Feb. 24, 2025

Kimberly and Christopher Vaughn - Part 2

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In the early hours of Thursday, June 14, 2007, just before sunrise, 32-year-old Christopher Vaughn was found limping along a rural road near Channahon, Illinois searching for help after he had sustained non-life-threatening gunshot wounds to his left thigh and left wrist. Vaughn, a devoted husband to his wife, Kimberly, 34, and a loving father to their three children—12-year-old Abigayle, 11-year-old Cassandra, and 8-year-old Blake—flagged down a passerby at 5:18 a.m. and asked him to call 911. Tragically, when the police arrived on the scene, they discovered Kim and the three children were brutally slain inside the family’s red 2004 Ford Expedition SUV, parked on a service road just off Interstate 55. The devastating tragedy raised one important question. Which parent killed their beautiful, young children? Did this loving mother kill her family and then turn the gun on herself or did Chris Vaughn attempt to cover up his own unthinkable crime?

Today's snack: The Cleveland Caramel Corn Co. popcorn (thanks Shannon!)

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WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Tina, and I'm rich. And if there's one

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thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage.

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It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill.

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You mean welcome to Chris Mary Kill. Get it. We've

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had a lot of chriss so.

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I didn't get it. I'm a little slow. I forgot

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what case we were talking about. We have had a

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lot of Chris's thought, you're right.

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Yeah, Chris, and wh Chris Coleman, Oh yeah, Chris Coleman. Chris,

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help me out, Help me out.

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I don't have idea. I can't remember these things. No,

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there was at Chris w of course, how could we

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forget Christmas?

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And today we're back at it with Chris mall On. Yeah.

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The other day I was talking to Kylie, my bestie

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from Primetime Crime, and we were talking about Chris Vaughan

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because we really do talk about true crime together. She said, quote,

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He's the dang worst.

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Some harsh words from Kylie.

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Kylie is from Texas. I think she could have said

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a lot worse, but yeah, she just said he's the

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dang worst. Well, I did bring you a snack? Oh good,

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well I didn't bring you a snack. Our lovely listener,

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Shannon sent us a snack so sweet, so kind, So, Jenna.

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I've been waiting for this.

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Yeah, it's We've had it for a couple of weeks.

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But she sent us some popcorn, she says, three bags

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of gourmet popcorn from the Cleveland I guess it's the

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Cleveland Caramel Corn Company. Yes, so different flavors of caramel corn.

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One is gourmet Dill pickle, one is Gourmet Grinch Mix,

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and one is Gourmet Cleveland Mix, which I'm gonna call

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about it. It looks a little like the Chicago So

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Chicago is known for caramel. Yeah, but this does look

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like it's a white cheddar. So it doesn't look like

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it's much like Garrett's because it's white and caramel. It's

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not like Garrett's is like the right yellow.

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And what is the Grinch mix?

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You said it is cherry and green apple. I think

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Shannon said this is her sister's favorite, and it's a

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Christmas mix, but it's it's still good.

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Okay, We're gonna try all of them.

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Yeah, of course we're gonna try all of them.

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We'll be right back.

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So what did you think about the Cleveland Caramel Corn Company.

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I think it's really good.

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I think it's really good too.

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Yeah, I mean some of the flavors I like better

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than others. And the Cleveland mix I thought was really

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good and it was pretty different. I would get it again, Yeah, definitely,

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I would get that. The Grinch mix was it cherry

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and green apple? Really interesting. I actually liked it more

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than I thought I would. They'll pickle flavor not so much.

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I really don't like that.

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I loved the dill pickle. I really think I love

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dill pickles, love them, and you do not. You're a

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sweet pickle guy, and I hate sweet pickles. It's so weird.

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I don't know how a week it work, but we do. Yeah,

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really good. I've been thinking we need to go away.

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We have not gone away for a weekend, and I

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have been thinking about going to Cleveland for a weekend.

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It's been a long time since we've been there.

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Go to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

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Maybe we've been it's been a long time since we've

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been there.

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That was awesome. Thanks so much, Shannon.

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Well, you have to rate them like for a second

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and third, well.

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I will give for sure. The first one is the

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Cleveland Mix. I'd give that ten out of ten. The

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Grinch Mix I would give eight out of ten, and

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the Dill Pickle mix go three out of ten. No,

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I just don't know.

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The Dill Pickle was my favorite. I'd give it ten

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out of ten. The Cleveland Mix, which is it awful

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like the Chicago Mix, I would give that a nine

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out of ten, and the Grinch Mix I would give

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an eight out of ten. But hopefully we'll go to

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Cleveland soon and we'll be able to check it out

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in person. Yeah, there are BUCkies on the way, you

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guys know, I'm know he is.

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A little farther than I think we have to go to,

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like Cincinnati or or further to Cincinnati to stop thinking

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about BUCkies.

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I just think it would be really fun and it

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would be fun to just get a bunch of snacks.

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And you know it's four.

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Hours, four hours, five hours, all right?

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Do you want to get back to chrispan I sure do.

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Do you want to give us a brief summary of

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part one?

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I would love to. If you haven't listened to part one,

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you should go do that now. In the early hours

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of Thursday, June fourteenth, two thousand and seven, just before sunrise,

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thirty two year old Christopher Vaughan was found limping along

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a rural road near Shanahan, Illinois, searching for help after

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he had sustained non life threatening gunshot wounds to his

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left thigh and left wrist. Vaughn, a devoted husband to

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his wife, Kimberly, thirty four, and a loving father to

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their three children, twelve year old Abigail, eleven year old Cassandra,

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and eight year old Blake, lagged down a passerby at

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five eighteen am and asked him to call nine one one. Tragically,

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when the police arrived on the scene, they discovered Kim

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and the three children were brutally slain inside the family's

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red two thousand and four Ford Expedition suv parked on

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a service road just off Interstate fifty five. The children

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were all shot twice, Kim once. Christopher was arrested for

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the murders on the morning of the funeral, But was

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it a rush to judgment. The devastating tragedy raised one

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important question. Which parent killed their beautiful young children? Did

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this loving mother kill her family and then turn the

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gun on herself. Or did Chris Vaughan attempt to cover

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up his own unthinkable crime.

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Is there anything else you want to mention from part one?

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Well, the one thing that sticks out in my mind

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that I remember is that he left the car to

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go out to the road, which was I don't know

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how far away was the road wherever?

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It was like a football He only got a football

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field away from the suv when he was picked up

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by the man named John.

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And he never went back to the car to check

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on his family. He did not, like allegedly get he

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got shot by he said his wife originally shot.

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Well, he told the man in the pickup truck, I

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think my wife, my wife shot me, But he didn't

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say that to the police.

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Yeah, And he never went back to check on his

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kids or to try.

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To pay had amnesia, some sort of amnesia.

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Right.

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We're going to talk about that a lot more today.

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I was looking back through my notes and I saw

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a couple of pieces of evidence that I forgot to

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mention during part one. There was an issue of PI

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magazine with an article titled how to make a homicide

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Look like a suicide that was found in the Vaughan Holme,

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but Chris said he didn't read it and his fingerprints

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actually were not found on it. And during the interrogation,

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when Chris said he was unhappy in his marriage, the

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detectives asked him, well, why don't you get divorced? And

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he said divorce is not an option. Oh, interesting, which

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we've heard a lot of times from these different guys,

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remember specifically Chris Coleman said it. On September twenty seventh,

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two thousand and seven, will County District Attorney James Glasgow

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announced his intent to seek the death penalty for Christopher

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Vaughan with support from the Phillips family, while Chris was

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awaiting trial. In twenty eleven, Illinois Governor Pat Quinn signed

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a bill abolishing the death penalty. While that sounds like

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a positive development, defendants facing the death penalty are given

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access to attorneys, expert witnesses, investigators, and other resources, which

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Chris no longer had access to. With the funding for

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Chris's attorneys withdrawn, he was given a public defender. This

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was a huge blow to his defense. His lawyers had

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spent years at this point working on the case. Chris's mom, Gail,

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said that his legal team was willing to take the

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fee that the state offered the public defenders, but the

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state would not allow it. So you can see how

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that's a huge blow to his defense.

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Yeah, I never really thought about that that if you're

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facing the death penalty, you get a lot more resources

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I guess assigned to you, just because of the seriousness

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of that.

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I believe at the end of President Biden's term, he

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commuted anyone that was in federal prison that had a

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death sentence, he commuted their sentences, and there were at

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least two people that said no, thank you. They would

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rather have the death penalty and have.

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I think access to the resource, the legal resources to

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help them. Okay. Interesting.

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In April twenty ten, nearly three years after the murders,

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Chris was overheard in a pre trial hearing saying to

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his lawyers, quote, I'm done, I'm tired, I'm finished. I've

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had nothing to do for the past three years for

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an unknown reason. He'd been residing in the prison's medical unit.

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So Chris is not a big guy. And remember he

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lost like a lot of weight. He went from one

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hundred and eighty pounds to one hundred and forty pounds,

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five foot eight or five foot nine. He allegedly killed

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three children, so I'm guessing that his time in prison

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probably wasn't really pleasant. This hearing focused on a defense

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mode to suppress evidence of three books on druidism, along

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with related Internet searches found in the Vaught home. Druidism

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or Druidry is a modern spiritual or religious movement that

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promotes the cultivation of honorable relationships with physical landscapes, flora, fauna,

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and the diverse peoples of the world, as well as nature, deities,

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and spirits of nature in place. Theological beliefs among modern

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druids are diverse, However, all modern druids venerate the divine

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essence of nature. Chris was drawn to Druidism, but Kim

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was not. The judge ruled in favor of the defense.

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Chris's religious beliefs could not be held against him. On

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August twentieth, twenty twelve, the trial finally started in Joliet, Illinois,

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more than five years after the murders. When I say Juliet, Illinois,

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do you okay? There you go? I figured, yeah, yeah.

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So if you're from Illinois and you say Joliet everyone

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just to suit like they know you're talking about the

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state prison.

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Yes.

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In the adjoining courtroom, Drew Peterson was being tried for

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the death of his wife, Kathleen Savio, although his trial

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had started a couple of weeks before that. Quite a coincidence,

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isn't it, well, Will County Attorney Terry Sullivan told the

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Chicago Tribune quote, to have two cases like that going

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on at the same time is unprecedented, certainly in will

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County and maybe in the country. The Von trial is

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the kind of case that should get national coverage, but

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it might be overshadowed with all the tom foolery going

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on in the court room next door, tomfoolery being one

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of my favorite words words. He said that the Von

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case was one of the most horrific cases in Will

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County history. At the end of each day of trial,

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Will County State's Attorney James Glasgow, a man who has

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never seen a camera he didn't love, fielded questions from

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the media. Currently serving his seventh term in office. Glasgow

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was up for re election in twenty twelve, and it

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was no coincidence that these two trials were playing out simultaneously.

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Although the salacious Peterson trial received more attention from the

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media and the public.

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Was a research incidents.

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No, I mean no, it really was it, which is

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crazy to me. It's just so many manipulatives.

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Well, just having two high profile trials of that nature

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in the same area around the same time is pretty coincidental.

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But yeah, having the trials both go on at the

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same time as a strange decision.

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Yeah, so're researching this case. I was surprised that there's

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really not as much information about it compared to Drew Peterson, Like,

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there's no books on it. There is the podcast Murder

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in Illinois, but we'll talk about that more later. The

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prosecution had a long list of two hundred and seventy

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possible witnesses. They estimated the trial would last about a month.

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Their argument Vaughan murdered his wife and three children so

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he could escape to the Canadian wilderness unencumbered by his

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wife and children, to live off the grid. Do you

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know how sometimes in a trial the attorneys they craft

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these wildly speculative narratives about the defendant to fit the

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evidence and motive in the case. Do you know what

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I'm talking about? In the case of Christopher Vaughan. No

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pontification or hyperbole was necessary by the prosecution. Vaughan made

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his desire to start a new life in the Canadian

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wilderness clear, and the evidence supported it. Although in my opinion,

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the defense did go off the rails. Kim, the defense argued,

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was so distraught over her allegedly crumbling marriage that she

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took not only her own life, but the lives of

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the three children. They claimed that the prescription drugs that

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she was taking, nor tryptolene and Topomax, which in rare

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cases have been linked to suicidal thoughts, drove her over

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the edge. In November two thousand and five, Kim began

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seeing a neurologist, doctor Prideep Basha, to treat her migraine

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and tension headaches. She was experiencing sensitivity to sound and light, nausea, vomiting,

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and sweating. The doctor believes stress was causing her frequent headaches.

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September two thousand and six, Kim was prescribed Topomax and

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nor tryptilene, two prescription drugs that both have adverse side effects.

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All drugs have side effects, but both of these have

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serious side effects. Topomax came on the market in nineteen

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ninety six and was first used to prevent seizures by

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blocking electrical activity in the brain. It was approved for

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use in migraine treatment in two thousand and four. While

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there are better drugs on the market today to treat

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migraine headaches, Kim was prescribed Topomax. Topomax carries a stern

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warning for the patient immediately notified your health care provider

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if you experience any sudden changes in mood, panic attacks,

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impulsive behavior including aggression or hostility, or thoughts of suicide.

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Topomax can also cause nausea and intestinal discomfort. It's also

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been approved by the FDA for weight loss. In September

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two thousand and six, Kim also saw a doctor for

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stress induced high blood pressure. The other drug prescribed for

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Kim was nor tryptilene. It's been approved for use in

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the US since nineteen sixty four to treat depression, nerve pain,

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and a laundry list of other off label conditions such

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as IBS, TMJ, and anxiety or Tryptoline carries a black

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box warning, the most serious warning issued by the FDA

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for younger patients aged twelve to twenty five. Your triptolene

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can cause a marked increase in suicide ideation, but with

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age the warning drops off significantly. But both of these

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drugs have the side effect of increased thoughts of suicide,

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in addition to confusion about identity, seeing or hearing things

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that might not be there, and feelings that someone may

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be controlling you or hearing your thoughts. Nor triptolene also

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causes nausea, vomiting, and digestive issues. Neither medication should be

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taken with alcohol. These drugs are prescribed together, but the

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patient should be closely monitored. The newer generation of antidepressant

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medications offer better results with fewer side effects, but if

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you or someone you know begins to taking these, or

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any new medication for that matter, observe them and check

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in with them for any changes in mood or behavior.

