Donnah and Mark Winger - Part 1

0:00 In August 1995, Mark Winger called 911 from his Springfield, Illinois home. His wife Donna had been brutally attacked by an intruder brandishing a hammer. Mark intervened, shooting the man dead. Police ruled the shooting a justifiable homicide. The case was closed, and Mark was labeled a hero. There was little reason to question what had happened inside that house. But years later, the thoroughness and credibility of that investigation would be called into question. I'm Rich. And I'm Tina. Welcome to Love, Marry, Kill. Hey, Rich.

0:49 Hey, Tina. How are you? I am doing very well. How are you? I'm good. Pretty solid today. I got a good night's sleep last night. The weather is cooling off. Excellent. Remember back last week when I wasn't feeling well because I ate something that didn't agree with me? I do remember. And then I asked you, what did you eat? And was your stomach okay? And you were fine. I was fine. Yeah. And this is embarrassing, but I realized that we had something in our pantry, mustard, that you do not have to refrigerate. Don't come at me. You don't have to. But sometimes I'll take like a piece of deli meat and I'll just put mustard on it. I'll roll it up and that's, you know, a high protein snack. And I looked at the mustard and I realized that it had expired in January of 2025. Oh, yeah. That was a while ago. But it made me realize that now we're a sad, empty nester couple. And we're going to be like, you know how we used to, like when we went to my dad's house and like we would have soda that had expired six years ago.

1:46 Yeah, like an archaeological expedition going through the cabinets. And he really didn't want us to throw anything away. You know, if you even like hinted at, you know, well, this soda that expired six years ago really doesn't taste very good. Then, you know. So this is going to be happening to us more and more, you're saying? That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Our kids are going to come here and they're going to be like, well, this expired in 2016. So this is our future. This is what we have to look forward to. Well, that's really disheartening. But I don't think anyone goes through mustard very quickly, even a family. Like mustard is just one of those things. It's going to be expired at some point. So check your expiration date. And I did put it, I bought a new one and I put it in the refrigerator. Right. Yeah, it just made me, it gave me pause to think, wow, I really do need to look at expiration dates more.

2:35 I guess so. If you follow us on social media, you may have noticed that we have a new Love Mary Kill member of the team that's helping us out. We do. I've noticed. Our beloved daughter, Emma. We're still working out exactly what she's going to do, but she's going to be making videos to introduce our cases each week. and hopefully making some other short-form content with breaking news true crime cases. But we're super excited to have her aboard. She was going to come here and talk to everyone, but we haven't had time for her to do that yet. But I wanted to thank everyone so much who has seen her videos, that has interacted with the videos, and have given her such a warm welcome. She's been Really overwhelmed.

3:16 And she literally is like, you guys have the best listeners. They're so wonderful and kind. Something we knew already. Yeah, absolutely. Today, we're headed to Springfield, Illinois, my home state. Mm-hmm. Springfield, Illinois is known for two things, Abraham Lincoln and the Horseshoe Sandwich. The Horseshoe Sandwich. Horseshoe Sandwich. Never heard of it. Have you ever had one before? No, I've never even heard of it. Do you want to take the napkin off the plate that I just gave you? Oh, sure. It's an open-faced sandwich, and there's a piece of bread on the bottom. Wow. And then you can use whatever kind of meat you want. It was originally made with a piece of thick ham. Mm-hmm. So I used some deli ham today, but you can also put sausage or bacon or a hamburger. And then it's French fries on top, which are supposed to be like the nails in the horseshoe. And then you cover it with cheese sauce. And I'll be honest, I did not use the official Springfield, Illinois beer cheese sauce. I just used regular cheese sauce.

4:14 I'm okay with that. I'll allow it. Yeah, I thought you might. But I also made you or cut up a thinly sliced apple. And some donut holes, which are a favorite of yours. I know. We're going to be here for a while. Yeah. It's almost dinner time, so this might be your dinner. Excellent. I'll take it. All right. Give it a try. Yep. Did you enjoy the horseshoe sandwich? I did. It was very, nothing not to like. I mean, cheese, french fries, ham. I actually gave you a pony shoe. A horse shoe is supposed to be two pieces of bread, but I only gave you one because it's pretty filling. It's pretty messy too. I feel like it's the kind of thing you might eat at like a county fair or something like that. Is that accurate or is it more of like a.

5:01 I think it was more of a diner thing. I think if you go to any diner in Springfield, Illinois, they have them. And they're for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. You can customize them. Very versatile. You know, like country gravy on it for breakfast and brown, whatever you want. I think, you know, there's not a lot of rules for the horseshoe sandwich, but it is definitely, you know, something in central Illinois that they like an awful lot. Excellent. Well, thank you for that. It was 4.27 p.m. on Tuesday, August 29, 1995, in Springfield, Illinois, when the man, frantic and breathing heavily, shouted to the 911 dispatcher, Emergency! Emergency! There's a man! He beat my wife and I shot him! My God, my wife's bleeding!

5:42 Is the man still in your house? Yes, he's lying there on the floor with a bullet in his head. Did you shoot him? Yes, I shot him! He was killing my wife! My baby's crying! I'll call you back! The operator was able to triangulate the location of the call and determined that the caller was Mark Winger, 32. She called him back. Yes, yes, hello? Mr. Winger? Yes. This is the police department. I've got officers en route. I need to know what's going on there. My wife is dying on the floor. Who is this man who attacked her? I don't know who he is. Is he still inside the house? Yes, he's lying on the floor. I gotta hold my wife. I gotta get to my wife. Okay, are you Mark Winger? Yes, I am. Yes, I am.

6:23 Okay, and is your wife Donna? Yes, she is. How old is she? 31. When did the man get there? I don't know. A few minutes ago. Please, let me get to my wife. I won't hang up. My door is open. The dispatcher could hear someone moaning in the background. Then Mark say, don't die. Oh my God, Donna, don't die. There are 35 different communities across the U.S. that answer to the name Springfield. On a recent Patreon-exclusive episode, we talked about three women who mysteriously vanished in Springfield, Missouri, the largest Springfield in the country by population. Springfield, Illinois, comes in second. About 114,000 people lived there at the time of the 2020 census, and roughly 208,000 people live in the greater metropolitan area. Located in the center of the state, Springfield is the capital of Illinois and the largest city in the central part of the state. Springfield was originally named Calhoun before it was renamed in 1837, and then it became the new state capital. The person most closely associated with Springfield is Abraham Lincoln, of course.

