Laci and Scott Peterson - Part 3

0:00 Hi, I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife, and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary kill Hey Rich, that was something little, Hi, Tina. Hey, it's still December seventeen, and we're maybe a little slap happy. Maybe well, maybe we are sequestered. Like I said last time, we are not leaving this room until we finished. You took a twenty minute break, though I did. Yeah, we both, even me.

0:48 Jurors who are sequestered get to take little breaks now and then. Yeah, yeah, but we're gonna, yeah, I'm going to finish this darn case of three part. I think we swore early on we would never do more than a part. Now I don't think we ever said that we did we did. Could you give me the day and time because I do not really well. November seventeenth, twenty twenty two, we were not podcasting twenty now. We were actually we were okay, all right, Oh I feel a little woozy. Yeah I know, but we are here and we're going to like you said, We're going to finish this off, and what a ride. I hope you guys aren't bored by this. It really is a very interesting case. I mean, there's so much to it is. I think you know a lot of things. You think you know that, like I thought I knew it, but you know, once, I really do enjoy when we can do a deep dive, and really I feel like we kind of went knee deep. We didn't go super deep. We went pretty deep though. I think we did a good job. But we've read quite a few books on this, Thank you. I think you read a couple more than I did. I think you're going to talk about it, but you actually read the jury book too, right, I did. I read part of the jury book. I read part of the book. I can't remember the name of it, but it was by a deadly game the defense attorney.

1:57 Oh oh, it was basically the case you know for Scott Peterson's innocence, and then a deadly game by Captain Fryar read the sister, and then the one by his sister, and how do you do it? And you have a full time job. I did not read all of those books start to finish. I picked, you know, I started a number Fry's book, and I didn't get very far. And I wanted to read Lacey's mom's book, but I didn't end up doing that. Yeah, so much information. It's a lot, and our library did not have a lot of these books, so that was kind of problematic. But anyway, we're here and happy New Year, Happy New Year, New Year, Happy New Year, twenty twenty four. Yeah, I like an even year, twenty twenty four is good. I don't like god numbers as much as even numbers. Is that weird? Yeah, it's I don't think it's weird, but I think it's weird that you have that feeling. Like if I had that feeling, I'd be like, yeah, that's just that's me. But the fact that you like even years better than odd years, You're gonna have to break that down for me. Why because I've a number? Because I don't like numbers.

2:55 I just feel like I am I have more of those kind of weird like neurosis. Where what are your other neuroses? I don't know, I can't, but you have to eat breakfast at eight am or you yeah, ie things like that, Like I'm very I don't know. It's interesting because you know, as old as we are, we're still learning things about ourselves and each other. Yeah, what are your resolutes? We have to talk about resolutions, you know, we're you know, like I said, it's December seventeenth. Yeah, but I could just go copy what I said last year. I'm just gonna keep being awesome, is what you're gonna say. Yes, you're you're pretty great. You're a great partner in crime and s I said, partner in crime and a partner in my path a lot.

3:44 That's very nice. I'm gonna be nicer to you. How about that? All right, you're pretty nice to you? Ready, you know I will acknowledge that I could. There's always room to be a little nicer. Pretty. I am very nice. But if I get a little stressed and you know, anxious or whatever, you know, you're probably the I don't lash and I don't even lash out. I just get a little quiet. And I think I get quiet when I and I get a little grumpy. I'm usually somewhat verbose. And yeah, anyway, well yeah, so what do you think? Just the same old, same old, gonna exercise more. This is going to be really need to I really need to get in shape. I've like I've gotten close to being in shape and then I backslide.

4:25 It happens all the time. I mean, I think that's just our way as humans. But I don't want that to be the way anymore. I have definitely I've made the connection between my mental health and exercising, and I've I've been doing a pretty good job. I'm not flawless, but it's really important to take the time for yourself and unplug. Yeah, I think that's going to be one of like, like I said, we still have a couple of weeks to think about it. I think I'm going to try to unplug more. And I have been kind of doing that a little more with Sorry, I love Mary Kill like social media. I've just been kind of just so busy. I haven't had as time for that. So I am gonna, you know, not unplug completely, but you take a little more time to you know, be in nature and read. That's today. We went for a walk in the park and you didn't even bring your phone with you. That was a stake. We laughed about that a lot because we kept think because our kids, we didn't tell our kids we were going, and my phone was left. I don't know where it was, and of course I don't leave home without it. We just kept saying that our kids are going to think that you took me and murdered me, and but that's really not fun. Ever, you wouldn't you would, That's how it always, I mean, everyone thought Scott Peterson was a good guy too. And look where we're at, three parts? And oh I did bring a snack.

5:41 Yes, we should have the same because the part three this was unplanned. So I really just did do a pantry dive and I was just going to bring you like a piece of moldy bread, but I found something in our pantry, not a piece of bread. Now it's not a piece of moldy bread. And I can't eat another bite of sugar today. I don't know if I can't either, really saying something that really you don't have to eat it if you don't want to. But no, oh, that these are the peanut What are the animals? Ye? Reces dipped animal crackers, bite sized animal crackers covered in peanut butter, candy and dipped in milk chocolate. Cool. Well, you know I love anything Reese related. You sure do. Most people do. They call them animal crackers and not animal cookies, because they're really more like cookies than crackers. And why do you call them muff and a muffin and not a cupcake? There are two different things, but these are more These are closer to cookies than crackers. You have to admit that. Oh yeah, and I got them at Costco. I've only seen them at Costco. But when you go to Costco, you wouldn't know which hates Costco. I didn't hate Costco, but you'd rather you would rather not go to You'd rather probably get a tooth filled than go to Costco.

6:54 No, no, okay, but close close. I've only seen them there, but it's almost like every literally every person walking out of the story had a bag of these. So I was like, I guess I better try them. And they're well, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna give it away. We're going to take a quick break, be right back. Well, there was nothing not to like about that. Yeah, you eight one. I have had pay too much sugar today. They didn't, but yeah, I'm I'm good with the sugar. I did give you a little shmear of nutella. It was pretty good. Is it good? Yeah? Check them out Reese's dipped animal crackers. Are you ready to do this thing?

