March 17, 2025

Dr. Autumn Klein and Robert Ferrante

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Autumn Klein, 41, was a respected neurologist who lived and worked in Pittsburgh with her husband, Robert Ferrante, 64, a well-known research scientist. She collapsed suddenly in her home on April 17, 2013 and died shortly after. As investigators searched for answers, they uncovered her shocking cause of death and a web of secrets that pointed to someone close to her. What seemed like a tragic and unexpected medical emergency soon turned into a chilling case of deception and betrayal. Who killed Autumn?

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Today's snack: Maple brown sugar cookies

Sources:

WEBVTT

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Hi.

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I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing

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we've learned in over twenty years of marriage.

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It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina.

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How are you.

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I'm doing good? How are you?

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I'm great. It's a beautiful sunny day here in Michigan.

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It is beautiful time change tonight.

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Uh, how you lose an hour? I don't like to

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lose an hour. I like to gain an hour.

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Yeah, it is much more pleasant. So you're pretty perky

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considering your international travels this week.

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It was a whirlwind week. But I'm back from Berlin

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and feeling back to normal already.

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I don't know how you do that, because you got

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there and you pretty much didn't sleep for how many hours.

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Probably like twenty four hours. I didn't sleep because I

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flew like a red eye flight, and I can't sleep

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on airplanes. I just can't do it. So I was, Yeah,

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I was.

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Up for a little ambient and you still couldn't sleep.

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I took an ambient I still couldn't sleep. I was

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in the I must have been I suspended yes, Yeah,

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I was in a fog because I watched an hour

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of a movie Long Legs. I downloaded it before I

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got on the flight. I watched an hour of it

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after I took the ambient I couldn't get to sleep

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and I don't remember a thing from it. So, yeah,

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I was in a fog.

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And then you get off of the airplane in a

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foreign country. Are you still in a fog?

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Yes, still in a fog. I don't like that for

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you really, you know, used to it.

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But you got there safely.

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I did, and I got back safely.

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That's great.

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Yeah.

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Well I did bring you a snack.

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I'm glad to hear that.

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Apologize to the people of Pennsylvania and the people especially

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of Pittsburgh because the snack has nothing to do with them.

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Oh okay, but it's one of my favorites. I made

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them recently for a Patreon episode. Yeah, so I was

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just craving them. So I made you some maple cookies.

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I made you maple brown sugar cookies. I love those

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cookies with some pecans in them.

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Awesome.

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You want to try it? I sure do, all right,

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So what did you think of the cookie?

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I loved them. I mean, they're so good. I love

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brown sugar cookies. I love maple flavoring. I think it's

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an underrated flavor. The only thing I don't love is

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the pecans. Really, they're not bad, but I just to me,

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I would I like.

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Something to sink my teeth into, So I really like it,

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not in a cookie. And one of these days I'm

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going to make chocolate chip cookies. I'm gonna put walnuts

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in them, and you all are just gonna have to

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do them because I never ever do that.

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Okay, I give them nine and a half out of ten.

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And a half.

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I just added a half.

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Oh, all right, whatever. Before we get started, I want

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to thank our friend Debbie from True Crime University for

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recommending this case to us. Debbie's the best. If you

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haven't listened to True Crime University, please do. She's great.

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The true crime community is so generous. Debbie did this

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case too, but she reached out to me and said, hey,

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this would be a great fit for you guys. So

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that's just how great everyone is in the true crime community.

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So thank you, Debbie. We love you.

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Yeah, thanks Debbie.

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Today I'm going to tell you the story of doctor

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Autumn Klein. And Robert Frante. On April seventeenth, twenty thirteen,

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doctor Autumn Klein, forty one, worked an exceptionally long fifteen

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hour day at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center Presbyterian.

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Autumn was a highly sought after neurologist who specialized in

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women's care. At the apex of her career, her husband,

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Robert Frante, sixty four, was a well respected researcher in

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neuro degenerative diseases. Autumn and her husband lived in a

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beautiful home just minutes from the hospital. Her day began

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at eight twenty seven am and did an end until

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eleven eighteen pm. She texted her husband of ten years, Bob,

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and told him that she was about to leave the

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hospital to begin the eighteen minute walk home to their

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cozy one hundred year bungalow that they shared with their

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six year old daughter, Sianna. Be careful, Bob texted back,

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as automn walked through the door. Or Bob handed her

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a drink he'd made for her. Seconds later, she collapsed

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on the floor and began to moan and breathe erratically.

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Her eyes were open but not focusing. At eleven fifty two.

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Bob frantically called nine to one one, coming out one with.

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Please please, I'm in two nineteen litten having you. I

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think my wife is having a sup.

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What city, ts fro Bro, what city are you in?

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I'm in Pittsburgh.

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Okay, please please.

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Okay, just hang out a light, Bob, They're coming.

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She has this sort of like apetoid hand. It's all sick.

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He's not breathing normally now, okay, I mean, interests are

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not breeding normally.

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I mean her chest is rising and falling.

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Correct, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, big huge breath. She she kind

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of difficulty breathing. She's having so much sure now she's

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like having a seizure like sheeheart in church. She felt

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so frank that she almost just that it was about

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almost two months ago. And then she said two of

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these other issues, was she like objections or all kinds

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of drugs? Yes, all kinds of drugs.

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We had to piece together that nine one one call,

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and then nine one one call was several minutes long.

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What did you think of that?

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I don't even know what to think about that. I mean,

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I don't I'd love to hear a recording of him

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talking when he wasn't on the nine one one call

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because I don't know how much of that was just

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him being completely frantic versus how much of that is

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just the way he talks to people. But it was

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very it was very strange.

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I think that that was unusual for her. I think

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he was a calm, professional man.

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Yeah. It was also really disturbing to hear Augumn breathing

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in the background to that one part.

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We will talk about that a little bit more later.

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This didn't make the call, but at one point Bob

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recommended that Autumn be brought to UPMC Shady Side instead

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of the UPMC Presbyterian where she worked, which was a

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Level one trauma center. UPMC's Shady Side was not. Bob

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said that it would be more convenient for her folks,

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but they were in Baltimore.

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Hmm, okay, that doesn't make much sense.

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When paramedics arrived twelve minutes later, which is kind of

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a long time considering that they're in downtown Pittsburgh. Yeah,

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you would think Autumn was lying on her back, eyes open,

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but unconscious. Her vital signs were rapidly deteriorating. The first

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responders noticed a gallon sized bag labeled creatine on the

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counter with a small vial next to it. I don't

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believe that the first responders took those with them. Kay

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Autumn's usual pale complexion was cherry Rudd. The ambulance rushed

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her back to the hospital she had left just sixty

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three minutes earlier. When she arrived at the er, Autumn

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remained unresponsive and her vital signs continued to crash. Her

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heart rate what in the low forties. Her blood pressure

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was forty eight over thirty six. Her pupils were no

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longer reactive to light. Doctors and nurses worked quickly together

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to insert a breathing tube, start an IV, and draw

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Autumn's blood. It was especially challenging because Autumn was five

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feet seven inches tall and weighed only one hundred seven pounds.

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They moved to her femoral artery to get more blood

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and failed again. They decided to put a center line

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into her jugular vein for easier blood draws and medication dosing.

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When nurses were finally able to collect a blood sample

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as it flowed into the tube, they noted unusually bright

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red blood blood coming from a vein is less oxygenated

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than arterial blood. The bright red venous blood indicated that

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oxygen was not being delivered to Autumn's cells. They were suffocating.

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When Bob Farante arrived moments later, he told the doctors

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that Autumn had been suffering from severe headaches in recent

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weeks while undergoing fertility treatments. The doctor's feared a hemorrhagic

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stroke and rushed her to get a CT scan and

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an EKG. Neither test revealed any issues. Autumn appeared to

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be a healthy, forty one year old woman. The doctors

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were confused about what was causing her sudden deterioration. She

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wasn't suffering from a heart attack, stroke, or a brain aneurysm.

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Why was Autumn crashing? Concerned doctors from all over the

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hospital crowded into Autumn's room to assist in her care.

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When the initial lab results came in, her condition was

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even more perplexing. Her blood counts appeared within normal range,

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although her oxygen level and pH were both off. Epinephrine

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was being administered every few minutes to keep her breathing

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as the hospital's staff worked feverishly. Her husband offered quote,

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she really enjoyed what she was doing. She loved her job.

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And she would never want to survive if she couldn't

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be herself and continue her work.

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That's a weird thing to say.

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Yeah. At two seventeen a m Autumn went into cardiac arrest.

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The doctors took turns straddling her on the girl aggressively

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delivering chest compressions, breaking the frail woman's ribs in the process.

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Just as they were about to call a time of death,

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a thready pulse was felt in Autumn's carotid artery. A

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defibrillator shocked her heart back into a regular rhythm, but

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her pulse was still weak. Doctors decided to use extra

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corporeal membrane oxygenation, or EKMO, to deliver more oxygen to

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Autumn's blood, but she began to crash again. ECHMO pumps

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blood from the body into a heart lung machine. Carbon

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dioxide is removed, and oxygen rich blood is warmth and

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then delivered back into the body. It's often used as

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a short term solution when the patient is struggling to

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get enough oxygen, but the procedure put Autumn's limbs at

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risk of amputation because of reduced blood flow, but it

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was the only solution her doctors had at the time.

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She was also placed in a hypothermic state, which sometimes

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has favorable outcomes after cardiac arrest. By putting less strain

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on the heart and brain, Autumn's heart rate returned to

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normal and she was stable through the night. In the morning,

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she was removed from echo and taken to the emergency

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department to the cardiac floor of the hospital for blood

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pressure was still low when she remained non reactive to light,

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had no gag reflex, and did not react to pain stimuli.

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Autumn's EEG or electro encephalogram, which measures brain waves, was flat,

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usually indicating an irreversible coma. One doctor called her profoundly

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comatose and put her chances of a full recovery at

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less than four percent, but because she'd been kept in

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the hypothermic state, they hoped once her body was at

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a normal temperature for seventy two hours, she'd have a

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more favorable prognosis. Doctor Clifton Callaway, an emergency physician, when

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asked to consult on doctor Autumnklein's case, suggested she be

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tested for cyanide toxicity. Her blood was drawn and sent

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to a lab in Virginia for analysis. It was a

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long shot, but worth a try. It would take a

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few days for the result.

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Cyanide at toxic levels can render a person unconscious in

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a minute and kill them in as little as five.

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A lethal dose is two hundred and fifty milligrams about

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one hundredth of an ounce. Cyanide Poisoning causes convulsions, coughing,

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and something called the cyanide scream.

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Do you remember during the nine one one call when

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Autumn was moaning?

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I do.

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I think that might have been the cyanide screen.

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That's interesting, I've never heard of that before. Cyanide comes

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from algae, fungi, and bacteria. It also occurs naturally in

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fruit seeds or stones, such as apples and peaches, and

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also in cassava roots and Madagascar bamboo. The golden bamboo

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lemur who grazes on the bamboo has developed a high

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tolerance to it. It's also a component of cigarette smoke.

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Cyanide starves the cells of oxygen, eventually shutting down the

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brain and the heart. It's rarely used in homicides, likely

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because it's hard to obtain. Although uncommon, it is sometimes

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used in suicide. A ten year study in New York

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City showed that of sixty five hundred suicide deaths, only

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seventeen used cyanide as a means. Telltale signs of cyanide

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poisoning are cherry redskin and the smell of almonds.

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Or burnt almonds. I think remember Autumn had cherry red

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skin when Bob called it.

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Right In New Jersey in two thousand and three, a

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teenager purchased cyanide online under the guise of plating metal,

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but used it to poison and kill a young man

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who was pursuing his girlfriend. So it's interesting plating metal,

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is that, like the use for cyanide?

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One of the valid uses?

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Are there? Other like, are there a lot of valid

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uses for cyanide?

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There are some valid uses. It's used in the tanning process,

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it's used in the preservation of wood, and I mean

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there's just some medical uses for it too, and we're

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going to talk about those in a little bit.

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Interesting, Okay. Autumn Marie Klein was born in Baltimore, Maryland,

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on November thirtieth, nineteen seventy one.

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Hey, that's your birthday.

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It is. To her strict but adoring parents, Lois and Bill,

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Autumn was their only child born to them. Later in life,

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Lois worked for the irs and Bill was an electrician.

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Although she was an only child, Autumn was lucky enough

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to grow up with her four who lived next door

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on the other side of a row house. Sharon, seventeen

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months older, was Autumn's lifelong best friend. They even developed

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a private language that only they understood. Sharon had a

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bed in Autumn's bedroom. She spent every weekend with the

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clients and has fond memories of pancake breakfasts on Saturday

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mornings and dancing in the kitchen to fifties music. Autumn

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knew from a young age that she wanted to be

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a doctor. She and Sharon played hospital with their stuffed animals.

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Autumn attended Saint Paul's School for Girls, where she excelled academically.

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In middle school, she fell in love with science. In

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high school, she began performing in plays. A nately shy,

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Autumn blossomed on stage. After graduation, she decided to attend

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Amherst College, a small, highly selective liberal arts college in

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central Massachusetts where Robert Frost once taught. Lois kept a

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tight rein on Autumn and had a hard time letting

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her go away. She told Autumn she couldn't go, but

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she went anyway. Autumn in part chose Amherst because the

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boy she was dating went there, but they soon broke up.

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She was the first in her family to attend college.

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It was a big deal. Enjoying her newfound freedom, she

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returned home as little as possible. Autumn majored in neuroscience

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and women's Studies. She participated in the work study program

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by helping out in the dining hall a few days

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a week. She made friends quickly, many of them became

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lifelong friends. Autumn became concerningly thin. Her friends suspected she

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might be suffering from an eating disorder. She barely ate

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and had an exercise bike in her room that she

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seemed to always be riding. When her friends contacted Lois

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Audum's mother, she told her if she didn't knock it off,

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she was going to make her come home. It seemed

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to work. Autumn loved college life and her freedom. During

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her second year at Amherst, Autumn became an ra and

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continued to work in the cafeteria while focusing on her

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pre med classes. She graduated magna cum laudie in nineteen

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ninety three and went on to Boston University's rigorous seven

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year dual MD PhD program. She was a dedicated student,

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Laser focused on becoming a doctor, but Autumn still found

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time for her friends, dating, completed a marathon in three

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hours and forty eight minutes, which is really good, and

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spent a semester in Paris during her radiology rotation.

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So people like Autumn, I don't understand how they do that.

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I'm always amazed by people like that, Like I could.

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Barely go to college and keep up with my classes,

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let alone do all those others.

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And I trained to run a marathon.

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Very very ambitious woman.

