Linda Opdycke and Mark Stover

0:00 Hi, I'm Tina and I'm rich If there's one thing that we've learned over twenty years of marriage, it's. That some days you'll feel like killing. Your wife and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hello Richard, Hello Tina. How are you? I am doing it? How are you? I am a little out of breath because I literally just finished this case and then I had something in the oven. You know how that busy, busy, busy running around. Before we go any further, I wanted to give apologies to Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey. We were not able to make it to the wedding of our rigorous recording schedule, but sounds like it was a great time. Yeah, heartiest, congratulations to them.

0:53 I'm a little sorry we missed it. I am bummed that we have not seen her wedding dress yet. I checked, like People magazine like four hundred times over the weekend because I really thought that she would release the take time that she has it. But there must have been really tight security too, like from keeping people from bringing phones. In all could bring Yeah, there are you know, some some big big names there and no phones were allowed. But I think it sounds like it was a lot of fun and we wish them. Well, do you have anything you need to get off your chest, anything you want to talk about. No, I'm pretty good right now. Well, I left my first Amazon review this week. Oh yeah, you did, didn't you. It's funny because when I say this, everyone's gonna be like, well, we know it wasn't a five star review. We bought these hummingbird feeders. I've actually bought four of them, and you are going to think that I'm really dumb that I've bought this item four times when it doesn't work.

1:42 But it's like the perfect design, right. We like to see the hummingbirds in our kitchen window. And it's got like suction cups. It sticks on the windows. It's a really good design, very nice design, except for the fact that it doesn't leak. Yeah, and then in the description it says that the humming bird feeder is leak proof, so you think, oh, okay, and the manufactory does stand by their product. I emailed this is probably really boring, but I'll finish it up really quick. I emailed them and they were like, oh sure, send us a video and some still pictures and we'll replace the piece that it's leaking from. So that was kind of a pain in the butt. Have they replaced they honestly, I forgot to email them back. But we have hummingbirds that are you know, they're hungry. They're hungry, and I feel really bad. I'm still putting the feeder out, but it's dripping.

2:29 Doesn't it feel cathartic to leave a bad review? Though I've left I've only probably left four or five Amazon reviews in my life, and they've all been bad because that's the only time I get, really, I really. Get any joy from it, because they don't really I don't know. I don't like to leave negative things out in the world. But I don't normally either, But when a product is bad, I really it makes me mad. But I'm ordering a new system where the section cup just goes on your window and then I'm just going to get a regular feeder, one that's not like the one that's meant for Do you know what I'm talking? Not really, But I trust your judgment. And I look forward to okay, because there are hummingbirds, like we have a lot of them that can anyway, speaking of hummingbird food, good transition snap, and I think you're going to really like Okay, but I made dinner because I feel badly that I haven't cooked for you.

3:16 I'm not sure how you are still existing because I've not. Been cooking when I'm hanging in there, though, Hang. On just a second, I need to present this to you. Are you ready? I am definitely favorites. I think, oh this is uh it's called what's. It called pull apart bread? Well apart bread. I lovell apart pull apart bread. I've made it hundreds of times, but I don't think we've ever made it for the podcast. Do you want to try a piece really quick? Definitely? What did you think the pull apart bread? I loved it. It was great. I just loved the flavor. It's so buttery, and it's such a great residence. Inside is so soft, and the outside has this nice, you know, crisp sort of crust to it, and it's just delicious.

4:00 Make it in a bunt pan. You can do it in a loaf pan, but I do in a bunt pan. And you put butter on the bottom of the bunt pan and then you put your dough in there, so the bottom of the bread gets all nice and crispy. I can also make it savory. You could put I think I've done this before, where you can put like tomato sauce and like cheese and pepperoni in it, so it's like an Italian you know, pizza type dish. Or you can make it like a cinnamon roll type thing too. So flexible and I assume you're going to put the recipe. Show notes excellent. Today, I'm going to tell you the story of Linda Opdyke and Mark Stover. Before we get started, I want to give a content warning. This episode contains one scene involving violence towards a dog. Please listen with care.

4:41 When Amber Baker arrived at work at Mark Stover's dog Kettle in the morning of October twenty eighth, two thousand and nine, something felt wrong. The dogs were unusually agitated, barking non stop. Amber had worked from Mark for five years and considered him a father figure. She tried calling him, but there was there's no answer. As she walked toward the house, she noticed blood on the driveway. She reached for the back door, but it was locked. That stopped her in her tracks. Mark always left the back door unlocked so his employees could use the bathroom. A feeling that she couldn't explain told her not to go inside, so she turned around and went back to work. Later that morning, another employee, Stephanie Poor, arrived at the kennel.

5:25 She immediately noticed something else that seemed out of place. Mark's white station wagon was backed up to the house. Mark, wearing his signature hat and heavy coat, made several trips between the house and the car before speeding down the driveway. Stephanie waved, but Mark didn't wave back. That wasn't like him. He always drove slowly on his property in case one of the dogs got loose. A short time later, Stephanie went to the house to use the bathroom. She noticed spots of blood on the front walk, and when she opened the door, she was met by the strong smell of bleach. She saw bloodstains in the foyer and more blood on a rug. It was unsettling, but there were no obvious signs of a struggle ding. Mark's dog had recently undergone surgery to remove a tumor, so Stephanie assumed the blood had come from the dog. Uneasy, but believing there was a reasonable explanation, she returned to work. Neither woman called the police. By the following morning, though Mark still hadn't been seen. Although Mark Stover had an arsenal of weapons at his disposal, his greatest source of protection and peace of mind was his dog, Dingo or Ding, a Belgian Malanoi. Belgian Malanoi can be loyal, loving family dogs, but they are generally not suited for the average household with their intense energy, high prey drive, and constant need for mental stimulation. They thrive with experienced handlers and are often used in military and police work. Ding was highly trained as a protection dog and was fiercely devoted to Mark.

6:55 I don't think I'm familiar with that breed. I'm assuming it's a larger dog. It's about the size of a German shepherd, and Ding looks a lot like a German Shepherd too. Ding was the only dog who lived inside the house with Mark and would have done anything to keep him safe from harm. Mark rarely locked his doors because he knew Ding was always on duty. On October twenty ninth, two thousand and nine, the day after Amber and Stephanie first since something was wrong, Stephanie spotted Ding standing in the car port near the back door, growling lowly. It was highly unusual for her to be outside unless she was with Mark. As Stephanie got closer, she realized that Ding was in distress. Even though Stephanie was an employee and neighbor, not just anyone could approach the protective dog. She tried calling Mark on his cell phone again, but there was still no answer.

7:43 Stephanie reached out to a former employee who Ding knew and trusted. Together, they were able to get her into a vehicle and rush her to the veterinarian. Ding had recently undergone surgery to remove a tumor, so everyone initially assumed that she was suffering complications from the procedure, but the x rays revealed something far more disturbing. Someone had shot Ding three times in the head with a twenty two caliber Browning. Oh my goodness. Now it was time to get the police involved. Mark Stover's fiancee, Teresa vaugh Michelle, had already contacted the Skaggott County Sheriff's office earlier that day after she hadn't heard from him in more than thirty six hours. Mark was a disciplined man with a predictable routine. Every morning at eight am, he called Teresa. He would never miss that call two days in a row unless something was terribly wrong.

