Diane Downs - Part 1

0:00 Hi, I'm Tina and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife, and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina. How are you? I'm great? How are you? I'm fabulous. I'm excited to record. It's been a minute. It's been a long time, a lot of minutes. Yeah, I'm sure you have a snack for me. But before we get to that, we wanted to just take a minute to talk about something.

0:41 We're changing up a little bit in the podcast. So normally we talk for a few minutes before we have a snack and then we get into the case. I know there are some people out there who really just want to hear the case. They don't really want to hear us chit chat about our day or whatever. So we're going to try to keep the upfront stuff shorter. We're still gonna have our snack, but then we're going to go right into the case and then we'll do some chit chatting at the end. We'll have some fun at the end, and if you want to stick around for that, great and if not, you don't have to. Okay, sounds good. A couple of months ago, Jessica from how Sweet Eats gave us a shout out on her recipe blog, which was very cool. It made my day because I have followed Jessica for years. Again. Her website is howsweeteats dot com and she has so many great recipes that she creates and they all have like a cool twist to them. Some of them are really healthy and some of them are not. But anyway, thank you, Jessica.

1:36 I wanted to make one of your recipes to give to Rich today and he's going to be so excited. I am excited. I made Jessica salted Chewy gooey chocolate chip skillet cookie Salted chewy gooey skillet. Okay, yeah, I did not bring the whole skillet, but I brought you just a little piece, Okay, all right, and I even put a little bit of ice cream top of it. Wow. Nice. How excited are you? I'm like, on a scale one to ten, like thirty five. I it was a really cool recipe because you made the cookie in the skillet, you didn't need a separate bowl. You kind of melted the butter first, and you know I love a brown butter cookie. Why don't you try it.

2:17 We'll take a break and you can try it. Okay, What did you think of the salted, chewy, gooey chocolate chip skillet cookie? That was amazing, really good? Ten out of ten delicious. Yes, he didn't want to share. They had one piece. But find Jessica on Instagram or other social media or just on the Internet. She's amazing. And Jessica lived in Pittsburgh with her husband and three kids, and they love to take vacations in Michigan, just like we do. Oh how cool. Before I dive into today's case, I wanted to talk for writer and rule for a minute.

3:02 Anne Rull was born in Lowell, Michigan, in nineteen thirty one, and died in twenty fifteen at the age of eighty three near Seattle, Washington. Anne was a pioneer in the true crime community and no one has done it better. We might not be here if it wasn't for her work. She wrote thirty five New York Times best selling novels and countless articles in her forty five years as a writer. Thirty five novels, Wow More than twenty million copies of her books have been sold. Many of her books have been made into movies. Anne was a police officer with the Seattle Police Department, following in the footsteps of her grandfather and uncle, who were both sheriffs in Michigan. She went on to write for a true detective magazine under the pen name Andy Stack, as she did with her first three novels. She is best known for the book The Stranger Beside Me about Ted Bundy, whom she personally knew. We've been talking. I bought that book. I haven't read yet, even talking about if we want to do the Ted Bundy case or not. Anne was also a fierce victim advocate. Her daughter, Leslie Rule, followed in her footsteps and became a writer too. She wrote one true crime book, and she's written several paranormal books as well. Now you read Leslie's true crime book, right, Yeah, it was the one about the Liz Gallier Carrie Farvar case, which is one of the craziest cases and really well written book, so Leslie said. She started writing paranormal books because they lived in a haunted house growing up. Oh In nineteen eighty seven, Anne

4:33 wrote the book Small Sacrifices for the case I'm about to present to you about Diane Downes, and dedicated the book to all three of the downs children. I think Anne had a big heart. Anne had five children, and sadly, as her health declined, she was a victim of elder abuse by two of her sons who stole money from her. They were among four of Anne's children who were on her payroll, earning twenty five thousand dollars a month or three hundred thous thousand dollars a year for various responsibilities. One of anne son's admitted to having a gambling addiction and drug problem. I hate when people are so greedy. I know that's really sad too. It's a lot of money to live on. You didn't need to steal from your unless otherwise noted.

5:17 The quotes from today's episode come from Ann's book Small Sacrifices, which I highly recommend. Today's episode contains adult themes and violence against women and children. Please listen with care. On the night of May nineteenth, nineteen eighty three, the Mackenzie William Atte Hospital in Springfield, Oregon was winding down for the night. Springfield is sister city to Eugene, and according to Anne Rule, Springfield is the younger, less polished sister to Eugene. It had been a slow night at the hospital, the usual stitches and broken bones, but nothing out of the ordinary. Er receptionist Judy Patterson, a single mom who worked two jobs, exited the hospital on the warm spring night. Her coworkers told her she could leave early. She was looking forward to getting to bed before midnight.

6:05 The staff working the four pm to midnight shift that night where r. N. Rosie Martin, pregnant LPN Shelby day night receptionist Judy Patterson, and doctor John Mackie, the physician in charge. As Judy walked out the door, a young woman with blonde hair driving a red Nissan Pulsar pulled under the shelter of the emergency room entrance and began honking her horn feverishly. Do you know what a Nissan Pulsar looks like? No? I was just thinking, I don't know if I've even heard of that. It's a small two door car. It doesn't remember what car like. Most cars today I think have four doors. But it was you know how you had to, yeah, pull the seat up to if you want to get in the back pain exactly, yeah, very small in the back, not really a family car.

6:55 The woman yelled, somebody just shot my kids. Judy rushed back inside and called nursing and doctors to hurry outside to help. A call was made to nine one one at ten forty p m. Quote, employee of Mackenzie Williammette Hospital advises of gunshot victims at the location. Officers dispatched arrived at ten forty eight p m end Quote. Rose reached the car first. She reached into the back seat and grabbed a girl with long blonde hair. Christie was her name. Rose carried Christie into the hospital. Doctor John Mackie, the physician in charge, rushed out to assess the situation. He found a young boy, a toddler no more than three, in the back seat. Danny was his name, they'd learned later. He gently picked up Danny from the floor of the small car and carried him inside. He noticed another child crumpled on the floor of the back seat. LPN Shelby Day, in her second trimester of pregnancy, attended to the third child, Cheryl. They heard the blonde woman call her. Cheryl wasn't moving in the slightest. Shelby un wedged her small body from under the passenger seat in the front of the small car.

