June 29, 2026

Hannah Clarke and Rowan Baxter

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In February 2020, 31-year-old Hannah Clarke was driving her three young children to school in Brisbane, Australia, when her estranged husband, Rowan Baxter jumped into the car and doused them with petrol. Behind closed doors, Hannah had endured years of coercive control, intimidation, isolation, and abuse. She had done what so many victims are told to do: she left, sought help from police, obtained a protection order, and documented her fears. It wasn't enough. In this episode, we examine the warning signs leading up to the murders, the systemic failures that left Hannah and her children unprotected, and the reforms that followed. It's a heartbreaking case that forever changed the conversation about domestic violence in Australia.

Today's snack: Lamingtons

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WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Tina, and I'm rich If there's one thing

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we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's.

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That some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hello Richard, Hello Tina. How

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are you good? How are you?

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I'm good, although one day I was not so good.

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Do you want to tell everyone?

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Why? No?

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No, you were in trouble. You don't get in trouble

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very often, almost never.

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I was in big trouble.

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Oh. I mean I was a little mad at You

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do want to talk about it?

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Well, apparently you do, so we can. We can talk

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about it.

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I just want a public apology, that's all.

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Well. I put Sometimes I put bloopers at the very

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end of our episode, after our our closing music comes on.

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And I and how often what percentage of the time

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are they of you?

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Not that often? No, because I'm not very funny. When

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I do a blooper, I'm just I make a mistake.

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Like it's that you like to humiliate your.

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Yeah, that's not it. I just like to have some

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fun and find something funny, like a little easter egg

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that people might find at the end, but I did

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not inform you that I was putting a blooper of

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you at the end of the episode, and.

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A couple of listeners were like that was funny or

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oh boy, I felt your pain and I was like,

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what are you talking about? And then I realized that

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I had been deceived by my beloved.

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Yes, so I apologize for putting a blooper in of

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you without your permission. It will never happen again.

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I appreciate it much. I don't want to beat a

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dead horse.

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Well, it is the fact that you're bringing this up.

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I bet, I bet a lot of our listeners don't

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even know that there are occasional bloopers as because it's

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way at the end.

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I just felt like it was the joke was on

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me because I didn't know you were doing that. And

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sometimes when I make bloopers, which happens a lot, because

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it is hard to talk and do the podcast and

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I struggle sometimes, but I feel like in that situation,

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I might have been being extra silly just to make

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you laugh and not everyone else. And I can say

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Hioyd both, I can say hyoid bone, but sometimes I

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was struggling with the pronunciation of hyoid that was the situation. Anyway,

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let's move on. Okay, do you have anything that you

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want to air out publicly? Any grievances with me?

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I currently have no grievances with you. I have grievances

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maybe with other people, but not you. You're good for now.

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Well, speaking of grievances, I saw on Instagram earlier today

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that you can now send read flags to people in

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the mail. I think it's anonymous, like if you're having

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a problem with someone, or you're dating someone, you can

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send them a bread flag.

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That's a really good idea.

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Yeah, do you have anyone you would had a red

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flag to?

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No, As I.

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Said, I really have no grievances with very easy going

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How about the Tigers? Would you send one to? Like

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the Tigers?

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Well, I'm a little angry at the Tigers at times,

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but it's not like a red flag, like a warning side.

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I think it sounds like this is more for.

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I have a long list, a long list of people

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that I would send them to, but knowing that I

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want to shame publicly right.

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Now, not right now, maybe later though probably not.

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But I think you know who is on the list.

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So I realized I know the first day of summer

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was just like three days ago. But I'm already fantasizing

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about the fall. Are you fall weather and football season? Yeah?

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Well, it's been a very cool summer so far, though

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it feels a little like fall to me.

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It's been amazing here in Michigan. But I'm still just

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a lot of us really just love fall.

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You love football so much, you really want I.

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Love football season. I like, you know, the excitement around

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game day. I like the snacks and you know, yeah, yeah.

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So do you think the Lions are going to have

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a good year this year?

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Of course, I don't even know why you would question

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whether they're going to have a good year. They are

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going to win the Super Bowl.

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Oh okay, did you put a bet on them then

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you last year?

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No? I have in the past, but I don't think

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I did last year.

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I just realized that I totally screwed up, and I

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meant to start the episode by saying, how you go

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in mate?

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Oh?

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Weird? Are going to Australia today. It's been a while.

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It has been a while.

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Australian listeners are amazing. I looked the other day. We

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have listeners all around the world which still shocks me.

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But Australia makes up like eighteen percent of our audience.

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That's huge, it really is. It's awesome.

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This case is one that people have been asking for

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for a very long time. But it did make you

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an Aussie snack.

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Oh excellent.

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I made you Lamington's. I think that's how you say it.

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It's a little bit of cake and then you put

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it in chocolate icing, and then you cover it with coconut.

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That looked like coconut, which makes me a little ware,

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but I am certainly going to give it a try.

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Okay, what did you think?

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I thought they were really good. I definitely you were

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kind enough to make one without coconut. I did try

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one with coconut and then one without. Definitely prefer it

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without the coconut. That's just me, But I yeah, they're

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really good, really yummy.

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I liked them, but I didn't love them. But I

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think it's on me because I overcooked the cake a

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little bit. Oh okay, did you think the cake was

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a little dry?

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Uh? Not, especially because I had a bite with quite

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a bit of chocolate on it, so that probably made

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up for the dryness of the cake. But no, I

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thought they were really good.

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Well, I'm so glad that you liked them. The recipe

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will be in show notes if anyone wants to give

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them a try at home, and if you're from Australia,

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I would be curious to hear variations on the Lamington.

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The recipe that I got said that you could cut

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them in half and put jam in the middle with

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a little bit of whipped cream, which I was going

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to do that, but then I decided to take a

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nap and stuff.

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You have your priorities.

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The story of Hannah Clark broke Australia's heart. I know

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this is true because no story has been requested more

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and after researching this case, I know why. Hannah and

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her children were beautiful and made the world a better place.

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They're sorely missed by those who knew them and even

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those who didn't. This is a tragic, heartbreaking story that

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does involve the death of children, domestic abuse and suicide,

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so please listen with care. So often when we think

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of domestic abuse, we picture the breakdown of our relationship

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and the steady escalation of physical violence. It begins with

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a shove, a slap, or a punch, followed by an

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emphatic apology that it will never happen again. Then later

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come bruises, black eyes, broken bones, a pattern that becomes

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increasingly violent over time, until it sometimes turns deadly. For years,

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Hannah Clark lived under a system of control carefully constructed

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by her husband, Rowan Baxter. He dictated what she wore,

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who she spent time with, how she communicated with friends

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and family, and even how she spent holidays or birthdays.

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To outsiders, Rowan appeared to be a devoted father and

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loving husband, but behind closed doors, Hannah slowly lost her agency,

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her confidence, and her freedom. Hannah's life was dictated by

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Rowan's moods, demands, and unrealistic expectations. Hannah's closest friends and

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family noticed the changes in her. Police recalled, but Rowan's

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behavior wasn't viewed as dangerous and often dismissed as the

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troubles of a struggling marriage. Because there were no bruises

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or other obvious signs of physical violence, the danger he

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posed seemed minimal, and when law enforcement eventually was called,

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officers appeared to side with Rowan when he portrayed Hannah

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as controlling a rational or overly emotional Rowan Baxter was

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a master of manipulation and coercive control. No one thought

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he was capable of the unspeakable violence that he would

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unleash on his family. On February nineteenth, twenty twenty, after

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Hannah finally found this strength to leave the marriage, she

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and her children had eleven weeks of calm, allowing her

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nervous system to reset. She thought she'd done the right

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thing by leaving. She finally felt safe and secure living

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with her loving parents, But Rowan could not leave her

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to live in peace. When Hannah broke free from his

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control with the resolve to start anew it gnawed at him.

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This is a story about coerceive control, a form of

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abuse that isn't physical, what can be just as damaging

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and in some cases, just as deadly. Throughout this episode,

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we'll talk about what coerceive control is, how it works,

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and why so many people struggle to recognize it. Most

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of all, this is a story about the warning signs

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that were missed, the systems that failed to understand the danger,

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and the devastating consequences that followed. This is the story

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of Hannah Clark and her three children, Aliyah, Leanna, and

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Trey and one of the most devastating acts of domestic

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violence in Australian history. Hannah Ashley Clark was born to

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Susannah and Lloyd on September eighth, nineteen eighty eight, in Brisbane.

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Brisbane is located on the east coast of Australia, serving

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as the capital and largest city of the state of Queensland.

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The population is about three million. It is known for

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its warm, sunny climate and laid back lifestyle. Brisbane will

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host the twenty thirty two Summer Olympics. Should we Go,

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we Should Hannah's brother and best friend, Nathaniel or Nat,

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was born two years later. From an early age, Hannah

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was bright and funny. She had a bubbly personality with

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an abundance of energy and a love of performance in

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competition that led her parents to steer her towards sports,

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particularly trampoline gymnastics. Hannah was confident and very talented in

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the sport, representing Queensland and trampoline when she was sixteen

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years old, meddling in international competitions. In addition to excelling

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in sports, Hannah was chosen as her school's captain, a

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leadership role similar to student body president in the US

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and typically reserved for students held in high regard by

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both peers and teachers. After graduation, Hannah became a coach

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and gymnastics teacher. CrossFit became her sport in two thousand

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and eight. She didn't just participate in the sport for fitness,

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she also competed in competitions where she excelled. Her happy

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place was the jim and that's how she met her husband, Rowan,

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a former professional rugby player. Hannah's best friend, Nikki, told

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Melissa Downs of The Hannah Story podcast that she was

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relentlessly positive and saw the best in everyone. While that

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is a wonderful personality trait, sometimes this was to Hannah's detriment.

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Rowan Baxter was born on May ninth, nineteen seventy seven

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in Torounga, a coastal city on New Zealand's North Island.

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He had an unusually traumatic childhood due to his father

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being sent to prison after sexually abusing his sisters. His

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cousin told The New Zealand Herald that he was a cruel,

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angry child, but Rowan, too was a gifted actor athlete.

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Sports were his escape from his home life. He played

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rugby with the New Zealand Warriors. Professionally, he was known

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to get into violent brawls on the field and later

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quit after he wasn't getting enough playing time. He later

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acknowledged the criticism in a newspaper interview and defended his

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involvement in several on field brawls, saying quote, that's the

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way I play. I don't regret it. That's who I am.

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With his rugby days behind him, Rowan worked as a trainer.

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He met his first wife, who we're calling Penny. She

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has chosen not to have, not to be involved in

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any of this. Some one just made up a name

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for her and for calling her Penny. He met Penny

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when he was eighteen and she was sixteen. After they

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were married, they welcomed a son, Isaiah. He was an

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abusive and controlling husband. When Penny decided to leave when

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their son was two, Rowan stalked her and left notes

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on her car begging her to come back. He threatened

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her by telling her that he had a hose pipe

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in the boot of his car and had planned how

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to end it for all three of them. The threat

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was enough to make her go back to him. Later

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Hannah confided in a friend that Rowan had told her

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that he had once plotted the deaths of his first

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wife and son before he even met her. His marriage,

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along with his aggressive rugby days and a road rage

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incident in which he almost beat a man to death,

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paint Rowan in a disturbing light as a man with

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a hair trigger and a long history of violent thoughts

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and abusive behavior.

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In two thousand and seven, Rowan, his wife, and young

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son relocated to Queensland soon after he met Hannah Clark

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at the gym where his son was enrolled in a

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gymnastics class that Hannah taught at the PCYC. She was

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just twenty years old and still lived at home with

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her parents. Rowan was thirty one. The PCYC, or Police

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Citizens Youth Club, is a nonprofit organization that partners with

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police and local communities to provide sports, recreation, leadership programs,

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and youth development activities. The CYC clubs were originally created

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to build positive relationships between young people and police officers,

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particularly to help steer at risk youth away from crime

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and provide constructive activities similar to the YMCA in the US.

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Hannah's mother Sue told Melissa Downs of the Hannah's Story

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podcast that she often talked about the hot dad from

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the gym. When Rowan got a job working at the

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same PCEYC as a boxing instructor, the two became closer

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when Hannah took his class. Eventually, they started an affair.

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Despite Rowan being married with a young son, he lied

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to Hannah and told her that the marriage was over.

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He only continued to live with his wife so he

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could see his son daily. When Penny found out about

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the affair, she wasn't happy and told Rowan he needed

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to move out of their home, but he wasn't able

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to afford a place of his own, so he remained

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living with Penny and their son, But after about four

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months of dating Hannah, he moved in with a friend.