8:36 His deputies began searching for Mark. Theresa couldn't shake something that he had been telling her for months. He believed he was going to die. Despite taking precautions, he was convinced there was nothing he could do to stop it. It's crazy to me how many times people have premonitions of their own death. Like, I'm not a big believer in psychic phenomenon, but that seems it seems like it happens too often to dismiss. Mark was a very interesting guy. We're going to go into his background more now. But he had like dog senses. I don't know if dogs predict throughout. Deaths, but the dogs are very sensitive to things. Theodore Mark Stover was born on March eighteenth, nineteen fifty two, in Seattle, Washington. He loved being outdoors, hunting, fishing, and spending time with his dogs. He was also a student of history, a gun collector whose collection eventually grew to more than thirty firearms. He was a talented cook and eccentric, a thinker and an avid reader, but he was also cantankerous, stern, arrogant, and combative. Mark wasn't the kind of person people felt neutral about. They either admired him or found him difficult to be around. Tragedy was a constant throughout Mark's childhood.

9:51 He was just eighteen months old when his father died. His mother remarried and gave birth to a daughter, who died shortly after birth. Years later, Mark's half brother was killed in a car crash. After his mother's second marriage ended in divorce, Mark's mother married a third time to an abusive alcoholic who later died of cancer. Death and hardship were recurring themes in the Stover household. That is a lot of treasure for one household. Mark was a rebellious teenager after he was expelled from high school at age sixteen for smoking marijuana. He never went back. His future seemed uncertain after his stepfather's death. A family friend gave the struggling family a German shepherd puppy they named Gunter. It might seem like an unusual gift for a family struggling to put food on the table, but it turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to Mark. Mark and Gunter formed an inseparable bond.

10:45 A veterinarian friend recognized Mark's natural ability with dogs and encouraged him to train Gunter for search and rescue work with the Washington State Search and Rescue Canine Unit. Mark threw himself into the challenge, and before long, he and Gunter were traveling around the country assisting with search and rescue missions. The work gave Mark a sense of purpose and set him on the path that would define the rest of his life. Fascinated by animal behavior, Mark studied the work of behavioral psychologist BF Skinner and developed his own philosophy of dog training. He had a remarkable gift for working with dogs, especially those other trainers considered beyond help. Mark's friend Andrea Fernilovitch told Forty eight Hours that he was more dog than human. She said he would get down on all fours, look a dog directly in the eyes, and somehow calm even the most ferocious animals. Friend said that Mark had a knack for rehabilitating aggressive dogs that others had given up on, often saving them from youth in Asia. He believed that success came from understanding canine behavior and packed dynamics, rather than simply teaching obedience. Mark often woreked, dark sunglasses because he believed they made it more difficult for both people and dogs to read his eyes.

12:00 Although his exterior could be gruff, he also had a magnetic personality that drew both people and dogs to him. Friends say he projected quiet confidence and naturally assumed the role of the pax alpha. A former client and friend told The Seattle Times he was a wonderfully warm human being with a wry and quirky sense of humor, and the most knowledgeable dog trainer that I have ever met. Another simply said, I don't know how to explain it. It was like he spoke dog. Around Skaggett County, Mark was instantly recognizable despite owning a Porsche and a BMW. His favorite vehicle was a decrepit white station wagon he affectionately called the dog Alac. Mark's niece, Julia Simmons later joked that there was more dog hair than carpet inside the station wagon, and then it permanently smelt like a wet dog. Wearing his trademark white brimmed hat, he was a familiar sight driving through town with dogs riding beside him.

12:57 Linda Opdyke came from a world very diffy from Marx. A statuesque blonde with a love of the outdoors and animals, she was the heiress to one of Washington State's wealthiest families. Her parents, Nancy Corbin and Wallace Wally Updike, helped build Chateau Saint Michel into Washington's premiere winery. The family also had financial interests in K two Ski Corporation and Jan Sport, and were among the wealthiest and most influential people in the state. Despite growing up with extraordinary privilege, Linda wasn't drawn to country clubs or city life. She loved horses and became an accomplished equestrian, competing at a high level. Friends described her as intelligent, independent, and adventurous. She enjoyed the outdoors as much as Mark Stover, and their shared love of animals would eventually bring them together. In nineteen eighty two, the Updikes purchased Kickett Island for one point four million dollars. Kickett Island is a small wooded island in Washington's Puget Sound, about fifty five miles north of Seattle, covering roughly eighty acres. About the size of seventy football fields.

14:05 It feels like a world apart. Connected to Fidalgo Island by a narrow strip of land, It's accessible by car, yet once you cross onto the island, the rest of the world seems to disappear. Quiet beaches, towering evergreens, and sweeping views of Skaggot Bay create a feeling of complete seclusion. For nearly three decades, the island's solitude belonged almost entirely to Nancy and Wallace Updyke. Their home was the island's only residence. Despite being only a short drive from the city, Kickett Island felt like a private retreat hidden in plain sight. As an expert real estate developer, Walley could have transformed it into an exclusive waterfront development. Instead, he chose to preserve its natural beauty. The Updikes saw themselves as stewards of the land, carefully maintaining the island for years before eventually selling it to the Swinomish Indian Tribal Community and Washington State Parks so it would remain protected for generations to come. Linda met Mark Stover in the early nineteen nineties while looking for someone to train one of her dogs.

15:11 She found his name in the yellow pages. Their first meeting wasn't exactly love at first sight. Linda later admitted that she found Mark off putting. He struck her as arrogant, opinionated, and prone to angry outbursts. But beneath his rough exterior, she also saw something else. He was intelligent, witty, and unlike anyone she had ever met. Despite their different backgrounds and the thirteen year age difference between them, their relationship blossomed into love thirteen years. Was she thirteen years younger or older? She was younger. In nineteen ninety two, Linda convinced Mark to go into business with her, opening a dog training and boarding facility on her family's property on Kickett Island. They called it Island Dog Adventures. It was unlike any kennel most people had ever seen. Rather than spending their days confined to runs, the dogs roamed the island, swam in Puget Sound, and played on the beaches. According to the Seattle Times, the kennel even offered canine massages, pedicures, raw meat diets, and customized weight loss programs. It was a luxury resort for dogs, years before that concept became common.

16:23 I hope that I come back as a celebrity dog. If I'm reincarnated, I know that sounds like such a great life running around the islands, swimming in the sound. The business flourished. By two thousand and two, Island Dog Adventures was generating more than one million dollars a year. Mark's reputation as a dog trainer spread far beyond the Pacific Northwest. Known by many as the dog Whisperer, he became the trainer people sought out when other trainers had failed. His client list eventually included rock stars, professional athletes, business executives, and Hollywood celebrities. Over the years, he worked with the dogs of filmmaker Cameron Crow, Pearl jam frontman Eddie Vedder, Seattle Mariner's legend, Ichiro Suzuki, and former Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz, to name just a few. But success came at a personal cost. Mark and Linda poured themselves into the business, working long hours and rarely taking a day off. Friends said the kennel became their entire lives. After more than eleven years together, the couple married in May two thousand and two in the presidential Suite of the Four Seasons hotel in Las Vegas. Linda was thirty eight, Mark was fifty eleven years together before getting married. So that was just because they were so busy with the business, that just didn't occur to them to get married, you know why.

