Erika and BJ Sifrit and the murders of Geney Crutchley and Joshua Ford - Part 2

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Hi. I am Rich and I'm
Tina. If there's one thing we've learned

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in over twenty years of marriage,
some days you'll feel like killing your husband,

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and some days you'll feel like killing
your wife. Welcome to love,

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Mary Kill, Hey Tina, Hey
Rich, welcome back. Thanks, it's

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been it's been a it's been a
whole four minutes. Yeah, how are

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you. I'm good. I did
a little yoga. The chairs that we

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sit in are like super uncomfortable.
Yeah, horrible, So my back was

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hurting. Good idea, good thinking, Yeah. Working on my son's salutation.

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Nice, I love son salutation.
It's my favorite. Do you want

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to break into a couple of right
now? Yeah? Maybe after? Okay,

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all right, So if you hear
any noise in the background, it

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might be your daughter singing in the
bathroom as she's taking a shower. And

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I wouldn't that you would be singing
in the shower when you knew your parents

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were recording a podcast. Unless you
want, unless you wanted to, right,

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just don't talk about me. Well, if you're singing, you must

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want everyone to hear. Do you
want to come in and sing? So

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I just wanted to mention last night, I'm I'm feeling pretty good. But

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our cat, like he just sometimes
just needs to sleep on me. Do

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you notice that? Not really,
I'm usually asleep. Not really, you

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are a master, Like if he
comes into our bed, you're just you

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just literally roll over us. When
we first got them, they used to

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love to sleep on my legs for
some reason. I would be in bed

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sleeping and they would just lay down
on my legs, on between your legs,

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yeah, And I would push them
off and they would come right back

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on. But somehow I've broken them
of that habit, but they maybe they

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found a more comfortable spot. And
it's so pathetic when he has this little

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mousey he carries around and a lot
of times in the morning I wake up

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the mouse is like on our bedroom
floor, and it just makes me sad

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that he wanted someone to play with
him in the middle of the night.

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Sometimes he comes in and he's like
wow, and usually I usually I don't

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play with him. Very demanding if
anyone has any suggestions out there for cat

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toys that your cats love, or
more importantly, like self motivated cat toys,

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because we just don't have enough time
to play with our cats. Clover

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the girl cat, you know she's
not as cudly as the boy cat is.

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And the other night we played with
her for it must have been an

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hour. It took shifts. Each
of us would play with her for ten

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minutes, and then we would trade
off because we were curious, like how

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long can't she go? And she
went a whole hour? Yeah, yeah,

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and she still would have gone longer. I'm sure. Absolutely, she's

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insane. So as always, being
that this is my episode, it's my

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responsibility to bring a snack. But
I did not plan very well. So

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I brought you in part one,
I got the pies, but part two

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I didn't really have anything planned.
Part one was really I mean that that

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was quite a nice snack. Yeah. So I went into our pantry,

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though, and I found something I
think you'll I love the pantry dive snack.

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Really happy about here. So I
brought Chex Mix. So here's the

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exciting thing though about Chex Mix.
The bagel chip is bad. Yes,

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it's in all caps on the cover. Bagel chip is back. I didn't

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know it was missing. I didn't
either, But I went and did a

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little research on this and I found
that they got rid of it like ten

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years ago. Ten years ago.
Yeah, and there was an outcry.

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Apparently there have been like petitions and
people on social media going crazy for it.

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And we are never without Chex Mix
in our pantry because and our son

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isn't here, but it's one of
his favorite snacks. Our daughter likes it

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a lot. Everyone loves Chex Mix. I don't love it. I mean

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I sometimes I, oh, did
you bring an apple? I brought an

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apple to season? Wait, honey, christoph are weird though sometimes it tastes

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fermented. Yeah, it kind of
does, like if they're I don't know

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how long they sit there before they
pick them. But yeah, but I

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just I do love a crisp cold
honey crisp. Yeah. Well, when

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we take a break for a snack, I have a special treat for you

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too, because when I was doing
my research about the bagel chips being back

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in the Chex Mix, I found
that when they brought it back, they

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actually had Sir mix a lot.
Do you remember Sir mix a lot?

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Vaguely? He did a song for
checks mix. So we're gonna take a

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break, play the song and we'll
be right back. I like my snacks

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and I cannot lie. Look,
that's one thing I just lied. It's

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a bag of snack, that basic
tape and it seems like such your waist

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because you're hungry and it ain't nothing
a snack but a mixing stuff. Chex

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mix ain't no comparing. I'm but
I'm down with sharing. I don't pay.

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You can find me clunching, and
it's to your munching. My homeboys

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tried to warn me because that crunch
you got me so hungry. Oh something's

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missing and you're wondering where it's been. What exkills me? Exkills me?

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You know I need a mixed to
move me now. Checks mix is your

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sass. I'm telling you I ain't
don't ask. We did enough a hit

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and the membership got to bring back
the bagel chip. The black bagel is

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back. Oh my god, Becky, look at those bagel chips. They

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look so round and tasty. Bagel
is back. The bagel is back.

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The bagel is back, Tina,
that's amazing. How do you come up

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with these wonderful nuggets? My takeaway
from that is everyone has a price,

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you know, not people have great
integrity. Yeah, I don't know what,

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sir. Mix a lot's career has
looked like in the past several years.

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But yeah, his price may be
lower than a lot of people.

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It was good, It was a
good little great. Yeah, it's awesome.

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Well, thank you for bringing in
that to us. The checks mixed,

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little stale, that's okay, person, is it around when the Yeah,

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I wait to can't like to cantle
lot of our snacks into the oxocontainers

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because I'm a ghirdo but psycho,
So yeah, they do get a little

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stale if you don't get in there. I bet the dots pretzels are getting

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stale too, because I don't think
you've been snacking as much. All right,

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So here we are Part two.
Horrible story, Yeah, horrible story.

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And you know what part two means. I think sometimes our synops ci

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or is that a word spiss are
a little lengthy. So I'm going to

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try to make it brief. Okay, if you haven't listened to part one,

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go back and listen to part one. So we have Bjay and Erica.

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They're about twenty four, married,
very young. They married after knowing

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each other for three weeks. And
it is two thousand and two Memorial Day

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weekend, and they're kind of like
this. Bonnie and Clyde couple, and

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they like to carry guns. They
take their snakes everywhere. Erica is very

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tan, very tam. She likes
expensive things. They just burgle. They

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like to burglarize, oh you places. She likes Hooter's memorabilia, a Hooter's

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obsession. Who doesn't. She has
a lot of anxiety. She's on xanax.

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She likes to Snorter's Annex. They
like to drink. They like to

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have a good time. She's obsessed
with her husband. Doesn't like to be

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apart from him. He went a
wall in the Navy. He was a

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Navy seal. He out of one
hundred and sixty people in his class,

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only eighteen became Navy seals. On
the Memorial Day weekend, they murdered poor

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Joshua Ford and Jeanie Crutchley, who
were from Fairfax, Virginia. They were

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vacationing when we left off their adrenaline
junkies. They had dismembered the poor couple

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and put them in a grocery store. Band used to work for a grocery

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store. And I can't attest to
those fins are always full of lots of

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weird things and pretty gross. Oh, they were like Erica would be like,

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my purse is missing, and that's
what happened. Like she accused Genie,

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Genie and Joshua of stealing her purse, and then she she even called

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nine one one, but nine one
one didn't really respond. And where we

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left off was Melissa and Todd were
like another couple that not really a couple,

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but two people that were in their
penthouse and they escaped. Yeah,

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and they didn't really know that they
were escaping like this murderous couple. They

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were just like, this just doesn't
feel cool and rody here. Yeah,

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they knew there were guns, and
they knew there was a bathroom door with

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bullet holes in it, and they
knew that, Yeah, there was something

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off about this couple. And they
luckily got out of there. But it

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was interesting because it was almost the
same scenario where Erica was like, my

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purse is missing, did you guys
take it? And they went to have

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sex. They were like, oh, we need to go have sex,

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and then that's when they escaped.
Ye, And you said they traveled with

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like three guns. Yeah, Erica
kept a gun on her at all times,

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bj kept a gun on him at
all times, and they had won

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in the console of their jeep that
they kept, and they were all loaded

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all the time, and their snakes, Hitler and HIV were with them.

