Feb. 23, 2026

Dr. Shirley Turner and Dr. Andrew Bagby

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In November 2001, beloved medical resident Andrew Bagby was found brutally murdered in a Pennsylvania park. The prime suspect, his former girlfriend Dr. Shirley Turner, immediately fled to St. John’s, Newfoundland, where she revealed she was pregnant with Andrew’s child. What followed was a complex, years-long international legal battle that pitted Andrew’s grieving parents against a foreign justice system in a remote, windswept province. The case ultimately centered on controversial bail decisions and the struggle to protect a child amidst a high-stakes extradition process, eventually sparking landmark legislative changes in Canadian law.

Today's snack: Walnut kiffles (Thanks Jody!)

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WEBVTT

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Hi. I'm Tina, and I'm Rich. If there's one thing

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we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's that.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your.

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Wife, and some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to Love Mary Kill. Hey Rich, Hey Tina, How

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are you? I am doing great?

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How are you doing great? Because the sun is shining

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or snow is almost melted, and it's it's like it's

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fifty four degrees here in Dexter, Michigan.

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I'm actually doing great because I'm flying to Florida tomorrow.

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But it is nice outside.

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Yeah, it does make you feel a little better. Just

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a quick reminder, if you don't want to listen to

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us prattle on for five to six minutes, then you

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can listen to Love Mary Kill just the facts, same case,

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but without the snacks and without the banter. Where are

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you going in Florida?

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I am going to Tampa Ah. I don't know if

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I've ever been to Tampa, actually, but I'm sure it's

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warm and sunny, which will be nice.

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It's going to be warm and sunny here, so so Ladi,

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I bet.

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It won't be quite as warm, but there will be

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fewer alligators. Here than there, I'm guessing.

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Also, speaking of alligators, we got a new toaster this week. Sorry,

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I just wanted to tell everyone about our new toaster.

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And I know that no, but that was a really

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big decision in our lives. I have been feeling like

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we talked about this earlier in the year, but empty

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nesters essentially now, and it was a big decision whether

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we go from a two slice to a for slice.

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And I'm going to be honest with you, I think

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lately I've been struggling a little bit with missing our

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kids because we don't really see them that often, and

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I think I've been feeling a little melancholy. So you

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were so nice when you were like, I think we

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should get the two slice, and I was like, I

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feel like that's too big of a decision to make.

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I need four slice toaster because it's going to make

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me feel like, you know, an old woman with you know,

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just a two sliced toaster. So that was a big decision.

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Well, you did a good job, really well.

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You said we should go with the four sliced toaster,

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so we did. I'm not going to tell you which

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one we got because.

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It's a beautiful machine.

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Though I spent way too much on it though, because

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I went with the pretty one.

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Well, it's really nice.

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It is beautiful. Yeah, all right, I got the Smeg.

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We got the Smeg.

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I don't. I'm assuming other people know what that means.

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I don't really, I've never heard of the smeag.

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I think the ladies know what we mean by this Smeg.

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It's not a very pleasant sounding brand name, but it's

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a very beautiful toaster.

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I have a snack today for you that one of

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our sweet listeners sent us.

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Oh, I always love listeners sent snacks.

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Jody from Pennsylvania sent these snacks and we feel kind

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of bad because a lot of times we have stuff planned.

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And when we did the Menanda's episodes, this were three

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in a row, and so Jody sent us a couple

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two or three weeks ago, and it probably should have

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been eaten right away, but we didn't eat them right away.

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I already had one spoiler alert. They are still delicious.

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But Jody sent us walnut kiffles from Pennsylvania Dunge Dutch Land.

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I've never heard of a kiffle before.

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It looks kind of like a klachis is that how

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you say? Like it's a rolled kind of cookie and

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these are walnut and they look like they're Jody. They

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held up great, Like I'm kind of surprised that they

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they're all still break it all.

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Yeah, would you like to try it?

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What did you think of a walnut kiffles?

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Oh? They were really good. It was so nice of you,

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Jody to send those along. They were really tasty. And

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I really like the outside, the coating the pastry or

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whatever that it sort of wrapped around.

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I like the walnut filling. I thought it was really good.

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If you would like to see what we're eating, you

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can go to Kiffl Kitchen Kiffle with ki f f

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l e Kitchen dot com and you can see all

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of their offerings. I'm going to read you just a

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little bit of what a kiffle is. It's the same

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thing as a kifful. It's a pastry that has origins

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as a crescent shaped role developed in Austria in the

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late seventeenth century. Legend has it that when the Turks

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from the Ottomanire tried to invade Austria through tunnels, they

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were discovered by bakers who were working through the night.

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The bakers alerted the townspeople who flooded the tunnels and

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saved Austria. To celebrate their victory, the bakers made rolls

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in the shape of the crescent moon of the Turkish flag.

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In actual fact, Polish troops helped repel the Turks out

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of Austria. And that pissant you think came from France

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is actually a variation of the Kiffel.

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I learned so much. When we record our episodes.

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We sure do. Thanks again, Jody, much appreciated. Well. Today's

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case is a devastatingly sad case. I need to give

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a content warning that it does deal with the death

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of a young child. This case was recommended by Amanda

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from Texas. So there's a very famous documentary about this

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case called Dear Zachary, So you might if you haven't

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watched that documentary, you might want to watch it before

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you listen to this episode, because I mean, we'll tell

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the the whole story, and obviously there will be spoilers.

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I watched it. Usually we don't share with each other

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the case before we do, but you recommended that maybe

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I should watch it, and I did, And I also

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recommend it just because it really gives you a sense

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of who the people involved are and were, and just

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it really helps you get to know the people.

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I'm not playing any clips in today's episode, but when

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you watch the documentary, you get to see, you know,

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the visuals, and you get to hear the voices and understand,

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Like you said, the people that we're talking about today, well,

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today's case is doctor Shirley Turner and doctor Andrew Bagbee.

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On Saturday, November three, two thousand and one, twenty eight

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year old Andrew Bagbee drove his on again, off again

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girlfriend of two years, doctor Shirley Turner, to the Latrobe

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Airport in Latrobe, Pennsylvania. He just ended their tumultuous relationship,

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this time for good, over lunch before she headed back

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to her apartment in Council Bluffs, Iowa. The pair had

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met in medical school at Memorial University of new Land.

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Forty eight hours later on Monday morning, as Andrew was

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leaving for his shift at the Latrobe Hospital, he was

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surprised when Shirley reappeared on the doorstep of his apartment.

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She'd driven for sixteen hours overnight from Council Bluffs to Latrobe.

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Andrew left her at his apartment and went to the hospital,

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they agreed to meet up at a park after he

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was done with work. He told his friend and chief

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resident doctor Clark Simpson, the psychotic bitch was on my

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doorstep this morning, but he assured his friend that everything

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was fine and he'd send Shirley on her way. Later

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that night, he made plans to meet up at Clark's

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apartment after seven pm. At five, Andrew headed to Keystone

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Park in his black Toyota Corolla. Later, an eyewitness reported

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seeing two dark colored vehicles parked side by side in

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the parking lot just after six PM, a Toyota Corolla

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and a Toyota rav four. The next morning, just after sunrise,

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Andrew's body was discovered by a man who was searching

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for a bertrain ernables in the park. Andrew was found

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lying face down in the gravel, still wearing scrubs, near

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the boat launch, a layer of frost blanketing him. He'd

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been shot five times with a twenty two semi automatic handgun,

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and he also suffered blunt force trauma to his head.

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He was shot once in the left cheek, once in

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the left side of his chest, twice in the rear

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after he'd fallen to the ground. And finally in the

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back of the head, with the gun pressed against his skull,

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singing his hair. Andrew's devastating murder was the first in

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a tragic sequence that would continue to unfold and weighs

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no one could yet imagine. David Franklin Bagbee met his wife,

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Kathleen Daphne Barnard, soon after he was discharged from the

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Navy in nineteen sixty seven. She was from the English

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countryside of Devon in Shatham, England, a landscape of rolling

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green hills, ancient moorland, and dramatic coastline where quiet villages

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sit between farmland and sea. It feels both pastoral and elemental,

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shaped by weather, history and a slower, more insular rhythm

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of life. She was in the US working as a

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traveling nurse midwife. Neither was looking for a long term relationship.

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In fact, Kate had stubbornly insisted she'd never marry, but

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after their first day to Disneyland, they realized they'd met

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their match. After four months, David proposed and they were

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married just weeks later in March nineteen sixty eight in Compton, California,

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when David was nearly done with his engineering degree, at

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cal State Long Beach, they decided to start a family.

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After trying for nearly two years spent in a cycle

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of hope and frustration, Kate became pregnant on September twenty fifth,

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nineteen seventy three. Andrew David Bagbee was born in San Diego, California.

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He was the only child for Kate and David, but

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they were content and fulfilled with Andrew their successful careers

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and a close network of friends and family. Kate worked

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as an obgyn nurse practitioner and David as a computer engineer.

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I'm just going to say, from watching the documentary, they

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just seem like great people. You would love them. If

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you watch the documentary, you'll just love Kate and David.

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Yeah, a great couple, right, I mean.

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They just seem like they fit together very well, and

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they both are good people in their own.

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Right, very good people. Andrew was a good student and

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made friends easily. He became an Eagle Scout at age fifteen.

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From a young age, he set his sites on being

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a doctor. He went to the University of California at Irvine,

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majoring in biology, but failed to get into any medical

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school post graduation. Disappointed, but undeterred, he applied to sixty

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medical schools the following year while working as a researcher

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at Stanford University. His perseverance paid off when he was

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accepted to Memorial University of Newfoundland in Saint John's for entry.

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In the fall of nineteen ninety six, he proposed to

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his girlfriend, Heather, his high school sweetheart, and together they

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drove over four thousand miles to their new home in Canada,

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but sadly they ended their engagement after their first year

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together in Newfoundland, but remained close friends for the rest

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of Andrew's life. Kate and David adored her and also

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maintained their relationship with her after the breakup. Despite his

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magnetic presence, Andrew was insecure in romantic relationships. When his

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engagement crumbled, it left a wound that never quite healed.

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My impression of Andrew after watching the documentary is just

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somebody who's so full of life. He just had so

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much going on and just you could just tell you

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was just a really outgoing, friendly person, had so many

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friends and just seemed like a lovely person.

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Yeah, this case makes me a little raw and emotional,

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but he reminds me of your friend Kevin a little

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bit mm hmm.

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Yeah. Definitely someone who just made friends really easily and

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someone who everyone adored.

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Well. He was best man in seven different friends' weddings,

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which I think is really telling. And again that reminds

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me of your friend Kevin who passed away a couple

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of years ago, and you gave one of the eulogies.

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He was the best man at our wedding, but he

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was also the best man at the other guy who

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gave the other eulogies. So anyway, that was really touching.

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But Andrews struck me as the life of the party.

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Yes. Shirley Jane Turner's parents met when her father was

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stationed in Saint Anthony, Newfoundland. After his deployment, he and

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his new wife went to Kansas together, his native state. Together,

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they had four children. Shirley Jane was born in Wichita, Kansas,

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in January nineteen sixty one. After her parents divorced, she

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and her three siblings moved with her mother, a Canadian citizen,

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to the small rural village of Daniels Harbor in Newfoundland,

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where they lived in extreme poverty, supported by government services.

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Shirley and her siblings all held dual citizenship. She was

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highly intelligent, and from an early age aspired to become

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a doctor. She was drawn to science and motivated by

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the promise of the financial stability she had lacked growing up.

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At age sixteen, she enrolled at Sir Wilfrid Grenfell College.

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Her friends recalled that she was quick witted, excepttionally bright, engaged,

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and always at the top of her classes, but also

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a little bit of an odd duck, never quite fitting in.

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In nineteen eighty she transferred to Memorial University of Newfoundland

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to study chemistry with the goal of becoming a doctor.