7:36 I'm ready to wrap it up? Yeah, right, all right, get Scott forever? I know, Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. Yeah. I don't think he's going to be out of our minds forever, but hopefully for the near future. So if you haven't listened to parts one and two, you should definitely do that. We're not going to do a long recap, but where we are right now, and the story is Lacey disappeared on December twenty fourth of two thousand and two. There's been tons of searches. Amber Fry came forward with her story about her relationship with Scott the press conference there, Lacey's family then turned against Scott. They were kind of behind him, supporting him. I wanted to mention I think I forgot too.

8:22 The last episodes, Scott referred to Lacey's parents as mom and dad, and even after Lacey's disappearance, he would still call Sharon and be like, Mom, Hi, Mom, and I just always felt a little creepy to me. Yeah, I can see that. Well. Another thing I wanted to share too, just a short little anecdote before I forget the book that Scott's sister, Anne Bird wrote. She had a lot of different stories in there about Scott's behavior. It just things that he did that just seemed off, and she by the way, she was behind him at first, yeah, and then over time she became convince that he was guilty of Lacey's murder, which was very The rest of Scott's family was very upset with her about this.

9:07 It really kind of severed ties with the family. But one story that I thought was just just another example of Scott just being souper and such a womanizer. Anne had a babysitter who was twenty two years old, a young attractive woman, and she came over. Scott just turned into a different person, like he just started He didn't give her roses, but he'd just he started flirting with her. And then another time she was over, he was like, Oh, we're gonna hang out, We're gonna make flirteenis, and he made this mixed drink and she got supernk. She had a boyfriend first of all, and she got super uncomfortable and she ended up having to leave. It was just such a creepy thing. And apparently Scott told his mom about her too, because Anne wrote in her book that there was a couple of times that Scott's mom, Jackie, would be talking to her on the phone and saying, well, I wish Scott could meet someone like your babysitter like that. She just seems perfect for him, and just just the whole thing just creeps me out. Yeah, that's very ikey. Yeah, yeah, creepy guy. Where we're going to pick up now is in April of two thousand and three, so about what four months after Lacey disappeared. Yeah, so Scott this whole time, like he I don't think he went back to Modesto. I think, like you said, he stayed with Anne for a while and his family a lot of them were in the San Diego area.

10:35 Yeah, and he stayed in San Diego a lot, so he was just kind of I don't know who was golfing he was. Yeah, I don't think he was working that whole time. Yeah, And Anne and her family had a they had like a cottage somewhere like up north that he would stay there sometimes. And he actually stayed with Anne's adoptive parents at their house a couple of times because she gave him the key, which was down near San Diego also oh yeahow. But on April thirteenth of two thousand and three, a couple was walking their dog along the northern shore of the San Francisco Bay when their dogs started frantically sniffing at something, and it was the body of a baby, which we would soon learn was Connor. The location was about three and a half miles northwest of the Berkeley Marina and not quite a mile from Brooks Island, which is where Scott said that he was fishing on Christmas Eve. I'm not going to go into much detail on the condition of Connor's body. I know you're going to talk a little bit about the autopsy in a minute. But there was a piece of what turned out to be like a fiberglass type tape that seemed to be looped and either tied or tangled around his neck. I've heard this described as, and I am going to talk about it a little bit, tape, but also twine. Yeah.

11:46 I've heard it described in multiple ways, and I've seen pictures of it. To me, it looks like it almost looks like a like plastic like if you had like shrink wrap that was you know, twisted up into a twine like type of thing. But yeah, I've seen it described multiple ways. I'm not sure exactly it's attle concusing. The next day, Lacey's body was found by someone taking a walk near Point Isabelle, which is a little over a mile southeast of where Connor's body had washed up and a mile and a half east of Brooks Island. Again not going into too much detail on the condition of her body, but I'll just say it was badly decomposed when compared to Connor's. I am going to elaborate on this, so do you want me to just take over? Sure? So, Lazy and Connor had been missing for one hundred and sixteen days when they were found, so that was, you know, four months yep. Doctor Brian Peterson no relations, was the medical examiner who performed Connor's autopsy. Like you said, there was one and a half loops of clear packing tape were found around Connor's neck with a knot described as a knot near his left shoulder. The tape was not thought to be any type of ligature because there was like like a gap between his neck and the tape. Some people originally thought that he must have been born and someone like put a bag over his head and taped the bag to suffocate him. There was also tape on his this is very confusing to me, tape on his left ear that pinned the ear down and like when they took

13:22 some people thought it originally could be kelp, but it had more of a tape like consistency. But when it was removed, his ear like stayed in place, like stayed folded down. His body had began to decompose what it was described in relatively good condition. And this is very graphic, but it was said to be like almost like a jelly like consistency because he'd been in the water for so long. There was a significant cut on Connor's torso possibly and afflicted after his death, from his chest to his right shoulder. You said he weighed three and a half pounds. My source said it was two and a half pounds. I'm not sure, you know, in that range.

14:09 And he was nineteen inches long, so he was, you know, getting close to full term. There was no vernux on the body. Vernix is that do you know what that is? It's kind of the waxy substance that covers a newborn, like you know, as soon as the baby is born, and they kind of rubbed the baby to get the vernux off, So the vernux was not on his body, which some people would say points to him being born, but it probably is that the vernux just hadn't formed yet. Yeah, his skin was soft. A portion of the umbilical cord remained, but it was only about a quarter of an inch. It appeared not to have been cut, but like it disintegrated, it fell apart.

14:52 Connor's gestational age was guessed to be full term, which confused me for a long time because I thought, like, full term is thirty seven to forty two weeks, okay, but I think some people describe like thirty four weeks as full term, so it's kind of a wide range. Yeah. I had found something that estimated the gestational age as between thirty three and thirty eight weeks, exactly the same here thirty three weeks he was. I think Lacey was thirty three weeks and one day pregnant, And there was just some discrepancies, Like I think you're going to get to it in the child. Okay, I won't go any further than but I kind of think it might have been hard to determine because of the length of time he was in the water and tissues expand and decompose when left in the water, and the pathologist said that they could not roll out that he had a live birth. It was estimated that Connor's time and the water unprotected was more was not more than a couple of days. Likely he had still been in Lacey's womb, which protected him from the elements for the majority of time that he was in the water.