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Kim had no history of suicidal thoughts or mental health

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problems other than the anxiety that she was dealing with.

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Kim's doctor at her last appointment said he was going

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to slowly wean her off the drugs. I'm not sure why,

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but maybe as school was winding down and the kids

293
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were more settled, her anxiety had lessened, reducing her headaches

294
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studies estimate that for every one thousand people treated with antidepressants,

295
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about four people experience increased suicidal thinking compared to those

296
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on a placebo, and the most dangerous time is when

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the drugs are initially prescribed. Kim had been on both

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drugs for an extended period of time. While antidepressants may

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cause suicidal ideation and young people in the short term,

300
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they ultimately reduce suicide rates by treating long term depression.

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Back to the trial.

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During opening statements, the prosecution focused on Chris's demeanor after

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the tragedy. Quote, you, ladies and gentlemen, will be able

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to assess what his demeanor was like that day. You

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will be watching hours and hours of these interviews of

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the defendant and his interaction and his reactions that day,

307
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and you will be able to judge his demeanor his

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actions in that interview room on each of those days.

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Of course, as our smart listeners know, demeanor is not evidence.

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People react to trauma in different ways. In how someone

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looks or acts after a tragedy or in an interview

312
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:33.720
room doesn't necessarily mean anything. People have different trauma responses.

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Very true. One of the first witnesses called was Mark Daniels,

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owner of a gun store and indoor shooting range in Plainfield, Illinois.

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He testified that Vaughan had visited the shooting range twice,

316
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once on June six, two thousand and seven, at ten

317
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twenty five am, and again on June thirteenth, two thousand

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and seven at five thirty pm, just hours before the murders.

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Jurors watched eight hours of Chris's interrogation videos along with

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graphic crime scene five. He was impassive as the gory

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images were shown.

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Later, Gail, Chris's mom, said that he wasn't shown the images.

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He was looking at just like a blank screen in

324
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front of him, and everyone else had like a screen

325
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in front of them that showed the gory images. So

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he kind of got a lot of heat for that, Like, oh,

327
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he didn't react at all to the images of the

328
00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:24.519
autopsy or crime scene or whatever, but he really couldn't

329
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see the images.

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Interesting. During the police interviews, Vaughan consistently claimed that he

331
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had no memory of what happened On the morning of

332
00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:36.279
June fourteenth, two thousand and seven. Several witnesses, including Kim's parents,

333
00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:39.839
testified that Chris was a very quiet introverted man who

334
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rarely talked and wasn't openly expressive. Then came testimony from

335
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Illinois State Police forensic scientist Nicole Fundel, who told the

336
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jury that the gun that injured Chris was no more

337
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than six inches from his leg when it was fired.

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Chris's fleece jacket, which he had been wearing at the

339
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time of the murders, had four bullet holes, according to

340
00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:03.039
court documents. Quote. One was above the left front pocket,

341
00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:05.839
one was in the lower back of the jacket, and

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two were in the left wrist area. Fundell determined that

343
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these holes were consistent with the passage of a single

344
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bullet made when the jacket had been wrapped or layered

345
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around the gun before it was fired. She offered three

346
00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:21.400
possible reasons for someone to do this, First to muffle

347
00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:25.359
the sound, second to conceal the weapon, Third to cushion

348
00:18:25.400 --> 00:18:28.440
the impact if someone was attempting to shoot themselves. That's

349
00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:30.920
really interesting about the bullet holes, because how else would

350
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you have four bullet holes.

351
00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:34.559
Bullet holes are really hard to explain.

352
00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:38.079
Yeah, I get it, but still, just having four bullet

353
00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:42.000
holes in his jacket, that would tell me that it

354
00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:45.000
wasn't just being worn like normal.

355
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And remember this jacket was really special to him because

356
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he had purchased it on his trip when he went

357
00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:55.160
on a scouting mission to the Yukon Territories.

358
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The defense would have a difficult time explaining why there

359
00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:00.839
was a bullet hole in the back of the jacket.

360
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The prosecution then focused on Chris's May two thousand and

361
00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:07.960
seven trip to the Yukon Territories. They called Stephen Willot

362
00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:11.200
to testify, a man from Ottawa, Canada, who met Chris

363
00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:14.559
on a now defunct social networking site called forty three

364
00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:17.839
Things in November two thousand and six. Chris went by

365
00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:22.599
the user named Flint or sometimes de woods Man. Willott

366
00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:25.640
was known as Flea. They bonded over their shared dream

367
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of living off the grid and eventually developed an almost

368
00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:32.720
daily email correspondence. Willot's court appearance was the first time

369
00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:35.400
the men were seeing each other face to face. In

370
00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:38.519
the emails, Chris confided to Flee that he was unhappy

371
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with modern life and wanted to leave everything behind. There

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were dozens of emails between them. In court, Willot read

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00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:49.119
aloud some of Chris's emails. Quote, for me, it's to

374
00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:52.440
live a simple, peaceful life away from the government, big cities,

375
00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:56.559
and obviously ignorant people. I can't be content with having

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00:19:56.599 --> 00:19:59.359
the same job for fifty years like my dad. In

377
00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:02.160
another email, Chris wrote, I have been married for a

378
00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:04.359
long time, and it was really just a few years

379
00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:06.680
ago that I realized that it was not going to work,

380
00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:08.920
and I did not want to be obligated to live

381
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this lifestyle until I am dead.

382
00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:13.559
In these emails, he never called Kim by her name.

383
00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:16.720
I saw one email where he referred to her as

384
00:20:16.759 --> 00:20:17.839
the lady I live with.

385
00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:21.640
Oh wow. Yeah, but Chris wasn't worried about Kim. He

386
00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:24.559
said she'd be fine. Chris had a million dollar life

387
00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:27.720
insurance policy and he hoped that she would meet someone

388
00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:29.640
with their mind in the game.

389
00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:32.400
I've read one account where he had two point five

390
00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:35.200
million dollars in life insurance, so I think that was

391
00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:37.000
true because it was in court documentary.

392
00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:40.920
Yeah, Chris talked about carving arrows and sewing his own moccasins.

393
00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:44.039
He never once mentioned his children. The only thing he

394
00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:47.480
said he'd miss his jeep. Chris mentioned a woman named

395
00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:50.039
Maya to his pen pal, who he thought might join

396
00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:53.119
them in Canada. He seemed eager to get started, telling

397
00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:56.079
Willat in one of their final exchanges, I will be

398
00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:59.079
heading up there permanently soon. The plan is to head

399
00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:00.920
up in May to find out good place and then

400
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:03.519
return later for good. I'd have to say I am

401
00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:06.039
a bit more than excited about it, and I'm spending

402
00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:09.000
every free day this month out camping and getting ready.

403
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:11.799
Sounds like you should put together a plan too. Let

404
00:21:11.839 --> 00:21:14.480
me know and we can compare notes. And he did

405
00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:16.920
spend a week in the Yukon in May. He had

406
00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:19.160
lied to Kim and told her that he was traveling

407
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:23.000
for work. Chris made a request that completely rattled Willot.

408
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:25.240
He asked his friend if he would help him fake

409
00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:28.000
his own death. Chris said he wanted to disappear, but

410
00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:30.720
he also wanted Kim to get his life insurance pay out.

411
00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:34.920
After that email, Willot cut off all communication. So that's

412
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:38.240
pretty interesting. It actually seems pretty good for Christopher's case

413
00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:40.319
because it makes it sound like, yeah, I was gonna

414
00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:43.079
fake my own death. Why would I kill my wife

415
00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:44.519
and kids if I was going to do that?

416
00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:49.279
True? But will it was like, uh, I want no

417
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:51.160
part of that. Yeah, And so he had to come

418
00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:54.039
up with a plan B and to fake your own death.

419
00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:56.559
There's a lot of moving parts there, and it's not

420
00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:59.200
as easy to do as you would think. And allegedly

421
00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:00.519
he wanted Kim to get the money.

422
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:03.000
So yeah, that's a good point. So if he was

423
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:04.880
asking will It for help, and will It was like,

424
00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:07.359
I'm out of here, then maybe he had to go

425
00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:09.839
back to Plan B. Like you said, there was.

426
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:11.799
A story recently in the news about a man from

427
00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:14.279
Wisconsin who faked his own death.

428
00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:16.480
He was kayaking where he left his kayak to make

429
00:22:16.519 --> 00:22:19.279
it look like he had drowned and then he yeah.

430
00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:22.160
And people looked for him. He was in Eastern Europe

431
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:25.599
and I believe around Christmas time he was extradited back

432
00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:28.319
to the United States. Do you think his wife was like,

433
00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:30.880
just save him, just we don't need him and he

434
00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:31.480
can stay.

435
00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:33.039
Yeah, he wouldn't blame her.

436
00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:37.599
Oh. Chris's co worker, Allen Sue, testified that he and

437
00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:40.960
Chris were in Utah about two weeks before the murders.

438
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:43.720
In a text exchange, Chris told him that he had

439
00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:48.200
stayed out until five am and cryptically said, quote, things

440
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.519
got interesting and he couldn't talk about it over a text.

441
00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:54.839
It sounds like his work trips were becoming a little wilder.

442
00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:57.319
Yeah, he was like maybe he was like having a

443
00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:58.559
midlife crisis or something.

444
00:22:58.799 --> 00:22:59.440
He was thirty two.

445
00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:03.359
You know, to some people, their midlife crazies start earlier.

446
00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:06.480
But he was exploring some new behaviors.

447
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:10.039
On lying to Kim about what he was doing to.

448
00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:13.240
Next, Maya Drake took the stand. Maya was a dancer

449
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:16.160
at a strip club called Scores near the airport.

450
00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:17.599
Which airport was it near?

451
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:17.960
Oh?

452
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:21.960
Hair Oh. She estimated that she met Chris four or

453
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:24.920
five times. On one of his visits to the strip club,

454
00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:27.319
he gave her a one page poem he wrote for her.

455
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:30.559
According to Maya, Chris said he wanted to leave his wife,

456
00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:34.519
but he would make sure she was taking care of financially. Quote.

457
00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:36.599
He told me he wanted to leave his wife and

458
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:39.720
moved to Canada and built his own cabin in the woods.

459
00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:43.240
He didn't care about money or material possessions. He thought

460
00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:45.200
his wife was too materialistic.

461
00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:47.279
Wait, are you not going to read us the poem

462
00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:48.559
that he wrote? Do you not have that?

463
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:49.319
I don't have it?

464
00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:51.599
Disappointed in you?

465
00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:55.200
I have a few just words from it. Later on,

466
00:23:56.119 --> 00:23:58.480
I'm sure it was beautiful. Yeah, probably going to be

467
00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:01.240
in a book somewhere, maybe some plaques. I don't know.

468
00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:04.920
Chris confided in Maya that he was furious that Kim

469
00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:08.880
had recently spent five thousand dollars on curtains for their

470
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:12.160
new home. He told Maya quote, She's going to get

471
00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:15.240
what she deserves. She won't see it coming. I don't

472
00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:16.920
think he meant that to sound nefarious.

473
00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:19.519
I think her right.

474
00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:21.160
He was just going to leave her and she won't.

475
00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:24.559
She wasn't going to be expecting it. Another dancer, Kristal Miller,

476
00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:27.599
testified that Chris spent about five thousand dollars at her

477
00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:30.279
club on June six than June twelfth, which is a

478
00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:33.839
far better investment than curtains for your new house.

479
00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:34.440
Yeah.

480
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:37.880
He told her that he had never been married and

481
00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:42.279
didn't have children. Crystal described Vaughan as timid. Instead of

482
00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:45.200
requesting private dances, Chris would spend time talking to the

483
00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:48.400
dancers about poetry, philosophy, and his dream of living off

484
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:51.240
the grid. Later, he wrote Maya a poem from jail,

485
00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:56.240
using runic symbols associated with druidism. The FBI later decoded it,

486
00:24:56.359 --> 00:25:02.079
revealing phrases about ancient soul's speechless conversations and hopeful dreams.

487
00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:03.160
He sounds so deep.

488
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:07.160
Chris hacked in Amaya's computer and searched for her address

489
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:10.920
and phone number, despite her never giving him her full name.

490
00:25:11.559 --> 00:25:14.039
Two more entertainers were on the witness list, but they

491
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:17.599
were not called. Chris's behavior was becoming more reckless. He

492
00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:20.559
was visiting strip clubs multiple times a week and putting

493
00:25:20.599 --> 00:25:22.759
it on his credit card. Do you think that was

494
00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:25.599
because Kim would never see the bill? I mean it

495
00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:30.279
could be the State's expert in crime scene reconstruction, Matthew Nodle,

496
00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:33.559
explained that the nine millimeter gun found in the SUV

497
00:25:34.039 --> 00:25:37.880
was a semi automatic pistol. It had fully cycled after

498
00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:40.960
the last shot, meaning it was ready to fire again.

499
00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:45.480
In a suicide, semi automatic weapons often jam because the

500
00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:49.039
shooter's hand fails to support the gun after the fatal shot,

501
00:25:49.319 --> 00:25:51.720
because after the victim dies there is no pressure on

502
00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:52.240
the trigger.

503
00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:55.799
It's called rimp list syndrome. Oh okay, I'm working out

504
00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:58.480
a case right now where this is interesting.

