July 13, 2026

Linda Opdycke and Mark Stover

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When renowned dog trainer Mark Stover vanished from his Washington home in October 2009, investigators were confronted with a baffling mystery. His loyal protection dog had been shot three times in the head. Bloodstains inside the house appeared to have been cleaned with bleach. Mark's car was abandoned miles away. But there was one glaring problem—there was no body. As detectives unraveled the case, suspicion fell on Michiel Oakes, the new boyfriend of Mark's ex-wife, Linda Opdycke. What followed was a twisting investigation involving stalking allegations, anonymous tips, missing evidence, and a claim of self-defense that would divide opinions for years to come.

Today's snack: Pull-apart bread

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WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Tina and I'm rich If there's one thing

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that we've learned over twenty years of marriage, it's.

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That some days you'll feel like killing.

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Your wife and some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hello Richard, Hello Tina.

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How are you?

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I am doing it? How are you?

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I am a little out of breath because I literally

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just finished this case and then I had something in

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the oven. You know how that busy, busy, busy running around.

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Before we go any further, I wanted to give apologies

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to Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey. We were not able

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to make it to the wedding of our rigorous recording schedule,

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but sounds like it was a great time. Yeah, heartiest,

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congratulations to them.

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I'm a little sorry we missed it.

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I am bummed that we have not seen her wedding

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dress yet. I checked, like People magazine like four hundred

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times over the weekend because I really thought that she

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would release the take time that she has it.

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But there must have been really tight security too, like

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from keeping people from bringing phones.

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In all could bring Yeah, there are you know, some

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some big big names there and no phones were allowed.

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But I think it sounds like it was a lot

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of fun and we wish them. Well, do you have

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anything you need to get off your chest, anything you

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want to talk about.

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No, I'm pretty good right now.

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Well, I left my first Amazon review this week.

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Oh yeah, you did, didn't you.

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It's funny because when I say this, everyone's gonna be like, well,

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we know it wasn't a five star review. We bought

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these hummingbird feeders. I've actually bought four of them, and

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you are going to think that I'm really dumb that

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I've bought this item four times when it doesn't work.

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But it's like the perfect design, right. We like to

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see the hummingbirds in our kitchen window.

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And it's got like suction cups. It sticks on the windows.

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It's a really good design, very nice design, except for

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the fact that it doesn't leak.

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Yeah, and then in the description it says that the

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humming bird feeder is leak proof, so you think, oh, okay,

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and the manufactory does stand by their product. I emailed

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this is probably really boring, but I'll finish it up

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really quick. I emailed them and they were like, oh sure,

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send us a video and some still pictures and we'll

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replace the piece that it's leaking from. So that was

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kind of a pain in the butt. Have they replaced

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they honestly, I forgot to email them back. But we

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have hummingbirds that are you know, they're hungry. They're hungry,

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and I feel really bad. I'm still putting the feeder out,

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but it's dripping.

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Doesn't it feel cathartic to leave a bad review? Though

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I've left I've only probably left four or five Amazon

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reviews in my life, and they've all been bad because

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that's the only time I get, really, I really.

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Get any joy from it, because they don't really I

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don't know. I don't like to leave negative things out

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in the world.

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But I don't normally either, But when a product is bad,

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I really it makes me mad.

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But I'm ordering a new system where the section cup

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just goes on your window and then I'm just going

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to get a regular feeder, one that's not like the

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one that's meant for Do you know what I'm talking?

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Not really, But I trust your judgment.

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And I look forward to okay, because there are hummingbirds,

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like we have a lot of them that can anyway,

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speaking of hummingbird food, good transition snap, and I think

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you're going to really like Okay, but I made dinner

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because I feel badly that I haven't cooked for you.

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I'm not sure how you are still existing because I've not.

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Been cooking when I'm hanging in there, though, Hang.

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On just a second, I need to present this to you.

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Are you ready?

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I am definitely favorites. I think, oh this is uh

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it's called what's.

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It called pull apart bread?

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Well apart bread. I lovell apart pull apart bread.

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I've made it hundreds of times, but I don't think

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we've ever made it for the podcast. Do you want to

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try a piece really quick?

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Definitely?

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What did you think the pull apart bread?

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I loved it. It was great. I just loved the flavor.

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It's so buttery, and it's such a great residence. Inside

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is so soft, and the outside has this nice, you know,

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crisp sort of crust to it, and it's just delicious.

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Make it in a bunt pan. You can do it

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in a loaf pan, but I do in a bunt pan.

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And you put butter on the bottom of the bunt

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pan and then you put your dough in there, so

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the bottom of the bread gets all nice and crispy.

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I can also make it savory. You could put I

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think I've done this before, where you can put like

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tomato sauce and like cheese and pepperoni in it, so

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it's like an Italian you know, pizza type dish. Or

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you can make it like a cinnamon roll type thing too.

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So flexible and I assume you're going to put the recipe.

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Show notes excellent. Today, I'm going to tell you the

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story of Linda Opdyke and Mark Stover. Before we get started,

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I want to give a content warning. This episode contains

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one scene involving violence towards a dog. Please listen with care.

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When Amber Baker arrived at work at Mark Stover's dog

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Kettle in the morning of October twenty eighth, two thousand

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and nine, something felt wrong. The dogs were unusually agitated,

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barking non stop. Amber had worked from Mark for five

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years and considered him a father figure. She tried calling him,

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but there was there's no answer. As she walked toward

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the house, she noticed blood on the driveway. She reached

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for the back door, but it was locked. That stopped

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her in her tracks. Mark always left the back door

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unlocked so his employees could use the bathroom. A feeling

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that she couldn't explain told her not to go inside,

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so she turned around and went back to work. Later

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that morning, another employee, Stephanie Poor, arrived at the kennel.

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She immediately noticed something else that seemed out of place.

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Mark's white station wagon was backed up to the house. Mark,

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wearing his signature hat and heavy coat, made several trips

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between the house and the car before speeding down the driveway.

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Stephanie waved, but Mark didn't wave back. That wasn't like him.

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He always drove slowly on his property in case one

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of the dogs got loose. A short time later, Stephanie

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went to the house to use the bathroom. She noticed

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spots of blood on the front walk, and when she

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opened the door, she was met by the strong smell

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of bleach. She saw bloodstains in the foyer and more

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blood on a rug. It was unsettling, but there were

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no obvious signs of a struggle ding. Mark's dog had

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recently undergone surgery to remove a tumor, so Stephanie assumed

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the blood had come from the dog. Uneasy, but believing

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there was a reasonable explanation, she returned to work. Neither

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woman called the police. By the following morning, though Mark

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still hadn't been seen. Although Mark Stover had an arsenal

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of weapons at his disposal, his greatest source of protection

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and peace of mind was his dog, Dingo or Ding,

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a Belgian Malanoi. Belgian Malanoi can be loyal, loving family dogs,

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but they are generally not suited for the average household

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with their intense energy, high prey drive, and constant need

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for mental stimulation. They thrive with experienced handlers and are

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often used in military and police work. Ding was highly

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trained as a protection dog and was fiercely devoted to Mark.

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I don't think I'm familiar with that breed. I'm assuming

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it's a larger dog.

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It's about the size of a German shepherd, and Ding

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looks a lot like a German Shepherd too. Ding was

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the only dog who lived inside the house with Mark

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and would have done anything to keep him safe from harm.

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Mark rarely locked his doors because he knew Ding was

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always on duty. On October twenty ninth, two thousand and nine,

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the day after Amber and Stephanie first since something was wrong,

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Stephanie spotted Ding standing in the car port near the

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back door, growling lowly. It was highly unusual for her

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to be outside unless she was with Mark. As Stephanie

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got closer, she realized that Ding was in distress. Even

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though Stephanie was an employee and neighbor, not just anyone

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could approach the protective dog. She tried calling Mark on

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his cell phone again, but there was still no answer.

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Stephanie reached out to a former employee who Ding knew

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and trusted. Together, they were able to get her into

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a vehicle and rush her to the veterinarian. Ding had

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recently undergone surgery to remove a tumor, so everyone initially

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assumed that she was suffering complications from the procedure, but

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the x rays revealed something far more disturbing. Someone had

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shot Ding three times in the head with a twenty

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two caliber Browning.

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Oh my goodness.

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Now it was time to get the police involved. Mark

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Stover's fiancee, Teresa vaugh Michelle, had already contacted the Skaggott

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County Sheriff's office earlier that day after she hadn't heard

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from him in more than thirty six hours. Mark was

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a disciplined man with a predictable routine. Every morning at

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eight am, he called Teresa. He would never miss that

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call two days in a row unless something was terribly wrong.

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His deputies began searching for Mark. Theresa couldn't shake something

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that he had been telling her for months. He believed

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he was going to die. Despite taking precautions, he was

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convinced there was nothing he could do to stop it.

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It's crazy to me how many times people have premonitions

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of their own death. Like, I'm not a big believer

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in psychic phenomenon, but that seems it seems like it

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happens too often to dismiss.

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Mark was a very interesting guy. We're going to go

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into his background more now. But he had like dog senses.

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I don't know if dogs predict throughout.

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Deaths, but the dogs are very sensitive to things.

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Theodore Mark Stover was born on March eighteenth, nineteen fifty two,

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in Seattle, Washington. He loved being outdoors, hunting, fishing, and

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spending time with his dogs. He was also a student

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of history, a gun collector whose collection eventually grew to

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more than thirty firearms. He was a talented cook and eccentric,

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a thinker and an avid reader, but he was also cantankerous, stern, arrogant,

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and combative. Mark wasn't the kind of person people felt

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neutral about. They either admired him or found him difficult

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to be around. Tragedy was a constant throughout Mark's childhood.

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He was just eighteen months old when his father died.

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His mother remarried and gave birth to a daughter, who

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died shortly after birth. Years later, Mark's half brother was

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killed in a car crash. After his mother's second marriage

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ended in divorce, Mark's mother married a third time to

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an abusive alcoholic who later died of cancer. Death and

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hardship were recurring themes in the Stover household.

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That is a lot of treasure for one household.

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Mark was a rebellious teenager after he was expelled from

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high school at age sixteen for smoking marijuana. He never

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went back. His future seemed uncertain after his stepfather's death.

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A family friend gave the struggling family a German shepherd

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puppy they named Gunter. It might seem like an unusual

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gift for a family struggling to put food on the table,

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but it turned out to be the best thing that

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ever happened to Mark. Mark and Gunter formed an inseparable bond.

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A veterinarian friend recognized Mark's natural ability with dogs and

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encouraged him to train Gunter for search and rescue work

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with the Washington State Search and Rescue Canine Unit. Mark

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threw himself into the challenge, and before long, he and

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Gunter were traveling around the country assisting with search and

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rescue missions. The work gave Mark a sense of purpose

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and set him on the path that would define the

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rest of his life. Fascinated by animal behavior, Mark studied

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the work of behavioral psychologist BF Skinner and developed his

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own philosophy of dog training. He had a remarkable gift

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for working with dogs, especially those other trainers considered beyond help.

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Mark's friend Andrea Fernilovitch told Forty eight Hours that he

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was more dog than human. She said he would get

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down on all fours, look a dog directly in the eyes,

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and somehow calm even the most ferocious animals. Friend said

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that Mark had a knack for rehabilitating aggressive dogs that

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others had given up on, often saving them from youth

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in Asia. He believed that success came from understanding canine

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behavior and packed dynamics, rather than simply teaching obedience. Mark

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often woreked, dark sunglasses because he believed they made it

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more difficult for both people and dogs to read his eyes.

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Although his exterior could be gruff, he also had a

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magnetic personality that drew both people and dogs to him.

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Friends say he projected quiet confidence and naturally assumed the

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role of the pax alpha. A former client and friend

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told The Seattle Times he was a wonderfully warm human

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being with a wry and quirky sense of humor, and

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the most knowledgeable dog trainer that I have ever met.

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Another simply said, I don't know how to explain it.

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It was like he spoke dog. Around Skaggett County, Mark

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was instantly recognizable despite owning a Porsche and a BMW.

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His favorite vehicle was a decrepit white station wagon he

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affectionately called the dog Alac. Mark's niece, Julia Simmons later

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joked that there was more dog hair than carpet inside

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the station wagon, and then it permanently smelt like a

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wet dog. Wearing his trademark white brimmed hat, he was

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a familiar sight driving through town with dogs riding beside him.

