Betty and Allan Gore/Candy and Pat Montgomery - Part 3 of 3

0:00 Hi, I'm Tina, and I'm rich. Here's one thing that we've learned at over twenty years of marriage. It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife. And some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hello, my love, Hello, my darling. How are you? I am doing pretty good. How are you? I'm good. This is the celebration week of our anniversary, so I'm going to be extra nice to you today. The celebration. Oh you mean when this episode will post? Yes, okay, you got you were breaking out in a sweating for a second.

0:42 You're really scared me for you? Sure, are you? Yeah, of course I do. How are we going to celebrate? I don't know. Maybe a nice dinner, go see a play performance of some sort. I don't know. I don't know either. We'll figure something out. We've got a little time. It's been a lot of years, are you ever Like I can't believe. I mean, it's been a lot a lot of years. Yeah, it's kind of crazy. Yeah, it's been a lot of years. Like when we got married, I was always like, yeah, I don't know, maybe it'll last. I know, I thought it maybe would last, you know, ten years. But you weren't expecting over over twenty. I'm not going to say how so over twenty could mean sixty fifty, you know. Yeah, we that be one hundred and twelve.

1:31 No one really knows. People would like to know. But it has been a long time, many many years of bliss. And happiness and some of not so happiness. Right, I don't think there's been any years of not happiness, crazy stuff. There's been a few moments and times. Yeah, yeah, do you have a big gift plan for your lovely wife? Of course, why would you even have to ask? I am in a question state that I promise you don't need to get me anything. I think you've got me like a nice necklace or something last year, and I don't know. You're good, Okay, I promise you don't need to get me anything. A nice dinner together, and I think we're going on vacation, so I'm sure we'll cherry donut. That's what you can get me.

2:12 Okay, we will stop looking forward to the cherry donut, of course. I mean that is yeah, one of the highlights of going up north. Yeah, we haven't been to Chervers City in a while, so I am looking forward to that. But our last podcast I always get post recording, I'm like, what did I say? Because a lot of times I don't remember what I say. I thought you were going to say, Like you get anxiety about things you forgot to say. Too, but the whole thing just gives me anxiety. But I'm like, I can't believe I told everyone I don't know my right from my left, which I do, but. But in the moment sometimes. Yeah, right, okay, But I wonder if there is something that you could reveal to all of us to make me feel better about being such a cotton headed Ninni muggins all the time.

2:56 You're not a cotton headed ninny. Sometimes I don't know if you would call me DITSI, But no, I. Don't think so. I think we all have our things. I was just thinking about this the other day because we were talking about it. I have a really hard time understanding how time works and daylight savings time. It confuses the hell out of me. I'm I know it sounds like you never remember if we gain an hour or we lose an hour. No, I remember spring forward, fallback, But I can't wrap my head around like, okay, that means we get an extra hour of daylight or no, does that mean one less hour of daylight? I really can't I think wrap my head around that. Maybe, but we might not have to worry about that anymore.

3:37 How do you feel. About that, they're going to make it permanent, right, I guess yeah, I would be. I think I would be in support of that. I'm not really sure what the value of daylight savings time. I think it was originally created so that to save electricity and so that kids didn't have to walk to school in the dark. Maybe, and I think that was part of it. So I don't know. It doesn't seem necessary to me anymore. I agree, I feel especially for young parents. Remember when our kids were really little, and it's really tough for kids to lose an hour and it's light outside. Yeah, it really does have an impact. Okay, Well, I did make you a Texas snack? Oh? Good smells? You have any ideas what it is?

4:17 No? I could smell something. No, definitely didn't peak. I could smell something. It smelled good, but I had no idea what it was. I made Texas sheet cake. Oh did you make that once before? No? I don't think so. Okay, do you want to give it a try really quick? This is from the Pioneer Woman. Excellent rate My cake. Cake was great. It was I had a hankering for something sweet and chocolate e so that hit the spot. I would give it a nine out of ten. We have been horrible about rating our snacks. You need to get better about that. Okay. I have made Texas sheet cake before, and I don't think i've used that it be, but I thought this was great. I might even give it a ten out of ten, just because I wasn't sure how much i'd like it. I think the pecans on top are necessary.

5:09 I didn't mind them. I'm not usually a big fan of nuts, but I thought that it went fine About him. I was going to put heath bits on yours because you don't love nuts, but we didn't have any. I think the nuts added something. I think Cosmo would like to weigh in on the Texas. No, his eyes right now staring at me. Anytime I eat something, he needs to check it for me. The pest. Yeah, he almost never takes a bite or licks anything, but he always wants to check it out. He wants to inspect your food, all right, let's. Get to the case. Finish this thing up. Do you know how this case ends? I really don't know. Okay, I remember watching the show, but I do not remember how it ends.

5:53 I'm looking forward to finishing this and getting your opinion about how it ends, and our listener's opinions too. Do you want to read this? Sure? On Friday, June thirteenth, nineteen eighty, Candy Montgomery left vacation Bible School to make what should have been a quick stop at her friend Betty Gore's house to pick up Betty's daughter, Elisa's swimsuit. When she returned nearly two hours later, she had changed her clothes, bandaged a deep cut on her toe, and rehearsed an explanation for why she had been gone so long. Over the last two episodes, we've followed the friendship between Candy and Betty, their lives at the First United Methodist Church in Lucas, and the affair between Candy and Betty's husband, Alan Gore. Although the affair ended after Allan and Betty attended a marriage and counter weekend, it seemed both couples had put the past behind them. While Allan was away on a business trip, Betty was found brutally murdered in her laundry room after suffering forty one blows from an axe. Detectives quickly focused on those closest to her, including Allan and Candy. As the investigation intensified, Allan admitted he had lied about the affair, and police began collecting evidence from Candy, including her fingerprints, shoes, and clothing. Realizing that investigators were focused largely on her, Candy hired her friend and attorney, Don Crowder.

7:16 Anything else we should mention, guess the. Only thing that comes to mind is that Pat Candy's husband found out about the affair. Right he found a letter that Alan had written to her, and he forgave her. Right, he found out about it, and he did some soul searching and went back to her, and basically we not. Only did he forgive her, but he took the blame for the affair. He said, the affair was my fault because I wasn't giving you the right kind of attention. And he gave her flowers, which was very generous. Yeah, Candy could feel the walls closing in. The police hadn't yet told her, but the bloody fingerprint from the Freezer was a match for her own. They had her at the scene of the crime. The newspaper headline that morning, screamed female friend of husband's sought an axe killing of wiley housewife an axe murderer was sensational enough, but the possibility that the killer was an axe wielding suburban housewife a scorned lover that was almost unimaginable. Reporters scrambled to get the scoop.

