Ellen Greenberg

WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Tina and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned

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in over twenty years of marriage,
it's that some days you'll feel like killing

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your wife, and some days you'll
feel like killing your husband. Welcome to

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love, Mary Kill Hey Rich.
How are you? I'm pretty good.

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How are you, Tina? I'm
great? Good. Hey listeners, Oh,

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I always forget to say that.
I know we've had a lot of

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new listeners lately, and a lot
of new international listeners. So welcome,

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Yeah, welcome. Happy to have
you. Absolutely. So it's Thursday,

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it's Thursday afternoon, and we're going
to release this bonus episode tomorrow. Okay,

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yeah, it's it's a special episode, and I'm going to try not

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to get emotional. You know,
I just I always get attached to the

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victims. It's not always, but
most of the time, I just I

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do. I think about them all
the time. Not exaggerating, I think

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about them all the time, Like
have this little ritual in my head.

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I try to think of them before
I go to bed at night, just

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to remember them. Isn't that weird? Yeah? I mean it's you're a

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You're an empathetic person, You're a
good person. Yeah, but today we're

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going to talk about Ellen Greenberg.
And it's a very famous case. I

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think a lot of people probably know
it. But tomorrow today, if you're

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listening to it, is her birthday. Okay. So i'd actually been working

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on this case for a couple of
weeks. I always have a few going

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and when I realized it was tomorrow
or today is her birthday, her fortieth

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birthday, I was like, oh, we should I want to try to

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get this out sooner. Cool.
Well, yeah, looking forward to hearing

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about it. I don't I do
not know about the case. It's a

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it's a baffling case. It's devastating, but it's baffling. So hopefully we

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will have some good discussion. But
I did break you a snack. I

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know you're super duper hungry, and
here you go, Well that's it's a

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good snack. Well'll just pretend that
they're fresh and they haven't been sitting around

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a refrigerator for two weeks. But
I've been making protein bites lately for everyone.

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It's a nice little They're really good. They're they're almost like eating a

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thing a cookie dough. But I
know they're healthier than they're a little healthier.

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Yeah, So here you go.
These have what do they have in

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them? Chocolate chips and peanut butter
and honey and O meal, and I

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think I put flax and chia and
lots of good stuff. So I do

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you want to have one of those
now? Yeah? All right, we'll

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take a little protein come back full
of energy. All right. It took

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you a minute to digest that.
It's so good though. I really like

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those a lot. I'm glad you
like them. I forgot to say I

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put protein powder in them too,
But I'll post a recipe if anyone is

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interested. But it's one of those
things that everyone probably has their own version

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of an energy bite or a protein
bite. Yeah. So you just make

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them and you put them in a
tupwork container, stick him in the fridge,

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and they're just there and people just
people just pop them back on them.

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But these have been there for a
couple of weeks. You were out

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of town last week, and I
think, well, dairy free daughter,

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and make her a separate batch without
the protein powder, and hers have been

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gone. But I don't eat them. I forget about them. And I've

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been trying not to snack as much
too, so yeah, but perfect opportunity

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to have one of those today.
Ye okay, So I'm going to try

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my best not to get emotional because
I am already feeling a little choked up

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about Okay, if we need to
take a break, we can take a

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break, Okay. I also wanted
to give a shout out to this product.

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I got it TJ Max last week. I love it so much.

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It makes me so happy. It's
so simple, but evy and facial spray.

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It's just it's super hot in here. So I brought you sound like

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you're sponsored by it. They paid
us seven million dollars to run this atch

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today, so wow. Yeah,
I'm I'm looking forward to now. They

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need zero dollars and zero sense.
But I'd just like to give so well,

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you know, I sprayed in your
face all the time when we're driving.

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I know, but our listeners don't
know. What is it? Evan

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facial spray And I found it at
TJ Max. A daughter and I like

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to go to TJ Max to the
beauty section and buy a lot of products

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that we don't really need, but
I love this one. It's very refreshing.

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It is refreshing. I enjoy it
too. Ellen Ray Greenberg twenty eight

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died on January twenty six, twenty
eleven. The declaration of her manner of

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death is the most confusing I've ever
come across. Ellen's death was initially ruled

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a homicide by the Philadelphia Medical Examiner, but was later modified to a suicide.

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And that matters because once a death
is ruled a suicide, investigation stops

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and a killer is potentially free.
It's been said that the best way to

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stop a murder investigation is to have
it declared a suicide. Ellen's friends,

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family, podcasters, and many others
have worked hard to have her manner of

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death changed back to a homicide.
Today is Ellen's fortieth birthday. Happy birthday,

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Allen. We are sharing your story
today to honor your memory and in

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hopes that the state of Pennsylvania will
reclassify your case and take a closer look.

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And listeners, you can help too. There's a petition to sign that

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we will talk about at the end. Here is the story of Ellen Greenberg.

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Ellen Greenberg was born in New York
City on June twenty third, nineteen

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eighty three, to Josh and Sandy
Greenberg. Ellen was an only child.

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The Greenberg's relocated to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, where Ellen graduated high school. She

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went on to attend Penn State,
majoring in communications. She considered becoming a

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speech pathologist, but then decided to
become a teacher and attended graduate school for

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education at Temple University. If you
see a picture of Ellen, the first

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thing you'll notice is her beautiful megawat
smile. She had amazing teeth. Both

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of her parents worked in the dental
field, and you can tell. The

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second thing you might notice is her
freckles. She had an abundance of a

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door horble freckles. She's a beauty, but you can also tell she has

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a natural exuberance about her and eyes
that shine with happiness. I just showed

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you a picture, yeah. Description. Ellen was a twenty seven year old

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first grade teacher in Philadelphia. She
worked at Juniata Park Academy, where she

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was a beloved staff member. She
lived with her fiance, Sam Goldberg,

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in the luxury apartment building Venice Lofts
in Northwest Philly in the man A Young

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neighborhood, on the sixth floor.
She had been dating Sam Goldberg since she

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was twenty four and he was twenty
five. He was also a Pennsylvania native

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and worked as a television producer for
NBC Sports. In the summer of twenty

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ten, Sam and Ellen got engaged
and planned on getting married in August twenty

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eleven. She had even picked out
her wedding dress four days prior to her

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death. Allan set out to save
the date cards. Planning a wedding and

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being a relatively new teacher caused stress
and anxiety to mount for Ellen. Her

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school year had proved to be challenging
because the school district had changed some regulations

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and a few of her students had
some discipline issues that made her day's extra

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challenging. However, after her death, the teacher that took over her classroom

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said everything was in perfect order.
Ellen had even talked to her parents about

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moving back to Harrisburg with them and
taking a leave of absence from her job

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while she worked at improving her mental
health. Ellen's parents advised her to finish

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the school year and see a therapist. She began seeing doctor Ellen Burman,

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a psychiatrist who diagnosed her with extreme
anxiety and adjustment disorder. Doctor Burman prescribed

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two medications for Ellen, klonopin for
anxiety and ambient to help her sleep.

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She had tried xanex and zoloft,
but quickly decided they weren't helping. She

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only saw doctor Burman for three appointments
on January twelfth, January seventeenth, and

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January nineteenth, but she was beginning
to feel better. Clonipin is a pretty

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heavy draw wagon is usually used to
treat panic disorder. It is fast acting

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and longer lasting than xanax. Simply
put, it calms the brain, but

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it can be addictive. Do either
of these medications have any like suicidal ideation

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side effects? Yes, they do, doctor Berman said. Ellen seemed excited

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about her wedding and her relationship with
Sam. She didn't mention any mental or

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physical abuse, but it can take
months for people to trust a new therapist

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and fully open up to them.
Sure, Ellen's best friend, Alison could

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tell something bigger than her job was
weighing on her. Allison and Ellen had

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been best friends since they were ten
years old. They were even roommates at

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Penn State. She thought Ellen hadn't
been acting like herself for the past few

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months. She just wasn't excited about
the wedding or anything else. So January

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twenty six, twenty eleven, was
a blustery day. Philadelphia was preparing for

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another northeaster. Over fifteen inches of
snow was forecast. Ellen called her mom,

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Sandy, on the way to school, which was about a twenty minute

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drive. Sandy recalls it being a
pleasant conversation. Because of the impending bad

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weather, school was released at about
noon. On the way home, Ellen

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stopped to get gas and tried to
call her friend Allison, but she didn't

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answer. Sam was there when Ellen
returned home, and they had a relaxed

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afternoon. At about four or forty
five, Sam decided to get a workout

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in before dinner. He didn't have
to go out into the bad weather to

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work out. Their luxury apartment had
a gym in the basement. Ellen began

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making dinner and Sam finished his workout
between five fifteen and five thirty and headed

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back upstairs. He had a key, but when he tried to open the

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door, he found that the door
latch was engaged, so he wasn't able

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to gain entry. Do you know
what I'm talking about? The door latch?

