The Tan Family

0:00 Hi, I'm Tina, I'm rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife, and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to Love Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina, how are you? I'm pretty good? How are you? I'm my seasonal defective order. No, season's defective disorder. I like that. I call that. Yeah. I think it's like entrenched into my soul. Even though today is a nice day, but sixty two degrees and sunny in middle of February in Michigan does not happen. It is a little crazy. We are done with a Peterson project.

0:50 Thank you everyone for all your support and positive feedback. This case is not about a Peterson No, It's about the Tan family, Charlie Tan and his mom and dad. It's a little different than a Love Mary Killed typical case, but it's family and domestic violence. Before we jump into the case, we wanted to talk about our January donation. We donated one hundred and fifty dollars to the Texas Equisearch Organization. It's an amazing organization and they have helped a lot of families that have lost loved ones. Tim Miller founded Texas Equisearch Mounted Search and Recovery Team in August of two thousand to support families of lost and missing missing persons. The organization is dedicated to the memory of Tim's daughter, Laura, who was abducted and murdered in North Galveston County in nineteen eighty four. Since its inception, the organization has helped in thousands of missings persons cases domestically and abroad. Texas Equisearch is a nonprofit volunteer search and recovery organization. Texas Equisearch never charges for their services. Their headquarters near Houston, Texas, and their resources have evolved far beyond the original horse mounted searches, which is crazy. That's how they first started. Today they use ground searches.

2:10 They use sonar, ground penetrating radar, boats, aircraft, drones, and ATV. Many law enforcement agencies across the United States call on the resources of the organization's highly skilled searchers to assist in their lost, missing, or murder victim cases. Once a successful general contractor, Tim now spends his time coordinating with families, various law enforcement agencies, and his volunteer search teams to bring home the missing. Tim has testified in several murder trials throughout the years, helping bring justice to families and victims. He is present at nearly every search conducted by Texas Equisearch, and to donate or learn more, go to their website Texas Equisearch dot org. Didn't we learn about them in a documentary?

3:00 Was there a show? I can't remember what it was called, but it was about missing women in Texas? I think along along some corridor. Yeah, I've seen them in a few times and I follow them on social media, so yeah, they do a lot of good work. It's great. We're super proud to donate to their amazing organization, and I'm sure we will again in the future. Thank you so much for your support. We couldn't do it without you. Have a little bit of a rant about ad revenue, because that's how we donate, is from the revenue that's generated from our ads and from our patreons. But do you want to talk about that just for a second. How much the it's fluctuated since the end of twenty twenty three to the beginning of twenty twenty four. Yeah, we don't have a lot of control over how much advertisers pay to advertise on our podcast because it's all done through our podcast host. And basically, yeah, the rates have gone down quite a bit. So while we have grown, our audience has gotten bigger, the ad rates have gone lower. So we're still donating the same amount unfortunately, but hopefully that'll change. I mean, it's funny, February already seems a little better. Yeah, But anyway, just to explain that to you, that's why, you know, we keep saying, oh, our numbers are bigger, but we are donating the same amount.

4:11 But we are trying and every little bit helps, yea, And we do appreciate it because again it is all because of you, absolutely, And I do have a snack. We've talked about the snack a lot. We were supposed to record this several days ago, and we had to get a new snack, well the same snack, but a fresher version because they were stale. What what what did we get here? Well? These are something that a lot of people may not know of. It's called a punchki p A p A c z k I that is the plural. I can't remember what the what the what the singular is, but yeah, punchki. You would never get p a c z ki from that, but Pounchki was originally from Poland and made on Fat Thursday, the thursday before ash Wednesday. Pounschki Day here in Michigan is kind of a big deal. And if you celebrate, put the poonskeet where you live, let us know, because I'm curious how far Punski Day has spread because when I first moved to Michigan from Chicago area, I had never heard of a punski and I was like, what the heck is this? And it's it's a huge thing here. So here in Michigan we celebrate Punski Day on Fat Tuesday, which is the last day of Marti Grass, if I'm not mistaken, the day before ash Wednesday. Pounski was a way that people, you know, before lentch started, they would want to use up their lard and their sugar and their butter. And how do you would you describe a basically a donut? Basically it's kind of like

5:44 a jelly, like a filled donut filled with either like jelly or custard or something. No, it's here, I have it's a decade in pastry, deep fried and filled with fruit, jelly cream or chocolate filling and covered with powdered sugar, granulated sugar, or sugar glaze. And Poland, where Pounchkeeper originated, they are available year round and typically are filled with rose, marmalade, cherry or strawberry jam. And Our friend Asha, who is from Poland, is in Poland right now, so I hope she is enjoying some. We have a lemon here, No, it's an apple and a raspberry right, and they're like six hundred calories each night. I was going to say at least six. When I first moved here, you were like you you told me they were gross. You're like, oh, I hate them, they're gross. But I think you've Oh yeah, I've never been a big jelly donut fan, but I yeah, they've grown on me. I think they're really good. Yeah. Wait, take a quick break. How was the punchki? It was delicious? Which one did you prefer? I prefer the raspberry one. For the raspberry, oh, like the apple one had the cinnamon sugar on the outside. That was pretty good. You have never really seen the cinnamon and sugar before. Anyway, They're a lot like a Bismarck that I remember what a Bismarck was. A Bismarck is like a filled donut. So if you know what a Bismarck is, it's just, you know, just a big, filled round donut. But I will post a picture, but a happy Pooonski day to our fellow Michiganders. It is a

7:15 fun It's kind of a fun day here in Michigan. Let's talk about the Tan family. Charlie Tan's motto is known ceb known cebe, translated from Latin, means not for self. Charlie so strongly believes in selflessness and kindness that he has the words tattooed on his arm in bold black letters. Every day of his life, Charlie tries to make the world a better place and puts others before himself. When he was in high school, a friend made a short film of Charlie titled Random Acts of Kindness. It's just ninety seconds long, but you get a sense of who Charlie is in the video. Charlie goes through the day with his bright smile, passing out tokens for free slices of pizza, and handing out roses to random people of all ages and gender.

