Jan. 26, 2026

Melissa and Christopher Wolfenbarger

Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconYouTube podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconYouTube podcast player icon

Melissa Dawn Patton grew up in a deeply unstable environment and spent much of her life trying to build something safer for herself and her children. Quiet, shy, and trusting, she married young, became a mother almost immediately, and hoped that starting her own family would bring the stability she never had.

Instead, her life became increasingly chaotic. By her early twenties, Melissa was working long hours and trying to leave a volatile, abusive marriage. In late 1998, she disappeared. What followed was years of silence. The only people searching for answers were her family.

Support us on Patreon: https://patreon.com/lovemarrykill

Today’s snack: Waffle House waffles


Sources:

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:01.879
Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina.

2
00:00:02.080 --> 00:00:04.200
If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years

3
00:00:04.200 --> 00:00:05.280
of marriage.

4
00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:07.799
It's that some days you'll feel like killing your husband,

5
00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:08.320
and some.

6
00:00:08.439 --> 00:00:10.160
Days you'll feel like killing your wife.

7
00:00:10.359 --> 00:00:12.640
Welcome to love, Mary Kill.

8
00:00:27.800 --> 00:00:29.920
Hey Tina, Hey Rich, How are you today?

9
00:00:30.039 --> 00:00:31.160
I am good? How are you?

10
00:00:31.480 --> 00:00:32.399
I'm doing pretty good.

11
00:00:32.560 --> 00:00:34.880
You pulled me away from my electric blanket.

12
00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:36.719
Though, I am so sorry to be the.

13
00:00:36.399 --> 00:00:41.119
Loveliest, most luxurious electric blanket. It's really nice and I

14
00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:44.359
was under it doing my next case and now I'm

15
00:00:44.399 --> 00:00:45.320
in this cold room.

16
00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:45.759
Yeah.

17
00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:47.960
I'm not a big electric blanket guy, but that one

18
00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:50.840
is really nice. I'm a little bit jealous. It's very

19
00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:53.719
luxurious and you need it right now. It's just Spencer,

20
00:00:54.159 --> 00:00:57.359
so so cold, NonStop, and no end in sight either.

21
00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:00.159
Yeah, and you just had to clear the driveway again.

22
00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:02.439
Yeah again, too many times so far.

23
00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:05.159
This is You're more coming our way, not just us, though.

24
00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:07.200
It's kind of scary. What's gonna happen? Like down in

25
00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:08.480
the South. I don't know if you've heard about it.

26
00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:12.920
They're expecting inches of ice and like areas that don't

27
00:01:12.920 --> 00:01:15.519
get snow, like up to thirty inches of snow and

28
00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:17.519
like Nashville and places like that that.

29
00:01:17.719 --> 00:01:19.799
They're just not equipped to deal with that.

30
00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:23.280
It literally closes down the state until the snow melts,

31
00:01:23.319 --> 00:01:25.239
and it's just it's a disaster.

32
00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:27.200
So I'll stay safe out there.

33
00:01:27.400 --> 00:01:29.519
I hope you guys are safe and warm and snug.

34
00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:31.560
And the thing that happens too, especially with ice, is

35
00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:35.799
people lose power. And you know, snow day and ice

36
00:01:35.879 --> 00:01:36.640
day is all fun.

37
00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:37.760
And good until your power.

38
00:01:37.879 --> 00:01:38.680
Yeah, it's really so.

39
00:01:38.799 --> 00:01:40.640
I hope you're all safe, and I hope that when

40
00:01:40.680 --> 00:01:43.280
this episode comes out that everyone is warm and snug,

41
00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:45.840
but I know that that's probably not gonna be the case.

42
00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:48.640
Do you want to have a snowball fight later? Yeah,

43
00:01:48.760 --> 00:01:50.519
let's even though it's super cold.

44
00:01:50.680 --> 00:01:52.280
Oh, I was gonna bring the snow inside.

45
00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:56.120
That's one of the best things we ever had, is

46
00:01:56.519 --> 00:01:57.760
those fake snowballs.

47
00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:00.000
Yeah. They're just like little stuffed snow.

48
00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:00.400
Yeah.

49
00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:02.280
They were like fifty of them in the container and

50
00:02:02.319 --> 00:02:06.879
whenever the kid's friends. Yeah, all right, before we get

51
00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:09.039
into the snack, it can smell. You made me something

52
00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:12.280
really delicious. I wanted to give another podcast a shout out.

53
00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:14.800
A listener let me know that they gave us a

54
00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:17.639
shout out, which was very kind and appreciated. So I

55
00:02:17.719 --> 00:02:22.000
just wanted to mention Murder Unscripted by Ed and Melissa.

56
00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:24.599
I listened to them today and they're great. So if

57
00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:26.840
you guys are looking for another podcast to listen to,

58
00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:30.159
I recommend that you give Murder Unscripted with Ed and

59
00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:31.400
Melissa a try.

60
00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:32.840
Very cool Ed is.

61
00:02:32.840 --> 00:02:36.879
Actually a true crime TV producer turned podcaster with over

62
00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:41.240
twenty years of experience producing Forensic Files, Cold Case Files,

63
00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:43.240
and a lot of other great shows like that, so

64
00:02:43.439 --> 00:02:44.840
he knows what he's talking about.

65
00:02:44.919 --> 00:02:47.439
Well, I did make you a snack. It is staying

66
00:02:47.479 --> 00:02:49.680
warm right now in the airfire. I'll go get it.

67
00:02:49.719 --> 00:02:51.360
But before I do that, I'll tell you about it.

68
00:02:51.400 --> 00:02:55.879
I made you a copycat waffle House waffle awesome. Today's

69
00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:58.919
case is going to be in Atlanta, and the victim

70
00:02:58.919 --> 00:03:01.680
actually worked at waffle house, and I just it made

71
00:03:01.719 --> 00:03:04.719
me want waffles as I was researching the case, thinking

72
00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:07.080
about waffle house. We don't have them around here, and

73
00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:08.800
I thought, I'm going to make a waffle.

74
00:03:09.199 --> 00:03:09.719
It's funny.

75
00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:13.120
I remember our honeymoon, which was four hundred and twelve

76
00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:16.879
years old. I hadn't been down south a lot.

77
00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:18.599
I guess. We drove to Orlando.

78
00:03:18.680 --> 00:03:20.680
We drove to Orlando, and then we had a two

79
00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:22.680
week honeymoon. We went to Orlando and then we went

80
00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:24.840
to Jamaica for the second week, but we drove the

81
00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:26.120
first lag because you know.

82
00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:27.319
We've always loved a car trip.

83
00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:30.960
But the amount of waffle houses in the South was

84
00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:32.360
just flabbergasting to me.

85
00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:35.800
Yeah, it was chef every exit. So I actually ordered.

86
00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:38.680
Waffle House makes a waffle mix that you can order,

87
00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:40.319
and I actually ordered it, but it's not going to

88
00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:43.159
get here until next week, so I just may I

89
00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:44.879
found a copycat recipe and made that.

90
00:03:44.960 --> 00:03:46.439
So okay, I tried it.

91
00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:48.639
Not the biggest waffle fan, but I bet it's going

92
00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:49.319
to be delicious.

93
00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:51.120
All right, I'll go get it and we'll give it

94
00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:59.520
a try. Did you enjoy your copycat waffle House waffle?

95
00:03:59.719 --> 00:04:01.639
Well, first, I have to tell our listeners that we

96
00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:03.599
had to take a field trip to go down to

97
00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:06.520
the kitchen because obviously waffles are a little messy, and

98
00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:09.680
when you make things, you're a very good cook, but

99
00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:12.159
you are not the neatest cook. So I have to

100
00:04:12.360 --> 00:04:15.719
roast you a little bit about that. There's like little

101
00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:21.160
you know, trails of flour and batter and you know.

102
00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:22.360
So it happens.

103
00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:23.600
It happens.

104
00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:24.920
It's not how you have to clean it up. But

105
00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:27.279
I ain't no big deal. I, like I said, I'm

106
00:04:27.319 --> 00:04:30.600
not the biggest waffle fan. So they were good, yeah,

107
00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:32.720
but I wasn't in love with it.

108
00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:35.000
I'm not really sure what makes We haven't been to

109
00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:37.279
the waffle house in many years, and I'm not really

110
00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:39.680
sure what makes a waffle house waffle different than a

111
00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:42.199
regular waffle. To me, it tastes like a regular waffle.

112
00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:43.079
Weren't they really big?

113
00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:45.480
I don't know. I think there's something different, like the

114
00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:46.240
way they make them.

115
00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:49.759
I don't know, Okay, but I make waffles sometimes at home,

116
00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:53.759
and I like my recipe a lot. Yeah, so I

117
00:04:53.759 --> 00:04:57.240
would prefer that because they're really crispy, and I like

118
00:04:57.319 --> 00:04:58.560
things to be really crispy.

119
00:04:58.800 --> 00:05:01.160
Yeah, these didn't come out as I liked either.

120
00:05:01.399 --> 00:05:05.399
Yeah, and I My favorite recipe comes from Sarah from

121
00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:08.319
Our Best Bites, her light and crispy waffles. She uses

122
00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:10.120
kind of a lot of corn starch in them that

123
00:05:10.199 --> 00:05:13.399
makes them crispop, and her buttermilk syrup is one of

124
00:05:13.399 --> 00:05:16.360
my favorite recipes. And we did have some of Yeah,

125
00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:18.240
we did have some of that, so yeah, that is

126
00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:20.639
really good. Yeah, but it was a good effort. It

127
00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:24.160
was a good waffle. But it's just my particular I

128
00:05:24.199 --> 00:05:24.920
never know how you.

129
00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:26.399
Don't like to make an excuses.

130
00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:28.399
It's okay if it just always feel bad when you

131
00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:30.000
went through the effort, and I always want to be

132
00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:30.480
like ten.

133
00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:30.800
Out of ten.

134
00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:32.959
It was the best waffle I ever had. It's okay,

135
00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:34.560
but I would I would give it a six out

136
00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:35.480
of ten. What would you rate it?

137
00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:37.839
I'd give it like a seven out of ten. I

138
00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:39.759
just like waffles, and that was a you know, an

139
00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:40.879
average waffle for me.

140
00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:42.120
Okay, good to know.

141
00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:45.079
Today we are going to tell the story of Melissa

142
00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:49.759
and Christopher Wolfenbarger. This was a recommendation from Carrie. Thank

143
00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:50.959
you Carrie for the recommendation.

144
00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:51.920
Carrie with a K.

145
00:05:52.439 --> 00:05:54.639
I do have to give a content warning. There's some

146
00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:59.680
disturbing content in today's episode. It includes discussion of domestic violence,

147
00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:03.600
discovery of dismembered human remains, and the death of a

148
00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:08.240
newborn infant, So please listen with care. Melissa don Patten

149
00:06:08.439 --> 00:06:11.079
spent most of her life trying to find some version

150
00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:17.040
of safety from the outside Melissa could seem unremarkable, quiet, shy, gentle.

151
00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:20.120
She loved animals, tried to stay out of trouble, and

152
00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:23.519
didn't draw too much attention to herself. But beneath that

153
00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:28.040
surface was a childhood shaped by neglect, trauma, and secrets

154
00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:31.279
that no child should ever have to carry. As a teenager,

155
00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:34.680
Melissa did what many people in painful situations do. She

156
00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:37.680
looked for a way out. She married young and became

157
00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:41.399
a mother almost immediately, hoping that starting her own family

158
00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:45.319
would bring the stability and care that she had always lacked. Instead,

159
00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:49.639
her life grew more complicated. There were financial struggles, legal trouble,

160
00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:53.680
and a marriage that became increasingly volatile and frightening. By

161
00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:57.160
her early twenties, Melissa was working long hours, leaning on

162
00:06:57.240 --> 00:07:01.399
coworkers for support, and quietly making play to leave. She

163
00:07:01.519 --> 00:07:04.000
talked about a future that didn't include the man that

164
00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:07.439
she was married to, and then, in late nineteen ninety eight,

165
00:07:07.600 --> 00:07:12.040
Melissa disappeared. What followed was not a clear investigation or

166
00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:15.759
a swift search for answers. It was years of silence

167
00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:19.240
and missed opportunities. For a long time, the only people

168
00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:22.079
asking where Melissa was were the ones who loved her.

169
00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:26.240
This is Melissa's story and the long, uncertain effort to

170
00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:28.040
understand what happened to her.

171
00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:31.560
Well, so far, Melissa's story sounds very familiar. So many

172
00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:34.439
of the stories we tell are about young people who

173
00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:38.079
want to leave their dysfunctional families behind, and they hope

174
00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:41.439
that they're going to rebuild a better, stronger, happier family.

175
00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:44.480
Right A lot so we faced with their own traumas.

176
00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:49.040
Absolutely, it's an all too common theme. Melissa Dawn Patten

177
00:07:49.240 --> 00:07:52.399
was born in September nineteen seventy seven to Carl and

178
00:07:52.439 --> 00:07:55.360
Norma Patten. She was the second child in the family.

179
00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:58.800
Her older sister, Tina, was seven years her senior. The

180
00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:02.600
Patent girls grew up in a series of homes outside Atlanta, Georgia.