8:01 Judy paged thoracic surgeon, doctor Stephen Woolheit. He was just pulling into his driveway after a long day when he received the news that three children had been shot and needed his help. He made the return trip to the hospital, normally a twenty minute drive in eight minutes over the hospital's PA system. Judy declared a Code four, which summoned all available personnel to the er. Doctors and nurses rushed to the er to assist with the children. The mother stood stone faced and observed the chaos around her three children. Judy quietly ushered her to the waiting area. Judy thought she must be in shock. As nurse Shelby's suctioned the coagulated blood from Cheryl's throat, she thought it was odd that clots had formed. It usually took some time for clots to form. Cheryl's throat was thick with coagulated blood. She was connected to a heart monitor, but there was no activity. Cheryl had two bullet wounds on her back, one over each shoulder. Doctor Mackie declared her dead After a few minutes, Cheryl was beyond saving. Her wounds were too serious. Her brother and sister were fighting for their lives a few feet away. It didn't look good for them either. Christie was shot twice in the chest. One bullet remained in her small body. A bullet had also greazed her left hand, likely a defense wound. She had no detectable blood pressure, her breath was jagged and irregular, and her pupils were barely reactive. She was intubated, but a hemorrhage in her lung left little room for air, and her right lung was near collapse. The doctors were undeteared by her faltering vital signs and continued to

9:33 work on her. She was given a transfusion of OH negative blood, prompting her vital signs to return. Her color improved quickly. Once she was stable enough, she was brought to surgery. Danny appeared to have suffered from a close range shot at the base of his spine between thoracic vertebrae T six and T seven, which made paralysis a possibility. Stipling surrounded the wound. Stippling was actually present in all of the children's wounds, Danny was conscious but breathing erratically, frequently whimpering when he could draw enough breath to make a sound. Doctors inserted a chest's tube and his breathing rapidly improved, which was good news, of course, but it increased the sound and intensity of his guttural wailing.

10:18 Meanwhile, doctor Wilhight was able to repair the damage to Christie's lungs and stop the bleeding and surgery. The operation was a success, but she awoke in a panic and tried to pull the tubes out of her chest. The task of interviewing the mother fell on to receptionist Judy. The name of the mother of the three children was Elizabeth Diane Downs. She went by Diane. She was twenty seven years old. The children where Christy Anne Ate Chryl Lynde seven now deceased, and Stephen, known as Danny three. Judy hadn't told Diane yet that Christie was dead. Diane was tall, blonde and thin, with a prominent jawline and large, cold eyes. The whites of her eyes were somewhat larger than her cubs. She was very stoic, if emotionless.

11:03 She wore jeans and a plaid button up shirt over a T shirt that said Nantucket. Judy noticed a small spot of blood on the plaid shirt and a beach towel covering Diane's arm from wrist to elbow. Diane said she had been shot too. Judy unwrapped the towel and found three painful, still bleeding wounds. The towel had been carefully wrapped around Diane's arm, as if great care was taken to dress the wound. None of the children's wounds had been attended to. Judy treated Diane's wounds to the best of her ability. The rest of the medical staff was busy attending to the children. She applied antiseptic and wrapped Diane's arm in a bandage. Diane told Judy a man with a gun was after her and her children. Judy called the police and asked them to come to the hospital to speak with Diane and to protect the er from the potential attacker. Diane had trouble remembering where the shooting had taken place, but she said she and her kids were driving home from visiting a friend when she saw a man standing in the middle of the road. Diane stopped the car and got out to see if he needed help. Okay, do you see a problem there. Yeah, So she's on a dark highway, nine thirty at night with her three kids in the car. How many women would stop the car to see if a man needed help? Yeah, probably not many.

12:18 She described the man as quote he was white, in his late twenties, about five feet nine inches, one hundred and fifty to one hundred and seventy pounds. He had dark hair, a shag wavy cut, and a stubble of a beard, maybe one or two days growth. Levi's, a Levi jacket, a dirty maybe off color light t shirt end quote. The man demanded Diane give him the keys to the car. When she refused, the man pushed her out of the way, approached the red car, reached in, shot the three children, and then shot Diane in her left arm. Do you think that's a little suspicious that she was shot in her left arm? She was right handed. Yeah, it seems a little slightly strange.

13:00 Christy later recalled that Duran Duran's hungry like the wolf played during the incident. Diane pretended to throw the car keys to distract the man. She jumped in the car and headed to the nearest hospital. Diane claimed that she drove like a lunatic. While they waited for the police to arrive, Diane called her parents, Wes and Willadeine Frederickson, who lived only about two miles away from the hospital. They raced there and they rushed to get to the hospital west for good its dentures. He dropped Willodeine off and then returned home to get them. At ten forty eight pm, eight minutes after Judy had hung up with the dispatcher, the police arrived. During questioning, Diane's memory started drifting back to her. She recalled a yellow car on the side of the road. She said it must have been the attacker's car. Police noted Diane's intelligence and articulate speech. She recalled things in great detail. She told the detectives quote, there are eight levels of intelligence, and I'm the seventh level.

13:56 So googled that. I googled it. I could not find anything confirming that that's actually there's actually eight levels of intelligc if there are. It's just such a weird thing to say to detectives when you're you know people that are like really intelligent and then constantly tell you that they were, like I know this one woman that tells me every time I see it, cat comes up in conversation. Well, when I was in school, I was in the gifted program. Just cracks me up, Diane said. The incident with a gunman happened on Old Mohawk Road, a rural road without much traffic. Police, along with Diane and her father, drove the road and tried to find the exact spot where the shooting had happened. Roadblocks were erected and search teams with scent dogs were sent out in an attempt to find the gunman. Divers would search the water for the gun at daylight. After Diane and her father returned from Old Mohawk Road, Diane was told that one of her daughters had not survived, but no one was sure which child it was. Wes identified the little girl as seven year old Cheryl. Either Diane nor West display made much emotion. Okay, so Diane, you know her kids, her three babies are in the emergency room, and then the police asked her to go, you know, tell them where the incident happened. There's no way that we would leave our babies. Yeah. A doctor fixed up Diane's wounds.