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After an internship at Brown University, she entered residency in

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the Harvard Neurology Residency Program at Brigham and Women's Hospital

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and Massachusetts General Hospital, and ultimately served as chief Resident.

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In nineteen ninety five, she worked at the Bedford Veterans

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Administration Medical Center Lab under a professor of neurology and pathology,

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doctor Neil Cohal, and a renowned researcher named Robert Ferranti.

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Autumn was passionate about helping women through neurological pregnancy issues,

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particularly epilepsy. Migraine headaches, as well as the effects of

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oral contraceptives and hormones on headaches. She founded Brigham's Women's

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Neurology program in two thousand and three in Boston. After

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years being in ultra competitive Boston. In twenty eleven, she

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moved to the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center and founded

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a women's neurology program, where she worked until the time

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of her death. Autumn was a researcher, author of books

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and scholarly journals, a practitioner, lecturer, wife, and mother. She

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thrived in all of these roles. She was called a

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rising star and a pioneer in her field. Nationally recognized

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as a leader in women's neurology, she knew the importance

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of studying women's health as its own distinct field and

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was proud to offer a different perspective than her male colleagues.

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In a tribute to Autumn in the February twenty fourteen

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issue of Continuum, her colleagues wrote she had a passion

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for her clinical mission to bring expertise to the care

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of women with neurological problems and to help them achieve

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both their family and medical goals. She understood that patient

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education was a essential for excellent care, and she dedicated

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herself to the role of an available and supportive physician.

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She gave patients time and she listened as she sought

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to help them understand their illnesses so they might become

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their own advocates. Autumn was brilliant, capable, compassionate, and talented

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at work, but her favorite role was mom.

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So I hope I painted a picture of Autumn being

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just this amazing physician and an amazing woman.

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Yeah, she had so much going for her, like very

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ambitious and really super impressive.

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Robert Frante was born on October twenty first, nineteen forty eight,

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to Jessica and James Ferrante. He grew up in Quincy, Massachusetts,

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with two older siblings, Diane and James. James was a

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pastry chef and Jessica work part time as a seamstress.

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Music and education were cornerstones of the Ferrante household. Bob

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graduated from the private boys high school, Chauncey Hall School

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in nineteen sixty six. In nineteen seventy, he graduated with

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a bachelor's degree from the University of Bridgeport and Kinne

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Etiquette and a year later a master's degree in neuroscience,

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just as the field was burgeoning. In August nineteen seventy one,

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he married his first wife, Diane McLaughlin, an elementary school teacher,

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which was the same year that Autumn Klein was born.

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Bob began his career as a neurology research assistant and

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later as a research supervisor. He worked for years at

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the Eunice Kennedy Shreiver Center before he moved on to

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Massachusetts General Hospital, where he focused his attention on Huntington's disease.

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Huntington's disease is a rare genetic condition that causes the

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deterioration of brain cells, impacting thought, mental health, and movement.

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The fronts first child, Kim, was born in nineteen eighty

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and their son Michael, in nineteen eighty three. They were

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a happy family who enjoyed sports and nature together. Bob

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had always planned on going to medical school and began

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applying to programs sometime in the late nineteen eighties, but

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then life took an unexpected turn when Diane began exhibiting

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signs of BiPOL disorder. This made marriage and parenting difficult.

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In August nineteen eighty eight, they filed for divorce after

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seventeen years of marriage. While Bob cited Diane's mental health

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as the problem in their marriage, she later said quote

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he wanted me barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen. Diane

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wanted the world to know that Bob was controlling and

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had a temper. Their divorce to create was very detailed.

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When Diane moved out of their marital home, she was

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allowed to take one hundred and thirty two items with her.

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So it was really funny. It's like super super detailed.

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I'll post a picture of it. So she was allowed

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to take their china service for twelve two Christmas cacti,

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four tissue box holders, and six green place mats, among

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among other things.

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Really strange.

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They were too split custody of the children, but soon

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after the divorce Diane dropped out of their lives. Bob's father,

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John moved in to help raise the children. Bob, by

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all accounts, was an ideal father. He coached sports team

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and was at all the important school events. The headmaster

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of Michael's school said that Bob was quote the most

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exemplary father any boy ever had. Though he was busy

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as a researcher. He never missed a game. He was

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always there for every event. People loved him, but not everyone.

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In nineteen ninety three, encouraged by his boss, Bob made

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time to get his PhD in behavioral neuroscience. He completed

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his dissertation, Mitochondrial energy impairment as a model for Huntington's disease.

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It was a good one. In nineteen ninety six, upon

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receiving his PhD, he said, quote, I am forever indebted

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to my family, especially my father, James Vincent Ferrante, for

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their unflagging support, encouragement, and assistance during these past years.

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Their pride is a source of great satisfaction to me.

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The PhD earned Bob the validation and respect he'd been

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seeking from his colleagues. He became a frequent guest, lecturer,

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and speaker. He earned countless grants and accolades for his

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work on Huntington's disease, als, Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer's, and other

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neurodegenerative diseases. He was the lead researcher on a study

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using creatine therapy for Huntington's disease.

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00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:13.319
So he was also very accomplished and impressive.

402
00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:17.160
He really was. He was doing very important research. He

403
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did strike me as kind of an odd guy. A

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lot of the people that worked in the lab with

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him kind of implied that he was difficult to work with.

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We'll be back after a break. When Autumn Klein first

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walked into Bob Ferrante's lab in the fall of nineteen

408
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ninety five, she was sporting a rebellious pink streak in

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her blonde hair and wore ripped jeans. Bob was dubious

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that she had what it took to be the reliable

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and discriminating lab assistant he saw. Bob was a difficult

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and demanding boss who liked things done his way. A

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00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:56.640
former employee called Bob unpleasant and said he had frequent

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personality conflicts with people in the lab. Quickly won him

415
00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:04.680
over with her wit, intelligence, and diligence. Despite the twenty

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00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:08.640
three year age difference, they became close friends. Bob, divorced

417
00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:11.400
at the time, with two teenagers at home, didn't have

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time to date. In nineteen ninety eight, Autumn finished her dissertation.

419
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:17.480
This is another one that you've probably read. Of course,

420
00:22:17.799 --> 00:22:22.440
beta amyloid injections caused cortical injury and oxidative damage in

421
00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:27.160
the mouse cerebral cortex. Wow, what a coincidence, right? Yes,

422
00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:30.519
She and Bob didn't become romantically involved until she was

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00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:33.519
almost done with her dissertation. Autumn was mature for her

424
00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:36.160
age and Bob was young for his age, so it

425
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:39.400
worked for them. They were active together, biking, hiking, and

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00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:42.519
traveling together to France. Bob was a gourmet chef and

427
00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:46.200
loved crafting complicated meals for them. After they got engaged

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in the year two thousand, Autumn moved in with Bob,

429
00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:51.240
his father and children, but she had her own bedroom.

430
00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:54.000
Lois Client said, quote, who am I to tell her

431
00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:56.720
who to love? I accept people for what they present

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00:22:56.759 --> 00:22:59.720
to me, and he presented to me. Okay. They were

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marriedrried in an intimate candle at ceremony on May eighteenth,

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two thousand and one, at the Old North Church in

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Boston among fifty friends and family. Audam's cousin Sharon was

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00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:11.920
made of honor and Bob's son Michael was the best man.

437
00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:15.000
They had a quick honeymoon in Kenny Bunkport, Maine, before

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returning to Boston for Audum's graduation from her mdphd program.

439
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The next few years wore a whirlwind, with Autumn's internship

440
00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:26.839
at Brown University, then a neurology residency at Harvard Medical School,

441
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Brigham and Woman's and Massachusetts General, where she was chief Resident.

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00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:34.240
Autumn worked a grueling eighty to one hundred hours a week.

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In the spring of two thousand and six, while in Switzerland,

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Autumn learned that she was pregnant. Bob had reservations about

445
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becoming a father again at an older age, but he

446
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:47.440
warms the idea. Siana Sophia Marie Ferrante was born in

447
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January two thousand and seven. Autumn was thirty five and

448
00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:53.920
Bob fifty eight. How do you think he felt being

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a father again at fifty eight.

450
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I mean, who knows how he felt it. It does

451
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feel to me that would feel really old to have kids,

452
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Like just knowing that.

453
00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:05.839
Yeah, being done with that part of your life, yeah.

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And just knowing that by the time they are getting

455
00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:10.119
done with high school and going into college, you are

456
00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:12.920
going to be like really old if you're still around

457
00:24:12.920 --> 00:24:14.880
at all. So it would just be a weird feeling.

458
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I think Autumn loved being a mother, but she was

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00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:20.519
not willing to sacrifice her career. The following years were

460
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:23.119
hard on Autumn and Bob. They adored their new daughter,

461
00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:25.839
but they were both driven and dedicated to their careers.

462
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Autumn and Bob are both doing very important research. They

463
00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:32.079
struggled to find a groove in their parenting styles. Bob's

464
00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:35.079
schedule was more flexible, so he picked Sianna up from

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daycare and started dinner. But he'd start calling Autumn soon

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00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:42.200
after he returned home, and he badgered her about leaving work.

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He would call her and she would She'd be like, Oh,

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I'm on my way, I'm coming home soon. And then

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00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:50.079
he would call her two minutes later and she would say.

470
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He would say, where are you, and she'd say, I'm

471
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two minutes further than the last time you called me.

472
00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:56.240
He would have had to have known that her schedule

473
00:24:56.440 --> 00:24:58.559
was really demanding.

474
00:24:58.039 --> 00:25:01.799
And well in the Boston traffic, well, yeah that too. Yeah,

475
00:25:01.880 --> 00:25:05.599
her schedule was demanding. She was juggling research and treating patients,

476
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:08.519
and her weekends were devoted to caring for Siana. The

477
00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:11.279
commute from the hospital to their home in nearby Canton

478
00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:15.279
was harrowing some days in the notorious Boston traffic, taking

479
00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:17.200
more than an hour. I think some days it took

480
00:25:17.480 --> 00:25:21.359
her commute took her three hours both ways. From the outside,

481
00:25:21.400 --> 00:25:23.559
the couple seemed to have it all, but there were

482
00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:27.680
signs of trouble. Bob stopped accompanying Autumn to her family events.

483
00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:30.920
He didn't attend Sharon's wedding and stopped visiting her parents,

484
00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:33.640
and when the clients came to visit, Bob couldn't be

485
00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:36.960
bothered with them. On Siana's first birthday, Autumn wanted to

486
00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:40.119
try for another baby, but Bob resisted. He hated the

487
00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:43.599
people often thought that he was Siana's grandfather. Because Autumn

488
00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:46.640
had been an only child of older parents. She desperately

489
00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:49.799
wanted to give Siana a sibling clothes in age. Because

490
00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:53.680
of their age difference, adoption would be challenging. Bob finally

491
00:25:53.720 --> 00:25:56.400
agreed in twenty ten to try for another baby, but

492
00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:58.640
he made it clear to his wife that if she

493
00:25:58.680 --> 00:26:02.880
were to become pregnant, would be her responsibility. Wow After

494
00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:05.880
a year of no baby, they started IVF, which Autumn

495
00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:09.599
paid for. She underwent four cycles of IVF and didn't

496
00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:10.279
get pregnant.

497
00:26:10.759 --> 00:26:14.240
In twenty eleven, Autumn and Bob decided to move to Pittsburgh.

498
00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:17.599
The University of Pittsburgh Medical Center wanted Autumn to start

499
00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:22.119
a woman's neurology program. Bob moved his lab nine research grants,

500
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:25.119
along with his three mice colonies, to the university to

501
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:28.920
continue his Huntington's disease research. His lab was valued at

502
00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:32.160
three million dollars. They were thrilled to buy a beautiful

503
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:34.599
home for five hundred and ninety thousand dollars in a

504
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:38.559
historic district of Pittsburgh within walking distance of the university

505
00:26:38.599 --> 00:26:42.079
and downtown. Being outside of Boston was more relaxed and

506
00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:44.440
they were able to live with more balance between their

507
00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:47.319
careers and their home life. They loved living in the

508
00:26:47.319 --> 00:26:50.599
city and being able to walk to parks, libraries, and museums.

509
00:26:50.920 --> 00:26:53.640
It was much more affordable, and Autumn received a nice

510
00:26:53.680 --> 00:26:54.599
bump in salary.

511
00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:57.839
I or that she received three times her salary.

512
00:26:58.319 --> 00:26:59.440
I would call it a nice bump.

513
00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:02.920
Yeah. The change in their lifestyle must have been amazing too.

514
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:05.519
Oh yeah, I got like at least two hours a

515
00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:06.039
day back.

516
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:08.960
Yeah. On the cost of living in Pittsburgh is way

517
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:11.839
lower than Boston too, so it was much better for

518
00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:15.519
Siana too. Autumn wrote in an email to a friend, quote,

519
00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:18.720
I like the easier lifestyle here a bit different in

520
00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:21.640
that every person is not some big shot somebody or other.

521
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:24.079
But I kind of like that. I was getting tired

522
00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:27.240
of the overprivileged. I feel like I deal with real people,

523
00:27:27.319 --> 00:27:30.839
real issues here. Life in Pittsburgh was the fresh start

524
00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:34.079
that the couple needed, but soon Autumn became depressed about

525
00:27:34.119 --> 00:27:36.440
not being able to get pregnant and the lack of

526
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:39.440
support from her husband in her job and with Siana.

527
00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:43.119
In a personal journal entry in July twenty twelve, Autumn

528
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:46.079
wrote quote, I am here writing now because I am

529
00:27:46.119 --> 00:27:48.720
not sure who I can talk to about things. I

530
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:52.119
just found out today my third IVF cycle failed, this

531
00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:55.240
time not even fertilization. I am not sure where to

532
00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:58.720
go from here. I just know that I am incredibly unhappy.

533
00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:01.640
Yet I am not sure why I have wanted another

534
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:04.920
child for years. But is what I want another child?

535
00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:08.200
Or what that represents to me? Why do people have children?

536
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:11.640
Are they a representation of self? Do they represent more

537
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:15.000
love in life? More pleasure? Do I want another child

538
00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:17.680
because these things are lacking in my life? It is

539
00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:19.880
not clear to me. I just feel like something is

540
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:22.599
missing in my life. I think that thing missing is

541
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:24.759
love Oh, it's really sad to read that.

542
00:28:24.920 --> 00:28:28.119
It is really sad. That's some pretty heavy stuff to

543
00:28:28.119 --> 00:28:29.039
write in your journal.

544
00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:31.640
Yeah, for sure, it sounds like she was really struggling

545
00:28:31.640 --> 00:28:33.839
with I mean some of the big questions in life.

