Dr. Shirley Turner and Dr. Andrew Bagby

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's that. Some days you'll feel like killing your. Wife, and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to Love Mary Kill. Hey Rich, Hey Tina, How are you? I am doing great? How are you doing great? Because the sun is shining or snow is almost melted, and it's it's like it's fifty four degrees here in Dexter, Michigan. I'm actually doing great because I'm flying to Florida tomorrow.

0:42 But it is nice outside. Yeah, it does make you feel a little better. Just a quick reminder, if you don't want to listen to us prattle on for five to six minutes, then you can listen to Love Mary Kill just the facts, same case, but without the snacks and without the banter. Where are you going in Florida? I am going to Tampa Ah. I don't know if I've ever been to Tampa, actually, but I'm sure it's warm and sunny, which will be nice. It's going to be warm and sunny here, so so Ladi, I bet. It won't be quite as warm, but there will be fewer alligators. Here than there, I'm guessing. Also, speaking of alligators, we got a new toaster this week. Sorry, I just wanted to tell everyone about our new toaster. And I know that no, but that was a really big decision in our lives. I have been feeling like we talked about this earlier in the year, but empty nesters essentially now, and it was a big decision whether we go from a two slice to a for slice.

1:38 And I'm going to be honest with you, I think lately I've been struggling a little bit with missing our kids because we don't really see them that often, and I think I've been feeling a little melancholy. So you were so nice when you were like, I think we should get the two slice, and I was like, I feel like that's too big of a decision to make. I need four slice toaster because it's going to make me feel like, you know, an old woman with you know, just a two sliced toaster. So that was a big decision. Well, you did a good job, really well. You said we should go with the four sliced toaster, so we did. I'm not going to tell you which one we got because. It's a beautiful machine. Though I spent way too much on it though, because I went with the pretty one.

2:18 Well, it's really nice. It is beautiful. Yeah, all right, I got the Smeg. We got the Smeg. I don't. I'm assuming other people know what that means. I don't really, I've never heard of the smeag. I think the ladies know what we mean by this Smeg. It's not a very pleasant sounding brand name, but it's a very beautiful toaster. I have a snack today for you that one of our sweet listeners sent us. Oh, I always love listeners sent snacks. Jody from Pennsylvania sent these snacks and we feel kind of bad because a lot of times we have stuff planned. And when we did the Menanda's episodes, this were three in a row, and so Jody sent us a couple two or three weeks ago, and it probably should have been eaten right away, but we didn't eat them right away. I already had one spoiler alert. They are still delicious.

2:58 But Jody sent us walnut kiffles from Pennsylvania Dunge Dutch Land. I've never heard of a kiffle before. It looks kind of like a klachis is that how you say? Like it's a rolled kind of cookie and these are walnut and they look like they're Jody. They held up great, Like I'm kind of surprised that they they're all still break it all. Yeah, would you like to try it? What did you think of a walnut kiffles? Oh? They were really good. It was so nice of you, Jody to send those along. They were really tasty. And I really like the outside, the coating the pastry or whatever that it sort of wrapped around.

3:39 I like the walnut filling. I thought it was really good. If you would like to see what we're eating, you can go to Kiffl Kitchen Kiffle with ki f f l e Kitchen dot com and you can see all of their offerings. I'm going to read you just a little bit of what a kiffle is. It's the same thing as a kifful. It's a pastry that has origins as a crescent shaped role developed in Austria in the late seventeenth century. Legend has it that when the Turks from the Ottomanire tried to invade Austria through tunnels, they were discovered by bakers who were working through the night. The bakers alerted the townspeople who flooded the tunnels and saved Austria. To celebrate their victory, the bakers made rolls in the shape of the crescent moon of the Turkish flag.

4:22 In actual fact, Polish troops helped repel the Turks out of Austria. And that pissant you think came from France is actually a variation of the Kiffel. I learned so much. When we record our episodes. We sure do. Thanks again, Jody, much appreciated. Well. Today's case is a devastatingly sad case. I need to give a content warning that it does deal with the death of a young child. This case was recommended by Amanda from Texas. So there's a very famous documentary about this case called Dear Zachary, So you might if you haven't watched that documentary, you might want to watch it before you listen to this episode, because I mean, we'll tell the the whole story, and obviously there will be spoilers.

5:02 I watched it. Usually we don't share with each other the case before we do, but you recommended that maybe I should watch it, and I did, And I also recommend it just because it really gives you a sense of who the people involved are and were, and just it really helps you get to know the people. I'm not playing any clips in today's episode, but when you watch the documentary, you get to see, you know, the visuals, and you get to hear the voices and understand, Like you said, the people that we're talking about today, well, today's case is doctor Shirley Turner and doctor Andrew Bagbee. On Saturday, November three, two thousand and one, twenty eight year old Andrew Bagbee drove his on again, off again girlfriend of two years, doctor Shirley Turner, to the Latrobe Airport in Latrobe, Pennsylvania. He just ended their tumultuous relationship, this time for good, over lunch before she headed back to her apartment in Council Bluffs, Iowa. The pair had met in medical school at Memorial University of new Land.

6:00 Forty eight hours later on Monday morning, as Andrew was leaving for his shift at the Latrobe Hospital, he was surprised when Shirley reappeared on the doorstep of his apartment. She'd driven for sixteen hours overnight from Council Bluffs to Latrobe. Andrew left her at his apartment and went to the hospital, they agreed to meet up at a park after he was done with work. He told his friend and chief resident doctor Clark Simpson, the psychotic bitch was on my doorstep this morning, but he assured his friend that everything was fine and he'd send Shirley on her way. Later that night, he made plans to meet up at Clark's apartment after seven pm. At five, Andrew headed to Keystone Park in his black Toyota Corolla. Later, an eyewitness reported seeing two dark colored vehicles parked side by side in the parking lot just after six PM, a Toyota Corolla and a Toyota rav four. The next morning, just after sunrise, Andrew's body was discovered by a man who was searching for a bertrain ernables in the park. Andrew was found lying face down in the gravel, still wearing scrubs, near the boat launch, a layer of frost blanketing him. He'd been shot five times with a twenty two semi automatic handgun, and he also suffered blunt force trauma to his head.

7:16 He was shot once in the left cheek, once in the left side of his chest, twice in the rear after he'd fallen to the ground. And finally in the back of the head, with the gun pressed against his skull, singing his hair. Andrew's devastating murder was the first in a tragic sequence that would continue to unfold and weighs no one could yet imagine. David Franklin Bagbee met his wife, Kathleen Daphne Barnard, soon after he was discharged from the Navy in nineteen sixty seven. She was from the English countryside of Devon in Shatham, England, a landscape of rolling green hills, ancient moorland, and dramatic coastline where quiet villages sit between farmland and sea. It feels both pastoral and elemental, shaped by weather, history and a slower, more insular rhythm of life. She was in the US working as a traveling nurse midwife. Neither was looking for a long term relationship.

