Lynlee and Ben Renick - Part 1

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Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned

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in over twenty years of marriage,
some days you'll feel like killing your husband

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and some days you'll feel like killing
your wife. Welcome to love, Mary

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Kill or Tina. Hi Rich coms
savah, No, thank you. That's

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ok. I've exhausted my entire fresh
vocabulary, so I go back to English.

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Now, Okay, how was your
trip? It was good. Long.

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I'm a little tired, so listeners, he will probably fall asleep in

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the midst of this podcast. I'm
not sure how you're awake right now.

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I'm kind of running on fumes.
So I flew home yesterday from France after

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being there for a week. And
I did not really sleep a whole lot

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while I was there. And I
can you say why? Well, yeah,

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it was well a the hotel I
was in didn't have air conditioning,

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and it was like ninety five degrees, which was unseasonably warm, right,

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very hot, which is like thirty
five for you if you're in the Celsius

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countries. And yeah, no air
conditioning, and it was just super loud

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like outside of my hotel, and
like I just yeah, I didn't sleep

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a whole lot, and you like
your sleep, Rich likes he likes eight

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hours. I am an eight hour
of sleep kind of guy. And then

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yeah, and then I flew home, you know, eight hour flight yesterday,

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So it was a long day.
Went to bed pretty early, like

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nine o'clock. I stayed up as
long as I could. That's crazy that

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you did that. But then I
woke up at two thirty this morning.

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So there was a Michigan game on
last It was a yeah night game.

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I couldn't even watch the whole game. But then you woke up and you

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had some good news, right,
Yes, yes, things you were a

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little you got a little nervous.
First half did not go well, but

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the second half apparently went much better. But yeah, I woke up at

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two thirds. I tried to get
back to sleep, and finally I gave

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up at like five and Bananas got
up and I made a breakfast sandwich using

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one of the croissants that I brought
home from Paris. Yeah, it's very

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good. Okay, I'm going to
offend the Parisian listeners. I'm sure if

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you were there in Paris, because
when I you brought several you got a

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lot of nice things home. That
was very yummy. But the croissant,

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I was like, Costco is pretty
good, So way to go Costco.

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Yeah, because I really was like, if I had to choose right now,

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I would say the Costco. Well, to be fair, I know

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what you're saying, But to be
fair, I did have to like cram

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that into my laptop bag and it
was a day old by the time we

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got it, so it wasn't the
ideal situation to eat a croissant. But

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but yeah, I know what you
mean. Yeah, but the macarons were

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very good. Yeah they were good
or delicious. Yeah. Well I've got

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a couple of snacks that I brought
home too that I haven't shared with you

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yet. Okay, well let's get
business and stuff first. Yeah, a

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couple of things we wanted to get
to. So we wanted to talk about

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ads. So, as we talked
about last week, we are starting to

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run ads. Unfortunately, we don't
always have like control exactly where the ads

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are, and you know, sometimes
it can be kind of jarring, it

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might interrupt you. We're doing our
best to try to make the ads appear

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in a logical place, like at
a break and things like that. But

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I apologize and appreciate people sticking with
us even through you know, maybe some

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annoying ads. They're a little abrupt. Sometimes I have listened to podcasts that

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are much bigger than us that have
the same issue too, Like, once

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you agree to have ads, sometimes
you don't have a ton of control.

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So we apologize for that. It's
a challenge which is working on it his

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best. But yeah, we're going
to try to like make like natural breaks

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and say Okay, we're gonna take
a break now, and then hopefully an

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AD will appear there if it's going
to appear. But we also do have

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our Patreon that we started, so
if you are really annoyed by ads and

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you'd rather listen AD free, we
would love it if you would you have

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an extra five dollars a month,
but if you don't, we still of

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you just the same. Patreon dot
com slash love Mary Kill. We have

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one episode available right now on our
Patreon about the disappearance of Brittany Drexel,

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And this week we're going to have
a little We're trying something new, an

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episode called Cookies and Crime or Crumbs. We're not sure where we're going with

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it yet, but it's just going
to be probably like a fifteen to twenty

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minutes, and I am going to
every at least once a month, I

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will make a new cookie for rich
and you will. I love this idea.

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I love this idea because they're probably
like, oh great, we don't

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get a cookie. But yeah,
I'll try. I'll try some new recipes

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because I really do need to get
out of my comfort zone because I have

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like ten recipes that I make all
the time. But I'm going to try

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some new things. Maybe I am
excited about that. Yeah. Do you

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see what I'm wearing today? I
do. It's a very cool necklace.

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My friend, our friend Francie is
an artist and she creates these amazingly beautiful

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pieces. She finds all these really
cool stones, like these yellow earrings that

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I'm wearing with this pretty yellow stone
and the necklace is, uh, it's

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too cool for me because it's it's
just it's just it's a snake and you

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said that it goes. Yeah,
but please go check out Francis. She

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has an Etsy site. Her shop
is called Peach Mountain Designs and it's just

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really cool, interesting stuff that you're
not going to see anywhere else. The

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holidays are coming and I think any
lady would be happy to get something from

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Francy shop. It's really cool,
unique and one of a kind. And

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I talked to Francy and she is
willing to give everyone a ten percent discount

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on her shop. JOSSI said it
was this week until through October. Through

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the end of October of twenty twenty
three, she is offering a ten percent

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discount, So use the code kill
ten kill ten kill ten. Yeah,

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please go check out her shop because
your stuff is it's really cool and really

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unique and I'm we're lucky to call
her a friend and two of our she

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made some drawings for us. Oh
yeah, they're so I mean, she's

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super talent. I don't think she's
drawing as much as she used to by

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focusing on the jewelry now pretty much. But yeah, she gets like these

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really cool stones and she just makes
really cool things out of them. But

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uh, yeah, these drawings,
I treasure them. They're really special.

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Yeah. Yeah, so Peach Mountain
Designs on Etsy. Yeah, this is

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not sponsored. This is just a
friend of me. I just think you

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guys would really like her stuff because
it's really cool, awesome. All right,

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So I do have a couple of
snacks for you from Paris. But

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before we get to that, I
thought I would share with you my observations

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about Paris. Well, you brought
me more snacks because he literally brought like

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cookies, he would you brought a
ton of Yeah, these are more like

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off the shelf kind of things you'll
see in a minute. But I thought

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I would share, Like, when
I was there, there were some things

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that I really liked about France and
some things that kind of annoyed me,

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and I thought I would share those. Okay, France, these are the

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big things, Like everybody knows that
the museums and the culture and the wine

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and all that stuff is amazing,
So these are more just my own little

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thing. So first of all,
things I like. One is that almost

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all the toilets have two buttons,
a big button and a little button,

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which I think is very cool.
So the little button is you know,

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yeah, some toilets here have that. Some do, but they're almost every

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toilet does. Okay, so you
can feel good about like pressing the little

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button and you feel like you're more
efficient all right too, But so they're

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not this is not in order,
okay, Okay. Two is lunches in

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Paris, so when you take a
lunch at work, but this is still

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you like, yeah, okay,
minimum of an hour for lunch, typically

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an hour and a half to two
hours for lunch, and that's like you

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just take that time for lunch here, like we work through lunch all the

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time. But there, no,
you don't do that. So that's pretty

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cool. Is your work day longer
then or you still again, I don't

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know. When you're traveling, your
workday is pretty well. Yeah that that

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whole lunch thing didn't apply last week
because we were in meetings all week.

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But normally you take an hour and
a half to two hours, okay,

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so that's pretty cool. Three is
just like everything has character there, like

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all the people, all the places. There's no like you know, strip

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malls that all look alike. It's
just everything is unique. Everybody is just

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a character. I mean, it's
just really like very cool. And last,

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but not least, is the people. So I think the people of

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France get kind of a bad rap, like there's sort of this reputation that

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they're like snobby and arrogant and not
true, not true at all. Maybe

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I encountered maybe a couple of people
that were a little bit like just Kurt,

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maybe not rude, slightly rude,
but most people buying large were super

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friendly and super fun. And the
people I work with really fun, like

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I'm not going to tell stories.
You told me one story that I'm not

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going to go into that, but
they like to have fun. They're a

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really fun group of people. So
do you think that you got any new

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listeners? Did you talk to people
are like, hey, well, they

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are all fascinated by what we do. I think fascinated because they're like it's

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just so weird to them. But
everyone is really intrigued. We do have

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people in France that are listening,
but not as many as like our Denmark

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friends or Great Britain and Australia.
We have a lot of listeners there.

