Kathleen and Michael Peterson - Part 3

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:03.200
I am Rich and I'm Tina.
And if there's one thing we've learned in

2
00:00:03.240 --> 00:00:07.200
over twenty years of marriage, some
days you'll feel like killing your husband.

3
00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:11.080
Seems like it seems like you're really
feeling that today. Some days you'll feel

4
00:00:11.080 --> 00:00:30.719
like killing your wife. Welcome to
love, Mary Kill Hey Tina, Hey

5
00:00:30.800 --> 00:00:36.079
Rich, welcome back. They welcome
back to you and all our wonderful listeners.

6
00:00:36.359 --> 00:00:40.439
I was laughing at the intro just
because you sound so tired. You

7
00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:44.479
sound really over it. I am
so ready to be done with Michael Peterson.

8
00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:47.399
And I really wasn't thinking this was
going to be a three parter.

9
00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:50.920
I thought I'll probably be two parter. But there's just two. There's just

10
00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:54.240
a lot. It's a it's yeah, there's a lot of information, and

11
00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:59.479
you've done a great job researching,
and I did a mediocre job. I

12
00:00:59.479 --> 00:01:00.840
mean, you could just gave me
some topics that you wanted me to cover.

13
00:01:02.039 --> 00:01:04.239
Yeah, you've done a fine job
on those topics so far. I

14
00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:07.359
know you're going to talk about the
owl theory later in this episode, so

15
00:01:07.640 --> 00:01:17.879
I'm really stop it with the owl
puns. Sorry. I do enjoy a

16
00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:21.920
good pun. Actually I'm really bad
at pun I'm not punny at all.

17
00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:25.799
Your punnier than I am. My
grandma, who was about four foot ten,

18
00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:27.799
she would she was one of the
funniest people ever knew. And she

19
00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:33.159
loved puns. And she would always
tell me that she loved puns. Puns

20
00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:36.200
are supposed to be the lowest form
of humor, and because she was only

21
00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:40.079
four foot ten, that meant that
was why she liked puns so much.

22
00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:44.040
She was sweet, she was.
Yeah, she was a sweet lady.

23
00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:45.959
I wish I would have known her. I wish you would have too,

24
00:01:45.959 --> 00:01:48.920
You would have liked her a lot. I think puns are really uh,

25
00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:52.719
you have to be really quick witted
for a pun. Yeah, I think

26
00:01:52.719 --> 00:01:56.760
it's a sign of intelligence. Really, And I'm not good. I used

27
00:01:56.760 --> 00:01:59.840
to be really good when I was
younger. I would like I worked in

28
00:02:00.359 --> 00:02:04.000
and we used to get in pun
more. It's like we would somebody would

29
00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:06.920
come up with a topic and we
would just start riffing on that topic,

30
00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:10.039
like and it was one pun after
another. And I can't do that anymore.

31
00:02:10.159 --> 00:02:15.639
I think sometimes you're playing off someone. It's easier than just coming up

32
00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:19.719
with one on your own. Yeah, And because I'm never you're just good

33
00:02:19.719 --> 00:02:23.319
at a turn of a phrase,
too. You've always been good at that.

34
00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:28.719
I don't feel very good at that
right now, but you're just sleepy.

35
00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:30.960
We started this at ten am and
it is now three thirty and we're

36
00:02:31.000 --> 00:02:36.000
still going. So here we go, Here we go episode three, and

37
00:02:36.520 --> 00:02:40.319
we're committed to doing If this episode
is six hours that we're going to finish

38
00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:44.680
the Peterson case please no, no, it won't be that long. But

39
00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:47.919
there are some things to discuss.
Yeah, I do have more snacks.

40
00:02:49.159 --> 00:02:51.719
Well, I know there's you brought
four. There are two left, so

41
00:02:52.039 --> 00:02:53.520
are you just going to give them
both to me? I think one of

42
00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:57.479
them has sugar and or chocolate?
No? Are you kidding? You didn't

43
00:02:57.479 --> 00:03:00.599
do any sugar? How don't Dare
you? I really trying? I think

44
00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:04.599
you need to, sir, you
need to leave the room and go find

45
00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:08.159
something. Well. I did eat
the carrots and the cucumbers from the episode

46
00:03:08.199 --> 00:03:13.400
one. I do have Uncle Ray
two things. I have Uncle Ray's hot

47
00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:15.960
Cheese. My dad and brother are
both Ray, so Uncle I thought you

48
00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:20.120
would like this. I'd never heard
of Uncle Ray's brand before you have it.

49
00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:23.800
You definitely have because we bought them
because my brother is Uncle Ray.

50
00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:27.759
Yeah, okay, well, cheetos, hot cheese crunch. And then I

51
00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:31.280
bought some hip peas chickpea puffs.
Okay, you can just leave those somewhere

52
00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:35.280
else because I've had those before and
I do not like them. Okay,

53
00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:38.159
well why did you? Well,
I guess it was I picked them the

54
00:03:38.919 --> 00:03:44.080
order that I picked them. So
yeah, all right, just when we

55
00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:47.479
need more snacks in the pantry that
we never could eat a cat, all

56
00:03:47.560 --> 00:03:58.439
right, let's try them. That
was not delicious. I actually liked them

57
00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:01.400
both. Well, good for you, I thought. I thought the chickpea

58
00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:05.159
puffs were like very here's the thing, and here's the thing. I know

59
00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:10.599
we're you in to get these snacks. There are better options. They have

60
00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:15.360
cookies, they have cakes, they
have candy, they have fried chicken,

61
00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:18.879
they pizza, they have many things. But yet you chose these snacks,

62
00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:23.519
the hip pieas. Like initially you
put it in your mouth like, oh,

63
00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:26.160
it's a delicious, crunchy cheese snack. And then you're like, oh,

64
00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:29.920
wait, it is some mushy vegetable. Like there's this vegetable. I

65
00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:31.560
guess it's made with chickpeas, right, there's like a chickpea. After taste.

66
00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:33.720
In my opinion, I really liked
it, but maybe it was because

67
00:04:33.720 --> 00:04:40.160
I followed it right away with the
hot cheese crunch yeah, which uh were

68
00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:45.319
I don't It's obviously it's like a
flame and hot cheeto, but it's not

69
00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:49.199
as crunchy and just it didn't have
much flavor other than yeah, there's heat.

70
00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:53.920
I really let you down with our
snacks today. Well, you know,

71
00:04:54.160 --> 00:04:58.600
we've got the laced snacks. We
did stacks stacks, and I did

72
00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:02.160
bring up a little a bit of
a piece of chocolate because well it's almost

73
00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:09.560
four o'clock and I really haven't anything
today other than chips and vegetables. So

74
00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:12.959
anyway, let's get on with it. Let's finish this bad boy up,

75
00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:15.360
all right. Well, if you
haven't listened to parts one and two,

76
00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:21.319
definitely go do that. We've talked
about Michael's background, Kathleen's background, the

77
00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:28.639
whole thing with Elizabeth Ratlift and her
strange death at the bottom of a flight

78
00:05:28.680 --> 00:05:30.800
of stairs. Let me ask a
question about Elizabeth Ratlift that you probably don't

79
00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:35.240
know the answer to. She was
not swabbed or given a rape kit at

80
00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:40.319
her death. I'm pretty sure the
answer is no. But I don't know

81
00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:44.279
for one hundred percent, but I
never read anything. I would be curious

82
00:05:44.360 --> 00:05:47.199
if she and Michael had sex.
That would be interesting to know. In

83
00:05:47.240 --> 00:05:53.680
the last part, we talked about
the crime scene, the circumstances around Kathleen's

84
00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:58.759
death, Michael's nine one one call, and kind of the initial investigation.

85
00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:01.639
So now we're going to get into
sort of the you know, what happened

86
00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:06.279
after Kathleen's death, a little bit
more on the investigation, the family dynamics,

87
00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:12.319
and the trial, and we will
talk about the famous owl theory in

88
00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:15.560
some detail. So I'm looking forward
to that nice. So we did talk

89
00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:21.519
about the fact that Michael lawyered up
very quickly. He did first hire a

90
00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:26.279
friend of his, a woman named
Carrie Sutton. You mentioned that she brought

91
00:06:26.319 --> 00:06:30.680
another lawyer into the case, but
then days later Michael exchanged them both for

92
00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:34.639
a very high powered legal team,
David Rudolph and Thomas Maher, who are

93
00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:41.160
featured in the documentary pretty heavily.
Rudolph he had defended some very high profile

94
00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:46.680
cases in North Carolina, and then
in February, his attorneys hired doctor Henry

95
00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:50.000
Lee as an expert witness. A
lot of people know doctor Henry Lee well

96
00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:55.199
known for the work he did for
OJ's defense, and you know, a

97
00:06:55.199 --> 00:07:00.560
lot of people think of him as
one of the world's foremost forensic science other

98
00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:03.160
people think of him as no more
than a hired gun who will basically,

99
00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:08.079
you know, say whatever you're paying
in. And his reputation has been sullied

100
00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:11.959
in recent months. Yes, yes, after this whole thing happened, but

101
00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:16.680
his reputation has definitely been sullied.
Initially, the whole family was behind Michael

102
00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:23.160
in publicly supporting him and proclaiming his
innocence. Some people, like Kathleen's sisters,

103
00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:27.439
had doubts early on, but they
kept those to themselves. Michael had

104
00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:31.040
asked Kathleen's sister Candace, to take
care of the funeral and the burial arrangements.

105
00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:35.120
She bought a gravesite at the ceremony
at the cemetery, but it turned

106
00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:40.360
out that the plot wasn't big enough
to accommodate a headstone. The cemetery said

107
00:07:40.360 --> 00:07:44.120
that she would need to buy four
contiguous plots if she wanted a headstone.

108
00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:46.160
I know, it seems really strange
to me too. I don't know why

109
00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:49.959
a headstone would take up that much
space, but that's what they said.

