Nov. 13, 2024

Emily Noble revisited: An interview with Matheau Moore

Emily Noble revisited: An interview with Matheau Moore
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Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconYouTube podcast player icon

In this special bonus episode, we revisit the mysterious case of Emily Noble, featuring an interview with Matheau Moore. Emily disappeared in May 2020 from her condo in Westerville, Ohio, and her body was not found until four months later. Her husband, Matheau Moore, was arrested and charged with her murder, but a jury found him not guilty.

Today's snack: Simply Delightful Classic Caramel Corn

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Emily: A Staged Suicide in Ohio, by Matheau Moore

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Hi.

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I'm Rich and I'm Tina.

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And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty

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years of marriage.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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Welcome to a bonus episode of Love Mary Kill.

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Hey Tina, Hey Rich, how are you well?

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I'm okay, but today was supposed to be my lazy,

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cozy Sunday and you interrupted.

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Here I am dragging you into the podcasts.

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Yeah, I was making chicken and dumplings, cheesecake factory knockoff bread,

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and chocolate chip cookies, oh boy, just for you, because

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I didn't think we were recorded.

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Now, I'm embarrassed about the snack that I brought you

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because that all sounds really good.

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Well, it's just all homemade and Sunday sometimes I like

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to do a lot of cooking and reading and I

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try to, you know, unplug as much as I can.

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Yeah, well, you are a very good cook, so I'm

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looking forward to your chicken and dumplings and the bread.

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Not the cookies though, and the cookies too.

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Yes, well, you.

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Feel bad because I always bake for the podcast and

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I don't bake as much for you guys. So I

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was like, Oh, I'll just make cookies for fun today. Yeah, excellent,

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all right, so what'd you bring.

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Me well Today's Well, before we have snack, I just

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wanted to say today's episode is a little bit different.

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We're releasing it as a bonus episode because it is

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very different from our typical episodes. We're going to revisit

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the case of Emily Noble and Matthew Moore. So we

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covered this case in September twenty twenty three, so a

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little over a year ago, but recently I had the

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opportunity to speak with Matthew Moore and so we wanted

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to share that interview as a bonus episode. Before we

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play the interview, we'll give a short recap of the case.

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But I would definitely recommend that you go back and

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listen to the episode if you haven't already, Oh I

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have not, Well, I would recommend that you do.

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Well.

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I did listen to your interview, and you did a

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good job, and it kind of broke my heart a

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little bit. Matthew's been through a lot.

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Yes, and it's a super interesting case and it's always

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kind of stuck with me. So we'll we'll get into that.

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But first I do have a snack for you. I'm

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a little bit embarrassed now after you're making all this well,

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because you're making all this great homemade stuff. But I

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found this at the gas station. I'd never heard of

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it before. It is simply delightful, brand.

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Class I'll be the judges of old corn.

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But it says on top of it is simply the

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world's best, and the brand name is simply delightful.

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I don't really like bagged popcorn in general, well other

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than Garrett's, which is really not bagged popcorn.

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And this is made in Michigan, so oh okay, always worth.

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Trying, all right, I'll give it a whirl.

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What did you think about simply delightful classic caramel corn?

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You know it's pretty good. It's pretty good from Cadillac Michigan.

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Cadillac Michigan.

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Yeah. Well, I'm holding up my mitten hand. Cadillac is

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like right.

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Here, it is not quite there. Your hand is backwards.

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Your hand is backwards.

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So if you live in Michigan, when you're telling someone

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where someone lives or where place is, you hold up

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your hand and you point to it, but you're holding

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up your left and.

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You can do this we're kind to hold up both hands.

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We really should have video here.

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We should.

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You have to be born in Michigan for this to

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have that. I have never been able to do that.

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I can't even show you where we live. I think

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we live down here. By my wrist, you're still using

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the Oh my god. Okay, apparently you can only use

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your right hand.

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That's correct, it doesn't work otherwise. We live right here.

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Okay, So you live like on your lifelines, live on

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your lower lifeline. Pretty cool, right enough, Okay, let's move on.

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Great listening for the popcorn is my Simply Delightful dot com.

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And you got the Kramel corn. You said there were

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different versions of it.

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There's whole bunch of flavors they had.

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It's actually pretty good.

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I liked it a lot too.

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I'm as good as Garret's, but it's not that far

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off right. I give it an eight out of ten.

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Eight out of ten, I give it a nine. The

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story of Emily Noble's disappearance and death is really heartbreaking

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and also really perplexing. Emily was very kind and generous,

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just seemed like she was a really good soul. She

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vanished the morning after her fifty second birthday from her

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home in Westerville, Ohio, a suburb of Columbus, and months

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later they found her body in the woods very close

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to her home. That is one of the most baffling

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things about this case. It took four months to find

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her body when it was less than six hundred feet

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from her home the whole time. And I happened to

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be in Columbus for my job a few months ago,

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and I went out there just to kind of visualize

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the scene for myself. We posted a video on our

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social media and it was just kind of mind boggling

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to me because her body was found hanging in the woods,

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not far at all from a very busy road and

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a busy bike path. The main question in the case

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was whether Emily died by suicide or whether it was

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a carefully stayed Just a little background on Emily. Her

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life was marred by loss and tragedy. In her twenties,

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she lost some close friends to the AIDS epidemic. In

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twenty eleven, her first husband, Mark Farmelo, died by suicide.

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He actually called nine one one while Emily was out

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and told them that they would find his body in

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the alley behind their home. Just a few years later,

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she lost her father after a fall and then surgery,

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and just a year after that, her mother died in

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a car accident. Despite all of those devastating losses, Emily

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showed incredible resilience. In late twenty fifteen, she met Matthew

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Moore through an online dating site. Moore had moved from

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Las Vegas to Ohio to take care of his son, Joey,

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who had special needs. Moore's past adds another layer of

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complexity to the story. He has his own family history,

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including a traumatic brain injury at age nineteen, a previous

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marriage that ended in divorce, and the death of one

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of his sons at a very young age from a

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medical issue. Matthew and Emily ended up getting married and

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moving into Emily's condo in Westerville along with Matthew's son, Joey.

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Matthew had received an inheritance allowing him to basically retire

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at age forty nine. He would later describe their lifestyle

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as this sort of hippie existence. They were really into

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things like rainwater collection and foraging for wild plants, organic eating, mindfulness,

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and exploring spirituality. In twenty nineteen, Moore's son, Joey, who

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had been battling schizophrenia, took his own life by hanging

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himself in the woods. This was obviously devastating to both

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Matthew and to Emily. It was a year later, May

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twenty fourth, twenty twenty, when Emily disappeared. As I mentioned,

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it was her fifty second birthday, and by all accounts,

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she and Matthew had a really nice day together. They

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left early that morning and drove to Bucktel, which is

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about seventy five miles away, to sock up on springwater

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from the legendary springwater there in Bucktel fed from an

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underground lake.

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Was it they bottled their own spring water?

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Yeah? They did. Wow.

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They had a picnic, They visited Matthew's dad, They went

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out to eat, and they went out for a couple

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of drinks that night. Matthew said that he got up

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in the middle of the night to use the bathroom

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and then went and slept on the couch so as

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not to disturb Emily. When he woke late the next morning,

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she was nowhere to be found. Her phone, purse, and

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car were all still there in the condo. More thought

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that maybe she had gone out foraging, but Eventually he

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called the police that kicked off a search for Emily.

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The neighbor, John Kramer, said that he saw Emily leaving

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on the morning of the twenty fifth to go for

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a walk, but then later he said, well, maybe I

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misremembered that, maybe it was yesterday. But it's not until

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four months later that Emily's partially skeletonized body was found

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hanging in the woods not far from home. While it

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seems like the obvious conclusion would have been that Emily

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died by suicide, the police and the medical examiner decided

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that it was homas. This was based on the fact

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that her hyoid bone was fractured, which they claimed was

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rare in hangings like Emily's, and there were injuries to

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Emily's nasal bones and her cheek. They claimed that these

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injuries occurred around the time of death, although that would

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be disputed by other experts.

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Later.

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There was no DNA evidence connecting more to the scene

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of Emily's death, but the police decided to arrest him

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and he went to trial charged with murdering Emily. Moore

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stood trial in August twenty twenty two. The jury didn't

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have to deliberate long at all before finding him not guilty.

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After researching the case, watching the trial, watching all of

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the police interrogations and bodycam footage, I strongly believe that

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Emily died by suicide and that Moore is innocent, but

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there are people who still believe differently. Since being acquitted,

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Matthew has written a book and he's been very open

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and proactive about telling his story, hoping to get the

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word out about the injustice and what he believes to

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be corruption in law enforcement and the justice system. He

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reached out to me, and because the case still fascinates me,

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I jumped at the chance to interview him. So with

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that as background, let's play the interview now. It's about

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forty five minutes long, and then we can come back

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and discuss it. Just to note, the sound quality is

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not great. Matthew had a bit of a frog in

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his throat, and I think his phone or headset wasn't

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the best quality either, But I do think it's understandable

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and I think it gets better as it goes on.

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Matt thanks for taking the time to speak with me today.

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I wanted to start out by asking you about your

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life with Emily before she disappeared In the book that

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you wrote after the trial, you described your life with

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her in very idyllic terms, and I wanted to know

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what you remember most about your time with Emily.

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He caught me at bunch. I had kind of a

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reach lifestyle before at her, and when I met her

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that kind of made it made the choice for me

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that my partying days were over. I was just gonna

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kind of do this thing where I was just going

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to be a normal person, like she was pretty pretty normal.

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And she taught me about how to kick walk in

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the woods. I didn't think there was anything through a

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walk in the woods. There is, there's different levels to

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it and to be out there in nature. We ended

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up uh uh, foraging, she taught me. Well, we both

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kind of started doing that at the same time, and

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that turned into be such a filling hobbies. I just

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to go to a field and pick, you know, identified

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plans and pick them and then bring the moment and

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watch them eat and make salads need them. So she

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taught me a bunch about about that sort of thing.

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Now it was really neat.

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Yeah, And I know you and Emily both experienced a

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lot of loss in your lives leading up to Emily's suicide.

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I know that Emily's first husband died by suicide. She

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lost her dad and mom pretty close together. And I

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know you lost a son at a at a young age,

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and then your son, Joey took his life about a

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year before Emily went missing, So I was curious. I know,

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I know that Emily was close to Joey from everything

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I've read, How did the loss of Joey affect you

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and Emily and your relationship?

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Yeah, that's that's one thing they said that you'll hear

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a lot that Emily and Joey like fell in love

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and they came that had this great relationship. Emily wasn't

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like a kid person. It's not like they didn't like

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each other, but there wasn't a lot of Emily was

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very particular and when it comes to everything and all

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of a sudden, there was a kid until the teenager

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in her life. It wasn't nearly as like you think

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it was like a bad situation. It wasn't a bad

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but there wasn't a lot of Did she loved Joey.

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I don't think so, and I don't think Joey really

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loved her. Was more of a stepmother you know kind

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of situation. I don't think there was, but you'll hear

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00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:31.320
in the media that they here, you adore them, you

241
00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:34.600
adored her. They got I wasn't paying any attention to them,

242
00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:37.000
so she took over all the front of the front

243
00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:40.720
of all the all the roles of a parent and

244
00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:44.960
that things like that. That's just not so. Joey and

245
00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:47.879
I were very very close. We were like we were

246
00:12:47.879 --> 00:12:50.799
we were we were were I mean I raised them

247
00:12:50.799 --> 00:12:53.080
for so I had had full cutty of them for

248
00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:55.840
like ten years of them. Yeah, and we just him

249
00:12:55.879 --> 00:12:59.600
and I all the time. So as far as I

250
00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:02.320
think some words, how to deal with Joey's deep.

