Dec. 1, 2025

Carmela and David Knight

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On a rainy evening in 2014, firefighters responded to a blaze at Carmela Knight’s home in the quiet suburb of Pickering. As neighbors watched in disbelief, Carmela’s family rushed to the scene, only to learn that David Knight and their two sons were safe at hockey practice, but a body had been found inside the garage.In the days that followed, loved ones feared the worst. And as investigators began piecing together the events of that night, early clues raised troubling questions. David insisted he had nothing to do with what happened. He had an alibi. But suspicion grew, leading detectives into a long, complex search for the truth behind Carmela’s death.

Today’s snacks: Reese’s Filled Pretzels and Sanders Sugar Cookie White Chocolate Sea Salt Caramels

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WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina.

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If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years

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of marriage.

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It's that some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill.

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Hey Tina, he rich? How are you to think?

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Great? How are you?

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I am doing really good. It is a busy time

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for us and for a lot of people. We're recording

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this on Saturday, November twenty second. Most of you will

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hear this on December first. I made a list of

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all the things that we've got coming up between now

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and then by the time people hear this. So, my

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lovely sister and her husband are currently winging their way

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from California to Michigan. Are probably over Kansas right now.

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Yeah, super excited to see them.

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Yeah, that'd be great. Our son will be coming home

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from college. He may be on his way home now,

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I don't know, but he will be. Our daughter will

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be coming home for a little bit. Well, has had

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a very nice Thanksgiving. I'm sure my birthday will have

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come and gone.

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Oh my gosh, you on your birthday? You did stop

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talking about it.

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It's very It's the most important day.

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Where can listeners send cash and.

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Yus Patreon dot com, slash love Mary Kill. That would

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be the best birthday give. But also the Lions will

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have won two games between now and then, including Thanksgiving

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against the Packers. Michigan will have won two games since then,

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including shocking the world, upsetting number one ranked Ohio State.

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It's oh is it almost at the end of the season.

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It's the weekend of my birthday. Comes back to my birthday, doesn't.

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Yeah, it really doesn't make a little sad whenever Michigan

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season didn't.

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Really it won't be over over because there will be

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Bowl games. Really number one, Yeah, they're number one. Wow.

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Yeah, when you've probably already finished your Christmas shopping, you

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forgot about that because you're so good at being on

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top of that.

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On my list, because I'm already done, right exactly. Yes, Well,

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I'm not really planning to do a lot in the

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next week, although it is Black Friday, I think in

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there somewhere, Yeah.

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I know a lot of people hate Black Friday, but

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it's hard not to take advantage of some of those deals.

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A lot of places, though, are starting their Black Friday

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shop and we're still calling a Black Friday, but saying

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these are our lowest Black Friday prices, which is really

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good to see.

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Yeah, that's helpful. Well, we hope that all of you

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who celebrate Thanksgiving had a really lovely time with family

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and friends.

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I think our international listeners that don't celebrate Thanksgiving are

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intrigued by Thanksgiving and how we celebrate and what we

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So hopefully I remember to post a picture of what

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we cooked. Yeah, and hopefully the cherry chip cake came

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and we ate it and it was amazing. Thank you

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so much to everyone that reached out with tips on

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where to find cherry chip cake. As far as I know,

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only one person saw it in a door, but other

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than that, it's available on eBay and Walmart dot com

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and I think Amazon dot com. But it's all from

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the same cellar this uh yeah, Canada grocery store.

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Yeah. It's funny how like things we talk about, you

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never know what's going to really capture people's imagination. And

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we've gotten so many notes about the cherry tipcake.

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Yeah, which is really nice because everyone wants you to

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have it.

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I know I appreciate it.

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As of today, it has not come and it has

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not shipped, so I'm not.

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Too optimistic, but I'm counting on you.

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I know, no pressure. I could just drive to Canada.

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Yeah that's true, all right. I am a little angry

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with you about a couple of things though. I wanted

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to bring up on the.

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Air, a couple of things on the R.

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No, it's it's the same thing. But I sent you

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two memes a few days ago that were really funny,

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and you haven't posted them on our social media. And

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whenever I send you a meme that I think is funny,

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you always look at it and say, ah, that I

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don't think it's that funny.

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So what you don't realize because I don't think you

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spend quite as much time on social media. A lot

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of times it's something that I have posted before, and

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I try not to repost things unless it's like, really funny.

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So one of them was something that I had posted before. Okay,

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And sometimes they're a little hackneyed, and again.

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That's just my sense of humor.

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I guess hackneyed. Yeah, I know, we know, we all know.

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Did you bring a snack for me today? I haven't

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eaten yet.

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Changing that I did, I worked really well.

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Oh wait, I'm sorry if you have other things that

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the laundry that you want to air. I'm sure there

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are many things that you could.

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I said two things, but it was just that I

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sent two memes, that's all. It was really the same thing.

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But well, I will post them if I can remember.

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I'll post them this week, and I'll I always want

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to tell people because I think it's cute the things

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you send me. Sometimes, like a lot of times, I

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will say, Rich told me to post this. What do

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you think? Yeah, sometimes it's like making fun of the wife,

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which is fair.

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Sure, Yeah, yeah, well I did. I worked really hard

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on these snacks today, got you some rieses filled pretzels that.

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I saved my appetite for that.

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And I brought you some Sanders sugar cookie white chocolate

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sea salt caramels.

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Ysh, Where do you find the time, Rich to do

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all this? Chopper?

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You bought both of these. Yes, you went out and

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bought some things, and I have run out of time.

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But I think these both look interesting. I think they're we're.

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Having Thanksgiving and our son is coming home. I did

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buy more streets and there's a lot of snacks in

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the cupboard. Yeah. I don't know if you've noticed. Yeah,

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but we are in generally trying, generally trying to eat healthier.

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But yeah, I am intrigued by the Reeses filled pretzels

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because anything reese Is I generally like, so I'm looking

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forward to trying those. And Sanders make some great caramels.

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I've never had this particular white chocolate sugar cookie kind, but.

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The Sanders dark chocolate sea salt caramels are my favorite.

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Yeah, They're really good. Let's give these a try. What

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did you think about the Reeses filled pretzels and the

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Sanders sugar cookie white chocolate caramels.

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Well, full disclosure, I bought the Riese's pretzels yesterday from Costco,

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and I always have to have I don't know if

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everyone does this, but I always have to rip open

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a bag on my way home. Of course, I didn't

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eat lunch, so I was really hungry. I like them

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a lot. The peanut butter is the Reese's peanut butter,

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so I thought they were a little sweet. But the

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pretzels I think are perfection.

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I like them, but I thought they were a little weird.

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Maybe it's the sweetness of the peanut butter. But I'm

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also to me Reese's. It indicates chocolate and peanut butter together,

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so the fact that it's just peanut butter is a

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little bit weird to me.

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I thought for a peanut butter pretzel, they're pretty good

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because there's a lot of varieties of those on the market,

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a lot of people are making them. The peanut butter

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was a little sweetly, yeah, but I thought they were

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I would give them probably a seven and a half

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out of ten.

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I'll give them a six and a half out of ten.

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Oh, Okay. The caramels I didn't really love because I

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like the chocolate ones so much. I would give them

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like a six out of ten.

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I definitely like the dark chocolate ones better. The white

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chocolate's a little bit or kind of sickly sweet sort

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of thing, but I'd give them seven out of ten.

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It's still very good.

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Yeah. This time of year, we're all thinking about Christmas

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and gifts. Sanders is a great Michigan based company that

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we love to support. S A N d Ers dot com.

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They have a lot of great gift ideas.

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Absolutely so when I'm researching the case, one of the

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things that I find most fascinating is when investigators have

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to get creative, you know, like situations where the police

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are convinced that they know who committed the crime, but

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they can't prove it, like they don't have the evidence

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to prove it, and so they start thinking outside of

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the box and doing very creative things, which can be brilliant,

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but it can also kind of cross a line between

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you know, ethics and legally uncertain areas. So this case

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features some of the most unusual, clever and maybe controversial

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police tactics that I've seen. So as you listen, I'll

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be curious to hear what you think whether investigators stayed

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on the right side of that line or did they

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go too far. It was a rainy Monday evening September fifteenth,

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twenty fourteen, in Pickering, a quiet lakeside suburb just outside

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of Toronto, when the first nine to one to one

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call came in at seven fifty pm. Flames were pouring

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from a two story home on Pebblestone Crescent. Inside that

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house lived thirty nine year old Carmela Knight, her husband David,

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and their two young sons. When the fire trucks arrived,

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neighbors ran outside in disbelief. Friends called Carmela's number again

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and again, but got no answer. Carmela's mom, Franka, heard

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about the fire and rushed over to find fire still

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licking the roof of the garage. The garage door stood open.

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She rushed toward it, just far enough to glimpse what

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looked like a body on the floor before police stopped her.

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Minutes later, Carmela's sister Nancy pulled up, desperate for answers.

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She tried calling David over and over, but he didn't

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pick up either. Eventually, Franka and Nancy learned that David

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and the boys were safe. They had been at hockey practice.

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Relief washed over them for a brief moment until they

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heard the rest firefighters had found a body inside the garage.

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It would take a couple of days to confirm the identity,

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but deep down, Franka, Nancy, and Carmela's friends already knew,

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and it didn't take long before they and investigators began

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to suspect David Knight had something to do with Carmela's death,

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but David had an airtight alibi. Getting to the truth

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would require months of persistence, creativity, and luck, and even then,

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there was no guarantee that justice would be served with.

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Seven fifty pm when the nine to one to one

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call comes in. Is it typical that David and the

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boys would be gone at this time? You said they

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were at hockey practice.

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Yeah, it was a normal thing, out of the ordinary,

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not out of the ordinary.

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And do you know how old the boys are?

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They were ten and twelve at this point. People who

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knew Carmela Augusta in college said that she was a sweetheart,

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completely genuine, with a heart of gold. If you met her,

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you instantly felt like friends. She loved to laugh and

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have fun, but even in her early twenties she knew

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what she wanted to get married and start a family.

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One night, when she was twenty three, she met the

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man who would help make her dream come true, David Knight.

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They met at a nightclub and hit her off right away.

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The next day, David sent her flowers to say how

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happy he was to have met her. Carmela was impressed.

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It wasn't often a guy sent flowers before the first date.

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It didn't take long for them to realize that they

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wanted to build a life together. They got engaged on

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Christmas Day and were married in a big Italian wedding

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in two thousand. A couple of years later, Carmela gave

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birth to a baby boy, and then a couple years

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after that, another boy. She was overjoyed. They eventually bought

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a beautiful four bedroom home in a quiet Pickering neighborhood

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just east of Toronto. David worked as a project manager

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in construction and did well together with Carmela's mother Franka.

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They even bought of a home in Indian Rocks Beach, Florida,

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a spot that they rented out when they weren't there themselves.

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As the boys grew they were active, riding dirt bikes

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and playing hockey. Carmela became the quintessential Canadian hockey mom, supportive, proud,

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always cheering from the stands. Life was good, or at

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least it seemed that way.

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What percentage of young Canadians do you think grow up

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on the ice playing hockey?

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Oh, gosh, I would have to imagine it would be

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like eighty percent.

239
00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:32.200
Yeah, hockey here because we're so close to Canadaeah is

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very popular too.

241
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It wasn't big when I grew up, and now it's yeah,

242
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it does seem to be really popular here. In twenty twelve,

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00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:41.679
twelve years into their marriage, while staying at the family's

244
00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:44.919
vacation home in Florida, David Knight met a woman named

245
00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:48.360
Jill Hartman at a bar in Saint Petersburg. He told

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her he was divorced, and the two began a relationship.

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It didn't take long for Carmela to sense that something

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00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:59.320
was wrong. David started acting differently, working late, going out more,

249
00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:03.440
taking more frequent work trips, and getting strange phone calls.

250
00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:06.840
I'm not sure if David went to It sounds like

251
00:12:06.879 --> 00:12:09.320
he went to Florida often on his own, and I'm

252
00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:11.519
not sure if there was a business reason for that.

253
00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:14.840
He was in construction. I think he may have been

254
00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:17.720
looking at starting a business in Florida.

255
00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:20.840
And it seems out of here in Toronto to go

256
00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:22.440
work on a job in Florida.

257
00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:25.440
It's I think they had maybe they had some connections

258
00:12:25.480 --> 00:12:27.480
there or something, but it seemed like Florida was a

259
00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:33.000
regular destination for him. When Carmela confronted him, David eventually

260
00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:35.799
broke down and admitted that he had been having an affair.

261
00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:40.200
He seemed genuinely remorseful, promising to end it and agreeing

262
00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:44.080
to attend marriage counseling. Carmela had even started drafting a

263
00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:47.960
separation agreement, but decided to give him another chance. For

264
00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:51.440
a while, it looked like he might actually be trying. Then,

265
00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:54.759
in June twenty fourteen, Carmela found a thumb drive in

266
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David's car. When she plugged it into her computer. What

267
00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:01.960
she saw left her stunned. Nude and suggestive photos of

268
00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:05.159
a woman, including one of David kissing her on the cheek.

269
00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:08.679
It turned out the affair hadn't ended after all. That

270
00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:12.240
was it. Carmela told David she was filing for divorce.

