Laura and Craig Rideout

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. There's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage. It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife, and. Some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hi Rich, Hi Tina. How are you? I am doing good? How are you? I am doing well too. During our opening, I forgot how long we've been together. Yeah you did, I did. I said thirty years instead of twenty years. So yeah, we're not there yet, although it does feel like we've been together forever one hundred years. Do you remember life before me?

0:49 No? I really well, I do. I do. I'm sure you remember life. Before so wistful when you said that, it's so happy. Too, remember it every every day, every day one. It's okay, you don't have to stay married. I'm pretty happy. I'm very happy. Pretty happy? All right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, same, same. Glad we got that cleared up and out of the way. Well, it's still February and we're still in winter, and it's still dark and the weather's kind of gloomy. Do you have anything you need to complain about? Taxes? That's about was working on our taxes? Yeah, I hate taxes. Okay, it's just so it's not that I hate paying our taxes. It's just so complicated. It really is very way too complicated.

1:34 And it's not like we have tons of money, and it's like not that it should not be that hard to do our taxes. It doesn't some nice person. But even when you have someone do them for you, you still have to like, you know, answer. You send me a bunch of stuff I need X, Y and Z, you know. Like I know, I know, I just I hate it. All. Okay, So that's how our taxes looking, by the way, not good. Oh really. Not great. Sorry to spring that news on you, you at our in a live recording session. But yeah, okay, so we're going to be a little money really all right, Well that's awesome to hear. But I was sad. It was in a good ruin and now I'm sad. Well I was going to complain about the cable company. I know we're dinosaurs because we still have Yeah, we should keep the we should cut the cord.

2:22 I guess we have a lot of street We have a lot because a lot for the podcast, we need to do a lot of research. They got to find a line it's on peacock. I gotta find a forensic files it's on something else. Right. So we have a lot of streaming services, but we still have our old fashioned cable too, and you have to call them like once a year, like every six months to twelve months. And if you call them and like, yeah, I'm going to cancel my cable, then they give you some good deal and it infuriates me. I think, in general, I'm a really nice person, but when I get on the phone with these people, I am not nice. I rarely see you as angry as when you get off the phone with the cable people. And by the way, thank you for taking one for the team. No, I didn't.

3:03 Remember because I was so I'm embarrassed. I was so angry with this person that I said, I'm sorry, i can't continue this call. And I guess I'm going to have my husband call because you're not making any sense to me. Anyway. I'd been transferred twice and I was on the phone for over twenty minutes, and I said, how much longer is this going to take? And he said, oh, at least another twenty minutes, because I need to find you the best deals. And I was like, I literally cannot. Yeah, so I don't know. I do. That's my rant. It's a big racket, like the way they do that. Just give us the price that you. Can give me the best deal. That's it. And I wish that I could just do it online and not have to call. And the guy on the phone was like super salesy and like perky. Even though he was yelling at him, he was still giving me his salesy voice, and I was like, buddy, we're not friends.

3:55 So please, Well you did your best. Well, I do have a snack today for you. Okay, are you ready? Our friends Doug and Amy from Maryland sent us a box of snacks excellent. They are uts chips and oh my gosh, one of them is the crab chip, one of them is the classic cattle chip and the original chip. And she also sends a container of Old Bay seasoning, which is so funny because I just ran out of it a couple of weeks ago and have not bought new Old Bay seasoning. So you know, some of our listeners send us Christmas cards. What is your favorite Christmas card that you've seen?

4:36 The one with the guy with the underwear. That's Doug Doug Namy. So, yeah, this is a nice package from them. But they have a really cute tradition where Doug takes he takes pictures in his speedo as they travel throughout the world. It's amazing. It's a really great fun tradition. Well, let's try these uts chips. We do have uts chips by us. Actually maybe I see them once in a while. It's pretty rare ied to eet them when I would go to Boston. And I really love the kettle chips, really really good. All right, well let's give them a try. What did you think of the uts snacks?

5:17 They were awesome and the kettle chips I love, They're my favorite. The original ones are also really good. Crab ones little I. Like the ones. They are really good. Yeah, but they were. That's so nice of them. We have we have a lot of listeners snacks kind of backed up, right, we do. And if you sent us a snack, please be patient with us. We're sorry that it's taken us a little time to get through them. Means so much to us that you want to share a little piece of your hometown or your state or your lives with us. It's you just so messy. Thank you so much, Doug and Amy. Today I'm going to tell you the story of Laura and Craig right out. We try to do as many listener requested cases as we can, but I found this one.

5:58 I don't do this very often anymore, but I was watching a dateline for a different case and as it finished, I was wrapped up into the next one that started automatically, and it was the story of and Craig. Yeah, it's a very interesting story. In the early morning hours in the Finger Lakes region of New York on July twenty first, twenty sixteen, as the moon still lit the sky and the humid air lingered, a Mennonite farmer started his pre dawn chores, his straw hat perched atop his head, not out of necessity, but out of habit. He saw the lights before he heard the crunch of tires On the quiet road before his farm. Two vehicles, a sedan and a mini van, stopped and idled along the roadside. He squinted through the pre dawn mist as two dark clad silhouettes emerged from the vehicles. They appeared to be partnered carrying something heavy and cumbersome, but the farmer couldn't track their movements as they disappeared into the inky woods. He didn't call out or make himself known, But after he'd eaten breakfast and the sun had fully risen, the farmer's curiosity got the best of him. He walked to the road to survey the spot where he'd seen the shadowy figures earlier. He followed the trample tangle of weeds about fifty feet off the road, where he discovered a fresh looking brown tarp cinched tight with bungee cords around a trunk like shape talked among the brambles and scrub A shovel lay near by among disturbed dirt where someone had

7:30 half heartedly started to dig a shallow hole, but abandoned the project when the ground proved too hard to move and fled the scene. The farmer peeled back a corner of the heavy tarp, exposing a single bare foot. He jumped back in surprise. The realization hid him that the figures that he'd seen earlier hadn't been dumping trash on the woods, but a body. He went inside to call the police, who rushed to the scene. As investigators began, the grim tatsk of unwrapping the parcel. The smell hit them first, not the scent of decay, but the sharp, acrid sting of industrial chemicals. A caustic substance had been poured on the man, obscuring his facial features and fingerprints to make identification more difficult. His face was raw and red, the skin bubbling up where the chemicals had angrily burned through his features. The chemical had also destroyed his fingers and hands. He had been savagely beaten, his body covered in bruises. He had also suffered a skull fracture. The poor man had been subjected to a level of violence that felt deeply personal. A phone shrilled, cutting through the air and breaking the somber silence. They looked at each other, checking their own pockets to determine where the sound came from, until they realized their ringing was coming from inside the tarp.