251
00:13:02.320 --> 00:13:04.840
Yeah, just how did that impact your your relationship?

252
00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:09.120
Yeah, I mean I made it closer. I mean she

253
00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:15.039
really she understood my pain and she gave me the faith.

254
00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:20.480
She helped me get through it. She really did. As

255
00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:26.480
far as her dealing her, she never cried over over Joey.

256
00:13:27.240 --> 00:13:31.759
Where I stop crying like the longest months and months

257
00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:34.679
and months, it was just I was a bullet, wasn't

258
00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:37.480
I wasn't really really bad shaped. But she she helped

259
00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:39.759
me do that, She really did. She really helped me

260
00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:43.600
to Yeah, that really up a few months. I didn't

261
00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:45.559
do that because that was my second that was my

262
00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:50.720
second kid. I didn't believe it. Yeah, I can't even

263
00:13:49.639 --> 00:13:52.720
so it was just it was it just, I mean,

264
00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:56.519
to my second son, both of them. I mean, I

265
00:13:56.559 --> 00:14:00.639
love both my sons. Yeah, Joey's I mean eighteen years

266
00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:04.759
of him and I just were so close, so there

267
00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:11.000
was there was never any real arguing or bad feelings.

268
00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:15.000
I've heard that I blamed her that since said that

269
00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:17.879
I blamed her for not being around to help Joy,

270
00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:21.519
which is absolutely not true. I don't know, they just

271
00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:25.000
I don't know if I've been paying attention. So a

272
00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:27.240
lot of the details of my case, but one of

273
00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:31.440
the details is that I blamed her for Joey's death

274
00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:35.720
because she wasn't there when he killed himself, which is

275
00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:38.399
just not anywhere close to being true.

276
00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:41.320
So yeah, I hadn't heard that. I definitely did get

277
00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:44.320
the impression from everything that I had read when researching

278
00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:47.279
the case that that Joey and Emily were really close

279
00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:49.480
and there was a lot of love between them. So

280
00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:52.960
that's that's interesting that it was a little bit different.

281
00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:56.279
Than than that. Yeah, they didn't, they didn't they I mean,

282
00:14:56.399 --> 00:15:01.000
they got along. They weren't. They he didn't fight at all,

283
00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:07.320
but they weren't. I didn't like the special connection at all. Yeah, yeah. No.

284
00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:09.919
One of the reasons I think that some people believe

285
00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:12.320
that you killed Emily is because of some of the

286
00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:15.159
text messages that Emily had sent to friends in the

287
00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:18.000
month the months before she disappeared. Now, I know you

288
00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:20.000
told the police that your marriage was good, and then

289
00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:23.879
they showed you some texts where Emily seemed to indicate

290
00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:26.759
that there were some problems. So I'm just wondering how

291
00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:29.639
you how you explain that, how you explain those text

292
00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:32.960
messages and and you know, was the marriage in good.

293
00:15:32.799 --> 00:15:38.879
Shape between when she got on her new phone in

294
00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:45.720
November of nineteen all the way up until she disappeared,

295
00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:52.480
which is which wasn't May May of twenty however many

296
00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:58.000
months that is we text every day. He would protect her,

297
00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:02.919
literally every day we text. The text They had six

298
00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:06.960
hundred pages, five six under pages out of technos with

299
00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:10.960
the big fat books. You know. I have them to

300
00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:14.200
if anybody ever wants to a copy of them, I'll

301
00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:16.919
send them to you because you can really get a

302
00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:22.960
sense of our relationship. He had these tech messages because

303
00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:26.639
we text every day. That's how we communicated. Out of

304
00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:30.559
the six five hundred pages of text messaging, they took

305
00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:36.320
ten pages and said this is a troubled marriage. And

306
00:16:36.399 --> 00:16:39.720
the worst thing I said was one day said she

307
00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:45.639
was shallow. She and we had like this thing where

308
00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:52.159
she would get upset very easily to very sensitive, and

309
00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:54.799
then it would come right back, like literally that day,

310
00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:57.679
it got to the point where I got, well, this

311
00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:00.919
is the family, this is how she is, and it's

312
00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:03.559
not a problem. I didn't really bother me, So she

313
00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:09.119
just upset. Later, she's gonna be fine. She mentioned she

314
00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:12.480
got mad whatever for whatever reason, and she told a

315
00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:17.319
friend of her be a text messaging that that she

316
00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:20.519
didn't think that we would be go married by summer.

317
00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:25.480
When I tell you hammnus later or maybe half a

318
00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:28.640
day later or how long she was, she was just

319
00:17:28.759 --> 00:17:31.720
mad for that moment. And she said that for that moment,

320
00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:33.839
I don't know if you've ever known anybody like that,

321
00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:36.440
but that's just how she was, and she'd be like

322
00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:40.039
right back to being the way she was. As far

323
00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:44.920
as as our text that that particular text messaging house,

324
00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:49.799
yes I didn't. I didn't know obviously that she was

325
00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:51.759
killing that way at all. I was the one to

326
00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:54.359
asked her if she wanted to go forth, and I

327
00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:57.240
would use that if like a way to get her

328
00:17:57.240 --> 00:18:00.319
to calm her down, because she'd be like, she'd be

329
00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.640
bitching about something and whatever. It was such little things.

330
00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:06.640
It was nothing big, nothing major, And I'd be like, what,

331
00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:09.920
you want to get a divorce? She's like, no, you know,

332
00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:12.480
I you know, that's not what I mean. And and

333
00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:16.039
so that's how that would that those folks things would

334
00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:21.279
run the text messaging about the divorce and her talking

335
00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:24.799
to her friend a couple of weeks prior about about

336
00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:28.240
not being not knowing whether it was going to be

337
00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:32.759
married by that summer. You had to know, Emily that

338
00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:35.200
it was just a thing that you would do. She

339
00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:37.920
kind of was just up and down, up and down.

340
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:41.599
And if you read I have her phone that with

341
00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:45.480
all of her technology to all of her friends, so

342
00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:48.279
that last nine ten months or whatever it was, if

343
00:18:48.279 --> 00:18:50.680
you read through them, you'll you'll get the picture of

344
00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:54.079
how she was. It's just something that she did to

345
00:18:54.119 --> 00:18:57.279
say that that was an issue. It wasn't. That's all

346
00:18:57.319 --> 00:18:59.119
I can tell you. It wasn't an issue. And you know,

347
00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:02.519
who knows that I that you what's the police department.

348
00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:05.799
They knew because they read to all of them, and

349
00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:07.559
if you read too all of them, you read them

350
00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:10.359
in context and you'll know, you'll be like, well, well

351
00:19:10.599 --> 00:19:14.440
this isn't a problem. Literally, she bitches. And then a

352
00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:17.839
day later they're back to being normal because they text

353
00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:21.000
every day and break there's the proof of it. You're

354
00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:25.119
you're getting that like a little piece of the reality

355
00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:27.160
of it. Yeah. Yeah.

356
00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:32.240
So it sounds like on the day of Emily's birthday,

357
00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:35.000
the May twenty four, twenty twenty, it sounds like you

358
00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:37.640
you had a really good day together. You went to Bucktell,

359
00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:40.200
get some spring water, you had a picnic, went to

360
00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:43.160
your dad's house, listen to some music, went out to

361
00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:47.039
some bars. In hindsight, were there any signs that Emily

362
00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:50.519
might have been thinking about taking her own life?

363
00:19:50.279 --> 00:19:55.640
I thought, I literally was like we were getting over Joey.

364
00:19:55.720 --> 00:19:59.759
I would focus in on me getting whether I was

365
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:05.200
go make it Joey's death. That that day was like

366
00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:09.400
a hump day, and I just felt I felt great.

367
00:20:09.880 --> 00:20:11.440
I just it was like, I'm going to make it.

368
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:16.480
I'm going to be okay. She and she she seemed happy.

369
00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:21.480
I I we I did what what you wanted to do.

370
00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:24.359
We wanted to which and then we had a picnic,

371
00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:26.839
and then we watched my dad for she gardened, and

372
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:30.039
then we went home. We got then I want to

373
00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:32.759
go up for my birthday at some drinks. That I

374
00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:35.039
took her down and did that and we came home.

375
00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:38.319
I didn't I didn't see any reason to think that

376
00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:40.880
she was unhappy at all.

377
00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:44.160
Yeah, So I want to ask you a few things

378
00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:48.359
about the morning that you got up and couldn't find Emily. First,

379
00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:51.200
I'd read that you you used your fine find my

380
00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:53.440
Phone app to see where her phone was instead of

381
00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:54.880
getting up, And I know there's been a lot made

382
00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:57.400
of that. Is that is that something you normally did,

383
00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:00.319
like instead of just kind of walking across the house, sir.

384
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:07.279
Yeah, Yeah. That was my son's old phone that she

385
00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:10.000
had a droid and I had, so he had a

386
00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:14.440
really nice iPhone eight? But did you want the iPhone eight?

387
00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:18.920
And so I switched over it. I gave the under

388
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.359
her and it had to find a phone on it

389
00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:25.799
because I used it with when Joey was alive, and

390
00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:32.079
I used it if the phone was where she was,

391
00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:35.960
and it was, and it was after I had already

392
00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:39.640
gotten up to look, so it was just like, well,

393
00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:43.720
if her phone's here, which it was, and she's around,

394
00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:47.160
just around some place, I don't I don't have it.

395
00:21:47.319 --> 00:21:51.039
They made it a big deal out of me texting

396
00:21:51.160 --> 00:21:54.319
her knowing that the phone was in the house. Why

397
00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:58.480
would why would someone text someone that doesn't earn the

398
00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:02.039
same home with I'm like, but does that don't they? Yeah,

399
00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:05.720
they're gonna use that as evidence against me and firm

400
00:22:05.799 --> 00:22:08.880
murder is that I text my wife was in the

401
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:12.359
same house as me. That no one would do. That

402
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:18.160
make any sense. The find the phone was They were like, well,

403
00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:20.960
if you knew the phone was in the house, why

404
00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:24.480
would you why would you find a phone? It makes

405
00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:27.920
it look like I'm covering something up where I'm trying

406
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:30.720
to you know it, did you know? I mean I'm

407
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:33.440
doing something like whatever. Wow, I was just trying to

408
00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:37.119
see her where she was, because if the phone was

409
00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:39.960
at the market, then that's where she was. But the

410
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:42.039
phone was still it was still in the house, and

411
00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:45.240
I was like, well, then she's wrong someplace. Yeah. I

412
00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:47.759
just don't see why anybody would take that in different

413
00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:48.519
I don't understand.

414
00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:51.440
Yeah, And the other thing I want to ask is

415
00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:53.519
when the police came over that day, one of the

416
00:22:53.559 --> 00:22:56.200
officers asked if you thought that Emily might have wanted

417
00:22:56.200 --> 00:22:59.079
to harm herself, and you said no initially, that she

418
00:22:59.160 --> 00:23:01.799
had never threatened herself, But then later you you kind

419
00:23:01.799 --> 00:23:04.240
of brought it up again, and this time you were like,

420
00:23:04.279 --> 00:23:06.720
I don't know, you know, maybe there is something there.

421
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:09.000
I'm just wondering, like, at what point did you start

422
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:10.839
to think that that was a possibility.

