Diane Downs - Part 1

WEBVTT

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Hi, I'm Tina and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned

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in over twenty years of marriage,
it's that some days you'll feel like killing

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your wife, and some days you'll
feel like killing your husband. Welcome to

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love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina. How are you?

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I'm great? How are you?
I'm fabulous. I'm excited to record.

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It's been a minute. It's been
a long time, a lot of minutes.

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Yeah, I'm sure you have a
snack for me. But before we

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get to that, we wanted to
just take a minute to talk about something.

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We're changing up a little bit in
the podcast. So normally we talk

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for a few minutes before we have
a snack and then we get into the

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case. I know there are some
people out there who really just want to

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hear the case. They don't really
want to hear us chit chat about our

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day or whatever. So we're going
to try to keep the upfront stuff shorter.

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We're still gonna have our snack,
but then we're going to go right

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into the case and then we'll do
some chit chatting at the end. We'll

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have some fun at the end,
and if you want to stick around for

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that, great and if not,
you don't have to. Okay, sounds

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good. A couple of months ago, Jessica from how Sweet Eats gave us

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a shout out on her recipe blog, which was very cool. It made

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my day because I have followed Jessica
for years. Again. Her website is

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howsweeteats dot com and she has so
many great recipes that she creates and they

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all have like a cool twist to
them. Some of them are really healthy

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and some of them are not.
But anyway, thank you, Jessica.

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I wanted to make one of your
recipes to give to Rich today and he's

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going to be so excited. I
am excited. I made Jessica salted Chewy

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gooey chocolate chip skillet cookie Salted chewy
gooey skillet. Okay, yeah, I

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did not bring the whole skillet,
but I brought you just a little piece,

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Okay, all right, and I
even put a little bit of ice

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cream top of it. Wow.
Nice. How excited are you? I'm

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like, on a scale one to
ten, like thirty five. I it

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was a really cool recipe because you
made the cookie in the skillet, you

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didn't need a separate bowl. You
kind of melted the butter first, and

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you know I love a brown butter
cookie. Why don't you try it.

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We'll take a break and you can
try it. Okay, What did you

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think of the salted, chewy,
gooey chocolate chip skillet cookie? That was

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amazing, really good? Ten out
of ten delicious. Yes, he didn't

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want to share. They had one
piece. But find Jessica on Instagram or

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other social media or just on the
Internet. She's amazing. And Jessica lived

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in Pittsburgh with her husband and three
kids, and they love to take vacations

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in Michigan, just like we do. Oh how cool. Before I dive

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into today's case, I wanted to
talk for writer and rule for a minute.

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Anne Rull was born in Lowell,
Michigan, in nineteen thirty one,

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and died in twenty fifteen at the
age of eighty three near Seattle, Washington.

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Anne was a pioneer in the true
crime community and no one has done

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it better. We might not be
here if it wasn't for her work.

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She wrote thirty five New York Times
best selling novels and countless articles in her

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forty five years as a writer.
Thirty five novels, Wow More than twenty

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million copies of her books have been
sold. Many of her books have been

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made into movies. Anne was a
police officer with the Seattle Police Department,

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following in the footsteps of her grandfather
and uncle, who were both sheriffs in

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Michigan. She went on to write
for a true detective magazine under the pen

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name Andy Stack, as she did
with her first three novels. She is

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best known for the book The Stranger
Beside Me about Ted Bundy, whom she

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personally knew. We've been talking.
I bought that book. I haven't read

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yet, even talking about if we
want to do the Ted Bundy case or

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not. Anne was also a fierce
victim advocate. Her daughter, Leslie Rule,

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followed in her footsteps and became a
writer too. She wrote one true

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crime book, and she's written several
paranormal books as well. Now you read

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Leslie's true crime book, right,
Yeah, it was the one about the

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Liz Gallier Carrie Farvar case, which
is one of the craziest cases and really

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well written book, so Leslie said. She started writing paranormal books because they

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lived in a haunted house growing up. Oh In nineteen eighty seven, Anne

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wrote the book Small Sacrifices for the
case I'm about to present to you about

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Diane Downes, and dedicated the book
to all three of the downs children.

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I think Anne had a big heart. Anne had five children, and sadly,

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as her health declined, she was
a victim of elder abuse by two

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of her sons who stole money from
her. They were among four of Anne's

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children who were on her payroll,
earning twenty five thousand dollars a month or

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three hundred thous thousand dollars a year
for various responsibilities. One of anne son's

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admitted to having a gambling addiction and
drug problem. I hate when people are

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so greedy. I know that's really
sad too. It's a lot of money

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to live on. You didn't need
to steal from your unless otherwise noted.

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The quotes from today's episode come from
Ann's book Small Sacrifices, which I highly

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recommend. Today's episode contains adult themes
and violence against women and children. Please

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listen with care. On the night
of May nineteenth, nineteen eighty three,

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the Mackenzie William Atte Hospital in Springfield, Oregon was winding down for the night.

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Springfield is sister city to Eugene,
and according to Anne Rule, Springfield

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is the younger, less polished sister
to Eugene. It had been a slow

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night at the hospital, the usual
stitches and broken bones, but nothing out

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of the ordinary. Er receptionist Judy
Patterson, a single mom who worked two

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jobs, exited the hospital on the
warm spring night. Her coworkers told her

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she could leave early. She was
looking forward to getting to bed before midnight.

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The staff working the four pm to
midnight shift that night where r.

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N. Rosie Martin, pregnant LPN
Shelby day night receptionist Judy Patterson, and

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doctor John Mackie, the physician in
charge. As Judy walked out the door,

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a young woman with blonde hair driving
a red Nissan Pulsar pulled under the

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shelter of the emergency room entrance and
began honking her horn feverishly. Do you

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know what a Nissan Pulsar looks like? No? I was just thinking,

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I don't know if I've even heard
of that. It's a small two door

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car. It doesn't remember what car
like. Most cars today I think have

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four doors. But it was you
know how you had to, yeah,

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pull the seat up to if you
want to get in the back pain exactly,

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yeah, very small in the back, not really a family car.

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The woman yelled, somebody just shot
my kids. Judy rushed back inside and

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called nursing and doctors to hurry outside
to help. A call was made to

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nine one one at ten forty p
m. Quote, employee of Mackenzie Williammette

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Hospital advises of gunshot victims at the
location. Officers dispatched arrived at ten forty

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eight p m end Quote. Rose
reached the car first. She reached into

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the back seat and grabbed a girl
with long blonde hair. Christie was her

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name. Rose carried Christie into the
hospital. Doctor John Mackie, the physician

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in charge, rushed out to assess
the situation. He found a young boy,

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a toddler no more than three,
in the back seat. Danny was

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his name, they'd learned later.
He gently picked up Danny from the floor

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of the small car and carried him
inside. He noticed another child crumpled on

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the floor of the back seat.
LPN Shelby Day, in her second trimester

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of pregnancy, attended to the third
child, Cheryl. They heard the blonde

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woman call her. Cheryl wasn't moving
in the slightest. Shelby un wedged her

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small body from under the passenger seat
in the front of the small car.

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Judy paged thoracic surgeon, doctor Stephen
Woolheit. He was just pulling into his

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driveway after a long day when he
received the news that three children had been

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shot and needed his help. He
made the return trip to the hospital,

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normally a twenty minute drive in eight
minutes over the hospital's PA system. Judy

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declared a Code four, which summoned
all available personnel to the er. Doctors

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and nurses rushed to the er to
assist with the children. The mother stood

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stone faced and observed the chaos around
her three children. Judy quietly ushered her

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to the waiting area. Judy thought
she must be in shock. As nurse

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Shelby's suctioned the coagulated blood from Cheryl's
throat, she thought it was odd that

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clots had formed. It usually took
some time for clots to form. Cheryl's

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throat was thick with coagulated blood.
She was connected to a heart monitor,

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but there was no activity. Cheryl
had two bullet wounds on her back,

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one over each shoulder. Doctor Mackie
declared her dead After a few minutes,

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Cheryl was beyond saving. Her wounds
were too serious. Her brother and sister

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were fighting for their lives a few
feet away. It didn't look good for

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them either. Christie was shot twice
in the chest. One bullet remained in

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her small body. A bullet had
also greazed her left hand, likely a

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defense wound. She had no detectable
blood pressure, her breath was jagged and

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irregular, and her pupils were barely
reactive. She was intubated, but a

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hemorrhage in her lung left little room
for air, and her right lung was

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near collapse. The doctors were undeteared
by her faltering vital signs and continued to

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work on her. She was given
a transfusion of OH negative blood, prompting

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her vital signs to return. Her
color improved quickly. Once she was stable

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enough, she was brought to surgery. Danny appeared to have suffered from a

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close range shot at the base of
his spine between thoracic vertebrae T six and

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T seven, which made paralysis a
possibility. Stipling surrounded the wound. Stippling

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was actually present in all of the
children's wounds, Danny was conscious but breathing

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erratically, frequently whimpering when he could
draw enough breath to make a sound.

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Doctors inserted a chest's tube and his
breathing rapidly improved, which was good news,

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of course, but it increased the
sound and intensity of his guttural wailing.

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Meanwhile, doctor Wilhight was able to
repair the damage to Christie's lungs and

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stop the bleeding and surgery. The
operation was a success, but she awoke

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in a panic and tried to pull
the tubes out of her chest. The

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task of interviewing the mother fell on
to receptionist Judy. The name of the

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mother of the three children was Elizabeth
Diane Downs. She went by Diane.

