Ashley and James Schwalm

0:00 When Ashley Schwalm, a devoted mother and interior designer, was found dead inside her burned-out car on an icy Ontario road, it was initially written off as a tragic accident. But as investigators dug deeper into the case, they uncovered a trail of lies, a meticulously staged cover-up, and a motive that had been building for months. I'm Tina. And I'm Rich. And welcome to Love, Marry, Kill. Hey you just pointed at me so i thought i was supposed to.

0:44 Go first i messed up i don't know why i pointed at you i usually point at you when i'm expecting you to talk but hi tina let's try it again how are you. Today i'm Well, it was not the best week, but here I am. I persevere. You did. I'm glad to see that. But how are you? I'm doing okay. It hasn't been the best week for me either. We're not going to go into detail, but it just. And some bumps. Yeah, a few bumps in the road here, but happy Labor Day to everyone. Most people in the U.S. will be listening to this on Labor Day. Wow. How did we get here? You know, back to school, all that stuff. It's crazy that it's already fall. A lot of people... are back to school already. Michigan, we start a little later.

1:25 Well, we hope that's going well for everybody. I know it can be a stressful time getting your kids ready. And we asked our son to take a picture of himself with his backpack on, on his first day of school, and he didn't send it to us. I'm not surprised. I'm not either. Also this week, we lost an icon, a legend. I know I'm going to make you cry because we all feel this way about Dolly Parton. She was just such a great great lady. And it's really sad that she passed away. Well, you're getting me all choked up again. I have cried more this week than I ever have over, you know, a celebrity's death, which has surprised me. I mean, she was just, everyone just loved Dolly Parton.

2:05 Like she was just such a good person, like very pure and very good. Nothing gets me more choked up than kindness. And she was so innately kind, never forgot where she came from and was just really grateful for her success and so generous. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I have collected some interesting, I think, Dolly Parton facts that we will share at the end of the episode. Okay. But for now, I did make you a snack that is a bit of a tribute to Dolly Parton. So part of it was your idea. Dolly Parton loved, apparently loved pimento sandwiches, pimento cheese sandwiches. And I love pimento cheese too. Yeah. So you bought some, um, Some palmetto cheese, I think, which is a southern style pimento. So I made you a pimento cheese sandwich. But I also made chest pie.

2:51 So Dolly Parton did not like to have cake on her birthday. She liked chest pie, which I've never had before. I think I've heard of it, but didn't really know what it was. Wow. But it's a kind of a sweet treat. Wow. That's a very cute snack. Yeah. Well, let's give it a try. I smelled it cooking and it was driving me crazy. It made me so hungry. I haven't tried it yet, but I think it is going to be good. What did you think about the pimento cheese sandwich and the chest pie? I love pimento cheese, but this is on me because I purchased that pre-prepared at the grocery store. I didn't love it. Yeah, I didn't love the cheese either. And usually I eat it with crackers. I don't know if it was the bread, but you did such a good job. You cut out, it looks perfect, just like Dolly would want it. The chest pie was really good.

3:37 Yeah, I like that too. It's pretty simple. Like there's not a lot. I mean, it's sugar, eggs, vanilla, vanilla. A little cornmeal and a couple other things, but yeah, really pretty simple. Did you make the crust or did you purchase the crust? No, no, I bought the crust. Very good. Thank you so much. Well, today we are going to Canada, to the Blue Mountains, northwest of Toronto. Thanks, Lana from Ontario, for recommending today's case. It was still dark on the morning of January 26, 2023, when Jordan Hagerman turned his truck onto Arrowhead Road. Jordan was a volunteer firefighter, and that morning he was driving his regular route to his day job, grooming the ski slopes at Blue Mountain, about two hours north of Toronto.

4:20 A snowstorm had rolled through overnight, and the roads were empty, slippery with fresh snow. He didn't pass a single car. And then he saw the glow. Jordan had only recently joined the volunteer fire department, but he knew immediately it was a fire. As he got closer, he could see flames shooting up over the edge of an embankment along the road. He pulled over and looked down. 75 feet below him, at the bottom of a snowy slope, a car was engulfed in fire. The flames were shooting up 30 feet in the air, so intense that he could feel the heat from the top of the embankment. He grabbed his phone and called 911. Within minutes, the Blue Mountain Fire Department and the Collingwood Fire Department arrived and got to work fighting the blaze. Once the flames were low enough, firefighters peered into the driver's side of the vehicle, a Mitsubishi Outlander. Nobody was there. Then they checked the passenger side. That's where they found the body, curled up on the floorboard and burned beyond recognition. It looked like a terrible accident. A snowstorm, a slippery patch, a car sliding off the road in the dark. but almost immediately things seemed off. There were no skid marks in the snow leading up to the crash, which should have been there if a driver had slammed on the brakes. The tread of the tires was still clearly visible in the snow all the way to the road's edge, meaning the car hadn't skidded off the road so much as rolled off it, tires still turning. And there were tracks in

5:50 the snow near where the car had gone over, leading away from the site. The car would soon be traced back to a well-respected local fire captain named James Schwalm, and the body inside identified as his wife Ashley, a devoted mother of two, an interior designer with an easy laugh, a woman everyone described as the glue holding her family together. Within days, the story of a tragic accident on an icy road would start to unravel. This is the story of Ashley and James Schwalm. Is this the case you were working on when we were on vacation and I kept hearing Andrea Canning's voice? Yes, it is. And it's kind of funny, actually. Andrea Canning from Dateline, this case took place in the town where she grew up. So she was very excited to talk about it. She would be like, well, this is an old friend of mine was the neighbor. And she was really very eager to tell the story.

6:44 Did she know Ashley? She didn't know Ashley. She did know some people close to Ashley, though. James William Schwalm, known to those close to him as Jamie, was the eldest of three children in a family that prided itself on service to others. His maternal grandparents were devoutly religious and ran a charitable foundation that funded educational programs, hospice care, and addiction recovery treatment. His mother Diane was an executive with Warner Brothers who sat on the boards of several prominent charitable organizations. including the Jay's Care Foundation and the Toronto Santa Claus Parade. In 1998, she helped co-create Canada's Walk of Fame alongside a Toronto International Film Festival co-founder and a well-known arts philanthropist.

7:31 In other words, James grew up surrounded by people who were highly successful, but also made a point of giving back. It's not hard to see how that shaped him. After graduating from a Catholic high school near his family's home in the affluent Lawrence Park neighborhood of Toronto, James decided on a career path that would carry on the family tradition of service. He was going to become a firefighter. He was going to risk his own life to save others. He enrolled in a college firefighting program and, after graduating, joined the Brampton Fire and Emergency Services. He rose steadily through the ranks, becoming certified in specialized disciplines like water rescue and building collapse. He was trusted enough in those areas to become a certified instructor himself, training the next generation of firefighters coming up behind him. By the early 2010s, he had been promoted to acting captain. Colleagues described him as an effective leader, quick and decisive on calls, and generous with his time, mentoring younger firefighters back at the station.

8:35 By all accounts, James loved his job. He grew out a mustache every November for Movember. He gave local kids tours of the firehouse. On Mother's Day one year, he spelled out Happy Mother's Day using hoses, axes, and helmets, and posted the photo to social media. His feed was full of firefighting drills and public service announcements, reminding people to test their smoke alarms and put on their winter tires. This wasn't just a job to James, it was his identity. Despite his blue-collar career, it was clear that James came from money and enjoyed the finer things in life. In one photo, he can be seen stepping off a chartered helicopter in a fitted gray suit jacket and jeans, a whiskey tumbler in hand. Growing up, his family had wintered at a chalet near Collingwood, and they were members of Craigleaf, an exclusive private ski club near the Blue Mountain Resort, the kind of place where old Toronto money spends its weekends.

