Peter Madsen and the Disappearance of Kim Wall

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife and some days you feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary, Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina, how are you? I'm pretty good in a minute, or a little rusty at saving like three freaking bloopers. We've only done it like sixty times. So it's we've done it sixty three times, sixty four times. It's that's a lot of episodes.

0:43 It's hard to believe. Almost a year, very close. We're recording on Labor Day, but this episode will be released on September eleventh. Oh yeah, that's right, twenty three, twenty two years and you're flying today. No, I'll be there already. I'm flying on Saturday. I'll be by the eleventh. I should be sitting in a cafe on a sidewalk in Paris, probably eating up croissant with a little poodle, a little Bordeaux or something like that. But okay, well, lofty goals. I'm really hoping that you bring some food back you the last time you went you didn't. I'm going to give you a list of things I want to know. Maybe you did you know what you did? You did? That's true. Yeah, what do you want this time? I would like a baguette. I would like a like the freshest baguette you can get. I don't know if it'll be fresh by the time I get home, though, I mean fresh at that. That's the closest I'm going to get until I get to Paris to get a fresh bag at all. Right, I'll see what I can do. So we have some business to talk about business. We're going to talk business here. Yeah. So we're nearing a year and we had privately we'd said we weren't going to do ads, and we weren't going to do Patreon for a year. Yeah, but I think we're going to rip the band aid off and we have actually had we had a little miscommunication and there were some ads running. Yeah, there have been a few ads running.

2:01 We've been dabbling in it a little bit, and yeah, but we shut it off. But we're gonna turn the spigot back on. I think the spigot a the ad, the adspigot and the Patreons pigott. Well, the ads. We're not going to inundate you with ads, but we don't have a ton of control over the ads. It's great that we are able. We've had enough listens. You don't just get to pull ads. You have to have a certain number of listens before you have ads. So we're very fortunate to be able to have ads because it's not sustainable for us to not make any money at this We're ye put a lot into it, and I think it's time to at least start to recoup some of what we've invested. But the way the ads work on the podcast networks, unless you're like a huge podcast, which we're not, you know, basically ads you can turn on ads to get you know, placed into your podcast, but you don't have a lot of control over what ads they are or you know, how long they're placed. You can kind of control where they get put, and we're going to try to make sure they're at a point where it's not too you know, disruptive or whatever. But we don't love it, but we do need to recoup some of our investment, and yeah, why not.

3:10 But we are at the same time launching a Patreon. So if you don't want to listen to ads, but you are willing to, you know able if you're able to support us. I know a lot of people have. People have been so sweet and kind and generous, and I know they like a lot of the content that we're doing. And I know not everyone is able to. So if you're able to and you want to support the podcast and help us grow, that would be amazing. Yeah. So if you go to patreon dot com and just search for love Mary Kill, you should find us, and we'll try to try our best to make it worthwhile right on. Some of the benefits we wanted to offer would be no ads, early access to episodes, early access to part two two, and if we're up to me, I would literally send each and every listener a new car.

3:54 That's not feasible, but I want to try to surprise. Send a surprise eyes here and there. Just small things, small things, but anyway, please consider that. Yeah, we appreciate it. If you can, no worries. I am abundantly uncomfortable talking about money part of the podcast, but thank you, thank you. There you go, there you go. So anyway, here today we I'm going to tell you you're gonna be surprised, but a horrible story about a beautiful, young promising journalist. I'm already tearing up Kim wall or Kim Vall. I'm going to say a lot of things wrong today. Please bear with me and Peter Madsen, and we're going to go to Denmark. Our lovely listener Deanna from Denmark recommended this case, So thanks Deanna, this one's for you. Awesome Indianna very enthusiastic about the snacks and she had many are many suggestions. Yeah, and I so, okay, I'm just gonna unveil the snack here. I'm gonna bring it out for you guys. Do you like a little yeah, So what we have here is a bacon wrapped date, okay, and then just some apples with some liquorice powder on them, liquorice. Janna said that liquorice powder is a big or not liquorice powder, but liquorice is huge in Denmark. People really like their liquorice. And it made you some almonds that are they're like cooked,

5:27 they're slightly dark. I think I had to warm them up today. And but then I made you one thing that isn't Danish. I had the dates out and I remember this kind of candy treat that I've made before you take a date, you cut it open, you stuff it with peanut butter, and it sounds disgusting, but I promise you it's good. And then you roll it and powdered sugar. Okay, wow, do you want to quite a that's quite a Morgas sport. That's Swedish. We are going to talk about Sweden a little bit today. Two. Okay, well it looks amazing, so yeah, let's take it. Well. Diana also said that dates stuffed with blue cheese are big, but we didn't have any blue cheese and I forgot to get some. So anyway, here we go. All right, well that was amazing. Really, I feel so international and cosmopolitan.

6:20 Yeah. I really liked the plum wrapped in the bacon. Okay, that's a date plum. Okay, same thing, right, No, I know they're at the same thing. That was delicious, the apple apple thing, it was okay. The what was the little treat, the confessed treat that's not Danish. That's just something that I yeah, I made just because I had the dates out and I was like, oh yeah, I think you might like this. It's a date stuffed with peanut butter rolled in powdered sugar and you you cut it up kind of small so you get more sugar, but it's kind of a healthy. Yeah, it was a healthier treat. Yeah, it's almost like a candy. Yeah. And then the almonds also very the almost I think are really tasty. So thanks so much Deanna free recommendations. It was fun. Oh and I should mention too if anyone wants to try this at home. I got this liquorice powder from Amazon, of course, and liquorice is spelled l i q u o riice and you can make tea with it too, which I think it might be a good tea and I think it settles stomachs. Cool. So yeah, there's that awesome. All right. Well let's a dive right in will This case is heavily and the last case that I covered was Tina and Gabe Watson and then involved diving, and this case also involves diving, but not in scuba diving but a submarine. Oh okay. Peter Madsen forty seven, a self proclaimed and venturepreneur, independently built three submarines and a rocket. He was well known

7:54 in his home country of Denmark for his inventions and eccentric personality. His first rocket launch was just days away when his entire life unraveled on August tenth, twenty seventeen, after he invited freelance journalist kimwell Wall thirty aboard his submarine for an interview. Only one of them returned in Entrepreneur. Yeah, he's a little bit of an elon Musk. Alright, alright. Denmark, with a population of nearly six million people, is known to be one of, if not the happiest country in the world. It is the southernmost Scandinavian country, with the land mass of sixteen thousand, five hundred miles or forty three thousand kilo kilometers. It is made up of a peninsula and an archipelago of over four hundred islands. Only about seventy of those islands are inhabited, and many of the islands are connected by a bridge. Denmark shares only one border with Germany to its south, and is connected to Sweden by the sixteen kilometer Orisund Bridge, which goes from Copenhagen, Denmark, to Melmo, Sweden. While Denmark's climate is temperate, there is precipitation. About half of the days of the year. Isn't that crazy? That is crazy because Denmark is surrounded by water, it is vulnerable to erosion and the effects of climate change. Denmark is predominantly white and Christian. What do you think makes Daines so happy?

