Erin Patterson, the mushroom murderer

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina and I'm Rich. If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's. That some days you'll feel like killing your wife. And some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary kill. Hey, Rich, your arms must be tired. My arms are so tired. You literally just flew in from New York City. I did. I got home a half hour ago, and it was a little bit of a bumpy trip, not just turbulence wise. My flight got canceled last night and I spent an extra night in New York City that I didn't plan to, so it was a little bit.

0:47 But you're here now, and you're ready to podcast. I sure am, and I'm excited to hear about this case. My mate Dave has been asking us to do this case for like over a year now, I think a year. Yeah, not, as I said my mate, because. I did notice in Australia, we are going back to Australia. I feel like, if you are in Australia, though, you know everything about this case, and you might not really learn anything new from our episode. I don't think the case has caught on as much in the United States, so This is an Australian case that I'm telling more to our United States listeners. But before we get started, I have a joke for you. Why did the mushroom get invited to all the parties? Why? Because he was a fun guy to be with.

1:30 That's a good one. Another thing I wanted to mention before we get into the case is thank you to the ten four hundred and sixty two people who messaged us that Michelle and Jason Young's dog, mister Garrison, is named for the teacher in South Ark. That really made us laugh because normally when we're podcasting, we have learned that we should google something rather than say, oh, gosh, I don't know, but I felt like it's a dog's name, Like, you know, how are we gonna know what this is about? Yeah, apparently everyone in the world watches something, everyone except that. Well you, I know that you used to watch it a little bit. Really, I mean I've watched I'm sure I've watched an episode or two here or there, but I never really watched it.

2:15 That was really funny. Thank you to everyone that reached out to us. And we'll try not to make that mistake again. But I did bring you a snack today. Oh good, are you ready? I am ready. I'm really hungry, So I hope it's substantial. I mean, you can eat as much of it as you want. You know that today's case is about Aaron Patterson, a mushroom murderer. You might want to call her. So I made you. I didn't make you beef Wellington is that's what she made her guests. I made you a mushroom tart, and I promised that these that was not You were not excited at all about that. I'm not exciting. I think it's pretty good. I had a piece earlier. How do you feel about mushrooms? From one to ten mushrooms, I'm I'm sort of neutral on I don't like them. I don't think they really add a lot to a lot of things. But I don't dislike them either. They can kind of they can be on a pizza or whatever. It doesn't bother me.

3:07 But I wouldn't really choose to put them on a pizza either. I love mushrooms, and I have consumed dramatically less mushrooms since you and I have been together, and our kids aren't really big mushroom fans, and mushrooms are really polarizing. I think mushrooms and coconut and raisins foods like that. Some people just you either love them or you hate them. Yeah. The recipe is from a website called The Little Sunny Kitchen and it's just called Mushroom Tart, and the recipe will be in the show notes. I'll have you try it right now. Okay, you didn't even need a whole piece of the mushroom tart. You didn't like it.

3:47 It wasn't bad. It was not bad. I didn't love it, but I didn't hate it. It's kind of how I feel about mushrooms in general, fairly neutral. I thought it tasted like a pizza with a lot of mushrooms on it and not tomato sauce. I just took a piece of puff pastry, rolled it out, put some smoked Gouda on it, and then I sauteed a bunch of baby Bella mushrooms with some butter and some thyme, And. Yeah, I like the gudha flavor. That was good. Yeah, smoked Gouda is one of my favorite cheeses. Yeah. What would you rate the mushroom tart? I'm going to give it a six out of ten. Okay, that's not too bad. I would give it an eight out of ten. On July twenty ninth, twenty twenty three, Aaron Patterson, forty eight, a separated mother of two, prepared a special luncheon. It was a cold, gloomy, quiet Saturday afternoon and lean Gotha a rural town nestled among the rolling hills of Victoria, Australia. Lean Gotha is a small town located in South Gippsland, about one hundred and thirty five kilometers roughly eighty four miles southeast of Melbourne, with a population of about six thousand. It's a close knit, farming oriented community known for its rolling hills, dairy farms and quiet, picturesque countryside. Was the kind of day that begs for her comfort, food and familiar company. Inside Aaron Patterson's kitchen, something delicious and indulgent was coming together that she'd toiled over all morning. Beef Wellington tender filet wrapped in golden puff pastry, layered with mushroom paste and brushed with egg washed to a glossy finish. But Aaron put

5:19 her own spin on the recipe by making individual portions instead of the traditional loaf. As she put the final touches on the gourmet meal she'd been planning for weeks, her guests arrived. The aroma from the kitchen wafted through the house, creating a homey, welcoming feeling. As the four guests sat down at the table, Aaron poured wine. The guests were her in laws, Don and Gail Patterson, both seventy, Gail's sister, Heather Wilkinson sixty six, and Heather's husband Ian sixty eight. One guest whose absence was notable was Simon Patterson, Aaron's estranged husband. She was visibly irked that he'd abruptly canceled the night before, after she'd carefully planned the meal for two weeks. Aaron set aside a plate for Simon, and Casey changed his mind and decided to attend. She was hoping he would make an appearance. It was a family lunch, meant to bring people back together, but also so Aaron could share some unfortunate medical news and get their support. Ian, a pastor at a local church, said a prayer before the meal. The wine flowed, The conversation stayed polite, friendly, slightly strained, perhaps, but everyone seemed to enjoy the meal works cut cleanly through the tender pastry, releasing steam, and the earthy aroma of mushrooms and beef.

6:35 None of the guests at the table could have known this carefully planned meal was not meant for their sustenance and enjoyment, but was a calculated act of revenge to make them suffer, to pay for the slights and pain that Aaron Patterson had felt for months, even years. By midnight, all four guests were in their bathrooms, wrenching up the lunch gravely ill. Within a week, three were dead. Only Ian Wilkinson survived barely, and Aaron, who claimed she too had eaten the meal, would soon be at the center of a shocking and deeply unsettling mystery that would captivate Australia and the rest of the world. One haunting question was asked over and over. Was it a tragic accident or something far more sinister? This lunch occurred almost exactly two years ago, and we should mention that in Australia, like the end of July is kind of the peak of their winter. It's the peak of our summer, it's the peak of their winter. So having like a nice, cozy, home cooked meal was probably a really nice way to spend your Saturday afternoon.

7:39 Yeah, it makes sense. It's kind of a heavy lunch though, right, but it's that typical of Australia as well. Do you think it's funny that you asked that? Because I had the same question. I reached out to one of our Aussy listeners, Sarah, and asked her that, and she said she thought because they were a church going family that it wouldn't be that odd. Okay, they might all get together on Saturday afternoon because they'd be busy Sunday at church. Gotcha. Late on the night before the luncheon, Simon and Aaron Patterson had the following text exchange. Sorry, I feel too uncomfortable about coming to a lunch with you, mom, Dad, Heather and Ian tomorrow, but I'm happy to talk to you about your health and implications of that at another time. If you'd like to discuss it on the phone, just let me know. That's really disappointing. I spend hours this week preparing lunch for tomorrow, which has been exhausting in light of the issues I'm facing. I spent a small fortune on beef fil a to make beef Wellington because I wanted it to be a special meal, as I may not be able to host a lunch like this again for some time.