110
00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:54.959
She told Michael that that was the
plan. Later, she was in the

111
00:07:54.959 --> 00:07:57.639
house and she was really cold,
and so she asked Michael if he wouldn't

112
00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:00.680
mind turning up the heat. He
snapped at her, said, I can

113
00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:03.639
either turn the heat on or buy
four plots. I can't afford to do

114
00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:09.120
both. She felt like she had
been slapped in the face. Another example

115
00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:13.519
about of Michael's sensitivity toward money.
After Kathleen's death, Kathleen's other sister,

116
00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:18.959
Laurie, handled the floral arrangements for
the funeral. Later, when Michael got

117
00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:22.160
the bill from the florist, he
fired off a nasty email to Laurie,

118
00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:26.240
complaining about how much she had spent. I don't know if we have elaborated

119
00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:28.720
on this enough, but Michael he
did like money. He liked to spend

120
00:08:28.759 --> 00:08:35.279
money. The lifestyle that he and
Kathleen led was probably it was definitely above

121
00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:39.120
their meals. Oh yeah, they
were spending much more than they were making

122
00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:43.000
at that time. Well, Michael, I believe his income for least a

123
00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:48.799
couple of years prior to Kathleen's death
was zero. Is that correct? Yeah,

124
00:08:48.919 --> 00:08:54.759
exactly. Caitlin, who is Kathleen's
daughter. She originally was behind Michael,

125
00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:58.000
and she was actually in a lot
of ways the de facto spokesperson for

126
00:08:58.039 --> 00:09:01.720
the family. But after she read
the autopsy report, she started reflecting on

127
00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:05.720
her relationship with Michael and she started
thinking, you know, he's not a

128
00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:09.919
very loving person. There was a
time when he had talked Kathleen into not

129
00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:13.679
visiting her at college. He had
this temper that she knew about. He

130
00:09:13.759 --> 00:09:18.960
yelled frequently, he was controlling,
and so she really changed her view after

131
00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:24.080
that. She actually called Margaret and
begged her to look at the autopsy report,

132
00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:26.799
but Margaret refused. And it was
really sad because Caitlyn was, you

133
00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:31.840
know, she was really good friends
with Margaret and Martha both before they became

134
00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:35.559
a blended family, and so suddenly
they were on opposite sides. And Caitlyn

135
00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:41.080
got a lot of pressure from Todd
and other family members to appear with them

136
00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:46.600
in interviews, and she declined.
There was actually one TV interview that Todd

137
00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:50.080
had arranged and he wanted all five
of the kids to be on camera talking

138
00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:54.080
about their dad and how distraught they
were with all this stuff, and Caitlin

139
00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:58.120
basically refused to be on it.
And what ended up happening. It's kind

140
00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:01.879
of funny, is is. The
four other siblings did the interview, and

141
00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:07.480
Clayton's girlfriend, Becky was on with
the interview as well. Becky was never

142
00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:11.000
identified and she didn't speak, and
so a lot of people just assumed that

143
00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:16.440
that was Caitlin, but it was
not Bill Peterson, Michael's brother. He

144
00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:20.080
called Kathleen's sister Candace at one point
to let her know that Michael was a

145
00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:24.519
practicing bisexual, because he knew it
was only a matter of time before that

146
00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:30.120
information became public. At some point
after that, Michael called Candace collect from

147
00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:33.799
I think he was in jail at
that point in time, waiting to get

148
00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:37.840
bonded out. She asked him directly
if he was homosexual or bisexual. He

149
00:10:37.879 --> 00:10:41.399
said no and asked why she was
asking him that, and she said,

150
00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:46.279
well, Bill called and told us
that, and he got very flustered at

151
00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:50.480
that point and he ended up hanging
up without saying anything else. So again

152
00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:54.840
it was an indication that he was
he was not open with his bisexuality.

153
00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:58.639
He may have been open with Kathleen
or not, we don't know for a

154
00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:01.759
fact. You know that Bill was
the only one in his family like his

155
00:11:01.879 --> 00:11:05.639
other brother and his sister did not
know that information as well, So it

156
00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:11.080
wasn't like he was wide open about
that aspect of his life. You should

157
00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:16.799
mention this was over twenty years ago, and in terms of accepting people's sexuality,

158
00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:22.559
we've come a long, long way. Yeah. Absolutely. The district

159
00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:26.399
attorney convened a special grand jury on
December twentieth of two thousand and one.

160
00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:33.320
They heard testimony from doctor Deborah Radish, agent Dwayne Deaver, and investigator Art

161
00:11:33.320 --> 00:11:37.279
Holland, and they returned a bill
of indictment for first degree murder against Michael.

162
00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:41.360
It took a while for his bail
hearing, but Michael was eventually released

163
00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:48.639
on eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars
bond on January fourteenth. Patty, Michael's

164
00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:52.639
first wife, was behind him all
the way. But I have to say

165
00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:54.879
her. She gave a few interviews
and some of her statements were kind of

166
00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:01.039
vague and open to interpretation. In
one she said, my assumption and my

167
00:12:01.159 --> 00:12:03.039
hope is they are going to find
the truth and that he is innocent.

168
00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:07.440
Another, when she was asked did
he ever hit you, she replied,

169
00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:13.559
I would say no, which again
just very kind of you know, replies

170
00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:16.120
they're hedging. Yeah, a little
cagy, It's a good way to say

171
00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:20.480
it. Michael's sister Anne in California, she changed her view over the course

172
00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:24.840
of the trial and eventually believed that
Michael did kill people. I didn't have

173
00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:28.759
and Liz. Yes, she did
an interview where she told the press,

174
00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:33.519
I'm not keeping it a secret that
I think he killed both Kathleen and Liz.

175
00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:37.600
And Michael's book Behind the Staircase,
at one point he talks about his

176
00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:41.879
parents and how they both sent him
messages. It said we love you,

177
00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:46.360
and he said at that point that's
all he needed and it made him feel

178
00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:50.440
better that his parents. He had
his parents' support. Yeah, but apparently

179
00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:52.240
he did not have all of his
family members support. No, that was

180
00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:56.240
interesting that Anne, uh definitely changed
her views. Everyone else, though,

181
00:12:56.320 --> 00:13:01.159
Clayton, Todd, Margaret, Martha, they've all been firmly in his camp

182
00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:03.600
throughout the entire process. None,
none of them have ever said anything,

183
00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:09.320
at least publicly that they doubted his
innocence. So I want to talk a

184
00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:13.600
little bit about the documentary that got
made because it was it almost became part

185
00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:18.399
of the story in some ways.
It's wild to me the timing of that

186
00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:20.600
and how it happens. I'm hoping
you can break that down for us.

187
00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:26.159
I don't know exactly when they started
filming the documentary, but it did seem

188
00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:30.559
like it was pretty early on.
So it was a French company that called

189
00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:35.799
Maha Productions that actually did the documentary. They started filming before they had any

190
00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:37.600
kind of a deal, Like they
didn't have a deal with Netflix or anybody,

191
00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:41.000
and so that was a little bit
strange that they Yeah, they started

192
00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:46.519
doing it really quickly. One of
the two people from Maha Productions that was

193
00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:52.120
involved, he was in Vietnam at
the same time as Michael, and he

194
00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:56.639
was also at University of North Carolina
Chapel Hill when Michael was there in law

195
00:13:56.639 --> 00:14:01.919
school. He denied knowing Michael,
but it did make people wonder like was

196
00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:07.399
there some connection between them? Was
there something more to it, because they

197
00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:09.639
really had a lot of access to
the defense team. I mean, they

198
00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:13.240
were behind the scenes and the whole
thing. If you watch the documentary,

199
00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:16.480
you'll see like they're in all the
meetings, they're you know, they're really

200
00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:20.200
behind the scenes. Yeah, and
people have commented that that's not it's just

201
00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:22.960
not done. No, I don't
know how they got that access, but

202
00:14:24.039 --> 00:14:26.480
to allow them to be in the
grand jury room or whatever. It just

203
00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:30.480
was not supposed to happen that way. Yeah, and it really kind of

204
00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:35.600
came off, I think ultimately as
the documentary came off looking very biased towards

205
00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:39.320
Michael. And part of that could
be because they had access to the defense,

206
00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:43.039
they didn't necessarily have the same access
to the prosecution. So initially they

207
00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:48.360
were supposed to have access to both
the prosecution and the defense, but the

208
00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:52.399
prosecution, for whatever reason, didn't
want to be a part of it.

209
00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:56.639
Yeah, so we don't know how
who made contact first. Did Michael contact

210
00:14:56.960 --> 00:15:01.440
his friend the filmmaker or vice versa, Yeah, I'm not sure. I

211
00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:03.960
mean, Michael was you know,
he was a fairly well known author.

212
00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:07.360
So it could be that the documentary
company heard about this case and was like,

213
00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:11.440
oh, this is going to be
a big one because he's he is

214
00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:15.679
at least somewhat of a well known
personality. So I would assume they heard

215
00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:18.000
about it and then you know,
latched onto it. But I don't know.

216
00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:22.759
There's a huge ick factor there too. And the kids, who I

217
00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:26.120
call them kids, but they're not
kids. I mean they're all over eighteen

218
00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:30.960
at this point, some of them
are. I think the youngest was tell

219
00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:33.000
me Margaret, Martha was the youngest. Martha was the youngest, and she

220
00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:37.720
was eighteen or I believe, so
she had just started to just started college,

221
00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:39.639
and Caitlyn was a year older.
And then Margaret was a year older

222
00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:43.279
than him and the boys or her, I'm sorry, and the boys were

223
00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:48.039
like twenty five and twenty seven.
So this documentary I believe impacted the children

224
00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:54.679
to an extent that we as viewers
can never know. I think it essentially

225
00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:58.279
ruined some of their lives in a
lot of ways. I'll talk about that

226
00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:02.279
at the end. But yeah,
it's kind of sad that this choice was

227
00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:07.000
made by Michael not thinking about the
impact that it would have on his family

228
00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:11.799
for years to come. In my
not defending Michael, but also I think

229
00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:15.039
he had no idea probably how big
this case would become either, Yeah,

230
00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:19.440
for sure, but I mean to
put that your kids through that and to

231
00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:26.080
have you know, they became celebrities
of a sort and everything, every action

232
00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:30.879
was scrutinized and filmed yep, for
sure. Then there's the whole thing with

233
00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:37.480
the film's editor Sophie Brunei, who
reportedly fell in love with Michael at some

234
00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:42.279
point during the process of making this
documentary. They had a relationship that lasted

235
00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:48.559
for thirteen years. According to brune
she finished work on the eight original episodes

236
00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:53.519
of the documentary without ever meeting or
corresponding with Peterson. She said that she

237
00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:57.320
was inspired to reach out to him
only after he was sentenced to life without

238
00:16:57.559 --> 00:17:03.799
possibility of parrole. Sorry alert,
she said, quote, it was only

239
00:17:03.879 --> 00:17:07.440
because I was not the film editor
anymore that I felt entitled to reach out

240
00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:11.119
to him. Otherwise I would have
found it improper unquote. I just want

241
00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:17.920
to mention spoiler alerts are usually given
at the beginning, a retroactive spoiler alert.

242
00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:21.319
Well, people have said, and
I do question their sanity, that

243
00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:26.559
Michael is charming. So you have
to wonder did he charm her to you

244
00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:30.240
know, get her on his side
and to make the documentary more favorable.

245
00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:34.799
You do wonder didn't they break up
right after the release of the documentary.

246
00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:38.720
Well, I know they were together
for about thirteen years total. Now.