8:19 It's kind of wild that the newspapers would publish a headline like that before an arrest was made. That sort of implicates Candy in this whole thing. The only one who Candy had admitted the truth to that she'd killed her sometimes friend, sometimes rival, Betty Gore brutally with forty one swings of an axe was Don Crowder, her friend and attorney. Don told Candy not to tell Pat or anyone else. Candy agreed to a police light detector test, but Don told her no way, explaining that the tests were unreliable. We'll have our person test you and see how you hold up, he said. Meanwhile, Alan wasn't Kansas with his family scheduled to travel back to Texas the following day. Investigators were headed there to question him again. They were sure how involved he was in Betty's murder, but them traveling to Kansas told him that they were pretty serious about the whole thing. The interview was tense and more appointed than the others. They asked him to take a polygraph The next day. He agreed with his new attorney in tow Allan was wired to the machine. Do you know who caused your wife's death? No?

9:31 On or about June thirteenth, nineteen eighty are you yourself the one who caused your wife's death. No, At the time your wife was killed, were you physically present at the home? No? Did you plan or set up with anyone to have your wife killed? No? Before you arrived in Minnesota on or about June thirteenth, did you know your wife had been hurt or killed? No? Do you know anything about your wife's death? You're deliberately not telling me. No. Are you withholding any information regarding your wife's death that you have not admitted? No, you did a great job with those nose. Thank you. The administrator of the test saw no deception in any of Allen's answers. Meanwhile, Candy was submitting for her own physical and polygraph examination. She stripped down and pictures were taken of the deep cuts on her toe and hairline, as well as the healing bruises on her legs. They were only for her attorney's eyes.

10:29 So the police never examined her her body, or she never submitted to them. Not at this point, and about a week has passed, so any bruising or injuries that she may have had probably healed right. On June twenty sixth, nineteen eighty, Candy learned there was a warrant for her arrest. Her bond was set at one hundred thousand dollars. After meeting with a bail bondsman, she turned herself in at eleven fifteen pm. The news media and spectators lining the street waiting for her arrivals captured every moment as Candy walked into the jail, where she was read her miranda rights, she appeared eerily calm, with a slight wry smile on her face. Unable to reach a financial agreement that night, Candy was forced to spend the night in jail. Pat had already given nearly all of the cash he had to pay Don Crowder, so he put their house up as collateral to secure her release. I'll post pictures from her rest, but she is smiling in a lot of them. It's a little eerie, but I think that she was struck. She was on volume or something. Inside the jail, Candy again stripped down and was handed a prison jumpsuit to wear. When the guard who was admitting her noticed the bruises on her body, they photographed them. Once authorities saw the severity of the bruises and wounds, they took her to the hospital to be examined by a doctor. Later this would be called an illegal strip search because it was used as evidence without a proper warrant. Once Candy was returned to the jail,

12:01 peace washed over her and she made up her mind to hand everything over to God. She surprised herself by falling into a deep sleep, exhausted by the day. To your point earlier, this is now, like how far after ear. She was arrested on June twenty sixth, and Betty was murdered on June thirteenth. Oh, so eleven days and so she's still got bruises and wounds on our body at this point. As the news hit the papers the next day about Candy's arrest, her friends and even Pastor Ron Adams rushed to her defense, calling the allegations against her ridiculous. Adams told The Times Harold, She's a very pleasant, very loving sort of person. That she would be guilty of what they say is incomprehensible. She's not capable of committing murder.

12:47 She's a very creative, very talented, very highly intelligent person. The members of the church are appalled. There's not a person out here who believes for a moment that she's guilty. Had personally called Pastor ran to ask him to rally the troops around Candy to sway public opinion. At her bond hearing the next morning, Candy was shocked to find throngs of reporters and spectators again waiting for a sighting of her flash bulbs, momentarily blinding her. After the hearing and bail was arranged, she was free to go. Later, an officer showed up at the Montgomery's house to seize her station Wagon, a car that Candy had been driving on June thirteenth, was full of blood evidence. We talked about this in episode two, but remember that Don Crowder, Candy's attorney, isn't very skilled with murder trials. She's never tried a murder case.

13:41 Okay, Coy right, but he had help also, right, he did mey hireself at help. Well, it was his partner who was very young. Okay. Betty and Candy had both admired Pastor Jackie, though Betty especially looked up to her. Over the years, Jackie had grown close to both women, often serving as a confidant as they navigated the challenges of marriage, motherhood, and church life. Betty's death devastated Jackie. She knew how hard Betty had struggled with feelings of inadequacy and how desperately she had wanted to be a good wife and mother. Jackie had tried to encourage her, but after Betty's death, she couldn't help but wonder if she could have done more.

14:21 When Candy was released from jail, Jackie visited the Montgomery's home. Candy's attorneys had instructed her not to discuss the case, and Jackie respected that. Still, as she sat with Candy and Pat, she couldn't shake the feeling that something was different. Candy, who normally carried herself with confidence and certainty, seemed emotionally distant. Later, Jackie and Pat quietly admitted to one another that she didn't seem like herself. They couldn't explain it, but they both felt she was holding something back. I wonder what that could be. On July ninth, nineteen eighty, a Collin County grand jury formally indicted Candy Montgomery Betty Gore's murder.

15:01 The following morning, the Dallas Morning News published a bombshell front page story claiming that Candy had confessed during a private polygraph examination just one week after the murder. The polygraph had been arranged by Candy's lawyer, Don Crowder to gauge how she might perform under a lie detector test given by law enforcement. According to the anonymous sources, the examiner concluded Candy was being deceptive, confronted her, and she confessed to killing Betty. Candy denied the report, calling it ridiculous, while her attorneys declined to comment, citing attorney client privilege. That must have been infuriating to her lawyers. If this is true and it got leaked, yeah, that's really bad.

15:47 It's horrible for her case. Right. Candy and her attorneys were uncertain how to proceed convinced the media attention had spiraled out of control, Crowder and Judishon prepared emotion, asking Judge Tom Ryan to issue a gag order restricting what attorneys, investigators, and others involved in the case could say publicly when they appeared before Judge Ryan. The hearing took an unexpected turn because the grand jury had formally indicted Candy, the case had now moved into district court. As part of that process, Candy was required to surrender under the indictment. She was taken back into custody, and because this happened on a Friday afternoon, Candy would spend the weekend in jail in a solitary, padded cell.

16:33 Her friends were supportive and started an enthusiastic meal train to feed Pat and the kids. Because he couldn't visit Candy, Pat wrote her the following letter, These last few days have been the most trying times of our lives. I want you to know that I believe in you, and I love you, and I'll always be with you no matter what happens. Don't worry about me, I'll always be with you, And don't worry about the kids. I can take care of them. They of course, miss you. Jenny has really bugged me about when she can have a pony. Ian wants his own pony. I told her we couldn't afford a pony now or for a while. I want you to know that whenever you think of me, I hope you feel warm all over because I'm thinking of you and wanting to be close to you. I can feel your presence too. I'm praying a lot, and I know my prayers will be answered when you lay down to sleep at night. I want you to know that I'm with you and I'm thinking of you. I love you so much.