505
00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:00.599
I hope I explained this right. It was kind of

506
00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:03.000
confusing to me. The fact that the gun did not

507
00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:06.200
jam was a strong indication that Kim was not the

508
00:26:06.279 --> 00:26:09.440
one who fired the last shot, Doctor Larry Blum. The

509
00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:13.839
pathologists who performed the four autopsies testified that the nortryptolene

510
00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:17.640
levels in Kim's blood were at the low end of toxicity,

511
00:26:18.039 --> 00:26:21.519
but stressed the post mortem redistribution could have made the

512
00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:25.119
level appear higher than it actually was. After death, the

513
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:28.960
body redistributes drugs into the blood as organs such as

514
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:33.240
the lungs, liver, and myocardium purge them. That's kind of confusing.

515
00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:34.119
Do you understand that.

516
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:35.519
I think so.

517
00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:37.960
I'm not sure I quite understand it, but I think

518
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:42.319
that the drugs they're stored in your organs, and then

519
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:45.680
after you die, your organs kind of release the toxins

520
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:48.079
and go back into the bloodstrepe. So that's when you

521
00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:51.680
test the blood, it might appear higher than it actually was.

522
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:52.200
Gotcha.

523
00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:56.359
Forensic scientist Kelly Krainik testified about the sheer amount of

524
00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:59.839
blood found inside the Vaughn's SUV. There was a lot

525
00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:03.920
of blood and biological material throughout the vehicle. Remember when

526
00:27:04.039 --> 00:27:06.799
we talked about how the officers were walking up to

527
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:09.960
the vehicle and there was a trickle of blood like

528
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:13.759
hundreds of feet long that was coming out of the suv, disturbing.

529
00:27:14.359 --> 00:27:17.160
Chris's blood was splattered on the driver's side door, on

530
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:20.119
the jacket investigators believe was wrapped around the muzzle of

531
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:23.640
the gun, on Kim's seatbelt and buckle, the passenger side

532
00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:27.240
of the console, the driver's seat, Kim's shorts and shirt,

533
00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:31.160
the floorboard, and even a book near Kim's feet. It's

534
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:33.640
an awful lot of blood for a man who claimed

535
00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:36.720
that he wasn't even in the vehicle when the shots

536
00:27:36.759 --> 00:27:39.799
were fired. Kim's blood was found on the bottom of

537
00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:42.559
Chris's jacket, the right side of the driver's seat, the

538
00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:46.119
center console, and her own clothing. Of course, drops of

539
00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:50.079
Chris's blood were found on Kim, something forensic expert Paul

540
00:27:50.200 --> 00:27:54.480
Kish testified was significant. According to Kish, those drops of

541
00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:58.960
blood indicate that Kim was already immobile, likely dead when

542
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:02.079
the blood landed on it her. Furthermore, Kim's blood on

543
00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:05.480
the console was smudged, and since she was dead, she

544
00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:07.640
couldn't have been the one who smudged it.

545
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:11.000
This is really interesting the blood evidence. Can you explain?

546
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:14.359
I'm not sure I quite understand the logic behind drops

547
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:17.960
of Chris's blood being found on Kim mean that she

548
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:19.160
was immobile already.

549
00:28:19.480 --> 00:28:22.640
Okay, I'm I'm not a CSI. But if you think

550
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:26.359
about like a drop of blood landing on someone, if

551
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:28.759
you move the blood, it's going to show some sort

552
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:30.359
of movement. And I think it was just like a

553
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:32.920
drop of blood, Okay, And there wasn't like, you know,

554
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:35.640
like if you have a nosebleed, let's say, and it falls,

555
00:28:35.799 --> 00:28:38.440
like there's going to be like kind of a trickle

556
00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:40.319
coming out of it, do you know what I'm saying. Yeah,

557
00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:42.839
And I think these were just like little plops of blood.

558
00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:46.599
So had she like moved, it would have the blood

559
00:28:46.599 --> 00:28:47.440
probably would have run.

560
00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:49.000
Yeah, that makes sense.

561
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:52.200
Chris insisted he got out of the suv before Kim

562
00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:57.559
shot herself, what Prosecutors argued that the blood evidence suggested otherwise. Instead,

563
00:28:57.599 --> 00:28:59.920
they said it showed he was moving over Kim's body

564
00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:03.119
after her death, and notably, none of the blood evidence

565
00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:05.799
pointed to a struggle. Not all of the blood on

566
00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:09.599
Kim was tested, but a major question remains. If Chris

567
00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:12.039
left the vehicle after he was shot to go for help,

568
00:29:12.279 --> 00:29:14.960
why was his blood on Kim and on the floor.

569
00:29:15.400 --> 00:29:17.640
He had no answer for the blood evidence during the trial,

570
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:21.319
but years later he would have an explanation for everything.

571
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:24.799
There's also the issue of the gun. If Kim had

572
00:29:24.839 --> 00:29:27.240
died by suicide, there should have been blood spatter on

573
00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:30.039
both the gun and her hand, but there was only

574
00:29:30.200 --> 00:29:32.759
one small blood spot on her left hand and none

575
00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:35.839
on the gun. Additionally, the expert testified that both of

576
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:39.160
Chris's gun shot wounds were contact wounds or fired a

577
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:42.599
very close range. Would Kim have leaned over to shoot

578
00:29:42.680 --> 00:29:45.599
him in the left leg. Chris told police that he

579
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:48.000
had emptied the gun after he left the shooting range

580
00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:51.480
the previous evening. If Kim was the shooter, she would

581
00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:54.720
have had to have reloaded the magazine, but her fingerprints

582
00:29:54.759 --> 00:29:57.960
were not found on it. As for the children, the

583
00:29:58.039 --> 00:30:01.000
evidence suggested that they were shot from the passenger seat.

584
00:30:01.559 --> 00:30:04.559
Prosecutors argue that Chris could have leaned over Kim her

585
00:30:04.599 --> 00:30:07.599
body slumped to one side, to shoot them, which would

586
00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:10.480
explain why his blood was found on Kim's seat belt

587
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:14.000
and clothing. However, the forensic expert couldn't rule out the

588
00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:17.559
possibility that Kim had unbuckled, then turned around in her

589
00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:21.519
seat and fired the shots herself. But just because experts

590
00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:24.839
couldn't rule out the shooting and the suicide. That doesn't

591
00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:25.680
mean that it's likely.

592
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:28.039
So a few days ago, I didn't know why you

593
00:30:28.119 --> 00:30:31.119
were asking me to do this, but we went out

594
00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:32.079
to your car and we.

595
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:34.640
Did a little bit a very scientific recreation.

596
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:37.200
Your car's a little bit smaller than a foreign expedition,

597
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:40.480
but still I think what I learned from that is

598
00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:42.519
if you were sitting in the passenger seat of a car,

599
00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:45.599
it would be very difficult, I think, to turn around

600
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:48.880
and shoot the person sitting directly behind you.

601
00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:53.359
Yeah. If you remember so, Abby, Sandy and Blake are

602
00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:57.759
the children. Abby was behind the driver and then Sandy

603
00:30:57.880 --> 00:30:59.920
was in the middle and Blake was behind Kim.

604
00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:00.519
Yeah.

605
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:03.279
Yeah, And when we went to, like, you know, the

606
00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:06.519
person behind the passenger, that was a really hard shot

607
00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:08.440
to make, unless you knows.

608
00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:10.079
You actually kind of got up out of your seat

609
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:12.319
and got on your knees and turned around.

610
00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:15.160
Yeah, but and then you tried to like.

611
00:31:17.400 --> 00:31:19.640
Yeah, yeah, and were you.

612
00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:20.279
Able to do that.

613
00:31:20.839 --> 00:31:23.039
It was definitely an easier thing to do than it

614
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:26.359
would have been. I think sitting in the passenger scene during.

615
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:29.720
The trial, mistakes made during the investigation were revealed crime

616
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:32.759
scene technicians failed to swab deep inside the barrel of

617
00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:35.960
the gun for Kim's biological matter. If they found it,

618
00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:38.759
it would have been definitive proof that the last shot

619
00:31:39.240 --> 00:31:42.799
fired was self inflicted, although Kelly Kranik said she looked

620
00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:45.359
down the barrel with a flashlight and a magnifier and

621
00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:48.160
she saw no blood. And they did swab down the

622
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:51.559
barrel like a couple of inches, but not deep inside.

623
00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:55.839
Another air involved a white towel with blood spatter found

624
00:31:55.880 --> 00:31:58.759
on Kim's lap. It was never collected as evidence, but

625
00:31:58.839 --> 00:32:03.319
there's pictures like crime scene photos of this towel runner lab. Instead,

626
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:06.240
it was later washed at the crime lab, erasing whatever

627
00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:09.880
forensic value it may have had. They thought it was

628
00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:11.039
a cleaning towel.

629
00:32:11.079 --> 00:32:12.559
Okay, I thought I was going to ask if maybe

630
00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:13.599
they thought it was one of theirs.

631
00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:17.559
But yet still it was frustrating to investigators because they

632
00:32:17.599 --> 00:32:20.200
thought that could have been, you know, kind of definitive

633
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:22.759
proof of what was on the towel, whose blood was

634
00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:27.359
on right top of it. After five weeks, six hundred exhibits,

635
00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:30.960
and eighty witnesses, the state rested its case. It presented

636
00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:34.319
a chilling picture a man deviously plot of the murders

637
00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:36.319
of his wife and children because they stood in the

638
00:32:36.359 --> 00:32:37.960
way of a new life he dreamt of in the

639
00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:50.519
Canadian wilderness. We'll be back after a break. Welcome back.

640
00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:51.640
It's good to be back.

641
00:32:51.799 --> 00:32:54.799
Now we're going to talk about Chris's defense, okay, and

642
00:32:54.920 --> 00:32:58.000
how do you think his defense attorney started, Well.

643
00:32:58.279 --> 00:33:00.480
I know, if they're going to convince the jury that

644
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:03.400
Chris is not guilty, that means they've got to convince

645
00:33:03.480 --> 00:33:05.519
them that Kim is guilty, because those are really the

646
00:33:05.559 --> 00:33:08.759
only two possibilities, right, So yeah, guessing it's something about that.

647
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:12.000
You are correct. What I was getting to though, is

648
00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:14.680
his attorney is going to start with, well, we know

649
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:18.799
Chris Bond wasn't a prod of course, yes, but he's

650
00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:21.079
not on trial for being a bad husband.

651
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:23.599
Right, So yeah, you've heard that a few times.

652
00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:26.160
So yeah, it's kind of predictable, but that's where they started.

653
00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:30.319
George Lenard, Chris's court appointed defense attorney, floated the theory

654
00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:33.000
that Kim was distraught over the state of her marriage

655
00:33:33.079 --> 00:33:36.079
and decided to take her own life and to take Abby,

656
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:39.519
Sandy and Blake with her as a twisted act of mercy.

657
00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:43.119
Lenard said, quote she was of the mindset that if

658
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:45.839
she was gone, they were better off with her come

659
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:48.440
with me to heaven. The problem was there was no

660
00:33:48.559 --> 00:33:51.480
evidence that Kim was upset about her marriage. She was

661
00:33:51.519 --> 00:33:54.240
excited to get away with Chris the weekend before her death,

662
00:33:54.319 --> 00:33:57.240
and they had other trips planned that summer. Kim was

663
00:33:57.319 --> 00:34:00.599
excited about her graduation and what was next next. She

664
00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:03.400
never voiced concerns about her marriage to anyone.

665
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:06.079
And you don't just wake up one morning with depression

666
00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:07.559
at a homicidal rage.

667
00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:10.559
Yeah, especially when you're woken at four am to go

668
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:13.079
to the water park. You're not going to just wake

669
00:34:13.159 --> 00:34:15.199
up and be like, you know what, today, I'm going to.

670
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:17.719
Grab the gun out of my husband's closet.

671
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:20.920
And yeah, it just doesn't add up. The defense claimed

672
00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:25.920
that Chris suffered from disassociative amnesia also called psychogenic amnesia

673
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:30.000
memory loss after witnessing a traumatic event as a coping mechanism.

674
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:32.320
He had no memory of what happened in the early

675
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:35.639
morning hours of June fourteenth, two thousand and seven. It's

676
00:34:35.719 --> 00:34:38.559
more common in females, and the memory loss is typically

677
00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:39.159
short term.

678
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:42.239
But even if Chris had amnesia, it doesn't mean that

679
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:43.559
he's innocent.

680
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:45.400
Right if he had done it, he could also be

681
00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:49.320
traumatized by exactly The defense called a blood spatter expert

682
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:51.880
who said that the blood on Kim's left thumb was

683
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:55.719
consistent with blowback spatter, meaning that she could have pulled

684
00:34:55.760 --> 00:34:59.400
the trigger. Kim was right handed. He cited cases where

685
00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:02.039
people had shot a gun with their weaker hand. So

686
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:04.840
I'm sure you could find cases where somebody shot a

687
00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:06.960
gun with their non dominant hand, but it seems really

688
00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:09.880
hard to believe in this case, especially someone like Kim

689
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:13.760
who wasn't experienced with guns. And if she were to

690
00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:16.679
shoot her kids in the back seat, how could she

691
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:18.159
do that with her She wouldn't have done that with

692
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:18.920
her left hands.

693
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:21.000
Well, I think the point was the last shot was

694
00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:22.599
the one that she would have shot with her.

695
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:25.280
Right But I'm just saying you wouldn't shoot. You wouldn't

696
00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:27.679
use your right hand to shoot your the people in

697
00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:29.840
the back seat and then switch to your left hand.

698
00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:31.440
It doesn't It just doesn't make an sense.

699
00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:32.239
None of it makes sense.

700
00:35:32.840 --> 00:35:37.199
Kim's neurologist, doctor Pradeep Basha, testified. He said that she

701
00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:41.760
had anxiety, but showed no signs of depression. Hostility or anger. Quote.