15:16 He noticed a tattoo on her left shoulder, a large rose with the name Nick printed beside it. Who was Nick, the doctor wondered. Diane implored the doctor not to mention the tattoo to her father. Diane was given a gunshot residue test and a blood test. She tested negative for gunshot residue and drugs and alcohol. Dan permitted her apartment to be searched, but before police left to search her home, she told them I owned two guns, a twenty two and a rifle. She said she needed the weapons for protection. Her ex husband, step and Duayne Downs twenty eight, was a violent man with the history of beating her. Danne also mentioned that there was a thirty eight that she kept in the trunk. A lot of people point to the negative gunshot residue test as oh, Diane could not have shot her children.

16:06 How easily do you think it is to remove gunshot residue from your hands after you've shot a gun. Well, in my extensive research that I've done on this topic, you can't. You definitely can wash it off. I'm sure it's not one hundred percent guaranteed that if you wash your hands or you know, wipe it on your clothing or whatever afterwards that it's going to come off, But I think it can. So I think the absence of gunshot residue is not proof that you did not fire a gun, and she could have been wearing gloves. True, there are conflicting reports as to whether Diane washed her hands when she got to the hospital or not. Okay, so we're not sure if she did or not. Yeah. Diane Elizabeth Fredrickson Downs was born on August seventh, nineteen fifty five, to Wes and will Adein Frederckson and Phoenix, Arizona. I love the name will Adeine. Is that I say? Her mother was just seventeen and her father twenty five. They were members of the Southern Baptist Church. They attended church three times a week.

17:02 Will Adean became a housewife and stay at home mom. She was and remained submissive to her husband throughout her marriage. Wes always came before her or the children. Will Adean had five children in eight years. Diane, John, Kathy, James, and Paul. Wes worked as the postmaster in the small town where they lived. Diane craved more attention from her harried mother than she was able to give. Wes was militant and controlling with the children. He made a lot of rules. When Diane didn't have homework, her father made her read the dictionary. I believe my mom made me read the dictionary too. Really, I used to read the dictionary for fun. You have a dictionary with my name? Mom? Oh my god, could you sound?

17:47 I tell you what my IQ is. By the way, why do you have an I'm going to give you this one. Why do you have a dictionary with your name out? It rich? Because I won the spelling spelling bee in sixth grade and they gave me a dictionary with my name names spelled wrong, and so I went to my principal. They went back and they got me another one. So I had two, one with my names spelled wrong and one with it spelled right. But I don't know what happened had the other one. So the one we have has your name spelled right. I think. So. Yeah. For some reason, we had, like you know that the Webster's dictionary that used to have in your school library. It was like two million pages. We had one of those and it was really fun to page through. I'm not going to tell you. Someday, we'll have to tell you the story about spelling Bee and our son, and how I've never been angrier and in my life he was robbed. He was.

18:37 Diane was exceptionally bright, but had trouble making friends in school. She became a loner. She said quote. When I was a child, I didn't feel like a total misfit. I thought everyone lived the same way I did. I knew there were things I didn't like, but I thought it was normal. I did not rebel for a very long time. I was an introvert, and I did a lot of listening and watching of people. As I grew, I began to make a distinction between what I liked about life and what I didn't like. And even though I never expressed myself, either because I wasn't allowed to or because I didn't have the confidence, I still adopted ideas that I would apply to my adult life. End quote. Diane yearned to be a doctor, get rich, and live in a mansion.

19:19 I think every kid has that dream. Well, I guess we all read out the doctor part, but yeah, the rest of it for sure. Diane's teen years were hard. She was not allowed to dress or style her hair like other girls. Her social life was non existent and she felt invisible. When Diane was twelve, will Adeine got a job working as a postal clerk. On the late shift after the other children went to bed, Wes would come into Diane's room and molest her. She couldn't exactly recall if the abuse involved intercourse, but thought she may have suppressed the memory. Diane in fact blocked a lot of her childhood out. She said that she would often zone out when she was in uncomfortable situations. Some times, Wes took Diane for rides in the car and molested her there. On one of these rides, a police officer pulled Wes over. Diane's shirt was unbuttoned and her bra was undone. The officer asked her if she was okay, and Diane came up with an excuse on the fly. She said she'd been to a doctor and she'd gotten a shot and she that's why her shirt was undone.

20:21 The officer told Wes to get out of the car and had a stern talking to with him. Diane doesn't know what the officer said to her father, but the sexual abuse stopped. Diane thinks that the abuse lasted for about a year. When she was fourteen, her parents enrolled her in charm school to help boost her confidence. It helped a little. Diane gradually felt more comfortable in her skin and became more talkative. Some boys from her church started to notice her. When she was fifteen, a junior in high school, she fell for the boy next door, Steve Downs. She said quote, he came to see me, he came to support me. He beat people up over me. He made me feel important. He had long hair and never wore a shirt. He was rebellious. He was everything my parents didn't like, so I chose Steve. Wes hated Steve. Diane developed a troubling habit.

21:14 In retaliation against her father's attempts to control her. She would rake her fingernails across her face, which left bloody trails behind. When she was angry or frustrated. West would stare open mouthed as she mutilated her face. That's disturbing, I know. In June nineteen seventy two, Steve enlisted in the Navy. Dianne graduated from high school a semester early and enrolled in Pacific Coast Baptist Bible College in Long Beach, California, with her father's blessing. She studied to be a Christian missionary. Diane lasted for about a year before being expelled for promiscuity. The rumor on campus was that she'd had sex with another student on the altar of the church. That's a no no. Steve returned from his tour. He and I Anne spent as much time together as they could, to the ire of her father. One night, after Diane didn't come home, Wess appeared with a shotgun and told Steve to either marry Diane or leave her alone. They married a week later on November thirteenth, nineteen seventy three. True story, My dad went after one of my sister's boyfriends with a shotgun. Are you serious? Boy? Diane was leaving one controlling man for another. Diane was lonely, and she got a puppy. Two weeks after their wedding, Steve had a date with another woman. He claimed he'd made the date before their wedding and it would be wrong to cancer rude, right, honey, I know we're married, but I made this date

22:44 before we were married, and you got to keep the date. You don't want to be rude, right. Diane ironed his white pants for the date that's very understanding of her. Steve didn't return home until three am. Diane realized that marrying Steve was a mistake. He didn't love her with the all consuming love that she yearned for. Steve wanted to wait a few years to have a baby. They were both just eighteen, but unbeknownst to Steve, Diane threw away her birth control. She was pregnant within a month. Diane was very fertile, so she realized that marrying Steve was a mistake, but she still threw away her birth control. Diane made a lot of bad decisions.