17:32 I hope if I'm ever in jail awaiting my murder trial, that you send me such a nice letter. It is a very nice letter, and I guess I can only assume from that that pat really believes in her innocence. At this point, Yes, after almost a week in jail, Candy's lawyers were finally able to get her out her Don's request. Sherry smoothed out Candy's perm, giving her subtle waves which made her slightly less recognizable. Down also told her to lose twenty pound before the trial so she would appear frail and incapable of lifting an axe over her head. He thought of everything, he really did. Candy and her family headed to Georgia for a vacation with her parents. During this trip, Pat revealed to Candy that Don had told him that she had killed Betty in self defense. He told her that he was happy that she was still with him.

18:23 This is a shocking development to me. Don told Pat, don't know if that was his place to do that, But no, it doesn't seem like I think that he thought that he needed to know. Yeah, then he was the one who told Candy, don't tell Pat. Right, But the fact that Don also added on that it was in self defense. Candy didn't say that to Don, did she? So he did. He just kind of add that in to make it. We'll get to that, okay. But also, she's left the state. She's in Georgia, And yeah, that can't be okay, can it. I mean, it must have been okay because it happened, but I. Like that would be normal, right. Six weeks after Betty Gore's death, her neighbors began noticing an unknown carr in the driveway late into the night. The car belonged to recently divorced Elaine Williams, the organist at First United Methodist Church. Mmmmmm, boy, that sounds a little scandalous.

19:19 Absolutely. Candy's defense started taking shape after she underwent hypnosis and uncovered a traumatic childhood event. After suffering an injury when she was four, her mother took her to the emergency room. She was bleeding and in pain when her mother shushed her. Wails of pain, anger that she had never felt before bubbled inside Candy. While she was still under hypnosis, The psychiatrist told her to go ahead and scream to unleash the childhood trauma. I don't want to give too much away, but this one event will become a large part of Candy's defense. The whole shushing incident interesting. We'll be back after a break.

20:06 Tom Ryan, the judge assigned to Candy's case, was sixty eight years old and would have preferred to spend his days fishing then overseeing a high profile murder trial. Judge Ryan and Don Crowder had never gotten along, giving Crowder another reason to seek a change of venue and a new judge. The first being that people who lived in Collin County would be incapable of being impartial jurors. The motion for a new venue was denied, but Judge Ryan thought that the new Collin County Courthouse in McKinney wouldn't hold the throngs of people he expected. The old courthouse, which was a couple of blocks away, had a grand three story trial room, including a balcony that would hold at least two hundred and fifty people. He decided that this is where Candy Montgomery's trials should be held. The cleaning crew spent a week preparing the old court house to gleam for the battle ahead. On October twenty third, nineteen eighty, the jury was selected. They were seated much faster than anticipated. The jury consisted of nine women and three men. Among the women were a teacher, three secretaries, and five housewives. The men included a sales engineer, a quality control supervisor, and the head of corporate security for Electronic Data Systems better known as EDS.

21:29 First job by the college. Don Crowder had been forthcoming with the jurors. He admitted straightaway that Candy had killed Betty, but it was self defense, and he promised that he would prove it to them. Don talked to the media briefly after the first day was over. The next morning, before opening statements, Judge Ryan informed Crowder that he would be fined one hundred dollars and sentenced to one day in jail for violating the gag order. Crowder hadn't realized that the gag order was still in effect. The sentence would be served after the trial concluded. By the end of the trial, he'd rack up at least seventy two hours of jail time.

22:09 How judge really did not like him, He didn't. The first witness called was Alan Gore. His demeanor was reportedly stoic, even cold. When the bloody axe was placed next to him on the witness stand, Alan displayed no emotion. But I can't believe that they put the isn't that disturbing? That is really wild Dan. He admitted that he briefly thought about taking his own life when he learned of Betty's death. One of the goals of the defense team was to downplay the emotional attachment between Candy and Alan. Don Crowder got him to admit that the affair was mostly lackluster. Fact of the matter is, mister Gore, neither one of you were very good at this, were you no? So it started out as a lukewarm affair and evolved into something that was merely intellectual. Finally ended up in nothingness, didn't it. Yes, Allan's testimony helped the defense more than the prosecution. Something many found odd. Was it because he had lingering affection for Candy, guilt over the affair, or a genuine belief that she'd acted in self defense. Other witnesses testified about Candy's character, while the Gore's neighbors described the horrifying scene they encountered after Betty's murder. Law enforcement officers walked the jury through the evidence, detailing the chaotic crime scene in the trail of blood that Candy had left behind. By the afternoon of the fourth day, the prosecution rested. Crowder asked the court to be recessed for the day, but Judge Ryan refused. One problem for the defense was that

23:40 Candy had taken a volume, and even without the drug in her system, Candy's emotions were flat. Her attorney was concerned how she'd come across to the jury. I wanted to mention Alan's demeanor while he was testifying, and even before that, after Betty was murdered, he didn't seem all that emotional. Yeah, he's strange. Yeah, and he was. He wasn't defending Candy, but he just didn't seem as angry as you would expect him to do. Yeah. Well, especially after it came out that they were saying that she did it but it was self defense, I would think he would be furious, like he now should have no doubt that she did it, even if he had doubts before. But yeah, I get it. He's, you know, a logical, rational engineering type guy. But still, this is your wife, and you also probably feel guilty as well.

24:30 Because and then he's got the church organist, you know, giving up cast roles at night. Too, right? Do you think you could be seduced by cast roles? I mean I do love a good cast role. Once on the witness stand, Candy talked about arriving at the Gore's house just after ten am. Betty wasn't expecting her until later, but she welcomed her in and gave her a cup of coffee. When Betty mentioned their new Cocker Spaniel, Poppy Cheetoh, Candy wanted to play with him and Princess, their older dog. They sat down in the living room and Candy told Betty about her new venture with Sherry and handed her a business card. When Candy said she needed to get going and asked for Elisa's swimsuit, Betty then asked, point blank, are you having an affair with Allen? No, of course not, but you did, didn't you?

25:18 Yes, but that was a long time ago. Betty abruptly got up and walked to the garage and then came back with the axe. I don't want you to ever see him again. You can't have. Him, Betty, it's been over for a long time. I'm not seeing him. I don't want him under the circumstances. I think I'll just bring a Lisa home and drop her off right after Bible School. No, I don't want to see you anymore. Just keep Alisa and take her to the movies because I don't want to look at you again. Bring her home tomorrow. Betty put the axe down. I'll get a towel from the bathroom. You get a Lisa's suit off the washer. Betty returned with a towel and the peppermint candy that they rewarded Alisa with when she put her head underwater.

26:03 Candy put the items in her purse. She noticed Betty looking as if she was about to cry and went to comfort her, touching her arm. Betty pushed her hard and Candy stumbled back into the laundry room. Then Betty grabbed the axe. You can't have him. You can't have him. I'm going to have another baby and you can't have him this time. Betty, don't this is stupid. I don't want alan. Candy tried to pull the axe from Betty's grasp. Betty, don't do this, please stop. I've got to kill you. Remember this is Candy on the witness stand, and this is her account of how things happen. Right. The axe played nicked Candy in the head in the fight for control. Then Betty raised the axe over her head and swung it towards Candy, hitting the linoleum floor and Cutty, cutting Candy's middle toe. Candy wrestled the axe away from Betty. She fell to the ground while Candy delivered the first blow to the back of her head.

