Hannah Clarke and Rowan Baxter

Tina: Hi, I'm Tina

Rich: and I'm Rich.

Tina: If there's one thing we've learned in over 20 years of marriage,

Rich: it's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife,

Tina: and some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

Rich: Welcome to Love, Marry, Kill.

Tina: Hello, Richard.

Rich: Hello, Tina.

Tina: How are you?

Rich: I'm good. How are you? I'm good. Although on

Tina: one day, I was not so good. Do you want to tell everyone why?

Rich: No.

Tina: No? You were in trouble. You don't get in trouble very often, almost never.

Rich: I was in big trouble.

Tina: Well, I mean, I was a little mad at you. Do you want to talk about it?

Rich: Well, apparently you do, so we can talk about it. I just want

Tina: a public apology, that's all.

Rich: Well, sometimes I put bloopers

Tina: at

Rich: the very end of our episode after our closing music comes on. And how

Tina: often, what percentage of the time are they of you? Not that

Rich: often, but that's only because I'm not very funny. When I do a blooper, I'm just, I make a mistake. I feel

Tina: like it's that you like to humiliate your

Rich: wife. That's not it. I just like to have some fun and find something funny, like a little Easter egg that people might find at the end. But I did not inform you that I was putting a blooper of you at the end of the episode. And a couple of

Tina: listeners were like, that was funny, or oh boy, I felt your pain. And I was like, what are you talking about? And then I realized that I had been deceived by my beloved.

Rich: So I apologize for putting a blooper in of you without your permission. It will never happen again.

Tina: I appreciate it. I don't want to beat a dead horse.

Rich: Well, it is the fact that you're bringing this up. I bet a lot of our listeners don't even know that there are occasional bloopers after the, because it's way at the end.

Tina: I just felt like it was, the joke was on me because I didn't know you were doing that. And sometimes when I make bloopers, which is happens a lot because it is hard to talk and do the podcast and I struggle sometimes, but I feel like in that situation, I might've been being extra silly just to make you laugh and not everyone else. And I can say, highway, you'd both. I can say highway bone, but sometimes I was struggling with the hyoid. That was the situation. Anyway, let's move on.

Rich: Okay.

Tina: Do you have anything that you want to air out publicly? Any grievances with me?

Rich: I currently have no grievances with you. I have grievances maybe with other people, but not you. You're good for now.

Tina: Well, speaking of grievances, I saw an Instagram earlier today that you can now send red flags to people in the mail. I think it's anonymous. Like if you're having a problem with someone or you're dating someone, you can send them a red flag. That's

Rich: a really good idea.

Tina: Yeah. Do you have anyone you would send a red flag to?

Rich: No, as I said, I really have no grievances with you.

Tina: Very easy going. How about the tigers? Would you send one to like the tigers?

Rich: Well, I'm a little angry at the tigers at times, but it's not like a red flag, like a warning sign. I think it sounds like this is more for.

Tina: I have a long list, a long list of people that I would send them to, but no one that I want to shame publicly right now.

Rich: Not right now. Maybe later though.

Tina: Probably not, but I think you know who is on list. So I realized, I know the first day of summer was just like three days ago, but I'm already fantasizing about the fall, fall weather and football season. Yeah.

Rich: Well, it's been a very cool summer so far though. It feels a little like fall to me.

Tina: It's been amazing here in Michigan, but I'm still, a lot of us really just love fall. You love

Rich: football so much. You really want. I love

Tina: football season. I like, you know, the excitement around game day. I like the snacks and yeah. Yeah. So do you think the lions are going to have a good year this year?

Rich: Of course they are. I don't even know why you would question whether they're going to have a good year. They're going to win the Superbowl.

Tina: Oh, okay. Did you put a bet on them last year?

Rich: No, I have in the past, but I don't think I did last year.

Tina: I just realized that I totally screwed up and I meant to start the episode by how you going mate?

Rich: Oh, we're going to

Tina: Australia today. It's been a while. It

Rich: has been a while.

Tina: Our Australian listeners are amazing. I looked the other day. We have listeners all around the world, which still shocks me, but Australia makes up like 18 % of our audience. That's huge. It really is. It's awesome. This case is one that people have been asking for, for a very long time, but I did make you an Aussie snack.

Rich: Oh, excellent.

Tina: I made you Lamington's, I think that's how you say it. It's a little bit of cake and then you put it in chocolate icing and then you cover it with coconut. Okay. I thought that looked like coconut, which

Rich: makes me a little wary, but I am certainly going to give it a try.

Tina: Okay. What did you think?

Rich: I thought they were really good. I definitely, you were kind enough to make one without coconut. I did try one with coconut and then one without. Definitely prefer it without the coconut. That's just me, but I, yeah, they're really good, really yummy.

Tina: I liked them, but I didn't love them, but I think it's on me because I overcooked the cake a little bit.

Rich: Oh, okay.

Tina: Did you think the cake was a little dry? Not

Rich: especially because I had a bite with quite a bit of chocolate on it, so that probably made up for the dryness of the cake, but no, I thought they were really good.

Tina: Well, I'm so glad that you like them. The recipe will be in show notes if anyone wants to give them a try at home. And if you're from Australia, I would be curious to hear variations on the Lamington. The recipe that I got said that you could cut them in half and put jam in the middle with a little bit of whipped cream, which I was going to do that, but then I decided to take nap and stuff.

Rich: You got to have your priorities.

Tina: The story of Hannah Clark broke Australia's heart. I know this is true because no story has been requested more. And after researching this case, I know why. Hannah and her children were beautiful and made the world a better place. They are sorely missed by those who knew them and even those who didn't. This is a tragic, heartbreaking story that does involve the death of children, domestic abuse and suicide. So please listen with care. So often when we think of domestic abuse, we picture the breakdown of a relationship and the steady escalation of physical violence. It begins with a shove, a slap or a punch, followed by an emphatic apology that it will never happen again. Then later come bruises, black eyes, broken bones, a pattern that becomes increasingly violent over time, until it sometimes turns deadly. For years, Hannah Clark lived under a system of control carefully constructed by her husband, Rowan Baxter. He dictated what she wore, who she spent time with, how she communicated with friends and family, and even how she spent holidays or birthdays. To outsiders, Rowan appeared to be a devoted father and loving husband, but behind closed doors, Hannah slowly lost her agency, her confidence, and her freedom. Hannah's life was dictated by Rowan's moods, demands, and unrealistic expectations. Hannah's closest friends and family noticed the changes in her. Police were called, but Rowan's behavior wasn't viewed as dangerous and often dismissed as the troubles of a struggling marriage. Because there were no bruises or other obvious signs of physical violence, the danger he posed seemed minimal, and when law enforcement eventually was called, officers appeared to side with Rowan when he portrayed Hannah as controlling, irrational, or overly emotional. Rowan Baxter was a master of manipulation and coercive control. No one thought he was capable of the unspeakable violence that he would unleash on his family on February 19, 2020. After Hannah finally found the strength to leave the marriage, she and her children had 11 weeks of calm, allowing her nervous system to reset. She thought she'd done the right thing by leaving. She finally felt safe and secure living with her loving parents, but Rowan could not leave her to live in peace. When Hannah broke free from his control with a resolve to start anew, it gnawed at him. This is a story about coercive control, a form of abuse that isn't physical, but can be just as damaging, and in some cases, just as deadly. Throughout this episode, we'll talk about what coercive control is, how it works, and why so many people struggle to recognize it. Most of all, this is a story about the warning signs that were missed, the systems that failed to understand the danger, and the devastating consequences that followed. This is the story of Hannah Clark and her three children, Alia, Leanna, and Trey, in one of the most devastating acts of domestic violence in Australian history. Hannah Ashley Clark was born to Susanna and Lloyd on September 8, 1988 in Brisbane. Brisbane is located on the east coast of Australia, serving as the capital and largest city of the state of Queensland. The population is about three million. It is known for its warm, sunny climate and laid -back lifestyle. Brisbane will host the 2032 Summer Olympics. Should we go?

