Ellen Greenberg

0:00 Hi, I'm Tina and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife, and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill Hey Rich. How are you? I'm pretty good. How are you, Tina? I'm great? Good. Hey listeners, Oh, I always forget to say that. I know we've had a lot of new listeners lately, and a lot of new international listeners. So welcome, Yeah, welcome. Happy to have you. Absolutely. So it's Thursday, it's Thursday afternoon, and we're going to release this bonus episode tomorrow. Okay, yeah, it's it's a special episode, and I'm going to try not to get emotional. You know, I just I always get attached to the victims. It's not always, but most of the time, I just I do. I think about them all the time. Not exaggerating, I think about them all the time, Like have this little ritual in my head.

1:03 I try to think of them before I go to bed at night, just to remember them. Isn't that weird? Yeah? I mean it's you're a You're an empathetic person, You're a good person. Yeah, but today we're going to talk about Ellen Greenberg. And it's a very famous case. I think a lot of people probably know it. But tomorrow today, if you're listening to it, is her birthday. Okay. So i'd actually been working on this case for a couple of weeks. I always have a few going and when I realized it was tomorrow or today is her birthday, her fortieth birthday, I was like, oh, we should I want to try to get this out sooner. Cool. Well, yeah, looking forward to hearing about it. I don't I do not know about the case. It's a it's a baffling case. It's devastating, but it's baffling. So hopefully we will have some good discussion. But I did break you a snack. I know you're super duper hungry, and here you go, Well that's it's a good snack. Well'll just pretend that they're fresh and they haven't been sitting around a refrigerator for two weeks. But I've been making protein bites lately for everyone.

2:06 It's a nice little They're really good. They're they're almost like eating a thing a cookie dough. But I know they're healthier than they're a little healthier. Yeah, So here you go. These have what do they have in them? Chocolate chips and peanut butter and honey and O meal, and I think I put flax and chia and lots of good stuff. So I do you want to have one of those now? Yeah? All right, we'll take a little protein come back full of energy. All right. It took you a minute to digest that. It's so good though. I really like those a lot. I'm glad you like them. I forgot to say I put protein powder in them too, But I'll post a recipe if anyone is interested. But it's one of those things that everyone probably has their own version of an energy bite or a protein bite. Yeah. So you just make them and you put them in a tupwork container, stick him in the fridge, and they're just there and people just people just pop them back on them.

3:06 But these have been there for a couple of weeks. You were out of town last week, and I think, well, dairy free daughter, and make her a separate batch without the protein powder, and hers have been gone. But I don't eat them. I forget about them. And I've been trying not to snack as much too, so yeah, but perfect opportunity to have one of those today. Ye okay, So I'm going to try my best not to get emotional because I am already feeling a little choked up about Okay, if we need to take a break, we can take a break, Okay. I also wanted to give a shout out to this product. I got it TJ Max last week. I love it so much. It makes me so happy. It's so simple, but evy and facial spray. It's just it's super hot in here. So I brought you sound like you're sponsored by it. They paid us seven million dollars to run this atch today, so wow. Yeah, I'm I'm looking forward to now. They need zero dollars and zero sense. But I'd just like to give so well, you know, I sprayed in your face all the time when we're driving.

4:03 I know, but our listeners don't know. What is it? Evan facial spray And I found it at TJ Max. A daughter and I like to go to TJ Max to the beauty section and buy a lot of products that we don't really need, but I love this one. It's very refreshing. It is refreshing. I enjoy it too. Ellen Ray Greenberg twenty eight died on January twenty six, twenty eleven. The declaration of her manner of death is the most confusing I've ever come across. Ellen's death was initially ruled a homicide by the Philadelphia Medical Examiner, but was later modified to a suicide. And that matters because once a death is ruled a suicide, investigation stops and a killer is potentially free. It's been said that the best way to stop a murder investigation is to have it declared a suicide. Ellen's friends, family, podcasters, and many others have worked hard to have her manner of death changed back to a homicide. Today is Ellen's fortieth birthday. Happy birthday, Allen. We are sharing your story today to honor your memory and in hopes that the state of Pennsylvania will reclassify your case and take a closer look.

5:14 And listeners, you can help too. There's a petition to sign that we will talk about at the end. Here is the story of Ellen Greenberg. Ellen Greenberg was born in New York City on June twenty third, nineteen eighty three, to Josh and Sandy Greenberg. Ellen was an only child. The Greenberg's relocated to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, where Ellen graduated high school. She went on to attend Penn State, majoring in communications. She considered becoming a speech pathologist, but then decided to become a teacher and attended graduate school for education at Temple University. If you see a picture of Ellen, the first thing you'll notice is her beautiful megawat smile. She had amazing teeth. Both of her parents worked in the dental field, and you can tell. The second thing you might notice is her freckles. She had an abundance of a door horble freckles. She's a beauty, but you can also tell she has a natural exuberance about her and eyes that shine with happiness. I just showed you a picture, yeah. Description. Ellen was a twenty seven year old first grade teacher in Philadelphia. She worked at Juniata Park Academy, where she was a beloved staff member. She lived with her fiance, Sam Goldberg, in the luxury apartment building Venice Lofts in Northwest Philly in the man A Young neighborhood, on the sixth floor. She had been dating Sam Goldberg since she was twenty four and he was twenty five. He was also a Pennsylvania native and worked as a television producer for NBC Sports. In the summer of twenty ten, Sam and Ellen got engaged and planned on getting married in August twenty

6:47 eleven. She had even picked out her wedding dress four days prior to her death. Allan set out to save the date cards. Planning a wedding and being a relatively new teacher caused stress and anxiety to mount for Ellen. Her school year had proved to be challenging because the school district had changed some regulations and a few of her students had some discipline issues that made her day's extra challenging. However, after her death, the teacher that took over her classroom said everything was in perfect order. Ellen had even talked to her parents about moving back to Harrisburg with them and taking a leave of absence from her job while she worked at improving her mental health. Ellen's parents advised her to finish the school year and see a therapist. She began seeing doctor Ellen Burman, a psychiatrist who diagnosed her with extreme anxiety and adjustment disorder. Doctor Burman prescribed two medications for Ellen, klonopin for anxiety and ambient to help her sleep.