9:33 It was through that world, the Craigleith Ski Club and the winters at Collingwood, that James met Ashley. Ashley Milnes, AJ to the people who loved her, also grew up in North Toronto, and like James, she had spent countless snowy weekends at her family's Collingwood chalet. She was an avid hiker, runner, golfer, tennis player, a fabulous dancer, and, for reasons her Canadian friends could never quite explain, a devoted Green Bay Packers fan. I can't explain that either. People who knew her described her as a warm, optimistic young woman with an electric smile. Ashley's friends knew that on their birthdays, they could count on waking up to a video message from her. When her own mother died of cancer in 2004, Ashley, one of four siblings, became the one who held the family together. She had a reputation for being supportive without sugarcoating things, which meant that her siblings, her cousins, and her friends all turned to her when they needed someone. Her longtime friend Carrie Dyson said, Ashley was someone you could talk to about what was going on in your life. She made everyone feel like the most special person in the world. Even when things were hard, Ashley stayed optimistic. She would sing and dance around the house in her pajamas. She dreamed about one day buying a farm and starting an animal sanctuary, even though she had built her career in upscale home design.

10:59 She had a big, contagious laugh. It was impossible to be around her and not laugh along. Ashley earned degrees from Dalhousie University and the Art Institute of Pittsburgh, channeling her gift for envisioning what a space could become into a career in interior design and home staging. When James and Ashley met at Craigleith, a private ski club where both of their families held memberships, they were in their early 20s. James was already friendly with Ashley's brother, and it wasn't long before she caught his attention. Soon they were hitting the slopes together, grabbing drinks in the city, and before long, planning a life together. On paper, they were a perfect match. James' mother had been an executive at Warner Brothers, Ashley's father made a fortune in finance.

11:46 The two families ran in the same social circle. James and Ashley shared a love of hiking and the outdoors, a similar sense of humor, and similar ambitions. Friends who spent time with them could see that they would end up together. James was moving steadily up the ranks at the fire department. Ashley was launching her own interior design and home staging business. In the early 2010s, they bought their first house together, a new build in Collingwood, and they got engaged. Their wedding, held at Craigleith in September 2012, was a lavish affair. The club's four main halls were each themed to a season and a nod to the couple's shared love of the outdoors. The winter room, done up like an after-ski lounge, was decorated with pine cones, antlers, and bearskin rugs. Ashley arrived by horse-drawn carriage. She told a wedding magazine, quote, I've been picturing that moment since I was a little girl. I truly felt like a princess.

12:49 Isn't that how you're supposed to feel on your wedding day? That afternoon, in front of 160 guests, James and Ashley recited vows promising to love each other for better or worse. Afterward, they climbed into a vintage green convertible for photos and partied the night away. That sounds like a pretty amazing wedding. It sounds like a lot of people's dream wedding. Yeah. For years, their lives together unfolded exactly as planned. James made full-time captain a promotion that came with a salary of $ 140, 000 a year. Ashley built a growing client list, designing one gorgeous home after another. They got a dog, Rocco.

13:30 Then they expanded their family. First a son, then a few years later a daughter. In 2018, they moved into a picturesque Tudor-style brick home in Collingwood, which backed directly onto a seven-mile hiking trail. For a couple who loved the outdoors as much as they did, it was perfect. But looking past the postcard version of their life, James and Ashley were dealing with the same pressures most families face. Household bills, school pickups and drop-offs, long commutes, longer hours. Like most firefighters, James typically worked a rotation of 24-hour shifts, and in his time off, he picked up extra hours at Walker's Small Motors, a local shop that sold and serviced lawnmowers and snowblowers. By the time of Ashley's death in January 2023, James was 38 and Ashley was 40.

14:21 They'd been married for over a decade. Their son was nine and their daughter was six. Friends who knew them described the Schwalms as a very well-adjusted family. but there was a secret that many of them weren't aware of. In the summer of 2021, Ashley started a new job at a company based in nearby Port Carling that built custom cottages, ski chalets, and vacation homes. Her new boss, the company's founder, was a charismatic entrepreneur named Steve McDonald. Roughly six months into the job, Ashley and Steve began an affair. The pair spent long hours together at work, on the road visiting job sites, so it was easy to keep the affair hidden. For months, neither James nor Stephen's wife, Alexandra, suspected a thing. Then in April 2022, everything came out. Ashley was staying at her father's house in the Bahamas with a group of girlfriends, celebrating her 40th birthday, when her phone rang. It was Alexandra McDonald.

15:23 She told Ashley she knew about the affair between Ashley and her husband, and gave her an ultimatum, tell your husband or I will. Coincidentally, James and the kids were flying down to join her that same day. When they arrived, Ashley asked her father to watch the children so she and James could talk in private, and she told him about the affair. The weeks that followed were agonizing. Ashley was contrite, immediately agreeing to quit her job to separate herself from Steve MacDonald. she would soon take a new position at a local project management firm. Though James felt betrayed, he and Ashley decided they wanted to try and repair their marriage. They started couples counseling, along with individual therapy sessions of their own. Ashley's family didn't learn what had happened until days later. They pushed her to acknowledge the affair honestly, no minimizing, no excuses, but they didn't want her carrying it as a life sentence either. Publicly, James didn't talk about what had happened at all. But whispers about the affair spread through their tight-knit social and professional circles regardless, and people who knew James noticed a change in him. At work, he seemed to grow condescending towards his junior colleagues. At Craigleaf, members noticed he was drinking more than usual. To the people around him, he seemed distant and withdrawn. Most people cut him slack. Firefighting is a brutal, round-the-clock job, and plenty of his colleagues had weathered their own marital troubles. They figured he'd get through

16:55 it eventually. But instead, as 2022 wore on, things got worse, not better. As Christmas approached, James confided in his mother that he wasn't sure he and Ashley were going to make it. Around the same time, Ashley told her own family that she was thinking about leaving James. On New Year's Day, Ashley sent her sister a text, quoting an old air supply song, I'm all out of love. She told an old friend that in 2023, she was going to put herself first. Her kids, her health, her own happiness. It was going to be, as she put it, the year of Ashley. James was also weighing his options. He didn't like either of them. He told a friend he couldn't picture what shared custody of his kids would look like.

17:40 He couldn't stomach the idea of the legal fees, the alimony, the child support. He said he was worried that after divorce, he'd never be able to get back on stable financial footing. On January 10th, 2023, he told the same friend he couldn't imagine being a single parent and he couldn't imagine a life without Ashley in it. This is really tough, right? I think when you have a marriage and one partner has an affair, it gets exposed and you try to work things out. I think it can be, I can imagine how difficult that would be. I think if you are going to work it out, it takes years and years of hard work. Yeah. And I'm sure that Ashley having this affair, it was a symptom of problems in the marriage to begin with.

18:25 We don't know of any issues before the affair started, but I'm sure she must have been unhappy. She must have been open to other people, right, to have a relationship with. And so I think, you know, there were problems there before the affair happened, I'm sure. Once the marital trust is broken, it's really hard to repair it. Yeah. You can't put an affair back in the jar. Right. We'll be back after a break. January 25th, 2023 began like most other days for the Schwalm family. Ashley made breakfast for the kids, dropped them off at school, and went to work. James, meanwhile, was wrapping up an overnight shift at the fire hall in Brampton.

19:11 On his way home, he ran a few errands in downtown Toronto before pulling back into Collingwood at around 1.45 in the afternoon. Ashley finished her workday around 4.30 that afternoon. When she got home, she took the family dog Rocco out for a walk, while James loaded the kids into their Toyota 4Runner to drive their daughter to a riding lesson. When they returned, the family had dinner together, and later that evening, Ashley tucked the kids into bed. It would be the last time she would ever do it. At 5.13 the next morning, James sent a text to Ashley saying, Okay, leaving now. See you soon. And then a minute later, he left the house, to walk the dog. He told his son, who briefly stirred, that he would be back soon.