247
00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:42.119
The documentary was released in a sort
of a staggered way, Like the first

248
00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:47.599
eight episodes were released in like late
two thousand and four, early two thousand

249
00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:51.720
and five, and then I think
they made three more episodes like a few

250
00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:53.839
years later, or two more and
then three more like a few years after

251
00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:57.559
that. Okay, we must have
watched it in its entirety. I think

252
00:17:57.559 --> 00:18:02.720
we did, yeah, twenty eighteen. Yeah, I'm not remembering it's two

253
00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:06.119
thousand and four release at all.
Yeah, we might tid Netflix would have

254
00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:08.720
been like DVDs in the mail only, And I'm pretty sure we didn't watch

255
00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:11.319
it. Yeah, I think you're
right. We watched it after the whole

256
00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:15.759
thing was out. Maybe maybe it
didn't make a big splash until the second,

257
00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:18.960
you know, chunk of it came
out. I don't know. After

258
00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:22.920
they broke up, Sophie did say
quote Michael was not the man he had

259
00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:26.880
pretended he wanted to be, or
he changed too much during the long justice

260
00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:30.480
process, but she never she never
came out and said she suspected that he

261
00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:36.000
killed Kathleen. And she also said
she's not bitter about the time that they

262
00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:40.400
spent together as well. I just
want to make a couple of comments about

263
00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:45.359
money that Michael was able to get
from Kathleen's estate after her death, because

264
00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:48.839
I think if the motive if he
did kill her and the motive was financial.

265
00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:53.640
Here's sort of the rundown of that. On January twenty sixth, he

266
00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:59.599
filed a claim on Kathleen's assets with
Nortel, her employer. Ten days later,

267
00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:03.599
Norton issued him the first check for
twenty nine thousand dollars, which was

268
00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:08.599
the balance after taxes of her long
term investment funds. On February nineteenth,

269
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:15.079
Nortel released another check to Michael for
her pension fund after taxes that was over

270
00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:18.759
ninety four thousand dollars. When he
got that check, he went on a

271
00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:21.960
shopping spree. He bought a bunch
of items for every room in the house.

272
00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:25.359
He did not drugs, artwork,
and furniture. He bought a ten

273
00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:30.599
thousand dollars plasma TV for the family
room and a room full of exercise equipment

274
00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:33.400
instead of spending that money on his
legal defense, and a small fridge for

275
00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:38.519
his bedroom to keep white wine chilled
and his wineglass frosted. So yeah,

276
00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:44.480
I'm not sure his priorities were quite
in order thereikes later, Nortel issued a

277
00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:48.799
final check for two hundred and thirteen
thousand, and that was for Kathleen's deferred

278
00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:52.039
income from the past year. We
didn't talk about this earlier, but she

279
00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:56.799
had the option with her employment to
defer her income, basically saying I'll wait

280
00:19:56.880 --> 00:19:59.079
and get it, you know,
after the end of the year, to

281
00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:02.359
keep it like free and right.
We didn't talk, like you said,

282
00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:03.839
we didn't talk about that, but
I did wonder, like their credit card

283
00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:07.759
debt, maybe they just kind of
carry that. Yeah, we're going to

284
00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:11.440
give me. The interest rate on
her deferred income was higher than their credit

285
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:15.519
card debt, and that's just how
they right could be. Michael received a

286
00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:19.400
total of about three hundred and forty
thousand dollars from Nortel. He still wanted

287
00:20:19.400 --> 00:20:22.559
to get his hands on her life
insurance. She had a seven hundred and

288
00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:27.359
twenty five thousand dollars life insurance policy, but it paid double for accidental debt,

289
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:32.079
so that would have been about one
point five million that he would have

290
00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:37.519
gotten from that. I can't believe. Sorry, sometimes I just can't get

291
00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:42.160
over things. And the fact that
he was out buying TVs and I know

292
00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:49.839
that's an sorry flabbergasted. Yeah,
it's a little shocking. You like to

293
00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:55.359
he liked to shop. I guess
what about his kids? So back to

294
00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:59.039
Elizabeth Ratlift. Do you remember Elizabeth
Ratlift? They sure do. Yeah.

295
00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:04.440
So when the prosecution found out that
Michael had someone else in that he was

296
00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:07.839
close to in his life that had
also died at the bottom of a staircase,

297
00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:15.079
obviously that raised their eyebrows, and
they filed a request to exume Elizabeth

298
00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:18.519
Ratliff's body at the end of October
in twenty twelve. Elizabeth was buried in

299
00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:25.200
Texas. On February sixth of two
thousand and three, Margaret and Martha wrote

300
00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:29.839
a letter granting the DA permission to
exhume their mother's body, but in the

301
00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:33.240
letter they attacked the DA's character,
saying, quote, we only hope that

302
00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:37.519
you treat our mother's remains with more
respect than you have treated her memory unquote.

303
00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:45.440
In mid April, investigators flew to
Texas and supervised the exhumation of Elizabeth,

304
00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:48.720
and then they drove her body back
to Chapel Hill for the autopsy.

305
00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:55.759
Werner Spitz, the famous forensic scientist, was present on behalf of the defense

306
00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:03.039
along with their investigator Ron Garrett.
Doctor Radish performed the autopsy along with doctor

307
00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:07.480
Aaron Gleckman, who is a forensic
neuropathologist, Doctor Radish was curious based on

308
00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:12.640
the original report because she had never
in twenty years seen a cause of death

309
00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:21.319
listed as sudden unexpected death due to
a spontaneous intracranal intracranial hemorrhage caused by von

310
00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:27.599
Willebrand's disease. Elizabeth's body was in
an excellent state of preservation. The skin

311
00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:33.359
on her face it looked quite normal. They removed the makeup and they saw

312
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:38.880
bruising under her left eye and a
laceration on her eyebrow. The embalming process

313
00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:45.119
had the effect of preserving any bruising
that was there. There was bruising and

314
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:48.920
a tear on her upper gums and
also on the back of her left hand

315
00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:53.759
and her left wrist. There were
seven distinct lacerations to her head, the

316
00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:57.319
same number as found on Kathleen's.
They didn't look exactly the same, but

317
00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:02.200
they were, you know, somewhat
similar. Hers were on the top of

318
00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:04.960
her head, the very top of
her head, whereas Kathleen it was on

319
00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:08.640
the back of her head. But
really the fact that her the lacerations were

320
00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:12.720
on the top of her head really
made it more suspicious because if you think

321
00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:17.119
like falling down the stairs. It'd
be like, actually cutting the top of

322
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:21.599
your head would be kind of hard
to do. Yeah. There was also

323
00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:26.359
a distinct fracture along the base of
her skull, traveling from there down to

324
00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:30.440
where her spinal cord connects. Ultimately, the report said that because of the

325
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:37.400
character and the number of scalp lacerations, the trauma inflicted on Ratliff was clearly

326
00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:44.160
from what is called a homicidal assault. It's just crazy that twenty years later

327
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:49.519
that they can, you know,
exzoom a body and change the whole trajectory

328
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:56.839
of the autopsy. Bananas and Michael's
defense team was outraged over this whole thing,

329
00:23:56.119 --> 00:23:59.880
as you can understand that they were
outraged, but they were outraged that

330
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:03.920
they exhumed the body, that they
waited to do it until it was close

331
00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:07.119
to the trial because they felt like
they were trying to get publicity, and

332
00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:11.240
that they transported the body all the
way back to Durham to have their you

333
00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:17.720
know, forensic their medical examiner do
the autopsy rather than having someone independent do

334
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:22.000
it in Texas. So it became
a source of controversy. You have to

335
00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:26.079
wonder if this is even relevant to
Kathleen's death. Yeah, it is.

336
00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:32.240
It is somewhat surprising that this was
admitted into the trial, that the judge

337
00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:36.319
said this was admissible. I mean, it definitely is interesting for us looking

338
00:24:36.359 --> 00:24:38.519
at the case, not from a
legal perspective or a trial perspective, But

339
00:24:38.599 --> 00:24:42.680
yeah, is it relevant I don't
know. I don't think it is relevant

340
00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:47.200
in the case of Kathleen's death.
I guess you could say it's a pattern

341
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:51.240
of behavior, but in a court
of law, you have to look at

342
00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:59.039
the exact events that caused Kathleen's death, and throwing Elizabeth into the mix just

343
00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:03.480
is confusing to the jury. Yeah, I agree, And this just adds

344
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:08.359
to the trauma of poor Margaret and
Martha, and I just wish, I

345
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:11.599
hope that they have peace now.
But they've been through so much. They

346
00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:15.359
have been through a lot, and
this is probably a good time to take

347
00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:27.720
a quick break. Let's talk about
Michael's trial. Okay. On May fifth

348
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:33.880
of two thousand and three, they
started doing jury selection. They brought in

349
00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:36.799
one hundred and twenty four people,
which is double the amount they usually do.

350
00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:40.640
Because obviously this case had so much
publicity. That surprises me. I

351
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:44.680
would think it would be much higher. Yeah, well, I will say

352
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:48.000
that they expected jury selection to last
two weeks, but instead it took about

353
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:51.839
a month and a half. So
holy how yeah, it took a long

354
00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:53.240
time. So wait, so there
was only one hundred and twenty four That

355
00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:56.480
doesn't not seem like enough. I
don't know if they ended up bringing in

356
00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:59.559
more. Maybe they were thinking they
would get through it in that time,

357
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:03.400
but I don't know. The trial
actually started. Opening arguments began on July

358
00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:08.000
first of two thousand and three.
In his opening statement, the DA Jim

359
00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:12.680
Harden, he talked a lot about
the blowpoke. We haven't really talked about

360
00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:17.680
the blowpoke, but obviously this has
been a big part of the case,

361
00:26:17.799 --> 00:26:25.680
right because Candice, Kathleen's sister came
forward shortly after Kathleen's death and said,

362
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:29.319
Hey, you know what, I
bought these blowpokes for everyone in the family,

363
00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:33.759
and I wonder if that was the
murder weapon, a blowpoke. Everyone

364
00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:37.400
does everyone know what a blowpoke is? By now? Probably not. Most

365
00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:41.759
of us had never heard of a
blowhoke until this case, which actually sounds

366
00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:45.000
like a pretty good device. Yeah. It's like a fireplace tool. It's

367
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:48.319
like a long kind of hollow rod
and you can use it to poke at

368
00:26:48.359 --> 00:26:51.799
a fire, but you can also
blow into it. Sometimes you need to

369
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:55.799
do that to get a fire going. Yeah, exactly. So they had

370
00:26:55.880 --> 00:26:59.480
not found this when they searched the
house, and so that kind of became

371
00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:00.359
a focus all of a sudden,
is like, you know, I bet

372
00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:03.480
it was the blowpoke that was the
murder weapon, and he must have maybe

373
00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:07.759
hidn't it somehow? They were they
were grasp me at straws at trying to

374
00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:11.839
determine how how Kathleen was murdered.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, they

375
00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:15.599
had no murder weapon. If they
were if they were saying that Michael Peterson

376
00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:18.319
did this, but they didn't have
a murder weapon, that was definitely going

377
00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:23.519
to weaken their case. And because
the blowpoke is long and hollow, they

378
00:27:23.559 --> 00:27:27.720
thought, well, that's why there
was not a fracture your head, because

379
00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:32.440
you would expect to have a fracture
from those wounds that were on her head

380
00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:34.000
exactly. And it did have a
pointy part on it as well, which

381
00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:37.480
could also account for some of the
wounds like on her face that were you

382
00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:41.079
know, more like like a poke
or a pock mark or something like that.

