March 2, 2026

Laura and Craig Rideout

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In 2016, in Rochester, New York, Laura and Craig Rideout were going through a bitter divorce that pitted the couple’s seven children against their father. When Craig's body was found in the woods just hours after his disappearance, suspicion quickly fell on Laura and her boyfriend, Paul “PJ” Tucci. But as the story unfolded, it revealed a shocking betrayal of a loving father by his own family.

Today's snack: Utz Original, Kettle and Crab chips (thanks Amy and Doug!)

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Hi.

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I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. There's one thing we've learned

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in over twenty years of marriage.

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It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife, and.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hi Rich, Hi Tina.

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How are you?

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I am doing good? How are you?

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I am doing well too. During our opening, I forgot

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how long we've been together.

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Yeah you did, I did.

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I said thirty years instead of twenty years. So yeah,

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we're not there yet, although it does feel like we've

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been together forever one hundred years. Do you remember life

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before me?

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No? I really well, I do. I do. I'm sure

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you remember life.

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Before so wistful when you said that, it's so happy.

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Too, remember it every every day, every day one.

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It's okay, you don't have to stay married.

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I'm pretty happy. I'm very happy.

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Pretty happy?

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All right?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, same, same.

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Glad we got that cleared up and out of the way.

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Well, it's still February and we're still in winter, and

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it's still dark and the weather's kind of gloomy. Do

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you have anything you need to complain about?

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Taxes? That's about was working on our taxes? Yeah, I

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hate taxes. Okay, it's just so it's not that I

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hate paying our taxes. It's just so complicated. It really

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is very way too complicated.

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And it's not like we have tons of money, and

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it's like not that it should not be that hard

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to do our taxes. It doesn't some nice person.

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But even when you have someone do them for you, you

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still have to like, you know, answer.

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You send me a bunch of stuff I need X,

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Y and Z, you know.

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Like I know, I know, I just I hate it.

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All.

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Okay, So that's how our taxes looking, by the way,

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not good. Oh really.

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Not great. Sorry to spring that news on you, you

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at our in a live recording session.

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But yeah, okay, so we're going to be a little

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money really all right, Well that's awesome to hear. But

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I was sad. It was in a good ruin and

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now I'm sad. Well I was going to complain about

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the cable company. I know we're dinosaurs because we still

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have Yeah, we should keep the we should cut the cord.

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I guess we have a lot of street We have

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a lot because a lot for the podcast, we need

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to do a lot of research.

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They got to find a line it's on peacock. I

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gotta find a forensic files it's on something else.

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Right. So we have a lot of streaming services, but

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we still have our old fashioned cable too, and you

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have to call them like once a year, like every

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six months to twelve months. And if you call them

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and like, yeah, I'm going to cancel my cable, then

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they give you some good deal and it infuriates me.

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I think, in general, I'm a really nice person, but

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when I get on the phone with these people, I

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am not nice.

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I rarely see you as angry as when you get

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off the phone with the cable people. And by the way,

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thank you for taking one for the team. No, I didn't.

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Remember because I was so I'm embarrassed. I was so

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angry with this person that I said, I'm sorry, i

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can't continue this call. And I guess I'm going to

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have my husband call because you're not making any sense

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to me. Anyway. I'd been transferred twice and I was

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on the phone for over twenty minutes, and I said,

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how much longer is this going to take? And he said, oh,

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at least another twenty minutes, because I need to find

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you the best deals. And I was like, I literally cannot.

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Yeah, so I don't know.

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I do. That's my rant.

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It's a big racket, like the way they do that.

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Just give us the price that you.

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Can give me the best deal. That's it. And I

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wish that I could just do it online and not

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have to call. And the guy on the phone was

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like super salesy and like perky. Even though he was

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yelling at him, he was still giving me his salesy voice,

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and I was like, buddy, we're not friends.

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So please, Well you did your best.

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Well, I do have a snack today for you.

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Okay, are you ready?

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Our friends Doug and Amy from Maryland sent us a

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box of snacks excellent. They are uts chips and oh

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my gosh, one of them is the crab chip, one

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of them is the classic cattle chip and the original chip.

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And she also sends a container of Old Bay seasoning,

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which is so funny because I just ran out of

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it a couple of weeks ago and have not bought

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new Old Bay seasoning. So you know, some of our

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listeners send us Christmas cards. What is your favorite Christmas

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card that you've seen?

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The one with the guy with the underwear.

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That's Doug Doug Namy. So, yeah, this is a nice

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package from them. But they have a really cute tradition

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where Doug takes he takes pictures in his speedo as

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they travel throughout the world. It's amazing. It's a really

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great fun tradition. Well, let's try these uts chips. We

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do have uts chips by us. Actually maybe I see

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them once in a while.

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It's pretty rare ied to eet them when I would

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go to Boston. And I really love the kettle chips,

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really really good.

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All right, well let's give them a try. What did

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you think of the uts snacks?

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They were awesome and the kettle chips I love, They're

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my favorite. The original ones are also really good. Crab

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ones little I.

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Like the ones. They are really good.

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Yeah, but they were. That's so nice of them. We

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have we have a lot of listeners snacks kind of

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backed up, right, we do.

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And if you sent us a snack, please be patient

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with us. We're sorry that it's taken us a little

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time to get through them. Means so much to us

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that you want to share a little piece of your

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hometown or your state or your lives with us. It's

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you just so messy. Thank you so much, Doug and Amy.

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Today I'm going to tell you the story of Laura

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and Craig right out. We try to do as many

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listener requested cases as we can, but I found this one.

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I don't do this very often anymore, but I was

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watching a dateline for a different case and as it finished,

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I was wrapped up into the next one that started automatically,

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and it was the story of and Craig. Yeah, it's

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a very interesting story. In the early morning hours in

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the Finger Lakes region of New York on July twenty first,

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twenty sixteen, as the moon still lit the sky and

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the humid air lingered, a Mennonite farmer started his pre

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dawn chores, his straw hat perched atop his head, not

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out of necessity, but out of habit. He saw the

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lights before he heard the crunch of tires On the

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quiet road before his farm. Two vehicles, a sedan and

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a mini van, stopped and idled along the roadside. He

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squinted through the pre dawn mist as two dark clad

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silhouettes emerged from the vehicles. They appeared to be partnered

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carrying something heavy and cumbersome, but the farmer couldn't track

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their movements as they disappeared into the inky woods. He

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didn't call out or make himself known, But after he'd

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eaten breakfast and the sun had fully risen, the farmer's

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curiosity got the best of him. He walked to the

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road to survey the spot where he'd seen the shadowy

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figures earlier. He followed the trample tangle of weeds about

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fifty feet off the road, where he discovered a fresh

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looking brown tarp cinched tight with bungee cords around a

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trunk like shape talked among the brambles and scrub A

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shovel lay near by among disturbed dirt where someone had

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half heartedly started to dig a shallow hole, but abandoned

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the project when the ground proved too hard to move

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and fled the scene. The farmer peeled back a corner

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of the heavy tarp, exposing a single bare foot. He

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jumped back in surprise. The realization hid him that the

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figures that he'd seen earlier hadn't been dumping trash on

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the woods, but a body. He went inside to call

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the police, who rushed to the scene. As investigators began,

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the grim tatsk of unwrapping the parcel. The smell hit

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them first, not the scent of decay, but the sharp,

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acrid sting of industrial chemicals. A caustic substance had been

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poured on the man, obscuring his facial features and fingerprints

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to make identification more difficult. His face was raw and red,

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the skin bubbling up where the chemicals had angrily burned

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through his features. The chemical had also destroyed his fingers

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and hands. He had been savagely beaten, his body covered

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in bruises. He had also suffered a skull fracture. The

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poor man had been subjected to a level of violence

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that felt deeply personal. A phone shrilled, cutting through the

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air and breaking the somber silence. They looked at each other,

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checking their own pockets to determine where the sound came from,

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until they realized their ringing was coming from inside the tarp.

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It was a chilling reminder that although someone had tried

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to erase this man from existence, he still mattered to others,

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and they were already starting to look for him. Just

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hours after his brutal death, there was an emergency contact

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in the phone Robin Drew. The police didn't know who

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she was yet, but later that afternoon, Robin would contact

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them to report her brother Craig right out missing.

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Well, first of all, there's a very vivid picture that

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you just painted of the scene. I can't imagine making

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that kind of a discovery. But who you know, they

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went through this, whoever killed this person went through this

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effort of concealing their identity by using acid on their

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face and hands. But they left their cell phone in

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their pocket.

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Mm hmmm. We'll get to it later, but there is

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a reason why they thought that he didn't have a

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cell phone in his pocket.

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But it is.

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Overkill and it's so sad that they did this to

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this man's face because, I mean, you're going to be

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able to identify the body through dental records, So you know,

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the thought that they thought they were so smart, Yeah,

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you know, pouring it on his face and obscuring his fingerprints.

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Well, that seems like they had plans to bury the body,

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so they were hoping it wouldn't be found at all,

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but that didn't work out. It seems it's.

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A lot harder to bury a whole than you think

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it isn't it. Every time, you know, we'd do any

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yard work and you have to dig a hole. It's like, yeah,

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it's hard work.

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It really is.

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Yeah. Craig Wallace write Out was born to Agnes NeSSI

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and Richard Dick on April twenty fourth, nineteen sixty six,

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in Pittsford, New York, outside of Rochester. Craig's only sibling, Robin,

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was born eighteen months before. NeSSI worked as a travel agent,

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while Dick spent his career working for Kodak Eastman. They

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were a warm, loving, deeply religious family. Robin later said

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her brother was a quote wonderfully funny individual with an

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astute sense of humor. He liked reading, he liked music,

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he loved his family. She said he had a wicked

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sense of humor that was not mean or naughty, but

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a little mischievous or mischievous the US. Craig attended Union

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College in Schenectady, about four hours from home, majoring in economics.

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While there, he joined an alcohol free fraternity. His senior

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thesis was titled the distortionary effects of continual real government

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budget deficits.

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That's a good one. I read that.

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I'm so glad that I did not have to do

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a senior thesis. In nineteen eighty eight. Soon after graduation,

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Craig met his future wife, Laura Assam at a pub.

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Five years Craig's junior, she was just starting college in Buffalo.

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Robin said, quote, they were so enamored of each other,

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you could just see the twinkle in their eyes. Laura

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and Craig married in January nineteen ninety three. She was

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twenty two and he was twenty seven. Their first son, Colin,

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was born in October of that year. Six more children followed, Andrew, Alexander, Elizabeth, Julia, Patrick,

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and Maddel. Craig worked as an IT specialist and computer

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programmer for a financial services group while Laura stayed home

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with her brood. The Writeouts bought a nice four bedroom

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home on six acres in Pittsford, New York, where there

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was always room for one more friend or family member

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00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:21.600
around the dinner table. Craig's best friend, Paul PJ. Tucci,

240
00:12:21.799 --> 00:12:25.279
and his wife Jennifer, along with their four children, loved

241
00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:29.360
spending time together. PJ was godfather to Colin, the oldest

242
00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:33.000
write Out child. Money was tight for the large family,

243
00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:36.519
and Laura didn't like sticking to Craig's budget. She always

244
00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:39.799
thought he was exaggerating their financial situation, but when they

245
00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:43.480
faced bankruptcy, they were forced to relocate to a smaller home.