8:00 Nice, very very sweet, like if you see his he just seems like a lovely young man. This sense of altruism to his family and friends and community cost Charlie Tan his freedom and future after he shot and killed his father, who had subjected his family to years of domestic violence. Not much is known about the Tan family. And you know, I looked really hard. I know you did. Charlie's parents, Liang and Chiang Tan, were both born in a small village in China. Their marriage was arranged. After marriage, they emigrated to Canada and had their two sons, Jeff and Charlie. While the Tans lived in Canada, police once responded to an incident of domestic violence at their home. Chiang and her two sons were moved to a shelter to diffuse the situation. Jeff is about two and a half years older than Charlie and he remembered the situation, but Charlie did not. When Charlie was seven, the Tans moved to the US. Liang and Chiung a the names of Jim and Jane. The Tans moved to upstate New York to a small suburb of Rochester called Pittsford. They lived in an affluent neighborhood in a large, well manicured home at thirty seven coach Side Drive. Jean was a loving, devoted, stay at home mom, while Jim was always working and wasn't seen often with his wife or sons, but when he was home there were frequent loud fights that sometimes became physical. Jim Tann was five tenants, slender with dark hair and eyes. He was a fastidious man in his appearance

9:31 and demeanor. He liked to start the day by swimming laps at the YMCA. Jim held a doctorate in semiconductors and microelectronics. He had lived in China, England, Ireland, and Canada before moving to the United States. He was the founder and CEO of a successful tech company called Dynamax Imaging. Founded in two thousand and three, Dynamax produced image sensors. It was originally a small division of Panavias, a California based company that made digital camera lenses. In late twenty twelve, mister Tan acquired Panavisions Technology and incorporated it into his company, Dynamac's Imaging. Before starting his company, Jim had worked at Kodak for twenty years, His tumultuous history at Kodak was marked by complaints about his aggressive behavior from coworkers and subordinates. Despite the outward appearance of success, Jim Tann was a demanding and abusive figure. Customers and coworkers complained about his rude, aggressive behavior and tried to have him removed from his job. Former employees called him a condescending and brutal boss. Michael Sullivan, a senior production manager at Dynamacs who had also worked with Jim at Kodak, said he was a bully who tried to intimidate him. He said Jim Tann liked to pit his employees against each other, creating a hostile work environment. He frequently belittled his employees in front of each other, was prone to tantrums and throwing things around the office. Have you ever thrown things around the office? I have not,

11:07 but I have worked for people who were, yes, a little bit, and the company name was actually very similar. I'm not going to say more than that. Despite being a chaotic workplace, Dynamax was successful and had recently announced it would be expanding into New York City and adding one hundred jobs. At a press conference with Governor Andrew Cuomo, Jim Tans said, quote. By tapping into the world class first rate capabilities with the most advanced semiconductor equipment, we look forward to advancing our innovative image sensor technologies, developing new products, and establishing new partnerships, all of which will enable the company to grow and flourish and maintain the reputation of New York as the imaging capital of the world unquote. About half of Dynamax's business was in Asia. Jim frequently worked until three am to meet with his Asian customers. Although the company appeared to be thriving, it was hit with a lawsuit from Pangaea Limited, a Hong Kong company, in twenty fifteen. They alleged that in twenty thirteen, Jim Tan borrowed over a million dollars to fund capital costs and operating expenses.

12:18 The lawsuit stated that Tan acknowledged having received the loans, but that in January twenty fourteen, Tan quote advised Pangaea that Dynamax had no cash left to run, and that shortly thereafter and thenceforward, Dynamax ceased all contact with Pangaea unquote. So Jim sounds kind of like a tough guy to work with, a tough guy to live with. Not the nicest person, no. Charlie Tan attended Pittsford Mendon High School, where he excelled in all areas. He played football, was class president and or in top grades. He was a hard worker and a frequent volunteer in the community. He was known for his outgrowing personality and big smile. However, his family life was a well kept secret, shielded from even his closest friends. Due to Jim's strict control. Neighbors of the Tans witnessed frequent domestic disputes, with police often intervening. However, no charges were formally filed. Charlie and Jeff tried to diffuse the arguments, but Jim ignored their please. The violence got worse after Jeff left for college, and Charlie worried it would escalate further after he left for college, and he was afraid that he wouldn't be there to intervene and help his mom out.

13:33 Sounds like Jim was physical with Jane, but not the boys, like he yelled at the boys, and he was very controlling, and Charlie viewed himself as his mom's protector, I guess, and yeah, that was whole. You know. Charlie's personality is just to protect people that were that needed protecting, right. Jim Tan did not allow Jeff and Charlie to have friends at the house, and that was fine with Charlie because he was so busy between school and sports and his other activities. His friend's parents adored him, so he was often invited for dinner, and so he just wasn't home as much as Jeff was. Between two thousand and three and twenty fifteen, eighteen calls were replaced to nine to one one from the Tann home. Initially, the substance of the calls was not made public, and it was assumed that the calls were made by Jane calling for help during domestic arguments and abuse.

14:30 However, the Democrat and Chronicle newspaper found through their FOIA request that most of the calls were actually placed by Jim. Several calls were regarding arguments with Jeff. Jeff was more rebellious and boisterous than Charlie. He wasn't afraid to stand up to his father, and he received more of Jim's ire and abuse than Charlie. And middle school once Jeff attempted suicide and his father later ridiculed him for it. And again, Charlie was just good at avoiding those situations because he wasn't home a lot. How do you ridicule your son for attempting suicide? You're a horrible, horrible man right. In one of the calls, Jim accused Jane of stealing some of his important business papers. In another call, he said, Jean scratched him. Oh can you imagine calling nine one?

