May 26, 2025

Gail and George Fulton - Part 1

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In October 1999, 48-year-old librarian Gail Fulton was shot and killed outside the Lake Orion, Michigan library where she worked. What initially appeared to be a cold-blooded, random attack soon revealed itself as something far more personal—and far more calculated.

At the center of the case: a crumbling marriage, a secret affair, and a woman named Donna Trapani who refused to be cast aside. The investigation uncovered a disturbing murder-for-hire plot involving a fake pregnancy, a forged suicide note, and three willing accomplices, all wrapped up in obsession, manipulation, and delusion.

The story spans two years of emotional unraveling, culminating in a fatal encounter that shattered a family. This case raises complex questions about accountability, denial, and the consequences of ignoring red flags.

Today's snacks: Buc-ee's Sea Salted Caramel Beaver Nuggets, Pocky Almond Crush, Buc-ee's Peanut Brittle, Buc-ee's Pecan Brittle (thanks Sam and Julia!)

Happy birthday Emma!

Listen to part 2 today on Patreon

Sources:

WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina.

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And if there's one thing we've learned over twenty years

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of marriage.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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Literally, Welcome to love, Mary Kill.

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Hey Tina, Hey Rich? How are you today?

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Fine?

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How are you?

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I'm good? Did you bring sassy Tina to the recording?

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Po Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah, a little bit, a

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little bit, got a little bit of a headache, and

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not to complain, but the weather here has been bananas

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and it's like sixty degrees, but it feels like there's

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dampness in the air.

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It feels like fall.

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Yeah, I feel really ugly today, you know, like, well,

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that's nice of you to say, but you're lying because

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I'm like pale and I feel I don't know, just wow,

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my hair's a mess, my socks didn't really match my

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outfit today.

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So you are feeling sassy.

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I mean maybe defeated is a better word. So sometimes, yeah,

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I might feel a little snarky today, but I am

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excited to be here and you have a big day tomorrow.

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This is your last day of It's like your last

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day of summer vacation.

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It is.

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Yeah, tomorrow, you're going to wake up. I'm going to

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have to like get you you're packed by lunch. I'm

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going to pack your lunch. I'm going to make you

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a special breakfast. I'm going to take your picture. Yeah,

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because it's your your first day.

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Of starting new job tomorrow.

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So yeah, your new company, like you'll get a lot

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of new listeners for us.

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It's a small company, Like I said before, it's only

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maybe sixty people or so, so you know, maybe maybe

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we'll get a few.

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Well, speaking of new listeners, we've got a lot of

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new listeners join us, and we're so grateful. Welcome to

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the podcast. A huge thank you to Jesse and Andy

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from Love Murder, who gave us a shout out in

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one of their recent episodes, and a lot of their

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listeners came over and listened to us. So to our

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listeners if you haven't listened to Love Murder, it really is.

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I'm I'm not exaggerating one of the best podcasts out there.

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I've listened to them throughout the years, and when I

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hear them, they're so good and so professional, I'm like,

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I don't know what we're doing. We might as well

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just throw away our microphones because they're that good. So

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please go listen to Jesse and Andy at Love Murder.

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Have a Memorial Day.

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I can't believe it's already Memorial Day.

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I know I have been wearing white pants. I have

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worn white pants a few times and white shorts a

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few times. So that's how our rebellious I am you are. Yeah,

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today is a special day for us. It is the

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birth of the anniversary of the birth of our first child,

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of Emma, my little podcast Money. Yeah, we love you

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so much. I know you're not listening, but we love

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you so much.

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If someone is listening that happens to know Emma, tell

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her we wish her a happy birthday.

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Well, if you want to leave a little note for

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Emma in show notes, I think she would really love that.

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She was so happy to read all your nice comments

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and feedback from the Mother's Day episode. She really is

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a fabulous and we love her so much. Yes, so golden,

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they too. She doesn't like gold, so I don't know

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what you do with that. Maybe we just get our

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bars of gold.

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Hmmm, we'll talk about that later before we get to

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the case. Would you like a snack?

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Actually, kind of full.

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Oh okay, well, good more for me. Then, we have

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had so many nice listeners send us snacks in the

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mail lately. It's just so it's great. We just love that.

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And we have some more listener snacks today. So our

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friend Sam sent us a couple of things, one from BUCkies,

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which we talk about a lot, even though we've never

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been there.

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It's a dream.

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But she sent us some sea salted caramel beaver nuggets,

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and she sent us some pockeys, almond crush flavor pockeys,

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and so that's pretty cool. And then my dear sister

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Julia also sent us a couple of things from BUCkies.

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She and her husband were on a little road trip

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and they went to a BUCkies and she sent us

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some peanut brittle and some pecan.

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Briddle full disclosure. She also sent a package of the

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beaver nuggets.

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Oh, and I ate.

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When I opened both the packages that they both sent

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the same negatus. I'm like, well, we don't need to

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eat too mary disease. So yeah, those were delficious. Sam

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is a really good friend of the pod. Sam and

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her husband Tim lived in Italy. They lived in Europe.

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I think I'm not sure for Holland, but it was

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for several years, but recently they have moved back to

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the United States and they settled in Texas, and so

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that's why she was at BUCkies and sent us the

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Bucky snacks. But it was probably maybe a year ago,

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and Sam sent us up a bunch of snacks from

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Italy and that was super fun. And now she's in

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the US, so she sent us us so that was

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really kind.

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That's fine because my sister, my sister was in Texas

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also when she went to BUCkies. Wouldn't that be weird?

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Bright she Oh, sorry, no, I love.

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To hear you saying that. I just thought it would

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be really weird if she and Sam were at the

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same BUCkies at the same time.

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I don't really know.

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They never would have known. No, we should also give

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a shout out to my sister Julia, who sent us

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the other snacks from BUCkies. She makes jewelry and she

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makes all sorts of jewelry and it's really unique interesting. Yeah,

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so you should check her work out.

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Yeah, please check her out on Instagram. Her shop is

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called Grandma J Baked Clay g r A m M

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A Underscore J Underscore Baked Underscore Clay, give her a

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follow and check out her shop.

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All right, let's try these snacks. Let's how did you

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enjoy that assortment of lovely snacks, good stuff stuff. What

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was your favorite?

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Well, my favorite probably would have been the Texas Heat

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dip and cheeseball mixed that Sam sent that you didn't

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make you loved it in the box.

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Sorry Sam, but.

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They were all really good. And Sam also sent us

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a Texas soap and a cute little Texas sticker that

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I just put on my MacBooks. That's so nice, so sweet.

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What was your favorite snack?

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I love the peanut riddle.

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You're a big peanut turtle guy.

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Big peanutpridtle fan. But I also love the beaver nuggets too.

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I mean we've had those before, but they are so good.

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I'm a little worried about the working conditions in the

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beaver factory. How are they compensated? Like Bucky makes it

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a lot of They make a lot of stuff. Yeah,

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there's probably a whole, you know, litter of BUCkies working

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for peanuts.

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I'm sure that BUCkies compensates their be for employees very well.

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Do you think it's sanitary? Do they wash their pause

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for twenty seconds before they start making the peanut riddle.

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I am co saying they're like licking their paws as between.

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All right, let's get to the case.

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All right. Well, thank you Sam and Julia for the snacks.

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We love you both very much.

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It was just after nine pm on a chilly Monday

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night in October nineteen ninety nine. The Lake Orion, Michigan

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Public Library was closing up for the day. Barbed, the

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library supervisor, stayed behind with one other staff member to

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run the computer backups, a routine task that would only

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take ten or fifteen minutes. Meanwhile, forty eight year old

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Gail Fulton and two other library aids stepped out through

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the employee entrance and into the chilly night air. They

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said their goodbyes and headed to their cars. Gail climbed

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into her maroon Plymouth Grand Voyager and began to pull

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out of her parking space, but something didn't feel right.

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The van had barely moved when Gail stopped. She pulled

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back into the spot, stepped out, and walked around to

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the passenger side. That's when she saw it. One of

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her tires was completely flat. By now, the others had

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already driven off, leaving Gail alone in the lot. She

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turned to head back toward the library. That's when a

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car pulled up. Its headlights blazed into her eyes, blinding her.

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Then the back door opened, a man in black stepped out,

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his face hidden behind a ski mask. He raised the

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gun and pointed it at Gaile. She didn't have time

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to scream, let's back up and get to know Gail Fulton.

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She was born Martha Glee Garza in Corpus Christi, Texas,

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the youngest of two children. Her father, Noe Garza, had

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just finished law school. He built a successful legal career

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and was eventually appointed a federal judge, as was his brother, Margherito.

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Gaile's mother, Dora, worked at Noae's firm, first as a

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legal assistant, then as a paralegal, but her contributions extended

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beyond the office. Dora was a devoted member of Saint

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Teresa Catholic Church and a driving force in the city's

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Hispanic community. She founded the Museum of Hispanic Culture and

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later helped secure its permanent home. The Garzas were well

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known in Corpus Christi. Gail was raised in a traditional

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Hispanic American Catholic household, tight knit, church going, and achievement oriented.

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She attended an all girls Catholic high school, where friends

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remembered her as both proper and playful, a good girl

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with a fun streak. In high school, she was active

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in her parish's Catholic youth organization, and that's where she

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met George Fulton. George's background couldn't have been more different.

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While Gail grew up in a prominent family with just

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one sibling, George was one of nine. His father died young,

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leaving his mother to raise the kids on her own.

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Money was tight, but George thrived. In high school, he

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ran cross country, was first chair clarinet in the band,

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and served as senior class president. He was charming and

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well liked and not short on female admirers. When George

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and Gaylee meant, they clicked immediately and started dating. But

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George had plans. He was determined to become a career

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military officer, and he was accepted into West Point. Gail

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enrolled at Baylor University, where she studied speech therapy. They

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kept in touch through occasional letters, but slowly drifted apart,

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each focused on their own path. Still, they believed that

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if it was meant to be they would find each

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other again, and they did. After graduation, both returned to

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Corpus Christi. They reconnected and picked up right where they

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had left off. In nineteen seventy five, they got married

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and started a family. Melissa was born in nineteen seventy six,

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Emily in nineteen eighty, and their son, George Andrew arrived

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in nineteen eighty one. A year after the wedding, Gail

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left her job to stay home with the kids. Money

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was tight in those early years, and Gail often made

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personal sacrifices to keep the household running. She took pride

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in being a devoted traditional wife, supporting George in whatever

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he chose, even if it came at her own expense.