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So well, this is like their
apartment, so they probably had like

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a lock on the door that the
key would open. But then they probably

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had like a little dead bolt type
of thing, not a dead world,

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but like a latch. Remember the
other day, I was like texting you,

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Yeah, I don't know how to
describe it, pretty much like it's

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like it swings around it. It's
like a thick metal latch and it.

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Yeah, just there's a little piece
on the door. So the only way

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to lock that would be from the
inside, one would think. So Sam

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yelled for Ellen and sent her several
text messages, but got no response.

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He went to find the doorman slash
concierge Phil Hanton to help him open the

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door. The doorman told Sam it
was against building policy to destroy a lock

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and he would have to do it
himself and Sam would be responsible for replacing

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the damaged lock. Sam returned to
the front desk again after several minutes to

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ask for help again, but Phil
again refused. And this is important.

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The doorman never went up to the
sixth floor. Phil later noted to police

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that Sam was wearing Timberland boots and
not running shoes when he came downstairs.

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Is seeking help? Why did you
say him? Because he allegedly just came

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from a workout, so exactly.
But then I was like, well,

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maybe he just went to lift,
and maybe you can wear or changed into

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maybe changed into workout shoes in the
workout room, like maybe he had brought

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a bag with with a change of
clothes. Could be I consulted with an

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exercise person today to ask if you
would ever wear Timberland boots when you were

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lifting. I wouldn't think so,
Like maybe, well, I was thinking

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maybe if he's going to work out
by himself and he wanted to steal reinforced

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hoes so he wouldn't drop anything on
his foot, Yeah, it seems unlikely.

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Yeah, but this person said no, that would that was not something

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that they would do. Between five
thirty two and five fifty four pm,

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Sam sent nine text messages to Ellen
that became increasingly angrier. Hello, open

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the door. What are you doing? I'm getting pissed. Hello, you

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better have an ex use? What
the fuck? Ah? You have no

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idea? Those are the text messages
I figure. He also emailed her and

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called her several times and received no
response. What did you think of those

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text messages? Well, I think
I'm assuming we're going to get to a

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point where we think he might be
a suspect in However, she ends up

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dying, And actually, I think
his text messages lead me to think it's

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less likely that he did it,
just because I would think that would be

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the natural reaction would be. You
would be kind of pissed off, like

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you really you're locking me out?
Well, I can only base this on

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my relationship with you. If that
happened in our house, I think your

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first instinct would be are you okay? What's going on? Why aren't you

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answering the door? Because but wasn't
that his first instinct? Weren't those text

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messages after like, well, the
first one was Hello, I mean it

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went I'll rate him again, Hello, opened the door? What are you

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doing? I'm getting pissed? None
of them were like are you okay?

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What's going on? Are you in
the bathroom? Are you sick? Yeah?

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Okay. I think that would be
your default, It would Yeah,

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I guess I was thinking about like, after a certain amount of time when

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he couldn't reach her, then he
started getting pissed. But well, what

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you said was interesting too, that
if he knew that he murdered her,

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why would he send like angry texts? But someone righter than myself said on

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their podcast that maybe the rest of
his text messages were always like maybe that

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was his tone that he usually had
in a text meshes, which is kind

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of terse. So he couldn't turn
around then and be like, sweetie,

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are you all right? Because that
just wasn't his way. Okay. Seam

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eventually gained entry into the apartment by
breaking the door latch. It wasn't completely

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broken, but the screws were loose
and part of the wood was chipped.

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I'm going to show you a picture
just so you can kind of describe it.

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Okay, can you describe that picture? Yeah, So the part that's

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on the door, which is like
the I don't know how to describe it.

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It's like the little knobby thing.
Yeah, it's like pulled out of

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the door at least part way.
Like the screws are kind of out of

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the door, but it's unclear to
me whether they're how far out they are.

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It looks like they're out a little
ways, but it doesn't really look

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like the door was kicked in.
That's what I would say. There was

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definitely pressure applied to the latch,
yes, but not it doesn't look like

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excessive pressure. In my opinion,
it's hard for me. It's hard to

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say. It's hard to me.
This is a really important part of the

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00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:35.000
case, and I will definitely post
this picture for everyone to see. Yeah,

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00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:37.519
I wish there was I wish there
was a better picture. To be

206
00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:41.159
honest, it's hard to tell exactly
how far out of the door the screws

207
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are. I agree. So Sam
found Ellen on the floor in the kitchen,

208
00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:50.159
fully clothed, with a white towel
that was pretty clean in her left

209
00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:54.000
hand and a knife in her right
hand. She lay in a pool of

210
00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:58.919
her own blood. The rest of
the apartment was undisturbed and there wasn't blood

211
00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:03.840
found anywhere else. Sam called his
family members. Before he called Ellen's family,

212
00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:09.000
he called his cousin, Camyan Schwartzman. Then Camyan's father, James C.

213
00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:13.279
Schwartzman, who was a high profile
attorney in Pennsylvania, called him,

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00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:18.279
and then he called his parents.
Wait, what about nine one one,

215
00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:20.879
nine one one, fit in here. We're getting there. I mean,

216
00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:24.960
he's got some calls to make before. Yeah, Uncle James showed up just

217
00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:30.039
one minute after Sam and at the
nine one one call. Get yourself an

218
00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:33.840
uncle, that's an attorney, I
would say, But let's call the let's

219
00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:37.960
play the nine one one call now, Oh, I m out. I

220
00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:43.320
just I just walked into the right
firelight on the floor, with blood everywhere

221
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on flat Rock Road, please call? Oh one Rock Road is at the

222
00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:56.840
house or a farm? Oh no, oh no, what a part?

223
00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:03.759
Please hurry, please bleeding from I
don't know. I can't she does.

224
00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:07.360
You have to calm yourself down in
order to get you somehow. I'm sorry,

225
00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:08.879
I'm sorry. She I don't know. I'm looking at her right now.

226
00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:14.960
She I don't know. I can't
see anything. She didn't there's nothing

227
00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:18.600
broken, she bleeps. Ellie,
you don't know where she's bleeding from.

228
00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:22.080
Came from? So I think her
head. I think she hit her head.

229
00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:26.600
I think everywhere everywhere. She might
have fallen. Do you know what

230
00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:30.720
happened? She may have slept his
blood on the on the table. Her

231
00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:34.279
face is a little purple. Okay, hold on for rescue for her.

232
00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:53.039
Stay on the phone. Aside six
one flat Rock Road, Please, Harry.

233
00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:56.320
What do you think on one flat
Rock? Yes, that's all.

234
00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:02.120
Like I just I went downstairs go
work out. I came back up.

235
00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:06.359
The door was lashed. Mike Fiance's
inside. It wasn't she wasn't answering,

236
00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:08.400
so after about a half hour,
I decided to break it down. I

237
00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:12.599
see her now, just on the
floor blood. She's not she's not responding.

238
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Okay, she breathing. Look at
her chest. I need you to

239
00:17:18.759 --> 00:17:19.880
calm down, and I need you
to look at her chest as Really I

240
00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:23.119
don't think she I really don't think
she listened to me. Someone's on the

241
00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:26.359
way. Look at her chest.
If she fled on her back, she's

242
00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:30.319
on her back. Look at her
chest and tell me if it's going up

243
00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:33.839
and down, up and down.
I don't see her moving. Okay.

244
00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:37.000
Do you know how to do CTR? I don't. Okay, I canna

245
00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:38.119
tell you what to do. Okay. And so they get there, I

246
00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:41.880
want you to keep her phone good
held. Yeah hi, okay, Well

247
00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:45.200
then it do CTR with me over
the phone. So they I have to

248
00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:48.319
write. Okay. So get her
flat on her back, bear her chest,

249
00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:55.519
anyone her shirt all okay? Feel
down by her side. Oh my

250
00:17:55.640 --> 00:18:00.599
god, Eli, please listen.
You can't freak out because I'm trying that

251
00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:04.400
they're trying not. Her shirt won't
come off as a zippric. She stabs

252
00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:08.559
herself where she's selling a knight.
Well, no, her nice sticking out?

