Allison and Gerard Baden-Clay - Part 2

0:00 Hi. I am Rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned, and over twenty years of marriage, some days you'll feel like killing your husband and some days you'll feel like killing your wife. Welcome to love, Mary Kill Hi, Tina, Hey Rich, welcome back. Yeah, I'm glad you came back for part two that you haven't really moved. I was actually working on something while you were busy doing something in the kitchen. I was busy preparing for you a snack. Okay, would you like to know what it is? Yeah? I just first of all, I want to compliment you. You went above and beyond on part one. You brought the edge of mite, which if would have been enough, but the Tim Tams and my favorite, I mean, you outdid yourself. Well. I'm going to temporary expectations for part two. I know how these things, but I do I made something. Yeah, I think you're gonna like this.

1:03 So, as you know, I was in New Orleans a week or so ago, and it wasn't for a happy occasion. It was for the funeral of a good friend of mine. But while I was there, I picked up some Begnet mix Okay, and that's really ironic because tomorrow we're recording a Patreon episode and where we said that we would talk about our friend Kevin and how we met, and I was going to make you ben Oh were you really Wow? Well I beat you to the punch by just a little bit. So I made some begnets and I also brought back a creole Prayleen aunt Sally's creole Praleen. So yeah, I think hopefully they came out pretty good.

1:44 I think they look good. Yeah, they look great. Should we try them? Now? Let's let's we could try them next Tuesday. Let's try them. Did you enjoy your bennet and your prelin I mean you were pretty amazing. It was excellent. Well, you had shamed me a few episodes ago that I was kind of, you know, phoning it in on the snacks, so I needed to step up my game a little bit. And now I feel bad. But you did a great job. You are a good little baker when you bake, and I do enjoy baking, but you are so good at it that I don't get the opportunity that much, but I do enjoy it. Beignets are a pastry, a French pastry.

2:25 I just read I did not know this. It's made with rice flours, so I guess that's why it's a little lighter. Okay, they're pretty simple though. I mean it's just like a little bit of dough and you deep fry it and then sprinkle some powdered sugar on it. But they're yummy. Yeah, when you were in New Orleans, you did not I did not go. No, I did not go to Cafe Dumont, which is the famous Begnet place, but I did buy the Cafe Dumont brandane miss You bought it in New Orleans, Yes, even though the grocery store near Ust carries it. It's much more authentic if you buy it in New Orleans and carry it back in your luggage right on the plane. We appreciate. Yeah, we did a great job. And the preline was they're kind of sick, sickningly sweet. Yeah, almost too sweet even for me, which I love things that are sweet. But yeah, it was a bit much. Melt it and put it over ice cream. Maybe I'm glad you enjoyed it.

3:15 Should we get back to our case though, yes? Absolutely. Would you like to recap part one? Okay, you nicely recapped it. So I'm just going to read what you wrote. Alison and Jared Baiden Clay are from Queensland, Australia. But how old are they at this point, like in their forties. Yeah, they're in their mid forties, Okay. Allison was a ballet dancer as a child and won the Miss Brisbane pageant in her early twenties. Jared's claim to fame was that he was the great grandson of Robert Baden Powell, who wrote the book Scouting for Boys and was known as the founder of the scouting movement. And he liked to travel a lot. They try all over the world in the earlier years of their relationship before they settled back in Australia, Like they went everywhere. Yeah, they started a family and they had three daughters. Allison was to stay at home mom, while Jarrett was a real estate mogul. How successful he was is open to debate.

4:18 Yeah. Jared also had multiple affairs, and one with a woman named Tony McHugh who worked with him, and that affair lasted for three years. Allison when we left off, had just found out about the fair right. Allison was devastated and demanded that Jared choose her or Tony. He broke up with Tony and he was going to stay with Ellison and work on their relationship. Then three months passed and he and Tony got back together, so Allison one of the terms of them staying together was that he fired Tony and she became office manager. And she found that they were heavily in debt. He lost two of his business partners went away, and that brings us to April sixteenth, twenty twelve. Allison's frame of mind. As she was determined she was going to fix her marriage. She started seeing a new therapist who encouraged her to bring Jared with her. Excellent recap Will you wrote It? On Monday, April sixteenth, four days before Jared called Triple zero to report Allison's disappearance, the couple went to see Allison's new therapist, Carmel Ritchie. He met with Carmel without Alison at first, and told her that he thought Allison was living in the past by talking about the affair. Of course, he didn't mention that the affair was not in the past. Unbeknownst to Allison.

5:43 Carmel disagreed and said he needed to accept that it would take a long time for Allison to get past it and learn to trust him again. She recommended a plan that would help Allison work through her feelings. Every other night, for ten to fifteen minutes, Allison would be allowed to vent. Jared was supposed to just sit and listen without getting defensive. Alison could talk about whatever she wanted. He agreed, albeit reluctantly. What do you think of that advice? I think every relationship could honestly better from not just the woman being able to say whatever she wanted, but vice versa. I think that's kind of a good approach. Would you think. I don't think I could take it. It could go either way, I suppose. Instead of just sharing her feelings, Alison used the every other night venting sessions to pump Jared for details of his affair with Tony. What had he and Tony done together?

6:39 What movies had they seen together? When they had sex in the car? Did they put the car seats down or leave them up? She couldn't help herself, she just needed to know every detail. On Thursday, April nineteenth, Allison had a hair salon appointment at five pm to get her hair done before attending a real estate conference. The next morning. She was nervous about the conference, knowing that many of the attendees knew Tony and also knew about the affair. She was determined to keep her head held high and get through it as best she could. What she didn't know was that Tony was also scheduled to attend the conference. Oh no, Jared knew that both women would be there, and he called up Tony as soon as Alison left for her hair appointment to let her know that Allison would be attending. How familiar were Tony and Allison? Oh? I think they knew each other fairly well.