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After discovering she was pregnant in late nineteen eighty one,

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she married her long term boyfriend, a welder, and returned

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to the university to finish out the year. Her son

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was born in July nineteen eighty two. She continued at

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the university for another year before she and her little

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family moved to Labrador City. Shirley put off her medical

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training and took a job as a chemistry teacher in

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Deer Lake, Newfoundland, even though she was just credit shy

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of obtaining her chemistry degree. In nineteen eighty five, she

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gave birth to a daughter, her husband stayed home with

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their children while she continued teaching. In nineteen eighty eight,

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she divorced her husband after reconnecting with a former high

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school boyfriend, a fisherman, with whom she had carried on

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a month's long affair. They married and had another daughter

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in March nineteen ninety They separated soon after, but didn't

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officially divorce until nineteen ninety seven. In nineteen ninety three, Shurley,

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thirty two, returned to Memorial University to finish her undergraduate degree,

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swearing off marriage and long term relationships to focus on

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her education and career. She rented a small apartment with

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the three children. Her most recent ex husband helped care

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for the children. In October nineteen ninety three, Shirley was

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reported to Social Services, accused of abusing her two older children,

257
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then eight and eleven. In the fall of nineteen ninety four,

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the two older children moved in with their grandmother, who

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00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:45.039
lived next door to their father, and the fishermen took

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custody of his daughter. Shirley was free to start medical school.

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During the next several years, she intermittently had custody of

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her children. In May nineteen ninety eight, at age thirty seven,

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Shirley earned her medical degree and began a two year

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residency program. In her residency, Shirley was notoriously difficult, clashing

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with senior doctors and nurses alike. This abrasive behavior was

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paired with a pattern of unreliability. She missed nine days

267
00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:16.399
of a three month rotation, which was unheard of for

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a medical resident, and Shirley was often caught in her

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own lives. One supervising doctor wrote in their review of her,

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I felt I was being manipulated whenever I spoke with

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Shirley Turner. When negative items would come up, she would

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00:14:30.440 --> 00:14:33.440
change the topic to one of my failings. She could

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00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:37.159
be charming, friendly, and lively, but when caught in an untruth,

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she would become angry, accusatory, and loud. I always felt

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Shirley Turner was putting on a show, as if she

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00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:46.759
were playing the role, but had no feeling for her work.

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I cannot recall a trainee like Shirley Turner in that

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00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:54.639
her approach lacked personal commitment, and her relationships with people seemed,

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00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:57.840
at least to me to be superficial when compared to

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the over four hundred residents I have super during the

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past twenty one years, so.

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What you know of surely doesn't that description sound it's

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00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:08.399
just such a good description of her.

284
00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:11.480
Yeah, it does seem like a really fitting description, and

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I'm thinking of other We covered the case of doctor

286
00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:17.000
Anthony Pignataro a while ago. He was a doctor and

287
00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:20.039
there were similar comments when he went through his residency

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00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:22.519
as well. And it's just just such a red flag

289
00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:25.120
when someone is working to become a doctor, and those

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00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:28.559
type of personality traits are that obvious, right.

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She was a master manipulator and a gas lighter, as

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was doctor Pignataro, And you know those are those are

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qualities that matter and should make you ineligible to become

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a doctor, even if you're capable of doing the work right.

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If you don't have you know, empathy and the other

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attributes that are important to a doctor, let's makes.

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00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:53.120
Really big problems. Yeah, another supervising doctor wrote, you might

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00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:57.279
say doctor Turner was a manipulative, guiltless psychopath, which is

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the medical term I would use. But at the time

300
00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:02.720
we recognized that she was not always telling the truth

301
00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:05.240
about where she was all the time, and she would,

302
00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:09.840
when confronted, gradually escalate her response to a confrontation, but

303
00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:12.919
we never thought about having her assessed by a psychiatrist.

304
00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:16.600
It rarely comes to that in residency. People with major

305
00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:20.440
psychoses are usually picked up in medical school. Despite her

306
00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:24.080
negative reviews, in the summer of two thousand, Shirley completed

307
00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:27.080
her residency and became a fully licensed physician.

308
00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:31.399
So surely I would describe her as she is an

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00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:35.080
attractive woman, but looks kind of like a librarian. She's

310
00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:37.440
small and mousy looking. Do you think that's fair.

311
00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:38.879
Yeah, I'd say that's fair.

312
00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:41.440
Which I think that I mentioned her appearance just because

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I think it helped her get away with certain things.

314
00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:46.600
And she had a nice, calm voice and a manner

315
00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:50.399
of speaking that made her seem that she was kind

316
00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:53.600
and nice and she wasn't really gaslighting, ye she was.

317
00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:55.679
Yeah, Yeah, that makes sense. I think it does help

318
00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:59.480
too to paint the picture. Sureley had sworn off relationships,

319
00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:02.559
but in nineteen ninety six she began seeing a man

320
00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:06.000
who soon after relocated to Halifax for a new job.

321
00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:10.200
He wasn't interested in continuing their relationship long distance, but

322
00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:13.319
Shirley continued to call him and even made the twenty

323
00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:16.799
two hour drive to see him. Several times, her visits

324
00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:20.720
were unwelcome and menacing. This continued for the next year

325
00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:24.240
and a half. After he moved to Pennsylvania. He expected

326
00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:27.160
her to leave him alone, but one night he returned

327
00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:30.559
to his apartment to find her unconscious outside his door,

328
00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:33.640
with a suicide note in hand and instructions how to

329
00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:37.920
handle her estate. He called an ambulance. Shirley had swallowed

330
00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:41.880
an entire bottle of Unissam, thirty two tablets and forty

331
00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:45.519
two tablets of nausine, and over the counter non drowsy

332
00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:50.119
chewable medication designed to quickly relieve nausea and upset stomach.

333
00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:54.039
She also ingested a twenty ounce bottle of pepsicola and

334
00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:57.119
a bag of potato chips. Though we should never question

335
00:17:57.240 --> 00:18:01.599
someone's intent during a suicide attempt, some experts later speculated

336
00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:05.680
that the substances involved were not expected to be immediately fatal,

337
00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:08.559
and noted that the actions were taken by someone with

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medical training. If her intent was to truly end her life,

339
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:16.319
she had access to more deadly medications. The next day,

340
00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:19.720
the man received a voicemail on his work phone, doctor

341
00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:23.480
Turner died last night. He recognized the voice and thought

342
00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:27.960
it was surely attempting to disguise her voice. For months afterward,

343
00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:31.720
she left him messages threatening to kill him. Soon she

344
00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:34.960
met Andrew Bagbie and moved on, but the ex boyfriend

345
00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:38.480
was so rattled by her disturbing and threatening behavior that

346
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he slept with an axe near his bed for several

347
00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:42.240
months afterward.

348
00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:45.519
We talked about this earlier, but surely seemed like an

349
00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:49.880
odd duct to me. But she always wanted love and companionship,

350
00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:52.039
and she really did want to fit in. I think

351
00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:55.680
she had a hard time with close knit relationships, friendships

352
00:18:55.720 --> 00:19:01.079
and romantic partnerships. She just wasn't successful in people.

353
00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:03.839
Okay, in some of these behaviors are really they really

354
00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:08.000
come across as desperate. I guess driving twenty two hours

355
00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:10.920
and just showing up at someone's doorstep. And then you

356
00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:11.920
know when someone.

357
00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:14.119
Not getting the hint, when someone wants to end the.

358
00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:17.000
Relationship exactly, We'll be back after a break.

359
00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:27.160
Shirley Turner met Andrew Bagbee in the spring of nineteen

360
00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:31.039
ninety nine at Memorial University. Shirley was a resident in

361
00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:34.920
the family Medicine program and Andrew a third year medical student.

362
00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:39.319
They started as friends and then dated casually Surely, twice

363
00:19:39.319 --> 00:19:44.000
divorced with three children, was twelve years Andrew senior. That summer,

364
00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:47.759
when Andrew was in California with his family, Shirley called often,

365
00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:50.160
and there was no easy way to get her off

366
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:53.680
the phone. Kate and David began screening their phone calls

367
00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:57.200
to avoid her frequent calls. At the end of the summer,

368
00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:01.079
she visited California, and Kate and David or pleasant enough,

369
00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:04.200
but didn't understand why their son, in his twenties would

370
00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:07.720
be interested in a much older woman. Andrew assured his

371
00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:12.799
parents that the relationship wasn't serious. That following Christmas, Surely

372
00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:16.359
asked if she and her children, aged eighteen, fifteen, and

373
00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:19.960
ten could stay with the Bagbes while they visited Disneyland.

374
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:22.799
They were happy to host them, but a little surprised

375
00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:25.880
a woman they barely knew would ask such a large favor, but,

376
00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:28.839
as they'd come to discover, Surely had a hard time

377
00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:32.720
understanding boundaries. The next summer, she once again called the

378
00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:35.400
Bagbies and asked if she could stay for a few

379
00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:38.640
days with her friends and their infant. They again agreed.

380
00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:42.039
We talked about this earlier, but the Bagbies were amazingly

381
00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:45.640
kind and generous people. The visit was strained as Shirley

382
00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:48.839
felt more comfortable in their presence this time and was

383
00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:54.000
prone to inappropriate outbursts and mood swings. Andrew graduated from

384
00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:58.000
Memorial in May two thousand. He set his sights on Syracuse,

385
00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:02.119
New York, for his residency in surgical medicine. Shirley had

386
00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:05.119
graduated from her residency and took a job in Iowa,

387
00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:09.039
leaving her three children in Canada, rarely seeing them or

388
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:13.079
supporting them financially. Her initial salary was one hundred and

389
00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:16.079
seventy thousand dollars or about three hundred and twenty thousand

390
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:18.839
dollars today. It seemed like she should have enough money

391
00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:21.920
to support her family, but she kind of just left

392
00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:25.440
them in Canada with her father's Although her two oldest children,

393
00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:27.599
one of them was an adult at this point, I think,

394
00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.880
but he was in college. Yeah, and her second oldest

395
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:32.440
daughter was almost an adult.

396
00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:35.000
And still she was making good money and living in Iowa.

397
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:37.599
The cost of living is pretty reasonable there as well,

398
00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:38.440
so you would think.

399
00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:39.880
She could have I hope that she would have sent

400
00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:42.440
more money back to them. Yeah. Friends described this as

401
00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:45.400
a very difficult time in Andrew's life. He didn't love

402
00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:49.200
being in Syracuse or being a surgical residence. Surely, and

403
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:52.359
Andrew continued to see each other despite living one thousand

404
00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:56.160
miles apart. Over the next fourteen months, Shirley visited him

405
00:21:56.279 --> 00:22:00.119
seven times, while he traveled to Iowa only once. During

406
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.759
one trip, Shirley was the last to leave the apartment

407
00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:06.160
and accidentally left the door unlocked, or so she claimed.

408
00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:09.960
When Andrew returned, several items were missing from his apartment,

409
00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:13.559
including a laptop and a palm pilot. Later, it was

410
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:17.119
discovered that Shirley had given her son Andrew's laptop and

411
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:20.079
told him that Andrew wanted him to have it. A boy.

412
00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:22.799
Remind me what a palm pilot is? Was that like

413
00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:23.920
a black It was like.

414
00:22:23.880 --> 00:22:25.880
Before a BlackBerry. Yeah, it was like a personal I

415
00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:27.359
don't think it was a phone, but it was like

416
00:22:27.400 --> 00:22:30.160
a personal organizer, Yeah, calendar type of thing.

417
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:34.480
Unhappy in Syracuse, Andrew moved to Latrobe, Pennsylvania, to begin

418
00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:37.799
a residency in family medicine. It was a much better

419
00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:40.680
fit for him. He made friends quickly and loved the

420
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:43.279
small town. Do you know anything about Latrobe?

421
00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:45.559
The only thing I know is rolling rock beer.

422
00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:49.079
You are correct, the Trobe, Pennsylvania, was the birthplace of

423
00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:53.559
Fred Rogers, the lifelong home of golf legend Arnold Palmer,

424
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:56.519
and the nineteen oh four site where the banana split

425
00:22:56.680 --> 00:22:59.720
was in VENTAA For decades, it was also the home

426
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:03.680
of rolling Rockbier, cementing this small town's place in American history.

427
00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:07.519
On October sixth Shirley applied for a gun permit, claiming

428
00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:10.359
that she felt unsafe in the United States. A few

429
00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:13.720
days later, she purchased a twenty two caliber semi automatic

430
00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:16.880
handgun and took three classes on how to handle the gun.