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Linda Opdyke came from a world very diffy from Marx.

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A statuesque blonde with a love of the outdoors and animals,

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she was the heiress to one of Washington State's wealthiest families.

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Her parents, Nancy Corbin and Wallace Wally Updike, helped build

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Chateau Saint Michel into Washington's premiere winery. The family also

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had financial interests in K two Ski Corporation and Jan Sport,

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and were among the wealthiest and most influential people in

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the state. Despite growing up with extraordinary privilege, Linda wasn't

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drawn to country clubs or city life. She loved horses

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and became an accomplished equestrian, competing at a high level.

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Friends described her as intelligent, independent, and adventurous. She enjoyed

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the outdoors as much as Mark Stover, and their shared

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love of animals would eventually bring them together. In nineteen

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eighty two, the Updikes purchased Kickett Island for one point

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four million dollars. Kickett Island is a small wooded island

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in Washington's Puget Sound, about fifty five miles north of Seattle,

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covering roughly eighty acres. About the size of seventy football fields.

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It feels like a world apart. Connected to Fidalgo Island

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by a narrow strip of land, It's accessible by car,

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yet once you cross onto the island, the rest of

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the world seems to disappear. Quiet beaches, towering evergreens, and

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sweeping views of Skaggot Bay create a feeling of complete seclusion.

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For nearly three decades, the island's solitude belonged almost entirely

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to Nancy and Wallace Updyke. Their home was the island's

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only residence. Despite being only a short drive from the city,

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Kickett Island felt like a private retreat hidden in plain sight.

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As an expert real estate developer, Walley could have transformed

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it into an exclusive waterfront development. Instead, he chose to

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preserve its natural beauty. The Updikes saw themselves as stewards

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of the land, carefully maintaining the island for years before

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eventually selling it to the Swinomish Indian Tribal Community and

281
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Washington State Parks so it would remain protected for generations

282
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to come. Linda met Mark Stover in the early nineteen

283
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nineties while looking for someone to train one of her dogs.

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She found his name in the yellow pages. Their first

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meeting wasn't exactly love at first sight. Linda later admitted

286
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that she found Mark off putting. He struck her as arrogant, opinionated,

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and prone to angry outbursts. But beneath his rough exterior,

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she also saw something else. He was intelligent, witty, and

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unlike anyone she had ever met. Despite their different backgrounds

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and the thirteen year age difference between them, their relationship

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blossomed into love thirteen years. Was she thirteen years younger

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or older?

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She was younger.

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In nineteen ninety two, Linda convinced Mark to go into

295
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business with her, opening a dog training and boarding facility

296
00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:55.080
on her family's property on Kickett Island. They called it

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Island Dog Adventures. It was unlike any kennel most people

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had ever seen. Rather than spending their days confined to runs,

299
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the dogs roamed the island, swam in Puget Sound, and

300
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played on the beaches. According to the Seattle Times, the

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kennel even offered canine massages, pedicures, raw meat diets, and

302
00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:20.039
customized weight loss programs. It was a luxury resort for dogs,

303
00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:22.840
years before that concept became common.

304
00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:25.679
I hope that I come back as a celebrity dog.

305
00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:28.000
If I'm reincarnated, I know that sounds like such a

306
00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:30.759
great life running around the islands, swimming in the sound.

307
00:16:31.279 --> 00:16:34.639
The business flourished. By two thousand and two, Island Dog

308
00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:37.919
Adventures was generating more than one million dollars a year.

309
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Mark's reputation as a dog trainer spread far beyond the

310
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Pacific Northwest. Known by many as the dog Whisperer, he

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became the trainer people sought out when other trainers had failed.

312
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His client list eventually included rock stars, professional athletes, business executives,

313
00:16:55.639 --> 00:16:59.440
and Hollywood celebrities. Over the years, he worked with the

314
00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:03.480
dogs of filmmaker Cameron Crow, Pearl jam frontman Eddie Vedder,

315
00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:09.440
Seattle Mariner's legend, Ichiro Suzuki, and former Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz,

316
00:17:09.640 --> 00:17:12.720
to name just a few. But success came at a

317
00:17:12.759 --> 00:17:16.400
personal cost. Mark and Linda poured themselves into the business,

318
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working long hours and rarely taking a day off. Friends

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00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:23.960
said the kennel became their entire lives. After more than

320
00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:27.160
eleven years together, the couple married in May two thousand

321
00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:30.079
and two in the presidential Suite of the Four Seasons

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00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:33.759
hotel in Las Vegas. Linda was thirty eight, Mark was

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00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:37.359
fifty eleven years together before getting married. So that was

324
00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:39.720
just because they were so busy with the business, that

325
00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:42.640
just didn't occur to them to get married, you know why.

326
00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:45.400
I think they just took their time. Sometimes. I think

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in these long term relationships, the wedding happens because someone

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00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:51.799
is maybe not happy in the relationship and they think

329
00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:55.079
that might give them more security to think that's possible.

330
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I think that's certainly possible. Not everyone celebrated the marriage. Linda.

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00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:02.799
His mother, Nancy, later told Forty eight Hours that she

332
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had opposed the relationship from the beginning. She believed Mark

333
00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:10.759
was controlling and had gradually isolated Linda from her family

334
00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:13.759
and friends. She tried to convince her daughter not to

335
00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:17.599
marry him. According to Linda and her family, those concerns

336
00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:22.559
only intensified after the wedding. They said Mark became increasingly controlling.

337
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Despite their financial success, He was extremely frugal and tightly

338
00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:31.839
controlled household spending. Linda wanted to slow down, enjoy life,

339
00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:36.799
and eventually move off kicket Island. Mark refused. Over time,

340
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Mark also became intensely protective of the island itself. He

341
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:43.960
viewed it as his domain and was known to confront

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00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:49.200
trespassers personally, sometimes accompanied by his dogs and sometimes carrying

343
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a firearm. On one occasion, a man named Danny Jensen

344
00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:56.559
was digging for clams near Kickett Island when Mark approached

345
00:18:56.599 --> 00:18:58.799
him with a gun and ordered him to leave.

346
00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:04.079
This is private property, but people thought it was, you know,

347
00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:06.960
a park where they could go and do things. Yeah,

348
00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:08.759
it is now, but it wasn't then.

349
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Was there any indication that Linda's parents didn't like Mark

350
00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:14.880
because he came from kind of a different social station,

351
00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:18.319
because that seems like that would be a fairly common objection.

352
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I would guess that was part partially the case. Well,

353
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Linda did seem like she was a different kind of woman,

354
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Like she wasn't afraid to work hard, and she liked

355
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being with the animals, and so I think, and I

356
00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:32.599
don't know if her parents were you know, hoity toity

357
00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:36.160
rich people either. They had tons of money, but you know,

358
00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:39.079
I don't think that there's any evidence saying that they were.

359
00:19:39.559 --> 00:19:41.960
Right that they would look down on Mark for being

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coming from a different status.

361
00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:46.359
I think it might have been his personality because while

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he was sometimes like really funny and charismatic.

363
00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:51.759
He was also he could be a little cantankerous.

364
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:53.160
Yeah, definitely a curmudgeon.

365
00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:55.079
We'll be back after a break.

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On her forty first birthday in September two thousand five,

367
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Linda reached her breaking point. Tired of what she described

368
00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:13.759
as Mark's increasingly controlling behavior, she filed for divorce. Mark

369
00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:17.039
refused to accept it. He wouldn't even hire an attorney.

370
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Linda later said that he shook with rage when she

371
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told him that she was leaving. Mark warned Linda that

372
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if she left, he would ruin her life. Hoping for

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00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:30.240
a fresh start, she quietly moved to Winthrop, Washington, without

374
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:33.319
telling Mark where she was going. She left Island Dog

375
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Adventures in his hands, and, in her account, she walked

376
00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:40.480
away without asking for anything, but The Seattle Times later

377
00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:43.480
reported that as part of the divorce settlement, Mark paid

378
00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:46.599
Linda one hundred seventy five thousand dollars for her share

379
00:20:46.599 --> 00:20:50.240
of the business. She also received an suv and a

380
00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:53.319
horse trailer in the settlement, while Mark retained the Porsche

381
00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:56.720
BMW and the kennel. Litter returned to one of her

382
00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:01.279
earliest passions, horses. She immersed herself from the equestrian world,

383
00:21:01.400 --> 00:21:04.279
spending as much time as she could writing and competing,

384
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:07.880
hoping to build a new life for herself away from Mark.

385
00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:09.119
And they never had children.

386
00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:13.119
Right, No, But according to Linda, Mark refused to let go.

387
00:21:13.640 --> 00:21:16.680
She said that he called her incessantly, sometimes as many

388
00:21:16.759 --> 00:21:21.400
as one hundred times in a single day. He left angry,

389
00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:25.680
profanity laced voicemail messages. She believed that he was following

390
00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:29.559
her too, monitoring her movements and even listening in on

391
00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:33.200
her phone conversations. Although the divorce became final in two

392
00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:37.440
thousand and seven, Linda said the harassment continued. At one point,

393
00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:39.640
she claimed that Mark made it clear that he could

394
00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:42.599
get into her house whenever he wanted. He even took

395
00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:45.880
her private journal. Then came one of the incidents that

396
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.160
frightened her the most. One night, Linda looked outside and

397
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:52.279
saw Mark crouched in her backyard holding a rifle pointed

398
00:21:52.279 --> 00:21:55.319
towards her house. Later that same night, she said, he

399
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:59.039
entered her home and begged her to reconcile. Linda refused

400
00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:01.799
and called the police, telling them that she feared for

401
00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:02.279
her life.

402
00:22:02.759 --> 00:22:05.400
That's terrifying looking out into your backyard at night and

403
00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:06.759
seeing someone out there with a gun.

404
00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:10.319
She had moved and didn't tell him where she was,

405
00:22:10.359 --> 00:22:14.839
and somehow he found her. Linda began dating John Bonica,

406
00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:17.319
who had served as Mark's best man at their wedding.

407
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:21.400
The relationship only intensified the conflict between Linda and Mark.

408
00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:26.200
One night, Mark surreptitiously watched the couple from outside John's home.

409
00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:30.039
The following day, he confronted Linda with intimate details what

410
00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:33.920
she and John had been doing inside the house. Alarmed,

411
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:37.000
John ended the relationship, telling Linda that he didn't need

412
00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:40.400
the drama and he feared for his family's safety. Whether

413
00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:44.279
every allegation was true or not, one thing is indisputable.

414
00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:47.960
Linda genuinely believed that she was in serious danger. She

415
00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:51.599
enrolled in self defense classes, installed a security system and

416
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:55.000
a safe room in her house, and also strategically placed

417
00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:59.799
twenty firearms throughout her home, including assault rifles, and she

418
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:03.799
also obtained a new protection dog trained by someone other

419
00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:07.839
than Mark. As the relationship continued to unravel, Mark's messages

420
00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.640
became troubling. In one email, he wrote, this may be

421
00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:14.640
my last birthday. I don't know what I'm about anymore,

422
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:17.799
but I'm about to give up. Not long afterward, Linda

423
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:21.480
called the police after discovering Mark had gone through her trash.

424
00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:24.640
He was arrested and later resolved the stocking charge by

425
00:23:24.759 --> 00:23:27.160
entering an Elford plea. Do you remember I always feel

426
00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:27.799
like we have to explain it.

427
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:29.559
Yeah, we haven't talked about it one in a while.

428
00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:32.160
But an Elford plea allows a defendant to maintain his

429
00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:35.799
innocence while acknowledging that prosecutors have enough evidence that a

430
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:39.680
jury would likely convict them. The court sentence marked to

431
00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:43.279
two years of probation, thirty days of electronic home monitoring,

432
00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:47.000
in a year of anger management counseling. He was also

433
00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:50.160
ordered to surrender all of his firearms and stay away

434
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:53.319
from Blinda. Linda said that the conviction did little to

435
00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:54.480
allay her fears.

436
00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:56.160
He had a lot of firearms?

437
00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:59.279
Right did? He had? At least thirty? Some people say

438
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:01.119
that he might have get given them to a friend,

439
00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:03.359
but I'm not really sure what happened to all of them.

