Debbie and Anthony Pignataro - Part 2

0:00 Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina. If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of. Marriage, it's that some days you'll feel like killing your husband. And some days you'll feel like killing your wife. Welcome to love, Mary Kill. Hey Tina, Hey Rich. How are you today? I'm okay. How are you? I am doing pretty good. Good. I'm glad you came back. Yeah, I honestly was a little upset after the last episode. That was distressing.

0:40 Case. Yeah, it was disturbing for sure. Yeah, And I was actually reading some I read an article this morning about emergency rooms and like they're overwhelmed. We've been watching The Pit lately, which I know we're a little late to the game on that, but it's a great show, and I've been thinking, oh, it's a little bit, you know, it's dramatized, dramatized, it's really not that bad. But I was reading an article today that made me feel like, oh my gosh, emergency rooms are really just overwhelmed. Yeah. Well, we live in a rural area, so the emergency rooms when we've had occasion to go, have never been that busy. But if you're in a major metropolitan area like Pittsburgh. Yeah, it's going to be a lot busier. Yeah. I remember when I went for my gallbladder. It felt like I had to wait forever. I know it wasn't really forever, but oh you did.

1:24 Have to wait longer than you should have. But it was things. It was a Thanksgiving weekend, so I think that's why they were short stuffed, even though there weren't a ton of people in there, but the probably only one doctor. For most people. This episode will air on October twenty seventh, so right around Halloween. Oh it is October fifth when we're recording this. We're so far ahead of the game. Well, we won't be for a lot. Are you feeling Halloween ish yet? Well, as we've mentioned before, we're empty nesters, so it feels kind of weird. We put up some I put up some fall decorations, but you know, it's just me and you here most of the time, so I didn't go all out. I put our big black inflatable cat in the front yard although. From Hammocker Slummer, which we love. We bought it last year. Yeah, I love it's I mean, it's a great piece. It was expensive, but it's really cool and the neighbor kids love it and it gives us a lot of great joy.

2:15 I'll put a picture up of it. But the cat's having some issues though. The tail isn't standing up. I can't figure out why, but I need to go troubleshoot. Well, Hammocker Slummer is going out of business, which is a huge bummer. So all of their things have a lifetime warranty. Yeah, so that will maybe not so much anymore. Just when we bought it, and we paid kind of a lot for it, we were like, well, you know, there's ever an issue, we can return it. Yeah, now we're stuck with it. It's huge though, it's like thirteen feet tall or something. Yeah, it's really cool. And the eyes light up and it's yeah, it's really cool. We love it. I know we need to get rolling on this episode, but you love a scary movie. If you had to give one recommendation right now, what would your recommendation be.

2:56 You know that answer is going to change depending on what day you asked me. But the first thing to pop into my mind, I'm going to go old school and say Psycho by Alfred Hitchcock. I'll never forget the first time I saw that movie. I was probably in my early twenties. It was on TV at like midnight and I was just I was at my mom's house that I was staying up late and I watched it and I know it's like dated now, but it freaked me out. I have never watched it for that reason, because you take a shower every day, and I just feel like it would scare me. I am a high anxiety person anyway. I'm the jumpiest person you'll ever meet, right, Like, it doesn't take much. I walk into a room and. I jump, and I'm like, oh, you scared me. I save it one hundred times a day. So yes, I'm very jumpy. So I have not watched that movie on purpose because I think it would disturb me.

3:42 Well, if you had to recommend one, what would you pick today? Off the top of my head, I don't really know, but I like a good suspense movie. The other day, I finished a. Two part case and I was like, I'm gonna just watch a movie, and I watched The Drop and that was on Peacock. I think, and it was really good. So it was not really a horror movie, but. It was scary. So if you have Peacock, I recommend watching the Drop. I thought you were gonna throw out a Halloween because I know you're a fan of the classic kind of yeah slasher films. Yeah, that movie is well whenever we've we've watched. We used to watch it every year on Halloween. But it's really long, and it takes like forty five minutes to get. To any drama. Really, it's a little slow to get.

4:22 The music is great in that film. And yeah, well, let us know if you have recommendations for a really good horror film. It's been weird because it's so warm here. The leaves are just starting to turn now, but it hasn't felt like Halloween. No, it really hasn't. Normally we'd be watching a scary movie every weekend, but we really haven't done that yet. Yeah. Soon, I made you a snack. Yeah, with unflavored gelatine. Yeah, it tastes like nothing. Guessing what it was? Yeah, so what were you guessing? Well, you would ask me last night do we have any unflavored gelatine? And I think we used to, but we don't anymore. I'm not sure where it went, but I know that you need gelatin for like a chocolate cream pie and you love a chocolate cream pie, so I thought it might be something to do with that.

5:05 Gotcha, it's not what it is. So, you know I like to do snacks. If I can that tie into the location of the case. Yeah, our case takes place in Buffalo. Previously, when I did a Buffalo case, I made you Buffalo wings, right, I didn't want Those were really good, But I want to. Another guest with unflavored gelatin. I did a little googling and I found a candy that Buffalo is known for called I had never heard of, called sponge candy. Okay, have you ever heard of that? I don't think so. It's gonna look familiar to you because it's a lot like a candy that I know you are a big fan of. Is it honeycomb? Yes, I've always wanted to make that homemade, and I never have. That is one of my favorites for sure. Yeah. Well here it is. It looks perfect, but I think the inside is a little chewy or it's not as well when.

5:49 You get the occasional chewy honey. Okay, Well you're gonna like this. It might stick to your teeth though. Okay, what did you think about my sponge candy. I think you're amazing. It's crazy to me that you just whipped that up this morning. In our kitchen. I like a good challenge, you really do. I think it's because you only cook for the podcast, so when you get the opportunity, you're like E cided to But it looks like professional candy. And we have a story near us called World Market, and that's where you can get violet Violet Crumble Crumb viilet Crumble, and that's one of my favorites. You usually put one in my Christmas stocking and it looks just like Violet Crumble.

6:30 It doesn't taste quite as good, but it's really good. The honeycomb part came out definitely a little too dense and chewy, not as airy, and I like. The chewiness in it, but it could have just a smidgemore flavor. Did you think it was maybe just a little bland compared to Violet Crumble. But for your first a little bit, for your first time, that incredible and you did such a good I can't believe you dipped. I mean in this mold, there's like thirty pieces, so you dipped like thirty pieces of honeycomb so. I tempered the chocolate and I dipped. It, and I think i'd probably the chocolate is a little dark for me. That like a seventy percent sixty five. Okay, But bravo to you. It's beautiful. There's nothing you can't do. I really enjoyed it quite a bit.

7:12 Good. Thank you. If you hear any loud chewing during the podcast, that will be me eating this sponge candy. Would you like to give us a quick recap of part one? Absolutely? In part one, we introduced doctor Anthony Pignataro, a Buffalo surgeon, and his wife, Debbie. Anthony came from a well off family. His father was a prominent and well respected surgeon, while Debbie grew up in a more blue collar home. The couple had two children, Ralph and Lauren. Early in their marriage, Anthony began showing classic signs of narcissism. He saw himself as a brilliant innovator in the field of plastic surgery. In fact, he even invented a permanent hair piece that attached to the scalp using tiny bolts embedded in the skull.

7:57 They gave me nightmares. But behind the bar, Anthony was a dangerously incompetent surgeon. He refused to admit mistakes and insisted on doing things his way, even setting up an operating room in the basement of his clinic where he performed cosmetic procedures without proper equipment or trained staff. It was only a matter of time before tragedy struck. That tragedy came in August nineteen ninety seven, when twenty six year old Sarah Smith went in for what should have been a routine breast augmentation. A week later, after she'd been kept alive on life support, her husband Dan made the heartbreaking decision to let her go on September first. Anything that I left out of there that you think is worth noting.