546
00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:35.720
You know, why am I here? Why do you have kids?

547
00:28:36.519 --> 00:28:36.640
Well?

548
00:28:36.759 --> 00:28:38.160
Yeah, those are deep questions.

549
00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:42.880
Yeah. By twenty thirteen, the marriage seemed irretrievably broken. Autumn

550
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:45.839
confided in friends that she was making plans to leave Bob.

551
00:28:46.200 --> 00:28:49.240
She was frustrated by Bob's lack of emotion and empathy

552
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:53.519
regarding her fourth failed IVF procedure. Autumn emailed Bob the

553
00:28:53.559 --> 00:28:57.000
following shortly before her death, quote, I think at some

554
00:28:57.160 --> 00:28:59.519
point in the near future we should go out and talk.

555
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:01.920
I really don't know where to begin with all that

556
00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:04.799
has been going on in life recently and in my head.

557
00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:07.200
I have tried to talk to you, but can't. I

558
00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:09.720
have written you many letters I have not sent. I

559
00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:11.839
don't know where things are going to go, and you

560
00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:14.079
may not like what you hear, but I think it

561
00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:17.119
is about time we talked. After he'd read the email,

562
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:23.440
Bob googled divorce Pittsburgh, PA, and does increased vaginal size

563
00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:27.920
suggest wife is having sex with another and how would

564
00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:31.720
a coroner detect cyanide in an autopsy? Oh, my goodness,

565
00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:34.480
that is quite a combination of things to google.

566
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:35.359
Mm hm.

567
00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:39.039
An older search from January twenty thirteen asked, what is

568
00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:41.000
malice of forethought.

569
00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:43.920
Those I'm sure we're just educational searches.

570
00:29:43.640 --> 00:29:47.400
Just probably watching CSI or something like that exactly. Autumn's

571
00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:51.160
doctor told her that her eggs had mitochondrial damage. Bob

572
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:54.720
suggested that creatine could possibly help improve the quality of

573
00:29:54.759 --> 00:29:57.720
Autumn's eggs, as creatine provides energy.

574
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:01.559
So they're having a lot of marital difficult but Autumn

575
00:30:01.720 --> 00:30:03.480
still really wants another.

576
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:07.759
Child, Okay. Autumn agreed toad creatine to her diet. In fact,

577
00:30:07.759 --> 00:30:10.279
the day she collapsed in her kitchen, she had texted

578
00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:13.319
Bob that morning that she'd be ovulating the next day,

579
00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:15.759
and he reminded her to take the creatine.

580
00:30:16.119 --> 00:30:18.880
So, if you remember at the very beginning of the episode,

581
00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:21.960
he handed her a drink when she got home, right,

582
00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:25.559
and that was her creatine drink. When Autumn was hospitalized,

583
00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:29.359
barely clinging to life, Bob called his two adult children, Michael,

584
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:33.039
an investment manager, and Kimberly, a doctor for support and

585
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:36.079
asked them to come to Pittsburgh. He also called Autumn's

586
00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:39.319
elderly parents, Lois and Bill. They rushed to Pittsburgh from

587
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:42.119
their home in Towson, Maryland, to see their daughter, but

588
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:44.599
when they arrived, Bob told them they needed to wait

589
00:30:44.680 --> 00:30:47.000
until Kim and Michael arrived later that evening to go

590
00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:50.480
to the hospital. Bob knew at that point that Autumn's

591
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:53.680
prognosis was very grim. Later that evening, when Lois and

592
00:30:53.720 --> 00:30:56.920
Bill sat at Autumn's bedside holding her hand, Lois knew

593
00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:00.359
their daughter wasn't coming back to her. Sharon, Audam's and

594
00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:02.680
best friend, called and talked to her as Lois held

595
00:31:02.680 --> 00:31:05.480
the phone up to her ear, quote, I need you,

596
00:31:05.559 --> 00:31:09.039
Cianna needs you, Sharon pleaded with Autumn. Bob had told

597
00:31:09.079 --> 00:31:11.319
Sianna that Autumn had gone on a work trip, but

598
00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:13.680
now he finally told her that mommy was sick in

599
00:31:13.720 --> 00:31:16.640
the hospital, and Siana got to spend several hours with her.

600
00:31:16.759 --> 00:31:17.920
How old was at the s.

601
00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:22.000
As a neurologist herself. Autumn had left a directive that

602
00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:24.319
she didn't want to be on life support longer than

603
00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:27.200
a week if there was little to no chance of recovery.

604
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:30.559
On April twentieth, at twelve thirty one pm, three days

605
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:33.680
after she first collapsed in her kitchen, Autumn was declared

606
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:37.039
brain dead and removed from life support. When asked about

607
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:40.279
an autopsy, Bob was encouraged that it should be done

608
00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:44.160
if for no other reason to determine whether Autumn's condition

609
00:31:44.359 --> 00:31:46.759
was the result of a genetic condition, what if it

610
00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:49.079
was something that could be passed on to their daughter.

611
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:53.519
But Bob was adamant, no autopsy, not even a less

612
00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:57.559
invasive autopsy that consists only of an external examination and

613
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:01.039
talk screening. Quote what would or not autopsy tell us?

614
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:05.039
But it wasn't Bob's decision to make. In Pennsylvania, the

615
00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:08.960
law mandates that an autopsy must be performed when there

616
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:12.480
is not a clear cause of death. I like that law.

617
00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:13.599
Yeah, for sure.

618
00:32:13.799 --> 00:32:16.359
We've had this happen in several cases where you know,

619
00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:20.200
the body is cremated before there can be an autopsy,

620
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:23.599
So that's a good law. Autumn had expressed a strong

621
00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:26.519
desire to be an organ donor. After her lover and

622
00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:30.039
kidneys were harvested for donation, her body was transported to

623
00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:33.880
the Medical Examiner's office at the time Autumn's organs were harvested,

624
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:37.720
it wasn't known that she died of cyanide poisoning. Organs

625
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:40.519
can recover from poisoning as long as they weren't damaged

626
00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:45.799
from prolonged oxygen loss. In most cases, cyanide dissipates quickly

627
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:47.680
and the organs are still usable.

628
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:49.960
Now, I was going to ask you, I think you

629
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:52.680
mentioned earlier that they tested her blood for cyanide when

630
00:32:52.680 --> 00:32:55.079
she like shortly after she came into the hospital, that

631
00:32:55.160 --> 00:32:57.440
they didn't have the results back of that test.

632
00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:00.160
No, they didn't, and if you remember, they some that

633
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:02.839
blood off to a different state. I don't think there's

634
00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:06.400
a ton of labs that actually test for cyanide. So yeah,

635
00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:10.119
they hadn't received the results back yet. Organ transplants must

636
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:13.160
occur very quickly after death, and the organ is kept

637
00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:16.839
at very strict guidelines. Heart and lungs must be transplanted

638
00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:19.640
within four to six hours, the liver within eight to

639
00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:22.759
twelve hours, and the kidney has a more lenient time

640
00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:25.480
of twenty four to thirty six hours. As the window

641
00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:28.559
of time closes, it becomes more likely that the organ

642
00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:31.920
will fail. You've seen this on TV all the time, right, Oh.

643
00:33:31.880 --> 00:33:34.839
Yeah, people rushing the organ over to ye.

644
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:36.519
But I didn't know the windows read that.

645
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:38.000
No, I didn't either.

646
00:33:38.440 --> 00:33:41.799
On Sunday, April twenty first, twenty thirteen, Autumn's body was

647
00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:47.000
autopsied by doctor Todd Lukasevic, a forensic pathologist. He opted

648
00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:50.160
for a full autopsy as opposed to the less invasive

649
00:33:50.279 --> 00:33:53.839
external exam. He found nothing abnormal other than a benign

650
00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:56.799
tumor in her uterus, which makes me wonder if that

651
00:33:56.880 --> 00:33:59.480
wasn't that was why she couldn't get pread. Yeah, Autumn's

652
00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:01.519
liver and kid had been donated, but the rest of

653
00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:05.240
her internal organs appeared to be healthy. Doctor Lukasevic sent

654
00:34:05.319 --> 00:34:09.280
Autumn's brain and heart to specialized pathologists for further testing.

655
00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:11.760
Her body was sent to the funeral home the next

656
00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:14.880
day to be cremated. Autumn's cause and manner of death

657
00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:18.880
were both listed as undetermined, pending examination from the other

658
00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:23.800
specialist and the toxicology report, which wasn't expected for weeks later.

659
00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:26.199
Autumn's heart and brain were found to be normal, except

660
00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:28.920
for a congenital heart defect in one of her valves

661
00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:31.679
found in about two percent of the population, but it

662
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:33.719
was determined not to be a factor in her death.

663
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:37.920
The heart defective is sometimes an issue, generally in older patients,

664
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:41.400
but Autumn exhibited no symptoms of heart disease. But remember

665
00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:43.639
when the doctor and the er test at Autumn's blood

666
00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:47.639
for cyanide. The test result was returned two days after

667
00:34:47.719 --> 00:34:51.079
the autopsy. The amount of cyanide in her blood was

668
00:34:51.159 --> 00:34:55.039
three point four milligrams per leader, a deadly amount several

669
00:34:55.079 --> 00:34:59.079
times over. A deadly amount is anything over one milligram.

670
00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:02.079
Autumn's the cause of death was changed to homicide and

671
00:35:02.119 --> 00:35:05.800
the manner was cyanide poisoning. The funeral home was called

672
00:35:05.800 --> 00:35:08.840
to retrieve Autom's body for additional testing, but it was

673
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:11.559
too late. Her body had been cremated the day before,

674
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:15.400
but doctor lucas Sevic did save many vials of blood

675
00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:18.840
and tissue samples. Now that Autom's manner and cause of

676
00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:21.800
death were determined, the police needed to confirm the results

677
00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:24.719
with their crime lab. Vials of Autumn's blood were sent

678
00:35:24.760 --> 00:35:27.599
to the police lab for additional testing. We're going to

679
00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:30.840
talk about this later on. What was Autumn's cause of

680
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:35.960
death really cyanide poisoning? That question, unfortunately remained unclear. If

681
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:39.119
cyanide poisoning was her cause of death. Some medical experts

682
00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:42.719
questioned why she didn't die instantly, especially with that amount,

683
00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:45.639
because that was a huge amount, right, Could there be

684
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:47.159
an underlying health issue?

685
00:35:47.239 --> 00:35:49.880
It just seems like with that amount of cyanide, why

686
00:35:50.199 --> 00:35:52.280
how would it not have been the cause of her death.

687
00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:55.360
Just seems like there was so much cyanide.

688
00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:58.320
Right, And I think because she had medical intervention pretty

689
00:35:58.360 --> 00:36:01.679
quickly and she was put on like the Ekmoon machine,

690
00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:06.199
that is probably what extended her life. Entered detective Jim McGee,

691
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:10.239
a twenty six year police veteran, and his partner Robert Provident,

692
00:36:10.519 --> 00:36:13.840
a twenty five year police veteran. Their first task was

693
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:17.920
to determine how Autumn had gotten the cyanide in her system, intentionally,

694
00:36:17.960 --> 00:36:23.239
self administered, accidentally, or intentionally poisoned. Autumn did not work

695
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:27.079
with cyanide in her practice or research. McGee and Providence's

696
00:36:27.079 --> 00:36:29.280
first order of business was to pay a visit to

697
00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:32.719
Bob Ferrante at home. He covered his mouth and shock

698
00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:36.079
when told that his wife died from cyanide poisoning. First,

699
00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:39.119
he said, why would she do this to herself? Then?

700
00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:42.440
Who would do this to her? The detectives requested that

701
00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:46.079
Bob hand over any medications or fertility drugs Autumn was taking,

702
00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:49.440
including the creatine he gave to her daily. They also

703
00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:52.559
took two hair brushes and three small vials filled with

704
00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:56.920
an unknown substance. Audam's mother, Lois Klein, was confused how

705
00:36:56.960 --> 00:36:59.960
Autumn had come into contact with the cyanide and Lawnforce

706
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:02.920
was not sharing the findings from their investigation with her.

707
00:37:03.239 --> 00:37:06.519
She told the Pittsburgh Post Gazette quote, I certainly am

708
00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:09.239
working under the assumption that she would not do that

709
00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:13.480
to herself. I am totally dumbfounded. I can't imagine anyone

710
00:37:13.480 --> 00:37:15.880
would want to hurt her. Could someone have given it

711
00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:18.760
to her without her knowledge? Could she have taken it

712
00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:21.280
on purpose? Could she have run across it in her

713
00:37:21.320 --> 00:37:24.159
own research. I have no knowledge, but I have great

714
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:27.000
doubts that anything like that would have been used in

715
00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:30.760
her own research. The investigators on the case had to

716
00:37:30.840 --> 00:37:33.280
rush because they were afraid Bob would leave the country.

717
00:37:33.559 --> 00:37:36.199
They called in the FBI to help. They wrote over

718
00:37:36.280 --> 00:37:39.639
one hundred search warrants, and ten detectives headed to Bob

719
00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:43.559
Harante's house. When he didn't answer, they removed a window

720
00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:46.639
air conditioner to gain access to the house. One of

721
00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:49.079
the detectives crawled through the window and opened the door

722
00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:51.840
for the others. The search warrant allowed them to take

723
00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:55.599
a plethora of items, including cleaning supplies or anything in

724
00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:58.760
the kitchen that might contain cyanide. They left with five

725
00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:01.840
boxes of evidence, include the contents of a paper shudder,

726
00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:07.039
a vacuum, and both Autumn and Bob's cars. Thirty five devices,

727
00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:11.440
including phones, computers, hard drives, and thumb drives, were seized

728
00:38:11.440 --> 00:38:13.280
and later analyzed by law enforcement.

729
00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:16.159
Thirty five devices. It's a lot of devices. You think

730
00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:17.760
we have that many devices in our house?

731
00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:19.920
I think I have that many devices in our house.

732
00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:21.480
You know how many old ife haads?

733
00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:22.719
We have a lot.

734
00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:26.079
Whenever I go into like the Bluetooth, it's just like, yeah,

735
00:38:27.159 --> 00:38:29.559
you have more than you think. In late May the

736
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:33.360
couple's financial records for subpoena. The records revealed that Autumn

737
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:36.199
and Bob had a prenuptial agreement. They kept a lot

738
00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:39.079
of their money separate, and Autumn paid for the expensive

739
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:42.119
fertility treatments. A lot of Bob's money went to his

740
00:38:42.159 --> 00:38:45.519
adult children, despite both of them having well paying jobs,

741
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:48.039
which had been a point of contention in their marriage.