440
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:07.000
But he was really unhappy about that Ottawagin. Following his conviction,

441
00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:10.279
Mark gave Linda one last dig despite a court order

442
00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:13.400
requiring that she remain on his health insurance until the

443
00:24:13.400 --> 00:24:17.480
divorce was finalized, he canceled her coverage. In an email,

444
00:24:17.559 --> 00:24:20.480
he cautioned her, next time, do not call the cops

445
00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:24.039
on the guy that controls your health care. Linda was

446
00:24:24.079 --> 00:24:27.200
granted a restraining order against Mark. Court records showed that

447
00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:30.759
another former romantic partner of Mars had also been granted

448
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:34.720
a restraining order against him previously. According to those close

449
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:38.240
to the case, after Mark's conviction, his contact with her

450
00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:41.480
largely ended. By then, life appeared to be moving in

451
00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:45.119
different directions for both of them. The Opdyke family informed

452
00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:48.680
Mark that he would have to relocate Island Dog Adventures

453
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:52.559
because they intended to sell Kicktt Island. Although he initially

454
00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:56.480
threatened legal action, arguing he had invested heavily in improving

455
00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:59.720
the property, he ultimately moved the business to a new

456
00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:03.480
home near Anna Cordies. He had also fell in love again.

457
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:06.880
Mark was in a relationship with Teresa vau Michel, and

458
00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:11.400
not long before his disappearance, the two became engaged. In

459
00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:14.359
interviews with forty eight Hours, Mark's sister, Vicky Simmons and

460
00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:18.279
his niece Julia rejected Linda's portrayal of Mark as controlling

461
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:22.559
and abusive. Instead, they believed Linda had become hostile towards

462
00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:26.359
Mark after the relationship deteriorated, and claimed that she had

463
00:25:26.359 --> 00:25:31.079
threatened both his business and his reputation. Julia, who acknowledged

464
00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:34.640
that she had never actually met Linda in person, nevertheless

465
00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:39.799
described her as intelligent, manipulative, and vindictive. Vicky also defended

466
00:25:39.799 --> 00:25:42.880
her brother, insisting that while Mark could certainly be difficult

467
00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:46.720
and opinionated, he was not the abusive man that Linda described.

468
00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:51.000
As with many contentious divorces, the truth depends, in part

469
00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:54.400
on whose story you believe. The relationship between the former

470
00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:57.279
spouses had become so bitter that each side viewed the

471
00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:00.640
other as the aggressor. Whatever had won and drawing them

472
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:04.359
together was long gone. Both Mark and Linda had done

473
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:07.359
things that seemed to provoke and antagonize the other, and

474
00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:10.359
the bitterness between them only continue to grow.

475
00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:12.799
It makes me sad when a couple splits up like

476
00:26:12.839 --> 00:26:15.319
this and they can't just go their separate ways like

477
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:17.799
they have. They have no kids, they have nothing that

478
00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:20.720
causes them to have to interact with each other. Yeah,

479
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:22.559
just get on with your life. You've got you know,

480
00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:23.000
you've got this.

481
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:24.480
I think it's really hard to let go.

482
00:26:24.759 --> 00:26:26.839
I know, I guess so, but it's just it makes

483
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:27.519
me sad.

484
00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:29.000
I mean, would if I said I was going to

485
00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:31.000
leave you tomorrow, would you be like, okay, see you

486
00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:32.240
have a good five byebye?

487
00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:34.880
Of course not. But that's you know, it's a little

488
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:37.559
bit different. We've been together for a long time, We've

489
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:39.359
got kids together, you know.

490
00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:42.279
I mean, I think regardless of the situation, it's it's

491
00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:44.519
hard to let go. And there's always a lot of

492
00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:49.079
emotions involved. Yeah, a lot of time it's anger and Yeah.

493
00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:51.400
Although Mark appeared to be moving on with his life

494
00:26:51.400 --> 00:26:55.480
and by all accounts, respecting the restraining order, Linda remained

495
00:26:55.599 --> 00:26:59.559
deeply uneasy. Years of what she described as threats, stalking,

496
00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:03.279
and indation had left her convinced that Mark still posed

497
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:06.279
a danger. She struggled to believe that she could ever

498
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:09.440
truly let her guard down. Determined to make her home

499
00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:13.640
as secure as possible, Linda hired a security consultant named

500
00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:18.359
Michael Oakes to evaluate and upgrade her security system. He

501
00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:23.000
installed additional surveillance cameras and made recommendations to better protect

502
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:27.920
the property. Michael was an interesting man born in nineteen

503
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:31.160
sixty eight. He was the youngest of four children. Friends

504
00:27:31.160 --> 00:27:36.440
described him as intelligent, thoughtful, and intensely curious. Over the years,

505
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:40.279
he had started several businesses, including a paintball facility, held

506
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:44.759
multiple patents for his inventions, wrote magazine articles, and even

507
00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:48.920
won a literary award for an unpublished novel. Professionally, he

508
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:53.960
specialized in security consulting and tactical training, teaching survival skills,

509
00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:58.839
close quarters combat, and defensive tactics to military personnel, law

510
00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:03.200
enforcement officers in swat teams. He was also a devoted father.

511
00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:06.759
Michael had four children from his first marriage, and after

512
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:10.720
that marriage ended, became their primary caregiver while continuing to

513
00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:14.279
work from home whenever possible. His second marriage, to Jennifer

514
00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:17.799
Thompson lasted only a year, ending in divorce in two

515
00:28:17.799 --> 00:28:21.839
thousand and eight. As Michael worked to improve Linda's home security,

516
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:25.000
she confided in him about her fears and the years

517
00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:28.160
of stress that she said Mark had caused her. The

518
00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:31.359
two quickly discovered they had much in common. They shared

519
00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:34.839
a love of the outdoors, horses, sports books, and a

520
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:39.039
deep appreciation for living life on their own terms. Before long,

521
00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:42.920
the professional relationship blossomed into romance. And Michael and his

522
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:46.880
four children moved into Linda's home. Both later described falling

523
00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:49.920
deeply in love. They believed they had found the kind

524
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:53.039
of once in a lifetime relationship that many people spend

525
00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:56.720
their entire lives searching for. They spoke of being soulmates,

526
00:28:56.960 --> 00:28:59.960
best friends who share the same values, the same passions,

527
00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:03.480
and the same vision for their future. Linda later said

528
00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:06.880
their love story was one for the books. Physically, they

529
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:10.359
made an unlikely couple. Linda stood nearly six feet tall,

530
00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:13.680
while Michael was just five feet six, but neither of

531
00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:16.640
them seemed to notice. To Michael and Linda, they had

532
00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:18.920
found the person that they had been waiting for. For

533
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:20.920
both of them, it felt as if they had been

534
00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:26.440
given a second chance at happiness. Jennifer Thompson, Michael's second wife,

535
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:28.559
painted a very different picture of the man that she

536
00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:32.440
had once married. She described Michael as intelligent and thoughtful

537
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:35.519
and outwardly gentle, but said that he had an intense

538
00:29:35.640 --> 00:29:39.240
need to protect the people he cared about. According to Jennifer,

539
00:29:39.319 --> 00:29:41.599
he viewed the world in stark terms of right and

540
00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:45.640
wrong and believed some people were beyond redemption and deserved

541
00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:50.039
to be taken out a dexter Morgan mentality. Jennifer also

542
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:52.839
said that towards the end of their marriage, Michael told

543
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.559
her that he was considering accepting a dangerous job. Jennifer

544
00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:59.640
recalled him, saying that a father had approached him about

545
00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:03.200
protect acting his daughter, a woman named Linda, from her

546
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:08.200
abusive ex husband. Jennifer was deeply troubled by what Michael described.

547
00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:12.160
She forbade him from taking the job. Later, Jennifer said

548
00:30:12.200 --> 00:30:15.039
the conversations became a major factor in the breakdown of

549
00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:19.119
their marriage. As his relationship with Linda deepened, Michael came

550
00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:22.440
to believe that Mark Stover possessed a serious threat to Linda,

551
00:30:22.759 --> 00:30:26.400
to himself, and eventually to his children as well.

552
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:29.880
So this job he was considering accepting this was to

553
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:31.680
guard Linda from Mark.

554
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:35.279
Well, the job was actually to take Mark out. Oh,

555
00:30:36.279 --> 00:30:39.359
but of course, no one other than Jennifer admits that

556
00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:40.599
this ever happened.

557
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:44.440
Okay. On August third, two thousand and nine, the Skaggitt

558
00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:48.920
County Sheriff's Office received an anonymous phone call. Speaking quietly,

559
00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:52.279
almost in a whisper, the caller warned deputies that a

560
00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:55.200
drug deal was about to take place the following morning.

561
00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:59.359
The man transporting the drugs, the caller claimed was Mark Stover.

562
00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:03.519
He also cautioned that Mark was armed and dangerous. The

563
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:07.200
next day, deputies located Mark and conducted a traffic stop.

564
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:10.359
During a search of his vehicle, they discovered a magnetic

565
00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:14.160
box attached to the underside of the car. Inside was

566
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:18.119
marijuana and a small amount of cocaine. Mark was stunned.

567
00:31:18.519 --> 00:31:22.240
He immediately insisted the drugs weren't his and told deputies

568
00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:25.279
someone had planted them in an effort to frame him.

569
00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:29.799
Investigators believed him. They concluded there wasn't enough evidence to

570
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:33.519
show Mark knowingly possessed the drugs and released him without

571
00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:37.079
making an arrest. For Mark, the incident confirmed what he

572
00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:40.880
had feared for some time, someone he believed was trying

573
00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:44.240
to destroy him. Determined to find out who was behind it,

574
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:49.160
Mark hired private investigator Lee Herron. The Opdykes immediately rose

575
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:51.880
to the top of his list of suspects, but they

576
00:31:51.880 --> 00:31:54.599
weren't the only people he believed could have wanted to

577
00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:55.599
harm him.

578
00:31:55.680 --> 00:32:00.160
So this whole situation is just ridiculous. The call that

579
00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:04.079
this anonymous person made to the police, he was whispering

580
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:06.119
in the phone, and at one point the dispatcher's like,

581
00:32:06.279 --> 00:32:11.319
why are you whispering? He said, it's a very delicate matter,

582
00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:15.880
and the voice on the other line was definitely Michael.

583
00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:18.039
I suspected as much, your.

584
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:20.079
Intuition is spot on as always.

585
00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:23.319
By late October two thousand and nine, more than two

586
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:27.039
years had passed since Mark and Linda's divorce. Mark had

587
00:32:27.079 --> 00:32:30.920
relocated Island Dog Adventures after leaving Kike at Island and

588
00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:34.920
was engaged to Teresa vau Michelle. Linda was building a

589
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:38.240
new life with Michael Oakes and his children. Although Linda

590
00:32:38.319 --> 00:32:41.440
remained fearful of Mark, there was little indication that the

591
00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:44.960
two had been in contact for months. Then, Teresa called

592
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:49.039
the Skaggittt County Sheriff's office to report Mark missing. When

593
00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:52.400
a police officer arrived at Mark's home, what initially appeared

594
00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:56.039
to be a routine welfare check revealed that something alarming

595
00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:59.519
may have happened to him. Inside the house, she noticed

596
00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:03.359
a strong odor of bleach. Several faint bloodstains in the

597
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:06.599
hallway appeared as though someone had recently tried to clean

598
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:09.680
them up. There were additional blood spots in the bedroom,

599
00:33:09.799 --> 00:33:13.960
and the bathroom also smelled heavily of bleach. Mark's employees

600
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:18.000
told investigators that was highly unusual. Mark never cleaned with

601
00:33:18.039 --> 00:33:21.359
bleach because he believed the fumes were toxic to dogs.

602
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:26.759
As deputies continued their search, another clue surfaced. Later that day,

603
00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:30.000
Mark's white station wagon was found abandoned in the parking

604
00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:34.200
lot of the Swinnomish Northern Lights Casino, about three miles

605
00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:38.079
from his home. Surveillance footage later showed someone driving the

606
00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:41.440
car into the lot before walking away, but the driver's

607
00:33:41.480 --> 00:33:45.799
identity couldn't be determined. The driver's window had been left open,

608
00:33:46.200 --> 00:33:49.680
the keys were still in the ignition, Mark's glasses were

609
00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:53.200
inside the car, and there was blood, so they have

610
00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:57.480
no body at this point. Right later that morning, another

611
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:01.000
call came into the Skaggot County Sheriff's office. A woman

612
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:04.519
and her mother reported seeing two vehicles trespassing on the

613
00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:07.680
property of the Summit Park Grange, less than half a

614
00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:10.800
mile from Mark's home. The women watched as a man

615
00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:13.760
moved what appeared to be a large object wrapped in

616
00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:17.480
plastic from a white station wagon into a black suv.