8:34 It's important to me that you are all there tomorrow and that I can have the conversation that I need to have. I hope that you change your mind. Your parents, Heather and Ian are coming at twelve thirty. I hope to see you there. Simon never responded to that message. Ann did not attend the lunch, lucky for him. On the day of the lunch, and the four guests arrived together. Gail brought an orange cake for dessert. Aaron and Simon's daughter son, aged nine and fourteen, were not at home during the meal. They'd gone to McDonald's for lunch and then to see a movie. The Wilkinsons had never visited Aaron's new house before, so she gave them a tour of her home and garden. She served them each an individual beef wellington with fresh foraged mushrooms. Before eating, they said a prayer led by Ian. In addition to the beef wellington's for each guest, Aaron made mashed potatoes, gravy, and green beads. Served on a gray plate. Her own beef Wellington was served on a smaller orange plate. Later, Heather dwelt on this and asked Simon is erin short of crockery. He admitted that she didn't have a large complete set. Her dishes were piecemeal. Gill had half of her beef Wellington, while don ate his entire portion, as well as the other half of Gail's. Ian and Heather ate their entire portion. After the indulgent meal, everyone was full but nibbled on the orange cake Gale had baked and a fruit platter Aaron put out. After lunch, Aaron broached the difficult conversation that had brought everyone together. She

10:05 told her guests that she had been diagnosed with ovarian cancer and needed guidance on how to talk to her and Simon's children about her life threatening illness. The group, visibly concerned, encouraged her to be honest with the kids, and Ian led them in a prayer for her. But in reality, Aaron did not have cancer. She fabricated the diagnosis as a way to draw her in laws to her home, and it also explained why her children weren't present at the meal. As the lunch was winding down. Aaron's son and his friend returned from the movies. Simon had picked them up, but chose not to come inside, a detail that, while subtle, reflected the tension between him and Aaron at the time. His parents and his aunt and uncle are there, and he chose to not even come in and say a quick hello. He and his daughter returned to his house. The guest departed around two pm, as Ian had a three pm appointment with a parishioner.

10:58 Within twelve hours of leaving Aaron's home, the four guests all became violently ill, with vomiting and diarrhea. Don vomited more than thirty times before he called his son. Simon was shocked at the state of his parents when he arrived and immediately called an ambulance. Then he paid a visit to his aunt and uncle, finding them also incredibly sick. He drove them to the hospital himself because an ambulance would have taken too long. Doctors first believed that the four victims had food poisoning from the beef. None of them had remembered the finely chopped mushrooms in the beef Wellington, but the next day the doctors realized that they'd fallen critically ill due to poisonous mushrooms. They were all in or near liver failure. Gail, Don, Heather and Ian were all placed in medically induced comas, but three of them died within a week of the poisoning due to multiple organ failure, a brutal, long suffering death. Don was given a liver transplant in hopes of improving his condition, but he continued to deteriorate after the surgery. He passed away on August fifth. Gale and Heather were both deemed too ill to undergo a liver transplant and died on August fourth.

12:07 Ian was also given a liver transplant. His condition improved after the surgery, although his recovery was long. He spent seven weeks in the hospital, including three weeks in the intensive care unit in an induced coma at the Austin Hospital in Melbourne. These four people were all a little older, but they were really good people and as far as I know, in good health, had many years to live. It's heartbreaking that their lives were ended in such a brutal and unkind way. Yeah, so much suffering. It's just really awful. Yeah. Aaron also sought medical treatment at Lean Gotha Hospital two days later, on Monday, July thirty. First, she complained of gastro intestinal issues and diarrhea.

12:50 Something I learned while investigating this case in Australia. Here we would say I have the stomach flu, and Australia you say gastro. Okay, her vital signs were taken and her blood pressure and heart rate were found to be dangerously high, but she abruptly left the hospital, even signing a waiver that she was leaving against medical advice. She was there between eight o five and eight ten. Imagine going to the emergency room in the US and being in and out in five minutes. That is very hard to imagine. That. Actually, Doctor Webster did say that there was some sort of a bell that she was ringing. I think it was a bell that for nurse attention. She kept like ringing the bell over and over. And it was Monday morning, and he actually was very busy, but she was so persistent that he went and asked if he could help her.

13:36 Okay, after she left, Doctor Christopher Webster had an uneasy feeling. He had seen Gail Don Heather and Ian and knew how sick. They were. In fact, they were still at the hospital that morning awaiting transfer to a larger hospital. I think a couple of them may have been transferred already. But doctor Webster said that he believed that where he was talking to Aaron that she could possibly see into one of at least one of their rooms, and he was struck by her not asking about their condition. Interesting. Doctor Webster was afraid that Aaron had also suffered from mushroom poisoning and wanted her to return to the hospital. He attempted to call her cell phone three times and left her several messages. When she didn't answer, he called the police for assistance.

14:19 Hello, what addressed? He had? The police? So, this is doctor Chris Webster calling from Lee and Gatha Hospital and I have a concern regarding a patient that presented here earlier but has left the building and is potentially exposed to a faithal toxin from mushroom poisoning. And I've tried several times to get hold of her on her mobile phone. So before I get all that information in what addressed? You need the police to attend, doctor Chris where so? Well? Should I give the hospital address or the address of the patient if you know where they are there adress, I have the address of the patients. Yeah, go ahead of that, okay, read Leona Leon Gather three nine fives, Thank you, so eighty four gifts in street Lean Gather, Victoria.

15:10 The nearest inter section is Worthy Street. Is that correct? I'd have to get good Walt maps up, but yes, I would say that sounds right. That sounds like a street and Lean gas. What's her name? So? The last name is Patterson p A T T E R S O M. First name Aaron E R I M. Do you have a dot of birth thirt yes of September nineteen seventy four. When did she present at hospital at eight five today? Yeah? Mushroom poisoning, you said, yeah.

15:51 So there were five people that ate a meal on Saturday and two of them are in intensive care at dan in l Hospital to have just been transferred from Lean at the hospital to danding On Hospital, and Aaron presented this morning with symptoms of poisoning. Be with me and what happened when she presented? She's got the move. No, there was time for the nurse to begin observations and I was managing the other critically unwell patient. So I had a brief chatter about where the mushrooms were obtained.

16:39 And after that, while I was attending the other patients, the nurse informed me that she had discharged herself against medical device. So I don't know exactly. Oh, we've got a form here, handles tell me what time she left. No, it doesn't have a time. She lift it for five minutes. I saw footage from video surveillance and Aarin can be seen wearing white pants. A lot of people have talked about Aaron wearing white pants when she is having explosive diarrhea and how most people would not choose to wear white fit.

17:21 Yeah, probably not. Also it's the middle of winter too, and I know that's not well. They were kind of cream colored, I think, but yeah, good, good point. I know you're like the fashion exactly. When police arrived at Aaron's home, she didn't appear. To be there. However, they retrieved scraps of the beef Wellington from her garbage and delivered them to the hospital shortly after ten am for testing. When officers called Aaron on her cell phone, she was cooperative and provided them with the security code to open the gate. Erin voluntarily returned to the hospital an hour and thirty eight minutes after her initial visit, where she was kept for observation for twenty four hours. The doctor treating her said that she was quote moderately dehydrated and appeared to have a gastrointestinal type illness, but had no clinical or biochemical evidence of amanita or mushroom poisoning or other toxicological substance ingestion. Her liver function was normal.