16:04 Yeah, and I think that's why the condition of his body was pretty different than Lacey's right, because he had been protected in her womb more than likely. Yeah, and that's what I had believed that he was possibly had been live birth, But after I did my research, I was like, no, it sounds like he was still in utero when she was thrown into the bay, which is so devastating but poignant. This is going to be when I start tearing up. But I think about Lacey and how much she wanted to be a mother and the fact that she was able to protect him. Yeah, and she did, so it's just so sad. On Sunday, April thirteenth, at four pm, one mile away from Brooks Island, that's when Lacey was found and this is really hard. You guys might want to fast forward a couple of minutes because I am going to talk about how the state of her body a little bit. Lacey was found in her head and her arms were missing. Her left leg from the knee down was missing, as well as her right foot. Her internal organs were also absent except for her uterus and cervix. And Lacey's cervix and this again is another data point that I was not aware of. Lacey's cervix was intact and closed, meaning that Connor probably was not born. There was deterioration in Lacey's abdomen.

17:33 I cannot say that word, and that's likely how Connor was expelled, not from Lacey's uterus, so he came out through the abdominal wall. Yeah. Yeah. A marine life had taken root in Lacey's body cavity, and there was there was no visible trauma to Lacey's body. There was no evidence of stabbing or a gunshot. When Lacey was found, she was wearing light tan maternity pan that were still buttoned and zipped. She was not wearing the black pants that numerous people had allegedly spotted her in. So to me, that was pretty important in fact. Yeah, yeah, the fact that her pants were still buttoned and zipped is kind of nuts to me that she was in the water for that long and her pants were still there. And there was also some tape on Lacey's body. Some people have said that the wound that Connor had across his chest could have been caused by a boat propeller, but I at this point, I am going to say that I'm pretty sure that Connor was not born prior to being dumped in the bay. What do you think? Yeah, I completely agree, and again we'll talk about it in the trial as well, some of the testimony about that. But I am also completely convinced of that the discrepancy on his gestational age kind had thrown me yea for years, but I think that was not as big of a discrepancy as the fence team would lead you to believe. Right, That's all I have about the autopsy. But just isn't that her? It's just her.

19:06 It's just so devastating that this beautiful woman who just wanted to be a mother was, you know, found. It. It's so sad. It's it's great that they were found. I mean, can you imagine if they had never been found. I think it would have been a much harder road to Scott would probably be a free man. Yeah, I think so. Well. I mean some Lazy's other body parts have not They've never been found, and that's devastating. And again the state of her body and her limbs being you know, not with her body led me to believe that there probably were anchors used on her limbs. Lazy's head was never found and her limbs were never found, and that devastates me that Sharon had to very partial remains of her daughter. Yeah, that's really sad. It's really sad. The anchors were never found. They really looked hard. Yeah, it's thought that maybe the anchor is disintegrated. Oh really, Yeah, because if you think, you know cement, and if they were new, you know, it was relatively new cement. Yep. I wonder too, Like I know a lot has been said about how did you know, Oh, he wouldn't have been able to get the boat that Lacey's body out of the boat without capsizing.

20:22 And I don't know how heavy these anchors were, but how could you guestimate how heavy a bucket anchor would be? I mean at least depends on how big the bucket was, but like at least maybe like twenty pounds or twenty five pounds. I don't know, I mean that would add I mean, if Lacey was approximately one hundred and fifty pounds, that that would add one hundred pounds, right, So maybe maybe that might be too heavy. Maybe Yeah, I'm not sure. So to get Lacey's body into the water must have been pretty challenging, and I'm curious how the anchors would have been attached to her limbs. You had an idea, well, I think the anchors had like a piece of rebar sticking out of them that you could tie a rope to, or it's like just a piece of metal like a metal rod that you could bend or whatever. So it had like a you know, like you had concrete, but then sticking out of it would be like a little metal like a U piece that you could loop a rope through or something like that. Okay, okay, So you agree that there were probably at least three to four anchors that were attached to her limbs. I think so.

21:25 Yeah, something kind of I didn't realize, like how vulnerable your head is and your head is not as securely attached to your body as you think it is, okay, And I there was a storm the night before I think that Connor was found, and I think the bay might be relatively like the waters might be kind of calm. But the storm was a pretty significant storm, so I think it might have stirred things up and maybe that's what caused them to surface. Oh could be yeah. After the news broke about the recovery of the bodies, police began trying to determine where Scott was. Like you mentioned earlier, he was driving like different vehicles. He was staying in a bunch of different places, so they didn't actually know exactly where he was. They had a GPS tracker on his pickup truck, but he knew about it. He swapped vehicles with his brother John at one point. So on April sixteenth, three days after Connor's body was found, they located Scott in San Diego through his cell phone. He was staying at the house that belonged to his sister Anne Bird's adoptive parents, so they immediately dispatched surveillance units to the location to keep an eye on him. They saw him going for a walk and they noted that he had a goatee and his hair was bleached, which was quite a different look than he had previously, but he still had the same like gross bey d eyes. Yes, he could not change that. Well, I mean like people say, oh, he looks so much different, like, uh, he didn't really, I mean I don't know. Yeah, I think he told people that he had just he had

22:57 swimming in a pool with chlorine and that caused his hair to become bleached, which seems a little and everyone was swimming in chlorine makes your beard grow too. Yes. The police decided that they would arrest Scott, but they wanted to wait until the DNA analysis came back to prove that the bodies that were found belonged to Lacy Encounter, but they wanted to keep an eye on him. They were worried that he was going to head for the Mexican border. Scott he did. Yeah, Scott knew he was being followed and he did everything he could to shake them as he was driving. On April eighteenth, media reports were saying that the identification of the bodies was imminent along with Scott's arrest because he was driving so erratically. He was trying to lose his tail and because of the media reports, they decided to arrest him immediately that day.