431
00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:20.640
Her instructor noticed that Shirley's gun was faulty. The gun

432
00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:23.160
had a habit of spitting out an extra bullet every

433
00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:25.759
time it was fired. He encouraged her to trade it

434
00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:29.599
in for a new one, but she resisted. On October twentieth,

435
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:32.960
two thousand and one, Shirley traveled to Pennsylvania to accompany

436
00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:36.480
Andrew to the wedding of his friends Marcy and Carl. Heather,

437
00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:40.319
Andrew's ex girlfriend, called, and Shirley answered. She told Heather

438
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:43.759
that she was pregnant what was considering ending the pregnancy.

439
00:23:44.359 --> 00:23:47.920
Shirley wasn't pregnant, but soon would be. She returned to

440
00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:50.160
her home in Iowa for a few days before she

441
00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:53.039
flew again to La Trobe and stayed with Andrew until

442
00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:56.480
November three. The visit was tense and they argued through

443
00:23:56.559 --> 00:23:59.240
much of it. Andrew was up front with Shirley, telling

444
00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:02.440
her that he dated other women. Shirley preferred a kind

445
00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:05.799
of unspoken don't ask, don't tell arrangement, but it was

446
00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:09.039
clear she was not comfortable with Andrew seeing other women.

447
00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:12.799
The exact status of their relationship was murky, but Shirley's

448
00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:16.880
actions suggested she was not okay sharing him. She contacted

449
00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:20.480
two women she suspected Andrew was dating and left messages

450
00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:24.319
for both. In one she warned that doctor Bagbee hurt people,

451
00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:27.200
and the other she cautioned the woman that Andrew was

452
00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:31.640
also seeing a beautiful blonde and November third, when Andrew

453
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:35.039
took Shirley to the airport, he ended their relationship over lunch.

454
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:37.720
He had a date scheduled that night with one of

455
00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:40.960
the women. After dropping Shirley off, he stopped at the

456
00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:43.759
drug store and bought a box of condoms and placed

457
00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:47.440
the receipt in his wallet, But unfortunately, Andrew was stood

458
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:50.359
up and the date never happened. I don't think Sureley

459
00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:53.079
and Andrew were ever exclusive, but she did have this

460
00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:55.759
don't ask, don't tell policy, I don't want to know

461
00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:57.880
about the other women. But then she found out about

462
00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:01.920
the other women and acted inappropriately for the status of

463
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:04.200
their relationship, right, And I believe he tried to break

464
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:05.599
up with her all the time and said, I don't

465
00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:08.480
want to see you anymore. But yeah, she somehow always

466
00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:10.720
found a way to weasele back into his life.

467
00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:13.440
Do you think in Andrew's mind it was just a

468
00:25:13.480 --> 00:25:16.799
casual like relationship, but in her mind it was something more?

469
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:19.160
Or do you think she led him to believe that

470
00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:20.759
it was also just a casual thing.

471
00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:24.000
You know, I don't know. I think that she played

472
00:25:24.039 --> 00:25:27.480
on his insecurities a little bit, Okay, because we talked

473
00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:30.880
about how you know, he after his engagement broke up.

474
00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:33.640
I think he was a really cute guy and you know,

475
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:36.039
very affable, likee.

476
00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:38.119
A lot of people have insecurities, even if they seem

477
00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:39.720
that way, you know to everyone else.

478
00:25:40.039 --> 00:25:42.799
Yeah, but this woman had just stood him up. But

479
00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:45.799
I wonder if Shirley's phone calls might have made her.

480
00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:46.880
Oh, might have scared her off.

481
00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:48.400
Yeah, she might have been like, oh, this is too

482
00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:51.759
much drama for me. Yeah, and this is where back

483
00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:55.000
where we started from. After being home for about twenty

484
00:25:55.039 --> 00:25:58.319
four hours, Shirley again left her home in Council Bluffs

485
00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:01.240
at one pm on Sunday and began this sixteen hour

486
00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:05.200
drive to Latrobe. It's unclear what prompted her to make

487
00:26:05.240 --> 00:26:07.960
the drive. She was scheduled to start a new job

488
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:10.839
the next day. She called her employer from the road

489
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:13.279
and complained of a migraine and said she wouldn't be

490
00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:15.960
in the next morning, but should be better by Tuesday,

491
00:26:16.119 --> 00:26:19.400
November seventh, and she would report for her shift. Then

492
00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:22.920
she arrived in Latrobe at five thirty a m. Waking Andrew.

493
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:25.799
He was shocked to see her so soon, but agreed

494
00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:28.359
to have a final conversation with her that evening at

495
00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:31.400
Keystone Park. She spent the day in his apartment while

496
00:26:31.400 --> 00:26:34.119
he split his time between the hospital and a clinicy

497
00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:38.079
worke Dad in nearby Saltzburg. Some time between five twenty

498
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:41.680
seven and six ten p m. Confirmed by cell phone records,

499
00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:45.839
Andrew arrived at Keystone Park, where Shirley was waiting for him.

500
00:26:46.039 --> 00:26:48.559
An eye witnessed who was hunting in the area. Recalled

501
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:51.200
seeing two vehicles side by side in the park at

502
00:26:51.279 --> 00:26:54.319
six ten, but no one was inside the vehicles. I

503
00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:57.599
think they may have gone for a walk. The next morning,

504
00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:01.759
Andrew's body was discovered face down after daybreak. There wasn't

505
00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:05.720
much evidence, but one unspent bullet lay next to his body.

506
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:08.960
I do remember. Do you remember that Shirley's gun was

507
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:12.480
faulty and would eject a bullet that was unspent. Yes.

508
00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:16.000
Meanwhile, Shirley raced to return to Iowa before a ten

509
00:27:16.160 --> 00:27:19.079
thirty appointment with the patient. She called the office to

510
00:27:19.160 --> 00:27:21.680
let them know that she'd be late. She stopped home

511
00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:24.079
and took a quick shower before she arrived at work

512
00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:27.559
at eleven a m. She called the Bagbes several times

513
00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:29.880
that day to ask if they'd spoken to their son.

514
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.720
She was worried about him, She claimed something about The

515
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:37.920
calls from Shirley left Kate Bagbee feeling unsettled. She went

516
00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:40.039
about her day until she received a call from a

517
00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:43.880
police officer in her hometown of Sunnyvale, California to call

518
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:48.000
the coroner's office in Greensburg, Pennsylvania. She was told that

519
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:52.599
her son was dead under suspicious circumstances, she fell to

520
00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:56.359
the ground. Unable to process the devastating news. She called

521
00:27:56.440 --> 00:27:59.359
David at work and screamed into the phone. Andrew's dead.

522
00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:03.039
He's been ordered. Friends helped them through the first hours,

523
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:06.720
making travel arrangements and packing for them. These first days

524
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:10.960
were marked by unrelenting grief, pain and tears. Kate and

525
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:14.599
David quietly decided that they'd bury Andrew and then take

526
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:17.319
their own lives. There was no reason to continue on

527
00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:20.680
without him. But when they traveled to Pennsylvania, they were

528
00:28:20.720 --> 00:28:23.960
surrounded by the compassion of Andrew's friends and colleagues at

529
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:27.680
Latrobe Hospital, along with the quiet support of law enforcement.

530
00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:30.920
Seeing the depth of love for Andrew from across the

531
00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:33.440
globe was enough to pull them back from the edge

532
00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:36.400
of death. But just beneath the surface of their grief,

533
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:41.160
rage boiled, especially for David. Between waves of tears, his

534
00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:45.079
thoughts constantly circled back to Andrew's killer. Please kept the

535
00:28:45.079 --> 00:28:48.200
Bagbies up to date on the investigation, but the Bagbies

536
00:28:48.279 --> 00:28:52.200
already had a suspect in mind. Five memorial services were

537
00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:58.240
held for Andrew in La Trope, California, Newfoundland, England, and Missouri.

538
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:03.799
Famed pathologists Cyril Weckt performed Andrew's autopsy. He determined that

539
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:06.480
he had been shot five times, once in the face,

540
00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:09.480
once in the head, once in the chest, and twice

541
00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:13.200
in the buttocks. Andrew also sustained blunt force trauma to

542
00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:17.039
the head, consistent with having been kicked. Doctor Weckt ruled

543
00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:19.720
the cause of death to be multiple gunshot wounds and

544
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:23.680
the manner of death a homicide. Almost immediately, doctor Shirley

545
00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:26.640
Turner was a suspect. She must have known because she

546
00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:31.039
quickly hired an attorney. A Pennsylvania state trooper, Randall Gardner,

547
00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:35.079
called her to inform her of Andrew's death. Shirley expressed shock.

548
00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:38.440
Are you sure, she asked. She said that the last

549
00:29:38.440 --> 00:29:41.400
time she had seen Andrew was on Saturday, before her

550
00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:44.519
departure at the airport. She then gave the officer a

551
00:29:44.599 --> 00:29:48.279
completely false alibi. She claimed that on Sunday she had

552
00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:51.160
gone to the zoo, seen a movie riding in cars

553
00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:55.279
with boys, and picked up McDonald's for dinner. Later that evening,

554
00:29:55.400 --> 00:29:57.640
she said she'd developed a migraine that forced her to

555
00:29:57.680 --> 00:29:59.920
call off work for the next day, and she had

556
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:03.119
spent all of Monday in bed. She admitted to owning

557
00:30:03.160 --> 00:30:05.920
a firearm, but said she wasn't one hundred percent sure

558
00:30:05.960 --> 00:30:09.680
where it was. Officer Gardner requested that Shirley be ready

559
00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:12.279
to hand the gun over to her local police officers,

560
00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:14.440
who were about to pay a visit to her home.

561
00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:17.440
When the officers arrived, she told them that the gun

562
00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:20.480
was missing and had likely been stolen from her car.

563
00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:23.640
She didn't mention that Andrew had broken things off with her.

564
00:30:24.079 --> 00:30:26.519
She had a trip planned to Latrobe for the end

565
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:30.440
of November. On November ninth, a search warrant was executed

566
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:34.039
at Shirley's apartment. She had called Officer Gardner that morning

567
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:36.759
and changed her story. She told him that she had

568
00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:39.359
lied that she had given her gun to Andrew and

569
00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:43.200
Latrobe and left it in his apartment. In Shirley's bathroom,

570
00:30:43.400 --> 00:30:46.839
investigators found an empty box of condoms in the trash,

571
00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:50.720
the same brand listed on a receipt recovered from Andrew's wallet.

572
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:53.720
The police have no idea why this box, how this

573
00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:56.039
box of condoms got there, I mean, other than Shirley

574
00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:58.440
some Why would she have picked that up and brought

575
00:30:58.440 --> 00:30:59.599
it back to her, I don't know.

576
00:31:00.200 --> 00:31:03.240
On November twelfth, she left behind her life in Iowa,

577
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:06.319
including her car and most of her possessions, and flew

578
00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:09.680
to Toronto. She bought a round trip ticket with a

579
00:31:09.759 --> 00:31:13.079
return date of November thirtieth, but she never again set

580
00:31:13.079 --> 00:31:16.279
foot in the United States. Shirley told people that she

581
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:19.279
had fled to Canada because she was afraid that Andrew's

582
00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:23.160
murderer would find her and murder her too. But remember,

583
00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:26.200
Shirley was a talker. She had a compulsive need to

584
00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:29.599
insert herself into the lives of those around her, often

585
00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:33.359
in ways that felt intrusive and unwelcome. In the days

586
00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:36.440
following the murder, she reached out to Andrew's friends, who

587
00:31:36.599 --> 00:31:40.160
she considered to be her friends too, to discuss the tragedy.

588
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:43.920
The problem was her lack of a consistent script. She

589
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:47.119
was telling different versions of the same story to different people,

590
00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:50.440
and the lies were beginning to overlap. It was this

591
00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:54.319
inability to maintain a singular narrative that first started raising

592
00:31:54.359 --> 00:31:57.440
alarm bells among those who knew Andrew best. When they

593
00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:01.160
compared notes. Within a few days, Shirley admitted that she

594
00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:04.039
had been in Pennsylvania on the day of Andrew's death.

595
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:06.519
She even admitted that she had met him in the

596
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:09.880
park and handed over her gun to him. She explained

597
00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:11.960
to one of his friends that he had called her

598
00:32:12.039 --> 00:32:14.359
and asked her to bring the gun to him. She

599
00:32:14.519 --> 00:32:16.960
claimed that Andrew had accepted the gun and put it

600
00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:19.799
in his trunk before she drove off into the night.