383
00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:47.319
This part of the case kind of
drives me crazy that Candice is just

384
00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:49.319
like, wait a minute, I
have an idea, and it became the

385
00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:55.400
theory of the prosecutions, like their
main theory. Yeah. It was really

386
00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:59.279
a big, a big mistake on
the prosecution's part. Too huge mistake.

387
00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:02.359
They really, yeah, they really
based a lot of their case on that.

388
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:07.359
Also in the opening statement, Harden
highlighted the fact that Michael had had

389
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:11.599
no income and that the family was
living on credit, and that Kathleen's job

390
00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:15.880
was in jeopardy, and the fact
that Michael would suddenly have one point eight

391
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:19.839
million dollars on hand if he got
the life insurance payout along with her other

392
00:28:21.400 --> 00:28:26.759
payouts from Nortel. Doctor Radish testified
that the injuries to Kathleen's head were consistent

393
00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:30.480
with injuries caused by the blowpoke,
but not by a fall down the stairs.

394
00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:37.119
She also pointed out the many defensive
wounds that appeared on Kathleen's hands and

395
00:28:37.319 --> 00:28:41.319
arms. Dwayne Deaver, who I
know, will talk about more coming out,

396
00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:44.240
but he was an important witness for
the prosecution. He was the blood

397
00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:48.000
spatter expert, and he testified that
the blood patterns seen on the walls and

398
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:53.359
the stairs of the Peterson's home and
where Kathleen's body was found were consistent with

399
00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:59.160
a person being beaten to death.
He testified that he had had a lot

400
00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:02.640
of experience in blood spatter, He
had been trained by one of the best

401
00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:06.640
experts in the field, and that
he had worked on five hundred blood spatter

402
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:11.319
cases, written two hundred reports,
and testified in sixty cases. Spoiler alert

403
00:29:12.039 --> 00:29:21.079
not true, okay girl. During
the trial, the judge ruled that Michael's

404
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:26.839
porn browsing and homosexual emails were admissible
as evidence because he said it goes to

405
00:29:26.920 --> 00:29:32.319
the issue of motive and also goes
to attack the idyllic marriage that the defense

406
00:29:32.359 --> 00:29:34.920
had put forth in their opening statement. They wanted to portray that Michael and

407
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:38.599
Kathleen's marriage was perfect, and so
the judge allowed this, which again a

408
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:42.400
little bit surprising, but for sure
you have to question the judge's decision on

409
00:29:42.519 --> 00:29:48.039
that too, because Michael's sexuality really
shouldn't have been admissible in today's court.

410
00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:53.279
It probably would not have been.
Yeah, there was a male escort,

411
00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:57.960
Brad who testified during the trial.
This was a guy he was in the

412
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:03.359
military, but he was running an
escort business and Michael and he had corresponded

413
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:07.519
over email a few times he testified
in the trial, which just kind of

414
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:10.559
added to it. Was kind of
a circuits like atmosphere, I would say

415
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:15.039
of the trial. And what was
the phrase that Frida Black used all throughout

416
00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:23.240
the trial describing Michael's behavior, something
about te pure te filth, pure te

417
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:27.079
filth. Yeah, what if someone
I don't know if that's a Southern expression,

418
00:30:27.160 --> 00:30:30.240
But I don't know what she means
by pure tea filth. I don't

419
00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:34.000
either. I don't know what the
images that were saved on Michael's computer were,

420
00:30:34.119 --> 00:30:37.799
if they were just you know,
pictures of men in compromising positions,

421
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:42.680
or if they went beyond that,
but I think they were just regular porn

422
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:48.839
images. Yeah. I think this
trial may have ruined poor Freda Black's life.

423
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:53.480
She died in twenty eighteen of liver
disease caused by chronic alcoholism. And

424
00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:59.720
I think she'd had several arrests for
duys. And didn't you say she had

425
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:03.200
worked at a dry cleaner? Yeah, the one article I saw about her

426
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:06.640
arrest for DUI was that she was
working at a dry cleaner, So yeah,

427
00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:08.759
a little surprising. Yeah, I
think she did the best that she

428
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:14.200
could do as a prosecutor. Yeah, At one point during the trial,

429
00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:17.880
the jury took a field trip to
the home. The defense wanted them to

430
00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:22.160
conclude that the space was too tight
to swing a blowpoke, and they did

431
00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:26.160
actually come to that conclusion that there
wasn't enough room, But some of them

432
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:30.359
came to another conclusion also, and
that was that the space was too small

433
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:34.359
for someone to sustain such massive injuries
from that fall, Like there just wasn't

434
00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:40.440
enough room or enough you know space
where it would have been that brutal of

435
00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:45.680
you know injuries. I'm curious and
how many instances of a fall downstairs would

436
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:49.039
there be a skull fracture. Yeah, I don't know. I think that

437
00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:52.759
in most cases the skull would be
fractured. Yeah. I think in most

438
00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:56.559
cases they're looking for some either some
type of not necessarily a skull fracture,

439
00:31:56.599 --> 00:31:59.960
but could be your neck, you
know, breaking your neck or other bone,

440
00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:04.279
broken your ribs or legs, or
something like that. There's usually some

441
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:07.960
type of a fracture or break.
Thousands of cases I believe were analyzed and

442
00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:15.000
no injuries similar to Kathleen's were found. Yeah. Doctor Henry Lee testified that

443
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:20.119
the medium velocity spatter can come from
many things other than impact, so for

444
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:24.480
example, shaking your hair, swinging
your hand, coughing, sneezing, or

445
00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:30.599
wheezing. He said that the evidence
was more consistent with an accident than a

446
00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:34.599
beating. But he also said that
there was too much blood for a beating,

447
00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:37.319
which was counterintuitive to the jury and
for a lot of people on the

448
00:32:37.400 --> 00:32:42.240
jury. They later said that was
a blow to his credibility because it just

449
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:46.799
didn't make sense that there's too much
blood for a beating. During the defense's

450
00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:54.039
case, the blowpoke made another appearance, so literal appearance literally. Peterson's attorney,

451
00:32:54.160 --> 00:33:00.440
David Rudolph, produced the blowpoke,
dirty and covered with cobwebs, and

452
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:06.400
not bent and not damaged, not
no blood on it. They had apparently

453
00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:09.799
found the blowpoke in the garage,
it had been discovered, and it was

454
00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:15.599
there gathering dust and cobwebs the whole
time. So just imagine the gasp in

455
00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:22.359
the courtroom when the defense produces this
blowpoke that the I don't think we can

456
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:27.160
elaborate how much that the prosecution had
how often they had said the word blowpoke,

457
00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:32.880
and their whole case surrounded this blow
poke. Interestingly, though the jury

458
00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:36.440
so it was really great theater in
the courtroom. I think it was like

459
00:33:36.519 --> 00:33:39.160
a Perry Mason moment type of thing. But in reading, you know what

460
00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:44.680
the jury said afterwards, they had
actually already eliminated the blowpoke as a possible

461
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:46.440
weapon. They were like, yeah, that wouldn't have wouldn't have worked anyway

462
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:51.759
because it just wouldn't There wasn't enough
room to swing a blowpoke around. So

463
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:53.960
yeah, it was good theater,
I think in the courtroom, but I

464
00:33:54.039 --> 00:33:59.400
don't think it necessarily had a huge
impact on the jury. My understanding of

465
00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:04.440
the law is very primitive, but
I thought any information had to be shared

466
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:08.360
with the other side, and so
I'm kind of surprised that it was such

467
00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:13.960
a surprise to the prosecution. So
after Rudolph produced the blowpoke, that was

468
00:34:14.119 --> 00:34:16.719
the last thing the defense rested at
that point. Now, in his opening

469
00:34:16.760 --> 00:34:21.679
statement, Rudolph had promised that he
would call witnesses who would testify about the

470
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:27.360
relationship between Kathleen and Michael. He
promised a doctor who would testify about Kathleen's

471
00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:32.679
headaches and migraines, and he promised
marines that would testify about Michael's valor and

472
00:34:32.760 --> 00:34:37.159
leadership during battle. But he did
not call any of these. And again

473
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:39.360
we talked about this, I think
on the Scott Peterson case as well.

474
00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:44.079
But if you're an attorney and you
make a promise in your opening statement,

475
00:34:44.599 --> 00:34:46.239
you really need to deliver on that
promise. If you don't, I think

476
00:34:46.280 --> 00:34:51.000
the jury really looks at that as
you know, like you were just talking

477
00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:53.440
in the opening statement, but you
didn't follow through. So much time had

478
00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:58.719
elapsed, so the jury probably forgot
everything that was said in the opening statement

479
00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:02.519
that could be In the state's rebuttal
case, they called a doctor who was

480
00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:07.920
an expert in injury biomechanics. He
pointed out thirty three places noted in the

481
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:13.639
autopsy where there were bruises, abrasions, or lacerations. Based on that,

482
00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:19.159
he concluded at least fifteen different impact
sites. Also, he said that a

483
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:23.480
straight flat impact does not create lacerations
four to five inches long. Because of

484
00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:28.719
the curvature of the skull, the
object that struck Kathleen's head had to move

485
00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:32.199
across the surface, which a stare
can't do. We get a laceration when

486
00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:37.000
we hit hard and fast, and
if what strikes us isn't going fast enough,

487
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:40.400
we don't get a splitting type of
laceration. Her first fall didn't have

488
00:35:40.519 --> 00:35:45.920
enough height to create that type of
laceration, and she just wouldn't have had

489
00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:49.760
you know, her body wouldn't have
had the amount of energy to create a

490
00:35:49.880 --> 00:35:52.960
laceration that big. He also testified
that he was not getting paid for his

491
00:35:53.079 --> 00:35:55.719
work. He was volunteering because it
seemed like the right thing to do.

492
00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:59.679
And I think the jury, you
know, I think they're always suspicious of

493
00:35:59.719 --> 00:36:01.880
people who are I was just going
to say, experts, you know what

494
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:07.519
I think of expert witnesses. Yeah, So Rudolph presented in his closing argument

495
00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:12.840
his top ten list of reasonable doubts. So I'll talk to that real quick.

496
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:15.920
One the missing murder weapon isn't missing
and it wasn't used in a murder.

497
00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:22.800
Two there was no credible motive.
Doubtful there is a financial motive.