19:55 He didn't take his phone with him. He said later he had left it charging at home. At 5.23 a.m., James received a text from Ashley. Quote, Okay, I'm going to zip out. I think the kids will be fine. They're sleeping. At 5.30, he received another text. Ew, I left the gas cans in my car and it smells. I have to drive with the windows open and it's so cold out. At 5.38, he got another text from her. Sorry about yelling at you this morning. I guess I need to understand that we both need our time. Your walks and my hikes are important. James later told police that he and Ashley had a minor argument that morning because they both wanted to go out at the same time.

20:37 an early morning dog walk for him and a hike for her, and that the argument was about leaving their young children home alone for a short time. At 5.42 a.m., a car matching Ashley's Mitsubishi Outlander was captured on video pulling into the parking lot of the Alpine Ski Club about 10 miles from their home. A person, the footage wasn't clear enough to see who, got out of the car, opened the SUV's trunk, closed it again, and walked around the car. The person got back in and then pulled out of the lot three minutes after arriving. Right around that time, at 5.46, James received one final text from Ashley that said, Oh, I have vertigo. I'm going to rush home and try to do a workout in the basement.

21:23 I feel like crap. I can't hike. Ashley did, in fact, suffer from a condition called Meniere's disease, a chronic inner ear disorder that caused bouts of vertigo severe enough that she had once collapsed in a grocery store. So just to recap a little bit that morning before we go on any further. So basically both James and Ashley apparently got up very early, like 5, you know, 30 in the morning. He was going to take the dog out for a walk. She was going to go on a hike, apparently. She was going to drive to a location to take a hike. It had snowed the night before. It was very snowy out. And they apparently had an argument about leaving the kids home alone because they both were ready to go out at the same time. Remind us how old the kids are.

22:05 They were 9 and 6. So definitely too young to be left home alone. Yeah. But it's not even 6 a.m., so the sun probably isn't up. Right. And it's very snowy. So Ashley's going for a hike, and James is going for a walk with the dog. That seems really odd to me. I don't think that was uncommon for either of them. I think they lived in, you know, the snowy north country. To go for a hike in the dark? Well, to go for a hike in the dark, yes, that would be uncommon. But to go for a hike in the winter, in the snow, that wouldn't have been uncommon for Ashley. Okay. Just eight minutes after that final text was sent from Ashley's phone to James's, Jordan Hagerman spotted the fire and called 911. Around that same time, two employees on their way to work at the Alpine Ski Club also saw the blaze and called it in.

22:52 Firefighters from Blue Mountain and Collingwood arrived. It was a stubborn fire, but eventually they were able to extinguish the flames. Once it was safe, they checked the driver's side first but saw nothing. When they checked the passenger's side, they found a body slumped down on the floorboard of the passenger seat, burned beyond recognition. Investigators initially assumed the body had shifted from the driver's side during the fall, jostled loose by gravity and the impact of the descent. Well, first of all, that's a horrible way to die. And Ashley's body was found in the passenger seat. Right. And they think it was because the car had rolled down an embankment. Initially, that's what they thought, yeah, because obviously it's going down an embankment, like a 75-foot embankment. There's going to be a lot of, you know, the car being bumped around, and if someone was in the driver's seat, they could definitely end up, you know, somewhere else in the car.

23:45 So she wouldn't have had a seatbelt on then? No. At the scene, investigators found the vehicle's license plate lying in the snow. It had been clipped off the car as it rolled down the embankment. They traced it back to James Schwalm, who lived about 10 miles away in Collingwood. Detective Jeremy Schiffman of the Ontario Provincial Police, along with two uniformed officers, drove to the Schwalm house and rang the bell, but nobody answered. Back in his car, Schiffman pulled up Facebook and found James' profile, a picture of him in uniform standing in front of a fire truck with his family. It looked like James worked at a fire hall just outside of Toronto. As it happened, Schiffman knew someone who worked at that same station, a firefighter named Brittany Holmberg, who had worked alongside James for 12 years. He called her up. Olmberg confirmed that James drove a Mitsubishi, asked if there was any reason he might be out near the ski hill that early. She said there had been fresh snow. It wouldn't be unusual for James to get out early for a ski run in fresh powder before work. Then Schiffman told her they had reason to believe that James might be dead. Olmberg hung up and had a panic attack. She tried calling James but got no answer. Meanwhile, police were also trying to track down Ashley so they could let her know that her husband might have been killed in an accident.

25:07 Holmberg had told them Ashley worked at a home building firm in town, so officers headed there, only to learn she hadn't shown up for work that day, which was completely out of character. She had missed a 9 o'clock meeting. A few minutes later, Holmberg called Detective Schiffman back. She had reached James, she said. He was alive, working his part-time shift at Walker's, the small engine repair shop. Detectives went straight there. They pulled James aside privately and told him his car had been in an accident and that they believed his wife had been inside it. According to the officers, James broke down crying immediately on hearing the news. James' first call was to Ashley's father, Ian Milnes, a retired bond trader now living in the Bahamas. James told him there had been a car accident and that Ashley was dead. Ian immediately arranged a private jet home, calling family members along the way. The whole family gathered later that day at Ian's chalet in the mountains near Collingwood. Ian, still absorbing the loss of his own daughter, found himself just as worried about James, a man suddenly faced with raising two young children alone. Family and friends surrounded James in the hours and days that followed. Offering condolences, embraces, and home-cooked meals, he seemed to be lost in his grief.

26:28 Even as everyone around him mourned, a few small details of the crash scene were bothering investigators. There was no damage to the guardrail running alongside the embankment. The only way the car could have ended up down there was through a narrow gap between the start of the barrier and a large rock. Also, there were no skid marks where the outlander went off the road. no sign that the driver had ever hit the brakes. The tire tread pattern was clearly visible all the way to the road's edge, meaning the tires had still been rotating when the car left the pavement, rather than sliding, the way tires typically do when a driver loses control and skids. It looked less like an accident and more like the car had been aimed directly at the narrow gap where it went over.

27:13 Then there was the question of the tracks near the car leading up to the road. These weren't clear footprints, but it seemed like someone had scrambled up the embankment away from the burning car. Detective Inspector Sean Glassford, a veteran investigator often called in on suspicious or unexplained deaths, was assigned to the case, alongside Detectives Jason Lloyd and Jeremy Schiffman. They ordered the vehicle towed out of the ditch and sent to Ontario's Centre of Forensic Sciences in Toronto for closer examination. Ashley's body was also transported for an autopsy. There was no proof of anything yet, but taken together, the missing skid marks, the still rotating tires, the tracks leading from the car, it was enough to make investigators suspect that they weren't looking at an accident at all.

28:02 Do you have any sense of how often when a car rolls down an embankment and has been in an accident, how often they catch on fire? I don't have statistics on that, but my... guess is it's pretty rare. Yeah, but it happens in TV shows and movies all the time, so I think that's why we think that it might be a typical occurrence. Well, if you remember, though, there was a text from Ashley saying, I forgot and left the gas cans in the car. Ew, it smells really bad. I have to drive with the windows open. So that might give you a clue as to, you know, maybe the cause of the fire. James sat down with the police in the afternoon and gave his account of that morning. The kids had been asleep, He left the house shortly after 5 a.m. to walk Rocco.