7:30 He moved there in 1837 and lived in the city for nearly 25 years before he left in 1861 to become president. Today, Springfield is home to Lincoln's former house, his presidential library and museum, and his tomb. Springfield sits along historic Route 66, which runs right through the city, giving it plenty of the classic roadside Americana attractions. The Cozy Dog, an early version of the Corn Dog, was created there, and the city is home to a made-right restaurant that claims to be America's first drive-thru. But Springfield also played a significant role in a much darker chapter of American history. In August 1908, a white mob attacked the city's black community, burning and destroying homes and businesses and lynching two black men. The violence in Lincoln's hometown shocked the country and helped spur the founding of the NAACP the following year. Springfield is also home to the Dana Thomas House, one of Frank Lloyd Wright's best-preserved early prairie-style homes.

8:29 Have you ever been to Springfield? I think I have. At least we've driven through it. You've probably driven through it with me. Yeah, probably. But if you've been to Illinois, especially Central Illinois to Southern Illinois, it is all about Abraham Lincoln. Oh, yeah. Well, and Superman as well. Yeah. Shout out Metropolis, Illinois. Donna Ellen Brown was born on November 10th, 1963 to Sarah Jane and Robert Saul Brown, also known as Cash. She was born in Hollywood, Florida, but grew up in the Hudson Valley in Newburgh, New York, about 60 miles north of New York City, with her two younger sisters, Jennifer and Michelle. They lived on a beautiful estate called Algonac that once belonged to Franklin Delano Roosevelt's grandmother, Catherine. The 1852 estate burned down and was rebuilt in 1917. They sold the property in 1986 after Sarah Jane and Cash divorced when Donna was 17. Sarah Jane later married Ira Drescher in 1988. He had two daughters and a son from a previous marriage, but loved Sarah Jane's daughters like his own. Donna was a sweet child who never got in trouble. She was very social and athletic, but had a learning disability that prevented her from achieving the top grades that she desired. After one semester in college, she decided she'd rather get right to work.

9:46 She worked as a dental assistant for a family friend's dental practice. She loved the work and decided to give school another try and became a surgical assistant. She was very good at her job and a favorite of doctors and nurses. Sarah Jane, Donna's mother, told 48 Hours that they were very close. She would tell me everything. They talked up to four times a day on the phone. Sarah Jane was close to all three of her daughters, but shared an especially tight bond with her oldest daughter. Donna had a bright smile, dark wavy hair, and an outgoing personality, but she was choosy who she dated. Her mother said that she was old-fashioned in that way. Donna was 24, working as a surgical assistant when she met Mark Winger. She actually met his older brother, Greg, first.

10:33 Greg worked with Donna as a nurse anesthetist and thought she might be a good match for his younger brother. Donna was skeptical when Greg first suggested setting them up, but she eventually agreed to one date. Mark Allen Winger was born in November 1962 in Elyria, Ohio, about 25 miles west of Cleveland, the youngest of three born to Sally and Jerry Winger. He grew up in a Jewish family and had always felt deeply connected to his Jewish faith and heritage. He was an avid fan of Ohio sports teams long after he left the state. After graduating from Elyria High School in 1981, Mark attended the Virginia Military Institute, earning a degree in physics in 1985. He was commissioned as a second lieutenant in the Army and spent a year stationed in South Korea, followed by a year in Georgia. After leaving active duty, he worked for a laboratory instrument manufacturer in Florida. When Gregg introduced Mark to Donna in November 1987, he'd already built an impressive resume on paper. VMI graduate, physics degree, Army officer, and a promising career ahead of him. To Donna's surprise, their first date was a hit. Mark was nerdy, but cute, charming, and funny, a gentleman with a good sense of humor.

11:50 Donna was surprised when at the end of the night, Mark leaned in for a kiss. Normally chased on a first date, she succumbed and enjoyed the moment. Greg felt like quite the matchmaker when he heard the reports from Donna and Mark that they hit it off, and both were interested in a second date. Soon, they couldn't bear to be apart. Mark was quiet and more serious than Donna, but she brought out his silly side. Their families thought they were well-matched. They were very affectionate together, always touching. Mark's mother, Sally, said, quote, They loved each other very much, and that love rubbed off on everybody around them. Within six months, they were engaged, and nine months later, on March 4, 1989, they married in front of 130 friends and family members. Donna walked down the aisle by herself.

12:38 Mark met her halfway, and they walked the rest of the way together until they were standing beneath the Koopa. A kuppah is a canopy under which a Jewish couple stands during their wedding ceremony. Traditionally, it symbolizes the home that they will build together. At the end of the ceremony, Mark stomped on a glass and the guest shouted, Mazel Tov. Donna later shared with her mother that underneath his tuxedo, Mark was wearing Cleveland Browns boxer shorts. That's a little embarrassing. Why is that embarrassing? Cleveland Browns, come on. I don't know what that means. In 1989, Donna and Mark moved from Hollywood, Florida to Springfield, Illinois, after he received a job offer from the Illinois Department of Nuclear Safety. His job was to monitor effluent discarded by the nuclear power plants across the state. Effluent is liquid waste, sewage, or treated wastewater that flows out of a factory, treatment plant, or industrial facility into a body of water or the environment. The young couple bought a four-bedroom brick ranch that they hoped to soon fill with children.

13:42 Until then, Donna worked at Memorial Hospital as a surgical assistant. They joined a synagogue and became friends with other young couples. The Wingers had a happy, loving marriage, and people were drawn to them, especially Donna and her warm, easygoing personality. But soon their new friends were having children. Donna and Mark found themselves on the heartbreaking journey of infertility. After five years of trying, Donna's doctor told her that scarring in her fallopian tubes would make getting pregnant difficult, if not impossible for her. In December, a friend told Donna about a pregnant teenager who was putting her baby up for adoption. Donna felt like it was destiny. On May 27, 1995, Bailey Winger was born, named for Donna's grandmother. Five days later, on June 1, their attorney delivered her to the Wingers' home.

14:33 They were delighted with their new daughter. Donna's mother, Sarah Jane, was there to videotape her arrival. She could be heard on the video saying, In the video, Donna was absolutely bursting with happiness. She could barely contain her excitement as she welcomed Bailey into her arms. Donna and Mark embraced lovingly and kissed as they cradled her. Mark later said, For the next three months, nearly every moment of Bailey's young life was captured on video by her smitten parents. In one video, Mark snuck into her nursery and said, I just wanted to have a little time alone with you and let you know how much Daddy loves you, and I want to get it on video because I know you are going to grow up so fast, I'll wonder where the years went. Donna had never been happier.

15:26 She was so proud of her baby, and everything in her life seemed to be falling into place. All of her dreams were coming true. I've seen a lot of videos of when Bailey came home in the first three months of her life, and they were so, so happy. Mark genuinely seems like a great doting dad. I've never seen a happier, more ebullient mom than Donna. And Grandma Sarah Jane was also in a lot of the videos, and they were just very sweet and loving. And you could feel the love in these videos. Oh, nice. On August 29, 1995, Officer Dave Berenger answered the 911 call from the Winger house a little after 4.30 p.m. He found Mark kneeling beside his wife, yelling at her to breathe. Donna was splayed out on the dining room floor.

