Kathleen and Michael Peterson - Part 1

WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned

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in over twenty years of marriage,
some days you'll feel like killing your husband,

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and some days you'll feel like killing
your wife. Welcome to love,

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Mary Kill, Hey Tina, Hey
Rich. How are you? I'm great?

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How are you? I'm doing good? Happy twenty twenty four, Happy

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twenty twenty four. Although you know
there is a statute of limitations on Happy

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New Year, Larry David says three
days is what's acceptable. Well, I

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don't subscribe to Larry David's policies.
So I'm going to say Happy New Year

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to our friends and listeners and our
cats. Fair enough, fair enough.

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I have something for you, do
you. Yeah? I know you don't

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like our theme song at all,
and this is all I wouldn't say at

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all. I like the idea of
it, and I was actually going to

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ask you. Our listeners they think
we should change it, and if you

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are willing to change it, if
enough people agree that we should open the

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door, slam that door open.
Yeah. Yeah. So it's one of

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the few things we disagree about on
our podcast. So yeah, if we

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have feedback, if people like it
or don't, like it, but I

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have an idea for a new theme
song. I want. I'm so excited

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hear I didn't. I did not
know this. I don't here you go

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right right? Yes, what do
you think? I'm sorry, my eyes

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are so rolled up far in my
head I can't see straight. So good

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heavens, I like it. I
don't think we can afford the royalties.

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I'm that little ditty there. This
is for people who don't know what this

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is. This is Hail to the
Victors, which is the University of Michigan

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fight song, which super they've been
doing a fabulous job, even though they

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might might have been cheating a little
bit. No, no cheating, but

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they are going to be playing in
the championship game Monday. Here's what I

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don't like about sports. I mean, I like sports. I like sports

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a lot. I appreciate the effort
and the people work so hard. It's

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sound like such a mom but that
the fact at the end of the season

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they've had literally had a perfect season, that you are going to be sad

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if they lose, and they are
going to be sad if they lose,

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to be sad, but I would, yes, you are, I will

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be sad. In the moment,
yes, I will be, but then

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I will look back afterwards and I
will be like, yeah, it was

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a good season. I was actually
really excited because I thought you were going

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to play me some cool new theme
song and we were going to be able

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to because I'm pretty sure no one
other than you or maybe actually some other

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people will love I love our theme
song, but I am open to changing

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it if people want, so we'll
see. Wow, okay, and then

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you would probably have to find something
else, and that would be the challenge.

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Well, how's your resolution going.
I'm not sure what your resolution was.

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I'm pretty sure it was to be
healthier, which it has been since

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you know, the last five whole
days, and I'm doing great. Yeah,

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how about you. I didn't really
have a resolution, so you were

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just going to stay remain awesome and
so far, so far, so well.

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I think I have in the last
year made some changes, like and

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I feel like I have been healthier
and I've been making better changes. And

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it wasn't like a resolution. It
was just like I'm gonna, you know,

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do X Y and Z and I've
been trying to Yeah, a great

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job. Well, I do have
a snack. I'm ravenous. I'm actually

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not. I'm excited to see because
we had talked about this last night and

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you were like, I don't know
what I have, but I know that

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you are very creative. Yeah,
go ahead. I knew you were going

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to do this. I should have
written it down on a piece of paper.

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Wow. I good thing. I'm
a good thing. I'm hungry.

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I have in front of me three
baby three very thin baby carrots, and

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three pieces of cucumber. I know
we're all trying to cut back a little

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bit of the New Year and everything. No, I have, I have

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actual snacks. I went to the
gas station this morning. I know you

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did because you brought me a there's
a nice big episoda in front of me.

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I brought you the child size child. Yeah. Yeah, So no,

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I have four snacks just in case. Well, I hope this will

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probably be a two parts, not
going to be four parts, is it

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okay? So I'm having a little
PTSD because when we recorded Scott Peterson,

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we really thought it was going to
be two and it ended up being three

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and we were in here for six
hours. It was it was a long

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day. It was great. I
think it turned out really, you know,

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we're proud of the episode, but
it was crazy. Prepare yourself for

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another long day before. I don't
think it'll be I just wanted to be

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safe just in case. I think
it'll be two parts, maybe three,

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but pick a number between one and
four and I'm going to pick four or

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two or four. Four. You
got the bobos, P, B and

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J. Great. That was like
I thought it was gonna be, like

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a little it looks like a crustable
package on behind, all right, sweet

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baked peanut butter oat crust with this
This sounds delicious? Well and again because

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I have the crustal it's has a
it's heavy, it would like break a

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window. Why don't we take a
break and try it? All right?

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Sounds good? What do you think? Not much? What do you think

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it was? All right? I
think if you're on the go and you

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want a little healthy tree, I
like the like the cookie. It's kind

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of like a more like a cookie
than bread, kind of like an oat.

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How dare you call that a cookie? I mean, but it was

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kind of like a thick granola bar. Maybe maybe more like a granola bar.

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But yeah, if you're on the
go, maybe it would be an

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Okay, snack. I have bought
Bobo's. I don't know if they're they're

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muffin bites or something for the kids. But yeah, it's fine. Can

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you pick another door? I hope
we don't have to pick four doors.

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We'll see. Okay, Well,
today is going to be a continuation of

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the Peterson project. You're this great
idea you have. Oh my gosh,

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why you're blaming me for it?
I think it's it's not the worst idea

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ever. It's just odd that three
of the worst people that I've ever heard

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of I'll share the same last name. I have started the Drew Peterson and

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when we're done, we'll have to, you know, quantify who is who

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is the worst? Yeah, but
Drew is, in my opinion, Drew

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is probably the worst. Michael is
probably the least likable. Yeah, Scott.

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I mean Scott's really horrible. So
that tells you something about the other

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two. Yeah, for sure.
Well, I think with Michael we're going

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to talk about this, but I
think there's definitely more of a question of

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his guilt or not than there is
probably for the other two. Yeah,

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and we'll get it. We'll get
into all that. Obviously. I found

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a little mini bombshell last night after
you've gone to bed, and what do

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you mean because you've said something to
me, But I was like, just

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about the sleep, but I said, don't, I can't right now,

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Okay tell me. So it probably
won't be in today's episode, but there's

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a little something that I don't think
you know that is a little it shook

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me a little bit interesting. Well, I know most people, a lot

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of people have watched the Staircase documentary
series that was on Netflix, and there

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was a dramatized version that came out
in twenty twenty two that ruined Colin Firth.

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For me, I love Colin first, but I was like, by

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the end of the Staircase, you
hated Michael Peterson so much that you hate

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Killin Firth. I mean, we
didn't even finish the HBO series because it

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was so similar. It just seemed
like there was no need to watch it.

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And yeah, I really do have
a hard time with Michael Peterson.

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I've heard a lot of people call
him charming, and I'm like, yeah,

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I don't know in what world that's
charming. I don't I don't either.

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On its surface, I think the
case is pretty simple. Michael Peterson

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called nine one one at two forty
am on Sunday, December ninth of two

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thousand and one and frantically reported that
his wife had had an accident. She

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had fallen down the stairs. But
obviously the case is taken on a life

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of its own. It's so complicated. There's so much involved here, and

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so many strong opinions on both sides
of whether Michael is guilty or not.

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I think when we started this whole
Peterson project, we didn't we didn't realize

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how we were getting ourselves much information
there is. Sometimes I get frustrated with

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our podcast because there are people that
can devote, you know, a year

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to a project, and we can't
do that because we put an episode out

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every week. Yeah, we have
done our best on this one. I

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mean you, I was a little
worried about you this week. I really

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didn't see you much because you took
the lead on this one. I did

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a little bit of the of the
legwork, but did you worked really hard.

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It's been a stressful couple of weeks. But I think we're going to

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start by having you read a little
bit of an excerpt from Michael Peterson's book,

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Let Me Give You a little background. In twenty nineteen, Michael Peterson

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wrote two book books. One of
them is called Behind the Staircase and the

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other is called Beyond the Staircase.
We'll get into this later, but all

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the proceeds from these two books were
donated to charity. I didn't read the

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whole book. I read the sample
on Kindle. Here's a little excerpt from

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it. Wilbur and Portia are lethargic
English bulldogs raise their heavy heads to watch,

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but any effort to move was too
much, so they stayed with me,

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also too lethargic to move. It
was a beautiful, magical night,

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with a pool shimmering and stars glistening. I settled contentedly on the chase.

