Aug. 11, 2025

Carol Kennedy and Steve DeMocker - Part 1

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Carol Kennedy was a therapist, an artist, and a devoted mother of two. In July 2008, just five weeks after her divorce was finalized, she was brutally bludgeoned to death in her Prescott, Arizona home. Suspicion quickly turned to her ex-husband, Steve DeMocker — a charismatic but financially troubled stockbroker who was deep in debt. With no eyewitnesses, no murder weapon, and a complex trail of circumstantial evidence, prosecutors faced an uphill battle. What followed was a years-long legal saga filled with delays, courtroom drama, and emotional testimony. Through it all, Steve and Carol’s daughters stood by their father, convinced of his innocence — even as the state pushed for conviction.

Today's snacks: Buc-ee's Steakhouse Beef Jerky and Buc-ee's Praline Pecans (thanks Carla!)

Listen to part 2 today!

Sources:

WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina.

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And if there's one thing we've learned and over twenty

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years of marriage.

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It's a some days you'll feel like killing your husband, and.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Tina, Hey Rich?

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How are you?

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I'm okay? How are you?

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I am doing good excellence.

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We're recording this on Monday, August fourth, and we just

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got back from a vacation.

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Have you recovered yet?

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No?

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I have not, have you?

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It really is true what they say when you take

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a vacation, you need like a vacation to recover from

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your vacation.

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There's so many different vacations, you know. There's vacations where

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you sit on a beach for a week. There's vacations

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when you go skiing or whatever. But you know, we

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were pretty active and we drove. We drove a lot.

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You drove, You drove a lot. I was passenger a lot.

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Well it was a nice time, but now it's time

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to get back to real life.

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Okay. If you insist I really unplugged last.

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Week, yeah you did, but.

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You did not you were working away in this case,

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you know.

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I get up earlier than most of our family members.

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And I actually really enjoy the early morning hours. And

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so I would get up at like seven am and

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work for a couple hours, and I really, yeah, I

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actually enjoyed that.

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Good. You make me sound like a slacker, like you're

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working on the podcast.

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Well, you work on the opposite end of the day.

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You stay up late and work and I go to

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bed early.

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Well, happy August.

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It's August already. Yeah, I can't believe it.

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The all season. Yeah, someone told me. Our friend Chess

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told me the other day that the Lions had their

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first game. You didn't talk about that at all.

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We were on vacation, yeah, and I think we were No,

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I think we were driving at that time. So no,

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I didn't watch it. But pre season I don't.

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So it doesn't bother you at all.

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No, it doesn't. Preseason means absolutely nothing.

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Okay, if you say so, I say so. It's our

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anniversary month, it sure is. Do you know when our

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anniversary is?

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I think I remember that. Yeah you do.

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Why don't you prove it to everyone listening that you.

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Know in August twenty seconds?

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Okay you do know?

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Yeah, Yeah, I can't believe you wouldn't think I would

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know that.

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Well, most a lot of men don't, or you you know,

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might forget in the moment. Are you going to be

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in town that week?

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It's indelibly etched into my brain. I believe I'll be

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in town. Yeah, I think I have a trip next

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week and then after that no travel for a while.

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To say this, oh, really.

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A lot sounds so disappointed.

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We've a lot of together time, and you know it's

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I don't mind too much when you're traveling a little bit.

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Well, usually talk about this at the end, but I

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did want to mention it up front for once, because

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I know there are some of you that probably don't

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listen to the very end. If you're enjoying the show

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As always, well, I have.

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A snack for you today that our lovely friend and

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listener Carla sent to us.

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We got Carla's lovely package today.

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Such a nice package. There were more than just snacks

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in there. There were all these nice little gifts and it.

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Was so a couple of silly things that really made

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us chuckle.

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But she sent us two things from BUCkies, which we

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talk about Buckeyes, a lot, even though we've never been

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to a Bucki's and we didn't get to go to

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one on our road.

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Trip but now, but we did go to a lot

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of gas stations.

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We did. But she sent us some Steakhouse beef jerky,

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which she says it's a little bit of spicy and

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some praline pecans a little bit of sweet.

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Amazing.

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Yeah, let's give them a try. What did you think

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about those lovely snacks?

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I thought they were amazing and Carla left us sweet

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little notes on everything and just the best. We love

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you so much for doing that for us, Carla, that

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was just above and beyond totally.

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They were really good. I love the steakhouse jerkey, really

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good flavor. Yeah, pecans yummy.

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I need to go use the new toothbrush that Carla

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sent me though when we were on vacation. The thing

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I missed most other that are sweet cats, was my

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water flosser. Carlo works in a dentist office, and she'll

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be happy to know that. I believe that I have

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impeccable dental but if you don't have a water floster,

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I really recommend getting a water flosser. But thank you

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so much for the snacks. Carla and the rest of

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the things in the package, they were amazing. One thing

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that Carlo put in the package and a few other

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people have sent them to along with their packages, is

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a magnet, like either something that matters to them or

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from their estate. And I would really love to start

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a collection of magnets. So if anyone else would like

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to send us a magnet, I'm horrible about asking anyone

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for anything, but you can send packages or you know,

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a small trinket or whatever to LMK pod po box

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one one one Dexter, Michigan for eight one three zero.

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Well on with the show. I know you've been dying

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to tell me about this case I have.

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In the summer of two thousand and eight, fifty three

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year old Carol Kennedy was finally beginning to feel at peace.

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After five long years of separation, arguments and drawn out

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divorce proceedings, her marriage to Steve Demacher was officially over,

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and for the first time in a long time, Carol

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felt hopeful about what came next. Just days earlier, she

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and Steve had shared a surprisingly pleasant dinner with their daughters,

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twenty year old Katie and sixteen year old Charlotte, before

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heading to the Phoenix airport to see Katie off on

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a study abroad trip to South Africa. Carol had even

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confided in a friend afterward, for the first time in ages,

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being around Steve hadn't creeped her out. Her relationship with

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Charlotte was improving too. The divorce had strained their bond,

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especially since Charlotte had always been closer to her dad.

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But as Carol waved goodbye to her oldest daughter at

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the airport, surrounded by a rare moment of family harmony,

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she allowed herself to feel something she hadn't felt in

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a while, optimism, and then Steve ruined it. Just a

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few days later, he called Carroll and asked her to

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meet for coffee. Confused, she went. What he suggested next

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was even more baffling. He wanted to get back together,

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to start dating again, to remarry. Carroll shut it down immediately.

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She had been there, done that, and she had no

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interest in making the same mistake twice. But Carroll wouldn't

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have longed to enjoy this new chapter of her life.

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On the evening of July second, during her nightly phone

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call with her mother Ruth in Nashville, Carroll suddenly gasped,

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oh no. Ruth would later describe the tone in her

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daughter's voice as startled, alarmed, but not terrified, as if

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something or someone unsettling had just appeared. Oh no, not again,

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she thought Carroll might have meant. Then the line went dead.

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Ruth tried calling back over and over, no answer. Panicked,

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she called Steve, no answer there either. Finally, she reached

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out to the Prescott, Arizona police and begged them to

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check on her daughter. An officer arrived about an hour later.

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No one came to the door. He walked the perimeter

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with a flashlight, scanning windows until he saw her. A

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woman on the floor, blood pooled around her head. Carol

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Kennedy was dead, bludgeoned to death in her own home.

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Her ex husband, Steve Demacher, quickly became the prime suspect.

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He had claimed that he had been out for a

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mountain bike ride that evening, not far from Carroll's home,

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but for several key hours surrounding her murder, no one

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could reach him on his cell phone. From the start,

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police zeroed in on Steve, But did they jump to conclusions?

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Did they ignore other leads in their rush to build

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a case against the ex husband. Some say it was

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a textbook investigation, Others say it was anything but, And

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when the dust finally settled, one question lingered, did they

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get it right? Virginia Carrol Kennedy was born in July

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of nineteen fifty four in Nashville, Tennessee, the second of

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two children to Ruth and Alvin A. G. Kennedy. Her

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father was a former Army staff sergeant who went on

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to work for the US Postal Service, first as a

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mail carrier and later as an auditor. Her mother, Ruth,

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held a few public sector jobs, including one with the

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Tennessee Department of Education, before eventually moving into the private

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sector with the American Association for State and Local History.

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From a young age, Carol had a strong sense of self.

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She disliked her given name, Virginia, and when she started

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elementary school, she made a decision from now on she

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would be Carol. It's really young to decide that you

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want to go by a different name and stick with it.

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It is I wish I would have thought of that

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as a possibility.

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When I was that young. I said I wanted to

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go by Richie. And that lasted like about a month,

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and I was like, I hate Richie.

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I call you Ritchie all the time. Did your family

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go along with it? Did they call you Richie?

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Yeah?

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Yeah they did.

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That's very nice.

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The Kennedy family were regular church goers, and Carol developed

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a sense of spirituality early in life. She was bright,

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well liked by her classmates, and seemed destined for something special.

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At fifteen, she was chosen to represent in Nashville in

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the Miss Angenoux Contest, a pageant based on beauty, personality, poise,

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and presents. We'll post a newspaper clipping from that time

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where you can see a photo of young Carol looking

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confident and composed. The article mentions that she traveled to

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Acapulco that summer for the finals and won a collection

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of very nineteen seventies prizes, an Instant hairsetter, a Carmen

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makeup mirror, a Kodak Instomatic camera, and a Panasonic portable phonograph,

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among others. Following that, Carol signed with a local modeling agency,

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but the work wasn't what she imagined, far less glamorous,

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far more tedious, and she gave it up not long after.

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Carol had always been close to her older brother John,

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but After high school, the two drifted apart. John struggled

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with heroin addiction and, in his words, became a quote

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worthless type of SOB for a lot of years. For

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nearly two decades, they were estranged. Eventually, though they reconnected,

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and despite living in different states, they remained close for

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the rest of Carol's life. After graduating high school in

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nineteen seventy two, Carroll enrolled at Peabody College now part

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of Vanderbilt University, where she pursued a degree in education.

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She lived at home and finished her degree in just

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three years. She was eager to move out, start her

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adult life and be independent. It wasn't long after she

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started college that she met Tom, a charming young man

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working in pharmaceutical sales after dropping out of school. The

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two quickly fell in love and got engaged. Carol's mother, Ruth,

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liked Tom well enough, but thought her daughter was too

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young to be getting married, and Ruth may have been right.

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The marriage lasted only a year and a half, still

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it ended amicably. After college, Carol spent a year at

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the Hartwood School in Massachusetts, where she immersed herself in

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timber framing, gardening, carpentry, and herbalism, earthy, hands on skills

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that would continue to shape her lifestyle. She later taught

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school for a while in Richmond, Virginia, before returning to

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Nashville in nineteen eighty one and becoming a certified yoga instructor.

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Not long after, Carol took a trip to New York.

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When she returned, she told her best friend and roommate, Debbie,

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that she had met someone, an incredible man named Steve Democher.

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Stephen Demacher, whose middle name, strangely enough, was Carol, was

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born in January nineteen fifty four in Rochester, New York.

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He was the.

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Oldest of nine children born to doctor John and Jan Democher.

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The Demokers were an ambitious and accomplished family. Steve's youngest

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sibling won a Pulitzer Prize for his photography documenting the

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aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and now works as a drone

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pilot for NASA. His sister, Mary is a heart teacher,

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author and public speaker. Sharon became a doctor susan direct's

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research protection programs at Pace University, and the list doesn't

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stop there. Their father, John, was a radiologist with his

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own private practice who also consulted for other hospitals. Their mother,

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Jan was just as a co pomplished. She earned a

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master's in nursing, taught obstetrical nursing, got her doctorate in education,

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and later earned a master's in divinity to become a minister.

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She also worked part time as a chaplain at a

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nursing home, all while raising nine kids. Wow, I don't

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do anything, take a lobe of bredery now and then

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and do some laundry. But these people are sound very

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awesome misressive. Steve attended a private boarding school in Rochester

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and graduated in nineteen seventy two. He then enrolled at

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Prescott College, a small, progressive liberal arts school in Arizona,

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where he majored in wilderness leadership. Prescott College, which would

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later play a big role in both Steve and Carroll's lives,

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was known for being a bit of an experiment in

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alternative education. It was founded in nineteen sixty six as

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a pioneering, even radical institution focused on experiential learning. So

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they sound like they're into kind of like an alternate lifestyle.

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In nineteen seventy four, while Steve was still a student,

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the college abruptly went bankrupt and shut down but a

285
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scrappy group of faculty and students refused to let it die.

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They kept classes going in a run down hotel nearby.

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The press dubbed it a college that wouldn't die, and

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indeed it survived. It's still around today with a mission

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centered on justice, sustainability, and experiential learning. While at Prescott,

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Steve was deeply into outdoor adventure. He did things like

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extreme whitewater rafting, mountain climbing, and kayaking. He was also

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deeply involved with the ladies. It was the early seventies

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00:14:38.559 --> 00:14:42.080
a time of free love and experimentation, and Steve fully

294
00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:45.480
embraced it. By all accounts, he dated a lot of women,

295
00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:49.440
had a lot of sex, but wasn't looking for anything exclusive.

296
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One summer during college, he stayed in Vermont with a

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girlfriend and ended up taking her younger brother on a

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mountain climbing chip. On that trip, he rescued a young

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00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:01.519
woman who had sprained her ink four hundred feet up

300
00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:05.399
on a rock wall, carrying her to safety. That wasn't

301
00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:08.320
the only time Steve would risk his life to save someone.