702
00:35:41.880 --> 00:35:44.280
I never had any reason to believe she was depressed.

703
00:35:44.599 --> 00:35:47.960
She was always smiling and cheerful. Doctor Basha said that

704
00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:51.559
he did not worry about prescribing Topamax to Kim because

705
00:35:51.639 --> 00:35:54.360
patients who have problems with the drug typically are suffering

706
00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:57.760
from mental health problems, and Kim did not and never had.

707
00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:01.039
In addition, he said that nor Tripped has only one

708
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:04.679
point one six percent homicide rate. Kim's sister in law

709
00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:08.079
testified about the meltdown Kim had about her school assignment

710
00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:12.239
during the Jeep jamboree weekend. Sandy's fifth grade teacher testified

711
00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:15.079
about a conversation she had with Kim in which she

712
00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:17.679
was upset because she hadn't been turning in her homework.

713
00:36:17.960 --> 00:36:20.599
Kim said, quote, I've been crying about this all day.

714
00:36:21.079 --> 00:36:22.840
As far as I can tell. Those were the only

715
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:26.840
two witnesses that the defense called that were witnesses to

716
00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:30.199
any sort of mental health problems that Kim was having.

717
00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:32.159
Those are pretty minor.

718
00:36:32.440 --> 00:36:34.679
Yeah, Yeah, that seems like quite a leap to go

719
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:38.480
from being upset about her daughter turning in homework late and.

720
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:44.360
You know, to that putting her in yeah, suicidal homicidal. Yeah.

721
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:49.039
Friends of Kim testified that she was a loving, caring person. Quote.

722
00:36:49.159 --> 00:36:52.239
She just loved life. She cared more about others than herself.

723
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:56.360
She just loved everybody. Robert Diel, a former Illinois State

724
00:36:56.400 --> 00:37:00.039
Police crime scene investigator, testified that during the investigation and

725
00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:02.880
after he posed the theory that Kim was the shooter,

726
00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:06.239
he was squeezed out quote every time I would come

727
00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:08.880
up with something that the evidence would suggest or support,

728
00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:10.880
or you would be able to at least follow the

729
00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:14.280
evidence to come to a logical conclusion. Basically, I was

730
00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:17.159
just given some other crazy way that this could have occurred,

731
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:19.960
or they would change their theory of what happened to

732
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:22.599
try to match the evidence, rather than letting the evidence

733
00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:25.639
dictate to you the events that occurred. He believes that

734
00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:28.800
Kim shot at Chris's head, but his watch deflected the

735
00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:30.880
shot when he raised his hands in defense.

736
00:37:31.159 --> 00:37:34.199
Do you remember his fabulous turquoise watch that he was

737
00:37:34.280 --> 00:37:37.800
worried about the police returning to him? So this watch

738
00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:40.199
must have some sort of superpowers. I don't know if

739
00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:42.519
Wonder Woman gave it to him, but how can a

740
00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:46.519
watch deflect a bullet? Yeah, that seems it's pretty far fetched, right.

741
00:37:46.599 --> 00:37:49.119
Yes, what the defense didn't want the jury to know

742
00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:53.800
is that Dial had already testified at the trial next door. Coincidentally,

743
00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:56.840
he was also the CSI who investigated the death of

744
00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:01.440
Drew Peterson's third wife, Kathleen Saviot. His reputation and credibility

745
00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:04.440
never recovered after he botched the crime scene when he

746
00:38:04.519 --> 00:38:08.360
failed to gather any evidence from Kathleen's bathroom, resulting in

747
00:38:08.440 --> 00:38:12.039
her death initially being ruled a suicide. He was later

748
00:38:12.159 --> 00:38:15.559
reassigned by Will County to a patrol unit, his career

749
00:38:15.679 --> 00:38:19.039
as a crime scene investigator over. So this seems like

750
00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:21.920
a really important part of this case because here they

751
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:26.119
had a police officer, a crime scene investigator, testifying for

752
00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:29.639
Chris Vaughan for his defense. But at the same time,

753
00:38:29.719 --> 00:38:32.079
this guy really doesn't seem like he was good at

754
00:38:32.119 --> 00:38:34.079
his job and he left.

755
00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:36.920
If you remember Kathleen Savio, it was a bathtub and

756
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:41.599
where the bathtub was dry, and the evidence might have

757
00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:43.840
been unclear as to whether it was a homicide or

758
00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:46.880
a suicide. But he came back with no evidence at all.

759
00:38:47.079 --> 00:38:50.000
Yeah, but I'm sure Chris Vaughan's defense attorney was thrilled

760
00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:52.719
to be able to have a crime scene investigator testify

761
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:55.840
on their behalf Yeah. The final witness called was a

762
00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:59.360
rebuttal witness for the prosecution, who said that Topamax and

763
00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:03.119
nortrip de lan are commonly prescribed together and there is

764
00:39:03.239 --> 00:39:06.519
no strong evidence that points to an increase in suicide risk,

765
00:39:06.760 --> 00:39:09.760
and taking the drugs together does not multiply the risk.

766
00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:13.880
Assistant DA Chris Regis gave the closing arguments for the state,

767
00:39:14.320 --> 00:39:18.159
quote his story is so contradictory and so filled with

768
00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:22.079
holes that it completely reeks of guilt. Speaking on Chris's

769
00:39:22.119 --> 00:39:26.239
demeanor during the interrogation, Regis said, quote, think about the

770
00:39:26.360 --> 00:39:28.960
worst movie you've ever seen in your life and how

771
00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:33.800
bad the acting was. This was worse. The state argued

772
00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:36.679
that Chris's family were obstacles to the life he wanted

773
00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:39.880
to lead. The defense and their closing argument, presented by

774
00:39:39.920 --> 00:39:43.199
the public defender George Lenard, said there was reasonable doubt

775
00:39:43.239 --> 00:39:46.760
provided by expert witnesses that the forensic evidence could not

776
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:49.679
rule out that Kim had possibly been the gunman. This

777
00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:53.679
drove me crazy because they didn't say that Kim did it.

778
00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:56.079
They were saying, but we can't rule it out. So

779
00:39:56.559 --> 00:39:59.760
it was a possibility, but the defense will keep pointing

780
00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:03.199
to that as well. You know, we have witnesses that's

781
00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:06.480
saying that she did it. And Leonard argued that the

782
00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:09.840
state had proved only one thing, that Chris was unhappy

783
00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:12.119
and wanted to live a life in the wilderness, but

784
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:15.559
they did not prove he killed his family. Quote, Christopher

785
00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:17.960
is not on trial of for planning to leave his family,

786
00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:21.199
And there was a big difference. Christopher has made mistakes

787
00:40:21.199 --> 00:40:23.559
in his life. There's no doubt about it. Nobody is

788
00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:26.599
saying that Christopher is a perfect husband or a perfect

789
00:40:26.679 --> 00:40:29.360
father in our show notes, I think the first or

790
00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:34.000
second source I have is the closing arguments, and it

791
00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:37.119
was like two hundred and fifty pages and I read

792
00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:40.159
it all and the prosecution, the state did. They did

793
00:40:40.599 --> 00:40:45.360
an excellent job summarizing the whole case. After hearing six

794
00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:48.679
hours of closing arguments, on September twentieth, twenty twelve, the

795
00:40:48.760 --> 00:40:51.679
jury was given the case at three thirty pm. It

796
00:40:51.800 --> 00:40:54.559
took the jury of eight men and four women just

797
00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:57.519
fifty minutes to reach a verdict in the five week trial.

798
00:40:57.559 --> 00:41:01.079
Look at me, Christopher van was and what do you think?

799
00:41:01.320 --> 00:41:01.719
Guilty?

800
00:41:02.079 --> 00:41:05.119
Guilty on all four counts of first degree murder. Vaughan

801
00:41:05.199 --> 00:41:07.800
sat expressionless, as he had through most of the trial

802
00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:10.400
as he learned his fate. He was likely coached by

803
00:41:10.440 --> 00:41:13.320
his attorneys to remain calm. Now would be a really

804
00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:16.519
bad time to finally show emotion. Chris didn't turn around

805
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:18.599
to look at his family. He looked straight ahead and

806
00:41:18.679 --> 00:41:21.599
then left the courtroom. David Butch, a spokesman for the

807
00:41:21.639 --> 00:41:24.880
Phillips family, said, quote, They've been through a horrible ordeal,

808
00:41:25.119 --> 00:41:27.039
but they are people of faith and this is what

809
00:41:27.159 --> 00:41:30.000
has gotten them through this. He said. The defense claims

810
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:32.719
that Kim killed her children and herself at an insult

811
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:35.519
to injury to her family. He added, there are a

812
00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:39.760
lot of unanswered questions. Will County States Attorney James Glasgow

813
00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:42.519
said after the verdict, quote, this case is not just

814
00:41:42.599 --> 00:41:46.320
a murder, it's an atrocity to annihilate your family. I

815
00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:48.960
can't think of a more horrific crime. He'll spend the

816
00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:51.840
rest of his life staring at the cold walls of

817
00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:54.760
his prison cell, and then he'll meet his maker for

818
00:41:54.880 --> 00:41:58.679
his real punishment. Judge Rosack sat Vaughan's sentencing for November

819
00:41:58.719 --> 00:42:01.960
twenty sixth, see was pushed back, however, so the judge

820
00:42:01.960 --> 00:42:04.800
could hear his appeal for a new trial. George Lenard,

821
00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:07.760
Chris's attorney, alleged that he didn't receive a fair trial

822
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:11.119
because of the extra media attention Garner due to Drew

823
00:42:11.159 --> 00:42:14.559
Peterson's trial occurring at the same time. Leonard claimed that

824
00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:18.159
jurors were so disgusted by Peterson's media performance that it

825
00:42:18.280 --> 00:42:21.440
carried over to his trial. Quote. I don't know exactly

826
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:24.039
what it is they were thinking, but forty five minutes

827
00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:26.719
and not asking for any exhibits, not wanting to hear

828
00:42:26.760 --> 00:42:30.119
any testimony. That's extremely rare. I've never heard of a

829
00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:32.320
situation like that before, and that's odd.

830
00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:34.039
Seems like quite a stretch.

831
00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:37.800
The next day, the judge denied Vaughan's appeal. Before he

832
00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:40.679
was sentenced, Kim's sister and mother spoke to the court.

833
00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:44.599
Susan Phillips called Chris a selfish coward. Quote all this

834
00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:48.199
tragedy because one person was afraid to just walk away.

835
00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:52.000
Jennifer Ledbetter, Kim's twin sister, spoke about how painful it

836
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:55.039
was to lose her. She said she was afraid that

837
00:42:55.119 --> 00:42:57.679
her presence caused her family pain because she looked so

838
00:42:57.800 --> 00:43:00.840
much like her sister. Quote our hearts ache with a

839
00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:03.760
knowledge that they were priceless to everyone but the one

840
00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:06.800
man who should have loved them more than his own life.

841
00:43:07.480 --> 00:43:10.320
Must be so hard for Jennifer to lose her twin. Yeah,

842
00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:12.079
twins are so close.

843
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:14.679
And yeah, I had forgotten that she was a twin.

844
00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:17.079
But yeah, I can't imagine that would be like losing

845
00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:18.239
half of yourself. Almost.

846
00:43:18.599 --> 00:43:20.400
Remember there was another case be covered. I think it

847
00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:23.480
was David and Belinda Temple, and Belinda was a twin.

848
00:43:23.679 --> 00:43:26.840
She lost her twin too, m hm. So tragic. Vaughn

849
00:43:26.920 --> 00:43:29.760
declined to speak before his sentence was passed down. Judge

850
00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:34.360
Rosac sentence Vaughn to four consecutive life sentences. The judge

851
00:43:34.360 --> 00:43:37.039
implied that he would have sentenced Vaughan to death when

852
00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:39.719
he said that he was quote very frustrated by the

853
00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:45.199
state legislature's restrictions on sentencing. James Glasgow said, quote there

854
00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:48.239
isn't a punishment that could fit this crime. You could

855
00:43:48.280 --> 00:43:50.599
lock him up for five hundred lifetimes and it wouldn't

856
00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:53.760
compensate the victims in this case or the family members.

857
00:43:54.199 --> 00:43:58.239
I agree wholehearted too. Dell Phillips. Susan's father said, quote,

858
00:43:58.280 --> 00:44:00.280
I don't think he felt what we felt when we

859
00:44:00.440 --> 00:44:03.719
held our grandchildren. He's saying that, you know, he didn't

860
00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:05.599
think that he had a strong enough bond with his kid. Oh,

861
00:44:05.639 --> 00:44:06.840
you were looking at me like you didn't know what

862
00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:11.400
I was talking about. At the sentencing, Kim's family wept quietly. Later,

863
00:44:11.559 --> 00:44:14.800
they went to a nearby bar and ordered Kim's favorite drink,

864
00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:27.119
Lemon Drop Martini's We'll be back after a break. I

865
00:44:27.239 --> 00:44:30.199
wanted to go over with you in detail the evidence

866
00:44:30.199 --> 00:44:33.920
against Chris and the evidence against Kim. Okay, feel free

867
00:44:33.960 --> 00:44:35.960
to jump in if you think of something else. So

868
00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:38.960
Chris visited the shooting range twelve hours before the murders,

869
00:44:39.400 --> 00:44:41.960
and he went a week before that, and he hadn't

870
00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:44.360
really garned the whole time that they'd lived in Illinois.

871
00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:48.039
When he returned home, he put the gun in his closet.