8:41 We didn't really talk about it at the time that we were recording. But another patient of his die too, But that was during a different because he was an ear nosed throat doctor before he focused on the cosmetic surgery. Yeah, and that one wasn't quite as blatant. It was a seventy two year old man. I wasn't able to find out too much detail about that particular surgery, But that one might not have been, you know, as as blatantly obvious that Anthony screwed up. I guess okay, but Anthony was not a good husband and he had had at least two affairs that we know of. Yes correct. In the days after the botched surgery, while Sarah Smith lay in a coma, Debbie was beside herself. Despite all the cruelty she had endured from Anthony, the infidelity, the insults about her weight, the constant belittling, she still believed he was a gifted surgeon. Debbie tortured herself with guilt, replaying that awful day in her mind. Had she waited too long to speak up when Sarah stopped breathing, could she have somehow prevented the disaster. Anthony, on the other hand, didn't seem to lose much sleep over it. Almost immediately he went back to work as if nothing had happened.

9:47 He continued performing surgeries, including the same trans umbilical breast augmentation surgery on another patient the day after Sarah's surgery. He believed that he has a patient because of his incompetence, and then the next day he goes back in does the exact same surgery on another patient. Yeah, that's horrifying. In fact, Anthony performed even more surgeries than usual, trying to squeeze in as many paying patients as possible in case the Department of Health pulled the plug on his practice. In the evenings, he hit the gym as usual, had maybe a few extra drinks, and carried on with life. Overall, for Dan Smith, there was no carrying on. His twenty six year old wife was gone. At her wake in West Seneca, the grief was overwhelming, The story had been splashed across the news, and the crowd of mourners overflowed the funeral home. Sarah was buried beside her brother, across from the church where she and Dan had exchanged vows a few years earlier.

10:46 That's right, her brother died young from muscular dystrophy, right, and they were really close. Yes, friends urged Dan to sue, but vengeance wasn't what he wanted. He didn't even care if Anthony went to prison. His only wish was to make sure this never harmed another family again. Eventually, though, Anthony's malpractice insurer did offer a settlement, and Dan set the money aside in a fund for the children that Sarah would never get to raise. Meanwhile, the West Seneca Police and the District Attorney launched their investigation. Normally, botched surgeries end up in civil court, not criminal, but after hearing Dan's account, the DA was convinced this case was different. Anthony Pignataro hadn't just made a mistake, his recklessness was criminal. Investigators Pat Finnerty and Chuck Craven were assigned to get to the truth. What they uncovered was staggering.

11:37 When they interviewed Anthony, he claimed his lawyers had told him not to talk, but then he immediately launched into a self serving version of events, glossing over every possible mistake. Debbie and seventeen year old Tom Watkins, a high school kid who worked part time in the office, gave consistent accounts of the chaos that unfolded that day. In fact, Tom, the teenager, provided the clearest, most detailed, dec description of what had happened in that operating room. Then there was Jane, the twenty four year old LPN. She was the only other person in the room with any medical training, but her interview left investigators stunned. She admitted she didn't know what half the drugs were that she had been injecting. She just did whatever Anthony told her to do. When asked what it meant if a patient's oxygen levels dropped below eighty five, she shrugged, I don't know, but I know it's not good. She called a scalpel that sharp thing she couldn't remember the name, and she referred to the ambu bag, a basic life saving tool, as the bamboo bag or the little MASKI thing you put on someone's face when you want them to breathe. This was the team that Anthony Pignataro had assembled to administer general anesthesia in a dingy basement. The autopsy confirmed what Dan and Sarah's family already knew in their hearts. Sarah hadn't died of some mysterious condition or hidden defect. She had been given a cocktail of powerful drugs lydocane, codeine, diazepam, madazolam thiopental at doses so high they shut down her ability to breathe, and, with no ventilator in the room

13:08 no competent staff to help her, she suffocated the official cause of death asphyxia due to inadequate ventilation under anesthesia. Armed with a warrant, investigators combed through Anthony's basement operating room the setup was shocking, outdated, unsafe equipment for general anesthesia, and diplomas hanging on the wall that turned out to be forgeries. On August twenty ninth, even before Sarah was taken off life support, the Department of Health suspended Anthony's medical license. But Anthony didn't see himself as the problem. In his bizarre journal we talked about in Part one, a manuscript he called MD Mass Destruction, he painted himself as the victim. He blamed Sarah, claiming she had done cocaine the night before surgery, which was not true. He blamed the hospital for removing her from life support. He even claimed her heart and liver were defected, despite the autopsy proving otherwise. To Anthony, everyone else was at fault, the patient, the hospital, the DA, the media, anyone but him.

14:09 In January nineteen ninety eight, the district Attorney decided to put Anthony Pignataro's case before a grand jury. Witnesses were subpoenat, documents were pulled, and the evidence wasn't limited to Sarah Smith's death. The jury also heard about Anthony's treatment of Terry Lamardi. Terry we talked about in Part one A few weeks before Sarah Smith came in. He botched a tummy tuck on her and she went to the yar. She was lucky to survive. Okay, that's right. The grand jury returned six indictments manslaughter in the second degree for recklessly causing Sarah's death bi asphyxia, criminally negligent homicide, assault in the second degree for causing serious injury through reckless use of drugs, falsifying business records in the first degree for lying in his surgical report, Reckless endangerment in the second degree for trying to discharge Terry Lamarty from the hospital too soon, criminal possession of a forged instrument in the third degree for hanging a fake American Board of Odolaryngology diploma on his wall. The manslaughter charge carried the heaviest penalty, up to fifteen years in prison. Anthony was stunned, outraged. How could anyone accuse him of being a criminal. The attorneys urged him to consider a plea bargain.

15:27 Doctors almost never faced criminal charges from ile practice, and it was impossible to predict how a jury might view this case. The DA wasn't out for blood. Their priority was simply to make sure Anthony Pignataro would never endanger another patient again. But Anthony saw himself as the victim. He refused to admit guilt. He was determined to fight through it all. Debbie stayed by his side. Her belief in his surgical skills had finally started to waver, but for appearances and maybe out of sheer habit, she stood with her husband. What she didn't know was that while she defended him publicly, Anthony was seeing another woman named Tammy, who he'd met at Gold's gym earlier in nineteen ninety seven.

16:11 As the trial date loomed, Anthony's bravado gave a way to practicality. He struck a deal. He pled guilty to criminally negligent homicide. As part of the plea, he agreed to permanently surrender his medical license and to give up any right to appeal his sentence. That is very surprising. It is a little surprising that he would give that up. He must have seen the writing on the wall, that he knew it was going to happen one way or another. On August fourth, nineteen ninety eight, Anthony appeared in court for sentencing Shrew to form he couldn't resist turning the spotlight back on himself. He said, the. Loss of one's patient will forever haunt any moral doctor. Whatever determination you made a creed cannot be worse than this pain. This pain alone, I assure you, would be sufficient to tear any physician from making the same mistake in the future. But my pain is even greater than that.

17:03 If you could see the look of disappointment in the eyes of my son, the look of fear in my daughter's eyes, if you could see the pain in my wife and my mother's heart, the disgrace and failing your father's memory and reputation, you would know the pain I feel every moment. Oh boy, just the other day, the Shawn Combs was sentenced. I mean, it's just these people, these narcissists, the statements that they release upon you know, their sentencing is just such Bs. Yes, for sure, it may have. Sounded heartfelt at first, but listen closely. Every word was about his pain, his humiliation, his loss of face. Not Sarah, not Dan, not the young life cut short with Anthony.

17:49 It was always about Anthony. In the end, the judge followed the DA's recommendation six months in prison, five years probation and a twenty five hundred dollars fine. It was a slap on the wrist. Many of his former patients were angry, disappointed that he wouldn't surve real time for what he'd done. Still, there was some relief. At least finally, doctor Anthony Pignataro would never practice medicine again. What do you think about that sentence? I mean, it's very light. It makes me mad. Yeah, I'm just curious if there were other patients that must have had some lingering problems from the surgeries that he performed.

