Aug. 17, 2026

Betty and Allan Gore/Candy and Pat Montgomery - Part 3 of 3

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In 1980, Betty and Allan Gore and Candy and Pat Montgomery seemed to have much in common. They were raising young families, active in the same small Methodist church, and navigating the pressures of marriage, careers, and parenthood in the growing suburbs north of Dallas. This three-part series follows the relationships that developed between the two couples, the affair that changed all of their lives, and the investigation and trial that became one of the most talked-about murder cases in Texas history.

Support us on Patreon: https://patreon.com/lovemarrykill

Today's snack: Texas sheet cake

WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Tina, and I'm rich. Here's one thing that

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we've learned at over twenty years of marriage.

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It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hello, my love, Hello, my darling.

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How are you?

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I am doing pretty good. How are you?

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I'm good. This is the celebration week of our anniversary,

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so I'm going to be extra nice to you today.

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The celebration. Oh you mean when this episode will post?

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Yes, okay, you got you were breaking out in a

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sweating for a second.

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You're really scared me for you? Sure, are you? Yeah,

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of course I do.

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How are we going to celebrate?

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I don't know. Maybe a nice dinner, go see a

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play performance of some sort. I don't know.

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I don't know either.

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We'll figure something out. We've got a little time.

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It's been a lot of years, are you ever Like

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I can't believe. I mean, it's been a lot a

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lot of years. Yeah, it's kind of crazy.

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Yeah, it's been a lot of years.

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Like when we got married, I was always like, yeah,

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I don't know, maybe it'll last.

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I know, I thought it maybe would last, you know,

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ten years.

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But you weren't expecting over over twenty. I'm not going

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to say how so over twenty could mean sixty fifty,

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you know. Yeah, we that be one hundred and twelve.

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No one really knows. People would like to know.

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But it has been a long time, many many years

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of bliss.

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And happiness and some of not so happiness.

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Right, I don't think there's been any years of not happiness,

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crazy stuff. There's been a few moments and times.

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Yeah, yeah, do you have a big gift plan for

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your lovely wife?

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Of course, why would you even have to ask?

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I am in a question state that I promise you

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don't need to get me anything. I think you've got

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me like a nice necklace or something last year, and

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I don't know. You're good, Okay, I promise you don't

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need to get me anything. A nice dinner together, and

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I think we're going on vacation, so I'm sure we'll

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cherry donut. That's what you can get me.

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Okay, we will stop looking forward to the cherry donut,

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of course. I mean that is yeah, one of the

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highlights of going up north.

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Yeah, we haven't been to Chervers City in a while,

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so I am looking forward to that. But our last

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podcast I always get post recording, I'm like, what did

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I say? Because a lot of times I don't remember

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what I say.

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I thought you were going to say, Like you get

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anxiety about things you forgot to say.

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Too, but the whole thing just gives me anxiety. But

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I'm like, I can't believe I told everyone I don't

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know my right from my left, which I do, but.

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But in the moment sometimes.

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Yeah, right, okay, But I wonder if there is something

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that you could reveal to all of us to make

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me feel better about being such a cotton headed Ninni

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muggins all the time.

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You're not a cotton headed ninny.

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Sometimes I don't know if you would call me DITSI,

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But no, I.

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Don't think so. I think we all have our things.

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I was just thinking about this the other day because

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we were talking about it. I have a really hard

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time understanding how time works and daylight savings time. It

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confuses the hell out of me.

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I'm I know it sounds like you never remember if

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we gain an hour or we lose an hour.

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No, I remember spring forward, fallback, But I can't wrap

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my head around like, okay, that means we get an

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extra hour of daylight or no, does that mean one

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less hour of daylight? I really can't I think wrap

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my head around that.

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Maybe, but we might not have to worry about that anymore.

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How do you feel.

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About that, they're going to make it permanent, right, I

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guess yeah, I would be. I think I would be

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in support of that. I'm not really sure what the

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value of daylight savings time. I think it was originally

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created so that to save electricity and so that kids

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didn't have to walk to school in the dark.

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Maybe, and I think that was part of it.

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So I don't know. It doesn't seem necessary to me anymore.

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I agree, I feel especially for young parents. Remember when

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our kids were really little, and it's really tough for

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kids to lose an hour and it's light outside.

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Yeah, it really does have an impact.

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Okay, Well, I did make you a Texas snack? Oh?

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Good smells?

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You have any ideas what it is?

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No?

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I could smell something. No, definitely didn't peak. I could

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smell something. It smelled good, but I had no idea

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what it was.

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I made Texas sheet cake. Oh did you make that

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once before?

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No? I don't think so.

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Okay, do you want to give it a try really quick?

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This is from the Pioneer Woman. Excellent rate My cake.

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Cake was great. It was I had a hankering for

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something sweet and chocolate e so that hit the spot.

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I would give it a nine out of ten.

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We have been horrible about rating our snacks. You need

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to get better about that. Okay. I have made Texas

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sheet cake before, and I don't think i've used that

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it be, but I thought this was great. I might

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even give it a ten out of ten, just because

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I wasn't sure how much i'd like it. I think

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the pecans on top are necessary.

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I didn't mind them. I'm not usually a big fan

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of nuts, but I thought that it went fine About him.

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I was going to put heath bits on yours because

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you don't love nuts, but we didn't have any. I

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think the nuts added something.

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I think Cosmo would like to weigh in on the Texas.

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No, his eyes right now staring at me. Anytime I

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eat something, he needs to check it for me.

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The pest.

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Yeah, he almost never takes a bite or licks anything,

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but he always wants to check it out.

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He wants to inspect your food, all right, let's.

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Get to the case. Finish this thing up. Do you

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know how this case ends?

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I really don't know. Okay, I remember watching the show,

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but I do not remember how it ends.

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I'm looking forward to finishing this and getting your opinion

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about how it ends, and our listener's opinions too. Do

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you want to read this?

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Sure? On Friday, June thirteenth, nineteen eighty, Candy Montgomery left

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vacation Bible School to make what should have been a

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quick stop at her friend Betty Gore's house to pick

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up Betty's daughter, Elisa's swimsuit. When she returned nearly two

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hours later, she had changed her clothes, bandaged a deep

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cut on her toe, and rehearsed an explanation for why

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she had been gone so long. Over the last two episodes,

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we've followed the friendship between Candy and Betty, their lives

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at the First United Methodist Church in Lucas, and the

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affair between Candy and Betty's husband, Alan Gore. Although the

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affair ended after Allan and Betty attended a marriage and

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counter weekend, it seemed both couples had put the past

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behind them. While Allan was away on a business trip,

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Betty was found brutally murdered in her laundry room after

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suffering forty one blows from an axe. Detectives quickly focused

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on those closest to her, including Allan and Candy. As

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the investigation intensified, Allan admitted he had lied about the affair,

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and police began collecting evidence from Candy, including her fingerprints, shoes,

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and clothing. Realizing that investigators were focused largely on her,

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Candy hired her friend and attorney, Don Crowder.

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Anything else we should mention, guess the.

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Only thing that comes to mind is that Pat Candy's

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husband found out about the affair. Right he found a

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letter that Alan had written to her, and he forgave her. Right,

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he found out about it, and he did some soul

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searching and went back to her, and basically we not.

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Only did he forgive her, but he took the blame

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for the affair. He said, the affair was my fault

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because I wasn't giving you the right kind of attention.

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And he gave her flowers, which was very generous. Yeah,

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Candy could feel the walls closing in. The police hadn't

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yet told her, but the bloody fingerprint from the Freezer

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was a match for her own. They had her at

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the scene of the crime. The newspaper headline that morning,

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screamed female friend of husband's sought an axe killing of

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wiley housewife an axe murderer was sensational enough, but the

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possibility that the killer was an axe wielding suburban housewife

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a scorned lover that was almost unimaginable. Reporters scrambled to

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get the scoop.

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It's kind of wild that the newspapers would publish a

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headline like that before an arrest was made. That sort

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of implicates Candy in this whole thing.

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The only one who Candy had admitted the truth to

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that she'd killed her sometimes friend, sometimes rival, Betty Gore

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brutally with forty one swings of an axe was Don Crowder,

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her friend and attorney. Don told Candy not to tell

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Pat or anyone else. Candy agreed to a police light

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detector test, but Don told her no way, explaining that

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the tests were unreliable. We'll have our person test you

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and see how you hold up, he said. Meanwhile, Alan

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wasn't Kansas with his family scheduled to travel back to

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Texas the following day. Investigators were headed there to question

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him again. They were sure how involved he was in

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Betty's murder, but them traveling to Kansas told him that

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they were pretty serious about the whole thing. The interview

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was tense and more appointed than the others. They asked

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him to take a polygraph The next day. He agreed

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with his new attorney in tow Allan was wired to

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the machine. Do you know who caused your wife's death? No?

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On or about June thirteenth, nineteen eighty are you yourself

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the one who caused your wife's death. No, At the

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time your wife was killed, were you physically present at

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the home?

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No?

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Did you plan or set up with anyone to have

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your wife killed? No? Before you arrived in Minnesota on

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or about June thirteenth, did you know your wife had

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been hurt or killed?

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No?

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Do you know anything about your wife's death? You're deliberately

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not telling me.

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No.

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Are you withholding any information regarding your wife's death that

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you have not admitted? No, you did a great job

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with those nose.

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Thank you.

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The administrator of the test saw no deception in any

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of Allen's answers. Meanwhile, Candy was submitting for her own

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physical and polygraph examination. She stripped down and pictures were

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taken of the deep cuts on her toe and hairline,

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as well as the healing bruises on her legs. They

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were only for her attorney's eyes.

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So the police never examined her her body, or she

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never submitted to them.

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Not at this point, and about a week has passed,

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so any bruising or injuries that she may have had

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probably healed right. On June twenty sixth, nineteen eighty, Candy

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learned there was a warrant for her arrest. Her bond

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was set at one hundred thousand dollars. After meeting with

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a bail bondsman, she turned herself in at eleven fifteen pm.

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The news media and spectators lining the street waiting for

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her arrivals captured every moment as Candy walked into the jail,

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where she was read her miranda rights, she appeared eerily calm,

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with a slight wry smile on her face. Unable to

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reach a financial agreement that night, Candy was forced to

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spend the night in jail. Pat had already given nearly

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all of the cash he had to pay Don Crowder,

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so he put their house up as collateral to secure

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her release. I'll post pictures from her rest, but she

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is smiling in a lot of them. It's a little eerie,

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but I think that she was struck. She was on

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volume or something. Inside the jail, Candy again stripped down

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and was handed a prison jumpsuit to wear. When the

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guard who was admitting her noticed the bruises on her body,

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they photographed them. Once authorities saw the severity of the

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bruises and wounds, they took her to the hospital to

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be examined by a doctor. Later this would be called

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an illegal strip search because it was used as evidence

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without a proper warrant. Once Candy was returned to the jail,

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peace washed over her and she made up her mind

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to hand everything over to God. She surprised herself by

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falling into a deep sleep, exhausted by the day.

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To your point earlier, this is now, like how far

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after ear.

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She was arrested on June twenty sixth, and Betty was

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murdered on June thirteenth.

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Oh, so eleven days and so she's still got bruises

252
00:12:23.559 --> 00:12:25.600
and wounds on our body at this point.

253
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As the news hit the papers the next day about

254
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Candy's arrest, her friends and even Pastor Ron Adams rushed

255
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to her defense, calling the allegations against her ridiculous. Adams

256
00:12:36.279 --> 00:12:39.840
told The Times Harold, She's a very pleasant, very loving

257
00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:42.480
sort of person. That she would be guilty of what

258
00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:47.440
they say is incomprehensible. She's not capable of committing murder.

259
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She's a very creative, very talented, very highly intelligent person.

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The members of the church are appalled. There's not a

261
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person out here who believes for a moment that she's guilty.

262
00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:03.240
Had personally called Pastor ran to ask him to rally

263
00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:07.240
the troops around Candy to sway public opinion. At her

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bond hearing the next morning, Candy was shocked to find

265
00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:13.360
throngs of reporters and spectators again waiting for a sighting

266
00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:18.000
of her flash bulbs, momentarily blinding her. After the hearing

267
00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:21.240
and bail was arranged, she was free to go. Later,

268
00:13:21.320 --> 00:13:24.000
an officer showed up at the Montgomery's house to seize

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00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:27.279
her station Wagon, a car that Candy had been driving

270
00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:31.000
on June thirteenth, was full of blood evidence. We talked

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00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:34.480
about this in episode two, but remember that Don Crowder,

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Candy's attorney, isn't very skilled with murder trials. She's never

273
00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:41.159
tried a murder case.

274
00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:43.759
Okay, Coy right, but he had help also, right, he

275
00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:45.080
did mey hireself at help.

276
00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:47.759
Well, it was his partner who was very young.