28:46 He'd forgotten to charge his phone overnight, so he plugged it in before he left. He was gone for about an hour and 15 minutes. When he got back, he said there was a text waiting from Ashley. She'd gone for a hike and would see him later. The kids were still sleeping and would be fine on their own for the short time until James returned. He said that she had mentioned the idea of an early morning hike out toward the ski hills near Craigleith the night before. James showed detectives home security footage to back up his account. One clip showed him leaving the house with the dog at 5.14 a.m. A few minutes later, a second clip showed the Mitsubishi backing out of the garage and down the driveway. The driver wasn't visible in the footage, but James had gone one way with the dog and was not seen returning before the car pulled out in the other direction. James walked detectives through the string of texts between Ashley and him that morning. The message about zipping out while the kids slept, the one about the smell of gasoline from cans she'd apparently left in the car, an apology for an argument the two of them had had that morning over him wanting to walk the dog at the same time she wanted to go for a hike, and finally the message about her vertigo flaring up. forcing her to cut the hike short and head home to work out instead. James explained the gas cans. He said that he'd asked Ashley to fill them up for him for the snowblower the day before, and she might have left them in the trunk. And as for the argument, he described it as nothing serious. He told detectives, I

30:17 chalked it up as nothing. It was just a nothing fight. Just a bickering over scheduling, the kind every couple has. Detectives asked him to trace out on a map the route he'd taken walking the dog that morning. He did, accounting for the full hour and 15 minutes. That was helpful. They would check security cameras along his route to verify his story. They also asked whether Ashley had any enemies, anyone who might have wanted to hurt her. James mentioned a contractor Ashley had hired to do some work at her family's chalet. He had gotten into a dispute with Ashley over the cost, and things had gotten heated. Detectives made a note to track him down. Before the interview ended, James agreed to let police download data from his home security system. He handed over his cell phone and invited them to search the house. Police felt that James was behaving like a man who had nothing to hide. And by every account, his grief during that initial interview was completely real. One of the officers said, If he's faking, he deserves an Oscar. In the days after the crash, James' friends rallied around him, checking in, offering whatever support they could. Ashley's family reached out too, more than once, but James rarely responded. Everyone assumed he was simply too deep in his own grief to talk. But a few of Ashley's family members couldn't shake a nagging feeling that something about his story didn't add up. Ashley loved to hike, yes,

31:48 but it was out of character for her to drive 20 minutes from home, in the dark, on bad roads, just to hike near Craigleith. Her usual routine was to walk the trails right behind their own house, and always during daylight. Ashley's older sister, Lindsay, said she was scared of her own shadow. If she was planning that hike, the only thing that made sense was if she was planning to meet someone. Unable to shake the feeling in her gut, Lindsay drove to the police station and asked to speak with a detective. Find Ashley's phone, Lindsay told him. If Ashley had plans to meet someone for a hike that morning, there would be a text. Call something. If there wasn't, then the hiking story made no sense. Investigators never recovered Ashley's phone, but they were able to pull her hiking history from Strava, a fitness tracking app she used regularly. It showed exactly what her family suspected. Ashley never hiked before 7 in the morning, and she never hiked anywhere near Craigleith. Her hikes were always close to home. Meanwhile, an accident reconstruction expert with the Ontario Provincial Police confirmed what an on-scene examination had suggested. The outlander's tires had still been rotating, not skidding, when the vehicle left the road, and there was no mechanical defect that could explain the crash.

33:10 The province's Office of the Fire Marshal, after an examination of the burned-out vehicle, concluded that the fire had started inside the passenger compartment. and that the driver's side window had been left open, letting in the air that fed the flames and helped destroy the interior of the car. The accident story was looking less and less plausible, but investigators still had no hard proof of foul play or of James' involvement. On January 28th, two days after the crash, police brought James back in, this time to provide a formal statement. His wife's autopsy was underway, but not yet complete. Enough details were troubling investigators that they told him Ashley's death was now considered suspicious. Among the details working against James' story, based on the timeline of texts he'd shown police, Ashley would have arrived at Craigleith Ski Club to begin her hike around 5.45 in the morning, in the pitch dark, in a snowstorm, at a trailhead with no lighting whatsoever.

34:13 It just didn't make any sense. In his formal statement, James stuck to the account he'd already given. Ashley's autopsy took place on January 28th, two days after her body was discovered. When it was over, the forensic pathologist pulled the detectives waiting outside into an office and asked them directly, are you guys homicide detectives? They said yes. Well, that's good, she told them, because I really think you have a homicide here. Ashley hadn't died in the fire. There was no soot in her airways and no carbon monoxide in her blood. Both telltale signs of someone who'd been alive and breathing when a fire started around them. Additionally, what remained of her muscles and bones turned up none of the skull, rib, or limb fractures typically seen in car crash victims. Instead, the pathologist found that Ashley had died from compression to her neck. Her neck itself hadn't been broken in the crash. She was confident of that. The cause was either ligature or manual strangulation. Ashley Schwalm was already dead before anyone lit the fire that consumed her body.

35:22 It wasn't just Ashley's body that told a story. Forensic investigators at Ontario's Centre of Forensic Sciences in Toronto also made an intriguing find while searching through the vehicle. A metal lighter that survived the blaze was engraved with the initials JWS. So probably don't recall from the beginning, but James's middle name was William Schwalm. So here's a lighter with his initials engraved on it in the car. Yeah, that's pretty bad. Investigators kept that finding under wraps. They didn't want the public or whoever was responsible to know yet that this had become a murder investigation. Back at the police station, they set up a war room with a whiteboard tracking leads, names, and the next steps. Someone taped up a photograph of Ashley beside it. so that no one working the case would lose sight of who they were working for.

36:15 It's a bit ironic that all signs here are starting to point to James, who is a firefighter, when his wife died in a fire in her car, and a lighter is found with his initials on it. It's like a detail that you almost couldn't make up. And you said one of the windows was open. I wouldn't know to leave a window open to get oxygen to the fire. But leaving the lighter behind... That wasn't intentional, I'm guessing. Oh, I'm sure it wasn't intentional. He may have thought that it was going to get burned up in the fire. Like maybe he thought it was going to get consumed. But it's a metal lighter and they were able to clean it off, you know, well enough to be able to see. It almost seems like it's too damning.

36:58 Almost, yeah. Like someone would be framing him and using his lighter and leaving it there. Yeah. While James was the obvious suspect, the detectives had to look into other possibilities as well. They tracked down the contractor James had mentioned, the one who'd gotten into a heated dispute with Ashley over the cost of some work, at her family's chalet. Detectives found a trail of unpleasant emails between the two of them, but he had an alibi for the time when Ashley's car was set ablaze. After interviewing him, they were satisfied he had nothing to do with Ashley's death. The other possible suspects were Steve McDonald, or his wife, now ex-wife, Alexandra. James had told investigators about the affair Ashley had had the year before and said that the marriage counseling had been going well. Steve and Alexandra had recently finalized their divorce, a direct result of the affair. Steve came in right away after police reached out. He had a strong alibi. He told them that he'd spent the night at his new girlfriend's condo in Toronto and and parking garage footage confirmed his car had been there the entire time, coming and going exactly when he said it had. He was ruled out. Investigators also tracked down Alexandra McDonald. She had been on a flight home from a ski trip in Austria at the time of Ashley's death. That was easily confirmed, and she was cleared as well. The obvious suspects were falling away, leaving only one person in the sights of the detectives investigating Ashley's murder. And the more they looked, the more

38:29 his story continued to fall apart. So all of the people in the story have money. Why weren't they suspicious that they could have hired someone? I'm sure they considered that possibility. But I think after interviewing each of them, you know, they came to the conclusion that they weren't really involved. And I think by this time, all signs were pointing to James anyway. So they were probably a little more apt to rule out these other folks potentially. relatively quickly. I totally understand that, but it does seem like you want to rule out every possibility before, you know, you target, you hone in on James. Sure. We'll be back after a break.