16:11 Blood spatter and tissue covered the room in all directions. She was barely clinging to life. Her head wound was severe. About five feet away lay a tall, thin man wearing a t-shirt and cut-off denim shorts. He had two gunshot wounds to the head and was breathing shallowly. A bloodied hammer lay on the floor between them. A. 45 caliber revolver sat on a table nearby. Other first responders arrived and Mark was asked to step aside so the EMTs had room to work. A few minutes later, Officer Barringer heard a baby crying. He followed the sound and found Mark sitting on the edge of his bed, struggling to calm Bailey while crying for Donna. Mark appeared to be in shock. Barringer picked Bailey up and held her against his chest until she settled down. As the EMTs prepared to remove Donna and the young man from the house, Barringer realized he hadn't taken any pictures of the crime scene.

17:08 He remembered the Polaroid camera in his car and decided to take a few photos. He handed Bailey off to another officer, retrieved his camera, and began snapping pictures. He only had three pictures left, so he only took three pictures of the crime scene, but they would become very important later. And both Donna and this man were still alive at the time that they arrived? They were both clinging to life at this time. Okay. Investigators at the scene questioned Mark about what had happened. He told them that he had been in the basement running on the treadmill when he heard loud thumping overhead. He ran upstairs, checked on Bailey to make sure she was safe, and grabbed his gun before heading toward the noise.

17:48 When he reached the living room, he saw the thin man attacking Donna with a hammer, and he opened fire. Mark said he had no idea who the man was. One of the officers checked the man's back pocket and found his wallet. His driver's license identified him as 27-year-old Roger L. Harrington. Donna and Roger were rushed to the hospital, but both were dead on arrival. Investigators didn't tell Mark right away. Back at the house, Mark sat on the edge of his bed, rocking back and forth, hugging himself and repeating Donna's name. Dried blood was smeared across his hands, arms, and t-shirt. When detectives came into the room to question him further, Mark asked if they could call his friend and rabbi, Mike Datz, and ask him to come to the house. They agreed and told Mark that Bailey had been taken to a neighbor's house. Who is that man that attacked my wife? Mark asked. Is his name Roger?

18:43 The officers confirmed that it was. That's him. That's the driver. He's been calling the house all week, harassing us. We'll be back after a break. Mark started at the beginning. He explained that a few days earlier, while he was in Chattanooga at a training session, Donna and Bailey had flown home from Florida on August 23rd after visiting her family there for eight days, introducing them to Bailey. They'd taken a shuttle from the St. Louis airport to their home in Springfield. It's about a 100-mile, two-hour drive. Donna and Bailey were the only passengers. The driver, Roger Harrington, was driving erratically at speeds up to 85 miles per hour, which frightened Donna, according to Mark. Roger told Donna about a demon who had control of his mind.

19:38 He said that the demon told him to do bad things like kill people and plant car bombs. That is not what you want to hear from your shuttle driver. No, especially on a two-hour drive with your newborn baby. Yikes. Then Roger shifted gears and told Donna that he liked older women and invited her to an orgy. By the time they reached the Winger's house, Donna couldn't get out of the van fast enough. But now Roger knew where she lived and that her husband was out of town. Donna was so rattled by the experience that she called a friend. Deanne Schultz, who came and stayed with her and Bailey until Mark returned on Saturday. After receiving an obscene phone call that she believed to be from Roger, Deanne called the police to alert them to the situation.

20:23 They promised that they'd add extra patrols by the Winker's house in the coming days. Donna wrote a detailed two-page account of the nightmarish drive. Here's an excerpt. He started telling me about his spirit, Dom. He said sometimes Dom takes control of his body when he's driving and makes him fly above the treetops. The experience made me feel very nervous and extremely uncomfortable. I felt as if my life and the life of my daughter were in the hands of a nut. There were several more obscene phone calls to the Winger home in the coming days. Mark was also receiving calls at work from the man. Mark said he spoke on riddles. He couldn't make sense of what he was saying. Mark angrily told him to leave his family alone. He called the shuttle service and complained to Harrington's boss, Ray Duffy. He suspended Roger immediately upon further investigation. Mark continued with his story to the police.

21:21 He remembered an important detail about the hammer that had been found bloodied between Donna and Roger's bodies. When Mark returned from his trip, he noticed the hammer sitting on a table. When he asked Donna why it was out, She smiled and said it was a reminder that he needed to hang up a new hat rack for her that weekend. Then that afternoon, when Mark got home from work at 4 p.m., he told Donna he was going to work out in the basement. He'd been on the treadmill for about 15 minutes when he heard two thumps come from above him. He ran upstairs and found Bailey in the middle of the bed unattended. He knew something was wrong. Donna would never leave their three-month-old alone in an unsafe environment. Because he'd been concerned about the ongoing harassment, Mark had left his gun out on the nightstand. He grabbed it and went towards the noises coming from the dining room. He found Donna lying on the floor, a man straddled over her bashing her head with a hammer.

22:16 Mark quickly fired his gun at the man from the hallway, hitting him on the top of the head, and then he came closer and fired a second time, hitting him in the forehead. Donna lay motionless, barely breathing while the man was moaning, but gravely injured when Mark called 911. Mark asked if he was going to be arrested for shooting Roger Harrington. The detectives assured him that he'd done the right thing killing the man who was attacking his wife. They told Mark that he was a hero. Detective Charlie Cox recognized Roger Harrington's name. He had dealt with Roger before, responding to a domestic violence incident at the trailer Roger shared with his then-wife. Roger had badly beaten her. Cox threw him out of the trailer, although Roger's wife refused to press charges. Cox also knew that Roger had previously spent time in a mental health facility. The detectives had little reason to doubt anything that Mark Winger was telling them.

23:12 Friends and neighbors spoke about Donna and Mark in glowing terms. They had a happy marriage and were delighted to finally be starting their journey as parents together. That night on the late news, state's attorney Patrick Kelly even said at a hastily arranged press conference, quote, Mr. Winger acted in self-defense when he shot Mr. Harrington, and so, therefore, no charges will be filed against him. I anticipate that there will never be any charges filed against Mr. Winger. Roger Harrington's beat-up car sat outside the Winger home. The police searched the car and took everything they found inside as evidence. Mark admitted to detectives that after he'd shot Harrington, he was still alive, moaning and groaning. That was actually the moaning that they heard on the 911 call. Mark struck him in the chest with a hammer several times to, quote, shut him up. No problem, we understand, the detective said.