9:18 Could it be because college education is free along with healthcare. There's also why are you laughing at me? Oh no, I'm just laughing because I'll tell you about my Denmark experience in a minute. But it's sort of relevant to that. There is welfare support for individuals and families who are struggling, and the elderly and l are also well taken care of. Denmark is a big believer and renewable energy, education, sustainability, recycling and bicycling. Denmark is also known for huga. Do you know huga? Is? I do because we have a book about it? Hug What is it? If you're so smart, It's like the art of living or the art of happiness? Right, yeah, pretty much the art of coziness, relaxation and spending time enjoying life, small pleasures. Big fan of the hougah. But like one of the biggest things about huga is lighting and I need to work on that because we have. We have a lot of overhead lighting in our house, and I think, like, that's not the coziest lighting, Okay, but I think because of the weather, Like the Danes are really good at the lighting, because a lot of times it's probably a little cloudy. And yeah, the Danish pay up to fifty percent of their income and taxes, but most don't mind too much because they receive so much in return from their government.

10:33 I have just a couple of random things. Danish pastries were originally made by Austrian bakers. Eighty six percent of Danes speak English as a second language. Denmark has the oldest flag in the world, and it's home to Lagos and Hans Christian Anderson. But the story I'm about to tell you is the most horrific murder in Denmark's history. Okay. I also just wanted to say, I'm really sorry for mispronouncing. I just misspronounced. Mispronounce. I am a disaster. There's a lot of there's not too many. It's actually I'm pretty fortunate that the names were Kim Wall and Peter Madsen. But yeah, I'm sure you'll do the best you can. Light. So I went to Denmark that was the first place I ever went to in Europe was Copenhagen, Denmark, and I just loved it. Was beautiful, dunning the pictures I can't believe I had. I still remember I had the best meal of my life there. It was actually an Italian restaurant, which was Wow, that's bold because I cooked for you every well, this was like a twelve course meal.

11:31 It was like, oh, I remember you telling me about that. Yeah, it was amazing. Is that where the shoe the shoe? No, No, that was a different place. But so then it was a beautiful city. I loved it just you know, walking around the shops and everything are beautiful. But I went out shopping one day with my boss, the CEO of my company, and we went I bought you a sweater. I don't know if you remember the sweater I brought you back from Denmark many many years ago. Yeah, I do. It was you brought one back for our daughter, did I? Yeah, like a little it was. They were beautiful. Yeah, they must have been super expensive. My boss, the CEO of the company, he got he got in this like political debate with the owner of the sweater shop about like taxes and stuff like that.

12:16 It was so funny to see because my boss was very much like, your taxes are so high. I can't I can't imagine. And she was just like, well, yes, but our college is paid for our health care is paid for it. And she just kind of went on and on and it was it was kind of funny to watch that that exchange. The other thing about Dan Mark is I saw a Pink Floyd tribute band and they were really good. One thing that struck me. And we'll play some clips later on. But the the acts there's their pronunciation is so good of English like it it sounds like there's just barely an accent there. Yeah, and some of some of the people. Peter Madsen was born on January twelfth, nineteen seventy one. January twel yeah, that's a special day. Well is it? It's it's my birthday. Yes. I just want to say, not all people born on January twelfth, or our psychopaths. Oh okay, so Peter Madsen is turned out to be a psychopath. I guess. Yeah, he's not a good guy. You're not gonna like it. You're not gonna like him at all. He was born to Carl and Annie Madsen in Denmark. Carl was a pub owner and rock and enthusiast. Annie was thirty six years his junior, and she was very religious. Annie had three older sons from two previous marriages, whom Carl was abusive towards, frequently beating them, prompting Annie to leave the marriage when Peter was just six. Peter stayed with his sixty nine year old father while his mother and brother started a new life. When Annie began seeing another man, Carl told Peter that he could see his mother, but if he did, he could never come back.

13:48 I don't think he ever saw Annie again, which is probably one of the most important factors in analyzing Madsen's psyche. He was angry Annie never came back for him and Peter's biography Rocket Madsen. He called his father domineering, jealous, and violent. He was also racist and misogynistic. He compared him to a Nazi officer for his cruelness towards his brother, brothers, and mother. Despite his dire personality, Carl's passion for rockets sparked a lifelong passion and his son and gave them something in common. Carl built a lab for himself and his son to work together, although the relationship was often acrimonious. Carl introduced him to the work of Werner von Braun, a Nazi aerospace engineer who later came to the US and helped develop the Apollo missions. Carl died when Peter was eighteen. Peter lacked focus and determination during his college years. He struggled to commit to a course of study at university. He tried welding, refrigeration, and engineering, but none compelled him enough to stay in school. He dropped up before receiving a degree, but he felt like he could learn on his own without a formal education. As a teenager, Peter founded the Danish Amateur Rocket Club. He was later kicked out of his own club when other members felt he was using unsafe fuels to propel his rockets. Madson built his first sub UC one Freya, in two thousand and two. She had over five hundred dives before she was decommissioned and sunk into the sea. Freya was

15:20 so small that she could barely fit two people. UC two Kraka, launched in two thousand and five, was a little bigger, accommodating three people, and was more streamlined and modern The UC three Nautilus, named after Captain Nemo Ship and Jules Verne's novel twenty thousand Leagues under the Sea, built in two thousand and eight, was his masterpiece, but more on that later. Madson married in twenty eleven. The identity of his wife is unknown. She has requested privacy, and the media surprisingly has respected that she divorced him in twenty eighteen. After his arrest, Madson claims that they had an open relationship. It could have been easy being married to Peter. Even before the scandal.

16:03 He was passionate and driven, and often slept in his workshop. He liked to throw parties and wow people with his inventions. When he was younger, he hadn't been very social, but as an adult, his accentured work and rebellious anti government stance attracted people to him, especially artists and freethinkers like himself. While Matson was somewhat of a celebrity in Denmark, he wasn't wealthy and struggled financially at times. He never really had a regular job. He depended on crowdfunding, the generosity of others and speaking fees. Matson was also known to enjoy a BDSM lifestyle, frequently attending fetish parties while sometimes wearing a navy uniform. We've had a lot of people that have had a few. Yeah.

16:45 Yeah. At his trial, he admitted to being very promiscuous and autoerotically active. One can't help but draw a conclude comparison between the phallic nature of Matson's submarine obsession and his sexual proclivities and rockets too. I guess right. Deed King, a close friend of Matson's, told Wired magazine quote, I broke both of my hands once, and Peter came by every day for two months and brushed my hair. He is a man who loves women. End quote. Robert Fox, who made the documentary My Private Submarine, told Wired magazine that women found him fascinating and sometimes the submarine was used in his seduction strategies. According to New Yorker Magazine, he had allegedly acted, directed, and produced two porn films. In two thousand and seven, he loaned two submarines to the porn movie A Thunder Pussy. Manson was also into the art scene once he loaned his submarines to a ballet company that performed submerged in water.