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She was twenty seven years old.
The children where Christy Anne Ate Chryl Lynde

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seven now deceased, and Stephen,
known as Danny three. Judy hadn't told

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Diane yet that Christie was dead.
Diane was tall, blonde and thin,

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with a prominent jawline and large,
cold eyes. The whites of her eyes

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were somewhat larger than her cubs.
She was very stoic, if emotionless.

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She wore jeans and a plaid button
up shirt over a T shirt that said

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Nantucket. Judy noticed a small spot
of blood on the plaid shirt and a

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beach towel covering Diane's arm from wrist
to elbow. Diane said she had been

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shot too. Judy unwrapped the towel
and found three painful, still bleeding wounds.

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The towel had been carefully wrapped around
Diane's arm, as if great care

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was taken to dress the wound.
None of the children's wounds had been attended

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to. Judy treated Diane's wounds to
the best of her ability. The rest

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of the medical staff was busy attending
to the children. She applied antiseptic and

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wrapped Diane's arm in a bandage.
Diane told Judy a man with a gun

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was after her and her children.
Judy called the police and asked them to

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come to the hospital to speak with
Diane and to protect the er from the

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potential attacker. Diane had trouble remembering
where the shooting had taken place, but

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she said she and her kids were
driving home from visiting a friend when she

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saw a man standing in the middle
of the road. Diane stopped the car

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and got out to see if he
needed help. Okay, do you see

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a problem there. Yeah, So
she's on a dark highway, nine thirty

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at night with her three kids in
the car. How many women would stop

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the car to see if a man
needed help? Yeah, probably not many.

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She described the man as quote he
was white, in his late twenties,

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about five feet nine inches, one
hundred and fifty to one hundred and

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seventy pounds. He had dark hair, a shag wavy cut, and a

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stubble of a beard, maybe one
or two days growth. Levi's, a

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Levi jacket, a dirty maybe off
color light t shirt end quote. The

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man demanded Diane give him the keys
to the car. When she refused,

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the man pushed her out of the
way, approached the red car, reached

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in, shot the three children,
and then shot Diane in her left arm.

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Do you think that's a little suspicious
that she was shot in her left

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arm? She was right handed.
Yeah, it seems a little slightly strange.

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Christy later recalled that Duran Duran's hungry
like the wolf played during the incident.

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Diane pretended to throw the car keys
to distract the man. She jumped

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in the car and headed to the
nearest hospital. Diane claimed that she drove

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like a lunatic. While they waited
for the police to arrive, Diane called

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her parents, Wes and Willadeine Frederickson, who lived only about two miles away

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from the hospital. They raced there
and they rushed to get to the hospital

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west for good its dentures. He
dropped Willodeine off and then returned home to

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get them. At ten forty eight
pm, eight minutes after Judy had hung

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up with the dispatcher, the police
arrived. During questioning, Diane's memory started

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drifting back to her. She recalled
a yellow car on the side of the

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road. She said it must have
been the attacker's car. Police noted Diane's

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intelligence and articulate speech. She recalled
things in great detail. She told the

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detectives quote, there are eight levels
of intelligence, and I'm the seventh level.

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So googled that. I googled it. I could not find anything confirming

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that that's actually there's actually eight levels
of intelligc if there are. It's just

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such a weird thing to say to
detectives when you're you know people that are

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like really intelligent and then constantly tell
you that they were, like I know

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this one woman that tells me every
time I see it, cat comes up

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in conversation. Well, when I
was in school, I was in the

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gifted program. Just cracks me up, Diane said. The incident with a

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gunman happened on Old Mohawk Road,
a rural road without much traffic. Police,

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along with Diane and her father,
drove the road and tried to find

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the exact spot where the shooting had
happened. Roadblocks were erected and search teams

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with scent dogs were sent out in
an attempt to find the gunman. Divers

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would search the water for the gun
at daylight. After Diane and her father

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returned from Old Mohawk Road, Diane
was told that one of her daughters had

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not survived, but no one was
sure which child it was. Wes identified

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the little girl as seven year old
Cheryl. Either Diane nor West display made

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00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:03.200
much emotion. Okay, so Diane, you know her kids, her three

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00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:07.200
babies are in the emergency room,
and then the police asked her to go,

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you know, tell them where the
incident happened. There's no way that

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we would leave our babies. Yeah. A doctor fixed up Diane's wounds.

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00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:20.519
He noticed a tattoo on her left
shoulder, a large rose with the name

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Nick printed beside it. Who was
Nick, the doctor wondered. Diane implored

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00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:28.919
the doctor not to mention the tattoo
to her father. Diane was given a

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00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:33.879
gunshot residue test and a blood test. She tested negative for gunshot residue and

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drugs and alcohol. Dan permitted her
apartment to be searched, but before police

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00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:43.360
left to search her home, she
told them I owned two guns, a

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00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:48.279
twenty two and a rifle. She
said she needed the weapons for protection.

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00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:52.559
Her ex husband, step and Duayne
Downs twenty eight, was a violent man

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00:15:52.600 --> 00:15:58.000
with the history of beating her.
Danne also mentioned that there was a thirty

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eight that she kept in the trunk. A lot of people point to the

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00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:06.200
negative gunshot residue test as oh,
Diane could not have shot her children.

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00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:11.320
How easily do you think it is
to remove gunshot residue from your hands after

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00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:14.159
you've shot a gun. Well,
in my extensive research that I've done on

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00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:17.559
this topic, you can't. You
definitely can wash it off. I'm sure

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00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:21.200
it's not one hundred percent guaranteed that
if you wash your hands or you know,

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00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:23.600
wipe it on your clothing or whatever
afterwards that it's going to come off,

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00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:27.279
But I think it can. So
I think the absence of gunshot residue

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00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:33.080
is not proof that you did not
fire a gun, and she could have

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00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:37.879
been wearing gloves. True, there
are conflicting reports as to whether Diane washed

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00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:40.879
her hands when she got to the
hospital or not. Okay, so we're

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00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:45.279
not sure if she did or not. Yeah. Diane Elizabeth Fredrickson Downs was

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born on August seventh, nineteen fifty
five, to Wes and will Adein Frederckson

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00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:53.039
and Phoenix, Arizona. I love
the name will Adeine. Is that I

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00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:56.720
say? Her mother was just seventeen
and her father twenty five. They were

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00:16:56.799 --> 00:17:00.799
members of the Southern Baptist Church.
They attended church three times a week.

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00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:06.680
Will Adean became a housewife and stay
at home mom. She was and remained

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00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:11.039
submissive to her husband throughout her marriage. Wes always came before her or the

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children. Will Adean had five children
in eight years. Diane, John,

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00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:19.960
Kathy, James, and Paul.
Wes worked as the postmaster in the small

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town where they lived. Diane craved
more attention from her harried mother than she

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00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:30.559
was able to give. Wes was
militant and controlling with the children. He

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00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:34.119
made a lot of rules. When
Diane didn't have homework, her father made

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00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:37.759
her read the dictionary. I believe
my mom made me read the dictionary too.

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00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:41.799
Really, I used to read the
dictionary for fun. You have a

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00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:45.400
dictionary with my name? Mom?
Oh my god, could you sound?

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00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:51.440
I tell you what my IQ is. By the way, why do you

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00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:53.599
have an I'm going to give you
this one. Why do you have a

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00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:57.400
dictionary with your name out? It
rich? Because I won the spelling spelling

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00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:02.400
bee in sixth grade and they gave
me a dictionary with my name names spelled

248
00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:04.920
wrong, and so I went to
my principal. They went back and they

249
00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:07.599
got me another one. So I
had two, one with my names spelled

250
00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:10.920
wrong and one with it spelled right. But I don't know what happened had

251
00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:14.039
the other one. So the one
we have has your name spelled right.

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00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:15.400
I think. So. Yeah.
For some reason, we had, like

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00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:19.000
you know that the Webster's dictionary that
used to have in your school library.

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00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:23.000
It was like two million pages.
We had one of those and it was

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00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:27.279
really fun to page through. I'm
not going to tell you. Someday,

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00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:30.519
we'll have to tell you the story
about spelling Bee and our son, and

257
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:37.400
how I've never been angrier and in
my life he was robbed. He was.

258
00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:41.319
Diane was exceptionally bright, but had
trouble making friends in school. She

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00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:45.039
became a loner. She said quote. When I was a child, I

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00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:48.519
didn't feel like a total misfit.
I thought everyone lived the same way I

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00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:52.720
did. I knew there were things
I didn't like, but I thought it

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00:18:52.759 --> 00:18:56.319
was normal. I did not rebel
for a very long time. I was

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00:18:56.319 --> 00:18:59.440
an introvert, and I did a
lot of listening and watching of people.

264
00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:03.480
As I grew, I began to
make a distinction between what I liked about

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life and what I didn't like.
And even though I never expressed myself,

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either because I wasn't allowed to or
because I didn't have the confidence, I

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00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:15.480
still adopted ideas that I would apply
to my adult life. End quote.

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Diane yearned to be a doctor,
get rich, and live in a mansion.

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00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:22.319
I think every kid has that dream. Well, I guess we all

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00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:25.319
read out the doctor part, but
yeah, the rest of it for sure.

