Dec. 29, 2025

Rewind: Barbara and Russell Stager

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In 1988, Russell Stager was shot and killed in Durham, North Carolina. His wife Barbara claimed that Russ kept a gun under his pillow for safety and what resulted was a tragic accident. As investigators dug deeper though, Barbara’s past came back to haunt her.

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Today’s snacks: Christmas swig cookies and holiday chocolate chip cookies

Sources:

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War of your lass like the wall from the sun,

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and this will be a ya took a long time

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to come.

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Don't let go of my night.

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Darkness has gone. This will be allen.

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Took a long time to come. And I'll all forget

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the way you held it up when I was done.

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And I'll all forget the way you said.

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Love you.

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You're gonna thank you.

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I will only just be gone. This will be all gone.

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Hey Tina, Hey Rich, how are you?

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I'm great? How are you?

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I'm doing good?

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I love that song.

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It's a great song by the album It is their album,

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Odyssey and Oracle. It is one of my favorite albums

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of all time. It's just almost a perfect album from

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like nineteen sixty eight.

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I think so I yelled at you during our last

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Patreon episode, and I think you took that to heat

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you redeemed.

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You did not like my song selection for the last

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Patreon episode, but it was appropriate. But this song I

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thought was appropriate looking forward to twenty twenty six, it's

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almost the new year, optimistic sort of.

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Yeah, it's a beautiful song. Do you want to explain

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what we do on our Patrion episodes really quick? In

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case anyone's confused.

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Yeah, we usually use a different song, usually something that

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relates to the case, not always.

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Sometimes it's just what I'm in the mood for. Yeah,

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And I think it's our compromise because I don't love

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our theme song, and I know everyone else is always like, oh,

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I love your theme song, don't change it. So it's

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kind of our little compromise that we play thirty seconds

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of And.

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It's fun day different, fun to mix it up some.

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Yeah.

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It is the day after Christmas when we're recording this,

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and it is a dark and gloomy and stormy day out.

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Yeah, very weird weather here in southeast Michigan.

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Lightning and ice and all kinds of stuff. So good

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day to stay home and keep warm. Did you enjoy

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our Christmas Day yesterday?

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I really did. We opened some presents, we ate way

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too much food, We watched a movie, we watched The

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Lion's Self Destruct. It was a really nice day.

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Oh you had to bring up the slut well that.

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Yeah. Do you think the NFL puts too much pressure

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on teams that are doing well, like the Chiefs and

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the Lion.

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Putting them on on like Christmas Day or Thanksgiving?

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Yeah, Monday night all the time.

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They're they're professionals, they get paid a lot of money.

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I don't think it's like too much pressure to play

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on Christmas versus a regular Sunday. But I do feel

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kind of bad for them because they, you know, it's

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a holiday and they're basically working on that day. Yeah,

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but I really don't want to talk about the lie. Okay,

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well it's very sad.

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Broadcast was super awkward. It was I'm just going to

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say that, Yeah, it was not the Beast. But what

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was your favorite gift that you got?

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I liked a lot of the very nice and thoughtful

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gifts you got me, but one that sort of stands

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out is you bought me a watercolor kit. It's like

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a book with some starter ideas for different things you

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can paint.

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And want me twenty six. I think we should have

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more craft nights.

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I do too. It's good to be creative and try

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some artistic things.

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Yeah, you didn't get me a water color book.

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I'm going to run we share, we can share. How

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about you? Any gifts that stand out? Do you like

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the rogue that I got you?

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You didn't give me a robe? Well, I'm wearing a

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gift that your sister and her husband got me. Do

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you want to read what it says?

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It says if I go missing. I want Keith Morrison

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to talk about how I light up.

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A room, which is funny to me because one time

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I asked you, honey, do I light up a room?

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And you said no, but you make your presence known,

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which really made me laugh, and I think is quite

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I don't saying that, but you don't remember saying it.

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Is funny.

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Really it sticks with you because I think it's it's true.

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You do.

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Well.

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You do light up every room that I see you in.

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Oh, you're back pedaling now, I see, all right, fair enough, Well,

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we hope you all had a very merry Christmas. Last night,

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before I went to bed, I was scrolling through Reddit,

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and it was pretty funny because a lot of people

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did not have a merry Christmas. I think it was

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just a lot of the sub reddits I follow that

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like am I the asshole? And ones like that where

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people were like, my mom was such a mean person

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to me all day and there was a lot of

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those kind of posts and I don't know what I

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did wrong, but my mom didn't die. It was it

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seems like a lot of people talking about their mom

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and you know, Christmas can be really.

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Hard when you're the mom, Yeah.

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Because you work so hard and you feel like you're

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just disappointing people and maybe you feel a little less

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appreciated than you know. I'm not saying I felt like that.

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I'm just saying, you know, I think a lot of

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women do reach like your your melting point on Christmas.

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No. Fortunately, well we all do really appreciate all that

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you do because you do a lot of hard work

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for Christmas and you need it very nice.

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Well, I appreciate your appreciation.

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Would you like a snack?

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No, I'm actually still full.

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Okay, Yeah, And I figure what I brought you is

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you're not going to be super excited about because I

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brought you to cookies that boy that I worked very

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hard to take off of the counter. There are cookies

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that you made, but they're my two favorites.

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Okay, Well, I'm glad that you like the cookies that

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I made.

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Yeah, I brought you one of these. These are like

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sugar cookies with peppermint in them and frosting on them,

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and they are so amazing. And then I brought one

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of your chocolate chip cookies, which you also put all

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the M and ms in.

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Well, I appreciate that that effort, but I am going

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to abstain from the snack to because I honestly maxed

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out my stomach yesterday.

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Okay, well I'll just eat all right.

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But they were both really good cookies.

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I won't ask you what you thought of the cookies

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because you abstained, but I'm giving them a ton out of.

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Ten that I kept making cook like, we made a

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lot of things, and we made way too many things.

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I had the intention of going and bringing some to

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the neighbors, but I didn't. And now I feel like,

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you don't really bring your neighbors cookies in December twenty.

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Sixth, because here's some old cookies.

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Yeah, obviously we didn't eat them all. So here's some cookies.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Today we are going to revisit the case of Barbara

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and Russell Steger, the.

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Very first case that you ever did, the very.

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First case, and it I went through the script and

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it was pretty bad. I'm just gonna be blunt about it.

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We had no idea what we were doing, and so

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I wrote it in like a different tense, and it

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just it wasn't great. So I did some work on it. Okay,

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I didn't like go overboard, but I did do a

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little bit of work on it.

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Were there any developments to the case since we first

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recorded it?

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Not that I could find. In the early morning hours

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of February first, nineteen eighty eight, in Durham, North Carolina,

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a thirteen year old boy called nine one one. My

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father had a gun and it went off, he said.

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Paramedics arrived to find Russell Staeger, forty years old, lying

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in bed, blood coming from his nose and mouth, and

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a bullet hole in the back of his head. He

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was still alive, but as doctors would soon find out,

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he was brain dead. He was taken off of life

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support and died later that day. His wife, Barbara Stager,

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thirty nine years old, was at the scene, along with

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her thirteen year old son and Russell's adopted son, the

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one who called nine one one. While the paramedics were

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working on her husband, Barbara stood in the bedroom saying

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things like, I wish he didn't have these guns. I

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kept telling him about these damn guns. She kept repeating

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things like that over and over. It was distracting to

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the paramedics. To the point where once the police showed up,

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they asked, can you get her the hell out of here?

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Officers took her to the kitchen and asked what happened.

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She told them that Russell had been hearing sounds outside

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the house recently and was worried about prowlers. He was

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going through a stage where he was keeping a gun

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with him all the time in the car and even

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under his pillow. Barbara explained that she heard her son

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Jason get up to use the bathroom around six am,

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and her first thought was, I hope Russell doesn't think

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it's a burglar and go for the gun. So just

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to be safe, she grabbed the gun from under the pillow.

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As she was pulling the gun out from under Russell's pillow,

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it went off. She said that she barely touched it.

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The initial thought by investigators was that Barbara seemed sincere

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and it was most likely a tragic accident, but that

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conclusion didn't last long. The very next day, Durham Police

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detective Rick Buchanan got a call from Russell's ex wife,

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a woman named joe Lynn Snow. After their divorce, she

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and Russell eventually became friends and he had confided in

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her about things, so she called the police, saying I

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need to talk to you. She came into the police

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station and met with Detective Buchanan, bringing a letter with her.

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She was nervous and wanted to have everything written out.

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I won't read the whole letter, but here are a

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few of the most interesting parts. First, to the point

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of Russell's attitude towards guns. Russell completed Army basic training

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in the late nineteen sixties, and I believe he's been

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in the Army reserves for at least ten years, maybe more.

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He received the best training this country has to offer

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in the use and proper storage of the handgun. Russell

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had a gun during our marriage, but I only saw

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it on maybe two occasions. It was kept safely in

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a drawer, unloaded. Russell had a very healthy respect for guns,

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and I remember his comments about accidental shootings and how

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they would never happen if people handled their guns with respect.

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He would never have slept with a loaded gun under

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his pillow. The police would later talk to some of

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Russell's fellow Army reservists and they had the same thing

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to say about his training and his caution around guns. Second,

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Joe Lynn had some things to say about a possible motive.

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Russe found huge sums of money missing and she could

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not account for it. He also thought she was having

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an affair and followed her one weekend morning to a

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parking lot where she parked her car, got out and

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got into a man's car and immediately began heavy petting.

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But then came the most shocking revelation of all. Russell

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feared for his safety with his wife. Barbara. Russell no

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longer believed that her first husband's wound was accidental. He

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too died from a gunshot wound, and Barbara was the

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only person with him. Russell always said that if anything

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suspicious happened to him that he would want me to

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remember his telling me that Russell thought Barbara did not

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have a firm grasp on reality.

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You said. Initially the police thought that Barbara's story sounded valid,

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But then when they found out that her first husband

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also died from a questionable gunshot wound, that must have

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changed the course of the investigation.

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Yeah, for sure, I'm sure they would have eventually found

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that out anyway, but to find it out from Russell's

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ex wife the next day must have been quite a shock.

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And knowing that he shared all this information with his

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first wife, that's a.

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Little eye opening.

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Yeah.

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We will talk more about Jolyn's letter and about Barbara's

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first husband in a bit, but first let's talk about

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Barbara's background. Barbara Terry was raised in Durham. Her dad, James,

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worked for Duke Power Company, and her mom, Marva, was

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a secretary at Duke Medical Center, where Barbara would also

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00:11:32.679 --> 00:11:36.399
eventually work. By all accounts, the family was hardworking, church

246
00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:38.840
going country folk with strong values.

247
00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:43.039
Countryfolk. Yeah, I think where country folk, ah that maybe

248
00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:43.840
we kind of are.

249
00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:47.039
A little bit maybe. Barbara was their first child, born

250
00:11:47.080 --> 00:11:50.000
in nineteen forty eight. By all accounts, she was shy

251
00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:53.519
and obedient, worked hard to get good grades, was noted

252
00:11:53.559 --> 00:11:56.799
for good behavior at school, although her eighth grade teacher

253
00:11:56.840 --> 00:12:00.879
did note that she was emotionally immature. Family was active

254
00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:03.440
at the same Baptist church that her father had grown

255
00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:08.159
up in. Barbara attended Sunday school, Sunday services, prayer meetings,

256
00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:12.480
Bible school in the summers, very much a traditional Christian upbringing.

257
00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:15.440
Just before ninth grade, the family moved to a new

258
00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:18.639
home out in the country north of Durham on seven acres.

259
00:12:19.080 --> 00:12:22.320
She loved kids and wanted to become an elementary school teacher.

260
00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:26.000
She didn't drink, she didn't smoke, she didn't curse, didn't

261
00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:28.679
talk back, and was always home when she was supposed

262
00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:32.639
to be seemingly the model child, especially for her conservative

263
00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:36.799
religious parents. She had good SAT scores and got accepted

264
00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:40.879
at Appalachian State Teachers College, about two hundred miles from Durham.

265
00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:43.919
It was there, during her freshman year that Barbara met

266
00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:47.960
Larry Ford, her first real boyfriend. Although Barbara had grown

267
00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:51.440
up in this kind of repressed religious environment, she and

268
00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:54.279
Larry had sex the first time they were alone together

269
00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:57.159
in the instrument closet of the band room at school.

270
00:12:57.320 --> 00:13:00.799
Oh Barbara was eager for the relationship to her and serious,

271
00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:03.960
while Larry was more reticent and even a bit turned

272
00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:07.080
off by the fact that she was pushing him very aggressively.

273
00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:10.480
During this time, there was a strange incident that happened

274
00:13:10.480 --> 00:13:13.159
with Barbara at school. She came back to her dorm

275
00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:16.039
room on a Saturday night and seemed sort of off.

