The Menendez Family - Part 3 of 3

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage. It's that some days you'll feel like killing your. Wife, and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hi Rich, Hi Tina. How are you. I'm doing good. How are you? I'm a little sleepy, but I'm otherwise great. I'm glad to hear I am looking forward to being done with the Menanda's case and moving on. I bet you are a lot of times when we do these three part episodes, or I guess when I do them, I have a lot of dreams about whoever we're doing the case on, and it's hard to shake it. Yeah, because you really do.

0:50 You're immersed in the story and you feel like you're part of the story, and I want to make sure that I'm doing the story justice. Yeah. And it's been a few days since we recorded part two, so you've been living with this story for and I know that you worked on it for a long time, so you've been it's been in your head for quite a. While weeks, Yeah, since Christmas. It's Monday, February sixteenth. Thank you so much for the wonderful Valentine's Day gift you really shouldn't have. You're so welcome. I mean, how many carrots was that? That joke never ever gets old. Well, you never seem to take the hint. But it's still freezing here. We're still in the tundra. Yeah. Today, on the way home, I went out and it was about three o'clock and I was driving by the middle school fifteen degrees. What do you think the middle school boys were wearing.

1:37 A light sweatshirt, maybe a little sack hoodie or something like hoodies unzipped. Well, they had like, you know, hoodies and yeah, but pretty much all of them were wearing hoodies and no jackets. But none of them were wearing shorts. But that cracks me up because I remember when our son was that age, it was like jackets. I'm not sure why, but jackets. You know, they're like allergic to them or something. Yeah, but it's it's pretty cold here. I thought that maybe we could get away this weekend and go a few hours south, but even you know, four or five hours, it's still really cold. So it's not just us. We're in good company. I was talking to a colleague that lives in Austin, Texas, and he was saying they got they got like an inch of snow, which wouldn't be a lot for us, but for them. Yeah, they had two days off school because of that.

2:21 Some of our Australian friends have been sending me pictures of their beach vacations and it looks pretty nice to end. Some California people too, So they're doing okay, but most of us are still really cold. Yeah. So the other day opened Netflix and I was really surprised to see a popular podcast is now featured on Netflix. And I'll be honest, I was a little envious. Yeah, our competitors who are like two billion times more successful than we are, Murder with my Husband are now on Netflix. I know Netflix is going big into podcasts. I also saw I think it was last podcast on the Left is there as well. Isn't that one kind of controversial? I don't really know a lot about it, but yeah, it was surprising because it was like the featured thing on Netflix.

3:05 Was so it's more than just Murder with my Husband. Yeah, it is that. I've read that they're going big into podcasts, but they're they're. Only I've gotten no calls. Well, they're only doing video podcasts. Yeah, people who do video and we don't do video. Yeah, should we? Should we do videos? Should we put ourselves out there? I think we're pretty both pretty comfortable with the decision not to. Well, what they wonder is how you keep recording? Do they stop? Do they break it? I don't know. I didn't watch, but you shrinking a. Lot because I make a lot of mistakes and. We had to go back and I'm sure there's some editing involved. But yeah, I'm curious about that too. Yeah, So I'm curious if you guys have watched the podcasts and how you feel about them.

3:47 And if anyone out there works for Netflix and you want, you know, maybe a slightly lesser known audio only podcast to. Be on Netflix boring. I'm sure people don't want that. We've talked about this a lot. We have chosen to put our faces out there, and I'm still very comfortable with that decision. Sane, Well, I did bring you a snack. It's something that I made a few days ago, and I guess you haven't partaken in them. But I made some brownies, just a Garadeli mix. I have a problem. I can't just make a Gharadeli mix. But I put some caramel in them and chopped up symphony bar on top and some chocolate chunks, and then I frosted them so they weren't there. I'm sending them to someone beloved and special, so kind.

4:29 To make them special. Well, yeah, I'm excited to try them. All right, Well help yourself, all right, so rate my brownies. What did you think? Oh? Kind of a ten? Easy? I mean, the Ghara Deli mix is so good. It's just chocolate e and then your additions I think helped. I think it adds just more. You know, it's a little decadent, but it's really good. Yeah, they are. They are cut very small. I should point that out. Yeah, I like things to be chunky. Well, the heaven the frosting on top is really a a key. Equipaking comment on you. I said I like things to be chunky, and you didn't. I was not body shaming you.

5:09 You are perfect just the way you ask. That's why it didn't even occur to me that you were talking exactly. Thank you for coming back to part three of the Menandaz Family. I am excited to hear it. You're happy to get this wrapped up. I bet no. I'm just interested because I really didn't know much about this case before we started, so I'm interested in hearing the rest of the story. Well, I'm going to give this content warning one more time. Today's episode we really do get into deeply into some of the dysfunction in the family. This episode contains discussion of murder, family violence, and allegations of sexual abuse involving minors. Listener discretion is advised. Do you want to give the summary? Sure? In part two, we talked about the build up of family stress that led to the brothers thinking their parents wanted to kill them to keep their family secrets.

5:57 So the brothers struck first, violently killing their pain parents in their Beverly Hills mansion. After the murders, Lyle seemed largely confident and unbothered, but Eric visibly unraveled and sought the help of psychologist Jerome Ozeal. He confessed to Ozell, who had been taping the session. After six months of extravagant spending and making plans for their new lives, Lyle and Eric were arrested after the police were tipped off by Ozell's mistress, Judelan Smith. Before their trial, began. Lyle and Eric decided to confess to their family they had killed Kitty and Jose, but only after sustaining years of mental, physical, and sexual abuse. Their attorneys made a pivotal decision to use this as their defense. The strength of the state's case largely hinged on whether the taped confession would be allowed as evidence. The trial unfolded just as Court TV launched and the rise of the twenty four hour news cycle, ushering in an era of true crime as entertainment. America and much of the world became captivated by the Menendez brothers trial.

7:03 In July nineteen ninety three, nearly four years after Kitty and Jose's murders, the trial began. The brothers were tried together, although there were two juries because the state had had different evidence against each brother, but they both faced the death penalty. On July eighth, nineteen ninety three, seven women and five men were sworn in as the jury for Lyle Menendez. One week later, a separateury was seated for Eric, made up of six women and six men. Judge Stanley Weisberg presided over the trial. He became a household name in LA after the nineteen ninety three Rodney King trial, and years earlier, he had presided over the McMartin preschool trial during the Satanic Panic of the nineteen eighties. Do you remember this? We covered that in an episode briefly.

7:53 That was one of the longest trials in US history. Do you remember how long? No? I don't. Do you want to take again? Yes? Like, I don't know eight months? No, it was two and a half over two and a half years. Prosecutors Pam Bozanitch and Luster Kuriyama argued the case for the state, with Leslie Abramson and Jill Lansing representing the brothers. More than a dozen Menendez family members testified, including cousins and an aunt. They paid a consistent picture of Jose as harsh, controlling, and frightening. Behind closed doors, they described a man who demanded absolute obedience and used humiliation and intimidation as tools of discipline. Family members were called being uncomfortable around him, watching the boy's shrink in his presence, and sensing that the household operated under a constant threat of punishment. Kitty, they said, was emotionally unstable, deeply unhappy, prone to rage, and she became increasingly dependent on medication over time. From their perspective, the home wasn't nurturing. It was tense and unpredictable.

8:59 Now do you know if any of these relatives that testified were on Jose's side as well as Kitty's side, or was it just one side of the thing. It was both sides. Remember we talked about this in the last episode, but all but two relatives Kitty's brothers were completely in support of the brothers. Craig Signorelli, one of Eric's closest friends, testified that Eric confided in him about sexual abuse by his father years before the murders, not once, but multiple times. He described Eric as terrified, ashamed, and desperate, talking about the abuse in hushed conversations that felt more like confessions than accusations. Donovan good Row, Lyle's friend who had secretly lived in his dorm room, testified.

