Diane Downs - Part 2

0:00 Hi, I'm Tina, and I'm rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife, and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to Love Mary Kill. I've got that opening down now. I don't need to look at a script or anything the same. So you take it a year and a half and we're good. How are you I'm great. I'm looking forward to hearing the rest of this case. How are you doing? I'm great. I'm excited to finish it up. I think it's going to be one part, but it's possible it's going to extend into three parts.

0:47 I have the feeling we have a lot left to talk about. We have a lot left to talk about, for sure. So we're matching today. We're wearing the same shirt we'd like to match on Saturday. Saturday morning, we wake up and say, hey, what should we wear today? Yeah, but today we're wearing your love Mary Kill sweatshirts. Yeah. It's really nice a lot. If anyone is interested in owning a Love Mary Kill T shirt or sweatshirt, it wouldn't be the ones that we had made. I think they're I think they're really nice. If I have enough people message me, we will do another run. Our printer reached out and asked if we wanted to do another run, and my instinct is to say no, but if enough people want what we would do it again. I did bring a snack for you. It's not as amazing as the skillet cookie. You could have just brought that again. Really well, course I could have. Well, it's not homemade, but it is a slice of blueberry lemon loa from Costco. I'm always curious as a consumer when I go to Costco, hm is that good or not? So it is good. I can tell you because I had a piece already this morning for breakfast. You had it.

1:55 I did, Yeah, okay, I like it. You probably don't want another piece. Then you never know. You can put it down. I might, I might eat it and very for a while. And I also brought you a kara kara. I don't know if it's kara kara Kara kara orange. They're delicious, They're really good. It's definitely at the end of the season. We've had these for a couple of years now, and they're the best oranges I've ever had. They're really pretty inside. It's kind of like a really uh I don't know what would you describe that color of pinkish orange. I mean they're almost red, like they're very dark deep orange inside. I would say, yeah, I love them. Yeah, they're really good, and I think, like I said, they're almost done for the season. But if you haven't had one and they're available in your area, definitely try it. So you're not gonna eat the you just do you want to just describe the blueberry lemon loaf. It is very it's got a little bit of a hint of lemon in it, and it's very light, and it's delicious. Really, it's I don't know how to describe it other than it's really good. I don't love it. There's not enough blueberries in it.

2:51 There could be more blueberries. It definitely could be more blueberries. I would prefer Cosco's blueberry muffin to the blueberry lemon loaf. I think it's fine, but it's not anything to be excited about. In my opinion. I like it good. Let's take a quick break. I am going to have a little bit of the orange and we'll be right back. Well, we've established that it's hard to eat an orange without looking like a savage. Well, it's the way I cut them, though. I don't like to peel an orange. I like to cut the orange. Yeah, it was good though, thanks to the sack. You're welcome. Do you want to summarize us? Sure, we're talking. We should say first, if you haven't listened apart one, go listen to part one. Yeah, we're talking about the story of Diane Downs. I just want to say, Debbie Downs, do you know why why? There was a Saturday Night Live skit Debbie Downer.

3:44 It was one of the funniest sketches ever on Saturday Night Live, And so I have Debbie Downer in my head. I vaguely remember that who played Debbie down Rachel Dratch. It was one of those where the cast members would always crack up because it was just so funny. Nobody could nobody could keep a straight face. So how are you gonna anyway place that in the episode? I'm sure I could a little clip in, Hey, who wants to go on Space Mountain with me? I want to see the country bear Jambourine. I want to go to every country in Epcot and greet them in their own native language. Oh lay too high? Did you guys hear about that train explosion? In northern media is so sensitive there, so secretive that they may they may never know how many people perished. Right digress, So this story is not about Debbie Downer. It's about Diane Downs. On May nineteenth, nineteen eighty three, Diane Downs and her three children, Christy, Cheryl, and Danny, who are eight, seven, and three, respectively, were shot on a rural road outside of Springfield, Oregon. Cheryl died from her injuries. Christy and Danny were gravely injured, and Diane suffered non life threatening wounds to her left arm. She said that a bushy haired stranger had shot them. A manhunt came up empty for the shooter, and the police

5:17 quickly grew suspicious of Diane, partly because of her lack of emotion. Diane was divorced from the children's father, Steve Downs, and she had recently relocated from Chandler, Arizona, to Springfield, Oregon. She had a history of messy affairs and entanglements, most recently with a married man named Nick Knickerbucker. Diane and Nick met at the post office where they worked Nick had been in love with Diane, but was adamant that he had no interest in being a father. While you did great summarizing that off the top of her head, it's almost so amazing. I wrote you a little summary because I appreciate that. Thank you. You're welcome. Fred, huge assistant DA and his wife Joanne, a professor at the University of Oregon, had no children by choice.

6:05 It's not that they didn't like children, they were both deeply immersed in their professional careers and had chosen to remain childless. In the hours after the shooting, Fred went to the hospital to check on the children. Christy and Danny shared a room. They were both covered in tubes and wires, barely clinging to life. No family member was present to watch over them. Their grandparents flitted in and out of the room a few times, but they had social obligations to keep and they preferred not to cancel them. Diane was a patient in the hospital as well, but she hadn't yet visited them. Fred pulled up a chair and sat between Christy and Danny. A feeling of love washed over him for the children. He spent the night and several after watching after the children to protect them. It became his mission to find whoever murdered their sister and nearly killed them. He wanted to be sure they never suffered again. Fred knew that Danny was too small to communicate what had transpired the night of the shooting, but eight year old Christie might have seen something and have been able to identify the shooter. Fred didn't want to scare or traumatize the children further. He called his friend Paula Krogdall, who worked for the Oregon State Children's Services Division. She was good with children, and Fred thought she might be able to talk to Christie. But suddenly she began having seizures, and then tragically, she suffered a stroke which left her speechless. Doctors were perplexed as to what caused the stroke and were uncertain if she would regain the ability to speak. Only time would tell. Christie's right hand was paralyzed in the shooting and the left was heavily bandaged. She was alert and observant.

7:39 However, Fred huge was sure she was aware of what was going on, even if she couldn't yet communicate. That's really sad and the kids were really in bad shape. Within twenty four hours the media caught hold of the story of the young mother and her three children being attacked on the rural road. Diane's hospital room overflowed with cards and flowers. The one person she most wanted to receive flowers from, Nick, didn't send any. The few friends Diane had made since her short time in Oregon and her coworkers leapt to her defense, calling her devoted mother and hard ambitious worker. Residents of Springfield and surrounding areas were panicked and wouldn't let their children play outside for fear of a madman on the loose. The public sympathy for Diane Downs, however, was short lived. After the first forty eight hours, investigators began to question the veracity of Diane's story. Two detectives traveled to Chandler, Arizona, to interview Nick Knickerbocker and his wife, Charlene. They started to refer to the gunmen as BHS or bushy haired stranger. The story just didn't add up. Why didn't he just kill Diane if he wanted the car the children were sleeping in the car. Would the BHS even be able to see the small children in the near dark to shoot them? But Diane did later tell Oprah that the dome light was on and that's how he could see into the card shore to the children. The DA told the media that quote, the search for the bearded stranger is not high on the priority list, end quote, implying Diane

9:09 was already the number one suspect. There were small inconsistencies each time Diane told the story. First she had told Judy, the er receptionist, that the stranger had leaned his body into the car to shoot the children, but later she told detectives that his arm was outside the car when he shot the children. Sometimes she said that the killer had been standing in the road, and other times he jogged up to the car. They were small inconsistencies, but enough that the police were suspicious. Sometimes Diane remembered that her children were awake and laughing before the incident, and sometimes they were asleep. Months later, Diane would claim that there were two men in ski masks, and the man had said her name and knew her identity. She was all over the place.