23:26 Steve was a good looking, rugged man. He caught the eye of a modeling scout. He was hired by Jillette to do a commercial for their razors. Steve hung his entire future on the opportunity, but unfortunately, while working on a car, there was an explosion that caused severe burns to his face. His modeling career was over before it started. After Christy was born in October nineteen seventy four, Diane's whole world shifted. She said, quote, my goal had been reached. I finally found true love and peace with another human being, my daughter. While Christie grew inside of me. I knew for the first time in my life what love was. That was the first time in my life that I was needed, really needed. I finally had a reason to exist, and I was happy, truly happy. The happiness I felt when my child moved inside of me was intoxicating. It never stopped, and after my child was born, I was even happier because now I wasn't the only one in love. Christie too, loved me. When I would peer into her crib, she would reach for me and grin.

24:29 She was so excited to see me, she would kick her little feet so hard it would shake the whole crib. I loved her. Steve took a back seat to Christie, but he didn't mind. The baby kept Diane busy, and she didn't mind as much when he slipped out at night. Diane worked part time at a bank, barely making enough to pay the babysitter. She was frustrated that there wasn't enough time or money for her to go to school. She knew her marriage to Steve was not going to last, and she didn't want to be a single mother without a career to provide for her and Christy. In a spontaneous decision. When Christy was about six months old, Diane joined the Air Force. She lasted three weeks before she begged Steve to help her get out. Isn't it crazy that she was just like, I'm going to join the Air Force? That is crazy? And can you just get out of the Air Force? You just say sorry, I made a mistake. I don't want to do this anymore. Yeah, they're not going to be happy about it, but they're not going to make you stay.

25:26 Diane soon became pregnant with her second baby. Cheryl, was born on January tenth, nineteen seventy six. The last thing Diane and Steve needed in their tenuous marriage was a calaguy baby. Cheryl cried day and night. Steve was sullen. He hadn't wanted another child, but if he had to have another child, he'd wanted a son. At twenty one, Steve got a vasectomy. He was sure he didn't want more children and knew they couldn't afford another mouth to feed. Steve failed to show up for the important follow up appointment, and Diane soon became pregnant again. Like we said, she was very fertile. I guess so Diane said, quote, I was twenty years old. I had two kids. My parents were pressuring me to potty train Christie. Cheryl was callagy. My husband was a bastard. I couldn't take any more pressure. I decided to have an abortion end quote, a decision that haunted her for years to come. She named the aborted baby Carrie and never forgot about her. Steve returned to the doctor for a second of a sectomy. This time he went to the follow up appointment. On Halloween nineteen seventy six, Diane left Steve. She took the baby girls and went to Texas to stay with her uncle. It took Steve a couple of weeks to track her down. Each party has a different version of events. Diane said Steve begged her to come home. Steve said Diane came home on her own.

26:52 Which one do you think is true? I'm not sure, but their marriage was very unstable and Diane left often. Okay. A year later, Diane left again and moved in with her sister in Flagstaff. She worked as a cement truck driver until she was raped by her boss. She went home to Steve again. Steve never had a steady job. He went from one job to the next. In nineteen seventy eight, both Steve and Diane were working at the Palm Harbor Mobile home Company. Diane asked him to reverse his vasectomy. She loved being pregnant. It filled a void inside of her. Diane wanted to replace Carrie. She thought maybe she could become pregnant again with her spirit. Steve was adamant that he didn't want another child. She took a lover at her job. Diane twenty three, became pregnant by a nineteen year old named Russ Phillips. Russ wanted to get married, but Diane had no interest. Diane quit her job at the mobile home company and began working as a postal carrier at the Chandler Post Office. Stephen Daniel Downs was born on Saturday, December twenty ninth, nineteen seventy nine. Diane returned to work the following Monday Wow. Steve knew the baby wasn't his. He told Diane she would have to leave, but, to both Diane and his surprise, once Danny was born, he fell in love with him. Diane became depressed and moody. She yelled at the children and sometimes hit them. The house was chaotic and loud. Something was always broken, and there was never enough

28:26 money. Diane and Steve fought constantly, and their fights often became physical. Diane and Steve weren't the best parents. There was never enough food in the house for three growing children. Neighbors saw them playing outside barefoot and coatless in the winter. Sometimes they left the children home alone, leaving six year old Christy in charge when they went out at night. It sounds like a really bad situation. They were so young to have three kids, barely in their twenties. Yeah, we'll be back after a break. In April nineteen eighty, Diane was watching the Phil Donahue show. Do you remember Donahue? Of course, I love Donahue. The topic of the show was surrogacy, which in nineteen eighty was a medical breakthrough. Diane decided to apply to become a surrogate. Her application was less than honest, underestimating her drug and alcohol use, the ease of her previous pregnancies, and the state of her marriage.

29:26 She also failed to disclose her previous abortion. Diane was excited to collect the ten thousand dollars surrogacy fee. It would give her the financial freedom to leave her dismal marriage to Steve. In anticipation of the surrogacy windfall, Diane and Steve purchased a home in Chandler, Arizona, for sixty thousand dollars. Diane and Steve were both subjected to psychological evaluations for the surrogacy. Diane's report was less than favorable, and excerpt reads quote, there is considerable neurotic interplay both in this ma marriage and in this woman's total adjustment to life. This would not necessarily incapacitate her as a surrogate mother, but I would like to see a psychological report end quote. Diane was given ten psychological inventories, among them an IQ test, the MMPI or the Minnesota Multifacic Personality Inventory, and the rorshack ink blot test. That's very thorough. I'll say the reports determined that Diane was of superior intelligence, but the quote findings were consistent with, but not absolutely diagnostic, of a major psychopathology end quote. I'm not sure what a major major psychopathology is, but I'm guessing it's not a good thing.