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00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:29.640
Diane's teen years were hard. She
was not allowed to dress or style

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00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:33.920
her hair like other girls. Her
social life was non existent and she felt

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00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:37.279
invisible. When Diane was twelve,
will Adeine got a job working as a

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00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:41.440
postal clerk. On the late shift
after the other children went to bed,

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00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:47.359
Wes would come into Diane's room and
molest her. She couldn't exactly recall if

276
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:52.319
the abuse involved intercourse, but thought
she may have suppressed the memory. Diane

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00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:55.920
in fact blocked a lot of her
childhood out. She said that she would

278
00:19:56.000 --> 00:20:00.839
often zone out when she was in
uncomfortable situations. Some times, Wes took

279
00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:03.839
Diane for rides in the car and
molested her there. On one of these

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00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:08.400
rides, a police officer pulled Wes
over. Diane's shirt was unbuttoned and her

281
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:12.480
bra was undone. The officer asked
her if she was okay, and Diane

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00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:15.319
came up with an excuse on the
fly. She said she'd been to a

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00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:19.279
doctor and she'd gotten a shot and
she that's why her shirt was undone.

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00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:23.559
The officer told Wes to get out
of the car and had a stern talking

285
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to with him. Diane doesn't know
what the officer said to her father,

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00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:33.039
but the sexual abuse stopped. Diane
thinks that the abuse lasted for about a

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00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:37.480
year. When she was fourteen,
her parents enrolled her in charm school to

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00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:41.319
help boost her confidence. It helped
a little. Diane gradually felt more comfortable

289
00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:45.359
in her skin and became more talkative. Some boys from her church started to

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00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:48.880
notice her. When she was fifteen, a junior in high school, she

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00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:53.480
fell for the boy next door,
Steve Downs. She said quote, he

292
00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:56.839
came to see me, he came
to support me. He beat people up

293
00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:02.119
over me. He made me feel
important. He had long hair and never

294
00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:06.759
wore a shirt. He was rebellious. He was everything my parents didn't like,

295
00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:12.920
so I chose Steve. Wes hated
Steve. Diane developed a troubling habit.

296
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:18.440
In retaliation against her father's attempts to
control her. She would rake her

297
00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:22.440
fingernails across her face, which left
bloody trails behind. When she was angry

298
00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:27.759
or frustrated. West would stare open
mouthed as she mutilated her face. That's

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00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:32.960
disturbing, I know. In June
nineteen seventy two, Steve enlisted in the

300
00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:37.839
Navy. Dianne graduated from high school
a semester early and enrolled in Pacific Coast

301
00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:42.799
Baptist Bible College in Long Beach,
California, with her father's blessing. She

302
00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:48.680
studied to be a Christian missionary.
Diane lasted for about a year before being

303
00:21:48.759 --> 00:21:52.960
expelled for promiscuity. The rumor on
campus was that she'd had sex with another

304
00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:57.440
student on the altar of the church. That's a no no. Steve returned

305
00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:02.000
from his tour. He and I
Anne spent as much time together as they

306
00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:06.200
could, to the ire of her
father. One night, after Diane didn't

307
00:22:06.200 --> 00:22:10.319
come home, Wess appeared with a
shotgun and told Steve to either marry Diane

308
00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:15.119
or leave her alone. They married
a week later on November thirteenth, nineteen

309
00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:18.759
seventy three. True story, My
dad went after one of my sister's boyfriends

310
00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:25.359
with a shotgun. Are you serious? Boy? Diane was leaving one controlling

311
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:29.599
man for another. Diane was lonely, and she got a puppy. Two

312
00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:33.440
weeks after their wedding, Steve had
a date with another woman. He claimed

313
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:37.079
he'd made the date before their wedding
and it would be wrong to cancer rude,

314
00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:44.200
right, honey, I know we're
married, but I made this date

315
00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:48.240
before we were married, and you
got to keep the date. You don't

316
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:52.799
want to be rude, right.
Diane ironed his white pants for the date

317
00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:57.920
that's very understanding of her. Steve
didn't return home until three am. Diane

318
00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:03.400
realized that marrying Steve was a mistake. He didn't love her with the all

319
00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:07.720
consuming love that she yearned for.
Steve wanted to wait a few years to

320
00:23:07.720 --> 00:23:11.920
have a baby. They were both
just eighteen, but unbeknownst to Steve,

321
00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:15.440
Diane threw away her birth control.
She was pregnant within a month. Diane

322
00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:19.440
was very fertile, so she realized
that marrying Steve was a mistake, but

323
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:25.559
she still threw away her birth control. Diane made a lot of bad decisions.

324
00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:29.519
Steve was a good looking, rugged
man. He caught the eye of

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00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:33.599
a modeling scout. He was hired
by Jillette to do a commercial for their

326
00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:37.759
razors. Steve hung his entire future
on the opportunity, but unfortunately, while

327
00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:41.960
working on a car, there was
an explosion that caused severe burns to his

328
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:48.519
face. His modeling career was over
before it started. After Christy was born

329
00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:52.599
in October nineteen seventy four, Diane's
whole world shifted. She said, quote,

330
00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:56.559
my goal had been reached. I
finally found true love and peace with

331
00:23:56.599 --> 00:24:00.960
another human being, my daughter.
While Christie grew inside of me. I

332
00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:04.480
knew for the first time in my
life what love was. That was the

333
00:24:04.519 --> 00:24:08.640
first time in my life that I
was needed, really needed. I finally

334
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:12.200
had a reason to exist, and
I was happy, truly happy. The

335
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:17.599
happiness I felt when my child moved
inside of me was intoxicating. It never

336
00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:21.920
stopped, and after my child was
born, I was even happier because now

337
00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:26.119
I wasn't the only one in love. Christie too, loved me. When

338
00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:27.920
I would peer into her crib,
she would reach for me and grin.

339
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:32.400
She was so excited to see me, she would kick her little feet so

340
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:37.440
hard it would shake the whole crib. I loved her. Steve took a

341
00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:41.319
back seat to Christie, but he
didn't mind. The baby kept Diane busy,

342
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:45.319
and she didn't mind as much when
he slipped out at night. Diane

343
00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:48.720
worked part time at a bank,
barely making enough to pay the babysitter.

344
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:52.720
She was frustrated that there wasn't enough
time or money for her to go to

345
00:24:52.759 --> 00:24:56.799
school. She knew her marriage to
Steve was not going to last, and

346
00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:00.200
she didn't want to be a single
mother without a career to provide for her

347
00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:04.440
and Christy. In a spontaneous decision. When Christy was about six months old,

348
00:25:04.519 --> 00:25:08.960
Diane joined the Air Force. She
lasted three weeks before she begged Steve

349
00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:12.039
to help her get out. Isn't
it crazy that she was just like,

350
00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:15.720
I'm going to join the Air Force? That is crazy? And can you

351
00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:19.400
just get out of the Air Force? You just say sorry, I made

352
00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:22.079
a mistake. I don't want to
do this anymore. Yeah, they're not

353
00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:25.559
going to be happy about it,
but they're not going to make you stay.

354
00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:30.559
Diane soon became pregnant with her second
baby. Cheryl, was born on

355
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:34.279
January tenth, nineteen seventy six.
The last thing Diane and Steve needed in

356
00:25:34.319 --> 00:25:40.720
their tenuous marriage was a calaguy baby. Cheryl cried day and night. Steve

357
00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:44.359
was sullen. He hadn't wanted another
child, but if he had to have

358
00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:48.880
another child, he'd wanted a son. At twenty one, Steve got a

359
00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:52.279
vasectomy. He was sure he didn't
want more children and knew they couldn't afford

360
00:25:52.279 --> 00:25:56.440
another mouth to feed. Steve failed
to show up for the important follow up

361
00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:02.599
appointment, and Diane soon became pregnant
again. Like we said, she was

362
00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:07.359
very fertile. I guess so Diane
said, quote, I was twenty years

363
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:10.960
old. I had two kids.
My parents were pressuring me to potty train

364
00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:15.640
Christie. Cheryl was callagy. My
husband was a bastard. I couldn't take

365
00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:19.880
any more pressure. I decided to
have an abortion end quote, a decision

366
00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:25.279
that haunted her for years to come. She named the aborted baby Carrie and

367
00:26:25.400 --> 00:26:29.720
never forgot about her. Steve returned
to the doctor for a second of a

368
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:33.680
sectomy. This time he went to
the follow up appointment. On Halloween nineteen

369
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:37.920
seventy six, Diane left Steve.
She took the baby girls and went to

370
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:41.680
Texas to stay with her uncle.
It took Steve a couple of weeks to

371
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:47.759
track her down. Each party has
a different version of events. Diane said

372
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:51.720
Steve begged her to come home.
Steve said Diane came home on her own.

373
00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:55.559
Which one do you think is true? I'm not sure, but their

374
00:26:55.559 --> 00:27:02.640
marriage was very unstable and Diane left
often. Okay. A year later,

375
00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:07.519
Diane left again and moved in with
her sister in Flagstaff. She worked as

376
00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:11.599
a cement truck driver until she was
raped by her boss. She went home

377
00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:15.200
to Steve again. Steve never had
a steady job. He went from one

378
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:19.119
job to the next. In nineteen
seventy eight, both Steve and Diane were

379
00:27:19.160 --> 00:27:25.119
working at the Palm Harbor Mobile home
Company. Diane asked him to reverse his

380
00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:29.799
vasectomy. She loved being pregnant.
It filled a void inside of her.