253
00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:14.599
What a nice sticking out of her
heart? Oh? She stands her

254
00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:17.480
so okay, I guess so I
don't know where she's selling it. I

255
00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:19.920
don't know. Okay, well,
don't touch it. Okay, So I'll

256
00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:22.680
just started to let her out here. Now, I mean, what do

257
00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:25.400
I do? No, I mean
you can't if the nicest in her chest

258
00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:27.960
is going to be kind of harpy
the DCPR at this time? Oh no,

259
00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:33.240
oh my goodness. Okay police,
the operator to seven seven, tell

260
00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:36.880
her, yes, they are you
say a forty six yo? Want foot

261
00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:41.079
right right? Yes? Okay,
someone's on the way and the knife is

262
00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:45.319
still inside where or what? The
knife is still inside of her? Yes,

263
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:51.839
I didn't take it out? Or
what it looks like it's it looks

264
00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:55.759
like it's right in her heart.
Okay, someone's on the way out here,

265
00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:57.119
Okay, you just get Oh my
god, oh my god, how

266
00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:02.240
old is she? Twenty seven?
Twenty seven? It's no sign of life

267
00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:07.960
at all? No, please don't
peace. What's been trying to her arm?

268
00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:14.640
It's I mean, she was fine
to faint, she's ellie, she's

269
00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:17.000
not it's not her arm and her
hands are still warm. I don't know

270
00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:18.599
if that means. But it's blood
every I mean, I know, but

271
00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:21.880
you can't. And the knife is
still inside of her? How far?

272
00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:23.519
I can't you see how far it
went in? It looks pretty deep.

273
00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:30.000
Okay, looks three inutes a long
nights. Don't touch any don't touch anything.

274
00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:33.440
I'm don't sucking anything. I can't
believe it though. Wait, it

275
00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:37.480
was just youre with her. We
yeah, we're the only one here.

276
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:40.519
And she ran in the door.
You said at lant to shut No.

277
00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:44.599
No. I I went downstairs to
work out, and when I came back

278
00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:48.319
up, the door was lashed like
it wasn't you know, it wasn't like

279
00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:51.079
it, you know, it was
like locked from the inside. And I'm

280
00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:56.359
yelling and I saw it was no, no, no, no no,

281
00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:00.759
it's no sign of a break in, no noting. I'm breaking it off.

282
00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:03.720
There will be when you get here. Tord to break the flash,

283
00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:07.920
but to get in, okay,
rock And this is a house, right,

284
00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:14.839
it's an apartment. Oh my god, Oh my god. All right,

285
00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:22.279
thank you? What did you think
about that? That was a That

286
00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:26.519
was a experience. That was a
lot. He was kind of all over

287
00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:30.200
the place, Yeah, kind of, I almost I mean it's it sounds

288
00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:33.680
like a horrible situation. But I
almost laughed out loud when he said she

289
00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:38.319
fell on a knife, Like that
just seems like kind of a ridiculous thing

290
00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:41.279
to say. So I should tell
you how her body was found. Okay,

291
00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:45.240
Yeah, she was in the kitchen
on the floor, but she was

292
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:51.000
like her back was against the cabinets, almost like she had kind of slid

293
00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:55.079
down the cabinet. Okay, And
so she was sitting up upright ish,

294
00:20:55.160 --> 00:20:59.480
I think she was. I don't
think she was slumped over. So how

295
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:02.359
could he not see the knife?
That was the other thing I was going

296
00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:06.079
to say, is like he acted
like it just seemed weird that he would

297
00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:08.400
not have seen a knife sticking out
of her chest. Yeah. Times he

298
00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:14.240
seems unemotional and detached, and other
times he seems, you know, like

299
00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:17.319
Elle, Ellie, are you.
Yeah. So I don't know what to

300
00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:19.839
make of it. It seems suspicious
to me. Yeah, it seems very

301
00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:22.519
strange. I mean the fact that
we know that he called people prior to

302
00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:26.960
calling nine one one. I'm sorry, if your uncle's attorney or not you,

303
00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:32.519
I wouldn't hesitate, yeah to call
nine one one if I found you.

304
00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:36.240
Let alone. It like someone I
didn't know on the street. I

305
00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:38.799
would call nine one one if someone
yeah, it's help and maybe he'll cover

306
00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:42.839
this. But did he have an
explanation for why he made those calls before

307
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:47.079
he called nine one one? I
don't believe. So, yeah, that's

308
00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:52.039
really strange. So Ellen was declared
dad at six forty pm. She was

309
00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:56.240
stabbed twenty times. The stab wounds
were of a varying depth and length.

310
00:21:56.480 --> 00:22:00.720
Wait, how many times would she
stabbed? Twenty? Oh, it's possible

311
00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:03.880
that two knives were used. There
were ten stab wounds to her chest and

312
00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:08.680
abdomen, and ten stab wounds to
her neck and scalp. The length of

313
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:14.880
the wounds were from point two centimeters
to ten centimeters, so some of them

314
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:19.079
were just like pricks. Most of
the wounds were superficial. Of the twenty

315
00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:23.599
wounds, only four were considered severe, the two to her knack, one

316
00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:27.400
to her stomach, and the final
wound to her chest. One of the

317
00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:32.240
wounds to the back of her head
went deep into her brain. Really,

318
00:22:32.599 --> 00:22:37.640
a cutcoat ten inch knife was lodged
in Ellen's chest. I'm going to show

319
00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:40.599
you a picture of the knife real
quick. Okay, So I think we

320
00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:42.880
own that knife, right, we
own that knife. Yeah, exact same

321
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:47.880
knife. It looks exactly like ten
inches long. The entire length of the

322
00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:51.039
knife, not just the blade,
is probably about half of the length of

323
00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:55.680
the blade, I would guess is
maybe five inches. Why don't wean measure

324
00:22:55.680 --> 00:23:03.720
it all? Right? Well,
you're right back. So we took a

325
00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:07.799
little field trip to our kitchen,
and I think that is the same.

326
00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.359
It's ten inches long and the blade
is about what four and a half inches?

327
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:17.799
Yeah, it's almost close. Yeah, it's yeah. And so and

328
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:22.400
you said that that was in her
chest like about three inches, and so

329
00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:25.960
the knife had to be sticking out
at least seven inches out of her chest.

330
00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:30.680
So it'd be pretty unthinkable that you
wouldn't see a seven inch you know,

331
00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:37.519
hilt of a knife sticking out of
someone's chest, right, And I

332
00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:41.359
mean side note, we've hit I've
had this knife for over thirty years.

333
00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:44.240
You've had the knife for a very
the knife. You've had a knife longer

334
00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:47.599
than you've had me, yes,
which is which is kind of a very

335
00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:49.920
good knife. You love this knife, and I actually don't love the knife,

336
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:52.200
but you love the knife. Like
if we go to cut something,

337
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:56.680
you're always going to grab this knife
first. Yeah, so I guess we're

338
00:23:56.680 --> 00:24:00.680
going to do a little commercial for
Cutco knives here because you've never done anything

339
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:04.200
to it. And yeah, we
should just describe the blade too. It's

340
00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:11.799
a serrated knife. Yeah, I
don't really know how to describe the blade.

341
00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:15.319
Okay, Well, I mean it's
very pointy on the end. Ye

342
00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:18.319
as tend to be, well,
but not all of them. I mean

343
00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:22.480
some of them are a little blunter
like this, because it's super pointy,

344
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:25.640
right, you know, I could
see it being able to and it's not

345
00:24:25.720 --> 00:24:29.960
very wide. It's only like maybe
what half inch or three quarters inch wide

346
00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:34.680
at its widest part, and imagine
taking it, I'm afraid to, like,

347
00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:38.720
you know, that would be quite
a bit of force to get it

348
00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:44.759
into your brain, to get it
into your brains. Yeah, it's just

349
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:47.480
horrifying to think of. I'm never
gonna look at that knife the same way.

350
00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:52.079
A. Yeah. So Ellen had
been making a fruit salad and it

351
00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:56.000
all the fruit remained on the counter
undisturbed, which is kind of strange.

352
00:24:56.440 --> 00:25:00.160
Yeah, like you're gonna stop making
a fruit salad in the middle and then

353
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:06.799
yeah, no sign of forced entry. It had been snowing and so they

354
00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:10.279
were on the sixth floor and they
had a balcony, but the snow is

355
00:25:10.359 --> 00:25:15.839
undisturbed. In twenty nineteen, a
pathologist examined some tissue that was saved from

356
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:22.039
Ellen's autopsy and determined that some of
the wounds were received post mortem, specifically

357
00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:26.400
a stab wound in the cervical vertebrae. The wound didn't bleed, meaning her

358
00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:33.519
heart had stopped pumping. So so
I'm wondering where you're going to get to

359
00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:37.839
the part where they rule it's a
suicide. Like so far, this does

360
00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:41.599
not sound at all like a suicide
to me. It's a tough case.