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I was so happy. My life's
so good. I loved my wife,

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I loved my children, I loved
my work. I had just heard that

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a book of mine had been optioned
for a movie. I loved my house,

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I loved my dogs. I wanted
this moment to last forever. That's

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beautiful. So if I had time, I would have read the whole thing.

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But the book was just an airing
of grievances and an attempt at rationalizing

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his action, like he talked about
a lot of people have questioned, well,

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why was he at the poll until
two thirty am? It was December,

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and you and I looked up the
weather and what was the weather that

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night? It was in at that
time, it was in the low fifties,

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like maybe fifty one to fifty four
degrees, So he was wearing shorts

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and a T shirt. And in
the book he talks about how it was

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an uncharacteristically warm December evening nearly sixty
degrees. So you can tell right there

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that the book write in history a
little bit. Yeah, for sure,

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I think that he wanted the public
to kind of say, oh, this

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is just a man who's been through
a lot and he really really loved his

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wife. But it doesn't come off
as that. It comes off as him

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trying to rationalize his behavior, and
it's not the loving tribute to Kathleen that

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she definitely deserved. Yeah, Well, we will dig into Michael's background and

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his because I think like his personality
and just who he is, his character

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is really important to this story,
and I think a lot of we're probably

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going to spend more time on his
background. In some of the anecdotes from

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you know, his first marriage and
things like that. Then maybe some of

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the other podcasts have because I do
think it's it's not necessarily things that are

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admissible in a court of law,
but I think it does get to his

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just his personality, personality, like
he's kind of a strange guy and for

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sure maybe a narcissist, right,
well, probably a narsissy, not a

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psychologist, but yes, he definitely
has a lot of characteristics of a narcissist.

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And that said about Michael, We're
also going to talk about Kathleen's background

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because in so many cases, the
victim gets lost, and I think she's

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been lost a little bit, so
we're going to talk about her background too,

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for sure. So today I think
that's what we're planning on mostly is

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just giving you background before this,
before the crime. Yeah, we'll see

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how far we get. But let's
start with Michael's background. So Michael Iver

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Peterson ivor it's a weird, weird
middle is a nice name, yeah,

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I guess. He was born on
October twenty third, nineteen forty three.

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He was the first child of Eugene
and Eleanor Peterson. Just a month after

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his birth, his father was shipped
overseas to fight in World War Two.

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After his father's return, the family
added two more sons, Bill and John,

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or Jack as he was known,
and a daughter Anne. Eugene ended

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up making a career in the military, which meant that the family moved around

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a lot as Michael grew up.
The family lived at various times in Japan,

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Washington State, Georgia, Kansas,
California, Virginia, Pennsylvania, North

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Carolina, and Copenhagen, Denmark.
That's a lot of places. I know.

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That's really a lot of places.
I often wonder do you think that's

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good for a child to grow up
in all these different places or is it

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bad that they don't have like kind
of roots that they're settled in. I

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think a little bit of both probably
true. When I was researching at Kathleen's

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background, and she traveled around a
little bit too, we really haven't in

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her life, and our kids have
been in the same school district, and

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sometimes I wonder if that's it would
be better to move around and meet new

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friends and be a little more adventurous. Yeah, there's definitely something to that.

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Michael left his family, who were
living in Virginia at the time,

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to attend college at Duke University in
Durham, North Carolina. While at Duke,

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he was incredibly active. When I'm
going to read you the list of

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things he got involved in, but
this just kind of blows my mind,

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like all the things that he did
during college. So he joined the Air

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Force ROTC. He joined a pre
law society called Bench and Bar. He

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was on the staff of the university
newspaper, and he was the editor during

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his senior year. He got involved
in the campus YMCA, student politics,

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the debate team, and the publication
board, which oversaw the newspaper, yearbook

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and campus magazine. He joined the
Sigma new fraternity and was president his senior

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year, along with sitting on the
inter Fraternity Council and the Council of Presidents,

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which consisted of leaders from various student
groups. So yeah, I'd say

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he was pretty busy during his college
years. He graduated in nineteen sixty five

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with a degree in political science.
While back at home during a break,

208
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he met Patricia or Patty Balkman,
who was home on a visit from the

209
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University of Texas in Austin, and
the two started a long distance relationship.

210
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They would end up getting married in
nineteen sixty six. I had seen her

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00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:24.279
referred to as Patty Sue. I
hadn't seen that, but I like it

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00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:30.600
Yatty Sue. Michael started law school
after he graduated, but he left before

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00:14:30.679 --> 00:14:33.960
completing his first year, and then
he got a job in Washington, d

214
00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:39.240
c. As a systems science analyst
for a defense consultant, and that job

215
00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:43.799
sent him to Vietnam to conduct a
study. The war was going on,

216
00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:46.639
of course, and he saw a
lot of corruption and illegal dealings, like,

217
00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:52.000
for example, fudging of daily reports
of those killed in action. So

218
00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:54.399
I think it made him a little
bit cynical about the government and the war

219
00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.799
and things like that. The experience
also made him want to write the Great

220
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:03.519
American novel about the Vietnam War,
much like Hemingway did with A Farewell to

221
00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:07.360
Arms with World War One. But
he decided that to write about it,

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00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:11.120
he needed to really experience the war, not as a consultant but as a

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soldier, and so he enlisted in
the Marines in nineteen sixty eight and was

224
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deployed to Vietnam in nineteen sixty nine, which is pretty amazing. I mean,

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I don't think there were a lot
of people volunteering to go to Vietnam

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in nineteen sixty eight sixty nine.
People were trying to avoid it, but

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00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:31.759
he really wanted the experience. While
he was deployed, Patty moved in with

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00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:35.639
Michael's family, who were living in
Copenhagen, Denmark at that point, and

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00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:39.639
then she got a teaching position with
the Department of Defense at an Air Force

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base in West Germany. In Vietnam, Michael was in charge of about thirty

231
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men. Even though Peterson was against
the war, he had a gung ho

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attitude and he would volunteer his squad
for extra patrols, which caused some resentment

233
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among his men, but over time
he won them over and he earned their

234
00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:04.840
trust and specked. His squad saw
combat and sustained some casualties. Peterson was

235
00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:10.039
awarded a Silver Star for gallantry in
battle, but despite his later claims,

236
00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:12.480
he was not injured in Vietnam and
he did not receive a Purple Star.

237
00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:17.639
Well, he was injured in Vietnam, but not in battle on Vietnam.

238
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He was actually injured while stationed in
Japan after leaving Vietnam, but it was

239
00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:25.360
in a car accident. Yeah,
he was driving a friend home after dinner

240
00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:29.759
when a truck slammed into the side
of his car. Peterson was trapped in

241
00:16:29.799 --> 00:16:33.519
the car for about thirty minutes while
his friend died in the passenger seat next

242
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to him, which is really it's
just horrible to think about. His leg

243
00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:41.399
was shattered and he walked with a
limp. After that, Peterson received an

244
00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:47.399
honorable discharge and a permanent medical disability. Over the next few years, Mike

245
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and Patty lived in Germany, where
Patty continued to teach, but they also

246
00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:55.919
moved back and forth a few times
between Germany and Durham, North Carolina.

247
00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:00.960
Clayton was born in Germany in December
of nineteen seventy four, and then Todd

248
00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:04.720
was born in March of nineteen seventy
six. While they were in Germany,

249
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Patty worked while Michael was basically a
house husband. He worked on his writing

250
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:12.519
and he went to the gym every
day, but he didn't really do a

251
00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:17.160
lot of housework. The house was
usually a mess, and if Patty ever

252
00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:21.279
said anything to him about it,
he would blow up. Friends said they

253
00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:26.279
felt like Patty walked on eggshells around
her husband. Patty had a good friend

254
00:17:26.359 --> 00:17:30.480
named pat Finn, who was another
teacher for the Department of Defense. In

255
00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:33.920
May of nineteen eighty three, Patty
and Mike went to visit Pat and her

256
00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:40.039
husband in Berlin. While staying with
them, Michael stole Pat's debit card while

257
00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:42.880
Pat was in the shower, Michael
rummaged through her drawers to find her pin

258
00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:48.200
and then proceeded to withdraw the maximum
daily amount each of the next four days.

