May 19, 2025

Miriam and Richard Illes

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In January 1999, Miriam Illes was gunned down in her kitchen while on the phone with a friend. There were no witnesses. No fingerprints. And the few pieces of physical evidence—an oversized shoe print, a cigarette butt, and a homemade silencer—seemed to point nowhere.

Her estranged husband, Dr. Richard Illes, was a respected heart surgeon with a thriving career, a new girlfriend, and a bitter custody battle underway. He also had an airtight alibi—until investigators started pulling at the seams.It was a murder that some called “almost perfect,” but ultimately it unraveled under the weight of its own misdirection. Anonymous letters, planted evidence, and a chilling unfinished manuscript brought one man’s elaborate plan crashing down.

Was it a brilliant cover-up? Or a case of ego gone wrong?

Support us on Patreon

Today's snack: Albanese Candy assortment (thanks Lana!)

Sources:

  • https://www.lycolaw.org/uploads/opinions/2005-Illes070805br.pdf
  • The Perfect Murder, S1 E1, The Heart Shot.
  • Kinney, David. “Reward offered in woman’s slaying.” The News Journal (Wilmington, Delaware), 04 Sep. 1999.
  • Shellem, Pete. “Doctor objects to grand jury writ.” The Patriot-News (Harrisburg, Pennsylvania), 19 Jan. 2000.
  • Beauge, John. “‘We’re looking for justice’.” The Patriot-News (Harrisburg, Pennsylvania), 09 Dec. 2001.
  • Lewerenz, Dan. “Police: Silencer ties husband to wife’s killing.” Centre Daily Times, 19 Dec. 2002.
  • Lewerenz, Dan. “Surgeon sniper shot wife: Police.” National Post, 20 Dec. 2002.
  • Dale, Maryclaire. “Physician arrested in Spokane for 1999 Pennsylvania slaying.” The News Tribune (Tacoma, Washington), 23 Dec. 2002.
  • Beauge, John. “Doctor wished wife dead, nurse testifies.” The Patriot-News (Harrisburg, Pennsylvania), 20 Feb. 2003.
  • Lewerenz, Dan. “Nurse says doc wanted wife dead.” Press Enterprise (Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania), 21 Feb. 2003.
  • Beauge, John. “Heart surgeon’s trial opens.” The Patriot-News (Harrisburg, Pennsylvania), 21 Jan. 2004.
  • Beauge, John. “Suicide try lengthens mental hospital stay.” The Patriot-News (Harrisburg, Pennsylvania), 04 Mar. 2004.
  • “Surgeon denies killing wife.” The Patriot-News (Harrisburg, Pennsylvania), 30 Mar. 2004.
WEBVTT

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Hi.

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I am Rich and I'm Tina.

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And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty

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years of marriage.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your husband, and.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill.

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Hi, Tina, Hey Rich, How are you.

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I'm good? How are you?

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I'm good.

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I'm a little nervous about recording today.

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Though, because everyone loved Emma, yes exactly.

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The last thing we recorded was your special Mother's Day

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episode and everyone really appreciated Emma.

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So I think everyone appreciates you too. It's just nice

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to hear a different voice sometimes.

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So you're saying I do have job security.

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Absolutely, Oh that's good.

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Well, this is a nice break. I was working on

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the toilet so doing a podcast, as you.

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Just told me you were on the toilet. I was like, oh,

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but then you.

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I was working with the toilet. Yeah.

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I was replacing the seal under the toilet, which is

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a horrible job. I really respect plumbers who do that.

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Yeah, they work really hard.

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I like this waxy stuff under there and you can't

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get it off, Like you can wash and wash and wash,

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but it just doesn't come off.

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So that's toilet residue on your hands. That's nice.

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Yeah, that's what I'm dealing with.

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So are you going to go right into toilet talk

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to snack?

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Probably?

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Yeah, yeah, classy.

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Before I go into snack, though, I have I have

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a major announcement to make.

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You're leaving me for a younger woman.

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No, no, an older woman. I think I have a

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new favorite apple variety.

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Oh wow, this is breaking news. Breaking news.

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Everyone we've talked before. I've always been a Fuji guy.

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You've always been a honey crisp kind of gal.

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I mean I like a gala too.

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Yeah.

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Galas are good too. But we tried Envy apples the

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other day and they're so good. I think it's my

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new favorite.

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Wow.

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Wow, They're juicy, they're sweet there, they're just lovely.

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You know, normally we do buy two varieties of apples.

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Believe it or not, we do eat apples.

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A lot and apple a day.

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I don't need an apple a day. You are very

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regimented in lots of areas of your life, including the

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way you eat.

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I usually have an apple for lunch.

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You just have a sandwich and an apple, and I

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like to mix it up.

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Yeah, so you like the envy apples too, though.

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Yes, I was going to say they're a happy medium

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for both of us. I could see although a honey

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crisp in the fall, nothing beats like a Michigan honey

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crisp apple in the fall, so you know, nothing, they're

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so they're like twice as expensive as other apples, so

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you know, I don't really buy them a lot other

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than in the fall.

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Yeah.

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Well, I have a snack for you today.

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It is not an apple.

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It's not an apple. I think it's very special snack though,

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because our listener Lana sent.

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It to us.

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Oh, Lana is the best.

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She is from Indiana, and I think it is a

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local treat from Indiana.

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Oh awesome.

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There are like ten things in this box. There's a lot,

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but most to them are from the Albanese gummy and

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Tacol company.

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That's amazing. You opened this and I did not.

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Yes, I opened it and looked inside and Lana sent

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us all these great things. There's a couple of different

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gummy I.

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Did not realize that Albanese was from Indiana.

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I did not either. It's from u Meryllville, Indiana. There's

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a gummy ice cream cone and there's a whole bunch

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of little chocolate things in there too, So I don't

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think we're gonna be able to try everything, but let's

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have a little sample.

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Absolutely.

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How did you like those Indiana snacks?

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I loved them.

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They were really good. What did you try?

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I had a few gummy bears and I had the

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pecans so so good.

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Good.

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Yeah, and the gummy bears are I think they sell

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We sell the same ones here, like if you go

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to bushes near us. I think they have the same ones.

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They're just a really nice gummy bear. They're just really

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I don't know.

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They are really good either.

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Yeah.

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I had the dark chocolate covered pretzels and toffee. Those

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are a really good to do it for both chocolate.

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Yes, well I went for the gummies.

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Oh you did?

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Okay?

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Yeah that was so good.

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Yeah, thank you so much, fun snack.

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Thank you so much, Lana. We really appreciate you. We've

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had a lot of very sweet listeners send us snacks lately,

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so if you've sent us something, it might take us

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a little while to get to it, but we really

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appreciate it so much.

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Yeah.

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Wh It's always so fun to see what people send

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from different parts of the United States or we've had

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a couple in the world, Canada and the world, so

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we really do appreciate it so much.

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Today we're going to tell the story of Miriam and

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Richard Illis, and this case was a recommendation from our listener, Chelsea.

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Thank you, Chelsea. You've told me a couple of little

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tidbits about this case, and I'm really looking forward to

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hearing the whole thing.

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It's an interesting one. It was a cold January night

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in Williamsport, Pennsylvania. Snow had fallen earlier in the day,

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blanketing the town in white. Inside a quiet suburban kitchen,

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forty seven year old Miriam Illis was on the phone

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with a friend in Montana. It was a normal conversation,

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the kind people have every day, until it wasn't. A

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single gunshot shattered the window behind Miriam. The bullet pierced

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the glass, struck Miriam from behind, and ended her life

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in an instant. Miriam was a devoted mother, a respected

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medical professional, and the estranged wife of one of the

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area's most prominent heart surgeons, doctor Richard Illis. From the outside,

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doctor Illis seemed to have it all, a thriving career,

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a beautiful family and the admiration of his community. But

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the Illesses marriage had been unraveling for years. By nineteen

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ninety nine, they were locked in a bitter, high stakes divorce,

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battling over money, property, and custody of their five year

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old son, Ritchie. At first, the evidence pointed nowhere, no witnesses,

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no fingerprints, unknown DNA, And yet the deeper investigators dug,

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the more they uncovered a portrait of a man who

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had everything to lose and would stop at nothing to

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keep control. Some would later call it a crime that

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was almost perfect. Before the gunshot, before the investigation, before

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the courtroom drama, there was just a couple. Miriam Zambi

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was born in the US to a Catholic Lebanese American family.

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She was smart, warm, and deeply rooted in her faith.

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By the late eighties, she had built a respected career

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as a profusionist, someone who operates the heart lung machine

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during open heart surgeries. I had never heard of that

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profession before.

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So essentially, the patient's life is in their hands right

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because they're pumping their heart for them during surgery.

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Yeah, it's an intense, high pressure role. It demands precision

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and focus. And that was how she met Richard Illis.

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At the time, Richard was training to become a heart surgeon.

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He was ambitious and confident, already making a name for himself.

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They were both dedicated professionals, and neither had been married before.

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In nineteen ninety one, they started dating, and about a

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year later they tied the knot. Richard had grown up

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in rural Pennsylvania. He often spoke fondly of his upbringing

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and the man he considered a father figure, Uncle Joe,

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who taught him how to hunt and handled guns. Richard

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wanted to return to those roots, so after the wedding,

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he and Miriam moved from Saint Louis to Williamsport, Pennsylvania.

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Williamsport is a quiet town of about thirty thousand people,

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surrounded by hills and woods. Richard joined Susquehanna Health System,

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and by nineteen ninety four he was working as a

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cardiothoracic surgeon at Williamsport Hospital. Within a few years, he

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rose to chief of the department. He was considered one

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of the best in the field. By the mid nineteen nineties,

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his income had topped a million dollars a year. They

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bought a sprawling home in the suburb of Cogan Station.

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They hired help, joined the country club, took lavish vacations

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to the outside world. They were the definition of success,

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but Miriam remained grounded. She had the house and the lifestyle,

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but she didn't care much for status. Her world revolved

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around their son, Richie, born in nineteen ninety three. She

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gave up her career to raise him full time. She

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joined the PTA led Sunday School, started a children's education

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program at their church. One friend would later say, quote,

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Miriam made more friends in five years than most people

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do in a lifetime. While Miriam built a life around

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family and community, Richard buried himself in work. The hours

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were long, the pressure intense, and he didn't hide his temper.

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Colleagues said he was brilliant but demanding, and when something

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didn't go his way, he let people know. As the

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years passed, the couple grew further apart. By early nineteen

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ninety eight, things had reached a breaking point. That February,

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Miriam left town briefly to visit her family in Atlanta.

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When she returned, Richard told her they were done. He

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claimed that she had abandoned the marriage by leaving the

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state and told friends they were separated and that he

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had no intention of reconciling.

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How long had she been gone for?

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Not very long at all.

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I think he just used that as an excuse to

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make the make the cut. Miriam decided she needed to

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act quickly to protect her interests. She went to the

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bank and withdrew three hundred thousand dollars half of the

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money from their joint account. Richard stole formed into the

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bank later that day. Furious that no one had notified him,

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he closed the account and moved the remaining money into

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an account solely in his name.

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So their bank account had six hundred thousand dollars in it.