246
00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:48.399
The once happy home was now filled with resentment and acrimony.

247
00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:52.000
I can't imagine the financial strain of raising a family

248
00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:52.799
with seven.

249
00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:55.679
Kid, Kevin kids. Yeah, just with our two kids, there

250
00:12:55.679 --> 00:12:59.200
were so many expenses, and you know, just dance and

251
00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:03.399
sport and all the shoes and the things, and having

252
00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:06.039
seven kids that would be really hard. And I think

253
00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:08.840
Craig made a decent living, but that's a lot of

254
00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:12.240
mouths to feed. The rite of family was fracturing from

255
00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:16.200
the inside out as Laura's deepening bitterness took seed, extending

256
00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:20.360
to her in laws. Holiday gatherings became a battlefield where

257
00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:25.440
Laura's calculated absences forced the children to choose a side. Robin,

258
00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:29.519
Craig's sister, remembered the sting of the new family dynamic quote.

259
00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:33.000
We would say, are you guys coming, Oh, yeah, we'll

260
00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:36.000
all be there, and ultimately maybe four of them would

261
00:13:36.039 --> 00:13:39.159
come and they'd say, oh, Mom's not feeling well, and

262
00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:41.639
then one of the other kids would say, that's not true.

263
00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:45.919
Mom didn't want to come. During their growing troubles, Craig

264
00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:49.080
retreated to the world of online gaming, while Laura found

265
00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:53.519
solace in the arms of PJ. Tucci, Craig's best friend.

266
00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:58.480
Pj's wife, Jennifer, died in August twenty fourteen. Within a

267
00:13:58.519 --> 00:14:01.840
month of Jennifer's death, Laura and some of her children

268
00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:05.720
moved into Pj's house. Oh Craig also moved out of

269
00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:08.799
the rite out's family home and rented a townhouse nearby

270
00:14:08.919 --> 00:14:12.759
in Penfield. He was heartbroken over the breakup of his marriage,

271
00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:15.799
but sent PJ an email telling him that if he

272
00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:20.120
found happiness with Laura, he was happy for them. Colin

273
00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:23.360
went away to maritime college. He dreamed of becoming a

274
00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:27.840
Navy seal, Andrew, the second oldest, joined the Marines. In

275
00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:31.759
November twenty fourteen. After twenty one years of marriage, Laura

276
00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:32.759
filed for divorce.

277
00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:36.559
That is pretty amazing that Craig sent an email to

278
00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:39.720
his former best friend wishing him luck with his wife.

279
00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:42.039
That's a bigger man than I would Tea. I believe.

280
00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:43.840
I don't think you would be able to be that forgiving.

281
00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:45.440
I don't think so, but I always think about you.

282
00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:45.519
Know.

283
00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:48.960
I was a huge Beatles fan and George Harrison was

284
00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:51.919
married and his wife had an affair with Eric Clapton

285
00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:54.840
and who was a good friend of George's, and they

286
00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:57.879
remain friends, which it just still it blows my mind

287
00:14:57.879 --> 00:15:00.759
that you could remain friends with something. But I guess,

288
00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:04.159
you know, it takes a certain level of maturity just

289
00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:05.039
to move on.

290
00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:09.200
Well, because you sent that email doesn't necessarily mean that's

291
00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:11.440
how he felt. Maybe he felt like that's what he

292
00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:14.679
needed to do. I think the friendship was pretty much

293
00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:15.720
over by that point.

294
00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:19.320
Yeah, I would imagine almost two years later, the divorce

295
00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:21.919
was still dragging on and they hadn't even reached a

296
00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:25.840
custody agreement. Laura and PJ were ready for a fresh

297
00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:29.440
start together with their younger kids. They set their sights

298
00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:33.279
on North Carolina. They started packing and even signed a

299
00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:36.320
lease on a new place, but Craig needed to sign

300
00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:39.960
off on custody of the two youngest children, six and twelve.

301
00:15:40.759 --> 00:15:43.240
They lived with him, and he refused to give them up.

302
00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:48.679
A contentious battle ensued. The children even got involved. Colin,

303
00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:51.320
who had been away at college for two years, quit

304
00:15:51.399 --> 00:15:54.679
school and moved in with Laura and PJ to watch

305
00:15:54.679 --> 00:15:57.559
over his siblings and mother, who he deemed were in

306
00:15:57.679 --> 00:16:02.320
danger from Craig leaned heavily on Colin, who often took

307
00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:04.919
care of the younger kids, making sure they got to

308
00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:09.720
school or appointments on time. Text messages between Laura and

309
00:16:09.799 --> 00:16:14.480
Colin from January twenty sixteen revealed a disturbing plan that

310
00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:18.639
involved the two eldest Ride Out girls, Elizabeth and Julia.

311
00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:22.799
The girls were tasked with provoking Craig into losing his

312
00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:27.320
temper while recording him after triggering an outburst and calling

313
00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:30.279
the police. They planned to claim that he was abusive

314
00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:34.440
and violent. By making it clear they felt unsafe, they

315
00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:37.399
hoped to involve the court and force a change in

316
00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:41.799
the custody arrangement. Colin wrote in a text message quote

317
00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:44.320
tell them you're afraid your dad is going to kill

318
00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:47.799
your younger siblings when he gets home, and in another

319
00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:51.320
message quote, don't hesitate to call nine one one if

320
00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:54.039
he's ever screaming, because that would play well in court.

321
00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:57.799
The correct verbiage to get their attention would be he's

322
00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:00.360
trying to break down the door and I'm afraid he's

323
00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:03.120
going to kill my sister. Wow. This is a very

324
00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:05.720
specific instructions.

325
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:06.480
Very manipulative.

326
00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:11.000
Oh yeah, Elizabeth barricaded herself and two of her younger

327
00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:13.759
siblings in a room and tried to get a reaction

328
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:17.160
from their father. The problem with the plan was that

329
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:20.519
Craig was a pretty calm guy. It fell through when

330
00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:24.839
the children couldn't rattle him enough to justify calling the police.

331
00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:28.400
So all the kids have basically turned against their dad

332
00:17:28.440 --> 00:17:30.559
in this. It sounds like or most of them.

333
00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:31.960
The older ones, for sure.

334
00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:36.200
Yeah, that's really sad. On July thirteenth, a week before

335
00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:39.359
his death, Craig awoke to a sharp pain in his arm,

336
00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:42.640
as if a hare was being plucked out. He went

337
00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:45.519
back to sleep, but the next morning his house, keys

338
00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:49.119
and BlackBerry had disappeared. He was sure one of his

339
00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:52.920
sons was involved, but still called the police to report

340
00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:56.759
the theft because it was his work phone. Colin denied

341
00:17:56.839 --> 00:17:57.599
any involvement.

342
00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:02.839
Remember back in the introduction when that was Craig the

343
00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:06.519
phone rang, So his phone was his BlackBerry was stolen

344
00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:10.920
and in all likelihood that was Colin that stole his phone. Okay,

345
00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:16.000
Craig's sister went and bought him. It wasn't like like

346
00:18:16.039 --> 00:18:17.759
an iPhone or anything like that. I think it was

347
00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:21.119
just a burner phone. But no one knew that he

348
00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:25.480
had this burner and his sister Robin had put her

349
00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:28.079
name in the phone as an emergency contact, but no

350
00:18:28.119 --> 00:18:31.920
one else had this the number to this burner phone.

351
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:32.920
It's okay, interesting.

352
00:18:34.039 --> 00:18:36.680
I wanted to do this when you were sleeping this week,

353
00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:39.039
to try to pull that hair out of your arm

354
00:18:39.319 --> 00:18:42.240
to see if it will you up. And I don't

355
00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:45.480
know why he needed the hair. If they were going

356
00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:49.119
to plant it somewhere is evidence. Yeah, it's a very

357
00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:49.960
strange thing to do.

358
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:53.640
That is very strange. The tension between Craig and Colin

359
00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:57.240
reached a fever pitch, with Colin squarely placing the blame

360
00:18:57.319 --> 00:19:00.519
for their family coming apart at the seams on his father.

361
00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:05.559
Their mutual frustration culminated in a series of angry emails.

362
00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:09.480
Colin wrote, you are a chronic liar and I'm sick

363
00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:12.920
of you dragging my mother through this contorted divorce while

364
00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:16.319
you abuse the court system to try and retain control

365
00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:20.000
over her life. If you had any decency, you'd end

366
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:23.039
this divorce as soon as possible. Let my mother and

367
00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:27.200
especially Luke and Julia leave. Notice that every child who

368
00:19:27.319 --> 00:19:31.200
is old enough to choose has fled Craig tried to

369
00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:34.640
strike a calmer tone. I enjoy talking with you and

370
00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:38.000
am generally proud of you as my son. I would

371
00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:39.640
like to think that you and I can have a

372
00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:43.319
relationship without all of the bullshit and drama associated with

373
00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:47.160
your mother. He encouraged Colin to call him so that

374
00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:50.400
they could talk things through, but Colin was on the

375
00:19:50.440 --> 00:19:53.960
offensive and wouldn't back down, insisting his father give up

376
00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:56.680
custody of the younger kids so they could move to

377
00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:01.000
North Carolina with their mother. Quote this, this is ridiculous.

378
00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:04.519
I am tired of your duplicity, your constant lying, and

379
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.640
your disgusting attempts to keep my mother and siblings under

380
00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:11.960
your thumb. While you're maybe quote generally proud of me

381
00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:14.440
as your son, I am not at all proud of

382
00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:17.759
you as my father. The things you do, especially your

383
00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:22.799
actions during this divorce, are despicable. Colin started copying the

384
00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:25.759
whole family on his emails, while Alex took the fight

385
00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:28.880
to Facebook, both of them working to turn the world

386
00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:32.480
against their father. It was a public smear campaign that

387
00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:37.119
left Craig blindsided and confused, struggling to understand why his

388
00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:40.759
own sons were painting him as the villain. This makes

389
00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:42.920
me so sad as a father to read about this.

390
00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:46.039
I just you know, divorce is just a tough thing,

391
00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:49.640
but when your children end up getting pitted against one parent,

392
00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:52.680
it's just so it's really hardreat.

393
00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:57.559
It's telling too that Colin is putting all this in

394
00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:01.880
emails and text messages and was putting it on Facebook

395
00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:06.039
instead of having conversations in person. They were obviously setting

396
00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:06.480
him up.

397
00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:11.400
Yeah, four days after that last email, Craig Rideout was dead.

398
00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:15.359
We should mention that Craig's friends and family call him

399
00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:18.400
a devoted father who loved his children, a man of

400
00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:21.720
great warmth and humor, who was generous with his time,

401
00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:26.400
volunteering with youth ministries and mentoring young people. There's no

402
00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:31.279
evidence that he was verbally or physically abusive. Laura's primary

403
00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:35.039
weapon before the murder was the legal system. She filed

404
00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:39.279
multiple reports with Child Protective Services, painting Craig as a

405
00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:43.839
dangerous and abusive father, but when investigators looked into it,

406
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:48.319
they found nothing to back her up. Those unsubstantiated claims

407
00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:51.359
were the final straw when the court failed to give

408
00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:54.880
Laura the win that she was looking for. Laura decided

409
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:58.079
on a deadly plan with a least signed on a

410
00:21:58.119 --> 00:22:01.880
new apartment and the moving truck act, she became desperate.