742
00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:51.800
Bob's personal accounts held over two million dollars, so if

743
00:38:51.800 --> 00:38:55.480
he had killed Autumn, it likely wasn't for financial reasons,

744
00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:59.400
although Autumn had three life insurance policies totally one hundred

745
00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:02.840
and fifty thousand dollars. During the search, Bob came home.

746
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:05.800
He was nice enough to the officers but called his attorney,

747
00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:08.599
who rushed over to the house. They didn't find anything

748
00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:11.400
much of interest, but a safe in the basement contained

749
00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:14.679
about thirty five thousand dollars in cash. Do we have

750
00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:15.239
a safe in.

751
00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:18.800
The I'd rather not talk about that, but a.

752
00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:20.599
Lot of times this happens for people I have like

753
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:23.920
ten thousand dollars plus in their house. Yeah, I probably

754
00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:25.320
have forty three cents in my person.

755
00:39:26.039 --> 00:39:27.119
That's probably what I have too.

756
00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:29.840
They spent about two hours in the house. The next day,

757
00:39:29.880 --> 00:39:33.079
Autumn and Bob's offices were both searched, and Bob's office

758
00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:36.360
detectives found a receipt for a two hundred and fifty

759
00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:41.000
grand bottle of potassium cyanide sent overnight on April fifteenth,

760
00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:43.800
twenty thirteen. It was sent to a lab assistant, and

761
00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:46.519
it cost one hundred and sixty three dollars and ninety

762
00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:47.079
four cents.

763
00:39:47.119 --> 00:39:48.440
Oh, that doesn't sound good.

764
00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:51.400
The bottle steel was broken and found to have Bob's

765
00:39:51.400 --> 00:39:55.840
thumb print. Computers receized a few glass vials, creatine, and

766
00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:59.719
another safe. Detectives thought they had enough to make an arrest,

767
00:39:59.719 --> 00:40:02.440
but the DA wanted them to gather more evidence and

768
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:06.119
rule out suicide or a possible accident, and what was

769
00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:09.719
the motive That was still unclear. The say found in

770
00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:13.880
Bob's office was forgotten for months. When it was finally opened,

771
00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:17.679
three pair of diamond earrings were inside, along with baby teeth,

772
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:21.920
a wooden alligator, an abundance of coins, and a MacBook Pro,

773
00:40:22.360 --> 00:40:26.159
which prosecutors called the gift that keeps on giving.

774
00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:28.639
Yeah, if you find a MacBook Pro inside a safe,

775
00:40:28.679 --> 00:40:30.559
there's probably gonna be some good stuff on there.

776
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:33.039
I just want to talk about baby teeth for a second.

777
00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:36.760
For years, I hung on to baby teeth, and eventually

778
00:40:36.760 --> 00:40:41.199
I was like, you know, anyways, we're going to want

779
00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:45.199
these baby teeth. Oh right through the way. Do you

780
00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:46.679
think your kids are ever going to come to his head?

781
00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:48.840
What did you do with our babye?

782
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:51.679
You have my baby teeth? You didn't love me. Among

783
00:40:51.719 --> 00:40:55.159
the Google searches found on the MacBook were human toxicity

784
00:40:55.360 --> 00:41:02.320
three nitro propionic acid and toxic dose human three nitropropionic

785
00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:09.239
acid cardiomyopathy, and detecting cyanide poisoning. Those aren't incriminating at all.

786
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:10.079
No, not at all.

787
00:41:10.599 --> 00:41:11.960
We'll be back after a break.

788
00:41:20.440 --> 00:41:23.880
Weeks after the search on Ottoman Bob's house, Detective Jacqueline

789
00:41:23.920 --> 00:41:26.519
Weibel remembered the box of shredded paper.

790
00:41:27.079 --> 00:41:29.760
Remember that during the search of the Ferrante home that

791
00:41:29.800 --> 00:41:32.199
they had found a paper shredder. So this is the

792
00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:33.639
contents from the paper shredder.

793
00:41:33.679 --> 00:41:36.920
Gotcha. She put her inturns to good use, gave them

794
00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:40.480
the box, and wished them luck. Their tenacity paid off

795
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:43.119
hours later when they were able to piece together a letter.

796
00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:48.440
It said, my dearest Diane, Kimberly, Michael and Siana. Words

797
00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:51.159
cannot express my deep and undying love for each and

798
00:41:51.239 --> 00:41:53.920
every one of you, for oh so many reasons. You

799
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:56.639
have all been my rock for many years, my reason

800
00:41:56.679 --> 00:41:59.280
for living. The memories I have had with each of

801
00:41:59.320 --> 00:42:02.360
you as a family together would carry multiple lifetimes for

802
00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:05.480
any person. I have been very fortunate in having each

803
00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:07.800
of you in my life. I want you to remember

804
00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:10.000
those times and keep them close to your heart and

805
00:42:10.039 --> 00:42:13.760
in your mind, not the horrific and inexplicable events that

806
00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:17.159
have happened over the past three weeks. This experience has

807
00:42:17.199 --> 00:42:19.880
taken an incredible toll on me, one that I can

808
00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:23.559
no longer burden. While I remain steadfastly adamant that I

809
00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:26.360
did not take Autumn's life, I no longer have the

810
00:42:26.360 --> 00:42:29.480
strength to carry the weight of losing her, someone who

811
00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:33.599
shared all the pleasantries and meaningful events, especially with Siana,

812
00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:36.280
with the added suspicion that I would be the cause.

813
00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:39.400
It has been too great a weight for me to carry.

814
00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:42.719
I feel like a pariah in my community, even though

815
00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:45.280
there are some very special people around me that have

816
00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:48.039
my greatest interest at heart. Kim and Mike, I have

817
00:42:48.199 --> 00:42:50.639
that strength for you, but these are a very different

818
00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:54.880
set of circumstances. Please forgive my weakness. Please all of

819
00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:57.480
you care for Siana. I will miss many of the

820
00:42:57.519 --> 00:43:00.280
important events of her life. Let her know how deeply

821
00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:02.199
I love her and how important it is for her

822
00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:04.639
to belong to this family, and that I will be

823
00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:07.320
with her in spirit so that she may succeed in

824
00:43:07.400 --> 00:43:10.480
whatever her endeavors are. Despite the loss of both her

825
00:43:10.519 --> 00:43:13.480
mom and dad. Be consistent in your love for her

826
00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:17.559
and how you interact with her. That will bring her comfort. Lastly,

827
00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:20.400
I will miss each and every one of you, Diane,

828
00:43:20.559 --> 00:43:23.719
you and I growing old together and laughing at our experiences,

829
00:43:24.199 --> 00:43:27.519
Kim and Mike, your success in life and your future families.

830
00:43:28.159 --> 00:43:30.760
Just being together with all of you and celebrating life.

831
00:43:31.280 --> 00:43:33.960
Please keep working hard as well as not forgetting to

832
00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:38.000
enjoy the successes, even the small ones. Sometimes we forget

833
00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:41.039
to celebrate the simple things. Bless each of you for

834
00:43:41.119 --> 00:43:43.519
being in my life. I am so sorry for not

835
00:43:43.559 --> 00:43:49.599
physically remaining in your lives. I am with Autumn, Love, Dad, Robbie.

836
00:43:49.639 --> 00:43:52.639
The interns spent the next three weeks puzzling together ten

837
00:43:52.719 --> 00:43:55.760
more letters written by Bob. There were letters to Bob's

838
00:43:55.800 --> 00:43:59.360
three children and to his sister. The prosecutor would argue

839
00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:01.400
that this show consciousness of guilt.

840
00:44:01.840 --> 00:44:04.559
Would you agree, I.

841
00:44:04.519 --> 00:44:07.719
Mean kind of, but not necessarily. I mean, you could

842
00:44:07.719 --> 00:44:10.519
be distraught over losing your spouse, and.

843
00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:13.360
I just can't imagine leaving your six year old daughter

844
00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:14.159
with no parents.

845
00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:15.880
No, I can't either, but I'm just saying I don't.

846
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:18.000
I don't know if I agree it shows consciousness of

847
00:44:18.039 --> 00:44:18.440
guilt or.

848
00:44:18.519 --> 00:44:20.559
Up and I don't think there was a clear directive

849
00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:24.760
of who would gain custody of Siana. She was only six.

850
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:28.360
Yeah. On May tenth, a memorial was held for Autumn,

851
00:44:28.440 --> 00:44:32.000
arranged by her parents. Her close friend Ellen Bubrick gave

852
00:44:32.039 --> 00:44:35.159
a eulogy. She said, quote, she was all the things

853
00:44:35.199 --> 00:44:42.000
I wanted to be. Poised, articulate, successful, resolute, brilliant, beautiful, compassionate, loyal,

854
00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:45.079
funny and kind. She was the best friend you could

855
00:44:45.079 --> 00:44:47.519
ask for, the kind of friend you could tell the

856
00:44:47.559 --> 00:44:50.360
most personal things, things you are afraid of, things you

857
00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:53.440
are ashamed of, things that make us human. And you

858
00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:55.400
could tell her knowing that she would treat you with

859
00:44:55.480 --> 00:44:58.480
loving kindness and that she wanted to love and support you.

860
00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:00.840
It's not just in her word that she left this

861
00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:03.280
earth a better place, though, it is in all of

862
00:45:03.320 --> 00:45:06.039
the lives that she touched. She lives on in her

863
00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:09.159
beautiful daughter Sianna, in her family, in all of us.

864
00:45:09.639 --> 00:45:12.599
To Bob, she loved you dearly and cherished the family

865
00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:15.639
you built together. Only Bob wasn't there to hear the

866
00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:19.440
touching eulogy. His attorney had suggested he skipped the memorial,

867
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:22.400
he and Sianna stayed home. Why do you think his

868
00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:25.239
attorney would suggest that if I was an attorney, I

869
00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:27.400
think that would be a really bad look to skip

870
00:45:27.599 --> 00:45:28.880
the funeral of your spouse.

871
00:45:28.920 --> 00:45:32.639
I don't understand that either. And for Siana not to

872
00:45:32.679 --> 00:45:36.239
have said goodbye to her mother is also really sad. Yeah.

873
00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:40.159
Two detectives attended the service and surreptitiously talked to Autumn's

874
00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:43.840
friends and family. Ellen shared with the investigators that Autumn

875
00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:46.760
would never take her own life. She loved her life

876
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:49.639
and her daughter. She took good care of herself because

877
00:45:49.639 --> 00:45:52.119
her husband was older, and she'd lived with the real

878
00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:54.960
fear that Bob would die, and she didn't want Siana

879
00:45:55.000 --> 00:45:58.400
to be left without a parent. Doctor Thomas McElrath, a

880
00:45:58.480 --> 00:46:01.800
close friend of Autumn's, told investigators that while at a

881
00:46:01.800 --> 00:46:05.639
conference in San Francisco in February twenty thirteen, she told

882
00:46:05.719 --> 00:46:09.239
him that Bob was unsupportive, controlling, and jealous, and she

883
00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:12.320
was thinking about leaving him. Her best friend and cousin,

884
00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:15.559
Sharon corroborated this was that why she had stopped the

885
00:46:15.639 --> 00:46:19.599
fertility treatments. Had she changed her mind about wanting another child.

886
00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:23.400
She had given her fertility medications to a friend in January.

887
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:27.320
Bob was giving her the creatine supplement, and I wonder

888
00:46:27.320 --> 00:46:29.880
if she was taking that and not the fertility drugs,

889
00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:33.559
just because she was like trying to plan something and

890
00:46:33.639 --> 00:46:36.159
she didn't want to give it away because if she

891
00:46:36.519 --> 00:46:40.159
stopped taking the fertility treatments and the creatine, you know,

892
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:42.719
it would just show that she was ready to leave, right, she.

893
00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:45.880
Wasn't submitted any longer. Yeah, that makes sense. News of

894
00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:49.000
a possible cyanide poisoning was too salacious not to be

895
00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:51.880
leaked to the media. Once they got ahold of the story,

896
00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:55.599
the media became fixtures outside of Bob's house. He didn't

897
00:46:55.639 --> 00:46:58.039
like the attention and felt like friends and neighbors were

898
00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:00.679
suspicious of him. He had been ready to retire for

899
00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:03.280
a while and was rattled by the cold stairs of

900
00:47:03.320 --> 00:47:06.719
the people in Pittsburgh. He pulled Siana out of kindergarten

901
00:47:06.760 --> 00:47:09.719
early and went to California to stay with his daughter, Kim.

902
00:47:10.440 --> 00:47:12.360
He was there for a month and then decided to

903
00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:15.480
move to Florida and live with his sister, Diane. Bob

904
00:47:15.559 --> 00:47:18.239
even found a school for Siana. He knew it was

905
00:47:18.360 --> 00:47:20.719
likely he would be arrested and wanted her to stay

906
00:47:20.719 --> 00:47:22.000
in Florida with her aunt.

907
00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:25.679
On July twenty fifth, twenty thirteen, three months after Autumn's death,

908
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:29.239
detectives traveled to Saint Augustine, Florida, with Lois and Bill

909
00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:32.639
Klein in tow to arrest Bob. The clients were going

910
00:47:32.679 --> 00:47:35.679
to take Siana to Baltimore to live with them, but

911
00:47:35.760 --> 00:47:39.280
the arrest didn't go as planned. Fifteen law enforcement officers

912
00:47:39.320 --> 00:47:43.760
from different agencies descended upon Diane Ferrante's house, only to

913
00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:46.440
learn that Bob had been tipped off and wasn't there.

914
00:47:46.840 --> 00:47:48.880
Sianna was at the house, and she was happy to

915
00:47:48.920 --> 00:47:52.000
see her grandparents. She hadn't seen them since Autumn's death

916
00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:55.000
months earlier. It's unclear if Bob was on the run,

917
00:47:55.079 --> 00:47:57.639
but the state police issued a BOLO.

918
00:47:57.800 --> 00:47:59.480
Be on the lookout for it you.

919
00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:04.199
Bill Diffenderfer Bob's attorney called him and strongly suggested he

920
00:48:04.320 --> 00:48:06.760
get back to Pittsburgh. Can you imagine that? Call the

921
00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:10.880
kit you are? But he was pulled over at about

922
00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:13.760
seven p m. In West Virginia and arrested without incident.

923
00:48:14.000 --> 00:48:17.159
He spent four nights in jail before detectives provident and

924
00:48:17.280 --> 00:48:21.320
Lutton drove him home to Pittsburgh. He did not fight extradition.

925
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:24.119
Once in front of the judge, Bob was charged with

926
00:48:24.159 --> 00:48:27.159
one count of first degree murder and denied bail. He

927
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:30.840
pleaded not guilty. The judge issued a gag order. No

928
00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:32.920
one was allowed to talk to the media regarding the

929
00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:36.360
case to preserve the sanctity of the potential jury pool.