498
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:28.360
Three Michael and Kathleen were happily married
with no history of violence. Four Michael's

499
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:31.760
grief and shock were sincere, and
no one who was there disagreed. Five

500
00:36:31.960 --> 00:36:37.119
Kathleen's injuries are not consistent with a
beating. No skull fractures, no traumatic

501
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:40.599
brain injury. Six you don't beat
someone and let them crawl around and die

502
00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:45.039
of loss of blood after thirty or
forty minutes. Seven, the information and

503
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:51.000
documentation from the scene was not reliable. Agree with him on that. Eight

504
00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:54.559
the state relied on junk science like
blood spatter, which is a I think

505
00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:58.440
that is a good That is a
point that has been debated a lot,

506
00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:02.880
whether blood spatter is real science or
not. But we should say that the

507
00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:07.480
blood spatter and you will post a
picture. You've probably seen a picture.

508
00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:12.960
There is a substantial amount of blood
spatter and a fall down the stairs.

509
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:15.360
That's more blood spatter than you would
have from just falling down the stairs.

510
00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:21.320
Yeah. Number nine, the state
relied on emotion, guesswork, and conjecture.

511
00:37:22.119 --> 00:37:25.000
And number ten, the states of
it investigation suffered from tunnel vision.

512
00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:30.519
They really only looked at Michael as
a possibility. From the prosecution, they're

513
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:36.280
closing arguments focused on a few key
pieces of evidence. One the presence of

514
00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:40.000
red neurons and Kathleen's brain that could
not develop unless she were unconscious, and

515
00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:44.599
there was a significant deprivation of blood
to the brain which had to take at

516
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:47.519
least two hours. Two sitting out
by the pool and shorts and a T

517
00:37:47.639 --> 00:37:51.880
shirt for a couple of hours when
it was fifty one degrees and damp out

518
00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:57.239
three there were thirty eight lacerations,
bruises and contusions. How could that be

519
00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:01.599
possible even if there were two falls. The next point was why would a

520
00:38:01.639 --> 00:38:06.480
grieving spouse want to clean up if
he's just found his wife dead from a

521
00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:08.079
fall. You only do that if
you want to hide something, and there

522
00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:13.559
was evidence that he had tried to
clean up some of the blood. And

523
00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:17.519
then lastly the spatter inside of Michael
Schortz that they said could only have come

524
00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:22.599
if he was standing over her and
beating her. So finally the case went

525
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:25.239
to the jury. This turned out
to be a five month long trial,

526
00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:30.559
which was at that time at least
the longest criminal trial in Durham history.

527
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:35.159
On the first afternoon of deliberations,
the jury took a preliminary vote, as

528
00:38:35.239 --> 00:38:39.000
they usually do. Four were undecided, five were guilty, four were not

529
00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:45.119
guilty. So they say that again, four were undecided, five were guilty,

530
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:50.320
four were not guilty, So very
much split. Yeah, that adds

531
00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:54.599
up to thirteen. Though maybe I
made a typo there, I don't know,

532
00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:58.199
or maybe they had the alternative.
They might have an alternate, but

533
00:38:58.199 --> 00:39:00.719
I don't know think the alternats are
there varies from state to state. Baby

534
00:39:01.519 --> 00:39:06.320
One juror later said, quote,
on the first day, when we voted

535
00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:08.679
on one element, it was unanimous. It was not a fall. It

536
00:39:08.840 --> 00:39:15.800
was definitely a homicide. Unquote.
The jurors set aside Elizabeth Ratliffe. They

537
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:19.559
felt like any attempt to ascertain his
guilt in her death would just be a

538
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:22.199
distraction. Oh, well done,
jury, that was interesting, right.

539
00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:24.079
The judge allowed this, and the
jury was like, Eh, it's not

540
00:39:24.199 --> 00:39:29.440
really relevant. The jury discarded the
blowpoke evidence. They were not convinced it

541
00:39:29.559 --> 00:39:32.000
was the weapon. In any case, pretty advanced jury, it seems like

542
00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:37.679
a yeah. Doctor Radish's testimony about
the autopsy rang true for all of them,

543
00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:40.559
and for many she was the turning
point of the trial. The biggest

544
00:39:40.599 --> 00:39:45.559
obstacle in reaching a verdict was premeditation. So they charged him with first degree

545
00:39:45.639 --> 00:39:50.079
murder, and for whatever reason,
it was not an option to choose second

546
00:39:50.119 --> 00:39:53.320
degree murder. Hmm, they said. The jury later said that they probably

547
00:39:53.360 --> 00:39:57.559
would have taken second degree murder if
that had been an option, but it

548
00:39:57.760 --> 00:40:00.400
wasn't. I believe that it was
not premeditated. Yeah, I don't really

549
00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:04.639
think it was either. At the
end of day three of deliberations, they

550
00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:07.639
did another vote. This time the
vote was six guilty and six not guilty.

551
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:10.920
Wow. At the end of day
four it was ten guilty and two

552
00:40:12.039 --> 00:40:15.360
not guilty, And on day five
they finally reached a verdict of guilty.

553
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:21.239
Do you have any idea what evidence
swayed the people that believed he was not

554
00:40:21.320 --> 00:40:27.320
guilty. I don't know specifically what
convinced them at that point, but if

555
00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:30.159
they all, you know, if
you think about it early on, if

556
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:31.800
they all agreed it was homicide and
it wasn't a fall down the stairs,

557
00:40:31.960 --> 00:40:36.480
then there's not many other options left. Right Did someone break into the house

558
00:40:36.599 --> 00:40:39.639
or come into the house and killer
with no motive and not taking anything.

559
00:40:39.880 --> 00:40:44.440
That wouldn't make a lot of sense. So I think ultimately there weren't many

560
00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:49.400
other options if you put aside that
she died from a fall, or there

561
00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:52.360
are others that I might tell you
about in a minute or two. Yeah,

562
00:40:52.440 --> 00:41:00.360
we should talk about those other theories
or that other theory before we move

563
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:04.800
on to that. I did want
to mention the sentence was mandatory life in

564
00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:09.119
prison without pearl. Back to Dwayne
Deaver. We talked about him as of

565
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:14.679
witness during the trial. Dwayne Deavers, a blood spatter analysist who worked for

566
00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:19.079
the State Bureau of Investigation of North
Carolina, was the star witness for the

567
00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:22.920
prosecution during Michael Peterson's trial. He
was on the witness stand for days,

568
00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:27.679
making a case to jurors that Michael
had brutally beaten his wife to death.

569
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:32.320
In twenty eleven, Divers was fired
by the SBI after it was found that

570
00:41:32.440 --> 00:41:39.360
he had misrepresented his forensic expertise.
He had made quote material, misleading,

571
00:41:39.559 --> 00:41:46.760
and deliberately false testimony about bloodstained evidence. His experiments did not follow the scientific

572
00:41:46.920 --> 00:41:57.119
method his experiments he had his end
before his means. Yeah, he basically

573
00:41:57.239 --> 00:42:00.159
was trying to prove a theory.
Not well it was. I think the

574
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:05.639
most damning one was with Michael Schwartz, Like he did everything he could to

575
00:42:05.719 --> 00:42:10.679
get blood spatter up the leg of
someone's short He was accused of withholding exculpatory

576
00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:16.440
evidence. A man named Greg Taylor
was wrongly imprisoned for seventeen years when Devers

577
00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:22.239
failed to share blood test results with
the defense that would have exonerated him.

578
00:42:22.599 --> 00:42:24.840
So horrible, it's so horrible.
Yeah, and that was just you know,

579
00:42:24.920 --> 00:42:29.960
his own ego. Yeah, he
just wanted to win. You count

580
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:32.039
on these experts to know what,
because you know, you and I aren't

581
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:36.440
blood spatter experts, and the jury's
not blood spatter experts, so it's like

582
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:42.079
you count on them to tell the
truth. Devers had falsified his education and

583
00:42:42.280 --> 00:42:47.599
credentials. His degree was actually in
zoology and he had only taken two classes

584
00:42:47.719 --> 00:42:53.159
in blood stained analysis. Wow.
An in depth investigation into the SBI revealed

585
00:42:53.199 --> 00:42:58.719
that from nineteen eighty seven to two
thousand and three, misleading blood evidence was

586
00:42:58.840 --> 00:43:02.599
used over two hundred times. Thirty
four of those instances were by Devers.

587
00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:09.039
Wow. He later sued the state
for wrongful termination and was given thirty four

588
00:43:09.119 --> 00:43:15.639
months of back pay. Really,
yeah, that's surprising. In December of

589
00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:20.239
twenty eleven, eight years into his
prison sentence, a judge vacated the verdict

590
00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:24.840
and ordered that Michael Peterson received a
new trial. Michael paid a three hundred

591
00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:28.960
thousand dollars bond. Don't know where
he got that money, and he was

592
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:34.960
put under house arrest and wore an
ankle monitor for several years. I'm not

593
00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:39.000
sure what the what happened, but
there was like I think seven years where

594
00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:44.360
he was just under house arrest waiting
for a new trial. Michael Peterson was

595
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:47.760
given three choices by his attorney after
his conviction was overturned. He could have

596
00:43:47.800 --> 00:43:52.320
a new trial, he could plead
guilty, or he could take an Alford

597
00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:57.239
plea. In an Alford plea,
the defendant pleads guilty while maintaining their innocence

598
00:43:57.679 --> 00:44:04.000
and recognizes that the prosecution has sufficient
evidence to convict them of the crime should

599
00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:07.239
the case go to trial, and
Alford plea is often used by defendants when

600
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:10.480
the death penalty is at stake.
I think at Alfred plea is much like

601
00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:15.360
the blowpoke, Like no one had
heard of an Alford plea before this case,

602
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:17.119
and now everyone knows what an Alford
plea. Kind of yeah, does

603
00:44:17.159 --> 00:44:20.880
that make sense? I think that's
good. I mean it's basically like saying

604
00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:23.159
it's pleading guilty, but saying but
I'm not admitting I did it. I'm

605
00:44:23.239 --> 00:44:29.360
just gonna plead guilty. So Michael
decided not to risk another trial. It

606
00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:32.920
was scheduled for May eighth, twenty
seventeen, but on February seventh, twenty

607
00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:37.199
seventeen, Michael decided that he couldn't
put himself or his family through another trial

608
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:40.679
and entered an Alford plea. And
I don't really blame him for that either.

609
00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:43.800
I like a lot of people criticize
and say, well, if you're

610
00:44:43.880 --> 00:44:46.000
really innocent, you would never do
that, But gosh, I mean,

611
00:44:46.039 --> 00:44:49.679
he was like at that point,
he's an old man, like, you

612
00:44:49.719 --> 00:44:53.079
don't want to spend another five ten
years fighting this battle. He pled guilty

613
00:44:53.159 --> 00:45:00.199
to voluntary manslaughter in Kathleen's death,
maintaining innocence. The judge sentenced him him

614
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:04.000
to eighty six months in prison,
but he had already served every one hundred

615
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:07.679
months in prison, so he became
a free man. He said, quote,

616
00:45:07.800 --> 00:45:09.960
Accepting this Alford plea has been the
most difficult thing I've ever done.