411
00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:05.160
Would you sign away custody rights to your kids?

412
00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:07.480
No, of course, of course not. I'm sure there are

413
00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:12.119
some people, both men and women, more traditionally men, who

414
00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:13.920
just sort of want to move on with their life.

415
00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:15.799
I'm sure there are some people who would do that,

416
00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:18.640
but you know, most people would certainly not.

417
00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:22.279
Just surprising that they would pack up this moving truck

418
00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:26.640
and sign a new lease before they had Craig's permission. Yeah,

419
00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:28.720
I think a new school year was about to start

420
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:31.720
and that was one of the motivating factors. Whether they

421
00:22:31.720 --> 00:22:34.079
felt like, oh, we need to get this done. I'm

422
00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:37.680
not sure how I know that PJ had four children too.

423
00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:40.640
I'm not sure what their ages were, if they were,

424
00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:44.559
you know, similar ages. I think some of them were older,

425
00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:46.519
and maybe he still had a couple that were school

426
00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:47.000
aged two.

427
00:22:47.319 --> 00:22:50.079
Right. Maybe they just assumed that things have been dragging

428
00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:51.720
on for so long that they were going to get

429
00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:56.359
wrapped up pretty quickly. But still seems pretty presumptuous to

430
00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:58.519
make a move like that and have it all planned

431
00:22:58.519 --> 00:23:01.400
out when things are still up in the we'll be

432
00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:02.519
back after a break.

433
00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:13.599
During the contentious custody battle, Craig's sister was his rock

434
00:23:13.720 --> 00:23:16.920
and confident. They spoke every day. On the morning of

435
00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:19.720
July twentieth, when Robin couldn't get a hold of Preig,

436
00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:24.559
she became nervous. It wasn't like him to ignore her calls, texts,

437
00:23:24.680 --> 00:23:27.720
or emails. When she called the office where he worked,

438
00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:30.119
they told her he did not come in that day,

439
00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:33.480
but he'd sent an email the previous evening that said,

440
00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:37.079
my daughter remains ill. I may not be able to

441
00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:39.519
answer the phone, as I will be taking her to

442
00:23:39.559 --> 00:23:42.960
the doctor's office. What do you think of this message?

443
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:46.799
This seemed like a very strange email. If I was

444
00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:50.200
calling in because my daughter was ill, I don't think

445
00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:51.720
I would point out the fact that I may not

446
00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:53.519
be able to answer the phone as I'll be taking

447
00:23:53.559 --> 00:23:54.519
her to the doctor's office.

448
00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:56.039
Sound it sounds suspicious?

449
00:23:56.119 --> 00:23:57.039
It sure does.

450
00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:00.559
The last time they'd spoken and Craig had it mentioned

451
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:04.839
Madeleine was sick. She continued to call Craig's cellphone all morning,

452
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:08.079
but never reached him. By noon, when she still hadn't

453
00:24:08.119 --> 00:24:11.039
touched base with him, she drove over to his townhouse.

454
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:14.279
She was shocked to find her sister in law there.

455
00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:18.319
Laura tried to be friendly and breezy, but something felled off.

456
00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:21.720
To Robin, Laura said, I figured it was only a

457
00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:24.240
matter of time before someone came looking for him. I

458
00:24:24.359 --> 00:24:28.240
have no idea where he is. Robin knew the relationship

459
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:31.480
between Craig and Laura was nowhere near the point where

460
00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:34.240
Laura would have a key or be welcome to just

461
00:24:34.359 --> 00:24:37.480
drop in and make herself at home, and she didn't

462
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:40.839
answer how she'd entered the house. Laura said that the

463
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:43.960
kids had called her that morning worried because Craig wasn't home.

464
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:47.160
Colin drove over, picked them up, and dropped them off

465
00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:50.559
at school. Laura explained to Robin that she'd stopped by

466
00:24:50.599 --> 00:24:54.000
after she'd grown concerned about Craig. She let herself in

467
00:24:54.039 --> 00:24:57.480
and began tidying up while she was there because there

468
00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:01.400
was an odd odor in the kitchen. But Robin knew better.

469
00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:05.160
Craig kept an impeccably clean house, and Laura was not

470
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:09.240
known for her cleanliness. A strong chemical smell lingered in

471
00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:12.920
the air, and Robin thought Laura was acting strange. She'd

472
00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:15.799
left the vacuum in the middle of the room. Laura

473
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:18.640
made her excuses and left with a full trash bag

474
00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:21.880
of unknown contents in her hand and a folded and

475
00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:26.680
unused black trash bag under her arm. Scanning the town house,

476
00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:30.119
Robin realized all of Craig's shoes were still there. He

477
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:33.160
only owned three pairs, which made it strange that his

478
00:25:33.240 --> 00:25:36.680
minivan was gone. She also found it suspicious that his

479
00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:40.720
bedroom door was locked. As soon as Laura left, Robin

480
00:25:40.759 --> 00:25:44.279
didn't hesitate and called the police. I know what you're

481
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:47.920
thinking here. Why did Craig need three pairs of shoes when.

482
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:50.319
That's an awful lot of pair of shoes there?

483
00:25:50.359 --> 00:25:54.759
DEV just kidding, but rich usually, I mean you have

484
00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:56.359
more than three pairs of shoes?

485
00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:57.880
Yeah, I only wear one or two.

486
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:03.960
Here's a clip of Robin talking to the police. What

487
00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:07.200
brother he had not been ansering peck or the phone

488
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:10.960
call or email, and I could be making a mountain

489
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:13.720
out of them ogle. And here's another clip of Robin

490
00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:17.640
talking to the police officers along with two of Craig's children.

491
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:20.839
Obviously you're a little bit concerned about them. I guess

492
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:23.279
I knew where to where to think. Was he there

493
00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:25.519
when you woke up the last time you show your

494
00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:31.319
dad was when honey, yesterday jus games on the computer.

495
00:26:31.519 --> 00:26:34.359
She and went to the background, and then he went downstairs.

496
00:26:35.559 --> 00:26:36.880
That night he was downstairs.

497
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:38.359
And when he disappeared in.

498
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:40.440
The morning, what was the last time you saw him?

499
00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:42.880
Call me? Were up?

500
00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:45.200
Then very last night when he was going to bunt?

501
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:46.640
And then what happened this morning?

502
00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:47.759
Was it?

503
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:53.279
So I was just gissing you went to work. So

504
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:56.880
whatever happened to Craig happened with these two children in

505
00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:57.359
the house.

506
00:26:57.480 --> 00:26:58.119
Oh yeah.

507
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:02.720
When police rid at Craig's townhouse, everything looked neat and orderly,

508
00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:06.079
but the house felt almost too clean. The sharp, clinical

509
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:08.880
scent of leech hung heavy in the air, a sterile

510
00:27:08.920 --> 00:27:11.319
contrast to the violence that had just taken place there

511
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:14.279
hours earlier. But when the police went to the basement,

512
00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:17.640
what they found was alarming. Two trash bags filled with

513
00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:21.400
bloody clothing, bloody cleaning rags, and even a garrot, the

514
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:24.920
likely murder weapon. Can you explain what a garat is quickly?

515
00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:27.200
Yeah? I think it's like a piece of rope or

516
00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:31.359
twine tied between like usually two wooden pieces, so you

517
00:27:31.400 --> 00:27:34.400
can wrap it around someone's and that can twist twist

518
00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:36.240
the wood to choke someone.

519
00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:39.720
Well, this was more homemade. It was made with a

520
00:27:39.799 --> 00:27:41.720
nylon cord and duct tape.

521
00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:42.160
Okay.

522
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:46.160
At first glance, investigators missed it, but the shelving unit

523
00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:49.960
and the storage containers were spotted with blood spatter. A

524
00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:53.400
disinfected white container had bloody fingerprints on it that were

525
00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:57.440
later confirmed to be Laura's. Sitting nearby was a bottle

526
00:27:57.440 --> 00:27:59.799
of diet coke with another one of her prints on it,

527
00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:03.279
a casual, everyday item that would soon link her directly

528
00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:07.039
to a recent trip to Walmart. In the darkened basement,

529
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:12.119
with the lights extinguished, investigators sprayed luminol across the floors, walls,

530
00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:16.160
and the storage containers. Despite Laura's best efforts to scrub

531
00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:18.680
away the evidence, the room began to glow with an

532
00:28:18.759 --> 00:28:23.039
eerie neon blue light. It didn't just reveal the blood

533
00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:26.039
they'd miss cleaning, It revealed the very path of the

534
00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:29.920
clean up. Because bleach and blood both react to the spray,

535
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:33.160
the luminol created a glowing map of every swipe of

536
00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:36.319
a cloth and every stroke of a mop, The tiny

537
00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:39.119
specks of blood on the shelving and storage bins, which

538
00:28:39.160 --> 00:28:42.279
looked like nothing in the daylight suddenly announced themselves in

539
00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:45.880
the dark. It was a visual confirmation that, no matter

540
00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:48.839
how much bleach had been used, the basement was still

541
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:52.000
holding out of the secrets of what had happened to Craig.

542
00:28:53.319 --> 00:28:57.200
Investigators pieced together the timeline of Craig's murder during the

543
00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:01.200
early morning hours of July twentieth, twenty sixteen. They believed

544
00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:06.079
four people Laura, her boyfriend PJ, and her sons Colin

545
00:29:06.119 --> 00:29:10.519
and Alex, arrived sometime after midnight. Then somehow they lured

546
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:12.559
Craig into the basement and hit him in the face

547
00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:16.480
with a hammer or possibly an iron, fracturing his cheekbone.

548
00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:20.200
A homemade garrot fashioned from duct tape and nylon rope

549
00:29:20.440 --> 00:29:23.960
was wrapped around his neck tightly to strangle him. The

550
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:28.200
garrot was so effective it ruptured Craig's carotid artery, causing

551
00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:32.119
the substantial blood spatter throughout the room and onto the

552
00:29:32.200 --> 00:29:33.200
murderer's clothing.

553
00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:34.440
Oh boy, that's horrible.

554
00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:38.240
The murderers weren't expecting such a bloody crime scene. They

555
00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:40.920
hastily cleaned up all the blood and wrapped crag and

556
00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:43.640
the tarp. It would have been a group effort to

557
00:29:43.640 --> 00:29:45.920
get Craig at six feet tall and over two hundred

558
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:48.079
pounds upstairs and into the back of his van.

559
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:51.000
I was wondering why if the murder weapon was a grot,

560
00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:53.240
there was so much blood at the scene. That's really

561
00:29:53.319 --> 00:29:54.799
horrible to imagine that.

562
00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:58.519
Yeah, it's chilling to think about how much pressure must

563
00:29:58.559 --> 00:29:59.440
have been applied to that.

564
00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:00.000
Yeah.

565
00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:04.359
Investigators rounded up footage from six different traffic cameras that

566
00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:09.599
showed Craig's minivan and Pj's car, or cars matching their descriptions,

567
00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:13.559
traveling together for fifty miles from Craig's townhouse to a

568
00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:17.359
rural farming area near Jerusalem, New York and Yates County.