277
00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:52.159
Okay. Betty and Candy had both admired Pastor Jackie, though

278
00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:55.759
Betty especially looked up to her. Over the years, Jackie

279
00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:58.559
had grown close to both women, often serving as a

280
00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:02.600
confidant as they navigated the challenges of marriage, motherhood, and

281
00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:08.039
church life. Betty's death devastated Jackie. She knew how hard

282
00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:11.799
Betty had struggled with feelings of inadequacy and how desperately

283
00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:13.759
she had wanted to be a good wife and mother.

284
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Jackie had tried to encourage her, but after Betty's death,

285
00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:20.320
she couldn't help but wonder if she could have done more.

286
00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:25.200
When Candy was released from jail, Jackie visited the Montgomery's home.

287
00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:29.039
Candy's attorneys had instructed her not to discuss the case,

288
00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:32.960
and Jackie respected that. Still, as she sat with Candy

289
00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:37.120
and Pat, she couldn't shake the feeling that something was different. Candy,

290
00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:43.240
who normally carried herself with confidence and certainty, seemed emotionally distant. Later,

291
00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:46.320
Jackie and Pat quietly admitted to one another that she

292
00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:49.759
didn't seem like herself. They couldn't explain it, but they

293
00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:53.200
both felt she was holding something back. I wonder what

294
00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:56.600
that could be. On July ninth, nineteen eighty, a Collin

295
00:14:56.720 --> 00:15:01.279
County grand jury formally indicted Candy Montgomery Betty Gore's murder.

296
00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:05.240
The following morning, the Dallas Morning News published a bombshell

297
00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:09.039
front page story claiming that Candy had confessed during a

298
00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:13.720
private polygraph examination just one week after the murder. The

299
00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:17.240
polygraph had been arranged by Candy's lawyer, Don Crowder to

300
00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:20.279
gauge how she might perform under a lie detector test

301
00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:24.679
given by law enforcement. According to the anonymous sources, the

302
00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:29.240
examiner concluded Candy was being deceptive, confronted her, and she

303
00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:34.600
confessed to killing Betty. Candy denied the report, calling it ridiculous,

304
00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:39.200
while her attorneys declined to comment, citing attorney client privilege.

305
00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:44.120
That must have been infuriating to her lawyers. If this

306
00:15:44.279 --> 00:15:47.360
is true and it got leaked, yeah, that's really bad.

307
00:15:47.480 --> 00:15:49.039
It's horrible for her case. Right.

308
00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:54.159
Candy and her attorneys were uncertain how to proceed convinced

309
00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:57.480
the media attention had spiraled out of control, Crowder and

310
00:15:57.559 --> 00:16:01.759
Judishon prepared emotion, asking Judge Tom Ryan to issue a

311
00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:06.120
gag order restricting what attorneys, investigators, and others involved in

312
00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:10.360
the case could say publicly when they appeared before Judge Ryan.

313
00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:14.080
The hearing took an unexpected turn because the grand jury

314
00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:17.279
had formally indicted Candy, the case had now moved into

315
00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:21.399
district court. As part of that process, Candy was required

316
00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:25.720
to surrender under the indictment. She was taken back into custody,

317
00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:29.399
and because this happened on a Friday afternoon, Candy would

318
00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:32.720
spend the weekend in jail in a solitary, padded cell.

319
00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:37.200
Her friends were supportive and started an enthusiastic meal train

320
00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:41.440
to feed Pat and the kids. Because he couldn't visit Candy,

321
00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:45.440
Pat wrote her the following letter, These last few days

322
00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:48.399
have been the most trying times of our lives. I

323
00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:50.519
want you to know that I believe in you, and

324
00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:52.679
I love you, and I'll always be with you no

325
00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:56.279
matter what happens. Don't worry about me, I'll always be

326
00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:59.200
with you, And don't worry about the kids. I can

327
00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:03.000
take care of them. They of course, miss you. Jenny

328
00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:05.440
has really bugged me about when she can have a pony.

329
00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:09.039
Ian wants his own pony. I told her we couldn't

330
00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:12.039
afford a pony now or for a while. I want

331
00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:14.160
you to know that whenever you think of me, I

332
00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:17.319
hope you feel warm all over because I'm thinking of

333
00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:20.359
you and wanting to be close to you. I can

334
00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:23.599
feel your presence too. I'm praying a lot, and I

335
00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:26.920
know my prayers will be answered when you lay down

336
00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:28.759
to sleep at night. I want you to know that

337
00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:31.400
I'm with you and I'm thinking of you. I love

338
00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:32.359
you so much.

339
00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:35.759
I hope if I'm ever in jail awaiting my murder trial,

340
00:17:35.799 --> 00:17:37.359
that you send me such a nice letter.

341
00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:39.519
It is a very nice letter, and I guess I

342
00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:42.119
can only assume from that that pat really believes in

343
00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:46.160
her innocence. At this point, Yes, after almost a week

344
00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:49.039
in jail, Candy's lawyers were finally able to get her

345
00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:53.960
out her Don's request. Sherry smoothed out Candy's perm, giving

346
00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:58.359
her subtle waves which made her slightly less recognizable. Down

347
00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:01.079
also told her to lose twenty pound before the trial

348
00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:04.440
so she would appear frail and incapable of lifting an

349
00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:07.960
axe over her head. He thought of everything, he really did.

350
00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:11.160
Candy and her family headed to Georgia for a vacation

351
00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:15.359
with her parents. During this trip, Pat revealed to Candy

352
00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.400
that Don had told him that she had killed Betty

353
00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:21.559
in self defense. He told her that he was happy

354
00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:22.960
that she was still with him.

355
00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:28.200
This is a shocking development to me. Don told Pat,

356
00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:30.400
don't know if that was his place to do that,

357
00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:32.039
But no, it doesn't seem like I think that he

358
00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:35.240
thought that he needed to know. Yeah, then he was

359
00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:37.880
the one who told Candy, don't tell Pat.

360
00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:39.920
Right, But the fact that Don also added on that

361
00:18:39.960 --> 00:18:42.720
it was in self defense. Candy didn't say that to Don,

362
00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:44.720
did she? So he did. He just kind of add

363
00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:45.640
that in to make it.

364
00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:49.960
We'll get to that, okay. But also, she's left the state.

365
00:18:50.279 --> 00:18:53.880
She's in Georgia, And yeah, that can't be okay, can it.

366
00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:56.880
I mean, it must have been okay because it happened,

367
00:18:57.079 --> 00:19:00.160
but I.

368
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:03.319
Like that would be normal, right. Six weeks after Betty

369
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:06.720
Gore's death, her neighbors began noticing an unknown carr in

370
00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:10.160
the driveway late into the night. The car belonged to

371
00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:17.000
recently divorced Elaine Williams, the organist at First United Methodist Church. Mmmmmm, boy,

372
00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:19.359
that sounds a little scandalous.

373
00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:20.359
Absolutely.

374
00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:25.200
Candy's defense started taking shape after she underwent hypnosis and

375
00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:29.680
uncovered a traumatic childhood event. After suffering an injury when

376
00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:32.799
she was four, her mother took her to the emergency room.

377
00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:37.319
She was bleeding and in pain when her mother shushed her.

378
00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:40.440
Wails of pain, anger that she had never felt before

379
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:44.559
bubbled inside Candy. While she was still under hypnosis, The

380
00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:47.720
psychiatrist told her to go ahead and scream to unleash

381
00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:48.880
the childhood trauma.

382
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:51.400
I don't want to give too much away, but this

383
00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:54.599
one event will become a large part of Candy's defense.

384
00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:57.119
The whole shushing incident interesting.

385
00:19:57.880 --> 00:19:59.240
We'll be back after a break.

386
00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:10.319
Tom Ryan, the judge assigned to Candy's case, was sixty

387
00:20:10.359 --> 00:20:12.839
eight years old and would have preferred to spend his

388
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:17.839
days fishing then overseeing a high profile murder trial. Judge

389
00:20:17.920 --> 00:20:21.880
Ryan and Don Crowder had never gotten along, giving Crowder

390
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:24.599
another reason to seek a change of venue and a

391
00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:27.599
new judge. The first being that people who lived in

392
00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:32.079
Collin County would be incapable of being impartial jurors. The

393
00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:35.559
motion for a new venue was denied, but Judge Ryan

394
00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:39.599
thought that the new Collin County Courthouse in McKinney wouldn't

395
00:20:39.640 --> 00:20:43.680
hold the throngs of people he expected. The old courthouse,

396
00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:46.759
which was a couple of blocks away, had a grand

397
00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:50.039
three story trial room, including a balcony that would hold

398
00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:53.440
at least two hundred and fifty people. He decided that

399
00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:57.200
this is where Candy Montgomery's trials should be held. The

400
00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:00.359
cleaning crew spent a week preparing the old court house

401
00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:04.200
to gleam for the battle ahead. On October twenty third,

402
00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:07.839
nineteen eighty, the jury was selected. They were seated much

403
00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:12.079
faster than anticipated. The jury consisted of nine women and

404
00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:16.440
three men. Among the women were a teacher, three secretaries,

405
00:21:16.519 --> 00:21:20.559
and five housewives. The men included a sales engineer, a

406
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:24.680
quality control supervisor, and the head of corporate security for

407
00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:28.880
Electronic Data Systems better known as EDS.

408
00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:30.960
First job by the college.

409
00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:35.000
Don Crowder had been forthcoming with the jurors. He admitted

410
00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:39.599
straightaway that Candy had killed Betty, but it was self defense,

411
00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:42.200
and he promised that he would prove it to them.

412
00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:45.119
Don talked to the media briefly after the first day

413
00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:49.440
was over. The next morning, before opening statements, Judge Ryan

414
00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:52.759
informed Crowder that he would be fined one hundred dollars

415
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.000
and sentenced to one day in jail for violating the

416
00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:59.599
gag order. Crowder hadn't realized that the gag order was

417
00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:03.000
still in effect. The sentence would be served after the

418
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:06.200
trial concluded. By the end of the trial, he'd rack

419
00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:09.000
up at least seventy two hours of jail time.

420
00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:12.200
How judge really did not like him, He didn't.

421
00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:16.279
The first witness called was Alan Gore. His demeanor was

422
00:22:16.359 --> 00:22:20.559
reportedly stoic, even cold. When the bloody axe was placed

423
00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:23.880
next to him on the witness stand, Alan displayed no emotion.

424
00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:27.559
But I can't believe that they put the isn't that disturbing?

425
00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:28.839
That is really wild Dan.

426
00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:32.000
He admitted that he briefly thought about taking his own

427
00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:34.839
life when he learned of Betty's death. One of the

428
00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:38.000
goals of the defense team was to downplay the emotional

429
00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:42.119
attachment between Candy and Alan. Don Crowder got him to

430
00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:46.119
admit that the affair was mostly lackluster. Fact of the

431
00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:48.839
matter is, mister Gore, neither one of you were very

432
00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:52.200
good at this, were you no? So it started out

433
00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:55.000
as a lukewarm affair and evolved into something that was

434
00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:59.839
merely intellectual. Finally ended up in nothingness, didn't it. Yes,

435
00:23:00.519 --> 00:23:04.440
Allan's testimony helped the defense more than the prosecution. Something

436
00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:08.160
many found odd. Was it because he had lingering affection

437
00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:11.640
for Candy, guilt over the affair, or a genuine belief

438
00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:16.000
that she'd acted in self defense. Other witnesses testified about

439
00:23:16.039 --> 00:23:19.839
Candy's character, while the Gore's neighbors described the horrifying scene

440
00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:23.839
they encountered after Betty's murder. Law enforcement officers walked the

441
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:26.839
jury through the evidence, detailing the chaotic crime scene in

442
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:30.119
the trail of blood that Candy had left behind. By

443
00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:34.279
the afternoon of the fourth day, the prosecution rested. Crowder

444
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:36.640
asked the court to be recessed for the day, but

445
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:40.119
Judge Ryan refused. One problem for the defense was that

446
00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:43.200
Candy had taken a volume, and even without the drug

447
00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:47.200
in her system, Candy's emotions were flat. Her attorney was

448
00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:50.759
concerned how she'd come across to the jury. I wanted

449
00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:53.880
to mention Alan's demeanor while he was testifying, and even

450
00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:58.359
before that, after Betty was murdered, he didn't seem all

451
00:23:58.400 --> 00:23:59.200
that emotional.

452
00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:00.599
Yeah, he's strange.

453
00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:04.720
Yeah, and he was. He wasn't defending Candy, but he

454
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:07.400
just didn't seem as angry as you would expect him

455
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:07.519
to do.

456
00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:10.480
Yeah. Well, especially after it came out that they were

457
00:24:10.519 --> 00:24:12.640
saying that she did it but it was self defense,

458
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:15.799
I would think he would be furious, like he now

459
00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:18.880
should have no doubt that she did it, even if

460
00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:21.759
he had doubts before. But yeah, I get it. He's,

461
00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:25.559
you know, a logical, rational engineering type guy. But still,

462
00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:29.000
this is your wife, and you also probably feel guilty

463
00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:30.319
as well.

