Jan. 19, 2026

Reeva Steenkamp and Oscar Pistorius - Part 3 of 3

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On February 14, 2013 — Valentine’s Day — the world was stunned by the news that South African Olympic athlete Oscar Pistorius had shot and killed his girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp, inside his home in Pretoria. What followed was one of the most closely watched criminal trials of the 21st century — a case that forced the public to grapple with uncomfortable questions about celebrity, justice, gender-based violence, and how much of a public figure’s private life we ever truly see.

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Today's snack: South African picnic bread

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Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina.

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If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of.

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Marriage, some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Tina, Hey Rich, welcome back. Yeah,

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we're right back where we were a couple of hours ago.

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It's been a while since we've done a three part episode.

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We really get to spend a lot of quality time

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together when we do three part episodes.

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And some not so quality time. Where's my room shot?

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Yes, it's funny. I don't know if it's out wrong button.

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Oh there you go.

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Oh gosh. Three part episodes are grueling for everyone.

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They are grueling.

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Yeah, there is a lot to cover here.

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Well, sometimes when we start art recording an episode, we

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don't actually know if it's going to be two or

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three parts, and in this case, I was estimating that

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it might be two parts, but it really turned out

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there was a lot to talk about. And so you

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kind of saved my bacon by creating a snack for

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this part because I was not prepared with a snack.

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And look at my face. Was I happy about that?

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Because you literally told me at the end of episode two,

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and it's the same day.

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Yeah, so I said I'll do it, and then I didn't.

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And then I had to break my New Year's resolution

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because I was like, I was going to make something

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for dinner, and then I said I wasn't going to

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do takeout the months of January. It wasn't going to

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eat sugar. I don't know who I think I am

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all of a sudden, I have such a dreamer, some resolve.

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But yeah, so anyway, you were now that I had

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to make this for you. Now you have to go

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get me takeout when we're done.

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Okay, I can do that. While you were making that,

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I actually took a little nap, so I'm yeah.

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And I also did launder. But hey, no problem, it's all.

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It all works out in the end. The woman is

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over worked and always tired and grumpy and the men

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wonder why.

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But anyway, well, I appreciate you.

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Oh that makes it all better. I feel so warm inside.

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Thank you so much. I appreciate you too, that's sure.

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Do yep, that's a good thing. I can't recognize, Sarcastle.

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So you've already shirked on our contract negotiations that we

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resolved in the previous episode. It is not a frosty

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beverage here at all. Actually, my water bottle is almost

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empty and I'm part of.

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You are.

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Oh my god, I'm the worst person in the world.

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I think that today is going to be a solo episode,

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so see you later.

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I didn't take all the ice, but there's not a lot.

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Oh my god, everyone knows there are used tobacle and yeah,

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it's ridiculous. I was going to say a bad word.

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Well I will just say I did not agree to

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our contract negotiations. Oh there's a little bit left. I'll

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go get you some. God, I'll be right back.

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Okay, this is going to affect the quality of the show.

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It's going way out.

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Well, would you like to reveal what you were working

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so hard to make in the kitchen?

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Sure, because I didn't want to go to the store

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because we really didn't have time because we lived two

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hundred miles away from the nearest thing to the store.

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I made you South African picnic bread.

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Oh wow, you actually made something like you worked hard

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and made something from scratch rather than just I would

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have just pulled a bag of chips out of the

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cupboard or something.

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Well, I wanted to do something South African and I

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found this recipe and I was like, okay, we have

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everything that it takes pretty much, and I think it's

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a pretty interesting recipe. Oh okay, So it's like a bread,

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but it's very eggy. There's egg, cheese, bacon, and onions

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in it and you mix it all together. There's very

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little flour in it. The eggs are what binds it

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all together.

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Okay, that sounds really good.

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But I think it's something that would be great for

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breakfast because there's a lot of eggs, a lot of

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breads and stuff in it. So if you're a busy

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person taking the kids to school, you know, I think

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it's a great thing to grab really quick. But let's

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try it first. Let's do it. Did you like the

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picnic bread.

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I thought it was really good. Yeah, it is very eggy.

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It's almost like eating an omelet, but like with the

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sort of bread, you know, binding the omelet together, but

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a really good flavor like the bacon and cheese and.

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The onion is a little strong in it. I have

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to the recipe because it made two loaves and we

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don't need two loaves of this sitting around but yeah,

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I thought it was really good other than the egg

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or not the egg, but the onion was a little strong, yeah,

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especially spring onions, and we didn't have spring onions, so

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I just used yellow onion.

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Well, it's pretty amazing that you whipped this up with

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little mourning.

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Oh so it's just flattered. Whatever you are. Truly saved

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your butt once again.

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And a nice presentation too, with the little clementine on

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the side and a little strawberry candy too.

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Well, I'm happy to help.

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I can tell how about we continue the story of

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Reva Steincamp and Oscar Pistorius.

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Good idea.

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How about a quick recap?

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In part two, we talked about Oscar and Reva's short

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relationship just three and a half months before she was killed.

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We heard a text exchange between the two of them

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two weeks before her death that showed the cracks in

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their relationship, and we walked through the night that Oscar

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shot Riva four times through a door in the bathroom

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of his house. Oscar claimed he thought it was an intruder,

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but he was immediately arrested and charged with premeditated murder.

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Public opinion in South Africa was mostly against Oscar. Though

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many could relate to his extreme fear of crime, he

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was released on bail and lived comfortably. That's an understatement

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in his uncle's mansion while awaiting trial.

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Yeah, I think most of us would pay good money

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to live in the environment that Oscar was living in

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during that time.

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Sounded like a very nice house.

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Yeah.

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Anything else that that was a very brief recap. Anything

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else that jumps out at you that we should mention

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before we get into part three.

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Between parts two and three, you sent me a bunch

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of pictures to post and Riva was just a beautiful

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just stumming. Yeah, she was studying.

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Unlike the United States, South Africa does not use juries

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in criminal trials. The jury system was abolished in nineteen

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sixty nine during apartheid after the government acknowledged an uncomfortable

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truth an all white jury could not be trusted to

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fairly judge black defendants. Even after apartheid ended, juries were

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never reinstated. With eleven official languages and a population made

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up of many races, religions, and cultures, South Africa chose

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a different path, placing decisions of guilt or innocence in

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the hands of highly trained judges. Rather than attempting to

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assemble juries that could never truly be free of bias.

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That meant the judge assigned to Oscar Pistorius's case would

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wield extraordinary power. One person alone would decide his guilt

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or innocence on each of the charges he faced. Both

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the prosecution and the defense waited anxiously to see who

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that would be. The case was assigned to Thoka Zella Masipa.

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Her background was remarkable. Born just a year before apartheid

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laws were formally codified by the ruling National Party, Oka Zella,

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known as Tilly in her youth, grew up in a

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society designed to limit opportunities for black South Africans, and

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especially for black women. She was the first of ten children,

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raised in a two room house in Soweto. Five of

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her siblings died in childhood. For thirteen years, she slept

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on the floor beneath the family's kitchen table, the girls

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confined to one room, the boys to the other, until

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she earned a chance to attend boarding school in nineteen

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seventy four, at age twenty four. She finished college with

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a degree in social work, focusing on women in the

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townships who were navigating poverty, abuse and domestic violence. In

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nineteen seventy six, at the height of the Sowetto uprisings,

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she became a journalist for the World Newspaper, a black

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publication critical of the apartheid regime. During that period, she

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was arrested while protesting government efforts to suppress the press.

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While imprisoned, Massipa and other women journalists refused orders to

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clean toilets, asserting their status as political prisoners. They also

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refused to enter please in court, rejecting the legitimacy of

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the apartheid government altogether. She later became women's page editor

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at the Post, the first black woman to ever hold

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that role. While working as a journalist and raising a family,

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Messipa studied law part time, a journey that took her

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ten years. She earned her law degree in nineteen ninety,

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the same year Nelson Mandela was released from prison. After

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seven years practicing law, she was appointed to the bench

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in nineteen ninety eight, becoming only the second black woman

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ever knew aimed a High Court judge in South Africa.

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Even years later, she remained part of a small minority.

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By the time of the Pistorius trial, just seventy six

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of the country's two hundred and thirty nine judges were women.

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On the bench, Masipa had a formidable reputation. She was

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widely described as a tough cookie, direct, unsentimental, and impatient

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with nonsense. She was also known for being particularly hard

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on men who victimized women. To many observers, her appointment

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to Oscar Pistorius's case felt symbolic, almost poetic. A dignified

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black woman who had once slept on the floor of

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a sowetto shack was now tasked with deciding the fate

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of a wealthy, world famous white athlete. For a country

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still reckoning with its past, the symmetry was impossible to ignore.

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In the weeks leading up to trial, prosecutors added three

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additional charges to Oscar Pistorius's indictment. All were violations of

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South Africa's Firearms Control Act, and none were directly related

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to the shooting of Riva Steam Camp. The first charge

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stemmed from an incident in which Oscar allegedly fired his

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pistol through the open sun roof of a moving car

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while driving with two friends, one of them his then girlfriend,

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Samantha Taylor. The second involved the negligent discharge of a

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firearm inside a crowded restaurant, the episode that had narrowly

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avoided serious injury that we talked about in part two.

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He made his friend take the huge for that.

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Yeah, exactly. The third charge alleged that at the time

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of Reva's death, Oscar was in possession of several rounds

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of ammunition for which he did not hold a valid license.

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Taken together, the purpose of these charges was clear. Prosecutors

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were attempting to establish a pattern an ongoing disregard for

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firearm safety. So these charges, it's odd that they were

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added to his murder indictment because they really weren't related

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at all to that. I think the prosecution just they

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just wanted to make the case that this was a

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who was careless and reckless. Oscar's legal team was deeply concerned. Privately,

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his lawyers urged him to plead guilty to at least

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one of the weapons charges. Doing so, they believed, would

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demonstrate accountability and remorse. It would allow Oscar to appear

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candid and cooperative, qualities that might lend credibility to his

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claim that Riva's death had been a tragic accident. But

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Oscar refused. He insisted the sun roof shooting never happened.

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He maintained that the restaurant discharge was a freak accident,

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and he claimed the unlicensed ammunition found in his home

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belonged to his father, Henke Pistorius, who did have a

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license for it. Oscar would not concede a single point.

