Kathleen and Michael Peterson - Part 1

0:00 Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, some days you'll feel like killing your husband, and some days you'll feel like killing your wife. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Tina, Hey Rich. How are you? I'm great? How are you? I'm doing good? Happy twenty twenty four, Happy twenty twenty four. Although you know there is a statute of limitations on Happy New Year, Larry David says three days is what's acceptable. Well, I don't subscribe to Larry David's policies. So I'm going to say Happy New Year to our friends and listeners and our cats. Fair enough, fair enough.

0:49 I have something for you, do you. Yeah? I know you don't like our theme song at all, and this is all I wouldn't say at all. I like the idea of it, and I was actually going to ask you. Our listeners they think we should change it, and if you are willing to change it, if enough people agree that we should open the door, slam that door open. Yeah. Yeah. So it's one of the few things we disagree about on our podcast. So yeah, if we have feedback, if people like it or don't, like it, but I have an idea for a new theme song. I want. I'm so excited hear I didn't. I did not know this. I don't here you go right right? Yes, what do you think? I'm sorry, my eyes are so rolled up far in my head I can't see straight. So good heavens, I like it. I don't think we can afford the royalties.

1:38 I'm that little ditty there. This is for people who don't know what this is. This is Hail to the Victors, which is the University of Michigan fight song, which super they've been doing a fabulous job, even though they might might have been cheating a little bit. No, no cheating, but they are going to be playing in the championship game Monday. Here's what I don't like about sports. I mean, I like sports. I like sports a lot. I appreciate the effort and the people work so hard. It's sound like such a mom but that the fact at the end of the season they've had literally had a perfect season, that you are going to be sad if they lose, and they are going to be sad if they lose, to be sad, but I would, yes, you are, I will be sad. In the moment, yes, I will be, but then I will look back afterwards and I will be like, yeah, it was a good season. I was actually really excited because I thought you were going to play me some cool new theme song and we were going to be able to because I'm pretty sure no one other than you or maybe actually some other people will love I love our theme song, but I am open to changing it if people want, so we'll see. Wow, okay, and then you would probably have to find something else, and that would be the challenge.

2:47 Well, how's your resolution going. I'm not sure what your resolution was. I'm pretty sure it was to be healthier, which it has been since you know, the last five whole days, and I'm doing great. Yeah, how about you. I didn't really have a resolution, so you were just going to stay remain awesome and so far, so far, so well. I think I have in the last year made some changes, like and I feel like I have been healthier and I've been making better changes. And it wasn't like a resolution. It was just like I'm gonna, you know, do X Y and Z and I've been trying to Yeah, a great job. Well, I do have a snack. I'm ravenous. I'm actually not. I'm excited to see because we had talked about this last night and you were like, I don't know what I have, but I know that you are very creative. Yeah, go ahead. I knew you were going to do this. I should have written it down on a piece of paper.

3:39 Wow. I good thing. I'm a good thing. I'm hungry. I have in front of me three baby three very thin baby carrots, and three pieces of cucumber. I know we're all trying to cut back a little bit of the New Year and everything. No, I have, I have actual snacks. I went to the gas station this morning. I know you did because you brought me a there's a nice big episoda in front of me. I brought you the child size child. Yeah. Yeah, So no, I have four snacks just in case. Well, I hope this will probably be a two parts, not going to be four parts, is it okay? So I'm having a little PTSD because when we recorded Scott Peterson, we really thought it was going to be two and it ended up being three and we were in here for six hours. It was it was a long day. It was great. I think it turned out really, you know, we're proud of the episode, but it was crazy. Prepare yourself for another long day before. I don't think it'll be I just wanted to be safe just in case. I think it'll be two parts, maybe three, but pick a number between one and four and I'm going to pick four or two or four. Four. You got the bobos, P, B and J. Great. That was like I thought it was gonna be, like a little it looks like a crustable package on behind, all right, sweet baked peanut butter oat crust with this This sounds delicious? Well and again because I have the crustal it's has a it's heavy, it would like break a window. Why don't we take a break and try it? All right?

5:10 Sounds good? What do you think? Not much? What do you think it was? All right? I think if you're on the go and you want a little healthy tree, I like the like the cookie. It's kind of like a more like a cookie than bread, kind of like an oat. How dare you call that a cookie? I mean, but it was kind of like a thick granola bar. Maybe maybe more like a granola bar. But yeah, if you're on the go, maybe it would be an Okay, snack. I have bought Bobo's. I don't know if they're they're muffin bites or something for the kids. But yeah, it's fine. Can you pick another door? I hope we don't have to pick four doors.

5:54 We'll see. Okay, Well, today is going to be a continuation of the Peterson project. You're this great idea you have. Oh my gosh, why you're blaming me for it? I think it's it's not the worst idea ever. It's just odd that three of the worst people that I've ever heard of I'll share the same last name. I have started the Drew Peterson and when we're done, we'll have to, you know, quantify who is who is the worst? Yeah, but Drew is, in my opinion, Drew is probably the worst. Michael is probably the least likable. Yeah, Scott. I mean Scott's really horrible. So that tells you something about the other two. Yeah, for sure. Well, I think with Michael we're going to talk about this, but I think there's definitely more of a question of his guilt or not than there is probably for the other two. Yeah, and we'll get it. We'll get into all that. Obviously. I found a little mini bombshell last night after you've gone to bed, and what do you mean because you've said something to me, But I was like, just about the sleep, but I said, don't, I can't right now, Okay tell me. So it probably won't be in today's episode, but there's a little something that I don't think you know that is a little it shook me a little bit interesting. Well, I know most people, a lot of people have watched the Staircase documentary series that was on Netflix, and there was a dramatized version that came out in twenty twenty two that ruined Colin Firth.