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It's funny, that's it's exact same amount. That's an arc, Yeah,

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Gary Quincy, five hundred and ninety five thousand dollars.

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Well, with those actions, the battle lines were drawn and

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it was just going to get uglier from there. They

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were both still living in the house, each refusing to

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leave until Miriam finally gave in. She filed for divorce

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and rented a place about fifteen minutes away. Richard responded

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with a custody complaint demanding sole possession of the house

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and primary custody of Richie. In May, a judge ordered

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Richard to pay over eighty eight hundred dollars per month

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in spousal and child support. A few months later, that

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number jumped to more than thirteen thousand dollars. Oh, I

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thought that was a lot, But then when I looked

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at it compared to his income. If he was making

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a million dollars a year, it's only one hundred and

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fifty six thousand a year, so it's really not that

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much for him. I'm sure it felt like a lot,

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but in the grand scheme of things, pretty small.

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Okay, if you say so.

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Then came the final blow. In July, Miriam discovered that

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Richard was in a relationship with a woman from the hospital,

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Catherine Swowyer. Miriam had once suggested hiring Katherine as her

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replacement when she left her job to raise Richie. Now

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00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:29.879
Catherine had replaced her in more ways than one. That summer,

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00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:33.679
Catherine moved in with Richard. Miriam was devastated, but more

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00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:36.519
than that, she was scared. She was worried about custody,

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about money, about what Richard might do. The legal battle

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intensified in the fall Richard's attorney accused Miriam of dragging

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out the divorce just to keep collecting spousal support. There

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00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:52.440
were arguments over property over payments. Richard fell behind, and

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00:10:52.519 --> 00:10:56.360
in November he was served with a contempt petition. In December,

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00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:58.919
a nurse at the hospital overheard Richard say to a

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00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:01.919
colleague quote, I wish the bitch were dead. My life

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00:11:01.960 --> 00:11:05.080
would be a whole lot easier. In early January nineteen

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ninety nine, just one week before Miriam was killed, she

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00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:12.159
testified in court that months earlier, Richard had made significant

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withdrawals in an attempt to hide money from her. He

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00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:18.279
claimed the cash was for a gambling trip to Atlantic City,

248
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something that he said he did regularly. By that point,

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they had settled into a fragile routine. Miriam lived in

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00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:28.000
her rented home with Ritchie during the week, Richard had

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00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:31.159
him on weekends. Miriam had begun to regain her spark,

252
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spending more time with friends and reconnecting.

253
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With her community.

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Richard too appeared to be moving on, but beneath the surface,

255
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the resentment was still simmering.

256
00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:45.440
On Friday, January fifteenth, nineteen ninety nine, Richard Alice arrived

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00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:48.159
at Miriam's home on Sheridan Street to pick up their

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00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:50.600
five year old son, Ritchie for the weekend. He was

259
00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:53.960
about an hour late, but that wasn't unusual. He told

260
00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:57.080
Miriam they might go snowmobiling at the family cabin or

261
00:11:57.159 --> 00:12:01.600
perhaps visit his relatives in Downingtown. He hadn't decided yet.

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Nothing about the exchange seemed out of the ordinary. Later

263
00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:07.440
that night, Richard called Miriam again to say they were

264
00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:11.480
headed to Downingtown after all. On Sunday morning, two days later,

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00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:15.600
Miriam's friend Susan van Fleet was at church wondering where

266
00:12:15.639 --> 00:12:19.399
she was. Miriam was the director of Bible Studies. It

267
00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:22.279
was an important part of her life. She rarely missed

268
00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:25.679
a Sunday and if she did, she always called. But

269
00:12:25.720 --> 00:12:28.960
there had been no call. Susan fileden for her that morning,

270
00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:31.399
then told her husband to Wayne, we need to go

271
00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:35.440
check on Miriam. When the van Fleets arrived at Miriam's house,

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00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:38.320
they saw mail in the mail box and the newspapers

273
00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:41.600
still on the porch. They ring the door bell, no answer,

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00:12:42.159 --> 00:12:45.759
only the sound of Miriam's dogs barking from inside. They

275
00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:48.120
walked to the back of the house, where Dwayne peered

276
00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:51.399
through the kitchen window. Miriam was lying face down on

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00:12:51.480 --> 00:12:55.399
the floor. Susan called nine one one. When the police arrived,

278
00:12:55.480 --> 00:12:58.200
they found all the doors locked. They forced their way

279
00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:01.279
through the back and entered the house. Miriam was pronounced

280
00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:04.159
dead at the scene. She was forty seven years old.

281
00:13:04.279 --> 00:13:06.720
She lay on the kitchen floor with a cordless phone

282
00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:09.000
beside her. There was a hole in the window above

283
00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:12.000
the sink, and small shards of broken glass scattered on

284
00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:14.879
the counter. A single bullet had come through the window

285
00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:17.799
and struck her in the back. The fragments tore through

286
00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:22.159
her lungs, her heart, her aorda. The autopsy later determined

287
00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:25.320
she would have died within a few seconds of being shot.

288
00:13:25.559 --> 00:13:27.840
I would think whoever Miriam was on the phone with

289
00:13:27.960 --> 00:13:29.200
would have called nine one one.

290
00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:32.559
I just find it so horrifying to think about the

291
00:13:32.600 --> 00:13:34.679
fact that you can just be standing in your kitchen

292
00:13:34.759 --> 00:13:37.879
on the phone and suddenly, you know, totally out of nowhere,

293
00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:40.159
bullet just comes through the window and kills you.

294
00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:43.240
It's just so Behind Miriam's house was a gully that

295
00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:47.159
ran parallel to the street, lined with trees, separating Miriam's

296
00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:50.240
backyard from the backyards of the house's one street to

297
00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:53.919
the south. Investigators quickly found where the shot that killed

298
00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:56.720
Miriam had been fired from. There was a tree about

299
00:13:56.759 --> 00:13:59.639
seventy feet behind her house, and based on the shoe

300
00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:01.960
print and the snow that had fallen on Friday, it

301
00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:04.440
seemed clear that the killer had taken up a position

302
00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:08.159
behind the tree. He possibly steadied himself against the tree

303
00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:10.759
once he had a clear shot. Near the base of

304
00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:13.600
the tree was a cigarette butt. From there, the footprints

305
00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:17.480
continued west, passed a locked chain link fence surrounding a

306
00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:20.639
tennis court. Inside the fence just a few feet away

307
00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:24.600
with something else, a home made silencer. It looked like

308
00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:28.200
the killer had fired the shot, unscrewed the silencer, tossed

309
00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:30.799
it over the fence, then walked away. The trail of

310
00:14:30.799 --> 00:14:35.679
footprints ended about two hundred feet away near Limehurst Parkway.

311
00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:39.399
That was it. Three pieces of evidence, a cigarette butt,

312
00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:45.320
oversized shoeprints, and a homemade silencer. Nothing else. No white witnesses,

313
00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:49.159
no shell casings, no sign of a forest entry. Just

314
00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:52.360
a single sniper shot by someone who had waited for

315
00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:55.320
the perfect moment to strike. At five point twenty that

316
00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:58.960
Sunday afternoon, while police were still processing the scene, Richard

317
00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:02.480
returned to drop Richie off. He found his estranged wife's

318
00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:05.919
house surrounded by police cars and crime scene tape. When

319
00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:09.480
detectives told him Miriam was dead, he appeared stunned, but

320
00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:12.240
one thing stuck with them. The first words out of

321
00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:15.720
his mouth were has any evidence been found? Not what

322
00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:20.200
happened or who did this? Just has any evidence been found?

323
00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:24.759
To homicide detective John McDermott, it was an immediate red flag.

324
00:15:25.159 --> 00:15:29.279
McDermott was also surprised when five minutes later Richard's demeanor

325
00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:33.120
abruptly shifted from grief to matter of fact as he

326
00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:36.519
was questioned about his whereabouts over the weekend. Early in

327
00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:40.279
the investigation, there seemed to be only two possibilities. By

328
00:15:40.279 --> 00:15:45.240
all accounts, everyone loved Miriam Illis, everyone that is, except

329
00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:47.639
for maybe the man with whom she was entangled in

330
00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:51.639
a bitter and contentious divorce. Richard was certainly one possibility.

331
00:15:51.799 --> 00:15:53.919
If he killed Miriam and got away with it, he

332
00:15:53.960 --> 00:15:56.600
would be given custody of Richie, and it would benefit

333
00:15:56.679 --> 00:15:59.679
him financially as well. Not only would it eliminate the

334
00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:02.720
thought of dollars that he was paying in spousal support,

335
00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:05.559
there was also a two hundred and fifty thousand dollars

336
00:16:05.559 --> 00:16:09.679
life insurance policy on Miriam. He was still the beneficiary

337
00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:12.919
despite the fact that they'd been separated for months. If

338
00:16:12.919 --> 00:16:16.000
you're going through divorce, you should probably change your beneficiary

339
00:16:16.039 --> 00:16:20.000
as soon as possible and let your partner know. Yeah,

340
00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:20.919
your ex partner knows.

341
00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:21.080
Well.

342
00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:24.759
It's interesting because I think Richard managed those affairs in

343
00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:27.519
their marriage, the insurance and things like that, and he

344
00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:30.159
had there were two policies, one on himself and one

345
00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:33.200
on Miriam. And he actually did change the policy on

346
00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:36.840
himself to have Catherine, his new girlfriend, be the beneficiary,

347
00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:39.360
but he didn't change the policy on Miriam from him

348
00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:40.440
being the beneficiary.

349
00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:43.480
I'm not liking this guy so much now. The other

350
00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:47.159
possibility was some sort of random shooting, something like the

351
00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:50.080
DC sniper that would dominate the headlines a couple of

352
00:16:50.200 --> 00:16:54.120
years later, a homicidal maniac targeting people at random. That

353
00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:58.639
possibility set the community of Williamsport and surrounding areas on edge.

354
00:16:58.840 --> 00:17:01.720
The initial evidence points in the direction of the random

355
00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:05.119
shooter scenario. DNA found on the cigarette butt was not

356
00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:07.920
a match for Richard. Some small hairs had been found

357
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:11.599
on the silencer, and those didn't match Richard either. And lastly,

358
00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:14.240
Richard wore a size nine and a half shoe, while

359
00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:16.640
the shoe prints found on the scene were size thirteen

360
00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:20.039
or fourteen. The last confirmed time Miriam was seen alive

361
00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:23.039
was around five pm on Friday, when Richard arrived to

362
00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:26.160
pick up Ritchie for the weekend. At that point, investigators

363
00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:28.440
were left with a wide window for the time of

364
00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:32.400
death sometime between Friday evening and Sunday morning, but a

365
00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:36.119
critical break narrowed that window to almost the exact moment

366
00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:39.359
Miriam was killed. Remember the cordless phone that was found

367
00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:41.920
next to Miriam's body on the floor. A check of

368
00:17:41.960 --> 00:17:44.599
her phone records found that the last phone call that

369
00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:48.400
Miriam received was on Friday at ten ten pm, her

370
00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:51.759
friend Mary Dixon called her from Montana. The two women

371
00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:54.880
chatted for twenty five minutes when Mary suddenly heard a

372
00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:58.119
noise that sounded like a dish or glass breaking. Mary

373
00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:01.279
heard her friend exclaim, oh my God. That was followed

374
00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:04.440
by noises that could have been labored breathing or moaning.