18:31 Yeah, there definitely were. I didn't find a lot of information about the other patients other than Terry Lamarty, who we talked about, but there were definitely others. If Anthony kept his nose clean, he would only serve about four months behind bars, So he tried to keep his head down. But there was one problem. For years, Anthony had been feeding an addiction by stealing painkillers from patients from Debbie from anywhere he could. Now locked away, he had no supply. That's when another inmate, Arnie Ledovich, took him under his wing. I should mention Arnie Ludovich is a pseudonym that Anne Rule used in her book. Arnie told Anthony that he could smuggle heroin into the prison.

19:11 For Anthony, heroin was an easy substitute for the painkillers he craved. Life inside wasn't easy for the once flamboyant doctor. He wasn't allowed to wear this too. Fay his bald head with metal screws sticking out true stairs, I. Love this be for laughing, but really funny. Was a little obsessed with these screws and the whole two pay business. Yea. Other prisoners called him Frankenstein and figured he was a lunatic. Despite the humiliation, Anthony had steady support Debbie, the kids, and his mother visited faithfully twice a week. He called them collect whenever he could, and exchanged letters with his children.

19:53 Debbie clung to hope. Maybe this would finally change him, Maybe prison would break through his arrogance. Anthony spent much of his time working out, and when he was released after just four months, he bragged that he was in the best physical shape of his life. But he's like completely addicted to heroin at this point. Right yes. Back home, he played the role of family man. His first day back, he watched hours of Ralph's junior high football games on video, the season Anthony had missed while locked up. Ralph, the undefeated quarterback, was overjoyed that his dad finally seemed interested. Anthony also paid attention to Lauren's gymnastics, encouraging her routines. For Debbie, it was like the husband she always wanted had finally come home. He wasn't drinking, he was attentive. He even threw himself into his community service at a therapeutic writing center for underprivileged and disabled kids.

20:45 The work seemed to soften him, to give him purpose. The couple capped off this new beginning by renewing their wedding vows at the very church where they'd first been married. For Debbie, was a symbol of their fresh start, a promise that maybe, just maybe the worst was finally behind them. So what were they doing for money? We'll talk a little more about that. But Debbie was working, Anthony was going to try to find a job out of prison. But they always had his mother to fall back on. His parents had a lot of money. Oh okay, his dad was gone, so. Lena, his mom was always willing to help out as well. Okay, and again I don't think if we mentioned this in part two, but his father was a well known physician who had passed away not that long before. Right, We'll be back after a break.

21:36 But the fresh start didn't last long. Anthony's mistress, Tammy had never really gone away. She had written to him while he was in prison, and he had written back. Tammy's jealous ex boyfriend, who happened to be a lawyer, discovered the affair and decided to blow it up. He mailed Debbie a letter exposing Anthony's relationship with Tammy and enclosed one of Anthony's prison love letters as proof. This is the second time now that Debbie has found out about an affair in kind of a weird way, like from somebody sending her something or sharing something a proof of Anthony's infidelity. That does seem very cruel. Yeah, and I'm not sure what the best way to find out that your spouse is having an affair, but.

22:17 Yeah, probably no good way. But that does seem, especially. Especially during this time when Debbie is having this to do sense that they're having a fresh start and maybe Anthony has changed. That must have been particularly devastating at that time. Well for Debbie. It was crushing. She had stood by Anthony through humiliation, disgrace and prison. She had renewed her vows, convinced herself that he had finally changed, and now this she felt like a fool. But instead of confronting him with rage, Debbie played it cool. She showed him the letter, pretended she was willing to move past it, and quietly began calculating her next steps. What would be best for her children? Could she finally break free? And as much as she hated to admit it, some part of her still loved him. Meanwhile, Anthony was drifting. He couldn't land a job, not that he seemed to be trying very hard.

23:06 Their finances were in free fall, and it was only Anthony's mother, Lena, who kept the family afloat. Anthony bought Debbie a new Cadillac as a celebration of their renewed vows, but of course he drove it most of the time. To Anthony, appearances mattered more than anything. A man had to look successful, even if he was broke. He also reconnected with his old prison heroine supplier, Arnie Leedovich. Arnie had been released around the same time, and the two began shooting up Heroin together. Sometimes Anthony even brought Tammy along. Debbie knew something was wrong. He was constantly withdrawing money from their bank account, always dazed and checked out. Then one day in late February nineteen ninety nine, she happened to drive by Tammy's house. Parked in the driveway was her Cadillac, the car that Anthony had claimed for himself.

23:57 That was a breaking point. Debbie pulled in after her minivan in Tammy's driveway and drove the Cadillac home a good way to send a message, huh yeah. When Anthony saw the minivan, he knew instantly what had happened. He called Debbie, desperate, insisting it's not what it looks like. Debbie hung up. She was fed up. She changed the locks on the house, drained nearly all the money from their joint bank account, leaving only five thousand dollars behind. Message received. Anthony moved into an apartment of his own. He called home daily to speak with Ralph and Lauren, but Debbie refused to speak with him. The fallout with Anthony sent Debbie spiraling. She sank into a deep depression. Her neck injuries left her in constant pain, which made it almost impossible to sleep. Exhausted and overwhelmed, she turned to a psychiatrist who prescribed xanax. It helped a little, but never enough. Two days after finding her Cadillac parked at Tammy's house, Debbie hit a breaking point. She took two xanax. When the pills didn't seem to help, she swallowed two more. Her thoughts dull, her body heavy, she reached out for more again. The moment the last pills went down, panic set in. She realized she might have gone too far. Desperate, she called her mother, who immediately dialed nine one one. Debbie was hospitalized for a couple of days, just long enough for the excess xanax to clear from her system. Later, she insisted it wasn't a suicide attempt. She wasn't trying to end her life. She said, she just felt exhausted from the pain, from the sleepless nights,

25:28 from Anthony's betrayals. She wanted relief, not death. But regardless of her intent, the incident left to Mark, and soon what Debbie saw as a moment of weakness would come back to haunt her in ways that she could never have imagined through all of this, Anthony's mother, Lena, had always been his fiercest defender. To her, Anthony could do no wrong. Debbie, with her blue collar background, had never measured up in Lena's eyes, but Anthony's affair with Tammy crossed the line that even Lena couldn't ignore. Furious that her son had been destroyed his family, she unleashed her anger in a blistering letter. I'm not playing games with you now or ever, she wrote. You and your whore deserve each other. I hate you both. If you think you can do this to your family and get away with it, you are nuts. I will not let you hurt or scar my grandchildren. I will get even with you before I die. You don't deserve the Pigmataro name, she went. Wow, I know this is a brutal letter to receive from your mom. She went further. She told Anthony she was cutting him out of her will, that he shouldn't bother showing up to her funeral, and that she intended to advise Debbie to sue him. She closed with a line that must have stung. I never thought I would say it, but I'm glad Daddy's gone. He can't see what you are doing to us. The letter hit its mark. For once, Anthony seemed truly remorseful. He began showing up at the house playing the role of the repentant husband, apologetic, attentive, considerate. When Debbie underwent her fifth and next surgery that April, Anthony was suddenly the

27:01 picture of support. He visited her in the hospital, cared for the kids, and presented himself as the best version of Anthony Pignataro. Yeah, we've seen that before, Anthony. With Anthony, that best version never lasted long. Even as Anthony played the part of the reformed husband, Debbie couldn't shake her unease. She was nervous about being alone in the house, especially after Anthony told her he had received a death threat. Then came the vandalism. One night, someone spray painted killer, Killer Killer across her sliding glass doors and scrawled die fucker on the fence. Debbie was terrified. She reported it to the police, but there were no leads.

27:41 What nagged at her was the silence of her dog, Polo. Polo barked at everyone, delivery drivers, neighbors, strangers walking by, But the night of the vandalism, Polo hadn't made a sound. There was one person he never barked at, and that was Anthony. In May, Anthony asked if he could spend the night. Hadn't been sleeping well, and with the vandalism still fresh in her mind, she wanted the security of another adult in the house. She asked him point blank if he was still seeing Tammy. He swore it was over, and Debbie agreed to let him stay around the same time, Anthony lined up a job interview in Philadelphia with a surgical supply company. Driving across state lines was a clear violation of his probation, but he went anyway. He didn't get the job. By the summer, Anthony was spending more and more time at the duplex. His clothes disappeared from his apartment and reappeared in Debbie's closet. By July of nineteen ninety nine, he was essentially back home. Debbie, still shaken by threats and vandalism, decided it was safer easier to let him back in for good.