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Yeah, which is so weird.
Yeah, crazy, And they had crocodiles

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too, but they didn't I don't
think they brought them on vacation, but

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they brought the snakes. Yeah,
they're quite a couple. Yeah they're horrible.

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Well, good synopsis. Very well, we should have on our previous

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episode given a content warning, and
maybe we'll go back and slip one in

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there. But is this episode equally
disturbing? Not equally disturbing? This part

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will be a little bit more about
the investigation and the aftermath, but certainly

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still a little disturbing. All right, Well, great synopsis. So,

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yeah, when we left off,
Melissa and Todd had just basically escaped and

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gotten out. So while Erica and
bj were back living it up in Ocean

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City. The police first got on
the case of Joshua and Janie's disappearance on

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Tuesday, after Janie's colleg had reported
her missing. After making a few calls,

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investigators learned that the couple had come
to Ocean City and they had been

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staying at the Atlantis condominium. They
drove out there and they found Genie's Accura

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all alone in the parking lot,
looking like like it hadn't been moved in

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days. So this was after Memorial
Day weekend was over, so I imagine

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it was probably really busy during the
weekend, and then by Tuesday or Wednesday

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it was you know, people had
gone back to work, so the parking

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lot was mostly empty except for her
car just sitting there. Well, I

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don't know if we said this,
but bj and Erico were on vacation there

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for a week. Yeah, they
were staying there for the whole week,

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right. Police got the condo manager
to let them into Joshua and Jeanie's room.

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All their stuff was still there.
It looked like they had just gone

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out and never come back, which
is exactly what happened. They found a

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receipt for groceries which was dated Saturday
the twenty fifth. Looking in the fridge

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and the cupboards, they found all
the groceries that were listed on the receipt

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unopened, which told them that the
couple probably disappeared on that Saturday evening.

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They found another receipt for the Green
Turtle Sports bar, where Joshua and Jeanie

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had watched the Celtics game. Investigators
stopped by, and the night manager remembered

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the couple being there by themselves having
a good time. They also found some

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surveillance footage that confirmed this. Police
sealed off Joshua and Jeanie's condo as a

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potential crime scene, and they impounded
Jeanie's car, but otherwise they didn't really

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have a clue. It seemed like
the couple had vanished into thin air.

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On Thursday the thirtieth, the morning
after the crazy night with Todd and Melissa,

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Bjay worked on fixing the bathroom door
while Erica worked on her tan.

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Erica loved her tan. The day
proceeded with some more drinking, some more

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smoking of Joshua's pot, and some
napping, followed by a trip to the

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Green Turtle sports Bar. On the
way in, they smiled when they saw

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a missing person's flyer for Joshua and
Jeanie. They smile, Yeah, they

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smiled. I think there was actually
a surveillance footage that showed Erica and Bja

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walking into the sports bar and seeing
the flyer on the wall. So they

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got those missing posters out pretty quick. Well, this was Thursday, right,

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They were reported missing by I think
on Tuesday. Okay, so yeah,

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maybe within a day or so.
Erica and Bja stayed at the Green

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Turtle for the evening, drinking,
listening to music, and Erica ducking into

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the bathroom to snort some xanax occasionally. When they left close to midnight,

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Erica passed out in the passenger seat
while Bja drove, but instead of driving

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back to the condo, he drove
to Hooters, which was closed by this

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point, and he backed the jeep
up to the gift shop. He picked

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the lock and then woke Erica up, saying, hey, we're at Hooters.

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Grab your ski mask. Erica and
Bja started loading up the jeep with

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stuff they grabbed from the gift shop. What they didn't know, though,

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was that BJ had tripped a silent
alarm. The police showed up and they

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caught them in the act. BJ, who was pretty drunk, thought that

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he could talk his way out of
it. He asked the cop, can't

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we just put the stuff back?
Sorry, Bj, That's not how this

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thing works. The police cuffed both
Erica and BJ, and they found a

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gun and a knife on BJ's person, and a gun and a knife on

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Erica as well. Erica started having
a panic attack and she told one of

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the cops she needed her medication that
was in her purse in the car.

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The officers started digging through her purse
and what do you know, he finds

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Joshua and Genie's IDs. Oh boy. They also found another loaded gun.

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In the console of the jeep.
They found BJ's lock picking supplies, some

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zip tie handcuffs, some gloves,
and the keys to Joshua and Genie's condo.

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So imagine you're the cop here,
it must have been like, holy

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shit, these people are yeah nuts, I know exactly, especially like the

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handcuff thing blew my mind. Like
they had these zip Ti handcuffs in their

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car too, Like what were they? I guess, I don't know zip

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Ti handcuffs are They're just you know, they're just they're just like plastic handcuffs

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that you can so they look like
handcuffs. They don't look just like zip

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ties. Yeah, they're like in
a circle like and you can just pull

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them tight. But yeah, like, why why would they have this stuff

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in the car and ski masks and
gloves and guns and yeah, I guess

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so and and yeah, and the
police you know, they saw they found

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Joshua and Jeanie's IDs and this had
been you know, all over It's you

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know, a small police department in
Ocean City, I'm sure, so they

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were very aware that this couple had
been missing, so definitely eye opening.

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They immediately called in for reinforcements.
Can you talk a second about this side

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side note, but xanax and what
the effect of snorting xanax does. Well,

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I am not a medical doctor,
but I know that xanax is about

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like helping you calm down and like
making you relaxed more and kind of you

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know, calming down your your brain
like it's going too fast or if you're

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panicking or something like that. So
I imagine snorting it just makes that happen

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faster, just gets into your bloodstream
faster. So it's not making you high

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or disoriented, I don't think so. I think it's kind of the opposite

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of that in some ways. Yeah, Okay, quick Google told me that

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people may not as xanax affects the
mind. It can cause a temporary loss

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of memory, feelings of hostility and
irritability, and disturbing or vivid dreams,

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and you should not use xanax and
alcohol at the same time, because it

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could result in coma or death in
some instances. I know that her account,

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Erica's account is the only one that
we have, so the xanax could

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have affected her memory and her retelling
of the story. Yeah, that's a

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really good point. And she was
taking it so often too. I'm not

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sure what the effect is of,
you know, taking it just all the

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time, which it seems like she
was doing. So the officer called for

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reinforcements right away after they found the
IDs in Erica's purse. One question,

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Erica would just say she had no
idea who Joshua Ford and Genie Crutchley were.

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If their ideas were in her purse, it must have been because BJ

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found them somewhere. Oh okay.
The officer in charge immediately sent a team

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over to the Rainbow, where Erica
and BJ were staying. They thought it

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was possible that Joshua and Jeanie were
being held captive. They were able to

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enter the premises without a search warrant
because of that possibility. In a quick

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search, they didn't find any living
people there, but they did find two

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spent bullets in the kitchenet area that
appeared to have bits of flesh and blood

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on them, and they found photos
of Joshua and Genie with Erica and BJ

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that gave them probable cause to get
a search warrant to do a more thorough

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search and bring a forensics team in. Once the crime scene technicians got access

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to the suite, it was pretty
easy to understand at a basic level,

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at least what took place. Even
though BJ had done his best to clean

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up the bathroom, there were still
signs of blood everywhere. It had seeped

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into the corners by the baseboards and
in the grout between floor tiles, out

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the vanity, and there was a
channel of blood still tacky and wet along

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the floorboard. The stopper in the
sink was bloody, and there was a

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piece of scalp with some hair attached
stuck in the drain. So it was

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obvious that the bathroom had been the
scene of a horrific murder. Now they

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needed to figure out exactly what happened, who did what, and what happened

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to the bodies, And really the
only way to get those answers seemed to

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be to get Erica and or BJ
to talk. All right, let's take

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a quick break. We'll be right
back. Military training teaches that when you're

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captured by the enemy, you just
provide your name, rank, and serial

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number. Spoiler alert. We had
to positive record that because I had no

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idea what you were talking about.
I thought that was pretty common though.