7:19 For me, I love Colin first, but I was like, by the end of the Staircase, you hated Michael Peterson so much that you hate Killin Firth. I mean, we didn't even finish the HBO series because it was so similar. It just seemed like there was no need to watch it. And yeah, I really do have a hard time with Michael Peterson. I've heard a lot of people call him charming, and I'm like, yeah, I don't know in what world that's charming. I don't I don't either. On its surface, I think the case is pretty simple. Michael Peterson called nine one one at two forty am on Sunday, December ninth of two thousand and one and frantically reported that his wife had had an accident. She had fallen down the stairs. But obviously the case is taken on a life of its own. It's so complicated. There's so much involved here, and so many strong opinions on both sides of whether Michael is guilty or not.

8:15 I think when we started this whole Peterson project, we didn't we didn't realize how we were getting ourselves much information there is. Sometimes I get frustrated with our podcast because there are people that can devote, you know, a year to a project, and we can't do that because we put an episode out every week. Yeah, we have done our best on this one. I mean you, I was a little worried about you this week. I really didn't see you much because you took the lead on this one. I did a little bit of the of the legwork, but did you worked really hard. It's been a stressful couple of weeks. But I think we're going to start by having you read a little bit of an excerpt from Michael Peterson's book, Let Me Give You a little background. In twenty nineteen, Michael Peterson wrote two book books. One of them is called Behind the Staircase and the other is called Beyond the Staircase. We'll get into this later, but all the proceeds from these two books were donated to charity. I didn't read the whole book. I read the sample on Kindle. Here's a little excerpt from it. Wilbur and Portia are lethargic English bulldogs raise their heavy heads to watch, but any effort to move was too much, so they stayed with me, also too lethargic to move. It was a beautiful, magical night, with a pool shimmering and stars glistening. I settled contentedly on the chase.

9:33 I was so happy. My life's so good. I loved my wife, I loved my children, I loved my work. I had just heard that a book of mine had been optioned for a movie. I loved my house, I loved my dogs. I wanted this moment to last forever. That's beautiful. So if I had time, I would have read the whole thing. But the book was just an airing of grievances and an attempt at rationalizing his action, like he talked about a lot of people have questioned, well, why was he at the poll until two thirty am? It was December, and you and I looked up the weather and what was the weather that night? It was in at that time, it was in the low fifties, like maybe fifty one to fifty four degrees, So he was wearing shorts and a T shirt. And in the book he talks about how it was an uncharacteristically warm December evening nearly sixty degrees. So you can tell right there that the book write in history a little bit. Yeah, for sure, I think that he wanted the public to kind of say, oh, this is just a man who's been through a lot and he really really loved his wife. But it doesn't come off as that. It comes off as him trying to rationalize his behavior, and it's not the loving tribute to Kathleen that she definitely deserved. Yeah, Well, we will dig into Michael's background and his because I think like his personality and just who he is, his character is really important to this story, and I think a lot of we're probably going to spend more time on his background. In some of the anecdotes from you know, his first marriage and things like that. Then maybe some of

11:05 the other podcasts have because I do think it's it's not necessarily things that are admissible in a court of law, but I think it does get to his just his personality, personality, like he's kind of a strange guy and for sure maybe a narcissist, right, well, probably a narsissy, not a psychologist, but yes, he definitely has a lot of characteristics of a narcissist. And that said about Michael, We're also going to talk about Kathleen's background because in so many cases, the victim gets lost, and I think she's been lost a little bit, so we're going to talk about her background too, for sure. So today I think that's what we're planning on mostly is just giving you background before this, before the crime. Yeah, we'll see how far we get. But let's start with Michael's background. So Michael Iver Peterson ivor it's a weird, weird middle is a nice name, yeah, I guess. He was born on October twenty third, nineteen forty three.

11:58 He was the first child of Eugene and Eleanor Peterson. Just a month after his birth, his father was shipped overseas to fight in World War Two. After his father's return, the family added two more sons, Bill and John, or Jack as he was known, and a daughter Anne. Eugene ended up making a career in the military, which meant that the family moved around a lot as Michael grew up. The family lived at various times in Japan, Washington State, Georgia, Kansas, California, Virginia, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, and Copenhagen, Denmark. That's a lot of places. I know. That's really a lot of places. I often wonder do you think that's good for a child to grow up in all these different places or is it bad that they don't have like kind of roots that they're settled in. I think a little bit of both probably true. When I was researching at Kathleen's background, and she traveled around a little bit too, we really haven't in her life, and our kids have been in the same school district, and sometimes I wonder if that's it would be better to move around and meet new friends and be a little more adventurous. Yeah, there's definitely something to that.

13:05 Michael left his family, who were living in Virginia at the time, to attend college at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. While at Duke, he was incredibly active. When I'm going to read you the list of things he got involved in, but this just kind of blows my mind, like all the things that he did during college. So he joined the Air Force ROTC. He joined a pre law society called Bench and Bar. He was on the staff of the university newspaper, and he was the editor during his senior year. He got involved in the campus YMCA, student politics, the debate team, and the publication board, which oversaw the newspaper, yearbook and campus magazine. He joined the Sigma new fraternity and was president his senior year, along with sitting on the inter Fraternity Council and the Council of Presidents, which consisted of leaders from various student groups. So yeah, I'd say he was pretty busy during his college years. He graduated in nineteen sixty five with a degree in political science. While back at home during a break, he met Patricia or Patty Balkman, who was home on a visit from the University of Texas in Austin, and the two started a long distance relationship.