617
00:45:10.360 --> 00:45:14.719
Ever, the most difficult thing I
ever did in my life was to sit

618
00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:17.920
through that trial and listen to the
lies in perjury, fake evidence, made

619
00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:22.079
up evidence, withheld evidence. So
many times I wanted to jump up and

620
00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:25.800
scream, liar, this is not
right, But you can't do that in

621
00:45:25.880 --> 00:45:31.480
court. Elford pleas are not admissible
in Michigan, New Jersey, or Indiana.

622
00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:36.719
The Elford plea isn't always available,
and it's not always offered by the

623
00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:39.079
prosecution or approved by the judge,
but they are a good way to avoid

624
00:45:39.159 --> 00:45:45.119
a costly trial where the outcome is
otherwise left up to the jury. Interesting.

625
00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:50.440
So the difference between no contest and
the Alford plea, there's they're kind

626
00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:54.119
of similar. In a no contest
plea, the defendant doesn't admit guilt or

627
00:45:54.239 --> 00:46:00.880
innocent, but acknowledges that the prosecution
has enough evidence to convict and it's likely

628
00:46:00.920 --> 00:46:04.480
if the case goes to trial,
the outcome will not be favorable to the

629
00:46:04.679 --> 00:46:07.880
defendant. So they're not entering a
plea of guilty or innocence. Okay,

630
00:46:07.960 --> 00:46:10.400
that sounds almost exactly the same,
But they're not entering a plea. You're

631
00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:15.320
just saying no contest. A defendant
waives the right to a jury trial and

632
00:46:15.519 --> 00:46:17.599
enters a plea of no contest to
the charges. A judge may accept the

633
00:46:17.639 --> 00:46:22.119
plea or enter a conviction. Does
that make sense. Yeah. In two

634
00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:28.039
thousand and three, Caitlin Atwater filed
a wrongful death lawsuit against Michael Peterson for

635
00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:30.679
the death of her mother. The
case was settled in February two thousand and

636
00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:35.760
eight for twenty five million dollars.
Michael obviously did not have that kind of

637
00:46:35.880 --> 00:46:39.679
money, but if he ever tries
to profit from the retelling of his and

638
00:46:39.800 --> 00:46:45.320
Kathleen's story, the money would go
directly to Caitlin. Michael did write two

639
00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:50.280
books in twenty nineteen, Behind the
Staircase and Beneath the Staircase. All proceeds

640
00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:54.039
were donated to charity. Isn't that
crazy? That doesn't seem fair, though,

641
00:46:54.199 --> 00:46:59.400
Like, how can you just make
that decision? Like I I don't

642
00:46:59.400 --> 00:47:00.840
know how much he made off these
books, but let's just say he made

643
00:47:00.840 --> 00:47:05.159
one hundred thousand dollars. He can
just say I'm going to donate it to

644
00:47:05.239 --> 00:47:09.800
charity instead of giving it to Caitlin. Even it's shady, it doesn't seem

645
00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:15.639
horrible. Yeah, I don't get
it. I mean, you're never going

646
00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:21.119
to understand Michael Peterson. I think
that's that's the gist of this. Behind

647
00:47:21.159 --> 00:47:24.360
the Staircase was his retelling of the
events leading up to Kathleen's death and the

648
00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:30.000
aftermath. And Beyond the Staircase I
think told more of Michael's story of his

649
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:37.199
life in the military and whatnot.
That brings us We're almost we're almost done,

650
00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:40.639
but we will not be done unless
we talk about owl theory. Oh

651
00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:45.960
you're ready, I am ready.
A friend and neighbor of the Peterson's Larry

652
00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:51.719
Pollard, also an attorney, introduced
the so called owl theory to Michael's defense

653
00:47:51.800 --> 00:47:57.159
team. But he gave them this
theory like a day or two before the

654
00:47:57.199 --> 00:48:00.159
closing, so they really couldn't use
it. They couldn't introduced any new evidence

655
00:48:00.199 --> 00:48:05.679
at the time. Kathleen was found
with strands of her own hair and both

656
00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:08.719
hands. You mentioned this earlier,
but I'm just gonna summarize it. Her

657
00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:15.760
left hand contained three small feathers.
Polard and several ornithological experts noted the pattern

658
00:48:15.920 --> 00:48:21.639
shape of the wounds on Kathleen's head
are more consistent with talents, not an

659
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:27.400
object that caused the blunt force trauma. And if you look at the pictures,

660
00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:30.559
you really can see I can see
maybe you can't see it. Two

661
00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:37.000
there's two kind of like it's like
a trident, kind of three pronged injuries

662
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:38.840
to the back of her eye.
I could definitely see that. The barred

663
00:48:38.880 --> 00:48:45.039
owl is common in and around Durham, and they were known to live in

664
00:48:45.079 --> 00:48:51.360
the woods surrounding the Peterson's property.
Several ornithologists agree that Kathleen's injuries were consistent

665
00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:53.760
with an owl attack, although some
also said that they didn't. It was

666
00:48:54.119 --> 00:48:58.159
split, but I think more people
said yeah, and I'll absolutely could have

667
00:48:58.239 --> 00:49:02.880
done this. I should mention that
the feathers found on Kathleen have not been

668
00:49:04.400 --> 00:49:08.239
analyzed and have not been determined to
definitely be from an owl. A lot

669
00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:10.800
of people said, Oh, it
could have been from a pillow or a

670
00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:17.000
comforter or some object around the house. Barred owls are smaller versions of the

671
00:49:17.079 --> 00:49:22.480
great horned owl. They prefer to
live in a forest environment in hollow trees.

672
00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:27.039
Most are grayish brown. With their
feathers they have like a striped effect.

673
00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:30.360
Bard owls are typically less than two
pounds, with a wingspan of forty

674
00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:35.159
three inches, and can fly at
speeds of forty miles per hour. Wow,

675
00:49:35.239 --> 00:49:37.440
so they're small, but they're kind
of mighty huge. Yeah. I

676
00:49:37.480 --> 00:49:43.719
had a friend that hit an owl
like at night in driving and she said

677
00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:47.559
it was just the most horrifying thing. Oh. Bart owl's unique feather structure.

678
00:49:47.559 --> 00:49:52.400
They're serrated on one side and fringed
on the other. It allows them

679
00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:55.480
to fly silently at night, so
it's pretty easy to sneak up on someone.

680
00:49:57.480 --> 00:50:00.920
In a twenty fourteen study published in
the journal Experimental Biology, it was

681
00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:06.039
determined that an owl weighing less than
a pound is able to pounce on a

682
00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:08.719
mouse with a force greater than one
hundred and fifty times the weight of a

683
00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:14.159
mouse. If a one hundred and
seventy five pound human were struck in the

684
00:50:14.199 --> 00:50:17.039
same intensity, it would feel like
being struck by a thirteen ton truck.

685
00:50:17.880 --> 00:50:22.440
Kathleen was only one hundred and twenty
pounds, but still, the point being

686
00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:27.880
that that impact of an owl on
the back of your head could be described

687
00:50:27.880 --> 00:50:31.960
as blump forest trauma. Bard owls
are quote aggressive owls, and they're highly

688
00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:39.320
territorial, says Jonathan Slought, a
wildlife biologist with Wildlife Conservation Society. They

689
00:50:39.639 --> 00:50:45.880
traditionally nest in cavities of trees.
Unfortunately, these owl human confrontations are more

690
00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:51.559
common now because of the shrinking availability
of dense forests that allow owls to be

691
00:50:51.679 --> 00:50:54.159
more secluded. The more you reduce
the places where an owl can nest,

692
00:50:54.199 --> 00:50:59.000
the more likely it's going to be
nesting somewhere in close proximity to humans.

693
00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:05.679
Sadly, all attacks seem more common
in the Pacific north Northwest, but they

694
00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:09.719
occur all around the US. What
do you think about owl theory so far?

695
00:51:10.960 --> 00:51:16.639
I'm a little skeptical. Yeah,
Kathleen may have been putting out some

696
00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:22.960
Christmas decorations. The decorations were found
the next morning on the lawn and the

697
00:51:22.039 --> 00:51:27.480
police did put tape around them.
Michael said that he didn't remember them being

698
00:51:27.639 --> 00:51:32.320
out previously in the day. So
there was like a sleigh with like these

699
00:51:32.599 --> 00:51:37.440
reindeer that were made out of birch, and an owl could have thought that

700
00:51:37.519 --> 00:51:39.519
that was prey. Do you know, did the decorations Did they come like

701
00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:45.360
from the garage or like somewhere where
maybe the owl could have been nesting or

702
00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:50.559
something like that, or you just
think it was that. I really don't

703
00:51:50.599 --> 00:51:52.199
know. I think she just walked
out of the house at night. And

704
00:51:53.239 --> 00:51:55.679
also, like you know, the
wreath was up by the gate. She

705
00:51:55.760 --> 00:51:59.119
could have walked to the gate to
put the wreath up. We don't really

706
00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:01.119
know, but yeah, we do
know that there there were drops of her

707
00:52:01.159 --> 00:52:05.800
blood on the walkway. How else
with the drops of blood gotten there,

708
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:09.079
and there was a door on the
blood on the door jam right, and

709
00:52:09.280 --> 00:52:14.400
a pretty significant amount on the back
of the door. I'm going to give

710
00:52:14.400 --> 00:52:17.280
you a little more evidence to support
this theory. In her hands and one

711
00:52:17.360 --> 00:52:21.719
hand she had thirty eight hairs of
her own, and the other hand she

712
00:52:21.800 --> 00:52:23.920
had twenty five. That's a significant
amount of hair. So you can almost

713
00:52:23.960 --> 00:52:28.840
picture her with her hands pulling out
her own hair like kind of you know,

714
00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:30.760
swatting at this owl that could have
potentially been in the back of her

715
00:52:30.880 --> 00:52:34.920
head. Also, in her hands
you had mentioned this earlier, there were

716
00:52:34.960 --> 00:52:37.360
some pine needles. How else would
the pine needles have gotten in her hand.

717
00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:43.559
In the hair, there were microscopic
bird feathers. There was the twig

718
00:52:43.719 --> 00:52:46.000
with the dried blood. And the
wounds you had mentioned. There were over

719
00:52:46.119 --> 00:52:50.239
thirty wounds on her body that are
kind of hard to explain. They're almost

720
00:52:50.280 --> 00:52:53.199
like pockmark wounds that would be maybe
consistent with the beak. She had her

721
00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:58.559
around her eyes, her elbows like
again, you know, picture her with

722
00:52:58.679 --> 00:53:01.599
her arms up and her elbows,
you know, would have been vulnerable to

723
00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:06.800
an attack. The wound on her
head we mentioned this, you know,

724
00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:10.840
the two wounds two kind of distinctive
trident patterns like you and an owl.