9:54 Law enforcement thought about having the doctors extend Diane's hospital state to keep tabs up on her, but they hoped after her release, she might lead them to evidence, specifically the gun. Remember, the gun was not found and they didn't have much evidence, so the gun was super important. For sure. They were nervous for her to have her freedom, but planned on watching her every move. Four days after the shooting, on May twenty third, the police held a reenactment of the shooting with Diane. She was talkative, giggly, flirty, and making jokes. She didn't appear at all like a woman who had just lost a child. Diane made an offhanded comment to one officer, quote, Cheryl's better off. You know, I feel almost guilty because I'm happy for Cheryl, because she's probably in heaven and horrible. Police gave Diane a tape recorder to record voice memos in case she remembered any details.

10:50 She said the following into the recorder after her release from the hospital quote. When I left the hospital, I was scared. God, I'd go to that front door and wheelchair. I wanted to just grab the wheels and stop the chair. I was terrified. I didn't know if he was waiting outside ready to get rid of me, Afraid that I said something. Oh, I went outside and I had this sick feeling. It's just a cold sweat, sick, feeling fear, and I got in the car and I went home. All those flowers. You wouldn't believe all the flowers we brought home today. Goodness gracious. I need to write thank you cards to everybody. Anyway, when we got home, my mom brought all the flowers in. I brought in what I could. But I don't know. I just I don't feel I feel dead. I feel like I'm not here. I found a heart. Cheryl made a heart, cut a little piece of paper out and wrote I love you mom on it end quote. So here she's focusing on like these flowers, and she just likes the attention and adulation that people are putting on her. Yeah. Diane moved in with her parents after she left the hospital, which she really didn't want to do because she hated her father. Diane spent her days visiting Danny and Christy in the hospital.

12:01 An investigator with the DA's office, Paul Alton, witnessed Diane visiting Christy for the first time. Christie's eyes widened in fear. Diane held her hand and repeatedly told her that she loved her. Paul noted that Christie's heart rate monitor rose from eighty beats permitted to one hundred and forty seven beats per minuted, and he thought he observed a menacing look on Diane's face each time Diane visited Christie's heart rate sword. The children were both improving each day, but had long roads ahead of them. The shooting left them both with lifelong health complications. I hope someone was protecting Christie because I would be worried that Diane would look to do something to her to keep her from talking. There was an arm guard outside of the room for a little bit, and Fred Huge went as much as he could, and he watched over the children too. The location of the bullet in Danny's back so close to his spinal column eight doctors nervous. He didn't have feeling in his lower extremities. He was transferred to Sacred Heart Hospital and Eugene for surgery. The surgery wasn't successful. Danny was left with no feeling below his chest and had little hope for improvement. Christy had cheated death and her covery was impressive. She was intubated and unable to talk, but her eyes were very expressive, so they knew that she was going to be okay, and they hoped she was going to be okay.

13:28 Wes Frederickson, Diane's father, called Stephen Downs the day after the shooting. He happened to be on a date. The woman dropped him off at the airport so he could catch the next flight to Oregon. When Steve Downs arrived in Oregon, he went right to the hospital to see his children. He wasn't Father of the Year, but he loved his kids. He was shocked and devastated by the loss of Cheryl and the state of Danny and Christie. He couldn't imagine anyone wanting to harm his children. He was interviewed by the police. He told them that he was an electrician and owned his own business in Chandler. Since Diane and his children moved to Oregon, Steve had talked to them about once a week. He told investigators that he and Diane were on good terms and he considered her a friend. When asked what weapons Diane owned, he said, quote, Diane's got three guns, a twenty two rifle, a thirty eight revolver, and a twenty two Ruger Mark four nine shot semi automatic pistol. Steve knew about Nick. He told police that Diane had returned to Chandler recently to visit Nick and had stayed at Steve's house.

14:33 He wasn't a fan of Nick, he knew he was married and thought that he was leading Diane on. Steve slept in a chair between his children's hospital beds. Die Fred Hughgy was pressured to have Diane arrested. He knew he didn't have enough evidence, though Diane had the upper hand for the moment. Cheryl was laid to rest on May twenty fifth, nineteen eighty three. The funeral was packed with sympathetic strangers, friends, and family, all shocked and heartbroken that a ruthless man had killed an innocent child. Diane placed a single red rose on Cheryl's coffin. A grand jury was convened about three weeks after the shooting. Diane was subpoenaed to testify and take a lie detector test.

15:16 She refused to meet with the grand jury and would continue to do so for months. The case was moving much slower than the state wanted. Eventually, all of Diane's family members were called to testify. Some of them thought she was guilty, including her sister and father, who later changed his mind and declared her innocent. By early June, Christie began to regain speech. Diane stuck close to her side. She saw both children every day. Danny was doing well, but remained paralyzed from the chest down. He was a sweet, smart boy. The entire hospital staff had fallen in love with him. He was confused. He didn't understand why he couldn't move. Police tried to question him, but he really hadn't processed what had happened and who had hurt him. He said things like, quote, I can't stand up because my mommy ran me over with the car unquote. Diane was sure he would walk again with her love and support. She refused to believe the doctors. Isn't that the saddest that to think of a three year old in the hospital unable to move? Yes, so sad, Yeah, no idea, what's going on? I'm sure. Diane had an operation on her damaged arm. A bone graft was taken from her hip and a plate was inserted over her shattered left radius bone. The surgery required Diane to stay in the hospital for four days. During this time, the state removed Christy and Danny from her custody and gave temporary custody to the doctors who were overseeing the children's care, allowing them to make the best medical decision on their behalf without fear of retribution from

16:51 Diane. On June sixth, there was a hearing for Diane to regain custody of Christie and Danny. She lost, but loved all the attention media showered upon her. To the public, this pretty young mother with her arms still in a cast looked like an injured bird. She still had their support. The public was torn. Some people believed in her innocence, but there were some people that were like, oh, no, she was guilty. In nineteen eighty three, cases of moms murdering or harming their children weren't as pervasive in the media. Do you remember Susan Smith who killed her two boys in a car for a man, And Andrea Yates who had a psychotic break she killed her five young children. Yeah. In nineteen eighty three, I think people were more apt to believe that a bushy haired stranger attacked them than the mother. Well, because there was also this stranger danger thing like in the seventies and eighties, where people were freaked out about strangers abducting children and killing them and things like that. So yeah, I could see that. To make a strong case, prosecutors understood the importance of the timeline. They needed to show that Diane had time to shoot the children and dispose of the gun before she arrived at the hospital. On the evening of May nineteenth, Diana and the three children drove out to her friend Heather's house to see her horse.

18:14 Heather was fairly certain they had left her house at nine forty five pm. Diane got to the ear at ten thirty pm. That left a forty five minute window. From Heather's house to the ear was twelve and a half miles. A man named Joseph Inman was driving on Old Mohawk Road late on the evening of May nineteenth, around ten fifteen. He recalled that he had to slow down to a crawl when he got behind a small red car with Arizona license plates. The car, he estimated was driving between five and seven miles per hour. Remember, earlier, Diane said that she had driven like a lunatic to get to the hospital. He drove behind the red car he thought was a Nissan or a Toyota for two to three miles, he couldn't pass because Old Mohawk rode as curvy. When he finally reached it straightaway he passed. He didn't recall the car driving erratically and he couldn't see who was driving. Interesting, if Joseph Inman would have happened upon the scene a minute or two earlier, he would have seen the shooting. Yeah, that's a good point, And I was thinking back to in part one you talked about when they came into the er. Somebody noted that the blood had coagulated like more than you would have thought it would if you know they had been just shot a few minutes earlier. So it seems like Diane was not in a rush to get to the hospital. It's unbelievable that she took this time.