361
00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:48.799
There are there is evidence on both
sides, evidence supporting suicide and evidence supporting

362
00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:53.799
homicide. We know the final stab
wound Ellen received was to her chest because

363
00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:59.640
that's where the knife was embedded,
making it unlikely her death could have been

364
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:03.880
a suicide. In my opinion,
you said there was a there might have

365
00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:08.200
been a second knife involved. That's
what some people have said because of you

366
00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:14.279
know, the varying length of the
wounds, and some wounds, I think

367
00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:18.720
the autopsy report says that someone from
left to right and some went from right

368
00:26:18.759 --> 00:26:23.680
to left, and it's possible that
some were done with a left hand and

369
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:26.559
some were done with a right hand. Was there a second knife found?

370
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:32.480
A second knife was not found,
but this knife came from their knife lolock.

371
00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:37.039
They had other knives. There was
no suicide note, and Ellen was

372
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:41.039
very close to her parents. It's
hard to believe she would kill herself and

373
00:26:41.079 --> 00:26:45.039
not explain to them why she needed
to take her whole life. Ellen had

374
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:48.079
no defensive wounds and there was no
sign of a struggle. Wounds seemed to

375
00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:52.599
be aggressive and quick. Her DNA
was the only DNA found on the knife

376
00:26:52.640 --> 00:27:00.319
and her clothing. The autopsy revealed
that Ellen had eleven bruises and varying ages

377
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:03.240
of resolution on her abdomen, legs, and arms on the right side of

378
00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:08.680
her body. They were noted by
doctor Marlon Osborne, assistant medical examiner.

379
00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:14.799
There were also marks on her neck
internally but not externally. Do you know

380
00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:18.839
why that could be? No,
Because sometimes, like if you're strangling someone,

381
00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:22.920
like she wasn't strangled, but if
someone had been, like had their

382
00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:26.480
hands around her neck, it takes
a while for the bruises to come to

383
00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:32.559
the surface. Okay, And the
fact that she had eleven bruises on her

384
00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:37.680
body of varying degrees of resolution.
What do you make of that? I

385
00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:45.920
don't know. I mean it's indicative
of she was either really clumsy or someone

386
00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:49.599
was abusing her. So they happened
at different times, right exactly. They

387
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:55.079
didn't happen on January twenty six.
I'm a little slow, but no,

388
00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:57.599
no, no, it's okay,
it's it's a lot. Trace amounts of

389
00:27:57.640 --> 00:28:03.000
ambient were found in the toxicology report, and klonopin was also found in her

390
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:07.000
blood, but not in abnormal amounts, so amounts that they would expect,

391
00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:12.119
so she wasn't overdosing at anything.
Doctor Osborne first ruled her death a homicide,

392
00:28:12.599 --> 00:28:17.319
but a month later changed the manner
of death to suicide. He said

393
00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:22.200
it was because she was on anti
anxiety medication, but he changed his ruling

394
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:26.920
after meeting with the police receiving pressure
from them. He also believed that the

395
00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:30.960
doorman was with Sam at the time
that he broke the door down. Suicide

396
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:34.920
by stabbing is rare, but not
unheard of. It occurs in one to

397
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:37.759
three percent of suicides. I was
going to ask you about that. It's

398
00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:42.200
the only one I know of is
Elliott Smith, the singer. He supposedly

399
00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:47.079
committed suicide by stabbing himself in the
chest, And there's always been a lot

400
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:49.160
of questions about that particular case,
and to me, it always seems like,

401
00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:53.480
you know, I've never seriously thought
of committing suicide, but that seems

402
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:57.079
like the last way I wouldn't do
it if I was going to was Elliot

403
00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:00.640
Smith was at one stab wound.
I want to say it might have been

404
00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:03.880
more than one. Wasn't twenty,
but it might have been two or three.

405
00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:10.759
That is really horrible. So the
doorman not being there when Sam broke

406
00:29:10.759 --> 00:29:15.279
down the door is significant, Yeah, I mean because it's really only Sam

407
00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:18.079
who said that the door is latched, and so if nobody else was there

408
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:22.119
to see it, it might not
have been latched. Yeah, for sure.

409
00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:25.279
And I when I first heard about
this case, I was like,

410
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:27.599
Oh, that's so mysterious, Like
how did someone get into killer because it

411
00:29:27.640 --> 00:29:33.599
doesn't appear to but yeah, maybe
the door wasn't latched. According to the

412
00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:38.000
Pennsylvania Attorney General, there had allegedly
been searches on Ellen's laptop in December of

413
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:44.839
twenty ten for suffocation, suicide methods, sex fantasy death, Zoloft prozac,

414
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:51.039
depression, bath death, euthanasia,
and painless suicide, which they said bolstered

415
00:29:51.079 --> 00:29:55.599
the ruling of suicide. But when
the FBI crime Lab searched the hard drive

416
00:29:55.599 --> 00:30:00.759
in twenty eleven, they could find
no such searches. An independent investigation of

417
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:03.240
the hard drive confirmedness as well.
So wait a minute, who said there

418
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:10.440
were those searches? The Pennsylvania Attorney
General. That's very strange. It is

419
00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:14.319
really strange. I read something about
phantom searches, which I don't really understand.

420
00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:19.640
That part is really confusing. And
did Sam and Ellen have separate laptops

421
00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:23.079
or did they share a laptop by
chance? I believe Ellen had two laptops

422
00:30:23.079 --> 00:30:26.480
and Sam had one. Okay,
so it would be unlikely that he would

423
00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:30.599
be doing searches on her laptop unless
he wanted, but not really that unlikely.

424
00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:36.799
Although I would never touch her electronic
I think we're weirdly private. Yeah,

425
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:40.319
I don't know. Would you do
you have searched on mine? I

426
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:41.359
don't think I ever touch yours,
though, yeah, I saw you.

427
00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:48.799
So when the police arrived on the
night of January twenty six, their cursory

428
00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:53.119
investigation led them to believe that Ellen's
death was a suicide because there was no

429
00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:59.519
forced entry, no signs of struggle, and no defensive wounds. Nothing was

430
00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:03.039
stolen from the home. But they
did a really poor job of investigating the

431
00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:08.519
scene and questioning Sam and others.
The garbage wasn't even checked, lumin all

432
00:31:08.599 --> 00:31:11.480
wasn't used, so we don't know
if the killer might have cleaned up the

433
00:31:11.880 --> 00:31:15.799
crime scene. No forced entry thing
is meaningless to me, if I mean,

434
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:18.839
if it was Sam that did it, of course, there was no

435
00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:23.640
forced entry and no sign of a
struggle. He was engaged to be married

436
00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:26.119
to her. He could just walk
up to her and she wouldn't think anything

437
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:30.240
of it. So still a little
bit dubious about the So you think he

438
00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:34.839
stabbed her in the back of the
neck potentially, That's what I think too,

439
00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:37.599
Yeah, I mean that could be
the first. We always give her

440
00:31:37.880 --> 00:31:41.279
our cards a way way too quick. We're supposed to wait to the end.

441
00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:45.519
I mean, we're supposed to talk
about the investigation. Du But no,

442
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:47.759
we're always like, yeah, but
he's guilty. Yeah, I've just

443
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:52.400
heard very little to lead me to
the conclusion of suicide so far. Okay,

444
00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:56.359
well we'll see if we can change
your mind. There really wasn't a

445
00:31:56.400 --> 00:32:01.000
lot of blood either, but a
lot of Ellen's injuries were internal, so

446
00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:07.240
she bled internally. The police were
only in the apartment for about an hour

447
00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:12.640
and never declared it a crime scene. The apartment was professionally clean the next

448
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:16.599
day by crime scene cleaners, destroying
potential evidence. You believe that, no,

449
00:32:16.759 --> 00:32:21.240
I can't. Video surveillance of the
building was searched and there was no

450
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:27.599
unexpected or suspicious people entering the building. Neighbors were interviewed and didn't recall hearing

451
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:30.119
any fighting inside the apartment, but
they did hear Sam yelling trying to get

452
00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:35.000
an apartment after his workout. Okay, so I've broken this down. I

453
00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:40.240
have some evidence pointing to suicide and
some pointing to homicide. So some evidence

454
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:45.240
pointing towards suicide. Ellen had been
struggling with mental health. We know that

455
00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:50.160
for sure. She began feeling overwhelming
anxiety. She said it was due to

456
00:32:50.200 --> 00:32:53.720
work. She had began seeing a
psychiatrist, which we know who had prescribed

457
00:32:53.720 --> 00:33:00.359
her medication, but both of those
medications list suicidal thoughts as apostle of all

458
00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:06.160
side effect. There weren't any signs
of a struggle defensive wounds. The crime

459
00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:08.799
scene was pretty clean and no blood
was tracked anywhere else, which I think

460
00:33:08.839 --> 00:33:15.119
is kind of significant. And Sam
was seen on camera going downstairs to work

461
00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:22.680
out and no one saw any blood
on. Ellen is young and healthy.