30:45 The battery of tests collectively painted a picture of Diane being a unique individual. Outwardly confident but inwardly struggling with confidence and self image. Her ego was non existent. One psychologist said, quote, a clear cut neurotic picture is not present. Similar individuals display frequent self deprecation and are seen as very unguarded and without normal social defenses. They do not typically take advantage of normal social feedback. This individual has poor ability to express anger and a modulated fashion, and tends to have poor behavioral controls despite a somewhat flamboyant facade, This woman tends to be shy, timid, and retiring. Psychologists weren't sure if she was able to mask her psychopathy due to her intelligence, but they were unable to diagnose her with the condition at that time. They knew there were some underlying psychological issues, but they couldn't put a finger on it. In my unexpert opinion, I think Diane was still very young, and some psychological personality disorders don't surface until you're a little older. But it's also possible because of her intelligence when she was taking the test, she could have been like, wait a minute, I've taken personality to test before, and if a question like is continuously repeated but rewarded slightly differently. You kind of can tell what they're getting at. Yeah, do you know what I'm talking about? Not even if they're repeated, but just any question. You're kind of looking at it and you're like, you know, if you feel like you want to be

32:16 in some category or whatever, you kind of know how you're supposed to answer, right, Yeah, have you tested positive psychopathy? Nope? Same. Diane wanted to be a surrogate, partially to be mgnanimous. She said, did I say that right? I'm not as smart as you. I can't say these big words. She said. She wanted to help create a family. One doctor thought Diane had indicators of histrionic personality disorder and feared that she would be unable to give up the baby after it was born. However, she was deemed to be a worthy candidate for surrogacy partially because of her age, exceptional health, and three perfectly healthy children. So all that though those all of those battery of tests kind of showed that there was something wrong, they couldn't put their finger on it. But they're like, yeah, she can be a certain It seems really crazy to me that they First of all, I wouldn't have guessed that they ran that many tests on somebody to be a surrogate. A second of all, yeah, you would think if you're going to run all those tests, you might want to take it into account into the decision, oh for sure. And the parents, you know, the potential parents. Something that I didn't know. Maybe everyone else knows this, but in Diane's procedures, her egg was actually used, so her psychology was very important. Yeah, for sure. I think today in a lot of cases there's a difference between a surrogate and a gestational carrier. A gestational carrier has an embryo planet implanted inside of them, right, But we still

33:50 use the term surrogacy more than gestational carrier. Okay. Finally, in nineteen eighty one, Diane and Steve decided to divorce. Steve said he'd move out at the house for five thousand dollars. Diane borrowed the money from a man she'd been having an affair with. He and his two children moved in with Diane, but it only lasted a few months. He didn't like Diane's parenting style and she started yelling at his kids too. In the fall, Christy was in school all day, Danny was in daycare, and Cheryl was in half day kindergarten. Cheryl would wait outside the house until Diane got off work at two pm. Often, a kind neighbor, Mary Ward, would invite Cheryl into her house. She'd give her lunch, and Cheryl played with her children until Diane returned home. Mary eventually began caring for all the children before and after school. Can you imagine your little five year old just sitting outside her No, that's really In September, Diane traveled to Kentucky to be inseminated.

34:49 She became pregnant due on May tenth, nineteen eighty two. She was in her happy place once again. Dane was featured in an article in The Washington Post from nineteen eighty three by Elizabeth Bumiller titled Mothers for Others and the article, Diane said, quote, I had a purpose for being here, And that's when my whole hang up. Since I was a little kid. Why am I here just so my dad can yell at me, just so my husband can criticize me? Just to take care of my kids? These people needed me. It made me somebody. I told the parents that the baby did more for me than I ever did for them. End quote. Interestingly, in the article, Diane also said that she had a new boyfriend.

35:30 She said that they planned to get married after the pregnancy. During the pregnancy, Diane began several brief affairs with men at the Chandler post office. She had a reputation for being a rabid lover. She liked to scratch, claw and bite, even drawing blood sometimes. Diane was a flirt, but she was very good at her job. She prided herself in her efficiency. She was often able to finish her route faster than most of the men. The Suriga baby was born on May eighth, nineteen eighty in Kentucky. Diane flew into Louisville a couple of days before she was to be induced. The parents were present at the birth of the baby girl. Diane relinquished her parental rights and flew back to Arizona with a check for ten thousand dollars. They appreciated what Diane did for them, but never contacted her again. Diane tried to send gifts, but they were refused and returned. This saddened her in her head. She named the baby Jennifer, and she never forgot her.

36:30 Diane couldn't afford the house on her own. She sold it and bought a new trailer. Among all the men that Diane betted, none of them stuck until Robert Nick Knickerbucker. Diane was so sure of their future together that she tattooed arose on her left shoulder with Nick's name beneath it in his handwriting. He was about a decade older. He was shortish, muscular, and bearded. He was gentle kind and loving. He treated Diane tenderly, the first person ever to do so in her life. He loved his wife of ten years, Charlene, but Diane was seductive and fun. The affair lasted several months. When Diane told Nick she thought she had a venereal disease, he knew he needed to come clean to Charlene. It's unclear if Diane had an STD or if she was trying to break up the marriage. Charlene forgave her husband. He had had affairs before and had always returned to her. Charlene is very forgiving. Apparently, Diane flew to Kentucky to be inseminated for another surrogate pregnancy while she was being treated for an STD. Probably not not the best time to get pregnanty No. This time, she did not conceive.

37:43 She had planned for Nick to pick her up from the airport, but when she got off the plane, Steve was there. Diane was crushed. Steve asked Diane to consider a reconciliation. She only wanted Nick. She became suicidal. She took a gun into the bathroom of her mobile home and told him she was going to shoot herself. The noise of a gunshot cracked through the air of the trailer. Steve broke down the door to find Diane sitting in the tub. She hadn't shot herself, she had shot through the floor of the trailer. Diane began taking clovid to stimulate her eggs before her next insemination. In October. When she left for the procedure in Kentucky, which would again be unsuccessful, there was a fire in her trailer. It was caused by faulty wiring, which was suspicious because the trailer was only six months old.

38:32 She received seven thousand dollars in damages from the insurance claim. Later it was learned that Steve and Diane had planned the fire for insurance money, but Steve started the fire in the bedroom and then closed the door. It didn't spread and total the trailer like they'd planned. Steve said he would repair the trailer, but he never did. It was livable, but barely and not ideal for young children. The amoti of insurance fraud in these cases is baffling. Does seem to happen a lot, doesn't it. Diane and Nick rekindled their relationship. They spent every day together. He told Diane he was going to divorce Charlene to be with her, but he made it clear he had no interest in being a father to Diane's children. He'd never seen himself as a father. He was so sure he didn't want children. He'd reportedly had of aaseectomy when he was younger. Charlene, however, refused to divorce him.

