Cari Farver, Liz Golyar, and Dave Kroupa - Part 2

0:00 I am Rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, some days you'll feel like killing your husband, and some days you'll feel like killing your wife. Welcome to love, Mary Kill Hey Tina, Hey Rich, how are you. I'm a little sleepy. Yeah. When we'd have a two part episode, we you know, record one part and then yeah, every time I wore you out with part one a little bit. What people don't see behind the scenes is, well, people don't see behind the scenes, like how many times we have to stop? And it was a little bit of a slog a little longer than we anticipated. You look cozy though, You've got your blanket on, You've got your nice chair. You're like, look like you're all ready to be tucked in for the night. I kind of am. Yeah, I'm a little tired in its one six o'clock, five o'clock, five ten change.

1:07 I meant to mention in the last episode because now everyone's like time change. It was weeks ago. The time change this week really impacted me more than I thought it would. We think this many years in I would be used to it, but no, I really hard. I think, Yeah, and I was a little, a little grumpy with you for a few hours. We don't fight that often, but it was I don't know, I was a little a little bit, you're a little bit. I was a lot. But everything's good. We worked it out. We did. We did. Like funny, after this many years of marriage, it's like, what would it take for it to end? I mean, you know what I mean. It's just like, yeah, ran over the logo. I don't know. Yeah, I didn't in our last little disagreement. I did not even once think about leaving. It's like I'm in it, same same good dear, so happy Thanksgiving, happy things, Thanksgiving week, Happy Thanksgiving listeners. Oh is it really already? Geez? It's crazy. Yeah, I guess, I guess so. I'm just like, my mind is like blown because I know this. We're recording this and it won't come out for another week and a half. But I didn't realize Thanksgiving was that close.

2:29 Yeah. Well, I'm sure you've got your Christmas shopping wrapped up. Oh well, I had it done in September already. Cute Yeah, same, Well I haven't decorated the house yet, which it's so crazy looking at social media it's like ye, like I'm it's only what's today November tenth, Yeah, and you're way behind. I mean I've got behind because I don't I like to do it before the last few years, we've done it before Thanksgiving. But your birthday is coming up November thirtieth. Yeah, so it's weird. There's just a lot going on. But yeah, next week I'm planning and decorating before Thanksgiving, and then I think we're going to take a little mini trip for Thanksgiving. Yeah. I think we're going to go to Toronto.

3:10 Yeah, Canadian friends up north. Yeah, we're five hours away. Ish. If anyone is listening from Toronto and you have a little extra bedroom in your house, I'm joking. If you have recommendations though, places to go, things to do, we're always up for that. Yeah. So the last episode, we left off with a little bit of a cliffhanger Jim Harbaugh, Yeah, exactly in University of Michigan. Yeah, you've had, like, you know, twenty minutes to process it. How are you feeling? I am a little I'm still this whole scandal thing has been going on for a while, and I honestly haven't tracked it that closely. I do like, if what you said at the end of last episode is completely true, if Michigan was doing something shady like stealing signs, I do not condone it at all, even though I'm a big Michigan supporter. That's you know, not a good thing to do. But can I just interrupt for a second and explain, because when I initially saw stealing signs, I thought it meant like like the players were joking on each other and like go blue and somebody ext they were like going over to Lansing and stealing like you know, sides. But no, it means like a little different kind of sign right, like hand signals and things like that. Anyway, So what I was going to say though, is I am not well versed on this scandal at all, but what I did read during our little break made me a little angry because it does seem like there's like an ongoing investigation and it's not completed

4:43 yet, and yet they already decided they're going to suspend Jim Harbaugh for the rest of the season when they haven't even finished the investigation and Michigan is cooperating with the investigation. Seem a little defensive, but well, it just mads time to move on. I think we've spent way more time. Yes, we have tended. So we were talking about the Christmas season being upon us earlier, so I wanted to transition to bring up a great Christmas gift idea. No, I'm shaking my head. You still have You have two more days to buy any Love Mary Kill yeah t shirts or sweatshirts, So message me at Lovemary Kill at gmail dot com or social media if you have any questions, yeah, and we will have a link for them. We'll have a link to the web shop in our show notes and on Instagram. But the store closes forever on Tuesday at midnight, So I'm sorry if you're listening to this Wednesday or later. But yeah, we will probably do it again in the future if anyone has purchased anything the first time. And uh, maybe some more interesting designs in the future. Yeah, all right, enough business. Okay, Well we've got a snack as well, so yeah, I came for the snack. I'm here. Well, last time we had those lovely Bisco cheetos from our listeners. This time it's not anything that exciting.

6:00 And can I just I you were like you kept clearing at me because I was eating them the last episode, like you were like, you're going to eat all of them? And I did eat I did. They were just like they ran a melt and they were really yummy. Whenever we do a two part episode, I always forget about the snack for part two, and so I went out and grabbed lunch today and I was like, I got to go to the gas station and pick up a snack. So I just found something station I thought looked interesting. And it is a new a thing I haven't seen before, at least Touredo's. And it's called dynam Dynamita Dynamita Dynamita Chile lemon. And they're not like Chile limone. That is the the way it's supposed to be pronounced, I believe, But they're not like regular dourdo's. They're like rolled up in like a little probably copping off.