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Hannah had been planning to go on a cruise with

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a girlfriend before she started dating Rowan. During the trip,

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he called her often and demanded to know what she

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was doing at all times. When Penny and Rowan officially separated,

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she was happy to be rid of him, although custody

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of their son was contentious and led to fights over visitation.

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On one occasion, he kicked at the front door until

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she let him in and handed over their son. Hannah's

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parents initially weren't happy about her and Rowan's relationship, but

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over time he won them over. Hannah's brother, Nat, however,

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was another story. He dug his heels in. He didn't

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like Rowan, considered him too old for his sister, and

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thought he was a con man. His hesitancy to accept

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the relationship caused him and Hannah to become estranged for

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a couple of years after an incident with NAT's car.

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He traveled for work and frequently allowed Rowan to use

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his car when he was out of town. It was

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a new vehicle, and Rowan quickly put thirty thousand kilometers

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on it, often returning it empty. When Nat told Rowan

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he could no longer use the car, Rowan was furious

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and took his anger out on Hannah, which happened often.

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Rowan reserved his vitriol and anger for Hannah, never wanting

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to appear unpleasant to her friends or family. Six months

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into the relationship, Hannah discovered that she was pregnant. She

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wanted to follow through with the pregnancy, but Rowan did

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not think she was old enough to become a mother

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and convinced her to have an abortion. Soon after, Hannah

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and Rowan moved in together. While she worked at an

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athletic shoe store, he worked in pharmaceutical sales.

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Are you seeing some red flags in this relationship?

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So many red flags and so many familiar red flags

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from other cases we've covered.

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It's easy for us because we do this every week

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where you break down people's marriages. But you know, I

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think early on they did have happy times and he

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wasn't always controlling, but there were, you know, definitely some signs.

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Well, calling her when she's on a cruise, like wanting

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to know where she is all the time, that's definitely

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a warning sign. Hannah was fourteen weeks pregnant on her

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wedding day in October twenty twelve. She said she felt

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like a princess and called it the happiest day of

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her life. Sue and Lloyd paid for the wedding. Looking back,

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the Clarks remembered an incident that gave them pause. Rowan

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was upset that guests had not been more generous with

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their cash gifts because he wanted to use the money

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to fund a honeymoon to the United States.

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So this is about four years into their relationship, okay.

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After the wedding, friends and family saw Hannah's sunny disposition darken.

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She had always been exceptionally close to her family, but

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her bright, easygoing personality faded. Sue said that Rowan's attitude

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changed almost immediately after the marriage. It was like flicking

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a switch, she recalled. The couple's first daughter, Aliyah, was

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born on April tenth, twenty thirteen. Leanna, their second daughter,

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was born on March nineteenth, twenty fifteen, and Trey, their son,

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was born on December fourth, twenty sixteen. Hannah's children meant

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everything to her. They gave her so much joy and fulfillment.

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Hannah passed her love of movement on to her children.

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Their happy place was the beach. The children were all healthy, vibrant,

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and thriving. After he and Hannah started their family, Rowan

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refused to pay child support to Penny for their son.

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I'm not sure how involved Rowan was in Isaiah's life,

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his first son, but he still saw him from time

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to time. But for some reason, he just didn't think

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he had to pay child support anymore. But his work

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was never consistent and he always had a hard time

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making ends meet.

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In twenty fifteen, Hannah and Rowan opened a gym called

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Integrate with roughly sixty thousand dollars in startup funding from

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friends and Hannah's parents. On paper, it seemed like a

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natural fit. The couple had met at the gym, and

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fitness was a huge part of both of their lives,

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But it takes more than being a fitness fanatic to

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operate a profitable jim. The stress of owning and operating

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a new business with the demands of a young family

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proved to be too much for them. Integrate struggled from

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the beginning, relocating twice as it fought to stay afloat.

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Rowan was not a strong businessman, and some members found

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him aggressive and off putting. He also struggled to manage

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both the gym's finances and the family's finances. As the

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debts mounted, Rowan and Hannah leaned heavily on Sue and

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Lloyd for help. The clerks regularly stepped in to cover

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mortgage payments, jim rent, and other expenses. The financial support

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became so extensive that Sue and Lloyd eventually re mortgaged

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their own home to keep the family afloat. By the

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end of twenty nineteen, Integrate had closed its doors, leaving

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debts of approximately seventy five thousand dollars behind.

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I have seen a lot of interviews with Sue and Lloyd,

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Hannah's parents, and they are just amazing, beautiful, kind people,

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and they would have done anything for Hannah and even

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Rowan to help them, and they certainly did financially.

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Yeah, they do sound like great parents. We'll be back

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after a break.

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Before we go any further, it's important to understand a

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term that comes up repeatedly, in this case, coercive control.

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Do you are you familiar with that term?

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I have heard it, but I honestly don't really know

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what it means.

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Coercive control is a pattern of abusive behavior designed to

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dominate another person and strip away their independence and sense

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of self. Unlike physical abuse, it doesn't leave visible injuries. Instead,

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the perpetrator operates through intimidation, manipulation, isolation, surveillance, humiliation, and

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the constant erosion of a person's autonomy. An abusive partner

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may dictate with someone wares who they spend time with,

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how they spend money, where they go, or who they

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can speak to They may monitor phone calls and social

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media accounts, demand constant updates about their whereabouts, or use threats, gilt,

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and emotional views to maintain control. Each individual act may

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seem insignificant on its own, but taken together, they create

382
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an environment in which the victim feels trapped. One of

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the reasons coercive control can be so difficult to recognize

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is that it usually develops gradually. The restrictions are introduced

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one at a time and often framed as acts of love, concern,

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or protection. Over time, the victim may begin to question

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their own judgment and accept behavior they once would have

388
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found unacceptable. Experts often describe coercive control as a hostage

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taking situation without physical chains. The goal is not necessarily

390
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.799
to cause physical harm. The goal is power and control.

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While course of control does not always involve physical violence,

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research has shown that it is one of the strongest

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00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:05.319
predictors of serious domestic violence and domestic commicide. In many cases,

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the abuse becomes most dangerous when the victim attempts to

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leave and the abuser realizes that they are losing control.

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As we tell Hannah's story, many of Rowan's actions may

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not initially sound criminal, or even unusual, but when viewed together,

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they reveal a pattern of coercive control that would ultimately

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have devastating consequences. Rowan was a skilled manipulator who carefully

400
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:31.400
cultivated the image of a devoted husband and father, making

401
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:34.160
it difficult for outsiders to see what was happening behind

402
00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:38.319
closed doors. Friends and strangers often saw an attentive, hands

403
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:41.640
on dad, and public Rowan would change diapers and dote

404
00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:44.920
on the children, reinforcing the impression that he was deeply

405
00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:48.559
involved in family life behind closed doors. However, Hannah said

406
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he rarely helped with such tasks and left the day

407
00:21:51.160 --> 00:21:53.680
to day burden of caring for the children to her.

408
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Over time, Rowan imposed increasingly strict rules on Hannah's appearance.

409
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He forbade her from war wearing shorts, miniskirts, dresses, bikinis,

410
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and even the color pink, though he occasionally made exceptions

411
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when it suited him. He also forbade her from having

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her own social media accounts, insisting they share a single

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social media profile. He criticized everything about his wife, her appearance,

414
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the way she parented, the cleanliness of their house, not

415
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caring that she had three young children to take care

416
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:25.799
of He called her fat and lazy, and he also

417
00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:28.599
referred to other female gym members as pigs.

418
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I'm thinking back to another case we did recently, and

419
00:22:31.480 --> 00:22:34.240
it seems like men like this, they seem to have

420
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a problem with all women. Is that true? Do you think?

421
00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:38.960
Oh? Absolutely yeah?

422
00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:41.559
And I don't really under like this whole I'm trying

423
00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:45.720
to understand this concept of coercive control and trying to

424
00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:49.720
understand what motivates a person, and I really have a

425
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:52.279
hard time understanding it, Like what's your goal? Like it's

426
00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:56.359
just about control? But to what end? I just don't

427
00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:56.680
get it.

428
00:22:57.079 --> 00:22:59.079
Well, I'm glad that you don't get it, because you're

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not a narcissist. And people like Rowan only care about

430
00:23:02.200 --> 00:23:05.920
their own needs, right and controlling others to suit their needs.

431
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They can't see anyone else's wants and needs and desires.

432
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:10.759
It's all about them.

433
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Huddles my mind because it's just not a path to happiness,

434
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:15.799
you know, it's a path to well.

435
00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:18.359
People like that are never going to be happy. And

436
00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:21.200
the fact that he degraded his wife when she not

437
00:23:21.319 --> 00:23:25.680
that her appearance should matter but beautiful, young fit lovely

438
00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:29.599
in every way, and he just couldn't see her for

439
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:33.400
who she was. After Hannah would finish what she believed

440
00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:37.119
or private phone conversations, Rowan would confront her about details

441
00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:40.440
that he should not have known. It became increasingly clear

442
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:43.559
that he was somehow listening in. When questioned how he

443
00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:46.240
knew so much, Rowan claimed that six year old Aliah

444
00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:49.759
had secretly recorded Hannah's conversations on her phone and sent

445
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them to him. No one found that explanation believable. Although Aliyah,

446
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I mean, her grandparents told a lot of stories. She

447
00:23:57.880 --> 00:24:01.720
was just so smart and sassy, and she was just

448
00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:03.839
a really cool, spirited child.

449
00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:05.720
Yeah, that's six years old. You're not going to You're

450
00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:08.039
not recording phone conversations at that age.

451
00:24:08.319 --> 00:24:10.640
So why didn't Hannah leave sooner? It's a question that

452
00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:13.640
often follows cases like this one, but cores of control

453
00:24:13.799 --> 00:24:17.200
is rarely obvious even to the person experiencing it. It

454
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:21.319
works gradually eroding confidence, independence in a person's sense of reality.

455
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Over time, the target may begin to question their own judgment,

456
00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:29.400
wonder if they're overreacting, or feel as if they're going crazy.

457
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And when victims do leave, the danger doesn't end. In

458
00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:34.240
many cases, it escalates.

459
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:37.720
Yeah, I think it's that gradual ramping up that just

460
00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:40.400
you know, leaves you like when something like that happens

461
00:24:40.759 --> 00:24:43.480
so slowly over time, you just don't know it when

462
00:24:43.480 --> 00:24:44.519
you're in it. Right.

463
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:48.000
I was at a relationship before you, and I realized

464
00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:50.920
that he did some of these tactics to me, and

465
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:53.000
it did make me feel like I was crazy or

466
00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:56.640
overreacting all the time. Yeah, he was like, well, everything's okay,

467
00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:59.400
you know, if I questioned anything, it Yeah.

468
00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:01.920
And did it like get gradually ramped up through the

469
00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:04.680
course of the relationship or was it just sort of

470
00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:06.000
a few red flags there?

471
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:07.640
Probably? I mean it was so long ago, I don't

472
00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:11.319
really remember, but I did identify to some of these tactics.

473
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:15.200
After Trey was born, Rowan began forcing Hannah to have

474
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sex every night. She was physically exhausted from caring for

475
00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:22.039
three young children and emotionally drained by the constant tension

476
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:25.160
in her marriage, but Rowan was indifferent to her needs.

477
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If Hannah resisted or failed to show what Rowan deemed

478
00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:32.079
the appropriate level of enthusiasm, he would become angry and

479
00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:35.759
punish her with days of silence. Over time, sex became

480
00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:39.640
another tool of control Hannah later disclosed to a police

481
00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:42.920
officer that Rowan would force himself on her, leaving her

482
00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:45.759
feeling powerless in her own home and fearful of the

483
00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:51.079
consequences if she refused. Is Hannah's thirtieth birthday approached, Rowan

484
00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:54.680
began organizing a surprise celebration for her at the gym,

485
00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:57.400
but after learning that Hannah would have preferred a quiet

486
00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:00.960
dinner with family and close friends, he became angry and

487
00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:04.799
scrapped the plans altogether. He had collected money from gym

488
00:26:04.839 --> 00:26:07.680
members and Hannah's parents to purchase a necklace engrave with

489
00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:10.960
the children's names, but the birthday itself ended up being

490
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:14.720
organized by Sue and Lloyd. Friends invited Hannah out to

491
00:26:14.759 --> 00:26:17.880
bars to continue the celebration, but Rowan made it clear

492
00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:22.039
that he wanted to go home rather than argue. Hannah agreed.