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No, no, no, you're
right, but I in that context,

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I just, yeah, it took
you by surprise me on this spot,

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but things for letting me. True
to his training, BJ wouldn't say a

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thing after his arrest. All he
would say was, if you want to

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know what happened to them, you
need to ask my wife, and then

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he asked for his lawyer. We
wouldn't get to hear his version of events

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until his trial ten months later.
Erica was another story. She immediately started

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angling to cut a deal. She
told detectives that she wanted the burglary charges

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dropped in exchange for information about where
Joshua and Jeanie's bodies were. Detectives were

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floored that she seemed so concerned with
the burglary charges when murder charges seemed a

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little more serious and a little more
likely. But I think it's possible that

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she just assumed that BJ would be
charged with the murders and not her,

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So she might have thought that she
didn't have to worry about that. But

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really, the more the investigation evolved, the more certain the police were that

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Erica was a willing participant in the
murders. Okay, remind me, did

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she shot off some shots too?
Didn't she? No? I don't think

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so. But again, we don't
know exactly what happened that night. But

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what I believe happened is that BJ
did the shooting. She did stab Genie

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with a knife, we do know
that, but we don't know if Jeanie

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was dead already when she did that
or not. And BJ did the dismembering.

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Yes. During Erica's early interrogations,
she seemed more concerned with whether detectives

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liked her and thought she was pretty
than she was with the trouble that she

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was in. Oh boy. She
kept asking them, do you like me?

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Am I pretty? Am I a
bad person? Yeah? You are?

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You're horrible? Yeah? And you're
ugly. Even if you're not ugly,

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you're ugly. She's ugly inside for
sure. Once they knew that that

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was Erica's top concern, they were
able to use that to gradually get more

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and more information from her about what
happened. She told them that bj had

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dismembered Joshua and Jeanie's bodies. They
did agree to drop the burglary charges if

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she could lead them to the bodies. She took them around to some dumpsters,

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but they weren't the right ones.
She said she was pretty out of

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it at the time that they got
rid of the body parts, so she

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wasn't exactly sure, but the police
thought she was being cage Okay, so

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by this time is it Friday?
I think it was around Yeah. They

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arrested them, I think on Thursday
night, and the murders happened on Saturday

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before, so the dumpsters would have
been emptied. Yeah, yep. When

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Erica's mom and dad found out about
the arrest, they immediately booked a private

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plane to get to Ocean City,
and they hired a top notch have a

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plane. They were pretty wealthy.
They hired a top notch Maryland lawyer,

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a guy named Archie Tuminelli. His
real name was I think it was arch

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Angelo, but they called him Archie. Mitch and Cookie were sure that whatever

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had happened must have been all Bjay's
fault and that their little girl Erica must

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have been under his control. Arkie's
top priority was to get the death penalty

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taken off the table. He was
able to cut a deal where there would

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be no death penalty if Erica would
lead them to the real locate where they

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had put the body parts. She
did lead them to the actual dumpsters this

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time, she was sure of it, but they had been emptied. By

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this time, investigators were able to
pinpoint which landfill the dumpsters had been taken

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to and which section of the landfill
had been used the day that they were

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emptied. Fifty five law enforcement officers
were sent out to the landfill for the

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search. Those guys, I know, it was hot and humid, so

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it was miserable, smelly work.
They did eventually find some of the body

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parts. They found Joshua's torso,
both his arms, and one of Janie's

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legs. What did you say.
The bodies were put in bins. They

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were wrapped in garbage bags, and
I think I think bj may have had

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some other bags or something that he
put them in, and he put them

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in two separate dumpsters, so he
kind of kept them separate a little bit.

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I know. A year into doing
the podcast, I should be less

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shocked, But the dismembering of a
body, the murdering of a body is

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horrible, but the membering of the
body, it's just the ultimate act of

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horror and disrespect. Disrespect. Yeah, yeah, it's just disgusting. It

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is completely disgusting. And I think
Bjay, you know, with his training

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as a medic, I think he
was a little bit used to kind of

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gore and stuff like that because he
was he worked on an EMT squad in

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00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:25.359
New York City and they also dissected
cadavers and stuff like that. But I

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just can't even imagine how you could
do something like that. It's just it's

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00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:33.119
just horrible. I think about this
a lot because I'm kind of shocked how

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00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:37.519
frequently that happens in these cases.
And I always wonder, like, how

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how you move on if I wouldn't
be able to do it. Obviously,

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I think you have to be a
psychopath to be able to dismember a body.

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But does it you know, does
it give you nightmares? Does it

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stick with you? I wouldn't think
you'd ever be able to forget the feeling

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00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:56.720
and the sounds and the Yeah,
I think for most most people who have

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you know, announce of empathy in
them, it would be impossible to again,

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obviously, this guy's a psychopath.
Yeah, So, sadly they did

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not find the rest of their bodies. All they found was Joshua's torso,

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his arms, and one of Jeanie's
legs. The rest of the body parts

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were never found. Archie's next priority
was to cut a deal for Erica where

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she would get immunity for testifying against
BJ. Erica wanted to paint a picture

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where BJ was the instigator of everything. She was under his control and lived

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in fear of him, so she
went along with things. But you know,

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she just wanted to paint this picture
of her as being completely innocent and

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just being afraid of BJ. So
she investigators were skeptical of this because in

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many ways they actually had more evidence
against Erica than they had against BJ.

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It was her gun that fired the
bullets that they had found. The ideas

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and the bullet casings were in her
purse. It was her knife that had

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blood on it. Also, all
the pictures that Erica had taken after the

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murders showed a smiling, happy couple, and in some of those pictures she

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was wearing a necklace that appeared to
have Joshua's dragon ring on it. Also

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by that crazy yeah. So Also, by this time, Melissa Ceiling had

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gotten back from her vacation in Hawaii
and she heard about the arrest of BJ

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and Erica. She must have been
so freaked out, can you imagine?

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So she came forward to tell her
story of her experience with the couple just

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four days after the murders. It
was almost the exact same scenario, with

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Erica freaking out about her lost purse, which made the police think that maybe

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this was some type of deadly game
that BJ and Erica liked to play with

349
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people. Ultimately, though, prosecutors
did agree to give Erica immunity in exchange

350
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for her testimony against BJ. But
but there was one very important condition.

351
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She had to pass a lie detector
test. As we know, lie detector

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tests aren't admissible in court, but
at least if she passed a polygraph that

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showed she was a an active participant
in the murders, then the prosecutors would

354
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feel better about giving her a deal
and they would have a more solid case

355
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against BJ. I would like to
someday do a deep dive on light detector

356
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:15.160
test. It's fascinating to me.
Yeah, me too. I was just

357
00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:21.039
thinking about this yesterday, wondering if
AI technology, if there's going to be

358
00:25:21.079 --> 00:25:26.319
a way to enhance a light detector
test and make them more reliable. Probably.

359
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:29.279
Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah. So they agreed to

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this deal, but she would still
face charges for illegally disposing of bodies and

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illegal possession of a firearm, but
the sentence for those would likely be time

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served and she could actually be free
very soon. What I don't like it,

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Well, it didn't turn out this
way. So the day the polygraph

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00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:51.440
it finally came, Arkie coached his
client to be completely honest and to be

365
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sure that there wasn't anything that she
was hiding. If things didn't turn out

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well in the polygraph, there would
be no chance at any kind of a

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deal. At that point, Erica
assured him she was not hiding anything.