24:07 Hmm, that's a little. A little disturbing. Interesting, yeah. Yeah, because it's justifiable homicide, but. Yeah, but once he is incapacitated, then going after him with a hammer. Right, there was really no reason to hit him with a hammer. Yeah, that seems a little odd. When Rabbi Mike arrived, he pulled Mark aside and told him that Donna was dead. Mark fell to his knees and sobbed openly, holding his face in his hands as the detectives looked on with empathy. Rabbi Mike was devastated not only for his friend, but for his wife, Jo, who was best friends with Donna. Jo was seven months pregnant. Mike was worried that the news could put her into an early labor, so he called a friend and asked them to stay with her until he got home and not to turn on the television or radio. But the phone was ringing off the hook and Joe picked it up.

24:54 It was Deanne, her and Donna's close friend. Donna's been badly hurt. Joe asked her friend to drive her to the Winger house. There was no stopping her. She found her husband and fell into his arms, devastated by the news. With the Winger's house closed for investigation, they all gathered at a neighbor's house. Mark was badly shaken over having lost his wife and shooting a man dead, but soon he fell into a deep sleep on the couch. It wasn't until late that night that Sarah Jane learned her daughter had been murdered. She and Ira had been out with friends and they were settling into bed around 11 o'clock when the phone rang. Sarah Jane answered. The caller, Rabbi Mike, asked to speak with Ira. Thinking the call was an emergency at the nursing home he owned, Ira took the call in his study. Mike told him the horrible news, how Donna had been bludgeoned to death with a hammer, and how Mark had killed her attacker. Ira was shocked by the news. How would he tell Sarah that her beloved daughter was gone? He sat in the dark, crying for several minutes, trying to regain his composure, before climbing the stairs to deliver the news to Sarah Jane.

25:59 When he saw her propped up in bed and the soft glow from the lamplight, he had a hard time getting the words out, not wanting to destroy her peace. After he delivered the tragic news, Ira knew that she'd never be the same person. This was a pivotal moment in time. Ira was careful but deliberate with his words. Sarah Jane screamed and cried for an hour afterwards in Ira's arms. Their pajamas soaked through with their tears. Sarah Jane met her second husband, Ira Drescher, in 1984 at a singles party in Hollywood, Florida. Both were from the Bronx and even attended the same grade school, although Ira was several years older. Sarah Jane came from a wealthy family, but Ira was self-made. He was the president of the Apartment and Hotel Association of Hollywood and owned multiple properties, including an assisted living facility. Sarah Jane's father had worked for the New York Times and hobnobbed with celebrities, politicians, and academics, expanding her worldview. She enjoyed New York's art and culture scene, but went on to earn two master's degrees and later worked as a teacher. When she and Ira fell in love, he preferred attending sporting events and Sarah Jane the ballet, but they made it work, each appreciating the other's passions. They married three months before Donna and Mark in December 1988. You know, in so many of these stories that we tell, I get emotionally attached to some of the families. And Sarah Jane and Ira in this case are just amazing people. So kind and generous.

27:31 And you can tell that Donna's death just deeply affected her whole family. And it just makes me really sad. Ira is quite a character. Just one of those guys that always has a funny story. Probably always has like a piece of candy in his pocket to give to his grandkids or whatever. But he pitched softball for 60 years. 60 years? Isn't that crazy to think about? Yeah, that is. And he has won 75 medals in senior track and field, which I'm not sure what that is, but maybe we should look into that. That's impressive. Sarah Jane and Ira made the difficult phone calls to immediate family and then went to the airport to catch a flight, their eyes bleary from tears and lack of sleep.

28:11 Still in shock, when they arrived in Springfield, they headed to the dad's house, where Mark and Bailey had spent the night. Friends and Mark's family had also gathered there. When Mark saw Sarah Jane, they embraced, holding on to each other tightly. Mark saying, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, over and over. Sarah Jane looked him in the eye and said, Mark, I know you did the best you could, and I love you very much. Donna's friend, Deanne, who had been taking care of Bailey, handed her over to her grandmother, who sobbed into the baby's hair, devastated that she would grow up without Donna's love and guidance. Later that day, the family went to make funeral arrangements. Sarah Jane wanted Donna to be buried in Florida, and Mark agreed.

28:53 At the funeral home, the director asked if they'd like to see Donna, but Sarah and Ira declined. Mark and his brother Greg said yes. Mark just collapsed, Greg later told 48 Hours. Mark absolutely collapsed to his knees on the floor, holding her hand, crying. He asked God to take his life and give hers back. Later, both Sarah Jane and Ira deeply regretted the decision not to see Donna one final time as they decided on a closed casket funeral. There would be a memorial service in Springfield and another in Hollywood, where she was buried. As Donna's casket was being lowered into the ground, Sarah Jane jumped from her chair and climbed on top. Her family gently pulled her away.

29:35 The media portrayed Roger Harrington as a deranged, mentally abused man. man, but those who knew him didn't agree with that characterization. He had spent time in a mental care facility for depression and delusional thoughts, but he wasn't violent. He came from a loving, hardworking family. Roger and his sister Barbara were adopted by Helen and Ralph Harrington from a family member when they were babies. They didn't have a lot of money, but they never went without. The Harringtons weren't able to go on extravagant vacations, but instead often went on camping and fishing trips together. They were a happy, tight-knit family. Three hours had passed before someone from the hospital called to inform the Harringtons about Roger's death. They were shocked. Roger had gone through some difficult things, but they felt he was doing better. He was happier than he'd been in a long time, seemed stable, and liked his job. his parents were sure that he wasn't capable of killing an innocent woman with a hammer. When they went to talk to the police, they were treated rudely like they were criminals. When Helen, Ralph, and Barbara insisted to the police that Roger was incapable of such violence, they were brushed off. No one would give them the time of day. Detective Charlie Cox said to Barbara, Roger's sister, Ma'am, any time you want to know how your kid brother walked in that home, snapped, and killed that woman... Come by my office, and I'll show you, step by step.

31:01 Barbara decided to do some digging herself. Roger was renting a room from a friend, Susan Collins. She called her to see if she knew anything. Susan said that on the day of his death, Roger had an appointment to meet with a customer, but she didn't know their name. Susan said that Roger knew his job was in danger. He really loved driving for the shuttle service. He was hoping the meeting could smooth things over. This news gave Barbara hope that her brother could be vindicated, but the Harrington family weren't the only ones questioning what happened at the Wingers' home. One detective was also having serious doubts. Mark Winger's story was just too tidy for him. Donna's autopsy revealed the brutality of the attack. She had been struck in the head with a hammer at least seven times.