18:14 The best course of treatment for mushroom poisoning is to treat the liver or to block the enzymes from entering the liver. With the other patients, they were all in liver failure and so they thought, you know, Aaron was feeling okay, we should give her these liver blocking enzymes so it doesn't get to her liver. So that might have been why her liver functions were normal. Well, probably not, actually, because I typically you are exhibiting symptoms like twelve hours after you ingest the mushrooms, Okay, So the fact that it was two days later, she probably was in the clear, right, But they were being abundantly cautious because of the severity of the other four people's illness.

18:57 Sure the hospital insisted that Aaron's children and also be admitted for observation, despite not displaying any symptoms. Aaron had served them the leftover beef Wellington, but had scraped off the mushrooms. She was adamant that they hadn't eaten any of the mushrooms and didn't want them taken out of school, but Simon brought them to the hospital. Aaron and the children were released the following day. None of them had the mushroom tocsin in their bloodstreams. Aaron, who had experienced issues with her potassium levels previously in her life, had normal potassium levels, which, if she had had explosive diarrhea as she had reported, would be a little surprising. My Cologists or mushroom experts have said that the beef Wellington that Aaron gave her kids, even if she had scraped off the pastry and the mushrooms, the mushroom toxins probably still would have leached into the beef.

19:48 Yeah. I would think so too. Yeah. Doctor Webster later told the Harold's son that he knew Aarin was a calculated murderer when she revealed to him that she had purchased the mushrooms for the dinner from Woolworth, her local market. Quote. If she said she picked the mushrooms, it would have been a very different mindset for me, because there would have been an instant assumption it was all a tragic accident. But once she said that answer, my thoughts were, holy fucking shit, you fucking did it, you crazy bitch, You poison them all. He called Aaron a quote disturbed, sociopathic nutbag. She wasn't freaking out about the safety of her children. Looking into her eyes, I thought, I don't know what planet you're on, but you're not on Earth. Here, he is describing what it felt like to be in her presence.

20:33 There is an eerie sort of disquiet that you have in her presence, But it's not the typical sort of scary ogre type fee that you have. It's more visceral than that. It's sort of her oddness gets under your skin, and penetratic, brian and just she's not it's not pleasant to be around her. The doctor Webster doesn't shy away from speaking his mind or using colorful language. We'll talk about that a little bit more later. We'll be back after a break.

21:22 Long before the headlines of her deadly beef Wellington made international news. Aaron Trudy's Scudder, was a bright young woman growing up in Melbourne's southeastern suburbs. Born in nineteen seventy four to a businessman father and a mother who was a children's literature professor at Monash University, Aaron was raised in glen Waverley in a family that valued education, ideas and intellect. Her sister Kinwyn would go on to become a scientist. Aaron, too, was curious and ambitious. She started out studying science at the University of Melbourne, then pivoted to accounting before becoming qualified as an air traffic controller in two thousand and one. Aaron met Simon Patterson in two thousand and four while working for Monash City Council.

22:07 Aaron was a representative for the RSPCA or Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. Simon worked as a civil engineer. They were friends first, often spending time together in a larger group, going camping and taking trips together before they became a couple in two thousand and five, engaged a year later, and married in two thousand and seven, when Erin was thirty three. They shared a love of travel and moved across the country, living for a time in York and Pemberton, small towns in western Australia, where Aaron even ran a second hand bookstore, but eventually they returned to Victoria, settling in South Gippsland near Simon's family.

22:48 Erin became active in the community, editing a local church newsletter, raising their two children, and in quieter moments, indulging in her growing interest in true crime. We'll have to combat that. Aaron and Simon Patterson's marriage experienced frequent ups and downs, including several separations between twenty nine and twenty fourteen, before they permanently separated in twenty fifteen. Their first separation occurred shortly after the birth of their first child, during a time when Aaron was struggling with postpartum depression. Religion often played a central role in their marital challenges. Simon was a committed Christian, deeply involved in his Baptist church, particularly the one where his uncle Ian served as pastor. Aaron, on the other hand, identified as a fundamentalist atheist before their marriage.

23:38 What is a fundamentalist atheist? Hey, well it quick Google tells me what I probably should have known from the beginning, but it's basically an atheist who is very strident in their views, like on, intolerant of anything else. Well Erin did become a Christian after they wed, but there are signs that the shift in her belief may not have fully taken root their differences and eventual separation, Aaron and Simon remained on amicable terms. They co parented their two children, spent holidays together, attended church as a family, and even went on trips together. The lunch where Aaron served the beef Wellington allegedly containing death cap mushrooms, was not the first time she is accused of trying to harm Simon. Prosecutors pointed to three earlier incidents in November twenty twenty one, May twenty twenty two, and September twenty twenty two. During the May twenty twenty two episode, Simon was hospitalized with serious gut problems and spent twenty one days in intensive care. Boy, I wish I had more information about this, but I couldn't find any more about it.

24:42 But very interesting. Yeah, and I can't blame Simon for not going to the lunch that Erin. No, I wish he would have warned his family members not to go, and I. Think he must have felt that they were safe if he wasn't there. Yeah, Aaron had inherited several millions of dollars from her her grandmother and later from her mother. Financially comfortable, she didn't really need to work. She was also known to be generous with her money, reportedly loading hundreds of thousands of dollars to Simon's brother and sister so they could build their own homes. After separating from Simon, Aaron Patterson appeared to lead a quiet and increasingly isolated life in her rual leand Gatha home. Beneath the surface, though she carried deep emotional wounds, some dating back to her childhood. In messages posted to Facebook, Erin described her upbringing lacking warmth and affection. Quote, we had a horrible upbringing.

25:36 Mom was essentially a cold robot. It was like being brought up in a Russian orphanage where they don't touch the babies. Dad wanted to be warm and loving to us, but Mom wouldn't let him because it would spoil us, so he did as he was told. Erin's main social outlet was a True Crime Facebook group, where some of her private messages revealed rising resentment toward the Patterson family. In December twenty twenty two, Aaron expressed frustration over her in laws reluctance to support her during her separation from Simon, quote, I'm sick of this shit. I want nothing to do with them. I thought his parents would want him to do the right thing, but it seems they're concern about not wanting to feel uncomfortable and not wanting to get involved in their son's personal manners or over writing that.

26:20 So fuck them. In another message, she added, this family, I swear to fucking God. So she's making these posts in a true crime Facebook group. I think she just became like very friendly with some of them, and she was just venting her frustrations. But when you're married in your forties with kids, should your parents be involved in your marriage? I would hope not. Later, Aaron expressed regret over the angry messages that she had sent, saying that she loved her in laws and that they had always treated her like a daughter. In fact, she had frequent and friendly contact with Gail, often exchanging friendly and loving messages and sometimes parenting advice on Mother's Day in twenty twenty three, just two months before the fatal lunch, Aaron sent Gail a warm text message, Happy Mother's Day. You're the best mother in law I could ask for. But her relationship with Simon continued to deteriorate.

27:14 When he filed his taxes as a separated person in twenty twenty two, it altered Aaron's own tax filing status, costing her a substantial exemption that she had relied on. In response, she demanded that Simon begin paying child support and contribute to school fees. They quarreled over their custody and financial agreements. Erin no longer allowed the children to spend the night at Simon's house because it was messy and chaotic. In text to friends, she referred to him as a deadbeat. I'm not sure if this is accurate, but I read that his child support payment was thirty eight dollars a month, which seems really really small. Yeah, unless it was a week, but even week, that seems really small. And that's Australian dollars. But I think Australian dollars are not dramatically different.