26:59 Blood splurted from the wound, covering Candy. She turned her run out of the house, but Betty was following her, now in possession of the axe. They wrestled for control of the axe again, and Candy screamed, I don't want him, I don't want Allen. Betty remembered baby Bethany was asleep and shushed Candy loudly. The sound tripped Candy back to the painful childhood memory lodged deeply in her psyche. Fueled by the inner rage, she pushed Betty to the ground and started swinging the axe wildly, making solid contact with Betty's head and body. When Betty stopped moving, Candy snapped back to reality. Realizing what she'd done. She felt sick. She ran to the bathroom and stepped into the shower, fully clothed and washed the blotting gore from herself. But then she walked calmly out of the Gore's house, leaving behind the baby and the two dogs, as if she just had a nice visit with Betty. Once she reached the country roads, she drove haphazardly, trying to formulate a plan.

27:57 She went home and quickly washed out her burger blouse and threw it in the dryer. She took another shower, carefully washing her hair. Then she put on a fresh pair of jeans and the washed, damped burgundy blouse. She bandaged her toe and traded her flip flops for sneakers and headed back to the church, devising her story as she drove. She and Betty had had a nice visit and played with the dogs. They got talking and lost track of the time. She went to Target to get Father's Day cards, but when she got there, she realized that her watch had stopped, and she headed straight back to the church. Don pointed to the axe in the courtroom. Is this the axe that you used to kill Betty Gore? Yes, Candy answered, through her tears. The defense argued that Betty's shushing triggered the traumatic memory Candy had suppressed for twenty five years, causing her to enter into a dissociative state.

28:49 According to the defense, Candy became psychologically detached from reality and reacted not to Betty herself, but to the unresolved trauma she was reliving, and that altered meant state. They argued, she lashed out without conscious awareness or intent. Did her defense team have any psychiatrists testify to support that. Theory, yet they did. The person who hypnotized her testified okay. Another compelling moment came during cross examination when the prosecutor asked if the affair with Alan had been the only affair that she'd ever had, the first but not the last, she admitted sheepishly. When pressured to reveal the man's identity, Candy refused. She wouldn't say the name, but she spelled it.

29:32 Pat wasn't in the courtroom. Candy had never revealed the second affair to him. I was going to ask you about that. Wow. When court was over for the day, she rushed to Pat to tell him before the media could. At first he was incredulous, Then he sobbed openly, truly heartbroken. As the trial was nearing its final stage, the judge de cited that Candy needed to be examined by a psychiatrist to ensure that she was competent to stand trial. She passed the test with flying colors. Not afraid to speak ill of the victim, Don Crowder paraded several witnesses into the courtroom to assassinate Betty Gorey's character, portraying her as an unhinged, hysterical woman. It was like she was on trial, not Candy. Former coworkers described her as short tempered, moody, and difficult to work with. Even Pastor Ron Adams testified that Betty could be stubborn and demanding. Crowder also emphasized Betty's physical size, reminding the jury that she was significantly larger than Candy Montgomery. This part really made me mad because he was pretty brutal. And remember that he knew Betty, he went to church with them.

30:38 Mm hmm, yeah, I get that. But when you've decided that your defense is going to be that she attacked Candy first and it had to be self defense, I guess really he had no other choice than to try to paint her as a awful person. Right, And he kept talking about how large Betty was. Betty was an average sized woman. Candy was probably slightly smaller, but yeah, that wasn't very much really. After eight days it was time for closing arguments. Crowder said to the jury, you have an opportunity here to allow a family to stay together. Don't rob two children of their mother. Don't rob a husband of his wife. Again, I know he's doing his job as a defense attorney, but I mean, that's exactly what Candy did.

31:20 I it was a little bit ironic. It took the jury just a few hours to reach a verdict not guilty on all counts, Candy Montgomery was acquitted after the first hour of deliberations. The jury took an initial vote on the murder charge. Nine voted not guilty while three voted guilty. Quickly, they reached a unanimous decision that the prosecution had failed to prove the murder charge. The more difficult question was the voluntary manslaughter charge. The first vote was evenly split, with six jurors voting guilty and six voting not guilty. Two hours later, however, all twelve agreed that the state had failed to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt, and they returned a verdict of not guilty.

32:05 When Candy, pat and her attorneys walked out of the courthouse after the judge ended the trial, they were met by an angry crowd. The verdict shocked much of the public Outside the courthouse, some spectators shouted murderer. As Candy left under heavy security. Someone had threatened both her life and don crowders. Many questioned how someone who admitted killing another person with forty one blows from an axe could be acquitted. Others felt Betty Gore had been forgotten in the courtroom drama. The scene outside the courthouse is kind of crazy. It almost looks like a Karen Reied type scene. Yeah, which people with signs and they're yelling and they're pretty angry.

32:46 Sounds like it. The jurors, however, felt differently. They weren't asked whether Candy had killed Betty that was never in dispute. They were asked whether the prosecution had proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Candy had not acted in self defense. After the verdict, one juror explained, we didn't care if it was one gunshot or one hundred blows. It was still self defense. After eight days of testimony and several hours of deliberation, all twelve jurors concluded the state had failed to meet that burden. The verdict remains one of the most controversial in modern Texas history and continues to divide opinion more than four decades later, Candy and Pat went home to celebrate with friends, popping bottles of champagne, but Candy was in for a rude awakening. She may have been acquitted by a jury of her peers, but the court of public opinion had already convicted her. Many people were disgusted by the verdict and by Candy herself.

33:45 Whatever life she had built in Lucas was over. She would never be the queen Bee she once was. I can imagine being a friend of hers, I would have a hard time continuing that friendship. Yeah, I think even Sherrie did her very best friends. In an exercise from their Marriage and counter Workshop, Betty once wrote to Allan, There's only one thing that bothers me. I'm so afraid that something will happen and I won't get to see the kids grow up and be around to grow old. I guess with a new baby, it suddenly occurs to me that something could happen and I won't see her grow up. Now that we're really getting things together too, I'm just very afraid that something will happen and it will all be taken away. Am I feeling silly? I hope they are just part of my being depressed, which I don't really feel too much. But there's definitely something there. I'm sure I have no reason to feel this way. Sadly, Betty's fears were realized. She never got to see her daughters grow up. Betty was a complicated woman who sometimes struggled with her mental and physical health, but she had a big heart and loved her family deeply. Over the years, she has often become a supporting character in her own story a footnote in the Tale of Candy Mindgomery. But before she was a victim, Betty was a daughter, a wife, a mother, and a friend.

35:05 She deserved the chance to watch her girls grow up, to grow old, and to live an extraordinary, ordinary life that she had hoped for. Rest in peace, Betty, We'll be back after a break. My main source for this case is a book called Evidence of Love, A true Story of Passion and Death in the Suburbs by Jim Atkinson and John Bloom. Before writing the book, the authors published a two part feature Love and Death in the Silicon Prairie in Texas Monthly in nineteen eighty four, and both are excellent pieces of writing. They interviewed more than one hundred people connected to the case, including Candy and Pat Montgomery and Alan Gore. Candy reportedly later regretted cooperating with them.