381
00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:34.240
Diane wanted to replace Carrie. She
thought maybe she could become pregnant again with

382
00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:40.640
her spirit. Steve was adamant that
he didn't want another child. She took

383
00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:44.839
a lover at her job. Diane
twenty three, became pregnant by a nineteen

384
00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:48.160
year old named Russ Phillips. Russ
wanted to get married, but Diane had

385
00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:52.599
no interest. Diane quit her job
at the mobile home company and began working

386
00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:59.640
as a postal carrier at the Chandler
Post Office. Stephen Daniel Downs was born

387
00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:03.440
on Saturday, December twenty ninth,
nineteen seventy nine. Diane returned to work

388
00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:08.640
the following Monday Wow. Steve knew
the baby wasn't his. He told Diane

389
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:11.759
she would have to leave, but, to both Diane and his surprise,

390
00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:17.680
once Danny was born, he fell
in love with him. Diane became depressed

391
00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:22.279
and moody. She yelled at the
children and sometimes hit them. The house

392
00:28:22.359 --> 00:28:26.559
was chaotic and loud. Something was
always broken, and there was never enough

393
00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:30.400
money. Diane and Steve fought constantly, and their fights often became physical.

394
00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:34.920
Diane and Steve weren't the best parents. There was never enough food in the

395
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:40.880
house for three growing children. Neighbors
saw them playing outside barefoot and coatless in

396
00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:45.200
the winter. Sometimes they left the
children home alone, leaving six year old

397
00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:48.759
Christy in charge when they went out
at night. It sounds like a really

398
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:52.000
bad situation. They were so young
to have three kids, barely in their

399
00:28:52.039 --> 00:29:04.079
twenties. Yeah, we'll be back
after a break. In April nineteen eighty,

400
00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:07.960
Diane was watching the Phil Donahue show. Do you remember Donahue? Of

401
00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:12.319
course, I love Donahue. The
topic of the show was surrogacy, which

402
00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:17.799
in nineteen eighty was a medical breakthrough. Diane decided to apply to become a

403
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:22.920
surrogate. Her application was less than
honest, underestimating her drug and alcohol use,

404
00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:26.240
the ease of her previous pregnancies,
and the state of her marriage.

405
00:29:26.359 --> 00:29:32.559
She also failed to disclose her previous
abortion. Diane was excited to collect the

406
00:29:32.599 --> 00:29:37.440
ten thousand dollars surrogacy fee. It
would give her the financial freedom to leave

407
00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:42.200
her dismal marriage to Steve. In
anticipation of the surrogacy windfall, Diane and

408
00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:47.799
Steve purchased a home in Chandler,
Arizona, for sixty thousand dollars. Diane

409
00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:52.480
and Steve were both subjected to psychological
evaluations for the surrogacy. Diane's report was

410
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:59.519
less than favorable, and excerpt reads
quote, there is considerable neurotic interplay both

411
00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:03.079
in this ma marriage and in this
woman's total adjustment to life. This would

412
00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:08.240
not necessarily incapacitate her as a surrogate
mother, but I would like to see

413
00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:15.039
a psychological report end quote. Diane
was given ten psychological inventories, among them

414
00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:22.920
an IQ test, the MMPI or
the Minnesota Multifacic Personality Inventory, and the

415
00:30:22.039 --> 00:30:29.119
rorshack ink blot test. That's very
thorough. I'll say the reports determined that

416
00:30:29.160 --> 00:30:33.599
Diane was of superior intelligence, but
the quote findings were consistent with, but

417
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:40.680
not absolutely diagnostic, of a major
psychopathology end quote. I'm not sure what

418
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:44.160
a major major psychopathology is, but
I'm guessing it's not a good thing.

419
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:49.680
The battery of tests collectively painted a
picture of Diane being a unique individual.

420
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:56.680
Outwardly confident but inwardly struggling with confidence
and self image. Her ego was non

421
00:30:56.680 --> 00:31:00.920
existent. One psychologist said, quote, a clear cut neurotic picture is not

422
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:07.759
present. Similar individuals display frequent self
deprecation and are seen as very unguarded and

423
00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:14.279
without normal social defenses. They do
not typically take advantage of normal social feedback.

424
00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:18.559
This individual has poor ability to express
anger and a modulated fashion, and

425
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:26.240
tends to have poor behavioral controls despite
a somewhat flamboyant facade, This woman tends

426
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:30.839
to be shy, timid, and
retiring. Psychologists weren't sure if she was

427
00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:34.640
able to mask her psychopathy due to
her intelligence, but they were unable to

428
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:38.960
diagnose her with the condition at that
time. They knew there were some underlying

429
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:45.000
psychological issues, but they couldn't put
a finger on it. In my unexpert

430
00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:51.279
opinion, I think Diane was still
very young, and some psychological personality disorders

431
00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:55.640
don't surface until you're a little older. But it's also possible because of her

432
00:31:55.640 --> 00:31:57.759
intelligence when she was taking the test, she could have been like, wait

433
00:31:57.799 --> 00:32:02.599
a minute, I've taken personality to
test before, and if a question like

434
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:08.720
is continuously repeated but rewarded slightly differently. You kind of can tell what they're

435
00:32:08.759 --> 00:32:10.920
getting at. Yeah, do you
know what I'm talking about? Not even

436
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:14.400
if they're repeated, but just any
question. You're kind of looking at it

437
00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:15.920
and you're like, you know,
if you feel like you want to be

438
00:32:16.039 --> 00:32:20.799
in some category or whatever, you
kind of know how you're supposed to answer,

439
00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:27.759
right, Yeah, have you tested
positive psychopathy? Nope? Same.

440
00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:32.119
Diane wanted to be a surrogate,
partially to be mgnanimous. She said,

441
00:32:32.119 --> 00:32:37.279
did I say that right? I'm
not as smart as you. I can't

442
00:32:37.319 --> 00:32:40.559
say these big words. She said. She wanted to help create a family.

443
00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:46.480
One doctor thought Diane had indicators of
histrionic personality disorder and feared that she

444
00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:51.759
would be unable to give up the
baby after it was born. However,

445
00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:55.839
she was deemed to be a worthy
candidate for surrogacy partially because of her age,

446
00:32:55.920 --> 00:33:00.480
exceptional health, and three perfectly healthy
children. So all that though those

447
00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:05.079
all of those battery of tests kind
of showed that there was something wrong,

448
00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:07.599
they couldn't put their finger on it. But they're like, yeah, she

449
00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:10.960
can be a certain It seems really
crazy to me that they First of all,

450
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:15.440
I wouldn't have guessed that they ran
that many tests on somebody to be

451
00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:17.000
a surrogate. A second of all, yeah, you would think if you're

452
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:21.240
going to run all those tests,
you might want to take it into account

453
00:33:21.319 --> 00:33:24.440
into the decision, oh for sure. And the parents, you know,

454
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:30.200
the potential parents. Something that I
didn't know. Maybe everyone else knows this,

455
00:33:30.279 --> 00:33:35.799
but in Diane's procedures, her egg
was actually used, so her psychology

456
00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:38.079
was very important. Yeah, for
sure. I think today in a lot

457
00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:44.559
of cases there's a difference between a
surrogate and a gestational carrier. A gestational

458
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:50.160
carrier has an embryo planet implanted inside
of them, right, But we still

459
00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:54.160
use the term surrogacy more than gestational
carrier. Okay. Finally, in nineteen

460
00:33:54.200 --> 00:33:59.559
eighty one, Diane and Steve decided
to divorce. Steve said he'd move out

461
00:33:59.559 --> 00:34:02.599
at the house for five thousand dollars. Diane borrowed the money from a man

462
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:06.960
she'd been having an affair with.
He and his two children moved in with

463
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:09.719
Diane, but it only lasted a
few months. He didn't like Diane's parenting

464
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:15.639
style and she started yelling at his
kids too. In the fall, Christy

465
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:19.119
was in school all day, Danny
was in daycare, and Cheryl was in

466
00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:22.760
half day kindergarten. Cheryl would wait
outside the house until Diane got off work

467
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:27.800
at two pm. Often, a
kind neighbor, Mary Ward, would invite

468
00:34:27.880 --> 00:34:30.480
Cheryl into her house. She'd give
her lunch, and Cheryl played with her

469
00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:37.239
children until Diane returned home. Mary
eventually began caring for all the children before

470
00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:40.840
and after school. Can you imagine
your little five year old just sitting outside

471
00:34:40.920 --> 00:34:49.000
her No, that's really In September, Diane traveled to Kentucky to be inseminated.

472
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:52.800
She became pregnant due on May tenth, nineteen eighty two. She was

473
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:57.880
in her happy place once again.
Dane was featured in an article in The

474
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:04.199
Washington Post from nineteen eighty three by
Elizabeth Bumiller titled Mothers for Others and the

475
00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:07.719
article, Diane said, quote,
I had a purpose for being here,

476
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:09.639
And that's when my whole hang up. Since I was a little kid.

477
00:35:10.039 --> 00:35:13.559
Why am I here just so my
dad can yell at me, just so

478
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:16.519
my husband can criticize me? Just
to take care of my kids? These

479
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:21.400
people needed me. It made me
somebody. I told the parents that the

480
00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:25.119
baby did more for me than I
ever did for them. End quote.

481
00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:29.800
Interestingly, in the article, Diane
also said that she had a new boyfriend.

482
00:35:30.519 --> 00:35:34.599
She said that they planned to get
married after the pregnancy. During the

483
00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:38.559
pregnancy, Diane began several brief affairs
with men at the Chandler post office.