14:16 They would end up getting married in nineteen sixty six. I had seen her referred to as Patty Sue. I hadn't seen that, but I like it Yatty Sue. Michael started law school after he graduated, but he left before completing his first year, and then he got a job in Washington, d c. As a systems science analyst for a defense consultant, and that job sent him to Vietnam to conduct a study. The war was going on, of course, and he saw a lot of corruption and illegal dealings, like, for example, fudging of daily reports of those killed in action. So I think it made him a little bit cynical about the government and the war and things like that. The experience also made him want to write the Great American novel about the Vietnam War, much like Hemingway did with A Farewell to Arms with World War One. But he decided that to write about it, he needed to really experience the war, not as a consultant but as a soldier, and so he enlisted in the Marines in nineteen sixty eight and was deployed to Vietnam in nineteen sixty nine, which is pretty amazing. I mean, I don't think there were a lot of people volunteering to go to Vietnam in nineteen sixty eight sixty nine. People were trying to avoid it, but he really wanted the experience. While he was deployed, Patty moved in with Michael's family, who were living in Copenhagen, Denmark at that point, and then she got a teaching position with the Department of Defense at an Air Force base in West Germany. In Vietnam, Michael was in charge of about thirty men. Even though Peterson was against the war, he had a gung ho

15:48 attitude and he would volunteer his squad for extra patrols, which caused some resentment among his men, but over time he won them over and he earned their trust and specked. His squad saw combat and sustained some casualties. Peterson was awarded a Silver Star for gallantry in battle, but despite his later claims, he was not injured in Vietnam and he did not receive a Purple Star. Well, he was injured in Vietnam, but not in battle on Vietnam. He was actually injured while stationed in Japan after leaving Vietnam, but it was in a car accident. Yeah, he was driving a friend home after dinner when a truck slammed into the side of his car. Peterson was trapped in the car for about thirty minutes while his friend died in the passenger seat next to him, which is really it's just horrible to think about. His leg was shattered and he walked with a limp. After that, Peterson received an honorable discharge and a permanent medical disability. Over the next few years, Mike and Patty lived in Germany, where Patty continued to teach, but they also moved back and forth a few times between Germany and Durham, North Carolina.

16:56 Clayton was born in Germany in December of nineteen seventy four, and then Todd was born in March of nineteen seventy six. While they were in Germany, Patty worked while Michael was basically a house husband. He worked on his writing and he went to the gym every day, but he didn't really do a lot of housework. The house was usually a mess, and if Patty ever said anything to him about it, he would blow up. Friends said they felt like Patty walked on eggshells around her husband. Patty had a good friend named pat Finn, who was another teacher for the Department of Defense. In May of nineteen eighty three, Patty and Mike went to visit Pat and her husband in Berlin. While staying with them, Michael stole Pat's debit card while Pat was in the shower, Michael rummaged through her drawers to find her pin and then proceeded to withdraw the maximum daily amount each of the next four days.

17:48 Totally right, one thousand dollars. That's not okay. No, no, that's not okay. And it took pat months to realize what happened because she and her husband went back to the States for a few months after their visit and she didn't find out about the theft until she returned, and when she mapped back the dates of the withdrawals, she realized it was right at the time when Michael and Patty came to visit. And she also realized that anytime that Michael and Patty visited things would end up missing, generally smaller items without a lot of value. So Pat called Michael and confronted him, and he confessed to stealing the thousand dollars and promised to pay her back, although he only made two partial payments and never reimbursed her. For the entirety.

18:32 It's horrible. I know. That's why I think like some of these stories. I know they're a little bit anecdotal, maybe a little bit hearsay, Right, this is just Pap Finn telling this story. But I do think it's kind of like relevant to Michael's character and how old is he at this point. He's probably thirty ish. I guess he would have been around forty at this time. So he was an adult, should be a responsible adult, and he was. He had some sort of disability. He was receiving them from the military each month. Yeah, I don't know how much that was, but yeah, I think he was receiving disability payments. Also, while in Germany, Michael and Patty became good friends with George and Liz Ratliffe. Liz worked with Patty as a teacher for the Department of Defense, and George was a captain in the Air Force. Liz grew up in Rhode Island and fun fact, she used to babysit for Peter and Bobby Fairley over there.

19:26 It would go on to fame by making movies like Dumb and Dumber and There's Something about Mary. Liz was musically talented and she really liked to sing at coffeehouses both during and after college. Liz and George had two daughters, Margaret, who was born near the end of nineteen eighty one, and then Martha just thirteen months later. In early nineteen eighty three, Liz had a blood disorder called von Willebrand's disease, where blood doesn't clop properly. It can cause complications during childbirth, but luckily Liz's case was mild and didn't cause any issues during either Margaret's or Martha's birth. It's a less severe type of hemophelia. Correct. I believe that is correct. I'm not a doctor, but I believe you're right now, Okay, I googled it is yeah. In October of nineteen eighty three, George died mysteriously while on a secret mission at an unknown location. His roommate during the mission found him dead in his bunk.