9:41 Despite previously telling journalists Robert Rand and Lyle's attorney Jill Lansing, that Lyle had confided in him about abuse by his father, Donovan denied it on the witness stand, shocking Lyle's attorney. This journalist, Robert Rand, we talked about him. I think in the first episode his book was one of my primary sources for these episodes, and he is very invested in the case. He's very supportive of the brothers and he has met with them numerous times. He knows them well, he knows the story better than anyone. So he had sat down with Donna van Goodrou when he had a tape of this interview with him. When he says, yet he told me many times that he had been abused by his father.

10:22 It's really shocking that they would change there, that he would change his testimony. Then yeah, But. Robert Rand had an audio tape of the interview, and Lyle's attorney, Jail Lansing, knew it. Rand had unintentionally done what every journalist tries to avoid. He'd become part of the story. To avoid being subpoenad he decided to play the tape on a local news channel that night. Then he was forced to hand over his tape of the Gaudreaux interview. The prosecution wanted him to be banned from the courtroom in case he might have to testify later, but the judge allowed him to return to continue reporting on the trial as a journalist. So this event was really stressful to him. Because he knew that Donovan Goodrow was lying, because he'd not only had discussions with him personally, but he had also talked to Jill Lancing about it too.

11:10 So it was odd that he would deny knowing this. Very odd and I can see as a journalist that puts you in a very awkward situation because when you're a journalist, you want to protect your sources, and you know you can report on things that they say, but you're not. You don't want to reveal them. Yeah, you don't want to have to testify under oath about it. How much do you remember about Jerry o'zel or Jerome o'zeel. I remember he was pretty shady as a psychotherapist and that he was having an affair with this Judelan Smith, and she lived with he and his wife for a period of time. Yeah, very very strange situation. So when he took the stand, he appeared to the jury as a key prosecution witness. He was an esteemed psychologist and he would be on the stand for six exhausting days and by the end of his testimony, Leslie Abramson would say to the judge, I'm frankly sort of sick of him, but without o'zell there wouldn't have been a recorded confession and possibly no arrests.

12:05 Under Leslie's relentless cross examination, his image began to fracture, and she was brutal. She portrayed o'zell as a man driven by ego, self interest, and fear. Abramson worked to establish him as self important, narcissistic, ethically compromised, and profoundly unreliable, more concerned with self preservation than with any genuine duty or regard to his patients, his family, or even his girlfriend. Clearly distasteful to the jury. O'zell portrayed Judelan Smith as unhinged and obsessed with him, despite evidence that he had strung her along for months. Allegedly, he threatened Judelan, telling her that if she didn't stay quiet, he would inform the brothers that she had heard their confession and then they would come after her. So I listened to a fair amount of his testimony, and I made the hard decision not to play any clips for you guys. But the whole trial is out there on YouTube. Just click around.

13:01 It's on Court TV. But there's some people have edited some of the testimonies. So you can only watch like key points of it, but he clearly comes off as as slimy. That does not surprise me much at all. Now, the tape that he had of Eric confessing that was allowed in the trial, right. Parts of it were, and so and it wasn't just Derek, it was Lyle and Eric. Oh that's right. So really their defense team they really needed to attack him and really tear his image down so that they could imply that these confessions were like that he kind of coerced. Them, or that he was heavily involved. Yeah, okay, the jury didn't have to like o'zell or even fully believe him because there were the tapes. The covert recorded confessions became the prosecution's most powerful evidence, but the defense was never there to argue who killed Jose and Kitty. They were there to argue why. And once those tapes were played, the defense shifted its focus, calling psychologists, relatives, friends, and other witches who testified not about one night in August, but about years of Menenda's family dysfunction that they had witnessed firsthand. On August sixteenth, about five weeks into the trial, the defense took over Their strategy centered on a concept called imperfect self defense. This defense doesn't mean that a killing was justified. It means someone genuinely believed they were in immediate danger of being killed or seriously harmed, even if that belief wasn't reasonable or supported by facts. Under the law, that belief doesn't excuse a homicide, but it

14:33 can reduce it. That was the heart of the defense's argument, not that Lyell and Eric were legally justified, but that years of abuse and control had distorted how they perceived the threat, so when the confrontation happened, they genuinely believed their lives were in danger, even if they actually weren't. The defense wasn't trying for an acquittal, although that would be welcome, They knew it was very unlikely. They were hoping for involuntary manslaughter. Weisberg was not a fan of the direction Abramson was headed. In fact, he was frequently exasperated with her aggressive style. The fact that there was Mola's station doesn't constitute a legal defense, he said. When she wanted to introduce evidence of the pattern of abuse in both Kitty and Jose's families. Leslie Abramson was widely regarded as one of the most talented and formidable defense attorneys in the country, admired for her courtroom skilled and feared for her aggressiveness, even as her methods often drew controversy.

15:31 Her combative approach and frequent objections led to repeated warnings in tense exchanges during the trial from the judge. Jill Lansing, who represented Lyle, was a contradiction measured, gentle and thoughtful in her approach. The judge at some points was accused of being misogynistic because he was actually really hard on Jill too interesting. The prosecution called some of Lyle's friends and former girlfriends, who described him as intense, controlling at times, but also fiercely protective of Eric. One girlfriend recalled Lyle telling her that his father was cruel and that he felt trapped under Jose's control. Others talked about Lyle's anger towards his parents not sudden or opportunistic, but long standing.

16:13 Coaches and teachers were also called. One tennis coach, Charles Wadlington. Remember the boys had had over fifty tennis coaches, so Charles Wadlington said of Jose, he was what I consider the worst parent of the people that I had ever coached, and most of the high achieving students parents were demanding, but he took it a step further. He was the harshest person I ever met. He also mentioned that Kitty was unusually sarcastic and hostile, always withholding and stern with her sons. He couldn't recall ever seeing a smile on her face. The schedule Lyle and Eric were expected to maintain was brutal and untenable. When their coach was later asked why he continued working with them despite disagreeing with Jose's demands, he said he stayed because he cared deeply about the boys and found he was often the only friend they had.

17:02 Oh, that was really sad. Coaches said Lyle wasn't allowed to socialize freely with other kids, and that his interactions were shaped by his father's expectations, reinforcing the picture of an upbringing that was tightly controlled. Lyle's sixth grade teacher testified that Jose once arrived very late after ten thirty PM to a parent teacher conference at the school, and when she tried to leave, he accosted her, demanding the conference that he was due. He told her, my son can do better, and you will make sure that he will. Oh boy. Another teacher called Kitty and Jose problem parents, although she found Kitty less unpleasant to deal with than her husband. This is why I would not want to be a teacher. Yeah, these people are so demanding of the Could you mention ten thirty at night and you're still expected to give a parent teacher conference? And was probably because he was really late. Lyle and Eric were described as outwardly successful, good students, talented athletes, but emotionally brittle. Eric in particular was remembered as anne anxious and fragile, prone to stomach pain and stress related illnesses. Several witnesses said it seemed like the pressure at home was constant, unrelenting, and far beyond what they saw in other families, and the stress may have caused Lyle's premature balding. Remember the two pays right as they made him wear. I did a little research about male pattern baldness. I was really curious why Lyle seemed to lose his hair but Eric still has a full head of hair, because I thought if your brother was bald, you would be just as likely to be bald. It's actually not the case. Really, you only share fifty percent of your DNA with brothers, and I

18:35 mean it's more likely if your brother's bald that you'll be bald. But it's not that uncommon. Yeah, and Lyle's hair loss I thought could have been because of stress. But if you have stress related hair loss, it's not the same as male pattern baldness. And he did have, I guess started with a bald spot on the back of his head, where stress related hair loss tends to be more just hair loss, exactly thinning of the hair, and you would retain most of your hairline, and once the trigger is removed, your hair might grow back. What made a lot of these witnesses stand out was that these accounts weren't coming from hired experts or retrospective analysis. They came from people who had heard these fears in real time years earlier, without knowing where the story would end.