930
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:39.519
Because Bob had over two million dollars in cash and

931
00:48:39.599 --> 00:48:43.679
investments over three million dollars if you included Autumn's assets,

932
00:48:44.119 --> 00:48:47.000
he was considered a flight risk. Most of his assets

933
00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:49.760
were frozen until the judge decided how to handle the

934
00:48:49.880 --> 00:48:53.679
estate in Siana's future. About two hundred and fifty thousand

935
00:48:53.719 --> 00:48:57.480
dollars was unfrozen for Bob's legal defense, but that money

936
00:48:57.559 --> 00:49:01.360
dried up quickly. By January. Lois and Bill Klein were

937
00:49:01.559 --> 00:49:04.920
seventy eight and seventy six, respectively, and while they were

938
00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:07.519
doting grandparents, they were too old to keep up with

939
00:49:07.559 --> 00:49:10.880
the demands of a six year old. Michael Ferrante, Bob's son,

940
00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:14.239
and his wife, Nicole, filed for custody. Their motion was

941
00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:16.760
struck down because they weren't considered to be close enough

942
00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:21.599
relatives and the Ferrantes lived in Massachusetts, not Pennsylvania, so

943
00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:27.039
Michael is actually Siana's brother, and that was kind.

944
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:28.559
Of strange, Yeah, that it's strange that they wouldn't be

945
00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:29.159
close enough.

946
00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:33.239
Meanwhile, due to the exceptionally complicated chemistry involved in the case,

947
00:49:33.400 --> 00:49:35.480
Bob was allowed to work on his case for eight

948
00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:38.519
hours a day from jail. After his arrest, he was

949
00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:43.000
put on indefinite leave from the university. Among the evidence

950
00:49:43.039 --> 00:49:46.199
against Bob Ferrante were messages between him and Autumn in

951
00:49:46.239 --> 00:49:49.599
which he constantly brought up her having an affair. There

952
00:49:49.679 --> 00:49:53.239
is no proof that she was. Investigators believed that this

953
00:49:53.559 --> 00:49:56.559
was his motive. A lab assistant told the detectives that

954
00:49:56.599 --> 00:49:59.519
on April fifteenth, twenty thirteen, Bob asked her if they

955
00:49:59.559 --> 00:50:03.480
could over potassium cyanide to the lab, the best and

956
00:50:03.639 --> 00:50:07.920
purest form available. He requested. It wasn't unheard of to

957
00:50:07.960 --> 00:50:10.920
overnight chemicals to the lab, but it only happened once

958
00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:13.360
or twice a year, and Bob had never made the

959
00:50:13.400 --> 00:50:16.719
request before. It cost one hundred and sixty three dollars

960
00:50:16.719 --> 00:50:19.199
and ninety four cents and was paid for with Bob's

961
00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:23.480
university credit card. Typically, the grant number for the chemicals

962
00:50:23.480 --> 00:50:27.360
intended use was recorded on the purchase order. However, no

963
00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:31.199
grant number was listed for the potassium cyanide. Of the

964
00:50:31.239 --> 00:50:33.920
one hundred and forty five chemicals housed in the lab,

965
00:50:34.320 --> 00:50:37.119
cyanide had never been among them, and there were no

966
00:50:37.239 --> 00:50:40.960
future projects slated at the lab that required it. The

967
00:50:40.960 --> 00:50:43.599
two hundred and fifty gram bottle at the lab was

968
00:50:43.639 --> 00:50:48.039
weighed by investigators, eight point three grams were missing, and

969
00:50:48.079 --> 00:50:51.840
Bob's fingerprints were on the bottle. Eight grams is about

970
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:55.960
two teaspoons of sugar. Also of interest to investigators was

971
00:50:55.960 --> 00:50:59.480
Bob's purchase of a compound called three n P or

972
00:50:59.639 --> 00:51:05.800
three nitropropionic acid, a naturally occurring micotoxin produced by fungi.

973
00:51:06.360 --> 00:51:08.559
It is used in the lab to promote cell death

974
00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:12.960
to replicate the conditions of diseases like als. Three NP

975
00:51:13.119 --> 00:51:16.119
is toxic to humans and animals, causing a dramatic decrease

976
00:51:16.199 --> 00:51:21.360
in neuronal degeneration and loss of mitochondrial function. In smaller doses,

977
00:51:21.440 --> 00:51:25.280
it can cause lethargy and diminished motor control. One of

978
00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:29.199
Bob's lab assistants divulged that Bob had requested three NP

979
00:51:29.679 --> 00:51:33.599
be ordered three times between March sixth and April third.

980
00:51:34.079 --> 00:51:37.079
Six weeks before Autumn's death, she had visited her doctor

981
00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:40.519
after suffering from extreme hair loss. She asked to have

982
00:51:40.599 --> 00:51:44.440
her hormone levels checked. Although Autumn had suffered from migraine

983
00:51:44.440 --> 00:51:47.480
headaches for two years, she had recently been having severe

984
00:51:47.559 --> 00:51:51.440
dizziness and fainting spells. There's not a blood test that

985
00:51:51.480 --> 00:51:54.800
can detect three MP. Investigators thought that Bob might have

986
00:51:54.840 --> 00:51:58.800
been dosing Autumn with three MP before he became impatient

987
00:51:58.960 --> 00:52:02.360
and switched to science before her death. At one pm

988
00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:05.159
the day before her death, Autumn texted Bob, I have

989
00:52:05.199 --> 00:52:08.960
an aura. According to my calendar, I ovulate tomorrow.

990
00:52:08.840 --> 00:52:13.960
Perfect timing creatine. Smiley face. Right, I'm serious. It will

991
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:15.840
make a huge difference. I'm certain of it.

992
00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:18.599
I sure hope so mild headache right now?

993
00:52:18.880 --> 00:52:20.519
Creatine will take care of that too.

994
00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:22.840
Will it stimulate egg production too?

995
00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:24.199
Smiley face.

996
00:52:25.639 --> 00:52:28.679
Among the Google searches found on Bob's laptop was a

997
00:52:28.760 --> 00:52:33.519
search would ECMO or dialysis remove trace toxins or poisons

998
00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:39.840
detecting cyanide poisoning potential cyanide neuroscience project? How will a

999
00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:43.800
coroner detect if someone is killed by cyanide, and how

1000
00:52:43.840 --> 00:52:46.800
to remove items from your Google web history.

1001
00:52:47.199 --> 00:52:50.039
Apparently he didn't find a good answer for that last one.

1002
00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:53.960
Oh those pesky Google searches. Autumn had been trying to

1003
00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:56.960
get pregnant for several years. She was consumed with wanting

1004
00:52:56.960 --> 00:53:00.320
another baby. She even volunteered her sparse free time to

1005
00:53:00.360 --> 00:53:03.719
snuggle newborn babies in the nickew from one to two am.

1006
00:53:04.119 --> 00:53:06.840
After several failed cycles of IVF, she took a few

1007
00:53:06.840 --> 00:53:10.280
months off from the fertility hormones, but recently Bob had

1008
00:53:10.280 --> 00:53:13.840
put Autumn on the creatine regimen. He sprinkled a creatine

1009
00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:15.920
on toast and put it in a drink for her.

1010
00:53:16.400 --> 00:53:20.199
He really loves his freaking creating. Creatine is safe for

1011
00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:24.400
pregnant women and may support fertility. Research suggests that creatine

1012
00:53:24.440 --> 00:53:29.480
supplementation during pregnancy offers potential benefits, such as maintaining energy

1013
00:53:29.559 --> 00:53:32.760
levels in the placenta, crucial for fetal growth and development.

1014
00:53:33.079 --> 00:53:35.679
It may also reduce the risk of birth complications by

1015
00:53:35.679 --> 00:53:40.079
protecting the fetal rain from oxygen deprivation during labor. Additionally,

1016
00:53:40.199 --> 00:53:44.239
creatine could support fetal muscle growth by supplying essential building

1017
00:53:44.239 --> 00:53:47.159
blocks for muscle tissue. But this is a relatively new

1018
00:53:47.199 --> 00:53:50.719
development and more research is needed. So when Bob began

1019
00:53:50.840 --> 00:53:54.960
giving autumn supplementary creatine, he could point to these studies

1020
00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:57.840
as proof that it may increase her chance of becoming

1021
00:53:57.920 --> 00:53:59.880
pregnant without raising her So.

1022
00:54:00.920 --> 00:54:03.519
Bob's defense filed a pre trial motion to move the

1023
00:54:03.559 --> 00:54:07.119
trial due to excessive media coverage. The judge agreed to

1024
00:54:07.119 --> 00:54:10.119
move the trial to Harrisburg, but later changed his mind

1025
00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:14.480
and the trial remained in Pittsburgh. Assistant DA Lisa Pellegrini

1026
00:54:14.639 --> 00:54:17.280
was presenting the case for the state. A few days

1027
00:54:17.320 --> 00:54:19.800
before the trial was to start, she was attacked by

1028
00:54:19.800 --> 00:54:22.760
the man she was dating. He banged her head violently

1029
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:27.000
against the dashboard and physically restrained her. She returned to work.

1030
00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:31.480
The defense asked for additional peremptory challenges. They were worried

1031
00:54:31.519 --> 00:54:35.079
the attack would give PA Pellegrini undue sympathy, but the

1032
00:54:35.159 --> 00:54:38.280
judge denied the request. It took two days to pick

1033
00:54:38.320 --> 00:54:41.920
the jury of eight men and four women. Opening arguments

1034
00:54:41.920 --> 00:54:45.079
were heard at the stately Allegheny County Courthouse in downtown

1035
00:54:45.079 --> 00:54:49.559
Pittsburgh on Thursday, October twenty third, twenty fourteen. About eighteen

1036
00:54:49.639 --> 00:54:54.000
months after Autumn's death. Judge Jeffrey Manning presided over the trial.

1037
00:54:54.519 --> 00:54:58.159
Prosecutors wore ladybug pins and cuff links in Autumn's honour

1038
00:54:58.280 --> 00:54:58.960
during the trial.

1039
00:54:59.400 --> 00:55:00.800
Autumn love ladybugs.

1040
00:55:01.320 --> 00:55:05.119
During the prosecution's opening arguments, Pellegrini revealed that the amount

1041
00:55:05.159 --> 00:55:08.360
of cyanide in Autumn's blood was two point two micrograms

1042
00:55:08.400 --> 00:55:12.440
per leader. Anything over one is deadly. However, there was

1043
00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:15.400
a problem with the lab result. Initially it came back

1044
00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:18.159
at over three point four micrograms. You know, I was thinking,

1045
00:55:18.159 --> 00:55:19.519
I was trying to remember what it was, and I

1046
00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:21.199
remembered it was like more than three times.

1047
00:55:21.280 --> 00:55:22.800
This part is a little confusing.

1048
00:55:23.239 --> 00:55:27.679
The test was unreliable, argued the defense. Furthermore, creatine can

1049
00:55:27.760 --> 00:55:31.719
cause a false positive in a cyanide test. Interesting Also

1050
00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:35.920
notable were Bob's Google searches of doctor Thomas McElrath, Autumn's

1051
00:55:35.960 --> 00:55:40.280
good friend and sometimes conference travel buddy. In February twenty thirteen,

1052
00:55:40.360 --> 00:55:43.639
when Autumn and McElrath were at a conference, Bob worked

1053
00:55:43.719 --> 00:55:45.840
himself up into a lather and told her he was

1054
00:55:45.880 --> 00:55:50.000
flying to California after he had allegedly seen flirtatious emails

1055
00:55:50.039 --> 00:55:54.400
between them he googled suicide's golden gate Bridge.

1056
00:55:54.719 --> 00:55:57.039
I don't think we addressed this earlier when we talked

1057
00:55:57.039 --> 00:56:00.840
about his Google search. Does increase to vaginal size suggest

1058
00:56:00.920 --> 00:56:04.480
wife is having with another And he really did think

1059
00:56:04.559 --> 00:56:05.880
she was having an affair.

1060
00:56:05.719 --> 00:56:09.039
Yeah, it sounds like it. During the defense's opening argument,

1061
00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:12.920
Diffenderfer argued that Bob was a model citizen, father, and

1062
00:56:13.039 --> 00:56:16.440
researcher who quote focused on the cure and treatment for

1063
00:56:16.519 --> 00:56:19.480
probably the worst disease that has afflicted us in the

1064
00:56:19.519 --> 00:56:23.039
history of mankind. Diffenderfer claimed that Bob told the nine

1065
00:56:23.119 --> 00:56:26.440
one one operator that Autumn should go to UPMC's Shady

1066
00:56:26.519 --> 00:56:29.559
Side because he believed she was having a stroke and

1067
00:56:29.639 --> 00:56:32.719
it was a stroke center. When he referred to her folks,

1068
00:56:32.840 --> 00:56:34.000
he meant her colleagues.

1069
00:56:34.400 --> 00:56:36.039
We talked about this when we talked about the nine

1070
00:56:36.079 --> 00:56:37.800
to one one call. It wasn't in the clip that

1071
00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:40.360
we had, but he said something to the effect of, like,

1072
00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:43.000
we'll take her here because your folks are here, okay,

1073
00:56:43.039 --> 00:56:46.199
And I think we inferred it as her parents right

1074
00:56:46.360 --> 00:56:48.280
as he just meant her colleagues okay.

1075
00:56:48.800 --> 00:56:51.960
And lastly, the attorney said that Bob declined the autopsy

1076
00:56:52.039 --> 00:56:55.639
initially because he thought that would prevent organ harvesting, which

1077
00:56:55.719 --> 00:56:57.920
was important to Autumn, and he didn't think it would

1078
00:56:57.960 --> 00:57:01.760
be possible if an autopsy was done. Doctor Jinho Kim,

1079
00:57:01.880 --> 00:57:05.039
who worked in the lab with Bob, testified for the prosecution.

1080
00:57:05.599 --> 00:57:07.760
He told the jury that Bob asked him to keep

1081
00:57:07.800 --> 00:57:11.800
the potassium cyanide on his workbench. After Autum's death, he

1082
00:57:11.880 --> 00:57:15.400
contacted police after he realized someone had moved the deadly

1083
00:57:15.480 --> 00:57:18.960
compound when he found it in the lab refrigerator. He

1084
00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:21.039
said he knew of no research in the lab that

1085
00:57:21.119 --> 00:57:24.639
required cyanide, but acknowledged that it was sometimes used in

1086
00:57:24.679 --> 00:57:27.719
the lab to promote cell death. After eight days and

1087
00:57:27.800 --> 00:57:32.199
fifty witnesses, the prosecution rested. The most damning evidence against

1088
00:57:32.239 --> 00:57:35.559
Bob Ferrante was the Google searches, the rush order of

1089
00:57:35.599 --> 00:57:39.119
the cyanide, and the presence of cyanide in Autumn's blood.