7:27 I mean, you know, Tony worked at Jared's business and Allison was heavily involved in it. Tony was furious that he was just telling her this now. The night before the conference, she said, quote, I feel sick. How can you put us in this situation? Unquote. Tony told Jared she was not backing out of attending the conference and that he had better tell Allison that she would be there. Jared knew that tonight was another of the fifteen minute venting sessions recommended by the therapist, so now he also had this conversation about the conference to look forward to We don't know much more about what happened that Thursday night after Allison got back from her hair appointment other than what Jared has told us. We know that Allison's best friend Carrie Anne texted Alison at four fifty nine pm to remind Allison about a couple of dresses that Allison had borrowed from her for a Real Estate Awards dinner. Carrie Anne needed them back. A reply came from Allison's phone at seven fifty PM that said, quote, of course, sorry, you had to chase them up. I am in the city all day at the convention center, so can drop them off on my way home about six pm. Is that okay? Or do you need them for tomorrow night? Unquote. Carrie Anne was in the middle of dinner, so she didn't reply until nine twenty five pm, saying, quote, all good, just need for next week. Feel like I haven't seen you for ages. Hope everyone okay, we will have to have lunch soon unquote. There was no further reply from Alison. Carrie Anne would later say that the message from Allison sounded more formal and apologetic than she would have

9:00 expected. Allison would have known it wasn't a big deal and there was no need to apologize, so she always wondered if maybe Jared had sent the message and not Allison. As we mentioned way back at the beginning of part one, Jared told the police that Allison had been watching the footy show on the couch when he had gone to bed around ten pm. He was a heavy sleeper and didn't know if Alison had come to bed or not. When he woke around six, he assumed she was out for a walk, but got worried because she wasn't back by seven when he knew she had to leave for the conference. That's when he called Triple zero and also his dad, who came over with his sister Olivia to help look for Allison. Can we talk about triple zero for a second. Sure, that's Australia's equivalent of nine one one, right, Yeah, do you like it better? I think it's a little better, but I guess we know nine one one now and you know from the age of a young age. But yeah, it would not be better though if you had a rotary phone, oh, because you're was the last which I know, you know people don't have rovers. Sure it would be funny if herself one was like a roadary dial. And also, if you recall from episode one, Jared had two scratches down his left cheek that he claimed were the result of a shaving accident, but that immediately put the police on high alert. To them, it seemed that these injuries were far more likely from fingernails, not a razor. Saw a picture of it during our break and yeah, definitely pretty obvious, rightous. The police asked

10:31 Jared about Allison's state of mind. He said it was good, though she did have a history of depression. He then told them about the affair, but he lied, saying it had ended last year. He said, quote, obviously this has put a strain on the relationship, but we've been working through it, and in fact, we went and saw a counselor on Monday end quote. He told them about her main walking roots, which had already been checked by him and his sister, and he told them that she normally wore a black or gray tracksuit when she went for walk and that the gray one was missing from her closet, and that her walking shoes were not where she usually left them. He also told them that they had the find my friend's app on their phone, but when he looked for her location, nothing came up. It seemed that she had location services turned off. The police immediately called in additional units to help with the search. One of the officers who arrived on the scene saw Jared's father, Nigel, putting a vacuum cleaner into his car. The officer stopped him. Soon additional people began arriving at Jared and Allison's home after hearing the news that she was missing. Allison's parents, Jeff and Priscilla, arrived around eleven and Jared greeted them by saying hello, Dad, good day, Mum. They hated it when he referred to them as dad and mum. Allison's best friend, Carrie Anne, showed up around one pm. Jared pulled her and Allison's parents aside and told them he had spoken with a lawyer who recommended that he not provide a formal statement.

11:58 The lawyer said that the husband always comes under suspicion in these situations, so it was best not to provide a formal statement. Jared could still speak to the police and share what he knew, but there would be no formal affidavit. In writing, Jeff Priscilla and Carry Anne were all astounded. Alison had been missing for a few hours, and you've already spoken to a lawyer, and you're not going to help with the investigation. Jared countered by saying he was helping with the investigation, he just wasn't going to provide a formal statement. Carrie Anne asked if they had had a fight, and Jared said no. The police were also taken aback by Jared's decision not to provide a formal statement. It was his right not to do so, but it was another major red flag in their minds. Jared did agree to allow himself to be photographed, though police especially wanted to document the injuries to his face. Carrie Anne told the police there was no way her friend would ever walk out and leave her three daughters behind. It just wouldn't happen. The police decided immediately to treat Allison's deay disappearance as a major investigation. They closed the house as a crime scene, brought in the homicide investigation unit, and established a Major Incident Room as the hub of the investigation. They arranged for forensic technicians to test for blood in various areas of the house, along with testing dirty clothes and the vacuum cleaner that Nigel had been loading into his vehicle. The Baden Clays owned two cars, a Toyota Prato and a Holden Captiva. Jared had

13:28 told officers that he had gone looking for Allison in the Captiva, but the police noticed that the Captiva was backed into the carport behind the Prato. It would have been very challenging to back the Captiva around the Prato and into the car port. They asked him why he took the Captiva instead of the Prato, and he said it was because he had gotten into an accident on Monday with the Proto, yet he drove it to work on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. The car thing became even more suspicious when they looked in the back of the Captiva. There were some boxes with a bunch of children's toys. The toys were all neatly arranged, as if they had been carefully placed there by someone. If he had been out driving that car around, there was no way the toys would have been arranged all just so they would have been jostled around. The police set up search headquarters at the Brookfield Showground, a fair ground area where various events were held, which was just a couple of hundred yards from the baden Clay home. Before long, the entire community was galvanized and showing up to help. It would be one of the largest most thorough search efforts for a missing person in Queensland history. The police canvassed the neighborhood around Jared and Allison's home. There were several stories of people hearing unusual sounds late on Thursday night. The neighbors across the street reported hearing a sharp, startled yell sometime between seven thirty and nine thirty pm. Another woman on the street was brushing her teeth a little before ten pm when she heard raised, anne grief voices. She couldn't tell if it was a man, woman

15:03 or both. Then, after going to bed, she said she heard a woman's scream. Another neighbor also reported hearing a scream loud and high pitched, followed a few minutes later by another. There were also a couple of other reports of screams or other suspicious noises. The problem with these reports is that there were a number of inconsistencies. There were different times noted, different numbers of screams, and different descriptions of what sounds they were. It was hard to know what was real and what wasn't. To add to the confusion, another neighbor came forward with a story about arriving home with her thirteen year old son and fifteen year old daughter around nine fifty pm. The two teenagers were fighting on their way home and after getting out of the car, they were screaming at each other. Then the girl walked into a spiderweb on the way into the house and let out a piercing scream. Because of that, so it was possible that this was the source of the scream and some of the reports walking into a spider's web in Australia, that's a terrifying sorry, because the spiders are some of them are really really big, and some are pretty dangerous. On Saturday, the police asked Jared to give them the name of the woman he had been having an affair with. He was reluctant, but finally gave them Tony's name. He said he would have to get back to them with her phone number, though. M after this conversation, he immediately called Tony and warned her that the police would be contacting her. What a What Tony thought. At this point, the police asked Jared to come in