423
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:17.119
That's a complicated issue. What was it? You know, it's

424
00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:19.119
been it's been so long when they first got when

425
00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:23.400
he first got there, and that she would, like, you know,

426
00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:26.960
diach ever to hurt herself or not. I was never

427
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:30.279
going to say so, I though she had. She tried

428
00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:37.759
to walked into her trying to because I wasn't going

429
00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:41.279
to allow them to take her way like they did

430
00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:45.799
my son. When you tell the pretty from suicidal, they

431
00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:48.960
just they come and get him, take them away. So

432
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:51.039
so I said no, I said, no, man, she's she's

433
00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:54.720
not any more crazy than anybody else. As the day

434
00:23:55.400 --> 00:24:00.759
to progress in the suicide, things started to kind of

435
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:03.720
wear on me and it's like, Matt, she could be

436
00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:09.400
out there somewhere dead because she kills herself. So I

437
00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:14.000
eventually I was just like, you know, suicide, I don't know, maybe,

438
00:24:14.279 --> 00:24:16.440
you know, just to just to get it in there,

439
00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:19.039
and not that I would ever. And then when they

440
00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:23.559
interrogated me the next day, I kept that out as

441
00:24:23.559 --> 00:24:27.759
long as I could, until I just until they were like,

442
00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:31.400
accuse me of murder. And then they were like, well,

443
00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:33.799
then what else could have happened to her? And I

444
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:36.920
was like, well, you know, guys, there's a possibility she

445
00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:41.960
could have killed herselves. Suicide. Yeah, So it was. It was.

446
00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:45.000
It was a weird. What I was trying to do

447
00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:49.119
was keep her from if if she when hopefully when

448
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:52.559
she came home, everything's fine. This was just a big

449
00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:55.680
misunderstanding that I wasn't going to be like, hey, yeah,

450
00:24:55.720 --> 00:24:58.359
I told everybody you're so I and you not have

451
00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:02.319
to go to a hospital until yeah, that's what they do.

452
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:04.680
I guess. I guess you could say, ask you that

453
00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:06.720
a lot of people like you should have told the

454
00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:10.559
police that she was battle. I wasn't. I wasn't.

455
00:25:11.559 --> 00:25:13.680
In the body cam footage when the police are there

456
00:25:13.720 --> 00:25:16.079
that first day, there's there's a moment in the garage

457
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:18.680
where you notice this orange power cord being out of place,

458
00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:21.279
and you were really adamant about like this is weird,

459
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:23.039
Like this is really not normal. And I think most

460
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:26.720
people wouldn't have even noticed that. And but I'm just curious,

461
00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:28.440
like why did that stand out so much to you?

462
00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:30.839
And what did what did you think it meant?

463
00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:36.400
Everything in that house was she was so particular. I'm

464
00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:41.720
ocv particular about everything. She was very very particular. And

465
00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:45.680
when I saw that chord on the cooler, it didn't

466
00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:48.960
go on there, and I didn't I didn't want to

467
00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:52.160
think to why. I didn't want to like make a

468
00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:55.599
lot out of it. They asked me, they're like something

469
00:25:56.039 --> 00:26:01.279
out of place, I tell us, and the they we

470
00:26:01.480 --> 00:26:03.519
never said anything from them all of a sudden, you

471
00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:06.400
just bring me to this court. No, they asked me

472
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:09.279
to point out anything that was out of place and

473
00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:12.960
anything that was out of plate, and that condo would

474
00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:16.079
be really easy to see. It was. It was like,

475
00:26:16.119 --> 00:26:19.599
there's this orange cord and that's the same chord to

476
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:23.160
try to kill herself with like six months prior to that.

477
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:29.200
And I was just like, Oh, it's been this cord here,

478
00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:33.920
it doesn't belong here. I didn't think, Hey, this is

479
00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:37.880
Emily looking looking for something to hang yourself with. I'm

480
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:42.200
not that clever. Eventually, that's because that's what it was worked,

481
00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:45.000
looking for something to hang yourself with. And she fucking

482
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:47.480
she took it down off the book and she just

483
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:50.480
put it on a She decided not to use it

484
00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:55.039
because it was light out. She actually left Monday mornings

485
00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:58.799
when cramers are between nine thirty tents and she didn't

486
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:00.799
want to be seeing walking through the neighborhood with an

487
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:05.279
extension court. I was animate because I just wanted them

488
00:27:05.319 --> 00:27:08.039
to know that it was something that was out of place.

489
00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:11.960
Yeah, tell tell me about this previous suicide at time,

490
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:14.759
because I hadn't read anything about that before. When when

491
00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:16.240
was that and what happened?

492
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:20.920
It was? It was, It's in my book. It was

493
00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:24.480
a couple of months after Joey made suicide and we

494
00:27:24.519 --> 00:27:27.200
were drinking and we would stand in the kitchen and

495
00:27:27.319 --> 00:27:29.960
looking at music and drink and I was having a

496
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:34.079
bad night. I was having a real tough time because

497
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:39.000
I felt responsible for Joey to a point where well

498
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:43.759
as any parents as a as a kid, that chills meself.

499
00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:47.240
They feels guilty that they didn't stop it. They could

500
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:50.519
they didn't see it. I had started to talk to

501
00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:56.000
family about it, and she wasn't getting it. I was like, finally,

502
00:27:56.039 --> 00:27:58.559
I said, I shouldn't said it because I was I

503
00:27:58.599 --> 00:28:03.119
was drunk. I was like, we are responsible. You and you,

504
00:28:03.319 --> 00:28:08.480
Emily and and me are personally responsible for Joey, for

505
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:11.720
allowing Joey to have a chance to do this. I

506
00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:14.279
shouldn't have said it. It's just me. I was looking

507
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:18.880
for like help carrying this burden. But as soon as

508
00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:21.559
I said it, she just like went in to the garage,

509
00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:24.799
went ray past me because the kitchen was the garage.

510
00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:28.359
She went into the at the garage and I went

511
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:32.039
and on the couch and I was crying, and I

512
00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:34.119
just I don't know how long. I was probably about

513
00:28:34.119 --> 00:28:35.920
three or four minutes. I'm just sitting at the couch

514
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:38.039
waiting for her to come back in on what she's

515
00:28:38.039 --> 00:28:40.599
going to be doing in the garage. It was nice,

516
00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:44.319
and she didn't. She didn't. I heard from rumbling around

517
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:47.319
and she didn't come back in though. So I went

518
00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:49.920
out to the garage and open up the door, and

519
00:28:50.079 --> 00:28:55.119
she had our our attic had you had access to

520
00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:58.880
it in in in the garage. It was like a

521
00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:02.400
ladder or a tract of the ladder you pulled down

522
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:05.319
and it was really steep, which she did. She took

523
00:29:05.400 --> 00:29:08.880
that extension cord and she tied it to the rafts

524
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:11.799
up until in the attic. She s wrapped it around

525
00:29:11.799 --> 00:29:13.920
her neck and in a really kind of a neat

526
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:17.920
like adjustable not. She's really good at not. She was

527
00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:22.000
good at not and she h she was like lying

528
00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:28.079
on the staircase trying to hang herself. Bro and I

529
00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:30.880
went up where she was so light, going like ninety

530
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:37.119
five pounds, got I unwrapped the unwrapped the the cord

531
00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:39.440
around her neck, and I and she was like almost

532
00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:42.599
passed out fairly way. Brought her into the bedroom and

533
00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:45.039
I put her in bed, and I kept my eyes

534
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:48.279
on her her next day. I asked her about what

535
00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:50.599
was that? Why you doing that? What was that all about?

536
00:29:50.839 --> 00:29:55.079
She's like, I just wanted to see what would work. Now, Uh,

537
00:29:55.880 --> 00:29:59.799
we weren't that. I wasn't like Tullbathorties. I wasn't gonna

538
00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:03.039
take the house. So she's because I know she wasn't crazy.

539
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:06.119
She's a very well thought out person. So I just

540
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:08.440
kept my eye on her after that. And and that

541
00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:11.440
was and she got to me, she was getting better.

542
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:15.160
She was for the next six months. She just so

543
00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:20.759
signed to improvement. I mentioned that she did that. So

544
00:30:21.319 --> 00:30:24.000
just one of my friends names Mark, You're a really

545
00:30:24.039 --> 00:30:26.000
really good friend of mine, But he's the only one

546
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:29.720
that I mentioned that because I don't want everybody to

547
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:33.119
know that she'd done that. It's because we're private people,

548
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:36.200
and I did. But I did keep really close eye

549
00:30:36.200 --> 00:30:39.400
on her, and she seemed to make work her way

550
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:43.680
through that, and by the time she actually did suicide,

551
00:30:43.960 --> 00:30:46.680
I thought she had worked. He worked her way through it,

552
00:30:47.480 --> 00:30:50.759
and she was on the other side of it. She

553
00:30:50.759 --> 00:30:52.880
she tried to kill herself that night because of the

554
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:56.880
guilt she felt or Joey parent's still guilty.

555
00:30:58.200 --> 00:31:00.359
So I wanted to go back to your neighbor John Cramer.

556
00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:02.759
You mentioned that that he had He had initially told

557
00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:04.960
the police that he had seen Emily out that morning

558
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:07.799
between nine thirty and ten, and then later he said, oh,

559
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:09.960
maybe I was mistaken. I'm old, my memory is not

560
00:31:10.039 --> 00:31:14.240
the best. I'm curious because if he actually did see her,

561
00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:17.200
then case closed. Right, there's there there's no way that

562
00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:21.000
you could have done anything at that point. Yeah, So

563
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:23.559
do you think, like why why, how did he change

564
00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:26.960
his mind about that? And did was there any possibility

565
00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:29.000
that he saw her on a different day, not that day?

566
00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:34.880
No, he told everybody on Monday that he saw her

567
00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:39.559
on Monday. It was I don't know, eight hours later,

568
00:31:39.720 --> 00:31:45.480
six hours later, I saw him Tuesday, and he told

569
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:49.599
me he saw her Monday. The police came out with

570
00:31:49.640 --> 00:31:52.960
the police briefing for the community of press briefing. It

571
00:31:53.119 --> 00:31:57.079
said Emily was lasting on Monday between nine thirty and

572
00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:02.720
tent all of a sudden, Wednesday came drubbed out the

573
00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:07.279
cave and he changed his mind. And he changed his

574
00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:11.079
mind by saying, I don't know if it was Monday

575
00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:14.000
or the day before that. I started between nine thirty. Then,

576
00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:18.720
well the day on Sunday, you weren't there. We were

577
00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:24.279
in butcher Stille, placking spring water. Why did he change

578
00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:28.799
his mind? They made that really ambiguous a trial. They

579
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:32.279
made it sounds he testified a trially. He told everybody

580
00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:37.039
that that Monday, you know what I mean, that that

581
00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:40.799
Monday that he no longer could remember whether it was

582
00:32:41.240 --> 00:32:44.960
today or yesterday. Then why did why did he Why

583
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:48.960
did they release the pre press preaching on Tuesday saying

584
00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:52.720
that the last time Emily was seen was on Monday

585
00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:57.720
between nine grade and then again he was the last

586
00:32:57.759 --> 00:33:01.200
person to see her alive. So hard is the change

587
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:04.319
change his story? Now you're the life person to see

588
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:07.319
them alive, maybe you might have seen seen her some

589
00:33:07.400 --> 00:33:10.799
other time. Besides, you know, okay, you know how hard

590
00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:15.000
would that be? Convincing? There love that that that came

591
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:19.079
out really super obviously trial that a great lawyer.