19:40 And remember that her wound, she took the time to wrap it, and the nurse, not the nurse, but Judy, the er receptionist, noted that the towel was kind of folded neatly and placed on her arm carefully, and the kid's wounds weren't attended to at all. Diane did need to stop her wound from bleeding, but it just seemed like she took a lot of care in protecting her own wound, and not so much for her children. Here, Diane began holding press conferences to air her grievances against the police and the district attorney. She gave dozens of interviews to reporters and would call a press conference anytime she wanted and the media would show up. She said quote, If I'm guilty, why don't they arrest me? Diane remained the number one suspect. The public wasn't sure of her guilt or innocence, but they were captivated by her. It was clear that as confident and comfortable as Diane appeared in front of the cameras, she was still nervous about the continuing investigation.

20:37 Law enforcement loved these interviews where Diane talked NonStop and revealed herself to them. It gave them more to work with. Detective Doug Welch said quote, I have used the term verbal vomit when talking about Diane because she talked a lot too much for her own good. I think that's one of the things that ended up hurting her case. She didn't know when to shut up. When this man shot my daughter, my first reaction was to snap back to my childhood to the pain that had happened to me back then, my marriage, my entrapment by society. This man was bigger than me, He was stronger than me, He had more power because he had a gun. And I stood there and I looked at Christy reaching and the blood that just kept gushing out of her mouth, And what do you do? Everybody says you sure were lucky. Well, I don't feel very lucky. I couldn't tie my damn shoes for about two months. It is very painful. It is still painful. The scar is going to be there forever. I'm gonna remember that night for the rest of my life, whether I want to or not.

21:41 I don't think I was very lucky. I think my kids were lucky. If I had been shot the way they were, we all would have died. Oh it's bad as horrible. Oh, she couldn't tie her shoes, poor Diane. But her kids were lucky. We could go on for days about how horrible she is. But she had the verbal vomit and she couldn't stop herself from talking. Yeah, I can imagine law enforcement would have loved that. On YouTube, there are a lot of her interviews and they're compelling, It's hard to stop watching. Diane called the Maricopa County Sheriff's office to rat out Steve, her ex husband, for the arson attempt on their old trailer and a car theft he had been involved in. She was angry that he'd said so much to police. Wow, do you remember the arson attempt on the trailer? Yes, they had tried to burn up her previous trailer, right, and they got an insurance payout for it. Da Fred Huge could feel the public turning on him and his investigation. He needed to make an arrest soon. Washington State had a strict speedy trial rule. The state had sixty days to build a case after an arrest. Christy wasn't ready to be questioned, and Fred needed to find solid proof to arrest Diane.

22:59 By June's sixteenth, Christy was slowly getting her words back. Paula Krogdall had become a regular visitor to Christy, and she began to trust her. Paula gently questioned Christy. She learned that Diane regularly spanked or slapped all of the children. She told them that they were bad and it was their fault. Christy was also able to communicate that on the night of May nineteenth. There were two guns in the trunk of the car. She had seen no strangers that night. When asked who did the shooting, she said hesitantly, I think I think, mom, that's poor baby. Yeah, and also I wanted to talk about the They only had sixty days to make a case after an arrest. That's so hard. Yeah, well, I guess that means you really have to be careful when you're going to make an arrest. Well, exactly, that's pretty much ready. Yeah, that's why they were so hesitant. On June twenty second, Christy was released from the hospital. A nice couple, Evelyn and Ray Slavin, who were seasoned foster parents, welcomed her and Danny into their home. So Christy went from in a month from I mean she was essentially dead to being released from the hospital month. So that was great. Yeah, but her arm was still paralyzed. Evelyn said Christy was quote very, very fragile, both physically and emotionally. Christy observed us for a long time. She needed to be sure that we were the same all the time, that we wouldn't be nice to her one day and then angry the next. It took her quite a while to trust us.

24:29 End quote. Totally understandable, Oh for sure. Diane was not allowed visitation, nor were her parents or other family members. They actually had no idea where Christy was living. The Slavens brought Christy to see Danny in the hospital once a week. Slowly, she began to trust them and her nightmares lessened. In July, Nick called Diane. He was working with the police and recording the call, but Diane was so happy to hear from him that she wasn't suspicious. He told her he knew that she had a twenty two pistol, that he had seen it when he was helping her pack. Diane denied it and claimed that she'd returned the gun to Steve. Nick tried to get her to confess, but she was too smart for that. She told him she loved him, but not enough to shoot her kids for him. The same month, investigators tricked Diane into coming to the police station by telling her they wanted her to look at some mugshots, but in reality, they wanted another go at questioning her. A memory came back to Diane while she was at the police station. She said she was terrified when the last thing the gunman said was her name. She had just been shot and she was still outside her car when he breathed her name and threatened to kill her if she told. She said she knew who shot her children, and she wasn't going to tell the police who it was because she couldn't trust them to do the job right. She ran from the police station, but called a few minutes later. She said, Quote, just because I tell you exactly what happened that night, that doesn't mean you can prove he did it. It's a losing battle. I give up. If you guys want to throw me in

26:02 jail, have at it. I Steve wins this time. This is the ultimate. I quit. I'm not going to fight him anymore. He won. Goodbye. Quote. So she implying that Steve shot the children. I don't know what she means here. If she like that, Steve would get custody of the children. Mm. Yeah, maybe none of it makes any sense though. It's really not a cohesive story. She's telling you, well, no, and it's changing all the time. Yeah, like drastically. Yeah. On September sixth, nineteen eighty three, Danny was finally released from the hospital. He moved in with the Slavens. Christy and Danny were very happy to be together again. Danny was confined to a wheelchair. He had no feeling of movement below his chest. His doctors doubted his condition would ever improve. That fall, Christie started third grade. All things considered, the children were doing well. The love and consistency that they're foster parents showed them helped them feel more secure than they ever had in their short lives. Christy and Danny were both seeing a therapist. The prosecution needed Christie to testify that Diane was the shooter on the night of May nineteenth. It was the only way the state had a case against Diane. The therapist was making progress with Christie, but he knew he had several more months of work ahead with her before she could trust him completely. She was still struggling with her speech.

27:27 Steve came to see the children in late September. He was allowed unsupervised visitation with them. Steve felt empathy for Diane. He called her and asked her if she wanted to see the children. She jumped at the opportunity. He told her she couldn't talk to the children, just view them discreetly from a distance. While they were at the park. Diane claimed that Christie saw her and ran to her and smothered her with hugs and kisses. Diane went to Steve's hotel that afternoon, where he was staying with the children. He needed Diane to sign papers to get him full custody, so he led her into the hotel room, which violated the court order that prohibited Diane from seeing the children. Steve being a full blown idiot editorial commentary on your part there, I mean he let Diane take Christy for a ride in her car. Yeah, there's a full blown idiot move. Diane was gone with Christy for several hours. She said they went to the park and then she took her to her parents' house. Steve hadn't let Diane take Danny, but Diane let it be known that she didn't believe Danny was paralyzed. She knew she could make him better. The children were told to tell no one that they had seen Diane, and they kept that secret. After the visit with Diane, the therapist felt he had lost a lot of ground with Christy. He had lost months of progress. A few weeks later, in an angry, drunken haze, Diane wrote a letter to Nick telling him that she'd visited with her children.

28:55 She wanted to prevent Steve from getting custody of the children. By writing the letter to Nick, she knew he'd inform law enforcement. If Diane had contacted them, they might not have believed her. We'll be back. After a break, Diane became depressed and started going to bar solo and drinking more. She couldn't see her children. She'd found out that Nick had reunited happily with his wife and was helping the police, and she couldn't find anyone who wanted to sleep with her now that she was suspected of shooting her children. But then she met Matt Jensen. I should say that Matt Jensen is a pseudonym that Anne Rule gave to this man. We don't know what his real name was, Okay. Diane was lonely and bored and became obsessed with him.