375
00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:07.119
Although at the time Mary thought there was just some

376
00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:09.440
sort of problem with a phone line, there had been

377
00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:12.799
a snowstorm that day. After all, Mary hung up after

378
00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:15.480
a minute and called back, but she got a busy signal.

379
00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:18.119
She tried again the next morning, this time getting the

380
00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:21.480
answering machine. Mary didn't realize what had happened until the

381
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:25.960
police contacted her after checking Miriam's phone records. Imagine her

382
00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:29.000
whoror when she realized that Miriam was shot and killed

383
00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:30.559
while she was speaking to her.

384
00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:33.359
So that is the answer to the very astute question

385
00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:37.240
you asked earlier. So Mary didn't realize that Miriam had

386
00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:39.799
been shot. Maybe she should have, but I think she

387
00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:42.519
just thought, oh, the phone line went dead, and you know,

388
00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:44.440
didn't know what happened and couldn't get a hold of

389
00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:44.920
her after that.

390
00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:47.680
But I think I probably would have called the police.

391
00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:50.440
Yeah, she probably wished that she had.

392
00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:53.279
In hindsight, Yeah, that call had ended at ten thirty

393
00:18:53.319 --> 00:18:56.559
seven pm on Friday night, meaning that Miriam was shot

394
00:18:56.680 --> 00:18:58.319
one or two minutes before then.

395
00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:00.680
That was a big break for the police because knowing

396
00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:04.119
that if they hadn't been able to narrow down the timeline,

397
00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:06.680
it would have been much more difficult because they would

398
00:19:06.680 --> 00:19:08.680
have had like a two day window to try to

399
00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:11.119
figure out when she was killed. So knowing exactly when

400
00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:13.759
she was shot was a really important piece.

401
00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:14.079
Of the case.

402
00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:16.079
We'll be back after a break.

403
00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:26.559
Knowing the exact time of death. Let's take a more

404
00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:29.680
detailed look at Richard's timeline that evening. This is something

405
00:19:29.720 --> 00:19:31.960
that the police did to try to figure out whether

406
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:34.599
he could have committed this crime. We know that Richard

407
00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:38.039
picked up Richie around five pm. After leaving Miriam's house.

408
00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:40.680
With Richie, Richard said that he went into his office

409
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:43.559
and dictated some notes, and then he and Richie swung

410
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:46.319
through the Burger King drive through and got dinner, which

411
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:49.279
they took back to Richard's house, arriving there between six

412
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:52.960
thirty and seven pm. After eating, Richard called Miriam at

413
00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.400
seven o'clock to let her know that he had decided

414
00:19:55.400 --> 00:19:57.799
to head south for the weekend to see his family

415
00:19:57.839 --> 00:19:59.720
in the Downingtown area, about.

416
00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:01.920
A three hour drive on a good day. He said.

417
00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:05.119
He then began packing for the trip. Richard's friend Dwayne,

418
00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:07.920
the one who would see Miriam's body through the kitchen

419
00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:11.000
window a couple days later, called Richard's cell phone at

420
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:14.880
seven seventeen pm. Richard told Dwayne he was leaving soon

421
00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:17.119
to go see his family. Dwayne told him to be

422
00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:20.440
careful because the roads were snowy and slippery. It had

423
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:23.799
snowed earlier that day, with somewhere between three to eight

424
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:27.559
inches of accumulation, depending on which part of central Pennsylvania

425
00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:30.359
you were in. Although the snow had ended around noon,

426
00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:33.480
the roads were still not great. Richard claimed that he

427
00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:36.200
and Richie left for the trip south around nine thirty

428
00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:39.119
PM and that it was slow going due to the roads.

429
00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:42.680
Sometime around eleven PM, although Richard wasn't sure of the

430
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:46.039
exact time, Richie got hungry and had to use the restroom,

431
00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:49.240
so they stopped at the McDonald's in Lewisbourg. On a

432
00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:52.119
good day, Louisbourg would only be a forty five minute

433
00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:56.240
drive from Richard's home. After driving another fifteen miles, Richard

434
00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:58.519
decided that they should find a hotel for the night.

435
00:20:58.839 --> 00:21:01.799
He was tired, having been up early that morning for surgery,

436
00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:05.359
and the drive on the icy roads was stressful. Richard

437
00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:08.200
called his sister at eleven twenty four pm to let

438
00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:11.720
her know, but then drove another forty five miles to Harrisburg.

439
00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:15.039
Because there were no decent hotels until then, he stopped

440
00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:18.079
at the Sheridan Inn in Harrisburg around twelve twenty am,

441
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:20.559
but there was a busload of people checking in at

442
00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:22.880
that time, so they drove a bit further to a

443
00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:25.119
Hampton Inn, where they checked in for the night. An

444
00:21:25.160 --> 00:21:28.200
employee of the Sheridan confirmed that Richard had come in

445
00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:30.599
and that she advised him that the Hampton Inn might

446
00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:32.920
be a better choice because of the group that had

447
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:35.839
just arrived. In order to see if Richard's timeline would

448
00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:37.799
make it possible for him to have been the shooter,

449
00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:40.480
the best thing to look at is the eleven twenty

450
00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:43.440
four pm phone call to his sister, which was forty

451
00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:46.799
eight minutes after Miriam was shot. While his exact location

452
00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:49.400
at the time of that call couldn't be determined, the

453
00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:52.359
cell tower data shows that he was somewhere between the

454
00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:55.279
city of White Deer, which is just north of Louisbourg,

455
00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:58.799
and Selinsgrove. If the roads had been fine, that would

456
00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:01.599
mean that he was between twenty five and forty six

457
00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:04.720
minutes away from Miriam's house. We know that the roads

458
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:07.359
were not fine, but even if Richard had been driving

459
00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:10.839
at sixty percent of a normal speed, it certainly would

460
00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:13.519
have been feasible for him to have shot Miriam and

461
00:22:13.640 --> 00:22:15.720
be at that point on the roads at that time.

462
00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:19.359
The police did several simulations where they drove all the

463
00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:21.799
routes that Richard would have taken that night if he

464
00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:24.440
had been the killer. They started on foot from the

465
00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:27.880
tree behind Miriam's house through the gully to the tennis court,

466
00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:30.400
then to where his car would have been parked. From

467
00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.119
there they drove to the McDonald's and onto the Sheraton,

468
00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:36.279
then the Hampton Inn. They did one simulation where they

469
00:22:36.279 --> 00:22:38.920
took up a position by the tree behind Miriam's house

470
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:42.160
at exactly ten thirty five PM on a day when

471
00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:44.799
it had snowed heavily and the roads were in similar

472
00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:47.680
condition to the night that Miriam was killed. They went

473
00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:49.839
through all the steps that Richard would have gone through

474
00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:53.039
and determined that although the timeline was tight, it was

475
00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:54.240
definitely possible.

476
00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:55.559
Interesting.

477
00:22:56.039 --> 00:22:58.039
It's really nice now that we have Google Maps and

478
00:22:58.079 --> 00:22:59.359
you can look at this stuff and say, oh, it

479
00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:01.599
would have taken this amount of time or whatever. But

480
00:23:01.799 --> 00:23:04.799
in nineteen ninety nine the police had to basically try

481
00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:09.119
to recreate it and do simulation to recreate the situation

482
00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:10.000
as best they could.

483
00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:13.720
Yeah. Well, especially we having to wait for a snowy day.

484
00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:14.319
Yeah.

485
00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:17.920
I think a guy like Richard, though, hires most things

486
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:18.920
in his life out.

487
00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:20.599
Hmmm, that's a good point.

488
00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:22.599
And would he really do that with Richie in the

489
00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:23.279
car waiting.

490
00:23:23.559 --> 00:23:26.119
I mean, that's a really good question. That's really horrible

491
00:23:26.200 --> 00:23:26.640
to think about it.

492
00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:27.599
He probably would.

493
00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:31.599
But detectives wanted to interview five year old Richie, hoping

494
00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:34.000
that he could shed light on his father's movements that

495
00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:37.559
Friday night, but Richard refused. He said that Richie couldn't

496
00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:41.160
be questioned unless a child psychologist was present. For months,

497
00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:44.680
he continued to put up roadblocks ensuring the police wouldn't

498
00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:47.519
get access to his son. On Monday, the day after

499
00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:51.279
Miriam's body was discovered, Richard called the waste management company

500
00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:53.880
that normally picked up his trash and asked them to

501
00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:57.119
come by the next day. This was curious because Tuesday

502
00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:00.000
was the normal day for his garbage pick up. Anyway,

503
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:02.279
he claimed during the phone call that they had missed

504
00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:04.440
him the last couple of weeks and so that's why

505
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:07.640
he was calling. The police in this case were really smart.

506
00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:10.680
They also called his garbage hauling company and asked if

507
00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:13.839
they would keep Richard's garbage separated and turn it over

508
00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:16.720
to the police for the next few weeks, and they agreed.

509
00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:18.920
I think that was really smart of the police. And

510
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:20.960
I don't know if that's a normal thing that they

511
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:22.920
do during an investigation.

512
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:24.400
Like this sometimes, Yes, I believe they do that.

513
00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:28.319
Yeah, it makes sense. Searching through his garbage, investigators found

514
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:31.680
some empty containers of super glue, a small piece of wire,

515
00:24:31.880 --> 00:24:34.759
and a rifle barrel with holes drilled through it. The wire,

516
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:38.319
it's not at all suspicious. The wire seemed similar to

517
00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:40.839
material that was used to make the silencer that they

518
00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:43.480
found at the scene. The holes in the rifle barrel

519
00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:46.440
were very similar to those drilled in the silencer as well,

520
00:24:46.680 --> 00:24:49.720
almost like the rifle barrel had been used to practice

521
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:51.400
the construction of the silencer.

522
00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:55.160
Really dumb to throw those things into your own trash.

523
00:24:55.039 --> 00:24:58.359
Yes, very dumb. When police later searched Richard's home, they

524
00:24:58.359 --> 00:25:01.839
found a workshop containing materi burials similar to those used

525
00:25:01.880 --> 00:25:05.160
in the silencer. Richard, however, was known to work on

526
00:25:05.240 --> 00:25:07.799
guns as a hobby, so the presence of tools and

527
00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:10.000
parts wasn't damning on its own.

528
00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:13.119
Richard had an explanation for why there may have been

529
00:25:13.160 --> 00:25:16.160
a match between materials found in his workshop and material

530
00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:19.319
used to make the silencer. On January twenty third, about

531
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:22.559
a week after Miriam was killed, Richard contacted the police.

532
00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:25.799
He said that when he came back home after being away,

533
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:28.680
he could tell someone had been in his house. He

534
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:31.480
said that lights were on, which he said he was

535
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:33.880
sure had been turned off when he left, and some

536
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:37.200
things had been moved around from their usual spot. The

537
00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:39.680
police asked if he wanted to file a report, but

538
00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:42.720
he declined. It seemed that his intent was to ensure

539
00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:46.200
the police knew that perhaps someone else had access to

540
00:25:46.279 --> 00:25:46.960
his workshop.