271
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He begged her for another chance, but she refused. In anger,

272
00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:20.039
he smashed their wedding photo. While Carmela was hoping for

273
00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:24.519
an amicable split, things quickly turned ugly. David started telling

274
00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:29.360
other hockey parents that Carmela was staying out late, taking drugs, gambling,

275
00:13:29.480 --> 00:13:32.799
and seeing another man. Her friends knew that every word

276
00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:36.360
of that was a lie. When Carmela's mother, Franka, learned

277
00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:39.720
the divorce was coming, she confronted David about the vacation

278
00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:43.919
home in Florida. She Carmela and David had all contributed

279
00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:47.000
to buying it in twenty eleven, but when Franka checked

280
00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:51.799
the title, only David's name was listed. No way, somehow

281
00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:55.559
hers and Carmela's names had been removed before the title

282
00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:58.120
had been registered. I think when they filled out the

283
00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:01.679
whatever paperwork you need to write the title, all of

284
00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:03.720
their names were there, and then David took it in

285
00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:05.159
and crossed their names out.

286
00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:05.799
Wow.

287
00:14:06.200 --> 00:14:09.240
David promised Franka that he would fix it, but instead

288
00:14:09.399 --> 00:14:14.000
he quietly transferred ownership of the home to his brother, Matthew. Meanwhile,

289
00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:18.039
the Knight's finances were collapsing. David, who had either moved

290
00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:20.120
out or was sleeping in a separate room. I read

291
00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:23.360
two different accounts. He had stopped paying the mortgage, and

292
00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:26.120
he had also stopped helping with the boys, who were

293
00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:29.440
ten and twelve. Carmela confided in a friend that she

294
00:14:29.639 --> 00:14:32.279
was drowning in debt and didn't know how she'd recover.

295
00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:34.759
Did Carmela work outside of the home.

296
00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:37.320
She did. She had a job at a bank. I'm

297
00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:39.600
not sure exactly what she did, but yes, she worked

298
00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:43.120
at a bank. Carmela's attorney filed for an emergency motion

299
00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:46.240
for custody and support. The hearing to decide on that

300
00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:50.759
motion was set for Thursday. September eighteenth, twenty fourteen. That

301
00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:54.600
was three days after the fire that killed Carmela. Just

302
00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:58.879
days earlier, on Saturday, September thirteenth, Carmela confided in a

303
00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:01.639
friend at her son's hockey game that she was growing

304
00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:05.559
increasingly afraid of David. He had become more aggressive and

305
00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:08.039
she feared that if things got worse, he might try

306
00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:10.440
to kill her. The friend, who happened to be a

307
00:15:10.440 --> 00:15:14.279
Toronto police officer, was alarmed. He urged her to contact

308
00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:18.120
her local police in Durham, but Carmela was reluctant. She

309
00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:21.000
didn't want to escalate things. She just wanted to move

310
00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:23.039
on with her life and be done with David.

311
00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:27.519
Just two nights after that alarming conversation, Pickering was draped

312
00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:30.519
in drizzle when smoke began pouring from the roof of

313
00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:34.519
the Knight's home on Pebblestone Crescent. Fire trucks raced to

314
00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:39.399
the scene just before eight. Carmela's friend and neighbor, Anna Connolly,

315
00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:43.159
ran outside as sirens wailed down the street. Seeing the

316
00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:46.600
glow from the Knight's garage, her heart pounded. She didn't

317
00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:49.919
know if Carmela, David, or the boys were inside. She

318
00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:54.120
called Carmela's phone again and again with no answer. Hoping

319
00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:58.200
they were together, she called Carmela's mother, Franca, but Franka

320
00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:01.360
hadn't seen her at all that day. When Anna told

321
00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:04.559
her what was happening, Franka grabbed her keys and sped

322
00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:09.200
toward the house. Inside the garage, firefighter Steve Grubbitch was

323
00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:13.519
knocking down small spotfires and the poor visibility, he tripped

324
00:16:13.519 --> 00:16:16.120
over something and fell to the floor of the garage.

325
00:16:16.360 --> 00:16:19.200
He turned his flashlight toward the object he had tripped

326
00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:22.679
over and froze. Lying there was what appeared to be

327
00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:26.919
a badly burned body. By the time Franka arrived, the

328
00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:30.120
flames were mostly out, but the garage roof still hissed

329
00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:33.639
with smoke. She ran toward the open garage door, glimpsed

330
00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:36.480
the shape on the floor, and was stopped by police

331
00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:39.360
before she could get any closer. Why would they just

332
00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:40.399
leave her body there?

333
00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:42.720
I think they were still in the middle of trying

334
00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:45.279
to get the fire completely out, so they probably just

335
00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:49.120
hadn't been able to do anything yet to cover up

336
00:16:49.159 --> 00:16:51.399
the body or to remove it at that point.

337
00:16:51.559 --> 00:16:53.639
But they knew that she was there, they had discovered her.

338
00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:56.519
I think they had probably just discovered her shortly before

339
00:16:56.559 --> 00:16:57.480
Franka arrived.

340
00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:02.320
Carmelo's sister, Nancy, arrived moments later, frantic trying to reach David,

341
00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:05.240
but he wasn't answering his cell phone. Terrified that the

342
00:17:05.279 --> 00:17:08.480
whole family may have been inside, Franka and Nancy were

343
00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:12.000
escorted to the police station to wait for news. Their

344
00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:15.000
officers told them that David and the boys were safe.

345
00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:18.039
The police had gotten in touch with David. They'd been

346
00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:21.000
at hockey practice in Toronto when the fire broke out.

347
00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:24.599
Relief washed over them for a moment until they heard

348
00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:27.400
the news there had indeed been a body found in

349
00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:31.200
the garage. Dental records would be needed for confirmation, but

350
00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:35.160
Franka and Nancy already knew. Just the day before, Carmela

351
00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:38.160
had been helping Nancy plan her wedding, and now she

352
00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:42.359
was gone. It seemed surreal. Not long after David arrived

353
00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:45.039
at the station with the boys, he left the children

354
00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:47.680
in the car with his father while he spoke with police.

355
00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:52.079
When told that officers found a body, as yet unidentified,

356
00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:57.160
he broke down, crying. Officers noted that his grief seemed genuine. Later,

357
00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:00.279
David told the boys that their mother was gone. Their

358
00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.640
younger son, Dylan would later recall the anguish in his

359
00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:06.880
father's voice as he wept. At first, Franka and Nancy

360
00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:10.559
tried to come up with an innocent explanation. Carmela sometimes

361
00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:13.039
went out to the garage for a smoke with dirt

362
00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:17.079
bikes and gas can story there could something have accidentally ignited,

363
00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:21.480
but investigators quickly realized this was no accident. Carmela's body

364
00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:25.079
told a different story. She had a tourniquet wrapped around

365
00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:28.559
her arm and a syringe lying nearby. It looked like

366
00:18:28.599 --> 00:18:32.799
a possible drug overdose, but her family and friends immediately

367
00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:37.039
dismissed this idea. Carmela wasn't a drug user. She barely

368
00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:39.920
even drink a glass of wine now and then. The

369
00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:43.960
autopsy raised even more questions. Beneath her charred skin, the

370
00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:48.880
tissue underneath was largely intact, revealing grim details. Carmela had

371
00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:53.000
facial injuries consistent with blunt force trauma and the cause

372
00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:57.599
of death strangulation from neck compression. She had been murdered

373
00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:01.480
before the fire was set. Lab tests added one final twist.

374
00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:06.119
The syringe contained traces of cocaine, but toxicology showed no

375
00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:09.960
drugs in Carmela's system. Whoever killed her had tried to

376
00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:12.359
stage the scene to make it look like she'd been

377
00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:13.599
using drugs.

378
00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:16.759
A very strange scene. The whole thing is just odd.

379
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:21.079
The fire, the tourniquet around her arm, the syringe cocaine

380
00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:23.400
is just kind of an odd you know, just an

381
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:25.319
odd set of circumstances.

382
00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:28.200
Well, especially the tourniquet. Do you have any explanation for that.

383
00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:29.559
We'll talk a little more about that.

384
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:33.160
Investigators quickly learned that Carmela and David's marriage had been

385
00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:37.400
falling apart. David described as separation as amicable, but Carmela's

386
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:41.000
friends and family told a different story. Detectives needed to

387
00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:44.480
verify his alibi. David said he left the house around

388
00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:47.880
three thirty that afternoon with the boys. They grabbed McDonald's,

389
00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:51.000
then drove to Toronto for hockey practice, which ran from

390
00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:52.759
six thirty to eight pm.

391
00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:55.039
I just want to make one talent around the timeline here.

392
00:19:55.119 --> 00:19:57.119
I know that he left the house at three thirty.

393
00:19:57.440 --> 00:19:59.759
I know he went to McDonald's. I don't know why

394
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:03.119
it was three hours between the pot bens and the occupractice.

395
00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:04.880
I'm not sure if they did other things in there,

396
00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:08.200
but it seemed like you know. Whatever his story was,

397
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:09.559
the timing did check out.

398
00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:12.960
Carmela had come home from her banking job around five pm,

399
00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:16.400
and the fire started sometime after seven point thirty. If

400
00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:19.839
David's story checked out, he couldn't have been at the scene.

401
00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:24.119
Police interviewed other hockey parents who saw David there, skating

402
00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:26.319
around and helping on the ice as he often did.

403
00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:30.319
Surveillance footage from the rink confirmed it David was exactly

404
00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:34.200
where he said he was. Then came an intriguing clue.

405
00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:37.480
The Knights didn't have video surveillance, but their alarm system

406
00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:42.079
recorded interior door activity between three point thirty when David

407
00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:46.559
left and five when Carmela arrived home. Several interior door

408
00:20:46.680 --> 00:20:51.000
sensors were triggered, meaning someone had been inside moving around.

409
00:20:51.559 --> 00:20:54.960
Had someone been lying in wait for her? Another intriguing

410
00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:58.359
detail came from Franca. She told police that just days

411
00:20:58.359 --> 00:21:01.480
before the fire, a strange had appeared at the house.

412
00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:04.680
Carmela was in the backyard when this man suddenly looked

413
00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:07.319
over the fence and asked for David. She told him

414
00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:11.319
David wasn't home. The man just laughed, turned and walked away.

415
00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:15.039
Carmela ran inside, looking out the front window, just in

416
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:18.200
time to see him climb into a black suv and

417
00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:22.000
drive off. She didn't recognize him, but the encounter left

418
00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:25.000
her shaken. When she told David about it, he brushed

419
00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:29.119
it off, but then immediately began acting paranoid, setting the

420
00:21:29.160 --> 00:21:31.400
alarm that night for the first time in a while.

421
00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:36.359
With David's alibi seemingly airtight, investigators turned to Carmela's circle

422
00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:40.240
for insight. Did she have enemies a secret life that

423
00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:43.000
could explain her murder. No one could think of a

424
00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:47.640
single person who disliked her. Everyone described her as warm, generous,

425
00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:51.480
and kind. In October, hundreds of mourners packed into a

426
00:21:51.559 --> 00:21:55.640
Pickering church for a celebration of Carmela's life. The sanctuary

427
00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:58.920
held six hundred people and every seat was taken, with

428
00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:03.039
others standing. Again. He's the back wall, conspicuously absent, though

429
00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:05.839
we're David and the Boys. Members of the boys' hockey

430
00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:08.799
team came in their jerseys to support the family, but

431
00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:12.000
David told team officials he wouldn't be there with his sons.

432
00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:14.519
He said it wouldn't be a safe environment for them.

433
00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:16.960
I have no idea what that means why he would

434
00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:18.559
have made that comment, but I.

435
00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:21.759
Was trying to imply that whoever killed his wife was

436
00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:23.119
probably looking for him too.

437
00:22:23.880 --> 00:22:26.200
Yeah, I suppose, so that's ridiculous.

438
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:28.720
Yes, we'll be back after a break.

439
00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:38.920
As detectives followed up on the lead about the man

440
00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:41.920
in the black SUV, a new tip came in, one

441
00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:45.240
that changed everything. It came from David's sister in law,

442
00:22:45.319 --> 00:22:49.240
Heather Knight, who was married to David's brother, Matthew. Matthew

443
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:52.400
had been living in Florida since early September doing some

444
00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:55.440
work for David, and he returned to Canada just a

445
00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:59.279
few days before Carmela was killed. Then only two days

446
00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:02.720
after the murder, he abruptly left Canada and went back

447
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:03.519
to Florida.

448
00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:05.279
Remind me what they did in Florida.

449
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:08.440
They had a vacation home there, and I believe David

450
00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:11.920
was also doing some work there or looking to start

451
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:15.640
a business there. He was in construction, he did project management,

452
00:23:15.880 --> 00:23:18.160
and I think maybe he was looking to Florida as

453
00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:22.160
a new business opportunity. Gotcha, when he left Canada to

454
00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:24.880
go back to Florida to Heather his wife, it felt

455
00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:27.519
like he was running away and that he didn't plan

456
00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:30.240
to come back. But what truly haunted her were the

457
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:34.519
words he said before leaving. I know who, what, when, where,

458
00:23:34.599 --> 00:23:37.400
and how. Matthew told her with one phone call, I

459
00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:39.400
could have stopped this and I have to live with

460
00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:41.559
that for the rest of my life. And then he

461
00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:45.400
broke down in tears. He added, maybe twenty or thirty

462
00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:47.720
years down the road, when we're on a beach somewhere,

463
00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:50.480
I'll tell you everything. But I can't now. I don't

464
00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:53.599
want you to be in that position. Detectives were stunned

465
00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:56.960
when they asked Hoather about his behavior and activities on

466
00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:59.119
the night of the fire. She said that they had

467
00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:01.960
been together all day. There was no way that Matthew

468
00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:05.480
could have killed Carmela himself. But later that night, as

469
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:08.480
soon as Matthew heard about the fire, he suddenly rushed

470
00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:11.119
out of the house. Heather assumed that he had gone

471
00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:14.240
to see his brother, but then David called her asking

472
00:24:14.279 --> 00:24:17.559
if she'd seen Matthew, so clearly the brothers weren't together.