302
00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:12.080
Several years later, during a group kayaking trip, a woman

303
00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:15.600
got sucked into a dangerous vortex and the rapids. She

304
00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:20.000
lost her paddle, then her kayak, and was quickly losing consciousness.

305
00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:24.279
Steve paddled into the vortex, flipped his own kayak, rabbed

306
00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:27.399
her limp body, and somehow managed to right his boat

307
00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:30.360
and steer them both to shore. Once they made it out,

308
00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:33.720
the woman came to By the time Steve met Carol

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00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:36.639
in the early nineteen eighties, he was back in Rochester

310
00:15:36.799 --> 00:15:40.639
pursuing a PhD in education. His focus was on critical

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social theory, a discipline that explores how power and inequality

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00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:48.879
are embedded in society, with the goal of challenging injustice

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and promoting social change. From the start, it seemed like

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00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:55.480
Steve and Carroll shared not just a spark, but a purpose.

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00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:58.519
They were driven by a desire to do good, to teach,

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00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:01.799
to help others, to make a meaningful difference in the world.

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00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:05.559
They had plenty in common intelligence, a deep love of nature,

318
00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:10.200
a strong sense of spirituality and connectedness, and so it's

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00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:13.039
no surprise that during Carroll's visit to New York, the

320
00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:16.120
two hit it off immediately. They began a long distance

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00:16:16.159 --> 00:16:19.279
relationship and even took a romantic trip to Mexico together.

322
00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:23.279
When Carroll returned home, she told her roommate quote, I

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00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:27.399
have found my soulmate. There is just a knowingness. I

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00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:30.159
feel it and I know it. He is my person

325
00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:33.600
that I'm supposed to go through life with. When Steve

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00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:36.320
visited Carol in Nashville, he went over her friends and

327
00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:39.759
family almost instantly. To them, he seemed like everything a

328
00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:45.159
woman could want. Smart, charming, outdoorsy, ambitious, a perfect match

329
00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:48.320
for Carol. After a few months of long distance dating,

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Carroll packed up her life and moved to New York

331
00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:53.159
to be with him. She enrolled in grad school at

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00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:57.360
the University of Rochester, Whereceived was pursuing his doctorate. Soon

333
00:16:57.399 --> 00:17:02.519
after they got engaged, parents, Ruth and Ag came to visit.

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00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:05.960
They were much more comfortable with this relationship than her

335
00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:09.599
first marriage, but also a bit overwhelmed. The Demockers were

336
00:17:09.640 --> 00:17:13.640
warm and welcoming, but also large in number, highly accomplished,

337
00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:16.680
and to Ruth and Ag, who were quiet, working class

338
00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:20.279
folks from a small family, a little intimidating. The wedding

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00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:23.440
took place on October tenth, nineteen eighty two, in the

340
00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:26.920
backyard of Steve's parents' home in Webster, New York, overlooking

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00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:30.240
Lake Ontario. It was a beautiful setting for what looked

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00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:33.359
like the start of a beautiful life. Steve's best friend

343
00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:37.000
from college, Sturgis Robinson, came to the wedding and immediately

344
00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:39.640
hit it off with Carol. But knowing Steve as well

345
00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:42.839
as he did, and knowing his history with women, Sturgis

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felt compelled to speak up. He pulled Carol aside and

347
00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:48.799
asked if she really knew what she was getting into.

348
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Carrol just laughed and said, Oh, don't worry, I can

349
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take care of him.

350
00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:57.400
It's pretty bold to pull the bride to be aside

351
00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:00.640
and be like, are you sure about this? I don't

352
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:02.440
know exactly what he said to her, but you know,

353
00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:05.000
I think he was implying that Steve was kind of

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00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:05.880
a womanizer.

355
00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:08.720
Yeah, I never told you what your mom said to

356
00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:12.799
me on our wedding day to daid, why are you laughing?

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Carol earned her master's degree in education in nineteen eighty three,

358
00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:22.000
focusing on counseling and human development. Steve finished his PhD

359
00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:24.920
in nineteen eighty six. During that time, they lived in

360
00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:28.480
a guesthouse on the Democra family property, and Carol became

361
00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:32.519
a true member of the extended democer clan. Everyone adored her.

362
00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:36.599
After graduation, Steve landed a job at Patagonia. Working with

363
00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:39.839
his friend Sturgis. The two ran outdo our programs for

364
00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:43.480
Patagonia employees, helping them get hands on experience with the

365
00:18:43.559 --> 00:18:49.119
gear they were selling. Love Patagonia, they settled in Ohai, California,

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a peaceful mountain town known for its spiritual vibe and

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natural beauty.

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Do you remember, oh Hi?

369
00:18:54.039 --> 00:18:57.480
I do? I remember going with your sister, Yeah, brother

370
00:18:57.519 --> 00:18:57.839
in law.

371
00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:00.680
It was a really cool bookstore, the books yet.

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00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:03.559
But I remember the most too. Just a really different

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vibe to that city.

374
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For sure.

375
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On the surface it looked like an idyllic life, but

376
00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:12.119
beneath the surface, cracks were beginning to form. Steve confided

377
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:14.640
to Sturgis that he had an affair with a coworker

378
00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:18.680
at Patagonia, something that went against the company's core principles.

379
00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:21.599
It's unclear whether the affair was the reason Steve left

380
00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:25.160
the company, but it's possible. It's also unclear if Carol

381
00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:28.880
ever knew. Sturgis suspected she did, but she may have

382
00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:34.000
chosen denial over confrontation. From California, the couple moved to Vermont,

383
00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:37.839
Carol taught psychology at a community college, then became a

384
00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:42.200
psychological counselor at another nearby school. In a local newspaper

385
00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:45.519
article announcing her new role, Carol mentioned that one of

386
00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:49.160
her personal goals was to write a book about domestic violence.

387
00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:52.880
Had Carol had any experience with domestic violence.

388
00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:55.400
I don't believe so, but I think in her education

389
00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:58.480
she just really developed an interest in helping people, and

390
00:19:58.519 --> 00:20:00.240
I think that was one of the areas that she

391
00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:01.920
really felt strongly about.

392
00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:05.119
While in Verman, Carrol gave birth to their first child,

393
00:20:05.319 --> 00:20:09.000
a daughter, Katie, born in May nineteen eighty eight. Just

394
00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:11.480
a few months later, the family packed up once again

395
00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:15.559
and moved across the country to Prescott, Arizona, where Steve

396
00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:18.680
had accepted a faculty position at his alma mater. He

397
00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:22.559
was now a sociology professor at Prescott College, the same

398
00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:26.759
institution that once nearly died but had refused to disappear.

399
00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:29.039
We'll be back after a break.

400
00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:38.400
One of the things about this story that I find

401
00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:41.680
so sad and tragic, and I'm being reminded of it

402
00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:44.039
again as we go through there the background, But it

403
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:47.200
just feels like Steve and Carol had everything you could

404
00:20:47.240 --> 00:20:50.000
ever want in life like they had. They were both healthy,

405
00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:53.720
they were into outdoors, they were helping people, They had

406
00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:56.480
two beautiful, healthy daughters, and it just seems like they

407
00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:58.240
had so much going for them.

408
00:20:58.599 --> 00:21:00.079
I think you could say that about a lot a

409
00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:02.400
lot of the couples that we cover. Yeah, people don't

410
00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:06.480
realize how much they have to be grateful for. They

411
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.200
always want more, you know what I mean.

412
00:21:08.359 --> 00:21:11.680
Right after the move to Arizona, Carol also joined the

413
00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:15.599
faculty at Prescott College. Both she and Steve quickly became

414
00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:20.039
popular professors at the small alternative school. Steve taught courses

415
00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:23.640
on topics like the politics of food and sexual imagery

416
00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:27.599
and advertising interesting. He also led groups of students on

417
00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:32.920
outdoor adventures, kayaking, whitewater rafting, wilderness expeditions. He had a

418
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:36.640
magnetic personality and his classes were always in high demand.

419
00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:42.640
Carol's classes were more introspective, more soulful. She taught yoga, psychology,

420
00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:46.000
painting from the heart, and a course called dream Work,

421
00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:49.960
which helped students explore the meaning behind their dreams wow.

422
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:54.240
Her students adored her. Many described her classes as life changing,

423
00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:58.160
and Carol herself as a mentor and role model. In

424
00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:01.480
nineteen ninety, Steve was promoted to dean of the resident

425
00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:04.839
degree program, reportedly the youngest dean in the country at

426
00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:08.000
that time. From the outside, everything seemed to be going

427
00:22:08.039 --> 00:22:12.480
remarkably well. They were a power couple, smart, outdoorsy, passionate

428
00:22:12.519 --> 00:22:15.920
about teaching and personal growth. But the cracks that had

429
00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:19.640
started back in California weren't going away. Steve's affair at

430
00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:23.279
Patagonia hadn't been a one time mistake, and whether Carol

431
00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:26.119
had known about that fleeing or not, she soon became

432
00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:29.519
aware of others. In nineteen ninety one, just days before

433
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:32.799
giving birth to their second daughter, Charlotte, Carol discovered that

434
00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:36.720
Steve had been having an affair with their midwife. She

435
00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:37.799
was devastated.

436
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:40.720
Okay, that's not all right, No.

437
00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:43.480
That's totally not alright. One night, she called her best

438
00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:47.000
friend Debbie in tears, barely able to speak through the sobs.

439
00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:49.680
I don't know what she did if she still used

440
00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:51.480
this midwife, but I'm assuming she had to. It was

441
00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:54.559
only a couple a few days before giving birth. I

442
00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:58.640
can't even imagine how. It's very uncomfortable, and it wouldn't

443
00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:01.440
be the last betrayal. Steve was known to have slept

444
00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:04.319
with at least two Prescott College students who had worked

445
00:23:04.359 --> 00:23:08.119
for the couple as nanny's. Over time, Steve's behavior started

446
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:11.599
raising alarms. Even at a place like Prescott, a liberal,

447
00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:15.640
free spirited school often dubbed a hippie college, lines were

448
00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:19.480
being crossed. During Steve's five year tenure as dean, his

449
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:23.240
affairs became something of an open secret. Complaints began to

450
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:27.839
pile up, formal allegations of sexual harassment and abuse of power.

451
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:31.440
His reputation as a respected educator was giving way to

452
00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:35.480
something far more troubling. Steve had many flings over the years,

453
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:39.720
somewhere one night stans. Others were long term affairs. Some

454
00:23:39.880 --> 00:23:43.240
Carol found out about, some she didn't. Years later she

455
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:47.000
would count at least fourteen that she knew about hikes.

456
00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:48.400
Why was she so forgiving?

457
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:53.839
While each time the pattern was the same, discovery, confrontation, apologies,

458
00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:56.720
Steve would swear that he was a changed man, that

459
00:23:56.759 --> 00:24:00.359
he was working on himself, that he needed help take

460
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:02.599
him back, hoping that this time would be different.

461
00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:05.279
So they did not have an open marriage.

462
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:06.119
Oh no, absolutely not.

463
00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:08.519
And did Carol have any flings? Of her own.

464
00:24:09.079 --> 00:24:11.440
There may have been a fling or two.

465
00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:13.759
Think by the time you get to the tenth affair,

466
00:24:13.880 --> 00:24:16.240
then it just I would think, if you're going to

467
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:18.960
forgive him, then yeah, there's this sense of well then

468
00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:20.759
I guess it's okay. Then I might as well do

469
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:21.160
the same.

470
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:21.559
Yeah.

471
00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:24.160
I would think so too, Carol in her mind, So

472
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:26.519
she didn't stay with Steve because she was weak. She

473
00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:30.279
stayed because she believed that Steve was her soulmate. So

474
00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:32.319
she believed he was the man that she was meant

475
00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:34.759
to go through life with. She had promised to love

476
00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:37.720
him in sickness and in health, and to her, Steve's

477
00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:41.400
infidelity wasn't just betrayal. It was a sickness, and she

478
00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:43.799
believed it was her life's work to help him heal

479
00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:47.519
from that. Soon after Charlotte was born, Steve and Carroll

480
00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:49.799
bought a one and a half acre plot of land

481
00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:54.160
in Williamson Valley, a rugged scenic area just outside of Prescott.

482
00:24:54.599 --> 00:24:58.240
It was peaceful and secluded, surrounded by fruit and nut trees,

483
00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:02.000
with open ranchland behind it where people hiked and biked.

484
00:25:02.119 --> 00:25:05.680
The views of the surrounding mountains were breathtaking. As they

485
00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:08.599
designed their dream home. Steve and a few college buddies

486
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:12.079
built a temporary lodging on the property, a small structure

487
00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:15.200
that would eventually become a guesthouse once the main home

488
00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:19.440
was finished. By nineteen ninety seven, their dream house was complete.

489
00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:23.880
It had four bedrooms, four bathrooms, vaulted ceilings, and plenty

490
00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:26.960
of space for the family to grow. The guesthouse was

491
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:31.200
converted into Carroll's art studio and Steve's workout room. It

492
00:25:31.240 --> 00:25:34.400
was everything that they'd envisioned. Life in the valley had

493
00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:37.440
its own kind of rhythm. Steve and Carroll regularly took

494
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:41.039
Katie and Charlotte hiking and camping, passing down their shared

495
00:25:41.079 --> 00:25:46.640
love of the outdoors. On the surface, things looked serene, stable, fulfilled,

496
00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:50.519
but big changes were coming. In nineteen ninety five, after

497
00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:54.839
seven years at Prescott College, Steve made a dramatic career shift.