8:52 It was a chilling reminder that although someone had tried to erase this man from existence, he still mattered to others, and they were already starting to look for him. Just hours after his brutal death, there was an emergency contact in the phone Robin Drew. The police didn't know who she was yet, but later that afternoon, Robin would contact them to report her brother Craig right out missing. Well, first of all, there's a very vivid picture that you just painted of the scene. I can't imagine making that kind of a discovery. But who you know, they went through this, whoever killed this person went through this effort of concealing their identity by using acid on their face and hands. But they left their cell phone in their pocket.

9:35 Mm hmmm. We'll get to it later, but there is a reason why they thought that he didn't have a cell phone in his pocket. But it is. Overkill and it's so sad that they did this to this man's face because, I mean, you're going to be able to identify the body through dental records, So you know, the thought that they thought they were so smart, Yeah, you know, pouring it on his face and obscuring his fingerprints. Well, that seems like they had plans to bury the body, so they were hoping it wouldn't be found at all, but that didn't work out. It seems it's. A lot harder to bury a whole than you think it isn't it. Every time, you know, we'd do any yard work and you have to dig a hole. It's like, yeah, it's hard work. It really is.

10:15 Yeah. Craig Wallace write Out was born to Agnes NeSSI and Richard Dick on April twenty fourth, nineteen sixty six, in Pittsford, New York, outside of Rochester. Craig's only sibling, Robin, was born eighteen months before. NeSSI worked as a travel agent, while Dick spent his career working for Kodak Eastman. They were a warm, loving, deeply religious family. Robin later said her brother was a quote wonderfully funny individual with an astute sense of humor. He liked reading, he liked music, he loved his family. She said he had a wicked sense of humor that was not mean or naughty, but a little mischievous or mischievous the US. Craig attended Union College in Schenectady, about four hours from home, majoring in economics.

11:08 While there, he joined an alcohol free fraternity. His senior thesis was titled the distortionary effects of continual real government budget deficits. That's a good one. I read that. I'm so glad that I did not have to do a senior thesis. In nineteen eighty eight. Soon after graduation, Craig met his future wife, Laura Assam at a pub. Five years Craig's junior, she was just starting college in Buffalo. Robin said, quote, they were so enamored of each other, you could just see the twinkle in their eyes. Laura and Craig married in January nineteen ninety three. She was twenty two and he was twenty seven. Their first son, Colin, was born in October of that year. Six more children followed, Andrew, Alexander, Elizabeth, Julia, Patrick, and Maddel. Craig worked as an IT specialist and computer programmer for a financial services group while Laura stayed home with her brood. The Writeouts bought a nice four bedroom home on six acres in Pittsford, New York, where there was always room for one more friend or family member around the dinner table. Craig's best friend, Paul PJ. Tucci, and his wife Jennifer, along with their four children, loved spending time together. PJ was godfather to Colin, the oldest write Out child. Money was tight for the large family, and Laura didn't like sticking to Craig's budget. She always thought he was exaggerating their financial situation, but when they

12:39 faced bankruptcy, they were forced to relocate to a smaller home. The once happy home was now filled with resentment and acrimony. I can't imagine the financial strain of raising a family with seven. Kid, Kevin kids. Yeah, just with our two kids, there were so many expenses, and you know, just dance and sport and all the shoes and the things, and having seven kids that would be really hard. And I think Craig made a decent living, but that's a lot of mouths to feed. The rite of family was fracturing from the inside out as Laura's deepening bitterness took seed, extending to her in laws. Holiday gatherings became a battlefield where Laura's calculated absences forced the children to choose a side. Robin, Craig's sister, remembered the sting of the new family dynamic quote.

13:30 We would say, are you guys coming, Oh, yeah, we'll all be there, and ultimately maybe four of them would come and they'd say, oh, Mom's not feeling well, and then one of the other kids would say, that's not true. Mom didn't want to come. During their growing troubles, Craig retreated to the world of online gaming, while Laura found solace in the arms of PJ. Tucci, Craig's best friend. Pj's wife, Jennifer, died in August twenty fourteen. Within a month of Jennifer's death, Laura and some of her children moved into Pj's house. Oh Craig also moved out of the rite out's family home and rented a townhouse nearby in Penfield. He was heartbroken over the breakup of his marriage, but sent PJ an email telling him that if he found happiness with Laura, he was happy for them. Colin went away to maritime college. He dreamed of becoming a Navy seal, Andrew, the second oldest, joined the Marines. In November twenty fourteen. After twenty one years of marriage, Laura filed for divorce.

14:33 That is pretty amazing that Craig sent an email to his former best friend wishing him luck with his wife. That's a bigger man than I would Tea. I believe. I don't think you would be able to be that forgiving. I don't think so, but I always think about you. Know. I was a huge Beatles fan and George Harrison was married and his wife had an affair with Eric Clapton and who was a good friend of George's, and they remain friends, which it just still it blows my mind that you could remain friends with something. But I guess, you know, it takes a certain level of maturity just to move on. Well, because you sent that email doesn't necessarily mean that's how he felt. Maybe he felt like that's what he needed to do. I think the friendship was pretty much over by that point.

15:15 Yeah, I would imagine almost two years later, the divorce was still dragging on and they hadn't even reached a custody agreement. Laura and PJ were ready for a fresh start together with their younger kids. They set their sights on North Carolina. They started packing and even signed a lease on a new place, but Craig needed to sign off on custody of the two youngest children, six and twelve. They lived with him, and he refused to give them up. A contentious battle ensued. The children even got involved. Colin, who had been away at college for two years, quit school and moved in with Laura and PJ to watch over his siblings and mother, who he deemed were in danger from Craig leaned heavily on Colin, who often took care of the younger kids, making sure they got to school or appointments on time. Text messages between Laura and Colin from January twenty sixteen revealed a disturbing plan that involved the two eldest Ride Out girls, Elizabeth and Julia.