493
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:25.519
By then, those close sester had noticed a pattern and

494
00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:28.279
was often easier to give Rowan what he wanted than

495
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:31.839
deal with a fallout when she didn't. Much like she

496
00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:34.599
had when she was a child and teenager, Hannah still

497
00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:38.480
loved to compete, perform, and exercise. When she discovered CrossFit,

498
00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:40.640
it was the perfect outlet for her to maintain her

499
00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:44.480
fitness goals and meet new friends. In November twenty eighteen,

500
00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:46.839
Hannah was preparing to compete as part of a team

501
00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:50.599
in a CrossFit competition. Rowan had failed to qualify for

502
00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:53.559
the individual event and was angry that Hannah would be

503
00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:57.200
competing without him. When she returned from an early training

504
00:26:57.240 --> 00:26:59.759
session on the day of the competition, Rowan and the

505
00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:02.960
chillildren were gone. He hadn't told her where they were going,

506
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:06.680
and his phone was switched off. Hannah became frantic. She

507
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:11.519
called and texted repeatedly with no response. Fearing something had happened,

508
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:14.839
she asked her brother Nat to search local beaches and parks,

509
00:27:15.079 --> 00:27:17.200
but there was no sign of Rowan and the children.

510
00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:21.160
Hannah considered skipping the competition, but her parents encouraged her

511
00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:24.559
to attend rather than give Rowan what he wanted. What

512
00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:27.599
Hannah didn't know was that Rowan had deliberately left a

513
00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:32.000
phone behind to secretly record her conversations while he was gone. Later,

514
00:27:32.440 --> 00:27:36.480
when he finally contacted her, he wasn't apologetic. Instead, he

515
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:40.279
was furious. He berated Hannah for competing without him and

516
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:42.920
for involving her family and the search for him and

517
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:47.119
the children. The confrontation continued when Hannah returned home to

518
00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:49.799
pick up six year old Aliah, whom she had promised

519
00:27:49.799 --> 00:27:53.880
could watch the CrossFit finals. Rowan was still seething. He

520
00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:57.440
told Hannah that Aliah wasn't going anywhere, But this time

521
00:27:57.559 --> 00:28:00.359
Hannah refused to back down, As she had for the

522
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:03.359
door with her daughter, Rowan grabbed her arm and held on,

523
00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:06.119
leaving a bruise. It was one of the few times

524
00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:09.160
his abuse left a visible mark for Hannah. It was

525
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:11.799
a turning point. She asked her mother if she and

526
00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:14.279
the children could live with them while she sorted out

527
00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:17.680
her personal finances. Sue and Lloyd were thrilled at the

528
00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:20.720
prospect and asked Hannah to hold on a little longer

529
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:22.240
while they prepared their home.

530
00:28:22.839 --> 00:28:26.400
So infuriating that he is upset about her having some

531
00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:29.440
accomplishment without them, it's just so it just goes to

532
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:32.400
the core of like what a narcissist like. You can't

533
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:37.599
just appreciate someone else, you know, doing something, accomplishing something. Yeah,

534
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:38.759
it has to be all about you.

535
00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:41.200
It's a very good observation. And if you just take

536
00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:43.599
one of these incidents, it's like, oh, that's not you

537
00:28:43.640 --> 00:28:45.480
know that big of a deal, but when you know,

538
00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:47.880
pile them all on top of each other, you can

539
00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:51.680
tell like she's becoming a shadow of her former self.

540
00:28:51.799 --> 00:28:55.119
And it's just a really, really hard to persevere in

541
00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:57.799
all these situations and retain your sense of self.

542
00:28:58.440 --> 00:29:01.640
One night, soon after Hannah awoke to Rowan with her

543
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:05.079
phone in his hand, scrolling through her call log and messages.

544
00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:07.720
She had suspected that he had been doing this for

545
00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:10.400
months because he always seemed to know more about her

546
00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:14.440
private conversations than he was privy to. When she confronted him,

547
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:17.400
he angrily threw the phone at the wall, cracking the screen.

548
00:29:18.039 --> 00:29:21.119
Hannah had been plotting her separation from Rowan for months.

549
00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:24.920
On December fifth, Hannah's friend Niki encouraged her to move

550
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:27.440
out of her house that day, while Rowan was away.

551
00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:30.920
Hannah agreed. She got a new phone with a new

552
00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:34.440
phone number, but kept the old phone number to communicate.

553
00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:36.839
With Rowan, so Rowan did not know about this new

554
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:41.559
phone number. Smart Since before the birth of Trey, Hannah

555
00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:44.119
had been wanting to leave Rowan, even before she was

556
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:47.920
pregnant with him. She considered leaving, and her friends and

557
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:50.920
her family knew that she had been wanting to do this,

558
00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:53.799
and they kept encouraging her, like her parents were like,

559
00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:55.400
you know, we're going to get bunk beds for you,

560
00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:56.720
and we're going to do all this stuff. You know,

561
00:29:56.759 --> 00:29:59.000
you go ahead and leave. Yeah, And she just couldn't

562
00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:01.759
do it until final this day in December. Her friend

563
00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:04.440
was like, today's the day, and Hannah said, yes, today

564
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:06.440
is the day. So it was really exciting for her

565
00:30:06.519 --> 00:30:07.519
to find make this.

566
00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:10.640
Leap, I'm sure. The next day, Hannah went to the

567
00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:14.640
police station and met with Senior Constable Kristin Kent. She

568
00:30:14.839 --> 00:30:18.359
encouraged Hannah to file a domestic violence protection order or

569
00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:22.400
DVO against Rowan, but Hannah was worried that that would

570
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:25.920
set him over the edge. Later that day, Rowan insisted

571
00:30:25.960 --> 00:30:28.559
on seeing Hannah and convinced her and the children to

572
00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:31.599
return home for the night, which she did, but then

573
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:34.039
left town for a few days to stay with her brother,

574
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:37.920
then returned to her parents' house. The following few days

575
00:30:37.960 --> 00:30:41.519
were a confusing time for everyone involved, with Rowan begging

576
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:44.359
Hannah to return to their home. She and the children

577
00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:47.000
spent time with him, but she would then return to

578
00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:50.160
her parents' house. Rowan had a few sessions with a

579
00:30:50.200 --> 00:30:53.279
therapist and claimed to Hannah and friends that he was

580
00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:57.079
working on himself. Hannah confided to a friend at CrossFit,

581
00:30:57.519 --> 00:30:59.759
I'm scared that Rowan will hurt the kids to her.

582
00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:03.480
She also told her mother that she needed to write

583
00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:06.160
a will to dictate who would care for the children

584
00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:09.039
if Rowan killed her and went to jail. She was

585
00:31:09.160 --> 00:31:13.519
genuinely scared for her life. Days before Christmas, Rowan had

586
00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:16.599
the children for a scheduled visit and was supposed to

587
00:31:16.680 --> 00:31:19.279
return them to the Clark family so they could leave

588
00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:22.160
for a quick holiday on the Sunshine Coast, but he

589
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:25.759
refused to return them. Hannah and her family were left

590
00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:30.720
wondering if he intended to keep the children from them altogether. Eventually,

591
00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:34.480
Rowan relented, but only after returning the children hours later

592
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:38.359
than agreed. The clerks allowed him to spend Christmas Day

593
00:31:38.359 --> 00:31:40.960
with them after he broke down in tears to Lloyd,

594
00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:44.039
saddened at the prospect of spending the day without them.

595
00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:48.400
Sue Hannah's mom, she they did not get along. She

596
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:50.759
and Rowan did not get along, and she was like,

597
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:54.440
I did not want him there on Christmas. But Lloyd

598
00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:58.759
and Hannah were both empathetic to him and let him

599
00:31:58.759 --> 00:31:59.359
spend the day.

600
00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:02.839
Yeah, it's just terrifying to me, the thought of him

601
00:32:02.920 --> 00:32:05.799
even having the children some of the time when she

602
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:09.039
was obviously so scared that he was going to harm

603
00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:11.759
her or them to get back at her. I can't

604
00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:15.079
imagine just how scary it must have been to let

605
00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:17.160
the children go with him for a day or whatever.

606
00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:18.279
Yeah, just wait.

607
00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:22.839
But Christmas brought another disappointment. Rowan gave the children gift

608
00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:25.920
cards as presents, but when they later tried to use them,

609
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:28.599
they discovered there was no money on them.

610
00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:30.920
So the kids were six, four, and three and he

611
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:33.519
gave them gift cards, but empty gift cards.

612
00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:37.759
Yeah. Awful for Hannah and her family. Incidents like these

613
00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:42.640
reinforced a troubling pattern. Rowan seemed determined to maintain control

614
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:45.759
and create conflict, even when it came at the expense

615
00:32:45.799 --> 00:32:49.519
of his own children. On Boxing Day, the day after Christmas,

616
00:32:49.640 --> 00:32:52.119
Rowan met Hannah and the children at a skate park

617
00:32:52.359 --> 00:32:55.160
so they could play with their new skateboards. When they

618
00:32:55.160 --> 00:32:57.319
were set to leave, he asked Hannah to take the

619
00:32:57.400 --> 00:33:01.680
children overnight. When she refused, he grabbed Leana and ran

620
00:33:01.960 --> 00:33:03.680
put her in the front seat of his car with

621
00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:07.000
no child's safety seat and sped off. He called out

622
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:10.160
to Hannah, this is your fault. All of the children

623
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:13.960
were extremely upset by the incident. Hannah called the police,

624
00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:16.880
but because she had never filed a DVO and there

625
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:20.519
was no official court record of a separation or custody agreement,

626
00:33:20.839 --> 00:33:23.880
there was nothing they could do. For three days, Hannah

627
00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:27.400
didn't know where Leyana was. Rowan brought her to a

628
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:30.920
friend's house in New South Wales. The police were able

629
00:33:30.920 --> 00:33:33.880
to track Rowan down and talk with him, calmly, asking

630
00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:37.720
him to return Leyana to her mother. On December twenty eighth,

631
00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:41.759
Senior Constable Kristen Kent told Hannah that she intended to

632
00:33:41.799 --> 00:33:45.680
apply for a DVO on her behalf. Hannah agreed with

633
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:50.160
the decision and provided an affidavit. Kent believed Rowan had

634
00:33:50.200 --> 00:33:53.960
placed Leana in a dangerous situation and issued a police

635
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:57.759
protection notice preventing him from coming within one hundred meters

636
00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:00.960
of Hannah, the children, or their home home until the

637
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:03.799
matter could be heard in court. She then tried to

638
00:34:03.880 --> 00:34:07.119
contact Rowan to serve the notice, but was unable to

639
00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:11.760
reach him. A Police protection Notice or PPN, is issued

640
00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:15.840
by police in an emergency situation while a DVO is

641
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:19.320
granted by the court. The next morning, police arrived to

642
00:34:19.400 --> 00:34:23.079
serve Rowan with the PPN. The previous evening, he had

643
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:26.320
returned to his home with Leana. He was very upset

644
00:34:26.360 --> 00:34:29.360
about the conditions of the PPN and cried openly to

645
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:33.159
the police, telling them how unfair the whole situation was.

646
00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:36.840
They told him that Hannah had not initiated the PPN,

647
00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:40.480
but the police had. The officers then brought Leana back

648
00:34:40.519 --> 00:34:44.000
to Hannah. This was actually a pivotal point in the

649
00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:47.519
case that would later be scrutinized. Rowan could have been

650
00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:51.280
arrested and taken into custody, but the officers decided not

651
00:34:51.400 --> 00:34:54.760
to escalate the situation any further and instead gave him

652
00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:58.199
a notice to appear in court in March. I can't

653
00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:01.559
imagine how terrifying them to bend for Hannah not knowing

654
00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:04.719
where her daughter was for how many days? Three days?

655
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:05.800
It's so awful.

656
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:08.800
Leanna was only four years old, but she had this

657
00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:12.360
sweetness about her that she was able to calm her

658
00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:14.960
father down more than anyone else, Like she could tell

659
00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:18.360
when he was angry, and she just had this soothing

660
00:35:18.360 --> 00:35:21.079
effect on him, which no child should ever be placed

661
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:23.719
in that situation, especially at the age of four.

662
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:27.000
Yeah, but it just tells you something about her personality,

663
00:35:27.159 --> 00:35:31.519
like she knew that she had an intuition. Yeah, it's heartbreaking.