23:45 And wasn't it kind of an oj type chase. I don't know if it was quite like that. The OJA chase was, you know, very slow speed with all these police. This was he was actually you know, swerving around, like changing lanes really quickly getting off like he was trying to lose them. The chase went on for quite a while, though, didn't it. It was a couple of hours it did. I don't know exactly how long, but yes, it did go on for a long time. I heard some I think they said Scott was actually a very good driver. Yeah, yeah, they eventually when they did pull him over finally, it was near the Tory Pines golf Club and they immediately placed him under arrest for murder. Wasn't he headed there? Yeah? Yeah, that's apparently he was. So in the car that Scott was driving, they found I'm going to list out a number of things that were in the car, and there's a lot of things list. Yeah, I'm not going to include everything, but they found a knife, they found a driver's license of Scott's brother, John, They found fifteen thousand dollars in cash, three credit cards, two in Scott's name and one in his sister Anne's name, A bunch of camping gear, including a water purifier, a climbing rope, duct tape, firestarters, leather gloves, a camp axe, binoculars, a mask and snorkel, and a fish rod and real There were twelve pairs of shoes and an entire wardrobe of clothes. Twelve pairs of shoes. Twelve pairs of shoes, Yes, do you have twelve pairs of shoes? You? Probably I do, but I would never travel with twelve pairs of shoes. It would be a very

25:15 unlike rich thing. Yes, sleeping pills and viagra. Four cell phones, which I did. I never knew about that before. Like, why did he have four cell phones? I think some of them are burner phones. Yeah, I'm sure they were. He had a bunch of Mexican currency as well. I don't know exactly how much, but it looked like he was planning an extended camping trip out in the wilderness, maybe in Mexico. Who knows the car itself. It turned out he had bought for cash less than a week earlier. He had sold Lacey's vehicle. Yeah, and in the paperwork that he filed for the transaction, he used the name Jacqueline Peterson, claiming it was his own name. He told the person he bought the car from, He's like it was kind of like a boy named Sue. Situation.

25:59 My parents named meet Jacqueline, but I just go by Jack. What an idiot. Yeah, he wasn't able to show the seller his ID, but he gave him a driver's license number that he said was from Florida. So basically bought this car for cash. He did not want the person to know who he was. Shortly after Scott's arrest, an old classmate of his at cal Poly called the police to tell them about a conversation with Scott that he recalled from back around nineteen ninety five. He said that Scott described to him how he would kill someone, assuring him he would never do it, of course, but Scott told his friend that he would wrap his victim's head in a plastic bag, then weigh it down and throw the body in salt water. That way, he said, the salt and the fish would eat away at the fingers, destroying the fingerprints, and by weighing the head down, the body would eventually separate from the head. Without fingerprints or the person's head, Scott thought that they would not be able to identify the victim.

26:56 So again, you've got somebody coming forward, and you know, hindsight as always, you know, people hear about things, they come forward, So take it for what it's worth. But that, you know, the scenario that his friend described was very consistent, right, Yeah, But I vividly remember in high school sitting with my friend Laura and talking about how we were going to kill, like how we would get away with murder. So I think it is kind of a common Yeah, but yes, you're right, there are a lot of coincidences there. Yeah, with that, why don't we take a quick break. I know you're about to get into the trial, but I wanted to talk about motive really quick. That's something that I struggle with a little bit, is what was Scott's motive. I don't know.

27:45 Everyone's like, oh, Scott wanted to be with Amber. No, I don't think that was it. I don't believe he wanted to be with Amber either. I believe that Scott really liked the falling in love or the you know, the initial but I don't think he wanted anything long term. Yes, I I believe that is true. And I also think that because of the fact that Lacey was about to have a baby that was going to complicate his life a lot and had like going through a divorce or something like that would not fit his image of being the golden boy, right, that would all of a sudden be like a you know, it would just not fit what the image that he wanted to portray for himself. And I think he looked at killing her encounter as a way of getting his freedom and also having people feel sorry for him, like, you know, oh, it's so sad he lost his wife. Scott had had other long term affairs, and so I think he knew how to juggle to two different women. Yeah.

28:41 So I don't think there was a financial motive. No, there was a life insurance policy, but it had been there for years and it was a joint policy Lacey. This was we haven't talked about this yet, but Lacey's grandmother had recently died and she inherited like these huge diamonds. Oh really, I didn't know that. Yeah, they were valued over one hundred thousand dollars. Oh yeah, like you know, this was in two thousand and two. She had like diamond earrings that were I know, you don't really know carrots, but like two carrots each. That's a huge, huge and at least a couple like a diamond pendant, a diamond watch, and some stone like a diamond. I think her diamond ring which was also over two carrots at the time of Lacey's death, I believe it was Scott's Christmas present to her, kind of she was having some of the stones reset in her own wedding ring from her grandmother's. I read that, Yeah, Lazy had said that these pieces weren't really her style and they were kind of huge for a twenty seven year old woman to wear, and you know, she had had them priced, but she kept wearing them because she loved her grandmother and I think she like the sentiment of it. I believe the pieces, some of the pieces were found like she wore them all the time that some people thought that that was a target for her. She had gone on a walk that you know, she's wearing these big diamonds and someone could have you know,

30:11 taken her for that. But a bunch of a lot of the pieces were left at the house. But I think months later there was a diamond watch that was the same brand that was found at a pawn shop and it couldn't be eliminated that that was Lacey's watch. Okay, so that was that was kind of interesting. I don't believe they thought that had Lacey been abducted, that possibly the abductor had pawned her watch. Right, Well, let's talk about the trial. Oh, I just wanted to mention one more thing that's gotten Lacey. Really. I don't know if they had a good relationship or not, but their portrayal was that they were this picture perfect couple that were very happy, and even Lacey's mom was adamant. They never fought they had a really good relationship. Yeah, Lacey was really close to her mom and she had a lot of really close friends too. She never really complained about Scott, and that to me is a little strange, like either he was amazing and perfect or she internalized a lot of things, and so that's what I'm kind of trying to reconcile. I think maybe she also, you know, wanted to have the appearance of a perfect life. You know, maybe she was didn't want to share that kind of thing with people as well, because it would make it look like their life wasn't perfect. So she may have just been one of the personality treats too. Yeah yeah, but there were Like again, we talked about this in part one, I think, but in conflict with what you said about them never fighting. In Anne Bird's book, she did say that Scott's mom, Jackie, told her a

31:42 couple of times that Scott and Lacey were having problems in the month or two in the stropped my big mug in the month or two before Lacey's disappearance. So your big mug, Yeah, my big Stanley mug. Rich got a Stanley for his birthday. Yes, and I just knocked it over, but yeah, I like to steal it. Okay, Now we're going to move on to the trial. All right, So you know Scott hired Mark Garrigo says, we all know, right, big very famous attorney, well known. He was on TV all the time. Do you know why Mark Garraghos was hired? I think he was one of the only people on TV that was kind of defending Scott. Well yeah, yeah, yeah. He kept going like he kept saying, well, I think he could be innocent and the Peterson's kind of got a wind of that and they were like, well we should, yeah, we should hire him. And Mark Arragos was like, all right, give me a million bucks. Yeah, he was not cheap. He was not cheap. And the Peterson family pulled their money together.