464
00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:32.720
Because and then he's got the church organist, you know,

465
00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:34.960
giving up cast roles at night.

466
00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:35.440
Too, right?

467
00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:38.440
Do you think you could be seduced by cast roles?

468
00:24:38.920 --> 00:24:40.519
I mean I do love a good cast role.

469
00:24:42.519 --> 00:24:45.279
Once on the witness stand, Candy talked about arriving at

470
00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:48.960
the Gore's house just after ten am. Betty wasn't expecting

471
00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:51.279
her until later, but she welcomed her in and gave

472
00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:54.200
her a cup of coffee. When Betty mentioned their new

473
00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:57.920
Cocker Spaniel, Poppy Cheetoh, Candy wanted to play with him

474
00:24:58.039 --> 00:25:01.000
and Princess, their older dog. They sat down in the

475
00:25:01.039 --> 00:25:03.599
living room and Candy told Betty about her new venture

476
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:06.839
with Sherry and handed her a business card. When Candy

477
00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:10.039
said she needed to get going and asked for Elisa's swimsuit,

478
00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:13.640
Betty then asked, point blank, are you having an affair

479
00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:17.920
with Allen? No, of course not, but you did, didn't you?

480
00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:20.680
Yes, but that was a long time ago.

481
00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:24.440
Betty abruptly got up and walked to the garage and

482
00:25:24.519 --> 00:25:27.680
then came back with the axe. I don't want you

483
00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:30.319
to ever see him again. You can't have.

484
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:33.680
Him, Betty, it's been over for a long time. I'm

485
00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:37.640
not seeing him. I don't want him under the circumstances.

486
00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:39.920
I think I'll just bring a Lisa home and drop

487
00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:41.680
her off right after Bible School.

488
00:25:42.319 --> 00:25:44.880
No, I don't want to see you anymore. Just keep

489
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:47.759
Alisa and take her to the movies because I don't

490
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:50.160
want to look at you again. Bring her home tomorrow.

491
00:25:50.799 --> 00:25:53.559
Betty put the axe down. I'll get a towel from

492
00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:56.000
the bathroom. You get a Lisa's suit off the washer.

493
00:25:56.559 --> 00:25:59.240
Betty returned with a towel and the peppermint candy that

494
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:02.759
they rewarded Alisa with when she put her head underwater.

495
00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:06.559
Candy put the items in her purse. She noticed Betty

496
00:26:06.599 --> 00:26:08.880
looking as if she was about to cry and went

497
00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:12.759
to comfort her, touching her arm. Betty pushed her hard

498
00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:16.480
and Candy stumbled back into the laundry room. Then Betty

499
00:26:16.519 --> 00:26:20.160
grabbed the axe. You can't have him. You can't have him.

500
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:22.839
I'm going to have another baby and you can't have

501
00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:23.759
him this time.

502
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:27.519
Betty, don't this is stupid. I don't want alan.

503
00:26:28.200 --> 00:26:30.680
Candy tried to pull the axe from Betty's grasp.

504
00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:33.440
Betty, don't do this, please stop.

505
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:36.680
I've got to kill you. Remember this is Candy on

506
00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:39.319
the witness stand, and this is her account of how

507
00:26:39.400 --> 00:26:40.000
things happen.

508
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:40.359
Right.

509
00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:42.960
The axe played nicked Candy in the head in the

510
00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:46.400
fight for control. Then Betty raised the axe over her

511
00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:49.839
head and swung it towards Candy, hitting the linoleum floor

512
00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:53.759
and Cutty, cutting Candy's middle toe. Candy wrestled the axe

513
00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:56.400
away from Betty. She fell to the ground while Candy

514
00:26:56.440 --> 00:26:58.680
delivered the first blow to the back of her head.

515
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:02.960
Blood splurted from the wound, covering Candy. She turned her

516
00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:05.279
run out of the house, but Betty was following her,

517
00:27:05.319 --> 00:27:08.440
now in possession of the axe. They wrestled for control

518
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:11.319
of the axe again, and Candy screamed, I don't want him,

519
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:15.319
I don't want Allen. Betty remembered baby Bethany was asleep

520
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:19.279
and shushed Candy loudly. The sound tripped Candy back to

521
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:23.279
the painful childhood memory lodged deeply in her psyche. Fueled

522
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:25.960
by the inner rage, she pushed Betty to the ground

523
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:29.960
and started swinging the axe wildly, making solid contact with

524
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:34.279
Betty's head and body. When Betty stopped moving, Candy snapped

525
00:27:34.359 --> 00:27:38.160
back to reality. Realizing what she'd done. She felt sick.

526
00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:40.880
She ran to the bathroom and stepped into the shower,

527
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:44.400
fully clothed and washed the blotting gore from herself. But

528
00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:47.039
then she walked calmly out of the Gore's house, leaving

529
00:27:47.079 --> 00:27:49.519
behind the baby and the two dogs, as if she

530
00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:52.759
just had a nice visit with Betty. Once she reached

531
00:27:52.759 --> 00:27:57.000
the country roads, she drove haphazardly, trying to formulate a plan.

532
00:27:57.799 --> 00:28:00.640
She went home and quickly washed out her burger blouse

533
00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:03.519
and threw it in the dryer. She took another shower,

534
00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:06.279
carefully washing her hair. Then she put on a fresh

535
00:28:06.279 --> 00:28:09.759
pair of jeans and the washed, damped burgundy blouse. She

536
00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:12.920
bandaged her toe and traded her flip flops for sneakers

537
00:28:13.160 --> 00:28:15.759
and headed back to the church, devising her story as

538
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:18.640
she drove. She and Betty had had a nice visit

539
00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:21.519
and played with the dogs. They got talking and lost

540
00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:23.880
track of the time. She went to Target to get

541
00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:26.640
Father's Day cards, but when she got there, she realized

542
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:29.200
that her watch had stopped, and she headed straight back

543
00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:32.559
to the church. Don pointed to the axe in the courtroom.

544
00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:37.000
Is this the axe that you used to kill Betty Gore? Yes,

545
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:41.200
Candy answered, through her tears. The defense argued that Betty's

546
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:44.720
shushing triggered the traumatic memory Candy had suppressed for twenty

547
00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:48.799
five years, causing her to enter into a dissociative state.

548
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:53.640
According to the defense, Candy became psychologically detached from reality

549
00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:57.079
and reacted not to Betty herself, but to the unresolved

550
00:28:57.079 --> 00:29:01.279
trauma she was reliving, and that altered meant state. They argued,

551
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:04.440
she lashed out without conscious awareness or intent.

552
00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:09.720
Did her defense team have any psychiatrists testify to support that.

553
00:29:09.640 --> 00:29:13.319
Theory, yet they did. The person who hypnotized her testified okay.

554
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:17.920
Another compelling moment came during cross examination when the prosecutor

555
00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:20.240
asked if the affair with Alan had been the only

556
00:29:20.279 --> 00:29:24.079
affair that she'd ever had, the first but not the last,

557
00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:28.359
she admitted sheepishly. When pressured to reveal the man's identity,

558
00:29:28.599 --> 00:29:31.759
Candy refused. She wouldn't say the name, but she spelled it.

559
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:35.640
Pat wasn't in the courtroom. Candy had never revealed the

560
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:36.759
second affair to him.

561
00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:38.480
I was going to ask you about that. Wow.

562
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:41.279
When court was over for the day, she rushed to

563
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:44.359
Pat to tell him before the media could. At first

564
00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:49.279
he was incredulous, Then he sobbed openly, truly heartbroken. As

565
00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:51.640
the trial was nearing its final stage, the judge de

566
00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:54.680
cited that Candy needed to be examined by a psychiatrist

567
00:29:54.759 --> 00:29:58.000
to ensure that she was competent to stand trial. She

568
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:01.880
passed the test with flying colors. Not afraid to speak

569
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:05.559
ill of the victim, Don Crowder paraded several witnesses into

570
00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:09.839
the courtroom to assassinate Betty Gorey's character, portraying her as

571
00:30:09.880 --> 00:30:14.000
an unhinged, hysterical woman. It was like she was on trial,

572
00:30:14.200 --> 00:30:18.400
not Candy. Former coworkers described her as short tempered, moody,

573
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:22.240
and difficult to work with. Even Pastor Ron Adams testified

574
00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:26.519
that Betty could be stubborn and demanding. Crowder also emphasized

575
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:30.599
Betty's physical size, reminding the jury that she was significantly

576
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:34.279
larger than Candy Montgomery. This part really made me mad

577
00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:37.279
because he was pretty brutal. And remember that he knew Betty,

578
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:38.440
he went to church with them.

579
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:41.160
Mm hmm, yeah, I get that. But when you've decided

580
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:43.720
that your defense is going to be that she attacked

581
00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:46.279
Candy first and it had to be self defense, I

582
00:30:46.279 --> 00:30:48.519
guess really he had no other choice than to try

583
00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:51.799
to paint her as a awful person.

584
00:30:51.720 --> 00:30:54.319
Right, And he kept talking about how large Betty was.

585
00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:58.200
Betty was an average sized woman. Candy was probably slightly smaller,

586
00:30:58.240 --> 00:31:02.160
but yeah, that wasn't very much really. After eight days

587
00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:05.480
it was time for closing arguments. Crowder said to the jury,

588
00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:08.640
you have an opportunity here to allow a family to

589
00:31:08.680 --> 00:31:12.599
stay together. Don't rob two children of their mother. Don't

590
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:15.640
rob a husband of his wife. Again, I know he's

591
00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:19.359
doing his job as a defense attorney, but I mean,

592
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:20.839
that's exactly what Candy did.

593
00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:23.960
I it was a little bit ironic. It took the

594
00:31:24.039 --> 00:31:27.039
jury just a few hours to reach a verdict not

595
00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:32.279
guilty on all counts, Candy Montgomery was acquitted after the

596
00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:35.319
first hour of deliberations. The jury took an initial vote

597
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:38.920
on the murder charge. Nine voted not guilty while three

598
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:43.039
voted guilty. Quickly, they reached a unanimous decision that the

599
00:31:43.079 --> 00:31:46.799
prosecution had failed to prove the murder charge. The more

600
00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:51.519
difficult question was the voluntary manslaughter charge. The first vote

601
00:31:51.559 --> 00:31:54.640
was evenly split, with six jurors voting guilty and six

602
00:31:54.759 --> 00:31:58.920
voting not guilty. Two hours later, however, all twelve agreed

603
00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:01.519
that the state had failed to prove its case beyond

604
00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:05.119
a reasonable doubt, and they returned a verdict of not guilty.

605
00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:08.400
When Candy, pat and her attorneys walked out of the

606
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:11.200
courthouse after the judge ended the trial, they were met

607
00:32:11.279 --> 00:32:14.599
by an angry crowd. The verdict shocked much of the

608
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:19.640
public Outside the courthouse, some spectators shouted murderer. As Candy

609
00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:23.720
left under heavy security. Someone had threatened both her life

610
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:28.119
and don crowders. Many questioned how someone who admitted killing

611
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:31.160
another person with forty one blows from an axe could

612
00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:34.799
be acquitted. Others felt Betty Gore had been forgotten in

613
00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:35.839
the courtroom drama.

614
00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:39.519
The scene outside the courthouse is kind of crazy. It

615
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:42.440
almost looks like a Karen Reied type scene. Yeah, which

616
00:32:42.519 --> 00:32:46.200
people with signs and they're yelling and they're pretty angry.

617
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:50.440
Sounds like it. The jurors, however, felt differently. They weren't

618
00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:53.720
asked whether Candy had killed Betty that was never in dispute.

619
00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:57.240
They were asked whether the prosecution had proved beyond a

620
00:32:57.240 --> 00:33:00.920
reasonable doubt that Candy had not acted in self defense.

621
00:33:01.720 --> 00:33:05.160
After the verdict, one juror explained, we didn't care if

622
00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:07.680
it was one gunshot or one hundred blows. It was

623
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:11.759
still self defense. After eight days of testimony and several

624
00:33:11.799 --> 00:33:15.640
hours of deliberation, all twelve jurors concluded the state had

625
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:19.000
failed to meet that burden. The verdict remains one of

626
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:22.880
the most controversial in modern Texas history and continues to

627
00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:27.359
divide opinion more than four decades later, Candy and Pat

628
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:30.880
went home to celebrate with friends, popping bottles of champagne,

629
00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:34.799
but Candy was in for a rude awakening. She may

630
00:33:34.839 --> 00:33:37.079
have been acquitted by a jury of her peers, but

631
00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:41.279
the court of public opinion had already convicted her. Many

632
00:33:41.319 --> 00:33:44.480
people were disgusted by the verdict and by Candy herself.

633
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:48.359
Whatever life she had built in Lucas was over. She

634
00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:51.720
would never be the queen Bee she once was. I

635
00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:54.559
can imagine being a friend of hers, I would have

636
00:33:54.599 --> 00:33:56.319
a hard time continuing that friendship.