1090
00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:42.559
Even if the amount was questionable, it was indisputable that

1091
00:57:42.599 --> 00:57:45.800
she had cyanide in her blood. We'll be back after

1092
00:57:45.880 --> 00:57:55.559
a break. The defense hammered away at a technician from

1093
00:57:55.639 --> 00:57:59.559
Quest Diagnostics who did the initial cyanide test on Autumn's blood.

1094
00:58:00.079 --> 00:58:03.360
Remember, the test had a discrepancy It originally came back

1095
00:58:03.480 --> 00:58:07.280
at three point four and then later at two point two,

1096
00:58:07.320 --> 00:58:09.039
but both amounts are lethal.

1097
00:58:09.599 --> 00:58:13.280
The medical examiner sent Autumn's blood for additional cyanide testing

1098
00:58:13.599 --> 00:58:17.639
to the National Medical Services or NMS lab. NMS is

1099
00:58:17.719 --> 00:58:20.079
known to be the most prestigious lab in the country.

1100
00:58:20.559 --> 00:58:24.239
The cyanide level came back as non lethal. However, there

1101
00:58:24.239 --> 00:58:27.599
were several reasons for this. When Autumn arrived at the hospital,

1102
00:58:27.760 --> 00:58:30.719
very little blood was drawn. Only one vial of blood

1103
00:58:30.760 --> 00:58:34.159
remained from the first blood draw. This blood was crucial

1104
00:58:34.199 --> 00:58:36.800
to the investigation because it was before she had been

1105
00:58:36.840 --> 00:58:40.440
given fluids or any therapeutic measures had been taken such

1106
00:58:40.480 --> 00:58:42.199
as EKMO or dialysis.

1107
00:58:42.440 --> 00:58:45.440
Remember when Autumn was first at the hospital in the

1108
00:58:45.480 --> 00:58:48.800
emergency room, they had a hard time drawing any blood, right,

1109
00:58:49.159 --> 00:58:52.239
and so they had very very little of this that

1110
00:58:52.320 --> 00:58:52.840
first draw.

1111
00:58:52.960 --> 00:58:56.679
Yeah, the medical examiner sent this file to the MMS lab,

1112
00:58:56.840 --> 00:58:59.719
but for an unknown reason, the test didn't work and

1113
00:58:59.760 --> 00:59:04.079
the supply was exhausted. Forty nine vials of Autumn's blood remained,

1114
00:59:04.119 --> 00:59:06.559
but they were drawn after her blood had been cycled

1115
00:59:06.559 --> 00:59:09.960
through echmo for three days, and cyanide is not stable

1116
00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:12.480
in the blood or in a test tube and the

1117
00:59:12.519 --> 00:59:15.679
sample was tested eighteen days after the blood was drawn.

1118
00:59:16.079 --> 00:59:20.559
Another technician testified that the NMS lab's spectrophotometer was not

1119
00:59:20.679 --> 00:59:23.039
working and they would not be able to produce an

1120
00:59:23.039 --> 00:59:27.719
exact amount of cyanide in Autumn's blood, but a range. Furthermore,

1121
00:59:27.760 --> 00:59:29.960
the vial of blood had been opened and used for

1122
00:59:30.039 --> 00:59:33.039
other tests. Each time the vial was opened, it was

1123
00:59:33.079 --> 00:59:35.559
a chance for the cyanide to further evaporate.

1124
00:59:36.079 --> 00:59:37.960
One article that I read said that half of the

1125
00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:42.159
cyanide can evaporate within an hour, but it remained stable

1126
00:59:42.199 --> 00:59:44.079
in the organs and tissues.

1127
00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:47.679
At this point, the medical examiner couldn't use another lab

1128
00:59:47.800 --> 00:59:51.199
because too much time had elapsed. The test results ultimately

1129
00:59:51.280 --> 00:59:54.599
provided by NMS to the medical examiner measured the cyanide

1130
00:59:54.679 --> 00:59:57.559
between point three and point five, on the high end

1131
00:59:57.599 --> 00:59:58.920
of a non lethal amount.

1132
00:59:59.280 --> 01:00:02.719
Remember, one micro graham was the lethal dose, so this

1133
01:00:02.920 --> 01:00:07.599
test it was quite a bit away from one micrograham.

1134
01:00:07.639 --> 01:00:10.119
Also, if jurors were to believe either of the two

1135
01:00:10.239 --> 01:00:13.599
quest blood tests that Autumn had an extremely lethal dose

1136
01:00:13.639 --> 01:00:16.280
of cyanide in her blood, she would have died much

1137
01:00:16.320 --> 01:00:19.320
quicker than three days. The defense was trying to put

1138
01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:21.679
reasonable doubt in the heads of the jurors, and they

1139
01:00:21.719 --> 01:00:25.320
were succeeding. On day ten, as the trial was wrapping up,

1140
01:00:25.599 --> 01:00:29.719
the defense called legendary forensic pathologist doctor Cyril Weckt as

1141
01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:31.880
an expert witness. But we've been running into him a

1142
01:00:31.880 --> 01:00:35.320
lot lately, haven't we Wekt has consulted in high profile

1143
01:00:35.360 --> 01:00:39.360
cases such as Michael Jackson, John Beney, Ramsay, and JFK.

1144
01:00:39.880 --> 01:00:44.440
He once served as coroner and medical examiner in Allegaty County, Pennsylvania.

1145
01:00:44.960 --> 01:00:48.239
Known to be verbose and self important, his current value

1146
01:00:48.239 --> 01:00:51.559
as an expert witness is questionable and polarizing.

1147
01:00:51.719 --> 01:00:54.719
Oh wow, that was kind of harsh there, I'll say.

1148
01:00:55.639 --> 01:00:59.679
Weckt pointed to structural abnormalities in Autumn's heart, the thickening

1149
01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:03.000
of her heart valves and some abnormal arteries as to

1150
01:01:03.079 --> 01:01:05.559
why he couldn't rule out her cause of death being

1151
01:01:05.599 --> 01:01:08.639
heart related. He also said that the creatines she was

1152
01:01:08.679 --> 01:01:12.519
taking could alter the cyanide test. Kim and Michael Ferrante

1153
01:01:12.599 --> 01:01:16.679
testified next, recalling their childhoods as loving and their father

1154
01:01:16.760 --> 01:01:20.280
as supportive. They both liked Ottam and had fond memories

1155
01:01:20.280 --> 01:01:23.079
of her. There was no drama until the defense called

1156
01:01:23.119 --> 01:01:26.280
their final witness, Robert Ferrante.

1157
01:01:26.840 --> 01:01:29.480
Once on the stand, Bob said, quote, my wife and

1158
01:01:29.519 --> 01:01:31.559
I were like two peas in a pod. We were

1159
01:01:31.599 --> 01:01:34.679
almost exactly alike other than the years between us. We

1160
01:01:34.719 --> 01:01:38.320
thought alike, did everything alike. She was having difficulty. She

1161
01:01:38.519 --> 01:01:42.440
was becoming marginalized by the system. Harvard is typical of that.

1162
01:01:42.840 --> 01:01:45.119
What they try to do is just create lots of

1163
01:01:45.159 --> 01:01:47.920
competition for people, so they get the best people there.

1164
01:01:48.119 --> 01:01:51.320
All the time, being forty miles out to be engaged

1165
01:01:51.360 --> 01:01:54.280
in some of the peripheral hospitals that hired a number

1166
01:01:54.280 --> 01:01:57.119
of people to directly compete with her, and it became

1167
01:01:57.159 --> 01:02:01.280
difficult for both her research and clinical practice. Bob took

1168
01:02:01.360 --> 01:02:03.880
issue with Autumn being portrayed as the rising star in

1169
01:02:03.960 --> 01:02:07.400
her field. It was himself and his experience that the

1170
01:02:07.480 --> 01:02:11.159
University of Pittsburgh sought. He claimed he secured a job

1171
01:02:11.199 --> 01:02:14.440
for Autumn, not the other way around as many saw it.

1172
01:02:15.039 --> 01:02:16.800
Bob said they went through a bit of a rough

1173
01:02:16.840 --> 01:02:19.679
patch when he thought Autumn had been cheating, but they'd

1174
01:02:19.719 --> 01:02:21.760
cleared that up and they had recently taken a nice

1175
01:02:21.800 --> 01:02:25.119
family trip to Puerto Rico. He raided their marriage and

1176
01:02:25.360 --> 01:02:27.920
ate out of a ten, why would you raid our marriage?

1177
01:02:28.039 --> 01:02:28.320
Ten?

1178
01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:31.840
Eleven out of ten for me? He claimed that he

1179
01:02:31.920 --> 01:02:35.159
needed the cyanide to initiate cell death in an exciting

1180
01:02:35.239 --> 01:02:38.039
new study he was working on in which the three

1181
01:02:38.280 --> 01:02:41.559
NP was not working. Ferrante told the jury that he

1182
01:02:41.639 --> 01:02:45.440
was working closely with a patient stricken with als named

1183
01:02:45.480 --> 01:02:50.320
Neil Alexander, who founded the Live Like Lou Foundation. Alexander

1184
01:02:50.360 --> 01:02:52.960
offered up to two hundred thousand dollars to Bob to

1185
01:02:53.039 --> 01:02:57.440
begin research that replicated skin cells into stem cells that

1186
01:02:57.480 --> 01:03:01.280
would mirror brain cells, and Bob explained away his Google

1187
01:03:01.280 --> 01:03:04.559
searches as curiosity. He was on the stand for an

1188
01:03:04.559 --> 01:03:08.519
hour and seventeen minutes before the prosecution sank their teeth

1189
01:03:08.559 --> 01:03:12.480
into him. Bob was calm and affable as Prosecutor Lisa

1190
01:03:12.519 --> 01:03:16.280
Pellegrino began questioning him. He was adamant that the cyanide

1191
01:03:16.440 --> 01:03:20.079
ordered was for the upcoming research project, and he'd announced

1192
01:03:20.079 --> 01:03:23.400
it at a department meeting, although no one else remembered

1193
01:03:23.400 --> 01:03:26.960
this meeting. He made no secret of ordering the cyanide

1194
01:03:27.079 --> 01:03:30.559
or unboxing it when it arrived. This was kind of strange.

1195
01:03:30.599 --> 01:03:33.559
So in the lab in front of his employees, and

1196
01:03:33.679 --> 01:03:36.159
he ordered it through one of the lab tacks, and

1197
01:03:36.239 --> 01:03:38.400
when it came he unboxed it and he was like,

1198
01:03:38.519 --> 01:03:41.920
you know, like, hey, look the scianize here. Bob said

1199
01:03:41.960 --> 01:03:44.719
he had no idea where the missing eight point three

1200
01:03:45.079 --> 01:03:48.440
grams had gone. He admitted to going through Autumn's email

1201
01:03:48.519 --> 01:03:52.360
and finding what he called flirtatious messages, but denied that

1202
01:03:52.440 --> 01:03:54.800
he thought she was having an affair. When he was

1203
01:03:54.840 --> 01:03:57.960
again questioned about his Google searches, he said that many

1204
01:03:58.000 --> 01:04:01.280
of them were because he was nervous about Autumn's organs

1205
01:04:01.320 --> 01:04:05.320
being donated after she'd been exposed to NP three and cyanide.

1206
01:04:05.599 --> 01:04:07.719
Bob said that when Autumn came home in the night

1207
01:04:07.760 --> 01:04:10.320
of April seventeenth, he did not give her a drink

1208
01:04:10.320 --> 01:04:12.679
with creatine, but it was her habit to drink it

1209
01:04:12.719 --> 01:04:16.000
when she got home. At four twenty pm, after two

1210
01:04:16.039 --> 01:04:19.679
hours and seventeen minutes, Frante was finished with his testimony

1211
01:04:19.960 --> 01:04:23.880
and the defense rested after hearing from seventeen witnesses. I'm

1212
01:04:23.920 --> 01:04:25.880
surprised that he was on the stand for that short

1213
01:04:25.920 --> 01:04:26.679
of amount of time.

1214
01:04:27.000 --> 01:04:29.360
Yeah, thought it would be days.

1215
01:04:29.519 --> 01:04:32.480
Yeah. The judge dismissed the jury but told them that

1216
01:04:32.559 --> 01:04:35.920
he planned to have them sequestered after closing arguments until

1217
01:04:35.920 --> 01:04:39.960
a verdict was reached. On Thursday, November sixth, after closing

1218
01:04:40.039 --> 01:04:43.679
arguments and the judge's instructions, the jury began deliberations at

1219
01:04:43.679 --> 01:04:48.000
one pm. The jury's first poll had three people for guilty,

1220
01:04:48.320 --> 01:04:52.119
two for non guilty, and seven undecided. There were some

1221
01:04:52.320 --> 01:04:55.599
angry outbursts among the jurors until they settled into a

1222
01:04:55.679 --> 01:04:58.800
rhythm and agreed to judiciously re listen to the nine

1223
01:04:58.840 --> 01:05:02.320
to one one call review witness testimony one at a time.

1224
01:05:02.679 --> 01:05:05.760
They broke at seven pm and reconvened the next day.

1225
01:05:06.280 --> 01:05:09.039
As they weren't their way through the witness list on Friday,

1226
01:05:09.400 --> 01:05:13.000
the jury didn't ask the judge any questions, leaving everyone

1227
01:05:13.079 --> 01:05:17.079
wondering what was going on. Late on Friday afternoon, they

1228
01:05:17.119 --> 01:05:21.400
took another vote, nine guilty, three undecided. They'd made a

1229
01:05:21.400 --> 01:05:24.719
lot of progress. By six thirty pm, they had a

1230
01:05:24.719 --> 01:05:29.400
consensus guilty of first degree murder. Does that surprise you

1231
01:05:29.440 --> 01:05:29.719
at all?

1232
01:05:30.079 --> 01:05:33.280
I mean, it doesn't really surprise me. No, I wouldn't

1233
01:05:33.280 --> 01:05:34.480
have bet. I don't know if I would have been

1234
01:05:34.519 --> 01:05:36.280
surprised if they had acquitted him either.

1235
01:05:36.119 --> 01:05:38.960
Though, Yeah, there was a little reasonable doubt.

1236
01:05:39.199 --> 01:05:39.960
Yeah.