15:20 Jim called nine one one after he thought Jeff had poisoned his food one time. And all of these eighteen calls that were made to nine one one from the tannhouse, there were never once any formal charges filed, and no one was ever arrested. Neighbors recalled hearing frequent yelling coming from the Tann home, even when all the doors and windows were closed. Charlie had always dreamed of attending an Ivy League college. He was thrilled when he gained admittance to Cornell University in Ithaca, New York. And Ithaca was about I think one hundred miles from their home in Pittsford. In the winter of twenty fifteen, Charlie nineteen, was a sophomore at the College in Agriculture and Life Sciences, where he maintained a three point four GPA. Charlie, at one hundred and sixty five pounds, was considered too small to play regular collegiate football, so he played on a sprint and football team, which is still considered regulation.

16:18 College football played under the same rules and regulations, but all the players must be under one hundred and seventy eight pounds. I've never heard of that. It's kind of a great idea, right it is. So it's it's not flag football, it's just it's regular football. But just you can't be over one hundred questions. Yeah, the only other thing I read was that it's a faster paced game. Okay, So that's all I can tell you about. I think it sounds like a nice idea. Charlie was also a member of the Chi five fraternity. While Charlie was away at Cornell, he compartmentalized his life at college from his life at home, but his mother's calls and texts escalated in late twenty fourteen and early twenty fifteen. She had become in recently increasingly frightened and panicked, as Charlie had feared Jim had become more physical since he'd left for Cornel. Jean leaned heavily on Charlie for support, calling him after every fight, which I can understand she needed support. But yeah, that's really sadly. This really has this opportunity to break away and become his own person, but he just felt obligated. I'm sure. Yeah.

17:25 January twenty eighth, twenty fifteen, Jean called nine one one after Jim became physical with her once again. Here's the nine one one call. Yes, hi, man, I was the Jing and I'm at the thirty seven Coach Final and my husband just beats me up. I need you expections. Are you injured? Yes, I'm He choked me and I'm so scared. Please please help all no, please please all right here, just my wife agument of sex. Okay, so let me explain that. It's a little hard to understand. But Geene is calling nine one one. She's saying, my husband just beat me up, Please come help me. And then Jim comes walking up and I don't I think that She hung up the phone, and then he called back and he said, oh, everything's fine. Here we just had a little fight. But luckily the police decided to you know, they had to do Yeah, they had to come to the house. The officer came to the house and he said he did notice that there were some red marks on her neck, but nothing that you know, made him want to arrest him. He said to Jim, you should probably leave for the night, calm down, get a hotel room, and that's what he did.

19:00 After the police left and Jim left, Jean called Charlie and she told him about the latest attack. The January twenty eighth call was kind of the first and the timeline events of events that unfolded that I'm going to have you read now, okay. On February fourth of twenty fifteen, Jean called Charlie and told him that Jim was becoming more aggressive and feared that he would soon kill her. He told his mother to stay in the bedroom and lock the door until Jim calmed down. On Thursday, February fifth of twenty fifteen, Charlie stopped in to see his football coach, Terry Cullen. Coach Colin was also Charlie's academic advisor, so he knew him well. Charlie told him he wouldn't be able to make it to team weightlifting the next day because he had to go home to take care of a family matter. Coach Colin noted that Charlie was on the verge of tears. He asked if he could help Charlie with anything. Charlie declined and said there was nothing he could do. Coach asked Charlie to call him later to let him know that he got home okay, but he never. Charlie made the one hundred mile drive to Pittsford in the late afternoon. He had dinner with his friend Anna Valentine. She later told investigators that Charlie seemed normal. After dinner, he went to see his friend Jacob Grossman. His friend could tell that something was up. Charlie seemed distressed. He told Jacob he might need to leave the country and asked if he had any cash that he could borrow. Earlier in the day, Charlie had gone to the bank near campus and emptied his account. He told to

20:30 tell her that he was leaving school. Jacob and his mom were so concerned Charlie was going to harm himself that they called nine one one. After he left at ten fifty pm, and requested that police do a welfare check. Here's a clip on that one. He didn't give us a lot of details. I'm just worried that she might do something at his house, you know, if anything's going to happen. But I just can't take a chair. I'm going to house and check on him. The Grossmans drove to Charlie's house and waited until the police arrived. Deputy Steve Williams arrived at the tannhouse at eleven forty six pm. Officer Williams noted that Charlie and Jean appeared to be headed out the door. Charlie talked with the officer and admitted he was going through some things, but he was fine and his friend had overreacted. He said he'd come home for the weekend to talk with friends and see his family.

21:26 He assured the officer that he would be okay. The officer did not go into the tannhouse. Deputy Williams noted that Charlie was calm and well spoken. He asked Charlie if he planned on hurting anyone, and he said no, I love my parents. Days later, the deputy would realize in horror that mister Tan was likely already dead during this visit. Investigators believed that Charlie killed his father shortly after he returned from Jacob's house. Charlie and Jean left Pittsford after the visit from Deputy Williams and drove to Toronto, Canada, where they spent the weekend. Jeff flew to Toronto from Denver and stayed with his brother and mother for the weekend. Charlie and Jean applied for Chinese travel visas and purchased one way tickets to Shanghai, China. One way tickets huh.

22:15 They planned to depart on Monday, February fifth. However, when Monday came, the Tans nervously reconsidered the plan. Charlie didn't want to leave Jeff alone in the United States to face the consequences of his father's death by himself. Begrudgingly, Charlie and Jean drove back to the US and formulated a new plan on the way, not necessarily a good plan. When Charlie missed practice on Monday, Coach Clin texted Charlie, but he didn't respond. Charlie sent his fraternity brothers an email with the subject showtime on February ninth, twenty fifteen, at five thirteen pm. It read my brothers. In the coming days, you'll start to hear things in the news and possibly get a couple of visits from the authorities. Don't listen to anything you hear if you already know my true story, and in due time you will also. I love you all so much, and you have given me the family I never had. I can only hope I have left a positive impression on all of your lives.