484
00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:43.880
She had a reputation for being a
rabid lover. She liked to scratch,

485
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:47.639
claw and bite, even drawing blood
sometimes. Diane was a flirt, but

486
00:35:47.719 --> 00:35:52.239
she was very good at her job. She prided herself in her efficiency.

487
00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:55.039
She was often able to finish her
route faster than most of the men.

488
00:35:57.239 --> 00:36:00.760
The Suriga baby was born on May
eighth, nineteen eighty in Kentucky. Diane

489
00:36:00.840 --> 00:36:06.280
flew into Louisville a couple of days
before she was to be induced. The

490
00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:10.119
parents were present at the birth of
the baby girl. Diane relinquished her parental

491
00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:15.519
rights and flew back to Arizona with
a check for ten thousand dollars. They

492
00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:20.480
appreciated what Diane did for them,
but never contacted her again. Diane tried

493
00:36:20.519 --> 00:36:24.800
to send gifts, but they were
refused and returned. This saddened her in

494
00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:29.400
her head. She named the baby
Jennifer, and she never forgot her.

495
00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:34.199
Diane couldn't afford the house on her
own. She sold it and bought a

496
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:37.360
new trailer. Among all the men
that Diane betted, none of them stuck

497
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:43.800
until Robert Nick Knickerbucker. Diane was
so sure of their future together that she

498
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:47.360
tattooed arose on her left shoulder with
Nick's name beneath it in his handwriting.

499
00:36:49.320 --> 00:36:53.079
He was about a decade older.
He was shortish, muscular, and bearded.

500
00:36:53.719 --> 00:36:59.000
He was gentle kind and loving.
He treated Diane tenderly, the first

501
00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:01.800
person ever to do so in her
life. He loved his wife of ten

502
00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:07.320
years, Charlene, but Diane was
seductive and fun. The affair lasted several

503
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:13.079
months. When Diane told Nick she
thought she had a venereal disease, he

504
00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:16.440
knew he needed to come clean to
Charlene. It's unclear if Diane had an

505
00:37:16.519 --> 00:37:22.000
STD or if she was trying to
break up the marriage. Charlene forgave her

506
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:25.960
husband. He had had affairs before
and had always returned to her. Charlene

507
00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:31.960
is very forgiving. Apparently, Diane
flew to Kentucky to be inseminated for another

508
00:37:32.039 --> 00:37:37.440
surrogate pregnancy while she was being treated
for an STD. Probably not not the

509
00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:42.280
best time to get pregnanty No.
This time, she did not conceive.

510
00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:45.039
She had planned for Nick to pick
her up from the airport, but when

511
00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:50.599
she got off the plane, Steve
was there. Diane was crushed. Steve

512
00:37:50.679 --> 00:37:55.719
asked Diane to consider a reconciliation.
She only wanted Nick. She became suicidal.

513
00:37:57.440 --> 00:38:00.559
She took a gun into the bathroom
of her mobile home and told him

514
00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:04.599
she was going to shoot herself.
The noise of a gunshot cracked through the

515
00:38:04.599 --> 00:38:07.960
air of the trailer. Steve broke
down the door to find Diane sitting in

516
00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:12.639
the tub. She hadn't shot herself, she had shot through the floor of

517
00:38:12.679 --> 00:38:17.519
the trailer. Diane began taking clovid
to stimulate her eggs before her next insemination.

518
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:22.239
In October. When she left for
the procedure in Kentucky, which would

519
00:38:22.280 --> 00:38:27.920
again be unsuccessful, there was a
fire in her trailer. It was caused

520
00:38:27.920 --> 00:38:31.199
by faulty wiring, which was suspicious
because the trailer was only six months old.

521
00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:37.920
She received seven thousand dollars in damages
from the insurance claim. Later it

522
00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:40.679
was learned that Steve and Diane had
planned the fire for insurance money, but

523
00:38:40.840 --> 00:38:45.119
Steve started the fire in the bedroom
and then closed the door. It didn't

524
00:38:45.159 --> 00:38:50.880
spread and total the trailer like they'd
planned. Steve said he would repair the

525
00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:53.880
trailer, but he never did.
It was livable, but barely and not

526
00:38:54.039 --> 00:39:00.920
ideal for young children. The amoti
of insurance fraud in these cases is baffling.

527
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:04.880
Does seem to happen a lot,
doesn't it. Diane and Nick rekindled

528
00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:08.440
their relationship. They spent every day
together. He told Diane he was going

529
00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:12.800
to divorce Charlene to be with her, but he made it clear he had

530
00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:16.320
no interest in being a father to
Diane's children. He'd never seen himself as

531
00:39:16.360 --> 00:39:21.159
a father. He was so sure
he didn't want children. He'd reportedly had

532
00:39:21.159 --> 00:39:24.880
of aaseectomy when he was younger.
Charlene, however, refused to divorce him.

533
00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:30.360
Diane rented an apartment for them to
live together, but Nick never moved

534
00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:35.119
in. Diane harassed Charlene. She
called her and hung up multiple times a

535
00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:38.639
day, and wrote letters taunting her. The lives of the children remained hectic.

536
00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:45.280
They were shuttled between Steve's house and
Diane's burned trailer. They'd stayed with

537
00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:49.480
friends, and sometimes they'd go to
Diane's parents for a few weeks. When

538
00:39:49.480 --> 00:39:52.599
they were with Diane, they were
neglected. There wasn't enough structure, affection,

539
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:59.679
food, discipline, or appropriate clothing. Diane was consumed with bettering herself

540
00:39:59.719 --> 00:40:02.559
to make more money and have more
stature in the world. She wanted to

541
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:07.480
build a mansion for her nick and
the children. She would constantly sketch designs

542
00:40:07.480 --> 00:40:12.400
for her dream home. One semester, she'd signed up for more than twenty

543
00:40:12.440 --> 00:40:15.639
credit hours at the community college.
She still dreamed of going to medical school.

544
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:20.199
After a few weeks of the hectic
schedule, she had to quit.

545
00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:23.440
There was no time for her boyfriend, so she was still working full time

546
00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:29.119
during this time too, as a
male carrier. Diane decided to start a

547
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:35.360
surrogacy clinic Arizona Surrogate Parenting. She
rented office space and claimed that she had

548
00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:38.599
five women lined up to become surrogates, but in reality it was just her

549
00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:44.360
and her sister. But Diane was
still under contract with the Kentucky Clinic.

550
00:40:45.159 --> 00:40:51.119
Charlene Knickerbocker called the Kentucky Clinic and
notified them of Diane's recent std and they

551
00:40:51.159 --> 00:40:55.000
severed ties with her. As you
can imagine, starting a surrogacy clinic would

552
00:40:55.000 --> 00:41:00.000
require a vast amount of medical and
legal expertise, neither of which Diane possessed.

553
00:41:00.679 --> 00:41:05.920
Her practice never got off the ground, but Nick had finally committed to

554
00:41:05.960 --> 00:41:10.440
her kind of Here's an excerpt from
Diane's diary in February nineteen eighty three.

555
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:15.000
I could hardly believe my ears today. Nick said he would live in the

556
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:19.719
same house with my kids and me. Of course, then he said he

557
00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:22.639
would have to marry my ass.
But I think I can talk him into

558
00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:27.320
all of me. I'm so happy. Just when I thought Nick would call

559
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:30.760
off our relationship, he said that
he would marry me and live with my

560
00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:35.199
kids. But before I get too
excited, I'll wait awhile he could take

561
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:37.880
another look at the situation and change
his mind. I hope he doesn't.

562
00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:43.920
I sure love him. Instead of
moving in with Diane, Nick rented an

563
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:47.000
apartment. Not ideal, but a
step in the right direction, Diane thought.

564
00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:52.599
But she began to push too hard, he said. Quote. Diane

565
00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:55.039
asked me who I loved the most, her or Charlene. I said I

566
00:41:55.079 --> 00:42:00.480
loved Charlene. She blew up.
She ranted and raved and sc screamed at

567
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:04.360
me. I'd never seen anyone act
that way before. She just lost it.

568
00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:07.800
I know it sounds silly, but
the final straw was when she broke

569
00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:10.800
my hair brush on the quote.
Ye, that's a line you just do

570
00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:15.039
not cross. You go break a
man's hair brush. Nick stormed out and

571
00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:20.280
went home to Charlene. Diane followed
him. She pounded on their door for

572
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:23.960
hours and then resorted to calling their
phone all night. Diane happened to be

573
00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:29.639
the Knickerbocker's mail carrier. Oh.
The next day she knocked on their door.

574
00:42:30.199 --> 00:42:32.480
Charlene said, quote, she began
to tell me what I should do

575
00:42:32.519 --> 00:42:37.280
about my marriage, my relationship with
Nick, everything, and I just lost

576
00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:40.679
my cool. She'd hurt him so
much. I don't usually swear, but

577
00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:44.679
I told her fuck off, and
I slammed the door in her face.