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Well, we might have some new
ones this week, So shout out to

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all of you in France. All
right, the things that I didn't like

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that kind of annoyed me. Do
you think are you asking them to change

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these things? And maybe a couple
of them? Yeah, okay, all

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right. So one is the streets. Like the layout of the streets,

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it looks like you know, the
game pick Up Sticks. Yeah, it

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looks like somebody threw down a bunch
of pickup sticks and then drew a map

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based on that. Like it's just
getting from one place to another. It's

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so hard. Well, I think
are in Arbor is also kind of hard

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to get out. It's like it's
like a grid, right, It's like,

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oh, yeah, go two blocks
that way and then two blocks that

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way. Now this is like it's
like all triangles and just crazy. It's

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a crazy layout. Yeah. The
air conditioning situation, we talked about it

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already. Even the places that have
air conditioning, it's like not quite.

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I do worry about Europe a little
bit with climate change and air conditioning because

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I've heard it is kind of it's
it's a major issue. I felt like

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I had a layer of sweat on
me all week, all week long.

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So and you're not really a sweater
I'm really not, no, all right.

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The third one is that people are
skinny there. And the reason I

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don't like that is because it made
me feel very self conscious. I think

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here in the States, I feel
like I kind of blend in. I'm

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like, yeah, pretty average,
you're just a little chubby, but yeah,

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but over there, yeah, I
just I stood out well you're probably

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because you're so handsome. You are
a handsome devil. Yeah. Yeah's and

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then the last of one last thing. Some people in France they make a

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noise with their mouth. It really
annoys me. It's like it kind of

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sounds like a farting noise. It's
like it's like, is it like when

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when I would be like, ah, like that? It's kind of I

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mean like I don't know or something
like that, like like I just don't

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like that. Okay, well maybe
they can work on that point that when

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I think they could work on all
right, without further ado, let me

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give you your snacks. Okay,
oh they're buried underneath. So you know

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how, I like a good flavor
of potato chips that you can't find anywhere

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else. So I bought two bags
of lace potato chips. One is poulet

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roalti, which translates roughly to roast
chicken flavor. Oh okay, and then

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the other one is cheeseburger, which
I believe translates to cheeseburger flavor. Are

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you sure that might be a stress. Yeah. So I thought it would

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be really interesting to try these.
And these were in my suitcase and somehow

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they got opened during the flight.
Oh that's funny. Yeah. So are

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they kind of smitherines? Uh No, not really. I think they maintain

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they they're mostly intact. So what
chicken potato chip sounds really weird to me.

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But some kind of chicken and a
biscuit you know that cracker? Yeah

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those are yum. We don't really
buy those, but those are yummy.

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Yeah. Yeah, Okay, we're
gonna take a break and try to take

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a quick break. We'll try them
yet. Okay, Well, your reaction

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to the roast chicken lays was something
I've never seen before. I don't I

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have not had that reaction to the
food very often. I'll just describe it.

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You just basically screamed and ran out
of the room and said, well,

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we didn't have any napkins or tissue
in the room to spit it out

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into. It was horrible. I
did not care for the roast chicken ones

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either. Maybe for fun, I
could mail them to someone. If someone

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wants to try to them, I
could. I could mail them to Those

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are pretty gross. It's like you'd
have to try it to like because it

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doesn't have that like bull yanni taste
that a chicken and a biscuit does.

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It's I don't know what. I
can't even describe it. Tastes like like

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rotten chicken or taste horrible cheeseburger.
Not bad cheeseburger ones, just kind of

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taste like catch up and mustard to
me. Yeah, but yeah, that

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was fun. Thank you for bringing
those back. It was definitely fun to

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try some different things. I think
we might have had cheeseburger in the US,

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but I haven't seen them recently.
We should if we don't. Wow,

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all right, well we went through
a lot messing around a lot,

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I know. No, sorry a
little bit long here in the opening,

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but we Yeah, let's get into
today's case. If you're ready, I'm

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ready, all right, Are you
ready? Are you okay? Okay,

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I'm pretty good. Got to be
exhausted, okay, go ahead. In

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the world of snake breeding, Ben
Rennick was a rock star known worldwide among

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the rare, reptile and snake community. He was one of the first people

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in the world to successfully breed green
anacondas in captivity. At one time,

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he had the only female te positive
albino green anaconda in the world. What's

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t positive mean. It's the presence
of an enzyme called tie thairosanase, which

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basically I'm not I am no expert
on this at all, but you know,

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an albino on anacon implies that it
doesn't have any pigment, but this

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enzyme gives it some sort of pigment. So it's a albino. But it's

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not white. It's like a greenish
color type of thing, or a yellowish

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green color. But stop me if
you're going to get into this, I'm

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curious about how much a snake like
that would cost, Like how much get

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into a lot of that. Yeah, but I will say right now that

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green anacondas are the largest, heaviest
and the second longest snake in the world,

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like all BoA's. It's a non
venomous constrictor and so yeah, really

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big, big snake, very powerful. Yes, I was going to go

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into a little bit of this later, but I will say, like in

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terms of like the size, they're
like they can be like two hundred pounds

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or more, so really heavy.
And you asked about the price some of

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these, like Ben Rennick, the
one he had when it was really rare,

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he was able to sell the babies
for up to twenty five thousand dollars

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a pair. It's a super valuable. His specialty was a species of snake

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called the ball python. They're a
non venomous species that originates from Africa.

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The name ball python comes from the
animal's tendency to curl into a ball when

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it's stressed or frightened. Ben was
able to produce many ball pythons and other

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snakes that were incredibly rare and one
of a kind. By twenty seventeen,

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Ben was twenty nine years old and
had a collection of somewhere between twenty five

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hundred and three thousand ball pythons,
valued at a total of somewhere between one

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and two million dollars. But on
June eighth, twenty seventeen, Ben was

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murdered in the building where he kept
most of his snakes. It wasn't a

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snake that killed Ben, as the
police and paramedics who showed up at the

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scene first thought, But it must
have been someone incredibly cold blooded who shot

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him eight times, including the final
two shots in the back of his head

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as he lay on the concrete floor. So the question is was it a

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business deal gone wrong, a conflict
with his brother over their inheritance, or

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maybe a wife killing her husband for
money, or possibly an animal rights activist

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who was opposed to Ben keeping all
those snakes in captivity. I actually watched

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an episode of forty eight Hours,
I believe on Thish. Oh yeah,

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did you see that? Yes?
I did? Okay, yeah, So

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I am slightly familiar with the case. You said, inheritance from the from

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his parents or yes, okay,
I'll get into all that. Okay,

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let's talk about Ben's background. So, Ben and his older brother Sam grew

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up on a seventy two acre farm
in Montgomery, Montgomery County, Missouri,

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about seventy five miles west of Saint
Louis and fifty miles east of Columbia,

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Missouri. Sam and Ben were close
growing up, not surprising given their rural

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upbringing and not having many nearby neighbors. They spent a lot of time outside,

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playing, fishing, hiking, catching
snakes, which is where Ben's love

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of snakes got its start. In
many ways, it was an idyllic upbringing,

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but it was also marred by sadness. When Sam was six and Ben

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was four, their mother was diagnosed
with stage four breast cancer. I'm not

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sure how you have this conversation with
four and your six year old kids.

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But Frank sat them down and essentially
told them that their mother was going to

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die. But Kim Rennick was a
fighter. She battled her cancer for the

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next fifteen years, going through several
rounds of heavy chemotherapy and other procedures,

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at one point spending an entire year
at the Mayo Clinic while the boys stayed

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at a friend's house. She finally
passed away at home in two thousand and

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eight. Frank was devoted to Kim. He had put his heart and soul

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into taking care of her, and
he was really broken when she finally died.

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Frank ran a natural and organic pet
food and snack company, but in

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June of twenty twelve, he was
indicted on allegations of defrauding investors of over

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seven million dollars. Facing ten or
more years in prison and the prospect of

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losing the family farm, Frank instead
chose to end his life on Father's Day

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in twenty twelve. Here's what I
talked to Ben's brother Sam, and here's

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what he had to say about their
dad's suicide. And we were to lose

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our everything he had. He killed
himself as a sacrifice to my brother Andy,

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and if he hadn't, we would
have lost everything. So the farm

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was really special to them, right, It was just this huge farm they

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grew up on, and so it's
super sad that he did that, but

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he did it so that he could
save the farm for his kids. So

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Sam now is alone because his brother
died and both his parents. Well that's

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sad, yeah, really very sad. At the time of Frank's suicide,

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Ben was twenty four years old and
Sam was twenty six. The two brothers

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loved each other, but in many
ways they were opposites. While Sam was

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social, outgoing and fun, Ben
was more quiet, serious and introverted,

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focused and driven. Ben had turned
his hobby of collecting snakes and other reptiles

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into a valuable business. The terms
of their father's will were a bit complicated,

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but what essentially ended up happening was
an arrangement where Ben took ownership of

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the property while Sam took control of
most of the money and the mortgage,

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and so the brothers had to work
together to keep the farm going. The

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farm was a little bit of a
money pit, and while Ben's snakes were

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valuable, there wasn't a lot of
money coming in at this point, and

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so Sam had to pump a lot
of money over three hundred thousand dollars by

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his estimation into maintenance and upkeep of
the property. How big was the farm

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fifty four acres, I believe so
this arrangement, coupled with the fact that

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the two brothers are so different in
so many ways, definitely caused conflicts between

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them, and I believe there were
periods of time when they didn't really hang

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out or talk much, even though
they both lived in separate houses on the

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same farm. In addition to being
an expert snake breeder, Ben was also

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a talented drummer. He played in
a local heavy metal band while he was

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in his early twenties. Another member
of the band had a girlfriend, Lindley

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Gallatin, who would sometimes hang out
during the band's rehearsals. Ben and Lindley

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got to know each other a little
bit at that time, although nothing romantic

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developed until years later. What do
you think of Ben so far? And

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he sounds like a young guy trying
to figure out things, and it's just

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interesting. He had this passion for
snakes, and he asked how did he

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get the exotic snakes? Do you
know I don't really know for sure.

