Feb. 16, 2026

The Menendez Family - Part 3 of 3

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In August 1989, José, 45, and Kitty Menendez, 47, were shot to death in their Beverly Hills home. Their sons, Lyle, 18, and Erik, 21, would later confess to the killings—setting off one of the most polarizing murder trials in American history. What initially looked like a mob-style hit unraveled into a story of family control, extreme dysfunction, and disturbing allegations of long-term sexual abuse. The trials exposed the private life of a wealthy, image-driven family and forced the public to confront uncomfortable questions about trauma, masculinity, and male child sexual abuse.

Today's snack: Ghirardelli Brownies

Support us on Patreon: https://patreon.com/LoveMarryKill

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Hi. I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. If there's one thing

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we've learned in over twenty years of marriage.

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It's that some days you'll feel like killing your.

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Wife, and some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hi Rich, Hi Tina.

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How are you.

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I'm doing good. How are you?

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I'm a little sleepy, but I'm otherwise great. I'm glad

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to hear I am looking forward to being done with

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the Menanda's case and moving on. I bet you are

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a lot of times when we do these three part episodes,

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or I guess when I do them, I have a

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lot of dreams about whoever we're doing the case on,

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and it's hard to shake it. Yeah, because you really do.

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You're immersed in the story and you feel like you're

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part of the story, and I want to make sure

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that I'm doing the story justice.

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Yeah. And it's been a few days since we recorded

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part two, so you've been living with this story for

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and I know that you worked on it for a

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long time, so you've been it's been in your head

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for quite a.

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While weeks, Yeah, since Christmas. It's Monday, February sixteenth. Thank

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you so much for the wonderful Valentine's Day gift you

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really shouldn't have.

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You're so welcome.

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I mean, how many carrots was that?

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That joke never ever gets old.

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Well, you never seem to take the hint. But it's

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still freezing here. We're still in the tundra.

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Yeah.

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Today, on the way home, I went out and it

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was about three o'clock and I was driving by the

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middle school fifteen degrees. What do you think the middle

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school boys were wearing.

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A light sweatshirt, maybe a little sack hoodie or something

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like hoodies unzipped.

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Well, they had like, you know, hoodies and yeah, but

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pretty much all of them were wearing hoodies and no jackets.

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But none of them were wearing shorts. But that cracks

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me up because I remember when our son was that age,

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it was like jackets. I'm not sure why, but jackets.

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You know, they're like allergic to them or something.

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Yeah, but it's it's pretty cold here. I thought that

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maybe we could get away this weekend and go a

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few hours south, but even you know, four or five hours,

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it's still really cold. So it's not just us. We're

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in good company.

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I was talking to a colleague that lives in Austin, Texas,

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and he was saying they got they got like an

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inch of snow, which wouldn't be a lot for us,

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but for them. Yeah, they had two days off school

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because of that.

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Some of our Australian friends have been sending me pictures

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of their beach vacations and it looks pretty nice to end.

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Some California people too, So they're doing okay, but most

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of us are still really cold.

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Yeah.

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So the other day opened Netflix and I was really

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surprised to see a popular podcast is now featured on Netflix.

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And I'll be honest, I was a little envious. Yeah,

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our competitors who are like two billion times more successful

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than we are, Murder with my Husband are now on Netflix.

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I know Netflix is going big into podcasts. I also

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saw I think it was last podcast on the Left

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is there as well.

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Isn't that one kind of controversial?

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I don't really know a lot about it, but yeah,

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it was surprising because it was like the featured thing

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on Netflix.

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Was so it's more than just Murder with my Husband.

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Yeah, it is that. I've read that they're going big

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into podcasts, but they're they're.

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Only I've gotten no calls.

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Well, they're only doing video podcasts. Yeah, people who do

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video and we don't do video.

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Yeah, should we? Should we do videos? Should we put

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ourselves out there?

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I think we're pretty both pretty comfortable with the decision

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not to.

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Well, what they wonder is how you keep recording? Do

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they stop? Do they break it? I don't know.

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I didn't watch, but you shrinking a.

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Lot because I make a lot of mistakes and.

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We had to go back and I'm sure there's some

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editing involved. But yeah, I'm curious about that too.

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Yeah, So I'm curious if you guys have watched the

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podcasts and how you feel about them.

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And if anyone out there works for Netflix and you want,

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you know, maybe a slightly lesser known audio only podcast to.

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Be on Netflix boring. I'm sure people don't want that.

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We've talked about this a lot. We have chosen to

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put our faces out there, and I'm still very comfortable

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with that decision. Sane, Well, I did bring you a snack.

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It's something that I made a few days ago, and

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I guess you haven't partaken in them. But I made

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some brownies, just a Garadeli mix. I have a problem.

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I can't just make a Gharadeli mix. But I put

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some caramel in them and chopped up symphony bar on

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top and some chocolate chunks, and then I frosted them

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so they weren't there. I'm sending them to someone beloved

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and special, so kind.

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To make them special. Well, yeah, I'm excited to try them.

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All right, Well help yourself, all right, so rate my brownies.

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What did you think?

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Oh? Kind of a ten?

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Easy?

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I mean, the Ghara Deli mix is so good. It's

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just chocolate e and then your additions I think helped.

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I think it adds just more. You know, it's a

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little decadent, but it's really good.

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Yeah, they are. They are cut very small. I should

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point that out. Yeah, I like things to be chunky.

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Well, the heaven the frosting on top is really a

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a key.

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Equipaking comment on you. I said I like things to

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be chunky, and you didn't. I was not body shaming you.

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You are perfect just the way you ask.

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That's why it didn't even occur to me that you

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were talking exactly.

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Thank you for coming back to part three of the

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Menandaz Family.

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I am excited to hear it.

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You're happy to get this wrapped up. I bet no.

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I'm just interested because I really didn't know much about

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this case before we started, so I'm interested in hearing

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the rest of the story.

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Well, I'm going to give this content warning one more time.

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Today's episode we really do get into deeply into some

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of the dysfunction in the family. This episode contains discussion

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of murder, family violence, and allegations of sexual abuse involving minors.

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Listener discretion is advised. Do you want to give the summary?

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Sure? In part two, we talked about the build up

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of family stress that led to the brothers thinking their

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parents wanted to kill them to keep their family secrets.

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So the brothers struck first, violently killing their pain parents

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in their Beverly Hills mansion. After the murders, Lyle seemed

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largely confident and unbothered, but Eric visibly unraveled and sought

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the help of psychologist Jerome Ozeal. He confessed to Ozell,

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who had been taping the session. After six months of

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extravagant spending and making plans for their new lives, Lyle

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and Eric were arrested after the police were tipped off

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by Ozell's mistress, Judelan Smith. Before their trial, began. Lyle

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and Eric decided to confess to their family they had

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killed Kitty and Jose, but only after sustaining years of mental, physical,

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and sexual abuse. Their attorneys made a pivotal decision to

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use this as their defense. The strength of the state's

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case largely hinged on whether the taped confession would be

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allowed as evidence. The trial unfolded just as Court TV

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launched and the rise of the twenty four hour news cycle,

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ushering in an era of true crime as entertainment. America

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and much of the world became captivated by the Menendez

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brothers trial.

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In July nineteen ninety three, nearly four years after Kitty

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and Jose's murders, the trial began. The brothers were tried together,

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although there were two juries because the state had had

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different evidence against each brother, but they both faced the

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death penalty. On July eighth, nineteen ninety three, seven women

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and five men were sworn in as the jury for

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Lyle Menendez. One week later, a separateury was seated for Eric,

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made up of six women and six men. Judge Stanley

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Weisberg presided over the trial. He became a household name

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in LA after the nineteen ninety three Rodney King trial,

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and years earlier, he had presided over the McMartin preschool

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trial during the Satanic Panic of the nineteen eighties. Do

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you remember this? We covered that in an episode briefly.

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That was one of the longest trials in US history.

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Do you remember how long?

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No? I don't.

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Do you want to take again? Yes?

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Like, I don't know eight months?

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No, it was two and a half over two and

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a half years. Prosecutors Pam Bozanitch and Luster Kuriyama argued

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the case for the state, with Leslie Abramson and Jill

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Lansing representing the brothers. More than a dozen Menendez family

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members testified, including cousins and an aunt. They paid a

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consistent picture of Jose as harsh, controlling, and frightening. Behind

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closed doors, they described a man who demanded absolute obedience

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and used humiliation and intimidation as tools of discipline. Family

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members were called being uncomfortable around him, watching the boy's

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shrink in his presence, and sensing that the household operated

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under a constant threat of punishment. Kitty, they said, was

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emotionally unstable, deeply unhappy, prone to rage, and she became

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increasingly dependent on medication over time. From their perspective, the

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home wasn't nurturing. It was tense and unpredictable.

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Now do you know if any of these relatives that

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testified were on Jose's side as well as Kitty's side,

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or was it just one side of the thing.

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It was both sides. Remember we talked about this in

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the last episode, but all but two relatives Kitty's brothers

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were completely in support of the brothers. Craig Signorelli, one

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of Eric's closest friends, testified that Eric confided in him

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about sexual abuse by his father years before the murders,

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not once, but multiple times. He described Eric as terrified, ashamed,

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and desperate, talking about the abuse in hushed conversations that

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felt more like confessions than accusations. Donovan good Row, Lyle's

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friend who had secretly lived in his dorm room, testified.

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Despite previously telling journalists Robert Rand and Lyle's attorney Jill Lansing,

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that Lyle had confided in him about abuse by his father,

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Donovan denied it on the witness stand, shocking Lyle's attorney.

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This journalist, Robert Rand, we talked about him. I think

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in the first episode his book was one of my

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primary sources for these episodes, and he is very invested

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in the case. He's very supportive of the brothers and

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he has met with them numerous times. He knows them well,

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he knows the story better than anyone. So he had

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sat down with Donna van Goodrou when he had a

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tape of this interview with him. When he says, yet

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he told me many times that he had been abused

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by his father.

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It's really shocking that they would change there, that he

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would change his testimony. Then yeah, But.

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Robert Rand had an audio tape of the interview, and

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Lyle's attorney, Jail Lansing, knew it. Rand had unintentionally done

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what every journalist tries to avoid. He'd become part of

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the story. To avoid being subpoenad he decided to play

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the tape on a local news channel that night. Then

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he was forced to hand over his tape of the

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Gaudreaux interview. The prosecution wanted him to be banned from

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the courtroom in case he might have to testify later,

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but the judge allowed him to return to continue reporting

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on the trial as a journalist. So this event was

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really stressful to him. Because he knew that Donovan Goodrow

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was lying, because he'd not only had discussions with him personally,

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but he had also talked to Jill Lancing about it too.

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So it was odd that he would deny knowing this.

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Very odd and I can see as a journalist that

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puts you in a very awkward situation because when you're

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a journalist, you want to protect your sources, and you

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know you can report on things that they say, but

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you're not.

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You don't want to reveal them.

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Yeah, you don't want to have to testify under oath

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about it.

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How much do you remember about Jerry o'zel or Jerome o'zeel.

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I remember he was pretty shady as a psychotherapist and

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that he was having an affair with this Judelan Smith,

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and she lived with he and his wife for a

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period of time.

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Yeah, very very strange situation. So when he took the stand,

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he appeared to the jury as a key prosecution witness.

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He was an esteemed psychologist and he would be on

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the stand for six exhausting days and by the end

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of his testimony, Leslie Abramson would say to the judge,

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I'm frankly sort of sick of him, but without o'zell

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there wouldn't have been a recorded confession and possibly no arrests.

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Under Leslie's relentless cross examination, his image began to fracture,

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and she was brutal. She portrayed o'zell as a man

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driven by ego, self interest, and fear. Abramson worked to

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establish him as self important, narcissistic, ethically compromised, and profoundly unreliable,

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more concerned with self preservation than with any genuine duty

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or regard to his patients, his family, or even his girlfriend.

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Clearly distasteful to the jury. O'zell portrayed Judelan Smith as

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unhinged and obsessed with him, despite evidence that he had

255
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strung her along for months. Allegedly, he threatened Judelan, telling

256
00:12:42.919 --> 00:12:45.320
her that if she didn't stay quiet, he would inform

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the brothers that she had heard their confession and then

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they would come after her. So I listened to a

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fair amount of his testimony, and I made the hard

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decision not to play any clips for you guys. But

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the whole trial is out there on YouTube. Just click around.

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It's on Court TV. But there's some people have edited

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some of the testimonies. So you can only watch like

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key points of it, but he clearly comes off as

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as slimy.

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That does not surprise me much at all. Now, the

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tape that he had of Eric confessing that was allowed

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00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:20.039
in the trial, right.

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Parts of it were, and so and it wasn't just Derek,

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it was Lyle and Eric.

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Oh that's right. So really their defense team they really

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needed to attack him and really tear his image down

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so that they could imply that these confessions were like

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that he kind of coerced.

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Them, or that he was heavily involved. Yeah, okay, the

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jury didn't have to like o'zell or even fully believe

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him because there were the tapes. The covert recorded confessions

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became the prosecution's most powerful evidence, but the defense was

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never there to argue who killed Jose and Kitty. They

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were there to argue why. And once those tapes were played,

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the defense shifted its focus, calling psychologists, relatives, friends, and

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other witches who testified not about one night in August,

283
00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:06.440
but about years of Menenda's family dysfunction that they had

284
00:14:06.440 --> 00:14:10.720
witnessed firsthand. On August sixteenth, about five weeks into the trial,

285
00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:14.039
the defense took over Their strategy centered on a concept

286
00:14:14.120 --> 00:14:18.399
called imperfect self defense. This defense doesn't mean that a

287
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:21.879
killing was justified. It means someone genuinely believed they were

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in immediate danger of being killed or seriously harmed, even

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00:14:25.720 --> 00:14:29.960
if that belief wasn't reasonable or supported by facts. Under

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the law, that belief doesn't excuse a homicide, but it

291
00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:36.399
can reduce it. That was the heart of the defense's argument,

292
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not that Lyell and Eric were legally justified, but that

293
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years of abuse and control had distorted how they perceived

294
00:14:42.919 --> 00:14:46.759
the threat, so when the confrontation happened, they genuinely believed

295
00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:50.120
their lives were in danger, even if they actually weren't.