578
00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:50.000
Unquote. Nick was done with Diane
for good, not really. He and

579
00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:53.639
Charlene went to Texas for two weeks
to visit family. Diane called the house

580
00:42:53.679 --> 00:42:58.199
he was staying at one night.
Nick had no idea how she got the

581
00:42:58.280 --> 00:43:02.119
number. He was tired of Diane
and her games. While Nick was in

582
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:07.320
Texas, Diane applied for a job
transfer to Eugene, Oregon. The transfer

583
00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:10.519
was quickly accepted with the help of
her father, Remember, he worked for

584
00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:16.239
the postal system. Her transfer date
was April first. When Nick returned to

585
00:43:16.280 --> 00:43:21.840
Arizona, he and Diane resumed the
relationship. He asked her not to transfer

586
00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:24.559
to Oregon. He gave her his
gold chain that he never took off,

587
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:30.519
and he finally got the matching rose
tattoo that she'd always asked him to get.

588
00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:35.440
Diane attempted to cancel the transfer,
but it was too late. She

589
00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:38.239
had no choice but to move to
Oregon. Nick helped her pack, He

590
00:43:38.280 --> 00:43:44.119
met her parents, Wes Frederickson offered
him a job in Oregon. Diane was

591
00:43:44.159 --> 00:43:47.719
sure Nick would follow her to Oregon
to begin their life together. So they're

592
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:52.000
both playing games like Nick kind of
played games with Diane too, It wasn't

593
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:54.519
just Diane. Yeah, it sounds
like he would get tired of her and

594
00:43:54.559 --> 00:44:00.360
then be right back. As Diane
drove away from Nick, his head cleared

595
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:05.800
and he decided he wanted to reconcile
with Charlene. He told Diane it was

596
00:44:05.840 --> 00:44:09.480
over and stopped taking her calls,
but she called the Chandler post office every

597
00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:13.880
morning and tried to get him on
the phone, but he refused to talk

598
00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:17.760
to her. Diane sent Nick letters, cards, and small gifts daily,

599
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:22.880
but he began refusing mail from her. Their mail game was probably really strong,

600
00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:25.960
whereas they posted Yeah. Her diary, which she frequently wrote in,

601
00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:30.800
was all about Nick. In one
passage, she wrote, quote, don't

602
00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:34.039
doubt me, babe, There's no
one but you. I'll never let anyone

603
00:44:34.079 --> 00:44:37.239
touch me but you. You are
my mate end quote, and in other

604
00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:42.320
entries she said quote no one will
replace you in my bed or my heart

605
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:47.920
end quote. But that wasn't exactly
true. Diane had bundles of love letters

606
00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:52.199
save for Nick, but she was
also seeing other men at the same time.

607
00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:55.920
Why am I not surprised? Despite
desperately waiting for Nick to arrive in

608
00:44:55.960 --> 00:45:00.119
Oregon, Diane began a relationship one
of them, who was training her in

609
00:45:00.199 --> 00:45:04.920
the Eugene office. On April twenty
eighth, about a month after she left

610
00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:09.239
Chandler, Diane returned to give Nick
his gold chain back. Did you ever

611
00:45:09.239 --> 00:45:13.559
wear a gold chain? I've never
wanted a Chaine. We're big back in

612
00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:16.599
the eighties. I think Diane tracked
him down on his mail route. She

613
00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:22.079
was barefoot, wearing jeans and a
string bikini top. Nick was surprised to

614
00:45:22.119 --> 00:45:25.480
see her, She asked him to
unclasp the chain around her neck. Nick

615
00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:30.039
said, quote, I only said
about twenty words to her the whole time

616
00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:34.159
she was there. I told her
I wasn't going to Oregon. I told

617
00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:37.920
her I just didn't want to be
a daddy. She talked at me like

618
00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:43.679
always end quote. Diane returned to
Oregon and didn't contact Nick again until May

619
00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:49.159
nineteenth. One of the last diary
entries was on May thirteenth, nineteen eighty

620
00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:52.119
three. Diane, it seemed,
shifted her focus from Nick to her children.

621
00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:57.159
Quote, well, Sweetie, I
love talking to you, but I

622
00:45:57.239 --> 00:46:00.880
have my own life here. I
have three beautiful children I love more than

623
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:05.039
anyone else. I think I even
love them more than you now. They

624
00:46:05.079 --> 00:46:08.079
stand by me no matter what.
Danny says. He's my best buddy,

625
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:13.119
and I'm his best buddy. He's
always giving me kisses and hugs. Every

626
00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:15.840
morning when I go to work,
he waves and says, my mom,

627
00:46:15.880 --> 00:46:20.280
pick me up after work. I
love you. He's beautiful and always so

628
00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:23.920
happy. Christy and Cheryl are fantastic
in their own right. Also, Chris

629
00:46:23.960 --> 00:46:28.239
is so smart. She always gets
a's and she is always willing to help.

630
00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:30.840
She drew a picture. You'll never
believe what the picture was of you.

631
00:46:31.639 --> 00:46:36.280
She drew you with me and your
thought bubble. Pretty smart, huh,

632
00:46:36.599 --> 00:46:39.039
She's so very bright. I'll bet
she really does become a lawyer when

633
00:46:39.079 --> 00:46:43.480
she grows up. She's been saying
it for almost a year now. And

634
00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:46.760
Cheryl so full of bubbly energy.
She's so agile, always doing flips and

635
00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:52.320
acrobatics. I'm considering getting her into
gymnastics. But she's just as sweet as

636
00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:55.639
cuddly as Danny. When I get
to my mom's house after work, she

637
00:46:55.679 --> 00:47:00.360
always wants to sit on my lap
and be close. And she's the one

638
00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:05.000
that always thinks of giving me flowers. End quote. So the diary at

639
00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:07.239
this point, it makes this dramatic
shift from everything's about Nick and how much

640
00:47:07.239 --> 00:47:10.679
she loves him, and then this
last entry she talks about her kids and

641
00:47:10.719 --> 00:47:15.960
how much she loves him, which
kind of seemed suspicious and maybe sort of

642
00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:21.159
an alibi, and she knew the
police would find it. Remember when she

643
00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:23.639
was in the emergency room, she
asked the police, when you go to

644
00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:28.719
my apartment, bring me back my
diary, which was an odd request.

645
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:32.480
Yeah, strange. Diane dropped the
three children off early in the morning of

646
00:47:32.599 --> 00:47:37.519
May nineteenth at her parents' house.
Like most days, will Adeine helped Diane

647
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:40.239
out with the children a lot.
She fed the girl's breakfast before they walked

648
00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:45.039
to school. Then she and Danny
spent the day together playing and running errands

649
00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:49.440
while Diane worked her postal route.
Diane and the kids often ate dinner at

650
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:52.639
Wes and will Adeane's house, but
on May nineteenth, Diane took the kids

651
00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:57.679
home after work and fed them canned
ravioli for dinner. Later that night,

652
00:47:57.760 --> 00:48:00.599
they went out on an adventure to
see a friend's horse who lived in the

653
00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:06.239
country. Diane enjoyed her freedom with
Christy, Cheryl, and Danny without anyone

654
00:48:06.280 --> 00:48:10.559
telling her what was appropriate. They
were enjoying exploring their new state of Oregon.

655
00:48:12.280 --> 00:48:15.280
They often went to the beach or
on hikes. On that fateful evening,

656
00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:20.119
they were confronted by the armed stranger
on the dark rural road at about

657
00:48:20.159 --> 00:48:24.199
nine thirty pm. Diane claimed they
took Old Mohawk Road that night because she

658
00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:29.800
liked to take new, unfamiliar roads. Life was an adventure, But at

659
00:48:29.880 --> 00:48:32.719
nine thirty at night, it was
dark like we talked about earlier, and

660
00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:37.960
she had her three kids in the
like I doesn't add up no. While

661
00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:42.360
Christy and Danny fought for their lives
in the hospital, the police began the

662
00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:46.320
investigation and manhunt into the shooting on
Old Mohawk Road, but the Springfield,

663
00:48:46.360 --> 00:48:52.280
Oregon Police already had a suspect in
their sights. Along the crime scene on

664
00:48:52.360 --> 00:48:58.960
Old Mohawk Road, two twenty two
caliber bullet casings were found in Diane's car.

665
00:48:59.199 --> 00:49:04.880
Four more bulls casings were found.
One forty nine man hours were spent

666
00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:09.039
looking for the discarded gun used in
the shooting and in the icy waters of

667
00:49:09.119 --> 00:49:14.360
the Mohawk River, but it was
never found. It was the key piece

668
00:49:14.360 --> 00:49:20.719
of evidence investigators needed. Do you
remember when Diane shot the gun into the

669
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:24.639
floor of the trailer when she was
feeling suicidal. Investigators went to the abandoned

670
00:49:24.639 --> 00:49:29.480
trailer in hopes of finding the bullet
casing to tie it to the shooting.

671
00:49:29.920 --> 00:49:34.440
They searched for a day and a
half in the scorching Arizona heat, sifting

672
00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:37.559
through the rocks, sand and clay
under the trailer, and eventually they found

673
00:49:37.559 --> 00:49:42.760
it. They jumped up and down
with excitement. They thought that this might

674
00:49:42.800 --> 00:49:46.400
be enough to arrest Diane. The
bullet wasn't in great shape. About half

675
00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:52.320
of it was rusted and had lost
the unique markings that that the twenty two

676
00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:57.320
pestle had left. When the ballistic
tests were returned, they weren't one hundred

677
00:49:57.320 --> 00:50:01.280
percent certain that the weathered bullet could
have been fire from the same gun that

678
00:50:01.320 --> 00:50:06.480
shot Cheryl, Christy and Danny,
which was a huge blow to the investigation

679
00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:10.119
and there was just no way that
this evidence would hold up in court.