872
00:44:48.519 --> 00:44:51.800
Kim normally didn't allow the gun in the house, and

873
00:44:51.880 --> 00:44:54.159
he kept it in his jeep and like a locked

874
00:44:55.079 --> 00:44:58.920
glove compartment. When Kim felt ill, why didn't he just

875
00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:02.119
stop at a rest area or a gas station. Instead,

876
00:45:02.440 --> 00:45:06.840
he pulled onto this wooded service drive. He said, Kim

877
00:45:06.920 --> 00:45:09.159
did not want to get out of the suv because

878
00:45:09.880 --> 00:45:13.320
she was shy, and that's why he wanted to park

879
00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:14.320
in the desolate area.

880
00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:16.559
And there was an exit right before that, right with

881
00:45:16.719 --> 00:45:18.199
like a McDonald's and other things.

882
00:45:18.559 --> 00:45:20.559
And why did they leave their house at four thirty

883
00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:23.599
am to go to a water park three hours away

884
00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:27.039
when that water park didn't open until ten am? Yeah,

885
00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:29.360
he wanted to do it when it was still dark

886
00:45:29.480 --> 00:45:30.719
and there was little traffic.

887
00:45:30.920 --> 00:45:31.800
Yeah, that makes sense.

888
00:45:32.280 --> 00:45:34.960
So he exited the vehicle to get help. Why didn't

889
00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:37.679
he call the police from his cell phone? Or why

890
00:45:37.719 --> 00:45:40.320
didn't he just drive to the police station or the

891
00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:44.079
hospital with his kids like he should have. Wouldn't you

892
00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:46.559
fight for your children in that situation?

893
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:48.679
That's that's the one that really gets me. It's like

894
00:45:48.719 --> 00:45:54.000
that he just abandoned his kids to his supposedly homicidal wife.

895
00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:56.159
It just it just doesn't make any sense. No one

896
00:45:56.199 --> 00:45:56.599
would do that.

897
00:45:56.760 --> 00:45:58.639
And he was injured, but it was his left arm

898
00:45:58.719 --> 00:46:02.360
and his left leg. And if Kim was so homicidal,

899
00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:05.440
why didn't she go after him right? Why didn't she like,

900
00:46:05.679 --> 00:46:08.679
you know, chase him down the road, and why didn't

901
00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:11.719
she shoot him in the head. Yeah, and he wore

902
00:46:11.800 --> 00:46:14.239
the same clothes that he had worn the night before

903
00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:17.679
to the shooting range, A long sleeve shirt, a fleece jacket, jeans,

904
00:46:17.719 --> 00:46:18.760
and cowboy boots.

905
00:46:19.159 --> 00:46:21.599
Not what one would wear to the water Parky.

906
00:46:21.400 --> 00:46:23.519
That's one of those things that you and I I

907
00:46:23.559 --> 00:46:25.679
would like be yelling at you. I'd be like, you're

908
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:27.599
not gonna wear jeans to the water park. You look

909
00:46:27.679 --> 00:46:28.360
like an idiot.

910
00:46:28.880 --> 00:46:31.159
Yeah, And you would be right in that case.

911
00:46:32.280 --> 00:46:34.440
And Kim was wearing every when else in the car

912
00:46:34.599 --> 00:46:36.599
was wearing shorts and T shirts. I checked the weather

913
00:46:36.719 --> 00:46:40.119
that morning. It was already seventy degrees at five o'clock

914
00:46:40.159 --> 00:46:40.639
in the morning.

915
00:46:40.760 --> 00:46:42.480
So the only reason he would have done that is

916
00:46:42.519 --> 00:46:45.760
because he could then say, oh, that's why gunpowder is

917
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:47.639
on the clothes, because I was. It was the same

918
00:46:47.679 --> 00:46:49.880
clothes I wore to the shooting range.

919
00:46:49.639 --> 00:46:50.079
I believe.

920
00:46:50.159 --> 00:46:50.199
So.

921
00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:53.840
Yeah, And he went to the strip club. And we

922
00:46:53.960 --> 00:46:55.880
know that he spent at least five thousand dollars on

923
00:46:56.039 --> 00:46:58.559
two nights, but we know that he went several other times,

924
00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:00.559
so we don't know how much money he really was

925
00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:03.440
spending at the strip club, but likely thousands of dollars. Yeah,

926
00:47:03.719 --> 00:47:05.880
because when you I know, I have to tell you this,

927
00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:09.280
because you don't know from personal experience that to get

928
00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:12.480
that private room with someone, I guess is very expensive.

929
00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:15.039
And he liked to have the private time with the

930
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:20.320
girls to read them poetry and other things. In my opinion,

931
00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:22.639
he did this because he knew that Kim wasn't going

932
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:24.800
to see the bills because she was going to be gone.

933
00:47:24.920 --> 00:47:26.960
Either that or maybe he did it without thinking and

934
00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:29.559
then when he realized, oh, she's going to see these bills,

935
00:47:30.320 --> 00:47:31.440
I need to act.

936
00:47:31.960 --> 00:47:34.599
Kim did suffer from anxiety, but there was no history

937
00:47:34.679 --> 00:47:38.559
of depression or any mania of any kind. Chris was

938
00:47:38.599 --> 00:47:41.280
the only one not to suffer from life threatening wounds.

939
00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:44.639
Everyone else suffered from a had wound, but him. We

940
00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:46.880
do have a motive. Chris admitted to several people that

941
00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:49.079
he wanted to live a life of solitude in the

942
00:47:49.159 --> 00:47:51.559
Canadian wilderness. He had made a plan to fake his

943
00:47:51.639 --> 00:47:55.199
own death. I feel like it's pretty solid the motive.

944
00:47:56.159 --> 00:47:58.519
We know that Kim did not like guns. She had

945
00:47:58.599 --> 00:48:01.519
gone to the shooting range times but was not a

946
00:48:01.599 --> 00:48:04.239
good shot. Kim went to the shooting range with Chris

947
00:48:04.360 --> 00:48:06.800
not because she enjoyed it, but it was just something

948
00:48:06.840 --> 00:48:09.400
for them to do together. If she had shot the

949
00:48:09.519 --> 00:48:11.880
nine millimeter pistol, would she have been able to shoot

950
00:48:11.960 --> 00:48:16.679
so efficiently? Even at close range? There were no wasted bullets,

951
00:48:16.719 --> 00:48:19.039
maybe one waisted bullet. I just don't think that she

952
00:48:19.079 --> 00:48:20.719
would have been able to shoot so efficiently.

953
00:48:20.840 --> 00:48:21.920
No, I wouldn't think so either.

954
00:48:22.280 --> 00:48:24.719
And if all of a sudden Kim is a sharp shooter,

955
00:48:25.159 --> 00:48:28.360
why did she shoot Chris on the leg and the

956
00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:29.159
hand and not?

957
00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:32.880
Well, he blocked it with his magic watch, right, that's true.

958
00:48:33.239 --> 00:48:37.239
For a computer security expert, he was pretty careless. His

959
00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:41.599
stuff was encrypted, but someone was able to unencrypt it

960
00:48:41.679 --> 00:48:44.559
pretty easily, and that's how they found like all of

961
00:48:44.639 --> 00:48:47.079
the messages and his secret accounts.

962
00:48:47.079 --> 00:48:49.559
And yeah, you would think he would have been able

963
00:48:49.599 --> 00:48:51.320
to encrypt it in a way that they would not

964
00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:52.199
be able to access it.

965
00:48:52.519 --> 00:48:55.679
Well, I think of Josh Powell, who wasn't an expert,

966
00:48:56.360 --> 00:49:00.480
and they're still working on unencrypting his devices. Yeah, good point,

967
00:49:00.800 --> 00:49:03.719
And there is some evidence against Kim. Some of these

968
00:49:03.800 --> 00:49:07.079
come from the Murder in Illinois podcast. Their kids called

969
00:49:07.119 --> 00:49:10.440
her monster Mommy sometimes because they were afraid of her.

970
00:49:10.519 --> 00:49:14.039
When she got in a bad mood okay. Abby allegedly

971
00:49:14.119 --> 00:49:16.880
told a classmate that Kim was hearing voices in her

972
00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:19.960
head and was a psycho, which I'm sorry find a

973
00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:21.800
twelve year old girl that doesn't call her mom.

974
00:49:22.039 --> 00:49:22.320
Side.

975
00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:25.880
Kim didn't allow her kids to have sleepovers, and I

976
00:49:25.960 --> 00:49:28.239
don't think she allowed them to have friends in their house,

977
00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:31.280
which I kind of understand. We always had a lot

978
00:49:31.320 --> 00:49:33.199
of kids in our house and we didn't mind. But

979
00:49:33.679 --> 00:49:36.199
when we lived in a subdivision, a lot of kids

980
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:37.679
are going to come in and out of your house,

981
00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:40.360
and some parents, a lot of parents actually say no,

982
00:49:40.519 --> 00:49:42.079
you can only play outside, right right?

983
00:49:42.519 --> 00:49:46.239
Yeah. Well, and just like the Chris's defense team argument,

984
00:49:46.360 --> 00:49:48.280
you can twist it around the other way. Just because

985
00:49:48.400 --> 00:49:50.639
Kim didn't like to have kids over at her house

986
00:49:50.679 --> 00:49:52.000
doesn't make her a killer one.

987
00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:55.840
She suffered from migraines, she was a student. You know,

988
00:49:56.079 --> 00:49:58.440
I can understand she was a single parent a lot

989
00:49:58.440 --> 00:50:01.360
of the time because he traveled, so yeah, she just

990
00:50:01.480 --> 00:50:02.880
might not have had a lot of time to deal

991
00:50:02.960 --> 00:50:05.480
with that stuff. After Kim passed away and they were

992
00:50:05.519 --> 00:50:08.360
going through the house scale, her mother in law found

993
00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:12.079
all these birthday cards that were unopened with the five

994
00:50:12.199 --> 00:50:14.159
dollars that she sent inside.

995
00:50:14.280 --> 00:50:16.880
Still, oh, so these were birthday cards that Gail sent

996
00:50:17.079 --> 00:50:20.079
to her children. Yeah, Oh interesting.

997
00:50:20.559 --> 00:50:23.800
The trajectory of the bullet that killed Cassandra proved that

998
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:26.119
she was shot from the front seat. That was the

999
00:50:26.239 --> 00:50:29.239
one bullet that they could trace, and they definitively could

1000
00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:32.480
tell like the exact trajectory of it, and that definitely.

1001
00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:34.719
Really points to either Kim or Chris. That could have

1002
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:35.360
been either of them.

1003
00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:38.440
Both Kim and Chris's blood was on the seat belt buckle.

1004
00:50:38.559 --> 00:50:40.440
And remember he said that he had left the car.

1005
00:50:40.960 --> 00:50:44.039
Yeah, and if he had been shot like from if

1006
00:50:44.079 --> 00:50:46.559
she had shot him from the passenger seat, his blood

1007
00:50:46.599 --> 00:50:49.559
wouldn't get over to the seat belt on her side

1008
00:50:49.599 --> 00:50:50.159
with the car.

1009
00:50:50.360 --> 00:50:52.719
I don't think so. And remember she had told her

1010
00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:56.119
doctor that she had a recent change in personality. Kim

1011
00:50:56.320 --> 00:50:59.599
was taking two drugs with a side effect of suicidal ideation.

1012
00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:01.840
But it's hard to believe that a person with no

1013
00:51:02.159 --> 00:51:05.599
history of suicidal ideation or violence would suddenly go on

1014
00:51:05.679 --> 00:51:09.360
a murder's rampage. There were no warning signs, and side

1015
00:51:09.400 --> 00:51:11.840
effect does not equal cause and effect.

1016
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:13.920
Well, what you said earlier too, is she didn't have

1017
00:51:14.679 --> 00:51:18.840
symptoms of depression, and so she was taking the drugs

1018
00:51:18.920 --> 00:51:20.440
for her anxiety. Is that right?

1019
00:51:21.079 --> 00:51:23.719
So you know she was actually taking the drugs mostly

1020
00:51:23.800 --> 00:51:28.000
for her migraine. The migraine together are used to treat migraine.

1021
00:51:28.039 --> 00:51:30.559
And so the doctor that testified said it was really

1022
00:51:30.840 --> 00:51:33.400
it would be really uncommon for someone who wasn't taking

1023
00:51:33.480 --> 00:51:38.039
it because of depression to have suicidal ideations.

1024
00:51:38.320 --> 00:51:43.239
And the suicidal ideation is typically in teenagers, well from

1025
00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:45.480
I think the age of like fifteen to twenty four.

1026
00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:45.880
Yeah.

1027
00:51:46.199 --> 00:51:50.480
Since Christopher Roan's conviction, some people staunchly believe he is innocent.

1028
00:51:50.760 --> 00:51:54.199
His parents are his biggest supporters and advocates. Bill Clutter,

1029
00:51:54.320 --> 00:51:58.119
co founder of Investigating Innocence and the Illinois Innocence Project,

1030
00:51:58.320 --> 00:52:03.119
is another of Chris's staunch advocates. Ex Indiana State trooper

1031
00:52:03.280 --> 00:52:06.519
David cam who was exonerated for the murder of his

1032
00:52:06.679 --> 00:52:09.519
wife and two children, is also a co founder of

1033
00:52:09.639 --> 00:52:14.239
Investigating Innocence. Remember we covered that case in three episodes

1034
00:52:14.239 --> 00:52:16.360
a while back, and it actually is one of our

1035
00:52:16.400 --> 00:52:20.159
most controversial cases. I still get people messaging me sometimes

1036
00:52:20.199 --> 00:52:22.599
like I can't believe you think he is innocent.

1037
00:52:22.760 --> 00:52:25.039
I remember leaving that case really being on the fence.

1038
00:52:25.239 --> 00:52:28.679
Yeah, Clutter, who worked as an attorney's investigator, said he

1039
00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:32.119
initially thought that Chris was responsible for the murders Untili

1040
00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:35.519
met him. He told Lauren Bright Pacheco of the Murder

1041
00:52:35.599 --> 00:52:39.239
in Illinois podcast quote, he just didn't strike me as

1042
00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:39.920
a murderer.