17:42 I think they just took their time. Sometimes. I think in these long term relationships, the wedding happens because someone is maybe not happy in the relationship and they think that might give them more security to think that's possible. I think that's certainly possible. Not everyone celebrated the marriage. Linda. His mother, Nancy, later told Forty eight Hours that she had opposed the relationship from the beginning. She believed Mark was controlling and had gradually isolated Linda from her family and friends. She tried to convince her daughter not to marry him. According to Linda and her family, those concerns only intensified after the wedding. They said Mark became increasingly controlling.

18:23 Despite their financial success, He was extremely frugal and tightly controlled household spending. Linda wanted to slow down, enjoy life, and eventually move off kicket Island. Mark refused. Over time, Mark also became intensely protective of the island itself. He viewed it as his domain and was known to confront trespassers personally, sometimes accompanied by his dogs and sometimes carrying a firearm. On one occasion, a man named Danny Jensen was digging for clams near Kickett Island when Mark approached him with a gun and ordered him to leave. This is private property, but people thought it was, you know, a park where they could go and do things. Yeah, it is now, but it wasn't then.

19:09 Was there any indication that Linda's parents didn't like Mark because he came from kind of a different social station, because that seems like that would be a fairly common objection. I would guess that was part partially the case. Well, Linda did seem like she was a different kind of woman, Like she wasn't afraid to work hard, and she liked being with the animals, and so I think, and I don't know if her parents were you know, hoity toity rich people either. They had tons of money, but you know, I don't think that there's any evidence saying that they were. Right that they would look down on Mark for being coming from a different status. I think it might have been his personality because while he was sometimes like really funny and charismatic.

19:49 He was also he could be a little cantankerous. Yeah, definitely a curmudgeon. We'll be back after a break. On her forty first birthday in September two thousand five, Linda reached her breaking point. Tired of what she described as Mark's increasingly controlling behavior, she filed for divorce. Mark refused to accept it. He wouldn't even hire an attorney. Linda later said that he shook with rage when she told him that she was leaving. Mark warned Linda that if she left, he would ruin her life. Hoping for a fresh start, she quietly moved to Winthrop, Washington, without telling Mark where she was going. She left Island Dog Adventures in his hands, and, in her account, she walked away without asking for anything, but The Seattle Times later reported that as part of the divorce settlement, Mark paid Linda one hundred seventy five thousand dollars for her share of the business. She also received an suv and a horse trailer in the settlement, while Mark retained the Porsche BMW and the kennel. Litter returned to one of her earliest passions, horses. She immersed herself from the equestrian world, spending as much time as she could writing and competing, hoping to build a new life for herself away from Mark.

21:08 And they never had children. Right, No, But according to Linda, Mark refused to let go. She said that he called her incessantly, sometimes as many as one hundred times in a single day. He left angry, profanity laced voicemail messages. She believed that he was following her too, monitoring her movements and even listening in on her phone conversations. Although the divorce became final in two thousand and seven, Linda said the harassment continued. At one point, she claimed that Mark made it clear that he could get into her house whenever he wanted. He even took her private journal. Then came one of the incidents that frightened her the most. One night, Linda looked outside and saw Mark crouched in her backyard holding a rifle pointed towards her house. Later that same night, she said, he entered her home and begged her to reconcile. Linda refused and called the police, telling them that she feared for her life.

22:02 That's terrifying looking out into your backyard at night and seeing someone out there with a gun. She had moved and didn't tell him where she was, and somehow he found her. Linda began dating John Bonica, who had served as Mark's best man at their wedding. The relationship only intensified the conflict between Linda and Mark. One night, Mark surreptitiously watched the couple from outside John's home. The following day, he confronted Linda with intimate details what she and John had been doing inside the house. Alarmed, John ended the relationship, telling Linda that he didn't need the drama and he feared for his family's safety. Whether every allegation was true or not, one thing is indisputable.

22:44 Linda genuinely believed that she was in serious danger. She enrolled in self defense classes, installed a security system and a safe room in her house, and also strategically placed twenty firearms throughout her home, including assault rifles, and she also obtained a new protection dog trained by someone other than Mark. As the relationship continued to unravel, Mark's messages became troubling. In one email, he wrote, this may be my last birthday. I don't know what I'm about anymore, but I'm about to give up. Not long afterward, Linda called the police after discovering Mark had gone through her trash. He was arrested and later resolved the stocking charge by entering an Elford plea. Do you remember I always feel like we have to explain it.

23:27 Yeah, we haven't talked about it one in a while. But an Elford plea allows a defendant to maintain his innocence while acknowledging that prosecutors have enough evidence that a jury would likely convict them. The court sentence marked to two years of probation, thirty days of electronic home monitoring, in a year of anger management counseling. He was also ordered to surrender all of his firearms and stay away from Blinda. Linda said that the conviction did little to allay her fears. He had a lot of firearms? Right did? He had? At least thirty? Some people say that he might have get given them to a friend, but I'm not really sure what happened to all of them. But he was really unhappy about that Ottawagin. Following his conviction, Mark gave Linda one last dig despite a court order requiring that she remain on his health insurance until the divorce was finalized, he canceled her coverage. In an email, he cautioned her, next time, do not call the cops on the guy that controls your health care. Linda was granted a restraining order against Mark. Court records showed that another former romantic partner of Mars had also been granted a restraining order against him previously. According to those close to the case, after Mark's conviction, his contact with her largely ended. By then, life appeared to be moving in different directions for both of them. The Opdyke family informed Mark that he would have to relocate Island Dog Adventures because they intended to sell Kicktt Island. Although he initially threatened legal action, arguing he had invested heavily in improving the property, he ultimately moved the business to a new

24:59 home near Anna Cordies. He had also fell in love again. Mark was in a relationship with Teresa vau Michel, and not long before his disappearance, the two became engaged. In interviews with forty eight Hours, Mark's sister, Vicky Simmons and his niece Julia rejected Linda's portrayal of Mark as controlling and abusive. Instead, they believed Linda had become hostile towards Mark after the relationship deteriorated, and claimed that she had threatened both his business and his reputation. Julia, who acknowledged that she had never actually met Linda in person, nevertheless described her as intelligent, manipulative, and vindictive. Vicky also defended her brother, insisting that while Mark could certainly be difficult and opinionated, he was not the abusive man that Linda described.

25:47 As with many contentious divorces, the truth depends, in part on whose story you believe. The relationship between the former spouses had become so bitter that each side viewed the other as the aggressor. Whatever had won and drawing them together was long gone. Both Mark and Linda had done things that seemed to provoke and antagonize the other, and the bitterness between them only continue to grow. It makes me sad when a couple splits up like this and they can't just go their separate ways like they have. They have no kids, they have nothing that causes them to have to interact with each other. Yeah, just get on with your life. You've got you know, you've got this. I think it's really hard to let go. I know, I guess so, but it's just it makes me sad.