617
00:34:18.360 --> 00:34:22.039
Once he finished, he drove away, leaving the station wagon behind.

618
00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:24.960
The witnesses had the presence of mind to write down

619
00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:28.679
the license plate numbers of both vehicles before calling police.

620
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:33.000
When officers arrived, only the white station wagon was left behind.

621
00:34:33.559 --> 00:34:37.159
The gate appeared to be locked. In reality, someone had

622
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:40.119
neatly cut through a single link in the chain, removed

623
00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:43.199
it just long enough to gain access, then threaded the

624
00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:47.199
chain back together before leaving. The deception was so subtle

625
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:50.840
that it wasn't immediately obvious how anyone had entered the property.

626
00:34:51.400 --> 00:34:55.280
A deputy quickly located the black suv parked nearby along

627
00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:57.920
the side of the road. He later said that the

628
00:34:57.960 --> 00:35:02.400
man appeared extremely nervous. The driver handed over his license

629
00:35:02.440 --> 00:35:06.760
to the deputy. It was Michael Oakes. Oakes explained that

630
00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:09.320
he had become lost and had pulled over to make

631
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:13.039
a phone call. Looking through the windows, the deputies noticed

632
00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:16.679
blankets and sleeping bags piled halphazardly in the back of

633
00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:20.000
the suv, but he had no legal basis to search

634
00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:24.119
the vehicle. After giving Oaks a warning about trespassing, the

635
00:35:24.159 --> 00:35:27.119
deputy allowed him to leave. At the time, no one

636
00:35:27.239 --> 00:35:30.519
knew how significant that encounter would become and what the

637
00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:31.800
deputy missed.

638
00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:35.320
So this happened on October twenty eight, two thousand and nine,

639
00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:37.719
the day that Mark disappeared.

640
00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:41.079
Okay got It. As investigators processed the crime scene, the

641
00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:46.079
evidence increasingly pointed to one man, Michael Oakes. Inside Mark's home,

642
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:50.320
investigators found blood belonging to Michael and shell casings that

643
00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:53.920
matched one of his handguns. Mark's blood was also found

644
00:35:53.960 --> 00:35:59.280
inside Michael's suv. Investigators searched the house but found no firearms,

645
00:35:59.360 --> 00:36:03.079
suggesting Dark had complied with the court order requiring him

646
00:36:03.079 --> 00:36:06.920
to surrender his guns after his stalking conviction. Detectives then

647
00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:11.920
began retracing Michael's movements. On October twenty eight, Surveillance cameras

648
00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:14.960
at Linda's home showed him leaving just after two thirty

649
00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:19.519
that morning. Michael later admitted driving to Anacorda's, arriving at

650
00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:22.679
Mark's home before six am. He said he had gone

651
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:25.400
there hoping to finally talk things out with Mark and

652
00:36:25.480 --> 00:36:28.920
put years of conflict behind them, Knowing Mark had once

653
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:32.079
owned dozens of firearms and believing him to be dangerous.

654
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:36.199
Michael wore a kevlar vest beneath his clothing and carried

655
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:41.199
two handguns. Investigators also discovered that before driving to Anacorda's,

656
00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:45.440
Michael had stopped at Walmart. According to a receipt recovered

657
00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:49.639
from his suv, he purchased an anchor chain, three ankle weights,

658
00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:54.800
camouflage clothing, a backpack, and shin guards. Later that morning,

659
00:36:54.840 --> 00:36:58.960
at nine forty three, surveillance cameras captured Mark's white station

660
00:36:59.079 --> 00:37:02.199
wagon a road driving at a Lowe's home improvement store.

661
00:37:02.840 --> 00:37:06.639
The driver was Michael Oakes. Inside, he purchased a pair

662
00:37:06.679 --> 00:37:10.440
of bolt cutters. Investigators believed they were used to cut

663
00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:14.239
the chain securing the gate at the Summit Park Grange.

664
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:17.760
Later that afternoon, at four fifty one, Michael returned to

665
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:21.599
the same lows this time driving his black Suzuki SUV,

666
00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:24.559
and returned the bolt cutters for a refund.

667
00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:25.519
Who does that?

668
00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:28.800
Yeah, that doesn't see a lot of people do. Just

669
00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:30.679
doesn't seem like the smartest move in the world.

670
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:33.239
One thing about this case, it was this happened in

671
00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:36.280
two thousand and nine, but all the video surveillance was

672
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:40.800
pretty clear. Really, so that tells me that today, like,

673
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:43.480
how many cameras are you spotted up? Oh, yes, day

674
00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:45.360
and it must be really really clear.

675
00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:49.480
Yeah, I would think so. Court documents show investigators recovered

676
00:37:49.559 --> 00:37:53.760
several other items from Michael's suv, including a backpack matching

677
00:37:53.800 --> 00:37:58.639
the Walmart receipt, two loaded nine millimeter magazines, a bulletproof vest,

678
00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:02.400
and printed in intructions for building a suppressor for a

679
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:03.039
twenty two.

680
00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:05.880
Caliber firearm Ord silencer Okay.

681
00:38:06.199 --> 00:38:10.599
Conspicuously absent were the anchorchain and the ankle weights. Around

682
00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:14.079
eleven thirty on October twenty eighth, Michael returned to Linda's

683
00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:17.119
home in Winthrop, where she was waiting for him. He

684
00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:20.039
told her it had been a long, bad day. Things

685
00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:24.280
had gone wrong. Investigators arrived and asked to speak with him.

686
00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:27.000
When they asked where he had been that day, Michael

687
00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:29.760
admitted he had driven to visit his ex wife, Jennifer.

688
00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:34.199
Tears silently rolled down Linda's cheeks at the news. She

689
00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:38.000
quietly excused herself and left the room, overwrought with emotion.

690
00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:41.559
Michael then asked if he could retrieve medication for his

691
00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:46.760
anxiety from his suv. Officers agreed. As one detective watched

692
00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:49.679
from a distance, Michael opened the rear of the vehicle,

693
00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:53.119
removed a white bag, and tossed it over a nearby

694
00:38:53.199 --> 00:38:58.480
twenty five foot embankment. Police immediately recovered it. Inside were

695
00:38:58.519 --> 00:39:01.880
a twenty two caliber pistol, a bloodstained piece of carpet

696
00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:04.880
that had been cut from the suv, a bloody napkin,

697
00:39:05.079 --> 00:39:09.920
and clothing receipts. Before placing Michael under arrest, officers stripped

698
00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:12.920
him of a loaded nine millimeter handgun tucked into the

699
00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:16.760
waistband of his pants. Although Mark Stover's body had still

700
00:39:16.800 --> 00:39:20.519
not been found, investigators believed they had enough evidence to

701
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:23.960
move forward with an arrest. Forty one year old Michael

702
00:39:23.960 --> 00:39:27.519
Oakes was charged with first degree murder. His bond was

703
00:39:27.519 --> 00:39:31.159
initially set at five million dollars before later being reduced

704
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:34.760
to two point five million after family members put up

705
00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:38.360
their homes as collateral. Michael was released under house arrest.

706
00:39:38.599 --> 00:39:42.880
While awaiting trial, he was forbidden from seeing Linda. It

707
00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:45.159
sure seems like for a guy who his whole job

708
00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:48.400
is about, like training people and security and all, that

709
00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:52.119
seemed like this was a really sloppy job that he did.

710
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:56.599
He's such an interesting character. He was on forty eight

711
00:39:56.679 --> 00:39:58.880
hours in dateline, so I got a really good sense

712
00:39:59.239 --> 00:40:02.159
of who he was. He's just a really odd guy.

713
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:04.360
We'll be back after a break.

714
00:40:11.719 --> 00:40:15.719
Although Michael Oaks had been arrested, one question remained unanswered.

715
00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:19.719
Where was Mark? After a cadaver dog alerted near the

716
00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:24.800
Swnomish Channel, the narrow waterway separating Fidelgo Island from the mainland,

717
00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:28.599
dive teams spent days searching the cold, murky water for

718
00:40:28.760 --> 00:40:33.679
Mark's body. They searched exhaustively but found nothing. Mark had

719
00:40:33.679 --> 00:40:37.480
seemingly vanished without a trace. Despite the absence of a body,

720
00:40:37.559 --> 00:40:41.800
investigators believed they had enough evidence to move forward. Prosecutors

721
00:40:41.880 --> 00:40:46.000
concluded the circumstantial evidence against Michael Oaks painted a compelling

722
00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:49.440
picture of what they believed had happened on October twenty eighth,

723
00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:52.760
two thousand and nine, and Michael didn't dispute many of

724
00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:57.280
the facts uncovered by investigators. Instead, he offered a dramatically

725
00:40:57.320 --> 00:41:01.320
different explanation for them. Michael did deny going to Mark's

726
00:41:01.320 --> 00:41:03.840
house on the morning of October twenty eighth, but he

727
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:08.360
insisted he hadn't gone there intending to kill him. Instead,

728
00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:10.679
he claimed that he had been trying for months to

729
00:41:10.840 --> 00:41:14.679
protect himself, Linda, and his children from a man he

730
00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:19.920
believed was becoming dangerous. According to Michael, his first encounter

731
00:41:20.039 --> 00:41:23.079
with Mark took place in May two thousand nine, outside

732
00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:27.239
a costco near his home. Mark allegedly confronted him, saying,

733
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:30.880
you're the guy that's fucking my wife. Michael claimed Mark

734
00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:34.119
demanded that he turn over the wedding photographs from Mark

735
00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:37.880
and Linda's marriage. For years, Mark had been fixated on

736
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:41.440
these wedding photos and had asked Linda for them several times.

737
00:41:41.880 --> 00:41:44.679
Mark mentioned what Michael's children had been wearing when they

738
00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:48.440
left for school that morning, something Michael interpreted as a threat.

739
00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:51.559
Michael said Mark warned him that if he wanted to

740
00:41:51.639 --> 00:41:54.440
keep himself and his children safe, he would hand over

741
00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:57.719
the wedding photographs. Michael said they met again about a

742
00:41:57.880 --> 00:42:01.360
week later at a shopping mall. The meeting lasted only

743
00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:04.480
a few minutes, and he still hadn't brought the photographs,

744
00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:07.920
telling Mark he couldn't find them. Michael said that Mark

745
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:11.920
warned him to start taking the threats seriously. The encounters,

746
00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:15.320
Michael claimed, continued throughout the summer. While he and Linda

747
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:19.239
were vacationing in Montana visiting her parents, Michael said Mark

748
00:42:19.360 --> 00:42:22.880
unexpectedly approached him at a coffee shop. Linda and Michael

749
00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:26.280
had been considering relocating to Montana in hopes of putting

750
00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:31.000
more distance between themselves. And Mark. Mark told Michael Montana

751
00:42:31.159 --> 00:42:33.840
is my state and warned him again that if he

752
00:42:33.880 --> 00:42:37.559
didn't produce the wedding photographs, he would lose someone he loved.

753
00:42:38.280 --> 00:42:41.360
Michael prepared for what he considered a real and ominous

754
00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:45.880
threat by himself. He placed firearms throughout the home, including

755
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:48.679
in his children's bedroom. He taught them how to shoot

756
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:51.119
if they were ever forced to defend themselves.

757
00:42:51.559 --> 00:42:53.559
I don't know how old his children were, but that

758
00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:55.440
seems like a really bad idea.

759
00:42:55.480 --> 00:42:58.079
So at least one of them was over eighteen. I

760
00:42:58.119 --> 00:43:00.639
think there was one that was younger, but there was

761
00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:03.280
also two teenagers. So but yeah, I mean, these kids

762
00:43:03.320 --> 00:43:05.880
should not have been put in that position. But you

763
00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:08.000
know the kind of guy Michael is, right, you can

764
00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:11.840
see him right. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with owning weapons,

765
00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:14.159
but to put them in every room of your house is.

766
00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:16.880
Yeah, it seems a little overboard.