Rich: We should.

Tina: Hannah's brother and best friend, Nathaniel, or Nat, was born two years later. From an early age, Hannah was bright and funny. She had a bubbly personality with an abundance of energy and a love of performance and competition that led her parents to steer her towards sports, particularly trampoline gymnastics. Hannah was confident and very talented in the sport, representing Queensland and trampoline when she was 16 years old, meddling in international competitions. In addition to excelling in sports, Hannah was chosen as her school's captain, a leadership role similar to student body president in the U .S., and one typically reserved for students held in high regard by both peers and teachers. After graduation, Hannah became a coach and gymnastics teacher. CrossFit became her sport in 2008. She didn't just participate in the sport for fitness, she also competed in competitions where she excelled. Her happy place was the gym, and that's how she met her husband, Rowan, a former professional rugby player. Hannah's best friend, Nikki, told Melissa Downes of the Hannah Story podcast that she was relentlessly positive and saw the best in everyone. While that is a wonderful personality trait, sometimes this was to Hannah's detriment. Rowan Baxter was born on May 9, 1977 in Torunga, a coastal city on New Zealand's North Island. He had an unusually traumatic childhood due to his father being sent to prison after sexually abusing his sisters. His cousin told the New Zealand Herald that he was a cruel, angry child. But Rowan, too, was a gifted athlete. Sports were his escape from his home life. He played rugby with the New Zealand Warriors professionally. He was known to get into violent brawls on the field and later quit after he wasn't getting enough playing time. He later acknowledged the criticism in a newspaper interview and defended his involvement in several on -field brawls saying, quote, That's the way I play. I don't regret it. That's who I am. With his rugby days behind him, Rowan worked as a trainer. He met his first wife, who we're calling Penny. She has chosen not to be involved in any of this, so I just made up a name for her and for calling her Penny. He met Penny when he was 18 and she was 16. After they were married, they welcomed a son, Isaiah. He was an abusive and controlling husband. When Penny decided to leave, when their son was two, Rowan stalked her and left notes on her car begging her to come back. He threatened her by telling her that he had a hosepipe in the boot of his car and had planned how to end it for all three of them. The threat was enough to make her go back to him. Later, Hannah confided in a friend that Rowan had told her that he had once plotted the deaths of his first wife and son before he even met her. His marriage, along with his rugby days and a road rage incident in which he almost beat a man to death, paid Rowan in a disturbing light as a man with a hair trigger and a long history of violent thoughts and abusive behavior.

Rich: In 2007, Rowan, his wife and young son relocated to Queensland. Soon after, he met Hannah Clark at the gym where his son was enrolled in a gymnastics class that Hannah taught at the PCYC. She was just 20 years old and still lived home with her parents. Rowan was 31. The PCYC, or Police Citizens Youth Club, is a non -profit organization that partners with police and local communities to provide sports, recreation, leadership programs, and youth development activities. PCYC clubs were originally created to build positive relationships between young people and police officers, particularly to help steer at -risk youth away from crime and provide constructive activities similar to the YMCA in the US. Hannah's mother Sue told Melissa Downs of the Hannah's Story podcast that she often talked about the hot dad from the gym. When Rowan got a job working at the same PCYC as a boxing instructor, the two became closer when Hannah took his class. Eventually, they started an affair despite Rowan being married with a young son. He lied to Hannah and told her that the marriage was over. He only continued to live with his wife so he could see his son daily. When Penny found out about the affair, she wasn't happy and told Rowan he needed to move out of their home, but he wasn't able to afford a place of his own so he remained living with Penny and their son. But after four months of dating Hannah, he moved in with a friend. Hannah had been planning to go on a cruise with a girlfriend before she started dating Rowan. During the trip, he called her often and demanded to know what she was doing at all times. When Penny and Rowan officially separated, she was happy to be rid of him, although custody of their son was contentious and led to fights over visitation. On one occasion, he kicked at the front door until she let him in and handed over their son. Hannah's parents initially weren't happy about her and Rowan's relationship, but over time he won them over. Hannah's brother, Nat, however, was another story. He dug his heels in. He didn't like Rowan, considered him too old for his sister, and thought he was a con man. His hesitancy to accept the relationship caused him and Hannah to become estranged for a couple of years after an incident with Nat's car. He traveled for work and frequently allowed Rowan to use his car when he was out of town. It was a new vehicle and Rowan quickly put 30 ,000 kilometers on it, often returning it empty. When Nat told Rowan he could no longer use the car, Rowan was furious and took his anger out on Hannah, which happened often. Rowan reserved his vitriol and anger for Hannah, never wanting to appear unpleasant to her friends or family. Six months into the relationship, Hannah discovered that she was pregnant. She wanted to follow through with the pregnancy, but Rowan did not think she was old enough to become a mother and convinced her to have an abortion. Soon after, Hannah and Rowan moved in together. While she worked at an athletic shoe store, he worked in pharmaceutical sales.

Tina: Are you seeing some red flags in this relationship? So

Rich: many red flags and so many familiar red flags from other cases we've covered.

Tina: It's you know, I think early on they, they did have happy times and he wasn't always controlling, but there were, you know, definitely some signs

Rich: of calling her when she's on a cruise, like wanting to know where she is all the time. That's definitely a, you know, a warning sign. Hannah was 14 weeks pregnant on her wedding day in October, 2012. She said she felt like a princess and called it the happiest day of her life. Sue and Lloyd paid Looking back, the Clarks remembered an incident that gave them pause. Rowan was upset that guests had not been more generous with their cash gifts because he wanted to use the money to fund a honeymoon to the United States.

Tina: So this is about four years into their relationship.

Rich: Okay. After the wedding, friends and family saw Hannah's sunny disposition darken. She had always been exceptionally close to her family, but her bright, easygoing personality faded. Sue said that Rowan's attitude changed almost immediately after the marriage. It was like flicking a switch, she recalled. The couple's first daughter, Alia, was born on April 10th, 2013. Leanna, their second daughter, was born on March 19th, 2015, and Trey, their son, was born on December 4th, 2016. Hannah's children meant everything to her. They gave her so much joy and fulfillment. Hannah passed her love of onto her children. Their happy place was the beach. The children were all healthy, vibrant, and thriving. After he and Hannah started their family, Rowan refused to pay child support to Penny for their son.

Tina: I'm not sure how involved Rowan was in Isaiah's life, his first son, but he still saw him from time to time. But for some reason, he just didn't think he had to pay child support anymore. But his work was never consistent, and he always had a hard time making ends meet.