601
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:23.000
She blamed her shifting story on the sedatives that she

602
00:32:23.079 --> 00:32:26.559
had been taking since Andrew's murder. This story is just

603
00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:27.599
so full.

604
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:30.200
Of holes, and it makes no sense that she would

605
00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:33.759
drive one thousand miles to deliver her gun to him.

606
00:32:33.799 --> 00:32:34.359
No, none of it.

607
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:36.480
He had no reason to want this gun.

608
00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:39.759
Yeah, it seems pretty obvious what happened here. Kate and

609
00:32:39.880 --> 00:32:43.000
David Bagbee stayed in Latrobe for two weeks during the

610
00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:47.519
initial stages of the investigation. Andrew's friends offered them friendship,

611
00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:50.880
support and meals. As they drove back to their home

612
00:32:50.920 --> 00:32:53.839
in California, the police encouraged them to reach out to

613
00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:57.279
Shirley to ask her to attend the memorial service for Andrew,

614
00:32:57.519 --> 00:33:00.599
hoping to get her back in the United States. By now,

615
00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:03.759
the Bagbies were almost certain that Shirley had killed their son.

616
00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:07.400
They knew exactly who she was, a skilled liar and

617
00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:11.480
a masterful manipulator. During one phone call, Shirley dropped a

618
00:33:11.559 --> 00:33:15.400
bombshell that changed everything. She told David she was six

619
00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:20.200
weeks pregnant with Andrew's child. David's head spun. If true,

620
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:24.559
it was remarkably happy, if not complicated news. But was

621
00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:28.119
she actually telling the truth for once? And if she was,

622
00:33:28.119 --> 00:33:31.839
was the baby really Andrews. Shirley was over forty, which

623
00:33:31.880 --> 00:33:34.119
meant that if there really was a baby, this was

624
00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:37.119
a high risk pregnancy from day one, and they needed

625
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:40.319
to treat this with kid gloves, which would be challenging

626
00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:43.440
given how they felt about her. On November twenty ninth,

627
00:33:43.480 --> 00:33:46.960
two thousand and one, Pennsylvania State Police issued an arrest

628
00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:50.039
warrant for Shirley Turner. By then, she had fled her

629
00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:53.519
home in Council Bluffs to seek refuge with family in Canada.

630
00:33:54.039 --> 00:33:57.319
While the physical crime scene offered little, when cell phone

631
00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:00.559
data surfaced, it tied her directly to the lotion of

632
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:05.480
Andrew's body. The US immediately moved to begin the extradition process.

633
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:10.000
The US and Canada have a longstanding extradition treaty, one

634
00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:13.320
of the most cooperative and friendly cross border law enforcement

635
00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:16.519
relationships in the world, but Canada does not believe in

636
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:20.119
the death penalty and refuses to hand over someone when

637
00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:23.639
the death penalty is a possibility. Because Shirley had fled

638
00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:27.519
to Canada, Pennsylvania prosecutors were stuck in a legal corner.

639
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:31.119
To get her back, Pennsylvania had to promise the Canadian

640
00:34:31.159 --> 00:34:34.360
government that they would not seek the death penalty, a

641
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:38.400
standard requirement for extradition that essentially took the most severe

642
00:34:38.440 --> 00:34:42.880
punishment off the table, but because there were no aggravating factors,

643
00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:47.400
she would not effaced the death penalty regardless. Shirley evaded

644
00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:50.800
a rest until December twelfth, when she was detained by

645
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:54.719
Saint John's police. Within hours, she walked free on seventy

646
00:34:54.760 --> 00:34:58.400
five thousand dollars bail, ordered to return for an extradition

647
00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:02.559
hearing in February. Two friends pledged five thousand dollars each,

648
00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:07.000
and her own psychiatrist covered the remaining sixty five thousand dollars,

649
00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:11.639
a massive ethical red flag that is really a strange,

650
00:35:11.800 --> 00:35:15.360
insane twist. Yeah, but no one had to actually pony

651
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:18.000
up any cash. They just had to sign their names

652
00:35:18.039 --> 00:35:21.159
and promise the money was there if she violated the

653
00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:24.199
terms of her release. Because of the way the Canadian

654
00:35:24.280 --> 00:35:27.440
legal system works. There was no quick fix to get

655
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:32.039
Shirley back to the US to face charges. Extradition requires

656
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:35.199
a massive amount of red tape and due process, which

657
00:35:35.199 --> 00:35:37.679
meant that Shirley was actually allowed to be out on

658
00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:41.280
bail while the courts chewed through the paperwork. For the

659
00:35:41.320 --> 00:35:45.159
bag Bees, this was the start of an agonizing uphill battle.

660
00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:48.519
They were stuck in a torturous loop of legal delays

661
00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:52.639
while the woman they believed killed their son was walking free.

662
00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:56.760
In Canada, the extradition process is famously slow, moving through

663
00:35:56.840 --> 00:36:00.400
four distinct phases that can each take months or even

664
00:36:00.519 --> 00:36:04.519
years to resolve. First, there's the initial request from the

665
00:36:04.599 --> 00:36:07.440
US to Canada, which can take up to sixty days

666
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:10.519
for the US to make a formal request. Then it

667
00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:14.400
moves to the authority to proceed phase, where the Department

668
00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:17.519
of Justice reviews the request from the US to make

669
00:36:17.559 --> 00:36:20.519
sure the crime is actually a crime in both countries,

670
00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:24.559
which must be answered within thirty days. Next comes the

671
00:36:24.679 --> 00:36:27.719
judicial phase. A judge has to decide if there is

672
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:30.960
enough evidence to even send the person to trial. It's

673
00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:33.320
not a full trial, but it's a hurdle that the

674
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:37.320
prosecution has to clear. This can take up to ninety days.

675
00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:41.960
Finally it reaches the ministerial phase. This is the political

676
00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:45.199
part where the Minister of Justice personally signs off on

677
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:48.400
the surrender. If the judge signs off, the person is

678
00:36:48.519 --> 00:36:52.960
usually transferred within forty five days, but oftentimes appeals are

679
00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:55.840
filed and that's when things can get held up for years.

680
00:36:56.559 --> 00:37:00.760
In Canada, ninety percent of people fighting extradition events lose,

681
00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:04.840
but they never lose quickly. Even a fast case takes

682
00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:07.400
over a year. If they have a good lawyer and

683
00:37:07.480 --> 00:37:11.239
a constitutional argument. You aren't looking at months anymore. You're

684
00:37:11.280 --> 00:37:14.400
looking at a three to five year weight, especially when

685
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:18.079
the appeal goes to the Supreme Court of Canada. It's

686
00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:20.880
so frustrating. I know, it's sousing. I know, it's just

687
00:37:20.920 --> 00:37:24.360
the nature of things when you're extraditing across countries. There's

688
00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:27.519
got to be a lot of rules and processes in place,

689
00:37:27.639 --> 00:37:29.639
but it just takes such a long time.

690
00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:32.920
We talk a lot about this in US cases too,

691
00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:35.920
But if you are charged with first degree murder, should

692
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:37.519
you be allowed out on bail?

693
00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:40.480
Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, first degree

694
00:37:40.519 --> 00:37:42.559
murder is you know, if you're going to go away

695
00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:45.639
to prison for life. You have a strong incentive to flee,

696
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:46.480
and if.

697
00:37:46.280 --> 00:37:49.840
There is enough evidence to indict you, I don't know

698
00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:53.039
if you should be released. Yeah, in this case, she

699
00:37:53.079 --> 00:37:54.199
certainly should not have been.

700
00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:56.199
We'll be back after a break.

701
00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:05.639
The evidence against Shirley in the shooting death of Andrew

702
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:10.400
was largely circumstantial, but it was substantial enough that Canadian

703
00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:14.920
authorities eventually recommended her for extradition. Here are the key

704
00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:18.320
pieces of evidence that investigators used to build their case.

705
00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:22.280
On the day before Andrew's murder, Surely May the sixteen

706
00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:26.519
hundred kilometer one thousand mile trip from Council Bluffs, Iowa

707
00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:30.719
to Littroe, Pennsylvania, and eyewitness at Keystone State Park, where

708
00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:34.599
Andrew's body was found, reported seeing a Toyota RAB four

709
00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:37.840
with out of state plates parked next to Andrew's Toyota

710
00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:41.760
Corolla near the time of the shooting. Investigators tracked Shirley's

711
00:38:41.800 --> 00:38:44.440
movements through cell tower pings that placed her in the

712
00:38:44.519 --> 00:38:47.840
vicinity of the crime scene during the estimated time of death.

713
00:38:48.280 --> 00:38:52.239
Shirley had recently purchased the Phoenix Arms twenty two caliber pistol.

714
00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:56.400
Andrew was shot five times with twenty two caliber bullets

715
00:38:56.480 --> 00:39:00.159
and remember there was that spent casing at the scene too.

716
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:04.519
Andrew had officially ended their relationship, which was enough for

717
00:39:04.599 --> 00:39:08.360
a motive. After the murder, Shirley gave conflicting accounts of

718
00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:10.920
her whereabouts, claiming that she was sick in bed in

719
00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:15.360
Iowa when she was actually driving. Shirley was not able

720
00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:18.320
to produce the murder weapon, and the murder weapon actually

721
00:39:18.360 --> 00:39:21.519
was never found. She fled to Canada, which to be

722
00:39:21.559 --> 00:39:23.639
if that's like a little bit of number woman, right,

723
00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:28.119
there were no other viable suspects. When Shirley's car was

724
00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:32.199
finally seized, police found it had been professionally detailed, which

725
00:39:32.239 --> 00:39:35.960
investigators believed was an attempt to remove gunshot residue and

726
00:39:36.079 --> 00:39:40.480
blood evidence. The evidence may be circumstantial, but together it's

727
00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:43.360
hard to ignore. Well, no one saw her pool the trigger.

728
00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:47.960
The sheer volume of coincidences created a mathematical impossibility for

729
00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:51.360
her innocence. In legal terms, this is often called the

730
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:55.159
web of circumvention, where each individual thread might be thin,

731
00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:57.119
but together they're unbreakable.

732
00:39:57.320 --> 00:40:00.000
I've never heard that term before, but it makes perfect sense.

733
00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:03.840
On February fifth, Shirley announced to the media that she

734
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:07.880
was pregnant, with Andrew's child due and July. Initially, Kate

735
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:10.920
sixty one and David fifty six weren't sure how to

736
00:40:10.960 --> 00:40:14.320
approach the pregnancy, but Kate quickly decided that once the

737
00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:16.880
baby was born, if he or she proved to be

738
00:40:16.920 --> 00:40:20.159
their grandchild, they would pursue custody, but they would have

739
00:40:20.199 --> 00:40:23.199
to relocate to Canada while the case played out in court.

740
00:40:23.800 --> 00:40:27.920
Immigration in Canada is as complex as extradition. You can't

741
00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:31.039
just move there on a whim. However, the Bagbies were

742
00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:33.360
able to stay for six months at a time on

743
00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:37.199
a visitor's visa, and they did exactly that. On June eighth,

744
00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:39.639
about a month before the baby was to arrive, they

745
00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:42.760
moved to Saint John's. They'd done their due diligence too,

746
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:46.119
asking four younger couples to act as back up parents

747
00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:49.199
because they were a little older. Each couple wrote letters

748
00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:51.480
of intent to the court that they would be active

749
00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:54.559
participants in the baby's life in the event that something

750
00:40:54.599 --> 00:40:57.480
happened to Kate or David. Are you familiar at all

751
00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:00.199
with the geography of this area that we're talking about,

752
00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:01.480
Saint John's.

753
00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:05.000
And Newfoundland only from like books that we've read. I

754
00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:07.239
think The Shipping News was a really great book set

755
00:41:07.239 --> 00:41:10.440
in Newfoundland. So I have a picture in my mind

756
00:41:10.519 --> 00:41:10.960
just from that.

757
00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:14.239
Well, if you look at a map, it's very isolated

758
00:41:14.920 --> 00:41:18.760
and it's treacherous, like it's the weather there. If there

759
00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:20.880
weren't bad weather, they would have no weather at all.

760
00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:24.400
They say, yeah, it's a very rugged terrain to well.