20:19 The autopsy didn't uncover any reason for his death, and the toxicology report was clean. His cause of death was listed as unknown, along with the location of his death, which was classified. After his death, Liz went into a deep depression, making it challenging for her to keep working while also raising two small children. Michael jumped in to help her manage her household finances, including drafting a new will for her that named he and Patty as guardians for Margaret and Martha in case anything happened to Liz. Yeah, and it actually this came up in the trial later that Liz's sister looked at the will and the handwriting was definitely not Liz's handwriting, because Liz was left handed and wrote with a backwards slant, and the writing was basically the opposite of the wheel. I had thought that that Liz and what was her husband's name, George, that they had written the will is misreported in some places, and as you probably already know, something did happen to Liz. On Sunday, November twenty fourth of nineteen eighty five, Liz and her girls had dinner with Michael, Paddy, and their boys. After dinner, Michael walked Liz, Margaret, and Martha down the street to their home. He helped Liz get the girls ready for bed, and once they were asleep, Liz drove her car to a mechanic, with Michael following her and then giving her a ride back home. Wait they left the girls home alone. I think they were in bed, but yeah, I think they did. I don't know how far it was to the mechanic, but they probably were like, yeah, they're sleeping whatever, okay. He then after they got back, he took

21:53 Liz's trash out for pick up the next morning before he headed back home to Patty and the boys. At some point in the evening. And I've seen two different reports. I'm not sure which one is accurate. Here one said ten pm and the other said twelve fifty am. Liz's neighbor said that she heard a door slam and looked out her window to see Michael leaving Liz's home in a hurry on Monday morning. The next morning, the children's nanny, Barbara, showed up around seven to fifteen am as usual, to find Liz at the bottom of the stairs dead. There have been some differing accounts of the scene, but the nanny and a neighbor named Amy Beth, who came to the scene, both later testified that there was a lot of blood on the walls and the floor. Amy Beth, who was nearly six feet tall, later said that at the top of the stairs the blood was higher on the wall than she could reach. But again, I've heard different things about the scene of Elizabeth's death as well. I've heard that there wasn't that much blood, and I've heard other people say there was a lot. So it's a little frustrating trying to get to the truth of that one. It's just so wild that two women in Michael's white life I've died at the bottom of a staircase. He gets zero points for originality. What are the odds?

23:07 Eh? So Barbara went and got the Peterson's and soon German police and EMTs arrived. Michael told anyone who would listen that Liz had a cerebral hemorrhage and fell down the stairs. Wait after the autopsy or no before when people were at the scene. I've read that Michael was basically telling people she had a cerebral hemorrhage. Hmm. Obviously he would not know that. You wouldn't think he would be qualified. Liz's body was taken to Frankfurt for an autopsy under US Army supervision. The base there had four staff pathologists, but none of them was a forensic pathologist, and none had any experience doing an autopsy where foul play was suspected. The final report of the autopsy said that the cause of death was sarahbellar hemorrhage complicated by von Willebrand's disease. Liz had complained of bad headaches in the days before her death, so that concl usion might make sense. Additionally, Patty later said that she saw the German medical examiner take a spinal tap and that the contents did not look clear, which would also indicate a cerebral hemorrhage. Michael years later said that she had a stroke.

24:15 Okay, but that wasn't def I think that could be consistent with a sarabellar hemorrhage, right, it sounds like it. Yeah, I believe so. I think a sarabellar hemorrhage, as according to Google, could be caused by a stroke, or it could be caused by trauma. Yeah. Interesting, And you didn't mention this earlier. But she was forty one and George was thirty three. Yes, and after his I think that she thought that she wasn't going to marry and she really loved him, and she was so happy to have these two children because she was an older mom, especially at that time, and so after his death, she was devastated, and that's why she had to have a nanny because she was having a hard time caring for the kids. And Michael did step up, yeah, with the kids, and they were very close. Yeah, I think it was really hard for her. She was definitely in a depression and I think just going to work every day was all she could really, you know, kind of handle in that state. So I think having Barbara was really helpful for her, and I think, yeah, Michael also helped. Barbara and others did not believe the conclusion. Barbara would tell everyone that she knew that there was more to Liz's death. She later testified in Michael's trial that Elizabeth always laid out breakfast settings for her daughters before she went to bed at night, and no settings had been laid out when her body was found on Monday morning, indicating that she probably died the night before. Barbara also testified that Elizabeth was wearing snow boots when her body was found and all the lights were on, again, suggesting that she died on Sunday night, not Monday morning. She was wearing

25:47 snow boots. Yes, I think if she was wearing snow boots, that definitely a point points the finger at Michael a little bit more because she and Michael had just gotten back, you know, Sunday night, from taking her car to the mechanic. So if he did something to her, then it was right when they got back, before she took off her boot, her boots. You probably don't know this, but were the stairs wooden stairs? I believe they were wooden stairs. Yes, so if her snow boots were wet, she also could have slipped on the stairs. True, and her the position of her body was just crumpled at the bottom of the stairs. It wasn't necessarily like Kathleen's body was how she was. Kathleen was sitting up.

26:27 Yeah, I don't think so. I think it was more like crumpled up a little bit. I saw Patty, Michael's wife at the time she re enacted it on the Staircase documentary where she kind of laid down on the stairs where in the position that she had said that Liz was in, and it was kind of more like, yeah, just sort of crumpled up at the bottom step. Very sad, Yeah, for sure. Pat Finn, Patty's friend that Michael had stolen from, was also suspicious when she heard the news. She remembered that Michael would constantly make make negative remarks about Liz, almost to the point where Pat felt like he was obsessed with her. Somehow, She actually called the Criminal Investigation Division of the Military Police and shared her suspicions that Michael was involved in Liz's death, but they never followed up.

27:15 What do you think the extent of their relationship was? Were they having an affair which I know you don't know the answer to. I definitely do not know the answer to. But more than one person, So Pat Finn was one, and then Michael's sister Anne came to visit them for an extended period while they were in Germany, and both of them said that he was like obsessed, like he would talk about Liz all the time, but it wasn't like he would talk about her in a positive way. It was like negative like she's crazy, or she's dumb, or she doesn't know how to manage her household or things like that, and so it's yeah, I don't know the nature of their relationship, but there was definitely something. So it could have been like a brother sister relationship, could have been yeah, or or they might have been having an affair. You know, we just don't know.