Rich: In 2015, Hannah and Rowan opened a gym called Integrate with roughly $60 ,000 in startup funding from friends and Hannah's parents. On paper, it seemed like a natural fit. The couple had met at the gym, and fitness was a huge part of both of their lives. But it takes more than being a fitness fanatic to operate a profitable gym. The stress of owning and operating a new business with the demands of a young family proved to be too much for them. Integrate struggled from the beginning, relocating twice as it fought to stay afloat. Rowan was not a strong businessman, and some members found him aggressive and off -putting. He also struggled to manage both the gym's finances and the family's finances. As the debts mounted, Rowan and Hannah leaned heavily on Sue and Lloyd for help. The Clarks regularly stepped in to cover mortgage payments, gym rent, and other expenses. The financial support became so extensive that Sue and Lloyd eventually re -mortgaged their own home to keep the family afloat. By the end of 2019, Integrate had closed its doors, leaving debts of approximately $75 ,000 behind.

Tina: I have seen a lot of interviews with Sue and Lloyd, Hannah's parents, and they are just amazing, beautiful, kind people. And they would have done anything for Hannah and even Rowan to help them, and they certainly did financially.

Rich: Yeah, they do sound like great parents. We'll be back after a break.

Tina: Before we go any further, it's important to understand a term that comes up repeatedly in this case, coercive control. Are you familiar with that term?

Rich: I have heard it, but I don't really know what it means.

Tina: Coercive control is a pattern of abusive behavior designed to dominate another person and strip away their independence and sense of self. Unlike physical abuse, it doesn't leave visible injuries. Instead, the perpetrator operates through intimidation, manipulation, isolation, surveillance, humiliation, and the constant erosion of a person's autonomy. An abusive partner may dictate what someone wears, who they spend money, where they go, or who they can speak to. They may monitor phone calls and social media accounts, demand constant updates about their whereabouts, or use threats, guilt, and emotional abuse to maintain control. Each individual act may seem insignificant on its own, but taken together they create an environment in which the victim feels trapped. One of the reasons coercive control can be so difficult to recognize is that it develops gradually. The restrictions are introduced one at a time and often framed as acts of love, concern, or protection. Over time, the victim may begin to question their own judgment and accept behavior they once would have found unacceptable. Experts often describe coercive control as a hostage -taking situation without physical chains. The goal is not necessarily physical harm. The goal is power and control. While coercive control does not always involve physical violence, research has shown that it is one of the strongest predictors of serious domestic violence and domestic homicide. In many cases, the abuse becomes most dangerous when the victim attempts to leave and the abuser realizes that they are losing control. As we tell Hannah's story, many of Rowan's actions may not initially sound criminal or even unusual, but when viewed together they reveal a pattern of coercive control that would ultimately have devastating consequences. Rowan was a skilled manipulator who carefully cultivated the image of a devoted husband and father, making it difficult for outsiders to see what was happening behind closed doors. Friends and strangers often saw an attentive hands -on dad. In public, Rowan would change diapers and dough it on the children, reinforcing the impression that he was involved in family life. Behind closed doors, however, Hannah said he rarely helped with such tasks and left the day -to -day burden of caring for the children to her. Over time, Rowan imposed increasingly strict rules on Hannah's appearance. He forbade her from wearing shorts, miniskirts, dresses, bikinis, and even the color pink, though he occasionally made exceptions when it suited him. He also forbade her from having her own social media accounts insisting they a single social media profile. He criticized everything about his wife, her appearance, the way she parented, the cleanliness of their house, not caring that she had three young children to take care of. He called her fat and lazy, and he also referred to other female gym members as pigs.

Rich: I'm thinking back to another case we did recently, and it seems like men like this, they seem to have a problem with all women.

Tina: Is

Rich: that true, do you think?

Tina: Absolutely, yeah.

Rich: I'm trying to understand this concept of coercive control and trying to understand what motivates a person, and I really have a hard time understanding it. What's your goal? It's just about control, but to what end? I just don't get it.

Tina: Well, I'm glad that you don't get it because you're not a narcissist and people like Rowan only care about their own needs and controlling others to suit their needs. They can't see anyone else's wants and needs and desires. It's all about them.

Rich: It's just not a path to happiness. It's a path to misery. Well, people like that are never

Tina: going to be happy. And the fact that he degraded his wife, not that her appearance should matter, but beautiful, young, fit, lovely in every way, and he just couldn't see her for who she was. After Hannah would finish what she believed were private phone conversations, Rowan would confront her about details that he should not have known. It became increasingly clear that he was somehow listening in. When questioned how he knew so much, Rowan claimed that six -year -old Aliyah had secretly recorded Hannah's conversations on her phone and sent them to him. No one found that explanation believable, although Aliyah, I mean, her grandparents told a lot of stories. She was just so smart and sassy, and she was just a really cool -spirited child.

Rich: But six years old, you're not recording phone conversations at that age.

Tina: So why didn't Hannah leave sooner? It's a question that often follows cases like this one, but coercive control is rarely obvious even to the person experiencing it. It works gradually eroding confidence, independence, and a person's sense of reality. Over time, the target may begin to question their own judgment, wonder if they're overreacting, or feel as if they're going crazy. And when victims do leave, the danger doesn't end. In many cases, it escalates.

Rich: Yeah, I think it's that gradual ramping up that just leaves you, like when something like that happens so slowly over time, you just don't know it when you're in it, right?

Tina: I was in a relationship before you, and I realized that he did some of these tactics to me, and it did make me feel like I was crazy or overreacting all the time.

Rich: He

Tina: was like, well, everything's okay. If I questioned anything, yeah.

Rich: And did it seem like it gradually ramped up through the course of the relationship, or was it just sort of a few red flags here and there?

Tina: Probably. I mean, it was so long ago, I don't really remember, but I did identify to some of these tactics. After Trey was born, Rowan began forcing Hannah to have sex every night. She was physically exhausted from caring for three young children and emotionally drained by the constant tension in her marriage, but Rowan was indifferent to her needs. If Hannah resisted to show what Rowan deemed the appropriate level of enthusiasm, he would become angry and punish her with days of silence. Over time, sex became another tool of control. Hannah later disclosed to a police officer that Rowan would force himself on her, leaving her feeling powerless in her own home and fearful of the consequences if she refused. As Hannah's 30th birthday approached, Rowan began organizing a surprise celebration for her at the gym. But after learning that Hannah would have preferred a quiet dinner with family and close friends, he became angry and scrapped the plans altogether. He had collected money from gym members and Hannah's parents to purchase a necklace engraved with the children's names, but the birthday itself ended up being organized by Sue and Lloyd. Friends invited Hannah out to bars to continue the celebration, but Rowan made it clear that he wanted to go home. Rather than argue, Hannah agreed. By then, those closest to her had noticed a pattern and was often easier to give Rowan what he wanted than deal with a fallout when she didn't. Much like she had when she was a child and teenager, Hannah still loved to compete, perform, and exercise. When she discovered CrossFit, it was the perfect outlet for her to maintain her fitness goals and meet new friends. In November 2018, Hannah was preparing to compete as part of a team in a CrossFit competition. Rowan had failed to qualify for the individual event and was angry that Hannah would be competing without him. When she returned from an early training session on the day of the competition, Rowan and the children were gone. He hadn't told her where they were going and his phone was switched off. Hannah became frantic. She called and texted repeatedly with no response. Fearing something had happened, she asked her brother Nat to search local beaches and parks, but there was no sign of Rowan and the children. Hannah considered skipping the competition, but her parents encouraged her to attend rather than give Rowan what he wanted. What Hannah didn't know was that Rowan had deliberately left a phone behind to secretly record her conversations while he was gone. Later, when he finally contacted her, he wasn't apologetic. Instead, he was furious. He berated Hannah for competing without him and for involving her family in the search for him and the children. The confrontation continued when Hannah returned home to pick up six -year -old Aliyah, whom she had promised could watch the CrossFit finals. Rowan was still seething. He told Hannah that Aliyah wasn't going anywhere, but this time Hannah refused to back down. As she headed for the door with her daughter, Rowan grabbed her arm and held on, leaving a bruise. It was one of the few times his abuse left a visible mark. For Hannah, it was a turning point. She asked her mother if she and the children could live with them while she sorted out her personal finances. Sue and Lloyd were thrilled at the prospect and asked Hannah to hold on a little longer while they prepared their home. After