767
00:43:17.079 --> 00:43:19.920
Yeah. Michael met Mark again in late September in a

768
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:22.679
church parking lot, and then again on October twenty fourth,

769
00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:26.960
at the same location. Each time, he said, Mark repeated

770
00:43:26.960 --> 00:43:30.519
his demands at his threats. Finally, Mark instructed him to

771
00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:33.239
come to his house on the morning of October twenty eighth,

772
00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:35.760
he told Michael not to park in the driveway, but

773
00:43:35.880 --> 00:43:39.119
instead leave his vehicle near the church and walk through

774
00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:42.239
the woods. Michael claimed that he never shared any of

775
00:43:42.280 --> 00:43:44.960
this with Linda. He claimed that he wanted to protect

776
00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:48.119
her from additional stress and believed he could handle the

777
00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:52.920
situation himself. Michael insists that Mark shot him first, and

778
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:56.360
he shot back only in self defense. What do you

779
00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:59.559
think of Michael's story And do you believe that these

780
00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:04.039
wedding photos are Mark's motivation to be a stalker and

781
00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:04.679
a nuisance?

782
00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:07.920
I mean, it seems a little a little unlikely to me.

783
00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:09.039
I mean, it sounds I.

784
00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:11.760
Need to mention though he did ask Mark did ask

785
00:44:11.880 --> 00:44:13.840
Linda for these pictures for years.

786
00:44:14.440 --> 00:44:17.000
Say it doesn't sound out a character for Mark based

787
00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:19.159
on what we know about him, that I could imagine

788
00:44:19.159 --> 00:44:21.519
that he would want those photos and that he would

789
00:44:21.519 --> 00:44:24.679
be upset about not getting them. But it just seems

790
00:44:24.760 --> 00:44:25.800
like to stalk him.

791
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:28.880
And why would Michael meet with him like on five

792
00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:32.320
to six different occasions and keep going if he didn't have.

793
00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:34.079
The word right photo exactly what would be the point

794
00:44:34.119 --> 00:44:37.880
of even meeting. Yeah. After Michael's arrest, his ex wife,

795
00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:42.920
Jennifer Thompson contacted investigators with information she believed was important.

796
00:44:43.559 --> 00:44:47.480
Jennifer told detectives that she had seen Michael twice during

797
00:44:47.480 --> 00:44:51.000
the days leading up to Mark's disappearance. The first meeting

798
00:44:51.039 --> 00:44:55.000
took place on October twenty fourth. Jennifer had recently begun

799
00:44:55.119 --> 00:44:59.360
dating someone new, but admitted she still had unresolved feelings

800
00:44:59.400 --> 00:45:02.239
for Michael. Hoping to find out whether there was any

801
00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:05.559
chance of reconciling, she reached out and asked if he

802
00:45:05.679 --> 00:45:09.599
was truly over their relationship. Michael admitted he still had

803
00:45:09.639 --> 00:45:12.719
feelings for her, and the two agreed to meet in person.

804
00:45:13.480 --> 00:45:17.079
Jennifer lived near Mark Stover's kennel, and Michael told her

805
00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:19.400
he was in the area to do what he described

806
00:45:19.599 --> 00:45:22.880
as a dangerous job. Later that day, he sent her

807
00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:27.159
a text message that read no worries, I'm safe. Job failed,

808
00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:31.280
I'm okay, no pay though. Four days later, on October

809
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:35.519
twenty eighth, Michael called Jennifer again. He suggested they meet

810
00:45:35.559 --> 00:45:39.079
at a Starbucks around one fifteen pm before taking a

811
00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:43.880
walk together. Jennifer immediately noticed that he looked unusually disheveled,

812
00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:48.000
with a rusty spot on his jeans. During their brief conversation.

813
00:45:48.239 --> 00:45:51.719
Jennifer later told investigators that Michael said a big and

814
00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:55.559
dangerous mission had turned into a job gone bad. He

815
00:45:55.599 --> 00:45:57.880
also told her that if police looked in the back

816
00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:00.199
of his vehicle, he could spend the rest of his

817
00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:04.199
life in prison. Michael was prone to exaggeration, but she

818
00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:08.679
believed him. The police found Jennifer to be a credible witness.

819
00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:12.119
So he's telling Jennifer here that if the police had

820
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:14.639
looked into the back of his car, that he would

821
00:46:14.679 --> 00:46:16.800
have gone to prison for the rest of his life. Right,

822
00:46:17.079 --> 00:46:19.480
And remember that officer did look into the back of

823
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:22.559
his car and some blankets and things, and Mark's body

824
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:25.960
was in his car at that time. More than likely

825
00:46:26.599 --> 00:46:30.199
that police officer must have been kicking himself, I know.

826
00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:33.119
But he also didn't have cause to search his vehicle.

827
00:46:32.840 --> 00:46:36.159
Either, right, Yeah, in hindsight, he must have been kicking

828
00:46:36.199 --> 00:46:38.880
himself by at the time he could get known for sure.

829
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:44.679
But that's as close as police ever got to Mark's body.

830
00:46:42.280 --> 00:46:48.079
Oh. Michael maintained that he acted in self defense. He

831
00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:51.400
was steadfast in his claim that Mark opened fire first

832
00:46:51.639 --> 00:46:54.280
after he entered the house on the morning of October

833
00:46:54.320 --> 00:46:57.760
twenty eight. Michael said the bullet lodged in the kevlar

834
00:46:57.880 --> 00:47:00.800
vest he was wearing, which proved he had returned fire

835
00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:05.239
only to save his own life. Investigators, however, questioned that claim.

836
00:47:05.719 --> 00:47:09.039
They noted that the bullet was embedded almost perfectly in

837
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:11.840
the center of the vest and had entered straight on

838
00:47:12.280 --> 00:47:16.440
rather than at an angle, which seemed unlikely. Michael claimed

839
00:47:16.480 --> 00:47:19.159
that he had shot Ding because she was coming straight

840
00:47:19.239 --> 00:47:22.519
at him. His attorneys also argued they had evidence that

841
00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:26.159
Mark himself had arranged the early morning meeting, and maintained

842
00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:28.800
that the bullet recovered from the vest did not match

843
00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:32.920
any firearm known to have belonged to Mark. Prosecutors saw

844
00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:37.559
the case differently. Inside Mark's home, investigators found Michael's blood,

845
00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:41.760
along with three spent shell casings that forensic testing matched

846
00:47:41.920 --> 00:47:45.519
one of his twenty two caliber handguns. Mark's blood was

847
00:47:45.559 --> 00:47:49.639
discovered inside Michael's SUV, and the bloodstained piece of carpet

848
00:47:49.639 --> 00:47:53.360
cut from the vehicle also tested positive for Mark's DNA.

849
00:47:54.079 --> 00:47:57.719
Prosecutors argued the physical evidence was only part of the story.

850
00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:01.119
According to their theory, Michael parked his car at the

851
00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:04.239
church before walking roughly half a mile through the woods

852
00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:08.719
to Mark's house, wearing a kevlar vest and carrying two firearms.

853
00:48:08.920 --> 00:48:13.519
He arrived prepared for a violent confrontation. After shooting Mark,

854
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:17.199
prosecutors alleged that Michael loaded his body into Mark's white

855
00:48:17.199 --> 00:48:20.840
station wagon, drove to the grange, and transferred the body

856
00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:24.519
into his own suv. They argued that he then disposed

857
00:48:24.519 --> 00:48:27.440
of the body in a location that has never been discovered.

858
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:32.079
Prosecutors also pointed to Michael's actions after the shooting, his

859
00:48:32.199 --> 00:48:35.840
purchases that morning, his statements to Jennifer Thompson about a

860
00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:39.079
dangerous job gone bad, and his attempt to throw a

861
00:48:39.119 --> 00:48:43.039
bag containing a twenty two caliber pistol and other incriminating

862
00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:46.920
evidence down an embankment. As detectives arrived at Linda's home

863
00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:50.800
with Mark's body still missing, prosecutors asked the court to

864
00:48:50.920 --> 00:48:54.199
order Michael to reveal where it was. They also sought

865
00:48:54.239 --> 00:48:57.239
to compel him to identify the person he claimed he

866
00:48:57.280 --> 00:49:01.679
had been protecting when he asserted self defense. Superior Court

867
00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:05.320
Judge Michael Rickert denied the request, ruling that the court

868
00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:10.159
could not force a defendant to provide potentially self incriminating testimony,

869
00:49:10.599 --> 00:49:14.880
even if doing so might help investigators recover of victim's remains.

870
00:49:15.559 --> 00:49:18.480
The judge did, however, order Linda Updike to sit for

871
00:49:18.519 --> 00:49:22.719
a deposition, invoking her Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination.

872
00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:27.440
She declined to answer nearly every question. Linda's attorney, John

873
00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:31.280
Henry Brown, said his client remained deathly afraid of Mark.

874
00:49:31.840 --> 00:49:35.239
Speaking to the Seattle Times, Brown described the case as

875
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:38.320
a big who done it. Neither Linda nor her father,

876
00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:43.079
Wallace Updike, was ever charged in connection with Mark's disappearance. Wait,

877
00:49:43.159 --> 00:49:46.760
remind me why Linda's father would have potentially been charged.

878
00:49:47.119 --> 00:49:49.599
Do you ever at the end of Michael's second marriage

879
00:49:49.679 --> 00:49:53.000
he had been offered a job to take someone out right.

880
00:49:53.360 --> 00:49:58.679
That was allegedly Linda's father offering Michael money if he killed.

881
00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:01.199
Oh, okay, I'd forgotten he face was involved in that.

882
00:50:01.920 --> 00:50:03.920
But there is no proof that that ever happened.

883
00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:08.920
Okay. Judge Rickert predicted how the deposition would unfold. I

884
00:50:08.920 --> 00:50:11.840
will order the deposition, he said, but I cannot order

885
00:50:11.880 --> 00:50:14.159
them to talk with you. I can see what's going

886
00:50:14.199 --> 00:50:16.519
to happen. They're going to show up and we're going

887
00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:20.159
to argue about every single question all day long. Even

888
00:50:20.239 --> 00:50:23.280
before the trial began, both sides agreed on one thing.

889
00:50:23.800 --> 00:50:27.000
If prosecutors could convince the jury that Mark Stover was

890
00:50:27.079 --> 00:50:30.280
dead and that his death was a homicide, the entire

891
00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:33.440
case would hinge on whether Michael Oakes had acted in

892
00:50:33.519 --> 00:50:37.440
lawful self defense. As one of Michael's attorneys put it

893
00:50:37.480 --> 00:50:40.440
before trial, if the state can prove that Stover is

894
00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:42.960
dead and that it was a homicide, then we will

895
00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:46.280
claim self defense. In the months leading up to trial,

896
00:50:46.440 --> 00:50:49.920
Michael also gave interviews to both Dateline and forty eight Hours.

897
00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:53.719
Asked by Peter van zandt what happened inside Mark's home,

898
00:50:54.079 --> 00:50:57.920
Michael offered a blunt explanation. He started a gunfight, and

899
00:50:58.039 --> 00:50:58.440
I won.

900
00:50:59.239 --> 00:51:03.119
Michael Oaks. His trial began in October twenty ten. Leading

901
00:51:03.159 --> 00:51:07.239
the defense was slick Seattle attorney John Henry Brown, who

902
00:51:07.280 --> 00:51:11.039
had once defended Ted Bundy. Brown waived his opening statement,

903
00:51:11.119 --> 00:51:14.400
choosing instead to let the prosecution present its case before

904
00:51:14.440 --> 00:51:17.960
revealing the defense strategy. He had already made one thing clear.

905
00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:20.840
If prosecutors proved that Mark was dead and that his

906
00:51:20.920 --> 00:51:23.960
death was a homicide, the defense would argue Michael acted

907
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:26.800
in self defense. I think this is such an odd

908
00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:29.360
way to go about the defense here. Yeah, it really

909
00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:32.960
is one of the first battles centered on the kevlar vest.