637
00:33:58.119 --> 00:34:01.359
Yeah, I think even Sherrie did her very best friends.

638
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:06.279
In an exercise from their Marriage and counter Workshop, Betty

639
00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:09.639
once wrote to Allan, There's only one thing that bothers me.

640
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:12.639
I'm so afraid that something will happen and I won't

641
00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:15.239
get to see the kids grow up and be around

642
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:17.679
to grow old. I guess with a new baby, it

643
00:34:17.719 --> 00:34:20.119
suddenly occurs to me that something could happen and I

644
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:23.239
won't see her grow up. Now that we're really getting

645
00:34:23.239 --> 00:34:26.480
things together too, I'm just very afraid that something will

646
00:34:26.519 --> 00:34:29.599
happen and it will all be taken away. Am I

647
00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:32.280
feeling silly? I hope they are just part of my

648
00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:35.519
being depressed, which I don't really feel too much. But

649
00:34:35.599 --> 00:34:39.320
there's definitely something there. I'm sure I have no reason

650
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:43.159
to feel this way. Sadly, Betty's fears were realized. She

651
00:34:43.239 --> 00:34:45.960
never got to see her daughters grow up. Betty was

652
00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:48.920
a complicated woman who sometimes struggled with her mental and

653
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:51.639
physical health, but she had a big heart and loved

654
00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:55.519
her family deeply. Over the years, she has often become

655
00:34:55.559 --> 00:34:58.960
a supporting character in her own story a footnote in

656
00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:02.360
the Tale of Candy Mindgomery. But before she was a victim,

657
00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:04.960
Betty was a daughter, a wife, a mother, and a friend.

658
00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:08.000
She deserved the chance to watch her girls grow up,

659
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:12.199
to grow old, and to live an extraordinary, ordinary life

660
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:15.760
that she had hoped for. Rest in peace, Betty, We'll

661
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:25.480
be back after a break. My main source for this

662
00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:28.480
case is a book called Evidence of Love, A true

663
00:35:28.519 --> 00:35:31.840
Story of Passion and Death in the Suburbs by Jim

664
00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:35.760
Atkinson and John Bloom. Before writing the book, the authors

665
00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:38.559
published a two part feature Love and Death in the

666
00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:43.079
Silicon Prairie in Texas Monthly in nineteen eighty four, and

667
00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:46.440
both are excellent pieces of writing. They interviewed more than

668
00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:50.320
one hundred people connected to the case, including Candy and

669
00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:56.119
Pat Montgomery and Alan Gore. Candy reportedly later regretted cooperating

670
00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:56.559
with them.

671
00:35:56.679 --> 00:35:59.280
I am a little surprised that Candy, Pat and Alan

672
00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:01.239
would all agree to talk about this. I would think

673
00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:04.079
all of them would just want to.

674
00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:07.000
Move on, and they have since. Yeah, it's shocking. The

675
00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:09.239
book was great. It was a page turner, one of

676
00:36:09.239 --> 00:36:13.519
those true crime novels that reads almost as fiction. But

677
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:16.079
that said, I do have criticism. The authors tend to

678
00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:19.719
portray Candy as fun loving and charismatic, while casting Betty

679
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:23.360
in a far less sympathetic light, often dismissing her physical

680
00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:26.960
and mental health issues. In the final chapter, they speculate

681
00:36:27.039 --> 00:36:29.360
about what might have been going through Betty's mind on

682
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:34.000
June thirteenth, nineteen eighty, even suggesting that pre menstrual syndrome

683
00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:39.119
PMS and hormone modal changes contributed to her behavior. To me,

684
00:36:39.320 --> 00:36:43.000
that is an unnecessary leap. There is zero credible scientific

685
00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:48.599
evidence linking PMS to homicidal behavior. All hormones can intensify emotions,

686
00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:51.760
they don't create them out of thin air. This speculation

687
00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:54.840
reflects a bygone era when it was easier to blame

688
00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:58.760
a woman's hormones than to actually understand her lived experience.

689
00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:01.440
It's one of the few parts of an otherwise outstanding

690
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:04.159
book that hasn't aged well, and I doubt the authors

691
00:37:04.199 --> 00:37:06.039
would reach the same conclusion today.

692
00:37:06.760 --> 00:37:10.239
Well, even talking about Betty's behavior at all on that day,

693
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:12.639
They don't know what her behavior was. They don't know

694
00:37:12.719 --> 00:37:16.920
that she attacked Candy. That's that's Candy's version of the story, right,

695
00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:17.639
And the.

696
00:37:17.639 --> 00:37:20.880
Authors went on for a while about Betty's frame of

697
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:24.159
mind that day because Allen had just left town, and

698
00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:26.719
you know, she didn't like when he traveled. She thought

699
00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:29.559
that she was pregnant. Again, she wasn't, but she thought

700
00:37:29.559 --> 00:37:32.119
she was, and they were supposed to go on this trip,

701
00:37:32.159 --> 00:37:34.239
and she was so looking forward to the trip. And

702
00:37:34.840 --> 00:37:37.039
so they went on and on about, well, these these

703
00:37:37.079 --> 00:37:40.760
are the factors that made Betty homicidal that day. And

704
00:37:41.719 --> 00:37:44.079
I don't think I buy it. Yeah, So, in the

705
00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:47.480
years since the book was written, Jim Atkinson admits that

706
00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:50.800
while he once believed Candy's version of events, now he

707
00:37:50.840 --> 00:37:54.519
has doubts. Quote, I am still of mixed feelings about

708
00:37:54.519 --> 00:37:56.599
this case. I have trouble with the idea that it

709
00:37:56.760 --> 00:38:00.079
was self defense. I think this story will well, well,

710
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:03.519
it's almost Shakespearean. It will go on and on. It's

711
00:38:03.559 --> 00:38:07.239
an amazing story. It's rich, and it's resonant, and it

712
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:10.360
has lessons to it that I think are eternal in

713
00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:14.440
some way. Allan later married Betty and Candy's friend and

714
00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:19.000
former first United Methodist organist Elaine Williams and moved away

715
00:38:19.000 --> 00:38:24.400
from Texas. Betty's parents raised her and Alan's daughters. I'm

716
00:38:24.400 --> 00:38:27.800
not sure when Alan married Elaine, but it was I

717
00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:31.280
think right after the trial, and the trial is in

718
00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:36.400
October of nineteen eighty. Betty died in June of nineteen eighty. God,

719
00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:40.679
I'm not exactly sure why Betty's family raised the girls.

720
00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:44.519
I think that they were pretty angry at Allan. I

721
00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:46.280
don't really know. I wish I knew more about that.

722
00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:49.320
I thought there was a custody hearing or what.

723
00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:52.639
Whle thing makes me look down on Allan even more,

724
00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:55.199
I guess than I did. I didn't. I mean, I

725
00:38:55.360 --> 00:38:58.159
was down on Alan because of him having the affair

726
00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:00.800
with Candy, but I was kind of like, well, it's

727
00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:03.599
not he didn't kill Betty or anything like that. But yeah,

728
00:39:03.679 --> 00:39:05.159
this leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

729
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:09.440
Definitely a big ick. The second marriage ended in divorce,

730
00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:12.679
and he, I think is married and lives in Maine.

731
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:16.480
Don Crowder ran for a governor of Texas in nineteen

732
00:39:16.519 --> 00:39:19.559
eighty six but lost. He later worked as a city

733
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:23.000
attorney and opened a sports bar, but in nineteen ninety

734
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:25.320
eight he took his own life at age fifty six.

735
00:39:25.960 --> 00:39:29.360
Reportedly after his brother's death, he struggled with substance abuse.

736
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:33.599
He was deeply ashamed when he got a DUI. Weeks

737
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:36.840
before his death, he told the fort Worth Star Telegram

738
00:39:37.239 --> 00:39:40.840
that case was maybe the zenith of an extraordinary successful

739
00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:44.400
career or the demise of what could have been. He

740
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:48.760
said Betty Gore's face still haunted him. He regretted defending

741
00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:53.400
Candy Montgomery Wow. Candy and Pat relocated to Georgia shortly

742
00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:55.599
after the trial, where she went by the name of

743
00:39:55.679 --> 00:40:00.599
Candice Wheeler. They reportedly divorced a few years later. Became

744
00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:05.400
a licensed family therapist. Twenty twelve, her license expired, so

745
00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:08.559
I think she practiced that whole time. She declined to

746
00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:12.760
participate in the show's Candy or Love and Death, But

747
00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:16.159
I think Jessica Biale reached out to her and she

748
00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:17.960
was like, no, no, I'm good.

749
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:20.159
Thanks. Old is Candy now?

750
00:40:20.599 --> 00:40:23.519
So I think I failed to say how old Betty

751
00:40:24.280 --> 00:40:27.679
and Candy both were. They were both thirty on June thirteenth,

752
00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:30.960
nineteen eighty, so I think she's seventy five. And I

753
00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:34.519
think the main characters other than Betty are still alive.

754
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:38.719
Despite their rough start in life, Betty's daughters both graduated

755
00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:43.079
as salutatorians of their respective classes. They're both married with

756
00:40:43.159 --> 00:40:46.079
families of their own. One works as a chief accounting

757
00:40:46.119 --> 00:40:49.519
officer and the other as an assistant principal. Betty would

758
00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:52.239
be very proud of them. Bethany named one of her

759
00:40:52.280 --> 00:40:55.800
daughters Betty. They were estranged from their father for most

760
00:40:55.840 --> 00:40:58.920
of their childhood. I wanted to talk briefly about the

761
00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:03.960
show's Candy and Love and Death. I had never watched

762
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:05.760
Love and Death. I think you and I maybe watched

763
00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:06.480
one episode.

764
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:07.039
I think we did.

765
00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:09.920
Candy came out first. We watched Candy and we really

766
00:41:10.039 --> 00:41:10.360
liked it.

767
00:41:10.679 --> 00:41:12.679
Love and Death came out very soon after.

768
00:41:12.679 --> 00:41:14.480
Right, you can't remember how, but it was pretty soon.

769
00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:16.880
Do we really need to watch this again?

770
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:19.119
Yeah, we watched one episode and we're like, I don't know,

771
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:23.599
but I watched rewatch them both, and I think they're

772
00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:27.800
both really good. I think that Love and Death it

773
00:41:27.920 --> 00:41:33.800
was very Hollywood, like Elizabeth Olson plays Candy and she's

774
00:41:33.880 --> 00:41:39.639
just a beautiful young woman. And Jessica Bial played Candy

775
00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:43.239
in the show Candy, and I felt like her portrayal

776
00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:46.920
of Candy was more spot on from everything that I've read,

777
00:41:47.239 --> 00:41:50.599
Like Elizabeth Olsen, she did such a good and she

778
00:41:50.599 --> 00:41:52.960
she's a great actress, but I just felt like she

779
00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:56.199
didn't get like the nugget of the character as well

780
00:41:56.199 --> 00:41:58.320
as Jessica bial did. But that's just my opinion.

781
00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:01.480
Do you feel like both shows were pretty accurate or

782
00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:02.360
was one more?

783
00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:04.840
Both based on the same book that I read, which is,

784
00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:09.639
you know, the source on the case a couple of things,

785
00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:14.039
like in Candy, Betty was actually pregnant, but they were

786
00:42:14.079 --> 00:42:16.599
both pretty spot on. I thought, not spot on, but

787
00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:18.320
I thought they both did a really good job telling

788
00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:21.800
the story. One thing that bothered me was Jackie Ponder

789
00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:25.840
was a black woman, and in Love and Death a

790
00:42:25.880 --> 00:42:28.559
white woman played her, which kind of was one of

791
00:42:28.599 --> 00:42:31.519
the choice those cool things like she was, you know,

792
00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:34.719
in nineteen eighty and Texas and she was, you know,

793
00:42:34.760 --> 00:42:38.239
this powerful black woman yea was leading this church, And

794
00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:40.599
so I don't know why they would have changed that

795
00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:41.119
cast out.

796
00:42:41.239 --> 00:42:42.719
That seems like a very odd choice.

797
00:42:43.239 --> 00:42:45.079
One thing that we haven't talked about much, but we're

798
00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:46.280
going to get to it when we get to our

799
00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:51.239
discussion is a pair of sunglasses that were Candy sunglasses

800
00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:55.800
that were broken and they were kicked under the freezer.

801
00:42:55.880 --> 00:42:59.679
I think in the garage there was one lens found,

802
00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:03.960
but a police officer, remember the Wiley Police Department, They

803
00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:09.760
weren't seasoned in investigating murders. So this officer picked up

804
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:12.440
the lens that was found in the garage and was like,

805
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:15.880
look what I found. So then it became inadmissible.

806
00:43:16.119 --> 00:43:16.559
Okay.

807
00:43:16.880 --> 00:43:19.960
But in Love and Death the trial scene, the sunglasses

808
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:23.599
were presented as evidence and they argued about them, and

809
00:43:24.079 --> 00:43:26.639
that wasn't based in reality. A lot of the trial

810
00:43:26.840 --> 00:43:27.599
was real.