8:09 In fact, Kate had stubbornly insisted she'd never marry, but after their first day to Disneyland, they realized they'd met their match. After four months, David proposed and they were married just weeks later in March nineteen sixty eight in Compton, California, when David was nearly done with his engineering degree, at cal State Long Beach, they decided to start a family. After trying for nearly two years spent in a cycle of hope and frustration, Kate became pregnant on September twenty fifth, nineteen seventy three. Andrew David Bagbee was born in San Diego, California. He was the only child for Kate and David, but they were content and fulfilled with Andrew their successful careers and a close network of friends and family. Kate worked as an obgyn nurse practitioner and David as a computer engineer.

9:00 I'm just going to say, from watching the documentary, they just seem like great people. You would love them. If you watch the documentary, you'll just love Kate and David. Yeah, a great couple, right, I mean. They just seem like they fit together very well, and they both are good people in their own. Right, very good people. Andrew was a good student and made friends easily. He became an Eagle Scout at age fifteen. From a young age, he set his sites on being a doctor. He went to the University of California at Irvine, majoring in biology, but failed to get into any medical school post graduation. Disappointed, but undeterred, he applied to sixty medical schools the following year while working as a researcher at Stanford University. His perseverance paid off when he was accepted to Memorial University of Newfoundland in Saint John's for entry.

9:47 In the fall of nineteen ninety six, he proposed to his girlfriend, Heather, his high school sweetheart, and together they drove over four thousand miles to their new home in Canada, but sadly they ended their engagement after their first year together in Newfoundland, but remained close friends for the rest of Andrew's life. Kate and David adored her and also maintained their relationship with her after the breakup. Despite his magnetic presence, Andrew was insecure in romantic relationships. When his engagement crumbled, it left a wound that never quite healed. My impression of Andrew after watching the documentary is just somebody who's so full of life. He just had so much going on and just you could just tell you was just a really outgoing, friendly person, had so many friends and just seemed like a lovely person.

10:34 Yeah, this case makes me a little raw and emotional, but he reminds me of your friend Kevin a little bit mm hmm. Yeah. Definitely someone who just made friends really easily and someone who everyone adored. Well. He was best man in seven different friends' weddings, which I think is really telling. And again that reminds me of your friend Kevin who passed away a couple of years ago, and you gave one of the eulogies. He was the best man at our wedding, but he was also the best man at the other guy who gave the other eulogies. So anyway, that was really touching. But Andrews struck me as the life of the party. Yes. Shirley Jane Turner's parents met when her father was stationed in Saint Anthony, Newfoundland. After his deployment, he and his new wife went to Kansas together, his native state. Together, they had four children. Shirley Jane was born in Wichita, Kansas, in January nineteen sixty one. After her parents divorced, she and her three siblings moved with her mother, a Canadian citizen, to the small rural village of Daniels Harbor in Newfoundland, where they lived in extreme poverty, supported by government services.

11:38 Shirley and her siblings all held dual citizenship. She was highly intelligent, and from an early age aspired to become a doctor. She was drawn to science and motivated by the promise of the financial stability she had lacked growing up. At age sixteen, she enrolled at Sir Wilfrid Grenfell College. Her friends recalled that she was quick witted, excepttionally bright, engaged, and always at the top of her classes, but also a little bit of an odd duck, never quite fitting in. In nineteen eighty she transferred to Memorial University of Newfoundland to study chemistry with the goal of becoming a doctor. After discovering she was pregnant in late nineteen eighty one, she married her long term boyfriend, a welder, and returned to the university to finish out the year. Her son was born in July nineteen eighty two. She continued at the university for another year before she and her little family moved to Labrador City. Shirley put off her medical training and took a job as a chemistry teacher in Deer Lake, Newfoundland, even though she was just credit shy of obtaining her chemistry degree. In nineteen eighty five, she gave birth to a daughter, her husband stayed home with their children while she continued teaching. In nineteen eighty eight, she divorced her husband after reconnecting with a former high school boyfriend, a fisherman, with whom she had carried on a month's long affair. They married and had another daughter in March nineteen ninety They separated soon after, but didn't officially divorce until nineteen ninety seven. In nineteen ninety three, Shurley,

13:10 thirty two, returned to Memorial University to finish her undergraduate degree, swearing off marriage and long term relationships to focus on her education and career. She rented a small apartment with the three children. Her most recent ex husband helped care for the children. In October nineteen ninety three, Shirley was reported to Social Services, accused of abusing her two older children, then eight and eleven. In the fall of nineteen ninety four, the two older children moved in with their grandmother, who lived next door to their father, and the fishermen took custody of his daughter. Shirley was free to start medical school. During the next several years, she intermittently had custody of her children. In May nineteen ninety eight, at age thirty seven, Shirley earned her medical degree and began a two year residency program. In her residency, Shirley was notoriously difficult, clashing with senior doctors and nurses alike. This abrasive behavior was paired with a pattern of unreliability. She missed nine days of a three month rotation, which was unheard of for a medical resident, and Shirley was often caught in her own lives. One supervising doctor wrote in their review of her, I felt I was being manipulated whenever I spoke with Shirley Turner. When negative items would come up, she would change the topic to one of my failings. She could be charming, friendly, and lively, but when caught in an untruth, she would become angry, accusatory, and loud. I always felt

14:41 Shirley Turner was putting on a show, as if she were playing the role, but had no feeling for her work. I cannot recall a trainee like Shirley Turner in that her approach lacked personal commitment, and her relationships with people seemed, at least to me to be superficial when compared to the over four hundred residents I have super during the past twenty one years, so. What you know of surely doesn't that description sound it's just such a good description of her. Yeah, it does seem like a really fitting description, and I'm thinking of other We covered the case of doctor Anthony Pignataro a while ago. He was a doctor and there were similar comments when he went through his residency as well. And it's just just such a red flag when someone is working to become a doctor, and those type of personality traits are that obvious, right.

15:28 She was a master manipulator and a gas lighter, as was doctor Pignataro, And you know those are those are qualities that matter and should make you ineligible to become a doctor, even if you're capable of doing the work right. If you don't have you know, empathy and the other attributes that are important to a doctor, let's makes. Really big problems. Yeah, another supervising doctor wrote, you might say doctor Turner was a manipulative, guiltless psychopath, which is the medical term I would use. But at the time we recognized that she was not always telling the truth about where she was all the time, and she would, when confronted, gradually escalate her response to a confrontation, but we never thought about having her assessed by a psychiatrist.

16:13 It rarely comes to that in residency. People with major psychoses are usually picked up in medical school. Despite her negative reviews, in the summer of two thousand, Shirley completed her residency and became a fully licensed physician. So surely I would describe her as she is an attractive woman, but looks kind of like a librarian. She's small and mousy looking. Do you think that's fair. Yeah, I'd say that's fair. Which I think that I mentioned her appearance just because I think it helped her get away with certain things. And she had a nice, calm voice and a manner of speaking that made her seem that she was kind and nice and she wasn't really gaslighting, ye she was.