35:56 I am a little surprised that Candy, Pat and Alan would all agree to talk about this. I would think all of them would just want to. Move on, and they have since. Yeah, it's shocking. The book was great. It was a page turner, one of those true crime novels that reads almost as fiction. But that said, I do have criticism. The authors tend to portray Candy as fun loving and charismatic, while casting Betty in a far less sympathetic light, often dismissing her physical and mental health issues. In the final chapter, they speculate about what might have been going through Betty's mind on June thirteenth, nineteen eighty, even suggesting that pre menstrual syndrome PMS and hormone modal changes contributed to her behavior. To me, that is an unnecessary leap. There is zero credible scientific evidence linking PMS to homicidal behavior. All hormones can intensify emotions, they don't create them out of thin air. This speculation reflects a bygone era when it was easier to blame a woman's hormones than to actually understand her lived experience.

36:59 It's one of the few parts of an otherwise outstanding book that hasn't aged well, and I doubt the authors would reach the same conclusion today. Well, even talking about Betty's behavior at all on that day, They don't know what her behavior was. They don't know that she attacked Candy. That's that's Candy's version of the story, right, And the. Authors went on for a while about Betty's frame of mind that day because Allen had just left town, and you know, she didn't like when he traveled. She thought that she was pregnant. Again, she wasn't, but she thought she was, and they were supposed to go on this trip, and she was so looking forward to the trip. And so they went on and on about, well, these these are the factors that made Betty homicidal that day. And I don't think I buy it. Yeah, So, in the years since the book was written, Jim Atkinson admits that while he once believed Candy's version of events, now he has doubts. Quote, I am still of mixed feelings about this case. I have trouble with the idea that it was self defense. I think this story will well, well, it's almost Shakespearean. It will go on and on. It's an amazing story. It's rich, and it's resonant, and it has lessons to it that I think are eternal in some way. Allan later married Betty and Candy's friend and former first United Methodist organist Elaine Williams and moved away from Texas. Betty's parents raised her and Alan's daughters. I'm not sure when Alan married Elaine, but it was I think right after the trial, and the trial is in

38:31 October of nineteen eighty. Betty died in June of nineteen eighty. God, I'm not exactly sure why Betty's family raised the girls. I think that they were pretty angry at Allan. I don't really know. I wish I knew more about that. I thought there was a custody hearing or what. Whle thing makes me look down on Allan even more, I guess than I did. I didn't. I mean, I was down on Alan because of him having the affair with Candy, but I was kind of like, well, it's not he didn't kill Betty or anything like that. But yeah, this leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Definitely a big ick. The second marriage ended in divorce, and he, I think is married and lives in Maine.

39:13 Don Crowder ran for a governor of Texas in nineteen eighty six but lost. He later worked as a city attorney and opened a sports bar, but in nineteen ninety eight he took his own life at age fifty six. Reportedly after his brother's death, he struggled with substance abuse. He was deeply ashamed when he got a DUI. Weeks before his death, he told the fort Worth Star Telegram that case was maybe the zenith of an extraordinary successful career or the demise of what could have been. He said Betty Gore's face still haunted him. He regretted defending Candy Montgomery Wow. Candy and Pat relocated to Georgia shortly after the trial, where she went by the name of Candice Wheeler. They reportedly divorced a few years later. Became a licensed family therapist. Twenty twelve, her license expired, so I think she practiced that whole time. She declined to participate in the show's Candy or Love and Death, But I think Jessica Biale reached out to her and she was like, no, no, I'm good.

40:18 Thanks. Old is Candy now? So I think I failed to say how old Betty and Candy both were. They were both thirty on June thirteenth, nineteen eighty, so I think she's seventy five. And I think the main characters other than Betty are still alive. Despite their rough start in life, Betty's daughters both graduated as salutatorians of their respective classes. They're both married with families of their own. One works as a chief accounting officer and the other as an assistant principal. Betty would be very proud of them. Bethany named one of her daughters Betty. They were estranged from their father for most of their childhood. I wanted to talk briefly about the show's Candy and Love and Death. I had never watched Love and Death. I think you and I maybe watched one episode.

41:06 I think we did. Candy came out first. We watched Candy and we really liked it. Love and Death came out very soon after. Right, you can't remember how, but it was pretty soon. Do we really need to watch this again? Yeah, we watched one episode and we're like, I don't know, but I watched rewatch them both, and I think they're both really good. I think that Love and Death it was very Hollywood, like Elizabeth Olson plays Candy and she's just a beautiful young woman. And Jessica Bial played Candy in the show Candy, and I felt like her portrayal of Candy was more spot on from everything that I've read, Like Elizabeth Olsen, she did such a good and she she's a great actress, but I just felt like she didn't get like the nugget of the character as well as Jessica bial did. But that's just my opinion.

41:58 Do you feel like both shows were pretty accurate or was one more? Both based on the same book that I read, which is, you know, the source on the case a couple of things, like in Candy, Betty was actually pregnant, but they were both pretty spot on. I thought, not spot on, but I thought they both did a really good job telling the story. One thing that bothered me was Jackie Ponder was a black woman, and in Love and Death a white woman played her, which kind of was one of the choice those cool things like she was, you know, in nineteen eighty and Texas and she was, you know, this powerful black woman yea was leading this church, And so I don't know why they would have changed that cast out.

42:41 That seems like a very odd choice. One thing that we haven't talked about much, but we're going to get to it when we get to our discussion is a pair of sunglasses that were Candy sunglasses that were broken and they were kicked under the freezer. I think in the garage there was one lens found, but a police officer, remember the Wiley Police Department, They weren't seasoned in investigating murders. So this officer picked up the lens that was found in the garage and was like, look what I found. So then it became inadmissible. Okay. But in Love and Death the trial scene, the sunglasses were presented as evidence and they argued about them, and that wasn't based in reality. A lot of the trial was real.

43:27 Well, what would that have indicated if they could have allowed that in the trial, Like that one of the sunglass lenses was found in the garage, what does that tell you? Candy had said that she had never been in the garage before, okay, so and so it made you wonder, like where did the axe come from here? To believe candy story, Betty really got the axe and she placed it awkwardly in the room kind of is you know, a threat? And so the sunglasses being in the garage meant that the garage door was open and somehow they got kicked out there. There was a little bit of blood found in the garage as well. Interesting I mentioned I. Think in the second episode that I also watched on YouTube, small Town Murder. It was like in the nineteen eighties, and Barbara Hershey played Candy. Oh wow, and that was good too. I don't know which one was my favorite.

44:19 Love and Death was very Hollywood. David E. Kelly was the producer and director, and I think he had a very big budget, and everyone was probably better looking than they were, Like I think Betty and Candy were both attractive women, but they weren't, you know, gorgeous Hollywood looking women, except for poor Jesse Plemons, who played Alan, who I just I love him so much. She's such a good actor and he played Alan really well. But in real life Allen was, you know, not as pudgy and kind of awkwardly. Yeah. Well, I really the only one I watched was Candy, but I love that. I thought it was really well done. And there's something about like when a show is made about that time period, like the late seventies or nineteen eighty, it just has like a look to it and a feel to it. And I just thought it was super well done. And I think was it Melanie Lynsky, Yeah, that played Beatty.