664
00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:36.480
In the weeks after Hannah left, Rowan called dozens of friends, acquaintances,

665
00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:40.159
and former gym members, portraying himself as the victim and

666
00:35:40.280 --> 00:35:43.400
Hannah as an unreasonable mother who was keeping him from

667
00:35:43.400 --> 00:35:46.239
his children. During many of the calls, he broke down

668
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:50.280
in tears, winning sympathy from those around him. Over and over,

669
00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:54.159
he persuaded people that he was the victim. Some even

670
00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:56.679
contacted Hannah to tell her that Rowan was a good

671
00:35:56.719 --> 00:35:59.599
father and that she was wrong to restrict his access

672
00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:02.679
to the children. He would settle for nothing less than

673
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:07.000
fifty percent custody, but Rowan wasn't telling them the whole story.

674
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:11.400
His friends worried about Rowan's seemingly fragile mental state and

675
00:36:11.559 --> 00:36:14.719
feared that he might take his own life, But Hannah

676
00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:18.760
had been more than fair. Even after Rowan's increasingly erratic

677
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:22.639
behavior and his decision to take Leyana without permission, she

678
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:26.800
continued to facilitate contact between him and the children. Whenever

679
00:36:26.840 --> 00:36:29.960
she believed it was safe to do so. Aliyah, who

680
00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:33.840
was feisty, refused to see her father after he abducted Leyana.

681
00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:38.159
On January eighth, Rowan appeared in court and contested the

682
00:36:38.280 --> 00:36:44.039
domestic violence order. The parties also negotiated interim parenting arrangements,

683
00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:47.360
allowing Rowan to continue seeing the children while the matter

684
00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:50.639
worked its way through the court system. The case was

685
00:36:50.679 --> 00:36:54.519
adjourned until February fifth, twenty twenty. In the meantime, a

686
00:36:54.599 --> 00:36:59.800
temporary protection order prohibited Rowan from committing domestic violence, exposing

687
00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:03.679
the children to domestic violence, coming within one hundred meters

688
00:37:03.719 --> 00:37:07.719
of Hannah's home, or contacting Hannah except in relation to

689
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:11.000
the children. The court also ordered Rowan to pay three

690
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:14.280
hundred and sixty dollars per month in child support, but

691
00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:18.199
he was working very little during this tumultuous time. He

692
00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:20.960
was seeing a therapist who he was also able to

693
00:37:21.039 --> 00:37:25.119
manipulate into thinking he was mentally healthy. They even wrote

694
00:37:25.159 --> 00:37:27.679
a letter to the court on his behalf saying there

695
00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:29.880
was no reason that he shouldn't be able to have

696
00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:31.239
custody of his children.

697
00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:34.119
So this is how good and manipulative he was. He

698
00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:36.800
was even able to manipulate this therapist.

699
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:40.880
Yeah, and like you said earlier, he didn't show any

700
00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:43.599
signs of He tried not to show red flags to

701
00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:46.719
anybody other than Hannah, so a lot of people outside

702
00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:50.880
just couldn't see it. On January fourteenth, Rowan emailed Hannah's

703
00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:53.800
lawyers complaining that he had not seen his children in

704
00:37:53.840 --> 00:37:56.960
twenty four hours later. The tone of the email was

705
00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:02.639
described as patronizing, aggressive, and on that same day police

706
00:38:02.679 --> 00:38:05.199
went to Rowan's house to talk to him about domestic

707
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:09.880
violence and to offer resources for support. Three days later,

708
00:38:10.039 --> 00:38:13.880
Hannah's lawyers advised Rowan that she had arranged mediation for

709
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:17.719
the following week in an effort to resolve parenting arrangements.

710
00:38:18.199 --> 00:38:22.480
Despite everything that had happened, Hannah continued to facilitate FaceTime

711
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:26.239
calls between Rowan and the children while the parties worked

712
00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:29.920
toward a formal agreement. That same day, she applied to

713
00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:34.880
alter the temporary protection order. On January twenty first, Rowan's

714
00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:39.440
lawyers contacted Hannah's lawyers requesting overnight visitation with the children.

715
00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:43.480
So after the incident, when he took Leana, Hannah had

716
00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:45.199
said no more overnight business.

717
00:38:45.400 --> 00:38:48.960
Yeah, who can blame her. Rowan was also contesting the

718
00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:52.679
domestic violence order, claiming Hannah had only applied for it

719
00:38:52.760 --> 00:38:56.599
to gain an advantage in the custody dispute. The following day,

720
00:38:56.679 --> 00:39:00.360
his lawyer advised police that several witnesses would so support

721
00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:03.920
that argument. Hannah agreed to let the children stay with

722
00:39:04.039 --> 00:39:07.159
Rowan for the weekend of January twenty fourth. When the

723
00:39:07.239 --> 00:39:10.800
visit was over, Rowan posted a message on Facebook thanking

724
00:39:10.880 --> 00:39:13.880
friends for their support and declaring that he would not

725
00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:17.320
rest until he had the children fifty percent of the time.

726
00:39:17.800 --> 00:39:21.159
But the children were becoming increasingly reluctant to spend time

727
00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:24.159
with their father. He was quick tempered with them and

728
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:27.440
often peppered them with questions about Hannah, wanting to know

729
00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:30.599
who she was talking to and whether she was dating anyone.

730
00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:33.239
So Rowan was the kind of father who was even

731
00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:37.000
competitive with his small children, and he like if they

732
00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:39.519
were doing a foot race, he would have to win

733
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:42.239
the foot race. And again, the kids were six, four

734
00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:42.679
and three.

735
00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:47.360
Wow, that's really just sick. On January thirtieth, Rowan had

736
00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:51.400
the children for another overnight visit. During the evening, Aliah

737
00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:55.400
facetimed Hannah in tears. She said her father was driving

738
00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:58.039
them on a highway she didn't recognize and was being

739
00:39:58.119 --> 00:40:01.320
mean to her. The following more morning, after Rowan dropped

740
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:04.079
her at school, Aliah asked the mother of a friend

741
00:40:04.119 --> 00:40:06.239
if she could borrow a phone to call her mother.

742
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:10.199
Alia again, is just so whip smart that she knows

743
00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:13.199
that she needs to tell Hannah everything that's going on.

744
00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:14.400
Yeah, it's super.

745
00:40:14.679 --> 00:40:19.280
Josren really loved her and they were so bonded with her.

746
00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:23.559
Yeah, sounds like it. Later that day, Hannah approached Rowan's

747
00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:26.840
car while he was dropping off Trey and noticed explicit

748
00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:31.360
photographs of herself inside the vehicle. Horrified, she reached in

749
00:40:31.400 --> 00:40:35.039
and grabbed them. Rowan responded by grabbing her wrist with

750
00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:38.960
enough force to cause injury. Sue Clark called the police,

751
00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:43.079
and Hannah later sought medical treatment. A doctor diagnosed her

752
00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:45.639
with a sprained wrist and fitted her with a splint.

753
00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:49.440
Police spoke with Rowan about the photographs, reminding him that

754
00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:52.639
possessing them was a breach of the domestic violence order.

755
00:40:53.239 --> 00:40:56.320
Rowan claimed the images had accidentally fallen out of a

756
00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:00.239
file he was keeping for the ongoing court proceedings. He

757
00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:03.760
refused to discuss the matter further telling officers it would

758
00:41:03.800 --> 00:41:07.400
be dealt with in court. The following day, Rowan was

759
00:41:07.400 --> 00:41:10.519
fired from his job as a personal trainer. He later

760
00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:13.239
claimed it was because Hannah had joined the gym and

761
00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:16.440
other members threatened to cancel their memberships if he remained

762
00:41:16.440 --> 00:41:20.639
employed there. However, his attendance had been spotty, making that

763
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:24.719
a more likely explanation. At the same time, Rowan was

764
00:41:24.760 --> 00:41:28.519
bombarding his lawyer with emails, phone calls, and text messages.

765
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:32.320
The attorney, who was representing him on a pro bono basis,

766
00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:35.840
struggled to keep up with the constant stream of communication.

767
00:41:36.639 --> 00:41:42.039
Rowan appeared increasingly agitated and consumed by the separation. Friends

768
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:44.719
described him as being in a frantic state, and some

769
00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:48.599
became genuinely concerned that he might take his own life.

770
00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:50.519
Will be back after a break.

771
00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:00.000
This is the hard part. It had been a life

772
00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:03.239
weeks or seventy seven days since Hannah and the children

773
00:42:03.320 --> 00:42:06.880
left Rowan. Hannah thought they were safe. She had finally

774
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:09.280
done what she'd wanted to do for so long, but

775
00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:14.719
had been too frightened to attempt. She had left her abuser. Hannah, Aliah, Leanna,

776
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:17.159
and Trey had so much life to look forward to

777
00:42:17.800 --> 00:42:20.079
Hannah had even set her sights on a new career

778
00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:23.719
as a police officer. Sue Clark later said that Hannah

779
00:42:23.800 --> 00:42:27.000
was as light as a feather during those weeks. She

780
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:30.400
and the children were happy, and Sue and Lloyd treasured

781
00:42:30.440 --> 00:42:34.519
being part of Hannah and their grandchildren's daily lives. They

782
00:42:34.559 --> 00:42:38.199
remained grateful for that time together and the memories they made.

783
00:42:38.679 --> 00:42:41.440
Not long before her death, Hannah told her friend, I'm

784
00:42:41.519 --> 00:42:45.480
so glad I got out when I did. I'm safe. Sadly,

785
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:48.280
for Hannah and for so many other women, the most

786
00:42:48.360 --> 00:42:51.960
dangerous time in an abusive relationship is after you leave.

787
00:42:52.719 --> 00:42:56.599
February nineteenth, twenty twenty, began as a normal Wednesday for

788
00:42:56.639 --> 00:42:59.159
the Clark family. It was the height of summer in

789
00:42:59.239 --> 00:43:03.159
Queensland and temperatures would climb to thirty four degrees celsius

790
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:06.840
or ninety three degrees fahrenheit. Sue and Lloyd left her

791
00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:09.800
work while Hannah got herself and the children ready for school.

792
00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:13.199
At seven, A m Rowan bought a coffee from a

793
00:43:13.239 --> 00:43:16.400
shop near the Clark home. He mentioned to the barista

794
00:43:16.480 --> 00:43:20.000
that he was fighting with the ex missus to day.

795
00:43:20.679 --> 00:43:24.360
She nodded dismissively, Rowan took his coffee outside and spent

796
00:43:24.440 --> 00:43:27.360
the next hour watching people pass by while scrolling through

797
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:31.800
his phone, frequently checking Google Maps. Two days earlier, he

798
00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:36.039
had purchased zip ties, a small jerry can, and methylated

799
00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:39.280
spirits from a hardware store. He later filled the can

800
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:43.679
with four point six liters of petrol and bought three kinderbars.

801
00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:47.239
A jerry can is what we would call a gas can,

802
00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:51.000
and petrol, of course is gas. After he knew Sue

803
00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:53.519
had left her work on the morning of February nineteenth,

804
00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:56.719
Rowan drove to the Clark home and waited. At eight

805
00:43:56.760 --> 00:43:59.679
seventeen a m. Hannah and the children came outside and

806
00:43:59.719 --> 00:44:03.760
began unloading into her silver Keia. Rowan approached the vehicle

807
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:07.079
carrying the green jerry can and climbed into the passenger seat.

808
00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:11.199
He splashed petrol over Hannah and the children, careful not

809
00:44:11.239 --> 00:44:14.639
to get any on himself. Hannah drove off, churning on

810
00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:17.639
Too Raven Street, where she spotted a man washing his

811
00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:21.760
car with her window down. She screamed, help, help, he's

812
00:44:21.800 --> 00:44:24.800
covered us in petrol. Call the police. He's going to

813
00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:28.280
kill me. She pulled the vehicle over and tried to escape.

814
00:44:28.360 --> 00:44:31.239
But Rowan held her down. Hannah had one hand on

815
00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:33.920
the door handle and was about to free herself when

816
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:37.599
Rowan pulled a lighter from his pocket. He flicked it

817
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:40.599
until it ignited and dropped it inside the car before

818
00:44:40.639 --> 00:44:45.119
climbing out. The Kia erupted into flames almost instantly. At

819
00:44:45.159 --> 00:44:47.760
the last moment, Hannah managed to break free, but the

820
00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:51.599
flames engulfed her. Witnesses could feel the intense heat. As

821
00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:55.719
the fire consumed the vehicle, four loud explosions echoed through

822
00:44:55.760 --> 00:44:59.760
the neighborhood. The man washing his car immediately rushed to help.