7:44 She had tried xanex and zoloft, but quickly decided they weren't helping. She only saw doctor Burman for three appointments on January twelfth, January seventeenth, and January nineteenth, but she was beginning to feel better. Clonipin is a pretty heavy draw wagon is usually used to treat panic disorder. It is fast acting and longer lasting than xanax. Simply put, it calms the brain, but it can be addictive. Do either of these medications have any like suicidal ideation side effects? Yes, they do, doctor Berman said. Ellen seemed excited about her wedding and her relationship with Sam. She didn't mention any mental or physical abuse, but it can take months for people to trust a new therapist and fully open up to them. Sure, Ellen's best friend, Alison could tell something bigger than her job was weighing on her. Allison and Ellen had been best friends since they were ten years old. They were even roommates at Penn State. She thought Ellen hadn't been acting like herself for the past few months. She just wasn't excited about the wedding or anything else. So January twenty six, twenty eleven, was a blustery day. Philadelphia was preparing for another northeaster. Over fifteen inches of snow was forecast. Ellen called her mom, Sandy, on the way to school, which was about a twenty minute drive. Sandy recalls it being a pleasant conversation. Because of the impending bad weather, school was released at about noon. On the way home, Ellen stopped to get gas and tried to call her friend Allison, but she didn't

9:18 answer. Sam was there when Ellen returned home, and they had a relaxed afternoon. At about four or forty five, Sam decided to get a workout in before dinner. He didn't have to go out into the bad weather to work out. Their luxury apartment had a gym in the basement. Ellen began making dinner and Sam finished his workout between five fifteen and five thirty and headed back upstairs. He had a key, but when he tried to open the door, he found that the door latch was engaged, so he wasn't able to gain entry. Do you know what I'm talking about? The door latch? So well, this is like their apartment, so they probably had like a lock on the door that the key would open. But then they probably had like a little dead bolt type of thing, not a dead world, but like a latch. Remember the other day, I was like texting you, Yeah, I don't know how to describe it, pretty much like it's like it swings around it. It's like a thick metal latch and it.

10:13 Yeah, just there's a little piece on the door. So the only way to lock that would be from the inside, one would think. So Sam yelled for Ellen and sent her several text messages, but got no response. He went to find the doorman slash concierge Phil Hanton to help him open the door. The doorman told Sam it was against building policy to destroy a lock and he would have to do it himself and Sam would be responsible for replacing the damaged lock. Sam returned to the front desk again after several minutes to ask for help again, but Phil again refused. And this is important. The doorman never went up to the sixth floor. Phil later noted to police that Sam was wearing Timberland boots and not running shoes when he came downstairs.

11:00 Is seeking help? Why did you say him? Because he allegedly just came from a workout, so exactly. But then I was like, well, maybe he just went to lift, and maybe you can wear or changed into maybe changed into workout shoes in the workout room, like maybe he had brought a bag with with a change of clothes. Could be I consulted with an exercise person today to ask if you would ever wear Timberland boots when you were lifting. I wouldn't think so, Like maybe, well, I was thinking maybe if he's going to work out by himself and he wanted to steal reinforced hoes so he wouldn't drop anything on his foot, Yeah, it seems unlikely. Yeah, but this person said no, that would that was not something that they would do. Between five thirty two and five fifty four pm, Sam sent nine text messages to Ellen that became increasingly angrier. Hello, open the door. What are you doing? I'm getting pissed. Hello, you better have an ex use? What the fuck? Ah? You have no idea? Those are the text messages I figure. He also emailed her and called her several times and received no response. What did you think of those text messages? Well, I think I'm assuming we're going to get to a point where we think he might be a suspect in However, she ends up dying, And actually, I think his text messages lead me to think it's less likely that he did it, just because I would think that would be

12:31 the natural reaction would be. You would be kind of pissed off, like you really you're locking me out? Well, I can only base this on my relationship with you. If that happened in our house, I think your first instinct would be are you okay? What's going on? Why aren't you answering the door? Because but wasn't that his first instinct? Weren't those text messages after like, well, the first one was Hello, I mean it went I'll rate him again, Hello, opened the door? What are you doing? I'm getting pissed? None of them were like are you okay? What's going on? Are you in the bathroom? Are you sick? Yeah? Okay. I think that would be your default, It would Yeah, I guess I was thinking about like, after a certain amount of time when he couldn't reach her, then he started getting pissed. But well, what you said was interesting too, that if he knew that he murdered her, why would he send like angry texts? But someone righter than myself said on their podcast that maybe the rest of his text messages were always like maybe that was his tone that he usually had in a text meshes, which is kind of terse. So he couldn't turn around then and be like, sweetie, are you all right? Because that just wasn't his way. Okay. Seam eventually gained entry into the apartment by breaking the door latch. It wasn't completely broken, but the screws were loose and part of the wood was chipped.