39:11 Well, we're going to talk about video footage. We've talked about this before on the podcast, but you can't go anywhere without being captured on video. And that even holds true in the Blue Mountains ski area of Ontario. 5 a.m. in the morning. That's right. Detectives began canvassing homes and businesses for security footage, focusing especially on the 10-mile stretch of road between the Schwalm House and the crash site. Their first important clue came from the Alpine Ski Club, not far from where the outlander had gone off the road. This is the footage we mentioned earlier that showed the vehicle pulling into the parking lot at 5.42 in the morning, and pulling back out just three minutes later, at 5.45, a figure could be seen walking around the car in the lot, but the footage was too distant and grainy to make out anything useful about who it was. But the question is, was this James doing the final preparations before staging the accident?

40:06 Jordan Hagerman's 911 call had come in at 5.54 a.m. Just a few minutes after that, at 5.57, a different camera nearby. Picked up someone running away from the direction of the crash scene, a figure with a backpack on. Another camera, a bit further down the road, appeared to catch the same person, still running, and then another, a little further still. No camera captured a clear look at the runner's face. It could have been nothing, maybe someone out for an early jog in the snow. Detectives also went looking for footage to confirm James' account of his own morning. specifically footage of him walking the dog, along the route he had described and mapped out for them, they found nothing.

40:50 Not one camera along that route, on homes where residents had cameras running, showed James or the dog anywhere at all. Two detectives even walked the entire route themselves, starting at 5.14 a.m., the exact time that James said he had left the house, just to see which home cameras would pick them up. Their walk showed up clearly on eight different cameras along the way. James hadn't appeared on a single one. Looking back over their earlier recorded interview with him, detectives noticed a small, odd moment. When they told James they would be looking for footage confirming his dog walk, his lip developed a visible, nervous tick. Sorry, I didn't put it together, he said, which is a strange thing to say in hindsight about a request to verify an alibi. It was almost like he was admitting to himself that he had missed that detail of his cover-up. There was something else, too.

41:45 Footage from the small engine repair shop where James was working that morning. At the exact moment police had first shown up at his house to notify him of the crash, he pulled out his phone and studied it intently. It seemed that he was watching the detectives arrive on his own doorbell camera in real time. Soon after that moment, the same footage showed him carrying what looked like a laptop, dropping it into a trash can at the shop, and then wheeling that same trash can out and emptying it. By the time detectives went looking for the laptop in the dumpster, it was gone. So this repair shop he worked at, actually, it was pretty convenient. It had a camera that was trained on the counter, which he worked behind.

42:28 And so they saw it like when they went to the house. He immediately pulled out his phone like he got a notification that, hey, someone's at your front door. Yeah. So he knew they were there. It seems like James isn't really aware of how often he's being filmed. I don't think any of us are aware as much as we are being filmed. I know there's a lot more traffic cameras than there used to be, and I really am not sure where they are. Yeah, I think they're pretty much everywhere. By this point, investigators were confident that James had killed his wife, but they were still stuck on a critical detail. How had he pulled it off and still made it home in time to shower, feed the kids breakfast, and walk them to school as if nothing had happened? They had seen the figure running away from the scene, but it was 10 miles from the crash site to James' front door.

43:16 Based on the timeline, James would have had at most an hour and 15 minutes to cover that distance. Detectives ran an experiment. They found one of the fittest people in their office and had him run the route. It took him an hour and 25 minutes, 10 to 15 minutes too long. They wondered if James might have used a bike for part of the trip and had their runner try again, riding part of the way. They got the time down to 45 minutes, which was well within the window, but no camera anywhere along the route ever caught sight of anyone on a bike. But James was in good shape, but even to imagine running 10 miles in the snow that morning in that amount of time is really hard to explain that that could actually be feasible.

44:03 The math wasn't adding up. Despite the mounting evidence against James, they still couldn't explain physically how he could have been in two places 10 miles apart in the span of just over an hour. A few days after Ashley's murder, detectives made a connection with another phone call received by the police department on the day of her death. The call was from a first grade teacher who said one of her students had shared something with her that morning that she felt she needed to pass along. The little girl had told the teacher that she hadn't had a very good night. She had woken up to the sound of her parents fighting, and then she thought she'd heard her mom fall down the stairs. When the teacher asked if she had seen her mom afterward, the girl said no, but her dad had called up the stairs to say her mom was okay. Unable to fall back asleep, she had gotten up and made herself an elastic band necklace to pass the time. When the teacher asked if she had seen her mom that morning before school, the girl said no again. Her mom had gone out for a hike, according to her dad. As you probably figured out, that little girl was Ashley and James' six-year-old daughter.

45:10 That's so heartbreaking. So she was so young, but she still knew exactly what was going on, it sounds like. Yeah, and the fact that she told her teacher this. And yeah, it's a really heartbreaking detail, too, that she couldn't get back to sleep. And so she got up and, you know, made this little necklace. And the teacher, you know, conscientiously called the police, which is really good, but they didn't connect it. It took a couple of days to connect that. That call was, you know, related to the Schwalm family. Wow. The detectives working Ashley's murder case didn't find out about this call until a few days after her death. This new information was a turning point in the investigation. They asked James to bring both kids in for what they described as a routine interview. James agreed and allowed detectives to interview the children on their own.

45:55 In the moment, though, neither child offered much of anything useful. They were nervous and uncomfortable in an unfamiliar room with unfamiliar adults asking questions about the worst night of their lives. But the little girl's account, relayed secondhand through her teacher, had already provided insights into what actually happened in the Schwalm household that night, a fight and a fall down the stairs. Now, remind me, Ashley didn't have any broken bones or any bruising? No, other than her neck. Okay. By this time, investigators had a mountain of circumstantial evidence, a body found on the wrong side of the car, a cause of death that had nothing to do with the crash, a story about a hike that didn't match Ashley's own documented habits, a total absence of any footage backing up James' account of his own mourning, and a young daughter's account of a fight and a fall the night before her mother died.

46:50 Detectives met with prosecutors to walk through everything they had. Here is what they believed at that point. What started as an argument spiraled into violence, resulting in Ashley's death. James panicked afterward and came up with an elaborate cover story, dressing Ashley's body in hiking gear, she was found, wearing metal-studded winter hiking boots, to sell the idea that she had gone out on her own that morning. They believed that James had left to take the dog for a walk, then used his phone to briefly disable his home security camera long enough to slip back inside undetected. Then he set up the elaborate string of texts sent from Ashley's phone, describing her supposed morning of gas fumes and vertigo. From there, he had driven her body to the Alpine Ski Club, doused the vehicle in gasoline, driven it into the ravine, and then set it on fire. On February 2nd, 2023, one week after Ashley's death, police arrested James Schwalm as he pulled into his driveway, his children in the backseat of the car. He was charged with second-degree murder and indignity to a body. As he was taken away, his young son, still in the back seat, asked the arresting detective if he would ever see his father again. James' co-workers at the fire hall were stunned. Many of them refused to believe it, instead thinking this must be a terrible mistake.

48:14 After his arrest, the investigation continued and more information was uncovered. A doctor who knew James socially came forward and told detectives that at a gathering just days before Ashley's death, James had asked him, seemingly out of nowhere, whether it was possible to kill someone by snapping their neck. James had framed it at the time as an attempt to settle a debate with his co-workers about how realistic that move looked like in an old Steven Seagal movie. The doctor hadn't thought much of it at the moment, especially since investigators hadn't released the detail that Ashley's death was the result of a strangulation. So to be fair, I'm always curious about that too, because you see it in so many movies where someone just snaps someone's head sideways and they're dead. And I'm always like, is that really like, can that really happen?