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He entered pleas of not guilty on all charges. On

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February fourteenth, twenty fourteen, the one year anniversary of Riva's death,

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and just two weeks before the start of his trial,

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Oscar released a public statement, No words can adequately capture

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my feelings about the devas stating accident that has caused

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such heartache for everyone who truly loved and continues to

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love Reva. The pain and sadness, especially for Riva's parents,

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family and friends, consumes me with sorrow. The loss of

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Reva and the complete trauma of that day I will

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carry with me for the rest of my life. It

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was the last time Oscar Pistorius would speak publicly before

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the trial began. Oscar's in a really weird position here

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because he admitted that he shot her, but he also

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has to try to make the case that it was

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an accident, so he wants to come across as very apologetic,

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but at the same time, he can't really admit anything

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beyond it being a tragic accident. From that point forward,

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the story would no longer be shaped by statements or speculation,

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but by sworn testimony, cross examination, and evidence laid bare

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in open court.

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The trial of Oscar Pistorius began on March third, twenty fourteen,

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just over a year after Reva's death. Outside the courthouse,

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crowds gathered in protest and anticipation inside the courtroom was packed.

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In an historic decision, Judge Messepa ruled that the trial

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could be televised live, the first time a criminal trial

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in South African history would be broadcast in real time.

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There were limits, though witnesses could choose not to appear

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on camera. The public appetite was enormous. A new pay

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TV channel was launched to carry the proceedings around the clock.

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It quickly became known as the Oscar Channel. But the

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outcome of the trial would not be a simple question

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of guilty or not guilty. Judge Messepa had several legal

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options when it came to Reva's death. An outright acquittal

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was technically possible, but few believed it was realistic. Oscar

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had admitted firing the shots that killed Reva. At the

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top end was murder with premeditation. To secure that conviction,

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prosecutors would have to prove that Oscar had formed a

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conscious plan to kill Reva before pulling the trigger. A

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conviction carried a mandatory minimum sentence of twenty five years

259
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in prison. This was the charge the state was pushing

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hardest for. At the other extreme was culpable homicide, roughly

261
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equivalent to manslaughter in the United States. This would mean

262
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that the court found the killing to be negligent rather

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than intentional. The sentencing range here was broad, anything from

264
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a suspended sentence or a community service to a maximum

265
00:14:32.120 --> 00:14:35.399
of fifteen years in prison. This was the best case

266
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outcome Oscar's defense team was hoping for. Between those two

267
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was the most debated charge, murder without premeditation, known in

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South Africa law as dolus e ventualis. Under Dolus eventualis,

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the prosecution would not need to prove that Oscar specifically

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intended to kill Reva. They would only need to show

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that he fired his weapon knowing there was a real

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00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:02.279
possibility that whoever was behind the door would die, and

273
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that he proceeded anyway. In other words, the question was

274
00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:08.399
not who he believed he was shooting at, but whether

275
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he subjectively foresaw that firing four shots into a small,

276
00:15:12.679 --> 00:15:17.159
enclosed space would likely be fatal. A conviction on Dolus

277
00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:21.279
eventualis required a prison sentence, but still allowed the judge

278
00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:26.240
considerable discretion in determining its length. Most South African legal

279
00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:30.879
analysts believed this middle ground murder without premeditation was the

280
00:15:30.919 --> 00:15:34.840
most likely outcome. As the cameras rolled and the testimony began,

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the trial would hinge on a single, deceptively simple question,

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what did Oscar Pistorius believe in those seconds before he

283
00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:46.159
pulled the trigger. The state's best chance of proving murder

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00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:49.879
with conscious premeditation rested on the closest thing it had

285
00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:53.759
to eyewitnesses, neighbors who said they were awakened that night

286
00:15:53.799 --> 00:15:58.240
by gunshots and screaming. The prosecution's goal was straightforward. If

287
00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:02.440
witnesses could establish that there was arguing, raised voices, yelling,

288
00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:06.240
or distress before the shots were fired, it would directly

289
00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:10.159
contradict Oscar's claim that he fired in panic, believing an

290
00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:13.840
intruder was hiding in the bathroom. Four neighbors were called

291
00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:17.600
to testify. Michelle Berger and her husband Charles Johnson, who

292
00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:20.679
lived roughly two hundred yards away, separated by a high

293
00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:24.799
wall in a neighboring estate, Astelle Vandermere, who lived about

294
00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:28.639
one hundred yards away, Johann Stip and his wife Annette Stip,

295
00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:32.799
who lived approximately seventy five yards from Oscar's house. The

296
00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:35.960
problem for the prosecution was that the testimony did not

297
00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:39.559
line up. Michelle Berger testified that she woke around three

298
00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:43.000
am to what she described as terrible screams from a woman.

299
00:16:43.399 --> 00:16:46.679
She said she then heard a man crying for help,

300
00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:49.919
followed by more screams from the woman. After that, she

301
00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:53.320
heard a single gunshot, a pause, and then three more

302
00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:57.200
gunshots in quick succession. Between these shots, she said she

303
00:16:57.320 --> 00:17:01.960
heard one final scream from the woman, then silence. So

304
00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:05.720
Michelle lives the furthest away from these other witnesses.

305
00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:07.720
It's quite a ways a way too, if you think

306
00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.039
about two hundred yards and separated by a high wall

307
00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:14.359
between her house and Oscar's house.

308
00:17:14.599 --> 00:17:17.440
I remember you said that Oscar slept with fans because

309
00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:21.319
he didn't like the air conditioning. Were the windows open well.

310
00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:24.599
The fans were in like a sliding doorwall, and that

311
00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:27.920
was open until he moved the fans and closed the

312
00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:28.359
door wall.

313
00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:33.759
Her husband, Charles Johnson, largely corroborated her account. In fact,

314
00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:38.440
Oscar's defense team suggested your testimony was too similar, implying

315
00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:42.079
that they may have rehearsed it together. Johnson also testified

316
00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:45.880
that he called the estate's security company at three sixteen am,

317
00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:50.799
immediately after hearing the shots. That detail became critical because

318
00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:55.920
Oscar's first confirmed phone call wasn't made until three nineteen am.

319
00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:59.400
The defense argued that the timeline simply didn't work. In

320
00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:02.759
three minute, They said Oscar was moving on his stumps,

321
00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:06.319
could not have fired the shots, retrieved his prosthetic legs,

322
00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:09.000
broken down the bathroom door with a cricket bat, and

323
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:14.920
then placed his first call. Stel Vandermir's testimony introduced more uncertainty.

324
00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:18.480
She said she woke up shortly before two a m.

325
00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:21.359
More than an hour before the shooting, to the sound

326
00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:24.599
of fighting in a nearby house, but she couldn't identify

327
00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:28.079
the voices, the language being spoken, or even which house

328
00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:31.559
the sounds were coming from. She later heard four gunshots

329
00:18:31.559 --> 00:18:35.079
around three a m. But, unlike Berger and Johnson, she

330
00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:38.839
did not hear any pause between them after the shots.

331
00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:42.400
Vandermere testified that there was a period of silence followed

332
00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:45.880
by loud crying. She believed it was a woman's voice.

333
00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:49.119
The defense seized on that point there was no way

334
00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:51.960
Reva could have been screaming after the shots. They argued

335
00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:56.960
Oscar's own sobbing, high pitched, frantic, and desperate, had likely

336
00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:01.319
been mistaken for a woman's cries. Doctor Johann Stipp and

337
00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:04.160
his wife, who were the closest to the house, offered

338
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:08.000
yet another version. Both testified they were awakened by three

339
00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:12.079
loud bangs they believed were gunshots. Only after that did

340
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:15.759
they hear screaming, which they initially thought sounded like a woman.

341
00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:19.200
Stip looked out his window, saw lights on in Oscar's

342
00:19:19.240 --> 00:19:23.039
home and observed a figure moving inside. He tried calling

343
00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:26.359
a state security but got a busy signal, then phoned

344
00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:29.640
the police. While still on the call, he heard two

345
00:19:29.720 --> 00:19:33.640
or three more rapid, louder bangs stepping onto his balcony.

346
00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:37.480
He then heard a man shouting repeatedly, help, help, Help.

347
00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:41.039
As the testimony unfolded, and his phone records were mapped

348
00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:46.000
against it. Several things became clear. One, Oscar's anguish cries

349
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:49.119
after discovering Riva had been shot were high pitched and

350
00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:53.559
easily mistaken for a woman's screams. Two, some witnesses likely

351
00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:56.519
confused the sound of gunshots with the noise of Oscar

352
00:19:56.599 --> 00:20:00.799
smashing down the bathroom door using a cricket bat. And three,

353
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:04.799
no witness could definitively place an argument or shouting before

354
00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:08.480
the shots were fired. Perhaps most damaging to the prosecution

355
00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:12.400
was who didn't testify. The state chose not to call

356
00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:15.960
three additional neighbors, black residents who actually lived closer to

357
00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:19.759
Oscar's home than any of the witnesses they presented. One

358
00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:22.240
of them had a balcony just thirty six feet away

359
00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:25.759
from Oscar's home. When it was the defense's turn, those

360
00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:29.519
neighbors were called, their accounts aligned far more closely with

361
00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:34.160
Oscar's version of events. Gunshots followed quickly by high pitched wailing,

362
00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:38.640
frantic please, and desperate cries of help, help, help, and please,

363
00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:43.000
please please. Instead of proving premeditation, the states eye witnessed

364
00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:47.559
testimony had done something else. Entirely. It introduced doubt, and

365
00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:50.119
in a case that would turn on what oscar pistory

366
00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:53.000
is believed, in a matter of seconds, doubt mattered.

367
00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:56.960
So this testimony from the neighbors is interesting because, as

368
00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:00.000
we talk about a lot, eyewitness testimony is not always

369
00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:01.680
is that reliable.

370
00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:04.000
Right, it's the least reliable testimony.

371
00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:06.799
Yeah, they do, and a lot of their testimony conflicted

372
00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:09.720
with each other about different aspects of it. There was

373
00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:11.759
a lot of detail I didn't really get into here

374
00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:14.759
because it got it got kind of hard to follow

375
00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:17.000
in a lot of ways. But the one thing was

376
00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:19.559
that the phone calls that were made at different times,

377
00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:21.960
like some of the neighbors made phone calls, those were

378
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:25.720
verifiable that Okay, this call happened at this exact time,

379
00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:26.559
and it.