462
00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:27.680
She would have fought back. Yeah, but if the first wound was to

463
00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:30.119
the back of her head, maybe
she had some sort of paralysis. Right,

464
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:35.480
And I said Sam wasn't seen with
any blood when he went to work

465
00:33:35.480 --> 00:33:38.240
out, but it was kind of
a greeny camera. But still he would

466
00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:43.920
have had the clean if he'd him
he could have showered in the gym and

467
00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:46.880
changed clothes and thrown away the bloody
clothes. Remember the police didn't check the

468
00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:52.599
garbage. Okay, So still we
were always going off on our side conversations.

469
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:58.039
The door was lashed, Could Sam
or someone else have locked it from

470
00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:00.359
the outside, Yeah, I know, And maybe it wasn't Seam, Maybe

471
00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:04.880
it could have been someone else.
The only DNA on the knife was hers,

472
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:09.480
but maybe there was another knife that
it was disposed of when Sam left

473
00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:15.360
the apartment. The searches on Ellen's
computer, which those were later kind of

474
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:20.840
disproved anyway. Yeah, so that's
really what I have for you and how

475
00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:24.880
it could have been a suicide.
Evidence pointing towards homicide. The wounds to

476
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:30.559
her neck were deep and would have
required a great deal of force. And

477
00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:34.360
if she was, you know,
had stabbed herself all these times, I

478
00:34:34.360 --> 00:34:39.000
would think with diminishing strength. Yeah
exactly. I don't think she would have

479
00:34:39.000 --> 00:34:43.440
been able to keep going. I
wouldn't think so either. And pain,

480
00:34:43.719 --> 00:34:45.400
and I mean, the pain must
have been great. I can't even imagine.

481
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:51.280
The Greenberg family have hired many experts
who don't think it's possible she committed

482
00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:55.400
suicide. Sam found her on the
floor with her back against the kitchen cabinets.

483
00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:59.599
But it looked like the body could
have been moved because there was kind

484
00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:02.840
of like drag marks in the blood. But it could have been her too,

485
00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:07.079
Like Ellen could have still been struggling. Yeah, yeah, she could

486
00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:12.159
have tried to be getting away from
her killer. The knife flock in the

487
00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:17.559
Greenbird's kitchen was overturned on its side, potentially indicating some sort of struggle happened.

488
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:20.719
Okay, you know we have a
knife flock in the kitchen. It's

489
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:22.920
pretty heavy. Yeah, that'd be
hard to overturn. It would be hard

490
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:27.039
to overturn unless you were grabbing it. Really quickly or trying to pull a

491
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:31.119
knife out really quickly. Right.
Yeah. A dried blood drip on Alan's

492
00:35:31.159 --> 00:35:37.119
face suggested her body may have been
moved as well. She had like a

493
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:38.920
drip. I think it went from
her nose to her ear, and she

494
00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:44.199
was sitting upright, okay, so
gravity would have forced that drip to go

495
00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:46.800
down, but instead it was horizontal. Okay, but he but in any

496
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:51.199
case, Sam moved her onto the
floor and laid her on her back too,

497
00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:53.159
right, so she could have still
been but I guess it was a

498
00:35:53.239 --> 00:35:57.239
drop of blood. I don't think
he did move her body. No.

499
00:35:57.400 --> 00:35:59.599
One. In the nine one month
call, he said he had her laying

500
00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:01.199
flat. He said that, but
I don't think he did. Okay,

501
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:05.000
So we didn't talk about this when
we played the nine one one call.

502
00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:07.800
But my impression of Sam on the
nine and one one call, he was

503
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:10.480
kind of like, oh, I
don't want to Oh she just looks so

504
00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:15.920
so gross. Again about the nine
one one call too, I forgot to

505
00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:20.519
say it earlier, but it seemed
very all very narcissistic to me, Like

506
00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:23.800
he wasn't like, oh my my
love of my life is dead, or

507
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:30.079
you know, she's hurt it just
seemed like he was hesitant to do CPR

508
00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:31.880
on her, and like, oh, I have to, don't I right,

509
00:36:32.360 --> 00:36:36.719
that was all kind of strange to
me too. We have a couple

510
00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:38.719
pieces of evidence that I don't really
know what to do with. They kind

511
00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:43.840
of fall in the middle. There
weren't any wounds to Ellen's hands, And

512
00:36:43.880 --> 00:36:47.079
if you're stabbing yourself over and over, you'd likely have some injury to your

513
00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:52.000
hands, would you. I think
you would, Yeah, because especially like

514
00:36:52.039 --> 00:36:57.280
the ones and you're in a weak
and state, you're in pain. I

515
00:36:57.320 --> 00:37:00.880
would think the knife would be slipping, you would have kept blood on your

516
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:05.679
hands. Yeah. And the shallow
wounds are hard to explain too, because

517
00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:08.960
some of them are just barely knicks
and some of them are pretty deep.

518
00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:13.360
I could sort of see that pointing
to suicide. If you were going to

519
00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:15.880
commit suicide by stabbing yourself, like
maybe you would, you know, be

520
00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:20.079
kind of like testing the waters or
seeing like if you could do it,

521
00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:23.119
or you know, I don't know. It just seems like that would potentially

522
00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:28.199
be something that could result. But
some of them on her abdomen were deep,

523
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:30.440
and then there were some shallow ones, and the same with the back

524
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:32.280
of her neck. It seemed like
maybe you're right, you would be kind

525
00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:36.400
of poking, kind of poking.
But then I think once you started going,

526
00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:38.960
I don't know, it's hard,
so hard to imagine. Now we're

527
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:45.440
going to go over the timeline pretty
in depth here, all right. So

528
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:51.039
January twenty six, twenty eleven,
is the day of Ellen's death. At

529
00:37:51.039 --> 00:37:54.360
one twenty six pm, Ellen gets
gas in her car. She left school,

530
00:37:54.440 --> 00:37:58.480
she went, She goes to get
gas. At two thirties she calls

531
00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:00.599
a restaurant. We don't know why. If she called the restaurant to make

532
00:38:00.760 --> 00:38:05.239
confirm or cancel a reservation. It
was snowing, so maybe they had a

533
00:38:05.239 --> 00:38:08.960
reservation for dinner and they decided not
to not to risk it. At three

534
00:38:09.079 --> 00:38:15.800
forty seven pm, Ellen sends her
final text. The last computer activity is

535
00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:20.400
four forty six, and I believe
she was doing some wedding stuff on her

536
00:38:20.440 --> 00:38:25.079
computer. At four fifty Sam goes
down to the gym. Sam exits to

537
00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:29.639
the gym at five twenty six pm. He must have some sort of keycard,

538
00:38:29.639 --> 00:38:35.840
because we have the exact times.
At six fourteen Sam calls came Ian

539
00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:42.159
Schwartzman, So we have forty five
minutes here of him trying to get into

540
00:38:42.199 --> 00:38:45.360
the apartment. Okay, it's a
long time. I think that it Well,

541
00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:47.519
you know, he's going downstairs trying
to talk to the doorman, and

542
00:38:47.559 --> 00:38:51.960
he's you know, calling and texting, and I don't know what he's There's

543
00:38:51.960 --> 00:38:54.199
no cameras in the hallway to the
apartment, so I don't know if he's

544
00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:57.800
just sitting on the floor in front
of the door trying to wait for Ellen

545
00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:00.000
to Lettison. Still seems like a
long time because I I don't imagine it

546
00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:05.239
would be that hard to really break
that latch, and if you were really

547
00:39:05.320 --> 00:39:07.519
worried about someone, you could do
that pretty quickly. I would think,

548
00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:13.760
well, and here's another problem I
have, Like again, can only relate

549
00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:19.239
it to our relationship. If I
think you're stuck somewhere, I'm not going

550
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:21.440
to try to break the door down. If I know, I would call

551
00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:24.440
nine one one then like, hey, my can't I'm not getting a response

552
00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:28.440
from my fiancee. I think there's
a problem. You know, I can't

553
00:39:28.440 --> 00:39:30.679
get into the door, right.
I think I would just break the door

554
00:39:30.679 --> 00:39:32.440
down because I think it would actually
be really easy. I think those latches

555
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:36.519
are not that they're not that tough. It would be, you know,

556
00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:38.679
not that hard to do. Well. Now I'm really curious. No,

557
00:39:39.159 --> 00:39:43.159
I want to see this next time
we're in a hotel room. You'll have

558
00:39:43.159 --> 00:39:49.239
to tell. So, okay,
six fourteen he called came in, and

559
00:39:49.480 --> 00:39:52.719
at six twenty six, Uncle James, the attorney, calls him back.