17:44 Along with his sons, a real patron of the arts of sk He really was, I mean, an psychopath, but an interesting guy. Yeah, okay, now we're going to talk about Kim, who every time, not every most, like all the cases. Really, I just love our end up falling in love with the victims, and Kim is one of my favorites. So very empathetic Kim, I'll be prepared to hit the pause button. Kim Wall was born on March twenty third, nineteen eighty seven in Trailburg, Sweden, the southernmost city in the country. Her parents, Joachim and Ingrid Wall, were both journalists. Kim was lovingly called Mumlin by her family. Tom was born about a year after Kim and completed the family. From a young age, Kim and Tom were world travelers. By the age of one, Kim had visited all of the European countries, often tagging along with her parents on assignment. Joakim was a photojournalist in Ingrid was an award winning print journalist. I've listened to a lot of interviews with them. Lovely, lovely people. Even as a child, Kim had an unquenchable curiosity to learn about the world and its cultures. She was ambitious, smart, beautiful and kind with a bubbly personality. Kim studied in Malmo, Sweden, the London School of Economics, and the Sarbonne in Paris before she moved to the United States and received two master's degree from Columbia University in journalism and international affairs.

19:11 Her family was very proud of her. She was the first among them to earn a college degree. She trained in Dela Delahi, India as a trainee for the European Union, the Swedish Embassy in Canbery, Australia, and the South China Morning Post in Hong Kong. So she just a crazy amount, yeah, of success in her young life. I'm just so impressed by people that are so well traveled and have so much, you know, international kind of global experience like that. It's just mind blowing. Yeah. Kim's work was featured in The New York Times, Slate, Harper's, The Atlantic, Vice Magazine, Time Magazine, The Guardian, the South China Morning Post, and many others. She was just thirty when when she died. In twenty thirteen, Kim won first place in the Foreign Press Association's competition and for Young Journalists She was a social justice warrior and gave voice to people without without one, but her work had a pop culture spin that made it relevant and modern.

20:08 Her body of work is interesting and diverse. Some of her Some of her work includes an article on furries. You know what you know what a fur? Yeah? Tell us about a furious in case people don't. I'm sure everyone knows, but I people who like to dress up like animals, right or were like fur tails and stuff, and it's it's sort of like a sexual thing. I guess. Well, I'll tell you more in a second. But remember one time, this was years ago, we were at I think it was was it when Borders was still around. We were at a bookstore and I remember we had our kids with us, and someone had my little pony like out costume on and I was like, what the hell?

20:49 And that was my first was your first experience? Yeah? I think kids must not have been that young, because I think I think they knew what it was. Yeah. Anyway, I read I read this article and from Kim's work, most furries are mail work in the tech world, and for many it isn't about sex, but they identify more as animals. H Kim also wrote an article on voodoo. She had an interview with a real life vampire. It's just really had a really interesting body of work. And I've read a couple of the articles that I want to go back and read more because she just she was a really great writer. Kim's best known article is about the Marshall Islands and the devastating effects of climate change that will soon likely turn the residents into climate refugees as their beautiful islands disappear under the ocean.

21:37 The article also describes nuclear tests by the US from nineteen forty eight to nineteen fifty eight on Bikini Atoll, one of the Marshall Islands, and the long lasting effects on the people there. These tests were the equivalent of bombs one point six times the size of the bombs dropped on Hiroshima every day for ten years. Wow, I didn't know this story. It's it's crazy. A dome on the island contains tons of nuclear waste. It is deteriorating and the nuclear waste will wash out to see if the dome becomes further compromised. Here's Kim on w NYC talking about her work. One hundred and eleven thousand, cubic yards of radioactive waste are housed under a giant concrete dome in the middle of the Pacific Ocean in the Marshall Islands. The Runt Dome and its toxic contents are the hulking legacy of years of US nuclear testing in the Pacific.

22:30 And if that wasn't reason enough concern, the dome is leaking and all the radioactive waste is additionally threatened by rising sea levels caused by climate change. Kim Wall investigated the dome for The Guardian along with Colleen is It Jo Jose Jose and also Jan Hedrik Hinsel and Kim joins us. Now, welcome to our show. Thank you, thank you for having us. You right that the Runa Dome looks like a down owned UFO and that locals call it the tomb. How large is it? It is twenty two feet high and it's it's such a surreal site. When you come to Ruined Island, which is pretty tiny, you walk through the bushes and there it is, and no warning signs, nothing that indicates what's inside. And it looks so surreal.

23:26 It's like what we write is like a UFO or like a very baseball in the sand. Now, why are there no warning signs? You must have asked that is a really good question. And we did ask the US scientists who regularly monitored the site, and they say that there should be some signs and they will look into it. Do you know if most visitors to the dome or to the area are even aware what's inside? Vaguely aware? I believe the islanders live only fourteen miles away thirty minutes by boat, on Anewetak Island, the main island of the atoll, the world's only resettle nuclear ground zero, And the locals don't even have a word for radiation. They refer to it as poison. And they do know that run it is not a safe place to visit. There used to be more regulations in place. The boats could not go more than one mile off the shores of this off limits island, but now no one is regulating it, and and the locals have begun to visit islands to try to make an extra income. So what's inside this dome? It's the stuff that was left on the soil after the nuclear tests, just scraped off, that's right. That's a mix of contaminated soil and irradiated debris from the forty three atomic bombs that were exp hydrogen hydrogen bombs.

25:03 Yes, I love her voice. I know I had to look really hard to find a clip of her voice, and just sounds like such a sweet, sweet person. And that story is just mind boggling. Yeah, if you go to Remembering Kimwall dot com, it's a lovely memorial website. Her parents have been strongly involved in developing that. But it has a ton of her articles and just more information about her. So strongly encourage you to go there and read more of her work and just see. Like I only mentioned a few of the articles, but she has a lot of just quirky, quirky things, and I love that kind of thing. So, a Columbia journalism professor said, quote, Kim wanted to write unexpected stories, and that's exactly what she did. She took the topics seriously, even if they often made you laugh. The combination of finding odd stories and treating them with respect got her sources to relax and allowed her to get the most out of the interview. End quote. Kim's friend Tim McDonnell said in the documentary Undercurrent, the Disappearance of Kim Wall quote. She was motivated by the weirdness of the world, working in the undercurrents of rebellion, weird little corners that hopefully broaden people's mind and quote. Kim spent her time between New York and Copenhagen.

26:18 When she wasn't traveling for work, she was very much in love at the time of her death. She spent as much time as she could with her her boyfriend, Olie Stobe, a Danish designer. Kim even joked that her career and Wallett had suffered since falling in love. Olie lived in ref Sholin, an area in Copenhagen known for its former shipyards but is now a trendy hub of creativity and progression. Olie's name is ol E and I'm not sure if I'm saying it right. Sounds right to me? Well, like here we would say oh, but I heard someone call it say Ole, But I'm just gonna go with Olie. Kim had been working as a freelance nalist for four years. She got a lot done in four years. In twenty sixteen, she underwent training for several days with he Fat the hostile environment and first aid training for journalism. She was taught self defense and trained how to handle a kidnapping or a hostage situation. She was keenly aware of the dangers of her profession, but undeterred. She believed in what she called shoe leather journalism. She liked to be amongst the people she reported about and speak to them directly. So what do you think of Kim so far? Oh?