13:52 I'm going to show you a picture just so you can kind of describe it. Okay, can you describe that picture? Yeah, So the part that's on the door, which is like the I don't know how to describe it. It's like the little knobby thing. Yeah, it's like pulled out of the door at least part way. Like the screws are kind of out of the door, but it's unclear to me whether they're how far out they are. It looks like they're out a little ways, but it doesn't really look like the door was kicked in. That's what I would say. There was definitely pressure applied to the latch, yes, but not it doesn't look like excessive pressure. In my opinion, it's hard for me. It's hard to say. It's hard to me. This is a really important part of the case, and I will definitely post this picture for everyone to see. Yeah, I wish there was I wish there was a better picture. To be honest, it's hard to tell exactly how far out of the door the screws are. I agree. So Sam found Ellen on the floor in the kitchen, fully clothed, with a white towel that was pretty clean in her left hand and a knife in her right hand. She lay in a pool of her own blood. The rest of the apartment was undisturbed and there wasn't blood found anywhere else. Sam called his family members. Before he called Ellen's family, he called his cousin, Camyan Schwartzman. Then Camyan's father, James C.

15:09 Schwartzman, who was a high profile attorney in Pennsylvania, called him, and then he called his parents. Wait, what about nine one one, nine one one, fit in here. We're getting there. I mean, he's got some calls to make before. Yeah, Uncle James showed up just one minute after Sam and at the nine one one call. Get yourself an uncle, that's an attorney, I would say, But let's call the let's play the nine one one call now, Oh, I m out. I just I just walked into the right firelight on the floor, with blood everywhere on flat Rock Road, please call? Oh one Rock Road is at the house or a farm? Oh no, oh no, what a part?

15:58 Please hurry, please bleeding from I don't know. I can't she does. You have to calm yourself down in order to get you somehow. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. She I don't know. I'm looking at her right now. She I don't know. I can't see anything. She didn't there's nothing broken, she bleeps. Ellie, you don't know where she's bleeding from. Came from? So I think her head. I think she hit her head. I think everywhere everywhere. She might have fallen. Do you know what happened? She may have slept his blood on the on the table. Her face is a little purple. Okay, hold on for rescue for her. Stay on the phone. Aside six one flat Rock Road, Please, Harry.

16:53 What do you think on one flat Rock? Yes, that's all. Like I just I went downstairs go work out. I came back up. The door was lashed. Mike Fiance's inside. It wasn't she wasn't answering, so after about a half hour, I decided to break it down. I see her now, just on the floor blood. She's not she's not responding. Okay, she breathing. Look at her chest. I need you to calm down, and I need you to look at her chest as Really I don't think she I really don't think she listened to me. Someone's on the way. Look at her chest. If she fled on her back, she's on her back. Look at her chest and tell me if it's going up and down, up and down. I don't see her moving. Okay.

17:33 Do you know how to do CTR? I don't. Okay, I canna tell you what to do. Okay. And so they get there, I want you to keep her phone good held. Yeah hi, okay, Well then it do CTR with me over the phone. So they I have to write. Okay. So get her flat on her back, bear her chest, anyone her shirt all okay? Feel down by her side. Oh my god, Eli, please listen. You can't freak out because I'm trying that they're trying not. Her shirt won't come off as a zippric. She stabs herself where she's selling a knight. Well, no, her nice sticking out? What a nice sticking out of her heart? Oh? She stands her so okay, I guess so I don't know where she's selling it. I don't know. Okay, well, don't touch it. Okay, So I'll just started to let her out here. Now, I mean, what do I do? No, I mean you can't if the nicest in her chest is going to be kind of harpy the DCPR at this time? Oh no, oh my goodness. Okay police, the operator to seven seven, tell her, yes, they are you say a forty six yo? Want foot right right? Yes? Okay, someone's on the way and the knife is still inside where or what? The knife is still inside of her? Yes, I didn't take it out? Or what it looks like it's it looks like it's right in her heart. Okay, someone's on the way out here, Okay, you just get Oh my god, oh my god, how old is she? Twenty seven? Twenty seven? It's no sign of life at all? No, please don't peace. What's been trying to her arm?

19:07 It's I mean, she was fine to faint, she's ellie, she's not it's not her arm and her hands are still warm. I don't know if that means. But it's blood every I mean, I know, but you can't. And the knife is still inside of her? How far? I can't you see how far it went in? It looks pretty deep. Okay, looks three inutes a long nights. Don't touch any don't touch anything. I'm don't sucking anything. I can't believe it though. Wait, it was just youre with her. We yeah, we're the only one here. And she ran in the door. You said at lant to shut No. No. I I went downstairs to work out, and when I came back up, the door was lashed like it wasn't you know, it wasn't like it, you know, it was like locked from the inside. And I'm yelling and I saw it was no, no, no, no no, it's no sign of a break in, no noting. I'm breaking it off.

20:00 There will be when you get here. Tord to break the flash, but to get in, okay, rock And this is a house, right, it's an apartment. Oh my god, Oh my god. All right, thank you? What did you think about that? That was a That was a experience. That was a lot. He was kind of all over the place, Yeah, kind of, I almost I mean it's it sounds like a horrible situation. But I almost laughed out loud when he said she fell on a knife, Like that just seems like kind of a ridiculous thing to say. So I should tell you how her body was found. Okay, Yeah, she was in the kitchen on the floor, but she was like her back was against the cabinets, almost like she had kind of slid down the cabinet. Okay, And so she was sitting up upright ish, I think she was. I don't think she was slumped over. So how could he not see the knife? That was the other thing I was going to say, is like he acted like it just seemed weird that he would not have seen a knife sticking out of her chest. Yeah. Times he seems unemotional and detached, and other times he seems, you know, like Elle, Ellie, are you. Yeah. So I don't know what to make of it. It seems suspicious to me. Yeah, it seems very strange. I mean the fact that we know that he called people prior to calling nine one one. I'm sorry, if your uncle's attorney or not you, I wouldn't hesitate, yeah to call nine one one if I found you.