276
00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:19.559
Barbara's roommate asked her, are you all right? But Barbara

277
00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:23.159
just started making weird animal like noises and sat on

278
00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:25.360
the edge of her bed, shaking her head and moaning.

279
00:13:25.799 --> 00:13:28.320
Her roommate couldn't get anything out of her and finally

280
00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:31.000
went to get help from the dorm mother. No one

281
00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:33.080
could get a response from her, and so they finally

282
00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:35.879
took her to the hospital, where she was sedated and

283
00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:39.960
kept overnight for observation. The next day she seemed fine.

284
00:13:40.519 --> 00:13:44.200
It was very bizarre behavior. Barbara's roommate felt like this

285
00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:47.159
had something to do with her relationship with Larry, that

286
00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:50.080
maybe Larry was trying to pull away and this was

287
00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:51.440
how Barbara reacted.

288
00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:54.480
So was she diagnosed with anything, Not that.

289
00:13:54.440 --> 00:13:56.200
I'm aware of. It seemed like it was just sort

290
00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:59.000
of a one off incident and she seemed fine the

291
00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:00.720
next day. So they were like, okay, but it's just

292
00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:03.840
a very very odd thing to react that way or

293
00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:05.200
to behave that way.

294
00:14:05.600 --> 00:14:08.480
A few months into their relationship, Larry told Barbara that

295
00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:10.799
he wanted to break but a week or so later,

296
00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:13.879
she called him to let him know that she was pregnant.

297
00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:16.159
She told him that he didn't have to marry her,

298
00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:18.679
but Larry wanted to do what he believed was the

299
00:14:18.759 --> 00:14:21.200
right thing. He knew that this would make his goal

300
00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:24.279
of finishing college more challenging, but he asked Barbara to

301
00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:27.519
marry him. They hastily arranged a wedding in front of

302
00:14:27.559 --> 00:14:31.120
a few friends and family members in May nineteen sixty eight.

303
00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:35.720
Friends noted that the event seemed subdued and lacking in joy.

304
00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:38.559
After the wedding, Barbara and Larry both returned to their

305
00:14:38.600 --> 00:14:41.440
dorm rooms to wrap up the final week of classes

306
00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:42.159
for the semester.

307
00:14:42.279 --> 00:14:44.320
It's quite a way to start a marriage, isn't it.

308
00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:46.759
Yeah, you would think maybe you would wait till after

309
00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:47.279
your finals.

310
00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:48.960
It just sounds like it was really You know, this

311
00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:51.799
is nineteen sixty eight, and when somebody got pregnant out

312
00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:55.200
of wedlock, depending on your family, get married.

313
00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:57.799
As soon as possible. When the semester ended, Larry and

314
00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:00.399
Barbara drove to his parents' home, as they they hadn't

315
00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:03.480
yet met Barbara. They tried to be welcoming to their

316
00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:07.000
new daughter in law, but the situation was uncomfortable for everyone,

317
00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:10.279
and it got more awkward when Barbara would start passionately

318
00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:14.799
kissing Larry in front of them. Larry's mom, Doris, later recalled,

319
00:15:15.159 --> 00:15:17.960
I never had seen anything in my life that came

320
00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:21.240
close to that. They felt like Barbara had no modesty

321
00:15:21.399 --> 00:15:25.080
or sense of proper behavior. The marriage seemed doomed from

322
00:15:25.120 --> 00:15:28.799
the beginning. Larry had reservations going into the marriage, causing

323
00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:32.240
him to become withdrawn as time went on, and Barbara

324
00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:35.240
seemed to have two strong compulsions that would make Larry

325
00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:39.240
more and more uncomfortable over time. The first was her

326
00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:43.159
strong sexual urges and the second was her compulsion for

327
00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:46.080
spending money. But in the early days they tried to

328
00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:49.080
make things work. Larry got a job at a manufacturing

329
00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:51.600
plant for the summer, and Barbara got a job at

330
00:15:51.639 --> 00:15:55.039
a hospital doing administrative work, and they prepared for the

331
00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:58.480
coming baby. When fall came, Larry went back to school,

332
00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:01.120
where Barbara continued to work and live in the mobile

333
00:16:01.159 --> 00:16:04.000
home they had bought. It was not an ideal situation.

334
00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:06.720
He was back at school living in the dorms while

335
00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:08.919
she was working and living an hour and a half

336
00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:12.639
away in a mobile home. She was resentful knowing that

337
00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:16.200
Larry was living like a single college student. Barbara gave

338
00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:18.960
birth to a boy in December nineteen sixty eight, and

339
00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:22.559
they named him James Brian, after Barbara's father, but they

340
00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:25.600
called him Brian. They settled into this life, with Larry

341
00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:29.759
trying to finish school while supporting the family. Barbara eventually

342
00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:32.600
working as a bank clerk. While working at the bank,

343
00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:37.759
Barbara started flaunting her sexuality, making her female coworkers uncomfortable.

344
00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:41.320
She often wore revealing mini skirts to work and would

345
00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:45.440
blatantly flirt with male employees and customers. One of her

346
00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:48.960
coworkers later said, Barbara could be with a group of women,

347
00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:52.440
acting perfectly normal, but if a man came around, she

348
00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:56.639
would suddenly become an entirely different person, all aglow. It

349
00:16:56.799 --> 00:17:00.440
was really something to see. She developed a reputation around

350
00:17:00.440 --> 00:17:03.480
the bank is being loose, and indeed she did have

351
00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:07.000
affairs with customers. She had at least three relationships with

352
00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:10.000
other men during the course of her marriage to Larry.

353
00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:13.519
Larry first got wind of Barbara's deceptions when she told

354
00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:16.279
Larry she was spending the weekend with some girlfriends at

355
00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:19.759
her parents' beach cottage. After she left, Larry got a

356
00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:22.920
late night phone call. It was a woman's voice and

357
00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:25.680
she just said, do you know where your wife is?

358
00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:28.759
It's interesting. In a number of cases we've covered, people

359
00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:32.359
find out about their spouse being unfaithful through an anonymous

360
00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:35.400
phone call or an anonymous letter or something like that.

361
00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:37.640
It must be very jarring to get that phone call.

362
00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:40.839
I'm so grateful I have never received such a message.

363
00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:43.799
It would be really upsetting. Yes, so Larry at this

364
00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:46.920
point is very suspicious, and he tried to track Barbara down.

365
00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:49.240
There was no phone at the beach house, so he

366
00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:52.079
called the police in the area, asking them to check

367
00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:55.480
on the house. They reported back that the house was empty.

368
00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:58.079
There was no one staying there that weekend. What do

369
00:17:58.079 --> 00:17:59.359
you think he said to them.

370
00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:01.920
I don't know. I guess he just called and said,

371
00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:04.839
I'm worried about my wife. Worried my wife is cheating

372
00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:06.720
on me. Could you go check the house please.

373
00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:09.880
Larry never found out where Barbara was that weekend, but

374
00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:12.920
he knew that she was lying to him. Still, the

375
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:15.759
couple bought a house together, and Barbara worked hard to

376
00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:19.839
furnish the house perfectly. She was, in fact, obsessed with perfection,

377
00:18:20.119 --> 00:18:23.160
no matter the cost. This is where Barbara's spending first

378
00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:26.160
became an issue for the couple. Whatever she bought for

379
00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:29.559
the house had to be the best. While Larry was

380
00:18:29.559 --> 00:18:32.799
still in school and the couple's income limited, They soon

381
00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:36.519
sank into debt so deep that Larry couldn't imagine how

382
00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:39.599
they could ever get their heads above water again. They

383
00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:43.480
had a second child, Jason, in nineteen seventy four. When

384
00:18:43.480 --> 00:18:46.640
he was three months old, Barbara and Larry separated. While

385
00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:50.079
initially in the relationship, Larry had been the reluctant one,

386
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:53.519
now he was the one pushing to reconcile. At the

387
00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:56.920
same time his family was telling him, maybe you should

388
00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.359
just move on. Larry and Barbara did end up reconciling

389
00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:04.240
in nineteen seventy five, but nothing really changed. Barbara had

390
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:08.000
more affairs and went on more spending spreeze, so as

391
00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:11.279
far as you know, Larry didn't have any retaliatory affairs,

392
00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:14.640
not that I know of. Fast forward to nineteen seventy eight,

393
00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:17.599
Barbara called the minister at their church and told him

394
00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:20.319
that she was worried that someone was following her home

395
00:19:20.359 --> 00:19:23.079
from work at night. She wanted to buy a gun

396
00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:26.200
for protection and needed a character reference to get a

397
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:29.759
gun permit. She bought a twenty five caliber pistol and

398
00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:31.799
had a friend teach her how to use it.

399
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:33.920
I found it interesting that she had to get a

400
00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:36.599
character reference to buy a gun. I've never heard of that,

401
00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:40.680
and this was, you know, early seventies or mid seventies,

402
00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:44.839
but I think gun laws have probably changed a little bit.

403
00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:48.319
Yeah, That same night, after Barbara purchased and learned how

404
00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:51.000
to use her new gun, Larry came home from his

405
00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:55.039
taekwondo class and wound up dead, shot in the chest.

406
00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:58.319
He was just twenty nine years old. We'll be back

407
00:19:58.640 --> 00:19:59.440
after a break.

408
00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:13.359
The call came in at twelve thirty six am on

409
00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:17.440
March twenty second, nineteen seventy eight. When police arrived, Barbara

410
00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:20.160
met them at the door, saying, my husband's been shot.

411
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:24.119
He's upstairs. I think he's dead. The first responders found

412
00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:27.039
Larry lying on his back in bed. When they raised

413
00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:29.839
his pajama top, the cause of death was apparent a

414
00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:33.000
bullet hole in his chest. Near his left hip was

415
00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:36.279
a loaded clip for a semi automatic pistol. The gun

416
00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:39.160
itself was lying on the carpet beside the bed, as

417
00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:42.240
if it had fallen from his right hand. Barbara told

418
00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:45.200
investigators she had gone downstairs to sleep on the couch

419
00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:48.240
that night because Larry had been tossing and turning due

420
00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:51.359
to getting kicked in the groin during his taekwondo class.

421
00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:53.920
While she was down on the couch, she heard a

422
00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:56.759
gun shot and went up to find Larry bleeding and

423
00:20:56.880 --> 00:20:57.880
gasping for breath.

424
00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:00.000
Okay, I'm sorry. I have never been kicked in the grid,

425
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:03.759
So is that a pain that you would continue to have?

426
00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:06.519
I thought it was like really really severe pain for

427
00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:08.000
a few minutes and then it passed.

428
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:11.720
I think it could make you uncomfortable for a while afterwards.

429
00:21:12.039 --> 00:21:16.000
The police believed Barbara's story. They figured that Larry probably

430
00:21:16.039 --> 00:21:17.960
wanted to look at the gun because it was new,

431
00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:20.960
took the clip out, figuring that would make it safe,

432
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:23.880
but didn't realize that around was still in the chamber.

433
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:26.319
You hear about that happening a lot, so it did

434
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:29.039
sound feasible. You do hear about that kind of thing

435
00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:30.880
happening a lot where you take the clip out of

436
00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:32.880
the gun and you think, oh, I've just taken the

437
00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:34.920
bullets out of the gun, But if there's still a

438
00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:37.599
bullet in the chamber, the gun can go off when

439
00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:38.200
you fire it.

440
00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:40.640
Okay, I did not realize that.

441
00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:43.440
The police went ahead and had the body sent to

442
00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:46.559
the morgue, which is not standard procedure if there's any

443
00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:49.400
suspicion at all that a crime has been committed, so

444
00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:52.000
apparently the police on the scene didn't have any doubts

445
00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:56.200
as to Barbara's story. Also, no autopsy was done. Larry's

446
00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:59.319
death was treated as an accidental death, even though the

447
00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:02.880
police an VIC concluded that it was an accident. Barbara's

448
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:07.599
behavior after Larry's death made Larry's family suspicious. She didn't

449
00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:11.039
show any emotion and she acted cold toward Larry's family.

450
00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:14.359
During the viewing at the funeral home, Larry's brother saw

451
00:22:14.440 --> 00:22:17.559
Barbara standing by the coffin with her mother, and according

452
00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:20.240
to him, she was crying and saying what have I done?

