her husband lived in a beautiful home just minutes from the hospital. Her day began at eight twenty seven am and did an end until eleven eighteen pm. She texted her husband of ten years, Bob, and told him that she was about to leave the hospital to begin the eighteen minute walk home to their cozy one hundred year bungalow that they shared with their six year old daughter, Sianna. Be careful, Bob texted back, as automn walked through the door. Or Bob handed her a drink he'd made for her. Seconds later, she collapsed on the floor and began to moan and breathe erratically.

4:07 Her eyes were open but not focusing. At eleven fifty two. Bob frantically called nine to one one, coming out one with. Please please, I'm in two nineteen litten having you. I think my wife is having a sup. What city, ts fro Bro, what city are you in? I'm in Pittsburgh. Okay, please please. Okay, just hang out a light, Bob, They're coming. She has this sort of like apetoid hand. It's all sick. He's not breathing normally now, okay, I mean, interests are not breeding normally.

4:48 I mean her chest is rising and falling. Correct, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, big huge breath. She she kind of difficulty breathing. She's having so much sure now she's like having a seizure like sheeheart in church. She felt so frank that she almost just that it was about almost two months ago. And then she said two of these other issues, was she like objections or all kinds of drugs? Yes, all kinds of drugs. We had to piece together that nine one one call, and then nine one one call was several minutes long.

5:32 What did you think of that? I don't even know what to think about that. I mean, I don't I'd love to hear a recording of him talking when he wasn't on the nine one one call because I don't know how much of that was just him being completely frantic versus how much of that is just the way he talks to people. But it was very it was very strange. I think that that was unusual for her. I think he was a calm, professional man. Yeah. It was also really disturbing to hear Augumn breathing in the background to that one part. We will talk about that a little bit more later. This didn't make the call, but at one point Bob recommended that Autumn be brought to UPMC Shady Side instead of the UPMC Presbyterian where she worked, which was a Level one trauma center. UPMC's Shady Side was not. Bob said that it would be more convenient for her folks, but they were in Baltimore.

6:23 Hmm, okay, that doesn't make much sense. When paramedics arrived twelve minutes later, which is kind of a long time considering that they're in downtown Pittsburgh. Yeah, you would think Autumn was lying on her back, eyes open, but unconscious. Her vital signs were rapidly deteriorating. The first responders noticed a gallon sized bag labeled creatine on the counter with a small vial next to it. I don't believe that the first responders took those with them. Kay Autumn's usual pale complexion was cherry Rudd. The ambulance rushed her back to the hospital she had left just sixty three minutes earlier. When she arrived at the er, Autumn remained unresponsive and her vital signs continued to crash. Her heart rate what in the low forties. Her blood pressure was forty eight over thirty six. Her pupils were no longer reactive to light. Doctors and nurses worked quickly together to insert a breathing tube, start an IV, and draw Autumn's blood. It was especially challenging because Autumn was five feet seven inches tall and weighed only one hundred seven pounds.

7:23 They moved to her femoral artery to get more blood and failed again. They decided to put a center line into her jugular vein for easier blood draws and medication dosing. When nurses were finally able to collect a blood sample as it flowed into the tube, they noted unusually bright red blood blood coming from a vein is less oxygenated than arterial blood. The bright red venous blood indicated that oxygen was not being delivered to Autumn's cells. They were suffocating. When Bob Farante arrived moments later, he told the doctors that Autumn had been suffering from severe headaches in recent weeks while undergoing fertility treatments. The doctor's feared a hemorrhagic stroke and rushed her to get a CT scan and an EKG. Neither test revealed any issues. Autumn appeared to be a healthy, forty one year old woman. The doctors were confused about what was causing her sudden deterioration. She wasn't suffering from a heart attack, stroke, or a brain aneurysm.

8:18 Why was Autumn crashing? Concerned doctors from all over the hospital crowded into Autumn's room to assist in her care. When the initial lab results came in, her condition was even more perplexing. Her blood counts appeared within normal range, although her oxygen level and pH were both off. Epinephrine was being administered every few minutes to keep her breathing as the hospital's staff worked feverishly. Her husband offered quote, she really enjoyed what she was doing. She loved her job. And she would never want to survive if she couldn't be herself and continue her work. That's a weird thing to say. Yeah. At two seventeen a m Autumn went into cardiac arrest. The doctors took turns straddling her on the girl aggressively delivering chest compressions, breaking the frail woman's ribs in the process.

9:05 Just as they were about to call a time of death, a thready pulse was felt in Autumn's carotid artery. A defibrillator shocked her heart back into a regular rhythm, but her pulse was still weak. Doctors decided to use extra corporeal membrane oxygenation, or EKMO, to deliver more oxygen to Autumn's blood, but she began to crash again. ECHMO pumps blood from the body into a heart lung machine. Carbon dioxide is removed, and oxygen rich blood is warmth and then delivered back into the body. It's often used as a short term solution when the patient is struggling to get enough oxygen, but the procedure put Autumn's limbs at risk of amputation because of reduced blood flow, but it was the only solution her doctors had at the time.

9:47 She was also placed in a hypothermic state, which sometimes has favorable outcomes after cardiac arrest. By putting less strain on the heart and brain, Autumn's heart rate returned to normal and she was stable through the night. In the morning, she was removed from echo and taken to the emergency department to the cardiac floor of the hospital for blood pressure was still low when she remained non reactive to light, had no gag reflex, and did not react to pain stimuli. Autumn's EEG or electro encephalogram, which measures brain waves, was flat, usually indicating an irreversible coma. One doctor called her profoundly comatose and put her chances of a full recovery at less than four percent, but because she'd been kept in the hypothermic state, they hoped once her body was at a normal temperature for seventy two hours, she'd have a more favorable prognosis. Doctor Clifton Callaway, an emergency physician, when asked to consult on doctor Autumnklein's case, suggested she be tested for cyanide toxicity. Her blood was drawn and sent to a lab in Virginia for analysis. It was a long shot, but worth a try. It would take a few days for the result.

10:54 Cyanide at toxic levels can render a person unconscious in a minute and kill them in as little as five. A lethal dose is two hundred and fifty milligrams about one hundredth of an ounce. Cyanide Poisoning causes convulsions, coughing, and something called the cyanide scream. Do you remember during the nine one one call when Autumn was moaning? I do. I think that might have been the cyanide screen. That's interesting, I've never heard of that before. Cyanide comes from algae, fungi, and bacteria. It also occurs naturally in fruit seeds or stones, such as apples and peaches, and also in cassava roots and Madagascar bamboo. The golden bamboo lemur who grazes on the bamboo has developed a high tolerance to it. It's also a component of cigarette smoke.

11:37 Cyanide starves the cells of oxygen, eventually shutting down the brain and the heart. It's rarely used in homicides, likely because it's hard to obtain. Although uncommon, it is sometimes used in suicide. A ten year study in New York City showed that of sixty five hundred suicide deaths, only seventeen used cyanide as a means. Telltale signs of cyanide poisoning are cherry redskin and the smell of almonds. Or burnt almonds. I think remember Autumn had cherry red skin when Bob called it. Right In New Jersey in two thousand and three, a teenager purchased cyanide online under the guise of plating metal, but used it to poison and kill a young man who was pursuing his girlfriend. So it's interesting plating metal, is that, like the use for cyanide?

12:24 One of the valid uses? Are there? Other like, are there a lot of valid uses for cyanide? There are some valid uses. It's used in the tanning process, it's used in the preservation of wood, and I mean there's just some medical uses for it too, and we're going to talk about those in a little bit. Interesting, Okay. Autumn Marie Klein was born in Baltimore, Maryland, on November thirtieth, nineteen seventy one. Hey, that's your birthday. It is. To her strict but adoring parents, Lois and Bill, Autumn was their only child born to them. Later in life, Lois worked for the irs and Bill was an electrician. Although she was an only child, Autumn was lucky enough to grow up with her four who lived next door on the other side of a row house. Sharon, seventeen months older, was Autumn's lifelong best friend. They even developed a private language that only they understood. Sharon had a bed in Autumn's bedroom. She spent every weekend with the clients and has fond memories of pancake breakfasts on Saturday mornings and dancing in the kitchen to fifties music. Autumn knew from a young age that she wanted to be a doctor. She and Sharon played hospital with their stuffed animals.