560
00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:59.199
So twelve minutes of the lapsed.
I'm not sure when Sam gains re entry

561
00:39:59.239 --> 00:40:07.280
into the but sometime between six fourteen
and six thirty that was before he called

562
00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:13.679
his cousin. I'm not positive.
Okay. So at six thirty one,

563
00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:20.079
Sam calls nine one one and emergency
responders are dispatched at six thirty three.

564
00:40:20.599 --> 00:40:23.519
Camyan Schwartzman arrives on scene at six
thirty four, so they must have been

565
00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:30.280
really close, and emergency responders are
there at six thirty six. At some

566
00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:36.880
point Uncle James is there too,
So we have Sam, Camyan Schwartzman,

567
00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:39.840
and Uncle James are all present.
Uncle James is a former prosecutor and at

568
00:40:39.880 --> 00:40:45.639
the time he was the vice chairman
of the Board of Directors of the Southeastern

569
00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:52.039
Pennsylvania Transportation Authority, or SEPTA.
He has been described as quote politically important

570
00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:54.360
in the city of Philadelphia. At
the time of this writing, he is

571
00:40:54.400 --> 00:41:00.800
the President Judge of the Pennsylvania Court
of Judicial Discipline, which just means he

572
00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:05.599
oversees I think judges. He's an
important guy in the legal system. Yeah,

573
00:41:05.719 --> 00:41:08.159
so I have to say I took
all of this from Gavin Fish.

574
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:15.159
If you know anything about the Ellen
Greenberg case, Gavin Fish is your guy.

575
00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:19.719
He has done a ton of research, he has tons of documents,

576
00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:24.519
he has timelines, he has he
did re enactments. So go to Gavin

577
00:41:24.559 --> 00:41:30.199
Fish. He's a YouTuber. He
does a fabulous job, really great research.

578
00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:36.519
He's really dedicated a lot of time
and resources to this case. So

579
00:41:36.559 --> 00:41:40.840
I give him all the credit for
the timeline. So definitely go check out

580
00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:45.039
Gavin Fish does it, does a
lot of really good YouTube videos. He's

581
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:51.039
seems like a great guy. Cool. Ellen Greenberg is pronounced dead at six

582
00:41:51.320 --> 00:41:57.880
forty Sometime later in the evening,
Sam gold for Goldberg has taken and handcuffs

583
00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:01.280
by the police for questioning and Uncle
James is there with him. The next

584
00:42:01.320 --> 00:42:05.760
day, January twenty seventh, Ellen
Greenberg is taken to the office of me

585
00:42:06.119 --> 00:42:10.079
of the Medical Examiner and the early
morning for autopsy. They were sure not

586
00:42:10.239 --> 00:42:15.079
to remove the knife from her chest, so it's still in there. An

587
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:21.840
autopsy is performed by doctor Marion Osborne
at nine am and January twenty seventh.

588
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:27.239
Sometime same day, Uncle James calls
Melissa Ware, who is the building manager

589
00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:31.079
for the Venice Lofts, and asks
if he can enter Ellen and Sam's apartment

590
00:42:31.239 --> 00:42:37.360
to get a suit for Sam for
Ellen's funeral. Melissa calls the police seeking

591
00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:39.840
permission, and they tell her that
the crime scene has been released, so

592
00:42:39.880 --> 00:42:45.760
it's fine. That's crazy to me. Crazy. The police also tell her

593
00:42:45.800 --> 00:42:50.760
that she can call crime scene clean
up to clean up the apartment before Uncle

594
00:42:50.840 --> 00:42:54.639
James and the clean up clue arrive. Melissa, smartest person in the room,

595
00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:59.920
makes a video of the apartment.
She's smarter than the police. Yeah,

596
00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:06.360
so James. Uncle James gets there
and he removes Ellen's cell phone,

597
00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:10.880
three laptops, and other items from
the apartment after it's been cleaned. I'm

598
00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:15.599
just I can't believe that the police
wouldn't have taken the laptop and the phone.

599
00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:20.519
It's mind boggling. Yeah, so
that again. Same day, Marlin

600
00:43:21.079 --> 00:43:27.159
Osborne creates a draft autopsy report with
manner of death of homicide and police apply

601
00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:30.039
for a search warrant. So at
this point it's homicide and they apply for

602
00:43:30.039 --> 00:43:35.559
a search warrant, but they've already
released the crime scene. Yeah. Okay,

603
00:43:35.880 --> 00:43:42.360
well I think this is why they
pressured doctor Osborne. Yeah, because

604
00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:46.960
they're like, we don't have any
we don't have any evidence. January twenty

605
00:43:46.960 --> 00:43:51.800
eighth, at ten fifty one am, the search warrant is executed the police.

606
00:43:51.800 --> 00:43:55.559
He's clothing, blood samples, a
diamond ring, latent prince, and

607
00:43:55.719 --> 00:44:01.480
a rubber made container of unknown contents. On January twenty ninth, cell phones

608
00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:08.559
and laptops are retrieved by police from
uncle James Schwartzman. On March third,

609
00:44:08.599 --> 00:44:14.920
twenty eleven, Marlon Osborne changed Ellen's
manner of death to suicide. About five

610
00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:19.599
weeks later. Okay, I didn't
tell you earlier, but Ellen wasn't wearing

611
00:44:19.599 --> 00:44:24.000
her engagement ring. Her engagement ring
was found in the bedroom on her bedside

612
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:30.320
table. Okay, what do you
think that means? I don't know.

613
00:44:31.119 --> 00:44:35.320
I mean we're going to wrap it
up and then we'll have some discussion and

614
00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:39.239
we'll remind me to talk about that. The Greenberg's Josh and Sandy are still

615
00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:43.800
mourning the loss of Ellen, but
refused to stop fighting until they get justice

616
00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:47.440
for Ellen. They emphatically believe it
was a murder. Sandy Greenberg said,

617
00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:52.639
quote, my daughter didn't commit suicide. We grieved her life for years.

618
00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:55.519
We just want Ellen's name cleared.
She did not do this to herself and

619
00:44:55.599 --> 00:45:00.039
she deserved justice and we want closure. They try to close our doors,

620
00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:04.760
but we always find another way in. We're never giving up end quote.

621
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:09.480
In October twenty nineteen, Joe Padraza, the Greenberg's attorney, filed a civil

622
00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:15.880
lawsuit on their behalf against the Philadelphia
Medical Examiner's Office and the pathologist who conducted

623
00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:21.559
the autopsy, trying to get them
to change Ellen's manner of death from suicide

624
00:45:21.559 --> 00:45:25.760
to murder or even undetermined. Ellen's
parents, Josh and Sandy, have fought

625
00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:30.719
valiantly for their daughter for the past
twelve years. Ellen was an only child

626
00:45:30.800 --> 00:45:35.119
and her death was and continues to
be devastating to them. They've spared no

627
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:39.320
expense in trying to prove Allen's death
was not a suicide. They hired Cyril

628
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:45.400
Wecht, a forensic pathologist from Pittsburgh
who worked on the assassination of JFK.