27:56 Michael seems like a gossipy type of her. He does. Many people will argue vociferously that Elizabeth's death was an accident. It was ruled an accident at the time, and the autopsy said it was an accident. I personally am suspicious of that conclusion, only because of what happened afterwards. In the odds of two people close to you dying from falling down the stairs is just so astronomical. You're not alone. But at the same time, I do, I do look back and I think, well, what would what would have been his motive of killing Elizabeth. It wasn't money, because he did get He did get money from her estate to help with the children, but it wasn't a huge amount. I think it was valid. Then he had two extra children to take care of, yeah, exactly, so it wasn't definitely wasn't money. If he did do it. I always thought, if he did do it, it was a crime of passion. It was something a spur of the moment that you know, maybe they had been up in her bedroom and you know, they had an argument and he pushed her down the stairs. Yeah, could be unfortunately, no with that, why don't we take a quick break. According to the terms of Elizabeth's will, Michael and Patty now became the legal guardians of Margaret, who was around four years old, and Martha, who was not quite two. I thought they were younger, like one of them wasn't even a year old. Yeah, I have seen different stories that said they were younger, and I actually went back

29:27 and checked the dates to verify, and I believe it is correct that Margaret was almost four and Martha was almost three. Still very or almost two, I'm sorry, almost two, so yeah, still very young. Like a lot of cases that get this famous and this big, I think there's a lot of reporting that or facts that get stated, maybe incorrectly, and then they get repeated over and over and over again, and they just, you know, almost become like fact, even when they're wrong. With Michael and Patty taking custody of the girls, the girls, nanny Barbara stay involved in their lives for a period of time after that, and she got to know Michael and Patty, who she hadn't known very well before. She said that Michael could be aggressive, mean, and impatient, and that he displayed clear favoritism toward Margaret. She reported that at least twice she saw Martha with bruises and once confronted Michael about it. Michael told Barbara that Martha had been a bad, bad girl and she needed to learn manners. He said that he had rubbed Martha's nose in the carpet like a dog when she had an accident.

30:29 Oh God, again, hearsay. I know it's one person saying this, but it's just did she make up exactly? And she really cared for the girls, I think as well. In the summer of nineteen eighty six, Michael left Martha and Rhode Island with her aunt and uncle, Margaret and Jim Blair, and then he traveled to Texas to leave Margaret with her dad's family while he and Patty got settled in Durham, North Carolina. These poor little girls, yeah, I don't think we talk about that, and it's been talked about enough, like the trauma that they had on their lives. Yeah, and there's more to come as well. So Michael asked the Blairs at that point whether they would take Martha permanently. They said they were happy to, but they asked what about Margaret. The two girls had been through so much and they know they only had each other in terms of close family.

31:17 But Michael would not agree to give both girls up to the Blairs, and so they declined his offer to take Martha because they thought the girls should stay together. Absolutely of course, right then, in nineteen eighty eight, Patty told Michael that a wealthy older couple in Germany wanted to adopt the girls. At first, Michael refused to let them go, but Patty convinced him. They put the girls, who were seven and five at the time, on a plane to Germany by themselves to be picked up by the couple, which again just horrible. Yeah, and the couple that adopted them or were going to adopt them didn't speak much English, which made things difficult. And after only a week they changed their mind about adopting the girls, and the girls flew back to North Carolina. So agreed they were. They went through a lot, like they just went through a lot with everything. It's such an impressionable age when you kids need a stable home, and yeah, they did not have it. Someone to bond too. And it sounds like Patty wasn't the warm and fuzzy mom that they probably needed at that time. I don't think so, and I don't think she was ever really on board with taking custody of the kids. I think that was more Michael's thing. In nineteen ninety, Margaret and Martha spent the summer with their aunt and uncle in Rhode Island. Again. After returning, Margaret tattled on Martha for not saying her good night prayers, and Michael fired off an angry letter to their aunt.

32:44 He said, quote, the girls had a terrific time with you, and I thank you very much. My only concern is with the heavy dose of religion that they, Margaret in particular, brought back. It borders slightly on fundamentalist fanaticism that Liz was utterly opposed to. And apparently their aunt had again expressed a desire to adopt the two girls, because in his letter he also said quote, they absolutely need me. Believe me, if I thought that it would be better for Martha and Margaret to live with you, or that you could better raise them, than I would step aside. But deep in my heart, I believe that I am the best person to mold and guide them and love them too. Yikes. Around that time, Michael and Patty moved the family back to Germany, but soon after Michael returned to Durham with Martha and Margaret, leaving the boys with their mother in Germany. At the end of the nineteen ninety one school year, Patty came back to the States with Clayton and Todd, and she drove Margaret and Martha up to Rhode Island again for the summer. When she dropped them off at their aunt Margaret's house, Patty told her that she and Michael were separating, and again offered for the Blairs to permanently adopt the girls in order to provide them with a more stable home environment. Again, the Blairs were delighted, but Michael called them angrily in augustying that he had no idea that Patty told them that they could adopt the girls. He said it was his decision and he was coming to Rhode Island and would talk to the girls and let them decide. By this point he was living with Kathleen and her daughter Caitlin, who will talk about in a minute. But he drove to Rhode Island with Kathleen and Caitlyn

34:17 and sat down with Margaret and Martha, saying, I leave this choice up to you. But I'm telling you that your mother never, never wanted you to live with your aunt Margaret never. But I'm leaving the decision to you. Wait, how old are they? They were nine and eight at this time, and they said they wanted to live in Durham with Michael, Kathleen, and Caitlyn, who they were actually friends with Caitlin as well. Before we talk about Kathleen, I wanted to spend just a minute talking about Michael's writing career. I think a lot of people assume that he either wasn't a very good writer or wasn't a very successful writer. But neither of those things is actually true. He was quite successful as an author, both financially and critically. His His first book, The Immortal Dragon, was published in July of nineteen eighty three. It was a five hundred and twenty seven page novel set in nineteenth century France and Vietnam. Have you read it? I was going to get a sample of it, but I didn't. I ran out of time. It was described as a saga of love, lust, courage, and treachery. One review called it quote beautifully crafted work, rich with history and characters you care for unquote His second book, A Time of War, was released in nineteen ninety. For it, he received in advance of six hundred thousand dollars and NBC acquired an option on the book, although I don't believe they ever made anything out of it. This was his epic, five hundred and eighty page Vietnam war novel, and it made it onto the New York Times bestseller list. One review said, quote A Time of War