49:00 Is that really feasible? Digging into James's phone, detectives also found a search history in the weeks leading up to the murder that revealed his evolving mindset. First, searches about the cost of alimony and divorce revealed followed by searches asking whether police could see what someone had searched online and whether deleted documents history could be recovered. Here's a little tip. The answer is yes. Well, has he never seen Dateline? Right. On January 19th, he searched a garbled version of the phrase, Can you see iPhone history after deleted? On January 24th, the day before the murder, he searched, does a road flare completely burn? And throw road flare into fire. And then there were the gas cans. The day before the murder, at 7.53 in the morning, James had texted Ashley, quote, there are two gas cans in garage and workbench. Please, please, can you fill them up? I forgot to bring them here.

49:56 In his police interview, James said the gas was for his snowblower. He suggested Ashley did fill the cans and had simply forgotten to take them out of the car afterward, which conveniently explained the smell of gasoline she supposedly complained about in a text the morning of her death. But when detectives checked with every gas station in Collingwood, there was no record of Ashley filling up any gas cans anywhere on the day in question. What they did find was home surveillance footage from two days before the murder, showing James loading a red gas can into the back of his own vehicle. before heading out for his overnight shift at the fire hall. Do they have gas pumps at the fire station?

50:36 I would imagine that they do. James hadn't needed gas for the snowblower at all. He needed a reason for there to be gasoline in his wife's car when it burned. The new evidence seemed to point to premeditation, and there was more to come. Days before the murder, home surveillance footage showed James physically repositioning one of his security cameras, moving it from inside the garage to a spot at the back of the house. Did he want that particular angle removed from view? James had also told police that his home surveillance system automatically powered down every morning at 6am on a set schedule. This was why he claimed cameras never captured him coming back from his dog walk that morning. But when detectives examined the system directly, they found multiple recordings from after 6 a.m. There was even one from the morning of the murder showing James clearing the driveway with a snowblower.

51:30 He was clearly lying about the 6 a.m. automated shutdown of the system. In yet another piece of video evidence pointing to premeditation, detectives found that there was a dash cam installed in James' vehicle. Reviewing the footage, they discovered that he had driven into the Alpine Ski Club parking lot the day before Ashley's death, with his young son in the car. If you recall, this was the spot near the crash site where the Mitsubishi was seen on the day of the murder, with someone getting out of the car and walking around it. It seems that James was rehearsing for what he would do the next day. The final piece of the puzzle, how James could possibly have made the 10-mile trip home from the crash site in the narrow window of time available to him, finally came together when detectives dug into a phone call he'd made to his mother the day before the murder. James had asked to borrow her Hyundai Kona, telling her that he had a long hike planned for the next morning and needed a vehicle waiting for him at the far end of the route. She agreed and that evening, James parked her Kona in the lot at the Craigleith's North Lodge, not far from the crash site. Reviewing footage and data from the Kona's onboard navigation system, detectives learned that its engine had started up at 6.01 a.m., just a few minutes after the flames were spotted. From there, cameras along the way tracked its route into Collingwood, ending in the parking lot of Admiral Collingwood Elementary, the school near their

53:00 house that the children attended. James hadn't driven the borrowed car all the way home, Instead, he had left the car at the school and ran 250 yards home. He was captured by a neighbor's security camera running onto his street at 7.07 a.m. Later that morning, he called his mother to let her know that she could pick up her car from the school parking lot. Detectives found a text from her asking him to confirm. Just so I'm clear, my car was at the school? His reply was yes. It all clicked into place. James had driven Ashley's body to the Alpine Ski Club parking lot, gotten out, walked to the passenger side and doused her body in gasoline, staged the crash, set the car on fire, ran just over a mile to where he had parked his mom's car at Craigleaf, driven her car to the elementary school, and then ran the rest of the way home. Once there, he showered, made breakfast, walked his children to school, and went to his job at the small engine repair shop.

54:00 All of it was just an ordinary Thursday. With all the new evidence showing premeditation, prosecutors upgraded the charge against James Schwalm from second-degree murder to first-degree murder. This is quite an elaborate cover-up he put in place here with all the, you know, arranging his mom's car and even like turning off his own camera so it didn't capture him coming back after he left to walk the dog. He really put a lot of thought into this, but obviously he missed so many things as well. Well, he missed a lot of cameras along the way, right? Yeah. Do you think his mom was suspicious at all? That's a good question. I mean, you know, parents don't want to ever believe something like that about their kids. As detectives built their case, they discovered an additional detail that was unexpected. Looking through James' phone, they found a contact saved under a fake name. It belonged to Alexandra MacDonald, the ex-wife of Steve MacDonald, the man Ashley had an affair with the year before. James and Alexandra, it turned out, had been quietly texting each other not long after both of their marriages were upended by the same affair. When detectives interviewed Alexandra, she admitted that what had started as a kind of shared grief friendship had turned into something more.

55:13 There were feelings on both sides, feelings that James, in particular, wanted to act on. In the four weeks leading up to Ashley's murder, James and Alexandra exchanged more than 1,000 text messages. Five days before Ashley's death, James had texted her, I wish you were here. She replied, but you're with the wife, followed by a grimacing emoji. James wrote back, not really. She's here, but we're not. I'm happy with my decision, but no one else knows it's what I want. Please don't tell anyone. Alexandra pointed out that he hadn't actually told her anything specific about what decision he was referring to, so how could she tell anyone? Investigators found no evidence that Alexandra had any knowledge that he was planning to kill Ashley. She was ruled out as having played any part in Ashley's death. The financial motive came together just as clearly. Detectives learned that James stood to benefit substantially from Ashley's death. There were two life insurance policies on her. one worth $ 250, 000 with the children named as beneficiaries, and a second worth a million dollars payable directly to James. If Ashley died, James would keep the house.

56:27 He'd keep custody of the kids without a contested divorce. He'd be a million dollars richer. His community would rally around him with sympathy rather than suspicion. And in time, he'd be free to pursue a new relationship with Alexandra MacDonald. As the investigation moved toward trial, the Schwalm children began attending therapy. Slowly, in that safer setting, they started to share more of what they remembered from that night. Their son, nine years old at the time, described waking to the sound of his parents arguing. When he opened his bedroom door, he saw his mother and father standing together in the upstairs hallway. His mother asked him to bring her cell phone so she could call the police. He retrieved it from her bedroom and handed it to her. and then his father told him to go back to bed. He did as he was told. Ashley never got the chance to make that call. Later, the boy woke again and came out of his room to find his father crying downstairs, near the mudroom that connected the house to the garage.

57:28 He heard his father say out loud, What time is it, Alexa? addressing the family's virtual assistant, and heard the device answer that it was 3 o'clock in the morning. Later still, he woke a third time and saw his father putting on his coat telling him that he was going to take the dog out for a walk before sending him back to bed once more. The next time he woke up, it was morning and his father was in the shower. He and his sister ate breakfast, got dressed, and their father walked them to school, telling them that their mother had gone out for a hike. It's so heartbreaking hearing about this, that both kids woke up, heard the fight, and, you know, witnessed some aspect of this. Yeah.

58:09 More than a year after his arrest, James made it known through his lawyer that he was interested in a deal, a guilty plea to second-degree murder in exchange for the possibility of a lighter sentence than a first-degree conviction would guarantee. Under Canadian law, a first-degree murder conviction carries a mandatory life sentence with a chance of parole in 25 years. A second-degree conviction still carries a mandatory life sentence but leaves the parole eligibility period up to the judge's discretion, anywhere from 10 to 25 years. Prosecutors brought the offer to Ashley's family. Given how calculated and cold-blooded the murder had been, the family believed a judge would hand down the harshest sentence available, regardless of the specific charge, and they agreed to accept the deal rather than put everyone through a lengthy trial. In June 2024, James formally pleaded guilty.