16:53 Yeah, Yeah, that makes sense. I think it does help too to paint the picture. Sureley had sworn off relationships, but in nineteen ninety six she began seeing a man who soon after relocated to Halifax for a new job. He wasn't interested in continuing their relationship long distance, but Shirley continued to call him and even made the twenty two hour drive to see him. Several times, her visits were unwelcome and menacing. This continued for the next year and a half. After he moved to Pennsylvania. He expected her to leave him alone, but one night he returned to his apartment to find her unconscious outside his door, with a suicide note in hand and instructions how to handle her estate. He called an ambulance. Shirley had swallowed an entire bottle of Unissam, thirty two tablets and forty two tablets of nausine, and over the counter non drowsy chewable medication designed to quickly relieve nausea and upset stomach.

17:50 She also ingested a twenty ounce bottle of pepsicola and a bag of potato chips. Though we should never question someone's intent during a suicide attempt, some experts later speculated that the substances involved were not expected to be immediately fatal, and noted that the actions were taken by someone with medical training. If her intent was to truly end her life, she had access to more deadly medications. The next day, the man received a voicemail on his work phone, doctor Turner died last night. He recognized the voice and thought it was surely attempting to disguise her voice. For months afterward, she left him messages threatening to kill him. Soon she met Andrew Bagbie and moved on, but the ex boyfriend was so rattled by her disturbing and threatening behavior that he slept with an axe near his bed for several months afterward.

18:42 We talked about this earlier, but surely seemed like an odd duct to me. But she always wanted love and companionship, and she really did want to fit in. I think she had a hard time with close knit relationships, friendships and romantic partnerships. She just wasn't successful in people. Okay, in some of these behaviors are really they really come across as desperate. I guess driving twenty two hours and just showing up at someone's doorstep. And then you know when someone. Not getting the hint, when someone wants to end the. Relationship exactly, We'll be back after a break.

19:23 Shirley Turner met Andrew Bagbee in the spring of nineteen ninety nine at Memorial University. Shirley was a resident in the family Medicine program and Andrew a third year medical student. They started as friends and then dated casually Surely, twice divorced with three children, was twelve years Andrew senior. That summer, when Andrew was in California with his family, Shirley called often, and there was no easy way to get her off the phone. Kate and David began screening their phone calls to avoid her frequent calls. At the end of the summer, she visited California, and Kate and David or pleasant enough, but didn't understand why their son, in his twenties would be interested in a much older woman. Andrew assured his parents that the relationship wasn't serious. That following Christmas, Surely asked if she and her children, aged eighteen, fifteen, and ten could stay with the Bagbes while they visited Disneyland.

20:20 They were happy to host them, but a little surprised a woman they barely knew would ask such a large favor, but, as they'd come to discover, Surely had a hard time understanding boundaries. The next summer, she once again called the Bagbies and asked if she could stay for a few days with her friends and their infant. They again agreed. We talked about this earlier, but the Bagbies were amazingly kind and generous people. The visit was strained as Shirley felt more comfortable in their presence this time and was prone to inappropriate outbursts and mood swings. Andrew graduated from Memorial in May two thousand. He set his sights on Syracuse, New York, for his residency in surgical medicine. Shirley had graduated from her residency and took a job in Iowa, leaving her three children in Canada, rarely seeing them or supporting them financially. Her initial salary was one hundred and seventy thousand dollars or about three hundred and twenty thousand dollars today. It seemed like she should have enough money to support her family, but she kind of just left them in Canada with her father's Although her two oldest children, one of them was an adult at this point, I think, but he was in college. Yeah, and her second oldest daughter was almost an adult.

21:32 And still she was making good money and living in Iowa. The cost of living is pretty reasonable there as well, so you would think. She could have I hope that she would have sent more money back to them. Yeah. Friends described this as a very difficult time in Andrew's life. He didn't love being in Syracuse or being a surgical residence. Surely, and Andrew continued to see each other despite living one thousand miles apart. Over the next fourteen months, Shirley visited him seven times, while he traveled to Iowa only once. During one trip, Shirley was the last to leave the apartment and accidentally left the door unlocked, or so she claimed. When Andrew returned, several items were missing from his apartment, including a laptop and a palm pilot. Later, it was discovered that Shirley had given her son Andrew's laptop and told him that Andrew wanted him to have it. A boy.

22:20 Remind me what a palm pilot is? Was that like a black It was like. Before a BlackBerry. Yeah, it was like a personal I don't think it was a phone, but it was like a personal organizer, Yeah, calendar type of thing. Unhappy in Syracuse, Andrew moved to Latrobe, Pennsylvania, to begin a residency in family medicine. It was a much better fit for him. He made friends quickly and loved the small town. Do you know anything about Latrobe? The only thing I know is rolling rock beer. You are correct, the Trobe, Pennsylvania, was the birthplace of Fred Rogers, the lifelong home of golf legend Arnold Palmer, and the nineteen oh four site where the banana split was in VENTAA For decades, it was also the home of rolling Rockbier, cementing this small town's place in American history.

23:04 On October sixth Shirley applied for a gun permit, claiming that she felt unsafe in the United States. A few days later, she purchased a twenty two caliber semi automatic handgun and took three classes on how to handle the gun. Her instructor noticed that Shirley's gun was faulty. The gun had a habit of spitting out an extra bullet every time it was fired. He encouraged her to trade it in for a new one, but she resisted. On October twentieth, two thousand and one, Shirley traveled to Pennsylvania to accompany Andrew to the wedding of his friends Marcy and Carl. Heather, Andrew's ex girlfriend, called, and Shirley answered. She told Heather that she was pregnant what was considering ending the pregnancy.

23:44 Shirley wasn't pregnant, but soon would be. She returned to her home in Iowa for a few days before she flew again to La Trobe and stayed with Andrew until November three. The visit was tense and they argued through much of it. Andrew was up front with Shirley, telling her that he dated other women. Shirley preferred a kind of unspoken don't ask, don't tell arrangement, but it was clear she was not comfortable with Andrew seeing other women. The exact status of their relationship was murky, but Shirley's actions suggested she was not okay sharing him. She contacted two women she suspected Andrew was dating and left messages for both. In one she warned that doctor Bagbee hurt people, and the other she cautioned the woman that Andrew was also seeing a beautiful blonde and November third, when Andrew took Shirley to the airport, he ended their relationship over lunch.

24:35 He had a date scheduled that night with one of the women. After dropping Shirley off, he stopped at the drug store and bought a box of condoms and placed the receipt in his wallet, But unfortunately, Andrew was stood up and the date never happened. I don't think Sureley and Andrew were ever exclusive, but she did have this don't ask, don't tell policy, I don't want to know about the other women. But then she found out about the other women and acted inappropriately for the status of their relationship, right, And I believe he tried to break up with her all the time and said, I don't want to see you anymore. But yeah, she somehow always found a way to weasele back into his life. Do you think in Andrew's mind it was just a casual like relationship, but in her mind it was something more?

25:16 Or do you think she led him to believe that it was also just a casual thing. You know, I don't know. I think that she played on his insecurities a little bit, Okay, because we talked about how you know, he after his engagement broke up. I think he was a really cute guy and you know, very affable, likee. A lot of people have insecurities, even if they seem that way, you know to everyone else. Yeah, but this woman had just stood him up. But I wonder if Shirley's phone calls might have made her. Oh, might have scared her off. Yeah, she might have been like, oh, this is too much drama for me. Yeah, and this is where back where we started from. After being home for about twenty four hours, Shirley again left her home in Council Bluffs at one pm on Sunday and began this sixteen hour drive to Latrobe. It's unclear what prompted her to make the drive. She was scheduled to start a new job the next day. She called her employer from the road and complained of a migraine and said she wouldn't be in the next morning, but should be better by Tuesday, November seventh, and she would report for her shift. Then she arrived in Latrobe at five thirty a m. Waking Andrew.