761
00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:27.800
In December two thousand and one, the province of Newfoundland

762
00:41:28.039 --> 00:41:33.119
officially changed its name to Newfoundland and Labrador. Newfoundland is

763
00:41:33.199 --> 00:41:38.199
an island of profound geographic isolation and atmospheric extremes, home

764
00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:41.679
to approximately five hundred and forty thousand people, making it

765
00:41:41.719 --> 00:41:45.800
the ninth most populous of Canada's ten provinces. Known as

766
00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:48.400
the Rock, the island sits at the mercy of the

767
00:41:48.400 --> 00:41:52.159
North Atlantic, where Arctic currents collide with a Gulf stream

768
00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:55.679
to create a volatile climate. It is the foggiest and

769
00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:59.840
windiest province in Canada, and during a staggering eleven feet

770
00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:03.280
of snow and four feet of rain every year, thick

771
00:42:03.320 --> 00:42:07.039
gray mists can swallow the coastline in minutes, and hurricane

772
00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:11.199
forest winds frequently batter the shore. Yet the harshness of

773
00:42:11.239 --> 00:42:14.840
the landscape is deeply balanced by the legendary graciousness of

774
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:19.920
its inhabitants. Despite the rugged environment, Newfoundlanders are known for

775
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:23.480
a unique blend of hospitality that treats strangers like kin,

776
00:42:23.800 --> 00:42:27.159
offering a communal warmth that makes the isolated island feel

777
00:42:27.159 --> 00:42:28.639
like a tight knit neighborhood.

778
00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:31.239
I have some friends from Canada and they refer to

779
00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:33.119
people from Newfoundland as new Fees.

780
00:42:33.239 --> 00:42:35.760
Yeah. I think just like how we call people in

781
00:42:35.800 --> 00:42:39.880
the Upper Peninsula ubers yep, right, And I think like

782
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:42.960
the Upper peninsul of Canada is a little bit like

783
00:42:43.480 --> 00:42:47.760
Newfoundland because it's, you know, just kind of isolated out there.

784
00:42:47.480 --> 00:42:50.079
In not a lot of population density, like there's a

785
00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:51.199
lot of space around.

786
00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:55.280
Well, it's probably much worse though, in Newfoundland than in

787
00:42:55.400 --> 00:42:59.960
Marquette or because that's the Great Lake, where in Newfoundland

788
00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:06.280
it's the Zachary Andrew Turner was born on July eighteenth,

789
00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:09.599
two thousand and two, in Saint John's. Kate and David

790
00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:12.320
went to the hospital, but Shirley would not allow them

791
00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:15.199
to see the baby. The bagbes knew they needed to

792
00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:18.159
proceed carefully. They were dealing with a woman who had

793
00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:21.840
killed their son, after all. They requested a paternity test.

794
00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:24.519
It was of great concern what would happen if Shirley

795
00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:27.639
went to prison. She had no family who could take Zachary,

796
00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:30.119
and unless there was an order in place, he'd be

797
00:43:30.199 --> 00:43:32.920
sent to a foster home. By the time Zachary was

798
00:43:32.920 --> 00:43:35.719
a month old, the Bagbies still hadn't been allowed to

799
00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:39.559
meet him. They initially pushed for two one hour visits

800
00:43:39.559 --> 00:43:42.920
without Shirley present each week, even serving her a court

801
00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:47.000
order to prevent her from fleeing Saint John's with the child. Eventually,

802
00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:50.480
a tense compromise was reached. If the Bagbies agreed to

803
00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:53.800
let Shirley leave the city to introduce Zachary to her

804
00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:57.079
extended family, they would be granted a single hour of

805
00:43:57.159 --> 00:44:01.960
supervised visitation at a neutral government office. Kate and David

806
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:05.599
were bewitched women at the Sweet Baby. No paternity test

807
00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:08.519
was needed. It was clear that Zachary was theirs. He

808
00:44:08.559 --> 00:44:11.599
looked just like Andrew, except for his strawberry blonde hair

809
00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:14.440
that he got from his mother. As the weeks ticked by,

810
00:44:14.840 --> 00:44:17.920
they fell head over heels for Zachary. There was a

811
00:44:17.960 --> 00:44:21.480
thin layer of civility between the Bagbes and Shirley. At

812
00:44:21.519 --> 00:44:25.119
every meeting they exchanged photos, and Kate and David brought

813
00:44:25.159 --> 00:44:28.360
diapers or a formula for the baby. Eventually they bought

814
00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:31.159
him a crib, clothing and took care of most of

815
00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:34.639
his needs. Shirley hadn't returned to work since her arrest.

816
00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:38.360
Now her youngest daughter lived with her too. After months

817
00:44:38.360 --> 00:44:41.880
of legal maneuvering, Kate and David were awarded with an

818
00:44:41.920 --> 00:44:45.159
additional hour with Zachary each week, but their time with

819
00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:47.960
the baby would now have to be at Shirley's apartment.

820
00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:50.519
It was odd for the bag Bees to set foot

821
00:44:50.559 --> 00:44:54.039
inside the domicile of their son's suspected killer, but they'd

822
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:58.320
tolerate anything for extra time snuggling their grandson. They knew

823
00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:01.320
it was important to have a steadfa bond with Zachary.

824
00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:05.559
If the court ruled against Shirley at her upcoming extradition hearing,

825
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:09.280
she'd soon be behind bars and they'd have full custody

826
00:45:09.320 --> 00:45:13.639
of Zachary. And that's exactly what happened. On November fourteenth,

827
00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:17.400
Shirley was taken to jail, but not extradited. The judge

828
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:19.719
ruled there was enough evidence of her guilt for her

829
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:23.519
to remain behind bars while the court finished deciding on

830
00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:25.039
the extradition itself.

831
00:45:25.599 --> 00:45:27.880
While this is what the bag Bees had been hoping

832
00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:31.400
for since Zachary's birth four months earlier, they were also

833
00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:34.559
deeply sad. It was an adjustment for the baby to

834
00:45:34.599 --> 00:45:38.559
be ripped from his nursing mother's arms. When Zachary wailed,

835
00:45:38.679 --> 00:45:41.440
they knew it was his mother he sought. Despite the

836
00:45:41.559 --> 00:45:45.480
vitriol they felt for Shirley, they felt empathy for everyone involved.

837
00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:49.920
But soon Zachary adapted and thrived under his grandparents care.

838
00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:52.679
Once a week they took him to the jail two

839
00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:55.480
hours away to see Shirley, and they talked with her

840
00:45:55.599 --> 00:45:56.920
each day on the phone.

841
00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:00.400
All of this was super hard on Kate and David.

842
00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:02.360
We talked about the weather and they had to go

843
00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:05.239
see Shirley two hours away, and it's the winter, so

844
00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:09.519
it's exceptionally treacherous. And I think she had three two

845
00:46:09.559 --> 00:46:12.320
hour periods that were visiting hours, and they took her

846
00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:16.119
to those three sessions. So they would take Zachary back

847
00:46:16.159 --> 00:46:18.119
to a hotel where they had to stay at for naps,

848
00:46:18.119 --> 00:46:20.920
and then they would deliver them. And they hate this woman,

849
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:22.239
I know so much.

850
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:24.800
I can't even imagine trying to be civil to her.

851
00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:26.039
But obviously they had to be.

852
00:46:26.280 --> 00:46:28.119
And I feel kind of bad because she never had

853
00:46:28.119 --> 00:46:30.280
her day in court, and I'm referring to her as

854
00:46:30.320 --> 00:46:34.320
a murderer, but I mean, we know that she murdered Andrew. Yeah,

855
00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:36.639
there's really no question about it. And just to have

856
00:46:36.760 --> 00:46:40.480
to be polite, Yeah, that must have been.

857
00:46:40.599 --> 00:46:42.239
Just possible, really really difficult.

858
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:45.519
Shirley's younger daughter was also in Saint John's with her.

859
00:46:45.599 --> 00:46:47.519
I think her son was there and he was looking

860
00:46:47.559 --> 00:46:50.000
after her. But the Bagbies are such nice people that

861
00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:53.159
they let the daughter come over and spend time with Zachary,

862
00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:55.519
and you know, they made sure she had food and

863
00:46:55.880 --> 00:46:57.280
so they were taking care of her too.

864
00:46:57.480 --> 00:47:01.480
Oh man, I can't even imagine. Two before Christmas two

865
00:47:01.519 --> 00:47:05.000
thousand and two, the bag Bees received confirmation that Andrew

866
00:47:05.239 --> 00:47:09.039
was Zachary's biological father. They weren't surprised, of course, but

867
00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:12.280
grateful to have confirmation. I was going to say earlier

868
00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:14.880
that watching the documentary, you get to see a lot

869
00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:16.960
of Zachary and you get to see a lot of

870
00:47:17.159 --> 00:47:20.519
childhood photos of Andrew, and it is just so clear

871
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:22.800
that they are father and son.

872
00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:25.480
Well, they have the same little chubby body type. It

873
00:47:25.639 --> 00:47:26.599
just is so cute.

874
00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:29.559
By January two thousand and three, there was a glimmer

875
00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:32.760
of hope that the system was working. Shirley was behind

876
00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:35.920
bars and the bag Bees had custody of Zachary, but

877
00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:39.800
the calm didn't last. In a move that absolutely floored

878
00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:43.840
the bag Bees and the Pennsylvania investigators, a judge granted

879
00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:48.400
Shirley release again as well as custody of Zachary, after

880
00:47:48.440 --> 00:47:51.920
her lawyers successfully argued that she wasn't a flight risk

881
00:47:52.280 --> 00:47:53.639
or a danger to the public.

882
00:47:53.920 --> 00:47:55.880
I need to jump in here and tell you that

883
00:47:55.920 --> 00:48:00.480
she was never given a psychiatric evaluation. No, no, which

884
00:48:00.519 --> 00:48:01.480
is really disturbing.

885
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:03.840
It's just disturbing that they think they.

886
00:48:03.760 --> 00:48:05.920
Really looked into her background. They see that she had

887
00:48:05.960 --> 00:48:10.400
a child abuse allegation against her, that you know, her

888
00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:13.440
ex boyfriend had filed charges against her for you know,

889
00:48:13.519 --> 00:48:15.480
harassment and stock or behavior.

890
00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:19.079
Even without all that, you're you're you know, you're suspected

891
00:48:19.239 --> 00:48:23.800
of killing someone in cold infant over. I know, it

892
00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:26.039
just makes no sense. And you're handing that the infant

893
00:48:26.119 --> 00:48:28.239
is the child of the person you killed too, which

894
00:48:28.599 --> 00:48:30.920
just makes it that much worse. So, yeah, it's it's

895
00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:33.920
mind boggling. She walked out of jail and back into

896
00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:37.760
her apartment, while the extradition process continued to crawl along.

897
00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:41.199
For Kate and David, it felt like the ultimate betrayal

898
00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:44.400
of the justice system. The woman they believed killed their

899
00:48:44.440 --> 00:48:47.079
son was now free to walk out of jail and

900
00:48:47.159 --> 00:48:50.480
pull their grandson right out of their firm, loving grasp.

901
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:54.599
There was one small silver lining. The new visitation agreement

902
00:48:54.679 --> 00:48:57.920
was much more liberal. It allowed for six visits every

903
00:48:57.920 --> 00:49:01.400
two weeks, including an overnight stay, a daily phone call,

904
00:49:01.639 --> 00:49:05.920
and even babysitting privileges. Strange as it was, Shirley seemed

905
00:49:05.920 --> 00:49:09.800
to crave the bagbe's acceptance and company, often giving them

906
00:49:09.880 --> 00:49:13.360
even more time than the court required. Zachary formed a

907
00:49:13.400 --> 00:49:16.599
strong bond with Kate, and when she was present, chose

908
00:49:16.639 --> 00:49:19.679
her over Shirley. I bet Shirley did not like that

909
00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:23.159
one bit. No, she did not, But for David every

910
00:49:23.199 --> 00:49:25.840
second was a battle. He wrote in his book that

911
00:49:26.039 --> 00:49:29.400
they simply loved Zachary more than they hated Shirley, but

912
00:49:29.480 --> 00:49:33.079
that didn't make the hatred go away. He loathed Shirley,

913
00:49:33.519 --> 00:49:36.119
while Kate seemed to find a way to relate to Shirley.