31:49 The blows caused massive trauma to her brain that ultimately killed her. Roger had been shot twice in the head, with both bullets passing through his brain. He also had several contusions on his chest that the pathologist determined had been caused by blows from a hammer. Mark had already told police that after shooting Roger, he struck him in the chest with the hammer because Roger was still moaning. Because Roger had died violently, the county coroner called an inquest, assembling a jury to hear the evidence and determine the circumstances of his death. The question before them was whether Mark had been justified in shooting Roger. Once the evidence was presented to them, the jury overwhelmingly concluded that Mark had acted justifiably in shooting the man he said was attacking his wife. Roger Harrington's death was ruled a justifiable homicide, and the case was closed. At the time of Donna's death, Bailey's adoption had not been finalized. Mark wasn't sure what to do. The thought of being a single father to an infant was daunting. After the funeral, he went to Cleveland to spend time with his family to weigh his options.

32:59 I was overwhelmed by shock. I was fearful of losing my daughter as much as I was fearful of being a single parent. I was besieged by confusion and loneliness. I blamed myself for Donna's death, for having complained about Roger Harrington to his boss. Mark's family told 48 Hours that he was deeply distraught over the death of his wife and the man that he had killed. After a few weeks in Ohio, he returned to Springfield and went back to work. Bailey stayed with a family friend while Sarah Jane and Donna's sisters, Jennifer and Michelle, took turns coming to visit and care for her. Mark stayed with his boss while his home underwent repairs and redecorating. The community surrounding him saw him struggling and quickly losing weight.

33:43 Everyone pitched in where they could to ease his burden. Ultimately, Mark decided to finalize Bailey's adoption and hired a 21-year-old nanny to take care of her while he worked. On October 15, 1995, about six weeks after Donna's death, Mark sent a letter to the Springfield paper, the State Journal Register, thanking the community for rallying behind him and for their support. Dear Editor, Five years ago, when my wife Donna and I moved to Springfield, we were total strangers to the community. During our years in Springfield, we met through our employment, neighborhood, and temple many wonderful people. These friendships will be remembered.

34:24 When Donna died tragically last month, the compassion that our friends and co-workers expressed to me and Bailey was overwhelming. My wife's lifetime of good deeds and her everlasting concern for others was were evident by the outpouring of people who attended Donna's memorial service. I often told Donna that if love was measured in compassion for others, she would be humanity. Donna was a wonderful, caring, and decent person. Our life with Bailey and each other was just beginning when Donna's life was suddenly and needlessly ended. On behalf of Bailey and me, as well as Donna's parents and siblings and mine, I want to publicly express our thank you to the people in this community whose concern and understanding at this difficult time will long be remembered.

35:10 Do you have any opinion about Mark questioning whether or not he should finalize Bailey's adoption? I mean, I couldn't understand being in a situation like that where you had just gotten this baby and suddenly you're left all alone. I can't imagine making a decision not to go through with it, but I can understand being a little hesitant, thinking through what are maybe other options that we could take here. So I don't I. Would think after having her and caring for her for three months, it would be really hard to give her up. Maybe he was thinking she would be better off in a two-parent home. I don't really know. But also, it sounds like he wasn't spending a lot of time with her. Sarah Jane and Donna's sisters, and I think even his mom, was coming into town and they were caring for the baby around the clock, it sounds like.

35:57 Wow. He was working and doing other things. He was traveling for work at the time, too, it sounds like. I don't think he was traveling as much as he was dealing with his grief. Okay. One thing that bothered Detective Doug Williamson was a note written on the back of a bank deposit slip found in Roger Harrington's car. Scrawled on it were the words, To Williamson, it suggested Roger must have been invited to the Winger home that afternoon. that he had an appointment, it didn't seem like he had randomly showed up at the Winger home. There were other things that didn't sit right with him. Police had found two weapons in Roger's car, a blackjack under the front seat, and a small knife in his overnight bag.

36:43 Do you know what a blackjack is? I think it's like a small kind of club, like almost a small billy club that you would hit someone with, essentially. If Roger had gone to the Winger home intending to hurt Donna, why would he leave both weapons behind and instead use a hammer he supposedly found inside the house. Investigators also found a coffee mug and a pack of Marlboro cigarettes inside the Winger home that appeared to belong to Roger, suggesting he had been there for some time. There were no signs of forced entry, indicating that Roger had likely been let inside. Williamson wanted to keep digging. He suggested subpoenaing the phone records for the Winger home, the home of Susan Collins, where Roger had been living, and the hotel where Mark had stayed in Chattanooga that week.

37:30 If the records supported Mark's story, Williamson was prepared to let it go. His partner, Charlie Cox, thought the case was solved, and Williamson's superiors weren't interested in pursuing his theory either. They dismissed him as a young, inexperienced detective. Doug kept pointing out what he called the red flags and pieces that didn't seem to fit, urging them to keep the investigation open. He was turned down flat each time he brought it up. The case was solved. There's one more thing that bothers me. The wingers had a bull mastiff. It was 180 pounds. Oh, wow. And no one knows where the dog was on the day of this incident.

38:13 Oh, interesting. Which a dog that big, I think they tend to be very protective. Right. Like, the police would have noticed that dog being around, but the dog was mysteriously not, like, no one knew where the dog was. Oh, that's really interesting. Yeah, if the dog was around, you would have to believe the dog would go after anyone attacking. Would have protected Donna, exactly. We'll be back after a break. In December, Mark Winger stopped by the Springfield Police Department. He asked for his gun back. It was a gift from his father, he said. Detective Cox thought the request was odd. Why would he want the weapon back after everything he'd been through? Then Mark asked how the investigation was going. In Cox's mind, the case was closed, so the question surprised him and raised his hackles. Could his partner be right about this guy? Sarah Jane and Ira thought of Mark as a son and intended to keep him in their fold. They had great empathy for what he was going through, but they were grieving too, especially Sarah Jane. She was spending as much time as she could with Bailey, but it seemed like Mark was pushing his daughter off on other people and not spending time with her himself. She was concerned that Mark might be developing a dependency on alcohol. He often slurred his words when she talked to him on the phone at night.

39:38 He was also seemingly spending money with abandon. He bought a fancy new truck and an expensive computer system. Ira was so worried about Sarah Jane that he sold his business and decided to retire to be able to spend more time with her and their family. They joined a support group, Parents of Murdered Children. Sarah Jane was determined to get control back of her life and started one-on-one sessions with the therapist, too. Rabbi Mike and his wife Jo also had conflicted feelings about their friend. He'd often stop by unannounced for dinner. Joe had recently given birth to their son and wasn't really up for guests. When he wrote the letter thanking the community, the Datses were mildly annoyed. Mark had never thanked them for all that they'd done to support him. One night when Mark stopped by for dinner, Mike was out of town. Mark expressed to Joe how much he missed Donna, that he missed having sex and being touched by a woman. She felt like it was a proposition and it made her very uncomfortable.