26:23 He was shocked to see her so soon, but agreed to have a final conversation with her that evening at Keystone Park. She spent the day in his apartment while he split his time between the hospital and a clinicy worke Dad in nearby Saltzburg. Some time between five twenty seven and six ten p m. Confirmed by cell phone records, Andrew arrived at Keystone Park, where Shirley was waiting for him. An eye witnessed who was hunting in the area. Recalled seeing two vehicles side by side in the park at six ten, but no one was inside the vehicles. I think they may have gone for a walk. The next morning, Andrew's body was discovered face down after daybreak. There wasn't much evidence, but one unspent bullet lay next to his body.

27:06 I do remember. Do you remember that Shirley's gun was faulty and would eject a bullet that was unspent. Yes. Meanwhile, Shirley raced to return to Iowa before a ten thirty appointment with the patient. She called the office to let them know that she'd be late. She stopped home and took a quick shower before she arrived at work at eleven a m. She called the Bagbes several times that day to ask if they'd spoken to their son. She was worried about him, She claimed something about The calls from Shirley left Kate Bagbee feeling unsettled. She went about her day until she received a call from a police officer in her hometown of Sunnyvale, California to call the coroner's office in Greensburg, Pennsylvania. She was told that her son was dead under suspicious circumstances, she fell to the ground. Unable to process the devastating news. She called David at work and screamed into the phone. Andrew's dead.

27:59 He's been ordered. Friends helped them through the first hours, making travel arrangements and packing for them. These first days were marked by unrelenting grief, pain and tears. Kate and David quietly decided that they'd bury Andrew and then take their own lives. There was no reason to continue on without him. But when they traveled to Pennsylvania, they were surrounded by the compassion of Andrew's friends and colleagues at Latrobe Hospital, along with the quiet support of law enforcement. Seeing the depth of love for Andrew from across the globe was enough to pull them back from the edge of death. But just beneath the surface of their grief, rage boiled, especially for David. Between waves of tears, his thoughts constantly circled back to Andrew's killer. Please kept the Bagbies up to date on the investigation, but the Bagbies already had a suspect in mind. Five memorial services were held for Andrew in La Trope, California, Newfoundland, England, and Missouri.

28:58 Famed pathologists Cyril Weckt performed Andrew's autopsy. He determined that he had been shot five times, once in the face, once in the head, once in the chest, and twice in the buttocks. Andrew also sustained blunt force trauma to the head, consistent with having been kicked. Doctor Weckt ruled the cause of death to be multiple gunshot wounds and the manner of death a homicide. Almost immediately, doctor Shirley Turner was a suspect. She must have known because she quickly hired an attorney. A Pennsylvania state trooper, Randall Gardner, called her to inform her of Andrew's death. Shirley expressed shock. Are you sure, she asked. She said that the last time she had seen Andrew was on Saturday, before her departure at the airport. She then gave the officer a completely false alibi. She claimed that on Sunday she had gone to the zoo, seen a movie riding in cars with boys, and picked up McDonald's for dinner. Later that evening, she said she'd developed a migraine that forced her to call off work for the next day, and she had spent all of Monday in bed. She admitted to owning a firearm, but said she wasn't one hundred percent sure where it was. Officer Gardner requested that Shirley be ready to hand the gun over to her local police officers, who were about to pay a visit to her home.

30:14 When the officers arrived, she told them that the gun was missing and had likely been stolen from her car. She didn't mention that Andrew had broken things off with her. She had a trip planned to Latrobe for the end of November. On November ninth, a search warrant was executed at Shirley's apartment. She had called Officer Gardner that morning and changed her story. She told him that she had lied that she had given her gun to Andrew and Latrobe and left it in his apartment. In Shirley's bathroom, investigators found an empty box of condoms in the trash, the same brand listed on a receipt recovered from Andrew's wallet. The police have no idea why this box, how this box of condoms got there, I mean, other than Shirley some Why would she have picked that up and brought it back to her, I don't know.

31:00 On November twelfth, she left behind her life in Iowa, including her car and most of her possessions, and flew to Toronto. She bought a round trip ticket with a return date of November thirtieth, but she never again set foot in the United States. Shirley told people that she had fled to Canada because she was afraid that Andrew's murderer would find her and murder her too. But remember, Shirley was a talker. She had a compulsive need to insert herself into the lives of those around her, often in ways that felt intrusive and unwelcome. In the days following the murder, she reached out to Andrew's friends, who she considered to be her friends too, to discuss the tragedy.

31:40 The problem was her lack of a consistent script. She was telling different versions of the same story to different people, and the lies were beginning to overlap. It was this inability to maintain a singular narrative that first started raising alarm bells among those who knew Andrew best. When they compared notes. Within a few days, Shirley admitted that she had been in Pennsylvania on the day of Andrew's death. She even admitted that she had met him in the park and handed over her gun to him. She explained to one of his friends that he had called her and asked her to bring the gun to him. She claimed that Andrew had accepted the gun and put it in his trunk before she drove off into the night. She blamed her shifting story on the sedatives that she had been taking since Andrew's murder. This story is just so full.

32:27 Of holes, and it makes no sense that she would drive one thousand miles to deliver her gun to him. No, none of it. He had no reason to want this gun. Yeah, it seems pretty obvious what happened here. Kate and David Bagbee stayed in Latrobe for two weeks during the initial stages of the investigation. Andrew's friends offered them friendship, support and meals. As they drove back to their home in California, the police encouraged them to reach out to Shirley to ask her to attend the memorial service for Andrew, hoping to get her back in the United States. By now, the Bagbies were almost certain that Shirley had killed their son. They knew exactly who she was, a skilled liar and a masterful manipulator. During one phone call, Shirley dropped a bombshell that changed everything. She told David she was six weeks pregnant with Andrew's child. David's head spun. If true, it was remarkably happy, if not complicated news. But was she actually telling the truth for once? And if she was, was the baby really Andrews. Shirley was over forty, which meant that if there really was a baby, this was a high risk pregnancy from day one, and they needed to treat this with kid gloves, which would be challenging given how they felt about her. On November twenty ninth, two thousand and one, Pennsylvania State Police issued an arrest warrant for Shirley Turner. By then, she had fled her home in Council Bluffs to seek refuge with family in Canada.