19:20 Their testimony didn't offer a clean narrative or easy answers, but it made one thing hard to ignore. The brothers fear of their parents did not begin the night they picked up their guns. It's interesting you say that, because as I'm listening to this, it also helped to make me feel differently about the case too, because we discussed it in part two. But for me, I really had the question of whether the brothers were using some of these allegations as an excuse, whether they were making some of them up after the fact. And hearing like all these people that testified about this happening, it really does. It does make a difference. And it paints a picture that these kids weren't in the happiest of home. And you know, if a teacher is seeing it, and multiple teachers are seeing coaches they had first hand accounts, So yeah, it does make it more real. We'll be back after a break. I try not to talk about the trials too much, but in this case, so much of the evidence came out at the trial.

20:22 Yeah, it sounds like it. On September tenth, it was Lyle's turn to testify and try to convince the jury that he and Eric were victims of sexual abuse. He was on the witness stand for nine days. Lyle, now twenty five, claimed that he killed his parents because he was sure they were planning to kill him and Eric. It was hard to understand him at times. Through his tears. He explained that his father held him to a higher standard than his brother because he believed he had more potential. Lyles's emotional, disturbing testimony gripped the jury and the whole courtroom. Many cried along with him. He had been sexually abused by his father from ages six to eight. It started as fondling and progressed to oral sex and beyond. Lyle said his mother was never nurturing, and even when he was very young, she told him she hated him and that he ruined her life. When he was born, she insisted on bathing him, touching his genitals until age thirteen, She walked around the house shirtless, asking him if she looked good. The boys slept with Kitty when Jose was out of town, she made them touch her. They didn't realize it was wrong until they were older. Lyle suffered from nurysis until his teen years, and both parents would shame him for it and rub his face in the soiled sheets, refusing to change or wash them. Lyle admitted to inappropriately touching Eric when he was eight and Eric five.

21:46 From the witness stand, he whispered, I'm sorry to his brother. Lyle made it clear that Jose had always cautioned him not to divulge family secrets or he would kill them. Jose would tell him what we'd do is like what soldiers do before they go into battle, to become closer to become warriors. Most people in the courtroom were captivated by Lyle's testimony, but not the prosecutors, who compared it to a performance by Sir Lawrence Olivier during cross examination. The prosecutor was brutal, but Lyle was calm and controlled. That is just so disturbing hearing all of that. It's just really it's hard to hear. I wanted to play clips from the trial, but unless you're really seeing Lyle's face, I don't know if you can get a full picture. And he was emotional on the stand, and there were like a lot of pauses, so I wasn't sure if that would actually give any value to the listener. But I do encourage you to go to YouTube and watch some of the trial. I believe that his testimony was very sincere, but I couldn't help but remember the nine one one call when he was hysterically crying. You know that seemed sincere to me too. Yeah, he was clearly lying on the nine to one one call.

22:56 But he was on the stand for days and days and gave story after story of you know, abuse of like some of it was not as serious as others. But still, yeah, it's heartbreaking, Yeah, heartbreaking. I'm a little surprised that the prosecution was kind of brutal with him. That's a difficult line to walk as a prosecutor. I know they have to try to, you know, basically paint him as a liar, but boy, after that kind of emotional testimony, to get up there and then, you know, be mean to someone on the stand like that. There's something they do at the end of the trial that a lot of people were unhappy with. We'll get there in a few minutes. Eric now twenty two, was up next. He also testified for several days. His close relationship with Leslie Abramson was on display for all to see. Eric said that he had been sexually abused by his father since age six.

23:46 He had names for the four methods of sexual abuse. His father subjected him to knees, nice sex, rough sex, and just sex. He explained that sometimes Jose stuck him in the buttocks with pins and tacks. Meanwhile, the brothers were picked apart in the media. The question remained, was their story of abuse believable or a convenient excuse? The media called this the abuse excuse. A cousin testified that when they were ten and twelve, Eric asked him if his father gave him massages. The cousin also remembered seeing an ominous jar of vassilene in Eric's bedroom. Donovan Goodrow was recalled by the defense, although the tape wasn't played in court. A transcript of his interview with Robert Rand was passed out to jurors, but he claimed that he didn't remember Lyle ever revealing his history of sexual abuse to him. Several psychologists who were experts in the field of childhood trauma who had interviewed the brothers testified that they found them to be credible.

24:48 Leslie Abramson chose to play the tape of Lyle and Eric with Jerome Ozell. The jury heard the secret recordings that Ozell had made in his office, conversations in which Lyle and Eric discussed the killings in their own voices, but the tapes also captured Ozeal himself directing, interrupting, reframing, and steering the sessions to the defense, they sounded less like clean confessions and more like guided conversations, shaped by a man who was frightened, compromised, and controlling the narrative as much as recording it. The testimony of Judelan Smith was long anticipated. She clearly had an axe to grind and wanted to prove what a snake Jerry Ozell was after he tried to paint her as an unhinged, crystal loving fruitcake obsessed with him. Smith also disputed Ozell's insistence that he had never been her therapist. She testified that he had acted as her therapist, something he had denied emphatically, as such a relationship would have crossed serious ethical lines.

25:50 She accused him of hypnotizing and brainwashing her. Unbeknownst to Ozeal, Judelan had been taping their conversations. In one interesting exchange, he said, there's fourteen million dollars involved. She replied, so figure it out. Ozell said so, the implication there being that ozel was somehow after as much of that fourteen million dollars as he could. I think so. Remember he went to the funeral and he billed them for it, and he was yeah, not a good guy. No. When the prosecutor accused Judelan of being in love with Ozell and wanting to marry him, she disagreed. Doctor Ozell wanted to marry me, not me him. The prosecutor retorted, but you wanted to have children and you indicated to the police. Judelan interrupted, I did not want children that looked like doctor Ozel. The courtroom erupted in a long, much needed laugh. On Friday, December third, nineteen ninety three, at the end of the day, the defense rested. Over the eighty five day trial, there had been one hundred and one witnesses and four hundred and five exhibits. Everyone was exhausted. In her multi day closing argument, Leslie argued that Eric actually didn't kill anyone. Lyle had delivered the fatal shots to both Kitty and Jose.

27:09 Do you remember that. I did not. Remember that the first episode. But the gun was empty and Kitty was still kind of she was still alive, and Lyle had to run out ammunition and he delivered the fatal blow. Yeah. And also when we say that the trial was eighty five days, it wasn't eighty five calendar days. It was you know, working days. Yeah, that is a long time. It's really interesting the fact that they both had different juries. So it's interesting that Leslie Abramson is in a way setting up a bit of a different defense for Eric than Lyle. So it's yeah, in some ways kind of pointing fingers at his brother. But they did work together for the most part.

27:49 Yeah. Prosecutor Lester Kuriama said, if Eric indeed engaged in consensual homosexual activities with other men, that would account for him being able to describe for you the accounts he described to you about sexual encounters with his father. I haven't talked about Eric's sexuality up until this point because I don't think it matters. Some people thought that he was gay, and when he was with his friend Craig Signorelli and they used to take drives along the coast, some people thought that, you know, they were having a sexual relationship, right, I don't think that's anyone's business. At one point, Kitty even thought he was gay and demanded that he get a girlfriend within the next six months.