498
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:58.279
He and his best friend Sturgis enrolled in a stockbroker

499
00:25:58.359 --> 00:26:02.480
training program at aged Way, leaving behind academia for the

500
00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:03.720
world of high finance.

501
00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:07.279
Do you think him leaving academia behind had anything to

502
00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:11.279
do with wanting to have more affairs, more freedom where

503
00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:14.400
you know, as a dean of a university it's frowned

504
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:16.680
upon to have affairs, especially with students.

505
00:26:16.759 --> 00:26:18.759
I'm not sure if it had anything to do with that.

506
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:22.160
I think it had came from a desire to I

507
00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:24.480
think he became more materialistic. And I don't know if

508
00:26:24.519 --> 00:26:27.880
the changing careers caused him to become more materialistic or

509
00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:30.960
if he wanted more things like he just wanted. It

510
00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:34.039
seems like he wanted to be kind of a different person.

511
00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:35.079
Interesting.

512
00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:38.319
It was a move with much greater earning potential, but

513
00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:41.480
it raised eyebrows. Steve's mother, who had been proud of

514
00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:44.440
his work in education, asked him why he was giving

515
00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:48.039
up on helping people. Steve told her, I'm still helping people.

516
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:51.440
I'm helping them invest wisely so they can retire five

517
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:54.319
to ten years earlier than they would have otherwise. But

518
00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:57.160
it didn't take long for another side of Steve to emerge,

519
00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:01.559
one that Sturgis hadn't fully seen before. About six months

520
00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:05.359
into their new roles, Sturgis had developed a promising relationship

521
00:27:05.359 --> 00:27:08.240
with a senior broker who was about to retire. The

522
00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:11.440
broker had promised to hand over his entire book of business,

523
00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:15.680
roughly forty million dollars in client assets to Sturgis, it

524
00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:18.759
would be a massive step up, a life changing opportunity

525
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:21.599
for a new broker. On a Friday, the broker sent

526
00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:24.960
a message to all of his clients introducing Sturgis as

527
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:28.680
his successor. But when Sturgis began calling those clients the

528
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:32.160
following Monday, he was stunned to learn that Steve had

529
00:27:32.200 --> 00:27:35.160
already called every single one of them over the weekend.

530
00:27:35.319 --> 00:27:38.319
He did not, and convinced them to move their accounts

531
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:40.960
to him instead. Do you believe that?

532
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:42.440
What a weasel?

533
00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:47.079
I know? Sturgis confronted Steve in disbelief, but Steve flatly

534
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:50.440
denied it. He denied everything, and gaslit his best friend,

535
00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:54.400
and just like that, their decades long friendship began to unravel.

536
00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:57.599
For Sturgis, it was the moment he began to see

537
00:27:57.599 --> 00:28:01.799
Steve clearly not as the charming, adventurous idealists that he

538
00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:05.480
had once known, but as someone far more calculating. As

539
00:28:05.480 --> 00:28:09.160
Steve began raking in more money, his values started to shift.

540
00:28:09.640 --> 00:28:15.079
He became obsessed with luxury, designer clothes, expensive vacations, flashy gear,

541
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:18.039
and of course, his appetite for women never went away.

542
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:22.039
People who had known Steve for years, friends former colleagues,

543
00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:25.160
even family began to see a change. He came off

544
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:28.759
as arrogant, self absorbed, and increasingly hard to trust.

545
00:28:29.559 --> 00:28:33.039
Approximately how old is Steve during this time of change.

546
00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:35.920
I think he was in his mid forties by this time.

547
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:39.440
In nineteen ninety eight, a woman named Barb on'non moved

548
00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:43.319
to Prescott with her husband and started working at AG Edwards.

549
00:28:43.640 --> 00:28:46.680
She became Steve's assistant, and within a couple of years

550
00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:49.519
the two were in a full blown relationship. It would

551
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:53.039
become the longest romantic relationship Steve ever had outside of

552
00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:56.920
his marriage to Carol. Steve frequently traveled to Phoenix for work,

553
00:28:57.039 --> 00:28:59.839
nearly two hours away by car. He and Carol a

554
00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:03.359
condo there which they had rented to one of Carroll's friends,

555
00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:06.480
a woman named Catherine. When Steve needed to be in

556
00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:08.839
Phoenix for a few days, he would stay at the condo,

557
00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:13.799
and often Barb would come too, supposedly to work with Steve.

558
00:29:14.440 --> 00:29:17.400
Catherine started to notice things. She'd see Steve and Barb

559
00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:20.680
lounging at the pool together. The way they interacted it

560
00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:24.839
didn't seem professional. She suspected something was going on between them,

561
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:27.359
but she wasn't sure. And she didn't want to stir

562
00:29:27.480 --> 00:29:31.000
the pot without proof. And then came the moment that

563
00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:35.039
really stuck with her. One day, Catherine saw Barb parading

564
00:29:35.079 --> 00:29:39.480
around the condo wearing one of Carroll's swimsuits, laughing and joking.

565
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:43.759
She said, I feel just like Carol rubbed Catherine the

566
00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:49.759
wrong way deeply, but still she kept her suspicions to herself. Eventually, though,

567
00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:53.200
Caroll told Catherine that she knew Steve was having an

568
00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:57.119
affair with Barb. Catherine apologized for not saying something sooner.

569
00:29:57.480 --> 00:29:59.960
In truth, the science had been there for a while.

570
00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:03.759
That's so bold and gross of them.

571
00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:05.640
I know, like right in front of Carol's friend.

572
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:09.000
Yeah. In two thousand and four, Steve left a G.

573
00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:12.680
Edwards and took a job at Ubs, and he took

574
00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:16.359
Barb with him. That same year, Barb and her husband divorced.

575
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:20.440
Once the divorce was final, Steve proposed to her. Barb

576
00:30:20.599 --> 00:30:23.599
was shocked she knew that Steve was still married to Carol.

577
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:29.839
She declined, why would why would he propose? This doesn't

578
00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:30.519
make any sense.

579
00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:32.240
It doesn't make any sense, does it.

580
00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:34.920
At some point, Steve in a moment that says so

581
00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:37.720
much about who he was becoming. Made a list, a

582
00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:42.279
literal list, comparing Carol and Barb pros and cons side

583
00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:45.240
by side, and at the bottom of the page he wrote,

584
00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:50.240
Barb wins game, set, match, tournament. I'll be right back.

585
00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:53.720
I need to go throw up. By two thousand and seven,

586
00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:56.799
Steve's income at UBS had soared and he was earning

587
00:30:56.839 --> 00:31:00.680
over a million dollars a year, with Barb still assistant,

588
00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:04.519
taking home thirty percent of that. While Stephen Carroll's marriage

589
00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:08.119
was rocky, sometimes painfully so, there was one thing that

590
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:11.920
they both held sacred, their daughters. No one ever doubted

591
00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:15.200
how much they loved and adored them. Katie and Charlotte

592
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:18.559
were smart, strong willed, and spirited. Much like their parents.

593
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:22.240
Carol made their education their priority. She enrolled them in

594
00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:25.839
schools that followed the Waldorf Method, a teaching philosophy that

595
00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:33.680
emphasizes holistic development intellectual, emotional, physical, and spiritual through creativity, imagination,

596
00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:36.279
and hands on learning. I don't know much about the

597
00:31:36.279 --> 00:31:40.559
Waldorf Method, but I think it's pretty amazing, right, but

598
00:31:40.759 --> 00:31:41.559
very expensive?

599
00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:41.839
Oh?

600
00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:42.559
Really, I think so.

601
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:43.200
Yeah.

602
00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:46.319
For a few years, Carol even homeschooled Katie. Katie was

603
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:49.480
whip smart, but easily bored and prone to challenging authority,

604
00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:54.599
and teaching her wasn't easy. Eventually, Carol realized she couldn't

605
00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:58.079
be both Katie's mother and her teacher, so she found

606
00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:01.759
a private prep boarding school whe Katie could thrive, and

607
00:32:01.799 --> 00:32:05.839
she did. She graduated as a class salutatorian and went

608
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:09.640
on to attend Occidental College in Los Angeles, with her

609
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:12.839
sights set on law school. Through it all, Carol was

610
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:15.799
still trying to save her marriage. She convinced Steve to

611
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:18.160
go to counseling and pushed him to seek treatment for

612
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:21.039
sex addiction, but each time he found a way to

613
00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:26.079
avoid doing the real work, dismissing the therapy, downplaying the problem,

614
00:32:26.359 --> 00:32:30.039
making excuses. Then came a story that revealed a darker

615
00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:34.039
side of Steve, something that deeply unsettled those who heard it.

616
00:32:34.039 --> 00:32:37.440
It involved a cat. A neighborhood cat had been coming

617
00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:40.680
around the Demoker home, picking fights with their own cat

618
00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:44.160
and getting into their things. Steve was fed up, so

619
00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:47.119
one day he lured the cat into the guesthouse and

620
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:50.960
locked it inside. Then, according to his own telling, he

621
00:32:51.079 --> 00:32:54.720
chased the animal around with an object. Accounts vary as

622
00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:57.759
to whether it was a shovel, a kayak, pet paddle,

623
00:32:57.880 --> 00:33:00.799
or a baseball bat, but he beat the cat to death.

624
00:33:01.480 --> 00:33:04.599
He told the story to Catherine, Carroll's friend and former tenant,

625
00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:09.720
laughing as if it were some hilarious anecdote. Catherine is horrified.

626
00:33:10.119 --> 00:33:13.160
She asked if Carol knew. Steve said no, he hadn't

627
00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:17.000
told her, and Catherine knew without question that Carol would

628
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:19.559
have been just as disturbed, if not more.

629
00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:19.759
So.

630
00:33:20.519 --> 00:33:22.160
Wow, that's horrible.

631
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:23.799
It's really disturbing, isn't it.

632
00:33:23.839 --> 00:33:26.880
I give myself one horrible an episode if you're counting.

633
00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:30.680
In two thousand and three, Steve told Carol he wanted

634
00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:33.079
to buy a condo on a golf course in Prescott

635
00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:35.640
and move out. Not to end the marriage, he said,

636
00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:38.920
but simply to get some sleep. What As a stockbroker

637
00:33:38.960 --> 00:33:41.200
in the Mountain West, Steve had to be up before

638
00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:44.680
dawn around four am, usually to catch the markets open

639
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:46.960
in New York. With the girls in the house and

640
00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:49.519
the dogs barking, he claimed it was impossible to get

641
00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:51.880
the rest that he needed. He said he would still

642
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:56.200
be around, just not sleeping there. Surprisingly, Carol agreed, she

643
00:33:56.359 --> 00:33:58.759
understood the sleep issue, and part of her thought it

644
00:33:58.839 --> 00:34:01.279
might be good for Steve to have his own space,

645
00:34:01.799 --> 00:34:06.640
especially for his more obsessive tendencies, like constantly organizing drawers

646
00:34:06.759 --> 00:34:09.679
or making sure every can in the pantry faced the

647
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:10.679
exact same way.

648
00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:12.320
I would just like to state that I think that

649
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:14.000
is completely normal behavior.

650
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:15.920
I thought you might have something to say about that.

651
00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:18.760
But it didn't take long for Carol to realize that

652
00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:22.360
something else was going on. After Steve moved into the condo,

653
00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:25.679
she discovered he was still seeing Barbo Non and it

654
00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:28.400
became clear that this new arrangement had less to do

655
00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:31.360
with getting better sleep and more to do with carving

656
00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:33.760
out private space for his many affairs.

657
00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:36.800
So was he having affairs on top of his affairs?

658
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:37.119
Uh?

659
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:40.880
Huh? That was the moment Carol finally admitted to herself

660
00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:43.920
that she wasn't going to fix Steve, that no amount

661
00:34:43.960 --> 00:34:47.440
of love, counseling, or second chances would change who he was.

662
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:50.679
It was time to start taking care of herself. But

663
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:53.559
even with that realization, it would be three more years

664
00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:56.960
before either of them filed for divorce. They remained stuck

665
00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:00.320
in limbo, some days trying to patch things up, other

666
00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:04.639
days living entirely separate lives. While Steve and Carroll's marriage

667
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:08.880
was falling apart, so was his relationship with Barb. What

668
00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:12.639
began as a business breakup turned personal. Barb had worked

669
00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:15.519
as Steve's assistant for years, but she was also a

670
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:18.599
licensed broker, and she wanted to strike out on her own.

671
00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:22.280
She believed that she was entitled to fifty percent of

672
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:25.239
Steve's book of business, after all, she had helped to

673
00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:29.000
build it, but Steve disagreed. He insisted that their long

674
00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:33.039
standing arrangement where she received thirty percent of his gross earnings,

675
00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:38.840
was more than fair. Negotiations dragged on for months, turning bitter. Eventually,

676
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:42.079
Barb agreed to walk away with thirty percent. It was

677
00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:45.480
during these tense negotiations that Barb saw something she hadn't

678
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:49.360
seen in all her years with Steve, his temper. Steve

679
00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:53.239
was known for being calm, controlled, always in command, but

680
00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:57.159
Barb described two incidents that frightened her. In one, Steve

681
00:35:57.199 --> 00:36:01.000
got inches from her face, speaking aggressively. In another, he

682
00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:03.840
slammed his fists on his desk in a sudden outburst

683
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:06.840
of rage. He never hit her, never raised a hand,

684
00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:10.079
but in those moments, she said, she feared that he could.

