Oct. 20, 2025

Debbie and Anthony Pignataro - Part 1

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Dr. Anthony Pignataro was a Buffalo-area plastic surgeon with a taste for luxury and a reputation for confidence (some might say arrogance). He claimed to be an innovator, even creating a bizarre “snap-on hairpiece” that bolted directly to the skull. But beneath the image of success was a trail of questionable surgeries, mounting complaints, and growing chaos at home.

Listen to part 2 now on Patreon

Today's snack: Cinnamon pecan straws (thanks Teresa!)

Sources:

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Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina.

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If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years

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of marriage, it.

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Said, some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill.

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Hi, Tina, Hey Rich, How are you today?

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I'm great? How are you?

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I am doing good?

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Actually I'm lying. I'm really irritated because it's ninety degrees outside.

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I know we're.

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Recording this early because we're going on vacation. So it's

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October fourth, and I was told it was fall.

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It should not be ninety degrees. I'm October fourth in Michigan.

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It's crazy.

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I guess I'm gonna sell all my sweaters.

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You might as well. Yeah, it's disappointing because it's Michigan

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game day and I don't have all of my Michigan

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gear is like sweatshirts because it's usually sweatshirt weather.

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Yeah, so I think that you have had to wear Well,

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you have a Michigan T shirt some.

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Waint I just couldn't find it.

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But I don't think you've worn a Michigan sweatshirt yet

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this season because it's been really warm.

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I haven't had the opportunity.

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Right, Well, we could have worse problems. I guess true.

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If we sound a little bit different, that's because we're

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trying out some new microphones today. Exciting day here in

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the light Bulb Lab Love Mary Kill Studios. Yeah, we've

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got some fancy new microphones. Yeah, let us know what

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you think. I don't know if we're going to keep them.

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Why wouldn't we keep them? I can tell already that

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we sound more professional.

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I'm not sure if we want to sound more professional,

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but yeah.

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Oh, we don't want to sound more professional. I think

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I'm still gonna say idiotic. Thanks, I'm just going to

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sound a little better when I say them.

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Oh, I thought this meant you were no longer going to.

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Say we were laughing so hard when we were trying

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to do our intro because it did sound different to us.

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It sounded like we were being pretend podcasters. We still

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we've been doing this for three years. We still feel

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like we're not real professional podcast.

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I don't know what makes us feel that way.

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So mon Pa at the Homestead.

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Right before we go into today's case, I have three

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public apologies that I need to make public. Three three

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One I need to apologize to everyone for saying that

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Prue is no longer going to be on The Great

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British Faking Show next season. I said that in the

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last episode.

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Well, I said it because you told me. I guess

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I should be apologized, isn't that? It's it's getting a

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little scary and we're only at the beginning of AI news.

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I got duped by fake news, and I feel bad

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that I said that because apparently Prue has no intention

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of leaving.

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Super happy to hear that, because I love her. I

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think she's marvelous.

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Yeah, me too. Second, I need to apologize to the

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Detroit Tigers. When we recorded a couple episodes ago, I

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was really irritable because they lost, and it turns out

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they actually won their series and I was completely wrong

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about them.

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By the time this is released, you probably blushed in

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the playoffs. So I'm not sure if that public apology

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is necessary.

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I was pretty mean. But the third one is to

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you because the other night.

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Well, why does this need to be a public pology?

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I think this could just stay in our own house.

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I had. I had the opportunity to talk about it,

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and I chose not to because I didn't want to

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publicly shame you.

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Okay, never mind. No, the other night, we were sleeping

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and I was having a bad dream and I was

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flailing about, and apparently I.

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Hit you right well, I sweetly tried just to like,

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you know, like touch you, and hey, honey, you're okay,

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You're okay. Yeah, and you've punched me really pretty good

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in the eye, like you popped some pop some blood vessels.

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And I'm so sorry. I felt terrible about it.

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Okay, it's fine. I felt really bad for you because

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you were clearly upset, and I didn't know what you

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were upset about it.

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I have no idea what I was dreaming. But it

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wasn't good.

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It wasn't good. One thing I forgot to say in

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the last episode that we did, which was Nancy and

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Rob Kissel, that min and Connie were the heroes of

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the story. They were there, the nanny and the housekeeper.

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I forgot to mention that I just really admired the

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way that they really were there for the kids.

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And so you're doing a public apology to men and Connie.

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Well, every episode, I don't know if this happens to you,

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but every time there's always a couple of things that

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I forget to mention that I don't put a notes

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and I'm like, oh, I'll remember to say.

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That every time. Yeah, all right, well, would you like

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a snack?

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Sure?

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I'm very excited because we have a listener snack today.

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Our buddy Teresa sent us something.

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Teresa sent this from Louisiana. I believe this is from

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the Cane River Pecan Company, Cinnamon pecan straws.

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You just hit pecan, But.

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Yeah, these look really interesting. I don't I don't really

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know what they are cinnamon pecan.

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Straw Teresa is great and she also is a big baker,

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so a lot of times she sends me pictures of

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what she's baking.

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Okay, cool, would you like to try these?

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Absolutely?

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What did you think of these cinnamon pecan straws.

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I thought they were really good. Yeah, they're really interesting.

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Yeah, it was surprising. They were very different from what

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I was expecting.

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Just hearing the name, it's almost like a churo.

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Yeah yeah, I was thinking like a short bread cookie,

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but yeah, churo too, think a.

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Short bread If a short bread cookie and a churo

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had a baby, that's what that would be.

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Yeah. Really nice flavor though, really.

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Good of Texter. Thank you so much, Teresa.

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I love thank you. Today's case is a recommendation from Christy.

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Thank you Christy for the recommendation. Really interesting case. Patreon Christy, Yes, Patreon, Christy.

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We love Patreon, Christy. We do.

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A quick note. A lot of my research for this

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case came from a book by Anne Rule, which was

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a great book, and Rule is amazing as always. But

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the one thing I want to note is Ann Rule

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does use pseudonyms for a lot of her characters, and

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for some of them I wasn't able to find out

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real names. So I'm going to use the names that

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Ann Rule used in her book, and I'll just note

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fair not that. Okay, today's case is about a married couple,

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so it is a love Mary Kill case. But it's

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also about a doctor who is a really bad doctor.

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Okay.

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Every year in the United States, millions of people undergo

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cosmetic procedures. In fact, recent statistics show more than one

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point six million surgical cosmetic procedures are performed annually in

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the US, everything from liposuction and breast augmentation to facelifts

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and tummy tucks. On top of that, there are also

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millions of minimally invasive treatments like botox, fillers and chemical peels.

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For the vast majority of patients, the risks are very low.

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Complications such as infection, bleeding, or anesthesia issues can happen,

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but they're extremely rare compared to the enormous number of

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procedures performed safely. Cosmetic surgery has become so routine that

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many people think of it as little more than a

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tune up, a quick way to change something about their

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appearance with minimal risk, And that's why today's case is

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so shocking. We trust doctors with our lives, and we

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expect the system to protect us when something goes wrong,

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but sometimes that trust is misplaced.

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Well, I know that Anne Rule wrote the book that

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you read, so this case must be at least twenty

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years old.

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It is.

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I would be curious to see how many plastic surgeries

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took place twenty years ago versus how many take place today.

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I think it's much much higher today. I did a

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quick Google. Guess how much they're up from the year

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two thousand to today. Fifty percent, one hundred and fifteen percent.

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Oh wow, restlifts are up by eighty nine percent. Bodox

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lifts are up two hundred and fifty two percent, lower

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body lifts three thousand, nine hundred seventy three percent, Wow,

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upper arm list four nine hundred and fifty nine percent.

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So those must have been procedures that essentially didn't exist.

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I'm not even sure what those Well.

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Let me start by talking about the married couple at

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the heart of this case. It was May of nineteen

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ninety nine when forty one year old Debbie Pignataro first

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felt something was terribly wrong. What began as a sharp,

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excruciating abdominal pain sent her rushing to the er, with

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her husband, Anthony at her side. Doctors thought it was pancreatitis,

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a painful but treatable condition. When her pain eased, they

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sent her home, hoping it was nothing more. Debbie tried

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to convince herself the doctors were right. It could be

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that stress was a contributor, and she had plenty of that.

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The past few years had been brutal. A boding accident

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had left her with chronic pain and multiple neck injuries.

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Her marriage to Anthony had been on shaky ground, with

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their problems only piling up, and she had stood loyally

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by him as he faced professional scandals and legal problems

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as a physician. But soon after leaving the hospital, Debbie's

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health took a terrifying turn. Instead of improving, she declined rapidly.

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Some days she couldn't lift her from the pillow, other

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days she could barely stand. Her arms and legs swung

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wildly between agonizing pain and total numbness. Her body was

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failing her piece by piece, and baffled doctors scrambled to

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find an answer before whatever was attacking Debbie Pignataro claimed

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her life. Deborah Rago was born in July of nineteen

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fifty seven in Erie County, New York. Her father, Frank,

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worked construction, while her mother, Caroline, picked up shifts at

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Krasner's women's clothing store. Debbie had an older brother, Carmine,

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and together they made up a close knit, blue collar

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family living in the Buffalo suburbs. Life shifted suddenly when

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Frank was just thirty eight years old. He suffered a

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massive heart attack that forced him to leave construction behind.

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From then on, he stayed home to care for Debbie,

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while Caroline shouldered the family's income by working full time

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at the clothing store. By then, Carmine had already moved out,

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so it was just Debbie and her parents. Debbie pitched

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in as soon as she could. At sixteen, she started working,

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first at the mall and later as a pharmacy technician.

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Even after finishing high school, she stayed home, balancing work

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while helping her parents and saving toward the future. By

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the summer of nineteen seventy eight, Debbie was twenty one.

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One night, she and her friends headed out to the

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Lone Star, a popular local spot for disco dancing. Pulling

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into the parking lot, Debbie cut the wheel too hard

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and scraped the side of her car against a wall. Mortified,

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she got out to inspect the damage and found herself

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being watched. A tall young man stood nearby, laughing at

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the mishap with a grin, he teased, you must have

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missed the wall because you were too busy looking at me.

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His name was Anthony Pignataro. Debbie was instantly struck. At

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six feet tall, with a head of dark hair and sharp,

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classic features, he looked like he could have stepped off

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a movie screen. She thought to herself that he was

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handsome enough to have caused the accident just by standing there,

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But there was a catch. Anthony was already dating Karen,

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an acquaintance of Debbie's, so for the moment he was

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off limits. Still, Debbie kept running into him on nights

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out with her friends, and when he finally asked her

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to dance, she couldn't resist. Boldly, she leaned in and said,

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I wish I'd met you before Karen did. Anthony smiled,

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and that night he broke up with Karen.

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Wow, was that their first meeting the night of the accident?

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Yes, I believe it was. Soon after he broke up

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with Karen, he asked Debbie out. Their first date was

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to see the new hit movie Grease. From there they

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were inseparable, dancing, going on picnics, catching concerts, spending weekends

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at the beach. Debbie had found her movie star, and

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she was certain this was the start of her happily

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ever after.

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Greece would be a really good first date movie well

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00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:46.360
you met, Yeah, I think it would put you in

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00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:49.120
a really good mood and totally'd be dancing in your seat.

242
00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:52.080
Well, in the story like, they met during the summertime

243
00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:54.039
and he was going to be going back to college

244
00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:56.039
in another month or so, so it kind of ties

245
00:11:56.039 --> 00:11:58.879
into the whole summer loven Thing of Greece as well.

246
00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:02.679
Anthony Ignataro was born in May of nineteen fifty eight.

247
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Unlike Debbie's modest, blue collar upbringing, Anthony grew up surrounded

248
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by wealth and privilege. His father, Ralph, was a well

249
00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:13.200
known surgeon in the Buffalo area, and his mother, Lena

250
00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:17.519
doated on him. Anthony and his siblings, older sister Antoinette

251
00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:21.000
and younger brothers Ralph Junior and Stephen, enjoyed the best

252
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of everything, including an exclusive private school education. When Anthony

253
00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:28.240
first met Debbie, he was home on summer break before

254
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starting his junior year at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania, where

255
00:12:32.120 --> 00:12:35.240
he was majoring in mathematics. By the end of that summer,

256
00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:38.639
the two were inseparable. Debbie worried that their romance might

257
00:12:38.679 --> 00:12:42.039
fade when Anthony returned to school, but it didn't. They

258
00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:44.679
talked on the phone several times a week, and Anthony

259
00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:46.840
often made the five and a half hour drive home

260
00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:49.759
on weekends. For the next two years, they kept the

261
00:12:49.799 --> 00:12:54.159
long distance relationship alive. In May nineteen eighty, Debbie proudly

262
00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:57.919
stood with Anthony's parents as he graduated from Lehigh. The

263
00:12:57.960 --> 00:12:59.960
couple was in love and knew they wanted to make

264
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but Anthony insisted on waiting until he landed on a career.

265
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He was ambitious, even grandiose, convinced that he was destined

266
00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:10.799
for something big. For a while, he toyed with the

267
00:13:10.840 --> 00:13:14.679
idea of computer science, but ultimately he chose to follow

268
00:13:14.679 --> 00:13:19.080
in his father's footsteps and pursue medicine. Anthony idolized his dad,

269
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and he loved the idea of working side by side

270
00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:24.919
with him. One day, confident in his future, Anthony applied

271
00:13:24.919 --> 00:13:27.039
to some of the top medical schools in the country.

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In his mind, it wasn't a question of if he'd

273
00:13:29.879 --> 00:13:33.960
be accepted, but which elite program he'd choose. He barely

274
00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:37.039
studied for the MCAT, assuming his family name and natural

275
00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:40.559
intelligence would be enough. They weren't. One by one, the

276
00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:45.600
rejections rolled in Harvard Columbia Johns Hopkins none wanted him.

277
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His scores simply weren't good enough. In the end, the

278
00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:52.399
only school that accepted him was the San Juan Bautista

279
00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:56.080
School of Medicine in Puerto Rico, a non accredited program

280
00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:59.519
with a far less rigorous reputation. For Anthony, who had

281
00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:03.159
always seen himself as destined for prestige. It was an

282
00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:06.279
embarrassing blow, but instead of taking it as a lesson

283
00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:09.879
in humility, it would only deepen his drive to look successful,

284
00:14:10.159 --> 00:14:11.279
no matter what the cost.

285
00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:14.960
Debbie understood that Anthony's decision to become a doctor meant

286
00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:17.960
their life together would be on hold for years, but

287
00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:21.879
she was committed. She believed in his big dreams, and

288
00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:25.200
she was willing to wait. While Anthony left for Puerto

289
00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:28.879
Rico to begin medical school, Debbie stayed in Buffalo, working

290
00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:33.399
and supporting herself, faithful to him across the distance. Anthony's

291
00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:37.440
program wasn't easy. The classes were all taught in Spanish,

292
00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:41.200
so he had to learn the language quickly. To his credit,

293
00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:43.879
he picked it up fast, and within a short time

294
00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:48.000
he was fluent. Their long distance relationship stretched on for

295
00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:51.720
nearly eight years before they finally married in June of

296
00:14:51.799 --> 00:14:55.720
nineteen eighty five. Debbie was twenty eight, Anthony twenty seven.