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For his part, was comfortable calling the shots when it

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came to big life decisions, even those that affected the

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entire family. He rarely asked for Gayl's input. One of

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the biggest decisions George made without much input from Gail

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was moving the family to Michigan in nineteen ninety six.

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I think that's when I moved to Michigan or around

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thereineteen ninety six orwety seven.

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Weird in Texas George had struggled to find work he

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felt was worthy of his talents. He started an electronic

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medical claims business, but it turned out to be a

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scam and cost him thousands. Later, he tried selling insurance

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and offering financial planning services. That didn't bring in much

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income either. Still, he bought himself a one hundred dollars

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tie to look the part of a successful businessman, while

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Gayle quietly tightened the family's budget to keep things afloat.

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So that's about two hundred dollars for a tie today.

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It's a nice tie.

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What kind of tie was it.

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I don't know. I'm guessing it was a fancy silk

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designer tie. I think I think George, like when he

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was selling insurance, he wanted to look the part of

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like a successful businessman, and he didn't really care that

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much that it would make things harder in the household

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because they really didn't have a lot of money at

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that point in time. And I think that's sort of

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the rhythm of Gail and George's marriage. George did what

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he wanted, he sort of chased his dreams, and then

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Gail dealt with things and tried to keep things afloat

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at home.

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Do you think in most marriages there's a spender and

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a saver.

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No, cup, I don't know. I'm sure every marriage is different.

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Well, I think everyone knows what you were implying. Well,

248
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some of us might need more than one pair of

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shoes every eight years.

250
00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:38.440
I can't imagine why. Then George got an offer from

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00:11:38.480 --> 00:11:41.759
an automotive supplier in Michigan. It was a good opportunity,

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00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:45.759
steady pay, decent benefits. George didn't hesitate. Gail, on the

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other hand, had reservations. Her father had passed away years earlier,

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and she was very close to her mother. The family

255
00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:55.279
was deeply rooted in Corpus Christy, with a strong church

256
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community and a wide circle of friends. Gail knew her

257
00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:00.559
mother would need more help as she got old, and

258
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she wanted to be there, but she kept these concerns

259
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to herself. George had made up his mind, and Gail

260
00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:09.039
did what she always did, supported his decision, even when

261
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it cost her something. There were a few bright spots.

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The job offered financial stability, and they could finally help

263
00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:18.679
the kids with college expenses. They bought a modest, brand

264
00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:21.120
new house in a nice neighborhood and since it was

265
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still under construction, Gail had the chance to choose some

266
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of the finishes. It gave her a small sense of control,

267
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something she didn't often have. The house was in Lake Orion, Michigan,

268
00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:34.320
a postcard perfect town of about three thousand, thirty five

269
00:12:34.360 --> 00:12:37.320
miles north of Detroit. I know her with its tree

270
00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:40.960
lined streets and shimmering lakes. The town's motto was where

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living is a vacation. I know Lake Orion very well too.

272
00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:47.039
I actually grew up about ten minutes away from Lake Orion,

273
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so very close to home. My grandma actually lived in

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Lake Orion.

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00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:53.600
Yeah, I think I met your grandma. You did a

276
00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:56.039
couple of once or twice. Yeah, I think she was

277
00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:59.200
in her twilight years by the time that met her.

278
00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:02.559
Yeah, I think she way probably soon after we got together, unfortunately,

279
00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:04.840
but she lived in Lake Orion and my family went

280
00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:08.360
there every Sunday for years, so it's a beautiful place.

281
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By the time they moved, their oldest daughter, Melissa, was

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00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:14.759
in college and stayed behind George. Gail. Emily, who was

283
00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:17.799
sixteen at the time, and Andrew, who was fourteen lived

284
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in a small apartment while they waited for their house

285
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:22.879
to be finished. Once they moved in, everyone settled into

286
00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:26.919
their new routines. Everyone except Gail. George was frequently away

287
00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:30.159
on business, often gone for days or even weeks. The

288
00:13:30.279 --> 00:13:33.799
kids stayed busy with school and activities, but Gail she

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00:13:33.879 --> 00:13:36.519
felt the absence of everything that she had left behind.

290
00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:39.080
She didn't get to know her neighbors and didn't seem

291
00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:42.679
eager to try. Her world had gotten smaller. She eventually

292
00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:45.879
took a part time job at the Orion Township Public Library,

293
00:13:46.120 --> 00:13:48.360
just ten minutes from home. It was a good fit.

294
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She loved books, but it didn't fill the void. She

295
00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:54.360
missed her family in Texas. She missed her mother, and

296
00:13:54.440 --> 00:13:57.720
gradually she began to lose weight. Her hair started falling out.

297
00:13:57.960 --> 00:14:00.840
The sadness was hard to ignore, but easy for others

298
00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:04.519
to overlook. George wasn't happy either. His own job wasn't

299
00:14:04.519 --> 00:14:07.639
living up to expectations. He still dreamed of running his

300
00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:10.879
own company, of being in charge of skipping the ladder

301
00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:13.360
and going straight to the top. He felt destined for

302
00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:17.080
something bigger, and increasingly restless in the life that he had.

303
00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:20.519
That restlessness crept into other parts of his life. He

304
00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:22.960
wasn't just looking for a new job. He was looking

305
00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:24.840
for a spark, something exciting.

306
00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:27.759
Sounds like a good time to start a gratifying hobby

307
00:14:27.879 --> 00:14:28.960
like woodworking.

308
00:14:29.879 --> 00:14:32.600
That would have been a great idea, But instead, I

309
00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:35.879
think George was looking for someone new, and he found

310
00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:38.720
her on a business trip to Florida. Her name was

311
00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:40.200
Donna Trapani.

312
00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:44.200
By Donna Kay Williams. Grew up in Louisiana, spending most

313
00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:46.960
of her childhood in New Orleans. According to Donna, when

314
00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:49.919
she was just six weeks old, her father, during a

315
00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:53.120
fit of rage, threw her against a wall. Her mother

316
00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:55.679
kicked him out, and he never came back. Whether that

317
00:14:55.799 --> 00:14:58.960
story is true or not as hard to say. Donna

318
00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:01.840
wasn't always a rel liable narrator of her own life,

319
00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:04.279
but what is certain is that she grew up without

320
00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:04.679
a father.

321
00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:06.559
I hope this story is not true, because I can't

322
00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:09.480
imagine a more horrible thing a six week old baby

323
00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:10.960
throwing her against a wall.

324
00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:14.679
After high school, she earned an associate degree in data processing,

325
00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:17.799
then went on to nursing school, graduating as a registered

326
00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:20.600
nurse in nineteen eighty one. She worked at a local

327
00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:23.120
hospital for a while, then took a job in home

328
00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:27.200
health care somewhere Along the way, she met Chuck Trapani.

329
00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:31.360
They married in nineteen eighty nine. Donna was sharp and ambitious.

330
00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:34.639
Her time in home health care sparked an idea, why

331
00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:37.080
work for someone else when she could run her own company.

332
00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:40.639
The home health care market was booming, so in nineteen

333
00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:43.759
ninety six, she and Chuck packed up and moved to

334
00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:47.639
Fort Walton Beach in the Florida Panhandle and launched their

335
00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:52.519
own business, Home health Care Systems, or HHCs. They opened

336
00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:55.159
their doors in February of that year. It took several

337
00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:58.799
more months to secure all the necessary licenses, but soon

338
00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:01.399
they were up and running. Donna and Chuck built a

339
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:05.519
team of registered nurses LPNs and home health care aids

340
00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:08.559
to care for the elderly patients in their homes. The

341
00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:12.159
business did well, at least at first, but Donna had

342
00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:15.879
some serious shortcomings as a manager. She was a micromanager

343
00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:19.279
with a volatile temper, and employees never knew which version

344
00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:22.000
of Donna they'd get on a given day. Sometimes she

345
00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:26.000
was cheerful and upbeat. Other times she was caustic, unpredictable,

346
00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:29.720
and cruel, publicly belittling staff in front of their peers.

347
00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:30.919
Do you ever have a boss like that.

348
00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:36.480
I mean, I think it's describing me. No, have you

349
00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:37.279
had a boss like that?

350
00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:40.279
I had one that comes to mind. I think you

351
00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:40.960
know who I mean.

352
00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:43.799
I'm not sure. Oh, I do know. She would call

353
00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:46.399
employees late at night on their days off, with non

354
00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:52.039
urgent questions. She demanded complete loyalty. Disobedience, no matter how small,

355
00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:56.360
was not tolerated. Her behavior was erratic and emotionally exhausting.

356
00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:00.720
Colleagues described her as scattered and impulsive, the mood swings

357
00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:04.160
that could change in an instant. Many suspected she suffered

358
00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:08.440
from bipolar disorder, though she was never formally diagnosed. At

359
00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:11.160
the center of her emotional storm was her husband, Chuck.

360
00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:14.400
He adored her and seemed willing to do anything for her,

361
00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:18.759
but Donna appeared to openly despise him. She humiliated him

362
00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:21.880
regularly off and in front of her staff, as if

363
00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:25.160
to remind everyone who was in control. I think that's

364
00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:28.440
one of the worst things you can do to someone. Yeah, absolutely,

365
00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:32.880
you should always reprimand someone in private. It wasn't just

366
00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:36.359
her temperament that repelled people, It was also her disregard

367
00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:39.839
for basic hygiene. She was known to bring paperwork into

368
00:17:39.880 --> 00:17:43.599
the bathroom with her and then handed directly to staff afterward.

369
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:48.000
One employee began spring anything she touched with lysol before

370
00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:52.359
handling it, and yet her employees stayed. Why because she

371
00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:55.839
paid well, far better than any other agency in the area.

372
00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:59.279
For many, the money outweighed the misery. At least for

373
00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:02.880
a while. Donna had a particular disdain for anyone she

374
00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:06.400
saw as smarter or more experienced than she was. At

375
00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:11.279
one point, a major corporation expressed interest in buying HHCs,

376
00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:14.720
an acquisition that could have set her up financially for life.

377
00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:17.960
But when the accountants and consultants arrived to conduct their

378
00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:23.240
due diligence, Donna torched the opportunity. She was abrasive and aggressive,

379
00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:26.720
swearing at them so freely it felt theatrical, like she

380
00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:29.839
was trying to blow it up. And that's exactly what happened.