40:42 Mark fired Bailey's first nanny for undisclosed reasons. Over the holidays, he allowed Sarah Jane to take Bailey home with her to Florida. Bailey was an easy, happy baby, but traveling alone with an infant was still a lot for Sarah Jane to manage. She encouraged Mark to hire an older, more experienced woman to help with the baby, like Mrs. Doubtfire. Instead, Mark hired Rebecca Simic, an attractive 23-year-old. Rebecca was from the Springfield area and had grown up in a deeply religious family. Her father was a preacher. She quickly became attached to Bailey. Rebecca later said that she remembered Bailey as a remarkably happy, smiley baby, despite everything that she had already been through. I saw a lot of videos, I think it was from 2020, of Rebecca with Bailey, and they were so sweet together. You could tell that she really did love Bailey.

41:35 Mm-hmm. Mark later said that before he'd hired Rebecca, he'd hit rock bottom. He considered taking his own life one night in a hotel room alone with a bottle of Jim Beam. But once Rebecca was in his and Bailey's life, he said everything improved. After bringing Bailey safely home to Springfield after New Year's, Sarah Jane met the new nanny and immediately liked her, despite not wanting to. More importantly, so did Bailey. But Sarah Jane, who was spending the night before returning home, was caught off guard when Mark asked if she would watch the baby for one more night while he and Rebecca went out for a couple of beers. Quietly seething, she said, Sure, no problem.

42:16 Remind me how old Mark is at this point in time? Mark is like 32, 33. Okay. About six months after Donna's death, Mark asked the Datses if they thought it was okay if he invited a woman to go on a trip with him to South Africa. They told him it was a bad idea, that he needed to fully grieve his wife and spend time with his daughter. He partially heeded their advice. He went to South Africa without the woman, but left Bailey behind. Mark's behavior was becoming increasingly erratic and unpredictable. Ira told 48 Hours that one night, Mark called him sobbing. He said that he was hiding under the dining room table because he was afraid someone was going to break into his house and kill him.

42:59 Soon after, during another phone call, Mark told Ira that he was converting to Christianity. He said that he found comfort in the belief that God forgives all sins. The news shocked Donna's family. Mark had always been deeply devoted to Judaism and strongly identified with his Jewish heritage. On May 25, 1996, Donna's family held a small ceremony after her headstone was placed at her gravesite. Mark chose the epitaph, Time gives memories to our lives. Love gives eternity to time. When the service ended, Mark knelt beside Donna's grave, Bailey in his arms, and whispered something to her. Then he stood, removed his wedding ring, placed it on her headstone, and walked back to his car. The others watched with their jaws dropping. Sarah Jane quietly pocketed the ring. It might not have meant anything to Mark anymore, but it still meant something to her. Mark, apparently, was ready to move on.

43:57 Do you feel like that's symbolic? It seems like a strange thing to do. I wouldn't imagine that as a common thing that people would do when their loved one dies. Especially in front of Donna's parents. Right, yeah, it seems almost disrespectful in a way. Absolutely. Sarah Jane could feel Mark pulling away from Donna's family, and she suspected it had something to do with this pretty young nanny who doted on Bailey. Concerned that Mark was moving on too quickly, Sarah Jane wrote him a letter, urging him to give himself time to grieve Donna before becoming involved with someone new. I hope that the love and respect we have nurtured over the years can withstand some loving input. After my divorce, for the first time in four years of being alone, I was able to be in a relationship that time did not rush. Sarah Jane told Mark that she was grateful that she hadn't married the first man who came along after her divorce.

44:51 She had waited and eventually found Ira. Mark, however, wasn't interested in Sarah Jane's advice. In October, a little more than a year after Donna's death, Sarah Jane and Ira came to stay with Bailey for a week while Mark and Rebecca, now clearly a couple, went to Hawaii. Ira felt a little guilty about it, but when Mark was away, his curiosity got the better of him and he snooped through his office. Mark had recently purchased an old farmhouse on four acres in nearby Pleasant Plains. Sarah Jane and Ira were happy for him, but also sad. Fixing up an old farmhouse and filling it with children had always been Donna's dream. Ira was curious how Mark could afford the property. Something felt off about the way he'd been spending money since Donna's death. Ira discovered that Mark had received $ 150, 000 in life insurance money after Donna's death, along with another $ 25, 000 from a state fund for victims of violent crime. Bailey was also receiving monthly Social Security survivor benefits that Ira thought Mark was pocketing. Rebecca and Mark returned with surprising news. While in Hawaii, they'd gotten married.

46:02 I'm actually not surprised. You saw the writing on the wall, didn't you? The Dreshers wondered why they would take such a big step without their families there, especially for Rebecca. It was her first marriage, and She was very close to her family. Still, they tried to push their doubts aside. Bailey had formed a close bond with Rebecca, and the three of them did seem like a happy little family. Mark explained that he hadn't planned on falling in love again so soon. It had just happened. He said that he, Rebecca, and Bailey had all fallen in love with each other. Rebecca was a devout Christian, which gave Donna's family some context for Mark's sudden conversion to Christianity. There was one more surprise.

46:43 Although Sarah Jane and Ira wouldn't learn about it for several months, Rebecca was pregnant. She was due in March with another baby girl. Years later, Rebecca told 20-20 that Mark had told her that he was unable to father children. Donna knew that she had infertility problems. Remember, her doctor had said that the scarring in her fallopian tubes was very severe and didn't think that she would be able to get pregnant naturally. I don't believe Mark had ever been tested. So he lied, basically. Basically he lied, which is disgustingly manipulative to do to a woman. Yeah, that's really awful. In December, the new Winger family moved into their farmhouse in the country. Rebecca officially adopted Bailey. But as Mark settled into his new life, many of Donna's old friends who had supported him after her death began to distance themselves.

47:33 They were uncomfortable with how quickly he'd moved on and found some of his behavior distasteful. Mark's longtime friendship with Rabbi Mike Datz also fell apart. Sarah Jane had gifted Mark a mezuzah for his new home. A mezuzah is a small case containing a piece of parchment inscribed with specific Hebrew verses from the Torah traditionally affixed to the doorpost of a Jewish home. But when Mark asked Mike to hang it, the rabbi refused. Given Mark's conversion to Christianity, Mike felt Mark had not been honest with him about his faith or his intentions. The disagreement exploded into a huge argument, with Mark threatening to sue Mike. By then, Sarah Jane and Ira had become close friends with Mike and his wife Jo. Mark demanded that they end that friendship if they ever wanted to see him, Rebecca, and Bailey again. The Dreschers' visits became less frequent, but Sarah, Jane, and Ira still had great affection for Mark and his new family. although their visits abruptly stopped in the spring of 1988 when the relationship took a drastic turn. Mark sent Sarah Jane a letter and told her that he decided it was in Bailey's best interest not to know anything about Donna. He wanted her to only recognize Rebecca as her mother. Therefore, Sarah Jane and Ira could not be referred to as Grandma and Grandpa, and they must treat both his children equally. The Dreshers were hurt by the letter and the accusation that they'd been favoring Bailey

49:05 over their new baby. Sarah Jane wrote back pleading with Mark not to strip her of the title Grandma Sarah. It was a title she believed that she earned. Iowa was a little saltier in his response, telling Mark that he couldn't run from his past and were him how generous and compassionate Sarah Jane had been with him and his family. Mark responded and doubled down that he wouldn't allow his children to call them grandparents and that the relationship would continue only if they agreed to his terms, and they did not. So yeah, and this is such a devastating situation. Such sweet people, and it meant so much to them to be called grandma and grandpa, and he wanted to take that away from them.