380
00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:29.240
Was interesting that the phone was busy when you knew

381
00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:31.200
one of the other neighbors must have been calling too.

382
00:21:31.480 --> 00:21:34.200
Yeah, that too, And so there were there were things

383
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:37.440
that they could really discover from those phone calls, and

384
00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:40.880
it just it didn't match up with the fact that

385
00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:44.119
there was an argument before the gunshots. There was nothing

386
00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:47.480
that could really show that there truly was an argument before.

387
00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:50.079
Ok that makes a difference, it does.

388
00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:59.640
We'll be back after a break. One of the most

389
00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:04.039
anti dissipated witnesses for the prosecution was Samantha Taylor, Oscar's

390
00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:08.200
former girlfriend. On paper, Samantha was there to testify about

391
00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:12.039
one of the firearms charges, specifically the allegation that Oscar

392
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:14.400
had fired a gun through the open sun roof of

393
00:22:14.440 --> 00:22:17.599
a moving car while she was present, but in reality

394
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:21.119
her testimony served a broader purpose. The state was using

395
00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:24.440
her to introduce character evidence that might support the murder

396
00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:28.640
charge itself. On the stand, Samantha described a relationship that

397
00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:33.079
she said was volatile and emotionally exhausting. Her account stood

398
00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:37.279
in sharp contrast to Oscar's carefully cultivated public image as

399
00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:41.359
a polite, soft spoken, nice guy. She testified that while

400
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:45.720
Oscar could be affectionate and generous, his mood could shift suddenly.

401
00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:49.960
Minor issues, she said, could trigger explosive anger when they

402
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:54.240
were apart. Samantha told the court Oscar demanded constant reassurance.

403
00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:57.000
He would insist she'd tell him where she was and

404
00:22:57.079 --> 00:23:00.759
what she was doing, and often required photographic proof to

405
00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:04.960
verify her location. She said he shouted abusive language at her.

406
00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:09.759
Reactions she described as wildly disproportionate to whatever had prompted them.

407
00:23:10.279 --> 00:23:13.200
Taken together, her testimony painted a picture of a man

408
00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:18.160
who struggled with control, jealousy, and emotional regulation, traits the

409
00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:21.400
prosecution argued were relevant to what happened on the night

410
00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:25.559
Reva Stemcamp was killed. Oscar's defense team moved quickly to

411
00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:29.599
undermine her credibility. They framed Samantha as a bitter ex

412
00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:34.559
girlfriend motivated by resentment and jealousy. Angry, they suggested that

413
00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:38.200
Oscar had moved on with Riva. Her testimony, they argued,

414
00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:43.119
was not objective recollection, but emotional retaliation. The court was

415
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:46.160
left to decide which version of Samantha Taylor to believe,

416
00:23:46.519 --> 00:23:50.359
a truthful witness describing a troubling pattern of behavior, or

417
00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:53.599
a spurned former partner with an axe to grind, and

418
00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:57.400
once again, the case came down to interpretation. About a

419
00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:00.200
month into the trial, the defense made a decision they

420
00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:03.640
had been dreading. They called Oscar Pastorius to the stand.

421
00:24:04.119 --> 00:24:07.720
His lawyers were deeply conflicted. They feared that Oscar would

422
00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:12.559
crumble under sustained cross examination, especially from the state's notoriously

423
00:24:12.599 --> 00:24:16.759
aggressive prosecutor, but they also felt they had no real alternative.

424
00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:20.160
If Oscar did not testify, it would signal a lack

425
00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:23.720
of confidence in his own explanation that he had genuinely

426
00:24:23.799 --> 00:24:27.960
mistaken Riva for an intruder. Oscar began his testimony by

427
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:31.359
reading a prepared apology addressed to Riva's.

428
00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:37.519
Family, Monday's peace. Start offer my evidence by tindering an apology.

429
00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:50.039
So apologize to to Friendsman.

430
00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:53.119
I don't like doing this too, but I can hardly hear.

431
00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:57.400
I figure, Pardie, I'll speaker. Then.

432
00:24:57.440 --> 00:24:58.799
There hasn't been a moment.

433
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:04.319
Since this tragedy happened that I haven't thoughts about your family.

434
00:25:05.079 --> 00:25:07.400
I wake up every morning. You the first people I

435
00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:10.400
think of, the first people I pray for. I can't

436
00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:14.519
imagine the pain and the sorrow and intimous love course

437
00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:19.480
to you and your family. I was simply trying to Protectreava.

438
00:25:20.359 --> 00:25:22.599
I can promise that when she went to bid that night,

439
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:26.960
she felt loved. I've tried to put my words on

440
00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:30.799
paper many many times, tough out to you, but no

441
00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:32.480
words to they were suffice.

442
00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:36.599
In here. He can barely hold it together. I didn't

443
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:38.359
really talk about it much in my script, but in

444
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:42.000
this trial he was a mess, like he was constantly

445
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:45.279
breaking down, crying, he was throwing up. They had to

446
00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:48.160
put a wastebasket near him because he would get sick.

447
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:51.400
And he was just he was just an emotional mess.

448
00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:54.400
The day after he made that statement in court, June

449
00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:58.079
Steencamp told the Daily Mirror, it left me unmoved. I

450
00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:00.799
knew it was coming. My lawyers had prepared me for it.

451
00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:03.920
I cried for the first time. Yes, but not because

452
00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:07.319
he apologized. I cried because of the suffering and agony

453
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:10.000
that my darling daughter went through, and because I will

454
00:26:10.039 --> 00:26:14.440
never have her again. As Oscar's testimony continued, he largely

455
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:16.960
repeated the same version of events he had given at

456
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:20.400
his bail hearing, but there were a few notable editions.

457
00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:22.839
He testified that when he got out of bed to

458
00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:26.720
move the fans on the balcony, Reva briefly spoke to him, saying,

459
00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:30.160
can't you sleep, my baba. He replied, no, I can't.

460
00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:34.279
Oscar said that brief exchange reinforced his belief that Riva

461
00:26:34.440 --> 00:26:36.559
was still in the bedroom when he later heard a

462
00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:39.119
noise down the hall. It's interesting that he left that

463
00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:42.680
out of his initial affidavit. You would think that would

464
00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:45.880
be a pretty important thing that I know, actually exchanged

465
00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:48.720
words with her, and that's why I thought she was

466
00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:49.799
still in bed.

467
00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:50.680
Good point.

468
00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:54.880
He also emphasized his vulnerability. When he heard movement in

469
00:26:54.920 --> 00:26:58.240
the toilet cubicle, he said he believed the person inside

470
00:26:58.359 --> 00:27:01.880
was about to come out. He was standing on his stumps,

471
00:27:01.960 --> 00:27:05.240
unable to run or physically defend himself. He said he

472
00:27:05.319 --> 00:27:07.880
fired his gun in fear. So that was another thing

473
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:10.200
he said is that when he was outside the bathroom door,

474
00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:13.599
he heard a noise come from inside that toilet cubicle.

475
00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:15.680
It was later speculated that I think there was a

476
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:19.200
magazine stand in there that Reva might have moved that

477
00:27:19.400 --> 00:27:21.160
or slid it or something like that, and that's what

478
00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:23.880
he heard. It had just triggered this reaction where he

479
00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:25.279
fired the gun at that point.

480
00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:28.519
Don't you think she would have said, like, Oscar's me,

481
00:27:28.599 --> 00:27:29.279
it's Reva.

482
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:31.759
That I think is one of the big questions in

483
00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:34.519
this case of whether she would have said something or

484
00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:35.279
not the.

485
00:27:35.240 --> 00:27:36.880
Defense or did he say something?

486
00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:37.559
Well, he was.

487
00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:42.200
Yelling, right, he was apparently, you know, according to his story,

488
00:27:42.599 --> 00:27:44.559
he was going down the hall yelling, get the fuck

489
00:27:44.599 --> 00:27:46.920
out of my house, you know, thinking it was an intruder.

490
00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:49.960
What the defense speculated on the point of why didn't

491
00:27:49.960 --> 00:27:53.839
Reva say something is that she was in the room,

492
00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:57.119
in the toilet room, and she heard him yelling, and

493
00:27:57.160 --> 00:27:59.799
so maybe she assumed there was an intruder in the

494
00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:02.759
and so she didn't say anything because she didn't want

495
00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:04.400
to reveal where she was.

496
00:28:04.920 --> 00:28:07.160
That's why he was in the bathroom yelling.

497
00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:10.240
He was coming down the hall yelling as he came

498
00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:11.119
toward the bathroom.

499
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:13.680
So it wasn't an on Sweet bathroom.

500
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:16.920
So I'll post a picture of a layout that we

501
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:20.200
that we found, but it may have been an on

502
00:28:20.279 --> 00:28:22.039
Sweet bathroom. But if it was, it was kind of

503
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:24.599
He still had to walk down a hall from the

504
00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:26.759
bedroom to get to the bathroom, like it was sort

505
00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:30.039
of attached, but it was down a ways down the hall.

506
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:32.920
So I guess like our bathroom, like we have like

507
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:35.160
a little I guess you would maybe call it like

508
00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:39.039
a lot. Yeah, it was all away or a crevice, right, yeah, Okay.

509
00:28:39.640 --> 00:28:42.400
As Oscar reached the end of his account, he broke

510
00:28:42.440 --> 00:28:46.599
down completely. He sobbed uncontrollably in the witness box. Judge

511
00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:50.640
Massipa adjourned court for the day. Then came cross examination

512
00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:54.839
when prosecutor Jerry Nell finally rose, he wasted no time.

513
00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:57.920
You killed her. Nell said, you shot and killed her.