16:33 to be photographed again. They had photographed his face the day before, but they hadn't done it properly with a ruler to show the size of the injuries, and they also wanted to get a look under his shirt. He agreed, and they were surprised when he removed his shirt to see a painful looking area of scratches and bruises on his chest, along with another scratch near the left side of his neck and won by his right armpit. Jared explained that he had been at a school cross country event the day before Allison's disappearance and that a caterpillar or something that had bitten him. That's the best excuse I've ever hatterpillars are you got to look out for that? Yeah? What is silly too that they didn't take make him the first day? Oh I know, I don't know how they didn't think of that when he clearly had scratches on his face. Yeah, as crazy as that sounds. Someone later told the police that they were at a cross country event on the nineteenth speaking with Jared under some trees when suddenly he grabbed the less side of his neck and exclaimed, oh shit, what was that? Oh god, bloody hell, that hurt. Well. Do you think he was faking it? No?

17:41 I think he probably really did get bitten by something, but I don't think that was the cause of all of those injuries. And the witness saw a red well quickly appear on his neck, so that might explain the neck injury, but probably not the scratches or bruises on his chest. That seemed more like someone struggling and maybe hitting him in the chest, or as we refer to them in the true crime community as defensive wounds. Right on Sunday, forensic technicians did a thorough search of Jared and Allison's vehicles. The technician noticed a dark stain dripping toward the floor on a panel in the third row seating area, and it tested positive for blood. Also on Sunday, they decided to ask Jared to come in and be photographed a third time because they didn't have him take his pants off the first two times. It's mind boggling, isn't it. You just can't believe they were so silly. Like I think overall, the police did a really good job, like they mobilized, really quickly and they knew something was up. But yeah, that is really strange that they did not think to photograph his whole body. Absolutely. In any case, Jared agreed to be photographed again, but this time on his way to the police station, Jared got into an accident. He veered off the road straight into a pillar. It was a perfectly straight road and no one else was involved. A witness said that he had driven straight into the pillar at about thirty miles per hour without breaking. Jared fell out of the car on to the ground and started dragging himself across the ground with his arms as if his legs weren't working. A bystander came up to help him and asked

19:15 his name, but rally would say, is I need my lawyer. He kept repeating it over and hour, which really confused the people that were trying to help him. Well, that is a wild story. Paramedics arrived to find him lying face down, bawling his eyes out. They asked him questions, trying to assess his injuries, but again he kept asking for someone to call his lawyer. Suddenly, his lawyer appeared at the scene. No one seems to know how he found out about the accident or who summoned him. The lawyer told paramedics his client had been under a lot of stress lately and that he wouldn't be answering any questions about the accident. That's so bizarre.

19:56 The paramedics didn't know who he was and were obviously confused by a lawyer being involved, but when the police showed up, they recognized Jared. Jared was still sobbing, and he kept saying that he was sorry. One of the officers saw an opportunity and asked him, quote, are you sorry about the accident or something else? Jared said, quote, there's something else, but he trailed off and the ambulance took him away before he could say any more. Looking back, the police wondered if he had been close to confessing but his lawyer was there. You think his lawyer would have been like, shut up, Jared, Yeah, you would think. And how did his lawyer like just show up. That That kind of boggles my mind too. It's like he was this lawyer someone that if you just said I need my lawyer three times, he just appeared magically. At the hospital, a mental health nurse did an assessment to determine whether Jared was suicidal or not. They kept him overnight and decided his mental state was okay, so they released him the next day. So, just based on what we walked through, do you think it was really an accident or do you think he intentionally drove into this pillar? I don't know. It's a very bizarre situation. Do you think he was just having a mental breakdown? It sort of seems that way.

21:07 I don't think he was suicidal because he had First of all, he had a seatbelt on, so I think if he had been trying to harm himself, he probably wouldn't have. But yeah, he must have just had like a mental break or something. Within a day of Allison's disappearance, the media began reporting on the story. A reporter showed up at Nigel and Elaine's home, where Jared was also staying, due to his house now being a crime scene, but the reporter was turned away with no comment from the family. They quickly closed ranks and decided that the media were the enemy. On Monday, Allison's parents went in front of reporters to make a public plea for help in finding their daughter. Although he was asked, Jared refused to make a public appeal because he didn't want journalists asking about the scratches on his face.

21:52 Jared did speak to the media briefly on Tuesday, the only time he would make a public comment, but it didn't go well. A reporter was out in front of Nigel and Elene's home at five am on Tuesday when Jared and his sister happened to come out with the camera rolling. Jared stopped and spoke to the reporter. I'm trying to look after my children at the moment. They've got three young girls, and we we really trust that the police are doing everything they can to find my wife, and we just hope that she will come home. So I've spoken to the police about everything and I've had no contact from him at all. It was she upset before she went away. No, and the police. I've tried to help the police as much as I can, and we all have everything we've got, so thank you.

22:37 I'm sorry. You can hear how authentic those tears are, can't. He closed the interview by saying, and I need to go now to an appointment. I just we've got such great family support, my sister and family here and they're looking after he trailed off at that point. The reporter had been nice, not at all confrontational or accusatory, but it heard that Jared just wanted to get away, and the fact that there were no real tears and no emotion displayed was a stark contrast to the pleas from Allison's parents the day before. That was the point when many viewers who had been keeping an open mind came to believe that Jared was somehow involved in Allison's disappearance. The story began to dominate Queensland media outlets. Reporters found out about the falling out Jared had had with his business partners, the financial challenges in his business, especially after the flooding, and they also found out about the affair with Tony McHugh. People were glued to their screens as the story developed, much like the Scott Peterson case in the US, but without the added drama of Jared or Tony speaking on camera. Even people who had been friends of Jared's were starting to turn on him. His old business partner, Phil Broome spoke to the police and said, quote, Jared has a public face which is ethical, moral and upstanding. He is involved in all the right groups, but it's always about what's in it for him. He would lecture staff about lying, but would continue this long term affair. I didn't appreciate how he could talk to me about being deceptive when he was living a lie. A former

24:11 classmate who had been involved in scouting with Jared called crime Stoppers and shared several secluded locations that Jared knew about from scouting where maybe people should look for Allison's body, but none of the leads panned out. By Monday, April thirtieth, ten days after her disappearance, there still was no sign of Allison. That morning, a kayaker was out for a morning paddle on the Brisbane River. He decided to duck down an offshoot of the river called Colo Creek, where he knew there was a nice, peaceful and secluded area that he had been to before. It was an area that felt like his own secret spot because he had never seen anyone else there. He paddled away as down Colo Creek when he saw the body of a woman lying on the muddy bank under a bridge that went over the creek. He quickly realized that it must be Allison. The location was about eight miles from Allison and Jared's home. The police arrived and cordoned off the scene. It was very difficult to get access to her body because it was a lengthy drop straight down to the river bank.