26:27 I mean, would if I said I was going to leave you tomorrow, would you be like, okay, see you have a good five byebye? Of course not. But that's you know, it's a little bit different. We've been together for a long time, We've got kids together, you know. I mean, I think regardless of the situation, it's it's hard to let go. And there's always a lot of emotions involved. Yeah, a lot of time it's anger and Yeah. Although Mark appeared to be moving on with his life and by all accounts, respecting the restraining order, Linda remained deeply uneasy. Years of what she described as threats, stalking, and indation had left her convinced that Mark still posed a danger. She struggled to believe that she could ever truly let her guard down. Determined to make her home as secure as possible, Linda hired a security consultant named Michael Oakes to evaluate and upgrade her security system. He installed additional surveillance cameras and made recommendations to better protect the property. Michael was an interesting man born in nineteen sixty eight. He was the youngest of four children. Friends described him as intelligent, thoughtful, and intensely curious. Over the years, he had started several businesses, including a paintball facility, held multiple patents for his inventions, wrote magazine articles, and even won a literary award for an unpublished novel. Professionally, he specialized in security consulting and tactical training, teaching survival skills, close quarters combat, and defensive tactics to military personnel, law

27:58 enforcement officers in swat teams. He was also a devoted father. Michael had four children from his first marriage, and after that marriage ended, became their primary caregiver while continuing to work from home whenever possible. His second marriage, to Jennifer Thompson lasted only a year, ending in divorce in two thousand and eight. As Michael worked to improve Linda's home security, she confided in him about her fears and the years of stress that she said Mark had caused her. The two quickly discovered they had much in common. They shared a love of the outdoors, horses, sports books, and a deep appreciation for living life on their own terms. Before long, the professional relationship blossomed into romance. And Michael and his four children moved into Linda's home. Both later described falling deeply in love. They believed they had found the kind of once in a lifetime relationship that many people spend their entire lives searching for. They spoke of being soulmates, best friends who share the same values, the same passions, and the same vision for their future. Linda later said their love story was one for the books. Physically, they made an unlikely couple. Linda stood nearly six feet tall, while Michael was just five feet six, but neither of them seemed to notice. To Michael and Linda, they had found the person that they had been waiting for. For both of them, it felt as if they had been given a second chance at happiness. Jennifer Thompson, Michael's second wife, painted a very different picture of the man that she had once married. She described Michael as intelligent and thoughtful

29:32 and outwardly gentle, but said that he had an intense need to protect the people he cared about. According to Jennifer, he viewed the world in stark terms of right and wrong and believed some people were beyond redemption and deserved to be taken out a dexter Morgan mentality. Jennifer also said that towards the end of their marriage, Michael told her that he was considering accepting a dangerous job. Jennifer recalled him, saying that a father had approached him about protect acting his daughter, a woman named Linda, from her abusive ex husband. Jennifer was deeply troubled by what Michael described. She forbade him from taking the job. Later, Jennifer said the conversations became a major factor in the breakdown of their marriage. As his relationship with Linda deepened, Michael came to believe that Mark Stover possessed a serious threat to Linda, to himself, and eventually to his children as well.

30:26 So this job he was considering accepting this was to guard Linda from Mark. Well, the job was actually to take Mark out. Oh, but of course, no one other than Jennifer admits that this ever happened. Okay. On August third, two thousand and nine, the Skaggitt County Sheriff's Office received an anonymous phone call. Speaking quietly, almost in a whisper, the caller warned deputies that a drug deal was about to take place the following morning. The man transporting the drugs, the caller claimed was Mark Stover. He also cautioned that Mark was armed and dangerous. The next day, deputies located Mark and conducted a traffic stop.

31:07 During a search of his vehicle, they discovered a magnetic box attached to the underside of the car. Inside was marijuana and a small amount of cocaine. Mark was stunned. He immediately insisted the drugs weren't his and told deputies someone had planted them in an effort to frame him. Investigators believed him. They concluded there wasn't enough evidence to show Mark knowingly possessed the drugs and released him without making an arrest. For Mark, the incident confirmed what he had feared for some time, someone he believed was trying to destroy him. Determined to find out who was behind it, Mark hired private investigator Lee Herron. The Opdykes immediately rose to the top of his list of suspects, but they weren't the only people he believed could have wanted to harm him.

31:55 So this whole situation is just ridiculous. The call that this anonymous person made to the police, he was whispering in the phone, and at one point the dispatcher's like, why are you whispering? He said, it's a very delicate matter, and the voice on the other line was definitely Michael. I suspected as much, your. Intuition is spot on as always. By late October two thousand and nine, more than two years had passed since Mark and Linda's divorce. Mark had relocated Island Dog Adventures after leaving Kike at Island and was engaged to Teresa vau Michelle. Linda was building a new life with Michael Oakes and his children. Although Linda remained fearful of Mark, there was little indication that the two had been in contact for months. Then, Teresa called the Skaggittt County Sheriff's office to report Mark missing. When a police officer arrived at Mark's home, what initially appeared to be a routine welfare check revealed that something alarming may have happened to him. Inside the house, she noticed a strong odor of bleach. Several faint bloodstains in the hallway appeared as though someone had recently tried to clean them up. There were additional blood spots in the bedroom, and the bathroom also smelled heavily of bleach. Mark's employees told investigators that was highly unusual. Mark never cleaned with bleach because he believed the fumes were toxic to dogs.

33:22 As deputies continued their search, another clue surfaced. Later that day, Mark's white station wagon was found abandoned in the parking lot of the Swinnomish Northern Lights Casino, about three miles from his home. Surveillance footage later showed someone driving the car into the lot before walking away, but the driver's identity couldn't be determined. The driver's window had been left open, the keys were still in the ignition, Mark's glasses were inside the car, and there was blood, so they have no body at this point. Right later that morning, another call came into the Skaggot County Sheriff's office. A woman and her mother reported seeing two vehicles trespassing on the property of the Summit Park Grange, less than half a mile from Mark's home. The women watched as a man moved what appeared to be a large object wrapped in plastic from a white station wagon into a black suv.

34:18 Once he finished, he drove away, leaving the station wagon behind. The witnesses had the presence of mind to write down the license plate numbers of both vehicles before calling police. When officers arrived, only the white station wagon was left behind. The gate appeared to be locked. In reality, someone had neatly cut through a single link in the chain, removed it just long enough to gain access, then threaded the chain back together before leaving. The deception was so subtle that it wasn't immediately obvious how anyone had entered the property. A deputy quickly located the black suv parked nearby along the side of the road. He later said that the man appeared extremely nervous. The driver handed over his license to the deputy. It was Michael Oakes. Oakes explained that he had become lost and had pulled over to make a phone call. Looking through the windows, the deputies noticed blankets and sleeping bags piled halphazardly in the back of the suv, but he had no legal basis to search the vehicle. After giving Oaks a warning about trespassing, the deputy allowed him to leave. At the time, no one knew how significant that encounter would become and what the deputy missed.