453
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:23.519
Over and over until her mother hushed her. She was

454
00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:27.759
also acting extremely social at the funeral home, flitting around

455
00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:30.759
and talking to everyone, and right after the funeral she

456
00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:33.680
started giving away all of Larry's stuff to people who

457
00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:36.519
were there. All of these things, along with the fact

458
00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:39.440
that Larry had grown up around guns and learned how

459
00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:41.359
to handle them when he was a boy and then

460
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:45.759
again later in the Marines, made Larry's family suspicious that

461
00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:48.359
Barbara may have killed him. This is kind of a

462
00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:53.240
strange aside, but fifteen days after Larry was killed, Barbara's

463
00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:56.920
former boss, a woman named Kay Pugh and her friend

464
00:22:57.079 --> 00:23:01.200
Brenda Wilmoth were both shot by Brenda's husband, a guy

465
00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:05.079
named Tommy Wilmoth. Kay died in that shooting. When he

466
00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:09.720
was arrested, Tommy told police that he believed that Kay, Brenda,

467
00:23:09.799 --> 00:23:13.240
and Barbara were involved in some sort of lesbian love

468
00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:17.839
triangle and they all planned to kill their husbands. It's

469
00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:21.359
a little convoluted, I know, but this was basically Barbara's

470
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:24.240
boss and a friend of hers that were shot by

471
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:27.559
this other guy, And basically they were prompted because Barbara's

472
00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:31.480
husband died, and he believed in his mind that these

473
00:23:31.480 --> 00:23:33.680
three women were all going to kill their husbands.

474
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:35.319
Do you know where they were shot?

475
00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:37.720
I think they were in a car together. I'm not

476
00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:41.240
sure exactly, but I don't think there was any evidence

477
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:44.640
to support his like his theory that there was this

478
00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:47.759
lesbian love triangle between these three women. I think it

479
00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:49.240
was all kind of in his mind.

480
00:23:49.519 --> 00:23:52.279
Do you think it was opportunistic because Larry had already

481
00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:55.200
been killed for this other guy to use that as

482
00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:57.519
an excuse, like, Oh, I was scared for my life.

483
00:23:57.559 --> 00:23:59.359
I thought my wife was going to try to kill me.

484
00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:01.440
Could have been potentially, but the fact that he actually

485
00:24:01.480 --> 00:24:04.359
shot and killed not he shot his wife, she did

486
00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:06.680
not die, but he shot and killed this other woman

487
00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:09.559
as well, seemed like he wouldn't have done that. It

488
00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:14.079
seems like he genuinely had something maybe wrong in his mind.

489
00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:18.160
So this shooting by Tommy Wilmoth actually caused the police

490
00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:20.640
to take another look at Larry's death, even though they

491
00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:23.480
had decided it was a tragic accident, but this made

492
00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:26.440
them think maybe there actually was more to it than that.

493
00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:29.799
During their investigation, there were a couple of things that

494
00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:33.920
raised suspicions. In her first police interview, the detectives found

495
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:37.880
Barbara cagey and unwilling to give much information. They asked

496
00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:40.160
if she would be willing to take a lie detector test.

497
00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:42.640
She said that she would consider it, but then her

498
00:24:42.680 --> 00:24:45.400
lawyer called back a few days later and said no,

499
00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:49.160
she wouldn't be doing that. Second, detectives did a swab

500
00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:51.799
on Larry's hands while his body was at the morgue,

501
00:24:52.119 --> 00:24:56.000
and the forensics analyst didn't find any trace of gunpowder residue.

502
00:24:56.319 --> 00:24:59.559
In his opinion, Larry hadn't fired the gun that killed him.

503
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:01.960
The only way it could have killed him by accident,

504
00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:04.839
is if he had dropped it, which was very unlikely

505
00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:07.279
based on where he was shot and the angle of

506
00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:10.359
the bullet and so forth. At this point, the detectives

507
00:25:10.359 --> 00:25:14.359
decided to have Larry's body exuomed to do an actual autopsy.

508
00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:17.960
Their analysis showed that Larry was shot at close range,

509
00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:21.079
maybe even with the muzzle touching his chest, but they

510
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:23.599
couldn't know that for certain because the body had been

511
00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:27.160
cleaned at the funeral home. They reclassified the death as

512
00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:30.839
a homicide, but they didn't have any solid evidence against Barbara.

513
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:33.720
They also couldn't rule out that an intruder may have

514
00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:37.519
shot Larry. Eventually, the investigation ran out of steam and

515
00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:39.119
no one was ever charged.

516
00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:41.680
Why couldn't they rule out that an intruder may have

517
00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:42.319
shot Larry?

518
00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:44.400
I mean, I don't think they had any evidence that

519
00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:47.119
there was an intruder, but they also couldn't rule it out.

520
00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:49.200
They just didn't have anything to tell them that that

521
00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:50.759
wasn't a possibility.

522
00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:54.119
I guess were there any additional fingerprints on the gun.

523
00:25:53.960 --> 00:25:57.279
Not that I read about. After Larry's death, Barbara and

524
00:25:57.319 --> 00:26:00.279
her two kids moved in with her parents back in Durham.

525
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:02.599
This was over an hour away from where she and

526
00:26:02.680 --> 00:26:05.880
Larry had lived in Durham. No one but her family

527
00:26:05.960 --> 00:26:09.480
knew the circumstances of Larry's death, and that suited Barbara.

528
00:26:10.079 --> 00:26:13.279
With seventy thousand dollars in life insurance money, Barbara set

529
00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:16.079
her sights on buying a new home in Durham, ideally

530
00:26:16.119 --> 00:26:18.960
in her parents' neighborhood so they could help with the children.

531
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:22.119
The first house she found was a neat little bungalow

532
00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:25.119
just two blocks from her parents. The owner of the house,

533
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:29.359
a man named Russell Stager, and his estranged wife, joe Lynn.

534
00:26:29.799 --> 00:26:32.880
Barbara liked the house, but Russ wasn't certain he wanted

535
00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:35.480
to sell. He decided to take the house off the

536
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:39.160
market and stay. Barbara meanwhile found another house, and it

537
00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:42.839
happened to be just across the street from Russ. Russell

538
00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:46.839
Stager's real name was Alison Russell Stager the Third, but

539
00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:50.000
to avoid confusion with his dad, he went by Rusty

540
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:53.640
or Russ. He was born and raised in Durham. Russ

541
00:26:53.720 --> 00:26:57.240
was a natural athlete. He loved football and baseball, especially

542
00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:00.240
A back injury in high school took him out of football,

543
00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:03.480
but he did play baseball and decided during high school

544
00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:06.640
that his dream was to become a high school baseball coach.

545
00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:10.720
Russ went to Mount Olive Junior College now called University

546
00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:14.559
of Mount Olive, which is about ninety miles southeast of Durham.

547
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:17.880
During college, he would regularly travel home or to other

548
00:27:17.960 --> 00:27:21.799
nearby towns to attend Durham High School baseball, football, and

549
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:24.759
basketball games. It was at one of these games in

550
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:28.240
Raleigh that he met Joe Lynn Ellen, who would eventually

551
00:27:28.279 --> 00:27:31.359
become his first wife. Russ was struggling a bit in

552
00:27:31.400 --> 00:27:34.599
college and thought about dropping out, but with the Vietnam

553
00:27:34.680 --> 00:27:37.440
War going on, he decided a better choice was to

554
00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:40.559
join the Army reserves. The Army sent him to South

555
00:27:40.599 --> 00:27:43.519
Carolina for six months of training, and after that he

556
00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:47.480
transferred to Campbell University, where he majored in physical education.

557
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:51.480
He graduated in nineteen seventy two, did a student teaching

558
00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:54.559
stint in Carrie, North Carolina, and then applied to the

559
00:27:54.599 --> 00:27:57.240
Durham City School District, where he got a job as

560
00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:00.759
a phized teacher and assistant coach at the Junie High School.

561
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:03.920
By all accounts, Russ was born to coach. He was

562
00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:06.839
a natural leader, and he acted not just as a coach,

563
00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:09.640
but as a mentor to the kids he coached. His

564
00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:13.200
door was always open, his players not only respected him,

565
00:28:13.240 --> 00:28:15.880
but really loved him. He used his own money and

566
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:19.759
also organized raffles and bake sales to help buy equipment

567
00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:22.960
for kids who couldn't afford it. After getting settled into

568
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:25.720
his job, he and joe Lynn got married in nineteen

569
00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:28.839
seventy four, and soon after they bought a small house

570
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:32.480
in Durham. The honeymoon was over pretty quickly, though, Only

571
00:28:32.519 --> 00:28:35.000
a year or so after they got married, joe Lynn

572
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:37.960
heard rumors that Russ might be involved with a student

573
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:41.079
and saw him holding hands with a teenage girl late

574
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:45.240
one night. They fought. Russ made lame excuses. He said

575
00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:47.720
he was trying to help a troubled student, and they

576
00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:51.240
patched things up. However, that was the beginning of the end.

577
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:54.720
Joe Lynn realized that Russ was still basically trapped in

578
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:58.480
high school from a maturity standpoint. His whole life revolved

579
00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:01.599
around sports, and she didn't really care at all about sports.

580
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:05.119
They didn't like each other's friends, and ultimately they realized

581
00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:08.319
they just didn't have much in common. So four years

582
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:10.200
after they married. They separated.

583
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:13.519
Not long after this. Russ met Barbara when she came

584
00:29:13.559 --> 00:29:15.480
to look at the house that he had up for

585
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:18.839
sale after joe Linn moved out is mentioned earlier. She

586
00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:21.960
didn't buy his house, but ended up moving in just

587
00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:25.039
across the street. Russ and Barbara didn't end up getting

588
00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:28.519
together right away. In fact, Russ was actually seeing a

589
00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:32.079
former student of his. This was a secret because she

590
00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:35.400
was only seventeen when they started seeing each other. Russ

591
00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:36.599
was thirty.

592
00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:39.279
Very inappropriate. I think it goes to the point of

593
00:29:39.319 --> 00:29:42.000
what joe Linn was saying that Russ was he was

594
00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:44.960
kind of trapped in high school, like his maturity level

595
00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:47.160
was sort of still a high school student.

596
00:29:47.480 --> 00:29:50.279
Yeah, this is highly disturbing. Did joe Lynn go to

597
00:29:50.279 --> 00:29:53.000
the authorities at all or tell someone in this school district?

598
00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:53.799
I don't think so.

599
00:29:54.200 --> 00:29:55.519
Were they openly dating?

600
00:29:55.920 --> 00:29:58.839
Not until after she got done with high school.

601
00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:02.119
During the summer after she graduated high school, Russ told

602
00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:04.160
her that he loved her and wanted to go public

603
00:30:04.200 --> 00:30:06.920
with her relationship. He said he wanted to marry her

604
00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:09.720
and build a life together. She thought that she was

605
00:30:09.759 --> 00:30:12.000
in love with Russ, but she also wanted to live

606
00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:15.599
up to her parents' expectations and go to college. So

607
00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:18.359
the young girl did go off to college in another state,

608
00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:22.240
but Russ continued seeing her on weekends. She came home

609
00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:24.720
for a couple of weekends and went to see Russ

610
00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:27.680
at Durham High School football games that he was coaching.

611
00:30:28.039 --> 00:30:31.200
After one of these games, she was introduced to Barbara,

612
00:30:31.480 --> 00:30:35.119
a new friend of Russ's. Russ told his young girlfriend

613
00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:37.720
that Barbara was just a friend who had recently lost

614
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:40.400
her husband, but it was clear to those around them

615
00:30:40.519 --> 00:30:43.799
that Barbara was hot and heavy for Russ. She was

616
00:30:43.880 --> 00:30:46.960
after him. There could be no doubt about how old

617
00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:48.240
is Barbara at this time.

618
00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:50.839
I think she was right around Russ's age, so she

619
00:30:50.920 --> 00:30:53.079
would have been I think twenty nine he was thirty.

620
00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:56.359
Russ pressured his girlfriend to marry him, but she ultimately

621
00:30:56.400 --> 00:30:59.200
decided that she couldn't. She loved Russ, but she knew

622
00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:02.519
her parents would never accept it. Also, she was in

623
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:05.960
college and living her life. She wanted to be young, date,

624
00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:09.599
have fun, and enjoy her college years. Good for her,

625
00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:13.480
Russ was crushed, but he wasn't alone for long. Barbara

626
00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:16.960
saw her opportunity, and within weeks they were dating, even

627
00:31:17.000 --> 00:31:20.759
attending church together on Sunday mornings. Things moved fast, and

628
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:23.880
the couple married in March nineteen seventy nine, just a

629
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:27.000
few days after his divorce to Joe Linn was final,

630
00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:30.400
and just five days before the first anniversary of Larry

631
00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:34.319
Ford's death. Barbara's children were eleven and five at this point.