1043
00:52:40.440 --> 00:52:41.519
Okay, Well, there you have it.

1044
00:52:41.920 --> 00:52:44.719
I'm sure Kim, who by all accounts was a lovely,

1045
00:52:44.840 --> 00:52:48.239
lovely woman, did not present as a murderer either. But

1046
00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:51.280
sadly she's dead and Bill can't meet her and assess

1047
00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:51.880
her character.

1048
00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:55.199
Well, it just seems really strange for somebody who's involved

1049
00:52:55.280 --> 00:52:57.760
in the justice system in the way that he is

1050
00:52:57.920 --> 00:53:00.679
to make a judgment like that based on, you know,

1051
00:53:00.840 --> 00:53:03.239
just your impression of someone that, oh, exactly, Yeah, it

1052
00:53:03.280 --> 00:53:04.079
doesn't make any sense.

1053
00:53:04.599 --> 00:53:07.159
Clutter and others who believe that Christopher Vaughan is innocent

1054
00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:11.159
accused law enforcement of portraying him as a criminal mastermind

1055
00:53:11.280 --> 00:53:15.239
and having tunnel vision for failing to consider Kim a suspect.

1056
00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:19.880
I think that they have tunnel vision and confirmation bias. Yeah.

1057
00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:23.800
They heavily point to the opinion of disgraced former Illinois

1058
00:53:23.840 --> 00:53:29.000
State Police crime scene investigator Robert Diel he identified Kim

1059
00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:32.559
as suspect number one and Chris as suspect number two.

1060
00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:36.400
He claimed his opinion wasn't welcomed by the Illinois State

1061
00:53:36.440 --> 00:53:39.800
Police and he was taken off the Vaughan case, although

1062
00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:43.199
he was likely taken off the case because of his negligence,

1063
00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:46.039
and he now has an ax to grind with the

1064
00:53:46.119 --> 00:53:49.360
Illinois State Police, and he does speak pretty vocally about

1065
00:53:49.400 --> 00:53:53.280
this case and how he believes that his opinions weren't respected. Yeah,

1066
00:53:53.960 --> 00:53:56.679
Gail and Pete Vaughan, along with Bill Clutter were on

1067
00:53:56.840 --> 00:53:57.880
the Doctor Phil Show.

1068
00:53:58.159 --> 00:54:02.559
I never checked my common sense at the door. I

1069
00:54:02.840 --> 00:54:05.440
use common sense in looking at these things. And one

1070
00:54:05.480 --> 00:54:08.000
of the things that stuck out to me above all

1071
00:54:08.119 --> 00:54:11.519
else is Chris had talked about wanting to live in

1072
00:54:11.599 --> 00:54:14.320
the wilderness, live off the land, go off the grid.

1073
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:19.639
And if that were true, the last thing a man

1074
00:54:19.840 --> 00:54:22.599
that wanted to do that and knew how to do

1075
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:27.000
that would do would be to shoot himself in the wrist.

1076
00:54:28.239 --> 00:54:33.199
You don't render yourself one handed. If you're getting ready

1077
00:54:33.320 --> 00:54:36.320
to go live off the land into wilderness, maybe shoot

1078
00:54:36.360 --> 00:54:39.079
yourself through the meat of the leg. But to shoot

1079
00:54:39.159 --> 00:54:43.599
yourself twice takes a lot of commitment and to shoot

1080
00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:48.360
yourself in the wrist where you might never be able

1081
00:54:48.400 --> 00:54:50.559
to use that hand again when you're going to go

1082
00:54:50.719 --> 00:54:53.960
live off Just does it make common sense?

1083
00:54:54.800 --> 00:54:56.280
Well, there you have a Kim's guilty.

1084
00:54:56.800 --> 00:54:59.599
I mean, if you're going to go based on common sense,

1085
00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:02.480
I mean, there's so many other things that point in

1086
00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:05.440
the other direction that I'm just I'm a little bit

1087
00:55:06.199 --> 00:55:08.639
aghast at Doctor Phil's comments there.

1088
00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:11.880
I could only find one part of this Doctor Phil episode.

1089
00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:14.920
It was two parts. I don't believe that they told

1090
00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:18.000
him all the information. They didn't talk about any of

1091
00:55:18.719 --> 00:55:22.599
you know, the strippers or a lot of the other evidence.

1092
00:55:22.679 --> 00:55:25.960
They did not talk about that. Throughout the Murder in

1093
00:55:26.039 --> 00:55:30.360
Illinois podcast, the host keeps promising new evidence. Like all listeners,

1094
00:55:30.559 --> 00:55:33.719
I was waiting for a smoking gun evidence that would

1095
00:55:33.800 --> 00:55:37.719
clearly prove Christopher Vaughan's innocence and make this case worthy

1096
00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:40.760
of the attention of the Innocence Project and a fourteen

1097
00:55:40.840 --> 00:55:45.760
part Deep Dive podcast. Sometime in twenty twenty one, Christi Ravaughan,

1098
00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:49.000
amidst the production of the podcast, wrote his parents a letter.

1099
00:55:49.400 --> 00:55:52.159
In the letter, he admitted that he had never suffered

1100
00:55:52.199 --> 00:55:56.679
from disassociative Ansia, what he remembered. Everything that had happened

1101
00:55:56.760 --> 00:56:00.679
on the morning of June fourteenth, two thousand and seven, won.

1102
00:56:02.360 --> 00:56:05.360
Mom and dad. When Lauren showed interest in my case,

1103
00:56:05.440 --> 00:56:07.480
I truly thought she would go the way of the

1104
00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:11.000
others before. She still seems intent on telling the story.

1105
00:56:11.400 --> 00:56:14.199
I know I have not been forthcoming, approachable, or even

1106
00:56:14.280 --> 00:56:17.840
cooperative in talking about what happened. My standard deflection to

1107
00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:20.760
any question is that I do not remember. It has

1108
00:56:20.840 --> 00:56:24.119
been easier not to talk about the kids and more specifically,

1109
00:56:24.280 --> 00:56:27.159
what Kim did. I have been really hopeful that I

1110
00:56:27.199 --> 00:56:30.000
wouldn't need to talk about that morning. Ever, again, I

1111
00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:32.760
don't know why now should be any different. I don't

1112
00:56:32.800 --> 00:56:34.920
know if it would be better just to leave everything

1113
00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:37.679
as is. If I'm going to fill in the blanks,

1114
00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:40.760
it will be for you first. Perhaps that will be enough,

1115
00:56:40.880 --> 00:56:42.880
and it won't be of any real value to give

1116
00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:46.119
Lauren this. Just leave it as is. I did not

1117
00:56:46.280 --> 00:56:48.920
know how to or want to deal with what happened

1118
00:56:48.960 --> 00:56:51.880
that morning, so I lied about not remembering how kimberly

1119
00:56:51.960 --> 00:56:55.440
shot my kids then killed herself. This is what happened.

1120
00:56:55.840 --> 00:56:57.800
We drove to the water park, as Kim and I

1121
00:56:57.960 --> 00:57:00.719
had talked about the night before. Kim told me she

1122
00:57:00.840 --> 00:57:03.519
felt sick. I pulled over and got out to give

1123
00:57:03.559 --> 00:57:05.800
her a minute. When I was around the back of

1124
00:57:05.880 --> 00:57:08.880
the truck, heading back towards my door, it sounded like

1125
00:57:08.960 --> 00:57:12.280
the inside of the truck was exploding. I opened my door,

1126
00:57:12.559 --> 00:57:14.920
saw the gun Kim was holding, and jumped in my

1127
00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:18.199
seat to grab it. Kim fired at me. I fell

1128
00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:21.440
back out the door, preparing to make another attempt. Kim

1129
00:57:21.519 --> 00:57:24.400
looked at me and said, you will not take my kids.

1130
00:57:24.679 --> 00:57:27.519
You killed them. She then turned the gun on herself

1131
00:57:27.679 --> 00:57:30.519
and fired. I got back in to check the kids.

1132
00:57:30.840 --> 00:57:33.519
Nothing could be done. I thought to drive the truck.

1133
00:57:33.960 --> 00:57:36.679
Kim was slumped, so I tried to buckle her. My

1134
00:57:36.800 --> 00:57:40.320
hands shook badly. I couldn't buckle the belt. I couldn't

1135
00:57:40.400 --> 00:57:42.840
drive the truck. I got to the road to get help.

1136
00:57:43.400 --> 00:57:46.000
I was and am deeply ashamed that I failed to

1137
00:57:46.079 --> 00:57:48.920
protect the kids. I am ashamed that I drove Kim

1138
00:57:49.000 --> 00:57:51.960
to do something so horrible. I am ashamed that had

1139
00:57:52.039 --> 00:57:54.440
she not shot herself, I would have taken the gun

1140
00:57:54.559 --> 00:57:57.119
and shot her myself. I did not want to deal

1141
00:57:57.199 --> 00:58:00.280
with what happened. I was completely unequipped to do so.

1142
00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:02.880
I did not want to discuss why Kim did what

1143
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:05.199
she did. I did not want to repeat what she

1144
00:58:05.400 --> 00:58:08.199
said to me before she killed herself. I was certain

1145
00:58:08.280 --> 00:58:11.280
that the investigation would make clear what happened. How could

1146
00:58:11.320 --> 00:58:14.280
it not. During the interrogation, I was back and forth

1147
00:58:14.360 --> 00:58:18.239
between admitting my lie and continuing on. I was convinced

1148
00:58:18.239 --> 00:58:21.920
that being caught lying would have me convicted without further consideration,

1149
00:58:22.360 --> 00:58:25.280
regardless of the evidence. As I waited for the trial,

1150
00:58:25.360 --> 00:58:27.719
I realized that it really did not matter that I

1151
00:58:27.800 --> 00:58:30.960
had not fired a shot. I failed the kids. I

1152
00:58:31.079 --> 00:58:33.679
drove Kim to do what she did. What she said

1153
00:58:33.840 --> 00:58:37.119
was true. I was responsible. I will let the judge

1154
00:58:37.199 --> 00:58:39.920
decide what my punishment would be. I am sorry for

1155
00:58:40.039 --> 00:58:42.000
so many things. I have a lot of time to

1156
00:58:42.079 --> 00:58:45.199
go back over a lifetime of mistakes. Some made little

1157
00:58:45.280 --> 00:58:48.800
difference and others considerable. Saying that I did not remember

1158
00:58:48.880 --> 00:58:51.119
the morning of the tragedy was a mistake, and I

1159
00:58:51.239 --> 00:58:55.079
am sorry. Not taking responsibility was a mistake, and I

1160
00:58:55.159 --> 00:58:57.880
am sorry. I hope that, after waiting all this time

1161
00:58:57.920 --> 00:59:00.559
to talk about it, does not prove to be a mistake. Also,

1162
00:59:01.039 --> 00:59:01.719
love you both.

1163
00:59:02.079 --> 00:59:03.960
Chris, what do you think of the letter.

1164
00:59:04.639 --> 00:59:08.440
Wow, I mean it's it's pretty shocking. Like so he

1165
00:59:08.559 --> 00:59:11.599
wrote this to the host of the to his mom

1166
00:59:11.679 --> 00:59:14.639
and dad during ask them to basically share it with

1167
00:59:14.760 --> 00:59:18.639
those And this is her new evidence that you were waiting.

1168
00:59:18.840 --> 00:59:20.840
To hear through the pH She's calling this evidence.

1169
00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:22.880
Yeah, this does not seem like evidence to me. This

1170
00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:26.920
seems like somebody trying to find a new way to

1171
00:59:27.079 --> 00:59:30.320
argue his innocence and making up a new story that

1172
00:59:30.599 --> 00:59:31.760
maybe would catch on.

1173
00:59:32.199 --> 00:59:35.079
This letter led to a crime scene reconstruction paid for

1174
00:59:35.320 --> 00:59:40.760
by Jason Flome, a wealthy music industry executive, philanthropist, activist,

1175
00:59:41.119 --> 00:59:44.800
host of the Wrongful Conviction podcast, and founder of Lava

1176
00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:48.159
for Good who does some great work, including the Bone

1177
00:59:48.239 --> 00:59:52.559
Valley podcast. In July twenty twenty one, Clutter, Lauren Bright, Pacheco,

1178
00:59:52.639 --> 00:59:57.239
and other investigators and actors recreated the crime crime scene

1179
00:59:57.519 --> 00:59:59.920
using the letter Chris wrote to his parents as a guy.

1180
01:00:00.679 --> 01:00:03.679
It was not at all scientific, it was theater. They

1181
01:00:03.840 --> 01:00:06.840
determined that the blood evidence exonerates Chris and proves that

1182
01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:09.679
Kim was the shooter. But that's not how crime scene

1183
01:00:09.719 --> 01:00:14.159
investigation works. You can't work backwards. Chris has had over

1184
01:00:14.320 --> 01:00:17.599
ten years to recreate his narrative to fit this evidence.

1185
01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:20.280
There is a silver lining for Chris and all of this.

1186
01:00:20.719 --> 01:00:23.400
While he won't be living in the Canadian wilderness, he'll

1187
01:00:23.480 --> 01:00:28.280
still get to experience life without technology or modern day conveniences.

1188
01:00:28.719 --> 01:00:30.199
He'll definitely be roughing it.

1189
01:00:31.159 --> 01:00:35.079
What you said about recreating his narrative to fit the evidence,

1190
01:00:35.159 --> 01:00:37.320
that really that says what I wanted to say about

1191
01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:39.519
the letter, but I couldn't articulate at the time. That's

1192
01:00:39.519 --> 01:00:41.280
what it feels like, is Okay, He's looking at the

1193
01:00:41.320 --> 01:00:44.840
evidence and he's figuring out exactly what he could have

1194
01:00:44.920 --> 01:00:46.559
done to make the evidence fit well.