181
00:08:02.920 --> 00:08:05.959
From an early age, the sisters were very different. Tina

182
00:08:06.040 --> 00:08:09.839
was described as more like her father, strong willed, stubborn,

183
00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:14.160
and rebellious. Melissa, by contrast, was her polar opposite. She

184
00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:17.959
was quiet, shy, and deeply trusting. She was often described

185
00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:20.639
as a mama's girl and had a particular love for

186
00:08:20.720 --> 00:08:24.600
animals of all kinds, dogs, cats, rabbits. It didn't matter

187
00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:28.800
at school, Melissa did well academically, she earned good grades

188
00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:34.200
and participated in extracurricular activities, including dance lessons and baton twirling.

189
00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:37.720
Teachers and neighbors saw her as a well behaved child

190
00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:40.799
with a bright future out of her. Years later, Norma

191
00:08:40.840 --> 00:08:45.000
Patten would describe Melissa's childhood as largely normal and functional.

192
00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:47.720
She said Carl had a good relationship with both of

193
00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:51.720
his daughters, recalling moments when he took Melissa fishing. One

194
00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:55.200
story she shared involved Carl catching a turtle, which startled

195
00:08:55.240 --> 00:08:58.200
Melissa so badly it nearly scared her out of the boat.

196
00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:01.240
In Norma's telling, these these were the kinds of memories

197
00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:04.200
that defined their family life. But while there may have

198
00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:08.159
been moments of normalcy, the reality of Melissa's childhood appear

199
00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:11.879
as far darker. According to a childhood friend, Melissa and

200
00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:15.360
Tina were frequently locked inside their bedrooms, with the locks

201
00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:17.840
on the doors reversed so they could only be opened

202
00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:21.720
from the outside. That same friend described the Patent home

203
00:09:21.799 --> 00:09:25.240
as foul and dirty, to the point that Melissa's hair

204
00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:29.080
and clothes often carried the smell of the house. At school,

205
00:09:29.320 --> 00:09:33.120
other children noticed Melissa was bullied and teased because of

206
00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:36.120
her appearance and the odors that clung to her clothing.

207
00:09:36.799 --> 00:09:39.120
As she got older, she would tell friends that her

208
00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:42.639
parents were bad people. When she later became a mother herself,

209
00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:45.840
she was adamant about keeping her own children as far

210
00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:49.679
away from her parents as possible. Around the age of thirteen,

211
00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:53.759
Melissa experienced an event that would traumatize her for life.

212
00:09:53.960 --> 00:09:56.720
While going through a clothes hamper in the home, she

213
00:09:56.840 --> 00:09:59.039
discovered the body of a newborn baby.

214
00:09:59.200 --> 00:09:59.840
Oh my god.

215
00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:03.399
The child had been secretly delivered by her sister, Tina,

216
00:10:03.559 --> 00:10:06.120
who would have been around twenty years old at the time,

217
00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:10.000
and hidden in the hamper. Melissa reported the discovery to

218
00:10:10.120 --> 00:10:14.000
officials at her school, which led to Tina's arrest and prosecution.

219
00:10:14.679 --> 00:10:18.480
Details surrounding the case are scarce. It remains unclear whether

220
00:10:18.519 --> 00:10:21.200
the baby had been alive at birth, and I was

221
00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:25.919
unable to determine whether Tina ultimately faced any legal consequences.

222
00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:27.440
That is heartbreaking.

223
00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:29.679
Is it really a horrific story?

224
00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:32.360
And for Melissa to find I know.

225
00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:35.240
When she was only what thirteen years old, that's just

226
00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:40.080
really traumatizing. What is clear is the impact this discovery

227
00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:43.679
had on Melissa. The trauma compounded what was already an

228
00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:48.159
unstable and neglectful environment. After this incident, she began running

229
00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:51.679
away from home regularly, desperate to escape the chaos and

230
00:10:51.799 --> 00:10:55.240
dysfunction that defined her family life. Just a couple of

231
00:10:55.279 --> 00:10:57.960
years later, when Melissa was a freshman in high school,

232
00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:01.480
she met Christopher Wolfenbarger, a meeting that would give her

233
00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:03.879
yet another reason to run away from home.

234
00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:07.759
Christopher Wolfenbarger was born into a family with deep roots

235
00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:11.000
in the Atlanta area. On his mother's side, his grandparents

236
00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:14.720
owned at least three duplexes on Brookline Street, just off

237
00:11:14.759 --> 00:11:19.000
Avon Avenue. Several members of Christopher's extended family lived in

238
00:11:19.039 --> 00:11:21.799
those properties, and he spent much of his childhood and

239
00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:25.840
teenage years in that neighborhood. He was often outside hanging out,

240
00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:29.039
playing sports, and roaming the streets with other kids from

241
00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:33.600
the area. Christopher's parents were Kathy and Allen Wolfenbarger. He

242
00:11:33.639 --> 00:11:37.399
had an older sister named Kimberly, more commonly known as Kitty.

243
00:11:37.879 --> 00:11:40.960
Christopher was close in age to Melissa Patten, likely just

244
00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:44.200
a few months older. Christopher and Melissa met when they

245
00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:48.639
were about sixteen. From the very beginning their relationship was controversial.

246
00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:54.759
Melissa's mother, Norma Patten later said she despised Christopher almost immediately.

247
00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:58.000
She claimed from their first meeting she saw what she

248
00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:00.120
described as a meanness in his lifn.

249
00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:02.440
Not sure if it's quite fair to judge someone just

250
00:12:02.519 --> 00:12:04.879
on what you see a look in their eyes. But

251
00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:06.720
she really did not like Christopher.

252
00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:09.559
But we don't like Norma though. She's not a very

253
00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:11.080
nice person, right.

254
00:12:11.320 --> 00:12:13.759
Norma is not a good person, And to be honest,

255
00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:15.879
there are not a lot of good people in this story.

256
00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:19.559
Oh okay, Well, what happens in this situation if Melissa

257
00:12:19.639 --> 00:12:22.799
is finding someone to and I know that Christopher is

258
00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:25.480
probably right. He's probably not a good person either, because

259
00:12:25.480 --> 00:12:28.080
you've already said that. But of course Norma's not going

260
00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:30.720
to like her if he makes Melissa happy or it

261
00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:32.440
gives her a reason to leave the house.

262
00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:33.240
Yeah, exactly.

263
00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:36.559
Norma believe Christopher was a bad influence on Melissa and

264
00:12:36.600 --> 00:12:39.440
accused him of encouraging her to run away from home

265
00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:43.039
multiple times. But given what we know about Melissa's upbringing,

266
00:12:43.159 --> 00:12:47.120
it's equally possible that Christopher represented an escape, a way

267
00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:51.080
out of a household mark by neglect, instability, and trauma.

268
00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:55.639
Melissa may not have needed much convincing In December nineteen

269
00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:59.600
ninety four, shortly after Melissa turned seventeen, she and Christopher

270
00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:03.480
ran away together. They stole Carl Patten's car and fled

271
00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:07.120
to Oklahoma. According to accounts later shared by Norma, the

272
00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:09.879
pair ended up in a high speed chase, with police

273
00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:12.840
reportedly driving up to one hundred and twenty miles per

274
00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:15.759
hour on the wrong side of the interstate with their

275
00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:18.799
lights off. They managed to evade police for a time

276
00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:22.480
before eventually running off the road and crashing into a bowl.

277
00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:25.720
That's that's the way the story goes. I think in

278
00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:28.279
Oklahoma there's probably a lot of bulls like standing on

279
00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:28.919
the side.

280
00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:31.360
Of the dinners. I mean, there wasn't Illinois.

281
00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:33.759
Too, But I never never crashed into one.

282
00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:36.879
I never crashed into one. When the police finally caught up, well,

283
00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:41.480
was the bull? Okay, let's hope so okay? Well, when

284
00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:43.639
the police finally caught up with them, Norma claimed that

285
00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:47.000
Christopher laughed at the officer who arrested them. That moment,

286
00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:51.679
she said, perfectly captured his attitude, reckless, arrogant, and seemingly

287
00:13:51.799 --> 00:13:56.679
unafraid of consequences. Melissa's father, Carl Patten, was widely known

288
00:13:56.720 --> 00:13:59.840
as a man with a violent temper. People were afraid

289
00:13:59.879 --> 00:14:02.720
of him, and for good reason, as we'll get into later.

290
00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:06.279
Against that backdrop, the fact that Christophers told Carl his

291
00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:09.759
car on at least two occasions speak to just how

292
00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:13.440
brazen he was. Yet, for reasons that are still difficult

293
00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:17.879
to understand, Carl appeared to tolerate Christopher. At one point,

294
00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:21.559
he even employed him in his roofing business. Not long

295
00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:25.919
after the Oklahoma incident, Melissa discovered she was pregnant. According

296
00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:28.720
to Norma, Melissa had been telling Christopher she was on

297
00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:31.840
birth control, but in reality, she had stopped taking it

298
00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:36.399
because she wanted to get pregnant. In February nineteen ninety five,

299
00:14:36.519 --> 00:14:39.559
Melissa and Christopher got married. Melissa moved out of her

300
00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:43.519
parents home and into a duplex with Christopher in East Point, Georgia.

301
00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:46.240
Both of them were just seventeen years old.

302
00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:48.759
I'll post pictures of them. I found a picture from

303
00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:52.279
shortly after they had their first baby, and they looked

304
00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:53.600
like little kids.

305
00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:54.519
Yeah, they really do.

306
00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:57.840
In August nineteen ninety five, Melissa gave birth to a

307
00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:02.639
baby girl. They named Christina Marie Wolfenbarger, which is kind

308
00:15:02.639 --> 00:15:04.639
of my name, so that's kind of weird for the

309
00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:08.799
Just a few months later, Melissa became pregnant again. Less

310
00:15:08.799 --> 00:15:12.080
than eleven months after Christina's birth, she delivered a son.

311
00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:15.840
They named him Joseph alan Xander Wolfenbarger.

312
00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:18.399
Two kids eleven months apart, came.

313
00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:20.720
Out a lot of work, that is, and they're like,

314
00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:24.360
you know, nineteen at eighteen. At this point, as you

315
00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:28.039
might expect, not all was rosy and Melissa and Christopher's marriage.

316
00:15:28.120 --> 00:15:30.480
By the time they were eighteen years old, they already

317
00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:34.039
had two young children. The pressure on the relationship was immense.

318
00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:37.159
From the start. The couple was also dealing with ongoing

319
00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:40.919
legal trouble. Both Melissa and Christopher were frequently in trouble

320
00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:43.879
with the law for a variety of incidents. Christopher would

321
00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:47.000
later describe their early years together as something akin to

322
00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:50.759
Bonnie and Clyde. He openly acknowledged that they were small

323
00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:54.000
time criminals, though he insisted they never did anything he

324
00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:58.480
considered truly serious beyond the theft of Carl Patten's car,

325
00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:02.519
which happened at least twice. Both were arrested multiple times

326
00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:07.399
for non felony offenses, including shoplifting and fighting. In late

327
00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:11.360
nineteen ninety six, Melissa herself was arrested for car theft.

328
00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:15.000
The following year, she was placed on probation. I mean,

329
00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:18.639
so these two their kids themselves, They're trying to raise

330
00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:21.600
two kids, and they probably don't have two nickels to

331
00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:24.480
rub together, and they're just desperate, right, Not that that

332
00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:29.039
excuses their crimes. Still, it wasn't out of anything other

333
00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:30.559
than absolute necessity.

334
00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:32.279
I'm guessing, right, I believe you're right.

335
00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:32.639
Yes.

336
00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:36.440
Melissa soon violated the terms of that probation. She failed

337
00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:40.320
to attend require ged classes, did not complete her assigned

338
00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:44.879
community service, and repeatedly failed to report to her probation officer.

339
00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:48.679
As a result, she was sentenced to thirty days in jail.

340
00:16:49.159 --> 00:16:52.840
Around the same period, Melissa made a decision regarding her children.

341
00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:54.080
Wanting to keep them.

342
00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:58.320
Away from her own parents, she voluntarily granted temporary custody

343
00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:02.879
to Christopher's mother, Wolfenbarger. At that same time, there was

344
00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:06.640
a growing and increasingly visible pattern of domestic violence within

345
00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:10.440
her marriage. Family members and neighbors began to notice signs

346
00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:14.400
that Melissa was being abused. Her sister Tina, who worked

347
00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:18.000
alongside her at the local waffle house, recalled seeing Melissa

348
00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:21.200
one day with red handprints around her neck. A neighbor

349
00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:24.480
later described seeing Melissa with a black eye and said

350
00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:27.119
that screaming, shouting, and the sound of breaking glass were

351
00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:31.960
common occurrences coming from the home. The situation escalated in

352
00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:36.559
July nineteen ninety eight. Following a violent altercation, Melissa filed

353
00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:40.400
for a temporary protective order against Christopher and her filing,

354
00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:42.680
she stated that he had knocked her to the ground

355
00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:45.960
and dragged her by the hair along a sidewalk, causing

356
00:17:46.039 --> 00:17:49.880
extensive abrasions across her back. When the case came before

357
00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:54.160
a judge, Christopher requested a private conversation with Melissa. After

358
00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:57.640
speaking with him alone, Melissa returned to court and asked

359
00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:01.200
that the charges be dismissed. However, if the judge declined

360
00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:05.160
to dismiss the charges, despite that, Melissa left the courthouse

361
00:18:05.240 --> 00:18:07.680
with Christopher and returned home with him.