32:40 And I do believe it was a family pool that paid for Mark Garragos except for his sister. Yeah, the one sister. It was in the one book by Catherine Crary. It almost seemed a little bit unnecessary. But she was talking about how his sister Sharon, I think is that that's her name, right, Sharon? I am not sure, but I know I can picture her. She's the one with the short hair in the documentary. Said something in the book about how she did not contribute to the fund, and in fact, she and her husband built a pool, which seemed a little unnecessarily petty. And that is my critique of Kathleen or Catherine Cryer. That's my critique of her book. It's really it's pretty biased. It's caddy.

33:22 I mean, I don't mind that it's biased as much as she inserts some anecdotes or some personal comments that just aren't necessary that tracked honestly from her argument. Yeah, yeah, it's a great example of one. So Mark Gerragos filed for a change of venue arguing that Scott was not going to be able to get a fair trial in modesto, and the motion was granted. The trial would be moved to Redwood City. The trial would have to be moved to Uranus for people not to have heard about it, Yeah, exactly before the preliminary hearing. Scott was reportedly unhappy with Gargos. He felt that he wasn't giving got the attention that he deserved after they paid a million dollars to him as a retainer fee, and Scott actually signed in agreement with another firm. But when Garret Goes found out about it, he went and confronted Scott face to face in jail and reportedly he told Scott that he would fry if he switched, and he guaranteed Scott a victory in order to get him to switch back to Garrett beause he happened. Sometimes with a high profile attorney, they're so busy, and yeah, they like to get their spotlight, but they don't necessarily put that work in that they need to put in.

34:32 Yeah, they just kind of think they have this force of personality. They're going to walk into the courtroom and everyone's going to be like wowed by them. But it can't be ethical for a lawyer to say, I guarantee you that I'm going to get you acquitted. That just does not seem ethical at all. If he actually said that jury selection began on March fourth of two thousand and four, it took three months just for jury selection. But on May twenty seven, and this wouldn't murd awe did. It took like a jury was seated in a week. And that was shocking to me that his jury was seated so fast. And like those cases, I mean, I know Scott Peterson, that case is a lot more, but still they were both pretty high profile. Yeah, So on May twenty seventh, a jury of twelve plus six alternates was sworn in. The trial began on June first.

35:23 In his opening statement, Geragos claimed that he would not only refute the state's case, but he would prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Scott Peterson was not guilty. He said there were witnesses who had seen Lacey walking her dog after the time that police say she was killed, and that they would have an expert testify that Lacey had carried counter to term. One juror was dismissed after thirteen days of the trial because he had been seen talking to Lacey's brother near the metal detector entering the courthouse, but also because he discussed media coverage of the case with his girlfriend. Other jurors say that he was discussing the case when he shouldn't have been, and he was seen almost daily giving a nod and a smile to the defense table as he walked by on the way to the jury box. The ousted juror spoke to the press, and he said that Scott was clearly innocent, his affair with Amber was a meaningless side thing, and implied that several jury members felt the same way that he did.

36:21 The prosecution's case was thin at best. He said. The defense focused on discrediting the investigation, especially Detective Brokini, saying that they were only focused on Scott they didn't consider any other possibility. Gergos attacked Brokini on the stand for not following up on three witness accounts that may have placed Lacey in the park on the morning of December twenty fourth. We had talked earlier about there are as many as two dozen sightings of Lacey on the morning of December twenty fourth, And that's something that I've always thought, and the documentary really Hammer's Home is like, oh, all these people saw Lacey. If there was one, even one valid sighting of Lacey, Mark Erragos would have had them on the stand. Yes, yes, So it makes you wonder, like, so these sightings there must have they knew that the state would be able to refute them. Yeah, yeah, Well, and the fact that it's really strange to me that Gergos in his opening statement said that he would bring people to testify that they saw Lacey, but then he never did. And I think that was one of the big problems that the jury saw is that he made this bold promise like yeah, and then he never followed through on it, And yeah, why didn't he follow through on it? Like there there must have been some flaws in their story or I think they just realized that they were not reliable enough and that the state was just going to tear them down, yeah and make him look bad. Otherwise he definitely would have

37:52 had them on the stand. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Amber Fry took the stand on day thirty four of the trial for six days of testimony. Her testimony didn't prove that Scott was a murderer, but hearing the recorded phone conversations really showed them that he was a liar. As we've talked about, jurors were particularly turned off by Scott attending the candlelight vigil for Lacey right before being on the phone with Amber and telling his stories about his European travels. The prosecution rested after nineteen weeks and one hundred and seventy five witnesses. Oh my gosh, so, as we've already talked about, despite promising to produce witnesses who saw Lacey walking her dog on the twenty fourth gearagoes failed to deliver.

38:36 None of those witnesses testified why. We don't know for sure, but it's definitely a problem for a defense attorney to make a claim like that upfront and then not follow through. Another key moment during the defense's witnesses testimony was the testimony of doctor Charles march So. March is a gynecologist who was set to testify that Connor died around December twenty ninth, five days after Lacy vanished. If this was the case. Then it would exonerate Scott completely. There would be no question about it if he could show that Connor died on December twenty ninth. On cross examination, however, his testimony fell apart. First, he admitted that estimating the age of a fetus at death is not an exact science. He said, quote to find a specific date is impossible.