811
00:43:27.880 --> 00:43:30.480
Well, what would that have indicated if they could have

812
00:43:30.840 --> 00:43:33.119
allowed that in the trial, Like that one of the

813
00:43:33.159 --> 00:43:35.480
sunglass lenses was found in the garage, what does that

814
00:43:35.639 --> 00:43:35.960
tell you?

815
00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:38.199
Candy had said that she had never been in the

816
00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:41.880
garage before, okay, so and so it made you wonder,

817
00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:45.199
like where did the axe come from here? To believe

818
00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:48.840
candy story, Betty really got the axe and she placed

819
00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:51.360
it awkwardly in the room kind of is you know,

820
00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:56.599
a threat? And so the sunglasses being in the garage

821
00:43:56.639 --> 00:43:59.079
meant that the garage door was open and somehow they

822
00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:00.760
got kicked out there. There was a little bit of

823
00:44:00.760 --> 00:44:02.199
blood found in the garage as well.

824
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:04.599
Interesting I mentioned I.

825
00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:08.599
Think in the second episode that I also watched on YouTube,

826
00:44:08.679 --> 00:44:11.880
small Town Murder. It was like in the nineteen eighties,

827
00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:15.960
and Barbara Hershey played Candy. Oh wow, and that was

828
00:44:16.039 --> 00:44:19.360
good too. I don't know which one was my favorite.

829
00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:24.199
Love and Death was very Hollywood. David E. Kelly was

830
00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:27.360
the producer and director, and I think he had a

831
00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:32.280
very big budget, and everyone was probably better looking than

832
00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:34.440
they were, Like I think Betty and Candy were both

833
00:44:34.440 --> 00:44:38.840
attractive women, but they weren't, you know, gorgeous Hollywood looking women,

834
00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:42.519
except for poor Jesse Plemons, who played Alan, who I

835
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:44.599
just I love him so much. She's such a good

836
00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:47.360
actor and he played Alan really well. But in real

837
00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:50.719
life Allen was, you know, not as pudgy and kind

838
00:44:50.760 --> 00:44:51.320
of awkwardly.

839
00:44:51.559 --> 00:44:54.480
Yeah. Well, I really the only one I watched was Candy,

840
00:44:54.599 --> 00:44:56.920
but I love that. I thought it was really well done.

841
00:44:57.119 --> 00:44:59.960
And there's something about like when a show is made

842
00:45:00.199 --> 00:45:03.719
about that time period, like the late seventies or nineteen eighty,

843
00:45:04.280 --> 00:45:06.039
it just has like a look to it and a

844
00:45:06.199 --> 00:45:09.119
feel to it. And I just thought it was super

845
00:45:09.159 --> 00:45:11.880
well done. And I think was it Melanie Lynsky, Yeah,

846
00:45:12.039 --> 00:45:13.000
that played Beatty.

847
00:45:13.079 --> 00:45:14.559
I thought she was I love herself.

848
00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:17.239
She's a really great actress and she was really good.

849
00:45:17.239 --> 00:45:20.039
And I thought Jessica bille did a really outstanding job

850
00:45:20.159 --> 00:45:21.079
as Candy as well.

851
00:45:21.280 --> 00:45:23.880
Well. The acting in Love and Death was also excellent.

852
00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:26.440
So if you haven't watched both of those shows, I

853
00:45:26.840 --> 00:45:29.039
highly recommend both of them. Let us know what you

854
00:45:29.079 --> 00:45:31.639
think if you've watched them, if you prefer one versus

855
00:45:31.719 --> 00:45:35.639
the other. But Candy was just a little grittier, and

856
00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:39.159
I mean, Jessica Biale, she really did do a great job. Right,

857
00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:41.000
are you ready to discuss a little further?

858
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:42.519
Yeah, all right, to.

859
00:45:42.519 --> 00:45:45.320
You and to our listeners. Do you believe Candy's version

860
00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:47.840
of events that she acted in self defense?

861
00:45:48.599 --> 00:45:50.719
You know, I've been thinking about that ever since we

862
00:45:50.840 --> 00:45:54.199
talked about it, and I'm a little bit torn, to

863
00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:57.280
be honest with you, because if it wasn't self defense,

864
00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:02.400
I don't see the motive for Candy just going over

865
00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:05.159
and killing Betty because from everything we know, at least

866
00:46:05.199 --> 00:46:07.639
it may not be one hundred percent true, but the

867
00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:10.840
affair was over or had been over for quite a while.

868
00:46:11.519 --> 00:46:13.840
Of course, was that though I'm saying that's.

869
00:46:13.800 --> 00:46:16.360
I think it likely was because it does seem like

870
00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:20.840
the marriage account encounter for Allen and Betty was like

871
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:24.880
a period, like it's over, moving on with her lives.

872
00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:29.199
But if it wasn't self defense, why did Candy do

873
00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:31.400
it then? So I am struggling a little bit with that,

874
00:46:31.559 --> 00:46:32.639
Like Candy just goes.

875
00:46:32.519 --> 00:46:35.000
Over, Betty picked the ax up first.

876
00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:38.880
I really don't know. I can what I can imagine

877
00:46:38.920 --> 00:46:42.519
is that maybe Betty did confront Candy, maybe she did

878
00:46:42.920 --> 00:46:46.320
ask her about the affair. I can't imagine her going

879
00:46:46.360 --> 00:46:49.079
and getting the axe. It just seems very odds character.

880
00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:51.320
I don't know how the acts got in the room. Yeah,

881
00:46:51.400 --> 00:46:53.039
I'm really curious about that.

882
00:46:53.239 --> 00:46:56.360
I can believe more that Candy would have just snapped,

883
00:46:56.400 --> 00:46:58.840
like maybe they gotten an argument and that Candy just

884
00:46:59.559 --> 00:47:02.000
you know, lost it and grabbed went and grabbed the

885
00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:02.719
axe or whatever.

886
00:47:03.239 --> 00:47:06.760
And remember Betty suffered kind of from chronic pain, and

887
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:09.199
would she have been able to pick that ax up

888
00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:14.519
and start start hitting the axe? So we had an

889
00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:18.159
axe at one point you were ask and I asked

890
00:47:18.159 --> 00:47:20.239
you the other day do we have an axe? And

891
00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:22.840
you were like, why do you want to know? Because

892
00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:25.800
I just wanted to like pick up an accent because

893
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:28.320
I know, it's not an easy thing to do, let

894
00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:31.519
alone forty times, I know, And how do you think

895
00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:32.360
that would be really?

896
00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:34.920
Oh God, that that would be really hard to do.

897
00:47:34.960 --> 00:47:39.320
It would be physically exhausting, but just mentally too doing that.

898
00:47:39.400 --> 00:47:42.840
I can't even imagine. And it was in a laundry room, right,

899
00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:45.119
which is I don't know how big the laundry room was,

900
00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:48.639
but yeah, it seems like that would be really difficult,

901
00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:51.039
you know, for a full sized axe to be swinging

902
00:47:51.079 --> 00:47:53.800
that around in a laundry room. But yeah, I can't

903
00:47:53.840 --> 00:47:56.559
imagine striking someone that many times.

904
00:47:56.920 --> 00:47:59.800
How did a jury manage to find compassion for Candy's

905
00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:03.760
proven childhood trauma but show zero empathy for the victim

906
00:48:04.199 --> 00:48:06.079
sitting at the center of this tragedy.

907
00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:07.599
I mean, the only thing I can think is that

908
00:48:07.719 --> 00:48:10.360
Candy was there, and she took the stand and talked,

909
00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:12.679
and you know, I guess she is maybe a charming

910
00:48:13.159 --> 00:48:16.360
person and a believable person. You know, Betty wasn't there

911
00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:19.079
to tell her story, so you know, I can sort

912
00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:21.360
of see them being swayed by that. But yeah, the

913
00:48:21.400 --> 00:48:24.679
whole childhood trauma thing really that bothered me. That bothers

914
00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:28.400
me too, Like just you got shushed once when you

915
00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:30.079
were angry, when you were young.

916
00:48:31.239 --> 00:48:34.760
I mean, with that defense theory, we have all been

917
00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:38.199
through stuff like horrible things, and that seemed like a

918
00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:39.760
fairly minor incident.

919
00:48:40.119 --> 00:48:43.000
Yeah, that really blows my mind that they bought that.

920
00:48:43.559 --> 00:48:46.000
Are you surprised how quickly this went to trial?

921
00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:49.199
Yeah, that is super quick. I know times have changed

922
00:48:49.239 --> 00:48:51.360
a little bit, so maybe it was just a you know,

923
00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:54.840
different time and things tended to move a little bit faster.

924
00:48:54.960 --> 00:48:56.119
But yeah, that is super fast.

925
00:48:56.199 --> 00:48:58.800
I have a few things in my notes here to

926
00:48:58.920 --> 00:49:02.360
illustrate why that happened, and the central facts weren't disputed.

927
00:49:02.840 --> 00:49:06.559
Candy admitted killing Betty, so the trial focused on whether

928
00:49:06.679 --> 00:49:09.440
it was self defense rather than who committed the crime.

929
00:49:10.199 --> 00:49:13.079
Cases were less complex than nineteen eighty. There was no

930
00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:18.360
DNA testing, digital evidence, or lengthy forensic analysis. Courts in

931
00:49:18.440 --> 00:49:22.280
nineteen eighty emphasized speedy trials and favored moving criminal cases

932
00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:25.559
through the system faster than today. I feel like that.

933
00:49:26.199 --> 00:49:29.280
I guess it doesn't benefit the defendant, but I wish

934
00:49:29.360 --> 00:49:31.519
the trials moved along faster than they did today.

935
00:49:31.639 --> 00:49:35.199
Yeah. Sometimes it's just crazy how many times these things

936
00:49:35.199 --> 00:49:35.960
get delayed.

937
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:39.039
Do you think that Betty knew about the affair, Like,

938
00:49:39.079 --> 00:49:43.320
if you believe Candy's account that Betty confronted her, do

939
00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:44.840
you think that happened that way?

940
00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:47.280
I mean, like I said before, that's the only thing

941
00:49:47.320 --> 00:49:49.360
I can think of that makes sense. I can't I

942
00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:54.000
can't imagine Candy just killing Betty unprovoked or without any

943
00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:55.480
sort of So.

944
00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:59.239
Do you think that Betty could have said, Candy, I

945
00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:01.760
know that you had an affair with my husband. I'm

946
00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:06.760
going to tell Jackie Ponder and Pastor Adams and everyone else,

947
00:50:07.519 --> 00:50:09.440
and that would probably be.

948
00:50:09.519 --> 00:50:12.360
Enough that seems somewhat plausible to me that could have

949
00:50:12.559 --> 00:50:14.119
caused Candy to snap?

950
00:50:14.679 --> 00:50:16.880
Do you think that Alan loved Betty? One of the

951
00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:20.159
things that bothered me the most, that made me the saddest,

952
00:50:20.280 --> 00:50:23.000
was when Alan was at Betty's funeral and he was

953
00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:25.760
looking at her casket and he started crying, and he

954
00:50:25.840 --> 00:50:28.639
was crying because he didn't know if he ever he said,

955
00:50:28.679 --> 00:50:30.800
he didn't know if he ever loved Betty. That may

956
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:31.599
be really sad.

957
00:50:31.719 --> 00:50:35.119
Yeah, that is really sad, And I would have said, yes,

958
00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:40.039
I think he loved her until after everything that happened afterwards,

959
00:50:40.039 --> 00:50:42.719
like moving on so fast Okay, maybe you know, he

960
00:50:42.880 --> 00:50:45.679
was a guy that couldn't didn't feel like he could

961
00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:48.320
take care of himself, and so felt like he needed

962
00:50:48.320 --> 00:50:51.440
to move on quickly. But then I don't know, just

963
00:50:51.760 --> 00:50:54.400
like giving up his kids, which again we don't know

964
00:50:54.440 --> 00:50:56.960
if that was voluntarily or not, but it sounds like

965
00:50:57.320 --> 00:50:58.960
I think he didn't really was. I mean, it sounds

966
00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:00.760
like he didn't have a relationship with them, so you

967
00:51:00.840 --> 00:51:02.639
must have kind of given up on.

968
00:51:02.719 --> 00:51:03.920
Yeah, because they were pretty young.

969
00:51:04.159 --> 00:51:07.880
Yeah, so that really bothers me. Yeah, So I don't know.

970
00:51:07.960 --> 00:51:10.920
I mean, it doesn't seem like he didn't do right

971
00:51:10.960 --> 00:51:11.920
by Betty for sure.

972
00:51:12.719 --> 00:51:16.880
If the roles were reversed and Betty killed Candy, do

973
00:51:16.920 --> 00:51:18.679
you think that she would have gotten off.