823
00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:03.000
He sprayed Hannah with a hose, extinguishing the flames on

824
00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:06.280
her body, and tried to keep her cool. He suffered

825
00:45:06.280 --> 00:45:09.039
burns to his face and arms, but could not get

826
00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:12.360
close enough to the vehicle to see the children trapped inside.

827
00:45:13.039 --> 00:45:16.159
Rowan was also on fire, and the man briefly turned

828
00:45:16.360 --> 00:45:20.039
his attention to him. The street descended into chaos as

829
00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:23.039
neighbors rushed to help. It took a moment before anyone

830
00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:26.679
realized that children were inside the vehicle. One man broke

831
00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:30.039
his arm attempting to assist, while others suffered burns from

832
00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:33.199
the extreme heat of the fire. It was simply too

833
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:36.960
intense for anyone to reach the children. A woman took

834
00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:41.239
over the hose and continued cooling Hannah's burns. Though gravely injured,

835
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:45.119
Hannah remained conscious and repeatedly asked whether her babies were safe.

836
00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:49.239
Another neighbor emerged with a fire extinguisher and tried desperately

837
00:45:49.559 --> 00:45:52.800
to contain the flames. Quote. It sounded like a bomb

838
00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:55.559
went off. It was so loud, I felt shock waves.

839
00:45:56.079 --> 00:45:59.559
The car was in gold and flames almost instantly. The

840
00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:02.000
home ter ran inside and told his daughter to call

841
00:46:02.119 --> 00:46:05.159
zero zero zero. It was eight twenty six a m.

842
00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:09.480
First responders rushed to the scene. Despite suffering burns to

843
00:46:09.559 --> 00:46:12.400
eighty percent of his body, Rowan was still alive. He

844
00:46:12.480 --> 00:46:15.599
returned to the burning vehicle, retrieved a knife from the floor,

845
00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:18.840
and stabbed himself twice in the abdomen at once in

846
00:46:18.840 --> 00:46:22.360
the chest. He went into cardiac arrest shortly after and

847
00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:24.719
died at nine fourteen a m. Before he could be

848
00:46:24.760 --> 00:46:28.480
transported to the hospital. Rowan Charles Baxter, was forty two

849
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:31.679
years old. No drugs or alcohol were found in his system.

850
00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:35.719
Despite suffering burns to ninety seven percent of her body,

851
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:38.920
with only the soles of her feet untouched. Hannah was

852
00:46:38.960 --> 00:46:42.199
able to tell police what had happened and identify Rowan

853
00:46:42.280 --> 00:46:46.880
as the person responsible. Paramedics struggled to establish IV access

854
00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:49.719
because with the severity of her burns, so they administered

855
00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:53.480
morphine into her thigh muscle to ease the pain. First

856
00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:57.400
responders understood that her injuries were likely unsurvivable and focused

857
00:46:57.440 --> 00:47:01.039
on keeping her as comfortable as possible. Hannah said quote,

858
00:47:01.159 --> 00:47:03.239
I hope he survives in rots in jail for the

859
00:47:03.239 --> 00:47:05.960
rest of his life. She was later intubated at the

860
00:47:05.960 --> 00:47:10.000
scene and transported to Royal Brisbane and Woman's Hospital. Hannah

861
00:47:10.039 --> 00:47:12.920
survived long enough for her family to say goodbye. She

862
00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:17.000
died at five forty PM at thirty one years of age. Aliyah, Leanna,

863
00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:19.760
and Trey died almost immediately, So.

864
00:47:19.760 --> 00:47:23.360
It sounds like Hannah was conscious enough and aware enough

865
00:47:23.400 --> 00:47:26.760
that she probably knew that the children didn't make it.

866
00:47:27.159 --> 00:47:29.199
I don't think she knew. I think she was clinging

867
00:47:29.239 --> 00:47:31.559
to hope, and when she got the hospital. To the hospital,

868
00:47:31.599 --> 00:47:33.519
I believe a doctor said to her, you need to

869
00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:36.079
worry about yourself now and not the children. So I

870
00:47:36.159 --> 00:47:38.519
think it was important that she clung to the hope

871
00:47:38.559 --> 00:47:38.920
that they.

872
00:47:38.840 --> 00:47:40.840
Were still alive. I hope so.

873
00:47:41.480 --> 00:47:44.159
The people of Queensland were devastated by the murders of

874
00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:47.039
Hannah and her children. In the days that followed, thousands

875
00:47:47.079 --> 00:47:50.840
gathered at vigils across the state. Hannah's family were deeply

876
00:47:50.920 --> 00:47:53.559
moved by the outpouring of support and attended a public

877
00:47:53.639 --> 00:47:57.880
vigil in Brisbane. Storybridge, Victoria Bridge and City Hall were

878
00:47:57.920 --> 00:48:01.719
illuminated in pink, Hannah's favorite color, to honor her Aliyah,

879
00:48:01.840 --> 00:48:06.199
Leanna and Trey. After the murder's, previously unseen body camera

880
00:48:06.199 --> 00:48:09.800
footage of Rowan's interactions with police came to light. The

881
00:48:09.880 --> 00:48:13.079
footage had been recorded after he took Leyana across state

882
00:48:13.159 --> 00:48:16.719
lines without permission. During the encounter, as young Leyana clung

883
00:48:16.760 --> 00:48:20.559
to her father, Rowan complained that women could make false

884
00:48:20.599 --> 00:48:25.360
allegations of domestic violence against their partners. One officer appeared

885
00:48:25.400 --> 00:48:29.519
to agree, responding, yeah, you're right. The video sparked outrage

886
00:48:29.559 --> 00:48:32.320
across Australia, with many viewing it as evidence of a

887
00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:35.960
broader culture in which allegations of domestic abuse were too

888
00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:41.719
often minimized or dismissed. Perhaps most troubling, internal police documents

889
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:46.159
later revealed that investigators questioned the veracity and motive of

890
00:48:46.159 --> 00:48:50.519
Hannah's domestic violence allegations after the murders. Critics argued that

891
00:48:50.559 --> 00:48:55.119
the scrutiny reflected a lingering skepticism toward Hannah's claims, despite

892
00:48:55.159 --> 00:48:58.360
the extensive evidence that had emerged about Rowan's abuse have

893
00:48:58.440 --> 00:49:03.880
been controlling behavior. Deputy State Coroner Jane Bentley became emotional

894
00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:06.360
as she delivered her findings at the conclusion of a

895
00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:10.960
nine day inquest. Thirty four witnesses had testified, hundreds of

896
00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:14.239
documents had been reviewed, and the court had spent years

897
00:49:14.280 --> 00:49:18.239
examining the events that led to the deaths of Hannah, Aliyah, Leanna,

898
00:49:18.360 --> 00:49:22.320
and Trey. In the end, Bentley reached a sobering conclusion

899
00:49:22.599 --> 00:49:26.480
it was unlikely that police, domestic violent services, friends or

900
00:49:26.559 --> 00:49:30.159
family could have prevented the murders once Rowan Baxter had

901
00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:33.360
decided he was going to carry them out. The evidence

902
00:49:33.559 --> 00:49:37.400
painted a troubling picture of Rowan. Friends, family members, colleagues,

903
00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:40.039
and former gym members described a man who was controlling,

904
00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:44.760
intensely competitive, and unwilling to accept rejection. He always needed

905
00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:47.239
to be the alpha male. He hated being told no.

906
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:50.960
If someone out performed him. He often accused them of cheating.

907
00:49:51.239 --> 00:49:54.719
At the gym, He pushed clients to exhaustion and even

908
00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:58.920
ejected gym members who he felt weren't working hard enough.

909
00:49:59.199 --> 00:50:03.719
He frequently exaggerated, manipulated situations to cast himself as the victim,

910
00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:08.639
and demanded constant admiration from those around him. Jane Bentley

911
00:50:08.719 --> 00:50:11.800
rejected the notion that Rowan's actions were the result of

912
00:50:11.840 --> 00:50:16.239
mental illness. Quote Rowan Baxter was not mentally ill. He

913
00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:19.559
was a master of manipulation. After Hannah left him, he

914
00:50:19.639 --> 00:50:22.679
realized she had obtained support and he could no longer

915
00:50:22.719 --> 00:50:26.320
control her. He received funds and support from a number

916
00:50:26.360 --> 00:50:29.360
of friends and family members who believed his lies that

917
00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:32.159
Hannah was treating him badly and that he was being

918
00:50:32.199 --> 00:50:36.400
victimized by her. Baxter made numerous appointments for counseling and

919
00:50:36.519 --> 00:50:39.079
with doctors. All of these were designed to assist him

920
00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:43.119
to contest the domestic violence order application and influenced the

921
00:50:43.119 --> 00:50:45.920
family court process in his favor. He did not have

922
00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:49.199
any wish to obtain counseling or address his problems. He

923
00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:53.159
manipulated doctors and psychologist. When Baxter concluded that he had

924
00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:55.920
totally lost control over Hannah. He killed her and her

925
00:50:55.960 --> 00:51:00.159
three children. Baxter understood the extent of the atrocities he

926
00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:02.360
had committed. He did not want to live with the

927
00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:07.519
public denunciation and punishment he would receive. End quote. In

928
00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:12.199
the inquest, Bentley noted that domestic violence incidents accounted for

929
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:16.119
as much as half of Queensland Police workload and concluded

930
00:51:16.159 --> 00:51:19.880
that more specialized training was needed. She recommended a five

931
00:51:19.960 --> 00:51:24.920
day domestic violence training program for specialist officers, mandatory annual

932
00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:28.599
domestic violence training for all Queensland police, in a year

933
00:51:28.639 --> 00:51:32.320
long trial of a specialist domestic violence police station that

934
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:37.000
would bring together police, support workers, child safety, housing, health

935
00:51:37.039 --> 00:51:41.679
and legal services under one roof. So this inquest was

936
00:51:41.760 --> 00:51:44.599
kind of a big deal in Queensland. And at the

937
00:51:44.679 --> 00:51:46.599
end of it she said that they did everything that

938
00:51:46.639 --> 00:51:50.519
they could, but a lot of people publicly had issued

939
00:51:50.599 --> 00:51:53.360
took issue with this because they said that you know,

940
00:51:53.400 --> 00:51:56.519
there were warning signs that you know Rowan should have

941
00:51:56.519 --> 00:51:59.760
been arrested and you know the police should have intervened

942
00:51:59.760 --> 00:52:00.599
more aggressively.

943
00:52:01.039 --> 00:52:03.239
Yeah, it sure seems like it, and I guess it

944
00:52:03.320 --> 00:52:06.400
points to one of the issues with coercive control is

945
00:52:06.440 --> 00:52:10.440
that because there isn't always physical violence associated with it,

946
00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:12.760
It's probably easy for the police to kind of overlook

947
00:52:12.800 --> 00:52:15.079
it and say, oh, it's not really anything we need

948
00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:19.039
to be concerned about. But I could see that training

949
00:52:19.119 --> 00:52:22.119
could help with that and help them recognize maybe some

950
00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:23.039
of those signs.

951
00:52:23.159 --> 00:52:26.519
I was surprised when they said that fifty percent of

952
00:52:26.559 --> 00:52:31.360
what the police do is ConTroll domestic violence. Of course

953
00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:34.079
that makes sense, but it just kind of shocks.

954
00:52:33.880 --> 00:52:35.159
Kind of mind boggling though. Yeah.

955
00:52:35.360 --> 00:52:37.840
And we do count on our police here too to

956
00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:41.280
do everything, and often they are not given the training.

957
00:52:41.360 --> 00:52:43.719
A lot of it comes down to, you know, like

958
00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:48.760
understanding the psychology of a human being, right, And that's

959
00:52:49.199 --> 00:52:51.320
a lot to ask it, it's a lot to ask, Yeah,

960
00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:53.239
and definitely more training will help.

961
00:52:53.360 --> 00:52:57.239
Yeah. At the close of the inquest, Lloyd Clark delivered

962
00:52:57.239 --> 00:53:00.599
a victim impact statement on behalf of Hannah and children.

963
00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:04.639
Speaking in the voice of his grandchildren, he asked, why

964
00:53:04.639 --> 00:53:07.039
would you hurt us, Daddy? Why would you take away

965
00:53:07.079 --> 00:53:10.400
our futures with all the promise and possibility that we had.