296
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The defense wasn't trying for an acquittal, although that would

297
00:14:53.559 --> 00:14:56.320
be welcome, They knew it was very unlikely. They were

298
00:14:56.320 --> 00:15:01.639
hoping for involuntary manslaughter. Weisberg was not a fan of

299
00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:05.399
the direction Abramson was headed. In fact, he was frequently

300
00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:08.559
exasperated with her aggressive style. The fact that there was

301
00:15:08.600 --> 00:15:12.200
Mola's station doesn't constitute a legal defense, he said. When

302
00:15:12.200 --> 00:15:15.159
she wanted to introduce evidence of the pattern of abuse

303
00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:19.320
in both Kitty and Jose's families. Leslie Abramson was widely

304
00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:22.480
regarded as one of the most talented and formidable defense

305
00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:26.159
attorneys in the country, admired for her courtroom skilled and

306
00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:30.720
feared for her aggressiveness, even as her methods often drew controversy.

307
00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:35.120
Her combative approach and frequent objections led to repeated warnings

308
00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:38.759
in tense exchanges during the trial from the judge. Jill Lansing,

309
00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:43.360
who represented Lyle, was a contradiction measured, gentle and thoughtful

310
00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:47.080
in her approach. The judge at some points was accused

311
00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:49.960
of being misogynistic because he was actually really hard on

312
00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:54.440
Jill too interesting. The prosecution called some of Lyle's friends

313
00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:58.320
and former girlfriends, who described him as intense, controlling at times,

314
00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:02.440
but also fiercely protective of Eric. One girlfriend recalled Lyle

315
00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:04.840
telling her that his father was cruel and that he

316
00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:08.840
felt trapped under Jose's control. Others talked about Lyle's anger

317
00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:13.039
towards his parents not sudden or opportunistic, but long standing.

318
00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:18.320
Coaches and teachers were also called. One tennis coach, Charles Wadlington.

319
00:16:18.759 --> 00:16:22.000
Remember the boys had had over fifty tennis coaches, so

320
00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:25.480
Charles Wadlington said of Jose, he was what I consider

321
00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:28.360
the worst parent of the people that I had ever coached,

322
00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:31.960
and most of the high achieving students parents were demanding,

323
00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:34.440
but he took it a step further. He was the

324
00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:38.399
harshest person I ever met. He also mentioned that Kitty

325
00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:43.000
was unusually sarcastic and hostile, always withholding and stern with

326
00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:45.799
her sons. He couldn't recall ever seeing a smile on

327
00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:48.919
her face. The schedule Lyle and Eric were expected to

328
00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:52.639
maintain was brutal and untenable. When their coach was later

329
00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:55.639
asked why he continued working with them despite disagreeing with

330
00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:58.759
Jose's demands, he said he stayed because he cared deeply

331
00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:01.559
about the boys and found he was often the only

332
00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:02.559
friend they had.

333
00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:04.400
Oh, that was really sad.

334
00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:08.200
Coaches said Lyle wasn't allowed to socialize freely with other kids,

335
00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:12.039
and that his interactions were shaped by his father's expectations,

336
00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:15.880
reinforcing the picture of an upbringing that was tightly controlled.

337
00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:20.000
Lyle's sixth grade teacher testified that Jose once arrived very

338
00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:23.400
late after ten thirty PM to a parent teacher conference

339
00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:25.599
at the school, and when she tried to leave, he

340
00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:29.240
accosted her, demanding the conference that he was due. He

341
00:17:29.319 --> 00:17:31.920
told her, my son can do better, and you will

342
00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:32.960
make sure that he will.

343
00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:33.519
Oh boy.

344
00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:37.519
Another teacher called Kitty and Jose problem parents, although she

345
00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:40.240
found Kitty less unpleasant to deal with than her husband.

346
00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:42.000
This is why I would not want to be a teacher.

347
00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:45.039
Yeah, these people are so demanding of the Could you

348
00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:47.839
mention ten thirty at night and you're still expected to

349
00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:50.440
give a parent teacher conference? And was probably because he

350
00:17:50.599 --> 00:17:54.759
was really late. Lyle and Eric were described as outwardly successful,

351
00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:58.960
good students, talented athletes, but emotionally brittle. Eric in particular

352
00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:01.720
was remembered as anne anxious and fragile, prone to stomach

353
00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:05.799
pain and stress related illnesses. Several witnesses said it seemed

354
00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:08.839
like the pressure at home was constant, unrelenting, and far

355
00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:11.839
beyond what they saw in other families, and the stress

356
00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:15.920
may have caused Lyle's premature balding. Remember the two pays

357
00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:18.640
right as they made him wear. I did a little

358
00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:22.400
research about male pattern baldness. I was really curious why

359
00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:25.079
Lyle seemed to lose his hair but Eric still has

360
00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:27.039
a full head of hair, because I thought if your

361
00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:29.799
brother was bald, you would be just as likely to

362
00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:32.079
be bald. It's actually not the case. Really, you only

363
00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:35.279
share fifty percent of your DNA with brothers, and I

364
00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:37.559
mean it's more likely if your brother's bald that you'll

365
00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:37.960
be bald.

366
00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:39.200
But it's not that uncommon.

367
00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:42.559
Yeah, and Lyle's hair loss I thought could have been

368
00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:46.039
because of stress. But if you have stress related hair loss,

369
00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:48.880
it's not the same as male pattern baldness. And he

370
00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:51.480
did have, I guess started with a bald spot on

371
00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:53.880
the back of his head, where stress related hair loss

372
00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:59.640
tends to be more just hair loss, exactly thinning of

373
00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:03.559
the hair, and you would retain most of your hairline,

374
00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:06.440
and once the trigger is removed, your hair might grow back.

375
00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:08.920
What made a lot of these witnesses stand out was

376
00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:13.400
that these accounts weren't coming from hired experts or retrospective analysis.

377
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:16.319
They came from people who had heard these fears in

378
00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:20.200
real time years earlier, without knowing where the story would end.

379
00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:23.839
Their testimony didn't offer a clean narrative or easy answers,

380
00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:26.359
but it made one thing hard to ignore. The brothers

381
00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:28.839
fear of their parents did not begin the night they

382
00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:29.759
picked up their guns.

383
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:33.119
It's interesting you say that, because as I'm listening to this,

384
00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:37.599
it also helped to make me feel differently about the

385
00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:40.079
case too, because we discussed it in part two. But

386
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:42.640
for me, I really had the question of whether the

387
00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:46.279
brothers were using some of these allegations as an excuse,

388
00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:49.000
whether they were making some of them up after the fact.

389
00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:53.599
And hearing like all these people that testified about this happening,

390
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:56.279
it really does. It does make a difference.

391
00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:58.839
And it paints a picture that these kids weren't in

392
00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:01.440
the happiest of home. And you know, if a teacher

393
00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:04.680
is seeing it, and multiple teachers are seeing coaches they

394
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:07.319
had first hand accounts, So yeah, it does make it

395
00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:17.200
more real. We'll be back after a break. I try

396
00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:19.119
not to talk about the trials too much, but in

397
00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:21.720
this case, so much of the evidence came out at

398
00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:22.240
the trial.

399
00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:25.119
Yeah, it sounds like it. On September tenth, it was

400
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:28.240
Lyle's turn to testify and try to convince the jury

401
00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:31.400
that he and Eric were victims of sexual abuse. He

402
00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:34.559
was on the witness stand for nine days. Lyle, now

403
00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:37.640
twenty five, claimed that he killed his parents because he

404
00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:40.319
was sure they were planning to kill him and Eric.

405
00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:43.599
It was hard to understand him at times. Through his tears.

406
00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:46.480
He explained that his father held him to a higher

407
00:20:46.519 --> 00:20:50.119
standard than his brother because he believed he had more potential.

408
00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:55.240
Lyles's emotional, disturbing testimony gripped the jury and the whole courtroom.

409
00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:58.799
Many cried along with him. He had been sexually abused

410
00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:02.039
by his father from ages six to eight. It started

411
00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:06.200
as fondling and progressed to oral sex and beyond. Lyle

412
00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:09.160
said his mother was never nurturing, and even when he

413
00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:12.039
was very young, she told him she hated him and

414
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:14.720
that he ruined her life. When he was born, she

415
00:21:14.839 --> 00:21:18.799
insisted on bathing him, touching his genitals until age thirteen,

416
00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:22.240
She walked around the house shirtless, asking him if she

417
00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:25.720
looked good. The boys slept with Kitty when Jose was

418
00:21:25.720 --> 00:21:28.640
out of town, she made them touch her. They didn't

419
00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:32.119
realize it was wrong until they were older. Lyle suffered

420
00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:35.559
from nurysis until his teen years, and both parents would

421
00:21:35.559 --> 00:21:37.839
shame him for it and rub his face in the

422
00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:42.400
soiled sheets, refusing to change or wash them. Lyle admitted

423
00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:46.200
to inappropriately touching Eric when he was eight and Eric five.

424
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:50.200
From the witness stand, he whispered, I'm sorry to his brother.

425
00:21:50.839 --> 00:21:53.759
Lyle made it clear that Jose had always cautioned him

426
00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:56.720
not to divulge family secrets or he would kill them.

427
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.720
Jose would tell him what we'd do is like what

428
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:03.559
soldiers do before they go into battle, to become closer

429
00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:07.759
to become warriors. Most people in the courtroom were captivated

430
00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:11.400
by Lyle's testimony, but not the prosecutors, who compared it

431
00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:15.599
to a performance by Sir Lawrence Olivier during cross examination.

432
00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:19.640
The prosecutor was brutal, but Lyle was calm and controlled.

433
00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:23.160
That is just so disturbing hearing all of that. It's

434
00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:25.319
just really it's hard to hear.

435
00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:28.240
I wanted to play clips from the trial, but unless

436
00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:31.480
you're really seeing Lyle's face, I don't know if you

437
00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:33.960
can get a full picture. And he was emotional on

438
00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:36.240
the stand, and there were like a lot of pauses,

439
00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:38.599
so I wasn't sure if that would actually give any

440
00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:41.680
value to the listener. But I do encourage you to

441
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:44.319
go to YouTube and watch some of the trial. I

442
00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:47.240
believe that his testimony was very sincere, but I couldn't

443
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:49.880
help but remember the nine one one call when he

444
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:53.640
was hysterically crying. You know that seemed sincere to me too. Yeah,

445
00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:56.240
he was clearly lying on the nine to one one call.

446
00:22:56.319 --> 00:22:58.160
But he was on the stand for days and days

447
00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:01.359
and gave story after story of you know, abuse of

448
00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:06.920
like some of it was not as serious as others.

449
00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:09.039
But still, yeah, it's heartbreaking, Yeah, heartbreaking. I'm a little

450
00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:12.400
surprised that the prosecution was kind of brutal with him.

451
00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:15.400
That's a difficult line to walk as a prosecutor. I

452
00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:17.559
know they have to try to, you know, basically paint

453
00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:20.079
him as a liar, but boy, after that kind of

454
00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:22.759
emotional testimony, to get up there and then, you know,

455
00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:25.559
be mean to someone on the stand like that.

456
00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:27.680
There's something they do at the end of the trial

457
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:30.400
that a lot of people were unhappy with. We'll get

458
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:31.279
there in a few minutes.

459
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:35.839
Eric now twenty two, was up next. He also testified

460
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:39.839
for several days. His close relationship with Leslie Abramson was

461
00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:42.799
on display for all to see. Eric said that he

462
00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:46.000
had been sexually abused by his father since age six.

463
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:49.240
He had names for the four methods of sexual abuse.

464
00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:54.200
His father subjected him to knees, nice sex, rough sex,

465
00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:58.440
and just sex. He explained that sometimes Jose stuck him

466
00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:02.400
in the buttocks with pins and tacks. Meanwhile, the brothers

467
00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:05.759
were picked apart in the media. The question remained, was

468
00:24:05.799 --> 00:24:09.400
their story of abuse believable or a convenient excuse?

469
00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:12.160
The media called this the abuse excuse.

470
00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:16.000
A cousin testified that when they were ten and twelve,

471
00:24:16.279 --> 00:24:19.640
Eric asked him if his father gave him massages. The

472
00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:23.400
cousin also remembered seeing an ominous jar of vassilene in

473
00:24:23.559 --> 00:24:28.079
Eric's bedroom. Donovan Goodrow was recalled by the defense, although

474
00:24:28.119 --> 00:24:30.720
the tape wasn't played in court. A transcript of his

475
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:34.119
interview with Robert Rand was passed out to jurors, but

476
00:24:34.279 --> 00:24:37.680
he claimed that he didn't remember Lyle ever revealing his

477
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:41.519
history of sexual abuse to him. Several psychologists who were

478
00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:44.640
experts in the field of childhood trauma who had interviewed

479
00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:47.839
the brothers testified that they found them to be credible.

