Carmela and David Knight

0:00 Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina. If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage. It's that some days you'll feel like killing your husband. And some days you'll feel like killing your wife. Welcome to love, Mary Kill. Hey Tina, he rich? How are you to think? Great? How are you? I am doing really good. It is a busy time for us and for a lot of people. We're recording this on Saturday, November twenty second. Most of you will hear this on December first. I made a list of all the things that we've got coming up between now and then by the time people hear this. So, my lovely sister and her husband are currently winging their way from California to Michigan. Are probably over Kansas right now.

0:55 Yeah, super excited to see them. Yeah, that'd be great. Our son will be coming home from college. He may be on his way home now, I don't know, but he will be. Our daughter will be coming home for a little bit. Well, has had a very nice Thanksgiving. I'm sure my birthday will have come and gone. Oh my gosh, you on your birthday? You did stop talking about it. It's very It's the most important day. Where can listeners send cash and. Yus Patreon dot com, slash love Mary Kill. That would be the best birthday give. But also the Lions will have won two games between now and then, including Thanksgiving against the Packers. Michigan will have won two games since then, including shocking the world, upsetting number one ranked Ohio State.

1:39 It's oh is it almost at the end of the season. It's the weekend of my birthday. Comes back to my birthday, doesn't. Yeah, it really doesn't make a little sad whenever Michigan season didn't. Really it won't be over over because there will be Bowl games. Really number one, Yeah, they're number one. Wow. Yeah, when you've probably already finished your Christmas shopping, you forgot about that because you're so good at being on top of that. On my list, because I'm already done, right exactly. Yes, Well, I'm not really planning to do a lot in the next week, although it is Black Friday, I think in there somewhere, Yeah. I know a lot of people hate Black Friday, but it's hard not to take advantage of some of those deals. A lot of places, though, are starting their Black Friday shop and we're still calling a Black Friday, but saying these are our lowest Black Friday prices, which is really good to see.

2:28 Yeah, that's helpful. Well, we hope that all of you who celebrate Thanksgiving had a really lovely time with family and friends. I think our international listeners that don't celebrate Thanksgiving are intrigued by Thanksgiving and how we celebrate and what we So hopefully I remember to post a picture of what we cooked. Yeah, and hopefully the cherry chip cake came and we ate it and it was amazing. Thank you so much to everyone that reached out with tips on where to find cherry chip cake. As far as I know, only one person saw it in a door, but other than that, it's available on eBay and Walmart dot com and I think Amazon dot com. But it's all from the same cellar this uh yeah, Canada grocery store.

3:11 Yeah. It's funny how like things we talk about, you never know what's going to really capture people's imagination. And we've gotten so many notes about the cherry tipcake. Yeah, which is really nice because everyone wants you to have it. I know I appreciate it. As of today, it has not come and it has not shipped, so I'm not. Too optimistic, but I'm counting on you. I know, no pressure. I could just drive to Canada. Yeah that's true, all right. I am a little angry with you about a couple of things though. I wanted to bring up on the. Air, a couple of things on the R. No, it's it's the same thing. But I sent you two memes a few days ago that were really funny, and you haven't posted them on our social media. And whenever I send you a meme that I think is funny, you always look at it and say, ah, that I don't think it's that funny.

4:00 So what you don't realize because I don't think you spend quite as much time on social media. A lot of times it's something that I have posted before, and I try not to repost things unless it's like, really funny. So one of them was something that I had posted before. Okay, And sometimes they're a little hackneyed, and again. That's just my sense of humor. I guess hackneyed. Yeah, I know, we know, we all know. Did you bring a snack for me today? I haven't eaten yet. Changing that I did, I worked really well. Oh wait, I'm sorry if you have other things that the laundry that you want to air. I'm sure there are many things that you could. I said two things, but it was just that I sent two memes, that's all. It was really the same thing. But well, I will post them if I can remember.

4:42 I'll post them this week, and I'll I always want to tell people because I think it's cute the things you send me. Sometimes, like a lot of times, I will say, Rich told me to post this. What do you think? Yeah, sometimes it's like making fun of the wife, which is fair. Sure, Yeah, yeah, well I did. I worked really hard on these snacks today, got you some rieses filled pretzels that. I saved my appetite for that. And I brought you some Sanders sugar cookie white chocolate sea salt caramels. Ysh, Where do you find the time, Rich to do all this? Chopper? You bought both of these. Yes, you went out and bought some things, and I have run out of time. But I think these both look interesting. I think they're we're.

5:23 Having Thanksgiving and our son is coming home. I did buy more streets and there's a lot of snacks in the cupboard. Yeah. I don't know if you've noticed. Yeah, but we are in generally trying, generally trying to eat healthier. But yeah, I am intrigued by the Reeses filled pretzels because anything reese Is I generally like, so I'm looking forward to trying those. And Sanders make some great caramels. I've never had this particular white chocolate sugar cookie kind, but. The Sanders dark chocolate sea salt caramels are my favorite. Yeah, They're really good. Let's give these a try. What did you think about the Reeses filled pretzels and the Sanders sugar cookie white chocolate caramels.

6:07 Well, full disclosure, I bought the Riese's pretzels yesterday from Costco, and I always have to have I don't know if everyone does this, but I always have to rip open a bag on my way home. Of course, I didn't eat lunch, so I was really hungry. I like them a lot. The peanut butter is the Reese's peanut butter, so I thought they were a little sweet. But the pretzels I think are perfection. I like them, but I thought they were a little weird. Maybe it's the sweetness of the peanut butter. But I'm also to me Reese's. It indicates chocolate and peanut butter together, so the fact that it's just peanut butter is a little bit weird to me. I thought for a peanut butter pretzel, they're pretty good because there's a lot of varieties of those on the market, a lot of people are making them. The peanut butter was a little sweetly, yeah, but I thought they were I would give them probably a seven and a half out of ten.

6:53 I'll give them a six and a half out of ten. Oh, Okay. The caramels I didn't really love because I like the chocolate ones so much. I would give them like a six out of ten. I definitely like the dark chocolate ones better. The white chocolate's a little bit or kind of sickly sweet sort of thing, but I'd give them seven out of ten. It's still very good. Yeah. This time of year, we're all thinking about Christmas and gifts. Sanders is a great Michigan based company that we love to support. S A N d Ers dot com. They have a lot of great gift ideas. Absolutely so when I'm researching the case, one of the things that I find most fascinating is when investigators have to get creative, you know, like situations where the police are convinced that they know who committed the crime, but they can't prove it, like they don't have the evidence to prove it, and so they start thinking outside of the box and doing very creative things, which can be brilliant, but it can also kind of cross a line between you know, ethics and legally uncertain areas. So this case features some of the most unusual, clever and maybe controversial police tactics that I've seen. So as you listen, I'll be curious to hear what you think whether investigators stayed on the right side of that line or did they go too far. It was a rainy Monday evening September fifteenth, twenty fourteen, in Pickering, a quiet lakeside suburb just outside of Toronto, when the first nine to one to one call came in at seven fifty pm. Flames were pouring from a two story home on Pebblestone Crescent. Inside that house lived thirty nine year old Carmela Knight, her husband David,

8:23 and their two young sons. When the fire trucks arrived, neighbors ran outside in disbelief. Friends called Carmela's number again and again, but got no answer. Carmela's mom, Franka, heard about the fire and rushed over to find fire still licking the roof of the garage. The garage door stood open. She rushed toward it, just far enough to glimpse what looked like a body on the floor before police stopped her. Minutes later, Carmela's sister Nancy pulled up, desperate for answers. She tried calling David over and over, but he didn't pick up either. Eventually, Franka and Nancy learned that David and the boys were safe. They had been at hockey practice. Relief washed over them for a brief moment until they heard the rest firefighters had found a body inside the garage.