6:46 What are the other our sun eats that taco takeo takeito? Is it? No? I don't know, takis? Maybe? Oh is that it? Maybe? Yeah? I can hear people yelling at me through the radio, well, uh yeah, let's try these out. And bag bag of chips had it all right, we'll be right back. Do you think about those Dorito's dynam mita, they made my eyes water. They're really potent matter and my throat. They were lots spicier than you would think. I think there's a lot of flavor in a small, little rolled up Yeah, Ritilla, I think they're good, almost at a little too much. I think if you're a college student you would, or a high school student you would really be into them. Yeah. Yeah. It's the kind of thing like if you're really into like hot peppers and stuff, you would probably like them.

7:49 Yea. I think our sun will like them. Before we started recording, I grabbed two Clementines and I just wanted to say, clement the Clementines have been so good. Yeah, so far this season good. I know the content is scintillating, scintillating. All right, let's talk about the case of Carrie Farvar, Liz Gallier and Dave Krupa. That's not I think we should. I think people are going to want to know what happened. Okay, get so nervous when you say this recap. Okay, I'm going to try to do it quick because sometimes they go along too long, and I'm going to need your help because I was listening and I didn't take a ton of notes. Okay, So our main character is Liz. What's her last name, Gollier, Liz Gollier. Liz Gollier had a She had a tough time growing up. Her mom died when she was young, and she and her brother were put in foster care. I believe she was eventually adopted into a nicer family. She has she has some issues, like she's just not right.

8:48 Yeah, she has a couple of kids. Her kids are like ten and eleven. At the time of the story, she uh she wasn't with the father of her children very long, right, is that true? Okay? And she's obsessed with this fella named Dave Krupa, who is like a mechanic and obsessed might be putting it lightly. So poor Dave. Dave was with Amy. They had a long term relationship that they had a couple of kids. They were together for twelve years and they broke up. Dave was like, I am just gonna date, I'm going to have a good time and I'm not going to get serious with anyone. And then he met Liz and he was trying to keep it kind of mellow, but Liz is very intense, and she would send him like hundreds of text messages and emails and she wanted it to be become more serious, and then he would try to break up, and then she'd say, oh, I left my pants at your house, so I need to come and get my pants. And then they would have sex, and because Dave is weak, and then Dave was like, I've had enough, and then he started, I'm already going on too long. He met Carrie. Carrie seemed like a really nice, pretty young a lovely young woman. Actually, all of these people are in their thirties. They're all thirty somethings. And they had been dating for a couple of weeks. Carrie was hanging out at Dave's house and she disappeared. Yeah, but then she and then she no one ever talked to her again.

10:11 And then but she's sending all these horrible messages to Dave. She has a teenage son named Max, who she's been on for like six weeks at this point, and her mom is really concerned. And I actually know she at the point where she was gone for a year. Yeah, and Max is with Carrie's mom. Yeah, and you're gonna what else I mean there was. It wasn't just like harassing text messages. There was also things going on like bricks being thrown through Dave's window, cars, both Dave's and Liz's cars being keyed, and vandalism and yeah, just all kinds of horrible stuff. And it was mostly targeted at Dave and Liz. And it appeared that it was coming from Carrie. That's what Dave just assumed that it was from Carrie.

10:56 But we know it well. And Carrie was posting on her and she had posted a picture of an engagement ring, right, Yeah, that was weird. Yeah, it was like Carrie. It was almost like she was living this imaginary life where she and Dave are together, which wasn't the case. So yeah, all right, tell us more. All right, So we are now into twenty fourteen. So Carrie disappeared in November of twenty twelve, so we're now over a year has passed and the harassment has been going on, all these emails, all this stuff has been going on for over a year now. In January of twenty fourteen, Dave invited Heather, an old friend of his and sometimes girlfriend, to visit from Sioux Falls, South Dakota, where Dave was from. He had gone to high school there.

11:43 Heather came to visit. They ended up in Dave's bedroom and then they heard a rattling at his patio door, like someone was trying to open it. Heather was freaked out, but Dave was like, Ah, don't worry, it's just my stalker. This is just the way it is, okay. And then suddenly there was a sound of shadow in glass and they found a brick on the bathroom floor. Heather was freaking out by this point, but again Dave was surprisingly calm. He's just like, this is just how my life is. Well, and you had said we didn't talk about this, but Dave had kind of developed some bad habits. He was drinking too much, he'd gained a bunch of weight, and he was just under a lot of stress. I mean, he's getting like sixty emails and messages a day from this stalker. So he did end up calling the police. They came out, took a report, but there wasn't a whole lot else that they could do. Dave then told Heather about the whole situation, how he and this other woman, Liz, were being constantly harassed by this woman, Carrie, that he had only dated for two weeks over a year ago. Heather, who was much more perceptive than Dave, said, maybe this is Liz who threw the brick through the window. After all, If this Carrie is so obsessed with you, why hasn't she shown herself to you in over a year. And Dave was like, no, it couldn't be Liz. We've both received messages many times and we're together, and Liz is always terrified when it happens. Later in twenty fourteen, Dave took Liz with him on a trip to Sue Falls, a two and a half hour drive, to see some of his old friends and family. While there, they visited one of