39:25 Diane rented an apartment for them to live together, but Nick never moved in. Diane harassed Charlene. She called her and hung up multiple times a day, and wrote letters taunting her. The lives of the children remained hectic. They were shuttled between Steve's house and Diane's burned trailer. They'd stayed with friends, and sometimes they'd go to Diane's parents for a few weeks. When they were with Diane, they were neglected. There wasn't enough structure, affection, food, discipline, or appropriate clothing. Diane was consumed with bettering herself to make more money and have more stature in the world. She wanted to build a mansion for her nick and the children. She would constantly sketch designs for her dream home. One semester, she'd signed up for more than twenty credit hours at the community college. She still dreamed of going to medical school.

40:16 After a few weeks of the hectic schedule, she had to quit. There was no time for her boyfriend, so she was still working full time during this time too, as a male carrier. Diane decided to start a surrogacy clinic Arizona Surrogate Parenting. She rented office space and claimed that she had five women lined up to become surrogates, but in reality it was just her and her sister. But Diane was still under contract with the Kentucky Clinic. Charlene Knickerbocker called the Kentucky Clinic and notified them of Diane's recent std and they severed ties with her. As you can imagine, starting a surrogacy clinic would require a vast amount of medical and legal expertise, neither of which Diane possessed.

41:00 Her practice never got off the ground, but Nick had finally committed to her kind of Here's an excerpt from Diane's diary in February nineteen eighty three. I could hardly believe my ears today. Nick said he would live in the same house with my kids and me. Of course, then he said he would have to marry my ass. But I think I can talk him into all of me. I'm so happy. Just when I thought Nick would call off our relationship, he said that he would marry me and live with my kids. But before I get too excited, I'll wait awhile he could take another look at the situation and change his mind. I hope he doesn't. I sure love him. Instead of moving in with Diane, Nick rented an apartment. Not ideal, but a step in the right direction, Diane thought.

41:47 But she began to push too hard, he said. Quote. Diane asked me who I loved the most, her or Charlene. I said I loved Charlene. She blew up. She ranted and raved and sc screamed at me. I'd never seen anyone act that way before. She just lost it. I know it sounds silly, but the final straw was when she broke my hair brush on the quote. Ye, that's a line you just do not cross. You go break a man's hair brush. Nick stormed out and went home to Charlene. Diane followed him. She pounded on their door for hours and then resorted to calling their phone all night. Diane happened to be the Knickerbocker's mail carrier. Oh. The next day she knocked on their door.

42:30 Charlene said, quote, she began to tell me what I should do about my marriage, my relationship with Nick, everything, and I just lost my cool. She'd hurt him so much. I don't usually swear, but I told her fuck off, and I slammed the door in her face. Unquote. Nick was done with Diane for good, not really. He and Charlene went to Texas for two weeks to visit family. Diane called the house he was staying at one night. Nick had no idea how she got the number. He was tired of Diane and her games. While Nick was in Texas, Diane applied for a job transfer to Eugene, Oregon. The transfer was quickly accepted with the help of her father, Remember, he worked for the postal system. Her transfer date was April first. When Nick returned to Arizona, he and Diane resumed the relationship. He asked her not to transfer to Oregon. He gave her his gold chain that he never took off, and he finally got the matching rose tattoo that she'd always asked him to get.

43:30 Diane attempted to cancel the transfer, but it was too late. She had no choice but to move to Oregon. Nick helped her pack, He met her parents, Wes Frederickson offered him a job in Oregon. Diane was sure Nick would follow her to Oregon to begin their life together. So they're both playing games like Nick kind of played games with Diane too, It wasn't just Diane. Yeah, it sounds like he would get tired of her and then be right back. As Diane drove away from Nick, his head cleared and he decided he wanted to reconcile with Charlene. He told Diane it was over and stopped taking her calls, but she called the Chandler post office every morning and tried to get him on the phone, but he refused to talk to her. Diane sent Nick letters, cards, and small gifts daily, but he began refusing mail from her. Their mail game was probably really strong, whereas they posted Yeah. Her diary, which she frequently wrote in, was all about Nick. In one passage, she wrote, quote, don't doubt me, babe, There's no one but you. I'll never let anyone touch me but you. You are my mate end quote, and in other entries she said quote no one will replace you in my bed or my heart end quote. But that wasn't exactly true. Diane had bundles of love letters save for Nick, but she was also seeing other men at the same time.

44:52 Why am I not surprised? Despite desperately waiting for Nick to arrive in Oregon, Diane began a relationship one of them, who was training her in the Eugene office. On April twenty eighth, about a month after she left Chandler, Diane returned to give Nick his gold chain back. Did you ever wear a gold chain? I've never wanted a Chaine. We're big back in the eighties. I think Diane tracked him down on his mail route. She was barefoot, wearing jeans and a string bikini top. Nick was surprised to see her, She asked him to unclasp the chain around her neck. Nick said, quote, I only said about twenty words to her the whole time she was there. I told her I wasn't going to Oregon. I told her I just didn't want to be a daddy. She talked at me like always end quote. Diane returned to Oregon and didn't contact Nick again until May nineteenth. One of the last diary entries was on May thirteenth, nineteen eighty three. Diane, it seemed, shifted her focus from Nick to her children.

45:53 Quote, well, Sweetie, I love talking to you, but I have my own life here. I have three beautiful children I love more than anyone else. I think I even love them more than you now. They stand by me no matter what. Danny says. He's my best buddy, and I'm his best buddy. He's always giving me kisses and hugs. Every morning when I go to work, he waves and says, my mom, pick me up after work. I love you. He's beautiful and always so happy. Christy and Cheryl are fantastic in their own right. Also, Chris is so smart. She always gets a's and she is always willing to help. She drew a picture. You'll never believe what the picture was of you. She drew you with me and your thought bubble. Pretty smart, huh, She's so very bright. I'll bet she really does become a lawyer when she grows up. She's been saying it for almost a year now. And Cheryl so full of bubbly energy. She's so agile, always doing flips and acrobatics. I'm considering getting her into gymnastics. But she's just as sweet as cuddly as Danny. When I get to my mom's house after work, she always wants to sit on my lap and be close. And she's the one that always thinks of giving me flowers. End quote. So the diary at this point, it makes this dramatic shift from everything's about Nick and how much she loves him, and then this last entry she talks about her kids and how much she loves him, which kind of seemed suspicious and maybe sort of an alibi, and she knew the police would find it. Remember when she was in the emergency room, she asked the police, when you go to

47:23 my apartment, bring me back my diary, which was an odd request. Yeah, strange. Diane dropped the three children off early in the morning of May nineteenth at her parents' house. Like most days, will Adeine helped Diane out with the children a lot. She fed the girl's breakfast before they walked to school. Then she and Danny spent the day together playing and running errands while Diane worked her postal route. Diane and the kids often ate dinner at Wes and will Adeane's house, but on May nineteenth, Diane took the kids home after work and fed them canned ravioli for dinner. Later that night, they went out on an adventure to see a friend's horse who lived in the country. Diane enjoyed her freedom with Christy, Cheryl, and Danny without anyone telling her what was appropriate. They were enjoying exploring their new state of Oregon.