569
00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:21.720
A search warrant was also executed on pj's house, and

570
00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:26.920
McKee fob to Craig's minivan was found in his bedroom. Also,

571
00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:30.200
when they were executing the search warrant at Pj's house,

572
00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:35.559
his nineteen year old son had pornographic images on his

573
00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:39.240
computer and he was arrested underage.

574
00:30:38.680 --> 00:30:41.319
Of children disturbing in the.

575
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:44.519
Stillness of the night. At three fifteen am on July twentieth,

576
00:30:44.599 --> 00:30:47.920
a silent, ghostly ping from the cell phone and Craig

577
00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:51.440
right out's pocket tracked his final departure from his home.

578
00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:56.000
Investigators believe he had been killed sometime between twelve thirty

579
00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:59.519
and three am, and remember his BlackBerry had been stolen

580
00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:04.680
and his sister had bought him this track phone. Ninety

581
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:07.240
minutes later, the farmer spot of the two vehicles on

582
00:31:07.279 --> 00:31:09.920
the road in front of his farm. After sunrise, he

583
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:13.480
found Craig's body wrapped in the tarp, abandoned in the woods.

584
00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:16.759
As the police were examining the body, a cell phone

585
00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:20.960
began ringing from inside his pocket. Hours later, Robin Drew,

586
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:24.119
Craig's sister would report him missing. It would take a

587
00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:26.759
few more days for dental records to confirm what the

588
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:31.000
investigators already suspected. The man in the brown tarp was

589
00:31:31.079 --> 00:31:35.319
Craig ride Out. On July twenty sixth, twenty sixteen, nearly

590
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:38.680
a week after his murder, Craig's missing gray twenty ten

591
00:31:38.759 --> 00:31:43.480
Honda Odyssey minivan was found at Bushnell's Basin parkin ride

592
00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:46.839
Lot in the town of Parrenton, New York, about ten

593
00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:51.279
minutes from Craig's home. The farmer identified the minivan as

594
00:31:51.319 --> 00:31:54.440
the same one that he'd seen in front of his farm.

595
00:31:54.759 --> 00:31:57.519
Do we know what their purpose was in leaving his

596
00:31:57.640 --> 00:31:59.559
fan at this parking ride.

597
00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:02.440
Trying to make it look like he would he split town. Okay,

598
00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:05.920
I've had enough of this custardy stuff. I'm just we

599
00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:08.599
could have abandoned my two young children and I'm going

600
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:08.920
to leave.

601
00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:12.799
Yeah, that would make perfect sense, right. The medical examiner

602
00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:15.799
ruled the cause of death to be asphyxiation by a

603
00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:19.920
ligature furrow completely encircling the neck and a fracture of

604
00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:23.240
the hyoid bone, along with blunt force trauma to the

605
00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:27.640
head and a fractured cheekbone. Craig also had cuts to

606
00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:31.960
his face, forehead, and back. The manner of death was homicide.

607
00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:35.759
A lot of those wounds were defensive wounds. It looked

608
00:32:35.799 --> 00:32:37.839
like Craig really did fight back.

609
00:32:37.960 --> 00:32:42.240
Yeah. The day after Craig's murder, Colin twenty two and

610
00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:46.279
Alex Ride Out eighteen were spotted by a local resident

611
00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:50.880
dumping bags of trash in Monroe County at Mendon Ponds Park,

612
00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:55.839
near the geographical feature known as the Devil's Bathtub. A

613
00:32:55.880 --> 00:32:58.000
woman called nine to one one when she saw what

614
00:32:58.119 --> 00:33:03.720
she described as suspicious men wearing surgical gloves. When police arrived,

615
00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:07.519
one bag containing bottles of drain cleaner was still floating

616
00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:10.400
on top of the pond. The two young men were

617
00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:15.279
preparing to dump additional bags. Police stopped and questioned them.

618
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:18.720
The officer got out his phone and recorded the conversation.

619
00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:22.119
They told the police that their mom asked them to

620
00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:24.960
dump the trash. They didn't know what was in the bags.

621
00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:29.680
By then, unbeknownst to Colin and Alex, Craig's body had

622
00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:35.519
been recovered, although he remained unidentified. Alex nervously told police

623
00:33:35.559 --> 00:33:38.119
that he never got in trouble and was going away

624
00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:41.920
to college the next year. When asked where their father was,

625
00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:46.319
Colin said, I've been kind of worried about him. Alex added,

626
00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:48.960
I figured he was on the next flight to Mexico.

627
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:52.160
Here's a clip. So what's going on?

628
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:55.680
Is your brother off for a walk the basic pru

629
00:33:55.799 --> 00:33:58.559
That's I mean, we were just like out and then

630
00:33:58.599 --> 00:34:02.480
suddenly people show up and it's like, well, that's I've

631
00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:05.319
never really encountered police before, So it was like.

632
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:07.720
In trouble before.

633
00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:10.800
Right, No, I don't really do drugs or drink or

634
00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:14.880
the party. I've only I'm nineteen, I'm doing college.

635
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:15.320
Next to you.

636
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:18.280
Have you heard the dough a lot.

637
00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:21.360
Well, I emailed him last night, I didn't hear from him.

638
00:34:21.480 --> 00:34:24.280
I heard from him Monday, and he picked up my

639
00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:27.400
brother and sister. I think tuesday. I've been kind of

640
00:34:27.400 --> 00:34:30.360
worried about him. Her like stuff's just been freaking me

641
00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:32.800
out because he'd always you know, he'd always threaten you know, Oh,

642
00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:35.920
I'd just weird. But I figured he was on the

643
00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:37.079
next flight to Mexico.

644
00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:39.159
So it's just it's.

645
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:41.360
Something my mom told me, like, Hey, you not to

646
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:43.840
her mom till you'll be better. It was this morning.

647
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:45.960
Did she give you the bag?

648
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:48.519
Yeah, I'm worried about.

649
00:34:48.280 --> 00:34:50.360
What you're I'm married, and I to you tell me

650
00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:52.199
what's your neighborry before she's in there.

651
00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:54.559
Bery it'll be better for you, you know.

652
00:34:54.880 --> 00:34:56.599
I don't know what's what's in the bag.

653
00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:00.239
Colin then admitted, well, there was a lot out of

654
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:02.800
blood in the basement. I was worried that something had

655
00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:05.760
happened which placed him at the scene of the crime.

656
00:35:06.599 --> 00:35:09.840
Because they were not read their miranda rights, this conversation

657
00:35:10.039 --> 00:35:13.679
could not later be played in court. Colin and Alex

658
00:35:13.719 --> 00:35:17.360
were arrested for tampering with evidence, as was their mother, Laura.

659
00:35:17.559 --> 00:35:22.079
Forty five later that day, All three posted twenty five

660
00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:25.800
thousand dollars bail. No one was charged with murder, but

661
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:30.119
the arrests of Laura, Colin, and Alex sent shockwaves through

662
00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:34.239
the community. To their friends, the idea that these two quiet,

663
00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:38.679
helpful young men participated in a gruesome murder felt like

664
00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:43.440
a tragic misunderstanding. Their friends launched to go fundme campaign

665
00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:46.800
to fund their legal defense, determined to save them from

666
00:35:46.840 --> 00:35:50.719
what they believed was an unjust prosecution. It was a

667
00:35:50.760 --> 00:35:54.159
testament to how effectively the brothers and the family as

668
00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:58.119
a whole had maintained a facade of normalcy even as

669
00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:01.119
their home life was spiraling into a very dark place.

670
00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:06.239
A former classmate told The Democrat and Chronicle quote, I

671
00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:09.119
totally think they're innocent. I don't think they had anything

672
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:12.679
to do with the death at all. Another classmate described

673
00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:16.119
them as crazy, smart, and huge nerds who liked to

674
00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:19.280
play board games. Alex had been forced to put his

675
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:23.079
college plans on hold because neither he nor his parents

676
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:27.159
could afford it. The contents of the bags were disturbing,

677
00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:32.159
several pairs of bloody clothing and gloves. Later, the clothing

678
00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:35.840
was identified to be from Laura. Alex and Colin, but

679
00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:39.159
DNA from PJ was also on some of the items.

680
00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:43.239
The clothing from Colin and Laura was especially bloody.

681
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:47.559
Colin and Alex and Laura are not the best criminals.

682
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:52.159
They're taking these bags of incriminating evidence, full of their DNA,

683
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:55.920
and they're throwing it into this Devil's bathtub in broad daylight.

684
00:36:56.760 --> 00:37:00.599
The Devil's Bathtub is a deep bowl shaped glacier kettle

685
00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:04.920
hole set within a steep sided basin in Mendon Ponds Park.

686
00:37:05.480 --> 00:37:08.039
It's about fifty feet deep and one hundred and fifty

687
00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:12.559
feet wide. Its dark, teacolored waters are shielded by high

688
00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:17.440
ridges and thick forest, creating a stagnant, oxygen poor environment

689
00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:22.000
where the water layers never mix. This secluded, murky pond

690
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:26.000
became a focal point of the investigation after Colin and

691
00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:30.039
Alex were seen tossing a bag into its depths. Police

692
00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:33.760
divers later plunged into the sediment filled basin to recover

693
00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:39.039
incriminating bottles of liquid, lightning drain opener, and acid used

694
00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:43.199
to disfigure Craig's body. Colin and Alex likely chose the

695
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:48.360
Devil's Bathtub for its reputation as a bottomless pit. However,

696
00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:51.559
the lack of oxygen and current meant that when divers

697
00:37:51.559 --> 00:37:54.679
went in, they didn't find a scattered mess of debris.

698
00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:58.760
They found the incriminating evidence exactly where it had been tossed,

699
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:02.800
relatively well preserved and ready for the lab. There are

700
00:38:02.840 --> 00:38:06.519
other pools of water called Devil's bathtubs, but this one

701
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:09.760
is definitely an outlier. It's the only one that is

702
00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:14.199
a stagnant, dead pond rather than a flowing stream or waterfall.

703
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:18.440
The dateline episode on this case is called the Devil's Bathroom.

704
00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:18.679
Uh.

705
00:38:19.400 --> 00:38:22.519
I just thought this was really interesting, this geological formation.

706
00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:25.079
Yeah, I mean it seems like it would be actually

707
00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:27.719
not a bad place to height evidence if they did

708
00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:30.360
it at night when there weren't any people around.

709
00:38:30.559 --> 00:38:32.559
Maybe, but it is kind of a stagnant pond and

710
00:38:32.599 --> 00:38:36.199
they're throwing empty bottles away. Yeah, don't you think empty

711
00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:37.320
bottles would float?

712
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:42.480
For sure? Monroe County Sheriff Patrick O'Flynn called Craig's murder

713
00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:45.360
the most heinous crime he had dealt with in his

714
00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:49.920
thirty year career. Quote, it's so sad because the suspects,

715
00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:53.440
you see them, there was zero emotion, that just says

716
00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:58.239
something about the evil in this case. As the investigation continued,

717
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:02.119
law enforcement discovered three separate trips to Walmart by the

718
00:39:02.199 --> 00:39:06.760
ride Out family to purchase supplies for Craig's murder. Colin

719
00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:10.599
was captured in Masaden, New York, on Walmart's surveillance camera,

720
00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:14.760
paying cash for two bottles of drain cleaner on July eighteenth,

721
00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:18.880
two days before his father's murder. Laura and one of

722
00:39:18.920 --> 00:39:23.440
her daughters accompanied him. On July twentieth, around ten pm,

723
00:39:23.559 --> 00:39:26.599
Laura and PJ were captured on surveillance cameras at the

724
00:39:26.679 --> 00:39:31.519
Rochester Walmart, just hours before Craig was likely murdered. A

725
00:39:31.559 --> 00:39:35.800
twenty four foot brown tarp bungee cords, three additional bottles

726
00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:39.480
of drain cleaner, one bottle of diet coke, and a

727
00:39:39.519 --> 00:39:41.400
can of bug spray was purchased.