13:26 Autumn attended Saint Paul's School for Girls, where she excelled academically. In middle school, she fell in love with science. In high school, she began performing in plays. A nately shy, Autumn blossomed on stage. After graduation, she decided to attend Amherst College, a small, highly selective liberal arts college in central Massachusetts where Robert Frost once taught. Lois kept a tight rein on Autumn and had a hard time letting her go away. She told Autumn she couldn't go, but she went anyway. Autumn in part chose Amherst because the boy she was dating went there, but they soon broke up. She was the first in her family to attend college. It was a big deal. Enjoying her newfound freedom, she returned home as little as possible. Autumn majored in neuroscience and women's Studies. She participated in the work study program by helping out in the dining hall a few days a week. She made friends quickly, many of them became lifelong friends. Autumn became concerningly thin. Her friends suspected she might be suffering from an eating disorder. She barely ate and had an exercise bike in her room that she seemed to always be riding. When her friends contacted Lois Audum's mother, she told her if she didn't knock it off, she was going to make her come home. It seemed to work. Autumn loved college life and her freedom. During her second year at Amherst, Autumn became an ra and continued to work in the cafeteria while focusing on her pre med classes. She graduated magna cum laudie in nineteen ninety three and went on to Boston University's rigorous seven year dual MD PhD program. She was a dedicated student,

15:00 Laser focused on becoming a doctor, but Autumn still found time for her friends, dating, completed a marathon in three hours and forty eight minutes, which is really good, and spent a semester in Paris during her radiology rotation. So people like Autumn, I don't understand how they do that. I'm always amazed by people like that, Like I could. Barely go to college and keep up with my classes, let alone do all those others. And I trained to run a marathon. Very very ambitious woman. After an internship at Brown University, she entered residency in the Harvard Neurology Residency Program at Brigham and Women's Hospital and Massachusetts General Hospital, and ultimately served as chief Resident. In nineteen ninety five, she worked at the Bedford Veterans Administration Medical Center Lab under a professor of neurology and pathology, doctor Neil Cohal, and a renowned researcher named Robert Ferranti.

15:52 Autumn was passionate about helping women through neurological pregnancy issues, particularly epilepsy. Migraine headaches, as well as the effects of oral contraceptives and hormones on headaches. She founded Brigham's Women's Neurology program in two thousand and three in Boston. After years being in ultra competitive Boston. In twenty eleven, she moved to the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center and founded a women's neurology program, where she worked until the time of her death. Autumn was a researcher, author of books and scholarly journals, a practitioner, lecturer, wife, and mother. She thrived in all of these roles. She was called a rising star and a pioneer in her field. Nationally recognized as a leader in women's neurology, she knew the importance of studying women's health as its own distinct field and was proud to offer a different perspective than her male colleagues.

16:42 In a tribute to Autumn in the February twenty fourteen issue of Continuum, her colleagues wrote she had a passion for her clinical mission to bring expertise to the care of women with neurological problems and to help them achieve both their family and medical goals. She understood that patient education was a essential for excellent care, and she dedicated herself to the role of an available and supportive physician. She gave patients time and she listened as she sought to help them understand their illnesses so they might become their own advocates. Autumn was brilliant, capable, compassionate, and talented at work, but her favorite role was mom. So I hope I painted a picture of Autumn being just this amazing physician and an amazing woman.

17:25 Yeah, she had so much going for her, like very ambitious and really super impressive. Robert Frante was born on October twenty first, nineteen forty eight, to Jessica and James Ferrante. He grew up in Quincy, Massachusetts, with two older siblings, Diane and James. James was a pastry chef and Jessica work part time as a seamstress. Music and education were cornerstones of the Ferrante household. Bob graduated from the private boys high school, Chauncey Hall School in nineteen sixty six. In nineteen seventy, he graduated with a bachelor's degree from the University of Bridgeport and Kinne Etiquette and a year later a master's degree in neuroscience, just as the field was burgeoning. In August nineteen seventy one, he married his first wife, Diane McLaughlin, an elementary school teacher, which was the same year that Autumn Klein was born.

18:16 Bob began his career as a neurology research assistant and later as a research supervisor. He worked for years at the Eunice Kennedy Shreiver Center before he moved on to Massachusetts General Hospital, where he focused his attention on Huntington's disease. Huntington's disease is a rare genetic condition that causes the deterioration of brain cells, impacting thought, mental health, and movement. The fronts first child, Kim, was born in nineteen eighty and their son Michael, in nineteen eighty three. They were a happy family who enjoyed sports and nature together. Bob had always planned on going to medical school and began applying to programs sometime in the late nineteen eighties, but then life took an unexpected turn when Diane began exhibiting signs of BiPOL disorder. This made marriage and parenting difficult.

19:03 In August nineteen eighty eight, they filed for divorce after seventeen years of marriage. While Bob cited Diane's mental health as the problem in their marriage, she later said quote he wanted me barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen. Diane wanted the world to know that Bob was controlling and had a temper. Their divorce to create was very detailed. When Diane moved out of their marital home, she was allowed to take one hundred and thirty two items with her. So it was really funny. It's like super super detailed. I'll post a picture of it. So she was allowed to take their china service for twelve two Christmas cacti, four tissue box holders, and six green place mats, among among other things.

19:45 Really strange. They were too split custody of the children, but soon after the divorce Diane dropped out of their lives. Bob's father, John moved in to help raise the children. Bob, by all accounts, was an ideal father. He coached sports team and was at all the important school events. The headmaster of Michael's school said that Bob was quote the most exemplary father any boy ever had. Though he was busy as a researcher. He never missed a game. He was always there for every event. People loved him, but not everyone. In nineteen ninety three, encouraged by his boss, Bob made time to get his PhD in behavioral neuroscience. He completed his dissertation, Mitochondrial energy impairment as a model for Huntington's disease.

20:30 It was a good one. In nineteen ninety six, upon receiving his PhD, he said, quote, I am forever indebted to my family, especially my father, James Vincent Ferrante, for their unflagging support, encouragement, and assistance during these past years. Their pride is a source of great satisfaction to me. The PhD earned Bob the validation and respect he'd been seeking from his colleagues. He became a frequent guest, lecturer, and speaker. He earned countless grants and accolades for his work on Huntington's disease, als, Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer's, and other neurodegenerative diseases. He was the lead researcher on a study using creatine therapy for Huntington's disease.

21:11 So he was also very accomplished and impressive. He really was. He was doing very important research. He did strike me as kind of an odd guy. A lot of the people that worked in the lab with him kind of implied that he was difficult to work with. We'll be back after a break. When Autumn Klein first walked into Bob Ferrante's lab in the fall of nineteen ninety five, she was sporting a rebellious pink streak in her blonde hair and wore ripped jeans. Bob was dubious that she had what it took to be the reliable and discriminating lab assistant he saw. Bob was a difficult and demanding boss who liked things done his way. A former employee called Bob unpleasant and said he had frequent personality conflicts with people in the lab. Quickly won him over with her wit, intelligence, and diligence. Despite the twenty three year age difference, they became close friends. Bob, divorced at the time, with two teenagers at home, didn't have time to date. In nineteen ninety eight, Autumn finished her dissertation.

22:15 This is another one that you've probably read. Of course, beta amyloid injections caused cortical injury and oxidative damage in the mouse cerebral cortex. Wow, what a coincidence, right? Yes, She and Bob didn't become romantically involved until she was almost done with her dissertation. Autumn was mature for her age and Bob was young for his age, so it worked for them. They were active together, biking, hiking, and traveling together to France. Bob was a gourmet chef and loved crafting complicated meals for them. After they got engaged in the year two thousand, Autumn moved in with Bob, his father and children, but she had her own bedroom. Lois Client said, quote, who am I to tell her who to love? I accept people for what they present to me, and he presented to me. Okay. They were marriedrried in an intimate candle at ceremony on May eighteenth, two thousand and one, at the Old North Church in Boston among fifty friends and family. Audam's cousin Sharon was made of honor and Bob's son Michael was the best man.