28:30 So that might have actually increased the tension in the household if nothing else. Well, he did get a girlfriend, and Eric has said that he's not gay. But the fact that this prosecutor said that was just gross, kind of outrageous. Yeah, and people were quite upset about it, understandably, So, yeah, it was a disgusting comment to make. Well, I think it's also implying that if you're gay, you can't be sexually abused, right and really, so, remember there's two juries. Lyle's Jerry had a head startup deliberations, while Leslie gave her closing arguments, But the jury was very divided from the beginning. Both jurys had five potential verdicts, not guilty, first degree murder, second degree murder, voluntary manslaughter, and involuntary manslaughter. The jury spent an unusually long time deliberating behind closed doors. Weeks passed without a verdict. A strong six point seven magnitude earthquake rocked southern California on January seventeenth, causing major damage to the area and killing sixty people. I was just curious because we hear, you know that those numbers all the time, and a seven point zero is considered a major earthquake, So six point seven is still, you know, a very very strong I know, I don't remember that happening.

29:47 That's really sad. So the jury paused for a week to deal with the aftermath of this earthquake. I think there was damage even to the courthouse and the jail. The Lyles jury deliberated for twenty five days, while a jury deliberated for nineteen days before both reported that they were hopelessly deadlocks. Eric's jury was divided along gender lines. The six men voted for murder and the six women for manslaughter. Well, it's really interesting because when you first talked about the makeup of the jury, my initial thought was, I bet the defense wanted to have as many women on the jury as possible. And why do you think that men would be more likely to vote for murder?

30:27 I know it sounds a little stereotypical, but I just think women are generally more empathetic, and especially when it comes to situations where abuse is involved, I think there's a natural tendency to be a little more understanding. Well, I think that it's really sad that men are more likely to doubt that men other men can be victims of Section Yeah, it is very sad. Judge Stanley Weisberg declared mistrials for both Eric and Lyle on January twenty eighth, nineteen ninety four. Also really interesting that they had two separate juries, neither jury, and they weren't talking to each other, and neither of them could come to the conclusion. In June nineteen ninety four, after his infamous bronco chase on live TV, OJ Simpson was arrested for the murder of his ex wife, Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend Ron Goldman. He was taken to the La County Jail and placed in the cell next to Eric Menendez. They weren't strangers. Years earlier, Simpson had visited the Menendez home and thrown a football around with the boys after Jose hired him as a spokesman for Hurtz. Remember, Jose used.

31:33 To riks, that's really wild. Eric tried to coach OJ on how to be a prisoner, how to work the system, how to deal with the guards. But the reality was that Simpson was treated like royalty. His cell door remained open, he was allowed a phone, he was given special food. Guards stopped by all day to ask him for his autograph. Lyle too became friendly with OJ. Lyle was being kept in a separate I'm not sure it was a building or a separate area. Yle advised OJ to accept a plea deal, but OJ did not want to damage his good guy image with the public. But OJ is really happy. He did not listen to Lyle. So when journalist Robert Rand asked if Lyle thought that OJ was guilty, he said absolutely. He knew Eric and I and he trusted us. So I think Eric is implying that OJ admitted to killing Nicole Brown, Simpson and Ron Goldwy Well.

32:23 He kind of admitted to almost everybody in that book, he wrote, So yeah, it wouldn't be at all surprised. In June nineteen ninety, Lyle began receiving letters from a woman named Norma Novelli, a fifty somethingter British expatriate. She came to see him in jail several times a week, and the pair also talked many nights on the phone for months. It was not a romantic relationship on Lyle's part, but Norma seemed fixated on him. However, unbeknownst to Lyle, she recorded their conversations. Later, she released a book, The Private Diary of Lyle Menandez, with transcripts of their calls. That's really low. Yeah, Despite the way the tapes were later portrayed in the media. There weren't really any bombshells or confessions or hidden revelations about the murders. What emerged most clearly was Lyle himself alternately guarded and emotional and often arrogant, especially in the confidence he expressed about his ability to win over a jury. I could only find the audio version of this book, and it was really hard to understand, so I didn't listen to most of it. But Lyle was very confident about the testimony that he delivered, and I watched a fair amount of it, and he was very convincing. If I had to compare Lyle's testimony to Eric's testimony, I think Lyle definitely delivered a better story to the jury, and he did it in a really convincing way, where Eric, I think, was just so nervous.

33:48 He kind of fell apart under the pressure a little more so. In these tapes. To Norma, he was like saying, well, you know, I really nailed it with the jury, and he really did well. That almost makes it sound like he was acting though, or that he was kind of admitting to the right that he was acting a little bit. It kind of sounds that way, but in the actuality, I think he was just saying no, I did a good job. The prosecutor tried but failed to have these tapes admitted in the second trial as evidence, as they were recorded without his permission. So interest in the Menenda's brothers waned before the start of the second trial. In August nineteen ninety five, Court TV chose not to carry the trial live. They'd moved on to other high profile trials such as Heidi Flice, the Hollywood Madam, and OJ Simpson.

34:33 Lyell and Eric were out of money. Lyle would be represented by a public defender, Charles Gessler. Leslie Abramson agreed to stay on as Eric's attorney for the public defender rate offered by the state one hundred and twenty five thousand dollars annually. So did they inherit the money if from their parents. Or they they didn't. I'm guessing that the money was probably pre right until after the trial. Yeah, I guess that makes sense. I'm going to make this a lot briefer than I did during the first trial. Judge Weisberg again presided over the trial. The brothers were tried together, but this time only one jury would hear the case. Lyle twenty seven and Eric twenty four had shed their sweaters for more mature attire for this trial. They now arrived in court in shirts and ties. I don't think I talked about that, but during the first trial they were both they look very preppy every day, and I think that was Leslie's idea to try to make them look younger and I.

35:27 Surprising though, kind of seems like it would make them look like, you know, sort of entitled. Right, And I think that's exactly what it did. So I think they probably should have just worn suitentized in the first trial too. People described the trials as night and day. Prosecutors insisted that Lyle and Eric's claims of child sexual abuse were fabrications, and argued that the defense had not laid a sufficient legal foundation to use those allegations to support a self defense theory. The judge ultimately agreed, ruling that much of the abuse related testimony and expert evidence present resented in the first trial would be limited or excluded. As a result, large portions of the brother's defense were stripped away in the second trial, dramatically narrowing what the jury was allowed to hear and weakening the defense's overall case. Another major change in the second trial was the exclusion of doctor Jeromo Wasiel's testimony, which had played a central role in the first trial.

36:22 That's a really big blow to the defense because that was the old foundation of their exactly. Wow, and you have to wonder what the judge's intention is here, right. Yeah. The trial began in late September nineteen ninety five. The jury was composed of seven men and five women, and I'm because of what happened during the first trial, I'm surprised that they let this fly that there were more men than women. Just a few days into the trial, a jury acquitted oj Simpson of killing Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. Leslie felt this was a bad sign for the Menendez brothers. The DA would be out for blood. Embarrassed by this loss. Although Oziel didn't testify, some of the confession tape was played. Lyle was heard saying it took quote courage beyond belief to murder Kitty and Jose and quote there was no way I was going to kill my parents without Eric's consent. Amir Brian as Laminia, a high school friend, of Eric's became a key figure in the prosecution's efforts to undermine the defense narrative of self defense. Amir's brother, Reza Islaminia, had been a member of the infamous Billionaire Boys Club and was convicted for the nineteen eighty murder of their father. Prosecutors introduced a jail house letter that Lyle wrote to Brian or Emir in July nineteen ninety one, in which Lyle allegedly outlined exactly how Islaminia should testify, specifically that the brothers had asked him for a handgun for protection from their parents in the days before the killings. As Laminia said later

37:53 that after receiving the letter, Lyle called him and said, I've changed my mind. You should not test with that story, as the media's account was used by the prosecution to argue that the brothers were capable of manufacturing testimony to support their defense. Yeah, that's not a good look. The prosecution built their case over seven weeks and called thirty witnesses. When the defense took over, Eric testified, but Lyle did not, and you can understand why, because there's all this new information. On January thirty, first, the defense rested after calling twenty five witnesses, less than half of what they'd called during the first trial. It took the jury four days to reach their verdict. On March twenty first, nineteen ninety six, Lyle and Eric Menendez were found guilty of first degree murder, conspiracy to commit murder, as well as two special circumstances lying in wait and multiple murders.