259
00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:52.720
Totally right, one thousand dollars.
That's not okay. No, no,

260
00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:57.640
that's not okay. And it took
pat months to realize what happened because

261
00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:00.759
she and her husband went back to
the States for a few months after their

262
00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:06.680
visit and she didn't find out about
the theft until she returned, and when

263
00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:11.079
she mapped back the dates of the
withdrawals, she realized it was right at

264
00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:15.160
the time when Michael and Patty came
to visit. And she also realized that

265
00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:18.880
anytime that Michael and Patty visited things
would end up missing, generally smaller items

266
00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:23.240
without a lot of value. So
Pat called Michael and confronted him, and

267
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:29.079
he confessed to stealing the thousand dollars
and promised to pay her back, although

268
00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:32.759
he only made two partial payments and
never reimbursed her. For the entirety.

269
00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:34.759
It's horrible. I know. That's
why I think like some of these stories.

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00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:37.960
I know they're a little bit anecdotal, maybe a little bit hearsay,

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00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:41.799
Right, this is just Pap Finn
telling this story. But I do think

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00:18:41.839 --> 00:18:45.720
it's kind of like relevant to Michael's
character and how old is he at this

273
00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:49.839
point. He's probably thirty ish.
I guess he would have been around forty

274
00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:55.039
at this time. So he was
an adult, should be a responsible adult,

275
00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:57.839
and he was. He had some
sort of disability. He was receiving

276
00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:02.119
them from the military each month.
Yeah, I don't know how much that

277
00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:06.359
was, but yeah, I think
he was receiving disability payments. Also,

278
00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:11.200
while in Germany, Michael and Patty
became good friends with George and Liz Ratliffe.

279
00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:15.039
Liz worked with Patty as a teacher
for the Department of Defense, and

280
00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:18.119
George was a captain in the Air
Force. Liz grew up in Rhode Island

281
00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:23.200
and fun fact, she used to
babysit for Peter and Bobby Fairley over there.

282
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:29.160
It would go on to fame by
making movies like Dumb and Dumber and

283
00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:33.599
There's Something about Mary. Liz was
musically talented and she really liked to sing

284
00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:38.920
at coffeehouses both during and after college. Liz and George had two daughters,

285
00:19:38.920 --> 00:19:41.799
Margaret, who was born near the
end of nineteen eighty one, and then

286
00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:47.599
Martha just thirteen months later. In
early nineteen eighty three, Liz had a

287
00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:52.799
blood disorder called von Willebrand's disease,
where blood doesn't clop properly. It can

288
00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:56.319
cause complications during childbirth, but luckily
Liz's case was mild and didn't cause any

289
00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:02.160
issues during either Margaret's or Martha's birth. It's a less severe type of hemophelia.

290
00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:06.240
Correct. I believe that is correct. I'm not a doctor, but

291
00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:11.319
I believe you're right now, Okay, I googled it is yeah. In

292
00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:15.000
October of nineteen eighty three, George
died mysteriously while on a secret mission at

293
00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:19.599
an unknown location. His roommate during
the mission found him dead in his bunk.

294
00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:25.119
The autopsy didn't uncover any reason for
his death, and the toxicology report

295
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:29.359
was clean. His cause of death
was listed as unknown, along with the

296
00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:33.160
location of his death, which was
classified. After his death, Liz went

297
00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:37.680
into a deep depression, making it
challenging for her to keep working while also

298
00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:42.759
raising two small children. Michael jumped
in to help her manage her household finances,

299
00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:48.240
including drafting a new will for her
that named he and Patty as guardians

300
00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:52.799
for Margaret and Martha in case anything
happened to Liz. Yeah, and it

301
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:56.160
actually this came up in the trial
later that Liz's sister looked at the will

302
00:20:56.240 --> 00:21:02.279
and the handwriting was definitely not Liz's
handwriting, because Liz was left handed and

303
00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:04.960
wrote with a backwards slant, and
the writing was basically the opposite of the

304
00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:11.079
wheel. I had thought that that
Liz and what was her husband's name,

305
00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:17.599
George, that they had written the
will is misreported in some places, and

306
00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:21.960
as you probably already know, something
did happen to Liz. On Sunday,

307
00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:26.359
November twenty fourth of nineteen eighty five, Liz and her girls had dinner with

308
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:30.480
Michael, Paddy, and their boys. After dinner, Michael walked Liz,

309
00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:33.759
Margaret, and Martha down the street
to their home. He helped Liz get

310
00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:37.920
the girls ready for bed, and
once they were asleep, Liz drove her

311
00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:41.440
car to a mechanic, with Michael
following her and then giving her a ride

312
00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:45.039
back home. Wait they left the
girls home alone. I think they were

313
00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:45.799
in bed, but yeah, I
think they did. I don't know how

314
00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:48.400
far it was to the mechanic,
but they probably were like, yeah,

315
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:53.680
they're sleeping whatever, okay. He
then after they got back, he took

316
00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:57.319
Liz's trash out for pick up the
next morning before he headed back home to

317
00:21:57.400 --> 00:22:00.920
Patty and the boys. At some
point in the evening. And I've seen

318
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:04.839
two different reports. I'm not sure
which one is accurate. Here one said

319
00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:10.920
ten pm and the other said twelve
fifty am. Liz's neighbor said that she

320
00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:14.960
heard a door slam and looked out
her window to see Michael leaving Liz's home

321
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:18.480
in a hurry on Monday morning.
The next morning, the children's nanny,

322
00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:22.519
Barbara, showed up around seven to
fifteen am as usual, to find Liz

323
00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:27.039
at the bottom of the stairs dead. There have been some differing accounts of

324
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:30.240
the scene, but the nanny and
a neighbor named Amy Beth, who came

325
00:22:30.279 --> 00:22:33.240
to the scene, both later testified
that there was a lot of blood on

326
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:37.240
the walls and the floor. Amy
Beth, who was nearly six feet tall,

327
00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:41.160
later said that at the top of
the stairs the blood was higher on

328
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:45.119
the wall than she could reach.
But again, I've heard different things about

329
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:48.000
the scene of Elizabeth's death as well. I've heard that there wasn't that much

330
00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:52.160
blood, and I've heard other people
say there was a lot. So it's

331
00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:56.960
a little frustrating trying to get to
the truth of that one. It's just

332
00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:00.799
so wild that two women in Michael's
white life I've died at the bottom of

333
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:07.640
a staircase. He gets zero points
for originality. What are the odds?

334
00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:12.079
Eh? So Barbara went and got
the Peterson's and soon German police and EMTs

335
00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:17.440
arrived. Michael told anyone who would
listen that Liz had a cerebral hemorrhage and

336
00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:22.599
fell down the stairs. Wait after
the autopsy or no before when people were

337
00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:26.000
at the scene. I've read that
Michael was basically telling people she had a

338
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:32.279
cerebral hemorrhage. Hmm. Obviously he
would not know that. You wouldn't think

339
00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:37.160
he would be qualified. Liz's body
was taken to Frankfurt for an autopsy under

340
00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:41.039
US Army supervision. The base there
had four staff pathologists, but none of

341
00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:45.799
them was a forensic pathologist, and
none had any experience doing an autopsy where

342
00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:51.000
foul play was suspected. The final
report of the autopsy said that the cause

343
00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:56.440
of death was sarahbellar hemorrhage complicated by
von Willebrand's disease. Liz had complained of

344
00:23:56.519 --> 00:24:00.720
bad headaches in the days before her
death, so that concl usion might make

345
00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:04.480
sense. Additionally, Patty later said
that she saw the German medical examiner take

346
00:24:04.519 --> 00:24:08.480
a spinal tap and that the contents
did not look clear, which would also

347
00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:14.880
indicate a cerebral hemorrhage. Michael years
later said that she had a stroke.

348
00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:19.200
Okay, but that wasn't def I
think that could be consistent with a sarabellar

349
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:22.079
hemorrhage, right, it sounds like
it. Yeah, I believe so.