33:54 While the physical crime scene offered little, when cell phone data surfaced, it tied her directly to the lotion of Andrew's body. The US immediately moved to begin the extradition process. The US and Canada have a longstanding extradition treaty, one of the most cooperative and friendly cross border law enforcement relationships in the world, but Canada does not believe in the death penalty and refuses to hand over someone when the death penalty is a possibility. Because Shirley had fled to Canada, Pennsylvania prosecutors were stuck in a legal corner. To get her back, Pennsylvania had to promise the Canadian government that they would not seek the death penalty, a standard requirement for extradition that essentially took the most severe punishment off the table, but because there were no aggravating factors, she would not effaced the death penalty regardless. Shirley evaded a rest until December twelfth, when she was detained by Saint John's police. Within hours, she walked free on seventy five thousand dollars bail, ordered to return for an extradition hearing in February. Two friends pledged five thousand dollars each, and her own psychiatrist covered the remaining sixty five thousand dollars, a massive ethical red flag that is really a strange, insane twist. Yeah, but no one had to actually pony up any cash. They just had to sign their names and promise the money was there if she violated the terms of her release. Because of the way the Canadian

35:24 legal system works. There was no quick fix to get Shirley back to the US to face charges. Extradition requires a massive amount of red tape and due process, which meant that Shirley was actually allowed to be out on bail while the courts chewed through the paperwork. For the bag Bees, this was the start of an agonizing uphill battle. They were stuck in a torturous loop of legal delays while the woman they believed killed their son was walking free. In Canada, the extradition process is famously slow, moving through four distinct phases that can each take months or even years to resolve. First, there's the initial request from the US to Canada, which can take up to sixty days for the US to make a formal request. Then it moves to the authority to proceed phase, where the Department of Justice reviews the request from the US to make sure the crime is actually a crime in both countries, which must be answered within thirty days. Next comes the judicial phase. A judge has to decide if there is enough evidence to even send the person to trial. It's not a full trial, but it's a hurdle that the prosecution has to clear. This can take up to ninety days.

36:37 Finally it reaches the ministerial phase. This is the political part where the Minister of Justice personally signs off on the surrender. If the judge signs off, the person is usually transferred within forty five days, but oftentimes appeals are filed and that's when things can get held up for years. In Canada, ninety percent of people fighting extradition events lose, but they never lose quickly. Even a fast case takes over a year. If they have a good lawyer and a constitutional argument. You aren't looking at months anymore. You're looking at a three to five year weight, especially when the appeal goes to the Supreme Court of Canada. It's so frustrating. I know, it's sousing. I know, it's just the nature of things when you're extraditing across countries. There's got to be a lot of rules and processes in place, but it just takes such a long time.

37:30 We talk a lot about this in US cases too, But if you are charged with first degree murder, should you be allowed out on bail? Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, first degree murder is you know, if you're going to go away to prison for life. You have a strong incentive to flee, and if. There is enough evidence to indict you, I don't know if you should be released. Yeah, in this case, she certainly should not have been. We'll be back after a break. The evidence against Shirley in the shooting death of Andrew was largely circumstantial, but it was substantial enough that Canadian authorities eventually recommended her for extradition. Here are the key pieces of evidence that investigators used to build their case.

38:19 On the day before Andrew's murder, Surely May the sixteen hundred kilometer one thousand mile trip from Council Bluffs, Iowa to Littroe, Pennsylvania, and eyewitness at Keystone State Park, where Andrew's body was found, reported seeing a Toyota RAB four with out of state plates parked next to Andrew's Toyota Corolla near the time of the shooting. Investigators tracked Shirley's movements through cell tower pings that placed her in the vicinity of the crime scene during the estimated time of death. Shirley had recently purchased the Phoenix Arms twenty two caliber pistol. Andrew was shot five times with twenty two caliber bullets and remember there was that spent casing at the scene too.

39:00 Andrew had officially ended their relationship, which was enough for a motive. After the murder, Shirley gave conflicting accounts of her whereabouts, claiming that she was sick in bed in Iowa when she was actually driving. Shirley was not able to produce the murder weapon, and the murder weapon actually was never found. She fled to Canada, which to be if that's like a little bit of number woman, right, there were no other viable suspects. When Shirley's car was finally seized, police found it had been professionally detailed, which investigators believed was an attempt to remove gunshot residue and blood evidence. The evidence may be circumstantial, but together it's hard to ignore. Well, no one saw her pool the trigger.

39:43 The sheer volume of coincidences created a mathematical impossibility for her innocence. In legal terms, this is often called the web of circumvention, where each individual thread might be thin, but together they're unbreakable. I've never heard that term before, but it makes perfect sense. On February fifth, Shirley announced to the media that she was pregnant, with Andrew's child due and July. Initially, Kate sixty one and David fifty six weren't sure how to approach the pregnancy, but Kate quickly decided that once the baby was born, if he or she proved to be their grandchild, they would pursue custody, but they would have to relocate to Canada while the case played out in court.

40:23 Immigration in Canada is as complex as extradition. You can't just move there on a whim. However, the Bagbies were able to stay for six months at a time on a visitor's visa, and they did exactly that. On June eighth, about a month before the baby was to arrive, they moved to Saint John's. They'd done their due diligence too, asking four younger couples to act as back up parents because they were a little older. Each couple wrote letters of intent to the court that they would be active participants in the baby's life in the event that something happened to Kate or David. Are you familiar at all with the geography of this area that we're talking about, Saint John's. And Newfoundland only from like books that we've read. I think The Shipping News was a really great book set in Newfoundland. So I have a picture in my mind just from that.

41:11 Well, if you look at a map, it's very isolated and it's treacherous, like it's the weather there. If there weren't bad weather, they would have no weather at all. They say, yeah, it's a very rugged terrain to well. In December two thousand and one, the province of Newfoundland officially changed its name to Newfoundland and Labrador. Newfoundland is an island of profound geographic isolation and atmospheric extremes, home to approximately five hundred and forty thousand people, making it the ninth most populous of Canada's ten provinces. Known as the Rock, the island sits at the mercy of the North Atlantic, where Arctic currents collide with a Gulf stream to create a volatile climate. It is the foggiest and windiest province in Canada, and during a staggering eleven feet of snow and four feet of rain every year, thick gray mists can swallow the coastline in minutes, and hurricane forest winds frequently batter the shore. Yet the harshness of the landscape is deeply balanced by the legendary graciousness of its inhabitants. Despite the rugged environment, Newfoundlanders are known for a unique blend of hospitality that treats strangers like kin, offering a communal warmth that makes the isolated island feel like a tight knit neighborhood.

42:28 I have some friends from Canada and they refer to people from Newfoundland as new Fees. Yeah. I think just like how we call people in the Upper Peninsula ubers yep, right, And I think like the Upper peninsul of Canada is a little bit like Newfoundland because it's, you know, just kind of isolated out there. In not a lot of population density, like there's a lot of space around. Well, it's probably much worse though, in Newfoundland than in Marquette or because that's the Great Lake, where in Newfoundland it's the Zachary Andrew Turner was born on July eighteenth, two thousand and two, in Saint John's. Kate and David went to the hospital, but Shirley would not allow them to see the baby. The bagbes knew they needed to proceed carefully. They were dealing with a woman who had killed their son, after all. They requested a paternity test.