514
00:28:58.039 --> 00:29:01.880
Won't you take responsibility for that? Without warning, Nell displayed

515
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:06.039
a graphic photograph of Reva's face, bloodied with visible bone

516
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:09.119
and brain tissue, and demanded Oscar look at it and

517
00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:14.000
accept responsibility. Oscar refused, saying the image was already seared

518
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:17.680
into his mind and haunted him daily. The cross examination

519
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:22.279
lasted five days. Nell accused Oscar of fabricating his version

520
00:29:22.279 --> 00:29:25.480
of events to fit the evidence. In his closing barrage,

521
00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:28.559
he told Oscar, your version is so improbable that it

522
00:29:28.599 --> 00:29:32.359
cannot possibly be reasonably true. The truth is, you shot

523
00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:35.359
four shots through that door while knowing that she was

524
00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:38.039
standing there. You knew she was talking to you. You

525
00:29:38.200 --> 00:29:40.920
armed yourself for the sole purpose of shooting and killing her,

526
00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:44.920
and that's what you did. Reactions to Nell's approach were mixed.

527
00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:48.000
Some felt he had crossed the line that his tactics

528
00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:52.240
were overly aggressive, but most legal observers agreed on one thing.

529
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:55.759
He had the upper hand. Oscar spoke too much. He

530
00:29:55.799 --> 00:30:00.680
appeared agitated and confused. At times, he contradicted himself, struggled

531
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:05.039
under pressure, and often seemed evasive. Still, even after five

532
00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:09.680
grueling days of cross examination, one reality remained, proving murder

533
00:30:09.759 --> 00:30:13.880
with conscious premeditation, the most serious charge was still going

534
00:30:13.880 --> 00:30:15.000
to be an uphill battle.

535
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:20.039
A central pillar of Oscar's defense was psychological. His legal

536
00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:23.240
team argued that what had happened in the early hours

537
00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:27.279
of February fourteenth could not be understood purely through ballistics

538
00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:31.319
or timelines. To them, Oscar's actions only made sense when

539
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:36.759
viewed through the lens of his fears, insecurities, and psychological makeup.

540
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:42.160
Factors they'd believed explained why he reacted so disproportionately to

541
00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:45.119
a noise in the bathroom. To support that argument, the

542
00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:49.720
defense had Oscar evaluated by a highly respected professor of psychiatry,

543
00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:53.240
who later testified in court. She told the judge that

544
00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:56.799
the amputation of Oscar's legs at just eleven months old

545
00:30:57.039 --> 00:31:00.160
would have been profoundly traumatic, even if he was too

546
00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:03.960
young to consciously remember it. His parents, she explained, had

547
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:06.799
made a deliberate choice never to allow him to see

548
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:11.039
himself as abnormal. In many ways, that decision served him well.

549
00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:15.039
It helped him achieve extraordinary things, but it also came

550
00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:18.960
at a cost. According to the psychiatrist, Oscar grew up

551
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:22.799
feeling compelled to appear normal at all times, despite knowing

552
00:31:22.839 --> 00:31:26.319
that he was different. That tension between who he was

553
00:31:26.359 --> 00:31:30.400
publicly and how he felt privately created a chronic state

554
00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:34.160
of anxiety and stress. He lived what she described as

555
00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:36.920
a dual existence. I guess if you put all of

556
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:39.880
that on top of like this fame that he got

557
00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:44.359
because he was this special athlete, that would confuse things

558
00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:47.960
even more. On one side was the public Oscar, the

559
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:52.440
golden boy, the elite athlete, the man with sponsorships, fast cars,

560
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:57.119
and beautiful girlfriends. On the other was a deeply insecure individual,

561
00:31:57.400 --> 00:32:02.599
painfully self conscious, terrified of being pitied or ridiculed, and

562
00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:07.319
emotionally immature in ways that conflicted sharply with his outward success.

563
00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:12.759
Unable to reconcile those competing identities, she said, Oscar lived

564
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:16.880
in a near constant state of psychological strain. His public

565
00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:22.680
persona polite, gracious, admired, masked someone who was socially uncomfortable

566
00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:27.240
and profoundly lonely. The relentless travel required by his athletic

567
00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:31.880
career only intensified that isolation, making it harder for him

568
00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:37.200
to form stable, emotionally secure relationships. She diagnosed Oscar with

569
00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:41.759
generalized anxiety disorder, a condition that can cause people to

570
00:32:41.960 --> 00:32:45.920
perceived threats where none exist. In her view, Oscar was

571
00:32:46.000 --> 00:32:50.640
hyper vigilant, constantly scanning for danger, primed to react.

572
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:53.319
One of the interesting things about this defense that they

573
00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:57.279
were putting on is that Oscar is very clearly, very

574
00:32:57.680 --> 00:33:01.400
insecure and very anxious about a lot of things. And

575
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:03.599
that was the core of the defense, which was going

576
00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:07.440
to be broadcast live to hundreds of thousands of millions

577
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:09.839
of people. And so Oscar was put in this position

578
00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:14.079
where his best defense was basically putting all these vulnerabilities

579
00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:17.400
and insecurities on display to the entire world, which must

580
00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:20.039
have been really difficult for him to agree to.

581
00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:22.799
That's the case in a lot of trials, though, to

582
00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:27.079
become vindicated, you have to present your most vulnerable self.

583
00:33:27.319 --> 00:33:27.799
True.

584
00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:33.559
Following the psychiatrist's testimony, the prosecution pushed back. They demanded

585
00:33:33.559 --> 00:33:38.799
that Oscar go independent psychiatric evaluation by state appointed experts.

586
00:33:39.319 --> 00:33:42.839
Judge Messiba agreed, and the trial was paused well. Oscar

587
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:47.960
spent a month under observation, evaluated by three psychiatrists and

588
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:53.279
one psychologist. The conclusions were more nuanced. They acknowledged that

589
00:33:53.319 --> 00:33:57.640
Oscar displayed symptoms of generalized anxiety disorder, but said those

590
00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:02.319
symptoms were not clinically significant at the time of the shooting. However,

591
00:34:02.440 --> 00:34:06.880
they diagnosed him with clinical depression and post traumatic stress disorder,

592
00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:12.039
along with an acute fear of humiliation and ridicule. Importantly

593
00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:15.599
for the defense, the experts found no evidence that Oscar

594
00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:21.519
exhibited traits of narcissism or psychopathy, personality characteristics often associated

595
00:34:21.559 --> 00:34:25.920
with rage driven intimate partner killings. The results were mixed,

596
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:30.119
but overall, the psychiatric evidence appeared to bolster the defense's

597
00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:34.360
narrative more than the prosecutions. Oscar emerged not as a

598
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:38.679
calculated killer, but as a deeply anxious, emotionally fragile man

599
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:44.079
who reacted catastrophically under perceived threat. The defense formally rested

600
00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:47.400
its case on July eighth. So how long when did

601
00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:48.000
the trial start?

602
00:34:48.039 --> 00:34:48.960
It started in March.

603
00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:50.039
Oh, oh, my gosh.

604
00:34:50.119 --> 00:34:51.679
I mean there was a long break where he had

605
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:54.079
he went through the psychological evaluation. But yes, it was

606
00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:55.159
a very long trial.

607
00:34:55.400 --> 00:34:59.599
A month later, both sides delivered their closing arguments. Judge Messipa,

608
00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:03.159
then a announced she would deliver her verdict on September eleventh,

609
00:35:03.320 --> 00:35:07.119
more than six months after the trial began. By that point,

610
00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:10.920
the evidence had been heard, the testimony weighed, and the

611
00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:14.320
country was waiting not just for a verdict, but for

612
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:17.760
an answer to what Oscar Pistorius truly believed in those

613
00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:22.800
final irreversible seconds. Just days after the defense rested, Oscar

614
00:35:22.880 --> 00:35:26.719
drew fresh attention for all the wrong reasons. On July twelfth,

615
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:29.679
Oscar went out to a nightclub in an affluent suburb

616
00:35:29.719 --> 00:35:33.480
of Johannesburg with his cousin. According to multiple reports, he

617
00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:37.760
had been drinking heavily and became aggressive. An altercation broke

618
00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:40.679
out between Oscar and a South African race car driver,

619
00:35:41.079 --> 00:35:44.360
forcing bouncers to step in and ask Oscar to leave

620
00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:48.239
the club. The timing could not have been worse. The

621
00:35:48.280 --> 00:35:51.840
following day, Oscar's family released a public statement attempting to

622
00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:56.639
contextualize his behavior. Quote, Whilst Oscar venturing out in a

623
00:35:56.679 --> 00:35:59.719
public space with his cousin in the current climate, and

624
00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:03.800
whilst his court case is still underway was unwise, those

625
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:06.440
of us closest to him have been witnesses to his

626
00:36:06.679 --> 00:36:10.840
escalating sense of loneliness. And alienation. This we believe is

627
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:14.800
underlying some of his self harming behavior. As a family,

628
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:17.800
we are a counseling Oscar to find ways of dealing

629
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:21.639
with his feelings of isolation. For many members of the public,

630
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:25.719
the incident reinforced doubts about Oscar's self control and judgment,

631
00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:31.119
particularly coming so soon after days of emotional testimony about

632
00:36:31.119 --> 00:36:34.639
his fragility and fear. For the defense, it was a

633
00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:36.440
setback they could ill afford.

634
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:39.400
The prosecution actually see has done some of the language

635
00:36:39.400 --> 00:36:42.079
in that statement where they talked about self harming behavior.

636
00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:45.079
They tried to get the judge to revoke his bail

637
00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:47.480
and basically put him back in prison while he was

638
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:51.119
awaiting hearing the results, but the judge decided not to

639
00:36:51.159 --> 00:36:51.519
do that.

640
00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:54.960
For Judge Massipa, it was yet another reminder that even

641
00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:59.719
if she deliberated, Oscar's remained a deeply complicated and deeply

642
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:11.079
tried We'll be back after a break. Just days before

643
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:15.599
closing arguments, tragedies struck the Pistorius family yet again. Carl

644
00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:19.719
Pistorius was involved in a devastating head on collision that

645
00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:24.039
crushed both of his legs below the knees. That's Oscar's

646
00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:27.639
older brother. For a time, doctors were unsure whether he

647
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:31.440
could survive, let alone walk again. He ultimately pulled through,

648
00:37:31.639 --> 00:37:34.480
and on the day the verdict was delivered, Karl appeared

649
00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:37.639
in court in a wheelchair, a stark and painful echo

650
00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:41.920
of his younger brother's lifelong disability. As a reminder, Judge

651
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:45.079
Massipa had three possible verdicts available to her on the

652
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:49.119
main murder charge. Aside from acquittal, murder with conscious premeditation

653
00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:53.920
the most serious charge, murder without premeditation known as duellis

654
00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:58.480
eventualis the middle ground, and culpable homicide the least serious,

655
00:37:58.519 --> 00:38:03.719
equivalent to manslaughter. Most legal observers believed dulus eventualis was

656
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:07.119
the most likely outcome that Oscar had fired with the

657
00:38:07.159 --> 00:38:10.199
intent to kill whoever was behind the door, regardless of

658
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:13.280
whether he believed it was Riva or an intruder. In

659
00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:16.760
South Africa, a verdict hearing is not a simple announcement.