541
00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:50.039
So basically, he's trying to make the story that someone

542
00:25:50.119 --> 00:25:53.359
broke into his house, built a silencer in his workshop,

543
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:55.880
and then used it to kill his wife, apparently to

544
00:25:55.920 --> 00:25:56.480
frame him.

545
00:25:56.680 --> 00:25:59.440
Well, if you were going to frame someone, I think

546
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:00.359
that is a good idea.

547
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:01.039
Yeah.

548
00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:03.799
While the police suspected Richard from the beginning, they didn't

549
00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:06.480
have much to go on. There was no physical evidence

550
00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:09.319
tying Richard to the scene. All they had were shoeprints

551
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:13.079
that were much bigger than Richard's shoe size, a cigarette

552
00:26:13.079 --> 00:26:16.400
butt with someone else's DNA, and a homemade silencer with

553
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:19.119
some hairs on it that belonged to someone else. Do

554
00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:21.160
you have any more information about these hairs that were

555
00:26:21.160 --> 00:26:21.960
on the silencer?

556
00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:24.599
No, other than that they were able to test for

557
00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:27.720
DNA from those hairs, because sometimes with a hair you

558
00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:30.200
can test for DNA, like if the root is there.

559
00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:33.279
Other times you can't. They must have had enough to test,

560
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:35.200
but that's that's all I know. It wasn't a match

561
00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:35.720
for Richard.

562
00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:39.039
So we know that it's cold, it's wintertime. The shooter

563
00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:41.440
would have had a hat on, and it would have

564
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:44.599
made it less likely for hairs to fall right one

565
00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:47.240
the cigarette pot that was right there at the scene

566
00:26:47.319 --> 00:26:49.839
with someone else's DNA on it. I mean that seems

567
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:53.799
like it's exculpatory evidence right there, right, I mean, yeah.

568
00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:57.440
Six weeks went by without much progress. On March first,

569
00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:00.400
the case took a strange turn when a mysterious letter

570
00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:04.240
arrived at the office of George Lupley, Richard's attorney. The letter,

571
00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:07.599
written in block letters using a pencil, read in part quote,

572
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:10.960
I shot Miriam. The Lord ordered me to harvest the

573
00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:15.319
wicked racist ones of this town. It was signed soldier

574
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:19.640
of God, soldier of a quality, soldier of death. Well

575
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:22.759
that's strange. The letter was baffling, to say the least.

576
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:25.920
No one had ever accused Miriam of being a racist.

577
00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:28.279
Was it somehow tied to the fact that she had

578
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:31.480
a Lebanese background, even though she was a devout Catholic.

579
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:35.400
Maybe someone saw her Arabic ethnicity and thought she was Muslim.

580
00:27:35.720 --> 00:27:37.680
Did they have a hate crime on their hands? Or

581
00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:40.559
was this just an attempt at diverting the police from

582
00:27:40.599 --> 00:27:43.559
the real killer. Or maybe it was just a crackpot

583
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:47.640
who sent the letter wanting to be part of the story. Crackpot.

584
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:52.200
There were no discernible fingerpt prints on either the envelope

585
00:27:52.279 --> 00:27:54.640
or the letter, and no DNA was found on the

586
00:27:54.680 --> 00:27:58.359
stamp or the envelope flap. There was a tiny hair

587
00:27:58.519 --> 00:28:02.079
stuck in the envelope flap though it was tested for DNA,

588
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:05.519
but it didn't match Richard's DNA. It didn't match the

589
00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:08.279
DNA from the cigarette butt either or.

590
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:10.519
The hair that was found on the silencer. So now

591
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:13.440
we have like three different DNA samples.

592
00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:16.720
Wow. So two more months went by. In early May,

593
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:20.359
another letter arrived at Attorney Lepley's office. It was written

594
00:28:20.359 --> 00:28:23.079
in the same block letters as the first one, and

595
00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:26.400
this letter, the writer claimed that he had a higher

596
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:30.119
IQ than everyone in the police force, spoke several languages,

597
00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:33.839
and had several advanced degrees. The letter seemed intent on

598
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:37.240
convincing the police that Richard Illis was not their man.

599
00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:40.319
It said, quote, doctor Illis could not have been the

600
00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:44.240
killer of his evil wife. It went on to explain, quote,

601
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:46.519
I had free access to his home while he was

602
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:49.720
on vacations and used many of his supplies to fabricate

603
00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:53.559
my equipment. Oh there we have it, Yes, exactly again.

604
00:28:53.599 --> 00:28:56.640
The letter was signed Soldier of God, Soldier of Equality,

605
00:28:56.759 --> 00:28:59.640
Soldier of Death. The letter seemed like a thinly veiled

606
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:03.559
attempt at framing doctor Inche Zama, who was Richard's partner

607
00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:07.920
in cardiothoracic surgery at Williamsport Hospital. Doctor Zama fit the

608
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:11.440
description to a tee. He had several advanced degrees and

609
00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:14.640
was fluent in multiple languages. He was friends with both

610
00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:17.519
Richard and Miriam, so he could have had access to

611
00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:21.279
Richard's home while he was out of town. Investigators wondered

612
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:24.960
if perhaps doctor Zama had been involved with Miriam, maybe

613
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:27.920
they had a fling, or maybe doctor Zama hit on

614
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:31.400
her and was rejected. The police questioned doctor Zama and

615
00:29:31.480 --> 00:29:34.119
checked on his alibi for the night of January fifteenth.

616
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:37.880
It was solid. After receiving the anonymous letters, one of

617
00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:41.000
the officers recalled seeing a book on Richard's bedside table

618
00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:43.920
during a search of his home. The book was called

619
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:49.279
they wrote their own sentences the FBI's Handwriting Analysis manual.

620
00:29:49.720 --> 00:29:52.839
Investigators got a copy of the book and inside found

621
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.640
that there was a chapter about anonymous letters. It included

622
00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:00.720
sections about the challenges presented in identifying the writer of

623
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:06.200
black letters and letters written in pencil. Interesting. By June,

624
00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:10.720
Richard appeared to be preparing to flee. His girlfriend Catherine Swayer,

625
00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:13.960
saw him reviewing some papers. When she asked, he told

626
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:16.400
her they were a list of countries with and without

627
00:30:16.759 --> 00:30:21.519
used extradition treaties. He also obtained a passport for Richie

628
00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:24.880
and bought a book titled How to Hide Your Assets

629
00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:29.000
and Disappear. This was something the police only discovered later.

630
00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:30.880
So clever, So there were.

631
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:34.039
So many of these books and other like small clues.

632
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:37.599
Do you think it's because he was entitled and he

633
00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:40.119
just didn't think that he was going to be a suspect?

634
00:30:40.279 --> 00:30:43.480
I think And I'm here, I'm like putting the Carbehore. Yeah.

635
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:45.759
I think it's pretty clear at this point that Richard

636
00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:48.160
may have had some involvement in this, But I think

637
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:50.880
he thought he was really smart guy and like thought

638
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:54.160
of everything. But obviously he missed some pretty key things

639
00:30:54.279 --> 00:30:57.799
like leaving these books on his shelf. But Richard didn't

640
00:30:57.799 --> 00:31:01.200
flee the country. Instead, he got mayor worried. Six months

641
00:31:01.240 --> 00:31:05.640
after Miriam was murdered, doctor Illis married her replacement, Catherine Swawyer.

642
00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:07.920
Well, it's nice he didn't have to worry about that

643
00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:09.519
pesky divorce, isn't it.

644
00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:10.880
Yeah, very convenient.

645
00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:13.359
Keith is here with us, so a lot of times they.

646
00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:17.480
Just use your channeling Keith Morrison exactly. While Richard didn't

647
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:20.440
flee the country, he did leave the state. As the

648
00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:24.279
primary suspect in Miriam's murder, his reputation was in tatters.

649
00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:28.000
He interviewed for jobs around the country, but prospective employers

650
00:31:28.039 --> 00:31:31.960
would receive anonymous letters with newspaper clippings saying that doctor

651
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.640
Illis was a suspect in his first wife's slaying.

652
00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:36.440
Oh interesting, I don't know.

653
00:31:36.519 --> 00:31:38.160
I never found out who was sending.

654
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:41.119
These these letters, but I love this for him, I

655
00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:44.400
do too. Eventually, Richard did land a job in Texas,

656
00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:47.920
but then he moved again to Spokane, Washington. He couldn't

657
00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:50.079
get a job as a heart surgeon, though, so he

658
00:31:50.119 --> 00:31:54.240
opened a plastic surgery clinic instead. Around this time, Illis

659
00:31:54.279 --> 00:31:57.559
spoke to the press about the lycoming County DA publicly

660
00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:01.440
naming him their prime suspect. Said quote, he can call

661
00:32:01.480 --> 00:32:03.559
me whatever he wants, but this isn't going to make

662
00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:05.720
me the person who did this. I could not have

663
00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:08.599
something to do with such a horrible, horrible thing. Yes,

664
00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:12.000
I was separated from my wife. We were seeking a divorce,

665
00:32:12.200 --> 00:32:15.400
but God, she was the natural mother of my only child.

666
00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:17.519
He went on to talk about how being under a

667
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:21.480
cloud of suspicion affected his life, quote, I'm horrified by it,

668
00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:23.839
and I'll tell you why. For five years, I was

669
00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:28.119
considered the doctor in Williamsport. Everybody loved me. Everybody who

670
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:30.920
now has something bad to say about me once considered

671
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:33.839
it important to be friends with me. With no apparent

672
00:32:33.880 --> 00:32:36.359
progress in the case, Miriam's family put up a two

673
00:32:36.440 --> 00:32:39.839
hundred and fifty thousand dollars reward for information leading to

674
00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:43.160
an arrest and conviction. In the summer of nineteen ninety nine,

675
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:46.480
the police got a significant break. A man named Matthew

676
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:49.119
McKay was looking for minnows in a creek to use

677
00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:52.400
as fishing bait. He happened upon a small rifle lying

678
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:55.480
in the creek bed less than twenty feet from the road.

679
00:32:55.559 --> 00:32:58.000
This was about two and a half miles southwest of

680
00:32:58.039 --> 00:33:01.400
where Miriam was killed. Seeing the gun was loaded, McKay

681
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:03.960
removed the clip and took the rifle to the police.

682
00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:06.440
There was no DNA found on the gun and the

683
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:10.079
serial number had been drilled out. Many times criminals will

684
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:12.599
use a file to scrape the serial number off of

685
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:15.480
a gun, but the police can sometimes still make out

686
00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:18.960
the number by using acid etching. Drilling out the numbers

687
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:22.160
with a drill press, however, made it impossible to determine

688
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:22.960
the serial number.

689
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:25.400
Here you are giving tips to murderers again.