39:23 It is, It is not. It is less than nonscience. It's a one hundred percent impossibility to narrow something down something you really don't want your expert witness to stay. Yeah, he's gonna say more things that you wouldn't want your expert witness to say. It turned out that his estimate of Lacey's conception date was based on a friend of hers saying when Lacey told her about the pregnancy, not on any actual medical records. At one point, the beleaguered defense expert asked the prosecutor questioning him to cut him some slack, like he was just I guess he was like just sweating and like slouching down in his chain and just was just broken under the testimony. And he also admitted at one point that he was a fertility expert, not an expert in forensic pathology or forensic anthropology, and he admitted that the prosecution experts were actually better for picking a date of death. So yeah, not, it didn't help at all. This argument that Connor's date of death was later than the twenty fourth was really the heart of the defense's case, and it was pretty much destroyed at this point, along with Geragos's credibility and not following up on the promises he made in his opening statement. After six days of testimony, the defense rested an example of the headlines that came out in the newspapers at that time, here was one that said quote defense called surprisingly weak. Trial watchers say attorney did not pursue key claims. After seventy four days of testimony, the case was now in the hands of the jury. After thirty two hours of

40:58 deliberations, the judge announced that he he was replacing jur number seven with an alternate because the juror had gone to the Internet to research the fishing website that Peterson had gone to, and that's a big no no, as we all know. That meant that deliberations would have to start over again and to get a fresh start. The jury elected a new four person because jur number five, who had been the four person, was seen by everybody else on the jury is very difficult to work with. There's a lot of like controversy in the jury. The original four person was an attorney and a doctor, and he didn't really play well with others, is what I heard. Yeah, he didn't and he kept to himself, and the other jurors were, you know, it's kind of you're together for months. Yeah, and he Yeah, he didn't get along with the other jurs but obviously he was an intelligent guy and he was leaning towards an innocent verdict. Oh I'm correct. I could be wrong. It could be. I did not read that, but I did read it. Was reading the book by the jurors. He was not one of the ones who authored the book, but they really did not like him at all. And one of the things that he did is he took a huge amount of notes. Like everybody else, like you take a note here, and you take a note there, but he wrote down everything.

42:13 I believe he filled nineteen notebooks. Yeah. Anytime they would go to discuss a piece of evidence and they would be like, well, what's your opinion, he'd be like, well, wait a minute, I have to go check my notes, and he'd have to go find his notes, and they came to the conclusion that they were like, you took a lot of notes, but you weren't listening, Like you were just writing stuff down, but you weren't really listening. So they were very frustrated with him. The next morning, he actually asked to be dismissed as well, and he told the judge that he had broken the rules by discussing the case with another juror outside of deliberations, but the other jurors felt like because he was no longer in charge, he wanted to actually derail the process and he wanted to cause a mistrial. But he was dismissed and deliberations began anew From here, the deliberations actually moved much more smoothly and rapidly. After an additional seven hours and fourteen minutes of deliberation, the jury announced it had reached a verdict guilty of murder in the first degree for Lacey's murder and guilty of murder in the second degree for baby Connor. In the book that I read, it was several of the jury members collaborated on this book. It was called we the jury in it. They talked about why they found Peterson guilty, and the bottom line is they said it wasn't one thing. There was no smoking gun, It was really everything. Some of the key factors that they mentioned. The timeline that gave Lacey only ten minutes to get ready, walk the dog and get it abducted just didn't seem possible. The tarp being contaminated with gasoline seemed

43:44 significant to them, especially from someone like Scott who was very meticulous about taking care of his things. The videotape showing his interview with Detective Brokini on the evening that Lacey was reported missing. When the call came in from Lacey's sister Amy, instead of asking if there was any news, he breezily answered the phone, Amy, what's going on. Also in the same tape, he tells Brokini the family is going to need grief counseling, which is pretty strange, like the you know, she's just vanished. Also, Scott buying the boat without apparently telling anyone or not telling many people, searching the internet for deep water currents, buying freshwater tackle for saltwater fishing, not opening the tackle, not being able to initially remember what he was fishing for, telling some people he'd been golfing that day. Regarding the testimony from Amber Fry, jurors said that him being an adulter did not make them think that he was a murderer, but hearing him lie so easily on the recorded phone calls with her definitely had an impact. His arrogance, the web of lies that he spun, and the fact that he showed no remorse and not a lot of emotion.

44:53 He had the motive, the ability, the desire, and the access. During the penalty phase of the trial, there were victim impact statements from Lacy's brother, her half sister, stepfather, and mother. On the other side, Scott's father, half sister Susan, Susan I said Sharon earlier, Okay, gotcha, it was Susan. His half brother John, and a number of other relatives spoke on Scott's behalf, with Scott's mom, Jackie closing it out, but in the end, the jury decided on the death penalty. In August of twenty twenty, Scott's death sentence was overturned by the California Supreme Court, but he was not granted a new trial. Scott's lawyers no longer what Mark Geragos argued that the jury had unfairly dismissed potential jurors that disagreed with the death penalty. They argued that jury, I'm sorry, Juror number seven, Rachelle Nice aka Strawberry Shortcake, committed misconduct when she lied on a pre trial questionnaire in an attempt to be chosen for the jury because she really hated Scott Peterson, and she'd had a history of domestic violence, and she really wanted to be on the jury. After the trial, she gleefully celebrated his conviction, and she and six others churers wrote a book that you may have heard of, called We the Jury. The judge ruled against the motion.

46:21 She said that Nice was not biased against Peterson, but instead her questionnaire responses were quote the result of a combination of good faith, misunderstanding of the questions and sloppiness in answering. Scott's attorneys claim that they still have they have new evidence that he is innocent, and they will present this at a new trial. There was also evidence that one of the sniffer dogs we already talked about this had failed their certification test multiple times, and in December of twenty twenty two, Scott was denied a new trial. But they have like a whole I mean, there's so many websites dedicated to the of evidence that you know, was either not good evidence or evidence that wasn't admitted into trial.