45:13 I thought she was I love herself. She's a really great actress and she was really good. And I thought Jessica bille did a really outstanding job as Candy as well. Well. The acting in Love and Death was also excellent. So if you haven't watched both of those shows, I highly recommend both of them. Let us know what you think if you've watched them, if you prefer one versus the other. But Candy was just a little grittier, and I mean, Jessica Biale, she really did do a great job. Right, are you ready to discuss a little further? Yeah, all right, to. You and to our listeners. Do you believe Candy's version of events that she acted in self defense? You know, I've been thinking about that ever since we talked about it, and I'm a little bit torn, to be honest with you, because if it wasn't self defense, I don't see the motive for Candy just going over and killing Betty because from everything we know, at least it may not be one hundred percent true, but the affair was over or had been over for quite a while.

46:11 Of course, was that though I'm saying that's. I think it likely was because it does seem like the marriage account encounter for Allen and Betty was like a period, like it's over, moving on with her lives. But if it wasn't self defense, why did Candy do it then? So I am struggling a little bit with that, Like Candy just goes. Over, Betty picked the ax up first. I really don't know. I can what I can imagine is that maybe Betty did confront Candy, maybe she did ask her about the affair. I can't imagine her going and getting the axe. It just seems very odds character. I don't know how the acts got in the room. Yeah, I'm really curious about that.

46:53 I can believe more that Candy would have just snapped, like maybe they gotten an argument and that Candy just you know, lost it and grabbed went and grabbed the axe or whatever. And remember Betty suffered kind of from chronic pain, and would she have been able to pick that ax up and start start hitting the axe? So we had an axe at one point you were ask and I asked you the other day do we have an axe? And you were like, why do you want to know? Because I just wanted to like pick up an accent because I know, it's not an easy thing to do, let alone forty times, I know, And how do you think that would be really? Oh God, that that would be really hard to do.

47:34 It would be physically exhausting, but just mentally too doing that. I can't even imagine. And it was in a laundry room, right, which is I don't know how big the laundry room was, but yeah, it seems like that would be really difficult, you know, for a full sized axe to be swinging that around in a laundry room. But yeah, I can't imagine striking someone that many times. How did a jury manage to find compassion for Candy's proven childhood trauma but show zero empathy for the victim sitting at the center of this tragedy. I mean, the only thing I can think is that Candy was there, and she took the stand and talked, and you know, I guess she is maybe a charming person and a believable person. You know, Betty wasn't there to tell her story, so you know, I can sort of see them being swayed by that. But yeah, the whole childhood trauma thing really that bothered me. That bothers me too, Like just you got shushed once when you were angry, when you were young.

48:31 I mean, with that defense theory, we have all been through stuff like horrible things, and that seemed like a fairly minor incident. Yeah, that really blows my mind that they bought that. Are you surprised how quickly this went to trial? Yeah, that is super quick. I know times have changed a little bit, so maybe it was just a you know, different time and things tended to move a little bit faster. But yeah, that is super fast. I have a few things in my notes here to illustrate why that happened, and the central facts weren't disputed. Candy admitted killing Betty, so the trial focused on whether it was self defense rather than who committed the crime. Cases were less complex than nineteen eighty. There was no DNA testing, digital evidence, or lengthy forensic analysis. Courts in nineteen eighty emphasized speedy trials and favored moving criminal cases through the system faster than today. I feel like that.

49:26 I guess it doesn't benefit the defendant, but I wish the trials moved along faster than they did today. Yeah. Sometimes it's just crazy how many times these things get delayed. Do you think that Betty knew about the affair, Like, if you believe Candy's account that Betty confronted her, do you think that happened that way? I mean, like I said before, that's the only thing I can think of that makes sense. I can't I can't imagine Candy just killing Betty unprovoked or without any sort of So. Do you think that Betty could have said, Candy, I know that you had an affair with my husband. I'm going to tell Jackie Ponder and Pastor Adams and everyone else, and that would probably be.

50:09 Enough that seems somewhat plausible to me that could have caused Candy to snap? Do you think that Alan loved Betty? One of the things that bothered me the most, that made me the saddest, was when Alan was at Betty's funeral and he was looking at her casket and he started crying, and he was crying because he didn't know if he ever he said, he didn't know if he ever loved Betty. That may be really sad. Yeah, that is really sad, And I would have said, yes, I think he loved her until after everything that happened afterwards, like moving on so fast Okay, maybe you know, he was a guy that couldn't didn't feel like he could take care of himself, and so felt like he needed to move on quickly. But then I don't know, just like giving up his kids, which again we don't know if that was voluntarily or not, but it sounds like I think he didn't really was. I mean, it sounds like he didn't have a relationship with them, so you must have kind of given up on.

51:02 Yeah, because they were pretty young. Yeah, so that really bothers me. Yeah, So I don't know. I mean, it doesn't seem like he didn't do right by Betty for sure. If the roles were reversed and Betty killed Candy, do you think that she would have gotten off. Well, that is an interesting question because I could see in that case, her defense could be that, you know, she just found out about this affair and this was shocking to her and she snapped. And I think in a lot of cases that is sort of a valid defense that you were you were provoked, but. It was a better defense than the defense. It's definitely a better defense. But I don't know if the jury would have like.

51:44 With her personality and all those you know, her history, her medical history and whatnot. Yeah, I kind of think that Betty would not have gotten off as easily as Candy. Yeah, I think you might be right. Neither of these women had a history of violence, so it's hard to believe that either of them would have grabbed the axe first. Why didn't Betty? If Betty was the one who grabbed the axe, why didn't she just grab a kitchen knife or a different implement in the house. To me, it seems so strange that she would have walked all the way to the garage, Yeah, to get an axe. Yeah, it is very strange. I guess it doesn't seem likely that an axe would have just been, you know, sitting there in the living room. Yeah. I guess Cay have known. I'm sorry, Would Candy have known that an axe was in the garage?

52:28 Yeah? Who knows. I guess an axe is a more dramatic sort of gesture, like if you want to scare someone, dragging a big axe into the house is probably a little more you know, impactful than grabbing a knife. But either way, Yeah, it's it's kind of baffling how the axe ended up as part of this whole thing. One aspect of the case that is driving me crazy that I haven't really heard anyone else talk about is that Candy had this really busy day. She is at vacation Bible school, and then she needs to, you know, go get father's stay cards, and you know, she has all these errands and she's a little stressed out. Why would she take the time to go pick up Elisa's swimsuit when their kids are the same size. Interesting, and it's ten o'clock in the morning and she's going to have to come back later to that side of town, yea for the swim lesson. Why wouldn't she just get the swimsuit when she came back around later.