13:16 Dave's oldest and best friends, a woman named Tay Andy Braver or Tay. Tay was married with two kids, and she had always been purely platonic friends with Dave. She had known him since he was in diapers, and she thought of him as a little brother. At the end of their visit, Tay, being polite, said to Liz, oh, you should come back and visit sometime. Just by that little nicety. She had no idea what she was getting herself into. Because. A few weeks later, she gets a call from Liz asking what are you doing this weekend? Tay said, not much, just hanging out, and before she knew it, Liz was at her doorstep with a suitcase, ready to stay the weekend. Liz seemed surprised that there was a house full of people. Tay's husband and kids were there, and her father in law was also staying with them. Liz seemed to think that it would be just her and Tay hanging out, having a girl's weekend together. Oh wow. Tay was very polite, probably too polite, inviting Liz into her home to stay for the weekend when she really barely knew her. At one point, Heather dropped by. So Heather was the one that had come to see Dave that he had known since high school.

14:22 She was also friends with Tay, and she was also the one that suggested to Dave that maybe Liz was the one who broke the window. But anyway, she showed up at Tay's house. Tay introduces her to Liz and Liz says, oh, Heather, Oh, you're the one who came to see Dave. He should have brought you to my place. When crazy Carrie threw the brick through the window. Heather was not buying into Liz's bullshit even a little bit. She said, I don't even know you, why would I stay at your house? Liz then asked what were you doing at Dave's and Heather said, you know, Dave and I have been friends with benefits for decades. I'll always be here. I was here before and I'll be here after. You You're just the Wednesday girl, referring to Dave's commitment to see Liz every Wednesday couch. And then Heather walked out, leaving Liz fuming.

15:09 The weekend got even weirder, though, Liz suggested to Tay that they should go visit Dave's parents, who lived nearby. Tay called Dave's mom to see if they could come by, which was surprising to Dave's mom because she didn't really know Tay that well and she didn't know Liz at all. But apparently everyone in Sue Falls, except maybe Heather, is polite to a fault, so she said, sure, come on over. After they got there, Liz went on and on about the stalker situation, worrying Dave's parents. They had already actually bought Dave a gun for protection, but Liz was like, he probably needs some more guns just to be safe. After they left Dave's parents home, Liz suggested they go out to dinner, so Tay and her husband took her to a Chinese place. After ordering, Liz got up to use the restroom and she didn't come back for a long time. Finally Tay went to check on her and she found her in the restroom on the phone with Dave having a heated argument, probably because Dave had no idea that Liz had gone to see his friend. Can you imagine. Finally Liz came back to the table and the dinner continued awkwardly, with Liz not saying a whole lot. And of course, when the bill came, there was no offer from Liz to chip in or pay for the tip or anything. But wait, it gets weirder still. As bedtime approached, it was awkward because there wasn't a spare bed at Tay's house because their father in law. Her father in law was staying with them. Tay's husband was on a different schedule because he had been working third shift and he was planning to stay up and play

16:41 video games, so Tay said that Liz was welcome to sleep with her in their queen sized bed. At one point during the night, Tay rolled over to find Liz with her eyes wide open, just staring at her. I mean me at all. Liz woke up at five am and she said I want to go home now, which was fine by Tay, who hadn't gotten any sleep at all. She thought that Liz was very odd but harmless. Liz left, but soon after she started calling and texting Tay regularly like they were BFFs. She invited Tay to come stay with her, but Tay always found an excuse. Coincidentally, Tay also started getting fifty to one hundred texts and emails from Carrie accusing her of being one of Dave's whores. Where is Liz living at this point? Is she still living with Todd? Yeah?

17:33 Yeah, she's living with Todd. Overall, twenty fourteen was very similar to twenty thirteen. The onslaught of messages continued targeted at Dave, Liz, Dave's ex Amy, and any woman that Dave dated. Nancy would occasionally get messages allegedly from Carrie that seemed designed to get her hopes up only to be dashed again. There was no progress in the police investigation and no closure for Carrie's family. So now it's twenty fifteen, more than two years have passed since Carrie's disappearance. The harassment and the stalking continued, but finally there was progress in the investigation. Why didn't Dave change his phone number? He did many times, multiple times. Oh okay, yeah, and miraculously, miraculously, this crazy Carrie somehow found his new number every time. So in the investigation, these two detectives from the Pottawatamee County Police Department in Iowa, Jim Dody and Ryan Avis, they had heard some water cooler talk about the Carrie Farver missing persons and the harassment case, and they were intrigued, and so they asked if they could be assigned to the case. The deputy who had been in charge of the investigation was more than happy to get this one off his desk, and so he turned over the files. Avis and Dody started with the very basic fact that there were two possibilities. Either Carrie was alive and she was respond for all the harassment, or she was dead and therefore someone