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I think a lot of them they
had to be imported originally because they that

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type of snake comes from just specific
countries in Africa. But then he reread

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them after that, so I assume
he just kind of kept reading them.

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Maybe I'll get into this. I'm
curious how the snakes are cared for and

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like if you have one of them, like where do you keep it?

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And because they're so large, and
yeah, I'll talk about that a little

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bit. It's a little bit.
Yeah, it's interesting, but let's for

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now, let's talk about Lindley.
So. Lindley Gallatin grew up in the

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small town of Wellsville, Missouri,
about fifteen miles north of the Rennicks Farm.

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Her dad, Lyndall, was an
electrician and her mom, Brenda,

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was a nurse and social worker,
and she had an older sister, April.

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Linley had a number of health issues
growing up. She struggled with migraines,

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eating disorders, and situational depression,
but she still managed to stay active

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as a cheerleader, making the All
American team one year and getting to travel

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to Florida for nationals. She was
tiny, barely over five feet tall and

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around one hundred pounds A couple weeks
after she graduated from high school in two

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thousand and six, she moved to
Jefferson City, Missouri, a little over

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an hour away, to live with
her sister, and there she started attending

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school to become a massage therapist.
She liked the idea of being a massage

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therapist because she was very social.
She liked being around people, and she

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liked helping and taking care of people, similar to her mother, who was

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a nurse. Around the end of
two thousand and six, she started dating

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a guy named Josh Hake. In
mar Arch of two thousand seven, right

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after she turned nineteen, and the
day before she was scheduled to take her

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massage board exam, she found out
she was pregnant. Josh, who was

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living a couple hours away in Saint
Louis at the time, was excited,

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but a couple months later, he
was involved in a serious car accident while

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he was vacationing at Lake of Ozark's
with some friends. Josh had been drinking

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and there were people seriously injured in
the accident, and he ended up getting

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sentenced to about ten years in prison. So Linley quickly lost touch with him,

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and she became a single mother when
her baby boy, Matthew, was

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born in January of two thousand and
eight. Shortly after she had Matthew,

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she started dating a guy named Michael
Humphrey. She had met Michael a couple

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00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:48.759
of years earlier. After posting pictures
of her baby, she and Michael started

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messaging online and soon started dating.
It wasn't a healthy relationship though. Humphrey

336
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had problems with drugs, both doing
them and selling them, and Linley ended

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00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:03.039
up getting a dick did to prescription
painkillers. It was a toxic relationship that

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00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:07.079
was on again off again for about
a year. One day in fall of

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twenty ten, Linley went to work
at the spa that she was working at

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in Columbia, Missouri, and she
suddenly realized that she had no memory of

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dropping her son off at daycare and
no memory of driving into work. It

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freaked her out and she realized that
she had to get off the painkillers and

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to get out of her relationship with
Michael, who she was living with at

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this point. She called her dad
that day and she told him everything,

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and after work, she grabbed what
she could from her in Michael's apartment and

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she and Matthew or Mattie as she
often called him, moved in with her

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dad. She quit the Painkiller's Cold
Turkey starting that day. During that time,

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Ben Rennick, who remember she had
met while she was in high school

349
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dating a bandmate of Ben's, messaged
her on Facebook and the two started chatting,

350
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catching up on things since they'd last
seen each other, and they hit

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it off. Lindley liked that Ben
was the oppid of Michael. He was

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00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:04.920
driven, motivated, and seemed to
have his act together. He was also

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respectful, kind and compassionate, and
he was great with her son, Matthew.

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Lindley and Ben both liked weird movies, like horror movies, and they

355
00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:18.519
had similar taste in music. They
both liked to read, and so they

356
00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:22.880
had some things in common as well. After just a couple months of dating,

357
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Lindley was considering a move to Saint
Louis to live with a friend,

358
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and Ben said, why don't you
move in with me. They decided to

359
00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:33.359
have a sleepover one night at the
farm with Matthew there as sort of a

360
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trial. Ben had made up the
spare room in the house as a bedroom

361
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for Matthew, and he made himself
part of Matthew's bedtime routine, which I

362
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think really helped win Linley over,
and so she and Maddie ended up moving

363
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:49.200
in soon afterwards. They had only
been dating for two or three months at

364
00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:52.920
that point, and then it was
only another month or so after Lindley moved

365
00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:57.359
in that they found out that she
was expecting. In twenty twelve, Lindley

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gave birth to a daughter, Amelia, also known as Emma. So twenty

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twelve started out good, but then
Ben's dad, Frank, got indicted and

368
00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:11.640
subsequently killed himself as I talked about
earlier, and then Lindley's mother, who

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had she had been very close to, also passed away that year. At

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the time that Frank died, Ben
was into the reptile breeding, but it

371
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was still more of a hobby than
a business. At that point, he

372
00:25:23.119 --> 00:25:26.680
and Sam were both working for their
dad's pet food business as a source of

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income. With Frank gone and the
company gone, Ben had to figure out

374
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what was next for him. He
didn't really know what he wanted to do

375
00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:38.559
with his life other than reptile breeding. He had already made some money at

376
00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:42.079
it, and so he decided to
scale it up as a real business and

377
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:45.799
turn it into a full time thing. All right, So I do have

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00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.039
some more facts about the reptile business
that I'll share with you now. So

379
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:55.240
I am not a fan of snakes, Like snakes are horrifying to me.

380
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I am not a big fan of
some people are like I'm not as scared

381
00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:03.960
of inside and spiders as I am
of snakes. If I had to choose

382
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between a snake and a big like
spider tarantula type of thing, I would

383
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:11.480
go for the snake. But I
don't like either of the snake. Yes,

384
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:14.799
if I had to hold one or
the other, I would like if

385
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:17.880
you were in fear factor, yeah, if I had a choice, But

386
00:26:18.039 --> 00:26:19.559
but I yeah, given a choice, I wouldn't do. I guess if

387
00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:23.400
if anyone remembers fear factor, like
you'd have to be in like this big

388
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:26.559
tank and then they would put like
a thousand spiders on you. Guess if

389
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:32.160
I had to choose between a thousand
spiders and one one ball python, I

390
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:37.480
would choose the one ball python.
But so Ben didn't do anything to defang

391
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:41.720
any of the snakes they were No, I mean, these are not the

392
00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:45.599
type of snakes they had were constrictors. So they weren't like the kind of

393
00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:49.079
like they weren't poisonous or anything like
that. So they're the kind of snakes

394
00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:52.759
they kill you by squeezing you to
death, not by biting you. But

395
00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:56.119
still, you know, two hundred
pounds snake. That's kind could be a

396
00:26:56.119 --> 00:27:02.480
little scary. Absolutely so snake.
It was at the time a very niche

397
00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:06.799
industry, but Ben made a name
for himself really early on. He was

398
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:10.920
able to acquire some snakes that were
relatively rare, and then he used genetics

399
00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:15.039
to create some truly first of their
kind snakes. Did you really Yeah,

400
00:27:15.079 --> 00:27:17.720
I mean he was really on the
forefront of, like, you know,

401
00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:19.880
breeding these snakes. It's pretty pretty
amazing. I don't know where he learned

402
00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:22.480
it. I was going to ask, did you go to school for that?

403
00:27:22.599 --> 00:27:25.119
I don't think so. I don't
really know how he learned all this,

404
00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:30.200
but not know how you would go
about engineering a snake. Yeah.

405
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.880
So his business grew pretty quickly to
the point where he needed help. He

406
00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:37.079
had a friend who helped him part
time, but that friend eventually left to

407
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:40.880
join the military. He hired someone
else, but they only lasted a couple

408
00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:45.480
of days. Since Lindley by this
point had gotten comfortable handling the snakes,

409
00:27:45.559 --> 00:27:48.400
Ben asked her if she if she
would help out, and she agreed.