690
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:28.920
No, the weapon was somewhat unique. Though the barrel of

691
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:31.200
the rifle had been sawed off and there was a

692
00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:34.319
set screw screwed into the top of the barrel. It

693
00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:37.279
fit perfectly with the homemade silencer they had found on

694
00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:41.359
the tennis court. This, along with ballistics testing, confirmed that

695
00:33:41.480 --> 00:33:45.160
they did indeed have the murder weapon. Firearms experts were

696
00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:47.480
brought in to try and determine what type of gun

697
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:50.279
it was. Eventually they came to the conclusion that the

698
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:53.960
gun was a Savage Model twenty three D. Only sixteen

699
00:33:54.039 --> 00:33:57.759
thousand guns of that particular model had been manufactured between

700
00:33:57.799 --> 00:34:01.319
the years of nineteen thirty two and night nineteen forty nine.

701
00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:05.160
At that time, it was considered the best rifle available

702
00:34:05.200 --> 00:34:08.480
for shooting varmints such as prairie dogs and ground dogs.

703
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:13.000
Unfortunately, harry dogs and ground dogs groundhog, I get confused,

704
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:17.239
they're different, I guessed I.

705
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:18.800
Get confused to that also.

706
00:34:19.559 --> 00:34:22.719
Unfortunately, that was before ownership records were kept, and so

707
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:25.360
there was no way to trace the origins of the rifle.

708
00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:28.519
It was an important find, but it seemed like another

709
00:34:28.599 --> 00:34:29.039
dead end.

710
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:31.079
The Richard had a gun collection.

711
00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:34.400
Yes, he was known to He had quite a few guns,

712
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:35.519
and he was very good and.

713
00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:37.519
He liked antique guns.

714
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:41.280
He I don't know if he liked antique guns in particular. Yeah,

715
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:43.599
he had a lot of guns. I think he had

716
00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:46.239
some old, some new, and he liked working on them too.

717
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:49.280
He was somewhat of an amateur gunsmith. So the gun

718
00:34:49.320 --> 00:34:52.679
seemed like a dead end Until January of two thousand,

719
00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:56.199
a year after Miriam's death, investigators were trying to learn

720
00:34:56.280 --> 00:34:59.159
more about Richard Illis as a person. Who was he,

721
00:34:59.320 --> 00:35:02.039
what was his up like, anything that might give them

722
00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:05.519
a clue. Richard's friend Dwayne Van Fleet told the police

723
00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:08.280
that Richard had confided in him once about his father.

724
00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:11.119
The man that Richard had known as Uncle Joe, the

725
00:35:11.159 --> 00:35:13.639
one who taught him to hunt, had actually turned out

726
00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:17.760
to be Richard's real father. Unfortunately, Joe Kowalski had died

727
00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:21.480
in nineteen ninety eight, so the police couldn't interview him. Instead,

728
00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:25.119
they talked to Joe's sister, a woman named Jean Maltesta.

729
00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:27.559
Jean told them that her brother Joe had been a

730
00:35:27.559 --> 00:35:30.719
gunsmith in the military and had continued to work on

731
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:33.760
guns whose entire life he had been close to. Richard

732
00:35:33.880 --> 00:35:37.880
had taught him everything he knew about gunsmithing, shooting, and hunting.

733
00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:41.000
When Joe died in nineteen ninety eight, he left most

734
00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:44.920
of his guns to Richard. During the visit, Jean pulled

735
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:47.880
out a photo album and showed the detective's old pictures

736
00:35:47.880 --> 00:35:50.480
of Joe. The detectives did a double take when she

737
00:35:50.599 --> 00:35:53.679
showed them a picture of Joe dated nineteen forty seven.

738
00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:56.559
In the photo, he was holding a dead groundhog in

739
00:35:56.599 --> 00:35:58.280
one hand or maybe it was a prairie dog, I

740
00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:01.000
don't know, and in the other he was holding a rifle.

741
00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:04.280
It looked an awful lot like a Savage Model twenty

742
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:07.920
three D. Although it couldn't be definitively determined that the

743
00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:10.400
gun in the photo was the same one used to

744
00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:13.199
kill Miriam, it was an important piece of the puzzle

745
00:36:13.239 --> 00:36:16.400
connecting Richard to the crime. They were getting close, but

746
00:36:16.519 --> 00:36:20.000
it still wasn't enough to make and arrest. The police

747
00:36:20.039 --> 00:36:22.840
had made numerous attempts at interviewing Richie to get his

748
00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:25.559
recollection from the night in question, but they had been

749
00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:29.119
blocked by Richard and his lawyer every step of the way. Finally,

750
00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:32.280
an agreement was reached and Richie was interviewed in September

751
00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:35.400
of two thousand. It had been twenty months since his

752
00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:39.679
mom was killed, and Richie was now almost seven years old. Unfortunately,

753
00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:42.320
he wasn't much help. Any memories he may have had

754
00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:45.760
of that night had faded with time. The police speculated

755
00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:48.800
that perhaps doctor Illis had drugged Richie that night to

756
00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:51.159
ensure that he slept while his dad was waiting in

757
00:36:51.199 --> 00:36:54.360
the woods to take his shot. Unfortunately, there's no way

758
00:36:54.400 --> 00:36:57.159
to know for sure. We'll be back after a break.

759
00:37:04.760 --> 00:37:07.960
Finally, in December two thousand two, the police convinced the

760
00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:11.639
Lycoming County DA that there was enough evidence to make

761
00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:14.960
a case against Richard. An arrest warrant was issued and

762
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:18.960
officers flew to Spokane, Washington. It had been almost four

763
00:37:19.159 --> 00:37:22.840
years since Miriam was murdered. The police had been warned

764
00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:25.559
by Richard's acquaintances that he carried a gun with him

765
00:37:25.599 --> 00:37:28.400
at all times, so they were very cautious in making

766
00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:31.719
the arrest. He was taken into custody without incident and

767
00:37:31.880 --> 00:37:35.920
extradited back to Pennsylvania. A search of Richard's home revealed

768
00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:39.599
some compelling new evidence. First, some of the guns they

769
00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:42.320
found matched the list of guns known to have been

770
00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:45.480
owned by Joe Kowalski. They had gotten this list from

771
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:49.239
Joe's sister Jane. This confirmed that Joe had indeed given

772
00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:52.159
several of his guns to Richard when he died. Even

773
00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:55.960
more interesting was the unfinished manuscript found on Richard's computer.

774
00:37:56.360 --> 00:37:59.840
It seems that doctor Illis had aspirations of becoming an author,

775
00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:03.800
although he had only completed fourteen pages of his book.

776
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:05.440
You're very smirky over there.

777
00:38:05.559 --> 00:38:07.840
I'm just I'm jealous that you get to read this part,

778
00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:10.519
because I just think this part is really interesting.

779
00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:15.159
The book was called Heartshot, the Murder of the Doctor's Wife.

780
00:38:15.559 --> 00:38:18.360
In the pages that Richard had drafted, he described his

781
00:38:18.400 --> 00:38:22.239
life with Miriam, and then, without admitting that he himself

782
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:25.239
was the killer, puts himself in the mind of the killer.

783
00:38:25.480 --> 00:38:28.559
He describes from the killer's point of view, his actions

784
00:38:28.599 --> 00:38:31.519
and thought processes. So this is kind of like when

785
00:38:31.639 --> 00:38:32.599
OJ wrote.

786
00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:35.760
Yes, it's very much like that before OJ wrote that book,

787
00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:37.239
but it reminded me a lot of that.

788
00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:41.280
For example, he wrote, quote the killer knew the investigation

789
00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:44.719
would be difficult for the authorities, and that he knew

790
00:38:44.840 --> 00:38:48.400
quote his actions would confound them and lead them down

791
00:38:48.440 --> 00:38:52.679
the wrong path. Multiple times. He thought really highly of it.

792
00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:53.559
He really bit me.

793
00:38:53.880 --> 00:38:57.760
He describes patiently waiting outside of Miriam's window on seven

794
00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:01.119
different nights prior to the actual shooting, waiting for the

795
00:39:01.239 --> 00:39:04.559
right moment to present itself. He describes how he steadied

796
00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:07.679
himself against a tree while Miriam was on the phone,

797
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:10.920
and leaving a cigarette butt in the snow just before

798
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:15.440
the shooting. So when his book the character is named Miriam.

799
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:19.440
Yes, I believe he referred to Miriam as the character's

800
00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:20.119
name in the book.

801
00:39:20.159 --> 00:39:20.880
So I don't know.

802
00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:23.760
It's like, is it fiction or nonfiction? I don't really know,

803
00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:26.159
but I think it's intended to be fictions.

804
00:39:26.199 --> 00:39:29.679
Only fourteen pages. Yeah, after the shooting, he wrote about

805
00:39:29.880 --> 00:39:33.000
walking to the portal of death, meaning the window to

806
00:39:33.159 --> 00:39:36.280
confirm that no follow up shot was needed. Then he

807
00:39:36.360 --> 00:39:39.599
describes the feeling he had after the deed was done. Quote,

808
00:39:39.880 --> 00:39:42.119
the killer made his way to the warmth of his

809
00:39:42.199 --> 00:39:46.480
waiting car and felt an almost orgasmic catharsis as he

810
00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:51.559
congratulated himself on another mission well done. After all, to him,

811
00:39:51.800 --> 00:39:54.960
killing was better than sex. Well that left me a

812
00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:57.639
little speechless. We're both sitting here with their mouth singing

813
00:39:57.719 --> 00:39:58.480
open like that.

814
00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:02.960
Wow, you can tell he really fancied himself a wordsmith too,

815
00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:07.719
write the almost orgasmic catharsis. I mean, oh boy, it's.

816
00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:11.880
Gross that he was gloating over murdering anyone, let alone

817
00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:14.480
the wife, his wife and mother of his child.

818
00:40:14.599 --> 00:40:16.559
Yeah, it really does remind me a lot of the

819
00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:18.199
OJ writing the book.

820
00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:20.000
If I did it It's almost.

821
00:40:19.719 --> 00:40:23.559
Like he really wanted people to know about how smart

822
00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:26.400
he was and how brilliant he was. But he thought

823
00:40:26.440 --> 00:40:29.159
that by writing it as like a fictional portrayal, that

824
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:32.119
that would be okay in some respects, or that people

825
00:40:32.119 --> 00:40:35.199
wouldn't be able to piece those things together. It's just

826
00:40:35.239 --> 00:40:36.920
it's kind of bizarre, definitely.

827
00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:40.920
Although Richard had been arrested, it was still largely a

828
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:44.480
circumstantial case. He was the only person with a motive,

829
00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:47.920
and they could show that the timeline was plausible. The

830
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:51.119
gun being tracked back to his father, Joe Kowalski, was

831
00:40:51.159 --> 00:40:54.760
a solid piece of supporting evidence, as was the unfinished

832
00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:57.960
manuscript on his computer, but still there was no physical

833
00:40:58.039 --> 00:41:01.360
evidence linking him to the crime scene. In March of

834
00:41:01.360 --> 00:41:04.159
two thousand and three, as the prosecution was preparing for

835
00:41:04.239 --> 00:41:07.039
a trial, a few police officers went to do some

836
00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:10.280
additional searches in the area where the rifle had been found.

