Danielle and Michael Redlick

0:00 Hi, I'm rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty. Years of marriage, some days you'll feel like killing your husband. And some days you'll feel like killing your wife. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Tina, Happy. New Year, Happy twenty twenty five. How are you today? You know I'm about fifty percent today. Yeah. I wanted to thank everyone for your well wishes, and we're so sorry that we took last week off. It was not the way we wanted to start twenty twenty five off. But I've been pretty sick.

0:43 Yeah, you haven't had much of a holiday. It wasn't the holiday week I was hoping for. I do have a two part episode that I've been working on that we were supposed to record last week, but because I haven't been feeling well, you stepped up and you whipped up this case over break your break. So thank you for doing that. Oh sure, and we will hopefully record that other episode soon. That sounds good. I have a fun twenty twenty five math fact. Okay, you know one cubed plus two cubed plus three cube plus four cube plus five cube plus six, seven, eight nine cubed equals twenty five, so you can use that at your next dinner party to amaze your friends.

1:26 Awesome, thank you for that fact. Sure would you like. You're gonna have to do all the heavy lifting today? So sorry everyone, which. Is I'm not very good at heavy lifting it, But would you like it? You're very good at it? Yeah? I would. I would love us neck. So I made this French silk pie. I posted a picture of it on Instagram because it was so beautiful. You haven't tried it yet. I have not eaten it. No, I haven't eaten much of anything the last couple of weeks. Yeah. So I've made this on New Year's Eve, but we still have it like a piece left. So, and how sad was your New Year's Eve? Because I was. I was in bed. I've been in I've been in bad Christmas Eve, Christmas Day I rallied a little bit, but I was still in bad most of the day. Yeah, New Year's Eve, I was in bad most of the day.

2:11 So it's been a little sad. But we've all felt really bad for you. You've obviously had the worse than We can't really complain. Well, life hack, you had to do all the cooking and like on Christmas Eve, like the kids like, I don't know, everyone cleaned and everyone in the day after Christmas, you guys put Christmas away. So we've tried our best, but it's definitely given us a new appreciation for how much you do around here. Yeah, anyway, here is a piece of French silk pie for you. What did you think that was so good? Good? There's such a good little cook. I really like French silk pie. My favorite and that is we talked about it on an episode not long ago.

2:54 But Sally's used to be Sally's baking addiction, her recipe, and it's yeah, it's amazing. You did a great job. Sally did a great job too. But yeah, she's really yummy. I highly recommend it if you like pie, if you like chocolate, and you like pie chocolate and can't go wrong. And do you want to talk about the friend that's joining us in the studio today? Oh? Is he standing right behind me? Right behind your shoulder. Yeah, that was a very excellent gift that you got us for Christmas. It's a life size Keith Morrison cut out. Yeah, so Keith will be joining us. I don't know if eventually we'll get all the Dateline team members to join us. But I really like Kevin Keith here. Yeah, I think it's it. It's inspiring for us. Today we're going to be sharing the story of Danielle and Michael Redlick. It's a fairly recent story. Just a warning, this episode contains descriptions of domestic violence and suicide, so please listen with care. On the morning of January twelfth, twenty nineteen, forty five year old Danielle Redlick frantically called nine one one. She said that she believed Michael Redlick, her sixty five year old husband of more than than seventeen years, was deceased. She thought it was a heart attack, she said, But the other details that emerged during the nine one one call and on the scene of Michael's death, later described as something out of a horror movie, made it clear that this was no heart attack. The story Danielle told the nine one one dispatcher and later the police had holes in it, too many holes. Eventually, Danielle would have the opportunity to explain all of those discrepancies

4:27 to a jury. The question was would they believe her. Ooh born in nineteen seventy three. Danielle grew up as Danielle Drohan in Cleveland, Ohio, the oldest of five kids. I'm not sure what became of Danielle's father, but her mom, Kathleen, had a second marriage to a man named Robert Akino. Sometime around nineteen ninety six, when Danielle was twenty two years old, her mom separated from Robert and met someone new. His name was Michael. Redlickh That name sounds familiar. Michael Redlick had been a lawyer for thirteen teen years before he decided to turn his passion for sports into a new career. He went back to school at Ohio University, where he earned his masters in Sports management, then worked in sports marketing roles with the Cleveland Browns NFL team and the Cleveland Cavaliers of the NBA. He was very successful, helping the Browns raise more corporate sponsorship revenue than any other NFL franchise. In nineteen ninety nine, shortly after they started dating, Kathleen was diagnosed with breast cancer. When it became clear that Kathleen was not going to survive, she and Michael got married. In nineteen ninety nine. I believe they got married mainly so that Kathleen could get on Michael's insurance, which would help her with their end of life care. In any case, Michael Redlick was now a stepfather to Danielle and her four younger siblings, although most of them were adults. Danielle herself was twenty five or twenty six at this point in not living at home. Sadly, Kathleen passed away three months after she and Michael married.

6:00 While most of the children were now adults, Danielle's youngest sister was sixteen and still had a year of high school left. Michael wanted to provide her with as much stability as possible, but he also had a burgeoning and demanding career as a sports executive. He asked Danielle if she would consider moving into help out, and she agreed. At this time, Danielle was working part time as a bartender and attending school. Michael was supportive, introducing Danielle to his network of contacts and helping her land her first professional job in the business world. Their shared grief over the loss of Danielle's mom evolved over time and became a friendship. Michael would take her to concerts. Then he started hanging out at the bar where she worked, and eventually, a year or two after Kathleen had passed away, the relationship became romantic.

6:49 How long had Kathleen and Michael been involved for. I think they were dating for a couple of years, maybe two years before they got married. And Danielle hadn't lived at home during that time. I don't think so. No, So she didn't really know him that well. No, And she later said she never really considered him to be a stepfather, which you can understand, you know, but still kind of an unusual way for a relationship to get started in some way, was stating your mom. Michael's career continued to flourish, and in two thousand and one, he got a job offer with the Memphis Grizzlies basketball team to be their executive VP of business Operations. He asked Danielle to move to Memphis with him, but she wasn't ready for that. Her whole family was still in Cleveland and she hadn't told them that she and Michael were dating. It was just too weird, seeing as he had been married to her mom, so she kept it a secret from the rest of the family. So Michael moved to Memphis on his own while Danielle stayed in Cleveland, but he would send her plane tickets to fly out and spend weekends with him. First it was occasionally, but over time it became an almost every weekend kind of thing.

7:52 One weekend, after about a year of their long distance relationship, Michael took Danielle out to Mud Island, a nice area of Memphis on the banks of the Mississippi River. He pulled up to a beautiful home, took her inside, and said, I bought this place for us. So she ended up moving to Memphis. Through his contacts in Memphis, Michael helped Danielle land a job in the radio industry. Danielle gave birth to a daughter, Jaden, in two thousand and three. The couple got married in two thousand and four. Danielle was thirty two Michael was fifty three. In two thousand and eight, they added a son, Sawyer. So Michael hadn't had a previous marriage or previous children. I don't know a lot about his previous life. I do believe he may have been married once before, but I don't believe there were children.