680
00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:15.199
Investigators were determined to find bullet casings
that had been shot from the twenty two

681
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:20.639
pistols Steve and Diane owned. They
even went to Mexico to search Steve's old

682
00:50:20.639 --> 00:50:23.360
truck that had been sold to someone
there. They weren't able to find any

683
00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:30.039
bullet casings in it. Investigators searched
Diane's duplex. It was a depressing place.

684
00:50:30.519 --> 00:50:34.760
Boxes were still stacked up against the
walls, and there was little furniture

685
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:37.639
in the whole apartment, only a
TV and one chair in the living room

686
00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:42.880
and the kitchen there wasn't a table, there were no chairs, and the

687
00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:45.880
kitchen was largely unpacked. There was
little to no food in the refrigerator.

688
00:50:46.280 --> 00:50:51.239
A large can of ravioli was found
in the garbage. At least the children

689
00:50:51.280 --> 00:50:53.960
had eaten dinner that night. There
were no decorations in the house, but

690
00:50:54.159 --> 00:50:59.719
four photos lined the top of the
TV, two large photos of Diane and

691
00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:02.920
two two smaller photos of a man
with a beard. There were no photos

692
00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:07.920
of the children. There was a
small garfield figurine and a nine inch tall

693
00:51:08.039 --> 00:51:14.800
brass unicorn statue with an engraving that
read Christy, Cheryl and Danny, I

694
00:51:14.920 --> 00:51:21.280
Love you Mom. May thirteenth,
nineteen eighty three. Investigators believed that the

695
00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:27.440
unicorn was possibly a memorial of sorts
to the children. Maybe Diane had intended

696
00:51:27.440 --> 00:51:30.079
to kill them a week earlier.
That's really strange. Is that really strange

697
00:51:30.199 --> 00:51:35.639
to put that date on there?
Yeah. Upstairs was in the same unpacked

698
00:51:35.800 --> 00:51:39.320
stage, except for Diane's bedroom.
Her waterbed was neatly made and covered with

699
00:51:39.360 --> 00:51:44.320
a quilt. A box of love
letters and cards for Nick was on the

700
00:51:44.320 --> 00:51:49.320
floor, along with an article on
how to file for bankruptcy and several articles

701
00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:53.639
on surrogacy. Over two hundred pieces
of evidence were collected by police during the

702
00:51:53.719 --> 00:51:59.559
search. Detectives found the pistol where
Diane had told them it would be in

703
00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:04.800
her clock it had not been recently
used. Diane remained in the hospital while

704
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:08.199
her home was being searched. An
armed police officer guarded her room and the

705
00:52:08.280 --> 00:52:13.400
rooms of her children in case the
gunman returned. She asked the police to

706
00:52:13.400 --> 00:52:16.559
bring her back her diary. The
detective found the diary, made a copy

707
00:52:16.599 --> 00:52:20.880
of it, and delivered it to
her in the hospital. The diary was

708
00:52:20.920 --> 00:52:25.239
mostly written in the form of letters
to Nick. Investigators knew they needed to

709
00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:30.559
interview him as soon as possible.
Despite the protection of the armed guard outside

710
00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:35.760
her door, Diane didn't sleep a
wink. At seven am, she called

711
00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:40.000
her friend Karen at the Chandler Arizona
post office. Nick stood nearby. He

712
00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:45.079
had been refusing Diane's calls for weeks
because their entanglement had been so messy.

713
00:52:45.559 --> 00:52:47.760
He had been intoxicated for months by
her, but he'd sobered up and didn't

714
00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:52.320
want anything to do with her now. He wanted to make his marriage work.

715
00:52:52.679 --> 00:52:55.880
Against his better judgment, He talked
to Diane briefly that day, and

716
00:52:57.119 --> 00:53:00.559
she quickly told him about the attack. Ruskally ended the call, but not

717
00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:05.440
before Diane told him she loved him. He muttered, I don't know what

718
00:53:05.480 --> 00:53:10.159
to believe as he walked away.
Diane's car was processed. Gunpowder residue was

719
00:53:10.760 --> 00:53:15.880
found in three quarters of the car, but not on the driver's side.

720
00:53:15.960 --> 00:53:20.320
The red interior of the car made
it hard to differentiate between the blood stains

721
00:53:20.440 --> 00:53:23.400
and the fabric. There was a
large pool of blood on the passenger side

722
00:53:23.480 --> 00:53:30.480
carpet where Cheryl was found, and
one unspent twenty two bullet casing blood and

723
00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:34.280
vomit were found in the back seat, along with three spent twenty two shells.

724
00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:38.800
The blood spray spatter an angle of
the children's wounds were consistent with someone

725
00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:44.840
leaning in the driver's side window and
shooting into the car. The exterior of

726
00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:47.360
the passenger side door had blood on
it, as if someone had been shot

727
00:53:47.440 --> 00:53:52.239
outside of the car. Who had
been outside of the car though, investigators

728
00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:55.599
thought that Cheryl may have been shot
when she opened the door and tried to

729
00:53:55.760 --> 00:54:00.199
escape. But I thought maybe it
was possible that Diane had shot herself and

730
00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:05.239
that that's what I was too.
Yeah. In the trunk, an old

731
00:54:05.320 --> 00:54:08.760
rusted thirty eight was found and it
hadn't been shot. Recently, tips came

732
00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:13.760
into the police of other sightings of
bushy haired men. They were followed up

733
00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:17.280
on, but nothing viable. Who
else could have shot Diana and her kids?

734
00:54:17.440 --> 00:54:22.800
The mysterious nick his wife? What
do you think? Well? Were

735
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:25.119
they? They weren't in Oregon,
though, were they? No? So

736
00:54:25.199 --> 00:54:30.239
probably not, and probably not just
some strange guy waving the car down.

737
00:54:30.280 --> 00:54:35.280
That's pretty unlikely as well. Cheryl's
autopsy revealed that she had been shot twice.

738
00:54:35.440 --> 00:54:38.599
The first shot had been close up
and entered through Cheryl's left shoulder blade

739
00:54:38.599 --> 00:54:43.320
and went through her rib cage,
left lung, aorta, and trachia.

740
00:54:43.840 --> 00:54:46.639
The second bullet was also close close
up, over her right shoulder blade.

741
00:54:46.840 --> 00:54:51.440
The bullet had gone through a rib, right lung, aorta, and trachea.

742
00:54:52.119 --> 00:54:55.440
The bullet remained trapped beneath the skin
of Cheryl's left shoulder. Either shot

743
00:54:55.480 --> 00:55:00.800
would have been enough to kill her. She bled to death. So these

744
00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:06.159
poor little bodies. Are you ravaged
by these close up shots? Yeah,

745
00:55:06.159 --> 00:55:10.039
that's so horrible, so sad,
a doctor said of Diane's injuries. Quote.

746
00:55:10.920 --> 00:55:15.519
A single bullet entered the left forearm
on the dorsal side or the thumb

747
00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:21.719
side. It split into and it
shattered the radius and then exited, leaving

748
00:55:21.719 --> 00:55:27.480
two smaller wounds. Before Judy the
receptionist, had cleaned Diane's arm, there

749
00:55:27.480 --> 00:55:30.960
had been evidence of stippling on her
wounds too, so it must have been

750
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:35.559
a close up shot exactly. I
think we're gonna end there. No,

751
00:55:36.039 --> 00:55:37.920
you're gonna keep me in suspense.
I'm going to keep you in suspense.

752
00:55:37.960 --> 00:55:42.480
I'm sorry. It's a long one. There's a lot here. Yeah,

753
00:55:42.519 --> 00:55:45.360
we could do easily do six parts
on this case. There's a lot of

754
00:55:45.400 --> 00:55:50.159
information, there's a lot of audio
and video. I guess that the video

755
00:55:50.239 --> 00:55:55.519
really doesn't help us on the podcast. So who do you think shot Diane

756
00:55:55.519 --> 00:56:00.760
and her children? Diane, you're
pretty sound, you sound very certain.

757
00:56:00.920 --> 00:56:04.599
I don't have any other suspects at
this point, but maybe I'll learn of

758
00:56:04.639 --> 00:56:07.280
another suspect. But right now it
seems like all signs are pointing to Diane.

759
00:56:08.039 --> 00:56:20.119
Same. We'll be back after a
break. So OJ died yesterday,

760
00:56:20.679 --> 00:56:24.280
Yes, he did. Were you
sat? No? I wasn't sad.

761
00:56:25.320 --> 00:56:30.559
Good riddance, I said, absolutely. The good thing about OJ dying is

762
00:56:30.599 --> 00:56:34.960
like no one has to feel bad
about making a joke because he's a pretty

763
00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:37.719
hated man. Yeah, pretty much. Do you remember where you were when

764
00:56:37.719 --> 00:56:40.519
the Verdic came, Oh, yeah, I mean it is. It is

765
00:56:40.519 --> 00:56:44.480
funny. I like, you remember, you have these moments that you remember

766
00:56:44.519 --> 00:56:46.360
exactly where you were. And I
was at work. You called me.

767
00:56:47.480 --> 00:56:51.880
Yeah, I just remember everybody at
work, like there was a TV up

768
00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:54.960
in the corner, everybody was watching
and it was Yeah, it was crazy.