9:11 It would take a couple of days to confirm the identity, but deep down, Franka, Nancy, and Carmela's friends already knew, and it didn't take long before they and investigators began to suspect David Knight had something to do with Carmela's death, but David had an airtight alibi. Getting to the truth would require months of persistence, creativity, and luck, and even then, there was no guarantee that justice would be served with. Seven fifty pm when the nine to one to one call comes in. Is it typical that David and the boys would be gone at this time? You said they were at hockey practice. Yeah, it was a normal thing, out of the ordinary, not out of the ordinary. And do you know how old the boys are?

9:51 They were ten and twelve at this point. People who knew Carmela Augusta in college said that she was a sweetheart, completely genuine, with a heart of gold. If you met her, you instantly felt like friends. She loved to laugh and have fun, but even in her early twenties she knew what she wanted to get married and start a family. One night, when she was twenty three, she met the man who would help make her dream come true, David Knight. They met at a nightclub and hit her off right away. The next day, David sent her flowers to say how happy he was to have met her. Carmela was impressed. It wasn't often a guy sent flowers before the first date. It didn't take long for them to realize that they wanted to build a life together. They got engaged on Christmas Day and were married in a big Italian wedding in two thousand. A couple of years later, Carmela gave birth to a baby boy, and then a couple years after that, another boy. She was overjoyed. They eventually bought a beautiful four bedroom home in a quiet Pickering neighborhood just east of Toronto. David worked as a project manager in construction and did well together with Carmela's mother Franka.

10:59 They even bought of a home in Indian Rocks Beach, Florida, a spot that they rented out when they weren't there themselves. As the boys grew they were active, riding dirt bikes and playing hockey. Carmela became the quintessential Canadian hockey mom, supportive, proud, always cheering from the stands. Life was good, or at least it seemed that way. What percentage of young Canadians do you think grow up on the ice playing hockey? Oh, gosh, I would have to imagine it would be like eighty percent. Yeah, hockey here because we're so close to Canadaeah is very popular too. It wasn't big when I grew up, and now it's yeah, it does seem to be really popular here. In twenty twelve, twelve years into their marriage, while staying at the family's vacation home in Florida, David Knight met a woman named Jill Hartman at a bar in Saint Petersburg. He told her he was divorced, and the two began a relationship.

11:51 It didn't take long for Carmela to sense that something was wrong. David started acting differently, working late, going out more, taking more frequent work trips, and getting strange phone calls. I'm not sure if David went to It sounds like he went to Florida often on his own, and I'm not sure if there was a business reason for that. He was in construction. I think he may have been looking at starting a business in Florida. And it seems out of here in Toronto to go work on a job in Florida. It's I think they had maybe they had some connections there or something, but it seemed like Florida was a regular destination for him. When Carmela confronted him, David eventually broke down and admitted that he had been having an affair.

12:36 He seemed genuinely remorseful, promising to end it and agreeing to attend marriage counseling. Carmela had even started drafting a separation agreement, but decided to give him another chance. For a while, it looked like he might actually be trying. Then, in June twenty fourteen, Carmela found a thumb drive in David's car. When she plugged it into her computer. What she saw left her stunned. Nude and suggestive photos of a woman, including one of David kissing her on the cheek. It turned out the affair hadn't ended after all. That was it. Carmela told David she was filing for divorce. He begged her for another chance, but she refused. In anger, he smashed their wedding photo. While Carmela was hoping for an amicable split, things quickly turned ugly. David started telling other hockey parents that Carmela was staying out late, taking drugs, gambling, and seeing another man. Her friends knew that every word of that was a lie. When Carmela's mother, Franka, learned the divorce was coming, she confronted David about the vacation home in Florida. She Carmela and David had all contributed to buying it in twenty eleven, but when Franka checked the title, only David's name was listed. No way, somehow hers and Carmela's names had been removed before the title had been registered. I think when they filled out the whatever paperwork you need to write the title, all of their names were there, and then David took it in and crossed their names out.

14:05 Wow. David promised Franka that he would fix it, but instead he quietly transferred ownership of the home to his brother, Matthew. Meanwhile, the Knight's finances were collapsing. David, who had either moved out or was sleeping in a separate room. I read two different accounts. He had stopped paying the mortgage, and he had also stopped helping with the boys, who were ten and twelve. Carmela confided in a friend that she was drowning in debt and didn't know how she'd recover. Did Carmela work outside of the home. She did. She had a job at a bank. I'm not sure exactly what she did, but yes, she worked at a bank. Carmela's attorney filed for an emergency motion for custody and support. The hearing to decide on that motion was set for Thursday. September eighteenth, twenty fourteen. That was three days after the fire that killed Carmela. Just days earlier, on Saturday, September thirteenth, Carmela confided in a friend at her son's hockey game that she was growing increasingly afraid of David. He had become more aggressive and she feared that if things got worse, he might try to kill her. The friend, who happened to be a Toronto police officer, was alarmed. He urged her to contact her local police in Durham, but Carmela was reluctant. She didn't want to escalate things. She just wanted to move on with her life and be done with David.

15:23 Just two nights after that alarming conversation, Pickering was draped in drizzle when smoke began pouring from the roof of the Knight's home on Pebblestone Crescent. Fire trucks raced to the scene just before eight. Carmela's friend and neighbor, Anna Connolly, ran outside as sirens wailed down the street. Seeing the glow from the Knight's garage, her heart pounded. She didn't know if Carmela, David, or the boys were inside. She called Carmela's phone again and again with no answer. Hoping they were together, she called Carmela's mother, Franca, but Franka hadn't seen her at all that day. When Anna told her what was happening, Franka grabbed her keys and sped toward the house. Inside the garage, firefighter Steve Grubbitch was knocking down small spotfires and the poor visibility, he tripped over something and fell to the floor of the garage.

16:16 He turned his flashlight toward the object he had tripped over and froze. Lying there was what appeared to be a badly burned body. By the time Franka arrived, the flames were mostly out, but the garage roof still hissed with smoke. She ran toward the open garage door, glimpsed the shape on the floor, and was stopped by police before she could get any closer. Why would they just leave her body there? I think they were still in the middle of trying to get the fire completely out, so they probably just hadn't been able to do anything yet to cover up the body or to remove it at that point. But they knew that she was there, they had discovered her. I think they had probably just discovered her shortly before Franka arrived.

16:57 Carmelo's sister, Nancy, arrived moments later, frantic trying to reach David, but he wasn't answering his cell phone. Terrified that the whole family may have been inside, Franka and Nancy were escorted to the police station to wait for news. Their officers told them that David and the boys were safe. The police had gotten in touch with David. They'd been at hockey practice in Toronto when the fire broke out. Relief washed over them for a moment until they heard the news there had indeed been a body found in the garage. Dental records would be needed for confirmation, but Franka and Nancy already knew. Just the day before, Carmela had been helping Nancy plan her wedding, and now she was gone. It seemed surreal. Not long after David arrived at the station with the boys, he left the children in the car with his father while he spoke with police.