297
00:14:56.279 --> 00:14:59.559
The wedding took place at Saint Bonaventure's Catholic Church with

298
00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:02.519
three hu ard fifty friends and family in attendance. The

299
00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:06.240
reception was held at the prestigious Wanaka Country Club, where

300
00:15:06.279 --> 00:15:10.120
the Pignaitaro family were members. That night, Anthony gave a

301
00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:13.360
glowing toast to his own father, then he turned his

302
00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:16.840
attention to Debbie's father, Frank. We don't know exactly what

303
00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:20.240
he said, but it was intended as humor and instead

304
00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:24.519
landed as demeaning. Debbi watched her father try to laugh

305
00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:28.799
it off his embarrassment plane, and her heart sank. It

306
00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:32.559
was a small moment, but revealing a glimpse of Anthony's

307
00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:35.720
lack of tact and of how easily he could wound

308
00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:39.720
others without even seeming to notice. The warning signs didn't

309
00:15:39.799 --> 00:15:43.559
end there. On their honeymoon, a two week cruise, Anthony

310
00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:47.080
again revealed an uglier side. While dining one evening with

311
00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:50.759
another couple who happened to be Jewish, he began making loud,

312
00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:54.720
cruel jokes about Jews. Offended, the couple asked to be

313
00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:58.559
moved to another table. Debbi was troubled, even disturbed, by

314
00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:02.519
his behavior, but she loved him, and, like so many newlyweds,

315
00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:05.480
determined to make their marriage work. She tried to convince

316
00:16:05.480 --> 00:16:09.240
herself to accept the bad along with the good. Anthony's

317
00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:12.279
father had strong connections in the medical community, and he

318
00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:15.080
used them to secure a residency for his son at

319
00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:19.120
Saint Agnes Hospital in Baltimore. It was a saddleite hospital

320
00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:23.799
within the prestigious Johns Hopkins Health System, a valuable opportunity

321
00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:26.720
Anthony might not have gotten on his own, So the

322
00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:29.919
couple moved to Baltimore, where Anthony began his two year

323
00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:34.519
program in general surgery. Debbie found work as an administrative

324
00:16:34.519 --> 00:16:38.000
assistant in a plastic surgeon's office. Debbie was eager to

325
00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:40.960
start a family. In the spring of nineteen eighty six,

326
00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:44.960
she became pregnant, but heartbreak followed when she miscarried. Early on.

327
00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:49.080
Anthony was supportive, reassuring her that they would try again,

328
00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:52.159
and by late summer, she was pregnant once more. This

329
00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:56.240
time the pregnancies seemed healthy, but as her due date approached,

330
00:16:56.679 --> 00:16:59.919
she endured a terrifying ordeal. The neighborhood where the Pa

331
00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:03.879
Nataro's rented an apartment wasn't the safest. One night, while

332
00:17:03.879 --> 00:17:07.079
Anthony was at the hospital, Debbie woke to strange noises

333
00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:11.039
outside the sliding glass doors. The latch had never worked properly,

334
00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:14.880
and before she could react, the door slid open. A

335
00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:19.759
naked man stumbled into her living room babbling incoherently. Debbie's

336
00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:23.720
heart pounded. She remembered Anthony had bought a handgun. She

337
00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:26.880
retrieved it, steadied herself, and pointed it at the intruder

338
00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:30.160
while dialing nine poet one. Somehow she managed to hold

339
00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:33.559
the drug addled man at gunpoint until police arrived and

340
00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:34.559
arrested him.

341
00:17:34.759 --> 00:17:37.599
It's a really terrifying scenario, isn't it? Like just so

342
00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:41.720
scary having a naked man just crazily babbling in your

343
00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:42.279
living room.

344
00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:45.400
He just randomly opened their door. He just found an

345
00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:49.160
open door somehow. Yeah, that's crazy. Just weeks later, in

346
00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:51.920
April nineteen eighty seven, Debbie gave birth to a healthy

347
00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:56.839
baby boy. They named him Rafael Frank Pignataro, honoring both

348
00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:00.559
of their fathers. Everyone would simply call him Ralph, No

349
00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:04.319
one called him Ralphie. As Anthony neared the end of

350
00:18:04.359 --> 00:18:07.200
his two year residency at Saint Agnes, he hoped to

351
00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:10.039
stay on for a third year, but he was blindsided

352
00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:13.720
when the hospital chose to not renew his contract. By then,

353
00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:16.319
it was too late to apply elsewhere, so the couple

354
00:18:16.359 --> 00:18:20.000
decided to move back to Buffalo and regroup. How many

355
00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:23.079
years is a residency? Does it depend on your area

356
00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:23.960
of study?

357
00:18:24.039 --> 00:18:26.440
Yeah, I think it can vary. From what I've read,

358
00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:28.920
is between like three and seven years, just depending on

359
00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:30.079
what you're studying.

360
00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:32.799
Okay. In the weeks leading up to the move, Debbie

361
00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:37.000
began noticing odd phone calls to their apartment. Whenever she answered,

362
00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:40.039
the caller immediately hung up. At first, she brushed it

363
00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:42.720
off as a wrong number or prank, but on their

364
00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:46.519
very last night in Baltimore, the phone ring again. This time,

365
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:50.160
when Debbi picked up, a woman's voice spoke. Her words

366
00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:53.079
were cold and direct. Go look in the back seat

367
00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:56.720
of your car. Debbie rushed outside. In her back seat,

368
00:18:57.039 --> 00:19:00.440
she found a cassette tape, a letter, and a Christmas card.

369
00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:04.039
She pressed play on the tape recorder and froze. It

370
00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:08.039
was Anthony's voice. He was speaking intimately with another woman.

371
00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:12.519
The truth was undeniable. Furious, Debbie called Anthony at the

372
00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:16.200
hospital and demanded he come home immediately. When he walked

373
00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:19.680
through the door, her rage boiled over. She screamed, cried,

374
00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:23.960
even hid him, threatening to take their baby and leave. Anthony, panicked,

375
00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:27.599
phoned Debby's father. She wants to leave me, he pleaded.

376
00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:30.839
She wants to take the baby. Frank asked to speak

377
00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:33.880
to his daughter. Debbie, still in tears, told him the truth.

378
00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:39.319
Anthony had been unfaithful. Frank's advice was calm but firm. Debbie,

379
00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:43.119
listen to me. You forgive once, now hang up and

380
00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:47.640
go make your marriage work. Anthony seized on that lifeline.

381
00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:51.240
He was contrite, begging for another chance. He swore the

382
00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:54.319
affair meant nothing, just to fling with the crazy girl.

383
00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:57.839
He promised it was over. He promised he loved Debbie

384
00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:00.519
and the baby. He promised there would no never be

385
00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:04.640
anyone else, and Debbie, clinging to hope, chose to forgive

386
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:08.680
him once, just once. They had a new baby. They

387
00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:11.359
were heading home to Buffalo, and she wanted to believe

388
00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:13.000
their family still had a future.

389
00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:15.480
What do you think about that advice from Debbie's dad?

390
00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:19.200
Oh gosh, it's so hard it is. I mean, once

391
00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:22.200
it she had always a cheat, right. It's kind of

392
00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:25.599
odd too that the woman went to those lengths too to,

393
00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:29.079
you know, make a morning and put it in her car.

394
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:31.720
I never learned anything more about this woman that he

395
00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:33.640
had an affair with, but it must have been something

396
00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:36.000
to do with him moving back to Buffalo. Maybe she

397
00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:39.279
was angry and decided to blow the whistle on him.

398
00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:41.599
But yeah, that is a very odd way to find

399
00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:43.000
out your husband's having an affair.

400
00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:45.359
Well, it seems like maybe it was in an intense

401
00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:47.880
fair too, you know, it could be. Yeah, she went

402
00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:51.279
to those lengths, right, we'll be back. After a break.

403
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:00.920
Back in Buffalo, Anthony took a job at an emergency

404
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:03.240
walk in clinic to fill the year before he could

405
00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:07.440
land another residency program. Around this time, he also began writing.

406
00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:11.319
It wasn't exactly a journal or a memoir or even fiction,

407
00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:14.599
though it contained elements of all three. He titled it

408
00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:18.680
m D. Mass Destruction, which is a very strange name.

409
00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:24.039
Page after page celebrated his supposed brilliance and accomplishments in medicine.

410
00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:27.240
In some passages, he even slipped into the third person,

411
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:30.759
as if Debbie or someone else were writing glowing tributes

412
00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:33.680
to him. But make no mistake, every word came from

413
00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:37.559
Anthony Pignataro's own mind. Here's a quick excerpt to give

414
00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:41.480
you a glimpse into Anthony's mind. I honestly believe that

415
00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:46.000
Anthony is the Galileo of the twentieth century Galileo the

416
00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:49.680
sixteenth century Italian physician and scientist was banished for his

417
00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:53.720
forward thinking and teachings. Pope John Paul two pardoned Galileo

418
00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:56.599
in nineteen seventy nine, three hundred forty two years later.

419
00:21:57.039 --> 00:21:59.640
I do hope Anthony does not have to wait that long.

420
00:22:00.279 --> 00:22:03.920
Boy, How do you have this writing? It wasn't published

421
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:04.400
or anything.

422
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:07.240
No, it was never published, but it was. We'll get

423
00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:09.920
into it later. It was found later. We'll share a

424
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:13.200
couple more excerpts later. But suffice it to say, Anthony's

425
00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:17.319
fixation seemed less about reflection and more about self worship.

426
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:20.920
For Debbie, that year back in Buffalo was brutal. Still

427
00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:24.759
reeling from Anthony's affair, she suffered a devastating personal loss

428
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:28.559
when her father, Frank, died of congestive heart failure in November.

429
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:31.759
He had always been her rock, and suddenly he was gone.

430
00:22:32.200 --> 00:22:35.559
Not long after, Debbie became pregnant again. The couple dared

431
00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:38.000
to hope for a new beginning, but when their baby

432
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:41.519
girl was born in June nineteen eighty eight, doctors discovered

433
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:44.200
the unthinkable and inoperable brain tumor.

434
00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:45.839
Oh that's so sad.

435
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:49.680
The baby couldn't survive without life support. Debbie and Anthony

436
00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:53.559
faced the most heart wrenching decision any parent could confront. Together,

437
00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:56.839
they said goodbye to their daughter. While Debbie was still

438
00:22:56.839 --> 00:22:59.640
recovering from her sea section and mourning the loss of

439
00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:03.119
her baby, Anthony was already moving forward. He had been

440
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:07.200
accepted into a new residency program at Georgetown University Medical

441
00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:10.359
School in Washington, d C. In the summer of nineteen

442
00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:13.680
eighty eight, he left Buffalo to get settled, while Debbie

443
00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:16.519
stayed behind with one year old Ralph. She and the

444
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:20.359
baby joined him later that July, but once reunited, Debbie

445
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:24.960
began noticing new and troubling patterns. Anthony's criticism turned on her.

446
00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:28.480
Anthony had always taken great pride in his appearance. He

447
00:23:28.599 --> 00:23:33.440
never missed a workout, always kept himself lean and muscular. Debbie, meanwhile,

448
00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:36.559
had endured three pregnancies in just a few years, two

449
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:39.960
of them ending in loss. Her body was healing, still

450
00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:43.400
carrying the weight of grief. To Anthony, it wasn't good enough.

451
00:23:43.880 --> 00:23:47.359
He started picking at her, constantly belittling her looks. Have

452
00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:49.640
you looked at yourself in the mirror? He would sneer,

453
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:51.640
Do you think I want to be with someone who

454
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.319
looks like that. Debbie tried to brush it off, but

455
00:23:54.359 --> 00:23:57.920
the words cut deep. She began dieting, working hard to

456
00:23:57.960 --> 00:24:02.000
meet his impossible standards for his approval. But no matter

457
00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:05.640
what she did, nothing was enough. Anthony was slowly chipping

458
00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:08.839
away at her confidence and her sense of self. What

459
00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:11.119
do you think about Anthony Pignaitaro so far?

460
00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:15.000
I don't think I like him very much. I really

461
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:19.720
hate when men try to make women feel bad about

462
00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:22.599
their bodies. Yeah, you and I have been through some

463
00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:26.200
really hard things. I don't want to go into details here,

464
00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:30.640
and you were always so supportive of me when I

465
00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:33.440
was going through a hard time, And it just is

466
00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:37.359
really hard when you know men are so unsupportive. Yeah,

467
00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:39.000
you can't see that their wife is in a lot

468
00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:41.680
of pain. Yea, And that's just not okay.

469
00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:47.200
Correct. At Georgetown, Anthony chose to specialize in odo laeryngology,

470
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:51.200
ear nose and throat medicine. He also rotated through plastic

471
00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:55.200
and cosmetic surgery and found himself intrigued by the possibilities there.

472
00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:58.559
But if Anthony was gaining skills, he wasn't gaining many

473
00:24:58.599 --> 00:25:02.799
friends among his colleagues. He quickly developed a reputation for arrogance.

474
00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:05.720
He wasn't a team player. He seemed to care only

475
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:09.279
about himself. That attitude boiled over On New Year's Eve

476
00:25:09.400 --> 00:25:12.400
nineteen eighty eight, Anthony was scheduled to be on call

477
00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:15.640
at the hospital, but instead he went out drinking. When

478
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:18.640
word of his drunken night at a bar reached his supervisors,

479
00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:22.519
he was chastised severely. Dismissal from the program was on

480
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:25.680
the table, but ultimately they let him stay for now.

481
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:29.359
Wow. I mean that's got to be a big no no, right.

482
00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:32.599
Yeah, absolutely, I'm a little surprised he wasn't dismissed immediately

483
00:25:32.680 --> 00:25:36.079
for that. That seems like a really bad violation of policy.

484
00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:39.799
In the meantime, life at home brought new anxieties and

485
00:25:39.880 --> 00:25:43.039
new hope. In early nineteen eighty nine, Debbie learned she

486
00:25:43.119 --> 00:25:46.839
was pregnant again. After everything she had endured, she was nervous,

487
00:25:46.920 --> 00:25:50.359
bracing herself for the worst, but that October her fears

488
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:52.960
gave way to joy. She gave birth to a healthy

489
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:56.799
baby girl. They named her Lauren. With Ralph and Lauren,

490
00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:59.880
Debbie felt the family was complete. A few years later,

491
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:02.599
they would even add a dog, Polo to the mix.