362
00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:10.160
So a couple of things to talk about here. One

363
00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:13.440
is this is just so sad. Melissa goes from, you know,

364
00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:17.880
growing up in this really dysfunctional household that was really

365
00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:20.559
just not a great situation, and she goes into this

366
00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:23.279
relationship which turns out to be really bad as well.

367
00:18:23.720 --> 00:18:26.960
And then the judge. What. I don't know details about

368
00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:30.000
this court hearing other than that Christopher asked to talk

369
00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:32.119
to her alone and the judge allowed it, which to

370
00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:35.200
me seems crazy. Like she is in there seeking a

371
00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:38.519
temporary protective order and you're going to allow her to

372
00:18:39.079 --> 00:18:41.480
Christopher to talk to her alone. Just doesn't make any

373
00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:42.000
sense to me.

374
00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:45.640
Well, you can't really blame the judge because likely they

375
00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:47.440
would have ended up back together anyway.

376
00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:49.559
Yeah, and at least the judge.

377
00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:53.240
Didn't allow her to dismiss the charges right. In the

378
00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:56.799
months leading up to Melissa's disappearance later in nineteen ninety eight,

379
00:18:56.920 --> 00:19:00.440
the marriage had effectively unraveled. She spent lefe less time

380
00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:03.279
at the couple's residence on Brookline Street, and more time

381
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:06.240
in Doraville, where she was working double shifts at the

382
00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:09.759
waffle house. During this period, Melissa began an affair with

383
00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:13.920
a co worker named Thomas Dixon. To avoid Christopher, she

384
00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:17.000
would sometimes stay in hotels with him. According to her

385
00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:21.160
sister Tina, Melissa was no longer wavering. She was actively

386
00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:24.319
making plans to leave Christopher for good. Do you know

387
00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:27.000
if her kids were in a happy, safe environment.

388
00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:29.440
I believe they were well cared for. They were staying

389
00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:33.200
with Christopher's mom at this point, and from everything I've read,

390
00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:35.680
she did a good job with the kids.

391
00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:37.799
It was a more stable environment than they would have

392
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:38.200
had with.

393
00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:41.720
Their Absolutely a more stable environment. We'll be back after

394
00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:52.000
a break. The exact date of Melissa's disappearance has never

395
00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:55.559
been firmly established. According to her mother, Norma, the last

396
00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:58.759
time she saw Melissa in person was on November ninth,

397
00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:01.920
nineteen ninety eight. That was the day that Melissa was

398
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:05.480
released from the Decalb County Jail after serving thirty days

399
00:20:05.480 --> 00:20:09.119
for violating her probation. Norma later said that Melissa told

400
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:12.039
the judge that day that she was pregnant. The last

401
00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:16.440
confirmed conversation between Melissa and her parents occurred on Thanksgiving Day,

402
00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:20.200
November twenty sixth, nineteen ninety eight. During that phone call,

403
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:22.680
Melissa told her mother that she had been searching for

404
00:20:22.759 --> 00:20:27.119
a photograph of herself with her grandfather, Carl's father. Norma

405
00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:29.680
told her that she had found one taken when Melissa

406
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:32.640
was about five or six years old. She had enlarged

407
00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:35.039
it to an eight x ten and wrapped it, intending

408
00:20:35.079 --> 00:20:37.599
to give it to Melissa as a Christmas gift, she

409
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:40.759
never got the chance. That Thanksgiving phone call was the

410
00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:44.599
last time Norma ever spoke to her daughter. In early December,

411
00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:48.720
Christipher appeared unexpectedly at the waffle house where Melissa was working.

412
00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:51.759
At the time, Melissa had been staying with her coworker

413
00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:55.599
and lover, Thomas Dixon. Christopher stormed into the restaurant to

414
00:20:55.680 --> 00:20:59.480
confront them both. Thomas took Christopher outside to talk while

415
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:03.720
Melissa remained inside, breaking down in tears. After a period

416
00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:07.559
of time, Melissa went outside, she left the restaurant with Christopher.

417
00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:10.920
She never returned to work after that day, and Thomas

418
00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:14.240
Dixon never saw or heard from her again. In the

419
00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:17.960
months and years that followed, Christopher would give conflicting accounts

420
00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:21.079
of the last time he saw his wife. In one version,

421
00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:23.279
he claimed that Melissa woke up in the middle of

422
00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:26.079
the night sometime in December and told him that she

423
00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:29.319
was leaving to start a new life in California. In

424
00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:32.119
another account, he said that he personally drove her to

425
00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:35.160
a Marta transit station and dropped her off so that

426
00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:37.000
she could travel to California.

427
00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:38.680
I don't know if you can see me over here

428
00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:41.279
rolling my eyes, but I could feel it with so

429
00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:43.480
many men use this, So I dropped her off at

430
00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:46.119
the train station, or she left to start a new life.

431
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:48.359
It's just such bs.

432
00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:50.000
Well in the fact that he used two totally different

433
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:52.039
accounts too. She woke up in the middle of the

434
00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:53.880
night and left and then I don't know how far

435
00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:57.200
apart these accounts were. But yeah, it's inconsistent too, So

436
00:21:57.279 --> 00:21:59.200
it just doesn't It doesn't make any sense.

437
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:02.079
And she wasn't even staying with him anymore though, was she?

438
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:05.119
Well, she had left with him from the waffle house

439
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:07.359
that day when he confronted her in the waffle house.

440
00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:09.240
She went home with him that day, so I think

441
00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:12.000
she was staying with him. I don't know the timeline exactly.

442
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:13.400
Did she really go home with him?

443
00:22:13.480 --> 00:22:15.519
We don't really have the date said the timeline, so

444
00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:16.440
it's hard to say.

445
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:20.680
And Thomas did he care that Christopher came and got her?

446
00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:23.200
Was was he serious about Melissa?

447
00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:25.119
You know, I don't know the answer to that. It's

448
00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:28.759
a great question. According to Christopher, the idea of going

449
00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:31.839
to California wasn't something that was new. He said that

450
00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:34.559
he and Melissa had often talked about their shared dream

451
00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:37.960
of moving there together. This time he claimed Melissa had

452
00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:41.880
simply decided to go on her own. Christopher Wolfenbarger did

453
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:44.640
not appear to see a reason to inform anyone that

454
00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:47.440
Melissa was gone. He never reached out to her family,

455
00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:50.400
He never reported her missing to the police. He didn't

456
00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:54.000
check local hospitals or jails. When a neighbor eventually asked

457
00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:57.279
about Melissa after not seeing her for some time, Christopher

458
00:22:57.319 --> 00:23:00.119
told her that Melissa had left him. Beyond that, she

459
00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:00.680
said nothing.

460
00:23:01.160 --> 00:23:04.279
Well, she probably had no money, right, and she was

461
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:07.119
probably still on probationion, right, so she would not have

462
00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:08.799
left the state in all likelihood.

463
00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:11.240
Yeah, and she didn't even own a car at this point.

464
00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:15.799
As Christmas approached and then passed with no word from Melissa,

465
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:19.319
her family began to worry. Despite her strained and often

466
00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:22.920
tumultuous relationship with her parents, it was unlike Melissa to

467
00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:27.039
go through the holidays without calling or stopping by. Even then,

468
00:23:27.200 --> 00:23:31.079
they weren't immediately panicked. Melissa's life had always been chaotic.

469
00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:33.839
She didn't have a car, she didn't have a cell phone,

470
00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:37.119
She was often out of touch for lengthy periods of time.

471
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:40.119
Her family tried to hold on to the possibility that

472
00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:43.799
she was alive and simply staying with friends somewhere. But

473
00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:48.079
February came, and on February twenty fourth, Norma's birthday, there

474
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:51.839
was still no contact. Melissa never forgot her mother's birthday.

475
00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:55.559
By then, her family was convinced that something was wrong.

476
00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:59.279
That is sad that it took them so long to

477
00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:00.680
notice that she was missing.

478
00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:03.319
It is incredibly sad, and it's going to get even

479
00:24:03.559 --> 00:24:07.400
sadder with Christopher not returning their calls, the family decided

480
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:10.759
to drive to the Brookline Street home in February. When

481
00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:13.960
they arrived, the house was abandoned. A neighbor told them

482
00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:16.799
that Christopher and the children had moved out sometime between

483
00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:20.319
Christmas and New Year's That same neighbor also told them

484
00:24:20.359 --> 00:24:24.680
where Christopher had been working, Action Glass company on Avon Avenue.

485
00:24:25.079 --> 00:24:27.480
The family went there next, only to learn from the

486
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:31.319
owner that Christopher had been fired in early February. The reason,

487
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:33.960
they were told was a hit and run accident involving

488
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:37.920
a company truck. Unable to find any answers, Norma finally

489
00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:40.400
went to the police. She was first told by the

490
00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:43.519
Henry County Police Department that the matter fell under the

491
00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:48.319
jurisdiction of the Atlanta Police Department. When she contacted Atlanta Police,

492
00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:51.119
she was told that Melissa was an adult twenty one

493
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:53.920
years old with her own life. If she had chosen

494
00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:56.119
to leave and not stay in contact with her family,

495
00:24:56.400 --> 00:24:59.799
that was her right. No reports of suspicious or criminal

496
00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:02.920
as activity had come from our neighborhood, and as a result,

497
00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:06.039
police said there was nothing they could do. I told

498
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:08.920
you it was going to get sadder. Nobody seemed to

499
00:25:09.079 --> 00:25:11.359
care that this young woman was missing.

500
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:13.519
Do you think that had something to do with her

501
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:14.839
having a criminal record.

502
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:18.079
I don't know. I suppose it's possible, But it also

503
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:21.960
just seems like the police deferred to the husband, and

504
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:24.519
we're just like, well, the husband hasn't reported or missing,

505
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:28.400
so I don't understand it. I don't understand how this

506
00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:31.039
could happen, and no one could really look into this

507
00:25:31.160 --> 00:25:31.480
at all.

508
00:25:31.880 --> 00:25:35.200
Seems like sometimes the police view certain people as disposable.

509
00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:38.000
I think that is a fair comment, and it's really

510
00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:41.960
really sad. In March nineteen ninety nine, the court formally

511
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:45.640
dismissed the pending battery charge against Christopher stemming from the

512
00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:48.960
incident in which he had allegedly dragged Melissa down a

513
00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:52.720
sidewalk by her hair. The reason given was simple, authorities

514
00:25:52.759 --> 00:25:55.519
were unable to locate the victim. Before I go on,

515
00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:57.559
I just want to repeat the content warning that I

516
00:25:57.559 --> 00:25:59.839
gave at the top of the episode. This next section

517
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:03.960
is going to be disturbing. On April twenty ninth, nineteen

518
00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:07.799
ninety nine, a gruesome discovery was made along Avon Avenue.

519
00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:10.920
A man walking home from the bank saw what looked

520
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:14.279
like a human head lying in the road. He used

521
00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:16.160
a stick to move it off the road and then

522
00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:19.079
went and called nine to one one. They confirmed that

523
00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:21.799
the object was exactly what it appeared to be, a

524
00:26:21.880 --> 00:26:25.880
human head. Nearby was a torn black trash bag. The

525
00:26:25.960 --> 00:26:30.000
head was badly decomposed, with very little flesh remaining. The

526
00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:33.000
medical examiner later determined that it had been doused in

527
00:26:33.079 --> 00:26:36.359
bleach and that all the hair had been deliberately cut away.

528
00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:39.640
The cut through the spine showed clear evidence of having

529
00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:42.720
been made with a mechanical saw, such as a circular

530
00:26:42.759 --> 00:26:47.880
saw or a reciprocating saw. That is so devastating it's

531
00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:52.920
incredibly disturbing. Yes, the head belonged to Melissa Patten. However,

532
00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:57.200
due to its advanced state of decomposition, it was misidentified

533
00:26:57.279 --> 00:27:00.160
as the head of a white male because Melissa that

534
00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:04.079
had never been officially reported missing, and because of the misidentification,

535
00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:07.680
no one made the connection. It would be years before

536
00:27:07.720 --> 00:27:09.400
the dots were finally connected.

537
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:11.759
You're kidding me, that's horrible.

538
00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:15.519
Just over a month later, on June ninth, nineteen ninety nine,

539
00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:19.799
another disturbing discovery was made in the same area, approximately

540
00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:23.160
fifty feet from where the head had been found. Investigators

541
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:26.640
located additional human remains in a wooded area behind a

542
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:30.759
junkyard along Avon Avenue. This time it was two arms

543
00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:34.599
and two legs, double wrapped in black trash bags. As

544
00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:38.039
with the head, the bones showed markings consistent with having

545
00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:41.759
been cut using a mechanical saw. Despite further searches of

546
00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:45.799
the surrounding area, the victim's torso was never recovered. The

547
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:49.759
medical examiner was unable to determine a definitive cause of death.

548
00:27:50.119 --> 00:27:52.680
There were no injuries to the skull prior to death,

549
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:56.960
no gunshot wounds, no facial fractures, and no obvious signs

550
00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:00.839
of blunt forest trauma. The dismemberment itself was determined to

551
00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:02.039
have occurred after.

552
00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:06.000
Death, so no one pieced together this missing these missing

553
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:08.200
body parts with Melissa's disappearance.