59:04 signing a statement of fact acknowledging every detail investigators had uncovered, at the hearing, 21 of Ashley's family and friends delivered victim impact statements. James sat through it all without visible emotion, his eyes never meeting the people speaking. Ashley's brother David expressed his fury that James killed the Her sister-in-law spoke about how the family had all rallied around and consoled James, all while he knew that he had killed her. Ashley's father, Ian Milnes, spoke last. He had already lost his wife to cancer two decades earlier, and now he found himself living through the loss of his daughter. He told the courtroom, AJ will miss the kids growing up, bandaging their cuts, consoling their breakups, cheering them on to victory and enjoying them growing to adulthood. No proms, no graduations, no marriages, no grandchildren. He looked directly at his former son-in-law as he spoke. This selfish act only benefited you, Jamie. Crown Prosecutor Lynn Saunders argued for a lengthy period of parole ineligibility between 21 and 22 years, pointing to the sheer number of aggravating factors, a brutal murder committed in the family home while the children were present, extensive planning and premeditation, an elaborate cover-up, including a staged crash and fire, James' decision as a trained firefighter to use his own professional

1:00:34 knowledge to ensure that the fire burned effectively, a clear financial motive, and the devastating lifelong impact on the two children who would now grow up without either of their parents. Defense attorney Ms. Klein argued for a far shorter period, 13 to 14 years, citing James' guilty plea, his lack of any prior criminal record, his attempts at rehabilitation while in custody, including grief counseling, anger management classes, and even parenting classes, and letters from fellow inmates describing him as a positive, helpful presence behind bars. When it came time for James to speak, he rose and read from a handwritten page. I never thought of myself as someone capable of taking these horrendous actions, he said, his voice breaking.

1:01:22 He said he was ashamed of having hurt the people who loved him, He said he wished to be a resource for others in his situation, somebody to turn to. But he didn't ask for leniency, telling the courtroom, The judge sentenced James Schwalm to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 20 years, meaning he'll be 58 years old before he's eligible for release. It was the longest sentence in Canadian history, handed down to someone with no prior criminal record. The judge also barred him from any contact with his two children until they turn 18, at which point they can choose whether or not to have a relationship with him. After James' arrest, the Schwalm children went to live with Ashley's younger brother David Milnes and his wife Tia. In their victim impact statements, they described just how much of the children's world had been taken from them. Not just their mother, but their home, their friends, their school. all of it uprooted in the aftermath.

1:02:26 The kids are now afraid to be left alone and they're distrustful of firefighters. They can't stand getting into cars knowing how their mother's body was found. Their childhood innocence, happiness, and freedom are all gone, Tia Milnes told the court. This will follow the children for their entire lives. In September 2025, nearly three years after her murder, Ashley's family and friends finally felt ready to celebrate her life rather than simply mourn her death. Partnering with a local domestic violence shelter called My Friend's House, they organized a memorial hike in her honor, a fitting tribute to a woman who loved the outdoors so much. Ashley had always loved sunflowers, and a local grower donated hundreds of them for the occasion.

1:03:11 175 people showed up. The event raised money for a new charity created in Ashley's memory, the Sunflower Fund, which supports children affected by domestic violence. helping cover the cost of camps, therapy, and other resources for kids trying to rebuild some sense of normalcy after an unthinkable loss. Rest in peace, Ashley. So a few things I wanted to discuss with you. One is that James, he had this public identity of someone dedicated to service, right? It was really important in his family. And he, you know, chose to be a firefighter. And a lot of people saw him as a hero. And I wonder, do you think that his fear of losing that image might have factored into his decision to kill Ashley rather than go through a divorce.

1:03:57 Well, you said that he came from a family that had a long history of service, right? And he posted pictures on social media wanting to portray himself as a hero. I think he did identify as a helper. Yeah. And in this case, maybe he felt like the situation was out of his hands. But in 2023, are you going to get away with murder? Yeah, I think James... had no idea how hard it was going to be to get away with murder. I think he hatched this plot that he probably thought was brilliant. And at first glance, when I first started researching this case, I was like, oh, that was actually pretty brilliant. He was on video taking the dog for a walk, and then a minute later, Ashley's car pulls out of the driveway. Well, how could that be him? He thought of the idea of turning the camera off. But who goes for, takes.

1:04:44 The dog for an hour walk at five o'clock in the morning after a snowstorm? Like there were just some things that seemed like really weren't that well thought out. Yeah, it was an elaborate plan, but he missed so many things in putting together that plan. Like I think he thought, I'm brilliant, I'm going to get away with this. And it wasn't even close. I found it interesting that James and Alexandra McDonald ended up having a relationship. It didn't, the things I read and saw about it It sounds like the relationship hadn't quite turned romantic. It sounds like an emotional affair rather than a physical affair. Yeah, I think that's true. But I wonder how often that type of thing happens. Like your spouse has an affair with someone and then you end up having a relationship with the other spouse.

1:05:28 It happens a lot. Even in our small world, we know a couple that that happened to. We do. I'll have to tell you later. I can't wait to hear who that is off air because I can't remember off the top of my head. I think it's a really tough situation. There's a lot of toxicity when that happens and it's unlikely to work out. Yeah, I think so too. It's like you definitely find yourself drawn to this other person because you've both been through this exact same experience with the exact same people. But I think the likelihood of it working out is probably pretty slim. Yeah. I have a question for you. Do you think that Ashley having had the affair made James feel like it was okay to kill her?

1:06:09 He could have justified it in his mind that way that, yeah, she cheated on him, so maybe she deserved it. It seems in a lot of situations when one partner has an affair, the other partner has it in the back of their head. They might try to move on, but until they have an affair, they feel like it's unsettled, like the score isn't even. Yeah, I think that's probably true too. You're like, yeah, you had an affair. I should get to have a free pass. One of the things that really breaks my heart is that James chose to kill Ashley while their nine-year-old and six-year-old were home and that the kids heard so much of it. Like, I think you always think, oh, kids are asleep. They sleep through anything. But, you know, the kids witnessed a lot of this and I just, it makes me so sad and it just makes me wonder, you know, what will it take for the children to be able to deal with that trauma? Yeah.

1:07:03 Well, I'm going to make you sad because I'm going to tell you that I used to hear my parents fight and it was really sad and I would be scared and I would go into my sister's bed and I would sleep with my sister on the nights that I heard my parents fighting. So, yeah. I'm a little confused about the timeline of when Ashley was killed. Because you said it was premeditated, but it seems like they were having a fight. Or do you think that he could have tried to strangle her in her sleep and she woke up? And that's when the fight erupted? Yeah, it's a good question. The fact is we don't really know the exact timeline. We know that the kids woke up at various points during the night, but the only time we know is when their son heard James ask Alexa what time it was, and it was 3 a.m., but that was later after the fight had already happened.

1:07:50 But yeah, it is curious. If this was premeditated, why was there even a fight? If you were going to kill someone and you planned on doing it, You wouldn't want there to be a fight. You would want to kill them before they had a chance to react or fight back. So it does seem like, yeah, maybe he started choking her while she was sleeping and she woke up and maybe that resulted in an altercation. And as far as you know, he didn't have defensive wounds. No, I didn't read anything about any defensive wounds that he had. Last question for you is around, James pled guilty to second degree murder because he was hoping it would give a lighter sentence. And Ashley's family agreed. So investigators, the DA took it to Ashley's family. They agreed, even though it meant a lighter sentence. Do you think that you would have agreed to that or would you have wanted it to go to trial?