28:46 Anthony decided what the family needed was a change of scenery. All of his siblings had moved to Florida. One was a position, the others ran a string of dairy queen franchises. So in Florida, you can probably your dairy queen open year round. Here. If you're in Florida, you'd probably we close them like from this time of year. They're closed usually till March exactly. Anthony figured they could find a place for him there, maybe managing the family business, maybe reinventing himself. There was just one problem, probation. He wasn't allowed. To leave New York. His lawyer thought transferring probation to Florida wouldn't be difficult, but then Judge Tillis reviewed the request and he flatly denied it. The judge explained his concern Florida was too close to Puerto Rico, where Anthony had gone to medical school, and the rest of the Caribbean. If Anthony wanted to vanish and quietly start practicing medicine again, it would be far too easy. Anthony was furious, but Debbie felt a quiet sense of relief. She didn't want to uproot her children or leave behind her mother and brother. Still, the family needed income. With Anthony unemployable, Debbie took a job as a receipt ouptionist in a pediatrician's office. Her modest paycheck, supplemented by Lena's support, was all that kept the household afloat.

30:08 Not long after Anthony began working his way back into Debbie's home and good graces, her health began to falter. In May, she was struck with sudden, excruciating stomach pain and rushed to the er. The doctor suspected pancreatitis. When the pain subsided, they sent her home, and Debby chalked it up to stress. God knew she'd had enough of that. But the relief didn't last. Over the next month, Debby continued to feel sick. She had waves of severe abdominal pain, bouts of vomiting, and a constant bloated, distended feeling. Eating became difficult, food wouldn't stay down. As the weeks went by, her strength drained away. Some days she couldn't do anything but lie in bed.

30:52 She stopped wanting to leave the house. There were good days and bad days, but no pattern, no explanation. Anthony suddenly became the picture of a devoted husband, stepping in to care for Debbie and the children. Her mother pitched in too, picking up groceries and helping around the house. By July, the bad days outnumbered the good. Debbie began missing work more and more. Food tasted strange, metallic, Her memory faltered, life blurred into a haze. One day, she was so disoriented that she wandered into a neighbour's home without realizing it. She couldn't explain what she was doing there. On July twenty first, she was hospitalized again.

31:34 Doctors remained convinced it was pancreatitis, but couldn't explain the cause. When asked what she had eaten, Debbie struggled to remember. Finally, she recalled a bowl of lipt in soup Anthony had made for her just before her symptoms had worsened. Her daughter Lauren had eaten some too, and within hours was violently ill, vomiting and missing her gymnastics meet. Doctors kept Debby in the hospital for four days, but answers now came. On July twenty fifth, she was once again discharged. The next two weeks at home were a blur. Debbie's health spiraled. On August eighth, the friend stopped by and was horrified by her appearance. Debbie was gaunt, weak, barely able to stand.

32:15 The friend confronted Anthony shouldn't Debbie be in the hospital, Anthony snapped, I'm a doctor. Don't you think I would know what's best for her. She's much better off under my supervision. To other friends and family, he brushed it off, Oh she'll be all right, just a little virus. But Debbie wasn't all right by now. She could barely walk. Her limbs alternated between numbness and agonizing pain. Finally, Anthony relented and took her back to the hospital. Doctors ran test after test, lime disease, unlikely, giambret no meningitis, spinal tap rolled it out. Despite their efforts, they were baffled. Debbie's condition was worsening, and.

32:56 No one could explain why. At last, doctors began to suspect something beyond illness. They considered toxins. Debbie loved gardening. She could have accidentally ingested a chemical or a fertilizer. They ran urine tests for possible poisons. The results stunned them. Debbie's body contained arsenic, not just to trace, but a massive, almost unimaginable amount, more than twenty nine thousand micrograms per liter. It was a number so high that doctors could barely process it. They had never seen anything like it before. Frankly, they couldn't believe Debbie was still alive. Suddenly, all her baffling symptoms fell into place. The numbness and memory loss pointed to chronic exposure small doses of arsenic over time. The waves of vomiting, diarrhea and agonizing pain were signs of acute exposure. A massive dose given all at once, someone had been poisoning Debbie. Anthony, of course, rejected the diagnosis.

33:57 He insisted the doctors were wrong. In his medical opinion, Debbie simply needed her gallbladder removed. He practically demanded they perform a Chola systectomy. Her doctors refused. Surgery in her fragile state would have been a death sentence. Instead, they started Debbie on coalation therapy, a grueling treatment that uses binding agents to pull arsenic from the body so that it can be excreted. But Debbie's levels were so dangerously high that even with treatment, survival was far from certain. The process would take nineteen long days, and no one knew if she had that much time. So we've done other cases where we've had arsenic poisoning, and Debbie is really lucky that she's still alive at this point, because some people like their bodies just shut down. Autumn Cline was a case that I did not that long ago, and yeah, she was in really, really bad shape.

34:50 It is really amazing that she was still alive. By law, a diagnosis of arsenic poisoning had to be reported to authorities for the DA and investigat Pat finner Tea and Chuck Craven, the same team who had worked on the Sarah Smith case. The news came as no surprise. Another woman close to Anthony Pignataro was in critical condition. They contacted poison Control to get expert advice. When they explained that the patient's arsenic levels were over twenty nine thousand micrograms per leader, the expert interrupted, when's the funeral? Hearing that Debbie was still alive left them stunned. Investigators sat down with Anthony and asked him directly, did you try to kill your wife? Anthony looked down, hesitated, then muttered, well, I can see how someone would think that. It wasn't a confession, but his body language told the investigators everything they needed to know. Anthony tried to spin the story.

35:45 He admitted he and Debbie had marital problems, but insisted. Those were behind them. Then he floated his own theories. Maybe terrorists had poisoned the county's water supply. It makes perfect sense, doesn't it, Miss. But no one else in the name her hood was sick. When that didn't stick, he blamed Dan Smith, the widower of Sarah Smith, suggesting this was his revenge. But Dan had moved away long ago, and the evidence showed Debbie had been poisoned repeatedly over time. That theory didn't hold much water either. Meanwhile, Debbie began to rally. On August twenty seventh, she left the ICU. The numbness in her arms and legs had turned into searing pain, which to the doctor's was actually a hopeful sign that her nerves weren't completely destroyed. It looked like she would survive, but recovery would be long. Doctors doubted she'd ever walk again.

36:38 Physical therapy focused on her arms and hands in the hope that she could one day at least feed herself and hold a pen. Strangely, Debbie never asked how she could have been poisoned. Maybe she didn't want to know, or maybe she wasn't denial. She even suggested that Anthony and the children be tested for arsenic exposure, remembering how Lauren had been sick after lippd in soup. All of them tested within a normal range, though Laurence levels were slightly elevated. Debbie's mental faculties are still okay. I think so. Yeah. I think she went through a period where she was in a fog, but I think as she recovered in the hospital, her mental acuity came back. That's amazing. Family tensions boiled over at the hospital. Anthony's mother, Lena, who had briefly turned against her son after the affair, was now firmly back in his corner. With Debbie fighting for her life. Lena showed up to lash out at her daughter in law. You did this to yourself and you're trying to frame my son, she snapped. If you really believe that, then get.