554
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:10.640
No, not for many years. As we'll see.

555
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:13.920
So Melissa has been missing for six months. Has her

556
00:28:13.960 --> 00:28:15.319
family given up hope?

557
00:28:15.400 --> 00:28:16.680
Are they still looking for her?

558
00:28:16.839 --> 00:28:19.160
They were still looking for her. But in this case,

559
00:28:19.480 --> 00:28:22.720
the police identified this body, the body parts that they

560
00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:25.319
found as belonging to a man, and so I think

561
00:28:25.400 --> 00:28:26.039
it just did not.

562
00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:28.440
So even when the limbs were found, they still thought

563
00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:28.920
it was a man.

564
00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:30.839
Yea, as far as I know, I don't know what

565
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:33.839
condition the limbs were in. They were found in April,

566
00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:36.599
so this would have been four months after Melissa disappeared.

567
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:39.400
My point was, though, in general, if you take my

568
00:28:39.559 --> 00:28:42.440
hand in your hand, you'll know you know ruch's male

569
00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:43.400
and which is female.

570
00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:44.920
But you're right, I didn't think about that.

571
00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:49.640
In June nineteen ninety nine, investigators unveiled a wax reconstruction

572
00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:51.960
of the head based on the skull that they found,

573
00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:55.079
with hopes that it could aid in identifying the victim.

574
00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:58.799
I'll post a picture of this reconstruction. Again, they were

575
00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:00.799
thinking it was a man at the time. But this

576
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:05.599
reconstruction looks absolutely nothing like Melissa. It doesn't do any

577
00:29:05.839 --> 00:29:08.079
It probably was more harmful than helpful.

578
00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:09.200
That's crazy.

579
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:13.880
Remember back to the John List case when they did

580
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:18.440
like a recreation of his Yeah idea remever that and it.

581
00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:20.359
Was crazy because it looked exactly really good.

582
00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:24.400
Yeah. The location of the remains was notable, though once

583
00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:27.799
again the significance would not be recognized until much later.

584
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:32.039
Avon Avenue was also home to Action Glass, the company

585
00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:35.519
where Christopher Wolfenbarger had worked at the time of Melissa's

586
00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:39.480
disappearance until he was fired in early February nineteen ninety nine.

587
00:29:40.039 --> 00:29:43.279
The head was found approximately one hundred and twenty feet

588
00:29:43.319 --> 00:29:46.680
from the entrance to Action Glass. The arms and legs

589
00:29:46.680 --> 00:29:50.480
were discovered about fifty feet beyond that. The disposal site

590
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:53.160
was also less than a mile from the Brookline Street

591
00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:57.279
home where Melissa and Christopher had lived together. So once again,

592
00:29:57.440 --> 00:30:00.559
it's just shocking to me that no one may the connection.

593
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:04.640
Here's a guy whose wife vanished months earlier. Body parts

594
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:08.119
are found right by his workplace, like literally within sight

595
00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:09.039
of his workplace.

596
00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:12.880
But this is in Atlanta, It's not like it's in Dexter, Michigan.

597
00:30:13.400 --> 00:30:15.839
That is true, and I have also read I looked

598
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:18.880
on Google Maps at Avon Avenue where this occurred. It's

599
00:30:18.920 --> 00:30:23.319
a pretty dingy area, and I have read that part

600
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:26.759
or other bodies had been found along that road before,

601
00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:28.039
so it's a really bad area.

602
00:30:28.680 --> 00:30:32.279
The investigation into the dismembered body parts quickly went cold.

603
00:30:32.680 --> 00:30:35.400
At the time, the victim had not been identified beyond

604
00:30:35.400 --> 00:30:38.279
the assumption that the remains belonged to a white male,

605
00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:41.680
and investigators were left with the very few usable leads.

606
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:45.799
Compounding the problem, there had never been a formal investigation

607
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:50.400
into Melissa's disappearance. The only people actively thinking about her

608
00:30:50.519 --> 00:30:54.200
were her family, who were convinced something terrible had happened,

609
00:30:54.519 --> 00:30:57.720
but had no answers and nowhere to turn. It would

610
00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:01.079
take an extraordinary and deeply unset up development for the

611
00:31:01.079 --> 00:31:02.680
connection to finally be made.

612
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:03.880
In two thousand and.

613
00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:08.079
Three, authorities discovered that Melissa's father, Carl Patten, was a

614
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:13.039
serial killer and that her mother, Norma Patten, had helped

615
00:31:13.079 --> 00:31:17.319
him dispose of the victim's bodies. Yes, that is exactly

616
00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:20.240
what happened. You don't shock me that often in the

617
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:22.200
middle of a script, but I don't write.

618
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:24.559
Out the look on the look on your face was

619
00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:25.640
said everything.

620
00:31:25.720 --> 00:31:29.119
Yeah, I mean, what a shocking Listeners are probably yelling

621
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:32.079
at me because they probably already know the name Carl Patten,

622
00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:37.039
but I really don't know. So the stories stretched back decades.

623
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:40.079
In the nineteen seventies, a series of bodies began turning

624
00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:44.119
up in and around the Flint River, roughly fifteen miles

625
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:47.759
south of Atlanta. The first was discovered in nineteen seventy three.

626
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:51.880
The victim was named Richard Jackson. His body was found

627
00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:55.480
dumped beside a road, riddled with gunshot wounds. One of

628
00:31:55.519 --> 00:31:59.599
the early suspects in Jackson's murder was Fred Wyatt, a

629
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:02.680
man with a violent reputation who had spent twenty years

630
00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:07.000
in prison for robbery, cartheft, and other crimes. While police

631
00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:11.240
continued to investigate Jackson's killing, the case took another disturbing

632
00:32:11.319 --> 00:32:16.160
turn in October nineteen seventy seven, Fred Wyatt's girlfriend, Betty

633
00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:21.240
Joe Efflin, disappeared. The following month, in November, Wyatt himself

634
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:25.079
was found dead inside his Volkswagon. His death appeared to

635
00:32:25.160 --> 00:32:27.720
be the result of a collision with a train and

636
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:32.599
was initially ruled accidental. Then in December nineteen seventy seven,

637
00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:36.319
another body was discovered in the Flint River. The victim

638
00:32:36.440 --> 00:32:39.640
was a woman named Lyddy Evans. She had been shot

639
00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:42.400
in both the stomach and the head. Her body had

640
00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:45.559
been placed inside a sleeping bag, bound with rope and

641
00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:49.839
weighed down with concrete blocks. Investigators believed she had been in.

642
00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:51.119
The river for a few days.

643
00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:54.640
As police searched the area, they made an even more

644
00:32:54.680 --> 00:32:59.079
disturbing discovery. Another body was recovered from the river, that

645
00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:01.920
of betty Ja Joe Efflin, the woman who had vanished

646
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:05.519
two months earlier. She had been shot twice in the head,

647
00:33:05.799 --> 00:33:10.799
execution style, bound with rope, and weighed down with concrete blocks.

648
00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:14.319
Based on the condition of her remains, investigators concluded that

649
00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:17.559
she had likely been in the river since October, shortly

650
00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:18.720
after her disappearance.

651
00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:21.599
At this point, we have four victims altogether. Just to

652
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:23.279
I know, there's a lot of names that we've been

653
00:33:23.319 --> 00:33:24.960
throwing at you here, but just to kind of try

654
00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:25.680
to keep it straight.

655
00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:27.759
So four people, and they all seem to be killed

656
00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:29.160
in a somewhat similar manner.

657
00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:31.880
Yeah, and the second person who was killed or found

658
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:35.240
or found was a suspect in the first murder. So

659
00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:38.960
there these people are actually connected to each other somehow.

660
00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:42.279
At that point, investigators concluded they were dealing with a

661
00:33:42.319 --> 00:33:46.400
serial killer. The unknown suspect was labeled as the Flint

662
00:33:46.599 --> 00:33:49.880
River Killer. Lyddy Evans had been living with a man

663
00:33:50.119 --> 00:33:53.880
named Joseph Cleveland, who quickly became a person of interest

664
00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:57.480
in her murder, but Cleveland vanished as well. At first,

665
00:33:57.559 --> 00:34:00.319
police believed he had fled the area. An a April

666
00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:03.680
nineteen seventy eight, his body was found in a different river.

667
00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:06.319
Like the others, he had been shot in the head,

668
00:34:06.519 --> 00:34:10.559
wrapped in chains and weighed down with concrete blocks. Carl

669
00:34:10.599 --> 00:34:13.960
Patten had long been on investigator's radar. He was known

670
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:16.519
to be a close friend of Joseph Cleveland, and the

671
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:20.599
two men had frequently been seen together. During the investigation,

672
00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:24.039
police also found bloodstains in the trunk of Carl's car

673
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:27.880
that matched Lyddy Evans. The victims were all connected in

674
00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:32.199
some way, but despite years of suspicion, investigators never had

675
00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:36.519
enough evidence to make an arrest. That finally changed decades later.

676
00:34:36.840 --> 00:34:39.800
In two thousand and two, the cold case was reopened

677
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:44.480
with the goal of applying modern DNA testing techniques. Those

678
00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:49.119
tests conclusively pointed to Carl Patten, and in February two

679
00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:53.480
thousand and three he was arrested. Wow, that is crazy.

680
00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:54.880
It's quite a turn, isn't it.

681
00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:59.039
Yeah, had Carl had like why was he suspect?

682
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:01.760
Did he have a He was connected with a lot

683
00:35:01.800 --> 00:35:03.920
of these people as well. So, like I said, these people,

684
00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:06.559
I don't have all the details of their relationships, but

685
00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:09.599
he knew like he was friends with Joseph Cleveland, the

686
00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:13.760
last victim, They were very close. He also was somehow connected.

687
00:35:13.880 --> 00:35:16.800
He knew people that knew the other victims, so he

688
00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:19.119
was part of that same group. And so I think

689
00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:21.800
he was considered a suspect early on, but it just

690
00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:24.400
didn't feel like they ever had enough to make an arrest.

691
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:27.079
Realizing that the case had finally caught up with them,

692
00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:30.800
both Karl and Norma Patten confessed and agreed to cooperate

693
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:34.079
with authorities. Norma moved quickly to protect herself.

694
00:35:34.440 --> 00:35:35.400
She struck a deal.

695
00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:39.440
With prosecutors, agreeing to testify against her husband in exchange

696
00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:44.000
for immunity from prosecution and her confession. Norma admitted that

697
00:35:44.119 --> 00:35:47.639
she had actively helped Carl after the murders, mopping up

698
00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:51.079
blood bleaching floors and assisting in wrapping up the bodies.

699
00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:52.840
Before Karl disposed of them.

700
00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:54.519
Wow, what a couple.

701
00:35:55.199 --> 00:35:58.079
Carl also confessed to the killings, though he rejected the

702
00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:01.480
label serial killer. Insisted that the murders had all been

703
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:04.880
committed for specific reasons, arguing that he was not like

704
00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:08.599
a typical serial killer who killed for pleasure or targeted

705
00:36:08.679 --> 00:36:12.239
a certain type of victim. According to Carl, the first murder,

706
00:36:12.360 --> 00:36:15.239
Richard Jackson, had been a paid hit. He claimed that

707
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:19.079
Jackson's first wife hired both him and Joseph Cleveland to

708
00:36:19.159 --> 00:36:22.800
carry it out. Several years later, Carl said the same

709
00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:26.480
woman paid Patten and Cleveland again, this time to kill

710
00:36:26.519 --> 00:36:31.280
Fred Wyatt and Wyatt's girlfriend, Betty Joe Efflin. At that point,

711
00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:34.400
the woman was married to Wyatt and was furious when

712
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:35.599
he left her for Efland.

713
00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:38.360
I believe this woman had passed away by the time

714
00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:41.119
that they finally made all these connections, so she did

715
00:36:41.119 --> 00:36:43.079
not serve any time for this.

716
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:43.519
So.

717
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:46.519
Karl went on to explain that he later became concerned

718
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:50.440
that his accomplice, Joseph Cleveland, was talking too openly about

719
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:54.960
their crimes. Fearing exposure, Carl decided to kill Cleveland. He

720
00:36:55.079 --> 00:37:00.360
also murdered Cleveland's girlfriend, Lyddy Evans, to eliminate another potential witness.

721
00:37:00.599 --> 00:37:04.719
The man who arrested Carl was Lieutenant Colonel Bruce Jordan

722
00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:09.199
of the Fayette County Sheriff's Department. Carl reportedly respected Jordan,

723
00:37:09.400 --> 00:37:12.480
leaving him to be a fair man and a skilled investigator,

724
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:16.679
skilled enough, in Carl's view, to finally identify him as

725
00:37:16.719 --> 00:37:20.360
the Flint River Killer. With that in mind, Carl decided

726
00:37:20.360 --> 00:37:23.119
to make a request. He asked Jordan if he would

727
00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:26.760
look into the disappearance of his daughter Melissa. After hearing

728
00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:29.800
what Carl had to say, Jordan agreed to take a look.