Rich: one night, Hannah awoke to Rowan with her phone in his hand, scrolling through her call messages. She had suspected that he had been doing this for months because he always seemed to know more about her private conversations than he was privy to. When she confronted him, he angrily threw the phone at the wall, cracking the screen. Hannah had been plotting her separation from Rowan for months. On December 5th, Hannah's friend Nikki encouraged her to move out of her house that day while Rowan was away. Hannah agreed. She got a new phone number, but kept the old phone number to communicate with Rowan.

Tina: The next

Rich: day, Hannah went to the police station and met with senior constable Kristen Kent. She encouraged Hannah to file a domestic violence protection order, or DVO, against Rowan, but Hannah was worried that that would set him over the edge. Later that day, Rowan insisted on seeing Hannah and convinced her and the children to return home for the night, which she did, but then left town for a few days to stay with her brother, then returned to her parents' house. The following few days were a confusing time for everyone involved, with Rowan begging Hannah to return to their home. She and the children spent time with him, but she would then return to her parents' house. Rowan had a few sessions with a therapist and claimed to Hannah and friends that he was working on himself. Hannah confided to a friend at CrossFit, I'm scared that Rowan will hurt the kids to hurt me. She also told her mother that she needed to write a will to dictate who would care for the children if Rowan killed her and went to jail. She was genuinely scared for her life. Days before Christmas, Rowan had the children for a scheduled visit and was supposed to return them to the Clark family so they could leave a quick holiday on the Sunshine Coast, but he refused to return them. Hannah and her family were left wondering if he intended to keep the children from them altogether. Eventually, Rowan relented, but only after returning the children hours later than agreed. The Clarks allowed him to spend Christmas Day with them after he broke down in tears to Lloyd, saddened at the prospect of spending the day without them.

Tina: And she was like, I did not want him there on Christmas, but Lloyd and Hannah were both empathetic to him and let him spend the day.

Rich: It's just terrifying to me the thought of him even having the children some of the time when she was obviously so scared that he was going to harm her or them to get back at her. I can't imagine just how scary it must have been to let the children go with him

Tina: for

Rich: Christmas brought another disappointment. Rowan gave the children gift cards as presents, but when they later tried to use them, they discovered there was no money on them.

Tina: So the kids were six, four, and three, and he gave them gift cards, but empty gift cards.

Rich: Yeah, awful. For Hannah and her family, incidents like these reinforced a troubling pattern. Rowan seemed determined to maintain control and create conflict even when it came the expense of his own children. On Boxing Day, the day after Christmas, Rowan met Hannah and the children at a skate park so they could play with their new skateboards. When they were set to leave, he asked Hannah to take the children overnight. When she refused, he grabbed Leanna and ran, put her in the front seat of his car with no child safety seat and sped off. He called out to Hannah, this is your fault. All of the children were extremely upset by the incident. Hannah called the police, but because she had never filed a DVO and there was no official court record of a separation or custody agreement, there was nothing they could do. For three days, Hannah didn't know where Leanna was. Rowan brought her to a friend's house in New South Wales. The police were able to track Rowan down and talk with him calmly, asking him to return Leanna to her mother. On December 28th, Constable Kristen Kent told Hannah that she intended to apply for a DVO on her behalf. Hannah agreed with the decision and provided an affidavit. Kent believed Rowan had placed Leanna in a dangerous situation and issued a police protection notice, preventing him from coming within 100 meters of Hannah, the children, or their home until the matter could be heard in court. She then tried to contact Rowan to serve the notice, but was unable to reach him. A police protection notice, or PPN, is issued by police in an emergency situation while a DVO is granted by the court. The next morning, police arrived to serve Rowan with the PPN. The previous evening, he had returned to his home with Leanna. He was very upset about the conditions of the PPN and cried openly to the police, telling them how unfair the whole situation was. They told him that Hannah had not initiated the PPN, but the police had. The officers then brought Leanna back to Hannah. This was actually a pivotal point in the case that would later be scrutinized. Rowan could have been arrested and taken into custody, but the officers decided not to escalate the situation any further and instead gave him a notice to appear in court in March. I can't imagine how terrifying that must have been for Hannah not knowing where her daughter was for how many days? Three days. It's so awful.

Tina: Leanna was only four years old, but she had this sweetness about her that she was able to calm her father down more than anyone else. Like she could tell when he was angry and she just had this soothing effect on him, which no child should ever be placed in that situation, especially at the age of four.

Rich: Yeah, but it just tells something about her personality.

Tina: Like she knew that she could calm him down. Yeah, it's heartbreaking.

Rich: In the weeks after Hannah left, Rowan called dozens of friends, acquaintances, and former gym members, portraying himself as the victim and Hannah as an unreasonable mother who was keeping him from his children. During many of the calls, he broke down in tears, winning sympathy from those around him. Over and over, he persuaded people that he was Some even contacted Hannah to tell her that Rowan was a good father and that she was wrong to restrict his access to the children. He would settle for nothing less than 50 % custody. But Rowan wasn't telling them the whole story. His friends worried about Rowan's seemingly fragile mental state and feared that he might take his own life. But Hannah had been more than fair. Even after Rowan's increasingly erratic behavior and his decision to take Leanna without permission, she continued to facilitate contact between him and the children whenever she believed it was safe to do so. Aliyah, who was feisty, refused to see her father after he abducted Leanna. On January 8th, Rowan appeared in court and contested the domestic violence order. The parties also negotiated interim parenting arrangements, allowing Rowan to continue seeing children while the matter worked its way through the court system. The case was adjourned until February 5th, 2020. In the meantime, a temporary protection order prohibited Rowan from committing domestic violence, exposing the children to domestic violence, coming within 100 meters of Hannah's home, or contacting Hannah except in relation to the children. The court also ordered Rowan to pay $360 per month in child support, but he was working very little during this tumultuous time. He was seeing a therapist who he was also able to manipulate into thinking he was mentally healthy. They even wrote a letter to the court on his behalf saying there was no reason that he shouldn't be able to have custody of his children.

Tina: So this is how good and manipulative he was. He was even able to manipulate this therapist.