725
00:53:12.079 --> 00:53:15.679
We were talking about this earlier.
So an owl, once they put their

726
00:53:15.039 --> 00:53:20.440
talents and they're grasping something, clutching
something like if they were clutching a you

727
00:53:20.519 --> 00:53:24.039
know, a fish or a mouse
or another small prey, they can't just

728
00:53:24.199 --> 00:53:30.000
release their talents. They it's grasped
firmly, and to release their talents they

729
00:53:30.079 --> 00:53:35.840
have to extend their arms fully and
then that's how their talents work. They

730
00:53:36.039 --> 00:53:39.519
are released that way. So the
attack happened at night, when owls are

731
00:53:39.639 --> 00:53:45.000
most active. It was also December, which is the beginning of mating season

732
00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:49.679
for owls, and they're definitely more
aggressive during this time. I thought they

733
00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:52.679
would be more aggressive during their nesting, which would be like in the springtime.

734
00:53:53.119 --> 00:53:57.880
Oh, I forgot that you're an
owl expert. I'm sorry, Yeah,

735
00:53:58.719 --> 00:54:04.039
I forget. What about your degree
in ornithology. A lot of people

736
00:54:04.119 --> 00:54:07.440
dismiss owl theory and laugh it off, but owls do attack thousands of people

737
00:54:07.559 --> 00:54:13.719
each year. I couldn't find another
case of anyone being killed by an owl,

738
00:54:14.000 --> 00:54:16.039
but I would like to. I
think this is important to mention Kathleen

739
00:54:16.119 --> 00:54:22.440
didn't die from an owl attack.
She she died from from bleeding out,

740
00:54:22.280 --> 00:54:25.920
and she likely sat at the bottom
of the stairs for an hour or two,

741
00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:31.599
you know, causing causing her to
bleed out, and had her husband,

742
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:36.360
she had a better husband who wouldn't
have fallen asleep by the pool.

743
00:54:37.239 --> 00:54:42.559
She would have received medical attention,
and she wouldn't have died. I'm still

744
00:54:42.599 --> 00:54:45.400
not selling you, am I I
am not. I'm not one hundred percent

745
00:54:45.519 --> 00:54:50.239
opposed to the owl theory. I
am. I think it is plausible,

746
00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:52.920
and I think honestly, if I
had been on a jury and that had

747
00:54:52.960 --> 00:54:58.760
been presented, it might have given
me enough reasonable doubt to not convict him.

748
00:54:59.360 --> 00:55:01.760
But hurt owl theory, I was
like, you are effing crazy.

749
00:55:01.880 --> 00:55:06.719
There's no way that that is a
plausible theory. But if you look at

750
00:55:06.719 --> 00:55:09.199
the wounds, it is kind of
hard to dismiss it. Yeah, and

751
00:55:09.559 --> 00:55:13.880
okay again, like the blood spatter
is is also hard to explain with the

752
00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:17.239
owl attack too. But I she
could have been swatting at her, you

753
00:55:17.280 --> 00:55:21.480
know, her head. Her head
was definitely at this point, you know,

754
00:55:21.639 --> 00:55:25.119
she had enough energy to get into
the house owl. Some people have

755
00:55:25.239 --> 00:55:28.519
said, oh, the owl attack
happened in the house. There's I don't

756
00:55:28.519 --> 00:55:30.519
think there's anywhere that an owl could
have entered the home. There would have

757
00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:36.280
been war feathers and more damage.
Yeah, So here's my so, I

758
00:55:36.360 --> 00:55:39.519
think there is some plausibility. But
the things I have that I'm really struggle

759
00:55:39.559 --> 00:55:44.320
with on the owl theory are one, how could there not be a trail

760
00:55:44.360 --> 00:55:47.599
of blood from like if she came
in the front door and then made her

761
00:55:47.679 --> 00:55:52.280
way to that the bottom of the
staircase or to the top of the staircase

762
00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:55.000
and fell down or whatever. Why
was there no blood trail from the front

763
00:55:55.039 --> 00:55:59.960
door into the stairs. I thought
there was a few spots of blood.

764
00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:02.719
Not really, I mean not well. And versely, how did how did

765
00:56:02.719 --> 00:56:07.639
the blood then get outside of the
door? And how are the excuse me,

766
00:56:07.280 --> 00:56:10.760
I'm not done. How are their
droplets of blood on the walkway that

767
00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:15.280
could have come from Michael could have
gone out to meet the paramedics and he

768
00:56:15.519 --> 00:56:19.559
was blood. I don't know.
I don't think he would have dripped blood

769
00:56:19.559 --> 00:56:21.559
in a droplet. Yeah, no, I mean that, you're right,

770
00:56:21.639 --> 00:56:24.679
it's a it's a definitely some question
there. But then the other thing is

771
00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:29.400
that, so the shape of the
wounds, You're right, the shape of

772
00:56:29.440 --> 00:56:32.719
the wounds look like talons or a
trident shape or whatever it might be.

773
00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:37.079
But that could also come from being
hit on the head with an object like

774
00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:42.559
the wounds, as I think doctor
Henry Lee explained it. Henry, I

775
00:56:42.679 --> 00:56:45.239
know he's discredited in a lot of
ways, but I think this is true.

776
00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:49.239
Is that if you get hit by
something in the head, it causes

777
00:56:49.320 --> 00:56:51.840
like a split, right, it
causes the head I'm not sure. I

778
00:56:51.920 --> 00:56:54.159
think that might be bad science.
I'm not sure. I did a lot

779
00:56:54.199 --> 00:56:58.400
of googling of head wounds yesterday.
Oh you googled it? You did,

780
00:56:59.119 --> 00:57:01.599
yes? And is that yeah?
I mean, you know, if you

781
00:57:01.639 --> 00:57:06.199
get hit by something, it can
split like it can cause like a tear.

782
00:57:06.519 --> 00:57:09.880
And why was there no brain damage? And why if there's a there's

783
00:57:09.920 --> 00:57:14.079
a point when you can get hit
by something that is hard enough to cause

784
00:57:14.199 --> 00:57:17.760
elaceration but not hard enough to cause
the skull fracture, and the brain was

785
00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:22.639
bruised. There was bruising on the
brain. So I don't know. I'm

786
00:57:22.679 --> 00:57:27.679
just saying I think that the I
think that the owl theory is slightly plausible,

787
00:57:27.760 --> 00:57:31.599
but unlikely. How do you explain
the lash the excuse me, the

788
00:57:31.719 --> 00:57:38.800
lacerations and the injuries to the beak
like injuries to her. The lacerations could

789
00:57:38.880 --> 00:57:42.920
happen if you get hit in the
head and it causes a split that can

790
00:57:42.960 --> 00:57:45.840
cause me we're talking about the injuries
on the back of your skull, I'm

791
00:57:45.880 --> 00:57:50.639
talking about the her facial injuries,
which are consistent with the beak. Yeah,

792
00:57:50.679 --> 00:57:52.559
those I don't I don't have an
explanation because we don't know what the

793
00:57:53.199 --> 00:57:58.000
murder if he did kill her,
we don't know what the murder weapon was.

794
00:57:58.159 --> 00:58:01.360
So it's hard to say why.
If so, You're you're saying that

795
00:58:01.519 --> 00:58:07.719
Michael beat Kathleen in some manner.
Yes, why didn't he have more blood

796
00:58:07.719 --> 00:58:10.000
on him? He had a fair
amount of blood on He did not have

797
00:58:10.039 --> 00:58:15.000
blood on not a lot of blood
on his shirt consistent with the blood that

798
00:58:15.159 --> 00:58:20.800
was the blood spatter. Like if
he had a weapon that he was wielding

799
00:58:21.039 --> 00:58:22.760
and he hit her, he would
have had more blood on his body.

800
00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:28.360
That true. True? Yeah,
Okay, trust me. I do not

801
00:58:28.559 --> 00:58:31.079
like Michael. I don't think that
he's an innocent person in all of this.

802
00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:36.719
But yeah, you know, either
all of the theories are problems.

803
00:58:36.880 --> 00:58:39.400
There are flaws with every one of
the theories that that is the big problem

804
00:58:39.480 --> 00:58:44.519
in this case. Y for sure, and there were literal like bird feathers

805
00:58:44.800 --> 00:58:47.400
found. I also want to say, like, right, they were small,

806
00:58:49.400 --> 00:58:53.599
and also no one thought that this
was really a plausible theory until years

807
00:58:53.679 --> 00:58:58.679
later, literal years, so investigators
might not have been looking for any feathers

808
00:58:58.920 --> 00:59:01.480
either. Yeah, for sure,
I'm going to give you a quick update

809
00:59:01.519 --> 00:59:07.760
on how Michael and Kathleen's kids are
doing. Caitlin seems like she has fared

810
00:59:07.800 --> 00:59:10.840
pretty well good. She is married
with two children. She lives in Virginia.

811
00:59:12.079 --> 00:59:15.639
In an interview with Indie Week in
twenty seventeen, Caitlyn said, quote,

812
00:59:15.719 --> 00:59:19.440
the only thing that I have to
say about the trial and all the

813
00:59:19.480 --> 00:59:22.800
subsequent fallout is that if there was
any closure to possibly come from all this,

814
00:59:23.039 --> 00:59:28.239
it came after sitting through the entire
trial and listening day after day to

815
00:59:28.360 --> 00:59:30.639
all the evidence on both sides end
quote. That has been really hard for

816
00:59:30.880 --> 00:59:35.039
Oh. Yeah, heard is set
through that, especially sitting on the opposite

817
00:59:35.079 --> 00:59:37.639
side of the courtroom from her.
Yeah, and I'm sure there's a lot

818
00:59:37.719 --> 00:59:40.760
of feelings there. I don't believe
they've ever spoken, I guess, which

819
00:59:40.840 --> 00:59:46.239
is heartbreaking. Margaret works as a
documentary filmmaker in California. She was very

820
00:59:46.320 --> 00:59:51.119
angry when Michael appeared on the Doctor
of Phil show and called it a violation

821
00:59:51.280 --> 00:59:54.880
of her family. She has been
an intensive therapy to heal from her family's

822
00:59:54.920 --> 01:00:00.880
trauma for years. She began a
nonprofit to help other former documentary subjects heel.

823
01:00:01.519 --> 01:00:07.519
Margaret co produced a documentary called Subject
that explores what happens to people after

824
01:00:07.639 --> 01:00:12.719
documentaries featuring their stories are released.
That made me pause, yeah a second.