43:22 It was of great concern what would happen if Shirley went to prison. She had no family who could take Zachary, and unless there was an order in place, he'd be sent to a foster home. By the time Zachary was a month old, the Bagbies still hadn't been allowed to meet him. They initially pushed for two one hour visits without Shirley present each week, even serving her a court order to prevent her from fleeing Saint John's with the child. Eventually, a tense compromise was reached. If the Bagbies agreed to let Shirley leave the city to introduce Zachary to her extended family, they would be granted a single hour of supervised visitation at a neutral government office. Kate and David were bewitched women at the Sweet Baby. No paternity test was needed. It was clear that Zachary was theirs. He looked just like Andrew, except for his strawberry blonde hair that he got from his mother. As the weeks ticked by, they fell head over heels for Zachary. There was a thin layer of civility between the Bagbes and Shirley. At every meeting they exchanged photos, and Kate and David brought diapers or a formula for the baby. Eventually they bought him a crib, clothing and took care of most of his needs. Shirley hadn't returned to work since her arrest.

44:34 Now her youngest daughter lived with her too. After months of legal maneuvering, Kate and David were awarded with an additional hour with Zachary each week, but their time with the baby would now have to be at Shirley's apartment. It was odd for the bag Bees to set foot inside the domicile of their son's suspected killer, but they'd tolerate anything for extra time snuggling their grandson. They knew it was important to have a steadfa bond with Zachary. If the court ruled against Shirley at her upcoming extradition hearing, she'd soon be behind bars and they'd have full custody of Zachary. And that's exactly what happened. On November fourteenth, Shirley was taken to jail, but not extradited. The judge ruled there was enough evidence of her guilt for her to remain behind bars while the court finished deciding on the extradition itself.

45:25 While this is what the bag Bees had been hoping for since Zachary's birth four months earlier, they were also deeply sad. It was an adjustment for the baby to be ripped from his nursing mother's arms. When Zachary wailed, they knew it was his mother he sought. Despite the vitriol they felt for Shirley, they felt empathy for everyone involved. But soon Zachary adapted and thrived under his grandparents care. Once a week they took him to the jail two hours away to see Shirley, and they talked with her each day on the phone. All of this was super hard on Kate and David. We talked about the weather and they had to go see Shirley two hours away, and it's the winter, so it's exceptionally treacherous. And I think she had three two hour periods that were visiting hours, and they took her to those three sessions. So they would take Zachary back to a hotel where they had to stay at for naps, and then they would deliver them. And they hate this woman, I know so much.

46:22 I can't even imagine trying to be civil to her. But obviously they had to be. And I feel kind of bad because she never had her day in court, and I'm referring to her as a murderer, but I mean, we know that she murdered Andrew. Yeah, there's really no question about it. And just to have to be polite, Yeah, that must have been. Just possible, really really difficult. Shirley's younger daughter was also in Saint John's with her. I think her son was there and he was looking after her. But the Bagbies are such nice people that they let the daughter come over and spend time with Zachary, and you know, they made sure she had food and so they were taking care of her too. Oh man, I can't even imagine. Two before Christmas two thousand and two, the bag Bees received confirmation that Andrew was Zachary's biological father. They weren't surprised, of course, but grateful to have confirmation. I was going to say earlier that watching the documentary, you get to see a lot of Zachary and you get to see a lot of childhood photos of Andrew, and it is just so clear that they are father and son.

47:22 Well, they have the same little chubby body type. It just is so cute. By January two thousand and three, there was a glimmer of hope that the system was working. Shirley was behind bars and the bag Bees had custody of Zachary, but the calm didn't last. In a move that absolutely floored the bag Bees and the Pennsylvania investigators, a judge granted Shirley release again as well as custody of Zachary, after her lawyers successfully argued that she wasn't a flight risk or a danger to the public. I need to jump in here and tell you that she was never given a psychiatric evaluation. No, no, which is really disturbing. It's just disturbing that they think they.

48:03 Really looked into her background. They see that she had a child abuse allegation against her, that you know, her ex boyfriend had filed charges against her for you know, harassment and stock or behavior. Even without all that, you're you're you know, you're suspected of killing someone in cold infant over. I know, it just makes no sense. And you're handing that the infant is the child of the person you killed too, which just makes it that much worse. So, yeah, it's it's mind boggling. She walked out of jail and back into her apartment, while the extradition process continued to crawl along. For Kate and David, it felt like the ultimate betrayal of the justice system. The woman they believed killed their son was now free to walk out of jail and pull their grandson right out of their firm, loving grasp.

48:50 There was one small silver lining. The new visitation agreement was much more liberal. It allowed for six visits every two weeks, including an overnight stay, a daily phone call, and even babysitting privileges. Strange as it was, Shirley seemed to crave the bagbe's acceptance and company, often giving them even more time than the court required. Zachary formed a strong bond with Kate, and when she was present, chose her over Shirley. I bet Shirley did not like that one bit. No, she did not, But for David every second was a battle. He wrote in his book that they simply loved Zachary more than they hated Shirley, but that didn't make the hatred go away. He loathed Shirley, while Kate seemed to find a way to relate to Shirley.

49:36 Mother to mother, David's anger constantly bubbled just beneath the surface. He spent every visit biting his tongue, knowing that one mention of the murder or the extradition could make Shirley snap and pull Zachary away from them forever. She had the upper hand, and they all knew it for surely. It was all about leverage. When Kate and David refused to talk about the case without legal counsel press she started to pull back. She openly wondered if she had given them too much access, making it clear that Zachary wasn't her son in her eyes, he was her bargaining chip. When the Bagbies refused to visit a psychologist with her, she pulled back, canceled several visits, and took away any extra time. Whenever Kate and David went to their attorneys rather than to her, Shirley made things even more difficult for them. Shirley threw a first birthday party for Zachary at McDonald's the baby had just begun to walk, and made it clear that Kate was the one who he went to for comfort, choosing her over his mother. Shirley became visibly angry and lashed out at Kate. He obviously loves you more, Go ahead and take him. The bag Bees never underestimated Shirley. Their absolute greatest fear was that she would harm Zachary, just despite them. She had already taken Andrew away from them, and they lived with the constant, terrifying thought that if Shirley didn't get her way, she would make sure no one else could either. When David laid in bad at night, sometimes his mind went to dark places. He considered killing Shirley. It was the only

51:08 way to keep Zachary safe. He knew Kate could handle the baby on her own. Shirley started dating a new man, and for Kate and David this was a godsend. She was happier, busy, and distracted. Suddenly she was asking them to babysit more often, even granting them those precious extra overnights. But the reprieve was short lived. The relationship fizzled when the man learned the truth about the murder charge against her in Pennsylvania, and that's when the old Shirley returned. She spiraled into her old obsessive patterns. A barrage of relentless phone calls as many as two hundred a day. They became so suffocating the man eventually had to call the police to get her to stop the bag. Bees watched it all unfold, knowing exactly what this version of Shirley was capable of.