35:52 ranks with the best of novels dealing with the war in Vietnam. I did read a portion of Michael's twenty nineteen book Behind the Staircase, and I would call well written. Yeah, he was trying to rationalize his behavior after the incidents with Kathleen. But I mean, yeah, he was a good writer, though he isn't Okay, Yeah, he's a pretty good writer. I'd say. He got an advance of four hundred and fifty thousand dollars for his third book, which would end up being called A Bitter Piece, published in nineteen ninety six. Again it was about Vietnam, and again it was fairly well reviewed. He also a lot of money, and that was in White Year, Yeah, in nineteen ninety six, So yeah, significantly more now, Yeah, for sure. And the way an advance works, you get an advance, but then if you're the number of copies sold exceeds a certain amount, then you get you know, kickbacks from that too. Yeah.

36:42 And I never read how much money he made in total the books. I just read about the advances, so I don't know if he also got more money after that. He also collaborated on a book published in nineteen ninety eight called Charlie two Shoes and the Marines of Love Company. This was a true story about a Chinese man nicknamed Charlie Twoshoes by some US Marines who had befriended him in nineteen forty five. When the Communists took over in nineteen forty nine and the Marines pulled out, Charlie spent seventeen of the next thirty five years as a political prisoner because of his close relationship with the Marines, and when the soldiers learned of his plight, they lobbied the US Congress to bring him to the US. Well, I'm going to tell you a little bit about eighteen ten Cedar Street, the home that Peterson family lived in. It was built in nineteen forty and Michael purchased the sixth bath five bedroom home in nineteen ninety three for six hundred thousand dollars after he received one of those large book advances. It is located within the historic Forest Hills neighborhood in Durham, North Carolina, and at the time, I don't know if this still stands, it was the largest residential property in all of Durham, which tells you something about again about Michael's personality. I think he just wanted the best in the biggest house. He was more about his reputation and his appearance and maybe his substance sometimes. The house is about ten thousand square feet, which is pretty sizeable, pretty big house. There are fourteen rooms, five bedrooms and six

38:14 bathrooms, four chimneys, two staircases, a grand staircase in the front of the house, and an old dark staircase in the rear of the house that was probably used for servants because it's off the kitchen. I was looking at some pictures on Zilla and the grand staircases. Really it's amazing and it's really beautiful. It's very Yeah, it's very grand, but the house has been The pictures that you saw are different than what it looked like that. I'm not sure. I know the house has been redone. There's an outdoor pool, and it sits on three and a half wooded acres. Among the fourteen rooms are a library, a study, a game room, an exercise room.

38:58 Kathleen will talk about in a minute. She filled the home with thousands of dollars of antiques, art and collectibles. Petersons really loved their home and they were really proud of it. After his conviction, the house was listed at one point one seventy five million dollars and a state sale was held at the house and throngs of people paid twenty dollars to get a peek at the Peterson home and bid on their belongings, which is always such a weird Like it happened more recently with the Murdas. It just it turned into more like a tourist attraction. Then well, I mean the sale was like it was a three day sale, but you know how people like camped out and I believe a few thousand people went through the house that day, which I definitely would have paid twenty oh yeah, totally to see the house. I can only imagine like people were like grouped grouped at the staircase, you know, trying to solve the crime. The proceeds of this state sale were split among the five children. The price on the house was slashed several times, eventually selling in the summer of two thousand and four for six hundred and forty thousand dollars. The buyer renovated the home and relisted it for one point nine million dollars in twenty twenty. According to zillo dot Com, it is valued at more than three million dollars today. Renowned scholar, filmmaker, professor, and host of the PBS series Finding Your Roots, Henry Lewis Gates Junior owned the home while he was teaching at Duke University before he moved on to Harvard and the nineteen ninety film Handmaid's Tale was partially filmed at the house on Cedar Street,

40:28 which is kind of cool that it was used as the commander's house. The exterior of the house is also used, as is the staircase in that film, which makes me want to go watch the film. But when we went to Toronto, we went to Cassa Loma, and there are so many a lot of movies. It's so funny because It made me realize you can frame any room and make it look like part of a palace or whatever. Yeah, all right, Should we talk about Kathleen now, Yes, Like we said, Kathleen and her history gets lost in this story sometimes because she was a remarkable woman. John Franklin Hunt owned a successful construction company in New York when he met and fell in love with the secretary more than twenty years his junior, Veronica Anne Hogan. The couple married in nineteen forty six and moved to Saint Louis, where they had their first child, Stephen, in nineteen fifty one. The family moved to Greensboro, North Carolina, before Kathleen Kathy Morris Hunt was born in February of nineteen fifty three. They moved again in nineteen fifty five to Lancaster, Pennsylvania, where Candace and Laurie were born.

41:43 John was sixty three years old by the time his last daughter was born. Wow. Yeah. John and Veronica were proponents of education and being well read. Their home was filled with stacks of books. Kathy showed promise from an early age. She was voted Girl of the Year in seventh grade and won the title of Ancaster lasso I think was a pretty big honor. In high school, she was president of the debate club, and remember Michael was in the debate. She played on the tennis team and was editor of the school magazine, so you can see. And Michael was also editor of a magazine of his I think it was his college magazine, but lat in common.