16:19 The girls were tasked with provoking Craig into losing his temper while recording him after triggering an outburst and calling the police. They planned to claim that he was abusive and violent. By making it clear they felt unsafe, they hoped to involve the court and force a change in the custody arrangement. Colin wrote in a text message quote tell them you're afraid your dad is going to kill your younger siblings when he gets home, and in another message quote, don't hesitate to call nine one one if he's ever screaming, because that would play well in court. The correct verbiage to get their attention would be he's trying to break down the door and I'm afraid he's going to kill my sister. Wow. This is a very specific instructions.

17:05 Very manipulative. Oh yeah, Elizabeth barricaded herself and two of her younger siblings in a room and tried to get a reaction from their father. The problem with the plan was that Craig was a pretty calm guy. It fell through when the children couldn't rattle him enough to justify calling the police. So all the kids have basically turned against their dad in this. It sounds like or most of them. The older ones, for sure. Yeah, that's really sad. On July thirteenth, a week before his death, Craig awoke to a sharp pain in his arm, as if a hare was being plucked out. He went back to sleep, but the next morning his house, keys and BlackBerry had disappeared. He was sure one of his sons was involved, but still called the police to report the theft because it was his work phone. Colin denied any involvement.

17:58 Remember back in the introduction when that was Craig the phone rang, So his phone was his BlackBerry was stolen and in all likelihood that was Colin that stole his phone. Okay, Craig's sister went and bought him. It wasn't like like an iPhone or anything like that. I think it was just a burner phone. But no one knew that he had this burner and his sister Robin had put her name in the phone as an emergency contact, but no one else had this the number to this burner phone. It's okay, interesting. I wanted to do this when you were sleeping this week, to try to pull that hair out of your arm to see if it will you up. And I don't know why he needed the hair. If they were going to plant it somewhere is evidence. Yeah, it's a very strange thing to do.

18:50 That is very strange. The tension between Craig and Colin reached a fever pitch, with Colin squarely placing the blame for their family coming apart at the seams on his father. Their mutual frustration culminated in a series of angry emails. Colin wrote, you are a chronic liar and I'm sick of you dragging my mother through this contorted divorce while you abuse the court system to try and retain control over her life. If you had any decency, you'd end this divorce as soon as possible. Let my mother and especially Luke and Julia leave. Notice that every child who is old enough to choose has fled Craig tried to strike a calmer tone. I enjoy talking with you and am generally proud of you as my son. I would like to think that you and I can have a relationship without all of the bullshit and drama associated with your mother. He encouraged Colin to call him so that they could talk things through, but Colin was on the offensive and wouldn't back down, insisting his father give up custody of the younger kids so they could move to North Carolina with their mother. Quote this, this is ridiculous.

20:01 I am tired of your duplicity, your constant lying, and your disgusting attempts to keep my mother and siblings under your thumb. While you're maybe quote generally proud of me as your son, I am not at all proud of you as my father. The things you do, especially your actions during this divorce, are despicable. Colin started copying the whole family on his emails, while Alex took the fight to Facebook, both of them working to turn the world against their father. It was a public smear campaign that left Craig blindsided and confused, struggling to understand why his own sons were painting him as the villain. This makes me so sad as a father to read about this.

20:43 I just you know, divorce is just a tough thing, but when your children end up getting pitted against one parent, it's just so it's really hardreat. It's telling too that Colin is putting all this in emails and text messages and was putting it on Facebook instead of having conversations in person. They were obviously setting him up. Yeah, four days after that last email, Craig Rideout was dead. We should mention that Craig's friends and family call him a devoted father who loved his children, a man of great warmth and humor, who was generous with his time, volunteering with youth ministries and mentoring young people. There's no evidence that he was verbally or physically abusive. Laura's primary weapon before the murder was the legal system. She filed multiple reports with Child Protective Services, painting Craig as a dangerous and abusive father, but when investigators looked into it, they found nothing to back her up. Those unsubstantiated claims were the final straw when the court failed to give Laura the win that she was looking for. Laura decided on a deadly plan with a least signed on a new apartment and the moving truck act, she became desperate.

22:02 Would you sign away custody rights to your kids? No, of course, of course not. I'm sure there are some people, both men and women, more traditionally men, who just sort of want to move on with their life. I'm sure there are some people who would do that, but you know, most people would certainly not. Just surprising that they would pack up this moving truck and sign a new lease before they had Craig's permission. Yeah, I think a new school year was about to start and that was one of the motivating factors. Whether they felt like, oh, we need to get this done. I'm not sure how I know that PJ had four children too. I'm not sure what their ages were, if they were, you know, similar ages. I think some of them were older, and maybe he still had a couple that were school aged two.

22:47 Right. Maybe they just assumed that things have been dragging on for so long that they were going to get wrapped up pretty quickly. But still seems pretty presumptuous to make a move like that and have it all planned out when things are still up in the we'll be back after a break. During the contentious custody battle, Craig's sister was his rock and confident. They spoke every day. On the morning of July twentieth, when Robin couldn't get a hold of Preig, she became nervous. It wasn't like him to ignore her calls, texts, or emails. When she called the office where he worked, they told her he did not come in that day, but he'd sent an email the previous evening that said, my daughter remains ill. I may not be able to answer the phone, as I will be taking her to the doctor's office. What do you think of this message?

23:43 This seemed like a very strange email. If I was calling in because my daughter was ill, I don't think I would point out the fact that I may not be able to answer the phone as I'll be taking her to the doctor's office. Sound it sounds suspicious? It sure does. The last time they'd spoken and Craig had it mentioned Madeleine was sick. She continued to call Craig's cellphone all morning, but never reached him. By noon, when she still hadn't touched base with him, she drove over to his townhouse. She was shocked to find her sister in law there. Laura tried to be friendly and breezy, but something felled off. To Robin, Laura said, I figured it was only a matter of time before someone came looking for him. I have no idea where he is. Robin knew the relationship between Craig and Laura was nowhere near the point where Laura would have a key or be welcome to just drop in and make herself at home, and she didn't answer how she'd entered the house. Laura said that the kids had called her that morning worried because Craig wasn't home.

24:44 Colin drove over, picked them up, and dropped them off at school. Laura explained to Robin that she'd stopped by after she'd grown concerned about Craig. She let herself in and began tidying up while she was there because there was an odd odor in the kitchen. But Robin knew better. Craig kept an impeccably clean house, and Laura was not known for her cleanliness. A strong chemical smell lingered in the air, and Robin thought Laura was acting strange. She'd left the vacuum in the middle of the room. Laura made her excuses and left with a full trash bag of unknown contents in her hand and a folded and unused black trash bag under her arm. Scanning the town house, Robin realized all of Craig's shoes were still there. He only owned three pairs, which made it strange that his minivan was gone. She also found it suspicious that his bedroom door was locked. As soon as Laura left, Robin didn't hesitate and called the police. I know what you're thinking here. Why did Craig need three pairs of shoes when.