480
00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:51.000
Leslie Abramson chose to play the tape of Lyle and

481
00:24:51.160 --> 00:24:55.119
Eric with Jerome Ozell. The jury heard the secret recordings

482
00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:58.400
that Ozell had made in his office, conversations in which

483
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:01.680
Lyle and Eric discussed the killings in their own voices,

484
00:25:02.119 --> 00:25:07.400
but the tapes also captured Ozeal himself directing, interrupting, reframing,

485
00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:11.319
and steering the sessions to the defense, they sounded less

486
00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:15.799
like clean confessions and more like guided conversations, shaped by

487
00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:19.359
a man who was frightened, compromised, and controlling the narrative

488
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:23.279
as much as recording it. The testimony of Judelan Smith

489
00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:27.079
was long anticipated. She clearly had an axe to grind

490
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:30.200
and wanted to prove what a snake Jerry Ozell was

491
00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:33.599
after he tried to paint her as an unhinged, crystal

492
00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:38.960
loving fruitcake obsessed with him. Smith also disputed Ozell's insistence

493
00:25:39.039 --> 00:25:42.559
that he had never been her therapist. She testified that

494
00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:46.440
he had acted as her therapist, something he had denied emphatically,

495
00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:50.440
as such a relationship would have crossed serious ethical lines.

496
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:55.599
She accused him of hypnotizing and brainwashing her. Unbeknownst to Ozeal,

497
00:25:56.039 --> 00:26:00.519
Judelan had been taping their conversations. In one interesting exchange,

498
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:05.119
he said, there's fourteen million dollars involved. She replied, so

499
00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:09.319
figure it out. Ozell said so, the implication there being

500
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:12.680
that ozel was somehow after as much of that fourteen

501
00:26:12.759 --> 00:26:13.960
million dollars as he could.

502
00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:16.680
I think so. Remember he went to the funeral and

503
00:26:16.759 --> 00:26:20.680
he billed them for it, and he was yeah, not

504
00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:21.279
a good guy.

505
00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:25.079
No. When the prosecutor accused Judelan of being in love

506
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:28.720
with Ozell and wanting to marry him, she disagreed. Doctor

507
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:33.359
Ozell wanted to marry me, not me him. The prosecutor retorted,

508
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:36.039
but you wanted to have children and you indicated to

509
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:39.960
the police. Judelan interrupted, I did not want children that

510
00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:43.839
looked like doctor Ozel. The courtroom erupted in a long,

511
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:48.440
much needed laugh. On Friday, December third, nineteen ninety three,

512
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:51.559
at the end of the day, the defense rested. Over

513
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:54.279
the eighty five day trial, there had been one hundred

514
00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:58.000
and one witnesses and four hundred and five exhibits. Everyone

515
00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:02.839
was exhausted. In her multi day closing argument, Leslie argued

516
00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:06.400
that Eric actually didn't kill anyone. Lyle had delivered the

517
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:08.640
fatal shots to both Kitty and Jose.

518
00:27:09.079 --> 00:27:09.799
Do you remember that.

519
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:10.920
I did not.

520
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:14.920
Remember that the first episode. But the gun was empty

521
00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:17.920
and Kitty was still kind of she was still alive,

522
00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:21.920
and Lyle had to run out ammunition and he delivered

523
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:24.799
the fatal blow. Yeah. And also when we say that

524
00:27:24.880 --> 00:27:28.240
the trial was eighty five days, it wasn't eighty five

525
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:31.200
calendar days. It was you know, working days.

526
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:34.519
Yeah, that is a long time. It's really interesting the

527
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:38.039
fact that they both had different juries. So it's interesting

528
00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:40.400
that Leslie Abramson is in a way setting up a

529
00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:43.200
bit of a different defense for Eric than Lyle. So

530
00:27:43.240 --> 00:27:45.759
it's yeah, in some ways kind of pointing fingers at

531
00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:46.480
his brother.

532
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:49.160
But they did work together for the most part.

533
00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:53.920
Yeah. Prosecutor Lester Kuriama said, if Eric indeed engaged in

534
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:58.279
consensual homosexual activities with other men, that would account for

535
00:27:58.359 --> 00:28:01.160
him being able to describe for you the accounts he

536
00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:03.960
described to you about sexual encounters with his father.

537
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:07.319
I haven't talked about Eric's sexuality up until this point

538
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:10.400
because I don't think it matters. Some people thought that

539
00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:13.359
he was gay, and when he was with his friend

540
00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:16.839
Craig Signorelli and they used to take drives along the coast,

541
00:28:17.799 --> 00:28:19.680
some people thought that, you know, they were having a

542
00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:23.160
sexual relationship, right, I don't think that's anyone's business. At

543
00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:26.519
one point, Kitty even thought he was gay and demanded

544
00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:29.799
that he get a girlfriend within the next six months.

545
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:32.759
So that might have actually increased the tension in the

546
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:33.960
household if nothing else.

547
00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:36.759
Well, he did get a girlfriend, and Eric has said

548
00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:40.319
that he's not gay. But the fact that this prosecutor

549
00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:43.559
said that was just gross, kind of outrageous. Yeah, and

550
00:28:43.640 --> 00:28:47.319
people were quite upset about it, understandably, So, yeah, it

551
00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:49.480
was a disgusting comment to make. Well, I think it's

552
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:53.640
also implying that if you're gay, you can't be sexually abused,

553
00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:59.279
right and really, so, remember there's two juries. Lyle's Jerry

554
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:03.119
had a head startup deliberations, while Leslie gave her closing arguments,

555
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:06.319
But the jury was very divided from the beginning. Both

556
00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:10.640
jurys had five potential verdicts, not guilty, first degree murder,

557
00:29:10.759 --> 00:29:16.440
second degree murder, voluntary manslaughter, and involuntary manslaughter. The jury

558
00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:21.039
spent an unusually long time deliberating behind closed doors. Weeks

559
00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:25.200
passed without a verdict. A strong six point seven magnitude

560
00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:30.720
earthquake rocked southern California on January seventeenth, causing major damage

561
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:34.039
to the area and killing sixty people. I was just

562
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:36.480
curious because we hear, you know that those numbers all

563
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:40.039
the time, and a seven point zero is considered a

564
00:29:40.119 --> 00:29:44.000
major earthquake, So six point seven is still, you know,

565
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:47.240
a very very strong I know, I don't remember that happening.

566
00:29:47.319 --> 00:29:49.960
That's really sad. So the jury paused for a week

567
00:29:50.039 --> 00:29:52.599
to deal with the aftermath of this earthquake. I think

568
00:29:52.599 --> 00:29:55.240
there was damage even to the courthouse and the jail.

569
00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:59.759
The Lyles jury deliberated for twenty five days, while a

570
00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:04.400
jury deliberated for nineteen days before both reported that they

571
00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:09.359
were hopelessly deadlocks. Eric's jury was divided along gender lines.

572
00:30:09.880 --> 00:30:12.680
The six men voted for murder and the six women

573
00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:13.839
for manslaughter.

574
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:16.920
Well, it's really interesting because when you first talked about

575
00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:19.359
the makeup of the jury, my initial thought was, I

576
00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:22.039
bet the defense wanted to have as many women on

577
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:23.119
the jury as possible.

578
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:25.480
And why do you think that men would be more

579
00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:27.240
likely to vote for murder?

580
00:30:27.319 --> 00:30:29.400
I know it sounds a little stereotypical, but I just

581
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:34.359
think women are generally more empathetic, and especially when it

582
00:30:34.359 --> 00:30:37.799
comes to situations where abuse is involved, I think there's

583
00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:41.559
a natural tendency to be a little more understanding.

584
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:44.599
Well, I think that it's really sad that men are

585
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:47.759
more likely to doubt that men other men can be

586
00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:51.240
victims of Section Yeah, it is very sad. Judge Stanley

587
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:55.839
Weisberg declared mistrials for both Eric and Lyle on January

588
00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:57.440
twenty eighth, nineteen ninety four.

589
00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:01.079
Also really interesting that they had two separate juries, neither jury,

590
00:31:01.160 --> 00:31:03.240
and they weren't talking to each other, and neither of

591
00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:04.960
them could come to the conclusion.

592
00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:09.160
In June nineteen ninety four, after his infamous bronco chase

593
00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:12.759
on live TV, OJ Simpson was arrested for the murder

594
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:15.640
of his ex wife, Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend

595
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:18.799
Ron Goldman. He was taken to the La County Jail

596
00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:22.279
and placed in the cell next to Eric Menendez. They

597
00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:26.759
weren't strangers. Years earlier, Simpson had visited the Menendez home

598
00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:29.440
and thrown a football around with the boys after Jose

599
00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:33.119
hired him as a spokesman for Hurtz. Remember, Jose used.

600
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:34.559
To riks, that's really wild.

601
00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:37.759
Eric tried to coach OJ on how to be a prisoner,

602
00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:40.240
how to work the system, how to deal with the guards.

603
00:31:40.279 --> 00:31:43.480
But the reality was that Simpson was treated like royalty.

604
00:31:43.880 --> 00:31:46.680
His cell door remained open, he was allowed a phone,

605
00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:49.839
he was given special food. Guards stopped by all day

606
00:31:49.880 --> 00:31:53.000
to ask him for his autograph. Lyle too became friendly

607
00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:57.119
with OJ. Lyle was being kept in a separate I'm

608
00:31:57.119 --> 00:31:59.440
not sure it was a building or a separate area.

609
00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:03.799
Yle advised OJ to accept a plea deal, but OJ

610
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:06.119
did not want to damage his good guy image with

611
00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:06.759
the public.

612
00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:09.839
But OJ is really happy. He did not listen to Lyle.

613
00:32:10.359 --> 00:32:13.240
So when journalist Robert Rand asked if Lyle thought that

614
00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:16.640
OJ was guilty, he said absolutely. He knew Eric and

615
00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:18.920
I and he trusted us. So I think Eric is

616
00:32:18.920 --> 00:32:22.920
implying that OJ admitted to killing Nicole Brown, Simpson and

617
00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:23.759
Ron Goldwy Well.

618
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:26.079
He kind of admitted to almost everybody in that book,

619
00:32:26.119 --> 00:32:28.400
he wrote, So yeah, it wouldn't be at all surprised.

620
00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:31.799
In June nineteen ninety, Lyle began receiving letters from a

621
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:36.839
woman named Norma Novelli, a fifty somethingter British expatriate. She

622
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:39.440
came to see him in jail several times a week,

623
00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:42.400
and the pair also talked many nights on the phone

624
00:32:42.440 --> 00:32:45.720
for months. It was not a romantic relationship on Lyle's part,

625
00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:50.400
but Norma seemed fixated on him. However, unbeknownst to Lyle,

626
00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:54.839
she recorded their conversations. Later, she released a book, The

627
00:32:54.920 --> 00:32:59.680
Private Diary of Lyle Menandez, with transcripts of their calls.

628
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:00.759
That's really low.

629
00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:03.960
Yeah, Despite the way the tapes were later portrayed in

630
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:07.640
the media. There weren't really any bombshells or confessions or

631
00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:11.960
hidden revelations about the murders. What emerged most clearly was

632
00:33:12.039 --> 00:33:16.880
Lyle himself alternately guarded and emotional and often arrogant, especially

633
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:19.720
in the confidence he expressed about his ability to win

634
00:33:19.799 --> 00:33:22.839
over a jury. I could only find the audio version

635
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:25.720
of this book, and it was really hard to understand,

636
00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:28.880
so I didn't listen to most of it. But Lyle

637
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:32.759
was very confident about the testimony that he delivered, and

638
00:33:32.799 --> 00:33:34.880
I watched a fair amount of it, and he was

639
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:38.519
very convincing. If I had to compare Lyle's testimony to

640
00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:42.720
Eric's testimony, I think Lyle definitely delivered a better story

641
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:45.200
to the jury, and he did it in a really

642
00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:48.079
convincing way, where Eric, I think, was just so nervous.

643
00:33:48.119 --> 00:33:50.640
He kind of fell apart under the pressure a little

644
00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:55.079
more so. In these tapes. To Norma, he was like saying, well,

645
00:33:55.119 --> 00:33:57.160
you know, I really nailed it with the jury, and

646
00:33:57.319 --> 00:33:58.119
he really did well.

647
00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:00.200
That almost makes it sound like he was acting though,

648
00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:02.200
or that he was kind of admitting to the right

649
00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:03.680
that he was acting a little bit.

650
00:34:05.079 --> 00:34:07.559
It kind of sounds that way, but in the actuality,

651
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:09.400
I think he was just saying no, I did a

652
00:34:09.400 --> 00:34:12.760
good job. The prosecutor tried but failed to have these

653
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:15.760
tapes admitted in the second trial as evidence, as they

654
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:19.679
were recorded without his permission. So interest in the Menenda's

655
00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:22.480
brothers waned before the start of the second trial. In

656
00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:26.000
August nineteen ninety five, Court TV chose not to carry

657
00:34:26.039 --> 00:34:29.039
the trial live. They'd moved on to other high profile

658
00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:33.280
trials such as Heidi Flice, the Hollywood Madam, and OJ Simpson.

659
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:36.400
Lyell and Eric were out of money. Lyle would be

660
00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:41.119
represented by a public defender, Charles Gessler. Leslie Abramson agreed

661
00:34:41.159 --> 00:34:43.639
to stay on as Eric's attorney for the public defender

662
00:34:43.719 --> 00:34:46.039
rate offered by the state one hundred and twenty five

663
00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:47.320
thousand dollars annually.

664
00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:50.679
So did they inherit the money if from their parents.

665
00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:54.039
Or they they didn't. I'm guessing that the money was

666
00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:57.079
probably pre right until after the trial.

667
00:34:57.159 --> 00:34:58.320
Yeah, I guess that makes sense.

668
00:34:58.519 --> 00:35:00.320
I'm going to make this a lot briefer than I

669
00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:03.760
did during the first trial. Judge Weisberg again presided over

670
00:35:03.800 --> 00:35:06.480
the trial. The brothers were tried together, but this time

671
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:09.559
only one jury would hear the case. Lyle twenty seven

672
00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:12.800
and Eric twenty four had shed their sweaters for more

673
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:16.400
mature attire for this trial. They now arrived in court

674
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:18.880
in shirts and ties. I don't think I talked about that,

675
00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:21.280
but during the first trial they were both they look

676
00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:24.320
very preppy every day, and I think that was Leslie's

677
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:27.000
idea to try to make them look younger and I.