37:39 Out of here. Debbie shot back, you know what you did, you liar, liar, Lena screamed. Debbie's brother Carmine ordered her to leave and she never visited again. That is nuts, it really is. And she knew her her son. Was yeah, and Debbie never once even acuesday anthety of doing it, so it wasn't like Debbie was trying to frame him. Lena seemed like even the letter that she wrote to Anthony that we read a little bit of earlier, she just seems to kind of she seems sort of extreme, like she kind of goes from one extreme to the other, Like, Anthony, you're the worst person in the world, Debbie, You're trying to frame myself for murder. Anthony, in contrast, was the picture of devotion. He visited Debbie every day, reassuring her that they were a team and needed to stick together. Investigators pressed on. They collected a sample of Debbie's hair, knowing arsenic leaves a timeline in the strands. The results were damning. Debbie's arsenic levels were normal until June that may began to creep upward.

38:39 In July, they spiked dramatically. Between August tenth and August twenty sixth, the levels surged again, showing two massive doses layered on top of weeks of chronic exposure. It's one of the most interesting things I've learned in doing these cases when there's arsenic poisoning, that the hair is essentially like a timeline. Yeah, that is really interesting. It's really cool. The conclusion was undeniable. Debby had been poisoned deliberately, repeatedly, with both small daily doses and at least two major attempts to finish her off. Investigators were certain Anthony was responsible, but they faced two problems. Debbie wasn't turning at her husband, and they still hadn't found the source of the arsenic.

39:20 A search of the home turned up nothing. Lauren mentioned that her father once placed small tins of aunt poison around the house, but none were recovered. We'll be back after a break. While Debbie was still in the hospital fighting to recover, she and Anthony were blindsided. Both were served with a petition alleging that Ralph and Lauren were neglected children. The state was considering removing them from their parents' custody. For Debbie, it was humiliating. She believed it stemmed from her request that the children be tested for arsenic. Instead of protecting them, she was now accused of failing them. For the time being, the kids were placed with Debbie's brother, Carmine and his wife. Meanwhile, investigators looking into Debbie's poisoning caught a break, and it came from an unlikely source. Arnie Leedevitch, Anthony's old prison buddy and heroine supplier, saw the news about Debbie's poisoning and contacted authorities. By then, Arnie was in custody on misdemeanor drug charges. The DA made it clear there would be no deals. The only thing they could offer was immunity for whatever he revealed. Arnie didn't care. He didn't want leniency. What he asked for instead was help getting into a long term rehab program. And then he dropped the bomb. Anthony, he said, had a girlfriend named Tammy.

40:44 The authorities weren't aware of his girlfriend. The three of them, Anthony, Tammy, and Arnie had done heroin together on multiple occasions. But that wasn't all. Back in May, Anthony had asked Arnie where he could get poison. At first, Arne brushed it off, but in June Anthony raised the subject again. He claimed that Debbie was driving him crazy, checking up on him constantly. She had to go. Anthony told him that was right around the time Debbie first began feeling sick. Arnie told investigators he had made plenty of mistakes as a drug addict, but murder wasn't one. Of them. He wanted no part of Anthony's plans. He agreed to cooperate to make sure Anthony could never hurt anyone again.

41:27 Investigators cross checked his story against phone logs and prison records. The relationship between Anthony and Arnie was real, their contact undeniable. Everything lined up for the first time, investigators had a credible insider willing to testify. Through all of this, Debbie still wasn't ready to turn against Anthony. The DA knew they needed her cooperation, so they sent in Sharon Simon, their victim's advocate, to build trust. It worked. Sharon and Debbie connected almost immediately. Sharon became less like an advocate and more like a therapist. She gently asked Debbie about her childhood, about losing her baby girl, about losing her father. Slowly, Debbie opened up. Over time, Sharon helped Debbie see something that she hadn't admitted to herself. Somewhere along the way, she had lost her own identity. She had poured herself into Anthony's career, into keeping their marriage together, into raising her children. There was nothing left for herself. She couldn't imagine a life without Anthony, because her whole world had been built around him. Sharon didn't push too hard, but she sensed the truth. Deep down. Debbie knew who had poisoned her. She just wasn't ready to face it. The final straw came in mid September. Debbie was still in the hospital when Anthony stopped by for one of his daily visits. Not long after, Dennis Sinta, a family law attorney married to Debbie's cousin Maria, walked into the room.

42:55 He had been helping her with the child neglect case, but that wasn't why he was there that day. Dennis glared at Anthony and snapped, get out and don't come back. Startled. Anthony left. Then Denis turned to Debby. He told her what he had discovered. While she lay in the ICU fighting for her life. Anthony had sent a card to his girl friend. If you knew how much I missed you, he wrote, you would be with me. Anthony had sworn that affair was long over. It wasn't. Dennis didn't mince words. If Debby wanted her children back, she had to cut Anthony out of her life. She couldn't have both. It was Anthony or the kid's for Debby.

43:35 The decision was devastating but clear. With tears in her eyes, she told her family she didn't want Anthony visiting her any more. For the first time, Debby chose herself and her children over Anthony. In October, still confined to a hospital bed, Debby twitched her fingers, then lifted one leg. The nurses burst into tears. After weeks of uncertainty, it felt like a small miracle, but miracles don't pay hospital bills. By the end of the month, Debbie's insurance was running out. Her options were grim transferred to a nursing home style rehab facility, or go home and somehow assemble twenty four hour care that she couldn't afford. Her mother offered to help, but she couldn't be there around the clock. That's when Debbie's friend, Shelley stepped forward. Debbie protested it was too much to ask, but Shelley insisted. For the next six months, Shelley arrived at Debbie's door every morning at six am.

44:33 She dressed her brushed her teeth, did her hair, applied her makeup, the rituals that make a person feel like themselves. Then every four hours, Shelley returned to help with whatever Debbie needed. Shelley sounds like an amazing friend. I know, It's just that's so selfless. Yes. Meanwhile, the children were still living with Debbie's brother while the neglect case worked its way through the courts. Both parents had visitation. Debbie kept her distance from Anthony, seeing him only when their visits happened back to back. Anthony had moved in with his mother any chance he got. He begged Debbie to let him come home, but she stayed firm. After everything, the lies, the affairs, the poisoning, she was finally done for good.

45:17 Did he know the position that he put her in with the children. I think Anthony didn't think about those things. You know, it was all about himself. He didn't really care. But if she let him back in the home, she was endangering her custody of her children. Right, Yeah, I don't think he probably saw it that way. Investigators were still hunting for the source of the arsenic. Their only lead was something Debbie's daughter, Lauren had mentioned she'd seen her dad putting out little tins of ant poison around the house. They knew that taro and Killer, common household product, had contained arsenic decades earlier, and had even been used in several infamous spousal poisonings. But when they contacted the company, they learned Taro hadn't used arsenic for years. The Taro representative did, however, point them toward another manufacturer, Grand Slab, in California, they still produced an ant killer containing arsenic trioxide. When investigators called the company's COO, he confirmed it. Their ant killer contained between point three five and point four six percent arsenic trioxide and was sold in small round tins, similar to what Lauren had described.

46:28 At that concentration, roughly eight tins would hold enough poison to deliver a fatal dose to a one hundred and fifty pounds adult. This really surprised me that at this time, in the late nineteen nineties, that you could still buy ant poison containing arsenic. I would I assumed it had been banned long before that. We to day those things all the time. Yeah, our old house with like parades of ants. Oh yeah, that just. Laughed at us every time whatever we put out. Right, Yeah, but from what I understand today, no ant poisoning or insecticide contains arsenic anymore. Good to know. Checking locally, investigators discovered that a target store in the Buffalo suburb cheek Towaga stocked the Grand Slab's product. Anthony could have walked in and purchased it without anyone noticing.

47:14 If he paid cash, there would be no paper trail. Anthony's credit card records did show purchases at that target store, giving investigators a circumstantial link, but if he'd actually bought the ant killer there, he'd been smart enough to pay cash. By early two thousand, the DA worried that Anthony was preparing to run. They still didn't have enough to charge him with Debby's poisoning, but they did have leverage violations of his probation. Investigators had uncovered two major breaches. Anthony had crossed s date lines for that Philadelphia job interview, and he'd been using drugs. Both were clear violations. On February first, two thousand, Anthony was arrested and taken into custody.