25:48 That's an awful lot of pair of shoes there? DEV just kidding, but rich usually, I mean you have more than three pairs of shoes? Yeah, I only wear one or two. Here's a clip of Robin talking to the police. What brother he had not been ansering peck or the phone call or email, and I could be making a mountain out of them ogle. And here's another clip of Robin talking to the police officers along with two of Craig's children. Obviously you're a little bit concerned about them. I guess I knew where to where to think. Was he there when you woke up the last time you show your dad was when honey, yesterday jus games on the computer.

26:31 She and went to the background, and then he went downstairs. That night he was downstairs. And when he disappeared in. The morning, what was the last time you saw him? Call me? Were up? Then very last night when he was going to bunt? And then what happened this morning? Was it? So I was just gissing you went to work. So whatever happened to Craig happened with these two children in the house. Oh yeah. When police rid at Craig's townhouse, everything looked neat and orderly, but the house felt almost too clean. The sharp, clinical scent of leech hung heavy in the air, a sterile contrast to the violence that had just taken place there hours earlier. But when the police went to the basement, what they found was alarming. Two trash bags filled with bloody clothing, bloody cleaning rags, and even a garrot, the likely murder weapon. Can you explain what a garat is quickly?

27:25 Yeah? I think it's like a piece of rope or twine tied between like usually two wooden pieces, so you can wrap it around someone's and that can twist twist the wood to choke someone. Well, this was more homemade. It was made with a nylon cord and duct tape. Okay. At first glance, investigators missed it, but the shelving unit and the storage containers were spotted with blood spatter. A disinfected white container had bloody fingerprints on it that were later confirmed to be Laura's. Sitting nearby was a bottle of diet coke with another one of her prints on it, a casual, everyday item that would soon link her directly to a recent trip to Walmart. In the darkened basement, with the lights extinguished, investigators sprayed luminol across the floors, walls, and the storage containers. Despite Laura's best efforts to scrub away the evidence, the room began to glow with an eerie neon blue light. It didn't just reveal the blood they'd miss cleaning, It revealed the very path of the clean up. Because bleach and blood both react to the spray, the luminol created a glowing map of every swipe of a cloth and every stroke of a mop, The tiny specks of blood on the shelving and storage bins, which looked like nothing in the daylight suddenly announced themselves in the dark. It was a visual confirmation that, no matter how much bleach had been used, the basement was still holding out of the secrets of what had happened to Craig.

28:53 Investigators pieced together the timeline of Craig's murder during the early morning hours of July twentieth, twenty sixteen. They believed four people Laura, her boyfriend PJ, and her sons Colin and Alex, arrived sometime after midnight. Then somehow they lured Craig into the basement and hit him in the face with a hammer or possibly an iron, fracturing his cheekbone. A homemade garrot fashioned from duct tape and nylon rope was wrapped around his neck tightly to strangle him. The garrot was so effective it ruptured Craig's carotid artery, causing the substantial blood spatter throughout the room and onto the murderer's clothing.

29:33 Oh boy, that's horrible. The murderers weren't expecting such a bloody crime scene. They hastily cleaned up all the blood and wrapped crag and the tarp. It would have been a group effort to get Craig at six feet tall and over two hundred pounds upstairs and into the back of his van. I was wondering why if the murder weapon was a grot, there was so much blood at the scene. That's really horrible to imagine that. Yeah, it's chilling to think about how much pressure must have been applied to that. Yeah. Investigators rounded up footage from six different traffic cameras that showed Craig's minivan and Pj's car, or cars matching their descriptions, traveling together for fifty miles from Craig's townhouse to a rural farming area near Jerusalem, New York and Yates County.

30:18 A search warrant was also executed on pj's house, and McKee fob to Craig's minivan was found in his bedroom. Also, when they were executing the search warrant at Pj's house, his nineteen year old son had pornographic images on his computer and he was arrested underage. Of children disturbing in the. Stillness of the night. At three fifteen am on July twentieth, a silent, ghostly ping from the cell phone and Craig right out's pocket tracked his final departure from his home. Investigators believe he had been killed sometime between twelve thirty and three am, and remember his BlackBerry had been stolen and his sister had bought him this track phone. Ninety minutes later, the farmer spot of the two vehicles on the road in front of his farm. After sunrise, he found Craig's body wrapped in the tarp, abandoned in the woods.

31:14 As the police were examining the body, a cell phone began ringing from inside his pocket. Hours later, Robin Drew, Craig's sister would report him missing. It would take a few more days for dental records to confirm what the investigators already suspected. The man in the brown tarp was Craig ride Out. On July twenty sixth, twenty sixteen, nearly a week after his murder, Craig's missing gray twenty ten Honda Odyssey minivan was found at Bushnell's Basin parkin ride Lot in the town of Parrenton, New York, about ten minutes from Craig's home. The farmer identified the minivan as the same one that he'd seen in front of his farm.

31:54 Do we know what their purpose was in leaving his fan at this parking ride. Trying to make it look like he would he split town. Okay, I've had enough of this custardy stuff. I'm just we could have abandoned my two young children and I'm going to leave. Yeah, that would make perfect sense, right. The medical examiner ruled the cause of death to be asphyxiation by a ligature furrow completely encircling the neck and a fracture of the hyoid bone, along with blunt force trauma to the head and a fractured cheekbone. Craig also had cuts to his face, forehead, and back. The manner of death was homicide. A lot of those wounds were defensive wounds. It looked like Craig really did fight back.

32:37 Yeah. The day after Craig's murder, Colin twenty two and Alex Ride Out eighteen were spotted by a local resident dumping bags of trash in Monroe County at Mendon Ponds Park, near the geographical feature known as the Devil's Bathtub. A woman called nine to one one when she saw what she described as suspicious men wearing surgical gloves. When police arrived, one bag containing bottles of drain cleaner was still floating on top of the pond. The two young men were preparing to dump additional bags. Police stopped and questioned them. The officer got out his phone and recorded the conversation.