473
00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:20.680
Heather later found out that Matthew had gone to visit

474
00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:24.559
a friend named Graham McDonald. Why in the middle of

475
00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:27.240
a family tragedy would he run to see a friend.

476
00:24:27.799 --> 00:24:31.400
Investigators needed to find out who Graham McDonald was and

477
00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:35.079
what he knew. Graham, McDonald and Matthew Knight had met

478
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:38.359
while working at a company called Hot Sets, which builds

479
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:42.119
custom film and TV sets. They became friends, and eventually

480
00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:45.759
Matthew introduced Graham to his brother David. Graham was a

481
00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:48.880
handyman who took on odd jobs, and David needed work

482
00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:52.400
done around his house. Graham helped out, and before long

483
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:55.519
he and David struck up a friendship as well. When

484
00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:58.559
detectives brought Graham in for questioning, they asked where he

485
00:24:58.599 --> 00:25:00.680
had been the day of the fire. He said that

486
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:03.759
he'd gone to visit his grandmother in Toronto, but she

487
00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:06.799
hadn't been home. After that, he claimed, he took the

488
00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:10.079
Go train back to Pickering and walked nearly an hour

489
00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:13.119
to Moody's motel, where he was staying at the time.

490
00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:18.400
Investigators pulled surveillance footage from his grandmother's apartment complex, there

491
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:21.039
was no sign of him. They also checked the Go

492
00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:25.039
train video from that same day and again nothing. That's

493
00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:28.519
when detectives began to wonder, during all those days Graham

494
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:31.640
had spent working at the Knight's home, had he perhaps

495
00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:35.400
developed some kind of fixation on Carmela. They brought him

496
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:38.279
back in for another interview and confronted him about his

497
00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:41.799
shaky alibi. Graham insisted that he had been in Toronto,

498
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:44.720
but admitted that his memory was fuzzy. He said he

499
00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:48.000
had smoked crack and taken a couple of percocets that night,

500
00:25:48.279 --> 00:25:51.599
and things were hazy. As the questions kept coming, Graham

501
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:55.000
grew defensive. Finally he pushed back from the table and

502
00:25:55.039 --> 00:25:58.079
said he was done talking, and then he walked out.

503
00:25:58.440 --> 00:26:01.799
So this Graham MacDonald is kind of a shifty character.

504
00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:05.519
He's living at this cheap motel, he doesn't have a home.

505
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:09.319
He's sort of almost a drifter in a way, doing

506
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:12.920
odd jobs for people. So definitely someone that caught the

507
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:18.119
attention of investigators. Meanwhile, investigators headed to Florida. There were

508
00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:21.119
two people they needed to talk to, David's brother, Matthew

509
00:26:21.160 --> 00:26:25.519
Knight and his alleged girlfriend, Jill Hartman. Jill was cooperative.

510
00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:28.039
She told them that she and David had met at

511
00:26:28.079 --> 00:26:30.480
a bar about a year and a half earlier, and

512
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:33.119
that he had told her that he was divorced. She

513
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:36.160
said she knew nothing about his life in Canada, only

514
00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:38.680
that when he was in Florida. The two spent a

515
00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:42.279
lot of time together. I would consider it boyfriend and girlfriend,

516
00:26:42.359 --> 00:26:45.079
she said, but I don't know how serious. He lived

517
00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:48.119
there and I lived here. It became clear that David

518
00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:50.920
Knight had been living a double life. Do you think

519
00:26:50.920 --> 00:26:54.359
it's unusual that this woman is dating this guy in Florida,

520
00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:56.680
but he lives in Toronto? And I don't know how

521
00:26:56.720 --> 00:26:59.880
often he was in Florida, but he must have been

522
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:02.480
fairly regularly. But she didn't seem to know anything about

523
00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:05.799
his life in Toronto, didn't seem that curious about it,

524
00:27:05.799 --> 00:27:07.559
even though she considered him her boyfriend.

525
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:10.440
Well, do you think it's odd that a young woman

526
00:27:10.599 --> 00:27:14.200
from Illinois was dating an older man from Michigan.

527
00:27:15.079 --> 00:27:18.680
Maybe a long distance relationships happened. But you knew what

528
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:20.799
I did in Michigan, and I knew what you did

529
00:27:20.839 --> 00:27:23.880
in Illinois. It's like we knew about each other's lives

530
00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:24.480
pretty much.

531
00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:25.000
Yeah.

532
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:29.039
Matthew, on the other hand, wasn't nearly as forthcoming. Detectives

533
00:27:29.079 --> 00:27:31.559
went to his house in Florida but got no answer.

534
00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:34.839
When they finally reached him by phone, he was defensive

535
00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:38.400
and dismissive. He insisted that the story his wife, Heather

536
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:41.039
had told them was made up. She was just trying

537
00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:43.640
to cause trouble, he said. He told them he had

538
00:27:43.640 --> 00:27:46.799
no intention of returning to Canada, and then he hung up.

539
00:27:47.319 --> 00:27:51.640
Back in Ontario, Carmela's mother, Franka, was growing increasingly frustrated.

540
00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:55.519
From her perspective, weeks had passed with little progress in

541
00:27:55.559 --> 00:27:59.359
the investigation. She didn't know the inner workings of the investigation,

542
00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:02.400
only that her daughter was gone and no one had

543
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:03.400
been held accountable.

544
00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:06.559
But detectives weren't giving up. They tried to speak with

545
00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:10.839
David again, but he refused to cooperate, and quickly lawyered up.

546
00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:14.680
Look into his finances told a troubling story. He was

547
00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:17.640
drowning in debt and had stopped paying the mortgage on

548
00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:21.440
the family home, and the pressure was mounting. Just three

549
00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:25.039
days after Carmela's death, a cord hearing had been scheduled

550
00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:29.119
to determined custody and support payments, a proceeding that would

551
00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:33.440
have made David's financial situation even worse. Then there was

552
00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:36.359
the mysterious man in the black suv, the one who

553
00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:41.599
had frightened Carmela shortly before the fire. Investigators eventually identified

554
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:45.640
him as David's former business partner who claimed that David

555
00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:49.079
had stolen two hundred thousand dollars from him. The money

556
00:28:49.160 --> 00:28:51.839
had been meant to start a construction company, but the

557
00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:54.920
business never got off the ground, and David had been

558
00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:58.880
dodging his calls ever since. The man admitted he'd gone

559
00:28:58.920 --> 00:29:01.839
to the house that day today confront David, not Carmela,

560
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:06.160
and police concluded that he had no role in her death. Still,

561
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:10.000
it was another window into David's crumbling finances and growing

562
00:29:10.039 --> 00:29:14.000
list of enemies. And then came another revelation. David had

563
00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:18.480
taken out two life insurance policies on Carmela, totaling eight

564
00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:21.880
hundred and fifty thousand dollars. It was more than enough

565
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:26.359
to establish motive, but not proof. Investigators were certain David

566
00:29:26.440 --> 00:29:29.319
Knight had a hand in his wife's death. What they

567
00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:32.359
didn't have yet was evidence to tie him to it.

568
00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:37.240
By December, three months after Carmela's murder, detective secured approval

569
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.000
to tap David Knight's phone. What they heard only deepened

570
00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:44.880
their suspicions. David was planning a fresh start. He talked

571
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:47.839
with family about moving to Florida, describing the house he

572
00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:50.440
wanted to buy close to good schools with a big

573
00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:53.400
backyard for the boys, so he had custody of the

574
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:57.160
boys after Carmela's death. They also learned that around the

575
00:29:57.200 --> 00:30:00.119
time of Carmela's death, David had been trying to buy

576
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:04.200
a construction company in Florida for nine hundred thousand dollars,

577
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:07.519
but his finances were a mess and a payment deadline

578
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:10.640
was fast approaching. If he missed it, the deal would

579
00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:13.920
fall apart. The pressure was mounting from all sides.

580
00:30:14.119 --> 00:30:16.000
He was going to buy a construction company for nine

581
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:19.279
hundred thousand dollars. He had life insurance on his wife

582
00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:22.319
for eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars, a very similar amount.

583
00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:25.200
Do you know if the insurance policies paid out.

584
00:30:25.480 --> 00:30:27.519
I don't know for sure, but I think because there

585
00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:30.720
was an active investigation and her death was labeled homicide,

586
00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:33.480
that I'm guessing that they did not pay out until

587
00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:34.839
the investigation was done.

588
00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:38.920
Early in the investigation, authorities had seized David's passport to

589
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:41.680
prevent him from leaving the country, but phone calls he

590
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:45.000
exchanged in December with Jill Hartman, his girlfriend in Florida,

591
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:48.079
made it clear he intended to go anyway. He talked

592
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:52.240
about making arrangements for his kids and even his dog. Alarmed,

593
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:56.039
detectives discovered that David had simply gone to the passport office,

594
00:30:56.240 --> 00:30:59.359
claimed he'd lost his passport of the gym and been

595
00:30:59.440 --> 00:30:59.920
issued a.

596
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:02.680
One the second time. We did another case a while

597
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:05.799
ago where somebody did that. It just it boggles my mind.

598
00:31:05.960 --> 00:31:08.279
This is Canada and not the US. But how easy

599
00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:11.440
it is to get a new passport like after the police.

600
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:13.400
Have Well this was at least ten years ago, so

601
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:16.799
maybe it's not as easy today. On the evening of

602
00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:21.079
December fourteenth, investigators intercepted a call between David and a

603
00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:26.119
private pilot named Bessam al Saraj. David was trying to

604
00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:30.400
charter a plane to Florida immediately. Assam found one leaving

605
00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:34.480
the next morning. The price was steep, fifteen thousand dollars.

606
00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:38.279
David wired the money that night. Police knew that if

607
00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:41.359
he got on that plane, justice might slip away for good.

608
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:44.359
They didn't yet have enough evidence to arrest him, but

609
00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:48.319
they could stop him from fleeing. They contacted Toronto police,

610
00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:51.960
who sent an officer racing to the airport. When David arrived,

611
00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:55.480
dog and luggage in tow the officer approached and said,

612
00:31:55.640 --> 00:31:58.799
I'm seizing your passport on behalf of the government of Canada.

613
00:31:59.480 --> 00:32:01.400
David's plan was spoiled.

614
00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:03.240
And by the way, he never got his fifteen thousand

615
00:32:03.240 --> 00:32:03.799
dollars back.

616
00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:06.359
I didn't think so. If he had gotten to Florida, though,

617
00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:09.039
wouldn't he have been extradited pretty quickly back?

618
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:11.440
He could be, for sure, but I think it would

619
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:13.519
have just made the investigation more difficult.

620
00:32:14.839 --> 00:32:18.559
By January twenty fifteen, investigators were convinced that David Knight,

621
00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:22.400
Graham MacDonald, and possibly Matthew Knite were all involved in

622
00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:25.599
Carmelo's murder, but none of the three men were talking,

623
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:29.079
and without solid evidence, the case was at a standstill.

624
00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:33.119
Detectives believed David had likely hired Graham to carry out

625
00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:35.960
the crime, but at that point it was only a theory.

626
00:32:36.279 --> 00:32:39.519
They needed to take bold action, so they decided to

627
00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:44.880
launch an undercover operation one targeting Graham McDonald. Graham was

628
00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:48.400
a drug user with no fixed address by this time,

629
00:32:48.519 --> 00:32:51.240
living out of a cheap motel in Port Hope, about

630
00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:55.960
forty five minutes from Pickering. Investigators knew he wasn't the mastermind.

631
00:32:56.279 --> 00:33:01.079
He was vulnerable and possibly susceptible to deception, enter an

632
00:33:01.160 --> 00:33:03.839
undercover officer whom Will called Joe.

633
00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:07.480
His real name and undercover name have never been revealed

634
00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:09.880
to maintain his anonymity, so I just gave him the

635
00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:10.960
name Joe Okay.

636
00:33:11.240 --> 00:33:14.920
Joe's mission was simple, befront Graham. Joe check did it

637
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:18.240
the same hotel, and one night in the bar, accidentally

638
00:33:18.359 --> 00:33:22.079
spilled his beer near Graham. It sparked a casual conversation

639
00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:25.279
and then another round of drinks. The two men hit

640
00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:28.880
it off, and before long they were drinking buddies. Once

641
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:31.640
Joe had earned Graham's trust, he told him he sometimes

642
00:33:31.640 --> 00:33:35.400
did small time criminal work, moving stolen goods, that kind

643
00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:38.039
of thing, and he asked Graham if he wanted in.