27:30 She sounds amazing. I mean, yeah, I just love people like that. Yeah. So now back to Peter. Peter Madsen, along with his friend Kristen von Bankston, a Danish architect who had previously worked for NASA, co founded a crowdfunded nonprofit company called Copenhagen's sub Orbitals in two thousand and eight. Their lab, located in Raffholin on the Baltic Sea, was housed in a hanger that had once been used to paint battleships. Copenhagen Suborbital First Feet was the UC Nautilus three, part art project and part engineering triumph. The Nautilus took its first voyage on May third, two thousand and eight, as spectators excitedly watched it being lowered into the water in Copenhagen, Denmark.

28:14 The UC three Nautilus was the longest and tallest independently operated submarine ever built. It was fifty eight feet long and weighed forty tons. Built from the base of a wind turbine, it costs over two hundred thousand dollars to build, but it was constructed mostly by items you can find at your local hardware store. And I know you're going to like go to home depot after this building the submarine. Yeah, no, I'm not going to build a submarine. Copenhagen sub Well, we don't have any water near us. It's kind of pond out back. Oh yeah. Copenhagen Suborbitals then set their sights on the next great beyond space. They planned to launch the firstmand built from scratch rocket with crowdfunding. They called it the Ultimate DIY project. Copenhagen Suborbitals is run by over fifty dedicated volunteers. In twenty thirteen in Kiev, Madison gave a ted talk about his work with Copenhagen Suborbitals. Here's a clip. Now, what Christian I decided to do was our ultimate challenge. What we wanted to do was to build a mission, to produce a mission that would carry a human being into space and safely back. Pretty much like like Kennedy said, I believe this nation should commit itself to the goal of landing a man on the noon and they're turning him safely back to Earth. Our sort of pledge would be that we try to send a human being out of that birth atmosphere and stay out there, be waitless, and enjoy the view, and then return back to Earth. And when I say man, of course, I

29:45 mean like mankind, it might as well be a female. I'd love to launch a female. We just kind of been able to found volunteers for this homemade rocket, right, certainly not female volunteers. So I stepped in myself and say, okay, you can launch me unexpendable. So that's a great experience and a great honor to be allowed to do such a thing. What we see in these pictures is the construction of our prototype spacecraft. It was very discount We build it so that you could only stand up inside of it. They weren't rove to lie down. And we can see that we're actually welding it, we're actually building it. We're not going to the bank and lending money. We simply started constructing it. And we are presented with a number of incredible difficult problems, and the only way to deal with incredible difficult problems that you cannot see a way through is to do something different. When we needed a place to launch our rocket, the problem was that we could not get a permit to launch it at the Bikon or Cosmo droom because they don't take amateur rockets. We couldn't get to launch it and can the space and that either I'd have to say we didn't ask, but we found out that the probably wouldn't be likely or for that matter, any other professional space range. So what we decided to do instead was to go out to sea, so as early in the pronching ness we could. We simply constructed a sea launch ship. We've built the ship that you consider this pick of this is a twelve liters why fifteen the long casmaron that can carry a two ton

31:18 rocket far to see outside the rules and regulations of the as space, and from there we can launch all rockets, although they're quite experimental and the prediction of the flight can be difficult. That's him. Huh yeah? Does he sound like a psychopath? Sounds like your classic self proclaimed genius in venturepreneur. Well, here's a blurb from the Copenhagen Orbital website that I'm going to have you read if you don't mind sure. Copenhagen Suborbitals is the world's only crude amateur space flight program. We are located in Denmark with supporters across the world. From twenty eleven to the present day, we've designed and flown six rockets and capsules from our floating launch site in the Baltic Sea. Our goal is simple but audacious, to fly an amateur astronaut to space and return them safely to Earth, a mission as ambitious as Alan Shepherd's first space flight. Without any governmental or corporate backing. We seek to prove that any motivated group of people can reach space. If we are successful, Denmark, a nation of less than six million people, will be the fourth nation on Earth and the first in Europe to launch humans into space on a domestic rocket, joining the ranks of Russia, the USA and China. When George Mallory was asked why he wanted to climb Mount Everest, he replied, because it's there. We work to send an amateur into space because space is there to be explored.

32:45 Copenhagen sub Orbitals is a crowdfunded nonprofit organization. We're a plucky group of fifty to sixty inspired volunteers. It takes a diverse team to build rockets. Our staff includes blacksmiths, physicists, rocket scientists, and software engineers to name only a few of our dedicated specialists. We work in our spare time, around the margins of our work days. So I just took that from their website last week, and apparently they haven't updated because India has now landed on the Moon. I thought there might be more contries. Yeah, yeah, I think just for a second we should talk about that. Really is a major feat to build these machines without government funding and to do it in your spare time and crowdfunding it. It is a really they are really cool projects.

33:37 In twenty fourteen, Madsen and Kristen von Bengston severed ties. Madsen had become obsessed with the mild fame he had garnered and ironically accused von Bengston of stealing the limelight. The truth was Madsen wasn't organized and didn't comprehend that for their space mission to succeed, they need to adopt Van Bangston's more methodical approached. He opened rock at Madsen's space lab known as RML and the hanger across the way from Copenhagen's suborbitals. The rivaling space pioneers was a big story and gained the kind of media attention neither Madsen nor von Bankston desired. So essentially, they asked him. They told him, you need to leave because he was just very disruptive and a little crazy. But I just think it's so funny too that he just went across the street. Madsen's vision was manifested by a large group of passionate volunteers. These dedicated volunteers worked their nine to five jobs during the week, but their weekends belonged to Madsen's projects. His work would not have been possible without their dedication and willingness to volunteer their time and skills.

34:44 They weren't driven by money or fame, but by the mission to become the first independent rocket to go to space. Madsen was known to be moody and eccentric, as most brilliant inventors are. His favorite uniform was coveralls and hiking boots, and that's how he performed, ted talked to. He was often described as unpredictable and erratic. At times, he was kind and patient and quite charismatic, but when things went awry, he was known for his petulant temper, tantrums, throwing hammers, screwdrivers and other things around the workshop, along with insults. He liked to pretend to be a Nazi, and he had an odd fascination with the Third Reich. As his father did. Madsen approached his inventions with an anti establishment attitude, which made him a hero to many. Oly and Kim were out one night for a walk when they came across the hangar that housed Madsen's RML space Lab. It was right next door to Copenhagen Suborbitals. Kim thought it was peculiar that two workshops with such similar missions were so close to each other, and she was instantly intrigued.