48:12 They often went to the beach or on hikes. On that fateful evening, they were confronted by the armed stranger on the dark rural road at about nine thirty pm. Diane claimed they took Old Mohawk Road that night because she liked to take new, unfamiliar roads. Life was an adventure, But at nine thirty at night, it was dark like we talked about earlier, and she had her three kids in the like I doesn't add up no. While Christy and Danny fought for their lives in the hospital, the police began the investigation and manhunt into the shooting on Old Mohawk Road, but the Springfield, Oregon Police already had a suspect in their sights. Along the crime scene on Old Mohawk Road, two twenty two caliber bullet casings were found in Diane's car.

48:59 Four more bulls casings were found. One forty nine man hours were spent looking for the discarded gun used in the shooting and in the icy waters of the Mohawk River, but it was never found. It was the key piece of evidence investigators needed. Do you remember when Diane shot the gun into the floor of the trailer when she was feeling suicidal. Investigators went to the abandoned trailer in hopes of finding the bullet casing to tie it to the shooting. They searched for a day and a half in the scorching Arizona heat, sifting through the rocks, sand and clay under the trailer, and eventually they found it. They jumped up and down with excitement. They thought that this might be enough to arrest Diane. The bullet wasn't in great shape. About half of it was rusted and had lost the unique markings that that the twenty two pestle had left. When the ballistic tests were returned, they weren't one hundred percent certain that the weathered bullet could have been fire from the same gun that shot Cheryl, Christy and Danny, which was a huge blow to the investigation and there was just no way that this evidence would hold up in court.

50:10 Investigators were determined to find bullet casings that had been shot from the twenty two pistols Steve and Diane owned. They even went to Mexico to search Steve's old truck that had been sold to someone there. They weren't able to find any bullet casings in it. Investigators searched Diane's duplex. It was a depressing place. Boxes were still stacked up against the walls, and there was little furniture in the whole apartment, only a TV and one chair in the living room and the kitchen there wasn't a table, there were no chairs, and the kitchen was largely unpacked. There was little to no food in the refrigerator. A large can of ravioli was found in the garbage. At least the children had eaten dinner that night. There were no decorations in the house, but four photos lined the top of the TV, two large photos of Diane and two two smaller photos of a man with a beard. There were no photos of the children. There was a small garfield figurine and a nine inch tall brass unicorn statue with an engraving that read Christy, Cheryl and Danny, I Love you Mom. May thirteenth, nineteen eighty three. Investigators believed that the unicorn was possibly a memorial of sorts to the children. Maybe Diane had intended to kill them a week earlier. That's really strange. Is that really strange to put that date on there? Yeah. Upstairs was in the same unpacked stage, except for Diane's bedroom. Her waterbed was neatly made and covered with a quilt. A box of love letters and cards for Nick was on the

51:44 floor, along with an article on how to file for bankruptcy and several articles on surrogacy. Over two hundred pieces of evidence were collected by police during the search. Detectives found the pistol where Diane had told them it would be in her clock it had not been recently used. Diane remained in the hospital while her home was being searched. An armed police officer guarded her room and the rooms of her children in case the gunman returned. She asked the police to bring her back her diary. The detective found the diary, made a copy of it, and delivered it to her in the hospital. The diary was mostly written in the form of letters to Nick. Investigators knew they needed to interview him as soon as possible. Despite the protection of the armed guard outside her door, Diane didn't sleep a wink. At seven am, she called her friend Karen at the Chandler Arizona post office. Nick stood nearby. He had been refusing Diane's calls for weeks because their entanglement had been so messy.

52:45 He had been intoxicated for months by her, but he'd sobered up and didn't want anything to do with her now. He wanted to make his marriage work. Against his better judgment, He talked to Diane briefly that day, and she quickly told him about the attack. Ruskally ended the call, but not before Diane told him she loved him. He muttered, I don't know what to believe as he walked away. Diane's car was processed. Gunpowder residue was found in three quarters of the car, but not on the driver's side. The red interior of the car made it hard to differentiate between the blood stains and the fabric. There was a large pool of blood on the passenger side carpet where Cheryl was found, and one unspent twenty two bullet casing blood and vomit were found in the back seat, along with three spent twenty two shells.

53:35 The blood spray spatter an angle of the children's wounds were consistent with someone leaning in the driver's side window and shooting into the car. The exterior of the passenger side door had blood on it, as if someone had been shot outside of the car. Who had been outside of the car though, investigators thought that Cheryl may have been shot when she opened the door and tried to escape. But I thought maybe it was possible that Diane had shot herself and that that's what I was too. Yeah. In the trunk, an old rusted thirty eight was found and it hadn't been shot. Recently, tips came into the police of other sightings of bushy haired men. They were followed up on, but nothing viable. Who else could have shot Diana and her kids?

54:17 The mysterious nick his wife? What do you think? Well? Were they? They weren't in Oregon, though, were they? No? So probably not, and probably not just some strange guy waving the car down. That's pretty unlikely as well. Cheryl's autopsy revealed that she had been shot twice. The first shot had been close up and entered through Cheryl's left shoulder blade and went through her rib cage, left lung, aorta, and trachia. The second bullet was also close close up, over her right shoulder blade. The bullet had gone through a rib, right lung, aorta, and trachea. The bullet remained trapped beneath the skin of Cheryl's left shoulder. Either shot would have been enough to kill her. She bled to death. So these poor little bodies. Are you ravaged by these close up shots? Yeah, that's so horrible, so sad, a doctor said of Diane's injuries. Quote.