29:45 They only dated for about three weeks before he became uncomfortable with her. He moved twenty miles away and didn't tell Diane his new address or phone number. But Diane worked for the post office, so I would think she would be able to She was probably pretty good at fighting people's addresses, right. Diane soon discovered, to her delight that she was pregnant, and remember, being pregnant is Diane's happy place. Here's a clip of Diane with reporter Anne Bradley from an episode of twenty twenty. I got pregnant because I miss Christy and I miss Danny, and I miss Cheryl so much. I'm never going to see Cheryl on Earth again. You can't replace children, but she can replace the effect that they give you. And they give me love, they give me satisfaction, they give me stability, They give me a reason to live and a reason to be happy. And that's gone. They took it from me. But children are so easy to conceive. Oh boy, I'm not a fan of Diane. Diane's due date was July seventh, nineteen eighty four. Diane and Steve were both charged with contempt of court for a violation of the court order regarding visitation of Christy and Danny. On December ninth, nineteen eighty three, they appeared for Judge Greg Foot. He accused Diane of visiting Christie only to threaten her from testifying against her. The courtroom was shocked when Diane's attorney let it slip that Diane couldn't go to jail because she was pregnant. She was given a one year suspended sentence. Christie again began to

31:18 make progress in her therapy sessions. Her therapist asked her if she could write the name of the shooter on a slip of paper and place it in a sealed envelope. He promised her that he wouldn't read it unless she gave her permission. At the end of each session, he told Christie she could put the envelope into the fire to burn if she wanted to, and each week before she left, she'd watched the envelope burn. I was pretty smart of the therapist. The DA had little to know budget left in December, but Fred Hugy was able to scrape a little money together to hire famed policeman Pierce Brooks. He was captain of the LAPD's homicide unit for over ten years, known for his groundbreaking work on profile serial killers. He actually coined the term.

32:02 The book and movie The Onion Field is based on his work. Oh I Love that movie. A former colleague said he's the closest person to Sherlock Holmes, that he'd ever met. Diane was looking for a fresh start in nineteen eighty four. She said the previous year had been a bummer year. She lost her child. Yeah, that's a bumba's She began to attend church regularly for the first time since she'd been a child. She went several times a week and joined some women's groups. I'm sure they were thrilled to have Diane in her company. On January tenth, on what would have been Cheryl's eighth birthday, Diane placed a note in the personal section of the newspaper. It read, Happy Birther, Cheryl Lynn Downs January tenth, nineteen seventy six to May nineteenth, nineteen eighty three. We loved you very much. Jesus loved you too. He took you to heaven when you were only seven.

32:52 We miss you, Mom, Grandma and Grandpa. It's beautiful that bizarre. Yeah. Investigators and child psychologists continue to work closely with Christy. Three. Anatomically correct, life sized dolls were created in the images of Christy, Cheryl, and Danny, dressed in their old clothes. They first gave the dolls to Christy and Danny to bring home and play with to get them more comfortable with the dolls. Days later, they made an imaginary car out of two couches. Christie put the dolls in the same positions that children had been in the car on the night of the shooting. They asked Christy to recreate what happened that night, and she then pretended to shoot the three dolls in the car. Law enforcement knew Christie was getting stronger and was probably soon going to be ready to testify. Carl Peterson was Christie's main psychologist. He had her ride a list of people that she felt safe and unsafe with in her life.

33:46 Cheryl Danny, Evelyn Slaven, Ray Slaven, her foster parents, Fred Hugy, and doctor Peterson were all in this save column, and the unsafe column were two names, Mom and Dad. Sad So sad. Diane wasn't doing well. She had been diagnosed with an ulcer. Living at her parents' house was killing her. She missed her kids, and another hearing regarding custody wasn't going to be held for another sixty days. She continued to go to church, and investigators actually had placed a locator on her car without her knowledge to know her whereabouts. But things were about to get much worse for Diane. The grand jury had been meeting secretly for nine months. In February nineteen eighty four, they handed down a secret indictment for Diane. She was charged with one count of murder, two counts of attempted murder, and two counts of first degree assault. There was no death penalty in Oregon at the time, and there were no degrees of murder. There was just murder. On February twenty seventh, Diane and Wes had a horrible argument. Wes her father.

34:52 He demanded she move out of the house, and in her anger, Diane blurted out that Wes molested her when she was a child. Will A Dean. Her mom had never heard this before, she didn't believe it. Diane had no friends and no place to go. She went to a bar and sat at a table in the back and wrote in her diary. Later that night, she snuck into her parents' house to get some sleep. The next morning, Diane left her parents house early to avoid an awkward running with her father. When she arrived at the post office where her shift, at seven am, the police were there to arrest her. They spared her handcuffs, but read Diane her Miranda rights and took her to jail. At least she had a place to sleep that night. Her bail was set at seventy five thousand dollars, but no one posted it. A search warrant was served on the Frederickson's home and Diane's car at her arraignment. The following day, Diane pleaded not guilty, her bail was revoked. The trial was set to begin on May eighth, nineteen eighty four. In two months, the media took some photos of Diane, who was now visibly pregnant, and the public, who still supported Diane, was outraged on her behalf. To prepare the case in two months was a herculean task for both sides. There was a mountain of evidence and over fifty witnesses to organize and prepare. Fred Hugy and his team worked eighteen hours a day, seven days a week. In a pre trial motion, Fred tried to limit the defense's use of the bushy haired stranger. There had been multiple sightings of people who matched the description, but no viable suspect had emerged. There's a lot of people out there with bushy

36:27 hair. There really is. Judge Foot allowed the defense to present only two potential bushy haired stranger suspects. Wait do you see the sketch? Oh stranger? Wait. Media attended the trial in droves, stacked shoulder to shoulder in the cramped courtroom, with their recording devices in their laps. No cameras were allowed. The jury consisted of nine women and three men, with three alternates. They were mostly parents and middle aged or older. The county could not afford to sequester them, but they were cautioned not to watch or read anything about the trial. The trial was expected to last as long as two months, bringing it very close to Diane's due date. Diane's team implored her to be less expressive. She wore every emotion and mood on her face and often appeared smug or imperious. She dressed in feminine maternity dresses with lace collars and bows in an attempt to soften her image. A week into the trial, the jury took a trip to see the sight of the shooting on Old Mohawk Road and then to see Diane's red Nissan Pulsar. Among the first witnesses was Judy Patterson, the receptionist from the er who had sat with Diane on May nineteenth, nearly a year to the date, Judy recalled Diane saying, quote, are they dead yet? Unquote, with no emotion, just are they dead yet? A doctor testified that Diane told him quote, I know that Christy has sustained brain damage, and I don't want you to sustain her life

37:58 unquote. Doctor also said that Christie was as close to death as anyone he had ever seen without dying. That her health rebounded was a miracle. In one incredibly uncomfortable moment, Hungry Like a Wolf was played, the song that played in the Red Nissan on the night of the shooting. Diane bopped her head, tapped her foot, and mouthed the lyrics, seeming to enjoy the moment. The jurors and the rest of the courtroom watched in shock at her outrageous behavior. On May fifteenth, nine year old Christie entered the courtroom. She looked sweet in a blue dress with white lace around the collar. Christi and Diane both cried when they saw each other. I can't imagine there was a dry eye in the courtroom when they saw the small wounded child enter the courtroom, her right arm still paralyzed. Christie was brave and determined, but emotional. She cried often during her testimony, at times sobbing, her face red from emotion. There were no cameras in the courtroom, but we have the train, so we are going to read the transcript of Christie's testimony.

39:04 Do you want to be the prosecutor? I will play the part of the prosecutor. I will be Christie. And Christy couldn't say the word yes yet from her speech therapy, and she had asked the judge if it was okay if she said yeah. So there's a lot of yeahs and okay. On the day this happened, you went to school and you came home from school. Do you recall that? Yeah? Whose house did you go to? My grandparents? Did you eat there? Yeah? And after you ate? Where did you go? Then to my mom's house, back to her apartment where you were living? Yeah? Did you go out that night? Yeah? Did you go for a ride? Yeah? Who went with you? My mom, Cheryl and Danny went. And do you remember the car?