492
00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:06.000
You get the joke. Polo Ralph and Lauren are their

493
00:26:06.039 --> 00:26:10.279
two kids spelled like Ralph Loren. I'm not sure if

494
00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:12.359
that was intentional, but I think when they named the dog.

495
00:26:12.200 --> 00:26:14.440
Polo, I'm surprised you got that, my friend.

496
00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:17.799
I think Annroll maybe pointed it out to me. But

497
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:22.799
Anthony's frustrations didn't ease As his residency continued. He grew

498
00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:26.960
increasingly bitter. He complained constantly to Debbie, and he vented

499
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:29.640
in his journal about not being treated with the respect

500
00:26:29.640 --> 00:26:32.799
that he deserved in his mind, no one around him

501
00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:34.960
recognized his talent or brilliance.

502
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:37.960
Oh wow, so he's a textbook narcissist.

503
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:40.839
Yes, absolutely. If you look up narcissist in the dictionary,

504
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:42.480
I think his pictures should be there.

505
00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:44.640
There's probably a lot of pictures there.

506
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:48.079
Yeah, I'm sure there are. Maybe out of frustration, or

507
00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:50.960
maybe because he sensed he was on thin ice in DC,

508
00:26:51.400 --> 00:26:54.519
Anthony secured a new residency, this time it was in

509
00:26:54.519 --> 00:26:59.759
Philadelphia at Thomas Jefferson University Medical Center. In June nineteen ninety,

510
00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:02.799
the Pignataros packed up and moved to the Philly suburbs.

511
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:06.519
But a change of scenery didn't change Anthony just like before,

512
00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:09.440
he rubbed his colleagues the wrong way. They saw the

513
00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:13.880
same arrogance, the same all about me attitude. Anthony dismissed

514
00:27:13.880 --> 00:27:17.119
it all as jealousy. In his mind. They resented him

515
00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:19.920
for entering the program at a senior level and for

516
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:25.000
his obvious brilliance. He clashed constantly with coworkers, but oddly enough,

517
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:28.440
patients liked him. Anthony had charisma, and he could turn

518
00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:31.759
on the bedside charm when it mattered. At home, that

519
00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:35.160
charm was becoming harder and harder to find. Debbie began

520
00:27:35.240 --> 00:27:38.559
to dread social outings with the other residents and their spouses.

521
00:27:39.000 --> 00:27:42.160
Anthony could always be counted on to say something offensive

522
00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:45.240
or cruel, only to wave it off later as a joke,

523
00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:48.079
and he never let up on his criticism of Debbie.

524
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:51.079
He called her fat, He accused her of holding him back.

525
00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:55.279
He expected perfection. He made time to stay in peak conditions,

526
00:27:55.400 --> 00:27:59.000
so why couldn't she. Meanwhile, Debbie found work again at

527
00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:02.720
a plastic surgeon's office. She hated leaving Ralph and Lauren

528
00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:06.759
in daycare, but the family needed the extra income. Residents

529
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:10.279
were paid but modestly, the equivalent of about forty five

530
00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:14.319
to sixty thousand dollars a year. Debbie's job had a perk.

531
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:18.480
Employees got a steep discount on procedures. Debbie had always

532
00:28:18.519 --> 00:28:21.519
disliked her nose, so she decided to have it fixed.

533
00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:26.240
The results thrilled her, and surprisingly Anthony too. He even

534
00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:29.799
decided to undergo a nose job himself. But what concerned

535
00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:32.240
him more than his nose was something harder to fix,

536
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:34.079
his rapidly thinning hair.

537
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:38.559
So, because you said he was so devastatingly handsome, I

538
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:42.079
did look up pictures of Anthony, and it was a

539
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:46.240
little confusing to me because his hair in some pictures

540
00:28:46.359 --> 00:28:49.640
is like big and bushy, and in other it seems

541
00:28:49.640 --> 00:28:50.640
to have disappeared.

542
00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:53.359
Yeah, we'll talk a lot more about Anthony's hair.

543
00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:56.519
I have great empathy for any man that is losing

544
00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:59.119
his hair. Though, I have to say you were blessed.

545
00:28:59.240 --> 00:29:02.160
I was blessed. At the end of his first year

546
00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:06.519
in the Thomas Jefferson Residency program, Anthony received his evaluation

547
00:29:06.920 --> 00:29:10.559
and it was not good. In fact, it was damning.

548
00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:14.039
His peers did not hold back. One wrote simply put,

549
00:29:14.359 --> 00:29:19.279
he is unreliable, poorly informed, dishonest, and dangerous. Do not

550
00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:24.480
rehire the responsibility is too great, the risks innumerable. I

551
00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:28.680
fear that lives truly are at stake. Another added, I

552
00:29:28.759 --> 00:29:32.960
find him to be dishonest, manipulative, and conniving. He has

553
00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:37.599
demonstrated a lack of fundamental medical knowledge. His dishonesty and

554
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:41.680
lack of medical knowledge, combined with his arrogance, makes him dangerous.

555
00:29:42.519 --> 00:29:46.319
Residents in ODO Laryngology were rated on a scale of

556
00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:48.960
one to five. A score of four or higher was

557
00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:53.039
expected to continue in the program. Anthony's overall rating was

558
00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:57.119
two point four, nowhere near good enough. So the reviews

559
00:29:57.160 --> 00:29:59.720
that you had me read there said that he was

560
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:02.599
dis dishonest. Yeah, do you know what he was dishonest about?

561
00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:05.480
Is that like dishonest about patience or.

562
00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:08.599
Just I don't know specific examples, but yes, I think

563
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:11.200
he was just dishonest, like if something went wrong in

564
00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:15.119
a procedure, he might lie about it or cover it up.

565
00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:18.720
Once again, Anthony would not be invited back for a

566
00:30:18.759 --> 00:30:22.839
second year of residency, and worse, he was now ineligible

567
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:27.119
to set for the American Board of ODO Laryngology examinations.

568
00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:31.200
He was officially an MD, but without board certification, his

569
00:30:31.279 --> 00:30:35.240
career prospects were grim, hospitals would be reluctant, if not

570
00:30:35.559 --> 00:30:39.319
outright unwilling to grant him privileges. For a man who

571
00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:42.319
saw himself as destined for a prestige, it was an

572
00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:47.519
inauspicious start to doctor Anthony Pignataro's medical career. I feel

573
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:50.839
like I have so much knowledge because we've been watching

574
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:53.359
The Pit. Yes, Like I really feel like I get

575
00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:54.440
a feeling for all of this.

576
00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:57.039
Well, yeah, when I read he wasn't a team player,

577
00:30:57.119 --> 00:30:58.680
one of the comments I think was he's not a

578
00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:00.240
team player. I was like, that was ray after we

579
00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:03.000
watch an episode of The Pit where doctor Robbie was

580
00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:05.400
lecturing someone about the importance of being a team player.

581
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:09.440
As Yeah, the family returned to Buffalo. Anthony was finished

582
00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:13.799
with residency programs. He could legally practice medicine, but without

583
00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:17.960
board certification, his options were limited. It didn't stop him

584
00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:21.920
from stretching the truth on hospital applications. Anthony claimed he

585
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:25.680
was eligible to set for ODO laryngology aboards, a lie

586
00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:29.880
that was easy to disprove. Hospitals weren't fold. You want

587
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:31.759
me to say that word as much as possible, don't you?

588
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:32.480
I do yes.

589
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:36.880
Instead, Anthony found work with an elderly NT physician who

590
00:31:36.920 --> 00:31:40.119
was struggling with health issues and needed part time help.

591
00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:42.680
Anthony picked up a couple of days a week, just

592
00:31:42.799 --> 00:31:44.960
enough to make some money while he worked on a

593
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:49.680
bigger plan starting his own NT practice in West Seneca.

594
00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:52.359
He leased office space and took out a loan to

595
00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:56.839
remodel it. His vision went beyond exam rooms. Anthony wanted

596
00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:59.680
an operating room in the basement where he could perform

597
00:31:59.799 --> 00:32:04.519
soies himself. No hospitals, no oversight, no need to rely

598
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:08.200
on privileges he couldn't get anyway. At the time, Debbie

599
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:10.759
didn't think much of it, but in hindsight, the idea

600
00:32:10.839 --> 00:32:15.000
of major surgeries happening in a private office basement was

601
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:18.160
more than a little unsettling. I mean, I'll say.

602
00:32:18.200 --> 00:32:19.279
Yeah, very unsettling.

603
00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:22.960
Debbie, ever supportive, handled the books and paperwork to get

604
00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:26.200
the practice off the ground. Meanwhile, the family moved in

605
00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:29.599
with Anthony's parents while the new three story duplex was

606
00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:32.680
built on a lot gifted by his father. Debbie knew

607
00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:36.759
about Anthony's career stumbles, but she still felt optimistic. They

608
00:32:36.759 --> 00:32:41.279
were home, back near family. Anthony was launching his own practice.

609
00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:43.759
She believed in his skills as a doctor, and to

610
00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:47.400
her it felt like their life together was finally beginning.

611
00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:51.599
Anthony's dad was a surgeon. He was, and initially Anthony

612
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:54.400
wanted to work with his father, so that never happened.

613
00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:57.079
Well, he had dreams of, you know, working at hospitals

614
00:32:57.079 --> 00:32:58.359
with his dad. I don't know if he wanted to

615
00:32:58.359 --> 00:33:01.319
work directly with his father, but he Yeah, he definitely

616
00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:03.039
had dreams of them being colleagues.

617
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:06.319
I guess so his dad didn't know that he was

618
00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:10.839
kind of fumbling around and really didn't have his legs yet.

619
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:13.119
I mean, he must have known that he got dismissed

620
00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:16.880
from multiple residency programs, But I think his family had

621
00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:19.319
kind of rose colored glasses when it came to Anthony,

622
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:20.559
like he could do no wrong.

623
00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:24.480
Because Anthony was working under an older, well respected E

624
00:33:24.680 --> 00:33:28.200
and T doctor, he was able to secure conditional operating

625
00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:32.279
privileges at a couple of Buffalo area hospitals despite not

626
00:33:32.440 --> 00:33:36.680
being board certified. That's bananas to me. So I thought

627
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:40.799
doctors needed literally thousands of hours in an operating room

628
00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:42.279
before they could perform a surgery on.

629
00:33:42.279 --> 00:33:44.240
This This whole story is kind of shocking to me

630
00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:47.559
that there wasn't more oversight. I think it's gotten better

631
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:50.200
since this story took place, and I'll talk a little

632
00:33:50.279 --> 00:33:53.000
bit about that later, but it is surprising that there

633
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:57.039
aren't more controls in place to stop a bad surgeon

634
00:33:57.119 --> 00:33:59.519
from getting through slipping through the cracks.

635
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:02.720
In August nineteen ninety four, he operated on a thirty

636
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:06.319
year old man with a deviated septum. On paper, it

637
00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:09.840
was a fairly low risk procedure, but surgeons know there

638
00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:13.159
is a danger. Just a paper thin bone separates the

639
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:16.920
nasal passages from the brain. If that bone is fractured,

640
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:22.280
cerebral spinal fluid can leak, leading to brain abscesses, meningitis,

641
00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:28.440
even nerve damage. Precision and experience are crucial. During Anthony's operation,

642
00:34:28.840 --> 00:34:32.719
he perforated the bone, the patient's spinal fluid leaked into

643
00:34:32.760 --> 00:34:37.320
his nasal passages. Instead of addressing it, Anthony simply sent

644
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:41.440
the man home By sheer luck. The patient healed without complications,

645
00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:44.559
but when a senior E and T reviewed the case,

646
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:48.079
his report was critical and blunt. The very next day,

647
00:34:48.199 --> 00:34:52.559
Anthony's hospital privileges were revoked. At another hospital where he

648
00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:56.159
still had access, Anthony performed surgery on a seventy one

649
00:34:56.199 --> 00:35:00.800
year old man with a laryngeal tumor, another routine procedure,

650
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:05.159
but this time the patient died. A hospital board investigated

651
00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:09.440
and first restricted Anthony's privileges, then allowed them to expire

652
00:35:09.559 --> 00:35:13.760
without renewal. Now Anthony had no hospitals where he could operate.

653
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:17.000
For most doctors, this might have been a moment of reckoning.

654
00:35:17.320 --> 00:35:20.239
For Anthony, it was an excuse to lash out. He

655
00:35:20.280 --> 00:35:23.519
blamed others. Convinced he was a victim of a vendetta,

656
00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:28.320
he sued Thomas Jefferson Hospital, claiming they had conspired to

657
00:35:28.360 --> 00:35:32.159
block him from board certification. A doctor was appointed as

658
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:35.079
an arbiter in the case. She interviewed those who had

659
00:35:35.079 --> 00:35:39.519
worked with Anthony in situations like this. Physicians usually closed

660
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:42.719
ranks to protect their own, but not this time. Her

661
00:35:42.760 --> 00:35:48.000
final report was scathing. She concluded Anthony was unqualified, not

662
00:35:48.199 --> 00:35:51.440
just in terms of medical skill, but in moral character.

663
00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:53.760
The lawsuit was dismissed.

664
00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:57.280
Whule passage is just so terrifying for a number of reasons. Yeah,

665
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:00.440
first of all, thinking about sinus surgery and how I

666
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:03.280
hadn't realized that fixing a dev a scept him had

667
00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:05.360
that kind of a risk to it. Yeah, but The

668
00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:07.840
fact that he just did this and didn't tell anyone

669
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:11.119
is just shocking. It's again, we talked about it a

670
00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:13.559
little bit earlier, but it's hard to imagine how he

671
00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:15.920
didn't lose his medical license right then and there.

672
00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:19.280
Well, it's a nightmare for any patient. You expect that

673
00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:22.440
your doctor has the appropriate training and the credentials, and

674
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:24.280
you don't really.

675
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:26.360
Know, right yeah, you just trust that they do.

676
00:36:26.840 --> 00:36:30.760
By this point, Anthony was ready to leave ODO laryngology behind.

677
00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:34.119
He had long set his sights on plastic surgery, and

678
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:37.400
E and T work had always just been a stepping stone.

679
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:41.800
The problem was Anthony had little formal training in plastic surgery,

680
00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:45.880
but that didn't stop him. He began attending plastic surgery

681
00:36:45.960 --> 00:36:50.559
conferences and setting aside every Wednesday for research. He worked

682
00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:55.519
on cadavers, experimenting with procedures that were more untested than proven.

683
00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:59.440
In his mind, brilliance meant living on the cutting edge,

684
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:03.599
he believed was inevitable, and in a way he did

685
00:37:03.639 --> 00:37:07.239
become semi famous, not for a medical breakthrough, but for

686
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:11.360
an invention born from his own vanity. Anthony had always

687
00:37:11.400 --> 00:37:15.119
obsessed over his appearance. He worked out daily, stayed lean,

688
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:17.840
and carried himself with the confidence of a man who

689
00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:21.639
knew he was considered attractive. But one thing undermined that

690
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:26.000
confidence his hairline. It began receding when he was just

691
00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:28.599
twenty three years old. This was before the days of

692
00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:34.360
rogaine or modern implants. He tried combovers, then two pays, glued, clipped,

693
00:37:34.440 --> 00:37:38.000
or tied down. When those failed, he had tempted elaborate

694
00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:42.760
weaves with other people's hair. Nothing worked, so Anthony dreamed

695
00:37:42.760 --> 00:37:46.719
of something better, A hair piece that wouldn't slip, shift,

696
00:37:46.840 --> 00:37:51.400
or blow away, A permanent solution. He drew inspiration from

697
00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:55.039
surgical implants that he'd seen as an intern. Anchors set

698
00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:59.239
in bone to hold prosthetic teeth, noses, and even ears.

699
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:02.800
Why not implant anchors and the skull to secure a

700
00:38:02.840 --> 00:38:07.320
two pay. Other doctors were skeptical, but Anthony pressed ahead,

701
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:11.760
testing his idea on cadavers, convinced it would work. He

702
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:15.239
needed a live subject, and he decided the best guinea

703
00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:20.239
pig was himself. The timing couldn't have been better. Commercials

704
00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:24.159
for Hairclub for Men were everywhere, with founder Cy Sperling's

705
00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:27.320
famous line, I'm not only the hair club President, but

706
00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:30.880
I'm also a client. If Anthony believed in his invention,

707
00:38:31.159 --> 00:38:34.599
what better pr than to be both doctor and patient.

708
00:38:35.159 --> 00:38:40.719
Oh it sounds pretty scary, but still he had to

709
00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:44.079
find someone to perform the surgery on him. He turned

710
00:38:44.079 --> 00:38:48.159
to the one surgeon he trusted, his father. After much convincing,

711
00:38:48.519 --> 00:38:52.840
doctor Ralph agreed. Ralph drilled four holes into his son's

712
00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:56.960
skull and implanted bolts, just like a real life Frankenstein.

713
00:38:58.079 --> 00:39:02.039
Months later, Anthony had ball and socket joins protruding slightly

714
00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:05.559
above his scalp, to which a custom hairpiece could snap

715
00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:11.440
securely into place. It worked perfectly. Anthony was elated. Debbie,

716
00:39:11.480 --> 00:39:15.199
always supportive, was relieved to see him happy. But Anthony's

717
00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:19.280
renewed confidence only sharpened his cruelty. With his failed proof

718
00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:22.599
to pay in place and his ego soaring, he went

719
00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:26.519
right back to belittling Debbie, criticizing her weight, her looks,

720
00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:29.679
and reminding her she could never measure up to his

721
00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:33.679
idea of perfection. Wow, I have a lot of questions

722
00:39:33.679 --> 00:39:36.119
about this bolted on hair piece.

723
00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:37.840
It sounds crazy, doesn't it.

724
00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:40.960
So what were you attaching to the bolts?

725
00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:41.440
So?

726
00:39:41.639 --> 00:39:43.159
Was it like a to pay essentially?

727
00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:45.480
Yeah, so you had a too Pay that had like

728
00:39:45.800 --> 00:39:49.199
four pieces that matched up with the bolts in your head.

729
00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:51.639
So the bolts in your head were like little sockets,

730
00:39:51.679 --> 00:39:55.400
like almost little like ball joint sockets like coals. And

731
00:39:55.480 --> 00:39:57.039
you would push the two pay into him and it

732
00:39:57.039 --> 00:39:58.880
would pop into place like it would.

733
00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:03.519
Snap in Holy cow. And what was the hair like? Though?

734
00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:05.960
The hair could be whatever you wanted. I mean, I

735
00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:08.800
think the bolts were. That was the key thing he invented,

736
00:40:08.920 --> 00:40:11.199
was the mechanism to attach it. But the actual hair

737
00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:14.159
piece itself, you know, could be whatever. Why not Belcrow,

738
00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:17.199
that seems like maybe a better idea.

739
00:40:17.199 --> 00:40:18.079
Do you think on something?

740
00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:18.920
I think he might be.

741
00:40:19.559 --> 00:40:21.000
We'll be back after a break.

742
00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:31.440
By now, Anthony had fully pivoted to plastic surgery. His

743
00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:34.880
West Seneca office was open and his basement operating room

744
00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:38.239
was outfitted to his liking. At the time, most doctors

745
00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:42.320
still considered advertising beneath them, but Anthony styled himself as

746
00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:46.559
an innovator. He advertised aggressively in newspapers and on the radio,

747
00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:51.320
promoting discount rates for tummy tucks, nose jobs, and breast augmentations.

748
00:40:51.800 --> 00:40:54.119
He even partnered with a radio station to run a

749
00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:57.920
contest where the prize was a free breast enhancement. To

750
00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:00.760
drum up more business, he sent Cooper bonds to local

751
00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:03.639
hair salons, offering a one hundred dollars referral fee for

752
00:41:03.719 --> 00:41:07.599
every patient they sent his way for hair transplants. Of course,

753
00:41:07.639 --> 00:41:11.119
savvy patients knew to ask if their surgeon was board certified.

754
00:41:11.480 --> 00:41:15.320
Anthony wasn't and couldn't be. He hadn't finished his residency,

755
00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:18.239
so he wasn't even eligible for the exams, but that

756
00:41:18.360 --> 00:41:21.760
didn't stop him. He faxed a forged diploma to the

757
00:41:21.800 --> 00:41:24.719
Facial Cosmetic Surgery Board, which allowed him to sit for

758
00:41:24.760 --> 00:41:27.280
the written exam, but when it came for the more

759
00:41:27.320 --> 00:41:32.039
difficult oral test, Anthony skipped it. He still wasn't board certified,

760
00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:35.320
but now he had just enough paperwork and just enough

761
00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:38.920
nerve to claim that he was, and with his charm

762
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:43.199
and charisma, business began to grow. Patients liked him. Anthony

763
00:41:43.239 --> 00:41:46.679
relished the role of successful surgeon. To complete the image,

764
00:41:46.719 --> 00:41:50.039
he bought himself a red Ferrari, sometimes even picking up

765
00:41:50.039 --> 00:41:53.079
patients in it, the flashy car serving as proof that

766
00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:55.920
doctor Anthony Pignataro had made it.

767
00:41:55.920 --> 00:41:58.360
He reminds me so much of Andrew Kissel the case

768
00:41:58.360 --> 00:41:59.280
that we just finished.

769
00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:03.559
Yes, Anthony's business got a major boost when the Associated

770
00:42:03.559 --> 00:42:06.760
Press picked up a story about his surgical hair piece innovation.

771
00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:11.079
The article was syndicated nationwide, and soon Anthony was fielding

772
00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:14.519
calls from media outlets across the country. Here's how the

773
00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:18.800
article began. Anthony Pignataro reaches under his hair and pop

774
00:42:18.880 --> 00:42:21.719
Pop Pop Pop. In a matter of seconds, holds most

775
00:42:21.719 --> 00:42:24.239
of his thick brown locks in the palm of his hand.

776
00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:27.920
All that remains atop his scalp are four gold snaps

777
00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:31.320
embedded deep in the bone of his skull. He appeared

778
00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:34.639
on Hard Copy with Mary Povich, the CBS Evening News

779
00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:38.400
with Tom Brokaw, and was even featured in Esquire magazine.

780
00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:42.280
On television, he wowed audiences with a demonstration pressing his

781
00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:45.119
twope into the four metal snaps anchored in his skull,

782
00:42:45.400 --> 00:42:49.199
locking it neatly into place. Anthony boasted that the implants

783
00:42:49.239 --> 00:42:52.400
would last forever and require no maintenance, and the hair

784
00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:55.920
pieces themselves would last up to four years. At around

785
00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:59.480
four thousand dollars a procedure, it was lucrative by then.

786
00:42:59.559 --> 00:43:02.119
He claimed to have performed the surgery on about one

787
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:06.000
hundred patients. Riding the wave of attention, he began working

788
00:43:06.039 --> 00:43:10.480
on another innovation, and Invisible bra, a surgical implant designed

789
00:43:10.519 --> 00:43:14.400
to hold breasts in place against gravity. He experimented with

790
00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:17.760
different materials on cadavers, but stopped short of trying it

791
00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:23.199
on live patients. Professionally, Anthony was basking in the spotlight. Personally,

792
00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:26.519
the cracks in his marriage were widening. His focus was

793
00:43:26.679 --> 00:43:31.920
entirely on himself, his career, his inventions, his workouts. Debbie

794
00:43:31.960 --> 00:43:35.039
and the kids rarely factored into his time or attention.

795
00:43:35.719 --> 00:43:38.559
The only exception came when their son Ralph began showing

796
00:43:38.599 --> 00:43:41.719
promise in football. That at least drew a spark of

797
00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:45.360
pride from Anthony, but otherwise Debbie and the children were

798
00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:48.159
left on the sidelines while Anthony chased fame.

799
00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:52.159
I'm still fixated on these bolts stiffing out of people's

800
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:54.400
heads and drilled into their skull.

801
00:43:54.679 --> 00:43:55.320
It is wild.

802
00:43:55.400 --> 00:43:57.599
Can't be a good idea. There had to have been

803
00:43:57.639 --> 00:43:59.400
some infections along the way.

804
00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:02.440
I mean, actually, implant surgery is pretty common.

805
00:44:02.519 --> 00:44:02.679
You know.

806
00:44:02.719 --> 00:44:04.960
I have I have a dental implant and it's drilled

807
00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:08.599
into my jaw, and other people have implants drilled into

808
00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:10.679
you know, if they're if they have like a fake

809
00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:13.239
nose or something, which some people do. So it's actually

810
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:16.960
the implant part of the surgery is actually pretty accepted

811
00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:18.599
and happens all the time.

812
00:44:18.760 --> 00:44:20.679
What is the bolt made out of? What material?

813
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:23.400
I'm not sure. Titanium maybe it would be my guess,

814
00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:24.280
but I'm really not sure.

815
00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:26.599
And then the skin just grows around it and the bolt.

816
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:29.440
Yeah, exactly, So it's anchored into your skull and it

817
00:44:29.519 --> 00:44:31.840
sticks up just above your skin, and the skin just

818
00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:33.920
kind of adapts and yeels around it.

819
00:44:34.199 --> 00:44:36.400
Well, I need to look at a lot of pictures

820
00:44:36.440 --> 00:44:36.559
of that.

821
00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:37.440
Yeah.

822
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:39.199
Do you think that that hair looked good?

823
00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:41.920
I mean that I think the way the hair looked

824
00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:45.280
was really dependent on the two pay itself. I think

825
00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:47.800
it was securely attached. That was his goal, right, is

826
00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:50.639
to create something that wouldn't fall off, and that seemed

827
00:44:50.679 --> 00:44:51.280
to be the case.

828
00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:54.599
You have these four different pelts of hair on your skull.

829
00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:58.119
No, this is one piece had four.

830
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:02.159
That makes more sense because I'm thinking like it had

831
00:45:02.199 --> 00:45:04.360
to snap into but ye yeah, yeah, this one piece

832
00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:04.840
of hair out.

833
00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:09.079
It's wild though. In June nineteen ninety six, Anthony's volatility

834
00:45:09.159 --> 00:45:12.440
spilled into public view. Driving in Buffalo, he cut off

835
00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:16.039
a Pontiac Firebird carrying two people. At the next stoplight,

836
00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:20.440
the firebird's passenger got out and confronted him. Anthony's response

837
00:45:20.719 --> 00:45:24.039
he reached for the handgun he carried everywhere. The man

838
00:45:24.159 --> 00:45:27.360
quickly retreated to his car, but Anthony wasn't finished. He

839
00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:30.119
got out, aimed his weapon at the firebird, and pulled

840
00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:33.800
the trigger. A single shot rang out. By sheer luck,

841
00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:37.920
neither occupant was hit. Anthony was arrested for reckless endangerment

842
00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:41.800
and discharging a firearm. His pistol permit was revoked for

843
00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:45.480
a year. That same year, while the family vacationed in Florida,

844
00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:49.440
tragedy struck again. Debbie was holding Lauren in her arms

845
00:45:49.480 --> 00:45:52.840
while her brother in law, piloting a boat, swerved. Suddenly,

846
00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:56.280
unable to break her fall, Debbie slammed against the deck.

847
00:45:56.559 --> 00:45:59.880
She broke several ribs and injured her neck. The ribs

848
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:04.360
eventually healed, but her neck didn't. Chronic pain followed, and

849
00:46:04.519 --> 00:46:07.719
over the next four years she would endure five surgeries.

850
00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:10.719
For a woman already carrying the weight of being the

851
00:46:10.760 --> 00:46:15.960
primary parent, the injury was crushing Anthony barely seemed to notice.

852
00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:19.599
After one surgery, the steroids that Debbie was prescribed left

853
00:46:19.599 --> 00:46:22.800
her face swollen. Anthony looked at her and sneered, look

854
00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:26.639
at you, who would want you? Doctors prescribed painkillers for

855
00:46:26.679 --> 00:46:31.079
her recovery, but before long, Debbie realized the pills were disappearing.

856
00:46:31.480 --> 00:46:34.920
The only explanation was Anthony. He had always been a

857
00:46:34.920 --> 00:46:37.760
heavy drinker, ending most nights in front of the TV

858
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:41.840
with a bottle of tequila, but now Debbie noticed something different.

859
00:46:42.199 --> 00:46:46.039
His speech slurred, his behavior foggy. She began to wonder

860
00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:48.360
just how many of her pills he was taking.

861
00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:51.639
By the mid nineteen nineties, Anthony seemed to be living

862
00:46:51.639 --> 00:46:54.760
out a mid life crisis. And fast forward. He was

863
00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:57.760
still obsessive about his body, but now he added to

864
00:46:57.800 --> 00:47:02.239
the image a red ferrari, a nose job, his revolutionary

865
00:47:02.280 --> 00:47:06.920
hair piece. He even got cheek implants and corrective eye surgery.

866
00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:10.280
The only thing missing was the younger woman, and before

867
00:47:10.440 --> 00:47:14.320
long she appeared. She was an exotic dancer from Virginia

868
00:47:14.360 --> 00:47:17.920
who had come to Anthony for breast augmentation surgery. He

869
00:47:18.039 --> 00:47:22.239
was instantly infatuated. She wasn't impressed at first, but Anthony

870
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:26.599
was relentless for nearly a year. He courted her, driving

871
00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:30.599
down to Virginia in his Ferrari, showering her with gifts

872
00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:34.119
and pressing his case until she finally gave in. While

873
00:47:34.119 --> 00:47:38.440
Anthony chased youth and vanity, his father's health collapsed. In

874
00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:44.159
the spring of nineteen ninety six. Ralph began acting strangely, confused, forgetful,

875
00:47:44.480 --> 00:47:48.760
fumbling for words. An MRI reveal the cause a massive

876
00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:51.719
tumor in the frontal lobe of his brain. He also

877
00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:54.880
had tumors in his lungs and liver. A lifetime of

878
00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:58.199
smoking had caught up with him. Doctors gave him six

879
00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:02.480
months to live. Anne Anthony it was devastating. His whole

880
00:48:02.519 --> 00:48:05.320
career had been about trying to make his father proud

881
00:48:05.559 --> 00:48:09.159
about one day working alongside him as equals. Now he

882
00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:12.559
realized that dream would never happen. Anthony took charge of

883
00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:15.440
his father's care, urging him to seek treatment in Houston

884
00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:19.519
with one of the nation's top specialists, but Ralph refused.

885
00:48:20.039 --> 00:48:22.559
He knew the fight was over. He wanted to spend

886
00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:25.519
his remaining time at home with his family in Buffalo.

887
00:48:26.159 --> 00:48:30.400
In November nineteen ninety six, Ralph Pignataro died at just

888
00:48:30.440 --> 00:48:34.199
sixty two years old. Not long after Ralph's death, Anthony

889
00:48:34.239 --> 00:48:37.280
whisked his exotic dancer girl friend away on a trip

890
00:48:37.400 --> 00:48:40.880
to Puerto Rico. To Debbie, he explained it his business.

891
00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:44.280
He was scooping out locations for a hair clinic. While

892
00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:47.800
he was away, Debbie phoned the hotel. To her shock,

893
00:48:47.880 --> 00:48:51.159
a woman answer the call from Anthony's room. Who are

894
00:48:51.199 --> 00:48:53.320
you and what are you doing in my husband's room,

895
00:48:53.719 --> 00:48:58.159
Debbie demanded. The woman stammered, I'm I'm a model. Doctor

896
00:48:58.199 --> 00:49:03.079
Pignataro did my press like that would be okay. Maybe

897
00:49:03.079 --> 00:49:05.920
that excuse would have worked if Anthony were actually opening

898
00:49:05.920 --> 00:49:09.320
a breast clinic, but Debbie knew better. She snapped, well

899
00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:11.760
tell him his wife called Anne. I don't know who

900
00:49:11.800 --> 00:49:14.239
you are, but if you ever come near him or

901
00:49:14.280 --> 00:49:17.159
my family, I'll fucking kill you. Now, get out of

902
00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:20.960
my husband's room. The girlfriend was so shaken she packed

903
00:49:20.960 --> 00:49:24.679
her bags and fled the hotel. When Anthony heard what happened,

904
00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:27.800
he spent the entire day trying to reach Debbie. When

905
00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:30.639
she finally picked up, he begged her to fly to

906
00:49:30.679 --> 00:49:35.119
Puerto Rico to save their marriage. Furious but torn, Debbie relented.

907
00:49:35.679 --> 00:49:38.639
Anthony greeted her with a lavish gift, a pair of

908
00:49:38.679 --> 00:49:42.880
diamond earrings. Despite her father's advice to forgive only once,

909
00:49:43.079 --> 00:49:47.599
Debbie forgave Anthony again. She still loved him after twenty

910
00:49:47.719 --> 00:49:50.920
years together, through every high and low, she couldn't bring

911
00:49:50.960 --> 00:49:53.800
herself to walk away. But the trust between them was

912
00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:57.840
gone that would never come back. For a time, Anthony

913
00:49:57.880 --> 00:50:01.239
seemed to change. He eased up on the criticism, spent

914
00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:04.000
more time with Debbie and the kids, and acted like

915
00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:07.960
a husband again. But it didn't last with Anthony. It

916
00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:12.039
never did. Before long, there was another woman, this time.

917
00:50:12.159 --> 00:50:13.920
Her name was Tammy Maxwell.

918
00:50:14.119 --> 00:50:16.239
This was not her real name, This is Anne Rule's

919
00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:16.960
name for her.

920
00:50:17.239 --> 00:50:20.159
Tammy owned a cleaning business, went to the same gym

921
00:50:20.199 --> 00:50:24.039
as Anthony, and shared his passion for fitness. Even though

922
00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:29.239
Anthony's plastic surgery business was thriving, he remained notoriously brutal.

923
00:50:29.639 --> 00:50:32.440
He refused to spend money on staff or equipment he

924
00:50:32.519 --> 00:50:37.360
considered unnecessary. His office ran on a skeleton crew, a secretary,

925
00:50:37.519 --> 00:50:40.239
a twenty two year old licensed practical nurse fresh out

926
00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:45.679
of trade school, and occasionally Debbie. Debbie sometimes assisted during surgeries.

927
00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:49.280
She had once worked in a pharmacy, but had like

928
00:50:49.320 --> 00:50:52.480
a pharmacy is training to be a surgical.

929
00:50:52.039 --> 00:50:54.280
Assistant, you know something in the medical field.

930
00:50:54.639 --> 00:50:58.360
Still, Anthony insisted she was good enough. He even recruited

931
00:50:58.400 --> 00:51:02.559
a seventeen year old high school Tom Watkins, who wanted

932
00:51:02.599 --> 00:51:06.519
to be a doctor someday. Anthony let him observe operations

933
00:51:06.519 --> 00:51:10.000
and paid a minimum wage to run errands and fetch supplies.

934
00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:14.599
More troubling than the skeleton crew was Anthony's approach to anesthesia.

935
00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:19.440
He never hired anesthesiologists. Their fees were outrageous, he said.

936
00:51:19.719 --> 00:51:22.199
He insisted he and his nurse could handle it.

937
00:51:22.880 --> 00:51:24.679
Oh my gosh, yes, this.

938
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:29.079
Whole this whole situation is so alarming.

939
00:51:29.360 --> 00:51:30.480
Yeah, it really is.

940
00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:36.000
Anthony had devised his own anesthesia regimen. Before surgery, patients

941
00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:39.079
were handled a cocktail of eight to twelve pills to relax.

942
00:51:39.480 --> 00:51:43.039
Once they were prepped, the nurse inserted an ivy into

943
00:51:43.159 --> 00:51:47.840
it went sodium pentathol and versad, a narcotic similar to velium.

944
00:51:48.360 --> 00:51:51.280
During the procedure, Anthony would signal for more of the

945
00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:54.840
drugs whenever he thought it was needed. Anthony believed his

946
00:51:55.000 --> 00:51:58.639
method was good enough, safe enough, but good enough is

947
00:51:58.719 --> 00:52:02.800
not the standard for surge, and in Anthony Pignataro's basement

948
00:52:02.880 --> 00:52:07.719
operating room, every corner cut put patients at risk on

949
00:52:07.760 --> 00:52:11.400
a scale of one to ten. How illegal is this?

950
00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:15.599
Like a thousand? Right? Like you can't just perform surgery

951
00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:19.880
in a basement somewhere and you can distribute your own anesthesia.

952
00:52:20.239 --> 00:52:22.559
I'm not sure if what he was doing was illegal

953
00:52:23.079 --> 00:52:25.719
or not. To be honest with you, I think you could.

954
00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:28.559
We'll talk at the end. I've got some information about

955
00:52:28.599 --> 00:52:31.440
like rules and regulations and things like that. But he

956
00:52:31.519 --> 00:52:35.559
had a medical license. He could theoretically perform surgeries, and

957
00:52:35.559 --> 00:52:40.360
I think especially cosmetic surgery back then was very unregulated.

958
00:52:40.360 --> 00:52:42.079
It was I've heard it described as kind of the

959
00:52:42.079 --> 00:52:44.920
wild West that people were just doing, you know whatever.

960
00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:46.639
This is so insane to me. I know, we have

961
00:52:46.679 --> 00:52:49.320
a lot of medical professionals that follow us, and I'm

962
00:52:49.360 --> 00:52:52.920
sure that they are a gas right now. For years,

963
00:52:52.960 --> 00:52:57.280
Anthony's corner cutting hadn't led to any public disasters, but

964
00:52:57.360 --> 00:53:00.760
that changed in the summer of nineteen ninety seven. In July,

965
00:53:01.079 --> 00:53:05.360
thirty nine year old Terry Lamarty visited Anthony's office. Her

966
00:53:05.440 --> 00:53:08.599
husband had given her a gift certificate for LiPo section.

967
00:53:09.239 --> 00:53:12.199
That's just a great berth. He can't give you a

968
00:53:12.239 --> 00:53:15.960
birthday gift. She was thrilled to finally use. After four children,

969
00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:19.199
she couldn't shake the belly weight despite her best efforts

970
00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:23.119
at the gym. During the consultation, Anthony's confident manner and

971
00:53:23.199 --> 00:53:26.920
the framed certificate on his wall reading American Board of

972
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:31.159
Cosmetic Surgeons, immediately put her at ease. He examined her

973
00:53:31.159 --> 00:53:35.079
abdomen and told her liposection wouldn't be enough. Her muscles

974
00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:39.360
were shot. He said what she needed was an abdominoplasty

975
00:53:39.639 --> 00:53:42.760
a tummy tuck. It would cost more, but he promised

976
00:53:42.760 --> 00:53:46.039
it would be worth it. Terry agreed. The surgery was

977
00:53:46.079 --> 00:53:49.519
scheduled for eight thirty a m. On Tuesday, August fifth.

978
00:53:49.920 --> 00:53:53.559
That morning, Terry and her husband Ned arrived. Anthony handed

979
00:53:53.599 --> 00:53:56.480
her about ten pills to swallow. He told Ned to

980
00:53:56.519 --> 00:53:58.880
head home and call around one p m. To see

981
00:53:58.880 --> 00:54:02.079
if she was ready. The nurse led Terry downstairs to

982
00:54:02.119 --> 00:54:05.280
the basement operating room. The next thing she knew was

983
00:54:05.320 --> 00:54:08.000
four or thirty in the afternoon. The surgery was over

984
00:54:08.199 --> 00:54:10.719
and Ned was there to help her. Home, but on

985
00:54:10.760 --> 00:54:14.320
the way back, she realized something was terribly wrong. Blood

986
00:54:14.360 --> 00:54:16.960
was soaking through her clothes. By the time they reached

987
00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:19.960
the house, it was running down her legs. Her daughter

988
00:54:20.039 --> 00:54:23.320
had to mop up the floor. Terry, who had endured

989
00:54:23.440 --> 00:54:26.400
four childbirths, said it was the worst pain of her life.

990
00:54:26.960 --> 00:54:31.360
Ned called Anthony alarmed. Anthony brushed it off. I'ds just drainage,

991
00:54:31.400 --> 00:54:36.400
she said, perfectly normal. He suggested sanitary napkins. They tried,

992
00:54:36.480 --> 00:54:39.519
but the bleeding didn't stop, neither did the pain. For

993
00:54:39.679 --> 00:54:44.320
two days, Terry tufted out. Finally, she insisted on returning.

994
00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:48.679
Anthony examined her swollen belly and adjusted a surgical girdle

995
00:54:48.840 --> 00:54:51.360
around her incision. He told her to come back in

996
00:54:51.400 --> 00:54:53.880
a couple of days. He'd be out of town, but

997
00:54:53.960 --> 00:54:56.800
as nurse could check on her. The nurse, young and

998
00:54:56.880 --> 00:55:02.519
visibly inexperienced, inspired no confidence. By then, Terry had lost

999
00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:06.119
all faith in Anthony. That afternoon, Ned drove her to

1000
00:55:06.199 --> 00:55:10.239
the er. What doctors saw shocked them. Her stomach was

1001
00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:14.599
grotesquely swollen, as if she were seven months pregnant. Twenty

1002
00:55:14.639 --> 00:55:18.840
staples ran across her abdomen, but wide gaps between them

1003
00:55:18.920 --> 00:55:22.639
were large enough to slide a finger through. Tests confirming

1004
00:55:22.679 --> 00:55:27.159
Anthony had punctured her intestine, causing a severe infection. She

1005
00:55:27.280 --> 00:55:32.119
was immediately started on ivy antibiotics. The next day, Terry

1006
00:55:32.239 --> 00:55:37.559
got an unexpected visitor, Anthony. What happened, he asked, feigning

1007
00:55:37.599 --> 00:55:40.519
confusion about why she was there. He glanced at her

1008
00:55:40.559 --> 00:55:44.039
incision and declared, there's nothing medically wrong with you. Then

1009
00:55:44.039 --> 00:55:47.199
he grabbed her chart and wrote that she should be discharged.

1010
00:55:47.679 --> 00:55:50.880
Nurses intervened and called for a doctor, who ordered Anthony

1011
00:55:50.920 --> 00:55:53.800
to leave, but he came back the next day, angrier

1012
00:55:54.320 --> 00:55:57.320
holding her chart. He shouted at her, I told you

1013
00:55:57.320 --> 00:56:00.280
you don't belong in a hospital. You need to go home.

1014
00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:03.960
A physician stepped in again and forced him out. Later,

1015
00:56:04.159 --> 00:56:08.440
Terry's doctor called Anthony to explain her condition. Anthony dismissed it.

1016
00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:11.599
That's nothing. There's nothing wrong with her. I've seen worse.

1017
00:56:12.199 --> 00:56:16.280
The doctor was stunned. This is bad, doctor, He said,

1018
00:56:16.599 --> 00:56:19.920
you shouldn't be doing these procedures in your office. Anthony

1019
00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:23.199
shot back, it isn't an office, it's a surgery center.

1020
00:56:23.639 --> 00:56:27.360
From then on, hospital security was stationed outside Terry's door

1021
00:56:27.440 --> 00:56:31.199
to keep Anthony away. Thankfully, after nearly a week in

1022
00:56:31.239 --> 00:56:35.639
the hospital, Terry recovered, but not every patient of doctor

1023
00:56:35.679 --> 00:56:38.239
Anthony Pignataro would be so lucky.

1024
00:56:38.719 --> 00:56:42.880
The whole the image of Terry's abdomen and these staples

1025
00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:46.599
and the gaps between these staples is just hearing.

1026
00:56:46.320 --> 00:56:50.599
That just makes me spine chilling. It really is just

1027
00:56:51.280 --> 00:56:56.000
it's so shocking to me and so scary. And I'm

1028
00:56:56.039 --> 00:56:58.320
glad that she was okay, but it sounds kind of

1029
00:56:58.360 --> 00:57:00.719
like a miracle. I'm so glad that they went to

1030
00:57:00.800 --> 00:57:03.840
the er and didn't keep going back to Anthony's office.

1031
00:57:03.880 --> 00:57:08.360
But yeah, what a full I mean, there's just not

1032
00:57:08.480 --> 00:57:09.079
enough words.

1033
00:57:09.199 --> 00:57:11.800
No, there really aren't. And he is just so arrogant

1034
00:57:11.840 --> 00:57:15.159
that he can't see that he could possibly make any

1035
00:57:15.199 --> 00:57:17.480
mistake or do anything wrong. It's just such a bad

1036
00:57:17.719 --> 00:57:21.840
combination of lack of surgical skill and arrogance. It's just

1037
00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:25.360
really bad. Always eager to be seen on the cutting edge,

1038
00:57:25.400 --> 00:57:28.159
Anthony jumped at the chance to offer a new procedure,

1039
00:57:28.480 --> 00:57:33.000
trans umbilical breast augmentation or TUBA, often called belly button

1040
00:57:33.039 --> 00:57:37.920
breast augmentation. Traditional breast enhancements left scars either beneath the

1041
00:57:37.960 --> 00:57:41.960
breasts or under the arms. TUBA promised something new, a

1042
00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:45.440
tiny incision hidden in the patient's belly button. Through it,

1043
00:57:45.519 --> 00:57:48.719
the surgeon would thread empty saline implants up under the

1044
00:57:48.719 --> 00:57:52.280
skin to the breasts, then fill them to the desired size.

1045
00:57:52.719 --> 00:57:55.320
It was less invasive, and the only scar, if any,

1046
00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:58.440
would be hidden at the navel. Patients loved the idea,

1047
00:57:59.000 --> 00:58:02.280
but there was a reason few surgeons performed it. TUBA

1048
00:58:02.360 --> 00:58:08.039
required specialized equipment, an endoscope, camera system, and custom surgical instruments.

1049
00:58:08.440 --> 00:58:13.840
More importantly, it demanded expert skill, precision, dexterity, and advanced

1050
00:58:13.960 --> 00:58:17.760
endoscopic training. One pioneer of the procedure even wrote that

1051
00:58:17.840 --> 00:58:21.480
surgeons should take a full week long intensive course before

1052
00:58:21.519 --> 00:58:24.840
attempting it. Anthony had no interest in a week of training.

1053
00:58:25.119 --> 00:58:27.880
He didn't need it, he told himself. He had supreme

1054
00:58:27.960 --> 00:58:31.719
confidence in his own abilities, and so without the training,

1055
00:58:32.119 --> 00:58:36.360
without the specialized experience, Anthony began offering TUBA in his

1056
00:58:36.480 --> 00:58:40.320
West Seneca office. Sarah Smith had the misfortune of being

1057
00:58:40.320 --> 00:58:43.119
one of his very first patients. What should have been

1058
00:58:43.159 --> 00:58:46.639
a routine cosmetic procedure would instead turn into a nightmare

1059
00:58:46.880 --> 00:58:50.480
from which she would never truly wake. Sarah Smith born

1060
00:58:50.599 --> 00:58:54.360
Sarah Grafton in May nineteen seventy one. Grew up in Springville,

1061
00:58:54.360 --> 00:58:57.000
New York. When she was just six weeks old, her

1062
00:58:57.000 --> 00:59:00.519
four year old brother David was diagnosed with muscular dystrophe.

1063
00:59:01.079 --> 00:59:04.719
He needed constant care, and as a child, Sarah sometimes

1064
00:59:04.760 --> 00:59:08.000
resented the attention that David received, but as they grew

1065
00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:11.880
resentment gave way to love. Sarah became his best friend,

1066
00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:16.159
his confidante, and his fiercest protector. She never complained about

1067
00:59:16.199 --> 00:59:19.559
helping him, no matter how much it disrupted her own life.

1068
00:59:19.599 --> 00:59:22.920
Sarah thrived in school. She took violin lessons, played in

1069
00:59:22.960 --> 00:59:26.000
the school orchestra, and had plenty of friends, but she

1070
00:59:26.079 --> 00:59:28.880
always made time for David, who by then relied on

1071
00:59:28.920 --> 00:59:32.760
a wheelchair. As a freshman, Sarah began dating Dan Smith,

1072
00:59:32.880 --> 00:59:37.280
a junior. Dan's compassion showed early. He welcomed David into

1073
00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:41.519
their plans without hesitation. To Sarah, that kindness revealed Dan's

1074
00:59:41.599 --> 00:59:44.519
character and made her love him all the more. In

1075
00:59:44.559 --> 00:59:48.440
February nineteen ninety, not long after Sarah graduated high school,

1076
00:59:48.639 --> 00:59:52.639
her brother David passed away. Through grief. Sarah and Dan's

1077
00:59:52.679 --> 00:59:57.079
relationship endured even after his family moved forty five minutes away,

1078
00:59:57.199 --> 01:00:00.880
and Dan left for college. They stayed together. In June

1079
01:00:00.920 --> 01:00:04.440
nineteen ninety they married and settled in an apartment in Lancaster,

1080
01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:08.000
New York. Soon after, they welcomed their first child, Nathan.

1081
01:00:08.679 --> 01:00:10.960
Sarah worked as a courier for a law firm with

1082
01:00:11.039 --> 01:00:14.280
hopes of one day becoming a paralegal, while Dan found

1083
01:00:14.320 --> 01:00:18.119
steady work as a drafter. Three years later, their daughter, Amanda,

1084
01:00:18.239 --> 01:00:21.400
was born. By August nineteen ninety five, they had saved

1085
01:00:21.519 --> 01:00:24.199
enough for a starter home. Dan built a shed in

1086
01:00:24.239 --> 01:00:26.920
the back yard, and Sarah discovered a love of gardening.

1087
01:00:27.239 --> 01:00:30.039
Their marriage, while not perfect, was by all accounts, a

1088
01:00:30.079 --> 01:00:34.079
happy one. In early nineteen ninety seven, Sarah underwent surgery

1089
01:00:34.119 --> 01:00:37.320
to correct a deviated septum. While there, she had a

1090
01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:40.559
bump on her nose removed. The operation went smoothly, and

1091
01:00:40.639 --> 01:00:44.039
she was thrilled with the results. The success emboldened her

1092
01:00:44.039 --> 01:00:47.840
to pursue something she had long wanted, breast enhancement. She

1093
01:00:47.920 --> 01:00:50.119
once joked to her mother in law, how could I

1094
01:00:50.159 --> 01:00:53.920
have two kids and no boobs? Everyone, including Dan, thought

1095
01:00:53.960 --> 01:00:57.199
she was beautiful as she was. Dan opposed the surgery

1096
01:00:57.280 --> 01:00:59.760
partly because he saw no need for it and partly

1097
01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:03.039
because because he feared the risks, but Sarah was determined.

1098
01:01:03.480 --> 01:01:06.039
After a promotion at work, she set aside money for

1099
01:01:06.119 --> 01:01:08.960
the procedure. When she was ready, she called a couple

1100
01:01:08.960 --> 01:01:12.599
of doctors. Doctor Peter Callamel quoted a price of six

1101
01:01:12.679 --> 01:01:15.800
thousand dollars, But then Sarah heard from a friend of

1102
01:01:15.840 --> 01:01:19.079
a friend about doctor Anthony Pignataro. He could do the

1103
01:01:19.119 --> 01:01:22.159
surgery for one thousand dollars less because he could do

1104
01:01:22.199 --> 01:01:26.360
it in his own office, avoiding anesthesiologist and hospital fees.

1105
01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:29.920
In early August nineteen ninety seven, twenty six year old

1106
01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:34.280
Sarah walked into Pignataro's office for a consultation. He immediately

1107
01:01:34.280 --> 01:01:37.519
put her at ease. He recommended the new trans umbilical

1108
01:01:37.599 --> 01:01:40.880
breast augmentation technique, the one he claimed would soon be

1109
01:01:40.960 --> 01:01:44.039
standard everywhere. He told her she was getting in early

1110
01:01:44.159 --> 01:01:47.920
at a special price. Blood work was done, the risks explained,

1111
01:01:48.079 --> 01:01:51.599
the forms signed. Her surgery was scheduled for Monday, August

1112
01:01:51.679 --> 01:01:55.360
twenty fifth, at nine thirty am. Just a few days before,

1113
01:01:55.519 --> 01:01:58.239
at a family pool party, Sarah leaned over to her

1114
01:01:58.239 --> 01:02:00.719
mother in law and whispered, with a smile, take a

1115
01:02:00.719 --> 01:02:02.760
good look, because this is the last time I'll look

1116
01:02:02.840 --> 01:02:05.519
like this in a bathing suit. On the morning of

1117
01:02:05.519 --> 01:02:09.360
August twenty fifth, Dan drove Sarah to Anthony Pignataro's office,

1118
01:02:09.599 --> 01:02:12.079
carrying a book to pass the time while he waited.

1119
01:02:12.519 --> 01:02:15.360
After giving Sarah the usual handful of pills and taking

1120
01:02:15.360 --> 01:02:18.679
her to the operating room, Anthony suggested Dan leave and

1121
01:02:18.760 --> 01:02:22.559
run some errands. Dan was reluctant, but Anthony pressed it

1122
01:02:22.599 --> 01:02:25.360
was clear that he wanted him gone, so Dan left

1123
01:02:25.960 --> 01:02:29.679
inside ther Anthony was assisted by his LPN twenty two

1124
01:02:29.760 --> 01:02:33.800
year old Janie Krause, his wife, Debbie, and his teenage intern,

1125
01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:38.360
seventeen year old Tom Watkins. Jane managed the IV adding

1126
01:02:38.440 --> 01:02:42.039
drugs when Anthony instructed. Debbie was told to monitor the

1127
01:02:42.079 --> 01:02:45.320
pulse ox simeter and blood pressure. Tom was there mostly

1128
01:02:45.360 --> 01:02:48.599
to observe and run errands. Once the pills took cold,

1129
01:02:48.719 --> 01:02:52.280
Janey injected six se seeds of sodium pentathol and three

1130
01:02:52.320 --> 01:02:56.800
c seeds of versaid into Sarah's IV. Anthony began the procedure,

1131
01:02:56.880 --> 01:02:59.760
then directed a second injection of seven c seeds of

1132
01:02:59.800 --> 01:03:04.760
fizodium pentathal. Later, when Sarah muttered out several times, Anthony

1133
01:03:04.880 --> 01:03:09.199
ordered a third injection another seven ccs. Moments later, the

1134
01:03:09.199 --> 01:03:13.039
pulsock simeter alarm began to shriek. Sarah's oxygen level had

1135
01:03:13.119 --> 01:03:16.719
dropped below eighty five. Any trained surgeon would know the

1136
01:03:16.719 --> 01:03:21.119
priority was immediate get oxygen into the patient, but Anthony

1137
01:03:21.159 --> 01:03:24.119
ignored it. He told Debbie the wire was probably loose

1138
01:03:24.199 --> 01:03:27.639
and to jiggle the monitor. He then instructed Debbie to

1139
01:03:27.639 --> 01:03:30.679
get some nail polish remover to remove the polish on

1140
01:03:30.719 --> 01:03:33.480
Sarah's nails so that he could see the nail bed better.

1141
01:03:33.960 --> 01:03:37.199
Debbie grew alarmed as she watched Sarah's lips turn blue

1142
01:03:37.400 --> 01:03:40.960
her skin gray. She told Anthony almost at the same

1143
01:03:41.000 --> 01:03:45.159
time the blood pressure alarm began sounding. Sarah had stopped breathing.

1144
01:03:45.440 --> 01:03:49.480
She was in cardiac arrest. Anthony finally stopped operating and

1145
01:03:49.519 --> 01:03:53.159
called for an AMBU bag, the handheld resuscitator standard in

1146
01:03:53.239 --> 01:03:57.440
any or, but there wasn't one. He sent Tom scrambling

1147
01:03:57.440 --> 01:03:59.719
to find one. All the boy could find was a

1148
01:03:59.760 --> 01:04:04.400
chill ldren's size AMBI bag useless, Anthony injected Lyda Kane

1149
01:04:04.519 --> 01:04:07.079
then tried to force open Sarah's airway with a flat

1150
01:04:07.119 --> 01:04:12.000
piece of metal. Debbie began chest compressions Finally, Anthony told

1151
01:04:12.000 --> 01:04:15.840
Tom to call nine one one. When paramedics arrived minutes later,

1152
01:04:15.880 --> 01:04:20.360
the scene was chaos. Janey was pumping compressions, Anthony was

1153
01:04:20.360 --> 01:04:23.400
fumbling with a coat hanger, trying to fashion it into

1154
01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:27.960
an airway device. The EMTs quickly took over. They searched

1155
01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:31.320
for a crash cart, there was none. They loaded Sarah

1156
01:04:31.360 --> 01:04:34.440
onto a gurney and into the ambulance. Only then did

1157
01:04:34.440 --> 01:04:38.039
she finally receive oxygen. They managed to shock her heart

1158
01:04:38.079 --> 01:04:41.440
back into rhythm, but it had been nineteen maybe twenty

1159
01:04:41.440 --> 01:04:44.840
minutes since Sarah Smith had last drawn a proper breath,

1160
01:04:45.239 --> 01:04:48.559
far too long for her brain to survive intact. When

1161
01:04:48.639 --> 01:04:51.960
Dan Smith returned to Pignatara's office, Debbie met him at

1162
01:04:51.960 --> 01:04:54.599
the door. We've had a little problem, she said. Your

1163
01:04:54.639 --> 01:04:57.480
wife wasn't breathing, But she's breathing now. She's on the

1164
01:04:57.480 --> 01:05:00.960
way to the hospital. Debbie drove him there. At first,

1165
01:05:01.079 --> 01:05:05.039
Dan wasn't overly worried. It was inconceivable that anything serious

1166
01:05:05.079 --> 01:05:07.599
could have happened to his healthy, twenty six year old

1167
01:05:07.679 --> 01:05:11.239
wife during a routine procedure. That changed the moment he

1168
01:05:11.360 --> 01:05:14.000
arrived at the hospital, A priest and a nun were

1169
01:05:14.000 --> 01:05:16.920
waiting for him. They led him to the ICU, where

1170
01:05:16.960 --> 01:05:20.880
Sarah lay motionless, attached to machines. Dan fell to his

1171
01:05:21.000 --> 01:05:24.800
knees and shock. He called his mother and Sarah's Both

1172
01:05:24.880 --> 01:05:27.800
rushed to the hospital. One look from a nurse told

1173
01:05:27.920 --> 01:05:30.519
Dan's mom how bad it was. The nurse pulled her

1174
01:05:30.559 --> 01:05:33.440
aside and whispered, get a lawyer, a good one. This

1175
01:05:33.519 --> 01:05:35.639
guy has put five people in the hospital in the

1176
01:05:35.679 --> 01:05:38.039
last few weeks. I don't know if that's true that

1177
01:05:38.079 --> 01:05:40.599
he put five people in the hospital, but definitely there

1178
01:05:40.679 --> 01:05:42.400
was the story we told earlier, and I think there

1179
01:05:42.400 --> 01:05:44.880
may have been a couple others as well as Dan

1180
01:05:45.000 --> 01:05:48.320
and his family waited in anguish Anthony and Debbie arrived.

1181
01:05:48.679 --> 01:05:52.519
Debbie seemed dazed. Anthony, on the other hand, kept insisting

1182
01:05:52.760 --> 01:05:57.079
everything would be fine. He even began planting excuses suggesting

1183
01:05:57.519 --> 01:06:00.199
Sarah might have been taking medications that he hadn't known.

1184
01:06:01.079 --> 01:06:04.199
The next day, doctors leveled with Dan there was no

1185
01:06:04.320 --> 01:06:07.239
chance of recovery. If Sarah lived, it would be on

1186
01:06:07.320 --> 01:06:11.159
life support in a vegetative state. Dan couldn't accept it.

1187
01:06:11.519 --> 01:06:14.559
He spent every possible moment at her bedside, clinging to

1188
01:06:14.599 --> 01:06:18.480
hope Anthony kept showing up too, but his presence unnerved

1189
01:06:18.519 --> 01:06:22.639
the staff. Eventually, Dan had Sarah's former law firm intervene

1190
01:06:22.920 --> 01:06:26.280
and a court order was issued barring Anthony from the hospital.

1191
01:06:26.719 --> 01:06:30.840
On Labor Day, September one, nineteen ninety seven, seven days

1192
01:06:30.880 --> 01:06:34.800
after her surgery, Sarah was removed from life support. She

1193
01:06:35.000 --> 01:06:38.119
was gone. She left behind her husband Dan and their

1194
01:06:38.119 --> 01:06:42.840
two children, Nathan, aged seven and Amanda, just four. Not

1195
01:06:42.960 --> 01:06:46.039
long after, the doctor who had treated Terry Lamarty picked

1196
01:06:46.119 --> 01:06:48.199
up the phone and called her. Do you know what

1197
01:06:48.239 --> 01:06:50.760
a lucky woman you are? He said, that son of

1198
01:06:50.800 --> 01:06:52.880
a bitch just killed a twenty six year old mother

1199
01:06:52.920 --> 01:06:55.360
of two. He gave her the same handful of pills

1200
01:06:55.400 --> 01:06:58.000
he gave you. She went into cardiac arrest on the

1201
01:06:58.039 --> 01:07:01.119
table and never came back. And that is where we

1202
01:07:01.159 --> 01:07:02.599
are going to end part one.

1203
01:07:02.960 --> 01:07:07.880
Well, that was really a horrible situation that was really

1204
01:07:07.920 --> 01:07:08.599
tough to listen to.

1205
01:07:08.719 --> 01:07:13.280
It's a really scary story because we just trust doctors innately.

1206
01:07:13.440 --> 01:07:16.440
I mean, we just assume that when we go see

1207
01:07:16.480 --> 01:07:19.639
a doctor or a surgeon in this case, that they're qualified,

1208
01:07:19.719 --> 01:07:21.880
they know what they're doing, they've got it under control.

1209
01:07:21.880 --> 01:07:24.199
And I think most people don't really think much more

1210
01:07:24.239 --> 01:07:24.960
about it than that.

1211
01:07:25.400 --> 01:07:28.280
Well, I think this was a super extreme case too.

1212
01:07:28.400 --> 01:07:31.119
Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, the vast majority of surgeons are

1213
01:07:31.320 --> 01:07:34.880
highly qualified and experienced, but yeah, it's unusual. But still

1214
01:07:34.880 --> 01:07:36.760
we just take it for granted, you know.

1215
01:07:37.280 --> 01:07:40.239
Yeah, every time you go under anesthesia, you assume that

1216
01:07:40.280 --> 01:07:42.039
you're going to come out, and you know, every day

1217
01:07:42.079 --> 01:07:43.039
people don't.

1218
01:07:43.440 --> 01:07:46.440
Yeah. One thing I read that surprised me is and

1219
01:07:46.480 --> 01:07:49.599
this is in nineteen ninety seven, that many patients don't

1220
01:07:49.599 --> 01:07:52.360
realize that once doctor is complete medical school, they can

1221
01:07:52.400 --> 01:07:56.000
practice any specialty, including surgery, even though they might lack

1222
01:07:56.079 --> 01:07:59.960
advanced training. I think that's maybe gotten better over the years.

1223
01:08:00.039 --> 01:08:03.079
There are maybe a little more regulations and requirements in place,

1224
01:08:03.159 --> 01:08:05.760
but at the time that that was the case, that

1225
01:08:05.800 --> 01:08:07.599
it's really it's scary.

1226
01:08:08.039 --> 01:08:12.119
Yeah. My understanding is that surgeons today need fifteen to

1227
01:08:12.159 --> 01:08:15.559
twenty thousand hours or some huge number like that of

1228
01:08:15.960 --> 01:08:19.560
practicing or not practicing, but observing and learning before that

1229
01:08:19.880 --> 01:08:21.600
they can perform a surgery on their own.

1230
01:08:21.760 --> 01:08:23.680
Yeah, and again I think, like I mentioned earlier, I

1231
01:08:23.720 --> 01:08:27.239
think cosmetic surgery was a little bit of more like

1232
01:08:27.239 --> 01:08:29.439
the Wild West back then as well, that there just

1233
01:08:29.680 --> 01:08:33.039
was not as much oversight over it, and so yeah,

1234
01:08:33.079 --> 01:08:36.079
it's really frightening. Let me just ask you a couple

1235
01:08:36.079 --> 01:08:39.479
of questions. When you think about Anthony's character and his

1236
01:08:39.560 --> 01:08:42.560
story so far, what are the warning signs that stand

1237
01:08:42.600 --> 01:08:45.119
out the most to you that kind of raised your

1238
01:08:45.800 --> 01:08:46.760
red flags for you?

1239
01:08:46.880 --> 01:08:50.600
Well, his ego and narcissism, right, like he needs to

1240
01:08:50.640 --> 01:08:54.239
be right more than he needs to take care of

1241
01:08:54.279 --> 01:08:57.319
his patients and do what's right by his family, by

1242
01:08:57.319 --> 01:09:00.960
his patients, you know. Yeah, just just not a good guy.

1243
01:09:01.159 --> 01:09:04.439
No, not a good guy, not a team player, incredibly arrogant.

1244
01:09:04.640 --> 01:09:07.760
I'm really curious how many well how many hair transplants

1245
01:09:07.840 --> 01:09:10.520
did he do were people satisfied with the results, And

1246
01:09:10.560 --> 01:09:14.960
how many cosmetic procedures did he do where people recommended him,

1247
01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:19.079
Like you said that, Sarah, that a friend of a

1248
01:09:19.119 --> 01:09:20.239
friend recommended him.

1249
01:09:20.640 --> 01:09:22.680
I didn't mention it, but the friend of the friend

1250
01:09:22.880 --> 01:09:25.119
was the nurse that worked for Anthony. She was like

1251
01:09:25.239 --> 01:09:28.479
roommates with her husband's sister or something like that.

1252
01:09:28.760 --> 01:09:31.399
So we're not sure if he even had any procedures

1253
01:09:31.399 --> 01:09:32.279
that were successful.

1254
01:09:32.319 --> 01:09:34.119
Well, he did a lot of the hair transplants, at

1255
01:09:34.199 --> 01:09:36.439
least that's what when he was interviewed and kind of

1256
01:09:36.479 --> 01:09:40.560
did his media rounds the hair you know, piece attachment thing.

1257
01:09:40.720 --> 01:09:43.159
He said he did like one hundred or more of those.

1258
01:09:43.479 --> 01:09:45.000
I don't know if that was true, but I think

1259
01:09:45.039 --> 01:09:47.159
he did quite a few of them. And honestly, I

1260
01:09:47.199 --> 01:09:51.319
think that surgery is probably relatively easy compared to like

1261
01:09:51.439 --> 01:09:55.159
the trans umbilical breast augmentation, because you're just kind of,

1262
01:09:55.159 --> 01:09:58.199
you know, drilling a little bit into bone, which sounds scary,

1263
01:09:58.279 --> 01:10:01.359
but I think it's actually not as common plicated. Okay,

1264
01:10:02.039 --> 01:10:03.039
I know I'm not going to have it done.

1265
01:10:03.359 --> 01:10:07.239
I'm not having anyone drill into my skull for any reason. Yeah.

1266
01:10:07.359 --> 01:10:09.920
No, it's the same one question I wanted to ask you.

1267
01:10:10.000 --> 01:10:14.439
I'm sure Dan felt awful about this. He he didn't

1268
01:10:14.479 --> 01:10:17.000
want Sarah to have the surgery because he thought she

1269
01:10:17.039 --> 01:10:18.840
didn't need it, for one, but he was worried about

1270
01:10:18.880 --> 01:10:21.399
the risks. But she really wanted to have the surgery.

1271
01:10:21.439 --> 01:10:24.159
And I'm curious as a as a spouse, like if

1272
01:10:24.159 --> 01:10:27.119
I wanted to go get my nose done, for example,

1273
01:10:27.239 --> 01:10:29.439
but you were worried about that and didn't, like, how

1274
01:10:29.439 --> 01:10:32.399
hard would you push versus being like, it's your decision

1275
01:10:32.640 --> 01:10:33.159
to do that.

1276
01:10:33.680 --> 01:10:36.960
Well, I feel like plastic surgery is safer today, right,

1277
01:10:37.279 --> 01:10:39.479
So if you really wanted to get something done, I

1278
01:10:39.479 --> 01:10:42.239
wouldn't stand in your way. I really like your nose,

1279
01:10:43.760 --> 01:10:45.359
your chin, though, I think you could use like a

1280
01:10:45.439 --> 01:10:50.000
chin implant. Maybe. I just I really don't think that

1281
01:10:50.119 --> 01:10:53.359
most plastic surgery needs to be done. Makes me sad

1282
01:10:53.520 --> 01:10:56.359
that so many people hate their faces and their bodies.

1283
01:10:56.520 --> 01:10:59.159
I mean, I'm not I don't know how to explain, like,

1284
01:10:59.640 --> 01:11:03.680
I'm probably average looking, but I don't really care. I mean,

1285
01:11:03.720 --> 01:11:04.159
I don't know.

1286
01:11:04.439 --> 01:11:07.359
You're far better than average looking, first of all. But second,

1287
01:11:07.359 --> 01:11:10.039
I think even then, I think these procedures were by

1288
01:11:10.079 --> 01:11:12.359
and large very safe. So even if Dan was worried

1289
01:11:12.399 --> 01:11:15.000
about it, you know, I think there wasn't There wasn't

1290
01:11:15.000 --> 01:11:17.760
that much reason to worry. So if Sarah wanted to

1291
01:11:17.760 --> 01:11:18.600
have it done, I.

1292
01:11:18.560 --> 01:11:21.479
Would imagine dropping. If I were dropping you off in

1293
01:11:21.560 --> 01:11:25.000
a basement to have you know, a major surgery, I

1294
01:11:25.000 --> 01:11:26.159
would be pretty scared.

1295
01:11:26.520 --> 01:11:29.119
That would be a little bit of a warning sign,

1296
01:11:29.319 --> 01:11:31.880
I would think. Although there are surgery centers everywhere, and

1297
01:11:31.880 --> 01:11:33.720
I don't think Dan ever probably went down to the

1298
01:11:33.720 --> 01:11:36.760
basement to look at the operating room. I think people

1299
01:11:36.760 --> 01:11:38.520
don't know what to look for either. They're not like, oh,

1300
01:11:38.560 --> 01:11:40.760
you don't have a you know, this particular piece of

1301
01:11:40.800 --> 01:11:43.199
equipment or whatever. So it's fair not.

1302
01:11:43.359 --> 01:11:46.199
Having the crash cart is that's pretty scary.

1303
01:11:46.399 --> 01:11:48.520
That is pretty scary. Yeah, I wouldn't know to look

1304
01:11:48.560 --> 01:11:49.000
for that.

1305
01:11:49.000 --> 01:11:51.680
But no, absolutely not. You trust your doctor.

1306
01:11:51.880 --> 01:11:54.319
Yeah. I did do a little bit of research on

1307
01:11:54.439 --> 01:11:58.159
what has changed in terms of regulations for cosmetic surgery,

1308
01:11:58.399 --> 01:12:01.319
specifically because one of the newspapers I read at the

1309
01:12:01.359 --> 01:12:04.640
time that this happened said that there's really no consensus

1310
01:12:04.680 --> 01:12:09.000
on standards for office based facilities or surgery centers where

1311
01:12:09.079 --> 01:12:15.039
cosmetic procedures are routinely done. Offices are largely unregulated. Accreditation

1312
01:12:15.640 --> 01:12:20.199
is voluntary, and so offices escape scrutiny of insurers because

1313
01:12:20.199 --> 01:12:22.600
they're not done. You know, it's not a big hospital chain.

1314
01:12:23.000 --> 01:12:25.800
But since then, there are some things that have changed.

1315
01:12:26.199 --> 01:12:30.359
There is some increased oversight, like professional associations have developed

1316
01:12:30.399 --> 01:12:35.479
and they provide practice advisories, they recommend safety protocols. There's

1317
01:12:35.520 --> 01:12:40.279
more of an emphasis on safety culture, staff training, emergency protocols.

1318
01:12:40.680 --> 01:12:45.399
There are more states that have some regulation around cosmetic surgery.

1319
01:12:45.520 --> 01:12:48.840
So in twenty twenty two, fewer than thirty states had

1320
01:12:48.920 --> 01:12:52.119
laws governing office based surgery. But that's a lot more

1321
01:12:52.119 --> 01:12:54.079
than I think there were at the time in nineteen

1322
01:12:54.119 --> 01:12:57.399
ninety seven, So it's definitely becoming more common that there

1323
01:12:57.399 --> 01:12:59.920
are regulations around this type of thing.

1324
01:13:00.520 --> 01:13:04.239
I believe that Kanye West's mom died during cosmetic surgery,

1325
01:13:04.319 --> 01:13:08.640
oh really. And Joan Rivers died during a procedure, and

1326
01:13:08.680 --> 01:13:11.239
she obviously had a lot of plastic surgery, but I

1327
01:13:11.319 --> 01:13:15.239
think her cause of death was during a procedure to

1328
01:13:15.359 --> 01:13:18.960
treat voice changes and acid reflux. But I think she

1329
01:13:19.159 --> 01:13:21.039
was not in a hospital. I think she was in

1330
01:13:21.119 --> 01:13:23.960
some sort of surgery center too. So I mean, it

1331
01:13:24.039 --> 01:13:27.600
does happen. And if these are high profile cases that

1332
01:13:27.640 --> 01:13:29.760
we know about, I'm sure there's a lot more cases

1333
01:13:29.800 --> 01:13:32.399
and you know, less high profile people.

1334
01:13:32.720 --> 01:13:33.439
Yeah, for sure.

1335
01:13:33.920 --> 01:13:37.000
I hope that no one listening is, you know, driving

1336
01:13:37.039 --> 01:13:39.880
to get some procedure done today and listening to this episode,

1337
01:13:39.920 --> 01:13:41.439
because that would be quite scary.

1338
01:13:41.560 --> 01:13:44.680
Yeah, just check your check your doctor's credentials. Then part two,

1339
01:13:44.760 --> 01:13:48.920
we'll talk more about what actually happened, why Sarah didn't

1340
01:13:48.920 --> 01:13:50.760
make it through surgery, and then we'll talk about what

1341
01:13:50.800 --> 01:13:51.319
happened after.

1342
01:13:57.920 --> 01:14:00.079
I don't know if we've ever talked about this before,

1343
01:14:00.279 --> 01:14:03.119
but you have to answer something. If you were to

1344
01:14:03.119 --> 01:14:05.840
get cosmetic surgery, what would you get done.

1345
01:14:06.000 --> 01:14:08.319
I have to answer something. I don't have to answer something.

1346
01:14:08.479 --> 01:14:09.760
You can't tell me that.

1347
01:14:09.760 --> 01:14:11.079
I have to answer something.

1348
01:14:13.159 --> 01:14:14.840
Well, that's a good question, I think.

1349
01:14:14.880 --> 01:14:17.159
I mean, you're lovely, you were very handsome. Man.

1350
01:14:17.399 --> 01:14:20.319
I was doing a little bit of research on different procedures,

1351
01:14:20.479 --> 01:14:24.239
and I think I would go with the high deaf liposuction,

1352
01:14:24.760 --> 01:14:29.600
which I'm sorry, high deaf liposculpture. So it's different than liposuction.

1353
01:14:29.840 --> 01:14:33.600
It actually sculpts your ab muscles to give you a

1354
01:14:33.640 --> 01:14:37.960
six pack through searchery. Really, yes, I think that would

1355
01:14:37.960 --> 01:14:38.720
be a good one.

1356
01:14:39.079 --> 01:14:41.560
Wow. So you you were saying that you have never

1357
01:14:41.600 --> 01:14:43.239
thought of it, but then you're like, well, I'm going

1358
01:14:43.279 --> 01:14:44.720
to get high deaf ab surgery.

1359
01:14:44.800 --> 01:14:46.479
Yeah. When I was researching, I was like, oh, that

1360
01:14:46.600 --> 01:14:48.119
sounds like something great.

1361
01:14:48.279 --> 01:14:49.760
I would like to see the results.

1362
01:14:50.680 --> 01:14:53.680
Yeah, I'm not sure how well works. Okay, Well, then

1363
01:14:53.720 --> 01:14:55.880
I guess you have to answer the same question.

1364
01:14:56.279 --> 01:14:59.000
I mean, I am a mom, so I think most

1365
01:14:59.079 --> 01:15:02.119
most women would answer your you know, boob job, tummy talk,

1366
01:15:02.720 --> 01:15:05.359
but I honestly, in the next year, I really do

1367
01:15:05.399 --> 01:15:08.640
want to get botox. So yeah, I'm afraid that I'm

1368
01:15:08.640 --> 01:15:11.079
gonna go get botox and they're gonna be like, oh honey,

1369
01:15:11.239 --> 01:15:13.439
it's too late for you.

1370
01:15:13.680 --> 01:15:16.079
Why what what is I'm not even sure what botox does.

1371
01:15:16.119 --> 01:15:17.319
It just like smooth a zero.

1372
01:15:17.920 --> 01:15:22.680
Right here, they're called elevens.

1373
01:15:22.760 --> 01:15:23.560
Between her eyes.

1374
01:15:23.720 --> 01:15:27.720
Yeah, like that bad. I mean, I'm not a young person,

1375
01:15:27.960 --> 01:15:32.199
but yeah, it's just kind of I know now you're not.

1376
01:15:32.439 --> 01:15:33.600
That's all you're going to see.

1377
01:15:33.640 --> 01:15:33.840
Now.

1378
01:15:35.000 --> 01:15:40.239
We started go fund me reaching to the plastic surgeon. Yeah,

1379
01:15:40.319 --> 01:15:43.079
so it's just I wouldn't get fillers, but just you

1380
01:15:43.119 --> 01:15:45.600
know a little bit, uh, just you know, just get

1381
01:15:45.640 --> 01:15:47.439
those creases out. Yeah. Yeah.

1382
01:15:47.560 --> 01:15:50.159
I found a few other unusual procedures, so let me

1383
01:15:50.199 --> 01:15:51.079
throw these out there too.

1384
01:15:51.079 --> 01:15:55.159
And I watched the Real Housewives on you probably I

1385
01:15:55.239 --> 01:15:58.319
probably know all of them. It's shocking to me how

1386
01:15:58.359 --> 01:16:01.720
insecure people are, like out their hands, like there's like

1387
01:16:01.880 --> 01:16:04.640
hand surgery you can get now, and just like everything.

1388
01:16:04.760 --> 01:16:06.279
Well, here are a few that I thought were kind

1389
01:16:06.319 --> 01:16:10.000
of interesting. Belly button surgery. If people have an audie up,

1390
01:16:10.159 --> 01:16:12.079
you can get surgery to turn it into an inny.

1391
01:16:12.199 --> 01:16:16.800
It's called an umbilico plasty. Chubby cheek surgery. Sometimes if

1392
01:16:16.840 --> 01:16:19.920
people have chubby cheeks, it makes them feel like they

1393
01:16:20.439 --> 01:16:22.840
look like a little kid when they're not. I guess,

1394
01:16:22.920 --> 01:16:25.880
And you can get surgery to remove your chubby cheeks.

1395
01:16:26.159 --> 01:16:29.600
Gummy smile repair, Like your smile has too much gum showing,

1396
01:16:29.640 --> 01:16:30.960
you can get that fixed. I guess.

1397
01:16:31.199 --> 01:16:34.760
Well, I had in vizzileline. I finished over a year ago,

1398
01:16:35.039 --> 01:16:37.319
and I think my smile, I don't think you even

1399
01:16:37.359 --> 01:16:40.479
really noticed, but I think my smile was probably a

1400
01:16:40.479 --> 01:16:43.600
little gummier before. I think it looks nice or not.

1401
01:16:43.319 --> 01:16:44.800
You never even noticed.

1402
01:16:45.239 --> 01:16:47.920
I didn't. And then the last two I had were

1403
01:16:47.960 --> 01:16:51.319
eyelash transplants, which surprised me. If you like, when you

1404
01:16:51.359 --> 01:16:54.600
get older, you sometimes lose your eyelashes, like they become

1405
01:16:54.640 --> 01:16:57.079
less thick, and you can get transplants done for that.

1406
01:16:57.720 --> 01:17:00.680
And then the last one is dimple creation. If you

1407
01:17:00.880 --> 01:17:04.239
always wanted to have dimples, you can have dimples surgically.

1408
01:17:04.319 --> 01:17:06.600
We have one dimple, which I think is kind of

1409
01:17:06.600 --> 01:17:07.079
weird too.

1410
01:17:07.199 --> 01:17:08.079
I never noticed that.

1411
01:17:09.880 --> 01:17:13.439
It's hardly like to be. It's so sad, it's not

1412
01:17:13.640 --> 01:17:19.760
very observing, so hard to look out that this is

1413
01:17:19.840 --> 01:17:22.680
different because it's it's not like surgery. But people are

1414
01:17:22.720 --> 01:17:24.199
having freckles tattooed on.

1415
01:17:24.560 --> 01:17:28.000
Oh really Yeah, people used to want to get rid

1416
01:17:28.039 --> 01:17:31.319
of their freckles. Yeah, people like lemon juice and stuff.

1417
01:17:31.680 --> 01:17:36.479
Now you're thinking of Judy Bloom's book Freckle Juice that

1418
01:17:36.560 --> 01:17:38.119
I probably read in second grade.

1419
01:17:38.199 --> 01:17:40.000
I don't think I've read that, but maybe.

1420
01:17:40.239 --> 01:17:42.760
So we spent a lot of time together, obviously, but

1421
01:17:42.840 --> 01:17:45.640
you never look at me. That's okay. No, So I

1422
01:17:45.640 --> 01:17:48.560
have a list of things like that, we topics that

1423
01:17:48.600 --> 01:17:50.520
we wrapped the show up with, and I have one

1424
01:17:50.560 --> 01:17:52.439
here that I meant to talk about a couple of

1425
01:17:52.479 --> 01:17:55.399
weeks ago and I didn't. But it's Dolly Parton's taco

1426
01:17:55.479 --> 01:18:00.399
bell order. Okay, do you want to know what Dolly Parton,

1427
01:18:00.680 --> 01:18:04.319
who I guess had some medical issues this week. We

1428
01:18:04.359 --> 01:18:05.399
can't lose Deli Parton.

1429
01:18:05.479 --> 01:18:08.479
No, she is just she's a national treasure.

1430
01:18:08.520 --> 01:18:12.560
She has a treasure. Jane Goodall, this week she deserved

1431
01:18:12.560 --> 01:18:15.119
to live forever. Dolly Parton should live forever.

1432
01:18:15.680 --> 01:18:16.640
Well, what's her taco bell?

1433
01:18:16.760 --> 01:18:19.640
Her taco bell go to order is a Mexican pizza

1434
01:18:19.880 --> 01:18:21.359
and a soft Taco.

1435
01:18:21.199 --> 01:18:24.039
Supreme that used to feed pretty much my go to.

1436
01:18:24.479 --> 01:18:25.920
So when I saw this and I was like, gosh,

1437
01:18:25.960 --> 01:18:27.079
I know you were a big fan of the.

1438
01:18:27.079 --> 01:18:29.960
Mexican I would do a Mexican pizza and a bean burrito.

1439
01:18:30.560 --> 01:18:34.560
So, after thirty five years on the menu, the Mexican

1440
01:18:34.600 --> 01:18:38.439
Pizza was taken out in twenty twenty two, but after

1441
01:18:38.520 --> 01:18:42.000
a public outcry and a change dot org petition, it

1442
01:18:42.039 --> 01:18:42.520
was brought back.

1443
01:18:42.560 --> 01:18:44.840
It's back. Oh, I didn't realize it was better brought back.

1444
01:18:44.960 --> 01:18:46.920
Maybe it's not brought back everywhere, but.

1445
01:18:47.359 --> 01:18:50.039
You realize now you're putting a seed in my mind

1446
01:18:50.199 --> 01:18:51.119
that we're going to have to get.

1447
01:18:51.039 --> 01:18:54.239
Taco Bell for I know what I saw Taco Bell

1448
01:18:54.319 --> 01:18:56.680
in my notes. It was I am a little hungry.

1449
01:18:56.840 --> 01:18:57.840
Yeah, all right.

1450
01:18:58.239 --> 01:19:01.560
I think people worry about our diets in general and

1451
01:19:01.640 --> 01:19:05.000
worry that we don't take good care of ourselves. Yeah,

1452
01:19:05.039 --> 01:19:06.199
what do you have to say about that.

1453
01:19:06.359 --> 01:19:08.720
I think we're not bad. We like to joke about it.

1454
01:19:08.800 --> 01:19:11.479
We do like treats here, we eat.

1455
01:19:11.359 --> 01:19:13.760
Them on the podcast. I think we're pretty healthy during

1456
01:19:13.760 --> 01:19:14.079
the week.

1457
01:19:14.159 --> 01:19:15.520
Yeah, don't worry about us.

1458
01:19:15.479 --> 01:19:19.199
Other than the ice cream that someone ate out of

1459
01:19:19.239 --> 01:19:21.439
the food that I was saving.

1460
01:19:23.239 --> 01:19:25.239
I can't believe you're bringing that up at this point

1461
01:19:25.800 --> 01:19:26.560
the episode.

1462
01:19:26.920 --> 01:19:28.000
It was a little shocking.

1463
01:19:28.119 --> 01:19:30.000
I guess I should have added that to my apology.

1464
01:19:33.119 --> 01:19:35.319
I wasn't upset. I was just kind of shocked because

1465
01:19:35.359 --> 01:19:37.560
I think we went to the grocery store a couple

1466
01:19:37.600 --> 01:19:39.960
of weeks ago and like a Saturday night probably, and

1467
01:19:40.039 --> 01:19:41.840
we were like, oh, yeah, let's get some ice cream.

1468
01:19:41.960 --> 01:19:43.560
Yeah, we got a couple of Little Pine and.

1469
01:19:43.600 --> 01:19:46.800
I got like the most expensive ice cream, and it

1470
01:19:46.840 --> 01:19:49.039
was really expensive. But I'm like, well, I'll lead it

1471
01:19:49.039 --> 01:19:50.199
in like three sections.

1472
01:19:50.239 --> 01:19:53.159
And then I honestly thought you kind of forgot about it.

1473
01:19:53.239 --> 01:19:56.079
So I was like, ah, and that's true, because you're

1474
01:19:56.119 --> 01:19:57.600
more of an ice cream meter than I am. And

1475
01:19:57.640 --> 01:19:59.760
sometimes I am like, hey, I ate a little bit

1476
01:19:59.800 --> 01:20:01.840
of this, but you can have the rest. But this

1477
01:20:01.920 --> 01:20:06.399
ice cream was so good. It was from a blank

1478
01:20:06.439 --> 01:20:09.800
Slate creamery in Anna Arbor and they sold pintes at

1479
01:20:09.800 --> 01:20:13.199
the local market. But yeah, that was really good. Shout

1480
01:20:13.199 --> 01:20:16.199
out to Blake Blank Slate. Yeah, sorry, I forgive you.

1481
01:20:16.479 --> 01:20:18.199
I forgive you. That's the most important part.

1482
01:20:18.199 --> 01:20:18.840
Thank you. Well.

1483
01:20:18.880 --> 01:20:21.920
If you want to listen to part two of this episode,

1484
01:20:22.399 --> 01:20:25.520
join us on patreon dot com slash Love Mary Kill.

1485
01:20:25.680 --> 01:20:28.479
For five dollars a month, you get early ad free

1486
01:20:28.520 --> 01:20:34.199
access and a monthly bonus episode and our eternal gratitude. Actually, regardless,

1487
01:20:34.199 --> 01:20:38.800
if you're listening to this podcast, our eternal gratitude.

1488
01:20:38.239 --> 01:20:41.680
Please rate, review, follow, and subscribe. Find us on social

1489
01:20:41.760 --> 01:20:44.680
media and YouTube now, or send us an email at

1490
01:20:44.760 --> 01:20:48.840
Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. Thanks again, Christy for the

1491
01:20:48.880 --> 01:20:52.640
case recommendation, and thanks again Teresa for the snack. We

1492
01:20:52.760 --> 01:20:56.319
really appreciate it. Until next time, don't kill your husband

1493
01:20:56.359 --> 01:21:43.640
and don't kill your wife. Hi, I'm rich and I'm teen.

1494
01:21:47.680 --> 01:21:49.000
I know that was gonna happen.

1495
01:21:50.640 --> 01:21:53.520
Okay, what did that do at this time? Oh? Sure, okay,