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But we know that Erica has anxiety
because she pops the xanax like their you

369
00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:11.440
know, grapes. Right, it
just seems likely that she would fail the

370
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light detect her test just because of
her general anxiety. Yeah. I even

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think I don't know how. Again, I don't know enough about polygraph tests

372
00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:18.960
to know, but I think you
know, they try to put you at

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ease and they try to like ask
you some questions beforehand, But in any

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case, it's gonna end up being
irrelevant. In this case because when they

375
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do a polygraph, they first do
a pre polygraph interview with the subject.

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The purpose of that pre polygraph interview
is to put someone who is innocent at

377
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:38.720
ease, or in the case of
someone who is guilty, it's really meant

378
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to heighten their anxiety. During the
pre interview, Erica rambles a lot.

379
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She talked about all the places she
and BJ had burglarized in the last couple

380
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:52.839
of years. She also talked about
the night of the killings, how Joshua

381
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and Jeanie were locked in the bathroom
and BJ asked her what they should do

382
00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:00.759
now. Erica says that she told
Bjay just fuck do it. The polygraphic

383
00:27:00.759 --> 00:27:03.960
examiner asked what she meant by that, and she said, I meant just

384
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:07.839
kill them. They asked her multiple
times to be sure that they heard what

385
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:11.519
they thought they had heard. Every
time she answered the same, just kill

386
00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:15.680
them. I know he wanted to. She gave them more details about what

387
00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:21.759
happened basically what I walked through earlier, including the fact that she had stabbed

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00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:25.720
Genie, not knowing if she was
already dead or not. She also told

389
00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:29.559
them about a snake tattoo that she
had gotten two or three days after the

390
00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:33.480
killings. She had chosen the location
on the side of her lower torso because

391
00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:37.720
it was the same place she had
cut Genie, so it was kind of

392
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:41.160
like a souvenir to her. Yeah, so all of this stuff. It's

393
00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:45.559
not clear why Erica shared so much
in her pre interview. I think she

394
00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:51.200
may have been under the impression that
anything she shared would be kept confidential,

395
00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:56.119
and this was true of the actual
polygraph test, but not the pre polygraph

396
00:27:56.200 --> 00:28:00.559
interview. In the end, the
pre interview, which is something that usually

397
00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:04.519
takes twenty to thirty minutes, lasted
four hours and investigators didn't even do the

398
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:10.200
polygraph. So based on everything that
Erica had admitted to in the pre interview,

399
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:14.319
the deal was off and they would
charge Erica with first degree murdered.

400
00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:18.559
Oh wow. Yeah, I think
Erica was her own worst enemy in many

401
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:23.920
ways during the investigation and interrogation and
all that. Well, yes, that's

402
00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:27.279
great. Yeah, I mean it
worked out the way it should have worked

403
00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:33.920
out. So Bjay's trial was first
starting on April first, two thousand and

404
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:38.000
three. His conviction was by no
means a slam dunk. He was smart

405
00:28:38.039 --> 00:28:41.039
after his arrest, right, he
lawyered up right away. He never said

406
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:45.000
a word to the police. And
remember it was Erica's gun that had fired

407
00:28:45.039 --> 00:28:48.960
the bullets that were recovered. It
was her knife that had the blood on

408
00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:52.319
it, and the ideas of the
victims were in her purse. So he

409
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:55.240
didn't take a light detector test.
Nope, he didn't take a life so

410
00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:59.200
random to me, like sometimes a
light detector test is it administered and sometimes

411
00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:00.640
it's not. Well, I don't
don't know if they wanted him to,

412
00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:03.880
but he you know, you don't
have to, So if they did,

413
00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:07.119
I'm sure he would have declined it, or his lawyer would have declined it.

414
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:11.039
Right. Bj took the stand in
his own defense so we would finally

415
00:29:11.319 --> 00:29:15.640
get to hear his story of what
happened in his account. After the couples

416
00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:21.640
left the Secrets nightclub, Erica,
Joshua, and Jeanie went back to Joshua

417
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:26.359
and Jeanie's condo to get their swimsuits
and the marijuana BJ said that he would

418
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:29.640
just meet them back at the penthouse. He says that he got back to

419
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:32.839
the Rainbow, but then realized he
didn't have the keys to the apartment,

420
00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:37.400
and so he went and laid down
in the jeep and passed out. He

421
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:41.559
was awoken by Erica pounding frantically on
the jeep's window, saying, we have

422
00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:45.279
to leave. They went up to
the penthouse suite together, and there BJ

423
00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:48.880
found Joshua and Jeanie on the bathroom
floor. So in his story, it

424
00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:52.400
was all Erica, she shot and
killed them both. He wasn't even there.

425
00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:57.039
He did admit that he made the
difficult decision to help his wife cover

426
00:29:57.160 --> 00:30:02.400
up the murders by dismembering the body
and taking them to the dumpsters, but

427
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:06.160
he was just doing that to protect
his wife. Were his fingerprints on the

428
00:30:06.200 --> 00:30:11.480
gun? I do not know that
it's a good question, but remember it

429
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:15.720
was like five days afterwards that they
were arrested, so yeah, I don't

430
00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:21.839
know if they fingerprinted the guns.
Even without that though, there were some

431
00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:26.359
kind of major problems with BJ's story. First of all, BJ was an

432
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:30.119
expert lock picker. When he found
out that he didn't have the keys to

433
00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:33.920
the condo. Couldn't he have just
picked the lock? And if he didn't

434
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:36.680
have the condo keys, did he
still have the keys to the jeep?

435
00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:41.079
Like wouldn't those keys probably have been
together and there was no way that the

436
00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:44.799
jeep was left unlocked because they had
a gun in there and other items of

437
00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:51.000
value. Second, Melissa Ceiling testified
about her experience with BJ and Erica four

438
00:30:51.079 --> 00:30:55.359
days after the murders. Based on
her account, it was clear that Erica

439
00:30:55.400 --> 00:30:59.880
and BJ were playing some twisted game
together. Also, she testified about b

440
00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:03.039
saying that he would do the same
to her and Todd as he did to

441
00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:06.720
those other people, and how he
was ridding the world of bad people.

442
00:31:07.160 --> 00:31:11.720
Third, and maybe most significantly,
someone kicked the bathroom door in with a

443
00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:15.480
great deal of force, and it
sure wasn't Erica, who was tiny For

444
00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:19.680
some reason, though the prosecution never
brought this up as a counter to Bjay's

445
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:26.119
story. The jury deliberated for fourteen
hours before coming back with a verdict that,

446
00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:30.240
frankly, didn't make a lot of
sense. BJ was found guilty of

447
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:36.000
second degree murder for Jeanie's death,
but he was found not guilty of Joshua's

448
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:41.880
death. The jury apparently believed that
Erica killed Joshua, then ran downstairs to

449
00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:45.599
get BJ and the jeep while Jeanie
was cowering in fear in the bathroom,

450
00:31:45.640 --> 00:31:49.400
and then BJ came up and killed
Jeanie. It didn't make any sense,

451
00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:55.440
but that was the verdict. He
was also convicted of being an accessory after

452
00:31:55.480 --> 00:32:00.759
the fact for his role in dismembering
and discarding the bodies. So the sentencing

453
00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:06.559
for Bjay was actually delayed until after
Erica's trial would take place. Her trial

454
00:32:06.759 --> 00:32:09.920
was set to begin on June third, two thousand and three. On May

455
00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:14.400
twenty second, less than two weeks
before the trial was set to begin,

456
00:32:14.839 --> 00:32:17.920
the Baltimore Sun ran an article that
you would have to see to believe.