592
00:33:19.799 --> 00:33:21.839
Yeah, and that that was not Honestly, for me, that

593
00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:24.279
was one of the most convincing things about your innocence

594
00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:26.960
because it didn't make any sense that I knew. I

595
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:28.759
knew that it couldn't have been the day before because

596
00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:31.480
you guys left early that morning. So for him to

597
00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:34.400
say it that he saw her on the same day

598
00:33:34.440 --> 00:33:36.440
that he saw her and then later to say well

599
00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:38.680
maybe it was wasn't It would have had to have

600
00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:41.559
been two days ago, which just didn't make any sense

601
00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:42.880
that that would be a possibility.

602
00:33:42.920 --> 00:33:46.720
Good. And I think that police put pressure on him

603
00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:50.599
change his story. I think there's said, hey, you know,

604
00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:54.680
you're the life person to see her alive on Monday,

605
00:33:54.839 --> 00:33:57.599
be sure you see him he heard the day before,

606
00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:00.960
maybe you know, And so yeah, yeah, I think I

607
00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:04.119
did here, yeah, and but they didn't know that we

608
00:34:04.119 --> 00:34:05.400
were going to be able to prove that we weren't

609
00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:08.199
there because they're not good paps. They're not they're not

610
00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:12.199
good detective. So it was really super cam bred you

611
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:15.159
caught that that that's one of the biggest things.

612
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:17.800
Obviously, one of the things we talked a little bit

613
00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:21.280
before we started the interview about. You know, Emily's body

614
00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:23.280
was found in the woods. It was about four months

615
00:34:23.320 --> 00:34:26.679
after she disappeared. And it still boggles my mind because

616
00:34:26.920 --> 00:34:29.159
she was so close to where you lived, like six

617
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:32.119
hundred feet away. And I was in Columbus a couple

618
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:34.480
of months ago and I went out there because it's

619
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:36.920
always it's always kind of boggled my mind. I've always

620
00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:39.519
wanted to get a better sense of the location. I

621
00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:41.719
did a short video that I posted on the Love

622
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:44.639
Mary Kill Instagram And I know you don't have the

623
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:46.320
answers any more than I do, But do you have

624
00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:49.000
any idea why it took so long to find her

625
00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:50.039
when she was right there?

626
00:34:51.159 --> 00:34:55.880
I'm pay competent, so the dog. The dog don't work.

627
00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:59.559
They do if they want the public to think they do,

628
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:03.599
they don't. Not all the time. How's the How does

629
00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:07.760
the cadaver dogs and the tractor dogs miss her? You

630
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:08.159
know what I mean?

631
00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:10.159
And they were right over in that area.

632
00:35:11.079 --> 00:35:14.880
Yeah, oh yeah, they walked. I brought them there, bro.

633
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:18.440
They were like, we need you. This is the weird.

634
00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:21.320
They're like, we need you to bring up to where

635
00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:26.000
Emily has been forging lately, up by the bridge. I'm like, yeah, sure,

636
00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:28.119
I mean, why do you want to go up there?

637
00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:30.280
We just want you to bring us up there. I'm

638
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:33.239
like okay, And I bring them up there and I

639
00:35:33.320 --> 00:35:37.000
walk around with them and we're walking around the woods,

640
00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:39.800
the purphory of the woods, and I'm like, this is

641
00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:43.239
where she's on forwards. You can't you don't forge in woods.

642
00:35:43.880 --> 00:35:45.360
I don't know if you want to came up forging,

643
00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:50.239
but forge plants are we they are in your lawn.

644
00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:54.800
They have to be out in the sunlight. They don't thrive.

645
00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:58.639
There's not nothing to forge inside the woods. There isn't

646
00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:02.360
enough light. You don't go forward in the woods. They

647
00:36:02.360 --> 00:36:04.480
were like, bring it to plate that place that she's

648
00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:07.920
been forging. So I brought them right to the bridge

649
00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:11.000
and the woods were right there next to the bridge

650
00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:14.519
is where she was. And I was like, you know,

651
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:17.119
I would hate to think anybody to drag. Yeah, you

652
00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:18.559
guys are gonna go in there and check it out,

653
00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:22.679
you know, we're like, yeah, we're many one. It's fine. Uh.

654
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:27.440
I had no idea. Why did you want me to

655
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:31.440
show you the place anyway? Would it's such a well

656
00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:35.280
traveled places. There's there's if he's not here, I mean,

657
00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:38.199
there's no reason for here. You you were on the

658
00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:41.360
County Line road right yeah, up there towards the bridge.

659
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:45.320
Kind is going by all the time, and yeah, busy.

660
00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:47.920
Road and yeah, bike path right there, and yeah.

661
00:36:48.039 --> 00:36:50.719
There's people all over the places. But why why why?

662
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:53.599
Why are you? Why are you making me bring me this?

663
00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:58.480
Like make any sense? And then I could? It gets

664
00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:02.039
too weird. I don't know how. They're either really stupid,

665
00:37:03.199 --> 00:37:06.639
which which is what my contention, they're just really dumb,

666
00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:10.119
or they're like they try to set me up. You know.

667
00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:12.159
They maybe they knew she was in there, and just

668
00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:15.280
like I wanted enough time to go by so that

669
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:18.679
the evidence that it was suicide went away and then

670
00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:20.920
they could try to make him do a murder. I

671
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:25.199
just don't know which they am. How do they make it? Yeah?

672
00:37:25.320 --> 00:37:27.719
I brought him there and they said, yeah, we're gonna

673
00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:31.000
go in there and look and gaver dogs caver dog,

674
00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:33.480
I mean, they were, they were they they said that

675
00:37:33.639 --> 00:37:37.440
the dogs didn't didn't like pick up a cent because

676
00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:42.440
she didn't have any body cat. But I mean they

677
00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:45.679
they they they those cadaver dogs find I mean the

678
00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:49.199
ones that work. I mean they find babies and they

679
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:52.639
find a little you know, like like bones from beyonds Ago.

680
00:37:53.639 --> 00:37:57.039
If if she was there and the dogs would have worked,

681
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:03.039
I just it's just it's a mystery. And then they, uh,

682
00:38:03.719 --> 00:38:07.079
the people, the founder, those women, the founder called Grubs

683
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:09.920
and you know, and but hey, we're so and so

684
00:38:10.199 --> 00:38:12.960
this is what we've been doing. We've been we've been

685
00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:15.599
taking the walks in in the morning all around West

686
00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:18.480
well looking family. We just wanted to let you know

687
00:38:18.519 --> 00:38:21.079
that that's what we're doing. And Grubs goes, don't be

688
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:25.000
afraid to search. Well, we've already searched. So would they do?

689
00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:28.400
They went to the first place that they searched. They founder,

690
00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:32.519
I don't know, you know what I mean, Yeah, that's

691
00:38:32.599 --> 00:38:38.079
that's wild, but it's just odd. Yeah, I'm I'm, I'm

692
00:38:38.119 --> 00:38:40.840
I've been through a lot, so I I conspiracies are now,

693
00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:43.920
like I know, they're like a thing, you know what

694
00:38:43.960 --> 00:38:47.760
I mean, It's like I just I don't understand any

695
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:50.480
of it. So I didn't. I didn't. I don't e

696
00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:53.119
think completely through this corrupt bro. I had no idea.

697
00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:57.559
So on that topic, I saw the body cam footage

698
00:38:57.559 --> 00:38:59.800
of your arrest, and it was it was terrifying to

699
00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:02.199
me because it was such an overwhelming show of force.

700
00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:04.519
They've got their guns drawn, a whole bunch of officers

701
00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:07.000
pointed at you, and it just felt like, you know,

702
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:09.400
one wrong move right if you reach for your phone

703
00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:13.119
or something that could have easily been you know, at

704
00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:15.480
the end for you, right. And so what were you

705
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:17.119
what were you feeling in that moment?

706
00:39:18.079 --> 00:39:23.400
You know, I'm naturally kind of a fidgety, scared kind

707
00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:26.480
of guy. I'm not really that, But for whatever reason,

708
00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:29.679
I wasn't afraid. I just did what they told me,

709
00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:33.960
you know what I mean, I didn't. They they surrounded

710
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:37.119
my car. They you know, they came up, running up

711
00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:38.960
and they're screaming on and I just like I just

712
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:42.719
moved really slow and deliberately and and just kind of

713
00:39:42.760 --> 00:39:45.840
like okay, but my heart didn't get racing and it was.

714
00:39:46.360 --> 00:39:48.039
It was like it was a shock, but it would

715
00:39:48.119 --> 00:39:51.519
like just do what they say. Later on, I'm like,

716
00:39:51.639 --> 00:39:54.320
why did you guys just call me? I felt you

717
00:39:54.360 --> 00:39:56.440
really had to do or just come back at my

718
00:39:56.519 --> 00:39:59.960
door and like, you know, like it's like it's no more.

719
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:02.719
You sort of came to the door. Good just arrested me.

720
00:40:03.239 --> 00:40:06.119
They did. They It was also it was all a

721
00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:09.599
big show, and it was and it was like a movie,

722
00:40:10.079 --> 00:40:12.880
but it was like they were really really bad actors,

723
00:40:13.079 --> 00:40:17.280
you know, like a really bad movie, real bad actors.

724
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:21.480
That's what it just felt like. It was all a show.

725
00:40:22.599 --> 00:40:25.400
That's what it is due the show it really is.

726
00:40:26.119 --> 00:40:28.079
I know you've talked about this in other interviews, but

727
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:30.800
when the not guilty verdict was announced at the end

728
00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:33.360
of your trial, you were really overcome with emotion. And

729
00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:36.440
I know you've said you were expecting a guilty verdict

730
00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:39.480
had you had you lost faith in the justice system

731
00:40:39.800 --> 00:40:40.559
at that point.

732
00:40:41.320 --> 00:40:45.079
Yes, they didn't need any evidence to indict me. They

733
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:50.000
didn't need any evident to investigate me. They didn't need

734
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:55.679
any evidence that eret me. I mean, why would I

735
00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:58.000
think it would be any they need. They didn't need

736
00:40:58.039 --> 00:41:02.280
any Why would they need even to convict me. They didn't.

737
00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:07.000
They wouldn't. I didn't, So I was there the whole way.

738
00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:10.920
The way I was treated in jail, it's horrible by

739
00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:16.119
the lawyers, by civil attorneys, my defense attorneys, uh there

740
00:41:16.280 --> 00:41:22.360
they're prosecutors. That it was just they literally went in

741
00:41:22.519 --> 00:41:26.639
and destroyed my life with no evidence that I did anything.

742
00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:28.960
So I mean, now, it's just it was just awful.

743
00:41:29.360 --> 00:41:32.079
Oh yeah, I had I had no no faith in

744
00:41:32.199 --> 00:41:36.159
any of it. I just had dinner with Connie, who

745
00:41:36.199 --> 00:41:39.800
was during number eight. I was just in Columbus and

746
00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:44.920
we talked. People like her have kind of helped me

747
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:47.559
with that put faith back into people.

748
00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:50.679
Yeah, yeah, that's for sure.

749
00:41:51.679 --> 00:41:52.280
I know.

750
00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:54.840
I think I heard that at one point you said

751
00:41:54.840 --> 00:41:57.360
that you were sued by Emily's family to try to

752
00:41:57.400 --> 00:41:59.960
have you removed as executor of her estate. But I

753
00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:02.039
don't know how did that turn out. Did that did

754
00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:04.679
that happen or did that? I know this whole situation

755
00:42:04.760 --> 00:42:06.360
has been really bad for you financially, but I just

756
00:42:06.360 --> 00:42:07.159
curious about that.