685
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:14.760
Despite the emotional and professional fallout. Steve and Barb's relationship

686
00:36:14.840 --> 00:36:19.119
never fully ended. Even after Carroll's death, they occasionally rekindled

687
00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:22.960
their affair. Their business separation was scheduled to be finalized

688
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:25.960
in July two thousand eight, but that too would be

689
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:29.719
delayed by Carroll's death. As if juggling a wife and

690
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:33.039
a long time mistress weren't enough, Steve was also actively

691
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:37.480
using online dating services. He signed up for Great Expectations

692
00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:42.119
and Upscale matchmaking service, as well as adult FriendFinder dot Com,

693
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:44.679
which was more geared toward casual hookups.

694
00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:47.559
Will you know an awful lot about these dating websites?

695
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:49.360
It's making me a little uncomfortable, sir.

696
00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:52.800
I am just a good researcher. He was casting a

697
00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:56.679
wide net and leading multiple lives. One woman he dated

698
00:36:56.800 --> 00:36:59.480
off and on for about two years was a novelist.

699
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:02.559
During their time together, Steve claimed that he was working

700
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:04.719
on a book of his own. He said it was

701
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:07.159
about a hit man, a man who hadn't set out

702
00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:09.280
to be a killer, but who discovered that he was

703
00:37:09.400 --> 00:37:13.960
exceptionally good at making people's deaths look like accidents. She

704
00:37:14.159 --> 00:37:16.800
encouraged him to pursue the idea and even offered to

705
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:20.039
give feedback, but Steve never sent her a single page,

706
00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:24.119
not even an outline. After Carrol's death, investigators searched his

707
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:28.480
computers and found no trace of this supposed manuscript. Whether

708
00:37:28.519 --> 00:37:31.960
it was a real writing project, a disturbing fantasy, or

709
00:37:32.119 --> 00:37:35.920
laying the groundwork for an eventual cover story, no one knows.

710
00:37:36.679 --> 00:37:39.559
In November two thousand and seven, Steve started seeing yet

711
00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:44.039
another woman, Renee Girard. Renee was a massage therapist, five

712
00:37:44.119 --> 00:37:46.920
years younger than Steve, and yes, he was still seeing

713
00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:49.719
Barb at that point and still married to Carol and

714
00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:53.039
likely involved with others as well, But Renee would prove

715
00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:55.679
to be more than just another fling. Over the next

716
00:37:55.679 --> 00:37:58.920
few years, their relationship would become very important to Steve.

717
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:03.480
As her relationship with Steve continued to deteriorate, Carol began

718
00:38:03.519 --> 00:38:07.960
to rediscover herself through art. She had always dabbled sketching, painting,

719
00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:12.199
making prints, but had never fully embraced the identity of artists.

720
00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:15.159
That began to change in the early two thousands, after

721
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:18.559
she stepped away from teaching at Prescott College. With more

722
00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:22.280
time and emotional energy, she threw herself into her creative work.

723
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:25.840
By two thousand and four, as she approached her fiftieth birthday,

724
00:38:26.119 --> 00:38:29.239
Carol had created enough pieces to mount a gallery show

725
00:38:29.239 --> 00:38:33.679
in Prescott, despite their rocky separation. Steve came to the opening,

726
00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:37.840
praised her work enthusiastically, and even bought several pieces to

727
00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:41.760
show his support. Carol was thrilled. Not long after, she

728
00:38:41.800 --> 00:38:44.679
started working part time at a local gallery called Van

729
00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:46.880
goz Eer. It's a great name for a gallery.

730
00:38:47.239 --> 00:38:47.599
Yeah.

731
00:38:47.719 --> 00:38:50.599
She sold other artists' work and also displayed her own.

732
00:38:51.079 --> 00:38:53.760
She was great with customers and even better at connecting

733
00:38:53.800 --> 00:38:57.400
people with pieces that moved them. But Steve couldn't stay away.

734
00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:01.119
He'd often show up unannounced, and their own arguments spilled

735
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:04.440
into the gallery. The tension became too much. In two

736
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:08.119
thousand and seven, with genuine regret, the gallery owners let

737
00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:11.519
Carol go. Her personal life, they said had become too

738
00:39:11.559 --> 00:39:15.519
much of a distraction. Oh still, Carol didn't stop creating.

739
00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:19.199
In fact, her work deepened. Friends noticed that as her

740
00:39:19.239 --> 00:39:22.880
life with Steve grew more painful, her art reflected that shift.

741
00:39:23.159 --> 00:39:28.440
Her color palette darkened, her subjects grew more introspective. Moody shadowed.

742
00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:32.000
We'll post some pictures of Carol's art on our social

743
00:39:32.039 --> 00:39:34.719
media We'll be back after a break.

744
00:39:41.719 --> 00:39:44.719
The strain wasn't just showing up on canvas. Carol was

745
00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:47.880
battling depression. She leaned on her friends, calling often for

746
00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:51.719
emotional support. At one point, her longtime friend Debbie, worried

747
00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:55.800
Carol might be suicidal. When she asked her directly, Carol

748
00:39:55.840 --> 00:39:59.280
said no, absolutely not, She would never do that because

749
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:00.000
of her girls.

750
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:00.719
It was a.

751
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:03.800
Heartbreaking process for a woman who had believed so deeply

752
00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:07.880
in her marriage, so thoroughly convinced that Steve was her soulmate,

753
00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:11.440
the man she was destined to help heal. Letting go

754
00:40:11.559 --> 00:40:14.280
wasn't just about ending a relationship and met letting go

755
00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:17.320
of a belief that had to find her adult life.

756
00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:21.039
The emotional toll took a physical one too. Carol lost

757
00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:24.480
a significant amount of weight and was diagnosed with Graves disease,

758
00:40:24.760 --> 00:40:28.559
an autoimmune disorder that's often triggered or worsened by stress.

759
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:32.880
As she slowly started reclaiming her independence, her friends encouraged

760
00:40:32.920 --> 00:40:36.800
her to start dating again. Prescott wasn't exactly the best

761
00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:40.119
place for that. The median age there is over sixty,

762
00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:43.920
so Carol gave online dating a try. About a year

763
00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:46.519
before her death, she began seeing a man who lived

764
00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:50.559
in Malibu, but that relationship didn't last long. Then, in

765
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:53.920
early two thousand and eight, she met David's soul no.

766
00:40:53.960 --> 00:40:56.039
Relation to the Starsky and Hunch actor.

767
00:40:56.079 --> 00:40:57.840
In case you were wondering, Thank you so much for

768
00:40:57.880 --> 00:41:01.480
making that clarification. David had a home in Arizona, about

769
00:41:01.480 --> 00:41:04.239
thirty five miles from Carrol's, but he spent most of

770
00:41:04.280 --> 00:41:07.159
his time on the coast of Maine restoring a sailboat

771
00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:10.000
for a long voyage. They saw each other several times

772
00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:12.800
while he was in Arizona and hit it off quickly.

773
00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:15.960
When he returned to Maine in May, they kept in

774
00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:21.280
close contact, calling and emailing frequently. Carol was excited for

775
00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:23.840
the first time in a long time. It felt like

776
00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:27.199
the possibility of a new chapter. I would think getting

777
00:41:27.320 --> 00:41:30.440
rid of the dead weight that was her husband would

778
00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:31.480
feel pretty good.

779
00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:33.320
I would think so too, But they, you know, they

780
00:41:33.320 --> 00:41:36.639
were still intertwined because of the daughters and financial stuff.

781
00:41:36.639 --> 00:41:39.079
As we'll see, it was hard to make a clean

782
00:41:39.159 --> 00:41:39.519
break out.

783
00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:41.719
Yeah, I can understand that she was planning a trip

784
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:44.000
to Maine to visit David and see his boat. Her

785
00:41:44.039 --> 00:41:47.039
flight was scheduled toward July twelfth, two thousand and eight,

786
00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:50.719
but she never made it. Carol was killed on July second,

787
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:54.000
just ten days before she was finally set to sail

788
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:57.599
into something new. Although Steve had moved out back in

789
00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:00.440
two thousand and three, it would be three more years

790
00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:04.119
before either of them filed for divorce. Steve filed first,

791
00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:07.000
but quickly withdrew his petition. In the end, it was

792
00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:10.079
Carol who had to take the final step. She filed

793
00:42:10.119 --> 00:42:14.119
in two thousand and seven, and things got ugly fast.

794
00:42:14.519 --> 00:42:18.639
Despite Steve's substantial income, his spending was completely out of control.

795
00:42:18.960 --> 00:42:22.400
As his earnings increased, his expenses seemed to grow even faster.

796
00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:25.840
In two thousand and seven, Carol began tracking his financial

797
00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:29.320
activity and was stunned by what she found. In just

798
00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:32.079
a few months, Steve had taken a trip to Saint Martin,

799
00:42:32.400 --> 00:42:35.719
another to Zurich and Italy, and spent three days at

800
00:42:35.719 --> 00:42:39.280
a luxury hotel in New York City with Katie and Charlotte,

801
00:42:39.320 --> 00:42:42.840
taking them to Broadway shows and high end restaurants. He

802
00:42:42.920 --> 00:42:46.159
paid for a massive family reunion in the Adiron Decks

803
00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:50.920
at a seventeen thousand square foot vacation rental with fourteen bedrooms.

804
00:42:51.239 --> 00:42:54.400
He leased a new BMW for Katie, treated his dad

805
00:42:54.440 --> 00:42:57.159
and brothers to a week long goll trip, took the

806
00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:00.719
girls on lavish shopping spreees in Phoenix, and brought himself

807
00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:04.599
plenty of expensive athletic gear along the way. And yet,

808
00:43:04.599 --> 00:43:07.559
despite all of this, Steve kept telling Carol that she

809
00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:10.960
was the one putting him in debt. Then came the

810
00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:15.119
two thousand and seven financial crisis, the most severe economic

811
00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:19.320
downturn since the Great Depression. As a stockbroker, Steve was

812
00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:23.559
hit hard. His income dropped significantly, but his spending habits

813
00:43:23.559 --> 00:43:27.119
didn't change. He just kept going, racking up more and

814
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:31.719
more debt. Meanwhile, Carol was scrambling to stay afloat. She

815
00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:34.239
took a job as a counselor at Pia's Place, a

816
00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:37.840
recovery center for women battling addiction. She also picked up

817
00:43:37.880 --> 00:43:42.119
part time work in the print lab at Yavapai College.

818
00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:43.760
That's right, The.

819
00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:49.320
Divorce negotiations were grueling. Financial stress, emotional manipulation, and constant

820
00:43:49.400 --> 00:43:54.880
uncertainty made everything worse. Steve's behavior became increasingly erratic. He

821
00:43:54.920 --> 00:43:59.239
would send Carol long, rambling emails, some professing his undying

822
00:43:59.320 --> 00:44:04.079
love filled with cruel insults. Carol suspected he was spying

823
00:44:04.119 --> 00:44:08.440
on her, hacking into her email, monitoring her messages to friends,

824
00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:12.159
to her attorney, and to David's soul. No connection to

825
00:44:12.199 --> 00:44:15.599
Starsky and Hutch. There's no concrete evidence to confirm that,

826
00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:18.880
but Carol believed it was happening. She also believes Steve

827
00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:22.000
was entering the house while she was away, letting himself in,

828
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:26.159
stooping around, possibly even tampering with things. So this is

829
00:44:26.199 --> 00:44:28.840
gonna sound stupid, but I've been watching The Valley, which

830
00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:31.960
is a show on Bravo, and this sounds really similar

831
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:34.880
to something that's happening with a couple that's divorcing over

832
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:38.559
that show. And I know, I'm very fortunate because obviously

833
00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:42.599
we have a good relationship and I've never been divorced before.

834
00:44:42.920 --> 00:44:48.239
But it just has shown me how horrible and just

835
00:44:48.360 --> 00:44:52.760
volatile that these relationships become, and how men when woman

836
00:44:52.840 --> 00:44:54.800
is trying to start over, to start the new light,

837
00:44:54.880 --> 00:44:59.840
that's when you know, men, the abuser just holds on tighter. Yeah,

838
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:01.519
it won't let her go, and.

839
00:45:01.480 --> 00:45:04.199
It's just, yeah, it seems like a really common scenario.

840
00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:05.960
It's really scary yeah, it is.

841
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:08.719
It's almost like they become like obsessive and they become

842
00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:10.880
very toxic and volatile.

843
00:45:11.159 --> 00:45:14.519
And it's that combination of you know, love bombing and

844
00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:17.280
the abuse, like it just vacillates between the two of

845
00:45:17.320 --> 00:45:18.079
them over and over.

846
00:45:18.199 --> 00:45:18.320
Right.

847
00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:22.159
The divorce also took a toll on the girls, especially Charlotte,

848
00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:24.440
who was only sixteen at the time of Carol's death.

849
00:45:24.800 --> 00:45:26.840
She had always been closer to her dad and grew

850
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:30.559
increasingly angry at Carol, blaming her for dragging out the

851
00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:34.480
divorce and jeopardizing her financial future. So as a sixteen

852
00:45:34.519 --> 00:45:38.000
year old, obviously the dad is manipulating the girls with

853
00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:39.679
the gifts and the trips and all that stuff.

854
00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:42.159
Yes, Steve was really good at manipulating people.

855
00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:45.800
Charlotte had big dreams of becoming a neurosurgeon and hope

856
00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:48.480
to attend an out of state college, but as the

857
00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:51.039
legal battle war on, she began to fear that her

858
00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:55.440
mother's refusal to accept Steve's settlement offers might ruin those plans.

859
00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:58.840
At one point, Charlotte wrote to Carroll in an email quote,

860
00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:01.800
now my future and the quality of my education and

861
00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:05.199
degree is in jeopardy. It's hard to realize that my mom,

862
00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:08.440
someone who I unconditionally have loved all my life, may

863
00:46:08.519 --> 00:46:10.039
damage the rest of my life.

864
00:46:10.280 --> 00:46:12.119
It's really sad to read that, isn't it.

865
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:12.880
Retrospect?

866
00:46:12.920 --> 00:46:13.119
Yeah.

867
00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:16.960
Carol, in turn, felt that Steve was deliberately driving a

868
00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:20.920
wedge between her and her youngest daughter. Eventually, Charlotte moved

869
00:46:20.920 --> 00:46:23.360
into Steve's condo to get away from the conflict and

870
00:46:23.400 --> 00:46:26.800
refuse to spend time with Carol until the divorce was finalized.

871
00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:29.519
When the settlement finally came through in May two thousand

872
00:46:29.519 --> 00:46:33.400
and eight, nobody was happy. Carol received nearly two hundred

873
00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:36.239
thousand dollars from one of Steve's four oh one K accounts,

874
00:46:36.639 --> 00:46:39.239
but she would be responsible for the taxes and early

875
00:46:39.280 --> 00:46:43.199
withdrawal penalties. She also inherited a portion of Steve's debt,

876
00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:47.559
reportedly close to half a million dollars. It's crazy.

877
00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:50.800
Oh yeah, this whole divorced settlement just kind of boggles

878
00:46:50.840 --> 00:46:51.280
my mind.

879
00:46:51.639 --> 00:46:54.559
She got the family home on Bridle Path, but Steve

880
00:46:54.599 --> 00:46:57.480
had taken out multiple mortgages on it and the property

881
00:46:57.599 --> 00:47:01.800
was underwater, worth less than what she owed. Steve was

882
00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:05.159
ordered to pay alimony, but because Charlotte now lived with him,

883
00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:09.639
Carol was required to pay him child support. Carol was

884
00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:13.559
growing increasingly anxious. How was she going to make ends meet.

885
00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:16.480
The divorce was finalized in May two thousand and eight,

886
00:47:16.599 --> 00:47:19.920
but the fighting never really stopped up until the day

887
00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:24.559
Carol died on July second. There were long, relentless threads

888
00:47:24.599 --> 00:47:27.800
of emails between the two, arguing about money, the girls,

889
00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:30.079
the house, and everything in between.

890
00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:33.440
In January two thousand and eight, while Carol was still

891
00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:35.800
in the thick of her divorce battle with Steve, she

892
00:47:35.960 --> 00:47:39.320
reconnected with an old friend, Jim Nap. Carol had known

893
00:47:39.400 --> 00:47:42.039
Jim for years. Their kids had gone to school together,

894
00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:44.760
and he had always been a familiar face around town.

895
00:47:45.320 --> 00:47:47.559
At the time, Jim had just gone through a divorce

896
00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:50.360
and a custody fight of his own. On top of that,

897
00:47:50.440 --> 00:47:53.480
he told Carol he had been diagnosed with cancer. He

898
00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:56.840
needed a place to stay, and Carol, who was struggling financially,

899
00:47:57.039 --> 00:48:00.360
needed help with expenses, so she invited Jim to move

900
00:48:00.360 --> 00:48:03.119
into the guest house on her property. It seemed like

901
00:48:03.159 --> 00:48:06.400
a good arrangement. Carol liked having a man around, especially

902
00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:09.719
given how secluded her home was. The two quickly became

903
00:48:09.800 --> 00:48:14.079
confidants leaning on each other through their respective divorces. Steve

904
00:48:14.119 --> 00:48:16.480
would often stop by the main house in the evenings

905
00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:19.719
for a glass of wine and conversation. But Jim Napp

906
00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:22.119
wasn't your typical house guest. He was a bit of

907
00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:25.559
an odd duck, a free spirited surfer dude from Hawaii,

908
00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:29.519
full of lofty business ideas, uncertain medical issues, and a

909
00:48:29.639 --> 00:48:33.280
questionable track record with women. Let's start with his business plan.

910
00:48:33.639 --> 00:48:36.559
Steve had been exploring the idea of buying a Maui

911
00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:40.559
Wawie Hawaiian coffee and smoothie franchise, the one located right

912
00:48:40.599 --> 00:48:43.800
in Prescott. He had even negotiated a price with the

913
00:48:43.840 --> 00:48:46.880
current owner. But Jim had a mountain of debt, mostly

914
00:48:46.920 --> 00:48:49.880
for medical bills, and seemed to be hoping that Carol

915
00:48:49.880 --> 00:48:52.840
would help fund the purchase. At one point, he even

916
00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:55.840
mentioned to the shop owner that Carol's divorce settlement would

917
00:48:55.840 --> 00:48:59.000
make the deal possible, though it's unclear whether Carol ever

918
00:48:59.119 --> 00:49:02.519
actually agreed to death help. Given her own financial strain,

919
00:49:02.760 --> 00:49:06.159
it's unlikely. Ultimately Jim backed out of the deal in

920
00:49:06.199 --> 00:49:09.400
early two thousand and eight. Then there were the health concerns.

921
00:49:09.800 --> 00:49:12.840
Jim had at some point been diagnosed with skin cancer,

922
00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:16.039
but whether it was a serious, ongoing illness or a

923
00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:19.960
single incident involving the removal of a spot, that's not clear.

924
00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:22.559
What is clear is that Jim often told people he

925
00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:26.719
was dying, while others suspected he was exaggerating. He also

926
00:49:26.800 --> 00:49:32.480
dealt with ulcers, digestive problems, anxiety, depression, and chronic sleep issues.

927
00:49:32.840 --> 00:49:35.480
He had prescriptions for all of it, and was likely

928
00:49:35.480 --> 00:49:39.599
addicted to painkillers or at the very least over medicating himself.

929
00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:43.239
After separating from his wife, Jim began dating a woman

930
00:49:43.320 --> 00:49:46.519
he met online who lived in Montana. Based on his

931
00:49:46.639 --> 00:49:50.519
profile and chats, she expected a fit, outdoorsy guy, but

932
00:49:50.599 --> 00:49:55.320
when they met in person, she was surprised. Jim appeared pale, sluggish,

933
00:49:55.400 --> 00:49:58.360
and out of shape. During their visits, she said he

934
00:49:58.400 --> 00:50:00.960
often seemed out of it, likely in her view, due

935
00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:04.000
to the medications. The second time they met in person,

936
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:06.679
he told her he wanted to marry her. She liked him,

937
00:50:06.679 --> 00:50:09.400
but she felt like it was far too soon. Their

938
00:50:09.440 --> 00:50:13.519
next meeting was a trip to Hawaii. Again, Jim seemed detached.

939
00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:16.800
At times, he would disappear for hours with no explanation.

940
00:50:17.440 --> 00:50:20.719
She grew increasingly concerned about his drug use. When she

941
00:50:20.840 --> 00:50:24.000
returned to Montana, she called Jim's brother and learned that

942
00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:26.920
Jim had been to rehab in the past. She broke

943
00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:29.920
things off, and Jim did not take it well. He

944
00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:33.280
was furious that she had contacted his family and accused

945
00:50:33.320 --> 00:50:36.119
her of abandoning him when he needed her most. The

946
00:50:36.159 --> 00:50:40.199
emails that followed were angry, sometimes veiled with threats. She

947
00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:44.039
stopped responding, but Jim kept writing and even reached out

948
00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:47.079
to her family asking for money to help with medical bills,

949
00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:50.800
saying that he was dying. Carol, by all accounts, never

950
00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:52.480
saw this side of Jim, so.

951
00:50:52.519 --> 00:50:54.960
That relationship was before he'd moved in with Carol.

952
00:50:55.280 --> 00:50:58.079
I think it was yes, okay. To Carol. Jim was

953
00:50:58.079 --> 00:51:02.159
a close friend, someone she trusted, but others, including her daughters,

954
00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:05.840
saw something different. Katie later recalled one night when Jim

955
00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:08.599
had had too much to drink, She and Carol helped

956
00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:11.639
him to bed, and as they did, he playfully tugged

957
00:51:11.639 --> 00:51:14.840
at Carol's clothes. It didn't escalate, and no one thought

958
00:51:14.920 --> 00:51:17.599
much of it at the time. Carol never told anyone

959
00:51:17.639 --> 00:51:20.480
that Jim had made advances, but some people close to

960
00:51:20.519 --> 00:51:23.000
her believed that Jim might have been in love with her,

961
00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:27.000
maybe even obsessed. In late June two thousand and eight,

962
00:51:27.119 --> 00:51:30.880
just weeks after their divorce was finalized, Carol, Steve, Katie,

963
00:51:30.920 --> 00:51:33.639
and Charlotte all came together for dinner. It was a

964
00:51:33.679 --> 00:51:37.239
farewell gathering. Katie was leaving for a study abroad program,

965
00:51:37.360 --> 00:51:40.280
first to Europe, then on to South Africa. She had

966
00:51:40.400 --> 00:51:44.440
enrolled in courses on political economics and apartheid history at

967
00:51:44.440 --> 00:51:47.880
the University of Cape Town, and she planned to volunteer

968
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:52.239
at a child soldier rehabilitation center in Uganda. Everyone in

969
00:51:52.280 --> 00:51:56.480
the family was proud of her, excited and supportive. After dinner,

970
00:51:56.519 --> 00:51:58.880
they all went together to the Phoenix airport to see

971
00:51:58.960 --> 00:52:01.679
Katie off, and for a moment, just a moment, it

972
00:52:01.719 --> 00:52:05.960
felt like a family again. Everyone was kind, polite. Carol, Steve,

973
00:52:06.039 --> 00:52:09.599
and Charlotte stood together, arms wrapped around one another, waving

974
00:52:09.639 --> 00:52:13.840
as Katie disappeared through airport security. Later, Carol told her

975
00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:15.920
friend Catherine that it was the first time in a

976
00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:20.719
long while that she'd felt actually comfortable around Steve, like maybe,

977
00:52:20.880 --> 00:52:23.880
just maybe things had turned a corner. But then Steve

978
00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:26.599
ruined it. He asked her to meet for coffee and

979
00:52:26.679 --> 00:52:29.760
pleaded with her to take him back. Carol was stunned.

980
00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:33.840
After everything, after all the therapy, the betrayals, the years

981
00:52:33.840 --> 00:52:36.599
of trying to let him go, and finally choosing herself.

982
00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:40.400
She didn't say yes, She didn't entertain the idea, but

983
00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:44.840
she walked away feeling confused and shaken. That brings us

984
00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:48.519
to Wednesday, July second, two thousand and eight. It started

985
00:52:48.599 --> 00:52:51.719
as a completely normal day. Carol went to work at

986
00:52:51.760 --> 00:52:55.079
Pia's place, the Recovery Center where she worked as a counselor.

987
00:52:55.679 --> 00:52:58.679
Around two thirty in the afternoon, she and Steve exchanged

988
00:52:58.719 --> 00:53:02.559
a few text messages about Katie's BMW. Katie had left

989
00:53:02.599 --> 00:53:05.639
the car in Carol's garage before leaving for South Africa,

990
00:53:06.039 --> 00:53:08.480
and Steve said he needed to pick it up. He

991
00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:10.599
asked when he could come by to get the keys.

992
00:53:10.960 --> 00:53:14.039
Carol told him he could stop by that evening. She

993
00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:17.199
left work around four thirty, called her friend Katherine on

994
00:53:17.239 --> 00:53:19.960
the way home, and ran a couple of errands. She

995
00:53:20.039 --> 00:53:22.519
picked up some special food for her two dogs at

996
00:53:22.519 --> 00:53:26.280
the animal hospital. Her Boston Terrier Ike was still recovering

997
00:53:26.320 --> 00:53:30.039
from a wild bore attack, and her bechan freeze Daisy

998
00:53:30.320 --> 00:53:33.519
had been vomiting a wild boar attack. That's something we

999
00:53:33.519 --> 00:53:34.880
don't need to worry about here.

1000
00:53:35.360 --> 00:53:36.800
Well, we have coyotes though.

1001
00:53:36.719 --> 00:53:40.000
Yeah, that's true. Next, Carol stopped at Safeway to grab

1002
00:53:40.039 --> 00:53:42.840
a few groceries. When she got home, she checked her

1003
00:53:42.840 --> 00:53:46.000
email and had a quick call with her accountant about

1004
00:53:46.079 --> 00:53:49.800
lingering details from the divorce. Then, at six thirty pm,

1005
00:53:49.920 --> 00:53:52.840
she sent Steve an email challenging a claim that he

1006
00:53:52.880 --> 00:53:58.440
had made that Carol supposedly owed him eighty three hundred dollars. Steve, meanwhile,

1007
00:53:58.559 --> 00:54:02.119
was six thousand dollars overdue in alimony payments. He had

1008
00:54:02.199 --> 00:54:04.800
essentially said, once you pay me what you owe, then

1009
00:54:04.840 --> 00:54:09.559
I'll pay what I owe you. Carol replied, clearly frustrated. Quote,

1010
00:54:09.719 --> 00:54:14.280
your assertion and information here is inaccurate and incorrect. Even

1011
00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:17.440
though the divorce had been finalized two months earlier, their

1012
00:54:17.480 --> 00:54:21.559
financial disputes were not over. After sending the email, Carol

1013
00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:24.199
changed into her running clothes and headed out for her

1014
00:54:24.280 --> 00:54:27.480
usual three mile run on the trails behind her house.

1015
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:30.760
Early on, she ran into two neighbors on horseback and

1016
00:54:30.800 --> 00:54:34.719
stopped to chat briefly before continuing on her route. When

1017
00:54:34.760 --> 00:54:37.920
she returned, she noticed that Steve still hadn't responded to

1018
00:54:37.960 --> 00:54:41.360
her text about the BMW. At seven oh six pm,

1019
00:54:41.440 --> 00:54:44.599
she messaged him again, quote, you never replied to let

1020
00:54:44.599 --> 00:54:46.800
me know if you were coming to get it. It

1021
00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:49.920
was unusual, Steve almost always had his phone with him

1022
00:54:49.960 --> 00:54:54.039
and typically responded quickly. At seven to twelve pm, she

1023
00:54:54.159 --> 00:54:57.199
texted Charlotte to ask about her day and her new job.

1024
00:54:57.599 --> 00:55:01.159
Their relationship had been improving since the devorce was finalized,

1025
00:55:01.480 --> 00:55:05.159
and Carol was making an effort to reconnect, even through small,

1026
00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:09.440
everyday messages. They exchanged a few texts, including one about

1027
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:12.119
a storm that had come through the day before. Their

1028
00:55:12.159 --> 00:55:16.119
conversation ended with three simple but powerful words, I love you.

1029
00:55:16.639 --> 00:55:19.760
At seven to twenty five, Carol texted Steve again, this

1030
00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:23.880
time about shipping details for Katie's belongings. They had planned

1031
00:55:23.920 --> 00:55:27.960
to ship some items overseas to lighten her travel load. Again,

1032
00:55:28.199 --> 00:55:31.719
she got no response. At seven point thirty six, Carol

1033
00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:35.239
used her cordless landline to call her mother, Ruth in Nashville.

1034
00:55:35.719 --> 00:55:38.880
They spoke almost every night. Carol worried about her mom

1035
00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:42.360
living alone after her father's death, and Ruth, in turn

1036
00:55:42.559 --> 00:55:45.960
worried about her daughter, especially with Carol. Living by herself

1037
00:55:46.039 --> 00:55:49.039
in such a remote area, Carol had a habit of

1038
00:55:49.079 --> 00:55:52.239
not locking her doors, something that always made Ruth nervous.

1039
00:55:52.760 --> 00:55:56.079
They spoke for about twenty five minutes. Carol tried not

1040
00:55:56.159 --> 00:55:58.920
to burden her mom too much with her ongoing stress,

1041
00:55:59.039 --> 00:56:02.559
but on that call she vented. She mentioned Steve's missed

1042
00:56:02.599 --> 00:56:06.679
alimony payments, her concerns about money, and her mounting anxiety

1043
00:56:06.800 --> 00:56:10.039
about how she was going to stay afloat. Ruth later

1044
00:56:10.079 --> 00:56:13.599
said that Carol sounded genuinely worried. Then, at seven point

1045
00:56:13.559 --> 00:56:16.239
fifty nine PM, as they were wrapping up the call,

1046
00:56:16.599 --> 00:56:21.119
Ruth heard her daughter exclaim oh no, and then silence.

1047
00:56:21.440 --> 00:56:26.840
No click, no crashing sound, no dial tone, just silence. Ruth, alarmed,

1048
00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:30.159
asked Carol, are you okay? What's the matter? But there

1049
00:56:30.199 --> 00:56:33.719
was no reply. Eventually the line went dead. In the

1050
00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:37.000
initial chaos, Ruth described the oh no to the nine

1051
00:56:37.039 --> 00:56:40.000
to one one dispatcher as a scream, but later she

1052
00:56:40.039 --> 00:56:43.360
clarified it wasn't a scream. It was more a gasp,

1053
00:56:43.599 --> 00:56:47.599
a reaction of sudden, fearful recognition. She said it sounded

1054
00:56:47.639 --> 00:56:51.360
like oh no. Not again. After the call went dead,

1055
00:56:51.960 --> 00:56:55.880
Ruth Kennedy tried calling Carol back several times. No answer,

1056
00:56:56.159 --> 00:57:00.280
not even the answering machine. Growing increasingly panicked, she called

1057
00:57:00.320 --> 00:57:03.960
Steve's condo. Charlotte and her boyfriend Jake were there playing

1058
00:57:04.079 --> 00:57:07.320
video games. Charlotte glanced at the caller ID, but let

1059
00:57:07.360 --> 00:57:10.360
it go to voicemail. Ruth left a message for Steve,

1060
00:57:10.440 --> 00:57:13.039
explaining what had happened and begging him to go check

1061
00:57:13.039 --> 00:57:17.440
on Carol. Next, she called Steve's cell phone. Still no answer.

1062
00:57:17.800 --> 00:57:21.199
Another message. With no one else to turn to, Ruth

1063
00:57:21.239 --> 00:57:24.880
called the Prescott Police Department. It was eight fourteen PM,

1064
00:57:25.159 --> 00:57:27.760
just fifteen minutes after the call with her daughter had

1065
00:57:27.840 --> 00:57:29.400
ended so abruptly.

1066
00:57:31.079 --> 00:57:33.679
Sheriff Upspring hus going to help you. Well, yes, my

1067
00:57:33.800 --> 00:57:37.480
name is Ruth Kennedy and I'm calling from Nashville, Tennessee.

1068
00:57:37.960 --> 00:57:40.159
I was all on the phone with my daughter and

1069
00:57:40.239 --> 00:57:43.719
she screamed and said, oh no, and the phone's down, dad,

1070
00:57:44.719 --> 00:57:46.920
And is there anything you can do? Just can you

1071
00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:49.480
go check. I'm just at my way sands.

1072
00:57:49.800 --> 00:57:51.719
Now did you call her or did she call you?

1073
00:57:51.800 --> 00:57:55.079
And this occurred She called me to night, and which

1074
00:57:55.159 --> 00:57:57.800
she called me every night because I'm eighty three and

1075
00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:02.239
she worries about me, and so we were.

1076
00:58:01.880 --> 00:58:04.079
Just having our con the question and then all of

1077
00:58:04.119 --> 00:58:07.280
a sudden she just sprained and said, oh no. And

1078
00:58:07.320 --> 00:58:10.119
then I haven't been able to get her to answer

1079
00:58:10.199 --> 00:58:14.079
the phone back. So, you know, Sprite, something bad to.

1080
00:58:13.920 --> 00:58:15.519
Happened, okay, Ruth?

1081
00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:20.239
And who does your daughter live with? She's recently devolised,

1082
00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:21.280
she's alone.

1083
00:58:22.119 --> 00:58:24.400
Ruth sounds just like such a sweet lady, such a

1084
00:58:24.440 --> 00:58:27.360
cutie pie. Police said they would send someone out for

1085
00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:31.039
a welfare check and call her back. Deputy Matthew Tainter

1086
00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:33.679
was out on patrol when he got the call. He

1087
00:58:33.760 --> 00:58:36.519
made a traffic stop first, then headed toward the house

1088
00:58:36.559 --> 00:58:39.960
on Bridle Path. He arrived at eight fifty two pm,

1089
00:58:40.199 --> 00:58:42.719
nearly an hour after Ruth had heard her daughter say

1090
00:58:42.760 --> 00:58:46.440
oh no, followed by silence. The house was dark, no

1091
00:58:46.599 --> 00:58:50.039
lights on, no response At the front door. Tainter shined

1092
00:58:50.079 --> 00:58:53.800
his flashlight through the windows. Everything looked quiet. He walked

1093
00:58:53.800 --> 00:58:56.679
around to the back and spotted a separate structure that

1094
00:58:56.760 --> 00:59:00.760
he assumed was a garage. The door was unlocked, gun drawn.

1095
00:59:00.800 --> 00:59:04.000
He stepped inside but quickly realized it wasn't a garage.

1096
00:59:04.119 --> 00:59:07.119
It was someone's home, the guest house. No one was

1097
00:59:07.159 --> 00:59:10.480
inside back at the main house, he tried the patio doors.

1098
00:59:10.719 --> 00:59:13.679
They were unlocked, but Tainter didn't want to enter alone,

1099
00:59:14.159 --> 00:59:18.000
unsure if anyone was inside, so he continued circling the house,

1100
00:59:18.159 --> 00:59:21.199
shining his flashlight through each window, and that's when he

1101
00:59:21.280 --> 00:59:24.280
saw her. In the last room he checked, he found Carol.

1102
00:59:24.800 --> 00:59:26.920
She was lying face down on the floor of the

1103
00:59:26.960 --> 00:59:30.559
back bedroom, a pool of blood beneath her head. Not

1104
00:59:30.719 --> 00:59:33.840
knowing if the killer might still be inside, Tainter backed

1105
00:59:33.840 --> 00:59:36.559
away and returned to his patrol car to call for

1106
00:59:36.639 --> 00:59:41.000
back up. At nine ten pm, as additional officers arrived,

1107
00:59:41.199 --> 00:59:43.960
a white Ford ranger pulled up on the scene. The

1108
00:59:44.039 --> 00:59:47.440
driver introduced himself as Jim Knapp. He explained that he

1109
00:59:47.480 --> 00:59:49.800
lived in the guest house and asked what was going on.

1110
00:59:50.480 --> 00:59:54.239
Rather than telling him what they'd found, officers started asking questions.

1111
00:59:54.800 --> 00:59:57.360
Had Carol been home when he left that day? No,

1112
00:59:57.599 --> 01:00:00.559
he said she had already gone to work. What was

1113
01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:04.840
his relationship to her best friends? He said? Jim said

1114
01:00:04.960 --> 01:00:06.920
that he had been at the house until about one

1115
01:00:07.039 --> 01:00:09.800
or two PM, then went to his ex wife's house.

1116
01:00:10.320 --> 01:00:12.960
She took their older son to hockey practice while Jim

1117
01:00:13.000 --> 01:00:16.559
watched a movie with their younger son, Alex, his ex wife,

1118
01:00:16.559 --> 01:00:19.800
returned home around eight thirty or eight forty five, and

1119
01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:22.440
that's when he headed home. He stopped it safeway on

1120
01:00:22.480 --> 01:00:25.320
the way back. The last time he saw Carrol, he said,

1121
01:00:25.400 --> 01:00:27.679
was the night before. She had come out to the

1122
01:00:27.719 --> 01:00:30.000
guest house to say good night around eight or nine

1123
01:00:30.519 --> 01:00:32.320
that morning. She had left him a note on his

1124
01:00:32.400 --> 01:00:36.000
truck window, quote thinking of you all day. She often

1125
01:00:36.079 --> 01:00:40.000
left small supportive messages like that. Still unaware of what

1126
01:00:40.079 --> 01:00:44.280
had happened, Jim volunteered an opinion. Carol's ex husband, Steve,

1127
01:00:44.320 --> 01:00:48.039
he said, was a sneaky, manipulative man, and if something

1128
01:00:48.079 --> 01:00:50.400
had happened to Carol, he's the one they should be

1129
01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:54.360
looking at. Police looked Jim over and inspected his truck.

1130
01:00:54.719 --> 01:00:58.039
No injuries or visible blood, no signs of a struggle.

1131
01:00:58.679 --> 01:01:02.400
Inside the house, officers swept through each room, no one

1132
01:01:02.400 --> 01:01:05.320
else was there. Then they turned their attention to the

1133
01:01:05.360 --> 01:01:08.880
crime scene. Carroll's body was found in the back bedroom.

1134
01:01:09.119 --> 01:01:12.679
Blood was spattered throughout the room, mostly around her head

1135
01:01:12.719 --> 01:01:15.719
and on the leg of a nearby desk. A bookcase

1136
01:01:15.760 --> 01:01:18.800
had toppled over and lay next to her body. A

1137
01:01:18.880 --> 01:01:21.360
cordless phone was on the floor. A few feet away,

1138
01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:25.039
near the doorway, there was a ladder. At first glance,

1139
01:01:25.119 --> 01:01:27.760
it might have looked like an accident, had Carol fallen

1140
01:01:27.760 --> 01:01:29.760
off the ladder and hit her head on the desk.

1141
01:01:30.239 --> 01:01:32.920
But something didn't add up. The ladder was facing the

1142
01:01:32.920 --> 01:01:36.119
wrong way, its rungs were on the opposite side from

1143
01:01:36.199 --> 01:01:39.840
where Carol lay, The blood spatter didn't align with the fall,

1144
01:01:40.280 --> 01:01:43.199
and the ladder, along with the bookcase, had clearly been

1145
01:01:43.239 --> 01:01:46.480
moved after the fact. And the injury to Carol's head

1146
01:01:47.000 --> 01:01:49.039
it was far too severe to have come from a

1147
01:01:49.079 --> 01:01:52.840
simple fall. To investigators, it was obvious this was a

1148
01:01:52.880 --> 01:01:56.840
staged scene, a deliberate attempt to make Carroll's violent death

1149
01:01:57.119 --> 01:02:00.880
look like an accident, and that alone revealed something important.

1150
01:02:01.199 --> 01:02:04.480
Whoever killed Carol didn't just want her dad. They wanted

1151
01:02:04.519 --> 01:02:07.440
her death to look like an accident. Then came another

1152
01:02:07.480 --> 01:02:12.239
intriguing detail. In the laundry room, officers noticed something strange.

1153
01:02:12.400 --> 01:02:15.079
Of the four light bulbs in the ceiling fixture, one

1154
01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:18.039
was missing and the other three had been partially unscrewed.

1155
01:02:18.519 --> 01:02:21.480
Had someone waited there, cloaked in darkness, for Carol to

1156
01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:24.800
return home. I'm afraid that is where we're going to

1157
01:02:24.920 --> 01:02:25.800
end part one.

1158
01:02:26.239 --> 01:02:28.239
So Carol had been home for a while.

1159
01:02:28.599 --> 01:02:30.239
Yeah, she went for a run I think at like

1160
01:02:30.280 --> 01:02:33.719
six thirty, and she got back a little bit after seven,

1161
01:02:34.239 --> 01:02:37.199
and then the phone call with her mom went dead

1162
01:02:37.239 --> 01:02:39.480
at like seven fifty nine, almost eight, So I think

1163
01:02:39.519 --> 01:02:41.880
she had been back for like maybe forty five minutes.

1164
01:02:42.320 --> 01:02:44.760
Did she go running the same time every night?

1165
01:02:45.199 --> 01:02:47.599
I think she usually did. It was kind of a

1166
01:02:47.639 --> 01:02:49.280
habit that she went every day. I'm not sure if

1167
01:02:49.320 --> 01:02:52.559
it was the exact same time, but probably consistent. Yeah.

1168
01:02:52.639 --> 01:02:55.199
So the light bulbs being unscrewed, like you said, it

1169
01:02:55.239 --> 01:02:58.280
seemed like maybe someone was waiting for you. But it's July,

1170
01:02:59.159 --> 01:03:01.199
so it probably wasn't really dark.

1171
01:03:01.239 --> 01:03:01.440
Then.

1172
01:03:01.880 --> 01:03:04.360
I actually had the same question and I looked that up,

1173
01:03:04.440 --> 01:03:08.760
and the sunsets in Prescott, Arizona in July around seven

1174
01:03:08.960 --> 01:03:10.000
forty five or so.

1175
01:03:10.280 --> 01:03:14.519
Okay, interesting because here the sun wouldn't set until yeah,

1176
01:03:14.840 --> 01:03:16.719
nine to thirty, probably.

1177
01:03:16.400 --> 01:03:20.079
Right, Yeah, yeah, probably not so. Yeah, I think it

1178
01:03:20.119 --> 01:03:22.679
may have been getting dark around the time she came

1179
01:03:22.719 --> 01:03:26.760
back from her run. What's your impression of Steve at

1180
01:03:26.760 --> 01:03:27.760
this point in the story.

1181
01:03:28.039 --> 01:03:30.480
I mean it started out, you know, like these cool

1182
01:03:30.639 --> 01:03:35.000
people who you know, really liked education and were out

1183
01:03:35.079 --> 01:03:37.960
dorsy and you know, he worked for Patagonia and he

1184
01:03:37.960 --> 01:03:40.480
seemed like a really cool guy. But yeah, something I

1185
01:03:40.480 --> 01:03:43.679
guess around his fortieth birthday he was feeling a midlife

1186
01:03:43.800 --> 01:03:45.079
crisis is coming upon.

1187
01:03:45.239 --> 01:03:48.280
Yeah, maybe I kind of wonder liked his did his

1188
01:03:48.440 --> 01:03:51.239
change of career? What was the cause and what was

1189
01:03:51.280 --> 01:03:54.000
the effect was? Did he change careers because he had

1190
01:03:54.079 --> 01:03:58.159
changed himself and wanted a different lifestyle or did he

1191
01:03:58.280 --> 01:04:00.519
change careers and then start making a lot of money

1192
01:04:00.559 --> 01:04:02.719
and then did that cause him to change?

1193
01:04:02.719 --> 01:04:06.320
I just don't that's a fair question. For sure. We

1194
01:04:06.360 --> 01:04:09.760
talk about narcisism almost every case, but he does seem

1195
01:04:09.800 --> 01:04:10.639
like a narcissist.

1196
01:04:10.800 --> 01:04:11.599
Yeah, totally.

1197
01:04:11.719 --> 01:04:16.920
Maybe he fought his narcissistic tendencies more then he just

1198
01:04:17.000 --> 01:04:18.360
kind of gave into them.

1199
01:04:18.519 --> 01:04:20.920
Yeah, that could be. I mean, I think maybe he

1200
01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:23.360
was the oldest of nine kids, and his family were

1201
01:04:23.360 --> 01:04:28.000
obviously very intelligent, goal oriented, very goal oriented, So he

1202
01:04:28.079 --> 01:04:31.760
probably really wanted to set an example for his family,

1203
01:04:31.800 --> 01:04:34.119
and then maybe at some point he just decided this

1204
01:04:34.199 --> 01:04:35.159
is who I read.

1205
01:04:35.400 --> 01:04:37.119
Maybe he didn't It wasn't that he wanted to set

1206
01:04:37.159 --> 01:04:40.920
an example, but he felt competitive as the oldest and

1207
01:04:41.679 --> 01:04:44.679
felt like he had something to prove. Being the dean

1208
01:04:44.760 --> 01:04:48.639
of a university is a pretty great job.

1209
01:04:48.440 --> 01:04:49.960
Too, though, Yeah, I would think so.

1210
01:04:50.599 --> 01:04:53.679
I was a little confused about their financial situation and

1211
01:04:53.679 --> 01:04:56.679
the divorce settlement. Like you said, like at one point,

1212
01:04:56.719 --> 01:04:58.880
he was like, you owe me eight thousand dollars, and

1213
01:04:58.920 --> 01:05:01.000
she's like, well, you owe me sick thousand dollars.

1214
01:05:01.039 --> 01:05:04.960
So yeah, it's just so you know, these divorces, especially

1215
01:05:04.960 --> 01:05:07.239
in these situations where there's a lot of money at

1216
01:05:07.280 --> 01:05:09.079
stake where he you know, he was making almost a

1217
01:05:09.119 --> 01:05:11.599
million dollars a year at some point, it just gets

1218
01:05:11.599 --> 01:05:14.360
so complicated and there's so many ins and out.

1219
01:05:14.400 --> 01:05:17.800
So many accounts and investments. Yeah, but then the debts too.

1220
01:05:17.880 --> 01:05:20.760
It seems really unfair. I don't know how you break

1221
01:05:20.840 --> 01:05:23.360
that up. I know, you are getting divorced and you

1222
01:05:23.360 --> 01:05:25.840
have a fair amount of debt, Like who was responsible

1223
01:05:25.880 --> 01:05:29.000
for that debt? It seems unfair when it seems like

1224
01:05:29.039 --> 01:05:31.920
he was the spender in the relationship and that she

1225
01:05:31.960 --> 01:05:33.920
would be settled with any of that debt.

1226
01:05:34.039 --> 01:05:36.760
Yeah, she seems really unfair. I think I think she

1227
01:05:36.920 --> 01:05:39.440
just got tired of trying to like all the negotiating.

1228
01:05:39.480 --> 01:05:42.920
He probably had someone more professional in his in his

1229
01:05:43.079 --> 01:05:45.239
corner in terms of lawyers and things like that, and

1230
01:05:45.280 --> 01:05:48.119
she probably, you know, just gave in at some point

1231
01:05:48.199 --> 01:05:50.800
and it didn't It didn't seem like a fair settlement

1232
01:05:50.880 --> 01:05:53.360
from what I've read. But again, it's so complicated, it's

1233
01:05:53.400 --> 01:05:55.119
hard to say exactly.

1234
01:05:55.000 --> 01:05:56.880
Did Carol have any assets.

1235
01:05:57.280 --> 01:05:59.480
I don't know exactly what I mean. She had the house,

1236
01:05:59.559 --> 01:06:03.000
but again houseouse underwaters, so I think she was in

1237
01:06:03.039 --> 01:06:06.239
real trouble financially. She had like obviously the account that

1238
01:06:06.320 --> 01:06:08.639
she got there was his four oh one K, which

1239
01:06:08.719 --> 01:06:11.199
was like two hundred thousand dollars, and she had to

1240
01:06:11.199 --> 01:06:12.760
pay taxes on that. But at the end of it,

1241
01:06:12.840 --> 01:06:15.119
she probably still had you know, a significant chunk of

1242
01:06:15.159 --> 01:06:18.559
money in that account, but it certainly wasn't enough to

1243
01:06:18.840 --> 01:06:21.840
you know, keep her going. Yeah, what do you think

1244
01:06:21.880 --> 01:06:26.039
of Carol's saying oh no to her mom. I'm kind

1245
01:06:26.039 --> 01:06:28.159
of intrigued by that what that could have meant. And

1246
01:06:28.199 --> 01:06:30.119
the way, like I said, Ruth described it. At first

1247
01:06:30.159 --> 01:06:33.079
she said she screamed, but then later she said no,

1248
01:06:33.199 --> 01:06:36.719
it was more like like, oh no, not again. Yeah,

1249
01:06:37.000 --> 01:06:40.000
I think Ruth was implying that, like oh no, not again,

1250
01:06:40.039 --> 01:06:43.559
because Steve had been coming over and maybe Ruth felt like, oh,

1251
01:06:43.559 --> 01:06:45.800
Steve had come in again, and Carol was like, oh no.

1252
01:06:46.639 --> 01:06:50.519
So it's interesting that there wasn't a name used, right,

1253
01:06:50.599 --> 01:06:52.639
Like she shouldn't say oh no, Steve or be like,

1254
01:06:52.679 --> 01:06:55.599
oh Steve's here again, mom or something like that. It

1255
01:06:55.679 --> 01:06:58.440
was just an oh no, yeah, and there was no

1256
01:06:58.639 --> 01:07:02.400
sound yep. So yeah, it is hard to know what

1257
01:07:02.480 --> 01:07:04.840
that could possibly mean. Yeah, do you think that the

1258
01:07:04.880 --> 01:07:07.599
line was cut or the fact that you didn't hear

1259
01:07:08.239 --> 01:07:10.639
a noise that is weird other than the oh no

1260
01:07:10.719 --> 01:07:13.679
and then it was cut? Could he have just someone

1261
01:07:13.840 --> 01:07:15.000
have unplugged the phone?

1262
01:07:15.079 --> 01:07:17.159
I don't. I mean I never read anything about that

1263
01:07:17.159 --> 01:07:20.119
that the crime scene that the phone was unplugged or anything,

1264
01:07:20.199 --> 01:07:22.320
So I don't really know, but I don't.

1265
01:07:22.400 --> 01:07:24.280
I don't know if you're on remember she was on

1266
01:07:24.320 --> 01:07:27.599
a cordless phone, so the phone could have just no,

1267
01:07:27.719 --> 01:07:30.480
I guess a chordless like I don't really remember how

1268
01:07:30.559 --> 01:07:31.320
cordless phone were.

1269
01:07:31.440 --> 01:07:34.480
We could have hung up the phone at the receiver potentially, but.

1270
01:07:34.639 --> 01:07:37.639
I don't think that's how they were. No, Maybe could

1271
01:07:37.679 --> 01:07:40.760
you have just unplugged the phone and that would yeah,

1272
01:07:40.840 --> 01:07:43.039
that probably would have ended the call. Or just you

1273
01:07:43.039 --> 01:07:45.760
know the little thingy that went into the wall, if

1274
01:07:45.800 --> 01:07:47.639
you could have just taken that out of the wall,

1275
01:07:47.760 --> 01:07:48.800
it would have ended the call.

1276
01:07:49.000 --> 01:07:50.760
Yeah, But then I would think that Ruth would have

1277
01:07:50.800 --> 01:07:52.679
heard like a dial tone or something. It sounds like

1278
01:07:52.719 --> 01:07:56.519
she just heard silence for at least some period of time.

1279
01:07:56.639 --> 01:07:58.239
It's really on that she heard silence.

1280
01:07:58.480 --> 01:08:01.440
Yeah, yeah, it's it's kind of one of the baffling

1281
01:08:01.480 --> 01:08:03.760
things about this. I think we'll be sure to come

1282
01:08:03.760 --> 01:08:06.039
back for part two because I promise you this case

1283
01:08:06.159 --> 01:08:08.360
just gets more and more interesting as we go. And

1284
01:08:08.559 --> 01:08:11.400
remember join us on patreon dot com slash love Mary

1285
01:08:11.480 --> 01:08:15.440
Kill if you'd like to listen to part two right now.

1286
01:08:19.920 --> 01:08:22.479
So we were having a little discussion during our break

1287
01:08:22.560 --> 01:08:24.920
about whether people would want to hear about our vacation

1288
01:08:25.119 --> 01:08:29.439
or not. I know, some sometimes maybe hearing about people's

1289
01:08:29.520 --> 01:08:32.600
vacation isn't the most exciting thing, right, or we can

1290
01:08:32.640 --> 01:08:34.960
probably hit on a couple of highlights, right, Okay, sure,

1291
01:08:35.479 --> 01:08:38.119
Because really our vacation in some ways was kind of

1292
01:08:38.119 --> 01:08:39.960
a journey through our past, because we went to.

1293
01:08:39.920 --> 01:08:41.760
A lot of places your past.

1294
01:08:41.520 --> 01:08:43.560
The special So we went to some places that were

1295
01:08:43.920 --> 01:08:46.239
kind of important to us early in our relationship.

1296
01:08:46.359 --> 01:08:49.359
Yeah, it made me a little emotional at some points

1297
01:08:49.439 --> 01:08:52.199
because you know, it's been a while since I've lived

1298
01:08:52.199 --> 01:08:56.079
in Illinois and you had visited Wisconsin in Chicago. So yeah,

1299
01:08:56.079 --> 01:08:58.199
it was great to revisit some of those places.

1300
01:08:58.239 --> 01:09:00.479
And you've got really emotional when we found the Missus

1301
01:09:00.479 --> 01:09:05.479
Fishers potato chips. You wept with joy. It was really tough.

1302
01:09:05.520 --> 01:09:08.000
Well, it's actually not true. I was very happy to

1303
01:09:08.039 --> 01:09:10.720
see them. We've talked about this at least once before that.

1304
01:09:11.560 --> 01:09:15.159
Missus Fishers is a potato chip factory in Rockford, Illinois.

1305
01:09:15.159 --> 01:09:18.600
It's a kind of a unique chip and growing up

1306
01:09:18.680 --> 01:09:21.920
it was like my family, like my dad and mom,

1307
01:09:22.000 --> 01:09:24.279
like we weren't. I don't think his kids really allowed

1308
01:09:24.279 --> 01:09:26.760
to have them. They hid them from us, you know,

1309
01:09:26.840 --> 01:09:29.279
that kind of thing. So that's probably one of the

1310
01:09:29.359 --> 01:09:32.359
instance why I love them. But the recipe had changed

1311
01:09:32.439 --> 01:09:35.640
when a few years ago they took took out the

1312
01:09:35.640 --> 01:09:38.560
good stuff, so I hadn't had them since they took

1313
01:09:38.600 --> 01:09:41.479
out the transpats, and I wasn't sure, if you know,

1314
01:09:41.520 --> 01:09:43.800
they would hold up. But there's they're still really good.

1315
01:09:43.840 --> 01:09:46.640
I enjoyed them and it was sweet to me. I

1316
01:09:46.680 --> 01:09:49.399
don't know, the whole family seemed to enjoy them. We

1317
01:09:49.479 --> 01:09:51.359
went to one gas station where when we were in

1318
01:09:51.399 --> 01:09:53.880
the Rockford area and they didn't have them. I was like,

1319
01:09:53.920 --> 01:09:56.039
oh no, I didn't want to like make you guys

1320
01:09:56.039 --> 01:09:58.439
go to like sixteen different locations, but I was willing

1321
01:09:58.479 --> 01:10:00.359
to do it if I had to. Sure, But we

1322
01:10:00.439 --> 01:10:06.479
found some at the second store, and they have more

1323
01:10:06.520 --> 01:10:09.039
flavors than they used to. They have barbecue and salt

1324
01:10:09.079 --> 01:10:11.159
and vinegar, and they had these dark chips that were

1325
01:10:11.159 --> 01:10:13.720
really good. Okay, I'm probably talking about this too much

1326
01:10:13.760 --> 01:10:16.039
that I can tell, like my voice is really excited,

1327
01:10:16.079 --> 01:10:18.600
but yeah, it was. It was really fun to go

1328
01:10:18.720 --> 01:10:19.920
back to some of those places.

1329
01:10:20.000 --> 01:10:22.279
Yeah. I think going to the House on the Rock

1330
01:10:22.560 --> 01:10:24.680
was really fun, and I'm glad our kids, I think

1331
01:10:24.680 --> 01:10:26.319
both enjoyed it as well.

1332
01:10:26.479 --> 01:10:27.199
So they did.

1333
01:10:27.319 --> 01:10:29.079
If you're not familiar with the House on the Rock,

1334
01:10:29.119 --> 01:10:30.159
it's in Wisconsin.

1335
01:10:30.479 --> 01:10:33.119
It's a mad man it's a.

1336
01:10:33.119 --> 01:10:37.079
Madman's dream or nightmare or something like. This guy Alex

1337
01:10:37.159 --> 01:10:40.279
Jordan Jordan he built it and he just kept like

1338
01:10:40.600 --> 01:10:43.039
he kept adding to it and he kept buying like

1339
01:10:43.119 --> 01:10:45.479
collections of crazy.

1340
01:10:45.439 --> 01:10:49.039
Stuff, music boxes, like these huge, you know, music boxes.

1341
01:10:49.079 --> 01:10:55.760
I'm not sure he invented there. What's the word, Yeah,

1342
01:10:55.760 --> 01:10:57.720
he built the music boxes or if he has.

1343
01:10:57.640 --> 01:11:00.640
Some saw these like big like they're they're like automatic

1344
01:11:00.760 --> 01:11:02.640
music machines, like where it could be like a whole

1345
01:11:02.760 --> 01:11:04.760
orchestra in a room and you put in a little

1346
01:11:04.760 --> 01:11:07.720
token and it starts playing like a symphony and it's

1347
01:11:07.760 --> 01:11:08.560
just crazy.

1348
01:11:08.800 --> 01:11:12.399
Well, and some of the machines are like Rube Goldberg

1349
01:11:12.720 --> 01:11:15.720
kind of life machines. The thing that I don't know

1350
01:11:15.760 --> 01:11:18.680
if I realized, is that it's really close to Frank

1351
01:11:18.760 --> 01:11:22.039
Lloyd write'es tally Essen, right, And we didn't have time

1352
01:11:22.079 --> 01:11:25.479
to tour Taliessen, but I really would like to see Taliessen.

1353
01:11:25.600 --> 01:11:32.520
But they're two very different, you know people, really intense men.

1354
01:11:32.840 --> 01:11:34.880
I think they I don't think they were friends.

1355
01:11:35.000 --> 01:11:37.680
Yeah, and you have this crazy like carousel that was

1356
01:11:37.800 --> 01:11:39.760
just just wild, Like the whole thing just felt like

1357
01:11:39.880 --> 01:11:42.840
it just like you said, a crazy man's dream.

1358
01:11:43.239 --> 01:11:47.239
We went to Chicago and then we went to We

1359
01:11:47.279 --> 01:11:49.520
spent a lot of time on Wisconsin. We went to

1360
01:11:49.560 --> 01:11:53.640
the Wisconsin Dells, which is an interesting place.

1361
01:11:53.760 --> 01:11:56.960
It's very touristy but also very beautiful.

1362
01:11:56.720 --> 01:11:58.720
Right, and I think that a lot of people go there,

1363
01:11:58.840 --> 01:12:00.920
you know, for the water parks and stuff, and we

1364
01:12:00.920 --> 01:12:03.359
actually didn't go to a water park. We stayed in

1365
01:12:03.520 --> 01:12:06.600
these really cool it's really cool treehouse type thing that

1366
01:12:06.760 --> 01:12:09.279
I thought was really cool. But we took a boat

1367
01:12:09.359 --> 01:12:13.079
ride and we saw which is Which is Gold. We

1368
01:12:13.359 --> 01:12:16.119
took the Upper Dells tour. There's a Lower Dells tour

1369
01:12:16.199 --> 01:12:18.520
and there's like these duck boats that go around, but

1370
01:12:18.560 --> 01:12:21.119
we took the Upper Dells tour because I'd seen pictures

1371
01:12:21.159 --> 01:12:23.520
of Which is Gold. We've never visited there before. It

1372
01:12:23.560 --> 01:12:28.000
was stunning, one of the most amazing natural things I've

1373
01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:30.560
ever seen. Yeah, it was just really really grew me away.

1374
01:12:30.800 --> 01:12:32.640
Just these kind of crazy like rock.

1375
01:12:32.520 --> 01:12:32.960
Walls and.

1376
01:12:34.640 --> 01:12:36.520
Stuff that just really incredible.

1377
01:12:36.600 --> 01:12:39.560
Yeah, and then we ended up in Door County, which

1378
01:12:39.760 --> 01:12:44.119
is very similar to Michigan's Upper Michigan. It's like the

1379
01:12:44.159 --> 01:12:46.000
Traverse City area that we visit a lot.

1380
01:12:46.119 --> 01:12:49.560
Yeah, lots of cherries and touristy towns, but not but

1381
01:12:49.680 --> 01:12:52.880
cool towns like artsy and interesting. Show had a really

1382
01:12:52.920 --> 01:12:53.239
good time.

1383
01:12:53.279 --> 01:12:55.319
It was some really great family time.

1384
01:12:55.399 --> 01:12:55.600
Yeah.

1385
01:12:55.680 --> 01:12:58.600
We went to a nice outdoor play in Door County,

1386
01:12:58.640 --> 01:13:01.000
which is really cool and everyone and enjoyed it though.

1387
01:13:01.159 --> 01:13:03.439
Yeah, that was really fun. Yeah, we did a lot

1388
01:13:03.439 --> 01:13:03.960
of cool things.

1389
01:13:04.000 --> 01:13:05.720
Yeah, it was really nice. A lot of driving, thirteen

1390
01:13:05.800 --> 01:13:07.199
hundred miles of driving.

1391
01:13:07.359 --> 01:13:09.479
That was a lot of The drive home was a

1392
01:13:09.479 --> 01:13:12.760
little rough, but I mean, I know we're all adults now,

1393
01:13:13.159 --> 01:13:16.079
but everyone did great. There were no meltdowns. I was

1394
01:13:16.119 --> 01:13:17.560
the ride home. I was like, oh my god, someone's

1395
01:13:17.560 --> 01:13:20.960
gonna melt down, and our listeners will be happy to

1396
01:13:21.000 --> 01:13:24.399
know that. Rich did not play Jeth Throw Toll's greatest

1397
01:13:24.439 --> 01:13:28.239
hits like the whole Way There and back. But I

1398
01:13:28.279 --> 01:13:30.159
did tune out a little. I tend to tune out

1399
01:13:30.159 --> 01:13:31.800
when you're playing music. But it was kind of fun

1400
01:13:31.800 --> 01:13:32.640
because well I was.

1401
01:13:32.640 --> 01:13:36.039
Playing on Spotify like my playlist, and the kids would

1402
01:13:36.039 --> 01:13:39.279
add their songs to the jam and so their songs

1403
01:13:39.279 --> 01:13:40.640
would come on and it was nice.

1404
01:13:40.800 --> 01:13:40.960
Yeah.

1405
01:13:40.960 --> 01:13:44.720
I read a couple of good books overbreak. One is

1406
01:13:44.800 --> 01:13:47.520
called Broken Country and the other. Actually I did not

1407
01:13:47.560 --> 01:13:49.000
read two books. I read one and a half and

1408
01:13:49.079 --> 01:13:51.640
only halfway through the other one. It's called Don't Let

1409
01:13:51.760 --> 01:13:53.920
Him In by Lisa Jewel, and so far that one's

1410
01:13:53.960 --> 01:13:54.560
really good too.

1411
01:13:54.800 --> 01:13:55.319
Nice.

1412
01:13:55.479 --> 01:13:58.359
It was awesome to not read true crime books. I did.

1413
01:13:58.439 --> 01:14:01.600
I am working on a case that I'm excited to

1414
01:14:01.600 --> 01:14:04.439
tell you guys about, but I didn't work too much

1415
01:14:04.479 --> 01:14:06.119
on the podcast, which was really nice.

1416
01:14:06.239 --> 01:14:08.399
It was a very nice trip. Then we are back

1417
01:14:08.439 --> 01:14:10.800
now and happy to be back at it. Thank you

1418
01:14:10.880 --> 01:14:13.399
all for listening, and thank you again Carla for the

1419
01:14:13.520 --> 01:14:16.159
nice package that you sent with the snacks and the gifts.

1420
01:14:16.199 --> 01:14:17.119
That was so kind of you.

1421
01:14:17.560 --> 01:14:19.800
And thank you to Elizabeth who sent me a very

1422
01:14:19.920 --> 01:14:23.199
nice email today that I might have needed to read. Yeah,

1423
01:14:23.520 --> 01:14:27.000
not all the comments we get are good comments. They

1424
01:14:27.000 --> 01:14:29.279
don't always make us feel warm and fuzzy inside. But

1425
01:14:30.079 --> 01:14:33.159
Elizabeth sent a really nice email and I really appreciated it.

1426
01:14:33.479 --> 01:14:35.680
A lot of you send us nice messages all the time,

1427
01:14:35.760 --> 01:14:38.119
and we really do appreciate you, guys. We read your

1428
01:14:38.119 --> 01:14:40.840
messages and they really are one of the things that

1429
01:14:40.960 --> 01:14:42.479
keep us going on this journey.

1430
01:14:42.600 --> 01:14:42.880
Yeah.

1431
01:14:42.920 --> 01:14:46.800
Absolutely, Until next time, don't kill your husband and don't

1432
01:14:46.880 --> 01:15:17.680
kill your wife.

1433
01:15:01.319 --> 01:15:30.159
The topick, the