47:06 And there's been so many attempts at getting Scott a new trial. His sister in law, Janey is it. She has been relentless in trying to get a new trial for Scott. Yeah, there are a lot of people that feel very strongly about his innocence. I will say that I am not one of them, but there, Yeah, there's a lot of people that are fighting for him. Just this summer, even though it had been two years since his death sentence was revoked, he was finally taken off death row in Saint Quentin and moved to Mule Creek State Prison in Ione, California. Lacey and Connor were finally laid to rest on August thirtieth, two thousand and three, in Escalon, California, at Burwood Cemetery, with two hundred and fifty people in attendance. They were buried together in a single casket. On April first, two thousand and four, George Bush signed the un Born Victims of Violence Act, also known as Lazy and Connor's Law. Sharon and Ron were in attendance. The act makes it a federal offense if death or injury is caused to an unborn child during violence to a pregnant woman, the perpetrator will be charged with a separate offense. So there's that which is nice that it's named in their honor. Lazy and Connor's gravestone is engraved Lazy Denise Rocha and it says like our brown eyed girl under her name, and the other side has Connor's name and it says our precious baby Connor. The bottom of the

48:37 gravestone says, quote your smile, contagious laughter, loving heart and free spirit will forever be with us. We love you so much and hold you close within our hearts until we are together again. So sad. She was so young and she just wanted to be a mother so badly too, And it's heartbreaking. It's just so devastating when you only very part of your child, Like that's just that's so hard. But Sharon has been, you know, really strong, and a lot of respect for her and what she's been through and I hope she's found some peace. Yeah, I hope so too. So that that's pretty much the story. There's a few things that I didn't mention that I that I have some notes here. But one thing that is really bizarre is Amber sent out Christmas cards with a picture of her and Scott in them. Oh wow, yeah, like that for I mean that that year of two thousand and two. Yeah, that's well, I mean she thought this is her boyfriend. I guess she really was serious, she was ready commit. Yeah. Wow. You had mentioned earlier that Lacey had her wedding ring, that it was in the store to be reworked to include her grandmother's stones, and that that was Scott's Christmas gift to her, or at least part of his Christmas gift to her, And I thought I saw somewhere that there were no other gifts like under the tree for her from Scott.

50:07 Is that have you seen that? I read that too. There were definitely several presents under the tree, and one of them was a really big box. I thought that might have had her name on it. But he did say that there was a Louis Vuton wallet and it was in like the gift bag, and he said that was his gift to her, but the receipt might have had her signature on it, like she used her credit card for it and signed for it. To me, that's not that weird because I mean, it's December seventeenth. How's your Christmas shopping going? And what did I say to you when you got home from your trip, Like if you want me to buy my own Christmas presents, I will. And so sometimes that just kind of happens, you know where, Honey, I really want this Louis Vuton wallet, and a Louis Vuton wallet is not That's not a cheap gift. So it could have just been she was like, Scott, I just really want this wallet, and so I don't really, but yeah, it is a little suspicious. Yeah, maybe there was a robe underneath the tree. For we keep joking about a robe, but we haven't said why we're joking about a robe. Well, I posted it on our social media. A lot of people listen that don't go to our ol. Okay, there's just a really funny SNL skit that is about you know, Kristen Wigg is the mom and you know she's talking about her Everyone saw all this stuff, and she's like, I got a rope. It was funny because I forgot to like credit SNL and Facebook took it down. Oh really yeah,

51:37 but Instagram and they sent me like a message like, but I Instagram didn't, which is kind of strange. It's one of the funniest sketches of all time. It's pretty well, maybe it's funny to you. I cried when I saw it. So one of Scott's biggest defenses, in my opinion, is uh, leaving his wife on Christmas Eve to go fishing when she's got things to do. Yeah, typical, Yeah, yeah, I think you know Scott he did. He had a lot of masks because he was pretty good at putting them on. But you know, was he happy about the baby? You know, probably not. But a lot of first time dads. I'm not defending him, but a lot of first time dads might not be thrilled. Oh yeah, I'm sure a lot of people have anxiety or maybe don't feel quite as positive about it as you would think. Did Scott let the dog out? Like that's one thing, like Mackenzie did.

52:29 He just put Mackenzie in the backyard with a leasha on and be like, hey, Mackenzie, you know, go out into the road. And well, if he did it, I mean, yeah, he must have. Or maybe he took the dog into the truck and drove down the street and then just you know, pushed him out the door. Scott allegedly had as many as seven affairs during their marriage. Did you see that many? I didn't, but fair, I'm sure there was probably some one night stands in there. It wasn't necessarily a relationship. Yeah. Well, doing my research, I found myself wondering if it's possible that Scott has some sort of sexual dysfunction, like he needs to get an erection, He needs to it needs to be kind of dangerous. Yagra was found in his vehicle right right, and Lacey had a hard time getting pregnant. Was it because he could have had a problem? I have not, and that's why he needed to cheat so much? Yeah, it could be. I don't have an opinion one way or another on that, and I did not see anything in my research to tell me one way or another. But or could they have had an open marriage? I mean, there is no evidence that I can't believe that she just does that from everything I've seen about Lacey. She does not seem like the kind of person who would be okay with that. But you know else, she definitely knew about the first affair for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess we don't know. The Scott and Lacy Peterson case has so many parallels to the Shenan and Chris Watts case. I need to mention that if both men had no history of violence at all until they killed

54:02 their wives. Yeah, and that's kind of chilling to me. So I guess we're at the end. We're done, Thank goodness. I'm very excited, though it was a marathon that I can say goodbye to Scott Peters said, I'd like to never think about him again as I can, so, I don't think you need to tell anyone how you feel. You feel like he is I So I went into this, you know, I knew a little bit about it. We've watched a couple of shows, but I don't you remember that much. I went into it thinking he was probably guilty, but having some doubt and knowing that there were a lot of stories of other witnesses and things like that. At the end of it, after all the research and everything, I am more firmly convinced that he is guilty than ever before. And I think before I think I would have said if I was on the jury, I might have had reasonable doubt. Now I do not think I would have reasonable doubt. Okay, so you're like not one hundred percent, but you're pretty close to it much pretty close. Okay. I was probably seventy five percent guilty before and now I'm I'm pretty much around ninety ninety nine ninety eight percent. I just wanted to mention the things for me because I was definitely little on the fence before we started this. I wouldn't wanted to mention the factors to me that were really like, yeah, I can't explain this away. Connor's gestational age had kind of you know, they had changed it so to me, you know, at the trial they tried to say that he was much older or like the I think at the documentary