678
00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:29.239
Surprising though, kind of seems like it would make them

679
00:35:29.239 --> 00:35:31.480
look like, you know, sort of entitled.

680
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:33.519
Right, And I think that's exactly what it did. So

681
00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:35.960
I think they probably should have just worn suitentized in

682
00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:39.519
the first trial too. People described the trials as night

683
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:43.280
and day. Prosecutors insisted that Lyle and Eric's claims of

684
00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:47.519
child sexual abuse were fabrications, and argued that the defense

685
00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:50.800
had not laid a sufficient legal foundation to use those

686
00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:55.719
allegations to support a self defense theory. The judge ultimately agreed,

687
00:35:55.920 --> 00:35:58.920
ruling that much of the abuse related testimony and expert

688
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:02.239
evidence present resented in the first trial would be limited

689
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:06.159
or excluded. As a result, large portions of the brother's

690
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:10.400
defense were stripped away in the second trial, dramatically narrowing

691
00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:13.159
what the jury was allowed to hear and weakening the

692
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:17.079
defense's overall case. Another major change in the second trial

693
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:20.440
was the exclusion of doctor Jeromo Wasiel's testimony, which had

694
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:22.519
played a central role in the first trial.

695
00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:24.840
That's a really big blow to the defense because that

696
00:36:24.920 --> 00:36:27.360
was the old foundation of their exactly.

697
00:36:27.639 --> 00:36:30.239
Wow, and you have to wonder what the judge's intention

698
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:31.000
is here, right.

699
00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:31.639
Yeah.

700
00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:34.639
The trial began in late September nineteen ninety five. The

701
00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:38.119
jury was composed of seven men and five women, and

702
00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:40.639
I'm because of what happened during the first trial, I'm

703
00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:43.440
surprised that they let this fly that there were more

704
00:36:43.480 --> 00:36:46.559
men than women. Just a few days into the trial,

705
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:50.800
a jury acquitted oj Simpson of killing Nicole Brown Simpson

706
00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:54.119
and Ron Goldman. Leslie felt this was a bad sign

707
00:36:54.199 --> 00:36:57.719
for the Menendez brothers. The DA would be out for blood.

708
00:36:57.800 --> 00:37:02.239
Embarrassed by this loss. Although Oziel didn't testify, some of

709
00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:05.760
the confession tape was played. Lyle was heard saying it

710
00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:09.559
took quote courage beyond belief to murder Kitty and Jose

711
00:37:09.800 --> 00:37:11.880
and quote there was no way I was going to

712
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:16.599
kill my parents without Eric's consent. Amir Brian as Laminia,

713
00:37:16.599 --> 00:37:19.239
a high school friend, of Eric's became a key figure

714
00:37:19.239 --> 00:37:22.559
in the prosecution's efforts to undermine the defense narrative of

715
00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:27.119
self defense. Amir's brother, Reza Islaminia, had been a member

716
00:37:27.199 --> 00:37:30.079
of the infamous Billionaire Boys Club and was convicted for

717
00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:34.480
the nineteen eighty murder of their father. Prosecutors introduced a

718
00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:38.320
jail house letter that Lyle wrote to Brian or Emir

719
00:37:38.599 --> 00:37:42.239
in July nineteen ninety one, in which Lyle allegedly outlined

720
00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:46.440
exactly how Islaminia should testify, specifically that the brothers had

721
00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:50.079
asked him for a handgun for protection from their parents

722
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:53.679
in the days before the killings. As Laminia said later

723
00:37:53.840 --> 00:37:57.400
that after receiving the letter, Lyle called him and said,

724
00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:01.119
I've changed my mind. You should not test with that story,

725
00:38:01.639 --> 00:38:04.199
as the media's account was used by the prosecution to

726
00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:07.760
argue that the brothers were capable of manufacturing testimony to

727
00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:08.960
support their defense.

728
00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:10.559
Yeah, that's not a good look.

729
00:38:10.840 --> 00:38:13.519
The prosecution built their case over seven weeks and called

730
00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:17.159
thirty witnesses. When the defense took over, Eric testified, but

731
00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:20.199
Lyle did not, and you can understand why, because there's

732
00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:24.280
all this new information. On January thirty, first, the defense

733
00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:27.519
rested after calling twenty five witnesses, less than half of

734
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:30.280
what they'd called during the first trial. It took the

735
00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:33.719
jury four days to reach their verdict. On March twenty first,

736
00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:36.840
nineteen ninety six, Lyle and Eric Menendez were found guilty

737
00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:40.159
of first degree murder, conspiracy to commit murder, as well

738
00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:44.400
as two special circumstances lying in wait and multiple murders.

739
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:47.840
The same jury decided their penalty. There were two options,

740
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:51.360
only two options, this time, life without parole or death.

741
00:38:51.800 --> 00:38:55.960
More testimony from family members and expert witnesses followed. Leslie

742
00:38:55.960 --> 00:39:00.000
Abramson came under fire during the penalty phase when psychiatrists

743
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:03.679
doctor William Vickery, who had treated Eric for five years

744
00:39:03.719 --> 00:39:06.719
over the course of eighty eight sessions, took the stand.

745
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:10.199
It emerged that the prosecution had a different version of

746
00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:14.400
his notes than the defense prosecutors had been given the

747
00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:19.400
earlier complete set. Abramson had asked doctor Vickery to delete

748
00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:23.559
six sections totaling twenty four pages from his records, which

749
00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:25.159
she believed were prejudicial.

750
00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:26.559
Oh boy, that's not good.

751
00:39:26.800 --> 00:39:31.639
No. This revelation stunned the courtroom. Altering medical notes violated

752
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:35.760
professional ethics and raised serious concerns about handling of evidence.

753
00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:39.320
Abramson insisted that she had been trying to protect her client,

754
00:39:39.400 --> 00:39:42.320
but the damage was done. She was later investigated by

755
00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:45.559
the California State bar According to The New York Times,

756
00:39:45.559 --> 00:39:50.079
disciplinary charges were ultimately not pursued due to insufficient evidence.

757
00:39:50.360 --> 00:39:54.360
The controversy did, however, have real consequences. Leslie was barred

758
00:39:54.360 --> 00:39:58.280
from delivering the closing argument in the case. So the

759
00:39:58.360 --> 00:40:01.119
jury deliberated, and we're talking about the p penalty phase here.

760
00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:04.320
They deliberated for three days before returning with their decision.

761
00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:08.280
Life in prison without the possibility of parole for both

762
00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:12.519
of the brothers. Eric in particular, was devastated. He reportedly

763
00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:15.000
couldn't get out of bed for days after the sentence

764
00:40:15.079 --> 00:40:17.760
was read and the years that followed, some jurors would

765
00:40:17.800 --> 00:40:20.079
say that if they had been allowed to hear more

766
00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:23.199
of the evidence about the long term pattern of abuse

767
00:40:23.239 --> 00:40:26.239
inside the Menendez home, that they might not have convicted

768
00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:29.679
the brothers a first degree murder. After the sentencing, the

769
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:33.480
media waited for Leslie for her final thoughts. She said,

770
00:40:33.599 --> 00:40:35.760
it will never be over for me because I will

771
00:40:35.840 --> 00:40:39.079
never sever my ties to Eric Menendez or Lyle Menendez.

772
00:40:39.320 --> 00:40:42.920
Or their family. We are a large extended family. Now

773
00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:45.960
the legal part is over, but the human part continues.

774
00:40:46.440 --> 00:40:49.840
That's it, guys, Bye bye farewell. A lot of people

775
00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:52.880
have talked about the relationship between Leslie and especially Eric.

776
00:40:53.239 --> 00:40:57.480
It was very maternal relationship, and you know, she tried

777
00:40:57.519 --> 00:40:59.960
her best, and I think it became almost too personal

778
00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:02.199
for her. I think she was a little too close

779
00:41:02.239 --> 00:41:02.519
to it.

780
00:41:02.599 --> 00:41:04.320
Well, I think, yeah, as a lawyer, you really have

781
00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:08.079
to try to maintain some professional separation. I would think.

782
00:41:08.360 --> 00:41:10.199
I think she really cared for them and she wanted

783
00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:13.239
them to be freed, and it took like a huge

784
00:41:13.239 --> 00:41:17.079
emotional impact on her life. Yeah, we'll be back after

785
00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:17.599
a break.

786
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:28.079
Dominic Dunn was one of the most visible courtroom figures

787
00:41:28.119 --> 00:41:31.719
of the era, a society writer turned true crime journalist

788
00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:35.519
whose work for Vanity Fair was shaped by personal tragedy,

789
00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:39.480
the murder of his daughter, actress Dominique Dunn in nineteen

790
00:41:39.559 --> 00:41:43.599
eighty two. When Vanity Fair first put long circulating rumors

791
00:41:43.639 --> 00:41:47.400
of sexual abuse into print, the brothers reacted with outrage,

792
00:41:47.719 --> 00:41:52.199
Though those allegations would later form the core of their defense. Dunn, however,

793
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:57.039
remained openly skeptical, covering the Menendez trial in nineteen ninety three.

794
00:41:57.119 --> 00:42:00.960
He largely viewed the brothers as entitled and Greek, guilty

795
00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:04.519
of calculated murder rather than driven by trauma. Though he

796
00:42:04.599 --> 00:42:08.760
acknowledged moments of doubt as testimony unfolded, he never fully

797
00:42:08.840 --> 00:42:12.519
accepted the abuse narrative, and his reporting helped frame the

798
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:16.079
case as both a murder trial and a cultural spectacle,

799
00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:20.760
with his voice among the most influential in shaping public opinion. So,

800
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:23.039
as we've talked about, I didn't really know a lot

801
00:42:23.079 --> 00:42:26.880
about this case, but in my consciousness, like obviously I

802
00:42:26.920 --> 00:42:29.920
heard about it when it was going on. That was

803
00:42:29.960 --> 00:42:33.840
definitely my impression of it. Basically what Dominic Dunne was

804
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:37.719
kind of getting across there that these were two spoiled, greedy,

805
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:39.559
rich kids who were you know.

806
00:42:39.559 --> 00:42:42.119
Well, I mention him because he did kind of lead

807
00:42:42.199 --> 00:42:45.880
the media narrative. He reported a lot in Vanity Fair

808
00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:48.760
about this article. I also mentioned him because I'm thinking

809
00:42:48.800 --> 00:42:52.440
about doing his daughter's case. He was also portrayed in

810
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:53.519
the movie Monsters.

811
00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:57.880
The Menendez case didn't just consume the brothers. It consumed

812
00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:03.599
everyone around them, family members, friends, investigators, lawyers, witnesses for

813
00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:07.360
years their lives hovered in a kind of suspended animation

814
00:43:07.559 --> 00:43:11.880
between Kitty and Jose's murders and the final sentencing, lives

815
00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:16.280
were put on hold. Relationships frayed. Detective Zolar, the lead

816
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:19.239
detective in the case, later said the case cost him

817
00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:22.639
his marriage and pushed a wedge between him and his children.

818
00:43:23.119 --> 00:43:26.280
And he wasn't alone. This wasn't a story that stayed

819
00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:30.440
neatly inside a courtroom. It reshaped the lives of everyone involved.

820
00:43:30.760 --> 00:43:34.599
Doctor Jeromeo Zial's life was never the same. His conduct

821
00:43:34.679 --> 00:43:39.119
was scrutinized in open court, his professional reputation badly damaged,

822
00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:42.559
and in the years that followed, he surrendered his California

823
00:43:42.599 --> 00:43:47.039
psychology license, effectively ending his career as a practicing therapist.

824
00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:51.360
Leslie Abramson maintained a lower profile after the case, other

825
00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:54.800
than briefly representing Phil Specter in two thousand and four.

826
00:43:55.239 --> 00:43:58.000
So I mentioned this because you know, cases like this,

827
00:43:58.039 --> 00:44:03.159
they're all consuming, not just for the defendants but everyone involved. Yeah,

828
00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:05.159
it takes you know, it took years and years for

829
00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:06.519
this to be resolved.

830
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:11.360
Right. In April twenty eighteen, Marta Cano invited journalist Robert

831
00:44:11.440 --> 00:44:14.960
rand to go through her son's papers rand unearthed the

832
00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:18.800
letter written by Eric to Andy in December nineteen eighty eight,

833
00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:22.960
nine months before the murders. Sadly, Andy passed away in

834
00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:26.599
two thousand and three from an accidental overdose of sleeping pills.

835
00:44:26.960 --> 00:44:29.760
He was haunted by the murders and struggled for years

836
00:44:29.800 --> 00:44:32.880
to sleep at night. Marta said, I have no doubt

837
00:44:32.920 --> 00:44:35.800
in my mind that Andy is dead because of the murders.

838
00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:39.159
In the letter, Eric describes the abuse he has suffered

839
00:44:39.199 --> 00:44:41.880
from Jose. The letter is a little long, but it

840
00:44:41.960 --> 00:44:44.679
reveals who Eric was as a seventeen year old and

841
00:44:44.719 --> 00:44:46.079
what he may have been going through.

842
00:44:46.519 --> 00:44:50.719
So Marta is Jose's sister and Andy is her son,

843
00:44:51.079 --> 00:44:51.639
Eric's cousin.

844
00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:55.320
Here's the letter. Hello, Andy, how are you doing? I

845
00:44:55.360 --> 00:44:57.719
hope better than I am. It's been a long time

846
00:44:57.760 --> 00:45:00.440
since we've been in touch. Too long. I wish we

847
00:45:00.440 --> 00:45:03.440
could have seen each other during Thanksgiving. We almost did.