728
00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:45.920
The surveillance footage at Walmart has gotten really good. Yeah,

729
00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:48.320
the images, and this was in twenty sixteen, so this

730
00:39:48.440 --> 00:39:52.639
was ten years ago, but still they're very clear. Really yeah,

731
00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:56.159
never forget you are on camera. I'm not sure how

732
00:39:56.559 --> 00:39:59.119
long Walmart keeps their videos for. We've had a lot

733
00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:03.039
of cases where something has gone down at a Walmart

734
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:06.960
but in the video they're looking at the drain cleaner.

735
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:09.679
I think in Pj's like points to his face and

736
00:40:09.719 --> 00:40:13.000
he looks upset. Maybe he's like, oh, I don't think

737
00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:16.280
this needs to be done. And Laura is talking to

738
00:40:16.360 --> 00:40:18.719
him and then she pats him on the back reassuringly.

739
00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:19.519
Oh boy.

740
00:40:19.800 --> 00:40:20.000
Yeah.

741
00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:24.119
They walk away, and later that night, just after midnight,

742
00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:27.800
Colin entered the Massaden walmart again to purchase a shovel

743
00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:31.440
and four pairs of work gloves. A four door sedan

744
00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:34.599
dropped him off at the entrance. There appeared to be

745
00:40:34.639 --> 00:40:37.360
three other people in the car, believed to be Laura,

746
00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:41.639
Alex and PJ. Colin was wearing jeans and a dark

747
00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:45.199
colored long sleeved T shirt. They appeared to be the

748
00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:47.800
same items of clothing that were later found in the

749
00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:52.360
trash bag covered with blood. PJ fifty was arrested on

750
00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:56.800
September sixth, twenty sixteen. He was the fourth person charged

751
00:40:56.880 --> 00:41:00.960
with tampering with evidence. He posted bail and was released

752
00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:04.320
from jail. None of the four suspects had been charged

753
00:41:04.360 --> 00:41:09.239
with murder, and all remained free on bail. After Pj's arrest,

754
00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:11.920
people began wondering if he had something to do with

755
00:41:12.039 --> 00:41:16.599
the recent death of his wife, Jennifer Shanahan Tucci forty four.

756
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:21.039
The county considered exuming her body, but the medical examiner

757
00:41:21.079 --> 00:41:24.639
stood firm that liver disease was her cause of death,

758
00:41:25.239 --> 00:41:27.480
but some pointed to this as a sign that she

759
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:32.519
had possibly been poisoned. After questions of Pj's involvement lingered

760
00:41:32.519 --> 00:41:35.800
in the community, her family made the painful decision to

761
00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:40.920
release a statement regarding Jennifer's years long struggles with alcoholism.

762
00:41:41.800 --> 00:41:44.800
A statement from her family read, while we have kept

763
00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:48.119
these private details from the public, we feel the surge

764
00:41:48.119 --> 00:41:52.280
of speculation must be addressed. Jennifer's death in August of

765
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:57.480
twenty fourteen was the result of liver disease from battling alcoholism.

766
00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:00.079
She is one of the eighty eight thousand people in

767
00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:03.400
this country who lose their long fought battle with alcohol

768
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:07.239
each year. The statement went on to highlight Jennifer's work

769
00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:12.239
in the community, quote, she tirelessly promoted Roman Catholic schools

770
00:42:12.599 --> 00:42:15.719
and provided many meals to those who were sick, as

771
00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:19.639
well as bereaved families. It's so sad that they had

772
00:42:19.719 --> 00:42:21.519
that they needed to issue this statement.

773
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:24.840
Yeah, I'm almost surprised that they came to Pj's defense

774
00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:26.840
because he moved on so quickly.

775
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:28.840
Yeah, I can see that too.

776
00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:39.639
We'll be back after a break. In December twenty sixteen,

777
00:42:39.800 --> 00:42:44.199
a grand jury indicted Laura forty five, PJ fifty, Colin

778
00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:48.719
twenty three, and Alex nineteen on charges of second degree

779
00:42:48.800 --> 00:42:53.360
murder and tampering with evidence. Laura was also charged with burglary.

780
00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:57.920
While the crime was clearly premeditated given the Walmart trips

781
00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:00.639
for the items used during the murder, it didn't meet

782
00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:04.000
the technical legal criteria for first degree murder in New

783
00:43:04.079 --> 00:43:07.840
York because there were no aggravating factors such as killing

784
00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:12.400
a police officer, murders committed during other serious felonies, or

785
00:43:13.039 --> 00:43:16.519
serial or torture killings. I think one could argue that

786
00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:19.760
this was a torture killing. Second dree murder was the

787
00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:22.960
appropriate and highest charge they could possibly pursue for an

788
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:28.039
intentional domestic murder. Colin also accused his sister of helping

789
00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:31.159
clean up the crime scene, but she was not charged.

790
00:43:32.159 --> 00:43:35.239
On his way to a court date in December, Colin

791
00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:38.320
was pulled over for driving on a suspended license and

792
00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:42.360
ticketed a knife and a twenty two caliber rifle were

793
00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:46.239
found in the vehicle. This really bothered me. We talk

794
00:43:46.320 --> 00:43:49.360
about this a lot, but once you're accused of murder

795
00:43:49.400 --> 00:43:52.239
and you're allowed to be out on bail, Yeah, I

796
00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:55.159
just feel like people are capable of, you know, a

797
00:43:55.159 --> 00:43:56.280
lot of a lot of things.

798
00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:57.199
Yeah, definitely.

799
00:43:57.920 --> 00:44:00.639
The trial opened in June twenty seventeen, and it was

800
00:44:00.679 --> 00:44:04.840
a massive undertaking. Seeing an entire family Laura, her sons

801
00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:08.360
Colin and Alex, and her boyfriend Paul Tucci all lined

802
00:44:08.440 --> 00:44:11.280
up at the defence table together was a surreal sight

803
00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:15.599
for everyone in the courtroom. Each defendant was represented by

804
00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:19.519
a different legal team. Because there were four people potentially

805
00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:23.199
involved in Craig's murder, the prosecution used a theory called

806
00:44:23.559 --> 00:44:26.880
acting in concert. This means they didn't have to prove

807
00:44:26.960 --> 00:44:30.480
exactly whose hands were on the ligature or who delivered

808
00:44:30.519 --> 00:44:33.840
the blunt force blows. They only had to prove that

809
00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:37.000
the defendants worked together with the intent to kill Craig.

810
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:40.239
As long as the jury believed Laura, PJ, Colin, and

811
00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:43.599
Alex were part of the plan and the execution, they

812
00:44:43.639 --> 00:44:46.519
were all equally guilty of the murder and the eyes

813
00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:49.960
of the law. Trying all four at the same time,

814
00:44:50.239 --> 00:44:52.039
I think that must have been hard for the jury

815
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:55.480
to keep track of the evidence and you know who

816
00:44:55.519 --> 00:44:56.719
did was Yeah.

817
00:44:56.519 --> 00:44:58.440
I would think so, although you know what you just

818
00:44:58.440 --> 00:45:01.599
said about they didn't. They didn't necessarily need to know

819
00:45:01.639 --> 00:45:03.760
exactly who it was, right, So it made it a

820
00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:06.239
little simpler. But you're right, it is pretty unusual.

821
00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:09.719
For four weeks, the courtroom was filled with the gruesome

822
00:45:09.760 --> 00:45:13.960
details of Craig's final moments, yet a mystery remained. Despite

823
00:45:13.960 --> 00:45:17.840
the mountain of evidence, prosecutors could never pinpoint exactly who

824
00:45:17.920 --> 00:45:21.960
delivered the fatal blow. The medical examiner testified that Craig

825
00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:24.639
had been strangled with the homemade garad and suffered blunt

826
00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:28.000
forest trauma, but the chaotic nature of the struggle meant

827
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:31.800
any combination of the four could have been responsible. This

828
00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:35.719
ambiguity became a focal point for the defense, who argued

829
00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:38.800
that mere presence at the house didn't equal a murder conviction.

830
00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:42.960
Jurors were tasked with untangling the specific roles each family

831
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:45.400
member played in the planning, the killing, and the cleanup.

832
00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:48.840
To do this, they waded through over six hundred exhibits,

833
00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:52.599
including surveillance footage from Walmart and the trash bags were

834
00:45:52.639 --> 00:45:56.199
covered from the devil's bathtub. The defense argued that the

835
00:45:56.239 --> 00:45:59.440
items purchased at Walmart were for the family's impending move

836
00:46:00.039 --> 00:46:02.760
the bottles of drain cleaner. While lots of girls have

837
00:46:02.920 --> 00:46:05.199
long hair in the house, and before they could sell

838
00:46:05.239 --> 00:46:08.360
the home, the drains needed to be cleared. You can

839
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:11.320
attest to that will that is true. The tarps and

840
00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:14.760
bungee cords were used to wrap up their belongings. The

841
00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:18.239
defense for all four defendants made the high stakes decision

842
00:46:18.320 --> 00:46:20.880
to rest their case without calling a single witness to

843
00:46:20.920 --> 00:46:23.880
the stand, using the rationale that the burden of proof

844
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:28.360
rested entirely on the prosecution. By staying silent, they were

845
00:46:28.360 --> 00:46:31.880
betting that the state's circumstantial evidence simply wouldn't hold up

846
00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:35.400
under the weight of reasonable doubt. It also shielded the

847
00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:39.639
family from a potentially devastating crossed examination where they would

848
00:46:39.639 --> 00:46:42.320
have been forced to answer for the Walmart footage and

849
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:45.800
the forensic evidence found in the basement. If you were

850
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:47.840
their attorneys, would you have had them testify?

851
00:46:48.159 --> 00:46:50.159
I don't know. To me, this just seems like a

852
00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:53.679
lost cause no matter what you do, so because the

853
00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:56.199
evidence is it just seems pretty overwhelming.

854
00:46:56.880 --> 00:47:00.360
During deliberations, the jurors requested to see the sweatpants that

855
00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:03.599
Alex had been wearing. They seemed to be conflicted to

856
00:47:03.800 --> 00:47:08.199
his level of involvement in the crime. The jury deliberated

857
00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:10.800
for four and a half days before coming to a

858
00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:15.440
mixed verdict. One person walked away free, one person was

859
00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:18.679
convicted of two counts of tampering with evidence, and two

860
00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:21.760
were convicted of second degree murder. Okay, look at me,

861
00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:25.039
eyes on me. Who do you think walked away free?

862
00:47:25.400 --> 00:47:28.400
I really don't know. I guess maybe Alex, like maybe

863
00:47:28.440 --> 00:47:29.039
the youngest.