35:47 She knew there was a good story there. She began a month's long investigation into the competing space laps. She shot the idea for an article about Madsen and von Bengston around. Wired magazine picked up the story. Kim called Peter Madsen many many times, but she didn't have any luck reaching him. I wouldn't imagine he's the kind of guy that would return your phone call ever, but he probably really loved publicity too, so true he didn't seem to be interested in being interviewed for her story. Kim was patient, but in August twenty seventeen, she was running out of time. She and Olyi were moving to Beijing in a few days. Kim had an indelible curiosity about the world and had an unmatched wanderlust. She and Olie were so excited to start their new life together in China. Kim loved Chinese culture. She once said home is where my suit case is. Only described her as falling in love every fifty meters with something new in the world. Kim was brave, but sometimes she felt vulnerable and wary of her environment. She struggled with being an international freelance reporter and being respected by men. She texted her friend the following message on March fourteenth, twenty seventeen. I only have questions about agency as a woman and if we'll ever be free no matter what we do. Leaning towards no, Kim had been pursuing and researching Peter Madson for seven months and was beginning to think the interview would never come to fruition when he sent her a text inviting her to Tea on August tenth, twenty seventeen, it seemed like a very peter thing to do. Come for Tea, Kim and Olie were hosting a bon voyage party for themselves. She was so excited to interview Peter

37:22 that she dropped everything and went to meet him. This was the interview she needed to complete her story. She asked Olie if he wanted to accompany her. He wanted to tag along and meet the genius inventor, but he was expecting guests and didn't want to cancel on them at the last minute. Kim promised to return a few hours later after her interview with Madsen was finished, and joined the party. Peter Madson not only agreed to Kim's interview, but he also invited her to come aboard his submarine for a two hour voyage. She jumped at the opportunity. Of course, she was so excited to have exclusive access to him. She sent Olie several photos, one of her boarding the submarine, one of her at the wheel, and a picture of underwater windmills, along with a series of texts that said I'm still alive, by the way, but I'm going down now. I love you with five exclamation points. He brought coffee and cookies. This was the last contact anyone ever had with Kim. The bon voyage party was still going strong when someone told Olie to look towards the horizon off in the distance. He saw Kim waving at them against the backdrop of the setting sun from the tower of the Nautilus.

38:30 Can you picture that? No, Okay, you know, like a submarine is like long and skinny, but there's this I'll post a picture, of course, but there's like a okay, like the bridge, like the bridge or whatever, like the yeah, and it's just like the circular you know, tower stacked on top of the Okay. So she was right there, right near, Yeah, she was, Yeah, she was close to them. I should mention here that it was a big submarine and required a minimum of three crew members to safely sail. Peter and Kim were the only two on board. He shouldn't have taken it out on his own, but I think he frequently did. The bon voyage party continued into the night and later moved to a local bar. Oli began to worry that Kim hadn't returned yet. He went to the dock, growing more concerned by the minute.

39:15 At one thirty am, he rode his bike around the island but didn't see Kim or the submarine. He called the police and then the Danish coast Guard. Olie couldn't imagine that Peter Madsen, a well known man in Dedmark, would have caused harm to Kim. He assumed there must have been a problem with the Nautilus. By four am, news spread that the local maritime rescue center was responding to an emergency. Olie, who'd been awake all night worrying about Kim, waited until five thirty am to call her parents and Schulberg, Sweden, just forty five minutes away, awakening them with the news of Kim's disappearance. The Walls raced to Copenhagen to be with Olie as the search ensued. Kim and Olie had been dating I think for about a year, and ironically the Walls had just met him a few days prior, so they didn't know him well okay, but they really liked him. Helicopters and three boats went out searching for the Nautilus. The submarine had enough oxygen to last for twelve hours with two people on board, time was running out. The Nautilus was spotted several hours later near a lighthouse in Coke Bay, about thirty miles from Copenhagen. Matson made radio contact and said that everyone on board was fine.

40:25 Ole and Kim's parents were alerted and they were overjoyed that the submarine was found and Kim was safe. I wish that was the end of the story. Yeah, I wish it was too. Sadly, the relief was short lived. A good Samaritan was searching for the Nautilus on his boat when he saw Peter in the tower of his submarine waving. He then briefly disappeared down the hatch of the Nautilus and reappeared as it began to sink into the sea. Peter jumped into the water and swam to a nearby boat. He was pulled out of the water to safety. The Nautilus sank in thirty seconds. There was no sign of Kim. News traveled fast that a rescue was underway, and the media, along with Oli and the Walls, was present at the dock. When Peter arrived on shore, he looked nonplussed, not at all like a man who had just done unspeakable things to a young woman so full of life and promise. He gave reporters a thumbs up and said he was okay, but he was sad because a submarine had sunk. He said, there had been a defect and the ballast tank. Do you know what a ballast tank is? I not really ballast tank is. I'm sorry to put you on the spodica. A ballast tank is a compartment within a boat, ship or other floating structure that holds water, which is used to provide hydrostatic stability for a vessel to reduce or control buoyancy, as in a submarine or other submersible. Exactly, I knew that. I just wanted to make sure you knew. Thank you. Police noted Madsen had fresh scratches on his arms and blood on his left nostril. Madson claimed that he had dropped Kim off the previous night at a port on rof Scholine Island near her home because

42:00 of the problem with the submarine's ballastink. Footage from surveillance cameras was searched, and no images of Kim or a submarine was found. Authorities didn't believe Madsen's story and announced he was a murder suspect. He was arrested and charged with involuntary manslaughter for quote having killed in an unknown way and an unknown place. Kim Isabel Frederika Wall of Sweden sometime after Thursday five pm. Gross negligence would later be added to the charges. The Walls learned the news as they waited in the police station to be interviewed, when it was broadcast on TV that Peter Matson had been arrested. So at this point they're still hoping that Kim is out there somewhere. The sunken submarine was raised on Sunday, August thirteenth in the early morning hours, filled with over nine thousand gallons of water.

42:52 Once the submarine was searched, authorities were surprised to learn that Kim's body was not inside, although some of her clothing and jacket were found. Investigators determined that the Nautilus was intentionally sunk by Madson. Coagulated blood was found that matched Kim's. During his first court appearance, Madsen's story changed after he claimed that a hatch in the submarine had hit Kim in the head, killing her. The hatch weighed one hundred fifty four pounds, so it certainly had the potential to kill or seriously injure Kim. Madson told please he buried Kim at c because he didn't want a dead body aboard his submarine. Well, that's horrible. I just don't he was not that far out, and this is his excuse. Oh, I had to bury my body because I didn't want Yeah, I'm struggling to make sense of how all this is going to make any sense at all? I guess. He told investigators that he was so distraught after Kim's death he contemplated suicide. Using divers and sonar the water's research for Kim's body, but it was an extremely vast area and would be like finding a needle in a haystack, or more accurately, finding a needle in one hundred haystacks. Media coverage was rabid, unrelenting, and exhausting for the Walls.

43:59 They refused all interview requests. They were frustrated by the media's focus on Madsen and the lack of respect shown for Kim. She was a nameless victim, not an accomplished woman who had made an impact with her work in journalism. So his story, just so I have this straight. So his story is that she was killed accidentally by this hatch and then he just decided he didn't want a dead body on his sub and so he put her out into the water. Yeah, yeah, okay, And I think, like, I don't know where they were, he said he he had opened the hatch like they were must have been going up, and he opened the hatch and then accidentally dropped it and it fell on her head. On August twenty first, a woman was riding her bike near the site where the submarine sink.

44:40 She made the gruesome discovery of a female torso on the beach. A piece of metal was strapped to the torso and a failed attempt to weigh it down. The heartbroken Wall family gave police Kim's hairbrush and toothbrush for a DNA analysis. Two days later, test results confirmed that the torso belonged to Kim. That's horrible. It's horrible. An autopsy on the torso was promptly completed, revealing that Kim had been stabbed fifteen times. Post mortem, in and around her vagina, possibly to keep the torso from floating to the surface. The cause of death was undetermined. Kim's head and extremities appeared to have been purposely removed. Matson told police he was forced to dismember Kim's body after he had tried to get her through the tower of the submarine for over an hour and had failed. It was a horrible irony to Kim's family that she had traveled the globe to dangerous places like Syria and North Korea, yet she had died so close to her childhood home in a country with such a low rate of crime. The media sieged the walls to make a statement. They struggled to process what had happened to their beloved Kim, but they released the following statement on August seventeenth. We Kim's family, parents and brother are experiencing the worst days of our lives. No one can imagine what we are going through.