660
00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:21.360
On September eleventh, Judge Messipa spent the entire day methodically

661
00:38:21.480 --> 00:38:25.599
reviewing the evidence and explaining her reasons peace by piece.

662
00:38:25.800 --> 00:38:27.320
You imagine like you just want to hear what the

663
00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:30.280
verdict is and the judge spends a whole day just

664
00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:32.480
talking through every piece of the evidence.

665
00:38:32.599 --> 00:38:36.360
Yeah, So the courtroom and the country waited overnight. The

666
00:38:36.440 --> 00:38:40.559
verdicts were delivered the following morning, and the most serious charge,

667
00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:46.039
murdered with conscious premeditation, Judge Messipa found Oscar Pistorius not guilty.

668
00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:48.760
She ruled that the state had failed to prove Oscar

669
00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:52.320
intended to kill Reva. Central to her decision was the

670
00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:56.360
timeline presented by the defense, one the prosecution had not

671
00:38:56.519 --> 00:39:00.679
successfully challenged. In particular, the state had not proven that

672
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:04.400
an argument occurred before the shots were fired. Then came

673
00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:08.760
the charge many believed was inevitable on murder without premeditation

674
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:14.039
dolus eventualis. Judge Messipa again found Oscar not guilty, a

675
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:18.039
decision that stunned much of the legal community. Her reasoning

676
00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:21.760
hinged on Oscar's subjective state of mind. In her words,

677
00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:25.400
how could the accused reasonably have foreseen that the shots

678
00:39:25.400 --> 00:39:28.360
he fired would kill the deceased? Clearly, he did not

679
00:39:28.440 --> 00:39:32.719
subjectively foresee this as a possibility. To find otherwise would

680
00:39:32.719 --> 00:39:36.599
be tantamount to saying that the accused's reaction after he

681
00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:39.719
realized that he had shot the deceased was faked that

682
00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:43.039
he was play acting merely to delude the onlookers at

683
00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:47.440
the time. However, Judge Messipa did not absolve him entirely.

684
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:51.519
She found Oscar guilty of culpable homicide, ruling that while

685
00:39:51.559 --> 00:39:54.800
he did not intend to kill, his actions were negligent.

686
00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:58.920
He had acted too harshly and used excessive unreasonable force

687
00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:03.360
in response to a perceived threat. On the additional firearms charges,

688
00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:06.559
the verdicts were mixed. Not guilty of firing a gun

689
00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:09.639
through the sunroof of a moving car, not guilty of

690
00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:15.480
possessing unlicensed ammunition, guilty of negligently discharging a firearm in

691
00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:18.960
a restaurant. For Oscar and his legal team, the outcome

692
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:22.840
was a near best case scenario. Quote. I don't give

693
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:26.360
a shit about the sentence, Oscar reportedly told his lawyer,

694
00:40:26.599 --> 00:40:30.000
I am not a murderer. His brother and sister embraced

695
00:40:30.039 --> 00:40:33.960
him in the courtroom. For June's steamcamp. The verdict was devastating.

696
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:36.960
I just don't feel that this is right, she said.

697
00:40:37.239 --> 00:40:40.280
They believe his story, and I don't believe that story.

698
00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:43.639
He shot her through the door, and I can't believe

699
00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:46.360
that they believed it was an accident, and much of

700
00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:50.239
South Africa appeared to agree. Newspaper headlines the next day

701
00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:55.280
read Oscar dodges bullet and Oscar's Great escape. International reaction

702
00:40:55.519 --> 00:40:59.280
was equally fierce. Donald Trump weighed in, calling the judge

703
00:40:59.320 --> 00:41:03.920
a total moron and likening the case to another OJ disaster.

704
00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:09.559
Judge Messipa herself became a target, receiving threats, insults, and

705
00:41:09.639 --> 00:41:14.079
a torrent of racist and sexist abuse. The legal process

706
00:41:14.119 --> 00:41:18.400
had spoken, but for many, justice still felt unresolved.

707
00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:22.800
With the conviction for culpable homicide, Oscar Pistorius faced a

708
00:41:22.840 --> 00:41:27.159
wide sentencing range, though Gazilla Massipa could impose anything from

709
00:41:27.159 --> 00:41:30.559
a suspended sentence or community service to a maximum of

710
00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:35.239
fifteen years in prison. The sentencing hearing began on October thirteenth.

711
00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:38.280
As with much of this case, it was anything but brief.

712
00:41:38.599 --> 00:41:41.840
The proceedings stretched over five days, followed by a four

713
00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:46.239
day adjournment while Judge Massipa considered her decision. The defense

714
00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:51.159
urged leniency. Witnesses testified that Oscar was already a broken man.

715
00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:55.079
He had lost his career, his reputation, his freedom, and

716
00:41:55.159 --> 00:41:58.360
the life that he once knew. They emphasized the brutal

717
00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:02.559
reality of South African prisons and argued that incarceration would

718
00:42:02.559 --> 00:42:07.280
be especially punishing for someone with Oscar's disability. Prison, they warned,

719
00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:10.760
would not rehabilitate him, it would further destroy him. The

720
00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:15.599
prosecution counter that negligence resulting in death demanded real consequences,

721
00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:20.480
regardless of fame or physical limitations. When Judge Massiba returned

722
00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:23.320
to deliver her sentence, the outcome fell closer to the

723
00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:26.800
low end of her options. Oscar Pistorius was sentenced to

724
00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:30.960
five years in prison for culpable homicide. He also received

725
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:34.000
a three year sentence for the firearms conviction, but that

726
00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:37.519
sentence was fully suspended, meaning it would not be served

727
00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:41.599
unless he committed another offense. Under South African law, the

728
00:42:41.679 --> 00:42:46.119
practical impact was significant, Oscar could become eligible for release

729
00:42:46.199 --> 00:42:50.039
into house arrest after as little as ten months. For

730
00:42:50.199 --> 00:42:54.320
many South Africans, the sentence felt shockingly light. For others,

731
00:42:54.360 --> 00:42:57.119
it reflected the court's belief that this was a tragic

732
00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:01.400
case of negligence rather than intentional murder, and once again

733
00:43:01.559 --> 00:43:04.639
the question lingered, just as it had since the very beginning.

734
00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:09.800
Was this justice served or justice denied? Within South Africa's

735
00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:13.960
legal community. Judge Massipa's decision to acquit Oscar Pistorius on

736
00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:18.360
the Dolus eventualist charge was met with widespread criticism. A

737
00:43:18.400 --> 00:43:22.599
constitutional law professor at the University of Cape Town wrote, pointedly,

738
00:43:23.079 --> 00:43:26.760
given all the evidence presented in court about Pistorius's knowledge

739
00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:28.880
of guns and what the bullets he used would do

740
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:31.920
to a person, it is unlikely in the extreme that

741
00:43:31.960 --> 00:43:35.199
Pistorius did not foresee that the person behind the door,

742
00:43:35.480 --> 00:43:38.440
who he might have thought was an intruder, would be killed.

743
00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:43.199
The criticism wasn't just academic. The State formally appealed Judge

744
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:47.559
Massipa's ruling, and in December twenty fifteen, nearly a year later,

745
00:43:47.880 --> 00:43:51.679
the Supreme Court of Appeal delivered its judgment. The appellate

746
00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:54.960
Court agreed with the critics. In a sharply worded decision.

747
00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:58.119
The judges held that Judge Massipa had aired in her

748
00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:01.960
understanding of Dolus eventuala. They said it was a matter

749
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:05.119
of basic common sense that when Oscar fired the shots,

750
00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:08.000
the possibility that the person behind the door could be

751
00:44:08.119 --> 00:44:11.719
killed was obvious, and by firing not one but four

752
00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:15.760
shots into a confined space, that risk was not just foreseeable.

753
00:44:16.039 --> 00:44:19.440
It was amplified. The Supreme Court of Appeal set aside

754
00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:23.119
Oscar's conviction for culpable homicide and replaced it with a

755
00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:26.239
conviction for murder with criminal intent in the form of

756
00:44:26.320 --> 00:44:29.840
dulls eventualis. The case was then sent back to Judge

757
00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:33.159
Massipa's trial court for resentencing. I thought it was interesting

758
00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:36.559
that the case went back to her for resentencing after

759
00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:38.800
she was the one that they said aired in.

760
00:44:39.320 --> 00:44:42.840
The conviction that she very contradictory.

761
00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:46.599
Even with the more serious murder conviction, Judge Massipa still

762
00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:51.440
retained significant discretion. She increased Oscar's sentence from five years

763
00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:54.199
to six years, so she basically just upped it by

764
00:44:54.199 --> 00:44:58.079
one year. That too, was appealed once again. The Supreme

765
00:44:58.119 --> 00:45:01.960
Court of Appeal intervened, this time decisively ruling that the

766
00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:06.239
sentence was shockingly lenient. The court substituted its own sentence.

767
00:45:06.760 --> 00:45:11.039
Oscar Pistorius's punishment was increased to fifteen years in prison.

768
00:45:11.480 --> 00:45:15.760
After years of trials, appeals, reversals, and revision, the legal

769
00:45:15.800 --> 00:45:19.159
system had reached a far harsher conclusion than it had

770
00:45:19.239 --> 00:45:23.159
at first. Oscar Pistorius served his sentence at a correctional

771
00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:27.599
facility in Pretoria. In January twenty twenty four, after serving

772
00:45:27.880 --> 00:45:31.280
just over ten years behind bars, he was released on parole.