632
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:38.240
Russ who loved kids, adopted the boys and by all accounts,

633
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:41.960
was completely devoted to them. Barbara's money troubles didn't end

634
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:45.279
with Larry's death and the insurance payout. Early on in

635
00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:48.319
her relationship with Russell, Barbara was still working at the

636
00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:51.559
bank and her cash strawer kept winding up short. One

637
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:55.000
hundred dollars here, three hundred and fifty seven dollars there,

638
00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:57.880
and five hundred dollars missing from a coworker's store that

639
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:00.720
Barbara had access to. That was all followed by a

640
00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:04.640
cash advance that she didn't repay, and house payment checks

641
00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:08.319
were bouncing. Her managers were looking into all of these things,

642
00:32:08.359 --> 00:32:12.079
asking her questions, while she made excuses and generally tried

643
00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:15.000
to avoid them. At one point during all of this,

644
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:16.640
she said she was going to be out for some

645
00:32:16.759 --> 00:32:20.519
minor surgery. Her supervisor suspected that she was lying and

646
00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:23.799
called the hospital where she was supposedly having the surgery.

647
00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:27.279
They told him Nope, no surgery was scheduled for Barbara.

648
00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:29.799
When she got back to work, they called her in

649
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:33.200
and told her that the jig was up. No more excuses,

650
00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:36.160
but they offered her a deal. If she would resign,

651
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:40.440
they wouldn't press charges, and she agreed. After that, Barbara

652
00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:43.240
got a job at a radio station to sell ad space,

653
00:32:43.480 --> 00:32:47.319
but she never sold anything. She kept making excuses, saying

654
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:49.920
that she was just about to close some big account

655
00:32:50.200 --> 00:32:53.039
and then something would always happen. Turns out they were

656
00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:56.720
basically paying her to go out and goof around. Her boss,

657
00:32:56.799 --> 00:32:59.640
a guy named Harry, didn't want to fire her because

658
00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:03.000
he was a friend of both hers and Russ's. Ultimately,

659
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:05.680
she quit the job because she said she had a

660
00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:08.519
new source of income. And that new source of income,

661
00:33:08.599 --> 00:33:12.079
as Barbara told her friends, was a book. Yes, Barbara

662
00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:16.680
was writing a novel called Untimely Death, a fictionalized account

663
00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:20.319
of her first husband's death. We have had several cases

664
00:33:20.359 --> 00:33:22.039
where this has happened.

665
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:26.119
And it's I think people like killers. They can't get

666
00:33:26.119 --> 00:33:28.000
it out of their mind and they just want to

667
00:33:28.039 --> 00:33:30.440
write it down. They want to confess without confessing. I

668
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:31.640
think I think.

669
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:33.039
In a lot of the cases they think that their

670
00:33:33.079 --> 00:33:34.359
criminal masterminds.

671
00:33:34.599 --> 00:33:35.480
Yes, that too.

672
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:38.640
So Barbara told her friends about it, but wouldn't show

673
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:42.519
anyone her draft. But she sent it to Doubleday Publishing company,

674
00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:45.039
who loved it so much they offered her a deal.

675
00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:49.880
They gave her a whopping four hundred thousand dollars advance.

676
00:33:49.640 --> 00:33:53.000
That's about one point eight million dollars in today's true.

677
00:33:54.319 --> 00:33:56.400
Not only that, but they told her that there was

678
00:33:56.519 --> 00:33:59.359
interest in a movie deal from a major studio.

679
00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:02.559
It's amazing. First time author sends in a draft, and.

680
00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:05.519
That's very impressive. Although I know this can't be true.

681
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:09.280
She took the letter from Doubleday on their letterhead to

682
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:12.480
the bank and uses to secure a big loan, which

683
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:15.599
she then used to join a swinky country club. You

684
00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:18.800
may not be surprised to hear that she soon defaulted

685
00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:21.119
on the loan, because these are things that you could

686
00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:23.679
get away with in the nineteen seventies that you can't

687
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:26.840
get away with today. The loan officer was suspicious and

688
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:29.840
called Doubleday, sharing with them that the letter that Barbara

689
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:32.679
had used to secure the loan. The people at Doubleday

690
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:35.199
told him they had no idea about this letter and

691
00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:38.760
the person who signed it didn't exist. It turns out

692
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:42.880
that Barbara actually got a rejection letter from Doubleday. Undeterred,

693
00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:46.599
she cut and pasted the letterhead physically. This was before

694
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:51.480
microsoftward and created the forgery herself. It gets even crazier

695
00:34:51.519 --> 00:34:54.960
because her friends, including Harry from the radio station and

696
00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:58.079
his wife, who were good friends with both Russ and Barbara,

697
00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:00.760
started to think that Barbara had made this whole thing

698
00:35:00.840 --> 00:35:04.079
up about the book. No one including Russell, had read it,

699
00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:07.519
yet she was claiming all of this stuff. Her friends

700
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:09.880
even went so far as to tell her they were

701
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:13.760
planning a big publication party for her, but she couldn't

702
00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:18.599
tell them an actual date of publishing. Coincidentally, Harry actually

703
00:35:18.679 --> 00:35:21.079
knew someone that worked for a Double Day, so he

704
00:35:21.159 --> 00:35:24.400
called her up. She checked into it and told Harry, Nope,

705
00:35:24.519 --> 00:35:28.039
we're not working on anything with anyone called Barbara Stager.

706
00:35:28.599 --> 00:35:31.639
So Harry felt obliged to tell his friend Russ about this.

707
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:34.320
He sat him down and said, Russ, I hate to

708
00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:37.119
tell you this, but there is no book Russ just

709
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:39.920
sat there in silence for a second and said, well,

710
00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:41.840
I guess we're lucky she's got the job at the

711
00:35:41.960 --> 00:35:45.079
radio station. He didn't even know that Barbara had quit

712
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:49.079
her job. Harry told him, buddy, she hasn't worked there

713
00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:52.760
for months. Russ started crying because she had been telling

714
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:55.480
him every day she was off to work. He had

715
00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:57.559
no idea how she was spending her days.

716
00:35:57.800 --> 00:36:00.280
Really takes a lot of gol to do a lie

717
00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:03.880
that big. I just, man, it stresses me out. I

718
00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:06.920
just can't even imagine like, yeah, going to work every

719
00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:09.760
day and no, I'm really not going to work every day,

720
00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:12.559
and I've got a four hundred thousand dollars cash advance.

721
00:36:12.760 --> 00:36:16.440
No, did she have some money from the bank or not.

722
00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:19.719
Well, she got the loan from the bank from because

723
00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:22.400
she told them she had this, you know, advance coming,

724
00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:22.880
and it.

725
00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:25.000
Was four hundred thousand dollars the loan.

726
00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:27.000
I don't think the loan was for that amount. I

727
00:36:27.079 --> 00:36:29.480
think the four hundred thousands of what she said the

728
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:32.559
advance was going to be, so she used that as security.

729
00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:34.519
But I don't know the exact amount of the loan.

730
00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:37.480
So you might be wondering if there was a book

731
00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:41.000
at all, And actually Barbara had started writing a book.

732
00:36:41.159 --> 00:36:44.280
She had an outline and a first chapter. As we

733
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:47.360
mentioned before, the book is a fictional account of her

734
00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:50.480
first husband's death, but really it was focused on her

735
00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:54.320
own trials and tribulations losing her husband and father of

736
00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:57.320
her children, and also being suspected of murder.

737
00:36:57.519 --> 00:37:00.280
I wish I could have found a draft of the book,

738
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:02.119
because I really would have loved to have read it,

739
00:37:02.199 --> 00:37:05.119
but I did not. I do know that, by all accounts,

740
00:37:05.159 --> 00:37:08.039
it was very amateurish and pretty cringey.

741
00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:10.400
Barbara's lies about the book and her job at the

742
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:15.599
radio station were only the beginning. Finance wasn't Russ's strong suit,

743
00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:18.480
so once he and Barb married, he turned over management

744
00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:21.639
of the family finances to her. He got his paycheck

745
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:24.719
every two weeks and turned it over to Barbara. But

746
00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:27.079
she didn't care how much money was coming in. She

747
00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:30.320
was spending like there was no tomorrow. Her credit cards

748
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:33.920
were pushed to their limits and beyond. She got loans

749
00:37:33.960 --> 00:37:36.559
to pay off other loans. She took out a second

750
00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:40.360
mortgage on their house. Russ was unaware of how deeply

751
00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:43.280
in debt they were until one night after barbar had

752
00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:46.679
gone to bed. He happened upon a cardboard box talked

753
00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:49.440
away behind a chair in the family room. The box

754
00:37:49.559 --> 00:37:52.880
was crammed with unpaid bills, some of which he knew about,

755
00:37:53.159 --> 00:37:56.280
others that he thought had been paid long ago. It

756
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:59.039
slowly started to dawn on him that their finances were

757
00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:02.119
in dire strait. It wasn't just the money that Barbara

758
00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:05.159
was lying about. She was also back to her old ways,

759
00:38:05.320 --> 00:38:07.840
cheating on Russ. She had gotten a job as a

760
00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:11.960
secretary at a company called Brame Specialty Company. There, she

761
00:38:12.039 --> 00:38:14.880
took up with a twenty seven year old salesman. He

762
00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:18.159
later said that Barbara was voracious in her sexual appetites

763
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:21.599
and seemed to feel no guilt about it. Russell learned

764
00:38:21.639 --> 00:38:24.360
about this affair when he happened to spot Barbara's car

765
00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:27.480
in an empty parking lot. He pulled in, confirmed the

766
00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:30.639
car was hers, and looked around. Why had Barb left

767
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:34.000
her car in this big, empty parking lot. Suspicious, he

768
00:38:34.039 --> 00:38:37.480
pulled into a lot across the street and surreptitiously kept

769
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:40.000
an eye on the car while he waited for her

770
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:43.519
to return. Sure Enough, a car soon pulled up next

771
00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:46.039
to Barb's car, Russ could see that a man was

772
00:38:46.119 --> 00:38:49.480
driving with Barb in the passenger seat. He watched as

773
00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:53.199
they started to kiss passionately. The couple was startled when

774
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:56.119
Russ pulled his car up next to theirs. The man

775
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:59.920
sped away quickly after Barb exited his car. A couple

776
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:02.599
of days later, Barbara told her boyfriend that she had

777
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:05.199
smoothed things over with her husband and there was no

778
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:08.440
reason for them to break off their affair. Imagine the

779
00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:11.960
panic of her twenty seven year old boyfriend when he

780
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:13.800
saw Russ pull up next to his car.

781
00:39:14.199 --> 00:39:16.519
Oh, yeah, I can only imagine. I think he was married.

782
00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:20.199
Also nice, Yeah, we'll be back after a break.

783
00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:34.960
After learning about Barbara's affairs and her other lies, Russ

784
00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:38.039
turned to his ex wife, Jolyn. The two had lost

785
00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:41.039
touch with each other for a few years after Jolyn

786
00:39:41.079 --> 00:39:44.880
remarried and moved to Chicago, but late in nineteen eighty two,

787
00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:48.800
after learning about some of Barbara's deceptions, Russ reached out

788
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:52.719
to Joeln. They chatted amiably a few times, and then

789
00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:55.559
when Jolyn and her husband moved back to North Carolina,

790
00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:58.679
Russ showed up one day at her apartment. She could

791
00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:01.880
tell that he was troubled and invited him in. Soon

792
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:05.360
he poured out everything, the lies about Barbara's book, deal,

793
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:09.440
their financial troubles, the affair. He told joln that he

794
00:40:09.480 --> 00:40:12.159
had thought about leaving, but didn't want to because of

795
00:40:12.199 --> 00:40:15.119
the boys. He loved them deeply and didn't want them

796
00:40:15.159 --> 00:40:18.519
to lose another father. He also told joln what he

797
00:40:18.599 --> 00:40:21.960
knew about Barbara's first husband. He said he was beginning

798
00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:25.000
to wonder if it really was an accident. Then he

799
00:40:25.079 --> 00:40:28.440
left her with a chilling request. I know it sounds crazy,

800
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.000
he said, but if anything ever happens to me, I

801
00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:33.880
want you to look into it. But just like Russ

802
00:40:33.880 --> 00:40:36.559
preached to the players he coached to never give up,

803
00:40:36.760 --> 00:40:39.800
he resolved to work on his marriage. He was determined.

804
00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:44.000
He convinced barb to rededicate themselves to God, the church

805
00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:47.880
and each other. They began teaching Sunday school together and

806
00:40:47.960 --> 00:40:51.320
got deeply involved in all of the church's activities. It

807
00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:54.920
seemed to help. Their relationship improved, and they started thinking

808
00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:58.079
about the future. They decided to buy a new house together,

809
00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:00.920
despite Russell's concerns about their finances.

810
00:41:01.239 --> 00:41:04.639
It was Russ faithful during his marriage to Barbara.

811
00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:07.480
As far as I know, I didn't read anything about

812
00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:11.840
him being unfaithful, but his past, you know, dating young girls,

813
00:41:11.880 --> 00:41:15.280
makes me a little bit concerned that maybe he right.

814
00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:19.159
I'm having a hard time reconciling what kind of a person, yeah,

815
00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:20.119
Russ really was.