848
00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:05.840
We were all set to go and then my parents

849
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:08.719
decided not to at the last minute. Mom said the

850
00:45:08.719 --> 00:45:12.280
flights are too expensive. She said we could wait until Christmas,

851
00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:15.400
but now they've decided I'm playing the Fiesta Bowl and

852
00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:17.199
that it's not worth it to fly out for a

853
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:19.800
few days. I was all excited to see you in

854
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:22.360
some high school buddies. But I'll have to wait a little.

855
00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:25.159
I guess Mom and Dad have a company party here,

856
00:45:25.239 --> 00:45:28.119
and Dad hired people to decorate the whole house and

857
00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:31.039
bought a huge tree they brought down from Santa Barbara.

858
00:45:31.559 --> 00:45:34.239
Actually they had to bring three because Mom didn't like

859
00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:37.400
the way the first few looked. They were pissed. They

860
00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:40.679
also decorated the tree. Where's the Christmas spirit in that?

861
00:45:41.320 --> 00:45:43.840
I remember when Lyle and I used to decorate it.

862
00:45:43.960 --> 00:45:46.639
Times change, huh. At least I got to put up

863
00:45:46.639 --> 00:45:49.480
my own stocking and one for Rudy and Velvet, who

864
00:45:49.480 --> 00:45:49.920
are fine.

865
00:45:49.960 --> 00:45:52.800
By the way, Mom guessing that's the dog and the cat.

866
00:45:53.400 --> 00:45:56.360
That was my guess too. Mom isn't doing too good.

867
00:45:56.599 --> 00:46:00.320
It's like she's here physically, but mentally she's just like gone,

868
00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:03.039
if you know what I mean. She freaks out over nothing.

869
00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:05.400
I feel bad for her. I don't know why she

870
00:46:05.480 --> 00:46:08.119
puts up with Dad's shit. At times, I wish I

871
00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:11.719
could talk to her about things, you know, someday, especially

872
00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:14.039
Dad and I. But the way she worships him and

873
00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:16.800
tells him everything, I'm so afraid that she'll tell him

874
00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:20.000
whatever I say. I just can't risk it. Lyle got

875
00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:22.199
into a huge fight with her over why we couldn't

876
00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:24.760
spend Christmas with the rest of the family, and Mom

877
00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:27.039
freaked out and said if he wanted to go, he

878
00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:29.599
could go alone. I just don't know why she wants

879
00:46:29.639 --> 00:46:32.360
to hurt him like that. Lyle wanted to stay, but

880
00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:35.800
Dad wouldn't let him. Now I'm here all alone. I've

881
00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:38.920
been trying to avoid Dad. It's still happening, Andy, but

882
00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:41.960
it's worse for me now. I can't explain it. He

883
00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:44.239
is so overweight that I can't stand to see him.

884
00:46:44.679 --> 00:46:46.760
I never know when it's going to happen, and it's

885
00:46:46.840 --> 00:46:49.920
driving me crazy. Every night I stay up thinking he

886
00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:52.000
might come in. I need to put it out of

887
00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:54.639
my mind. I know what you said before, but I'm

888
00:46:54.679 --> 00:46:58.360
afraid you just don't know Dad like I do. He's crazy.

889
00:46:58.719 --> 00:47:02.320
He warned me a hundred times about telling anyone, especially Lyle.

890
00:47:02.679 --> 00:47:05.559
Am I a serious wimpus. I don't know if I'll

891
00:47:05.559 --> 00:47:08.320
make it through this. I can handle it. Andy. I

892
00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:11.360
need to stop thinking about it anyway. I hope you're

893
00:47:11.400 --> 00:47:15.239
doing good. How's your new girlfriend, Allison? She sounds pretty great.

894
00:47:15.559 --> 00:47:17.480
When do I get to meet her? I can see

895
00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:19.880
why you don't want to leave Puerto Rico. I hear

896
00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:22.719
you're playing a lot of soccer. That's great. I love

897
00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:25.800
soccer too bad. I had to quit. How many tap

898
00:47:25.880 --> 00:47:28.360
ups can you do? I'm glad to see that school

899
00:47:28.440 --> 00:47:31.159
is easy for you. Sounds a little too easy, though,

900
00:47:31.320 --> 00:47:34.960
are you learning? Next year is the important year? Eleventh

901
00:47:34.960 --> 00:47:38.280
grade transcripts are what colleges look at. I'm doing okay

902
00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:41.079
so far with school. My tennis gets in the way some,

903
00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:44.119
but next year is an important year. I think if

904
00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:46.440
I do really well in tennis, mom and Dad will

905
00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:48.679
ease up some, just in time for me to start

906
00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:52.559
college at Brown or Berkeley. Anyway, I'm playing great. We

907
00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:55.480
really like our new coach Mark. He beat Lyle six

908
00:47:55.519 --> 00:47:57.840
to zero the first time they played. It was so

909
00:47:57.960 --> 00:48:01.519
bad Lyle even had to laugh. Well, I'm going to go, buddy,

910
00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:04.679
it's getting late and I don't feel well. Keep in touch,

911
00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:07.960
Hopefully I'll see you soon. Until then, God bless you

912
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:11.159
and Merry Christmas. I miss you, Love E.

913
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:14.159
So what's your impression of Eric after reading this letter?

914
00:48:14.599 --> 00:48:15.599
He was seventeen?

915
00:48:16.039 --> 00:48:19.960
Really heartbreaking? Just you can just feel like, especially when

916
00:48:19.960 --> 00:48:21.800
he's talking about I don't know when my dad is

917
00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:24.840
going to come in here, and then also talking about like, oh,

918
00:48:24.880 --> 00:48:26.599
if I do good in tennis, you know, maybe they'll

919
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:29.039
ease up on me, and it just it really is

920
00:48:29.480 --> 00:48:31.000
makes me really sad to hear that.

921
00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:33.079
So when the letter was found, if they were like,

922
00:48:33.159 --> 00:48:36.840
this is new evidence, is evidence that Eric was being abused.

923
00:48:36.960 --> 00:48:40.960
Right District Attorney Nathan Hawkman, who took office in December

924
00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:44.800
twenty twenty four, called the letter not credible evidence because

925
00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:48.400
it can't be corroborated by Andy Cano. It's not timely

926
00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:51.320
because it was not presented at time of trial. The

927
00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:55.960
previous DA George Gascone, who lost his reelection bid to Hawkman,

928
00:48:56.320 --> 00:48:59.920
recommended the brothers be re sentenced to fifty years to life,

929
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:02.079
which would make them eligible for parole.

930
00:49:02.639 --> 00:49:06.000
For years, journalist Robert rand suspected there was a deeper

931
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:10.199
connection between Jose Menendez and Menudo Anuda. Remember when we

932
00:49:10.239 --> 00:49:14.159
talked about Menudo and how he did seemingly have this

933
00:49:14.199 --> 00:49:17.519
obsession with them, that's right. After years of interviews with

934
00:49:17.599 --> 00:49:20.280
more than one hundred former members of the group, Roy

935
00:49:20.360 --> 00:49:25.199
Rosello came forward in the Peacock documentary Menendez plus Menudo

936
00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:30.079
Boys betrayed, alleging that Jose Menendez sexually assaulted him while

937
00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:33.320
he was at RCA. Jose invited him to his house

938
00:49:33.360 --> 00:49:36.199
when he was just fourteen years old. Rosello said that

939
00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:39.159
after Jose gave him a glass of wine, he became

940
00:49:39.280 --> 00:49:42.639
drowsy and lost muscle control. Jose took him into a

941
00:49:42.679 --> 00:49:46.639
private room and Rory doesn't remember anything after that. Later,

942
00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:49.280
he woke up in his hotel room in tremendous pain

943
00:49:49.639 --> 00:49:53.760
leading badly from his anus, and it happened again before

944
00:49:53.840 --> 00:49:57.119
and after a Menudo performance at Radio City Music Hall.

945
00:49:57.639 --> 00:50:00.360
Roy Rosello was also featured in an episode of forty

946
00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:03.920
eight Hours the Menanda's Brothers Fight for Freedom. The band's

947
00:50:03.920 --> 00:50:08.239
former manager, at Gardo Diaz, is also accused of sexually

948
00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:11.760
assaulting band members, including Roy. He said that he was

949
00:50:11.800 --> 00:50:14.679
forced to share our room with Diaz when Minuno traveled

950
00:50:15.039 --> 00:50:18.239
parents weren't allowed to go on tour. Rosello filed a

951
00:50:18.320 --> 00:50:20.920
lawsuit against Diaz in twenty twenty five.

952
00:50:21.239 --> 00:50:22.239
Wow, So I.

953
00:50:22.280 --> 00:50:27.639
Watched this four part series on Peacock and it's super disturbing.

954
00:50:28.760 --> 00:50:30.440
I did make a mistake here too, and I said

955
00:50:30.440 --> 00:50:32.760
there were more than one hundred former members of the group.

956
00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:34.639
I think there's been like fifty members of the group.

957
00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:38.400
But what Edgardo Diaz would do is he would audition

958
00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:42.519
boys at his home. So there were a lot of

959
00:50:42.639 --> 00:50:45.119
other victims too of his Yeah.

960
00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:46.719
So so so awful.

961
00:50:46.760 --> 00:50:49.800
It's so disturbing. And they set these poor boys up,

962
00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:52.280
a lot of them. You know. It came from families

963
00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:54.960
that were financially struggling, and they thought this was their

964
00:50:55.400 --> 00:51:00.599
big opportunity. And this scumbag Diaz guy would say, well,

965
00:51:00.599 --> 00:51:03.440
the parents can't come. You can't you know, there's not

966
00:51:03.559 --> 00:51:06.599
enough money, there's not enough room, whatever it is to do.

967
00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:08.960
And they were excited for their boys. You know, this

968
00:51:09.079 --> 00:51:12.039
is such a good opportunity. Yeah, and it was, you

969
00:51:12.039 --> 00:51:14.559
know the boys and Roy especially, he'll break your heart

970
00:51:14.559 --> 00:51:16.480
if you watch this show. You know, he just talks

971
00:51:16.519 --> 00:51:20.079
about the abuse and it was it was long term abuse.

972
00:51:20.519 --> 00:51:23.400
And Edgardo would he had to share a room with

973
00:51:23.480 --> 00:51:26.000
him like they would. There was always you know, five

974
00:51:26.039 --> 00:51:29.239
members of the band, and they would get to you know,

975
00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:31.719
two boys would share a room, two boys would share

976
00:51:31.760 --> 00:51:33.719
another room, and that it was usually the youngest member

977
00:51:33.760 --> 00:51:36.119
would have to share at Gardo's room with him, so

978
00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:40.480
it was just so disturbing. Roy Rosello's revelation, along with

979
00:51:40.599 --> 00:51:43.960
Andy Cano letter, prompted Lyla and Eric's attorneys they have

980
00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:46.760
new attorneys now to file a writ of habeas corpus

981
00:51:46.920 --> 00:51:50.559
in May twenty twenty three, requesting that their sentences be vacated,

982
00:51:50.679 --> 00:51:54.320
citing the new evidence that they said supported their long

983
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:58.800
standing claims of abuse. Along with shifting public attitudes about

984
00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:02.599
male sexual abuse and growing support from TikTok creators and

985
00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:06.159
a younger generation, the brothers had reason to feel hopeful again.

986
00:52:06.440 --> 00:52:10.599
Defense attorneys requested that the brother's convictions and sentences be vacated,

987
00:52:10.719 --> 00:52:13.920
re at a minimum, that the court allow a new

988
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:18.920
evidentiary hearing based on Roy Rossello's accusations, but the hope

989
00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:21.559
was short lived. In twenty twenty five, a Los Angeles

990
00:52:21.679 --> 00:52:25.159
judge rejected the habeas petition, ruling that the evidence did

991
00:52:25.159 --> 00:52:28.960
not meet the legal standard required to overturn their convictions

992
00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:32.920
or grant a new trial. However, in May twenty twenty five,

993
00:52:32.960 --> 00:52:37.800
another judge resentenced Lyle and Eric to fifty years to life,

994
00:52:37.960 --> 00:52:41.199
making them eligible for parole for the first time. The

995
00:52:41.239 --> 00:52:45.159
decision was based on California's youth offender parole laws, which

996
00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:48.199
recognized that people who commit crimes before the age of

997
00:52:48.199 --> 00:52:52.360
twenty six are still developmentally immature and may have a

998
00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:55.760
greater capacity for change. In August twenty twenty five, at

999
00:52:55.800 --> 00:52:59.599
their first parole hearings, they were both denied release. The

1000
00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:03.199
board pointed to their disciplinary records and concluded that they

1001
00:53:03.239 --> 00:53:07.519
still posed an unreasonable risk to public safety. They could

1002
00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:10.480
possibly be out for parol again as soon as twenty

1003
00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:11.239
twenty seven.

1004
00:53:11.559 --> 00:53:14.000
How old are the brothers at this point?

1005
00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:16.519
I think they're fifty five and fifty eight right now.

1006
00:53:16.960 --> 00:53:20.360
The Menenda's brothers received as many as one thousand letters

1007
00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:24.039
a week, especially when they were first in jail. Many

1008
00:53:24.079 --> 00:53:29.119
came from women expressing romantic interest, sometimes including provocative photos,

1009
00:53:29.480 --> 00:53:33.639
but many others were from abuse survivors. Lyle married Anna

1010
00:53:33.800 --> 00:53:37.480
Ericsson on July first, nineteen ninety six, the same day

1011
00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:40.960
as their sentencing, but he called it the happiest day

1012
00:53:41.000 --> 00:53:43.880
of his life. They divorced in two thousand and one

1013
00:53:44.079 --> 00:53:47.119
after she discovered that Lyle had been writing letters to

1014
00:53:47.280 --> 00:53:50.920
other women and engaging in phone sex. He's been married

1015
00:53:50.960 --> 00:53:54.880
to Rebecca snead since two thousand and three. People magazine

1016
00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:58.079
reported recently, though, that they have been separated for some time,

1017
00:53:58.360 --> 00:54:01.480
and Lyle was involved with twenty one year old college

1018
00:54:01.480 --> 00:54:05.440
student named Millie Bucksy from Manchester, England.