381
00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:33.759
The deal collapsed. Whatever Donna wanted, she wanted it on

382
00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:37.079
her terms, and if things didn't go her way, there

383
00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:40.319
was always someone else to blame. We'll be back after

384
00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:51.640
a break. In October nineteen ninety seven, George Fulton was

385
00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:54.480
on a business trip in Florida. Not far from his

386
00:18:54.519 --> 00:18:57.440
hotel was a run down local dive bar called the

387
00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:00.680
Seagull Bar. One evening, looking for a dream and maybe

388
00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:03.920
at distraction, he wandered in. That's where he saw her,

389
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:08.519
forty four year old Donna Trapani, sitting alone at the bar. George,

390
00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:11.480
never short on confidence, walked right up and asked her

391
00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:14.799
to dance. She turned him down flatly, saying she didn't

392
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:18.039
like the song that was playing. Undeterred, he asked again

393
00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:21.839
when the next song came on, then again, three times,

394
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:25.640
three rejections. Finally he leaned in and said, quote, when

395
00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:28.119
you hear a song you like, you come and get me.

396
00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:32.400
A few minutes later, Caribbean Queen by Billy Ocean came on,

397
00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:35.559
and who can resist that sign? Of course, Donna got up,

398
00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:39.079
found George and pulled him onto the dance floor. They danced,

399
00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:41.759
then they talked, and then they went their separate ways.

400
00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:44.720
Two weeks later, on Halloween night, they ran into each

401
00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:49.319
other again, same bar, same spark. This time they stayed longer.

402
00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:53.200
They drank, they danced, they laughed. George fell a connection.

403
00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:57.519
Donna wasn't just attractive, she was accomplished. She ran her

404
00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:02.160
own company. She had power and fire, the kind of

405
00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:06.480
drive George admired and craved to him. Donna was everything

406
00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:12.559
Gail wasn't. Gail was quiet, self sacrificing, supportive to a fault. Donna,

407
00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:17.160
on the other hand, was bold, direct, unapologetically in control.

408
00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:20.680
That night, they made out in Donna's car before heading

409
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:23.279
back to George's hotel. It's funny that you use the

410
00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:23.960
word made out.

411
00:20:24.119 --> 00:20:26.440
I know, it kind of sounds like teenagers, doesn't it.

412
00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:29.200
Just before they got to the room, George paused and

413
00:20:29.240 --> 00:20:32.000
told her that one thing he hadn't yet mentioned he

414
00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:34.559
was married. Did he not have a ring? You probably

415
00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:37.319
don't know that, probably don't know that. He said the

416
00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:40.119
marriage was over and all but name, and that he'd

417
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:43.960
been unhappy for years. Donna didn't walk away. The next day,

418
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:46.880
they met for lunch. From that point on, the relationship

419
00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:50.079
took off, with George stepping deeper into a double life

420
00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:52.559
and Donna welcoming him into hers.

421
00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:56.480
George spent most of November in Florida for work and

422
00:20:56.599 --> 00:20:59.640
nearly every evening with Donna. When he returned to Michigan

423
00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:02.519
just beare for Thanksgiving, Gail and the kids didn't notice

424
00:21:02.519 --> 00:21:05.160
anything out of the ordinary. George was always a bit

425
00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:09.160
reserved and a little irritable. Nothing seemed different. While apart,

426
00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:12.839
George and Donna kept in close contact by phone facts

427
00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:15.880
and email sign up. There are a lot of their

428
00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:20.039
correspondence was over a fax machine, which I find really funny.

429
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:23.000
Donna was the more expressive of the two, sending long,

430
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:27.400
often steamy notes filled with fantasies and affection. She flattered

431
00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:30.640
George's ego, praising his prowess in bed and telling him

432
00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:33.559
how much she missed him. George was more guarded, but

433
00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:36.519
on December nineteenth he let his guard slip and he

434
00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:39.359
told Donna that he loved her. Around that time, their

435
00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:43.440
conversations shifted from passion to business. Donna asked George if

436
00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:46.519
he would consider working for her full time. She needed

437
00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:50.440
someone with financial expertise, and George fit the bill. At first,

438
00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:53.440
they went back and forth about logistics and titles, but

439
00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:56.599
in January nineteen ninety eight, George agreed to start his

440
00:21:56.680 --> 00:22:00.440
own company and act as a private contractor for HHS. Yes.

441
00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:03.839
It gave him the illusion of independence, his long desired

442
00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:06.799
dream of running a business, when in reality he was

443
00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:10.039
working full time for Donna. The plan was for George

444
00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:12.839
to travel to Florida twice a month and work remotely

445
00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:15.559
the rest of the time. That same month, Donna made

446
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:18.839
a clean break. She kicked Chuck out and filed for divorce.

447
00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:24.359
Chuck moved back to Louisiana. Donna was all in on George. George, however,

448
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:27.680
wasn't quite as decisive. He told Donna he loved her,

449
00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:30.720
He made promises, but when it came to ending things

450
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:34.440
with Gail, he stalled. To complicate matters, Donna was now

451
00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:37.640
his employer. George set up a business line at home

452
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:40.559
and converted part of the basement into an office. He

453
00:22:40.599 --> 00:22:45.079
and Donna spoke frequently, some calls about business, many more personal.

454
00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:47.960
When she couldn't reach him on his direct line, she'd

455
00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:50.960
call the house. Occasionally Gail or one of the kids

456
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:54.319
would answer. Donna didn't try to hide her presence as

457
00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:57.680
George's boss. Her calls weren't unusual, but no one in

458
00:22:57.720 --> 00:23:00.839
the Fulton household liked her. When she with the kids,

459
00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:04.640
especially Emily, she would act all friendly, asking questions about

460
00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:07.440
school and home life. It was almost like Donna was

461
00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:10.839
acting like she wanted to be friends with Emily. Emily

462
00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:14.200
was polite, but she was wary. Over time, she began

463
00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:17.319
to suspect the truth her father was having an affair.

464
00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:19.640
So Emily was more perceptive than Gail.

465
00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:22.799
I think Emily was very perceptive. It could also be

466
00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:24.960
that Gail was in denial a little bit. I think

467
00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:28.319
she probably didn't want to believe that. Well.

468
00:23:28.359 --> 00:23:31.480
Earlier, you said that Gail was going through a hard time, right.

469
00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:33.559
I think with the move, she was feeling a little

470
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:34.319
depressed and she.

471
00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:37.400
Isolated her own fog and might never realized what was

472
00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:37.720
going on.

473
00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:39.960
That could be as well, and I think over time

474
00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:42.160
I think it became more apparent, but it was never

475
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:46.799
discussed openly in the household. At HHCs, George was well liked.

476
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:51.160
He was calm, competent, and approachable, everything that Donna wasn't.

477
00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:54.759
Employees found him steady and professional. They knew about his

478
00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:57.480
relationship with Donna, and they knew that he was married,

479
00:23:57.559 --> 00:24:00.720
but they assumed he and his wife were separated. Meanwhile,

480
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:05.240
Donna's feelings for George deepened quickly and intensely. She talked

481
00:24:05.240 --> 00:24:08.240
about him constantly, gushing to her staff about how perfect

482
00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:10.880
he was. When George wasn't in town, it was as

483
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:13.720
if she couldn't think of anything else. Through the winter

484
00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:17.680
and into early spring of nineteen ninety eight, the affair intensified.

485
00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:21.680
George continued his bi monthly trips to Florida and went apart.

486
00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:25.119
The two exchanged long letters, emails, and faxes.

487
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:29.279
Sending your love letter by facts is probably not the best.

488
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:29.440
Thing to do.

489
00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:31.400
Why not? I can't imagine.

490
00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:33.559
Okay, so I'm old enough. I worked in an office

491
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:36.640
where we had a fax machine and in case anyone

492
00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:39.319
has forgotten or doesn't know the facts, just they all

493
00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:42.240
came in and they sat on the fax machine all day.

494
00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:45.519
And so you know, Sally in accounting would come over

495
00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:47.240
and be like, oh, did you get my facts? And

496
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:49.480
then she would have to shift through all the papers,

497
00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:52.759
and you know, unless you knew the facts was coming, yeah,

498
00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:54.480
you know, it would be a little bit dangerous.

499
00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:56.680
Well, George had a fact in his home office, and

500
00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:59.480
I think Donna was the one who sent the longer,

501
00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:03.359
more rambling kind of letters, so I think he probably

502
00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:04.559
got those. But yeah, you're right.

503
00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:08.400
Still, it's leaving a paper trail. Yeah, that's always dangerous.

504
00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:10.960
You know, where an email is easier to delete or hide.

505
00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:12.920
You know, once you have that paper, it's like, unless

506
00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:14.480
you're going to burn it, it's there.

507
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:17.359
Yeah, for sure. Their relationship went on this way for

508
00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:20.079
a while, but Donna wanted more. She had left her

509
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:23.240
husband and changed her life. She expected George to do

510
00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:26.279
the same. But for George, it wasn't that simple. He

511
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:29.119
had two kids still in high school. He felt pressure

512
00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:31.759
to maintain the appearance of a good husband and father,

513
00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:35.519
especially in the eyes of his large, conservative Catholic family.

514
00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:38.640
Divorce wasn't just a personal decision. It would be a

515
00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:39.559
public failure.

516
00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:43.319
Oh gosh, not the Catholic man not wanting a divorce.

517
00:25:43.640 --> 00:25:46.079
Yeah. He told Donna that he loved her, but he

518
00:25:46.119 --> 00:25:48.839
also made it clear he could never bring another woman

519
00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:52.359
home to meet his mother. Donna claimed to understand, but

520
00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:56.119
her patience was wearing thin. Whenever George mentioned Gail, it

521
00:25:56.200 --> 00:25:59.440
sent her into a quiet rage. In Donna's mind, Gail

522
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:02.240
wasn't just his wife, she was the one thing standing

523
00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:05.640
in the way of Donna's future. By April, Donna delivered

524
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:09.799
an ultimatum she needed a timeline. George stalled. He wrote

525
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:12.759
her a long emotional letter, assuring her of his love

526
00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:16.680
and explaining that he was wrestling with complicated feelings. He

527
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:18.799
told her he just needed a little more time to

528
00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:22.000
as he put it set the end in motion. By

529
00:26:22.119 --> 00:26:25.119
May of nineteen ninety eight, George said he was ready.

530
00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:28.160
He promised Donna not only his love, but his full

531
00:26:28.200 --> 00:26:31.319
professional commitment as well. He would take on the role

532
00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:35.400
of chief financial officer at HHCs, and he would relocate

533
00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:36.880
to Florida to be with her.

534
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:40.119
Can you give us an idea of how big hh

535
00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:40.920
CS was.