42:24 She graduated first in her high school class. In nineteen seventy one, Kathy was the first woman ever admitted to the Duke University's College of Engineering. That's amazing, It's very cool. She thrived at Duke, where she dropped the diminutive form of her name and became Kathleen. She met her first husband, Fred Atwater in a physics class. He was a grad student and teaching assistant. They married after Kathleen graduated from Duke in nineteen seventy five with a Bachelor of Science degree in civil engineering. She and Fred married that year in August in a private ceremony with only a few friends present. After their marriage, Fred continued his studies at Duke, working towards his doctorate in physics, while Kathleen worked on a master's degree in civil engineering. Fred finished his doctorate and accepted a job at that John Hopkins Applied Physics Lab, which required the couple to move to Columbia, Maryland. Kathleen finished her master's thesis and began work at Baltimore Air Quoyle Pritchard, working on the construction and repair of cooling towers and power plants. In nineteen eighty one, after years of trying to conceive, Kathleen became pregnant. Kathleen's career was thriving, but she was most proud of becoming a mother to Caitlin Veronica Atwater, who was born on April twenty seventh, nineteen eighty two. Kathleen doted on Caitlin like her mother had on her. She focused on providing her with a good education and an enriched childhood filled with travel, art and culture. In nineteen eighty six, the

43:57 Atwaters decided to move back to Durham, North Carolina, when Fred received a job offer from GTE. They loved their college years there and were excited to move back. They settled in the upscale historic Forest Hills neighborhood. Does that sound familiar? It sure does. Kathleen took a break from her career to get settled in their new home and enjoy some time with her daughter. Kathleen's mother, Veronica, now a widow, loved to spend time with her daughter and granddaughter. In June nineteen eighty seven, Kathleen began working at Northern Telecom, which later became Nortel, where she worked until her death. She was rapidly promoted due to her ambition, intelligence, and competence. Kathleen and Fred's marriage crumbled when he began a relationship with a younger female colleague. It began as a mentorship but quickly evolved into a romantic relationship, ending his marriage to Kathleen. Despite her best efforts to keep her family together. After the divorce, Fred continued to play an important role in Caitlyn's life. Both her parents were very devoted to her. Caitlyn was a bright, sensitive, and inquisitive child, but she had a hard time making friends. Kathleen sought out play dates for her in the Forest Hills neighborhood where they lived. Margaret and Martha Peterson were similar in age to Caitlin, and they soon became really good friends, playing Barbie and having adventures together. Michael Peterson and his wife Patty were going through a difficult time after she had returned to Germany to teach, and

45:28 she had brought Clayton and Todd with her. Michael and Kathleen became close friends, confiding in each other about their marital woes and eventually began dating. Michael and Patty divorced in nineteen eighty seven, and Kathleen and Caitlyn moved into the mansion in eighteen ten Cedars Street in nineteen eighty nine, but they did not marry until nineteen ninety seven. Kathleen had always wanted more children and was overjoyed to gain two more daughters and Martha and Margaret. Eventually, Clayton and Todd moved into the house on Cedar Street too, but by that time I think they were kind of college aged, is that correct? I think that is true. They were a happy family, and Kathleen embraced them all and treated them like her own. They all loved her very much, and I think that's apparent if you've watched The Staircase. Kathleen loved hosting parties, receptions and fundraising galas supporting the arts. She and Michael were at the center of the Durham social scene and never missed a Black tieh event. She was quote the Martha Stewart of Durham as the society columnist for the local newspaper once said she was active on the Arts Council and the Historic Preservation Society. She was known as the queen of clean and organization and could make a gourmet meal for fifty with little to no notice. I've read that she would like they would have people over to the house and she would always cook herself rather than Yeah, she did it herself. And by all accounts, Michael and Kathleen adored each

47:02 other. They enjoyed spending time together. They really had a they had a healthy marriage by all accounts. Yeah, Kathleen was a fabulous step mom, which is a really hard role to fill, so I think she might. She obviously was an exceptional woman. Yeah, She's very loving, lovely person and had had a lot going for both in terms of her career and her intelligence, but also as a loving, kind of carrying mother and wife m HM. In the months before her death, that Peterson's became empty nesters, and they celebrated with a huge party in early September, probably right before nine to eleven. As the crowd dwindled, the remaining partygoers became increasingly intoxicated and inhibitions were lowered. I know you think I'm going to talk about a key party here, but I'm not. Several people jumped into the pool, Kathleen among them. Unfortunately, she dove into the shallow end of the pool, resulting in a pretty bad head and neck injury that plagued Kathleen until her death.

48:02 She frequently was seen wearing a neck brace, and she had been taking muscle relaxers and valuum to help her through the pain. Okay, so Kathleen was forty eight and she still knew how to have a good time. I'll say I would have to close their blinds because you keep looking out the windows. There's a lot of distractions, a lot of things going on in the neighborhood, the mail carrier delivering our mail. I'm sorry, I'll try to pay closer attention. All right, you're usually laser focused. I know. I want to share one thing that happened involving Michael and Patty's son, Clayton in nineteen ninety four. It's a bit of an aside, but I think it's interesting and perhaps relevant to understanding the family dynamics. It's insane. The challenges it is a little bit insane too. Clayton had some He had had some disciplinary problems in nineteen ninety three during the summer between his freshmen and sophomore years at college, and Michael had sent him to get counseling. In April of nineteen eighty four, though, someone discovered a bomb in Duke University's main administration building, along with a note saying that war had been declared on the university. The bomb was basically a gateorade bottle filled with gasoline and a fuse.