350
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:26.119
I think a sarabellar hemorrhage, as
according to Google, could be caused by

351
00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:30.200
a stroke, or it could be
caused by trauma. Yeah. Interesting,

352
00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:34.880
And you didn't mention this earlier.
But she was forty one and George was

353
00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:40.000
thirty three. Yes, and after
his I think that she thought that she

354
00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:44.160
wasn't going to marry and she really
loved him, and she was so happy

355
00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:47.920
to have these two children because she
was an older mom, especially at that

356
00:24:48.039 --> 00:24:52.039
time, and so after his death, she was devastated, and that's why

357
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:56.759
she had to have a nanny because
she was having a hard time caring for

358
00:24:56.799 --> 00:25:00.680
the kids. And Michael did step
up, yeah, with the kids,

359
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:03.039
and they were very close. Yeah, I think it was really hard for

360
00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:06.119
her. She was definitely in a
depression and I think just going to work

361
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:08.160
every day was all she could really, you know, kind of handle in

362
00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:12.279
that state. So I think having
Barbara was really helpful for her, and

363
00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:17.960
I think, yeah, Michael also
helped. Barbara and others did not believe

364
00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:21.559
the conclusion. Barbara would tell everyone
that she knew that there was more to

365
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:26.160
Liz's death. She later testified in
Michael's trial that Elizabeth always laid out breakfast

366
00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:30.799
settings for her daughters before she went
to bed at night, and no settings

367
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:33.559
had been laid out when her body
was found on Monday morning, indicating that

368
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:38.759
she probably died the night before.
Barbara also testified that Elizabeth was wearing snow

369
00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:41.720
boots when her body was found and
all the lights were on, again,

370
00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:47.079
suggesting that she died on Sunday night, not Monday morning. She was wearing

371
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:49.680
snow boots. Yes, I think
if she was wearing snow boots, that

372
00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:55.079
definitely a point points the finger at
Michael a little bit more because she and

373
00:25:55.240 --> 00:25:59.200
Michael had just gotten back, you
know, Sunday night, from taking her

374
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:03.519
car to the mechanic. So if
he did something to her, then it

375
00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:06.119
was right when they got back,
before she took off her boot, her

376
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:08.720
boots. You probably don't know this, but were the stairs wooden stairs?

377
00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:14.039
I believe they were wooden stairs.
Yes, so if her snow boots were

378
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:18.240
wet, she also could have slipped
on the stairs. True, and her

379
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:22.240
the position of her body was just
crumpled at the bottom of the stairs.

380
00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:27.559
It wasn't necessarily like Kathleen's body was
how she was. Kathleen was sitting up.

381
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:30.759
Yeah, I don't think so.
I think it was more like crumpled

382
00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:33.839
up a little bit. I saw
Patty, Michael's wife at the time she

383
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:38.880
re enacted it on the Staircase documentary
where she kind of laid down on the

384
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:44.839
stairs where in the position that she
had said that Liz was in, and

385
00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:47.680
it was kind of more like,
yeah, just sort of crumpled up at

386
00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:52.119
the bottom step. Very sad,
Yeah, for sure. Pat Finn,

387
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:56.319
Patty's friend that Michael had stolen from, was also suspicious when she heard the

388
00:26:56.359 --> 00:27:00.599
news. She remembered that Michael would
constantly make make negative remarks about Liz,

389
00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:04.039
almost to the point where Pat felt
like he was obsessed with her. Somehow,

390
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:10.440
She actually called the Criminal Investigation Division
of the Military Police and shared her

391
00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:14.119
suspicions that Michael was involved in Liz's
death, but they never followed up.

392
00:27:15.079 --> 00:27:18.359
What do you think the extent of
their relationship was? Were they having an

393
00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:21.720
affair which I know you don't know
the answer to. I definitely do not

394
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:23.920
know the answer to. But more
than one person, So Pat Finn was

395
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:29.640
one, and then Michael's sister Anne
came to visit them for an extended period

396
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:32.799
while they were in Germany, and
both of them said that he was like

397
00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:36.000
obsessed, like he would talk about
Liz all the time, but it wasn't

398
00:27:36.039 --> 00:27:37.799
like he would talk about her in
a positive way. It was like negative

399
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:41.200
like she's crazy, or she's dumb, or she doesn't know how to manage

400
00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:45.480
her household or things like that,
and so it's yeah, I don't know

401
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:48.799
the nature of their relationship, but
there was definitely something. So it could

402
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:53.160
have been like a brother sister relationship, could have been yeah, or or

403
00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:56.880
they might have been having an affair. You know, we just don't know.

404
00:27:56.799 --> 00:28:02.599
Michael seems like a gossipy type of
her. He does. Many people

405
00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:07.160
will argue vociferously that Elizabeth's death was
an accident. It was ruled an accident

406
00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:11.759
at the time, and the autopsy
said it was an accident. I personally

407
00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:15.359
am suspicious of that conclusion, only
because of what happened afterwards. In the

408
00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:21.160
odds of two people close to you
dying from falling down the stairs is just

409
00:28:21.200 --> 00:28:25.839
so astronomical. You're not alone.
But at the same time, I do,

410
00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:27.640
I do look back and I think, well, what would what would

411
00:28:27.640 --> 00:28:32.880
have been his motive of killing Elizabeth. It wasn't money, because he did

412
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:34.960
get He did get money from her
estate to help with the children, but

413
00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:38.559
it wasn't a huge amount. I
think it was valid. Then he had

414
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:41.799
two extra children to take care of, yeah, exactly, so it wasn't

415
00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:47.200
definitely wasn't money. If he did
do it. I always thought, if

416
00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:48.920
he did do it, it was
a crime of passion. It was something

417
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:52.720
a spur of the moment that you
know, maybe they had been up in

418
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:56.839
her bedroom and you know, they
had an argument and he pushed her down

419
00:28:56.839 --> 00:29:02.160
the stairs. Yeah, could be
unfortunately, no with that, why don't

420
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:12.440
we take a quick break. According
to the terms of Elizabeth's will, Michael

421
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:17.279
and Patty now became the legal guardians
of Margaret, who was around four years

422
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:19.759
old, and Martha, who was
not quite two. I thought they were

423
00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:23.279
younger, like one of them wasn't
even a year old. Yeah, I

424
00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:27.599
have seen different stories that said they
were younger, and I actually went back

425
00:29:27.640 --> 00:29:33.839
and checked the dates to verify,
and I believe it is correct that Margaret

426
00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:37.640
was almost four and Martha was almost
three. Still very or almost two,

427
00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:41.839
I'm sorry, almost two, so
yeah, still very young. Like a

428
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.240
lot of cases that get this famous
and this big, I think there's a

429
00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:48.759
lot of reporting that or facts that
get stated, maybe incorrectly, and then

430
00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:51.880
they get repeated over and over and
over again, and they just, you

431
00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:56.480
know, almost become like fact,
even when they're wrong. With Michael and

432
00:29:56.519 --> 00:30:00.599
Patty taking custody of the girls,
the girls, nanny Barbara stay involved in

433
00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:03.359
their lives for a period of time
after that, and she got to know

434
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:07.039
Michael and Patty, who she hadn't
known very well before. She said that

435
00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:11.160
Michael could be aggressive, mean,
and impatient, and that he displayed clear

436
00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:15.720
favoritism toward Margaret. She reported that
at least twice she saw Martha with bruises

437
00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:21.680
and once confronted Michael about it.
Michael told Barbara that Martha had been a

438
00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:25.480
bad, bad girl and she needed
to learn manners. He said that he

439
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:29.200
had rubbed Martha's nose in the carpet
like a dog when she had an accident.

440
00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:33.400
Oh God, again, hearsay.
I know it's one person saying this,

441
00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:37.240
but it's just did she make up
exactly? And she really cared for

442
00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:41.279
the girls, I think as well. In the summer of nineteen eighty six,

443
00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:45.759
Michael left Martha and Rhode Island with
her aunt and uncle, Margaret and

444
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.720
Jim Blair, and then he traveled
to Texas to leave Margaret with her dad's

445
00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:53.200
family while he and Patty got settled
in Durham, North Carolina. These poor

446
00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:57.000
little girls, yeah, I don't
think we talk about that, and it's

447
00:30:57.039 --> 00:31:00.799
been talked about enough, like the
trauma that they had on their lives.