864
00:47:29.239 --> 00:47:32.039
Wrong. Who do you think was convicted of murder?

865
00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:34.840
I don't know? Apparently don't. I don't know any.

866
00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:40.559
Hey, Laura and and Colin were convicted of murder. Oh okay,

867
00:47:41.480 --> 00:47:44.760
Alex was convicted of two counts of tampering with evidence,

868
00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:48.800
and PJ was acquitted. Really after the verdict was read,

869
00:47:48.920 --> 00:47:53.280
Robin Drew, Craig's sister told MPR station w XXI, I

870
00:47:53.320 --> 00:47:55.880
am very pleased that we have a verdict and there

871
00:47:55.880 --> 00:47:58.679
has been some justice for my brother. We'll never get

872
00:47:58.719 --> 00:48:01.679
them back, but we have some answers. It's still beyond

873
00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:04.880
my comprehension that they thought this was the only way out.

874
00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:09.559
The ends didn't justify the means. They are all paying

875
00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:13.360
such a steep prices. Craig's mother was there for the

876
00:48:13.400 --> 00:48:16.440
reading of the verdict as well. She was quote pleased

877
00:48:16.440 --> 00:48:20.199
to have justice for him, but had complicated feelings about

878
00:48:20.199 --> 00:48:24.519
two of her grandsons being sentenced. Sadly, I think that

879
00:48:24.679 --> 00:48:28.840
after Craig's murder Nessie and Robin didn't have our relationship

880
00:48:28.840 --> 00:48:32.599
with any of the grandkids anymore. Somewhere along the way,

881
00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:36.480
Colin had proposed to his high school sweetheart Chelsea. She

882
00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:39.800
told Datelines she believed in his innocence quote, He's a

883
00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:42.199
smart guy, so no, I don't think he would ever

884
00:48:42.239 --> 00:48:45.360
put himself in that situation. He had a life ahead

885
00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:49.239
of him, He had no need. She was heavily featured

886
00:48:49.320 --> 00:48:52.840
in the Dateline episode, as was PJ. So it's definitely

887
00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:55.559
worth a watch and its linked in our show notes.

888
00:48:56.480 --> 00:48:59.119
After spending three and a half years in prison, Alex

889
00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:03.280
was released twenty one. At his first parole hearing, his

890
00:49:03.320 --> 00:49:06.039
family members opposed his release and it was denied, But

891
00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:08.679
when after his release, he said that he wanted to

892
00:49:08.719 --> 00:49:12.400
go back to college and become a history professor, I

893
00:49:12.440 --> 00:49:14.880
don't have any updates on him.

894
00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:17.840
And remind me what was he convicted of?

895
00:49:18.199 --> 00:49:20.280
Two counts of tampering with evidence?

896
00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:20.639
Okay?

897
00:49:21.239 --> 00:49:24.440
So PJ sold his house and moved closer to Laura's

898
00:49:24.440 --> 00:49:28.519
prison and visits her every other day. He remains steadfast

899
00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:31.199
that she and her sons are innocent. He said he

900
00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:35.400
knows where everyone involved was on the night of Craig's murder. Quote,

901
00:49:35.960 --> 00:49:38.119
my life is on hold. I made a choice to

902
00:49:38.159 --> 00:49:41.039
be close to Laura because I still have hope. It's

903
00:49:41.079 --> 00:49:43.079
hard when you know in your heart that someone has

904
00:49:43.079 --> 00:49:47.320
been wrongfully incarcerated for that long. It's lonely at night.

905
00:49:48.400 --> 00:49:52.079
In a more recent interview, Tousi told The Democrat and Chronicle,

906
00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:56.239
we still don't know who killed the guy. Laura still smiles.

907
00:49:56.440 --> 00:49:59.519
She misses her kids. P J knows that Laura may

908
00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:02.280
never get up of prison. Quote how long do you

909
00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:05.039
wait for someone? I'll never turn my back on her

910
00:50:05.239 --> 00:50:10.079
or those kids. Hopefully we see a sunset together. Laura

911
00:50:10.119 --> 00:50:13.519
works with the Puppies Behind Bars program, training service dogs

912
00:50:13.519 --> 00:50:18.400
for wounded war veterans and explosive detection canines for law enforcement.

913
00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:21.639
I hope those dogs bite her ass every day.

914
00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:23.519
You know, I was gonna say, working with dogs sounds

915
00:50:23.559 --> 00:50:26.159
like such a sweet thing, and I don't like that

916
00:50:26.239 --> 00:50:26.559
for her.

917
00:50:26.800 --> 00:50:29.639
Well, I really like they say, dogs, you know, can

918
00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:32.119
tell if you're a good purse or us. Yeah, all

919
00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:34.599
of Laura's appeals have been denied, and she won't be

920
00:50:34.639 --> 00:50:37.679
eligible for parole until twenty fifty five, when she is

921
00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:41.880
eighty three years old. In an interview with NBC News ten,

922
00:50:42.039 --> 00:50:45.719
Colin Wright out spoke about his father, quote, I did

923
00:50:45.800 --> 00:50:48.679
not respect or admire the man, but he was likable.

924
00:50:49.079 --> 00:50:52.119
I could have enjoyable conversations with him, and we could

925
00:50:52.119 --> 00:50:54.840
talk about history, or economics or philosophy. But at a

926
00:50:54.840 --> 00:50:58.119
certain point I felt it was irresponsible of me to

927
00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:01.519
separate that from his personal coin. It was not a

928
00:51:01.519 --> 00:51:04.400
good environment and not what I thought that children should

929
00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:08.760
be in. Although Colin admitted he never witnessed any abusive

930
00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:11.480
behavior by his father, when asked if he thought his

931
00:51:11.559 --> 00:51:15.559
mother was capable of murder, he answered no, but only

932
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:19.760
because I didn't see her as very capable in general. Honestly,

933
00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:22.239
she was kind of someone I felt responsible for in

934
00:51:22.239 --> 00:51:25.079
that sense that if you didn't keep track of her,

935
00:51:25.159 --> 00:51:27.880
she would miss appointments, she would be late for things.

936
00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:32.079
Colin maintains his innocence, although he admits that he did

937
00:51:32.119 --> 00:51:35.039
clean up the crime scene. He hasn't spoken to his

938
00:51:35.079 --> 00:51:38.039
mother in years, but claims she set him up. He

939
00:51:38.079 --> 00:51:40.079
pointed to the shovel that was left of the crime

940
00:51:40.119 --> 00:51:43.199
scene that he'd been purchasing at Walmart as proof that

941
00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:47.079
he was framed. Quote. The thing that angered me most

942
00:51:47.119 --> 00:51:50.679
was her unwillingness to take any kind of responsibility, because

943
00:51:50.719 --> 00:51:53.199
whenever I would talk to her, she would she would be, Oh,

944
00:51:53.199 --> 00:51:56.360
I'm so sorry, this is happening. It's like, no, this

945
00:51:56.480 --> 00:52:00.639
isn't just happening. She did this. Colin never gave an

946
00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:04.000
alternate explanation or alibi for the night of Craig's murder.

947
00:52:04.239 --> 00:52:07.840
So Colin is saying here that his mother killed his dad,

948
00:52:08.519 --> 00:52:10.239
and he's admitting that he cleaned. He helped.

949
00:52:10.280 --> 00:52:11.920
Yeah, that was his only involvement.

950
00:52:11.960 --> 00:52:12.880
Okay, Yeah.

951
00:52:13.239 --> 00:52:16.079
Colin is housed at Attica State Prison, which they say

952
00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:18.719
is one of the hardest prisons. He works in the

953
00:52:18.800 --> 00:52:22.239
law library. He's taking college college classes and learning German.

954
00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:25.480
He'll be eligible for parole in twenty forty three, when

955
00:52:25.519 --> 00:52:28.199
he's fifty years old. I think he's thirty two now

956
00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:32.360
and Laura's appeal. Her attorney wrote, quote, this is not

957
00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:35.800
the plan of a reasonable, intelligent adult. This is more

958
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:39.880
indicative of impetuous violence by sons who thought they were

959
00:52:39.880 --> 00:52:43.440
helping their siblings escape an abusive father, followed by a

960
00:52:43.480 --> 00:52:46.400
slap dash attempt to cover up their crime.

961
00:52:46.519 --> 00:52:49.360
Wow, so she's playing the finger at her kids.

962
00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:51.719
It's just astounding to me.

963
00:52:52.119 --> 00:52:52.400
Yeah.

964
00:52:53.159 --> 00:52:56.760
After the convictions, the write Out family released his statement, quote,

965
00:52:56.800 --> 00:52:59.480
our family appreciates the support of our friends and the

966
00:52:59.480 --> 00:53:02.760
community during this difficult time. We are mourning the loss

967
00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:05.440
of a devoted father, son, and brother who is always

968
00:53:05.480 --> 00:53:07.960
ready with a smile or a joke. While there have

969
00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:11.679
been negative comments made against Craig's character, I asked that

970
00:53:11.719 --> 00:53:15.239
you consider his life of generosity, but before believing them.

971
00:53:15.760 --> 00:53:19.400
Through his work with the ministries and youth mentorship, Craig

972
00:53:19.480 --> 00:53:22.079
touched many lives and the stories shared by his friends

973
00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:25.000
and co workers are a testament to the loving person

974
00:53:25.039 --> 00:53:27.960
he truly was. He will be missed by all who

975
00:53:28.039 --> 00:53:31.760
knew him. Craig write Out loved to laugh, spend time

976
00:53:31.800 --> 00:53:34.400
with his children and mentor young people. He was an

977
00:53:34.440 --> 00:53:37.239
act of volunteer in his community, working with cub Scouts,

978
00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:42.000
local ministries, and the Catholic youth groups Rest in Peace Craig.

979
00:53:43.039 --> 00:53:47.800
Parental alienation is a damaging process, often during high conflict divorce,

980
00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:52.519
where one parent manipulates a child or children to fear, distrust,

981
00:53:52.719 --> 00:53:57.360
or reject the other parent without justification. It involves, among

982
00:53:57.400 --> 00:54:01.880
other behaviors, bad mouthing the targeted pain, limiting contact, and

983
00:54:01.960 --> 00:54:05.800
forcing the child to choose sides, resulting in severe emotional

984
00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:08.840
harm to the child and a broken parent child bond.

985
00:54:09.400 --> 00:54:13.880
It can have devastating effects on the child, leading to anxiety, depression,

986
00:54:14.119 --> 00:54:19.320
lowered self esteem, substance abuse disorder, and decrease academic performance.