19:03 else was doing the harassing. So they split the investigation in two. Avis investigated on the assumption that Carrie was alive and Dodie approached it assuming that Carrie was dead. Avis quickly came to the conclusion that it was highly unlikely that Carrie was still alive. No one had seen her for two and a half years, her bank account and her credit cards hadn't been touched, her car was abandoned, and if that was the case, if she wasn't alive, then who would have the motive to not only kill Carrie but also make it appear that she was still alive and to do this for going on three years. They took another close look at Dave Krupa, but it just didn't fit.

19:47 Dave had been super cooperative and they just didn't think that he had anything to do with this. However, they did notice that Liz's name seemed to come up a lot when they looked back at the text that care Cary had sent to her supervisor resigning and saying that she was moving to Kansas for a new job. This was sent three days after Carrie disappeared. They found it interesting that the text actually mentioned Liz or Shanna as her real name is the text said, I won't be coming back. I'm taking a job in Kansas. Sorry for the short notice. I am sending someone out to you to fill the position. Her name is Shanna Gallier. What so Carrie, who is a software developer, she resigns and recommends a woman who has no background at all in programming. Yeah, it was ludicrous. Liz actually did fill out an application at West Corporation around that time, and she listed Carrie Farverr as a reference, but she obviously didn't have any qualifications for the job and so she wasn't even considered for it. So you may not remember this, but detectives downloaded the data from both Liz and Dave's phones way back in early twenty thirteen when all the harassments started, so that they could sift through all of the threatening emails that they were both getting from Carrie. So now detectives Avis and Dody started looking more closely at Liz. They revisited the data that they had downloaded from her phone. They saw the dynamics of Dave and Liz's relationship, and they noticed that Liz seemed very obsessive, very possessive, jealous.

21:22 They also went back to the photo of the check that Carrie had supposedly sent to her mom, saying that she had sold her furniture to Liz. According to Liz, Carrie had stolen her checkbook, but no one had actually bothered to check the signature on the check to see if it matched Liz's. Sure enough, it did. Digging deeper, they saw that Liz had made six calls to Carrie Farver's home phone about one week before Carrie's disappearance, and that she had entered Star sixty seven before each of these calls to block caller ID. They also found a photo on Liz's phone of Carrie's forward Explorer. The photo was taken on Christmas Eve of twenty twelve, when her car was officially missing, two weeks before it mysteriously appeared in the parking lot of Dave's apartment. All right, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.

22:19 So they were now starting to narrow in on Liz, but everything they had was very circumstantial. The detectives remembered that there had been an unidentified fingerprint found on a mint container in Carrie's car. They compared them to Liz's prince. I'm not sure how they had Liz's prince, but they were able to compare them and sure enough it was a match. Again, a great piece of evidence, but very circumstantial. After all, Dave had probably been in Carrie's car, maybe he put the mint container there and Liz had touched it sometime before. The detectives continued gathering evidence through the rest of twenty fifteen. In the meantime, Todd got fed up with Liz and asked her to move out of his house. She refused, saying she couldn't afford a place on her own. Dave also finally had enough of Liz. They were supposed to spend Thanksgiving me I know right. They were supposed to spend Thanksgiving Day of twenty fifteen together, but Dave got an urgent call from Amy that morning.

23:21 So Amy actually had a new baby who was a year and a half old. I'm not sure who the baby's father was, but I don't think he was in the picture. Her baby was sick and had spiked a fever of one hundred and three and was having trouble breathing. There had been a blizzard and Amy was afraid of driving to the hospital, so she called Dave to see if he would drive them. Even though this wasn't Dave's baby, he was happy to help. Liz was just beside herself that Dave would cancel their plans to go help his ex, and he was disgusted by how selfish she was and told her that it was over, this time for good. Soon after that, Dave woke to find his phone blowing up. Every woman in his phone's contact list was mad at him. During the night, they had all received rude, crude texts from Dave, and they were all texting him to demand an explanation. Now, Dave was a notoriously heavy sleeper, and he realized that whoever sent the texts he still assumed it was Carrie, must have snuck into his bedroom, picked up his phone from his bedside table, and sent all those texts from his apartment while he was sleeping. Oh that's scary, I know. Shortly after that, he also noticed that his gun was missing from the closet where he kept it. By December, detectives Dodie and Ryan were sure that Liz was responsible for Carrie's disappearance and all of the harassment that came after it, but they still had no real evidence that would hold up at trial. They wanted to talk to Liz, but they had to be really careful. They didn't want to tip her off that they were

24:51 on to her. So imagine their surprise when they saw Liz walking down the hallway at the Sheriff's office on December fourth of twenty fifteen. They had studied her for months, but they had never seen her in person. They later said that it was like spotting a celebrity. It turned out that Liz had come in to file a harassment report against Amy Flora Dave's X after Are You Dubious? Yeah? After Detective Avis found out why Liz was there, he thought fast and he ran out to the parking lot before she left, and he told her that he had been assigned to her case, and he asked if he could come back to her house and take the report. She told him that Amy was the ex of Dave Kroupa, a guy she had been seeing, and that Amy was stalking her on Facebook, and that she was worried because Dave's gun had been stolen and she suspected it was Amy. Officer Avis played dumb like he didn't know anything about Dave Croupa or anything else.