51:55 On August seventeenth, two thousand and three, a month after Zachary's first birthday, Surely got a prescription for Adavan from her psychiatrist, a benzodiazepine that can cause drowsiness. That evening, she wrote letters to several friends. At midnight, she buckled Zachary into his car seat, barrowing her older son's car, and drove off into the night. It was dark and rainy. She stopped at a nursing home, seeking directions to an address for Job's Road in Conception Bay, her ex boyfriend's house. The boyfriend worked as an ambulance driver. She stopped at his place of work and slipped a picture of herself in the door of his ambulance. Then she drove to his house and placed a used tampon and two pictures under his car, one of herself an underwear and one of Zachary in her manic state. She got stuck in a ditch when the car wouldn't budge. She got out of the car and walked alongside the road which hugged the coastline, heading towards a marina. Shirley had fed Zachary formula laced with adavan and taken some herself. A security guard at the marina thought he heard a baby crying around three a m. Somewhere soon after, Shirley jumped into the Atlantic Ocean with Zachary bound to her with her sweater.

53:06 The next morning, Shirley's son reported her and Zachary missing. The bagbies weren't informed until that afternoon. They'd become all too familiar with receiving the very worst news. That evening, Shirley and Zachary's bodies washed ashore. Kate and David, inconsolable, identified the bodies. David described their grief as primitive, but their profound grief was also met with an exceptional rage at Shirley, of course, but also at the system that had repeatedly underestimated a killer. With their world shattered, Kate and David did what resilient people do. They turned their pain into action. They set their sights on a new battle, vowing that they would never ever let another family be destroyed by the same legal loopholes that took Andrew and Zachary.

53:52 After the funerals were over, a massive, years long investigation was launched into how Zachary's death could have been avoided. Over one hundred and fifty people, including the Bagbies, were interviewed. In two thousand and six, the Canadian government released their Turner Review, a massive, sixteen hundred page indictment of the system. The findings were a gut punch. The report confirmed that Zachary's death was entirely preventable. It described a systematic blindness where the courts were so obsessed with Shirley's Turner's rights as an accused killer that they completely ignored the very real danger she posed to her own son. Kate and David took that report and went to war. They weren't interested in apologies. They wanted change. The Bagbes argued that a system had a blind spot when it came to the safety of children in custody disputes involving a parent accused of murder. They spent years lobbying in Ottawa, turning their private heartbreak into a public demand for accountability. Their mission was boosted by the documentary Dear Zachary, which put a face to the failures of the system and made it impossible for politicians to look away. The Bagbies wanted to win sure that if a person is charged with a serious crime, like the murder of the other parent, the court must consider the safety of the children before granting bail. David and Kate didn't just sign petitions. They traveled to Ottawa, testified before parliamentary committees, and did countless interviews.

55:18 They forced the politicians to look up photos of Zachary and explain why his life wasn't considered a public safety risk. On December sixteenth, twenty ten, they finally won. Bill C four sixty four, better known as Zachary's Bill, was signed into law. It fundamentally changed the Canadian Criminal Code, forcing judges to consider the safety of children before ever granting bail to a parent accused of a serious crime. The blind spot was gone because of Kate and David. The law finally recognized that a child's right to safety must always outweigh the rights of the accused. The failures later prompted changes to Canadian extradition and bail laws, often referred to collectively as Zachary's Law in Canada, the law that eventually changed as known as Zachary's Bill. Before this, the criteria for denying bail were very narrow. Kurt Kenny and Andrew Bagbie weren't just friends. They are a creative duo.

56:12 From the time they were seven years old, while other kids were out playing baseball, they were making movies, Kurt behind the camera and Andrew in front of it. Andrew was Kurt's permanent leading man, the charismatic goofy star of every home movie Kurt ever directed. Even Andrew's parents, Kate and David, were occasionally talking into jumping into a frame. When Andrew was murdered, Kurt didn't just lose his best friend, he lost his muse. He realized that piecing together years of footage wasn't just a way to grieve, It was a project he needed to complete for Andrew's family. When Kurt learned Shirley was pregnant, his mission shifted. He began traveling across the US and the UK, interviewing everyone who knew Andrew, so that Zachary, a baby who had never met his father, could truly understand the man he came from.

56:58 At that point. It wasn't meant to be a public documentary. It was a private gift. It was meant to be exactly what the title suggested, a letter to a son. But everything changed when the unthinkable happened and Shirley killed Zachary. The footage Kurt had been collecting was no longer just a memorial. It was evidence of a broken system. The film shifted from a quiet personal tribute to a visceral, heart wrenching expose. When Dear Zachary, A Letter to a Son about his father was released in two thousand and eight, it did more than just tell a story. It provoked an international outcry. The film turned Kate and David Bagby into global symbols of grace and grit. By putting their private grief on a world stage, Kerr provided a massive signal boost for their legal fight, making it impossible for the Canadian government to continue ignoring the deadly loopholes and their balen custody laws. The documentary ends not with a courtroom or a legal filing, but with Kurt at home years later with his own son, a little boy he named Andrew. When his son looks into the lens and asks, why are you crying. It's a reminder that while of Bagbee's one legal reform in Zachary's name, the personal loss remains a lifelong wait for those who loved Andrew and Zachary.

58:11 Doctor Andrew Bagbee was a man described by everyone who knew him as a living hug, a man so beloved he served as a best man for seven different friends. He was a dedicated doctor, a loyal friend, and a man who would have been a wonderful father. A memorial park called Andrew's Park was created as a tribute to Andrew, featuring a playground and garden that reflect the impact he had on the community of Latrobe during his short time there. Zachary Turner, in his short thirteen months, brought profound light and love into the world, but especially into the lives of his grieving grandparents. He was a child with bright, curious eyes and a strong spirit. Rest in peace, Andrew and Zachary. I'm sorry that last five minutes was really hard to get through.

58:52 I applaud you for getting through that. I was just sitting here listening and I was getting very emotional, as Yeah, it's a really sad story. I'll have a lot of questions because you know, it's pretty straightforward. But do you think Shirley was evil, mentally ill or both. I mean, I think you have to be evil to do what she did, but I also think she was mentally ill. One of the things that struck me in watching the documentary is they played a lot of recordings, Like she would call David and Kate and like talk to them and they would record everything, and you could just tell by the way she talked that her mind was just you just get this impression of people that their mind is bouncing all over the place and that their thoughts are not settled, like they're just very manic.

59:34 And she just seemed like she had a lot going on in her head and just you know, just seemed kind of off in certain ways. It's just it's just so sad. Yeah, it's devastating. I know we shouldn't diagnose people with any illnesses, but she has a lot of the markers of borderline personality disorder. Remember that's the one where you can't be abandoned. She was always afraid of people leaving her. Yeah, I mean that makes sense. So devastating that she took Zachary with her. She could have left him and you know, just despite Kate and David, she killed him too. It's just unforgivable. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

1:00:14 I don't have much else to say other than Shirley was a walking red flag. These men that she would be dating would try to break up with her, but she just wouldn't take no for an answer, and she just kept inserting herselves into their lives. And yeah, she was gonna snap at some point, regardless of whether it was Andrew or someone else. You could just tell that that was just you know, she was walking red flag. Is a great way to put it. So. David Bagbee did write a book called Dance with the Devil, a murder of memoir and loss. That was my primary source for this episode. Was very well written. He goes very deep into a lot of the legal stuff, which I mostly lost over. I recommend that, but I also read the first five hundred pages of the government report, so really interesting. Yeah, we talked about Dear Zachary. It's on YouTube. I forgot to mention that at the beginning of the episode. It's easy to find.