8:38 Michael's career continued to grow. Around two thousand and nine, he took a job as VP of Business Development with the San Francisco forty nine ers. You must be envious of this guy's career with all this time. I mean, that would be pretty cool to work in that environment. It only lasted a year or so, though, due to changes at the top of the organization. He soon joined the Indianapolis Motor Speedway as the Vice president and chief sales Officer. The world of professional sports was a glamorous one. It paid well, but it also required a lot of moving, disruption, and stress. In twenty thirteen, Michael decided to leave the professional sports world behind to provide a more stable environment for his family. It was a significant salary cut, but he took a job with the University of Central Florida as the Director of External Affairs and Partnership Relations for the Devas Sports Business Management Program. The family moved to Winter Park, Florida, a suburb of Orlando. They loved Michael at UCF. He saw it as an opportunity to give back to the next generation of students. Sports Business Management program had a strong emphasis on community service, and Michael was happy to get involved. He joined students on a trip to New Orleans to help rebuild homes after Hurricane Katrina, and he mentored students who organized a charity to benefit the Hull's Foundation, which was established after the mass shooting at the Pulse night club in Orlando. The students called him read. After his death, two hundred students and alumni

10:10 messaged email and called UCF to express their gratitude for the contributions Michael had made to their lives. His colleagues also remembered how much he talked about his kids, Jaden and Sawyer. It was obvious to all that they were the center of his life. Although it may sound like Danielle and Michael had a perfect life together, it was far from it. Their marriage could best be described as tumultuous. Their neighbor, who lived across the street, heard them fighting regularly. He described numerous occasions where he saw Danielle screaming at Michael, for example, as they were coming out of the front door. He never saw Michael raise his voice back at Danielle. He described Michael as very passive during these incidents. Michael's co workers knew that the couple fought a lot. To his close friends. Michael described Danielle as crazy and explode Joseph and said that she would throw things at him when angry. He would joke quote, as long as I hide the steak knives, everything will be fine.

11:08 It's possible that could be a little foreshadowing. Oh. The parent of one of their son's teammates said that Danielle had a drinking problem. After a few drinks, she would suddenly turn like flipping a switch. In one of these incidents, they said that after about five drinks, Danielle suddenly started swinging her fists at them, to the point where they had to call the police. In June twenty sixteen, an officer on patrol in Winter Park came into contact with Danielle after she had been drinking, and ended up filing a report stating that she was disorderly, disruptive, belligerent, and was exhibiting violent behavior towards others. In October twenty sixteen, police recalled to Danielle and Michael's home after they had been fighting. While the officer tried to get the necessary information from Danielle, she became progressively more upset and finally refused to speak with them, and then abruptly left the building.

12:03 A friend reported seeing Michael with a large black eye one time, and just a week before his death, they saw bruises that looked like four fingerprints on his forearm. From these accounts, it may seem like Michael was the more passive one in these marital fights, but there is evidence that he was also physical with Danielle. Many of these accounts come from Danielle after Michael's death, but there is some independent confirmation that Michael struck Danielle at least once. An orthopedic surgeon who worked for the Memphis Grizzlies at the same time that Michael worked there recalled a time when Michael brought Danielle in, apparently to avoid taking her to a hospital or outside doctor. It's horrible, m h.

12:45 The doctor's recollection of this was vague years later, but he said that he remembered both Michael and Danielle having injuries. He didn't keep any records of the visit, but recalled referring Danielle to a plastic surgeon and possibly a dentist for a shipped tooth. He said that they both seemed ashamed if he thought that there were signs of domestic abuse. Shouldn't he have reported that As a physician. You would think so. Yeah. Additionally, the mom of one of Sawyer's baseball teammates would later recall a stay in the spring of twenty eighteen when Danielle came to pick Sawyer up. Danielle was wearing sunglasses and a hat, and the fred noticed that Danielle seemed to be hiding a black eye. So it's a really toxic and volatile relationship.

13:27 Yeah. Things came to a head in January twenty eighteen when Danielle discovered a series of emails between Michael and another woman indicating that he had been having an affair. To blow off steam, Danielle went out drinking with a couple of friends and ended up getting arrested. The police report for that incident describes a very aggressive altercation between Danielle and Kelly Joe Pritz, one of the friends that she was out with. The three of them were on their way home from the bars when the fight took place. The driver of the car, Richard Argueo, pulled over at a gas station because he was worried that he the fight would cause him to crash. When the police showed up at the gas station. They found all three individuals injured and bloody. The arresting officer noted, quote, after talking to Richard and Kelly, I attempted to talk to Danielle, but she had nothing to say that was coherent in nature. Unquote.

14:17 Some of the random statements attributed to Danielle on the arrest report included, I am Winter Park and Babe Ruth was a badass, so pretty incoherent. Paramedics arrived to treat the three people, but Danielle yelled, obscenites, pushed, kicked, and attempted to bite them. Eventually, Danielle was handcuffed, taken to jail, and charged with disorderly intoxication, battery on an officer, and resisting an officer with violence. Those charges were later reduced and Danielle was given a year of probation, during which time she was not supposed to drink alcohol. In February twenty eighteen, Michael called nine to one. One Danie Police.

14:57 Yes, one two three one Temple Drive, Winter Park, Florida. There's a woman that's the danger to herself and to others right now. Address one two three one Temple Drive, Winner Park, Florida, okay say the line. I'm gonna have to transpress over to what your park. Let me talk first. When they answer, okay, you are going to room. Yeah, well one police fire remarical. That's the sinel to transfer for police at twelve thirty one Temple Drive.

15:39 Yeah. Thanks, you stop, all right, I'll I will call you back. I'll call you back in five minutes. I'll call you back in five minutes. What is going on there? Hello? Yeah, I'm still there. He didn't give me a information and just said that there was a woman who was a dangers who were to herself. Hearing that call and hearing Danielle in the background, it just I can't imagine living in that type of environment with just constant fighting and stress. It just sounds horrible. It does. When the police arrived, Michael told them that Danielle had been drinking and they had had an argument, but that she was now sleeping. If Danielle had been drinking, this would be a violation of her probation, but it's unclear whether any action was taken as a result of this.

16:28 Danielle filed for divorce in March twenty eighteen, describing the marriage as irretrievably broken. In the divorce petition, Danielle sought shared custody of the kids and asked for alimony and exclusive use of the couple's home. Michael had moved out by this time, but the couple stayed in contact to help raise the children, who were fourteen and ten by this time. The divorce papers that Danielle filed never got served to Michael. However, he avoided it for a while, and then one day he came back home to pick up some things. Semedpensive, so Danielle asked him what was on his mind. He said, I love my wife. I don't want to be with anyone else. Danielle softened toward him, and the two lay down together. Ironically, the process server knocked at the door. At this time, Danielle had tipped them off that Michael would be there that day. She answered the door and sent the process server away. The couple decided to reconcile, and the divorce petition was eventually dismissed because Michael had never been served.

17:27 What do they think would be different if they reconcile. I don't know, YEA. It really does make you wonder. While they did try to reconcile. Things between them didn't seem to improve as you predicted. In mid May, while they were still living apart, Danielle picked up a book that Michael had brought to the house and a piece of paper fell out of it. It looked like a speech that Michael had written, and it said something about being newly divorced and being lucky if God finds you another woman. We don't have the actual content, but that's just paraphrasing based on Danielle's description. It shook Danielle up because outwardly, Michael was acting like they were trying to reconcile, and this made it seem like he was actually planning on divorce. Danielle sent a lengthy email to Michael soon after that with the subject line, stuff I'm thinking about.

18:14 Here are some excerpts from the email to understand Danielle's feelings at the time. I know I'm bitter at times, I admit, and no it's not pretty, and I do need to get a grip, as you put it, but you have a lot of nerve as well. Although my words may be cutting, they are only sounds a dull knife compared to the sharp disloyal, deceiving, phony and never ending selfish knife you continue to twist in my back as if it's a sport. At this point, I've never met anyone who convinces themselves over and over that their immoral, conniving actions are not just that, but are somehow justified and or reasonable, no matter their cost or harm to others. I noticed, whenever I confront or attempt to process work through the cuts your knives wound me with you have a hard time. I'm trouble admitting the true nature of just how sharp and dangerous their edges are. They are nonetheless weapons, and you are always claiming the right to hurt me with them. I went on sacrificing my own happiness and ended up jeopardizing my children's as well. I blame you, but really I am just as at fault.