757
00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:12.079
I'm like, parents had an attorney out of Wonder His

758
00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:16.320
name is Tom Comas Tennis, and after her parents died,

759
00:42:18.079 --> 00:42:22.519
she she took on he became her attorney. He wrote,

760
00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:27.239
like will, there was a power. He sued me for

761
00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:32.719
my executorship over her will. I was the executor. Wanted

762
00:42:32.760 --> 00:42:36.159
me to be the executor on her estate. She sued

763
00:42:36.199 --> 00:42:39.440
me for my power of attorney, and he sued me

764
00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:47.440
for Condomini that we owned. Straight up. He got pretty

765
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:51.440
much all of it out of the will. It was

766
00:42:51.559 --> 00:42:55.079
just a big state just got closed after all of

767
00:42:55.119 --> 00:42:58.159
a sudden done. It was just like maybe one hundred

768
00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:02.480
little over one hundred thousand dollars in cash just sitting

769
00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:05.880
there because of the time. He kind of who sued

770
00:43:05.880 --> 00:43:09.559
me for the part of attorney, executorship and the condo.

771
00:43:10.360 --> 00:43:16.239
His turn fee came out of the estate like oh yeah,

772
00:43:16.280 --> 00:43:19.880
this dude ripped me off. He ripped me off completely

773
00:43:20.199 --> 00:43:24.280
and they allowed it to judge allowed it, and out

774
00:43:24.280 --> 00:43:30.320
of pic was one hundred seven thousand he got. I think, oh,

775
00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:34.119
but he got like seventy five thousand of it. So

776
00:43:34.199 --> 00:43:36.239
I did get the rest of it, the name part

777
00:43:36.280 --> 00:43:38.159
of it. He got out of the hundred dollars and

778
00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:42.719
he got thirty five dollars he made me pay or

779
00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:47.000
him assue me for my for my house. And I

780
00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:51.440
know it's just crazy. How is that legal? So I've

781
00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:55.119
done what I could to try to like make things right.

782
00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:58.920
But but if you've got judges don't care, you know,

783
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:01.440
they're out. They're all in this special club, you know,

784
00:44:01.559 --> 00:44:05.000
and they don't care. It was bad the attorney. The

785
00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:10.880
attorneys were on all sides. I heard an attorney named

786
00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:16.559
Garth's Cops out of Columbus, who I paid sixty grand

787
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:21.519
I think to protect my rights as far as in

788
00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:25.119
retaining my part of attorney and everything, I might as

789
00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:27.679
well just piled all that money to a pile and

790
00:44:27.719 --> 00:44:30.519
let it set it on par They all know each other,

791
00:44:31.159 --> 00:44:34.599
They're all part of the same club, you know. Just

792
00:44:34.920 --> 00:44:37.480
I just yeah, they'd bring me out. I got ripped off.

793
00:44:38.199 --> 00:44:40.760
Do you do you still talk to anyone in Emily's

794
00:44:40.760 --> 00:44:42.639
family or do they do they still believe that you

795
00:44:42.800 --> 00:44:43.400
killed Emily?

796
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:46.960
You know? I don't. I don't know. I don't, I don't.

797
00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:50.360
I haven't talked to anybody from their side at all.

798
00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:53.559
But do they think I killed Emily? I'm not. I'm

799
00:44:53.599 --> 00:44:55.079
not really sure. I don't know. I don't know how

800
00:44:55.239 --> 00:44:59.559
you could like watch my trial and think that I did.

801
00:45:00.440 --> 00:45:03.480
I mean, and that's you're like a dummy or something.

802
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:08.639
Oh uh, because she made a dentist appointment. It's okay,

803
00:45:08.679 --> 00:45:11.199
that's even she made as the point and she made

804
00:45:11.199 --> 00:45:14.039
her bed. And you know, because you know two set

805
00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:15.760
of people, they would never make the bed before they

806
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:19.800
go kill themselves. That's an obvious obvious, right, They're obvious.

807
00:45:19.960 --> 00:45:22.719
I'm being facetious, right, I mean's just evidence is just

808
00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:23.920
it's ridiculous.

809
00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:26.079
So what have you been what have you been doing

810
00:45:26.119 --> 00:45:27.679
since the trial? I know you got I know you

811
00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:31.280
got out of the Columbus area pretty quickly. Uh, and

812
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:32.639
you went back to Vegas, right.

813
00:45:33.400 --> 00:45:37.599
I traveled a bit. I went to Florida, Georgia, New York,

814
00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:41.119
and I did end up back in Vegas. I wrote

815
00:45:41.119 --> 00:45:44.519
a book and just kind of I that's the first

816
00:45:44.519 --> 00:45:46.280
thing that I wanted to do was write a book

817
00:45:46.599 --> 00:45:49.119
so that I can get my story down on paper,

818
00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:51.760
just to get it down, because I you know, you

819
00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:54.800
forget things after lot. And then while I was in

820
00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:59.440
jail for fifteen months, I started to I'm an artist,

821
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:01.440
but I'm not an artist. I just when I was

822
00:46:01.480 --> 00:46:03.760
a kid, I used to draw, That's all I did.

823
00:46:03.960 --> 00:46:06.480
And yeah, and I picked it back up. Man, I

824
00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:09.039
got pretty good at it. And uh, after I got

825
00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:13.000
done writing my book, I started to draw. Apparently now

826
00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:13.559
I'm an artist.

827
00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:16.480
So you've done You've done a few interviews, I know,

828
00:46:16.599 --> 00:46:18.760
since your trial, and you you actually reached out to

829
00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:21.559
me proactively. I'm curious, why are you? Why are you

830
00:46:21.559 --> 00:46:24.119
putting yourself out there? Like I think a lot of

831
00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:26.280
people in your situation would just be like, I just

832
00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:28.159
want to go back to my life and I want

833
00:46:28.199 --> 00:46:30.159
to get out of this. You know, spotlight and everything.

834
00:46:30.199 --> 00:46:32.280
Why why are you putting yourself out there?

835
00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:36.960
What light? What? Like? Do you speak up? I think it?

836
00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:40.800
My my life has been destroyed, and you can't I

837
00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:46.000
get to tell people about the what's book Lade Department

838
00:46:46.119 --> 00:46:50.159
and the Delaware County practicecutors. I take it, I will

839
00:46:50.199 --> 00:46:52.840
take it. You wait until you see this next program

840
00:46:52.880 --> 00:46:56.639
that's coming up. It's gonna blow your mind. They they

841
00:46:56.760 --> 00:47:01.559
they're they're they're dangerous people. They're dangerous, sclean, competent. I

842
00:47:01.559 --> 00:47:05.039
mean that's what I do. I wouldn't feel right unless

843
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:08.760
I unless I I have to. I have to. It's

844
00:47:08.920 --> 00:47:13.679
almost like therapy, be able to tell people how incompetent

845
00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:19.800
police are. Law enforcements. It filled with incompetence and and

846
00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:23.039
and they say it's always a husband, right, he said, no,

847
00:47:23.639 --> 00:47:27.679
not always husbands. It's always the husband because he's the

848
00:47:27.800 --> 00:47:30.440
easiest guy to put a case on it because they

849
00:47:30.519 --> 00:47:33.760
got you know, they got all that information on him.

850
00:47:34.519 --> 00:47:38.559
They just take his make a story out of it.

851
00:47:39.079 --> 00:47:41.440
And it's harder to do that with some random person

852
00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:45.000
or just someone that's not that close. It's it's bad,

853
00:47:45.719 --> 00:47:48.599
I'm sure because you you focused and on that, I

854
00:47:48.760 --> 00:47:52.480
think you got to know that the cops are just

855
00:47:52.639 --> 00:47:55.840
trying to close cases. They're not trying to solve cases.

856
00:47:56.039 --> 00:47:58.119
They want they want to make it look like they're

857
00:47:58.159 --> 00:48:01.639
solving more than any They just want to Uh, they

858
00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:05.400
just wanted to close take and what's the easiest way

859
00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:09.559
to do it right there? Look, look, you've got ten

860
00:48:09.599 --> 00:48:13.480
minutes that he wasn't even a cell phone that takes there, right.

861
00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:15.960
You know, I've I've done a fair amount of research

862
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:17.719
on your case. I watched a lot of the trial

863
00:48:17.800 --> 00:48:19.920
and we covered it a year ago in the episode.

864
00:48:19.960 --> 00:48:23.239
And I've made no secret that I think you're innocent,

865
00:48:23.320 --> 00:48:26.440
Like there was no credible evidence at all really that pointed.

866
00:48:26.199 --> 00:48:27.159
Towards your guilt.

867
00:48:27.880 --> 00:48:30.119
But there are they yet Yeah, but there are a

868
00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:32.159
lot of people out there that still believe that you

869
00:48:32.280 --> 00:48:34.719
kill Emily, maybe some of the people listening right now.

870
00:48:34.760 --> 00:48:37.599
So I'm curious, like how you handle the fact that

871
00:48:37.639 --> 00:48:39.719
there are people out there that think you're a murderer.

872
00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:41.639
That that would be to me, that would be really

873
00:48:41.880 --> 00:48:45.239
difficult to kind of handle knowing that, And what do

874
00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:46.960
you what do you want to say to people that

875
00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:49.079
I do think that you that you did this.

876
00:48:50.079 --> 00:48:52.280
There's the reason why my jury would go only out

877
00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:56.960
for a couple hours. Uh, you're a number eight that

878
00:48:56.960 --> 00:49:00.960
that they literally agreed it came in to deliberate and

879
00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:03.800
they all said, well, Woul does everybody think? Everybody said

880
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:06.480
not guilty right away. They didn't even need the three

881
00:49:06.519 --> 00:49:09.159
hours that they said. They didn't even need the extra day.

882
00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:12.559
People think I did this, and you're you're basing it on.

883
00:49:13.239 --> 00:49:16.360
You need evidence something just because you don't like me

884
00:49:16.519 --> 00:49:20.079
because he's weird. I mean, would they have They don't

885
00:49:20.079 --> 00:49:23.000
have anything. They literally don't have anything, because I talked

886
00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:26.239
to her in the past ten after they they come

887
00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:29.320
to my house without without without warrant, and they're just

888
00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:32.119
rummaging through all my crap. You got to understand the

889
00:49:32.119 --> 00:49:35.000
way that the police treat you. And it had been

890
00:49:35.039 --> 00:49:38.599
two days. So I slipped twice and said that I

891
00:49:38.679 --> 00:49:42.079
used to turn the past tense. That's not evidence, that's

892
00:49:42.119 --> 00:49:46.519
not evident. There's no there was no blood, there was

893
00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:50.280
no How would you do this and not leave the evidence?

894
00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:55.519
I mean, it was like if you listen to their

895
00:49:55.559 --> 00:50:00.239
final argument, they're closing arguments, they say that, I mean,

896
00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:02.679
I get off the phone with my buddy Brian at

897
00:50:02.840 --> 00:50:07.159
nineteen forty or eight forty. John said that he saw

898
00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:10.119
I'm going to leave it eight d which is not true.