33:19 They told the police that their mom asked them to dump the trash. They didn't know what was in the bags. By then, unbeknownst to Colin and Alex, Craig's body had been recovered, although he remained unidentified. Alex nervously told police that he never got in trouble and was going away to college the next year. When asked where their father was, Colin said, I've been kind of worried about him. Alex added, I figured he was on the next flight to Mexico. Here's a clip. So what's going on? Is your brother off for a walk the basic pru That's I mean, we were just like out and then suddenly people show up and it's like, well, that's I've never really encountered police before, So it was like.

34:07 In trouble before. Right, No, I don't really do drugs or drink or the party. I've only I'm nineteen, I'm doing college. Next to you. Have you heard the dough a lot. Well, I emailed him last night, I didn't hear from him. I heard from him Monday, and he picked up my brother and sister. I think tuesday. I've been kind of worried about him. Her like stuff's just been freaking me out because he'd always you know, he'd always threaten you know, Oh, I'd just weird. But I figured he was on the next flight to Mexico. So it's just it's. Something my mom told me, like, Hey, you not to her mom till you'll be better. It was this morning. Did she give you the bag? Yeah, I'm worried about.

34:48 What you're I'm married, and I to you tell me what's your neighborry before she's in there. Bery it'll be better for you, you know. I don't know what's what's in the bag. Colin then admitted, well, there was a lot out of blood in the basement. I was worried that something had happened which placed him at the scene of the crime. Because they were not read their miranda rights, this conversation could not later be played in court. Colin and Alex were arrested for tampering with evidence, as was their mother, Laura. Forty five later that day, All three posted twenty five thousand dollars bail. No one was charged with murder, but the arrests of Laura, Colin, and Alex sent shockwaves through the community. To their friends, the idea that these two quiet, helpful young men participated in a gruesome murder felt like a tragic misunderstanding. Their friends launched to go fundme campaign to fund their legal defense, determined to save them from what they believed was an unjust prosecution. It was a testament to how effectively the brothers and the family as a whole had maintained a facade of normalcy even as their home life was spiraling into a very dark place.

36:02 A former classmate told The Democrat and Chronicle quote, I totally think they're innocent. I don't think they had anything to do with the death at all. Another classmate described them as crazy, smart, and huge nerds who liked to play board games. Alex had been forced to put his college plans on hold because neither he nor his parents could afford it. The contents of the bags were disturbing, several pairs of bloody clothing and gloves. Later, the clothing was identified to be from Laura. Alex and Colin, but DNA from PJ was also on some of the items. The clothing from Colin and Laura was especially bloody.

36:44 Colin and Alex and Laura are not the best criminals. They're taking these bags of incriminating evidence, full of their DNA, and they're throwing it into this Devil's bathtub in broad daylight. The Devil's Bathtub is a deep bowl shaped glacier kettle hole set within a steep sided basin in Mendon Ponds Park. It's about fifty feet deep and one hundred and fifty feet wide. Its dark, teacolored waters are shielded by high ridges and thick forest, creating a stagnant, oxygen poor environment where the water layers never mix. This secluded, murky pond became a focal point of the investigation after Colin and Alex were seen tossing a bag into its depths. Police divers later plunged into the sediment filled basin to recover incriminating bottles of liquid, lightning drain opener, and acid used to disfigure Craig's body. Colin and Alex likely chose the Devil's Bathtub for its reputation as a bottomless pit. However, the lack of oxygen and current meant that when divers went in, they didn't find a scattered mess of debris.

37:55 They found the incriminating evidence exactly where it had been tossed, relatively well preserved and ready for the lab. There are other pools of water called Devil's bathtubs, but this one is definitely an outlier. It's the only one that is a stagnant, dead pond rather than a flowing stream or waterfall. The dateline episode on this case is called the Devil's Bathroom. Uh. I just thought this was really interesting, this geological formation. Yeah, I mean it seems like it would be actually not a bad place to height evidence if they did it at night when there weren't any people around. Maybe, but it is kind of a stagnant pond and they're throwing empty bottles away. Yeah, don't you think empty bottles would float?

38:37 For sure? Monroe County Sheriff Patrick O'Flynn called Craig's murder the most heinous crime he had dealt with in his thirty year career. Quote, it's so sad because the suspects, you see them, there was zero emotion, that just says something about the evil in this case. As the investigation continued, law enforcement discovered three separate trips to Walmart by the ride Out family to purchase supplies for Craig's murder. Colin was captured in Masaden, New York, on Walmart's surveillance camera, paying cash for two bottles of drain cleaner on July eighteenth, two days before his father's murder. Laura and one of her daughters accompanied him. On July twentieth, around ten pm, Laura and PJ were captured on surveillance cameras at the Rochester Walmart, just hours before Craig was likely murdered. A twenty four foot brown tarp bungee cords, three additional bottles of drain cleaner, one bottle of diet coke, and a can of bug spray was purchased.

39:42 The surveillance footage at Walmart has gotten really good. Yeah, the images, and this was in twenty sixteen, so this was ten years ago, but still they're very clear. Really yeah, never forget you are on camera. I'm not sure how long Walmart keeps their videos for. We've had a lot of cases where something has gone down at a Walmart but in the video they're looking at the drain cleaner. I think in Pj's like points to his face and he looks upset. Maybe he's like, oh, I don't think this needs to be done. And Laura is talking to him and then she pats him on the back reassuringly. Oh boy. Yeah. They walk away, and later that night, just after midnight, Colin entered the Massaden walmart again to purchase a shovel and four pairs of work gloves. A four door sedan dropped him off at the entrance. There appeared to be three other people in the car, believed to be Laura, Alex and PJ. Colin was wearing jeans and a dark colored long sleeved T shirt. They appeared to be the same items of clothing that were later found in the trash bag covered with blood. PJ fifty was arrested on September sixth, twenty sixteen. He was the fourth person charged with tampering with evidence. He posted bail and was released from jail. None of the four suspects had been charged with murder, and all remained free on bail. After Pj's arrest, people began wondering if he had something to do with the recent death of his wife, Jennifer Shanahan Tucci forty four.

41:17 The county considered exuming her body, but the medical examiner stood firm that liver disease was her cause of death, but some pointed to this as a sign that she had possibly been poisoned. After questions of Pj's involvement lingered in the community, her family made the painful decision to release a statement regarding Jennifer's years long struggles with alcoholism. A statement from her family read, while we have kept these private details from the public, we feel the surge of speculation must be addressed. Jennifer's death in August of twenty fourteen was the result of liver disease from battling alcoholism.