17:48 When told that officers found a body, as yet unidentified, he broke down, crying. Officers noted that his grief seemed genuine. Later, David told the boys that their mother was gone. Their younger son, Dylan would later recall the anguish in his father's voice as he wept. At first, Franka and Nancy tried to come up with an innocent explanation. Carmela sometimes went out to the garage for a smoke with dirt bikes and gas can story there could something have accidentally ignited, but investigators quickly realized this was no accident. Carmela's body told a different story. She had a tourniquet wrapped around her arm and a syringe lying nearby. It looked like a possible drug overdose, but her family and friends immediately dismissed this idea. Carmela wasn't a drug user. She barely even drink a glass of wine now and then. The autopsy raised even more questions. Beneath her charred skin, the tissue underneath was largely intact, revealing grim details. Carmela had facial injuries consistent with blunt force trauma and the cause of death strangulation from neck compression. She had been murdered before the fire was set. Lab tests added one final twist.

19:01 The syringe contained traces of cocaine, but toxicology showed no drugs in Carmela's system. Whoever killed her had tried to stage the scene to make it look like she'd been using drugs. A very strange scene. The whole thing is just odd. The fire, the tourniquet around her arm, the syringe cocaine is just kind of an odd you know, just an odd set of circumstances. Well, especially the tourniquet. Do you have any explanation for that. We'll talk a little more about that. Investigators quickly learned that Carmela and David's marriage had been falling apart. David described as separation as amicable, but Carmela's friends and family told a different story. Detectives needed to verify his alibi. David said he left the house around three thirty that afternoon with the boys. They grabbed McDonald's, then drove to Toronto for hockey practice, which ran from six thirty to eight pm.

19:52 I just want to make one talent around the timeline here. I know that he left the house at three thirty. I know he went to McDonald's. I don't know why it was three hours between the pot bens and the occupractice. I'm not sure if they did other things in there, but it seemed like you know. Whatever his story was, the timing did check out. Carmela had come home from her banking job around five pm, and the fire started sometime after seven point thirty. If David's story checked out, he couldn't have been at the scene. Police interviewed other hockey parents who saw David there, skating around and helping on the ice as he often did. Surveillance footage from the rink confirmed it David was exactly where he said he was. Then came an intriguing clue.

20:34 The Knights didn't have video surveillance, but their alarm system recorded interior door activity between three point thirty when David left and five when Carmela arrived home. Several interior door sensors were triggered, meaning someone had been inside moving around. Had someone been lying in wait for her? Another intriguing detail came from Franca. She told police that just days before the fire, a strange had appeared at the house. Carmela was in the backyard when this man suddenly looked over the fence and asked for David. She told him David wasn't home. The man just laughed, turned and walked away. Carmela ran inside, looking out the front window, just in time to see him climb into a black suv and drive off. She didn't recognize him, but the encounter left her shaken. When she told David about it, he brushed it off, but then immediately began acting paranoid, setting the alarm that night for the first time in a while.

21:31 With David's alibi seemingly airtight, investigators turned to Carmela's circle for insight. Did she have enemies a secret life that could explain her murder. No one could think of a single person who disliked her. Everyone described her as warm, generous, and kind. In October, hundreds of mourners packed into a Pickering church for a celebration of Carmela's life. The sanctuary held six hundred people and every seat was taken, with others standing. Again. He's the back wall, conspicuously absent, though we're David and the Boys. Members of the boys' hockey team came in their jerseys to support the family, but David told team officials he wouldn't be there with his sons.

22:12 He said it wouldn't be a safe environment for them. I have no idea what that means why he would have made that comment, but I. Was trying to imply that whoever killed his wife was probably looking for him too. Yeah, I suppose, so that's ridiculous. Yes, we'll be back after a break. As detectives followed up on the lead about the man in the black SUV, a new tip came in, one that changed everything. It came from David's sister in law, Heather Knight, who was married to David's brother, Matthew. Matthew had been living in Florida since early September doing some work for David, and he returned to Canada just a few days before Carmela was killed. Then only two days after the murder, he abruptly left Canada and went back to Florida.

23:03 Remind me what they did in Florida. They had a vacation home there, and I believe David was also doing some work there or looking to start a business there. He was in construction, he did project management, and I think maybe he was looking to Florida as a new business opportunity. Gotcha, when he left Canada to go back to Florida to Heather his wife, it felt like he was running away and that he didn't plan to come back. But what truly haunted her were the words he said before leaving. I know who, what, when, where, and how. Matthew told her with one phone call, I could have stopped this and I have to live with that for the rest of my life. And then he broke down in tears. He added, maybe twenty or thirty years down the road, when we're on a beach somewhere, I'll tell you everything. But I can't now. I don't want you to be in that position. Detectives were stunned when they asked Hoather about his behavior and activities on the night of the fire. She said that they had been together all day. There was no way that Matthew could have killed Carmela himself. But later that night, as soon as Matthew heard about the fire, he suddenly rushed out of the house. Heather assumed that he had gone to see his brother, but then David called her asking if she'd seen Matthew, so clearly the brothers weren't together.

24:18 Heather later found out that Matthew had gone to visit a friend named Graham McDonald. Why in the middle of a family tragedy would he run to see a friend. Investigators needed to find out who Graham McDonald was and what he knew. Graham, McDonald and Matthew Knight had met while working at a company called Hot Sets, which builds custom film and TV sets. They became friends, and eventually Matthew introduced Graham to his brother David. Graham was a handyman who took on odd jobs, and David needed work done around his house. Graham helped out, and before long he and David struck up a friendship as well. When detectives brought Graham in for questioning, they asked where he had been the day of the fire. He said that he'd gone to visit his grandmother in Toronto, but she hadn't been home. After that, he claimed, he took the Go train back to Pickering and walked nearly an hour to Moody's motel, where he was staying at the time.

25:13 Investigators pulled surveillance footage from his grandmother's apartment complex, there was no sign of him. They also checked the Go train video from that same day and again nothing. That's when detectives began to wonder, during all those days Graham had spent working at the Knight's home, had he perhaps developed some kind of fixation on Carmela. They brought him back in for another interview and confronted him about his shaky alibi. Graham insisted that he had been in Toronto, but admitted that his memory was fuzzy. He said he had smoked crack and taken a couple of percocets that night, and things were hazy. As the questions kept coming, Graham grew defensive. Finally he pushed back from the table and said he was done talking, and then he walked out.

25:58 So this Graham MacDonald is kind of a shifty character. He's living at this cheap motel, he doesn't have a home. He's sort of almost a drifter in a way, doing odd jobs for people. So definitely someone that caught the attention of investigators. Meanwhile, investigators headed to Florida. There were two people they needed to talk to, David's brother, Matthew Knight and his alleged girlfriend, Jill Hartman. Jill was cooperative. She told them that she and David had met at a bar about a year and a half earlier, and that he had told her that he was divorced. She said she knew nothing about his life in Canada, only that when he was in Florida. The two spent a lot of time together. I would consider it boyfriend and girlfriend, she said, but I don't know how serious. He lived there and I lived here. It became clear that David Knight had been living a double life. Do you think it's unusual that this woman is dating this guy in Florida, but he lives in Toronto? And I don't know how often he was in Florida, but he must have been fairly regularly. But she didn't seem to know anything about his life in Toronto, didn't seem that curious about it, even though she considered him her boyfriend.