410
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:52.839
Eventually, she quit her job as
a massage therapist and worked with Ben full

411
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:57.160
time. Her responsibilities gradually increased,
and the couple developed a division of labor

412
00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:03.400
where Lindley took on more of the
public facing responsibilities, like she would manage

413
00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:07.519
their participation at reptile shows. She
would interact with the public at these shows

414
00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:14.440
while Ben met with the more serious
potential business partners and buyers. Linley also

415
00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:18.440
handled media relations that she played a
key role in establishing the online presence of

416
00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:23.559
the business by helping to create YouTube
videos and a website. So now I

417
00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:26.079
thought i was going to talk about
it earlier, but now I'm really going

418
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:30.200
to talk about the snake breeding industry. I don't have more recent numbers,

419
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:34.440
but in two thousand and nine,
shortly before Ben turned Runneck Reptiles into a

420
00:28:34.440 --> 00:28:41.039
full time business, the US reptile
industry, including businesses that sell, provide

421
00:28:41.079 --> 00:28:47.000
services for, and manufacture products for
reptiles, accounted for annual revenues of between

422
00:28:47.319 --> 00:28:52.799
one and one point four billion dollars. The vast majority of reptile businesses were

423
00:28:52.839 --> 00:28:56.920
small, family run businesses. In
the nineteen nineties and two thousands, the

424
00:28:57.039 --> 00:29:03.599
US reptile industry experienced us significant shift
toward domestic captive breeding. According to a

425
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:11.359
report by the economic consulting firm Georgetown
Economic Services, quote, breeders have transformed

426
00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:18.119
snake husbandry from a hobby to a
viable profession through their successful cultivation of uniquely

427
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:23.000
colored snakes called morphs. So this
was what Ben really specialized in. Not

428
00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:26.279
everyone is a big fan of the
reptile industry, though. A couple of

429
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:32.640
years ago, a group called World
Animal Protection released a documentary that claims the

430
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:37.480
global reptile trade is a ticking time
bomb for infectious and deadly diseases. Ninety

431
00:29:37.559 --> 00:29:42.799
nine percent of all ball python global
imports originate from three West African countries,

432
00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:48.720
Togo, Benin, and Ghana.
The group also claims that conditions provided by

433
00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:55.279
breeders don't meet minimum recommended care standards. In captivity, ball pythons are kept

434
00:29:55.319 --> 00:30:00.000
in spaces much smaller than their natural
habitats allow. They're basically kept in small,

435
00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:03.720
all plastic drawers. So I've seen
pictures of Ben's facility that he kept

436
00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:07.519
the snakes in and we'll post a
picture online. But it's basically like row

437
00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:12.920
after row of shelving with plastic drawers
containing the snakes. So these two hundred

438
00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:17.000
pounds snakes are just kept in a
little drawer. I think the bigger ones

439
00:30:17.079 --> 00:30:21.400
maybe are kept in a different place, but the kind of the regular sized

440
00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:23.200
snakes, Yeah, they're kept in
like a drawer. It doesn't seem like

441
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:26.680
how big the drawer is. I
mean they're not that big. They're probably

442
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:32.000
yeah, a couple couple feet wide, maybe in a foot or two deep.

443
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:36.240
And do they ever get to Yeah, I think that's it. I

444
00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:37.839
think they just live in those Oh. I don't love that. I know

445
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:45.039
it seems a little cruel kind of
Yeah. Yeah. How many households in

446
00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:51.799
the US do you think own pet
reptiles? Have no idea like two percent?

447
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:56.759
Oh, I don't have a percent. I just have a number somewhere

448
00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:03.000
between four point five and four point
seven million households in the US owned are

449
00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:07.279
crazy? They maybe all right,
that's probably a good time to take a

450
00:31:07.319 --> 00:31:11.039
quick break. I can wash my
mouth out from that. I was gonna

451
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:14.799
say, you could have some more
of those chips, all right, We'll

452
00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:27.000
be right back. So apparently Our
daughter really liked the roast chicken potato chips.

453
00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:30.119
She is an interesting palette. She's
weird. To leave it at that,

454
00:31:32.279 --> 00:31:33.559
she's weird. She can hear you. She's right, I know,

455
00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:37.680
all right. Well, back to
the story. So we were talking about

456
00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:41.079
the reptile industry. Ben had,
you know, grown this over time from

457
00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:45.119
a hobby into an actual viable business. Lindley had started working full time on

458
00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:49.960
the business. Over time, Rennick
Reptiles essentially became Ben and Lindley's life.

459
00:31:51.519 --> 00:31:53.559
In the morning, Lindley would get
the kids ready for daycare or school.

460
00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:57.480
Then Ben and Lindley would work with
the snakes or on the business side of

461
00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:01.000
things. They'd take a break to
have lunch together. In the afternoon,

462
00:32:01.119 --> 00:32:04.920
Linley would go pick up the kids. The family would have dinner together,

463
00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:07.960
and then it was back to work
after that. A few months after Amelia

464
00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:12.359
was born, the couple decided it
would be good to have a weekly date

465
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:15.000
night, and so they found a
regular babysitter and set aside one night a

466
00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:20.359
week to check out from the snake
business. That was good, but over

467
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:24.359
time tensions started growing between the couple. After being together for three or four

468
00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:29.880
years, they finally got married,
but Linley felt like Ben was starting to

469
00:32:29.880 --> 00:32:36.759
treat her more like an employee than
a spouse. She also Linley out she

470
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:39.799
was kidding, you're lovely. She
also felt like Ben didn't think that she

471
00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:44.839
was contributing to the family financially,
and so she ended up getting her massage

472
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:47.960
therapy license again after it had lapsed, and she went to work for her

473
00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:52.720
old boss at a spa called River
Song. She quickly built up her client

474
00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:57.960
base and after about six months,
she and Ben talked about the possibility of

475
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:00.359
her opening her own spa. It
had been a dream of hers, and

476
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:05.119
so Ben told her that she should
write up a business plan and they would

477
00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:08.200
take it to their financial advisor.
If their advisor felt like it was a

478
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:13.279
solid plan, they would go forward
with it. So Linley put together a

479
00:33:13.319 --> 00:33:16.319
business plan. They met with their
financial advisor, who said it was a

480
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:21.960
good plan except for some of the
financial projections being off. But Linley was

481
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:25.400
super excited because she got the go
ahead. But then she later claimed that

482
00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:30.000
in the car returning from that meeting, Ben said to her, well,

483
00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:32.920
if I had known that Chuck the
financial advisor would say yes, I would

484
00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:37.920
never have encouraged you to do this
in the first place. So Linley said

485
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:40.640
that she was hurt thinking that Ben
had been in support, but now she

486
00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:45.839
believed he was only encouraging her to
come up with a plan because he didn't

487
00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:47.799
believe that she could really do it. Keep in mind, this is all

488
00:33:47.880 --> 00:33:52.960
Linley. You know her story after
the fact. So well, Linley,

489
00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:54.920
at this time, she's like twenty
five ish, I think around there,

490
00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:00.240
Okay, yeah, maybe a little
younger. Even so, she did move

491
00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:05.440
forward and they opened the spa called
Essensia. It opened shortly after Mother's Day

492
00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:10.400
of twenty sixteen in Columbia in a
trendy village called Cherry Hill. Linley was

493
00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:15.280
more comfortable with the people side of
things, but less so on the business

494
00:34:15.320 --> 00:34:20.320
and the operations side of things,
and so she hired a woman named Ashley

495
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:25.320
Shaw as the office manager of Essensia. Lindley and Ashley had met they had

496
00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:30.039
worked together at the River Song Spa. Ashley would handle the front desk duties.

497
00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:35.480
She would take payments, order supplies, do inventory, help with the

498
00:34:35.559 --> 00:34:39.440
finances. Linley claimed that she was
in demand as a masseuse by many regular

499
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:43.719
clients, which may be the case, but I think that It's also true

500
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:47.280
that Ashley had a more dominant personality
than Lindley, and Lindley was happy to

501
00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:52.760
let Ashley take control of most aspects
of the business. Unfortunately, the SPA

502
00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:59.559
was underwater financially from the beginning.
Construction costs had run over by thirty thousand

503
00:34:59.639 --> 00:35:02.480
dollars, which took away any buffer
they might have had while getting the business

504
00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:07.800
off the ground. They got behind
on bills and Ben would have to pump

505
00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:13.760
more money into the SPA business using
the proceeds from selling snakes. By twenty

506
00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:17.559
seventeen, the stress in Ben and
Lindley's marriage was growing along with the financial

507
00:35:17.559 --> 00:35:22.920
troubles at the SPA. In March, they exchanged messages, with Ben saying

508
00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:25.719
quote, we need to really put
our heads together and figure everything out,

509
00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:29.880
because we both know what's going to
happen if we don't make a few drastic

510
00:35:29.960 --> 00:35:34.280
changes. Linley replied, quote,
should we call it quits with the SPA.