23:14 As well known Sebee, how I like to think my actions reflect in the whole scheme of things. Thank you for teaching me this lesson special thanks to Chevera for letting me steal the location on my arm. I think he means for the tattoo. Ah Okay, the best days are ahead of all of us, and I promise I will be back in the future. In the meantime, I hope you will visit as always. Fuck the haters, Love Charlie Tan. Interesting note. It's an interesting note in the subject line showtime. I think that's kind of bothersome to you. It's strange. Yeah, what do you think showtime means? Think he means that he just killed his dad? And you know it's I don't really know what he means, just it is just an ad word choice for sure. Yeah, but let's just remember Charlie is nineteen and smart kid, but you know, makes bad decisions.

24:08 When Charlie and Jean returned to Pittsford, Gene Tan called nine one one at six nine pm. Here's a clip. Nine one one is the guys with the emergency yes him to say, did you say you heard a shot and this is your son? Are you want to say? Spot, Yes, he's trying to protecting me. Your son was trying to protect you. Yeah. Jean obviously very upset there, overwrought with emotion. It's kind of hard to understand, but she says, you know, my son shot my husband. My husband or my son was protecting me. And how how long after the actual shooting was this, Well, this is Monday evening and we believe that Jim w shot on Thursday. Okay, so they left, they came back a couple days later, and so Jane is pretending that this just happened, right, And as you know, a lot of things happened to a body at a crime scene three or four days. So the police arrived at thirty seven coach side drive and found Charlie and Jean waiting in the driveway with their arms raised over their heads. Charlie told one of the responding officers, I had to do it. He was going to kill my mom.

25:27 This would later be considered a confession. Officers assumed the shooting was an act of self defense, but when they entered the home, nothing seemed out of order until they got to Jim's office, they found him slumped on the floor under his desk. Investigators soon realized that mister Tan had been shot days earlier. The house had begun to smell of decay, and the blood stains were dry. It was estimated he had been dead for four days. On Jim's computer, an email from February fifth was open. It appeared to be the last email he read. No email received after February fifth had been opened. So it's kind of crazy that they thought this was gonna work. Yeah, they didn't really think that through, did they. No. But I'm glad that they came back and, you know, faced the music. But had Charlie shot his dad on Thursday and then told the police, I think maybe things would have ended a little differently, right, we'll be back after a break. I'm glad we took that break so i could finish my punch, trying to trying to eat all of raspberry PUNCHKI good. Yeah, I think Raspberry's got to be the up there. I wish we would have gotten a chocolate one. Yeah, me too. Okay, let's go back after.

26:47 We need to find the eighth that we got. Anyway, let's let's get back to the tank, all right. Well. Investigating the crime scene, police found three gun casing in Jim's office. There had been no attempt to clean them up. One of the shell casings had Charlie's fingerprints on it, but investigators weren't certain who shot Jim, and they were wondering if Charlie could have been covering up for his mom. A seemingly new shotgun was found in the garage, but it was wiped free of Charlie's I'm sorry fingerprints or DNA. Jeane had an appointment card in her pocket with a court date on it for a domestic violence hearing scheduled on February third. Also in Jean's pocket was a list of local defense attorneys. New passports were found in the tan home for Gene and Charlie, and police noted that there was no signs of struggle inside the home. Jim appeared to have been shot at close range while he was sitting at his desk, because, like you said, he was found slumped under the desk. His face was said to be unrecognizable, so the shot one of the shots was at very close range. Jeane and Charlie were driven to the police station separately for questioning, but within minutes an attorney arrived to represent them and shut down the questioning, so no formal interview was ever done. Charlie was arrested days later for the second degree murder of his father.

28:11 Over one hundred friends came to the arraignment to support Charlie. They yelled stay strong, Charlie, and we love you Charlie. As he was let out of the courtroom in handcuffs, tears were glistening in his eyes. One of his friends from high school, kareem to Will, said quote, Charlie's a big kid in the community, as you can see from all the people here. He's just a great kid, and most of us feel a little guilty. We had a sense that his home life wasn't that good. End quote. Another friend said, quote, I just want him to know he's still got all of us end quote. They said they had never once seen his father at a school function, football game, or even graduation. Investigators soon discovered that the shotgun used in the murder was purchased at a Walmart near Cornell in Courtland, New York, on February fifth, the same day that Charlie made the journey back home. Charlie was refused the purchase because he is not an American citizen, it is not legal for him to make a same day purchase. Foreign Born citizens are subject to a waiting period. Charlie asked his friend Whitney Knickerbacker, to purchase the gun on his behalf. Whitney is also from Pittsford and he was a student at Cornell. He played football with Charlie and pledged the same fraternity, so they were really close friends. Charlie explained to Whitney that he was going at camping and hunting trip for the weekend and he needed a gun. No one had ever seen Charlie on a hunting trip his whole life, but Whitney purchased the gun and gave it to Charlie before he drove home to Pittsford. Charlie's friend Anna Valentines started a fundraiser on

29:48 his behalf to help pay for his legal fees. Over fifty thousand dollars was raised for him in less than two weeks. So that shows you how much support Charlie had amongst the community and his friends. The advice of his lawyers, Charlie pleaded not guilty to the second degree murder charge. He was released on March fifth on fifty thousand dollars bond until the trial began in September of twenty fifteen. Judge James Pimpano presided over the trial. Pimpano was up for a spot on the New York Supreme Court in the November election. We you and I went back and forth about this. In twenty states, Supreme Court justices are appointed, and in twenty four states they are elected. So in New York they are elected, and in Michigan they are elected, but in some states they are just appointed. Why do we all have to do everything different? Every state is a little different. Several employees of Jim Tands testified to is difficult personality and poor treatment of them. They called him a bully and said he pitted his employees against each other. One neighbor testified and call him, called him unfriendly and intimidating. I'm glad our neighbors don't have to have to testify in court about us. Another neighbor of the Tans wrote a letter to the judge in support of Charlie. She called Jim controlling and quick tempered. She said she often saw Jeane Tan with bruises on her arms.