45:55 Kim has worked in so many dangerous places in her work as a journalist. In their been many times we worried about her. That something could have happened in Copenhagen, just a stone's throw from her childhood home, is something we could never have imagined. Now it looks as though the worst has happened. This is why we Ingrid, Joachim and Tom Wall appear to any of you who might be able to help us find out what has happened. We have great confidence in the way the police are working, and we passionately, we hope, passionately the public will contribute with information that can help them solve the case. Please contact the police in Copenhagen or Melmo and tell them anything you know. We can't imagine anything better than getting our Kim back safe and sound, but we realize the chances are very small. Even so, please let us know what has happened. A group of fifty determined divers who dive more than three thousand, five hundred times searching for Kim became frustrated with the slow pace of the search for her remains. Joaquim Wall suggested to the Danish police to use cadaver dogs to help narrow the search field. Jens Mueller Jensen, who was in charge of the investigation, had become close with Ingrid Kim.

47:00 The Danish police had never used cadaver dogs before. They just didn't believe in the science, but Joachim was persistent and had connections, so Gen's relented and cadaver dogs were broader board the boats to help narrow the search. Surprised cadaver dogs could work out in the sea, I mean yeah, and I'm surprised that Denmark hadn't used then to that point. They do know cool. In October, divers found Kim's head, her clothing, and a knife and plastic bags. Kim's skull showed no signs of a fracture, so investigators knew that Peter's story about her being hit by the hatch was a lie. I already suspected that a saw was found by the divers, so his story about dismembering her because he couldn't get her up the hatch was another lie. The decapitation and dismemberment must have been premeditated. Her legs were found tied to pieces of metal, and in late November, the last of Kim's remains, her arms were found tied to pipes. So I'll talk about the show, but there is a HBO show called The Investigation, and it covers it's just I think it was six parts, and it really covers like the divers and how hard they worked to find Kim's remains. It was arduous work and just really and the dogs really did help narrow the search field, so it was a vast area. And yeah, people are really heros. I think about that.

48:27 In other cases we've done the people who would just risk their lives to, you know, search for remains of people just to bring closure to their families. It's just really heroic. Yeah, it spot on. It was disappointing to investigators. With Kim's body together again, there was still no clear cause of death. The Walls waited until June to hold a funeral for Kim. She was well loved and people from all over the globe came to Sweden for her final final farewell. Him was an artist and a storyteller, and every sense she seemed to be uttered and uniquely unafraid of going into uncharted territories. She had wonder loss and droves and it hung off her every work. Kim had an infectious curiosity that was almost childlike in nature, full of innocence and good will. She grabbed every opportunity she could. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. She along the way, her life became an adventure the world through Kim's eyes was a rare and special perspective. She didn't shy away from tough questions. My friend, Kim wrote stories that transformed cultural anthropology into popular narratives. He need going from continent to continent looked like it was no big deal. We complain often that journalism lacks creativity and depth, but Kim had so much of them. She told human stories in the same where she lived

50:00 her life. She told them with grace, dignity, and joyce care for our shared experiences. I remember when she told me about her upbringing. Both of her parents were journalists and she had often accompanied them on small reporting trips. That's why she's so good. I thought Kim would have wanted more women out in the world rushing up against life. She gave voice the week the vulnerable and marginalized people. That voice has been needed for a long time. No, it will not be that's a very nice tribute. Yeah, someone's getting a little teary eyed. I know I'm a weirdo, but I have pictures of our victims on my phone, and I have one picture of Kim.

50:49 Let's just so lovely. Madsen's computer was searched and videos of women being orchard burned, alived and decapitated were found, yet he maintained that Kim had died in an accident aboard the submarine. It was discovered that Madson had an unhealthy obsession with snuff films. So I think snuff films, like I think, this is what I texted you, literally, like, if the FBI is at the door, it's for me. And that's when I was trying to find Like I wasn't trying to find snuff films, even just information. It's really hard to find information because I think it's in question whether they even exist or not. But of course they exist, but I'm not sure how you access them. But yeah, that's horrible, Yeah, horrible, horrible, horrible guy. Just I think people like him think they can get away with anything. Investigators were afraid that with no clear cause of death, they wouldn't have enough evidence to convict Madson from murder. Madson's friends, volunteers, and interns were forced to confront their relationship with Peter. Many of his friends didn't believe he was capable of such a horrible crime and defended him vigorously, but as the evidence mounted against him, they were forced to reconcile the two different versions of Peter Madson. He had been their leader, mentor, and friend, and they had devoted so much of themselves to the vision of a madman. That must have been really hard for those people to recogile. Initially they were like, he couldn't have done this, but then yeah, yeah,

52:21 no, he did it. On January sixteenth, twenty eighteen, Madson was indicted for sexual crimes, dismemberment, desecration of a grave, crimes against maritime law, and homicide that took place with prior planning and preparation. It was learned that Madson brought a saw knife, sharpened screwdrivers, straps, zip ties, and pipes aboard the ship so I board the submarine on August tenth. Prosecutors believe Matson bound, beat and stabbed Kim before killing her, possibly by choking her or cutting her throat. It was later learned he had slept next to Kim's hapitated body before throwing her remains into the sea. Oh my god, man, the murder of Kim Wall's was deeply upsetting to the people of Denmark. It has been difficult for them to fathom the grizzly crime and to imagine someone is highly regarded as Peter Madsen responsible for them. Matson's biography Rocket Madsen, written by Danish writer Thomas Jersing. It was pulled from stores after it came under criticism, and he had hoped to write another volume.

53:28 I really wanted to read it, but I couldn't find it. Before his trial, a judge ordered Matson to have a psychiatric evaluation. The results weren't made public, but at the trial it was disclosed that he was diagnosed as a psychopath and a malignant narcissist. I'm sure you're shocked. I'm not shocked at all. He was found to have a serious lack of empathy, guilt or remorse, and called personally deviant. The trial began on March eighth, twenty eighteen. Matson was tried for murder and decent handling of a corpse and sexual assault due to the stabbings in her vaginal area. During the trial, Peter tried floating a new theory as to how Kim had died. He claimed she died from carbon monoxide poisoning from exhaust fumes in the engine room aboard the vessel while he was on the deck making a repair, He claimed the air pressure dropped, suddenly, filling the engine room with exhaust, and he wasn't able to open the hatch. When he finally did, he found Kim unconscious.

54:24 Matson said he lied to protect the walls. The gruesome truth, Hey when they say that? Beheading girl and agony were among Google searches found on Peter's phone. The searches were done just prior to kimboarding the submarine. Text messages were found on his phone telling other women about his desire to dismember a woman on his submarine. Although semen was found in Madsen's underwear, no proof of rape was ever found. Thirty six witnesses were called during the seven week trial, among them four women who testified that Matson had invited them aboard his submarine in August before contacting Kim Wall. Oh my god, those women must have I can't even imagine they thought. They really had a hard time processing that. Yeah, and he didn't care who he killed, He just wanted to tell someone. Madsen's wife was excused from testifying against him. She did attend the trial, but divorced him soon after. Kim's boyfriend and mother gave heartbreaking testimony. Ten former interns and volunteers testified against Madsen. The prosecution admitted that Kim's cause of death was undetermined, but it was intentional and sexually motivated.