899
00:50:10.320 --> 00:50:12.440
She didn't go anywhere, but he what he did that

900
00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:15.800
he saw come home and at one point he said

901
00:50:16.039 --> 00:50:19.159
he thought come home between seven and May. So they

902
00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:21.480
just said, okay, you must have started leaving eight oclack

903
00:50:21.559 --> 00:50:25.119
for this walk, right, yeah, okay. So I am on

904
00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:29.559
the phone until eight forty, and then I'm back on

905
00:50:29.599 --> 00:50:34.559
my phone at nineteen twenty at forty minutes, So I

906
00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:38.159
go do this thing where you were. I go out

907
00:50:38.440 --> 00:50:42.320
and confront her in the woods. Well, she didn't forge

908
00:50:42.400 --> 00:50:45.079
in the woods. She would have been outside the woods

909
00:50:45.519 --> 00:50:47.920
if she was forging, you know, and she would there

910
00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:50.320
was no reason for her to go in the woods

911
00:50:50.719 --> 00:50:53.760
unless he was looking for place killers she can get

912
00:50:53.760 --> 00:50:59.000
in private. You saw that area, their story didn't making

913
00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:01.679
a stamp. It was possibility for me to do that

914
00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:04.800
and that and not to be seen. You saw that neighborhood.

915
00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:06.920
How was I going to walk through up up saying

916
00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:10.039
that all those old people that are living in that area,

917
00:51:10.159 --> 00:51:12.079
I would have been. I wouldn't. And they said I

918
00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:13.960
went up there, killed her drag d in the woods

919
00:51:14.199 --> 00:51:16.880
or no, not not even dragger. I fronted her in

920
00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:19.719
the woods. She wouldn't been in the wood she was forging.

921
00:51:19.840 --> 00:51:24.039
But apparently I went wood fronted or killed her. Went

922
00:51:24.119 --> 00:51:27.159
back to the house the condo got on my phone

923
00:51:27.320 --> 00:51:31.480
at nine forty or nine twenty. I'm taking eight eight

924
00:51:31.559 --> 00:51:34.159
forty nine at nine twenty, you know what I mean.

925
00:51:34.280 --> 00:51:37.960
And then and then at nine point thirty my phone

926
00:51:37.960 --> 00:51:39.599
goes up again. And then I go back up there.

927
00:51:39.639 --> 00:51:42.840
So I'm up up and back two times, once with

928
00:51:42.920 --> 00:51:44.840
a flash flight so I can see what I'm doing.

929
00:51:45.719 --> 00:51:48.679
I mean, it's good luck if you if it's that,

930
00:51:48.880 --> 00:51:52.480
that's that's a story that you want to believe. I

931
00:51:52.599 --> 00:51:54.559
just I don't know what I know say. I think

932
00:51:54.599 --> 00:51:58.360
people just want to think people are guilty. I think

933
00:51:58.440 --> 00:52:01.239
people want to believe police. They want to believe that

934
00:52:01.280 --> 00:52:03.880
the system is not rigged, so they just they just

935
00:52:03.920 --> 00:52:08.519
say everybody prison is guilty. Connie said that that's that's

936
00:52:08.559 --> 00:52:11.119
how she felt before my case. That's why she wrote

937
00:52:11.159 --> 00:52:14.119
a book. County wrote a book about it. She's blown away.

938
00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:18.199
She couldn't believe it. And how often does it happen?

939
00:52:18.639 --> 00:52:20.760
And think to do this to me with no evidence.

940
00:52:20.800 --> 00:52:24.360
If you can indict someone like me with no records

941
00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:30.320
the murder with no evidence, that's really super dangerous. We're

942
00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:34.280
living in a very dangerous time. You know what's happened

943
00:52:34.480 --> 00:52:37.719
to grub and pet and all the reds that the

944
00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:41.199
cops are involved and and nothing, nothing happened. They do

945
00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:43.760
it thinks unity, It doesn't even matter. It doesn't even.

946
00:52:43.639 --> 00:52:47.239
Matter anything anything that we haven't talked about, matth that

947
00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:48.760
you wanted to mention.

948
00:52:48.639 --> 00:52:53.280
Or I'm sorry, Matt, I don't know how far down

949
00:52:53.400 --> 00:52:59.440
the redle you want to go. Really on the rationale

950
00:52:59.480 --> 00:53:03.000
behind the law enforcement, especially in little towns with a

951
00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:07.360
lot of money. I'm big big city cops, big city problems.

952
00:53:07.400 --> 00:53:10.159
They don't have to create crime because there's enough crime

953
00:53:10.199 --> 00:53:12.840
there they don't have to come up with stuff. They

954
00:53:12.920 --> 00:53:16.639
got things to do. These the country bunking got cops

955
00:53:16.679 --> 00:53:19.800
and these little towns and they have no experience. They

956
00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:25.519
I mean, be careful, be be, be extremely be on

957
00:53:25.559 --> 00:53:29.280
your phone. It was all about the phone, your cell phone.

958
00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:32.599
Have your cell phone with you at all times, and

959
00:53:33.280 --> 00:53:36.199
make sure you're doing stuff. And then then and then

960
00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:39.199
because if you're on your phone, you can't be jealous

961
00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:42.960
of you know what I mean? Because literally, if you're

962
00:53:43.039 --> 00:53:44.599
using it all the time and then all of a

963
00:53:44.599 --> 00:53:48.199
sudden you're not using it for twenty minutes, they get

964
00:53:48.239 --> 00:53:51.159
they can use it, they can use the interesting they

965
00:53:51.199 --> 00:53:53.599
can't eat. They they stuff, they can make a story

966
00:53:53.599 --> 00:53:54.039
out of it.

967
00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:56.559
Yeah, it's a really interesting point you make about kind

968
00:53:56.559 --> 00:53:59.920
of small town cops because part of my thinking is

969
00:54:00.199 --> 00:54:02.559
that it would have been easier for the police just

970
00:54:02.599 --> 00:54:05.440
to call this a suicide, which it was, and then

971
00:54:05.440 --> 00:54:07.599
it would be a closed case and it would be done.

972
00:54:07.639 --> 00:54:10.599
So why go through all this trouble? But it sounds

973
00:54:10.639 --> 00:54:13.000
almost like you're you're thinking that it's like they they

974
00:54:13.000 --> 00:54:15.719
are looking for something, you know, to do, or looking

975
00:54:15.719 --> 00:54:18.119
for something an interesting case or something that they can.

976
00:54:19.679 --> 00:54:24.199
And it literally It doesn't matter if the if it

977
00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:27.039
was a murder or to that, whether they lost, whether

978
00:54:27.079 --> 00:54:30.440
they won, it didn't matter. It's all about money, about

979
00:54:30.519 --> 00:54:35.199
spending money. It's just government. Wait, they had an opportunity

980
00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:38.400
to start making phone calls, did it, Matt? What happened

981
00:54:38.440 --> 00:54:40.760
to them? We look what they did to me? They

982
00:54:41.719 --> 00:54:45.480
destroyed me. What happened to them? You wait until you

983
00:54:45.519 --> 00:54:50.719
find out what a wait, You're gonna be blown away.

984
00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:54.440
They do this with impunity. They just wanted to They

985
00:54:54.519 --> 00:54:58.800
just wanted to spend money. They just wanted to give

986
00:54:58.840 --> 00:55:02.480
the public u perception that they're out there trying to

987
00:55:02.519 --> 00:55:05.599
get them justice or whatever. You know, It's just it's

988
00:55:05.960 --> 00:55:08.719
not and they know it. And they're lying to you.

989
00:55:09.239 --> 00:55:11.960
They're lying to the public, and they're you're sending their

990
00:55:12.039 --> 00:55:14.639
kids to college and you're you're paying for they're more

991
00:55:14.719 --> 00:55:17.239
to do. They get paid so much money, man, I

992
00:55:17.280 --> 00:55:22.639
mean unbelievable. Their wages are unbelievable. They get they get

993
00:55:22.679 --> 00:55:25.559
and and and all the connections they make. It's a

994
00:55:25.679 --> 00:55:28.400
it's a scam, it's really But I'm not saying it

995
00:55:28.639 --> 00:55:32.159
like in you know, in areas there's lots of crime, dude,

996
00:55:32.280 --> 00:55:35.599
Westerville Ohio, What are you kidding me? There's no crime

997
00:55:35.639 --> 00:55:39.079
there none, zero. But they got some drug people, big

998
00:55:39.119 --> 00:55:43.119
deal murgant. No, yeah, it's just it was just an

999
00:55:43.159 --> 00:55:47.519
opportunity for them to spend money and and and how

1000
00:55:47.599 --> 00:55:50.840
they do I mean, look, look what the dog You

1001
00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:52.400
know they gave me a lie to text or test.

1002
00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:53.280
You know that.

1003
00:55:53.639 --> 00:55:54.800
No, I don't think any of that.

1004
00:55:55.079 --> 00:55:58.239
Yeah, they get They give me a voice and selection test.

1005
00:55:58.440 --> 00:56:03.480
Everyone thinks that voice light executive test work. They don't.

1006
00:56:04.199 --> 00:56:09.039
They're inadmissible in court for reasons. But if if if

1007
00:56:09.159 --> 00:56:11.840
the public finds out that you failed a lot of extorts,

1008
00:56:11.920 --> 00:56:15.039
you're guilty. They gave me a voice inflection gest And

1009
00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:17.239
what they do is they tell you you failed it

1010
00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:22.039
so that if you are guilty, it puts pressure on you.

1011
00:56:22.039 --> 00:56:27.119
You know what I mean? They by me, uh, the

1012
00:56:27.280 --> 00:56:32.119
Vanished podcast, Amanda Cooleman, it's absolute garbage. You know you

1013
00:56:32.199 --> 00:56:36.440
must know the Vantage podcast, right, Yeah, it's garbage that

1014
00:56:36.800 --> 00:56:42.039
they're the best, absolute garbage. They called what's the vocal Department?

1015
00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:45.760
And Grub told them that I felt like that right

1016
00:56:45.800 --> 00:56:48.960
in the middle of investigations. What are you doing is

1017
00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:51.519
that legal? Are you able to? And it's still up

1018
00:56:51.559 --> 00:56:55.840
on their website. It's still up on their on the

1019
00:56:55.920 --> 00:56:59.920
Vantaged podcast, there's still saying that there's an open investigation

1020
00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:04.239
into my son Joey's death. There's a possibility that I'm

1021
00:57:04.239 --> 00:57:07.880
a serial serial killer. I killed Joey and I killed

1022
00:57:08.079 --> 00:57:10.159
my wife. What do I say to those people? I

1023
00:57:10.280 --> 00:57:14.039
think that's what that's the crap on TV. Yeah, I'm

1024
00:57:14.039 --> 00:57:17.639
feel sorry for you. You're being you're being lied to, and

1025
00:57:17.760 --> 00:57:21.400
you believe it just stupid, But you know you're drawing

1026
00:57:21.480 --> 00:57:25.360
people lives and reputations. They're lying to you, and that's

1027
00:57:25.400 --> 00:57:28.880
the worst journalism. It's not even journalism, it's horror fy.

1028
00:57:29.119 --> 00:57:29.840
It's it's horrify.

1029
00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:33.079
On that note, I think we we need to wrap

1030
00:57:33.199 --> 00:57:35.760
up here, but I want to thank you for your time, Matt.

1031
00:57:35.840 --> 00:57:39.239
It's been great to talk to him, and definitely I've

1032
00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:40.880
learned a lot more about the case, so it's been

1033
00:57:40.920 --> 00:57:42.519
really interesting. I appreciate it.