48:00 Lena posted his fifty thousand dollars bail, but this time he was ordered to wear an electronic ankle bracelet. Only days later, Anthony made another mistake. He called Debbie despite a no contact order. Debbie reported this violation. Anthony was hauled back to jail, and this time his bail was set so high that even Lena couldn't cover it. Anthony was stunned to him Debbie's decision to report the call wasn't just compliance with the law, it was betrayal. It may have been the moment he realized for the first time that he had truly lost her. In March two. Thousand, Anthony was sentenced to between sixteen and forty eight months in prison for a violating probation.

48:45 Wow, that's pretty steep. I guess when you violate probation, your sentence is essentially going to prison for the term the rest of the term of your probation. And he was on a five year probation. Period, okay, and then his problems got even worse. A month later, an Eerie County grand jury heard the evidence in Debby's poisoning. In April twenty seventh, Anthony Pignataro was indicted for attempted murder in the second degree, assault in the first degree, and three accounts of criminal possession of a controlled substance in the seventh degree. While the criminal case moved forward, the family court hearings dragged on. Debbi was frustrated she had fought to survive arsenic poisoning and still she didn't have her children back. Caseworkers knew the truth.

49:32 Debbie was blameless, she was a good mother. Quietly, they allowed Ralph and Lauren to spend more time at home, but officially the children remained in limbo. The main obstacle was the xanax overdose from the year before, which some still labeled as a suicide attempt. That single incident hung over Debby's head like a cloud. A trial on the child neglect charges was scheduled for June thirteenth, two thousand. Both Debbie and Anthony would stand as defendants. In the middle of it all, Ralph turned thirteen and he decided to write his father a letter in prison. It wasn't the kind of letter a. Child should ever have to write. Ralph confronted his dad directly, Why are you telling people Mom put you in jail? Why are you feeding Grandma lies about her? What about the heroine and heroin with Tammy?

50:21 Why did you have to be so stupid? Even I know better. You're a doctor. You should definitely know right from wrong. That was wrong. He begged his father to stop poisoning his relationship with Lena, to take responsibility to help his family. Please help out dad, he wrote, I know you want to in your heart. Anthony's reply, in essence, none of it was his fault. At the June hearing, the judge delivered his verdict, Anthony was guilty of child neglect. Debby was found innocent, and then the judge turned to Anthony and spoke words that cut like a knife. You are a miserable human being being who failed everybody. You have done something that is so wrong. You have destroyed your life and inflicted incredible physical and psychological pain on your wife. At long last, Ralph and Lauren were officially allowed.

51:14 To come home and live with Debbie. Do you sometimes wish that you could be a judge so you could deliver like he's just hurts. Yeah? I love it when I read something like that, for someone who so richly deserves to hear those words. But Anthony probably did not hear the words. No, I'm sure he didn't. Even as the family court battle played out, the DA pressed forward with a poisoning case. A trial date was set for October two thousand. Once again, Anthony scoffed at the idea of a plea deal. The problem for prosecutors was that the case was almost entirely circumstantial. Anthony had the motive and the opportunity, but there was no direct evidence tying him to the Arsenic They had Arnie Ledovitch's testimony, but every defense attorney loves to dismantle the credibility of a jailhouse snitch. Then, almost like a floodgate opened, more informants began pouring in. The prosecutor later joke, We've never had so many informants. We had a conga line of them coming across Delaware Avenue to tell us about Anthony Pignataro.

52:16 One was a former patient who claimed Anthony had once said he needed to find someone to kill his wife. Three more were inmates who said that during his current stint in prison, Anthony had been putting out feelers for a hit man to silence Arnie Ledovich. In Anthony's mind, Arnie was the only thing standing between him and an acquittal. In August, investigators arranged for one of the informants to connect Anthony with a supposed hit man who was in reality and undercover Eerie County Deputy Fluent and Spanish. Apparently, Anthony thought that if he spoke Spanish to this alleged hit man on his prison call, that the people listening in to the prison calls wouldn't pick up on what he was talking about.

52:57 Yeah, on a recorded call, Ane Anthony offered ten thousand dollars to have Arny killed. He even provided details about how and when he would deliver payment. That tape was a game changer. The DA brought it straight to Anthony's lawyer, warning that new charges for conspiracy to commit murder were about to be added. Suddenly, Anthony's defiance evaporated. Backed into a corner, Anthony agreed to a deal. He would plead guilty to a lesser charge, withdraw all his motions, and waive his right to appeal. He would admit to poisoning Debbie and supposedly reveal where he got the arsenic. The last part, though he never followed up on authorities never learned exactly how he obtained the poison. In exchange, Anthony's sentence was capped at between five and fifteen years. Sentencing was scheduled for early two thousand and one for Debbie.

53:52 Anthony's admission was more than just legal leverage. It was validation. After years of. Betrayal, denial, and manipulation, he had finally admitted what he had done. It lifted a weight off her shoulders and gave her the freedom to move on. In October two thousand, she filed for divorce. As his sentencing date approached, Anthony turned once again to manipulation. His best hope for leniency, he decided, was Debbie. He wrote letters to her and the kids, begging for forgiveness, asking her to write a supportive letter to the judge. He also wrote to his mother, Lena, instructing her to pressure Debbie on his behalf. In that letter, Anthony's words revealed his true mindset. Even if it's all phony and you don't truly mean it, you could do it for me.

54:41 You will never have to see her again anyway. What she tells Judge Rosetti will determine how much time he gives me. Every day that you save me is worth it. You wouldn't have to see her. You could just call on the phone and be nice. I know it would kill you, but it will help me. But even Lena, his most loyal defender, couldn't bring herself to make that go by this point, she despised Debbie too much, and she wasn't willing to swallow her pride even for her son. It really bothers me that Lena hates Debbie so much, like Debbie is completely blameless at all this. I don't I understand, like wanting to stand by your child, but just seems a little out of touch. Yeah, definitely. Debbie, however, did write a letter to the judge, but it wasn't the glowing endorsement that Anthony had imagined. Instead, she laid bare the truth Anthony's infidelities, his broken promises, the years she had spent trapped in his shadow. She described her long, painful recovery. She could now walk without braces, bathe and feed herself, even drive, but her body was still numb, her legs aching constantly, her hands unable to perform fine motor tasks. She told the judge she wasn't seeking revenge. She only wanted to protect her children, and she would never feel safe with Anthony free on the streets.

55:58 At sentencing, Anthony pleaded for portraying himself as a man who deserved a second chance, but Judge Rosette wasn't swayed. Anthony had been given chance after chance and squandered them all. The judge handed down the maximum fifteen years, the top of the range, and when it came to whether the sentence would run concurrently or consecutively with the four year term he was already serving for probation violation, the judge again showed no mercy. The sentences would be consecutive. Rosette also signed an order of protection for Debbie and the children to last three years after Anthony's eventual release. One week later, Debbie's divorce was finalized. After years of abuse, betrayal, and survival against the odds, she was finally free with time off for good behavior. Anthony Pignataro walked free in twenty thirteen after serving thirteen years. He was fifty five years old. Most people would assume that after poisoning your wife, losing your medical license, and spending over a decade in prison, you might try to keep a low profile. Not Anthony.

57:03 A couple of years after his release, a new business popped up in West Seneca, Tony Hote Cosmetique and Skincare. The business's website introduced Tony Hot as a renowned scientist and physician locals squinted at the headshot on the site. The slick looking Tony Hot bore a suspicious resemblance to a disgraced plastic surgeon. They remembered from the evening news. Reporters dug deeper, and sure enough, Tony Hote was none other than Anthony Pignataro, now operating under a new fancier name. Apparently, in Anthony's mind, you could just swap your last name for something French sounding and pretend the whole murder and poisoning thing had never happened. His website advertised the first and only skincare system formulated from one's own DNA derived plasma.