25:49 I heard a little clip of this on one of the shows I watched. It was kind of funny because he's like, Dave Cooper, how's that spelled? And she's like, no, it's Krupa. He was just completely like playing dumb. He asked if he could get a download of her phone's contents so that he could look over all the texts that she had claimed to have come from Amy, and Liz agreed. Avis gave Liz his phone number and he said, call me anytime if anything else happens. So, when you turn in your phone to the police to have them download your data, there are two approaches they can take. The first, which is what they did the first time they had Liz's phone nearly three years earlier, is just a simple download of all the files, the texts, the emails, and so on. The more thorough download, though, which they did this time, is basically making a full physical duplication of everything in the phone's storage and memory.

26:41 That would allow them to not only look at Liz's files, her photos, her emails, and texts, but it would also allow them to recover data that had been deleted. M I just think it's so funny that Liz called the police saying she's stalking on Facebook, like, oh no, you're being stucked a Facebook. I know it's it's just silly. It is silly, but I think, you know, the main thing was that Dave's gun was stolen, so she was worried, like but she was obviously trying to build up this whole thing like Amy was out toget her right. So the next evening, after that conversation with the police, on December fifth, of twenty fifteen, Liz told Todd that she was going to Walmart. Todd was surprised because she never told him where she was going, and besides, he really didn't care where she went. He just wanted her out. But instead of going to Walmart, Liz went to Big Lake Park in Council Bluffs, which is a one hundred and ninety one acre park known for its lakes, and it's also known as being the site of an alleged UFO crash in nineteen seventy seven. Liz wasn't there to search for UFOs, though she later said that she went there to do some thinking. But instead of a peaceful, contemplative evening, Liz called nine one one at six forty one pm, saying, I've been shot in the leg. The person who shot her Amy Flora.

28:03 Liz said I know. Liz said that Amy had come up to her and said, so you like fucking Dave, and then she shot her and ran away. Paramedics arrived to find Liz had been shot through the thigh and her pant leg was soaked with blood. They took her to the hospital while police searched the park. They brought in a helicopter with a searchlight and an infrared heat detector, but all they found were a couple of homeless people camped out in the park. Meanwhile, Amy was sitting on her couch playing games on her iPad when a pounding came at her door. Open up police. She opened the door to three officers, guns drawn and pointed at her. She was terrified and she burst into tears. They questioned her, and they believed her story that she had been sitting on her couch playing games on the iPad for the last hour or so while her baby was sleeping. They checked her car. They found that the engine was cold, confirming that she hadn't driven anywhere in it recently. To be certain, though, they asked her to come in and take a lie detector test, which she readily agreed to.

29:04 The problem was, though Amy failed the polygraph test, this isn't actually too surprising, as the false positive rate, that is, the percentage of time when an honest person is incorrectly found to be lying, is somewhere around twenty percent. Detectives, I would think it would be higher. I mean, twenty percent is that's quite a bit, right. It kind of makes you wonder how I know polygraph tests aren't admissible in court, and I think that's the reason why I keep saying this, But we need we need to break that down and do an episode on it, because it is really interesting to me that it's used so often yet so unreliable. Yeah, Detectives Dodie and Avis, they were pretty sure from early on that Liz had shot herself in the leg, which is a dangerous thing to do. I know, it's a you're for moral artery. You could bleed out, yeah, exactly.

29:55 Liz called Todd from the hospital to tell her that she had been shot, and she asked him to come visit her and bring her some things from her basement. While Todd was down there looking for the things that she had asked for he found his laptop under her bed, which was oh, stolen. Yeah, it had been stolen, and as I mentioned before, Todd kept very meticulous records of all the serial numbers, and so he was able to check and verify that this was actually his laptop. I think when he later kind of confronted Liz about it, she acted like she bought it at a pawn shop and she was like, oh, I guess my bad. Did she give it back? Whoa crazy? So fortunately for Liz, the bullet passed through her thigh, missed the bone, it missed any major arteries, and she was released from the hospital a couple days later. While all this was happening, detectives were diving into the contents of Liz's phone. They found that she had been using an app called Textee, which allows you to schedule messages to be sent. They were able to recover all the deleted data, and they found that she had sent thousands of texts from dozens of email accounts purporting to be carries. They had so many messages that they had to build a database to allow them to query and find relevant messages. In all, there were more than twenty thousand emails and text messages. The evidence was growing, but it was still all circumstantial. They had no body, they had where is Carrie, no crime scene, they had no murder weapon.