53:27 Oh that's really interesting. Yeah, I never would have thought of that. But it does make you wonder did she go there with the intention of like having a fight or a conversation. Called Betty before? She wasn't Like, she didn't ask for permission about the Empire strikes back. She just said, oh, I'm sure it'll be okay with your mom. I'll Why wouldn't she have called Betty in the morning and said, I you know, how do you feel about this plan? Yeah? And really I thought of this a lot too. You know, your kids are six and seven around there, a two night sleepover is a big deal because they're going to be a mess by the time they get home, right, So, and Betty, like, if we're to believe everything we've heard about her, she's a little strict, and I'm not sure if she would have been okay with Matt. Yeah, So it just was surprising to me when I thought about it that I'm, yeah.

54:18 That's actually really interesting that you bring that up. It does make you wonder if Candy went over there for a reason other than this one suit. Unless it's gross to people to borrow someone else's swimsuit, maybe it is, I don't know. At our old house we had a pool and we always had extra swimsuits in case someone forgot there's or whatever. And and if anything, in nineteen eighty, I think it would be less gross than maybe today people would be a little more uptight about that. I think in nineteen eighty that was I don't. Know, yeah, bath once a week in nineteen eighty exactly. Do you remember when Candy and Betty were sitting there talking and Betty asked Candy point blank, are you having an affair with Alan?

54:58 According to Candy. Acording to Candy, and then Candy said, you know, under the circumstances, I don't think Alisa should go to the movie with us. I'll bring her back after vacation Bible school. And Betty said, well, I don't want to see you anymore. You can just bring her back tomorrow. That didn't make sense to know. There, That totally doesn't make sense right here. You'd be like, you adulterer, you did that with my kid right now, right or I'll go pick up my kid. You know, I don't want you to touch my kid or see my kid anymore. So write that part of the story doesn't end up either, yeah, exactly. Candy's defense argued that she entered into a profound associative state and that she wasn't consciously aware of what she was doing during the attack, despite that she had a frame by frame memory of what happened when she entered the Gore home, and she had the mind to take a shower. But then she forgot the baby. Because some people are like, oh, she was just in this state of mind. She forgot that the baby was there.

55:56 But she thought Allan was coming home. She didn't know he was on a business trip. Right. Well, even with that, it's eleven o'clock in the morning at the latest, and Alan wouldn't get home until. Four, right. You're right, though, that doesn't make a lot of sense. Like, Oh, my defense is that I snapped because I had this childhood memory and it came back to me and I just lost it and I hit this woman forty times with an axe. But yeah, I remember everything about it. That doesn't add up. One thing I think in her defense is that she didn't clean up the crime scene at all, like you know, the rug and. Walls, fingerprint on the refrigerator. Yeah, I mean, unless she thought that she could have gotten away with it.

56:40 Regardless of whether she was triggered by a childhood trauma or not, she was obviously in some sort of a manic, frenzied state, so it's not too surprising that she would walk out without trying to clean up the crime scene. If you were on the jury, do you think that you would have voted for acquittal. I mean, I didn't sit through the trial, but I have a hard time believing I would have voted for acquittal in this case. It just it's just not adding up to me. What do you think of the sunglasses evidence. We kind of talked about that a little bit, like the sunglasses that were found in the garage. Like the garage, you're envisioning the house like it's like our house, right, Like it opens up into a mud room, right or the laundry room. The laundry room was right near the garage. Yeah, so it does. I mean, I guess the sunglass evidence would say that Candy must have been in the garage, or likely that she had been in the garage.

57:30 I believe she said that she tried to escape, but she was heading towards the front door, not the garage. So yeah, you do wonder how the garage door got open. Yeah, and by Candy's story, like the first hit on the back of her head with an axe, I think that that would have been incapacitated. I would think so, But she was saying, oh, she was still going after me. But you think it would slower down and know where she would have been able to run out the front door? Right? Yeah, I would think so too. Crime we're committed today, what do you think would happen? You know, I don't really know if that it would be that different because there's no there's no evidence there. That wouldn't be that would be different today, right, There wasn't like DNA, I mean, the DNA didn't matter.

58:16 Well, one thing I'm curious about is the axe. Were Betty's singer prints on the axe? So they didn't test for fingerprints on the axe or we don't know. I don't know. The blood spatter evidence, though, might be able to reveal a little bit more to like may sequence of events. Yeah, my blood spatter evidence is a little bit questionable even today, I think of you know how much you can really read into. That And a little more in Kandy's defense is the wounds on her body, Like her legs were very bruised. But if you're swinging an axe wildly, I think you could possibly hit yourself and accidentally hit your toe right. Well, the toe was the main thing right where she had cut her toe.

58:58 On her forehead there was a cut. There was a cut on her. Forehead, yeah, and then her toe, her middle toe, and then the bruising on her legs. I mean, in a small, confined space, when you're swinging an axe forty times and you've got somebody who is presumably fighting for their life and fighting back, you're gonna end up with some injuries on your body. Yeah, I think so too. And who else gave forty whacts? Lizzie Borden? Isn't that weird? That is weird. I was thinking that as well. But she didn't really swing the axe forty times. I think it was twelve. Yeah, it's the song, but it is kind of a little crazy. So your take what is your takeaway? We're gonna end the discussion now, but what is your takeaway? I think Candy should have gone to prison for manslaughter probably probably maybe not first degree murder, but I think she should have been found guilty of manslaughter from everything that I've heard.

59:48 Who do you believe touched the axe first? Because I think that's important. That is a great question. I don't know who touched the ax first. I just I still can't wrap my head around either Andy just going there and saying I'm going to grab an axe and murder. Canny have known an axe was there unless she entered the house through the garage. But I also can't wrap my head around Betty attacking canvas with an axe or threatening or with an axe either. I've never once thought I'm going to grab an axe and hurt someone with it, right, Yeah, I don't know. Let us know what you guys think. I hope you enjoyed this three part episode. What do you think of hypnosis?

1:00:31 I am fascinated by hypnosis, but I'm also a skeptic of. Hypnosis, so skeptical. I would love to have someone try to hypnotize it. We'll look into my eyes. Okay, you are not a trained hypnotist, so. You can get trained at a weekend. Can you? Yeah, Well, then why don't you do it? I'd like to never really thought about doing it until I just found out that you can do it fairly quickly this week. Most people who do it, though, are psychologists and psychiatrists, people like that, all though my major was psychology. Well you are perfectly, you think, so set to do that. Yeah, what would you want me to train you to do or whatever? I well, I just think it would be fascinating to know if there were like childhood memories. I don't know if I want to know if I have like buried childhood memories, but it'd be it'd be interesting to know, because always I always think about that. I do. I do believe that people have childhood memories that they've repressed or that they you know, have locked away but.

1:01:32 You know you don't talk about it, but you went through some really hard things in your childhood. Yeah, and I'm if there are such a thing as repressed memories, which that's a controversial topic too, you know, I don't I mean the one I can recover them or not. I mean, not to go too deep into my childhood trauma. But my dad died when I like right after I turned eight years old, and I have very few memories of my dad, which I think most people have memories from before their age, and I really don't have many, Like I have a couple of them. That must hurt you a little bit, remember exactly. That's what I was going to say, is like it would be nice to be able to, you know, pull up some of those memories.