25:15 They decided to repel down from the bridge. After collecting evidence from the scene, including samples of the creek, water, plants, soil, and insects that were in the vicinity of her body, They used a stretcher to hoist Allison's body up from the bank. Once the media started reporting that Allison's body had been found along Colo Creek under the bridge, a couple that lived near the location came forward with a story from the night Allison went missing. The couple had been asleep in bed. The wife was a flight attendant who had to be at work by five fifteen am on that Friday morning, when they were awoken by their dog howling in the back of their house, which backed up to the Brisbane River. The husband got out of bed to quiet the dog. He didn't look at the clock, but he gave that it was around twelve thirty or one am. He figured there was a deer or something out in the yard. He went out onto the back veranda and heard some mumbling voices off in the distance before going back to bed. Soon the wife got up to go to work. Pulling out of the driveway in the dark, she saw two cars traveling down the road. The one in front had its headlights on and the car behind it was driving so close that it was almost touching and its headlights were off. It was very unusual to see any cars out on this remote road at this early hour, much less two cars driving as they were. At the mortuary, an initial examination was done on Allison's body. It was fairly decomposed, so it was difficult to see if there were any external injuries. A CT scan was done and showed no

26:47 fractures, including no fractures to her skull, nasal bone, or ribs, and her hyoid bone was intact. There was no sign of sexual assault, and her lungs did not indicate that she had drowned. There were only three injuries that could be ascertained, one a subdural hemorrhage indicating a blow to the head with moderate force, two a chipped tooth but no evidence of when it had happened, and three a bruise or hemorrhage on her left in her chest wall, indicating an impact of mild force to her chest area. The only blood available for testing was from her liver, which wasn't ideal. They detected certralene in her blood, which is the active ingredient in zoloft, but it was hard to determine how much of the drug was in her system. They couldn't determine whether or not an overdose of the drug could have been the cause of death. In the end, the medical examiner was unable to reach a conclusion as to Allison's cause of death. They did determine that her body had most likely been in the same location on the river bank the entire time, as opposed to having drifted there. That is very frustrating that her cause of death could not be determined or her manner of death, right, Yeah, really frustrating, and it was a really sad outcome, I think for the people who were searching. You know, there was still some glimmer of hope that she was out there alive and that maybe she had left and run off.

28:08 But very sad outcome. But far enough away from her home where she probably hadn't been out walking that morning, right, It's a really good point. It was eight miles away from their home, so probably she didn't walk eight miles that night. She definitely did not walk eight miles before she had to go to work to a big conference. Right, we'll be back after a break. Allison had three life insurance policies, their value totaling nearly a million dollars. These weren't new policies. She had one since two thousand and the other since two thousand and eight, and Jared had three million dollars worth of life insurance on himself, so the fact that Allison had these policies wasn't suspicious in itself. The couple had actually been talking to their financial adviser about reducing their coverage, but those changes weren't made by the time Allison disappeared.

29:04 Just one week before Allison's disappearance, Jared had called one of her insurers to get information about her policy, but they wouldn't give him any details because he wasn't the policy holder. Once Allison's body was recovered, Jared didn't waste any time notifying the life insurance companies. He called to notify them the day her body was discovered, even before it was positively identified. Then he notified them again the next day to let them know he was planning to file a claim A week after Allison's body was found. He called one of her insurers. The operator said quote. The caller was clearly upset and indicated that he was worried the policy would lapse end. He wanted to find out if he had to keep paying the premium in order to ensure the policy would pay out.

29:52 His call ended up getting escalated to an executive at the insurance company, who assured him that he did not need to keep paying the premium at this point. Well, that's go and look suspicious at all, does it. He also tried to expedite getting a death certificate so he could file the claims more quickly. Eventually, the insurers did pay out, but the money went into a trust until any potential criminal proceedings played out. Well played insurers. Allison's funeral arrangements were a source of friction between Jared and Allison's parents. Allison's dad, Jeff, met with Jared at a park to discuss the arrangements after Allison's body had been identified. It was a terse meeting. Jared brought a digital recorder to record the conversation, which angered Jeff. Jared made a list of demands for the funeral. He said if his requests weren't honored, he wouldn't bring the girls to the funeral. His demands included one a Scouts emblem printed on the front of the service booklet. Two he wanted to see all of the speeches in advance, and three he wanted to give his own speed each and four he wanted his speech to be last. In the end, Jeff didn't agree to any of these demands, and Jared still showed up with the children and all more than six hundred people came to pay their respects. The police decided to use the funeral to try something. They knew that Jared would be allowed to visit Allison's casket to have a few moments alone with her before

31:22 the other mourners were allowed in, so they planted a recording device and the flowers at the top of the casket. That just seems like something you would see in a movie. It was a long shot, but they were hoping Jared might confess in some way, he would say sorry sorry. But Jared was running late and didn't end up having this moment alone with Alison, so the plans were for naught. They must have been so bombed. Alison's sister Vanessa closed the ceremony by saying, quote, she will be remembered for her acts of kindness and love. Allison, your loss has been felt throughout the country by people who do not know you. You're passing his height and the need for all of us to provide a safe and peaceful community and a world for our children. You have been taken from us far too early, but you will never be forgotten by all those who knew you and loved you.

32:14 End quote. One of the detectives investigating the case came to the funeral at the end of the ceremony. As mourners were offering their condolences to Jared, the detective joined them and shared his sympathies with Jared. Jared was taken aback and stammered, quote, I just hope you find out who did this. The detective looked him in the eye and said, Oh, don't worry, Jared, we will boy. Shortly after Allison's body was found, Jared called a friend of his who happened to be the Minister for Housing in Public Works. Jared wanted to know about a particular camera and a roundabout that was between his house and where Allison's body was found. He asked whether it recorded all the time or not. Again, not at all suspicious, he said he was asking because, quote, maybe it will help find the killer. The request made Jared's friend highly uncomfortable. He said he would find out and get back to Jared, but he never did. In fact, the camera did record all the time, and the police had reviewed the footage from the night Allison disappeared. It captured greeny footage of what could have been Jared's hold in Captiva, but the quality was too poor to tell for sure. It's such a bummer, isn't it. Like you have these traffic cameras, but the quality. I guess it was nighttime. It was dark, but still well, I hate when it works out there in the perpetrator's face. Yeah.