31:27 They needed more, and so they decided to try to trick Liz into giving them more. They called her in and they said they were working on building a case against Amy for her shooting. They said, you know this needs to stay in this room, but we're also wondering if maybe Amy had something to do with Carrie's disappearance. I'm sure Liz was super excited to hear that, so excited, but they told Liz they really needed evidence. Though. Miraculously, four days later, some evidence fell into Liz's lap. She received an email supposedly from Amy with the subject line, I shot you mean man.

32:09 Imagine the luck of the police getting that evidence. The body of the email explained that Amy shot Liz to keep her away from Dave. It couldn't be much more clear. Liz passed it along to the police and they said, well, that's great, but I really wish we could connect Amy to Carrie's disappearance. They told Liz that they had found some remains that they believed to be carried, but they didn't provide any more details than that, So you're not going to believe what happened. Just a couple of days later, I cannot happen Liz got an email from Amy confessing to killing Carrie. I mean, come on, Liz, it's amazing that she got away with this for so long because I don't think she is actually very bright. It's bananas.

33:02 So the email that she got from allegedly from Amy confessing to killing Carrie, it was a long, rambling email, but I'm going to have you read a couple of parts of it, if that's okay with you. Sure. When I met crazy Carrie, she would not stop talking about Dave and him being her husband. She tried to attack me, but I attacked her with a knife. I stamped her three to four times in the stomach area. I then took her out and burned her. I stuffed her body in a garbage can with crap. She was carried out to the dumpster, probably when Dave took my garbage out for me. So be glad I did not do that to you, Liz. I will never admit to Dave or police, no one. Maybe I'm drunk now and just telling lies to you.

33:47 Dave will always take care of me and protect me, so I will never go to jail. When I followed you that night i shot you, I left my baby home because he was sleeping, made sure I called Dave and text him for my alibi, so you can never prove it was me. Brilliants. Amy again in quotes, also admitted to setting up fake email accounts that looked like Carrie's, and she also confessed to setting the fire in Liz's house. Again, it's just so convenient that Amy offered up all these confessions to Liz right at the time that the police were looking into Amy. Right, She's nuts. There are a couple of clips on the Dateline episode about this case where the police are talking to Liz and it's it really is funny because they're like, boy, if we only had some evidence from Amy saying these things, that would be like gold to us. And then Liz comes back a couple days later with exactly what they were asking for. While they knew it wasn't really Amy saying these things, detectives believed that Liz was actually giving them some true details about Carrie's murder. They believed that she was stabbed and that her body was probably burned. Liz had a burn barrel in the back yard of the house that she lived in at the time, but it was long gone, along with any evidence that might have been there. They believed that Carrie's murder probably happened in her Ford Explorer. They had searched it twice before, but they didn't do a thorough search because they didn't have evidence that a murder had taken place in the car. By now, the car

35:19 had been sold, but they tracked it down and the owner agreed to let them search it. This time. They took out the front seats and they took the seat covers off. The driver's side seat was clean, but the passenger seat had a large red stain on the foam under the seat cover. It was clear that someone had bled profusely in the passenger seat. They did DNA testing on the blood found in the car and it was a definitive match to Carrie's. While I'm sorry, was she shot? I think they believe she was stabbed. I mean that was what Amy allegedly said in the email, that she stabbed her three to four times. Oh wow. While the investigators had Warren Liz to secrecy about building a case against Amy. They knew that she would eventually blab about it to Dave Krupa. She did, and Dave called the investigators up in January of twenty sixteen. They couldn't come right out and say it, but they strongly implied that they actually believed that Liz was behind it all and that Dave should avoid her like the plague. Dave's had must have exploded because he had been with Liz for the past three years, and he never once doubted that it was Carrie who was harassing them both.

36:30 I can't believe he was with her for that long. I know's it really is insane. They also implied that Amy might be in danger and that Dave might want to consider moving in with her for her protection. When Dave told Amy what the police had told him about Liz, she said what any good spouse or ex spouse would say. What do you think? She said? I told you so yeah. Oh he had that coming. He did totally, totally. I think I would wake up every day for the rest of my life to text him, I told you so yeah. Suggesting that Dave might want to move back in with Amy was another ploy by the detectives. Knowing that it would enrage Liz, and it worked. She called Detective Dody crying, it looks like the only person that benefited was her. So she gets to shoot somebody, and then she gets to kill another person, and then she gets to move in with Dave and she gets to be free, and you guys aren't arresting her. I just I can't. I'm insane, completely insane. I just don't under like. Some people are so crazy and unhinged. I mean, yeah, they believe, they believe the bs that's coming out of their mouths. Yeah, it's just to do what she did for I mean, to kill somebody, obviously, that's insane, But to then follow that with three years to do that to carries Mond and her