448
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:04.400
Yeah, and there's more to come
as well. So Michael asked the Blairs

449
00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:08.440
at that point whether they would take
Martha permanently. They said they were happy

450
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:11.559
to, but they asked what about
Margaret. The two girls had been through

451
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:15.480
so much and they know they only
had each other in terms of close family.

452
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:18.880
But Michael would not agree to give
both girls up to the Blairs,

453
00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:23.200
and so they declined his offer to
take Martha because they thought the girls should

454
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:29.640
stay together. Absolutely of course,
right then, in nineteen eighty eight,

455
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:33.640
Patty told Michael that a wealthy older
couple in Germany wanted to adopt the girls.

456
00:31:34.119 --> 00:31:37.440
At first, Michael refused to let
them go, but Patty convinced him.

457
00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:41.640
They put the girls, who were
seven and five at the time,

458
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:45.279
on a plane to Germany by themselves
to be picked up by the couple,

459
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:51.960
which again just horrible. Yeah,
and the couple that adopted them or were

460
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:56.160
going to adopt them didn't speak much
English, which made things difficult. And

461
00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:59.640
after only a week they changed their
mind about adopting the girls, and the

462
00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:05.400
girls flew back to North Carolina.
So agreed they were. They went through

463
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:07.640
a lot, like they just went
through a lot with everything. It's such

464
00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:15.279
an impressionable age when you kids need
a stable home, and yeah, they

465
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:20.160
did not have it. Someone to
bond too. And it sounds like Patty

466
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:22.720
wasn't the warm and fuzzy mom that
they probably needed at that time. I

467
00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:25.359
don't think so, and I don't
think she was ever really on board with

468
00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:31.119
taking custody of the kids. I
think that was more Michael's thing. In

469
00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:36.279
nineteen ninety, Margaret and Martha spent
the summer with their aunt and uncle in

470
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:39.920
Rhode Island. Again. After returning, Margaret tattled on Martha for not saying

471
00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:44.519
her good night prayers, and Michael
fired off an angry letter to their aunt.

472
00:32:44.839 --> 00:32:46.799
He said, quote, the girls
had a terrific time with you,

473
00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:51.000
and I thank you very much.
My only concern is with the heavy dose

474
00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:54.839
of religion that they, Margaret in
particular, brought back. It borders slightly

475
00:32:54.880 --> 00:33:00.319
on fundamentalist fanaticism that Liz was utterly
opposed to. And apparently their aunt had

476
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:04.960
again expressed a desire to adopt the
two girls, because in his letter he

477
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:08.279
also said quote, they absolutely need
me. Believe me, if I thought

478
00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:12.000
that it would be better for Martha
and Margaret to live with you, or

479
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:15.440
that you could better raise them,
than I would step aside. But deep

480
00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:17.200
in my heart, I believe that
I am the best person to mold and

481
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:24.519
guide them and love them too.
Yikes. Around that time, Michael and

482
00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:30.000
Patty moved the family back to Germany, but soon after Michael returned to Durham

483
00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:34.519
with Martha and Margaret, leaving the
boys with their mother in Germany. At

484
00:33:34.519 --> 00:33:37.359
the end of the nineteen ninety one
school year, Patty came back to the

485
00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:40.480
States with Clayton and Todd, and
she drove Margaret and Martha up to Rhode

486
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:45.160
Island again for the summer. When
she dropped them off at their aunt Margaret's

487
00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:49.720
house, Patty told her that she
and Michael were separating, and again offered

488
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:52.440
for the Blairs to permanently adopt the
girls in order to provide them with a

489
00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:58.640
more stable home environment. Again,
the Blairs were delighted, but Michael called

490
00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:01.240
them angrily in augustying that he had
no idea that Patty told them that they

491
00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:05.799
could adopt the girls. He said
it was his decision and he was coming

492
00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:08.800
to Rhode Island and would talk to
the girls and let them decide. By

493
00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:13.320
this point he was living with Kathleen
and her daughter Caitlin, who will talk

494
00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:17.159
about in a minute. But he
drove to Rhode Island with Kathleen and Caitlyn

495
00:34:17.239 --> 00:34:21.840
and sat down with Margaret and Martha, saying, I leave this choice up

496
00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:23.960
to you. But I'm telling you
that your mother never, never wanted you

497
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:28.519
to live with your aunt Margaret never. But I'm leaving the decision to you.

498
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:30.559
Wait, how old are they?
They were nine and eight at this

499
00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:36.239
time, and they said they wanted
to live in Durham with Michael, Kathleen,

500
00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:40.559
and Caitlyn, who they were actually
friends with Caitlin as well. Before

501
00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:45.280
we talk about Kathleen, I wanted
to spend just a minute talking about Michael's

502
00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:49.280
writing career. I think a lot
of people assume that he either wasn't a

503
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:52.320
very good writer or wasn't a very
successful writer. But neither of those things

504
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:58.199
is actually true. He was quite
successful as an author, both financially and

505
00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:02.079
critically. His His first book,
The Immortal Dragon, was published in July

506
00:35:02.199 --> 00:35:07.199
of nineteen eighty three. It was
a five hundred and twenty seven page novel

507
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:12.480
set in nineteenth century France and Vietnam. Have you read it? I was

508
00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:15.960
going to get a sample of it, but I didn't. I ran out

509
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:20.400
of time. It was described as
a saga of love, lust, courage,

510
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:24.000
and treachery. One review called it
quote beautifully crafted work, rich with

511
00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:30.079
history and characters you care for unquote
His second book, A Time of War,

512
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:34.639
was released in nineteen ninety. For
it, he received in advance of

513
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:38.119
six hundred thousand dollars and NBC acquired
an option on the book, although I

514
00:35:38.119 --> 00:35:42.760
don't believe they ever made anything out
of it. This was his epic,

515
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:45.960
five hundred and eighty page Vietnam war
novel, and it made it onto the

516
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:51.880
New York Times bestseller list. One
review said, quote A Time of War

517
00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:55.280
ranks with the best of novels dealing
with the war in Vietnam. I did

518
00:35:55.320 --> 00:36:00.880
read a portion of Michael's twenty nineteen
book Behind the Staircase, and I would

519
00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:06.360
call well written. Yeah, he
was trying to rationalize his behavior after the

520
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:08.559
incidents with Kathleen. But I mean, yeah, he was a good writer,

521
00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:10.519
though he isn't Okay, Yeah,
he's a pretty good writer. I'd

522
00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:15.000
say. He got an advance of
four hundred and fifty thousand dollars for his

523
00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:17.519
third book, which would end up
being called A Bitter Piece, published in

524
00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:22.239
nineteen ninety six. Again it was
about Vietnam, and again it was fairly

525
00:36:22.280 --> 00:36:24.840
well reviewed. He also a lot
of money, and that was in White

526
00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:30.440
Year, Yeah, in nineteen ninety
six, So yeah, significantly more now,

527
00:36:30.679 --> 00:36:32.199
Yeah, for sure. And the
way an advance works, you get

528
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:37.639
an advance, but then if you're
the number of copies sold exceeds a certain

529
00:36:37.639 --> 00:36:42.159
amount, then you get you know, kickbacks from that too. Yeah.