536
00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:43.920
I'm really not sure how big. I know that Donna

537
00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:48.000
employed a number of nurses and LPNs that would go

538
00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:50.440
out to houses. I'm not sure how many people, but

539
00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:52.480
I think it was. You know, it might have been

540
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:54.279
small in terms of the number of people, but it

541
00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:58.039
was probably pretty decent sized in terms of finances because

542
00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:00.279
it was a Medicare medicaid shop and they did a

543
00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:03.160
lot of work in like billing Medicare Medicaid for the

544
00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:05.759
services they offered, so there must have been a fair

545
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:08.240
amount of money pouring in. At one point, at least

546
00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:11.519
in May nineteen ninety eight, Donna came to Michigan to

547
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:15.079
help George pack together. They loaded his belongings into a

548
00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:17.480
U haul. By this point, things at the house in

549
00:27:17.559 --> 00:27:21.119
Lake Orion had become tense and painful. George still hadn't

550
00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:23.799
admitted to the affair, but the truth was obvious, at

551
00:27:23.880 --> 00:27:27.240
least to Emily and Andrew. Gail perhaps was still clinging

552
00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:30.559
to denial, but Emily fought with her father more often,

553
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:35.440
and Andrew withdrew into himself. Gail grew increasingly despondent as

554
00:27:35.480 --> 00:27:38.720
George prepared to leave. Gail and Emily broke down in tears,

555
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:41.920
begging him not to go, but George was unmoved. He

556
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:44.720
told them it wasn't permanent, just a temporary move to

557
00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:47.759
get his new business started. Some time apart, he said,

558
00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:51.119
might even help his relationship with Gail. He insisted it

559
00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:54.279
wasn't the end. George was trying to have it both ways.

560
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:56.920
This is a constant pattern with George. Like he tells

561
00:27:56.960 --> 00:27:59.640
Donna one thing that he loves her and he wants

562
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:02.160
to be with her. Then he tells Gail that, oh,

563
00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:04.200
I have to go to Florida. I have to live

564
00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:06.240
there to get my business started. But it's not the end.

565
00:28:06.599 --> 00:28:09.480
Don't worry. It just seems like he was either completely

566
00:28:09.480 --> 00:28:11.839
indecisive or just wanted to have it both ways.

567
00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:15.680
He was maing them, yeh yes, pretty much.

568
00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:18.880
In Florida, he moved in with Donna, but he didn't

569
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:22.200
tell his family that. Instead, he claimed that the apartment

570
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:25.079
he was renting didn't have a phone. If they needed

571
00:28:25.079 --> 00:28:27.799
to reach him, they'd have to call the HHCs office

572
00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:31.720
during business hours. He continued returning to Michigan regularly, but

573
00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:35.680
those visits became less frequent as the summer wore on. Meanwhile,

574
00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:40.160
he and Donna were traveling together to business conferences, weekend getaways,

575
00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:43.799
mini vacations that felt more like honeymoons. But the more

576
00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:46.640
time George spent with Donna, the more cracks he began

577
00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:50.799
to see. He noticed how she treated people, weight staff, cashiers,

578
00:28:50.839 --> 00:28:54.559
hotel employees. Anyone in a job that she considered beneath

579
00:28:54.559 --> 00:28:57.759
her was subject to condescension and scorn. There was a

580
00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:00.720
coldness in her, a sense of entitlement that George hadn't

581
00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:03.279
seen it first, and once he saw it, he couldn't

582
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:03.880
unsee it.

583
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:07.000
If you're ever at dinner with a friend and you

584
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:09.880
see them treat the white staff poorly, it just really

585
00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:12.279
tells you everything you need to know about that person.

586
00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:14.279
Yeah, it really such a low tolerance for that, oh,

587
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:17.519
totally kind of behavior. As summer turned to fall, George

588
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:19.640
began to lean back toward the life that he had

589
00:29:19.720 --> 00:29:23.039
left behind. He returned to Michigan in September to celebrate

590
00:29:23.079 --> 00:29:27.119
Gayle's birthday, a visit that enraged Donna. While he was gone,

591
00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:30.640
she filled her journal with bitter invectives against Gail, painting

592
00:29:30.680 --> 00:29:35.160
her as manipulative and selfish. Still, on Halloween, George was

593
00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:38.680
back in Florida, celebrating his one year anniversary with Donna

594
00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:41.799
at a resort. Then came Thanksgiving, and George was back

595
00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:44.880
in Lake Orion, carving the turkey with his wife and children.

596
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:45.960
Oh boy, George.

597
00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:48.880
The tug of war continued. He returned to Florida in

598
00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:51.839
early December, then flew back to Michigan for the holidays.

599
00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:55.839
Donna was livid. She called during Christmas and claimed that

600
00:29:55.880 --> 00:29:58.920
there was an emergency at the company, something only George

601
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:02.000
could fix. Caught a flight back the next day, only

602
00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:06.319
to discover there was no emergency, just Donna needing control.

603
00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:10.279
In private, George confessed that he was torn. He told

604
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:12.640
Donna he loved her and wanted a future with her,

605
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:15.720
but he couldn't bring himself to fully walk away. He

606
00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:18.880
worried about his kids hating him. He feared that divorcing

607
00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:22.440
Gail might push her over the edge. Her depression had worsened,

608
00:30:22.759 --> 00:30:26.559
she had stopped eating, cried constantly, and had made vague,

609
00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:30.200
frightening references to suicide. But Gail kept most of her

610
00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:33.559
pain to herself, burying it deep where it only festered.

611
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:38.000
Donna saw all of this as emotional manipulation. In her journal,

612
00:30:38.359 --> 00:30:41.599
she accused Gail of blackmail, writing that it was quote

613
00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:45.279
the worst kind of crime, even worse than murder. She

614
00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:48.000
blamed Gail entirely for standing in the way of her

615
00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:49.200
happiness with George.

616
00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:51.960
It's easy for us as we tell these stories because

617
00:30:51.960 --> 00:30:55.240
we have perspective. But Donna was never going to be

618
00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:58.480
happy with George. He was too wishy washy for her,

619
00:30:58.680 --> 00:30:59.480
don't you think?

620
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:02.680
Yeah, I do think that. I think Donna wasn't going

621
00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:04.319
to be happy with anything Sue.

622
00:31:04.599 --> 00:31:06.960
It was more likely that she wanted to win than

623
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:07.720
be with him.

624
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:10.759
Yes, I think it's a good observation for reasons that

625
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:14.200
are baffling and I will never understand. Donna decided to

626
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:17.759
write a letter to George's seventeen year old son Andrew.

627
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:21.200
In it, she painted herself and George as victims. She

628
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:23.839
wrote that no one in the family truly understood the

629
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:27.079
suffering that George had endured over the years after the

630
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:30.000
children were born. She claimed Gail had stopped being a

631
00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:32.920
wife and was only a mother. Donna insisted that she

632
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:36.759
and George shared a deep, passionate love. She encouraged Andrew

633
00:31:36.799 --> 00:31:39.680
to support his father and talk to his mother. She

634
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:43.400
said that Gail needed professional help and should stop blackmailing

635
00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:46.839
George into staying. It's unclear what Andrew did with this letter,

636
00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:50.400
but shortly after Gail showed up at the library in tears,

637
00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:54.319
the damn had finally broken. She confided in a coworker

638
00:31:54.359 --> 00:31:56.839
that she had just found out the truth. George was

639
00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:59.720
having an affair with his boss in Florida, and now

640
00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:02.839
it like divorce was inevitable. I think she must have

641
00:32:03.160 --> 00:32:06.279
suspected it for a long time, but then this letter

642
00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:08.480
that Andrew got. I'm sure he showed it to her

643
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:08.880
and that.

644
00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:12.359
Was verified her worst fears. Yeah, why would she write

645
00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:14.559
a letter to a seventeen year old.

646
00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:18.160
Is one of the many baffling things that Donna Trapani did.

647
00:32:18.400 --> 00:32:20.799
I mean, poor Andrew probably had no idea what to

648
00:32:20.839 --> 00:32:23.000
do with that information. No, I know, it's a horrible

649
00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:23.920
position to put him in.

650
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:24.759
Yeah, for sure.

651
00:32:25.079 --> 00:32:28.000
Through the winter of nineteen ninety nine, George began showing

652
00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:30.319
signs that he might want to work things out with Gail.

653
00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:33.079
He was spending more time at home, and there were moments,

654
00:32:33.319 --> 00:32:36.160
small ones, but noticeable, when it seemed like he was

655
00:32:36.200 --> 00:32:39.000
trying to repair what had been broken. But at the

656
00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:41.920
same time, he was still talking to Donna, still telling

657
00:32:41.960 --> 00:32:45.759
her there was hope that maybe somehow things between them

658
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:48.920
could still work out. He was playing both sides, and

659
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:52.400
Donna could feel it. Sensing George slipping away, she ramped

660
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:55.400
up her efforts to hold on. She began calling George's

661
00:32:55.400 --> 00:32:58.680
house more frequently, sometimes just to talk, other times to

662
00:32:58.759 --> 00:33:01.759
harass when the kids bore the brunt of it. The

663
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:06.920
calls were persistent, unwelcome, and unsettling. Around this time, Gale

664
00:33:06.920 --> 00:33:09.720
confided in her friend. She said George was trying to

665
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:12.759
end things with Donna, but that Donna wasn't letting go.

666
00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:16.799
She described Donna as obsessed, and in many ways she was.

667
00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:20.480
Even though the romantic relationship was crumbling, George and Donna

668
00:33:20.519 --> 00:33:23.480
still had a business tie, which kept the door cracked

669
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:28.519
open and the tension alive. Meanwhile, Donna's professional life was

670
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:32.359
falling apart. Her mismanagement of h h c S had

671
00:33:32.440 --> 00:33:35.680
finally caught up to her. The business, once full of promise,

672
00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:39.119
was bleeding money. By early nineteen ninety nine, it was

673
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:42.200
clear the company was going under. It was no longer

674
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:45.759
a question of if only. When on March twenty third,

675
00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:49.519
George submitted his resignation. His official last day would be

676
00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:52.960
April sixteenth, but he agreed to continue helping remotely from

677
00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:56.359
Michigan for a limited time. Even then, he tried to

678
00:33:56.359 --> 00:33:59.680
cushion the blow. He told Donna the relationship wasn't over,

679
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:03.839
not completely, but his actions said otherwise, and Donna could

680
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:09.199
feel the shift. She was losing him personally, professionally completely,

681
00:34:09.559 --> 00:34:12.480
and she was starting to get desperate. So Gail was

682
00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:15.199
willing to welcome George back with open arms.

683
00:34:15.639 --> 00:34:18.320
She was we'll see over and over again in the story.