39:47 Yeah? What color was the car? Black and red? Can you tell us where you went? Do you remember where you went to? Yeah? Where my mom's friend's house? And was that in the city or was it in the country. Were there buildings tall buildings or was there a lot of grass? A lot of grass? Do you remember what you did when you got there? Yeah? What did you do? We went out and petted the horse. Did you give the horse food? Yeah? What was your mom doing when you were petting the horse and giving it food? She was talking to her friend. Do you remember her friend's name, Yeah, Heather. When you left Heather's do you remember if it was light out or dark? It was dark? Who was in the car when you left Heather's house?

40:29 My mom, Cheryl and Danny and me too. Do you remember if there was any music playing in the car? Yeah? Was that from the radio or was it from the tape? Tape? And do you remember there was a time when the car stopped? Yeah? And here Christy begins to cry. When the car stopped, did you see any other people around? No? Did you see any person standing in the road? No? When the car stopped, what did your mom do? She got out and she pulled the lever that went to the trunk. I'm going to show you a picture here. It's called State's number three thirty five. Is that the lever you're talking about Yes, after your mom pushed the lever that went out to the trunk, were you able to see her do anything after that? I didn't look at the back. Okay, did you see her come back into the car? Yeah? What did you see? Then? She kneeled down, and here Christy began to sob, burying her face in her hands.

41:24 Her sobs were echoed in the courtroom as spectators broke into tears too. Diane turned her head away. What did you see? You told us? She leaned across the seat. Yeah, what happened? Then? Diane was crying. Christy put her hand to her face as if to block out the memory. She shot Cheryl and you saw that happen? Yeah? Was the music still playing? Yeah? Can you tell us what that was? Christy didn't answer. Maybe I'll come back to that. Do you remember what happened after you saw Cheryl get shot? Yeah? What happened? Then she leaned over to the backseat and she shot Danny. What happened then? What happened after Danny got shot? She stand it up and went to the back of the seat on the Do you remember when you got shot? Yeah? Who shot you? My mom? Do you remember the music that was playing. Can you just not think of it right now? I can't think of it.

42:22 Do you remember what happened after you got shot? No, I'm going to put before you State's number three thirty four. Have you seen that before? Yeah? What is that? It's a unicorn? Where did that come from? My mom bought it for us. That was before you got shot. Yeah. If I said the name of that song that was playing, do you think you'd remember it? Yeah? Is it Hungry like the Wolf? Yeah, no doubt about that. No, Christy, has anyone ever told you to lie about this? No? What you've said here is the truth. Yeah, Christy, do you still love your mom? Yeah? Can you believe how brave that little girl wash? That's really amazing. I got a little emotional there. You are like a method actress and character really taken that to heart. I just can't believe her strength and the pressure that was put upon her. Yeah, that's a really hard position for a little girl to hear her mom. I was surprised that Diane stayed seated in the courtroom.

43:20 I would have thought that they either would have done it by deposition and or had Diane leave the courtroom. Yeah, strong little girl. During cross examination, Diane's attorney, Jim Jagger, a former prosecutor, wasn't unkind but fired questions quickly to portray Christie as confused. She answered most questions, but at times remained silent and didn't answer. He kept her on the witness stand too long she was exhausted. On May twenty first, a styrofoam mock up of Diane's car was brought into the courtroom with the life sized dolls of the children. The prosecution knew a visual aid was imperative to their case. The car was painted light blue. Red paint was used to indicate the blood in and outside of the car. Fred Hughgy demonstrated how Diane had shot the children from outside the car. All of the gunshots were estimated to be at close range, none more than a foot away. Nick Knickerbacker walked into the courtroom the next day and took the stand. Every person in the courtroom turned to see him enter. They were dying to see what he looked like. He was bearded and handsome. He was pretty handsome, was he? I mean, not like you know, but yeah, good looking guy. Diane tried to hide her emotions. She needed to act like she didn't care that the love of her life was in the same room as her for the first time in months. Nick said he was relieved when Diane moved out to Oregon.

44:45 He testified to seeing the twenty two pistol in the trunk of her car when he'd helped her pack for the move, in a devastating blow to Diane. When asked about the rose tattoo, he said he'd gotten it after a drunken night. Diane had been begging him for months to get a matching rose tattoo. He got the tattoo, but didn't add Diane's name. He told the court that he had since added a name to the tattoo. It now said sweet Charlene under the tattoo. Oh, okay, you don't remember, like Diane had a tattoo with Nick's name underneath. Yeah, I can't imagine how that must have like just shattered her when she heard that, When Diane had to pretend like, oh, it doesn't bother me at all that he's here. In the courtroom, MM twenty five audio tapes were played. Some were police interrogations, some were made by Diane recording herself, and the rest were the recorded calls between her and Nick. Diane cringed visibly as her declarations of love were made to Nick. It took days for all of the tapes to be played. The prosecution directly examined thirty three witnesses and presented over five hundred pieces of evidence. They rested their case. The first witness for the defense was Diane. She talked about her childhood and how she hadn't allowed to express herself and how she'd been molested by her father. Her parents were not present during Diane's testimony. They weren't allowed into the courtroom until they had testified days later. Diane was on the witness stand for four and a half days.

46:15 She told her whole life story. She laughed, cried, and at times became angry and indignant. The defense claimed that the ballistic evidence had been planted and that Christie's testimony had been coerced and rehearsed. I always think I wanted to be chosen for jury duty. Yeah, but to think about what these poor people had to set through for weeks and weeks, and all those tapes being played, and the it would be really hard to pay attention and focus for that long. Absolutely, the jury began deliberations on the afternoon of Thursday, June fourteenth, nineteen eighty four. No one knew what to expect. They worked until ten pm the first night, and all day Friday and all day Saturday. Baby Watch was also in effect. Diane looked to be due any minute. Finally, at twelve twenty am on Sunday, a verdict was reached. So these people were determined. Wow, everyone gathered in the courtroom to hear the verdict at one am. I didn't realize that they would do that. Oh, I wouldn't think they would. I should mention here that Diane's attorney had heard whispers of the jury had made their decision quickly on four of the counts, but there was a couple accounts that they just couldn't agree on. Okay, what do you think the verdict was? I think guilty.

47:38 I think there's enough evidence to find her guilty. Diane was found guilty on five counts. She showed little emotion at her sentencing. Diane said, quote, I would like to say that I came before this court, was tried and found guilty because I am a law abiding citizen. I'll do my time. I care about the community. They can't let their guard down. The killers are still out there. I love my kids, Christy's my best friend. Danny cried for mommy in the hospital. Most important, Cheryl died. I will serve my time, and then I'll find that killer and bring him in. End quote. It's like ojay. She's gonna search every golf course until she finds the killer. Judge Foot sentenced Diane to life plus fifty years in prison. He said, quote, the court hopes the defendant will never again be free. I've come as close to that as possible. End quote. She served her time at the Oregon Women's Correctional Center in Salem, a medium security prison. Steve Downs said that he thinks Diane deserved the death penalty. He said, quote, there are not too many people who have done worse than she has. I'm no angel, but she needs to be eliminated from off this earth. Wow. End quote. Diane worked in the prison kitchen. She was compliant for the most part. Most inmates kept their distance. She was allowed to take college courses, which she seemed to enjoy a great deal. Remember, she really wanted to be a doctorate. She graduated in nineteen eighty seven with an associate's degree in general studies. In November

49:12 nineteen eighty four, a twenty two semi automatic Ruger pistol was seized in a drug raid in Paris, California. The gun had the serial number of the gun police believed that had been used by Diane in the shooting. When the drug dealer was asked where he'd acquired the gun, he said in Phoenix in nineteen eighty one, around Christmas. Remember the shooting took place in nineteen eighty three. Bullets from the gun were analyzed and it was found not to be a match for the weapon used in the shooting of the Downs children. Steve Down said he had stolen a twenty two pistol from a friend named Billy Proctor. Billy had forgotten that he had owned two Ruger pistols and had given the police the wrong serial number, so the police had been chasing the wrong gun for a year and a half. Oh Man, However, it didn't make any difference. When given the correct serial number, the gun was still found to be missing and it's never been found. That's too bad. So the baby was born ten days after the verdict was read. Diane named her Amy Elizabeth. In the delivery room. She was able to hold her for four hours before she was taken away. Diane didn't cry or show any emotion.