530
00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:44.920
And I never read how much money
he made in total the books. I

531
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:46.559
just read about the advances, so
I don't know if he also got more

532
00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:52.440
money after that. He also collaborated
on a book published in nineteen ninety eight

533
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:55.840
called Charlie two Shoes and the Marines
of Love Company. This was a true

534
00:36:55.880 --> 00:37:01.440
story about a Chinese man nicknamed Charlie
Twoshoes by some US Marines who had befriended

535
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:07.119
him in nineteen forty five. When
the Communists took over in nineteen forty nine

536
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:10.400
and the Marines pulled out, Charlie
spent seventeen of the next thirty five years

537
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:15.039
as a political prisoner because of his
close relationship with the Marines, and when

538
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:19.519
the soldiers learned of his plight,
they lobbied the US Congress to bring him

539
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:22.280
to the US. Well, I'm
going to tell you a little bit about

540
00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:27.880
eighteen ten Cedar Street, the home
that Peterson family lived in. It was

541
00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:31.760
built in nineteen forty and Michael purchased
the sixth bath five bedroom home in nineteen

542
00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:37.760
ninety three for six hundred thousand dollars
after he received one of those large book

543
00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:43.079
advances. It is located within the
historic Forest Hills neighborhood in Durham, North

544
00:37:43.079 --> 00:37:45.400
Carolina, and at the time,
I don't know if this still stands,

545
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:51.679
it was the largest residential property in
all of Durham, which tells you something

546
00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:54.760
about again about Michael's personality. I
think he just wanted the best in the

547
00:37:54.800 --> 00:38:01.360
biggest house. He was more about
his reputation and his appearance and maybe his

548
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:07.920
substance sometimes. The house is about
ten thousand square feet, which is pretty

549
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:14.000
sizeable, pretty big house. There
are fourteen rooms, five bedrooms and six

550
00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:19.800
bathrooms, four chimneys, two staircases, a grand staircase in the front of

551
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:23.280
the house, and an old dark
staircase in the rear of the house that

552
00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:29.639
was probably used for servants because it's
off the kitchen. I was looking at

553
00:38:29.639 --> 00:38:34.119
some pictures on Zilla and the grand
staircases. Really it's amazing and it's really

554
00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:38.400
beautiful. It's very Yeah, it's
very grand, but the house has been

555
00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:43.039
The pictures that you saw are different
than what it looked like that. I'm

556
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:47.000
not sure. I know the house
has been redone. There's an outdoor pool,

557
00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:52.920
and it sits on three and a
half wooded acres. Among the fourteen

558
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:57.320
rooms are a library, a study, a game room, an exercise room.

559
00:38:58.280 --> 00:39:00.719
Kathleen will talk about in a minute. She filled the home with thousands

560
00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:06.840
of dollars of antiques, art and
collectibles. Petersons really loved their home and

561
00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:10.000
they were really proud of it.
After his conviction, the house was listed

562
00:39:10.039 --> 00:39:15.440
at one point one seventy five million
dollars and a state sale was held at

563
00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:19.480
the house and throngs of people paid
twenty dollars to get a peek at the

564
00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:22.800
Peterson home and bid on their belongings, which is always such a weird Like

565
00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:27.639
it happened more recently with the Murdas. It just it turned into more like

566
00:39:27.639 --> 00:39:30.119
a tourist attraction. Then well,
I mean the sale was like it was

567
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:35.199
a three day sale, but you
know how people like camped out and I

568
00:39:35.480 --> 00:39:38.920
believe a few thousand people went through
the house that day, which I definitely

569
00:39:38.920 --> 00:39:42.320
would have paid twenty oh yeah,
totally to see the house. I can

570
00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:45.639
only imagine like people were like grouped
grouped at the staircase, you know,

571
00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:51.719
trying to solve the crime. The
proceeds of this state sale were split among

572
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:54.920
the five children. The price on
the house was slashed several times, eventually

573
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:59.559
selling in the summer of two thousand
and four for six hundred and forty thousand

574
00:39:59.559 --> 00:40:05.000
dollars. The buyer renovated the home
and relisted it for one point nine million

575
00:40:05.039 --> 00:40:07.960
dollars in twenty twenty. According to
zillo dot Com, it is valued at

576
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:14.360
more than three million dollars today.
Renowned scholar, filmmaker, professor, and

577
00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:19.239
host of the PBS series Finding Your
Roots, Henry Lewis Gates Junior owned the

578
00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:22.559
home while he was teaching at Duke
University before he moved on to Harvard and

579
00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:28.599
the nineteen ninety film Handmaid's Tale was
partially filmed at the house on Cedar Street,

580
00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:31.639
which is kind of cool that it
was used as the commander's house.

581
00:40:32.199 --> 00:40:37.960
The exterior of the house is also
used, as is the staircase in that

582
00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:42.199
film, which makes me want to
go watch the film. But when we

583
00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:45.840
went to Toronto, we went to
Cassa Loma, and there are so many

584
00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:52.400
a lot of movies. It's so
funny because It made me realize you can

585
00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:55.519
frame any room and make it look
like part of a palace or whatever.

586
00:40:55.679 --> 00:41:00.280
Yeah, all right, Should we
talk about Kathleen now, Yes, Like

587
00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:06.599
we said, Kathleen and her history
gets lost in this story sometimes because she

588
00:41:06.679 --> 00:41:13.000
was a remarkable woman. John Franklin
Hunt owned a successful construction company in New

589
00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:15.360
York when he met and fell in
love with the secretary more than twenty years

590
00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:21.599
his junior, Veronica Anne Hogan.
The couple married in nineteen forty six and

591
00:41:21.800 --> 00:41:24.039
moved to Saint Louis, where they
had their first child, Stephen, in

592
00:41:24.119 --> 00:41:30.480
nineteen fifty one. The family moved
to Greensboro, North Carolina, before Kathleen

593
00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:36.400
Kathy Morris Hunt was born in February
of nineteen fifty three. They moved again

594
00:41:36.599 --> 00:41:42.800
in nineteen fifty five to Lancaster,
Pennsylvania, where Candace and Laurie were born.

595
00:41:43.599 --> 00:41:46.159
John was sixty three years old by
the time his last daughter was born.

596
00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:52.840
Wow. Yeah. John and Veronica
were proponents of education and being well

597
00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:57.599
read. Their home was filled with
stacks of books. Kathy showed promise from

598
00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:01.400
an early age. She was voted
Girl of the Year in seventh grade and

599
00:42:01.480 --> 00:42:07.760
won the title of Ancaster lasso I
think was a pretty big honor. In

600
00:42:07.880 --> 00:42:12.639
high school, she was president of
the debate club, and remember Michael was

601
00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:16.880
in the debate. She played on
the tennis team and was editor of the

602
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:20.760
school magazine, so you can see. And Michael was also editor of a

603
00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:22.880
magazine of his I think it was
his college magazine, but lat in common.

604
00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:29.559
She graduated first in her high school
class. In nineteen seventy one,

605
00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:34.800
Kathy was the first woman ever admitted
to the Duke University's College of Engineering.

606
00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:38.440
That's amazing, It's very cool.
She thrived at Duke, where she dropped

607
00:42:38.679 --> 00:42:45.440
the diminutive form of her name and
became Kathleen. She met her first husband,

608
00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:49.480
Fred Atwater in a physics class.
He was a grad student and teaching

609
00:42:49.480 --> 00:42:53.440
assistant. They married after Kathleen graduated
from Duke in nineteen seventy five with a

610
00:42:53.480 --> 00:42:58.960
Bachelor of Science degree in civil engineering. She and Fred married that year in

611
00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:04.079
August in a private ceremony with only
a few friends present. After their marriage,

612
00:43:04.119 --> 00:43:07.320
Fred continued his studies at Duke,
working towards his doctorate in physics,

613
00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:13.719
while Kathleen worked on a master's degree
in civil engineering. Fred finished his doctorate

614
00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:17.440
and accepted a job at that John
Hopkins Applied Physics Lab, which required the

615
00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:22.639
couple to move to Columbia, Maryland. Kathleen finished her master's thesis and began

616
00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:29.119
work at Baltimore Air Quoyle Pritchard,
working on the construction and repair of cooling

617
00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:32.679
towers and power plants. In nineteen
eighty one, after years of trying to

618
00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:37.719
conceive, Kathleen became pregnant. Kathleen's
career was thriving, but she was most

619
00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:43.360
proud of becoming a mother to Caitlin
Veronica Atwater, who was born on April

620
00:43:43.400 --> 00:43:47.400
twenty seventh, nineteen eighty two.
Kathleen doted on Caitlin like her mother had

621
00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:52.360
on her. She focused on providing
her with a good education and an enriched

622
00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:57.840
childhood filled with travel, art and
culture. In nineteen eighty six, the

623
00:43:57.840 --> 00:44:00.599
Atwaters decided to move back to Durham, North Carolina, when Fred received a

624
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:06.480
job offer from GTE. They loved
their college years there and were excited to

625
00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:12.400
move back. They settled in the
upscale historic Forest Hills neighborhood. Does that

626
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:15.480
sound familiar? It sure does.
Kathleen took a break from her career to

627
00:44:15.480 --> 00:44:21.280
get settled in their new home and
enjoy some time with her daughter. Kathleen's

628
00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:23.679
mother, Veronica, now a widow, loved to spend time with her daughter

629
00:44:23.719 --> 00:44:30.679
and granddaughter. In June nineteen eighty
seven, Kathleen began working at Northern Telecom,