1034
00:57:43.440 --> 00:57:45.880
Yeah, and keep going with keep going what you're doing. Max,

1035
00:57:46.119 --> 00:57:50.480
You're one of the good guys. You're you're shows. You're

1036
00:57:50.480 --> 00:57:54.320
not like lying to make it more since the more interesting.

1037
00:57:54.400 --> 00:57:55.360
You just telling the story.

1038
00:57:55.400 --> 00:58:04.079
So so when we recorded our original episode over a

1039
00:58:04.159 --> 00:58:07.159
year ago, I was pretty much convinced that Matthew was inno,

1040
00:58:07.199 --> 00:58:09.239
saying you were a little more on the fence about it.

1041
00:58:09.280 --> 00:58:11.480
What do you think is your opinion changed?

1042
00:58:11.480 --> 00:58:13.199
I know it's been a while, but I did not

1043
00:58:13.320 --> 00:58:17.000
go back and listen to our previous episode. Matthew seems

1044
00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:20.880
like a very sincere man, and I feel horrible for

1045
00:58:20.960 --> 00:58:23.960
what he's been through. I think I was really confused

1046
00:58:23.960 --> 00:58:27.599
how Emily's body was found so close to the road,

1047
00:58:28.519 --> 00:58:31.599
and I remember something about that the tree maybe not

1048
00:58:31.719 --> 00:58:34.360
being like the sturdiest tree.

1049
00:58:34.639 --> 00:58:37.880
Yeah, yeah, I mean her body was found. You know,

1050
00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:40.639
it was very close to the road, but it was obscured.

1051
00:58:40.719 --> 00:58:42.239
It was a wooded area and you had to go

1052
00:58:42.320 --> 00:58:45.719
down like a fairly steep little hill to get down

1053
00:58:45.760 --> 00:58:48.880
to where she was, so you couldn't necessarily see her

1054
00:58:48.920 --> 00:58:50.039
body from the road.

1055
00:58:50.800 --> 00:58:54.880
But the brains bananas that there were sniffer dog searches

1056
00:58:55.159 --> 00:58:58.519
and the community search too, right, it is crazy, and

1057
00:58:59.159 --> 00:59:02.519
I'm sure that matt went and searched for and it's

1058
00:59:02.559 --> 00:59:05.519
just I think that was kind of like not suspicious,

1059
00:59:05.559 --> 00:59:07.760
but like wow, I just can't believe no one found

1060
00:59:07.840 --> 00:59:10.440
and she was a very tiny woman though, correct, right.

1061
00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:12.039
She was and the tree branch. You're right, it was

1062
00:59:12.039 --> 00:59:14.039
a fairly thin tree branch. But there was a lot

1063
00:59:14.079 --> 00:59:17.679
of testing done during the trial from different experts that

1064
00:59:17.880 --> 00:59:21.039
supported the fact that, yes, she could have hung herself

1065
00:59:21.039 --> 00:59:23.800
on that tree branch, it was strong enough for that.

1066
00:59:24.199 --> 00:59:26.800
And the thing with a neighbor I was kind of

1067
00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:27.880
unsure about too.

1068
00:59:28.239 --> 00:59:30.119
Yeah, that's one of the key parts of this case.

1069
00:59:30.159 --> 00:59:31.679
I think, can you explain that a little more? So,

1070
00:59:31.800 --> 00:59:34.599
it wasn't sure. It wasn't clear from the interview.

1071
00:59:34.760 --> 00:59:34.960
Yeah.

1072
00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:38.280
So the neighbor, John Kramer, he first told the police

1073
00:59:38.320 --> 00:59:41.639
that he saw Emily that morning, the morning that she disappeared.

1074
00:59:41.679 --> 00:59:43.719
So they went out for her birthday, they had a

1075
00:59:43.840 --> 00:59:46.119
nice night out, and then the next morning she was gone.

1076
00:59:46.840 --> 00:59:48.800
The neighbor said that he saw her. He saw her

1077
00:59:48.800 --> 00:59:51.320
a lot, going out for walks or going foraging or

1078
00:59:51.320 --> 00:59:55.440
things like that. Then later he said, well, maybe it

1079
00:59:55.559 --> 00:59:58.199
wasn't today, Maybe it wasn't this day, Maybe it was

1080
00:59:58.280 --> 01:00:01.199
another day that I saw her. It's important because if

1081
01:00:01.199 --> 01:00:04.360
he did see her that morning, then that basically clears

1082
01:00:04.480 --> 01:00:07.559
Matthew Moore one hundred percent, because if if he saw

1083
01:00:07.599 --> 01:00:10.159
her leave to go for a walk, there's no way

1084
01:00:10.199 --> 01:00:13.440
that Matthew could have killed her unless I mean, theoretically,

1085
01:00:13.440 --> 01:00:15.800
I guess he could have followed her, but it would

1086
01:00:15.880 --> 01:00:18.159
it would be super unlikely that he could have done that.

1087
01:00:19.119 --> 01:00:21.440
The thing is, the other thing that's interesting is that

1088
01:00:22.119 --> 01:00:24.880
when John Kramer said, well, maybe I saw her yesterday,

1089
01:00:25.480 --> 01:00:28.679
that wasn't actually possible because they were gone the day before.

1090
01:00:28.880 --> 01:00:30.840
They had left super early in the morning. They had

1091
01:00:30.840 --> 01:00:33.840
gone out to get spring water, so he couldn't have

1092
01:00:33.880 --> 01:00:36.719
seen her the day before. So if he was mistaken,

1093
01:00:36.760 --> 01:00:38.760
he would have had to be mistaken by like two

1094
01:00:38.920 --> 01:00:41.280
days at least, which doesn't make sense. And to me,

1095
01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:43.800
that was one of the key things that was like,

1096
01:00:43.840 --> 01:00:46.239
there's no way that he could have done this.

1097
01:00:46.360 --> 01:00:48.159
Do you know how old the neighbor was.

1098
01:00:48.239 --> 01:00:50.639
I don't know exactly he was older man, That was

1099
01:00:50.679 --> 01:00:52.719
what he says. Oh, I'm old, you know, maybe I

1100
01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:55.519
don't remember things well. But it just seems really unlikely

1101
01:00:55.559 --> 01:00:58.320
that the day of her disappearance he would say, yeah,

1102
01:00:58.320 --> 01:01:00.599
I saw her this morning and then later be like, well,

1103
01:01:00.679 --> 01:01:04.440
maybe it wasn't this morning. Just seems very unlikely. One

1104
01:01:04.480 --> 01:01:06.679
of the interesting things I thought in the interview. It

1105
01:01:06.719 --> 01:01:09.280
was early on in the interview where matt chose to

1106
01:01:09.320 --> 01:01:12.000
talk about the fact that he didn't feel like Emily

1107
01:01:12.119 --> 01:01:14.719
really loved his son Joey, and that Joey didn't really

1108
01:01:14.760 --> 01:01:18.880
love Emily necessarily. That was interesting because in the research

1109
01:01:18.920 --> 01:01:20.800
I had done and when we did the original case,

1110
01:01:20.880 --> 01:01:23.000
that was one of the points was that Emily and

1111
01:01:23.079 --> 01:01:25.440
Joey were just they loved each other so much and

1112
01:01:25.480 --> 01:01:27.360
they had this special bond together.

1113
01:01:27.440 --> 01:01:29.920
I think matt said that the media glombed onto that.

1114
01:01:30.239 --> 01:01:30.480
Yeah.

1115
01:01:30.599 --> 01:01:32.679
Yeah, but it's interesting that he chose to bring that

1116
01:01:32.800 --> 01:01:36.000
up because in some ways that if they did have

1117
01:01:36.039 --> 01:01:39.119
this special bond together, that would make a stronger case

1118
01:01:39.239 --> 01:01:43.559
for Emily dying by suicide instead of being murdered. But

1119
01:01:43.840 --> 01:01:45.960
I thought it was interesting that he chose to bring

1120
01:01:46.000 --> 01:01:46.360
that up.

1121
01:01:47.000 --> 01:01:50.719
Well, maybe he was implying that Emily had guilt because

1122
01:01:50.760 --> 01:01:53.360
she hadn't been closer to Joey and you know, she

1123
01:01:53.960 --> 01:01:56.679
felt really badly after he took his life.

1124
01:01:56.880 --> 01:01:59.880
Yeah, that could be Another thing I wanted to discuss

1125
01:01:59.920 --> 01:02:03.199
is that Matthew seems to think there is a big conspiracy,

1126
01:02:03.360 --> 01:02:05.360
like to arrest him and charge him, like they were

1127
01:02:05.360 --> 01:02:07.719
out to get him. And you know, I think you

1128
01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:11.199
and I are both not big conspiracy theorists. And when

1129
01:02:11.199 --> 01:02:13.119
I think about his case, I think, if I'm a

1130
01:02:13.119 --> 01:02:16.440
police officer, if I was looking for something, the easy

1131
01:02:16.440 --> 01:02:18.159
way out, the easy thing would be to declare it

1132
01:02:18.199 --> 01:02:20.159
a suicide and you'd be done. It would be a

1133
01:02:20.159 --> 01:02:23.280
closed case. You wouldn't have to do any more work

1134
01:02:23.320 --> 01:02:26.280
on it. You don't have it up as an unclosed

1135
01:02:26.559 --> 01:02:30.079
homicide or things like that. So I'm curious. And he

1136
01:02:30.159 --> 01:02:33.159
kind of implied that, you know, they did this because

1137
01:02:33.239 --> 01:02:35.880
they needed to have crime, Like it's a small town

1138
01:02:35.920 --> 01:02:38.119
police force and they need to have something to do,

1139
01:02:38.239 --> 01:02:40.480
or they get funding or something like that. So I

1140
01:02:40.519 --> 01:02:42.159
don't know, what do you think, Like, why do you

1141
01:02:42.199 --> 01:02:46.000
think the police would have pursued this so aggressively without

1142
01:02:46.039 --> 01:02:46.880
really a lot of evidence.

1143
01:02:46.920 --> 01:02:50.119
I wouldn't call that a conspiracy. Yeah, I think they

1144
01:02:50.199 --> 01:02:53.440
falsely accused him, But I don't necessarily think it was

1145
01:02:53.559 --> 01:02:57.679
a conspiracy that they were out to get him. I

1146
01:02:57.760 --> 01:03:01.239
think that they when The most poignant thing that Matthew said,

1147
01:03:01.239 --> 01:03:04.880
in my opinion during your interview was that police don't

1148
01:03:04.880 --> 01:03:07.880
want to solve cases. Police want to close cases, right,

1149
01:03:08.199 --> 01:03:12.239
And it did seem that was the case in this situation.

1150
01:03:12.559 --> 01:03:14.519
And I also don't think it was a conspiracy either.

1151
01:03:14.519 --> 01:03:17.239
That's why I kind of bring it up because I don't.

1152
01:03:17.280 --> 01:03:19.719
But I don't know why they went after him so hard,

1153
01:03:19.719 --> 01:03:22.280
because I really objectively looking at it, it's like they

1154
01:03:22.320 --> 01:03:25.559
didn't have any evidence and yet they decided to go

1155
01:03:25.599 --> 01:03:26.440
after him.

1156
01:03:26.800 --> 01:03:30.599
And it is interesting because different police forces handle it

1157
01:03:31.000 --> 01:03:33.280
different ways. I can point to off the top of

1158
01:03:33.280 --> 01:03:37.880
my head, Ellen Greenberg, m hm. Whereas the police said

1159
01:03:37.880 --> 01:03:41.400
that Ellen Greenberg's death was a suicide, when you know,

1160
01:03:41.639 --> 01:03:43.719
in our opinion, it looked like it was murder.