27:07 Well, do you think it's odd that a young woman from Illinois was dating an older man from Michigan. Maybe a long distance relationships happened. But you knew what I did in Michigan, and I knew what you did in Illinois. It's like we knew about each other's lives pretty much. Yeah. Matthew, on the other hand, wasn't nearly as forthcoming. Detectives went to his house in Florida but got no answer. When they finally reached him by phone, he was defensive and dismissive. He insisted that the story his wife, Heather had told them was made up. She was just trying to cause trouble, he said. He told them he had no intention of returning to Canada, and then he hung up. Back in Ontario, Carmela's mother, Franka, was growing increasingly frustrated.

27:52 From her perspective, weeks had passed with little progress in the investigation. She didn't know the inner workings of the investigation, only that her daughter was gone and no one had been held accountable. But detectives weren't giving up. They tried to speak with David again, but he refused to cooperate, and quickly lawyered up. Look into his finances told a troubling story. He was drowning in debt and had stopped paying the mortgage on the family home, and the pressure was mounting. Just three days after Carmela's death, a cord hearing had been scheduled to determined custody and support payments, a proceeding that would have made David's financial situation even worse. Then there was the mysterious man in the black suv, the one who had frightened Carmela shortly before the fire. Investigators eventually identified him as David's former business partner who claimed that David had stolen two hundred thousand dollars from him. The money had been meant to start a construction company, but the business never got off the ground, and David had been dodging his calls ever since. The man admitted he'd gone to the house that day today confront David, not Carmela, and police concluded that he had no role in her death. Still, it was another window into David's crumbling finances and growing list of enemies. And then came another revelation. David had taken out two life insurance policies on Carmela, totaling eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars. It was more than enough to establish motive, but not proof. Investigators were certain David

29:26 Knight had a hand in his wife's death. What they didn't have yet was evidence to tie him to it. By December, three months after Carmela's murder, detective secured approval to tap David Knight's phone. What they heard only deepened their suspicions. David was planning a fresh start. He talked with family about moving to Florida, describing the house he wanted to buy close to good schools with a big backyard for the boys, so he had custody of the boys after Carmela's death. They also learned that around the time of Carmela's death, David had been trying to buy a construction company in Florida for nine hundred thousand dollars, but his finances were a mess and a payment deadline was fast approaching. If he missed it, the deal would fall apart. The pressure was mounting from all sides.

30:14 He was going to buy a construction company for nine hundred thousand dollars. He had life insurance on his wife for eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars, a very similar amount. Do you know if the insurance policies paid out. I don't know for sure, but I think because there was an active investigation and her death was labeled homicide, that I'm guessing that they did not pay out until the investigation was done. Early in the investigation, authorities had seized David's passport to prevent him from leaving the country, but phone calls he exchanged in December with Jill Hartman, his girlfriend in Florida, made it clear he intended to go anyway. He talked about making arrangements for his kids and even his dog. Alarmed, detectives discovered that David had simply gone to the passport office, claimed he'd lost his passport of the gym and been issued a.

31:00 One the second time. We did another case a while ago where somebody did that. It just it boggles my mind. This is Canada and not the US. But how easy it is to get a new passport like after the police. Have Well this was at least ten years ago, so maybe it's not as easy today. On the evening of December fourteenth, investigators intercepted a call between David and a private pilot named Bessam al Saraj. David was trying to charter a plane to Florida immediately. Assam found one leaving the next morning. The price was steep, fifteen thousand dollars. David wired the money that night. Police knew that if he got on that plane, justice might slip away for good.

31:41 They didn't yet have enough evidence to arrest him, but they could stop him from fleeing. They contacted Toronto police, who sent an officer racing to the airport. When David arrived, dog and luggage in tow the officer approached and said, I'm seizing your passport on behalf of the government of Canada. David's plan was spoiled. And by the way, he never got his fifteen thousand dollars back. I didn't think so. If he had gotten to Florida, though, wouldn't he have been extradited pretty quickly back? He could be, for sure, but I think it would have just made the investigation more difficult. By January twenty fifteen, investigators were convinced that David Knight, Graham MacDonald, and possibly Matthew Knite were all involved in Carmelo's murder, but none of the three men were talking, and without solid evidence, the case was at a standstill.

32:29 Detectives believed David had likely hired Graham to carry out the crime, but at that point it was only a theory. They needed to take bold action, so they decided to launch an undercover operation one targeting Graham McDonald. Graham was a drug user with no fixed address by this time, living out of a cheap motel in Port Hope, about forty five minutes from Pickering. Investigators knew he wasn't the mastermind. He was vulnerable and possibly susceptible to deception, enter an undercover officer whom Will called Joe. His real name and undercover name have never been revealed to maintain his anonymity, so I just gave him the name Joe Okay.

33:11 Joe's mission was simple, befront Graham. Joe check did it the same hotel, and one night in the bar, accidentally spilled his beer near Graham. It sparked a casual conversation and then another round of drinks. The two men hit it off, and before long they were drinking buddies. Once Joe had earned Graham's trust, he told him he sometimes did small time criminal work, moving stolen goods, that kind of thing, and he asked Graham if he wanted in. Graham said sure. As the friendship grew, Graham began to open up, he mentioned that police were looking at him for a murder and pickering a few months earlier. Joe told him that he might be able to help. He knew people, connected people. One of them, he explained, specialized in making legal problems disappear. His name uncle Dan, but in Canadian police parlance he was known by another name, mister Big. Not Carrie Bradshaw's mister Biggs, though, no, let's go down a quick rabbit hole. Mister Big operations are a uniquely Canadian police tactic. Elaborate, expensive, and controversial. They're designed to extract confessions from suspects when investigators don't have enough physical evidence to charge them. This method dates back to nineteen sixty five when the Royal Canadian Mounted Police the RCMP. We're investigating a former Vancouver Police constable suspected of stealing one point two million dollars in canceled currency.

34:40 Two undercover officers posed as members of a violent crime ring. They befriended the suspect and eventually drew out a confession. He was convicted and the tactic was born. Over the decades, mister Big became one of Canadian detective's signature tools, but also one of its most disputed. The tactic has led to several wrongful convictions. Here are two of the most notorious examples. First, the Andy Rose case from British Columbia. In nineteen eighty three, German tourists Andrea Sharp and Burned Gordikey were murdered near Shetwand did I say that right? A town nestled in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains.

35:22 Years later, Andy Roskin was convicted twice based almost entirely on the testimony of a single witness who claimed she saw him drunk and covered in blood the night of the killings. Both convictions were overturned on technicalities, and doubts deepened when another man in California confessed to his wife that he was the real killer before taking his own life. Still, the RCMP wasn't ready to give up. They still believed Andy Rose was the killer. In nineteen ninety nine, desperate for a confession, they launched a Mister Big sting. Undercover officers posed as members of a criminal gang and befriended Rose for months, drawing him into their world. Eventually they introduced him to the crime boss, mister Big himself. After a few drinks and relentless pressure, Rose gave the confession they wanted, but years later DNA evidence cleared him. The case collapsed, and the operation was widely criticized as an example of how far mister Big tactics could go in manufacturing a confession rather than uncovering the truth. The second example is the Nelson Hart case from Newfounderland. In two thousand two, Heart's twin daughters, Christa and Karen drowned when they fell from a wharf in Little Harbor. Hart, who had epilepsy in only a fourth grade education, said one child fell in and he ran for help because he couldn't swim. When rescuers arrived, both girls had drowned. The police weren't buying his version of events. To get a confession,

36:52 they built an elaborate Mister Big sting officers posed as part of a nationwide crime ring, showering Heart with friendship, luxury trips, meals, and cash. They gave him a sense of belonging he'd never had before. Eventually, Heart was introduced to the boss, mister Big, who told him he needed to clean up his past before joining the organization. Feeling pressure to impress his new friends and terrified of losing their approval, Heart confessed to pushing his daughters into the water, even re enacting the crime on video, and he was convicted of murder. But in twenty fourteen, the Supreme Court of Canada overturned the verdict, ruling that confessions from mister Big operations are presumptively inadmissible. The court found that the tactics created a risk of false confessions, especially for vulnerable individuals like heart. As of two thousand and eight, the Mister Big technique has been used in more than three hundred fifty investigations across Canada. It's still legal today, but heavily restricted. There are two key requirements to make a mister Big operation admissible in court. First, prosecutors must prove that any confession obtained is reliable, and second that the police methods used wouldn't bring the administration of justice into disrepute.