21:32 Let alone. It like someone I didn't know on the street. I would call nine one one if someone yeah, it's help and maybe he'll cover this. But did he have an explanation for why he made those calls before he called nine one one? I don't believe. So, yeah, that's really strange. So Ellen was declared dad at six forty pm. She was stabbed twenty times. The stab wounds were of a varying depth and length. Wait, how many times would she stabbed? Twenty? Oh, it's possible that two knives were used. There were ten stab wounds to her chest and abdomen, and ten stab wounds to her neck and scalp. The length of the wounds were from point two centimeters to ten centimeters, so some of them were just like pricks. Most of the wounds were superficial. Of the twenty wounds, only four were considered severe, the two to her knack, one to her stomach, and the final wound to her chest. One of the wounds to the back of her head went deep into her brain. Really, a cutcoat ten inch knife was lodged in Ellen's chest. I'm going to show you a picture of the knife real quick. Okay, So I think we own that knife, right, we own that knife. Yeah, exact same knife. It looks exactly like ten inches long. The entire length of the knife, not just the blade, is probably about half of the length of the blade, I would guess is maybe five inches. Why don't wean measure it all? Right? Well, you're right back. So we took a

23:03 little field trip to our kitchen, and I think that is the same. It's ten inches long and the blade is about what four and a half inches? Yeah, it's almost close. Yeah, it's yeah. And so and you said that that was in her chest like about three inches, and so the knife had to be sticking out at least seven inches out of her chest. So it'd be pretty unthinkable that you wouldn't see a seven inch you know, hilt of a knife sticking out of someone's chest, right, And I mean side note, we've hit I've had this knife for over thirty years. You've had the knife for a very the knife. You've had a knife longer than you've had me, yes, which is which is kind of a very good knife. You love this knife, and I actually don't love the knife, but you love the knife. Like if we go to cut something, you're always going to grab this knife first. Yeah, so I guess we're going to do a little commercial for Cutco knives here because you've never done anything to it. And yeah, we should just describe the blade too. It's a serrated knife. Yeah, I don't really know how to describe the blade.

24:11 Okay, Well, I mean it's very pointy on the end. Ye as tend to be, well, but not all of them. I mean some of them are a little blunter like this, because it's super pointy, right, you know, I could see it being able to and it's not very wide. It's only like maybe what half inch or three quarters inch wide at its widest part, and imagine taking it, I'm afraid to, like, you know, that would be quite a bit of force to get it into your brain, to get it into your brains. Yeah, it's just horrifying to think of. I'm never gonna look at that knife the same way. A. Yeah. So Ellen had been making a fruit salad and it all the fruit remained on the counter undisturbed, which is kind of strange.

24:56 Yeah, like you're gonna stop making a fruit salad in the middle and then yeah, no sign of forced entry. It had been snowing and so they were on the sixth floor and they had a balcony, but the snow is undisturbed. In twenty nineteen, a pathologist examined some tissue that was saved from Ellen's autopsy and determined that some of the wounds were received post mortem, specifically a stab wound in the cervical vertebrae. The wound didn't bleed, meaning her heart had stopped pumping. So so I'm wondering where you're going to get to the part where they rule it's a suicide. Like so far, this does not sound at all like a suicide to me. It's a tough case.

25:41 There are there is evidence on both sides, evidence supporting suicide and evidence supporting homicide. We know the final stab wound Ellen received was to her chest because that's where the knife was embedded, making it unlikely her death could have been a suicide. In my opinion, you said there was a there might have been a second knife involved. That's what some people have said because of you know, the varying length of the wounds, and some wounds, I think the autopsy report says that someone from left to right and some went from right to left, and it's possible that some were done with a left hand and some were done with a right hand. Was there a second knife found?

26:27 A second knife was not found, but this knife came from their knife lolock. They had other knives. There was no suicide note, and Ellen was very close to her parents. It's hard to believe she would kill herself and not explain to them why she needed to take her whole life. Ellen had no defensive wounds and there was no sign of a struggle. Wounds seemed to be aggressive and quick. Her DNA was the only DNA found on the knife and her clothing. The autopsy revealed that Ellen had eleven bruises and varying ages of resolution on her abdomen, legs, and arms on the right side of her body. They were noted by doctor Marlon Osborne, assistant medical examiner.

27:10 There were also marks on her neck internally but not externally. Do you know why that could be? No, Because sometimes, like if you're strangling someone, like she wasn't strangled, but if someone had been, like had their hands around her neck, it takes a while for the bruises to come to the surface. Okay, And the fact that she had eleven bruises on her body of varying degrees of resolution. What do you make of that? I don't know. I mean it's indicative of she was either really clumsy or someone was abusing her. So they happened at different times, right exactly. They didn't happen on January twenty six. I'm a little slow, but no, no, no, it's okay, it's it's a lot. Trace amounts of ambient were found in the toxicology report, and klonopin was also found in her blood, but not in abnormal amounts, so amounts that they would expect, so she wasn't overdosing at anything. Doctor Osborne first ruled her death a homicide, but a month later changed the manner of death to suicide. He said it was because she was on anti anxiety medication, but he changed his ruling after meeting with the police receiving pressure from them. He also believed that the doorman was with Sam at the time that he broke the door down. Suicide by stabbing is rare, but not unheard of. It occurs in one to three percent of suicides. I was going to ask you about that. It's the only one I know of is Elliott Smith, the singer. He supposedly

28:42 committed suicide by stabbing himself in the chest, And there's always been a lot of questions about that particular case, and to me, it always seems like, you know, I've never seriously thought of committing suicide, but that seems like the last way I wouldn't do it if I was going to was Elliot Smith was at one stab wound. I want to say it might have been more than one. Wasn't twenty, but it might have been two or three. That is really horrible. So the doorman not being there when Sam broke down the door is significant, Yeah, I mean because it's really only Sam who said that the door is latched, and so if nobody else was there to see it, it might not have been latched. Yeah, for sure.