910
00:51:33.320 --> 00:51:36.440
Michael had insisted the bullet embedded in the vest proved

911
00:51:36.440 --> 00:51:40.960
that Mark had fired first, but firearms experts disagreed. They

912
00:51:41.039 --> 00:51:44.159
testified that the bullet was consistent with one of Michael's

913
00:51:44.199 --> 00:51:47.760
own firearms and concluded it appeared to have been fired

914
00:51:47.800 --> 00:51:51.079
into the vest while it was laying flat, rather than

915
00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:54.679
while it was being worn. Throughout the trial, Brown argued

916
00:51:54.719 --> 00:51:59.119
that investigators had developed a tunnel vision, focusing almost exclusively

917
00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:02.639
on Michael while ignoring evidence that supported his claim of

918
00:52:02.679 --> 00:52:06.719
self defense. He maintained that Mark had orchestrated the meeting

919
00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:10.199
and portrayed him as a volatile man who had continued

920
00:52:10.239 --> 00:52:14.480
threatening Linda long after their divorce. Something that stood out

921
00:52:14.519 --> 00:52:16.960
to me is that there was no evidence that Mark

922
00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:20.199
had ever contacted Michael for a meeting, like there would

923
00:52:20.199 --> 00:52:23.519
have been a text or an email or something. And

924
00:52:23.559 --> 00:52:25.880
at one point he said, oh, I'll be able to

925
00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:29.119
prove that he did, and he never offered that evidence.

926
00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:31.360
And then he also said, you know, like, oh, I

927
00:52:31.400 --> 00:52:34.320
can prove that Mark shot me in the kevlar vest

928
00:52:34.480 --> 00:52:37.840
while it was one of it was sorry his weapons.

929
00:52:37.400 --> 00:52:40.960
And the police never found any weapons at Mark's home either, No,

930
00:52:41.079 --> 00:52:41.559
they didn't.

931
00:52:42.159 --> 00:52:47.159
During the defense's case, Theresa Vau, Michelle Mark's fiance, acknowledged

932
00:52:47.320 --> 00:52:50.679
that he had traveled to Montana twice while Linda and

933
00:52:50.760 --> 00:52:54.159
Michael were vacationing there. She also testified that Mark had

934
00:52:54.159 --> 00:52:57.599
once asked a young female employee to accompany him on

935
00:52:57.599 --> 00:53:00.599
one of those trips because she could legally carry the

936
00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:04.519
handgun that he was prohibited from possessing after his stocking conviction.

937
00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:07.599
So allegedly he did have other people keeping guns for

938
00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:10.039
them for him, but he tried not to keep them

939
00:53:10.039 --> 00:53:12.920
in his house. When Michael took the stand, the courtroom

940
00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:17.159
witnessed one of the trial's most memorable moments. Prosecutors asked

941
00:53:17.199 --> 00:53:20.199
him to put on the kevlar vest and demonstrate what happened.

942
00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:24.079
After he claimed Mark shot him in the chest without warning.

943
00:53:24.280 --> 00:53:28.639
Michael lunged forward, grabbed prosecutor Rich Bolas's arm, twisted it

944
00:53:28.679 --> 00:53:31.000
behind his back, and threw him to the floor. The

945
00:53:31.039 --> 00:53:35.599
courtroom erupted in nervous laughter. As Bolas climbed to his feet,

946
00:53:35.719 --> 00:53:39.320
he looked at Michael and said, that was amazingly fast.

947
00:53:39.440 --> 00:53:43.920
Mister Oakes is that how it happened. Michael replied, matter

948
00:53:43.960 --> 00:53:47.519
of factly, that's how I was trained. So a lot

949
00:53:47.519 --> 00:53:50.119
of experts say, like, if you are shot in the chest,

950
00:53:50.280 --> 00:53:52.199
even if you have a kevlar vest, it's going to

951
00:53:52.360 --> 00:53:54.440
knock the wind out of you. It's going to shock you,

952
00:53:54.760 --> 00:53:56.800
and you're not going to have this, you know, sudden

953
00:53:57.239 --> 00:54:00.559
reaction like Michael claims that he had. Yeah, you know,

954
00:54:00.559 --> 00:54:02.559
it's going to take you a few moments to.

955
00:54:04.599 --> 00:54:04.880
Yeah.

956
00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:08.920
For months, Mark's family had been searching for answers. Investigators

957
00:54:08.960 --> 00:54:12.800
had searched the Swnomish Channel over and over without success,

958
00:54:13.000 --> 00:54:16.039
and the witness stand Michael finally told the jury where

959
00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:19.559
he had left Mark's body. He testified that after the shooting,

960
00:54:19.719 --> 00:54:23.000
he dumped Mark's body into the waters of the Swnomish

961
00:54:23.039 --> 00:54:26.440
Channel near a weather beaten dock behind the casino, a

962
00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:30.039
few miles from Mark's home. He had tucked Mark's handgun

963
00:54:30.159 --> 00:54:33.599
into his pocket before pushing the body from the rear

964
00:54:33.639 --> 00:54:36.599
of his vehicle into the water. It was a tidy

965
00:54:36.599 --> 00:54:40.480
and convenient answer, but was it true. There was video

966
00:54:40.559 --> 00:54:44.400
of Marx Black suv entering the casino around twelve thirty

967
00:54:44.440 --> 00:54:49.159
pm on October twenty eighth, His vehicle disappeared for sixteen

968
00:54:49.239 --> 00:54:51.920
minutes and then re emerged before he pulled a way

969
00:54:51.920 --> 00:54:56.039
out of the casino. The area was searched extensively. The

970
00:54:56.079 --> 00:54:59.480
water here is shallow, only about four feet deep, but

971
00:54:59.559 --> 00:55:03.719
no body Oregon was ever recovered, although it is possible

972
00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:05.840
Mark could have been swept away with the current.

973
00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:08.119
I was going to ask because this is this is

974
00:55:08.159 --> 00:55:11.320
called a channel, which means it has some current there.

975
00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:14.559
But all of the investigators and the recent people say

976
00:55:14.599 --> 00:55:18.000
that that was not very likely. Possible, but not likely.

977
00:55:18.039 --> 00:55:20.519
In resting and do you think it's odd that he

978
00:55:20.559 --> 00:55:22.440
would put the gun with Mark?

979
00:55:23.039 --> 00:55:24.800
It is odd, but I find the whole thing odd,

980
00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:27.320
like why would you? It just seems odd that you

981
00:55:27.320 --> 00:55:30.480
would dispose of a body after you kill them in

982
00:55:30.519 --> 00:55:32.639
self defense, if it truly was self defense.

983
00:55:33.280 --> 00:55:36.719
The jury was being asked to decide an extraordinary case.

984
00:55:36.760 --> 00:55:38.920
There was no body, no why witness to the shooting,

985
00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:42.079
and no confession. Instead, they would have to weigh four

986
00:55:42.119 --> 00:55:45.719
weeks of testimony from more than fifty witnesses, more than

987
00:55:45.800 --> 00:55:49.639
seven hundred exhibits, and the competing stories presented by the

988
00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:53.719
prosecution and the defense. Once the case was handed to

989
00:55:53.760 --> 00:55:57.599
the jury. They took their time. They painstakingly reviewed the

990
00:55:57.599 --> 00:56:01.239
evidence and even constructed a handwritten time line that stretched

991
00:56:01.239 --> 00:56:05.360
more than twenty feet across the deliberation room floor. After

992
00:56:05.480 --> 00:56:08.920
four days of deliberating, they took their first first vote.

993
00:56:09.039 --> 00:56:12.880
Unsure of what to expect. It was unanimous. They found

994
00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:16.760
Michael Oakes guilty of first degree murder. His children could

995
00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:20.400
be heard sobbing after the verdict was read. Before deputies

996
00:56:20.519 --> 00:56:23.519
escorted him from the courtroom. Michael was allowed to embrace

997
00:56:23.599 --> 00:56:27.360
each of his children before being taken into custody. This

998
00:56:27.400 --> 00:56:30.159
broke my heart because I heard audio of them. Oh,

999
00:56:30.199 --> 00:56:32.840
it was really heartbreaking. They seemed like really sweet kids.

1000
00:56:33.079 --> 00:56:36.199
And for all Michael's faults, I feel like he did

1001
00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:40.079
love his children very much. And the jury here, I

1002
00:56:40.119 --> 00:56:42.480
was really impressed by them. They seemed like they really

1003
00:56:42.519 --> 00:56:47.000
took and Yeah. Several weeks later, Michael returned to the

1004
00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:50.159
court for sentencing. Judge Rickert made it clear that he

1005
00:56:50.239 --> 00:56:53.199
did not believe Michael had told the whole truth. If,

1006
00:56:53.280 --> 00:56:55.800
as Michael claimed, he had acted in self defense, the

1007
00:56:55.880 --> 00:56:59.320
judge of question why he had never led investigators to

1008
00:56:59.360 --> 00:57:03.079
Mark's body and the gun that could have corroborated his account.

1009
00:57:03.519 --> 00:57:05.760
The judge said the case had left him with more

1010
00:57:05.840 --> 00:57:09.480
questions than answers. He compared Michael's version of events to

1011
00:57:09.519 --> 00:57:12.760
a fairy tale, one in which Michael cast himself as

1012
00:57:12.800 --> 00:57:16.599
the knight rescuing the princess by slaying the dragon, but

1013
00:57:16.679 --> 00:57:19.480
what troubled him most was something else. For more than

1014
00:57:19.519 --> 00:57:22.599
a year, Mark Stover's family had searched for answers, while

1015
00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:25.360
Michael remained the only person who knew where Mark's body

1016
00:57:25.400 --> 00:57:29.679
had been left. Judge Reichert then made one final observation quote,

1017
00:57:29.960 --> 00:57:32.360
I'm pretty sure I know where he isn't and that's

1018
00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:34.719
off the dock at the end of the Sunomish Channel.

1019
00:57:35.280 --> 00:57:38.239
He sentenced Michael Oakes to three hundred twenty months in prison,

1020
00:57:38.400 --> 00:57:42.639
the maximum sentence allowed under Washington law. Mark Stover's body

1021
00:57:42.639 --> 00:57:45.840
has never been found, his family continues to search for him.

1022
00:57:46.159 --> 00:57:49.239
Linda Opdyke summed it up well when she said, there

1023
00:57:49.280 --> 00:57:51.800
are a lot of ruined lives in this. It's tragic

1024
00:57:51.880 --> 00:57:54.039
for every single person involved in this.

1025
00:57:54.599 --> 00:57:56.440
Can you do the math for me on what three

1026
00:57:56.519 --> 00:57:57.480
hundred and twenty.

1027
00:57:57.280 --> 00:58:00.119
Months is twenty six and a half years.

1028
00:58:00.159 --> 00:58:02.039
Like parents who talk about how many months old their

1029
00:58:02.119 --> 00:58:03.960
kids are when they're like five years old.

1030
00:58:04.519 --> 00:58:08.039
Mark Stover was a complicated man with many dimensions. Those

1031
00:58:08.039 --> 00:58:10.719
who loved him remembered him as a gifted dog trainer

1032
00:58:11.079 --> 00:58:15.360
with an almost uncanny ability to understand animals. He dedicated

1033
00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:18.199
his life to rehabilitating dogs that others had given up on,

1034
00:58:18.480 --> 00:58:22.920
saving many from euthanasia. Friends describe him as intelligent, quirky,

1035
00:58:23.119 --> 00:58:26.079
endlessly curious, and someone who seemed to speak the language

1036
00:58:26.079 --> 00:58:29.920
of dogs. Loved history, the outdoors, hunting, fishing, spending time

1037
00:58:29.960 --> 00:58:32.960
with the animals that became his life's work. Whatever happened

1038
00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:35.079
between Mark and Linda in the years leading up to

1039
00:58:35.119 --> 00:58:38.000
his death, no one deserved to disappear without a trace.

1040
00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:40.880
More than fifteen years later, his family is still waiting

1041
00:58:40.960 --> 00:58:42.960
to bring him home. We hope that one day they

1042
00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:45.320
finally get the chance. Rest in peace.

1043
00:58:45.400 --> 00:58:45.639
Mark.

1044
00:58:46.519 --> 00:58:50.119
Teresa Marx fiancee, later filed a civil lawsuit, claiming that

1045
00:58:50.159 --> 00:58:52.119
he had written her a check of one hundred and

1046
00:58:52.159 --> 00:58:55.199
fifty thousand dollars just weeks before his disappearance because he

1047
00:58:55.239 --> 00:58:58.480
feared something might happen to him. Friends testified that Mark

1048
00:58:58.559 --> 00:59:01.840
believed Linda wanted him to the court never decided whether

1049
00:59:01.880 --> 00:59:05.440
those fears were justified. Instead, the lawsuit was dismissed after

1050
00:59:05.480 --> 00:59:08.400
it was filed just five days after the deadline. I

1051
00:59:08.400 --> 00:59:10.400
am surprised you never asked about ding.