31:11 She continued that after fighting with Jean, Jim had canceled her credit cards, telephone, and internet on multiple occasions. Not one person came to the trial in support of Jim tann Or testified on his behalf, which is very telling. Yeah, that's saying something. Yeah, they can't fight, they can't dig one person from his past. Charlie's lawyers tried to downplay his earlier admission of guilt. They argued that when Charlie said, quote, I had to do it, he was going to kill my mom, he could have meant anything like he could have meant, you know, I bought the gun because I had to buy the gun because my dad was going to kill my mom. Okay, stretch. But the defense pointed to the lack of fingerprints on the gun, They argued there was insufficient evidence to convict Charlie. In a surprising twist, the defense alleged that Jane Tan was the shooter. She had the motive, not Charlie, they argued. Coach Colin testified at the trial and called Charlie quote a very positive and a really good guy, and several other people were character with witnesses for Charlie as well. The prosecution argued that mister Tan was not a danger to his family. There were no defensive wounds, and it appeared that he had been shot not in defense, but in cold and premeditated fashion. So this is where you know, the police had been to the home multiple times, but because there had never been any formal charges or an arrest, that kind of came back to hurt them. It was kind of mind boggling that they did go there so many times and yet there was no arrest. Like you said earlier, like they saw red marks

32:45 around her neck, but they didn't make an arrest. That seems irresponsible to me. Well, that's the problem with domestic violence. You know, it's hard to prove it. And a lot of times he said, she said, and yeah, yeah, policed, and there were red marks, but if they weren't, there weren't bruises. She wasn't bleeding, you know, and you know she maybe they were thinking like she could have done it for herself. Yeah. The trial lasted four weeks before the nearly all female jury began deliberations on September twenty ninth. Deliberations lasted fifty hours over six days. During the deliberation, the jury sent the judge over two dozen notes. Sometimes they requested to review evidence or asked for clarification on a role, but the jury was at a standstill. Eight voted for a conviction and four for an acquittal. Judge James Pampiano issued the jury and all in charge, which I've never heard of, which is an instruction for the jury to continue deliberations and a request for those in the minority to reconsider their position in hopes of avoiding a hang jury. Interesting, pan Piano said to the jury, quote, start with a fresh slate. Did not feel bound by how you felt before, whether you favor conviction or acquittal. Have the courage to be flexible.

34:04 I don't like that at all. Like I understand not wanting a hung jury, but and this this would be a hard case to deliberate. Yeah, yeah, for sure. If the jury failed to reach a unanimous decision, the judge would be forced to declare a mistrial and the case would have to be retried. Nevertheless, after day six, a mistrial was declared. The jurors were shocked and kind of disappointed because they thought they would eventually come to a consensus, but the judge pressured them to wrap things up. Here's a clip. I had no words. I was in total shock that he would decide that, and in my heart, I didn't feel that justice was served at all. I don't think it says a lot of good things about the justice system, only because it is. It was thought to be a trial by jury and the end it was basically a trial by judge's decision, and I don't think that's the way things are supposed to go. I don't know how long that you're supposed to a jury. But they really did believe that they would have come to a consensus at one point. Well weren't they.

35:06 Did the judge tell them they had to stop and declare a mistrial or did they to judge stop them? Oh? Okay, they were at a standstill. But like those jurors said, you know, they really thought they were going to get there. That is strange. Yeah, I would think the judge would want them to take as long as it took, because if you have to do a retrial, that's a huge expense in Cassle for everyone involved. We'll hold on to your hat. Hearing on November fifth, twenty fifteen, was held to determine how to proceed with a new trial. Judge Pampiano had won the Supreme Court seat just days before, the state had every intent to retry Charlie for his father's murder. The defense moved he to dismiss the charges against Charlie, which you know is routine and done in almost every trial.

35:50 Judge Pampiano, in a move that shocked the entire courtroom, agreed with the defense and dismissed the charges against Charlie. Wow. He cited the lack of against him and declared a second trial unnecessary. Charlie and his supporters were thrilled he was suddenly a free man with a bright future in front of him again. Assistant DA Bill Gargan, however, was fuming as I could imagine. Yeah, he interrupted the judge While he was speaking, he accused Judge Pampiano of having amnesia and reminded him that Charlie had admitted to killing his father, that his mother admitted that Charlie was guilty, and that they had tried to flee the country. Here's a clip of prosecutor gargain. Because amnesia means you've forgotten things. And when it appeared that the court had not utilized other evidence in the record, I wanted to point that out. The judge told him he needed to take back his comments, and he refused. The judge threatened to have him arrested if he didn't sit down and be quiet. Judge said that he would put me in handcuffs, and the judge of yelling into the microphone. I don't think in any moment I crossed the line of professionalism.

37:07 How surd his decision is in light of the evidence of a law. So that's pretty unprecedented to threaten a prosecutor with being jailed. Yeah, it's pretty crazy. So Charlie was officially a free man. He faced a disciplinary hearing at Cornell to be reinstated by the university, but Charlie decided not to return. It was unlikely that he would regain admission. He formally withdrew from Cornell, but Charlie was determined to finish his education. He applied to twenty four different colleges. Chicago State University was the only one to grant him admittance and that's where he went. Judge James Pampiano advanced to the Supreme Court, but his decision to dismiss the case against Charlie was heavily scrutinized. An appellant court ruled it wrong and legally unsound. However, the court ruled that Charlie could not be tried again for a murder because of double jeopardy laws, But unfortunately for Charlie, the case did not end there. It's interesting that I guess I don't fully understand double jeopardy laws, but he wasn't actually tried and acquitted. Right, the judge dismissed the case, but still the double jeopardy laws applied. They couldn't try it and try them again for the same crime.