33:37 Yeah. It seems like there were a lot of things that went Jared's way in this whole case. On June twelfth, twenty twelve, almost two months after Allison's disappearance, the investigative team met to discuss the evidence and decide whether or not there was enough to arrest Jared. They had the scratch marks on Jared's face and the bruises on his chest, Allison's blood in the car, the witnesses who had heard screams that night, the affair with Tony and other women, along with the insurance money, which could be considered as possible motives. There was also some electronic evidence that seemed compelling. Computer forensic technicians had determined that Jared had googled the term taking the fifth two days before Allison was reported missing, and he pulled up the Wikipedia page for self incrimination minutes before calling Triple Zero about Allison's disappearance. They found that he had plugged his iPhone in at one forty eight a m. The night of Allison's disappearance, when he had claimed to be sound asleep long before that. I didn't know they could detect on your iPhone when at what time you plugged it in. That's interesting. Yeah, it wasn't the strongest case in the world, but they decided to move forward with the arrest. They took him into custody the next day, June thirteenth, twenty twelve. He wasn't able to get a bail hearing until July twenty first. In Australia, bail could only be granted for a murder charge by the state Supreme Court, not the local magistrates, so it took a while to get on the docket. His family and friends had

35:07 scraped together about a half million dollars, using their homes as collateral in case bail was allowed. The day before the bail hearing, the computer forensics team found some new and enticing evidence. The analysis software they were using showed that Jared had made a previously unknown FaceTime call to his father at twelve thirty a m. The night that Allison went missing, lasting one minute and twenty three seconds. It showed up as a deleted entry, meaning that Jared must have tried to eliminate the evidence. The police got a warrant for Elaine in Nigel's home that afternoon to seize any Apple devices, but the search came up empty. Elaine pointed investigators to a fruit bowl, saying those were the only apples they had in their home. At the bail hearing, Jared's defense lawyers argued that the case against him was weak. They didn't have a cause of death, they didn't have a date or time of death. There was no murder weapon, no sightings of Jared near where Allison's body had been found. In fact, no sightings of him outside of his home at all that night.

36:12 He had three children and hadn't fled up until now, so why would he choose to flee if he was granted bail. It's not common for judges to allow bail on murder trials in Australia, and sure enough, Jared was denied. He was devastated, but his fight for bail was not over yet. Shortly after the bail hearing, the prosecution realized they had made a big mistake and notified Jared's defense team as required by law. The FaceTime called that they had detected It didn't happen and couldn't possibly have happened. First, Nigel and Elaine didn't own any Apple products. They hadn't been lying about that. But also, Jared's iPhone was an older model, the three GS, and it didn't have a front facing camera, so Apple's FaceTime software wouldn't even run on that device. It turned out that the analysis software that they were using had some type of glitch that caused it to misinterpret the information they had gotten from Jared's phone. It was a big embarrassment for the prosecution. Jared's defense team started gearing up for another run at bailing him out. There was another key piece of electronic evidence that the defense team also disputed. This is going to remind you of Scott Peterson and the Martha Stewart Show. Remember that, I remember it well. Remember they said that Jared googled taking the fifth two days before Allison went missing, and self incrimination just minutes before he called triple zero.

37:36 According to Jared, he and his parents were watching the legal drama The Goodwife on Wednesday night, the week that Allison went missing. His legal team got a copy of the episode that aired that night, and sure enough, there were three references to taking the fifth. Jared googled the term at ten oh eight pm, when the show would have been a little more than half over, and googling that term took him to a Wikipedia page titled self and criminal Nation. Here in the USA, it's pretty common knowledge what taking the fifth means your right to not provide information that would be incriminating against yourself, But in Australia it's not an especially well known term. The question you might still have is why did he pull up the self incrimination Wikipedia page just minutes before dialing triple zero? All the way that iPhones work is that if your browser is closed and then you open it, it will reload any pages that were previously opened. So when Jared opened his browser to find the number for the Queensland Police, which he had tried calling before he called Triple zero, it reloaded the self incrimination Wikipedia page. So two key parts of the prosecution's argument were now completely discredited. Jared was granted a new bail hearing on December fourteenth, twenty twelve. This time, his lawyers came out with an alternative theory. They argued that Allison had ended her own life. They said the toxicology results showed that there was at least a possibility that she had died of a Zoloft overdose. The medical examiner disagreed with this conclusion, but there was

39:07 room for uncertainty because they were only able to test the levels in her liver. There was no other blood to test. However, the judge once again ruled against Jared. He would stay in jail until his trial. So Allison's body sat outside for ten days before she was found. She had no wounds for the blood to escape from, so we were wondering what happened with the blood. Yeah, and we kind of think that it just decomposes, Yeah, and it turns into like gas, Okay, and then it might leave your body somehow. I'm not sure if that's correct. Now. Yeah, well, her body was fairly decomposed overall, so yeah, I guess the blood would just sort of decompose along with your body. But yeah, good question. The trial began on June tenth, twenty fourteen. Jared had been sitting in jail for two years. I liked that for him. The prosecution energy was to keep things as simple as possible. They didn't want to distract or confuse the jury by bringing too much into the case. They knew the defense would be trying to convince the jury that Allison had died by suicide, so they brought in several people who testified that Allison seemed perfectly normal and happy on that Thursday, the last day that she had been seen alive. They tried to paint a picture of someone who had mental health struggles in the past, but knew when and how to seek help. The fact that the medical examiner couldn't rule out an overdose, drowning, or falling from the bridge as causes of death was a challenge for the prosecution, Carmel Ritchie, the therapist

40:38 that had seen Alison and Jared about a week before Alison disappeared, took the stand even though she didn't want to. She was in an uncomfortable position because she had recommended the fifteen minute every other day venting sessions, and both the prosecutor and the defense argued that these sessions contributed to some way to what happened. Prosecutor, the venting sessions may have been what triggered the fight that killed Allison. For the defense, it may have been the final straw that drove her to the end of her own life. Everyone was waiting for Tony McHugh to testify. She had been keeping a low profile, living under an alias since being exposed as Jared's lover. It had taken her a while, but eventually she came to the conclusion that Jared must have killed Alison. The defense made the case that when Jared finally had an ultimatum to choose between Alison and Tony, he had chosen Allison, so why then would he turn around and kill her. The person who turned out to be the star witness for the prosecution was an unlikely hero. His name was doctor Gordon Geimer. He was a botanist. Geymer was the director of the Queensland Herbarium at the Brisbane Botanical Gardens. The Herbarium provides a free plant identification service to the public. You can bring in any boato titanical material and they'll identify it for you and tell you what species of plant it is. The medical examiner had gathered various botanical materials from Allison's hair, body and clothing and sent the samples over to doctor