966
00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:13.880
Why would you take away our laughter, our games, our

967
00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:17.280
reading and dancing and singing and play. Why didn't you

968
00:53:17.360 --> 00:53:21.159
love us like a father is supposed to. Speaking for Hannah,

969
00:53:21.239 --> 00:53:24.079
he asked, why couldn't you be a better man, a

970
00:53:24.159 --> 00:53:27.360
better father, a better husband. Why did you have to

971
00:53:27.400 --> 00:53:29.519
be such a coward and bully to us for so

972
00:53:29.599 --> 00:53:32.840
many years? Why couldn't you leave us alone to live

973
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:35.920
our lives in peace? Why did you always have to

974
00:53:35.960 --> 00:53:41.400
have the last manipulative, vindictive word. Then Lloyd spoke for himself,

975
00:53:41.440 --> 00:53:45.480
and Sue, we have spent two years asking why, he said,

976
00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:48.760
why would a parent do that to his children? Why

977
00:53:48.800 --> 00:53:51.599
would a husband do that to his wife? And why

978
00:53:51.639 --> 00:53:55.519
didn't we see it coming? Sue Clark also addressed the court,

979
00:53:55.800 --> 00:53:59.320
describing a grief that touched every part of her family's lives.

980
00:54:00.159 --> 00:54:02.480
What we have suffered has cost us so much in

981
00:54:02.559 --> 00:54:07.679
every sense of the word, emotionally, physically, financially. Our grief

982
00:54:07.880 --> 00:54:11.519
is all consuming. Not one day has passed without tears.

983
00:54:11.880 --> 00:54:15.639
There is no rest, no escape. I can't bring myself

984
00:54:15.679 --> 00:54:18.400
to pack up their toys. We will never get to

985
00:54:18.400 --> 00:54:21.559
see them graduate, or marry, or have children of their own.

986
00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:24.639
Our hearts break that they were never given the chance

987
00:54:24.719 --> 00:54:28.599
to grow and excel and be happy. A better understanding

988
00:54:28.679 --> 00:54:32.000
of coercive control won't change what we have suffered. It

989
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:34.920
won't bring back the love that has disappeared from our lives,

990
00:54:35.400 --> 00:54:37.840
but we do hope that a community that stands up

991
00:54:37.880 --> 00:54:41.840
against coercive control will stop others suffering the same fate.

992
00:54:42.800 --> 00:54:46.079
For Sue and Lloyd Clark, the questions of why will

993
00:54:46.119 --> 00:54:49.639
never fully be answered, but they have dedicated their lives

994
00:54:49.679 --> 00:54:53.920
to ensuring that Hannah, Aliyah, Leanna and Trey are remembered

995
00:54:54.239 --> 00:54:57.400
and that other families do not endure the same tragedy.

996
00:54:58.320 --> 00:55:01.480
In twenty twenty one, Sue and Lawy Clark founded Small

997
00:55:01.519 --> 00:55:05.519
Steps for Hannah, a charity dedicated to raising awareness about

998
00:55:05.559 --> 00:55:10.119
coercive control and supporting victims of domestic and family violence.

999
00:55:10.880 --> 00:55:13.880
The name was inspired by the heartbreaking detail that the

1000
00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:16.440
souls of Hannah's feet were the only part of her

1001
00:55:16.480 --> 00:55:20.119
body untouched by the fire that washed over her. An

1002
00:55:20.119 --> 00:55:23.320
anonymous donor later provided land for the charity to build

1003
00:55:23.360 --> 00:55:27.239
a residential complex that would offer support and accommodation to

1004
00:55:27.320 --> 00:55:32.400
women and children escaping domestic violence. The Clark's tireless advocacy

1005
00:55:32.559 --> 00:55:37.320
has helped change the conversation around coercive control in Queensland

1006
00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:41.480
and across Australia. In January twenty twenty two, they were

1007
00:55:41.559 --> 00:55:45.719
named Queensland Australians of the Year. In recognition of their work.

1008
00:55:46.400 --> 00:55:49.440
A park in camp Hill, the suburb where Hannah grew up,

1009
00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:54.239
was also renamed Hannah's Place in her memory. Earlier this year,

1010
00:55:54.480 --> 00:55:57.320
Sue and Lloyd announced they would be stepping away from

1011
00:55:57.320 --> 00:56:00.320
the day to day leadership of Small Steps for Hannah.

1012
00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:05.159
After years of advocacy, fundraising, public speaking and supporting other

1013
00:56:05.239 --> 00:56:08.719
families affected by domestic violence, they said it was time

1014
00:56:08.760 --> 00:56:12.239
to focus on themselves and their family. While they may

1015
00:56:12.239 --> 00:56:15.480
be stepping back from the organization they built, their impact

1016
00:56:15.519 --> 00:56:19.159
on domestic violence awareness in Australia will continue to be

1017
00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:20.599
felt for years to come.

1018
00:56:21.159 --> 00:56:23.559
Ice on an interview with them, and they're just the

1019
00:56:23.639 --> 00:56:27.280
loveliest people, and I think their hearts are broken and

1020
00:56:27.320 --> 00:56:30.199
they just have never really grieved. They've never taken the

1021
00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:35.239
time to grieve because they started their advocacy work right away.

1022
00:56:35.599 --> 00:56:37.599
So I think that's why they decided that they needed

1023
00:56:37.599 --> 00:56:39.840
to take a step back and take care of themselves.

1024
00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:43.519
Yeah, it sounds like a good idea. While Hannah's story

1025
00:56:43.599 --> 00:56:48.639
shocked Australia, domestic violence remains a global crisis. According to

1026
00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:51.679
the United Nations, an average of one hundred and forty

1027
00:56:51.719 --> 00:56:55.239
women and girls are killed every day by an intimate

1028
00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:59.320
partner or family member, amounting to more than fifty thousand

1029
00:56:59.360 --> 00:57:03.880
deaths each year. In Australia, roughly one woman is killed

1030
00:57:03.920 --> 00:57:07.400
every week by a current or former partner. In the

1031
00:57:07.519 --> 00:57:09.880
United States, the number is even higher.

1032
00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:13.960
Despite major reforms inspired by the murders of Hannah Clark

1033
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:17.960
and her children, significant gaps remain in Queensland's response to

1034
00:57:18.199 --> 00:57:23.000
domestic violence. In twenty twenty five, a Guardian Australia investigation

1035
00:57:23.480 --> 00:57:26.360
raised new questions about the police response in the months

1036
00:57:26.440 --> 00:57:29.519
leading up to the murders. Central to the reporting were

1037
00:57:29.519 --> 00:57:32.719
more than two hundred pages of text messages exchanged between

1038
00:57:32.719 --> 00:57:37.320
Hannah and Senior Constable Kirsten Kent, the specialist domestic violence

1039
00:57:37.360 --> 00:57:41.000
officer assigned to her case. The messages revealed that Hannah

1040
00:57:41.079 --> 00:57:46.280
had disclosed allegations of stalking, non fatal strangulation, phone hacking,

1041
00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:49.320
and fears that Rowan would kill her. In one message,

1042
00:57:49.360 --> 00:57:52.679
she wrote, I know given the opportunity he wouldn't hesitate

1043
00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:55.159
to kill me. I can see the look in his eyes.

1044
00:57:55.480 --> 00:57:58.599
According to the investigation, some of those disclosures were never

1045
00:57:58.679 --> 00:58:02.800
formally recorded, and the police systems or investigated as potential

1046
00:58:02.840 --> 00:58:07.000
criminal offenses, potentially affecting the level of risk assigned to

1047
00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:10.599
Hannah's case. The article also revealed that Rowan had become

1048
00:58:10.599 --> 00:58:15.119
fixated on Hannah's relationship with Officer Kent after the murderer's

1049
00:58:15.119 --> 00:58:18.760
investigators found a note in which Rowan complained about their friendship,

1050
00:58:18.840 --> 00:58:22.800
writing you have a social attachment with her. A whistleblower

1051
00:58:23.239 --> 00:58:26.800
alleged that police failed to adequately examine the significance of

1052
00:58:26.800 --> 00:58:30.840
that relationship or how Rowan's resentment of it may have

1053
00:58:30.880 --> 00:58:35.400
increased the danger that Hannah faced. The investigation also highlighted

1054
00:58:35.519 --> 00:58:39.159
body camera footage showing officers advising Rowan on how to

1055
00:58:39.320 --> 00:58:43.559
challenge a protective order and discussing domestic violence allegations in

1056
00:58:43.599 --> 00:58:47.119
a way critics viewed as inappropriate. While the coroner had

1057
00:58:47.119 --> 00:58:51.199
previously concluded that police generally acted appropriately, the reporting raised

1058
00:58:51.519 --> 00:58:54.320
fresh questions about whether the full extent of the danger

1059
00:58:54.360 --> 00:58:59.199
Hannah faced was ever recognized, and whether missed opportunities may

1060
00:58:59.239 --> 00:59:03.880
have contributed to the tragedy. Prevention of Domestic and Family

1061
00:59:03.960 --> 00:59:08.280
Violence Minister d Farmer told SBS News Australia that the

1062
00:59:08.320 --> 00:59:11.559
shocking deaths of the Clark family resulted in more people

1063
00:59:11.679 --> 00:59:15.159
seeking help to stop the cycle of abuse. Quote. I've

1064
00:59:15.199 --> 00:59:18.280
spoken with many people who work in the DFV sector

1065
00:59:18.519 --> 00:59:21.599
and everyone has been absolutely devastated by the deaths of

1066
00:59:21.639 --> 00:59:25.079
Hannah and her little babies. But they've also seen in

1067
00:59:25.119 --> 00:59:28.079
the last few days that we've had an incredible surgeon

1068
00:59:28.159 --> 00:59:31.800
calls from people asking for help, and importantly from people

1069
00:59:31.960 --> 00:59:35.880
asking to help to stop being violent. So after the

1070
00:59:35.920 --> 00:59:39.039
deaths of Hannah and the children, men were coming forward

1071
00:59:39.159 --> 00:59:43.280
saying I need help stopping being a domestic abuser. And

1072
00:59:43.360 --> 00:59:46.599
something I forgot to mention was that Rowan I don't

1073
00:59:46.599 --> 00:59:49.519
know if he mentioned it, but a few days before

1074
00:59:49.840 --> 00:59:53.119
the murders he reached out for help too. Why his

1075
00:59:53.239 --> 00:59:54.400
calls were never answered?

1076
00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:54.679
Wow.

1077
00:59:55.400 --> 00:59:58.320
A life insurance policy Rowan had taken out, combined with

1078
00:59:58.440 --> 01:00:01.840
donations from thousands of US Australians moved by the tragedy,

1079
01:00:02.280 --> 01:00:05.960
left an estate worth more than three point five million dollars.

1080
01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:08.960
Sue and Lloyd Clark inherited the funds, but the estate

1081
01:00:09.079 --> 01:00:12.599
soon became the subject of a legal dispute. Rowan's son

1082
01:00:12.639 --> 01:00:16.239
from his first marriage, Isaiah Baxter filed a claim seeking

1083
01:00:16.239 --> 01:00:19.639
a share of the estate. Core documents, he described the

1084
01:00:19.679 --> 01:00:22.719
deaths of his father, Hannah, and his half siblings as

1085
01:00:22.719 --> 01:00:26.119
incredibly traumatizing and said that he expected to live with

1086
01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:29.239
the effects for the rest of his life. Isaiah argued

1087
01:00:29.280 --> 01:00:31.840
that he was entitled to a portion of the proceeds,

1088
01:00:32.039 --> 01:00:35.440
while also describing a lifetime of estrangement from his father.

1089
01:00:35.880 --> 01:00:38.880
He alleged that Rowan had been abusive in controlling towards

1090
01:00:38.960 --> 01:00:43.239
him and his mother, before later directing that behavior towards Hannah.

1091
01:00:43.719 --> 01:00:47.480
Despite the lawsuit, Isaiah wrote warmly of Hannah and the children.

1092
01:00:47.639 --> 01:00:49.920
He said he'd loved them deeply, and described Sue and

1093
01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:53.599
Lloyd Clark as his second grandparents. I think that the

1094
01:00:53.639 --> 01:00:57.639
Clarks must have settled this privately, because I didn't read

1095
01:00:57.679 --> 01:01:01.039
anymore about it. Hannah Ashley Clark was only thirty one

1096
01:01:01.119 --> 01:01:03.480
years old. She was a devoted mother who loved her

1097
01:01:03.559 --> 01:01:06.599
children fiercely and worked tirelessly to build a safe and

1098
01:01:06.639 --> 01:01:09.639
happy life for them. She was a talented athlete, a

1099
01:01:09.679 --> 01:01:11.920
loyal friend. At the time of her death, she was

1100
01:01:11.960 --> 01:01:16.519
excited about her future. Aliyah Anne six was bright, loved

1101
01:01:16.519 --> 01:01:19.440
to read, and took her role as a big sister seriously.