644
00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:42.440
Graham said sure. As the friendship grew, Graham began to

645
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:45.160
open up, he mentioned that police were looking at him

646
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:48.759
for a murder and pickering a few months earlier. Joe

647
00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:50.799
told him that he might be able to help. He

648
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:55.240
knew people, connected people. One of them, he explained, specialized

649
00:33:55.279 --> 00:34:00.680
in making legal problems disappear. His name uncle Dan, but

650
00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:04.279
in Canadian police parlance he was known by another name,

651
00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:09.119
mister Big. Not Carrie Bradshaw's mister Biggs, though, no, let's

652
00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:13.159
go down a quick rabbit hole. Mister Big operations are

653
00:34:13.159 --> 00:34:18.960
a uniquely Canadian police tactic. Elaborate, expensive, and controversial. They're

654
00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:23.079
designed to extract confessions from suspects when investigators don't have

655
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:26.719
enough physical evidence to charge them. This method dates back

656
00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:30.639
to nineteen sixty five when the Royal Canadian Mounted Police

657
00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:36.199
the RCMP. We're investigating a former Vancouver Police constable suspected

658
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:39.760
of stealing one point two million dollars in canceled currency.

659
00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:44.360
Two undercover officers posed as members of a violent crime ring.

660
00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:48.360
They befriended the suspect and eventually drew out a confession.

661
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:52.760
He was convicted and the tactic was born. Over the decades,

662
00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:57.079
mister Big became one of Canadian detective's signature tools, but

663
00:34:57.199 --> 00:35:00.360
also one of its most disputed. The tactic has led

664
00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:04.280
to several wrongful convictions. Here are two of the most

665
00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:09.280
notorious examples. First, the Andy Rose case from British Columbia.

666
00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:13.800
In nineteen eighty three, German tourists Andrea Sharp and Burned

667
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:18.119
Gordikey were murdered near Shetwand did I say that right?

668
00:35:18.920 --> 00:35:21.639
A town nestled in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains.

669
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:26.760
Years later, Andy Roskin was convicted twice based almost entirely

670
00:35:26.760 --> 00:35:29.480
on the testimony of a single witness who claimed she

671
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:31.639
saw him drunk and covered in blood the night of

672
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:36.199
the killings. Both convictions were overturned on technicalities, and doubts

673
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:39.760
deepened when another man in California confessed to his wife

674
00:35:39.880 --> 00:35:43.800
that he was the real killer before taking his own life. Still,

675
00:35:43.880 --> 00:35:47.519
the RCMP wasn't ready to give up. They still believed

676
00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:50.880
Andy Rose was the killer. In nineteen ninety nine, desperate

677
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:54.639
for a confession, they launched a Mister Big sting. Undercover

678
00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:58.719
officers posed as members of a criminal gang and befriended

679
00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:02.719
Rose for months, drawing him into their world. Eventually they

680
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:07.159
introduced him to the crime boss, mister Big himself. After

681
00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:11.079
a few drinks and relentless pressure, Rose gave the confession

682
00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:15.239
they wanted, but years later DNA evidence cleared him. The

683
00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:19.000
case collapsed, and the operation was widely criticized as an

684
00:36:19.039 --> 00:36:22.320
example of how far mister Big tactics could go in

685
00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:27.079
manufacturing a confession rather than uncovering the truth. The second

686
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:30.519
example is the Nelson Hart case from Newfounderland. In two

687
00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:34.679
thousand two, Heart's twin daughters, Christa and Karen drowned when

688
00:36:34.679 --> 00:36:37.559
they fell from a wharf in Little Harbor. Hart, who

689
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:41.199
had epilepsy in only a fourth grade education, said one

690
00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:44.280
child fell in and he ran for help because he

691
00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:48.920
couldn't swim. When rescuers arrived, both girls had drowned. The

692
00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:52.639
police weren't buying his version of events. To get a confession,

693
00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:56.519
they built an elaborate Mister Big sting officers posed as

694
00:36:56.719 --> 00:37:00.679
part of a nationwide crime ring, showering Heart with friendship,

695
00:37:01.039 --> 00:37:04.440
luxury trips, meals, and cash. They gave him a sense

696
00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:08.440
of belonging he'd never had before. Eventually, Heart was introduced

697
00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:11.199
to the boss, mister Big, who told him he needed

698
00:37:11.239 --> 00:37:15.159
to clean up his past before joining the organization. Feeling

699
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:18.360
pressure to impress his new friends and terrified of losing

700
00:37:18.440 --> 00:37:22.159
their approval, Heart confessed to pushing his daughters into the water,

701
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:25.679
even re enacting the crime on video, and he was

702
00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:29.000
convicted of murder. But in twenty fourteen, the Supreme Court

703
00:37:29.039 --> 00:37:32.719
of Canada overturned the verdict, ruling that confessions from mister

704
00:37:32.800 --> 00:37:37.000
Big operations are presumptively inadmissible. The court found that the

705
00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:41.440
tactics created a risk of false confessions, especially for vulnerable

706
00:37:41.480 --> 00:37:44.719
individuals like heart. As of two thousand and eight, the

707
00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:47.199
Mister Big technique has been used in more than three

708
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:51.440
hundred fifty investigations across Canada. It's still legal today, but

709
00:37:51.559 --> 00:37:55.079
heavily restricted. There are two key requirements to make a

710
00:37:55.159 --> 00:37:59.599
mister Big operation admissible in court. First, prosecutors must prove

711
00:37:59.639 --> 00:38:03.320
that any confession obtained is reliable, and second that the

712
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:08.079
police methods used wouldn't bring the administration of justice into disrepute.

713
00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:11.679
The second part essentially means that police can't use tactics

714
00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:15.159
that are so unfair, abusive, or deceptive that they would

715
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:19.159
make the justice system look bad or untrustworthy, for example,

716
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:23.519
threatening or coercing the suspect, using violence or extreme intimidation,

717
00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:27.280
or generally behaving in ways that shock the conscience or

718
00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:31.000
make the public think the justice system is dirty or corrupt.

719
00:38:31.639 --> 00:38:35.599
Outside Canada, the Mister Big practice is largely banned. The

720
00:38:35.719 --> 00:38:39.280
United States, the United Kingdom, and several other countries prohibit

721
00:38:39.400 --> 00:38:43.800
or severely limit the use of mister Big style operations.

722
00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:45.800
Now, that was a bit of a long rabbit hole,

723
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:48.199
but a I found it really interesting. I think it's

724
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:53.039
a really interesting tactic and it's very uniquely Canadian. But

725
00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:55.639
also it's very relevant for the rest of the story.

726
00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:59.000
And I find it interesting that these operations are usually

727
00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:02.159
very elaborate, like they involve a lot of people. They

728
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:05.440
involve these like kind of wild stories that they draw

729
00:39:05.559 --> 00:39:09.280
somebody into, and it can definitely be, you know, something

730
00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:11.679
where they extract a confession that isn't real, And I

731
00:39:11.719 --> 00:39:13.679
think that's the that's the risk here is that you

732
00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:18.119
get somebody so in, you know, entrenched, and you become

733
00:39:18.199 --> 00:39:20.440
friends with them, and they'll be willing to say things

734
00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:22.199
just to stay in that inner circle.

735
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:23.519
Yeah, it is crazy.

736
00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:32.960
We'll be back after a break. Let's get back to Graham,

737
00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:37.360
Joe and Uncle Dan. Once Joe learned about Graham's legal troubles,

738
00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:40.119
he offered to introduce him to a fixer, Uncle Dan,

739
00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:44.360
a man who supposedly made problems disappear. The meeting was

740
00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:47.159
set in an ice fishing shanty on a frozen lake.

741
00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:50.000
On the drive there, Joe and Graham were pulled over.

742
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:53.119
It looked like a routine traffic stop, but it had

743
00:39:53.159 --> 00:39:56.679
been staged by the undercover team meant to rattle Graham.

744
00:39:57.039 --> 00:39:59.840
The officer made a point of letting Graham overhear the

745
00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:02.480
radio when he ran his name and was told that

746
00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:05.719
he was a suspect in a murder investigation. After a

747
00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:09.280
tense pause, the cop let them go with a warning. Shaken,

748
00:40:09.559 --> 00:40:12.159
Graham and Joe pressed on to the shanty, which was

749
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:16.039
wired for sound. As detectives listened from the shore. While

750
00:40:16.039 --> 00:40:19.239
they sat on the ice, Uncle Dan asked about Graham's problem.

751
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:23.599
Graham hesitated, they're starting to throw my name around. He said,

752
00:40:23.800 --> 00:40:25.880
I don't know if they're using me as a scapegoat.

753
00:40:26.360 --> 00:40:29.000
Uncle Dan jumped in, So are you telling me you

754
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:31.440
had nothing to do with this? Whatsoever? Are you telling

755
00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:35.159
me that? Graham paused and shook his head. I can't.

756
00:40:35.559 --> 00:40:39.400
Uncle Dan pressed, what do you mean you can't? Graham admitted,

757
00:40:39.880 --> 00:40:42.119
I can't say I never had nothing to do with it.

758
00:40:42.599 --> 00:40:46.159
Uncle Dan bluntly asked, did you kill the brod? With

759
00:40:46.239 --> 00:40:50.639
tears in his eyes, Graham nodded yes, he said. Detectives

760
00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:53.599
listening on the shore high fived in a moment of celebration,

761
00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:56.960
but they knew the confession was only the start. They

762
00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:59.519
still needed the rest of the story, and they needed

763
00:40:59.559 --> 00:41:03.440
to link Graham's admission to David Knight. At that point,

764
00:41:03.559 --> 00:41:06.559
Uncle Dan played it cool, not pressing too hard, and

765
00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:09.480
promised Graham he would look into a solution and be

766
00:41:09.519 --> 00:41:13.159
in touch soon. A week later, Uncle Dan invited Graham

767
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:15.880
to his office, where he said he had the solution

768
00:41:16.039 --> 00:41:19.199
to his problems. The solution took the form of a

769
00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:24.000
dying man, another undercover officer that we'll call Ron. Ron

770
00:41:24.199 --> 00:41:27.760
was supposedly a terminally ill cancer patient who only had

771
00:41:27.800 --> 00:41:30.800
a few months to live. If Graham would just agree

772
00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:33.400
to put twenty thousand dollars in a trust fund for

773
00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:37.360
Ron's two sons, he would provide a deathbed confession to

774
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:41.079
the murder of Carmela Knight. Uncle Dan made it even easier.

775
00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:44.039
He offered to front the twenty thousand dollars to Graham,

776
00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:46.880
who could work it off later. It was a perfect

777
00:41:46.920 --> 00:41:50.480
scheme and Graham agreed. But to make it work, Ron

778
00:41:50.519 --> 00:41:53.480
would need details. He needed to be able to convince

779
00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:58.000
the police that he did indeed kill Carmela. Wow, this

780
00:41:58.159 --> 00:42:02.280
is so elaborate. It's really brilliant too, because basically they're

781
00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:05.280
saying Ron will admit to this, but you got to

782
00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:07.760
give him details otherwise he's not going to be able

783
00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:08.760
to convince the police.

784
00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:13.519
So Ron is pretending to have terminal cancer and saying,

785
00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:16.400
you give me the twenty thousand dollars for my sons

786
00:42:16.599 --> 00:42:17.800
and I'll admit to it.

787
00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:19.400
And yeah, because I'm going to die anyways.

788
00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:21.719
Oh we did before you can prosecute me.

789
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:25.800
Yeah, exactly. Ron the dying man came to Dan's office

790
00:42:25.880 --> 00:42:28.960
in a wheelchair, complete with an IV bag and makeup

791
00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:31.000
to make him look like he was not long for

792
00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:34.800
this world. Uncle Dan. Ron and Joe sat Graham down

793
00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:39.000
and said, tell us everything, every little detail Graham did.

794
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:41.480
He said that on the day of the murder, he

795
00:42:41.559 --> 00:42:43.880
and David had gone to a gas station together to

796
00:42:43.960 --> 00:42:46.960
fill cans for the fire. David then left with the

797
00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:50.079
boys for hockey at about three point thirty, leaving Graham

798
00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:53.639
alone in the house. He waited until Carmela arrived home

799
00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:57.159
from work around five o'clock. She came in through the garage.

800
00:42:57.440 --> 00:43:00.480
He ambushed her from behind with a ratchet stretch. As

801
00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:03.920
she entered the kitchen, she fought. He chased her around

802
00:43:03.920 --> 00:43:06.559
the island until he could tackle her and then use

803
00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:08.519
the strap to strangle her to death.

804
00:43:08.679 --> 00:43:10.079
What is a ratchet strap?

805
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:12.280
So it's like something you used to tie down stuff,

806
00:43:12.280 --> 00:43:14.360
like on your trailer. It's like a strap with like

807
00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:17.639
a thing you can tighten it with. She fought for

808
00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:21.159
about fifteen minutes, Graham told them, which doesn't sound like much,

809
00:43:21.199 --> 00:43:23.800
but it's a long fucking time, he said. It took

810
00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:26.280
him half an hour afterward just to catch his breath.

811
00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:28.960
He then dragged her to the garage and tried to

812
00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:31.480
make it look like a drug incident. He pulled out

813
00:43:31.519 --> 00:43:34.719
what he called his junkie kit, a syringe, a tournique.