55:10 A single bullet entered the left forearm on the dorsal side or the thumb side. It split into and it shattered the radius and then exited, leaving two smaller wounds. Before Judy the receptionist, had cleaned Diane's arm, there had been evidence of stippling on her wounds too, so it must have been a close up shot exactly. I think we're gonna end there. No, you're gonna keep me in suspense. I'm going to keep you in suspense. I'm sorry. It's a long one. There's a lot here. Yeah, we could do easily do six parts on this case. There's a lot of information, there's a lot of audio and video. I guess that the video really doesn't help us on the podcast. So who do you think shot Diane and her children? Diane, you're pretty sound, you sound very certain.

56:00 I don't have any other suspects at this point, but maybe I'll learn of another suspect. But right now it seems like all signs are pointing to Diane. Same. We'll be back after a break. So OJ died yesterday, Yes, he did. Were you sat? No? I wasn't sad. Good riddance, I said, absolutely. The good thing about OJ dying is like no one has to feel bad about making a joke because he's a pretty hated man. Yeah, pretty much. Do you remember where you were when the Verdic came, Oh, yeah, I mean it is. It is funny. I like, you remember, you have these moments that you remember exactly where you were. And I was at work. You called me.

56:47 Yeah, I just remember everybody at work, like there was a TV up in the corner, everybody was watching and it was Yeah, it was crazy. I didn't live in Michigan at the time, and I was at work and you called me, and I actually vividly remember it. Oh yeah, and we chatted for a minute. And do you remember where you were during the Bronco chase. I don't remember as much. I don't know if I even watched it or I just probably saw it later. I yeah, I don't remember that. I remember the Bronco Chase, but I don't remember where I was. I was shocked at the jury. I don't remember this. But the jury only deliberate for three hours before finding him not guilty. That's bananas, because I think we must have thought during the time, like, oh, they're definitely going to come. I mean, yeah, for sure.

57:36 But yeah, it was a it was. It was a mess of a trial. I had to google yesterday whether Ron Goldman was still alive or not, because I was hoping that he outlived OJ so he could have some sense of justice. Right, he is still alive, he's in his eighties, so hopefully he'll be able to pee on OJ's grave. Yeah, hope. So that was a pivotal time in true crime. That was, you know, the first big case. I think that everyone was glued to. The twenty four hour news cycle came into existence, and yeah, I think we were all obsessed. Actually, one of my biggest memories of that was, do you remember the guy called into CNN and he was fake, No, I'm gonna have to find the clip and put it in here. But this guy called into CNN and he was telling them he could see OJ, like I think it was during the Bronco chase, and they're talking to this guy live on the air, and it became apparent after a few minutes this guy was just like making stuff up. Oh really, like what kind of I'm gonna have to find the clip. I'll find it, I'll put it in here and I'll play it for you. Just gonna ask everybody to be quiet for a moment. We have on the phone with us as well, Robert Higgins, who lives in the neighborhood and is on the ground and can see inside the band. Mister Higgins, Oh yeah, how are you just about as tense as you are? So well? Can you see what I'm looking at right now? I'm looking at the van and I see OJ kind of slouching down, looking very very upset. Now look at here, he

59:07 look very upset. I don't know what he gonna be doing. Can you can you can you see him doing anything specific? Is he merely sitting there? He is just uh sitting around, you know, or just uh looking like he'd be very nervous. Can you hear anything, mister Higgins. It's just too much commotion. I'd be in the back of a news van, so I can't really hear that good. But I can see it all. And I see O J. I see OJ man and he looks scared, and I would be scared cause there's cops. Old deepness, Thank you, mister Higgins, and Baba ba e to y'all. The driveway of O.

59:49 J. Simpson's home in Brentwood clearly an effort being made to have him come out of the vehicle. In the doorway of the house. His friend Al Cowling Peter by the way, Just for the record, this is Al Michaels. So that was a totally farcical call. Lest anybody think that that was somebody who was truly across the street, that was not. He said something in code at the end that's indicative of the mentioning of the name of a certain radio talk show host. Okay, thanks, hell so he was not there. All right, we have them on every coast, thank you very much. Not the first time nor the last time we'll have been had.

1:00:29 But well, someone posted a meme. There's a lot of memes already. But like if OJ's funeral procession isn't like a white bronco with all the police following behind, Yeah, for sure. I hope the Goldman's and Nicole Brown Simpson's family finally have just a little bit of peace and closure. I know there are a lot of people out there that deserve to be in prison, but not many as much as OJ. Yeah, and it seems like his victims have been forgotten in a lot of this because you know, all the focus has been on OJ. So, yeah, that happened so often. Even in the case that I'm talking about today, Diane downs like poor little chryl I feel like she's been lost in this a little bit. Yeah, Okay, it's Friday night, dinner time, your night to pick. What do we have for dinner? I know we've been on this rotation lately, and yeah, we take turns. I don't cook on a Friday. At first, I thought this is a really good thing because it'll be like, oh, yeah, it's just your night to pick and you decide. But now it feels like a lot of pressure, like, oh, man, I don't know what to pick. I don't I don't know. Yeah, I'm thinking you did go get us nice sandwiches today for a lunch. I was out anyway, So yeah, you went to the dentist. I did.

1:01:43 I'm thinking from the dentist, by the way you talk about Yeah, I'm thinking Panda Express for dinner. It's orange chicken. Really Yeah that surprises me. That's just because it's nearby, right, Yeah, Yeah, we've talked about this before, but we're like an hour and a half off outside. We're not that far out. But some days, yeah, it takes a while to get fil Well, go make how sweet eats? Uh wait? Limit, I want to get the name right, salted chewy, gooey, chocolate chip skillet cookie and put some ice cream on top. I promise you won't regret it. It's delicious. I also promise that you won't regret it. Please rate, review, follow and subscribe, find us on social media, or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. And please consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash Love Mary Kill one tier five dollars a month early ad free access and a monthly bonus episode, and you will be posting parts one and two of this case. Wow. Correct.

1:02:46 I will thank you so much to everyone who has left of a five star review. Leaving a five star review for us or any other podcast really is the nicest best thing you can do to support us or anyone else that you listen to and appreciate. Yeah, it is much appreciated. Until next time, don't kill your husband. Don't kill your wife.