29:22 And I when I first heard about this case, I was like, Oh, that's so mysterious, Like how did someone get into killer because it doesn't appear to but yeah, maybe the door wasn't latched. According to the Pennsylvania Attorney General, there had allegedly been searches on Ellen's laptop in December of twenty ten for suffocation, suicide methods, sex fantasy death, Zoloft prozac, depression, bath death, euthanasia, and painless suicide, which they said bolstered the ruling of suicide. But when the FBI crime Lab searched the hard drive in twenty eleven, they could find no such searches. An independent investigation of the hard drive confirmedness as well. So wait a minute, who said there were those searches? The Pennsylvania Attorney General. That's very strange. It is really strange. I read something about phantom searches, which I don't really understand.

30:15 That part is really confusing. And did Sam and Ellen have separate laptops or did they share a laptop by chance? I believe Ellen had two laptops and Sam had one. Okay, so it would be unlikely that he would be doing searches on her laptop unless he wanted, but not really that unlikely. Although I would never touch her electronic I think we're weirdly private. Yeah, I don't know. Would you do you have searched on mine? I don't think I ever touch yours, though, yeah, I saw you. So when the police arrived on the night of January twenty six, their cursory investigation led them to believe that Ellen's death was a suicide because there was no forced entry, no signs of struggle, and no defensive wounds. Nothing was stolen from the home. But they did a really poor job of investigating the scene and questioning Sam and others. The garbage wasn't even checked, lumin all wasn't used, so we don't know if the killer might have cleaned up the crime scene. No forced entry thing is meaningless to me, if I mean, if it was Sam that did it, of course, there was no forced entry and no sign of a struggle. He was engaged to be married to her. He could just walk up to her and she wouldn't think anything of it. So still a little bit dubious about the So you think he stabbed her in the back of the neck potentially, That's what I think too, Yeah, I mean that could be the first. We always give her our cards a way way too quick. We're supposed to wait to the end.

31:41 I mean, we're supposed to talk about the investigation. Du But no, we're always like, yeah, but he's guilty. Yeah, I've just heard very little to lead me to the conclusion of suicide so far. Okay, well we'll see if we can change your mind. There really wasn't a lot of blood either, but a lot of Ellen's injuries were internal, so she bled internally. The police were only in the apartment for about an hour and never declared it a crime scene. The apartment was professionally clean the next day by crime scene cleaners, destroying potential evidence. You believe that, no, I can't. Video surveillance of the building was searched and there was no unexpected or suspicious people entering the building. Neighbors were interviewed and didn't recall hearing any fighting inside the apartment, but they did hear Sam yelling trying to get an apartment after his workout. Okay, so I've broken this down. I have some evidence pointing to suicide and some pointing to homicide. So some evidence pointing towards suicide. Ellen had been struggling with mental health. We know that for sure. She began feeling overwhelming anxiety. She said it was due to work. She had began seeing a psychiatrist, which we know who had prescribed her medication, but both of those medications list suicidal thoughts as apostle of all side effect. There weren't any signs of a struggle defensive wounds. The crime scene was pretty clean and no blood was tracked anywhere else, which I think is kind of significant. And Sam was seen on camera going downstairs to work

33:15 out and no one saw any blood on. Ellen is young and healthy. She would have fought back. Yeah, but if the first wound was to the back of her head, maybe she had some sort of paralysis. Right, And I said Sam wasn't seen with any blood when he went to work out, but it was kind of a greeny camera. But still he would have had the clean if he'd him he could have showered in the gym and changed clothes and thrown away the bloody clothes. Remember the police didn't check the garbage. Okay, So still we were always going off on our side conversations. The door was lashed, Could Sam or someone else have locked it from the outside, Yeah, I know, And maybe it wasn't Seam, Maybe it could have been someone else. The only DNA on the knife was hers, but maybe there was another knife that it was disposed of when Sam left the apartment. The searches on Ellen's computer, which those were later kind of disproved anyway. Yeah, so that's really what I have for you and how it could have been a suicide. Evidence pointing towards homicide. The wounds to her neck were deep and would have required a great deal of force. And if she was, you know, had stabbed herself all these times, I would think with diminishing strength. Yeah exactly. I don't think she would have been able to keep going. I wouldn't think so either. And pain, and I mean, the pain must have been great. I can't even imagine.

34:45 The Greenberg family have hired many experts who don't think it's possible she committed suicide. Sam found her on the floor with her back against the kitchen cabinets. But it looked like the body could have been moved because there was kind of like drag marks in the blood. But it could have been her too, Like Ellen could have still been struggling. Yeah, yeah, she could have tried to be getting away from her killer. The knife flock in the Greenbird's kitchen was overturned on its side, potentially indicating some sort of struggle happened. Okay, you know we have a knife flock in the kitchen. It's pretty heavy. Yeah, that'd be hard to overturn. It would be hard to overturn unless you were grabbing it. Really quickly or trying to pull a knife out really quickly. Right. Yeah. A dried blood drip on Alan's face suggested her body may have been moved as well. She had like a drip. I think it went from her nose to her ear, and she was sitting upright, okay, so gravity would have forced that drip to go down, but instead it was horizontal. Okay, but he but in any case, Sam moved her onto the floor and laid her on her back too, right, so she could have still been but I guess it was a drop of blood. I don't think he did move her body. No.