814
00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:37.960
He tried to inject cocaine into her arm, but with

815
00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:41.000
no blood circulating in her body, it didn't work, so

816
00:43:41.039 --> 00:43:44.000
he left the tourniquet on, placed the needle beside her,

817
00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:46.719
and put a small baggie of cocaine in her purse.

818
00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:49.519
He left her body face down by a chair to

819
00:43:49.599 --> 00:43:52.159
suggest that she had stood up and then collapsed.

820
00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:55.440
I have to admit something here. I am kind of

821
00:43:55.480 --> 00:43:58.719
dim sometimes. The first time, I think in the intro

822
00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:01.920
you mentioned that she had a tourniquet around her arm,

823
00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:05.440
I was thinking like a sling like that kind of Uh,

824
00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:08.119
her arm was injured.

825
00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:11.639
So gotcha could mean that? Now it all makes sense.

826
00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:14.119
Now it all makes sense, because I was so confused, like,

827
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:16.400
why would her arm be in a tourniquet?

828
00:44:16.840 --> 00:44:20.639
Got it? Then he waited until nightfall. He knocked over

829
00:44:20.679 --> 00:44:23.360
a can of gas, waited ten minutes to let it

830
00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:25.960
soak in, and then tossed a lit candle into the

831
00:44:25.960 --> 00:44:29.400
pool of fuel. The fire took off stupid fast as

832
00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:31.840
he put it, and he ran for the door. But

833
00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:34.519
he didn't count on the intense pressure that would result

834
00:44:34.519 --> 00:44:37.920
from the blazing inferno. Pressure that made it very difficult

835
00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:41.400
for him to open the door. He told the undercover cops. Fuck,

836
00:44:41.480 --> 00:44:44.079
it was scary, man. Everything went up. I couldn't get

837
00:44:44.119 --> 00:44:46.760
the doors open. It was scary. I went out through

838
00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:49.039
a side door I didn't want to use because there's

839
00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:52.599
an alarm system from there. He ditched his outer clothes

840
00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:55.679
and walked back to the motel. Graham told the undercover

841
00:44:55.760 --> 00:44:58.880
team that David had promised him one hundred thousand dollars

842
00:44:59.119 --> 00:45:02.079
and a job in Florida for carrying out the killing.

843
00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:05.719
In reality, though, he'd been paid only two thousand dollars

844
00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:08.920
and given a ride to his mom's house in Colborne.

845
00:45:09.320 --> 00:45:10.960
After that, David ghosted him.

846
00:45:11.119 --> 00:45:14.119
It makes me so sick not that it's better if

847
00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:16.840
it was one hundred thousand dollars, but that someone would

848
00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:19.119
kill a person for two thousand dollars.

849
00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:22.679
Yeah, Graham told them that David had supplied two burner

850
00:45:22.760 --> 00:45:26.360
phones that they used to plan the scheme. Frustrated and

851
00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:30.280
feeling betrayed, Graham even hinted that he might blackmail David

852
00:45:30.440 --> 00:45:34.000
or make him disappear too, saying I did it once,

853
00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:35.800
I could do it again and make sure I get

854
00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:38.719
it right the second time. Uncle Dan and the others

855
00:45:38.800 --> 00:45:42.559
discouraged any talk of violence. The undercover team, of course,

856
00:45:42.559 --> 00:45:45.719
didn't want anyone else killed. What they wanted was one

857
00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:49.400
simple thing. Cash and exchange of money would be the

858
00:45:49.480 --> 00:45:52.320
key piece of evidence to connect David to the crime.

859
00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:55.000
Do you think Graham was it all suspicious when they

860
00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:58.079
kept pressing for more details, like they wanted every single

861
00:45:58.280 --> 00:45:59.679
minute detail.

862
00:46:00.039 --> 00:46:02.519
That The undercover cops explained it to Graham as they

863
00:46:02.599 --> 00:46:06.000
needed every detail otherwise they wouldn't Ron wouldn't be able

864
00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:08.079
to convince the police that he did, so he had

865
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:10.440
to have every detail, So that makes sense. I think

866
00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:13.400
Graham is maybe not the sharpest knife in the drawer anyway,

867
00:46:13.480 --> 00:46:14.800
but I think he bought into it.

868
00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:18.039
Graham had shared details that only the killer could have

869
00:46:18.159 --> 00:46:21.559
known somewhere, facts police had intentionally kept from the public,

870
00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:25.760
like the baggy of cocaine in Carmela's purse, Others like

871
00:46:25.800 --> 00:46:28.679
the purchases of gasoline with David and the use of

872
00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:33.519
burner phones, where things investigators hadn't known themselves. Before moving

873
00:46:33.559 --> 00:46:36.679
to the next space, getting Graham to ask David for payment,

874
00:46:37.039 --> 00:46:41.440
detectives needed to verify his story. First, they pulled surveillance

875
00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:44.800
footage from the gas station Graham had mentioned. Sure enough,

876
00:46:44.920 --> 00:46:47.760
there was David Knight at the pump filling gas cans

877
00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:51.639
while Graham sat clearly visible in the passenger seat. Then

878
00:46:51.679 --> 00:46:55.199
they dug into the burner phones. In ice rink footage

879
00:46:55.239 --> 00:46:57.599
from the night of the murder, David could be seen

880
00:46:57.719 --> 00:47:01.039
skating and talking on a phone, but his personal cell

881
00:47:01.079 --> 00:47:04.400
phone records show no calls at that time. When detectives

882
00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:07.920
checked the burner phone logs, they've found calls between David

883
00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:12.079
and Graham, not just that evening, but frequent communication in

884
00:47:12.119 --> 00:47:16.360
the weeks leading up to Carmelo's death. After the murder, silence,

885
00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:20.719
the calls stopped cold. There was enough evidence to move forward.

886
00:47:21.159 --> 00:47:24.320
The undercover team prepared the final phase of their Mister

887
00:47:24.360 --> 00:47:28.400
Big operation. They needed two things, an exchange of cash

888
00:47:28.440 --> 00:47:30.880
between David and Graham and at least one piece of

889
00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:35.320
physical evidence linking David directly to the crime. Sad evidence,

890
00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:38.360
they planned would be given to Ron, the terminally ill

891
00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:41.559
fall Guide to make the cover story air tight. By

892
00:47:41.559 --> 00:47:45.440
this point, investigators knew David's routine. He spent most afternoons

893
00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:48.960
at the frog A pub on Young Street. They told

894
00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:52.840
Graham to confront him there and demand his money. Agents

895
00:47:52.880 --> 00:47:57.400
were already stationed inside, disguised as customers, with hidden cameras

896
00:47:57.400 --> 00:48:01.320
and microphones placed throughout the bar, and even one secretly

897
00:48:01.360 --> 00:48:02.840
planted on Graham himself.

898
00:48:03.159 --> 00:48:06.000
How they planted a microphone on Graham, I don't know,

899
00:48:06.440 --> 00:48:09.519
but it's just another just such an elaborate plan, and

900
00:48:09.519 --> 00:48:11.920
they've got all these undercover officers in the bar like

901
00:48:11.960 --> 00:48:14.400
acting like customers. Yeah, you know, how many people were

902
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:16.599
involved in this operation, but that is nuts.

903
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:19.480
When David saw his old friend, he looked surprised, but

904
00:48:19.559 --> 00:48:22.719
after a few beers he loosened up. David apologized for

905
00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:25.960
not paying what he owed and promised to make it right.

906
00:48:26.360 --> 00:48:29.480
Graham explained his plan to have a dying man confessed

907
00:48:29.519 --> 00:48:33.400
to the murder. David seemed impressed. Later, Graham bragged to

908
00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:37.079
Joe and Uncle Dan, He's impressed with how I'm handling myself.

909
00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:39.400
He knows I'm not a fucking rat. I don't have

910
00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:42.920
nobody tailing me. Oh the irony, I know. Over the

911
00:48:42.920 --> 00:48:45.960
next few days, David and Graham met several more times.

912
00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:51.039
David eventually agreed to find something, anything from Carmelo's belongings

913
00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:53.880
that could serve as evidence for the cancer patient's confession.

914
00:48:54.440 --> 00:48:56.840
The next day, Graham met with Joe when Uncle Dan

915
00:48:57.039 --> 00:49:01.440
and pulled out a small item a Rosemary said. Joe frowned,

916
00:49:01.639 --> 00:49:05.559
you mean a rosary. Graham nodded, yeah, rosary whatever. It

917
00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:09.280
came right from her purse. It's got her DNA on it. Finally,

918
00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:13.920
in February twenty fifteen, after several meetings, David produced some cash.

919
00:49:14.039 --> 00:49:17.239
It wasn't much, just five thousand dollars, but it was enough.

920
00:49:17.480 --> 00:49:19.880
He slipped the money to Graham at the bar, unaware

921
00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:23.880
that undercover cameras were rolling. That was it the final

922
00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:26.280
piece of the puzzle. As the man left the frog

923
00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:31.280
that afternoon, officers closed in after months of deception, surveillance

924
00:49:31.400 --> 00:49:35.760
and patience. David Knight and Graham MacDonald were both under

925
00:49:35.880 --> 00:49:39.679
arrest the jig was up. David and Graham were both

926
00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:43.320
charged with first degree murder, conspiracy to commit murder, and

927
00:49:43.519 --> 00:49:47.639
arson in Florida. David's brother, Matthew Knight was arrested and

928
00:49:47.719 --> 00:49:51.400
extradited to Canada, charged as an accessory after the fact,

929
00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:55.239
bail was denied for all three men. Even behind bars,

930
00:49:55.280 --> 00:49:58.599
there was no shortage of drama. At one point, Graham

931
00:49:58.639 --> 00:50:01.639
and Matthew were housed in the same facility. When they

932
00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:06.320
crossed paths, Graham attacked him, pubbling Matthew before guards pulled

933
00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:11.400
them apart. Both men spent time in solitary confinement afterward. Then,

934
00:50:11.480 --> 00:50:14.719
in September twenty fifteen, there was an attempted jail break

935
00:50:14.760 --> 00:50:18.400
at the detention center where David was being held. Inmates

936
00:50:18.440 --> 00:50:21.119
had started tunneling through a cell wall, but the plan

937
00:50:21.239 --> 00:50:25.119
was discovered before anyone escaped. News reports claimed David Knight

938
00:50:25.239 --> 00:50:29.440
was involved, though officers declined to confirm it. In April

939
00:50:29.480 --> 00:50:33.760
twenty seventeen, Matthew Knight pleaded guilty to being an accessory

940
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:36.840
after the fact. He was sentenced to time served in

941
00:50:36.920 --> 00:50:41.280
two years probation, roughly eighteen months behind bars in total.

942
00:50:41.559 --> 00:50:44.360
That seems kind of light. As Graham's trial approached in

943
00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:47.760
early twenty eighteen, his lawyers filed a motion to exclude

944
00:50:47.800 --> 00:50:51.280
the evidence from the Mister Big operation. Remember that under

945
00:50:51.320 --> 00:50:55.039
the twenty fourteen Supreme Court ruling, such confessions are presumed

946
00:50:55.119 --> 00:50:59.760
inadmissible unless prosecutors can prove two things, first that the

947
00:50:59.800 --> 00:51:03.800
confession is reliable, and second that police conduct didn't bring

948
00:51:03.840 --> 00:51:08.239
the administration of justice into disrepute. The first test was easy,

949
00:51:08.440 --> 00:51:11.960
Graham had revealed details only the killer could know, so

950
00:51:12.079 --> 00:51:16.280
his defense focused on the second, arguing that police plied

951
00:51:16.360 --> 00:51:19.840
him with alcohol during the sting and discouraged him from

952
00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:23.000
seeking legal advice. I think they might have a point there.

953
00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:25.440
Yeah, maybe the judge.

954
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:28.000
Does not agree that these actions brought the administration of

955
00:51:28.199 --> 00:51:33.079
justice into disrepute, Graham's confession to mister Big would be allowed.

956
00:51:33.199 --> 00:51:36.000
I think that second part is a tricky one, right,

957
00:51:36.039 --> 00:51:39.559
because you know, police can't do anything that is shady

958
00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:44.199
or unethical, And yeah, maybe like drinking together might be

959
00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:46.880
a little bit unethical, but it's a very gray area.

960
00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:49.880
So drinking together is one thing, but getting him drunk

961
00:51:49.960 --> 00:51:53.440
is another, you know, like not telling him, Hey, maybe

962
00:51:53.480 --> 00:51:55.920
you've had enough, buddy, because you know he could be

963
00:51:55.960 --> 00:51:59.639
embellishing this story. I'm not defending him, but to preserve

964
00:51:59.679 --> 00:52:03.119
his rite to appeal, Graham pleaded not guilty, but didn't

965
00:52:03.119 --> 00:52:06.320
contest the evidence. He waived a jury and opted for

966
00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:10.440
a judge only trial, a formality that guaranteed conviction but

967
00:52:10.519 --> 00:52:12.960
kept the door open for an appeal on the mister

968
00:52:13.039 --> 00:52:17.719
Big issue. Meanwhile, David Knight's lawyers requested a media blackout

969
00:52:17.760 --> 00:52:21.480
on Graham's trial, claiming it would prejudice potential jurors in

970
00:52:21.559 --> 00:52:26.119
David's own case. That motion was denied. Graham's trial lasted

971
00:52:26.239 --> 00:52:30.079
just two days. The verdict guilty on all counts. His

972
00:52:30.199 --> 00:52:34.639
sentence was automatic life in prison, with eligibility for parole

973
00:52:34.760 --> 00:52:38.079
after twenty five years. He'll be fifty three when that

974
00:52:38.159 --> 00:52:38.920
time comes.

975
00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:43.159
David's trial began a few months later, in October twenty eighteen,

976
00:52:43.519 --> 00:52:47.480
more than four years after Carmela's murder. He pleaded not guilty.

977
00:52:47.880 --> 00:52:50.400
One of the crown's key witnesses was supposed to be

978
00:52:50.480 --> 00:52:54.119
Graham McDonald, but when he took the stand, prosecutors got

979
00:52:54.119 --> 00:52:57.960
a surprise. Graham entered the courtroom in cuffs and shackles,

980
00:52:58.079 --> 00:53:01.239
muttering to himself. When asked to stand and take an oath,

981
00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:06.360
he exploded, shouting profanity and flashing obscene gestures. I'm giving

982
00:53:06.440 --> 00:53:08.840
you the finger, he said, go fuck yourself. Put that

983
00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:12.079
on the record. The judge warned him about contempt and

984
00:53:12.159 --> 00:53:15.159
advised him to speak with his lawyer. Graham shot back,

985
00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:17.960
there's nothing to discuss. I have no business being here.

986
00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:22.039
He was immediately removed from the courtroom. He was later

987
00:53:22.119 --> 00:53:25.519
convicted of contempt and sentenced to four years, but those

988
00:53:25.559 --> 00:53:28.639
four years were to be served concurrently with his life sentence,

989
00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:30.920
meaning that it really changed nothing.

990
00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:33.400
Four years for contempt. That seems like.

991
00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:37.199
A it does, but in the end it really didn't

992
00:53:37.239 --> 00:53:39.760
mean anything, right, But yeah, it does seem like quite

993
00:53:39.760 --> 00:53:44.280
a bit. Even without Graham's testimony, Prosecutors had plenty audio

994
00:53:44.480 --> 00:53:48.119
and video recordings from the sting, Graham describing the plot

995
00:53:48.159 --> 00:53:52.280
in detail, footage of David handing over cash, and surveillance

996
00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:55.320
of the two men at the gas station. David's brother, Matthew,

997
00:53:55.360 --> 00:53:58.599
took the stand against him, testifying for three full days.

998
00:53:59.039 --> 00:54:01.119
He said that when he first heard about the fire,

999
00:54:01.360 --> 00:54:04.440
he knew what must have happened. He confronted Graham at

1000
00:54:04.440 --> 00:54:07.199
his motel, and Graham admitted that he had done it.

1001
00:54:07.679 --> 00:54:11.079
Asked why he didn't call police, Matthew simply said it

1002
00:54:11.159 --> 00:54:14.840
was not my job. David's defense was simple. He claimed

1003
00:54:14.880 --> 00:54:17.840
he had nothing to do with it. If Graham killed Carmela,

1004
00:54:17.960 --> 00:54:20.599
he acted on his own. Graham, he said, was a

1005
00:54:20.639 --> 00:54:23.920
career criminal and drug addict who concocted the story to

1006
00:54:23.960 --> 00:54:28.320
save himself. David took the stand for five days, denying everything,

1007
00:54:28.639 --> 00:54:31.920
the payments, the burner phones, even the plan involving the

1008
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:35.599
terminal cancer patient. When shown the five thousand dollars and

1009
00:54:35.679 --> 00:54:38.920
the rosary that Graham left the bar with, David insisted

1010
00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:42.119
that Graham must have stolen them from his pocket. In

1011
00:54:42.199 --> 00:54:46.239
closing arguments, David's attorney accused the police of coercion, saying

1012
00:54:46.639 --> 00:54:49.679
a more coerced police confession has yet to be seen.

1013
00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:52.000
That seems like a bit of a stretch to me.

1014
00:54:52.480 --> 00:54:56.519
The trial stretched over four months. The core months, the

1015
00:54:56.599 --> 00:54:59.920
jury deliberated for a full day before returning a verdict

1016
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:04.280
guilty on all counts first degree murder, conspiracy to commit murder,

1017
00:55:04.400 --> 00:55:08.559
and arson. Like Graham, David received a mandatory life sentence

1018
00:55:08.639 --> 00:55:12.280
with eligibility for parole after twenty five years. The judge

1019
00:55:12.280 --> 00:55:15.920
had discretion on whether the other counts would run concurrently

1020
00:55:16.039 --> 00:55:20.960
or consecutively. Carmela's mother, Franka Augusta, made a powerful victim

1021
00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:24.760
impact statement. He was supposed to love and protect karm

1022
00:55:24.840 --> 00:55:28.159
not murder her. He had no mercy for Carmela and

1023
00:55:28.199 --> 00:55:31.159
the court should have no mercy for him. In the end,

1024
00:55:31.320 --> 00:55:34.679
the judge ruled that the additional sentences would run concurrently,

1025
00:55:35.119 --> 00:55:37.960
meaning that David Knight will be eligible for parole after

1026
00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:40.960
twenty five years. He'll be sixty seven years old at

1027
00:55:40.960 --> 00:55:44.760
that time. Both David Knight and Graham MacDonald indicated that

1028
00:55:44.840 --> 00:55:48.159
they planned to appeal their convictions, but there's no public

1029
00:55:48.199 --> 00:55:51.639
record of either case moving forward. Hopefully that means they

1030
00:55:51.760 --> 00:55:55.559
either decided against it or that their appeals were unsuccessful.

1031
00:55:56.039 --> 00:55:59.599
In October twenty nineteen, the Durham Police Homicide Unit was

1032
00:55:59.639 --> 00:56:03.920
reckoned during the annual Police Appreciation dinner and awards night

1033
00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:07.840
for their work on Carmela's case. Carmela's family has kept

1034
00:56:07.840 --> 00:56:11.159
a low profile since the trials. Her mother Franka, her

1035
00:56:11.199 --> 00:56:14.800
sister Nancy, and her youngest son, Dylan all appeared on

1036
00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:18.280
the Dateline episode about the case. Dylan said that at

1037
00:56:18.280 --> 00:56:21.239
first he couldn't believe his father was responsible for his

1038
00:56:21.320 --> 00:56:24.760
mother's death, but over time he came to accept the truth.

1039
00:56:25.199 --> 00:56:28.199
After their mother's murder, Dylan and his brother were raised

1040
00:56:28.239 --> 00:56:31.000
by their aunt Nancy. She and her husband have two

1041
00:56:31.039 --> 00:56:34.000
younger children, and Dylan says he feels like a big

1042
00:56:34.039 --> 00:56:37.559
brother now. Nancy's friends later gave her a special gift,

1043
00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:42.159
a necklace engraved with Carmela's handwriting that reads love Calm.

1044
00:56:42.599 --> 00:56:45.159
She treasured it so much that she had an identical

1045
00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:48.119
one made for her mom. Today, both women wear their

1046
00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:51.599
necklaces to keep Carmela close to their hearts. Every year,

1047
00:56:51.639 --> 00:56:55.639
the family gathers to celebrate Carmela's birthday to remember her laughter,

1048
00:56:55.880 --> 00:56:58.679
her kindness, and the love that she poured into everyone

1049
00:56:58.800 --> 00:57:03.719
around her. Piece Carmela, A few questions for you. What

1050
00:57:03.800 --> 00:57:06.880
do you think ultimately pushed David Knight to kill Carmela.

1051
00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:09.400
Do you think it was the financial pressure, the loss

1052
00:57:09.400 --> 00:57:13.119
of control after she was going to divorce him, or

1053
00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:15.000
was it just pure selfishness.

1054
00:57:15.239 --> 00:57:18.440
It's probably a combination of all those factors, right, I'm.

1055
00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:20.559
Sure it was a combination. But in my opinion, it

1056
00:57:20.599 --> 00:57:23.079
was mostly the financial stuff. Like he was in over

1057
00:57:23.159 --> 00:57:25.599
his head and he had all this stuff going on,

1058
00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:28.760
and he was, you know, he was going to get

1059
00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:31.159
divorced and he was probably going to have to pay support.

1060
00:57:31.320 --> 00:57:33.559
So I think he was just in a really he

1061
00:57:33.599 --> 00:57:35.840
found himself in a spot that he felt like he

1062
00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:37.639
was between a rock and a hard place and had

1063
00:57:37.679 --> 00:57:39.039
to come up with cash.

1064
00:57:39.079 --> 00:57:41.440
True, but in order to kill someone, you have to,

1065
00:57:41.559 --> 00:57:45.880
you know, be a narcissistic, selfish, you know, horrible person too.

1066
00:57:46.119 --> 00:57:50.199
Yeah. Absolutely. Let's talk about the police undercover operation the

1067
00:57:50.360 --> 00:57:53.199
mister big sting. Do you think they were justified in

1068
00:57:53.320 --> 00:57:57.559
using this elaborate undercover sting given the risks we talked

1069
00:57:57.559 --> 00:58:01.280
about with you know, the these type of tactics can

1070
00:58:01.320 --> 00:58:03.760
often lead to coercion and false confessions.

1071
00:58:04.119 --> 00:58:06.079
You said it's legal in Canada, and if it's a

1072
00:58:06.119 --> 00:58:08.519
tool available to you in your arsenal, then why not

1073
00:58:08.679 --> 00:58:11.360
use it? Yeah, but you said it's used less frequently

1074
00:58:11.400 --> 00:58:12.239
now than it used to.

1075
00:58:12.159 --> 00:58:15.039
Be because of that Supreme Court ruling. Yeah, there's definitely

1076
00:58:15.039 --> 00:58:17.800
a lot of restrictions around it. But I love it.

1077
00:58:17.880 --> 00:58:19.800
I think it's I mean, obviously you have to be

1078
00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:23.039
super careful, right, But I just think it's a really clever,

1079
00:58:23.239 --> 00:58:25.519
creative way to learn what happened.

1080
00:58:25.599 --> 00:58:28.599
Well, knowing you and the way your mind works, I

1081
00:58:28.639 --> 00:58:31.159
can see how you know, you just would love to

1082
00:58:31.239 --> 00:58:33.920
create that as that scheme in your head.

1083
00:58:34.119 --> 00:58:37.760
Right. It reminds me a little of the movie Donny

1084
00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:42.159
Brasco with Johnny Depp and al Pacino, where Johnny Depp

1085
00:58:42.199 --> 00:58:45.079
goes undercover like with the Mob, and it's just it

1086
00:58:45.159 --> 00:58:47.480
just fascinates me with these guys have to like put

1087
00:58:47.519 --> 00:58:49.679
on this different persona, you know, they have to be

1088
00:58:50.079 --> 00:58:53.880
actors in addition to investigating. I mean in some ways,

1089
00:58:53.880 --> 00:58:55.800
but it could also be pretty dangerous.

1090
00:58:55.440 --> 00:58:56.719
Yeah, pretty stressful.

1091
00:58:56.880 --> 00:59:00.559
Yeah. Do you think the sentences that David and Graham

1092
00:59:00.760 --> 00:59:03.320
got were just so they both got life in prison,

1093
00:59:03.360 --> 00:59:05.920
but they're eligible for parole after twenty five years.

1094
00:59:06.760 --> 00:59:09.239
I don't really know. I think Canada's justice system is

1095
00:59:09.239 --> 00:59:11.880
a little more lenient than here in the United States.

1096
00:59:12.079 --> 00:59:14.159
Like in the United States, they probably would have gotten

1097
00:59:14.199 --> 00:59:16.679
a life sentence without the possibility of parole.

1098
00:59:16.480 --> 00:59:18.280
Right because it was clearly premeditated.

1099
00:59:18.840 --> 00:59:21.239
Yeah, I don't really know. I'd like to believe that

1100
00:59:21.760 --> 00:59:24.400
there is a chance for anyone to be rehabilitated and

1101
00:59:24.480 --> 00:59:27.079
a twenty five year sentence. You know, maybe you should

1102
00:59:27.119 --> 00:59:31.280
be given that opportunity, right, Yeah, I don't know. It's

1103
00:59:31.320 --> 00:59:31.880
really tricky.

1104
00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:34.440
It is a tough one. Every country has different, you know,

1105
00:59:34.559 --> 00:59:35.320
sort of norms.

1106
00:59:35.559 --> 00:59:37.840
You know, it surprises me. There's a little off topic,

1107
00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:41.800
but how many people are still like Jeffrey MacDonald, which

1108
00:59:41.840 --> 00:59:44.039
is the very first case that I ever did for

1109
00:59:44.079 --> 00:59:46.440
love Mary kill, like he's in his eighties and he's

1110
00:59:46.480 --> 00:59:49.079
still alive in prison. You know, I know life in

1111
00:59:49.079 --> 00:59:51.880
prison can't be easy, and I don't think they feed

1112
00:59:51.920 --> 00:59:55.119
you especially well. So you know, how are all these

1113
00:59:55.159 --> 00:59:57.960
people still? I know plenty of people die in prison,

1114
00:59:58.039 --> 00:59:59.800
but you know what I mean, like, plenty of people

1115
01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:02.280
are alive in prison in their eighties.

1116
01:00:02.360 --> 01:00:04.599
Yeah, if you get convicted of something like you know,

1117
01:00:04.639 --> 01:00:07.599
first degree murder at a very young age, you're spending

1118
01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:09.679
a lot of time in prison if you live to

1119
01:00:09.679 --> 01:00:13.159
be that long. And that's you know, Graham, I don't

1120
01:00:13.199 --> 01:00:15.039
know how old he was. He must have been fairly young,

1121
01:00:15.079 --> 01:00:17.280
because I think I said he's eligible to get out

1122
01:00:17.400 --> 01:00:18.880
in his early fifties.

1123
01:00:18.920 --> 01:00:19.679
I think fifty three.

1124
01:00:19.719 --> 01:00:22.639
I think you said, yeah, so you know, he still

1125
01:00:22.679 --> 01:00:25.159
has potential to have a life, and like you said,

1126
01:00:25.199 --> 01:00:27.320
you hope that people could be rehabilitated. But at the

1127
01:00:27.320 --> 01:00:31.199
same time, taking someone's life in like a purely cold blood,

1128
01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:35.400
premeditated way, it's just so hard to get past that.

1129
01:00:35.320 --> 01:00:38.199
You know. I try to think if you take someone's life,

1130
01:00:38.280 --> 01:00:40.400
that you should be in prison for the rest of

1131
01:00:40.440 --> 01:00:44.360
your life. But it's hard in this situation because David

1132
01:00:44.679 --> 01:00:47.840
he didn't kill anyone. You know, it's just kind of

1133
01:00:48.119 --> 01:00:51.400
hard sometimes to decipher that in my head, Like, Okay,

1134
01:00:51.440 --> 01:00:53.880
so he didn't kill anyone. He planned it, right the

1135
01:00:53.920 --> 01:00:55.840
guy who? You know, it's like, who is the guiltier

1136
01:00:55.880 --> 01:00:58.159
party there? Yeah, they both equally guilty.

1137
01:00:58.280 --> 01:01:00.599
I'm not sure that that is a tough one. What

1138
01:01:00.719 --> 01:01:04.199
about Matthew's sentence. So Matthew apparently knew it was going

1139
01:01:04.280 --> 01:01:06.679
to happen because he told his wife, but he only

1140
01:01:06.760 --> 01:01:07.800
got eighteen months.

1141
01:01:07.960 --> 01:01:09.920
I will admit to you, I'm not exactly sure what

1142
01:01:10.039 --> 01:01:11.400
Matthew is guilty of.

1143
01:01:11.639 --> 01:01:13.840
I mean, it's not one hundred percent clear what he's

1144
01:01:13.840 --> 01:01:17.199
guilty of. It seems like he knew that David was

1145
01:01:17.239 --> 01:01:20.760
planning this in advance because he told his wife, Heather

1146
01:01:20.960 --> 01:01:23.079
that I knew exactly, you know, I could have put

1147
01:01:23.119 --> 01:01:25.880
a stop to this, and I didn't, So it seems

1148
01:01:25.880 --> 01:01:29.559
like he could have changed the outcome. And you know,

1149
01:01:29.760 --> 01:01:32.840
reported David before it happened, or at the very least

1150
01:01:33.000 --> 01:01:36.079
he could have after it happened. He knew exactly what happened,

1151
01:01:36.239 --> 01:01:39.000
and he still failed to go to the police. Yeah,

1152
01:01:39.360 --> 01:01:41.079
eighteen months seems pretty light.

1153
01:01:41.599 --> 01:01:45.000
It does. But if all he is guilty of is

1154
01:01:45.159 --> 01:01:48.199
not going to the police with the information, I don't.

1155
01:01:48.360 --> 01:01:49.800
I don't know. I wish we knew a little more

1156
01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:50.159
about that.

1157
01:01:50.239 --> 01:01:51.440
I guess, Yeah, I do too.

1158
01:01:51.679 --> 01:01:54.000
I have a question for you. We've this is almost

1159
01:01:54.079 --> 01:01:56.599
our two hundredth case. Do you see what women are

1160
01:01:56.679 --> 01:02:00.760
up against? Has this changed your impression of relationship between

1161
01:02:00.760 --> 01:02:03.360
men and women doing this podcast for so long, Like

1162
01:02:03.400 --> 01:02:07.159
how many men are really innately dishonest with their partner

1163
01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:09.960
and how you know it's really hard for a lot

1164
01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:13.440
of women to leave a relationship. What have you learned

1165
01:02:13.480 --> 01:02:16.239
from doing the podcast for three years?

1166
01:02:16.480 --> 01:02:19.639
Yeah, I mean I would say I always, you know,

1167
01:02:19.719 --> 01:02:22.639
knew that that was a situation for a lot of women,

1168
01:02:22.719 --> 01:02:26.039
but it has made it maybe even more like shocking

1169
01:02:26.119 --> 01:02:30.119
how many of these stories we talk about where women

1170
01:02:30.159 --> 01:02:33.679
are in a really dangerous, scary situation. It's very, very

1171
01:02:33.679 --> 01:02:35.679
difficult to get out of that situation.

1172
01:02:36.280 --> 01:02:39.440
You talked about the women in Florida David's girlfriend jil

1173
01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:42.880
Okay Chill, and she didn't really ask too many questions

1174
01:02:42.960 --> 01:02:45.000
and she didn't know a lot about David, And you

1175
01:02:45.079 --> 01:02:47.800
thought that was strange that she didn't ask a lot

1176
01:02:47.840 --> 01:02:51.840
of questions. But can you see how women want to think, Oh,

1177
01:02:51.880 --> 01:02:54.519
he's a good guy, and you know, they're not a

1178
01:02:54.559 --> 01:02:57.599
lot of good guys around, so it might not be perfect,

1179
01:02:57.719 --> 01:03:00.320
but you know, I'll settle for him. So many women

1180
01:03:00.440 --> 01:03:04.599
end up doing that because you know, yeah, you're a unicorn.

1181
01:03:05.239 --> 01:03:06.559
That's not true, but there.

1182
01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:08.760
Are are You are definitely unicorn.

1183
01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:09.920
And there's a lot of good guys out there. There

1184
01:03:09.960 --> 01:03:13.079
are also a lot of bad guys out there as well. Well.

1185
01:03:13.119 --> 01:03:15.760
Remember a few, like a month ago, we were talking

1186
01:03:15.800 --> 01:03:18.480
about the woman who put a billboard up I think

1187
01:03:18.800 --> 01:03:21.039
it was Mary Lisa, and we had a lot of

1188
01:03:21.119 --> 01:03:24.119
listeners say, you guys really should start a dating website

1189
01:03:24.239 --> 01:03:27.039
because it really is hard to find someone.

1190
01:03:27.239 --> 01:03:29.960
Yeah, I'm not sure you're going to find someone by.

1191
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:31.159
The sure crime community.

1192
01:03:31.320 --> 01:03:34.199
Yeah, maybe not, But going back to your original point,

1193
01:03:34.280 --> 01:03:38.199
like Carmela in this case, I feel like she did everything.

1194
01:03:37.960 --> 01:03:40.119
Right and still so many women do.

1195
01:03:40.360 --> 01:03:43.000
I know, I know exactly. That's what's that's just so

1196
01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:45.880
so sad. It's a very difficult situation to get out of.

1197
01:03:46.400 --> 01:03:48.840
I think that is the most dangerous part of a

1198
01:03:48.840 --> 01:03:50.960
woman's life is when she's trying to leave her partner.

1199
01:03:51.079 --> 01:03:54.880
Yeah, sadly, that is the story of Carmela and David Knight.

1200
01:03:55.000 --> 01:03:57.760
Were you thinking of Carmelo Soprano a lot during that episode?

1201
01:03:57.800 --> 01:04:05.639
I was, yes too. We talked a lot in this

1202
01:04:05.719 --> 01:04:08.559
episode about the Mister Big operations, and it got me

1203
01:04:08.599 --> 01:04:12.000
thinking about like ethical policing and where I think police

1204
01:04:12.039 --> 01:04:13.280
are in a very difficult position.

1205
01:04:13.320 --> 01:04:14.559
I thought you were going to give me a Sex

1206
01:04:14.559 --> 01:04:15.559
in This City quiz.

1207
01:04:17.199 --> 01:04:18.719
I am going to give you a quiz to find

1208
01:04:18.760 --> 01:04:21.639
out what you would be like as a detective.

1209
01:04:22.519 --> 01:04:27.000
First, can I ask you? Are you as Charlotte, a Miranda,

1210
01:04:27.679 --> 01:04:29.239
A Samantha, or a Carrie.

1211
01:04:29.400 --> 01:04:31.039
I have absolutely no idea.

1212
01:04:31.239 --> 01:04:33.360
You watched Sex in the City with me, I know,

1213
01:04:33.440 --> 01:04:35.039
but you watch all of it.

1214
01:04:35.199 --> 01:04:36.639
Yeah, I don't even really remember.

1215
01:04:36.800 --> 01:04:43.599
You're probably a Miranda, Okay, I mean s means you're smart.

1216
01:04:44.000 --> 01:04:45.760
Will you tell us that you're smart all the time?

1217
01:04:46.320 --> 01:04:47.400
Is Miranda do that too?

1218
01:04:48.119 --> 01:04:51.280
I mean she just is smart smart.

1219
01:04:52.239 --> 01:04:54.000
I think I'm a Miranda then, and you are.

1220
01:04:54.519 --> 01:04:59.360
I don't know, I'm Tina. I think I'm a little

1221
01:04:59.400 --> 01:05:02.079
bit of a Charlotte and maybe a little bit of

1222
01:05:02.119 --> 01:05:04.639
carry Okay, yis midge of Miranda?

1223
01:05:05.199 --> 01:05:05.480
All right?

1224
01:05:05.480 --> 01:05:07.199
I don't really think i'm miss Samantha.

1225
01:05:07.280 --> 01:05:10.119
I feel like you're trying to avoid this ethical policing

1226
01:05:10.840 --> 01:05:11.400
queer to me.

1227
01:05:11.440 --> 01:05:12.280
I have no ethics.

1228
01:05:13.400 --> 01:05:15.159
Well, I'm going to give you a few scenarios, okay,

1229
01:05:15.199 --> 01:05:16.840
and you have to tell me how you react. So

1230
01:05:17.199 --> 01:05:19.960
first one, you are a rookie detective. You stop into

1231
01:05:20.000 --> 01:05:22.400
a local diner popular with the forest.

1232
01:05:22.599 --> 01:05:24.280
I would like a piece of cherry pie.

1233
01:05:24.559 --> 01:05:26.480
You go in, you go to pay for your meal,

1234
01:05:26.559 --> 01:05:28.599
and the owner says, no, no, your money is no

1235
01:05:28.679 --> 01:05:30.880
good here. You guys keep the neighborhood safe. It's the

1236
01:05:30.960 --> 01:05:33.960
least I can do. Now, you know that department policy

1237
01:05:34.360 --> 01:05:38.519
strictly forbids accepting gratuities of any kind. What do you do?

1238
01:05:38.760 --> 01:05:42.400
Oh? Well, if it's against policy, then I would say thanks,

1239
01:05:42.440 --> 01:05:42.800
but no.

1240
01:05:42.880 --> 01:05:46.559
Thanks, Okay, excellently very very upright, very honest.

1241
01:05:46.599 --> 01:05:50.119
Okay, take a free donut every now and then, though, okay,

1242
01:05:50.480 --> 01:05:50.760
not a.

1243
01:05:50.679 --> 01:05:53.880
Whole meal, So you would draw the line at a donut,

1244
01:05:53.960 --> 01:05:56.760
but not a whole meal. Gotcha, all right. Second scenario,

1245
01:05:56.760 --> 01:05:59.760
You have arrested a suspect who you are certain has

1246
01:06:00.199 --> 01:06:02.440
napped a young girl. The girl has been missing for

1247
01:06:02.440 --> 01:06:05.400
forty eight hours, and you believe that time is running out.

1248
01:06:05.840 --> 01:06:09.280
The suspect is sneering at you, refusing to talk. You

1249
01:06:09.360 --> 01:06:12.760
believe that if you physically threaten him or use enhanced

1250
01:06:12.760 --> 01:06:16.840
interrogation techniques, there's a chance that he'll reveal her location.

1251
01:06:17.159 --> 01:06:19.119
But if you wait for a lawyer and you follow

1252
01:06:19.119 --> 01:06:21.760
a standard procedure, you think that the girl will die.

1253
01:06:22.280 --> 01:06:26.440
Oh I know this is not These are not easy questions.

1254
01:06:27.760 --> 01:06:31.079
Do you beat him up and get him to fess up,

1255
01:06:31.199 --> 01:06:34.079
or do you let the legal system, you know, go

1256
01:06:34.119 --> 01:06:34.760
buy the book?

1257
01:06:35.159 --> 01:06:38.000
Well I would I would go buy the book because

1258
01:06:38.159 --> 01:06:42.800
you have to follow the law. And yeah, it would

1259
01:06:42.840 --> 01:06:45.760
be thrown out. Oh you mean like it would be okay,

1260
01:06:46.440 --> 01:06:49.480
like you're trying to have a case thrown Yeah, okay,

1261
01:06:49.960 --> 01:06:52.920
I get what you're saying. Yeah, I guess I save

1262
01:06:53.000 --> 01:06:53.599
the little girl.

1263
01:06:53.800 --> 01:06:55.119
Okay, so you're gonna beat him up.

1264
01:06:55.400 --> 01:06:57.920
I have brass knuckles. I always keep them with me

1265
01:06:58.079 --> 01:06:59.719
just in case. Okay, So yeah, I.

1266
01:06:59.719 --> 01:07:02.000
Think it's a good answer. Yeah, all right. You and

1267
01:07:02.039 --> 01:07:05.440
your partner pursue a suspect who fled after a violent mugging.

1268
01:07:05.639 --> 01:07:08.159
When you corner him in an alley, he surrenders and

1269
01:07:08.239 --> 01:07:12.400
raises his hands. Your partner, still running on adrenaline and anger,

1270
01:07:12.760 --> 01:07:15.840
hits the suspect with his baton, knocking him down. The

1271
01:07:15.920 --> 01:07:19.159
suspect is hurt, but not critically. When writing the report,

1272
01:07:19.239 --> 01:07:21.800
your partner says, hey, could you just leave out that

1273
01:07:21.880 --> 01:07:24.199
part when I hit him and just say that he tripped?

1274
01:07:25.000 --> 01:07:25.559
What do you do?

1275
01:07:25.880 --> 01:07:28.320
I probably wouldn't, Yeah, you would what I would leave

1276
01:07:28.360 --> 01:07:28.679
it out?

1277
01:07:28.960 --> 01:07:29.840
Really you'd be like.

1278
01:07:29.920 --> 01:07:33.280
I think, I mean, I think you have to. I'm

1279
01:07:33.280 --> 01:07:36.519
not saying it's right, but you know, I think your.

1280
01:07:36.400 --> 01:07:39.599
Part Yeah, you have to support your partner's and really

1281
01:07:39.599 --> 01:07:40.760
no harm was done anyway.

1282
01:07:41.000 --> 01:07:45.519
So yeah, although I do not believe in police brutality

1283
01:07:45.599 --> 01:07:46.239
at all.

1284
01:07:46.280 --> 01:07:50.440
Okay, okay, but you're willing to look the other way to.

1285
01:07:50.239 --> 01:07:54.079
Support not part So I'm not like me personally. M

1286
01:07:54.360 --> 01:07:57.239
I guess you're asking me personally. But yeah, I think

1287
01:07:57.239 --> 01:07:59.760
you have to, like, yeah, right, what would you do?

1288
01:07:59.880 --> 01:08:01.159
You're not answering what you would do.

1289
01:08:02.239 --> 01:08:04.840
I probably would also support my partner in that case.

1290
01:08:04.920 --> 01:08:08.639
It's a very minor yeah, yeah, yeah.

1291
01:08:08.480 --> 01:08:10.559
If you felt like it wasn't like a pattern that

1292
01:08:10.599 --> 01:08:15.639
your partner was on his neck, right, yeah, exactly, all right.

1293
01:08:15.679 --> 01:08:18.600
Next one, you are investigating a serial drug trafficker who

1294
01:08:18.680 --> 01:08:22.039
has evaded capture for years. After a tip you find,

1295
01:08:22.399 --> 01:08:24.920
you search a warehouse. You find a massive stash of

1296
01:08:24.960 --> 01:08:28.560
heroin and other evidence that proves his guilt. However, you

1297
01:08:28.640 --> 01:08:31.119
realize after the fact that the address on the search

1298
01:08:31.159 --> 01:08:34.520
warrant was off by a digit, so technically the search

1299
01:08:34.680 --> 01:08:37.319
was illegal and the evidence will be thrown out of

1300
01:08:37.359 --> 01:08:40.720
court if you admit the mistake. Do you admit that

1301
01:08:40.760 --> 01:08:42.960
there was a mistake and let the evidence get thrown

1302
01:08:43.000 --> 01:08:45.880
out or do you lie and say, oh, it was

1303
01:08:46.560 --> 01:08:48.520
corrected on the warrant So.

1304
01:08:48.560 --> 01:08:51.119
You're painting me to be a corrupt copy Yeah.

1305
01:08:51.079 --> 01:08:53.720
Just I think police often have to deal with very

1306
01:08:53.800 --> 01:08:55.760
morally gray situations.

1307
01:08:55.840 --> 01:08:58.239
I think, if the numbers so yours, what would I do,

1308
01:08:58.479 --> 01:09:00.359
like change the number on this search warrant?

1309
01:09:00.560 --> 01:09:01.399
I think what you could do.

1310
01:09:01.560 --> 01:09:02.960
Search warrant comes from the judge.

1311
01:09:03.000 --> 01:09:04.880
No, I guess. The other alternative is that you would

1312
01:09:04.920 --> 01:09:07.800
testify that you saw the suspect run into that building,

1313
01:09:08.079 --> 01:09:10.720
which justified you entering the building. So you find some

1314
01:09:10.920 --> 01:09:14.039
justification even though you didn't technically have a warrant.

1315
01:09:14.159 --> 01:09:17.439
I feel like I'm already I've already compromised my integrity,

1316
01:09:17.600 --> 01:09:18.920
so can't any.

1317
01:09:19.199 --> 01:09:20.720
You might as well just go all the way.

1318
01:09:21.039 --> 01:09:22.880
No, I have to follow.

1319
01:09:22.960 --> 01:09:24.880
You're going to follow the book on this one, Okay,

1320
01:09:25.079 --> 01:09:28.960
let the about you drug user go free. I don't know.

1321
01:09:29.039 --> 01:09:31.079
That's tough. It's actually a tough one. I think I

1322
01:09:31.119 --> 01:09:33.079
would follow the book to you though. Yeah, I'm a

1323
01:09:33.159 --> 01:09:33.800
rule follower.

1324
01:09:34.199 --> 01:09:34.840
You really are?

1325
01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:36.560
Yeah? All right?

1326
01:09:36.640 --> 01:09:38.760
Last one, I kind of am not just I think

1327
01:09:38.800 --> 01:09:43.760
people kind of know that in general, I'm not really renegade. No, No,

1328
01:09:43.840 --> 01:09:45.520
not at all like I used to be. Now, I'm

1329
01:09:45.560 --> 01:09:49.760
pretty much I hardly ever my speed, but depending how

1330
01:09:49.800 --> 01:09:51.680
you define speeding, book, go ahead, all right.

1331
01:09:51.760 --> 01:09:55.119
Last one, you have a high value confidential informant who

1332
01:09:55.159 --> 01:09:57.880
provides you with tips that have led to arrests of

1333
01:09:58.520 --> 01:10:02.039
major cartel leaders. One night, the confidential informant is picked

1334
01:10:02.119 --> 01:10:05.720
up for a minor offense like drunken, disorderly or petty theft.

1335
01:10:05.960 --> 01:10:08.279
If you let him get booked, his cover might be

1336
01:10:08.319 --> 01:10:11.000
blown or he might stop helping you. So do you

1337
01:10:11.319 --> 01:10:13.479
let him be booked like anyone else and let the

1338
01:10:13.520 --> 01:10:15.920
law be the law? Or do you pull some strings

1339
01:10:16.079 --> 01:10:18.359
and get him released without being charged?

1340
01:10:18.399 --> 01:10:20.279
I mean, aren't you supposed to do that for your CI?

1341
01:10:20.720 --> 01:10:29.479
I mean technically, I mean Telty did right on the wire, mcnelty.

1342
01:10:29.560 --> 01:10:31.720
Yeah, well, mcdulty. I don't know if McNulty is the

1343
01:10:31.720 --> 01:10:36.359
best example of a ethical detective, but you would, you would.

1344
01:10:36.560 --> 01:10:39.199
I mean I think I think that peoplelice do all

1345
01:10:39.239 --> 01:10:41.000
the time for their cis right.

1346
01:10:41.159 --> 01:10:43.199
Yeah, I think so too. Yeah, that one's probably not

1347
01:10:43.239 --> 01:10:47.319
that uncommon at all. All right, well, you scored, We're

1348
01:10:47.359 --> 01:10:50.960
going to call you the utilitarian, okay. You you believe

1349
01:10:51.119 --> 01:10:55.000
that the ends justify the means. You're driven by noble

1350
01:10:55.119 --> 01:10:57.880
cause corruption, so the belief that sometimes you have to

1351
01:10:57.880 --> 01:11:00.840
do bad things to achieve a greater good. You want

1352
01:11:00.840 --> 01:11:03.600
to get along with your fellow officers, you want to

1353
01:11:03.600 --> 01:11:04.479
smooth things over.

1354
01:11:04.640 --> 01:11:07.560
So yeah, I think that's that's I think I think.

1355
01:11:07.439 --> 01:11:11.119
That's reasonable about you. I think I'm probably that, or

1356
01:11:11.159 --> 01:11:13.199
I might be more of the buy the book person.

1357
01:11:13.439 --> 01:11:14.520
I'm a little bit in the middle.

1358
01:11:14.720 --> 01:11:17.239
So your partner isn't going to trust you as much,

1359
01:11:17.359 --> 01:11:19.199
and the guys on the forest aren't going to invite

1360
01:11:19.239 --> 01:11:21.399
you exactly go for drinks.

1361
01:11:21.039 --> 01:11:23.119
With That's the problem with the buy the book.

1362
01:11:23.760 --> 01:11:26.079
You're going to report your fellow officers if their shoes

1363
01:11:26.079 --> 01:11:28.199
aren't shiny, and yeah, yeah.

1364
01:11:28.079 --> 01:11:30.680
You probably would be the pria of the police department

1365
01:11:30.840 --> 01:11:34.039
and get promoted faster than totally totally you would.

1366
01:11:34.960 --> 01:11:37.319
So I tried to write a poem for you for

1367
01:11:37.399 --> 01:11:40.840
your birthday, but it was a spectacular fact though, So

1368
01:11:40.920 --> 01:11:43.279
I am just going to say some words to you

1369
01:11:43.319 --> 01:11:47.640
that you're amazing, you're loved, You work super duper hard

1370
01:11:47.760 --> 01:11:50.720
for our family, you work really hard for this podcast,

1371
01:11:50.920 --> 01:11:55.880
and you're loved and appreciated, and you're you're handsome. No

1372
01:11:55.920 --> 01:11:58.159
one knows that but me, but you're you're very handsome,

1373
01:11:58.319 --> 01:12:01.239
and uh, I don't know. Well, that's happy birthday. You

1374
01:12:01.279 --> 01:12:03.560
are amazing, You are the best, and I hope you

1375
01:12:03.640 --> 01:12:05.560
have a wonderful year.

1376
01:12:05.920 --> 01:12:08.720
Oh thank you so much. That sounded like poetry to me,

1377
01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:11.720
So I will I will accept that as poetry.

1378
01:12:11.760 --> 01:12:14.560
I am not I'm okay with words, but I'm not

1379
01:12:14.600 --> 01:12:17.880
good poetry. I've just never been yeah, never been a poet.

1380
01:12:18.439 --> 01:12:19.079
And you know it.

1381
01:12:20.720 --> 01:12:22.399
I do well. Thank you, It's very nice of you

1382
01:12:22.479 --> 01:12:24.960
to say. I appreciate it. One last thing before we go,

1383
01:12:25.079 --> 01:12:27.119
I wanted to give a quick shout out to a

1384
01:12:27.159 --> 01:12:30.920
fellow podcaster. Her name is Eileen Zen. She reached out

1385
01:12:30.920 --> 01:12:33.359
to us about a case that really needs more attention.

1386
01:12:33.840 --> 01:12:36.880
She created a show. It's called The Victim in Surprise

1387
01:12:37.039 --> 01:12:39.760
and it tells the story of her friend Amal Baja,

1388
01:12:40.039 --> 01:12:43.359
who was murdered in her home near Phoenix in twenty seventeen.

1389
01:12:43.680 --> 01:12:46.800
The case remains unsolved and Eileen is working really hard

1390
01:12:46.840 --> 01:12:49.720
to bring awareness and push for justice. So if you're

1391
01:12:49.760 --> 01:12:53.479
looking for a powerful, personal true crime story, check out

1392
01:12:53.479 --> 01:12:57.000
The Victim in Surprise and help to amplify Amal's story.

1393
01:12:57.159 --> 01:12:58.880
And you'll put a link to her show in our

1394
01:12:58.920 --> 01:13:01.760
show notes. Absolutely, we have received a lot of nice

1395
01:13:01.880 --> 01:13:05.600
emails and messages from listeners recently saying that they just

1396
01:13:05.640 --> 01:13:08.279
appreciate the work that we do, and I just want

1397
01:13:08.319 --> 01:13:11.560
to say thank you sincerely. We appreciate your support and

1398
01:13:11.600 --> 01:13:13.960
your encouragement. It means so much to us it does.

1399
01:13:14.520 --> 01:13:18.000
Please rate, review, follow and subscribe, Find us on social

1400
01:13:18.079 --> 01:13:21.439
media and YouTube, or send us an email at Lovemarykill

1401
01:13:21.600 --> 01:13:23.520
at gmail dot com.

1402
01:13:23.119 --> 01:13:26.640
And please consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash

1403
01:13:26.680 --> 01:13:30.479
Lovemrykill one tier five dollars a month for early ad

1404
01:13:30.520 --> 01:13:33.560
free access and a monthly bonus episode.

1405
01:13:33.199 --> 01:13:35.720
Until next time. Don't care a husband and don't kill

1406
01:13:35.760 --> 01:13:36.119
your wife.

1407
01:14:09.439 --> 01:14:16.720
Back to