55:32 They guessed that Madsen bound Kim before splitting her throat or strangling her. The most damning evidence against Madson was the violent videos on his phone and his Internet searches. He was found guilty on all counts by a panel of three judges and sentenced to life in prison, which is rarely used in Denmark. A life sentence is about sixteen years for twelve years that convicted can request a parole hearing. Really, sentences can be extended for violent criminals. Mads and sentence will most likely be lengthened. I think I think they should rename that instead of Probably shouldn't be called life in prison if it's only twelve years. In twenty eighteen, Jenny Kerpin, a Russian activist, artist and journalists, sought out a relationship with Madsen. She has a Russian exile who lives in Finland. They married on December nineteenth, twenty nineteen, in the prison where he resides. She wrote in a post on her Facebook page, quote, my husband committed a horrible crime, and he has punished for that. However, knowing him for real gives me an exclusive right to say that I am lucky to be with them. Sorry, I'm starting to feel conscious. The most beautiful, smart, talented, devoted, and empathetic person I've ever met.

56:43 My husband is one of two victims of his crime, and staying alive was a punishment itself for him. Okay whatever. They divorced. In January twenty twenty twenty two. After their divorced, Jenny said quote, we spent almost three years together, which feels like ten in the condition we were given. It was a wonderful and terrible time. It took a lot from me, but gave me a lot too. I still respect my ex husband and wish him happiness, new achievements, and as good a future as possible in this hard situation. In twenty eighteen, Madsen was briefly hospitalized after he was assaulted by another inmate that inmates should have tried harder. It was well known that Madsen was a high risk prisoner because of his intelligent intelligence, industriousness, and violent tendencies. He was mostly kept in isolation, but somehow. In twenty twenty, Peter fabricated a gun he threatened to guard and escaped from prison.

57:38 He abducted a female prison psychologist and held her hostage. He had a relationship with someone in the prison. I'm not sure if it was psychologist or it was a guard, but he forced her into a prison van and made her drive through the prison gates. Madsen was soon found half a mile away from the prison, but it was discovered when law enforcement attempted to capture him he was wearing a belt that he had created out of explosives. He was handcuffed to a fence while they waited for the bomb squad to arrive. Once they did, it was determined the belt was not made of real explosives. Because your face, I'm just like, this story is just blowing my mind. I know. After his Shenanigans, an additional twenty one months was added to his sentence. Extra chime won't be added to his sentence necessarily, but he will not be able to request parole for an additional twenty one months.

58:29 So when will he be able to request parole, I'm not sure. In twenty twenty one, Denmark passed a new bill for prisoners of serving life sentences that limits their contact and correspondence to only people they had known before their prisons sentence. After it was learned a seventeen year old girl fell in love with Peter Madsen after writing to him online. Oh God yeah. Danish prisons, by the way, are less authoritarian than in the US. Prisoners are allowed to wear their own clothing, cook their own meals, and have more personal freedom. Drugs and inmate fighting are common, but allowed to happen. Recidivism is as low as twenty seven percent, compared to about seventy seven percent for convicts in the US over five years. The autonomy offered in Danish prisons make prisoners feel more humane and hopeful. In the United States, convicts have nothing to look forward to and less reason to follow the rules. Scandinavian prisons believe in reforming, while US prisons believe in punishing. Denmark does have a much lower crime rate. They average about fifty homicides a year, or one per one hundred thousand people, and the US. The US had about twenty thousand homicides last year, or six per one hundred thousand. So I think the way that they do the prisons there, it just sounds like maybe too much freedom. But I think, well, I'm not like I agree with a lot of you know, I think they are approach because I do. I

1:00:00 do think prisons in the US are more about punishment less about rehabilitation. But at the same time, if you commit a crime like he did, like to be able to get out in thirteen years or whatever it's gonna end up being that just seems insane to me. But also the severe the amount of severe crimes there, like that's their worst, the worst crime that's ever happened there. Yeah, And here there's a lot more crime and the crimes are more intense, So I can kind of understand how people would think that, you know, yeah, they're more rehabilitatable because their crimes are less severe, right, and just the amount of people and it's just mind boggling. But our prisons definitely could do with something. We could do use some reform, for sure. There have been several film projects about Peter Madsen and Kim Wall.

1:00:46 Filmmaker Robert Fox made a documentary about Madison called My Private Submarine in two thousand and nine. I couldn't find it after that documentary though, that's when he kind of became an anti establishment hero. In twenty sixteen, document mentory called Amateurs and Space highlighted the breakdown of the relationship between Madsen and von Begston and the only version I could find was on YouTube and it wasn't subtitle so Into the Deep The Submarine Murderer, a documentary by Australian Emma Sullivan, was called Instrumental in the conviction of Madson. Peter Matson had agreed to allow Emma Sullivan to make a documentary about RML Space Lab and the day's leading up to the launch of their rocket, when the focus on the documentary shifted from the inventor site of Madson to the criminal acts and the disappearance of Kim Wall.

1:01:37 It premiered at the Sundance Film Festival in twenty twenty and I did watch that. I believe it was on Netflix and it was. It was very good. It was really compelling because you could you could kind of just see the breakdown of the man. Yeah, The Investigation, which I had talked about before, is available on HBO Max. It's a Danish mini mini series that portrays the investigation into Kim's death very accurately. Her parents and detective Jens Moeller cooperated in the making of the series. Peter Matson is not mentioned by name, which I loved. He was only referred to as the accused. The Wall's dog appears as himself though is the series. They really love their dog. They live in a beautiful, you know, seaside area. They took their very They took their dog in a lot of therapeutic walks during their time Ingrid and Joaquim Wall wrote a book called A Silenced Voice. It's an emotional account of the days following the disappearance and death of Kim, interspersed with anecdotes from Kim's childhood up to her career her recent career. The Walls were very proud of their daughter and devastated by her death, and have done the best to honor her memory and perpetuate her legacy. I read the book and it was very emotional. Yeah, I can imagine the most important thing to Kim's parents is that she is remembered not as a victim of Peter Matson, but is a lively spirited, hardworking journalists dedicated to telling important stories. They created the Kim Wall Memorial Fund in Kim's honor after her death. Some days it

1:03:09 was the only thing that kept them going, keeping Kim's memory alived. For the past five years, they have awarded several female journalists with the Cash Prize who possess a desire to travel and pursue unique and hidden stories like Kim. The Walls have received over four hundred thousand dollars in donations around the globe in Kim's memory. Ingrid and Joachim are thrilled that Kim's legacy will continue to live beyond their lifetimes for decades to come. Columbia University, one of Kim's alma maters, has a scholarship in her name, and the Overseas Press Club of America has established an award in Kim's honor. Kim has also received several posthumous awards for her work. And you and I we didn't talk about this at the top, I don't think, but we have decided to use at least twenty five percent of our Patreon proceeds to donate to different causes. Yeah, and I think we'll donate to causes that we talk about our That's what I talked, and it would be just a great honor to donate to this fund for me. Yep, for sure, Okay, wrapping up. Ola lives in Copenhagen, where he is co owner and developer of a company called a flat Robot. He also works as a game and interaction interaction design expert at Seriously Playful. He wrote an essay in a Danish publication and talked about how hard it was to lose Kim when they were about to embark on a journey together, intertwining their lives in China. The Nautilus was destroyed, which is great, should have been, but those people who were so hard on it must have it must have been tough for them. Police worked really hard,