41:57 She is one of the eighty eight thousand people in this country who lose their long fought battle with alcohol each year. The statement went on to highlight Jennifer's work in the community, quote, she tirelessly promoted Roman Catholic schools and provided many meals to those who were sick, as well as bereaved families. It's so sad that they had that they needed to issue this statement. Yeah, I'm almost surprised that they came to Pj's defense because he moved on so quickly. Yeah, I can see that too. We'll be back after a break. In December twenty sixteen, a grand jury indicted Laura forty five, PJ fifty, Colin twenty three, and Alex nineteen on charges of second degree murder and tampering with evidence. Laura was also charged with burglary.

42:54 While the crime was clearly premeditated given the Walmart trips for the items used during the murder, it didn't meet the technical legal criteria for first degree murder in New York because there were no aggravating factors such as killing a police officer, murders committed during other serious felonies, or serial or torture killings. I think one could argue that this was a torture killing. Second dree murder was the appropriate and highest charge they could possibly pursue for an intentional domestic murder. Colin also accused his sister of helping clean up the crime scene, but she was not charged. On his way to a court date in December, Colin was pulled over for driving on a suspended license and ticketed a knife and a twenty two caliber rifle were found in the vehicle. This really bothered me. We talk about this a lot, but once you're accused of murder and you're allowed to be out on bail, Yeah, I just feel like people are capable of, you know, a lot of a lot of things.

43:56 Yeah, definitely. The trial opened in June twenty seventeen, and it was a massive undertaking. Seeing an entire family Laura, her sons Colin and Alex, and her boyfriend Paul Tucci all lined up at the defence table together was a surreal sight for everyone in the courtroom. Each defendant was represented by a different legal team. Because there were four people potentially involved in Craig's murder, the prosecution used a theory called acting in concert. This means they didn't have to prove exactly whose hands were on the ligature or who delivered the blunt force blows. They only had to prove that the defendants worked together with the intent to kill Craig.

44:37 As long as the jury believed Laura, PJ, Colin, and Alex were part of the plan and the execution, they were all equally guilty of the murder and the eyes of the law. Trying all four at the same time, I think that must have been hard for the jury to keep track of the evidence and you know who did was Yeah. I would think so, although you know what you just said about they didn't. They didn't necessarily need to know exactly who it was, right, So it made it a little simpler. But you're right, it is pretty unusual. For four weeks, the courtroom was filled with the gruesome details of Craig's final moments, yet a mystery remained. Despite the mountain of evidence, prosecutors could never pinpoint exactly who delivered the fatal blow. The medical examiner testified that Craig had been strangled with the homemade garad and suffered blunt forest trauma, but the chaotic nature of the struggle meant any combination of the four could have been responsible. This ambiguity became a focal point for the defense, who argued that mere presence at the house didn't equal a murder conviction.

45:39 Jurors were tasked with untangling the specific roles each family member played in the planning, the killing, and the cleanup. To do this, they waded through over six hundred exhibits, including surveillance footage from Walmart and the trash bags were covered from the devil's bathtub. The defense argued that the items purchased at Walmart were for the family's impending move the bottles of drain cleaner. While lots of girls have long hair in the house, and before they could sell the home, the drains needed to be cleared. You can attest to that will that is true. The tarps and bungee cords were used to wrap up their belongings. The defense for all four defendants made the high stakes decision to rest their case without calling a single witness to the stand, using the rationale that the burden of proof rested entirely on the prosecution. By staying silent, they were betting that the state's circumstantial evidence simply wouldn't hold up under the weight of reasonable doubt. It also shielded the family from a potentially devastating crossed examination where they would have been forced to answer for the Walmart footage and the forensic evidence found in the basement. If you were their attorneys, would you have had them testify?

46:48 I don't know. To me, this just seems like a lost cause no matter what you do, so because the evidence is it just seems pretty overwhelming. During deliberations, the jurors requested to see the sweatpants that Alex had been wearing. They seemed to be conflicted to his level of involvement in the crime. The jury deliberated for four and a half days before coming to a mixed verdict. One person walked away free, one person was convicted of two counts of tampering with evidence, and two were convicted of second degree murder. Okay, look at me, eyes on me. Who do you think walked away free? I really don't know. I guess maybe Alex, like maybe the youngest.

47:29 Wrong. Who do you think was convicted of murder? I don't know? Apparently don't. I don't know any. Hey, Laura and and Colin were convicted of murder. Oh okay, Alex was convicted of two counts of tampering with evidence, and PJ was acquitted. Really after the verdict was read, Robin Drew, Craig's sister told MPR station w XXI, I am very pleased that we have a verdict and there has been some justice for my brother. We'll never get them back, but we have some answers. It's still beyond my comprehension that they thought this was the only way out. The ends didn't justify the means. They are all paying such a steep prices. Craig's mother was there for the reading of the verdict as well. She was quote pleased to have justice for him, but had complicated feelings about two of her grandsons being sentenced. Sadly, I think that after Craig's murder Nessie and Robin didn't have our relationship with any of the grandkids anymore. Somewhere along the way, Colin had proposed to his high school sweetheart Chelsea. She told Datelines she believed in his innocence quote, He's a smart guy, so no, I don't think he would ever put himself in that situation. He had a life ahead of him, He had no need. She was heavily featured in the Dateline episode, as was PJ. So it's definitely worth a watch and its linked in our show notes.

48:56 After spending three and a half years in prison, Alex was released twenty one. At his first parole hearing, his family members opposed his release and it was denied, But when after his release, he said that he wanted to go back to college and become a history professor, I don't have any updates on him. And remind me what was he convicted of? Two counts of tampering with evidence? Okay? So PJ sold his house and moved closer to Laura's prison and visits her every other day. He remains steadfast that she and her sons are innocent. He said he knows where everyone involved was on the night of Craig's murder. Quote, my life is on hold. I made a choice to be close to Laura because I still have hope. It's hard when you know in your heart that someone has been wrongfully incarcerated for that long. It's lonely at night.

49:48 In a more recent interview, Tousi told The Democrat and Chronicle, we still don't know who killed the guy. Laura still smiles. She misses her kids. P J knows that Laura may never get up of prison. Quote how long do you wait for someone? I'll never turn my back on her or those kids. Hopefully we see a sunset together. Laura works with the Puppies Behind Bars program, training service dogs for wounded war veterans and explosive detection canines for law enforcement. I hope those dogs bite her ass every day. You know, I was gonna say, working with dogs sounds like such a sweet thing, and I don't like that for her. Well, I really like they say, dogs, you know, can tell if you're a good purse or us. Yeah, all of Laura's appeals have been denied, and she won't be eligible for parole until twenty fifty five, when she is eighty three years old. In an interview with NBC News ten, Colin Wright out spoke about his father, quote, I did not respect or admire the man, but he was likable.