457
00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:22.119
It was a front page feature story
that took up two and a half full

458
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:25.440
pages of the newspaper. Like and
you know, think about a newspaper,

459
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:30.119
right, it's a really big piece
of newsprint. This article was like two

460
00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:35.640
and a half pages and the headline
was life Interrupted. The headline on the

461
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:40.000
continuation page read lives on hold for
only child, and it featured this big

462
00:32:40.039 --> 00:32:45.480
picture of Erica's parents, Mitch and
Cookie, looking sad and distraught and all

463
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:49.720
these pictures of Erica playing basketball and
another picture of her from high school,

464
00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:52.880
and it was all about how hard
this whole ordeal had been for her parents.

465
00:32:53.359 --> 00:32:57.839
Well, I'm sure it was.
But Mitch must have had some friends

466
00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:00.759
in the newspaper business. Yeah exactly. I think, you know, Mitch

467
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:04.200
was a fairly wealthy business man.
I think he knew a lot of people.

468
00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:07.079
It also, it's disgusting. I
would imagine the readers would be disgusted

469
00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:12.559
by that. Yeah exactly. They
interviewed like a number of Erica's high school

470
00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:15.480
friends and teachers, and they painted
this picture of this, you know,

471
00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:19.720
all American girl who just got mixed
up with the wrong guy. There was

472
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:22.359
one small picture of the victims on
the third page of the article at the

473
00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:27.079
bottom. So yeah, I'm not
sure like who at the Baltimore Sun thought

474
00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:30.440
it was a good idea, but
I thought I was just like blown away.

475
00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:35.400
I actually had to go get a
subscription to a newspaper service to go

476
00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:38.119
look up back issues. I'll post
a picture of the article itself. But

477
00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:40.920
it was just sort of like,
yeah, it just kind of blew my

478
00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:45.480
mind when I think you said this
in the previous episode. But the victims

479
00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:50.119
have been lost. Yeah. Yeah, there's very little information about the victims

480
00:33:50.200 --> 00:33:54.160
in this case altogether, which is
really unfortunate and sad that. Yeah,

481
00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:59.200
they really weren't remembered at all.
I think the media has done a better

482
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:02.960
job recently focusing more on victims unless
on the perpetrators of the crime. Yeah,

483
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:07.679
I think you're right. When this
article came out, the prosecutors were

484
00:34:07.719 --> 00:34:10.760
worried that this would make it hard
to find an impartial jury, and so

485
00:34:10.840 --> 00:34:15.199
they actually made a motion for a
change of venue. That motion was granted,

486
00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:20.039
and so the trial took place in
Frederick, Maryland, about fifty miles

487
00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:22.360
from Baltimore and one hundred and eighty
miles from the scene of the crime.

488
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:28.920
The state's theory in this case was
that Erica and BJ liked to play a

489
00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:31.760
sick game with couples that they met, accusing them of stealing their stuff.

490
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:37.000
They got off on it together,
and it was the loss of Erica's purse

491
00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:40.239
that would set the game into motion. Did any other couples come forward,

492
00:34:40.840 --> 00:34:45.000
No, No other couples came forward, So yeah, I'm not sure if

493
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:47.599
this was something that they just started
doing in this trip to Ocean City or

494
00:34:47.639 --> 00:34:51.199
if maybe they had done it before, but no one else came forward.

495
00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:55.320
They tried to head off any notion
that Erica was controlled or living in fear

496
00:34:55.360 --> 00:35:00.079
of bj by showing photos of the
couple together after the murders, smiling,

497
00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:06.079
playing mini golf, eating crab legs, Erica getting her tattoo. In all

498
00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:08.920
the photos, which were taken with
Erica's camera to document their week together in

499
00:35:08.920 --> 00:35:13.400
a scrap book, the couple was
smiling and looking like they were having the

500
00:35:13.400 --> 00:35:19.639
time of their life. The prosecution
called the bouncer at Secrets nightclub who testified

501
00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:22.639
about Erica waving her gun around when
he tried to get her to leave.

502
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:27.800
This again showed that Erica was not
the meek wife being controlled by or in

503
00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:31.679
fear of her husband. The judge
had ruled that Erica's statements in the pre

504
00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:37.280
polygraph interview where she said she told
Bjay just fucking do it and that she

505
00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:42.039
meant just kill them, were inadmissible. That was fortunate for Erica, but

506
00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:45.679
it also meant that her attorneys didn't
want her to testify in her own defense

507
00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:51.039
because if she did, it was
likely that those statements would end up getting

508
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:54.559
admitted into evidence, and so she
wasn't able to tell her story or to

509
00:35:54.679 --> 00:36:00.519
explain to the jury the reason why
she didn't take the stand. On June

510
00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:05.719
tenth, the jury came back with
their verdict guilty of second degree murder in

511
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:10.119
the case of Genie and first degree
murder in the case of Joshua. Okay,

512
00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:14.639
yeah, so that seemed a little
more of a reasonable verdict to me

513
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:19.519
than Bjay's verdict. What do you
think, I don't know what to think.

514
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:22.440
There's we just don't know what happened, So that's really frustrating. But

515
00:36:23.320 --> 00:36:27.280
what are there I guess I'm curious
to hear what their sentences are. Yeah,

516
00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:29.000
we'll talk about that in just a
minute. But I think, you

517
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:30.719
know, one of the things that
I think is most interesting and that we'll

518
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:36.480
never know for sure, is really
in this case, how much Erica is

519
00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:40.159
responsible and how much Bja is responsible. It seems like they fed off each

520
00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:44.320
other. Right. It seems like
each of them on their own, you

521
00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:46.679
know, probably wouldn't have done something
like this, but together they seem to

522
00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:51.639
like they seem to get a thrill
out of it. Do you think they

523
00:36:51.639 --> 00:36:54.519
were trying to impress each other?
Maybe maybe I don't know. I'm not

524
00:36:54.559 --> 00:36:59.440
sure what drives couples like that to
do the things that they do, but

525
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:01.960
it just seems like, yeah,
it was like a thrill for them.

526
00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:07.719
There are a lot of murderous couples
out there. It's very bizarre. Here's

527
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:12.079
what Scott Bernal, who is he
was the lead detective on the case.

528
00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:15.239
Here's what he had to say.
Now, what I was saying all along

529
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:21.960
is we may not be able to
positively prove who killed who, but I

530
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:27.360
had a pretty good theory and it
was corroborating. It just couldn't be proven.

531
00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:32.000
But they were both as culpable as
each other. One hand is as

532
00:37:32.039 --> 00:37:36.840
dirty as the other. One's a
principle, the other is a principal.

533
00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:40.119
I think is a pretty good point. And here's actually another comment that he

534
00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:49.119
made about how Erica's defense tried to
portray her. In Erica's case, they

535
00:37:49.159 --> 00:37:58.719
portrayed Erica as this frail young girl
that couldn't hurt a fly, And you

536
00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:01.760
look over and you actually, if
you didn't know her, or you had

537
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:06.159
no idea why you were there,
and she was amongst the crowd, you

538
00:38:06.199 --> 00:38:10.159
certainly wouldn't pick her up as the
first one that that's the devian. That's

539
00:38:10.199 --> 00:38:15.400
the animal, that's the murderer.
That's how they wanted to portray her.

540
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:20.719
It was based on what I had
and the state's attorney had, and our

541
00:38:20.840 --> 00:38:24.119
unit had to show them differently,
and that was our job, and we

542
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:29.400
did it very well. I believe
she had two at least two lawyers with

543
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:35.639
a bunch of them behind the scenes
working to make sure that the jury heard

544
00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:37.679
that BJ did all the killings,
and Erica was just there. She was

545
00:38:37.719 --> 00:38:42.400
the one afraid for her life if
she didn't follow the orders of BJ.