1237
01:05:40.000 --> 01:05:43.679
In February twenty fifteenth, at the sentencing hearing, Lois Klein

1238
01:05:43.840 --> 01:05:46.400
was present, but the elderly woman was unable to get

1239
01:05:46.400 --> 01:05:49.920
the words out, so Assistant Da Lisa Pellegrini read her

1240
01:05:49.960 --> 01:05:53.280
statement as she held her hand. Quote, the loss of

1241
01:05:53.360 --> 01:05:56.519
Autumn was never expected and has been very hard on

1242
01:05:56.559 --> 01:05:59.360
William and I. There was no longer peace in our lives.

1243
01:05:59.599 --> 01:06:02.840
He has definitely ruined our lives. All she ever wanted

1244
01:06:02.920 --> 01:06:04.960
was to be able to help people. She was her

1245
01:06:05.039 --> 01:06:07.360
only child, and the light of our lives has now

1246
01:06:07.400 --> 01:06:10.760
been extinguished. Lois went on to talk about how Siana

1247
01:06:10.920 --> 01:06:15.199
was thriving despite the circumstances. She danced, took karate lessons,

1248
01:06:15.280 --> 01:06:18.159
and was a terrific speller. She lamented the trips she

1249
01:06:18.199 --> 01:06:21.119
and Bill had to sacrifice and the income they'd lost.

1250
01:06:21.400 --> 01:06:24.079
A letter was also read from Sharon Audam's cousin and

1251
01:06:24.119 --> 01:06:26.880
best friend, the loss of Autumn had left a large

1252
01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:29.719
void in her life. I watched a couple of shows

1253
01:06:29.920 --> 01:06:34.639
about this case and Sharon was on them, and she

1254
01:06:35.079 --> 01:06:38.360
was just heartbroken. It was really sad. Kim and Michael

1255
01:06:38.559 --> 01:06:41.519
Ferrante did not attend the hearing or write letters on

1256
01:06:41.559 --> 01:06:45.039
their father's behalf. Kurante declined to speak, but the judge

1257
01:06:45.039 --> 01:06:47.719
had a lot to say to him. Before Judge Jeffrey

1258
01:06:47.760 --> 01:06:50.199
Manning handed down his sentence, he read a quote to

1259
01:06:50.320 --> 01:06:54.719
him by author W. H. Auden quote, society must stand

1260
01:06:54.760 --> 01:06:59.039
in further murder victim to either demand atonement or grant forgiveness.

1261
01:06:59.320 --> 01:07:03.440
We are here today to demand atonement. Robert Frante was

1262
01:07:03.480 --> 01:07:06.800
sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

1263
01:07:07.280 --> 01:07:11.239
Ferrante appealed, claiming that the batch cyanide blood test shouldn't

1264
01:07:11.280 --> 01:07:13.760
have been allowed as evidence and that a venue change

1265
01:07:14.079 --> 01:07:17.599
should have been allowed. His first and subsequent appeals have

1266
01:07:17.679 --> 01:07:20.920
all been denied. Bottomn Kleind wasn't just a world class

1267
01:07:20.960 --> 01:07:23.920
doctor and researcher. She was a loving mother, a baker,

1268
01:07:24.079 --> 01:07:26.840
a reader, a cross stitcher, and a friend. Her favorite

1269
01:07:26.840 --> 01:07:30.039
color was purple and she could touch her tongue to

1270
01:07:30.119 --> 01:07:33.320
her nose. She had a wonderful laugh and is missed

1271
01:07:33.320 --> 01:07:34.719
by many. Rest in peace.

1272
01:07:34.719 --> 01:07:35.159
Autumn.

1273
01:07:35.719 --> 01:07:39.599
While researching this case, I came across something called cyano

1274
01:07:39.760 --> 01:07:42.719
kit and it can save the life of someone poisoned

1275
01:07:42.719 --> 01:07:45.880
with cyanide if they present themselves to the er within

1276
01:07:45.960 --> 01:07:49.559
two hours of the poisoning. The cyano kit binds to

1277
01:07:49.599 --> 01:07:53.000
the cyanide and converts it to bidamin B twelve.

1278
01:07:53.480 --> 01:07:56.599
That's interesting. Yeah, no idea such a thing existent. I

1279
01:07:56.599 --> 01:07:58.960
guess that would only be useful if, like you accidentally

1280
01:07:59.000 --> 01:08:01.239
took sciotidically knew you took it.

1281
01:08:01.719 --> 01:08:04.480
In honor of Autumn's body of work, Brigham and Woman's

1282
01:08:04.480 --> 01:08:08.519
Hospital named their neurology program after her. Both of Autumn's

1283
01:08:08.519 --> 01:08:12.800
donated organs were successfully transplanted. A man in his sixties

1284
01:08:12.800 --> 01:08:15.199
wrote a letter to Bob thanking him for a second

1285
01:08:15.320 --> 01:08:16.119
chance of life.

1286
01:08:16.239 --> 01:08:18.880
O that sice I was wondering about, Like, if you're

1287
01:08:18.880 --> 01:08:20.960
poisoned with cinaide, and I know we talked about it

1288
01:08:21.000 --> 01:08:23.399
like that, it can, you know, go, it can get

1289
01:08:23.439 --> 01:08:24.600
out of your organs and stuff.

1290
01:08:24.600 --> 01:08:26.039
But it just I think if you have like a

1291
01:08:26.079 --> 01:08:28.560
healthy system and you know the rest, well, I guess

1292
01:08:28.640 --> 01:08:30.720
if you're getting a donated organ, you're not that healthy,

1293
01:08:30.720 --> 01:08:33.960
but your blood is healthy, it can flush it out

1294
01:08:34.000 --> 01:08:34.680
pretty quickly.

1295
01:08:34.800 --> 01:08:37.000
I think if you were the recipient of an organ,

1296
01:08:37.520 --> 01:08:39.920
you would probably not want it from someone that had

1297
01:08:39.960 --> 01:08:40.960
cyanide poisoning.

1298
01:08:41.000 --> 01:08:43.359
But I'm glad of working, you would be pretty freaked out.

1299
01:08:43.399 --> 01:08:44.239
Well, yeah, of course.

1300
01:08:44.680 --> 01:08:48.520
So Sadly, Bill Klein died in twenty seventeen in lois

1301
01:08:48.640 --> 01:08:52.039
in twenty twenty one, so Siana was still a minor.

1302
01:08:52.359 --> 01:08:54.840
I really couldn't find any information. But I hope she's

1303
01:08:54.880 --> 01:08:56.960
well and I hope she's well cared for. I think

1304
01:08:57.000 --> 01:08:59.960
there were other people in her life, maybe her siblings.

1305
01:08:59.479 --> 01:09:01.319
There well, I hope so too.

1306
01:09:01.479 --> 01:09:05.239
Yeah, I'm still a little uncertain about a motive in

1307
01:09:05.239 --> 01:09:09.439
this case. Yes, I am toob was a very smart man,

1308
01:09:10.039 --> 01:09:12.520
and I just can't imagine that he would think that

1309
01:09:12.600 --> 01:09:15.800
he could order cyanide and get away with it.

1310
01:09:15.960 --> 01:09:18.439
Yeah, I agree with that, And I also do wonder

1311
01:09:18.479 --> 01:09:21.039
about the motive too, because I know, I'm sure he

1312
01:09:21.119 --> 01:09:23.960
loved his daughter, but he didn't seem like that into

1313
01:09:24.079 --> 01:09:27.079
having kids regardless, So why not just get a divorce

1314
01:09:27.560 --> 01:09:29.159
and move on with your life? Like what? I don't

1315
01:09:29.159 --> 01:09:31.239
know what would be stopping him. He had plenty of money,

1316
01:09:31.479 --> 01:09:34.119
So the motive part of it is a little bit

1317
01:09:34.279 --> 01:09:36.319
perplexing to me as well.

1318
01:09:36.880 --> 01:09:40.199
I think it could be ego driven. He did seem

1319
01:09:40.199 --> 01:09:43.520
like a man who had his ego and like he wanted.

1320
01:09:43.520 --> 01:09:46.199
It made clear that no, it was an autumn that

1321
01:09:46.279 --> 01:09:47.479
was off for the job in Pittsburgh.

1322
01:09:47.520 --> 01:09:49.880
It was me. Yeah, you hear stuff like that, it

1323
01:09:49.880 --> 01:09:51.960
really does make you kind of wonder. But then yeah,

1324
01:09:52.000 --> 01:09:55.000
also ordering the cyanide, I mean, it sounds like he

1325
01:09:55.039 --> 01:09:58.279
had a good excuse, not really of core. But if

1326
01:09:58.319 --> 01:10:01.119
it wasn't like documented, hm, it.

1327
01:10:01.119 --> 01:10:03.279
Still seems I don't think the research was going to

1328
01:10:03.319 --> 01:10:05.520
start that week or anything, so it definitely didn't need

1329
01:10:05.560 --> 01:10:08.520
to be organed. And all those Google Google searches are

1330
01:10:08.720 --> 01:10:10.159
they're always so telling.

1331
01:10:10.359 --> 01:10:12.000
That is one of the most telling things to me,

1332
01:10:12.199 --> 01:10:14.880
is those Google searches, Like I mean, I can see

1333
01:10:15.439 --> 01:10:18.159
googling some things out of curiosity, but the things he

1334
01:10:18.359 --> 01:10:20.199
searched for were pretty specific.

1335
01:10:20.279 --> 01:10:22.439
Yeah, I think you could give them benefit of the

1336
01:10:22.479 --> 01:10:24.239
doubt on a few of them, but not all of them.

1337
01:10:24.279 --> 01:10:24.960
Yeah, exactly.

1338
01:10:25.359 --> 01:10:27.800
Do you think having a spouse in the medical field

1339
01:10:28.279 --> 01:10:29.560
is a danger to.

1340
01:10:29.520 --> 01:10:34.600
Your al I mean, not necessarily. I don't even know

1341
01:10:34.600 --> 01:10:36.640
how to answer that. No. Of course, people in the

1342
01:10:36.680 --> 01:10:38.920
medical field are no more likely to kill their spouse

1343
01:10:39.000 --> 01:10:42.920
than someone who's not. But do decide to kill their spouse,

1344
01:10:43.000 --> 01:10:45.640
they're probably more capable of doing it in a way

1345
01:10:45.640 --> 01:10:49.439
that is harder to detect than if you weren't in

1346
01:10:49.479 --> 01:10:50.199
the medical field.

1347
01:10:50.279 --> 01:10:52.399
So it's a lot easier for people in the medical

1348
01:10:52.439 --> 01:10:56.880
field to have access to arsenic or cyanide or you know,

1349
01:10:56.960 --> 01:10:59.159
any other number of deadly toxins.

1350
01:10:59.239 --> 01:10:59.880
Yeah, for sure.

1351
01:11:00.439 --> 01:11:03.760
Do you think that May December relationships can work? Like

1352
01:11:04.239 --> 01:11:06.199
the difference in their ages is twenty three years.

1353
01:11:06.279 --> 01:11:08.000
Yeah, that's a pretty big difference.

1354
01:11:08.119 --> 01:11:10.199
Yeah, I think it's really I think it is really

1355
01:11:10.199 --> 01:11:12.079
tough to make it work unless you have a lot

1356
01:11:12.159 --> 01:11:14.640
of money and you can keep yourself young and you

1357
01:11:14.680 --> 01:11:17.439
can hire people to help care for your children, like

1358
01:11:17.800 --> 01:11:19.399
Alec Baldwin for example.

1359
01:11:19.520 --> 01:11:21.560
Okay, yeah, but there's even if you have a lot

1360
01:11:21.560 --> 01:11:24.239
of money, there's no guarantee that you're going to live

1361
01:11:24.359 --> 01:11:26.000
longer and healthier, I guess.

1362
01:11:26.079 --> 01:11:29.319
But I think like a five year difference is okay.

1363
01:11:29.359 --> 01:11:32.640
I think anything longer than that makes it pretty challenging.

1364
01:11:32.840 --> 01:11:34.800
I mean, I think you definitely have less in common

1365
01:11:34.840 --> 01:11:37.840
the further away your age gets. I think you have

1366
01:11:37.920 --> 01:11:39.840
less in common, less things to talk about.

1367
01:11:40.000 --> 01:11:42.760
Plenty of men your age that would data twenty two year.

1368
01:11:42.640 --> 01:11:45.079
Old and have no problem with it, for sure, But

1369
01:11:45.199 --> 01:11:47.560
to make it work in the long term. I do

1370
01:11:47.640 --> 01:11:49.279
think it would be it would be harder.

1371
01:11:49.399 --> 01:11:51.840
Yeah. Before we wrap up this case, I wanted to

1372
01:11:51.880 --> 01:11:56.520
mention that historically, medical research has been disproportionately focused on men.

1373
01:11:56.800 --> 01:11:59.800
While the National Institutes of Health now mandates that women

1374
01:11:59.840 --> 01:12:02.960
may make up half of the participants and federally funded

1375
01:12:03.000 --> 01:12:08.560
clinical trials, disparities remain. A study analyzing twenty thousand clinical

1376
01:12:08.600 --> 01:12:15.880
trials found that women are still underrepresented in studies in cardiology, oncology, neurology, immunology,

1377
01:12:15.960 --> 01:12:20.640
and hematology. This imbalance is significant because men and women

1378
01:12:20.720 --> 01:12:24.960
often experience diseases differently. For example, heart disease symptoms and

1379
01:12:25.000 --> 01:12:28.880
women can differ from those in men, leading to misdiagnosis

1380
01:12:28.920 --> 01:12:33.199
and ineffective treatments when studies primarily focus on male subjects.

1381
01:12:33.399 --> 01:12:38.039
Racial and ethnic minorities are also vastly underrepresented in medical research.

1382
01:12:38.359 --> 01:12:41.720
Too often, women's symptoms are dismissed by doctors, told their

1383
01:12:41.760 --> 01:12:44.600
illness is in their head, leading many to struggle with

1384
01:12:44.680 --> 01:12:48.840
misdiagnosed or overlooked conditions, which makes the loss of doctor

1385
01:12:48.880 --> 01:12:52.279
Autumn client even sadder. She took the time to listen

1386
01:12:52.319 --> 01:12:56.119
to patients with compassion and understood how it felt to

1387
01:12:56.159 --> 01:12:58.279
be misunderstood by a doctor.

1388
01:12:58.479 --> 01:13:01.439
That was very well said. I'll just add my mom

1389
01:13:01.560 --> 01:13:04.520
passed away from a heart attack that had she had

1390
01:13:04.520 --> 01:13:08.000
not been diagnosed with anything beforehand. And I often wonder,

1391
01:13:08.079 --> 01:13:11.560
because I've read that before, that you know, women in

1392
01:13:11.600 --> 01:13:14.479
a lot of cases there, you know, the first heart

1393
01:13:14.520 --> 01:13:16.880
attack that you have as a woman is more likely

1394
01:13:17.000 --> 01:13:19.720
to kill you because they're less likely to have been

1395
01:13:19.760 --> 01:13:22.039
diagnosed beforehand with any kind of heart disease.