35:32 So this happened on October twenty eight, two thousand and nine, the day that Mark disappeared. Okay got It. As investigators processed the crime scene, the evidence increasingly pointed to one man, Michael Oakes. Inside Mark's home, investigators found blood belonging to Michael and shell casings that matched one of his handguns. Mark's blood was also found inside Michael's suv. Investigators searched the house but found no firearms, suggesting Dark had complied with the court order requiring him to surrender his guns after his stalking conviction. Detectives then began retracing Michael's movements. On October twenty eight, Surveillance cameras at Linda's home showed him leaving just after two thirty that morning. Michael later admitted driving to Anacorda's, arriving at Mark's home before six am. He said he had gone there hoping to finally talk things out with Mark and put years of conflict behind them, Knowing Mark had once owned dozens of firearms and believing him to be dangerous.

36:32 Michael wore a kevlar vest beneath his clothing and carried two handguns. Investigators also discovered that before driving to Anacorda's, Michael had stopped at Walmart. According to a receipt recovered from his suv, he purchased an anchor chain, three ankle weights, camouflage clothing, a backpack, and shin guards. Later that morning, at nine forty three, surveillance cameras captured Mark's white station wagon a road driving at a Lowe's home improvement store. The driver was Michael Oakes. Inside, he purchased a pair of bolt cutters. Investigators believed they were used to cut the chain securing the gate at the Summit Park Grange.

37:14 Later that afternoon, at four fifty one, Michael returned to the same lows this time driving his black Suzuki SUV, and returned the bolt cutters for a refund. Who does that? Yeah, that doesn't see a lot of people do. Just doesn't seem like the smartest move in the world. One thing about this case, it was this happened in two thousand and nine, but all the video surveillance was pretty clear. Really, so that tells me that today, like, how many cameras are you spotted up? Oh, yes, day and it must be really really clear. Yeah, I would think so. Court documents show investigators recovered several other items from Michael's suv, including a backpack matching the Walmart receipt, two loaded nine millimeter magazines, a bulletproof vest, and printed in intructions for building a suppressor for a twenty two.

38:02 Caliber firearm Ord silencer Okay. Conspicuously absent were the anchorchain and the ankle weights. Around eleven thirty on October twenty eighth, Michael returned to Linda's home in Winthrop, where she was waiting for him. He told her it had been a long, bad day. Things had gone wrong. Investigators arrived and asked to speak with him. When they asked where he had been that day, Michael admitted he had driven to visit his ex wife, Jennifer. Tears silently rolled down Linda's cheeks at the news. She quietly excused herself and left the room, overwrought with emotion. Michael then asked if he could retrieve medication for his anxiety from his suv. Officers agreed. As one detective watched from a distance, Michael opened the rear of the vehicle, removed a white bag, and tossed it over a nearby twenty five foot embankment. Police immediately recovered it. Inside were a twenty two caliber pistol, a bloodstained piece of carpet that had been cut from the suv, a bloody napkin, and clothing receipts. Before placing Michael under arrest, officers stripped him of a loaded nine millimeter handgun tucked into the waistband of his pants. Although Mark Stover's body had still not been found, investigators believed they had enough evidence to move forward with an arrest. Forty one year old Michael Oakes was charged with first degree murder. His bond was initially set at five million dollars before later being reduced to two point five million after family members put up

39:34 their homes as collateral. Michael was released under house arrest. While awaiting trial, he was forbidden from seeing Linda. It sure seems like for a guy who his whole job is about, like training people and security and all, that seemed like this was a really sloppy job that he did. He's such an interesting character. He was on forty eight hours in dateline, so I got a really good sense of who he was. He's just a really odd guy. We'll be back after a break. Although Michael Oaks had been arrested, one question remained unanswered.

40:15 Where was Mark? After a cadaver dog alerted near the Swnomish Channel, the narrow waterway separating Fidelgo Island from the mainland, dive teams spent days searching the cold, murky water for Mark's body. They searched exhaustively but found nothing. Mark had seemingly vanished without a trace. Despite the absence of a body, investigators believed they had enough evidence to move forward. Prosecutors concluded the circumstantial evidence against Michael Oaks painted a compelling picture of what they believed had happened on October twenty eighth, two thousand and nine, and Michael didn't dispute many of the facts uncovered by investigators. Instead, he offered a dramatically different explanation for them. Michael did deny going to Mark's house on the morning of October twenty eighth, but he insisted he hadn't gone there intending to kill him. Instead, he claimed that he had been trying for months to protect himself, Linda, and his children from a man he believed was becoming dangerous. According to Michael, his first encounter with Mark took place in May two thousand nine, outside a costco near his home. Mark allegedly confronted him, saying, you're the guy that's fucking my wife. Michael claimed Mark demanded that he turn over the wedding photographs from Mark and Linda's marriage. For years, Mark had been fixated on these wedding photos and had asked Linda for them several times.

41:41 Mark mentioned what Michael's children had been wearing when they left for school that morning, something Michael interpreted as a threat. Michael said Mark warned him that if he wanted to keep himself and his children safe, he would hand over the wedding photographs. Michael said they met again about a week later at a shopping mall. The meeting lasted only a few minutes, and he still hadn't brought the photographs, telling Mark he couldn't find them. Michael said that Mark warned him to start taking the threats seriously. The encounters, Michael claimed, continued throughout the summer. While he and Linda were vacationing in Montana visiting her parents, Michael said Mark unexpectedly approached him at a coffee shop. Linda and Michael had been considering relocating to Montana in hopes of putting more distance between themselves. And Mark. Mark told Michael Montana is my state and warned him again that if he didn't produce the wedding photographs, he would lose someone he loved.

42:38 Michael prepared for what he considered a real and ominous threat by himself. He placed firearms throughout the home, including in his children's bedroom. He taught them how to shoot if they were ever forced to defend themselves. I don't know how old his children were, but that seems like a really bad idea. So at least one of them was over eighteen. I think there was one that was younger, but there was also two teenagers. So but yeah, I mean, these kids should not have been put in that position. But you know the kind of guy Michael is, right, you can see him right. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with owning weapons, but to put them in every room of your house is. Yeah, it seems a little overboard. Yeah. Michael met Mark again in late September in a church parking lot, and then again on October twenty fourth, at the same location. Each time, he said, Mark repeated his demands at his threats. Finally, Mark instructed him to come to his house on the morning of October twenty eighth, he told Michael not to park in the driveway, but instead leave his vehicle near the church and walk through the woods. Michael claimed that he never shared any of this with Linda. He claimed that he wanted to protect her from additional stress and believed he could handle the situation himself. Michael insists that Mark shot him first, and he shot back only in self defense. What do you think of Michael's story And do you believe that these wedding photos are Mark's motivation to be a stalker and a nuisance?

44:05 I mean, it seems a little a little unlikely to me. I mean, it sounds I. Need to mention though he did ask Mark did ask Linda for these pictures for years. Say it doesn't sound out a character for Mark based on what we know about him, that I could imagine that he would want those photos and that he would be upset about not getting them. But it just seems like to stalk him. And why would Michael meet with him like on five to six different occasions and keep going if he didn't have. The word right photo exactly what would be the point of even meeting. Yeah. After Michael's arrest, his ex wife, Jennifer Thompson contacted investigators with information she believed was important. Jennifer told detectives that she had seen Michael twice during the days leading up to Mark's disappearance. The first meeting took place on October twenty fourth. Jennifer had recently begun dating someone new, but admitted she still had unresolved feelings for Michael. Hoping to find out whether there was any chance of reconciling, she reached out and asked if he was truly over their relationship. Michael admitted he still had feelings for her, and the two agreed to meet in person.