773
00:45:31.719 --> 00:45:35.440
He remains under strict supervision until his sentence formally ends

774
00:45:35.480 --> 00:45:38.519
in twenty twenty nine. Oscar now lives at the home

775
00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:41.840
of his uncle Arnold, also in Pretoria. As a condition

776
00:45:41.960 --> 00:45:45.440
of his parole, he is required to attend programs addressing

777
00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:49.800
gender based violence and anger management. He's prohibited from consuming

778
00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:53.719
alcohol and barred from speaking to the media. Legally, the

779
00:45:53.800 --> 00:45:57.679
case is over, but for Riva Steinkamp's family, justice has

780
00:45:57.760 --> 00:46:00.280
never been a finish line. It's something that they have

781
00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:03.639
had to learn to live without, alongside grief, anger, and

782
00:46:03.719 --> 00:46:07.159
an absence that never fades. Riva was twenty nine years

783
00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:09.920
old when she died. She was a law graduate, a

784
00:46:09.960 --> 00:46:13.559
working model, a daughter, a friend, a woman who believed

785
00:46:13.599 --> 00:46:17.960
deeply in kindness, integrity, and speaking out for others, especially

786
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:21.840
women whose voices were so often ignored. She spoke publicly

787
00:46:21.840 --> 00:46:25.000
against rape and domestic violence in a country where both

788
00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:28.000
were endemic. In her final days, she was stepping into

789
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:31.519
her own spotlight, not as someone's girlfriend, but as herself.

790
00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:34.760
In one of the last pieces of footage recorded before

791
00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:37.480
her death, Riva spoke about how she tried to live

792
00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:42.000
her life with honesty, compassion, and courage. Those words aired

793
00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:45.639
just two days after she was killed. Oscar Pistorius's name

794
00:46:45.679 --> 00:46:49.079
will be forever tied to this case. His rise, his falls,

795
00:46:49.159 --> 00:46:52.679
his trials, and his sentences have been analyzed from every

796
00:46:52.719 --> 00:46:55.599
possible angle. But Riva was never meant to be a

797
00:46:55.599 --> 00:46:59.440
footnote in someone else's story. She was the story. Her

798
00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:02.880
life mattter long before that night, and it matters still

799
00:47:03.079 --> 00:47:05.480
not because of how she died, but because of who

800
00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:08.639
she was, what she believed, and the future that she

801
00:47:08.719 --> 00:47:11.239
never got the chance to live. And if there's anything

802
00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:14.599
to take from this case, it's this, Riva Steinecamp should

803
00:47:14.639 --> 00:47:17.440
be remembered not as a victim in a headline, but

804
00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:20.679
as a woman whose life had meaning independent of the

805
00:47:20.679 --> 00:47:24.400
man who took it. Rest in peace, Reva. The big

806
00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:27.639
question in this case, of course, is whether justice was

807
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:30.079
actually served or not. Did the you know, I took

808
00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:32.519
a lot of iterations with the appeals and everything, but

809
00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:36.719
did the judicial system ultimately get it right? Was it

810
00:47:36.760 --> 00:47:40.000
the right verdict? And how about the sentence? Was it

811
00:47:40.039 --> 00:47:40.800
the right sentence?

812
00:47:41.039 --> 00:47:43.480
What do you think, well, let me turn that around

813
00:47:43.519 --> 00:47:47.360
to you, because the judge was making the decision. Had

814
00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:49.800
this been a jury trial, do you think there was

815
00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:53.320
enough evidence that a jury would have found Oscar guilty

816
00:47:53.360 --> 00:47:54.559
of any of those charges.

817
00:47:54.840 --> 00:47:57.159
I do not think there was enough evidence to find

818
00:47:57.239 --> 00:47:59.920
him guilty of premeditated murder. I know a lot of

819
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:02.199
people want that to be the case, and it very

820
00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:05.239
well could have been the case that it was premeditated murder.

821
00:48:05.480 --> 00:48:09.400
But in a court, rulings are made by whether there's

822
00:48:09.400 --> 00:48:11.719
evidence or not, and I don't think there was enough

823
00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:15.519
evidence to say that he murdered her, you know, intentionally

824
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:18.320
that yes, I'm going to kill you after an argument

825
00:48:18.440 --> 00:48:20.760
or something like that. So I don't think there was

826
00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:23.199
enough evidence if I was on a jury, to convict

827
00:48:23.239 --> 00:48:23.719
him of that.

828
00:48:24.199 --> 00:48:26.920
I think there is enough evidence to show that he

829
00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:30.960
had an anger problem, that he had a hair trigger.

830
00:48:31.239 --> 00:48:33.760
It didn't take much to set him off. But I

831
00:48:33.840 --> 00:48:36.440
don't know if we can get to that night was

832
00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:39.280
at three am when it happened. At three am, they

833
00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:42.320
were still awake and they were having an argument, and

834
00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:46.000
I don't think that anything had happened, like they had

835
00:48:46.039 --> 00:48:49.159
a tumultuous relationship, but it doesn't sound like there's any

836
00:48:49.239 --> 00:48:52.639
proof that anything happened that night that would have caused

837
00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:54.760
him to wake up at three am and shoot her.

838
00:48:54.880 --> 00:48:57.320
Yeah, And that's what I think makes this case so difficult,

839
00:48:57.360 --> 00:48:59.840
because there was all that evidence that he had an

840
00:48:59.800 --> 00:49:03.320
anger problem, that he was jealous, he was controlling, So

841
00:49:03.400 --> 00:49:06.440
he had all these elements of people that do often

842
00:49:06.519 --> 00:49:07.440
kill their partners.

843
00:49:07.599 --> 00:49:11.920
Yeah, he had characteristics of someone who would commit domestic

844
00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:14.039
violence against his significant other.

845
00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:14.400
Sure.

846
00:49:14.519 --> 00:49:17.400
Yeah. I do think though that the appeal court was

847
00:49:17.559 --> 00:49:21.519
correct in that middle charge. It's a little bit confusing,

848
00:49:21.559 --> 00:49:24.719
but that middle charge was basically, he meant to kill

849
00:49:24.760 --> 00:49:27.679
whoever was behind that door, regardless of whether he thought

850
00:49:27.679 --> 00:49:30.840
it was Riva or an intruder. And it seems ridiculous

851
00:49:30.920 --> 00:49:33.599
that she found him not guilty of that because you

852
00:49:33.679 --> 00:49:37.559
fire four bullets. There are these dumb, dumb bullets that basically,

853
00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:40.760
you know, expand on impact. You fire that through a

854
00:49:40.840 --> 00:49:44.119
door of a small room where you know someone is

855
00:49:44.159 --> 00:49:47.760
behind there. How could you say that he didn't think

856
00:49:47.800 --> 00:49:49.719
that that would result in that person's death.

857
00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:53.679
I guess would the laws be different here that if

858
00:49:53.719 --> 00:49:56.599
there's an intruder in your home, you're allowed to shoot them.

859
00:49:56.960 --> 00:49:59.599
Yeah, I think that that is the case. That would

860
00:49:59.599 --> 00:50:01.840
be different. And here I'm not sure. You know, every

861
00:50:01.920 --> 00:50:05.280
state is different, has different you know, degrees of homicide

862
00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:07.039
and things like that, so I'm not sure if the

863
00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:10.480
equivalent charge exists here or not. I think the difference

864
00:50:10.519 --> 00:50:14.440
between manslaughter and premeditated murder is pretty clear, but that

865
00:50:14.559 --> 00:50:16.880
dolus eventualis charge is a little confusing.

866
00:50:17.880 --> 00:50:20.239
I think if Oscar lived here in the United States,

867
00:50:20.519 --> 00:50:22.400
he would have been acquitted on all charges.

868
00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:24.239
Oh really, you don't think he would have been found

869
00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:25.400
guilty of manslaughter.

870
00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:28.559
I don't think so. Thinking back to OJ, you know,

871
00:50:28.639 --> 00:50:32.199
OJ was a celebrity and yeah, there was a lot

872
00:50:32.199 --> 00:50:34.519
of evidence against JOJ I believe. I don't think we'll

873
00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:38.440
ever cover that case, but I think that, yeah, he would.

874
00:50:38.199 --> 00:50:41.239
Have been able to hire the best lawyers and manipulate

875
00:50:41.239 --> 00:50:44.639
the legal system as best he could. It's yeah, it's

876
00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:49.559
interesting to speculate, but it's very possible. Although in Oscar's case,

877
00:50:49.599 --> 00:50:52.000
there was no doubt that he fired the bullets that

878
00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:54.719
killed her, it's true, so I still think maybe manslaughter,

879
00:50:54.840 --> 00:50:58.239
but yeah, he probably wouldn't have spent He wouldn't have

880
00:50:58.239 --> 00:50:59.360
spent fifteen years in prison.

881
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:02.159
I mean, it is like, I'm not saying that he's

882
00:51:02.199 --> 00:51:04.840
not guilty. I'm just not sure if there is enough evidence.

883
00:51:04.880 --> 00:51:07.480
But what do you think was there a motive?

884
00:51:08.199 --> 00:51:11.280
I well, if he did kill her in a premeditated way,

885
00:51:11.320 --> 00:51:13.360
I would say it was. The motive would have been

886
00:51:13.360 --> 00:51:16.079
more like they had an argument that escalated and he

887
00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:18.679
grabbed the gun and shot her in a fit of rage.

888
00:51:18.760 --> 00:51:20.800
And like you said, we're not saying that didn't happen.

889
00:51:20.840 --> 00:51:23.599
It might have happened, but you know, there's just not

890
00:51:23.960 --> 00:51:27.159
enough evidence to convict somebody of that when beyond a

891
00:51:27.199 --> 00:51:29.840
reasonable doubt. I don't think. I thought it was interesting

892
00:51:29.880 --> 00:51:34.280
that Judge Masipa seemed very sympathetic toward Oscar, because when

893
00:51:34.280 --> 00:51:36.639
I first learned about her, you know, it came out

894
00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:39.719
that she was very tough on men who committed violence

895
00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:43.159
against women. She seemed to have no you know, she

896
00:51:43.800 --> 00:51:46.880
didn't suffer fools gladly, but she seemed like she had

897
00:51:47.079 --> 00:51:48.960
I don't know, maybe this is just me reading into it,

898
00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:51.159
but it seemed like she had a soft spot for Oscar.