987
00:54:19.559 --> 00:54:23.239
According to a study done by Colorado State University, there

988
00:54:23.280 --> 00:54:26.480
is no documented evidence of a verbal or physical abuse

989
00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:29.719
by Craig write Out. Instead, he was widely described as

990
00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:33.440
a gentle, quiet and devoted father. Prosecutors argued that the

991
00:54:33.480 --> 00:54:37.480
crime was fueled by a systemic campaign of parental alienation,

992
00:54:37.880 --> 00:54:41.400
orchestrated by Laura write Out, who used the bitter divorce

993
00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:45.039
and custody battle to destroy the children's relationship with their

994
00:54:45.079 --> 00:54:49.079
father By framing Craig as a legal adversary intent on

995
00:54:49.199 --> 00:54:53.280
ruining the family, Laura and Paul Tucci fostered a toxic

996
00:54:53.440 --> 00:54:56.679
us versus Hymn mentality that he humanized Craig to the

997
00:54:56.719 --> 00:54:59.679
point where the other children viewed him as an obstacle

998
00:54:59.719 --> 00:55:03.639
rether than a parent. This deep emotional enmeshment explains how

999
00:55:03.679 --> 00:55:07.119
Colin and Alex could participate in such a gruesome murder

1000
00:55:07.159 --> 00:55:09.800
and cleanup as the bond with their father had been

1001
00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:13.840
completely severed. While the older sons work to dispose of

1002
00:55:13.880 --> 00:55:17.719
the body, the younger children remain in Craig's home, unaware

1003
00:55:17.719 --> 00:55:21.039
of his fate until his sister eventually reported him missing

1004
00:55:21.079 --> 00:55:24.679
to the authorities. That's one of the things I can't

1005
00:55:24.719 --> 00:55:27.239
get over in this case, that they would actually kill

1006
00:55:27.880 --> 00:55:30.079
while the little ones were asleep in that house.

1007
00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:31.760
It's a lot of things I can't get over, but yeah,

1008
00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:34.320
that is certainly one of the more disturbing aspects of it.

1009
00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:37.760
If you are going through a divorce or separation, I think,

1010
00:55:38.400 --> 00:55:40.159
truly the best thing that you can do for your

1011
00:55:40.239 --> 00:55:43.679
kids is never hear an unkind word come out of

1012
00:55:43.679 --> 00:55:47.239
your mouth about the other parent. I know that comes

1013
00:55:47.280 --> 00:55:50.400
from a place of privilege because I've never been divorced, but.

1014
00:55:50.599 --> 00:55:53.079
It's easier said than done. But yeah, it's just it's the.

1015
00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:55.039
Best gift that you can give your children if you're

1016
00:55:55.079 --> 00:55:57.679
going through a divorce. Is not saying anything negative.

1017
00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:00.480
Yeah, you have to assume both parents love the children

1018
00:56:00.519 --> 00:56:03.280
and want the best for the children, and so what's

1019
00:56:03.320 --> 00:56:05.000
best for the children is not to put them in

1020
00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:07.400
a position where they're having to choose sides.

1021
00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:11.079
Some of the discussion is just my comments on this case,

1022
00:56:11.159 --> 00:56:14.320
not necessarily a question. But killing your ex husband is

1023
00:56:14.320 --> 00:56:18.920
an incredibly selfish act, But involving your children and robbing

1024
00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:22.480
them of both her father and their future is an

1025
00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:24.239
incredibly evil act.

1026
00:56:24.480 --> 00:56:26.119
Yeah, I'll say like to.

1027
00:56:26.079 --> 00:56:30.440
Have Colin and Colin especially and Alex involved to such

1028
00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:34.760
a degree. Yeah, and the other So the one brother

1029
00:56:34.960 --> 00:56:36.920
was away in the marine, so I don't know if

1030
00:56:36.920 --> 00:56:40.920
he the second brother, and then the fourth oldest of

1031
00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:45.119
she was seventeen. She allegedly helped clean up too, and

1032
00:56:45.159 --> 00:56:47.679
she went to Walmart once, so I have to believe

1033
00:56:47.719 --> 00:56:48.519
that she kind of.

1034
00:56:48.519 --> 00:56:50.639
Used to stand on the planet sounds And.

1035
00:56:50.679 --> 00:56:53.320
So at least four of the kids knew what was happening,

1036
00:56:53.400 --> 00:56:55.000
or three of the kids knew what was happening.

1037
00:56:55.039 --> 00:56:56.920
That is that is evil. I mean, there's no other

1038
00:56:56.960 --> 00:56:59.599
word for it to involve your children, and even if

1039
00:56:59.599 --> 00:57:02.559
they're a adults, I mean or close to adults, that's

1040
00:57:02.599 --> 00:57:05.360
that's just yeah, that's really disgusting.

1041
00:57:05.440 --> 00:57:09.079
Yeah, And I can't stop thinking about Craig's final moments,

1042
00:57:09.199 --> 00:57:13.079
being lured into his basement and being brutally beaten and

1043
00:57:13.159 --> 00:57:18.559
seeing your your wife, your best friend, and two of

1044
00:57:18.599 --> 00:57:19.280
your kids.

1045
00:57:19.360 --> 00:57:21.119
Yeah, what a betrayal.

1046
00:57:21.320 --> 00:57:24.760
Heartbreaking. I can't stop thinking about PJ. Do you think

1047
00:57:24.760 --> 00:57:26.679
that he got away with murder?

1048
00:57:27.239 --> 00:57:29.119
Kind of seems that way in the fact that he

1049
00:57:29.159 --> 00:57:33.360
was there buying the supplies and you mentioned, you know,

1050
00:57:33.440 --> 00:57:37.320
him talking like when they were buying the acid, him

1051
00:57:37.519 --> 00:57:40.320
motioning to his face. It just seems like he was

1052
00:57:40.360 --> 00:57:44.000
definitely at least knew what the plan was, if not

1053
00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:45.679
was directly involved in it.

1054
00:57:46.280 --> 00:57:51.119
And he must have incredible guilt because he's he was acquitted.

1055
00:57:51.119 --> 00:57:54.280
And you know, you should have incredible guilt. It surprised

1056
00:57:54.320 --> 00:57:57.199
me when you said that he still visits Laura every

1057
00:57:57.199 --> 00:57:58.679
other day in prison.

1058
00:57:58.480 --> 00:58:01.920
So maybe he does that to keep her from exactly

1059
00:58:02.320 --> 00:58:05.239
I do think because he was featured heavily in the

1060
00:58:05.320 --> 00:58:09.639
Dayline episode, I believe that he is fearful that he

1061
00:58:09.679 --> 00:58:11.000
could still be prosecuted.

1062
00:58:11.119 --> 00:58:13.519
Well, he can't be tried again under double jeopardy laws

1063
00:58:13.559 --> 00:58:16.320
unless they could find something else to charge him with.

1064
00:58:16.679 --> 00:58:18.039
Definitely charge him with something.

1065
00:58:17.840 --> 00:58:20.679
But yeah, he probably is very scared and wants to

1066
00:58:20.800 --> 00:58:22.840
keep Laura as happy as possible.

1067
00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:25.679
It bothered me that it seems like no one in

1068
00:58:25.719 --> 00:58:27.440
his case had remorse.

1069
00:58:28.119 --> 00:58:31.239
Yeah, that's just another disturbing aspect of this case that

1070
00:58:31.400 --> 00:58:34.440
I mean, it's disturbing to me that four people would

1071
00:58:34.519 --> 00:58:38.239
be involved in killing anyone and not one of them

1072
00:58:38.280 --> 00:58:42.039
would say this is wrong, we shouldn't be doing this.

1073
00:58:42.599 --> 00:58:44.639
But the fact that none of them seem to have

1074
00:58:44.679 --> 00:58:47.719
any remorse and now they're all pointing fingers at each other,

1075
00:58:47.840 --> 00:58:49.599
or some of them or pointing fingers at each other,

1076
00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:53.679
it's just Yeah, the whole thing is really just disgusting.

1077
00:58:54.440 --> 00:58:57.800
PJ accuses the police of not pursuing any other suspects.

1078
00:58:58.360 --> 00:59:02.239
Do you think that they're sometimes I forgot to ask that.

1079
00:59:02.440 --> 00:59:04.719
Do you feel like these people were all involved in

1080
00:59:04.760 --> 00:59:05.920
the murder of Craig Right?

1081
00:59:06.039 --> 00:59:08.000
It seems very very clear to me that they were

1082
00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:10.199
all involved in the murder one way or another. And

1083
00:59:10.239 --> 00:59:13.760
sometimes police don't pursue another suspect because they find the

1084
00:59:13.840 --> 00:59:17.599
right ones really quickly, and there's enough evidence that it

1085
00:59:17.639 --> 00:59:19.840
doesn't make sense that anyone else was involved.

1086
00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:22.920
I saw a quote from an investigator that said this

1087
00:59:23.079 --> 00:59:26.800
was almost the perfect crime, and I was like, really, it.

1088
00:59:26.719 --> 00:59:28.440
Doesn't even sound remotely close.

1089
00:59:28.559 --> 00:59:32.159
Well, he had the cell phone not been in Craig's pockets.

1090
00:59:32.480 --> 00:59:34.079
Had they not been seen.

1091
00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:36.519
Something the body got it by the farmer.

1092
00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:41.400
Had they not been seen dumping the evidence in this lake.

1093
00:59:42.320 --> 00:59:46.599
But it would have been perfect, perfect if there wasn't

1094
00:59:46.639 --> 00:59:49.800
blood all over and fingerprints from Laura on the diet.

1095
00:59:49.880 --> 00:59:53.519
Well, you know, had the garage worked and you know

1096
00:59:53.519 --> 00:59:56.719
they wouldn't have ruptured his karate artery, there would have

1097
00:59:56.760 --> 00:59:57.480
been less right.

1098
00:59:57.719 --> 00:59:59.599
But if I was going to call something the perfect crime,

1099
00:59:59.639 --> 01:00:02.400
I would say that none of those things, all those

1100
01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:05.800
things would have been planned for and accounted for.

1101
01:00:06.119 --> 01:00:08.800
The acid on the face is really disturbing to me too.

1102
01:00:08.920 --> 01:00:12.039
I think that's just symbolic of, you know, hatred that

1103
01:00:12.079 --> 01:00:12.880
they had for him.

1104
01:00:13.079 --> 01:00:16.400
Do we know if that was done at his house

1105
01:00:16.519 --> 01:00:18.360
or if it was done after they took.

1106
01:00:18.119 --> 01:00:21.000
His wondering about that, but they must have done it

1107
01:00:21.039 --> 01:00:23.199
while he was at the house. But you would think

1108
01:00:23.199 --> 01:00:27.519
that it would have eaten through the floor and I

1109
01:00:27.519 --> 01:00:29.119
don't know, I really don't want to think about it.

1110
01:00:29.239 --> 01:00:30.320
Oh, it's really horrible.

1111
01:00:31.159 --> 01:00:34.079
Do you think that had the farmer not seen them

1112
01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:38.400
dumping Craig's body that it they might not have found him.

1113
01:00:38.639 --> 01:00:40.480
I mean, it sounds like I don't know the area

1114
01:00:40.599 --> 01:00:42.159
very well, but it sounds like it was probably a

1115
01:00:42.159 --> 01:00:45.440
fairly remote area and if they put the body, you know,

1116
01:00:45.519 --> 01:00:47.599
far into the woods, it might have taken a while

1117
01:00:47.719 --> 01:00:51.079
to find it. So yeah, it was pretty fortunate.

1118
01:00:51.119 --> 01:00:53.679
I think for me crazy how quickly he was found,

1119
01:00:53.679 --> 01:00:55.960
like within hours, and that almost never happened.

1120
01:00:56.000 --> 01:00:58.480
Yeah, that certainly helps solve a crime if you can,

1121
01:00:58.679 --> 01:01:00.679
you know, make that discovery very quickly.