49:16 The fuse had actually been lit, but it had burned out just inches before igniting the gasoline. The investigation led police to Clayton, and when Michael gave them permission to search their home, investigators found an assortment of model rocket engines, gunpowder, different lengths of fuses, and equipment for making official university student ID cards that had been stolen. There were six pipe bombs and enough materials to make thirteen more. Two of the bombs were rigged to be launched from a crossbow. Clayton was arrested and charged with possession of unregistered destructive devices and for the manufacture of those devices. Although he could have faced up to thirty years in prison and seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars in fines, he struck a plea deal. He apologized to the judge, and he was sentenced to four years and one month in a federal prison. That story has not talked about enough. I think that's really indicative of the troubles that were in the house with these kids. And I had said that they were happy when they were younger. I think they were happy, but I think as they all aged into adolescents and early adulthood, they all struggled with a lot of problems. Yeah, I'm going to go into that a little bit at the end. Yeah, everyone has their issues as an adolescent and as a college student. But yeah, making bombs, making bombs and actually attempting to and they were in the family home. It's really it's really I think it's horrifying.

50:46 Yeah, And Michael would downplay it and defend Clayton. He would basically say the bombs they were too small to do any damage, and that Clayton was just trying to create a diversion because he stole the ID, the machine to create student id's and so the bomb was just a diversion, and Clayton said that they wouldn't have detonated, but I believe they would have, yeah, for sure, gasoline and a fuse. I think we need to mention in the staircase they sweep us under the rock. They're like, oh, Clayton had some. It just makes it sound like, you know, he could old boy stuff, right, But making a bomb multiple pumps, that's that's troubling, Yeah, for sure. In nineteen ninety seven, Michael started writing a regular column for the Durham Herald Son newspaper. He used the column mostly to attack the Durham government, the police department, and the district attorney.

51:37 He complained about taxes, and he criticized the police for wasting their time busting bingo halls and for their their low close rate of solving crimes. Which I'm kind of with them on that one. Right, you're spending your time busting bingo halls, you probably there's probably other things you could be focusing on. In one of his columns, he said, quote, the chance of a criminal getting caught is only slightly better than getting hit by lightning. A lot of police officers were irritated by his commentary, which would provide fodder for his defense team to try and claim that the police targeted him after Kathleen's death because of these columns. After a couple of years of writing this column, Peterson had made a bit of a name for himself and he had obviously strong opinions on the local government, so he decided to run for mayor of Durham.

52:24 This was in nineteen ninety nine. There were five candidates in the October primary election, and the top two vote getters would end up being on the ballot in November. He ran a grassroots campaign, with most of his donations coming in small amounts of less than one hundred dollars. The main issues he campaigned on were standing up against drugs, gangs and illegal weapons, promoting racial harmony, and returning power to the people. It looked like he was on his way to a top two finish in the primary, but then a reporter confronted him about a claim he had made that he had earned two purple hearts while in Vietnam and that he took shrapnel in his leg, which was why he walked with a limp. The reporter did some research and found that there were no purple hearts, and Michael's injury had occurred in the car accident that we had talked about earlier, not in combat. Michael admitted that he had lied, and he wrote a paid political column where he tried to set the record straight and repair his damaged reputation, but it was too little, too late, and he ended up coming in third, just six hundred votes behind the second place finished. How did he really, Yeah, he was close.

53:31 I mean, I think without that news coming out, he probably would have at least made it to the general election. I think it's interesting that he's running on a platform against drugs and alcohol when his two sons had a lot of run ins with the law, I believe, and they able to have issues with drugs and alcohol. They're both call themselves alcoholics. Oh really yeah. Interesting. I know we have not gotten to the actual crime or alleged crime, but I think it's a good point to say, oh my gosh, h part one, yes, I promise you. In part two we will talk about Kathleen's death and whether that was an accident or a crime, and all of the evidence and all of that stuff. But I think this is a good point to stop, all right, before we go.

54:22 I wanted to give a heartfelt and hearty thank you to our listeners and patrons for your support. This month, we were able to donate one hundred and fifty dollars to the San Bernardino Cave and Technical Rescue Team. So we talked about this team of volunteers and we did the case on Aaron Corwin, just super sad case where she disappeared in the desert. And this group of people, they you know, they search for people who are lost or trapped and rescue people who are like in mind shafts and things like that, and they're just incredibly brave volunteers. And Aaron's mo lor Hevelyn, actually messaged us a while back and asked us if we would consider supporting this charity as one of our donations. And so we're happy to be able to do that because they're really heroic people. And you said some of those volunteers have lost their lives.

55:15 Yeah, yeah, I mean it's a very dangerous work that they do. It's important work, and I know that Aaron's family was super just grateful that they were able to help find her. So thank you so much. Okay, so it's my birthday week. Happy birthday to me. Happy birthday time, I know, and for my birthday, if you could leave a five star review, that'd be awesome, that would be great for me. You don't have to even leave a review. You can just rate. You can just you know, that's a lot easier. You can just go to the bottom, scroll down wherever you're listening, go to the bottom, and I think that's how it usually works, and there's stars and just click on five stars. So thank you. Do it for the birthday girl, and thank you all for listening. Follow us on social media. Love Mary Kill on Instagram, LMK pod on Twitter. You can find us on Facebook.

56:05 Consider supporting us on Patreon five dollars a month. Go to patreon dot com slash Love Mary Kill for ad free and access, early access and one bonus episode a month. If you have left a review or rating, thank you so much, and we are reading them. We don't read them on air, we don't really post them on social media anymore, but know that we see them and we appreciate it keeps us going and sometimes they, honest to God, tear me up. So your support means so much. It's until next time. Don't kill your husband don't kill your wife, turning to pick the