38:28 Interesting, I did wonder again, not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, but could he have been tried written involuntary manslaughter or manslaughter rather than secondary murder? Yeah? You would think. Judge James Pampiano was formally censured in twenty seventeen by the Commission on Judicial Conduct for having used questionable judgment. If you're a judge, you probably should not use questionable judgment. The panel was dismayed by public comments that he made to the media after Charlie's trial. He referred to Charlie as a sympathetic figure, but he is Yeah. The panel ruled that the judge quote violated ethics when he threatened a handcuff and Jaella prosecutor for attempting to address him when he granted a defense motion to dismiss a murder charge end quote. The formal censure is the harshest punishment for a judge short of removal from the bench. Judge Pampiano accepted responsibility for his actions. He served as a Supreme Court justice until his retirement on December thirty first, twenty twenty. It's pretty crazy for a Supreme Court justice. I know it's just a state Supreme court, but to get censured in that way, yeah, pretty serious. Yeah, and maybe that's why he didn't serve for a super long time. I don't know. Prosecutors were frustrated and angered when the case against Charlie was dropped. They believed he killed his father in premeditated cold blood. They did not believe it was a crime of passion or an act of self defense. They were determined that he should receive prison time,

40:00 but the rule of double jeopardy applied and Charlie could not again be tried for murder. Prosecutors decided to get creative and pursue him on federal weapons charges. The shotgun used to kill Jim Tan had been illegally acquired from Walmart. Oh boy, it seems like the person who would be liable for that though, would be the person who bought the shotgun, not Charlie. But I guess both of them could be in trouble for that right. Yes, Prosecutors got lucky when surveillance footage was found that clearly showed Charlie attempting to purchase a shotgun on February fifth, and later when his friend Whitney Knickerbocker returned to purchase the gun. Prosecutors approached Whitney Knickerbocker about his participation in the purchasing of the shotgun. Initially, he lied and said the gun was for his personal use, but later agreed to cooperate to avoid any legal action. Meanwhile, Charlie had moved back to Canada and laid low. Authorities in the US weren't sure of his whereabouts, but in Septembermber of twenty seventeen, Charlie was invited to a friend's wedding. When he attempted to re enter the US, he was arrested at a border crossing. On September twenty second, Charlie was indicted on three federal gun charges related to a Model eight seventy twelve gage shotgun, Winchester twelve gage ammunition and Federal twelve gage shotgun ammunition. So two different types of amias. I don't know why there is that much ammunition. These charges encompassed receiving a firearm with intent to commit an offense and two counts of making false

41:34 statements during the attempted gun purchase. So they nailed Charlie unlying basically like you know, he was falsifying the application. Right faced with these new charges, Charlie, now twenty three, pleaded not guilty. While awaiting trial, he changed his mind and decided to plead guilty to the weapons charge rather than face another trial. The sentencing guideline range from five to twenty five years. Charlie's lawyers argued for a reduced sentence of five years in a pre trial motion due to his good character and the challenging circumstances he faced as a nineteen year old. Despite Charlie's attorney's pleased for leniency, they were unsuccessful. Coaches, family, and friends filled the courtroom, once again, providing overwhelming support for him.

42:23 The judge called Charlie quote an extremely disturbed individual unquote and sentenced him to twenty years in federal prison. That's wow, that's a lot a lot. Yeah, and a weapons charge. Yeah. I guess you would call that a trumped up weapons charge right well, pretty much. Yeah, they found a reason to prosecute him. Federal regulations stipulate that at least eighty five percent of the sentence must be served, making Charlie eligible for parole after seventeen years upon release. Deportation to Canada remains a likely outcome for Chow Charlie. Oh or not done yet? Do you think justice has been served here? Boy?

43:05 It's really It's a tough one for me. I mean it, yeah, I feel a lot of empathy for Charlie and the situation he was in, But at the same time, you can't take the law into your own hands. In twenty nineteen, Charlie, still hoping to have his sentence reduced, confessed to shooting his father. I think prosecutors had been waiting for this moment. They're like, you know, just admit it. Charlie submitted a lengthy affidavit along with a personal letter to the judge. In his appeal, Charlie made it clear that he felt as if he had no other choice but to shoot his father or Jim Tann likely would have killed his mother, and a letter to the judge, Charlie wrote, quote, all I knew is that my mother was unusually defeated and repeatedly told me that he was going to kill her. I felt that there was no other option that I had to protect her. Rather than digest the situation and any other possible alternatives, I acted on impulse, leading to my series of immature and irrational decisions. I entered my parents' home through the back door, walked upstairs, turned into my father's office, and shot my father three times as he was sitting at his desk. I knew I had killed him. Charlie cited an effective counsel during his trial and claimed his previous attorneys who represented him during the murder trial and later during the weapons charged failed to provide the full extent of the domestic violence history and abuse his family had experienced, and also advised him not to admit his guilt. He said that he'd wanted it initially. He was like,

44:36 I'm just going to plead guilty, and they dissuaded him from doing that. They also accused the judge of not considering Charlie's age when he killed his father. That is hard because in the law, like the minute you turn eighteen, you're an adult, and as we know of parents of young adults, that's not how it works. Don't at eighteen, you know, become brain is not suddenly a mature a right. So I'm going to read you part of the affidavit just so. These are Charlie's words. For as long as I can remember, my father would abuse my mother by shoving her, slapping her, choking her, and pulling her hair. Sometimes I would see them fighting, and other times I would hear them behind closed doors and would see my mother's bruises afterwards. While there were calmer periods where months passed without learning about any further abuse. The abuse always resumed and occurred regularly. He would yell at my mother and smash things, throwing pots and pans or breaking chairs.