23:12 They had a quick honeymoon in Kenny Bunkport, Maine, before returning to Boston for Audum's graduation from her mdphd program. The next few years wore a whirlwind, with Autumn's internship at Brown University, then a neurology residency at Harvard Medical School, Brigham and Woman's and Massachusetts General, where she was chief Resident. Autumn worked a grueling eighty to one hundred hours a week. In the spring of two thousand and six, while in Switzerland, Autumn learned that she was pregnant. Bob had reservations about becoming a father again at an older age, but he warms the idea. Siana Sophia Marie Ferrante was born in January two thousand and seven. Autumn was thirty five and Bob fifty eight. How do you think he felt being a father again at fifty eight.

23:56 I mean, who knows how he felt it. It does feel to me that would feel really old to have kids, Like just knowing that. Yeah, being done with that part of your life, yeah. And just knowing that by the time they are getting done with high school and going into college, you are going to be like really old if you're still around at all. So it would just be a weird feeling. I think Autumn loved being a mother, but she was not willing to sacrifice her career. The following years were hard on Autumn and Bob. They adored their new daughter, but they were both driven and dedicated to their careers. Autumn and Bob are both doing very important research. They struggled to find a groove in their parenting styles. Bob's schedule was more flexible, so he picked Sianna up from daycare and started dinner. But he'd start calling Autumn soon after he returned home, and he badgered her about leaving work.

24:42 He would call her and she would She'd be like, Oh, I'm on my way, I'm coming home soon. And then he would call her two minutes later and she would say. He would say, where are you, and she'd say, I'm two minutes further than the last time you called me. He would have had to have known that her schedule was really demanding. And well in the Boston traffic, well, yeah that too. Yeah, her schedule was demanding. She was juggling research and treating patients, and her weekends were devoted to caring for Siana. The commute from the hospital to their home in nearby Canton was harrowing some days in the notorious Boston traffic, taking more than an hour. I think some days it took her commute took her three hours both ways. From the outside, the couple seemed to have it all, but there were signs of trouble. Bob stopped accompanying Autumn to her family events.

25:27 He didn't attend Sharon's wedding and stopped visiting her parents, and when the clients came to visit, Bob couldn't be bothered with them. On Siana's first birthday, Autumn wanted to try for another baby, but Bob resisted. He hated the people often thought that he was Siana's grandfather. Because Autumn had been an only child of older parents. She desperately wanted to give Siana a sibling clothes in age. Because of their age difference, adoption would be challenging. Bob finally agreed in twenty ten to try for another baby, but he made it clear to his wife that if she were to become pregnant, would be her responsibility. Wow After a year of no baby, they started IVF, which Autumn paid for. She underwent four cycles of IVF and didn't get pregnant.

26:10 In twenty eleven, Autumn and Bob decided to move to Pittsburgh. The University of Pittsburgh Medical Center wanted Autumn to start a woman's neurology program. Bob moved his lab nine research grants, along with his three mice colonies, to the university to continue his Huntington's disease research. His lab was valued at three million dollars. They were thrilled to buy a beautiful home for five hundred and ninety thousand dollars in a historic district of Pittsburgh within walking distance of the university and downtown. Being outside of Boston was more relaxed and they were able to live with more balance between their careers and their home life. They loved living in the city and being able to walk to parks, libraries, and museums.

26:50 It was much more affordable, and Autumn received a nice bump in salary. I or that she received three times her salary. I would call it a nice bump. Yeah. The change in their lifestyle must have been amazing too. Oh yeah, I got like at least two hours a day back. Yeah. On the cost of living in Pittsburgh is way lower than Boston too, so it was much better for Siana too. Autumn wrote in an email to a friend, quote, I like the easier lifestyle here a bit different in that every person is not some big shot somebody or other. But I kind of like that. I was getting tired of the overprivileged. I feel like I deal with real people, real issues here. Life in Pittsburgh was the fresh start that the couple needed, but soon Autumn became depressed about not being able to get pregnant and the lack of support from her husband in her job and with Siana.

27:40 In a personal journal entry in July twenty twelve, Autumn wrote quote, I am here writing now because I am not sure who I can talk to about things. I just found out today my third IVF cycle failed, this time not even fertilization. I am not sure where to go from here. I just know that I am incredibly unhappy. Yet I am not sure why I have wanted another child for years. But is what I want another child? Or what that represents to me? Why do people have children? Are they a representation of self? Do they represent more love in life? More pleasure? Do I want another child because these things are lacking in my life? It is not clear to me. I just feel like something is missing in my life. I think that thing missing is love Oh, it's really sad to read that.

28:24 It is really sad. That's some pretty heavy stuff to write in your journal. Yeah, for sure, it sounds like she was really struggling with I mean some of the big questions in life. You know, why am I here? Why do you have kids? Well? Yeah, those are deep questions. Yeah. By twenty thirteen, the marriage seemed irretrievably broken. Autumn confided in friends that she was making plans to leave Bob. She was frustrated by Bob's lack of emotion and empathy regarding her fourth failed IVF procedure. Autumn emailed Bob the following shortly before her death, quote, I think at some point in the near future we should go out and talk. I really don't know where to begin with all that has been going on in life recently and in my head.

29:05 I have tried to talk to you, but can't. I have written you many letters I have not sent. I don't know where things are going to go, and you may not like what you hear, but I think it is about time we talked. After he'd read the email, Bob googled divorce Pittsburgh, PA, and does increased vaginal size suggest wife is having sex with another and how would a coroner detect cyanide in an autopsy? Oh, my goodness, that is quite a combination of things to google. Mm hm. An older search from January twenty thirteen asked, what is malice of forethought. Those I'm sure we're just educational searches. Just probably watching CSI or something like that exactly. Autumn's doctor told her that her eggs had mitochondrial damage. Bob suggested that creatine could possibly help improve the quality of Autumn's eggs, as creatine provides energy.

29:58 So they're having a lot of marital difficult but Autumn still really wants another. Child, Okay. Autumn agreed toad creatine to her diet. In fact, the day she collapsed in her kitchen, she had texted Bob that morning that she'd be ovulating the next day, and he reminded her to take the creatine. So, if you remember at the very beginning of the episode, he handed her a drink when she got home, right, and that was her creatine drink. When Autumn was hospitalized, barely clinging to life, Bob called his two adult children, Michael, an investment manager, and Kimberly, a doctor for support and asked them to come to Pittsburgh. He also called Autumn's elderly parents, Lois and Bill. They rushed to Pittsburgh from their home in Towson, Maryland, to see their daughter, but when they arrived, Bob told them they needed to wait until Kim and Michael arrived later that evening to go to the hospital. Bob knew at that point that Autumn's prognosis was very grim. Later that evening, when Lois and Bill sat at Autumn's bedside holding her hand, Lois knew their daughter wasn't coming back to her. Sharon, Audam's and best friend, called and talked to her as Lois held the phone up to her ear, quote, I need you, Cianna needs you, Sharon pleaded with Autumn. Bob had told Sianna that Autumn had gone on a work trip, but now he finally told her that mommy was sick in the hospital, and Siana got to spend several hours with her.

31:16 How old was at the s. As a neurologist herself. Autumn had left a directive that she didn't want to be on life support longer than a week if there was little to no chance of recovery. On April twentieth, at twelve thirty one pm, three days after she first collapsed in her kitchen, Autumn was declared brain dead and removed from life support. When asked about an autopsy, Bob was encouraged that it should be done if for no other reason to determine whether Autumn's condition was the result of a genetic condition, what if it was something that could be passed on to their daughter. But Bob was adamant, no autopsy, not even a less invasive autopsy that consists only of an external examination and talk screening. Quote what would or not autopsy tell us?