511
00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:38.519
I'm not angry or being sarcastic.
I am legitimately asking. I understand

512
00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:43.119
very much the reality of this and
honestly want to know what we need to

513
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:47.119
do. Ben responded, the reality
is right now, your spa can't keep

514
00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:50.719
at the path. It's going right
now. We've had the talk, and

515
00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:53.480
going into April we are still losing
one thousand dollars a week to keep it

516
00:35:53.519 --> 00:36:00.480
open. The overall financial picture for
the couple started looking up in twenty seventeen

517
00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:06.199
as Ben entered into an agreement to
sell his entire ball python collection around twenty

518
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:12.119
five hundred or three thousand snakes altogether, to an NHL goalie named Robin Lenner

519
00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:15.920
who played for the Buffalo Sabers.
Although Ben had valued the collection at one

520
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:21.039
point nine million dollars, the negotiated
price that he and Lennar agreed on was

521
00:36:21.079 --> 00:36:24.760
one point two million. Lennar made
a down payment of it was either one

522
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:28.719
hundred thousand dollars or it might have
been two hundred thousand dollars. I've read.

523
00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:31.320
I've read two different accounts there.
But he put it down payment down

524
00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:37.840
and then the promise was that he
would pay two hundred thousand dollars every quarter

525
00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:42.239
every three months, while Ben continued
to keep the snakes at the facility and

526
00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:45.880
breed them on behalf of Lennard.
Why did he want all those snakes?

527
00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:49.760
I have no idea. The goalie, he sounds like a little bit of

528
00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:53.639
a character he later had. He
had he had some issues we'll talk about

529
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:57.639
in a little bit, but I
guess he just loved snakes. What it

530
00:36:57.639 --> 00:37:00.639
seems like if Ben were to sell
them individually, he would have probably been

531
00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:02.960
able to make a lot more money. Yeah, but you know, if

532
00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:07.360
somebody comes and offers you like one
point two million dollars for everything, you

533
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:09.639
know, that's pretty got to be
pretty tempting, especially if you're having some

534
00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:15.920
financial challenges. It's not clear to
me whether Ben was thinking about getting out

535
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:20.039
of the business by selling his entire
collection or if he was just planning to

536
00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:22.559
get a big payout and then kind
of start over. In any case,

537
00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:25.400
though Leonard he turned out to be
kind of flaky. He didn't make the

538
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:30.519
payments as promised. On the day
that Ben was murdered, he sent a

539
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:34.119
message to Lindley saying, quote,
Robin is a lot of talk and not

540
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:38.079
a lot of showing me anything unquote. About a year after Ben's death,

541
00:37:38.199 --> 00:37:44.199
Leonard actually declared bankruptcy, saying that
he had liabilities of over fifty million dollars,

542
00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:47.840
and then he went into rehab to
address substance abuse issues as well.

543
00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:52.320
So it sounds like he had a
lot of issues and I think he would

544
00:37:52.360 --> 00:37:55.760
just like buy stuff, snakes and
stuff. Yeah. Yeah, so Ben

545
00:37:55.800 --> 00:38:00.199
never relinquished the snakes. No,
no, he never. He still had

546
00:38:00.199 --> 00:38:05.480
the snakes at the time of his
death. Yeah. Linley had grown close

547
00:38:05.559 --> 00:38:08.199
to her office manager, Ashley,
and she would confide in her and vent

548
00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:14.119
to her about the problems in her
marriage. Linley also started cheating on Ben

549
00:38:14.199 --> 00:38:17.119
with other men. First, it
was with someone she had previously had a

550
00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:21.719
relationship with. She and this other
guy were both married, and she claims

551
00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:24.280
that they only hooked up once while
she was married to Ben. But then

552
00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:30.239
Linley started an ongoing relationship with a
guy named Eric Bremer, who was a

553
00:38:30.280 --> 00:38:35.440
marketing director at the agency that Linley
used to promote the SPA. This affair

554
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:38.880
went on for the first half of
twenty seventeen, with the two sometimes having

555
00:38:38.920 --> 00:38:43.800
sex at the SPA. It was
complicated, though, because they also had

556
00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:47.760
a business relationship and Linley felt like
Eric was falling short with his marketing duties.

557
00:38:49.880 --> 00:38:53.480
Linley also signed up for the website
Ashley Madison shortly before Ben was killed.

558
00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:58.360
Linley did, yeah, I know, we've talked about Ashley Madison a

559
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:01.519
few times lately if you're not aware, it's the website that hooks people up

560
00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:06.199
to have affairs. Their motto is
life is short, Have an affair.

561
00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:12.039
But yeah, I guess Lindley and
her friend Ashley Shaw both decided let's do

562
00:39:12.199 --> 00:39:17.679
this and you know, spice up
our lives a little bit interesting. Yeah,

563
00:39:17.719 --> 00:39:21.960
and I think Lindley's friend Ashley also
thought that it would be a good

564
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:25.679
distraction from some of the drama that
was happening with her other boyfriend with Eric.

565
00:39:27.800 --> 00:39:31.039
On Ashley Madison, Lindley met a
guy named Brandon Blackwell and started seeing

566
00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:37.320
him even though she was still also
seeing Eric Bremer and still married to Ben.

567
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:39.079
Of course, who didn't know about
any of this. How does she

568
00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:44.760
do it only twenty four hours in
the day. Yeah. Monogamy was apparently

569
00:39:44.840 --> 00:39:46.440
very important to Ben, as it
is to a lot of married people.

570
00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:50.639
Of course, had he found out
about the affairs, I think the marriage

571
00:39:50.679 --> 00:39:55.079
would surely have ended. So that's
the backdrop leading up to Ben's murder on

572
00:39:55.280 --> 00:40:00.320
June eight, twenty seventeen. Sounds
like a lot of stress between the couple,

573
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:06.280
Yes, definitely. Lindley's spa was
losing a thousand dollars a week.

574
00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:10.679
She's having multiple affairs with different guys. Ben has a big deal in the

575
00:40:10.679 --> 00:40:15.400
works, right with this hockey goalie, but it seems like the buyer might

576
00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:20.320
be flaking out. The marriage is
obviously struggling, even if none of Ben's

577
00:40:20.360 --> 00:40:23.320
family or friends really realized it at
the time. All right, let's go

578
00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:28.960
through the timeline of the day that
Ben was killed. So Lindley is allegedly

579
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:31.840
at the spa all day, which
is about a forty five minute drive from

580
00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:37.000
the farm. At three forty five, Ben texts Linley asking if she is

581
00:40:37.039 --> 00:40:42.079
still good to pick up the kids
or if he needs to. Twenty minutes

582
00:40:42.159 --> 00:40:45.079
later, at four o six pm, a message comes back from Lindley saying

583
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:50.039
I need you to I'm not going
to be able to leave right now.

584
00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:54.360
There's no reply from Ben. At
five thirteen, Lindley is apparently about to

585
00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:59.760
leave the spa and head home,
and she messages Ben quote, Hey,

586
00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:04.159
I'll need to stop and get gas
then home. Oh so I'm just gonna

587
00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:07.920
stay right there, red flag.
Hey love Like that's you know, yeah,

588
00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:13.599
that's not really how well we do
sometimes, but I'm feeling I'm yeah,

589
00:41:13.880 --> 00:41:16.760
okay, just put a pin in
that one, and then her text

590
00:41:16.840 --> 00:41:21.880
continues, I'll text Katherine, which
was their babysitter. It was a date

591
00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.800
night that they had planned for Ben
and Linley and let her know to come

592
00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:28.800
at five forty five so you don't
have to wait with her and the kids

593
00:41:28.840 --> 00:41:31.840
for me. Right after that,
at five fifteen, Linley texts the sitter,

594
00:41:32.039 --> 00:41:36.519
Katherine, saying that she's running a
little late and asking her to come

595
00:41:36.559 --> 00:41:40.480
a bit later than originally planned.
At five forty five, Linley receives a

596
00:41:40.519 --> 00:41:45.119
call from the kids school saying that
the kids haven't been picked up yet.