729
00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:33.360
Sure to his word, Jordan began by reviewing files related

730
00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:37.639
to unidentified human remains found near locations where Melissa had

731
00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:41.519
lived prior to her disappearance. That review quickly led him

732
00:37:41.559 --> 00:37:44.800
to the severed head and limbs discovered along Avon Avenue

733
00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:48.239
in nineteen ninety nine, not far from Action Glass, where

734
00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:52.719
Christopher Wolfenbarger had worked until February of that year. Jordan

735
00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:56.599
obtained Melissa's dental records and arranged for an expert comparison

736
00:37:56.760 --> 00:38:00.519
with a recovered skull in March two thousand three, four

737
00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:03.199
and a half years after she vanished. The remains were

738
00:38:03.199 --> 00:38:07.639
officially identified as Melissa Wolfenbarger's.

739
00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:10.199
Four and a half years before the family had closure.

740
00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:12.760
Well, at any point did you think, when you found

741
00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:16.360
out that Carl was a serial killer, that he and

742
00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:18.719
Norma could have had something to do with her disappearance?

743
00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:22.440
And I think authorities thought that at first as well.

744
00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:25.360
We'll talk about that after the break, but yeah, that

745
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:26.119
was not the case.

746
00:38:26.519 --> 00:38:28.000
We'll be back after a break.

747
00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:39.519
Once Melissa's remains were finally identified, investigators were forced to

748
00:38:39.559 --> 00:38:43.639
confront an uncomfortable question. Given that Carl Patten had confessed

749
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:46.239
to killing at least five people, could he have also

750
00:38:46.360 --> 00:38:51.239
been responsible for his daughter's death. Initially, that possibility was considered,

751
00:38:51.639 --> 00:38:55.480
but Carl's reaction to the identification of Melissa's remains gave

752
00:38:55.559 --> 00:39:00.559
detectives pause. He was visibly devastated by the news. More importantly,

753
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:04.079
both Karl and Norma were the only ones pressing investigators

754
00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:07.559
to pursue Melissa's disappearance and murder. They were not trying

755
00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:11.639
to deflect attention. They were actively pushing for answers. Attention

756
00:39:11.800 --> 00:39:16.079
shifted to Christopher Wolfenbarger. Melissa's remains have been found in

757
00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:20.000
close proximity to his workplace. Investigators were well aware of

758
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:23.800
the volatility of the marriage, the documented domestic violence, and

759
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:27.840
the abuse that Melissa had suffered at Christopher's hands. Detectives

760
00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:32.079
revisited old police reports and uncovered the temporary protective order

761
00:39:32.119 --> 00:39:35.679
that Melissa had filed against Christopher in mid nineteen ninety eight.

762
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:39.039
They also conducted a search of the couple's former residence

763
00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:43.079
on Brookline Street. Using luminol. The investigators looked for traces

764
00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:46.639
of blood. They collected paint and fiber samples in hopes

765
00:39:46.679 --> 00:39:49.719
of finding forensic evidence that might link the home to

766
00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:53.719
Melissa's death. None was found. There was no blood evidence

767
00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:57.199
and nothing recovered from the house that directly tied Melissa's

768
00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:00.400
murder to the residence. I know forensic evidence lasts a

769
00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:02.840
long time, but this is four and a half five

770
00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:06.280
years after her disappearance, and I wonder how likely it

771
00:40:06.280 --> 00:40:08.440
would have been for them to find something in that house,

772
00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:10.280
even if she had been killed there.

773
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:12.599
I think it happens all the time, though you'd be surprised,

774
00:40:12.679 --> 00:40:16.360
especially people who aren't really great at cleaning or live

775
00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:17.400
a chaotic life.

776
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:20.079
Well, we don't know who lived there from because Christopher

777
00:40:20.119 --> 00:40:22.679
moved out just two weeks after her disappearance, so I

778
00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:25.000
don't know who lived there, but yeah, I know that

779
00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:28.280
kind of thing can last a long long time. Investigators

780
00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:31.559
then turned their attention back to Action Glass. When they

781
00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:34.440
spoke with the owner, they learned something that caught their interest.

782
00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:38.519
Christopher had been suspected of stealing a reciprocating saw from

783
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:42.519
the company. Although he strongly denied taking it, the suspicion

784
00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:45.559
had played a role in his termination in early nineteen

785
00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:49.840
ninety nine. Given the nature of Melissa's dismemberment, the missing

786
00:40:49.880 --> 00:40:53.639
saw stood out. But once again, the evidence against Christopher

787
00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:58.199
was entirely circumstantial. There were no witnesses, no forensic links,

788
00:40:58.239 --> 00:41:02.000
and no confession. With no new leads and no solid proof,

789
00:41:02.199 --> 00:41:06.280
the case stalled once more and went cold. Meanwhile, Carl

790
00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:10.159
Patten's own criminal cases moved forward. He pleaded guilty to

791
00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:14.159
five murders in three separate trials held across the jurisdictions

792
00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:17.639
where the victim's bodies had been recovered. He was ultimately

793
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:22.239
sentenced to five consecutive life terms in prison. At his sentencing,

794
00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:25.599
he apologized, saying if I could undo it, I would.

795
00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:28.760
It's been a long time coming and I'm sorry. That

796
00:41:28.840 --> 00:41:32.039
statement drew jeers from the family members of his victims.

797
00:41:32.519 --> 00:41:35.800
Arnold Evans, the son of Lyddy Evans, said if he

798
00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:38.039
was sorry, he would have turned himself in a long

799
00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:40.440
time ago. He needs to rot in hell for what

800
00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:44.519
he did to my mother. As Melissa and Christopher's daughter, Christina,

801
00:41:44.599 --> 00:41:48.119
got older, she became increasingly frustrated by how little she

802
00:41:48.199 --> 00:41:51.039
knew about her mother and by how difficult it was

803
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:55.320
to get answers. Although she was primarily raised by Christopher's parents,

804
00:41:55.599 --> 00:41:58.280
Christina did live with her father for a brief period

805
00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:01.960
during her late teens. During that time, she tried repeatedly

806
00:42:02.039 --> 00:42:04.840
to ask him about Melissa and what had happened to her.

807
00:42:05.079 --> 00:42:08.880
She got nowhere. Christina later said, I'd ask my dad

808
00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:11.039
and he would tell me a different story every time,

809
00:42:11.360 --> 00:42:13.920
or he would just get mad. None of it made sense.

810
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:16.960
That's when I decided to start looking into it myself.

811
00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:20.960
While scrolling through Facebook one day, Christina saw her mother's

812
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:24.480
name appear as a people you may know suggestion. The

813
00:42:24.519 --> 00:42:27.800
profile turned out to be one created by Melissa's family

814
00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:31.960
to share information about her disappearance and case. Eighteen years

815
00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:34.760
old at the time, Christina decided to reach out to

816
00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:38.639
Norma and Tina. From their first meeting, Christina felt an

817
00:42:38.679 --> 00:42:42.320
immediate connection to her grandmother and aunt. She said, I

818
00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:45.320
had so many questions on my own theories about what happened.

819
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:48.519
It turned out theirs were the same as mine. From

820
00:42:48.519 --> 00:42:52.719
that point forward, Christina, Norma, and Tina grew close together.

821
00:42:52.920 --> 00:42:56.559
They committed themselves to finding answers and continuing the fight

822
00:42:56.639 --> 00:42:58.199
for justice for Melissa.

823
00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:00.639
So for the first eighteen years of her life she

824
00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:02.199
didn't have a relationship with them.

825
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:03.159
It sounds like.

826
00:43:03.400 --> 00:43:06.280
No, not at all. And you can't really blame Christopher's

827
00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:09.960
mother either. Here's Norma as a convicted you convicted accessory

828
00:43:09.960 --> 00:43:13.400
to murder, so she would obviously farwing.

829
00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:17.079
Absolutely, But several more years would pass before Melissa's murder

830
00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:22.039
investigation was meaningfully revived, still searching for answers. In twenty seventeen,

831
00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:25.840
Norma Patton attended a wine and Crime event where she

832
00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:31.000
approached the event's keynote speaker, Cheryl McCullum. McCullum was the

833
00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:35.039
director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, which she

834
00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:38.559
had founded after a twenty year career in law enforcement.

835
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:42.599
The institute operates as a collaborative effort with colleges and

836
00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:47.440
universities across the country, bringing together thousands of students, researchers,

837
00:43:47.480 --> 00:43:51.400
and experts who volunteer their time to help solve cold cases.

838
00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:55.000
Norma asked McCollum for help, but she was upfront from

839
00:43:55.039 --> 00:43:58.039
the start. She told McCullum about the murders her husband

840
00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:00.639
was serving time for, as well as her own role

841
00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:04.000
in helping cover them up. McCollum agreed to take the

842
00:44:04.039 --> 00:44:06.800
case anyway. She later explained that the sins of the

843
00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:10.920
parents had nothing to do with Melissa. Melissa deserved justice

844
00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:15.079
just like any other victim. Cheryl McCollum began a deep

845
00:44:15.199 --> 00:44:18.039
dive into the case, working through stacks of binders that

846
00:44:18.079 --> 00:44:21.519
Norma had kept over the years, filled with reports, notes,

847
00:44:21.559 --> 00:44:26.039
and correspondents related to Melissa's disappearance and death. In twenty

848
00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:30.280
twenty one, Fulton County District Attorney Fannie Willis launched a

849
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:33.559
cold case division and appointed McCullum to serve on the

850
00:44:33.639 --> 00:44:37.840
task force. McCollum immediately pushed for a renewed review of

851
00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:42.039
Melissa's case. She walked officials through the crime scene, organized

852
00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:46.039
additional searches for evidence, and brought in high profile experts,

853
00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:51.119
including Nancy Grace and forensic pathologist Joseph Scott Morgan to

854
00:44:51.239 --> 00:44:55.559
review the case file. In twenty twenty two, McCollum dedicated

855
00:44:55.840 --> 00:45:00.239
nine episodes of her podcast Zoned seven to Melissa's store worry.

856
00:45:00.559 --> 00:45:03.840
Both Norma and Tina appeared on the podcast, and Carl

857
00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:07.519
Patten wrote letters to McCollum from prison, and those letters,

858
00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:11.000
Carl reflected on how losing his own daughter to violent

859
00:45:11.079 --> 00:45:14.400
crime had forced him to finally understand the depth of

860
00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:16.679
the pain he had inflicted on others.

861
00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:18.519
He also expressed.

862
00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:21.199
Guilt, writing that he felt that he had failed Melissa

863
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:25.280
by not being able to protect her. The podcast significantly

864
00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:29.119
raised the profile of the case. One listener contacted McCollum

865
00:45:29.239 --> 00:45:32.239
with a tip about troubling behavior they had witnessed between

866
00:45:32.320 --> 00:45:37.159
Christopher and Melissa. McCullum passed the information along to law enforcement,

867
00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:40.960
adding another piece to the growing body of circumstantial evidence.

868
00:45:41.480 --> 00:45:46.159
Investigators also tracked down several people connected to Melissa's final months,

869
00:45:46.239 --> 00:45:49.760
including Thomas Dixon, the coworker that she had been seeing

870
00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:54.199
shortly before her disappearance. Dixon recounted the December nineteen ninety

871
00:45:54.199 --> 00:45:58.159
eight incident at waffle house, describing how Christopher had confronted

872
00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:01.800
Melissa there and how she had been left hysterical afterward.

873
00:46:02.159 --> 00:46:06.800
Authorities also spoke with Melissa and Christopher's children, Christina and Joey,

874
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:09.840
who were now in their mid twenties. They shared deeply

875
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:11.360
unsettling memories.

876
00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:11.760
About their father.

877
00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:16.719
Both described occasions when Christopher made disturbing comments about how

878
00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:20.079
to get away with murder. One such moment occurred when

879
00:46:20.119 --> 00:46:23.480
they were discussing a true crime television show they'd watched together.

880
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:27.920
Christopher criticized the killer's disposal methods, saying it was not

881
00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:30.760
the way they should have done it. He then explained

882
00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:33.719
what he believed would be a better reproach, hiding a

883
00:46:33.760 --> 00:46:37.199
body beneath the foundation of a house under construction so

884
00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:40.639
that concrete would be poured over the next morning, ensuring

885
00:46:40.679 --> 00:46:43.599
the body would never be found. He also told his

886
00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:46.000
daughter that he had a plan a place if authorities

887
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:49.639
ever came looking for him. Oh boy, that's a lot

888
00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:53.360
of stuff stacking up there. The children further described how

889
00:46:53.400 --> 00:46:55.480
their father had effectively erased.

890
00:46:55.039 --> 00:46:56.480
Their mother from their lives.

891
00:46:56.960 --> 00:47:01.039
All of Melissa's belongings were removed from the house, potographs disappeared.

892
00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:04.480
When the children asked questions about her, Christopher would respond

893
00:47:04.559 --> 00:47:08.280
by sitting in silence, refusing to answer. They were largely

894
00:47:08.360 --> 00:47:11.400
raised by Christopher's parents, and for a time even believed

895
00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:15.800
that their grandparents were actually their biological parents. Around this time,

896
00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:19.159
Christopher spoke to Dateline. He said, yeah, I have a

897
00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:22.440
criminal history, but I'm not a murderer. He said, melissa

898
00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:25.280
disappearance at the end of nineteen ninety eight wasn't anything

899
00:47:25.280 --> 00:47:28.280
out of the ordinary. Quote, We're not talking about one

900
00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:30.519
day she was there and the next day she was not.

901
00:47:31.239 --> 00:47:33.679
I just figured she'd come back when she was able to.