1:02:13 Do you look at old pictures and then you can remember things? No, I mean I look at old pictures for sure, but it doesn't bring back memories for. A little ritchie. That breaks my heart. It is kind of funny, Well, just to go on a little bit longer about this, So it is funny like that there are two memories that I have of my dad that are very distinctive, and they both involve falling out of trees, which is really weird. I do remember one time we went to an apple orchard. It was to pick your own apple orchard, and we were picking apples and I wanted to climb the tree, and I remember my dad told me no. He was worried I was going to fall or something, and so he's like, no, I don't. You don't climb the tree. You'll fall and break your leg or something. And I remember I got very upset about that and I had a fit. That's all I remember about that particular memory. I didn't try to no. No. But then another memory I have is our neighbor climbing a tree. A boy he was like my age, and he fell from the tree, and I remember my dad running out to help him, like I.

1:03:12 Was your dad was gonna be like see, I told you no. I was with our neighbor and I ran to get my dad, and I remember him running out to help this young this boy, and I remember trying to run like my dad because I felt like the way he was kind of running I was trying to get it was just like he was sort of like trotting. It was sort of like relaxed but urgent at the same time. But it is weird that those are the two main memories I have. Interesting, Well, your dad was a mail carrier. Yeah, I just think of male carriers as being helpful, good people, like the Sesame Street song. These are the people in your neighborhood, and you know male carriers are I mean, especially when you know you grew up. It was he had a walking room.

1:03:57 No, he had a rural route, so he drove truck, but it was out in the country. And I do remember going with him maybe once, and he had like a he drove his own car. It wasn't a mail truck, which meant yeah, yeah, that the steering wheel was on you know, the side that your car is on, which meant that you had to have like this extender device to open the mailboxes and put the mail in. But by all accounts, my dad was Yeah, he was a great guy. Everyone really seemed to like him. I mean, I also have like a really bad memory, and there is a little bit of trauma in my too, So I do think that that is, you know, just a sign of a lot of times PTSD and things like that that we don't remember things on purpose.

1:04:40 I don't know. I don't even actually do. I was gonna say, I don't even remember I had for dinner last night, But I do remember because we went and got ice cream. We did because we are adults and we have free will. That's right. But how how early is your earliest memory that. I remember things from when I was like four? You really I do? Yeah, I guess I do have a few memories of playing with like my friend, yeah Danny, Like we would go out, we would wander off into like this field, which is crazy. We were four four years old or five years old. But yeah, I guess I do have a few memories from that age. I remember kindergarten. Do you remember kindergarten? I remember getting yelled at once in kindergarten, because.

1:05:21 You were probably yelled at like twice your whole school. I was yelled at because they called our reading group over and I didn't hear the teacher. And the teacher said, rich, are you a member of the crickets reading group or not? And I didn't know. I was like, I don't know, I'm. Was that this was that the fast. Group or no I was in the fast Apparently I was also in the inattentive group. I this is this is kind of a sad memory. But when I talking about reading groups, I went to kindergarten and then we moved and we moved from like the Chicago suburbs to more the rural area. Yeuh huh. And we didn't learn how to read in kindergarten. So in first grade, I think the school that I moved to, like you learned how to read, and I didn't know how to read. Behind I was I was behind, which I mean I was. I mean I was a pretty smart kid, but I guess I never I don't know know that we have a lot of books growing up you but I do now I have a lot of I learned how to read more, but it was kind of a tragic thing because I was pretending to read.

1:06:28 And I think my teacher was really sweet and she was like she would I remember the other kids would go out to recess and she worked with me, and I think I did. It was very sweet. But my memory is that I caught on really quick, and by the end of the year I was in the smart I think we were more like red, yellow, and blue or something like that. So what were the other insects. I didn't even know the name of my own reading group, much less the names of the other reading maybe the lady Vigues, you know, I don't know. I heard today that Brian Kohlberger. I saw that. You saw that. I was like, oh my gosh, this guy will just not go away.

1:07:09 He is changing his plea. He wants to change his plea from guilty to not guilty. Yeah, which is ridiculous. I just think they're I mean, I don't know much evidence. I haven't followed the case that closely, but yeah, that's my understanding is that everyone knows he did it. Cases like this bothered me so much because there's just so much traum and so many people hurt, you know, even if you're not a family member, but the you know, the college kids. It's just what it was, just so got it so awful. So awful. Another case in the news is Mitch McConnell. What do you think is going on with Mitch McConnell. Well, I did see did you see that the new picture? There's a new picture of and it's basically the same as the old picture. He's just got a different shirt on.

1:07:52 He hasn't looked so good in ten years. I know something something. Is something doesn't smell so good. Yeah, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it doesn't feel right to me. Like if he's you know, doing okay, and he's really in a facility, a rehab facility, then have audio. Yeah, just do a short video or something. Yeah, it's something's not right. You might have whiplash from the way this conversation is going on. I feel like you kind of got a little vulnerable and deep there. I think we both. I feel like I just had some therapy, so that was great. Really, the podcast does make us talk sometimes about things that we don't talk about in real time, so it's good to.

1:08:34 Talk about those things even without being hypnotized. Well, going back to hypnotism, that's what I meant to start asking you, is what could I what else could I do for you? Like, once I go through my training, can I hypnotize you to just eat one oreo at a time? Do you think that's possible? Probably be a good thing to do. I mean, I don't know if it's possible or not. It might be you know, a lot to task, But if you're really good at hypnosis, then yeah, I think that would be great. You were growing up, did your parents smoke? Uh? Yeah? Did they go through ever go to a hypnotist to stop smoking? No? My mom stopped after my dad passed away, and it was the hardest thing that she ever did. I remember she was like, this is so hard. Even years after she quit, she was like, I still crave a cigarette.

1:09:18 Wow. Yeah. A lot of people go to hypnotists for that, and some people say it worked. I think my mom did that really yeah, but I don't think it wor didn't take. No. Well, once again, you've wasted a perfectly good hour listening to Love Mary Kill. Well, if you like the work that we are doing and you want us to stick around for a while, the best way to support us is to join us on Patreon. Go to patreon dot com slash love Mary Kill For five dollars a month. You could early add free bonus episode and I said. That wrong, regular episodes too. You get it by now. You do get a monthly bonus episode, and we have I think you mentioned it the other day, but we have probably forty thirty years.

1:09:59 I don't think there' quite forty. Maybe this month. Yeah, we have a lot, and some of them not some of them there they're full length episodes and their regular research. I think they're Yeah, we put just as much into those as we do. Yeah, we really do. Find us on social media. Send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com, or leave us a message on our website, Love Mary Killing. Those messages absolutely did you. Have you been posting the jokes? No, I have in competition. We were going to have kind of a contest, but we haven't really decided how to do this or we need to circle back on that. We have gotten quite a few up. Yeah, and we'll just randomly send some gift cards maybe to some people. Sounds good, All right, Well, we appreciate your support so much.

1:10:40 Until next time. A happy anniversary. Anniversary. I said it funny, It's okay, don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband, don't whack anyone. The need to back The