1396
01:13:22.119 --> 01:13:24.720
Yeah, the symptoms are so much different in women, and

1397
01:13:24.800 --> 01:13:27.920
even across you know women, the symptoms vary from person

1398
01:13:27.960 --> 01:13:28.359
to perpose.

1399
01:13:28.760 --> 01:13:29.079
Yeah.

1400
01:13:29.119 --> 01:13:32.319
So I just mentioned this because doctor Adam Klein wanted

1401
01:13:32.359 --> 01:13:34.960
to change that. Yeah, and she just seemed like a

1402
01:13:35.000 --> 01:13:38.520
remarkable woman who really cared about women's health. Yeah, it's

1403
01:13:38.520 --> 01:13:44.439
a really it's a huge loss. And even her scumbag husband,

1404
01:13:45.640 --> 01:13:48.000
I think he did really valuable research too, So it's

1405
01:13:48.039 --> 01:13:50.600
a it's a huge loss for the medical community to

1406
01:13:50.680 --> 01:13:52.880
lose both of them in their field of research.

1407
01:13:52.960 --> 01:13:53.600
Yeah, for sure.

1408
01:13:54.000 --> 01:13:55.760
I want to mention the sources that I use for

1409
01:13:55.840 --> 01:13:58.680
this case. I read a book called Death by Cyanide

1410
01:13:59.000 --> 01:14:02.600
by Paula Ree Award, who did a great job. Researching

1411
01:14:02.640 --> 01:14:07.279
this case. I also used newspapers dot com, the Pittsburgh

1412
01:14:07.319 --> 01:14:10.920
paper that Paula Reid writes for. She wrote a lot

1413
01:14:10.960 --> 01:14:13.760
of the articles on newspaper dot com, and both of

1414
01:14:13.800 --> 01:14:17.399
those sources were very helpful. And I wanted to thank

1415
01:14:17.479 --> 01:14:20.359
our friend Debbie again for recommending this case to us.

1416
01:14:20.359 --> 01:14:23.439
Debbie from True Crime University. So please give Debbie a

1417
01:14:23.520 --> 01:14:26.760
listen and we will post the recipe. It will be

1418
01:14:26.800 --> 01:14:36.960
the first thing on our show. Notes. Okay, we have

1419
01:14:37.000 --> 01:14:38.359
the rest of the weekend in front of us. What

1420
01:14:38.399 --> 01:14:39.079
are we going to do?

1421
01:14:39.239 --> 01:14:41.640
Well, we lose an hour, so it's really not the

1422
01:14:41.680 --> 01:14:44.600
whole we have to account for that.

1423
01:14:44.720 --> 01:14:47.159
You really focused on that. You're really bummed about losing

1424
01:14:47.159 --> 01:14:47.439
that hour.

1425
01:14:48.319 --> 01:14:49.000
I can't get over it.

1426
01:14:49.159 --> 01:14:51.600
Don't well you did in your defense, you lost a

1427
01:14:51.600 --> 01:14:52.439
lot of sleep this week.

1428
01:14:52.439 --> 01:14:54.800
I thought, I'm worried about the sleep I missed. I

1429
01:14:54.880 --> 01:14:59.359
missed hour of productivity of doing something important in the world,

1430
01:14:59.359 --> 01:15:02.640
of working on my next case. We're watching an episode

1431
01:15:02.680 --> 01:15:04.600
of what we do in the Shadows or whatever.

1432
01:15:04.800 --> 01:15:07.880
So how you doing without any football or this is like,

1433
01:15:08.000 --> 01:15:08.439
it is a.

1434
01:15:08.399 --> 01:15:09.439
Hard time for me.

1435
01:15:09.560 --> 01:15:10.199
It's a hard time.

1436
01:15:10.199 --> 01:15:14.600
I'm not a basketball fan. And no football basketball. I do,

1437
01:15:14.680 --> 01:15:16.600
but even that, I'm not that into it.

1438
01:15:16.720 --> 01:15:19.279
He hasn't even started yet, right, I don't.

1439
01:15:19.079 --> 01:15:21.960
Even know, But no, I don't. I don't think so.

1440
01:15:21.960 --> 01:15:23.520
So yeah, it's it's a tough time of year.

1441
01:15:23.840 --> 01:15:26.000
So I'm reading this book that I am kind of

1442
01:15:26.039 --> 01:15:29.359
excited about getting back to. It's called The Husbands by

1443
01:15:29.560 --> 01:15:33.760
Holly Gramazio g R. A. M. A. Z Io, and

1444
01:15:33.880 --> 01:15:36.560
I'm really enjoying it. It doesn't have the best reviews

1445
01:15:36.600 --> 01:15:39.319
on but I'm going to tell you a little bit

1446
01:15:39.399 --> 01:15:42.319
about it. It's not giving anything away that's not revealed

1447
01:15:42.359 --> 01:15:44.880
in the first chapter or two. Okay, But this woman,

1448
01:15:44.920 --> 01:15:48.319
I think she's in her early thirties, she's not married,

1449
01:15:48.840 --> 01:15:51.960
and all of a sudden she opens her attic like

1450
01:15:52.000 --> 01:15:54.600
she has a pull down attic, you know with the stairs,

1451
01:15:54.640 --> 01:15:57.239
and she pulls down the attic for some reason, and

1452
01:15:57.640 --> 01:16:00.600
all of a sudden a man appears in her her house,

1453
01:16:00.720 --> 01:16:04.439
and her house is different. This guy is her husband, okay,

1454
01:16:04.720 --> 01:16:08.319
and she's just like, how how did I get a husband?

1455
01:16:08.720 --> 01:16:12.520
And then she figures out that the attic is somehow

1456
01:16:12.520 --> 01:16:16.720
producing husbands, and she decides that she doesn't like the

1457
01:16:16.760 --> 01:16:19.119
first one, so she like makes an excuse and gets

1458
01:16:19.119 --> 01:16:21.840
the backup in the attic, and so like the attic

1459
01:16:22.000 --> 01:16:26.920
keeps keeps producing husbands, like literally like husband after her husband.

1460
01:16:26.760 --> 01:16:28.960
Keeps going until she finds one that she wants.

1461
01:16:28.960 --> 01:16:30.479
Well, I don't know how the book ends, and I

1462
01:16:30.479 --> 01:16:32.439
if I knew that, I wouldn't tell you. I have

1463
01:16:32.520 --> 01:16:34.319
like twenty five percent of the book to go. But

1464
01:16:34.840 --> 01:16:37.359
I'm really enjoying it so far because it's the premise

1465
01:16:37.439 --> 01:16:39.840
is really original and funny to me, just that you know,

1466
01:16:39.880 --> 01:16:42.119
she's meeting all these different men, and even if it's

1467
01:16:42.119 --> 01:16:45.079
like she's like you're chewing with your mouth open, No,

1468
01:16:46.000 --> 01:16:48.119
you don't shower enough. No, you know, it's just like

1469
01:16:48.159 --> 01:16:51.399
all these just teeny tiny, little not really teeny tanks.

1470
01:16:51.439 --> 01:16:54.359
Some of our are more major than others. It's just

1471
01:16:54.760 --> 01:16:56.239
so far, I'm just really that's.

1472
01:16:56.119 --> 01:16:59.119
An interesting concept. It's like a metaphor for online dating,

1473
01:16:59.199 --> 01:16:59.840
do you think.

1474
01:16:59.720 --> 01:17:03.920
Or yeah, I mean pretty much. Yeah, I'm just curious

1475
01:17:04.119 --> 01:17:06.319
what I know you're going to say, like I'm a

1476
01:17:06.319 --> 01:17:09.239
good wife and all that stuff, but like what qualities

1477
01:17:09.640 --> 01:17:12.159
would you look for and a spouse or what are

1478
01:17:12.159 --> 01:17:13.239
the deal breakers for you?

1479
01:17:13.520 --> 01:17:18.960
Oh? I don't know. I haven't thought about this for many,

1480
01:17:19.119 --> 01:17:19.840
many years.

1481
01:17:20.720 --> 01:17:24.000
We do get along really well, but part of it

1482
01:17:24.079 --> 01:17:27.159
the has I think we've trained each other to extinguish

1483
01:17:27.199 --> 01:17:31.520
some of the habits that weren't so attractive. So I

1484
01:17:31.560 --> 01:17:33.520
think you're a lot neaterer than you used to be.

1485
01:17:34.239 --> 01:17:38.359
And I'm probably a little nicer than I used to be. No, No,

1486
01:17:38.439 --> 01:17:39.920
I used to be a lot moodier I think than

1487
01:17:39.920 --> 01:17:40.560
I am now.

1488
01:17:40.760 --> 01:17:41.439
Maybe a little bit.

1489
01:17:41.520 --> 01:17:44.439
Yeah, you agreed to that really quickly.

1490
01:17:44.960 --> 01:17:48.079
Maybe I said maybe maybe. I wouldn't say for.

1491
01:17:48.079 --> 01:17:51.079
Sure, but it's just interesting to think about, like if

1492
01:17:51.119 --> 01:17:54.119
you were to, you know, put all the qualities that

1493
01:17:54.159 --> 01:17:56.880
you were looking for in a mate, but then you

1494
01:17:56.880 --> 01:17:59.199
don't even know, like if you could get those qualities,

1495
01:17:59.319 --> 01:18:01.279
you might get board of that per And actually that

1496
01:18:01.359 --> 01:18:03.079
kind of a little bit of his brother, But she

1497
01:18:03.119 --> 01:18:05.560
does that does kind of happen. She gets this that

1498
01:18:05.640 --> 01:18:08.800
checks all the boxes, and she's like, just maybe you're

1499
01:18:08.800 --> 01:18:10.039
a little too perfect.

1500
01:18:10.079 --> 01:18:12.800
I probably I can't remember for sure, but I probably

1501
01:18:12.840 --> 01:18:14.720
made a list like that when I was like in

1502
01:18:14.760 --> 01:18:16.960
my twenties, because I was like an engineer, so I

1503
01:18:17.000 --> 01:18:20.039
was very logical and would think a spreadsheet. You mean,

1504
01:18:20.199 --> 01:18:22.800
I probably made a spreadsheet with like, you know, different

1505
01:18:22.880 --> 01:18:24.680
qualities that I was looking for, and then I had

1506
01:18:24.720 --> 01:18:27.439
a column that had like a waiting Well, this quality

1507
01:18:27.560 --> 01:18:30.279
is really important, this one maybe not as important, and

1508
01:18:30.279 --> 01:18:33.640
that I would probably put in a rating for every

1509
01:18:33.920 --> 01:18:35.520
wish woman that I dated.

1510
01:18:35.640 --> 01:18:36.119
Produce that.

1511
01:18:36.159 --> 01:18:38.239
So I don't. I'm pretty sure I did not actually

1512
01:18:38.279 --> 01:18:40.359
do that, but it would it wouldn't shock me if

1513
01:18:40.359 --> 01:18:40.920
I had done it.

1514
01:18:41.760 --> 01:18:43.680
Well, I think I won the lottery with you. You're

1515
01:18:43.680 --> 01:18:46.720
a very good, very good husband. And like kind of

1516
01:18:46.760 --> 01:18:51.560
stuttered with doesn't mean it's not true. We all know

1517
01:18:51.680 --> 01:18:55.279
I stood her a lot. Like when I can't, I

1518
01:18:55.359 --> 01:19:01.079
literally cannot say. The word deteriorate was perfect. I wrote

1519
01:19:01.119 --> 01:19:03.680
the script and I had it in there like three times.

1520
01:19:04.000 --> 01:19:06.039
So you don't just leave that word out.

1521
01:19:07.079 --> 01:19:09.359
You would think you would think I would learn my lesson.

1522
01:19:09.439 --> 01:19:12.319
We deteriorate that you didn't again.

1523
01:19:12.239 --> 01:19:13.680
Say it if you're saying it, But if you're like

1524
01:19:14.159 --> 01:19:16.960
her brain deteriorated in the well, I guess I said

1525
01:19:16.960 --> 01:19:19.960
it there. Maybe I just need to keep practicing or

1526
01:19:20.000 --> 01:19:25.600
not think about it. Well, one thing that has not deteriorated,

1527
01:19:25.760 --> 01:19:27.880
I said, I read the second time, deteriorate. It is

1528
01:19:27.920 --> 01:19:31.359
our appreciation for our audience. We love you guys so much,

1529
01:19:31.359 --> 01:19:33.960
and we appreciate all your support and all your kindness.

1530
01:19:34.159 --> 01:19:36.239
We sure do. We'd love to hear from you as well.

1531
01:19:36.680 --> 01:19:40.680
Follow us on social media Instagram, Facebook, We are on

1532
01:19:40.880 --> 01:19:42.920
both of those, or we on other places. I can't

1533
01:19:42.960 --> 01:19:43.680
remember where we're at.

1534
01:19:43.760 --> 01:19:47.000
Well, you've been working on getting some TikTok stuff together

1535
01:19:47.079 --> 01:19:50.640
and stalled out there, but we'll get it there eventually.

1536
01:19:50.720 --> 01:19:53.680
Yeah. We will send us an email at Lovemrykill at

1537
01:19:53.680 --> 01:19:57.520
gmail dot com and consider supporting us on Patreon dot

1538
01:19:57.560 --> 01:20:00.840
com slash love Marykill. We have one tier five dollars

1539
01:20:00.880 --> 01:20:03.760
a month, which gets you early ad free access and

1540
01:20:03.880 --> 01:20:04.680
a monthly.

1541
01:20:04.439 --> 01:20:06.319
Bonus episode until next time.

1542
01:20:06.600 --> 01:20:42.119
Don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband.

1543
01:20:52.760 --> 01:20:58.199
Her vital signs were rapidly deteriorating. Is it like I'm

1544
01:20:58.199 --> 01:21:00.880
telling you perfect, I'm going to do it one more

1545
01:21:00.880 --> 01:21:02.840
time and then I'm going to change the work, all right?

1546
01:21:03.359 --> 01:21:05.760
Blood coming from a vein is less oxygenated.

1547
01:21:06.560 --> 01:21:09.640
Damn it, say it oxygenated.

1548
01:21:10.199 --> 01:21:13.279
Oxygenated. There I feel like I don't like I'm just

1549
01:21:13.680 --> 01:21:15.680
a cartoon character saying it. Sometimes