899
00:51:51.320 --> 00:51:55.119
Like she found him guilty of the least serious charge

900
00:51:55.119 --> 00:51:57.199
that she could have. She sentenced him very much on

901
00:51:57.239 --> 00:51:59.119
the low end even when it came back from the

902
00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:01.280
appeal court. Okay, at a year to it.

903
00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:03.840
But well, you said he was very emotional every day

904
00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:06.800
in the trial, like sobbing and wretching, and you know,

905
00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:09.800
maybe she viewed him and she thought, you know, I

906
00:52:09.880 --> 00:52:11.320
don't believe that he's guilty.

907
00:52:11.480 --> 00:52:12.639
Yeah, she was.

908
00:52:12.840 --> 00:52:15.639
It's easy for us to sit here and analyze the

909
00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:17.599
judge and say, oh, she didn't do a good job.

910
00:52:17.800 --> 00:52:21.239
But you know, sitting there for months listening to the evidence,

911
00:52:21.800 --> 00:52:25.239
you probably do have a different interpretation of it, you.

912
00:52:25.119 --> 00:52:29.239
Know, and there is no doubt that Oscar was incredibly emotional.

913
00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:32.480
And you know, in this whole trial he broke down

914
00:52:32.559 --> 00:52:35.719
so many times. Obviously he was deeply affected by what

915
00:52:35.840 --> 00:52:39.159
he did. Doesn't make him not guilty of it, but

916
00:52:39.400 --> 00:52:42.199
he was deeply affected and maybe that did impact the

917
00:52:42.599 --> 00:52:43.880
way that the judge viewed him.

918
00:52:44.159 --> 00:52:46.559
It's important for us to remember that you can commit

919
00:52:46.760 --> 00:52:50.400
the most horrible violent act and still feel bad about it,

920
00:52:50.559 --> 00:52:52.719
right even if you you know, if you did it intentionally,

921
00:52:52.880 --> 00:52:55.079
you can still deeply regret it and have a lot

922
00:52:55.119 --> 00:52:58.480
of emotion absolutely tied to that. So you know, we

923
00:52:58.559 --> 00:53:02.119
have to be careful that we don't interpret someone's emotion

924
00:53:02.800 --> 00:53:04.079
as insecuilty.

925
00:53:04.199 --> 00:53:08.079
Yeah, exactly. I really struggle with a contradiction in this

926
00:53:08.159 --> 00:53:11.639
case because, on the one hand, I'm genuinely moved by

927
00:53:11.760 --> 00:53:15.639
the adversity that Oscar Pistorius overcame. When I read about

928
00:53:15.679 --> 00:53:21.519
his trials, his challenges and overcoming this disability that he had,

929
00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:26.199
and his drive and motivation, it's inspiring, like it really is,

930
00:53:26.639 --> 00:53:28.519
and he was a role model to a lot of people,

931
00:53:28.599 --> 00:53:31.320
especially other people who are differently abled. But on the

932
00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:34.320
other hand, at the very least, he had this pattern

933
00:53:34.360 --> 00:53:37.679
of reckless and dangerous behavior. He was not a great

934
00:53:37.719 --> 00:53:41.400
guy when it came to his relationships. He was controlling, possessive.

935
00:53:42.280 --> 00:53:44.159
I just have a hard time with this case because

936
00:53:44.159 --> 00:53:48.840
I really just have two extremely opposite reactions to him,

937
00:53:48.840 --> 00:53:51.079
and it's hard for me to kind of reconcile those

938
00:53:51.079 --> 00:53:52.239
two things in my mind.

939
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:54.639
I mean, people can be more than one thing. No

940
00:53:54.679 --> 00:53:57.280
one can take his accomplishments away from him, But that

941
00:53:57.320 --> 00:53:59.639
doesn't mean he's a great man at all aspect.

942
00:53:59.679 --> 00:54:02.320
Yes, absolutely, and you're right, no one can take his

943
00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:04.679
accomplishments away. But at the same time, I think his

944
00:54:04.800 --> 00:54:08.400
legacy is pretty much ruined from this point forward.

945
00:54:08.599 --> 00:54:12.039
I mean, he's still a youngish man. It'll be interesting

946
00:54:12.079 --> 00:54:14.119
to see. It will be what he does with the

947
00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:14.920
rest of his life.

948
00:54:15.039 --> 00:54:17.360
Yeah, and especially when his parole is up. I think

949
00:54:17.400 --> 00:54:19.719
in twenty twenty nine. He's not allowed to speak to

950
00:54:19.760 --> 00:54:23.239
the media until then, so we haven't heard anything from

951
00:54:23.320 --> 00:54:25.679
him in many years, so that'll be interesting as well

952
00:54:25.719 --> 00:54:28.280
when that happens, what he has to say.

953
00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:32.360
Our deepest sympathies again go to Reva's family. It can't

954
00:54:32.360 --> 00:54:37.639
be overstated how lovely Reva seemed, and how she's another

955
00:54:37.960 --> 00:54:39.760
victim that has gotten lost in this story.

956
00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:42.639
Yeah, for sure. And just when I think of her

957
00:54:42.719 --> 00:54:46.400
final moments, it's just so so sad that she was

958
00:54:46.440 --> 00:54:50.480
in this little urifying Yeah, she must have been just terrified,

959
00:54:50.599 --> 00:54:53.599
and it's really awful to think about that. We would

960
00:54:53.599 --> 00:54:56.360
really love to hear how you feel about this case

961
00:54:56.400 --> 00:54:59.800
as well, whether you felt that same tension between admiration

962
00:55:00.039 --> 00:55:03.840
for Oscar's achievements and accountability. How do you reconcile those things?

963
00:55:03.880 --> 00:55:06.320
Do you believe that justice was served? So let us

964
00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:08.679
know what you think before we go. I did want

965
00:55:08.719 --> 00:55:11.559
to mention my primary sources. This is one of those

966
00:55:11.559 --> 00:55:14.400
situations where there is so much information out there about

967
00:55:14.400 --> 00:55:17.159
the case that you could spend years researching this.

968
00:55:17.400 --> 00:55:19.320
Now I'm working at a case like that right now,

969
00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:20.199
and it's killing me.

970
00:55:20.519 --> 00:55:23.599
It's tough. So you have to choose carefully which sources

971
00:55:23.639 --> 00:55:26.440
to go to, otherwise you could spend a huge amount

972
00:55:26.440 --> 00:55:29.159
of time. My main source was a book called Chase

973
00:55:29.199 --> 00:55:32.840
Your Shadow, The Trials of Oscar Pistorius by John Carlin.

974
00:55:33.239 --> 00:55:35.880
It was a very thorough detailed look at the whole

975
00:55:35.920 --> 00:55:39.320
case was I felt like it was mostly unbiased. There

976
00:55:39.400 --> 00:55:42.599
was sometimes I thought it maybe leaned a little towards

977
00:55:42.639 --> 00:55:45.519
sympathy for Oscar, maybe a little heavily, But overall I

978
00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:47.639
felt like it was a pretty unbiased look at the

979
00:55:47.679 --> 00:55:50.400
whole the whole case. There was also a four part

980
00:55:50.679 --> 00:55:54.199
ESPN documentary part of their thirty for thirty series called

981
00:55:54.239 --> 00:55:57.440
The Life and Trials of Oscar Pastorius, which is available

982
00:55:57.480 --> 00:56:00.559
on Netflix and I recommend it. I used several other

983
00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:02.800
sources as well, which I'll include in the show notes.

984
00:56:03.159 --> 00:56:06.679
One source that I unfortunately wasn't able to use was

985
00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:10.880
a three part documentary called My Name is Reva. Supposedly,

986
00:56:10.960 --> 00:56:15.280
this documentary is more focused on Reva's Life, but unfortunately

987
00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:18.519
it's not currently available to watch in the US. If

988
00:56:18.559 --> 00:56:20.079
you happen to be in Europe, I think you can

989
00:56:20.119 --> 00:56:22.920
watch it over there, but not here in the US.

990
00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:25.920
It happens to us a lot working on international cases,

991
00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:29.760
sometimes sources aren't available to us. So if you have

992
00:56:29.880 --> 00:56:32.599
recommended an international case and we haven't done it, that

993
00:56:32.639 --> 00:56:36.039
could be why, because it's hard to gather all the sources.

994
00:56:36.079 --> 00:56:38.039
I always think I can find a way around it too,

995
00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:39.199
but you really can't.

996
00:56:39.400 --> 00:56:41.880
Yeah, well, especially like in Australia, because we've done a

997
00:56:41.960 --> 00:56:44.719
bunch of cases in Australia. To have the book shipped here,

998
00:56:44.840 --> 00:56:47.239
it's also prohibitively expensive.

999
00:56:47.400 --> 00:56:55.760
Right, So we talked to fair amount in this case

1000
00:56:55.800 --> 00:56:59.000
about athletics, about track and field and running. And I

1001
00:56:59.000 --> 00:57:02.599
should probably know this, but did you have any special talents?

1002
00:57:02.639 --> 00:57:04.239
Were you? Were you fast when you were young?

1003
00:57:04.440 --> 00:57:07.280
I was the third fastest runner in third grade. I

1004
00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:08.719
think that was my.

1005
00:57:08.920 --> 00:57:09.559
That was your peak?

1006
00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:10.360
Was No?

1007
00:57:10.440 --> 00:57:10.840
I knew.

1008
00:57:11.039 --> 00:57:15.239
I've always been a pretty okay runner. Actually that's not

1009
00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:17.639
at all true anyway. I don't really run once in

1010
00:57:17.639 --> 00:57:20.159
a while, like I remember run a five k, But

1011
00:57:20.239 --> 00:57:21.639
growing up I was not athletic.

1012
00:57:21.760 --> 00:57:23.440
Yeah, I haven't run it in a long time, but

1013
00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:26.360
I was. I was never fast growing up. Yeah, I

1014
00:57:26.360 --> 00:57:28.480
have like short little legs compared I.

1015
00:57:28.400 --> 00:57:30.519
Was, Well, that is not an excuse, because there's a

1016
00:57:30.559 --> 00:57:32.320
lot of good runners that have short legs.

1017
00:57:32.440 --> 00:57:34.840
Yeah, I guess I'm going to use that as my excuse.