974
00:51:19.159 --> 00:51:21.599
Well, that is an interesting question because I could see

975
00:51:21.639 --> 00:51:25.039
in that case, her defense could be that, you know,

976
00:51:25.119 --> 00:51:28.079
she just found out about this affair and this was

977
00:51:28.159 --> 00:51:32.000
shocking to her and she snapped. And I think in

978
00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:33.880
a lot of cases that is sort of a valid

979
00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:37.519
defense that you were you were provoked, but.

980
00:51:37.400 --> 00:51:40.159
It was a better defense than the defense.

981
00:51:40.239 --> 00:51:42.320
It's definitely a better defense. But I don't know if

982
00:51:42.360 --> 00:51:44.199
the jury would have like.

983
00:51:44.159 --> 00:51:47.599
With her personality and all those you know, her history,

984
00:51:47.719 --> 00:51:51.559
her medical history and whatnot. Yeah, I kind of think

985
00:51:51.559 --> 00:51:54.400
that Betty would not have gotten off as easily as Candy.

986
00:51:54.559 --> 00:51:55.760
Yeah, I think you might be right.

987
00:51:56.880 --> 00:51:59.079
Neither of these women had a history of violence, so

988
00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:01.320
it's hard to believe that either of them would have

989
00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:05.480
grabbed the axe first. Why didn't Betty? If Betty was

990
00:52:05.519 --> 00:52:07.960
the one who grabbed the axe, why didn't she just

991
00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:11.199
grab a kitchen knife or a different implement in the house.

992
00:52:11.199 --> 00:52:13.760
To me, it seems so strange that she would have

993
00:52:13.800 --> 00:52:16.119
walked all the way to the garage, Yeah, to get

994
00:52:16.119 --> 00:52:16.800
an axe.

995
00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:18.159
Yeah, it is very strange.

996
00:52:18.159 --> 00:52:19.760
I guess it doesn't seem likely that an axe would

997
00:52:19.800 --> 00:52:22.000
have just been, you know, sitting there in the living room.

998
00:52:22.119 --> 00:52:22.360
Yeah.

999
00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:25.079
I guess Cay have known. I'm sorry, Would Candy have

1000
00:52:25.159 --> 00:52:27.760
known that an axe was in the garage?

1001
00:52:28.159 --> 00:52:31.719
Yeah? Who knows. I guess an axe is a more

1002
00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:36.719
dramatic sort of gesture, like if you want to scare someone,

1003
00:52:36.920 --> 00:52:39.000
dragging a big axe into the house is probably a

1004
00:52:39.039 --> 00:52:42.960
little more you know, impactful than grabbing a knife. But

1005
00:52:43.679 --> 00:52:46.719
either way, Yeah, it's it's kind of baffling how the

1006
00:52:46.760 --> 00:52:48.599
axe ended up as part of this whole thing.

1007
00:52:49.519 --> 00:52:52.000
One aspect of the case that is driving me crazy

1008
00:52:52.039 --> 00:52:54.840
that I haven't really heard anyone else talk about is

1009
00:52:54.880 --> 00:52:58.039
that Candy had this really busy day. She is at

1010
00:52:58.119 --> 00:53:01.519
vacation Bible school, and then she needs to, you know,

1011
00:53:01.559 --> 00:53:04.519
go get father's stay cards, and you know, she has

1012
00:53:04.519 --> 00:53:07.000
all these errands and she's a little stressed out. Why

1013
00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:10.039
would she take the time to go pick up Elisa's

1014
00:53:10.119 --> 00:53:14.480
swimsuit when their kids are the same size. Interesting, and

1015
00:53:14.719 --> 00:53:18.239
it's ten o'clock in the morning and she's going to

1016
00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:21.239
have to come back later to that side of town,

1017
00:53:21.400 --> 00:53:24.519
yea for the swim lesson. Why wouldn't she just get

1018
00:53:24.519 --> 00:53:27.480
the swimsuit when she came back around later.

1019
00:53:27.679 --> 00:53:30.679
Oh that's really interesting. Yeah, I never would have thought

1020
00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:32.800
of that. But it does make you wonder did she

1021
00:53:33.199 --> 00:53:35.679
go there with the intention of like having a fight

1022
00:53:35.800 --> 00:53:37.159
or a conversation.

1023
00:53:36.719 --> 00:53:39.519
Called Betty before? She wasn't Like, she didn't ask for

1024
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:43.440
permission about the Empire strikes back. She just said, oh,

1025
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:45.599
I'm sure it'll be okay with your mom. I'll Why

1026
00:53:45.679 --> 00:53:48.760
wouldn't she have called Betty in the morning and said,

1027
00:53:49.000 --> 00:53:51.000
I you know, how do you feel about this plan?

1028
00:53:51.199 --> 00:53:51.679
Yeah?

1029
00:53:51.719 --> 00:53:56.239
And really I thought of this a lot too. You know,

1030
00:53:56.280 --> 00:54:00.519
your kids are six and seven around there, a two

1031
00:54:00.599 --> 00:54:03.519
night sleepover is a big deal because they're going to

1032
00:54:03.519 --> 00:54:05.960
be a mess by the time they get home, right, So,

1033
00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:08.800
and Betty, like, if we're to believe everything we've heard

1034
00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:11.039
about her, she's a little strict, and I'm not sure

1035
00:54:11.039 --> 00:54:14.199
if she would have been okay with Matt. Yeah, So

1036
00:54:14.360 --> 00:54:16.400
it just was surprising to me when I thought about

1037
00:54:16.440 --> 00:54:18.239
it that I'm, yeah.

1038
00:54:18.079 --> 00:54:20.360
That's actually really interesting that you bring that up. It

1039
00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:23.679
does make you wonder if Candy went over there for

1040
00:54:23.960 --> 00:54:25.920
a reason other than this one suit.

1041
00:54:26.320 --> 00:54:30.000
Unless it's gross to people to borrow someone else's swimsuit,

1042
00:54:30.119 --> 00:54:32.159
maybe it is, I don't know. At our old house

1043
00:54:32.519 --> 00:54:35.440
we had a pool and we always had extra swimsuits

1044
00:54:35.440 --> 00:54:37.079
in case someone forgot there's or whatever.

1045
00:54:37.159 --> 00:54:41.039
And and if anything, in nineteen eighty, I think it

1046
00:54:41.039 --> 00:54:44.000
would be less gross than maybe today people would be

1047
00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:46.400
a little more uptight about that. I think in nineteen

1048
00:54:46.440 --> 00:54:47.840
eighty that was I don't.

1049
00:54:47.679 --> 00:54:50.960
Know, yeah, bath once a week in nineteen eighty exactly.

1050
00:54:51.960 --> 00:54:54.400
Do you remember when Candy and Betty were sitting there

1051
00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:57.559
talking and Betty asked Candy point blank, are you having

1052
00:54:57.639 --> 00:54:58.639
an affair with Alan?

1053
00:54:58.920 --> 00:55:00.199
According to Candy.

1054
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:02.840
Acording to Candy, and then Candy said, you know, under

1055
00:55:02.840 --> 00:55:05.480
the circumstances, I don't think Alisa should go to the

1056
00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:09.239
movie with us. I'll bring her back after vacation Bible school.

1057
00:55:09.800 --> 00:55:12.880
And Betty said, well, I don't want to see you anymore.

1058
00:55:12.920 --> 00:55:15.199
You can just bring her back tomorrow. That didn't make

1059
00:55:15.199 --> 00:55:15.679
sense to know.

1060
00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:17.559
There, That totally doesn't make sense right here.

1061
00:55:17.599 --> 00:55:20.719
You'd be like, you adulterer, you did that with my

1062
00:55:21.159 --> 00:55:23.800
kid right now, right or I'll go pick up my kid.

1063
00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:26.159
You know, I don't want you to touch my kid or

1064
00:55:26.199 --> 00:55:29.000
see my kid anymore. So write that part of the

1065
00:55:29.000 --> 00:55:32.719
story doesn't end up either, yeah, exactly. Candy's defense argued

1066
00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:35.800
that she entered into a profound associative state and that

1067
00:55:35.840 --> 00:55:39.079
she wasn't consciously aware of what she was doing during

1068
00:55:39.079 --> 00:55:42.760
the attack, despite that she had a frame by frame

1069
00:55:42.840 --> 00:55:45.840
memory of what happened when she entered the Gore home,

1070
00:55:46.559 --> 00:55:50.440
and she had the mind to take a shower. But

1071
00:55:50.480 --> 00:55:52.599
then she forgot the baby. Because some people are like, oh,

1072
00:55:52.679 --> 00:55:54.760
she was just in this state of mind. She forgot

1073
00:55:54.760 --> 00:55:55.719
that the baby was there.

1074
00:55:56.280 --> 00:55:59.280
But she thought Allan was coming home. She didn't know

1075
00:55:59.320 --> 00:56:00.920
he was on a business trip. Right.

1076
00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:04.440
Well, even with that, it's eleven o'clock in the morning

1077
00:56:04.519 --> 00:56:07.719
at the latest, and Alan wouldn't get home until.

1078
00:56:07.519 --> 00:56:11.199
Four, right. You're right, though, that doesn't make a lot

1079
00:56:11.199 --> 00:56:14.079
of sense. Like, Oh, my defense is that I snapped

1080
00:56:14.079 --> 00:56:16.760
because I had this childhood memory and it came back

1081
00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:18.800
to me and I just lost it and I hit

1082
00:56:18.880 --> 00:56:22.079
this woman forty times with an axe. But yeah, I

1083
00:56:22.159 --> 00:56:24.880
remember everything about it. That doesn't add up.

1084
00:56:25.239 --> 00:56:28.159
One thing I think in her defense is that she

1085
00:56:28.199 --> 00:56:31.440
didn't clean up the crime scene at all, like you know,

1086
00:56:31.480 --> 00:56:32.519
the rug and.

1087
00:56:32.760 --> 00:56:35.599
Walls, fingerprint on the refrigerator.

1088
00:56:35.679 --> 00:56:38.360
Yeah, I mean, unless she thought that she could have

1089
00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:39.760
gotten away with it.

1090
00:56:40.480 --> 00:56:43.320
Regardless of whether she was triggered by a childhood trauma

1091
00:56:43.599 --> 00:56:46.440
or not, she was obviously in some sort of a manic,

1092
00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:50.360
frenzied state, so it's not too surprising that she would

1093
00:56:50.400 --> 00:56:53.840
walk out without trying to clean up the crime scene.

1094
00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:56.199
If you were on the jury, do you think that

1095
00:56:56.400 --> 00:56:58.039
you would have voted for acquittal.

1096
00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:00.559
I mean, I didn't sit through the trial, but I

1097
00:57:00.639 --> 00:57:02.599
have a hard time believing I would have voted for

1098
00:57:02.599 --> 00:57:05.840
acquittal in this case. It just it's just not adding

1099
00:57:05.920 --> 00:57:06.280
up to me.

1100
00:57:06.960 --> 00:57:08.840
What do you think of the sunglasses evidence. We kind

1101
00:57:08.840 --> 00:57:10.679
of talked about that a little bit, like the sunglasses

1102
00:57:10.679 --> 00:57:13.840
that were found in the garage. Like the garage, you're

1103
00:57:13.920 --> 00:57:15.800
envisioning the house like it's like our house, right, Like

1104
00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:18.599
it opens up into a mud room, right or the

1105
00:57:18.679 --> 00:57:19.280
laundry room.

1106
00:57:19.599 --> 00:57:22.519
The laundry room was right near the garage. Yeah, so

1107
00:57:22.559 --> 00:57:25.280
it does. I mean, I guess the sunglass evidence would

1108
00:57:25.320 --> 00:57:28.400
say that Candy must have been in the garage, or

1109
00:57:28.880 --> 00:57:30.280
likely that she had been in the garage.

1110
00:57:30.679 --> 00:57:33.840
I believe she said that she tried to escape, but

1111
00:57:33.920 --> 00:57:36.519
she was heading towards the front door, not the garage.

1112
00:57:37.079 --> 00:57:40.719
So yeah, you do wonder how the garage door got open. Yeah,

1113
00:57:40.760 --> 00:57:44.280
and by Candy's story, like the first hit on the

1114
00:57:44.280 --> 00:57:46.320
back of her head with an axe, I think that

1115
00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:49.639
that would have been incapacitated. I would think so, But

1116
00:57:49.760 --> 00:57:51.880
she was saying, oh, she was still going after me.

1117
00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:54.880
But you think it would slower down and know where

1118
00:57:54.920 --> 00:57:57.199
she would have been able to run out the front door?

1119
00:57:57.360 --> 00:57:58.840
Right? Yeah, I would think so too.

1120
00:58:00.239 --> 00:58:02.800
Crime we're committed today, what do you think would happen?

1121
00:58:04.320 --> 00:58:07.400
You know, I don't really know if that it would

1122
00:58:07.400 --> 00:58:10.320
be that different because there's no there's no evidence there.

1123
00:58:10.360 --> 00:58:13.679
That wouldn't be that would be different today, right, There

1124
00:58:13.719 --> 00:58:16.320
wasn't like DNA, I mean, the DNA didn't matter.