38:02 son, I know, it's sick, completely sick. I hope she is away for a long, long, long long time. Well we'll find out in a minute. But first of all, the police after she called them, they were like, you know, I know, it just takes time to build a case, and you know, but Liz had no idea that the case that they were building was actually targeted at her. On February twenty fifth, twenty sixteen, investigators were granted a search warrant for Liz's apartment. She had finally moved out of Todd's place when he paid for her to rent a U Haul, and he also paid for her first month's rent and security deposit for her new place. He just wanted to get And what about her kids? Are kids with her? I think so? Yeah? Yeah, those poor kids. Yeah. They the police waited until she was at work so as not to give her a chance to delete any of any digital evidence that might exist, And then they went in and they collected a bunch of stuff, including a camera and a camcorder that they were able to confirm had actually belonged to Carrie. They arrested Liz that afternoon, but not on murder charges. She had an outstanding traffic citation, so, as police often do, they use that as an excuse to bring her in and try to get her to talk. They started telling her about all the evidence they had, but she denied it all and soon asked for an attorney, who took care of the traffic citation and got her released. It would be another ten months before they arrested Liz for the murder of Carrie Farvar, four years after her

39:36 disappearance. Investigators had brought the case to the DA, who was skeptical of their ability to successfully prosecute Liz without a body or a murder weapon. They didn't even know where Liz had killed Carrie, which would be a challenge because if they prosecuted her in Douglas County, which is where Omaha was located, but the jury wasn't convinced that that's where the crime took place, then they would have to quitter. But finally the prosecutor became convinced that Liz was guilty and that they had as much evidence as they were going to get, and so they agreed to move forward, and Liz was finally arrested for Liz's or for Carrie's murder, on December twenty second, twenty sixteen, over four long years after Carrie's disappearance. A big break came. While they were preparing the case, they asked Dave Krupa whether there was any electronic devices that they might have missed. Dave suddenly remembered that there was a tablet of Liz's in storage that he had completely forgotten about, so he went there and got it for them. The tablet had an SD card in it, that must have been in Liz's phone at some point, because on it they found a whole bunch of photos. One photo they found showed a foot with a tattoo on it.

40:51 They were able to get a photo from Carrie's mom. You're laughing because of the well we end with that. I'm sorry not laughing at no. I know it's actually a pretty funny story. But let me finish this and then we'll talk about that. Yeah, So they found it photo of a foot with a tattoo on it. They were able to get a photo from Carrie's mom that showed the tattoo was a match for a tattoo that Carrie had on her foot, and when they shared the photo with a forensic pathologist, she concluded that the foot shown in the photo was in a state of decay. That's because when a body starts to decay, the skin begins to slough off and become discolored, but the skin where the tattoo is does not sluff off in the same way, and so the pathologists could tell because of the difference in the skin near the tattoo compared to the surrounding skin that the foot was in a state of decay. But she was unable to estimate how long the person had been dead when the photo was taken. The trial began in May of twenty seventeen. Liz's lawyer opted for a bench trial instead of a jury trial because he knew that all of the circumstantial evidence, that thousands of texts and emails, all of the harassment, all the stocking, and so on, would make the jury believe that Liz was a psycho, even if that evidence didn't directly connect her to Carrie's murder. Liz's defense was basically that all of the evidence was just supposition and innuendo. Sure, Liz was a

42:22 bad person for intimidating and harassing innocent people, but that didn't make her a murderer. Was there even a murder? Where was the body? How did Carrie die? Where did she die? The prosecution didn't have direct evidence that spoke to any of those things. The state called thirty two witnesses to make their case. Liz's attorney didn't call any witnesses in her defense. In the end, though, it was enough to convince the judge. He delivered his verdict on May twenty fourth, guilty of first degree murder and second degree arson. Soon after she was convicted, Liz called her lawyer and said, I want to take the plea deal. First of all, no plea deal had actually been offered. There had been some discussion of a plea deal if Liz would lead them to carry his remains, but nothing was formally offered. Second of all, the time for a plea agreement, as I think you probably know, is before you're convicted of murder, not after. Apparently Liz was not well versed on the law. Liz was sentenced to life in prison for the murder and eighteen to twenty years for the arson, which the two sentences were set to run consecutively. So even if Liz somehow managed to get the life sentence reversed on appeal, she would still have the eighteen to twenty years for arson. That sounds about right, I'd say, so, all right, we're almost done. I just have a few notes about what's happened since Liz got convicted. Liz did file an appeal, saying that her counsel had

43:53 failed her by advising her to waive a jury trial, among other things. It was denied. She still maintains her innocence. Carrie's son Maxwell Farvar finished high school and followed in his mom's footsteps by studying software engineering and data science at Iowa State University. He's now working as a software engineer at a financial services firm in Minnesota. Nancy and Mark Rainey, Carrie's mom and stepdad, have remained close with the detectives who finally broke the case open. Nancy says that they are like sons to her. Detectives Dodie and Avis, along with Deputy Anthony Cava, who I didn't mention, but he worked for the Pottawatame County IT Department and he did a ton of work on his own time to sift through all the digital evidence. The three of them established a scholarship fund in Carrie's name. The Carrie Farvar Memorial Scholarship supports Iowa Western Community College students who are pursuing careers in information technology. Very nice, Dave and Amy continue to cooperate in raising the kids together, although they have no plans to get back together. Dave feels tremendous guilt over what happened to Carrie, although Nancy doesn't blame him, She says, quote he was pretty much in the wrong place at the wrong time like Carrie was, and she also says that Carrie wouldn't want his feelings of guilt to hold him back in life. For his part, Dave committed that he would cooperate with any TV show that wanted to cover Carrie's murder as long as Nancy had agreed to participate as well, to