50:49 I could have enjoyable conversations with him, and we could talk about history, or economics or philosophy. But at a certain point I felt it was irresponsible of me to separate that from his personal coin. It was not a good environment and not what I thought that children should be in. Although Colin admitted he never witnessed any abusive behavior by his father, when asked if he thought his mother was capable of murder, he answered no, but only because I didn't see her as very capable in general. Honestly, she was kind of someone I felt responsible for in that sense that if you didn't keep track of her, she would miss appointments, she would be late for things. Colin maintains his innocence, although he admits that he did clean up the crime scene. He hasn't spoken to his mother in years, but claims she set him up. He pointed to the shovel that was left of the crime scene that he'd been purchasing at Walmart as proof that he was framed. Quote. The thing that angered me most was her unwillingness to take any kind of responsibility, because whenever I would talk to her, she would she would be, Oh, I'm so sorry, this is happening. It's like, no, this isn't just happening. She did this. Colin never gave an alternate explanation or alibi for the night of Craig's murder.

52:04 So Colin is saying here that his mother killed his dad, and he's admitting that he cleaned. He helped. Yeah, that was his only involvement. Okay, Yeah. Colin is housed at Attica State Prison, which they say is one of the hardest prisons. He works in the law library. He's taking college college classes and learning German. He'll be eligible for parole in twenty forty three, when he's fifty years old. I think he's thirty two now and Laura's appeal. Her attorney wrote, quote, this is not the plan of a reasonable, intelligent adult. This is more indicative of impetuous violence by sons who thought they were helping their siblings escape an abusive father, followed by a slap dash attempt to cover up their crime.

52:46 Wow, so she's playing the finger at her kids. It's just astounding to me. Yeah. After the convictions, the write Out family released his statement, quote, our family appreciates the support of our friends and the community during this difficult time. We are mourning the loss of a devoted father, son, and brother who is always ready with a smile or a joke. While there have been negative comments made against Craig's character, I asked that you consider his life of generosity, but before believing them. Through his work with the ministries and youth mentorship, Craig touched many lives and the stories shared by his friends and co workers are a testament to the loving person he truly was. He will be missed by all who knew him. Craig write Out loved to laugh, spend time with his children and mentor young people. He was an act of volunteer in his community, working with cub Scouts, local ministries, and the Catholic youth groups Rest in Peace Craig.

53:43 Parental alienation is a damaging process, often during high conflict divorce, where one parent manipulates a child or children to fear, distrust, or reject the other parent without justification. It involves, among other behaviors, bad mouthing the targeted pain, limiting contact, and forcing the child to choose sides, resulting in severe emotional harm to the child and a broken parent child bond. It can have devastating effects on the child, leading to anxiety, depression, lowered self esteem, substance abuse disorder, and decrease academic performance. According to a study done by Colorado State University, there is no documented evidence of a verbal or physical abuse by Craig write Out. Instead, he was widely described as a gentle, quiet and devoted father. Prosecutors argued that the crime was fueled by a systemic campaign of parental alienation, orchestrated by Laura write Out, who used the bitter divorce and custody battle to destroy the children's relationship with their father By framing Craig as a legal adversary intent on ruining the family, Laura and Paul Tucci fostered a toxic us versus Hymn mentality that he humanized Craig to the point where the other children viewed him as an obstacle rether than a parent. This deep emotional enmeshment explains how Colin and Alex could participate in such a gruesome murder and cleanup as the bond with their father had been completely severed. While the older sons work to dispose of

55:13 the body, the younger children remain in Craig's home, unaware of his fate until his sister eventually reported him missing to the authorities. That's one of the things I can't get over in this case, that they would actually kill while the little ones were asleep in that house. It's a lot of things I can't get over, but yeah, that is certainly one of the more disturbing aspects of it. If you are going through a divorce or separation, I think, truly the best thing that you can do for your kids is never hear an unkind word come out of your mouth about the other parent. I know that comes from a place of privilege because I've never been divorced, but. It's easier said than done. But yeah, it's just it's the. Best gift that you can give your children if you're going through a divorce. Is not saying anything negative.

55:57 Yeah, you have to assume both parents love the children and want the best for the children, and so what's best for the children is not to put them in a position where they're having to choose sides. Some of the discussion is just my comments on this case, not necessarily a question. But killing your ex husband is an incredibly selfish act, But involving your children and robbing them of both her father and their future is an incredibly evil act. Yeah, I'll say like to. Have Colin and Colin especially and Alex involved to such a degree. Yeah, and the other So the one brother was away in the marine, so I don't know if he the second brother, and then the fourth oldest of she was seventeen. She allegedly helped clean up too, and she went to Walmart once, so I have to believe that she kind of.

56:48 Used to stand on the planet sounds And. So at least four of the kids knew what was happening, or three of the kids knew what was happening. That is that is evil. I mean, there's no other word for it to involve your children, and even if they're a adults, I mean or close to adults, that's that's just yeah, that's really disgusting. Yeah, And I can't stop thinking about Craig's final moments, being lured into his basement and being brutally beaten and seeing your your wife, your best friend, and two of your kids. Yeah, what a betrayal. Heartbreaking. I can't stop thinking about PJ. Do you think that he got away with murder? Kind of seems that way in the fact that he was there buying the supplies and you mentioned, you know, him talking like when they were buying the acid, him motioning to his face. It just seems like he was definitely at least knew what the plan was, if not was directly involved in it.

57:46 And he must have incredible guilt because he's he was acquitted. And you know, you should have incredible guilt. It surprised me when you said that he still visits Laura every other day in prison. So maybe he does that to keep her from exactly I do think because he was featured heavily in the Dayline episode, I believe that he is fearful that he could still be prosecuted. Well, he can't be tried again under double jeopardy laws unless they could find something else to charge him with. Definitely charge him with something. But yeah, he probably is very scared and wants to keep Laura as happy as possible. It bothered me that it seems like no one in his case had remorse.