1:01:08 Yeah, we'll post a link to it in our showouts. It's free, there's no commercials, So I recommend that you watch that because it's super touching. Yeah. To me, it's just so impressive that David and Kate how they were able to move on. It's so interesting because when Andrew died, you know, you talked about it, the fact that they originally they were going to end their own lives because they just couldn't see a reason to go on. And now not only did they lose their son, but they lost their grandson who was just a baby at the time. And yet they found the strength and courage to move on and to do, you know, to do something really good, to fight for other people who could be in that same situation someday. And it's just so so impressive.

1:01:48 I mean, Kate and David are beautiful people, but the community of people that surrounded them, yeah, just also just lovely people that really supported them and loved them. And you know, nothing will ever take the place of Andrew or Zachary, but the young people in their lives I think have surrounded that and made them part of their family. And you know, like like Heather the ex fiance, you know, she considers them family. A lot of people consider them family. The filmmaker, you know, he's obviously you know, part of their family, and it's just kind of makes should make us all pause and think that, you know, your family doesn't have to just be your biological family. You know, if you know people that need somewhere to go on Thanksgiving, or you know, just we should open our hearts and our lives up to people more and you know, form our own communities, because you can tell that that made such a huge difference in their lives. Had they not had all those friends of Andrew's open up to them, they might not be here right and this when I was researching the case, I thought that David had passed, and originally, in my rest and peace, I had something for him. And then today I realized that it was a different David Mugby, and he and Kay are still with us, so I think they are still doing advocacy work.

1:02:58 That's just so amazing, that's. Great, and that really that sense of that community and family really comes through in the documentary. I wonder about the judge. I know in the documentary you didn't really talk about it much in your script, but in the documentary David and Kate were very angry at the judge that let her go free, and I just I know the system, it's part of the system, and I know that David and Kate have worked to change the system. But I just wonder how that judge can live with themselves, you know, just knowing what happened. It just really it bothers me so much. I think it's not just that judges, it was just something that is just kind of it's it was the system at the time. I mean, the system is now changed, so you know, you can have peace and that knowing that, right, you know, this case has made a difference and where people are hopefully alive today because that that has been changed. Yeah, part of it was though Surely was well spoken and manipulative in a gas lighter, and she was a physician, so I think people were like, yeah.

1:03:58 She came across as very respect to both. It's not guilty. Yeah. Well, thank you again Amanda from Texas for recommending this case, and thank you Jody for the snack. So we try our very best to pronounce things correctly Inland that I think we said it the right way. We did our best best. Googled several videos on it, and we listened to them and we did our best. But even in some of the videos they said that people. Say it differently. Well, to become an honorary Newfoundlander, you have to be screeched in, which involves three things. A shot of high proof rum, a short recitation, and a local dialect that most people can't understand. And kissing a frozen codfish.

1:04:55 I'm okay with like the first one of those. Why would you not kiss a frozen fish? I mean it's frozen. Yeah, yes, I guess I would do that too. Well, you may or may not know this about me, you know, but not everyone knows. But I am a huge fan of mister Rogers. Most people are, don't you think we know? Like they don't have pictures of him above their desks. I have a picture of miss and I have a Mister Rogers pin. I just think that there needs to be more gentle, kind, slow speaking people. But did you know that his mother made all of his sweaters for the show. I did not know that. And I think every year for Christmas she gave him a new one. That's where they were so special to him. Oh it's so sweet. Yeah. And also, speaking of Latrobe, the banana split, like we said earlier, was invented. I don't know if it's invented.

1:05:41 Is that the right word to create? I think you could say it was invented. Yeah, what what ice cream flavors would you put on a banana split? Well, I think a banana split has got to be fairly traditional, so I would say it's chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry. Can You can have whatever flavors you want. Oh, I just think you gotta go with tradition in this case. Although I personally am not a huge fan of banana splits, to be honest, Like, I like bananas and I like ice cream, but together, I don't really I don't really get it. I don't think I've had one since I was a very little kid, because I'm usually like a one scoop person with that budget, and I don't really want three scoops. But now I kind of want one. The banana slip split is more of a visual. It's more of like an artwork because you know, you got the banana split on both sides, and you got three scoops ice cream, and then you got the whipped cream and the cherry. It's more of like an artwork than it is. You know, I just don't think the banana and the ice cream work well together.

1:06:35 Okay, we need a boat, right. I think I would do like butter pecan, like some sort of like chocolate, maybe chocolate cherry. And these aren't going to go together at all, are they? Oh? And I love like when it has coke, like coconut ice cream. Oh, coconut ice cream. Yeah, coconut ice cream. That doesn't sound good to me at all. Don't think so that probably wouldn't be good. Yeah, maybe you're right, Maybe you should just go vanilla. I don't know. Let us know what you think if your job was ice cream taste tester. Do you think eventually you'd be like, oh, I gotta go to work, I gotta eat more ice cream to day, or do you think you'd be I think I would love my job, really, I think it would be great. You're much you're a much bigger ice cream fan than I am.

1:07:18 And if you're an ice cream taster, I'm guessing the job. You know, you're just taking small tastes, so you're not like just you know, mowing down spoonful after a spoonful of ice cream. So I think it would be a. Dream if you're tasting the ice cream, not all of the batches are going to taste amazing, that's true. Some of them are going to taste bad. Yeah, and I have to taste some that are not flavors that I. Like either, and then you might have to taste like the spinach ice cream or rethink this whole lustard ice cream. Wasn't that a thing? Like? Yeah, there was like a gray poop one ice cream or. Something garlic ice cream before, but not grape No, it doesn't neither. Those so good to me. Yeah, you're making me rethink this whole ice cream taster career.

1:07:59 But then maybe it would be fun to be like. You're sending really mixed messages here. I don't know if I should try to get a job as an ice cream taster or not. I think you would be really good at it. Okay, I was going to say that I'm a little disappointed that there is not a Rolling Rock beer as part of my snack today. Yeah, well, I know you one, I know you a lot of things. Man. I used to Rolling Rock used to be like my go to. Yeah, we used to drink it all the time. Loved Rolling Rock and yeah La trobe it was it was funny because you just always like Brood in Latrobe, Pennsylvania. It just became synonymous. It sounds like a really cool place. And I know that Andrew really loved it there and they loved Andrew there too. Yeah. Well, thank you all so much for listening.

1:08:42 I bet you were all very happy this morning. There there was not a part four to the Minetta's Brothers, like everyone happy people. Yeah, those three parts they just even when I was posting like the pictures, I was like, dang, this was that was that was that was. That was a lot of the Menenda's brothers. So anyway, well next Monday, we'll have another case for you, so please come back. I can't wait to hear what it is. Yeah, I don't know just yet either. Hopefully we'll figure it out by that. Please rate, review, follow and subscribe. Find us on social media or YouTube or TikTok, or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. And please consider supporting us on Patreon. Go to patreon dot com slash love Marykill. For five dollars a month, you get early ad free episodes, a monthly bonus episode, and our gratitude until next time. Don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband. The companion with the