32:01 But it wasn't Bob's decision to make. In Pennsylvania, the law mandates that an autopsy must be performed when there is not a clear cause of death. I like that law. Yeah, for sure. We've had this happen in several cases where you know, the body is cremated before there can be an autopsy, So that's a good law. Autumn had expressed a strong desire to be an organ donor. After her lover and kidneys were harvested for donation, her body was transported to the Medical Examiner's office at the time Autumn's organs were harvested, it wasn't known that she died of cyanide poisoning. Organs can recover from poisoning as long as they weren't damaged from prolonged oxygen loss. In most cases, cyanide dissipates quickly and the organs are still usable.

32:48 Now, I was going to ask you, I think you mentioned earlier that they tested her blood for cyanide when she like shortly after she came into the hospital, that they didn't have the results back of that test. No, they didn't, and if you remember, they some that blood off to a different state. I don't think there's a ton of labs that actually test for cyanide. So yeah, they hadn't received the results back yet. Organ transplants must occur very quickly after death, and the organ is kept at very strict guidelines. Heart and lungs must be transplanted within four to six hours, the liver within eight to twelve hours, and the kidney has a more lenient time of twenty four to thirty six hours. As the window of time closes, it becomes more likely that the organ will fail. You've seen this on TV all the time, right, Oh.

33:31 Yeah, people rushing the organ over to ye. But I didn't know the windows read that. No, I didn't either. On Sunday, April twenty first, twenty thirteen, Autumn's body was autopsied by doctor Todd Lukasevic, a forensic pathologist. He opted for a full autopsy as opposed to the less invasive external exam. He found nothing abnormal other than a benign tumor in her uterus, which makes me wonder if that wasn't that was why she couldn't get pread. Yeah, Autumn's liver and kid had been donated, but the rest of her internal organs appeared to be healthy. Doctor Lukasevic sent Autumn's brain and heart to specialized pathologists for further testing. Her body was sent to the funeral home the next day to be cremated. Autumn's cause and manner of death were both listed as undetermined, pending examination from the other specialist and the toxicology report, which wasn't expected for weeks later.

34:23 Autumn's heart and brain were found to be normal, except for a congenital heart defect in one of her valves found in about two percent of the population, but it was determined not to be a factor in her death. The heart defective is sometimes an issue, generally in older patients, but Autumn exhibited no symptoms of heart disease. But remember when the doctor and the er test at Autumn's blood for cyanide. The test result was returned two days after the autopsy. The amount of cyanide in her blood was three point four milligrams per leader, a deadly amount several times over. A deadly amount is anything over one milligram. Autumn's the cause of death was changed to homicide and the manner was cyanide poisoning. The funeral home was called to retrieve Autom's body for additional testing, but it was too late. Her body had been cremated the day before, but doctor lucas Sevic did save many vials of blood and tissue samples. Now that Autom's manner and cause of death were determined, the police needed to confirm the results with their crime lab. Vials of Autumn's blood were sent to the police lab for additional testing. We're going to talk about this later on. What was Autumn's cause of death really cyanide poisoning? That question, unfortunately remained unclear. If cyanide poisoning was her cause of death. Some medical experts questioned why she didn't die instantly, especially with that amount, because that was a huge amount, right, Could there be an underlying health issue?

35:47 It just seems like with that amount of cyanide, why how would it not have been the cause of her death. Just seems like there was so much cyanide. Right, And I think because she had medical intervention pretty quickly and she was put on like the Ekmoon machine, that is probably what extended her life. Entered detective Jim McGee, a twenty six year police veteran, and his partner Robert Provident, a twenty five year police veteran. Their first task was to determine how Autumn had gotten the cyanide in her system, intentionally, self administered, accidentally, or intentionally poisoned. Autumn did not work with cyanide in her practice or research. McGee and Providence's first order of business was to pay a visit to Bob Ferrante at home. He covered his mouth and shock when told that his wife died from cyanide poisoning. First, he said, why would she do this to herself? Then?

36:39 Who would do this to her? The detectives requested that Bob hand over any medications or fertility drugs Autumn was taking, including the creatine he gave to her daily. They also took two hair brushes and three small vials filled with an unknown substance. Audam's mother, Lois Klein, was confused how Autumn had come into contact with the cyanide and Lawnforce was not sharing the findings from their investigation with her. She told the Pittsburgh Post Gazette quote, I certainly am working under the assumption that she would not do that to herself. I am totally dumbfounded. I can't imagine anyone would want to hurt her. Could someone have given it to her without her knowledge? Could she have taken it on purpose? Could she have run across it in her own research. I have no knowledge, but I have great doubts that anything like that would have been used in her own research. The investigators on the case had to rush because they were afraid Bob would leave the country.

37:33 They called in the FBI to help. They wrote over one hundred search warrants, and ten detectives headed to Bob Harante's house. When he didn't answer, they removed a window air conditioner to gain access to the house. One of the detectives crawled through the window and opened the door for the others. The search warrant allowed them to take a plethora of items, including cleaning supplies or anything in the kitchen that might contain cyanide. They left with five boxes of evidence, include the contents of a paper shudder, a vacuum, and both Autumn and Bob's cars. Thirty five devices, including phones, computers, hard drives, and thumb drives, were seized and later analyzed by law enforcement. Thirty five devices. It's a lot of devices. You think we have that many devices in our house?

38:17 I think I have that many devices in our house. You know how many old ife haads? We have a lot. Whenever I go into like the Bluetooth, it's just like, yeah, you have more than you think. In late May the couple's financial records for subpoena. The records revealed that Autumn and Bob had a prenuptial agreement. They kept a lot of their money separate, and Autumn paid for the expensive fertility treatments. A lot of Bob's money went to his adult children, despite both of them having well paying jobs, which had been a point of contention in their marriage. Bob's personal accounts held over two million dollars, so if he had killed Autumn, it likely wasn't for financial reasons, although Autumn had three life insurance policies totally one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. During the search, Bob came home.

39:03 He was nice enough to the officers but called his attorney, who rushed over to the house. They didn't find anything much of interest, but a safe in the basement contained about thirty five thousand dollars in cash. Do we have a safe in. The I'd rather not talk about that, but a. Lot of times this happens for people I have like ten thousand dollars plus in their house. Yeah, I probably have forty three cents in my person. That's probably what I have too. They spent about two hours in the house. The next day, Autumn and Bob's offices were both searched, and Bob's office detectives found a receipt for a two hundred and fifty grand bottle of potassium cyanide sent overnight on April fifteenth, twenty thirteen. It was sent to a lab assistant, and it cost one hundred and sixty three dollars and ninety four cents.

39:47 Oh, that doesn't sound good. The bottle steel was broken and found to have Bob's thumb print. Computers receized a few glass vials, creatine, and another safe. Detectives thought they had enough to make an arrest, but the DA wanted them to gather more evidence and rule out suicide or a possible accident, and what was the motive That was still unclear. The say found in Bob's office was forgotten for months. When it was finally opened, three pair of diamond earrings were inside, along with baby teeth, a wooden alligator, an abundance of coins, and a MacBook Pro, which prosecutors called the gift that keeps on giving. Yeah, if you find a MacBook Pro inside a safe, there's probably gonna be some good stuff on there.

40:30 I just want to talk about baby teeth for a second. For years, I hung on to baby teeth, and eventually I was like, you know, anyways, we're going to want these baby teeth. Oh right through the way. Do you think your kids are ever going to come to his head? What did you do with our babye? You have my baby teeth? You didn't love me. Among the Google searches found on the MacBook were human toxicity three nitro propionic acid and toxic dose human three nitropropionic acid cardiomyopathy, and detecting cyanide poisoning. Those aren't incriminating at all. No, not at all. We'll be back after a break.