27:58 Yeah, yeah, I think ar was comfortable. I'm not sure if she was well lost. So maybe the payment was so low because she didn't really need the money. Well, yeah, you said she had inherited quite a bit of money, right, Well. She had built a house in the last year year or so before, like in twenty twenty two. Maybe she built a new house and she was pretty generous. I'm not sure how much of that money she. Had left, gotcha. Tensions escalated, Erin began sending aggressive text messages to Simon's parents, Don and Gail, who were reportedly hurt and confused by the tone and intensity of her messages. Erin was also deeply affected by what she perceived is being excluded from Patterson family events. One moment that especially stung was not being invited to Gail's seventieth birthday party. Her hurt and anger were evident in a series of text messages sent at the time. Seems like my invite tomorrow is a bit of an afterthought, and not even from your parents, so I might pass. Thanks. What I reckon is that everybody forgot to invite me to this. I feel very hurt about that. Your response is to say, I'm being ridiculous.

29:02 Well, you can believe whatever you feel like. But frankly, you're as far off the mark as you possibly could be on this. I know they would love you to be there. They've been talking about this and losing sleep over it for weeks. Aaron went to the party with her children, but apparently an argument broke out between her and Simon. After the event, she sent another text apologizing I was feeling very heard and lashed out. It's no excuse. I'd like to not do that again. That sounds like a text message I feel like sending anytime we have a social outing. But doesn't Simon come off as unflappable? Yeah, he really does. Yeah. I think you and Simon are probably quite similar. Despite the turmoil in her life, Aaron made plans in twenty twenty two to enroll in a midwifery program, but delayed her studies when her daughter required additional support at home.

29:52 There are over five thousand varieties of mushrooms, and about fifty of them are poisonous. Death cap mushrooms or Amanita filoid's and their relatives are among the most poisonous mushrooms in the world and are responsible for the vast majority of fatal mushroom poisonings. They have a smooth, pale green or yellowish cap, white gills, and a white stem with a cup like structure at the base, and typically measure between four and sixteen centimeters or one and a half to six inches in diameter. Death caps contain potent toxins called amatoxins, which are deadly even in very small amounts, and are not destroyed by cooking, freezing, or drying. Just one mushroom can be fatal to an adult. Symptoms typically appear six to twelve hours after ingestion, and may include severe vomiting, diarrhea, and abdominal pain, followed by a deceptive period of improvement before liver and kidney failure sets in.

30:46 Without prompt and aggressive treatment, including possible liver transplantation, death can occur within days. Native to Europe, death caps are now found across North America, Australia and other parts of the world, often growing oak, pine, or chestnut trees. They're especially dangerous because they closely resemble several edible mushrooms, making accidental ingestion tragically common. There's no antidote for death cap. Mushroom poisoning experts think that aaron must have put at least ten mushrooms in the beef wellington to cause such serious illness and death. There is a new potential treatment for mushroom poisoning, an extract from a milk thistle plant called syllabinin. It's not yet FDA approved, but has helped between thirty to fifty percent of patients, but it needs to be delivered quickly to counter the effects of toxins on the liver. But mushrooms aren't all bad. They are a low calorie, nutrient rich food that may support longevity and overall health. They're packed with bee vitamins and antioxidants, and are one of the few plant based sources of vitamin D. These compounds help combat oxidative stress, reduce inflammation, and support immune function, all of which are key to healthy aging. Some varieties, like chitaki and lions main have been linked to benefits like improved heart health, better cognitive function, and a lower risk of certain cancers. Including mushrooms in a balanced diet may contribute to a longer, healthier life.

32:11 Is this your way of trying to convince me to like mushrooms more than I do? I sometimes take a mushroom supplement, I mix it into my tea. It's most to help concentration and focus, and I really do think it works. The commercial mushroom industry is highly regulated, ensuring that Storrebaugh varieties are safe to eat. However, foraging for wild mushrooms carries significant risks. In countries like Switzerland, mushroom inspection stations are available where foragers can have their fines evaluated by experts before consuming them, but budget cuts have led to fewer inspection centers, resulting in more poisonings. One of the challenges is that toxic mushrooms can change in appearance throughout their life cycle, making it difficult even for experienced foragers and even mycologists to tell the difference between safe and porous varieties. While identification apps are available, they aren't always reliable.

33:05 The same species of mushroom can look quite different depending on its age, the soil it grows in, and environmental conditions. I know here in Michigan people really love to go hunting for morel mushrooms, right. Yeah. Since twenty twenty, there has been an uptick of about twenty percent in mushroom related illnesses and deaths. As foraging has become a popular hobby, many thousands of people become ill each year from eating inedible mushrooms, and dozens die. I just want to reiterate here that mushrooms that you buy in your supermarket are very safe. They are grown for consumers, right, and there's no question that they are safe. But when I was making the mushroom tart, I used baby Bella mushrooms and mushrooms like you're not supposed to put them in water. You're just supposed to, like, you know, rub them with a cloth to get the dirt off, okay, And these were particularly dirty and kind of gross.

33:55 Interesting, And I think. I had it In high school and college I had microbiology and we studied fungi, and for a few years I didn't eat mushrooms because funga its fung guy is it's weird. It's a weird life form, isn't it. I've heard that there's new varieties of funguy that are emerging that might be life threatening. No, I really don't have any or either that. Okay, yep. It's just odd how they can just pop up out of nowhere. Yeah, it really is. Looking for a new hobby. During the twenty twenty COVID pandemic, Aaron began foraging for mushrooms in the Krumborough Botanic Gardens near her home and in her backyard. In April twenty twenty three, the Victoria Department of Health issued a public warning that death cap mushrooms were growing in the region. The deadly mushrooms were spotted a short drive from Aaron's home in rural Victoria. On a website I Naturalist, hobbyist foragers posted about the location of mushrooms they found in the wild, cautioning others to steer clear of the deadly fung guy. One user gave the exact location of the death cap mushrooms they'd spotted, giving precise latitude longitude measurements. Aaron's computer history showed that she visited the Eye Naturalist website at least once. It was a town called Locke in the Gippsland region. It was the first time the death cap mushrooms had been spotted there, at least according to the website.

35:15 When law enforcement dug into Aarin's phone and electronic devices, her location revealed that she was near the area where the death cap mushrooms grew. In April and May twenty twenty three, she'd spent about twenty five minutes there, just long enough to find and pick the mushrooms. On April twenty eighth, twenty twenty three, the same day she was near one of the Death Cap mushroom areas, she purchased a food dehydrator. Investigators believed that Aarin has multiple phones, although she only turned over one. The iPhone she relinquished to police had been reset to factory settings four times on February twelfth and August second, fifth, and sixth. The last reset was done remotely when the phone was all ready in the hands of law enforcement. That's a very brazen activity, isn't it.