1052
00:59:10.639 --> 00:59:10.840
Oh.

1053
00:59:10.920 --> 00:59:16.880
Yeah, despite being shot in the head three times, she

1054
00:59:17.039 --> 00:59:20.400
recovered an incredible outcome for a dog whose life had

1055
00:59:20.440 --> 00:59:24.000
been devoted to protecting money. She later died from cancer,

1056
00:59:24.079 --> 00:59:26.440
but Teresa had her I think for several years before

1057
00:59:26.519 --> 00:59:30.400
she died. So, I mean, what a dog. Yeah, why

1058
00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:32.559
do you think that Michael purchased shin guards.

1059
00:59:32.719 --> 00:59:35.400
I was wondering that when when we mentioned that that

1060
00:59:35.480 --> 00:59:37.239
seemed like a very odd.

1061
00:59:36.920 --> 00:59:40.280
Well, he said he purchased them as a gift for Jennifer,

1062
00:59:40.400 --> 00:59:43.960
his second wife had two young boys that he cared about.

1063
00:59:44.119 --> 00:59:45.719
He said, oh, those were a gift for one of

1064
00:59:45.760 --> 00:59:48.760
the boys, but it was in case the dog bit

1065
00:59:48.840 --> 00:59:50.239
him in the shin Oh.

1066
00:59:50.400 --> 00:59:51.679
I thought of everything.

1067
00:59:51.719 --> 00:59:54.519
I guess, well, I forgot to tell this one crazy

1068
00:59:54.559 --> 00:59:56.719
story when he was saying, how you know, he went

1069
00:59:56.760 --> 00:59:59.440
to Mark's house and he had the bullet proof of

1070
00:59:59.519 --> 01:00:03.320
ast but he was prepared if he needed to run

1071
01:00:03.360 --> 01:00:06.280
through the woods to a water tower and one of

1072
01:00:06.280 --> 01:00:08.239
the things that he had bought was, you know, like

1073
01:00:08.280 --> 01:00:12.719
the anchor rope or whatever, and that he was planning

1074
01:00:12.719 --> 01:00:17.719
on climbing up the water tower and escaping from mar Wow. Yeah,

1075
01:00:17.840 --> 01:00:21.639
I mean guy was kind of a little intense.

1076
01:00:21.360 --> 01:00:22.880
Delusional in some ways. I guess.

1077
01:00:22.880 --> 01:00:25.440
Maybe do you believe any part of Michael's story or

1078
01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:27.559
do you believe he went to Mark's house with the

1079
01:00:27.599 --> 01:00:29.480
sole intention of taking him out.

1080
01:00:29.880 --> 01:00:31.800
I believe the part of his story where he said

1081
01:00:31.800 --> 01:00:33.840
he shot and killed Mark, But yeah, I think he

1082
01:00:33.880 --> 01:00:36.039
went there with the intention of killing him.

1083
01:00:36.159 --> 01:00:38.239
Do you think it was a job that someone hired

1084
01:00:38.320 --> 01:00:39.960
him to do, like Linda's father.

1085
01:00:39.880 --> 01:00:42.280
I don't know. That's what I was really curious about,

1086
01:00:42.280 --> 01:00:45.119
whether whether Linda had knowledge that he was going to

1087
01:00:45.159 --> 01:00:47.239
do this or it doesn't seem like he would have

1088
01:00:47.239 --> 01:00:49.000
been hired to do this. I don't I can't imagine

1089
01:00:49.000 --> 01:00:52.360
why would Linda's father. I guess he wanted to protect

1090
01:00:52.400 --> 01:00:54.000
his daughter, maybe his daughter.

1091
01:00:54.400 --> 01:00:57.159
And there's also I think, you know, some bad feelings

1092
01:00:57.199 --> 01:01:00.239
about the business. Yeah, things that happened there. There was

1093
01:01:00.280 --> 01:01:03.000
a little bit of evidence pointing to Linda might have

1094
01:01:03.119 --> 01:01:05.800
told Michael a few things, like Michael knew to put

1095
01:01:05.840 --> 01:01:09.039
on this jacket, that Mark always wore and this like

1096
01:01:09.119 --> 01:01:12.760
Indiana Jones style type hat. He knew to put that

1097
01:01:12.880 --> 01:01:16.119
hat on because Mark literally wore that every everywhere he went.

1098
01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:19.840
So if someone and I should mention too that Mark

1099
01:01:20.039 --> 01:01:23.960
was a smaller stature as well, so you know, like

1100
01:01:24.039 --> 01:01:26.559
his employees thought, oh, that is just Mark.

1101
01:01:26.800 --> 01:01:27.039
Right.

1102
01:01:27.679 --> 01:01:30.639
So did Linda tell Michael a few things like that?

1103
01:01:30.639 --> 01:01:33.760
That's interesting because I was going to say that just

1104
01:01:33.880 --> 01:01:37.000
based on what I've learned about Michael, it doesn't seem

1105
01:01:37.039 --> 01:01:39.159
like it seems like he was just kind of an

1106
01:01:39.159 --> 01:01:42.320
odd duct and this might have been something he just

1107
01:01:42.400 --> 01:01:44.119
dreamed up in his own head that I'm going to

1108
01:01:44.199 --> 01:01:45.679
do this, I'm going to be this hero, I'm going

1109
01:01:45.760 --> 01:01:48.239
to go do this. But those things you just mentioned

1110
01:01:48.280 --> 01:01:50.360
do give me a little more pause, Like it does

1111
01:01:50.440 --> 01:01:54.039
make me wonder did she was she involved in that?

1112
01:01:54.239 --> 01:01:58.360
She didn't know, especially because they had allegedly this strong bund.

1113
01:01:59.000 --> 01:02:02.719
But also Michael was talking to Jennifer right, and it

1114
01:02:02.840 --> 01:02:06.119
sounded like they still had feelings for each other. Yeah,

1115
01:02:06.159 --> 01:02:08.239
and he'd seen her twice in four days and it

1116
01:02:08.280 --> 01:02:11.079
was a three hour drive. So yeah, I don't know,

1117
01:02:12.079 --> 01:02:15.000
Michael said to Peter Van sant On forty eight hours,

1118
01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:18.199
he started a gunfight and I won, And that has

1119
01:02:18.239 --> 01:02:21.280
really stuck with me. What do you think of that statement?

1120
01:02:21.719 --> 01:02:24.000
I mean it makes it sound like all Michael really

1121
01:02:24.039 --> 01:02:27.159
cared about is winning, and winning in this case meant

1122
01:02:27.559 --> 01:02:29.239
taking out his competition.

1123
01:02:29.440 --> 01:02:30.079
Yeah.

1124
01:02:30.239 --> 01:02:33.239
On a lighter note, Walmart. Why has Walmart featured in

1125
01:02:33.280 --> 01:02:36.039
so many of our cases? It's cover Target or Costco,

1126
01:02:36.119 --> 01:02:39.159
it's always Walmart. Maybe maybe it's just because there's more time,

1127
01:02:39.800 --> 01:02:42.159
But isn't it funny there's so many cases where right

1128
01:02:42.199 --> 01:02:44.519
before the murder happened, they stopped at Walmart.

1129
01:02:44.599 --> 01:02:46.920
I was thinking. Also, McDonald's comes up a lot, and

1130
01:02:46.960 --> 01:02:49.079
I think it's just because they're everywhere. But in a

1131
01:02:49.119 --> 01:02:50.840
lot of cases we do, people are like, oh, they

1132
01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:53.800
took the kids to McDonald's or whatever. But Walmart does

1133
01:02:53.840 --> 01:02:55.400
seem to come up very frequently.

1134
01:02:55.719 --> 01:02:57.280
I think you were in bed last night and I

1135
01:02:57.360 --> 01:03:00.000
was still working and I was laughing, and I told you,

1136
01:03:00.199 --> 01:03:02.360
Keith Morrison is yelling at someone.

1137
01:03:02.159 --> 01:03:02.719
As he did.

1138
01:03:02.840 --> 01:03:06.199
He was so mad at Michael. He said, quote, any

1139
01:03:06.320 --> 01:03:09.440
rational person would know that you don't protect your children

1140
01:03:09.519 --> 01:03:11.920
by taking a gun to someone else's house to meet

1141
01:03:11.960 --> 01:03:14.840
with them if you think there will be gunplay. You

1142
01:03:14.920 --> 01:03:16.920
don't do that if you're a dad.

1143
01:03:17.840 --> 01:03:18.320
Wow.

1144
01:03:18.559 --> 01:03:21.000
And then Michael went on and he was like, well, Keith,

1145
01:03:21.159 --> 01:03:23.199
I think if you were in the situation I was in,

1146
01:03:23.320 --> 01:03:24.159
you would have done it.

1147
01:03:25.039 --> 01:03:26.679
Wow. I have to I'm gonna have to go listen

1148
01:03:26.719 --> 01:03:29.440
to that clip because you don't hear Tiith Morrison get

1149
01:03:29.480 --> 01:03:30.159
mad that often.

1150
01:03:30.480 --> 01:03:32.679
Yeah, it was. It was really really wish this was

1151
01:03:32.719 --> 01:03:36.760
an older episode too. I loved the way Keith looks today,

1152
01:03:36.800 --> 01:03:40.480
but he definitely was younger in this episode.

1153
01:03:40.519 --> 01:03:42.760
I wish you had done Keith Morrison's voice when you

1154
01:03:42.800 --> 01:03:44.880
read that quote, but a go for it.

1155
01:03:44.960 --> 01:03:47.719
No, no podcast, you could read it well, that is

1156
01:03:47.760 --> 01:03:52.360
the story of Linda Opdyke and Mark Stover and Michael Oakes.

1157
01:03:52.800 --> 01:03:54.400
It made me miss having a dog.

1158
01:03:55.000 --> 01:03:56.760
Yeah, me too. Dogs are the best.

1159
01:04:03.519 --> 01:04:06.039
Before we go, I want to talk about short people.

1160
01:04:06.599 --> 01:04:10.000
I want justice for short people. I feel like people

1161
01:04:10.039 --> 01:04:14.360
talk about being tall as if it's this great attribute

1162
01:04:14.400 --> 01:04:16.679
that you have anything to do with. You can't help

1163
01:04:16.760 --> 01:04:20.039
if you're born short or tall. And especially for men.

1164
01:04:20.679 --> 01:04:24.599
My heart goes out to men who are shorter because.

1165
01:04:24.840 --> 01:04:27.199
It does it does affect your life, It does affect men.

1166
01:04:27.679 --> 01:04:30.079
I think things have gotten a little easier because now

1167
01:04:30.119 --> 01:04:34.599
there's terms like short king that people refer to, you know,

1168
01:04:34.719 --> 01:04:42.159
shorter men. You are pretty average, not only in height way,

1169
01:04:42.239 --> 01:04:44.440
But what do you think the average height for a

1170
01:04:44.480 --> 01:04:46.679
man is? I think it's like five ten, it's five

1171
01:04:46.719 --> 01:04:48.159
to nine, and you are.

1172
01:04:49.880 --> 01:04:52.199
Five eight and three quarters maybe okay?

1173
01:04:52.239 --> 01:04:53.960
And the average hype for women, what do you think

1174
01:04:53.960 --> 01:04:57.159
that is five six seven? That's what I thought, But

1175
01:04:57.239 --> 01:04:59.480
it's five to three and a half. What Yeah, so

1176
01:04:59.519 --> 01:05:01.559
I'm a little taller than I'm five six and you

1177
01:05:01.679 --> 01:05:04.719
are five nine. But it's just funny that people think

1178
01:05:04.800 --> 01:05:08.119
like being tall, you know, is better than being short.

1179
01:05:08.320 --> 01:05:09.960
Does give you a step up and if you want,

1180
01:05:10.039 --> 01:05:12.000
especially if you want to be a basketball player. That's

1181
01:05:13.239 --> 01:05:16.880
one thing it's always bothered me about basketball is if

1182
01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:20.360
you're like seven feet tall, you are way more likely

1183
01:05:20.400 --> 01:05:22.800
to be a basketball star than if you're five feet

1184
01:05:22.920 --> 01:05:23.400
is they're a.

1185
01:05:23.360 --> 01:05:26.360
Short person's league. There is where the hoops are.

1186
01:05:27.280 --> 01:05:28.800
Like any I think any league.