50:22 Hours after delivering the baby, she was returned to jail. I don't have any empathy for Diane, but I know a lot of women end up giving birth in jail and it's just horrible. Yeah, be really hard, and your body just isn't meant to give up a baby. Yeah, you're producing milk and you have these hormones, and yeah, it's a difficult situation. A couple named Jackie and Chris Babcock adopted the baby, who they named Rebecca or Becky. The babcops wanted to give Becky a life free from the stigma of being the biological daughter of Diane Downs. She was a happy, care for you child. Diane had no idea where Becky and her parents lived. We'll be back after a break. Christy and Danny continued to live with the Slavens after the trial. In nineteen eighty six, Joanne and Fred Hugy, the DA and Diane's case, adopted them both. Steve downs knew Christy and Danny were better off without him and relinquished his parental rights. The court likely wouldn't have let him have custody after his trouble with the law. Anyway, he has had no contact with them. Christy and Danny never saw anyone from their previous lives. Sadly, Danny never regained the use of his legs.

51:39 Once asked what she would do if she was ever released, Diane said, quote, I'll probably show up on the DA's doorstep and ask if I can come in and hug my kids. Unquote. Diane was happy her children were there with the DA. She said Christie would someday be able to tell him the truth about what happened on the night of May nineteenth and clear her name. Oh you had to take over that part because I started crying, because that's really emotional. Yeah, very sweet. On Saturday, July eleventh, nineteen eighty seven, Diane Downs escaped from the Oregon Women's Correctional Center. She went out to the yard early that morning. Underneath her jeans and blouse, she donned two extra pairs of underwear, an extra bra, extra socks, and an extra shirt. She wore leather gloves and a beanie. Remember it's July. She scaled the prisons a sixteen foot chain link fence. While guards were preoccupied, she cushioned the top of the barbed wire fence using her coat.

52:37 She landed safely on the grass, which is crazy sixteen feet high. She hid under a truck on the prison grounds until she felt the coast was clear. The blouse she was mooring was found torn near the fence. Diane hitched a ride with a couple who recognized her, but still drove her to tow Serious Yeah. Oh. The parents of Christie, Danny, and Becky were all concerned for their children's safety. There was no telling where Diane would head. The Knickerbockers were warned, as was Anne Rule. So had Anne Rule already written the book by this point. The book came out in nineteen eighty seven. There were alleged sightings of Diane all over the country. Fred Hugey slept in a chair near his front door with a loaded rifle on his lap. The Babcock's hand was forced to keep Becky safe. They needed to tell friends, family, and Becky's daycare that Diane Downs was her biological mother, a secret that they'd kept to themselves. They were terrified that Diane would find Becky and kidnap or harm her. Diane was found eleven days later at the home of Wayne Seaffer, just a mile from the prison. So everyone's thinking, oh, she's you know, she's in New Jersey, she's you know, she's all these other places. But no, she was just a mile down the road. Her former cellmate, Louise, Wayne's wife had made a map to her house. Wayne said he was nervous during Diane's time with him, but chose not to turn her in. He and Diane both said they fell in love with each other over those eleven days. Diane was caught after a police officer discovered a piece of paper in her cell. When he

54:10 examined it closely, he saw writing indentations from a pencil from the previous sheet. When he lightly stated the paper, a map was revealed. The police arrived to find Diane naked in bed with Wayne. They had to coerce her out of the house. She emerged wearing a large man's shirt and boxer shorts and I have pictures that you will want to see of okay. They assumed she was trying to get pregnant again. Diane claimed that she'd escaped to look for the bushy haired stranger herself because the police weren't looking hard enough. An additional five years was added to Diane's sentence, which really isn't that bad. It's worth a try. Wayne was given probation. He called Diane the most honest woman he'd ever known. He wanted to marry her, although he was still married to Louise. Diane soemmy boy. Poor Louise was devastated, but at least after Diane's return to prison, she was put in solitary confinement and she no longer had to room with her Oh boy, Wayne hired a private investigator to find the real killer. Here's a clip of Diane talking to Oprah about her escape. In addition to that, you were always sleeping with everybody else's husband, always preferred married man. And even while you were in prison, you befriend and inmate. She tells you about her husband who lives six blocks down the road. You escape from prison and you go move in with the inmate's husband. Shit, that does not sound like a night. That sounds good. That sounds good, But the fact that she and her husband

55:43 had not seen each other in five years, They hadn't slept together in five and a half years, and I just wanted you to explain that because it doesn't sound like you look like the girl next door, but the girl next door looks like she's turned bad. Get her Oprah. Diane was then sent to a maximum security prison for women in Clifton, New Jersey, and I should say the prison that she escaped from. They knew that they had to make modifications, and they did those after Diane escaped. Like they put some more evil looking barbed wire on top of the fence, and then they put like cement at the bottom of the fence, so if you escaped, you would his cement. Becky Babcock, the baby Diane had been pregnant with during the trial, grew up with her parents and sister Jenny and Bend, Oregon.

56:36 Jenny is two years older and was also adopted. Here's Becky from a twenty twenty episode called My Mother's Sins talking about her childhood. Growing up in ben was amazing. My parents were always there. It was honestly picture perfect. We're constantly on the go. Mount Bachelor was right by, so we skied all the time and hiked. Oh my dad taught me to ride a bike. My mom taught me to ride horses. I was just like any other kid, and we were just like any other family. I knew my entire life that I was adopted, but I know it. About eight years old, I started asking questions about the adoption. There was just a little part of me that was searching for that blood tie. In a sense, I never had questions about my biological dad. It was mainly about my biological mom. You know, what did she look like? What did she do?

57:37 Becky's mom had told her that her biological mother had blonde hair and green eyes and she was in jail, but gave her few other details. Her parents were as evasive as possible while respecting Becky's curiosity. When Becky was a young teenager, she discovered that Diane was her biological mother after she'd tricked her babysitter into telling her. She went to Barnes and Noble and found a copy of Anne Rule Small Sacrifices. She opened the book and saw a picture of her birth mother for the first time. I just want to know, Well, how did her babysitter know who her chickle mother was? Well? Remember after Diana escaped, like, oh okay, several people had to worried about her finding them got It frightened Becky to see pictures of this woman who had killed one of her siblings and attempted to kill two others. She wondered if she could be like this monstrous woman. She was too young to process the information. When she was sixteen, Becky's boyfriend printed a copy of the movie's Small Sacrifices. It shook Becky to her core and altered the trajectory of her life. She was caught in a downward spiral of sex, drugs, and alcohol. She moved out of her parents loving home and dropped out of high school. After Becky discovered she shared DNA with Diane, she thought her destiny was predetermined and felt closer to her. In two thousand and two, Becky, seventeen, became pregnant. It was important to Becky to be a good mom. She wasn't ready. She struggled find antley, and her son, Christian, was often left in the care of others. In two thousand and six, Becky gave birth to another son. Her situation hadn't changed, and

59:08 she decided to put him up for adoption. It was the hardest decision I've ever had, and I put him up for adoption because I loved him, not because I didn't want him holding him. It was heartbreaking because I knew that I couldn't keep holding him. It just it takes a piece of you, and I wanted to connect with somebody. It made me think about Diane, and I actually wanted to reach out to her. I wanted to know how she felt. I wanted to know if she loved me, if she wanted me, if she connected with me before she had to give me up for adoption. I had dated a guy who took an interest in the story, and it actually tracked down Diane where she was in prison. She had given me the address. I decided to reach out to her. The first letter I wrote Diane, I must have written a hundred times. I was nervous, it was exciting, it was scary. I wanted to relate to her, not as a mother because I had a mother, just as somebody that felt the pain and emptiness that I felt in that time. I know you're screaming in your head, no, Becky, don't do it. No.