Rich: Yeah. And like you said earlier, he, you know, didn't show any signs of, he tried not to show red flags to anybody other than Hannah. So a lot of people outside just couldn't see it. On January 14th, Rowan emailed Hannah's lawyers complaining that he had not seen his children in 24 hours. Later, the tone of the email was described as patronizing, aggressive, and bullying. On that same day, police went to Rowan's house to talk to him about domestic violence and to offer resources for support. Three days later, Hannah's lawyers advised Rowan that she had arranged mediation for the following week in an effort to resolve parenting arrangements. Despite everything that had happened, Hannah continued to facilitate FaceTime calls between Rowan and the children while the parties worked toward a formal agreement. That same day, she applied to alter the temporary protection order. On January 21st, Rowan's lawyers contacted Hannah's lawyers requesting overnight visitation with the children.

Tina: So after the incident when he took Liana, Hannah had said no more overnight visits.

Rich: Yeah. Who can blame her? Rowan was also contesting the domestic violence order, claiming Hannah had only applied for it to gain an advantage in the custody dispute. The following day, his lawyer advised police that several witnesses would support that Hannah agreed to let the children stay with Rowan for the weekend of January 24th. When the visit was over, Rowan posted a message on Facebook thanking friends for their support and declaring that he would not rest until he had the children 50 % of the time. But the children were becoming increasingly reluctant to spend time with their father. He was quick -tempered with them and often peppered them with questions about Hannah, wanting to know who she was talking to and whether she was dating anyone.

Tina: Rowan was the kind of father who was even competitive with his small children. If they were doing a foot race, he would have to win the foot race. And again, the kids were six, four, and three.

Rich: Wow, that's really just sick. On January 30th, Rowan had the children for another overnight visit. During the evening, Aliyah FaceTimed Hannah in tears. She said her father was driving them on a highway she didn't recognize and was being mean to her. The following morning, after Rowan dropped her at school, Aliyah asked the mother of a friend if she could borrow a phone to call her mother.

Tina: Aliyah, again, is just so whip smart that she knows that she needs to tell Hannah everything that's going on. Yeah, that's super impressive. The children really loved her and they were so bonded with her.

Rich: Yeah, sounds like it. Later that day, Hannah approached Rowan's car while he was dropping off tray and noticed explicit photographs of herself inside the vehicle. Horrified, she reached in and grabbed them. Rowan responded by grabbing her wrist with enough force to cause injury. Sue Clark called the police and Hannah later sought medical treatment. A doctor diagnosed her with a sprained wrist and fitted her with a splint. Police spoke with Rowan about the photographs, reminding him that possessing them was a breach of the domestic violence order. Rowan claimed the images had accidentally fallen out of a file he was keeping for the ongoing court proceedings. He refused to discuss the matter further, telling officers it would be dealt with in court. The following day, Rowan was fired from his job as a personal trainer. He later claimed it was because Hannah had joined the gym and other members threatened to cancel their memberships if he remained employed there. However, his attendance had been spotty, making that a more likely explanation. At the same time, Rowan was bombarding his lawyer with emails, phone calls, and text messages. The attorney, who was representing him on a pro bono basis, struggled to keep up with the constant stream of communication. Rowan appeared increasingly agitated and consumed by the separation. Friends described him as being in a frantic state and some became genuinely concerned that he might take his own life. We'll be back after a break.

Tina: This is the hard part. It had been 11 weeks or 77 days since Hannah and the children left Rowan. Hannah thought they were safe. She had finally done what she'd wanted to do for so long, but had been too frightened to attempt. She had left her abuser. Hannah, Aliyah, Leanna, and Trey had so much life to look forward to. Hannah had even set her sights on a new career as a police officer. Sue Clark later said that Hannah was as light as a feather during those weeks. She and the children were happy and Sue and Lloyd treasured being part of Hannah and their grandchildren's daily lives. They remained grateful for that time together and the memories they made. Not long before her death, Hannah told her friend, I'm so glad I got out when I did. I'm safe. Sadly for Hannah and for so many other women, the most dangerous time in an abusive relationship is after you leave. February 19th, 2020 began as a normal Wednesday for the Clark family. It was the height of summer in Queensland and temperatures would climb to 34 degrees Celsius or 93 degrees Fahrenheit. Sue and Lloyd left for work while Hannah got herself and the children ready for school. At 7 a .m. Rowan bought a coffee from a shop near the Clark home. He mentioned to the barista that he was, quote, fighting with the ex -misses today. She nodded dismissively. Rowan took his coffee outside and spent the next hour watching people pass by while scrolling through his phone, frequently checking Google Maps. Two days earlier, he had purchased zip ties, a small Jerry can, and methylated spirits from a hardware store. He later filled the can with 4 .6 liters of petrol and bought three Kinder bars. A Jerry can is what we would call a gas can, and petrol, of course, is gas. After he knew Sue had left for work on the morning of February 19th, Rowan drove to the Clark home and waited. At 8 17 a .m., Hannah and the children came outside and began loading into her silver Kia. Rowan approached the vehicle, carrying the green Jerry can, and climbed into the passenger seat. He splashed petrol over Hannah and the children, careful not to get any on himself. Hannah drove off, churning onto Raven Street, where she spotted a man washing his car. With her window down, she screamed, Help! Help! He's covered us in petrol. Call the police. He's going to kill me. She pulled the vehicle over and tried to escape, but Rowan held her down. Hannah had one hand on the door handle and was about to free herself when Rowan pulled a lighter from his pocket. He flicked it until it ignited and dropped it inside the car before climbing out. The Kia erupted into flames almost instantly. At the last moment, Hannah managed to break free, but the flames engulfed her. Witnesses could feel the intense heat as the fire consumed the vehicle. Four loud explosions echoed through the neighborhood. The man washing his car immediately rushed to help. He sprayed Hannah with a hose, extinguishing the flames on her body, and tried to keep her cool. He suffered burns to his face and arms, but could not get close enough to the vehicle to see the children trapped inside. Rowan was also on fire, and the man briefly turned his attention to him. The street descended into chaos as neighbors rushed to help. It took a moment before anyone realized that children were inside the vehicle. One man broke his arm attempting to assist, while others suffered burns from the extreme heat of the fire. It was simply too intense for anyone to reach the children. A woman took over the hose and continued cooling Hannah's burns. Though gravely injured, Hannah remained conscious and repeatedly asked her babies if they were safe. Another neighbor emerged with a fire extinguisher and tried desperately to contain the flames. It sounded like a bomb went off. It was so loud. I felt shock waves. The car was engulfed in flames almost instantly. The homeowner ran inside and told his daughter to call 000. It was 826 a .m. First responders rushed to the scene. Despite suffering burns to 80 % of his body, Rowan was still alive. He returned to the vehicle, retrieved a knife from the floor, and stabbed himself twice in the abdomen and once in the chest. He went into cardiac arrest shortly after and died at 914 a .m. before he could be transported to the hospital. Rowan Charles Baxter was 42 years old. No drugs or alcohol were found in his system. Despite suffering burns to 97 % of her body, with only the soles of her feet untouched, Hannah was able to tell police what had happened and identify Rowan as the person responsible. Paramedics struggled to establish IV access because of the severity of her burns, so they administered morphine into her thigh muscle to ease the pain. First responders understood that her injuries were likely unsurvivable and focused on keeping her as comfortable as possible. Hannah said, quote, I hope he survives and rots in jail for the rest of his life. She was later intubated at the scene and to Royal Brisbane and Women's Hospital. Hannah survived long enough for her family to say goodbye. She died at 540 p .m. at 31 years of age. Aliyah, Leanna, and Trey died almost immediately.