597
00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:49.360
Right after that, she tries calling
Ben, both on his business line and

598
00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:52.840
on his cell phone. Not getting
an answer, she messages him quote,

599
00:41:53.079 --> 00:41:55.920
so I just got a call from
the school that Maddie and Emma are still

600
00:41:55.960 --> 00:42:00.320
there. Are you on your way? At five, she messages him again,

601
00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:04.440
at least call me back, please. I called Catherine and told her

602
00:42:04.440 --> 00:42:08.400
to hold off on coming. Another
call to Ben's cell phone a minute later,

603
00:42:08.440 --> 00:42:13.000
and then another message, if you're
on the phone with Robin, call

604
00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:17.440
him back and call me. Seven
minutes later, at five fifty nine pm,

605
00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:21.960
she tried calling Ben again on his
business number and his cell number,

606
00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:25.760
and then at six zho one pm
another message starting to worry a little love,

607
00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:31.360
please call me back. At six
sixteen pm she tries calling Ben one

608
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:36.480
last time. So all these messages, I'm not sure if she was texting

609
00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:39.360
and driving, but it's like a
forty five minute drive from the spa and

610
00:42:39.400 --> 00:42:42.679
then having to you know, going
to pick up the kids as well,

611
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:45.119
So it was probably like all during
that hour, you know, from the

612
00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:49.719
time she left the spa until she
actually got back to the farm. So

613
00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:53.039
she did arrive back on the farm
after picking up the kids probably around six

614
00:42:53.159 --> 00:42:57.360
twenty five pm. Do you know
how old the kids are? Yeah?

615
00:42:57.400 --> 00:43:01.320
I think Matthew was nine at this
time and Amelia was five, Okay,

616
00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:05.119
so they weren't like in daycare.
They were think, yeah, it was

617
00:43:05.159 --> 00:43:08.079
some type of school and so yeah, all that all those messages, so

618
00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:13.280
basically to sum it up really quick
before she gets back to the farm.

619
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:17.239
So Ben messaged her at three forty
five. That was the last we've heard

620
00:43:17.239 --> 00:43:21.039
from Ben. He basically messaged her
saying are you good to pick up the

621
00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:23.880
kids? And then all the other
messages are really from her to Ben,

622
00:43:24.480 --> 00:43:28.039
like you know, where are you? All that kind of thing until the

623
00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:30.559
school calls her and says, hey, no one's no one's picked up the

624
00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:34.760
kids. So at three forty five, the last text we have from Ben

625
00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:37.519
he was he was alive. He
was alive, and we don't have any

626
00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:42.440
question as to whether that was him
that sent the restaurant okay, And the

627
00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:45.599
reply back to Ben was twenty minutes
later and he never replied to that,

628
00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:50.480
so he was alive at three forty
five. He got another message at four

629
00:43:50.599 --> 00:43:54.000
h six that he didn't reply to
all right, So all that to say.

630
00:43:54.119 --> 00:43:58.880
She arrived at the farm with the
kids around six twenty five. She

631
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:00.760
told the kids to wait in car
because she later said that she had a

632
00:44:00.760 --> 00:44:05.960
bad feeling. After not getting any
replies from Ben, she walked into the

633
00:44:05.960 --> 00:44:09.840
snake facility and she found Ben lying
face down on the floor in a pool

634
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:15.960
of blood. Hysterically, she called
Ben's brother, Sam, who also lives

635
00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:19.880
in one of the houses on the
farm. Sam rushed over and went in

636
00:44:19.960 --> 00:44:23.599
while Lindley called nine one one.
Sam turned his brother over and could tell

637
00:44:23.719 --> 00:44:29.519
right away that he was dead because
his head was essentially caved in. Oh

638
00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:32.719
Sam's first thought was that it must
have been a snake maybe Ben's two hundred

639
00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:37.320
pound anaconda had crushed his skull.
Oh god. When police arrived, they

640
00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:40.880
were freaked out. They were assuming
that there was a giant killer snake on

641
00:44:40.920 --> 00:44:45.880
the loose somewhere. Here's a short
bodycam clip of them talking to Lindley.

642
00:44:46.199 --> 00:44:50.599
You can hear how hysterical she is
as they're trying to get answers about the

643
00:44:50.639 --> 00:45:02.480
snake situation. No building an anaconda. I know it's critical right now.

644
00:45:02.719 --> 00:45:08.280
We need to make sure nobody else
gets hurt. So she's basically saying the

645
00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:12.559
anaconda is down in the basement,
but there. They are obviously freaked out.

646
00:45:13.280 --> 00:45:16.400
They entered the facility with their guns
drawn ready to shoot. Here's another

647
00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:21.239
short clip from the bodycam footage where
you can hear how concerned they are about

648
00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:27.039
the snake situation. Well, something
got him. Paramedic center is a bike

649
00:45:27.079 --> 00:45:30.360
mark blom So if they're just snake
los in here, so watch your a.

650
00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:36.559
Do we have anybody we could call
them? Deal with an anaconda.

651
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:42.960
I'm gonna go. We'll see you. Sorry. That's it's horrible, but

652
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:45.400
it is a little bit we could
call. I don't blame them one bit.

653
00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:49.199
I mean it's pretty scary. Snakes
all over the place, Yeah,

654
00:45:49.320 --> 00:45:52.239
for sure. So how big is
the ball python? The ball pythons are

655
00:45:52.280 --> 00:45:57.840
not nearly They're not like the anaconda. They're like six feet maybe in length.

656
00:45:58.119 --> 00:46:00.599
Three to five pounds I think is
what I read. So they're they're

657
00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:04.639
relatively tight compared to the anaconda.
And there's only one anaconda as far as

658
00:46:04.639 --> 00:46:06.800
I know, he only had the
one anaconda. Like I said, he

659
00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:08.400
kept it. They kept it in
the basement. I don't know what type

660
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:10.639
of enclosure it was in, but
yeah, I think they just had the

661
00:46:10.639 --> 00:46:15.880
one anaconda. Okay, so I'm
dumb and earlier when you were talking about

662
00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:22.760
the snakes in the drawers, I
was picturing the drawers. My bad,

663
00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:24.199
I shouldn't explained that. Yeah.
Yeah, the snakes in the drawers were

664
00:46:24.280 --> 00:46:28.519
much smaller. Still, it still
seems like not the best place to live,

665
00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:31.679
if you're right, but it's it's
kind of Yes, the drawer would

666
00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:37.719
be a little more comfortable, exactly. Yes, So the police there said

667
00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:39.840
that he had a bite mark.
Yeah, I think that was incorrect.

668
00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:45.039
I think the EMT. So the
EMT actually went in. She was not

669
00:46:45.239 --> 00:46:47.559
scared of snakes. She had grown
up around snakes like apparently, and she

670
00:46:47.639 --> 00:46:51.079
was like, I'll go in,
and she went in. I think she

671
00:46:51.199 --> 00:46:53.719
told them that he had a bite
mark, but I don't think she knew

672
00:46:53.760 --> 00:46:59.039
for sure. Okay, So once
they finally did get the nerve to go

673
00:46:59.079 --> 00:47:01.199
in, it didn't take them long
to figure out that Ben hadn't been killed

674
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:05.159
by a snake at all. In
fact, he had been shot eight times

675
00:47:05.199 --> 00:47:09.000
in the back, eight times mostly
in the back and in the back of

676
00:47:09.039 --> 00:47:15.519
the head. And I think that's
why it appeared like his skull was kind

677
00:47:15.559 --> 00:47:19.559
of crushed or his head was crushed
a little bit, is because the last

678
00:47:19.639 --> 00:47:22.159
at least one, maybe two shots
were basically in the back of his head

679
00:47:22.159 --> 00:47:25.800
while he was laying on the concrete
floor. So you can imagine that would

680
00:47:25.880 --> 00:47:31.280
cause a lot of damage to one's
skull. Yeah, did they have guns

681
00:47:31.320 --> 00:47:36.880
on the premises, I don't know
for sure. I never saw any mention

682
00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:39.079
of guns or anything like that.
I'm guessing living on a farm like that,

683
00:47:39.199 --> 00:47:43.719
maybe you do have some firearms,
but I'd never saw anything about it.

684
00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:47.920
So the first person that came under
suspicion for Ben's death was his older

685
00:47:47.960 --> 00:47:52.599
brother Sam. When Lindley was interviewed
by detectives the morning after his death.

686
00:47:52.760 --> 00:47:57.320
She pointed the finger at Sam,
saying that he had a motive because he

687
00:47:57.440 --> 00:48:02.559
and his brother's finances were intertwined and
they had conflicts relating to money and ownership

688
00:48:02.599 --> 00:48:06.119
of the farm. Well, Linley, I remember you saying, she's like

689
00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:10.679
this tiny, one hundred pound girl
woman, and the police aren't going to

690
00:48:10.760 --> 00:48:15.559
suspect her initially, I'm guessing probably
not right. Also, the EMT at

691
00:48:15.559 --> 00:48:19.159
the scene, who we talked about
a little bit, but this was a

692
00:48:19.199 --> 00:48:23.400
woman named Diana Wassman. She told
detectives that she thought that Sam may have

693
00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:28.039
had something to do with the murder, and also that he had said some

694
00:48:28.119 --> 00:48:31.199
questionable things while he was while she
was on the scene, for example,

695
00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:37.360
that's right, I'm the brother murderer. So the police brought Sam. She

696
00:48:37.519 --> 00:48:40.159
told police that Sam had said something
like that's right, I'm the brother murderer,

697
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:44.039
like right after his death. Yeah, when she was on the scene

698
00:48:44.039 --> 00:48:46.599
and Sam was on the scene,
I asked him about that. And I'll

699
00:48:46.599 --> 00:48:50.840
talk about that in a minute and
play a clip of what he actually said

700
00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:53.360
about that. But before we get
to that, the police brought Sam in

701
00:48:53.679 --> 00:48:58.840
for an interrogation and they asked him
flat out whether he killed his brother.