55:37 that we watched, which is what documentary is that? The one on the Yeah, I think it was called The Murder of Lacy Peterson. Yeah, I have. I had watched that actually more than once, and that is a it's a pretty misleading documentary, I would say, yeah, and that makes you think like, oh, he was alive for two weeks or three weeks, but no, it was a matter of days. And I just I don't think that that is reliable evidence. And lace that Lacey when she was found that she was wearing the tan pants and not the black pants that everyone thought she was wearing. But if she had been adut abducted, she wouldn't have had time to change. They weren't going to bring her home to get her a new set of clothes. Yeah, and you know, I don't think she went for that walk. I think that people just saw, you know, a different pregnant woman. And the timeline too, I think was really that that to me was a big factor in strengthening my view of his guilt, is that timeline is just so narrow that it just doesn't seem like it would have worked. Yeah. And again, you know that's something that I think people don't realize that how how tight that timeline really is.

56:40 The fact that Lacey's cervix was closed and I really don't think she gave birth to Connor. Her missing limbs seemed to confirm the theory that there were you know, the anchors were tied to her limbs. Yeah, yeah, and that pretty much got me to yeah, I definitely think he's guilty. We both came to the same conclusion. I was a little worry we were going to end up in a do when we started. I was definitely a little not pro sCOD because my theory is, even if he is an innocent, all the lies and deceit and horrible ways he treated women, he starts to be chailed. Right, I still can't say one hundred percent that I would have found him guilty, though I know that circumstantial evidence is evidence, but I wish that there were maybe just just a little bit of forensic evidence in there too. Yes, I wish there was too, I really do, but I still am It's hard. You know, we didn't sit through the trial of exactly how long was the trial of It's a long trial, a lot of evidence, a lot of people there. So for us to sit here and make judgments, all we can do is based on what we've read.

57:59 And the challenge is a lot of the sources of information are slanted one way or another, Like it seems like every book, every show has, you know, kind of one point of view that they're trying to to prove, which is fine, but it does kind of give you a slanted, you know, perspective on things. So I think it was good that we Yeah, it was good that we did. We went to multiple sources, we watched multiple documentaries, we watched we read multiple books that had different slants. So we tried to keep as open mind as possible. We definitely did, and I hope that showed through. And I hope our listeners enjoyed this and aren't really I hope they're still with us. I totally understand if you needed to skip this episode. Yes, well, what are we going to do now that we're done with Scott Peterson? I think, well, thank you for all those nice Christmas gifts. That was so lovely. I can't leave you got me all those diamonds. Spoiler alert. Yes, you still have some shopping to do. You've been really busy, and I trust me, I'm not. I am not giving you a hard time. I know you've been really busy. I have done a fair amount of shopping, but I do need to get out there a little bit. It's okay, trust it's okay. Being married to you is gift enough? Oh that's I can I can totally understand. Yes, it is. Every day is a gift.

59:25 Yes, every minute, every day is like Christmas? It sure is. What are we going to do on your time off? I think we already talked about it. I'm going to do a jigsaw puzzle. I'm going to read at least two books. I think jigsaw puzzle, Jigsaw puzzle, jigsaw. Like is that every puzzle called a jigsaw puzzle or every puzzle? I'm dumb because we're always a little dumb. But I'm a little a little tired. It's a marathon because we started in daylight. Yes, it is now pitch black out. It is a black But I was going to say, I think we need to out a few movies to watch, like I feel like we haven't. I don't know, We've been working pretty hard.

1:00:05 Yeah, we haven't really taken time to watch any good movies lately. So okay, let's do it well. If anyone has any recommendations, and to your listener, let us know what you thought about us collaborating on these last three episodes, if you enjoyed that, or if you would rather have the way we usually do it, where you know, Rich tells me a story or I tell him a story. I thought we worked honestly, if I'm being totally honest, you can be totally honest. Okay, we're all friends here. That went better than I thought it would because we hadn't. We had a rough outline of who was going to take care of it, but I thought we we'd not go through it in detail. No, it was long, but I think I think it went pretty well, went well.

1:00:45 We covered it pretty well. Yeah. And oh, if you're listening to this on January first, by the way, go blue, Michigan is going to be playing Alabama. You see, you haven't talked about football college football playoffs. That is a big deal. It's a huge, huge deal. Yeah, very exciting. I always say this, but I always want you to just live in the glory of you had a perfect season. You're you know, I'm happy no matter how it ends. I'm happy, but even happier if they win a national championship. All right, you know. Always good to talk about football, and I never get to talk about the You talk about the housewives, not like in that way, like, oh, I hope, I don't know. Do you want to reserve a segment on future shows to have your house I really don't. I never watched them live.

1:01:32 You know, I'm just kind of you know, yeah, somewhat of a recent obsession. Really, I see well. Happy New Year, friends, Happy New Year. Twenty twenty four is a year ful filled with health and new adventures and happiness and happiness and thank you all. And we say it a lot, but we can never say it enough. We are so grateful for all of you taking the time to listen to us and to give us feedback and send us your comments. We just really appreciate it, We sure do. You guys are amazing and generous and we really Yeah, like you said, you said it, you said it wonderfully. So I'm not going to elaborate. Follow us on social media, Love Mary Kill on Instagram and Facebook. You can send us an email at Lovemrykill at gmail dot com.

1:02:23 Consider supporting us on Patreon, Patreon dot com, slash love Marykill five dollars a month, one tier early episodes, no ads, and one bonus episode a month. Do you think people are listening to us at the gym? Yes? There, get it girl, get it, guy, do it. This is your year, don't let go again. Is your year mental health and clarity and good health. Keep up the workout. You should be a motivational speaker. I am. I'm never good at I don't want to bet you very much to I. This is your year. Rich Alright, I'm gonna do it until next time, taking no until next time.

1:03:12 Don't kill your husband. Don't kill your wife.