684
00:34:18.360 --> 00:34:22.000
Gail was willing to forgive and forget whatever George did,

685
00:34:22.480 --> 00:34:25.039
right or wrong. She just wanted her marriage to work out.

686
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:27.960
It sounds like they really loved their family, and they

687
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:30.519
had good kids, and they enjoyed their time together.

688
00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:31.480
Yeah, for sure.

689
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:34.360
On the surface, Donna appeared to take George's return to

690
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:37.880
Michigan and his renewed focus on his family. In stride,

691
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:42.559
she acted calm, mature, even supportive, but beneath the surface,

692
00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:46.880
she was seething and plotting. In April, she sent Georgia

693
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:50.280
a letter that changed everything. She claimed she was pregnant,

694
00:34:50.599 --> 00:34:54.239
not only that, she was also dying of cancer.

695
00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:56.559
Oh, a double whammy, like Donna pick one.

696
00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:00.639
And just to prove how serious it was, a letter

697
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:04.639
supposedly signed by her doctor. It looked official. It was

698
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:08.239
meant to Donna is forty five, correct, and a forty

699
00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:11.119
five year old woman can get pregnant, for sure, but

700
00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:14.880
without medical intervention, it's unlikely you have a one to

701
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:19.119
five percent chance of having a natural pregnancy at that age.

702
00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:21.039
It's just statistically unlikely.

703
00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:22.920
Right. Well, that's a good point. And the other thing

704
00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:25.320
I was thinking about with this too, is she supposedly

705
00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:28.079
is dying of cancer as well. I don't know what

706
00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:31.320
kind of cancer she supposedly had, but I would think

707
00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:34.480
carrying a baby when you have cancer there's probably a

708
00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:36.960
lot of risks involved with that as well. Right.

709
00:35:37.079 --> 00:35:38.760
A lot of women do choose to do that, though.

710
00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:40.559
I just read a story the other day of a

711
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:43.360
woman that had sacrificed her own life. Yeah, for her baby.

712
00:35:43.639 --> 00:35:47.000
Donna knew exactly which emotional buttons to press. For all

713
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:51.320
of George's flaws, his deceit, his infidelity, his arrogance, he

714
00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:54.760
still considered himself a moral man, and if Donna was

715
00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:58.199
carrying his child, if she was truly dying, he couldn't

716
00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:01.400
just walk away. He needed time to think. A business

717
00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:04.840
trip to New Mexico, unrelated to Donna's company, seemed like

718
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:08.320
the perfect opportunity to clear his mind. So he put

719
00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:10.880
in his notice at Donna's company. But did he secure

720
00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:11.760
another job yet?

721
00:36:11.800 --> 00:36:13.760
Well, I think he had his own company. I don't

722
00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:15.800
know exactly what he was doing, but he may have

723
00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:16.679
been doing consulting.

724
00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:18.519
Oh, so he still had that company, I think so.

725
00:36:18.599 --> 00:36:19.079
Yeah.

726
00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:22.119
While George was in New Mexico, Donna had other plans

727
00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:26.360
for him. She showed up at his hotel, uninvited, unannounced.

728
00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:29.719
George didn't send her away. He later said he wanted to,

729
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:33.119
but that he was afraid she'd cause a scene, and besides,

730
00:36:33.159 --> 00:36:36.440
he admitted quote, I was weak for her. Oh. They

731
00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:39.880
spent the trip together. They slept together, and in Donna's mind,

732
00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:42.880
that meant the relationship was back on. For George, it

733
00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:46.159
wasn't so simple. He was tangled in guilt, confusion, and

734
00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:50.039
a twisted sense of responsibility. In June, he wrote Donna

735
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:53.920
a letter equal parts apology and confession. He admitted he

736
00:36:54.039 --> 00:36:56.880
had sent mixed signals, but he said he also still

737
00:36:56.960 --> 00:36:59.400
loved her. He said he was touched by the idea

738
00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:02.840
of her care ring his child a product of our love,

739
00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:05.280
as he put it, He promised to be there for her,

740
00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:08.400
to spend her final days by her side. He closed

741
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:11.000
the letter with the words, I will love you forever.

742
00:37:10.760 --> 00:37:11.320
My Donna.

743
00:37:11.559 --> 00:37:12.840
Oh isn't that beautiful?

744
00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:16.480
Despite Donna's illness, was she planning to carry the baby

745
00:37:16.519 --> 00:37:17.239
to term?

746
00:37:17.639 --> 00:37:20.519
Yes? I mean that was her plan, you know, for George,

747
00:37:20.559 --> 00:37:22.679
was that she would carry this baby and then she

748
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:25.639
was going to die soon after the baby was born,

749
00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:28.320
and George would be there to take care of the baby.

750
00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:30.760
Okay, we'll be back. After a break.

751
00:37:38.679 --> 00:37:41.679
Heading into the summer of nineteen ninety nine, Emily had

752
00:37:41.719 --> 00:37:44.960
just graduated high school and was preparing for college. But

753
00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:48.320
instead of enjoying her final teenage summer, she found herself

754
00:37:48.360 --> 00:37:51.679
helping care for her mother because Gail was falling apart again.

755
00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:55.079
She had seen this before the crying, the weight loss,

756
00:37:55.159 --> 00:37:58.800
the migraines, the talk of suicide. Gail was convinced that

757
00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:01.599
George was slipping away from her once more, and the

758
00:38:01.639 --> 00:38:05.280
emotional toll was crushing. Andrew and Emily spent their summer

759
00:38:05.320 --> 00:38:09.840
trying to lift her spirits movies, dinners, shopping trips, anything

760
00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:13.039
to distract her. Gail appreciated the effort, but it only

761
00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:15.960
made her feel worse. You should be out with your friends,

762
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:18.800
she told them, not your sad old mother. And then

763
00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:21.239
came what I like to refer to as the Fourth

764
00:38:21.239 --> 00:38:24.599
of July debacle. Buckle up, because this part of the

765
00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:29.519
story is crazy, okay. With Donna allegedly pregnant and supposedly

766
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:33.800
dying of cancer, George hatched an unthinkable plan. He decided

767
00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:36.239
the best course of action was for Donna and Gail

768
00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:37.960
to meet face to face.

769
00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:40.519
That sounds like a fabulous idea.

770
00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:41.920
I know what could go wrong.

771
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:43.719
As long as you have like a camera crew there

772
00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:44.480
to record it.

773
00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:47.960
They needed to talk things through. George thought he was

774
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:51.000
somehow convinced that if the two women sat down together,

775
00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:53.360
they could work out a way for Donna to carry

776
00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:56.800
the baby to term. And then, after Donna died, George

777
00:38:56.840 --> 00:38:59.760
and Gail would raise the child together. Donna flew to

778
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:02.480
Mind and checked into a room at the Concord Inn

779
00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:03.400
in Rochester Hills.

780
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:04.960
Oh my god, I know exactly where that is.

781
00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:09.239
I too too. Gail didn't want to go, but George insisted.

782
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:12.719
While waiting for them to arrive, Donna prepared writing out

783
00:39:12.760 --> 00:39:16.320
notes on hotel stationery to organize her pitch. Her plan

784
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:18.840
was to convince Gail to let George come back to

785
00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:21.480
Florida to stay with her until she gave birth and

786
00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:24.480
then died. Then he could return to Michigan with the

787
00:39:24.519 --> 00:39:27.679
baby and resume life with his wife. Simple.

788
00:39:28.119 --> 00:39:31.199
Up to this point, has George seen an ultrasound? Has

789
00:39:31.239 --> 00:39:34.239
he felt the baby move? Is she you know, showing

790
00:39:34.280 --> 00:39:35.559
a little pregnancy belly?

791
00:39:35.800 --> 00:39:39.320
I think you don't answered all those things, don't you? No, No,

792
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:42.960
and no, And I don't think he even really questioned

793
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:45.679
it that much up until this point, which is just

794
00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:49.639
I just don't understand how someone could be that clueless, Like,

795
00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:51.719
just knowing what you the little bit that you know

796
00:39:51.800 --> 00:39:55.719
about Donna Trapani so far, you would be on high

797
00:39:55.719 --> 00:39:58.320
alert that she was maybe lying about these things. But

798
00:39:58.360 --> 00:40:03.400
George was just completely okay. Donna's notes included a few

799
00:40:03.480 --> 00:40:07.280
key talking points. She blamed Gail for holding George back,

800
00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:11.079
for turning the kids against him, for nagging him about everything,

801
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:15.360
and in Donna's twisted fantasy, she and Gail would become friends.

802
00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:18.519
Donna would even help Gail get treatment for her depression.

803
00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:22.760
She knew people, after all, George. When George and Gail

804
00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:25.960
arrived and knocked on the motel room door, Donna asked

805
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:29.039
to speak to George alone. Gail, already on the verge

806
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:32.119
of tears, refused no, She said, you will not be

807
00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:35.960
alone with my husband George. Ever, the optimist suggested the

808
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:38.199
three of them go out for lunch just around the

809
00:40:38.199 --> 00:40:39.639
corner at the Olive Garden.

810
00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:42.639
And what can't be solved at the Olive Garden over

811
00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:45.280
endless soup, salad and breadsticks.

812
00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:48.960
Absolutely, it is hard for me to imagine a more

813
00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:52.960
awkward meal. After lunch, they returned to the motel. This time,

814
00:40:53.079 --> 00:40:55.920
Donna asked if she could speak to Gail woman to woman.

815
00:40:56.320 --> 00:40:59.360
George waited in the motel lobby. We don't know exactly

816
00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:01.840
what was said inside the room. All we have is

817
00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:06.320
Donna's account, and she's not exactly a reliable narrator. According

818
00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:09.159
to her, she rubbed her belly and told Gail, quote,

819
00:41:09.320 --> 00:41:12.519
this is your husband's love child. I love George, Gail,

820
00:41:12.760 --> 00:41:15.960
Why won't you just let this man go? Donna claimed

821
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:18.880
that Gail snapped back, I hope you lose your baby,

822
00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:22.639
which seems unlikely. Gail was a devout Catholic and by

823
00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:26.039
all accounts, a very kind hearted woman. A comment like

824
00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:29.000
that would have been very out of character, Donna said.

825
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:32.880
She then shouted, quote, you've had George for twenty five years, bitch,

826
00:41:33.039 --> 00:41:35.800
Now it's my turn. You got that. After I'm dead,

827
00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:38.480
you can have him back. What we do know is this.

828
00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:41.360
About ten minutes later, Gail burst out of the room

829
00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:44.360
in tears, with Donna chasing after her and grabbing at

830
00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:47.079
her blouse. Gail found George in the lobby and told

831
00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:50.159
him she wanted to go home, but Donna wasn't finished.