702
00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:02.320
And here's a short clip from that
interrogation. Sam, did you have anything

703
00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:17.320
anything? No, I can't,
no answered, I'm markable mind around all

704
00:49:17.360 --> 00:49:22.679
this stuff. I know you could
ask you sort of questions. I know

705
00:49:22.840 --> 00:49:28.000
you would have my brother. So
Sam was very cooperative with the police.

706
00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:32.320
He agreed to get tested for gunpowder
residue and to take a lie detector test.

707
00:49:32.719 --> 00:49:37.440
He gave detectives his shirt to be
tested, his phone, his emails.

708
00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:42.719
He was later confirmed to be at
work at the time of Ben's murder,

709
00:49:43.079 --> 00:49:45.559
and so pretty quickly he was cleared
as a serious suspect. But I

710
00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:49.639
did when I spoke to Sam,
I asked him about the remarks that he

711
00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:52.719
supposedly made the night of Ben's murder, because it was kind of weird.

712
00:49:52.760 --> 00:49:55.000
They talked about it on dateline,
like why would he say, oh,

713
00:49:55.039 --> 00:50:00.400
yeah, I'm the brother murderer according
to him. The em he Wassman.

714
00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:05.760
She had a history with the Rennick
family, and Sam did not mince words

715
00:50:05.800 --> 00:50:08.719
about her. She didn't like my
father. She worked with my father in

716
00:50:08.719 --> 00:50:15.079
the past. He fired her.
She's a piece of Montgomery White trash and

717
00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:20.719
she had to be flustered. She
suggested something that I made it involved in

718
00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:24.159
the murder to not go anywhere,
and I made a like a snapback comment

719
00:50:24.239 --> 00:50:29.440
like, yeah, I'm the person
who murdered reviews sarcastically. I was in

720
00:50:29.519 --> 00:50:34.320
a staff shock. I just slipped
my brother over in his head was destroyed.

721
00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:37.760
Okay, that makes more sense.
He was just exasperated and that's kind

722
00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:44.599
of small town life. Yeah,
yeah, for sure. Another thing investigators

723
00:50:44.599 --> 00:50:47.880
considered was that maybe Ben's murder was
the result of a business deal gone bad.

724
00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:52.079
After all, he had over a
million dollars worth of snakes in the

725
00:50:52.119 --> 00:50:54.559
facility where he was killed, but
nothing was stolen, and there were no

726
00:50:54.719 --> 00:51:00.639
other signs that supported that theory.
On the day of Ben's murder, Lindley

727
00:51:00.719 --> 00:51:04.960
had also agreed to a gunpowder residue
test, which came up negative as well.

728
00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:08.559
Four months later, she agreed to
a polygraph test, which she failed,

729
00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:14.599
specifically on the question did you shoot
Ben. Lindley couldn't explain why she

730
00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:17.440
failed, just insisted that she didn't
do it. But we all know that

731
00:51:17.480 --> 00:51:24.000
polygraph tests aren't admissible, so investigators
needed more evidence At that point, after

732
00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:29.760
the initial flurry of activity from investigators, the trail seemed to go cold.

733
00:51:30.440 --> 00:51:32.760
Detectives never labeled it as a cold
case. They always claimed that it was

734
00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:37.880
still active, but they weren't sharing
a lot of details, and there were

735
00:51:37.880 --> 00:51:43.039
no arrests for two and a half
years following Ben's murder. While there were

736
00:51:43.079 --> 00:51:47.239
no arrests for a long time,
Lindley's behavior definitely started raising some eyebrows.

737
00:51:49.079 --> 00:51:52.360
First of all, she continued seeing
Brandon Blackwell, the guy that she had

738
00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:57.559
met on Ashley Madison. She told
police about her affair with Eric Bremer as

739
00:51:57.599 --> 00:52:00.320
well, I guess because she knew
that they would find out a way.

740
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:06.320
She also started isolating herself and the
kids from Sam and other people that were

741
00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:09.199
close to the family, and then, in a shocking blow to Sam,

742
00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:14.760
just three months or so after Ben's
death, she sold the property that Sam

743
00:52:14.760 --> 00:52:19.000
and Ben's parents had bought many years
earlier, and she gave Sam thirty days

744
00:52:19.039 --> 00:52:22.079
to vacate. Why she was able
to do that, Yeah, I mean

745
00:52:22.119 --> 00:52:24.599
it was her property now and she
could do what she wanted with it,

746
00:52:24.679 --> 00:52:30.000
and she sold it like Sam didn't
own he had property. Was on no

747
00:52:30.159 --> 00:52:35.559
the way that the that their inheritance
worked is that Sam got the money and

748
00:52:35.880 --> 00:52:38.719
Ben got the property. So it
was really it was really a sad situation.

749
00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:44.079
It's horrible. It is horrible.
And here's what Sam. What happened

750
00:52:44.119 --> 00:52:47.800
to the spa is a spa still
running. It went out of business at

751
00:52:47.840 --> 00:52:51.679
some point. Honestly, I don't
know exactly when it went out of business,

752
00:52:51.719 --> 00:52:55.480
but I assume it was sometime within
that two year period. So here's

753
00:52:55.519 --> 00:53:00.679
what Sam had to say about Lindley
selling the farm. I don't know how

754
00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:02.880
she sleeps at night. You know, my father killed himself so we could

755
00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:08.159
keep that property, and she do
that very well, didn't care. She

756
00:53:08.320 --> 00:53:12.719
do the arrangement of did night hat
with with my shares of the land,

757
00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:17.079
didn't care. So he's obviously pretty
bitter about it, which I totally understand.

758
00:53:17.559 --> 00:53:22.079
That's horrible. I know it really
is horrible, and she I don't.

759
00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:24.800
We talked about this probably almost every
episode. I just don't understand greed.

760
00:53:25.039 --> 00:53:29.360
I like money, I like nice
things, but I would never hurt

761
00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:31.880
someone like that, I know,
I know. It's yeah, it just

762
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:36.000
makes me so mad, it does. It makes me mad too. The

763
00:53:36.039 --> 00:53:38.360
property that he grew up on and
his parents, you know, sacrifice so

764
00:53:38.440 --> 00:53:43.559
much something that they could have.
It's just really, you got nothing,

765
00:53:44.039 --> 00:53:49.400
you got nothing, you got nothing. Wow. Yeah, and the fact

766
00:53:49.400 --> 00:53:53.480
that she also just isolated the kids
completely, didn't you know after what he

767
00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:58.719
told me was that the last time
he saw the kids was at Ben's funeral,

768
00:53:58.800 --> 00:54:02.519
and then after that she just basically
took them and took them away.

769
00:54:02.679 --> 00:54:06.559
So it's horrible. Yeah, the
whole thing is really horrible. So where

770
00:54:06.559 --> 00:54:09.519
did she go? Do you know? I don't know where she went.

771
00:54:09.599 --> 00:54:15.239
I'm assuming maybe she went to live
with her now, but we'll see.

772
00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:17.039
Yeah, I don't I don't know
where she was living after that. I

773
00:54:17.079 --> 00:54:21.440
know she didn't live on the farm. I know she you know, didn't

774
00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:23.880
go back after Ben was killed,
but I'm guessing she stayed with her dad,

775
00:54:23.920 --> 00:54:29.280
but I don't know for sure.
So I think that's a good time

776
00:54:29.320 --> 00:54:31.960
to break for part one. I
should have mentioned it up top, but

777
00:54:32.000 --> 00:54:36.440
you probably know by now this is
a two part episode, so I didn't

778
00:54:36.440 --> 00:54:39.840
know. Yeah. Yeah, Well, how are you doing. I'm a

779
00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:43.960
little sleepy, I'm doing good.
You're pretty perky. I think I'm more

780
00:54:43.960 --> 00:54:46.480
tired than you are. I'm sure
I will crash sometime this afternoon. I'm

781
00:54:46.519 --> 00:54:52.400
going to watch the Lions football game, and then thank you for clearing clarifying

782
00:54:52.760 --> 00:54:55.239
the Lions. I thought you just
made he were gonna, you know,

783
00:54:55.639 --> 00:55:00.719
watch the Lions in the backyard or
on YouTube video ball game. Okay,

784
00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:04.400
Yes, I will be watching the
football game of the Detroit Lions, and

785
00:55:04.519 --> 00:55:07.320
I may fall asleep during that game. We'll see. Hey, we're coming

786
00:55:07.400 --> 00:55:13.760
up on our first anniversary. What
we are, not our marital anniversary,

787
00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:17.440
but yeah, and I was wondering
if maybe anyone has any questions or any

788
00:55:17.480 --> 00:55:24.280
comments or anything you want us to
talk about during our little mini anniversary special.

