The Tan Family

WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Tina, I'm rich. And if there's one thing we've learned

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in over twenty years of marriage,
it's that some days you'll feel like killing

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your wife, and some days you'll
feel like killing your husband. Welcome to

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Love Mary Kill, Hey Rich,
Hey Tina, how are you? I'm

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pretty good? How are you?
I'm my seasonal defective order. No,

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season's defective disorder. I like that. I call that. Yeah. I

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think it's like entrenched into my soul. Even though today is a nice day,

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but sixty two degrees and sunny in
middle of February in Michigan does not

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happen. It is a little crazy. We are done with a Peterson project.

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Thank you everyone for all your support
and positive feedback. This case is

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not about a Peterson No, It's
about the Tan family, Charlie Tan and

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his mom and dad. It's a
little different than a Love Mary Killed typical

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case, but it's family and domestic
violence. Before we jump into the case,

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we wanted to talk about our January
donation. We donated one hundred and

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fifty dollars to the Texas Equisearch Organization. It's an amazing organization and they have

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helped a lot of families that have
lost loved ones. Tim Miller founded Texas

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Equisearch Mounted Search and Recovery Team in
August of two thousand to support families of

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lost and missing missing persons. The
organization is dedicated to the memory of Tim's

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daughter, Laura, who was abducted
and murdered in North Galveston County in nineteen

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eighty four. Since its inception,
the organization has helped in thousands of missings

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persons cases domestically and abroad. Texas
Equisearch is a nonprofit volunteer search and recovery

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organization. Texas Equisearch never charges for
their services. Their headquarters near Houston,

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Texas, and their resources have evolved
far beyond the original horse mounted searches,

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which is crazy. That's how they
first started. Today they use ground searches.

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They use sonar, ground penetrating radar, boats, aircraft, drones,

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and ATV. Many law enforcement agencies
across the United States call on the resources

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of the organization's highly skilled searchers to
assist in their lost, missing, or

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murder victim cases. Once a successful
general contractor, Tim now spends his time

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coordinating with families, various law enforcement
agencies, and his volunteer search teams to

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bring home the missing. Tim has
testified in several murder trials throughout the years,

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helping bring justice to families and victims. He is present at nearly every

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search conducted by Texas Equisearch, and
to donate or learn more, go to

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their website Texas Equisearch dot org.
Didn't we learn about them in a documentary?

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Was there a show? I can't
remember what it was called, but

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it was about missing women in Texas? I think along along some corridor.

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Yeah, I've seen them in a
few times and I follow them on social

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media, so yeah, they do
a lot of good work. It's great.

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We're super proud to donate to their
amazing organization, and I'm sure we

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will again in the future. Thank
you so much for your support. We

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couldn't do it without you. Have
a little bit of a rant about ad

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revenue, because that's how we donate, is from the revenue that's generated from

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our ads and from our patreons.
But do you want to talk about that

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just for a second. How much
the it's fluctuated since the end of twenty

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twenty three to the beginning of twenty
twenty four. Yeah, we don't have

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a lot of control over how much
advertisers pay to advertise on our podcast because

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it's all done through our podcast host. And basically, yeah, the rates

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have gone down quite a bit.
So while we have grown, our audience

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has gotten bigger, the ad rates
have gone lower. So we're still donating

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the same amount unfortunately, but hopefully
that'll change. I mean, it's funny,

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February already seems a little better.
Yeah, But anyway, just to

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explain that to you, that's why, you know, we keep saying,

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oh, our numbers are bigger,
but we are donating the same amount.

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But we are trying and every little
bit helps, yea, And we do

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appreciate it because again it is all
because of you, absolutely, And I

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do have a snack. We've talked
about the snack a lot. We were

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supposed to record this several days ago, and we had to get a new

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snack, well the same snack,
but a fresher version because they were stale.

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What what what did we get here? Well? These are something that

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a lot of people may not know
of. It's called a punchki p A

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p A c z k I that
is the plural. I can't remember what

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the what the what the singular is, but yeah, punchki. You would

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never get p a c z ki
from that, but Pounchki was originally from

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Poland and made on Fat Thursday,
the thursday before ash Wednesday. Pounschki Day

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here in Michigan is kind of a
big deal. And if you celebrate,

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put the poonskeet where you live,
let us know, because I'm curious how

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far Punski Day has spread because when
I first moved to Michigan from Chicago area,

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I had never heard of a punski
and I was like, what the

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heck is this? And it's it's
a huge thing here. So here in

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Michigan we celebrate Punski Day on Fat
Tuesday, which is the last day of

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Marti Grass, if I'm not mistaken, the day before ash Wednesday. Pounski

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was a way that people, you
know, before lentch started, they would

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want to use up their lard and
their sugar and their butter. And how

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do you would you describe a basically
a donut? Basically it's kind of like

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a jelly, like a filled donut
filled with either like jelly or custard or

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something. No, it's here,
I have it's a decade in pastry,

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deep fried and filled with fruit,
jelly cream or chocolate filling and covered with

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powdered sugar, granulated sugar, or
sugar glaze. And Poland, where Pounchkeeper

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originated, they are available year round
and typically are filled with rose, marmalade,

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cherry or strawberry jam. And Our
friend Asha, who is from Poland,

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is in Poland right now, so
I hope she is enjoying some.

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We have a lemon here, No, it's an apple and a raspberry right,

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and they're like six hundred calories each
night. I was going to say

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at least six. When I first
moved here, you were like you you

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told me they were gross. You're
like, oh, I hate them,

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they're gross. But I think you've
Oh yeah, I've never been a big

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jelly donut fan, but I yeah, they've grown on me. I think

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they're really good. Yeah. Wait, take a quick break. How was

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the punchki? It was delicious?
Which one did you prefer? I prefer

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the raspberry one. For the raspberry, oh, like the apple one had

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the cinnamon sugar on the outside.
That was pretty good. You have never

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really seen the cinnamon and sugar before. Anyway, They're a lot like a

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Bismarck that I remember what a Bismarck
was. A Bismarck is like a filled

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donut. So if you know what
a Bismarck is, it's just, you

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know, just a big, filled
round donut. But I will post a

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picture, but a happy Pooonski day
to our fellow Michiganders. It is a

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fun It's kind of a fun day
here in Michigan. Let's talk about the

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Tan family. Charlie Tan's motto is
known ceb known cebe, translated from Latin,

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means not for self. Charlie so
strongly believes in selflessness and kindness that

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he has the words tattooed on his
arm in bold black letters. Every day

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of his life, Charlie tries to
make the world a better place and puts

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others before himself. When he was
in high school, a friend made a

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short film of Charlie titled Random Acts
of Kindness. It's just ninety seconds long,

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but you get a sense of who
Charlie is in the video. Charlie

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goes through the day with his bright
smile, passing out tokens for free slices

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of pizza, and handing out roses
to random people of all ages and gender.

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Nice, very very sweet, like
if you see his he just seems

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like a lovely young man. This
sense of altruism to his family and friends

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and community cost Charlie Tan his freedom
and future after he shot and killed his

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father, who had subjected his family
to years of domestic violence. Not much

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is known about the Tan family.
And you know, I looked really hard.

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I know you did. Charlie's parents, Liang and Chiang Tan, were

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both born in a small village in
China. Their marriage was arranged. After

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marriage, they emigrated to Canada and
had their two sons, Jeff and Charlie.

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While the Tans lived in Canada,
police once responded to an incident of

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domestic violence at their home. Chiang
and her two sons were moved to a

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shelter to diffuse the situation. Jeff
is about two and a half years older

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than Charlie and he remembered the situation, but Charlie did not. When Charlie

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was seven, the Tans moved to
the US. Liang and Chiung a the

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names of Jim and Jane. The
Tans moved to upstate New York to a

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small suburb of Rochester called Pittsford.
They lived in an affluent neighborhood in a

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large, well manicured home at thirty
seven coach Side Drive. Jean was a

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loving, devoted, stay at home
mom, while Jim was always working and

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wasn't seen often with his wife or
sons, but when he was home there

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were frequent loud fights that sometimes became
physical. Jim Tann was five tenants,

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slender with dark hair and eyes.
He was a fastidious man in his appearance

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and demeanor. He liked to start
the day by swimming laps at the YMCA.

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Jim held a doctorate in semiconductors and
microelectronics. He had lived in China,

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England, Ireland, and Canada before
moving to the United States. He

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was the founder and CEO of a
successful tech company called Dynamax Imaging. Founded

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in two thousand and three, Dynamax
produced image sensors. It was originally a

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small division of Panavias, a California
based company that made digital camera lenses.

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In late twenty twelve, mister Tan
acquired Panavisions Technology and incorporated it into his

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company, Dynamac's Imaging. Before starting
his company, Jim had worked at Kodak

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for twenty years, His tumultuous history
at Kodak was marked by complaints about his

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aggressive behavior from coworkers and subordinates.
Despite the outward appearance of success, Jim

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Tann was a demanding and abusive figure. Customers and coworkers complained about his rude,

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aggressive behavior and tried to have him
removed from his job. Former employees

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called him a condescending and brutal boss. Michael Sullivan, a senior production manager

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at Dynamacs who had also worked with
Jim at Kodak, said he was a

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bully who tried to intimidate him.
He said Jim Tann liked to pit his

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employees against each other, creating a
hostile work environment. He frequently belittled his

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employees in front of each other,
was prone to tantrums and throwing things around

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the office. Have you ever thrown
things around the office? I have not,

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but I have worked for people who
were, yes, a little bit,

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and the company name was actually very
similar. I'm not going to say

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more than that. Despite being a
chaotic workplace, Dynamax was successful and had

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recently announced it would be expanding into
New York City and adding one hundred jobs.

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At a press conference with Governor Andrew
Cuomo, Jim Tans said, quote.

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By tapping into the world class first
rate capabilities with the most advanced semiconductor

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equipment, we look forward to advancing
our innovative image sensor technologies, developing new

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products, and establishing new partnerships,
all of which will enable the company to

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grow and flourish and maintain the reputation
of New York as the imaging capital of

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the world unquote. About half of
Dynamax's business was in Asia. Jim frequently

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worked until three am to meet with
his Asian customers. Although the company appeared

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to be thriving, it was hit
with a lawsuit from Pangaea Limited, a

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Hong Kong company, in twenty fifteen. They alleged that in twenty thirteen,

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Jim Tan borrowed over a million dollars
to fund capital costs and operating expenses.

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The lawsuit stated that Tan acknowledged having
received the loans, but that in January

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twenty fourteen, Tan quote advised Pangaea
that Dynamax had no cash left to run,

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and that shortly thereafter and thenceforward,
Dynamax ceased all contact with Pangaea unquote.

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So Jim sounds kind of like a
tough guy to work with, a

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tough guy to live with. Not
the nicest person, no. Charlie Tan

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attended Pittsford Mendon High School, where
he excelled in all areas. He played

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football, was class president and or
in top grades. He was a hard

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worker and a frequent volunteer in the
community. He was known for his outgrowing

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personality and big smile. However,
his family life was a well kept secret,

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shielded from even his closest friends.
Due to Jim's strict control. Neighbors

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of the Tans witnessed frequent domestic disputes, with police often intervening. However,

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no charges were formally filed. Charlie
and Jeff tried to diffuse the arguments,

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but Jim ignored their please. The
violence got worse after Jeff left for college,

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and Charlie worried it would escalate further
after he left for college, and

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he was afraid that he wouldn't be
there to intervene and help his mom out.

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Sounds like Jim was physical with Jane, but not the boys, like

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he yelled at the boys, and
he was very controlling, and Charlie viewed

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himself as his mom's protector, I
guess, and yeah, that was whole.

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You know. Charlie's personality is just
to protect people that were that needed

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protecting, right. Jim Tan did
not allow Jeff and Charlie to have friends

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at the house, and that was
fine with Charlie because he was so busy

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between school and sports and his other
activities. His friend's parents adored him,

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so he was often invited for dinner, and so he just wasn't home as

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much as Jeff was. Between two
thousand and three and twenty fifteen, eighteen

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calls were replaced to nine to one
one from the Tann home. Initially,

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the substance of the calls was not
made public, and it was assumed that

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the calls were made by Jane calling
for help during domestic arguments and abuse.

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However, the Democrat and Chronicle newspaper
found through their FOIA request that most of

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the calls were actually placed by Jim. Several calls were regarding arguments with Jeff.

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Jeff was more rebellious and boisterous than
Charlie. He wasn't afraid to stand

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up to his father, and he
received more of Jim's ire and abuse than

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Charlie. And middle school once Jeff
attempted suicide and his father later ridiculed him

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for it. And again, Charlie
was just good at avoiding those situations because

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he wasn't home a lot. How
do you ridicule your son for attempting suicide?

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You're a horrible, horrible man right. In one of the calls,

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Jim accused Jane of stealing some of
his important business papers. In another call,

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he said, Jean scratched him.
Oh can you imagine calling nine one?

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Jim called nine one one after he
thought Jeff had poisoned his food one

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time. And all of these eighteen
calls that were made to nine one one

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from the tannhouse, there were never
once any formal charges filed, and no

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one was ever arrested. Neighbors recalled
hearing frequent yelling coming from the Tann home,

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even when all the doors and windows
were closed. Charlie had always dreamed

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of attending an Ivy League college.
He was thrilled when he gained admittance to

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Cornell University in Ithaca, New York. And Ithaca was about I think one

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hundred miles from their home in Pittsford. In the winter of twenty fifteen,

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Charlie nineteen, was a sophomore at
the College in Agriculture and Life Sciences,

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where he maintained a three point four
GPA. Charlie, at one hundred and

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sixty five pounds, was considered too
small to play regular collegiate football, so

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he played on a sprint and football
team, which is still considered regulation.

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College football played under the same rules
and regulations, but all the players must

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be under one hundred and seventy eight
pounds. I've never heard of that.

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00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:27.960
It's kind of a great idea,
right it is. So it's it's not

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00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:32.600
flag football, it's just it's regular
football. But just you can't be over

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one hundred questions. Yeah, the
only other thing I read was that it's

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a faster paced game. Okay,
So that's all I can tell you about.

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00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:45.679
I think it sounds like a nice
idea. Charlie was also a member

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of the Chi five fraternity. While
Charlie was away at Cornell, he compartmentalized

215
00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:53.840
his life at college from his life
at home, but his mother's calls and

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00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:59.759
texts escalated in late twenty fourteen and
early twenty fifteen. She had become in

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00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:06.240
recently increasingly frightened and panicked, as
Charlie had feared Jim had become more physical

218
00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:11.240
since he'd left for Cornel. Jean
leaned heavily on Charlie for support, calling

219
00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:15.720
him after every fight, which I
can understand she needed support. But yeah,

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00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:18.920
that's really sadly. This really has
this opportunity to break away and become

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00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:23.440
his own person, but he just
felt obligated. I'm sure. Yeah.

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00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:29.599
January twenty eighth, twenty fifteen,
Jean called nine one one after Jim became

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00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:37.440
physical with her once again. Here's
the nine one one call. Yes,

224
00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:41.480
hi, man, I was the
Jing and I'm at the thirty seven Coach

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00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:49.240
Final and my husband just beats me
up. I need you expections. Are

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00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:57.279
you injured? Yes, I'm He
choked me and I'm so scared. Please

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00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:15.920
please help all no, please please
all right here, just my wife agument

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00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:18.599
of sex. Okay, so let
me explain that. It's a little hard

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00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:22.759
to understand. But Geene is calling
nine one one. She's saying, my

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00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:26.440
husband just beat me up, Please
come help me. And then Jim comes

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00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:30.039
walking up and I don't I think
that She hung up the phone, and

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00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:34.079
then he called back and he said, oh, everything's fine. Here we

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00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:38.160
just had a little fight. But
luckily the police decided to you know,

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00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:41.799
they had to do Yeah, they
had to come to the house. The

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00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:45.240
officer came to the house and he
said he did notice that there were some

236
00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:51.039
red marks on her neck, but
nothing that you know, made him want

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00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:53.960
to arrest him. He said to
Jim, you should probably leave for the

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night, calm down, get a
hotel room, and that's what he did.

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00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.119
After the police left and Jim left, Jean called Charlie and she told

240
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:08.240
him about the latest attack. The
January twenty eighth call was kind of the

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00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:12.559
first and the timeline events of events
that unfolded that I'm going to have you

242
00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:18.920
read now, okay. On February
fourth of twenty fifteen, Jean called Charlie

243
00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:22.960
and told him that Jim was becoming
more aggressive and feared that he would soon

244
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kill her. He told his mother
to stay in the bedroom and lock the

245
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door until Jim calmed down. On
Thursday, February fifth of twenty fifteen,

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00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:36.279
Charlie stopped in to see his football
coach, Terry Cullen. Coach Colin was

247
00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:40.720
also Charlie's academic advisor, so he
knew him well. Charlie told him he

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00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:42.799
wouldn't be able to make it to
team weightlifting the next day because he had

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00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:47.759
to go home to take care of
a family matter. Coach Colin noted that

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00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:51.519
Charlie was on the verge of tears. He asked if he could help Charlie

251
00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:56.039
with anything. Charlie declined and said
there was nothing he could do. Coach

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00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:59.119
asked Charlie to call him later to
let him know that he got home okay,

253
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but he never. Charlie made the
one hundred mile drive to Pittsford in

254
00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:07.640
the late afternoon. He had dinner
with his friend Anna Valentine. She later

255
00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:12.319
told investigators that Charlie seemed normal.
After dinner, he went to see his

256
00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:18.680
friend Jacob Grossman. His friend could
tell that something was up. Charlie seemed

257
00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:22.279
distressed. He told Jacob he might
need to leave the country and asked if

258
00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:26.680
he had any cash that he could
borrow. Earlier in the day, Charlie

259
00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:30.519
had gone to the bank near campus
and emptied his account. He told to

260
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:36.359
tell her that he was leaving school. Jacob and his mom were so concerned

261
00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:38.680
Charlie was going to harm himself that
they called nine one one. After he

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00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:44.279
left at ten fifty pm, and
requested that police do a welfare check.

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Here's a clip on that one.
He didn't give us a lot of details.

264
00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:52.440
I'm just worried that she might do
something at his house, you know,

265
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:56.200
if anything's going to happen. But
I just can't take a chair.

266
00:20:56.079 --> 00:21:03.119
I'm going to house and check on
him. The Grossmans drove to Charlie's house

267
00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:07.519
and waited until the police arrived.
Deputy Steve Williams arrived at the tannhouse at

268
00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:12.400
eleven forty six pm. Officer Williams
noted that Charlie and Jean appeared to be

269
00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:18.000
headed out the door. Charlie talked
with the officer and admitted he was going

270
00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:22.519
through some things, but he was
fine and his friend had overreacted. He

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00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:25.880
said he'd come home for the weekend
to talk with friends and see his family.

272
00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:30.240
He assured the officer that he would
be okay. The officer did not

273
00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:34.640
go into the tannhouse. Deputy Williams
noted that Charlie was calm and well spoken.

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00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:38.720
He asked Charlie if he planned on
hurting anyone, and he said no,

275
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I love my parents. Days later, the deputy would realize in horror

276
00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:48.920
that mister Tan was likely already dead
during this visit. Investigators believed that Charlie

277
00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:55.640
killed his father shortly after he returned
from Jacob's house. Charlie and Jean left

278
00:21:55.680 --> 00:22:00.200
Pittsford after the visit from Deputy Williams
and drove to Toronto, Canada, where

279
00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:04.119
they spent the weekend. Jeff flew
to Toronto from Denver and stayed with his

280
00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:10.319
brother and mother for the weekend.
Charlie and Jean applied for Chinese travel visas

281
00:22:10.359 --> 00:22:15.759
and purchased one way tickets to Shanghai, China. One way tickets huh.

282
00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:19.759
They planned to depart on Monday,
February fifth. However, when Monday came,

283
00:22:19.880 --> 00:22:25.559
the Tans nervously reconsidered the plan.
Charlie didn't want to leave Jeff alone

284
00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:29.599
in the United States to face the
consequences of his father's death by himself.

285
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:33.960
Begrudgingly, Charlie and Jean drove back
to the US and formulated a new plan

286
00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:40.000
on the way, not necessarily a
good plan. When Charlie missed practice on

287
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:45.039
Monday, Coach Clin texted Charlie,
but he didn't respond. Charlie sent his

288
00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:49.119
fraternity brothers an email with the subject
showtime on February ninth, twenty fifteen,

289
00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:55.400
at five thirteen pm. It read
my brothers. In the coming days,

290
00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:57.759
you'll start to hear things in the
news and possibly get a couple of visits

291
00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:03.559
from the authorities. Don't listen to
anything you hear if you already know my

292
00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:07.000
true story, and in due time
you will also. I love you all

293
00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:11.519
so much, and you have given
me the family I never had. I

294
00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:14.680
can only hope I have left a
positive impression on all of your lives.

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00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:18.319
As well known Sebee, how I
like to think my actions reflect in the

296
00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:23.039
whole scheme of things. Thank you
for teaching me this lesson special thanks to

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00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:26.960
Chevera for letting me steal the location
on my arm. I think he means

298
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.839
for the tattoo. Ah Okay,
the best days are ahead of all of

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us, and I promise I will
be back in the future. In the

300
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:38.039
meantime, I hope you will visit
as always. Fuck the haters, Love

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00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:45.079
Charlie Tan. Interesting note. It's
an interesting note in the subject line showtime.

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00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:48.119
I think that's kind of bothersome to
you. It's strange. Yeah,

303
00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:52.680
what do you think showtime means?
Think he means that he just killed his

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00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:57.480
dad? And you know it's I
don't really know what he means, just

305
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:02.880
it is just an ad word choice
for sure. Yeah, but let's just

306
00:24:02.920 --> 00:24:07.279
remember Charlie is nineteen and smart kid, but you know, makes bad decisions.

307
00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:12.200
When Charlie and Jean returned to Pittsford, Gene Tan called nine one one

308
00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:18.480
at six nine pm. Here's a
clip. Nine one one is the guys

309
00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:26.799
with the emergency yes him to say, did you say you heard a shot

310
00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:34.319
and this is your son? Are
you want to say? Spot, Yes,

311
00:24:36.279 --> 00:24:38.799
he's trying to protecting me. Your
son was trying to protect you.

312
00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:45.559
Yeah. Jean obviously very upset there, overwrought with emotion. It's kind of

313
00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:48.559
hard to understand, but she says, you know, my son shot my

314
00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:52.960
husband. My husband or my son
was protecting me. And how how long

315
00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:57.880
after the actual shooting was this,
Well, this is Monday evening and we

316
00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:02.920
believe that Jim w shot on Thursday. Okay, so they left, they

317
00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:06.519
came back a couple days later,
and so Jane is pretending that this just

318
00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:11.599
happened, right, And as you
know, a lot of things happened to

319
00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:15.480
a body at a crime scene three
or four days. So the police arrived

320
00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:19.880
at thirty seven coach side drive and
found Charlie and Jean waiting in the driveway

321
00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:25.799
with their arms raised over their heads. Charlie told one of the responding officers,

322
00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:27.559
I had to do it. He
was going to kill my mom.

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00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:33.000
This would later be considered a confession. Officers assumed the shooting was an act

324
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:37.119
of self defense, but when they
entered the home, nothing seemed out of

325
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:41.759
order until they got to Jim's office, they found him slumped on the floor

326
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:47.160
under his desk. Investigators soon realized
that mister Tan had been shot days earlier.

327
00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:49.759
The house had begun to smell of
decay, and the blood stains were

328
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:55.359
dry. It was estimated he had
been dead for four days. On Jim's

329
00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:59.079
computer, an email from February fifth
was open. It appeared to be the

330
00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:03.079
last email he read. No email
received after February fifth had been opened.

331
00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:08.880
So it's kind of crazy that they
thought this was gonna work. Yeah,

332
00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:11.319
they didn't really think that through,
did they. No. But I'm glad

333
00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:15.519
that they came back and, you
know, faced the music. But had

334
00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:18.880
Charlie shot his dad on Thursday and
then told the police, I think maybe

335
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:22.559
things would have ended a little differently, right, we'll be back after a

336
00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:33.599
break. I'm glad we took that
break so i could finish my punch,

337
00:26:34.359 --> 00:26:40.640
trying to trying to eat all of
raspberry PUNCHKI good. Yeah, I think

338
00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:42.799
Raspberry's got to be the up there. I wish we would have gotten a

339
00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:47.720
chocolate one. Yeah, me too. Okay, let's go back after.

340
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:52.079
We need to find the eighth that
we got. Anyway, let's let's get

341
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:55.119
back to the tank, all right. Well. Investigating the crime scene,

342
00:26:55.160 --> 00:27:00.119
police found three gun casing in Jim's
office. There had been no attempt to

343
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:03.160
clean them up. One of the
shell casings had Charlie's fingerprints on it,

344
00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:10.200
but investigators weren't certain who shot Jim, and they were wondering if Charlie could

345
00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:14.599
have been covering up for his mom. A seemingly new shotgun was found in

346
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:18.799
the garage, but it was wiped
free of Charlie's I'm sorry fingerprints or DNA.

347
00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:23.079
Jeane had an appointment card in her
pocket with a court date on it

348
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:29.960
for a domestic violence hearing scheduled on
February third. Also in Jean's pocket was

349
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:33.920
a list of local defense attorneys.
New passports were found in the tan home

350
00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:37.960
for Gene and Charlie, and police
noted that there was no signs of struggle

351
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:41.920
inside the home. Jim appeared to
have been shot at close range while he

352
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:45.880
was sitting at his desk, because, like you said, he was found

353
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:51.880
slumped under the desk. His face
was said to be unrecognizable, so the

354
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:56.640
shot one of the shots was at
very close range. Jeane and Charlie were

355
00:27:56.680 --> 00:28:00.079
driven to the police station separately for
questioning, but within minutes an attorney arrived

356
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:06.319
to represent them and shut down the
questioning, so no formal interview was ever

357
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:11.359
done. Charlie was arrested days later
for the second degree murder of his father.

358
00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:15.200
Over one hundred friends came to the
arraignment to support Charlie. They yelled

359
00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:18.799
stay strong, Charlie, and we
love you Charlie. As he was let

360
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:23.079
out of the courtroom in handcuffs,
tears were glistening in his eyes. One

361
00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:27.200
of his friends from high school,
kareem to Will, said quote, Charlie's

362
00:28:27.240 --> 00:28:30.000
a big kid in the community,
as you can see from all the people

363
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:33.079
here. He's just a great kid, and most of us feel a little

364
00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:37.880
guilty. We had a sense that
his home life wasn't that good. End

365
00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:41.119
quote. Another friend said, quote, I just want him to know he's

366
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:47.000
still got all of us end quote. They said they had never once seen

367
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:52.799
his father at a school function,
football game, or even graduation. Investigators

368
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:56.519
soon discovered that the shotgun used in
the murder was purchased at a Walmart near

369
00:28:56.599 --> 00:29:00.200
Cornell in Courtland, New York,
on February fifth, the same day that

370
00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:06.000
Charlie made the journey back home.
Charlie was refused the purchase because he is

371
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:08.400
not an American citizen, it is
not legal for him to make a same

372
00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:14.640
day purchase. Foreign Born citizens are
subject to a waiting period. Charlie asked

373
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:18.440
his friend Whitney Knickerbacker, to purchase
the gun on his behalf. Whitney is

374
00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:23.319
also from Pittsford and he was a
student at Cornell. He played football with

375
00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:27.960
Charlie and pledged the same fraternity,
so they were really close friends. Charlie

376
00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:33.119
explained to Whitney that he was going
at camping and hunting trip for the weekend

377
00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:37.799
and he needed a gun. No
one had ever seen Charlie on a hunting

378
00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:41.960
trip his whole life, but Whitney
purchased the gun and gave it to Charlie

379
00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:48.039
before he drove home to Pittsford.
Charlie's friend Anna Valentines started a fundraiser on

380
00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:52.359
his behalf to help pay for his
legal fees. Over fifty thousand dollars was

381
00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:55.720
raised for him in less than two
weeks. So that shows you how much

382
00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:00.200
support Charlie had amongst the community and
his friends. The advice of his lawyers,

383
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:06.000
Charlie pleaded not guilty to the second
degree murder charge. He was released

384
00:30:06.039 --> 00:30:11.920
on March fifth on fifty thousand dollars
bond until the trial began in September of

385
00:30:12.119 --> 00:30:18.400
twenty fifteen. Judge James Pimpano presided
over the trial. Pimpano was up for

386
00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:25.640
a spot on the New York Supreme
Court in the November election. We you

387
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:29.640
and I went back and forth about
this. In twenty states, Supreme Court

388
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:33.039
justices are appointed, and in twenty
four states they are elected. So in

389
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:37.680
New York they are elected, and
in Michigan they are elected, but in

390
00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:40.720
some states they are just appointed.
Why do we all have to do everything

391
00:30:40.759 --> 00:30:45.880
different? Every state is a little
different. Several employees of Jim Tands testified

392
00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:51.519
to is difficult personality and poor treatment
of them. They called him a bully

393
00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:55.880
and said he pitted his employees against
each other. One neighbor testified and call

394
00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:00.279
him, called him unfriendly and intimidating. I'm glad our neighbors don't have to

395
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:03.160
have to testify in court about us. Another neighbor of the Tans wrote a

396
00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:07.400
letter to the judge in support of
Charlie. She called Jim controlling and quick

397
00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:11.519
tempered. She said she often saw
Jeane Tan with bruises on her arms.

398
00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:15.799
She continued that after fighting with Jean, Jim had canceled her credit cards,

399
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:22.440
telephone, and internet on multiple occasions. Not one person came to the trial

400
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:26.720
in support of Jim tann Or testified
on his behalf, which is very telling.

401
00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:27.880
Yeah, that's saying something. Yeah, they can't fight, they can't

402
00:31:27.880 --> 00:31:33.240
dig one person from his past.
Charlie's lawyers tried to downplay his earlier admission

403
00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:37.640
of guilt. They argued that when
Charlie said, quote, I had to

404
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:40.559
do it, he was going to
kill my mom, he could have meant

405
00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:44.759
anything like he could have meant,
you know, I bought the gun because

406
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:47.920
I had to buy the gun because
my dad was going to kill my mom.

407
00:31:48.039 --> 00:31:52.920
Okay, stretch. But the defense
pointed to the lack of fingerprints on

408
00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:56.359
the gun, They argued there was
insufficient evidence to convict Charlie. In a

409
00:31:56.400 --> 00:32:00.440
surprising twist, the defense alleged that
Jane Tan was the shooter. She had

410
00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:06.279
the motive, not Charlie, they
argued. Coach Colin testified at the trial

411
00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:09.599
and called Charlie quote a very positive
and a really good guy, and several

412
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:15.400
other people were character with witnesses for
Charlie as well. The prosecution argued that

413
00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:20.359
mister Tan was not a danger to
his family. There were no defensive wounds,

414
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:23.079
and it appeared that he had been
shot not in defense, but in

415
00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:28.680
cold and premeditated fashion. So this
is where you know, the police had

416
00:32:28.720 --> 00:32:32.319
been to the home multiple times,
but because there had never been any formal

417
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:37.319
charges or an arrest, that kind
of came back to hurt them. It

418
00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:40.720
was kind of mind boggling that they
did go there so many times and yet

419
00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:45.559
there was no arrest. Like you
said earlier, like they saw red marks

420
00:32:45.559 --> 00:32:49.559
around her neck, but they didn't
make an arrest. That seems irresponsible to

421
00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:52.920
me. Well, that's the problem
with domestic violence. You know, it's

422
00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:55.839
hard to prove it. And a
lot of times he said, she said,

423
00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:59.799
and yeah, yeah, policed,
and there were red marks, but

424
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:02.759
if they weren't, there weren't bruises. She wasn't bleeding, you know,

425
00:33:02.920 --> 00:33:07.480
and you know she maybe they were
thinking like she could have done it for

426
00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:13.400
herself. Yeah. The trial lasted
four weeks before the nearly all female jury

427
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:19.680
began deliberations on September twenty ninth.
Deliberations lasted fifty hours over six days.

428
00:33:20.200 --> 00:33:23.440
During the deliberation, the jury sent
the judge over two dozen notes. Sometimes

429
00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:29.880
they requested to review evidence or asked
for clarification on a role, but the

430
00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:34.240
jury was at a standstill. Eight
voted for a conviction and four for an

431
00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:39.279
acquittal. Judge James Pampiano issued the
jury and all in charge, which I've

432
00:33:39.319 --> 00:33:44.559
never heard of, which is an
instruction for the jury to continue deliberations and

433
00:33:44.599 --> 00:33:50.400
a request for those in the minority
to reconsider their position in hopes of avoiding

434
00:33:50.440 --> 00:33:53.519
a hang jury. Interesting, pan
Piano said to the jury, quote,

435
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:58.559
start with a fresh slate. Did
not feel bound by how you felt before,

436
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:02.680
whether you favor conviction or acquittal.
Have the courage to be flexible.

437
00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:07.519
I don't like that at all.
Like I understand not wanting a hung jury,

438
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:12.559
but and this this would be a
hard case to deliberate. Yeah,

439
00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:15.719
yeah, for sure. If the
jury failed to reach a unanimous decision,

440
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:20.679
the judge would be forced to declare
a mistrial and the case would have to

441
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:25.760
be retried. Nevertheless, after day
six, a mistrial was declared. The

442
00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:30.960
jurors were shocked and kind of disappointed
because they thought they would eventually come to

443
00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:36.280
a consensus, but the judge pressured
them to wrap things up. Here's a

444
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:40.039
clip. I had no words.
I was in total shock that he would

445
00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:45.639
decide that, and in my heart, I didn't feel that justice was served

446
00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:47.719
at all. I don't think it
says a lot of good things about the

447
00:34:47.800 --> 00:34:51.760
justice system, only because it is. It was thought to be a trial

448
00:34:51.800 --> 00:34:54.679
by jury and the end it was
basically a trial by judge's decision, and

449
00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:58.559
I don't think that's the way things
are supposed to go. I don't know

450
00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:01.360
how long that you're supposed to a
jury. But they really did believe that

451
00:35:01.400 --> 00:35:05.960
they would have come to a consensus
at one point. Well weren't they.

452
00:35:06.199 --> 00:35:08.599
Did the judge tell them they had
to stop and declare a mistrial or did

453
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:13.599
they to judge stop them? Oh? Okay, they were at a standstill.

454
00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:15.239
But like those jurors said, you
know, they really thought they were

455
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:17.880
going to get there. That is
strange. Yeah, I would think the

456
00:35:17.960 --> 00:35:22.000
judge would want them to take as
long as it took, because if you

457
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:27.800
have to do a retrial, that's
a huge expense in Cassle for everyone involved.

458
00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:30.679
We'll hold on to your hat.
Hearing on November fifth, twenty fifteen,

459
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:35.880
was held to determine how to proceed
with a new trial. Judge Pampiano

460
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:40.159
had won the Supreme Court seat just
days before, the state had every intent

461
00:35:40.280 --> 00:35:45.039
to retry Charlie for his father's murder. The defense moved he to dismiss the

462
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:50.320
charges against Charlie, which you know
is routine and done in almost every trial.

463
00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:54.320
Judge Pampiano, in a move that
shocked the entire courtroom, agreed with

464
00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:59.679
the defense and dismissed the charges against
Charlie. Wow. He cited the lack

465
00:35:59.719 --> 00:36:05.920
of against him and declared a second
trial unnecessary. Charlie and his supporters were

466
00:36:05.960 --> 00:36:08.760
thrilled he was suddenly a free man
with a bright future in front of him

467
00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:15.920
again. Assistant DA Bill Gargan,
however, was fuming as I could imagine.

468
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:19.480
Yeah, he interrupted the judge While
he was speaking, he accused Judge

469
00:36:19.480 --> 00:36:23.880
Pampiano of having amnesia and reminded him
that Charlie had admitted to killing his father,

470
00:36:24.280 --> 00:36:28.639
that his mother admitted that Charlie was
guilty, and that they had tried

471
00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:32.639
to flee the country. Here's a
clip of prosecutor gargain. Because amnesia means

472
00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:40.639
you've forgotten things. And when it
appeared that the court had not utilized other

473
00:36:40.760 --> 00:36:46.079
evidence in the record, I wanted
to point that out. The judge told

474
00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:50.519
him he needed to take back his
comments, and he refused. The judge

475
00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:54.320
threatened to have him arrested if he
didn't sit down and be quiet. Judge

476
00:36:54.880 --> 00:37:00.880
said that he would put me in
handcuffs, and the judge of yelling into

477
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:07.480
the microphone. I don't think in
any moment I crossed the line of professionalism.

478
00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:14.199
How surd his decision is in light
of the evidence of a law.

479
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:20.760
So that's pretty unprecedented to threaten a
prosecutor with being jailed. Yeah, it's

480
00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:25.159
pretty crazy. So Charlie was officially
a free man. He faced a disciplinary

481
00:37:25.239 --> 00:37:30.480
hearing at Cornell to be reinstated by
the university, but Charlie decided not to

482
00:37:30.519 --> 00:37:37.079
return. It was unlikely that he
would regain admission. He formally withdrew from

483
00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:40.960
Cornell, but Charlie was determined to
finish his education. He applied to twenty

484
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:46.639
four different colleges. Chicago State University
was the only one to grant him admittance

485
00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:52.880
and that's where he went. Judge
James Pampiano advanced to the Supreme Court,

486
00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:58.159
but his decision to dismiss the case
against Charlie was heavily scrutinized. An appellant

487
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:04.480
court ruled it wrong and legally unsound. However, the court ruled that Charlie

488
00:38:04.599 --> 00:38:07.559
could not be tried again for a
murder because of double jeopardy laws, But

489
00:38:07.719 --> 00:38:14.119
unfortunately for Charlie, the case did
not end there. It's interesting that I

490
00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:17.880
guess I don't fully understand double jeopardy
laws, but he wasn't actually tried and

491
00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:23.920
acquitted. Right, the judge dismissed
the case, but still the double jeopardy

492
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:28.039
laws applied. They couldn't try it
and try them again for the same crime.

493
00:38:28.599 --> 00:38:32.440
Interesting, I did wonder again,
not a lawyer, I don't play

494
00:38:32.440 --> 00:38:38.159
one on TV, but could he
have been tried written involuntary manslaughter or manslaughter

495
00:38:38.440 --> 00:38:44.639
rather than secondary murder? Yeah?
You would think. Judge James Pampiano was

496
00:38:44.679 --> 00:38:50.280
formally censured in twenty seventeen by the
Commission on Judicial Conduct for having used questionable

497
00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:53.000
judgment. If you're a judge,
you probably should not use questionable judgment.

498
00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:58.960
The panel was dismayed by public comments
that he made to the media after Charlie's

499
00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:04.639
trial. He referred to Charlie as
a sympathetic figure, but he is Yeah.

500
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:08.079
The panel ruled that the judge quote
violated ethics when he threatened a handcuff

501
00:39:08.119 --> 00:39:14.519
and Jaella prosecutor for attempting to address
him when he granted a defense motion to

502
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:19.719
dismiss a murder charge end quote.
The formal censure is the harshest punishment for

503
00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:24.239
a judge short of removal from the
bench. Judge Pampiano accepted responsibility for his

504
00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:30.599
actions. He served as a Supreme
Court justice until his retirement on December thirty

505
00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:35.760
first, twenty twenty. It's pretty
crazy for a Supreme Court justice. I

506
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:38.840
know it's just a state Supreme court, but to get censured in that way,

507
00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:43.800
yeah, pretty serious. Yeah,
and maybe that's why he didn't serve

508
00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:47.719
for a super long time. I
don't know. Prosecutors were frustrated and angered

509
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:52.480
when the case against Charlie was dropped. They believed he killed his father in

510
00:39:52.519 --> 00:39:57.079
premeditated cold blood. They did not
believe it was a crime of passion or

511
00:39:57.119 --> 00:40:00.519
an act of self defense. They
were determined that he should receive prison time,

512
00:40:00.599 --> 00:40:05.360
but the rule of double jeopardy applied
and Charlie could not again be tried

513
00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:10.320
for murder. Prosecutors decided to get
creative and pursue him on federal weapons charges.

514
00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:15.679
The shotgun used to kill Jim Tan
had been illegally acquired from Walmart.

515
00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:17.960
Oh boy, it seems like the
person who would be liable for that though,

516
00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:22.039
would be the person who bought the
shotgun, not Charlie. But I

517
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:25.960
guess both of them could be in
trouble for that right. Yes, Prosecutors

518
00:40:25.960 --> 00:40:30.679
got lucky when surveillance footage was found
that clearly showed Charlie attempting to purchase a

519
00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:37.760
shotgun on February fifth, and later
when his friend Whitney Knickerbocker returned to purchase

520
00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:43.719
the gun. Prosecutors approached Whitney Knickerbocker
about his participation in the purchasing of the

521
00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:47.119
shotgun. Initially, he lied and
said the gun was for his personal use,

522
00:40:47.639 --> 00:40:52.840
but later agreed to cooperate to avoid
any legal action. Meanwhile, Charlie

523
00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:58.360
had moved back to Canada and laid
low. Authorities in the US weren't sure

524
00:40:58.360 --> 00:41:01.880
of his whereabouts, but in Septembermber
of twenty seventeen, Charlie was invited to

525
00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:06.679
a friend's wedding. When he attempted
to re enter the US, he was

526
00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:12.039
arrested at a border crossing. On
September twenty second, Charlie was indicted on

527
00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:17.599
three federal gun charges related to a
Model eight seventy twelve gage shotgun, Winchester

528
00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:23.679
twelve gage ammunition and Federal twelve gage
shotgun ammunition. So two different types of

529
00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:29.840
amias. I don't know why there
is that much ammunition. These charges encompassed

530
00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:34.199
receiving a firearm with intent to commit
an offense and two counts of making false

531
00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:42.400
statements during the attempted gun purchase.
So they nailed Charlie unlying basically like you

532
00:41:42.440 --> 00:41:47.320
know, he was falsifying the application. Right faced with these new charges,

533
00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:52.039
Charlie, now twenty three, pleaded
not guilty. While awaiting trial, he

534
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:57.360
changed his mind and decided to plead
guilty to the weapons charge rather than face

535
00:41:57.400 --> 00:42:02.719
another trial. The sentencing guideline range
from five to twenty five years. Charlie's

536
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:07.119
lawyers argued for a reduced sentence of
five years in a pre trial motion due

537
00:42:07.159 --> 00:42:13.280
to his good character and the challenging
circumstances he faced as a nineteen year old.

538
00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:19.400
Despite Charlie's attorney's pleased for leniency,
they were unsuccessful. Coaches, family,

539
00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:22.800
and friends filled the courtroom, once
again, providing overwhelming support for him.

540
00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:29.760
The judge called Charlie quote an extremely
disturbed individual unquote and sentenced him to

541
00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:35.639
twenty years in federal prison. That's
wow, that's a lot a lot.

542
00:42:35.719 --> 00:42:38.360
Yeah, and a weapons charge.
Yeah. I guess you would call that

543
00:42:38.440 --> 00:42:43.760
a trumped up weapons charge right well, pretty much. Yeah, they found

544
00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:49.840
a reason to prosecute him. Federal
regulations stipulate that at least eighty five percent

545
00:42:49.880 --> 00:42:54.119
of the sentence must be served,
making Charlie eligible for parole after seventeen years

546
00:42:54.960 --> 00:43:00.440
upon release. Deportation to Canada remains
a likely outcome for Chow Charlie. Oh

547
00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:05.599
or not done yet? Do you
think justice has been served here? Boy?

548
00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:07.880
It's really It's a tough one for
me. I mean it, yeah,

549
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:12.920
I feel a lot of empathy for
Charlie and the situation he was in,

550
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:15.639
But at the same time, you
can't take the law into your own

551
00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:20.639
hands. In twenty nineteen, Charlie, still hoping to have his sentence reduced,

552
00:43:20.760 --> 00:43:24.159
confessed to shooting his father. I
think prosecutors had been waiting for this

553
00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:28.559
moment. They're like, you know, just admit it. Charlie submitted a

554
00:43:28.639 --> 00:43:31.440
lengthy affidavit along with a personal letter
to the judge. In his appeal,

555
00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:36.360
Charlie made it clear that he felt
as if he had no other choice but

556
00:43:36.440 --> 00:43:39.639
to shoot his father or Jim Tann
likely would have killed his mother, and

557
00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:44.039
a letter to the judge, Charlie
wrote, quote, all I knew is

558
00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:49.360
that my mother was unusually defeated and
repeatedly told me that he was going to

559
00:43:49.480 --> 00:43:52.079
kill her. I felt that there
was no other option that I had to

560
00:43:52.119 --> 00:43:58.440
protect her. Rather than digest the
situation and any other possible alternatives, I

561
00:43:58.480 --> 00:44:02.719
acted on impulse, leading to my
series of immature and irrational decisions. I

562
00:44:02.840 --> 00:44:07.440
entered my parents' home through the back
door, walked upstairs, turned into my

563
00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:10.599
father's office, and shot my father
three times as he was sitting at his

564
00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:16.280
desk. I knew I had killed
him. Charlie cited an effective counsel during

565
00:44:16.280 --> 00:44:22.320
his trial and claimed his previous attorneys
who represented him during the murder trial and

566
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:27.199
later during the weapons charged failed to
provide the full extent of the domestic violence

567
00:44:27.320 --> 00:44:31.880
history and abuse his family had experienced, and also advised him not to admit

568
00:44:31.960 --> 00:44:36.559
his guilt. He said that he'd
wanted it initially. He was like,

569
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:39.440
I'm just going to plead guilty,
and they dissuaded him from doing that.

570
00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:45.719
They also accused the judge of not
considering Charlie's age when he killed his father.

571
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:49.880
That is hard because in the law, like the minute you turn eighteen,

572
00:44:50.159 --> 00:44:53.559
you're an adult, and as we
know of parents of young adults,

573
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:58.360
that's not how it works. Don't
at eighteen, you know, become brain

574
00:44:58.480 --> 00:45:02.480
is not suddenly a mature a right. So I'm going to read you part

575
00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:07.360
of the affidavit just so. These
are Charlie's words. For as long as

576
00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:10.840
I can remember, my father would
abuse my mother by shoving her, slapping

577
00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:15.440
her, choking her, and pulling
her hair. Sometimes I would see them

578
00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:19.079
fighting, and other times I would
hear them behind closed doors and would see

579
00:45:19.079 --> 00:45:23.559
my mother's bruises afterwards. While there
were calmer periods where months passed without learning

580
00:45:24.360 --> 00:45:30.039
about any further abuse. The abuse
always resumed and occurred regularly. He would

581
00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:35.119
yell at my mother and smash things, throwing pots and pans or breaking chairs.

582
00:45:35.679 --> 00:45:38.480
I remember spending my sixth or seventh
birthday in a women's shelter and feeling

583
00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:44.599
relieved to be there because it was
anything was better than being home with all

584
00:45:44.599 --> 00:45:49.000
the fighting and abuse. Several times
the abuse was so bad that my mother

585
00:45:49.079 --> 00:45:52.400
or Jeoff would call the police.
The police would usually tell my father to

586
00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:55.400
leave for a few days, which
he would do. Sometimes when he left,

587
00:45:55.440 --> 00:46:00.000
he would shut off utilities as well
as cable phone and into service to

588
00:46:00.079 --> 00:46:05.480
our home. Starting around sixth grade, my father abused my mother more severely

589
00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:08.400
in my presence, laying his hands
on my mother, choking her, slapping

590
00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:13.320
her, and pulling her hair.
Abuse got worse in high school after Jeff

591
00:46:13.320 --> 00:46:17.280
went to college. During Thanksgiving break
of twenty fourteen, I saw my father

592
00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:21.480
choke my mother on the kitchen floor
and threaten to kill her. I pulled

593
00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:24.199
my father off my mother, who
ran out of the kitchen. My father's

594
00:46:24.199 --> 00:46:29.719
face was red and he said,
she's crazy, this bitch. I told

595
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:34.000
him he couldn't do this. After
Thanksgiving, I returned to school and tried

596
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:37.119
to forget about this incident and act
as if things were normal, even though

597
00:46:37.119 --> 00:46:42.320
I knew they were not. After
this incident, I told my mother I

598
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:45.519
would not be coming home for the
Christmas holiday, and that she should go

599
00:46:45.559 --> 00:46:49.559
and stay with Jeff in Colorado.
My mother, brother, and I did

600
00:46:49.960 --> 00:46:54.159
spend part of the holiday together in
Colorado, away from my father. I

601
00:46:54.159 --> 00:46:59.320
do not specifically recall my mother telling
me during that Christmas break that she thought

602
00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:01.880
she would soon die or be killed, or that if something happened to her,

603
00:47:01.880 --> 00:47:07.400
my father was to blame. However, she had conveyed such fears to

604
00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:12.079
me multiple times. My father had
also told me numerous times that he wanted

605
00:47:12.119 --> 00:47:15.599
to kill my mother. I have
reviewed with my present attorney's a December twenty

606
00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:21.000
fourth, twenty fourteen, email in
which he wrote to me, quote sometimes

607
00:47:21.039 --> 00:47:24.559
I really want to kill her.
He had said such things to me many

608
00:47:24.599 --> 00:47:29.960
times before. On the night of
January twenty eighth, twenty fifteen, my

609
00:47:30.039 --> 00:47:32.360
mother called me and told me that
my father had choked her, that she

610
00:47:32.599 --> 00:47:37.159
had lost consciousness, and that there
were red marks all over her neck.

611
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:39.559
She told me that she thought she
was going to die and believed the next

612
00:47:39.599 --> 00:47:44.800
time my father would kill her.
I immediately called my father, as I

613
00:47:44.840 --> 00:47:47.079
told the probation officer. When I
asked my father what happen, he said

614
00:47:47.119 --> 00:47:52.639
my mother was crazy and denied choking
her. Don't worry about her. She's

615
00:47:52.639 --> 00:47:57.400
fucking crazy. She scratched me.
I said, she says, you choked

616
00:47:57.400 --> 00:48:00.199
her pretty good. You can't keep
doing this. My father told me it

617
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:04.960
was none of my business and said
if she keeps pissing me off, he

618
00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:08.840
would kill her. After this conversation, I believed my father might very well

619
00:48:08.920 --> 00:48:13.679
kill my mother, either on purpose
or by accidentally choking her too hard.

620
00:48:14.199 --> 00:48:17.400
I decided I needed to protect my
mother by any means necessary, and I

621
00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:22.280
got it into my mind that that
meant killing my father. I checked in

622
00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:27.639
with her, texting about every day
matters and speaking to her approximately five minutes

623
00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:31.000
on February first, twenty fifteen,
and seven minutes on the night of February

624
00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:36.039
fourth, twenty fifteen. According to
my cell phone records disclosed by the government

625
00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:40.119
and recently reviewed by my present counsel, she told me again that she believed

626
00:48:40.199 --> 00:48:45.119
the next time my father would kill
her and sound resigned to her that fate.

627
00:48:45.840 --> 00:48:47.239
I told her to lay low,
stay in her room with the door

628
00:48:47.280 --> 00:48:52.199
locked. I knew that in killing
my father, I would be throwing away

629
00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:54.800
my future, but I wasn't thinking
of that on the February fourth call.

630
00:48:55.400 --> 00:48:59.719
I did not think past getting a
gun, shooting my father, taking my

631
00:48:59.800 --> 00:49:05.119
mind to Canada, and fleeing to
China. After I killed my father,

632
00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:07.679
I then told my mother to pack
up her things and prepared to drive with

633
00:49:07.719 --> 00:49:12.079
her to Canada. As I was
outside by my car, I saw the

634
00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:15.840
police car park by your driveway and
an officer got out. I walked to

635
00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:19.239
the front of the driveway to meet
him. I told the officer that I

636
00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:22.800
was okay and didn't plan to harm
myself or anyone else. My heart was

637
00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:25.519
racing, but I tried to stake
holme. I then drove with my mother

638
00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:30.519
to Toronto, thinking I would flee
from there to China. We picked up

639
00:49:30.519 --> 00:49:35.239
our visas on Monday, February ninth, but by then I had already decided

640
00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:38.119
to return to the US. I
made this decision because if I went to

641
00:49:38.199 --> 00:49:42.800
China, my mother and brother might
be blamed for the murder, and my

642
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:45.800
mother would be destitute and my brother
would be left alone in the US.

643
00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:51.519
On February ninth, my mother called
the police and reported that I had shot

644
00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:54.679
and killed my father in order to
protect her. And it goes on.

645
00:49:55.000 --> 00:50:00.880
But you get the you know,
yeah, you get it. Tough situation.

646
00:50:01.119 --> 00:50:07.000
It's super hard, and you know
he should Charlie have killed his father?

647
00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:12.119
No, but after years of abuse, Yeah, I can't say that.

648
00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:15.480
I really blame him. I don't
know how should he have handled it?

649
00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:19.280
I guess is the question. I'm
thinking to myself if I was in

650
00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:22.079
that situation, what would I do? And I really don't I don't know,

651
00:50:22.360 --> 00:50:28.320
right. So along with affidavit,
there were twenty seven exhibits and a

652
00:50:28.400 --> 00:50:34.559
fifty one page psychological evaluation like I
said, and he also wrote this five

653
00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:38.519
page handwritten letter to Judge Skulln.
His letter focused on three points, how

654
00:50:38.519 --> 00:50:42.800
he ended up in the current position
he was in, what he learned,

655
00:50:42.920 --> 00:50:45.840
and how he would live his life
once he has read. Charlie said that

656
00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:51.320
he realized that he had been foolish
and wished he had handled the situation differently.

657
00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:54.000
He wished he had sought out help
and not taken matters into his own

658
00:50:54.039 --> 00:50:59.400
hands. He discussed how if given
the opportunity, he would like to work

659
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:05.480
with Adoless, an open and after
school facility focusing on mentoring, athletics and

660
00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:13.480
tutoring. Assistant USDA Lisa Fletcher aggressively
maintained that mister tans murder was intentional and

661
00:51:13.559 --> 00:51:17.920
premeditated. She implored the court that
despite the number of character with witnesses and

662
00:51:17.960 --> 00:51:22.840
public support Charlie had, he should
not receive special treatment. And things were

663
00:51:22.840 --> 00:51:29.199
about to get worse for Charlie.
Prosecutors found new evidence that conflicted with Charlie's

664
00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:35.440
nice guy image. Evidence was found
that Charlie, while at Cornell sold marijuana

665
00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:40.239
and psychedelic drugs, including psilocybin,
mushrooms, and DMT. The evidence was

666
00:51:40.280 --> 00:51:46.239
found going through Charlie's cell phone records
using a new technology to recover encrypted messages

667
00:51:46.280 --> 00:51:52.679
that hadn't been available during the murder
trial. Prosecutors alleged that Charlie charged two

668
00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:57.599
hundred dollars an ounce for marijuana,
and in January twenty fifteen, he received

669
00:51:57.639 --> 00:52:00.159
a shipment of five pounds of marijuana
value at twelve. That was okay,

670
00:52:00.199 --> 00:52:04.719
so this was not just like selling
a little bit here and there. Yeah,

671
00:52:04.920 --> 00:52:07.440
that was a dealer, Yeah yeah, which is kind of that's shocking

672
00:52:07.480 --> 00:52:12.039
knowing everything that you know, It's
like, oh yeah yeah. Judge Scullen

673
00:52:12.119 --> 00:52:15.119
said that Charlie selling drugs conflicted with
the image his attorneys put forth, and

674
00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:19.920
that his character may not have been
as strong as everyone thought it was.

675
00:52:20.639 --> 00:52:22.840
He said, quote, Clearly there
is a side of you that many people

676
00:52:23.079 --> 00:52:28.960
here are not aware of. Judge
Scullen called Charlie a troubled young man and

677
00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:35.199
said he needed mental help. Judge
Scullen noted in his decision that using sentencing

678
00:52:35.239 --> 00:52:39.039
guidelines, he could have sentenced Charlie
to more time, as much as thirty

679
00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:43.960
years, but he instead sentenced Charlie
to twenty years. So he was like,

680
00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:46.440
I'm doing you a favor only giving
you twenty years. He said.

681
00:52:46.519 --> 00:52:52.639
Quote. The court came to this
conclusion at least partially because defense council focused

682
00:52:52.639 --> 00:52:57.840
on the defendant's mental health as a
mitigating factor. End quote. The court

683
00:52:57.920 --> 00:53:02.480
denied Charlie's motion for a re do
sentence. Charlie is serving out his sentence

684
00:53:02.480 --> 00:53:07.280
in the medium security Federal prison,
ray Brook Prison in Lake Placid, New

685
00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:13.480
York. I have never listened to
Kendall Ray's podcast or YouTube channel before.

686
00:53:13.559 --> 00:53:17.280
But she also covered this case and
she does a great job. But she

687
00:53:17.440 --> 00:53:22.159
has communicated with Charlie since she did
his case, and she said he's doing

688
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:28.519
well and plans to help victims of
domestic violence once he has released. I

689
00:53:28.559 --> 00:53:31.280
hope he gets an early release because, yeah, I hope so too.

690
00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:35.719
I think it's just such a lot. I think twenty years is longer than

691
00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:37.679
he deserves. I think he definitely
deserves to be punished. He should not

692
00:53:37.719 --> 00:53:40.880
have done what he did. I
think like five to eight years. Yeah,

693
00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:45.480
that's what feels more right to me
too. Yeah, that's that's just

694
00:53:45.519 --> 00:53:47.960
my opinion. You can disagree with
us. We'd love to hear your opinion

695
00:53:49.000 --> 00:53:52.320
on this. As you know,
domestic violence is an issue I feel very

696
00:53:52.320 --> 00:54:00.599
strongly about, and oftentimes there's just
no justice for domestic violence victim. Right

697
00:54:00.360 --> 00:54:07.039
unless the person dies, or the
perpetrator dies or is put in prison for

698
00:54:07.079 --> 00:54:10.159
a very long time, the person
never feels safe, right, And I

699
00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:13.920
think Charlie was just trying to make
his mom feel safe. He knew that

700
00:54:13.960 --> 00:54:17.800
he couldn't be there to protect her
from day to day. Yeah, it's

701
00:54:17.800 --> 00:54:21.440
a really tough situation too. I
mean, you can look back in hindsight

702
00:54:21.480 --> 00:54:22.519
and say, oh, she should
have gotten out of there, or he

703
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:28.599
could have handled it differently or whatever. But it's just it's not that simple.

704
00:54:28.760 --> 00:54:31.119
Right. I don't think Charlie was
a danger to society. I don't

705
00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:35.239
think he will be when he's released. Right. I think he's a you

706
00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:38.400
know, he's a good person and
he was just trying to protect his mom.

707
00:54:38.559 --> 00:54:44.480
Yeah, and those prosecutors like they
just really it seemed like they wanted

708
00:54:44.519 --> 00:54:46.400
to win more than they wanted justice. Yeah, it kind of seems that

709
00:54:46.440 --> 00:54:51.719
way. This is going to break
your heart. In twenty fifteen, Charlie

710
00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:54.199
was offered a plea deal. If
he pled guilty at a first degree manslaughter,

711
00:54:54.639 --> 00:54:59.119
he would have received an eight year
sentence and he would have been released

712
00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:01.639
from prison in twenty twenty three.
But he did not take the plea deal.

713
00:55:02.079 --> 00:55:06.679
Now, this was before he won. I think it was before the

714
00:55:07.239 --> 00:55:12.119
trial. Oh okay, wow.
From what I could gather Jeff's hand,

715
00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:16.079
Charlie's older brother is the president and
CEO of Dyna Max and Jane works with

716
00:55:16.199 --> 00:55:21.760
him and she handles the Asian market, which makes up about half of their

717
00:55:21.800 --> 00:55:24.639
business. Gane owns fifty percent of
the company, while Jeff and Charlie each

718
00:55:24.679 --> 00:55:29.880
owned twenty five percent of the company, and the company is now valued at

719
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:32.880
about five million dollars. Well,
some good good news, I guess.

720
00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:36.639
Yeah. And if you know,
when Charlie gets out, he could he

721
00:55:36.920 --> 00:55:42.639
work for the family business and hopefully
help domestic violence victims like he would like

722
00:55:42.679 --> 00:55:46.320
to. Bill Gargan, who was
the prosecutor in Charlie's trial, now runs

723
00:55:46.360 --> 00:55:52.840
the Domestic Violence Bureau in the Monroe
County District Attorney's Office, and last fall,

724
00:55:52.920 --> 00:55:57.519
he said he was aware of the
abuse that was going on inside of

725
00:55:57.559 --> 00:56:01.239
the Tan home. He told NBC
News ten in Rochester. Quote, I

726
00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:06.480
wish I could tell you the number
of people I've encountered professionally who have been

727
00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:10.760
in situations far worse and yet did
not take it upon themselves to murder their

728
00:56:10.800 --> 00:56:16.000
abuser. End quote. Okay,
I mean, I mean it's yes.

729
00:56:17.239 --> 00:56:23.000
I wish that Charlie would have found
another avenue to protect his mom. It's

730
00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:29.800
a really tough case. It I
just wanted to My source for this case

731
00:56:30.159 --> 00:56:35.079
was largely the Democrat and Chronicle newspaper
out of Rochester, New York. They

732
00:56:35.119 --> 00:56:39.639
did a fabulous job reporting on this
case. They had hundreds of articles and

733
00:56:39.840 --> 00:56:44.480
there was not a paywall. So
that's why I wanted to give them a

734
00:56:44.480 --> 00:56:46.039
shout out, because I mean,
I read so many articles and I was

735
00:56:46.079 --> 00:56:51.960
kept thinking of paywalls. It didn't. They did a great job reporting.

736
00:56:52.119 --> 00:56:59.800
And also the Cornell University newspaper I
used and they were they were also they

737
00:56:59.800 --> 00:57:02.360
all that did a very nice job. You got to appreciate good local news

738
00:57:02.519 --> 00:57:07.559
sources. Yeah, it's a it's
a disappearing art. Unfortunately it is,

739
00:57:07.719 --> 00:57:13.079
and a lot of these cases are
not covered in major newspapers. If you

740
00:57:13.320 --> 00:57:17.159
or someone you know is experiencing domestic
violence, please please call the National Domestic

741
00:57:17.239 --> 00:57:24.119
Violence Hotline at eight hundred seven nine
nine seven two three three or text the

742
00:57:24.119 --> 00:57:30.119
word start to eight eight seven eight
eight for twenty four to seven three sixty

743
00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:32.440
five support. If you call or
text that number, I believe they can

744
00:57:32.480 --> 00:57:37.800
help connect you with local resources.
Well, and that's the story of Charlie

745
00:57:37.840 --> 00:57:46.039
tan Hey. It's almost Valentine's Day, it sure is. I have a

746
00:57:46.079 --> 00:57:53.519
smooth transition hut. So on Wednesday
this week Valentine's Day, we collaborated with

747
00:57:54.000 --> 00:58:00.800
six other podcasters for what's called the
Broken Hearts Collaboration. Our friends at Buried

748
00:58:00.840 --> 00:58:07.199
Motives invited us to be part of
their collaboration, and it was I think

749
00:58:07.199 --> 00:58:09.480
we might have talked about this briefly
before, but we talk about a case

750
00:58:09.519 --> 00:58:15.559
that we covered once before, the
Toto family. But you can listen to

751
00:58:15.760 --> 00:58:20.719
our new friends and the cases that
they also did. Yeah, it was

752
00:58:20.719 --> 00:58:22.480
a lot of fun to do and
hopefully it will be a lot of fun

753
00:58:22.519 --> 00:58:25.000
to listen to. I think it's
kind of long. I think it's over

754
00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:28.119
two hours, almost two hours.
Yeah, yeah, So I hope you

755
00:58:28.119 --> 00:58:30.639
guys enjoy that. A little treat
for you on Valentine's Day because we love

756
00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:35.360
you. We do. Do you
want to give a quick Super Bowl prediction?

757
00:58:35.400 --> 00:58:42.559
I know we're releasing on Monday.
I don't care. You can,

758
00:58:42.599 --> 00:58:46.599
I just say listeners. He took
it like a man. I didn't cry.

759
00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:49.920
I didn't break anything. I know
you may have cried. I don't

760
00:58:49.920 --> 00:58:51.559
know. I was not in the
room. I didn't cry, but he

761
00:58:51.639 --> 00:58:53.280
was. You were such a good
sport. I was very proud of you.

762
00:58:53.519 --> 00:58:58.960
Yeah, well, I was just
I really did have the mindset that

763
00:58:59.039 --> 00:59:00.800
I was just happy they got as
far as yeah, you were definitely great

764
00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:04.320
talking about the Lions, of course, in case any of you don't know,

765
00:59:04.519 --> 00:59:07.760
but yeah, it was uh,
I enjoyed it. You had a

766
00:59:07.760 --> 00:59:09.679
lot of fun and it would have
been great. What was the one thing

767
00:59:09.679 --> 00:59:14.800
that you said that you were really
happy about? Your prediction? Oh?

768
00:59:15.480 --> 00:59:19.519
Yes, back in September I made
I predicted exactly how hard the Lions would

769
00:59:19.559 --> 00:59:22.079
go, and I was correct.
So I feel good about that at least.

770
00:59:22.159 --> 00:59:25.119
But I don't know the super Bowl
itself. I mean, I don't

771
00:59:25.480 --> 00:59:29.559
care that much. The only reason
I care is because I have a couple

772
00:59:29.559 --> 00:59:31.800
of really good friends that live in
Kansas City that are big Chiefs fans.

773
00:59:31.800 --> 00:59:36.840
So I probably will be rooting for
the Chiefs. I'm just rooting for Tailors

774
00:59:36.880 --> 00:59:39.920
with Well, then you're rooting for
the Chiefs, no, I mean yeah.

775
00:59:39.960 --> 00:59:45.719
I just want everyone to have a
fun time of both teams, just

776
00:59:45.760 --> 00:59:50.400
to have fun, and I have
some nice dip and wings and I don't

777
00:59:50.440 --> 00:59:52.199
know, maybe i'll watch it with
you. Yeah, it's always fun.

778
00:59:52.599 --> 00:59:55.840
All right. Well, thanks so
much, everyone, Have a happy Valentine's

779
00:59:55.880 --> 01:00:00.000
Day, have a wonderful week.
Please rate, review, follow and subscribe,

780
01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:04.559
follow us on social media, or
send us an email. At Lovemarykill

781
01:00:04.599 --> 01:00:08.599
at gmail dot com, and please
consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash

782
01:00:08.639 --> 01:00:15.360
Lovemrykill one tier five dollars a month
for early ad free access and a monthly

783
01:00:15.440 --> 01:01:01.039
bonus episode until next time. Don't
kill your husband, Don't kill your wife.