837
00:41:10.519 --> 00:41:12.280
Less than a quarter of a mile from where the

838
00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:15.360
gun had been found, they came upon a pair of sneakers,

839
00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:19.440
size fourteen rebox sneakers. To be exact, the tread pattern

840
00:41:19.480 --> 00:41:22.559
matched the shoe prints found at the scene exactly. There

841
00:41:22.599 --> 00:41:24.320
was a small hair on one of the shoes that

842
00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:28.760
was tested. Disappointingly, the DNA didn't match Richard, and a

843
00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:32.840
last dish attempt to connect the evidence to Richard, investigators

844
00:41:32.840 --> 00:41:36.360
decided to compare the DNA to Richie's. It wasn't an

845
00:41:36.440 --> 00:41:40.199
exact match, but it was pretty close. Ninety seven percent

846
00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:43.360
of the population could be excluded from matching the hair,

847
00:41:43.639 --> 00:41:47.280
but Richie could not be excluded. It wasn't definitive, but

848
00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:49.880
it was the first evidence that could at least come

849
00:41:49.960 --> 00:41:52.119
close to connecting Richard to the crime scene.

850
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:55.119
It's kind of bizarre that they found these shoes over

851
00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:56.840
four years after the murder.

852
00:41:56.960 --> 00:41:59.079
And I know it's a wooded area, but still.

853
00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:01.199
In years to pick up this gun, or not years

854
00:42:01.239 --> 00:42:02.800
to pick up the gun. The gun was found like

855
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:05.679
six months after, right, Yeah, but the shoes, Yeah, Like,

856
00:42:05.719 --> 00:42:07.239
why wouldn't he have achieved them?

857
00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:09.400
I don't know why he Yeah, I mean, not only

858
00:42:09.400 --> 00:42:11.719
did he not retrieve them, but he left them in

859
00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:14.920
places that weren't that far from where the shooting took place.

860
00:42:15.320 --> 00:42:18.719
Richard's trial finally began in January two thousand and four,

861
00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:22.440
just over five years after Miriam was killed. The prosecution

862
00:42:22.599 --> 00:42:26.119
laid out their case. Richard planned every last detail. He

863
00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:28.559
planned to have an alibi by being out of town

864
00:42:28.599 --> 00:42:31.440
with his son. He planted false evidence at the scene

865
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:35.199
with someone else's DNA. He bought size fourteen shoes to wear.

866
00:42:35.559 --> 00:42:39.599
He wrote anonymous letters pointing the finger at other suspects. Ritchie,

867
00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:41.960
now ten years old, took the stand for the defense.

868
00:42:42.320 --> 00:42:45.480
It was a dramatic moment, but ultimately had little impact

869
00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:48.559
either way, as his memories of that weekend were hazy

870
00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:52.320
at best. He vaguely remembered seeing his aunt Sue that weekend,

871
00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:55.559
and he remembered seeing police cars at his mother's house

872
00:42:55.760 --> 00:42:58.760
when they returned, but that was about it. The trial

873
00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:02.199
took over four weeks. The jury deliberated for three days.

874
00:43:02.599 --> 00:43:04.800
At one point they were deadlocked and sent a note

875
00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:07.519
to the judge. As in so many other cases, the

876
00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:10.599
judge asked them to keep deliberating, and soon they came

877
00:43:10.679 --> 00:43:13.880
back with a verdict. They found Richard Illis guilty of

878
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:17.199
first degree murder. Later, it was revealed that at the

879
00:43:17.239 --> 00:43:19.639
point the jury had been deadlocked, it was ten in

880
00:43:19.719 --> 00:43:23.159
favor of guilty and two who voted not guilty. Eventually,

881
00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:26.239
the two holdouts were convinced it may have been mostly

882
00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:30.000
circumstantial evidence, but there was a lot of circumstantial evidence.

883
00:43:30.599 --> 00:43:33.679
At the end of February two thousand four, after his conviction,

884
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:38.079
but before his sentencing hearing, Richard attempted suicide while in prison.

885
00:43:38.519 --> 00:43:40.760
He used the end of a paper clip to puncture

886
00:43:40.760 --> 00:43:42.960
a vein on the back of his left hand, and

887
00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:46.039
then used part of a plastic ballpoint pen to keep

888
00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:49.280
the wound open. He lost about a leader of blood

889
00:43:49.320 --> 00:43:52.880
before being discovered by another inmate. The human body has

890
00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:55.639
about five leaders of blood, and most people can lose

891
00:43:55.719 --> 00:43:59.239
up to two leaders before passing out. Losing three leaders

892
00:43:59.360 --> 00:44:00.599
is generally fatal.

893
00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:03.119
Wow, As a way.

894
00:44:02.920 --> 00:44:05.440
Of taking your own life, that seems like a really

895
00:44:05.559 --> 00:44:08.599
you would have to be really, really determined to do

896
00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:11.280
that because it was the main on the back of

897
00:44:11.320 --> 00:44:14.639
his hand, which I'm sure doesn't bleed super quickly, and

898
00:44:14.679 --> 00:44:16.679
you would have had to hold that open for a

899
00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:18.960
really long time to lose that amount of blood.

900
00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:22.159
It mads possessions are searched all the time, I think

901
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:24.760
to keep them safe and keep them from taking their

902
00:44:24.760 --> 00:44:27.400
own life. But yeah, that's a pretty creative method.

903
00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:30.440
A suicide note was found in Richard's cell, but the

904
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:33.400
contents have never been released. He was moved to a

905
00:44:33.400 --> 00:44:37.320
mental institution for a time, delaying his sentencing hearing. At

906
00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:42.159
his sentencing, Miriam's brother, Joseph Zambi, addressed Richard directly, quote,

907
00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:44.960
we took you into our lives, we gave you our sister,

908
00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:48.519
and you murdered her. Richard interrupted him, No, No, I

909
00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:52.519
did not, Joe. Joseph replied, yes, you did. When given

910
00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:55.360
the chance to speak, Richard said, quote, I have been

911
00:44:55.400 --> 00:44:58.159
convicted of this, but the conviction is wrong. I had

912
00:44:58.199 --> 00:45:00.960
absolutely nothing to do with it. He was sentenced to

913
00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:05.360
life in prison with no possibility of parole. Rest in peace, Miriam,

914
00:45:05.559 --> 00:45:07.920
and best wishes to Richie, who would be thirty one

915
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:11.119
years old by now. Custody of Richie was granted to

916
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:14.280
relatives of Miriam. I haven't been able to find anything

917
00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:16.719
out about his life today, but I certainly hope that

918
00:45:16.760 --> 00:45:17.679
he's doing well.

919
00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:18.559
Yeah, for sure.

920
00:45:18.880 --> 00:45:20.800
Like so many of these cases that we talk about,

921
00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:23.800
one of the biggest tragedies is that a child lost

922
00:45:23.880 --> 00:45:27.360
both his mother and his father. Richard has now exhausted

923
00:45:27.400 --> 00:45:29.760
the appeals process and will spend the rest of his

924
00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:33.320
life in prison. He has continued to proclaim his innocence.

925
00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:36.639
Several articles and TV shows have referred to this as

926
00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:39.960
almost the perfect murder, and I originally thought that as well.

927
00:45:40.039 --> 00:45:43.400
I think the false evidence that he planted, the DNA

928
00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:45.360
that he planted at the scene in the form of

929
00:45:45.400 --> 00:45:48.440
a cigarette butt, and the hair on the silencer, they

930
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:51.239
all seem kind of ingenious at first, but ultimately I

931
00:45:51.280 --> 00:45:53.920
think a lot of that proved to be his own downfall.

932
00:45:54.119 --> 00:45:56.960
I'm curious what you think. Was it almost the perfect crime?

933
00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:00.760
I'm planting this cigarette but was pretty genius. The timeline

934
00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:02.760
that he constructed was pretty good, and I think the

935
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:05.719
snowy weather kind of made it a little questionable as

936
00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:08.519
to whether he could have gotten back right. And the

937
00:46:08.599 --> 00:46:11.119
size fourteen shoes. I don't know if I saw this

938
00:46:11.239 --> 00:46:13.239
on a movie or a TV show one time, but

939
00:46:13.320 --> 00:46:15.519
I thought, if you, like, if you because you have

940
00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:17.559
like a size nine feet, if you put a size

941
00:46:17.559 --> 00:46:20.960
fourteen shoe on, I thought that police could tell from

942
00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:25.599
your the footprints, Yeah, that the shoe didn't really fit correctly,

943
00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:28.639
because you know, you wouldn't leave like a complete impression

944
00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:29.079
or something.

945
00:46:29.159 --> 00:46:31.199
Yeah. I did a little research on that actually, and

946
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:34.719
they can't necessarily tell for sure that you're wearing a

947
00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:38.280
size shoe that's different, but the prints can look less

948
00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:41.599
even or or more sloppy if you're wearing shoes that

949
00:46:41.639 --> 00:46:43.920
aren't the right size. If they can see you walk,

950
00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:46.119
like if they have like a video and they see

951
00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:49.000
you walking and you're in different size shoes, that definitely

952
00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:51.920
looks different, Like your your gait would be sort of

953
00:46:51.920 --> 00:46:54.199
different if you were wearing the wrong size shoes. But

954
00:46:54.519 --> 00:46:56.400
with shoe prints, it's sort of like hit or miss.

955
00:46:56.400 --> 00:46:59.440
I think you can maybe tell that they might be different,

956
00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:00.000
but not for shoes.

957
00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:03.000
I just had an idea for a true crime fiction book.

958
00:47:03.119 --> 00:47:05.320
If any of you guys write it, I will sue.

959
00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:10.079
But hairdresser who is a serial killer, Oh, because she

960
00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:12.840
has access to all this hair. What do you think

961
00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:15.159
brilliant plant hair are all over?

962
00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:17.360
Oh man, you're really brilliant.

963
00:47:17.400 --> 00:47:20.239
But I bet that forensically you could see that the

964
00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:22.880
hair could be like it was a fresh, hot cut.

965
00:47:23.079 --> 00:47:24.039
Yeah. Probably. So.

966
00:47:24.519 --> 00:47:27.000
The cigarette butt thing, I think is an interesting one

967
00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:29.280
because when I first read about it, I thought, oh, yeah,

968
00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:32.239
that was really smart too. But if you think about it,

969
00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:34.559
like if you're you're standing in the woods outside of

970
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:37.199
a house getting ready to shoot somebody. Are you really

971
00:47:37.239 --> 00:47:39.039
going to be like smoking a cigarette?

972
00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:40.639
Well, absolutely, I think so.

973
00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:43.840
I wouldn't think so, because the smoke could like people

974
00:47:43.960 --> 00:47:46.519
might see the smoke or or smell the smoke, and

975
00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:50.159
it might alert somebody that you're standing there. And also,

976
00:47:50.679 --> 00:47:53.360
the investigators didn't find any ashes near the tree, which

977
00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:55.360
I thought was interesting too, because it was on a

978
00:47:55.400 --> 00:47:58.800
snowy surface, right, and so if someone had actually smoked

979
00:47:58.800 --> 00:48:01.519
a cigarette there would probably be on the snow and

980
00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:03.320
they didn't find that, So that was kind of a

981
00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:06.159
clue to them that this was just planted there and

982
00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:07.760
not actually smoked at the scene.

983
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:10.400
There would be plenty of other items that you could

984
00:48:10.440 --> 00:48:12.519
leave at the scene with someone else's DNA, like a

985
00:48:12.559 --> 00:48:15.079
glove you found on the side of the road or right.