832
00:41:50.519 --> 00:41:53.400
She begged George to stay and talk. He asked Gail

833
00:41:53.480 --> 00:41:57.199
to wait just five minutes, he promised. Five minutes turned

834
00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:00.760
into an hour. Eventually, Gail left the motor but she

835
00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:04.639
didn't have a car. She found a payphone and called Emily, sobbing,

836
00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:08.239
Emily could barely understand her Gail told her that George

837
00:42:08.239 --> 00:42:10.760
had abandoned her at the motel, was going to leave

838
00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:14.000
the family, and that Donna was pregnant. Gaile believed that

839
00:42:14.079 --> 00:42:17.000
George had brought her to the motel just to humiliate her.

840
00:42:17.320 --> 00:42:20.079
She said she was going to walk home ten miles away,

841
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:23.079
and she did start walking, but a short while later,

842
00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:26.079
two cars pulled up behind Gail on the road. One

843
00:42:26.159 --> 00:42:28.840
was George, the other was Donna in her rental car.

844
00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:32.119
George convinced Gail to get in with him, but insisted

845
00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:34.559
they followed Donna back to the motel to make sure

846
00:42:34.599 --> 00:42:38.199
that she got there okay. Halfway there, Donna's car suddenly

847
00:42:38.280 --> 00:42:41.159
drifted off the road and came to a stop. George

848
00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:43.920
jumped out to check on her. Donna was slumped over

849
00:42:43.960 --> 00:42:47.400
in the driver's seat, seemingly disoriented. She told him she

850
00:42:47.480 --> 00:42:50.280
must have passed out. They got her back to the motel,

851
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:53.400
and then George drove Gail home to Lake Orion, but

852
00:42:53.719 --> 00:42:56.679
he didn't stay. He packed an overnight bag and told

853
00:42:56.719 --> 00:42:59.960
Gail he was going back to stay with Donna.

854
00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:00.719
Hacked George.

855
00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:06.079
I know, I just don't. I just don't get it.

856
00:43:06.519 --> 00:43:09.159
And the thing that is interesting to me and this

857
00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:12.119
is that Donna like she did really always know what

858
00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:15.039
button to push to get George to do what she wanted.

859
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:18.079
It does something she really did know that he was.

860
00:43:18.320 --> 00:43:20.480
He was easy to manipulate.

861
00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:22.960
Yes, for sure. Before George got the chance to leave

862
00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:25.559
and go back to the motel, Emily arrived home with

863
00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:28.599
a friend. She found her mother sobbing and her father

864
00:43:28.760 --> 00:43:32.239
sitting silently on the couch. Gail told her, quote, your

865
00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:34.719
father is leaving to take care of Donna because she

866
00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:37.920
has no one else. Emily looked at them, stunned. What

867
00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:41.800
are you talking about. She's pregnant, Emily, with your father's child,

868
00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:44.320
and she's dying. She'll be dead in a few months.

869
00:43:44.519 --> 00:43:46.840
Don't you think Emily was like, mom, this was on

870
00:43:47.079 --> 00:43:49.239
Days of our Lives. It was a storyline.

871
00:43:49.360 --> 00:43:52.840
Oh absolutely, I think Emily was all over. She knew

872
00:43:52.840 --> 00:43:54.480
exactly what Donna was all about, and she.

873
00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:56.599
Knew it does sound like Emily knew what was up.

874
00:43:56.760 --> 00:44:00.639
Yes, George, trying to defend himself, said quote, look, I

875
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:03.880
cannot have Donna commit suicide and have that on my hands.

876
00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:05.960
I won't let that happen. But at the same time,

877
00:44:06.039 --> 00:44:08.519
like Gail had talked of suicide as well, but George

878
00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:12.119
didn't really seem to care that much about Gail making

879
00:44:12.159 --> 00:44:15.719
those kind of threats. Emily wasn't having it. She left

880
00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:18.400
to drive her friend home, but really she went to

881
00:44:18.440 --> 00:44:22.679
confront Donna herself. She had another reason too, Emily she

882
00:44:22.760 --> 00:44:25.199
was very sensitive and she believed that she could read

883
00:44:25.239 --> 00:44:28.360
people's auras, and if she saw Donna in person, she

884
00:44:28.440 --> 00:44:30.280
thought she would be able to tell whether or not

885
00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:31.599
she was actually pregnant.

886
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:35.639
Or they could have said, hey, Donna, take this pregnancy test.

887
00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:38.400
I mean, Donna faxed a letter from her doctor, so

888
00:44:38.519 --> 00:44:42.000
isn't that enough for you. Emily and her friend drove

889
00:44:42.039 --> 00:44:46.000
to the concord in. Her friend waited outside. If Emily screamed,

890
00:44:46.199 --> 00:44:49.639
she would come running. To Emily's surprise, Donna welcomed her in.

891
00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:52.039
She was thrilled to see her, acting as if this

892
00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:55.199
were the beginning of a beautiful friendship. She even tried

893
00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:59.480
to hug Emily. Emily recoiled. Inside the room, Emily saw

894
00:44:59.519 --> 00:45:03.440
something sar Donna had created a shrine to George, a

895
00:45:03.519 --> 00:45:07.000
table covered in candles, cards, letters, and photos he had

896
00:45:07.039 --> 00:45:09.239
sent her. Emily froze the whole thing.

897
00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:10.000
Oh weird.

898
00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:13.519
It was very weird. The whole thing was surreal. All

899
00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:16.360
Emily could think was, this is who my father is

900
00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:20.199
having an affair with. Donna launched into a rant quote,

901
00:45:20.440 --> 00:45:23.000
your mother has had your father long enough. It's my

902
00:45:23.159 --> 00:45:26.679
turn now. You and your brother and mother never appreciated him.

903
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:29.280
But I know him better than any of you ever could.

904
00:45:29.480 --> 00:45:31.519
He loves me more than he loves any of you.

905
00:45:31.800 --> 00:45:34.960
Read the cards, look at the letters. He doesn't love you, Emily,

906
00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:36.000
he loves me.

907
00:45:36.519 --> 00:45:38.079
Oh, Donna, you're gross.

908
00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:42.119
Emily finally spoke, quote, you can't keep doing this. We

909
00:45:42.199 --> 00:45:44.800
want a family. It can't go on like this back

910
00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:48.119
and forth. Can you please just stay out of our lives.

911
00:45:48.519 --> 00:45:52.039
Donna replied, quote, don't worry. I'll be dead soon. You

912
00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:55.400
can have your father back after I'm gone. Emily didn't

913
00:45:55.440 --> 00:45:58.840
stay long after that. The whole encounter was too bizarre,

914
00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:02.239
too disturbing, and no, she didn't get a clear read

915
00:46:02.320 --> 00:46:05.679
on Donna's aura. George did stay with Donna that night,

916
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:08.800
but the next morning he returned home and told Gail

917
00:46:08.960 --> 00:46:11.559
it was over. He said he was done with Donna

918
00:46:11.880 --> 00:46:15.239
for good. This time. He would support the baby financially,

919
00:46:15.519 --> 00:46:18.519
but that was it. I'm afraid that's where we are

920
00:46:18.519 --> 00:46:20.199
going to have to leave it for part one.

921
00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:25.000
Great, thanks, thanks so much. What's stopping me from reading ahead?

922
00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:26.639
I have the whole script right here.

923
00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:28.800
I might take access back from you.

924
00:46:28.880 --> 00:46:30.920
I bet I know your Pasco.

925
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:34.480
What do you think about George so far?

926
00:46:35.480 --> 00:46:39.800
I mean, he's not a very good man the last

927
00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:42.559
case I did, I already mentioned Mark Girardo, But it

928
00:46:42.559 --> 00:46:46.119
does sound like he's like Mark Girardo, where he wants

929
00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:48.239
his cake and he wants to eat it too.

930
00:46:48.559 --> 00:46:49.840
Yeah, it does seem that way.

931
00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:51.239
Why do you think men do that?

932
00:46:51.480 --> 00:46:53.800
I don't know. It Just to me, George seems like

933
00:46:54.199 --> 00:46:57.159
very weak, Like it's it seems less about like him

934
00:46:57.199 --> 00:47:00.480
wanting to have both Gail and Donna and more like

935
00:47:00.519 --> 00:47:03.800
he just was too weak to make a commitment either way,

936
00:47:03.960 --> 00:47:06.519
Like he just kept going back and forth and couldn't

937
00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:09.400
he didn't want to reject anybody, but at the same

938
00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:11.719
time he made both of them feel terrible.

939
00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:13.719
You know, I don't think you're the kind of guy

940
00:47:13.800 --> 00:47:16.760
that would have an affair, But if you did, I

941
00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:18.719
think that you would there would be things that you

942
00:47:18.760 --> 00:47:21.639
would miss about our relationship because we've been together for

943
00:47:21.639 --> 00:47:24.800
so long, and I think that I offer you look

944
00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:25.760
in your faith. Maybe I don't.

945
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:29.000
I'm just where you're going with this there, but go ahead.

946
00:47:29.159 --> 00:47:31.400
Just that I think that there's, you know, a comfort

947
00:47:31.480 --> 00:47:33.239
even if you are in love with someone else, there's

948
00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:35.360
a comfort with the spouse that you've been with for

949
00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:38.920
twenty five plus years. Sure, and there's you know, just

950
00:47:39.559 --> 00:47:43.400
the predictable nature and just comfort. And am I flattering

951
00:47:43.400 --> 00:47:44.199
myself or.

952
00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:46.039
No, No, not at all. I think that. I think

953
00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:48.400
that's true in a lot of relationships, Like if you've

954
00:47:48.400 --> 00:47:50.480
been with someone for a long time, there is a

955
00:47:50.559 --> 00:47:52.360
level of comfort there. But then at the same time,

956
00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:55.000
I think a lot of men stray because they also

957
00:47:55.360 --> 00:47:58.519
want some spark and something new, you know, something different,

958
00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:01.119
And I think George, maybe you know, he'd like both

959
00:48:01.159 --> 00:48:04.360
of those things. Maybe Gail, as we've talked about, was

960
00:48:04.519 --> 00:48:08.480
very much a traditional wife. She wanted to support her man,

961
00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:11.719
stand behind him no matter what. She was ready to

962
00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:15.400
kind of forgive him and forget anything that he did wrong.

963
00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:18.119
Looking back, like, I know we haven't finished the case yet,

964
00:48:18.159 --> 00:48:20.840
but what do you think Gail could have done differently

965
00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:23.000
to maybe change the dynamic.