914
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:40.719
Mother to mother, David's anger constantly bubbled just beneath the surface.

915
00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:44.480
He spent every visit biting his tongue, knowing that one

916
00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:47.960
mention of the murder or the extradition could make Shirley

917
00:49:48.039 --> 00:49:51.480
snap and pull Zachary away from them forever. She had

918
00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:54.239
the upper hand, and they all knew it for surely.

919
00:49:54.400 --> 00:49:57.599
It was all about leverage. When Kate and David refused

920
00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:00.599
to talk about the case without legal counsel press she

921
00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:03.800
started to pull back. She openly wondered if she had

922
00:50:03.800 --> 00:50:06.960
given them too much access, making it clear that Zachary

923
00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:10.159
wasn't her son in her eyes, he was her bargaining chip.

924
00:50:10.519 --> 00:50:13.519
When the Bagbies refused to visit a psychologist with her,

925
00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:17.360
she pulled back, canceled several visits, and took away any

926
00:50:17.400 --> 00:50:21.039
extra time. Whenever Kate and David went to their attorneys

927
00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:24.400
rather than to her, Shirley made things even more difficult

928
00:50:24.440 --> 00:50:27.880
for them. Shirley threw a first birthday party for Zachary

929
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:31.159
at McDonald's the baby had just begun to walk, and

930
00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:33.840
made it clear that Kate was the one who he

931
00:50:33.880 --> 00:50:37.639
went to for comfort, choosing her over his mother. Shirley

932
00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:41.039
became visibly angry and lashed out at Kate. He obviously

933
00:50:41.079 --> 00:50:43.760
loves you more, Go ahead and take him. The bag

934
00:50:43.800 --> 00:50:48.360
Bees never underestimated Shirley. Their absolute greatest fear was that

935
00:50:48.440 --> 00:50:51.800
she would harm Zachary, just despite them. She had already

936
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:55.000
taken Andrew away from them, and they lived with the constant,

937
00:50:55.159 --> 00:50:58.440
terrifying thought that if Shirley didn't get her way, she

938
00:50:58.519 --> 00:51:01.679
would make sure no one else could either. When David

939
00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:04.119
laid in bad at night, sometimes his mind went to

940
00:51:04.239 --> 00:51:08.199
dark places. He considered killing Shirley. It was the only

941
00:51:08.239 --> 00:51:11.519
way to keep Zachary safe. He knew Kate could handle

942
00:51:11.559 --> 00:51:12.559
the baby on her own.

943
00:51:13.159 --> 00:51:15.960
Shirley started dating a new man, and for Kate and

944
00:51:16.039 --> 00:51:20.519
David this was a godsend. She was happier, busy, and distracted.

945
00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:24.559
Suddenly she was asking them to babysit more often, even

946
00:51:24.599 --> 00:51:28.400
granting them those precious extra overnights. But the reprieve was

947
00:51:28.480 --> 00:51:32.039
short lived. The relationship fizzled when the man learned the

948
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:35.320
truth about the murder charge against her in Pennsylvania, and

949
00:51:35.360 --> 00:51:39.000
that's when the old Shirley returned. She spiraled into her

950
00:51:39.079 --> 00:51:43.079
old obsessive patterns. A barrage of relentless phone calls as

951
00:51:43.119 --> 00:51:46.440
many as two hundred a day. They became so suffocating

952
00:51:46.519 --> 00:51:48.639
the man eventually had to call the police to get

953
00:51:48.639 --> 00:51:51.360
her to stop the bag. Bees watched it all unfold,

954
00:51:51.800 --> 00:51:54.840
knowing exactly what this version of Shirley was capable of.

955
00:51:55.519 --> 00:51:58.599
On August seventeenth, two thousand and three, a month after

956
00:51:58.679 --> 00:52:02.360
Zachary's first birthday, Surely got a prescription for Adavan from

957
00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:07.679
her psychiatrist, a benzodiazepine that can cause drowsiness. That evening,

958
00:52:07.719 --> 00:52:10.840
she wrote letters to several friends. At midnight, she buckled

959
00:52:10.920 --> 00:52:13.960
Zachary into his car seat, barrowing her older son's car,

960
00:52:14.239 --> 00:52:16.920
and drove off into the night. It was dark and rainy.

961
00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:19.960
She stopped at a nursing home, seeking directions to an

962
00:52:19.960 --> 00:52:24.320
address for Job's Road in Conception Bay, her ex boyfriend's house.

963
00:52:24.920 --> 00:52:28.199
The boyfriend worked as an ambulance driver. She stopped at

964
00:52:28.199 --> 00:52:30.320
his place of work and slipped a picture of herself

965
00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:32.800
in the door of his ambulance. Then she drove to

966
00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:36.039
his house and placed a used tampon and two pictures

967
00:52:36.079 --> 00:52:39.199
under his car, one of herself an underwear and one

968
00:52:39.199 --> 00:52:42.480
of Zachary in her manic state. She got stuck in

969
00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:45.239
a ditch when the car wouldn't budge. She got out

970
00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:47.800
of the car and walked alongside the road which hugged

971
00:52:47.840 --> 00:52:51.760
the coastline, heading towards a marina. Shirley had fed Zachary

972
00:52:51.880 --> 00:52:56.039
formula laced with adavan and taken some herself. A security

973
00:52:56.039 --> 00:52:58.599
guard at the marina thought he heard a baby crying

974
00:52:58.639 --> 00:53:02.599
around three a m. Somewhere soon after, Shirley jumped into

975
00:53:02.679 --> 00:53:06.199
the Atlantic Ocean with Zachary bound to her with her sweater.

976
00:53:06.880 --> 00:53:10.320
The next morning, Shirley's son reported her and Zachary missing.

977
00:53:10.760 --> 00:53:14.159
The bagbies weren't informed until that afternoon. They'd become all

978
00:53:14.199 --> 00:53:18.079
too familiar with receiving the very worst news. That evening,

979
00:53:18.199 --> 00:53:22.760
Shirley and Zachary's bodies washed ashore. Kate and David, inconsolable,

980
00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:27.360
identified the bodies. David described their grief as primitive, but

981
00:53:27.400 --> 00:53:30.639
their profound grief was also met with an exceptional rage

982
00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:33.599
at Shirley, of course, but also at the system that

983
00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:38.480
had repeatedly underestimated a killer. With their world shattered, Kate

984
00:53:38.599 --> 00:53:41.880
and David did what resilient people do. They turned their

985
00:53:41.920 --> 00:53:45.079
pain into action. They set their sights on a new battle,

986
00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:48.119
vowing that they would never ever let another family be

987
00:53:48.239 --> 00:53:52.400
destroyed by the same legal loopholes that took Andrew and Zachary.

988
00:53:52.880 --> 00:53:56.320
After the funerals were over, a massive, years long investigation

989
00:53:56.599 --> 00:53:59.639
was launched into how Zachary's death could have been avoided.

990
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:03.400
Over one hundred and fifty people, including the Bagbies, were interviewed.

991
00:54:03.719 --> 00:54:06.679
In two thousand and six, the Canadian government released their

992
00:54:06.719 --> 00:54:11.079
Turner Review, a massive, sixteen hundred page indictment of the system.

993
00:54:11.519 --> 00:54:14.599
The findings were a gut punch. The report confirmed that

994
00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:19.840
Zachary's death was entirely preventable. It described a systematic blindness

995
00:54:19.840 --> 00:54:22.800
where the courts were so obsessed with Shirley's Turner's rights

996
00:54:22.880 --> 00:54:26.239
as an accused killer that they completely ignored the very

997
00:54:26.280 --> 00:54:29.880
real danger she posed to her own son. Kate and

998
00:54:29.960 --> 00:54:32.679
David took that report and went to war. They weren't

999
00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:36.440
interested in apologies. They wanted change. The Bagbes argued that

1000
00:54:36.440 --> 00:54:38.400
a system had a blind spot when it came to

1001
00:54:38.440 --> 00:54:41.599
the safety of children in custody disputes involving a parent

1002
00:54:41.679 --> 00:54:45.679
accused of murder. They spent years lobbying in Ottawa, turning

1003
00:54:45.719 --> 00:54:49.840
their private heartbreak into a public demand for accountability. Their

1004
00:54:49.960 --> 00:54:53.519
mission was boosted by the documentary Dear Zachary, which put

1005
00:54:53.519 --> 00:54:56.119
a face to the failures of the system and made

1006
00:54:56.119 --> 00:54:59.719
it impossible for politicians to look away. The Bagbies wanted

1007
00:54:59.719 --> 00:55:02.039
to win sure that if a person is charged with

1008
00:55:02.119 --> 00:55:05.760
a serious crime, like the murder of the other parent,

1009
00:55:06.119 --> 00:55:09.440
the court must consider the safety of the children before

1010
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:13.280
granting bail. David and Kate didn't just sign petitions. They

1011
00:55:13.320 --> 00:55:18.400
traveled to Ottawa, testified before parliamentary committees, and did countless interviews.

1012
00:55:18.760 --> 00:55:21.519
They forced the politicians to look up photos of Zachary

1013
00:55:21.559 --> 00:55:25.599
and explain why his life wasn't considered a public safety risk.

1014
00:55:26.159 --> 00:55:29.960
On December sixteenth, twenty ten, they finally won. Bill C

1015
00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:33.760
four sixty four, better known as Zachary's Bill, was signed

1016
00:55:33.800 --> 00:55:38.000
into law. It fundamentally changed the Canadian Criminal Code, forcing

1017
00:55:38.119 --> 00:55:41.320
judges to consider the safety of children before ever granting

1018
00:55:41.320 --> 00:55:43.960
bail to a parent accused of a serious crime. The

1019
00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:46.599
blind spot was gone because of Kate and David. The

1020
00:55:46.679 --> 00:55:49.960
law finally recognized that a child's right to safety must

1021
00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:53.480
always outweigh the rights of the accused. The failures later

1022
00:55:53.519 --> 00:55:57.760
prompted changes to Canadian extradition and bail laws, often referred

1023
00:55:57.800 --> 00:56:01.440
to collectively as Zachary's Law in Canada, the law that

1024
00:56:01.480 --> 00:56:05.119
eventually changed as known as Zachary's Bill. Before this, the

1025
00:56:05.159 --> 00:56:09.400
criteria for denying bail were very narrow. Kurt Kenny and

1026
00:56:09.400 --> 00:56:12.800
Andrew Bagbie weren't just friends. They are a creative duo.

1027
00:56:12.920 --> 00:56:15.239
From the time they were seven years old, while other

1028
00:56:15.320 --> 00:56:18.840
kids were out playing baseball, they were making movies, Kurt

1029
00:56:18.840 --> 00:56:22.079
behind the camera and Andrew in front of it. Andrew

1030
00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:25.719
was Kurt's permanent leading man, the charismatic goofy star of

1031
00:56:25.760 --> 00:56:29.480
every home movie Kurt ever directed. Even Andrew's parents, Kate

1032
00:56:29.480 --> 00:56:32.159
and David, were occasionally talking into jumping into a frame.

1033
00:56:32.480 --> 00:56:35.199
When Andrew was murdered, Kurt didn't just lose his best friend,

1034
00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:38.920
he lost his muse. He realized that piecing together years

1035
00:56:38.920 --> 00:56:41.039
of footage wasn't just a way to grieve, It was

1036
00:56:41.159 --> 00:56:44.559
a project he needed to complete for Andrew's family. When

1037
00:56:44.639 --> 00:56:47.960
Kurt learned Shirley was pregnant, his mission shifted. He began

1038
00:56:48.039 --> 00:56:51.800
traveling across the US and the UK, interviewing everyone who

1039
00:56:51.840 --> 00:56:54.639
knew Andrew, so that Zachary, a baby who had never

1040
00:56:54.679 --> 00:56:58.239
met his father, could truly understand the man he came from.

1041
00:56:58.679 --> 00:57:01.639
At that point. It wasn't meant to be a public documentary.

1042
00:57:01.920 --> 00:57:04.199
It was a private gift. It was meant to be

1043
00:57:04.280 --> 00:57:07.679
exactly what the title suggested, a letter to a son.

1044
00:57:08.360 --> 00:57:12.159
But everything changed when the unthinkable happened and Shirley killed Zachary.