42:13 Geimer. He identified six different species of plants. Investigators then took him out to the Colo Creek Bridge where Allison's body had been found. A thorough search of the area only revealed two of the six plant species in the vicinity. They then took him to Allison and Jared's home, where he quickly found all six species of plant around the house, some in front of the house, some alongside the pavers in the back, and some around the car port. This indicated to investigators that Allison was most likely killed at her home and her body dragged out of the car in the process, getting leaves from those specific plants tangled in her hair and clothes. Doctor Geimer went above and beyond, though. In his preparation for the trial, he realized he might be asked about the likelihood of any random yard or location having the same combination of plans.

43:07 So he spent two full weekends before the trial selecting points on the map at random, visiting those areas, and documenting how many of the six species of plants he could find at each location. And all he visited five hundred different locations. Amazing, not a single one had all six plans and only one of the five, and only one had five of the six. Jared's was the only yard out of all of those sample that had all six species. The jury was captivated by doctor Geimer's testimony. I love that story and it's just so like what a what a scientist, you know, just going out there and visiting five hundred locations on his own time, like on the weekends too. Yeah. After the Crown rest of their case, the defense moved to have the murder charge dropped and instead have Jared charged only with manslaughter.

43:57 They argue that there was no evidence of an intend to kill or to inflict grievous bodily harm, which was essential to reach a guilty verdict and a murder charge that judge denied their motion. Very few people expected Jared to take the stand, but he did. He was convinced that he was so charming that he could win over the jury. Typical narcissist right. His attorneys asked him questions to give him the opportunity to portray himself as a loving husband and father, but he ended up going down all kinds of rabbit holes and telling long winded stories that weren't relevant. Once he got comfortable on the stand, he seemed to enjoy the opportunity to be the center of attention. He said the affairs were just about sex because Allison was depressed and had lost interest.

44:43 He claimed that the affair with Tony went on for so long only because she was a good salesperson and he didn't want to lose her. Sure, Tony was thrilled to hear that many observers thought Jared came off as arrogant and smug, not a good look. In the words of David Murray, the author of the book that was our primary source for this case, Jared had performed like shunky properties what a shonky property spriker rather than a sincere and likable widower. I was going to ask you if you could figure out what shonky property spiker meant, just given the context. But now you're looking at the scripts. Well, no, I'm still trying to like determine how to say that word spookers. I think it's spriker. Okay, Well, I mean just a shady, shady fella. Yeah. I think shanky means shoddy or unreliable or dishonest or fraudulent, and spiker means someone who gives a speech in public, especially a salesman or a showman. Okay. In the defense's closing arguments, they put forth an alternative theory of how Alison had died. Jared's brother, who lived in Canada, had just recently had a baby boy before her disappearance. Jared claimed that Ellison had always wanted a boy, and her new nephew was a reminder that upset her. Maybe she had stayed up late watching TV thinking about all that had transpired between her and Jared. Jared had told her that night about Tony being at the conference the next day, and she

46:15 was upset about that too. She was a classic conflict of void. Maybe she took a zoloft or a few zolofts, plugged Jared's phone into the charger At one forty eight am, left for a walk, then somehow ended up in the river, either by falling or jumping. Okay, the case finally went to the jury. Many observers in the media believed that Jared could be acquitted because the evidence against him just wasn't enough to prove murder beyond a reasonable doubt. Others felt that the jury would come back with a man slaughter verdict instead of murder. As the deliberations dragged on into day two, then day three, speculation reached a fever pitch, betting on a not guilty outcome.

47:00 Outlets scramble to convince Jared's family to arrange an exclusive interview with Jared, saying he could basically name his price boy. Finally, on day four, the jury reached a verdict guilty of murder. The mandatory penalty for murder was life in prison, but with the possibility of parole after fifteen years. Are you surprised by that verdict? Maybe a little bit, But as we always say, like I didn't sit through the trial and so I don't know all of the evidence against him. Yeah, it does seem like I am one hundred percent convinced of Jared's guilt, but it does seem like the evidence was very circumstantial, which is not necessarily a bad thing. But there wasn't a ton I mean, not having cause of death, time of death, location of death, murder weapon. Do you think the burden of proof in Australia is as high as it is here? I get the sense that it's very similar.

47:53 The legal system from everything I've read, seems very similar. Yeah, our story is not over yet, though. Jared's defense appealed his conviction on four grounds. Three of them had to do with the judge's instructions to the jury, claiming he made errors, and the fourth was an argument to reduce the charge from murder to manslaughter. In this fourth argument, they presented an alternative theory on what could have happened. Jared wasn't admitting to this, mind you, it was just hypothetical. But what if they had a fight, Alison attacked Jared and he accidentally killed her during the fight, and then instead of facing the consequences, he decided to cover it up. The appeal argued that the jury couldn't reasonably reasonably have ruled this scenario out, even though Jared's testimony in court claimed this scenario didn't happen. He said he had no idea how Alison might have died. Can you break that down for me? Basically, the appeal is arguing that the jury couldn't have known that he intended to kill her, that it could have just been a fight that escalated and turned out an accident. But as a weird appeal because like you just said, Jared says he had nothing to do with her death. So now they're saying, well, it could have been you know that she died from a fight, and so it really should be manslaughter. It was essentially what's going to give him the lowest sentence. This is what he was appealing. Yeah, for sure, legal observers didn't think this appeal stood a chance in hell, But when the appellate court eventually came back with their decision, everyone was done.