629
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:52.000
He also worked on other high profile
cases such as Elvis Lacy Peterson and Rebecca's

630
00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:54.239
Howe. I've heard his name,
well, we've taught. I think we've

631
00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:59.960
talked about I think he might have
done the Jeffrey McDonald. That doesn't mean

632
00:46:00.039 --> 00:46:04.320
that he doesn't know how to.
It wasn't an agist comment, but I

633
00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:09.840
sure was. His conclusion was that
Ellen's death was quote strongly suspicious of homicide

634
00:46:10.119 --> 00:46:15.639
unquote. He points to the neck
wounds especially as evidence. Quote I don't

635
00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:20.119
know how they wrote this off as
a suicide end quote. The Greenbergs also

636
00:46:20.119 --> 00:46:23.440
consulted with doctor Wayne Ross in twenty
seventeen, who said the stab wounds to

637
00:46:23.480 --> 00:46:29.719
the brain would cause Allen quote severe
pain, cranial nerve dysfunction, and traumatic

638
00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:35.280
brain signs, as well as numbness, tingling, an irregular heartbeat. I

639
00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:38.440
mean, if you stab your brain, like if you get I think I

640
00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:43.599
don't know motor motor activity. Sure, it depends on what part of your

641
00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:45.679
brain, but yeah, I would
I would think that would be pretty debilitating

642
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:52.719
immediately. Famous forensic scientist doctor Henley
Henry Lee, known for his work in

643
00:46:52.199 --> 00:46:57.320
the show Staircase. It wasn't that. Yeah, I mean these guys,

644
00:46:57.360 --> 00:47:01.480
this is yeah all star crew here. Henry Lee, known for his work

645
00:47:01.519 --> 00:47:06.639
in the Jeanbene Ramsey and oj Simpson
cases, reviewed the case and said,

646
00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:10.679
quote the number and types of wounds
and blood stained patterns observed are consistent with

647
00:47:10.920 --> 00:47:16.800
a homicide scene end quote. Josh
and Sandy hired a company called Biomax,

648
00:47:16.840 --> 00:47:22.639
who developed a new technology called photogametry, which she used the data from the

649
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:28.599
medical examiner's report to create three D
graphics illustrating Ellen's wounds. The graphics show

650
00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:31.840
the number, angle, width,
and depth of the stab wounds. Attorney

651
00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:37.400
for the greenberg S Joe Pedraza,
said it's a critical and powerful tool for

652
00:47:37.480 --> 00:47:40.760
investigators. He told forty eight Hours. Quote, In this way, you're

653
00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:45.400
able to see the two really lethal
wounds in the back of Ellen's head.

654
00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:50.360
You can tell that it's very improbable
that Ellen could inflict the wounds from behind.

655
00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:54.039
She would not be able to generate
enough force to self inflict. End

656
00:47:54.159 --> 00:48:00.480
quote. Sounds convincing to me,
I know. In August of twenty twenty

657
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:05.760
two, the DA's office in Chester
County, Pennsylvania, announced it will review

658
00:48:05.800 --> 00:48:10.599
Ellen's case after the Pennsylvania Attorney General
General's office referred the case to them.

659
00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:15.400
The case is being reviewed by an
investigator and a prosecutor. The AG's office

660
00:48:15.400 --> 00:48:20.639
released a statement saying it could no
longer review the case because of an unspecified

661
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:25.960
quote appearance of a conflict of interest
end quote. In October of twenty twenty

662
00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:30.480
two, the Greenberg's filed another civil
suit against members of the Medical Examiner's Office,

663
00:48:30.519 --> 00:48:36.400
the Philadelphia Police Department, and the
District Attorney's office, seeking monetary damages.

664
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:40.039
Quote. The family is looking for
a manner of death designation other than

665
00:48:40.119 --> 00:48:45.000
suicide so that a thorough investigation that
should have been done can be done.

666
00:48:45.400 --> 00:48:50.280
End quote. Their attorney, Joe
Pedraza told forty eight Hours. By the

667
00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:53.239
way, forty eight Hours has really
I thought their episode was great on this

668
00:48:53.320 --> 00:49:00.159
case. Sam Goldberg has never spoken
publicly about Ellen's death. He currently lives

669
00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:06.760
in New York City with his wife
and two children. So that's the story

670
00:49:06.760 --> 00:49:12.519
of Alan Greenberg. Okay, that's
a lot huh, that is a lotting.

671
00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:15.119
I hope I did it justice.
I kind of threw this together and

672
00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:17.719
I'm a little bit of a mess
today. I hope it was coherent.

673
00:49:19.079 --> 00:49:22.639
I think it was. It's a
fascinating case, and I'm really boy,

674
00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:29.639
it's just I don't I don't see
the suicide angle at like. There just

675
00:49:29.679 --> 00:49:32.719
seems like there's nothing that points to
suicide or very little that points to suicide,

676
00:49:32.760 --> 00:49:37.559
and so much that points to homicide
that it's just baffling to me.

677
00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:42.679
The way the police acted and the
conclusion of the medical examiner, it makes

678
00:49:42.679 --> 00:49:47.360
me wonder if there was something nefarious
going on with the uncle because he was

679
00:49:47.400 --> 00:49:52.559
like very powerful in you know,
the justice system. I'm going to defend

680
00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:55.239
the uncle just for a second.
I don't. I don't really know anything.

681
00:49:55.280 --> 00:49:59.679
I have no reason to say that
other than I don't think he did

682
00:49:59.679 --> 00:50:05.360
anything wrong. I think the fact
that Sam called him, or he called

683
00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:08.960
Sam so quickly and that he was
there by his side is odd. But

684
00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:13.400
I think that he was just there
to protect his nephew. I don't think

685
00:50:13.400 --> 00:50:15.639
that he did anything wrong. I
think he was by his side helping him.

686
00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:19.960
Yeah, I just wonder why they
It just seems like there would be

687
00:50:19.960 --> 00:50:22.960
some reason why they change their ruling
to suicide, and I think it was

688
00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:28.199
the pressure from the police, and
the police did a shoddy invest investigation.

689
00:50:28.360 --> 00:50:31.960
They had no evidence left. Yeah, there are even very few crime scene

690
00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:35.679
photos. Yeah. Well, the
sad thing is, even if they do,

691
00:50:35.800 --> 00:50:39.760
even if the Greenbergs somehow succeed in
getting them to change the ruling there,

692
00:50:39.760 --> 00:50:43.119
how are they going to be able
to investigate it now? Anyway?

693
00:50:43.320 --> 00:50:46.000
Well, that's something I was going
to say coming up here is Yeah,

694
00:50:46.119 --> 00:50:51.719
even if you know, they find
enough evidence to prosecute Sam, I don't

695
00:50:51.719 --> 00:50:55.760
think it would hold up in corn
is just not there a couple of things

696
00:50:55.800 --> 00:51:01.000
I wanted to mention. The door
latch situation. It's been demonstrated that if

697
00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:06.039
you slam a door hard enough that
the lock actually engages on its own,

698
00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:12.960
and it's possible. And the dead
bolt on the door wasn't It wasn't locked.

699
00:51:13.480 --> 00:51:15.400
So that's kind of weird to me, because if you're going to take

700
00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:19.280
the time to latch the door,
you would lock the door as well.

701
00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:22.320
You wouldn't just do one. But
again, this is all according to Sam.

702
00:51:22.039 --> 00:51:25.519
Well, I'm wondering if they had
a fight. Maybe it was a

703
00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:29.760
bad fight. She took her ring
off. You know, they had a

704
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:32.960
fight. She took her ring off, and yeah, he had his Timberlin

705
00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:36.639
boots on. He wasn't really planning
to work out, he just needed to

706
00:51:36.679 --> 00:51:42.519
cool off, and maybe he laughed
and went to the gym. Possibly she

707
00:51:42.559 --> 00:51:45.800
could have committed suicide. Then he
slammed the door, engaging the lock.

708
00:51:45.519 --> 00:51:52.000
Or you could look at it too
as they had a fight and you know,

709
00:51:52.280 --> 00:51:57.480
he grabbed a knife or she grabbed
a knife and he might have strangled.

710
00:51:57.559 --> 00:52:00.960
I mean, we don't We really
don't know. Yeah. The only

711
00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:02.320
other thing I was going to say
is, you know, all of the

712
00:52:02.360 --> 00:52:07.880
things that she was doing leading up
to her death did not seem like someone

713
00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:12.280
who was about to commit suicide,
Like looking at things online about the wedding,

714
00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:15.920
preparing dinner, like making fruit salad
or whatever. It was like,

715
00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:21.480
none of those things seem like something
you would do if you were going to

716
00:52:21.519 --> 00:52:23.320
commit suicide. Maybe an excellent point, and maybe it was a very sudden

717
00:52:23.320 --> 00:52:28.800
decision if she did do it,
but still it just doesn't seem likely spontaneous,

718
00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:31.199
Like that would be a super duper
spontaneous suicide and it happens, but

719
00:52:31.599 --> 00:52:37.039
yeah, you don't really go from
peeling an orange to right stabbing yourself on

720
00:52:37.079 --> 00:52:39.840
the back of the neck. And
the level of drugs in her system were

721
00:52:40.719 --> 00:52:45.760
you know, pretty low. Yeah, she wasn't overdosing anything. It's maddening

722
00:52:45.800 --> 00:52:50.199
case, for sure. Yeah it
is. I can't believe I've never heard

723
00:52:50.199 --> 00:52:52.719
of this before. I'm surprised too. I was for sure that you would

724
00:52:52.719 --> 00:52:55.000
have heard of it. If I
did, I don't remember it, but

725
00:52:55.599 --> 00:52:59.199
it's a sad one. Well,
if you want to take a super deep

726
00:52:59.239 --> 00:53:02.320
dive, like I said, go
to Gavinfish dot com. He's amazing with

727
00:53:02.400 --> 00:53:06.639
his research. I don't know how
he does it, but he's got a

728
00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:10.199
lot of great YouTube videos and just
tons and tons of documents like you wouldn't

729
00:53:10.239 --> 00:53:15.239
believe how many court documents and pictures
and he's got it all over there.