38:44 The same jury decided their penalty. There were two options, only two options, this time, life without parole or death. More testimony from family members and expert witnesses followed. Leslie Abramson came under fire during the penalty phase when psychiatrists doctor William Vickery, who had treated Eric for five years over the course of eighty eight sessions, took the stand. It emerged that the prosecution had a different version of his notes than the defense prosecutors had been given the earlier complete set. Abramson had asked doctor Vickery to delete six sections totaling twenty four pages from his records, which she believed were prejudicial.

39:25 Oh boy, that's not good. No. This revelation stunned the courtroom. Altering medical notes violated professional ethics and raised serious concerns about handling of evidence. Abramson insisted that she had been trying to protect her client, but the damage was done. She was later investigated by the California State bar According to The New York Times, disciplinary charges were ultimately not pursued due to insufficient evidence. The controversy did, however, have real consequences. Leslie was barred from delivering the closing argument in the case. So the jury deliberated, and we're talking about the p penalty phase here. They deliberated for three days before returning with their decision. Life in prison without the possibility of parole for both of the brothers. Eric in particular, was devastated. He reportedly couldn't get out of bed for days after the sentence was read and the years that followed, some jurors would say that if they had been allowed to hear more of the evidence about the long term pattern of abuse inside the Menendez home, that they might not have convicted the brothers a first degree murder. After the sentencing, the media waited for Leslie for her final thoughts. She said, it will never be over for me because I will never sever my ties to Eric Menendez or Lyle Menendez.

40:39 Or their family. We are a large extended family. Now the legal part is over, but the human part continues. That's it, guys, Bye bye farewell. A lot of people have talked about the relationship between Leslie and especially Eric. It was very maternal relationship, and you know, she tried her best, and I think it became almost too personal for her. I think she was a little too close to it. Well, I think, yeah, as a lawyer, you really have to try to maintain some professional separation. I would think. I think she really cared for them and she wanted them to be freed, and it took like a huge emotional impact on her life. Yeah, we'll be back after a break.

41:24 Dominic Dunn was one of the most visible courtroom figures of the era, a society writer turned true crime journalist whose work for Vanity Fair was shaped by personal tragedy, the murder of his daughter, actress Dominique Dunn in nineteen eighty two. When Vanity Fair first put long circulating rumors of sexual abuse into print, the brothers reacted with outrage, Though those allegations would later form the core of their defense. Dunn, however, remained openly skeptical, covering the Menendez trial in nineteen ninety three. He largely viewed the brothers as entitled and Greek, guilty of calculated murder rather than driven by trauma. Though he acknowledged moments of doubt as testimony unfolded, he never fully accepted the abuse narrative, and his reporting helped frame the case as both a murder trial and a cultural spectacle, with his voice among the most influential in shaping public opinion. So, as we've talked about, I didn't really know a lot about this case, but in my consciousness, like obviously I heard about it when it was going on. That was definitely my impression of it. Basically what Dominic Dunne was kind of getting across there that these were two spoiled, greedy, rich kids who were you know.

42:39 Well, I mention him because he did kind of lead the media narrative. He reported a lot in Vanity Fair about this article. I also mentioned him because I'm thinking about doing his daughter's case. He was also portrayed in the movie Monsters. The Menendez case didn't just consume the brothers. It consumed everyone around them, family members, friends, investigators, lawyers, witnesses for years their lives hovered in a kind of suspended animation between Kitty and Jose's murders and the final sentencing, lives were put on hold. Relationships frayed. Detective Zolar, the lead detective in the case, later said the case cost him his marriage and pushed a wedge between him and his children.

43:23 And he wasn't alone. This wasn't a story that stayed neatly inside a courtroom. It reshaped the lives of everyone involved. Doctor Jeromeo Zial's life was never the same. His conduct was scrutinized in open court, his professional reputation badly damaged, and in the years that followed, he surrendered his California psychology license, effectively ending his career as a practicing therapist. Leslie Abramson maintained a lower profile after the case, other than briefly representing Phil Specter in two thousand and four. So I mentioned this because you know, cases like this, they're all consuming, not just for the defendants but everyone involved. Yeah, it takes you know, it took years and years for this to be resolved.

44:06 Right. In April twenty eighteen, Marta Cano invited journalist Robert rand to go through her son's papers rand unearthed the letter written by Eric to Andy in December nineteen eighty eight, nine months before the murders. Sadly, Andy passed away in two thousand and three from an accidental overdose of sleeping pills. He was haunted by the murders and struggled for years to sleep at night. Marta said, I have no doubt in my mind that Andy is dead because of the murders. In the letter, Eric describes the abuse he has suffered from Jose. The letter is a little long, but it reveals who Eric was as a seventeen year old and what he may have been going through. So Marta is Jose's sister and Andy is her son, Eric's cousin.

44:52 Here's the letter. Hello, Andy, how are you doing? I hope better than I am. It's been a long time since we've been in touch. Too long. I wish we could have seen each other during Thanksgiving. We almost did. We were all set to go and then my parents decided not to at the last minute. Mom said the flights are too expensive. She said we could wait until Christmas, but now they've decided I'm playing the Fiesta Bowl and that it's not worth it to fly out for a few days. I was all excited to see you in some high school buddies. But I'll have to wait a little. I guess Mom and Dad have a company party here, and Dad hired people to decorate the whole house and bought a huge tree they brought down from Santa Barbara. Actually they had to bring three because Mom didn't like the way the first few looked. They were pissed. They also decorated the tree. Where's the Christmas spirit in that?

45:41 I remember when Lyle and I used to decorate it. Times change, huh. At least I got to put up my own stocking and one for Rudy and Velvet, who are fine. By the way, Mom guessing that's the dog and the cat. That was my guess too. Mom isn't doing too good. It's like she's here physically, but mentally she's just like gone, if you know what I mean. She freaks out over nothing. I feel bad for her. I don't know why she puts up with Dad's shit. At times, I wish I could talk to her about things, you know, someday, especially Dad and I. But the way she worships him and tells him everything, I'm so afraid that she'll tell him whatever I say. I just can't risk it. Lyle got into a huge fight with her over why we couldn't spend Christmas with the rest of the family, and Mom freaked out and said if he wanted to go, he could go alone. I just don't know why she wants to hurt him like that. Lyle wanted to stay, but Dad wouldn't let him. Now I'm here all alone. I've been trying to avoid Dad. It's still happening, Andy, but it's worse for me now. I can't explain it. He is so overweight that I can't stand to see him.