35:57 One. In the nine one month call, he said he had her laying flat. He said that, but I don't think he did. Okay, So we didn't talk about this when we played the nine one one call. But my impression of Sam on the nine and one one call, he was kind of like, oh, I don't want to Oh she just looks so so gross. Again about the nine one one call too, I forgot to say it earlier, but it seemed very all very narcissistic to me, Like he wasn't like, oh my my love of my life is dead, or you know, she's hurt it just seemed like he was hesitant to do CPR on her, and like, oh, I have to, don't I right, that was all kind of strange to me too. We have a couple pieces of evidence that I don't really know what to do with. They kind of fall in the middle. There weren't any wounds to Ellen's hands, And if you're stabbing yourself over and over, you'd likely have some injury to your hands, would you. I think you would, Yeah, because especially like the ones and you're in a weak and state, you're in pain. I would think the knife would be slipping, you would have kept blood on your hands. Yeah. And the shallow wounds are hard to explain too, because some of them are just barely knicks and some of them are pretty deep.

37:09 I could sort of see that pointing to suicide. If you were going to commit suicide by stabbing yourself, like maybe you would, you know, be kind of like testing the waters or seeing like if you could do it, or you know, I don't know. It just seems like that would potentially be something that could result. But some of them on her abdomen were deep, and then there were some shallow ones, and the same with the back of her neck. It seemed like maybe you're right, you would be kind of poking, kind of poking. But then I think once you started going, I don't know, it's hard, so hard to imagine. Now we're going to go over the timeline pretty in depth here, all right. So January twenty six, twenty eleven, is the day of Ellen's death. At one twenty six pm, Ellen gets gas in her car. She left school, she went, She goes to get gas. At two thirties she calls a restaurant. We don't know why. If she called the restaurant to make confirm or cancel a reservation. It was snowing, so maybe they had a reservation for dinner and they decided not to not to risk it. At three forty seven pm, Ellen sends her final text. The last computer activity is four forty six, and I believe she was doing some wedding stuff on her computer. At four fifty Sam goes down to the gym. Sam exits to the gym at five twenty six pm. He must have some sort of keycard, because we have the exact times. At six fourteen Sam calls came Ian Schwartzman, So we have forty five minutes here of him trying to get into

38:42 the apartment. Okay, it's a long time. I think that it Well, you know, he's going downstairs trying to talk to the doorman, and he's you know, calling and texting, and I don't know what he's There's no cameras in the hallway to the apartment, so I don't know if he's just sitting on the floor in front of the door trying to wait for Ellen to Lettison. Still seems like a long time because I I don't imagine it would be that hard to really break that latch, and if you were really worried about someone, you could do that pretty quickly. I would think, well, and here's another problem I have, Like again, can only relate it to our relationship. If I think you're stuck somewhere, I'm not going to try to break the door down. If I know, I would call nine one one then like, hey, my can't I'm not getting a response from my fiancee. I think there's a problem. You know, I can't get into the door, right. I think I would just break the door down because I think it would actually be really easy. I think those latches are not that they're not that tough. It would be, you know, not that hard to do. Well. Now I'm really curious. No, I want to see this next time we're in a hotel room. You'll have to tell. So, okay, six fourteen he called came in, and at six twenty six, Uncle James, the attorney, calls him back.

39:52 So twelve minutes of the lapsed. I'm not sure when Sam gains re entry into the but sometime between six fourteen and six thirty that was before he called his cousin. I'm not positive. Okay. So at six thirty one, Sam calls nine one one and emergency responders are dispatched at six thirty three. Camyan Schwartzman arrives on scene at six thirty four, so they must have been really close, and emergency responders are there at six thirty six. At some point Uncle James is there too, So we have Sam, Camyan Schwartzman, and Uncle James are all present. Uncle James is a former prosecutor and at the time he was the vice chairman of the Board of Directors of the Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority, or SEPTA. He has been described as quote politically important in the city of Philadelphia. At the time of this writing, he is the President Judge of the Pennsylvania Court of Judicial Discipline, which just means he oversees I think judges. He's an important guy in the legal system. Yeah, so I have to say I took all of this from Gavin Fish.

41:08 If you know anything about the Ellen Greenberg case, Gavin Fish is your guy. He has done a ton of research, he has tons of documents, he has timelines, he has he did re enactments. So go to Gavin Fish. He's a YouTuber. He does a fabulous job, really great research. He's really dedicated a lot of time and resources to this case. So I give him all the credit for the timeline. So definitely go check out Gavin Fish does it, does a lot of really good YouTube videos. He's seems like a great guy. Cool. Ellen Greenberg is pronounced dead at six forty Sometime later in the evening, Sam gold for Goldberg has taken and handcuffs by the police for questioning and Uncle James is there with him. The next day, January twenty seventh, Ellen Greenberg is taken to the office of me of the Medical Examiner and the early morning for autopsy. They were sure not to remove the knife from her chest, so it's still in there. An autopsy is performed by doctor Marion Osborne at nine am and January twenty seventh.

42:22 Sometime same day, Uncle James calls Melissa Ware, who is the building manager for the Venice Lofts, and asks if he can enter Ellen and Sam's apartment to get a suit for Sam for Ellen's funeral. Melissa calls the police seeking permission, and they tell her that the crime scene has been released, so it's fine. That's crazy to me. Crazy. The police also tell her that she can call crime scene clean up to clean up the apartment before Uncle James and the clean up clue arrive. Melissa, smartest person in the room, makes a video of the apartment. She's smarter than the police. Yeah, so James. Uncle James gets there and he removes Ellen's cell phone, three laptops, and other items from the apartment after it's been cleaned. I'm just I can't believe that the police wouldn't have taken the laptop and the phone.

43:15 It's mind boggling. Yeah, so that again. Same day, Marlin Osborne creates a draft autopsy report with manner of death of homicide and police apply for a search warrant. So at this point it's homicide and they apply for a search warrant, but they've already released the crime scene. Yeah. Okay, well I think this is why they pressured doctor Osborne. Yeah, because they're like, we don't have any we don't have any evidence. January twenty eighth, at ten fifty one am, the search warrant is executed the police. He's clothing, blood samples, a diamond ring, latent prince, and a rubber made container of unknown contents. On January twenty ninth, cell phones and laptops are retrieved by police from uncle James Schwartzman. On March third, twenty eleven, Marlon Osborne changed Ellen's manner of death to suicide. About five weeks later. Okay, I didn't tell you earlier, but Ellen wasn't wearing her engagement ring. Her engagement ring was found in the bedroom on her bedside table. Okay, what do you think that means? I don't know.