38:08 The second part essentially means that police can't use tactics that are so unfair, abusive, or deceptive that they would make the justice system look bad or untrustworthy, for example, threatening or coercing the suspect, using violence or extreme intimidation, or generally behaving in ways that shock the conscience or make the public think the justice system is dirty or corrupt. Outside Canada, the Mister Big practice is largely banned. The United States, the United Kingdom, and several other countries prohibit or severely limit the use of mister Big style operations. Now, that was a bit of a long rabbit hole, but a I found it really interesting. I think it's a really interesting tactic and it's very uniquely Canadian. But also it's very relevant for the rest of the story.

38:56 And I find it interesting that these operations are usually very elaborate, like they involve a lot of people. They involve these like kind of wild stories that they draw somebody into, and it can definitely be, you know, something where they extract a confession that isn't real, And I think that's the that's the risk here is that you get somebody so in, you know, entrenched, and you become friends with them, and they'll be willing to say things just to stay in that inner circle. Yeah, it is crazy. We'll be back after a break. Let's get back to Graham, Joe and Uncle Dan. Once Joe learned about Graham's legal troubles, he offered to introduce him to a fixer, Uncle Dan, a man who supposedly made problems disappear. The meeting was set in an ice fishing shanty on a frozen lake.

39:47 On the drive there, Joe and Graham were pulled over. It looked like a routine traffic stop, but it had been staged by the undercover team meant to rattle Graham. The officer made a point of letting Graham overhear the radio when he ran his name and was told that he was a suspect in a murder investigation. After a tense pause, the cop let them go with a warning. Shaken, Graham and Joe pressed on to the shanty, which was wired for sound. As detectives listened from the shore. While they sat on the ice, Uncle Dan asked about Graham's problem. Graham hesitated, they're starting to throw my name around. He said, I don't know if they're using me as a scapegoat. Uncle Dan jumped in, So are you telling me you had nothing to do with this? Whatsoever? Are you telling me that? Graham paused and shook his head. I can't.

40:35 Uncle Dan pressed, what do you mean you can't? Graham admitted, I can't say I never had nothing to do with it. Uncle Dan bluntly asked, did you kill the brod? With tears in his eyes, Graham nodded yes, he said. Detectives listening on the shore high fived in a moment of celebration, but they knew the confession was only the start. They still needed the rest of the story, and they needed to link Graham's admission to David Knight. At that point, Uncle Dan played it cool, not pressing too hard, and promised Graham he would look into a solution and be in touch soon. A week later, Uncle Dan invited Graham to his office, where he said he had the solution to his problems. The solution took the form of a dying man, another undercover officer that we'll call Ron. Ron was supposedly a terminally ill cancer patient who only had a few months to live. If Graham would just agree to put twenty thousand dollars in a trust fund for Ron's two sons, he would provide a deathbed confession to the murder of Carmela Knight. Uncle Dan made it even easier.

41:41 He offered to front the twenty thousand dollars to Graham, who could work it off later. It was a perfect scheme and Graham agreed. But to make it work, Ron would need details. He needed to be able to convince the police that he did indeed kill Carmela. Wow, this is so elaborate. It's really brilliant too, because basically they're saying Ron will admit to this, but you got to give him details otherwise he's not going to be able to convince the police. So Ron is pretending to have terminal cancer and saying, you give me the twenty thousand dollars for my sons and I'll admit to it. And yeah, because I'm going to die anyways. Oh we did before you can prosecute me.

42:21 Yeah, exactly. Ron the dying man came to Dan's office in a wheelchair, complete with an IV bag and makeup to make him look like he was not long for this world. Uncle Dan. Ron and Joe sat Graham down and said, tell us everything, every little detail Graham did. He said that on the day of the murder, he and David had gone to a gas station together to fill cans for the fire. David then left with the boys for hockey at about three point thirty, leaving Graham alone in the house. He waited until Carmela arrived home from work around five o'clock. She came in through the garage. He ambushed her from behind with a ratchet stretch. As she entered the kitchen, she fought. He chased her around the island until he could tackle her and then use the strap to strangle her to death.

43:08 What is a ratchet strap? So it's like something you used to tie down stuff, like on your trailer. It's like a strap with like a thing you can tighten it with. She fought for about fifteen minutes, Graham told them, which doesn't sound like much, but it's a long fucking time, he said. It took him half an hour afterward just to catch his breath. He then dragged her to the garage and tried to make it look like a drug incident. He pulled out what he called his junkie kit, a syringe, a tournique. He tried to inject cocaine into her arm, but with no blood circulating in her body, it didn't work, so he left the tourniquet on, placed the needle beside her, and put a small baggie of cocaine in her purse. He left her body face down by a chair to suggest that she had stood up and then collapsed.

43:52 I have to admit something here. I am kind of dim sometimes. The first time, I think in the intro you mentioned that she had a tourniquet around her arm, I was thinking like a sling like that kind of Uh, her arm was injured. So gotcha could mean that? Now it all makes sense. Now it all makes sense, because I was so confused, like, why would her arm be in a tourniquet? Got it? Then he waited until nightfall. He knocked over a can of gas, waited ten minutes to let it soak in, and then tossed a lit candle into the pool of fuel. The fire took off stupid fast as he put it, and he ran for the door. But he didn't count on the intense pressure that would result from the blazing inferno. Pressure that made it very difficult for him to open the door. He told the undercover cops. Fuck, it was scary, man. Everything went up. I couldn't get the doors open. It was scary. I went out through a side door I didn't want to use because there's an alarm system from there. He ditched his outer clothes and walked back to the motel. Graham told the undercover team that David had promised him one hundred thousand dollars and a job in Florida for carrying out the killing.

45:02 In reality, though, he'd been paid only two thousand dollars and given a ride to his mom's house in Colborne. After that, David ghosted him. It makes me so sick not that it's better if it was one hundred thousand dollars, but that someone would kill a person for two thousand dollars. Yeah, Graham told them that David had supplied two burner phones that they used to plan the scheme. Frustrated and feeling betrayed, Graham even hinted that he might blackmail David or make him disappear too, saying I did it once, I could do it again and make sure I get it right the second time. Uncle Dan and the others discouraged any talk of violence. The undercover team, of course, didn't want anyone else killed. What they wanted was one simple thing. Cash and exchange of money would be the key piece of evidence to connect David to the crime.