46:44 I never know when it's going to happen, and it's driving me crazy. Every night I stay up thinking he might come in. I need to put it out of my mind. I know what you said before, but I'm afraid you just don't know Dad like I do. He's crazy. He warned me a hundred times about telling anyone, especially Lyle. Am I a serious wimpus. I don't know if I'll make it through this. I can handle it. Andy. I need to stop thinking about it anyway. I hope you're doing good. How's your new girlfriend, Allison? She sounds pretty great. When do I get to meet her? I can see why you don't want to leave Puerto Rico. I hear you're playing a lot of soccer. That's great. I love soccer too bad. I had to quit. How many tap ups can you do? I'm glad to see that school is easy for you. Sounds a little too easy, though, are you learning? Next year is the important year? Eleventh grade transcripts are what colleges look at. I'm doing okay so far with school. My tennis gets in the way some, but next year is an important year. I think if I do really well in tennis, mom and Dad will ease up some, just in time for me to start college at Brown or Berkeley. Anyway, I'm playing great. We really like our new coach Mark. He beat Lyle six to zero the first time they played. It was so bad Lyle even had to laugh. Well, I'm going to go, buddy, it's getting late and I don't feel well. Keep in touch, Hopefully I'll see you soon. Until then, God bless you and Merry Christmas. I miss you, Love E.

48:11 So what's your impression of Eric after reading this letter? He was seventeen? Really heartbreaking? Just you can just feel like, especially when he's talking about I don't know when my dad is going to come in here, and then also talking about like, oh, if I do good in tennis, you know, maybe they'll ease up on me, and it just it really is makes me really sad to hear that. So when the letter was found, if they were like, this is new evidence, is evidence that Eric was being abused. Right District Attorney Nathan Hawkman, who took office in December twenty twenty four, called the letter not credible evidence because it can't be corroborated by Andy Cano. It's not timely because it was not presented at time of trial. The previous DA George Gascone, who lost his reelection bid to Hawkman, recommended the brothers be re sentenced to fifty years to life, which would make them eligible for parole.

49:02 For years, journalist Robert rand suspected there was a deeper connection between Jose Menendez and Menudo Anuda. Remember when we talked about Menudo and how he did seemingly have this obsession with them, that's right. After years of interviews with more than one hundred former members of the group, Roy Rosello came forward in the Peacock documentary Menendez plus Menudo Boys betrayed, alleging that Jose Menendez sexually assaulted him while he was at RCA. Jose invited him to his house when he was just fourteen years old. Rosello said that after Jose gave him a glass of wine, he became drowsy and lost muscle control. Jose took him into a private room and Rory doesn't remember anything after that. Later, he woke up in his hotel room in tremendous pain leading badly from his anus, and it happened again before and after a Menudo performance at Radio City Music Hall.

49:57 Roy Rosello was also featured in an episode of forty eight Hours the Menanda's Brothers Fight for Freedom. The band's former manager, at Gardo Diaz, is also accused of sexually assaulting band members, including Roy. He said that he was forced to share our room with Diaz when Minuno traveled parents weren't allowed to go on tour. Rosello filed a lawsuit against Diaz in twenty twenty five. Wow, So I. Watched this four part series on Peacock and it's super disturbing. I did make a mistake here too, and I said there were more than one hundred former members of the group. I think there's been like fifty members of the group. But what Edgardo Diaz would do is he would audition boys at his home. So there were a lot of other victims too of his Yeah.

50:45 So so so awful. It's so disturbing. And they set these poor boys up, a lot of them. You know. It came from families that were financially struggling, and they thought this was their big opportunity. And this scumbag Diaz guy would say, well, the parents can't come. You can't you know, there's not enough money, there's not enough room, whatever it is to do. And they were excited for their boys. You know, this is such a good opportunity. Yeah, and it was, you know the boys and Roy especially, he'll break your heart if you watch this show. You know, he just talks about the abuse and it was it was long term abuse. And Edgardo would he had to share a room with him like they would. There was always you know, five members of the band, and they would get to you know, two boys would share a room, two boys would share another room, and that it was usually the youngest member would have to share at Gardo's room with him, so it was just so disturbing. Roy Rosello's revelation, along with Andy Cano letter, prompted Lyla and Eric's attorneys they have new attorneys now to file a writ of habeas corpus in May twenty twenty three, requesting that their sentences be vacated, citing the new evidence that they said supported their long standing claims of abuse. Along with shifting public attitudes about male sexual abuse and growing support from TikTok creators and a younger generation, the brothers had reason to feel hopeful again.

52:06 Defense attorneys requested that the brother's convictions and sentences be vacated, re at a minimum, that the court allow a new evidentiary hearing based on Roy Rossello's accusations, but the hope was short lived. In twenty twenty five, a Los Angeles judge rejected the habeas petition, ruling that the evidence did not meet the legal standard required to overturn their convictions or grant a new trial. However, in May twenty twenty five, another judge resentenced Lyle and Eric to fifty years to life, making them eligible for parole for the first time. The decision was based on California's youth offender parole laws, which recognized that people who commit crimes before the age of twenty six are still developmentally immature and may have a greater capacity for change. In August twenty twenty five, at their first parole hearings, they were both denied release. The board pointed to their disciplinary records and concluded that they still posed an unreasonable risk to public safety. They could possibly be out for parol again as soon as twenty twenty seven.

53:11 How old are the brothers at this point? I think they're fifty five and fifty eight right now. The Menenda's brothers received as many as one thousand letters a week, especially when they were first in jail. Many came from women expressing romantic interest, sometimes including provocative photos, but many others were from abuse survivors. Lyle married Anna Ericsson on July first, nineteen ninety six, the same day as their sentencing, but he called it the happiest day of his life. They divorced in two thousand and one after she discovered that Lyle had been writing letters to other women and engaging in phone sex. He's been married to Rebecca snead since two thousand and three. People magazine reported recently, though, that they have been separated for some time, and Lyle was involved with twenty one year old college student named Millie Bucksy from Manchester, England.

54:05 I'm not sure how you define being separated when one of the spouses is in prison. Yeah. True. So Eric has been married to his wife, Tammy since nineteen ninety nine. She was married when she initially wrote to Eric, but her husband took his own life after she turned him into police for sexually assaulting her fifteen year old daughter. I know what you're probably wondering. Conjugal visits are not allowed for prisoners with life sentences. I hadn't actually been wondering that, but how that you say it, it's good to know. In September nineteen ninety six, the brothers were separated and sent to different prisons. They didn't see each other for over twenty years. Finally, in April twenty eighteen, they were reunited, and today they remain at the same prison, Richard J.

54:48 Donov in a correctional facility in San Diego, California. They see each other every day. They eat their meals together and exercise together. Regularly. The brothers keep busy in prison. They've earned multiple degrees. They mentor other prisoners, especially sexual abuse survivors. They worked to beautify the prison and spearheaded the painting of a one thousand foot mural of California. Lyle has participated in many leadership roles, including prison government, while Eric has focused on his art, painting several hours a day, but both do have disciplinary records, including drug use and illegal cell phone possession. The cell phone possession charges were somewhat recent, but the drug charges were from years ago. We're almost done. In twenty twenty four, Ryan Murphy and Ian Brennan produced a highly stylized satirical mini series for Netflix based on the Menendez brothers called Monsters.

55:41 The series reignited public fascination with the brothers and introduced their story to a new generation. It also reopened long standing debates about abuse, guilt, and motive. Monsters took liberties with the facts, compressing timelines, heightening personalities, and leaning into spectacle, prompting both renewed and bethy for the brothers and fresh criticism from those who felt the portrayal distorted the facts. Eric released the following statement after the show aired, I believe we had moved beyond the lies and ruinous character portrayals of Lyle, creating a character of Lyle rooted and horrible and blatant lies rampant in the show. I can only believe they were done so on purpose. It is with a heavy heart that I say, I believe Ryan Murphy cannot be this naive and inaccurate about the facts of our lives so as to do this without bad intent.