1102
01:01:19.920 --> 01:01:23.679
She was sassy, intuitive, and fiercely protective of her mother.

1103
01:01:24.440 --> 01:01:27.719
Leanna Grace four had recently started preschool and was known

1104
01:01:27.760 --> 01:01:32.039
for her sweet, loving and empathetic nature. She gave legendary hugs,

1105
01:01:32.320 --> 01:01:34.559
even at such a young age. She would try to

1106
01:01:34.559 --> 01:01:36.679
comfort her father when he was in a bad mood.

1107
01:01:37.239 --> 01:01:40.360
Trey rowan Iree was just beginning to discover the world

1108
01:01:40.360 --> 01:01:43.760
around him. He was energetic, deeply attached to his mother,

1109
01:01:44.000 --> 01:01:45.880
and those who knew him believed that he had the

1110
01:01:45.920 --> 01:01:49.599
makings of a talented athlete like his parents. Together, the

1111
01:01:49.719 --> 01:01:52.920
children adored their mother. They loved beach trips, visits to

1112
01:01:52.960 --> 01:01:55.760
the gym, and spending time with family. Most of all,

1113
01:01:55.880 --> 01:01:59.960
they loved being together. Rest in peace, Hannah, Aliyah, Leata

1114
01:02:00.079 --> 01:02:02.199
and Trey. That was tough.

1115
01:02:03.079 --> 01:02:03.360
Tough.

1116
01:02:04.079 --> 01:02:07.639
We already have GPS technology that can alert authorities when

1117
01:02:07.679 --> 01:02:11.519
someone enters a restricted area. Should high risk domestic violence

1118
01:02:11.559 --> 01:02:15.679
offenders be fitted with ankle monitors that notify both police

1119
01:02:15.719 --> 01:02:18.599
and victims if they come from they come within a

1120
01:02:18.639 --> 01:02:19.840
certain distance.

1121
01:02:19.760 --> 01:02:22.679
Seems like a great idea. I mean, I always think

1122
01:02:22.719 --> 01:02:28.559
that when these domestic violence orders get enacted, that you know,

1123
01:02:28.599 --> 01:02:32.159
if somebody wants to go and attack and kill someone,

1124
01:02:32.199 --> 01:02:32.760
they're going to do it.

1125
01:02:32.960 --> 01:02:35.519
Stopping them yet exactly, so they're willing to take their

1126
01:02:35.559 --> 01:02:37.239
own life, Yeah for sure.

1127
01:02:37.320 --> 01:02:39.840
So having something like that seems like it would at

1128
01:02:39.920 --> 01:02:42.719
least help give a notification, give a warning.

1129
01:02:43.360 --> 01:02:46.639
And we have a registry for sex offenders, why can't

1130
01:02:46.679 --> 01:02:49.960
we have, you know, at a registry for domestic violence

1131
01:02:50.000 --> 01:02:50.760
abusers too.

1132
01:02:50.920 --> 01:02:52.079
Yeah, it would make so if you're.

1133
01:02:52.039 --> 01:02:54.440
Dating a new man, you can you know, check to

1134
01:02:54.480 --> 01:02:57.039
see if he has any history of domestic violence.

1135
01:02:57.239 --> 01:02:58.320
Yeah, it's a great idea.

1136
01:02:58.400 --> 01:02:59.880
Why protect abusers?

1137
01:03:00.239 --> 01:03:01.280
Yeah? Absolutely?

1138
01:03:01.760 --> 01:03:03.639
I link this in show notes. But I listened to

1139
01:03:03.719 --> 01:03:07.039
a podcast called I Catch Killers with Gary Jubilin where

1140
01:03:07.119 --> 01:03:10.280
Sue and Lloyd Clark talked with him and they had

1141
01:03:10.280 --> 01:03:12.920
some ideas, Like some of those were ideas that they

1142
01:03:12.960 --> 01:03:16.239
came up with, ye, but they also talked about educating

1143
01:03:16.360 --> 01:03:19.400
young people, especially young boys, and teaching boys that it's

1144
01:03:19.400 --> 01:03:22.239
okay to have emotions. And I think that would be,

1145
01:03:22.599 --> 01:03:26.639
you know, a really good start for future generations because

1146
01:03:26.920 --> 01:03:29.000
you know, when you grew up, you were always told

1147
01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:31.119
to like suck it up right, and you know, if

1148
01:03:31.199 --> 01:03:33.920
you showed too many emotions you were labeled as you know,

1149
01:03:34.079 --> 01:03:36.320
sensitive or a wuss or whatever.

1150
01:03:36.519 --> 01:03:38.039
So yeah, I think.

1151
01:03:37.920 --> 01:03:41.199
Detecting future generations. I think educating people that there aren't

1152
01:03:41.239 --> 01:03:43.559
male and female emotions, there's just emotion.

1153
01:03:43.920 --> 01:03:46.079
Yeah. I think it's a great idea, and I think

1154
01:03:46.119 --> 01:03:48.920
so many things can go back to education and just

1155
01:03:49.519 --> 01:03:52.440
helping you know, kids earlier in their life to be

1156
01:03:52.480 --> 01:03:56.280
able to deal with their emotions, be able to you know,

1157
01:03:56.599 --> 01:03:59.800
react in a healthy way rather than turning it on

1158
01:03:59.840 --> 01:04:00.599
someone else.

1159
01:04:01.199 --> 01:04:04.760
Deputy State Coroner Jane Bentley concluded that Rowan Baxter was

1160
01:04:04.800 --> 01:04:08.159
not mentally ill, but rather a master manipulator. Do you

1161
01:04:08.199 --> 01:04:09.599
agree with that assessment?

1162
01:04:10.159 --> 01:04:13.599
I don't feel qualified to answer that really. I don't,

1163
01:04:14.239 --> 01:04:17.960
you know, have a degree in psychology or psychiatry.

1164
01:04:18.119 --> 01:04:21.400
I do, but I don't feel that I'm qualified.

1165
01:04:21.400 --> 01:04:23.960
I mean, all I know is he was a horrible,

1166
01:04:24.519 --> 01:04:25.159
horrible man.

1167
01:04:25.239 --> 01:04:27.159
I mean, I think the thing that bothered me was

1168
01:04:27.239 --> 01:04:29.679
the one therapist that he was seeing wrote a letter

1169
01:04:29.719 --> 01:04:31.320
on his behalf to the court.

1170
01:04:31.519 --> 01:04:34.559
Yeah. I think that was pretty I mean, he seems

1171
01:04:34.599 --> 01:04:37.800
like he was so manipulative, like really able to convince

1172
01:04:37.840 --> 01:04:40.840
people that, you know, whatever he wanted to convince them

1173
01:04:40.840 --> 01:04:41.840
he was able to do.

1174
01:04:41.840 --> 01:04:44.440
And he'd only had a handful of sessions with that person,

1175
01:04:44.519 --> 01:04:46.480
so maybe it should be you know, you have to

1176
01:04:46.519 --> 01:04:50.880
have many more sessions before you can write a letter. Yeah,

1177
01:04:51.119 --> 01:04:53.960
Rowan convinced a surprising number of people that he was

1178
01:04:54.000 --> 01:04:56.320
the victim. Why do you think people are often willing

1179
01:04:56.360 --> 01:04:59.519
to believe the charming, articulate person rather than the victim.

1180
01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:02.039
People would call hand and be like, why are you

1181
01:05:02.199 --> 01:05:05.239
being so unfair to Rowan? And from everything you know

1182
01:05:05.320 --> 01:05:07.760
about the custody agreements, that she went out of her

1183
01:05:07.840 --> 01:05:10.480
way to make sure that you know, he was facetiming

1184
01:05:10.519 --> 01:05:10.960
the kids.

1185
01:05:11.199 --> 01:05:13.599
Yeah, yeah, I mean I think it just goes back

1186
01:05:13.599 --> 01:05:16.760
to him being such a manipulative person like he was.

1187
01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:19.800
It seems like he was very good at being able

1188
01:05:19.840 --> 01:05:22.880
to convince people of whatever he wanted to convince them of.

1189
01:05:23.000 --> 01:05:26.280
And it sounds like with the coercive control that he

1190
01:05:26.639 --> 01:05:30.119
primarily kept it, you know, between him and his and

1191
01:05:30.280 --> 01:05:33.239
Hannah and the kids, and so people from the outside

1192
01:05:33.280 --> 01:05:35.519
just couldn't see it. And I think people just don't

1193
01:05:35.559 --> 01:05:39.400
want to believe something right, you know, someone You're like, oh,

1194
01:05:39.440 --> 01:05:41.239
that can't this guy can't be a bad guy. It

1195
01:05:41.239 --> 01:05:42.320
seems fine, you know.

1196
01:05:42.719 --> 01:05:44.559
And it's a lesson to all of us. Just because

1197
01:05:44.599 --> 01:05:47.880
someone is good to you doesn't mean they're always good. Yeah,

1198
01:05:48.000 --> 01:05:51.440
people have different experiences with different people, especially you know,

1199
01:05:51.480 --> 01:05:53.880
in an interpersonal relationship.

1200
01:05:54.199 --> 01:05:54.400
Yep.

1201
01:05:55.119 --> 01:05:57.679
Before we go, I wanted to mention that one of

1202
01:05:57.719 --> 01:06:01.719
my main sources was a podcast called Hannah's Story. Again

1203
01:06:01.760 --> 01:06:04.440
in show notes, I have linked it both on Apple

1204
01:06:04.679 --> 01:06:09.320
and Spotify, but it was a really powerful, heartbreaking podcast.

1205
01:06:09.400 --> 01:06:12.280
But I also read like a ton of articles from

1206
01:06:12.480 --> 01:06:16.920
different newspapers in Australia. Before we move on, I just

1207
01:06:16.960 --> 01:06:19.719
wanted to say one last thing. I just can't imagine

1208
01:06:19.719 --> 01:06:30.760
how proud Hannah would be of her parents. Absolutely, we've

1209
01:06:30.800 --> 01:06:34.599
talked about the Casey case some dead dog transition.

1210
01:06:35.000 --> 01:06:36.239
It always comes to mind.

1211
01:06:37.199 --> 01:06:39.119
Gosh, this one is a hard one because we always

1212
01:06:39.159 --> 01:06:41.039
want to leave you guys with, like, you know, a

1213
01:06:41.079 --> 01:06:44.920
little positivity, a little bit of something to make you laugh.

1214
01:06:45.000 --> 01:06:47.480
But should you explain the Casey Case thing again, because

1215
01:06:47.519 --> 01:06:49.760
that was probably three years ago we talked about that,

1216
01:06:50.400 --> 01:06:53.679
you explain it? What was kind of a viral clip

1217
01:06:53.800 --> 01:06:57.000
from way back in the day that Casey case was

1218
01:06:57.159 --> 01:06:59.880
they were talking about something, reading a letter about it.

1219
01:07:00.480 --> 01:07:04.079
Child who had a dog that died, and then he

1220
01:07:04.119 --> 01:07:07.480
didn't have any way to transition into something like more upbeat,

1221
01:07:07.599 --> 01:07:11.079
upbeaten positive, And he was really irked at his producers,

1222
01:07:11.159 --> 01:07:12.639
like he was yelling at them, like, how am I

1223
01:07:12.679 --> 01:07:14.559
supposed to move on for this dead dog? Yet?

1224
01:07:14.599 --> 01:07:17.360
I believe in the episode where we originally talked about it,

1225
01:07:17.400 --> 01:07:19.400
you played the clip at the end of the episode, yeah,

1226
01:07:19.400 --> 01:07:21.480
which was kind of funny. But that's how I feel today,

1227
01:07:21.519 --> 01:07:24.880
because this was a devastating case to work on, and

1228
01:07:24.920 --> 01:07:27.320
a lot of people say, oh, I can't listen to

1229
01:07:27.559 --> 01:07:30.079
the stories when you talk about, you know, children that

1230
01:07:30.159 --> 01:07:33.719
are killed. But I think it's important to tell their stories. Aliyah,

1231
01:07:33.840 --> 01:07:37.760
Leanna and Trey. They need to be remembered. Yeah, they

1232
01:07:37.800 --> 01:07:43.840
were just such adorable, sweet little children. But anyway's let's

1233
01:07:43.840 --> 01:07:47.480
move on. This time of year, I get sentimental reflecting

1234
01:07:47.519 --> 01:07:50.599
on we've been doing this for four years alms. Yeah, yeah,

1235
01:07:50.599 --> 01:07:53.679
in October it'll be our four year anniversary. But we

1236
01:07:53.760 --> 01:07:57.719
started recording in the summer four years ago, so I think, Wow,

1237
01:07:57.840 --> 01:08:00.079
I still can't believe that we've been doing this for

1238
01:08:00.079 --> 01:08:00.920
war years.