45:52 Do you think Graham was it all suspicious when they kept pressing for more details, like they wanted every single minute detail. That The undercover cops explained it to Graham as they needed every detail otherwise they wouldn't Ron wouldn't be able to convince the police that he did, so he had to have every detail, So that makes sense. I think Graham is maybe not the sharpest knife in the drawer anyway, but I think he bought into it. Graham had shared details that only the killer could have known somewhere, facts police had intentionally kept from the public, like the baggy of cocaine in Carmela's purse, Others like the purchases of gasoline with David and the use of burner phones, where things investigators hadn't known themselves. Before moving to the next space, getting Graham to ask David for payment, detectives needed to verify his story. First, they pulled surveillance footage from the gas station Graham had mentioned. Sure enough, there was David Knight at the pump filling gas cans while Graham sat clearly visible in the passenger seat. Then they dug into the burner phones. In ice rink footage from the night of the murder, David could be seen skating and talking on a phone, but his personal cell phone records show no calls at that time. When detectives checked the burner phone logs, they've found calls between David and Graham, not just that evening, but frequent communication in the weeks leading up to Carmelo's death. After the murder, silence, the calls stopped cold. There was enough evidence to move forward.

47:21 The undercover team prepared the final phase of their Mister Big operation. They needed two things, an exchange of cash between David and Graham and at least one piece of physical evidence linking David directly to the crime. Sad evidence, they planned would be given to Ron, the terminally ill fall Guide to make the cover story air tight. By this point, investigators knew David's routine. He spent most afternoons at the frog A pub on Young Street. They told Graham to confront him there and demand his money. Agents were already stationed inside, disguised as customers, with hidden cameras and microphones placed throughout the bar, and even one secretly planted on Graham himself.

48:03 How they planted a microphone on Graham, I don't know, but it's just another just such an elaborate plan, and they've got all these undercover officers in the bar like acting like customers. Yeah, you know, how many people were involved in this operation, but that is nuts. When David saw his old friend, he looked surprised, but after a few beers he loosened up. David apologized for not paying what he owed and promised to make it right. Graham explained his plan to have a dying man confessed to the murder. David seemed impressed. Later, Graham bragged to Joe and Uncle Dan, He's impressed with how I'm handling myself. He knows I'm not a fucking rat. I don't have nobody tailing me. Oh the irony, I know. Over the next few days, David and Graham met several more times.

48:46 David eventually agreed to find something, anything from Carmelo's belongings that could serve as evidence for the cancer patient's confession. The next day, Graham met with Joe when Uncle Dan and pulled out a small item a Rosemary said. Joe frowned, you mean a rosary. Graham nodded, yeah, rosary whatever. It came right from her purse. It's got her DNA on it. Finally, in February twenty fifteen, after several meetings, David produced some cash. It wasn't much, just five thousand dollars, but it was enough. He slipped the money to Graham at the bar, unaware that undercover cameras were rolling. That was it the final piece of the puzzle. As the man left the frog that afternoon, officers closed in after months of deception, surveillance and patience. David Knight and Graham MacDonald were both under arrest the jig was up. David and Graham were both charged with first degree murder, conspiracy to commit murder, and arson in Florida. David's brother, Matthew Knight was arrested and extradited to Canada, charged as an accessory after the fact, bail was denied for all three men. Even behind bars, there was no shortage of drama. At one point, Graham and Matthew were housed in the same facility. When they crossed paths, Graham attacked him, pubbling Matthew before guards pulled them apart. Both men spent time in solitary confinement afterward. Then, in September twenty fifteen, there was an attempted jail break at the detention center where David was being held. Inmates

50:18 had started tunneling through a cell wall, but the plan was discovered before anyone escaped. News reports claimed David Knight was involved, though officers declined to confirm it. In April twenty seventeen, Matthew Knight pleaded guilty to being an accessory after the fact. He was sentenced to time served in two years probation, roughly eighteen months behind bars in total. That seems kind of light. As Graham's trial approached in early twenty eighteen, his lawyers filed a motion to exclude the evidence from the Mister Big operation. Remember that under the twenty fourteen Supreme Court ruling, such confessions are presumed inadmissible unless prosecutors can prove two things, first that the confession is reliable, and second that police conduct didn't bring the administration of justice into disrepute. The first test was easy, Graham had revealed details only the killer could know, so his defense focused on the second, arguing that police plied him with alcohol during the sting and discouraged him from seeking legal advice. I think they might have a point there.

51:23 Yeah, maybe the judge. Does not agree that these actions brought the administration of justice into disrepute, Graham's confession to mister Big would be allowed. I think that second part is a tricky one, right, because you know, police can't do anything that is shady or unethical, And yeah, maybe like drinking together might be a little bit unethical, but it's a very gray area. So drinking together is one thing, but getting him drunk is another, you know, like not telling him, Hey, maybe you've had enough, buddy, because you know he could be embellishing this story. I'm not defending him, but to preserve his rite to appeal, Graham pleaded not guilty, but didn't contest the evidence. He waived a jury and opted for a judge only trial, a formality that guaranteed conviction but kept the door open for an appeal on the mister Big issue. Meanwhile, David Knight's lawyers requested a media blackout on Graham's trial, claiming it would prejudice potential jurors in David's own case. That motion was denied. Graham's trial lasted just two days. The verdict guilty on all counts. His sentence was automatic life in prison, with eligibility for parole after twenty five years. He'll be fifty three when that time comes.

52:39 David's trial began a few months later, in October twenty eighteen, more than four years after Carmela's murder. He pleaded not guilty. One of the crown's key witnesses was supposed to be Graham McDonald, but when he took the stand, prosecutors got a surprise. Graham entered the courtroom in cuffs and shackles, muttering to himself. When asked to stand and take an oath, he exploded, shouting profanity and flashing obscene gestures. I'm giving you the finger, he said, go fuck yourself. Put that on the record. The judge warned him about contempt and advised him to speak with his lawyer. Graham shot back, there's nothing to discuss. I have no business being here. He was immediately removed from the courtroom. He was later convicted of contempt and sentenced to four years, but those four years were to be served concurrently with his life sentence, meaning that it really changed nothing.

53:31 Four years for contempt. That seems like. A it does, but in the end it really didn't mean anything, right, But yeah, it does seem like quite a bit. Even without Graham's testimony, Prosecutors had plenty audio and video recordings from the sting, Graham describing the plot in detail, footage of David handing over cash, and surveillance of the two men at the gas station. David's brother, Matthew, took the stand against him, testifying for three full days. He said that when he first heard about the fire, he knew what must have happened. He confronted Graham at his motel, and Graham admitted that he had done it. Asked why he didn't call police, Matthew simply said it was not my job. David's defense was simple. He claimed he had nothing to do with it. If Graham killed Carmela, he acted on his own. Graham, he said, was a career criminal and drug addict who concocted the story to save himself. David took the stand for five days, denying everything, the payments, the burner phones, even the plan involving the terminal cancer patient. When shown the five thousand dollars and the rosary that Graham left the bar with, David insisted that Graham must have stolen them from his pocket. In closing arguments, David's attorney accused the police of coercion, saying a more coerced police confession has yet to be seen.

54:50 That seems like a bit of a stretch to me. The trial stretched over four months. The core months, the jury deliberated for a full day before returning a verdict guilty on all counts first degree murder, conspiracy to commit murder, and arson. Like Graham, David received a mandatory life sentence with eligibility for parole after twenty five years. The judge had discretion on whether the other counts would run concurrently or consecutively. Carmela's mother, Franka Augusta, made a powerful victim impact statement. He was supposed to love and protect karm not murder her. He had no mercy for Carmela and the court should have no mercy for him. In the end, the judge ruled that the additional sentences would run concurrently, meaning that David Knight will be eligible for parole after twenty five years. He'll be sixty seven years old at that time. Both David Knight and Graham MacDonald indicated that they planned to appeal their convictions, but there's no public record of either case moving forward. Hopefully that means they either decided against it or that their appeals were unsuccessful.