1045
00:57:12.440 --> 00:57:14.960
The footage Kurt had been collecting was no longer just

1046
00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:18.239
a memorial. It was evidence of a broken system. The

1047
00:57:18.239 --> 00:57:21.639
film shifted from a quiet personal tribute to a visceral,

1048
00:57:21.880 --> 00:57:25.360
heart wrenching expose. When Dear Zachary, A Letter to a

1049
00:57:25.400 --> 00:57:28.039
Son about his father was released in two thousand and eight,

1050
00:57:28.119 --> 00:57:30.719
it did more than just tell a story. It provoked

1051
00:57:30.760 --> 00:57:34.559
an international outcry. The film turned Kate and David Bagby

1052
00:57:34.639 --> 00:57:37.639
into global symbols of grace and grit. By putting their

1053
00:57:37.639 --> 00:57:41.000
private grief on a world stage, Kerr provided a massive

1054
00:57:41.119 --> 00:57:44.400
signal boost for their legal fight, making it impossible for

1055
00:57:44.440 --> 00:57:47.920
the Canadian government to continue ignoring the deadly loopholes and

1056
00:57:47.960 --> 00:57:51.519
their balen custody laws. The documentary ends not with a

1057
00:57:51.559 --> 00:57:54.360
courtroom or a legal filing, but with Kurt at home

1058
00:57:54.559 --> 00:57:57.079
years later with his own son, a little boy he

1059
00:57:57.199 --> 00:58:00.320
named Andrew. When his son looks into the lens and asks,

1060
00:58:00.400 --> 00:58:02.840
why are you crying. It's a reminder that while of

1061
00:58:02.920 --> 00:58:07.199
Bagbee's one legal reform in Zachary's name, the personal loss

1062
00:58:07.239 --> 00:58:10.800
remains a lifelong wait for those who loved Andrew and Zachary.

1063
00:58:11.239 --> 00:58:14.000
Doctor Andrew Bagbee was a man described by everyone who

1064
00:58:14.079 --> 00:58:16.880
knew him as a living hug, a man so beloved

1065
00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:19.679
he served as a best man for seven different friends.

1066
00:58:20.079 --> 00:58:22.760
He was a dedicated doctor, a loyal friend, and a

1067
00:58:22.760 --> 00:58:25.599
man who would have been a wonderful father. A memorial

1068
00:58:25.639 --> 00:58:29.119
park called Andrew's Park was created as a tribute to Andrew,

1069
00:58:29.280 --> 00:58:32.360
featuring a playground and garden that reflect the impact he

1070
00:58:32.480 --> 00:58:35.800
had on the community of Latrobe during his short time there.

1071
00:58:36.280 --> 00:58:39.519
Zachary Turner, in his short thirteen months, brought profound light

1072
00:58:39.639 --> 00:58:41.960
and love into the world, but especially into the lives

1073
00:58:41.960 --> 00:58:44.840
of his grieving grandparents. He was a child with bright,

1074
00:58:45.039 --> 00:58:48.480
curious eyes and a strong spirit. Rest in peace, Andrew

1075
00:58:48.480 --> 00:58:51.559
and Zachary. I'm sorry that last five minutes was really

1076
00:58:51.599 --> 00:58:52.320
hard to get through.

1077
00:58:52.480 --> 00:58:54.880
I applaud you for getting through that. I was just

1078
00:58:54.920 --> 00:58:58.119
sitting here listening and I was getting very emotional, as Yeah,

1079
00:58:58.239 --> 00:58:59.559
it's a really sad story.

1080
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:02.679
I'll have a lot of questions because you know, it's

1081
00:59:02.679 --> 00:59:06.360
pretty straightforward. But do you think Shirley was evil, mentally

1082
00:59:06.400 --> 00:59:07.280
ill or both.

1083
00:59:08.039 --> 00:59:10.039
I mean, I think you have to be evil to

1084
00:59:10.039 --> 00:59:12.000
do what she did, but I also think she was

1085
00:59:12.039 --> 00:59:14.559
mentally ill. One of the things that struck me in

1086
00:59:14.599 --> 00:59:18.079
watching the documentary is they played a lot of recordings,

1087
00:59:18.199 --> 00:59:20.719
Like she would call David and Kate and like talk

1088
00:59:20.760 --> 00:59:23.079
to them and they would record everything, and you could

1089
00:59:23.119 --> 00:59:25.239
just tell by the way she talked that her mind

1090
00:59:25.599 --> 00:59:27.719
was just you just get this impression of people that

1091
00:59:27.760 --> 00:59:29.880
their mind is bouncing all over the place and that

1092
00:59:29.920 --> 00:59:33.920
their thoughts are not settled, like they're just very manic.

1093
00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:36.800
And she just seemed like she had a lot going

1094
00:59:36.840 --> 00:59:39.440
on in her head and just you know, just seemed

1095
00:59:39.480 --> 00:59:43.039
kind of off in certain ways. It's just it's just

1096
00:59:43.039 --> 00:59:43.519
so sad.

1097
00:59:43.639 --> 00:59:47.039
Yeah, it's devastating. I know we shouldn't diagnose people with

1098
00:59:47.440 --> 00:59:50.639
any illnesses, but she has a lot of the markers

1099
00:59:50.679 --> 00:59:54.199
of borderline personality disorder. Remember that's the one where you

1100
00:59:54.400 --> 00:59:58.199
can't be abandoned. She was always afraid of people leaving her.

1101
00:59:58.320 --> 00:59:59.360
Yeah, I mean that makes sense.

1102
01:00:00.320 --> 01:00:04.960
So devastating that she took Zachary with her. She could

1103
01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:08.679
have left him and you know, just despite Kate and David,

1104
01:00:08.920 --> 01:00:12.320
she killed him too. It's just unforgivable.

1105
01:00:12.519 --> 01:00:13.719
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

1106
01:00:14.159 --> 01:00:16.199
I don't have much else to say other than Shirley

1107
01:00:16.360 --> 01:00:19.679
was a walking red flag. These men that she would

1108
01:00:19.719 --> 01:00:22.119
be dating would try to break up with her, but

1109
01:00:22.280 --> 01:00:24.480
she just wouldn't take no for an answer, and she

1110
01:00:24.639 --> 01:00:26.880
just kept inserting herselves into their lives.

1111
01:00:27.039 --> 01:00:31.000
And yeah, she was gonna snap at some point, regardless

1112
01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:32.960
of whether it was Andrew or someone else. You could

1113
01:00:33.000 --> 01:00:35.480
just tell that that was just you know, she was

1114
01:00:35.960 --> 01:00:37.679
walking red flag. Is a great way to put it.

1115
01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:40.719
So. David Bagbee did write a book called Dance with

1116
01:00:40.760 --> 01:00:44.320
the Devil, a murder of memoir and loss. That was

1117
01:00:44.360 --> 01:00:47.719
my primary source for this episode. Was very well written.

1118
01:00:47.840 --> 01:00:51.079
He goes very deep into a lot of the legal stuff,

1119
01:00:51.159 --> 01:00:54.440
which I mostly lost over. I recommend that, but I

1120
01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:59.320
also read the first five hundred pages of the government report,

1121
01:01:00.119 --> 01:01:04.559
so really interesting. Yeah, we talked about Dear Zachary. It's

1122
01:01:04.639 --> 01:01:06.840
on YouTube. I forgot to mention that at the beginning

1123
01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:08.199
of the episode. It's easy to find.

1124
01:01:08.239 --> 01:01:10.079
Yeah, we'll post a link to it in our showouts.

1125
01:01:10.079 --> 01:01:13.280
It's free, there's no commercials, So I recommend that you

1126
01:01:13.360 --> 01:01:14.880
watch that because it's super touching.

1127
01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:18.440
Yeah. To me, it's just so impressive that David and

1128
01:01:18.519 --> 01:01:21.440
Kate how they were able to move on. It's so

1129
01:01:21.519 --> 01:01:24.199
interesting because when Andrew died, you know, you talked about it,

1130
01:01:24.239 --> 01:01:26.840
the fact that they originally they were going to end

1131
01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:29.440
their own lives because they just couldn't see a reason

1132
01:01:29.480 --> 01:01:31.519
to go on. And now not only did they lose

1133
01:01:31.559 --> 01:01:34.480
their son, but they lost their grandson who was just

1134
01:01:34.519 --> 01:01:36.519
a baby at the time. And yet they found the

1135
01:01:36.559 --> 01:01:40.400
strength and courage to move on and to do, you know,

1136
01:01:40.480 --> 01:01:43.880
to do something really good, to fight for other people

1137
01:01:43.960 --> 01:01:46.760
who could be in that same situation someday. And it's

1138
01:01:46.760 --> 01:01:48.079
just so so impressive.

1139
01:01:48.239 --> 01:01:50.519
I mean, Kate and David are beautiful people, but the

1140
01:01:50.599 --> 01:01:54.079
community of people that surrounded them, yeah, just also just

1141
01:01:54.199 --> 01:01:58.280
lovely people that really supported them and loved them. And

1142
01:01:58.639 --> 01:02:00.920
you know, nothing will ever take the place of Andrew

1143
01:02:01.000 --> 01:02:04.079
or Zachary, but the young people in their lives I

1144
01:02:04.119 --> 01:02:06.639
think have surrounded that and made them part of their family.

1145
01:02:07.559 --> 01:02:10.079
And you know, like like Heather the ex fiance, you know,

1146
01:02:10.280 --> 01:02:13.000
she considers them family. A lot of people consider them family.

1147
01:02:13.159 --> 01:02:16.679
The filmmaker, you know, he's obviously you know, part of

1148
01:02:16.719 --> 01:02:19.480
their family, and it's just kind of makes should make

1149
01:02:19.559 --> 01:02:23.280
us all pause and think that, you know, your family

1150
01:02:23.280 --> 01:02:25.599
doesn't have to just be your biological family. You know,

1151
01:02:25.719 --> 01:02:28.840
if you know people that need somewhere to go on Thanksgiving,

1152
01:02:28.960 --> 01:02:30.800
or you know, just we should open our hearts and

1153
01:02:30.880 --> 01:02:34.000
our lives up to people more and you know, form

1154
01:02:34.039 --> 01:02:36.480
our own communities, because you can tell that that made

1155
01:02:36.480 --> 01:02:38.960
such a huge difference in their lives. Had they not

1156
01:02:39.159 --> 01:02:41.880
had all those friends of Andrew's open up to them,

1157
01:02:41.960 --> 01:02:45.000
they might not be here right and this when I

1158
01:02:45.119 --> 01:02:48.280
was researching the case, I thought that David had passed,

1159
01:02:48.320 --> 01:02:50.400
and originally, in my rest and peace, I had something

1160
01:02:50.400 --> 01:02:52.039
for him. And then today I realized that it was

1161
01:02:52.079 --> 01:02:54.519
a different David Mugby, and he and Kay are still

1162
01:02:54.599 --> 01:02:58.320
with us, so I think they are still doing advocacy work.

1163
01:02:58.960 --> 01:03:00.400
That's just so amazing, that's.

1164
01:03:00.280 --> 01:03:02.639
Great, and that really that sense of that community and

1165
01:03:02.679 --> 01:03:05.840
family really comes through in the documentary. I wonder about

1166
01:03:05.880 --> 01:03:08.519
the judge. I know in the documentary you didn't really

1167
01:03:08.519 --> 01:03:10.440
talk about it much in your script, but in the

1168
01:03:10.440 --> 01:03:13.280
documentary David and Kate were very angry at the judge

1169
01:03:13.480 --> 01:03:16.000
that let her go free, and I just I know

1170
01:03:16.079 --> 01:03:18.800
the system, it's part of the system, and I know

1171
01:03:18.880 --> 01:03:20.920
that David and Kate have worked to change the system.

1172
01:03:20.920 --> 01:03:24.239
But I just wonder how that judge can live with themselves,

1173
01:03:24.280 --> 01:03:27.079
you know, just knowing what happened. It just really it

1174
01:03:27.159 --> 01:03:28.199
bothers me so much.