986
00:48:15.159 --> 00:48:15.400
You know.

987
00:48:15.719 --> 00:48:17.719
The one thing that baffles me a little bit is

988
00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:21.480
why Richard left the silencer at the scene, because I think,

989
00:48:21.639 --> 00:48:23.639
like the cigarette butt and the shoes, I think that

990
00:48:23.800 --> 00:48:26.519
was pretty smart on his part to try to point

991
00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:29.280
the investigators in a different direction. But the silencer kind

992
00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:31.760
of baffles me because he was known to have.

993
00:48:31.719 --> 00:48:32.559
Worked on guns.

994
00:48:32.599 --> 00:48:36.000
He had a lab in his house or a workshop,

995
00:48:36.280 --> 00:48:39.440
he had the materials, So why leave the silencer there?

996
00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:40.880
That seems like really kind.

997
00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:43.079
Of an accident. Maybe he forgot I.

998
00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:46.119
Mean it was thrown over a fence in the tennis court,

999
00:48:46.239 --> 00:48:49.239
so he pretty clearly intentionally left it there. But that

1000
00:48:49.280 --> 00:48:50.679
one seems like a big.

1001
00:48:50.480 --> 00:48:51.159
Mistake to me.

1002
00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:55.000
I think sometimes criminals don't realize the extent of the

1003
00:48:55.039 --> 00:48:56.840
search that's done after a crime.

1004
00:48:57.239 --> 00:48:59.480
The other interesting piece of evidence for me is the

1005
00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:03.360
anonymous letters, because those made it seem just so obvious

1006
00:49:03.440 --> 00:49:07.079
that he was ridiculous, Like especially in the letter, you know,

1007
00:49:07.119 --> 00:49:09.679
he writes, there's the way doctor Illis could have done this.

1008
00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:12.440
Like, yeah, that was super super dumb.

1009
00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:16.960
I think ultimately Richard had a massive ego and he

1010
00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:19.800
thought that he could outsmart everyone, and I think he

1011
00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:22.599
over he overthought it, and you know, he made he

1012
00:49:22.639 --> 00:49:24.880
made mistakes because he thought he was so smart.

1013
00:49:24.920 --> 00:49:25.960
He got really cocky.

1014
00:49:26.199 --> 00:49:27.800
Can I ask you an unrelated question?

1015
00:49:28.159 --> 00:49:28.480
Sure?

1016
00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:30.320
How big is your ego?

1017
00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:34.760
It's about yeap, No, I don't.

1018
00:49:35.239 --> 00:49:37.400
The other day I asked you a question. I was

1019
00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:39.719
so surprised by your answer. Do you remember? Do you

1020
00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:40.519
know what I'm talking about?

1021
00:49:40.599 --> 00:49:41.880
I can't remember exactly what.

1022
00:49:41.800 --> 00:49:44.880
I think I said. How smart. Do you think you are, like,

1023
00:49:44.920 --> 00:49:47.239
what compared to the rest of the population.

1024
00:49:48.119 --> 00:49:51.920
You said, I think I said ninety nine, and I was.

1025
00:49:51.920 --> 00:49:55.519
Like, okay, I mean you're not dumb. You're definitely not dumb.

1026
00:49:55.679 --> 00:49:58.480
Well, when I when I was thinking when you said

1027
00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:01.480
that was about like standardized tests that.

1028
00:50:01.480 --> 00:50:02.039
You might take.

1029
00:50:02.239 --> 00:50:04.639
Oh my gosh, here we go the g Matt.

1030
00:50:04.440 --> 00:50:08.400
Test or things like that, And traditionally, when I've taken

1031
00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:10.199
those tests, I'm usually like.

1032
00:50:12.320 --> 00:50:15.679
Does he sound I mean, there's cocky, but there's you know.

1033
00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:18.400
Test taking does not indicate intelligence.

1034
00:50:18.480 --> 00:50:20.360
I know, but I'm just saying that was what I

1035
00:50:20.440 --> 00:50:21.719
was really good at taking tests.

1036
00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:23.480
Some people aren't as good at taking tests.

1037
00:50:23.480 --> 00:50:28.519
I am really good at taking tests. All right, maybe

1038
00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:29.719
I'm a little cocky.

1039
00:50:29.800 --> 00:50:30.199
I don't know.

1040
00:50:31.480 --> 00:50:33.559
I think I'm pretty humble, but maybe I'm wrong.

1041
00:50:34.440 --> 00:50:36.800
I think I asked you how intelligent you were as

1042
00:50:36.800 --> 00:50:38.440
a follow up, and I can't remember what you said.

1043
00:50:38.480 --> 00:50:39.719
It was definitely, well, part.

1044
00:50:39.559 --> 00:50:43.480
Of intelligence is memory, and apparently you know you don't

1045
00:50:43.480 --> 00:50:46.800
have a very good I don't have memory. I'm just cheating.

1046
00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:49.039
I don't know. Bottom five percent.

1047
00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:50.519
We're not in.

1048
00:50:50.599 --> 00:50:54.840
The bottom five percent of intelligence. I think you're pretty

1049
00:50:54.840 --> 00:51:00.199
smart cookie.

1050
00:51:02.519 --> 00:51:05.039
Groundhogs versus prairie dogs.

1051
00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:05.960
I was hoping you were.

1052
00:51:06.039 --> 00:51:11.360
Groundhogs also are known as woodchucks, and they are on

1053
00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:13.719
the larger size. Remember at our old house, we had

1054
00:51:13.719 --> 00:51:15.960
that like stone wall, and there was I think those

1055
00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:18.840
were groundhogs, Okay, because they are like four to nine

1056
00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:22.719
pounds up to two feet long. They live in forest, edges, fields,

1057
00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:26.719
suburban areas. They're in the eastern and central United States.

1058
00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:30.800
They are known to have solitary behavior. They burrow deep

1059
00:51:30.920 --> 00:51:36.760
but relatively simple ground systems. They're quiet, they're true hibernators.

1060
00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:40.360
They are herbivores. They eat grasses and veggies.

1061
00:51:40.039 --> 00:51:41.840
And they're really good at forecasting the weather.

1062
00:51:42.119 --> 00:51:46.280
Also, they actually are not good at that at all, but.

1063
00:51:46.360 --> 00:51:48.320
Prairie dogs are. They're the ones that just pop their

1064
00:51:48.320 --> 00:51:49.599
heads upright and down.

1065
00:51:49.920 --> 00:51:52.519
Yeah. They're smaller, one to three pounds, tend to sixteen

1066
00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:55.920
inches long. Known to live in grassland lands and prairies,

1067
00:51:56.199 --> 00:51:59.719
central and western United States. They're highly social, live in

1068
00:52:00.039 --> 00:52:04.519
large colonies, extensive underground towns and tunnels. Very vocal. They

1069
00:52:04.519 --> 00:52:08.800
have chirps, sparks, and alarms. Some hibernate, some don't. They

1070
00:52:08.800 --> 00:52:13.519
are also herbivores, and they're widely known just as prairie dogs.

1071
00:52:13.559 --> 00:52:15.760
So I don't think we really have prairie dogs in

1072
00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:18.360
our area, do we is mostly like a Southern thing.

1073
00:52:18.519 --> 00:52:20.719
Yeah, and that makes sense, Like I said, like we

1074
00:52:20.800 --> 00:52:22.920
did have that. I don't know if it was one groundhog,

1075
00:52:23.480 --> 00:52:26.559
one groundhog that just kind of was always around and

1076
00:52:26.800 --> 00:52:28.360
never really saw it with anyone else.

1077
00:52:28.679 --> 00:52:30.159
Well, thank you for educating me on that.

1078
00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:33.079
You're welcome. Also, I have a story to tell. This

1079
00:52:33.159 --> 00:52:35.480
case reminded me a little bit of like a core

1080
00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:40.280
childhood memory. My dad was a hunter. You know, you

1081
00:52:40.400 --> 00:52:42.360
nor only know this story. Yeah, my dad was a hunter.

1082
00:52:42.760 --> 00:52:46.280
Hunted deer, and he had a whole closet full of

1083
00:52:46.519 --> 00:52:49.440
you know, rifles and shotguns and all sorts of things.

1084
00:52:50.119 --> 00:52:53.559
And one time there was a deer and we had

1085
00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:55.599
like a pond in our backyard and the deer, you know,

1086
00:52:55.599 --> 00:52:58.760
a beautiful deer, was like walking up towards our house

1087
00:52:58.840 --> 00:53:01.400
and my dad ran and got a shot gun and

1088
00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:03.719
he didn't break the window, but he like op tore

1089
00:53:03.760 --> 00:53:06.440
open the window and shot through the screen and I

1090
00:53:06.519 --> 00:53:08.559
believe he missed gratefully, he was.

1091
00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:11.000
In the house and shot through the window.

1092
00:53:11.159 --> 00:53:12.199
Into the back of the screen.

1093
00:53:12.320 --> 00:53:13.760
Yeah.

1094
00:53:12.760 --> 00:53:15.079
Yeah, And how old were you at this point?

1095
00:53:15.239 --> 00:53:17.159
It was I think I was pretty little, probably like

1096
00:53:17.239 --> 00:53:17.639
seven or.

1097
00:53:17.639 --> 00:53:20.280
Eight, a little traumatizing.

1098
00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:23.159
Well, you know my dad, I do.

1099
00:53:23.280 --> 00:53:25.920
I vividly remember the first time I met your dad

1100
00:53:26.599 --> 00:53:28.800
and he sat me down on the couch and I

1101
00:53:28.880 --> 00:53:31.920
had never held a gun before in my entire life.

1102
00:53:32.199 --> 00:53:35.199
And he brought out a gun, a very large gun,

1103
00:53:35.239 --> 00:53:37.320
and he handed it to me and he said.

1104
00:53:37.159 --> 00:53:38.000
What do you think of that?

1105
00:53:38.119 --> 00:53:41.239
He was measuring your manhood? And I think you failed

1106
00:53:41.239 --> 00:53:42.119
this test pretty bad.

1107
00:53:42.679 --> 00:53:45.320
It was like a magnum. It was whatever gun Clint

1108
00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:47.760
Eastwood used in Dirty Harry, Because he handed it to

1109
00:53:47.760 --> 00:53:48.039
me and he.

1110
00:53:48.039 --> 00:53:49.320
Said, what do you think of that? He said, do

1111
00:53:49.360 --> 00:53:50.280
you do you feel lucky?

1112
00:53:50.360 --> 00:53:52.440
Or something like that, And I was like, oh my god,

1113
00:53:52.159 --> 00:53:53.280
I'm about to die.

1114
00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:59.519
Some girls marry their father. I did not. Okay, I'm

1115
00:53:59.559 --> 00:54:02.039
over here deleting gummy beer. So I hope you guys

1116
00:54:02.039 --> 00:54:04.159
can't hear meet you, but I want to play a

1117
00:54:04.159 --> 00:54:05.400
game with you. I'm gonna give you I'm going to

1118
00:54:05.440 --> 00:54:07.480
put a gummy bear in your mouth, okay, And I'm

1119
00:54:07.480 --> 00:54:10.280
going to send you a message and I'm going to

1120
00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:13.320
see if you can guess what color gummy bear I've

1121
00:54:13.360 --> 00:54:14.079
given you to eat.