57:52 He had even managed to get a patent for some pseudo scientific process to treat skin imperfections. Neighbors were and impressed. They told reporters that there were constant deliveries of surgical supplies and a steady stream of women coming and going late at night. One neighbor summed it up perfectly, Some real weird stuff happens there. When journalists confronted Tony Hot for comment, he clammed up. Soon after the state opened an investigation, and just like that, Tony Hote vanished shutting down his website, closing his business and packing up for Florida Wow. Florida business records show that in August twenty seventeen, Tony Hot resurfaced yet again. He registered not one, but two new ventures, Tony Hote Cosmetique LLC and Hate Medical LLC.

58:42 On the paperwork, the registered agent was listed as Anthony Hote MD. Apparently, though even Anthony realized that two more fake companies might not be the best look, because within a year both were quietly dissolved. But Anthony is nothing if not persistent. In twenty nineteen, he popped up in perhaps his most surreal disguise yet as a trustworthy senior caregiver on the website eldercare dot com. Listed simply as Anthony h. He claimed qualifications in administering medications, performing assessments, and providing respite care. Someone who recognized his photo immediately alerted the Buffalo DA, but there wasn't much they could do as long as he wasn't claiming to be a doctor.

59:26 There was nothing technically illegal about Anthony offering his services as a caregiver. Terrifying maybe illegal. No. By twenty twenty, Anthony had formed yet another Florida entity, Hote Enterprises. That company is still active today, though what exactly Anthony is doing with it, if anything, remains a mystery. The last sighting that I found of him was from his Facebook page in January twenty twenty four. There he was Anthony Hote glaring into the camera with a full, obviously fake looking head of hair, trying to smolder. At sixty six years old, he looked less like a disgraced surgeon and more like a B movie villain who just won't stay dead. Wow, was he smoldering or smising?

1:00:10 What is smising? I don't know. I'm not familiar with that word. It's a Tara Banks America's Top next top Model Lefens. I believe will post the picture of him from Facebook, but it just it made me laugh because he looks like he is just looking into the camera, like he is trying to seduce the camera. What was the Facebook post for just a. Picture of himself? In the years after Sarah's death, Dan Smith rebuilt his life. He eventually remarried to his wife, Carrie, and together they raised four children, two from his life with Sarah and two more that they welcomed into the family. Sarah's mother, Barb Grafton, became grandma to all of them. She spends holidays with Dan's family, woven into their lives as family.

1:00:55 That part really touched me because you know Sarah's mom. The fact that Dan still includes ut at her as family, even with their new children. I just think that was really. Heartwarming, very classy. Still the past lingers. After learning about Debbie Pignataro's poisoning, Dan carried a burden of guilt. He said, I thought Debbie and their children would be better off if they had their father come home to them. I was wrong, and in a way, I blame myself that Debbie got poisoned. I never thought he would hurt his own family. If you remember Dan, he really didn't lobby for pign for Anthony to have a long prison sentence. He just wanted his license taking away. No, not at all. Debbie survived, but the arsenic left scars that she'll carry forever. She regained her mobility, but not fully. The numbness, the pain, the loss of fine motor control. These are permanent reminders of what she endured, and yet Debbie found the strength to move forward. As of twenty twenty, she was still living in Buffalo, a grandmother herself, finding joy and watching her grandsons play football. After years years of silence, she finally shared her story not for sympathy, but to give other women the courage to leave abusive relationships before it's too late. Two women, two very different stories, Sarah, whose life was stolen at just twenty six, Debbie, who fought to survive against impossible odds. Both are reminders of the devastation left in Anthony Pignataro's wake, and both are reminders of the strength that it takes to endure and to

1:02:26 choose life beyond abuse. Rest in peace, Sarah and Debbie. We hope that. You're still finding peace, joy and healing in the life that you've rebuilt. Heartbreaking. It is simply heartbreaking that Debbie has to wake up every morning and you know, be reminded instantly when she tries to get out of bed of what her ex. Husband put her through. Yeah, and he is free, and you know who knows what he's doing. He'll find a way to hurt someone else again if he hasn't already. I'm sure. It just seems like he is just bent on you know, well. He's this you know medical, you know expert, and he's. Just a brilliant guy. So he's got to offer his services to the world in some way or another. I have a few questions for you. One thing, I wanted to talk about motive a little bit, because I think his motive in poisoning Debbie is a little bit confusing.

1:03:18 There was a little bit of life insurance, but there wasn't a lot. It wasn't a huge amount of life insurance that would you know, change his life or make him set for life or anything like that, so that probably wasn't a motive. The other possible motive is that he wanted to get rid of Debbie so that he could to make it easier for him to like move to the Caribbean and start medicine. But even that doesn't seem very likely. The interesting thing that the DA said they were speculating that his motive might have been that he wanted Debbie to die in surgery. You remember, he was pushing the doctors to remove her gallbladder, and the doctors were like, no way, she's too weak if she if she undergoes that surgery, she'll probably die. And the DA speculated that for Anthony that would be vindication if his own wife died in surgery, to basically allow him to say that, See, anybody's wife can die in surgery.

1:04:14 I'm curious what you think about that. It's kind of a novel idea, but it's sort of intriguing. Well, I think it's really interesting that you had the option there to say cola systaectomy and you said gull better removal surgery. Yes, it's just how I am. You know, it's my takeaway. No, I think Anthony's a narcissist, and my takeaway is that he just wanted to move on with his life and that. She was in the way. He thought that she was expendable, and he just wanted her dead. I don't think it went as deep as you know, trying to prove that people die in surgery every day. Yeah, you're probably right. One thing I would love to get your opinion on is your Debbie. She stood by Anthony through a lot. There was a lot that on infidelity abuse, you know, his criticism of her. Why do you think she struggled so much to separate and let go of him, and it took a long time and a lot for her to finally get to a point where she was ready.

1:05:13 She loved her husband and she wanted to think the best of him, and it just took a really long time for her to realize that he wasn't the man that she thought he was. Right, they want to believe the people that we marry are good and have the best intentions, and it really does take it. Clearly didn't. And it's easy for us to see, you know, you read a book and for you to see, well, clearly this guy was garbage from the beginning. We talk about the bad stuff all the time on our podcast, I don't think we talk about the good stuff, and a lot of times the good stuff isn't in the books. I'm sure they had moments of you know, love and laughter and warmth together, and they enjoyed, you know, to a certain extent, watching their children grow up together and attend their son's football games. You know, there are probably lovely moments in their marriage, and she hung on to those maybe more than she should have.

1:05:58 Yeah, it's a very good, good point. What do you make of Anthony's sentence? So he served you know, six months for Sarah's death, and then he got fifteen years for poisoning Debbie which he didn't serve all of that. But what do you think of that sentence? Is it was justice? Don Obviously there was not justice there. It's heartbreaking that, you know, Debbie has lifelong injuries from that, and you know, the poor Sarah lost her life. I mean, it's just really sad that he still in a lot of these cases. You know, he hurt people and killed two people that we know of, and you know he's living his life. Yeah, it's kind of ironic that he got more time for Debbie who didn't end up dying, although she did end up suffering for a long time, versus Sarah who did end up dying. But I think the fact that that was, you know, considered more of a medical thing, it was trickier to prove.

1:06:52 I don't think he set out to kill Sarah exactly. One last question with Sarah's death. I think that it is really tricky, if you're thinking of it from a DA's perspective, when something happens, when someone dies in a medical situation like that, it's not something you normally go after and arrest somebody for right. Those are handled with extreme cases lawsuits. Yeah, So do you think the DA handled his crimes appropriately, just. This general sloppiness of his medical training and the basement office and not having the life saving equipment that he should have had. Yeah, I think that they could have gone after him a little harder. But I know those things are really hard to prove, and sometimes juries, you know, those things are kind of nuanced and it's hard for juries to really understand that stuff. You did, actually, I thought a really good job explaining that stuff.