41:20 Weeks after the search on Ottoman Bob's house, Detective Jacqueline Weibel remembered the box of shredded paper. Remember that during the search of the Ferrante home that they had found a paper shredder. So this is the contents from the paper shredder. Gotcha. She put her inturns to good use, gave them the box, and wished them luck. Their tenacity paid off hours later when they were able to piece together a letter. It said, my dearest Diane, Kimberly, Michael and Siana. Words cannot express my deep and undying love for each and every one of you, for oh so many reasons. You have all been my rock for many years, my reason for living. The memories I have had with each of you as a family together would carry multiple lifetimes for any person. I have been very fortunate in having each of you in my life. I want you to remember those times and keep them close to your heart and in your mind, not the horrific and inexplicable events that have happened over the past three weeks. This experience has taken an incredible toll on me, one that I can no longer burden. While I remain steadfastly adamant that I did not take Autumn's life, I no longer have the strength to carry the weight of losing her, someone who shared all the pleasantries and meaningful events, especially with Siana, with the added suspicion that I would be the cause.

42:37 It has been too great a weight for me to carry. I feel like a pariah in my community, even though there are some very special people around me that have my greatest interest at heart. Kim and Mike, I have that strength for you, but these are a very different set of circumstances. Please forgive my weakness. Please all of you care for Siana. I will miss many of the important events of her life. Let her know how deeply I love her and how important it is for her to belong to this family, and that I will be with her in spirit so that she may succeed in whatever her endeavors are. Despite the loss of both her mom and dad. Be consistent in your love for her and how you interact with her. That will bring her comfort. Lastly, I will miss each and every one of you, Diane, you and I growing old together and laughing at our experiences, Kim and Mike, your success in life and your future families.

43:28 Just being together with all of you and celebrating life. Please keep working hard as well as not forgetting to enjoy the successes, even the small ones. Sometimes we forget to celebrate the simple things. Bless each of you for being in my life. I am so sorry for not physically remaining in your lives. I am with Autumn, Love, Dad, Robbie. The interns spent the next three weeks puzzling together ten more letters written by Bob. There were letters to Bob's three children and to his sister. The prosecutor would argue that this show consciousness of guilt. Would you agree, I. Mean kind of, but not necessarily. I mean, you could be distraught over losing your spouse, and.

44:10 I just can't imagine leaving your six year old daughter with no parents. No, I can't either, but I'm just saying I don't. I don't know if I agree it shows consciousness of guilt or. Up and I don't think there was a clear directive of who would gain custody of Siana. She was only six. Yeah. On May tenth, a memorial was held for Autumn, arranged by her parents. Her close friend Ellen Bubrick gave a eulogy. She said, quote, she was all the things I wanted to be. Poised, articulate, successful, resolute, brilliant, beautiful, compassionate, loyal, funny and kind. She was the best friend you could ask for, the kind of friend you could tell the most personal things, things you are afraid of, things you are ashamed of, things that make us human. And you could tell her knowing that she would treat you with loving kindness and that she wanted to love and support you.

44:58 It's not just in her word that she left this earth a better place, though, it is in all of the lives that she touched. She lives on in her beautiful daughter Sianna, in her family, in all of us. To Bob, she loved you dearly and cherished the family you built together. Only Bob wasn't there to hear the touching eulogy. His attorney had suggested he skipped the memorial, he and Sianna stayed home. Why do you think his attorney would suggest that if I was an attorney, I think that would be a really bad look to skip the funeral of your spouse. I don't understand that either. And for Siana not to have said goodbye to her mother is also really sad. Yeah. Two detectives attended the service and surreptitiously talked to Autumn's friends and family. Ellen shared with the investigators that Autumn would never take her own life. She loved her life and her daughter. She took good care of herself because her husband was older, and she'd lived with the real fear that Bob would die, and she didn't want Siana to be left without a parent. Doctor Thomas McElrath, a close friend of Autumn's, told investigators that while at a conference in San Francisco in February twenty thirteen, she told him that Bob was unsupportive, controlling, and jealous, and she was thinking about leaving him. Her best friend and cousin, Sharon corroborated this was that why she had stopped the fertility treatments. Had she changed her mind about wanting another child.

46:20 She had given her fertility medications to a friend in January. Bob was giving her the creatine supplement, and I wonder if she was taking that and not the fertility drugs, just because she was like trying to plan something and she didn't want to give it away because if she stopped taking the fertility treatments and the creatine, you know, it would just show that she was ready to leave, right, she. Wasn't submitted any longer. Yeah, that makes sense. News of a possible cyanide poisoning was too salacious not to be leaked to the media. Once they got ahold of the story, the media became fixtures outside of Bob's house. He didn't like the attention and felt like friends and neighbors were suspicious of him. He had been ready to retire for a while and was rattled by the cold stairs of the people in Pittsburgh. He pulled Siana out of kindergarten early and went to California to stay with his daughter, Kim.

47:10 He was there for a month and then decided to move to Florida and live with his sister, Diane. Bob even found a school for Siana. He knew it was likely he would be arrested and wanted her to stay in Florida with her aunt. On July twenty fifth, twenty thirteen, three months after Autumn's death, detectives traveled to Saint Augustine, Florida, with Lois and Bill Klein in tow to arrest Bob. The clients were going to take Siana to Baltimore to live with them, but the arrest didn't go as planned. Fifteen law enforcement officers from different agencies descended upon Diane Ferrante's house, only to learn that Bob had been tipped off and wasn't there. Sianna was at the house, and she was happy to see her grandparents. She hadn't seen them since Autumn's death months earlier. It's unclear if Bob was on the run, but the state police issued a BOLO.

47:57 Be on the lookout for it you. Bill Diffenderfer Bob's attorney called him and strongly suggested he get back to Pittsburgh. Can you imagine that? Call the kit you are? But he was pulled over at about seven p m. In West Virginia and arrested without incident. He spent four nights in jail before detectives provident and Lutton drove him home to Pittsburgh. He did not fight extradition. Once in front of the judge, Bob was charged with one count of first degree murder and denied bail. He pleaded not guilty. The judge issued a gag order. No one was allowed to talk to the media regarding the case to preserve the sanctity of the potential jury pool. Because Bob had over two million dollars in cash and investments over three million dollars if you included Autumn's assets, he was considered a flight risk. Most of his assets were frozen until the judge decided how to handle the estate in Siana's future. About two hundred and fifty thousand dollars was unfrozen for Bob's legal defense, but that money dried up quickly. By January. Lois and Bill Klein were seventy eight and seventy six, respectively, and while they were doting grandparents, they were too old to keep up with the demands of a six year old. Michael Ferrante, Bob's son, and his wife, Nicole, filed for custody. Their motion was struck down because they weren't considered to be close enough relatives and the Ferrantes lived in Massachusetts, not Pennsylvania, so Michael is actually Siana's brother, and that was kind.

49:26 Of strange, Yeah, that it's strange that they wouldn't be close enough. Meanwhile, due to the exceptionally complicated chemistry involved in the case, Bob was allowed to work on his case for eight hours a day from jail. After his arrest, he was put on indefinite leave from the university. Among the evidence against Bob Ferrante were messages between him and Autumn in which he constantly brought up her having an affair. There is no proof that she was. Investigators believed that this was his motive. A lab assistant told the detectives that on April fifteenth, twenty thirteen, Bob asked her if they could over potassium cyanide to the lab, the best and purest form available. He requested. It wasn't unheard of to overnight chemicals to the lab, but it only happened once or twice a year, and Bob had never made the request before. It cost one hundred and sixty three dollars and ninety four cents and was paid for with Bob's university credit card. Typically, the grant number for the chemicals intended use was recorded on the purchase order. However, no grant number was listed for the potassium cyanide. Of the one hundred and forty five chemicals housed in the lab, cyanide had never been among them, and there were no future projects slated at the lab that required it. The two hundred and fifty gram bottle at the lab was weighed by investigators, eight point three grams were missing, and Bob's fingerprints were on the bottle. Eight grams is about two teaspoons of sugar. Also of interest to investigators was Bob's purchase of a compound called three n P or

50:59 three nitropropionic acid, a naturally occurring micotoxin produced by fungi. It is used in the lab to promote cell death to replicate the conditions of diseases like als. Three NP is toxic to humans and animals, causing a dramatic decrease in neuronal degeneration and loss of mitochondrial function. In smaller doses, it can cause lethargy and diminished motor control. One of Bob's lab assistants divulged that Bob had requested three NP be ordered three times between March sixth and April third. Six weeks before Autumn's death, she had visited her doctor after suffering from extreme hair loss. She asked to have her hormone levels checked. Although Autumn had suffered from migraine headaches for two years, she had recently been having severe dizziness and fainting spells. There's not a blood test that can detect three MP. Investigators thought that Bob might have been dosing Autumn with three MP before he became impatient and switched to science before her death. At one pm the day before her death, Autumn texted Bob, I have an aura. According to my calendar, I ovulate tomorrow.