19:17 I did not take care and I did not act with self love. I was wrong. I drank, I raged, I became the ugly pain in my heart on the outside, I changed and witnessed a darkness in me that I never knew was there or could be part of me. My pain made me dark, ugly, and shameful. I was hopeful, sweet, and full of life and love when I met you. For the record, I really wanted the Romeo and Juliette story. I wanted a soulmate to trust melt into, be there for, even die for if it came down to it, to show the depth of my love and hopefully vice versa. This note was really really long. That's probably less than ten percent of it that I've kind of picked and shows different things, but it was a really lengthy note.

19:58 I just want you to make a quick mental note of during those passages that I read from her, note, how often she talks about knives and cutting and Romeo and Juliet Like I know, Romeo and Juliet are. The story is sort of, you know, an idealized version of true love. But also that story doesn't end well, as most people know, So just make a note of that. Another source of their problems, according to Danielle, was that Michael was taking testosterone injections because he was having difficulty performing sexually. Danielle said that the treatments made him more aggressive and hostile toward her, including being physically aggressive with her during sex. During the spring and summer of twenty eighteen, Michael was still living in a rented condo. As fall approached, he told Danielle that their finances weren't in good shape.

20:46 He proposed that he moved back into the house and they prepare to sell it. They could decide what to do about their marriage once they got to that point. With the holidays approaching, Danielle felt like it might be nice for the kids to have their dad back home, and so she agreed. Michael moved back home during fall of twenty eighteen. During the nine to one to one call, I zelloed their house. Oh did you Yeah? They lived in a four bedroom, two and a half bath house thirty five hundred square feet and the z estimate is one point seven million dollars. Oh very nice. So yeah, it looks like a very very nice house. Although Michael had moved back into the house, Danielle later said that she still didn't expect the relationship to last.

21:29 She said that although things were mostly amicable between them, there were still incidents where he was sexually aggressive towards her. On December fifth, twenty eighteen, Danielle created an account on the dating website meetmindful dot com. Meet Mindful is described as a dating app and community for people who want to make meaningful connections and live healthy, happy lives. Danielle signed up with a status of separated, looking for friendship, dating, and long term relationships. In her profile, she wrote, quote looking for down to earth kind of deep would be interesting, passionate, zest for life type guy with sense of humor to spend time with and hopefully shares the same definition of love.

22:13 Also not going to lie love the whole Romeo and Juliette fairy tale, but I keep it real. Oh my gosh. I think having a real, meaningful and strong connection is what appeals to me. End quote. Yeah, I'm not sure what her fixation was on the Romeo and juliet thing, And I don't think that's a fairy tale. But and Julia were fourteen tragedy. Yeah that too. Danielle messaged back and forth with several guys over the next few weeks through the Meat Mindful Sight, including a man named Caesar. On January tenth, the day before his death, Michael Redlick was drinking and apparently looked at Danielle's phone and saw those messages. According to Danielle, he was livid and it led to an intense argument.

22:54 It was so intense that fifteen year old Jaden said that she physically got between her parents to try and calm things down. Danielle ended up leaving the house. While she was gone, Jaden texted her and said she was pouring out michael vodka. Danielle replied, quote, you know you may not want to pour all that out because I need him to pass out so I can come home at some point unquote. Eventually, eleven year old Sawyer texted her and said Michael had passed out, so Danielle returned home and went to sleep. I feel so bad for these kids. The next day, January eleventh, Michael apologized to Jaden for having seen Danielle and him fighting. Jaden later said, quote, he wasn't angry at all. He kept saying he was sorry.

23:35 He kept saying how much he loved me. End quote. Soon after that, both Jaden and Sawyer left for sleepovers at friend's houses. It was the last time either of them would see their father. Fast forward to the morning of January twelfth, Danielle called nine one one at nine twenty eight, am. My husband, okay, and why did you believe he's fifty? Because been I I just he's this and he did you wonder he might have had a heart attack. I don't know. Okay, did you just find him? No? Actually, what happened last night?

24:18 It happened last night? Correct? Okay? So did you find him this morning? Cause I know you said that you believed it happened last night. Did you see him last night? Was he okay? Or was he was not? Okay? Last night we had we had altercations and they stapped himself and I ran into the bathroom and then I came out. I tried to help him and I saw he was lying in blood and the okay, I tried to correct, Yes, and then I tried to help him. And I thought I woke up with sitting up next to him.

24:59 And I've been say what's due? Right? I gotcha. I'm gonna get you some help. But you all had an altercation last night? Correct? Yeah? Okay, So Danielle, let me asks you this. So did he stab himself last night and he passed last night and you just didn't know what to do? Correct? I believe? So? Yes, Okay, were you all drinking? He was? He was? Yes? He was. An uh altercation That was the night before too, But I left the house and took my children with me because he was danty unto.

25:47 Were your kids there last night during this office ca? Oh they were not the We're not Yeah, no, no, no, no. I know you first said that you thought he had a heart attack. So do you think with a heart attack. Or do you think it was due to the stabbing that he passed away? So probably the stabbings triggered it. I guess, I don't know. It's the shoulder wound. If it's the shoulder. Wom why. At nine one one operator seemed dubious, a little incredulous. Maybe yeah. The call went on from there. We weren't able to find the rest of the audio, but later on the call, Danielle elaborates on the altercation. She said it started around ten thirty pm and that Michael tried to choke her or suffocate her. She next said that she went for the knife and Michael taunted her, saying what are you going to do with that? Are you going to stab me?

26:44 Then she said he grabbed the knife from her, made a stabbing motion as if he were going to stab himself, and then she went into the bathroom. When asked why she didn't call nine one one, sooner. Danielle said, quote, yeah, I'm on probation and I was afraid. I didn't think anyone would believe me, and I was just trying to get him to wake up. She said she was exhausted and fell asleep, then tried to hurt herself in the morning. At the end of the call, as police and paramedics were showing up, she said to the operator, quote, it doesn't look good for me to summarize. Danielle called nine one one eleven hours after she said that Michael had stabbed himself. First, she claimed that he had a heart attack.

27:25 Then she said they had an altercation and Michael stabbed himself, but that she believed the stabbing caused him to have a heart attack. She was very specific with the details of that part of the story, her grabbing the knife, Michael taunting her, taking the knife away, and making stabbing motions towards himself. She said. After she emerged from the bathroom and found him on the floor, she performed CPR, but got tired and fell asleep next to his body. Then she woke up the next morning and finally called nine one one. So what do you make of Danielle's story? It sounds a little out there, And why did she not call? Well, I know she fell allegedly fell asleep, so we're supposed to believe she fell asleep, slept there till morning.

28:07 Right, Yeah, it just doesn't The whole thing doesn't add up, does it. No, we'll be back after a break. Paramedics and police arrived to find Danielle crying. She had slit her wrists, but the bleeding had stopped by this time. Paramedics bandaged her wrists up and transported her to the hospital. Inside, officers found the body of Michael Redlick lying in the living room, shirtless, face up, arms stretched out. Officers observed the wound to his shoulder, as well as a small cut near his left eye. There was blood everywhere. Michael's jeans appeared to be saturated with blood. Blood was smeared on the floor in a trail from the primary bedroom to the primary bathroom. There was blood on the baseboards in the bathroom. There was a folded pair of women's pants near the bathroom room with blood on them. There was a large, bloody serrated knife on the floor at the entry of the kitchen. In the kitchen sink, there were three more kitchen knives that appeared to have blood on them. There were bloody footprints near Michael's body, near the couch and on the living room rug. It was obvious to the detectives that there had been an attempt at cleaning the scene. They noticed a strong smell of bleach on entering the house and there were circular markings on the floor as if someone had tried to wipe up the blood. Bloody towels were found in a pile.