56:29 Leslie Abramson called it a piece. Of shit a little more blunt. The brothers were excoriated by the media and popular culture, spoofed on Saturday Night Live, and turned into fodder for late night comedians, reduced to characters of spoiled, greedy, rich kids rather than examined as complicated young men emerging from a profoundly dysfunctional home. I probably shouldn't admit this, but I actually enjoyed Monsters. It was over the top, and the opening scenes are exactly how I pictured Lyle and Eric during the time, like these spoiled rich cas kids with you know, there's sunglasses on all the time, and just respectful and you know it's not accurate. It's not intended to be accurate, but you know, they do play loosely with the facts.

57:11 Yeah, And well, when you're making a show like that and you're actually using the real names of real people involved, right, it bothers me. Right, it's deeply, deeply hurtful to them, and they're complicated victims. And yeah, for sure. But I did watch it on one point five speed because it's nine episodes, so I think I missed some of the nuance and some of the scenes depict an incestuous relationship, which. Like a consensual relationship. Yeah, and that's disturbing and not at all based on facts, So I can understand why they did not enjoy that. Wrapping some things up here, Judelan Smith sued jerome o'zial for beating, drugging, raping, and kidnapping her. The case was ultimately settled out of court, with Smith reportedly receiving between four hundred and five hundred thousand dollars from his malpractice insurance.

58:01 Oziel maintained that they were never in a relationship. Two women who had once worked as nanny's for the Oziel family described relationships they had with Jerry that gave credibility to Judelan's account. Speaking to ABC's Primetime Live, the women said that they had been involved with him romantically during the nineteen eighties. They portrayed him as controlling and emotionally abusive, and alleged that he had provided them with prescription medications and manipulated them psychologically. And he said that his career was basically over after this whole thing. His license he didn't have. Well I don't think I said this, but his license was actually suspended when he was with Eric and Lyle. Oh really so, yeah, but I think he had to relinquish his license, and I think I'm not sure what he's doing today, But after this case, I think he moved out of California to Arizona. Yeah, and he did like some therapy for married couples or something like that. Do you remember mister Buffalo Lyle's restaurant.

59:01 Oh? Yeah, it was sold after his conviction and they changed the name back to Chuck's Spring Street Cafe, where it remains today. In May of twenty twenty six, I believe additional episodes of the Menudo documentary are going to be released. He must have had more victims that were ready to come forward. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. It sounds like there were a lot. Do you know who the most famous member of Manuda was. I don't. I'm sure I'll know it when you say it, but. No, Ricky Martin. Of course, he was very young and allegedly he has never come forward, but allegedly he was abused by Edgardo Diaz and also potentially Jose Menendez. Wo.

59:41 Robert Rand sat Ricky Martin down and had a conversation with him, and I don't feel comfortable talking about it. But Robert Rand talks about it in this Menudo documentary. But Ricky Martin, what he told him was in confidence and so he can't really talk about it other but he's implying that, Yeah, he's impl something happened. Yeah, the whole thing is just so disturbing. Yeah, it's the whole Menudo thing and young boys being sexually abused. You know, there's so many boy bands out there, and I know that there is, you know, more abuse that young boys don't. Want to talk about. And all of these boy bands were arranged by other people, right, so it's there are people in controlling them in a lot of ways. So you can totally see how that could happen.

1:00:26 Research suggests that at least one in six boys experienced sexual abuse before the age of eighteen. And Yeah, for decades, abuse of boys has been profoundly under recognized. Boys are less likely to be believed, less likely to disclose, and more likely to be met with silence, minimization, or shame. There's so much shame and sexual abuse for both men and women, but I think especially young boys really suffer. Yeah, and there's not as many places for them to go. Yeah, for sure, hopefully that's changing a little bit, but I'm sure it's still we have a long way to go. We'll think of all the abuse that has gone on in churches throughout the year and boy Scouts, and you know all. Of those and a lot of that was covered up for so long. Rest in peace to Kitty and Jose What a complicated story.

1:01:09 This is very complicated. Well what do you think, oh, boy? Like you said, it's a complicated story. And you know, we talked about it already, but I didn't. I didn't have much of an impression going into it. But the impression I did have was spoiled rich kids after their parents' money. And I don't think that anymore. I still think what they did was wrong and they should have been punished for it. But no one is saying they shouldn't be punished for it. Right, But I do think there is a lot of mitigating circumstances there, and I don't I don't think they deserve life in prison without parole. So you believe that they were sexually abused. Oh totally. I totally believe that now, especially so after hearing all the people that testified. But then the letter, the letter to Andy, I mean, I know Andy wasn't alive to be able to corroberate.

1:01:54 Some people do say, oh, that letter is convenient. Could could Eric have written the letter and ailed it like after the murders, you know, and Aunt Martha, you know, covered it up. And yeah, I suppose it's possible, but it sure sounds sounded like a seventeen year old wrote that letter to me. But welthough, that's the point though, like he could have written it like when he was eighteen, not when he was in his forties or whatever. I get it. But I just feel like there's enough, there's enough evidence there that they were abused that I'm I'm convinced. I agree too, because my impression was also like, Okay, you have money, you have resources, you had cars, why didn't you leave? But I do believe if they had left that Jose would have found them. Yeah, he would have hold believe them.

1:02:36 He was a powerful guy and also seemed like he was kind of vengeful, so it would not it surprised me at all if he had. How do you view Kitty? Do you view her as a victim, an enabler or both both? Yeah? I think she probably was a victim in some ways, but I think she also was I think she also wasn't enabler and or how else to put it? But yeah, she let a lot of things happen. But I don't know, it's just we talked about it, I think in after part one. But there's like, I don't know where you draw the line between being like I had a horrible upbringing and you know, so that's why I do the things I do, versus taking responsibility for your own actions. I think it's really difficult to draw that line.

1:03:17 Does it bother you that Kitty died as well, that they killed her? Do you think that she it bothers me that they both died? Like, I don't think either of them deserved to die, right. I think she was less culpable than Jose was in the things that were done to Lyle and Eric, but neither of them deserve to die. I guess what I mean is that, you know, jose was the one who posed the biggest threat to them, right, And had she been alive, they wouldn't have inherited the money. She would have inherited the money. So if you have any doubt about, you know, the sexual abuse, then you could say, well, that's why Kitty had to die. Yeah, that's a good point. Are you surprised that the brothers had so much support from their family a little bit? Yeah, that sounds like it made you more convinced abuse happened.

1:04:00 Yeah, it did, because normally you would think the family would be pretty much universally against them. But the fact that they supported them tells me that they also knew that something was not right in the family. Something that gives me pause, though, is that a lot of the cousins went and spent a lot of time at the Menenta's home during the summers. And if there was if everyone knew that there was abuse going on, why would you send kids there? Yeah? Unless it was just the fun house because they had a pool and a tennis court and they had more money. Yeah, it could be. Are you surprised that the brothers didn't turn on each other? So we talked about how Leslie said that it was really lile right that killed both of his parents. Yeah, it seemed like the brother like they had an interesting relationship. It sounds like Lyle viewed himself as maybe Eric's protector in some way. But it seems like I think in situations like that, if they're both being they're both in a similar situation with their upbringing, and I would imagine you get closer together with your brother when you're both in that situation. So it doesn't surprise me that they didn't turn on each other.

1:05:03 I think Eric had a lot of guilt because he was the one that confessed to doctor o'zell and he he kind of fell apart after the murders, and I think he had some guilt because of that. Yeah, I'm sure he did. I wonder do you think they would have been arrested and tried if he. Hadn't That's the question. I think they eventually would have been. I would think so take a lot of they said they committed the perfect crime. They really did. We talked about this a lot, like they really just kind of got lucky. Yeah. If the Menanda's brothers had been the Menenda's sisters, would the outcome be different. Do you think that they would be more believed as victims of sexual abuse? Yeah? I hadn't really thought about that, but now that you say it, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if they were believed more if that played into it more so.