Rich: So it sounds like Hannah was conscious enough and aware enough that she probably knew that the children didn't make it.

Tina: I don't think she knew. I think she was clinging to hope. And when she got to the hospital, I believe a doctor said to her, you need to worry about yourself now and not the children. So I think it was important that she clung to the hope that they were still alive.

Rich: I hope so.

Tina: The people of Queensland were devastated by the murders of Hannah and her children. In the days that followed, thousands gathered at vigils across the state. Hannah's family were deeply moved by the outpouring of support and attended a public vigil in Brisbane. Story Bridge, Victoria Bridge, and City Hall were illuminated in pink, Hannah's favorite color, to honor her, Aliyah, Leanna, and Trey. After the murders, previously unseen body camera footage of Rowan's interactions with police came to light. The footage had been recorded after he took Leanna across state lines without permission. During the encounter, as young Leanna clung to her father, Rowan complained that women could make false allegations of domestic violence against their partners. One officer appeared to agree, Yeah, you're right. The video sparked outrage across Australia, with many viewing it as evidence of a broader culture in which allegations of domestic abuse were too often minimized or dismissed. Perhaps most troubling, internal police documents later revealed that investigators questioned the veracity and motive of Hannah's domestic violence allegations after the murders. Critics argued that the scrutiny reflected a lingering skepticism toward Hannah's claims, despite the extensive evidence that had emerged about Rowan's abusive and controlling behavior. Deputy State Coroner Jane Bentley became emotional as she delivered her findings at the conclusion of a nine -day inquest. 34 witnesses had testified, hundreds of documents had been reviewed, and the court had spent years examining the events that led to the deaths of Hannah, Aliyah, Leanna, and Trey. In the end, Bentley reached a sobering conclusion. It was unlikely that police, domestic violence services, friends, or family could have prevented the murders once Rowan Baxter had decided he was going to carry them out. The evidence painted a troubling picture of Rowan. Friends, family members, colleagues, and former gym members described a man who was controlling, intensely competitive, and unwilling to accept rejection. He always needed to be the alpha male. He hated being told no. If someone outperformed him, he often accused them of cheating. At the gym, he pushed clients to exhaustion, and even ejected gym members who he felt weren't working hard enough. He frequently exaggerated, manipulated situations to cast himself as the victim, and demanded constant admiration from those around him. Jane Bentley rejected the notion that Rowan's actions were the result of mental illness. Rowan Baxter was not mentally ill. He was a master of manipulation. After Hannah left him, he realized she had obtained support, and he could no longer control her. He received funds and support from a number of friends and family members who believed his lies that Hannah was treating him badly, and that he was being victimized by her. Baxter made numerous appointments for counseling, and with doctors, all of these were designed to assist him to contest the domestic violence order application, and influence the family court process in his favor. He did not have any wish to obtain counseling or address his problems. He manipulated doctors and psychologists. When Baxter concluded that he had totally lost control over Hannah, he killed her and her three children. Baxter understood the extent of the atrocities he had committed. He did not want to live with the public denunciation and punishment he would receive. End quote. In the inquest, Bentley noted that domestic violence incidents accounted for as much as half of Queensland police workload, and concluded that more specialized training was needed. She recommended a five -day domestic violence training program for specialist officers, mandatory annual domestic violence training for all Queensland police, and a year -long trial of a specialist domestic violence police station that would bring together police, support workers, child safety, housing, health, and legal services under one roof. So this inquest was kind of a big deal in Queensland, and at the end of it she said that they did everything that they could. Yeah. But a lot of people publicly had issue, took issue with this because they said that, you know, there were warning signs that, you know, Rowan should have been arrested, and you know, the police should have intervened more aggressively.

Rich: Yeah, it sure seems like it, and I guess it points to one of the issues with coercive control, is that because there isn't always physical violence associated with it, it's probably easy for the police to kind of overlook it and say, oh it's not really anything we need to be concerned about, but I could see that training could help with that, and help them recognize maybe some of those signs.

Tina: I was surprised when they said that 50 percent of what the police do is control domestic violence. Like, of course that makes sense, but it just kind of shocked me. It's kind of

Rich: mind -boggling though, yeah.

Tina: And we do count on our police here too to do everything, and often they are not given the training. A lot of it comes down to, you know, like understanding the psychology of a human being. Right. And that's a lot to ask, yeah. And definitely more training will help.

Rich: Yeah. At the close of the inquest, Lloyd Clark delivered a victim impact statement on behalf of Hannah and the children. Speaking in the voice of his grandchildren, he asked, Speaking for Hannah, he asked, in peace. Why did you always have to have the last manipulative, vindictive word? Then Lloyd spoke for himself and Sue. We have spent two years asking why, he said. Why would a parent do that to his children? Why would a husband do that to his wife? And why didn't we see it coming? Sue Clark also addressed the court, describing a grief that touched every part of her family's lives. What we have suffered has cost us so much, in every sense of the word. Emotionally, physically, financially, our grief is all -consuming. Not one day has passed without tears. There is no rest, no escape. I can't bring myself to pack up their toys. We will never get to see them graduate or marry or have children of their own. Our hearts break that they were never given the chance to grow and excel and be happy. A better understanding of coercive control won't change what we have suffered. It won't bring back the love that has disappeared from our lives, but we do hope that a community that stands up against coercive control will stop others suffering the same fate. For Sue and Lloyd Clark, the questions of why will never fully be answered, but they have dedicated their lives to ensuring that Hannah, Aliyah, Leanna, and Trey are remembered and that other families do not endure the same tragedy. In 2021, Sue and Lloyd Clark founded Small Steps for Hannah, a charity dedicated to raising awareness about coercive control and supporting victims of domestic and family violence. The name was inspired by the heartbreaking detail that the soles of Hannah's feet were the only part of her body untouched by the fire that washed over her. An anonymous donor later provided land for the and accommodation to women and children escaping domestic violence. The Clarks' tireless advocacy has helped change the conversation around coercive control in Queensland and across Australia. In January 2022, they were named Queensland Australians of the Year in recognition of their work. A park in Camp Hill, the suburb where Hannah grew up, was also renamed Hannah's Place in her memory. Earlier this year, Sue and Lloyd announced they would be stepping away from the day -to -day leadership of Small Steps for Hannah. After years of advocacy, fundraising, public speaking, and supporting other families affected by domestic violence, they said it was time to focus on themselves and their family. While they may be stepping back from the organization they built, their impact on domestic violence awareness in Australia will continue to be felt for years to come. While Hannah's story shocked Australia, domestic violence remains a global crisis. According to the United Nations, an average of 140 women and girls are killed every day by an intimate partner or family member, amounting to more than 50 ,000 deaths each year. In Australia, roughly one woman is killed every week by a current or former partner. In the United States, the number is even higher.

Tina: Despite major reforms inspired by the murders of Hannah Clark and her children, significant gaps remain in Queensland's response to domestic violence. In 2025, a Guardian Australia investigation raised new questions about the police response in the months leading up to the murders. Central to the reporting were more than 200 pages of text messages exchanged between Hannah and senior constable Kirsten Kent, the specialist domestic violence officer assigned to her case. The messages revealed that Hannah had disclosed allegations of stalking, non -fatal strangulation, phone hacking, and fears that Rowan would kill her. In one message she wrote, I know, given the opportunity, he wouldn't hesitate to kill me. I can see the look in his eyes. According to the investigation, some of those disclosures were never formally recorded and police systems are investigated as potential criminal offenses, potentially affecting the level of risk assigned to Hannah's case. The article also revealed Rowan had become fixated on Hannah's relationship with officer Kent. After the murders, investigators found a note in which Rowan complained about their friendship, writing, you have a social attachment with her. A whistleblower alleged that police failed to adequately examine the significance of that relationship or how Rowan's resentment of it may have increased the danger that Hannah faced. The investigation also highlighted body camera footage showing officers advising Rowan on how to challenge a protective order and discussing domestic violence allegations in a way critics viewed as inappropriate. While the coroner had previously concluded that police generally acted appropriately, the reporting raised fresh questions about whether the full extent of the danger Hannah faced was ever recognized and whether missed opportunities may have contributed to the tragedy. Prevention of domestic and family violence minister D SBS News Australia that the shocking deaths of the Clark family resulted in more people seeking help to stop the cycle of abuse. Quote, I've spoken with many people who work in the DFV sector and everyone has been absolutely devastated by the deaths of Hannah and her little babies, but they've also seen in the last few days that we've had an incredible surge in calls from people asking for help and importantly from people asking to help to stop being violent. So after the deaths of Hannah and the children, men were coming forward saying I need help stopping being a domestic abuser. And something I forgot to mention was that Rowan, I don't know if he mentioned or not, but a few days before the murders, he reached out for help too, but his calls were never answered. A life insurance policy Rowan had taken out combined with donations from thousands of Australians moved by the left in a state worth more than $3 .5 million. Sue and Lloyd Clark inherited the funds, but the estate soon became the subject of a legal dispute. Rowan's son from his first marriage, Isaiah Baxter, filed a claim seeking a share of the estate. In court documents, he described the deaths of his father Hannah and his half siblings as incredibly traumatizing and said that he expected to live with the effects for the rest of his life. Isaiah argued that he was entitled to a portion of proceeds while also describing a lifetime of estrangement from his father. He alleged that Rowan had been abusive and controlling towards him and his mother before later directing that behavior towards Hannah. Despite the lawsuit, Isaiah wrote warmly of Hannah and the children. He said he loved them deeply and described Sue and Lloyd Clark as his second grandparents. I think that the Clarks must have settled this privately because I didn't read about it anymore. Hannah Ashley Clark was only 31 years old. She was a devoted mother who loved her children fiercely and worked tirelessly to build a safe and happy life for them. She was a talented athlete, a loyal friend, and at the time of her death, she was excited about her future. Aliyah Anne, 6, was bright, loved to read, and took her role as a big sister seriously. She was sassy, intuitive, and fiercely protective of her mother. Leona Grace, 4, had recently started preschool and was known for her sweet, loving, and empathetic nature. She gave legendary hugs. Even at such a young age, she would try to comfort her father when he was in a bad mood. Trey Rowan, 3, was just beginning to discover the world around him. He was energetic, deeply attached to his mother, and those who knew him believed that he had the makings of a talented athlete like his parents. Together, the children adored their mother. They loved beach trips, visits to the and spending time with family. Most of all, they loved being together. Rest in peace, Hannah, Aliyah, Leona, and Trey. That was tough.

Rich: That was tough.

Tina: We already have GPS technology that can alert authorities when someone enters a restricted area. Should high -risk domestic violence offenders be fitted with ankle monitors that notify both police and victims if they come from, they come within a certain distance.

Rich: Seems like a great idea. I mean, I always think that when these domestic violence orders get enacted that, you know, if somebody wants to go and attack and kill someone, they're going to do it. Stopping them. Yeah, exactly. So having they're

Tina: willing to take their own life.

Rich: Yeah, for sure. So having something like that seems like it would at least help give a notification, give a warning.

Tina: And we have a registry for sex offenders. Why can't we have, you know, a registry for domestic violence abusers too? Yeah, it would make sense. So if you're dating a new man, you can, you know, check to see if he has any history of domestic violence.

Rich: Yeah, it's a great idea.

Tina: Why protect abusers?

Rich: Yeah, absolutely.

Tina: I link this in show notes, but I listened to a podcast called I Catched Killers with Gary Jubilin, where Sue and Lloyd Clark talked with him. And they had some ideas, like some of those were ideas that they came up with. But they also talked about educating young people, especially young boys and teaching boys that it's okay to have emotions. And I think that would be, you know, a really good start for future generations. Because, you know, when you grew up, you were always told to like suck it up, right? Right. And, you know, if you showed too many emotions, you were labeled as, you know, sensitive or a wuss or whatever. So, yeah, I think protecting future generations, I think educating people that there aren't male and female emotions. There's just emotion.

Rich: Yeah, I think it's a great idea. And I think so many things can go back to education and just helping, you know, kids earlier in their life to be able to deal with their emotions and be able to, you know, react in a healthy way rather than turning it on someone else.

Tina: Deputy State Coroner Jane Bentley concluded that Rowan Baxter was not mentally ill, but rather a master manipulator. Do you agree with that assessment?

Rich: I don't feel qualified to answer that really. I don't, you know, have a degree in psychology or psychiatry.

Tina: I do, but I don't feel that I'm qualified. I mean, all

Rich: I know is he was a horrible, horrible man. I mean,

Tina: I think the thing that bothered me was the one therapist that he was seeing wrote a letter on his behalf to the court. Yeah. I think that was pretty,

Rich: I mean, he seems like he was so manipulative, like really able to convince people that, you know, whatever he wanted to convince them, he was able to do.

Tina: And he'd only had a handful of sessions with that person. So maybe it should be, you know, you have to have many more sessions before you can write a letter. Yeah. Rowan convinced a surprising number of people that he was the victim. Why do you think people are often willing to believe the charming articulate person rather than the victim? Because people would call Han and be like, why are you being so unfair to Rowan? And from everything you know about the custody agreements that she went out of her way to make sure that, you know, he was FaceTiming the kids.

Rich: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it just goes back to being such a manipulative person. Like he was, it seems like he was very good at being able to convince people of whatever he wanted to convince them of. And it sounds like with the coercive control that he primarily kept it, you know, between him and his and Hannah and the kids. And so people from the outside just couldn't see it. And I think people just don't want to believe something, right? If you know someone, you're like, oh, that can't, this guy can't be a bad guy. It seems fine, you know.

Tina: And it's a lesson to all of us, just because someone is good to you doesn't mean they're always good. Yeah. People have different experiences with different people, especially, you know, in an interpersonal relationship. Right.

Rich: Yep.

Tina: Before we go, I wanted to mention that one of my main sources was a podcast called Hannah's Story. Again, in show notes, I have linked it, linked it both on Apple and Spotify, but it was a really powerful, heartbreaking podcast. But I also read like a ton of articles from different newspapers in Australia. Before we move on, I just wanted to say one last thing. I just can't imagine how proud Hannah would be of her parents.

Rich: Absolutely.

Tina: We've talked about the Casey, case some dead dog transition. It always

Rich: comes to mind.