902
00:47:34.400 --> 00:47:38.119
As part of the renewed investigation, additional DNA testing was

903
00:47:38.119 --> 00:47:42.039
performed on black trash bags that had contained Melissa's remains.

904
00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:48.039
Five different contributors were identified. Christopher voluntarily provided a DNA

905
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:51.039
sample and was excluded as a match to any of

906
00:47:51.039 --> 00:47:52.280
the five contributors.

907
00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:54.079
What do you think of that.

908
00:47:54.440 --> 00:47:56.760
I mean, these trash bags had been out in the

909
00:47:56.760 --> 00:47:59.039
street and in the woods by the side of the street,

910
00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:00.360
so I'm sure they had a lot a lot of

911
00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:03.679
DNA on them. It's frustrated because if his DNA had

912
00:48:03.719 --> 00:48:05.880
been found, it would have then been a little bit

913
00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:06.800
more of a slam dunk.

914
00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:09.960
Despite the lack of a DNA match, the district attorney

915
00:48:09.960 --> 00:48:12.719
presented the case to a grand jury. The grand jury

916
00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:17.239
voted to indict Christopher on charges of murder and felony murder.

917
00:48:17.639 --> 00:48:20.880
On August sixth, twenty twenty four, authorities went to Christopher's

918
00:48:20.920 --> 00:48:24.159
residence to make the arrest. He was nowhere to be found.

919
00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:27.280
A canine unit was brought in and after a forty

920
00:48:27.320 --> 00:48:31.239
minute search, Christopher was discovered hiding in a makeshift crawl

921
00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:35.119
space behind a wine wrack and a dryer in his garage.

922
00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:38.480
Carl Patten lived long enough to see an arrestmate in

923
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:41.480
his daughter's murder. He did not live to see the

924
00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:45.239
case go to trial. Carl died in prison on December sixteenth,

925
00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:48.840
twenty twenty four, at age seventy five. Norma had stuck

926
00:48:48.880 --> 00:48:52.159
with him during this time in prison, remaining married and

927
00:48:52.480 --> 00:48:56.280
visiting him regularly. If you murder five people, I'm out.

928
00:48:56.320 --> 00:48:58.400
Yeah, I don't. I wouldn't blame you. The State of

929
00:48:58.440 --> 00:49:01.840
Georgia versus Christopher wilf Barger went to trial in August

930
00:49:01.960 --> 00:49:05.719
twenty twenty five. Melissa's sister Tina had high hopes. She

931
00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:08.840
posted on Facebook, Finally we are starting the trial that

932
00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:12.199
we have been waiting twenty six years for. From the outset,

933
00:49:12.280 --> 00:49:15.760
the prosecution acknowledged that their case was built almost entirely

934
00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:19.559
uncircumstantial evidence. Their goal was to show that Christopher had

935
00:49:19.599 --> 00:49:23.000
the motive, the opportunity, and the means to murder Melissa,

936
00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:27.639
even in the absence of direct forensic proof. Prosecutors highlighted

937
00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:32.960
several key pieces of evidence. First was geographic proximity. Melissa's

938
00:49:32.960 --> 00:49:35.800
severed head and dismembered limbs had been found in nineteen

939
00:49:35.880 --> 00:49:39.760
ninety nine along Avon Avenue, directly outside the Action Glass

940
00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:43.360
facility where Christopher was working at the time. Next was

941
00:49:43.400 --> 00:49:46.679
the issue of the missing saw. Christopher had been suspected

942
00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:50.159
by his employer of stealing a reciprocating saw around the

943
00:49:50.199 --> 00:49:54.000
time that Melissa vanished. Given the medical examiner's findings that

944
00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:57.039
a mechanical saw had been used to dismember the body,

945
00:49:57.239 --> 00:50:01.480
the prosecution argued this was significant. They also presented what

946
00:50:01.519 --> 00:50:06.719
they characterized as incriminating statements. Christopher's children testified about comments

947
00:50:06.800 --> 00:50:10.360
their father had made while watching true crime television shows,

948
00:50:10.400 --> 00:50:14.119
including critiquing the methods used to dispose of bodies and

949
00:50:14.280 --> 00:50:16.800
explaining what he believed would be a more effective way

950
00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:20.119
to avoid detection. The state also walked the jury through

951
00:50:20.199 --> 00:50:23.400
the history of domestic violence in the marriage. This included

952
00:50:23.440 --> 00:50:26.960
the July nineteen ninety eight incident in which Christopher allegedly

953
00:50:27.039 --> 00:50:29.800
knocked Melissa down and dragged her by the hair, an

954
00:50:29.800 --> 00:50:33.840
event that led her to seek a temporary protective order. Finally,

955
00:50:33.880 --> 00:50:38.239
prosecutors pointed to Christopher's behavior after Melissa vanished. He never

956
00:50:38.320 --> 00:50:41.519
reported her missing, he didn't alert her family, and when

957
00:50:41.559 --> 00:50:44.480
authorities came to arrest him decades later, they found him

958
00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:48.360
hiding inside his home. Taken together, the state argued these

959
00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:52.599
actions suggested a consciousness of guilt. As for motive, the

960
00:50:52.679 --> 00:50:56.039
prosecution advanced the theory that Melissa may have been pregnant

961
00:50:56.039 --> 00:50:58.559
at the time of her death. As we mentioned, Norma

962
00:50:58.599 --> 00:51:02.039
Patten testified that Melissa told the judge she was pregnant

963
00:51:02.039 --> 00:51:05.360
when she was released from jail in November nineteen ninety eight.

964
00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:09.079
Prosecutors suggested that the prospect of another child could have

965
00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:13.719
triggered violence, either due to financial stress or because Christopher

966
00:51:13.760 --> 00:51:16.960
may have believed that the baby wasn't his. The pregnancy

967
00:51:17.000 --> 00:51:20.719
theory was also used to explain the absence of Melissa's torso.

968
00:51:21.239 --> 00:51:24.880
Prosecutors argued that her torso could have provided definitive proof

969
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:27.800
of pregnancy, and that this may have led Christopher to

970
00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:32.519
take extra steps to conceal or destroy it. Despite these arguments,

971
00:51:32.639 --> 00:51:36.719
the prosecution faced serious challenges. There was no physical evidence

972
00:51:36.800 --> 00:51:40.280
linking Christopher to the remains or disposal sites, no DNA,

973
00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:44.840
no blood, no fibers. In fact, modern DNA testing conducted

974
00:51:44.840 --> 00:51:47.239
on the black trash bags used to dispose of the

975
00:51:47.239 --> 00:51:51.320
body parts excluded Christopher as one of the contributors. The

976
00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:55.519
background of Melissa's family also complicated the state's case. The

977
00:51:55.519 --> 00:51:58.440
fact that her father was a convicted serial killer gave

978
00:51:58.519 --> 00:52:02.840
the defense a ready alternate suspect. Prosecutors were forced to

979
00:52:02.880 --> 00:52:06.440
spend time explaining why Karl had been ruled out. The

980
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:10.800
handling of the original investigation was another major obstacle. Melissa

981
00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:14.480
had never been officially reported missing. Her skull had initially

982
00:52:14.519 --> 00:52:19.119
been misidentified as belonging to a male, delaying identification for years.

983
00:52:19.599 --> 00:52:22.880
During the trial, a former detective testified about evidence he

984
00:52:22.960 --> 00:52:26.360
remembered that was no longer in the case file. Several

985
00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:29.639
police reports appeared to be missing, prompting the defense to

986
00:52:29.679 --> 00:52:33.760
move for a mistrial. That motion was ultimately denied. The

987
00:52:33.840 --> 00:52:37.079
defense focused squarely on what they described as the gaping

988
00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:40.400
holes in the state's case. They acknowledged that Christopher was

989
00:52:40.440 --> 00:52:44.039
guilty of domestic violence, but emphasized that this was a

990
00:52:44.119 --> 00:52:47.320
murder trial. The defense pointed to the lack of forensic

991
00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:51.159
evidence and argued that suspicion alone was not enough to convict.

992
00:52:51.519 --> 00:52:55.480
They highlighted multiple alternative suspects, including Karl and Norma Patten,

993
00:52:55.760 --> 00:52:58.920
as well as a family associate who they claimed harbored

994
00:52:58.960 --> 00:53:01.599
resentment toward the past and family and may have had

995
00:53:01.639 --> 00:53:05.760
a motive for revenge. Defense attorneys also highlighted the results

996
00:53:05.800 --> 00:53:08.679
of the luminal testing conducted of the Brookline Street home

997
00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:12.639
years after Melissa's disappearance. No traces of blood were found,

998
00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:15.519
and none of the paint chips or fiber samples recovered

999
00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:19.599
matched anything from the house. They further challenged the credibility

1000
00:53:19.599 --> 00:53:25.000
of key prosecution witnesses by highlighting their criminal histories. Melissa's sister, Tina,

1001
00:53:25.119 --> 00:53:29.559
had prior convictions related to methamphetamine possession in the twenty twenties.

1002
00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:33.079
Thomas Dixon, who had been romantically involved with the Melissa

1003
00:53:33.119 --> 00:53:36.360
at the time of her disappearance, was a convicted bank robber.

1004
00:53:36.880 --> 00:53:40.440
And then there was Norma Patten herself and admitted accessory

1005
00:53:40.519 --> 00:53:44.519
to multiple murders. Her testimony spanned two days and formed

1006
00:53:44.559 --> 00:53:49.039
a cornerstone of the prosecution's case. She spoke about Melissa's childhood,

1007
00:53:49.199 --> 00:53:52.239
her early impressions of Christopher, and the abuse that she

1008
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:55.519
believed her daughter had suffered. The defense argued that her

1009
00:53:55.519 --> 00:54:00.440
credibility was irreparably compromised. Christopher declined to test fi on

1010
00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:04.000
his own behalf. After seven days of testimony, followed by

1011
00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:07.880
closing arguments, the jury deliberated for just two hours. What

1012
00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:09.440
do you believe their verdict is.

1013
00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:14.760
I'm going to say not guilty. Mostly because of the

1014
00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:18.159
criminal history of her parents. I believe that that is

1015
00:54:18.280 --> 00:54:21.159
a lot of reasonable doubt, but also because you kind

1016
00:54:21.159 --> 00:54:23.320
of have a talent. If the verdict is a little

1017
00:54:23.320 --> 00:54:26.360
bit of a surprise, you warn me not to look ahead,

1018
00:54:26.920 --> 00:54:27.840
so I do have.

1019
00:54:27.760 --> 00:54:30.480
A little bit of a tell. I guess although this verdict,

1020
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:33.280
you're right. The verdict was not guilty on both the

1021
00:54:33.360 --> 00:54:36.960
murder and felony murder charges in this case. I don't

1022
00:54:37.159 --> 00:54:39.440
think it's that much of a surprise, just based on

1023
00:54:39.800 --> 00:54:41.800
the evidence that they had, but we'll talk about that

1024
00:54:41.840 --> 00:54:45.360
in a little bit. Melissa Patten wasn't an angel. She

1025
00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:49.199
made bad choices, She struggled, she got into trouble, she

1026
00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:52.440
stayed in situations that were clearly harming her. But none

1027
00:54:52.480 --> 00:54:55.119
of that changes the most basic fact in this case.

1028
00:54:55.400 --> 00:54:58.239
She didn't deserve what happened to her. Melissa was a

1029
00:54:58.239 --> 00:55:02.159
real person. She was someone's daughter, someone's sister, and a

1030
00:55:02.239 --> 00:55:05.639
mother herself only twenty one when she died. She spent

1031
00:55:05.719 --> 00:55:08.320
much of her life trying to get away from instability

1032
00:55:08.679 --> 00:55:12.440
and build something safer for herself and her children. Sadly,

1033
00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:15.480
she never really got that chance. A jury heard the

1034
00:55:15.480 --> 00:55:18.119
evidence in the case and reached the verdict they believed

1035
00:55:18.280 --> 00:55:21.679
was required by law. They had reasonable doubts, so they

1036
00:55:21.719 --> 00:55:25.719
found Christopher Wolfenbarger not guilty. That may be the right verdict,

1037
00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:29.679
but it certainly hasn't delivered justice for Melissa's murder. What's

1038
00:55:29.719 --> 00:55:33.000
impossible to ignore is how long Melissa went missing without

1039
00:55:33.039 --> 00:55:37.599
anyone really looking, how easily her disappearance was dismissed, how

1040
00:55:37.639 --> 00:55:41.320
many chances there were to intervene to investigate, to connect

1041
00:55:41.360 --> 00:55:44.199
the dots, and how many of those chances were missed.

1042
00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:46.639
At the end of the day, this is a story

1043
00:55:46.639 --> 00:55:49.440
about a young woman whose life ended violently and a

1044
00:55:49.519 --> 00:55:52.400
case where no one has been held accountable for her murder.

1045
00:55:52.840 --> 00:55:55.599
Melissa Patten mattered and she should never have been so

1046
00:55:55.679 --> 00:55:58.320
easy to overlook. Rest in peace, Melissa.

1047
00:55:58.840 --> 00:56:00.760
Well, before you ask me about bunch of questions, I

1048
00:56:00.800 --> 00:56:04.239
have a question for you. Do you think that Carl's

1049
00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:07.760
being a serial killer had something to do with her

1050
00:56:07.840 --> 00:56:12.199
family not looking for her more aggressively or not contacting

1051
00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:15.880
law enforcement because both he and Norma knew what he'd done,

1052
00:56:16.280 --> 00:56:18.719
and he was probably hesitant to.