1125
00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:19.519
Well, one thing I'm curious about is the axe. Were

1126
00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:21.679
Betty's singer prints on the axe?

1127
00:58:22.599 --> 00:58:25.039
So they didn't test for fingerprints on the axe or

1128
00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:25.679
we don't know.

1129
00:58:25.840 --> 00:58:29.360
I don't know. The blood spatter evidence, though, might be

1130
00:58:29.400 --> 00:58:32.719
able to reveal a little bit more to like may

1131
00:58:32.880 --> 00:58:33.800
sequence of events.

1132
00:58:33.880 --> 00:58:37.000
Yeah, my blood spatter evidence is a little bit questionable

1133
00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:39.880
even today, I think of you know how much you

1134
00:58:39.880 --> 00:58:41.039
can really read into.

1135
00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:44.880
That And a little more in Kandy's defense is the

1136
00:58:44.920 --> 00:58:48.559
wounds on her body, Like her legs were very bruised.

1137
00:58:48.639 --> 00:58:51.519
But if you're swinging an axe wildly, I think you

1138
00:58:51.559 --> 00:58:54.840
could possibly hit yourself and accidentally hit your toe right.

1139
00:58:54.920 --> 00:58:57.000
Well, the toe was the main thing right where she

1140
00:58:57.039 --> 00:58:58.039
had cut her toe.

1141
00:58:58.320 --> 00:58:59.960
On her forehead there was a cut.

1142
00:59:00.039 --> 00:59:00.960
There was a cut on her.

1143
00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:04.960
Forehead, yeah, and then her toe, her middle toe, and

1144
00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:06.239
then the bruising on her legs.

1145
00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:09.440
I mean, in a small, confined space, when you're swinging

1146
00:59:09.559 --> 00:59:12.159
an axe forty times and you've got somebody who is

1147
00:59:12.199 --> 00:59:16.480
presumably fighting for their life and fighting back, you're gonna

1148
00:59:16.559 --> 00:59:18.320
end up with some injuries on your body.

1149
00:59:18.480 --> 00:59:22.039
Yeah, I think so too. And who else gave forty whacts?

1150
00:59:22.480 --> 00:59:23.199
Lizzie Borden?

1151
00:59:23.480 --> 00:59:24.119
Isn't that weird?

1152
00:59:24.280 --> 00:59:25.760
That is weird. I was thinking that as well.

1153
00:59:25.800 --> 00:59:28.519
But she didn't really swing the axe forty times. I

1154
00:59:28.559 --> 00:59:31.320
think it was twelve. Yeah, it's the song, but it

1155
00:59:31.400 --> 00:59:33.719
is kind of a little crazy. So your take what

1156
00:59:33.800 --> 00:59:35.760
is your takeaway? We're gonna end the discussion now, but

1157
00:59:35.800 --> 00:59:36.639
what is your takeaway?

1158
00:59:36.760 --> 00:59:40.480
I think Candy should have gone to prison for manslaughter

1159
00:59:40.679 --> 00:59:44.000
probably probably maybe not first degree murder, but I think

1160
00:59:44.079 --> 00:59:46.920
she should have been found guilty of manslaughter from everything

1161
00:59:46.960 --> 00:59:48.079
that I've heard.

1162
00:59:48.639 --> 00:59:51.400
Who do you believe touched the axe first? Because I

1163
00:59:51.400 --> 00:59:52.280
think that's important.

1164
00:59:52.960 --> 00:59:55.679
That is a great question. I don't know who touched

1165
00:59:55.719 --> 00:59:58.760
the ax first. I just I still can't wrap my

1166
00:59:58.800 --> 01:00:02.719
head around either Andy just going there and saying I'm

1167
01:00:02.719 --> 01:00:03.719
going to grab an axe and murder.

1168
01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:06.400
Canny have known an axe was there unless she entered

1169
01:00:06.400 --> 01:00:07.559
the house through the garage.

1170
01:00:07.840 --> 01:00:11.360
But I also can't wrap my head around Betty attacking

1171
01:00:11.519 --> 01:00:14.039
canvas with an axe or threatening or with an axe either.

1172
01:00:14.119 --> 01:00:16.880
I've never once thought I'm going to grab an axe

1173
01:00:16.920 --> 01:00:19.119
and hurt someone with it, right, Yeah, I don't know.

1174
01:00:19.239 --> 01:00:21.320
Let us know what you guys think. I hope you

1175
01:00:21.400 --> 01:00:31.280
enjoyed this three part episode. What do you think of hypnosis?

1176
01:00:31.920 --> 01:00:35.800
I am fascinated by hypnosis, but I'm also a skeptic of.

1177
01:00:35.840 --> 01:00:37.519
Hypnosis, so skeptical.

1178
01:00:37.880 --> 01:00:40.719
I would love to have someone try to hypnotize it.

1179
01:00:40.719 --> 01:00:41.719
We'll look into my eyes.

1180
01:00:41.880 --> 01:00:44.719
Okay, you are not a trained hypnotist, so.

1181
01:00:45.159 --> 01:00:47.440
You can get trained at a weekend.

1182
01:00:47.199 --> 01:00:49.320
Can you? Yeah, Well, then why don't you do it?

1183
01:00:49.360 --> 01:00:51.760
I'd like to never really thought about doing it until

1184
01:00:51.760 --> 01:00:53.360
I just found out that you can do it fairly

1185
01:00:53.440 --> 01:00:56.840
quickly this week. Most people who do it, though, are

1186
01:00:57.199 --> 01:01:00.880
psychologists and psychiatrists, people like that, all though my major

1187
01:01:01.119 --> 01:01:02.239
was psychology.

1188
01:01:02.360 --> 01:01:05.360
Well you are perfectly, you think, so set to do that.

1189
01:01:05.440 --> 01:01:09.239
Yeah, what would you want me to train you to

1190
01:01:09.280 --> 01:01:09.920
do or whatever?

1191
01:01:10.800 --> 01:01:12.920
I well, I just think it would be fascinating to

1192
01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:16.039
know if there were like childhood memories. I don't know

1193
01:01:16.039 --> 01:01:18.599
if I want to know if I have like buried

1194
01:01:18.679 --> 01:01:22.000
childhood memories, but it'd be it'd be interesting to know,

1195
01:01:22.039 --> 01:01:24.039
because always I always think about that. I do. I

1196
01:01:24.079 --> 01:01:28.519
do believe that people have childhood memories that they've repressed

1197
01:01:28.679 --> 01:01:31.480
or that they you know, have locked away but.

1198
01:01:32.760 --> 01:01:34.480
You know you don't talk about it, but you went

1199
01:01:34.519 --> 01:01:37.119
through some really hard things in your childhood. Yeah, and

1200
01:01:37.599 --> 01:01:40.719
I'm if there are such a thing as repressed memories,

1201
01:01:40.920 --> 01:01:45.800
which that's a controversial topic too, you know, I don't

1202
01:01:46.000 --> 01:01:47.599
I mean the one I can recover them or not.

1203
01:01:47.719 --> 01:01:50.320
I mean, not to go too deep into my childhood trauma.

1204
01:01:50.400 --> 01:01:53.039
But my dad died when I like right after I

1205
01:01:53.079 --> 01:01:56.000
turned eight years old, and I have very few memories

1206
01:01:56.039 --> 01:01:58.639
of my dad, which I think most people have memories

1207
01:01:58.639 --> 01:02:01.840
from before their age, and I really don't have many,

1208
01:02:01.960 --> 01:02:02.840
Like I have a couple of them.

1209
01:02:03.039 --> 01:02:06.280
That must hurt you a little bit, remember exactly.

1210
01:02:06.320 --> 01:02:07.599
That's what I was going to say, is like it

1211
01:02:07.639 --> 01:02:10.880
would be nice to be able to, you know, pull

1212
01:02:10.960 --> 01:02:12.039
up some of those memories.

1213
01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:15.119
Do you look at old pictures and then you can

1214
01:02:15.199 --> 01:02:15.960
remember things?

1215
01:02:16.079 --> 01:02:17.880
No, I mean I look at old pictures for sure,

1216
01:02:17.960 --> 01:02:21.199
but it doesn't bring back memories for.

1217
01:02:21.199 --> 01:02:22.559
A little ritchie. That breaks my heart.

1218
01:02:22.639 --> 01:02:24.159
It is kind of funny, Well, just to go on

1219
01:02:24.280 --> 01:02:27.000
a little bit longer about this, So it is funny

1220
01:02:27.039 --> 01:02:29.280
like that there are two memories that I have of

1221
01:02:29.320 --> 01:02:32.440
my dad that are very distinctive, and they both involve

1222
01:02:32.679 --> 01:02:35.880
falling out of trees, which is really weird. I do

1223
01:02:35.960 --> 01:02:38.679
remember one time we went to an apple orchard. It

1224
01:02:38.719 --> 01:02:40.519
was to pick your own apple orchard, and we were

1225
01:02:40.519 --> 01:02:44.000
picking apples and I wanted to climb the tree, and

1226
01:02:44.079 --> 01:02:47.639
I remember my dad told me no. He was worried

1227
01:02:47.679 --> 01:02:49.519
I was going to fall or something, and so he's like, no,

1228
01:02:49.599 --> 01:02:51.840
I don't. You don't climb the tree. You'll fall and

1229
01:02:51.880 --> 01:02:54.199
break your leg or something. And I remember I got

1230
01:02:54.280 --> 01:02:56.760
very upset about that and I had a fit. That's

1231
01:02:56.800 --> 01:02:59.679
all I remember about that particular memory. I didn't try

1232
01:02:59.719 --> 01:03:03.280
to no. No. But then another memory I have is

1233
01:03:03.280 --> 01:03:06.039
our neighbor climbing a tree. A boy he was like

1234
01:03:06.079 --> 01:03:09.119
my age, and he fell from the tree, and I

1235
01:03:09.159 --> 01:03:12.719
remember my dad running out to help him, like I.

1236
01:03:12.760 --> 01:03:15.280
Was your dad was gonna be like see, I told

1237
01:03:15.320 --> 01:03:15.920
you no.

1238
01:03:16.280 --> 01:03:18.559
I was with our neighbor and I ran to get

1239
01:03:18.559 --> 01:03:21.480
my dad, and I remember him running out to help

1240
01:03:21.599 --> 01:03:25.159
this young this boy, and I remember trying to run

1241
01:03:25.239 --> 01:03:27.159
like my dad because I felt like the way he

1242
01:03:27.199 --> 01:03:30.599
was kind of running I was trying to get it

1243
01:03:30.639 --> 01:03:32.360
was just like he was sort of like trotting. It

1244
01:03:32.400 --> 01:03:35.199
was sort of like relaxed but urgent at the same time.

1245
01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:38.039
But it is weird that those are the two main

1246
01:03:38.079 --> 01:03:38.760
memories I have.

1247
01:03:39.039 --> 01:03:42.760
Interesting, Well, your dad was a mail carrier. Yeah, I

1248
01:03:42.840 --> 01:03:46.000
just think of male carriers as being helpful, good people,

1249
01:03:46.760 --> 01:03:49.639
like the Sesame Street song. These are the people in

1250
01:03:49.679 --> 01:03:52.519
your neighborhood, and you know male carriers are I mean,

1251
01:03:52.599 --> 01:03:55.960
especially when you know you grew up. It was he

1252
01:03:56.039 --> 01:03:56.960
had a walking room.

1253
01:03:57.079 --> 01:04:00.559
No, he had a rural route, so he drove truck,

1254
01:04:00.599 --> 01:04:02.679
but it was out in the country. And I do

1255
01:04:02.760 --> 01:04:05.239
remember going with him maybe once, and he had like

1256
01:04:05.280 --> 01:04:08.519
a he drove his own car. It wasn't a mail truck,

1257
01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:12.280
which meant yeah, yeah, that the steering wheel was on

1258
01:04:12.519 --> 01:04:14.559
you know, the side that your car is on, which

1259
01:04:14.599 --> 01:04:17.360
meant that you had to have like this extender device

1260
01:04:17.440 --> 01:04:20.599
to open the mailboxes and put the mail in. But

1261
01:04:20.639 --> 01:04:22.840
by all accounts, my dad was Yeah, he was a

1262
01:04:22.880 --> 01:04:25.239
great guy. Everyone really seemed to like him.

1263
01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:28.159
I mean, I also have like a really bad memory,

1264
01:04:28.239 --> 01:04:31.239
and there is a little bit of trauma in my too,

1265
01:04:31.800 --> 01:04:35.079
So I do think that that is, you know, just

1266
01:04:35.119 --> 01:04:37.800
a sign of a lot of times PTSD and things

1267
01:04:37.840 --> 01:04:39.840
like that that we don't remember things on purpose.

1268
01:04:40.800 --> 01:04:41.119
I don't know.