1019
00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:08.159
I'm not sure how you define being separated when one

1020
00:54:08.199 --> 00:54:09.800
of the spouses is in prison.

1021
00:54:10.119 --> 00:54:12.719
Yeah. True. So Eric has been married to his wife,

1022
00:54:12.760 --> 00:54:16.320
Tammy since nineteen ninety nine. She was married when she

1023
00:54:16.440 --> 00:54:19.239
initially wrote to Eric, but her husband took his own

1024
00:54:19.280 --> 00:54:22.880
life after she turned him into police for sexually assaulting

1025
00:54:22.880 --> 00:54:26.159
her fifteen year old daughter. I know what you're probably wondering.

1026
00:54:26.320 --> 00:54:30.079
Conjugal visits are not allowed for prisoners with life sentences.

1027
00:54:30.280 --> 00:54:32.679
I hadn't actually been wondering that, but how that you

1028
00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:33.960
say it, it's good to know.

1029
00:54:34.280 --> 00:54:37.519
In September nineteen ninety six, the brothers were separated and

1030
00:54:37.599 --> 00:54:40.239
sent to different prisons. They didn't see each other for

1031
00:54:40.239 --> 00:54:44.920
over twenty years. Finally, in April twenty eighteen, they were reunited,

1032
00:54:45.079 --> 00:54:47.800
and today they remain at the same prison, Richard J.

1033
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:51.599
Donov in a correctional facility in San Diego, California. They

1034
00:54:51.679 --> 00:54:53.880
see each other every day. They eat their meals together

1035
00:54:54.000 --> 00:54:58.559
and exercise together. Regularly. The brothers keep busy in prison.

1036
00:54:58.679 --> 00:55:03.000
They've earned multiple degrees. They mentor other prisoners, especially sexual

1037
00:55:03.039 --> 00:55:06.679
abuse survivors. They worked to beautify the prison and spearheaded

1038
00:55:06.719 --> 00:55:11.280
the painting of a one thousand foot mural of California.

1039
00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:15.760
Lyle has participated in many leadership roles, including prison government,

1040
00:55:16.039 --> 00:55:19.079
while Eric has focused on his art, painting several hours

1041
00:55:19.079 --> 00:55:23.000
a day, but both do have disciplinary records, including drug

1042
00:55:23.079 --> 00:55:26.639
use and illegal cell phone possession. The cell phone possession

1043
00:55:26.719 --> 00:55:30.079
charges were somewhat recent, but the drug charges were from

1044
00:55:30.199 --> 00:55:34.280
years ago. We're almost done. In twenty twenty four, Ryan

1045
00:55:34.360 --> 00:55:38.320
Murphy and Ian Brennan produced a highly stylized satirical mini

1046
00:55:38.320 --> 00:55:41.719
series for Netflix based on the Menendez brothers called Monsters.

1047
00:55:41.960 --> 00:55:45.679
The series reignited public fascination with the brothers and introduced

1048
00:55:45.719 --> 00:55:49.039
their story to a new generation. It also reopened long

1049
00:55:49.159 --> 00:55:53.320
standing debates about abuse, guilt, and motive. Monsters took liberties

1050
00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:58.039
with the facts, compressing timelines, heightening personalities, and leaning into spectacle,

1051
00:55:58.360 --> 00:56:01.400
prompting both renewed and bethy for the brothers and fresh

1052
00:56:01.440 --> 00:56:05.000
criticism from those who felt the portrayal distorted the facts.

1053
00:56:05.320 --> 00:56:08.320
Eric released the following statement after the show aired, I

1054
00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:11.199
believe we had moved beyond the lies and ruinous character

1055
00:56:11.320 --> 00:56:14.480
portrayals of Lyle, creating a character of Lyle rooted and

1056
00:56:14.599 --> 00:56:17.320
horrible and blatant lies rampant in the show. I can

1057
00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:20.320
only believe they were done so on purpose. It is

1058
00:56:20.320 --> 00:56:22.519
with a heavy heart that I say, I believe Ryan

1059
00:56:22.639 --> 00:56:26.079
Murphy cannot be this naive and inaccurate about the facts

1060
00:56:26.119 --> 00:56:29.280
of our lives so as to do this without bad intent.

1061
00:56:29.840 --> 00:56:32.079
Leslie Abramson called it a piece.

1062
00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:33.280
Of shit a little more blunt.

1063
00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:37.159
The brothers were excoriated by the media and popular culture,

1064
00:56:37.239 --> 00:56:39.679
spoofed on Saturday Night Live, and turned into fodder for

1065
00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:43.119
late night comedians, reduced to characters of spoiled, greedy, rich

1066
00:56:43.199 --> 00:56:46.920
kids rather than examined as complicated young men emerging from

1067
00:56:47.000 --> 00:56:50.880
a profoundly dysfunctional home. I probably shouldn't admit this, but

1068
00:56:51.039 --> 00:56:54.400
I actually enjoyed Monsters. It was over the top, and

1069
00:56:54.559 --> 00:56:57.880
the opening scenes are exactly how I pictured Lyle and

1070
00:56:58.000 --> 00:57:00.360
Eric during the time, like these spoiled rich cas kids

1071
00:57:00.360 --> 00:57:02.320
with you know, there's sunglasses on all the time, and

1072
00:57:02.480 --> 00:57:06.079
just respectful and you know it's not accurate. It's not

1073
00:57:06.199 --> 00:57:09.800
intended to be accurate, but you know, they do play

1074
00:57:09.880 --> 00:57:10.880
loosely with the facts.

1075
00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:13.119
Yeah, And well, when you're making a show like that

1076
00:57:13.159 --> 00:57:17.079
and you're actually using the real names of real people involved, right,

1077
00:57:17.199 --> 00:57:17.880
it bothers me.

1078
00:57:18.440 --> 00:57:23.199
Right, it's deeply, deeply hurtful to them, and they're complicated victims.

1079
00:57:23.440 --> 00:57:24.679
And yeah, for sure.

1080
00:57:24.800 --> 00:57:26.880
But I did watch it on one point five speed

1081
00:57:27.119 --> 00:57:29.880
because it's nine episodes, so I think I missed some

1082
00:57:29.960 --> 00:57:34.320
of the nuance and some of the scenes depict an

1083
00:57:34.320 --> 00:57:36.360
incestuous relationship, which.

1084
00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:38.519
Like a consensual relationship.

1085
00:57:38.719 --> 00:57:42.360
Yeah, and that's disturbing and not at all based on facts,

1086
00:57:42.400 --> 00:57:45.119
So I can understand why they did not enjoy that.

1087
00:57:45.960 --> 00:57:49.880
Wrapping some things up here, Judelan Smith sued jerome o'zial

1088
00:57:50.039 --> 00:57:53.840
for beating, drugging, raping, and kidnapping her. The case was

1089
00:57:53.920 --> 00:57:57.679
ultimately settled out of court, with Smith reportedly receiving between

1090
00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:01.519
four hundred and five hundred thousand dollars from his malpractice insurance.

1091
00:58:01.760 --> 00:58:05.360
Oziel maintained that they were never in a relationship. Two

1092
00:58:05.440 --> 00:58:08.079
women who had once worked as nanny's for the Oziel

1093
00:58:08.199 --> 00:58:12.000
family described relationships they had with Jerry that gave credibility

1094
00:58:12.079 --> 00:58:16.400
to Judelan's account. Speaking to ABC's Primetime Live, the women

1095
00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:19.320
said that they had been involved with him romantically during

1096
00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:23.599
the nineteen eighties. They portrayed him as controlling and emotionally abusive,

1097
00:58:23.719 --> 00:58:27.079
and alleged that he had provided them with prescription medications

1098
00:58:27.239 --> 00:58:29.360
and manipulated them psychologically.

1099
00:58:29.639 --> 00:58:32.400
And he said that his career was basically over after

1100
00:58:32.440 --> 00:58:33.000
this whole thing.

1101
00:58:33.440 --> 00:58:36.039
His license he didn't have. Well I don't think I

1102
00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:39.639
said this, but his license was actually suspended when he

1103
00:58:39.880 --> 00:58:43.039
was with Eric and Lyle. Oh really so, yeah, but

1104
00:58:43.119 --> 00:58:46.239
I think he had to relinquish his license, and I

1105
00:58:46.320 --> 00:58:49.400
think I'm not sure what he's doing today, But after

1106
00:58:49.840 --> 00:58:54.199
this case, I think he moved out of California to Arizona. Yeah,

1107
00:58:54.239 --> 00:58:57.679
and he did like some therapy for married couples or

1108
00:58:57.719 --> 00:59:01.239
something like that. Do you remember mister Buffalo Lyle's restaurant.

1109
00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:01.440
Oh?

1110
00:59:01.519 --> 00:59:04.880
Yeah, it was sold after his conviction and they changed

1111
00:59:04.920 --> 00:59:08.079
the name back to Chuck's Spring Street Cafe, where it

1112
00:59:08.159 --> 00:59:11.760
remains today. In May of twenty twenty six, I believe

1113
00:59:11.800 --> 00:59:16.280
additional episodes of the Menudo documentary are going to be released.

1114
00:59:16.599 --> 00:59:19.119
He must have had more victims that were ready to

1115
00:59:19.119 --> 00:59:19.599
come forward.

1116
00:59:19.679 --> 00:59:21.519
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. It sounds like there were

1117
00:59:21.599 --> 00:59:21.960
a lot.

1118
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:25.360
Do you know who the most famous member of Manuda was.

1119
00:59:25.639 --> 00:59:27.880
I don't. I'm sure I'll know it when you say it, but.

1120
00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:31.519
No, Ricky Martin. Of course, he was very young and

1121
00:59:31.559 --> 00:59:35.239
allegedly he has never come forward, but allegedly he was

1122
00:59:35.280 --> 00:59:40.519
abused by Edgardo Diaz and also potentially Jose Menendez.

1123
00:59:40.599 --> 00:59:40.719
Wo.

1124
00:59:41.519 --> 00:59:44.840
Robert Rand sat Ricky Martin down and had a conversation

1125
00:59:44.960 --> 00:59:47.880
with him, and I don't feel comfortable talking about it.

1126
00:59:47.880 --> 00:59:51.199
But Robert Rand talks about it in this Menudo documentary.

1127
00:59:51.960 --> 00:59:54.920
But Ricky Martin, what he told him was in confidence

1128
00:59:55.519 --> 00:59:57.519
and so he can't really talk about it other but

1129
00:59:57.639 --> 01:00:02.000
he's implying that, Yeah, he's impl something happened. Yeah, the

1130
01:00:02.039 --> 01:00:05.079
whole thing is just so disturbing. Yeah, it's the whole

1131
01:00:05.119 --> 01:00:08.880
Menudo thing and young boys being sexually abused. You know,

1132
01:00:08.920 --> 01:00:11.719
there's so many boy bands out there, and I know

1133
01:00:11.800 --> 01:00:15.199
that there is, you know, more abuse that young boys don't.

1134
01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:16.679
Want to talk about. And all of these boy bands

1135
01:00:16.920 --> 01:00:20.400
were arranged by other people, right, so it's there are

1136
01:00:20.440 --> 01:00:23.079
people in controlling them in a lot of ways. So

1137
01:00:23.559 --> 01:00:25.760
you can totally see how that could happen.

1138
01:00:26.199 --> 01:00:29.559
Research suggests that at least one in six boys experienced

1139
01:00:29.639 --> 01:00:32.760
sexual abuse before the age of eighteen. And Yeah, for decades,

1140
01:00:32.800 --> 01:00:36.599
abuse of boys has been profoundly under recognized. Boys are

1141
01:00:36.679 --> 01:00:39.760
less likely to be believed, less likely to disclose, and

1142
01:00:39.840 --> 01:00:43.079
more likely to be met with silence, minimization, or shame.

1143
01:00:43.440 --> 01:00:46.119
There's so much shame and sexual abuse for both men

1144
01:00:46.199 --> 01:00:49.320
and women, but I think especially young boys really suffer. Yeah,

1145
01:00:49.400 --> 01:00:51.559
and there's not as many places for them to go.

1146
01:00:51.880 --> 01:00:54.400
Yeah, for sure, hopefully that's changing a little bit, but

1147
01:00:54.440 --> 01:00:56.559
I'm sure it's still we have a long way to go.

1148
01:00:56.920 --> 01:00:58.800
We'll think of all the abuse that has gone on

1149
01:00:58.920 --> 01:01:01.760
in churches throughout the year and boy Scouts, and you

1150
01:01:01.800 --> 01:01:02.280
know all.

1151
01:01:02.159 --> 01:01:03.800
Of those and a lot of that was covered up

1152
01:01:03.840 --> 01:01:04.559
for so long.

1153
01:01:05.599 --> 01:01:09.039
Rest in peace to Kitty and Jose What a complicated story.

1154
01:01:09.079 --> 01:01:10.440
This is very complicated.

1155
01:01:10.800 --> 01:01:12.679
Well what do you think, oh, boy?

1156
01:01:13.119 --> 01:01:16.400
Like you said, it's a complicated story. And you know,

1157
01:01:16.440 --> 01:01:18.400
we talked about it already, but I didn't. I didn't

1158
01:01:18.400 --> 01:01:20.480
have much of an impression going into it. But the

1159
01:01:20.480 --> 01:01:23.480
impression I did have was spoiled rich kids after their

1160
01:01:23.519 --> 01:01:26.440
parents' money. And I don't think that anymore. I still

1161
01:01:26.480 --> 01:01:29.280
think what they did was wrong and they should have

1162
01:01:29.440 --> 01:01:30.559
been punished for it.