816
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:23.400
Ye. Barbara got a promotion at her work, one that

817
00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:26.960
gave her flexibility to go back to college sixteen years

818
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:29.480
after she had dropped out to have her first child.

819
00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:32.079
At the same time, Russ went back to school to

820
00:41:32.119 --> 00:41:35.639
work on his master's degree. Russ finished his master's degree

821
00:41:35.639 --> 00:41:38.679
in physical education in the spring of nineteen eighty seven,

822
00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:42.559
while Barb got another promotion at work at the same time,

823
00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:45.480
she was doing well in her classes, maintaining a three

824
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:48.920
point seven grade point average. It seemed like things were

825
00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:52.760
going well, but as nineteen eighty seven progressed, the couple

826
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:57.920
once again started finding themselves underwater financially. They refinanced their

827
00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:00.880
home and Barb once again started taking out loans to

828
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:04.239
pay off other loans. She was writing checks that bounced,

829
00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:08.519
and soon the unpaid overdraft charges began to mount. As

830
00:42:08.599 --> 00:42:12.360
nineteen eighty seven transitioned to nineteen eighty eight, people noticed

831
00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:16.519
that Russe's mood had changed. He seemed quiet and withdrawn,

832
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:20.880
not himself. That brings us back to February first, nineteen

833
00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:24.400
eighty eight, the morning of Russell's death. We've already covered

834
00:42:24.440 --> 00:42:27.639
the circumstances of Russ's shooting, but let's do a quick

835
00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:31.400
recap of Barbara's story. She said that Russell had been

836
00:42:31.400 --> 00:42:34.960
worried about prowlers after hearing noises, and had started keeping

837
00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:37.840
a gun with him at all times, even sleeping with

838
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:40.719
a loaded gun under his pillow. When she heard her

839
00:42:40.760 --> 00:42:43.280
son get up to use the bathroom around six am,

840
00:42:43.599 --> 00:42:46.079
she was worried that Russell would think it was a burglar,

841
00:42:46.519 --> 00:42:50.480
so she reached under his pillow and pulled the gun out. Inexplicably,

842
00:42:50.519 --> 00:42:53.159
the gun fired, hitting Russ in the back of the head.

843
00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:56.639
Kevin Wilson, who was one of the lead EMTs at

844
00:42:56.639 --> 00:43:00.159
the scene and coincidentally knew Russell and Barbara pretty well.

845
00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:03.199
They went to the same church, had socialized together, and

846
00:43:03.239 --> 00:43:06.079
so on. He asked if he could do anything for Barbara.

847
00:43:06.519 --> 00:43:09.199
He knew Russ's parents, so he asked, do you want

848
00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:11.519
me to go get them or get the minister from

849
00:43:11.559 --> 00:43:16.159
their church. Barbara answered sharply, no, don't call anybody. I

850
00:43:16.199 --> 00:43:19.000
don't want you to do anything. Wilson was kind of

851
00:43:19.039 --> 00:43:23.719
shocked by how abrupt her reaction was, but he just said, okay, sorry,

852
00:43:23.920 --> 00:43:27.400
just trying to help. While investigators initially bought her account,

853
00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:30.400
the next day when joe Linn came forward, they knew

854
00:43:30.519 --> 00:43:32.320
that they needed to take a deeper look.

855
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:36.119
So joe Linn must have been really upset about this situation. Yeah,

856
00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:38.360
Ross had predicted his death to her.

857
00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:39.679
Yeah, for sure.

858
00:43:39.559 --> 00:43:43.280
To be involved in this level, and she obviously had

859
00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:46.400
cared about him a great deal. Yeah, really hard position

860
00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:47.440
for her to be in.

861
00:43:47.679 --> 00:43:47.920
Yep.

862
00:43:48.280 --> 00:43:53.559
The detectives immediately began pursuing several avenues in the investigation. First,

863
00:43:53.599 --> 00:43:57.760
could they corroborate Russ's mindset about guns and prowlers to

864
00:43:58.119 --> 00:44:01.400
tell other people about hearing noise in the neighborhood. Was

865
00:44:01.400 --> 00:44:03.440
he the kind of guy who would sleep with a

866
00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:07.679
gun under his pillow? Asking Russell's friends and acquaintances, it

867
00:44:07.719 --> 00:44:10.639
became clear that he hadn't talked to anyone about his

868
00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:14.360
fear of prowlers. Not only that he knew how to

869
00:44:14.440 --> 00:44:17.639
handle a gun. He was in the Army Reserve, had

870
00:44:17.679 --> 00:44:20.840
extensive gun training, and everyone who worked with him in

871
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:24.679
the reserves said that Russ treated guns with a healthy respect.

872
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:27.679
He knew the proper way to handle and store a gun,

873
00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:31.119
and would never sleep with a loaded pistol under his pillow.

874
00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:34.760
The second avenue of investigation had to do with motive.

875
00:44:35.199 --> 00:44:40.199
Did Barbara have enough reason to want him dead? Marital problems, money,

876
00:44:40.320 --> 00:44:44.800
et cetera. Was there any history of violence in the marriage?

877
00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:48.320
This too became obvious once the police began asking around.

878
00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:52.320
They learned of the couple's money troubles, Barbara's affairs, and

879
00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:56.800
her deception. This was all helpful, but it was also circumstantial.

880
00:44:57.199 --> 00:44:59.880
They needed to look at the forensics. Did the ev

881
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:03.440
I didn't match Barbara's story. A few things the police

882
00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:06.920
looked at here. First was the shell casing where it

883
00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:09.719
should have been. It was found just a few inches

884
00:45:09.719 --> 00:45:13.000
from Russ's head. When police tested the gun, they found

885
00:45:13.079 --> 00:45:17.199
the spent shell casing always ejected between two and six

886
00:45:17.320 --> 00:45:20.320
feet to the right and back of the gun, so

887
00:45:20.360 --> 00:45:22.800
it should have been somewhere more in the middle or

888
00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:25.599
the bottom of the bed. It almost looked like the

889
00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:30.199
scene was staged. Second, gunpowder should have been located on

890
00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:33.119
the sheets if the gun was fired close to the sheets,

891
00:45:33.159 --> 00:45:36.400
as Barbara had claimed. Barbara had washed the sheets the

892
00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:41.199
day after the shooting, after the police initially declared it accidental. However,

893
00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:46.159
gunpowder residue normally would still show up even after washing,

894
00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:50.079
but testing showed no gunpowder residue at all. There was

895
00:45:50.119 --> 00:45:53.360
no gunpowder and no cinch marks, which might also be

896
00:45:53.400 --> 00:45:57.280
expected on the sheets, blanket, pillowcases, and mattress cover I

897
00:45:57.280 --> 00:45:59.880
think it's odd that she chose to wash the sheet.

898
00:46:00.519 --> 00:46:04.440
If something God forbid happened to you, I would probably

899
00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:06.480
throw the whole bed away, like I wouldn't be able

900
00:46:06.519 --> 00:46:07.199
to sleep on it.

901
00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:09.119
Yeah, I probably would do the same.

902
00:46:09.559 --> 00:46:13.159
Third, there were no gunpowder particles around the wound in

903
00:46:13.239 --> 00:46:16.119
Russ's head. If he was shot from two feet, which

904
00:46:16.119 --> 00:46:18.559
is the way Barbara described it, there would have been

905
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:22.559
signs of powder on his head. Fourth, the trajectory of

906
00:46:22.599 --> 00:46:25.400
the bullet was wrong. The autopsy showed that the bullet

907
00:46:25.519 --> 00:46:29.719
entered Russ's head at a downward angle, which contradicts what

908
00:46:29.800 --> 00:46:32.320
Barbara said about the gun going off as she pulled

909
00:46:32.360 --> 00:46:36.280
it away from the pillow. Last, but not least, firearms

910
00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:39.039
experts did a trigger pull test on the gun and

911
00:46:39.159 --> 00:46:42.079
found that it took four pounds of force to pull

912
00:46:42.119 --> 00:46:44.800
the trigger. You know how they say that some guns

913
00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:48.079
have a hair trigger, Well, this gun wasn't one of them.

914
00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:50.320
It would be really hard for the gun to just

915
00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:52.719
go off without a concerted effort.

916
00:46:52.880 --> 00:46:55.519
I think all of this forensic evidence was really critical

917
00:46:55.559 --> 00:46:59.440
because in a situation where somebody is shot and basically

918
00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:01.519
you just say it as an accident the gun went off,

919
00:47:01.639 --> 00:47:05.480
it's really hard to contradict that. Right. If Barbara says that,

920
00:47:05.800 --> 00:47:07.000
you know, it's like, well, what are you going to

921
00:47:07.079 --> 00:47:09.760
do to say that she isn't telling the truth. And

922
00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:12.719
I think all these details were really key to building

923
00:47:12.719 --> 00:47:13.679
a case against her.

924
00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:16.639
Right unless dropped, I think it's pretty rare for a

925
00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:18.280
gun to just go off on its own.

926
00:47:18.400 --> 00:47:20.840
I think some guns do have what's called the hair

927
00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:24.079
trigger where it's easier to pull the trigger. But yeah,

928
00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:27.480
you're right, without intentionally pulling the trigger, I think it

929
00:47:27.519 --> 00:47:29.400
would be hard to imagine.

930
00:47:29.000 --> 00:47:32.599
Weeks past, as police gathered all this evidence still letting

931
00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:35.800
Barbara believe it was all routine. In the meantime, she

932
00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:39.119
kept calling and bugging them about getting the final reports

933
00:47:39.199 --> 00:47:42.880
so that Russ's life insurance could be paid out. Finally,

934
00:47:42.920 --> 00:47:45.639
in April, two and a half months after Russ was killed,

935
00:47:45.960 --> 00:47:48.159
they went to a grand jury and got the go

936
00:47:48.199 --> 00:47:52.639
ahead on first degree murder charges. Barbara Staker was arrested

937
00:47:53.079 --> 00:47:53.719
that day.

938
00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:58.159
In April nineteen eighty nine, two weeks before Barbara's trial

939
00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:01.079
was set to begin, a brand new piece of evidence

940
00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:04.760
was found. If prosecutors thought they had a solid case already,

941
00:48:05.119 --> 00:48:07.840
this was just the icing on the cake. This new

942
00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:11.679
evidence was an audio tape. A student at Durham High School,

943
00:48:11.679 --> 00:48:15.360
where Russ taught and coached baseball, was gathering uniforms out

944
00:48:15.400 --> 00:48:17.840
of the dryer and happened to see a cassette tape

945
00:48:18.119 --> 00:48:21.480
under one of the bleacher stalls. He was curious, of course,

946
00:48:21.559 --> 00:48:24.719
so he took it home, listened to it, and recognized

947
00:48:24.760 --> 00:48:27.719
coach Steger's voice. It turned out to be a tape

948
00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:31.239
that Russ made three days before he died, talking about

949
00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:34.960
his concerns. We don't have the actual audio, but here

950
00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:37.679
are some of the interesting parts of the tape. Remember

951
00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:41.320
this is Russ speaking the last few nights during sleep,

952
00:48:41.480 --> 00:48:43.559
Barbara has woken me up to give me some kind

953
00:48:43.559 --> 00:48:46.840
of medication. I've not taken it. Last night she woke

954
00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:49.360
me up and gave me what she said was too aspirin.

955
00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:51.480
But this was like four point thirty in the morning.

956
00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:53.760
She stood there to see if I took it. I

957
00:48:53.840 --> 00:48:56.199
did not take it. I placed it under the bed.

958
00:48:56.639 --> 00:48:58.559
She came back to check and make sure I had

959
00:48:58.639 --> 00:49:01.079
taken it, saying she wanted something to drink from what

960
00:49:01.159 --> 00:49:04.239
I was drinking this morning. Before I got up, she

961
00:49:04.519 --> 00:49:07.119
was over around there on the side, acts like she

962
00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:10.119
was looking for what I supposedly took last night. Now

963
00:49:10.159 --> 00:49:13.280
this was the night of January twenty eighth, a Thursday night,

964
00:49:13.639 --> 00:49:15.760
so she stayed there looking to see if I had

965
00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:18.519
taken the stuff. This morning. I got it out of there,

966
00:49:18.559 --> 00:49:21.559
although she was very looking, very close to see if

967
00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:24.280
I was trying to retrieve it. She made the comment

968
00:49:24.360 --> 00:49:27.000
that you didn't take that those aspirins I gave you.