49:25 The court basically overruled the jury's verdict of murder and replaced it with manslaughter and the air ruling. They also stated that Jared had no motive for killing Allison, which was insane. Jared's attorneys immediately began preparing for a new sentencing hearing and were planning to argue that he should be released immediately with time served. The public was outraged with the decision, understandably yeah, even if the media found a bunch of legal talking heads to say it was a sound decision. One of the wealthiest men in Queensland, a tech entrepreneur named Bevin Slattery, was disgusted by the decision. His daughter went to the same dance school as Allison's daughter. He had followed the trial closely, like most everyone in Queensland, and he wanted to do something about it. The only recourse that the Crown had was to appeal the decision to the Queensland State Supreme Court, and this almost never happened. It had been eight years since the decision by the Appeals Court had been escalated to the High Court. To try and convince the government to take this highly unusual reaction, Bevan Slattery decided to organize a public rally and ensure the voice of the people would be heard. The legal community was up in arms about their rally, saying cases shouldn't be decided by who yells the loudest. They called the protesters a quote ill and informed mob who just didn't understand the legal system, which in turn made the public even angrier. The rally took place on December eighteenth, twenty fifteen. Four one

51:00 thousand people gathered, and a petition which had been circulated prior to the rally had more than one hundred and twenty thousand signatures. The next week, the Director of Public Prosecutions announced he would indeed appeal the case to the State Supreme Court. On May twelve, twenty sixteen, the High Court agreed to hear the case, and the hearing took place in July twenty sixteen. At the end of August, the High Court was ready to reveal its decision. Ian Drayton, the guy who Allison had dumped and favored of Jared way back in the day, heard about it on TV and decided on the spur of the moment to show up at court to hear the decision. Allison had never strayed far from his thoughts. Allison's best friend, Carrie Anne, also showed up, and when she saw Ian, she was overcome with emotion, wondering what might have been had Allison made a different choice. Finally, the ruling was announced by unanimous decision. The High Court reinstated Jared's murder conviction, and the decision was highly critical of the appeals court decision, saying it was based purely on speculation and conjecture, and that the claim that there was no motive for Jared to kill Allison had been an error. They warned that the legal system should never substitute trial by appeal court for trial by jury. That was the end of the line for Jared. There was nowhere else for him to appeal.

52:24 The earliest he would be eligible for parole is twenty twenty seven, but we predict and hope he will be in prison for much longer than that. I think it's so crazy that I know this is true in a lot of other countries in cases we've discussed, but you get a life sentence and it really just means fifteen years at minimum. I mean, I don't know how the parole system works, but I really do hope that he has not let out in twenty twenty seven, because that just would not be fair that he would have that much of his life left to live as a free man. There's one loose end I want to mention before we You may remember there was a witness the flight attendant who lived near where Allison's body was eventually found, who had seen two cars driving near Colo Creek Bridge in the wee morning hours the night that Allison disappeared. One car had its headlights on and the other was driving so close behind it as to be almost touching, and it didn't have its headlights on. It was really unusual for her to see any cars out there at that time, So it makes one wonder if Jared had help, perhaps from his father, with whom Jared seemed to consult on nearly every decision he made. But the police have said they looked into this and that nothing came of it. David Murray, the author of the book The Murder of Alison baden Clay, interviewed the witness. She said that she got a good look at one of the car's drivers and believes she knows who it is.

53:47 But the author won't name the person on advice of counsel, so I guess he doesn't want to get sued for libel. Unfortunately, it looks like we'll never know whether someone helped Jared cover up Allison's murder. I found that little tidbit really intriguing that the witness said that they recognized the person, which to me indicates that it must be someone that they had seen on the news, like after all this came out, which to me would think, Okay, it's either Jared, or it's his dad or somebody related to Jared. But again, we'll never know, and I think the author is probably wise to not say, because it would be purely you know, hearsaying. I have a couple questions for you. We've talked about this a little bit.

54:32 But do you think that there was enough evidence to convict Jared of murder or of manslaughter or neither? Well, as I said a few minutes ago, I don't know. I mean I kind of think, no, what do you think. I didn't know you were going to turn it around me? I think, sit there and we don't know all the evidence against well, to me, the big things the scratches on his face, that's pretty cure. That's true. There was blood in the car. We didn't talk about it a lot, but there was blood in the back of the Captiva, which was tested and determined to be Allison's blood. And I do think the botanical evidence, the leaves and everything was pretty compelling as well. So I do think there was at least enough evidence to convict him of manslaughter. But I do think the difference between manslaughter and premeditated murder a little bit trickier.

55:25 To prove that you're right, I think I would, Yeah, I would. I would vote very guilty. I think I need to get out of the mindset of circumstantial evidence is circumstantial evidence, if there's enough of it, Who else would have done this crime? Right? Not? Yeah. I think it's ironic also because if Jared had pleaded guilty to manslaughter, it's likely that that plea would have been accepted because the evidence against him for premeditated murder wasn't overwhelming. So I think if you were the prosecutor that you would have said, yeah, if you want to plead guilty to that, we'll we'll take that, and he would be out of jail, probably already. My other question for you, if Jared hadn't gotten the scratches on his face, do you think that they would have gotten a conviction. That's a good question.

56:12 I hope that he still would have been convicted. Yeah, I think it would have been much harder, though, And I think a lot of people look at that as Alison fought until the end, and in a way, she was the one who left the evidence that ended up convicting him. Yeah. I like that, Yeah, I do too. Full circle, And if Jared hadn't been forced to go back to the police station and be a photographed for a second and third time to get the other defensive wounds on his body, would that have made a difference well, And I mean, just to add onto that too, if Jared had just refused like he couldn't, he could have just said no, I'm not coming in, and it was It's a good thing that he did agree to go in. I mean, the scratches on his face would have still been evidence even though they didn't have photographs, but it would have just been the detective's word as opposed to the jury actually seeing these photos, which I'm sure was very compelling evidence.

57:07 All right, So I have a couple of where are they now type of notes. Tony McHugh's life was upended by all the attention. After the trial, she did some interviews, one where she said she was Australia's Monica Lewinsky, which I think is a bizarre comparison to make. She found herself out of work and relentlessly pursued by the media. She moved to Bali to teach for a while in twenty fifteen, and then she started a new life for herself in the United Arab Emirates, teaching art classes at an international school. She has a new name and keeps out of the spotlight as much as possible. Alison's sister, Vanessa, was the guiding force behind the creation of the Alison baden Clay Foundation, which aims to educate the community about family and domestic violence and empower them to aid in prevention. Each year, throughout the month of July, the Allison baden Clay Foundation launches their Strive to Be Kind campaign, which aims to raise awareness about family and domestic violence and encourage people to practice kindness in their daily lives. Funds raised from activities hosted by the Alison baden Clay Foundation go toward the development of programs that educate the community and provide them with the tools to help prevent family and domestic violence. Alison's daughters, Hannah, Sarah, and Ella, are now roughly twenty two, twenty and seventeen years old. After Jared's arrest, they were raised by Allison's parents Priscilla and Jeff. In twenty twenty one, for the first time, the three

58:38 girls became the public face of the Strive to Be Kind campaign. In twenty twenty two, Hannah graduated from university with a dance performance degree, following in her mother's footsteps with her passion for ballet. I'd like for the final words of this episode to belong to Alison. Not long after Jared's conviction, a letter was discus that Alison had written. Ostensibly it was a letter to Jared, but in many ways it reads more like a letter to herself, and it's truly heartbreaking. She started writing it three days after finding out about Jared's affair, and she added to it various times over the subsequent months. Here are some excerpts. Three days ago, my husband told me he was having an affair. I get sick just writing the words and am shaking my head as I cannot believe it. Still tonight, he has told me it has been going on for more than three years, and that he lied to my face that it wasn't happening. I am writing this to try and work it all out in my head. At the moment, I am trying to work out what I've done to deserve it. I just don't know. God, I just want to be happy one day. I want just to be happy.