1163
01:01:30.599 --> 01:01:33.119
But no one is saying they shouldn't be punished for it.

1164
01:01:33.039 --> 01:01:35.320
Right, But I do think there is a lot of

1165
01:01:35.360 --> 01:01:38.679
mitigating circumstances there, and I don't I don't think they

1166
01:01:38.960 --> 01:01:41.000
deserve life in prison without parole.

1167
01:01:41.280 --> 01:01:44.480
So you believe that they were sexually abused.

1168
01:01:44.119 --> 01:01:46.880
Oh totally. I totally believe that now, especially so after

1169
01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:49.559
hearing all the people that testified. But then the letter,

1170
01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:53.000
the letter to Andy, I mean, I know Andy wasn't

1171
01:01:53.000 --> 01:01:54.400
alive to be able to corroberate.

1172
01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:57.880
Some people do say, oh, that letter is convenient. Could

1173
01:01:58.199 --> 01:02:00.639
could Eric have written the letter and ailed it like

1174
01:02:01.079 --> 01:02:04.320
after the murders, you know, and Aunt Martha, you know,

1175
01:02:04.400 --> 01:02:05.079
covered it up.

1176
01:02:05.199 --> 01:02:08.000
And yeah, I suppose it's possible, but it sure sounds

1177
01:02:08.199 --> 01:02:10.679
sounded like a seventeen year old wrote that letter to me.

1178
01:02:10.800 --> 01:02:12.800
But welthough, that's the point though, like he could have

1179
01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:15.320
written it like when he was eighteen, not when he

1180
01:02:15.400 --> 01:02:16.920
was in his forties or whatever.

1181
01:02:17.000 --> 01:02:18.559
I get it. But I just feel like there's enough,

1182
01:02:18.800 --> 01:02:21.960
there's enough evidence there that they were abused that I'm

1183
01:02:22.480 --> 01:02:23.280
I'm convinced.

1184
01:02:23.440 --> 01:02:27.119
I agree too, because my impression was also like, Okay,

1185
01:02:27.159 --> 01:02:30.519
you have money, you have resources, you had cars, why

1186
01:02:30.599 --> 01:02:32.920
didn't you leave? But I do believe if they had

1187
01:02:33.000 --> 01:02:35.679
left that Jose would have found them. Yeah, he would

1188
01:02:35.679 --> 01:02:36.280
have hold believe them.

1189
01:02:36.519 --> 01:02:39.840
He was a powerful guy and also seemed like he

1190
01:02:40.039 --> 01:02:42.840
was kind of vengeful, so it would not it surprised

1191
01:02:42.880 --> 01:02:43.760
me at all if he had.

1192
01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:46.079
How do you view Kitty? Do you view her as

1193
01:02:46.079 --> 01:02:49.760
a victim, an enabler or both both? Yeah?

1194
01:02:49.760 --> 01:02:51.880
I think she probably was a victim in some ways,

1195
01:02:51.880 --> 01:02:54.280
but I think she also was I think she also

1196
01:02:54.320 --> 01:02:56.320
wasn't enabler and or how else to put it? But yeah,

1197
01:02:56.360 --> 01:02:59.480
she let a lot of things happen. But I don't know,

1198
01:02:59.519 --> 01:03:01.320
it's just we talked about it, I think in after

1199
01:03:01.440 --> 01:03:04.320
part one. But there's like, I don't know where you

1200
01:03:04.400 --> 01:03:07.360
draw the line between being like I had a horrible

1201
01:03:07.440 --> 01:03:11.159
upbringing and you know, so that's why I do the

1202
01:03:11.199 --> 01:03:14.440
things I do, versus taking responsibility for your own actions.

1203
01:03:14.440 --> 01:03:16.679
I think it's really difficult to draw that line.

1204
01:03:17.039 --> 01:03:19.599
Does it bother you that Kitty died as well, that

1205
01:03:19.679 --> 01:03:20.360
they killed her?

1206
01:03:20.599 --> 01:03:22.679
Do you think that she it bothers me that they

1207
01:03:22.679 --> 01:03:24.880
both died? Like, I don't think either of them deserved

1208
01:03:25.039 --> 01:03:28.679
to die, right. I think she was less culpable than

1209
01:03:28.800 --> 01:03:31.800
Jose was in the things that were done to Lyle

1210
01:03:31.840 --> 01:03:34.639
and Eric, but neither of them deserve to die.

1211
01:03:34.960 --> 01:03:37.679
I guess what I mean is that, you know, jose

1212
01:03:37.960 --> 01:03:40.280
was the one who posed the biggest threat to them, right,

1213
01:03:40.719 --> 01:03:43.559
And had she been alive, they wouldn't have inherited the money.

1214
01:03:43.599 --> 01:03:46.679
She would have inherited the money. So if you have

1215
01:03:46.760 --> 01:03:49.599
any doubt about, you know, the sexual abuse, then you

1216
01:03:49.599 --> 01:03:51.519
could say, well, that's why Kitty had to die.

1217
01:03:51.760 --> 01:03:52.960
Yeah, that's a good point.

1218
01:03:53.159 --> 01:03:55.280
Are you surprised that the brothers had so much support

1219
01:03:55.320 --> 01:03:58.280
from their family a little bit? Yeah, that sounds like

1220
01:03:58.280 --> 01:04:00.880
it made you more convinced abuse happened.

1221
01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:03.039
Yeah, it did, because normally you would think the family

1222
01:04:03.400 --> 01:04:07.159
would be pretty much universally against them. But the fact

1223
01:04:07.199 --> 01:04:10.199
that they supported them tells me that they also knew

1224
01:04:10.199 --> 01:04:12.079
that something was not right in the family.

1225
01:04:12.079 --> 01:04:15.159
Something that gives me pause, though, is that a lot

1226
01:04:15.159 --> 01:04:17.559
of the cousins went and spent a lot of time

1227
01:04:17.800 --> 01:04:20.559
at the Menenta's home during the summers. And if there

1228
01:04:20.639 --> 01:04:22.760
was if everyone knew that there was abuse going on,

1229
01:04:22.800 --> 01:04:24.679
why would you send kids there?

1230
01:04:25.239 --> 01:04:25.440
Yeah?

1231
01:04:25.519 --> 01:04:27.639
Unless it was just the fun house because they had

1232
01:04:27.639 --> 01:04:29.639
a pool and a tennis court and they had more money.

1233
01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:30.360
Yeah, it could be.

1234
01:04:30.719 --> 01:04:32.960
Are you surprised that the brothers didn't turn on each other?

1235
01:04:33.840 --> 01:04:38.039
So we talked about how Leslie said that it was

1236
01:04:38.079 --> 01:04:40.719
really lile right that killed both of his parents.

1237
01:04:40.920 --> 01:04:43.400
Yeah, it seemed like the brother like they had an

1238
01:04:43.400 --> 01:04:47.000
interesting relationship. It sounds like Lyle viewed himself as maybe

1239
01:04:47.119 --> 01:04:50.639
Eric's protector in some way. But it seems like I

1240
01:04:50.679 --> 01:04:53.360
think in situations like that, if they're both being they're

1241
01:04:53.400 --> 01:04:56.440
both in a similar situation with their upbringing, and I

1242
01:04:56.440 --> 01:04:59.599
would imagine you get closer together with your brother when

1243
01:04:59.599 --> 01:05:02.440
you're both in that situation. So it doesn't surprise me

1244
01:05:02.519 --> 01:05:03.679
that they didn't turn on each other.

1245
01:05:03.800 --> 01:05:05.800
I think Eric had a lot of guilt because he

1246
01:05:05.960 --> 01:05:10.199
was the one that confessed to doctor o'zell and he

1247
01:05:10.199 --> 01:05:12.480
he kind of fell apart after the murders, and I

1248
01:05:12.480 --> 01:05:14.239
think he had some guilt because of that.

1249
01:05:14.519 --> 01:05:16.119
Yeah, I'm sure he did. I wonder do you think

1250
01:05:16.159 --> 01:05:20.119
they would have been arrested and tried if he.

1251
01:05:20.079 --> 01:05:24.000
Hadn't That's the question. I think they eventually would have been.

1252
01:05:24.039 --> 01:05:26.320
I would think so take a lot of they said

1253
01:05:26.639 --> 01:05:29.239
they committed the perfect crime. They really did. We talked

1254
01:05:29.280 --> 01:05:31.239
about this a lot, like they really just kind of

1255
01:05:31.239 --> 01:05:31.800
got lucky.

1256
01:05:31.960 --> 01:05:32.480
Yeah.

1257
01:05:32.559 --> 01:05:35.679
If the Menanda's brothers had been the Menenda's sisters, would

1258
01:05:35.679 --> 01:05:38.039
the outcome be different. Do you think that they would

1259
01:05:38.039 --> 01:05:40.440
be more believed as victims of sexual abuse?

1260
01:05:40.519 --> 01:05:42.880
Yeah? I hadn't really thought about that, but now that

1261
01:05:42.920 --> 01:05:46.480
you say it, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they

1262
01:05:46.480 --> 01:05:49.840
were believed more if that played into it more so.

1263
01:05:49.920 --> 01:05:52.920
I felt like the second trial was really unfair because

1264
01:05:52.920 --> 01:05:55.760
they limited the defense's scope so much. What do you

1265
01:05:55.800 --> 01:05:57.760
think about that? Do you think the judge was out

1266
01:05:57.800 --> 01:05:58.400
for blood?

1267
01:05:58.880 --> 01:06:01.360
I don't know what the judge's motivation was, but I

1268
01:06:01.400 --> 01:06:03.800
completely agree with you. It doesn't seem fair at all

1269
01:06:03.920 --> 01:06:06.800
that you're not allowed to introduce that sort of you know,

1270
01:06:06.880 --> 01:06:11.400
mitigating circumstances like, yes, we did kill them, but here's

1271
01:06:11.480 --> 01:06:13.840
why I would think the jury should be allowed to

1272
01:06:13.880 --> 01:06:15.760
hear that. And I don't know the judge. It makes

1273
01:06:15.800 --> 01:06:17.760
me think, you know, because it was the same judge.

1274
01:06:18.199 --> 01:06:20.679
He just didn't want another mistrial and so he wanted,

1275
01:06:20.960 --> 01:06:23.280
you know, a conclusion. And you said this was right

1276
01:06:23.320 --> 01:06:24.719
after the oj trial team.

1277
01:06:24.760 --> 01:06:27.199
Yeah, and it sounds silly, but I do think that

1278
01:06:27.280 --> 01:06:29.800
those things were linked, and it wasn't long after like

1279
01:06:29.840 --> 01:06:32.199
the Rodney King stuff, and so there were just a

1280
01:06:32.199 --> 01:06:35.119
lot of things pressure. Yeah, that was making the state

1281
01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:37.159
look like they weren't doing a good job.

1282
01:06:37.360 --> 01:06:39.880
I hate to be cynical and feel like there's a conspiracy,

1283
01:06:39.880 --> 01:06:41.719
but it does sort of feel that way that they

1284
01:06:41.760 --> 01:06:43.800
were really wanted to make sure they were going to

1285
01:06:43.800 --> 01:06:44.400
get a conviction.

1286
01:06:44.800 --> 01:06:47.800
But you know, they work and they did murder their parents,

1287
01:06:47.880 --> 01:06:50.719
you know for sure. So I was able to change

1288
01:06:50.719 --> 01:06:53.159
your mind about this case, you were, and.

1289
01:06:53.119 --> 01:06:55.119
It sounds like you kind of changed your mind over

1290
01:06:55.159 --> 01:06:58.239
the course of researching it as well. Yeah, what is

1291
01:06:58.280 --> 01:07:00.760
your sense of public opinion in general on this?

1292
01:07:01.239 --> 01:07:04.000
I feel like at this point, most people are okay

1293
01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:06.440
with them being released from prison. They've done their time,

1294
01:07:06.519 --> 01:07:09.199
they've been in prison for over thirty five years, and

1295
01:07:09.800 --> 01:07:12.239
they don't see them as a threat. But you know,

1296
01:07:12.320 --> 01:07:14.760
some people are like, no, they killed their parents, and

1297
01:07:14.800 --> 01:07:17.280
they killed their parents for money, and you know.

1298
01:07:17.559 --> 01:07:19.280
I know some people take a very black and white

1299
01:07:19.360 --> 01:07:21.760
view of that kind of thing, like, hey, you killed somebody,

1300
01:07:21.880 --> 01:07:23.320
you need to be in prison for the rest of

1301
01:07:23.320 --> 01:07:23.719
your life.

1302
01:07:23.800 --> 01:07:26.679
I've yeah, I do sometimes. Yeah, something like this case

1303
01:07:26.800 --> 01:07:29.039
is a little more nuanced. And I say this a lot,

1304
01:07:29.039 --> 01:07:31.199
but I'm going to mention it warmer time here. It's

1305
01:07:31.239 --> 01:07:33.599
okay if you disagree with us, right, it's okay if

1306
01:07:33.599 --> 01:07:36.159
you look at the evidence in your life. Experience takes

1307
01:07:36.199 --> 01:07:38.440
you to a different place than where we ended up.

1308
01:07:38.519 --> 01:07:41.360
We don't always have to agree on everything. Yeah, well

1309
01:07:41.440 --> 01:07:52.159
that is the story of Eric and lyele Menandez. I

1310
01:07:52.159 --> 01:07:53.559
am sorry, but I am going to have to call

1311
01:07:53.800 --> 01:07:55.199
HR again again.