45:35 I remember spending my sixth or seventh birthday in a women's shelter and feeling relieved to be there because it was anything was better than being home with all the fighting and abuse. Several times the abuse was so bad that my mother or Jeoff would call the police. The police would usually tell my father to leave for a few days, which he would do. Sometimes when he left, he would shut off utilities as well as cable phone and into service to our home. Starting around sixth grade, my father abused my mother more severely in my presence, laying his hands on my mother, choking her, slapping her, and pulling her hair. Abuse got worse in high school after Jeff went to college. During Thanksgiving break of twenty fourteen, I saw my father choke my mother on the kitchen floor and threaten to kill her. I pulled my father off my mother, who ran out of the kitchen. My father's face was red and he said, she's crazy, this bitch. I told him he couldn't do this. After Thanksgiving, I returned to school and tried to forget about this incident and act as if things were normal, even though I knew they were not. After this incident, I told my mother I would not be coming home for the Christmas holiday, and that she should go and stay with Jeff in Colorado. My mother, brother, and I did spend part of the holiday together in Colorado, away from my father. I do not specifically recall my mother telling me during that Christmas break that she thought she would soon die or be killed, or that if something happened to her, my father was to blame. However, she had conveyed such fears to

47:07 me multiple times. My father had also told me numerous times that he wanted to kill my mother. I have reviewed with my present attorney's a December twenty fourth, twenty fourteen, email in which he wrote to me, quote sometimes I really want to kill her. He had said such things to me many times before. On the night of January twenty eighth, twenty fifteen, my mother called me and told me that my father had choked her, that she had lost consciousness, and that there were red marks all over her neck. She told me that she thought she was going to die and believed the next time my father would kill her. I immediately called my father, as I told the probation officer. When I asked my father what happen, he said my mother was crazy and denied choking her. Don't worry about her. She's fucking crazy. She scratched me. I said, she says, you choked her pretty good. You can't keep doing this. My father told me it was none of my business and said if she keeps pissing me off, he would kill her. After this conversation, I believed my father might very well kill my mother, either on purpose or by accidentally choking her too hard.

48:14 I decided I needed to protect my mother by any means necessary, and I got it into my mind that that meant killing my father. I checked in with her, texting about every day matters and speaking to her approximately five minutes on February first, twenty fifteen, and seven minutes on the night of February fourth, twenty fifteen. According to my cell phone records disclosed by the government and recently reviewed by my present counsel, she told me again that she believed the next time my father would kill her and sound resigned to her that fate. I told her to lay low, stay in her room with the door locked. I knew that in killing my father, I would be throwing away my future, but I wasn't thinking of that on the February fourth call.

48:55 I did not think past getting a gun, shooting my father, taking my mind to Canada, and fleeing to China. After I killed my father, I then told my mother to pack up her things and prepared to drive with her to Canada. As I was outside by my car, I saw the police car park by your driveway and an officer got out. I walked to the front of the driveway to meet him. I told the officer that I was okay and didn't plan to harm myself or anyone else. My heart was racing, but I tried to stake holme. I then drove with my mother to Toronto, thinking I would flee from there to China. We picked up our visas on Monday, February ninth, but by then I had already decided to return to the US. I made this decision because if I went to China, my mother and brother might be blamed for the murder, and my mother would be destitute and my brother would be left alone in the US.

49:46 On February ninth, my mother called the police and reported that I had shot and killed my father in order to protect her. And it goes on. But you get the you know, yeah, you get it. Tough situation. It's super hard, and you know he should Charlie have killed his father? No, but after years of abuse, Yeah, I can't say that. I really blame him. I don't know how should he have handled it? I guess is the question. I'm thinking to myself if I was in that situation, what would I do? And I really don't I don't know, right. So along with affidavit, there were twenty seven exhibits and a fifty one page psychological evaluation like I said, and he also wrote this five page handwritten letter to Judge Skulln. His letter focused on three points, how he ended up in the current position he was in, what he learned, and how he would live his life once he has read. Charlie said that he realized that he had been foolish and wished he had handled the situation differently.

50:51 He wished he had sought out help and not taken matters into his own hands. He discussed how if given the opportunity, he would like to work with Adoless, an open and after school facility focusing on mentoring, athletics and tutoring. Assistant USDA Lisa Fletcher aggressively maintained that mister tans murder was intentional and premeditated. She implored the court that despite the number of character with witnesses and public support Charlie had, he should not receive special treatment. And things were about to get worse for Charlie. Prosecutors found new evidence that conflicted with Charlie's nice guy image. Evidence was found that Charlie, while at Cornell sold marijuana and psychedelic drugs, including psilocybin, mushrooms, and DMT. The evidence was found going through Charlie's cell phone records using a new technology to recover encrypted messages that hadn't been available during the murder trial. Prosecutors alleged that Charlie charged two hundred dollars an ounce for marijuana, and in January twenty fifteen, he received a shipment of five pounds of marijuana value at twelve. That was okay, so this was not just like selling a little bit here and there. Yeah, that was a dealer, Yeah yeah, which is kind of that's shocking knowing everything that you know, It's like, oh yeah yeah. Judge Scullen said that Charlie selling drugs conflicted with the image his attorneys put forth, and that his character may not have been as strong as everyone thought it was.

52:20 He said, quote, Clearly there is a side of you that many people here are not aware of. Judge Scullen called Charlie a troubled young man and said he needed mental help. Judge Scullen noted in his decision that using sentencing guidelines, he could have sentenced Charlie to more time, as much as thirty years, but he instead sentenced Charlie to twenty years. So he was like, I'm doing you a favor only giving you twenty years. He said. Quote. The court came to this conclusion at least partially because defense council focused on the defendant's mental health as a mitigating factor. End quote. The court denied Charlie's motion for a re do sentence. Charlie is serving out his sentence in the medium security Federal prison, ray Brook Prison in Lake Placid, New York. I have never listened to Kendall Ray's podcast or YouTube channel before.

53:13 But she also covered this case and she does a great job. But she has communicated with Charlie since she did his case, and she said he's doing well and plans to help victims of domestic violence once he has released. I hope he gets an early release because, yeah, I hope so too. I think it's just such a lot. I think twenty years is longer than he deserves. I think he definitely deserves to be punished. He should not have done what he did. I think like five to eight years. Yeah, that's what feels more right to me too. Yeah, that's that's just my opinion. You can disagree with us. We'd love to hear your opinion on this. As you know, domestic violence is an issue I feel very strongly about, and oftentimes there's just no justice for domestic violence victim. Right unless the person dies, or the perpetrator dies or is put in prison for a very long time, the person never feels safe, right, And I think Charlie was just trying to make his mom feel safe. He knew that he couldn't be there to protect her from day to day. Yeah, it's a really tough situation too. I mean, you can look back in hindsight and say, oh, she should have gotten out of there, or he could have handled it differently or whatever. But it's just it's not that simple.

54:28 Right. I don't think Charlie was a danger to society. I don't think he will be when he's released. Right. I think he's a you know, he's a good person and he was just trying to protect his mom. Yeah, and those prosecutors like they just really it seemed like they wanted to win more than they wanted justice. Yeah, it kind of seems that way. This is going to break your heart. In twenty fifteen, Charlie was offered a plea deal. If he pled guilty at a first degree manslaughter, he would have received an eight year sentence and he would have been released from prison in twenty twenty three. But he did not take the plea deal. Now, this was before he won. I think it was before the trial. Oh okay, wow. From what I could gather Jeff's hand, Charlie's older brother is the president and CEO of Dyna Max and Jane works with him and she handles the Asian market, which makes up about half of their business. Gane owns fifty percent of the company, while Jeff and Charlie each owned twenty five percent of the company, and the company is now valued at about five million dollars. Well, some good good news, I guess.

55:34 Yeah. And if you know, when Charlie gets out, he could he work for the family business and hopefully help domestic violence victims like he would like to. Bill Gargan, who was the prosecutor in Charlie's trial, now runs the Domestic Violence Bureau in the Monroe County District Attorney's Office, and last fall, he said he was aware of the abuse that was going on inside of the Tan home. He told NBC News ten in Rochester. Quote, I wish I could tell you the number of people I've encountered professionally who have been in situations far worse and yet did not take it upon themselves to murder their abuser. End quote. Okay, I mean, I mean it's yes.

56:17 I wish that Charlie would have found another avenue to protect his mom. It's a really tough case. It I just wanted to My source for this case was largely the Democrat and Chronicle newspaper out of Rochester, New York. They did a fabulous job reporting on this case. They had hundreds of articles and there was not a paywall. So that's why I wanted to give them a shout out, because I mean, I read so many articles and I was kept thinking of paywalls. It didn't. They did a great job reporting. And also the Cornell University newspaper I used and they were they were also they all that did a very nice job. You got to appreciate good local news sources. Yeah, it's a it's a disappearing art. Unfortunately it is, and a lot of these cases are not covered in major newspapers. If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence, please please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at eight hundred seven nine nine seven two three three or text the word start to eight eight seven eight eight for twenty four to seven three sixty five support. If you call or text that number, I believe they can help connect you with local resources. Well, and that's the story of Charlie tan Hey. It's almost Valentine's Day, it sure is. I have a smooth transition hut. So on Wednesday this week Valentine's Day, we collaborated with

57:54 six other podcasters for what's called the Broken Hearts Collaboration. Our friends at Buried Motives invited us to be part of their collaboration, and it was I think we might have talked about this briefly before, but we talk about a case that we covered once before, the Toto family. But you can listen to our new friends and the cases that they also did. Yeah, it was a lot of fun to do and hopefully it will be a lot of fun to listen to. I think it's kind of long. I think it's over two hours, almost two hours. Yeah, yeah, So I hope you guys enjoy that. A little treat for you on Valentine's Day because we love you. We do. Do you want to give a quick Super Bowl prediction?

58:35 I know we're releasing on Monday. I don't care. You can, I just say listeners. He took it like a man. I didn't cry. I didn't break anything. I know you may have cried. I don't know. I was not in the room. I didn't cry, but he was. You were such a good sport. I was very proud of you. Yeah, well, I was just I really did have the mindset that I was just happy they got as far as yeah, you were definitely great talking about the Lions, of course, in case any of you don't know, but yeah, it was uh, I enjoyed it. You had a lot of fun and it would have been great. What was the one thing that you said that you were really happy about? Your prediction? Oh?

59:15 Yes, back in September I made I predicted exactly how hard the Lions would go, and I was correct. So I feel good about that at least. But I don't know the super Bowl itself. I mean, I don't care that much. The only reason I care is because I have a couple of really good friends that live in Kansas City that are big Chiefs fans. So I probably will be rooting for the Chiefs. I'm just rooting for Tailors with Well, then you're rooting for the Chiefs, no, I mean yeah. I just want everyone to have a fun time of both teams, just to have fun, and I have some nice dip and wings and I don't know, maybe i'll watch it with you. Yeah, it's always fun. All right. Well, thanks so much, everyone, Have a happy Valentine's Day, have a wonderful week. Please rate, review, follow and subscribe, follow us on social media, or send us an email. At Lovemarykill at gmail dot com, and please consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash Lovemrykill one tier five dollars a month for early ad free access and a monthly bonus episode until next time. Don't kill your husband, Don't kill your wife.