44:31 I mean we're going to wrap it up and then we'll have some discussion and we'll remind me to talk about that. The Greenberg's Josh and Sandy are still mourning the loss of Ellen, but refused to stop fighting until they get justice for Ellen. They emphatically believe it was a murder. Sandy Greenberg said, quote, my daughter didn't commit suicide. We grieved her life for years. We just want Ellen's name cleared. She did not do this to herself and she deserved justice and we want closure. They try to close our doors, but we always find another way in. We're never giving up end quote. In October twenty nineteen, Joe Padraza, the Greenberg's attorney, filed a civil lawsuit on their behalf against the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office and the pathologist who conducted the autopsy, trying to get them to change Ellen's manner of death from suicide to murder or even undetermined. Ellen's parents, Josh and Sandy, have fought valiantly for their daughter for the past twelve years. Ellen was an only child and her death was and continues to be devastating to them. They've spared no expense in trying to prove Allen's death was not a suicide. They hired Cyril Wecht, a forensic pathologist from Pittsburgh who worked on the assassination of JFK.

45:45 He also worked on other high profile cases such as Elvis Lacy Peterson and Rebecca's Howe. I've heard his name, well, we've taught. I think we've talked about I think he might have done the Jeffrey McDonald. That doesn't mean that he doesn't know how to. It wasn't an agist comment, but I sure was. His conclusion was that Ellen's death was quote strongly suspicious of homicide unquote. He points to the neck wounds especially as evidence. Quote I don't know how they wrote this off as a suicide end quote. The Greenbergs also consulted with doctor Wayne Ross in twenty seventeen, who said the stab wounds to the brain would cause Allen quote severe pain, cranial nerve dysfunction, and traumatic brain signs, as well as numbness, tingling, an irregular heartbeat. I mean, if you stab your brain, like if you get I think I don't know motor motor activity. Sure, it depends on what part of your brain, but yeah, I would I would think that would be pretty debilitating immediately. Famous forensic scientist doctor Henley Henry Lee, known for his work in the show Staircase. It wasn't that. Yeah, I mean these guys, this is yeah all star crew here. Henry Lee, known for his work in the Jeanbene Ramsey and oj Simpson cases, reviewed the case and said, quote the number and types of wounds and blood stained patterns observed are consistent with a homicide scene end quote. Josh and Sandy hired a company called Biomax,

47:16 who developed a new technology called photogametry, which she used the data from the medical examiner's report to create three D graphics illustrating Ellen's wounds. The graphics show the number, angle, width, and depth of the stab wounds. Attorney for the greenberg S Joe Pedraza, said it's a critical and powerful tool for investigators. He told forty eight Hours. Quote, In this way, you're able to see the two really lethal wounds in the back of Ellen's head. You can tell that it's very improbable that Ellen could inflict the wounds from behind. She would not be able to generate enough force to self inflict. End quote. Sounds convincing to me, I know. In August of twenty twenty two, the DA's office in Chester County, Pennsylvania, announced it will review Ellen's case after the Pennsylvania Attorney General General's office referred the case to them.

48:10 The case is being reviewed by an investigator and a prosecutor. The AG's office released a statement saying it could no longer review the case because of an unspecified quote appearance of a conflict of interest end quote. In October of twenty twenty two, the Greenberg's filed another civil suit against members of the Medical Examiner's Office, the Philadelphia Police Department, and the District Attorney's office, seeking monetary damages. Quote. The family is looking for a manner of death designation other than suicide so that a thorough investigation that should have been done can be done. End quote. Their attorney, Joe Pedraza told forty eight Hours. By the way, forty eight Hours has really I thought their episode was great on this case. Sam Goldberg has never spoken publicly about Ellen's death. He currently lives in New York City with his wife and two children. So that's the story of Alan Greenberg. Okay, that's a lot huh, that is a lotting.

49:12 I hope I did it justice. I kind of threw this together and I'm a little bit of a mess today. I hope it was coherent. I think it was. It's a fascinating case, and I'm really boy, it's just I don't I don't see the suicide angle at like. There just seems like there's nothing that points to suicide or very little that points to suicide, and so much that points to homicide that it's just baffling to me. The way the police acted and the conclusion of the medical examiner, it makes me wonder if there was something nefarious going on with the uncle because he was like very powerful in you know, the justice system. I'm going to defend the uncle just for a second. I don't. I don't really know anything.

49:55 I have no reason to say that other than I don't think he did anything wrong. I think the fact that Sam called him, or he called Sam so quickly and that he was there by his side is odd. But I think that he was just there to protect his nephew. I don't think that he did anything wrong. I think he was by his side helping him. Yeah, I just wonder why they It just seems like there would be some reason why they change their ruling to suicide, and I think it was the pressure from the police, and the police did a shoddy invest investigation. They had no evidence left. Yeah, there are even very few crime scene photos. Yeah. Well, the sad thing is, even if they do, even if the Greenbergs somehow succeed in getting them to change the ruling there, how are they going to be able to investigate it now? Anyway?

50:43 Well, that's something I was going to say coming up here is Yeah, even if you know, they find enough evidence to prosecute Sam, I don't think it would hold up in corn is just not there a couple of things I wanted to mention. The door latch situation. It's been demonstrated that if you slam a door hard enough that the lock actually engages on its own, and it's possible. And the dead bolt on the door wasn't It wasn't locked. So that's kind of weird to me, because if you're going to take the time to latch the door, you would lock the door as well. You wouldn't just do one. But again, this is all according to Sam. Well, I'm wondering if they had a fight. Maybe it was a bad fight. She took her ring off. You know, they had a fight. She took her ring off, and yeah, he had his Timberlin boots on. He wasn't really planning to work out, he just needed to cool off, and maybe he laughed and went to the gym. Possibly she could have committed suicide. Then he slammed the door, engaging the lock.