1:07:43 Mm hmm. Yeah, it is tricky. I think for a DA who aren't experts in medical procedures and practices, it was probably difficult for them to feel confident in their case, which is why they ended up offering a plea deal. But ultimately, and we talked about it at the end of part one, you wish that the medical community, the medical licensing board would have found a way to not let him get this far to begin with it. It's frustrating that there weren't more checks and balances in place to stop him from. It's chilling that he was performing these surgeries and he thought he was some sort of you know, miracle doctor. Yeah. I need to mention my main source in this case was Anne Rule's book Last Dance, Last chance. So this is actually a book that was a compilation of multiple stories, but this was the main one in the book. She wrote about three hundred pages on this and she interviewed Debbie, interviewed many people involved in the case, and as always, Anne Rule did an amazing job.

1:08:41 Ye it she rules, she does. She did. This case reminded me so much of Doctor Death. I'm sure a lot of our listeners have listened to Doctor Death. I listened to season one and season two chilling, Yes, horrifying, you listened. To I listened to season one with season two different story. Season two was a doctor Fata who is in the Detroit area. Oh okay, I don't think I listened to that one. Yeah, that one is also just as chilling. Yeah, but yeah, you would think that these people would get caught before they do too much damage. But mm hmm, it's really it's super scary, it really is. Thanks again to Christy for recommending this case. We really appreciate it. A few episodes ago, you told the story of a woman that had gotten engaged to her AI chatbot.

1:09:35 Somebody commented on that episode, Hey, you should look at the story of this woman who fell in love with a chandelier, and so of course that piqued my curiosity and I googled that and it took me down a rabbit hole of people falling in love with inanimate objects, and apparently it's something that happens. So I've got a few examples here. All right, Like they're in love with the inanimate object. Yes, and they would marry it, yes, exactly. So the example that our listener commented on about the woman and the chandelier, this woman, her name is Amanda Liberty, and she wanted to marry a ninety one year old chandelier.

1:10:16 This woman her name is Amanda Liberty because she previously had been in love with the statue of Liberty, and she changed her name to Amanda Liberty. But then she moved on, and then she fell in love with a chandelier. And she changed her name to Amanda Chandelier. I don't know about that, but I would not be surprised. I wish I had a chandelier. I love that much. I hate I hear chandelier's in her house. There were some other examples I found. This is a real thing. A woman married the Berlin wall in nineteen seventy nine, and she changed her last name to Berlin Wall. She said, I find long, slim things with horizontal lines very sexy. The Great Wall of China is attractive, but he's too thick. My husband is sexy. But sadly the Berlin Wall was demolished, so.

1:11:03 She lost her She's a widow. She's a widow. Yes. Another woman married a large stone from her garden, which I think that may have been more performance art, like she was a performance artist. There was a man who married a Barbie doll. In twenty fifteen, a Russian man married a pizza because he said that love between humans is too complicated. But he said that pizza would not reject or betray you, and speaking quite frankly and sincerely, I love it. Well, that's kind of a fleeting romance, there, isn't it, Because pizza doesn't last forever to be like Boloni or something like that. I know because it has so many twinkies. Yes, exactly.

1:11:44 And the last one I have is a man who was featured on TLC's My Strange Addiction. I was going to mention that show sounds yeah, it sounds like something that would belong there. He married fifteen inflatable animals. Well that one move a little more. Well, I guess that I'm going to change my name to Tina water flosser. Water. Oh, that's your inanimate object. I really love my water flosser. And I went to the dentist this week. Oh yeah, the results are pretty good. Yeah, your dentist was quite happy with your relationship with your waterfall. My dentist is really really sweet, and she's always very complimentary of my teeth. Well, because you have perfect teeth. So I mean I have, I have a pretty I have pretty good teeth, but part of it is because she's my dentist. But yeah, I don't know what would you marry if you couldn't marry me.

1:12:33 If I had to marry an inanimate object, I think I would marry my desk, your task. I spend a lot of time in my spend. A lot of time. I'm surprised you didn't say chair or your car. You like your car a lot too. I do like my car. But I really love my desk. It's just so like sleek and smooth, and it does adjust to a standing desk, although you may not know that because I don't. I haven't used it as a standing desk. In a long time. Well, I'm not here to put fun at you. I love you unconditionally, but you do tend to have rose colored glasses on sometimes when you you buy things. I know you're very optimistic. I know because you when you bought the standing desk because you wanted a stand mark.

1:13:15 And then I bought the little treadmill things to go under the standing, and you have. The balance board. I know. But you had a hard time with the desk treadmill. You said it was it's hard to work while you use it, unfortunately, because you're kind of like you're bouncing up and down a little bit, and it's harder than I thought, unfortunately. Yeah, I'm trying to think of what else. I really love. Nothing that I'm in like a long term relationship with it in But I really love. My A wall of water bottle. I think the guy who married the pizza I can relate to that. I know that pizza is fleeting, but there's always going to be another pizza and then another one after that. But then you're cheating on your original pizza, so there's some infidelity there. Yeah, in the end of the day, I'm thankful that I don't have to marry An inanimated object. I'm very happy with you.

1:14:01 Thanks, thanks so much, ditto right back at you. I hear. It's really tough out there in the dating world. So my heart goes out to people who are looking for someone special and aren't able to, you know, find their person, because it's just getting. Harder and harder. Yeah, chandelier might not look so bad. Well. I read a story today, I think it was in People magazine about a woman named Lisa who's forty two years old, and she put a billboard up Marylisa dot com. Wow, and she is looking for actually I think she's forty one, and you can go to mary Lisa dot com and you can apply to get to. Know Lisa she has. It's so I think it's kind of brilliant. Really, she's a really pretty lady.

1:14:45 She seems very accomplished, super smart. I just feel like she's going to get a thousand people she's going to I think. She's already gotten a thousand people. Yeah, but yeah, it's going to be you know, some work weeding through them. I yes, she could be pretty cheesy though at that point if she's got that many people responding. Yeah, So I hope that Lisa finds love. I hope. So we hope everyone out there who is looking for love finds love. Maybe we should have like a dating website. There's this woman that I have followed on and off for years on Instagram. Her name is Kelly Kelly Stamps. She lives in Arkansas. She's very religious, and she believes, like people should, you know, people who love Jesus will be more likely to find love together. And like I'm not kidding. She forty couples.

1:15:32 She has set up forty couples and they have married. Wow, So I think that's super amazing. So you think we should start a Love Mary Killed dating site for people who love. Crime, having the title love Mary Killed. David inside that probably. Probably we're gonna have to work on that. We're gonna have to work on that. What could the case stand for love Mary? Uh? Kiss? There you go, Love Mary Kiss. Yeah, let's let's do it. Maybe we could do that for val on Time's Day, set up some true crime lovers and Kelly has the same problem, like she'll have forty thousand women and six guys. So the six guys, you know, their odds are really good. And I think we have at least four male listeners.

1:16:13 Now, yeah, so those for many. Not that it has to. Be heterosexual relationship. That's true. You know, we can open it up. Who just love. We believe in love. Here love Mary kel love is love. We thank you all so much for sticking with us. I know we've had a few long cases lately, but I think people, I hope people like the detail that we go into. That's usually the feedback we hear. I think our listeners know that we like to get as much detail in there as we can if we can find it. Sometimes you can't find it. I'm working on a case right now that I'm struggling to make long enough. Yeah, it's always really frustrating. It's not that those stories aren't worth telling, that they're not good, they're just short. Yeah. This one, I thought I wasn't going to be able to find enough because there was a couple of shows and they were good, but I wasn't able to find anything.

1:16:58 And then I found that Anne Rule wrote this, Oh this is perfet awesome. Sometimes those shows are wrong too, like the Oxygen shows. They'll leave out details, they have facts in there that they're making up. Yeah, it's kind of weird. That's true. Please rate, review, follow and subscribe. Find us on social media and YouTube, or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. If you're listening on Spotify, we love to see your comments there. Ninety nine percent of our interaction with our listeners is fabulous. Recently have gotten some not so nice comments or people wanting to engage in war, and I'm just never going to engage in war. If you have unkind things to say, or you feel differently than we do at the resolution of a case, that's completely fine, but we're always going to choose peace.

1:17:47 And love until next time. Don't kill your husband and don't. Kill your wife. To the Topick the cont