49:45 Yeah, I'm sure they just wanted to be part of their grandchildren's lives to hold on to a little bit of their daughter. Well, and Bailey was their first grandchild, so she meant a lot to them. Yeah, that's really, really awful. Mark never followed through on his threat to sue Mike Datz, but he did file a lawsuit against Boot Heel Area Rapid Transit, or BART, the shuttle service Roger Harrington had worked for at the time of the murders. He also filed a lawsuit against Roger's estate, although there was very little, if anything, for him to recover. Roger had died without any real assets to his name. Mark alleged that Bart should have done a more thorough job of screening Harrington and held the company responsible for Donna's death. Roger had been arrested for domestic battery and burglary, although both charges were later dropped.

50:34 There was also his brief stay in the mental hospital, but his driving record was flawless. The lawsuit pointed out that the owner of BART had Roger call the Wingers to apologize personally, which the lawsuit claimed had escalated the situation between Mark and Roger, ultimately ending with Donna's death. BART pushed back on Mark's description of the shuttle ride, pointing out that despite Donna's concerns about Roger's behavior, she had still given him a generous tip. Not so sure a generous tip means a whole lot in that situation. Like that could just be, I'm really thankful to get out of here. Please go away and leave me alone. While being deposed, the owner of BART, Ray Duffy, had a different version of events. Duffy said that Mark insisted on talking to Roger Harrington to personally tell him to leave his family alone. Duffy testified, he said, I'm not going to be mean and yell at him. I just want to talk to him. During his deposition, Mark spoke about how losing Donna drastically changed his life. Quote, When detectives Charlie Cox and Doug Williamson heard the news from Mark Winger that he had married the nanny, their hackles were again raised. They just didn't trust him. This time, they both went to their boss and pleaded their case to look into Winger's phone records. They were again denied.

52:01 Charlie and Doug would not give up, and if Mark Winger was smart, he would sleep with one eye open because the detectives were watching and waiting. So Mark went back a second time to the Springfield Police Department to talk to the detectives. And I don't know why he would have done that if the case was closed, right? Yeah, there would be no reason for him to do that. But Mark appeared to be thriving. He was now the head of the Department of Nuclear Safety's remote monitoring section, making a salary of $ 62, 000 a year. And later, in 1988, Rebecca and Mark welcomed their third daughter. But things were about to change. The lawsuit between Bart and Mark Winger hadn't gone to trial, although things appeared to be moving toward a settlement in the spring of 1999. Out of the blue, Ray Duffy, owner of the small family-owned company, received an anonymous call from a woman who said she had information about Mark Winger and was going to the police.

53:02 She told him he should wait before making any deals with Winger. Detectives Cox and Williamson were contacted by the woman's attorney to arrange a meeting. They were salivating at the thought that they might finally get more evidence against Mark. New leadership at the Springfield Police Department had also given them the go-ahead to subpoena Winger's phone records. And what the records would reveal was very interesting. And that, my friends, is where we are going to end part one. You're just going to leave us hanging on that cliffhanger? You know it. Do you have any guesses who this mystery witness is? You have met them. Okay. I don't know. Maybe his first nanny?

53:43 That's exactly what I thought. Really? But it's not? You're not going to tell us? I'm not going to say. That's really very rude of you, but okay. I have a few questions for you. There's not a lot of discussion, I don't think, in part one. But why would Donna open the door to Roger Harrington if she was scared of him, right? Yeah, she wouldn't. I wouldn't think. And there was no sign of forced entry. Yeah, the whole thing is not adding up, obviously. Do you think that Mark marrying Rebecca was a red flag? I mean, it's not a green flag for sure. I mean, he's much older than her. His wife. That much older than her. I mean, okay. Less than 10 years. We'll put that aside. But yeah, his wife was just brutally murdered. It's a very short time to do that.

54:30 I mean, it happens. The episode of 2020 that I watched about this case, Rebecca was featured on it. And she talked about how she and Mark first got together. And Mark was pretty manipulative to her, I believe, because she was a young woman. Mm-hmm. But she said that Mark told her when she asked, you know, how are you ready to move on so quickly? And he said, well, once you're in a happy marriage, it's hard to be not in a happy marriage. So, you know, it makes you more likely to want to be with someone again. Okay. I know. That's a little bit of a weak explanation, but okay. Yeah. And she said that he really was the perfect husband, the perfect father. And, you know, we'll see in part two whether his mask slips a little bit or not.

55:18 Do you have any questions about Mark's version of events? Do you believe it happened the way he said it happened? I mean, I don't believe his version of events, but I also, when you first started telling the story, you know, it does seem very plausible that she was on this drive with a shuttle driver who was erratic and scaring her because it sounds like they actually reported it. So All of that adds up, but obviously there's some things that don't add up, you know, after what happened. Were you surprised that the police ruled it, the case closed so quickly? I'm honestly not because it did seem like a fairly cut and dried case. Obviously, they should have gone a little bit deeper. They should have looked at phone records and things like that early on. But I'm not too surprised because it seems like, you know, you come in, you see the situation, you've got the complaint on file about this driver. So you could sort of see how they would look at it and say, yeah, it's pretty cut and dry.

56:15 Do you feel like over the last 30 years that police have become more suspicious about husbands? Because there's so many husband-wife crimes. Like, if this happened today, would they act differently? I mean, I don't... I mean, husbands and wives have been killing each other as. Long as time. I know. I was going to say, that's not a recent phenomenon. I think they've always known that the first place you're going to look. I just think in this situation, it didn't seem suspicious at first. It seemed like... you know, you've got this guy in the house and you've got a hammer, you've got, you know, it just seemed like it was probably like, yeah, that's probably what happened. So they didn't really bother looking any further. Well, you know, there's a part two. So, you know, there's more to come. And the police did miss something fairly significant in the investigation.

56:58 Interesting. I think the whole police situation is interesting to me because it seems like every cop show you watch has this sort of plot line where the cops are like, no, we need to look further. And their bosses are like, no, the case is closed. Move on. You can't be wasting time on it. Yeah, but it did literally happen that way in this case. Do you think that Mark's conversion to Christianity is significant? I mean, it is because he literally said Christians are more forgiving. Yeah, that sort of maybe tells you something there. I guess my thought was that he converted because he's in love with this, you know, the nanny and she's Christian. So he wants to convert. But yeah, the fact that he Mention that about the forgiving aspect of it does make you wonder a little.