966
00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:26.039
I've had talks with friends about this, or if we

967
00:48:26.119 --> 00:48:28.519
know that someone else is having affair. A lot of

968
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:31.280
people will say, oh, I could never forgive an affair,

969
00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:33.800
or you know, I'd kick him out so fast, you know,

970
00:48:33.800 --> 00:48:36.440
blah blah blah. But until you're in that position, I

971
00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:39.320
don't think you really know how you would react, right,

972
00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:42.360
And if you don't have children, it might be a

973
00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:45.920
different dynamic too, because most of us are. We'd hate

974
00:48:45.960 --> 00:48:48.920
to tear apart our families. Yeah, and I think most

975
00:48:48.920 --> 00:48:53.639
people in today's world try to reconcile and try to

976
00:48:53.639 --> 00:48:55.360
work things out after having an affair.

977
00:48:55.559 --> 00:48:58.199
Yeah. And I'm sure from Gail's perspective too, she was

978
00:48:58.239 --> 00:49:00.840
probably really scared of being a like they had just

979
00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:03.760
made this move to a different place. She didn't know anyone.

980
00:49:03.800 --> 00:49:07.519
Her kids were, you know, growing up almost to the

981
00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:09.480
point where they were out on their own, so she

982
00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:11.800
was probably very fearful of being alone.

983
00:49:12.360 --> 00:49:15.320
And George was playing both sides. He never said, you know,

984
00:49:15.400 --> 00:49:17.599
I really think that Donna is the one for me.

985
00:49:18.039 --> 00:49:20.199
I want to start my life with her and end

986
00:49:20.199 --> 00:49:23.039
things with you, because he was giving her false hope

987
00:49:23.079 --> 00:49:24.559
that they had a future together.

988
00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:26.639
Yeah, he was just so wishy washy.

989
00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:28.719
One more thing, I just want to give a shout

990
00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:31.639
out to women aged forty five to fifty five because

991
00:49:31.719 --> 00:49:34.679
we go through a lot and so many of these

992
00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:38.440
cases involve women in that age, and I think men

993
00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:41.920
start realizing that they have it might be their last

994
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:45.880
chance to leave and start a new life. And I

995
00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:47.360
think it just happens a lot.

996
00:49:47.400 --> 00:49:49.199
Doesn't it. It does seem to Yeah.

997
00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:50.079
Can you explain why.

998
00:49:50.280 --> 00:49:52.440
I can't explain why because I don't understand it, but

999
00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:54.039
it does seem to happen a lot. That that is

1000
00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:57.400
sort of the age range when men may tend to stray.

1001
00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:00.280
Tell me if I'm flattering myself, but I I feel

1002
00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:03.480
like marriage kind of gets good. Then your kids are

1003
00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:05.760
older and you have more freedom and you could just

1004
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:08.400
spend more time together and you don't have to worry

1005
00:50:08.440 --> 00:50:10.519
so much. If you're lucky to your finances are a

1006
00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:13.519
little more secure, right, you might have time for, you know,

1007
00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:16.360
more getaways. And I still think you have a lot

1008
00:50:16.400 --> 00:50:17.320
of life to look forward to.

1009
00:50:17.400 --> 00:50:19.960
Yeah, I absolutely think that. And I think that it

1010
00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:22.679
really depends on your mindset. We've talked about this before,

1011
00:50:22.719 --> 00:50:24.920
but I think your mindset in a marriage, like you

1012
00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:27.800
have to realize things are going to change over the years, right,

1013
00:50:27.840 --> 00:50:29.760
your kids are going to get older, they're going to

1014
00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:32.360
move out, they're going to go onto their own lives.

1015
00:50:32.360 --> 00:50:35.079
And if you're not prepared to like for your lives

1016
00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:37.599
to adapt and the way that you relate to each

1017
00:50:37.639 --> 00:50:40.320
other to adapt, then you might be in for trouble.

1018
00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:42.559
But I think if you're open and you know that, hey,

1019
00:50:42.559 --> 00:50:44.360
things are going to change over the years. I'm going

1020
00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:47.440
to change, You're going to change, situations are going to change,

1021
00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:49.960
then I think it does get better. My last question

1022
00:50:50.039 --> 00:50:52.280
for you is about the Olive Garden. What is your

1023
00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:54.239
favorite thing to get at the Olive Garden?

1024
00:50:54.440 --> 00:50:56.079
Well, how would I know? You never take me to

1025
00:50:56.199 --> 00:50:57.119
nice places?

1026
00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:01.239
Oh, that is not true at all. We haven't been

1027
00:51:01.280 --> 00:51:02.559
to the Olive Garden for a long time.

1028
00:51:02.639 --> 00:51:06.480
We haven't, but we're older, and the Olive Garden used

1029
00:51:06.519 --> 00:51:08.079
to be like a really nice place to go.

1030
00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:10.039
It was like when you wanted to go somewhere a

1031
00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:11.159
little bit of a step up.

1032
00:51:11.079 --> 00:51:14.079
Because they had so many first dates at the Olive Garden.

1033
00:51:14.119 --> 00:51:16.400
It was just kind of where you would go. Yeah,

1034
00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:17.920
but I think I like the Tour of Italy.

1035
00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:19.519
The Tour of Italy.

1036
00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:20.480
They still have that.

1037
00:51:20.599 --> 00:51:21.400
I have no idea.

1038
00:51:21.519 --> 00:51:24.400
It's like twenty thousand calories. But I think I really

1039
00:51:24.440 --> 00:51:26.840
like fetich. There's some foods that we just don't really

1040
00:51:26.840 --> 00:51:29.880
eat at our house. No one likes feta chini eel fredo,

1041
00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:34.199
but me and no one really liked lazan. You like lazagna,

1042
00:51:34.599 --> 00:51:37.840
but I don't really make it at home because the

1043
00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:40.199
kids don't really like it. So I like to take

1044
00:51:40.280 --> 00:51:46.320
it chiel fredo. You. I'm surprised we don't eat there

1045
00:51:46.320 --> 00:51:47.920
more often, because you actually really love it.

1046
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:50.599
I really love their minnestroni soup. I love the soup,

1047
00:51:50.639 --> 00:51:52.679
salad and breadsticks. I don't know why it's such a

1048
00:51:52.679 --> 00:51:55.440
good It's such a good meal, and it's like all

1049
00:51:55.480 --> 00:51:56.840
you can eat and go.

1050
00:51:56.920 --> 00:51:59.199
Fund me so fun to me, to said Rich and

1051
00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:02.519
Tea Tina's big night out.

1052
00:52:04.679 --> 00:52:14.360
That sounds good because this case took place in Lake Orion, which,

1053
00:52:14.519 --> 00:52:17.039
as I mentioned earlier, my grandma lived in Lake Orion.

1054
00:52:17.360 --> 00:52:19.039
I used to go to her house every Sunday. I

1055
00:52:19.079 --> 00:52:22.000
was thinking a lot about those days growing up in

1056
00:52:22.039 --> 00:52:25.000
my grandma. So my grandma, she and my grandpa lived

1057
00:52:25.039 --> 00:52:27.800
in They lived in an old house in Rochester, Michigan,

1058
00:52:27.960 --> 00:52:30.440
and then my grandpa passed away, and I think my

1059
00:52:30.519 --> 00:52:34.039
grandma must have had good life insurance or something, because

1060
00:52:34.239 --> 00:52:37.039
she proceeded to build her dream house in Lake Orion.

1061
00:52:37.239 --> 00:52:38.920
And I don't think you you never went there. I

1062
00:52:38.920 --> 00:52:41.280
don't think you met her once, right, but I don't

1063
00:52:41.320 --> 00:52:42.280
think you went to her house.

1064
00:52:42.400 --> 00:52:45.800
Yeah, No, I think I did, Okay.

1065
00:52:45.559 --> 00:52:48.119
Yeah, because it was she had this house built and

1066
00:52:48.159 --> 00:52:50.920
it was up on a big hill, on this huge

1067
00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:53.760
piece of property, and it was the craziest house. It

1068
00:52:53.840 --> 00:52:57.079
had like a spiral staircase up from the basement to

1069
00:52:57.159 --> 00:53:00.000
the main floor, and she had like beads instead of

1070
00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:02.559
doors over a lot of the doorways. Like she was

1071
00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:05.480
kind of like she was pretty hip as a grandma,

1072
00:53:05.559 --> 00:53:08.239
I think, and she had it decorated with a whole

1073
00:53:08.280 --> 00:53:11.400
bunch of like Japanese art everywhere. She was kind of

1074
00:53:11.400 --> 00:53:14.039
a character. But she was my mom's mom, and my

1075
00:53:14.079 --> 00:53:16.920
mom had like six or seven brothers and sisters. It

1076
00:53:16.960 --> 00:53:19.280
was a pretty big family, and they all had kids

1077
00:53:19.280 --> 00:53:22.000
who were a similar age to me. So we would

1078
00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:24.119
go there every Sunday and we would like I would

1079
00:53:24.119 --> 00:53:26.559
just hang out with my cousins explore the property, and

1080
00:53:26.559 --> 00:53:29.039
it was like it was really a magical place for me.

1081
00:53:29.159 --> 00:53:31.119
Like when I look back on it. It had this special

1082
00:53:31.480 --> 00:53:33.719
meaning for me. And at one point of going to

1083
00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:36.719
my grandma's my aunt who was much younger than my mom,

1084
00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:39.639
she had a pet skunk, which was really cool. And

1085
00:53:39.639 --> 00:53:42.519
my uncle he had like more records than you would

1086
00:53:42.519 --> 00:53:44.400
find in a record store. He was in a band,

1087
00:53:44.480 --> 00:53:47.119
and so I just loved going there. Every Sunday. I

1088
00:53:47.159 --> 00:53:49.159
was looking on Google Maps to see if the house

1089
00:53:49.360 --> 00:53:51.599
was still there, but I think I think someone tore

1090
00:53:51.639 --> 00:53:54.519
it down and rebuilt it. It was a really unique house,

1091
00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:57.480
but I don't think it was super high quality, well built,

1092
00:53:57.639 --> 00:54:00.199
and it was very like seventies ish, like, it had

1093
00:54:00.199 --> 00:54:02.239
a very seventies kind of vibe to it.

1094
00:54:02.480 --> 00:54:04.760
Was You was that the grandma that was a mail carrier?

1095
00:54:05.119 --> 00:54:07.239
She was, and my grandpa was as well. Yeah, and

1096
00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:09.239
your dad was My dad was as well. Yeah.