1018
00:57:34.920 --> 00:57:37.199
We had when I was in elementary school, I think

1019
00:57:37.320 --> 00:57:40.119
was in sixth grade, we had what it was called

1020
00:57:40.119 --> 00:57:42.760
the Olympics, and it was basically all the different schools

1021
00:57:42.760 --> 00:57:45.880
in our school district would send people to do like

1022
00:57:45.880 --> 00:57:47.880
a big track and field of that, and it was

1023
00:57:47.920 --> 00:57:50.679
like a prestigious thing to get picked to go to

1024
00:57:50.719 --> 00:57:54.000
the Olympics, and so I wanted it so so bad.

1025
00:57:54.119 --> 00:57:55.119
It was like a lot of fun.

1026
00:57:56.000 --> 00:57:58.840
Probably I wouldn't know because I didn't make it. Sadly,

1027
00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:00.920
I thought I was going to make it on the

1028
00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:03.880
rope climb. That was the one thing I was pretty

1029
00:58:03.920 --> 00:58:06.320
decent at. It was like climbing up the rope. But

1030
00:58:06.440 --> 00:58:08.119
I didn't even make it on that either.

1031
00:58:08.280 --> 00:58:10.519
So the rope climb was my nightmare.

1032
00:58:10.639 --> 00:58:11.920
Oh really, Oh my gosh.

1033
00:58:12.039 --> 00:58:14.239
Yeah, And both of our kids are kind of like

1034
00:58:14.320 --> 00:58:19.000
they're little monkeys. So when I saw our kids have those,

1035
00:58:19.320 --> 00:58:21.960
you know, being athletic. I was a little surprised because

1036
00:58:22.239 --> 00:58:24.440
I'm just not really super athletic. But it was kind

1037
00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:26.280
of the way I grew up too, Like we weren't

1038
00:58:26.280 --> 00:58:28.679
really encouraged to do a lot of sports and things.

1039
00:58:28.840 --> 00:58:30.840
Yeah, I was real. It was really sad. I was

1040
00:58:30.920 --> 00:58:33.239
really like I wanted it so, like more than I

1041
00:58:33.280 --> 00:58:33.920
wanted anything.

1042
00:58:33.920 --> 00:58:36.159
And I was you played baseball and you did other sports.

1043
00:58:36.159 --> 00:58:38.360
I didn't just baseball. Really it was the only thing

1044
00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:39.880
I played growing up.

1045
00:58:39.960 --> 00:58:43.079
But well, you really would have done well at football,

1046
00:58:43.119 --> 00:58:43.559
I bet.

1047
00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:47.280
I mean you were like it was pretty small.

1048
00:58:47.920 --> 00:58:51.840
You're I pursued academic pursuits. You could beat them all

1049
00:58:51.840 --> 00:58:53.000
in the spelling bee.

1050
00:58:52.760 --> 00:58:55.639
And you you did in the old spelling bee.

1051
00:58:55.679 --> 00:58:55.880
Yeah.

1052
00:58:55.920 --> 00:58:57.480
Yeah, Do you want to tell the story about the

1053
00:58:57.480 --> 00:58:59.000
dictionary that has your name on it?

1054
00:58:59.559 --> 00:59:03.239
Well, when I won I won the sixth grade school

1055
00:59:03.280 --> 00:59:05.960
spelling Bee, I went on to the district and they

1056
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:08.880
gave me a dictionary with my name engraved on the cover,

1057
00:59:09.320 --> 00:59:12.440
and my name was spelled wrong. I'm so funny, And

1058
00:59:12.480 --> 00:59:14.480
so I went back I took it to my principal.

1059
00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:16.639
I said, they spelled my name wrong, and he was like, well,

1060
00:59:16.639 --> 00:59:19.000
that isn't that ironic? And so he actually got me

1061
00:59:19.039 --> 00:59:21.199
a new one with my name spelled correctly. So for

1062
00:59:21.239 --> 00:59:24.039
many years I had two dictionaries with my name engraved,

1063
00:59:24.119 --> 00:59:26.119
one with it spelled wrong and one with it correct.

1064
00:59:26.119 --> 00:59:27.119
I don't know what happened to them.

1065
00:59:27.159 --> 00:59:29.199
I think we still have one of them. I think

1066
00:59:29.199 --> 00:59:33.199
we do. Yeah, that's a great story. Tell us more

1067
00:59:33.239 --> 00:59:34.880
about your well, do you want to know the word

1068
00:59:34.920 --> 00:59:36.079
that academic success?

1069
00:59:36.159 --> 00:59:36.280
When?

1070
00:59:36.519 --> 00:59:36.840
Yeah, I do.

1071
00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:38.800
The word that I went out on in the district.

1072
00:59:38.800 --> 00:59:40.800
So in the district spelling bee, I came in fourth,

1073
00:59:40.840 --> 00:59:44.920
which was pretty darn good I felt. But the word

1074
00:59:44.960 --> 00:59:49.440
I went out on was resonant, and yeah, I had

1075
00:59:49.440 --> 00:59:52.760
never I had never heard the word before. When I

1076
00:59:52.760 --> 00:59:54.199
got it, I'm like, I don't even know what that

1077
00:59:54.239 --> 00:59:55.320
word means.

1078
00:59:55.039 --> 00:59:56.760
Like, how did you spell it?

1079
00:59:57.000 --> 01:00:00.800
I heard in my mind I heard resonant R E S,

1080
01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:03.480
I M E N T. Because I really didn't know

1081
01:00:03.480 --> 01:00:05.239
what that word was. So I just gave it my

1082
01:00:05.280 --> 01:00:05.719
best shot.

1083
01:00:05.920 --> 01:00:08.400
That's a great could you can you pend me a

1084
01:00:08.440 --> 01:00:09.960
Titian tearing.

1085
01:00:09.719 --> 01:00:13.039
Up oder so many sad stories. We talked a little

1086
01:00:13.039 --> 01:00:15.760
bit at the end of our case about OJ. Yeah,

1087
01:00:15.880 --> 01:00:17.880
you said, we would probably never cover that case, but

1088
01:00:17.880 --> 01:00:19.800
now I'm thinking maybe I should cover that because it

1089
01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:20.280
really is.

1090
01:00:20.239 --> 01:00:21.880
A well, you know, the case I want you like,

1091
01:00:21.920 --> 01:00:23.400
if you were going to ask me, you never asked

1092
01:00:23.400 --> 01:00:25.159
me what I wanted for my birthday, I was going

1093
01:00:25.239 --> 01:00:26.960
to say, I want you to do the John Benet

1094
01:00:27.079 --> 01:00:30.960
Ramsey case, but you don't like to make my dreams

1095
01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:31.840
and which has come true.

1096
01:00:32.320 --> 01:00:35.400
So I'm just I am intimidated by that case. I

1097
01:00:35.519 --> 01:00:38.639
was fascinated by Jean Bonnet Ramsey. Yeah when you know

1098
01:00:38.719 --> 01:00:40.760
the first book came out about it. I read it

1099
01:00:40.800 --> 01:00:42.880
cover to cover. I was really fascinated by it. But

1100
01:00:43.079 --> 01:00:46.239
now I'm just intimidated by it because it just feels like, well.

1101
01:00:46.119 --> 01:00:48.000
If you guys think we need to do that case,

1102
01:00:48.280 --> 01:00:50.480
please just leave a message.

1103
01:00:50.159 --> 01:00:52.039
On Okay, if enough people.

1104
01:00:51.840 --> 01:00:54.000
Social media or show notes or.

1105
01:00:53.960 --> 01:00:57.199
Whatever public demands it, maybe I'll do it. Consider it.

1106
01:00:57.280 --> 01:00:58.880
But but I wanted to talk about OJ.

1107
01:00:59.519 --> 01:00:59.800
Yeah.

1108
01:00:59.880 --> 01:01:02.199
I think do you think most people most people think

1109
01:01:02.280 --> 01:01:03.599
OJ did it? Right?

1110
01:01:03.840 --> 01:01:04.000
Oh?

1111
01:01:04.199 --> 01:01:05.079
Yeah, I think so.

1112
01:01:05.239 --> 01:01:08.039
What percentage of people do you think think OJ did it?

1113
01:01:09.199 --> 01:01:11.519
I don't know. I mean there are people that think

1114
01:01:11.559 --> 01:01:15.800
that he was framed, and I would say probably eighty percent.

1115
01:01:15.639 --> 01:01:17.360
I think that he's probably good.

1116
01:01:17.440 --> 01:01:20.320
But I remember we had just started dating when the

1117
01:01:20.400 --> 01:01:22.320
verdict was announced, and who called me at work? It

1118
01:01:22.360 --> 01:01:23.079
was really funny.

1119
01:01:24.519 --> 01:01:26.360
It is one of those moments. It's like, you know,

1120
01:01:26.599 --> 01:01:29.599
I guess you were older, like the Kennedy assassination, or

1121
01:01:29.639 --> 01:01:32.719
I guess at nine to eleven, like you remember exactly

1122
01:01:32.760 --> 01:01:34.840
where you were at that time, what you were doing,

1123
01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:38.239
And yeah, I was at work at the Romulus engine plant.

1124
01:01:39.480 --> 01:01:41.360
There was a TV on in the corner. It was

1125
01:01:41.400 --> 01:01:43.159
like everybody was glued to it.

1126
01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:45.840
Do you remember the Oscar Pistoria's case when it happened?

1127
01:01:46.079 --> 01:01:48.760
No, not really. I mean I definitely heard about it,

1128
01:01:48.800 --> 01:01:52.119
but I did not follow it super closely, and it

1129
01:01:52.159 --> 01:01:54.159
didn't have I don't think it had the same impact

1130
01:01:54.159 --> 01:01:55.920
here in the US as the OJ case.

1131
01:01:56.400 --> 01:01:59.440
No, definitely not. But it was definitely covered here. Yeah, pretty,

1132
01:02:00.039 --> 01:02:03.360
I mean pretty largely. Pardon my English.

1133
01:02:03.480 --> 01:02:06.559
It's okay. It's been a long, a long three part episode.

1134
01:02:06.559 --> 01:02:08.760
Put a fork in me. I'm done, all right, I

1135
01:02:08.800 --> 01:02:11.679
will put a fork in you until next time. Don't

1136
01:02:11.719 --> 01:02:13.400
kill your wife, don't kill your husband.

1137
01:03:00.079 --> 01:03:00.280
Yes,