29:31 There was a mop with blood on it and a bucket full of pink liquid nearby. Michael's shirt was found in the pile of towels. It had a tear in it consistent with where the knife wound in his shoulder was, indicating that it had been removed after he was stabbed. There was a McDonald's bag in the garbage with blood on it. Detectives found a receipt from McDonald's showing a quarter pounder and fries were purchased. At nine forty three pm on the eleventh, detective war of the winter Park Police Department and it went to the hospital to interview Danielle. Danielle provided some background information about their marital troubles and Michael finding out that she had been messaging a guy on a dating site and how that led to the fight on January tenth. But when it came to describing the events on the eleventh that resulted in Michael's death, she refused to talk. She did, however, talk to an agent with the Department of Children and Families or DCF, who came to speak with her in the hospital. Danielle was going to be held for a few days due to her suicide attempt, so the purpose of the visit was to discuss what should happen to the children. However, the police had another purpose in mind. They spoke with the DCF agent before she met with Danielle and prepped her to try and get more information about what happened.

30:45 The agent didn't inform Danielle of her right to an attorney or that she was working with the police, and she shared the interview with the police afterwards. This was a bit of an underhanded move by the investigators, sort of a sneaky way to get Danielle to talk. In this interview, Danielle shared more details about what she said happened on the night of the eleventh. First, she said that she and Michael had exchanged numerous text messages on the eleventh, continuing their argument from the day before about the guy that Danielle had been messaging. That evening, she stopped at mc donald's and was eating her burger at home when Michael came up to her, took a bite of her hamburger and angrily spit it into her face. At that point, she said, Michael grabbed her arms and pushed her to the ground. She was able to get up, but then he pushed her head down on the stove and rubbed his fist into her face. While she struggled, She said, he put his hands over her face, covering her nose and mouth. In fear for her life, she grabbed a knife from a nearby drawer, but he took it from her. She then repeated the same story she had told the nine one one operator that he had made a stabbing motion with the knife towards himself. She ran to the bathroom and locked the door. She said he came to the door and kept saying Sam Katy, which apparently was a reference to the movie Cape that they had seen three weeks prior. Now, the character in that movie is actually named Max Katie. Sam Bowden was the name of the other character played by Nick Nolty, So I'm not sure if she got that wrong or if he got it wrong, but in any case, she said he kept saying Sam Katy, she said. Eventually he

32:18 was quiet. She opened the door and saw blood on the floor. She followed the trail to the living room, where she found Michael motionless on the floor. She said she looked for her phone but couldn't find it. She kept slipping in the blood on the floor, and so she grabbed a towel to wipe up some of the blood, and then checked to see if Michael was alive. She took his shirt off to see the stab wound and tried CPR for a very long time until she was exhausted and collapsed next to him. You're probably going to get into this, but how bad was the stab wound? How deep was it? It was deep enough that it cut through a vein that was a very important vein. She said that she thought about calling the police, but couldn't find her phone When she woke on Saturday morning, the twelfth, she made another attempt to clean up the blood on the floors.

33:05 She then decided to slit her wrists, which she did in the kitchen at some point after that. She would later say she couldn't remember how long she called nine one one. The autopsy took place on Sunday, January thirteenth. In addition to the fatal stab wound to Michael's left shoulder, there were other injuries found in the external examination. There was a small wound on his face near his left eye made by a sharp instrument, a contusion on the inside of his upper lip, faint bruises on his chest, an area of bruises on his upper left arm, and also on his wrist. There was not, however, any bruising on Michael's chest where one would expect it if someone had been performing CPR. The cause of death was clearly the stab wound to his left shoulder. The knife severed a large vein and also punctured his lung, leading to significant blood loss, which killed him. The medical examiner estimated that it would have taken in five to six minutes for him to bleed out. He may have been able to walk around for part of that time, but would have felt the effects of the blood loss pretty quickly.

34:08 There was no sign of a heart attack. The medical examiner also determined that the stab wound could not have been self inflicted. The manner of death was ruled homicide. At this point, you may be wondering whether Danielle had any injuries to her body other than the self inflicted cuts on her wrist. There was a light colored bruise on her left upper arm that the paramedic observed. The er doctor who examined Danielle noted that she didn't complain of any other injuries. There was no trauma to her head or neck, which might have indicated choking, no neurological trauma, no tenderness anywhere. A sample of Danielle's blood was taken at eleven thirty on the morning of the twelfth and tested while she told the nine to one to one operator that only Michael had been drinking the night before, Her blood detected alcohol at a level of greater than ten milligrams per desolat. That's not much. It translates to point oh one or point oh two blood alcohol level.

35:03 Point oh eight is the legal limit for driving in most states. But keep in mind this was thirteen hours after the altercation, so it's likely that she was intoxicated at some point the night before, and remember she was still on probation at the time and prohibited from drinking. Do you know how long it takes to metabolize alcohol. A quick Google search tells me that it's about one drink per hour that is metabolized by your body. A search warrant for Danielle's phone was obtained and it was seized. There were a few interesting things to note. First, Danielle had told the DCF investigator that she and Michael had exchanged numerous texts on the tenth and eleventh leading up to the altercation, but there were no texts between Danielle and Michael on her phone. She had deleted them all prior to calling nine to one one. Remember that Danielle's original story was that on the night of the eleventh, after finding Michael laying on the living room floor, she wanted to call nine one one but couldn't find her phone.

36:01 Her phone records contradicted that story, showing that at ten fifty two pm, twenty minutes after she said the altercation started, she dialed nine one one, nine one one on her phone. The call didn't go through, though, because that's not a valid number, and she didn't attempt to call nine one one again for almost eleven hours. If she dialed nine one one, nine one one, she still dialed nine one one. It's just because she dialed. It in she should. Like on a cell phone, if you dial nine one one, nine one one, it's going to think it's a six digit phone number you're trying to call, Okay. Danielle was, however, active on her phone after the nine one one, nine one one call. She was in her phone messaging app and although we can't be sure, the activity found by the forensic examiner was consistent with someone deleting a bunch of messages. So the speculation was that Danielle was deleting the messages between her and Michael during that time and all so deleting the messages between herself and Caesar that had originally sparked the fight. I always get confused by this. This happened in twenty nineteen, so not that long ago. The messages. She deleted the messages and they weren't able to retrieve them.

37:16 Yeah, it is kind of strange. I think sometimes you can and sometimes you can't. And the phone forensics guy testified later and he said that, you know, they couldn't even be sure that she was deleting the messages at this time, Like they just don't know one hundred percent. He said. Sometimes you can retrieve deleted messages and sometimes you can't. It's such an inaccurate science, it really is. But wouldn't they have been able to retrieve them from Michael's phone? Yeah? I wondered the same thing. And in my research, I didn't find anything out about Michael's phone. I think that it's possible that they couldn't get into his phone, that it was locked and had a password. And I do remember a mention that he had an Android phone, and Android phones are more secure, like it's harder to to hack into it if you're the police. So I think that may be the case.

38:04 I know you know my phone pass code, because it's it's really impenetrable. Yes, I don't know yours? Do I know yours? Yeah? You do? Oh? Okay does it start with an eight? Yes, it starts with an eight. Okay, what does mine. Start with a zero? It sure does. It might end with the zero too. Please don't hack into my phone. Eventually, really, there's nothing out like you would be you would be sad for me because my phone is so boring. Eventually, at twelve twenty am on the twelfth, she plugged her phone into a charger and stopped using it between twelve forty three and seven twenty am. Data from the Meat Mindful dating app showed that on the twelfth and seven to twenty two am, two minutes after unplugging it from the charger, in two hours before Danielle called nine to one one, she accessed the Meat Mindful website.

38:58 So that actually sounds because it sounds like she was on this dating website while her husband was lying dead in the other room and she hadn't yet called nine one one. But one thing I just want to point out, we need to be careful here because the detectives made a big deal of this, like, oh, she's on this dating site while her husband's lying in the other. I would assume she's deleting her profile. No, it wasn't even that. What I believe happened here is very much like other cases. Karen Reid as an example, she was on the Meat Mindful website the day before and then she closed her browser down, and so when she picked her phone back up and opened her browser it may have reloaded that. Page within a minute of accessing the meat Mindful site. At seven twenty two am, she began using her phone to research suicide. She searched on Google for slitting wrists and then went to Quora to view a page called how do you slit wrists? Almost an hour later, at eight twenty one am, she googled how long before you die if you split your wrists. Her phone data showed that she was using her phone actively up to the time she finally called nine one one at nine twenty eight a. M. D'anielle was arrested on February fifth, twenty nineteen, three and a half weeks after Michael's death. She was charged with second degree murder with a weapon in tampering with physical evidence. In Florida, second degree murder is the unlawful killing of a person without premeditation, but with a depraved mind and disregard for human life. She was ordered to be held without bail due to the strength of

40:28 the case against her and the determination that she was a danger to the community. She was also ordered to have no unsupervised contact with her kids and not to consume any alcohol or possess any weapons. If she did get released. Eventually, with their father, dad, and their mother in jail, Jaden and Sawyer fifteen eleven moved in with the family of one of Jaden's best friends. The family already knew Jaden well, as she had been staying the night there on average two to three nights a week for the two years before Michael's death, which hopefully made the transition easier for them. Were there no other relatives for the children to stay with. I don't know a lot about the family situation. I know that all of Danielle's other relatives were in Ohio.

41:12 I know her mom had passed away. I don't know what happened to her dad. She had siblings, but they were all in Ohio, so I think that it probably made more sense for the kids to stay there. As the weeks and months went on leading to Danielle's trial, her defense team filed several motions They tried unsuccessfully to convince a judge to allow Danielle to post bail. They were also unsuccessful in getting Danielle's interview with the Department of Family and Children's investigator excluded from the trial. Her attorneys argued that the DCF already knew that the children were safe, and their only reason to interview Danielle was to gather information for the police, and that was done without informing Danielle of her rights. I think they actually have a pretty good point here, but the judge did not agree with that. Another blow to the defense came when the judge prohibited them from presenting any evidence of Michael's intoxication or allegations of prior aggressive behavior. This included testimony from a woman who came forward after his death and claimed that he had sexually assaulted her decades ago.

42:13 I should clarify here. As I read this now, I realized it might be a little confusing. They were allowed to talk about Michael's prior behavior toward Danielle, but not anything prior to that in other relationships. The defense was successful, however, in a motion that would allow Danielle to claim self defense in her trial, the assistant Dia argued that it didn't make sense for Danielle to claim self defense as she had never admitted to stabbing Michael. The only time she spoke with authorities, she maintained that he had stabbed himself, But the judge disagreed. At some point. Prior to the trial, there was talk of a plea deal. We don't know the specific terms of the deal that was offered, but it would have involved Danielle pleading guilty to manslaughter. She rejected the deal and opted to put her fate into the hands of a jury. In June twenty twenty two, after waiting in jail for three and a half years, Danielle's case finally went to trial. Six jurors and two alternates were seated. After interviewing one hundred potential jurors over three days. The prosecution's case was clear. Danielle had a history of anger issues triggered by drinking. She and Michael had a toxic relationship, and during a fight on the evening of January eleventh, she grabbed a kitchen knife and stabbed Michael. Then, rather than calling nine one one and getting help, she waited. She slid her wrists the next morning because she felt guilty about what she had done.

43:35 In their opening statement, Danielle's lawyers tried to convince the jury that Michael Redlick was the aggressor that night. He was in a rage due to finding messages between Danielle and another man on her phone. That rage was exacerbated by his drinking and perhaps the testosterone treatments he had been taking. In their narrative, Danielle had been afraid for her life, so she grabbed a knife and stabbed Michael once in the shoulder before running away. This is the first time that Danielle actually admitted that she stabbed Michael and that he hadn't stabbed himself. The prosecution called a series of witnesses who described the crime scene, the results of Michael's autopsy, Danielle's cell phone data, and other altercations between Michael and Danielle where Danielle had been the aggressor.

44:22 One of the biggest moments in the prosecution's case was when Jaden Redlick, now eighteen, testified against her mother. Her testimony, along with her brother Sawyers, weren't recorded, but we have some information from the news media that were there while Danielle cried in the courtroom. Jaden said that she had been close to her father, but described her mother as quote very toxic, very manipulative end quote. She said her parents' relationship was tumultuous and not healthy. When asked who was the primary source of the toxicity, Jaden said that it was her mother. She remembered the family's last Christmas together as good. Her father was happy to be at home again and to have the family altogether. She also testified to the fight that erupted on January tenth when her dad found the messages between her mom and another man, and how she physically got in between them to try and calm things down. Jaden also testified that her mom lied to her and told her the autopsy determined the cause of death to be a heart attack. Jaden said, quote, I remember very vividly we were on the front porch.

45:28 I remember her exact words were, the autopsy said he had a heart attack. End quote. We don't really have any information about Sawyer's testimony, who was fourteen at the time of the trial. After the prosecution finished with their witnesses, it was the defense's turn. Their first witness caused a stir in the courtroom. Danielle Redlick was going to testify on her own behalf. I don't have statistics, but it's rare for a defendant in a murder trial to take the stand in their own defense. It's often considered a hail mary done in desperation. If things aren't going well in Danielle's case, if she was going to claim self defense, then she was the only witness who could really testify as to what happened between the two of them that night.

46:10 She testified for over five hours, spanning across two days. Her lawyer started out right away establishing that Danielle did indeed stab her husband and her reasons for doing. So was right, like on January eleventh, twenty nineteen, did you stab your husband? I did? Yes. Wow. He was suffocating me. I couldn't breathe and he had me been down. Well, I was scared, and you know it was just in fear for my life. He had thought he snapped and I could die. She said that it wasn't the first time that Michael had attacked her, but it was one of the scariest. After that, they backed up, and she described the unique circumstances of how she met Michael through her mom's relationship and marriage. She testified that the physical violence started early in their relationship when they were in Memphis. She said he would grab her in a controlling way, man handling her and occasionally slamming her against a wall. She described the first time, he hit her in the face, causing her to bleed from her nose and mouth. Here she is describing another time that she said Michael got violent with her in.

47:19 One particular incident, and I remember he was coming home from work every day and he was pretty agitated. Something was really bothering him. I just remember that it was something had to do with something with two of his bosses, and he was coming home and he was born to drink each night. And I was still pretty young at that point. So I grew up in a house where you eat dinner every night. And I noticed that Michael, when he would drink, he would skip dinner. And so he was doing this. By the third night, I started to wonder, you know, are you going to keep doing this? I think I'm just going to go ahead and if you're not gonna eat dinner, I'm just going to go down to the to the river. There's some you know, a city walk where they have some shops and eateries and stuff. And when I said that, he got irritated and said, what are you mad? Because I don't want to have dinner with you? And I said, well, yeah, kind of at this point, because I said how's the wallowing working out for you, and said something sarcastic. And I went to head to the door to leave, and he was near the door and he moved in front of the door, and I tried to shove past him, and I feel like at that point, he raises his fist and he just crossed me in the face, and I feel like, I don't know, like he took out every frustration that he had had that week on me.

48:42 And the next thing I remember was actually laying in his lap and he was stroking me and he was apologizing. He was crying, and. I had looked down and I had blood all over me, and he was telling me how sorry he was, that he's going to take me out to a nice dinner tomorrow, and he wanted to go ahead and take care of me. Let him take care of me that night. The doctor for the Grizzlies later gave testimony that was consistent with Danielle's story, although he stated that Michael had also sustained injuries on that occasion. She went through the history of their relationship, all the different moves the job stress that Michael was under at various points, and the distance that grew between them during some of those moves.

49:29 She talked about finding out about Michael's low testosterone issues and the medications and treatments that led to more bizarre and aggressive behavior on his part. She testified about several incidents of abuse over the years, including sexual aggression, pushing, man handling, striking her, and one time driving a car at her. She also discussed first becoming aware of Michael's infidelity in twenty eighteen after looking through his emails. She then detailed her version of the events that started January tenth, when Michael found the messages between her and Caesar, the man she was chatting with through Meat Mindful. Her story of what happened on the tenth was supported by texts between her and her children showing that she had left the house after their fight and was fearful to come back home until Michael had passed out. She said he broke down the bathroom door at one point, which was also supported by photos. Then she got into how she said the stabbing happened. This clip is fairly long. It's about four minutes. I've edited out a lot of the extraneous stuff, but it should give you a clear picture of her story and how she said that the stabbing actually occurred.

50:37 So he comes over to you at the table, yes, and he takes your phone. Yes. What does he do at that point? He just walks to the right of me and then turns around pretty quickly and walks back toward me. And when he walks back towards you, what's he do? Grabs my sandwich and walks to the left of me. Yeah. What next? He's standing kind of the left front of me, and he he's talking about Caesar, and then he spits the food at me. How does it progress from there after you spit the sandwich? So then I just said okay, I grabbed the bag and I said, you know what, I think, I am going to go out with Caesar. And I start walking into the kitchen and I walk going to walk through the kitchen and I'm turning to throw the bag of food onto the center island, and that's when he comes up behind me and grabs me. I just shift and to the left and I trip up on my feet and I follow the ground and then I hear I feel something hit me in the back of the head.

51:44 I try and get up and he's right on top of me. So no, not all the way. I was on my knees, so as I was coming up, grabbed me by the collar, and I felt our heads collide and and at that point I grabbed the center island and I reach up to pull myself up to face him this way, and that's when he takes his right hand. So he grabs me here and slams me down onto. The center island counter. He had my he had his hand. He was holding my head down on the counter. So I'm just pinned up against the counter like this, and he's straddling my body here and has me pinned, and so my arm's here and he's got his hand on my head and he's holding it down. He's standing above me here this way, and he cocks his fist back.

52:41 I can see him, and he's act like he's gonna punch me in the face. And he said, he comes down and he grinds his fist. Into my face and then puts his hands over my both his hands over my hand and my nose, and he's pressing as hard as he can, smashing my nose in my face. I try to take the three or four breaths, and I couldn't even get a breath, So what do you do? What are you doing? All I can do? So I'm I've got a free arm here, and the drawer in front of me is the only thing I can do, and I know that there's items in there. When you realize that you're able to breathe, what's in your mind that he snapped and that he's probably gonna kill me? Why do you believe that?

53:25 Well, because I couldn't breathe and I was starting to freak out at that point, and he wasn't stopping. So I use my free arm to push open the drawer ahead of me. What do you gotten that for. A knife? How does it continue from there? Pulled the knife out and I don't know if he saw it, but he released my head, so I'm able to move. What are you gonna stab me? And I take the knife and I position it and face it toward him. At the time you have the knife and you stab him with it? What are you trying to do? What is your goal here in your mind.

54:06 To get away from him? Why if you don't do that, what is your belief that will happen? That he might smother me to death? Whatever he was going to do to me? What do you do at that point? I run? I run the opposite direction. I thought he was still coming after me. So what does he do when the knife goes into his body? When you stab him? What is his reaction? He just he backs away at that point, and he sort of backs away this way and I run the opposite direction. What do you think of Danielle's testimony there? I'm gonna be honest with you. I was eating pie a lot of that testiment, okay, but I have a really bad memory, especially about like movements and things like that.

54:58 So when she's going to specifics about, you know, what happened from moment to moment to moment, right, it seems a little it's hard for me to believe. I'm not saying it can't be true, but it seemed like it had too much detail. That was kind of one of my reactions too. I mean, she comes across as I think, very calm and believable in a lot of ways, but there are so many specific details that I wouldn't I wouldn't think after a fight like that you would remember all those details. Right, it's a very traumatic event. I don't think your recall would be amazing. My recall wouldn't be amazing. Yeah. Same. She said that after she stabbed him, she had no idea that the wound could have been fatal. She hid in the bathroom, worried that he was going to come after her. She said she heard him for a while he was being loud and yelling her name. After a while, she didn't hear him anymore. She kept waiting, wondering if he had left or if he was waiting to attack her. She finally came out after fifteen minutes or so and saw blood on the floor outside the bathroom door. She said that she was alarmed because it was quite a bit of blood. She followed the blood trail into the living room, where she saw Michael on the floor and yelled his name. She went closer and touched his face, but got no response. At this point, she started to panic. She started looking for her phone and finally found it on the couch. Rather than calling nine to one one at that point, she said, she decided to try CPR on him, but didn't get any response.

56:24 Then she tried to dial nine one one, but accidentally dialed it twice and it didn't connect. At this point, she says she went into full blown shock. Instead of dialing nine to one one again, she went and grabbed some towels and started wiping up the blood. She referred to her actions at this point as a quote series of really bad decisions quote. Around this time, she deleted the texts from Caesar and the texts between her and Michael, but she couldn't explain why she wasn't thinking rationally. She said, hmmm, so. We're to believe that she is in shock, but she is taking the steps that one would take if they were trying to cover up their crime. Yeah, that's a really good point. She continued on with the same story she had told earlier, that she fell asleep next to Michael, woke up the next morning and decided to slit her wrists after googling it. She took a sharp knife and cut her wrists. But then, she says, she decided to call nine one one.

57:19 You wake up? What are you doing? I look around at the horror scene, and I don't know what to do. I know that I have to call nine one one, that's for sure, and I start thinking about my kids. So did you call nine one one then? Not? At that point? What do you do next? I think I got on my phone and I started to think about I was thinking about my kids, like I said, and I thought, you know, maybe maybe it's just better that I go with him. And so then I googled you know, how to slit your wrists, and that's what I attempted to do at that point.

58:13 At some point, do you ever call anyone. Well nine one one? Why do you go from wanting to slit your wrist to calling nine one one? What change is there? You know? I heard something say not like this, Danielle. I not like this. Your kids don't need you, didn't need to be without both parents. She said that she lied to the nine to one one operator because she was scared, didn't know how to handle the situation, and didn't want to incriminate herself. We'll be back after a break. On cross examination, the prosecutor went after Danielle aggressively. He highlighted her hypocrisy and writing Michael an email on December fourteenth, twenty eighteen, calling him a lying, rotten son of a bitch because she had found a LinkedIn exchange between Michael and a woman, while at the same time she was messaging men through her dating app without Michael's knowledge. The prosecutor tried to make the case that more than anything, Danielle wanted a life without Michael. He had Danielle walk through the struggle that resulted in Michael's death, once again pushing her to provide specific details on the timeline and the exact positioning of Michael and her during the struggle. He also pressed her on all the lies that she told during the nine

59:44 to one one call and to the DCF agent. Here's a montage of some of the more fiery exchanges. It's about four minutes long, but I think it's pretty interesting to hear. And actually, yesterday you said that you felt like the attack was still ongoing, Right, it had not ceased. Yes, And while the attack is still ongoing, you let go of this deadly instrument. Correct, When the attack was still ongoing was after I let go? Meaning yes, you felt the attack was still ongoing after you stabbed him. Yes, And in that moment where you say the attack was still ongoing, you let go of the weapon and it drops or not. I don't know what your testimony is today. Correct, you let go of me and then I let go, But you thought the threat was still there? Yes, and you let go of the weapon. Yes, in the immediate proximity of your attack or correct, Yes, So you stood in that home with the power to call for help, and you let your husband bleed to death on that floor.

1:00:53 It had already bled to death when I was doing it, blowing into his mouth. I was wondering if I could recover or something him or something I. Didn't which one is it? Is he dead or you think it's possible to say? If he could be recovered, something would have to be done immediately, And so yes, I thought perhaps I should do that. You did not believe that your husband had a heart attack. Instrot, Actually I did, well. I was hoping too. You're hoping, not in the morbid sense that I wanted him dead, but he had had heart problems, and I thought, with all of that excitement, that perhaps he did so because if he had a. Heart attack, you wouldn't have been responsible for his death.

1:01:33 Yes, to an extent. It's red like you did not slit your wrist because you wanted to be with Michael on the after life, did you. I don't know if I was thinking rationally about anything of that. It's right, like you slit your wrist because you didn't want to be in that chair answering for what you're having to answer for today. Isn't that true? There were a lot of things going through my mind and that was one of them. That you didn't want to have to answer for what you did, and so that's why you slit your wrists. I was concer I was afraid. One of the reasons why you slit your wrists is because you didn't want to have to answer. Your answer didn't answer my question? Should not objection is over rule? Repeat your question, mister Wiggins.

1:02:15 One of the reasons why you slit your wrists is because you didn't want to have to answer for what you did. I suppose there could be one. How soon before you called nine one one did you slit your wrists? I don't remember. I don't know. Well, how long did you let yourself bleed, Miss Redlick before you dial nine one one? I don't remember how long I bled? I just don't remember. I don't know. You told Miss Tucker that you did not call nine one one because you couldn't find your phone. Correct, Yes, that was a lie. Yes, you told Miss Tucker that Michael took the knife from your hand. That was a lie.

1:03:05 I don't believe I said that. You told miss Tucker that he made a stabbing motion toward himself. Correct, he said, what are you going to stab me? But that's what I believe I. Told her, and you told her something. If that was an exact quote, you gave Miss Redlick the impression that mister Redlick disarmed you and had the knife. Correct. Yes, and that was a lie. Yes, you chose to lie. I lied. You chose to lie, Yes, Miss Redlick. You were willing to lie if you think it'll serve your interests. Correct. No, well, you thought it served your interest to lie to the folks that we've talked about thus far, right, I.

1:04:04 Think it served my interest of being confused and not knowing how to handle the situation. The lie was serving your interests, you admit that. Yes, So you were willing to lie if it serves your interests. Yes. I just love listening to a good combative questioning of somebody on the stand, and you just don't get to hear it that much because most people don't take the stand in their own defense. So if you like me, enjoy that sort of thing. The whole trial is on Court TV, so you can go and watch all of Danielle's testimony. I didn't watch the whole trial, but I did watch all of Danielle's testimony, which was five and a half hours, and I watched other bits and pieces, but I just found it fascinating. I think as a prosecutor, you have to be a little careful, especially when the defendant's defense is self defense and that she was a batter woman, and so I think you have to be careful not to come across as a bully or being too aggressive with her, which I think he kind of walked a fine line there, but I thought it was really interesting to hear. After Danielle left the stand, her lawyers called several more witnesses, including the doctor for the Grizzlies who had seen Danielle after she had sustained injuries during a fight with Michael, a friend who had seen her with a black eye, and a repair man who had repaired broken down doors at their residence more than once.

1:05:28 Their goal was obvious to show that Danielle was a battered woman and that Michael Redlick had a history of physical abuse. After a week of testimony, the trial finally came to a close. The jury was out for a total of four hours before coming back with their verdict. What do you think it was? I think she was found guilty. You are incorrect. She was found not guilty of second degree murder, but guilty of tampering with evidence. Not that I necessarily think that she was guilty, but I thought the jury you would find her guilty. Yeah. I actually thought the same thing before I found out the results as well. Well. I googled a picture of her during her testimony, and she looked sad in the picture.

1:06:12 Oh, she did look a lot of her testimony. Yeah. Danielle's sentencing hearing took place on August fifth for the tampering with evidence charge. Danielle was sentenced to time served plus a year of probation. At the hearing, Danielle's attorney presented the judge with six letters from character witnesses, including several members of a Christian ministry group at the jail where Danielle had been housed while awaiting trial. One read quote, Danielle has dreams of helping other women and ministering to the less fortunate. I believe Danielle has already paid a steep price and that she is eager and ready to begin a new life unquote. On the other hand, Danielle's daughter, Jaden, wrote a letter that was read in court. In part, it read quote the only reason I am not personally reading this statement is because I simply do not ever want to be in a room with Danielle ever. Again.

1:07:04 I refuse to call her mother because she was never a decent mother figure to me. My dad was no angel and definitely had flaws, but he was so kind, gentle, and he never laid a hand on a single person in my family unquote. Jaden went on to say that she and her younger brother still suffered from nightmares and trauma after their dad's killing. Quote, I have developed a fear of being murdered. I lost everything at once and it was broadcast to the world. We want to be left in peace. End quote. Danielle shook with sobs as this letter was read. It's just so sad. That is very sad. I wasn't able to find any information about what Danielle has been up to since her trial, or whether she has followed through on her dreams of helping other women and ministering to the less fortunate. I also wasn't able to find out anything about her children. I'm assuming that she ended up getting custody of Sawyer, who is still a miner. But I can't confirm that.

1:07:59 Jade so that she'd never seen her father lay a hand on her mother or anyone else for that matter. But we know that she was a victim of domestic violence. Yeah, we know that for sure. Jaden may not have witnessed, you know, her dad hitting her mom directly. She definitely witnessed them fighting or you know, getting into intense arguments, but we don't know if she didn't, you know, if she saw her dad lay a hand on her mom. And you know, she's young too, and she's obviously been through a lot and you know, supporting her dad here. So you know, I think you can take what she says with a little bit of a grain of salt. So I'm curious what you thought of the verdict, but also the fact that she was charged with second degree murder instead of manslaughter. So I looked up the definitions.

1:08:46 In Florida. Second degree murder involves killing someone without premeditation or planning, but with a depraved mind and no regard for human life. Voluntary manslaughter involves intentionally killing someone in the heat of passion, but without premeditation. Involuntary manslaughter is when the defendant had no intent to kill, but accidentally or inadvertently killed someone as a result of negligent, careless, or dangerous behavior. So I'm just curious, what do you do you think that she should have been charged with something different, and what do you think of the verdict? I guess in general, I. Don't believe you described the murder weapon it was. It was a long knife, like a long, thin knife, serrated.

1:09:27 It was like Ellen Greenberg when we did that case, and it was the cutcow knife when we actually happened to have that knife. Yeah, was it a knife like that? That's like a very sharp knife. I'll post a picture of it. It looks maybe similar to that. Longer than that, I think, but yeah, probably a little bit similar. The location of the Michael's wound in his shoulder area, it was. Like two inches from his armpit, is what I read. I didn't realize that that would be a fatal wound. Yeah, she stapped him once and it wasn't in a hard or you. Know, it was the vein. It was called the basilic vein that it severed, and yeah, I wouldn't have thought that was fatal either, And I think that's one of the things that helps Danielle in her defense because it was just one stab wound. It wasn't in a place where most people would normally think would be fatal. So that kind of says that she probably didn't intend to kill her.

1:10:21 Had she called nine to one one sooner, yeah, could his life had been spared. Yeah. I think those are the things that work against her, as just all the lies, all the time that went by, you know, the trying to clean up the blood, deleting the tab I mean, she did so many things that make her look guilty. Yeah, But at the same time, I do believe that she was a battered spouse. I think that he did hit her several times, and I think, you know that obviously the jury believed her that in that situation that she was in that night, her life was in danger, and I can't argue with the jury's verdict. I'm really torn on this case because I do think that she had anger issues. I think there's a lot of examples where she was drinking and like got arrested by the police and charged with disorderly conduct and things like that. So I think she definitely had a violent streak.

1:11:13 But at the same time, I do believe that Michael hit her several times. I'm sure it was more than once, and who knows if maybe her life was in danger that night. So I can't really disagree with the jury's verdict, but it still bothers me. I can't imagine stabbing someone like it's such a forceful motion, right, the movement that the force that you would have to use to get through, you know, your flesh, and I guess was probably just wearing a T shirt or something. Yeah, it's a very up close and personal way of killing someone, as opposed to with a gun or something like that where you're standing farther away. As my point is, maybe she was really scared for her life because she did, you know, stab them once and then allegedly left him, and I do kind of believe that's what happened.

1:12:00 Yeah, it sort of seems that way. I did on that topic though one I mentioned it earlier. But one really interesting thing I found is how often knives are foreshadowed. In this case. In the email that she wrote to him, she said, although my words may be cutting. Their only sounds a dull knife compared to the sharp, disloyal, deceiving, phony and never ending selfish knife you continue to twist in my back. In that same email, she mentions cutting several more times about not getting to be happy until someone has bled to death. The words bled to death are even underlined by her in a print out of the email that she had made, and then talking about the Romeo and Juliet story you know so many times so, and then Michael joking with his colleagues about as long as I hide the steak knives, everything will be fine.

1:12:47 So yeah, it makes me wonder if like Danielle had some sort of fixation with knives or something like that. So that makes me a little less likely to buy her story because it just seems like she talked about this a lot. Yeah, that is strange. Yeah, so you don't know what happened to Danielle. I don't know what happened after this. I mean, this was only two two and a half years ago that her trial ended. But I have not I was not able to track her down on social media or anything like that. I have one more question for you that I know our listeners are thinking about right now, why didn't she just divorce him? I mean, it's a great question. You know, I wish that I wish that she had chosen to divorce him.

1:13:28 She did file for divorce at one point, but you know, I think in these kind of toxic relationships, it's just they're so volatile, and we see it a lot with couples that break up, fight, get back together, break up again. And it's so hard because you're the relationship is not going to change unless you're getting intensive therapy and you're really working hard on it, which I think most people are not able to really do that. Yeah, exactly. I hope the kids, especially are okay in this situation. I feel so bad for both Jaden and Sawyer, and I hope they're getting the help that they need to process everything that they've been through. Well, to piggyback on what you're talking about, when Jaden's testimony was read during the sentencing hearing, and she was like, I would never I never want to be in the same room ass Danielle. Again, I don't call her mom to me that that means a lot.

1:14:22 It does. Yeah, she knew her mom and dad better than anyone else. And if she felt manipulated by her mom, I can only imagine what Michael felt, right, Yeah, I agree, but it sounds like Michael was also abusive. Right. It's really hard in these horrible marriages where both parties are so abusive verbally and physically. Yeah, it's a really horrible situation. And that's also why I can't really argue with the jury's verdict because he definitely was abusive, and you know, so who knows what actually happened that night. It's so hard for me to wrap my head around so many of these stories. And I know we're really lucky, and I don't take that for granted, even for a second, because I have seen bad marriages and domestic violence up close, and it's just so foreign to me.

1:15:10 Yeah, rest in peace, Michael. Well, thank you all so much for listening. If you are a regular listener of Love and Mary Kill, you know that we donate at least twenty five percent of our revenues from ADS and from our patron program every month to a different cause. Our December donation went to Saint Jude Children's Research Hospital, which is a great cause. Saint Jude is leading the way that the world understands, treats, and defeats childhood cancer and other life threatening diseases. We say it a lot, but without you listening, there would be no podcast and there would be no donations. In the year of twenty twenty four, we were proud to make over four thousand dollars in donations and we can't wait to see what the number will be in twenty twenty five.

1:15:58 Speaking of twenty twenty five, have you made any New Year's resolution? That's crazy that you and I have not had this conversation. I know, I think he's been afraid of me. Listener. They'll like only come in the room and like talk to me for like two minutes at a time. This is the longest I've spent in a room with you in over a week. Yeah. He just looked at me like an hour ago, panicked and said, do you think it's okay that we're in the same room. No, I really don't, because I still the thing is like I still have a fever, and we were trying not to record when I still had a fever. My fever's lower, but there's still a little bit of a fever that's hanging on there. Yeah, you'll be fine, Yes, So resolutions though, have you made any What. Are you implying that I need to change?

1:16:41 Not at all? Oh No, I haven't. No. I mean I've literally been like laying around and I really have what else? What else have you had to do other than think about it? I've watched so much Netflix it's it's embarrassing. I can't even tell you how because I don't really have like the attention span to like read too much. But anything you can recommend for our listeners, no. Because if they knew, like the trash TV I watched, they'd be. Like, oh my god, that's wrong with trash TV. Well, I'll say one show that has been a comfort show was a comfort show for me in twenty twenty four that I had never watched before was Ugly Betty And it was very slowly watching it and I finally finished, Yeah, and it was I thought it was a sweet, funny show.

1:17:23 Good. And I also watched Well we started Squid Game. Yep, that's season two. Yeah, And you saw a movie I saw No Sparatu. With our son and it was it was good if you like vampire movies. It was really well done, like from out of ten how whinny stars would you give it? I'd probably give it eight. Okay, I'm sorry, but I'm evading your question. My news resolution really the only one. Like last year, I did a really good job on my fitness journey. I thought I worked out most days. The peloton was I really we both really loved the peloton, have used it way more than we thought we would. Obviously haven't used it much recently. But my goal is to be more mindful of my time and to have a little more intent with things.

1:18:17 That's a very good goal. Yeah, how about you. Well, I have OKRs that I've set right if you work in the tech world, and OKR stands for objectives and key results, so it's a way to set measurable objectives. And I've set them only for the first half of the year because who knows what's going to happen. Aliens may invade and you know, oh they already have very possible. So my two OKRs are around physical fitness. Really, I know that's a shocker because I've never made that resolution before. And the other one, though, is to get our house into tip top shape. So I know I knew you'd be happy to hear about that. One because I know there have been a few things we've maybe I maybe neglected that need.

1:19:02 To be listener. We have a really we have a lovely house. Our house is it's newer, We've talked about it before. But there's some things with any house that just. Our cats have done their best to destroy it. Really no exaggeration like. They've done a lot of damage. They really have. But we need to get on those things. So I'm committed this year. It makes me really happy. I figured because I have like this, this is probably the one of the areas that we see the world differently. And I am a perfectionist, which I know is surprising in some ways. It's weird. It's weird because you're a perfectionist in some ways and I'm a perfectionist in some ways. And your perfection is more like you you're the podcast stuff. You do a great job like with editing and stuff, and my perfectionism is more with like cleaning and aesthetics and things like environment. Right, So that's one area where I think we have a different standard.

1:20:00 Yeah, well, you can rest assured that this is the year that we're gonna get the house on tiptop because it's in your okay, are it's in my okay? Are? Well, I'm not going to split hairs and talk about the time a couple of years ago when you said your goal was to declutter or get rid of things. Rid of at least things two things. What are you going to get rid of? Well, no, that's not my that's not my okayr this year oh. Okay, so the things that you were never never mind, never mind, it's all. We are very happy. Don't worry. No listeners are like, oh my god. They're fighting again. They're fighting again. They're gonna get mom and dad are going to get divorced. No, listener, We're in it for the long haul. I think. I think we've made it this far.

1:20:41 Well, if I survived this week, yeah, I hope. So I wanted to give a shout out to our sweet listener Alison, who sent our kiddies a toy. Yeah, and it's not even the first time that she has sent a present to our horrible cats who don't really deserve That was so thoughtful. Thank you much, so sweet, and thanks so much to all of you who sent Christmas cards. That was really nice to get those in the mail as well. Oh and a shout out to you for if you received a card from us. We had told people, if you send us your card, we'll send you one back. You hand wrote all the cards and sent them out. I did because I wasn't sick then, but I was getting ready for Christmas and I was a little stressed, and that was really nice for you to do that.

1:21:23 So thank you well for taking care of I appreciate all of our listeners, they're amazing well. We always love to hear from you, so drop us a line at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com, follow us on social media, consider supporting us on Patreon dot com, slash Lovemrykill. We have one tier five dollars a month for early ad free access and a monthly bonus episode. And until next time, don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife.

1:22:21 Compat