45:13 Jennifer lived near Mark Stover's kennel, and Michael told her he was in the area to do what he described as a dangerous job. Later that day, he sent her a text message that read no worries, I'm safe. Job failed, I'm okay, no pay though. Four days later, on October twenty eighth, Michael called Jennifer again. He suggested they meet at a Starbucks around one fifteen pm before taking a walk together. Jennifer immediately noticed that he looked unusually disheveled, with a rusty spot on his jeans. During their brief conversation. Jennifer later told investigators that Michael said a big and dangerous mission had turned into a job gone bad. He also told her that if police looked in the back of his vehicle, he could spend the rest of his life in prison. Michael was prone to exaggeration, but she believed him. The police found Jennifer to be a credible witness.

46:09 So he's telling Jennifer here that if the police had looked into the back of his car, that he would have gone to prison for the rest of his life. Right, And remember that officer did look into the back of his car and some blankets and things, and Mark's body was in his car at that time. More than likely that police officer must have been kicking himself, I know. But he also didn't have cause to search his vehicle. Either, right, Yeah, in hindsight, he must have been kicking himself by at the time he could get known for sure. But that's as close as police ever got to Mark's body. Oh. Michael maintained that he acted in self defense. He was steadfast in his claim that Mark opened fire first after he entered the house on the morning of October twenty eight. Michael said the bullet lodged in the kevlar vest he was wearing, which proved he had returned fire only to save his own life. Investigators, however, questioned that claim.

47:05 They noted that the bullet was embedded almost perfectly in the center of the vest and had entered straight on rather than at an angle, which seemed unlikely. Michael claimed that he had shot Ding because she was coming straight at him. His attorneys also argued they had evidence that Mark himself had arranged the early morning meeting, and maintained that the bullet recovered from the vest did not match any firearm known to have belonged to Mark. Prosecutors saw the case differently. Inside Mark's home, investigators found Michael's blood, along with three spent shell casings that forensic testing matched one of his twenty two caliber handguns. Mark's blood was discovered inside Michael's SUV, and the bloodstained piece of carpet cut from the vehicle also tested positive for Mark's DNA.

47:54 Prosecutors argued the physical evidence was only part of the story. According to their theory, Michael parked his car at the church before walking roughly half a mile through the woods to Mark's house, wearing a kevlar vest and carrying two firearms. He arrived prepared for a violent confrontation. After shooting Mark, prosecutors alleged that Michael loaded his body into Mark's white station wagon, drove to the grange, and transferred the body into his own suv. They argued that he then disposed of the body in a location that has never been discovered. Prosecutors also pointed to Michael's actions after the shooting, his purchases that morning, his statements to Jennifer Thompson about a dangerous job gone bad, and his attempt to throw a bag containing a twenty two caliber pistol and other incriminating evidence down an embankment. As detectives arrived at Linda's home with Mark's body still missing, prosecutors asked the court to order Michael to reveal where it was. They also sought to compel him to identify the person he claimed he had been protecting when he asserted self defense. Superior Court Judge Michael Rickert denied the request, ruling that the court could not force a defendant to provide potentially self incriminating testimony, even if doing so might help investigators recover of victim's remains.

49:15 The judge did, however, order Linda Updike to sit for a deposition, invoking her Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination. She declined to answer nearly every question. Linda's attorney, John Henry Brown, said his client remained deathly afraid of Mark. Speaking to the Seattle Times, Brown described the case as a big who done it. Neither Linda nor her father, Wallace Updike, was ever charged in connection with Mark's disappearance. Wait, remind me why Linda's father would have potentially been charged. Do you ever at the end of Michael's second marriage he had been offered a job to take someone out right. That was allegedly Linda's father offering Michael money if he killed.

49:58 Oh, okay, I'd forgotten he face was involved in that. But there is no proof that that ever happened. Okay. Judge Rickert predicted how the deposition would unfold. I will order the deposition, he said, but I cannot order them to talk with you. I can see what's going to happen. They're going to show up and we're going to argue about every single question all day long. Even before the trial began, both sides agreed on one thing. If prosecutors could convince the jury that Mark Stover was dead and that his death was a homicide, the entire case would hinge on whether Michael Oakes had acted in lawful self defense. As one of Michael's attorneys put it before trial, if the state can prove that Stover is dead and that it was a homicide, then we will claim self defense. In the months leading up to trial, Michael also gave interviews to both Dateline and forty eight Hours.

50:50 Asked by Peter van zandt what happened inside Mark's home, Michael offered a blunt explanation. He started a gunfight, and I won. Michael Oaks. His trial began in October twenty ten. Leading the defense was slick Seattle attorney John Henry Brown, who had once defended Ted Bundy. Brown waived his opening statement, choosing instead to let the prosecution present its case before revealing the defense strategy. He had already made one thing clear. If prosecutors proved that Mark was dead and that his death was a homicide, the defense would argue Michael acted in self defense. I think this is such an odd way to go about the defense here. Yeah, it really is one of the first battles centered on the kevlar vest.

51:33 Michael had insisted the bullet embedded in the vest proved that Mark had fired first, but firearms experts disagreed. They testified that the bullet was consistent with one of Michael's own firearms and concluded it appeared to have been fired into the vest while it was laying flat, rather than while it was being worn. Throughout the trial, Brown argued that investigators had developed a tunnel vision, focusing almost exclusively on Michael while ignoring evidence that supported his claim of self defense. He maintained that Mark had orchestrated the meeting and portrayed him as a volatile man who had continued threatening Linda long after their divorce. Something that stood out to me is that there was no evidence that Mark had ever contacted Michael for a meeting, like there would have been a text or an email or something. And at one point he said, oh, I'll be able to prove that he did, and he never offered that evidence.

52:29 And then he also said, you know, like, oh, I can prove that Mark shot me in the kevlar vest while it was one of it was sorry his weapons. And the police never found any weapons at Mark's home either, No, they didn't. During the defense's case, Theresa Vau, Michelle Mark's fiance, acknowledged that he had traveled to Montana twice while Linda and Michael were vacationing there. She also testified that Mark had once asked a young female employee to accompany him on one of those trips because she could legally carry the handgun that he was prohibited from possessing after his stocking conviction. So allegedly he did have other people keeping guns for them for him, but he tried not to keep them in his house. When Michael took the stand, the courtroom witnessed one of the trial's most memorable moments. Prosecutors asked him to put on the kevlar vest and demonstrate what happened.

53:20 After he claimed Mark shot him in the chest without warning. Michael lunged forward, grabbed prosecutor Rich Bolas's arm, twisted it behind his back, and threw him to the floor. The courtroom erupted in nervous laughter. As Bolas climbed to his feet, he looked at Michael and said, that was amazingly fast. Mister Oakes is that how it happened. Michael replied, matter of factly, that's how I was trained. So a lot of experts say, like, if you are shot in the chest, even if you have a kevlar vest, it's going to knock the wind out of you. It's going to shock you, and you're not going to have this, you know, sudden reaction like Michael claims that he had. Yeah, you know, it's going to take you a few moments to.