55:56 In October twenty nineteen, the Durham Police Homicide Unit was reckoned during the annual Police Appreciation dinner and awards night for their work on Carmela's case. Carmela's family has kept a low profile since the trials. Her mother Franka, her sister Nancy, and her youngest son, Dylan all appeared on the Dateline episode about the case. Dylan said that at first he couldn't believe his father was responsible for his mother's death, but over time he came to accept the truth. After their mother's murder, Dylan and his brother were raised by their aunt Nancy. She and her husband have two younger children, and Dylan says he feels like a big brother now. Nancy's friends later gave her a special gift, a necklace engraved with Carmela's handwriting that reads love Calm.

56:42 She treasured it so much that she had an identical one made for her mom. Today, both women wear their necklaces to keep Carmela close to their hearts. Every year, the family gathers to celebrate Carmela's birthday to remember her laughter, her kindness, and the love that she poured into everyone around her. Piece Carmela, A few questions for you. What do you think ultimately pushed David Knight to kill Carmela. Do you think it was the financial pressure, the loss of control after she was going to divorce him, or was it just pure selfishness. It's probably a combination of all those factors, right, I'm. Sure it was a combination. But in my opinion, it was mostly the financial stuff. Like he was in over his head and he had all this stuff going on, and he was, you know, he was going to get divorced and he was probably going to have to pay support.

57:31 So I think he was just in a really he found himself in a spot that he felt like he was between a rock and a hard place and had to come up with cash. True, but in order to kill someone, you have to, you know, be a narcissistic, selfish, you know, horrible person too. Yeah. Absolutely. Let's talk about the police undercover operation the mister big sting. Do you think they were justified in using this elaborate undercover sting given the risks we talked about with you know, the these type of tactics can often lead to coercion and false confessions. You said it's legal in Canada, and if it's a tool available to you in your arsenal, then why not use it? Yeah, but you said it's used less frequently now than it used to.

58:12 Be because of that Supreme Court ruling. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of restrictions around it. But I love it. I think it's I mean, obviously you have to be super careful, right, But I just think it's a really clever, creative way to learn what happened. Well, knowing you and the way your mind works, I can see how you know, you just would love to create that as that scheme in your head. Right. It reminds me a little of the movie Donny Brasco with Johnny Depp and al Pacino, where Johnny Depp goes undercover like with the Mob, and it's just it just fascinates me with these guys have to like put on this different persona, you know, they have to be actors in addition to investigating. I mean in some ways, but it could also be pretty dangerous.

58:55 Yeah, pretty stressful. Yeah. Do you think the sentences that David and Graham got were just so they both got life in prison, but they're eligible for parole after twenty five years. I don't really know. I think Canada's justice system is a little more lenient than here in the United States. Like in the United States, they probably would have gotten a life sentence without the possibility of parole. Right because it was clearly premeditated. Yeah, I don't really know. I'd like to believe that there is a chance for anyone to be rehabilitated and a twenty five year sentence. You know, maybe you should be given that opportunity, right, Yeah, I don't know. It's really tricky. It is a tough one. Every country has different, you know, sort of norms.

59:35 You know, it surprises me. There's a little off topic, but how many people are still like Jeffrey MacDonald, which is the very first case that I ever did for love Mary kill, like he's in his eighties and he's still alive in prison. You know, I know life in prison can't be easy, and I don't think they feed you especially well. So you know, how are all these people still? I know plenty of people die in prison, but you know what I mean, like, plenty of people are alive in prison in their eighties. Yeah, if you get convicted of something like you know, first degree murder at a very young age, you're spending a lot of time in prison if you live to be that long. And that's you know, Graham, I don't know how old he was. He must have been fairly young, because I think I said he's eligible to get out in his early fifties.

1:00:18 I think fifty three. I think you said, yeah, so you know, he still has potential to have a life, and like you said, you hope that people could be rehabilitated. But at the same time, taking someone's life in like a purely cold blood, premeditated way, it's just so hard to get past that. You know. I try to think if you take someone's life, that you should be in prison for the rest of your life. But it's hard in this situation because David he didn't kill anyone. You know, it's just kind of hard sometimes to decipher that in my head, Like, Okay, so he didn't kill anyone. He planned it, right the guy who? You know, it's like, who is the guiltier party there? Yeah, they both equally guilty. I'm not sure that that is a tough one. What about Matthew's sentence. So Matthew apparently knew it was going to happen because he told his wife, but he only got eighteen months.

1:01:07 I will admit to you, I'm not exactly sure what Matthew is guilty of. I mean, it's not one hundred percent clear what he's guilty of. It seems like he knew that David was planning this in advance because he told his wife, Heather that I knew exactly, you know, I could have put a stop to this, and I didn't, So it seems like he could have changed the outcome. And you know, reported David before it happened, or at the very least he could have after it happened. He knew exactly what happened, and he still failed to go to the police. Yeah, eighteen months seems pretty light. It does. But if all he is guilty of is not going to the police with the information, I don't.

1:01:48 I don't know. I wish we knew a little more about that. I guess, Yeah, I do too. I have a question for you. We've this is almost our two hundredth case. Do you see what women are up against? Has this changed your impression of relationship between men and women doing this podcast for so long, Like how many men are really innately dishonest with their partner and how you know it's really hard for a lot of women to leave a relationship. What have you learned from doing the podcast for three years? Yeah, I mean I would say I always, you know, knew that that was a situation for a lot of women, but it has made it maybe even more like shocking how many of these stories we talk about where women are in a really dangerous, scary situation. It's very, very difficult to get out of that situation.

1:02:36 You talked about the women in Florida David's girlfriend jil Okay Chill, and she didn't really ask too many questions and she didn't know a lot about David, And you thought that was strange that she didn't ask a lot of questions. But can you see how women want to think, Oh, he's a good guy, and you know, they're not a lot of good guys around, so it might not be perfect, but you know, I'll settle for him. So many women end up doing that because you know, yeah, you're a unicorn. That's not true, but there. Are are You are definitely unicorn. And there's a lot of good guys out there. There are also a lot of bad guys out there as well. Well. Remember a few, like a month ago, we were talking about the woman who put a billboard up I think it was Mary Lisa, and we had a lot of listeners say, you guys really should start a dating website because it really is hard to find someone.

1:03:27 Yeah, I'm not sure you're going to find someone by. The sure crime community. Yeah, maybe not, But going back to your original point, like Carmela in this case, I feel like she did everything. Right and still so many women do. I know, I know exactly. That's what's that's just so so sad. It's a very difficult situation to get out of. I think that is the most dangerous part of a woman's life is when she's trying to leave her partner. Yeah, sadly, that is the story of Carmela and David Knight. Were you thinking of Carmelo Soprano a lot during that episode? I was, yes too. We talked a lot in this episode about the Mister Big operations, and it got me thinking about like ethical policing and where I think police are in a very difficult position.