546
00:38:42.679 --> 00:38:45.039
But what she wasn't thinking was she's
as every part of these murders as he

547
00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:50.360
was. You know, if she'd
have told BJ when he said, well,

548
00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:52.119
they're naked, they don't have the
ring, what do you want me

549
00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:54.800
to do now, she could have
said let him go, and they might

550
00:38:54.840 --> 00:39:00.039
have I don't know. It's interesting
because she obviously she came from a family

551
00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:05.000
of wealth, so she was able
to pay for a better defense. Yeah,

552
00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:07.559
and she ended up with a worse
outcome than well, we'll talk about

553
00:39:07.559 --> 00:39:09.559
the sentencing, which I guess is
the ultimate outcome. But yeah, she

554
00:39:09.679 --> 00:39:13.960
was found guilty of both murders,
and at the end of the day BJ

555
00:39:14.159 --> 00:39:19.960
was just found guilty of one and
second degree BJ's sentencing hearing took place on

556
00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:23.960
July seventh. The judge was constrained
by sentencing guidelines, but he made it

557
00:39:23.960 --> 00:39:28.599
clear that he was not happy about
that. Here's what he said, quote,

558
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:31.440
this was nothing more than a thrill
killing that you and your wife committed.

559
00:39:31.960 --> 00:39:35.840
This is one of the few instances
in my twenty years in which I

560
00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:38.760
have disagreed with the jury's verdict in
a case. Then he looked at BJ

561
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:44.000
and he said, you're a butcher. A butcher, you cut these people

562
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:46.679
up for no reason. If not
for the masterful job by your defense team,

563
00:39:46.760 --> 00:39:52.840
you would probably be facing a life
sentence. Can't disague them. Absolutely

564
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:54.239
should have been. It would be
a hard thing about being a judge.

565
00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:58.639
And like if you you know,
you don't have control over sentencing and you

566
00:39:58.760 --> 00:40:01.960
know that someone deserves but sometimes you
do. Yeah, very strange, Yeah

567
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:06.480
it is, but in this case
he was constrained. He gave BJ the

568
00:40:06.559 --> 00:40:09.159
max that he could, which was
thirty eight years, which meant that BJ

569
00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:15.199
would be eligible for parole in nineteen
years. The judge said that if he

570
00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:19.480
meaning the judge, was still alive
when BJ's parole hearing rolled around that he

571
00:40:19.559 --> 00:40:22.239
wanted to be notified so that he
could show up and argue against his parole.

572
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:27.119
O nice, that makes me.
Yeah. A month later, Erica

573
00:40:27.159 --> 00:40:30.400
had her sentencing hearing. Thanks to
the deal that her lawyer initially made in

574
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:35.599
exchange for her help in locating the
bodies, the death sentence was off the

575
00:40:35.639 --> 00:40:39.440
table, as was life without parole, but the judge gave her life plus

576
00:40:39.480 --> 00:40:44.719
twenty years. Oh okay, so
still eligible for parole at some point.

577
00:40:44.760 --> 00:40:49.440
But yeah, her sentence was life. But also bullshit that his charge was

578
00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:52.400
his sentence was so light. Yeah, I mean, it really makes no

579
00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:54.760
sense at all if you look at
the two sentences compared to each other.

580
00:40:54.840 --> 00:41:00.000
I mean, if anything, they
were either equally responsible or he was maybe

581
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:02.679
a little bit more responsible than she
was. But they both deserve to be

582
00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:10.440
put away forever. Absolutely. I
wonder why they weren't tried together. I

583
00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:14.559
think because of the fact it's a
good question. I don't know for sure,

584
00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:16.159
but I think because of the fact
that they were both pointing the finger

585
00:41:16.199 --> 00:41:20.079
at each other, you know that
maybe it didn't make sense to try them

586
00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:24.000
together. But again, the whole
legal world of how they make these decisions

587
00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:30.320
and how they're going to try somebody
and sentencing and all that stuff. Is,

588
00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:32.079
Yeah, you need to go get
your law degree, as we've talked

589
00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:37.440
about one hundred percent. Someone recently, a friend recently gave me a gift

590
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:42.800
subscription to Masterclass. It was just
like a free two week trial you get

591
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:45.639
a law degree. It was one
of the things there was like, I

592
00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:50.280
really need to not get a law
degree, but just listen to some lectures

593
00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:52.840
on law. And it expired and
I didn't get a chance to use it,

594
00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:57.440
but I really would be curious to
learn more about the law. It

595
00:41:57.480 --> 00:42:00.559
would definitely be helpful because I would
still get used all the time about all

596
00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:06.119
the different like what's the difference between
an indictment and arranment? And we talk

597
00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:08.280
about this all the time amongst ourselves. Yeah, we should probably just take

598
00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:15.679
a month off and study up,
all right. So, both Erica and

599
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:21.159
BJ filed multiple appeals after their sentencing
on a number of different grounds, but

600
00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:25.360
they all their appeals were denied fortunately, So I'm assuming they have they had

601
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:29.599
different judges. I think they.
I don't know for sure, but I

602
00:42:29.599 --> 00:42:31.559
think they must have. Because her
trial was moved to a different location.

603
00:42:32.079 --> 00:42:35.760
So yeah, I'm sure they had
different judges, but I don't know how

604
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:38.920
much leeway the judge in her trial
had with her sentencing either, right,

605
00:42:38.920 --> 00:42:44.480
because she was convicted of first degree
murder, and I'm assuming that that means

606
00:42:44.519 --> 00:42:49.920
mandatory life, but I don't know
for sure. BJ and Erica actually remained

607
00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:53.360
married for another seven years after their
convictions. I guess neither one got around

608
00:42:53.360 --> 00:42:58.760
to filing for divorce around until twenty
ten. Did they have communication? Not

609
00:42:58.840 --> 00:43:00.639
that I know of, I don't, don't, I don't. Usually in

610
00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:04.320
that case, the judge is like, no communication. Yeah, I would

611
00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:07.239
hope so, But yeah, BJ
finally filed for divorce in twenty ten and

612
00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:13.159
that was granted. BJ actually had
his first parole hearing about a year ago

613
00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:16.360
in April of twenty twenty two,
and parole was denied, but he is

614
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:22.159
eligible for another hearing in twenty twenty
four. Either way, even if he

615
00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:25.159
doesn't get parole, he is actually
due to be released in twenty thirty,

616
00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:30.599
although it could actually be sooner than
that with good behavior. I just I

617
00:43:30.599 --> 00:43:36.400
don't think murder people should get time
off for good behavior. No, I

618
00:43:36.440 --> 00:43:38.920
know, taking someone's life, you
shouldn't have a chance of living your own

619
00:43:39.119 --> 00:43:43.400
No, but even if even if
he doesn't get good behavior twenty thirty,

620
00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:47.360
that means he'll be fifty two,
I think in twenty thirty. So getting

621
00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:52.880
out of jail at fifty two,
that's just not cool. It's not justice

622
00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:59.199
in this case. Erica's first opportunity
for parole will be next year, in

623
00:43:59.239 --> 00:44:01.559
twenty twenty four. That it's ridiculous. Yeah. In the book that I

624
00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:06.199
read for this case, which was
Cruel Death by m. William Phelps,

625
00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:10.719
he says that he's gotten many letters
from Erica's fellow inmates, claiming that even

626
00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:15.320
ten years into her stay, she
would regularly brag about the killings and smile

627
00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:20.320
when talking about it, like it
was her proudest moment. Disgusting, She

628
00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:25.639
is so disgusting. The officers who
investigated the case have speculated that bj and

629
00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:30.920
Erica may have killed other people,
but they've been unable to find any definitive

630
00:44:30.920 --> 00:44:35.320
connection between them and any other cases. Yeah, they actually wondered too,

631
00:44:35.360 --> 00:44:38.800
Like in their trip to South America, they thought that maybe they did some

632
00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:45.159
killing down there as well, but
they weren't able to get really enough information

633
00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:49.280
from the authorities down there to you
know, come up with any you know,

634
00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:52.239
really viable theories of what happened.
So were there missing people in South

635
00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:57.639
America. I think they just speculated
that that maybe they went down there to

636
00:44:58.119 --> 00:45:00.840
you know, for a thrill,
and maybe that was part of their you

637
00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:04.039
know, part of their thing that
would get them a thrill. You know.