51:45 Or you could look at it too as they had a fight and you know, he grabbed a knife or she grabbed a knife and he might have strangled. I mean, we don't We really don't know. Yeah. The only other thing I was going to say is, you know, all of the things that she was doing leading up to her death did not seem like someone who was about to commit suicide, Like looking at things online about the wedding, preparing dinner, like making fruit salad or whatever. It was like, none of those things seem like something you would do if you were going to commit suicide. Maybe an excellent point, and maybe it was a very sudden decision if she did do it, but still it just doesn't seem likely spontaneous, Like that would be a super duper spontaneous suicide and it happens, but yeah, you don't really go from peeling an orange to right stabbing yourself on the back of the neck. And the level of drugs in her system were you know, pretty low. Yeah, she wasn't overdosing anything. It's maddening case, for sure. Yeah it is. I can't believe I've never heard of this before. I'm surprised too. I was for sure that you would have heard of it. If I did, I don't remember it, but it's a sad one. Well, if you want to take a super deep dive, like I said, go to Gavinfish dot com. He's amazing with his research. I don't know how he does it, but he's got a lot of great YouTube videos and just tons and tons of documents like you wouldn't believe how many court documents and pictures and he's got it all over there.

53:15 And also I listened to the Prosecutors podcast. They have a five part series on this case, and they're so good over there. Yeah, I've never listened to them. Well, someone said that they gave us a shout out, which I find hard to believe because they're pretty big and they're they're awesome, Like really, they really do a good job calling our listener a liar. Oh no, no, no, not at all, not at all. I just was like when they told me that, I was like, so, if anyone does know, if they did and they know the episode I'd love to hear it and I'd love to thank them. Yeah, that would be a huge, huge for little podcast like us. But anyway, lastly, there is a petition on change dot org And if you don't mind, I'm gonna have you read this because I am just so emotional about this case and I don't want to cry. So it's kind of long, but if you just want to read it real fast. Ellen Greenberg was murdered by way of twenty stab wounds, with ten alone to the back of Ellen's neck.

54:16 While the city has since taken the view these wounds were quote superficial, they include a deep gash in her scalp, a stab wound through her vertebrae to the spinal cord, and another at the base of her skull into her brain. After initially ruling Ellen's death to be a homicide, the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office, at the insistence of the Philadelphia Police, suspiciously reversed itself weeks later and declared Ellen's death to be a suicide. Top forensic pathologists all agree the case is highly suspicious of murder. In fact, the city's own neuropathologist, based on her own exam of Ellen's spinal column injury testified the wound was consistent with Ellen being stabbed after she was already dead, which rules out any possibility that Ellen stabbed herself. A suicide ruling not only represents a misclassification of how Ellen died, but it also makes it more difficult for Ellen's parents to seek civil damages. Ellen's parents have sought to adjust Ellen's manner of death to homicide or undetermined. Oddly, the city of Philadelphia has fought back and is using litigation tactics to block Ellen's parents from seeking justice. The family's request to the Philadelphia District Attorney to reopen and investigate Ellen's case has been referred to the Chester County DA's office for review. We are hopeful her office will review the case subjectively and come to the same conclusion as every independent expert who's looked closely

55:49 at the facts of the case that Ellen did not commit suicide. But that shouldn't stop the City of Philadelphia from doing the right thing. It's important that these officials understand the publick are watching closely and are prepared to hold them accountable. Philadelphia Mayor Jim Kenny has the power to order his Chief Medical Examiner to reopen Ellen's case. We encourage you to reach out to the Mayor's office and let him know this case is important to you, that Ellen's death warrants a closer investigation, and that justice for Ellen must be done. Well, thank you for reading that. I implore our audience please please please consider signing this petition for Ellen and her family. It's the best present we can give to Ellen and the Greenbergs for sure. Yeah, they're almost at two hundred.

56:35 I think they have like one hundred and fifty thousand signatures, and I guess I just thought it would be amazing to get them to two hundred thousand signatures. Yeah, definitely, I'm such a whoosy. I always start crying. It's interesting the cases that make you that emotional, because usually it's one's involving kids, but this one doesn't. But she was obviously pretty young and had a lot of life ahead of her. So it's definitely I think, you know, and I know that it's just just justice has not been served. Yeah, it's just it's so devastating, and I mean, we have kids, and I just I think a lot of times when there's a parent, parents are reminded me of the Jeffrey McDonald case. Yea, and how Colette's parents just spent the rest of their lives fighting for her. And I think that that's what I get the impression of the Greenbergs too, like they'll do anything to have justice for their sweet daughter. Understandable. Ah, well, good job. Well that was a long gone to service. Yeah, it was super interesting though. Thanks for putting that together. Oh, you're welcome.

57:36 Happy birthday, Allen, Yeah, happy birthday, Allen. Thank you all for listening. We're so grateful for each and every one of you. Follow us on Instagram or Facebook at love Mary Kill or on Twitter at ellen k Pod. We love to hear from you. To send us feedback or case suggestions or snack suggestions, email us at love Mary Kill at gmail dot com or via the feedback form on our link tree. And if you like what we're doing, give us a rating, a review, and subscribe. That really helps us out a lot. Thank you for listening, and remember, until next time, don't kill your husband, don't kill your wife.

58:59 Hi. I'm Tina and I'm rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's that some days you'll feel like killing yours. Why are you just like just like jumped into it.