36:04 Yeah, it is. I didn't even know you could do that. In surveillance camera footage, Aaron is seen with a pink Samsung phone that has never been recovered. It seemed to be her primary phone between February and August twenty twenty three. Aaron claimed that she purchased the mushrooms from a local market and adamantly denied the notion that she'd foraged the Death Cap mushrooms. She told investigators that she'd purchase some of the mushrooms in powdered form from an Asian grocery store, but she couldn't recall which Asian grocery store or produce a receipt. Investigators visited all of the possible locations but couldn't find the packaging that Aaron had described, So she sent them on this wild goose chase. And it's kind of crazy to me that she couldn't say, oh, yeah, I got I got the mushrooms from the store on first in Maine or something. That doesn't like she had went to so many different Asian food markets that you know, she couldn't pinpoint it.

36:58 Yeah, that doesn't add up. Bank records didn't reveal any activity at such a store. She claimed she must have paid cash. Aaron purchased a mixture of wild mushrooms from a local Woolworth's market, including a blend of chataki, anaki and porcini. They smelled pungent, She claimed. She mixed those mushrooms with some other mushrooms that she had previously dehydrated. On August second, twenty twenty three, after leaving the hospital, she brought the food dehydrator to a recycling center or as they'd stay in Australia, a tip tip. She'd had a run in with Simon at the hospital when his parents were still in the hospital, and he'd asked her if she'd used at a hydrator on the mushrooms that had killed his family members. Police went to the tip and were able to recover the food dehydrator, and they found Aaron's fingerprints on the unit as well as deathcap mushroom residue inside.

37:50 That's pretty amazing they were able to find it. Yeah. In a search of Aaron's home on August fifth, police found a manual for the dehydrator in her kitchen. A review of surveyor Allen's video found clear images of her dropping it off. Unaware of the evidence against her, she told police that she'd never owned a dehydrator. A journalist John Ferguson, who interviewed Aaron, called her cold, mean, and vicious. The day after the lunch, Aaron and her children skipped church because she wasn't feeling well. Her son had a flying lesson about ninety minutes from their home that afternoon. He told his mom that they could skip it, but they went anyway. Aaron was seen on surveillance footage entering a gas station and heading to the restroom, again wearing the white pants. She was only inside for nine seconds.

38:37 She then purchased a sour confectionery, a ham, cheese and tomato sandwich, and a sweet chilly chicken rut. I have no idea what that is. I really don't know what it is either. I think it might just be like a piece of chicken that is seasoned really well. Okay, I mentioned these things because none of these things seemed like what you should be eating when you're having an upset. Stumm. No, but her son was with her, so maybe she was buying these snacks from her kid. Okay, But we mentioned this just because you know, she is supposed to not be feeling well, and she was only in the restroom for nine seconds, and she went on a ninety minute drive to take her son to this flying lesson. Yeah, and so not something you would do if you had serious gastro intestinal issues exactly.

39:19 But later she claimed that she had to stop on the side of the road to relieve herself and only stopped at the gas station to dispose of soiled tissues. Okay, thanks for putting that in my head. During a police interrogation, Aaron denied intentionally poisoning her in laws. She said quote. My parents are both gone, my grandparents are all gone. They're the only family that I've got. I love them a lot. Here's Aaron talking to the media about her in laws. It's a tragedy with Keppin. Can you tell us about the meal that you put. I've the devastated by what's happened by the laws of.

40:01 Tony is still in hospogles an and and Kyle I was some of the best people that I've ever been. The media was relentless in their pursuit of Aaron, and it was starting to bother her. Aaron, Kelly, you goings and like I'm going rosting. We got healthy. I am adding that to my vocabulary. Next time you ask me how I'm doing or how I'm going, I'm gonna say I'm going ship house. I did google it just to make sure that the definition of that was what you're thinking is, yeah, okay, it's pretty clear. Yeah. I think it's a good word. We'll be back after a break.

40:48 Sensing an impending arrest, on November one, twenty twenty three, Aaron had a party at her house with her children and her closest friends. She was arrested the next day and charged with three counts of murder and five counts of attempted murder. She pleaded not guilty. While in jail, she was mostly kept in solitary confinement after a fellow inmate accused her of tampering with her food. The inmate felt ill after she cooked a meal for her, and Erin was banned from the prison kitchen. I would have thought Aaron would have been banned from the prison kitchen to begin with, but okay. While Erin remained incarcerated after her arrest, her home had been burglarized several times, with thieves taking TVs, a vacuum, surveillance cameras, and even a car.

41:31 The trial of Aaron Patterson gripped the nation of Australia. Fifty witnesses testified over a ten week period. The trial took place in Morwell, about an hour from Aaron's home in lean Gatha. In Australia, no cameras are allowed in the court rooms. The public depended on journalists and podcasters for details of the trial day to day. On the eve of the trial, the attempted murder charge for Simon was dismissed. Prosecutor Nannette Rodgers sc attempted to prove that Aarin set out on four calculat deceptions quote. The first deception was the fabricated cancer claim she used as a pretense for the lunch invitation. The second deception was the lethal doses of poison the accused secreted in the home cooked beef Wellington's. The third deception was her attempts to make it seem that she also suffered death cap mushroom poisoning, and the fourth deception the sustained cover up she embarked upon to conceal the truth. Simon was the first witness.

42:27 He became emotional many times during his testimony when talking about his parents and the early days of his relationship with Aarin. He recalled that she had a good relationship with his parents quote. She especially got on with Dad. They shared a love of knowledge and learning. I think she loved his gentle nature. Although at the time of the luncheon their relationship was very strained, he hadn't given up on the thought of them reconciling. He said it was rare for Aaron to host people in her home, especially a group of that size. He talked about the breakdown in their communication in December twenty twenty two, he said, quote from my point of view, Aaron was being extremely aggressive. Doctor Christopher Webber, who treated Erin in the hospital, testified that he believed she was faking her symptoms and called her a callous, calculated killer. He said he knew she was lying when she said she'd purchased the mushrooms from a local grocer. Ian Wilkinson, a local pastor and the sole survivor of the luncheon, testified at the trial. He stood while giving his testimony.

43:26 I thought it was very brave of Ian to testify. He really had been through a lot. He lost his wife and two very beloved family members, and he almost died himself. I think his recovery was very long. I mean he was almost seventy having a liver transplant I'm sure is no picnic. And the fact that he stood during his testimony when I think most people in Australia stand when they're testifying what they offer them chairs, especially if you are in a compromised health state of health. Yeah, so he just really impresses. It seems like a wonderful man who has really been through a lot. Ian and Heather were pleased to be invited to the lunch, and he hoped that it might improve the family's relationship with Aarin. He said that at the luncheon he had noticed that Aaron had used a plate that was a different size and color than the rest of the guests.

44:14 Ian said, quote, each person had an individual serve. It was very much like a pasty. It was a pastry case, and when we cut into it there was steak and mushrooms. He testified that when he was admitted to the hospital, he had forgotten about the mushrooms in the dish and hadn't mentioned them to the doctor. He said that he'd seen Aaron eating, but couldn't remember how much she had eaten. When asked about his relationship with Aaron, Ian said quote, I would say our relationship was friendly, amicable. It did not have much depth. We were more like acquaintances. We didn't see a great deal of each other. She just seemed like a normal person to me when we met. Things were friendly. We never had arguments or disputes. She just seemed like an ordinary person. Heather would have seen Arin more than me, talk to her more than me, but we did not consider that the relationship was close.