1:05:49 I felt like the second trial was really unfair because they limited the defense's scope so much. What do you think about that? Do you think the judge was out for blood? I don't know what the judge's motivation was, but I completely agree with you. It doesn't seem fair at all that you're not allowed to introduce that sort of you know, mitigating circumstances like, yes, we did kill them, but here's why I would think the jury should be allowed to hear that. And I don't know the judge. It makes me think, you know, because it was the same judge. He just didn't want another mistrial and so he wanted, you know, a conclusion. And you said this was right after the oj trial team. Yeah, and it sounds silly, but I do think that those things were linked, and it wasn't long after like the Rodney King stuff, and so there were just a lot of things pressure. Yeah, that was making the state look like they weren't doing a good job.

1:06:37 I hate to be cynical and feel like there's a conspiracy, but it does sort of feel that way that they were really wanted to make sure they were going to get a conviction. But you know, they work and they did murder their parents, you know for sure. So I was able to change your mind about this case, you were, and. It sounds like you kind of changed your mind over the course of researching it as well. Yeah, what is your sense of public opinion in general on this? I feel like at this point, most people are okay with them being released from prison. They've done their time, they've been in prison for over thirty five years, and they don't see them as a threat. But you know, some people are like, no, they killed their parents, and they killed their parents for money, and you know.

1:07:17 I know some people take a very black and white view of that kind of thing, like, hey, you killed somebody, you need to be in prison for the rest of your life. I've yeah, I do sometimes. Yeah, something like this case is a little more nuanced. And I say this a lot, but I'm going to mention it warmer time here. It's okay if you disagree with us, right, it's okay if you look at the evidence in your life. Experience takes you to a different place than where we ended up. We don't always have to agree on everything. Yeah, well that is the story of Eric and lyele Menandez. I am sorry, but I am going to have to call HR again again. And he's called HR meets so many times.

1:07:57 I know, but you've been shirking. I didn't have a frosty soda. It is after my working hours. I'm here after eight pm. We never finalized, not gone. Into the bathroom. I have not got that time. Knew I could. You could have had a break anytime. You could just allowed get tell by the look on your face that you would not allow it. So yeah, well we never actually finished our labor negotiations for this year. So you know, I don't think your accusations are going to hold up in the court of lot. Sorry, all right, I know you just finished a three parter with Oscar Pastorias book Man they're kind of exhausting. Does take a lot out of you because it's it's an in depth, you know, research that you have to do, and there's a lot of that goes in.

1:08:44 I really kind of enjoy doing it. I don't think we've talked about it before, like, if we could, we would love to do seven part, eight part, nine part episodes. Well no, I just mean, like, you know, to go out into the field and do research. Do a little bit more of a yeah, like deep dive first first, you know, person account of a case exactly. Yes, I think we would both enjoy that. But it always surprises me that I think we agree most of the time we do. It's almost like we share our brain. Well, I know, because at the end of that episode you were talking about it's okay if you disagree with us. It occurred to me that we hardly ever disagree with each other once. About this stuff. We agree on plenty of disagree on plenty of other things. Yeah, exactly, but yeah, and this and these cases, I can't think of one that we've really strongly disagreed on.

1:09:30 I think there are a couple that we had maybe slightly different, like you might have felt a little strong urb or less, but. Well, like some of the cases are impossible, like Rebecca's. How yeah, Like that's one that I always think about, Like, I wish we knew more. Sometimes we just don't have enough information, right, or enough research or not research, but you know, evidence at the scene of the crime. Yeah, I think a lot of times when it ends up with a case like that, especially, all I can say is I don't know. I mean, I really wish I knew, but I just I think there are people out there, Like I listened to some other podcasts that, you know, they have strong. Other podcasts are you listening to I have. In my past Before we started our podcast, I did listen to a few other podcasts, and it always strikes me, how, you know, some podcasters have really strong opinions. I'm like, how can you have that strong of an opinion?

1:10:17 Like you's just us though I think in general we're kind of you can you can if you have a good argument, you can convince me. I'm never too proud to be like, yeah, it's your point. Yeah, and something's not not all things? Yeah, all right. We don't know the results of the Super Bowl because it's January twenty ninth, when we're recording this, Well. We know the results because I already told you that they're going. To be that's right, that's right. I forgot about that. You're so smart. But I feel bad for you because it's it's the dark season still, and there's no there's no college football, there's no baseball. Everything is all over over, everything in one game. No reason to get out of that in the morning. I'm not a basketball fan. I do like hockey, but I don't really watch hockey very often at all. Maybe if like the Red Wings make the playoffs. But yeah, in general, from now until April, it's a tough time.

1:11:08 You have to spend time with your wife. I don't know. Yeah, jeez, yeah, that's rough. Shut up. You know lucky you are, mister. Oh wait, no, I meant I love spending time with you. Yeah. Of course we need some new shows to watch, so if you guys have recommendations for us, yeah, because we don't have anything to talk about. So we watched shows, and I think anyone who's been married for more than six or seven hours relate to that. Well, we really enjoyed Pluribus, but that really even one ended, but that was really it was. A good mix for me, and you liked it too. Not everyone likes it though. Not everyone likes it, but there was to me. It had some humor in it, but it was also serious, but it gave you a lot to talk about, Like you could after you watch it, you could talk for hours about what does what does that mean? What does this mean?

1:11:57 And I think about this all the time, Like if something like that were to happen, like in apocalypse, like how will I react? Right? I think that's why a lot of people like shows like that, because it's like you put yourself in the shoes of the person you know in the in the show, and you're like, how would I what would I do? Yeah, Like a lot of bad things happen, but you know, society just keeps chugging along, so you just have to wonder if like a zombie apocalypse did happen you adapt to. I think we talked about this actually somewhat recently, but I would be among the first two percent to go. I'm pretty sure. Hm. That makes me sad because I'm going to stick around for a lot longer. Well, you'll have to like put me in a closet or something, or I will protect you, but no, you'll have to find the antidote, okay, because I think like on The Walking Dad, we stopped watching it after a few seasons, but at some point there's got to be an antidote, right, So don't put like a steak through my heart or anything like that.

1:12:48 You know, I'm probably not going to be the one to find the antidote, but I'm gonna I'm a survivor and I'll protect you as well. Okay, Well, I appreciate it. That's that's amazing. All right. Well, I think that's all we have. Thank you all so much for listening and for supporting us. We truly appreciate each and every one of you. Please rate, review, follow and subscribe. Find us on social media, or send us an email at Lovemary Kill at gmail dot com. And if you have a YouTube account, come follow us over on YouTube. I'm starting a new thing on YouTube. I always got something new up your sleeve. Don't you do well on the YouTube side of things. I used to try to put together a slide show. But it was it was a lot of work. It was too much work, and so I stopped doing that.

1:13:29 So now it's really boring. It's really boring. It's just the audio essentially. People so much people care. I don't know how much people care either, but I'm going to try it out. I've got a slide show type thing that I can generate without a huge amount of effort, so I'm going to try it. Well, now, grow over on the TikTok, and the TikTok is like people are like, oh no, the rules are the TikTok. As long as we got to TikTok. But yeah, I heard that their deletions are up like two percent, so yeah, but we're there. Yeah. Well that's all it takes, exis for us to go somewhere and then it's like not cool anymore. That's just how it happens. Well, anyway, until next time, don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband.