Oct. 27, 2025

Debbie and Anthony Pignataro - Part 2

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Dr. Anthony Pignataro was a Buffalo-area plastic surgeon with a taste for luxury and a reputation for confidence (some might say arrogance). He claimed to be an innovator, even creating a bizarre “snap-on hairpiece” that bolted directly to the skull. But beneath the image of success was a trail of questionable surgeries, mounting complaints, and growing chaos at home.

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Today's snack: Sponge candy

WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina.

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If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of.

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Marriage, it's that some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill.

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Hey Tina, Hey Rich. How are you today?

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I'm okay. How are you?

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I am doing pretty good.

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Good.

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I'm glad you came back.

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Yeah, I honestly was a little upset after the last episode.

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That was distressing.

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Case. Yeah, it was disturbing for sure.

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Yeah, And I was actually reading some I read an

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article this morning about emergency rooms and like they're overwhelmed.

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We've been watching The Pit lately, which I know we're

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a little late to the game on that, but it's

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a great show, and I've been thinking, oh, it's a

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little bit, you know, it's dramatized, dramatized, it's really not

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that bad. But I was reading an article today that

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made me feel like, oh my gosh, emergency rooms are

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really just overwhelmed.

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Yeah.

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Well, we live in a rural area, so the emergency

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rooms when we've had occasion to go, have never been

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that busy. But if you're in a major metropolitan area

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like Pittsburgh.

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Yeah, it's going to be a lot busier.

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Yeah.

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I remember when I went for my gallbladder. It felt

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like I had to wait forever. I know it wasn't

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really forever, but oh you did.

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Have to wait longer than you should have. But it

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was things.

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It was a Thanksgiving weekend, so I think that's why

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they were short stuffed, even though there weren't a ton

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of people in there, but the probably only one doctor.

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For most people. This episode will air on October twenty seventh,

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so right around Halloween.

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Oh it is October fifth when we're recording this.

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We're so far ahead of the game.

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Well, we won't be for a lot.

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Are you feeling Halloween ish yet?

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Well, as we've mentioned before, we're empty nesters, so it

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feels kind of weird. We put up some I put

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up some fall decorations, but you know, it's just me

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and you here most of the time, so I didn't

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go all out.

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I put our big black inflatable cat in the front

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yard although.

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From Hammocker Slummer, which we love. We bought it last year. Yeah,

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I love it's I mean, it's a great piece. It

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was expensive, but it's really cool and the neighbor kids

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love it and it gives us a lot of great joy.

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I'll put a picture up of it.

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But the cat's having some issues though. The tail isn't

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standing up. I can't figure out why, but I need

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to go troubleshoot.

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Well, Hammocker Slummer is going out of business, which is

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a huge bummer. So all of their things have a

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lifetime warranty.

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Yeah, so that will maybe not so much anymore.

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Just when we bought it, and we paid kind of

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a lot for it, we were like, well, you know,

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there's ever an issue, we can return it.

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Yeah, now we're stuck with it.

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It's huge though, it's like thirteen feet tall or something.

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Yeah, it's really cool. And the eyes light up and

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it's yeah, it's really cool.

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We love it.

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I know we need to get rolling on this episode,

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but you love a scary movie. If you had to

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give one recommendation right now, what would your recommendation be.

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You know that answer is going to change depending on

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what day you asked me. But the first thing to

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pop into my mind, I'm going to go old school

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and say Psycho by Alfred Hitchcock. I'll never forget the

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first time I saw that movie. I was probably in

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my early twenties. It was on TV at like midnight

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and I was just I was at my mom's house

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that I was staying up late and I watched it

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and I know it's like dated now, but it freaked

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me out.

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I have never watched it for that reason, because you

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take a shower every day, and I just feel like

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it would scare me. I am a high anxiety person anyway.

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I'm the jumpiest person you'll ever meet, right, Like, it

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doesn't take much.

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I walk into a room and.

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I jump, and I'm like, oh, you scared me. I

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save it one hundred times a day. So yes, I'm

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very jumpy. So I have not watched that movie on

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purpose because I think it would disturb me.

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Well, if you had to recommend one, what would you

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pick today?

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Off the top of my head, I don't really know,

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but I like a good suspense movie.

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The other day, I finished a.

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Two part case and I was like, I'm gonna just

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watch a movie, and I watched The Drop and that

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was on Peacock.

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I think, and it was really good.

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So it was not really a horror movie, but.

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It was scary.

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So if you have Peacock, I recommend watching the Drop.

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I thought you were gonna throw out a Halloween because

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I know you're a fan of the classic kind of

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yeah slasher films.

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Yeah, that movie is well whenever we've we've watched. We

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used to watch it every year on Halloween. But it's

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really long, and it takes like forty five minutes to get.

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To any drama.

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Really, it's a little slow to get.

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The music is great in that film.

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And yeah, well, let us know if you have recommendations

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for a really good horror film.

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It's been weird because it's so warm here. The leaves

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are just starting to turn now, but it hasn't felt

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like Halloween.

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No, it really hasn't.

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Normally we'd be watching a scary movie every weekend, but

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we really haven't done that yet.

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Yeah.

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Soon, I made you a snack.

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Yeah, with unflavored gelatine. Yeah, it tastes like nothing.

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Guessing what it was? Yeah, so what were you guessing?

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Well, you would ask me last night do we have

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any unflavored gelatine? And I think we used to, but

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we don't anymore. I'm not sure where it went, but

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I know that you need gelatin for like a chocolate

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cream pie and you love a chocolate cream pie, so

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I thought it might be something to do with that.

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Gotcha, it's not what it is. So, you know I

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like to do snacks. If I can that tie into

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the location of the case. Yeah, our case takes place

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in Buffalo. Previously, when I did a Buffalo case, I

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made you Buffalo wings, right, I didn't want Those were

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really good, But I want to.

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Another guest with unflavored gelatin.

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I did a little googling and I found a candy

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that Buffalo is known for called I had never heard of,

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called sponge candy.

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Okay, have you ever heard of that? I don't think so.

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It's gonna look familiar to you because it's a lot

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like a candy that I know you are a big

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fan of.

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Is it honeycomb? Yes, I've always wanted to make that homemade,

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and I never have. That is one of my favorites

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for sure.

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Yeah.

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Well here it is. It looks perfect, but I think

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the inside is a little chewy or it's not as

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well when.

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You get the occasional chewy honey.

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Okay, Well you're gonna like this. It might stick to

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your teeth though. Okay, what did you think about my

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sponge candy.

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I think you're amazing. It's crazy to me that you

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just whipped that up this morning.

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In our kitchen. I like a good challenge, you really do.

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I think it's because you only cook for the podcast,

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so when you get the opportunity, you're like E cided

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to But it looks like professional candy. And we have

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a story near us called World Market, and that's where

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you can get violet Violet Crumble Crumb viilet Crumble, and

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that's one of my favorites. You usually put one in

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my Christmas stocking and it looks just like Violet Crumble.

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It doesn't taste quite as good, but it's really good.

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The honeycomb part came out definitely a little too dense

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and chewy, not as airy, and I like.

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The chewiness in it, but it could have just a

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smidgemore flavor. Did you think it was maybe just a

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little bland compared to Violet Crumble. But for your first

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a little bit, for your first time, that incredible and

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you did such a good I can't believe you dipped.

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I mean in this mold, there's like thirty pieces, so

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you dipped like thirty pieces of honeycomb so.

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I tempered the chocolate and I dipped.

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It, and I think i'd probably the chocolate is a

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little dark for me.

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That like a seventy percent sixty five.

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Okay, But bravo to you. It's beautiful. There's nothing you

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can't do. I really enjoyed it quite a bit.

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Good.

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Thank you.

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If you hear any loud chewing during the podcast, that

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will be me eating this sponge candy.

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Would you like to give us a quick recap of

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part one?

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Absolutely?

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In part one, we introduced doctor Anthony Pignataro, a Buffalo surgeon,

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and his wife, Debbie. Anthony came from a well off family.

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His father was a prominent and well respected surgeon, while

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Debbie grew up in a more blue collar home. The

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couple had two children, Ralph and Lauren. Early in their marriage,

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Anthony began showing classic signs of narcissism. He saw himself

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as a brilliant innovator in the field of plastic surgery.

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In fact, he even invented a permanent hair piece that

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attached to the scalp using tiny bolts embedded in the skull.

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They gave me nightmares.

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But behind the bar, Anthony was a dangerously incompetent surgeon.

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He refused to admit mistakes and insisted on doing things

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his way, even setting up an operating room in the

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basement of his clinic where he performed cosmetic procedures without

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proper equipment or trained staff. It was only a matter

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of time before tragedy struck. That tragedy came in August

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nineteen ninety seven, when twenty six year old Sarah Smith

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went in for what should have been a routine breast augmentation.

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A week later, after she'd been kept alive on life support,

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her husband Dan made the heartbreaking decision to let her

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go on September first.

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Anything that I left out of there that you think

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is worth noting.

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We didn't really talk about it at the time that

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we were recording. But another patient of his die too,

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But that was during a different because he was an

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ear nosed throat doctor before he focused on the cosmetic surgery.

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Yeah, and that one wasn't quite as blatant. It was

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a seventy two year old man. I wasn't able to

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find out too much detail about that particular surgery, But

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that one might not have been, you know, as as

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blatantly obvious that Anthony screwed up.

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I guess okay, but Anthony was not a good husband

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and he had had at least two affairs that we

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know of.

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Yes correct. In the days after the botched surgery, while

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Sarah Smith lay in a coma, Debbie was beside herself.

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Despite all the cruelty she had endured from Anthony, the infidelity,

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the insults about her weight, the constant belittling, she still

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believed he was a gifted surgeon. Debbie tortured herself with guilt,

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replaying that awful day in her mind. Had she waited

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too long to speak up when Sarah stopped breathing, could

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she have somehow prevented the disaster. Anthony, on the other hand,

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didn't seem to lose much sleep over it. Almost immediately

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he went back to work as if nothing had happened.

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He continued performing surgeries, including the same trans umbilical breast

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augmentation surgery on another patient the day after Sarah's surgery.

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He believed that he has a patient because of his incompetence,

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and then the next day he goes back in does

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the exact same surgery on another patient.

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Yeah, that's horrifying.

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In fact, Anthony performed even more surgeries than usual, trying

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to squeeze in as many paying patients as possible in

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case the Department of Health pulled the plug on his practice.

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In the evenings, he hit the gym as usual, had

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maybe a few extra drinks, and carried on with life. Overall,

247
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for Dan Smith, there was no carrying on. His twenty

248
00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:31.279
six year old wife was gone. At her wake in

249
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West Seneca, the grief was overwhelming, The story had been

250
00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:38.200
splashed across the news, and the crowd of mourners overflowed

251
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the funeral home. Sarah was buried beside her brother, across

252
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from the church where she and Dan had exchanged vows

253
00:10:44.759 --> 00:10:45.799
a few years earlier.

254
00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:49.919
That's right, her brother died young from muscular dystrophy, right,

255
00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:50.919
and they were really close.

256
00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:55.080
Yes, friends urged Dan to sue, but vengeance wasn't what

257
00:10:55.159 --> 00:10:57.919
he wanted. He didn't even care if Anthony went to prison.

258
00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:00.919
His only wish was to make sure this never harmed

259
00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:06.039
another family again. Eventually, though, Anthony's malpractice insurer did offer

260
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a settlement, and Dan set the money aside in a

261
00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:12.840
fund for the children that Sarah would never get to raise. Meanwhile,

262
00:11:12.919 --> 00:11:17.799
the West Seneca Police and the District Attorney launched their investigation. Normally,

263
00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:21.159
botched surgeries end up in civil court, not criminal, but

264
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after hearing Dan's account, the DA was convinced this case

265
00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:28.399
was different. Anthony Pignataro hadn't just made a mistake, his

266
00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:33.080
recklessness was criminal. Investigators Pat Finnerty and Chuck Craven were

267
00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:36.759
assigned to get to the truth. What they uncovered was staggering.

268
00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:40.039
When they interviewed Anthony, he claimed his lawyers had told

269
00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:42.840
him not to talk, but then he immediately launched into

270
00:11:42.879 --> 00:11:46.840
a self serving version of events, glossing over every possible mistake.

271
00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:50.240
Debbie and seventeen year old Tom Watkins, a high school

272
00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:53.320
kid who worked part time in the office, gave consistent

273
00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:57.120
accounts of the chaos that unfolded that day. In fact, Tom,

274
00:11:57.200 --> 00:12:00.799
the teenager, provided the clearest, most detailed, dec description of

275
00:12:00.840 --> 00:12:04.360
what had happened in that operating room. Then there was Jane,

276
00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:07.200
the twenty four year old LPN. She was the only

277
00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:09.759
other person in the room with any medical training, but

278
00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:13.879
her interview left investigators stunned. She admitted she didn't know

279
00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:16.279
what half the drugs were that she had been injecting.

280
00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:19.399
She just did whatever Anthony told her to do. When

281
00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:22.480
asked what it meant if a patient's oxygen levels dropped

282
00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:25.679
below eighty five, she shrugged, I don't know, but I

283
00:12:25.720 --> 00:12:29.039
know it's not good. She called a scalpel that sharp

284
00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:31.919
thing she couldn't remember the name, and she referred to

285
00:12:31.960 --> 00:12:34.840
the ambu bag, a basic life saving tool, as the

286
00:12:34.919 --> 00:12:38.559
bamboo bag or the little MASKI thing you put on

287
00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:41.679
someone's face when you want them to breathe. This was

288
00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:45.240
the team that Anthony Pignataro had assembled to administer general

289
00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:49.639
anesthesia in a dingy basement. The autopsy confirmed what Dan

290
00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:52.919
and Sarah's family already knew in their hearts. Sarah hadn't

291
00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:56.360
died of some mysterious condition or hidden defect. She had

292
00:12:56.399 --> 00:13:00.960
been given a cocktail of powerful drugs lydocane, codeine, diazepam,

293
00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:05.600
madazolam thiopental at doses so high they shut down her

294
00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:08.679
ability to breathe, and, with no ventilator in the room

295
00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:12.559
no competent staff to help her, she suffocated the official

296
00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:17.159
cause of death asphyxia due to inadequate ventilation under anesthesia.

297
00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:21.600
Armed with a warrant, investigators combed through Anthony's basement operating

298
00:13:21.679 --> 00:13:26.720
room the setup was shocking, outdated, unsafe equipment for general anesthesia,

299
00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:29.360
and diplomas hanging on the wall that turned out to

300
00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:33.080
be forgeries. On August twenty ninth, even before Sarah was

301
00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:36.679
taken off life support, the Department of Health suspended Anthony's

302
00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:40.440
medical license. But Anthony didn't see himself as the problem.

303
00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:43.200
In his bizarre journal we talked about in Part one,

304
00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:48.039
a manuscript he called MD Mass Destruction, he painted himself

305
00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:51.200
as the victim. He blamed Sarah, claiming she had done

306
00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:54.240
cocaine the night before surgery, which was not true. He

307
00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:57.799
blamed the hospital for removing her from life support. He

308
00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:00.720
even claimed her heart and liver were defected, despite the

309
00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:04.799
autopsy proving otherwise. To Anthony, everyone else was at fault,

310
00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:09.240
the patient, the hospital, the DA, the media, anyone but him.

311
00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:12.840
In January nineteen ninety eight, the district Attorney decided to

312
00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:17.279
put Anthony Pignataro's case before a grand jury. Witnesses were subpoenat,

313
00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:21.320
documents were pulled, and the evidence wasn't limited to Sarah

314
00:14:21.320 --> 00:14:25.000
Smith's death. The jury also heard about Anthony's treatment of

315
00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:26.360
Terry Lamardi.

316
00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:29.840
Terry we talked about in Part one A few weeks

317
00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:32.759
before Sarah Smith came in. He botched a tummy tuck

318
00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:34.960
on her and she went to the yar. She was

319
00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:35.879
lucky to survive.

320
00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:36.919
Okay, that's right.

321
00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:41.240
The grand jury returned six indictments manslaughter in the second

322
00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:46.799
degree for recklessly causing Sarah's death bi asphyxia, criminally negligent homicide,

323
00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:50.639
assault in the second degree for causing serious injury through

324
00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:54.799
reckless use of drugs, falsifying business records in the first

325
00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:59.080
degree for lying in his surgical report, Reckless endangerment in

326
00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:02.879
the second degree for trying to discharge Terry Lamarty from

327
00:15:02.919 --> 00:15:07.159
the hospital too soon, criminal possession of a forged instrument

328
00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:10.600
in the third degree for hanging a fake American Board

329
00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:15.480
of Odolaryngology diploma on his wall. The manslaughter charge carried

330
00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:19.320
the heaviest penalty, up to fifteen years in prison. Anthony

331
00:15:19.399 --> 00:15:23.240
was stunned, outraged. How could anyone accuse him of being

332
00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:26.799
a criminal. The attorneys urged him to consider a plea bargain.

333
00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:30.960
Doctors almost never faced criminal charges from ile practice, and

334
00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:33.639
it was impossible to predict how a jury might view

335
00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:37.679
this case. The DA wasn't out for blood. Their priority

336
00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:41.240
was simply to make sure Anthony Pignataro would never endanger

337
00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:45.159
another patient again. But Anthony saw himself as the victim.

338
00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:49.279
He refused to admit guilt. He was determined to fight

339
00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:53.000
through it all. Debbie stayed by his side. Her belief

340
00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:56.120
in his surgical skills had finally started to waver, but

341
00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:59.879
for appearances and maybe out of sheer habit, she stood

342
00:15:59.879 --> 00:16:02.919
with her husband. What she didn't know was that while

343
00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:07.440
she defended him publicly, Anthony was seeing another woman named Tammy,

344
00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:11.120
who he'd met at Gold's gym earlier in nineteen ninety seven.

345
00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:15.039
As the trial date loomed, Anthony's bravado gave a way

346
00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:19.159
to practicality. He struck a deal. He pled guilty to

347
00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:23.240
criminally negligent homicide. As part of the plea, he agreed

348
00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:26.519
to permanently surrender his medical license and to give up

349
00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:28.200
any right to appeal his sentence.

350
00:16:28.759 --> 00:16:29.840
That is very surprising.

351
00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:31.840
It is a little surprising that he would give that up.

352
00:16:31.879 --> 00:16:33.919
He must have seen the writing on the wall, that

353
00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:36.080
he knew it was going to happen one way or another.

354
00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:39.600
On August fourth, nineteen ninety eight, Anthony appeared in court

355
00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:43.279
for sentencing Shrew to form he couldn't resist turning the

356
00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:44.799
spotlight back on himself.

357
00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:46.080
He said, the.

358
00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:49.279
Loss of one's patient will forever haunt any moral doctor.

359
00:16:49.639 --> 00:16:53.000
Whatever determination you made a creed cannot be worse than

360
00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:55.879
this pain. This pain alone, I assure you, would be

361
00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:59.759
sufficient to tear any physician from making the same mistake

362
00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:02.679
in the future. But my pain is even greater than that.

363
00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:05.119
If you could see the look of disappointment in the

364
00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:07.480
eyes of my son, the look of fear in my

365
00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:10.079
daughter's eyes, if you could see the pain in my

366
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:13.599
wife and my mother's heart, the disgrace and failing your

367
00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:17.440
father's memory and reputation, you would know the pain I

368
00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:22.559
feel every moment. Oh boy, just the other day, the

369
00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:28.119
Shawn Combs was sentenced. I mean, it's just these people,

370
00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:32.200
these narcissists, the statements that they release upon you know,

371
00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:34.440
their sentencing is just such Bs.

372
00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:36.279
Yes, for sure, it may have.

373
00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:40.079
Sounded heartfelt at first, but listen closely. Every word was

374
00:17:40.119 --> 00:17:45.559
about his pain, his humiliation, his loss of face. Not Sarah,

375
00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:49.240
not Dan, not the young life cut short with Anthony.

376
00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:52.759
It was always about Anthony. In the end, the judge

377
00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:57.279
followed the DA's recommendation six months in prison, five years

378
00:17:57.319 --> 00:18:00.119
probation and a twenty five hundred dollars fine.

379
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:02.119
It was a slap on the wrist.

380
00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:05.720
Many of his former patients were angry, disappointed that he

381
00:18:05.720 --> 00:18:07.799
wouldn't surve real time for what he'd done.

382
00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:10.400
Still, there was some relief.

383
00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:15.839
At least finally, doctor Anthony Pignataro would never practice medicine again.

384
00:18:16.279 --> 00:18:17.640
What do you think about that sentence?

385
00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:20.640
I mean, it's very light.

386
00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:22.720
It makes me mad.

387
00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:26.240
Yeah, I'm just curious if there were other patients that

388
00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:30.400
must have had some lingering problems from the surgeries that

389
00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:31.079
he performed.

390
00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:33.279
Yeah, there definitely were. I didn't find a lot of

391
00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:36.519
information about the other patients other than Terry Lamarty, who

392
00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:38.640
we talked about, but there were definitely others.

393
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:41.640
If Anthony kept his nose clean, he would only serve

394
00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:44.960
about four months behind bars, So he tried to keep

395
00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:48.160
his head down. But there was one problem. For years,

396
00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:52.319
Anthony had been feeding an addiction by stealing painkillers from

397
00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:57.319
patients from Debbie from anywhere he could. Now locked away,

398
00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:01.759
he had no supply. That's when another inmate, Arnie Ledovich,

399
00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:03.079
took him under his wing.

400
00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:06.440
I should mention Arnie Ludovich is a pseudonym that Anne

401
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:07.559
Rule used in her book.

402
00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:11.240
Arnie told Anthony that he could smuggle heroin into the prison.

403
00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:15.279
For Anthony, heroin was an easy substitute for the painkillers

404
00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:19.519
he craved. Life inside wasn't easy for the once flamboyant doctor.

405
00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:24.359
He wasn't allowed to wear this too. Fay his bald

406
00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:28.559
head with metal screws sticking out true stairs, I.

407
00:19:28.519 --> 00:19:32.519
Love this be for laughing, but really funny.

408
00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:35.119
Was a little obsessed with these screws and the whole

409
00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:35.960
two pay business.

410
00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:36.240
Yea.

411
00:19:36.680 --> 00:19:41.200
Other prisoners called him Frankenstein and figured he was a lunatic.

412
00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:46.119
Despite the humiliation, Anthony had steady support Debbie, the kids,

413
00:19:46.119 --> 00:19:49.400
and his mother visited faithfully twice a week. He called

414
00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:52.759
them collect whenever he could, and exchanged letters with his children.

415
00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:56.960
Debbie clung to hope. Maybe this would finally change him,

416
00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:00.759
Maybe prison would break through his arrogance. Anthony spent much

417
00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:03.519
of his time working out, and when he was released

418
00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:06.240
after just four months, he bragged that he was in

419
00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:09.319
the best physical shape of his life. But he's like

420
00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:11.200
completely addicted to heroin at this point.

421
00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:11.880
Right yes.

422
00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:14.799
Back home, he played the role of family man. His

423
00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:18.039
first day back, he watched hours of Ralph's junior high

424
00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:21.440
football games on video, the season Anthony had missed while

425
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:25.240
locked up. Ralph, the undefeated quarterback, was overjoyed that his

426
00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:30.359
dad finally seemed interested. Anthony also paid attention to Lauren's gymnastics,

427
00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:34.039
encouraging her routines. For Debbie, it was like the husband

428
00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:37.480
she always wanted had finally come home. He wasn't drinking,

429
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:40.960
he was attentive. He even threw himself into his community

430
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:45.440
service at a therapeutic writing center for underprivileged and disabled kids.

431
00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:48.599
The work seemed to soften him, to give him purpose.

432
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:51.759
The couple capped off this new beginning by renewing their

433
00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:55.279
wedding vows at the very church where they'd first been married.

434
00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:57.960
For Debbie, was a symbol of their fresh start, a

435
00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:02.119
promise that maybe, just maybe the worst was finally behind them.

436
00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:03.920
So what were they doing for money?

437
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:06.680
We'll talk a little more about that. But Debbie was working,

438
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.119
Anthony was going to try to find a job out

439
00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:11.599
of prison. But they always had his mother to fall

440
00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:13.440
back on. His parents had a lot of money.

441
00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:15.279
Oh okay, his dad was gone, so.

442
00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:18.480
Lena, his mom was always willing to help out as well.

443
00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:21.000
Okay, and again I don't think if we mentioned this

444
00:21:21.079 --> 00:21:23.920
in part two, but his father was a well known

445
00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:27.119
physician who had passed away not that long before. Right,

446
00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:29.240
We'll be back after a break.

447
00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:40.480
But the fresh start didn't last long. Anthony's mistress, Tammy

448
00:21:40.599 --> 00:21:43.240
had never really gone away. She had written to him

449
00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:45.559
while he was in prison, and he had written back.

450
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:48.759
Tammy's jealous ex boyfriend, who happened to be a lawyer,

451
00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.079
discovered the affair and decided to blow it up. He

452
00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:56.359
mailed Debbie a letter exposing Anthony's relationship with Tammy and

453
00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:00.279
enclosed one of Anthony's prison love letters as proof. This

454
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:02.480
is the second time now that Debbie has found out

455
00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:04.680
about an affair in kind of a weird way, like

456
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:09.079
from somebody sending her something or sharing something a proof

457
00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:10.680
of Anthony's infidelity.

458
00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:12.519
That does seem very cruel.

459
00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:14.559
Yeah, and I'm not sure what the best way to

460
00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:16.880
find out that your spouse is having an affair, but.

461
00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:20.119
Yeah, probably no good way. But that does seem, especially.

462
00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:22.880
Especially during this time when Debbie is having this to

463
00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:25.480
do sense that they're having a fresh start and maybe

464
00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:29.039
Anthony has changed. That must have been particularly devastating at

465
00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:29.799
that time.

466
00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:32.839
Well for Debbie. It was crushing. She had stood by

467
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:38.000
Anthony through humiliation, disgrace and prison. She had renewed her vows,

468
00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:41.279
convinced herself that he had finally changed, and now this

469
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:44.799
she felt like a fool. But instead of confronting him

470
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:48.039
with rage, Debbie played it cool. She showed him the letter,

471
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:51.039
pretended she was willing to move past it, and quietly

472
00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:54.319
began calculating her next steps. What would be best for

473
00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:57.599
her children? Could she finally break free? And as much

474
00:22:57.640 --> 00:22:59.680
as she hated to admit it, some part of her

475
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:03.839
still loved him. Meanwhile, Anthony was drifting. He couldn't land

476
00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:06.519
a job, not that he seemed to be trying very hard.

477
00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:09.720
Their finances were in free fall, and it was only

478
00:23:09.799 --> 00:23:13.720
Anthony's mother, Lena, who kept the family afloat. Anthony bought

479
00:23:13.720 --> 00:23:17.440
Debbie a new Cadillac as a celebration of their renewed vows,

480
00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:20.039
but of course he drove it most of the time.

481
00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:24.119
To Anthony, appearances mattered more than anything. A man had

482
00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:27.359
to look successful, even if he was broke. He also

483
00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:31.680
reconnected with his old prison heroine supplier, Arnie Leedovich. Arnie

484
00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:34.240
had been released around the same time, and the two

485
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:39.039
began shooting up Heroin together. Sometimes Anthony even brought Tammy along.

486
00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:43.440
Debbie knew something was wrong. He was constantly withdrawing money

487
00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:47.119
from their bank account, always dazed and checked out. Then

488
00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:50.440
one day in late February nineteen ninety nine, she happened

489
00:23:50.440 --> 00:23:53.519
to drive by Tammy's house. Parked in the driveway was

490
00:23:53.559 --> 00:23:56.920
her Cadillac, the car that Anthony had claimed for himself.

491
00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:00.400
That was a breaking point. Debbie pulled in after her

492
00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:04.880
minivan in Tammy's driveway and drove the Cadillac home a

493
00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:07.799
good way to send a message, huh yeah. When Anthony

494
00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:10.559
saw the minivan, he knew instantly what had happened. He

495
00:24:10.599 --> 00:24:13.759
called Debbie, desperate, insisting it's not what it looks like.

496
00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:17.079
Debbie hung up. She was fed up. She changed the

497
00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:19.880
locks on the house, drained nearly all the money from

498
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:23.119
their joint bank account, leaving only five thousand dollars behind.

499
00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:26.640
Message received. Anthony moved into an apartment of his own.

500
00:24:27.079 --> 00:24:29.720
He called home daily to speak with Ralph and Lauren,

501
00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:32.880
but Debbie refused to speak with him. The fallout with

502
00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:36.759
Anthony sent Debbie spiraling. She sank into a deep depression.

503
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:39.839
Her neck injuries left her in constant pain, which made

504
00:24:39.880 --> 00:24:43.799
it almost impossible to sleep. Exhausted and overwhelmed, she turned

505
00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:47.400
to a psychiatrist who prescribed xanax. It helped a little,

506
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:51.240
but never enough. Two days after finding her Cadillac parked

507
00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:54.440
at Tammy's house, Debbie hit a breaking point. She took

508
00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:57.480
two xanax. When the pills didn't seem to help, she

509
00:24:57.599 --> 00:25:01.279
swallowed two more. Her thoughts dull, her body heavy, she

510
00:25:01.319 --> 00:25:04.519
reached out for more again. The moment the last pills

511
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:07.839
went down, panic set in. She realized she might have

512
00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:11.359
gone too far. Desperate, she called her mother, who immediately

513
00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:15.000
dialed nine one one. Debbie was hospitalized for a couple

514
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:17.839
of days, just long enough for the excess xanax to

515
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:21.440
clear from her system. Later, she insisted it wasn't a

516
00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:24.640
suicide attempt. She wasn't trying to end her life. She said,

517
00:25:24.680 --> 00:25:28.400
she just felt exhausted from the pain, from the sleepless nights,

518
00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:33.319
from Anthony's betrayals. She wanted relief, not death. But regardless

519
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:36.240
of her intent, the incident left to Mark, and soon

520
00:25:36.359 --> 00:25:39.279
what Debbie saw as a moment of weakness would come

521
00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:41.400
back to haunt her in ways that she could never

522
00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:45.319
have imagined through all of this, Anthony's mother, Lena, had

523
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:48.839
always been his fiercest defender. To her, Anthony could do

524
00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:52.119
no wrong. Debbie, with her blue collar background, had never

525
00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:55.839
measured up in Lena's eyes, but Anthony's affair with Tammy

526
00:25:55.920 --> 00:25:59.359
crossed the line that even Lena couldn't ignore. Furious that

527
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:02.400
her son had been destroyed his family, she unleashed her

528
00:26:02.440 --> 00:26:05.759
anger in a blistering letter. I'm not playing games with

529
00:26:05.799 --> 00:26:08.640
you now or ever, she wrote. You and your whore

530
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:11.599
deserve each other. I hate you both. If you think

531
00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:13.359
you can do this to your family and get away

532
00:26:13.359 --> 00:26:15.599
with it, you are nuts. I will not let you

533
00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:18.519
hurt or scar my grandchildren. I will get even with

534
00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:22.039
you before I die. You don't deserve the Pigmataro name,

535
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:25.000
she went. Wow, I know this is a brutal letter

536
00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:28.960
to receive from your mom. She went further. She told

537
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:31.160
Anthony she was cutting him out of her will, that

538
00:26:31.240 --> 00:26:33.920
he shouldn't bother showing up to her funeral, and that

539
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:37.400
she intended to advise Debbie to sue him. She closed

540
00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:40.319
with a line that must have stung. I never thought

541
00:26:40.359 --> 00:26:42.839
I would say it, but I'm glad Daddy's gone. He

542
00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:45.839
can't see what you are doing to us. The letter

543
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:50.119
hit its mark. For once, Anthony seemed truly remorseful. He

544
00:26:50.200 --> 00:26:52.680
began showing up at the house playing the role of

545
00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:57.960
the repentant husband, apologetic, attentive, considerate. When Debbie underwent her

546
00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:01.160
fifth and next surgery that April, Anthony was suddenly the

547
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:04.400
picture of support. He visited her in the hospital, cared

548
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:07.680
for the kids, and presented himself as the best version

549
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:09.160
of Anthony Pignataro.

550
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:11.039
Yeah, we've seen that before, Anthony.

551
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:15.559
With Anthony, that best version never lasted long. Even as

552
00:27:15.640 --> 00:27:18.960
Anthony played the part of the reformed husband, Debbie couldn't

553
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:22.119
shake her unease. She was nervous about being alone in

554
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:25.319
the house, especially after Anthony told her he had received

555
00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:29.240
a death threat. Then came the vandalism. One night, someone

556
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:33.400
spray painted killer, Killer Killer across her sliding glass doors

557
00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:37.880
and scrawled die fucker on the fence. Debbie was terrified.

558
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:40.839
She reported it to the police, but there were no leads.

559
00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:44.119
What nagged at her was the silence of her dog, Polo.

560
00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:48.799
Polo barked at everyone, delivery drivers, neighbors, strangers walking by,

561
00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:52.119
But the night of the vandalism, Polo hadn't made a sound.

562
00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:55.200
There was one person he never barked at, and that

563
00:27:55.359 --> 00:27:58.839
was Anthony. In May, Anthony asked if he could spend

564
00:27:58.839 --> 00:28:02.400
the night. Hadn't been sleeping well, and with the vandalism

565
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:05.319
still fresh in her mind, she wanted the security of

566
00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:08.400
another adult in the house. She asked him point blank

567
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:11.759
if he was still seeing Tammy. He swore it was over,

568
00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:15.359
and Debbie agreed to let him stay around the same time,

569
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:18.480
Anthony lined up a job interview in Philadelphia with a

570
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:22.480
surgical supply company. Driving across state lines was a clear

571
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:26.240
violation of his probation, but he went anyway. He didn't

572
00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:29.400
get the job. By the summer, Anthony was spending more

573
00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:32.720
and more time at the duplex. His clothes disappeared from

574
00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:36.319
his apartment and reappeared in Debbie's closet. By July of

575
00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:40.319
nineteen ninety nine, he was essentially back home. Debbie, still

576
00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:44.559
shaken by threats and vandalism, decided it was safer easier

577
00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:46.319
to let him back in for good.

578
00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:50.240
Anthony decided what the family needed was a change of scenery.

579
00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:53.599
All of his siblings had moved to Florida. One was

580
00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:57.559
a position, the others ran a string of dairy queen franchises.

581
00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:01.519
So in Florida, you can probably your dairy queen open

582
00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:02.400
year round.

583
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:03.279
Here.

584
00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:06.119
If you're in Florida, you'd probably we close them like

585
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:10.480
from this time of year. They're closed usually till March exactly.

586
00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:13.279
Anthony figured they could find a place for him there,

587
00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:18.000
maybe managing the family business, maybe reinventing himself. There was

588
00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:21.599
just one problem, probation. He wasn't allowed.

589
00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:22.119
To leave New York.

590
00:29:22.599 --> 00:29:26.599
His lawyer thought transferring probation to Florida wouldn't be difficult,

591
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:30.200
but then Judge Tillis reviewed the request and he flatly

592
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:34.359
denied it. The judge explained his concern Florida was too

593
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:37.720
close to Puerto Rico, where Anthony had gone to medical school,

594
00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:40.799
and the rest of the Caribbean. If Anthony wanted to

595
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:44.359
vanish and quietly start practicing medicine again, it would be

596
00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:48.359
far too easy. Anthony was furious, but Debbie felt a

597
00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:51.319
quiet sense of relief. She didn't want to uproot her

598
00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:54.880
children or leave behind her mother and brother. Still, the

599
00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:59.480
family needed income. With Anthony unemployable, Debbie took a job

600
00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:03.680
as a receipt ouptionist in a pediatrician's office. Her modest paycheck,

601
00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:08.079
supplemented by Lena's support, was all that kept the household afloat.

602
00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:11.559
Not long after Anthony began working his way back into

603
00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:15.160
Debbie's home and good graces, her health began to falter.

604
00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:19.440
In May, she was struck with sudden, excruciating stomach pain

605
00:30:19.759 --> 00:30:24.559
and rushed to the er. The doctor suspected pancreatitis. When

606
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:27.480
the pain subsided, they sent her home, and Debby chalked

607
00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:30.400
it up to stress. God knew she'd had enough of that.

608
00:30:31.079 --> 00:30:34.039
But the relief didn't last. Over the next month, Debby

609
00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:38.119
continued to feel sick. She had waves of severe abdominal pain,

610
00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:43.119
bouts of vomiting, and a constant bloated, distended feeling. Eating

611
00:30:43.160 --> 00:30:47.559
became difficult, food wouldn't stay down. As the weeks went by,

612
00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:51.039
her strength drained away. Some days she couldn't do anything

613
00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:51.880
but lie in bed.

614
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:54.000
She stopped wanting to leave the house.

615
00:30:54.599 --> 00:30:57.359
There were good days and bad days, but no pattern,

616
00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:02.400
no explanation. Anthony suddenly became the picture of a devoted husband,

617
00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:05.480
stepping in to care for Debbie and the children. Her

618
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:08.519
mother pitched in too, picking up groceries and helping around

619
00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:12.400
the house. By July, the bad days outnumbered the good.

620
00:31:12.920 --> 00:31:18.000
Debbie began missing work more and more. Food tasted strange, metallic,

621
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:22.880
Her memory faltered, life blurred into a haze. One day,

622
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:25.960
she was so disoriented that she wandered into a neighbour's

623
00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:29.440
home without realizing it. She couldn't explain what she was

624
00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:33.440
doing there. On July twenty first, she was hospitalized again.

625
00:31:34.039 --> 00:31:38.599
Doctors remained convinced it was pancreatitis, but couldn't explain the cause.

626
00:31:39.160 --> 00:31:42.920
When asked what she had eaten, Debbie struggled to remember. Finally,

627
00:31:43.000 --> 00:31:45.559
she recalled a bowl of lipt in soup Anthony had

628
00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:48.799
made for her just before her symptoms had worsened. Her

629
00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:52.079
daughter Lauren had eaten some too, and within hours was

630
00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:57.039
violently ill, vomiting and missing her gymnastics meet. Doctors kept

631
00:31:57.079 --> 00:32:00.559
Debby in the hospital for four days, but answers now came.

632
00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:04.640
On July twenty fifth, she was once again discharged. The

633
00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:08.200
next two weeks at home were a blur. Debbie's health spiraled.

634
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:11.519
On August eighth, the friend stopped by and was horrified

635
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:15.559
by her appearance. Debbie was gaunt, weak, barely able to stand.

636
00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:19.599
The friend confronted Anthony shouldn't Debbie be in the hospital,

637
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:22.759
Anthony snapped, I'm a doctor. Don't you think I would

638
00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:25.200
know what's best for her. She's much better off under

639
00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:28.640
my supervision. To other friends and family, he brushed it off,

640
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:31.480
Oh she'll be all right, just a little virus. But

641
00:32:31.559 --> 00:32:34.599
Debbie wasn't all right by now. She could barely walk.

642
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:40.000
Her limbs alternated between numbness and agonizing pain. Finally, Anthony

643
00:32:40.039 --> 00:32:43.359
relented and took her back to the hospital. Doctors ran

644
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:50.279
test after test, lime disease, unlikely, giambret no meningitis, spinal

645
00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:53.519
tap rolled it out. Despite their efforts, they were baffled.

646
00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:55.960
Debbie's condition was worsening, and.

647
00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:57.440
No one could explain why.

648
00:32:58.079 --> 00:33:01.920
At last, doctors began to suspect something beyond illness. They

649
00:33:01.960 --> 00:33:06.920
considered toxins. Debbie loved gardening. She could have accidentally ingested

650
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:10.440
a chemical or a fertilizer. They ran urine tests for

651
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:15.440
possible poisons. The results stunned them. Debbie's body contained arsenic,

652
00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:19.640
not just to trace, but a massive, almost unimaginable amount,

653
00:33:20.200 --> 00:33:24.359
more than twenty nine thousand micrograms per liter. It was

654
00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:27.119
a number so high that doctors could barely process it.

655
00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:30.680
They had never seen anything like it before. Frankly, they

656
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:34.880
couldn't believe Debbie was still alive. Suddenly, all her baffling

657
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:38.720
symptoms fell into place. The numbness and memory loss pointed

658
00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:43.200
to chronic exposure small doses of arsenic over time. The

659
00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:47.119
waves of vomiting, diarrhea and agonizing pain were signs of

660
00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:52.039
acute exposure. A massive dose given all at once, someone

661
00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:56.960
had been poisoning Debbie. Anthony, of course, rejected the diagnosis.

662
00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:01.480
He insisted the doctors were wrong. In his medical opinion,

663
00:34:01.880 --> 00:34:06.119
Debbie simply needed her gallbladder removed. He practically demanded they

664
00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:10.800
perform a Chola systectomy. Her doctors refused. Surgery in her

665
00:34:10.840 --> 00:34:14.519
fragile state would have been a death sentence. Instead, they

666
00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:18.360
started Debbie on coalation therapy, a grueling treatment that uses

667
00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:21.559
binding agents to pull arsenic from the body so that

668
00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:25.320
it can be excreted. But Debbie's levels were so dangerously

669
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:29.280
high that even with treatment, survival was far from certain.

670
00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:32.920
The process would take nineteen long days, and no one

671
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:35.880
knew if she had that much time. So we've done

672
00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:39.239
other cases where we've had arsenic poisoning, and Debbie is

673
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:41.960
really lucky that she's still alive at this point, because

674
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:45.760
some people like their bodies just shut down. Autumn Cline

675
00:34:46.280 --> 00:34:48.119
was a case that I did not that long ago,

676
00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:50.880
and yeah, she was in really, really bad shape.

677
00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:53.159
It is really amazing that she was still alive.

678
00:34:53.800 --> 00:34:56.960
By law, a diagnosis of arsenic poisoning had to be

679
00:34:57.039 --> 00:35:00.960
reported to authorities for the DA and investigat Pat finner

680
00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:03.840
Tea and Chuck Craven, the same team who had worked

681
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:07.079
on the Sarah Smith case. The news came as no surprise.

682
00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:11.519
Another woman close to Anthony Pignataro was in critical condition.

683
00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:15.719
They contacted poison Control to get expert advice. When they

684
00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:19.039
explained that the patient's arsenic levels were over twenty nine

685
00:35:19.079 --> 00:35:23.880
thousand micrograms per leader, the expert interrupted, when's the funeral?

686
00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:28.440
Hearing that Debbie was still alive left them stunned. Investigators

687
00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:31.280
sat down with Anthony and asked him directly, did you

688
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:36.079
try to kill your wife? Anthony looked down, hesitated, then muttered, well,

689
00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:38.800
I can see how someone would think that. It wasn't

690
00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:42.400
a confession, but his body language told the investigators everything

691
00:35:42.440 --> 00:35:45.440
they needed to know. Anthony tried to spin the story.

692
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:49.719
He admitted he and Debbie had marital problems, but insisted.

693
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:50.719
Those were behind them.

694
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:55.119
Then he floated his own theories. Maybe terrorists had poisoned

695
00:35:55.159 --> 00:35:56.639
the county's water supply.

696
00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:59.000
It makes perfect sense, doesn't it, Miss.

697
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:00.960
But no one else in the name her hood was sick.

698
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:04.519
When that didn't stick, he blamed Dan Smith, the widower

699
00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:08.800
of Sarah Smith, suggesting this was his revenge. But Dan

700
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:12.159
had moved away long ago, and the evidence showed Debbie

701
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:16.400
had been poisoned repeatedly over time. That theory didn't hold

702
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:20.920
much water either. Meanwhile, Debbie began to rally. On August

703
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:24.360
twenty seventh, she left the ICU. The numbness in her

704
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:27.920
arms and legs had turned into searing pain, which to

705
00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:30.480
the doctor's was actually a hopeful sign that her nerves

706
00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:34.440
weren't completely destroyed. It looked like she would survive, but

707
00:36:34.760 --> 00:36:38.639
recovery would be long. Doctors doubted she'd ever walk again.

708
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:41.760
Physical therapy focused on her arms and hands in the

709
00:36:41.800 --> 00:36:44.320
hope that she could one day at least feed herself

710
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:48.239
and hold a pen. Strangely, Debbie never asked how she

711
00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:50.920
could have been poisoned. Maybe she didn't want to know,

712
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:54.679
or maybe she wasn't denial. She even suggested that Anthony

713
00:36:54.679 --> 00:36:58.039
and the children be tested for arsenic exposure, remembering how

714
00:36:58.119 --> 00:37:01.519
Lauren had been sick after lippd in soup. All of

715
00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:05.039
them tested within a normal range, though Laurence levels were

716
00:37:05.079 --> 00:37:09.000
slightly elevated. Debbie's mental faculties are still okay.

717
00:37:09.199 --> 00:37:10.840
I think so. Yeah. I think she went through a

718
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:13.480
period where she was in a fog, but I think

719
00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:17.159
as she recovered in the hospital, her mental acuity came back.

720
00:37:17.239 --> 00:37:17.960
That's amazing.

721
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:22.239
Family tensions boiled over at the hospital. Anthony's mother, Lena,

722
00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:25.000
who had briefly turned against her son after the affair,

723
00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:28.559
was now firmly back in his corner. With Debbie fighting

724
00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:31.320
for her life. Lena showed up to lash out at

725
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:34.159
her daughter in law. You did this to yourself and

726
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:37.440
you're trying to frame my son, she snapped. If you

727
00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:39.239
really believe that, then get.

728
00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:39.599
Out of here.

729
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:43.760
Debbie shot back, you know what you did, you liar, liar,

730
00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:48.199
Lena screamed. Debbie's brother Carmine ordered her to leave and

731
00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:49.559
she never visited again.

732
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:52.840
That is nuts, it really is. And she knew her

733
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:53.519
her son.

734
00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:57.440
Was yeah, and Debbie never once even acuesday anthety of

735
00:37:57.480 --> 00:37:59.480
doing it, so it wasn't like Debbie was trying to

736
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:02.360
frame him. Lena seemed like even the letter that she

737
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:05.079
wrote to Anthony that we read a little bit of earlier,

738
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:08.719
she just seems to kind of she seems sort of extreme,

739
00:38:08.840 --> 00:38:11.480
like she kind of goes from one extreme to the other, Like, Anthony,

740
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:14.000
you're the worst person in the world, Debbie, You're trying

741
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:15.320
to frame myself for murder.

742
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:19.480
Anthony, in contrast, was the picture of devotion. He visited

743
00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:22.400
Debbie every day, reassuring her that they were a team

744
00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:27.119
and needed to stick together. Investigators pressed on. They collected

745
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:31.000
a sample of Debbie's hair, knowing arsenic leaves a timeline

746
00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:35.320
in the strands. The results were damning. Debbie's arsenic levels

747
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:38.719
were normal until June that may began to creep upward.

748
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:43.199
In July, they spiked dramatically. Between August tenth and August

749
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:47.559
twenty sixth, the levels surged again, showing two massive doses

750
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:50.519
layered on top of weeks of chronic exposure.

751
00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:52.880
It's one of the most interesting things I've learned in

752
00:38:53.039 --> 00:38:56.360
doing these cases when there's arsenic poisoning, that the hair

753
00:38:56.920 --> 00:38:58.159
is essentially like a timeline.

754
00:38:58.239 --> 00:38:59.320
Yeah, that is really interesting.

755
00:38:59.360 --> 00:38:59.960
It's really cool.

756
00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:05.280
The conclusion was undeniable. Debby had been poisoned deliberately, repeatedly,

757
00:39:05.559 --> 00:39:08.840
with both small daily doses and at least two major

758
00:39:08.920 --> 00:39:13.559
attempts to finish her off. Investigators were certain Anthony was responsible,

759
00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:17.599
but they faced two problems. Debbie wasn't turning at her husband,

760
00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:20.280
and they still hadn't found the source of the arsenic.

761
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:23.880
A search of the home turned up nothing. Lauren mentioned

762
00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:26.920
that her father once placed small tins of aunt poison

763
00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:30.400
around the house, but none were recovered. We'll be back

764
00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:31.280
after a break.

765
00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:40.679
While Debbie was still in the hospital fighting to recover,

766
00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:44.239
she and Anthony were blindsided. Both were served with a

767
00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:48.599
petition alleging that Ralph and Lauren were neglected children. The

768
00:39:48.679 --> 00:39:53.000
state was considering removing them from their parents' custody. For Debbie,

769
00:39:53.119 --> 00:39:56.519
it was humiliating. She believed it stemmed from her request

770
00:39:56.599 --> 00:40:00.239
that the children be tested for arsenic. Instead of protecting them,

771
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:03.599
she was now accused of failing them. For the time being,

772
00:40:03.719 --> 00:40:07.840
the kids were placed with Debbie's brother, Carmine and his wife. Meanwhile,

773
00:40:07.960 --> 00:40:11.480
investigators looking into Debbie's poisoning caught a break, and it

774
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:15.679
came from an unlikely source. Arnie Leedevitch, Anthony's old prison

775
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:19.519
buddy and heroine supplier, saw the news about Debbie's poisoning

776
00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:23.400
and contacted authorities. By then, Arnie was in custody on

777
00:40:23.480 --> 00:40:27.079
misdemeanor drug charges. The DA made it clear there would

778
00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:29.599
be no deals. The only thing they could offer was

779
00:40:29.639 --> 00:40:33.880
immunity for whatever he revealed. Arnie didn't care. He didn't

780
00:40:33.880 --> 00:40:37.320
want leniency. What he asked for instead was help getting

781
00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:40.840
into a long term rehab program. And then he dropped

782
00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:44.719
the bomb. Anthony, he said, had a girlfriend named Tammy.

783
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:49.159
The authorities weren't aware of his girlfriend. The three of them, Anthony, Tammy,

784
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:52.960
and Arnie had done heroin together on multiple occasions. But

785
00:40:53.079 --> 00:40:56.519
that wasn't all. Back in May, Anthony had asked Arnie

786
00:40:56.559 --> 00:41:00.239
where he could get poison. At first, Arne brushed it off,

787
00:41:00.440 --> 00:41:04.199
but in June Anthony raised the subject again. He claimed

788
00:41:04.239 --> 00:41:07.639
that Debbie was driving him crazy, checking up on him constantly.

789
00:41:08.039 --> 00:41:11.039
She had to go. Anthony told him that was right

790
00:41:11.079 --> 00:41:14.760
around the time Debbie first began feeling sick. Arnie told

791
00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:17.960
investigators he had made plenty of mistakes as a drug addict,

792
00:41:18.039 --> 00:41:19.280
but murder wasn't one.

793
00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:19.599
Of them.

794
00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:23.159
He wanted no part of Anthony's plans. He agreed to

795
00:41:23.159 --> 00:41:26.360
cooperate to make sure Anthony could never hurt anyone again.

796
00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:31.000
Investigators cross checked his story against phone logs and prison records.

797
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:35.920
The relationship between Anthony and Arnie was real, their contact undeniable.

798
00:41:36.199 --> 00:41:39.679
Everything lined up for the first time, investigators had a

799
00:41:39.719 --> 00:41:43.840
credible insider willing to testify. Through all of this, Debbie

800
00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:47.320
still wasn't ready to turn against Anthony. The DA knew

801
00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:50.719
they needed her cooperation, so they sent in Sharon Simon,

802
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:55.159
their victim's advocate, to build trust. It worked. Sharon and

803
00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:59.519
Debbie connected almost immediately. Sharon became less like an advocate

804
00:41:59.559 --> 00:42:03.039
and more like a therapist. She gently asked Debbie about

805
00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:08.239
her childhood, about losing her baby girl, about losing her father. Slowly,

806
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:12.519
Debbie opened up. Over time, Sharon helped Debbie see something

807
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:15.760
that she hadn't admitted to herself. Somewhere along the way,

808
00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:19.400
she had lost her own identity. She had poured herself

809
00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:23.280
into Anthony's career, into keeping their marriage together, into raising

810
00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:27.079
her children. There was nothing left for herself. She couldn't

811
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:30.280
imagine a life without Anthony, because her whole world had

812
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:33.719
been built around him. Sharon didn't push too hard, but

813
00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:37.400
she sensed the truth. Deep down. Debbie knew who had

814
00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:40.880
poisoned her. She just wasn't ready to face it. The

815
00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:44.199
final straw came in mid September. Debbie was still in

816
00:42:44.239 --> 00:42:46.719
the hospital when Anthony stopped by for one of his

817
00:42:46.840 --> 00:42:51.119
daily visits. Not long after, Dennis Sinta, a family law

818
00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:54.599
attorney married to Debbie's cousin Maria, walked into the room.

819
00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:57.480
He had been helping her with the child neglect case,

820
00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:00.760
but that wasn't why he was there that day. Dennis

821
00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:04.960
glared at Anthony and snapped, get out and don't come back. Startled.

822
00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:08.840
Anthony left. Then Denis turned to Debby. He told her

823
00:43:08.920 --> 00:43:12.079
what he had discovered. While she lay in the ICU

824
00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:15.000
fighting for her life. Anthony had sent a card to

825
00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:17.880
his girl friend. If you knew how much I missed you,

826
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:21.400
he wrote, you would be with me. Anthony had sworn

827
00:43:21.559 --> 00:43:22.880
that affair was long over.

828
00:43:23.280 --> 00:43:23.840
It wasn't.

829
00:43:24.480 --> 00:43:28.000
Dennis didn't mince words. If Debby wanted her children back,

830
00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:30.880
she had to cut Anthony out of her life. She

831
00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:35.159
couldn't have both. It was Anthony or the kid's for Debby.

832
00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:39.320
The decision was devastating but clear. With tears in her eyes,

833
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:42.280
she told her family she didn't want Anthony visiting her

834
00:43:42.440 --> 00:43:46.320
any more. For the first time, Debby chose herself and

835
00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:50.400
her children over Anthony. In October, still confined to a

836
00:43:50.440 --> 00:43:54.159
hospital bed, Debby twitched her fingers, then lifted one leg.

837
00:43:54.599 --> 00:43:58.400
The nurses burst into tears. After weeks of uncertainty, it

838
00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:02.880
felt like a small miracle, but miracles don't pay hospital bills.

839
00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:06.119
By the end of the month, Debbie's insurance was running out.

840
00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:10.199
Her options were grim transferred to a nursing home style

841
00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:14.559
rehab facility, or go home and somehow assemble twenty four

842
00:44:14.599 --> 00:44:18.519
hour care that she couldn't afford. Her mother offered to help,

843
00:44:18.639 --> 00:44:21.719
but she couldn't be there around the clock. That's when

844
00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:25.760
Debbie's friend, Shelley stepped forward. Debbie protested it was too

845
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:30.000
much to ask, but Shelley insisted. For the next six months,

846
00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:33.440
Shelley arrived at Debbie's door every morning at six am.

847
00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:36.719
She dressed her brushed her teeth, did her hair, applied

848
00:44:36.760 --> 00:44:40.119
her makeup, the rituals that make a person feel like themselves.

849
00:44:40.679 --> 00:44:43.880
Then every four hours, Shelley returned to help with whatever

850
00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:44.639
Debbie needed.

851
00:44:45.440 --> 00:44:48.519
Shelley sounds like an amazing friend. I know, It's just

852
00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:50.119
that's so selfless.

853
00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:50.480
Yes.

854
00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:54.320
Meanwhile, the children were still living with Debbie's brother while

855
00:44:54.360 --> 00:44:57.480
the neglect case worked its way through the courts. Both

856
00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:02.000
parents had visitation. Debbie kept her distance from Anthony, seeing

857
00:45:02.079 --> 00:45:05.599
him only when their visits happened back to back. Anthony

858
00:45:05.639 --> 00:45:08.280
had moved in with his mother any chance he got.

859
00:45:08.280 --> 00:45:10.880
He begged Debbie to let him come home, but she

860
00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:15.119
stayed firm. After everything, the lies, the affairs, the poisoning,

861
00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:17.119
she was finally done for good.

862
00:45:17.639 --> 00:45:19.880
Did he know the position that he put her in

863
00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:20.840
with the children.

864
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:24.519
I think Anthony didn't think about those things. You know,

865
00:45:24.679 --> 00:45:26.559
it was all about himself. He didn't really care.

866
00:45:26.840 --> 00:45:28.719
But if she let him back in the home, she

867
00:45:28.920 --> 00:45:31.519
was endangering her custody of her children.

868
00:45:31.239 --> 00:45:33.480
Right, Yeah, I don't think he probably saw it that way.

869
00:45:34.039 --> 00:45:37.079
Investigators were still hunting for the source of the arsenic.

870
00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:40.519
Their only lead was something Debbie's daughter, Lauren had mentioned

871
00:45:40.840 --> 00:45:43.440
she'd seen her dad putting out little tins of ant

872
00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:47.360
poison around the house. They knew that taro and Killer,

873
00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:52.840
common household product, had contained arsenic decades earlier, and had

874
00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:56.679
even been used in several infamous spousal poisonings. But when

875
00:45:56.760 --> 00:46:00.559
they contacted the company, they learned Taro hadn't used arsenic

876
00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:04.599
for years. The Taro representative did, however, point them toward

877
00:46:04.679 --> 00:46:09.960
another manufacturer, Grand Slab, in California, they still produced an

878
00:46:09.960 --> 00:46:16.199
ant killer containing arsenic trioxide. When investigators called the company's COO,

879
00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:20.039
he confirmed it. Their ant killer contained between point three

880
00:46:20.199 --> 00:46:24.280
five and point four six percent arsenic trioxide and was

881
00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:28.159
sold in small round tins, similar to what Lauren had described.

882
00:46:28.519 --> 00:46:32.519
At that concentration, roughly eight tins would hold enough poison

883
00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:35.360
to deliver a fatal dose to a one hundred and

884
00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:36.360
fifty pounds adult.

885
00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:39.320
This really surprised me that at this time, in the

886
00:46:39.400 --> 00:46:42.519
late nineteen nineties, that you could still buy ant poison

887
00:46:42.639 --> 00:46:46.039
containing arsenic. I would I assumed it had been banned

888
00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:46.920
long before that.

889
00:46:47.199 --> 00:46:50.480
We to day those things all the time. Yeah, our

890
00:46:50.519 --> 00:46:52.320
old house with like parades of ants.

891
00:46:52.360 --> 00:46:53.280
Oh yeah, that just.

892
00:46:53.280 --> 00:46:55.360
Laughed at us every time whatever we put out.

893
00:46:55.639 --> 00:46:59.440
Right, Yeah, but from what I understand today, no ant

894
00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:01.960
poisoning or insecticide contains arsenic anymore.

895
00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:02.440
Good to know.

896
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:06.840
Checking locally, investigators discovered that a target store in the

897
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:11.679
Buffalo suburb cheek Towaga stocked the Grand Slab's product. Anthony

898
00:47:11.719 --> 00:47:14.599
could have walked in and purchased it without anyone noticing.

899
00:47:14.599 --> 00:47:17.079
If he paid cash, there would be no paper trail.

900
00:47:17.559 --> 00:47:21.360
Anthony's credit card records did show purchases at that target store,

901
00:47:21.639 --> 00:47:26.039
giving investigators a circumstantial link, but if he'd actually bought

902
00:47:26.039 --> 00:47:29.599
the ant killer there, he'd been smart enough to pay cash.

903
00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:33.039
By early two thousand, the DA worried that Anthony was

904
00:47:33.079 --> 00:47:36.199
preparing to run. They still didn't have enough to charge

905
00:47:36.280 --> 00:47:40.800
him with Debby's poisoning, but they did have leverage violations

906
00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:46.000
of his probation. Investigators had uncovered two major breaches. Anthony

907
00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:49.440
had crossed s date lines for that Philadelphia job interview,

908
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:54.679
and he'd been using drugs. Both were clear violations. On

909
00:47:54.760 --> 00:47:59.280
February first, two thousand, Anthony was arrested and taken into custody.

910
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:03.800
Lena posted his fifty thousand dollars bail, but this time

911
00:48:04.000 --> 00:48:07.719
he was ordered to wear an electronic ankle bracelet. Only

912
00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:12.119
days later, Anthony made another mistake. He called Debbie despite

913
00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:16.800
a no contact order. Debbie reported this violation. Anthony was

914
00:48:16.840 --> 00:48:19.880
hauled back to jail, and this time his bail was

915
00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:23.920
set so high that even Lena couldn't cover it. Anthony

916
00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:27.519
was stunned to him Debbie's decision to report the call

917
00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:31.719
wasn't just compliance with the law, it was betrayal. It

918
00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:34.800
may have been the moment he realized for the first

919
00:48:34.840 --> 00:48:37.079
time that he had truly lost her.

920
00:48:37.639 --> 00:48:38.519
In March two.

921
00:48:38.440 --> 00:48:42.639
Thousand, Anthony was sentenced to between sixteen and forty eight

922
00:48:42.679 --> 00:48:45.000
months in prison for a violating probation.

923
00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:46.679
Wow, that's pretty steep.

924
00:48:46.920 --> 00:48:50.719
I guess when you violate probation, your sentence is essentially

925
00:48:51.239 --> 00:48:53.360
going to prison for the term the rest of the

926
00:48:53.440 --> 00:48:56.000
term of your probation. And he was on a five

927
00:48:56.079 --> 00:48:57.079
year probation.

928
00:48:56.760 --> 00:49:00.639
Period, okay, and then his problems got even worse. A

929
00:49:00.679 --> 00:49:03.920
month later, an Eerie County grand jury heard the evidence

930
00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:08.159
in Debby's poisoning. In April twenty seventh, Anthony Pignataro was

931
00:49:08.199 --> 00:49:12.119
indicted for attempted murder in the second degree, assault in

932
00:49:12.199 --> 00:49:15.639
the first degree, and three accounts of criminal possession of

933
00:49:15.679 --> 00:49:20.440
a controlled substance in the seventh degree. While the criminal

934
00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:24.440
case moved forward, the family court hearings dragged on. Debbi

935
00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:28.440
was frustrated she had fought to survive arsenic poisoning and

936
00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:32.559
still she didn't have her children back. Caseworkers knew the truth.

937
00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:36.639
Debbie was blameless, she was a good mother. Quietly, they

938
00:49:36.679 --> 00:49:39.000
allowed Ralph and Lauren to spend more time at home,

939
00:49:39.199 --> 00:49:42.800
but officially the children remained in limbo. The main obstacle

940
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:45.719
was the xanax overdose from the year before, which some

941
00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:49.760
still labeled as a suicide attempt. That single incident hung

942
00:49:49.800 --> 00:49:52.679
over Debby's head like a cloud. A trial on the

943
00:49:52.760 --> 00:49:56.679
child neglect charges was scheduled for June thirteenth, two thousand.

944
00:49:57.039 --> 00:50:00.519
Both Debbie and Anthony would stand as defendants. In the

945
00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:04.239
middle of it all, Ralph turned thirteen and he decided

946
00:50:04.280 --> 00:50:07.199
to write his father a letter in prison. It wasn't

947
00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:08.079
the kind of letter a.

948
00:50:08.119 --> 00:50:10.119
Child should ever have to write.

949
00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:14.159
Ralph confronted his dad directly, Why are you telling people

950
00:50:14.280 --> 00:50:17.159
Mom put you in jail? Why are you feeding Grandma

951
00:50:17.239 --> 00:50:21.039
lies about her? What about the heroine and heroin with Tammy?

952
00:50:21.639 --> 00:50:24.000
Why did you have to be so stupid? Even I

953
00:50:24.119 --> 00:50:24.599
know better.

954
00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:25.800
You're a doctor.

955
00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:27.960
You should definitely know right from wrong.

956
00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:29.440
That was wrong.

957
00:50:30.280 --> 00:50:33.760
He begged his father to stop poisoning his relationship with Lena,

958
00:50:34.039 --> 00:50:38.760
to take responsibility to help his family. Please help out dad,

959
00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:41.360
he wrote, I know you want to in your heart.

960
00:50:41.920 --> 00:50:46.119
Anthony's reply, in essence, none of it was his fault.

961
00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:49.960
At the June hearing, the judge delivered his verdict, Anthony

962
00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:53.400
was guilty of child neglect. Debby was found innocent, and

963
00:50:53.480 --> 00:50:56.400
then the judge turned to Anthony and spoke words that

964
00:50:56.440 --> 00:50:59.920
cut like a knife. You are a miserable human being

965
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:03.400
being who failed everybody. You have done something that is

966
00:51:03.480 --> 00:51:07.639
so wrong. You have destroyed your life and inflicted incredible

967
00:51:07.639 --> 00:51:12.119
physical and psychological pain on your wife. At long last,

968
00:51:12.400 --> 00:51:14.400
Ralph and Lauren were officially allowed.

969
00:51:14.119 --> 00:51:16.039
To come home and live with Debbie.

970
00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:18.880
Do you sometimes wish that you could be a judge

971
00:51:19.159 --> 00:51:21.320
so you could deliver like he's just hurts.

972
00:51:21.719 --> 00:51:22.039
Yeah?

973
00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:23.880
I love it when I read something like that, for

974
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:27.440
someone who so richly deserves to hear those words.

975
00:51:27.639 --> 00:51:29.840
But Anthony probably did not hear the words.

976
00:51:29.960 --> 00:51:30.960
No, I'm sure he didn't.

977
00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:34.039
Even as the family court battle played out, the DA

978
00:51:34.159 --> 00:51:37.199
pressed forward with a poisoning case. A trial date was

979
00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:41.159
set for October two thousand. Once again, Anthony scoffed at

980
00:51:41.199 --> 00:51:44.440
the idea of a plea deal. The problem for prosecutors

981
00:51:44.599 --> 00:51:48.639
was that the case was almost entirely circumstantial. Anthony had

982
00:51:48.639 --> 00:51:51.400
the motive and the opportunity, but there was no direct

983
00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:55.880
evidence tying him to the Arsenic They had Arnie Ledovitch's testimony,

984
00:51:56.199 --> 00:52:00.199
but every defense attorney loves to dismantle the credibility of

985
00:52:00.239 --> 00:52:04.280
a jailhouse snitch. Then, almost like a floodgate opened, more

986
00:52:04.360 --> 00:52:08.599
informants began pouring in. The prosecutor later joke, We've never

987
00:52:08.679 --> 00:52:11.639
had so many informants. We had a conga line of

988
00:52:11.679 --> 00:52:15.960
them coming across Delaware Avenue to tell us about Anthony Pignataro.

989
00:52:16.599 --> 00:52:19.239
One was a former patient who claimed Anthony had once

990
00:52:19.360 --> 00:52:21.840
said he needed to find someone to kill his wife.

991
00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:25.119
Three more were inmates who said that during his current

992
00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:28.199
stint in prison, Anthony had been putting out feelers for

993
00:52:28.239 --> 00:52:32.360
a hit man to silence Arnie Ledovich. In Anthony's mind,

994
00:52:32.639 --> 00:52:35.960
Arnie was the only thing standing between him and an acquittal.

995
00:52:36.440 --> 00:52:39.800
In August, investigators arranged for one of the informants to

996
00:52:39.880 --> 00:52:43.199
connect Anthony with a supposed hit man who was in

997
00:52:43.239 --> 00:52:47.599
reality and undercover Eerie County Deputy Fluent and Spanish.

998
00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:51.039
Apparently, Anthony thought that if he spoke Spanish to this

999
00:52:51.199 --> 00:52:54.039
alleged hit man on his prison call, that the people

1000
00:52:54.079 --> 00:52:56.320
listening in to the prison calls wouldn't pick up on

1001
00:52:56.440 --> 00:52:57.840
what he was talking about.

1002
00:52:57.920 --> 00:53:01.480
Yeah, on a recorded call, Ane Anthony offered ten thousand

1003
00:53:01.480 --> 00:53:05.199
dollars to have Arny killed. He even provided details about

1004
00:53:05.239 --> 00:53:09.000
how and when he would deliver payment. That tape was

1005
00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:12.599
a game changer. The DA brought it straight to Anthony's lawyer,

1006
00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:16.480
warning that new charges for conspiracy to commit murder were

1007
00:53:16.519 --> 00:53:22.119
about to be added. Suddenly, Anthony's defiance evaporated. Backed into

1008
00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:25.079
a corner, Anthony agreed to a deal. He would plead

1009
00:53:25.119 --> 00:53:28.480
guilty to a lesser charge, withdraw all his motions, and

1010
00:53:28.599 --> 00:53:31.719
waive his right to appeal. He would admit to poisoning

1011
00:53:31.719 --> 00:53:36.239
Debbie and supposedly reveal where he got the arsenic. The

1012
00:53:36.320 --> 00:53:40.360
last part, though he never followed up on authorities never

1013
00:53:40.480 --> 00:53:45.000
learned exactly how he obtained the poison. In exchange, Anthony's

1014
00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:49.079
sentence was capped at between five and fifteen years. Sentencing

1015
00:53:49.360 --> 00:53:52.320
was scheduled for early two thousand and one for Debbie.

1016
00:53:52.440 --> 00:53:55.719
Anthony's admission was more than just legal leverage.

1017
00:53:55.960 --> 00:53:58.679
It was validation. After years of.

1018
00:53:58.679 --> 00:54:03.800
Betrayal, denial, and manipulation, he had finally admitted what he

1019
00:54:03.880 --> 00:54:07.000
had done. It lifted a weight off her shoulders and

1020
00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:10.239
gave her the freedom to move on. In October two thousand,

1021
00:54:10.719 --> 00:54:12.480
she filed for divorce.

1022
00:54:13.199 --> 00:54:17.400
As his sentencing date approached, Anthony turned once again to manipulation.

1023
00:54:18.000 --> 00:54:21.679
His best hope for leniency, he decided, was Debbie. He

1024
00:54:21.760 --> 00:54:24.719
wrote letters to her and the kids, begging for forgiveness,

1025
00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:27.599
asking her to write a supportive letter to the judge.

1026
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:31.039
He also wrote to his mother, Lena, instructing her to

1027
00:54:31.079 --> 00:54:34.920
pressure Debbie on his behalf. In that letter, Anthony's words

1028
00:54:34.960 --> 00:54:38.280
revealed his true mindset. Even if it's all phony and

1029
00:54:38.320 --> 00:54:40.480
you don't truly mean it, you could do it for me.

1030
00:54:41.039 --> 00:54:43.280
You will never have to see her again anyway. What

1031
00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:46.239
she tells Judge Rosetti will determine how much time he

1032
00:54:46.280 --> 00:54:49.320
gives me. Every day that you save me is worth it.

1033
00:54:49.559 --> 00:54:51.519
You wouldn't have to see her. You could just call

1034
00:54:51.559 --> 00:54:53.880
on the phone and be nice. I know it would

1035
00:54:53.960 --> 00:54:56.960
kill you, but it will help me. But even Lena,

1036
00:54:57.079 --> 00:54:59.800
his most loyal defender, couldn't bring herself to make that

1037
00:54:59.840 --> 00:55:03.920
go by this point, she despised Debbie too much, and

1038
00:55:04.039 --> 00:55:07.199
she wasn't willing to swallow her pride even for her son.

1039
00:55:07.480 --> 00:55:10.559
It really bothers me that Lena hates Debbie so much,

1040
00:55:10.599 --> 00:55:13.840
like Debbie is completely blameless at all this. I don't

1041
00:55:14.199 --> 00:55:16.599
I understand, like wanting to stand by your child, but

1042
00:55:17.239 --> 00:55:19.039
just seems a little out of touch.

1043
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:19.960
Yeah, definitely.

1044
00:55:20.440 --> 00:55:23.000
Debbie, however, did write a letter to the judge, but

1045
00:55:23.159 --> 00:55:27.320
it wasn't the glowing endorsement that Anthony had imagined. Instead,

1046
00:55:27.400 --> 00:55:31.559
she laid bare the truth Anthony's infidelities, his broken promises,

1047
00:55:31.880 --> 00:55:34.840
the years she had spent trapped in his shadow. She

1048
00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:39.360
described her long, painful recovery. She could now walk without braces,

1049
00:55:39.519 --> 00:55:42.880
bathe and feed herself, even drive, but her body was

1050
00:55:42.920 --> 00:55:46.920
still numb, her legs aching constantly, her hands unable to

1051
00:55:46.960 --> 00:55:50.719
perform fine motor tasks. She told the judge she wasn't

1052
00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:54.320
seeking revenge. She only wanted to protect her children, and

1053
00:55:54.400 --> 00:55:57.559
she would never feel safe with Anthony free on the streets.

1054
00:55:58.039 --> 00:56:01.880
At sentencing, Anthony pleaded for portraying himself as a man

1055
00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:05.639
who deserved a second chance, but Judge Rosette wasn't swayed.

1056
00:56:05.880 --> 00:56:09.440
Anthony had been given chance after chance and squandered them all.

1057
00:56:10.039 --> 00:56:13.280
The judge handed down the maximum fifteen years, the top

1058
00:56:13.320 --> 00:56:15.440
of the range, and when it came to whether the

1059
00:56:15.480 --> 00:56:19.239
sentence would run concurrently or consecutively with the four year

1060
00:56:19.320 --> 00:56:22.960
term he was already serving for probation violation, the judge

1061
00:56:22.960 --> 00:56:27.440
again showed no mercy. The sentences would be consecutive. Rosette

1062
00:56:27.440 --> 00:56:29.920
also signed an order of protection for Debbie and the

1063
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:34.840
children to last three years after Anthony's eventual release. One

1064
00:56:34.880 --> 00:56:39.760
week later, Debbie's divorce was finalized. After years of abuse, betrayal,

1065
00:56:39.880 --> 00:56:44.079
and survival against the odds, she was finally free with

1066
00:56:44.159 --> 00:56:47.760
time off for good behavior. Anthony Pignataro walked free in

1067
00:56:47.840 --> 00:56:52.239
twenty thirteen after serving thirteen years. He was fifty five

1068
00:56:52.360 --> 00:56:56.360
years old. Most people would assume that after poisoning your wife,

1069
00:56:56.440 --> 00:56:59.880
losing your medical license, and spending over a decade in prison,

1070
00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:03.119
you might try to keep a low profile. Not Anthony.

1071
00:57:03.599 --> 00:57:06.119
A couple of years after his release, a new business

1072
00:57:06.159 --> 00:57:10.599
popped up in West Seneca, Tony Hote Cosmetique and Skincare.

1073
00:57:11.119 --> 00:57:15.679
The business's website introduced Tony Hot as a renowned scientist

1074
00:57:15.719 --> 00:57:19.719
and physician locals squinted at the headshot on the site.

1075
00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:23.559
The slick looking Tony Hot bore a suspicious resemblance to

1076
00:57:23.679 --> 00:57:27.519
a disgraced plastic surgeon. They remembered from the evening news.

1077
00:57:28.039 --> 00:57:31.320
Reporters dug deeper, and sure enough, Tony Hote was none

1078
00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:36.920
other than Anthony Pignataro, now operating under a new fancier name. Apparently,

1079
00:57:36.920 --> 00:57:39.480
in Anthony's mind, you could just swap your last name

1080
00:57:39.519 --> 00:57:42.760
for something French sounding and pretend the whole murder and

1081
00:57:42.800 --> 00:57:47.519
poisoning thing had never happened. His website advertised the first

1082
00:57:47.559 --> 00:57:52.159
and only skincare system formulated from one's own DNA derived plasma.

1083
00:57:52.599 --> 00:57:54.679
He had even managed to get a patent for some

1084
00:57:54.719 --> 00:58:00.760
pseudo scientific process to treat skin imperfections. Neighbors were and impressed.

1085
00:58:01.079 --> 00:58:04.480
They told reporters that there were constant deliveries of surgical

1086
00:58:04.519 --> 00:58:07.800
supplies and a steady stream of women coming and going

1087
00:58:07.880 --> 00:58:11.079
late at night. One neighbor summed it up perfectly, Some

1088
00:58:11.159 --> 00:58:15.440
real weird stuff happens there. When journalists confronted Tony Hot

1089
00:58:15.559 --> 00:58:18.880
for comment, he clammed up. Soon after the state opened

1090
00:58:18.920 --> 00:58:23.280
an investigation, and just like that, Tony Hote vanished shutting

1091
00:58:23.320 --> 00:58:26.599
down his website, closing his business and packing up for

1092
00:58:26.679 --> 00:58:32.039
Florida Wow. Florida business records show that in August twenty seventeen,

1093
00:58:32.199 --> 00:58:36.079
Tony Hot resurfaced yet again. He registered not one, but

1094
00:58:36.159 --> 00:58:41.480
two new ventures, Tony Hote Cosmetique LLC and Hate Medical LLC.

1095
00:58:42.159 --> 00:58:45.440
On the paperwork, the registered agent was listed as Anthony

1096
00:58:45.480 --> 00:58:49.960
Hote MD. Apparently, though even Anthony realized that two more

1097
00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:53.000
fake companies might not be the best look, because within

1098
00:58:53.039 --> 00:58:56.760
a year both were quietly dissolved. But Anthony is nothing

1099
00:58:56.800 --> 00:58:59.840
if not persistent. In twenty nineteen, he popped up in

1100
00:59:00.079 --> 00:59:04.599
perhaps his most surreal disguise yet as a trustworthy senior

1101
00:59:04.679 --> 00:59:09.480
caregiver on the website eldercare dot com. Listed simply as

1102
00:59:09.559 --> 00:59:15.440
Anthony h. He claimed qualifications in administering medications, performing assessments,

1103
00:59:15.639 --> 00:59:20.199
and providing respite care. Someone who recognized his photo immediately

1104
00:59:20.199 --> 00:59:23.400
alerted the Buffalo DA, but there wasn't much they could

1105
00:59:23.440 --> 00:59:26.039
do as long as he wasn't claiming to be a doctor.

1106
00:59:26.360 --> 00:59:30.400
There was nothing technically illegal about Anthony offering his services

1107
00:59:30.440 --> 00:59:33.719
as a caregiver. Terrifying maybe illegal.

1108
00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:34.159
No.

1109
00:59:34.760 --> 00:59:38.079
By twenty twenty, Anthony had formed yet another Florida entity,

1110
00:59:38.280 --> 00:59:41.960
Hote Enterprises. That company is still active today, though what

1111
00:59:42.159 --> 00:59:46.159
exactly Anthony is doing with it, if anything, remains a mystery.

1112
00:59:46.760 --> 00:59:48.920
The last sighting that I found of him was from

1113
00:59:48.920 --> 00:59:52.599
his Facebook page in January twenty twenty four. There he

1114
00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:55.800
was Anthony Hote glaring into the camera with a full,

1115
00:59:56.119 --> 00:59:59.320
obviously fake looking head of hair, trying to smolder. At

1116
00:59:59.320 --> 01:00:02.000
sixty six years old, he looked less like a disgraced

1117
01:00:02.039 --> 01:00:04.960
surgeon and more like a B movie villain who just

1118
01:00:05.079 --> 01:00:05.960
won't stay dead.

1119
01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:09.760
Wow, was he smoldering or smising?

1120
01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:10.800
What is smising?

1121
01:00:10.840 --> 01:00:11.199
I don't know.

1122
01:00:11.239 --> 01:00:12.440
I'm not familiar with that word.

1123
01:00:12.719 --> 01:00:17.199
It's a Tara Banks America's Top next top Model Lefens.

1124
01:00:17.239 --> 01:00:20.599
I believe will post the picture of him from Facebook,

1125
01:00:20.599 --> 01:00:22.760
but it just it made me laugh because he looks

1126
01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:25.400
like he is just looking into the camera, like he

1127
01:00:25.519 --> 01:00:27.280
is trying to seduce the camera.

1128
01:00:27.719 --> 01:00:31.000
What was the Facebook post for just a.

1129
01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:31.760
Picture of himself?

1130
01:00:32.800 --> 01:00:36.360
In the years after Sarah's death, Dan Smith rebuilt his life.

1131
01:00:36.719 --> 01:00:40.360
He eventually remarried to his wife, Carrie, and together they

1132
01:00:40.480 --> 01:00:43.639
raised four children, two from his life with Sarah and

1133
01:00:43.719 --> 01:00:47.079
two more that they welcomed into the family. Sarah's mother,

1134
01:00:47.199 --> 01:00:50.760
Barb Grafton, became grandma to all of them. She spends

1135
01:00:50.840 --> 01:00:54.519
holidays with Dan's family, woven into their lives as family.

1136
01:00:55.159 --> 01:00:58.239
That part really touched me because you know Sarah's mom.

1137
01:00:58.719 --> 01:01:01.159
The fact that Dan still includes ut at her as family,

1138
01:01:01.280 --> 01:01:04.440
even with their new children. I just think that was really.

1139
01:01:04.239 --> 01:01:05.800
Heartwarming, very classy.

1140
01:01:06.599 --> 01:01:10.920
Still the past lingers. After learning about Debbie Pignataro's poisoning,

1141
01:01:11.039 --> 01:01:14.159
Dan carried a burden of guilt. He said, I thought

1142
01:01:14.159 --> 01:01:16.400
Debbie and their children would be better off if they

1143
01:01:16.440 --> 01:01:19.039
had their father come home to them. I was wrong,

1144
01:01:19.199 --> 01:01:22.159
and in a way, I blame myself that Debbie got poisoned.

1145
01:01:22.480 --> 01:01:25.280
I never thought he would hurt his own family. If

1146
01:01:25.320 --> 01:01:29.639
you remember Dan, he really didn't lobby for pign for

1147
01:01:29.679 --> 01:01:32.119
Anthony to have a long prison sentence. He just wanted

1148
01:01:32.239 --> 01:01:37.000
his license taking away. No, not at all. Debbie survived,

1149
01:01:37.079 --> 01:01:40.559
but the arsenic left scars that she'll carry forever. She

1150
01:01:40.719 --> 01:01:44.159
regained her mobility, but not fully. The numbness, the pain,

1151
01:01:44.280 --> 01:01:47.639
the loss of fine motor control. These are permanent reminders

1152
01:01:47.679 --> 01:01:50.840
of what she endured, and yet Debbie found the strength

1153
01:01:50.920 --> 01:01:53.639
to move forward. As of twenty twenty, she was still

1154
01:01:53.679 --> 01:01:57.559
living in Buffalo, a grandmother herself, finding joy and watching

1155
01:01:57.559 --> 01:02:00.960
her grandsons play football. After years years of silence, she

1156
01:02:01.039 --> 01:02:04.440
finally shared her story not for sympathy, but to give

1157
01:02:04.440 --> 01:02:08.159
other women the courage to leave abusive relationships before it's

1158
01:02:08.199 --> 01:02:12.519
too late. Two women, two very different stories, Sarah, whose

1159
01:02:12.559 --> 01:02:15.679
life was stolen at just twenty six, Debbie, who fought

1160
01:02:15.679 --> 01:02:19.519
to survive against impossible odds. Both are reminders of the

1161
01:02:19.559 --> 01:02:24.039
devastation left in Anthony Pignataro's wake, and both are reminders

1162
01:02:24.039 --> 01:02:26.440
of the strength that it takes to endure and to

1163
01:02:26.519 --> 01:02:30.519
choose life beyond abuse. Rest in peace, Sarah and Debbie.

1164
01:02:30.559 --> 01:02:31.320
We hope that.

1165
01:02:31.199 --> 01:02:34.480
You're still finding peace, joy and healing in the life

1166
01:02:34.519 --> 01:02:35.400
that you've rebuilt.

1167
01:02:35.960 --> 01:02:36.639
Heartbreaking.

1168
01:02:36.800 --> 01:02:39.840
It is simply heartbreaking that Debbie has to wake up

1169
01:02:39.880 --> 01:02:43.000
every morning and you know, be reminded instantly when she

1170
01:02:43.039 --> 01:02:46.199
tries to get out of bed of what her ex.

1171
01:02:46.079 --> 01:02:47.199
Husband put her through.

1172
01:02:47.400 --> 01:02:50.920
Yeah, and he is free, and you know who knows

1173
01:02:50.920 --> 01:02:53.719
what he's doing. He'll find a way to hurt someone

1174
01:02:53.719 --> 01:02:55.159
else again if he hasn't already.

1175
01:02:55.159 --> 01:02:55.559
I'm sure.

1176
01:02:55.840 --> 01:02:59.400
It just seems like he is just bent on you know, well.

1177
01:02:59.239 --> 01:03:03.840
He's this you know medical, you know expert, and he's.

1178
01:03:03.719 --> 01:03:06.239
Just a brilliant guy. So he's got to offer his

1179
01:03:06.280 --> 01:03:08.599
services to the world in some way or another. I

1180
01:03:08.639 --> 01:03:11.320
have a few questions for you. One thing, I wanted

1181
01:03:11.320 --> 01:03:13.960
to talk about motive a little bit, because I think

1182
01:03:14.440 --> 01:03:17.800
his motive in poisoning Debbie is a little bit confusing.

1183
01:03:18.360 --> 01:03:20.679
There was a little bit of life insurance, but there

1184
01:03:20.760 --> 01:03:22.960
wasn't a lot. It wasn't a huge amount of life

1185
01:03:23.000 --> 01:03:25.840
insurance that would you know, change his life or make

1186
01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:28.559
him set for life or anything like that, so that

1187
01:03:28.639 --> 01:03:32.079
probably wasn't a motive. The other possible motive is that

1188
01:03:32.400 --> 01:03:35.199
he wanted to get rid of Debbie so that he

1189
01:03:35.239 --> 01:03:37.599
could to make it easier for him to like move

1190
01:03:37.639 --> 01:03:41.320
to the Caribbean and start medicine. But even that doesn't

1191
01:03:41.320 --> 01:03:44.599
seem very likely. The interesting thing that the DA said

1192
01:03:45.039 --> 01:03:49.079
they were speculating that his motive might have been that

1193
01:03:49.199 --> 01:03:53.280
he wanted Debbie to die in surgery. You remember, he

1194
01:03:53.400 --> 01:03:57.039
was pushing the doctors to remove her gallbladder, and the

1195
01:03:57.079 --> 01:03:59.920
doctors were like, no way, she's too weak if she

1196
01:04:00.239 --> 01:04:03.440
if she undergoes that surgery, she'll probably die. And the

1197
01:04:03.559 --> 01:04:07.519
DA speculated that for Anthony that would be vindication if

1198
01:04:07.519 --> 01:04:11.239
his own wife died in surgery, to basically allow him

1199
01:04:11.280 --> 01:04:14.280
to say that, See, anybody's wife can die in surgery.

1200
01:04:14.679 --> 01:04:16.840
I'm curious what you think about that. It's kind of

1201
01:04:16.840 --> 01:04:19.559
a novel idea, but it's sort of intriguing.

1202
01:04:19.880 --> 01:04:22.280
Well, I think it's really interesting that you had the

1203
01:04:22.360 --> 01:04:26.199
option there to say cola systaectomy and you said gull

1204
01:04:26.320 --> 01:04:27.559
better removal surgery.

1205
01:04:27.880 --> 01:04:30.519
Yes, it's just how I am.

1206
01:04:30.639 --> 01:04:32.159
You know, it's my takeaway.

1207
01:04:33.119 --> 01:04:37.719
No, I think Anthony's a narcissist, and my takeaway is

1208
01:04:37.719 --> 01:04:39.760
that he just wanted to move on with his life

1209
01:04:39.800 --> 01:04:40.159
and that.

1210
01:04:40.119 --> 01:04:41.039
She was in the way.

1211
01:04:41.360 --> 01:04:44.880
He thought that she was expendable, and he just wanted

1212
01:04:44.880 --> 01:04:47.000
her dead. I don't think it went as deep as

1213
01:04:47.239 --> 01:04:50.159
you know, trying to prove that people die in surgery

1214
01:04:50.199 --> 01:04:50.679
every day.

1215
01:04:50.880 --> 01:04:53.920
Yeah, you're probably right. One thing I would love to

1216
01:04:53.920 --> 01:04:57.079
get your opinion on is your Debbie. She stood by

1217
01:04:57.119 --> 01:05:00.320
Anthony through a lot. There was a lot that on

1218
01:05:00.400 --> 01:05:04.880
infidelity abuse, you know, his criticism of her. Why do

1219
01:05:04.960 --> 01:05:08.079
you think she struggled so much to separate and let

1220
01:05:08.119 --> 01:05:09.840
go of him, and it took a long time and

1221
01:05:09.880 --> 01:05:12.480
a lot for her to finally get to a point

1222
01:05:12.480 --> 01:05:13.440
where she was ready.

1223
01:05:13.800 --> 01:05:16.079
She loved her husband and she wanted to think the

1224
01:05:16.119 --> 01:05:19.000
best of him, and it just took a really long

1225
01:05:19.039 --> 01:05:21.199
time for her to realize that he wasn't the man

1226
01:05:21.280 --> 01:05:23.719
that she thought he was. Right, they want to believe

1227
01:05:23.760 --> 01:05:26.880
the people that we marry are good and have the

1228
01:05:26.880 --> 01:05:29.000
best intentions, and it really does take it.

1229
01:05:29.079 --> 01:05:29.639
Clearly didn't.

1230
01:05:29.679 --> 01:05:31.320
And it's easy for us to see, you know, you

1231
01:05:31.360 --> 01:05:33.599
read a book and for you to see, well, clearly

1232
01:05:33.639 --> 01:05:36.159
this guy was garbage from the beginning. We talk about

1233
01:05:36.159 --> 01:05:39.000
the bad stuff all the time on our podcast, I

1234
01:05:39.000 --> 01:05:40.519
don't think we talk about the good stuff, and a

1235
01:05:40.559 --> 01:05:42.400
lot of times the good stuff isn't in the books.

1236
01:05:42.519 --> 01:05:45.159
I'm sure they had moments of you know, love and

1237
01:05:45.280 --> 01:05:48.760
laughter and warmth together, and they enjoyed, you know, to

1238
01:05:48.800 --> 01:05:51.280
a certain extent, watching their children grow up together and

1239
01:05:51.440 --> 01:05:54.119
attend their son's football games. You know, there are probably

1240
01:05:54.480 --> 01:05:56.760
lovely moments in their marriage, and she hung on to

1241
01:05:56.840 --> 01:05:58.320
those maybe more than she should have.

1242
01:05:58.519 --> 01:06:01.199
Yeah, it's a very good, good point. What do you

1243
01:06:01.239 --> 01:06:04.400
make of Anthony's sentence? So he served you know, six

1244
01:06:04.480 --> 01:06:08.719
months for Sarah's death, and then he got fifteen years

1245
01:06:08.719 --> 01:06:11.480
for poisoning Debbie which he didn't serve all of that.

1246
01:06:11.760 --> 01:06:14.360
But what do you think of that sentence? Is it

1247
01:06:14.400 --> 01:06:14.880
was justice?

1248
01:06:14.960 --> 01:06:17.920
Don Obviously there was not justice there. It's heartbreaking that,

1249
01:06:18.480 --> 01:06:23.199
you know, Debbie has lifelong injuries from that, and you know,

1250
01:06:23.239 --> 01:06:26.360
the poor Sarah lost her life. I mean, it's just

1251
01:06:26.440 --> 01:06:29.280
really sad that he still in a lot of these cases.

1252
01:06:29.360 --> 01:06:33.079
You know, he hurt people and killed two people that

1253
01:06:33.119 --> 01:06:35.800
we know of, and you know he's living his life.

1254
01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:38.480
Yeah, it's kind of ironic that he got more time

1255
01:06:38.679 --> 01:06:42.119
for Debbie who didn't end up dying, although she did

1256
01:06:42.199 --> 01:06:45.840
end up suffering for a long time, versus Sarah who

1257
01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:47.880
did end up dying. But I think the fact that

1258
01:06:47.880 --> 01:06:50.079
that was, you know, considered more of a medical thing,

1259
01:06:50.119 --> 01:06:52.000
it was trickier to prove.

1260
01:06:52.400 --> 01:06:54.719
I don't think he set out to kill Sarah exactly.

1261
01:06:55.159 --> 01:06:58.760
One last question with Sarah's death. I think that it

1262
01:06:58.880 --> 01:07:01.079
is really tricky, if you're thinking of it from a

1263
01:07:01.159 --> 01:07:04.559
DA's perspective, when something happens, when someone dies in a

1264
01:07:04.599 --> 01:07:07.880
medical situation like that, it's not something you normally go

1265
01:07:08.000 --> 01:07:11.039
after and arrest somebody for right. Those are handled with

1266
01:07:11.239 --> 01:07:13.880
extreme cases lawsuits. Yeah, So do you think the DA

1267
01:07:13.960 --> 01:07:17.119
handled his crimes appropriately, just.

1268
01:07:17.079 --> 01:07:23.519
This general sloppiness of his medical training and the basement

1269
01:07:23.639 --> 01:07:27.480
office and not having the life saving equipment that he

1270
01:07:27.480 --> 01:07:30.039
should have had. Yeah, I think that they could have

1271
01:07:30.079 --> 01:07:32.679
gone after him a little harder. But I know those

1272
01:07:32.679 --> 01:07:35.880
things are really hard to prove, and sometimes juries, you know,

1273
01:07:35.920 --> 01:07:38.360
those things are kind of nuanced and it's hard for

1274
01:07:38.440 --> 01:07:41.039
juries to really understand that stuff. You did, actually, I

1275
01:07:41.039 --> 01:07:43.840
thought a really good job explaining that stuff.

1276
01:07:43.960 --> 01:07:44.320
Mm hmm.

1277
01:07:44.519 --> 01:07:47.599
Yeah, it is tricky. I think for a DA who

1278
01:07:47.840 --> 01:07:52.039
aren't experts in medical procedures and practices, it was probably

1279
01:07:52.119 --> 01:07:55.039
difficult for them to feel confident in their case, which

1280
01:07:55.039 --> 01:07:58.599
is why they ended up offering a plea deal. But ultimately,

1281
01:07:58.599 --> 01:08:00.639
and we talked about it at the end of part one,

1282
01:08:00.800 --> 01:08:05.880
you wish that the medical community, the medical licensing board

1283
01:08:06.280 --> 01:08:08.880
would have found a way to not let him get

1284
01:08:08.880 --> 01:08:11.440
this far to begin with it. It's frustrating that there

1285
01:08:11.440 --> 01:08:14.960
weren't more checks and balances in place to stop him from.

1286
01:08:14.679 --> 01:08:17.520
It's chilling that he was performing these surgeries and he

1287
01:08:17.600 --> 01:08:20.600
thought he was some sort of you know, miracle doctor.

1288
01:08:20.840 --> 01:08:21.479
Yeah.

1289
01:08:21.600 --> 01:08:23.840
I need to mention my main source in this case

1290
01:08:24.079 --> 01:08:27.319
was Anne Rule's book Last Dance, Last chance. So this

1291
01:08:27.399 --> 01:08:31.199
is actually a book that was a compilation of multiple stories,

1292
01:08:31.479 --> 01:08:33.520
but this was the main one in the book. She

1293
01:08:33.560 --> 01:08:36.680
wrote about three hundred pages on this and she interviewed Debbie,

1294
01:08:37.039 --> 01:08:39.640
interviewed many people involved in the case, and as always,

1295
01:08:39.640 --> 01:08:41.439
Anne Rule did an amazing job.

1296
01:08:41.560 --> 01:08:43.560
Ye it she rules, she does.

1297
01:08:43.720 --> 01:08:44.039
She did.

1298
01:08:45.359 --> 01:08:48.800
This case reminded me so much of Doctor Death. I'm

1299
01:08:48.840 --> 01:08:51.760
sure a lot of our listeners have listened to Doctor Death.

1300
01:08:51.920 --> 01:08:56.760
I listened to season one and season two chilling, Yes, horrifying,

1301
01:08:57.000 --> 01:08:57.960
you listened.

1302
01:08:57.760 --> 01:09:00.880
To I listened to season one with season two different story.

1303
01:09:01.239 --> 01:09:05.239
Season two was a doctor Fata who is in the

1304
01:09:05.279 --> 01:09:06.079
Detroit area.

1305
01:09:06.239 --> 01:09:08.000
Oh okay, I don't think I listened to that one.

1306
01:09:08.159 --> 01:09:11.960
Yeah, that one is also just as chilling. Yeah, but yeah,

1307
01:09:12.039 --> 01:09:14.399
you would think that these people would get caught before

1308
01:09:14.439 --> 01:09:15.880
they do too much damage.

1309
01:09:15.880 --> 01:09:18.800
But mm hmm, it's really it's super scary, it really is.

1310
01:09:19.239 --> 01:09:22.279
Thanks again to Christy for recommending this case. We really

1311
01:09:22.319 --> 01:09:31.239
appreciate it. A few episodes ago, you told the story

1312
01:09:31.359 --> 01:09:35.319
of a woman that had gotten engaged to her AI chatbot.

1313
01:09:35.800 --> 01:09:39.960
Somebody commented on that episode, Hey, you should look at

1314
01:09:39.960 --> 01:09:42.199
the story of this woman who fell in love with

1315
01:09:42.279 --> 01:09:46.000
a chandelier, and so of course that piqued my curiosity

1316
01:09:46.359 --> 01:09:48.720
and I googled that and it took me down a

1317
01:09:49.039 --> 01:09:52.760
rabbit hole of people falling in love with inanimate objects,

1318
01:09:52.840 --> 01:09:55.640
and apparently it's something that happens. So I've got a

1319
01:09:55.680 --> 01:09:56.920
few examples here.

1320
01:09:56.920 --> 01:10:01.560
All right, Like they're in love with the inanimate object.

1321
01:10:01.319 --> 01:10:04.079
Yes, and they would marry it, yes, exactly.

1322
01:10:04.239 --> 01:10:06.600
So the example that our listener commented on about the

1323
01:10:06.640 --> 01:10:11.239
woman and the chandelier, this woman, her name is Amanda Liberty,

1324
01:10:11.600 --> 01:10:15.680
and she wanted to marry a ninety one year old chandelier.

1325
01:10:16.119 --> 01:10:19.159
This woman her name is Amanda Liberty because she previously

1326
01:10:19.199 --> 01:10:21.359
had been in love with the statue of Liberty, and

1327
01:10:21.399 --> 01:10:24.880
she changed her name to Amanda Liberty. But then she

1328
01:10:25.000 --> 01:10:28.399
moved on, and then she fell in love with a chandelier.

1329
01:10:27.880 --> 01:10:30.640
And she changed her name to Amanda Chandelier.

1330
01:10:31.119 --> 01:10:33.640
I don't know about that, but I would not be surprised.

1331
01:10:33.720 --> 01:10:35.760
I wish I had a chandelier. I love that much.

1332
01:10:35.800 --> 01:10:38.119
I hate I hear chandelier's in her house.

1333
01:10:39.800 --> 01:10:41.800
There were some other examples I found. This is a

1334
01:10:41.840 --> 01:10:45.920
real thing. A woman married the Berlin wall in nineteen

1335
01:10:45.960 --> 01:10:49.199
seventy nine, and she changed her last name to Berlin Wall.

1336
01:10:49.840 --> 01:10:54.119
She said, I find long, slim things with horizontal lines

1337
01:10:54.239 --> 01:10:57.279
very sexy. The Great Wall of China is attractive, but

1338
01:10:57.359 --> 01:11:01.199
he's too thick. My husband is sexy. But sadly the

1339
01:11:01.199 --> 01:11:03.439
Berlin Wall was demolished, so.

1340
01:11:03.880 --> 01:11:07.079
She lost her She's a widow.

1341
01:11:07.119 --> 01:11:07.760
She's a widow.

1342
01:11:07.840 --> 01:11:08.039
Yes.

1343
01:11:08.640 --> 01:11:11.960
Another woman married a large stone from her garden, which

1344
01:11:11.960 --> 01:11:14.520
I think that may have been more performance art, like

1345
01:11:14.560 --> 01:11:17.319
she was a performance artist. There was a man who

1346
01:11:17.319 --> 01:11:20.840
married a Barbie doll. In twenty fifteen, a Russian man

1347
01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:24.359
married a pizza because he said that love between humans

1348
01:11:24.439 --> 01:11:27.239
is too complicated. But he said that pizza would not

1349
01:11:27.399 --> 01:11:31.119
reject or betray you, and speaking quite frankly and sincerely,

1350
01:11:31.439 --> 01:11:32.000
I love it.

1351
01:11:32.520 --> 01:11:34.840
Well, that's kind of a fleeting romance, there, isn't it,

1352
01:11:34.840 --> 01:11:38.439
Because pizza doesn't last forever to be like Boloni or

1353
01:11:38.479 --> 01:11:42.520
something like that. I know because it has so many twinkies.

1354
01:11:42.640 --> 01:11:43.520
Yes, exactly.

1355
01:11:44.319 --> 01:11:46.319
And the last one I have is a man who

1356
01:11:46.439 --> 01:11:50.439
was featured on TLC's My Strange Addiction. I was going

1357
01:11:50.479 --> 01:11:52.680
to mention that show sounds yeah, it sounds like something

1358
01:11:52.720 --> 01:11:57.119
that would belong there. He married fifteen inflatable animals.

1359
01:11:57.039 --> 01:12:01.399
Well that one move a little more. Well, I guess

1360
01:12:01.560 --> 01:12:04.880
that I'm going to change my name to Tina water flosser.

1361
01:12:05.119 --> 01:12:07.159
Water. Oh, that's your inanimate object.

1362
01:12:07.199 --> 01:12:10.159
I really love my water flosser. And I went to

1363
01:12:10.199 --> 01:12:14.039
the dentist this week. Oh yeah, the results are pretty good.

1364
01:12:14.119 --> 01:12:17.000
Yeah, your dentist was quite happy with your relationship with

1365
01:12:17.000 --> 01:12:17.640
your waterfall.

1366
01:12:17.720 --> 01:12:20.800
My dentist is really really sweet, and she's always very

1367
01:12:20.880 --> 01:12:22.640
complimentary of my teeth.

1368
01:12:22.640 --> 01:12:24.399
Well, because you have perfect teeth.

1369
01:12:24.159 --> 01:12:25.720
So I mean I have, I have a pretty I

1370
01:12:25.720 --> 01:12:27.760
have pretty good teeth, but part of it is because

1371
01:12:27.760 --> 01:12:30.840
she's my dentist. But yeah, I don't know what would

1372
01:12:30.880 --> 01:12:33.520
you marry if you couldn't marry me.

1373
01:12:33.800 --> 01:12:36.600
If I had to marry an inanimate object, I think

1374
01:12:36.640 --> 01:12:40.520
I would marry my desk, your task. I spend a

1375
01:12:40.520 --> 01:12:42.039
lot of time in my spend.

1376
01:12:41.840 --> 01:12:42.319
A lot of time.

1377
01:12:42.319 --> 01:12:44.680
I'm surprised you didn't say chair or your car. You

1378
01:12:44.800 --> 01:12:45.640
like your car a lot too.

1379
01:12:45.760 --> 01:12:47.560
I do like my car. But I really love my desk.

1380
01:12:47.640 --> 01:12:50.600
It's just so like sleek and smooth, and it does

1381
01:12:50.960 --> 01:12:54.439
adjust to a standing desk, although you may not know

1382
01:12:54.520 --> 01:12:56.479
that because I don't. I haven't used it as a

1383
01:12:56.479 --> 01:12:58.199
standing desk. In a long time.

1384
01:12:58.600 --> 01:13:01.279
Well, I'm not here to put fun at you. I

1385
01:13:01.319 --> 01:13:05.800
love you unconditionally, but you do tend to have rose

1386
01:13:05.840 --> 01:13:09.000
colored glasses on sometimes when you you buy things. I

1387
01:13:09.119 --> 01:13:13.279
know you're very optimistic. I know because you when you

1388
01:13:13.279 --> 01:13:15.920
bought the standing desk because you wanted a stand mark.

1389
01:13:15.720 --> 01:13:17.800
And then I bought the little treadmill things to go

1390
01:13:17.920 --> 01:13:19.000
under the standing, and you have.

1391
01:13:18.960 --> 01:13:19.840
The balance board.

1392
01:13:19.960 --> 01:13:20.239
I know.

1393
01:13:21.199 --> 01:13:23.199
But you had a hard time with the desk treadmill.

1394
01:13:23.279 --> 01:13:25.680
You said it was it's hard to work while you

1395
01:13:25.800 --> 01:13:28.880
use it, unfortunately, because you're kind of like you're bouncing

1396
01:13:28.960 --> 01:13:31.119
up and down a little bit, and it's harder than

1397
01:13:31.159 --> 01:13:32.279
I thought, unfortunately.

1398
01:13:32.399 --> 01:13:35.319
Yeah, I'm trying to think of what else. I really love.

1399
01:13:35.439 --> 01:13:38.119
Nothing that I'm in like a long term relationship with

1400
01:13:38.159 --> 01:13:39.920
it in But I really love.

1401
01:13:39.840 --> 01:13:41.520
My A wall of water bottle.

1402
01:13:42.039 --> 01:13:43.840
I think the guy who married the pizza I can

1403
01:13:43.880 --> 01:13:46.399
relate to that. I know that pizza is fleeting, but

1404
01:13:46.439 --> 01:13:48.600
there's always going to be another pizza and then another

1405
01:13:48.640 --> 01:13:49.439
one after that.

1406
01:13:49.720 --> 01:13:53.079
But then you're cheating on your original pizza, so there's

1407
01:13:53.079 --> 01:13:54.279
some infidelity there.

1408
01:13:54.359 --> 01:13:56.520
Yeah, in the end of the day, I'm thankful that

1409
01:13:56.600 --> 01:13:59.680
I don't have to marry An inanimated object. I'm very

1410
01:13:59.720 --> 01:14:00.680
happy with you.

1411
01:14:01.800 --> 01:14:06.000
Thanks, thanks so much, ditto right back at you. I hear.

1412
01:14:06.039 --> 01:14:08.319
It's really tough out there in the dating world. So

1413
01:14:08.399 --> 01:14:10.880
my heart goes out to people who are looking for

1414
01:14:10.920 --> 01:14:14.279
someone special and aren't able to, you know, find their person,

1415
01:14:14.600 --> 01:14:16.119
because it's just getting.

1416
01:14:15.840 --> 01:14:16.760
Harder and harder.

1417
01:14:16.960 --> 01:14:18.800
Yeah, chandelier might not look so bad.

1418
01:14:19.319 --> 01:14:19.479
Well.

1419
01:14:19.520 --> 01:14:21.319
I read a story today, I think it was in

1420
01:14:21.359 --> 01:14:25.279
People magazine about a woman named Lisa who's forty two

1421
01:14:25.359 --> 01:14:31.279
years old, and she put a billboard up Marylisa dot com. Wow,

1422
01:14:31.359 --> 01:14:35.119
and she is looking for actually I think she's forty one,

1423
01:14:35.279 --> 01:14:37.319
and you can go to mary Lisa dot com and

1424
01:14:37.359 --> 01:14:39.520
you can apply to get to.

1425
01:14:39.520 --> 01:14:42.960
Know Lisa she has. It's so I think it's kind

1426
01:14:42.960 --> 01:14:45.119
of brilliant. Really, she's a really pretty lady.

1427
01:14:45.199 --> 01:14:47.960
She seems very accomplished, super smart.

1428
01:14:48.359 --> 01:14:49.960
I just feel like she's going to get a thousand

1429
01:14:50.039 --> 01:14:51.359
people she's going to I think.

1430
01:14:51.199 --> 01:14:54.239
She's already gotten a thousand people. Yeah, but yeah, it's

1431
01:14:54.239 --> 01:14:56.359
going to be you know, some work weeding through them.

1432
01:14:56.439 --> 01:14:58.119
I yes, she could be pretty cheesy though at that

1433
01:14:58.199 --> 01:15:01.239
point if she's got that many people responding.

1434
01:15:01.039 --> 01:15:03.760
Yeah, So I hope that Lisa finds love.

1435
01:15:03.880 --> 01:15:04.199
I hope.

1436
01:15:04.199 --> 01:15:06.640
So we hope everyone out there who is looking for

1437
01:15:06.880 --> 01:15:11.600
love finds love. Maybe we should have like a dating website.

1438
01:15:12.479 --> 01:15:15.439
There's this woman that I have followed on and off

1439
01:15:15.439 --> 01:15:18.800
for years on Instagram. Her name is Kelly Kelly Stamps.

1440
01:15:18.960 --> 01:15:20.199
She lives in Arkansas.

1441
01:15:20.439 --> 01:15:24.199
She's very religious, and she believes, like people should, you know,

1442
01:15:24.359 --> 01:15:27.520
people who love Jesus will be more likely to find

1443
01:15:27.640 --> 01:15:32.359
love together. And like I'm not kidding. She forty couples.

1444
01:15:32.680 --> 01:15:35.880
She has set up forty couples and they have married. Wow,

1445
01:15:35.960 --> 01:15:37.520
So I think that's super amazing.

1446
01:15:37.680 --> 01:15:39.479
So you think we should start a Love Mary Killed

1447
01:15:39.560 --> 01:15:41.680
dating site for people who love.

1448
01:15:42.079 --> 01:15:46.520
Crime, having the title love Mary Killed. David inside that probably.

1449
01:15:46.960 --> 01:15:48.880
Probably we're gonna have to work on that.

1450
01:15:48.920 --> 01:15:51.680
We're gonna have to work on that. What could the

1451
01:15:51.720 --> 01:15:54.000
case stand for love Mary?

1452
01:15:54.520 --> 01:15:55.880
Uh? Kiss?

1453
01:15:55.880 --> 01:15:58.840
There you go, Love Mary Kiss. Yeah, let's let's do it.

1454
01:15:58.920 --> 01:16:00.600
Maybe we could do that for val on Time's Day,

1455
01:16:00.760 --> 01:16:04.039
set up some true crime lovers and Kelly has the

1456
01:16:04.079 --> 01:16:07.800
same problem, like she'll have forty thousand women and six guys.

1457
01:16:08.359 --> 01:16:10.680
So the six guys, you know, their odds are really good.

1458
01:16:10.760 --> 01:16:12.960
And I think we have at least four male listeners.

1459
01:16:13.000 --> 01:16:15.039
Now, yeah, so those for many.

1460
01:16:15.079 --> 01:16:15.800
Not that it has to.

1461
01:16:15.800 --> 01:16:17.880
Be heterosexual relationship.

1462
01:16:17.920 --> 01:16:18.319
That's true.

1463
01:16:18.359 --> 01:16:20.760
You know, we can open it up. Who just love.

1464
01:16:21.000 --> 01:16:24.760
We believe in love. Here love Mary kel love is love.

1465
01:16:25.039 --> 01:16:27.199
We thank you all so much for sticking with us.

1466
01:16:27.279 --> 01:16:29.199
I know we've had a few long cases lately, but

1467
01:16:29.239 --> 01:16:32.239
I think people, I hope people like the detail that

1468
01:16:32.279 --> 01:16:34.279
we go into. That's usually the feedback we hear.

1469
01:16:34.720 --> 01:16:36.920
I think our listeners know that we like to get

1470
01:16:36.960 --> 01:16:39.560
as much detail in there as we can if we

1471
01:16:39.600 --> 01:16:41.600
can find it. Sometimes you can't find it. I'm working

1472
01:16:41.600 --> 01:16:44.439
on a case right now that I'm struggling to make

1473
01:16:44.560 --> 01:16:47.319
long enough. Yeah, it's always really frustrating. It's not that

1474
01:16:47.399 --> 01:16:50.279
those stories aren't worth telling, that they're not good, they're

1475
01:16:50.319 --> 01:16:50.720
just short.

1476
01:16:51.319 --> 01:16:51.520
Yeah.

1477
01:16:51.520 --> 01:16:53.239
This one, I thought I wasn't going to be able

1478
01:16:53.279 --> 01:16:55.159
to find enough because there was a couple of shows

1479
01:16:55.159 --> 01:16:58.079
and they were good, but I wasn't able to find anything.

1480
01:16:58.119 --> 01:17:00.680
And then I found that Anne Rule wrote this, Oh

1481
01:17:00.880 --> 01:17:02.119
this is perfet awesome.

1482
01:17:02.359 --> 01:17:05.720
Sometimes those shows are wrong too, like the Oxygen shows.

1483
01:17:05.880 --> 01:17:09.960
They'll leave out details, they have facts in there that

1484
01:17:10.000 --> 01:17:10.800
they're making up.

1485
01:17:10.920 --> 01:17:11.800
Yeah, it's kind of weird.

1486
01:17:11.960 --> 01:17:16.159
That's true. Please rate, review, follow and subscribe. Find us

1487
01:17:16.199 --> 01:17:19.079
on social media and YouTube, or send us an email

1488
01:17:19.159 --> 01:17:21.880
at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com.

1489
01:17:21.920 --> 01:17:24.479
If you're listening on Spotify, we love to see your

1490
01:17:24.520 --> 01:17:28.880
comments there. Ninety nine percent of our interaction with our

1491
01:17:28.920 --> 01:17:33.159
listeners is fabulous. Recently have gotten some not so nice

1492
01:17:33.199 --> 01:17:37.359
comments or people wanting to engage in war, and I'm

1493
01:17:37.399 --> 01:17:39.359
just never going to engage in war. If you have

1494
01:17:39.560 --> 01:17:42.560
unkind things to say, or you feel differently than we

1495
01:17:42.600 --> 01:17:45.439
do at the resolution of a case, that's completely fine,

1496
01:17:45.680 --> 01:17:48.000
but we're always going to choose peace.

1497
01:17:47.760 --> 01:17:49.399
And love until next time.

1498
01:17:49.760 --> 01:17:51.359
Don't kill your husband and don't.

1499
01:17:51.239 --> 01:18:10.800
Kill your wife.

1500
01:18:13.319 --> 01:18:13.960
To the

1501
01:18:24.720 --> 01:18:27.439
Topick the cont