45:01 Regarding being invited for lunch. He said that he and his wife were quote very happy to be invited. It seemed like maybe our relationship was going to improve. We were very happy to accept. In regards to Aaron's announcement about her health, Ian said, quote, she said she was very concerned because she believed it was very serious, life threatening. She was anxious about telling the kids. She was asking our advice about that, should I tell the kids or not tell the kids about this threat to my life. In that moment, I thought, this is the reason we've been invited to the lunch. I didn't quite catch what type of cancer she had. I thought it was some sort of ovarian or cervical cancer, something like that. I realized we weren't able to continue, and that we hadn't prayed about it. I suggested we pray, and I said a prayer, asking for God's blessing that Aaron would get the treatment she needed, that the kids would be okay.

45:50 Ian is sure that Aaron used the word cancer. The defense pointed to the lack of motive. Aaron was well off, had a good custody agreement with Simon in which she had the children the majority of the time, and her children loved their grandparents. But remember, the prosecution didn't have to prove a motive. They explained away Aaron's lies and deceit as panic after she realized that she'd unintentionally done away with beloved relatives. The cancer lie that was Aarin embarrassed about an upcoming weight loss surgery she was planning. But there is no evidence that Aaron had a surgery planned. And she gave the police like the name of the clinic, and that clinic didn't even offer like any kind of weight loss surgeries.

46:37 I seems like that'd be such an easy thing for the police to check out that why would she do that? You know? Yeah, the allegation that she visited towns with deathcap mushrooms was not proof and didn't pinpoint her location precisely. A friend from the online true crime group that Aarin belonged to, Daniella Barkley, testified that Aaron had excitedly shared pictures with the group of mushrooms. In her new deal. Aaron told the group that she'd quote been hiding powdered mushrooms in everything to trick her kids into eating them. Quote I mixed it with chocolate brownies. Yesterday and the kids had no idea. She had also asked the group for tips on making beef Wellington. I think this is to say that she wasn't trying to hide these things. Both of Aaron's children testified via video from interviews they gave in twenty twenty three when they were nine and fourteen. The children both confirmed that they'd eaten leftover meat from the previous day's lunch the next night for dinner, without the mushrooms or pastry. Allegedly, it was the portion that Aaron had reserved for Simon. The Sun said that in recent months his parents had been arguing more than usual. The daughter said that her mother had told her that she couldn't be at the lunch because they were going to discuss adult things. Aaron testified at length in her own defense, maintaining that the deaths were the result of a tragic accident.

47:57 Always a risky move to testify your your own dead. Some say that she came off as odd, joking awkwardly at times and sometimes appearing combative with the prosecutor. Aaron said that she might have inadvertently mixed dried foraged mushrooms that she had kept mixed in with store bought ones, not realizing that the foraged ones were Dudley. This mushroom business is very confusing to me. Yeah, she had some mushrooms that were like in a powdered form. Then she'd bought some from the store, and then she admits that she may have foraged some of them and somehow they all got mixed together. She did not deny that there were death cap mushrooms in the beef Wellington, but she wasn't sure how they got there. She said that she had consumed the same meal individual parcels of beef Wellington, but then after her guests left, she had binge eaten about three fourths of the orange cake that Gail had made, and then vomited it up because she was so full.

48:57 Her attorneys explained that this purging might be why she fared better than her lunch. Yes, ok, quote, I ate another piece of cake and then another piece, so I went to the toilet and brought it back up again. After I'd done that, I felt better. The novel defense. Yeah. Well, Aaron went on to explain that she had struggled with binge eating disorder for most of her adult life. She talked about her struggle with self esteem and how putting weight on in recent years had added to her mental health issues. In late twenty twenty two, she felt Simon and his family were pulling away from her and inviting her to fewer family functions, and that is why she invited them to her house for lunch.

49:37 I kind of wondered about that because it seemed odd to invite your in laws from your husband, who you were separated from, to a lunch. You know. Well, I thought the idea was that she had this health issue and she needed their support. And Ian was a pastor, and you know, pastors are really good to talk about your struggles, right, And then I think that's why she invited him, but clearly that that's not why she invited them. Aaron said she prefers exotic mushrooms because they just taste more interesting and they have more flavor. They tasted good and I didn't get sick. She said she made the beef Wellington's to make something new and special and added the dried mushrooms because the paste was bland.

50:17 The paste being like what's robbed. On the Yeah, the mushrooms that are finely minced, Okay, I don't know, I've never made beef Wellington. I've always wanted to try it, but I've never made it. But I'm not sure what you make to make the paste, But somehow you mix it all together and you stick it on the beef and then you wrap it in the pastry. Gotcha. I am curious too. Like here she's saying, well, it was bland, so it means that she must have tasted it. And you know, if you're tasting, why didn't you get I know she's saying that she vomited it up. But though that would have been she would have tasted it way before it was actually done. Right. Yeah. She admitted that she'd disposed of the food dehydrator after her in laws fell ill when she she realized that she may have been culpable. She admitted to lying to investigators because she was fearful of being arrested and losing custody of her children. Quote. I agree that I lied because I was afraid I would be held responsible.

51:14 When asked if she believed that there were deathcap mushrooms in the beef Wellington, she replied that she did, but insisted that it was a horrible accident. Over the course of eight days of testimony and crossed examination, Aarin steadfastly maintained her innocence, insisting that she accidentally included foraged mushrooms in the beef Wellington. The most baffling part of the case for many has been the lack of a clear motive. Prosecutor Nannette Rogers even struggled presenting the case with no motive. In her closing arguments, she said, quote, she alone chose what to cook, obtained the ingredients, and prepared the meal. That choice to make individual portions allowed her complete control over the ingredients in each individual parcel.

51:56 I believe that Aaron said that she couldn't find the right cut of meat eat and that's why she chose to make the individual portions okay. On June thirtieth, twenty twenty five, the twelve jurors, seven men and five women, began their deliberations to decide Aaron's fate. The judge, Justice Christopher Beale, reminded the jurors that Aaron's lies and disposal of evidence should not bias their judgment against her. He said, quote, this is a court of law, not a court of morals. The jury's decision must be unanimous because of the media attention the case has received. The jury was sequestered with no access to their cell phones. In the United States, if you're an alternate jurer, you know that you're an alternate juror. In Australia, what they did is right before that they were about to deliberate, they pick two numbers, like out of a box, and those people were dismissed.

52:48 Oh, that seems smart. Because you're an alternate juror, and you know you're an alternate juror, you might not pay as close of attention. Right. Aaron's supporters installed black tarps around the front walkway and carport of her home to shield her from the media, signaling that she was hopeful of her release. On Monday, July seventh, after six days, the jury reached a consensus. Under Australian law, unlike in the US, none of the jurors can be publicly identified, and they're prohibited from disclosing jury room deliberations, which are considered secret even after the trial ends. Which again I think that's a pretty good way of handling that it is. But as a true crime podcaster, I really like it when I can hear what the jurors have to say after the trial's.

53:29 Over, I think I realize that I forgot to say something that is very important. Aaron was on the stand testifying for eight days. Eight days, eight days. Wow, that's a lot of time. Right after reaching the verdict, the jury filed into the courtroom around two pm. The victims' families had attended the trial each day, but were not present when the verdict was read. Aaron tried to make eye contact with the jurors, but they avoided her gaze. As the verdict was read, she looked calm and poised, but blinked furiously, as if to keep her emotions at bay. She was found guilty on all three counts of murder and one count of attempted murder. Her sentencing will be announced at a future date, but it's likely she will receive a lifetime sentence. She has twenty eight days to file an appeal, and as of the time we are recording, it hasn't yet been filed.