1187
01:05:28.559 --> 01:05:32.400
Can I believe in some places there are leagues for

1188
01:05:32.519 --> 01:05:35.480
shorter people to play. But I guess that's a good point.

1189
01:05:35.920 --> 01:05:38.679
Keith referred to Michael, who I am not defending Michael.

1190
01:05:38.880 --> 01:05:43.000
This all this diatribe is not defending Michael Oaks, but

1191
01:05:43.199 --> 01:05:47.119
Keith called him a diminutive dad, and diminutive is not

1192
01:05:47.239 --> 01:05:50.599
necessarily a bad word, but yeah, it sounds a little

1193
01:05:50.599 --> 01:05:50.960
to meaning.

1194
01:05:51.119 --> 01:05:53.000
Wait, how tall was Michael He was.

1195
01:05:53.000 --> 01:05:56.280
Five six, but he was also like just a very

1196
01:05:56.320 --> 01:05:59.079
slight man. He probably weighs one hundred and forty or

1197
01:05:59.079 --> 01:06:02.159
one hundred and fifty. Okay, Well, there are a lot

1198
01:06:02.159 --> 01:06:05.880
of men who are celebrities that aren't super tall. Tom

1199
01:06:05.960 --> 01:06:08.400
Cruise pending on the day of the week, is five

1200
01:06:08.480 --> 01:06:11.519
six or five seven. Kevin Hart is five feet two inches.

1201
01:06:11.960 --> 01:06:16.039
Daniel Radcliffe is five inches. Prince was five to two,

1202
01:06:16.199 --> 01:06:20.760
Martin Scrucesi five foot four, Bruno Mars five to five. Anyway,

1203
01:06:20.800 --> 01:06:22.519
you get the idea. It could still be.

1204
01:06:22.559 --> 01:06:24.880
Short and success since he was tiny.

1205
01:06:24.960 --> 01:06:26.239
He was a little guy. Yeah.

1206
01:06:26.280 --> 01:06:29.360
Well, my grandma, who was the person who I admired

1207
01:06:29.400 --> 01:06:32.679
most in my life, she was probably four foot ten

1208
01:06:33.000 --> 01:06:34.039
maybe if that.

1209
01:06:34.239 --> 01:06:34.800
Wow.

1210
01:06:34.920 --> 01:06:38.679
She was just so adorable. She was this little, tiny woman.

1211
01:06:38.840 --> 01:06:40.719
She had the best sense of humor, and she would

1212
01:06:40.719 --> 01:06:43.400
always talk about how her favorite form of humor was

1213
01:06:43.440 --> 01:06:46.239
puns because it was known to be the lowest form

1214
01:06:46.280 --> 01:06:48.639
of humor and she was very low to the ground,

1215
01:06:48.840 --> 01:06:52.920
so it's very cute. You remember Randy Newman's song short

1216
01:06:52.960 --> 01:06:55.480
People that was a big hit right back in the day.

1217
01:06:55.880 --> 01:06:58.760
When somebody did a response to that called tall People.

1218
01:06:59.360 --> 01:07:02.760
All I remember is the chorus was don't want no

1219
01:07:02.880 --> 01:07:05.079
tall people, no basketball people.

1220
01:07:07.559 --> 01:07:09.719
Yeah, it's just something that you can't help at all.

1221
01:07:10.599 --> 01:07:14.360
People judge you on it, they do. But only fourteen

1222
01:07:14.360 --> 01:07:17.159
to fifteen percent of American men are actually six feet

1223
01:07:17.239 --> 01:07:19.639
or taller. I thought it was higher than that, and

1224
01:07:19.960 --> 01:07:23.800
ninety nine percent of American women are under six feet Wow.

1225
01:07:24.039 --> 01:07:28.360
What about coupling like Michael and Linda, there is at

1226
01:07:28.440 --> 01:07:31.159
least six inches of height difference between them. Yeah, I

1227
01:07:31.159 --> 01:07:32.119
feel like that should matter.

1228
01:07:32.320 --> 01:07:34.679
Not really, there is that We do have the one

1229
01:07:34.679 --> 01:07:37.239
couple in her neighborhood that goes for a lock and

1230
01:07:37.280 --> 01:07:40.719
he is like probably six foot four and she's a

1231
01:07:40.760 --> 01:07:41.679
little tiny one.

1232
01:07:41.760 --> 01:07:44.880
Yeah. Sometimes you will mistake her for like a child

1233
01:07:45.039 --> 01:07:48.760
because it's really tiny. They look very happy.

1234
01:07:49.000 --> 01:07:50.440
Yeah, they're very adorable.

1235
01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:53.599
The other day we were talking and it surprised me

1236
01:07:53.679 --> 01:07:57.239
when you said you were very observant sometimes, because I

1237
01:07:57.280 --> 01:08:00.599
think I'm super observant, but I don't don't really think

1238
01:08:00.599 --> 01:08:03.639
you are. But you did notice something new that I bought.

1239
01:08:03.880 --> 01:08:06.000
I did you put it? There? Was like a snail,

1240
01:08:06.159 --> 01:08:09.519
a little concrete snail statue that was in our front floor,

1241
01:08:09.519 --> 01:08:11.480
But I think I noticed it like the day you

1242
01:08:11.519 --> 01:08:11.960
put it up.

1243
01:08:12.079 --> 01:08:13.880
You did well, it might have been the next day.

1244
01:08:14.320 --> 01:08:16.640
But I have a question for you, because you're so observant,

1245
01:08:17.359 --> 01:08:19.479
what color shirt was I wearing when it was charted

1246
01:08:19.520 --> 01:08:20.239
this episode?

1247
01:08:22.479 --> 01:08:24.560
I have absolutely no idea.

1248
01:08:24.560 --> 01:08:26.880
Did I change my shirt or am I wearing the

1249
01:08:26.920 --> 01:08:27.760
same shirt?

1250
01:08:28.359 --> 01:08:34.960
Yes, I have absolutely no idea, no clear episode. I'm

1251
01:08:35.000 --> 01:08:37.760
such a bad You did this intentionally.

1252
01:08:37.279 --> 01:08:42.319
Intentionally I started wearing a pink tank top and then

1253
01:08:42.359 --> 01:08:45.920
I changed to a brown tank top. Wow, and I'm

1254
01:08:45.920 --> 01:08:52.760
currently wearing a black tank top. It's a while to record.

1255
01:08:52.760 --> 01:08:54.680
It takes us a couple of hours usually, and we

1256
01:08:54.920 --> 01:08:55.800
take bathroom breaks.

1257
01:08:55.800 --> 01:09:00.279
So well done, Tina, bravo. I salute you. But now

1258
01:09:00.319 --> 01:09:03.279
I have a question for you. There is something in

1259
01:09:03.319 --> 01:09:07.279
the house that is different that if you are so observant,

1260
01:09:07.520 --> 01:09:10.560
you would definitely have noticed, and you haven't said anything

1261
01:09:10.600 --> 01:09:12.520
about it. And I'm pretty sure you would have said

1262
01:09:12.520 --> 01:09:13.239
something about it.

1263
01:09:13.279 --> 01:09:16.239
Is it your Nope?

1264
01:09:18.600 --> 01:09:20.840
No, you really have no idea. If you walk down

1265
01:09:20.880 --> 01:09:25.079
the hall from our bedroom to our recording studio, it

1266
01:09:25.079 --> 01:09:27.039
would be very plain to you. I'll be right back.

1267
01:09:28.640 --> 01:09:31.560
Tina is walking down the hall and I think what

1268
01:09:31.600 --> 01:09:34.399
she is about to find out is that a week

1269
01:09:34.439 --> 01:09:38.479
ago I actually patched and painted the wall that has

1270
01:09:38.520 --> 01:09:41.239
been bugging her for a long time. And here she's

1271
01:09:41.279 --> 01:09:44.279
coming back. Now she's coming back. But it literally has

1272
01:09:44.359 --> 01:09:47.920
been a week since I did that. And I did it,

1273
01:09:48.520 --> 01:09:49.159
and you're back.

1274
01:09:49.319 --> 01:09:53.079
I did it that here here's to kick her up. Amazing.

1275
01:09:53.479 --> 01:09:56.680
Thank you. That was so wonderful that you did that.

1276
01:09:57.159 --> 01:09:59.640
But the thing that was bothering me was the pictures

1277
01:09:59.680 --> 01:10:03.439
are too high? Did you lower the pictures? I would

1278
01:10:03.479 --> 01:10:06.680
have noticed. Bravo to you. Wow, well played.

1279
01:10:07.319 --> 01:10:10.159
It's funny because the day we had the conversation about

1280
01:10:10.159 --> 01:10:13.319
being observant was I had done it. I had done

1281
01:10:13.319 --> 01:10:15.199
it when you were out that day, and I was

1282
01:10:15.239 --> 01:10:17.720
thinking to myself, I wonder how long it will take.

1283
01:10:17.920 --> 01:10:21.239
That is really funny. I think now I can't guarantee it,

1284
01:10:21.279 --> 01:10:23.159
but I think if you would have lowered the pictures,

1285
01:10:23.600 --> 01:10:25.880
I would have noticed. But that was the thing that

1286
01:10:26.760 --> 01:10:29.319
it's hard to explain, but yeah, we put these pictures

1287
01:10:29.399 --> 01:10:31.800
always about a year ago, and I was like, when

1288
01:10:31.840 --> 01:10:33.079
you put them up, I was like, oh, I think

1289
01:10:33.079 --> 01:10:34.920
they're too high. I have a thing about art being

1290
01:10:34.960 --> 01:10:38.079
too high, and I was going to ask you to

1291
01:10:38.079 --> 01:10:40.479
lower them. And I said, oh, you know what, it's okay.

1292
01:10:40.479 --> 01:10:42.600
I'll probably adjust and I have it in the year

1293
01:10:42.640 --> 01:10:43.159
and I'm like, I.

1294
01:10:43.199 --> 01:10:46.079
Think, well, now I'm going to wait until you least

1295
01:10:46.119 --> 01:10:47.800
suspect it. I'm going to lower them and we're going

1296
01:10:47.880 --> 01:10:51.279
to see how I think we have both come to

1297
01:10:51.319 --> 01:10:54.560
the conclusion that we are both selectively observant.

1298
01:10:54.880 --> 01:10:56.720
I have not come to that conclusion.

1299
01:10:58.000 --> 01:10:59.800
Well, thank you all so much for hanging out with

1300
01:10:59.880 --> 01:11:04.239
us today. Please rate, review, follow, and subscribe. Find us

1301
01:11:04.279 --> 01:11:07.399
at lovemarykill dot com or on social media.

1302
01:11:07.399 --> 01:11:11.079
Or the Jokes and the We'll tell your jokes at

1303
01:11:11.119 --> 01:11:12.239
another episode.

1304
01:11:12.239 --> 01:11:14.800
We've only gotten a few, but please send us. If

1305
01:11:14.800 --> 01:11:16.960
you have a good joke that you want us to hear,

1306
01:11:17.319 --> 01:11:20.000
go to Lovemarykill dot com. Leave us a voice message

1307
01:11:20.079 --> 01:11:21.039
with you telling the joke.

1308
01:11:21.119 --> 01:11:23.920
Now, are you playing the people's voices without their fashion?

1309
01:11:24.680 --> 01:11:25.600
We have their permission?

1310
01:11:26.000 --> 01:11:27.359
You sure we have their permission?

1311
01:11:27.800 --> 01:11:31.560
When you leave a voice message, it explicitly says Tina

1312
01:11:31.560 --> 01:11:32.199
and Rich may.

1313
01:11:32.199 --> 01:11:34.439
Use this, so yeah in big letters.

1314
01:11:35.159 --> 01:11:37.399
I don't know. I'm sure no one will have a

1315
01:11:37.399 --> 01:11:40.840
problem with us playing their joke. I would, and please

1316
01:11:40.880 --> 01:11:44.079
consider supporting us on Patreon. Go to patreon dot com

1317
01:11:44.119 --> 01:11:47.640
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1318
01:11:47.680 --> 01:11:50.479
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1319
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a monthly bonus episode until next time.

1320
01:11:53.760 --> 01:11:57.039
Don't care a husband and don't kill your wife. Don't

1321
01:11:57.159 --> 01:12:02.640
kill your husband, don't kill your wife.

1322
01:12:05.840 --> 01:12:35.880
To pick the cott