1312
01:07:55.320 --> 01:07:57.679
And he's called HR meets so many times.

1313
01:07:57.719 --> 01:08:00.400
I know, but you've been shirking. I didn't have a

1314
01:08:00.440 --> 01:08:04.639
frosty soda. It is after my working hours. I'm here

1315
01:08:04.719 --> 01:08:05.800
after eight pm.

1316
01:08:05.960 --> 01:08:08.199
We never finalized, not gone.

1317
01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:10.239
Into the bathroom. I have not got that time.

1318
01:08:10.360 --> 01:08:13.960
Knew I could. You could have had a break anytime.

1319
01:08:14.159 --> 01:08:16.960
You could just allowed get tell by the look on

1320
01:08:17.000 --> 01:08:18.560
your face that you would not allow it.

1321
01:08:18.760 --> 01:08:22.720
So yeah, well we never actually finished our labor negotiations

1322
01:08:22.760 --> 01:08:26.159
for this year. So you know, I don't think your

1323
01:08:26.199 --> 01:08:28.520
accusations are going to hold up in the court of lot.

1324
01:08:30.399 --> 01:08:33.039
Sorry, all right, I know you just finished a three

1325
01:08:33.079 --> 01:08:37.319
parter with Oscar Pastorias book Man they're kind of exhausting.

1326
01:08:37.479 --> 01:08:40.000
Does take a lot out of you because it's it's

1327
01:08:40.000 --> 01:08:42.960
an in depth, you know, research that you have to do,

1328
01:08:43.079 --> 01:08:44.520
and there's a lot of that goes in.

1329
01:08:44.880 --> 01:08:47.800
I really kind of enjoy doing it. I don't think

1330
01:08:47.800 --> 01:08:50.039
we've talked about it before, like, if we could, we

1331
01:08:50.079 --> 01:08:54.560
would love to do seven part, eight part, nine part episodes.

1332
01:08:54.600 --> 01:08:56.119
Well no, I just mean, like, you know, to go

1333
01:08:56.159 --> 01:08:58.279
out into the field and do research.

1334
01:08:57.920 --> 01:09:00.319
Do a little bit more of a yeah, like deep

1335
01:09:00.399 --> 01:09:04.600
dive first first, you know, person account of a case exactly.

1336
01:09:04.760 --> 01:09:06.439
Yes, I think we would both enjoy that. But it

1337
01:09:06.439 --> 01:09:10.760
always surprises me that I think we agree most of

1338
01:09:10.800 --> 01:09:13.319
the time we do. It's almost like we share our brain.

1339
01:09:13.560 --> 01:09:15.399
Well, I know, because at the end of that episode

1340
01:09:15.439 --> 01:09:17.439
you were talking about it's okay if you disagree with us.

1341
01:09:17.479 --> 01:09:20.000
It occurred to me that we hardly ever disagree with

1342
01:09:20.039 --> 01:09:21.000
each other once.

1343
01:09:20.840 --> 01:09:23.199
About this stuff. We agree on plenty of disagree on

1344
01:09:23.239 --> 01:09:24.199
plenty of other things.

1345
01:09:24.319 --> 01:09:26.960
Yeah, exactly, but yeah, and this and these cases, I

1346
01:09:26.960 --> 01:09:30.279
can't think of one that we've really strongly disagreed on.

1347
01:09:30.399 --> 01:09:32.079
I think there are a couple that we had maybe

1348
01:09:32.600 --> 01:09:35.119
slightly different, like you might have felt a little strong

1349
01:09:35.239 --> 01:09:36.560
urb or less, but.

1350
01:09:36.720 --> 01:09:39.520
Well, like some of the cases are impossible, like Rebecca's.

1351
01:09:39.640 --> 01:09:42.239
How yeah, Like that's one that I always think about, Like,

1352
01:09:42.359 --> 01:09:45.119
I wish we knew more. Sometimes we just don't have

1353
01:09:45.239 --> 01:09:48.760
enough information, right, or enough research or not research, but

1354
01:09:48.840 --> 01:09:50.640
you know, evidence at the scene of the crime.

1355
01:09:50.720 --> 01:09:52.520
Yeah, I think a lot of times when it ends

1356
01:09:52.600 --> 01:09:54.920
up with a case like that, especially, all I can

1357
01:09:54.960 --> 01:09:57.319
say is I don't know. I mean, I really wish

1358
01:09:57.359 --> 01:09:59.680
I knew, but I just I think there are people

1359
01:09:59.720 --> 01:10:02.000
out there, Like I listened to some other podcasts that,

1360
01:10:02.359 --> 01:10:03.479
you know, they have strong.

1361
01:10:03.399 --> 01:10:06.119
Other podcasts are you listening to I have.

1362
01:10:07.000 --> 01:10:09.960
In my past Before we started our podcast, I did

1363
01:10:10.119 --> 01:10:13.159
listen to a few other podcasts, and it always strikes me, how,

1364
01:10:13.399 --> 01:10:16.159
you know, some podcasters have really strong opinions. I'm like,

1365
01:10:16.159 --> 01:10:17.880
how can you have that strong of an opinion?

1366
01:10:17.920 --> 01:10:20.399
Like you's just us though I think in general we're

1367
01:10:20.479 --> 01:10:22.159
kind of you can you can if you have a

1368
01:10:22.159 --> 01:10:25.119
good argument, you can convince me. I'm never too proud

1369
01:10:25.119 --> 01:10:28.520
to be like, yeah, it's your point. Yeah, and something's

1370
01:10:28.600 --> 01:10:32.039
not not all things? Yeah, all right. We don't know

1371
01:10:32.119 --> 01:10:34.720
the results of the Super Bowl because it's January twenty ninth,

1372
01:10:34.800 --> 01:10:36.079
when we're recording this, Well.

1373
01:10:35.920 --> 01:10:37.840
We know the results because I already told you that

1374
01:10:37.880 --> 01:10:38.399
they're going.

1375
01:10:38.279 --> 01:10:40.399
To be that's right, that's right. I forgot about that.

1376
01:10:41.279 --> 01:10:44.680
You're so smart. But I feel bad for you because

1377
01:10:45.079 --> 01:10:49.319
it's it's the dark season still, and there's no there's

1378
01:10:49.319 --> 01:10:52.960
no college football, there's no baseball. Everything is all over over,

1379
01:10:53.399 --> 01:10:55.840
everything in one game. No reason to get out of

1380
01:10:55.840 --> 01:10:56.439
that in the morning.

1381
01:10:56.560 --> 01:10:59.199
I'm not a basketball fan. I do like hockey, but

1382
01:10:59.239 --> 01:11:02.319
I don't really watch hockey very often at all. Maybe

1383
01:11:02.319 --> 01:11:04.680
if like the Red Wings make the playoffs. But yeah,

1384
01:11:04.720 --> 01:11:08.520
in general, from now until April, it's a tough time.

1385
01:11:08.800 --> 01:11:10.520
You have to spend time with your wife.

1386
01:11:10.680 --> 01:11:14.199
I don't know. Yeah, jeez, yeah, that's rough.

1387
01:11:14.560 --> 01:11:16.239
Shut up. You know lucky you are, mister.

1388
01:11:16.359 --> 01:11:20.159
Oh wait, no, I meant I love spending time with you.

1389
01:11:20.359 --> 01:11:22.399
Yeah. Of course we need some new shows to watch,

1390
01:11:22.399 --> 01:11:25.600
so if you guys have recommendations for us, yeah, because

1391
01:11:25.840 --> 01:11:29.079
we don't have anything to talk about. So we watched shows,

1392
01:11:30.560 --> 01:11:33.000
and I think anyone who's been married for more than

1393
01:11:33.680 --> 01:11:36.439
six or seven hours relate to that.

1394
01:11:36.720 --> 01:11:40.760
Well, we really enjoyed Pluribus, but that really even one ended,

1395
01:11:40.800 --> 01:11:42.479
but that was really it was.

1396
01:11:42.479 --> 01:11:44.800
A good mix for me, and you liked it too.

1397
01:11:45.000 --> 01:11:46.479
Not everyone likes it though.

1398
01:11:46.399 --> 01:11:48.239
Not everyone likes it, but there was to me. It

1399
01:11:48.319 --> 01:11:50.720
had some humor in it, but it was also serious,

1400
01:11:50.800 --> 01:11:52.359
but it gave you a lot to talk about, Like

1401
01:11:52.399 --> 01:11:54.359
you could after you watch it, you could talk for

1402
01:11:54.600 --> 01:11:56.840
hours about what does what does that mean? What does

1403
01:11:56.880 --> 01:11:57.319
this mean?

1404
01:11:57.319 --> 01:11:59.239
And I think about this all the time, Like if

1405
01:11:59.239 --> 01:12:03.159
something like that were to happen, like in apocalypse, like

1406
01:12:03.840 --> 01:12:04.880
how will I react?

1407
01:12:05.199 --> 01:12:06.920
Right? I think that's why a lot of people like

1408
01:12:06.920 --> 01:12:09.319
shows like that, because it's like you put yourself in

1409
01:12:09.359 --> 01:12:11.560
the shoes of the person you know in the in

1410
01:12:11.600 --> 01:12:13.159
the show, and you're like, how would I what would

1411
01:12:13.159 --> 01:12:13.359
I do?

1412
01:12:13.560 --> 01:12:16.039
Yeah, Like a lot of bad things happen, but you know,

1413
01:12:16.239 --> 01:12:19.680
society just keeps chugging along, so you just have to

1414
01:12:19.720 --> 01:12:22.920
wonder if like a zombie apocalypse did happen you adapt to.

1415
01:12:23.039 --> 01:12:25.319
I think we talked about this actually somewhat recently, but

1416
01:12:25.359 --> 01:12:27.640
I would be among the first two percent to go.

1417
01:12:27.800 --> 01:12:28.479
I'm pretty sure.

1418
01:12:28.600 --> 01:12:31.319
Hm. That makes me sad because I'm going to stick

1419
01:12:31.359 --> 01:12:32.720
around for a lot longer.

1420
01:12:32.720 --> 01:12:35.000
Well, you'll have to like put me in a closet

1421
01:12:35.079 --> 01:12:37.760
or something, or I will protect you, but no, you'll

1422
01:12:37.760 --> 01:12:40.439
have to find the antidote, okay, because I think like

1423
01:12:40.479 --> 01:12:42.520
on The Walking Dad, we stopped watching it after a

1424
01:12:42.520 --> 01:12:44.479
few seasons, but at some point there's got to be

1425
01:12:44.520 --> 01:12:46.680
an antidote, right, So don't put like a steak through

1426
01:12:46.720 --> 01:12:47.960
my heart or anything like that.

1427
01:12:48.039 --> 01:12:49.319
You know, I'm probably not going to be the one

1428
01:12:49.319 --> 01:12:52.000
to find the antidote, but I'm gonna I'm a survivor

1429
01:12:52.039 --> 01:12:53.520
and I'll protect you as well.

1430
01:12:53.640 --> 01:12:56.960
Okay, Well, I appreciate it. That's that's amazing. All right. Well,

1431
01:12:57.000 --> 01:12:57.920
I think that's all we have.

1432
01:12:58.479 --> 01:13:01.640
Thank you all so much for listening and for supporting us.

1433
01:13:01.680 --> 01:13:04.199
We truly appreciate each and every one of you.

1434
01:13:04.239 --> 01:13:07.880
Please rate, review, follow and subscribe. Find us on social media,

1435
01:13:08.000 --> 01:13:10.880
or send us an email at Lovemary Kill at gmail

1436
01:13:10.920 --> 01:13:13.479
dot com. And if you have a YouTube account, come

1437
01:13:13.560 --> 01:13:15.279
follow us over on YouTube.

1438
01:13:15.359 --> 01:13:16.920
I'm starting a new thing on YouTube.

1439
01:13:18.039 --> 01:13:20.079
I always got something new up your sleeve.

1440
01:13:19.840 --> 01:13:22.479
Don't you do well on the YouTube side of things.

1441
01:13:22.640 --> 01:13:25.479
I used to try to put together a slide show.

1442
01:13:25.600 --> 01:13:27.920
But it was it was a lot of work.

1443
01:13:28.000 --> 01:13:29.800
It was too much work, and so I stopped doing that.

1444
01:13:29.840 --> 01:13:31.039
So now it's really boring.

1445
01:13:31.159 --> 01:13:33.479
It's really boring. It's just the audio essentially.

1446
01:13:33.760 --> 01:13:35.079
People so much people care.

1447
01:13:35.199 --> 01:13:36.840
I don't know how much people care either, but I'm

1448
01:13:36.880 --> 01:13:40.720
going to try it out. I've got a slide show

1449
01:13:40.960 --> 01:13:43.600
type thing that I can generate without a huge amount

1450
01:13:43.600 --> 01:13:45.159
of effort, so I'm going to try it.

1451
01:13:45.600 --> 01:13:48.119
Well, now, grow over on the TikTok, and the TikTok

1452
01:13:48.239 --> 01:13:51.239
is like people are like, oh no, the rules are

1453
01:13:51.560 --> 01:13:52.680
the TikTok.

1454
01:13:52.520 --> 01:13:53.840
As long as we got to TikTok.

1455
01:13:54.760 --> 01:13:56.880
But yeah, I heard that their deletions are up like

1456
01:13:56.920 --> 01:13:59.560
two percent, so yeah, but we're there. Yeah. Well that's

1457
01:13:59.560 --> 01:14:01.479
all it takes, exis for us to go somewhere and

1458
01:14:01.520 --> 01:14:02.840
then it's like not cool anymore.

1459
01:14:02.880 --> 01:14:03.880
That's just how it happens.

1460
01:14:04.279 --> 01:14:07.199
Well, anyway, until next time, don't kill your wife and

1461
01:14:07.239 --> 01:14:08.159
don't kill your husband.