1122
01:01:01.480 --> 01:01:04.199
We're kind of morbid because we have a true crime

1123
01:01:04.239 --> 01:01:06.360
podcast and when we go for walks, a lot of

1124
01:01:06.360 --> 01:01:08.599
times you'll point out, oh, that would be a good

1125
01:01:08.599 --> 01:01:11.639
place to bury a body. But I always wonder about

1126
01:01:11.760 --> 01:01:15.239
you know, wildlife and watten like turkey vultures be circling

1127
01:01:15.280 --> 01:01:16.599
ahead and things like that.

1128
01:01:16.760 --> 01:01:18.599
So yeah, I was going to say that. I think,

1129
01:01:18.679 --> 01:01:21.000
you know, if you if you hide a body in

1130
01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:23.519
the woods like that and it's not buried, then you

1131
01:01:23.559 --> 01:01:27.039
know it is going to attract attention at a certain point,

1132
01:01:27.119 --> 01:01:28.760
maybe within a couple of days.

1133
01:01:29.320 --> 01:01:32.440
Well, that is the devastating case of Craig rite Out

1134
01:01:38.639 --> 01:01:41.079
all right, before we go, I wanted to talk about

1135
01:01:41.119 --> 01:01:43.599
some not so mastermind criminals.

1136
01:01:43.760 --> 01:01:44.800
Okay.

1137
01:01:44.840 --> 01:01:47.599
In two thousand and nine, two men in Iowa were

1138
01:01:47.719 --> 01:01:51.880
arrested for an attempted burglary. They didn't have masks, so

1139
01:01:51.960 --> 01:01:54.840
they decided to improvise with something they found in the car.

1140
01:01:55.599 --> 01:01:59.599
What do you think they used to hide their identities.

1141
01:01:58.920 --> 01:02:01.960
Something they found in the car? I don't know. I

1142
01:02:01.960 --> 01:02:02.800
can't imagine.

1143
01:02:03.920 --> 01:02:08.559
Matthew McNelly and Joey Miller drew masks directly under their

1144
01:02:08.599 --> 01:02:12.440
skin with a heavy duty sharpie. It didn't hide their features,

1145
01:02:12.480 --> 01:02:16.400
but it definitely didn't watch easily when the plater found them.

1146
01:02:16.440 --> 01:02:20.320
Oh man, that is not the smartest idea.

1147
01:02:20.599 --> 01:02:24.519
MacArthur Wheeler robbed two banks in Pittsburgh and Broad Daylight

1148
01:02:24.559 --> 01:02:27.639
without a mask. When police caught him, he was shocked

1149
01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:31.920
because he believed rubbing a specific kitchen staple on his

1150
01:02:32.039 --> 01:02:36.599
face would make him invisible to surveillance cameras. What was

1151
01:02:36.639 --> 01:02:37.400
the substance?

1152
01:02:38.159 --> 01:02:41.760
Once again, I have no idea. Maybe a glass of

1153
01:02:41.800 --> 01:02:43.039
milk or something. I don't know.

1154
01:02:44.079 --> 01:02:46.360
So the man knew that lemon juice could be used

1155
01:02:46.559 --> 01:02:50.599
as invisible ink on paper, so he figured it if

1156
01:02:50.639 --> 01:02:53.000
he smeared it on his skin that he would be

1157
01:02:53.039 --> 01:02:55.519
invisible to the eyes of the camera.

1158
01:02:55.639 --> 01:02:58.559
Perfect sense, I can see that. Very smart.

1159
01:02:58.920 --> 01:03:02.480
A burglar and pencil was easily tracked down after he

1160
01:03:02.559 --> 01:03:06.199
broke into a home and stole jewelry and cash. Before

1161
01:03:06.239 --> 01:03:09.599
he left, he decided to use the victim's computer, but

1162
01:03:09.719 --> 01:03:12.880
he made one fatal error. What did he do?

1163
01:03:13.280 --> 01:03:16.440
Logged in as himself on something on Facebook?

1164
01:03:19.239 --> 01:03:22.719
Can't imagine me needing to look at my Facebook profile?

1165
01:03:22.800 --> 01:03:23.119
That bad?

1166
01:03:23.199 --> 01:03:25.199
You got to be away from your friends for that long.

1167
01:03:25.400 --> 01:03:25.440
So.

1168
01:03:26.599 --> 01:03:29.760
In nineteen eighty nine, a man in California attempted to

1169
01:03:29.840 --> 01:03:32.719
rob a bank by handing the teller a demand note.

1170
01:03:33.199 --> 01:03:36.000
The police arrived at his house before he even got

1171
01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:38.559
home because of what was printed on the back of

1172
01:03:38.639 --> 01:03:40.360
the note. What was it?

1173
01:03:40.840 --> 01:03:41.880
His address?

1174
01:03:42.559 --> 01:03:45.639
His own paycheck? He'd written the robbery note on the

1175
01:03:45.679 --> 01:03:48.719
back of his actual past up, which included his full

1176
01:03:48.800 --> 01:03:52.760
name and address. Oh man and the last one. A

1177
01:03:52.800 --> 01:03:55.079
man in Florida once called nine to one one to

1178
01:03:55.239 --> 01:03:59.280
lodge a formal complaint against a local dealer. What was

1179
01:03:59.320 --> 01:04:02.599
his specific grievance that led to his immediate arrest.

1180
01:04:03.199 --> 01:04:06.360
He bought drugs from this person, then they didn't deliver.

1181
01:04:06.679 --> 01:04:09.119
He called the authorities because the mat that he had

1182
01:04:09.199 --> 01:04:12.960
just purchased was actually just a common rockball, and he

1183
01:04:13.079 --> 01:04:16.119
wanted the police to help get.

1184
01:04:17.880 --> 01:04:20.679
Oh boy, I have heard of a few nine to

1185
01:04:20.679 --> 01:04:23.719
one one calls like that that were just so ridiculous,

1186
01:04:23.760 --> 01:04:26.239
like that, Why would you? Why would you call it?

1187
01:04:26.320 --> 01:04:28.280
I know, like I don't think of myself as that

1188
01:04:28.480 --> 01:04:35.079
high up the evolutionary, you know, design, but I probably wouldn't.

1189
01:04:35.280 --> 01:04:37.599
You wouldn't have done any probably not. I like to

1190
01:04:37.599 --> 01:04:39.000
think I wouldn't have done them either.

1191
01:04:39.920 --> 01:04:44.199
Right now that the Olympics are over and football is over,

1192
01:04:45.280 --> 01:04:46.840
what are you? Are you feeling a little.

1193
01:04:46.920 --> 01:04:47.800
Well March madness.

1194
01:04:47.840 --> 01:04:49.880
I'm just gonna say that, yes.

1195
01:04:49.719 --> 01:04:51.519
And I am not a big basketball.

1196
01:04:51.199 --> 01:04:53.280
They have some big news though I.

1197
01:04:53.280 --> 01:04:56.079
Do, so I really don't follow basketball at all. I

1198
01:04:56.159 --> 01:04:59.159
will watch some basketball during March Madness because it's kind

1199
01:04:59.159 --> 01:05:01.239
of fun and exciting. I'm just not that big of

1200
01:05:01.280 --> 01:05:04.199
a basketball guy. But when I was in Florida, I

1201
01:05:04.239 --> 01:05:08.039
was wearing my University of Michigan sweatshirt and someone's.

1202
01:05:07.719 --> 01:05:13.079
Listener his of like one of my many when you

1203
01:05:13.119 --> 01:05:16.199
were on your last trip. I know, I'm so much fun,

1204
01:05:16.239 --> 01:05:19.079
but I cleaned out part of your closet and you

1205
01:05:19.280 --> 01:05:23.400
had like fifteen University of Michigan sweatshirts.

1206
01:05:23.480 --> 01:05:25.800
That might be a little bit of an exaggeration, but

1207
01:05:25.840 --> 01:05:28.599
probably ten at least. But anyway, I was wearing one

1208
01:05:28.679 --> 01:05:32.679
of my many Michigan sweatshirts and somebody, some random person,

1209
01:05:32.800 --> 01:05:36.159
just said, hey, Michigan basketball teams, they're going to go

1210
01:05:36.159 --> 01:05:37.760
all the way this year, right, And I was like what,

1211
01:05:38.280 --> 01:05:41.280
and he said, yeah, they're ranked number one and I

1212
01:05:41.320 --> 01:05:43.400
had no idea. Yeah, that's exciting.

1213
01:05:43.480 --> 01:05:46.599
Yeah, it will be exciting. Hopefully they will stick around

1214
01:05:46.679 --> 01:05:47.719
for a while.

1215
01:05:47.840 --> 01:05:50.559
That would be great. If they could win a national championship,

1216
01:05:50.559 --> 01:05:53.199
that would be very exciting for us in the Ann

1217
01:05:53.280 --> 01:05:53.880
Arbor area.

1218
01:05:54.519 --> 01:05:56.599
How much money are you putting down on Michigan.

1219
01:05:56.920 --> 01:05:59.719
Well, that depends I applied for a second mortgage to

1220
01:05:59.719 --> 01:06:01.719
our home, so it really depends on if that comes

1221
01:06:01.760 --> 01:06:02.159
through or not.

1222
01:06:02.280 --> 01:06:07.679
Yeah, that's super fun. I love that for us. Well,

1223
01:06:07.760 --> 01:06:12.400
you've wasted another hour listening to Rigentina on Love Mary.

1224
01:06:12.239 --> 01:06:14.199
Kill I don't think it was wasted hour.

1225
01:06:15.360 --> 01:06:19.519
I'm going to make a plea for anyone everyone who's listening.

1226
01:06:19.559 --> 01:06:22.760
If you enjoy your podcast, if you could please leave

1227
01:06:22.840 --> 01:06:26.599
us a good review on Spotify or Apple or wherever

1228
01:06:26.599 --> 01:06:28.239
you listen, that would be great.

1229
01:06:28.679 --> 01:06:31.599
Technically you can't really leave a review on Spotify, but

1230
01:06:31.639 --> 01:06:31.960
you can.

1231
01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:34.039
Thank you for pointing that out. You're so helpful.

1232
01:06:34.840 --> 01:06:36.639
Well, I don't want people to get confused. You can

1233
01:06:36.719 --> 01:06:39.079
leave us a review on Apple, you can leave us

1234
01:06:39.079 --> 01:06:41.760
a comment or a rating on Spotify. We appreciate it

1235
01:06:41.800 --> 01:06:42.800
either way, we do.

1236
01:06:43.639 --> 01:06:46.000
We really would like to continue to do this and

1237
01:06:46.039 --> 01:06:49.400
continue to grow, So that's the best way that you

1238
01:06:49.400 --> 01:06:51.199
can help us. And it doesn't cost you anything. It

1239
01:06:51.239 --> 01:06:53.599
just takes a couple of minutes. So if you wouldn't

1240
01:06:53.639 --> 01:06:56.960
mind doing that, we would greatly appreciate it. Thank you

1241
01:06:57.039 --> 01:07:01.159
again to Doug and Amy for the wonderful snat much appreciate.

1242
01:07:01.480 --> 01:07:03.719
If you've sent us a snacker promise, we will get

1243
01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:08.159
to it as soon as possible. Until next time, don't

1244
01:07:08.239 --> 01:07:49.719
kill your husband and don't kill your wife.