969
00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:30.199
I said, yeah, I did. Well. I took the two

970
00:49:30.199 --> 00:49:33.519
capsules to Akord's pharmacy at Forest Hills and they said

971
00:49:33.559 --> 00:49:36.239
it was sleeping pills. Now, if I was already asleep

972
00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:38.719
at four point thirty in the morning, why would someone

973
00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:41.719
wake me up to give me two sleeping pills? Seems

974
00:49:41.760 --> 00:49:44.639
like a very good question. Russell. Later in the tape,

975
00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:48.679
he talked about another incident with pills. Back to Wednesday night,

976
00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:51.760
January the twenty seventh. Barbara had given me something that

977
00:49:51.880 --> 00:49:57.320
was supposedly for sinuses and some aspirin that supposedly was nuprin,

978
00:49:57.760 --> 00:50:00.360
And about five that morning, I woke up and I

979
00:50:00.400 --> 00:50:03.679
was feeling terrible. I was hurting real bad around my eyes,

980
00:50:03.840 --> 00:50:06.760
under my eyes, my temple, and I really wonder if

981
00:50:06.800 --> 00:50:09.920
what she gave me was sinus medication and nuprin. She

982
00:50:10.039 --> 00:50:12.800
also I had a real bad case of the cotton mouth.

983
00:50:13.039 --> 00:50:15.679
Even after all this, when she woke up and saw

984
00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:17.920
I was in pain, she tried to give me some

985
00:50:17.960 --> 00:50:20.840
more stuff, which I wouldn't take. He goes on in

986
00:50:20.920 --> 00:50:23.519
the tape to talk about money stuff and how he's

987
00:50:23.559 --> 00:50:26.719
not seeing credit card bills anymore, and how the police

988
00:50:26.719 --> 00:50:29.360
showed up to serve some kind of warrant because of

989
00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:31.920
a bill that she didn't pay, and how she took

990
00:50:31.960 --> 00:50:34.679
money from the radio station but never really showed up

991
00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:37.719
for work. He also talked about how he saw Barbara

992
00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:40.360
years ago making out with some guy in her car.

993
00:50:40.840 --> 00:50:43.800
Then he went on to talk about Barbara's first husband.

994
00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:46.800
I don't know what happened, but according to his parents,

995
00:50:46.840 --> 00:50:50.360
there was some foul play going on. He supposedly accidentally

996
00:50:50.400 --> 00:50:52.960
shot himself in their bedroom with a pistol. Now I

997
00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:55.719
have no idea what really went on, what really happened.

998
00:50:56.039 --> 00:50:58.360
She was there when it happened, and so were the boys.

999
00:50:58.840 --> 00:51:01.840
My question is, did to her first husband, Larry Ford,

1000
00:51:02.079 --> 00:51:05.239
accidentally shoot himself. And then at the end of the tape,

1001
00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:08.159
he says, I really hope that I'm being paranoid about

1002
00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:11.039
this stuff that's going on, but I really wonder This

1003
00:51:11.119 --> 00:51:15.159
is Russ Steger. This is January twenty ninth, nineteen eighty eight,

1004
00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:16.360
ten minutes of two.

1005
00:51:17.239 --> 00:51:21.320
My first impression is a student found this tape. Imagine

1006
00:51:21.440 --> 00:51:23.760
you're in high school and you find this tape of

1007
00:51:23.960 --> 00:51:26.400
probably a coach she really cared about. Yeah, must have

1008
00:51:26.480 --> 00:51:30.320
been super upsetting. Yeah, like what do I do with

1009
00:51:30.360 --> 00:51:30.880
this now?

1010
00:51:31.280 --> 00:51:34.760
Yeah? Extremely Just for Russ to have made this tape

1011
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:38.400
like three days before she shot him, you can only

1012
00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:41.000
imagine what must have been going through his mind to

1013
00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:45.559
feel that desperate to put something down in tape to

1014
00:51:45.639 --> 00:51:48.599
talk through his thoughts about this. It's just wild that

1015
00:51:48.679 --> 00:51:50.000
the police found this too.

1016
00:51:50.119 --> 00:51:52.239
Well and waking him up in the middle of the

1017
00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:55.360
night to give him pills. That doesn't make any sense, elf,

1018
00:51:55.440 --> 00:51:58.800
who would like, under what conditions? Why would she be

1019
00:51:58.800 --> 00:51:59.519
handing him pills?

1020
00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:02.480
Yeah, absolutely no sense at all. Yeah, wake up and

1021
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:05.239
take some aspirin. Like, why I.

1022
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:07.400
Was sleeping unless he was had he been sick?

1023
00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:10.039
I think he had had some sinus issues and stuff,

1024
00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:12.960
but it wasn't like he was sleeping soundly in the

1025
00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:15.079
middle of the night. And why would you wake up

1026
00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:15.559
your husband?

1027
00:52:15.679 --> 00:52:17.880
And again he's suspicious enough to take it to the

1028
00:52:17.880 --> 00:52:21.440
pharmacy and say what is this? Yeah, this happened so

1029
00:52:21.519 --> 00:52:24.639
many times in cases that we covered that you know,

1030
00:52:24.679 --> 00:52:27.360
the other spouse is really worried for their own life.

1031
00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:29.800
And it's so sad that he saw the writing on

1032
00:52:29.840 --> 00:52:31.719
the wall, but he was not able to get out

1033
00:52:31.800 --> 00:52:32.400
fast enough.

1034
00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:35.960
Yeah. At Barbara's trial, her defense tried to keep both

1035
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:39.039
her first husband's death and the audio tape of Russ

1036
00:52:39.079 --> 00:52:41.679
out of the trial, but the judge allowed them both,

1037
00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:45.519
along with all of Barbara's financial dealings. It only took

1038
00:52:45.519 --> 00:52:48.679
the jury forty minutes to come back with a guilty verdict.

1039
00:52:49.079 --> 00:52:51.920
You know how juris usually start by taking a straw pole.

1040
00:52:52.320 --> 00:52:55.559
In this case, everyone was on the same Page guilty

1041
00:52:55.599 --> 00:52:58.760
of first degree murder. She was sentenced to death, but

1042
00:52:59.000 --> 00:53:01.760
that was later over turned on a technicality and it

1043
00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:05.719
was changed to life in prison with the possibility of parole.

1044
00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:09.159
No one has ever been arrested or charged in relation

1045
00:53:09.320 --> 00:53:12.760
to Larry Ford's death. That really surprises me that after

1046
00:53:12.960 --> 00:53:17.840
Barbara was convicted that they didn't reopen that investigation, because

1047
00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:21.119
it just seems very clear that she probably, I mean,

1048
00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:23.400
it's almost the same identical situation.

1049
00:53:23.800 --> 00:53:27.679
But they had reopened it in the past, remember.

1050
00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:29.480
Yeah, they did, But it just surprised me that at this.

1051
00:53:29.440 --> 00:53:31.920
Point they just knew that there was just not enough evidence.

1052
00:53:31.960 --> 00:53:34.440
But I guess so. But it's sad that, you know,

1053
00:53:34.639 --> 00:53:38.679
Larry Ford never got justice and Barbara, you know, she's

1054
00:53:38.679 --> 00:53:41.400
in prison for life, but with the possibility of parole.

1055
00:53:41.880 --> 00:53:45.039
Barbara is now seventy seven years old. She did have

1056
00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:47.679
her first chance at parole in two thousand and nine

1057
00:53:47.800 --> 00:53:51.519
after serving twenty years. However, her parole has been denied

1058
00:53:51.599 --> 00:53:55.960
each time. She's currently incarcerated at the North Carolina Correctional

1059
00:53:55.960 --> 00:53:59.800
Institute for Women in Raleigh. Rest in peace Larry Ford

1060
00:54:00.039 --> 00:54:01.519
and Russ Steger.

1061
00:54:01.679 --> 00:54:05.280
The judge at Barbara's trial, He allowed in some evidence

1062
00:54:05.320 --> 00:54:08.159
that I think other judges might not have allowed in,

1063
00:54:08.960 --> 00:54:12.840
like about her first husband and their financial status and

1064
00:54:12.880 --> 00:54:16.320
the audio tapes and yeah, so I think this judge

1065
00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:19.000
should take some of the credit for her getting the conviction.

1066
00:54:19.280 --> 00:54:20.840
Yeah, I think so. Do you think it was wrong

1067
00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:22.679
that he allowed those in or you just think it's

1068
00:54:22.719 --> 00:54:25.360
one of those situations where one judge might roll one

1069
00:54:25.400 --> 00:54:27.079
way and another might rull a different way.

1070
00:54:27.320 --> 00:54:30.559
No, I feel like she's definitely guilty, Yeah, both of

1071
00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:33.079
these crimes. So I'm glad that he allowed it in.

1072
00:54:33.159 --> 00:54:36.360
And all those things seem very relevant as well, So

1073
00:54:36.480 --> 00:54:37.880
I think it made sense for.

1074
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:39.760
Those It is surprising a lot of times that judges

1075
00:54:39.960 --> 00:54:42.039
don't allow evidence that we feel.

1076
00:54:42.320 --> 00:54:45.039
Yeah, I know, and you know we're neither of us

1077
00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:47.920
are lawyers or legal scholars. But sometimes it's just dare you.

1078
00:54:48.400 --> 00:54:50.840
But sometimes it just doesn't seem to make sense when

1079
00:54:50.880 --> 00:54:52.239
a judge doesn't.

1080
00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:54.079
Allow something, or does it seems very arbitrary.

1081
00:54:54.199 --> 00:54:58.559
Yeah, for sure. So you believe that Barbara killed Russell intentionally,

1082
00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:01.360
do you believe that she also killed Larry Ford intentionally?

1083
00:55:01.400 --> 00:55:03.920
Or is there a chance that Larry Ford's death was

1084
00:55:03.920 --> 00:55:06.079
an accident and she just saw that and said, oh,

1085
00:55:06.280 --> 00:55:09.239
you know, accidents happened, maybe the same thing could happen

1086
00:55:09.280 --> 00:55:09.639
to us.

1087
00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:13.199
No, I believe that she intentionally killed both of her husbands.

1088
00:55:13.280 --> 00:55:16.840
Yeah, she seems like a very cold blooded kind of person.

1089
00:55:17.039 --> 00:55:20.199
I didn't talk much about her reaction to their deaths,

1090
00:55:20.199 --> 00:55:23.119
but from everything I read, she you know, she wasn't very,

1091
00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:26.719
she wasn't emotional. She didn't seem at all upset like her.

1092
00:55:27.039 --> 00:55:29.679
You know, people act differently people actually we know. But

1093
00:55:29.760 --> 00:55:32.920
she also didn't seem, you know, especially upset by things.

1094
00:55:33.039 --> 00:55:35.280
Do you think that she killed both of her husbands?

1095
00:55:35.360 --> 00:55:37.880
I do, yeah, and I do wish. Like you said,

1096
00:55:37.880 --> 00:55:40.840
there may not have been enough evidence to make a

1097
00:55:41.119 --> 00:55:44.000
you know, a rest of her in the Larry Ford case,

1098
00:55:44.039 --> 00:55:46.599
but it does It makes me sad that Larry Ford,

1099
00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:48.559
you know, has no justice.

1100
00:55:49.159 --> 00:55:52.519
Absolutely, I think that we should start a new drinking game.

1101
00:55:52.760 --> 00:55:56.639
Every time you say for sure, the audience has to drink,

1102
00:55:56.639 --> 00:55:59.639
and every time I say absolutely the audience has to drink.

1103
00:55:59.679 --> 00:56:02.000
I think you both are guilty of using those words.

1104
00:56:02.039 --> 00:56:02.679
An awful lie.

1105
00:56:02.800 --> 00:56:04.679
Could be our New Year's resolution.

1106
00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:08.280
To say them more or less to say them and

1107
00:56:08.360 --> 00:56:10.719
I just mean water because people should be more hydrated,

1108
00:56:10.760 --> 00:56:11.719
so you know, just to take it.

1109
00:56:11.800 --> 00:56:13.199
We just want people to be hydrated.

1110
00:56:13.639 --> 00:56:16.639
Russell was very forgiving to Barbara. He wanted to reconcile

1111
00:56:16.719 --> 00:56:21.800
their marriage, and he forgave the financial crimes, which are

1112
00:56:21.840 --> 00:56:28.119
pretty great, and he forgave the affair and the whole

1113
00:56:28.239 --> 00:56:32.239
like the big lies about the book. Yeah, should he

1114
00:56:32.360 --> 00:56:34.719
have forgiven her No.

1115
00:56:34.880 --> 00:56:38.039
I would have a really hard time getting past you know,

1116
00:56:38.199 --> 00:56:40.280
even one of those things, but all of them right.

1117
00:56:40.119 --> 00:56:43.519
Together, those were pretty big lies. And I think when

1118
00:56:43.519 --> 00:56:46.880
you're telling those big lies to your spouse, who you know,

1119
00:56:46.880 --> 00:56:49.280
you're supposed to, supposed to be your most trusted person,

1120
00:56:49.400 --> 00:56:52.880
that you would never lie. And yeah, I think that

1121
00:56:53.199 --> 00:56:55.199
I understand wanting to save your marriage.