1161
01:03:43.920 --> 01:03:46.159
Yeah, that seems to be the more common scenario is

1162
01:03:46.199 --> 01:03:48.719
they write it off as a suicide even though it

1163
01:03:48.760 --> 01:03:49.800
seems like it might not be.

1164
01:03:49.880 --> 01:03:51.719
So this was your thing. It was like small town

1165
01:03:51.800 --> 01:03:53.679
cops who wanted in on the action.

1166
01:03:53.840 --> 01:03:56.039
And I'm not thinking that, but it seems like Matthew

1167
01:03:56.079 --> 01:03:56.480
is thinking that.

1168
01:03:56.599 --> 01:03:58.800
Sometimes. I think that's what the public thinks too, though

1169
01:03:59.639 --> 01:04:02.119
a lot of time times the public automatically and I

1170
01:04:02.199 --> 01:04:04.960
think we're guilty of this. Sometimes is you know the

1171
01:04:05.280 --> 01:04:08.119
husband did it, Because the husband does do it. I

1172
01:04:08.119 --> 01:04:11.000
don't know what the percentage is, but it's ninety percent

1173
01:04:11.000 --> 01:04:13.719
of the time or whatever. The husband is the prime

1174
01:04:13.800 --> 01:04:16.840
suspect because they're the perpetrator of the crime.

1175
01:04:16.960 --> 01:04:20.039
Yeah, matt mentions in there a little bit of a

1176
01:04:20.039 --> 01:04:24.719
cryptic reference to some new information coming in. Yeah, I

1177
01:04:24.760 --> 01:04:25.840
was going to ask you about it was an A

1178
01:04:25.920 --> 01:04:26.400
and show.

1179
01:04:26.599 --> 01:04:27.199
Thank you said that.

1180
01:04:27.239 --> 01:04:29.280
Yeah, yeah, I don't know any more about that. He

1181
01:04:29.320 --> 01:04:30.440
said he couldn't talk about it.

1182
01:04:30.519 --> 01:04:30.719
Yeah.

1183
01:04:30.719 --> 01:04:31.920
I don't think it's going to be out for a

1184
01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:35.239
long time, but I am very curious, like they actually

1185
01:04:35.280 --> 01:04:37.599
did some digging and found some new information.

1186
01:04:37.719 --> 01:04:40.280
Well, maybe he'll be able to let us know when

1187
01:04:40.320 --> 01:04:44.239
it's closer to the release of the Yeah, for sure.

1188
01:04:44.920 --> 01:04:47.480
But also, what is Matthew Moore's What is the name

1189
01:04:47.519 --> 01:04:48.199
of his book?

1190
01:04:48.840 --> 01:04:52.360
It is called Emily A Staged Suicide in Ohio. I

1191
01:04:52.360 --> 01:04:54.239
think it's a self published book, but you can find

1192
01:04:54.280 --> 01:04:58.480
it on Amazon, both in paperback or on kindle edition

1193
01:04:58.519 --> 01:04:58.920
as well.

1194
01:04:59.719 --> 01:05:02.079
I think think about this all the time. Your legal

1195
01:05:02.119 --> 01:05:07.440
system is it's so expensive to defend yourself and like

1196
01:05:07.559 --> 01:05:11.719
it financially devastates pretty much anyway, if you're if you

1197
01:05:11.719 --> 01:05:15.559
are accused of murder, it will financially devastate you. Yeah,

1198
01:05:15.599 --> 01:05:18.599
and it's so unfair. Do you know if Matthew filed

1199
01:05:18.599 --> 01:05:20.039
a lawsuit against the county.

1200
01:05:20.760 --> 01:05:23.280
I don't believe. So I do know that this did

1201
01:05:23.320 --> 01:05:26.559
financially devastate him. He had you know, I mentioned he

1202
01:05:26.599 --> 01:05:29.719
had basically retired at age forty nine because he had

1203
01:05:30.159 --> 01:05:33.639
inheritance that he got. But he basically blew through all

1204
01:05:33.679 --> 01:05:33.960
of that.

1205
01:05:34.920 --> 01:05:37.559
If the wrong man is in jail, justice is not served.

1206
01:05:37.960 --> 01:05:38.679
Absolutely.

1207
01:05:40.079 --> 01:05:43.400
I learned that you have to forage in public land,

1208
01:05:43.559 --> 01:05:45.559
not in the woods. That was interesting.

1209
01:05:45.840 --> 01:05:46.760
Yeah, I did not know that.

1210
01:05:46.800 --> 01:05:47.679
I didn't know that either.

1211
01:05:48.199 --> 01:05:49.320
Do you want to start foraging?

1212
01:05:50.400 --> 01:05:50.519
Uh?

1213
01:05:50.800 --> 01:05:52.559
No, because I would definitely do it wrong.

1214
01:05:52.639 --> 01:05:54.039
It sounds like a lot of work, and yeah, I

1215
01:05:54.079 --> 01:05:57.840
would probably eat something poisonous that you're not supposed to eat.

1216
01:05:57.880 --> 01:06:01.159
So yeah, me too. You did a really nice job

1217
01:06:01.199 --> 01:06:05.320
interviewing Matthew. I think you're a real natural. You're a

1218
01:06:05.320 --> 01:06:10.800
real Barbara Walters. Are real. What's the contemporary equivalent of

1219
01:06:10.840 --> 01:06:11.639
Barbara Walters?

1220
01:06:12.239 --> 01:06:14.159
I don't know. I was going to say Diane Sawyer,

1221
01:06:14.159 --> 01:06:15.559
but that is not contemporary either.

1222
01:06:16.599 --> 01:06:18.639
I'm showing how old we are. Let's see, you're a real.

1223
01:06:19.320 --> 01:06:20.199
Keith Morrison.

1224
01:06:20.440 --> 01:06:27.320
No, I don't know, you're a real. Terry Gross is

1225
01:06:27.360 --> 01:06:33.599
a compliment. Howard Stern, You're a real Joe Rogan. Well,

1226
01:06:33.639 --> 01:06:36.559
thank you, Thank you so much to Matthew for taking

1227
01:06:36.559 --> 01:06:39.000
the time out and and doing that interview with you.

1228
01:06:39.360 --> 01:06:40.079
Much appreciated.

1229
01:06:46.400 --> 01:06:49.360
So you've been real quiet about Michigan lately, University of

1230
01:06:49.360 --> 01:06:55.800
Michigan football, I have. You've got the Lions and wearing

1231
01:06:55.800 --> 01:06:56.920
a Lion shirt right now.

1232
01:06:56.960 --> 01:06:59.599
It's just sad that last season Michigan was so good

1233
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:03.039
on defeated national championship and then to fall from the If.

1234
01:07:02.920 --> 01:07:06.400
You recall I told you many times, relish this because

1235
01:07:06.599 --> 01:07:07.960
next season is going to be different.

1236
01:07:08.079 --> 01:07:08.320
Yeah.

1237
01:07:08.360 --> 01:07:11.159
I did relish it, but I wasn't expecting it to

1238
01:07:11.199 --> 01:07:12.760
be quite as bad as it has been.

1239
01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:15.920
I think their games have been close, Yeah, haven't they?

1240
01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:16.639
I'm not really sure.

1241
01:07:16.719 --> 01:07:20.599
Yeah, I mean yesterday they played Indiana University, not University

1242
01:07:20.639 --> 01:07:21.599
of Indiana.

1243
01:07:21.239 --> 01:07:25.760
Right, Yeah, we apologized to whoever called us out on that.

1244
01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:31.039
Yeah, but they played Indiana University, who was highly ranked, undefeated,

1245
01:07:31.559 --> 01:07:34.599
and they actually they lost, but it was at least

1246
01:07:35.159 --> 01:07:35.960
somewhat close.

1247
01:07:36.199 --> 01:07:38.719
So Christmas right around the corner.

1248
01:07:40.880 --> 01:07:43.119
Great segue. So yes, Chris, Well.

1249
01:07:43.039 --> 01:07:44.239
We're just trying to wrap it up. So I just

1250
01:07:44.280 --> 01:07:47.679
wanted to remind you, make you accountable to our listeners

1251
01:07:47.719 --> 01:07:49.440
that Christmas is coming.

1252
01:07:49.559 --> 01:07:50.960
Yeah, how's your Christmas list coming?

1253
01:07:51.119 --> 01:07:53.960
You know what, none of it's going. I normally I

1254
01:07:54.000 --> 01:07:56.679
have a pretty good start, but I just I don't

1255
01:07:56.719 --> 01:08:01.039
have a lot of great ideas. Yeah so yeah, at

1256
01:08:01.079 --> 01:08:04.119
our advanced age, I think that. Oh your birthday is

1257
01:08:04.199 --> 01:08:06.079
right around the corner too. By the way, when a

1258
01:08:06.239 --> 01:08:08.119
you were we still have a couple of weeks. Yeah

1259
01:08:08.239 --> 01:08:13.079
till everyone. If anyone wants to, you know, wish Rich

1260
01:08:13.079 --> 01:08:15.320
a happy birthday, send me a note that I can

1261
01:08:15.360 --> 01:08:15.840
read to him.

1262
01:08:16.680 --> 01:08:17.800
Yeah, that would be exciting.

1263
01:08:18.239 --> 01:08:20.239
The things you want when you were older are like

1264
01:08:20.760 --> 01:08:24.000
more time with your family and friends. You want to

1265
01:08:24.039 --> 01:08:28.880
lose ten pounds twenty in my case, or you know

1266
01:08:29.279 --> 01:08:31.640
things like that that that you really Yeah, you.

1267
01:08:31.560 --> 01:08:33.920
Want the intangible things, not the material.

1268
01:08:34.159 --> 01:08:36.520
Yeah, you want happiness, you want peace. You want a

1269
01:08:36.520 --> 01:08:37.319
good night's sleep.

1270
01:08:37.520 --> 01:08:39.239
Oh yeah, I would love a good night's sleep for

1271
01:08:39.439 --> 01:08:40.119
my birthday.

1272
01:08:40.199 --> 01:08:41.680
Yeah you've been waking up really.

1273
01:08:41.840 --> 01:08:44.439
Yeah, time change one hour, it's just messed with me.

1274
01:08:44.760 --> 01:08:47.399
You've got more like that hour gave you were sleep.

1275
01:08:47.479 --> 01:08:48.560
But somehow it messed you up.

1276
01:08:48.640 --> 01:08:49.319
I know it did.

1277
01:08:49.840 --> 01:08:51.760
Like a three month old baby.

1278
01:08:51.880 --> 01:08:55.159
In a lot of ways, ye, well, thank you all

1279
01:08:55.199 --> 01:08:58.479
for listening. I hope that you enjoyed this special bonus

1280
01:08:58.520 --> 01:09:00.640
episode A little bit different. Let us know what you

1281
01:09:00.640 --> 01:09:03.119
think and let us know your opinions on Matthew Moore

1282
01:09:03.239 --> 01:09:06.640
Emily Noble Case. I'd be interested to hear what others

1283
01:09:06.680 --> 01:09:09.439
think about it as well. Send us an email at

1284
01:09:09.520 --> 01:09:11.520
Lovemarykill at gmail dot com.

1285
01:09:11.560 --> 01:09:13.960
Thank you so much for your support. We appreciate it

1286
01:09:14.039 --> 01:09:17.359
so much. Until next time, don't kill your wife, don't

1287
01:09:17.399 --> 01:09:18.039
kill your husband,