1122
00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:16.360
Okay, okay, all right, all right.

1123
00:54:16.840 --> 00:54:19.559
So I put the same color in my mouth, okay,

1124
00:54:19.599 --> 00:54:21.559
And I was trying to send you a mental message.

1125
00:54:21.559 --> 00:54:24.039
So I want to see how in sync we are. Okay,

1126
00:54:24.079 --> 00:54:26.400
what color or flavor was the gummy bear?

1127
00:54:26.760 --> 00:54:29.760
I really have no idea, but I am going to

1128
00:54:29.840 --> 00:54:31.719
say orange. That was the first thing that kind of

1129
00:54:31.760 --> 00:54:32.239
came to mind.

1130
00:54:32.280 --> 00:54:33.079
When you were close?

1131
00:54:33.360 --> 00:54:35.239
Really red? No, yellow?

1132
00:54:36.199 --> 00:54:41.000
Yellow? Yeah, yellow, so close. I think we're still pretty insane.

1133
00:54:41.360 --> 00:54:42.400
Yeah, I think we are too.

1134
00:54:42.519 --> 00:54:43.639
Do you think that you're psychic?

1135
00:54:44.199 --> 00:54:44.800
No? I don't.

1136
00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:46.559
When I was a kid, I used to always do

1137
00:54:46.679 --> 00:54:49.880
psychic experiments, like we would watch different shows, you know

1138
00:54:49.880 --> 00:54:52.880
about psychics, and we would as kids, me and my

1139
00:54:52.920 --> 00:54:56.280
brothers and my sister. We would do things like car

1140
00:54:56.599 --> 00:54:59.159
trying to like mind read what car am I holding

1141
00:54:59.239 --> 00:55:01.679
up and things like that, and never never really worked

1142
00:55:01.719 --> 00:55:02.000
out there.

1143
00:55:02.639 --> 00:55:06.400
Do you I think I'm psychic? Absolutely can read your

1144
00:55:06.440 --> 00:55:10.039
thoughts right now? How dare you? I'm doing just five?

1145
00:55:10.960 --> 00:55:15.360
Everyone loves me, even though people sometimes make mean comments,

1146
00:55:15.400 --> 00:55:16.960
It's okay, they still love me.

1147
00:55:17.840 --> 00:55:18.639
It's amazing.

1148
00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:22.440
So you have some major life news here, and.

1149
00:55:22.400 --> 00:55:25.480
It's not just about my apple flavor, right, Yeah. No,

1150
00:55:25.599 --> 00:55:28.800
I actually have a new job. I am starting one

1151
00:55:28.840 --> 00:55:30.199
week from today.

1152
00:55:30.519 --> 00:55:30.880
Nice.

1153
00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:31.719
Yeah.

1154
00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:34.000
So it's a little bit sad leaving my old job

1155
00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:36.719
because I did get to travel to Paris and New

1156
00:55:36.800 --> 00:55:39.840
York and all these amazing places. But I got a

1157
00:55:39.880 --> 00:55:43.000
new opportunity. It's with a startup. It's a very small company.

1158
00:55:43.039 --> 00:55:46.440
It's like maybe sixty people or so, and I'm very

1159
00:55:46.519 --> 00:55:47.400
excited about that.

1160
00:55:47.599 --> 00:55:49.880
Yeah. How many jobs have you had?

1161
00:55:51.239 --> 00:55:52.039
Jobs have I had?

1162
00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:54.719
So this is probably like five jobs ago. I was like,

1163
00:55:54.800 --> 00:55:56.880
I wish that you would have saved a business card

1164
00:55:56.880 --> 00:55:59.119
from every job in position you wish I had to,

1165
00:55:59.480 --> 00:56:01.400
because it's it's been a lot.

1166
00:56:01.519 --> 00:56:03.280
Luckily, I have like a T shirt from everything.

1167
00:56:03.320 --> 00:56:04.800
You don't even have that. I wish you would. I

1168
00:56:04.840 --> 00:56:06.360
wish I would have, say it'd be a big stack.

1169
00:56:06.440 --> 00:56:09.400
I would say on average, I have changed jobs about

1170
00:56:09.400 --> 00:56:10.599
every four years.

1171
00:56:11.000 --> 00:56:12.239
You've changed jobs a lot.

1172
00:56:12.480 --> 00:56:14.920
Yeah, I think four years is a good amount of

1173
00:56:14.960 --> 00:56:15.760
time to be somewhere.

1174
00:56:15.800 --> 00:56:19.039
I don't which gets fired every three and a half year.

1175
00:56:19.519 --> 00:56:23.159
I have never been fired, Yeah, not gone? Would it is.

1176
00:56:23.199 --> 00:56:25.480
Crazy that you've never been I mean, is that crazy.

1177
00:56:25.599 --> 00:56:26.639
You've never been fired.

1178
00:56:26.800 --> 00:56:29.199
Yeah, it's crazy. I've never been like laid off. I

1179
00:56:29.199 --> 00:56:32.039
guess there's you were once. I thought, well I was, but.

1180
00:56:31.960 --> 00:56:34.119
I think you had another job lined up already, so

1181
00:56:34.239 --> 00:56:35.000
it didn't really happen.

1182
00:56:35.079 --> 00:56:37.119
I knew it was coming. I had another job lined up,

1183
00:56:37.159 --> 00:56:40.159
So yeah, I don't really count that. But yeah, I

1184
00:56:40.159 --> 00:56:42.239
mean it's been a fair number of jobs.

1185
00:56:42.239 --> 00:56:45.000
But uh, because your oldest dirt, well.

1186
00:56:44.920 --> 00:56:48.239
I think in this case, I everybody at my old

1187
00:56:48.280 --> 00:56:50.480
company already knew about our podcast, so I had to

1188
00:56:50.519 --> 00:56:53.559
go somewhere new so that I could bring our podcast

1189
00:56:53.599 --> 00:56:54.159
to new people.

1190
00:56:54.199 --> 00:56:54.400
Yeah.

1191
00:56:54.400 --> 00:56:56.199
I probably should have gone to a bigger company.

1192
00:56:56.440 --> 00:57:00.480
So there, you're implying that that people keep listening, that

1193
00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:01.840
we retain listeners.

1194
00:57:02.199 --> 00:57:05.199
I think we probably do. Before we go.

1195
00:57:05.239 --> 00:57:08.159
I want to give a few quick shout outs. So

1196
00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:11.719
on Reddit and Facebook, there are groups of people that

1197
00:57:11.760 --> 00:57:15.039
talk about true crime podcasts, and I kind of monitor.

1198
00:57:15.119 --> 00:57:16.679
I look at those groups and kind of see what

1199
00:57:16.679 --> 00:57:19.599
people are talking about. A lot of the posts in

1200
00:57:19.679 --> 00:57:23.320
both the Reddit and the Facebook groups are asking for recommendations.

1201
00:57:23.320 --> 00:57:25.440
They're like, oh, I love this podcast, what else would

1202
00:57:25.480 --> 00:57:29.519
you recommend? And once in a while people recommend our podcast,

1203
00:57:29.679 --> 00:57:31.679
and I want to thank the people who do that

1204
00:57:31.760 --> 00:57:34.519
because it really means a lot to us, because if

1205
00:57:34.920 --> 00:57:38.280
people are hearing about our podcast from other listeners, that

1206
00:57:38.320 --> 00:57:42.119
means a lot more than us promoting our own podcast. Right,

1207
00:57:42.199 --> 00:57:44.079
So I want to give a quick shout out to

1208
00:57:44.199 --> 00:57:49.840
some redditors this cellist eighty six seventy pocket full of Rocks, okay,

1209
00:57:49.880 --> 00:57:53.679
win to seventy five thirty six and I'm the Princess too.

1210
00:57:54.360 --> 00:57:59.000
Thank you so much for recommending our podcast and on Facebook, Vicky, Nancy,

1211
00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:03.159
Maren and and I'm probably missing some. I apologize if

1212
00:58:03.159 --> 00:58:04.679
I missed you, but thank you so much.

1213
00:58:04.840 --> 00:58:06.079
We really appreciate it.

1214
00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:09.119
It does mean so much we have and I think

1215
00:58:09.159 --> 00:58:11.320
I say it, I try to say it almost every episode,

1216
00:58:11.360 --> 00:58:14.079
but it's true. We have so many like super kind

1217
00:58:14.119 --> 00:58:17.920
and I'm like getting emotional listeners that support us and

1218
00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:20.800
that they're so loyal and it means so much. You

1219
00:58:20.840 --> 00:58:22.280
can make fun of me if you want to, but

1220
00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:25.159
I think gratitude is really important, and I try my

1221
00:58:25.199 --> 00:58:28.400
best to be very grateful for the things that we

1222
00:58:28.519 --> 00:58:31.159
have in our life, and so I truly am so grateful.

1223
00:58:31.880 --> 00:58:34.079
I wouldn't make fun of you for that right.

1224
00:58:33.880 --> 00:58:36.840
Well, I think someone recently did, but it's okay. And

1225
00:58:36.920 --> 00:58:39.400
a special shout out to a newer listener named Wesley

1226
00:58:39.480 --> 00:58:42.639
who has been listening to our podcast while he is

1227
00:58:42.719 --> 00:58:44.800
a cross country trucker.

1228
00:58:45.039 --> 00:58:47.239
Yeah, and he said he has recommended us to other

1229
00:58:47.280 --> 00:58:48.000
truckers as well.

1230
00:58:48.039 --> 00:58:49.400
Yeah, we appreciate that so awesome.

1231
00:58:49.519 --> 00:58:50.159
Yeah, we sure do.

1232
00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:53.280
That's a really important job and it's hard work and

1233
00:58:53.320 --> 00:58:55.559
you're away from your family and your home a lot.

1234
00:58:55.679 --> 00:58:57.679
So shout out to all the truckers out there.

1235
00:58:58.079 --> 00:59:00.400
Thanks again, Lana for sending those snacks. That was so

1236
00:59:00.519 --> 00:59:03.679
kind of you, and thanks Chelsea for the case recommendation.

1237
00:59:04.039 --> 00:59:05.239
Good luck on your new job.

1238
00:59:05.440 --> 00:59:05.960
Well, thank you.

1239
00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:09.800
Please rate, review, follow and subscribe. Find us on social

1240
00:59:09.880 --> 00:59:12.719
media and YouTube now, or send us an email at

1241
00:59:12.800 --> 00:59:15.159
lovemarykillat gmail dot com.

1242
00:59:15.199 --> 00:59:17.480
The best way to support our podcast is to join

1243
00:59:17.559 --> 00:59:21.480
us on Patreon. Go to patreon dot com slash Lovemrykill.

1244
00:59:21.679 --> 00:59:24.360
For only five dollars a month. You get early ad

1245
00:59:24.400 --> 00:59:27.199
free access, and a monthly bonus.

1246
00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:28.440
Episode until next time.

1247
00:59:28.559 --> 01:00:00.840
Don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife. The

1248
01:00:04.079 --> 01:00:04.480
compan