1122
00:56:55.519 --> 00:56:58.719
Yeah. I can only speculate on the money side of things.

1123
00:56:58.960 --> 00:57:02.079
Maybe he felt, you know, guilty because he had kind

1124
00:57:02.079 --> 00:57:04.280
of let her handle all that stuff because he was like,

1125
00:57:04.480 --> 00:57:06.639
I'm not good with money, so you handle it. Maybe

1126
00:57:06.639 --> 00:57:08.440
he was like, oh, I should have been more on

1127
00:57:08.480 --> 00:57:09.559
top of things or something.

1128
00:57:09.639 --> 00:57:12.400
But but it wasn't like she bought you know, too

1129
00:57:12.480 --> 00:57:16.079
many clothes or makeup or whatever. It was like these

1130
00:57:16.079 --> 00:57:19.760
were major financial crimes, like she was, you know, changing

1131
00:57:19.800 --> 00:57:23.000
the letter head on. I feel like those were pretty

1132
00:57:23.000 --> 00:57:23.880
big red flags.

1133
00:57:24.079 --> 00:57:25.079
Yeah, they should have been.

1134
00:57:25.360 --> 00:57:27.280
Well, how do you feel your younger self did on

1135
00:57:27.320 --> 00:57:27.840
this case?

1136
00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:31.360
You know, not terribly, But I did rewrite a lot

1137
00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:34.280
of it. When I look back at the original script,

1138
00:57:34.440 --> 00:57:37.199
I wrote everything in the present tense for some strange reason,

1139
00:57:37.360 --> 00:57:40.519
like Russ goes and does this, and then Barb does this,

1140
00:57:40.719 --> 00:57:43.239
and so it was not very good from that perspective

1141
00:57:43.639 --> 00:57:43.880
you were.

1142
00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:46.760
I didn't really change mine because I thought that was

1143
00:57:46.840 --> 00:57:48.800
kind of one of the fun things about this is

1144
00:57:48.840 --> 00:57:51.599
going back and making fun of how bad we were that.

1145
00:57:51.719 --> 00:57:53.320
Well. The other thing that I didn't do in the

1146
00:57:53.360 --> 00:57:57.039
original I didn't share any background about Russell and Barbara

1147
00:57:57.079 --> 00:57:59.639
and I and I think we've learned over time. Oh yeah,

1148
00:57:59.760 --> 00:58:02.000
we really like to get to know the people we

1149
00:58:02.079 --> 00:58:04.400
can in the case if we can, and learn a

1150
00:58:04.400 --> 00:58:06.719
little bit about their upbringing, because it really does tell

1151
00:58:06.760 --> 00:58:08.400
you more about who they became.

1152
00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:11.679
Do you remember why you picked this as your first case,

1153
00:58:11.840 --> 00:58:13.880
because this isn't a well known case.

1154
00:58:14.639 --> 00:58:17.599
I really have no idea. I took this as my

1155
00:58:17.679 --> 00:58:20.039
first case. There was a book about the case that

1156
00:58:20.159 --> 00:58:23.519
I read. It was called Before He Wakes by Jerry

1157
00:58:23.519 --> 00:58:26.159
Bledsoe and I do remember it was a very good book,

1158
00:58:26.199 --> 00:58:28.159
and so if you want to go deeper into the case,

1159
00:58:28.559 --> 00:58:32.239
definitely recommend that. We hope you enjoyed this rewind episode

1160
00:58:32.320 --> 00:58:33.920
of Barbara and Russell Steger.

1161
00:58:43.599 --> 00:58:46.239
Are you talked in the beginning of the episode about

1162
00:58:46.360 --> 00:58:50.360
the pink frosted cookies? If it was the last pink

1163
00:58:50.400 --> 00:58:52.960
frosted peppermint cookie that you were going to have, like,

1164
00:58:53.000 --> 00:58:55.679
I'm probably not going to make them again until next Christmas,

1165
00:58:56.280 --> 00:58:59.039
and you knew that a cat licked it, would you

1166
00:58:59.199 --> 00:59:01.719
eat the cookie or would that be enough for you

1167
00:59:01.800 --> 00:59:03.599
to be like, yeah, I'm not gonna.

1168
00:59:03.400 --> 00:59:06.920
Eat This is purely hypothetical question because it sounds very

1169
00:59:06.960 --> 00:59:08.000
specific to me.

1170
00:59:08.639 --> 00:59:10.840
Well, I just want you to answer it. Please.

1171
00:59:11.360 --> 00:59:14.559
If it was the last one, I'd probably eat it.

1172
00:59:14.639 --> 00:59:15.480
Cat's tongues are.

1173
00:59:17.719 --> 00:59:18.679
Cite your sores.

1174
00:59:19.440 --> 00:59:22.079
If I was desperate, I would eat it, yes, And

1175
00:59:22.159 --> 00:59:22.519
would you?

1176
00:59:23.360 --> 00:59:24.719
Uh? Yeah, I would.

1177
00:59:25.199 --> 00:59:27.159
Okay, I'm glad you think.

1178
00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:29.679
About it for too long. But Cosmo came in here

1179
00:59:29.719 --> 00:59:31.800
and jumped up on the table and started licking the

1180
00:59:31.840 --> 00:59:35.159
cookie and we were talking, so I couldn't stop him.

1181
00:59:35.199 --> 00:59:38.239
So yeah, he licked the pink cook incorrigible that we

1182
00:59:38.280 --> 00:59:41.119
could just give it to someone else. Just tell you right,

1183
00:59:41.320 --> 00:59:44.000
not tell them all right. Maybe if we froze it

1184
00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:47.119
it would you know, get rid of any cat germs.

1185
00:59:47.119 --> 00:59:47.960
Great good thinking.

1186
00:59:48.079 --> 00:59:51.440
I think most people I don't know, do you eat

1187
00:59:51.559 --> 00:59:54.840
or drink after your pet? I'm curious. Normally people would

1188
00:59:54.840 --> 00:59:58.559
share like their cereal milk with their animal. Yea, Cosmo

1189
00:59:58.639 --> 01:00:01.679
always sniffs you know this, Well, he always sniffs what

1190
01:00:01.679 --> 01:00:05.519
I'm eating, but very rarely takes a byte or he

1191
01:00:05.519 --> 01:00:06.280
gets really.

1192
01:00:06.079 --> 01:00:08.400
Close to it. He gets like within a couple of

1193
01:00:08.440 --> 01:00:09.360
centimeters of years.

1194
01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:13.159
And I that's absolutely my fault. I have made a monster. Yeah,

1195
01:00:13.159 --> 01:00:15.079
but I know you have a lot of questions for me,

1196
01:00:15.360 --> 01:00:19.760
and well, I'm nervous because I have the memory of

1197
01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:22.840
a fruit fly. D I'm not going to be able

1198
01:00:22.920 --> 01:00:26.199
to remember anything that occurred in twenty twenty five.

1199
01:00:26.239 --> 01:00:28.199
All you can do is your best. But twenty twenty

1200
01:00:28.199 --> 01:00:30.400
five is drawing to a close, so I thought it

1201
01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:33.159
would be a good time to reflect on the past

1202
01:00:33.239 --> 01:00:35.840
year and maybe look forward to twenty twenty six. So

1203
01:00:36.280 --> 01:00:39.760
we'll start off easy. Okay, what was the favorite movie

1204
01:00:39.880 --> 01:00:42.480
or TV show that you watched in twenty twenty five

1205
01:00:42.559 --> 01:00:44.440
doesn't have to have come out in twenty twenty five,

1206
01:00:44.519 --> 01:00:46.920
but something that you remember that you enjoyed.

1207
01:00:47.280 --> 01:00:48.599
I don't know what about you.

1208
01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:53.039
I think, and I think this might be your answer

1209
01:00:53.079 --> 01:00:55.960
to We saw a movie called Sinners, which we both

1210
01:00:56.360 --> 01:00:59.599
really really loved, was with Michael B. Jordan. It was

1211
01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:01.719
like kind of of a horror film.

1212
01:01:01.760 --> 01:01:03.880
As people know what Sinners is, I think it's it

1213
01:01:03.920 --> 01:01:05.920
didn't get a lot of it as much as attention

1214
01:01:06.039 --> 01:01:07.880
as you would have thought when it first came out.

1215
01:01:07.760 --> 01:01:08.480
But it's so good.

1216
01:01:08.519 --> 01:01:10.400
It was so we saw it. I think the first

1217
01:01:10.400 --> 01:01:12.960
weekend it came out, we didn't know anything about it.

1218
01:01:13.079 --> 01:01:15.000
I think I was kind of like Holy Cow. In

1219
01:01:15.039 --> 01:01:17.960
the first I think it was literally like forty five minutes.

1220
01:01:18.039 --> 01:01:21.119
I was like, is Michael Jordan playing both parts? I

1221
01:01:21.199 --> 01:01:23.880
really couldn't figure that out. Yeah, Yeah, that was really good.

1222
01:01:24.039 --> 01:01:24.880
It was very creative.

1223
01:01:25.199 --> 01:01:28.559
There was a TV show that I watched called Adolescence.

1224
01:01:28.679 --> 01:01:32.559
I don't think you watched it. Holy Cow. It's very

1225
01:01:32.679 --> 01:01:34.679
very dark, but that was really well done. I bet

1226
01:01:34.679 --> 01:01:36.800
a lot of our listeners have already watched that. I've

1227
01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:39.159
heard that people like that just the other day, just

1228
01:01:39.159 --> 01:01:42.679
two days ago, I started watching I Love La on HBO,

1229
01:01:43.320 --> 01:01:47.519
and it's not meant for people my age, which I

1230
01:01:47.599 --> 01:01:50.320
know is a theme recurring theme for me is watching

1231
01:01:50.400 --> 01:01:54.039
shows that I have no business watching. But you know,

1232
01:01:52.719 --> 01:01:57.280
I know, but that was really kind of fresh and

1233
01:01:57.719 --> 01:02:00.239
funny and I like that, and I am and then

1234
01:02:00.360 --> 01:02:04.400
give heated rivalry another shout out. Oh I haven't finished that,

1235
01:02:04.559 --> 01:02:06.519
but yeah, you never watched it. No, I do not

1236
01:02:06.639 --> 01:02:09.679
recommend that for you or most men in your age group.

1237
01:02:09.679 --> 01:02:11.519
Well, I was going to give an honorable mention of

1238
01:02:11.679 --> 01:02:14.840
movies for Companion. That was another one I really liked.

1239
01:02:14.920 --> 01:02:17.440
I thought was really creative and inventive.

1240
01:02:17.639 --> 01:02:18.639
No recollection of that.

1241
01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:21.559
That was the one with the girl who was the

1242
01:02:22.039 --> 01:02:24.239
She was like a robot essentially, but she didn't know

1243
01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:25.079
she was a robot.

1244
01:02:25.119 --> 01:02:26.639
I'm going to take your word for it.

1245
01:02:26.519 --> 01:02:28.400
All right. How about least favorite? Do you have a

1246
01:02:28.480 --> 01:02:29.280
least favorite movie?

1247
01:02:29.320 --> 01:02:31.440
I do? Actually, do you know what it is?

1248
01:02:31.519 --> 01:02:33.360
I might because it might be the same as mine.

1249
01:02:33.239 --> 01:02:35.440
And Naked Gun. Oh no, not the same as I

1250
01:02:35.519 --> 01:02:37.159
was just looking at Reddit this morning because you had

1251
01:02:37.199 --> 01:02:40.159
given me these questions beforehand, because you're a true gentleman,

1252
01:02:40.199 --> 01:02:44.480
and you know that I have the Memory of a

1253
01:02:44.760 --> 01:02:48.119
What was dor a Tang? But I was looking and

1254
01:02:48.159 --> 01:02:49.840
read it and a lot of people were saying that

1255
01:02:49.840 --> 01:02:51.840
that was one of their favorite movies, and I was

1256
01:02:51.880 --> 01:02:54.960
really disappointed by it, because, like the original ones were

1257
01:02:55.000 --> 01:02:58.599
so fresh and funny, and I just felt like Leam

1258
01:02:58.679 --> 01:03:01.800
Neeson love them, but I don't think he delivered. As

1259
01:03:01.960 --> 01:03:05.480
Frank Junior, I was disappointed in it too. Yeah, it

1260
01:03:05.599 --> 01:03:08.159
just wasn't It just seems really forced.

1261
01:03:08.280 --> 01:03:12.119
Yeah, I agree with you. But my least favorite was Materialists.

1262
01:03:12.440 --> 01:03:12.920
Do you remember?

1263
01:03:13.039 --> 01:03:16.320
Oh? Yeah, that was so bad too. You're right, it

1264
01:03:16.360 --> 01:03:18.119
was comically bad to Coda Johnson.