Tina: But gosh, this one is a hard one because we always want to leave you guys with like, you know, a little positivity, a little bit of something to make you laugh.

Rich: But should you explain the Casey, case something again? Because that was probably three years ago. We talked about that.

Tina: You explain it

Rich: was kind of a viral clip from way back in the day that Casey, case, um, was they were talking about something, reading a letter about a child who had a dog that died. And then he didn't have any way to transition into something like more upbeat, upbeat and positive. And he was really irked at his producers. He was yelling at them like, how am I supposed to move on from this dead dog?

Tina: Yeah, I believe in the episode where we originally talked about it. You played the clip at the end of the episode. Yeah, which was kind of funny, but that's how I feel today because this was a devastating case to work on. And a lot of people say, oh, I can't listen to the stories when you talk about children that are killed. But I think it's important to tell their stories. Aliyah, Liana and Trey, they, they need to be remembered. They were just such adorable, sweet little children. But anyway, let's, let's move on. This time of year, I get sentimental reflecting on we've been doing this for four years. Yeah. Yeah. In October, it'll be our four year anniversary, but we started recording in the summer four years ago. So I think, wow, I still can't believe that we've been doing this for four years. It

Rich: really is hard to believe. It doesn't seem like it.

Tina: Yeah. And I still feel like a newbie. I think that's the thing that surprises me the most because I'm still, you know, tongue tight and figuring things out. But I don't know. Can you believe that four years? I,

Rich: I really am shocked. Sometimes I think back and I can't remember how many years it's been. I'm like, wait, has it been two years? No, it's been almost four. Like, yeah, it just is really shocking to me.

Tina: There's still a lot of stories to be told. There

Rich: are, yeah, we'll never run out of stories, which is really sad and tragic, but it's been such an awesome journey. We've, it's just been so much more than I think we ever thought. It would be at the beginning, you know, all the people that listen to us, people that, you know, reach out to us from around the world. It's just really heartwarming and humbling.

Tina: If you would have told me that people in over 100 countries would be listening to us, I would be shocked.

Rich: Yeah.

Tina: Well, before we go, I have a little this or that quiz for you. We haven't done a quiz in a while, and this is just like a quick, you know, you're going to choose A or B, you know. Okay, I think I can do that. Okay. Tacos or burritos?

Rich: Burritos.

Tina: Tacos. Washing dishes or vacuuming?

Rich: Washing

Tina: dishes. Same. Roller coaster or ferris wheel?

Rich: Ferris wheel.

Tina: Roller coaster. Watermelon or strawberries? Strawberries. That's

Rich: a tough one. I really love both of them if they're good.

Tina: Yeah, that's the thing.

Rich: I'm going to go, I'll go with strawberries too. I

Tina: think it's been like 12 years since I've had a good watermelon. Really? Yeah. Night or morning?

Rich: Morning.

Tina: Night. This one's going to be really hard for you. Is it? Ariana Grande or Taylor Swift?

Rich: Probably Taylor Swift.

Tina: Taylor Swift. Golden retriever or German shepherd?

Rich: I'm probably more of a golden retriever type guy.

Tina: Golden, I mean, German shepherds are a little... I like German shepherds too. I love

Rich: all dogs, but golden retrievers are just, there's something special about them.

Tina: I have not gone through these at all. I'm just, and this again will be linked in show notes if you want to do this with a friend or a partner. Bagel or croissant?

Rich: Bagel.

Tina: I should have said croissant.

Rich: I do like croissants too.

Tina: That's Sophie's choice right there. I'm going to say bagel typically. Halloween or Christmas?

Rich: Probably Christmas.

Tina: Yeah, Christmas. Green tea or chamomile tea?

Rich: Green tea.

Tina: We're not tea people.

Rich: I drink green tea every once in a while. Only if

Tina: I make you.

Rich: No, I'll drink green tea occasionally, but it's pretty rare.

Tina: Belle or Rapunzel?

Rich: Belle or Rapunzel. Boy, that is a really tough one for me. I love them both. I'm going to go Belle. I'll go Rapunzel. She was a big reader too. I just feel like Rapunzel is more like, to me, more sentimental because that's probably the story I heard when I was young. You had

Tina: much beauty in the beast?

Rich: No, I don't really recall hearing that story until later.

Tina: Hummingbirds or robins?

Rich: Hummingbirds.

Tina: Because we were stalked by a robin for three years. Yeah. Rain or snow?

Rich: I'll go with rain.

Tina: Snow. Oh, I didn't answer humming. Oh, I would say hummingbirds. Thor or Loki? I don't even know these.

Rich: I don't even really know. I thought Loki was a bad guy, but I don't really know. I think Thor is a good guy, so I'm going to go with Thor, but I don't really know either.

Tina: Mint chocolate chip or cookie dough ice cream? Cookie dough, although I

Rich: do like mint chocolate chip once in a while. I don't think mint

Tina: has any business being in an ice cream. Movie night or game night?

Rich: Movie night.

Tina: Red apples or green apples? You didn't answer that one. Oh, sorry, which one?

Rich: Oh. Movie night or game night?

Tina: I might like them both.

Rich: This or that, though.

Tina: I would probably go movie, I guess. Green apples or red apples? Red. Chandler, Bing, or Joey Tribbiani? Wait, you didn't answer it again. You got to answer these two. Oh, wait, I'm sorry. Red. I mean, not red, red, red, but like, you know, medium red. Chandler, Bing, or Joey Tribbiani?

Rich: I

Tina: don't

Rich: really have a strong opinion on that. I never really watched Friends, but I guess I'll go with Joey.

Tina: That's another hard one. I'd probably go Chandler. All right, I think that's enough. Okay, so we've learned a lot about each other. Oh, probably at least half. Yeah, probably half. Yeah. Oh, I have one more. Okay. Toy Story or Spider -Man?

Rich: Probably Toy Story.

Tina: I'm going to make you go see one of those with me. Oh, really? If you

Rich: had asked me, you know, 30 years ago, I would have said Spider -Man, but probably Toy Story.

Tina: Okay, I think I want to see Spider -Man. And I love Zandaya and Tom Holland.

Rich: I am just so over superhero movies, but if you want to go. When's the last time you watched

Tina: a superhero movie?

Rich: When our son was into superhero movies. So it's been a long time. It's been

Tina: a long time since we've had to go. It

Rich: doesn't mean I want to go see them again, but I do owe you because I did wrong you by putting a blooper at the end of the last episode without telling you. So I will go to see Spider -Man with you.

Tina: Oh, that's your repentance? Yes, that's my, I think it's going to be a little more than that. Really? I have forgiven you. I have moved on.

Rich: All right.

Tina: And speaking of moving on, it's time we end this episode.

Rich: Wow, that was a great segue.

Tina: Well, thank you so much for listening and your support and your friendship. If you're in Australia or the United States or South Africa or wherever you're listening, we appreciate you.

Rich: Please rate, review, follow and subscribe. Find us on the internet at lovemarykills .com or on social media.

Tina: Or on YouTube.

Rich: Or on YouTube.

Tina: And please consider supporting us on Patreon. Go to patreon .com slash love Miracle. For $5 a month, you get early ad free access and a monthly bonus episode.

Rich: Until next time,

Tina: don't kill your husband and don't kill your husband. Don't kill your

Rich: wife.