1053
00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:21.679
Write, to go to the authorities and talk to them.

1054
00:56:21.719 --> 00:56:24.480
It's an interesting theory. I did not get that sense.

1055
00:56:24.519 --> 00:56:27.159
I got the sense that at least Norma was very

1056
00:56:27.239 --> 00:56:29.800
actively trying to get people to pay attention to this.

1057
00:56:29.880 --> 00:56:32.039
I mean, she did go to the police, both in

1058
00:56:32.119 --> 00:56:35.280
Henry County and in Atlanta a couple of months after

1059
00:56:35.480 --> 00:56:38.679
Melissa disappeared, and she, as far as I could tell,

1060
00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:41.440
she's been active or she was active ever since Melissa's

1061
00:56:41.480 --> 00:56:44.360
disappearance and trying to bring attention to the case.

1062
00:56:44.679 --> 00:56:47.199
We know, in so many of these cases, the parents

1063
00:56:47.199 --> 00:56:50.800
are the true advocates for their child, and you have

1064
00:56:50.880 --> 00:56:54.000
to be relentless sometimes and it shouldn't.

1065
00:56:53.599 --> 00:56:54.440
Be that way.

1066
00:56:54.679 --> 00:56:59.280
If you go missing, you should the same amount of

1067
00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:01.960
effort should be used on every person that's missing. And

1068
00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:03.679
that's something that we talk about all the time that

1069
00:57:03.880 --> 00:57:04.679
we both hate.

1070
00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:08.239
Yeah, it's just so so sad and heartbreaking. I want

1071
00:57:08.280 --> 00:57:10.840
to ask you the obvious question, which is do you

1072
00:57:10.880 --> 00:57:13.199
think that the jury made the right decision based on

1073
00:57:13.239 --> 00:57:14.840
what you know? I know you didn't sit through seven

1074
00:57:14.920 --> 00:57:16.719
days of trial, but do you believe they made the

1075
00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:20.480
right decision? And separate question, do you believe that Christopher

1076
00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:21.360
killed Melissa?

1077
00:57:21.800 --> 00:57:26.360
Yes, I believe that he killed Melissa, But I think

1078
00:57:26.360 --> 00:57:28.880
I agree with the jury's verdict, you know, not knowing

1079
00:57:28.920 --> 00:57:31.039
all the evidence, but it does seem like there was

1080
00:57:31.079 --> 00:57:31.840
reasonable doubt.

1081
00:57:31.840 --> 00:57:32.440
What do you think?

1082
00:57:32.599 --> 00:57:34.960
Yeah, I feel the same way. I think it's most

1083
00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:37.639
likely that he did it, just based on the history

1084
00:57:37.679 --> 00:57:40.800
between them, the domestic abuse, the fact that he had

1085
00:57:40.840 --> 00:57:44.480
the motive, the opportunity, the fact that her body parts

1086
00:57:44.519 --> 00:57:46.760
were found right by where he worked. I think there's

1087
00:57:46.800 --> 00:57:49.239
a lot of that evidence. But I also think that

1088
00:57:49.440 --> 00:57:51.880
as a juror, I would have had a hard time

1089
00:57:52.159 --> 00:57:55.119
convicting him just because of the lack of forensic evidence.

1090
00:57:55.760 --> 00:57:59.159
If it weren't for Carl Enorma's criminal history, I think

1091
00:57:59.239 --> 00:58:01.960
that I would have been more likely to convict him.

1092
00:58:02.239 --> 00:58:04.559
Yeah, I could see that. I'm sure that left a

1093
00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:07.239
lot of jurors with some reasonable doubt.

1094
00:58:07.119 --> 00:58:09.719
Right, Like, I really don't think her parents had anything

1095
00:58:09.719 --> 00:58:11.599
to do with her disappearance or murder.

1096
00:58:11.360 --> 00:58:14.480
But having a serial killer that closest to the victim

1097
00:58:14.719 --> 00:58:17.239
would definitely cause one to think, well, maybe it could

1098
00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:18.079
have been right.

1099
00:58:18.039 --> 00:58:21.519
And literally no, I mean there's no forensic evidence indicating

1100
00:58:21.559 --> 00:58:22.400
her family either.

1101
00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:23.199
Yeah.

1102
00:58:23.239 --> 00:58:26.320
What do you make of Carl suddenly becoming remorseful when

1103
00:58:26.360 --> 00:58:29.280
his own daughter is murdered? Saying that he said that

1104
00:58:29.400 --> 00:58:32.000
he truly didn't understand the hurt and grief he had

1105
00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:35.199
caused with his own actions until he experienced the loss

1106
00:58:35.199 --> 00:58:37.519
of Melissa. Do you think that he was being sincere?

1107
00:58:37.880 --> 00:58:38.079
Oh?

1108
00:58:38.159 --> 00:58:40.960
Yeah, absolutely, I mean I'm sure he was devastated by

1109
00:58:40.960 --> 00:58:42.039
the loss of his daughter.

1110
00:58:42.280 --> 00:58:44.519
Yeah, I'm sure he was devastated too. I just it

1111
00:58:44.639 --> 00:58:47.840
just really frustrates me when somebody has a when somebody

1112
00:58:47.840 --> 00:58:51.400
can't empathize until it happens to them. We hear about

1113
00:58:51.400 --> 00:58:53.519
that all the time, and it just seems like he

1114
00:58:53.599 --> 00:58:56.039
killed five people, but he didn't really feel bad about

1115
00:58:56.039 --> 00:58:58.400
it until it happened to him, you know, his own daughter.

1116
00:58:58.599 --> 00:59:01.079
I think as a parent, that lot of my karma

1117
00:59:01.199 --> 00:59:04.079
affecting my child is devastating.

1118
00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:06.880
Do you want to elaborate on that at all? What

1119
00:59:06.960 --> 00:59:08.440
karma are you referring to?

1120
00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:11.800
I just mean if my bad actions reflected on my

1121
00:59:11.920 --> 00:59:15.719
child and affected you know, got our child god Ford

1122
00:59:16.199 --> 00:59:19.159
killed you know, I mean, how do you recover from that?

1123
00:59:19.320 --> 00:59:21.760
The guilt of that would be on your conscience forever.

1124
00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:24.800
Yeah, very true. We talked about it a little bit.

1125
00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:26.559
But what do you think about the way that the

1126
00:59:26.599 --> 00:59:30.039
authorities handled it when Norma finally tried to report Melissa

1127
00:59:30.079 --> 00:59:33.440
as missing, Like obviously they didn't take it seriously. I

1128
00:59:33.519 --> 00:59:37.079
just wonder what needs to change to ensure that when

1129
00:59:37.079 --> 00:59:40.559
someone is reported missing, even if it's not by the husband, Like,

1130
00:59:40.639 --> 00:59:41.920
how do we fix that?

1131
00:59:42.440 --> 00:59:44.800
Yeah, that's a good question. I wish we could fix that.

1132
00:59:44.920 --> 00:59:48.119
It depends a lot where you go missing. You know,

1133
00:59:48.239 --> 00:59:51.960
in Atlanta people go missing very frequently, and it's just

1134
00:59:52.239 --> 00:59:54.079
not not taken as seriously.

1135
00:59:53.800 --> 00:59:56.360
Right, And I'm sure I can understand sort of the

1136
00:59:56.400 --> 00:59:58.840
initial reaction being well, she might have left, they had

1137
00:59:58.840 --> 01:00:01.039
a troubled marriage, but at least check it out, at

1138
01:00:01.119 --> 01:00:03.840
least track her down and ask her like, hey, did

1139
01:00:03.880 --> 01:00:06.880
you leave? But not even trying to do that. It's

1140
01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:08.280
just so frustrating to me.

1141
01:00:08.679 --> 01:00:11.880
This did happen over twenty years ago. And I think

1142
01:00:11.920 --> 01:00:14.679
that we've gotten better. Yeah, I don't think we're perfect,

1143
01:00:14.760 --> 01:00:18.440
but with just the awareness of true crime and people

1144
01:00:18.480 --> 01:00:20.880
you know, listening to our podcast and other podcast and

1145
01:00:20.920 --> 01:00:23.679
watching true crime shows, like, we all know how to

1146
01:00:23.719 --> 01:00:25.800
handle these things better. And we all know that if

1147
01:00:25.840 --> 01:00:28.280
your loved one goes missing, you have to be relentless.

1148
01:00:28.320 --> 01:00:31.199
And it's really sad, Like you didn't say anything about

1149
01:00:31.239 --> 01:00:34.639
community searches and a lot of times the community is

1150
01:00:34.760 --> 01:00:39.079
integral to helping find symptoms too. Think it takes a

1151
01:00:39.599 --> 01:00:41.199
you know, not just the family should have to look

1152
01:00:41.199 --> 01:00:43.440
for their loved one. As a community, we all need

1153
01:00:43.480 --> 01:00:44.800
to you know, get together.

1154
01:00:44.880 --> 01:00:47.440
Yeah, and that's a great point. Last question for you.

1155
01:00:47.519 --> 01:00:49.559
It seems likely at this point that there will never

1156
01:00:49.639 --> 01:00:52.599
be justice for Melissa. Who do you think is most

1157
01:00:52.639 --> 01:00:55.159
to blame? For the lack of justice in this case.

1158
01:00:55.440 --> 01:00:58.119
I don't want to place blame on anyone necessarily, but

1159
01:00:58.480 --> 01:01:03.039
as a parent, I if the police didn't respond, I

1160
01:01:03.079 --> 01:01:05.320
think that I would keep bothering them, like every day,

1161
01:01:05.400 --> 01:01:09.119
like you know, she's still missing. Yeah, you know, I

1162
01:01:09.239 --> 01:01:11.760
know that she didn't go to California. I think you

1163
01:01:11.840 --> 01:01:14.280
just have to be really aggressive and you know, maybe

1164
01:01:14.440 --> 01:01:17.840
call different police officers, like a different Yeah.

1165
01:01:18.119 --> 01:01:21.079
Yeah, definitely you could be more aggressive. I think we

1166
01:01:21.079 --> 01:01:23.800
would if we were in that situation. I can't imagine

1167
01:01:23.840 --> 01:01:28.159
not demanding answers and not resting until we found those answers.

1168
01:01:28.280 --> 01:01:30.599
But I do also wonder, you know, maybe asked a

1169
01:01:30.639 --> 01:01:33.400
different way. Is if they had made the connection early

1170
01:01:33.440 --> 01:01:36.440
on that the body parts that they found belonged to Melissa,

1171
01:01:36.760 --> 01:01:38.599
I wonder how likely it would have been that they

1172
01:01:38.599 --> 01:01:41.599
would have been able to solve the case definitively. There

1173
01:01:41.599 --> 01:01:42.000
would have.

1174
01:01:41.920 --> 01:01:44.920
Been more evidence, right, and the DNA on the garbage

1175
01:01:44.960 --> 01:01:48.000
bag may have belonged to Christopher at that point, they

1176
01:01:48.039 --> 01:01:49.440
may have been able to retrieve that.

1177
01:01:49.719 --> 01:01:51.400
Yeah, so I think there were a lot of failures.

1178
01:01:51.400 --> 01:01:54.280
There was a failure, you know, when she was reported missing,

1179
01:01:54.360 --> 01:01:57.840
the parents, their history was obviously had a big impact

1180
01:01:57.880 --> 01:02:00.719
on her not getting justice, the fact that they didn't

1181
01:02:00.760 --> 01:02:03.079
identify the remains. There's so many things, so that's why

1182
01:02:03.079 --> 01:02:03.920
this case is just so.

1183
01:02:04.360 --> 01:02:06.840
It is really so from it definitely deserved better.

1184
01:02:06.960 --> 01:02:07.920
Yep. Absolutely.

1185
01:02:14.360 --> 01:02:17.639
Before we go, I made a little waffle House trivia

1186
01:02:17.679 --> 01:02:18.159
game for you.

1187
01:02:18.639 --> 01:02:19.320
Oh you ready?

1188
01:02:19.920 --> 01:02:21.400
Sure, I'm not going to do well on it, but

1189
01:02:21.440 --> 01:02:22.800
I will give it my best shot.

1190
01:02:22.880 --> 01:02:25.920
Okay, what year was the very first waffle house opened?

1191
01:02:26.280 --> 01:02:27.400
Is this multiple choice?

1192
01:02:27.559 --> 01:02:27.880
Okay?

1193
01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:31.000
Forty nine, fifty five, sixty one or seventy two.

1194
01:02:31.239 --> 01:02:33.800
Sounds like a nineteen fifties thing. I'll go with fifty five.

1195
01:02:34.079 --> 01:02:35.079
You are correct.

1196
01:02:35.199 --> 01:02:37.119
Can you keep score of your right answers? Because I

1197
01:02:37.440 --> 01:02:38.159
can't do both?

1198
01:02:38.280 --> 01:02:38.599
Sure?

1199
01:02:38.840 --> 01:02:42.599
How many waffle Houses locations are there today? Eight hundred

1200
01:02:42.599 --> 01:02:45.079
and twelve hundred, two thousand or four thousand?