1:04:40 or I should say the divers worked really hard to find the Kim's phone in Peter's phone, because I thought there would have been a ton of evidence, but they were not able to find them. Police have used Madsen's DNA to tie him to try to tie him to other crimes against women in Sweden and Denmark, but so far they have found no link. Because yeah, you would think that's start her c exactly. Yeah, so it's possible, but so far they haven't found a link. At a memorial at Columbia University for Kim. Her brother wrote, I'm going to have you read it because I keep crying. They say that the pen is mightier than the sword, and they might be right. But for Kim, her pen was her sword, and she used her sword not for violence, but for something far more powerful. For telling stories. Armed with nothing but her wits, a notepad, and her trusted Japanese gel inked ballpoint pen, she gave a voice to those who had something important to say. She will never write a single word ever again, but others might, and that's exactly how we should remember and honor her, by remembering the words that she wrote, what she stood for and what she believed in, and striving to follow in her footsteps. Thank you, that's very nice. I almost get you did. I mean, she was just such an amazing young woman. I'm just proud to do this story in her honor. The pen. I bought the pen I forgot to bring it today, but her favorite pen, which she loved. These pens so much, she would just give them to people. But they're called mugie pens.

1:06:09 M u j I I got them on Amazon. I didn't love the pen, but I'm guessing there's different versions. I didn't love it either, but I'm hoping there's like a one that is a little bit like more rollie. Yeah, it was kind of like a yeah that you had too much drag to it. Yeah. We have very strong opinions about pens and Okay, so now let's discuss a few things. Okay, Kim has received criticism, and that's just what. Well, why did people were like, why did she go down into his submarine? Why was she wearing a skirt? Yeah, isn't that disgusting? It is? And a Danish Danish author Jen's Christian Grondahl said, commenting on a photo of Kim on Matson submarine, quote, it's never the woman's fault if a man decides to at hacker. But that said, well, when I look at the picture of the victim, the way she has let herself be photographed, the look she gives the camera, I can't help but think that this is a girl who's looking for trouble.

1:07:11 Jesus, isn't that horrible? That is horrible? They were disgusting. Rumors that Kim and Peter were having an affair. No, no, that they had met the first time that day It's just bothers me so much. People commented that she shouldn't she should have worn pants, which is again ridiculous. And the timing, the time. The timing is one thing that I just bought mind boggling to me because it's literally like the next day or two he was supposed to launch the rocket, and why would he take any chances of Yeah, though that I mean, obviously he's a sick person and he's a psychopath, but just the fact that he was such a high profile person and to do this to kill someone else who was fairly high profile, also just really mind boggling. I know, it just seems so self what's the word, I'm destructive? I mean just completely destructive, like it's like the pinnacle of your career. But I think that he the nugget is that he knew this rocket was not going to launch, was part of it, and he just was ready to self destructive. Yeah, I guess. And there's he has, Like he had a blog. I couldn't really find much about the blog, but in the blog he talked a lot about heaven and hell and how it's a human being you want to live in both and he wanted to experience the ultimate hell, and I guess he achieved that. Yeah, and we talked about this a little bit earlier. But the number of people

1:08:42 who worked for Peter to make his vision become a reality, they just must have been so devastated because they really didn't believe in him. They were volunteers, your volunteers, and they sacrificed a lot of theirs themselves. And to see those projects get destroyed, they probably just went across the street and worked for Copenhagen's suborbitals. And the irony of Peter building a small, enclosed you know, his inventions were all small and enclosed, and now he's in prison, it's little a little bit ironic. Well at the door or the prisons in Denmark are much like a dorm. They look they look pretty, they look pretty nice. Actually, yeah, that's it. That is a story of Kim Wall. Well, that story blew my mind. I have to say, I don't know, I can't believe it wasn't already familiar with it at all, but just what a crazy story it really is. And thank you so much to to Dianna for recommending that Casey, and just so yeah, I mean we've said it before, but it's just so sad, like she was such a great person and had so much potential to do so much more with their life. Yeah, I'll put pictures of her, but in her pictures you just I mean, she's you saw a few pictures and she's just you know, you could tell from her picture like just an a builliant, beautiful young woman who just really lovely. I have a lot of sources, will post them. But I did read the Walls book, and I really it was really very poignant, cool, but that's all I have.

1:10:13 Well, thank you for telling that story. Well done, as always well every time. And I need I need to, like I need to harness this a little bit. But I thought I was done a week ago, but then I discovered the Walls Book and then I discovered like this sixth part minis and I was like, well, I need to watch these and so yeah, it's it's hard because I really want to consume as much as I can, but it's hard to do it in a timely manner. Yep, Well you did a great job. We'll rest in peace, Kim, because I am so excited to be able to contribute to her fund to journalism moving forward, yep, for sure. All right, well, what are we going to do the rest of our day? Labor day? You have the day off, I'm gonna labor and he did do some work. You've been a busy fellow. Yeah, it works a little bit stressful at the moment leading up to this Paris trip. But yeah, I think you're gonna go out and do a little shopping with our daughter. Maybe. Yeah, I guess you're not going to come with no stay home and get some work done.

1:11:11 All right, Well that's all I have, so find us on Patreon, find us at on Instagram. Got some things to work out. We're not really sure what we're going to do with the Patreon. I'm hoping to have an episode post, if not the next week but soon. Yeah, sit the Patreon. They won't be as in depth and they won't be as long because I spend four hundreds on an episode, so I won't be able to do that, but it'll hopefully still be good episode. It's good cases and if there's something you guys want to here, I have a long list of things that I'm working through. If you recommend a case, if I can find enough information or if you can find enough information, We like to do them, but sometimes it's we just can't find enough information for it.

1:11:56 And if you've got feedback on what you'd like to what you'd like to see the Patreon also, we're definitely open to ideas of what we can you know, any content we can deliver, anything that would be interesting to folks. Yeah, well, thank you so much for listening. We appreciate every one of you, We really do, and we're going to keep saying this, but I can't believe it's been a year almost and we're planning especially anniversary episodes. So if you have any questions for us, we will answer some questions. If you have any favorite episodes or our memories or whatever, send that our way. You can email us at Love Mary Kill at gmail dot com. You can direct message us on Twitter or Instagram Twitter Twitter is no is anyone going to continue to call it X I mean, I think it's always going to be Twitter run threads, just like Max is always going to be HBO. We could go into a whole thing on branding, but let's not do that today. Rich is a marketing expert, all right, Well, until the next day. We love you guys, don't kill your husband don't kill your wife. Hi, I'm Tina and I'm rich. It's been a

1:13:46 while him. Hi, I'm Tina and i'm rich. Serious, like you remember what we say