825
01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:17.159
Martha lives in Colorado where she owns
her own practice working as a licensed

826
01:00:17.199 --> 01:00:22.760
clinical social worker. She works with
young children and their families, and she

827
01:00:22.960 --> 01:00:28.679
has suffered severe anxiety, panic attacks, and nightmares since Kathleen's death. And

828
01:00:29.639 --> 01:00:36.480
Margaret and Martha still both wholeheartedly support
Michael Clayton. Peterson lives in Maryland with

829
01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:39.239
his wife, Becky and their two
sons. He works as an electrical engineer,

830
01:00:39.360 --> 01:00:42.880
so it's good that he has straightened. He's the one that went to

831
01:00:42.960 --> 01:00:45.760
prison for four years. He shuns
the spotlight, but remains close to his

832
01:00:45.880 --> 01:00:51.880
dad and chooses to believe that he's
innocent. Quote. No one knows what

833
01:00:51.960 --> 01:00:54.599
happened that night, and no one
will ever know. Clayton has admitted that

834
01:00:54.760 --> 01:01:00.920
he was an alcoholic. He's a
recovered alcoholic and Patty, his first wife,

835
01:01:01.559 --> 01:01:06.360
had been living together since his release
in prison in a house with no

836
01:01:06.519 --> 01:01:09.519
stairs. That's interesting, though,
I did not know they were. Are

837
01:01:09.599 --> 01:01:15.360
they together together or just living together? I think they just I think they

838
01:01:15.239 --> 01:01:20.119
support each other and they help each
other. I don't think there's a romantic

839
01:01:20.199 --> 01:01:25.000
relationship. But Patty sadly died in
twenty twenty one after a cardiac incident.

840
01:01:25.760 --> 01:01:29.360
And this is the twist you've been
waiting for. Oh yeah, I've been

841
01:01:29.360 --> 01:01:32.280
waiting for a twist. Todd Peterson
made a video where he said he now

842
01:01:32.360 --> 01:01:36.639
believes his father is a murderer,
not just a murderer. He called his

843
01:01:36.760 --> 01:01:40.480
dad a serial killer what and he
said that he killed Elizabeth Ratliffe Kathleen and

844
01:01:40.599 --> 01:01:45.800
his own mother, Patty. He
claimed that Michael withheld medical care from Patty

845
01:01:45.920 --> 01:01:51.239
while she was having a cardiac event. Isn't that crazy? I I am

846
01:01:51.840 --> 01:01:55.519
blown away. I did not see
that coming at all. The Todd's video

847
01:01:55.679 --> 01:02:00.639
is over eleven minutes long. And
when I first saw it last night,

848
01:02:00.719 --> 01:02:05.960
it's very raw, it's very emotional, and I was hesitant to share it.

849
01:02:06.559 --> 01:02:10.159
But Todd wants it shared. He
says in the video, please share,

850
01:02:10.400 --> 01:02:13.880
So we are going to play a
brief clip of it. Yeah,

851
01:02:13.920 --> 01:02:15.760
the whole video is how long?
Did it's like twelve minutes long or something?

852
01:02:15.880 --> 01:02:20.440
So, well, we should link
to it because it is pretty interesting

853
01:02:20.519 --> 01:02:22.719
to see. But let's just play
a short clip and then let's talk about

854
01:02:22.760 --> 01:02:27.280
it a bit. Sure, I'm
how to call the cops my father's the

855
01:02:27.320 --> 01:02:34.159
murder of my mother, Trish Peterson, and now today realized that the motivation

856
01:02:34.400 --> 01:02:38.320
was money, just like I now
believe Kathleen. I didn't really realize it

857
01:02:38.360 --> 01:02:45.880
all until I'm trying to break my
sobriety. Coles, my own father try

858
01:02:45.920 --> 01:02:47.800
to break my sobriety. That's actually
I figured out as a serial color.

859
01:02:49.599 --> 01:02:52.760
Until then, I was blind and
stupid and thought he won't hurt a family

860
01:02:52.920 --> 01:02:58.119
number, And well, sure,
if you want to break your own son's

861
01:02:58.440 --> 01:03:01.920
sobriety, do anything. I was
a fall down drunk. I'm not a

862
01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:07.719
good guy. I'm not a good
guy I am now, But if she

863
01:03:07.840 --> 01:03:12.920
judged me against my whole lifetime,
I've done some horrible shit former alcoholic drug

864
01:03:12.920 --> 01:03:15.880
addicts. I have to say,
I'm I'm like blown away by that fine

865
01:03:15.880 --> 01:03:20.960
because I never would have thought Todd
would have turned. He obviously has some

866
01:03:21.039 --> 01:03:24.239
issues. Like you said, he's
kind of rambling and talking a lot about

867
01:03:24.519 --> 01:03:29.159
his alcoholism and things like that.
And when I saw it, maybe wonder

868
01:03:29.280 --> 01:03:31.960
is he is he drunk or is
he on something on the video because he's

869
01:03:32.039 --> 01:03:36.880
very agitated and rambling. But it
reminds me of other people that I've known

870
01:03:37.079 --> 01:03:43.280
that are recovering alcoholics when they're you
know, spiraling. He seems like he's

871
01:03:43.280 --> 01:03:47.199
spiraling. But his impetus for recording
this video was he found out some things

872
01:03:47.199 --> 01:03:53.800
about his dad and some of the
financial issues, and he was he was

873
01:03:53.840 --> 01:03:59.079
stealing from his mom's estate essentially,
which is so gross. Like at this

874
01:03:59.159 --> 01:04:01.800
point healing from you, and Michael
was trying to kind of keep things from

875
01:04:01.880 --> 01:04:04.599
him, I think, And in
the video of Todd says like he's going

876
01:04:04.639 --> 01:04:08.519
to call the police, and I
don't think anything ever came of it.

877
01:04:09.639 --> 01:04:13.960
But it's it's sad, it's it's
traumatic to see it. It really just

878
01:04:14.039 --> 01:04:18.199
shows how deep and wide this family's
trauma is. Oh yeah, whether it's

879
01:04:18.760 --> 01:04:24.079
whether Michael killed these women are not, it's you know, these kids have

880
01:04:24.760 --> 01:04:28.039
struck and they're not kids there,
you know, they're adults. But they've

881
01:04:28.039 --> 01:04:30.679
all been put through the ringer.
I mean, it's really sad. Yeah,

882
01:04:30.719 --> 01:04:33.920
if you want to see the whole
video of Todd Peterson, look in

883
01:04:33.960 --> 01:04:38.079
our show notes and we will link
to it. Yeah. Great, Well,

884
01:04:38.079 --> 01:04:43.519
if you are still with us,
congratulations, he's been sleeping. I

885
01:04:43.559 --> 01:04:45.840
can't believe we've done two three part
episodes in a row. And that wasn't

886
01:04:45.880 --> 01:04:49.840
our intention. It really was.
I think this case and the Scott and

887
01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:55.000
Lacy Peters and case are both so
complicated and so involved, and there's so

888
01:04:55.119 --> 01:04:58.639
much information out there that we had
to make an exception for these two.

889
01:04:58.679 --> 01:05:01.440
And hopefully it's been interesting. I've
found it super interesting to go through this,

890
01:05:01.639 --> 01:05:05.079
and I've learned a lot. And
uh, this is definitely one of

891
01:05:05.119 --> 01:05:09.800
the more baffling ones that we've ever
covered. I mean, I really I

892
01:05:09.960 --> 01:05:13.320
do feel like he is guilty,
but I do not feel one hundred percent

893
01:05:13.440 --> 01:05:15.239
And I don't know if I would
have been able to convict him. I

894
01:05:15.320 --> 01:05:19.719
do think there is some possibility of
the owl theory. It's definitely a plausible

895
01:05:19.760 --> 01:05:25.320
theory. Yeah, and I guess
I'm not really sure. If I had

896
01:05:25.360 --> 01:05:29.440
to say, I probably wouldn't have
convicted him. But remember the jury did

897
01:05:29.519 --> 01:05:32.199
not have that all evidence. Yeah, so I don't know. I hate

898
01:05:32.239 --> 01:05:34.880
to say that I am undecided,
but I think I am. I think

899
01:05:34.920 --> 01:05:39.519
I'm undecided. Michael Peterson is guilty
of being a horrible person. Yeah,

900
01:05:39.880 --> 01:05:43.039
you can't convict it. You can't
convince me otherwise. But I'm not sure

901
01:05:43.079 --> 01:05:45.679
if he's a killer or not.
Yeah, and rest in peace, Kathleen

902
01:05:45.880 --> 01:05:49.880
and Elizabeth Ratliffe as well well,
and Patty Patty now too, Patty,

903
01:05:50.039 --> 01:05:55.079
yeah as well, so well.
And yeah, that is if he did

904
01:05:55.159 --> 01:05:59.920
withhold treatment to Patty, that's a
horrible thing to do, because Patty was

905
01:06:00.679 --> 01:06:02.480
I think Patty was really good to
him. Yeah, but enough about Michael

906
01:06:02.519 --> 01:06:08.039
Peterson. I think we're really excited
to never talk about Michael Peters. We

907
01:06:08.039 --> 01:06:12.199
still we still have another tough Peterson
to get through. I'm pretty sure that

908
01:06:12.320 --> 01:06:16.440
Drew will only be two parts all, probably not one, possibly one,

909
01:06:16.519 --> 01:06:20.440
but definitely not three. All right, thanks for hanging in the here.

910
01:06:20.519 --> 01:06:25.519
Yeah, thank you everybody for listening. We really really appreciate each and every

911
01:06:25.559 --> 01:06:30.599
one of you. We sure do
follow us on social media. Our brains

912
01:06:30.599 --> 01:06:35.360
are fried there sitting here for us
eight hours, but definitely we would love

913
01:06:35.400 --> 01:06:39.199
it if you follow us, we
would love any feedback you have. Email

914
01:06:39.320 --> 01:06:42.440
us at Lovemary Kill at gmail dot
com. I would love to hear what

915
01:06:42.519 --> 01:06:45.199
you guys think about this case,
so please let us know what you think

916
01:06:45.280 --> 01:06:47.719
and if you think all theory is
plausible. I don't know if I did

917
01:06:47.760 --> 01:06:51.960
a spectacular job presenting the evidence for
it and against it, but I really

918
01:06:53.000 --> 01:06:55.960
do think that is That's where I
would land if I had to. I'm

919
01:06:56.000 --> 01:06:59.800
sorry we sized that I was done
with Michael Peterson. I'm still babbling,

920
01:06:59.840 --> 01:07:01.440
okay, okay. And the next
time we do a three part case.

921
01:07:01.480 --> 01:07:05.039
If you'd like to hear all three
parts at once, support us on Patreon,

922
01:07:05.119 --> 01:07:10.320
Patreon dot com, slash Love Mary
Kill so early access to episodes.

923
01:07:10.360 --> 01:07:13.239
If we do multipart episodes, we
published them all at the same time,

924
01:07:13.320 --> 01:07:16.239
and we do a bonus episode every
month. Yep, yep, all right,

925
01:07:16.280 --> 01:07:19.079
until next time. We love you
guys. Don't kill your husband.

926
01:07:19.239 --> 01:07:20.039
Don't kill your wife.