54:20 After the verdict, she was taken to the Maximum security Dame Phyllis Frost Center, the largest, toughest and only maximum security women's prison in Victoria, about forty five minutes from Melbourne. Aarin will likely again be in solitary confinement because of the severity of her crime against elderly people. The inmates read the news and are well aware of who she is. She will likely die in this prison unless her appeal goes through. She is the only triple murderer in the prison. The Patterson and Wilkinson families decline to make a statement after the verdict, but the police released the following statement quote. Victoria Police acknowledged the decision of the jury today. Our thoughts are with their respective families at this time. We acknowledge how difficult these past two years have been for them.

55:03 We will continue to support them in every way possible Following this decision. We would like to acknowledge the work of the Homicide Squad detective over the course of this complex investigation, as well as the significant support received from a number of other areas across Victoria Police, and that the Patterson and Wilkinson families will not be supplying a statement at this time. The beef Wellington recipe that Aaron used came from the book recipe Tin Eats Dinner from famed Australian chef Nagi Mahashi I visit her website all the time if you haven't gone there. She has really great recipes. She's adorable and very funny. She just developed a recipe this week for peanut butter brownies that she was really proud of that. She hasn't posted the recipe yet, but oh, I'm excited to make yess for you. In response to the media storm surrounding the case, she wrote on her website, quote, Dear journalists of Australia, please stop calling and emailing and texting and dming me about the Aaron Patterson case. It is, of course upsetting to learn that one of my recipes, possibly the one that I've spent more hours perfecting than any other, something I created to bring joy and happiness, is entangled in a tragic situation.

56:13 Other than that, I have nothing to say and I won't be talking to anyone. Thank you for respecting my privacy. I mean, really, if you think about it, why would why. Would just and her recipe did not say death cap mushrooms in it. Lauren Sykes, a Swinburne University PhD candidate in true crime podcasting, told news dot com dot Au that the media and public have turned a devastating loss of life into a show for their own amusement. Quote from an avalanche of memes about the case to journalists hounding the author of the cookbook Patterson based or Beef Wellington recipe on, there has been no shortage of unhelpful and deeply unseerious behavior online which has been spurred by this case. The Aaron Patterson case had all the hallmarks of a classic true crime til fraud interpersonal family relationships which led to murder a perpetrator who has been described as narcissistic and evil in an investigation with enough twists and turns to rival any true crime podcaster series. The tense media and public attention on this case was inevitable, but the amount of online discussion and in person gossiping about the Patterson case reveals how easy it is to turn unthinkable tragedy into an amusing pop culture moment. To chat about murder is not fun. Having not just one, but several family members ripped away from you by the actions of another is a harrowing experience. The last thing the Patterson and Wilkinson families need is more eyes on them during such a horrifying moment in their lives. This pain and grief will be with them for the rest

57:45 of their lives. The intense international media coverage of this case has received will certainly not have helped them grieve. Well, that's a very well said statement. I thought so too, And we think we talk about this all the time off air and on air. It's a struggle. I mean, we are sharing these stories and they are about tragic things that happen, and we try to have a little fun while we tell the stories, but we try not to let that interfere with respect for the victims and that type of thing. But we try our best, but it's a delicate balance. Really. Yes, we can't say it enough that we realize that it is precarious the situation that we put ourselves in because we do respect the victims, not just the victims, but the families and even the communities.

58:26 Yeah. The elder Pattersons and Wilkinson's lived in the quaint village of Cornborough, population five thousand. DoD and Gale had lived there since nineteen eighty four and had raised their four children there. Ian Wilkinson was the pastor of the local Baptist church for over twenty years. He and Heather also had four children. The people of Kornborough haven't enjoyed being in the spotlight. We're talking about the deceased victims. Everyone in the village knows someone who has been directly affected by the tragedy. Nathan Hershey, a cattle farmer and counselor for corn Borough, told the BBC after the Verdi was announced, quote, it's not an easy thing to go through a grieving process, and it's particularly not easy when there's been so much attention.

59:08 There's an opportunity now for a lot of people to be able to have some closure. The locals are fiercely loyal and grateful to Gail, Don, Heather and Ian who helped build and strengthen their community. Don was a former beloved school teacher. Hershey said, quote, you'll hear a lot of people talk very fondly about Don, about the impact he had on them. He was a great teacher and a really engaging person as well. Gail and Heather were known for their kindness, generosity and willingness to volunteer for various community projects. Hershey said, quote, lives in our local community have changed forever. But I would say for a lot of people it's just become almost like pop culture. Though the past two years has at times brought out the worst in our community, it's also shown a light on the best. We want to be known as a community that has been strong and has supported one another, rather than a place that has known for what we now know was murder. Three crosses were mounted at the entrance of the township and the victim's honor. A message was posted outside of the church where Ian is pastor after the verdict was read, quote, we all greatly miss Heather, Don and Gail. Whether we were friends for a short time or over twenty years, they were very special people who loved God and love to bless others. It's been a long journey, and we continue to support Ian Simon and all of the Wilkinson and Patterson family members through this difficult time. We appreciate all of the care from our local communities, special support from individuals and from the Baptist Union of Victoria and the churches and people from all over the world who have been praying for us.

1:00:39 As our pastor Ian has said, quote, life can be hard, but our God is faithful and he is always with us. The Wilkinson and Patterson families have asked for privacy during this time. Please also respect the privacy of our church family. Rest in peace, Gail Don and. Heather, Yes, rest in peace. I'm so glad Ian survived though. Yeah, for sure, But it must be. Hard to be the only survivor of this. I'm sure there's a lot of survivors guilt that goes along with that. Probably a lot of gratitude too. Yeah, before I ask you some discussion questions, I wanted to review the exculpatory and inculpatory evidence. Okay, the inculpatory evidence includes Aaron choosing to make beef Wellington where she could chop up the mushrooms.

1:01:22 The mushrooms were deadly and make it really small, so the guests really didn't know what they were eating. And then she chose to make them into individual portions where she could maybe make some without the poisonous mushrooms for herself. And the fact that her plate was a different color. Right, the cancer diagnosis. She never had cancer, although I don't know if I said this, but during the trial she swore that she didn't say the word cancer, that she said that she was ill. Okay, she had visited the eye naturalist website searching for the death cap mushrooms, and her phone pinged near the reported area. Aaron claimed to have bought the mushrooms at the local Asian grocery store, but no one else.

1:02:02 Can remember where it was either, right, But. Can you imagine like the panic for the police at first when this, you know, just regular middle aged mom is like, yeah, you know, I made this beak Wellington and everyone got sick. They're probably really scared that other people in the community are going to get sick from these mushrooms, so they really did try hard to find them. She reset her electronic devices to factory settings multiple times, she disposed of the dehydrator, and even though she said she was sick, she really wasn't sick, especially compared to the other people right lunch. Do you think that there's any exculpatory evidence. I don't recall hearing anything that was super exculpatory up to this point. But when I first heard about the case, when I heard that she fed the leftovers to her children and they didn't get sick, and I was like, well, what mother would feed, you know, the leftovers to their children.