1195
01:00:46.559 --> 01:00:48.599
And these people that are helping him, I believe that

1196
01:00:48.639 --> 01:00:51.760
they're good people, and I believe that they believe that

1197
01:00:51.840 --> 01:00:54.480
he's innocent. And it's just sad to me.

1198
01:00:54.960 --> 01:00:55.159
Yeah.

1199
01:00:55.559 --> 01:00:58.840
Will County State's Attorney James Glasgow told the Chicago Sun

1200
01:00:58.880 --> 01:01:02.119
Times that Vaughan would go so free when hell freezes over.

1201
01:01:02.679 --> 01:01:05.280
We prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Vaughan shot his

1202
01:01:05.440 --> 01:01:08.639
children in the head and chest at plaint blank range

1203
01:01:08.840 --> 01:01:10.920
after putting a gun under the chin of his wife

1204
01:01:10.960 --> 01:01:14.000
and pulling the trigger. In January twenty twenty four, a

1205
01:01:14.119 --> 01:01:18.880
federal judge find attorney Keith Altman, who represented Galeen Pierre Vaughan,

1206
01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:22.320
five hundred dollars for their twenty twenty two lawsuit, which

1207
01:01:22.400 --> 01:01:26.079
the judge called recklessly indifferent and said it had no

1208
01:01:26.320 --> 01:01:29.400
foundation in the law and the lawsuit. Altman alleged the

1209
01:01:29.480 --> 01:01:32.199
state misled the grand jury in order to indict Vaughan

1210
01:01:32.559 --> 01:01:37.400
and misrepresented the blood evidence. So Christopher Vaughan remains incarcerated

1211
01:01:37.440 --> 01:01:41.440
at the Pinkneyville Correctional Center in Illinois, a medium security

1212
01:01:41.519 --> 01:01:45.079
president what. He is ineligible for parole and has exhausted

1213
01:01:45.079 --> 01:01:47.159
all of his appeals. The only way that he will

1214
01:01:47.199 --> 01:01:49.119
get out of prison is if he's granted a pardon

1215
01:01:49.199 --> 01:01:52.920
by Illinois Governor J. B. Pritzker, or if new evidence

1216
01:01:53.000 --> 01:01:56.000
comes to light that proves his innocence or merits a

1217
01:01:56.119 --> 01:01:56.960
new trial, or.

1218
01:01:56.960 --> 01:01:58.880
If he escapes. I don't know what the hell he's

1219
01:01:58.920 --> 01:02:03.679
doing in medium security prison, your wife and four people.

1220
01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:07.599
It's because he is a little guy, and I think

1221
01:02:07.679 --> 01:02:10.239
he's I think he's probably in danger. I don't know.

1222
01:02:11.480 --> 01:02:14.679
I wasn't able to find much information about his prison life.

1223
01:02:15.199 --> 01:02:16.679
This is the hard part. This is the part that

1224
01:02:16.719 --> 01:02:18.960
I always get emotional in and you do too. But

1225
01:02:19.119 --> 01:02:21.079
if I can't do it, you're going to take over Oka.

1226
01:02:21.320 --> 01:02:24.559
But it's really important that we remember these these people

1227
01:02:24.639 --> 01:02:27.719
as people and not just victims. Abby Vaughan was a

1228
01:02:27.880 --> 01:02:31.079
gifted artist. She loved playing soccer and was a terrific goalie.

1229
01:02:31.320 --> 01:02:33.960
She loved to read fantasy books and also enjoyed writing

1230
01:02:34.039 --> 01:02:37.360
her own books. She had a goldfish named Larry. Sandy

1231
01:02:37.519 --> 01:02:41.280
was a natural leader. Her family nicknamed her Commander Sander

1232
01:02:41.440 --> 01:02:44.559
because of her take charge attitude. She loved to correl

1233
01:02:44.639 --> 01:02:47.960
her siblings and cousins to perform skits and play backyard

1234
01:02:48.039 --> 01:02:52.000
sports and games. She loved animals, especially frogs, and planned

1235
01:02:52.039 --> 01:02:55.119
to start a dog walking business in her neighborhood. Blake

1236
01:02:55.239 --> 01:02:58.360
loved reading in baseball. He was a walking encyclopedia of

1237
01:02:58.440 --> 01:03:02.000
baseball facts. He enjoyed being a Cub Scout and especially

1238
01:03:02.119 --> 01:03:05.039
love the Soapbox Derby. He was looking forward to seeing

1239
01:03:05.119 --> 01:03:08.440
the new Fantastic Four movie. Kim loved being a wife

1240
01:03:08.480 --> 01:03:10.480
and mother. She was an athlete in high school and

1241
01:03:10.599 --> 01:03:14.119
still enjoyed playing volleyball. She was an enthusiastic Brownie and

1242
01:03:14.159 --> 01:03:16.719
Girl Scout leader for her daughter's troops and an avid

1243
01:03:16.840 --> 01:03:18.840
volunteer at her children's schools.

1244
01:03:19.039 --> 01:03:21.960
Rest in Peace, Abby, Sandy Blake, and Kim.

1245
01:03:22.519 --> 01:03:25.079
I listened to the Murder in Illinois podcast as one

1246
01:03:25.119 --> 01:03:28.199
of my sources, and I know how hard podcasters were,

1247
01:03:28.440 --> 01:03:32.480
and I never want to say anything negative about another podcast,

1248
01:03:33.000 --> 01:03:34.480
but I just want to say that I found it

1249
01:03:34.639 --> 01:03:39.760
incredibly one sided, biased, and disrespectful to the victims, especially Kim.

1250
01:03:40.199 --> 01:03:45.000
The podcast host damages her credibility by exclusively telling Chris's

1251
01:03:45.039 --> 01:03:47.760
story without presenting the other side of the story. That

1252
01:03:47.880 --> 01:03:51.280
approach might be acceptable in some cases, but in my opinion,

1253
01:03:51.639 --> 01:03:56.239
the evidence simply does not support Christopher Vaughan's innocence. Blaming

1254
01:03:56.280 --> 01:03:58.920
a woman who is no longer here to defend herself

1255
01:03:59.079 --> 01:04:02.440
feels profound wrong. The host doesn't say a single kind

1256
01:04:02.519 --> 01:04:05.519
word about kimber Le Vaughan or present any witnesses who do.

1257
01:04:06.119 --> 01:04:09.000
Even if you believe Kim shot the children, it wasn't

1258
01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:12.320
a deliberate act. It was a tragic moment of possibly

1259
01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:16.079
drug induced psychosis, something that should be met with empathy,

1260
01:04:16.239 --> 01:04:19.440
not vilification. But to be clear, I do not think

1261
01:04:19.519 --> 01:04:22.239
that is what happened here. There is simply no evidence

1262
01:04:22.320 --> 01:04:26.880
whatsoever that Kim was suicidal. I'm also deeply bothered by

1263
01:04:26.920 --> 01:04:31.119
how Chris's defense and Pacheco portray antidepressants. While there is

1264
01:04:31.199 --> 01:04:35.360
a small slightly increased risk of suicidal thoughts, it's rare

1265
01:04:35.719 --> 01:04:39.360
decreases with age and time spent on the drug. Taking

1266
01:04:39.440 --> 01:04:43.840
antidepressants shouldn't carry a stigma. These medications help millions of

1267
01:04:43.880 --> 01:04:46.719
people live better lives. That said, if you are a

1268
01:04:46.800 --> 01:04:50.320
loved one notices changes in mood or behavior while taking

1269
01:04:50.440 --> 01:04:53.760
any medication, always check in with your doctor. And I

1270
01:04:53.880 --> 01:04:56.679
am not an expert, just someone who has carefully researched

1271
01:04:56.719 --> 01:04:59.480
this case and formed my own opinion. I try to

1272
01:04:59.480 --> 01:05:02.199
present both both sides, and it's okay if you disagree

1273
01:05:02.239 --> 01:05:05.960
with me or rich And if Christopher barn truly is innocent,

1274
01:05:06.079 --> 01:05:08.119
I hope that he gets a second trial. If you

1275
01:05:08.239 --> 01:05:10.840
believe in his innocence, there is a petition that you

1276
01:05:10.960 --> 01:05:13.960
can sign on change dot org. Right, I have some

1277
01:05:14.119 --> 01:05:17.760
questions for you before we wrap up here. Do you

1278
01:05:17.880 --> 01:05:20.599
think that there's any possibility that Kim was the murderer?

1279
01:05:21.039 --> 01:05:25.599
I mean, very very small possibility, certainly not reasonable doubt,

1280
01:05:25.639 --> 01:05:28.000
possibility in my mind, I think, and again I didn't

1281
01:05:28.000 --> 01:05:30.239
sit through the trial, but if I based on what

1282
01:05:30.320 --> 01:05:32.400
I've heard, if I was on that jury, I think

1283
01:05:32.480 --> 01:05:34.639
I would have had no problem voting guilty.

1284
01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:38.440
Why did Chris decide to murder his family instead of

1285
01:05:38.519 --> 01:05:39.360
fake his own death?

1286
01:05:40.119 --> 01:05:43.440
You know, I'd a great question. I don't know why

1287
01:05:43.519 --> 01:05:47.039
he chose that, or why he didn't choose divorce instead,

1288
01:05:47.239 --> 01:05:50.199
But I don't know. I mean, maybe he just thought

1289
01:05:50.320 --> 01:05:53.320
he faking his own death would be too hard to

1290
01:05:53.400 --> 01:05:56.519
get away with, or I don't know. I mean, he

1291
01:05:56.639 --> 01:05:58.719
had talked to his friend about that, and then his

1292
01:05:58.880 --> 01:06:01.000
friend said he bond to have no part in it,

1293
01:06:01.119 --> 01:06:03.719
and so maybe he just decided that it wasn't going

1294
01:06:03.800 --> 01:06:04.360
to work that way.

1295
01:06:04.559 --> 01:06:08.159
Yeah, how emotionally immature. Must want to believe that the

1296
01:06:08.239 --> 01:06:11.440
stripper you have spent four or five hours with is

1297
01:06:11.519 --> 01:06:14.159
going to run away with you to the Yukon territories.

1298
01:06:15.079 --> 01:06:20.559
Pretty emotionally immature. And yeah, writing poetry to your stripper friends,

1299
01:06:20.639 --> 01:06:24.039
I mean, yeah, it just seems like he was very

1300
01:06:24.119 --> 01:06:25.280
immature emotionally.

1301
01:06:25.760 --> 01:06:28.960
How long would Chris have survived in the Yukon territories.

1302
01:06:31.199 --> 01:06:32.800
I think he would have been eaten by a bear.

1303
01:06:33.199 --> 01:06:35.480
Yeah, probably no offense to bears.

1304
01:06:35.519 --> 01:06:37.199
They would have spit him out because you probably tasted

1305
01:06:37.239 --> 01:06:39.760
really bad. Would you ever want to live off the grid?

1306
01:06:40.079 --> 01:06:42.400
I mean there's a there is a certain like, you know,

1307
01:06:42.559 --> 01:06:45.480
appeal to that, like being able to live off the grid,

1308
01:06:45.559 --> 01:06:47.880
But I think the reality of it would It would

1309
01:06:47.920 --> 01:06:51.480
just be really hard and really lonesome. And you know,

1310
01:06:51.599 --> 01:06:54.159
as you get older too, you need you need people,

1311
01:06:54.320 --> 01:06:57.400
you need help, you need medical attention and things like that.

1312
01:06:57.559 --> 01:07:00.039
So I just think, yeah, it would not be I

1313
01:07:00.039 --> 01:07:03.440
wouldn't live up to the romantic ideal of living off

1314
01:07:03.480 --> 01:07:03.800
the grid.

1315
01:07:03.960 --> 01:07:05.880
Yeah, I think it would have gotten bored pretty quickly.

1316
01:07:06.360 --> 01:07:08.719
I do want to thank Kyle for recommending this case.

1317
01:07:08.800 --> 01:07:11.000
I want to thank our friend Nancy, who is a

1318
01:07:11.039 --> 01:07:14.400
pharmacist who helps us with a little bit of research sometimes.

1319
01:07:15.000 --> 01:07:16.840
I forgot to mention at the top of the episode

1320
01:07:16.880 --> 01:07:19.719
when I was talking about Kylie in Primetime Crime, go

1321
01:07:19.880 --> 01:07:23.760
listen to Kylie's latest two part episode on Darlene Holt's

1322
01:07:24.199 --> 01:07:26.880
very interesting. She did a great job. I wanted to

1323
01:07:26.920 --> 01:07:29.679
talk about sources really quick. I did listen to the

1324
01:07:29.800 --> 01:07:33.079
Murder in Illinois podcast. That was not my primary source,

1325
01:07:33.159 --> 01:07:36.079
although I had you listen to a couple of episodes

1326
01:07:36.119 --> 01:07:38.000
of it too, because I didn't want to. I thought

1327
01:07:38.000 --> 01:07:39.239
maybe I was being biased.

1328
01:07:39.320 --> 01:07:42.760
Yeah, what was you agree? My impression was definitely that

1329
01:07:42.920 --> 01:07:46.039
way as well. I mean, but she did have interviews

1330
01:07:46.119 --> 01:07:48.880
with a lot of his family members, which was interesting

1331
01:07:48.960 --> 01:07:49.960
to hear their point.

1332
01:07:49.800 --> 01:07:51.719
Of view, right, And that was the information that I

1333
01:07:51.840 --> 01:07:55.119
gleaned from the podcast, was about Chris's childhood and some

1334
01:07:55.280 --> 01:07:58.000
of the relationships that they had with Kim. We have

1335
01:07:58.079 --> 01:08:01.719
a subscription to newspapers doc and a lot of time

1336
01:08:02.000 --> 01:08:04.119
there was not a lot of information about this case.