57:41 Yeah, but I think you're right. Rebecca obviously played a big part in his conversion too. Well, if you want to listen to part two right now, join us on Patreon. Go to patreon.com slash lovemerrykill. Guess what? What? It is our four-year podcast anniversary this week. That is so hard to believe. October 1st, 2022 was the first episode that we released. It's just so mind-boggling to me that we've been doing this. For four years. I think we do this every year, but I feel like it's really important to recognize anniversaries and happy things and your accomplishments in life. So I do have a few questions. I have four questions for four years. Are you ready?

58:34 I am ready, sure. What is the one case that you can't forget? There are quite a few that stick with me. The one that is top of mind for me right now, and maybe it's because of this case, but it's the Jason Corbett and Molly Martins case. And the only reason I say that is because Molly Martins was his nanny after his wife died. And so it just sort of brought that memory back. But that case was just so heartbreaking and frustrating and angering. And there's just so much about it. Just makes me think about it a lot. In my opinion, that's probably your case that was my favorite. You did a really nice job on that case. How about you? For me, I just think about the Hart family and I start tearing up. That was just a brutal one.

59:19 And of course, Shanann and Chris Watts too. Those are probably the two that break my heart the most. Yeah. Yeah. And those were both, I did those both, I think in our first year and I bet I would do a much better job on them now. I'm not so sure about that. I don't know what that means, but okay. What was the moment that made you realize that people were actually listening to our podcast? I mean, there were, there've been a lot of moments along the way that were like that. The one that comes to mind though, is when my friend Dave was in Australia and he told me that he was talking to a waitress at a cafe and And he mentioned my friend has a true crime podcast. And she asked which one. And he told her. And she was like, I love Love, Marry, Kill. It's one of my favorite podcasts.

1:00:03 That was so just mind boggling to me that that could happen. I've had a few experiences like that too. And like, um, like friends that are nurses have, you know, told people to listen to them and like, Oh yeah, I already listened to that podcast. And I think people in our lives sometimes, not that we're, we're not crime junkie by any stretch of the imagination. We're still a growing independent podcast. We're still a mom and pop podcast, but you know, it does surprise. I think people in our lives that we're actually doing okay at this. What is one thing about podcasting that you never expected? Really just how much time and effort go into. Honestly, I mean, it sounds like I'm being a little self-serving, but it really, it's a really, you know, massive thing to get into and research a case and write a script for it.

1:00:49 Well, the responsibility that we feel to the victims, I feel like that is pretty overwhelming and daunting sometimes. Yeah, I think we both feel that a lot. And so that's why we tend to go deep and we tend to spend a lot of time on research because we really want to get it right. We don't always, we still make mistakes, but I think we try our best not to. I think for me, the most surprising thing has been the generosity of the lovely people who listen to us. They're so kind and generous, except for the person who called us gross this week, but I'm going to let that go. But no, honestly, the community that we've built and the people that reach out to us and support us and encourage us and, You are all the wind beneath our wings, literally. And we really do genuinely appreciate you.

1:01:37 It is so overwhelming when I think about all the support that we have. But literally from the first day when 17 people listened, that was even a shock to me. You know, as we keep going, I always say, you know, even if one person likes the episode or one person is listening, you know, that's enough for me. And my last question, what have we gotten wrong? Is there anything that you really regret? I mean. It's so dumb, but there are so many things like mispronunciations that drive me crazy that I'm like, oh, I can't believe. Oh, yeah. Do you want to give yourself? Well, this was a Patreon exclusive episode, the last one I did, and it was set in Ireland. And in Ireland, the police are called Garda or Gardi. And I was, I pronounced it Gardai the whole time.

1:02:22 And you told me how to pronounce it. So I listened to you. I just thought I had it right. So I was like, I didn't even think, things like that just drive me crazy. I can't think of anything. We try our very best. Yeah. I can't think of anything major that we've gotten wrong or that, you know, a big mistake other than pronunciations. I'm sure there are things though. Well, I think one thing we've talked about recently because we changed our opening, like whether we regret starting, making the podcast personal. And we still don't. There's a lot that we don't talk about. But honestly, if we were to start over today, because we do get a lot of negative feedback about the banter and talking about our vacations and adding the snack. And I feel like that's why we started Just the Facts. you know, the second version of the podcast.

1:03:07 But it does sometimes feel a little bit weird, like having this, you know, lighthearted discussion. And then, but in some ways, I think it's people appreciate it. I know we get a lot of good feedback about it too, because, you know, we're talking about really sad and tragic and horrible stories. And so it's nice to break it up a little bit and also have, you know, some lighthearted chit chat as well. We try to keep it pretty separate and, you know, distinct from the story. But yeah, it definitely is something we have talked about a lot and debated a lot of how we should do this. Well, and adding the snack actually sometimes adds a lot of work to us too. But we're not complaining. I feel like if we dropped the snack at this point, people would probably not be very happy with us.

1:03:49 I really like the fact that we've gotten to try a lot of things that we maybe wouldn't have tried otherwise. It's fun to me to be able to do that. But yeah, it is. It is fun, but I'm just like, how did we get here? And why do we don't, whatever. We just, I think I have, At least another year in me. What do you think? I think I'll sign on for another year, sure. Yeah. After that, we might reevaluate. Who knows? We'll reevaluate all the time. But, you know, so far, so good. Well, thank you to Cosmo, our number one fan, for listening through this episode. I think it's so sweet when the cats sit in here and they just nap to us, you know, talking in our voices. Well, it's funny, too, because Cosmo has, for a lot of the episode, he was sitting on the beanbag chair, which is sort of behind you and to your left.

1:04:33 And honestly, when you've been talking and he has just been staring at you the whole time and it's just it's a little bit creepy, but it's also kind of sweet. He was probably willing me to pet him. Yeah, I think maybe he was. I talked a little bit about the Patreon exclusive episode that I did recently about the Springfield Three in Springfield, Missouri. And our listener friend Jess told me that it was a huge opportunity that we missed when we didn't talk about Bart Simpson. Oh, yeah. And because there was a Bart in that case. And in this case, we have a nuclear engineer. Yeah, exactly. And we have the Bart shuttle system and they're in Springfield. So. Wow. We'll talk more about this in our next episode. But I don't want Jess or anyone else to think that we are going to miss this opportunity again to talk about The Simpsons.

1:05:20 I'll look forward to that. Well, once again, thank you all for listening. And thank you all so much for hanging out with us and for your continued support. We truly, truly appreciate it. And until next time. Don't kill your husband. And don't kill your wife. Thank you. Thank you.