1:08:40 I feel like, I don't know. I haven't been in that situation and I respect the family's decision. I think to put the kids through a trial might have just been too much. I think that's the main thing is the kids would have had to testify in this trial. So I think they looked at the cost benefit of that and said, you know, the kids have already been through so much. Let's not put them through anymore. To me, it's chilling in this case that he used fire to not kill Ashley, but to dispose of her remains. Fire to me is just, I don't know, just so brutal and painful and his history being saving people from fires. Right. Just really disturbing.

1:09:21 It is disturbing. And you're burning this person's body beyond recognition. So, you know, her remains are desecrated, essentially. That's your children's mom. Yeah. It's just so sad to me. Yeah. Chilling that someone can be so cruel. Yeah. And do that to their partner and, you know, to do that to your children. The mother. Yeah. I mean, it's just, yeah, it's unthinkable. And her funeral probably, you know, had to be closed casket. It did, yeah. And her children didn't. They have a chance to say goodbye and see their mom one final time. It's just really heartbreaking. It really is. Well, that is the story of Ashley and James Schwalm. Let us know what you think. Well, as promised, I did look up a few Dolly Parton facts because we're all grieving the loss of Dolly Parton.

1:10:11 And I wanted to find some things. There's been a lot of stories that have come out about her. I tried to find a few things that maybe people didn't. don't know about. You probably do know about a lot of these, but one thing I found is that Dolly Parton wore makeup to sleep. She didn't take her makeup off before she went to sleep at night. She said, you never know if you're going to wreck the bus. You never know if you're going to be somewhere in a hotel and there's going to be a fire. So I leave my makeup on at night and clean my face in the morning. She said, I started sleeping with my makeup on partly because of the earthquakes. I thought, I'm not heading out of the streets without makeup in case there are cameras out there. I want to be ready to go. I did hear her tell one story about she was with a friend and she was like, well, I guess I'm going to die because I'm not leaving this hotel without my makeup on.

1:10:56 She was very, very concerned about her appearance. She was a beautiful lady. I feel like people don't talk about that enough. Yeah, for sure. She used to get up at 3 a.m. most mornings. So she would get up and do her, she would do some meditation. She would do a little spiritual work and then she would get ahead of her day by checking her mail and making calls. She said, I do more work between 3 and 7 than most people do all day because it's quiet and the energy is all low-key except for mine. I just love the wee hours. Wow, that is crazy because I read something that one of her nieces wrote, I believe, and she said, you know, I was talking about how much she'll miss, and she said, but I won't miss those 4 a.m. calls. And I wasn't sure if she meant that, you know, Dolly had stayed up late, but apparently she must have been people as soon as she woke up.

1:11:45 That's amazing, isn't it? I'm so envious of people that get up super early and are productive at that early in the morning. Well, I need to point out here, as someone who doesn't get up super early, that what time you wake up is morally neutral. That's true. That's true. You can be productive whenever you're awake. You can be productive at night. Yeah, as long as you get your job done, it doesn't matter what time you do it. But I do get the idea of I'm not bothered by anybody else and I'm able to focus, but You may know this one, but did you know that Dolly Parton was Miley Cyrus's honorary godmother? Yeah, I knew that. Everyone knows that. Does everyone know that one? Okay. I didn't know that one. Here's another one that I think everyone probably knows, but there is a song that will be released in either 2045 or 2046. I've read two different accounts. Well, the one account is, she said when she's 99, it will be released to celebrate the 30th anniversary of Dollywood in any case. Sometime about 20 years from now, she has a song that she put into like a time capsule that has never been heard that will be released. We know the song is called My Place in History.

1:12:50 Okay. But that's all we know about it. Well, I, again, so I saw my... Instagram this week was completely Dolly. Like every reel I watched was of Dolly. And I heard her talking about this as well. And she was like, I kind of regret the decision because it's a really good song. Yeah. So I hope we make it because I would love to hear this song. I hope we're around to hear it. Yeah. And then I also have some interesting things about Carl, her husband, her longtime husband who passed away, I think just a couple of years before her. I think about 18 months ago. Yeah. So, well, first of all, the day after Dolly became, she was the first member of her family to graduate high school in 1964. And the day after she graduated, she moved to Nashville to make it. And she met Carl that day, the first day she was in Nashville.

1:13:38 They crossed paths outside the wishy-washy laundromat. And he said, my first thought was, I'm going to marry that girl. Carl never, he like didn't do interviews very often. He like kept a. Very low profile. And this surprised me, but he actually hardly ever went to any performance events. from Dolly. He was too nervous to watch her perform because he was afraid that she would mess up or something. So he hardly ever saw her perform, which is kind of shocking. And then my last thing, which is one of my favorite things about Dolly Parton is she, she wrote the song. I will always love you. She wrote it about, she was partners with, or she Wagner. Yeah, exactly. So she had worked for him for like five years.

1:14:19 She wanted to go out on his own. He didn't want her to go out on her own. So she wrote that song. Basically, it wasn't a romantic song. It was a song about him saying, you know, I'll always love you, but I have to go start out on my own. And my favorite thing about this whole that song is that Elvis Presley wanted to record that song. And she initially she was so excited about it. But his manager said, well, he demands he he will have to have 50 percent of the publishing rights of that song. And she was like, I can't do it. And people told her she was crazy. Like, this is Elvis Presley recording. she wasn't a big star at the time. And she was like, no, it's my song. I can't give away half of my song, which ended up paying off because eventually Whitney Houston. Yeah. And it made Dolly Parton a huge amount of money, which basically helped her open Dollywood.

1:15:07 But just that idea that she was care, you know, she cared that deeply. She was so smart. And I feel like people, you know, just dismiss her sometimes because, you know, she was kind of, she wore a lot of makeup and she wore a lot of rhinestones, but. Smart, smart lady. Smart and really like dedicated to her own work, right? She believed in herself and her work and that, you know, I think that's inspiring and definitely something that I take away from her life. And her generosity can't be overstated. She lived a very humble life compared to her wealth. She gave so much of her money away to amazing causes and the Imagination Library.

1:15:48 Right. It was a tribute to her father, who she said was illiterate, but the smartest man that she ever knew. She gave away over 300 million books. Wow. And her family promises it will live on beyond her. We made a donation this week. She was truly an amazing woman. One of a kind. We were lucky we had her for 80 years. Rest in peace, Dolly. Do you remember going to Dollywood? I do, yeah. We went as a family. I just remember you had to put your hand out. Remember? No. When you Walked in, they took your picture, and everyone had to hold their hand out. And then later on, when you went to see the picture at the gift booth or whatever, there was a butterfly in your hand. Oh, I don't remember that at all. Yeah, I was trying to find that picture this week.

1:16:29 We should try to look that up. My biggest Dolly Parton memory is seeing the movie 9 to 5 when I was a kid with my mom. I loved that movie so much. It was just such a fun movie. And the whole scene where she is having this fantasy of Chasing Dabney Coleman down with a rodeo, like, lasso. So funny. I love that. It's just so hilarious. Yeah, she is amazing in that movie. I meant to rewatch it this week. I have a funny Dolly story. I don't know if it's true or not. Okay. I don't think I've ever told you this. My mom had a friend who grew up in Tennessee in the Pigeon Forge area. I don't know if she went to high school with Dolly, but she knew Dolly. And she would always say that she was flat-chested. What?! I always question that because I don't think she had artificial.

1:17:16 I'm sure she was at some point, but yeah. Yeah, I mean, maybe when she was like a young teenager. I don't really know. That is funny. Well, thank you all so much for listening. We will always love you. Until next time. Don't kill your husband. And don't kill your wife. The film, which will be released in the U.S. at the end of the year, will feature a new Thank you.