54:04 Yeah. For months, Mark's family had been searching for answers. Investigators had searched the Swnomish Channel over and over without success, and the witness stand Michael finally told the jury where he had left Mark's body. He testified that after the shooting, he dumped Mark's body into the waters of the Swnomish Channel near a weather beaten dock behind the casino, a few miles from Mark's home. He had tucked Mark's handgun into his pocket before pushing the body from the rear of his vehicle into the water. It was a tidy and convenient answer, but was it true. There was video of Marx Black suv entering the casino around twelve thirty pm on October twenty eighth, His vehicle disappeared for sixteen minutes and then re emerged before he pulled a way out of the casino. The area was searched extensively. The water here is shallow, only about four feet deep, but no body Oregon was ever recovered, although it is possible Mark could have been swept away with the current.

55:06 I was going to ask because this is this is called a channel, which means it has some current there. But all of the investigators and the recent people say that that was not very likely. Possible, but not likely. In resting and do you think it's odd that he would put the gun with Mark? It is odd, but I find the whole thing odd, like why would you? It just seems odd that you would dispose of a body after you kill them in self defense, if it truly was self defense. The jury was being asked to decide an extraordinary case. There was no body, no why witness to the shooting, and no confession. Instead, they would have to weigh four weeks of testimony from more than fifty witnesses, more than seven hundred exhibits, and the competing stories presented by the prosecution and the defense. Once the case was handed to the jury. They took their time. They painstakingly reviewed the evidence and even constructed a handwritten time line that stretched more than twenty feet across the deliberation room floor. After four days of deliberating, they took their first first vote.

56:09 Unsure of what to expect. It was unanimous. They found Michael Oakes guilty of first degree murder. His children could be heard sobbing after the verdict was read. Before deputies escorted him from the courtroom. Michael was allowed to embrace each of his children before being taken into custody. This broke my heart because I heard audio of them. Oh, it was really heartbreaking. They seemed like really sweet kids. And for all Michael's faults, I feel like he did love his children very much. And the jury here, I was really impressed by them. They seemed like they really took and Yeah. Several weeks later, Michael returned to the court for sentencing. Judge Rickert made it clear that he did not believe Michael had told the whole truth. If, as Michael claimed, he had acted in self defense, the judge of question why he had never led investigators to Mark's body and the gun that could have corroborated his account.

57:03 The judge said the case had left him with more questions than answers. He compared Michael's version of events to a fairy tale, one in which Michael cast himself as the knight rescuing the princess by slaying the dragon, but what troubled him most was something else. For more than a year, Mark Stover's family had searched for answers, while Michael remained the only person who knew where Mark's body had been left. Judge Reichert then made one final observation quote, I'm pretty sure I know where he isn't and that's off the dock at the end of the Sunomish Channel. He sentenced Michael Oakes to three hundred twenty months in prison, the maximum sentence allowed under Washington law. Mark Stover's body has never been found, his family continues to search for him.

57:46 Linda Opdyke summed it up well when she said, there are a lot of ruined lives in this. It's tragic for every single person involved in this. Can you do the math for me on what three hundred and twenty. Months is twenty six and a half years. Like parents who talk about how many months old their kids are when they're like five years old. Mark Stover was a complicated man with many dimensions. Those who loved him remembered him as a gifted dog trainer with an almost uncanny ability to understand animals. He dedicated his life to rehabilitating dogs that others had given up on, saving many from euthanasia. Friends describe him as intelligent, quirky, endlessly curious, and someone who seemed to speak the language of dogs. Loved history, the outdoors, hunting, fishing, spending time with the animals that became his life's work. Whatever happened between Mark and Linda in the years leading up to his death, no one deserved to disappear without a trace.

58:38 More than fifteen years later, his family is still waiting to bring him home. We hope that one day they finally get the chance. Rest in peace. Mark. Teresa Marx fiancee, later filed a civil lawsuit, claiming that he had written her a check of one hundred and fifty thousand dollars just weeks before his disappearance because he feared something might happen to him. Friends testified that Mark believed Linda wanted him to the court never decided whether those fears were justified. Instead, the lawsuit was dismissed after it was filed just five days after the deadline. I am surprised you never asked about ding. Oh. Yeah, despite being shot in the head three times, she recovered an incredible outcome for a dog whose life had been devoted to protecting money. She later died from cancer, but Teresa had her I think for several years before she died. So, I mean, what a dog. Yeah, why do you think that Michael purchased shin guards.

59:32 I was wondering that when when we mentioned that that seemed like a very odd. Well, he said he purchased them as a gift for Jennifer, his second wife had two young boys that he cared about. He said, oh, those were a gift for one of the boys, but it was in case the dog bit him in the shin Oh. I thought of everything. I guess, well, I forgot to tell this one crazy story when he was saying, how you know, he went to Mark's house and he had the bullet proof of ast but he was prepared if he needed to run through the woods to a water tower and one of the things that he had bought was, you know, like the anchor rope or whatever, and that he was planning on climbing up the water tower and escaping from mar Wow. Yeah, I mean guy was kind of a little intense.

1:00:21 Delusional in some ways. I guess. Maybe do you believe any part of Michael's story or do you believe he went to Mark's house with the sole intention of taking him out. I believe the part of his story where he said he shot and killed Mark, But yeah, I think he went there with the intention of killing him. Do you think it was a job that someone hired him to do, like Linda's father. I don't know. That's what I was really curious about, whether whether Linda had knowledge that he was going to do this or it doesn't seem like he would have been hired to do this. I don't I can't imagine why would Linda's father. I guess he wanted to protect his daughter, maybe his daughter. And there's also I think, you know, some bad feelings about the business. Yeah, things that happened there. There was a little bit of evidence pointing to Linda might have told Michael a few things, like Michael knew to put on this jacket, that Mark always wore and this like Indiana Jones style type hat. He knew to put that hat on because Mark literally wore that every everywhere he went.

1:01:17 So if someone and I should mention too that Mark was a smaller stature as well, so you know, like his employees thought, oh, that is just Mark. Right. So did Linda tell Michael a few things like that? That's interesting because I was going to say that just based on what I've learned about Michael, it doesn't seem like it seems like he was just kind of an odd duct and this might have been something he just dreamed up in his own head that I'm going to do this, I'm going to be this hero, I'm going to go do this. But those things you just mentioned do give me a little more pause, Like it does make me wonder did she was she involved in that? She didn't know, especially because they had allegedly this strong bund.

1:01:59 But also Michael was talking to Jennifer right, and it sounded like they still had feelings for each other. Yeah, and he'd seen her twice in four days and it was a three hour drive. So yeah, I don't know, Michael said to Peter Van sant On forty eight hours, he started a gunfight and I won, And that has really stuck with me. What do you think of that statement? I mean it makes it sound like all Michael really cared about is winning, and winning in this case meant taking out his competition. Yeah. On a lighter note, Walmart. Why has Walmart featured in so many of our cases? It's cover Target or Costco, it's always Walmart. Maybe maybe it's just because there's more time, But isn't it funny there's so many cases where right before the murder happened, they stopped at Walmart.