45:27 keep her memory alive. Carrie's remains have never been found wherever she is. I hope you rest in peace, Carrie. That's devastating, it's yeah, it's really incredibly sad. Yeah, we'll rest in peace, Carrie. And I hope her son is doing well. And I hope that Liz's kids are okay, you know her parents first, right, Yeah, And I just can't help but always worry about the kids in these stories. Yeah, for sure. I mean there's definitely some silly things in the story that made us laugh. But it's really tragic that Carrie seemed like a really lovely person. Yeah, And I mean, Dave, I'm sorry he made some really bad decisions. So I hope he's doing well too. Yeah, I hope so too. Yeah, I agree with you about Liz's kids. I don't I don't know anything about them or where they're at now or what happened to them or anything like that. But yeah, I can only imagine like they're it's hard to grow up with, you know, an unreliable and we talk a lot about bad people, but I think Liz bad person, but mentally ill.

46:29 Yeah, like those her responses just weren't normal, right. It doesn't excuse anything that she did, but I think she was obviously ill. But she was obviously ill, so I should give a mention of the main source for this case was a book called A Tangled Web, which is by Leslie Rule. The name may sound familiar because Anne Rule, who is like the Queen of true crime. Leslie is her daughter, and this is the first book and I think, to date the only book that she's really I thought she's written more. It's the only one that is listed on her website. Maybe yeah, so hopefully she'll write more because it was really well done, well researched, well written, and everything. Well you did it a fabulous job retelling the story, so good job to you. Thank you. I have not read an Ann Rule book. I started one once and then I think I had to put it aside. But I really do want to read one. Of her books, because I know she is the Queen of true crime. Yeah, Ted Bundy book is supposed to be right. I think she knew I didn't read that, but I think she knew him. I knew him. Yeah. So I want to go back to something that you you laughed at earlier. It was inappropriate laughter. I'm sorry, yeah it was, but it was the reason for your laughter was it was actually really funny yesterday. So you laughed when I was talking about they found the photo of the foot tattoo, and you and I and our daughter were texting each other, and at the same time, I was looking for photos for this case to download, and I found a photo of the foot tattoo that will post and I downloaded it and I went to name the file, but I accidentally typed in our text exchange, and what did I think? I just

48:00 type foot tattoo. I think we were talking about dinner or something, and I just messaged tattoo and I was like, you have some explaining to do, sir, Like what is going on? Why are you googling foot tattoos? Which is highly disturbing to It made me laugh so hard. After I did that, I just sent a message to or did you just develop this case just because the story is all just because you had to cover your foot tattoo googling shady shady. So Thanksgiving is upon us. What are you grateful for? I am grateful for so many. That wasn't a leading question.

48:44 I mean, I'm grateful for a lot. I'm grateful for you, grateful for our family, I'm grateful for our listeners, our podcast. I mean, yeah, we have we have a lot of we have a lot to be grateful for. We do, we do. Grateful for everybody listening right now. I think a lot of people probably fell asleep and dropped off. I hope you, our listeners, have a great holiday, and like rich said, we are very grateful for you. What do you want Santa to bring you? I don't know. I don't there's nothing, nothing I need more five star reviews. Oh that would be nice if Santa did that.

49:25 Can you imagine getting a review from Santa? That would be pretty cool. That would be pretty cool. All right, what do you want Santa to bring you? My cup is full, my cup run is over. I'm good. Yeah, I feel too. Yeah. I think the older we get we just charitable contributions really are nice. Yeah, and we are so grateful to be able to. We've been doing that with our podcast a little bit and it's really it feels really good to give back a little. Okay, And if you're listening on Monday or Tuesday, you have a little bit of time to purchase still Love Mary Kill t shirt or sweatshirt or hoodie. If you can rate, review or follow us, we would greatly appreciate it.

50:07 Oh, hey, make chocolate a clear cake everyone, that's that's our Thanksgiving recipe. It's a tradition. It's really special and important because your mom used to make it and she is no longer with us. It's a great recipe, really simple, it's super simple. Everyone loves it. The only you have to make it at least like probably twelve hours before you eat it because the have to soak up some of the pudding. Yeah, I'll repost that recipe. Yeah, it's really good. Definitely recommend it right until next time. Happy Thanksgiving, Happy Thanksgiving. And don't kill your wife. Don't get to write down the serial numbers for all your electros. Yes, good practice. Don't kill your husband. To back the