1:00:35 I mean, I can totally understand her situation. It's tough. Diane responded quickly to Becky's letter, but she wasn't sure she wanted to open the letter, but she did. The letter started, Dear Rebecca, I received your letter this evening and wanted to write back immediately, but wasn't exactly certain how to begin. You look like me, same chin. Don't you hate it? You're beautiful? That proves it right there. End quote. Diane and Becky started a pleasant correspondence, but it quickly escalated. As things often do with Diane. The letters became dark, strange, and unhinged, filled with conspiracy theories. Quote just know that someone very powerful has been watching over you for your whole life for me end quote. In a twelve page letter to Becky, Diane claimed her innocence. Once again, Diane got mean too.

1:01:24 Quote I don't know who you are, Rebecca, but you aren't our daughter. Diane accused Becky of being part of a conspiracy that wanted to harm her. After a month of correspondence, only it just took a month for it to get ugly, Becky told Diane not to write to her anymore. Diane sent her a last letter, telling Becky that Christian would grow up to be a serial killer. She said, quote, you are a piece of work, Rebecca. If you love your little boy, you will take him away from there. End quote. Becky said quote A part of me had wanted to know what she thought of me, but when she told me she did, it wasn't what I wanted. I didn't want a murderer to love me. End quote. Becky met Anne Rule to learn about her father.

1:02:07 Anne was the only person other than Diane who could tell her about him, and swore to Diane that she would never tell and she honored that agreement. But she did tell Becky that her father was kind and warm, unlike her mother. And we still don't know who this man is. No. Becky has struggled with her identity and gone through some hard times, but today she uses meditation and yoga to ease her mind. She has strong, smart, and determined to live her life without stigma or shame. Becky works as a childhood behavioral health coordinator. And we wished the best for Becky and her son. Yeah, for sure. In nineteen eighty nine, Diane wrote a book with the help of a ghostwriter called Diane Down's Best Kept Secret. It was eighty dollars on Amazon. It's not in print. I couldn't access any of it, but I am very curious, but the dedication reads, I dedicate this book to all my children, because they have lost more than anyone else.

1:03:02 We hit our faces and protect our hearts with the wrongs we have truly embraced, and there is no time to fear the horrors which others have imagined for us. The book sounds like an awkward airing of grievances told from the viewpoint of a malignant narcissist. Diane claims to be looking for the bushy haired man who shot her children, and goes as far as blaming a serial killer for the shooting. But then you have to wonder why Diane was not shot too. Right. Here's another quote from the book. Christy and Daniel may have been harboring self deprecating thoughts which would later manifest into suicide attempts because they feel that if their own mother thought that they were worth nothing, they must be indeed worthless. I fight every day of my life to prove to Christy and Daniel that I didn't hurt them, so they will be able to hold their heads up. They have a right to know I love them now and have loved them always. To find the real killer, Diane just needs to look in an air and stop lying to herself and her children. Yeah, the fact that she has kept this straight up for forty years is crazy.

1:04:06 Yea. At this point, we've done a few cases like this. Jeffrey McDonald comes to mind, like these people that have been in prison for thirty plus years and just continue with the lie. I don't know how you do that. I guess you just I feel like a lot of them have convinced themselves exactly. That's what I was going to say. Diane, now sixty eight, has had three parole hearings, in the latest in twenty twenty, when she was once against denied freedom. I can't see a scenario where she will ever be released from prison. She resides in Chowchilla, California, at the Central California Woman's Facility. I'm an interesting side note, Diane would never deliver Penthouse or Playboy when she carried mails. I can't imagine as a postal care. You can be like, yeah, I'm not Wes. Diane's father maintain a website for years that claims Diane's innocence and it's still up there.

1:05:01 And all these things that we're mentioning, we will post links to. Years later, Christie was asked why a classmate who shot her and her siblings and she had no idea. She said she had no idea, which is one of the things that wes Is pointed to in his website. Well, if Christie says she doesn't know, then Diane was diagnosed with three personality disorders to no one surprised, histrionic personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder, and anti social personality disorder. These were diagnosed while she was going through a pre trial testing to see if she was eligible to stand trial. Markers of histrionic personality disorder include attention seeking behavior and discomfort when not the center of attention and appropriately provocative behavior, tendency to think relationships are closer than they are in reality, and manipulation. Histrionic personality disorder can be the result of a difficult childhood and prevent the individual from forming healthy interpersonal relationships. Markers of antisocial personality disorder include the ability to be charming and manipulative, a lack of empathy or remorse, and a disregard for authority. Individuals with narcissistic personality disorder display an inflated sense of self importance, a strong desire to be admired and complimented, and a fragile ego. The three personality disorders overlap in a lot of ways, and they exist on a spectrum. All the descriptions you read sound pretty bag. You

1:06:33 sound spot on, don't they. Christy and Danny have chosen to live private lives and have never spoken publicly. Steve Downs. Several people in this case have chosen to remain as private as possible, Steve Downs and Fred huge among them. Christy, we know, is married with children and lives in Oregon. One of her children is named after her sister, Cheryl. And I don't know much about Danny other than he very intelligent. I think he's skipped some despite all the trauma. I think he skipped some grades in school, and he is a computer whiz. At the top of the first episode, we talked about Anne Rule in her book Small Sacrifices, which I read and I recommend it was a great resource. Here's a clip of Diane addressing Anne Rule about her book, what do you I take issue? I take issue with much of it? Okay, okay, what do you take issue with?

1:07:27 Well? She considers it a true story. And she's quoted me all through the book and tells the reader how I'm feeling, what I'm thinking at various times all through the book. Yet she's never interviewed me. How does she do that? How does she justify that being a true story? Okay, Anne, how do you justify that? Well? Diane, I'm sure you remember my coming to jail and interviewing you twenty minutes. Twenty minutes, Anne, and I also sat in the courtroom while you testified for four days and told your entire life, from your childhood abuse, through your marriage, through your multiple affairs, how you felt about it. And at one point you said to the prosecutor, mister Hughy, would you like me to explain how I met all my lovers and how our affairs were carried out? And he said, no, that wouldn't be necessary. He did, and then you went ahead and told it anyway, Diane, which for a writer, you helped me a lot. In your testimony. You say that, you say and that that Diane is a writer's dream because she keeps diaries and written diaries and tape diaries, or she has kept written diaries and letters and letters and I have several letters that Diane wrote to me and several Anne, several four I consider four we're talking to They're fourteen pages long, two of them are, and there they were stretching the truth. So you're you're deciding that fourteen pages equals four letters. And the fact is, and there are a

1:08:59 few quotes in book that can be attributed to my testimony, but only a few. Where did you get the rest of them? Diane? Maybe, Okay, maybe that's a hard question. Maybe it's unfair to ask. No, it's not. No, my dear, it's not a hard question. You've got to let me answer it. I have all of the tapes of the interrogations that you when you talk to the detectives and Diane talked to the I have got that transcript of every one of those tapes, and they are not in there. They're not in there. Well, perhaps you perceive it differently, So you're saying the court will perceive it differently in the first of next year. How do you justify changing a dozen names in your book and still you falsified names and you call it a true book. How do you do that? How do you justify it? I changed the names of your lovers because some of their wives didn't even know they were having affairs with you, and it seemed no point in breaking up all those marriages, the ones that had not been broken up. I didn't have a dozen lovers. But the fact is you're saying that you were protecting the innocent right. I never said that you said, and so there's no point in embarrassing and hurting people anymore. Okay, then, because you can understand Diane, Diane, you can understand why the names would be changed because I got confused between lou the lover, Nick the lover, and all because it confused me. Okay, I think we're jumping ahead of ourselves because there are a lot of people.