1175
01:03:28.400 --> 01:03:31.440
I think it's not just that judges, it was just

1176
01:03:31.440 --> 01:03:33.599
something that is just kind of it's it was the

1177
01:03:33.639 --> 01:03:36.559
system at the time. I mean, the system is now changed,

1178
01:03:36.920 --> 01:03:39.719
so you know, you can have peace and that knowing that, right,

1179
01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:42.679
you know, this case has made a difference and where

1180
01:03:42.719 --> 01:03:46.880
people are hopefully alive today because that that has been changed. Yeah,

1181
01:03:47.159 --> 01:03:52.039
part of it was though Surely was well spoken and

1182
01:03:52.159 --> 01:03:55.639
manipulative in a gas lighter, and she was a physician,

1183
01:03:56.119 --> 01:03:58.559
so I think people were like, yeah.

1184
01:03:58.400 --> 01:04:00.280
She came across as very respect to both.

1185
01:04:01.559 --> 01:04:05.199
It's not guilty. Yeah. Well, thank you again Amanda from

1186
01:04:05.239 --> 01:04:08.079
Texas for recommending this case, and thank you Jody for

1187
01:04:08.119 --> 01:04:17.679
the snack. So we try our very best to pronounce

1188
01:04:17.719 --> 01:04:24.119
things correctly Inland that I think we said it the

1189
01:04:24.159 --> 01:04:24.679
right way.

1190
01:04:24.920 --> 01:04:29.360
We did our best best. Googled several videos on it,

1191
01:04:29.440 --> 01:04:31.599
and we listened to them and we did our best.

1192
01:04:31.639 --> 01:04:34.239
But even in some of the videos they said that people.

1193
01:04:34.840 --> 01:04:39.760
Say it differently. Well, to become an honorary Newfoundlander, you

1194
01:04:39.880 --> 01:04:43.719
have to be screeched in, which involves three things. A

1195
01:04:43.760 --> 01:04:47.599
shot of high proof rum, a short recitation, and a

1196
01:04:47.639 --> 01:04:51.920
local dialect that most people can't understand. And kissing a

1197
01:04:51.960 --> 01:04:55.119
frozen codfish.

1198
01:04:55.239 --> 01:04:57.480
I'm okay with like the first one of those.

1199
01:04:57.800 --> 01:05:00.199
Why would you not kiss a frozen fish? I mean

1200
01:05:00.239 --> 01:05:00.840
it's frozen.

1201
01:05:01.199 --> 01:05:02.880
Yeah, yes, I guess I would do that too.

1202
01:05:03.119 --> 01:05:04.920
Well, you may or may not know this about me,

1203
01:05:05.000 --> 01:05:06.880
you know, but not everyone knows. But I am a

1204
01:05:06.960 --> 01:05:08.679
huge fan of mister Rogers.

1205
01:05:09.599 --> 01:05:12.079
Most people are, don't you think we know?

1206
01:05:12.239 --> 01:05:14.440
Like they don't have pictures of him above their desks.

1207
01:05:15.079 --> 01:05:16.320
I have a picture of miss and I have a

1208
01:05:16.360 --> 01:05:19.159
Mister Rogers pin. I just think that there needs to

1209
01:05:19.159 --> 01:05:23.239
be more gentle, kind, slow speaking people. But did you

1210
01:05:23.280 --> 01:05:25.880
know that his mother made all of his sweaters for

1211
01:05:25.920 --> 01:05:26.320
the show.

1212
01:05:26.480 --> 01:05:27.440
I did not know that.

1213
01:05:27.480 --> 01:05:30.000
And I think every year for Christmas she gave him

1214
01:05:30.039 --> 01:05:32.559
a new one. That's where they were so special to him.

1215
01:05:32.599 --> 01:05:33.480
Oh it's so sweet.

1216
01:05:33.599 --> 01:05:37.960
Yeah. And also, speaking of Latrobe, the banana split, like

1217
01:05:38.079 --> 01:05:41.599
we said earlier, was invented. I don't know if it's invented.

1218
01:05:41.639 --> 01:05:42.800
Is that the right word to create?

1219
01:05:42.880 --> 01:05:44.239
I think you could say it was invented.

1220
01:05:44.320 --> 01:05:47.440
Yeah, what what ice cream flavors would you put on

1221
01:05:47.480 --> 01:05:48.320
a banana split?

1222
01:05:48.440 --> 01:05:50.159
Well, I think a banana split has got to be

1223
01:05:50.159 --> 01:05:54.079
fairly traditional, so I would say it's chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry.

1224
01:05:55.360 --> 01:05:57.440
Can You can have whatever flavors you want.

1225
01:05:57.519 --> 01:05:59.400
Oh, I just think you gotta go with tradition in

1226
01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:02.159
this case. Although I personally am not a huge fan

1227
01:06:02.199 --> 01:06:05.039
of banana splits, to be honest, Like, I like bananas

1228
01:06:05.159 --> 01:06:08.159
and I like ice cream, but together, I don't really

1229
01:06:08.199 --> 01:06:09.039
I don't really get it.

1230
01:06:09.320 --> 01:06:11.239
I don't think I've had one since I was a

1231
01:06:11.559 --> 01:06:14.760
very little kid, because I'm usually like a one scoop

1232
01:06:14.840 --> 01:06:17.800
person with that budget, and I don't really want three scoops.

1233
01:06:17.840 --> 01:06:19.000
But now I kind of want one.

1234
01:06:19.079 --> 01:06:22.159
The banana slip split is more of a visual. It's

1235
01:06:22.199 --> 01:06:24.079
more of like an artwork because you know, you got

1236
01:06:24.119 --> 01:06:26.199
the banana split on both sides, and you got three

1237
01:06:26.199 --> 01:06:29.079
scoops ice cream, and then you got the whipped cream

1238
01:06:29.199 --> 01:06:31.800
and the cherry. It's more of like an artwork than

1239
01:06:31.840 --> 01:06:34.159
it is. You know, I just don't think the banana

1240
01:06:34.199 --> 01:06:35.800
and the ice cream work well together.

1241
01:06:35.840 --> 01:06:38.320
Okay, we need a boat, right. I think I would

1242
01:06:38.320 --> 01:06:43.239
do like butter pecan, like some sort of like chocolate,

1243
01:06:43.559 --> 01:06:46.280
maybe chocolate cherry. And these aren't going to go together

1244
01:06:46.320 --> 01:06:46.920
at all, are they?

1245
01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:47.079
Oh?

1246
01:06:47.079 --> 01:06:51.119
And I love like when it has coke, like coconut

1247
01:06:51.159 --> 01:06:51.599
ice cream.

1248
01:06:52.000 --> 01:06:53.360
Oh, coconut ice cream.

1249
01:06:53.559 --> 01:06:54.840
Yeah, coconut ice cream.

1250
01:06:54.880 --> 01:06:56.079
That doesn't sound good to me at all.

1251
01:06:55.920 --> 01:06:57.840
Don't think so that probably wouldn't be good. Yeah, maybe

1252
01:06:57.880 --> 01:07:00.760
you're right, Maybe you should just go vanilla. I don't know.

1253
01:07:00.920 --> 01:07:03.800
Let us know what you think if your job was

1254
01:07:04.039 --> 01:07:07.400
ice cream taste tester. Do you think eventually you'd be like, oh,

1255
01:07:07.519 --> 01:07:10.159
I gotta go to work, I gotta eat more ice

1256
01:07:10.199 --> 01:07:12.039
cream to day, or do you think you'd be I

1257
01:07:12.039 --> 01:07:14.400
think I would love my job, really, I think it

1258
01:07:14.440 --> 01:07:16.920
would be great. You're much you're a much bigger ice

1259
01:07:16.960 --> 01:07:17.960
cream fan than I am.

1260
01:07:18.159 --> 01:07:21.159
And if you're an ice cream taster, I'm guessing the job.

1261
01:07:21.400 --> 01:07:24.000
You know, you're just taking small tastes, so you're not

1262
01:07:24.159 --> 01:07:27.559
like just you know, mowing down spoonful after a spoonful

1263
01:07:27.599 --> 01:07:30.039
of ice cream. So I think it would be a.

1264
01:07:30.159 --> 01:07:33.400
Dream if you're tasting the ice cream, not all of

1265
01:07:33.440 --> 01:07:36.159
the batches are going to taste amazing, that's true. Some

1266
01:07:36.199 --> 01:07:37.400
of them are going to taste bad.

1267
01:07:37.599 --> 01:07:39.320
Yeah, and I have to taste some that are not

1268
01:07:39.400 --> 01:07:40.159
flavors that I.

1269
01:07:40.239 --> 01:07:42.519
Like either, and then you might have to taste like

1270
01:07:42.599 --> 01:07:46.480
the spinach ice cream or rethink this whole lustard ice cream.

1271
01:07:46.719 --> 01:07:49.360
Wasn't that a thing? Like? Yeah, there was like a

1272
01:07:49.400 --> 01:07:50.920
gray poop one ice cream or.

1273
01:07:50.920 --> 01:07:54.480
Something garlic ice cream before, but not grape No, it

1274
01:07:54.519 --> 01:07:56.760
doesn't neither. Those so good to me. Yeah, you're making

1275
01:07:56.760 --> 01:07:58.920
me rethink this whole ice cream taster career.

1276
01:07:59.239 --> 01:08:02.599
But then maybe it would be fun to be like.

1277
01:08:03.039 --> 01:08:05.400
You're sending really mixed messages here. I don't know if

1278
01:08:05.400 --> 01:08:06.920
I should try to get a job as an ice

1279
01:08:06.920 --> 01:08:07.960
cream taster or not.

1280
01:08:08.559 --> 01:08:10.079
I think you would be really good at it.

1281
01:08:10.239 --> 01:08:13.239
Okay, I was going to say that I'm a little

1282
01:08:13.239 --> 01:08:16.600
disappointed that there is not a Rolling Rock beer as

1283
01:08:16.720 --> 01:08:18.560
part of my snack today.

1284
01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:21.399
Yeah, well, I know you one, I know you a

1285
01:08:21.439 --> 01:08:22.039
lot of things.

1286
01:08:22.039 --> 01:08:24.079
Man. I used to Rolling Rock used to be like

1287
01:08:24.119 --> 01:08:24.520
my go to.

1288
01:08:24.640 --> 01:08:25.800
Yeah, we used to drink it all the time.

1289
01:08:25.920 --> 01:08:28.279
Loved Rolling Rock and yeah La trobe it was it

1290
01:08:28.279 --> 01:08:31.399
was funny because you just always like Brood in Latrobe, Pennsylvania.

1291
01:08:31.439 --> 01:08:33.039
It just became synonymous.

1292
01:08:33.199 --> 01:08:36.359
It sounds like a really cool place. And I know

1293
01:08:36.399 --> 01:08:38.840
that Andrew really loved it there and they loved Andrew

1294
01:08:38.880 --> 01:08:42.239
there too. Yeah. Well, thank you all so much for listening.

1295
01:08:42.359 --> 01:08:44.760
I bet you were all very happy this morning. There

1296
01:08:44.800 --> 01:08:47.560
there was not a part four to the Minetta's Brothers,

1297
01:08:48.560 --> 01:08:53.000
like everyone happy people. Yeah, those three parts they just

1298
01:08:53.399 --> 01:08:56.159
even when I was posting like the pictures, I was like, dang,

1299
01:08:56.199 --> 01:08:58.359
this was that was that was that was. That was

1300
01:08:58.359 --> 01:09:01.239
a lot of the Menenda's brothers. So anyway, well next Monday,

1301
01:09:01.279 --> 01:09:03.760
we'll have another case for you, so please come back.

1302
01:09:03.800 --> 01:09:04.920
I can't wait to hear what it is.

1303
01:09:05.239 --> 01:09:06.800
Yeah, I don't know just yet either.

1304
01:09:08.159 --> 01:09:11.199
Hopefully we'll figure it out by that. Please rate, review,

1305
01:09:11.359 --> 01:09:15.600
follow and subscribe. Find us on social media or YouTube

1306
01:09:15.800 --> 01:09:19.279
or TikTok, or send us an email at Lovemarykill at

1307
01:09:19.359 --> 01:09:21.600
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1308
01:09:20.880 --> 01:09:24.760
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1309
01:09:24.880 --> 01:09:28.600
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1310
01:09:28.760 --> 01:09:32.560
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1311
01:09:32.720 --> 01:09:36.520
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1312
01:09:36.520 --> 01:10:15.439
and don't kill your husband. The companion with the