769
00:56:55.920 --> 00:57:00.119
I didn't live in Michigan at the
time, and I was at work

770
00:57:00.280 --> 00:57:05.760
and you called me, and I
actually vividly remember it. Oh yeah,

771
00:57:05.800 --> 00:57:08.599
and we chatted for a minute.
And do you remember where you were during

772
00:57:08.599 --> 00:57:12.559
the Bronco chase. I don't remember
as much. I don't know if I

773
00:57:12.559 --> 00:57:15.559
even watched it or I just probably
saw it later. I yeah, I

774
00:57:15.599 --> 00:57:19.199
don't remember that. I remember the
Bronco Chase, but I don't remember where

775
00:57:19.239 --> 00:57:22.599
I was. I was shocked at
the jury. I don't remember this.

776
00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:28.639
But the jury only deliberate for three
hours before finding him not guilty. That's

777
00:57:28.679 --> 00:57:31.159
bananas, because I think we must
have thought during the time, like,

778
00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:35.440
oh, they're definitely going to come. I mean, yeah, for sure.

779
00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:37.519
But yeah, it was a it
was. It was a mess of

780
00:57:37.519 --> 00:57:43.840
a trial. I had to google
yesterday whether Ron Goldman was still alive or

781
00:57:43.920 --> 00:57:47.159
not, because I was hoping that
he outlived OJ so he could have some

782
00:57:47.239 --> 00:57:52.000
sense of justice. Right, he
is still alive, he's in his eighties,

783
00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:55.400
so hopefully he'll be able to pee
on OJ's grave. Yeah, hope.

784
00:57:55.480 --> 00:58:01.119
So that was a pivotal time in
true crime. That was, you

785
00:58:01.119 --> 00:58:04.880
know, the first big case.
I think that everyone was glued to.

786
00:58:05.559 --> 00:58:09.159
The twenty four hour news cycle came
into existence, and yeah, I think

787
00:58:09.199 --> 00:58:13.480
we were all obsessed. Actually,
one of my biggest memories of that was,

788
00:58:13.519 --> 00:58:17.039
do you remember the guy called into
CNN and he was fake, No,

789
00:58:17.320 --> 00:58:20.239
I'm gonna have to find the clip
and put it in here. But

790
00:58:20.840 --> 00:58:24.000
this guy called into CNN and he
was telling them he could see OJ,

791
00:58:24.440 --> 00:58:28.480
like I think it was during the
Bronco chase, and they're talking to this

792
00:58:28.519 --> 00:58:30.480
guy live on the air, and
it became apparent after a few minutes this

793
00:58:30.519 --> 00:58:35.719
guy was just like making stuff up. Oh really, like what kind of

794
00:58:36.440 --> 00:58:38.599
I'm gonna have to find the clip. I'll find it, I'll put it

795
00:58:38.639 --> 00:58:42.960
in here and I'll play it for
you. Just gonna ask everybody to be

796
00:58:43.000 --> 00:58:45.360
quiet for a moment. We have
on the phone with us as well,

797
00:58:45.480 --> 00:58:49.079
Robert Higgins, who lives in the
neighborhood and is on the ground and can

798
00:58:49.119 --> 00:58:52.960
see inside the band. Mister Higgins, Oh yeah, how are you just

799
00:58:53.000 --> 00:58:59.119
about as tense as you are?
So well? Can you see what I'm

800
00:58:59.159 --> 00:59:01.719
looking at right now? I'm looking
at the van and I see OJ kind

801
00:59:01.719 --> 00:59:07.519
of slouching down, looking very very
upset. Now look at here, he

802
00:59:07.599 --> 00:59:12.599
look very upset. I don't know
what he gonna be doing. Can you

803
00:59:12.800 --> 00:59:15.760
can you can you see him doing
anything specific? Is he merely sitting there?

804
00:59:15.840 --> 00:59:19.880
He is just uh sitting around,
you know, or just uh looking

805
00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:23.519
like he'd be very nervous. Can
you hear anything, mister Higgins. It's

806
00:59:23.599 --> 00:59:27.559
just too much commotion. I'd be
in the back of a news van,

807
00:59:27.760 --> 00:59:30.119
so I can't really hear that good. But I can see it all.

808
00:59:30.760 --> 00:59:36.880
And I see O J. I
see OJ man and he looks scared,

809
00:59:37.360 --> 00:59:43.199
and I would be scared cause there's
cops. Old deepness, Thank you,

810
00:59:43.199 --> 00:59:49.280
mister Higgins, and Baba ba e
to y'all. The driveway of O.

811
00:59:49.400 --> 00:59:55.639
J. Simpson's home in Brentwood clearly
an effort being made to have him come

812
00:59:55.679 --> 01:00:01.000
out of the vehicle. In the
doorway of the house. His friend Al

813
01:00:01.119 --> 01:00:05.679
Cowling Peter by the way, Just
for the record, this is Al Michaels.

814
01:00:05.679 --> 01:00:10.360
So that was a totally farcical call. Lest anybody think that that was

815
01:00:10.400 --> 01:00:15.480
somebody who was truly across the street, that was not. He said something

816
01:00:15.519 --> 01:00:20.239
in code at the end that's indicative
of the mentioning of the name of a

817
01:00:20.280 --> 01:00:22.800
certain radio talk show host. Okay, thanks, hell so he was not

818
01:00:22.920 --> 01:00:25.480
there. All right, we have
them on every coast, thank you very

819
01:00:25.559 --> 01:00:29.760
much. Not the first time nor
the last time we'll have been had.

820
01:00:29.800 --> 01:00:34.599
But well, someone posted a meme. There's a lot of memes already.

821
01:00:34.639 --> 01:00:42.159
But like if OJ's funeral procession isn't
like a white bronco with all the police

822
01:00:42.199 --> 01:00:45.639
following behind, Yeah, for sure. I hope the Goldman's and Nicole Brown

823
01:00:45.639 --> 01:00:52.400
Simpson's family finally have just a little
bit of peace and closure. I know

824
01:00:52.440 --> 01:00:54.719
there are a lot of people out
there that deserve to be in prison,

825
01:00:54.800 --> 01:00:59.880
but not many as much as OJ. Yeah, and it seems like his

826
01:01:00.079 --> 01:01:02.519
victims have been forgotten in a lot
of this because you know, all the

827
01:01:02.559 --> 01:01:07.679
focus has been on OJ. So, yeah, that happened so often.

828
01:01:07.719 --> 01:01:12.440
Even in the case that I'm talking
about today, Diane downs like poor little

829
01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:15.639
chryl I feel like she's been lost
in this a little bit. Yeah,

830
01:01:15.760 --> 01:01:19.840
Okay, it's Friday night, dinner
time, your night to pick. What

831
01:01:19.880 --> 01:01:22.239
do we have for dinner? I
know we've been on this rotation lately,

832
01:01:22.360 --> 01:01:24.760
and yeah, we take turns.
I don't cook on a Friday. At

833
01:01:24.800 --> 01:01:28.639
first, I thought this is a
really good thing because it'll be like,

834
01:01:28.679 --> 01:01:30.599
oh, yeah, it's just your
night to pick and you decide. But

835
01:01:30.639 --> 01:01:32.559
now it feels like a lot of
pressure, like, oh, man,

836
01:01:32.599 --> 01:01:36.000
I don't know what to pick.
I don't I don't know. Yeah,

837
01:01:36.079 --> 01:01:38.320
I'm thinking you did go get us
nice sandwiches today for a lunch. I

838
01:01:38.400 --> 01:01:42.440
was out anyway, So yeah,
you went to the dentist. I did.

839
01:01:43.480 --> 01:01:46.559
I'm thinking from the dentist, by
the way you talk about Yeah,

840
01:01:46.599 --> 01:01:53.079
I'm thinking Panda Express for dinner.
It's orange chicken. Really Yeah that surprises

841
01:01:53.159 --> 01:01:57.239
me. That's just because it's nearby, right, Yeah, Yeah, we've

842
01:01:57.239 --> 01:02:00.719
talked about this before, but we're
like an hour and a half off outside.

843
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:04.639
We're not that far out. But
some days, yeah, it takes

844
01:02:04.639 --> 01:02:09.880
a while to get fil Well,
go make how sweet eats? Uh wait?

845
01:02:09.920 --> 01:02:13.079
Limit, I want to get the
name right, salted chewy, gooey,

846
01:02:13.159 --> 01:02:15.679
chocolate chip skillet cookie and put some
ice cream on top. I promise

847
01:02:16.119 --> 01:02:21.039
you won't regret it. It's delicious. I also promise that you won't regret

848
01:02:21.079 --> 01:02:24.880
it. Please rate, review,
follow and subscribe, find us on social

849
01:02:24.920 --> 01:02:30.000
media, or send us an email
at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. And

850
01:02:30.119 --> 01:02:35.639
please consider supporting us on Patreon dot
com slash Love Mary Kill one tier five

851
01:02:35.679 --> 01:02:40.199
dollars a month early ad free access
and a monthly bonus episode, and you

852
01:02:40.280 --> 01:02:45.800
will be posting parts one and two
of this case. Wow. Correct.

853
01:02:46.199 --> 01:02:51.719
I will thank you so much to
everyone who has left of a five star

854
01:02:51.800 --> 01:02:57.199
review. Leaving a five star review
for us or any other podcast really is

855
01:02:57.480 --> 01:03:02.480
the nicest best thing you can do
to support us or anyone else that you

856
01:03:02.639 --> 01:03:07.840
listen to and appreciate. Yeah,
it is much appreciated. Until next time,

857
01:03:07.360 --> 01:03:49.719
don't kill your husband. Don't kill
your wife.