1:10:20 There are about twenty million people watching this show today, and a lot of those people don't know your story. A lot of those people, for this is their first thing, surely don't know about it from reading Admiral's book. Trust me. Okay, interesting debate. Diane actually did have over a dozen lovers, and she would just golm into one little piece of Ant's book that might be like a slight embellishment and try to discredit the whole book. But the book was well researched based on interviews with other people and the core transcript, So I do believe it was the story was talking. Yeah, I believe that too, But in hearing that clip, it also made me think I would not want to debate Diane Downs because she had seemed mean, right, That's why I wanted to play that. It's she's She is very smart and an articulate for sure. On November twelfth, nineteen eighty nine, the movie Small Sacrifices, based on Anne's book, was shown on ABC as a movie of the Week. It was a two parter. Do you remember ABC or movies of Oh yeah, they don't do this anymore, but they were really great. Sarah Fawcett, Diane must have loved that, played her, and Ryan O'Neill played Nick. Sarah one and Emmy for her portrayal of Diane Downs. It's available on YouTube, and I will link it in our show notes and our show notes. I'm looking at it right now. What I've linked the Small Sacrifices, You can watch the whole thing. I have Diane's father's website. You can watch that episode of Oprah, which if you are

1:11:51 into interested in this case, I highly recommend that you watch that episode of Oprah, if only to see Oprah's hair. It is. It's amazing, quite a structure, but it's just really compelling to see Diane. She is sharp as attack in this episode. I think since she has become more of a lunatic. But that episode of Oprah is really great. Also the episode of twenty twenty with Becky Babcock that I linked to, and you can watch that whole episode too. Okay, this is getting a little long, but I do have some questions for you. There was no blood spatter on Diane.

1:12:33 Why do you think that could have been? Well, if she was outside the car and leaning into the car when she shot the children, I could see the blood spatter might not have made it back out the window. Yeah, we don't know how far the windows were down or not. And I'm wondering if maybe the windows could have been up further and she stuck her hand in and that's why she was shielded from the blood spatter. Yeah, where did the gun? Where did she put the gun? She didn't have a whole lot of time, She had a little bit of time, But where could the gun have gone? I mean, I don't know the geography around there, but you know it's pretty I'm sure it's a lot of wide open country and trees and you know, it's just you have taken to every time we're in the car driving now, you like to point out where a body could be on me drive. Yeah, well, you know it's good to know where to look if you're looking for a body. Investigators thought that the gun could have been in like a cushioned pouch and it could have floated down the river to a larger waterway. Maybe. What do you think the significance of the unicorn was? Remember that there was a I think it was a nine inch bronze statue that was engraved with the children's names. It's so bizarre to me that like she had this made in advance. It doesn't make any sense, and it was dated it was May thirteenth, the children the attack happened on May nineteenth, and made a big deal of it in her book. And I just couldn't figure out this significant significance of it. Yeah, I mean, it's just very bizarre. It's very bizarre. Do you

1:14:04 think Diane was capable of love? Did she love her children? No? I don't think so. The one thing that's really hard for me to understand is she seemed like she really loved being pregnant, and she seemed so happy about, you know, giving birth and things like that, but then she seemed to have no love for the children at all. So I don't understand that. It's very strange, but it seems like it's all about her and how she felt being pregnant as a narcissist. I think she loved the adulation that the child could could bring upon her right, but then she didn't want to deal with it. She loved being adored, but she didn't really know how to return the love that someone gave her. The gun residue test, I guess we talked about this the last episode. How easy is it to wash away gun residue. I've heard conflicting reports. I have a quote.

1:14:56 Gunpowder is one of the toughest stains around when it comes to removing it from clothes. The fact that if it gets on your skin it is like being given a tattoo should give you some sort of idea how tough the stain is. Washing soda is your best bet. It includes, among its ingredients the exceedingly corrosive carbolic acid. If you use this mixed with water, you can lift off a gunpowder stain, So that makes it sound like it's harder to get rid of. I guess I wonder too, how good the testing was back then. This is you didn't mention that the last episode nineteen eighty three. Yeah, so it may not have been you know, the testing may not have been as good as it probably is today. Do you think that Diane would would have been convicted without Christie's testimony? I think it would have been hard to convict her without it. There really wasn't a whole lot of evidence, so it would be, you know, just her word. I believe it was absolutely necessary to have Christie's testimony. And how would the jury have gone against Christie's testimony after this poor little girl gets up there and I just can't believe it, Like, oh I don't believe her? Right?

1:15:59 What is the bushy haired stranger theory not investigated enough? I think it was investigated adequately. I think so too. But that's something that Diane and her father have pointed to continually that there were a lot of people were like, hey, I saw a bushy haired guy at the gas station, or hey, you know there was a lot of that going on, but none of them handed out. You would hate to have been a bushy haired guy living in that area around that time, because everyone was probably it was nineteen eighty three. There were probably a lot of bushy haired guys, for sure. I don't really know what the hairstyle was in nineteen eighty three, But did police judge Diane as a woman with loose morals who was capable of murdering her children? Do you mean were they biased because she had affairs and loose morals?

1:16:44 Yeah? I mean, I don't know, but it seems like to me the evidence pointed in her direction pretty clearly true, regardless of whether she had affairs or not. I agree that brings us to the end. Rest in peace, Cheryl Anne Downs. Cheryl was a sweet, bubbly, active child who loved gymnastics and flowers. She was kind and creative. She loved to hike and explore nature. Her sister was her best friend, and she was a loving sister to her brother Danny. I love that you know that you have to jump in there. I know because I always I get tearios. I understand I'm not so strong like you. I know well by the time you're hearing this, this will be kind of old news, but it was tragic news this week that Jerry and Teresa from The Golden Bachelor have split.

1:17:39 It's like love isn't real, Like even a man well into his seventies is still an f boy. It's almost like you shouldn't go on a TV show to try to find your true love. That's my thing. Easy for you to say, it's not that easy for everybody to find the love that I've found with you. But I don't know. It's it's bizarre. Did you you watched the whole thing? I think I watched like two episodes of it. I think I think I made you watch two episodes and then I guess I lost interest. But yeah, I mean he seemed like an authentic guy, but clearly something I heard that it was a location thing, which I kind of get, Like if you have kids that live around you and they both you know, they both have right to be around your kids.

1:18:29 Yeah, and I think that that might have been I would like to see statistics, like if you look over all of the dating shows, all the Bachelor shows that have been on over the years, like how many relationships have actually made it out of like, you know what percentage of relationships actually make it? Yeah, it's not it's not a lot. I got to be very low, very low. Well, thank you all so much for listening. We appreciate. I'm sorry I have breaking news. We've talked about this before. But our sweet cat, Cosmo sits in a chair and there like these pigeons that sit out haunting him. Aren't they know? I'm like wondering, are they looking at each other or is the pigeon just hanging out there? It seems like the pigeon, and there were two of them, is taunting him like on purpose. It really does feel that way. We should try to get a picture and post. Does the pigeon only show up when we're podcasting? Where's the pigeon always here? Maybe the pigeon is I have a listener, no idea, but I know that Cosmo is not happy about this whole situation. He really wants to play with a pigeon. I don't think you know, if a cat is a domestic indoor cat and has been in their whole life, are they capable of killing? Yes? Everyone, in our eyes, everyone is a potential murderer. That's true. That's true well as I was saying, thank you all so much for listening. We appreciate each and every one of you. Please rate, review, follow and subscribe, Find us on social media, or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com, and please consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash Love Mary Kill one tier five dollars a month for early ad free access and

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