630
00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:36.079
which later became Nortel, where she
worked until her death. She was

631
00:44:36.199 --> 00:44:40.519
rapidly promoted due to her ambition,
intelligence, and competence. Kathleen and Fred's

632
00:44:40.519 --> 00:44:45.760
marriage crumbled when he began a relationship
with a younger female colleague. It began

633
00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:51.760
as a mentorship but quickly evolved into
a romantic relationship, ending his marriage to

634
00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:57.360
Kathleen. Despite her best efforts to
keep her family together. After the divorce,

635
00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:00.599
Fred continued to play an important role
in Caitlyn's life. Both her parents

636
00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:05.559
were very devoted to her. Caitlyn
was a bright, sensitive, and inquisitive

637
00:45:05.639 --> 00:45:08.400
child, but she had a hard
time making friends. Kathleen sought out play

638
00:45:08.440 --> 00:45:13.440
dates for her in the Forest Hills
neighborhood where they lived. Margaret and Martha

639
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:17.079
Peterson were similar in age to Caitlin, and they soon became really good friends,

640
00:45:17.079 --> 00:45:22.119
playing Barbie and having adventures together.
Michael Peterson and his wife Patty were

641
00:45:22.119 --> 00:45:27.400
going through a difficult time after she
had returned to Germany to teach, and

642
00:45:28.280 --> 00:45:32.960
she had brought Clayton and Todd with
her. Michael and Kathleen became close friends,

643
00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:38.159
confiding in each other about their marital
woes and eventually began dating. Michael

644
00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:44.079
and Patty divorced in nineteen eighty seven, and Kathleen and Caitlyn moved into the

645
00:45:44.119 --> 00:45:50.199
mansion in eighteen ten Cedars Street in
nineteen eighty nine, but they did not

646
00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:55.199
marry until nineteen ninety seven. Kathleen
had always wanted more children and was overjoyed

647
00:45:55.719 --> 00:46:00.519
to gain two more daughters and Martha
and Margaret. Eventually, Clayton and Todd

648
00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:04.840
moved into the house on Cedar Street
too, but by that time I think

649
00:46:04.840 --> 00:46:07.400
they were kind of college aged,
is that correct? I think that is

650
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:12.800
true. They were a happy family, and Kathleen embraced them all and treated

651
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:15.880
them like her own. They all
loved her very much, and I think

652
00:46:15.880 --> 00:46:22.039
that's apparent if you've watched The Staircase. Kathleen loved hosting parties, receptions and

653
00:46:22.119 --> 00:46:25.559
fundraising galas supporting the arts. She
and Michael were at the center of the

654
00:46:25.639 --> 00:46:30.840
Durham social scene and never missed a
Black tieh event. She was quote the

655
00:46:31.079 --> 00:46:37.079
Martha Stewart of Durham as the society
columnist for the local newspaper once said she

656
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:43.400
was active on the Arts Council and
the Historic Preservation Society. She was known

657
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:49.000
as the queen of clean and organization
and could make a gourmet meal for fifty

658
00:46:49.039 --> 00:46:52.480
with little to no notice. I've
read that she would like they would have

659
00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:57.599
people over to the house and she
would always cook herself rather than Yeah,

660
00:46:57.639 --> 00:47:02.440
she did it herself. And by
all accounts, Michael and Kathleen adored each

661
00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:07.440
other. They enjoyed spending time together. They really had a they had a

662
00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:13.199
healthy marriage by all accounts. Yeah, Kathleen was a fabulous step mom,

663
00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:15.719
which is a really hard role to
fill, so I think she might.

664
00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:20.440
She obviously was an exceptional woman.
Yeah, She's very loving, lovely person

665
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:23.719
and had had a lot going for
both in terms of her career and her

666
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:28.480
intelligence, but also as a loving, kind of carrying mother and wife m

667
00:47:28.519 --> 00:47:32.000
HM. In the months before her
death, that Peterson's became empty nesters,

668
00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:37.400
and they celebrated with a huge party
in early September, probably right before nine

669
00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:44.599
to eleven. As the crowd dwindled, the remaining partygoers became increasingly intoxicated and

670
00:47:44.840 --> 00:47:47.320
inhibitions were lowered. I know you
think I'm going to talk about a key

671
00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:52.280
party here, but I'm not.
Several people jumped into the pool, Kathleen

672
00:47:52.320 --> 00:47:57.480
among them. Unfortunately, she dove
into the shallow end of the pool,

673
00:47:57.719 --> 00:48:01.800
resulting in a pretty bad head and
neck injury that plagued Kathleen until her death.

674
00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:07.679
She frequently was seen wearing a neck
brace, and she had been taking

675
00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:14.239
muscle relaxers and valuum to help her
through the pain. Okay, so Kathleen

676
00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:16.320
was forty eight and she still knew
how to have a good time. I'll

677
00:48:16.360 --> 00:48:21.239
say I would have to close their
blinds because you keep looking out the windows.

678
00:48:21.239 --> 00:48:23.119
There's a lot of distractions, a
lot of things going on in the

679
00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:30.880
neighborhood, the mail carrier delivering our
mail. I'm sorry, I'll try to

680
00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:35.000
pay closer attention. All right,
you're usually laser focused. I know.

681
00:48:36.920 --> 00:48:39.679
I want to share one thing that
happened involving Michael and Patty's son, Clayton

682
00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:43.440
in nineteen ninety four. It's a
bit of an aside, but I think

683
00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:46.960
it's interesting and perhaps relevant to understanding
the family dynamics. It's insane. The

684
00:48:47.079 --> 00:48:52.199
challenges it is a little bit insane
too. Clayton had some He had had

685
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:57.679
some disciplinary problems in nineteen ninety three
during the summer between his freshmen and sophomore

686
00:48:57.719 --> 00:49:01.079
years at college, and Michael had
sent him to get counseling. In April

687
00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:06.440
of nineteen eighty four, though,
someone discovered a bomb in Duke University's main

688
00:49:06.519 --> 00:49:10.280
administration building, along with a note
saying that war had been declared on the

689
00:49:10.360 --> 00:49:15.519
university. The bomb was basically a
gateorade bottle filled with gasoline and a fuse.

690
00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:20.199
The fuse had actually been lit,
but it had burned out just inches

691
00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:25.280
before igniting the gasoline. The investigation
led police to Clayton, and when Michael

692
00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:30.440
gave them permission to search their home, investigators found an assortment of model rocket

693
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:37.440
engines, gunpowder, different lengths of
fuses, and equipment for making official university

694
00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:42.400
student ID cards that had been stolen. There were six pipe bombs and enough

695
00:49:42.440 --> 00:49:46.239
materials to make thirteen more. Two
of the bombs were rigged to be launched

696
00:49:46.280 --> 00:49:53.159
from a crossbow. Clayton was arrested
and charged with possession of unregistered destructive devices

697
00:49:53.199 --> 00:49:58.760
and for the manufacture of those devices. Although he could have faced up to

698
00:49:58.840 --> 00:50:02.159
thirty years in prison and seven hundred
and fifty thousand dollars in fines, he

699
00:50:02.199 --> 00:50:07.239
struck a plea deal. He apologized
to the judge, and he was sentenced

700
00:50:07.239 --> 00:50:12.119
to four years and one month in
a federal prison. That story has not

701
00:50:12.239 --> 00:50:16.920
talked about enough. I think that's
really indicative of the troubles that were in

702
00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:21.320
the house with these kids. And
I had said that they were happy when

703
00:50:21.320 --> 00:50:22.559
they were younger. I think they
were happy, but I think as they

704
00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:30.119
all aged into adolescents and early adulthood, they all struggled with a lot of

705
00:50:30.199 --> 00:50:31.679
problems. Yeah, I'm going to
go into that a little bit at the

706
00:50:31.880 --> 00:50:37.159
end. Yeah, everyone has their
issues as an adolescent and as a college

707
00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:42.360
student. But yeah, making bombs, making bombs and actually attempting to and

708
00:50:42.400 --> 00:50:46.800
they were in the family home.
It's really it's really I think it's horrifying.