1337
01:08:04.280 --> 01:08:08.360
So I literally read every article in the Chicago Tribune

1338
01:08:08.559 --> 01:08:12.920
on this case, and after citing twenty five of them,

1339
01:08:13.320 --> 01:08:17.279
I stopped citing them. So if you're wondering where the

1340
01:08:17.399 --> 01:08:26.920
information came from, it's really all the Chicago Tribune. So recently,

1341
01:08:27.279 --> 01:08:29.880
we have had some new information about a couple of

1342
01:08:30.000 --> 01:08:32.640
cases that we've covered that we wanted to talk about briefly.

1343
01:08:33.159 --> 01:08:35.640
One case that we covered a while ago was Ellen Greenberg,

1344
01:08:35.760 --> 01:08:37.600
and that case is near and dear to my heart

1345
01:08:37.800 --> 01:08:41.920
because it's so baffling. There is finally some movement in

1346
01:08:42.039 --> 01:08:46.520
her case. After more than five years of contentious legal battles,

1347
01:08:46.920 --> 01:08:51.520
Philadelphia settled two civil lawsuits brought by Ellen's parents, Sandy

1348
01:08:51.600 --> 01:08:55.199
and Josh Greenberg, on February third, just days before jury's

1349
01:08:55.199 --> 01:08:57.840
selection began. In one of the cases, they settled for

1350
01:08:57.920 --> 01:09:01.520
an undisclosed amount of money sought to change the manner

1351
01:09:01.800 --> 01:09:06.239
of Ellen's death from suicide to homicide or undetermined, while

1352
01:09:06.239 --> 01:09:09.560
the second suit was for the emotional distress the botched

1353
01:09:09.680 --> 01:09:13.399
investigation caused the Greenbergs. The Greenbergs had been fighting with

1354
01:09:13.479 --> 01:09:17.159
the city of Philadelphia for fourteen years to change Ellen's

1355
01:09:17.199 --> 01:09:19.079
cause of death. That was the thing that they wanted

1356
01:09:19.119 --> 01:09:23.439
the most, and on January thirty first, doctor Marlon Osborne,

1357
01:09:23.760 --> 01:09:28.279
the original medical examiner, agreed to change the manner of

1358
01:09:28.399 --> 01:09:29.119
Ellen's death.

1359
01:09:29.199 --> 01:09:30.319
Oh wow, Just to.

1360
01:09:30.359 --> 01:09:33.399
Remind you, Ellen died in January of twenty eleven in

1361
01:09:33.520 --> 01:09:36.880
her apartment on a snowy night, from over twenty stab wounds,

1362
01:09:37.479 --> 01:09:40.720
some in seemingly impossible to reach spots on the back

1363
01:09:40.760 --> 01:09:43.119
of her head and neck. She was engaged to be

1364
01:09:43.239 --> 01:09:46.039
married the next summer to Sam Goldberg, with whom she

1365
01:09:46.159 --> 01:09:49.159
shared the apartment. The time of Ellen's death, Goldberg was

1366
01:09:49.199 --> 01:09:51.279
at the gym and came back to a locked apartment.

1367
01:09:51.560 --> 01:09:54.479
He had to break the door down. The police treated

1368
01:09:54.560 --> 01:09:57.640
Ellen's death as a suicide because she was alone and

1369
01:09:57.720 --> 01:10:01.000
the apartment was locked, they failed to do a proper investigation.

1370
01:10:01.520 --> 01:10:04.760
They never called a crime scene investigation, and all though

1371
01:10:04.840 --> 01:10:08.720
the medical examiner initially ruled her death as a homicide,

1372
01:10:09.039 --> 01:10:11.840
by this time it was too late to gather any

1373
01:10:11.880 --> 01:10:15.399
evidence from the crime scene. It had been professionally cleaned.

1374
01:10:15.840 --> 01:10:17.920
It seemed that Ellen's body had been moved, and it

1375
01:10:18.039 --> 01:10:21.600
was questionable whether or not Goldberg had actually broken down

1376
01:10:21.640 --> 01:10:25.560
the door. Yeah, the Greenbergs are hoping that there will

1377
01:10:25.600 --> 01:10:27.399
be a formal investigation.

1378
01:10:27.600 --> 01:10:29.239
Yeah. I hope there is too, but it sounds like

1379
01:10:29.399 --> 01:10:31.239
a lot of the evidence is gone.

1380
01:10:31.479 --> 01:10:34.439
Like, I don't know how you do an investigation so

1381
01:10:34.680 --> 01:10:38.000
far from the crime. I don't know. But one of

1382
01:10:38.039 --> 01:10:41.159
the cases you covered also got a lot of attention.

1383
01:10:41.840 --> 01:10:44.359
Yeah, this was the murder of Mary Yoder, who was

1384
01:10:44.439 --> 01:10:48.880
a chiropractor in upstate New York and Caitlin Conley, who

1385
01:10:49.560 --> 01:10:54.039
had been dating her son, Adam Yoder was convicted of

1386
01:10:54.520 --> 01:10:58.239
manslaughter I believe a few years back, and there was

1387
01:10:58.279 --> 01:11:00.640
recently a documentary about her case. I think it was

1388
01:11:00.680 --> 01:11:03.560
called Little Miss Innocent, and it's gotten a lot of

1389
01:11:03.640 --> 01:11:08.159
attention since then. But her conviction was actually overturned, which

1390
01:11:08.319 --> 01:11:10.359
was a real surprise. I didn't know it was even

1391
01:11:10.520 --> 01:11:13.279
like in I knew there was an appeal going on,

1392
01:11:13.399 --> 01:11:16.119
but I didn't know it was so close to being decided.

1393
01:11:16.720 --> 01:11:20.119
And I don't one hundred percent understand exactly the reason

1394
01:11:20.199 --> 01:11:21.920
for overturning it, but it was it was kind of

1395
01:11:22.000 --> 01:11:25.880
on a technicality that the warrant to search her phone

1396
01:11:26.279 --> 01:11:28.520
was limited in some way, and I'm not sure exactly

1397
01:11:28.600 --> 01:11:30.039
what the scope of the warrant was.

1398
01:11:30.359 --> 01:11:33.399
They access some text messages, right, the.

1399
01:11:33.399 --> 01:11:35.760
Police went beyond the scope of the warrant, and the

1400
01:11:35.880 --> 01:11:38.239
judge said that they had to throw out the conviction.

1401
01:11:38.680 --> 01:11:42.760
And she is now free from prison, and I think

1402
01:11:42.880 --> 01:11:46.000
the state still has to decide whether to try her

1403
01:11:46.079 --> 01:11:48.319
again or not this and this would the third time.

1404
01:11:48.640 --> 01:11:51.359
She was tried once before and it was a hung jury,

1405
01:11:51.720 --> 01:11:54.199
and then she was tried again and they wanted to

1406
01:11:54.800 --> 01:11:57.720
find her guilty of I believe murder in the second degree,

1407
01:11:58.000 --> 01:12:01.560
but the jury went back to Manslow because they weren't

1408
01:12:01.680 --> 01:12:04.680
They didn't feel comfortable knowing that if that she intended

1409
01:12:04.720 --> 01:12:06.600
to kill Mary, or if it was just that she

1410
01:12:06.720 --> 01:12:09.520
wanted to make her sick, so they convicted her of manslaughter,

1411
01:12:10.079 --> 01:12:12.920
and so now the question is, yeah, will they try

1412
01:12:12.960 --> 01:12:15.359
her a third time, especially because they won't be able

1413
01:12:15.399 --> 01:12:19.199
to use some of the phone evidence that was outside

1414
01:12:19.239 --> 01:12:21.039
of the scope of the warrant, and that was really

1415
01:12:21.479 --> 01:12:23.920
a big part of convicting her was finding this evidence

1416
01:12:24.000 --> 01:12:24.560
on her phone.

1417
01:12:24.680 --> 01:12:27.560
So yeah, and they can't try her for murder one

1418
01:12:27.680 --> 01:12:28.399
or murder too.

1419
01:12:28.479 --> 01:12:31.439
Right because she was basically acquitted of those charges already.

1420
01:12:31.479 --> 01:12:33.520
So it'll be interesting. This is another case that has

1421
01:12:34.439 --> 01:12:38.000
very mixed opinions out there. There are quite a few people,

1422
01:12:38.079 --> 01:12:41.680
including members of Mary Yoder's family, who will insist that

1423
01:12:42.079 --> 01:12:43.479
Caitlin Conley is innocent.

1424
01:12:43.880 --> 01:12:47.680
Well, and it's because of Bill had a relationship with

1425
01:12:47.800 --> 01:12:49.880
Mary's sister, and a lot of people think that that

1426
01:12:50.119 --> 01:12:51.039
was motive.

1427
01:12:51.199 --> 01:12:55.000
Yeah, And most of the evidence shows that the relationship

1428
01:12:55.119 --> 01:12:58.319
with Mary's sister started about two months after her death,

1429
01:12:58.359 --> 01:13:01.359
which was still pretty soon, you might argue. But people

1430
01:13:01.399 --> 01:13:04.720
that argue for Caitlin's innocence believe that he may have

1431
01:13:04.880 --> 01:13:07.960
started the affair before Mary's death and that was the

1432
01:13:08.039 --> 01:13:10.880
motive for murder. But there's not really any evidence to

1433
01:13:10.960 --> 01:13:15.439
show that. So I strongly believe that Caitlin did kill

1434
01:13:15.520 --> 01:13:18.880
Mary Yoga, but there are people who passionately believe otherwise.

1435
01:13:19.079 --> 01:13:21.800
Yeah, well, I'm with you, kid, I believe you. We

1436
01:13:21.920 --> 01:13:24.760
share a brain. We do kind of, we actually don't.

1437
01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:27.560
I think our raids are very different. There are three

1438
01:13:27.680 --> 01:13:30.479
other trials in twenty twenty five that I am looking

1439
01:13:30.600 --> 01:13:31.439
forward to.

1440
01:13:32.199 --> 01:13:32.640
Busy here.

1441
01:13:33.159 --> 01:13:37.319
Yeah, in August of twenty twenty five, we have Brian Coberger.

1442
01:13:37.600 --> 01:13:40.520
Oh yeah, In April of twenty twenty five, we have

1443
01:13:40.680 --> 01:13:44.800
Corey Richins, and Brian Walsh is going to trial in

1444
01:13:44.880 --> 01:13:46.399
October of twenty twenty five.

1445
01:13:46.520 --> 01:13:46.920
Oh wow.

1446
01:13:47.199 --> 01:13:50.319
It's possible that any of these could you know, pushed back.

1447
01:13:50.479 --> 01:13:52.760
But so far those three big trials.

1448
01:13:52.880 --> 01:13:55.279
Yeah, the Brian Walsh one, we talked about that way

1449
01:13:55.600 --> 01:13:58.479
like not long after we started the podcast, right, yeah,

1450
01:13:58.720 --> 01:14:01.439
and it's been so long ago, but that's wild that

1451
01:14:01.560 --> 01:14:02.760
that's finally coming to trial.

1452
01:14:03.079 --> 01:14:06.319
So we have our first big snowstorm that's supposed to

1453
01:14:06.359 --> 01:14:08.359
happen tomorrow. I know you're excited.

1454
01:14:09.000 --> 01:14:12.680
I wouldn't say I'm excited. Oh really, I would have

1455
01:14:12.720 --> 01:14:15.239
been excited. I would have been excited about about a

1456
01:14:15.279 --> 01:14:17.640
big snowstorm back in December, But now it's like, I

1457
01:14:17.760 --> 01:14:19.840
just want winter to be over, even though we really

1458
01:14:19.920 --> 01:14:21.680
haven't had any significant snow yet.

1459
01:14:21.800 --> 01:14:22.000
Yeah.

1460
01:14:22.439 --> 01:14:24.560
Well, I have like a whole day plan for us.

1461
01:14:24.680 --> 01:14:26.720
We're going to watch Fargo, and then we're going to

1462
01:14:26.760 --> 01:14:29.119
have a snowball fight, and then I'm going to make

1463
01:14:29.159 --> 01:14:33.199
homemade pretzels and I'm making chicken and dumplings for dinner,

1464
01:14:33.760 --> 01:14:34.359
and then.

1465
01:14:35.239 --> 01:14:37.520
We can really have it all planned out. I don't

1466
01:14:37.520 --> 01:14:40.159
know if you remember this, but I actually work at home,

1467
01:14:40.520 --> 01:14:43.439
so I don't get snow days at my job unless

1468
01:14:43.439 --> 01:14:44.720
our internet and power.

1469
01:14:44.600 --> 01:14:48.680
Go out, which then right, but unless you're I mean,

1470
01:14:48.760 --> 01:14:52.600
you sound a little hoarse. Yeah, you're probably not feeling good.

1471
01:14:52.720 --> 01:14:55.560
Yeah, that snowstorm probably won't help, So okay, I'm with you.

1472
01:14:55.640 --> 01:14:59.560
All right. I've almost forgot to say congratulations to our

1473
01:15:00.000 --> 01:15:05.560
friend and listener Elena for qualifying for the Boston We're

1474
01:15:05.600 --> 01:15:07.680
so proud of you and we're so excited. And I

1475
01:15:07.720 --> 01:15:10.760
don't it probably doesn't have everything to do with us,

1476
01:15:10.800 --> 01:15:12.359
but I know she listens to us a lot when

1477
01:15:12.399 --> 01:15:16.000
she runs. Yeah. No, we're so proud of you and

1478
01:15:16.640 --> 01:15:20.079
that's great. Thank you all so much for listening and

1479
01:15:20.159 --> 01:15:23.279
your support and your friendship. We appreciate it so so much.

1480
01:15:23.800 --> 01:15:26.680
Until next time. Don't kill your husband, don't kill your wife.

1481
01:16:01.720 --> 01:16:02.279
The clock