638
00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:08.400
That's yeah, yeah, the whole
thing. It's just horrible. And

639
00:45:08.440 --> 00:45:13.920
that is all I've got in the
case of bj and Erica Siffrett and the

640
00:45:14.000 --> 00:45:17.400
killing of Joshua Ford and Genie Crutchley, And again, you know, I

641
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:20.920
know, we didn't have much information
about the victims here. I feel really

642
00:45:20.920 --> 00:45:22.760
bad about that. I wish that
I had more. But at the end

643
00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:28.119
of the day, Joshua and Genie
seemed like really good people. They seemed

644
00:45:28.159 --> 00:45:30.280
like they were very much in love
with each other and they were just out

645
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:34.199
trying to have some fun and met
up with the wrong couple, and it

646
00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:37.480
really is a tragic end for them. Well rest in peace, Joshua and

647
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:40.199
Genie. That's that's horrible, And
I hate that these two people have a

648
00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:44.199
chance at freedom. Oh God,
I know, I hope they never do

649
00:45:44.440 --> 00:45:47.239
what happened in Memory Lane, that
was the name of the scrapbook store,

650
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:50.519
right, it is the name of
the store. I am just going to

651
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:53.000
go out on a limb and say
it's probably close. But I know that

652
00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:57.960
I do know that Erica's mom and
dad kept it running for some time,

653
00:45:58.079 --> 00:46:00.559
like I don't know if they thought
that she was going to get out of

654
00:46:00.639 --> 00:46:04.639
jail and would be back to running
it again, but I'm sure it went

655
00:46:04.639 --> 00:46:08.679
out of business probably soon after.
Do they see her. Do they take

656
00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:13.039
private jets to Yes, they do. In fact, I don't know if

657
00:46:13.039 --> 00:46:16.719
they take private jets. I think
they drive, but at least Erica's dad

658
00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:21.159
And this is at the time that
William Phelps wrote the book, which is

659
00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:23.719
at least ten years ago now,
but he would go down every weekend for

660
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:31.039
visiting hours and a lifestyle he never
thought, no, he would have Yeah,

661
00:46:31.119 --> 00:46:34.239
no, I'm sure, And I
think to this, you know,

662
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:38.199
to this day, I think her
parents think that she is innocent and was

663
00:46:38.360 --> 00:46:44.920
just you know, controlled by her
husband and really was not responsible for what

664
00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:47.199
happened. Well, I think that
might be true to a tiny extent,

665
00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:52.719
that she might not have killed she
hadn't met b J and she was willing

666
00:46:52.719 --> 00:46:54.159
to do anything to keep him.
It sounds like, right, well,

667
00:46:54.159 --> 00:46:57.840
that's a horrible story, but you
did a nice job. Do you want

668
00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:00.280
to talk about William Phelps for a
second. Well, you know, William

669
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:05.480
Phelps is kind of a big He's
a big name in the true crime community.

670
00:47:05.920 --> 00:47:07.239
He's written quite a few books.
I've read a lot of books,

671
00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:10.360
a few of them. You know, I don't want to say anything bad

672
00:47:10.360 --> 00:47:15.719
about William Phelps because he is big. In this particular case, his book

673
00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:21.679
is really the only definitive kind of
guide to what actually happened. I mean,

674
00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:23.440
there's a lot of newspaper articles and
things like that, but nobody else

675
00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:27.679
that I've found has written a book
on it. There was like a Dateline.

676
00:47:27.719 --> 00:47:30.480
It wasn't even Dateline, it was
like some offshoot of Dateline episode.

677
00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:36.159
There was a Forensic Files. But
really without William Phelps, there wouldn't this

678
00:47:36.199 --> 00:47:39.199
story wouldn't be, you know,
out there. I have listened to William

679
00:47:39.239 --> 00:47:44.440
phelps podcast Paper Ghost. He has
other podcasts as well. He does a

680
00:47:44.480 --> 00:47:46.559
pretty good job, and he has
a good advocate for victims. And if

681
00:47:46.599 --> 00:47:51.719
you're writing five to seven books a
year, they're not all going to be

682
00:47:51.960 --> 00:47:53.760
Nobel Prize winners. Well, I
didn't really say anything negative about his book.

683
00:47:53.800 --> 00:47:58.079
But sometimes the books I've read of
his, they're a little it feels

684
00:47:58.159 --> 00:48:00.880
like they're a little rushed something.
Yeah, I have read his books before

685
00:48:00.960 --> 00:48:02.000
Cheo, and they definitely seem like
the rush. But I think he does

686
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:05.079
a fairly good job. Yeah,
and really in this case, I was

687
00:48:05.079 --> 00:48:07.360
actually surprised I hadn't heard more about
this case and that you would think that

688
00:48:07.400 --> 00:48:10.159
this would be a case that there
would be a bunch of books on and

689
00:48:10.199 --> 00:48:14.639
a bunch of movies and things like
that. But I really did not know

690
00:48:14.719 --> 00:48:21.320
anything about it before. It's so
so weird. I never understand what gets

691
00:48:21.320 --> 00:48:23.199
people's attention and what doesn't. Well, this one, you would think,

692
00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:28.199
like all American you know, young
kids who had everything going in life and

693
00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:32.800
then decided to become you know,
these horrible, vicious killers. Well I

694
00:48:32.840 --> 00:48:37.000
hate I'm not complimenting them, but
they're not bad looking people. And he

695
00:48:37.320 --> 00:48:42.400
especially, he probably would be called
a psychopath, but he's a good looking

696
00:48:42.440 --> 00:48:47.960
guy, so I'm imagining he has
lots of prison letter tell Yeah. Probably

697
00:48:49.519 --> 00:48:59.079
all right, Well, well done
as usual, thank you. We thought

698
00:48:59.119 --> 00:49:02.039
it might be fun for us to
talk about horror movies for a few minutes.

699
00:49:02.239 --> 00:49:06.679
It is the season, the season, so and we were both going

700
00:49:06.760 --> 00:49:09.880
to give just some movies that we
liked. You are a horror MOVI.

701
00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:13.320
You're a big fan of horror movie. I've always been a big fan of

702
00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:16.199
horror movies. And I'm a scaredy
pants and you like a good horror film.

703
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:19.239
I do, I do, for
sure, But I have a lot

704
00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:22.480
of rules, a lot of rules. Don't scare you during the horror film

705
00:49:22.599 --> 00:49:28.840
or where there's like a forty eight
to seventy two hour window where you are

706
00:49:29.320 --> 00:49:31.320
not allowed to scare me at all, even a little bit. I'm a

707
00:49:31.320 --> 00:49:35.679
really jumpy person, just normally.
Yeah. A lot of times around the

708
00:49:35.679 --> 00:49:37.679
house, I have my air pods
in, I'm cleaning or doing whatever.

709
00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:42.119
I scare you unintentionally at least once
every day or two. You do.

710
00:49:42.360 --> 00:49:45.199
Yeah, And I don't know why
I have such a fear factor, but

711
00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:49.239
I'm just a jumpy person. Yeah. So, do you want to give

712
00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:52.800
some of your favorite horror films?
Yes, I've got a top five plus

713
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:57.199
an honorable mention. Excited to hear. Most of mine are pretty much classics.

714
00:49:57.239 --> 00:49:59.880
I'm definitely more of a classic kind
of guy. You are so psych

715
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:04.280
Oh, I think it's like early
sixties, maybe nineteen sixty or sixty one.