1269
01:04:41.119 --> 01:04:42.840
I don't even actually do. I was gonna say, I

1270
01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:44.719
don't even remember I had for dinner last night, But

1271
01:04:44.719 --> 01:04:48.360
I do remember because we went and got ice cream.

1272
01:04:49.079 --> 01:04:52.079
We did because we are adults and we have free will.

1273
01:04:52.239 --> 01:04:55.360
That's right. But how how early is your earliest memory that.

1274
01:04:55.480 --> 01:04:57.360
I remember things from when I was like four? You

1275
01:04:57.440 --> 01:04:58.079
really I do?

1276
01:04:58.239 --> 01:05:00.239
Yeah, I guess I do have a few memories of

1277
01:05:00.280 --> 01:05:03.760
playing with like my friend, yeah Danny, Like we would

1278
01:05:03.800 --> 01:05:07.280
go out, we would wander off into like this field,

1279
01:05:07.679 --> 01:05:10.000
which is crazy. We were four four years old or

1280
01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:12.320
five years old. But yeah, I guess I do have

1281
01:05:12.360 --> 01:05:13.719
a few memories from that age.

1282
01:05:13.960 --> 01:05:16.440
I remember kindergarten. Do you remember kindergarten?

1283
01:05:16.559 --> 01:05:21.719
I remember getting yelled at once in kindergarten, because.

1284
01:05:21.440 --> 01:05:24.280
You were probably yelled at like twice your whole school.

1285
01:05:24.519 --> 01:05:26.639
I was yelled at because they called our reading group

1286
01:05:26.679 --> 01:05:30.639
over and I didn't hear the teacher. And the teacher said, rich,

1287
01:05:30.719 --> 01:05:32.840
are you a member of the crickets reading group or not?

1288
01:05:33.000 --> 01:05:35.079
And I didn't know. I was like, I don't know, I'm.

1289
01:05:37.519 --> 01:05:39.519
Was that this was that the fast.

1290
01:05:39.199 --> 01:05:42.519
Group or no I was in the fast Apparently I

1291
01:05:42.599 --> 01:05:44.760
was also in the inattentive group.

1292
01:05:47.679 --> 01:05:51.039
I this is this is kind of a sad memory.

1293
01:05:51.039 --> 01:05:54.800
But when I talking about reading groups, I went to

1294
01:05:54.880 --> 01:05:57.360
kindergarten and then we moved and we moved from like

1295
01:05:57.679 --> 01:06:00.000
the Chicago suburbs to more the rural area.

1296
01:06:00.039 --> 01:06:01.079
Yeuh huh.

1297
01:06:01.119 --> 01:06:04.960
And we didn't learn how to read in kindergarten. So

1298
01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:07.599
in first grade, I think the school that I moved to,

1299
01:06:07.840 --> 01:06:09.880
like you learned how to read, and I didn't know

1300
01:06:09.880 --> 01:06:13.119
how to read. Behind I was I was behind, which

1301
01:06:13.440 --> 01:06:15.320
I mean I was. I mean I was a pretty

1302
01:06:15.320 --> 01:06:18.039
smart kid, but I guess I never I don't know

1303
01:06:18.039 --> 01:06:20.000
know that we have a lot of books growing up

1304
01:06:20.119 --> 01:06:23.199
you but I do now I have a lot of

1305
01:06:23.280 --> 01:06:25.320
I learned how to read more, but it was kind

1306
01:06:25.320 --> 01:06:28.360
of a tragic thing because I was pretending to read.

1307
01:06:28.440 --> 01:06:30.400
And I think my teacher was really sweet and she

1308
01:06:30.480 --> 01:06:34.400
was like she would I remember the other kids would

1309
01:06:34.400 --> 01:06:36.400
go out to recess and she worked with me, and

1310
01:06:36.480 --> 01:06:39.320
I think I did. It was very sweet. But my

1311
01:06:39.400 --> 01:06:41.320
memory is that I caught on really quick, and by

1312
01:06:41.320 --> 01:06:45.280
the end of the year I was in the smart

1313
01:06:46.079 --> 01:06:48.119
I think we were more like red, yellow, and blue

1314
01:06:48.239 --> 01:06:52.400
or something like that. So what were the other insects.

1315
01:06:52.719 --> 01:06:54.679
I didn't even know the name of my own reading group,

1316
01:06:54.760 --> 01:06:59.239
much less the names of the other reading maybe the

1317
01:06:59.320 --> 01:07:01.159
lady Vigues, you know, I don't know.

1318
01:07:02.920 --> 01:07:05.119
I heard today that Brian Kohlberger.

1319
01:07:05.639 --> 01:07:06.119
I saw that.

1320
01:07:06.199 --> 01:07:08.159
You saw that. I was like, oh my gosh, this

1321
01:07:08.239 --> 01:07:09.519
guy will just not go away.

1322
01:07:09.679 --> 01:07:12.559
He is changing his plea. He wants to change his

1323
01:07:12.559 --> 01:07:14.039
plea from guilty to not guilty.

1324
01:07:14.199 --> 01:07:16.199
Yeah, which is ridiculous.

1325
01:07:16.440 --> 01:07:18.559
I just think they're I mean, I don't know much evidence.

1326
01:07:18.599 --> 01:07:20.760
I haven't followed the case that closely, but yeah, that's

1327
01:07:20.760 --> 01:07:23.840
my understanding is that everyone knows he did it.

1328
01:07:24.039 --> 01:07:27.039
Cases like this bothered me so much because there's just

1329
01:07:27.079 --> 01:07:30.159
so much traum and so many people hurt, you know,

1330
01:07:30.320 --> 01:07:32.519
even if you're not a family member, but the you know,

1331
01:07:32.559 --> 01:07:33.519
the college kids.

1332
01:07:33.559 --> 01:07:37.440
It's just what it was, just so got it so awful.

1333
01:07:37.320 --> 01:07:41.639
So awful. Another case in the news is Mitch McConnell.

1334
01:07:42.119 --> 01:07:44.719
What do you think is going on with Mitch McConnell.

1335
01:07:45.840 --> 01:07:47.960
Well, I did see did you see that the new picture?

1336
01:07:48.159 --> 01:07:50.159
There's a new picture of and it's basically the same

1337
01:07:50.199 --> 01:07:52.280
as the old picture. He's just got a different shirt on.

1338
01:07:52.519 --> 01:07:54.239
He hasn't looked so good in ten years.

1339
01:07:54.320 --> 01:07:56.199
I know something something.

1340
01:07:55.920 --> 01:07:57.559
Is something doesn't smell so good.

1341
01:07:57.719 --> 01:08:00.920
Yeah, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it doesn't feel

1342
01:08:01.199 --> 01:08:01.639
right to me.

1343
01:08:02.239 --> 01:08:05.960
Like if he's you know, doing okay, and he's really

1344
01:08:05.960 --> 01:08:10.920
in a facility, a rehab facility, then have audio.

1345
01:08:11.239 --> 01:08:15.000
Yeah, just do a short video or something. Yeah, it's

1346
01:08:15.039 --> 01:08:15.800
something's not right.

1347
01:08:16.399 --> 01:08:18.880
You might have whiplash from the way this conversation is

1348
01:08:18.880 --> 01:08:20.600
going on. I feel like you kind of got a

1349
01:08:20.640 --> 01:08:22.600
little vulnerable and deep there. I think we both.

1350
01:08:22.640 --> 01:08:25.439
I feel like I just had some therapy, so that

1351
01:08:25.520 --> 01:08:25.920
was great.

1352
01:08:26.600 --> 01:08:29.920
Really, the podcast does make us talk sometimes about things

1353
01:08:29.960 --> 01:08:33.760
that we don't talk about in real time, so it's

1354
01:08:33.800 --> 01:08:34.119
good to.

1355
01:08:34.079 --> 01:08:36.439
Talk about those things even without being hypnotized.

1356
01:08:36.560 --> 01:08:39.079
Well, going back to hypnotism, that's what I meant to

1357
01:08:39.119 --> 01:08:42.640
start asking you, is what could I what else could

1358
01:08:42.680 --> 01:08:45.800
I do for you? Like, once I go through my training,

1359
01:08:46.359 --> 01:08:48.880
can I hypnotize you to just eat one oreo at

1360
01:08:48.880 --> 01:08:50.439
a time? Do you think that's possible?

1361
01:08:50.640 --> 01:08:52.600
Probably be a good thing to do. I mean, I

1362
01:08:52.640 --> 01:08:54.840
don't know if it's possible or not. It might be

1363
01:08:55.000 --> 01:08:57.239
you know, a lot to task, But if you're really

1364
01:08:57.279 --> 01:08:59.640
good at hypnosis, then yeah, I think that would be great.

1365
01:09:00.079 --> 01:09:02.760
You were growing up, did your parents smoke? Uh?

1366
01:09:02.840 --> 01:09:03.239
Yeah?

1367
01:09:03.279 --> 01:09:05.840
Did they go through ever go to a hypnotist to

1368
01:09:05.880 --> 01:09:06.520
stop smoking?

1369
01:09:06.920 --> 01:09:09.760
No? My mom stopped after my dad passed away, and

1370
01:09:09.800 --> 01:09:11.840
it was the hardest thing that she ever did. I

1371
01:09:11.880 --> 01:09:15.520
remember she was like, this is so hard. Even years

1372
01:09:15.560 --> 01:09:18.399
after she quit, she was like, I still crave a cigarette.

1373
01:09:18.640 --> 01:09:19.079
Wow.

1374
01:09:19.239 --> 01:09:19.640
Yeah.

1375
01:09:19.720 --> 01:09:22.399
A lot of people go to hypnotists for that, and

1376
01:09:22.680 --> 01:09:24.720
some people say it worked. I think my mom did

1377
01:09:24.720 --> 01:09:28.000
that really yeah, but I don't think it wor didn't take.

1378
01:09:28.159 --> 01:09:28.199
No.

1379
01:09:29.960 --> 01:09:32.760
Well, once again, you've wasted a perfectly good hour listening

1380
01:09:32.840 --> 01:09:33.760
to Love Mary Kill.

1381
01:09:34.399 --> 01:09:36.199
Well, if you like the work that we are doing

1382
01:09:36.279 --> 01:09:38.000
and you want us to stick around for a while,

1383
01:09:38.840 --> 01:09:40.880
the best way to support us is to join us

1384
01:09:40.880 --> 01:09:44.319
on Patreon. Go to patreon dot com slash love Mary

1385
01:09:44.359 --> 01:09:46.720
Kill For five dollars a month. You could early add

1386
01:09:46.720 --> 01:09:50.239
free bonus episode and I said.

1387
01:09:50.119 --> 01:09:52.359
That wrong, regular episodes too.

1388
01:09:52.399 --> 01:09:53.239
You get it by now.

1389
01:09:53.439 --> 01:09:55.279
You do get a monthly bonus episode, and we have

1390
01:09:55.479 --> 01:09:56.840
I think you mentioned it the other day, but we

1391
01:09:56.880 --> 01:09:59.520
have probably forty thirty years.

1392
01:09:59.520 --> 01:10:01.800
I don't think there' quite forty. Maybe this month. Yeah,

1393
01:10:01.840 --> 01:10:03.840
we have a lot, and some of them not some

1394
01:10:03.920 --> 01:10:07.760
of them there they're full length episodes and their regular research.

1395
01:10:07.800 --> 01:10:10.199
I think they're Yeah, we put just as much into

1396
01:10:10.239 --> 01:10:10.840
those as we do.

1397
01:10:10.920 --> 01:10:11.640
Yeah, we really do.

1398
01:10:12.720 --> 01:10:15.159
Find us on social media. Send us an email at

1399
01:10:15.159 --> 01:10:18.399
Lovemarykill at gmail dot com, or leave us a message

1400
01:10:18.439 --> 01:10:20.239
on our website, Love Mary Killing.

1401
01:10:20.319 --> 01:10:23.920
Those messages absolutely did you. Have you been posting the jokes? No,

1402
01:10:23.960 --> 01:10:25.039
I have in competition.

1403
01:10:25.159 --> 01:10:26.640
We were going to have kind of a contest, but

1404
01:10:26.680 --> 01:10:29.640
we haven't really decided how to do this or we

1405
01:10:29.680 --> 01:10:32.000
need to circle back on that. We have gotten quite

1406
01:10:32.000 --> 01:10:32.880
a few up.

1407
01:10:33.000 --> 01:10:35.960
Yeah, and we'll just randomly send some gift cards maybe

1408
01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:38.439
to some people. Sounds good, All right, Well, we appreciate

1409
01:10:38.439 --> 01:10:40.039
your support so much.

1410
01:10:40.560 --> 01:10:41.399
Until next time.

1411
01:10:42.119 --> 01:10:46.880
A happy anniversary. Anniversary. I said it funny, It's okay,

1412
01:10:47.039 --> 01:10:49.560
don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband, don't

1413
01:10:49.560 --> 01:11:08.600
whack anyone.

1414
01:11:03.720 --> 01:11:23.760
The need to back

1415
01:11:25.319 --> 01:11:25.359
The