1201
01:02:45.480 --> 01:02:47.079
Oh boy, I'll say two thousand.

1202
01:02:47.480 --> 01:02:50.440
Again, you are correct. This is lightning speed. By the way,

1203
01:02:50.920 --> 01:02:53.800
waffle House is famous for having its own disaster scale

1204
01:02:54.079 --> 01:02:57.199
used by FEMA. What is it called the Waffle Index,

1205
01:02:57.239 --> 01:02:59.880
the waffle House Index, the hash Brown Scale, or the

1206
01:03:00.280 --> 01:03:02.280
Southern Survival Index.

1207
01:03:02.480 --> 01:03:04.400
I have heard this before, and I believe it is

1208
01:03:04.440 --> 01:03:05.639
the Waffle House index.

1209
01:03:05.800 --> 01:03:06.480
You are correct.

1210
01:03:06.840 --> 01:03:10.199
What does a scattered, smothered, and covered mean? Waffles with

1211
01:03:10.239 --> 01:03:13.480
powdered sugar, syrup and butter, eggs with onions and cheese,

1212
01:03:13.679 --> 01:03:16.840
hash browns spread on the grill, topped with onions and cheese,

1213
01:03:16.960 --> 01:03:19.519
or biscuits with gravy, sausage and eggs.

1214
01:03:19.920 --> 01:03:21.559
Boy, that's a tough one. I'm gonna I think it's

1215
01:03:21.559 --> 01:03:22.639
probably the hash browns.

1216
01:03:22.960 --> 01:03:25.199
Again, you are I don't know how you know such

1217
01:03:25.199 --> 01:03:28.280
a bunch about waffle House. Which of these is not

1218
01:03:28.480 --> 01:03:33.159
a real waffle House hash browns style? Chunked, diced, peppered,

1219
01:03:33.320 --> 01:03:33.920
or loaded.

1220
01:03:34.880 --> 01:03:37.119
I'll go it chunked, no, loaded.

1221
01:03:37.239 --> 01:03:40.840
Oh darn it, there goes that perfect score. Waffle House

1222
01:03:40.960 --> 01:03:46.000
serves approximately how many eggs per years? Five hundred million,

1223
01:03:46.199 --> 01:03:50.760
one billion, two billion, or three billion. I am shocked

1224
01:03:50.800 --> 01:03:54.719
that all most of these are billions? Are you like billion?

1225
01:03:54.840 --> 01:03:57.840
That's a lot of eggs. It's a lot of chickens. Yeah,

1226
01:03:57.880 --> 01:03:59.039
that's a lot of Okay.

1227
01:03:58.760 --> 01:03:59.360
What did you say?

1228
01:03:59.519 --> 01:04:00.440
I said to billion?

1229
01:04:00.599 --> 01:04:04.599
You have redeemed yourself, sir. True or false? Waffle House

1230
01:04:04.639 --> 01:04:07.400
has a record label true? True?

1231
01:04:07.599 --> 01:04:10.760
What is the most ordered item at waffle House?

1232
01:04:10.880 --> 01:04:11.440
Waffles?

1233
01:04:11.599 --> 01:04:14.280
Bacon, hash browns or cheeseburgers.

1234
01:04:13.960 --> 01:04:17.320
Ummm, hash browns, because that goes with a lot of

1235
01:04:17.320 --> 01:04:17.880
different things.

1236
01:04:18.039 --> 01:04:21.159
Correct, what is the maximum number of toppings you can

1237
01:04:21.280 --> 01:04:25.360
order on waffle house hash browns? The maximum four? Six,

1238
01:04:25.480 --> 01:04:26.079
eight or ten?

1239
01:04:26.639 --> 01:04:27.840
Ummm eight?

1240
01:04:29.119 --> 01:04:30.360
Did you did you see?

1241
01:04:30.800 --> 01:04:33.599
No? Been a little bit of a pattern here. I'm

1242
01:04:33.599 --> 01:04:35.840
just gonna say, like when there when it's a question

1243
01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:39.559
like that, it's the second highest number. Like every time

1244
01:04:39.599 --> 01:04:40.920
it's been the second highest number.

1245
01:04:41.159 --> 01:04:46.119
That's not true. Actually it's because it's not true or false.

1246
01:04:46.159 --> 01:04:49.519
There are waffle houses that have never closed, not for hurricanes,

1247
01:04:49.559 --> 01:04:51.559
not for blizzards, not even for Christmas.

1248
01:04:51.880 --> 01:04:53.920
Um. I guess I'll go with true.

1249
01:04:54.239 --> 01:04:54.519
True.

1250
01:04:54.679 --> 01:04:58.440
Some locations are open twenty four seven, three sixty five

1251
01:04:58.800 --> 01:05:02.800
and only close or extreme disaster conditions. And that's what

1252
01:05:02.880 --> 01:05:05.920
people say, like in the event of an emergency, you

1253
01:05:05.960 --> 01:05:08.360
can go to a waffle house and you'll be safe.

1254
01:05:08.840 --> 01:05:14.440
So one more question, which state has the most waffle houses?

1255
01:05:15.039 --> 01:05:17.760
Not multiple choice? I guess I'll go with Georgia.

1256
01:05:17.960 --> 01:05:23.760
You were correct, Dang, you definitely in really freaking well.

1257
01:05:23.039 --> 01:05:24.159
Did you get in ninety percent?

1258
01:05:24.360 --> 01:05:25.840
I got all that one. I don't know how many

1259
01:05:25.960 --> 01:05:27.159
questions there were pretend.

1260
01:05:27.239 --> 01:05:30.440
So that's well, I guess the bonus question you got right,

1261
01:05:30.480 --> 01:05:33.880
So yeah, you are an a student sirled.

1262
01:05:33.480 --> 01:05:34.159
What a nerd?

1263
01:05:36.039 --> 01:05:36.960
I have read everything?

1264
01:05:37.039 --> 01:05:38.840
Now, really I would not have done as well.

1265
01:05:39.079 --> 01:05:41.280
Yeah those were all wild guesses pretty much.

1266
01:05:41.480 --> 01:05:44.679
Yeah, well good for you, thank you, because so many

1267
01:05:44.679 --> 01:05:46.800
of our friends to the south are going to have

1268
01:05:46.880 --> 01:05:48.840
so much weather that we're used to and they're not

1269
01:05:48.960 --> 01:05:49.400
this week.

1270
01:05:49.880 --> 01:05:51.920
What advice do you have to take yourself to a

1271
01:05:51.960 --> 01:05:54.360
waffle right? Well?

1272
01:05:54.400 --> 01:05:56.800
No, I mean I think I think the best advice

1273
01:05:56.840 --> 01:05:58.679
is staying there. What do you like to do on

1274
01:05:58.719 --> 01:05:59.280
a snow day?

1275
01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:02.079
I just like to stay home and watch a show

1276
01:06:02.199 --> 01:06:02.440
or a.

1277
01:06:02.400 --> 01:06:04.639
Movie, stand or a blanket, read a book.

1278
01:06:04.719 --> 01:06:06.000
Yeah, absolutely, And.

1279
01:06:06.000 --> 01:06:07.400
When should people shovel?

1280
01:06:07.519 --> 01:06:07.599
Like?

1281
01:06:07.639 --> 01:06:09.480
That has to be something that people think about.

1282
01:06:09.559 --> 01:06:12.800
That is something I think about very very much because

1283
01:06:12.840 --> 01:06:14.800
there's a lot of factors to take into account.

1284
01:06:14.880 --> 01:06:16.199
I do because there really are.

1285
01:06:16.440 --> 01:06:19.559
And if you're going to get twenty inches of snow, right,

1286
01:06:19.559 --> 01:06:21.639
you don't want to shovel twenty inches at No.

1287
01:06:21.679 --> 01:06:24.400
You probably want to shovel three times or four times

1288
01:06:24.440 --> 01:06:27.280
in there. So, yeah, you got to count on the temperatures,

1289
01:06:27.800 --> 01:06:29.719
You got to look at when it stops snowing. Is

1290
01:06:29.719 --> 01:06:31.639
it going to snow again. There's so many things that

1291
01:06:31.719 --> 01:06:33.199
go into it, very complicated.

1292
01:06:33.480 --> 01:06:36.599
I'm scared for people because of the ice. Like snow

1293
01:06:36.679 --> 01:06:38.519
is one thing, Like you can drive in snow, it's

1294
01:06:38.559 --> 01:06:42.360
not that scary, but the ice is super scary. So please,

1295
01:06:42.360 --> 01:06:43.840
if you're getting ice, to stay home.

1296
01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:45.920
Yeah, And a lot of people, unfortunately don't have that

1297
01:06:46.000 --> 01:06:48.159
luxury of just saying I'm going to stay home today, right,

1298
01:06:48.639 --> 01:06:50.920
if you have to go to work, it's just really scary.

1299
01:06:51.000 --> 01:06:52.639
So just yeah, be careful out there.

1300
01:06:52.880 --> 01:06:55.719
So you're like America's dad or uncle.

1301
01:06:55.639 --> 01:06:56.559
Or whatever you are.

1302
01:06:57.079 --> 01:06:59.239
No, I'm not okay, go ahead, all right?

1303
01:06:59.280 --> 01:07:01.719
Well, give everyone's some driving tips. What do you say

1304
01:07:01.760 --> 01:07:02.960
about driving in this weather?

1305
01:07:03.360 --> 01:07:07.199
Driving? So, the scary part in driving in snow and

1306
01:07:07.239 --> 01:07:09.880
ice is when you have to stop or when you

1307
01:07:09.920 --> 01:07:13.559
have to turn. If you're going straight, is not that bad,

1308
01:07:13.679 --> 01:07:14.159
it's really not.

1309
01:07:14.440 --> 01:07:17.000
You're not going to slide unless you're stopping or turning.

1310
01:07:16.840 --> 01:07:19.760
Yes, exactly. So just give yourself plenty of room when

1311
01:07:19.760 --> 01:07:21.599
you're like you're coming up to a stop later a

1312
01:07:21.599 --> 01:07:24.559
stop sign, just lay off the gas way in advance

1313
01:07:24.599 --> 01:07:26.760
and let yourself almost coast to a stop. Yeah, and

1314
01:07:26.800 --> 01:07:30.239
you're coming up to a curve, same thing, Like, just slow.

1315
01:07:30.039 --> 01:07:32.679
Down, don't worry about the people that are driving too

1316
01:07:32.719 --> 01:07:34.760
fast behind you. If you want to go twenty miles

1317
01:07:34.800 --> 01:07:36.320
per hour, you go twenty miles per hour.

1318
01:07:36.400 --> 01:07:36.920
Yeah, that's right.

1319
01:07:36.920 --> 01:07:38.679
People want to be jerks and pass you let them.

1320
01:07:38.800 --> 01:07:41.519
Yeah. Just be really careful about like breaking too fast

1321
01:07:41.639 --> 01:07:44.760
or accelerating too fast. And if you do start like skidding,

1322
01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:48.039
like sliding sideways, you want to steer in the direction

1323
01:07:48.199 --> 01:07:50.719
of the skid. So if your car is starting to

1324
01:07:50.760 --> 01:07:52.519
turn to the left, you want to turn the steering

1325
01:07:52.519 --> 01:07:54.559
wheel to the left to try to keep it straight

1326
01:07:54.639 --> 01:07:55.199
on the road.

1327
01:07:55.440 --> 01:07:55.760
Right.

1328
01:07:56.079 --> 01:07:59.480
What about Oh what about a white out though, that's

1329
01:07:59.519 --> 01:08:00.800
a whole differ sa ball game.

1330
01:08:00.719 --> 01:08:01.079
That is.

1331
01:08:01.519 --> 01:08:05.000
I have no advice, just because sometimes like the road,

1332
01:08:05.119 --> 01:08:08.440
like literally you can't see the lines. So just stay home.

1333
01:08:08.599 --> 01:08:10.119
Just stay home if you're able to.

1334
01:08:10.320 --> 01:08:14.519
Yes, Thank you all so much for listening. Please rate, review, follow,

1335
01:08:14.559 --> 01:08:17.840
and subscribe. Find us on social media, which now includes

1336
01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:21.920
YouTube and TikTok wow, or send us an email at

1337
01:08:22.000 --> 01:08:24.399
Lovemarykill at gmail dot com.

1338
01:08:24.199 --> 01:08:27.560
And please consider supporting us on Patreon. Go to patreon

1339
01:08:27.600 --> 01:08:30.560
dot com. Slash Love Marykill. We only have one tier

1340
01:08:30.720 --> 01:08:33.039
for five dollars a month for early ad free access

1341
01:08:33.119 --> 01:08:37.640
and a monthly bonus episode and our eternal gratitude.

1342
01:08:37.079 --> 01:08:39.000
And appreciation until next time.

1343
01:08:39.119 --> 01:09:20.399
Don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife.

1344
01:09:08.600 --> 01:09:26.439
M Hey you, Tina, hey Rich?

1345
01:09:26.600 --> 01:09:27.439
How are you today?

1346
01:09:27.760 --> 01:09:28.039
Wow?

1347
01:09:28.840 --> 01:09:29.520
Yelling at me.

1348
01:09:31.000 --> 01:09:32.159
I didn't know you were going to make me say

1349
01:09:32.239 --> 01:09:32.840
hi I again. Okay,