716
00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:07.719
I remember the first time I saw
that movie. It just freaked me

717
00:50:07.719 --> 00:50:09.039
out. And I know it's old
and it's kind of a little bit dated,

718
00:50:09.079 --> 00:50:13.000
but man, I always go back
to that first time I saw it,

719
00:50:13.039 --> 00:50:15.079
like just I turned down the TV
at like midnight or something and it

720
00:50:15.159 --> 00:50:16.800
was on and I was a kid, and I was like, oh my

721
00:50:16.840 --> 00:50:21.360
god, that movie just freaked me
the hell out. Fun fact, I've

722
00:50:21.400 --> 00:50:24.199
never seen Psycho and refuse to.
Yeah, I don't blame you. I

723
00:50:24.239 --> 00:50:30.239
have. I'm just afraid too,
because I would conjure it every time I

724
00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:32.320
was in the shower. Yeah.
Yeah, I thought the shower that we

725
00:50:32.360 --> 00:50:37.360
have now actually talked about a couple
of weeks ago. There's no shower curtains.

726
00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:39.519
Yeah, it'd be really hard to
wall, like a big tile wall.

727
00:50:39.639 --> 00:50:44.920
Yeah. And my other classic from
kind of the sixties is The Night

728
00:50:44.960 --> 00:50:49.239
of the Living Dead. Yeah that
movie. Yeah, it just again if

729
00:50:49.239 --> 00:50:52.239
you watch it now, it's kind
of cheesy. The special effects are horrible,

730
00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:54.719
but there are enough moments in that
movie that are just, yeah,

731
00:50:54.800 --> 00:51:00.880
freak you out, especially if you're
young and impressionable. And then you want

732
00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:01.719
me to keep going with mine,
I keep going, all right. So

733
00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:09.360
Rosemary's Baby another classic, Yeah yeah, personal personal connection to that movie that

734
00:51:09.440 --> 00:51:16.079
we will not tell you about Alien, which is kind of a horror movie,

735
00:51:16.159 --> 00:51:19.960
kind of a sci fi movie,
but to me, it's just amazing.

736
00:51:20.599 --> 00:51:23.679
It's just such a great movie.
And then Silence of the Lambs is

737
00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:28.400
my fifth one that might be a
perfect movie, that is very close to

738
00:51:28.400 --> 00:51:30.880
such a perfect movie. Yeah,
it's incredible. And then my honorable mention

739
00:51:31.159 --> 00:51:35.239
is Midsummer So it's a little bit
oh yeah, you know, less of

740
00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:38.480
a classic, a newer, newer
film, but very like unsettling, creepy,

741
00:51:38.920 --> 00:51:43.119
just and again it's it's a beautiful
film, beautiful film. It's got

742
00:51:43.159 --> 00:51:47.440
like just this moodentous. It's a
beautiful, beautiful The sin is here myself,

743
00:51:47.599 --> 00:51:51.599
I know. Yeah, to trust
me, I know that I am

744
00:51:52.599 --> 00:51:54.239
horrible and cringe. All right,
what do you got? Okay? And

745
00:51:54.239 --> 00:51:59.119
this is just me throwing some together. I'm more of a suspense type of

746
00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:00.519
person. I love you know.
I thought you were more of a slasher

747
00:52:00.559 --> 00:52:05.880
type person. I thought because you
like like Halloween and stuff like that,

748
00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:10.360
don't you just like Halleen More for
the tradition. We don't watch it every

749
00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:15.360
year, but we've watched it many
times. Okay, I have a movie

750
00:52:15.400 --> 00:52:22.039
called Alone that we saw a few
years ago. Really just a suspenseful It's

751
00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:23.880
just a really good movie. I
don't know what year. It was,

752
00:52:23.920 --> 00:52:28.840
like a low budget film with like
little known. I'm not sure. I

753
00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:30.519
think we were just looking for something
to watch one night with our kids.

754
00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:35.639
And I really enjoyed that more than
I thought. Mine are more recent.

755
00:52:35.719 --> 00:52:38.880
I like things that are a little
more recent. Barbarian, which we saw

756
00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:51.000
last year, Long Mama, I
thought that was a really really good one.

757
00:52:51.800 --> 00:52:53.639
This is okay, this is taking
it back. This is the single

758
00:52:55.159 --> 00:53:00.400
scene from a movie that sticks with
me. Sleep Away Camp. It's old,

759
00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:04.079
old, but there is a scene
with a curling iron. If you've

760
00:53:04.079 --> 00:53:07.559
ever seen it, it's so disturbing. It's funny about some scenes like that

761
00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:10.159
just stick with you and you can't
can't get them out of your head.

762
00:53:10.239 --> 00:53:14.639
Yeah, oh, I do have
another old the Omen Oh yeah, I

763
00:53:14.639 --> 00:53:17.599
mean it's almost on my list.
Yeah, I mean it's you know,

764
00:53:17.960 --> 00:53:22.760
as a kid, I remember watching
it and just being horrified, and I

765
00:53:22.840 --> 00:53:25.719
think my mom like she was scared
of those things, so a lot of

766
00:53:25.760 --> 00:53:28.199
him. She would be like,
oh, you can't watch that. And

767
00:53:28.199 --> 00:53:30.280
if your mom I can't watch that, totally watch it. I've got to

768
00:53:30.320 --> 00:53:35.320
watch it. And it's it's horrifying
and like the six sixty six in his

769
00:53:35.400 --> 00:53:37.880
scalp. Never forget that. So
I think that's yeah, some of the

770
00:53:38.079 --> 00:53:40.760
some of the ways that people died
in that film too, were just so

771
00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:46.280
like crazy and creepy and yeah,
probably within the last ten years you and

772
00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:50.239
I have watched it. And one
of the things I remember is that maye

773
00:53:50.280 --> 00:53:53.480
be so slow in the beginning.
It took like at least an hour for

774
00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:58.159
anything to happen, So be patient. But that's a really good one that

775
00:53:58.519 --> 00:54:00.079
like you just don't look at a
little kid saying with dark ware. If

776
00:54:00.119 --> 00:54:04.840
you see that movie and another more
recent movie than I don't know if it's

777
00:54:04.840 --> 00:54:07.559
a favorite, but if you haven't
seen Hereditary, I think it's a really

778
00:54:07.599 --> 00:54:10.960
good Yeah right, yeah, really
good. So we do on a we

779
00:54:12.079 --> 00:54:15.920
love all like a rainy, spooky
night to just hang out and watch a

780
00:54:15.920 --> 00:54:20.760
scary movie. Good unless so right
now, I mean, by the time

781
00:54:20.800 --> 00:54:22.880
you listen to this, it'll probably
be mid October. But it's October first

782
00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:29.719
and it's eighty five here, not
feel like October first, No, it

783
00:54:29.800 --> 00:54:31.239
does it, but the leaves are
starting to turn it. It is quite

784
00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:37.239
beautiful. Yeah, October is domestic
violence Awareness month, so we will be

785
00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:43.679
contributing our ad revenue and our Patreon
revenue to a domestic violence cause. I

786
00:54:43.719 --> 00:54:45.599
don't know if we have decided yet. Probably by the time you're hearting this,

787
00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:50.800
we have decided. So we are
very excited to be able to donate

788
00:54:50.800 --> 00:54:53.840
to worthy causes. Absolutely, and
we really owe that to all of you,

789
00:54:54.039 --> 00:54:58.599
our listeners, So thanks so much
for listening. Please follow us on

790
00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:00.519
social media. We're not going to
li did, but just or send us

791
00:55:00.519 --> 00:55:05.159
an email at Lovemary Kill at gmail
dot com. We'd love to hear from

792
00:55:05.199 --> 00:55:08.239
you, and if you would consider
supporting us on Patreon, Patreon dot com,

793
00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:14.199
slash Love Mary Kill five dollars a
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794
00:55:14.400 --> 00:55:19.760
early access ad free and adfree until
next time. Don't kill your husband,

795
00:55:19.960 --> 00:56:08.320
Don't kill your wife.