1:04:13 I thought you were going to give me a Sex in This City quiz. I am going to give you a quiz to find out what you would be like as a detective. First, can I ask you? Are you as Charlotte, a Miranda, A Samantha, or a Carrie. I have absolutely no idea. You watched Sex in the City with me, I know, but you watch all of it. Yeah, I don't even really remember. You're probably a Miranda, Okay, I mean s means you're smart. Will you tell us that you're smart all the time? Is Miranda do that too? I mean she just is smart smart. I think I'm a Miranda then, and you are.

1:04:54 I don't know, I'm Tina. I think I'm a little bit of a Charlotte and maybe a little bit of carry Okay, yis midge of Miranda? All right? I don't really think i'm miss Samantha. I feel like you're trying to avoid this ethical policing queer to me. I have no ethics. Well, I'm going to give you a few scenarios, okay, and you have to tell me how you react. So first one, you are a rookie detective. You stop into a local diner popular with the forest. I would like a piece of cherry pie. You go in, you go to pay for your meal, and the owner says, no, no, your money is no good here. You guys keep the neighborhood safe. It's the least I can do. Now, you know that department policy strictly forbids accepting gratuities of any kind. What do you do?

1:05:38 Oh? Well, if it's against policy, then I would say thanks, but no. Thanks, Okay, excellently very very upright, very honest. Okay, take a free donut every now and then, though, okay, not a. Whole meal, So you would draw the line at a donut, but not a whole meal. Gotcha, all right. Second scenario, You have arrested a suspect who you are certain has napped a young girl. The girl has been missing for forty eight hours, and you believe that time is running out. The suspect is sneering at you, refusing to talk. You believe that if you physically threaten him or use enhanced interrogation techniques, there's a chance that he'll reveal her location. But if you wait for a lawyer and you follow a standard procedure, you think that the girl will die.

1:06:22 Oh I know this is not These are not easy questions. Do you beat him up and get him to fess up, or do you let the legal system, you know, go buy the book? Well I would I would go buy the book because you have to follow the law. And yeah, it would be thrown out. Oh you mean like it would be okay, like you're trying to have a case thrown Yeah, okay, I get what you're saying. Yeah, I guess I save the little girl. Okay, so you're gonna beat him up. I have brass knuckles. I always keep them with me just in case. Okay, So yeah, I. Think it's a good answer. Yeah, all right. You and your partner pursue a suspect who fled after a violent mugging.

1:07:05 When you corner him in an alley, he surrenders and raises his hands. Your partner, still running on adrenaline and anger, hits the suspect with his baton, knocking him down. The suspect is hurt, but not critically. When writing the report, your partner says, hey, could you just leave out that part when I hit him and just say that he tripped? What do you do? I probably wouldn't, Yeah, you would what I would leave it out? Really you'd be like. I think, I mean, I think you have to. I'm not saying it's right, but you know, I think your. Part Yeah, you have to support your partner's and really no harm was done anyway. So yeah, although I do not believe in police brutality at all.

1:07:46 Okay, okay, but you're willing to look the other way to. Support not part So I'm not like me personally. M I guess you're asking me personally. But yeah, I think you have to, like, yeah, right, what would you do? You're not answering what you would do. I probably would also support my partner in that case. It's a very minor yeah, yeah, yeah. If you felt like it wasn't like a pattern that your partner was on his neck, right, yeah, exactly, all right. Next one, you are investigating a serial drug trafficker who has evaded capture for years. After a tip you find, you search a warehouse. You find a massive stash of heroin and other evidence that proves his guilt. However, you realize after the fact that the address on the search warrant was off by a digit, so technically the search was illegal and the evidence will be thrown out of court if you admit the mistake. Do you admit that there was a mistake and let the evidence get thrown out or do you lie and say, oh, it was corrected on the warrant So.

1:08:48 You're painting me to be a corrupt copy Yeah. Just I think police often have to deal with very morally gray situations. I think, if the numbers so yours, what would I do, like change the number on this search warrant? I think what you could do. Search warrant comes from the judge. No, I guess. The other alternative is that you would testify that you saw the suspect run into that building, which justified you entering the building. So you find some justification even though you didn't technically have a warrant. I feel like I'm already I've already compromised my integrity, so can't any. You might as well just go all the way. No, I have to follow. You're going to follow the book on this one, Okay, let the about you drug user go free. I don't know.

1:09:29 That's tough. It's actually a tough one. I think I would follow the book to you though. Yeah, I'm a rule follower. You really are? Yeah? All right? Last one, I kind of am not just I think people kind of know that in general, I'm not really renegade. No, No, not at all like I used to be. Now, I'm pretty much I hardly ever my speed, but depending how you define speeding, book, go ahead, all right. Last one, you have a high value confidential informant who provides you with tips that have led to arrests of major cartel leaders. One night, the confidential informant is picked up for a minor offense like drunken, disorderly or petty theft. If you let him get booked, his cover might be blown or he might stop helping you. So do you let him be booked like anyone else and let the law be the law? Or do you pull some strings and get him released without being charged?

1:10:18 I mean, aren't you supposed to do that for your CI? I mean technically, I mean Telty did right on the wire, mcnelty. Yeah, well, mcdulty. I don't know if McNulty is the best example of a ethical detective, but you would, you would. I mean I think I think that peoplelice do all the time for their cis right. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah, that one's probably not that uncommon at all. All right, well, you scored, We're going to call you the utilitarian, okay. You you believe that the ends justify the means. You're driven by noble cause corruption, so the belief that sometimes you have to do bad things to achieve a greater good. You want to get along with your fellow officers, you want to smooth things over.

1:11:04 So yeah, I think that's that's I think I think. That's reasonable about you. I think I'm probably that, or I might be more of the buy the book person. I'm a little bit in the middle. So your partner isn't going to trust you as much, and the guys on the forest aren't going to invite you exactly go for drinks. With That's the problem with the buy the book. You're going to report your fellow officers if their shoes aren't shiny, and yeah, yeah. You probably would be the pria of the police department and get promoted faster than totally totally you would. So I tried to write a poem for you for your birthday, but it was a spectacular fact though, So I am just going to say some words to you that you're amazing, you're loved, You work super duper hard for our family, you work really hard for this podcast, and you're loved and appreciated, and you're you're handsome. No one knows that but me, but you're you're very handsome, and uh, I don't know. Well, that's happy birthday. You are amazing, You are the best, and I hope you have a wonderful year.

1:12:05 Oh thank you so much. That sounded like poetry to me, So I will I will accept that as poetry. I am not I'm okay with words, but I'm not good poetry. I've just never been yeah, never been a poet. And you know it. I do well. Thank you, It's very nice of you to say. I appreciate it. One last thing before we go, I wanted to give a quick shout out to a fellow podcaster. Her name is Eileen Zen. She reached out to us about a case that really needs more attention. She created a show. It's called The Victim in Surprise and it tells the story of her friend Amal Baja, who was murdered in her home near Phoenix in twenty seventeen. The case remains unsolved and Eileen is working really hard to bring awareness and push for justice. So if you're looking for a powerful, personal true crime story, check out The Victim in Surprise and help to amplify Amal's story.

1:12:57 And you'll put a link to her show in our show notes. Absolutely, we have received a lot of nice emails and messages from listeners recently saying that they just appreciate the work that we do, and I just want to say thank you sincerely. We appreciate your support and your encouragement. It means so much to us it does. Please rate, review, follow and subscribe, Find us on social media and YouTube, or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. And please consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash Lovemrykill one tier five dollars a month for early ad free access and a monthly bonus episode. Until next time. Don't care a husband and don't kill your wife.

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