52:08 Perfect timing creatine. Smiley face. Right, I'm serious. It will make a huge difference. I'm certain of it. I sure hope so mild headache right now? Creatine will take care of that too. Will it stimulate egg production too? Smiley face. Among the Google searches found on Bob's laptop was a search would ECMO or dialysis remove trace toxins or poisons detecting cyanide poisoning potential cyanide neuroscience project? How will a coroner detect if someone is killed by cyanide, and how to remove items from your Google web history. Apparently he didn't find a good answer for that last one.

52:49 Oh those pesky Google searches. Autumn had been trying to get pregnant for several years. She was consumed with wanting another baby. She even volunteered her sparse free time to snuggle newborn babies in the nickew from one to two am. After several failed cycles of IVF, she took a few months off from the fertility hormones, but recently Bob had put Autumn on the creatine regimen. He sprinkled a creatine on toast and put it in a drink for her. He really loves his freaking creating. Creatine is safe for pregnant women and may support fertility. Research suggests that creatine supplementation during pregnancy offers potential benefits, such as maintaining energy levels in the placenta, crucial for fetal growth and development.

53:33 It may also reduce the risk of birth complications by protecting the fetal rain from oxygen deprivation during labor. Additionally, creatine could support fetal muscle growth by supplying essential building blocks for muscle tissue. But this is a relatively new development and more research is needed. So when Bob began giving autumn supplementary creatine, he could point to these studies as proof that it may increase her chance of becoming pregnant without raising her So. Bob's defense filed a pre trial motion to move the trial due to excessive media coverage. The judge agreed to move the trial to Harrisburg, but later changed his mind and the trial remained in Pittsburgh. Assistant DA Lisa Pellegrini was presenting the case for the state. A few days before the trial was to start, she was attacked by the man she was dating. He banged her head violently against the dashboard and physically restrained her. She returned to work.

54:27 The defense asked for additional peremptory challenges. They were worried the attack would give PA Pellegrini undue sympathy, but the judge denied the request. It took two days to pick the jury of eight men and four women. Opening arguments were heard at the stately Allegheny County Courthouse in downtown Pittsburgh on Thursday, October twenty third, twenty fourteen. About eighteen months after Autumn's death. Judge Jeffrey Manning presided over the trial. Prosecutors wore ladybug pins and cuff links in Autumn's honour during the trial. Autumn love ladybugs. During the prosecution's opening arguments, Pellegrini revealed that the amount of cyanide in Autumn's blood was two point two micrograms per leader. Anything over one is deadly. However, there was a problem with the lab result. Initially it came back at over three point four micrograms. You know, I was thinking, I was trying to remember what it was, and I remembered it was like more than three times.

55:21 This part is a little confusing. The test was unreliable, argued the defense. Furthermore, creatine can cause a false positive in a cyanide test. Interesting Also notable were Bob's Google searches of doctor Thomas McElrath, Autumn's good friend and sometimes conference travel buddy. In February twenty thirteen, when Autumn and McElrath were at a conference, Bob worked himself up into a lather and told her he was flying to California after he had allegedly seen flirtatious emails between them he googled suicide's golden gate Bridge. I don't think we addressed this earlier when we talked about his Google search. Does increase to vaginal size suggest wife is having with another And he really did think she was having an affair.

56:05 Yeah, it sounds like it. During the defense's opening argument, Diffenderfer argued that Bob was a model citizen, father, and researcher who quote focused on the cure and treatment for probably the worst disease that has afflicted us in the history of mankind. Diffenderfer claimed that Bob told the nine one one operator that Autumn should go to UPMC's Shady Side because he believed she was having a stroke and it was a stroke center. When he referred to her folks, he meant her colleagues. We talked about this when we talked about the nine to one one call. It wasn't in the clip that we had, but he said something to the effect of, like, we'll take her here because your folks are here, okay, And I think we inferred it as her parents right as he just meant her colleagues okay.

56:48 And lastly, the attorney said that Bob declined the autopsy initially because he thought that would prevent organ harvesting, which was important to Autumn, and he didn't think it would be possible if an autopsy was done. Doctor Jinho Kim, who worked in the lab with Bob, testified for the prosecution. He told the jury that Bob asked him to keep the potassium cyanide on his workbench. After Autum's death, he contacted police after he realized someone had moved the deadly compound when he found it in the lab refrigerator. He said he knew of no research in the lab that required cyanide, but acknowledged that it was sometimes used in the lab to promote cell death. After eight days and fifty witnesses, the prosecution rested. The most damning evidence against Bob Ferrante was the Google searches, the rush order of the cyanide, and the presence of cyanide in Autumn's blood.

57:39 Even if the amount was questionable, it was indisputable that she had cyanide in her blood. We'll be back after a break. The defense hammered away at a technician from Quest Diagnostics who did the initial cyanide test on Autumn's blood. Remember, the test had a discrepancy It originally came back at three point four and then later at two point two, but both amounts are lethal. The medical examiner sent Autumn's blood for additional cyanide testing to the National Medical Services or NMS lab. NMS is known to be the most prestigious lab in the country.

58:20 The cyanide level came back as non lethal. However, there were several reasons for this. When Autumn arrived at the hospital, very little blood was drawn. Only one vial of blood remained from the first blood draw. This blood was crucial to the investigation because it was before she had been given fluids or any therapeutic measures had been taken such as EKMO or dialysis. Remember when Autumn was first at the hospital in the emergency room, they had a hard time drawing any blood, right, and so they had very very little of this that first draw. Yeah, the medical examiner sent this file to the MMS lab, but for an unknown reason, the test didn't work and the supply was exhausted. Forty nine vials of Autumn's blood remained, but they were drawn after her blood had been cycled through echmo for three days, and cyanide is not stable in the blood or in a test tube and the sample was tested eighteen days after the blood was drawn.

59:16 Another technician testified that the NMS lab's spectrophotometer was not working and they would not be able to produce an exact amount of cyanide in Autumn's blood, but a range. Furthermore, the vial of blood had been opened and used for other tests. Each time the vial was opened, it was a chance for the cyanide to further evaporate. One article that I read said that half of the cyanide can evaporate within an hour, but it remained stable in the organs and tissues. At this point, the medical examiner couldn't use another lab because too much time had elapsed. The test results ultimately provided by NMS to the medical examiner measured the cyanide between point three and point five, on the high end of a non lethal amount.

59:59 Remember, one micro graham was the lethal dose, so this test it was quite a bit away from one micrograham. Also, if jurors were to believe either of the two quest blood tests that Autumn had an extremely lethal dose of cyanide in her blood, she would have died much quicker than three days. The defense was trying to put reasonable doubt in the heads of the jurors, and they were succeeding. On day ten, as the trial was wrapping up, the defense called legendary forensic pathologist doctor Cyril Weckt as an expert witness. But we've been running into him a lot lately, haven't we Wekt has consulted in high profile cases such as Michael Jackson, John Beney, Ramsay, and JFK.