730
00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:19.400
And also I listened to the Prosecutors
podcast. They have a five part series

731
00:53:19.880 --> 00:53:23.280
on this case, and they're so
good over there. Yeah, I've never

732
00:53:23.320 --> 00:53:27.280
listened to them. Well, someone
said that they gave us a shout out,

733
00:53:27.320 --> 00:53:32.679
which I find hard to believe because
they're pretty big and they're they're awesome,

734
00:53:32.800 --> 00:53:36.960
Like really, they really do a
good job calling our listener a liar.

735
00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:38.360
Oh no, no, no,
not at all, not at all.

736
00:53:38.440 --> 00:53:40.960
I just was like when they told
me that, I was like,

737
00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:45.519
so, if anyone does know,
if they did and they know the episode

738
00:53:45.559 --> 00:53:47.559
I'd love to hear it and I'd
love to thank them. Yeah, that

739
00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:54.840
would be a huge, huge for
little podcast like us. But anyway,

740
00:53:54.920 --> 00:54:00.400
lastly, there is a petition on
change dot org And if you don't mind,

741
00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:05.000
I'm gonna have you read this because
I am just so emotional about this

742
00:54:05.079 --> 00:54:07.880
case and I don't want to cry. So it's kind of long, but

743
00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:13.239
if you just want to read it
real fast. Ellen Greenberg was murdered by

744
00:54:13.280 --> 00:54:16.239
way of twenty stab wounds, with
ten alone to the back of Ellen's neck.

745
00:54:16.760 --> 00:54:21.679
While the city has since taken the
view these wounds were quote superficial,

746
00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:25.519
they include a deep gash in her
scalp, a stab wound through her vertebrae

747
00:54:25.679 --> 00:54:30.559
to the spinal cord, and another
at the base of her skull into her

748
00:54:30.559 --> 00:54:35.800
brain. After initially ruling Ellen's death
to be a homicide, the Philadelphia Medical

749
00:54:35.800 --> 00:54:40.880
Examiner's Office, at the insistence of
the Philadelphia Police, suspiciously reversed itself weeks

750
00:54:40.960 --> 00:54:47.239
later and declared Ellen's death to be
a suicide. Top forensic pathologists all agree

751
00:54:47.280 --> 00:54:52.519
the case is highly suspicious of murder. In fact, the city's own neuropathologist,

752
00:54:52.599 --> 00:54:58.800
based on her own exam of Ellen's
spinal column injury testified the wound was

753
00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:04.039
consistent with Ellen being stabbed after she
was already dead, which rules out any

754
00:55:04.079 --> 00:55:09.679
possibility that Ellen stabbed herself. A
suicide ruling not only represents a misclassification of

755
00:55:09.719 --> 00:55:14.840
how Ellen died, but it also
makes it more difficult for Ellen's parents to

756
00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:20.079
seek civil damages. Ellen's parents have
sought to adjust Ellen's manner of death to

757
00:55:20.199 --> 00:55:24.800
homicide or undetermined. Oddly, the
city of Philadelphia has fought back and is

758
00:55:24.880 --> 00:55:31.639
using litigation tactics to block Ellen's parents
from seeking justice. The family's request to

759
00:55:31.679 --> 00:55:37.039
the Philadelphia District Attorney to reopen and
investigate Ellen's case has been referred to the

760
00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:43.400
Chester County DA's office for review.
We are hopeful her office will review the

761
00:55:43.440 --> 00:55:49.320
case subjectively and come to the same
conclusion as every independent expert who's looked closely

762
00:55:49.400 --> 00:55:52.719
at the facts of the case that
Ellen did not commit suicide. But that

763
00:55:52.760 --> 00:55:58.280
shouldn't stop the City of Philadelphia from
doing the right thing. It's important that

764
00:55:58.320 --> 00:56:02.159
these officials understand the publick are watching
closely and are prepared to hold them accountable.

765
00:56:02.760 --> 00:56:07.559
Philadelphia Mayor Jim Kenny has the power
to order his Chief Medical Examiner to

766
00:56:07.599 --> 00:56:13.159
reopen Ellen's case. We encourage you
to reach out to the Mayor's office and

767
00:56:13.280 --> 00:56:16.480
let him know this case is important
to you, that Ellen's death warrants a

768
00:56:16.519 --> 00:56:22.199
closer investigation, and that justice for
Ellen must be done. Well, thank

769
00:56:22.239 --> 00:56:25.760
you for reading that. I implore
our audience please please please consider signing this

770
00:56:25.800 --> 00:56:30.360
petition for Ellen and her family.
It's the best present we can give to

771
00:56:30.360 --> 00:56:34.800
Ellen and the Greenbergs for sure.
Yeah, they're almost at two hundred.

772
00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:37.760
I think they have like one hundred
and fifty thousand signatures, and I guess

773
00:56:37.760 --> 00:56:42.119
I just thought it would be amazing
to get them to two hundred thousand signatures.

774
00:56:42.199 --> 00:56:46.199
Yeah, definitely, I'm such a
whoosy. I always start crying.

775
00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:51.280
It's interesting the cases that make you
that emotional, because usually it's one's involving

776
00:56:51.360 --> 00:56:54.320
kids, but this one doesn't.
But she was obviously pretty young and had

777
00:56:54.440 --> 00:56:58.440
a lot of life ahead of her. So it's definitely I think, you

778
00:56:58.440 --> 00:57:00.480
know, and I know that it's
just just justice has not been served.

779
00:57:00.519 --> 00:57:06.159
Yeah, it's just it's so devastating, and I mean, we have kids,

780
00:57:06.199 --> 00:57:09.000
and I just I think a lot
of times when there's a parent,

781
00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:15.039
parents are reminded me of the Jeffrey
McDonald case. Yea, and how Colette's

782
00:57:15.039 --> 00:57:20.039
parents just spent the rest of their
lives fighting for her. And I think

783
00:57:20.159 --> 00:57:22.920
that that's what I get the impression
of the Greenbergs too, like they'll do

784
00:57:22.960 --> 00:57:29.000
anything to have justice for their sweet
daughter. Understandable. Ah, well,

785
00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:30.840
good job. Well that was a
long gone to service. Yeah, it

786
00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:35.800
was super interesting though. Thanks for
putting that together. Oh, you're welcome.

787
00:57:36.599 --> 00:57:39.320
Happy birthday, Allen, Yeah,
happy birthday, Allen. Thank you

788
00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:43.159
all for listening. We're so grateful
for each and every one of you.

789
00:57:43.639 --> 00:57:49.119
Follow us on Instagram or Facebook at
love Mary Kill or on Twitter at ellen

790
00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:52.760
k Pod. We love to hear
from you. To send us feedback or

791
00:57:52.960 --> 00:57:58.679
case suggestions or snack suggestions, email
us at love Mary Kill at gmail dot

792
00:57:58.719 --> 00:58:02.159
com or via the feedback form on
our link tree. And if you like

793
00:58:02.239 --> 00:58:06.119
what we're doing, give us a
rating, a review, and subscribe.

794
00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:08.159
That really helps us out a lot. Thank you for listening, and remember,

795
00:58:08.320 --> 00:58:42.960
until next time, don't kill your
husband, don't kill your wife.

796
00:58:59.079 --> 00:59:00.920
Hi. I'm Tina and I'm rich. And if there's one thing we've learned

797
00:59:00.920 --> 00:59:05.159
in over twenty years of marriage,
it's that some days you'll feel like killing

798
00:59:05.159 --> 00:59:09.400
yours. Why are you just like
just like jumped into it.