1265
01:03:18.280 --> 01:03:21.679
Coda Johnson. Yeah, it was just so bad and Pedro

1266
01:03:21.800 --> 01:03:23.119
Pascal and the.

1267
01:03:23.119 --> 01:03:24.880
Plot was just like I want you guys to watch

1268
01:03:24.920 --> 01:03:26.599
it just because it was so like are you?

1269
01:03:26.960 --> 01:03:28.880
But again, a lot of people like that movie, if

1270
01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:31.360
you look at the reviews, because everyone loves Padroll.

1271
01:03:31.559 --> 01:03:31.760
Yeah.

1272
01:03:31.960 --> 01:03:34.280
Yes, So all right, let's move on to books. Favorite

1273
01:03:34.320 --> 01:03:35.360
book that you read this year?

1274
01:03:35.679 --> 01:03:38.519
Nobody knows you're here. I loved that book. There was

1275
01:03:38.559 --> 01:03:40.519
a few I read that are really good, but that's

1276
01:03:40.559 --> 01:03:43.000
the only one that I wrote down. Yeah, how about you?

1277
01:03:43.440 --> 01:03:45.480
My favorite was a book I read very early in

1278
01:03:45.519 --> 01:03:49.320
the year called James by Percival Everett. It was basically

1279
01:03:49.360 --> 01:03:53.000
a retelling of Mark Twain's Adventures of Huckleberry Finn and

1280
01:03:53.079 --> 01:03:55.119
it was just really, really well done.

1281
01:03:55.199 --> 01:03:56.840
I have not read that. I need to read that

1282
01:03:57.039 --> 01:03:59.039
so good. I'm looking at my good Reads really quick

1283
01:03:59.079 --> 01:04:01.239
because I want to give you guys a few books

1284
01:04:01.239 --> 01:04:03.679
that you could read between Christmas and New Year. Wild

1285
01:04:03.760 --> 01:04:07.440
Dark Shore if you haven't read that by Charlotte McConaughey.

1286
01:04:08.079 --> 01:04:14.480
That was excellent. By Broken Country by Claire Leslie Hall.

1287
01:04:14.760 --> 01:04:17.599
I really liked a lot. A book called The Last

1288
01:04:17.719 --> 01:04:20.280
Love Note by Emma Gray, and I'm going to give

1289
01:04:20.320 --> 01:04:22.599
you one more. I said it already, But Nobody Knows

1290
01:04:22.639 --> 01:04:25.239
You're Here by Brynn Greenwood. Also, if you're in a

1291
01:04:25.280 --> 01:04:27.920
book club, there is a book I read called Culpability

1292
01:04:28.280 --> 01:04:33.079
by Bruce Holsinger that I was really an interesting book,

1293
01:04:33.519 --> 01:04:35.280
and you haven't read that one, so I'm going to

1294
01:04:35.280 --> 01:04:37.039
give you that one as a homework assignment.

1295
01:04:37.119 --> 01:04:37.519
Excellent.

1296
01:04:37.599 --> 01:04:40.280
There was a book that I really hated called My

1297
01:04:40.480 --> 01:04:44.079
Friends by Frederick Bachman that a lot of people really loved,

1298
01:04:44.119 --> 01:04:45.880
but I hated it.

1299
01:04:46.280 --> 01:04:48.960
Well, every book is not for every person, for sure,

1300
01:04:49.480 --> 01:04:52.280
let's shift gears and talk about the podcast a little bit.

1301
01:04:52.559 --> 01:04:56.480
What pod story ours? Oh, this one, what story from

1302
01:04:56.760 --> 01:05:00.000
the last year is one that has stuck with you.

1303
01:05:00.199 --> 01:05:03.280
Off the top of my head, Betty Broderick will never

1304
01:05:03.400 --> 01:05:06.199
leave me. And I am very proud of the work

1305
01:05:06.239 --> 01:05:08.239
that I did on that one. And I don't say

1306
01:05:08.239 --> 01:05:10.440
that about every case I work. I do my best

1307
01:05:10.440 --> 01:05:12.719
on every case, but I feel like I felt like

1308
01:05:12.760 --> 01:05:15.440
I really knew Betty and that I told her story

1309
01:05:15.679 --> 01:05:19.239
pretty well. Yeah, And can I speak for you the

1310
01:05:19.400 --> 01:05:22.880
story about Molly and Jason helped me out with their

1311
01:05:22.920 --> 01:05:25.440
last Corbett and Corbett. I thought you did an outstanding

1312
01:05:25.519 --> 01:05:26.320
job on that case.

1313
01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:28.920
Oh thank you. That was definitely one that I felt

1314
01:05:29.079 --> 01:05:31.880
very proud of. But I also like, really like emotionally

1315
01:05:31.920 --> 01:05:33.880
connected to me. But the one I was going to

1316
01:05:33.920 --> 01:05:36.800
mention that has stuck with me is a doctor Anthony

1317
01:05:36.800 --> 01:05:40.519
Pignataro one. Yeah, because something about the idea of a

1318
01:05:40.840 --> 01:05:44.519
doctor that you trust these people, you know, you just

1319
01:05:44.559 --> 01:05:47.280
trust them with your life literally, and for someone to

1320
01:05:47.280 --> 01:05:51.360
be that evil and careless and just you know, bad

1321
01:05:51.400 --> 01:05:54.119
at what they do is just so scary. Well, enough

1322
01:05:54.159 --> 01:05:57.239
about twenty twenty five, let's look forward to twenty twenty six.

1323
01:05:57.679 --> 01:06:00.440
What kind of cases do you want to explore more

1324
01:06:00.480 --> 01:06:02.039
as we go into next year.

1325
01:06:02.199 --> 01:06:05.440
We talked about this a little bit before, but we've

1326
01:06:05.440 --> 01:06:07.280
been doing this for three and a half years, and

1327
01:06:07.679 --> 01:06:09.760
I want to branch out a little bit and maybe

1328
01:06:09.760 --> 01:06:12.920
do a few more cases that are love Mary Kill cases,

1329
01:06:13.079 --> 01:06:16.519
just a few more interesting true crime cases. So if

1330
01:06:16.519 --> 01:06:19.320
you have a recommendation for a case that's a little

1331
01:06:19.320 --> 01:06:21.159
different than what we've covered before, let us know.

1332
01:06:21.360 --> 01:06:23.679
Yeah. I think it's been really great, you know, doing

1333
01:06:23.760 --> 01:06:26.559
love Mary Kill type cases that are about relationships because

1334
01:06:26.599 --> 01:06:29.480
it allows us to talk about relationship dynamics and things

1335
01:06:29.480 --> 01:06:31.559
like that, but it also does limit a little bit

1336
01:06:31.599 --> 01:06:32.239
what we can cover.

1337
01:06:32.360 --> 01:06:35.039
So there's like we feel really comfortable talking about married

1338
01:06:35.079 --> 01:06:38.679
couples because we are a married couple. And yeah, but

1339
01:06:38.760 --> 01:06:42.159
it'll be interesting to do some different out a little bit. Yeah.

1340
01:06:42.199 --> 01:06:42.480
Yeah.

1341
01:06:42.519 --> 01:06:44.800
What about personally, what are some goals that you have

1342
01:06:44.880 --> 01:06:46.519
set for yourself for twenty twenty six.

1343
01:06:46.679 --> 01:06:48.079
I haven't set any goals for.

1344
01:06:48.000 --> 01:06:50.000
Myself, No, because you're doing.

1345
01:06:49.880 --> 01:06:52.719
Something every year. We talk about resolutions on the podcast,

1346
01:06:52.840 --> 01:06:55.480
and every year I've pretty much If I look back,

1347
01:06:55.519 --> 01:06:58.480
I'm like, yeah, I didn't really didn't really meet my

1348
01:06:58.679 --> 01:07:02.480
resolutions for this past year, So I don't know, I

1349
01:07:02.519 --> 01:07:05.320
really have not thought about kind of personal goals for twenty.

1350
01:07:05.159 --> 01:07:10.320
Yeah, I have. And this break that we're taking, I'm

1351
01:07:10.360 --> 01:07:13.239
trying to be more intentional with my time. That's really

1352
01:07:13.239 --> 01:07:17.280
a huge goal of mine, because life is fast and

1353
01:07:17.320 --> 01:07:19.159
it goes by and you're gonna miss it if you

1354
01:07:19.199 --> 01:07:22.079
don't slow down. And I'm just trying to use my

1355
01:07:22.119 --> 01:07:24.760
time better and not be online as much, not to

1356
01:07:25.280 --> 01:07:28.239
doom scroll. Twenty twenty five I think for me personally

1357
01:07:28.360 --> 01:07:30.639
was not my best year. I think my mental health

1358
01:07:31.400 --> 01:07:34.280
flagged a little bit, and I needed to just take

1359
01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:38.199
better care of my physical and mental health. So that

1360
01:07:38.320 --> 01:07:39.599
is my goal for twenty twenty se.

1361
01:07:39.639 --> 01:07:41.320
It's like a very good goal. Can I just adopt

1362
01:07:41.360 --> 01:07:42.840
yours then as my own? Also?

1363
01:07:42.960 --> 01:07:45.119
Well, yeah, I think we could all, you know, be

1364
01:07:45.159 --> 01:07:47.880
more intentional with our time. I don't know how you

1365
01:07:48.239 --> 01:07:51.599
especially do it. You do a lot, I know, Okay,

1366
01:07:51.719 --> 01:07:54.280
I'm not like giving myself too much credit here, but

1367
01:07:54.320 --> 01:07:57.159
I alleviate some of the stressage by the things that

1368
01:07:57.199 --> 01:08:00.119
I do, Yeah, a lot of it by cooking and

1369
01:08:00.119 --> 01:08:03.039
you know, doing all the A lot of the wifely duties,

1370
01:08:03.079 --> 01:08:05.159
but you also do an awful lot and I hope

1371
01:08:05.159 --> 01:08:07.760
in twenty twenty six that you and I can spend

1372
01:08:07.800 --> 01:08:10.599
more meaningful time like we love doing the podcast, but

1373
01:08:10.760 --> 01:08:13.119
like I said, I really feel like I need to

1374
01:08:13.559 --> 01:08:15.760
sometimes take a little more downtime, and I know you

1375
01:08:15.800 --> 01:08:18.560
do too, Yeah, that it might mean taking some breaks

1376
01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:21.239
from the podcast. We haven't really, We've tried really hard

1377
01:08:21.239 --> 01:08:23.960
not to do that. But I if there's one thing

1378
01:08:23.960 --> 01:08:26.479
I would want the listeners to know, it's that there's

1379
01:08:26.560 --> 01:08:29.279
just two of us doing this and sometimes it does

1380
01:08:29.319 --> 01:08:34.039
become overwhelming and we sacrifice our personal time to pump

1381
01:08:34.079 --> 01:08:35.079
out episodes, and.

1382
01:08:35.359 --> 01:08:37.319
Yeah, it does, and we do. We do love what

1383
01:08:37.439 --> 01:08:39.640
we do, but it does get to be a lot

1384
01:08:39.800 --> 01:08:41.439
with all the other day to day stuff we have

1385
01:08:41.520 --> 01:08:42.079
going on too.

1386
01:08:42.439 --> 01:08:45.640
Yeah, and because we can't support ourselves financially by doing

1387
01:08:45.720 --> 01:08:47.840
the podcast. You know, I just want people to remember

1388
01:08:47.920 --> 01:08:50.560
sometimes that we're doing our best. But you know, all

1389
01:08:50.600 --> 01:08:52.760
the aspects that all the balls that we have in

1390
01:08:52.800 --> 01:08:54.880
the air, sometimes it's hard to keep them all up

1391
01:08:54.960 --> 01:08:55.439
in the air.

1392
01:08:55.520 --> 01:08:58.359
So well, we hope that whatever personal goals you've set

1393
01:08:58.359 --> 01:09:01.079
for yourself in twenty twenty six, thing you meet and

1394
01:09:01.319 --> 01:09:03.880
surpass beyond your wildest expectations.

1395
01:09:04.159 --> 01:09:08.119
We hope that you enjoyed our rewind episodes. Next Monday,

1396
01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:11.520
it's back to normal. We love you guys so much.

1397
01:09:11.600 --> 01:09:13.880
Thank you so much for hanging out with us. Happy

1398
01:09:13.920 --> 01:09:14.840
twenty twenty.

1399
01:09:14.600 --> 01:09:16.000
Six until next time.

1400
01:09:16.199 --> 01:09:18.199
Don't care a husband and don't kill your wife.

1401
01:09:19.239 --> 01:09:33.600
Happen you you. We aday all the world every day subay.

1402
01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:40.000
You We are.

1403
01:09:42.439 --> 01:10:19.800
So job big be dome monest way down.

1404
01:09:48.720 --> 01:10:01.359
The It is

1405
01:10:05.520 --> 01:10:06.840
Kindled a