1097
00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:13.840
Crazy. I have found myself feeling a little nostalgic lately. Yeah,

1098
00:54:13.880 --> 00:54:15.880
and it not even for like times when I was

1099
00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:18.119
a kid, but times when you could go to like

1100
00:54:18.280 --> 00:54:22.679
Bedmath and Beyond or Toys r Us.

1101
00:54:23.320 --> 00:54:24.880
Yeah, when they were actually stores.

1102
00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:28.440
The actually there's so acute stores. Now. I need a

1103
00:54:28.480 --> 00:54:31.480
new pillow I've been. I don't want to talk about

1104
00:54:31.519 --> 00:54:33.440
this too much. But you used to be able to

1105
00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:35.320
go to bed, Bath and Beyond and there were three

1106
00:54:35.360 --> 00:54:38.280
hundred pillows to choose from. And now you really can

1107
00:54:38.440 --> 00:54:40.800
just go to a couple of stores, and you know,

1108
00:54:40.840 --> 00:54:43.280
it's expensive to have things shipped to your house and

1109
00:54:43.320 --> 00:54:46.840
then if you have to exactly, so, I don't know,

1110
00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:48.400
I just kind of miss that. It is.

1111
00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:51.079
Really it's weird out there now, Like are the mall

1112
00:54:51.199 --> 00:54:54.159
that is near us is like kind of a ghost town.

1113
00:54:54.280 --> 00:54:55.599
It's just it's sort of sad.

1114
00:54:55.840 --> 00:54:59.159
It's really sad. I had such fond memories of going

1115
00:54:59.159 --> 00:55:00.880
to the mall as a ca and you would always

1116
00:55:00.960 --> 00:55:02.840
need to walk into the mall and you would instantly

1117
00:55:02.880 --> 00:55:06.079
smell the burnt caramel corn from the caramel corn store.

1118
00:55:06.119 --> 00:55:06.960
And yeah, you.

1119
00:55:06.920 --> 00:55:09.480
Know, there was like a steakhouse and the mall and

1120
00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:11.480
there was just like just a lot more to do.

1121
00:55:11.639 --> 00:55:13.719
You know, there's the bookstore and a toy store, and

1122
00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:17.000
now it's just a couple of dilapidated stores. Arm mall

1123
00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:19.719
is getting some sort of major upgrade though. There's maybe

1124
00:55:20.079 --> 00:55:22.400
apartments and I think more food.

1125
00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:24.119
Options, yeah, which will be interesting to see.

1126
00:55:24.239 --> 00:55:24.679
Interesting.

1127
00:55:24.719 --> 00:55:26.320
I think I just read a couple of weeks ago

1128
00:55:26.440 --> 00:55:28.599
the mall near where I grew up that I went

1129
00:55:28.639 --> 00:55:31.400
to in high school, Like all the time, I think

1130
00:55:31.400 --> 00:55:32.920
it's gone. I think they tore it down.

1131
00:55:33.119 --> 00:55:36.239
So yeah, wow, Well I feel bad for teenagers today,

1132
00:55:36.320 --> 00:55:38.559
or not just teenagers, but younger people do. It's like,

1133
00:55:38.719 --> 00:55:41.039
where do you go? Like my friends and I would

1134
00:55:41.079 --> 00:55:42.760
just go to like Toys r us and walk around

1135
00:55:42.800 --> 00:55:46.079
and be dumb, or you could are the record store

1136
00:55:46.199 --> 00:55:46.760
any of the other.

1137
00:55:46.960 --> 00:55:48.239
We sound like the roller rink.

1138
00:55:49.000 --> 00:55:52.079
Well I think there's still roller rings, but there's not many.

1139
00:55:52.360 --> 00:55:54.159
The drive in theater. Now we sound like we're two

1140
00:55:54.239 --> 00:55:56.679
hundred years old, and we're really only like one hundred

1141
00:55:56.679 --> 00:55:57.800
and forty years old.

1142
00:55:57.880 --> 00:55:58.800
Once exactly.

1143
00:55:58.920 --> 00:56:02.119
But before we go, I wanted to give a huge

1144
00:56:02.119 --> 00:56:04.159
shout out and thank you to our friend Allison, who

1145
00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:07.079
has been a very kind and loyal listener. She sent

1146
00:56:07.280 --> 00:56:09.199
I was talking about her. I think I was talking

1147
00:56:09.239 --> 00:56:11.360
about Clover and how she kept waking me up, and

1148
00:56:11.519 --> 00:56:15.800
Alison sent us this really nice, heated kind of pad

1149
00:56:16.760 --> 00:56:19.960
and our cats are fighting over it. They really love it,

1150
00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:22.039
and that was so sweet. So thank you, Allison, You're

1151
00:56:22.119 --> 00:56:22.639
just the best.

1152
00:56:22.719 --> 00:56:23.880
Yeah, thank you so much.

1153
00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:26.519
And a little update. I'm not sure what happened, but

1154
00:56:26.559 --> 00:56:29.760
Clover is no longer interested in hanging out with us

1155
00:56:29.760 --> 00:56:32.320
at night. Lately, she's been I don't know where she's sleeping.

1156
00:56:32.440 --> 00:56:33.440
You think it's the heating pad.

1157
00:56:33.480 --> 00:56:36.159
Does she like well, even before the heating pad, I

1158
00:56:36.159 --> 00:56:39.280
mean she I did put the heating pad in the hallway. Yeah,

1159
00:56:39.320 --> 00:56:41.159
and yeah, they kind of like it over there. But

1160
00:56:41.199 --> 00:56:43.440
even before that came, she'd kind of been.

1161
00:56:43.599 --> 00:56:45.840
She is very fickle. You just never know. She can

1162
00:56:45.920 --> 00:56:47.880
be hot and cold. One day she loves you, the

1163
00:56:47.880 --> 00:56:49.719
next day she wants nothing to do with you.

1164
00:56:49.800 --> 00:56:52.199
Well, thank you to all the listeners that gave us

1165
00:56:52.440 --> 00:56:54.400
recommendations of what to do with the cats at night.

1166
00:56:54.440 --> 00:56:55.760
A lot of people said, we'll just put them in

1167
00:56:55.760 --> 00:56:57.280
the basement, and that's just.

1168
00:56:57.559 --> 00:56:59.880
That's just an invitation for the cats to destroy them.

1169
00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:00.840
Yeah.

1170
00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:02.679
I think our cats are just a little more feral

1171
00:57:02.840 --> 00:57:05.880
and they have their claws, so, I mean, Cosmo has

1172
00:57:05.960 --> 00:57:08.199
has destroyed a fair bit of carpeting in our eyes.

1173
00:57:08.239 --> 00:57:10.199
They don't like to be locked out of a room.

1174
00:57:10.360 --> 00:57:12.679
If they are, they will destroy the carpeting under the

1175
00:57:12.719 --> 00:57:15.840
door trying to get through it. And thank you also

1176
00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:19.159
to everyone who is leaving comments on Spotify especially, we

1177
00:57:19.239 --> 00:57:22.639
love reading the comments and reading your feedback about cases.

1178
00:57:22.239 --> 00:57:25.000
And unfortunately you can't do that on Apple. You have

1179
00:57:25.039 --> 00:57:27.320
to leave a whole review and I mean those.

1180
00:57:27.280 --> 00:57:29.360
Those are great too, but we can't respond.

1181
00:57:28.960 --> 00:57:31.639
To them, right and you can. You are in charge

1182
00:57:31.639 --> 00:57:33.320
of the Spotify. I would I do a lot of

1183
00:57:33.360 --> 00:57:35.880
the social media, but you are in charge of the Spotify,

1184
00:57:35.960 --> 00:57:38.599
so if but I usually kind of like or laugh

1185
00:57:38.719 --> 00:57:40.599
or love or with the comments.

1186
00:57:40.199 --> 00:57:42.159
And I try to respond, but sometimes I get really

1187
00:57:42.199 --> 00:57:45.199
busy and I don't respond. So I apologize for that.

1188
00:57:45.280 --> 00:57:48.280
But we do read every comment and we really appreciate it.

1189
00:57:48.400 --> 00:57:51.039
Thank you again to Julia and Sam for our Bucky snacks.

1190
00:57:51.039 --> 00:57:53.599
That was really fun. Yeah, that was Someday we will

1191
00:57:53.599 --> 00:57:54.000
get there.

1192
00:57:54.079 --> 00:57:55.159
We will do.

1193
00:57:55.199 --> 00:57:56.440
You know what I'm gonna do right now?

1194
00:57:56.519 --> 00:57:57.239
What are you going to do?

1195
00:57:57.280 --> 00:57:59.960
I'm going to go to patreon dot com slash love

1196
00:58:00.159 --> 00:58:02.719
Mary Kill or I'm already a subscriber so I can

1197
00:58:02.800 --> 00:58:05.320
listen to part two of this episode, so I can't

1198
00:58:05.360 --> 00:58:07.960
wait to see how it ends. Good thinking, And if

1199
00:58:07.960 --> 00:58:10.519
you want to support the podcast, please go to patreon

1200
00:58:10.559 --> 00:58:13.800
dot com slash Lovemrykill. For five dollars a month, you

1201
00:58:13.840 --> 00:58:18.599
get early add free access, and a monthly bonus episode

1202
00:58:18.800 --> 00:58:21.760
that is exclusive to Patreon. I don't want to brag,

1203
00:58:21.800 --> 00:58:24.079
but our Patreon is actually a really good deal. A

1204
00:58:24.119 --> 00:58:26.960
lot of other podcasts will charge you, you know, for

1205
00:58:27.079 --> 00:58:29.639
each extra thing you get, you have to pay extra.

1206
00:58:29.920 --> 00:58:31.920
We only have one here that's five dollars a month,

1207
00:58:31.960 --> 00:58:34.280
So please consider supporting us on Patreon.

1208
00:58:34.679 --> 00:58:38.000
Please rate, review, follow and subscribe. Find us on social

1209
00:58:38.079 --> 00:58:40.760
media and now YouTube, or send us an email at

1210
00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:43.000
Lovemarykill at gmail dot com.

1211
00:58:43.079 --> 00:58:44.920
And if you want to send us a snack, send

1212
00:58:44.960 --> 00:58:49.199
it to lmkpod p O box one one one Dexter,

1213
00:58:49.440 --> 00:58:53.280
Michigan four eight one three zero. Until next time.

1214
00:58:53.199 --> 00:59:16.599
Don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband.

1215
00:59:16.360 --> 00:59:19.079
The Fat

1216
00:59:28.639 --> 00:59:31.639
Compact