58:28 Yeah, that's just another disturbing aspect of this case that I mean, it's disturbing to me that four people would be involved in killing anyone and not one of them would say this is wrong, we shouldn't be doing this. But the fact that none of them seem to have any remorse and now they're all pointing fingers at each other, or some of them or pointing fingers at each other, it's just Yeah, the whole thing is really just disgusting. PJ accuses the police of not pursuing any other suspects. Do you think that they're sometimes I forgot to ask that. Do you feel like these people were all involved in the murder of Craig Right? It seems very very clear to me that they were all involved in the murder one way or another. And sometimes police don't pursue another suspect because they find the right ones really quickly, and there's enough evidence that it doesn't make sense that anyone else was involved.

59:20 I saw a quote from an investigator that said this was almost the perfect crime, and I was like, really, it. Doesn't even sound remotely close. Well, he had the cell phone not been in Craig's pockets. Had they not been seen. Something the body got it by the farmer. Had they not been seen dumping the evidence in this lake. But it would have been perfect, perfect if there wasn't blood all over and fingerprints from Laura on the diet. Well, you know, had the garage worked and you know they wouldn't have ruptured his karate artery, there would have been less right. But if I was going to call something the perfect crime, I would say that none of those things, all those things would have been planned for and accounted for.

1:00:06 The acid on the face is really disturbing to me too. I think that's just symbolic of, you know, hatred that they had for him. Do we know if that was done at his house or if it was done after they took. His wondering about that, but they must have done it while he was at the house. But you would think that it would have eaten through the floor and I don't know, I really don't want to think about it. Oh, it's really horrible. Do you think that had the farmer not seen them dumping Craig's body that it they might not have found him. I mean, it sounds like I don't know the area very well, but it sounds like it was probably a fairly remote area and if they put the body, you know, far into the woods, it might have taken a while to find it. So yeah, it was pretty fortunate.

1:00:51 I think for me crazy how quickly he was found, like within hours, and that almost never happened. Yeah, that certainly helps solve a crime if you can, you know, make that discovery very quickly. We're kind of morbid because we have a true crime podcast and when we go for walks, a lot of times you'll point out, oh, that would be a good place to bury a body. But I always wonder about you know, wildlife and watten like turkey vultures be circling ahead and things like that. So yeah, I was going to say that. I think, you know, if you if you hide a body in the woods like that and it's not buried, then you know it is going to attract attention at a certain point, maybe within a couple of days. Well, that is the devastating case of Craig rite Out all right, before we go, I wanted to talk about some not so mastermind criminals.

1:01:43 Okay. In two thousand and nine, two men in Iowa were arrested for an attempted burglary. They didn't have masks, so they decided to improvise with something they found in the car. What do you think they used to hide their identities. Something they found in the car? I don't know. I can't imagine. Matthew McNelly and Joey Miller drew masks directly under their skin with a heavy duty sharpie. It didn't hide their features, but it definitely didn't watch easily when the plater found them. Oh man, that is not the smartest idea. MacArthur Wheeler robbed two banks in Pittsburgh and Broad Daylight without a mask. When police caught him, he was shocked because he believed rubbing a specific kitchen staple on his face would make him invisible to surveillance cameras. What was the substance?

1:02:38 Once again, I have no idea. Maybe a glass of milk or something. I don't know. So the man knew that lemon juice could be used as invisible ink on paper, so he figured it if he smeared it on his skin that he would be invisible to the eyes of the camera. Perfect sense, I can see that. Very smart. A burglar and pencil was easily tracked down after he broke into a home and stole jewelry and cash. Before he left, he decided to use the victim's computer, but he made one fatal error. What did he do? Logged in as himself on something on Facebook?

1:03:19 Can't imagine me needing to look at my Facebook profile? That bad? You got to be away from your friends for that long. So. In nineteen eighty nine, a man in California attempted to rob a bank by handing the teller a demand note. The police arrived at his house before he even got home because of what was printed on the back of the note. What was it? His address? His own paycheck? He'd written the robbery note on the back of his actual past up, which included his full name and address. Oh man and the last one. A man in Florida once called nine to one one to lodge a formal complaint against a local dealer. What was his specific grievance that led to his immediate arrest.

1:04:03 He bought drugs from this person, then they didn't deliver. He called the authorities because the mat that he had just purchased was actually just a common rockball, and he wanted the police to help get. Oh boy, I have heard of a few nine to one one calls like that that were just so ridiculous, like that, Why would you? Why would you call it? I know, like I don't think of myself as that high up the evolutionary, you know, design, but I probably wouldn't. You wouldn't have done any probably not. I like to think I wouldn't have done them either. Right now that the Olympics are over and football is over, what are you? Are you feeling a little.

1:04:46 Well March madness. I'm just gonna say that, yes. And I am not a big basketball. They have some big news though I. Do, so I really don't follow basketball at all. I will watch some basketball during March Madness because it's kind of fun and exciting. I'm just not that big of a basketball guy. But when I was in Florida, I was wearing my University of Michigan sweatshirt and someone's. Listener his of like one of my many when you were on your last trip. I know, I'm so much fun, but I cleaned out part of your closet and you had like fifteen University of Michigan sweatshirts. That might be a little bit of an exaggeration, but probably ten at least. But anyway, I was wearing one of my many Michigan sweatshirts and somebody, some random person, just said, hey, Michigan basketball teams, they're going to go all the way this year, right, And I was like what, and he said, yeah, they're ranked number one and I had no idea. Yeah, that's exciting.

1:05:43 Yeah, it will be exciting. Hopefully they will stick around for a while. That would be great. If they could win a national championship, that would be very exciting for us in the Ann Arbor area. How much money are you putting down on Michigan. Well, that depends I applied for a second mortgage to our home, so it really depends on if that comes through or not. Yeah, that's super fun. I love that for us. Well, you've wasted another hour listening to Rigentina on Love Mary. Kill I don't think it was wasted hour. I'm going to make a plea for anyone everyone who's listening. If you enjoy your podcast, if you could please leave us a good review on Spotify or Apple or wherever you listen, that would be great.

1:06:28 Technically you can't really leave a review on Spotify, but you can. Thank you for pointing that out. You're so helpful. Well, I don't want people to get confused. You can leave us a review on Apple, you can leave us a comment or a rating on Spotify. We appreciate it either way, we do. We really would like to continue to do this and continue to grow, So that's the best way that you can help us. And it doesn't cost you anything. It just takes a couple of minutes. So if you wouldn't mind doing that, we would greatly appreciate it. Thank you again to Doug and Amy for the wonderful snat much appreciate. If you've sent us a snacker promise, we will get to it as soon as possible. Until next time, don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife.