Allison and Gerard Baden-Clay - Part 1

0:00 I am Rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, some days you'll feel like killing your husband, and some days you'll feel like killing your wife. Welcome, so love Mary kill Hi, Tina, Hey Rich, how are you? I'm great? How are you good? Did you forget our opening? No? I was just looking at your script and I was and I forgot that. I had to say the last thing. You're a little distracted, always spontaneous here.

0:41 I love Mary Kilpie. I know well. I can't wait to share today's case with you. We're going to Australia to discuss the case. What happened to the accent that you had earlier? I was going to tell you, if I start doing an Australian accent, just stop me because it's I can't, you can't. I can confirm it would be bad better than my ex my Australian accent. I don't have an ear for accents even a little bit. Used to. When I was a kid, I felt like I could do accents really well. And well, when we first met, you were you could do a lot of different voices. Yeah, wasn't Yogi Bear one of your Yogi bear? Did you do Yogi bear? Maybe maybe I did? Maybe it was boo boo? All right, I know you have a snack for me and you said it was going to get cold. Yes, and I know I don't really want to eat it. But I don't think you know what it is? What do you What do you think it is?

1:27 I who know? It was almost positive it was marmite. I can't believe you would think it was marmite. Well, okay, here's one of my clues. You literally have a mug that I've never seen before in my life. And what does the mug say on it? Does it say marmite? I thought it? Did? It says vegemite? Oh marmite? Okay, I got the Yes, marmite is a British food. Vegemite is Australian. Yes, I apologize. I hope you haven't insulted our Australian listeners. But I made you vegemite toast. I'm shocked. Yeah, So this is funny because my friend Dave lives in Australia. I saw him a couple of weeks ago in New York and I messaged him randomly. I said, this is going to be a weird request, but could you bring me a little bit of vegetable? So much? David, I really appreciate it. For some reason, it just seems really gross to me. He sent me this little tiny jar of vegemite, and he brought me this vegemite coffee mug.

2:23 Very very kind. But well, it's nice that he brought the little the little tiny jar. But I didn't just bring vegemite toast because I have a feeling we're going to hate it. I also brought tim tams, which is a very We've had this well known Australian stackt and I know you like these. That's Australia Violet Crumbles. Okay, that's literally my favorite candy bar. But you have to try the vegemite toast before you get the well, okay, I appreciate you trying to sweeten the sweeten the deal for me. All Right, we'll be right back. How is your vegemite? You know, I didn't hate it as much as it really wasn't that bad. It was kind of it was interesting, very very full of flavor. But you put butter on the toast before you put the vegemite, right, and so that was nice to have that you know, but yeah, and you just put a really thin amount of vegemite on. I think a lot of people are under the mistaken impression that you put a whole bunch of it on. But it's like you just put a really thin layer. That wasn't bad. I had some tea here, so I did feel very Australian. I guess eatings ts tea is well. Anyway, it was. It wasn't bad. And the Tim Tams and the violets are delicious. The timcams are really good.

3:34 It was that really good. And the Violet Crumble we didn't open it because I don't want to share it with you, but it is I don't know. I love honeycomb, and it's like chocolate covered honeycomb, but in like a candy bar form and it's pretty some I don't know, ten inches long something like that. And you have this secret life because I know that the Timtams and the Violet Crumble are only available at World Market near us, And so I'm like, when did you knock out? It's been so busy with traveling. I did it on the way back from the airport, so yeah, so I didn't I didn't hate it. The vigemite was I don't know if I'd have it again, but yeah, saying is it good for you? Full of brewers East, I have no idea if it's good for you or not, but I think that's if you're a nursing mom, I think you are supposed to consume more brewers eased to increase your milk production. Man, the health it's been a lactating mom. But yeah, Well, this will be releasing on Memorial Day, so Happy Memorial Day to our American listeners.

4:31 Yeah. Sorry, we're not doing an American case, but it is a really interesting case though from Australia. It's the it's a story of Alison Baiden Clay and it was suggested to us a long time ago by our listener Amanda, who is from Australia, So thanks Amanda. Before we get into the case, I just want to give credit to David Murray, who is the author of the book The Murder of Alison Baden Clay. Without this book, there's no way I could have gone as deep as I was able to, and it was a really great, well well written book but also provided some great insights into Alison. We love a good book that gives us lots of in depth information. And I saw on Goodreads that you rated it five stars. I did. It was definitely a five star book. On the morning of Friday, April twentieth of twenty twelve, at six twenty am, Jared baden Clay texted his wife Allison, quote, good morning, hope you slept well? Where are you? None of the girls are up yet?

5:28 Love g unquote it's weird when people sign their texts. Yeah, that is weird. I'm already a little suspicious because why because he signed his text o ge But in twenty twelve, I mean that was I can't remember the form of texting it ever had to sign your texts? No you didn't, but yeah, no, you're right you didn't. Jared later said it wasn't uncommon for Alison to go for a walk in the morning, so he figured that's where she was, but she was set to attend a real estate seminar that day. She worked for the Century twenty one franchise that Jared had started several years earlier, and he knew that she had to leave by seven am if she was going to make it. He tried calling her a couple of times, but got no answer. At the same time, he was getting their three daughters, aged ten, eight and five, up and ready for school.

6:21 Soon he called his parents, who lived nearby and told them that Alison was missing. Jared's dad came by and watched the kids while Jared went out driving around Allison's usual walking routes to see if he could spot her. At seven point fifteen, while he was still out driving around, Jared called zero zero zero, which is the Australian version of nine one one police emergency. What's a location? Good morning, Brookfield? Where a bauck in Brookfield? Five nine three Brookfield? And what's happening here? I don't want to be alarm as I charge of one three one number, but just went on fore them. Yeap my wife at some time and I don't know where she is.

7:05 When did you last say yourself last night when we went to bed, When I went to bed and I got up this morning and she she wasn't there. And that's not unusual. She she often goes through a walk in the morning. I've texted her and called her a number of times. I think she has her phone with her, But and what time did she normally get back when she got this morning. She she was planning to She has a seminar in the city, so she was planning to leave by around seven yet, okay, all right? And what I'm now driving the streets?

7:46 My father's come over and to look after my children. Yeah, okay. So what was what's your name festival? Jared g A d in your last name Jared bad and play addy? Ay? And what's your wife's name? Alison with two old and same surname? Okay? And how old is Ellison? Forty four? Okay? So you didn't see her before she got up this morning, so okay, all right? And what's her mobile number?

8:26 Zero four zero one yep? One four nine yep zero one three zero one three? Okay all right? And how tall is your wife? Another? About I fix something like that? I think okay? And what kind of hair she got? Just got it done last night. It's sort of a blondie, brownie reddish, sort of been looking yep. And how long is it shoulder? Name? Okay? Well, we're going to put a broadcast on for the place to give a look at for your wife. Are you going to go back home because you'll get place to come and say you yeah, yep? All right, Jared, I'll get place to come and see you. Okay, what's the best contact number for you? You're a four hundred yep, yep, okay, just give the call back if she hasn't returned before police to get dark. Kay. Al right, thanks, Jared, Bye bye. That's Jared baden Clay. He didn't seem too worried.

9:33 No, very Quite a contrast from the nine to one to one call on the case we did a couple of weeks ago, was it, David, Yeah, yeah, of different situation, of course. Well yeah, because she's just missing, she could be anywhere. Yeah, Exactly Soon after he made that call, two police officers showed up to take the report. Now, thousands of people are reported missing every year in the state of Queensland, Australia, and the vast majority turn up safe within forty eight hours. There was no reason for officers to think this case would be any different, But when they showed up to talk to Jared baden Clay, they immediately were on high alert. The reason Jared had two painful looking scratches on his right cheek. The two scratches were parallel to each other, an inch long, give or take, and pretty much vertical, going from his cheek down to his jawline. We will post pictures. Jared explained that the injuries on his cheek were because in the rush to get the kids ready for school, he had cut himself shaving. The officers weren't experts in shaving injuries, but it sure didn't look like a shaving injury to them. To them, it looked much more like fingernails had scraped the side of his face. Jared gave the officers his account of the previous night and that morning. He said Allison was on the couch watching the footy show when he went to bed around ten pm.

10:50 Any idea what the footy show might be? I think it might be about Australian foot Why are you looking at the script? I mean I would have guessed, would you? I don't think I would have guessed it. Would it be show about little socks? Yes, it's a it's a show about Australian football league, like a I guess sports center for Australian rules football. It's a very fun sport to watch. I will say, aren't you in some sort of Australian football league? I am in, like a yeah, it's sort of like a fantasy league and I'm in third place, knowing nothing about the sport. Three people, no like twenty five? Are they all Australian except for you? Yep? And one of them is a former professional Australian football player. Oh really cool. But back to our story. Jared said he went to bed while Allison was on the couch watching the footy show.

11:43 He said that he was a heavy sleeper, so he couldn't be sure whether Alison came to bed or not. It wasn't uncommon for her to fall asleep on the couch. When he got up, she was gone out for a walk, he assumed. The officers asked if everything was good in their marriage. Jared hesitated and said, look, there's something I should tell you. He went on to tell the officers that he had been having an affair and that Allison had found out about it. The affair was over, he said, and the couple was seeing a marriage counselor, but Alison had lost trust in him. Jared asked the officers to keep the information about his affair confidential, as his family didn't know about it. Very different than American men who would have lied about the affair for months. True The officers asked if they could take a look around the house, and Jared agreed. Everything was neat and tidy. Nothing seemed out of place, no signs of a fight, no signs of any disruption at all. The officers on the scene weren't buying Jared's story and quickly called their superior officer to brief her on the situation.

12:46 Before long, all of Australia would be captivated by Allison's disappearance, as it became one of the biggest media stories of its time. Alison June Dickie grew up in the town of Ipswich in Queensland, about twenty five miles west of Brisbane. Her dad, Jeff, was a fireman who also painted houses as a side hustle. Her mom, Priscilla, was a school librarian. They lived in a modest house in a blue collar, working class neighborhood. Jeff and Priscilla had three children. Alison was the middle child, between older sister Vanessa and younger brother Ashley. Alison developed a passion for a ballet at an early age. In nineteen seventy eight, when she was ten, she tried out for the prestigious Australian Youth Ballet Company. More than two hundred and twenty boys and girls showed up for the audition, but fewer than thirty dancers would be chosen. Alison didn't make the cut, but she was good enough that she got placed on the alternate list in case anyone dropped out, and sure enough she got the call and joined the company, which would travel all over to put on performances. At eleven. Alison was profiled in the Queensland Times newspaper, where she talked about the grueling, twenty hour a week just routine on top of her school schedule. Our daughter Emma, who you met a couple of weeks ago, was also a ballerina and a dancer in her youth and she dedicated. I mean I think she danced six days a week for several hours. It was. It was really an incredible amount of work.

14:20 Alison loved it, but she was also very sensitive, sometimes getting physically sick before performances because she was so stressed about the possibility of failing. People in the company saw her as thoughtful and kind, but they also worried about her. At times. She would become with John and anxious they might find her in the dressing room, sitting cross legged and just rocking back and forth, and no one was able to do anything for her. But soon she would be back at rehearsal, smiling and dancing as if nothing had happened. In July of nineteen eighty the ballet company went on a month long tour of the United Kingdom, where they performed at the International Festival of Youth Orchestras and performing our in Scotland. This trip helped to ignite in Allison a passion for travel and adventure. Her ballet experience had a massive impact on her life, instilling in her a drive, determination and discipline, along with a constant quest for perfection. I think ballerinas are high strung. I think that is a little anxious, and that's from our personal experience with her daughter and a lot of the other dancers we knew growing up. Every year the dancers in the company had to re audition to keep their spot. In nineteen eighty four, at age fifteen, Alison had gained some weight and after six years she was out. Such is the competitive world of elite youth ballet dancing. So she was out because she gained weight. Yeah, Oh, that's horrible. When Alison finished high school. A couple of years later, she went to Denmark with an exchange program through the Rotary Club and spent a year there. She

15:52 and a friend traveled around Europe during their time, and in the program they visited Paris, Vetics, Vienna, Salzburg, and Monte Carlo, among other places. Alison fell in love with Paris in particular during her time there. On returning to Brisbane, Allison attended the University of Queensland, where she got her degree in psychology. She also studied Japanese while at university, and when she finished, she spent a year in Japan teaching English. When she returned from Japan now twenty two, she got a job at a tourist resort on an island about forty five miles off the eastern coast of Australia at the south end of the Great Barrier Reef. Her plan was to work on the island for a couple of months, save some money, then returned back to Brisbane and established herself at a career, but she was unsure exactly what career.

16:44 Ideally, she still dreamt of being on the stage in some capacity. While on the island, she met the resort's a scuba diving instructor, a guy named Ian Drayton. Ian fell head over heels for Allison, and she must have felt strongly about him because she extended her time on the island beyond the two months she had originally planned. But eventually she knew it was time to leave, so she headed back to the mainland. Ian decided he wanted to be with her, so he left his job and followed her back, and the two got a place together. Allison found work as a sales agent for a travel agency that sounds like a good fit, which was a great great fit given her love of travel. Ian wasn't sure what he wanted to do, and a friend got him a job in real estate. After some time renting, Allison and Ian bought a house together. In nineteen ninety one, around her twenty third birthday, Ian proposed to her. She was surprised but immediately said yes. Over the next year or so, the couple went on a trip to London, Ireland and Denmark, and then on a holiday to New Guinea. They bought a second house, and they bought a second Wow, they're so young to They bought a second house in nineteen ninety two, which they rented out. It seemed like they were on a nice path, both of them developing in their careers, setting themselves up financially for a secure future, owning two homes and getting rental income from one of them. In nineteen ninety three, Allison entered the Miss Australia pageant, following in the footsteps of her mum, who had won a local pageant in her younger days.

18:12 Alison won the Miss Brisbane pageant and then six weeks later competed in the Miss Queensland pageant, but lost at that level. Allison's effort and the pageant ended up coinciding with her and Ian's relationship falling apart. Ian didn't really get why she wanted to do that, and probably wasn't as supportive as he could have been. Allison started having second thoughts about the relationship. The couple hadn't set a wedding date, and eventually they just drifted apart and Allison decided to end it. She got one of their homes and Ian got the other. He quit the real estate business and went back to the Barrier reef and his occupation as a diving instructor. That's funny because when you said earlier that he left his job, I think people have a hard time leaving who love the water, they have a hard time away from the water. Yeah, I'm sure that was his passion if he was a scuba instructor. Allison started up a relationship with a dentist, but that didn't last long, as he ditched her for another woman while they were vacationing in London. He later became known as Dick had Dan the Dentist internationally, not just among Allison and her friends.

19:18 It's so weird though, Like that story, there wasn't a lot more detail in the book, but they were on vacation in London and she was like at the subway station. He didn't show up and she looked what happened And then she later saw him with another woman. It's just bizire, I know. After a time, Allison got back in touch with Ian and visited him on Lizard Island where he was teaching. The two reconnected, but Allison was still unsure whether she wanted to be with Ian. She had actually met someone new at the travel agency where she was working, a guy named Jared Baden Clay. Jared Clay was born in England in nineteen seventy, the first child of Nigel and Elaine Clay. A few years later, they had a daughter, Olivia, followed by another son named Adam. When Jared was just two years old, the family emigrated to Rhodesia now known as Zimbabwe when Nigel took a job with the government. A white minority of about two hundred and fifty thousand people ruled the country of Rhodesia, which had a population of about five million. A civil war also known as the Rhodesian Bush War had broken out in the country, with a three way battle for control between the minority white government and two different rebel factions. In nineteen eighty, the Zimbabwe African National Liberation Army emerged victorious in the war and Robert Mugabi took over as leader of the country, which ultimately became known as Zimbabwe. Most of the remaining white people left the country and the Clays did the same, heading to Australia.

20:47 At that point. When they got to Australia, Nigel and Elaine changed their family's surname from Clay to Baden Clay. The reason Nigel's grandfather was Robert Baden Powell, who was well known as the founder of scouting, and apparently Nigel and Elaine decided that adopting the name baden Clay would more closely associate the family with Lord Baden Powell, thus giving them more prestige. Jared's great grandfather, Robert Baden Powell, had been a British Army officer. He was highly decorated for his service in Malta and South Africa, where he fought in two different wars in the late eighteen hundreds. He was controversial, being accused of war crimes during his service, but was eventually cleared by a military court. During his time in the military, he wrote a training manual called Aids to Scouting.

21:37 When he completed his service and returned to England, he found that the manual had become a best seller and was being used by teachers and youth organizations. This prompted him to rewrite the book with a younger audience in mind, and it became Scouting for Boys. Published in nineteen o eight, the Scouting for Boys book marked the beginning of the scouting movement worldwide. The book has sold one hundred and fifty men million copies and was the fourth best selling book of the twentieth century. Baden Powell also adapted it into the book The Handbook for Girl Guides, which he co authored with his sister Agnes Baden Powell, and he encouraged Juliette Gordon Lowe to start the Girl Scouts of America. By nineteen twenty two, there were over a million Scouts in thirty two countries.

22:21 Currently, it's estimated that there are over fifty four million Scouts worldwide. This famous great grandfather would be a point of pride, almost an obsession for Jared baden Clay his whole life. When he met new people, he would quickly bring up his connection to be sure they knew about it. Were you a boy Scout? I was not. I wasn't either. Were you a girl Scout? I wasn't a girl Scout either? But I was a Girl Scout leader? Yeah? And you were heavily involved in our son was in the Scouts for a little bit. Yeah, good times. I mean, the Scouts are great. A lot of people have not so great experience, but for us it was experience. Yeah. Jared attended a private grammar school in Toowoomba, which I think is very fun to say about eighty miles west of Brisbane. It was a very traditional conservative school. To give you an idea of the type of school we're talking about. At Jared's graduation, his headmaster said the following in his speech, presumably as a joke, although we can't be sure. Quote, I have frequently imagined what fun it might be one day to produce a gun and shoot Stone dead. The first boys I saw with their socks round their ankles, their shirt tails hanging out, their hair uncombed, or their elbows on the table, a few corpses scattered strategically about would not add much to our litter problem, and would probably serve as a salutary warning to other potential offenders. Unquote, it's just bizarre. I'm sure he meant it as a joke, but it's just such a bizarre thing to

23:52 say a graduation. Yeah. Later, most classmates didn't remember Jared that well. He didn't seem to stand out. Those who did remember him said he seemed like a nice guy, but didn't have much to add beyond that. People did remember his parents, though, referring to Nigel as insufferable and a Lane as even worse. Well after completing high school, Jared enrolled in a Bachelor of Business program at the school that would later become the University of South Queensland. Again, he didn't really stand out one way or another. Friends said he was relatively boring during his college years. During college, he signed up for officer training with the Australian Army Reserves to continue the family tradition of service. With a couple years of college remaining, Jared got a job with the accounting firm KPMG Pete Marwick. He worked there for two years while he completed his degree, but then left the accounting job, deciding that it wasn't for him. After a year at another company, he got a job as a travel agent with a growing agency called flight Center Travel Group. After a year there, he took on a new assignment, heading up flight Center's new twenty four hour phone service team. This new assignment was in a different building, and that's where he met Alison Dickey. By the time Allison met Jared in nineteen ninety five, she had been moving up the ranks at flight Center.

25:11 She had been promoted to run an office and then promoted again to be the company's global HR manager. At the relatively young age of twenty seven. One day, she was having computer problems and Jared, who was good with computers, helped her out. Soon after meeting, they were both at a conference with some other colleagues from Flight Center. Jared had a friend also attending the conference who had mentioned to Jared that he found Alison attractive. So Jared arranged to dinner and seated his friend opposite to Allison to try to set them up, But as the dinner went on, Jared realized that he was attracted to Alison himself. After the dinner, he asked his friend what he thought. His friend said, Allison was nice, but probably not a love connection, So that opened the door for Jared. Later that night, he offered to walk Allison back to her hotel room and they kissed good night. Ali thought Jared was handsome and he had exemplary manners. She also liked that he was ambitious and he treated her well, but she was still torn between Jared and her old flame, Ian Drayton, the scuba instructor. Was Ian more exciting Jared sounds a little boring. Maybe maybe that was kind of the conflict.

26:18 Drayton came to visit Alison for a weekend and they stayed at a fancy hotel. Recently, Alison and Jared had a night away and she had gone to take a shower, leaving her clothes lying disheveled on the bed. When she got out of the shower, she saw that Jared had ironed them and hung them up neatly. During her weekend with Ian. She decided to do the same thing to see what he would do. When she got out of the shower, she found her clothes lying crumpled up where she had left them. I'm not sure if that was a deciding factor for her, but she did later tell her friends that it had been sort of a test. What man is going to take your clothes and iron them and hang them up, Jared baden Clay, I mean, that's I don't think you've ever done know, you've never done that. In any case, Alison was so stressed about the situation that she had a panic attack during her weekend with Ian, and he had to take her to the hospital. The medical staff cleared her to leave after a couple of hours, and then she broke down crying and told Ian that she wanted to break things off. He was heartbroken. If only he had ironed her clothes. Things might have turned out completely different. From that point, Alison and Jared were exclusive. There were some warning signs of things to come in those early days. Alison brought Jared to her family's Christmas gathering with about fifty relatives. It was a loud, raucous gathering, but Jared wasn't very sociable. He hid out in a bedroom and worked. Alison made excuses, saying it was a really busy time at work, but her family got the impression that Jared believed he was better than them. Eventually,

27:51 Jared proposed to Alison. Instead of saying yes right away, she asked him for a week to think about it. Not a good sign, no, but she did say yes. After the week was over. Jared seemed to consult with his parents about everything, and he asked them when he and Alison should get married. His parents saw that their own anniversary was on a Saturday in the upcoming year, so they said, hey, you should get married on our anniversary. Wouldn't that be neat? So Jared and Allison set the date August twenty third, nineteen ninety seven, on Nigel and Elaine's twenty seventh anniversary. We get married on August twenty second yeap the newly married couples at honeymoon was epic, and it also served as a transition to new jobs and a new life in the UK. They traveled to Kuala Lumpur briefly, then spent ten days at a resort in the Maldives, followed by two plus weeks in Turkey, two weeks in Jordan, a quick stop in Israel, two weeks in Egypt, two weeks traveling through Spain, Portugal and Morocco, and then they traveled through the Netherlands, Germany and Switzerland. Ooh, I know, it's crazy amazing. They finally ended up in England in late nineteen ninety seven, where Jared got a job at Blockbuster as a financial systems consultant.

29:03 Alison got a job with Dale Carnegie Training. It didn't pay much and was a step down from her career in Australia. Jared was now the primary breadwinner, which seemed to be important to him, as Allison's friend Carrie Anne later said everything had to be about Jared. The couple had settled in the UK, but they didn't stay long. They started planning a three month trip across South America starting in September of nineteen ninety eight. Before that, though, they left their jobs at the start of the summer and they went to the Swiss Alps for three months, volunteering at a Scout center and carrying on Jared's great grandfather's scouting legacy. We'll be back after a break. Before starting their South American adventure, Jared and Alison had to start taking medication to prevent malaria.

29:57 At that time, there were two different options. One had to be taken daily, while the other was a weekly dose. The weekly alternative, with the brand name Larium, was more convenient, but also had some scary potential side effects, including anxiety, paranoia, depression, restlessness, unusual behavior, confusion, and terrifyingly vivid hallucinations and nightmares. Well that sounds like fun. The side effects can persist even after the medication is stopped, but the side effects generally affected a small percentage of people and only those with a history of mental illness. It's weird, and at this time in the late nineteen nineties, these side effects hadn't been widely reported and weren't taken that seriously.

30:41 Alison and Jared not having any history of diagnosed mental illness. Chose the larium. They started taking it two weeks before flying to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, in September of nineteen ninety eight. Their travels took them across Bolivia, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay and Ecuador. These people are so well traped. Oh my gosh. At some point Jared noticed that Allison wasn't her usual adventurous self. She had become anxious and withdrawn. In Bolivia, they had planned to go see the silver mines, but Alison curled up in bed and refused to leave the hotel room. She later seemed like she was back to normal, so Jared thought maybe she had just been nervous about visiting the mines.

31:25 However, when they went back to the UK, Alison completely crashed. She started hallucinating and freaking out, and then she became catatonic. Jared took her to see a doctor who said now that she had stopped taking the larium, she should be fine. After some time passed, and she did improve eventually. Actually scary, though, isn't it horrifying? I'm so glad she got better. After Christmas nineteen ninety eight, Jared and Alison went back to their Scout center in the Swiss Alps, where Jared was hired on a nine month contract to be assistant director. Jared loved it, scouting in his blood, and as we've already said, he was exceedingly proud of his family history and their connection to scouting. He wanted to stay, thinking he would be in line for the job of director, but there wasn't much for Allison here at this remote location in the Swiss Alps. She did low level administrative work for the scouting center, but it was a far cry from her work at the Flight Center on Australia, where it seemed she was on a fast track to upper management. She hadn't wanted to leave Australia to begin with, but once again it was all about Jared and what he wanted. So after his nine month contract was up, they stayed at the Scout Center, but the director job that Jared coveted didn't materialize, so at the end of nineteen ninety nine they decided to return to Australia. Jared's mind, they were just going to stop back in Brisbane for a short time to regroup and then they would do some more traveling. But while they were back in Queensland Flight Center reached out to Allison to see if she would come back to work part time to help

32:58 them plan their annual conference, and she said yes. During this time, the Queensland Times newspaper caught up with Alison to do a profile on the former childhood ballet star and beauty queen, and the piece, she was quoted as saying, quote at the moment, I'm at a fairly transitional period in my life. I've always had goals and this is the next big step. It's a strange time. It's been good to just sit back and have the time and then be able to say which direction to go in end quote. It seemed that Allison was at a crossroads in her life. Once Allison started back working at Flight Center, Jared also applied for work there and ended up in a new division of the company called Global Online. There was this new thing of the time called the internet. Well I think I've heard that, and Flight Center realized that they should figure out a way to offer travel services online.

33:49 So that was the mission of the new organization and that was where Jared was going. He was he heading the organization, No, I think he was just part of it. It was a smart move, but they were maybe a little too early and also had no idea what they were doing. It was a time when every business was trying to figure out how to best leverage the power of the Internet, and there was no roadmap on how to figure it out. Flight Center burned through the budget they had put towards this new endeavor and it didn't catch on with the market, so they shut it down after six months and Jared found himself out of work. Doesn't it seem like that should have caught on and if it didn't, like then one year later they would have been, you know, trying internet sales again. Yeah, I'm sure they did, like probably not long after that, but I think that was their first attempt just didn't work out. In late two thousand, Allison found out that she was pregnant with the couple's for his child.

34:37 They were both excited, but it was also stressful because Jared was out of work. They did have some money saved, and Jared started dabbling an online stock trading in a makeshift office that he had set up in their garage. Allison had a hard time emotionally both during the pregnancy and after their baby, girl Hannah, was born in July of two thousand and one. Her mom, Priscilla, came to help out after the baby was born, and she was surprised to find a baby monitor set up in the kitchen where Jared could listen to anything going on in the home from his office in the garage. At one point, while they were outside, Allison told her mum that Jared could hear anything everyone said in the house, so they should bear that in mind. He said that it was just so that if Alison needed anything, she could just call his name and he would be right there. The guy huh. Jared's stock market trading didn't go well once nine eleven happened. The market tanked and he sold everything off in a panic at a loss. He also had a job lined up at the time to chaperone college students on a trip to India and Nepal, but that fell through because of nine to eleven as well, but Jared still managed to go on holiday in Europe with his brother near the end of two thousand and one, even though Allison was struggling with her mental health and dealing with a six month old at home. Fortunately, she did have the help of her parents. When Jared turned from his vacation, he found that the real estate market in Brisbane was booming. From nineteen ninety to two thousand, the median home price increased by forty six percent,

36:08 and home values were still accelerating. Median prices would increase another one hundred and sixty percent from two thousand to two thousand and seven. A lot of people were moving to Queensland, known as the Sunshine State in Australia, and there was a shortage of housing, driving prices up. Realtors were making a killing, so Jared decided on this as his new vocation. Although he had no experience, realtors were expanding and desperate to find people. Jared was well spoken, university educated, and he had a sales background from his job at Flight Center, and that was enough for him to get hired by an agency in two thousand and two after responding to a classified ad. They offered him the job, but Jared had one condition. If they wanted him, they had to hire his parents as well. Nigel and Elaine were getting close to retirement age, but they hadn't seen up enough money, so they were looking for some way to supplement their savings. The firm that hired Jared agreed that they would hire all three of them as a team, but Nigel and a Lane would basically work for Jared. He would subcontract them and pay them based on the commissions that the three of them had made. That is a wild demand to me. You have to hire my parents or I'm not going to work for you. And the history of the world, I don't think anyone else has probably ever said you have to hire my parents as well. Yeah, it was very bizarre. Everyone at the firm was a little taken aback when the three baden Clays showed up at the office. The family was overly affectionate, always hugging and kissing each other. Jared seemed to consult with his

37:39 parents about every decision, and he referred to them as Mummy and Daddy. Jared's boss eventually pulled him aside and said, you should probably call them Nigel and a Lane, especially when you're around customers or other employees. Do you think mummy brought him lunch every day and sandwich? Probably? Jared, Nigel and Lane did well for themselves. Jared had his parents do a lot of the legwork for him. They would go door to door looking for sellers, and dropping flyers in people's mailboxes. They would line up a prospective cellar and then Jared would swoop in and close the deal. While Jared, Nigel, and Elaine were growing their business, Allison became pregnant again. She was excited, but this time her anxiety during pregnancy became debilitating. She had panic attacks one time while driving with Hannah in the back seat, where she almost blacked out, so she decided to go see a psychiatrist while in her second trimester.

38:35 She shared her history with the psychiatrist, her anxiety as a child, the hallucinations from taking the anti malarial medication, her struggles during her first pregnancy, and the fact that Jared was gone a lot because of his work, and how being alone intensified her anxiety. The doctor recommended Zoloft and this helped her a lot. Jared was a skeptic though, he felt like her depression was all in her head and she should just move on and get over it. He wasn't supportive of her struggles during this time, which made things even harder for her. Allison gave birth to a second girl, Sarah, in December of two thousand and three. I really don't like Jared No. Jared and his parents did well in the real estate game, but as time went on, the family rubbed their colleagues at the agency the wrong way. Elaine in particular, was perceived as snobby by the staff and the management. She would regularly give unsolicited business advice to the co owner of the agency. After having been there less than a year, Jared informed the management that he and his parents were leaving to start their own agency. They had entered into a franchise agreement with Century twenty one. Not only that, but they at least the empty office space right next door. Even though realtors often left to start their own thing, many of Jared's former colleagues felt that he had acted unethically by coming in, learning how the agency ran, and then, after a very short time, copying all of that to start his own agency. Regardless, Jared's new agency did well out of the gate. The market was still

40:07 hot, and Jared worked hard to build his brand. He promoted himself as extremely honest, with integrity and flawless moral character. He started a blog called the Real Estate Expert, where he preached about the importance of ethics in business, along with his devotion to family and the community. He was quoted in an article about corporate ethics in Brisbane's daily newspapers saying, quote, in business, it's simple. Never lie for starters. It's the wrong thing to do. But secondly, you will always get caught out, and usually when you least expect it. There are just too many people, too many personalities, too many trails, and too much to lose. Unquote excellent advice, Jared, why do I feel like? That? Was foreshadowing. He grew the business and soon was making ambitious plans to open up six more offices Wow.

40:58 In two thousand and eight, Jared took on two partners who bought out his parents so that they could retire. His new partners were Phil Broome, who he had hired a couple of years earlier, and Joscelyn Frost, who was a top agent for Century twenty one. Broom, Frost and Jared each owned one third of the agency. Their business was named a top one hundred fast starter in Business Review Weekly magazine and was a finalist for Queensland's Top Agency of the Year award. Broom and Frost later admitted that they didn't look closely at the company finances when they bought in. It just seemed like things were successful and growing. Spoiler alert, they would later regret their lack of due diligence.

41:39 In two thousand and four, Jared took advantage of an opportunity to head up the local Chamber of Commerce, a move that would help to build his brand further and provide additional networking opportunities. Not everyone in the Chamber of Commerce was a fan of his constant self promotion, though one member explained why he stopped going to the Chamber of Commerce meetings quote, there were three things he used to always talk about. One was naturally enough, as you'd expect at a meeting like that, he'd brag about his brand and his office. The second thing was he would always bring up the fact that he was related to Baden Powell. And the third thing, which really used to make my skin crawl, not because he was talking about it, but the way he talked about it it sounded forced and insincere, was his involvement with the local church.

42:25 I just thought he comes across as a man of straw. He's got this big chest puffed out, saying things like I remember last Sunday when we were talking about Jesus and thinking about all you people out here struggling in the business world. I just thought, I'm not wasting my morning listening to this phony. For him, it was building up that trustworthy, god fearing, honorable, respectable image. It was smarmy. It made me want to vomit unquote strong stuff. Yeah. As two thousand and five progressed, Jared's business was going well, but money was still tight. Alison wanted another baby. Jared was opposed to it, but finally gave in. In early two thousand and six, Alison found out she was pregnant again. The same feelings of anxiety started surfacing, but this time she recognized it quickly, saw her psychiatrist and got back on the Zoloft, which helped her get through the pregnancy.

43:17 Their third daughter, Ella, was born in September of two thousand and six. Over time, friends noticed that Jared seemed to get more domineering and controlling in the marriage. They felt like Alison was only allowed to see them at certain times, and he controlled her access to their money. She was becoming increasingly isolated and her self esteem was suffering. Was Alison working at this time, No, I don't believe she worked once they started having kids. Okay, At some point, while the business and his family were growing, Jared started having affairs. We don't know for sure how many affairs he had or when they started, but we do know of an affair he had with an assistant at his agency that lasted for a month, but he became much more than a casual Fleeing started in August two thousand and eight. Jared had met Tony McHugh in two thousand and five when he helped her and her partner sell some property. The two had kept in touch, and in two thousand and seven, Tony applied for a job at Jared's agency. He hired her immediately.

44:17 The two head chemistry, but kept things professional for a year before their relationship turned romantic in August two thousand and eight. The pair would meet up in secluded spots near properties they had listed. They would stay laid and have sex at the office, and they would send steamy fantasies to each other via email. It quickly became serious. Jared told Tony that his marriage was basically over, and three months after the affairs started, Tony broke up with her longtime partner. Jared and Tony didn't tell anyone about their relationship, but it didn't take long before people in the office sensed that something was up, even if they didn't know for sure. Do you think that realtor is o are more likely to have affairs than other people? I think in movies and TVs the shows they are. I don't know if that's overrepresented. We know of a real turnat affair. Okay, I'm not going to say more than that dragged their name through the mud. By June two thousand and nine, Jared and Allison's relationship had deteriorated to a point where Allison decided they needed help.

45:22 She had no idea that he had by this point been seeing Tony McHugh for almost a year. She just thought they had grown apart because of the stresses of having young children along with his business. Allison was not one to abandon the marriage. She wanted to fix it, so she took Jared with her to one of her psychiatric appointments. At the appointment, he didn't share that he was having an affair, but he did say that he was considering putting an end to their marriage. He said he was tired of making all the decisions and he was under a lot of pressure because of his business. By this time, the real estate market had slowed down, money was tight, and he was mad at Alison for buying an expensive treadmill without consulting him.

46:02 Alison wanted to work on the relationship, so her psychiatrist recommended a marriage counselor. It's unclear, however, whether Jared win too many of these appointments with Alison. Meanwhile, Jared's business partners, Phil Broome and Joscelyn Frost were getting more suspicious that he and Tony were having an affair. People had noticed that at a work party, anytime Allison would come close to Tony mceugh, Tony would immediately make an excuse and had in the other direction. At one point during the party, Jared and Tony both left for some time, leading Alison to wonder where her husband had disappeared to Joscelyn and Phil decided they needed to confront Jared if he was having an affair with an employee and word got out this could impact their business. They asked him point blank whether he was having an affair with Tony. Jared was outraged that they would even suggest such a thing, and he vehemently denied it. Kept asking, though, and eventually it was Tony who told him the truth. Phil marched into Jared's office and told him he knew of the affair and was furious that Jared had blatantly lied to him. Jared broke down crying. He said he loved his wife and daughters and resolved to end the affair with Tony. Why don't I believe him?

47:19 Over the next several months, things seemed to improve, both at the office and in the baden Clay marriage. In April of twenty ten, Allison wrote in her diary that Jared seemed to be making an effort. Phil and Joscelyn believed that Jared had kept his word and end of the affair. But in May twenty ten, the three business partners were attending a real estate conference in Sydney when Jared told them that he was flying Tony McEwan for the conference as well. It was obvious from the way the two acted during dinner one night that the affair hadn't ended after all. Not only that, but there was another real estate agent at the conference that Jared had a fling with during the event before Tony had flown in that also was obvious to his partners what a guy I know there was In the book, they talked a little bit more in detail about that, where the woman that he had had the fling with before Tony flew in came to dinner that night and she was obviously expecting Jared to be there alone, and he was there with Tony, and it was clear to her that something was going on between the two of them.

48:21 Just crazy. Yeah. After the conference, Jared told Phil that he was planning to leave Allison and Mary Tony. This knowledge put Phil in an awkward position like he was now complicit in the affair. Of course, Jared didn't leave Allison, and by August twenty ten, Phil was begging him to stop living a lie and to take action one way or the other. By late twenty ten, the affair had been going on for over two years. Everyone in the office seemed to know about the affair, and some were complaining that Tony was receiving preferential treatment. The only one who didn't know about the affair seemed to be Poor Allison. Their marriage had broken down again to a point where they were virtually strangers. In August of twenty ten, Alison confronted Jared, and he coldly told her that he didn't love her anymore. Alison called her best friend Carrie Anne, who told her that Jared must be having an affair, but Alison refused to believe it. She actually confronted Jared after this, but he looked her in the eye and denied it. Alison thought she could fix things if only she worked harder. She turned to Doctor Phil's book Relationship Rescue. She completed a fill in the blank quiz from the book, writing down her answers. We'll read a few of them. They're very sad.

49:36 She seems to blame herself for everything. Alison filled out the quiz. I tend to deny, she answered most things. Sometimes I sabotage things. I wish my marriage was like it was before the actual ceremony. I hate it when my weight bulges over my pants. And by the way, I've seen many pictures of Allison and there's not a single one where anyone would say that she was overweighted. That's probably the Ballerina effect. Yeah, I would give anything if my partner would make love to me. If my relationship ends, it will be because she has had enough and doesn't love me anymore and because of all the crap I have dished out to him over the past thirteen years. Alison went to a new marriage counselor, and after explaining the situation, the counselor told her that most frequently in her situation, the marriage couldn't be salvaged, but Alison didn't want to believe that, so she found another counselor. Jared went with her twice and told the new therapist that he couldn't decide whether he wanted to stay married to Alison or not. Again, no mention of the affair. While Jared was still seeing Tony, he was also cheating on her. At the end of twenty ten, he created a profile on the adult friend Finder website with a fake name Bruce Overland, which was a pseudonym he had used over the years to keep tap on his competition in the real estate industry. In his profile, he wrote quote looking for discreet sex, married, but don't want to be looking for some sex on the

51:09 side exclamation point. Sorry to have to make you read that. What a creep. He also made some women at his work uncomfortable with his constant hawgs, and one time asked an employee if she had ever had a threesome. In another instant, he offered a job to an attractive female realtor. When she turned him down, he said, quote, well, if you're not interested in doing that, I've got another job for you. She asked what it was, and he said, quote, I'm looking for someone to kill my wife. That's so bizarre that he would just see then to a random moment. It's insane. She thought it was a very strange joke to make, especially since he said it in a completely serious way. There was another woman that Jared knew from selling her house and also because she was the secretary of the Chamber of Commerce. She reported several instances where Jared made her very uncomfortable. One time he told her quote, your clothes are beautiful and I love the way you dress. If I wasn't with Allison, watch out, I'd be with you. Another time, he saw her at a party and she told Jared she wanted to ask a favor of him. Before she had a chance to say what it was, he jumped in and said, quote, do you want me to have sex with you? And there was another incident on a family camping trip that both she and her husband were attending as well as Jared and Alison. The woman had mentioned that she liked condensed milk, so Jared went and brought a cand to share, but he only brought

52:40 one spoon. He said, and this is in front of Allison and the woman's husband, quote, don't worry about another spoon. We'll be snogging later tonight. Anyway, Oh so creepy. Every No one knows that snogging me kissing, right. This woman's husband was apparently not pleased, and the social relationship between the couples ended after that. Did people really eat condensed? I had the same question now that I had the exact same question. I had no idea you would just pull out a can of condensed milk and eat it with a spoon. Huh. While Jarrett had abandoned his plans to open six new offices, he and his partners did decide near the end of twenty ten to expand and move to a larger office. They found a space that was double the size of their first office, and they hired ten new people, bringing the total number of staff to twenty seven. But the new office came with some risks. The location had less foot traffic, the market was starting to become turbulent. The rent would be much higher, and for a transition period they would need to pay rent at both locations. While the business had been doing well, their finances were not in great shape. They moved around Christmas of twenty ten and set the grand opening for January tenth of twenty eleven.

53:55 During the process, Phil and Joscelyn, who had been running the sales side of the aggency while Jared had been handling the business end of things, discovered just how bad the company's finances were. They were heavily in debt, but it was too late to back out of the move. They were already committed. Based on their sales numbers. Phil and Joscelyn thought the business should be fine, and they wondered where the money had gone. Looking back, they realized that Jared constantly failed to bring the financial reports to their weekly meetings, and he always had an excuse as to why not. Jared's private finances were a mess too. He had a bunch of credit card debt, and he had borrowed money from his parents to pay off some debts while shifting money around from one account to another to stay above water while things were bad, they were about to get much worse. On January tenth, the day the new office was set to open, the Brisbane area was hit with a once in a lifetime storm that dumped as much as seven inches of water per hour on the area over the course of three days. The amount of rain that fell was so significan that it actually dropped the world's sea level by as much as a quarter of an inch over for a period of eighteen months after the rains. Is that crazy? Yeah, I think about all the oceans.

55:09 Yeah. There was flash flooding and houses were swept away. There were two dams above Brisbane that were quickly way beyond capacity, threatening massive structural damage or even a possible collapse. In order to avoid an even worse catastrophe, dam operators were forced to begin releasing huge amounts of water, making the flooding even worse. In the end, at least thirty three people were killed, twenty thousand houses were inundated with floodwaters, and total damages were estimated to be over two billion dollars. The area hardest hit was essentially the entire target market of Jared's real estate business. As you can imagine all buying and selling ground to a halt while people worked at recovering from the disaster. The business kept going, but conflicts between the three parts became common. Phil and Joscelyn demanded that they authorize every payment. They dug into the books and found that Jared was hiring people to do work that he should have been doing himself. Jared complained that he felt like his partners didn't trust him. We don't trust you, they countered. Eventually, the three partners had a big meeting to decide how to move forward. Phil and Joscelyn presented Jared with three options. Either Jared could buy them out, they could buy him out, or they could stay together. But if they did, Jared would have to meet certain conditions.

56:32 He would step down from managing the business and return to sales. He would take time off and get his private life in order, choosing either Alison or Tony, along with a few other conditions involving how the business would operate. The meeting devolved into anger, accusations, and crying by Jared. It went long into the night, and they finally agreed to meet the next day to come to a decision. It seemed that Jared was heading toward compromise and keeping things together. But the next day he was defiant. He said, I'm not going to acquis acquiesce to any of your demands. Instead, he offered to buy them out. First, he offered twenty five thousand dollars each with money that he would borrow from friends. When his friends wouldn't come through for him, he changed his offer to one dollar each, but he would take on their debt. Phil and Joscelyn were stunned, but in the end they felt they had no choice but to take his offer. The business was seriously underwater and they were better off just getting out. Jared did end up borrowing about ninety thousand dollars from each of three friends to keep the business afloat.

57:37 The three began acting as advisors to the business and told Jared he needed to downsize. Was the business ever profitable or was he cooking the books? I don't know for sure. I suspect that the business was doing well in terms of like the number of customers they had, But I don't think he was good at managing the business end of things. I think he was paying people to do stuff that he should have done himself. I just think he wasn't very good with the money. I don't think he was embezzling, though I didn't get that impression. I think he was just a bad money manager. But he had misled his partners for a period of time. Oh yeah, for sure, like the whole time of their partnership. It sounds like right.

58:17 In September of twenty eleven, the affair between Jared and Tony had been going on for over three years. Most people knew about it, but not Alison. That finally changed when a good friend of Allison's heard a rumor and told Alison what she had heard. When Alison next saw Jared, she came straight out with the question, are you having an affair with Tony? Finally, Jared told her the truth and said yes. When Alison finally regained her composure after the shock of hearing the truth, she asked him if he loved Tony. He said no. She gave him an ultimatum. It was either Tony or her. Jared instantly chose Alison. It wasn't going to be that easy for Jared, though, had a few conditions. First, Jared had to call Tony and end it right away. Second, Tony had to leave the business. Third, Alison was going to keep a close eye on Jared going forward. They were going to put location trackers on their phones so she could see where he was whenever she wished. She would feel free to look at all his text messages and who he was calling, and she would start working at the office as general manager. She would take Tony's now vacant desk and try to turn around Jared's failing business. Jared called Tony right away.

59:32 They met and he told her that Allison had discovered their affair and that it was over. Tony was shocked and angry. The affair had been going on for over three years. She had left her longtime partner to be with Jared, and he had promised her he didn't love his wife and would leave her. Despite all that, Jared told Tony it was over. Jared sent an email out to everyone in the office telling them that Tony wouldn't be returning, and then he met one on one with everyone on the staf and told them that he and Tony had been having an affair, which they already knew, and that Allison had found out about it. Jared's fidelity was short lived, however, Three months after breaking it off with Tony and not contacting her.

1:00:14 Jared called her up in December of twenty eleven, asking if they could meet at a cafe. He told her that he still loved her, but he wasn't going to leave Allison. Apparently that was enough for Tony and the affair was back on, but the couple would have to be much more discreet. Now They couldn't text, so they stuck to phoning and emailing each other. Jared used his secret Bruce Overland email account, and he phoned her from his office phone instead of his mobile. Allison would generally leave the real estate office around two thirty to pick up the girls from school, so there was a window of time that Jared could hook up with Tony. Soon, Jared was back to promising Tony that he would leave Allison. He even gave her a date, this time on twenty twelve, which was the first day of the new tax season and also happened to be Allison's birthday. He told Tony that he would be free of Allison by that date at the latest. Even with the promise from Jared, Tony began to get frustrated and impatient. In February of twenty twelve, she sent him an email that said quote, I'm sick of hiding. I'm sick of being second best and having to take the back seat. Also, she doesn't find out. Why should I believe things are going to be any different than the past. I shouldn't. That's the reality.

1:01:31 She gave you an ultimatum, and you honored it. If I were to do the same tomorrow, I doubt you'd be able to pay me the same respect. Why should I accept anything less than she would? All I'm doing at the moment is pacifying your fucked relationship. That's not fair. Gee. In mid March, a month before Allison's disappearance, Jared went to Tony's home and the two talked about how difficult it was to carry on their romance when they had to be so secretive. They decided not to see each other again until Jared was free of Allison and they could be a real couple and not height any longer. This would also allow Jared to focus on his business, which was still struggling to stay afloat. This was as far as we know, the last time Jared and Tony saw each other before Alison vanished.

1:02:15 On March twenty seventh, twenty twelve, Alison began seeing a new therapist named Carmel Ritchie. Carmel suggested that Alison bring Jared in. She wasn't sure whether he would agree, but they booked an appointment for April sixteenth. On that same day, Tony emailed Jared, making plans for their future together. She wrote, quote, it would be so much easier if you did just move in with me. She can get her own place, and the week you have the children, you move back to the house. In other words, the kids don't have to move for the moment. She doesn't need to know where you're staying. Sorry, it's up to you to work out, and I shouldn't interfere. End quote. On April third, Jared emailed Tony, who must have been skeptical about his latest promise to leave Alison. In his email, he reiterated his promise quote, I will be separated by one July unquote. Why would Tony want him at this point? Why would anyone want him at this point? I mean, it's a really good question. I think Tony was just, for whatever reason, she was head over heels for him. I think she really loved him even before they started dating. She was really attracted to him, but I yeah, I don't get it.

1:03:24 I know Tony doesn't have the benefit of being a true crime podcaster and knowing that once a man cheats, he's probably he's going to cheat on every woman that he's with. He's never going to be satisfied. You know, he's not a good businessman. He's not dedicated to his family, and you know, that's what we should look for in a partner, someone who is kind and faithful and loyal and hardworking, and he wasn't any of those things. It sounds like, yeah, very well said he was like a complete fraud in all aspects of his life. Like he had this image he was trying to portray of being this honest, ethical person who loved his family, and he was just not a good person. It reminds me a little bit of the case that you did recently from France, John Claude Roland. Yeah, yeah, he kind of lived a lie. Remind this case reminds me more of like Scott Peterson. I think it's sort of it's almost the Australian version of the Scott Peterson case. In some ways, it'll become more clear and I'm just say giving us a spoiler. Well, it'll become a little more clear in part two as we get into that. Well, I think we're going to end part one, so stay tuned for part two when we will find out more about what happened to Alison and what happens to Jared. Can you remind us of the book that you read for this case. The book is called The Murder of Alison baden Clay and it's by David Murray. Okay, and you really enjoyed that. I really liked it a lot. Before

1:04:59 we go, I wanted to ask you about my job security because you did an episode a coup on Mother's Day with our daughter, and everyone really really liked it a lot. I had a lot of positive a lot I am. I'm feeling very insecure and reevaluating. Yeah, I think your job is secure. For no other reason. I don't think Emma is as available as you are. She's a little busier than I am, just starting her new job, and she yeah, I think she's busy. And when we had said we were going to do the episode together, she originally was like, I would really like to do the research, and as the time got closer, she was like I would not like to do the research, and you you do a great job on your research. So my job is secure only because you don't have anyone else who can spend as much time as is needed.

1:05:55 It's really about proximity. I'm the most convenient per podcast with no I love you, and I think you do a you do a fabulous job. We're just kidding. It was really super fun to do it with Emma and you guys were so so sweet, and Emma was really touched and she was actually reading comments and yeah, we definitely both enjoyed it. But it's not something that we're not looking to replace our current situation. Okay, good to know, Thank you. What do you have planned for us this weekend? It's a nice long weekend. My company gave us Friday off. Today we're recording, and so I have a four day weekend. That's amazing. It is very nice. You you need some time off, you definitely need You've been super busy, You've been traveling, You've been busy with your work, work and then the podcast, and so yeah, you definitely need a break.

1:06:45 Yeah. I do have some fun activities planned for us. I bought a lot of flowers that need to be I need to fix the shower in our bathroom that was weird when that stopped working. And the ceiling fan, a new ceiling fan in her bedroom. So many fun activities. Well, this week have kind of snuck up on me, like I didn't realize it was already Memorial Day. Yeah, and it's our daughter. It's Emma's birthday. Yeah, Emma's birthdays on Sunday. Yeah, Happy birthday, Emma. I'm sure you're listening. No, I don't think. I don't even know if she listened to our episode. Probably not. I wouldn't think so, I wouldn't listen if I was her, I never listened. I know.

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