59:45 I have blamed my depression and subsequent treatment of Jared as the catalyst for him going elsewhere, But I also wish that when I was sick that he had acted sooner. I often think, what if I had cancer? Would he have stuck by me or opted the easy way for the easy way out? If I had cancer, he would have taken me to the right doctors, etc. But because he didn't believe that depression was an illness, he just ignored it, and for too long I needed him to take me by the hand and get help. I didn't know where I was or what was happening to me, and he keeps saying, you don't know what it was like watching you and living with you. Well, no, I didn't, and it was his job to help me and get help. I was sick the unfairness of it all. I get a husband back, who is physically and emotionally exhausted, the business is on the brink of bankruptcy, and who is left now to support him and save the business. Me, the hopeless, pathetic, fat, smelly wife that after eleven years, he had enough of She goes on to write a list of things of that hurt the most.

1:00:49 It includes things like how long Jared carried on the affair, the depth of his deceit, and the destruction of the trust that she thought they had. Number four on the list is quote, you weren't and never will be the man I thought you were when I married you, unquote. For point number five of what hurts the most, she wrote, the effect you have had on my self esteem and self image, the complete lack of respect you had for me, as you stripped me of any dignity I had. If you still think of me as weak, then I hope that perception has changed, because, according to the statistics, there are only a handful of couples that recover after an affair, and I planned to be one of them. Unquote. Oh boy, it's really so sad. Uh. The rest in peace, Allison, You've deserved so much more. I'm glad that at the end of her life, even though it was abruptly ended, that she had the perspective to know that it wasn't her fault. Yeah, I felt like that she was. It took her a while to come to that, but she was definitely coming to that conclusion by the end of her life. Something that I think about a lot. You know, now we have this true crime podcast and you and I are googling like absurd, crazy things all the time. If one of us murdered the other, would our Google searches exonerate us, because anything we search like how do I get rid of a body?

1:02:17 Or you know, would it be dismissed as oh, they were just working on their true crime podcast and maybe not searching for you know, legitimately, how do I dispose of a body easily? It's a good question, and I just want to know why you are asking that question. Well, I do recommend for every person that is listening, every woman that is listening, take your husband's phone right now or your partner's phone and google how do I get rid of a dead body? Terrible advice. I think it's really good. Like it. I don't like it at all. Well, we will never be in that position because we are very lucky and we have a you know, we love each other very much and we would never harm each other. Correct. When you did the episode with our daughter Emma on Mother's Day, you asked her the question at the end. It was a would you rather question that's been going around about. Yeah, would you rather run into a bear in the woods or a man? Which was an interesting discussion.

1:03:15 So I came up with some more would you rather questions? They're not going to be as thought provoking as that one, though. Would you rather be surrounded by people who brag all the time or by people who complain all the time? Complain because I'm one of them. I really hate when people are like braggy. I do too. Would you rather so you would answer the same way? Yeah? I think I am. I'll complain all the time. Different, No, different from my current life. Shut up, I don't complain that much. Would you rather have hiccups for the rest of your life or constantly feel like you have to sneeze? I thought you were going to say constipation, Uh sneeze? Yeah, having hiccups all the time horrible. Would you rather be ugly but smell amazing or be handsome and beautiful but stink? I the former, because that's true life. You're not ugly, you do? I mean, I do like sense, you do smell good, as you know. Would you rather have the answer I'm asking the questions. I guess I would probably choose to be ugly but smell amazing.

1:04:27 It would be it would be bad to be stinky all the time. I wouldn't like that. Really, you say that as if you are Would you rather have the brains of a squirrel but still be human, or have the brains of a human but be a squirrel. Oh, that's purely hypothetical. I don't know if I can answer that. I guess it would rather be a squirrel and have a brain of a human. I think I did too. Yeah, I already have a pretty small brain. You could probably find ways to have fun if you were a squirrel but had a human brain. Would you rather know how you're going to die or when you're going to die? Oh? God, I don't. I don't. I don't know.

1:05:10 I'd rather not answer that question. What about you? I would probably rather I don't like to dwell on it. No, I don't really either. I guess i'd probably rather know when I'm going to die. Yeah, I don't. I really don't know. Okay, I guess when when? Okay? All right, my last question this is kind of true crime related and it's a little confusing, So follow me closely here. Would you rather be on death row for a crime that you didn't commit and the most important person in your life is free, but they committed the crime. Or would you rather be free but the most important person in your life is on death row for a crime you committed? Oh the former? Oh? Really? Yeah, i'd well because because if I committed a crime, obviously I committed the crime without wanting to get caught. So I wouldn't be happy that you were.

1:06:06 So you're just saying if you weren't yourself, because you would never do that in real life. Yeah, I mean it's again, it's all very hypothetical, not a real scenario. Yeah. I wouldn't want anyone to be in jail for a crime I committed. Yeah, would you commit? Well, I know, I would never know. That's a dumb question. I'm throwing throw it out, Throw it out, careful question. Who came up with these? Did you come up with these? No? No, I just I just found them. Where did you find them? Oh? Various sources on the internet. Well, thanks everybody for sticking with us. I hope you found this case as interesting as I did. And thanks again to Amanda for recommending this case. And thanks for our Australia listeners. You guys are great. You are great. Australia is great. One day we will go day we will get there. Please rate, review, follow and subscribe, Find us on social media or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. Consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash Lovemrykill. We have a single tier five dollars a month for early ad free access and one bonus episode a month. And if you want to send us a snack, LMK podcast po box one one one dexter Michigan for eight one three zero until next time. Don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife. Compat