1239
01:08:00.920 --> 01:08:03.159
It really is hard to believe. It doesn't seem like it.

1240
01:08:03.400 --> 01:08:05.440
Yeah, and I still feel like a newbie. I think

1241
01:08:05.440 --> 01:08:08.639
that's the thing that surprises me the most, because I'm

1242
01:08:08.719 --> 01:08:11.880
still you know, tongue tight and figuring things out. But

1243
01:08:12.000 --> 01:08:13.639
I don't know, can you believe that four years?

1244
01:08:14.000 --> 01:08:16.319
I really am shocked. Sometimes I think back and I

1245
01:08:16.359 --> 01:08:18.479
can't remember how many years it's been. I'm like, wait,

1246
01:08:18.520 --> 01:08:22.119
it's been two years. No, it's been almost four. Like, yeah,

1247
01:08:22.159 --> 01:08:23.359
it just is really shocking to me.

1248
01:08:23.399 --> 01:08:25.520
It's still a lot of stories to be told.

1249
01:08:25.600 --> 01:08:28.239
Yeah, yeah, we'll never run out of stories, which is

1250
01:08:28.279 --> 01:08:32.359
really sad and tragic. But it's been such an awesome journey.

1251
01:08:33.680 --> 01:08:36.359
It's just been so much more than I think we

1252
01:08:36.439 --> 01:08:38.399
ever thought it would be at the beginning. You know,

1253
01:08:38.520 --> 01:08:41.039
all the people that listen to us, people that you know,

1254
01:08:41.079 --> 01:08:43.159
reach out to us from around the world. It's just

1255
01:08:43.399 --> 01:08:45.199
really heartwarming and humbling.

1256
01:08:45.319 --> 01:08:47.520
If you would have told me that people in over

1257
01:08:47.560 --> 01:08:50.279
one hundred countries would be listening to us, I would

1258
01:08:50.279 --> 01:08:50.840
be shocked.

1259
01:08:50.920 --> 01:08:51.640
Yeah.

1260
01:08:51.720 --> 01:08:54.119
Well, before we go, I have a little this or

1261
01:08:54.199 --> 01:08:56.079
that quiz for you. We haven't done a quiz in

1262
01:08:56.159 --> 01:08:58.279
a while, and this is just like a quick you know,

1263
01:08:58.439 --> 01:09:00.359
you're going to choose a or you know.

1264
01:09:00.960 --> 01:09:02.520
I think I can do that, Okay.

1265
01:09:02.840 --> 01:09:09.880
Tacos or burritos, burritos, tacos, washing dishes or vacuuming, washing dishes.

1266
01:09:10.079 --> 01:09:14.600
Same roller coaster or Ferriss wheel ferrest wheel roller coaster.

1267
01:09:14.920 --> 01:09:17.600
Watermelon or strawberries strawberries.

1268
01:09:17.720 --> 01:09:20.319
That's a tough one. I really love both of them.

1269
01:09:20.359 --> 01:09:23.359
If they're good, Yeah, that's the thing I'm going to go.

1270
01:09:23.920 --> 01:09:25.039
I'll go with strawberries too.

1271
01:09:25.079 --> 01:09:26.680
I think it's been like twelve years since I've had

1272
01:09:26.680 --> 01:09:30.960
a good watermelon. Really yeah, night or morning, morning, night.

1273
01:09:32.439 --> 01:09:34.479
This Loo's gonna be really hard for you. Is it

1274
01:09:35.479 --> 01:09:37.600
Ariana Grande or Taylor Swift?

1275
01:09:38.760 --> 01:09:41.000
Probably Taylor Swift, Taylor Swift.

1276
01:09:41.319 --> 01:09:43.119
Golden Retriever or German Shepherd.

1277
01:09:44.000 --> 01:09:45.920
I'm probably more of a Golden retriever type.

1278
01:09:46.159 --> 01:09:49.279
Absolutely golden. I mean German shepherds are all they're a little.

1279
01:09:49.399 --> 01:09:51.760
I like German shepherds too. I love all dogs, but

1280
01:09:51.880 --> 01:09:54.640
Golden retrievers are just there's something special about them.

1281
01:09:54.960 --> 01:09:56.800
I have not gone through these at all. I'm just

1282
01:09:56.920 --> 01:09:59.039
and this again will be LinkedIn show notes. If you

1283
01:09:59.079 --> 01:10:00.960
want to do this with a friend or a partner.

1284
01:10:01.159 --> 01:10:04.479
Bagel or croissant, bagel. I should have said croissant.

1285
01:10:04.760 --> 01:10:07.319
I do like croissants too, but that's.

1286
01:10:07.119 --> 01:10:11.319
That's Sophie's choice right there. I'm gonna say bagel typically

1287
01:10:11.600 --> 01:10:17.159
Halloween or Christmas, probably Christmas, yeah, Christmas. Green tea or

1288
01:10:17.239 --> 01:10:18.079
Cami meal tea?

1289
01:10:18.600 --> 01:10:23.680
Uh, green tea or not. I drink green tea every one.

1290
01:10:24.239 --> 01:10:25.760
If I make you, no, I'll.

1291
01:10:25.680 --> 01:10:28.720
Drink green tea occasionally. But it's pretty rare. Bell or

1292
01:10:28.920 --> 01:10:33.520
Rapunzel Bell or Rapunzel Boy. That is a really tough

1293
01:10:33.520 --> 01:10:36.520
one for me. I love them both. There, I man

1294
01:10:36.640 --> 01:10:41.319
go Bell. I just feel like Rapunzel is more like me.

1295
01:10:42.600 --> 01:10:45.000
It's more sentimental because that's probably the story I heard

1296
01:10:45.000 --> 01:10:46.000
when I was young.

1297
01:10:46.960 --> 01:10:47.960
Much Beauty and the Beast.

1298
01:10:48.159 --> 01:10:50.680
No, I don't really recall hearing that story until later.

1299
01:10:50.920 --> 01:10:55.119
Hummingbirds are robins. Humming birds because we were stocked by

1300
01:10:55.159 --> 01:10:58.960
a robin for three years. Rain or Snow. I'll go

1301
01:10:59.039 --> 01:11:00.000
with rain snow.

1302
01:11:00.039 --> 01:11:00.880
Oh. Oh.

1303
01:11:00.960 --> 01:11:04.479
I didn't answer humming Oh. I would say yeah, Thor

1304
01:11:04.760 --> 01:11:07.479
or Loki. I don't even know these. I don't even

1305
01:11:07.600 --> 01:11:07.960
really know.

1306
01:11:08.159 --> 01:11:10.439
I thought Loki was a bad guy, but I don't

1307
01:11:10.439 --> 01:11:12.520
really know. I think Thor is a good guy, So

1308
01:11:12.520 --> 01:11:13.520
I'm gonna go with Thor.

1309
01:11:14.039 --> 01:11:16.840
But I don't really know either mint chocolate chip or

1310
01:11:16.920 --> 01:11:18.359
cookie dough ice cream.

1311
01:11:18.479 --> 01:11:21.680
Cookie dough, although I do like mint chocolate chip once

1312
01:11:21.680 --> 01:11:22.079
in a while.

1313
01:11:22.239 --> 01:11:24.800
Ncas anything, if she had any business being in an

1314
01:11:24.840 --> 01:11:28.560
ice cream movie night or game night, movie night, Red

1315
01:11:28.560 --> 01:11:29.520
apples or green apples?

1316
01:11:29.560 --> 01:11:30.319
You didn't answer that one?

1317
01:11:30.359 --> 01:11:31.359
Oh? Sorry, which one? Oh?

1318
01:11:31.560 --> 01:11:34.079
Movie night or game night? A man like them both.

1319
01:11:35.439 --> 01:11:38.479
This or that, though I would probably go movie. I

1320
01:11:38.520 --> 01:11:42.760
guess green apples are red apples, Red Chandler bing or.

1321
01:11:42.920 --> 01:11:44.600
You didn't answer it again, you gotta answer.

1322
01:11:44.920 --> 01:11:48.439
I'm sorry, Red, I mean not red red red, but

1323
01:11:48.600 --> 01:11:52.279
like you know, medium red Chandler being or Joey Tribiani.

1324
01:11:52.680 --> 01:11:54.920
I don't really have a strong opinion on that. I

1325
01:11:55.039 --> 01:11:59.359
never really watched Friends, but I guess I'll go with Joey's.

1326
01:11:59.479 --> 01:12:02.479
That's another hard one. I probably go Chandler. All right,

1327
01:12:02.720 --> 01:12:03.520
I think that's enough.

1328
01:12:04.079 --> 01:12:07.000
Okay, so we've learned a lot about each other.

1329
01:12:08.000 --> 01:12:10.359
Probably half yeah, probably half yeah.

1330
01:12:10.520 --> 01:12:12.359
Oh I have one more, okay.

1331
01:12:12.039 --> 01:12:14.079
Toy story or spider Man.

1332
01:12:15.239 --> 01:12:16.479
Probably toy story.

1333
01:12:16.720 --> 01:12:18.680
I'm going to make you go see one of those

1334
01:12:18.760 --> 01:12:19.039
with me.

1335
01:12:19.279 --> 01:12:22.119
Oh really, if you had asked me, you know, thirty

1336
01:12:22.199 --> 01:12:24.039
years ago, I would have said Spider Man, but probably

1337
01:12:24.079 --> 01:12:24.640
Toy Story.

1338
01:12:25.119 --> 01:12:27.520
Okay, I think I want to see Spider Man because

1339
01:12:27.520 --> 01:12:30.119
I love Zanana and Tom Holland.

1340
01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:32.600
I am just so over superhero movies. But if you

1341
01:12:32.640 --> 01:12:36.039
want to go, can watch the Superhero movie when our

1342
01:12:36.159 --> 01:12:38.760
son was into superhero movies. So it's been a long time.

1343
01:12:38.800 --> 01:12:40.199
It's been a long time since we've had to go.

1344
01:12:40.319 --> 01:12:42.479
That doesn't mean I want to go see them again.

1345
01:12:42.960 --> 01:12:46.159
But I do owe you because I did wrong you

1346
01:12:46.239 --> 01:12:47.880
by putting a blooper at the end of the last

1347
01:12:47.920 --> 01:12:50.760
episode without telling you. So I will go to see

1348
01:12:50.760 --> 01:12:51.680
Spider Man with you.

1349
01:12:51.840 --> 01:12:56.399
Oh that's your retent, Yes, that's my I think it's

1350
01:12:56.439 --> 01:12:58.840
going to be a little more than that. Really, I

1351
01:12:58.920 --> 01:13:02.199
forgive I have forgiven you. I have moved on, all right,

1352
01:13:02.720 --> 01:13:06.720
And speaking of moving on, it's time we end this episode.

1353
01:13:06.880 --> 01:13:08.439
Wow, that was a great segue.

1354
01:13:08.600 --> 01:13:11.119
Well, thank you so much for listening and your support

1355
01:13:11.399 --> 01:13:14.199
and your friendship. If you're in Australia or the United

1356
01:13:14.239 --> 01:13:19.359
States or South Africa or wherever you're listening, we appreciate you.

1357
01:13:19.399 --> 01:13:22.960
Please rate, review, follow, and subscribe. Find us on the

1358
01:13:22.960 --> 01:13:27.119
internet at Lovemarykills dot com or on social.

1359
01:13:26.800 --> 01:13:31.399
Media or on YouTube or on YouTube, and please consider

1360
01:13:31.439 --> 01:13:35.640
supporting us on Patreon. Go to patreon dot com Slash Love,

1361
01:13:35.720 --> 01:13:38.479
Mary Kill. For five dollars a month, you got early

1362
01:13:38.720 --> 01:13:42.000
ad free access and a monthly bonus.

1363
01:13:41.640 --> 01:13:43.319
Episode until next time.

1364
01:13:43.560 --> 01:13:44.520
Don't care a husband?

1365
01:13:44.600 --> 01:13:47.600
And don't you kill your husband? And don't kill your wife.

1366
01:14:02.960 --> 01:14:21.199
To back

1367
01:14:22.800 --> 01:14:24.000
The co