709
00:50:46.880 --> 00:50:51.639
Yeah, And Michael would downplay it
and defend Clayton. He would basically

710
00:50:51.639 --> 00:50:54.360
say the bombs they were too small
to do any damage, and that Clayton

711
00:50:54.440 --> 00:50:59.639
was just trying to create a diversion
because he stole the ID, the machine

712
00:50:59.639 --> 00:51:02.840
to create student id's and so the
bomb was just a diversion, and Clayton

713
00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:07.840
said that they wouldn't have detonated,
but I believe they would have, yeah,

714
00:51:07.880 --> 00:51:09.800
for sure, gasoline and a fuse. I think we need to mention

715
00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:13.559
in the staircase they sweep us under
the rock. They're like, oh,

716
00:51:13.599 --> 00:51:16.119
Clayton had some. It just makes
it sound like, you know, he

717
00:51:16.199 --> 00:51:22.000
could old boy stuff, right,
But making a bomb multiple pumps, that's

718
00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:27.840
that's troubling, Yeah, for sure. In nineteen ninety seven, Michael started

719
00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:31.920
writing a regular column for the Durham
Herald Son newspaper. He used the column

720
00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:37.280
mostly to attack the Durham government,
the police department, and the district attorney.

721
00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:40.639
He complained about taxes, and he
criticized the police for wasting their time

722
00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:45.000
busting bingo halls and for their their
low close rate of solving crimes. Which

723
00:51:45.719 --> 00:51:49.320
I'm kind of with them on that
one. Right, you're spending your time

724
00:51:49.320 --> 00:51:52.639
busting bingo halls, you probably there's
probably other things you could be focusing on.

725
00:51:53.599 --> 00:51:57.159
In one of his columns, he
said, quote, the chance of

726
00:51:57.159 --> 00:52:01.199
a criminal getting caught is only slightly
better than getting hit by lightning. A

727
00:52:01.239 --> 00:52:07.280
lot of police officers were irritated by
his commentary, which would provide fodder for

728
00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:12.000
his defense team to try and claim
that the police targeted him after Kathleen's death

729
00:52:12.440 --> 00:52:15.719
because of these columns. After a
couple of years of writing this column,

730
00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:20.360
Peterson had made a bit of a
name for himself and he had obviously strong

731
00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:24.000
opinions on the local government, so
he decided to run for mayor of Durham.

732
00:52:24.400 --> 00:52:29.360
This was in nineteen ninety nine.
There were five candidates in the October

733
00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:32.360
primary election, and the top two
vote getters would end up being on the

734
00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:37.239
ballot in November. He ran a
grassroots campaign, with most of his donations

735
00:52:37.239 --> 00:52:42.440
coming in small amounts of less than
one hundred dollars. The main issues he

736
00:52:42.519 --> 00:52:47.639
campaigned on were standing up against drugs, gangs and illegal weapons, promoting racial

737
00:52:47.679 --> 00:52:52.800
harmony, and returning power to the
people. It looked like he was on

738
00:52:52.840 --> 00:52:55.599
his way to a top two finish
in the primary, but then a reporter

739
00:52:55.760 --> 00:53:00.320
confronted him about a claim he had
made that he had earned two purple hearts

740
00:53:00.320 --> 00:53:04.239
while in Vietnam and that he took
shrapnel in his leg, which was why

741
00:53:04.280 --> 00:53:07.000
he walked with a limp. The
reporter did some research and found that there

742
00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:12.280
were no purple hearts, and Michael's
injury had occurred in the car accident that

743
00:53:12.320 --> 00:53:15.360
we had talked about earlier, not
in combat. Michael admitted that he had

744
00:53:15.400 --> 00:53:20.280
lied, and he wrote a paid
political column where he tried to set the

745
00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:23.800
record straight and repair his damaged reputation, but it was too little, too

746
00:53:23.880 --> 00:53:28.920
late, and he ended up coming
in third, just six hundred votes behind

747
00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:31.440
the second place finished. How did
he really, Yeah, he was close.

748
00:53:31.480 --> 00:53:35.840
I mean, I think without that
news coming out, he probably would

749
00:53:35.840 --> 00:53:39.719
have at least made it to the
general election. I think it's interesting that

750
00:53:39.760 --> 00:53:45.119
he's running on a platform against drugs
and alcohol when his two sons had a

751
00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:47.519
lot of run ins with the law, I believe, and they able to

752
00:53:47.639 --> 00:53:52.440
have issues with drugs and alcohol.
They're both call themselves alcoholics. Oh really

753
00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:58.320
yeah. Interesting. I know we
have not gotten to the actual crime or

754
00:53:58.360 --> 00:54:01.559
alleged crime, but I think it's
a good point to say, oh my

755
00:54:01.599 --> 00:54:06.360
gosh, h part one, yes, I promise you. In part two

756
00:54:06.400 --> 00:54:10.719
we will talk about Kathleen's death and
whether that was an accident or a crime,

757
00:54:10.840 --> 00:54:14.159
and all of the evidence and all
of that stuff. But I think

758
00:54:14.199 --> 00:54:22.960
this is a good point to stop, all right, before we go.

759
00:54:22.039 --> 00:54:28.239
I wanted to give a heartfelt and
hearty thank you to our listeners and patrons

760
00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:31.239
for your support. This month,
we were able to donate one hundred and

761
00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:37.679
fifty dollars to the San Bernardino Cave
and Technical Rescue Team. So we talked

762
00:54:37.679 --> 00:54:42.960
about this team of volunteers and we
did the case on Aaron Corwin, just

763
00:54:43.039 --> 00:54:47.599
super sad case where she disappeared in
the desert. And this group of people,

764
00:54:47.679 --> 00:54:52.719
they you know, they search for
people who are lost or trapped and

765
00:54:52.760 --> 00:54:57.119
rescue people who are like in mind
shafts and things like that, and they're

766
00:54:57.159 --> 00:55:01.960
just incredibly brave volunteers. And Aaron's
mo lor Hevelyn, actually messaged us a

767
00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:07.280
while back and asked us if we
would consider supporting this charity as one of

768
00:55:07.280 --> 00:55:09.119
our donations. And so we're happy
to be able to do that because they're

769
00:55:09.559 --> 00:55:15.119
really heroic people. And you said
some of those volunteers have lost their lives.

770
00:55:15.239 --> 00:55:17.480
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's
a very dangerous work that they do.

771
00:55:19.280 --> 00:55:24.599
It's important work, and I know
that Aaron's family was super just grateful

772
00:55:25.559 --> 00:55:30.519
that they were able to help find
her. So thank you so much.

773
00:55:30.760 --> 00:55:35.199
Okay, so it's my birthday week. Happy birthday to me. Happy birthday

774
00:55:35.199 --> 00:55:38.159
time, I know, and for
my birthday, if you could leave a

775
00:55:38.239 --> 00:55:42.039
five star review, that'd be awesome, that would be great for me.

776
00:55:42.079 --> 00:55:44.039
You don't have to even leave a
review. You can just rate. You

777
00:55:44.079 --> 00:55:45.880
can just you know, that's a
lot easier. You can just go to

778
00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:50.360
the bottom, scroll down wherever you're
listening, go to the bottom, and

779
00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:52.320
I think that's how it usually works, and there's stars and just click on

780
00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:57.079
five stars. So thank you.
Do it for the birthday girl, and

781
00:55:57.119 --> 00:56:00.840
thank you all for listening. Follow
us on social media. Love Mary Kill

782
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:05.280
on Instagram, LMK pod on Twitter. You can find us on Facebook.

783
00:56:05.960 --> 00:56:09.280
Consider supporting us on Patreon five dollars
a month. Go to patreon dot com

784
00:56:09.320 --> 00:56:17.239
slash Love Mary Kill for ad free
and access, early access and one bonus

785
00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:22.519
episode a month. If you have
left a review or rating, thank you

786
00:56:22.559 --> 00:56:24.639
so much, and we are reading
them. We don't read them on air,

787
00:56:24.920 --> 00:56:29.280
we don't really post them on social
media anymore, but know that we

788
00:56:29.360 --> 00:56:34.840
see them and we appreciate it keeps
us going and sometimes they, honest to

789
00:56:34.880 --> 00:56:37.599
God, tear me up. So
your support means so much. It's until

790
00:56:37.599 --> 00:57:15.519
next time. Don't kill your husband
don't kill your wife, turning to pick the