1:00:39 He once served as coroner and medical examiner in Allegaty County, Pennsylvania. Known to be verbose and self important, his current value as an expert witness is questionable and polarizing. Oh wow, that was kind of harsh there, I'll say. Weckt pointed to structural abnormalities in Autumn's heart, the thickening of her heart valves and some abnormal arteries as to why he couldn't rule out her cause of death being heart related. He also said that the creatines she was taking could alter the cyanide test. Kim and Michael Ferrante testified next, recalling their childhoods as loving and their father as supportive. They both liked Ottam and had fond memories of her. There was no drama until the defense called their final witness, Robert Ferrante.

1:01:26 Once on the stand, Bob said, quote, my wife and I were like two peas in a pod. We were almost exactly alike other than the years between us. We thought alike, did everything alike. She was having difficulty. She was becoming marginalized by the system. Harvard is typical of that. What they try to do is just create lots of competition for people, so they get the best people there. All the time, being forty miles out to be engaged in some of the peripheral hospitals that hired a number of people to directly compete with her, and it became difficult for both her research and clinical practice. Bob took issue with Autumn being portrayed as the rising star in her field. It was himself and his experience that the University of Pittsburgh sought. He claimed he secured a job for Autumn, not the other way around as many saw it.

1:02:15 Bob said they went through a bit of a rough patch when he thought Autumn had been cheating, but they'd cleared that up and they had recently taken a nice family trip to Puerto Rico. He raided their marriage and ate out of a ten, why would you raid our marriage? Ten? Eleven out of ten for me? He claimed that he needed the cyanide to initiate cell death in an exciting new study he was working on in which the three NP was not working. Ferrante told the jury that he was working closely with a patient stricken with als named Neil Alexander, who founded the Live Like Lou Foundation. Alexander offered up to two hundred thousand dollars to Bob to begin research that replicated skin cells into stem cells that would mirror brain cells, and Bob explained away his Google searches as curiosity. He was on the stand for an hour and seventeen minutes before the prosecution sank their teeth into him. Bob was calm and affable as Prosecutor Lisa Pellegrino began questioning him. He was adamant that the cyanide ordered was for the upcoming research project, and he'd announced it at a department meeting, although no one else remembered this meeting. He made no secret of ordering the cyanide or unboxing it when it arrived. This was kind of strange.

1:03:30 So in the lab in front of his employees, and he ordered it through one of the lab tacks, and when it came he unboxed it and he was like, you know, like, hey, look the scianize here. Bob said he had no idea where the missing eight point three grams had gone. He admitted to going through Autumn's email and finding what he called flirtatious messages, but denied that he thought she was having an affair. When he was again questioned about his Google searches, he said that many of them were because he was nervous about Autumn's organs being donated after she'd been exposed to NP three and cyanide. Bob said that when Autumn came home in the night of April seventeenth, he did not give her a drink with creatine, but it was her habit to drink it when she got home. At four twenty pm, after two hours and seventeen minutes, Frante was finished with his testimony and the defense rested after hearing from seventeen witnesses. I'm surprised that he was on the stand for that short of amount of time.

1:04:27 Yeah, thought it would be days. Yeah. The judge dismissed the jury but told them that he planned to have them sequestered after closing arguments until a verdict was reached. On Thursday, November sixth, after closing arguments and the judge's instructions, the jury began deliberations at one pm. The jury's first poll had three people for guilty, two for non guilty, and seven undecided. There were some angry outbursts among the jurors until they settled into a rhythm and agreed to judiciously re listen to the nine to one one call review witness testimony one at a time. They broke at seven pm and reconvened the next day. As they weren't their way through the witness list on Friday, the jury didn't ask the judge any questions, leaving everyone wondering what was going on. Late on Friday afternoon, they took another vote, nine guilty, three undecided. They'd made a lot of progress. By six thirty pm, they had a consensus guilty of first degree murder. Does that surprise you at all?

1:05:30 I mean, it doesn't really surprise me. No, I wouldn't have bet. I don't know if I would have been surprised if they had acquitted him either. Though, Yeah, there was a little reasonable doubt. Yeah. In February twenty fifteenth, at the sentencing hearing, Lois Klein was present, but the elderly woman was unable to get the words out, so Assistant Da Lisa Pellegrini read her statement as she held her hand. Quote, the loss of Autumn was never expected and has been very hard on William and I. There was no longer peace in our lives. He has definitely ruined our lives. All she ever wanted was to be able to help people. She was her only child, and the light of our lives has now been extinguished. Lois went on to talk about how Siana was thriving despite the circumstances. She danced, took karate lessons, and was a terrific speller. She lamented the trips she and Bill had to sacrifice and the income they'd lost.

1:06:21 A letter was also read from Sharon Audam's cousin and best friend, the loss of Autumn had left a large void in her life. I watched a couple of shows about this case and Sharon was on them, and she was just heartbroken. It was really sad. Kim and Michael Ferrante did not attend the hearing or write letters on their father's behalf. Kurante declined to speak, but the judge had a lot to say to him. Before Judge Jeffrey Manning handed down his sentence, he read a quote to him by author W. H. Auden quote, society must stand in further murder victim to either demand atonement or grant forgiveness. We are here today to demand atonement. Robert Frante was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

1:07:07 Ferrante appealed, claiming that the batch cyanide blood test shouldn't have been allowed as evidence and that a venue change should have been allowed. His first and subsequent appeals have all been denied. Bottomn Kleind wasn't just a world class doctor and researcher. She was a loving mother, a baker, a reader, a cross stitcher, and a friend. Her favorite color was purple and she could touch her tongue to her nose. She had a wonderful laugh and is missed by many. Rest in peace. Autumn. While researching this case, I came across something called cyano kit and it can save the life of someone poisoned with cyanide if they present themselves to the er within two hours of the poisoning. The cyano kit binds to the cyanide and converts it to bidamin B twelve.

1:07:53 That's interesting. Yeah, no idea such a thing existent. I guess that would only be useful if, like you accidentally took sciotidically knew you took it. In honor of Autumn's body of work, Brigham and Woman's Hospital named their neurology program after her. Both of Autumn's donated organs were successfully transplanted. A man in his sixties wrote a letter to Bob thanking him for a second chance of life. O that sice I was wondering about, Like, if you're poisoned with cinaide, and I know we talked about it like that, it can, you know, go, it can get out of your organs and stuff. But it just I think if you have like a healthy system and you know the rest, well, I guess if you're getting a donated organ, you're not that healthy, but your blood is healthy, it can flush it out pretty quickly.

1:08:34 I think if you were the recipient of an organ, you would probably not want it from someone that had cyanide poisoning. But I'm glad of working, you would be pretty freaked out. Well, yeah, of course. So Sadly, Bill Klein died in twenty seventeen in lois in twenty twenty one, so Siana was still a minor. I really couldn't find any information. But I hope she's well and I hope she's well cared for. I think there were other people in her life, maybe her siblings. There well, I hope so too. Yeah, I'm still a little uncertain about a motive in this case. Yes, I am toob was a very smart man, and I just can't imagine that he would think that he could order cyanide and get away with it.

1:09:15 Yeah, I agree with that, And I also do wonder about the motive too, because I know, I'm sure he loved his daughter, but he didn't seem like that into having kids regardless, So why not just get a divorce and move on with your life? Like what? I don't know what would be stopping him. He had plenty of money, So the motive part of it is a little bit perplexing to me as well. I think it could be ego driven. He did seem like a man who had his ego and like he wanted. It made clear that no, it was an autumn that was off for the job in Pittsburgh. It was me. Yeah, you hear stuff like that, it really does make you kind of wonder. But then yeah, also ordering the cyanide, I mean, it sounds like he had a good excuse, not really of core. But if it wasn't like documented, hm, it.

1:10:01 Still seems I don't think the research was going to start that week or anything, so it definitely didn't need to be organed. And all those Google Google searches are they're always so telling. That is one of the most telling things to me, is those Google searches, Like I mean, I can see googling some things out of curiosity, but the things he searched for were pretty specific. Yeah, I think you could give them benefit of the doubt on a few of them, but not all of them. Yeah, exactly. Do you think having a spouse in the medical field is a danger to. Your al I mean, not necessarily. I don't even know how to answer that. No. Of course, people in the medical field are no more likely to kill their spouse than someone who's not. But do decide to kill their spouse, they're probably more capable of doing it in a way that is harder to detect than if you weren't in the medical field.