789
00:55:24.440 --> 00:55:28.360
What should they do? If they
have questions, they should email us

790
00:55:28.599 --> 00:55:31.480
at love Mary Kill at gmail dot
com or message us. Message us on

791
00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:40.480
social media on Instagram or Twitter,
Facebook, Twitter, You mean x X.

792
00:55:40.880 --> 00:55:44.880
Yes, so I was thinking earlier
today. There's a few things that

793
00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:49.519
you should know about rich. He
really loves a sandwich. He really loves

794
00:55:49.519 --> 00:55:52.480
football, I do. I guess
that's all. I Those are the only

795
00:55:52.480 --> 00:55:57.000
two things. I mean, there's
other things. I mean, you're well,

796
00:55:57.000 --> 00:56:00.039
no, no, no, you
really love music music like yeah I

797
00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:04.280
do. Yeah, you have an
eclectic taste in music. Yes, So

798
00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:07.360
do you think those are like the
three of the most pretty three pretty good

799
00:56:07.360 --> 00:56:12.599
things. Yeah. Yeah, so
a lot, big, big, big

800
00:56:12.639 --> 00:56:15.280
football fan you talk about the Lions. I just want you to be able

801
00:56:15.320 --> 00:56:19.559
to like point back to this episode
and you can say, hey, I

802
00:56:19.679 --> 00:56:22.800
told you so. This is their
second game of the season. Yes,

803
00:56:22.239 --> 00:56:27.079
they won their first game against the
Super Bowl champion Kansas City Chiefs, and

804
00:56:27.199 --> 00:56:29.480
that really did put a pep in
your step for a couple of days.

805
00:56:29.559 --> 00:56:31.159
Yeah, you're pretty happy. So
where do you think the Lions are going

806
00:56:31.239 --> 00:56:32.920
to go this season? Who are
they playing today? First of all,

807
00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:37.239
they are playing the Seattle Seahawks.
Okay, so the Lions and the Bears,

808
00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:40.199
which you know if I am from
Chicago and I am a fan of

809
00:56:40.239 --> 00:56:44.199
the Chicago Bears, but I'm like
kind of a tepid, like, yeah,

810
00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:46.000
you know, not quite that passionate
about it now. I used to

811
00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:50.079
be when I lived in Illinois,
but I've been in Michigan for so long,

812
00:56:50.159 --> 00:56:52.519
and not that I am a Lion
fan, oh no, but I

813
00:56:52.519 --> 00:56:57.920
don't really pay attention. And then
the whole like brain injury made me love

814
00:56:57.960 --> 00:57:02.079
football a little less. But but
the Lions have had a hard go of

815
00:57:02.119 --> 00:57:06.239
it. If you're familiar with football
at all, you would know that the

816
00:57:06.280 --> 00:57:09.880
Lions are like they have notoriously been
a bad team for many, many,

817
00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:15.239
many years. The super Bowl has
been around for like fifty seven years and

818
00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:17.840
the Lions have never even come close
to being in the super Bowl. And

819
00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:22.559
the Bears we did have like the
I believe it was nineteen eighty seven,

820
00:57:23.280 --> 00:57:27.719
just a we've had a lot of
heartbreak too. Yeah. Yeah, but

821
00:57:27.719 --> 00:57:30.760
the Lions and Bears do play each
other twice, yes, so, but

822
00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:34.639
not today, not today? Okay, So what do you think is going

823
00:57:34.679 --> 00:57:37.119
to happen for the Lions this season? I would like you to be able

824
00:57:37.119 --> 00:57:39.119
to I think they're going to make
the playoffs. I really, I really

825
00:57:39.159 --> 00:57:43.360
feel confident that they are going to
make the playoffs. Whether they go far

826
00:57:43.400 --> 00:57:46.920
in the playoffs, who knows.
I believe you have said, I've said

827
00:57:46.920 --> 00:57:51.679
that around the dinner table, that
they could go to the super Bowl.

828
00:57:51.840 --> 00:57:55.639
I think it's I think it's possible. Yeah, you must said very of

829
00:57:55.639 --> 00:58:00.159
course it's possible. I mean,
they play in the NFL, anyone go

830
00:58:00.239 --> 00:58:02.559
to the super Bowl if I okay, if I if you're going to pin

831
00:58:02.679 --> 00:58:06.760
me down to make a prediction that
we can go back and look at later.

832
00:58:07.239 --> 00:58:12.079
My prediction will be that they will
make it to the NFC Championship Game,

833
00:58:12.119 --> 00:58:14.840
and they will lose the NFC Championship
games, so they won't go to

834
00:58:14.840 --> 00:58:16.480
the super Bowl, but they'll get
close. You realize, like ninety percent

835
00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:22.360
of our listeners are females. They
already they already turned off this episode,

836
00:58:23.280 --> 00:58:28.079
right, Well, hopefully your dreams
come true. I hope so too.

837
00:58:28.519 --> 00:58:30.000
And I don't really have root for
the Lions, but I root for you

838
00:58:30.039 --> 00:58:35.199
to be happy. And Michigan is
doing pretty well to rank number two.

839
00:58:35.239 --> 00:58:38.159
If you had to pick between Michigan
and Lions, you would probably well,

840
00:58:38.159 --> 00:58:40.960
you'd probably want the Lions to do
better, just because they've done so badly

841
00:58:42.039 --> 00:58:44.440
for so long. It would just
mean so much to the city. Are

842
00:58:44.480 --> 00:58:49.239
you a bigger Michigan fan or a
Lions fan? I don't know, kind

843
00:58:49.239 --> 00:58:52.400
of the same. I love them
both. Yeah. Yeah. We used

844
00:58:52.400 --> 00:58:55.280
to live like right by the stadium
in ann Arbor, so that was really

845
00:58:55.760 --> 00:59:00.119
Stadium Boulevard, did it was?
Yeah? That was a super fun on

846
00:59:00.159 --> 00:59:05.639
Saturday team days. I think that's
all we have. Sorry about the little

847
00:59:05.639 --> 00:59:09.000
football chat, all right, well, thank thank you everybody for listening.

848
00:59:09.119 --> 00:59:14.280
Definitely tune back for part two.
Yeah, that was that was very interesting.

849
00:59:14.440 --> 00:59:19.559
Thank you just reach out delicious nacks. Can't see enough good things about

850
00:59:19.840 --> 00:59:23.280
those We'll talk about at the end
of part two. But but I'm super

851
00:59:23.320 --> 00:59:29.880
appreciative of Sam Rennick talking to me
and sharing his insights and all that.

852
00:59:29.920 --> 00:59:34.519
It was really I felt I'm always
hesitant to reach out to someone who is

853
00:59:34.559 --> 00:59:37.440
close to the victims because the last
thing I want to do is make them

854
00:59:37.559 --> 00:59:40.119
relive any trauma or anything like that. But I just I had this sense

855
00:59:40.119 --> 00:59:44.400
when I saw him on dateline that
he was open to talking, and sure

856
00:59:44.480 --> 00:59:47.400
enough he was just like, yeah, ask me anything, open book,

857
00:59:47.559 --> 00:59:51.159
you know, whatever you need.
That was great. Thank you so much,

858
00:59:51.159 --> 00:59:53.199
Sam for doing that, and a
great good job to you for reaching

859
00:59:53.199 --> 00:59:57.320
out to say. I'm yeah,
I'm a little hesitant to do that,

860
00:59:57.360 --> 01:00:00.639
but yeah, great job. Thanks. Really it was really good to hear

861
01:00:00.679 --> 01:00:06.360
his voice and the audio voice crystal
clear like sometimes our audio our clips are

862
01:00:06.679 --> 01:00:08.519
not so crystal clear. Yeah.
Well, thanks everybody for listening. Come

863
01:00:08.519 --> 01:00:14.599
back for part two. Follow us
on social media check out our patreon at

864
01:00:14.679 --> 01:00:19.239
love Mary Kill. We would certainly
appreciate that, and until next time.

865
01:00:19.719 --> 01:01:00.480
Don't eat the chicken chips. Don't
eat the chicken chips. The