1:02:44 I was thinking. Also, McDonald's comes up a lot, and I think it's just because they're everywhere. But in a lot of cases we do, people are like, oh, they took the kids to McDonald's or whatever. But Walmart does seem to come up very frequently. I think you were in bed last night and I was still working and I was laughing, and I told you, Keith Morrison is yelling at someone. As he did. He was so mad at Michael. He said, quote, any rational person would know that you don't protect your children by taking a gun to someone else's house to meet with them if you think there will be gunplay. You don't do that if you're a dad. Wow. And then Michael went on and he was like, well, Keith, I think if you were in the situation I was in, you would have done it.

1:03:25 Wow. I have to I'm gonna have to go listen to that clip because you don't hear Tiith Morrison get mad that often. Yeah, it was. It was really really wish this was an older episode too. I loved the way Keith looks today, but he definitely was younger in this episode. I wish you had done Keith Morrison's voice when you read that quote, but a go for it. No, no podcast, you could read it well, that is the story of Linda Opdyke and Mark Stover and Michael Oakes. It made me miss having a dog. Yeah, me too. Dogs are the best. Before we go, I want to talk about short people.

1:04:06 I want justice for short people. I feel like people talk about being tall as if it's this great attribute that you have anything to do with. You can't help if you're born short or tall. And especially for men. My heart goes out to men who are shorter because. It does it does affect your life, It does affect men. I think things have gotten a little easier because now there's terms like short king that people refer to, you know, shorter men. You are pretty average, not only in height way, But what do you think the average height for a man is? I think it's like five ten, it's five to nine, and you are.

1:04:49 Five eight and three quarters maybe okay? And the average hype for women, what do you think that is five six seven? That's what I thought, But it's five to three and a half. What Yeah, so I'm a little taller than I'm five six and you are five nine. But it's just funny that people think like being tall, you know, is better than being short. Does give you a step up and if you want, especially if you want to be a basketball player. That's one thing it's always bothered me about basketball is if you're like seven feet tall, you are way more likely to be a basketball star than if you're five feet is they're a. Short person's league. There is where the hoops are. Like any I think any league. Can I believe in some places there are leagues for shorter people to play. But I guess that's a good point.

1:05:35 Keith referred to Michael, who I am not defending Michael. This all this diatribe is not defending Michael Oaks, but Keith called him a diminutive dad, and diminutive is not necessarily a bad word, but yeah, it sounds a little to meaning. Wait, how tall was Michael He was. Five six, but he was also like just a very slight man. He probably weighs one hundred and forty or one hundred and fifty. Okay, Well, there are a lot of men who are celebrities that aren't super tall. Tom Cruise pending on the day of the week, is five six or five seven. Kevin Hart is five feet two inches. Daniel Radcliffe is five inches. Prince was five to two, Martin Scrucesi five foot four, Bruno Mars five to five. Anyway, you get the idea. It could still be.

1:06:22 Short and success since he was tiny. He was a little guy. Yeah. Well, my grandma, who was the person who I admired most in my life, she was probably four foot ten maybe if that. Wow. She was just so adorable. She was this little, tiny woman. She had the best sense of humor, and she would always talk about how her favorite form of humor was puns because it was known to be the lowest form of humor and she was very low to the ground, so it's very cute. You remember Randy Newman's song short People that was a big hit right back in the day. When somebody did a response to that called tall People. All I remember is the chorus was don't want no tall people, no basketball people.

1:07:07 Yeah, it's just something that you can't help at all. People judge you on it, they do. But only fourteen to fifteen percent of American men are actually six feet or taller. I thought it was higher than that, and ninety nine percent of American women are under six feet Wow. What about coupling like Michael and Linda, there is at least six inches of height difference between them. Yeah, I feel like that should matter. Not really, there is that We do have the one couple in her neighborhood that goes for a lock and he is like probably six foot four and she's a little tiny one. Yeah. Sometimes you will mistake her for like a child because it's really tiny. They look very happy.

1:07:49 Yeah, they're very adorable. The other day we were talking and it surprised me when you said you were very observant sometimes, because I think I'm super observant, but I don't don't really think you are. But you did notice something new that I bought. I did you put it? There? Was like a snail, a little concrete snail statue that was in our front floor, But I think I noticed it like the day you put it up. You did well, it might have been the next day. But I have a question for you, because you're so observant, what color shirt was I wearing when it was charted this episode? I have absolutely no idea. Did I change my shirt or am I wearing the same shirt? Yes, I have absolutely no idea, no clear episode. I'm such a bad You did this intentionally.

1:08:37 Intentionally I started wearing a pink tank top and then I changed to a brown tank top. Wow, and I'm currently wearing a black tank top. It's a while to record. It takes us a couple of hours usually, and we take bathroom breaks. So well done, Tina, bravo. I salute you. But now I have a question for you. There is something in the house that is different that if you are so observant, you would definitely have noticed, and you haven't said anything about it. And I'm pretty sure you would have said something about it. Is it your Nope?

1:09:18 No, you really have no idea. If you walk down the hall from our bedroom to our recording studio, it would be very plain to you. I'll be right back. Tina is walking down the hall and I think what she is about to find out is that a week ago I actually patched and painted the wall that has been bugging her for a long time. And here she's coming back. Now she's coming back. But it literally has been a week since I did that. And I did it, and you're back. I did it that here here's to kick her up. Amazing. Thank you. That was so wonderful that you did that. But the thing that was bothering me was the pictures are too high? Did you lower the pictures? I would have noticed. Bravo to you. Wow, well played.

1:10:07 It's funny because the day we had the conversation about being observant was I had done it. I had done it when you were out that day, and I was thinking to myself, I wonder how long it will take. That is really funny. I think now I can't guarantee it, but I think if you would have lowered the pictures, I would have noticed. But that was the thing that it's hard to explain, but yeah, we put these pictures always about a year ago, and I was like, when you put them up, I was like, oh, I think they're too high. I have a thing about art being too high, and I was going to ask you to lower them. And I said, oh, you know what, it's okay. I'll probably adjust and I have it in the year and I'm like, I. Think, well, now I'm going to wait until you least suspect it. I'm going to lower them and we're going to see how I think we have both come to the conclusion that we are both selectively observant.

1:10:54 I have not come to that conclusion. Well, thank you all so much for hanging out with us today. Please rate, review, follow, and subscribe. Find us at lovemarykill dot com or on social media. Or the Jokes and the We'll tell your jokes at another episode. We've only gotten a few, but please send us. If you have a good joke that you want us to hear, go to Lovemarykill dot com. Leave us a voice message with you telling the joke. Now, are you playing the people's voices without their fashion? We have their permission? You sure we have their permission? When you leave a voice message, it explicitly says Tina and Rich may. Use this, so yeah in big letters.

1:11:35 I don't know. I'm sure no one will have a problem with us playing their joke. I would, and please consider supporting us on Patreon. Go to patreon dot com slash Love, Marykill. We have just one tier, five dollars a month, and you get early ad free access plus a monthly bonus episode until next time. Don't care a husband and don't kill your wife. Don't kill your husband, don't kill your wife. To pick the cott