1:10:50 So it's a lot easier for people in the medical field to have access to arsenic or cyanide or you know, any other number of deadly toxins. Yeah, for sure. Do you think that May December relationships can work? Like the difference in their ages is twenty three years. Yeah, that's a pretty big difference. Yeah, I think it's really I think it is really tough to make it work unless you have a lot of money and you can keep yourself young and you can hire people to help care for your children, like Alec Baldwin for example. Okay, yeah, but there's even if you have a lot of money, there's no guarantee that you're going to live longer and healthier, I guess. But I think like a five year difference is okay. I think anything longer than that makes it pretty challenging.

1:11:32 I mean, I think you definitely have less in common the further away your age gets. I think you have less in common, less things to talk about. Plenty of men your age that would data twenty two year. Old and have no problem with it, for sure, But to make it work in the long term. I do think it would be it would be harder. Yeah. Before we wrap up this case, I wanted to mention that historically, medical research has been disproportionately focused on men. While the National Institutes of Health now mandates that women may make up half of the participants and federally funded clinical trials, disparities remain. A study analyzing twenty thousand clinical trials found that women are still underrepresented in studies in cardiology, oncology, neurology, immunology, and hematology. This imbalance is significant because men and women often experience diseases differently. For example, heart disease symptoms and women can differ from those in men, leading to misdiagnosis and ineffective treatments when studies primarily focus on male subjects.

1:12:33 Racial and ethnic minorities are also vastly underrepresented in medical research. Too often, women's symptoms are dismissed by doctors, told their illness is in their head, leading many to struggle with misdiagnosed or overlooked conditions, which makes the loss of doctor Autumn client even sadder. She took the time to listen to patients with compassion and understood how it felt to be misunderstood by a doctor. That was very well said. I'll just add my mom passed away from a heart attack that had she had not been diagnosed with anything beforehand. And I often wonder, because I've read that before, that you know, women in a lot of cases there, you know, the first heart attack that you have as a woman is more likely to kill you because they're less likely to have been diagnosed beforehand with any kind of heart disease.

1:13:22 Yeah, the symptoms are so much different in women, and even across you know women, the symptoms vary from person to perpose. Yeah. So I just mentioned this because doctor Adam Klein wanted to change that. Yeah, and she just seemed like a remarkable woman who really cared about women's health. Yeah, it's a really it's a huge loss. And even her scumbag husband, I think he did really valuable research too, So it's a it's a huge loss for the medical community to lose both of them in their field of research. Yeah, for sure. I want to mention the sources that I use for this case. I read a book called Death by Cyanide by Paula Ree Award, who did a great job. Researching this case. I also used newspapers dot com, the Pittsburgh paper that Paula Reid writes for. She wrote a lot of the articles on newspaper dot com, and both of those sources were very helpful. And I wanted to thank our friend Debbie again for recommending this case to us.

1:14:20 Debbie from True Crime University. So please give Debbie a listen and we will post the recipe. It will be the first thing on our show. Notes. Okay, we have the rest of the weekend in front of us. What are we going to do? Well, we lose an hour, so it's really not the whole we have to account for that. You really focused on that. You're really bummed about losing that hour. I can't get over it. Don't well you did in your defense, you lost a lot of sleep this week. I thought, I'm worried about the sleep I missed. I missed hour of productivity of doing something important in the world, of working on my next case. We're watching an episode of what we do in the Shadows or whatever.

1:15:04 So how you doing without any football or this is like, it is a. Hard time for me. It's a hard time. I'm not a basketball fan. And no football basketball. I do, but even that, I'm not that into it. He hasn't even started yet, right, I don't. Even know, But no, I don't. I don't think so. So yeah, it's it's a tough time of year. So I'm reading this book that I am kind of excited about getting back to. It's called The Husbands by Holly Gramazio g R. A. M. A. Z Io, and I'm really enjoying it. It doesn't have the best reviews on but I'm going to tell you a little bit about it. It's not giving anything away that's not revealed in the first chapter or two. Okay, But this woman, I think she's in her early thirties, she's not married, and all of a sudden she opens her attic like she has a pull down attic, you know with the stairs, and she pulls down the attic for some reason, and all of a sudden a man appears in her her house, and her house is different. This guy is her husband, okay, and she's just like, how how did I get a husband?

1:16:08 And then she figures out that the attic is somehow producing husbands, and she decides that she doesn't like the first one, so she like makes an excuse and gets the backup in the attic, and so like the attic keeps keeps producing husbands, like literally like husband after her husband. Keeps going until she finds one that she wants. Well, I don't know how the book ends, and I if I knew that, I wouldn't tell you. I have like twenty five percent of the book to go. But I'm really enjoying it so far because it's the premise is really original and funny to me, just that you know, she's meeting all these different men, and even if it's like she's like you're chewing with your mouth open, No, you don't shower enough. No, you know, it's just like all these just teeny tiny, little not really teeny tanks.

1:16:51 Some of our are more major than others. It's just so far, I'm just really that's. An interesting concept. It's like a metaphor for online dating, do you think. Or yeah, I mean pretty much. Yeah, I'm just curious what I know you're going to say, like I'm a good wife and all that stuff, but like what qualities would you look for and a spouse or what are the deal breakers for you? Oh? I don't know. I haven't thought about this for many, many years. We do get along really well, but part of it the has I think we've trained each other to extinguish some of the habits that weren't so attractive. So I think you're a lot neaterer than you used to be.

1:17:34 And I'm probably a little nicer than I used to be. No, No, I used to be a lot moodier I think than I am now. Maybe a little bit. Yeah, you agreed to that really quickly. Maybe I said maybe maybe. I wouldn't say for. Sure, but it's just interesting to think about, like if you were to, you know, put all the qualities that you were looking for in a mate, but then you don't even know, like if you could get those qualities, you might get board of that per And actually that kind of a little bit of his brother, But she does that does kind of happen. She gets this that checks all the boxes, and she's like, just maybe you're a little too perfect. I probably I can't remember for sure, but I probably made a list like that when I was like in my twenties, because I was like an engineer, so I was very logical and would think a spreadsheet. You mean, I probably made a spreadsheet with like, you know, different qualities that I was looking for, and then I had a column that had like a waiting Well, this quality is really important, this one maybe not as important, and that I would probably put in a rating for every wish woman that I dated.

1:18:35 Produce that. So I don't. I'm pretty sure I did not actually do that, but it would it wouldn't shock me if I had done it. Well, I think I won the lottery with you. You're a very good, very good husband. And like kind of stuttered with doesn't mean it's not true. We all know I stood her a lot. Like when I can't, I literally cannot say. The word deteriorate was perfect. I wrote the script and I had it in there like three times. So you don't just leave that word out. You would think you would think I would learn my lesson. We deteriorate that you didn't again. Say it if you're saying it, But if you're like her brain deteriorated in the well, I guess I said it there. Maybe I just need to keep practicing or not think about it. Well, one thing that has not deteriorated, I said, I read the second time, deteriorate. It is our appreciation for our audience. We love you guys so much, and we appreciate all your support and all your kindness.

1:19:34 We sure do. We'd love to hear from you as well. Follow us on social media Instagram, Facebook, We are on both of those, or we on other places. I can't remember where we're at. Well, you've been working on getting some TikTok stuff together and stalled out there, but we'll get it there eventually. Yeah. We will send us an email at Lovemrykill at gmail dot com and consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash love Marykill. We have one tier five dollars a month, which gets you early ad free access and a monthly. Bonus episode until next time. Don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband.

1:20:52 Her vital signs were rapidly deteriorating. Is it like I'm telling you perfect, I'm going to do it one more time and then I'm going to change the work, all right? Blood coming from a vein is less oxygenated. Damn it, say it oxygenated. Oxygenated. There I feel like I don't like I'm just a cartoon character saying it. Sometimes