1:02:51 The prosecutor says that she'd never she had some different beef, and she probably you know, gave her kids like beef that had never touched the mushrooms she did, and give them anything that she'd scraped the toxic mushrooms from. Yeah, that's probably true. Her son did testify though, she said, you know, we had the beef and it was like some of the best beef I'd ever had. It was delicious. The fact that she shared some of the pictures with her Facebook friends and she put the hydrated mushrooms, that was kind of telling to me. And one of the pictures I'll post the picture. I think there are fourteen mushrooms that she has on the tray of the dehydrator, and she has them on a scale. Having them on the scale is a little damning too, because that indicates that maybe she knew exactly Yeah, I think, like I said, there were fourteen mushrooms. One death cap mushroom might be deadly, but two, you know, definitely is going to be more deadly, right, And the fact that she dehydrated them is like there were a limited supply of death cap mushrooms. She wouldn't want to keep going back there, So maybe that's why she chose to dehydrate them too. She claimed that she had been putting mushrooms in everything. She wasn't trying to hide the fact that, you know, she was really into mushrooms and she was feeding into her kids and dehydrating them and whatnot. She was very cooperative, and the investigation, you know, none of these are like, oh, yeah, she couldn't have done it because she was cooperating with the police.

1:04:13 And the lack of a clear motive. Yeah, that's the one that kind of gets me. I don't really see what the motive is there. I know I shouldn't be diagnosing people with psychological disorders, but I think Aaron could have orderline personality disorder. We talk about this a lot, characterized by intense emotions, unstable relationship, a distorted self image, and impulsive behaviors. People with BPD may experience mood swings, fear of abandonment, and difficulty manning managing their younger They often struggle with a deep inner turmoil, and may alternate between idealizing and devaluing others. So I mentioned this because she did have this distorted self image, right, And we talk about this every time someone in one of our cases has orderline personality disorder, the fear of abandonment.

1:05:02 Simon is leaving her. She's feeling like, you know, Gail and done. And that was her only family she had. Yes, she's feeling like they're moving on without her. Yeah, so I think she might have been lonely and angry. It was festering in sight of her. She was fixating on these relationships and she just couldn't move on. Yeah, that's a much more subtle and nuanced diagnosis that I was going to make, which is that she had a screw loose and there was just something off with her, is what it seemed like. So you think Aaron is guilty. Yes, I do think she is guilty. It just seems like too it would be too much of a coincidence that she didn't get sick, that she had a different color plate. It just seems like too much. And the fact that she said that she bought the mushrooms and then she had the searches.

1:05:50 So all the lies that she Yeah, it's just all. It was all too much for me to believe. Honestly, I think if she had said that she from the beginning, if she said I foraged for mushrooms and I didn't realize they were poisonous. I made a terrible mistake. I think she might have gotten away with it. I still think she might have done it intentionally, but it just seems like all those lies kind of caught up to her. Yeah, I agree. Why is everyone so interested in this case? It's a good question. I think that the podcast PhD person said it well, right, it's sort of this interpersonal family dynamics and this perpetrator who is narcissistic and evil, and the fact that I think any of us can imagine being in a situation where we, you know, eat something and are poisoned and you could just feel then you can just feel it. Sort of the personal nature of it.

1:06:40 And I think people are really intrigued by Aaron as a person. She seems like such an average middle aged woman. Right, she could be your neighbor, she could be your ant, She's any woman, and any person really is capable of murder. Yeah, And I think also the availability of poison mushrooms, I think that's all. It's a little bit of a scary thing, right, just knowing that you can go pick a mushroom thinking it's going to be perfectly fine, and it could kill you. I read a lot of accounts of people who were like I saw some it was more in the law, and I saw some mushrooms grod in my ditch and I said, well, those look delicious, and I cooked them up in some bottle. Boy, that is the scary thing, because I did look at a lot of pictures and the death cap mushrooms. They do look delicious. Yeah, I mean they look like, you know, just regular mushrooms. So really, if you're a mushroom forager, you probably know what you're doing for the most part.

1:07:33 Yeah, just be careful. We talked a little bit about Switzerland, how they have these stations where you can take the foraged mushroom. Yeah, it is a really good idea, and they said that you know, we're professionals, but sometimes we don't even really know, oh boy, because they can different be different colors and different seasons and different sizes. And yeah, it's very tricky. After Simon canceled, why did Aaron go through with the lunch? You know, that's a very good question. It just feels like she had made all these plans and she was just going to go through with it no matter what. Obviously she wanted him there. She made that very clear, But it just almost seems like she had it all planned out and she didn't want to cancel her plans.

1:08:14 You know. Well, in the way that she could hurt Simon the most would be to kill the people he loves. Yeah, it's a true and talking about survivor's guilt, Simon must have a horrible survivor's guilt. Yeah, I'm sure Aaron was a true crime consumer. Do you think that she could have gotten away with it if she would? Did she not plan good enough? Like I said before, I think she could have gotten away with it if she just basically from the beginning made it seem like a tragic accident that she foraged mushrooms that were poisonous, although her Internet search histories might have still brought her down with that. But yeah, yeah, I think if you run the jury, you would have found her guilty. Yeah, I think so. I mean, like we always say, it's hard to say without listening to all the testimony, but from everything you shared with me about the case, it seems pretty clear to me that she did it intentionally.

1:09:04 I think she came off as pretty unlikable to a lot of people. Remember doctor Chris the nine to one one call, the zero zero zero call. We listened to ye. He mentioned that he had a previous interaction with Aaron years ago and he remembered her and he said that he seems like a very affable guy mm hmmm, and he tried to make jokes with her, you know, light in the mood, and he said that she was a tough crowd. Yeah. I mean the way he described her, that that kind of has stuck with me from when we talked about that because he couldn't he couldn't describe her very well, but he was like, there's just something off about her, and that really I can kind of see that well. Speaking of doctor Webster, he is very important to the case.

1:09:46 Had he not called Triple Zero, scraps from the meal might not have been gathered in time and they became a key piece of evidence. The police went looking for Aaron. They went to her house. When she didn't appear to be home, they notified doctor Webster, who then told them to check her trash for the beef. Wellington. He said that he almost instantly realized that Aaron was a murderer after she left the hospital the first time. His nurse said quote looks like someone is trying to do away with the church crowd. But doctor Chris is now under fire for his comments, and he has been accused of misogyny. When I read this, I'm not sure. I think that other people are talking about when he called Aaron some names, he called the bitch and other things, so I think people were citing that as misogyny. So he's a little nervous that his reputation is ruined. I think most people probably don't think that. I don't know.

1:10:38 Yeah, I mean I don't know either. I haven't listened to everything that he's said to me. I'm not sure how the laws work in Australia. I think our friend Shanala asked her about this and she wasn't sure either. But the police went in Aaron's trash to get the beef Wellington out, and I don't believe they had a search warrant because I don't think they could have gotten one so quickly, because remember Aaron was I got the hospital at eight am and they were in our house by ten am. So like in the United States, you have to have a search warrant. I think unless the trash is out at the current was. The trash in the house or was it. I don't think the trash was in the house. I think it was. Yeah, I don't know if it was you know, out at the road or you know, if it was by the house. That would be something that I would be afraid that might come back in an appeal situation if it wasn't properly. But I haven't heard anyone mention that, so it's probably you know, y legal. Yeah, I do want to mention my sources for this episode.

1:11:35 I listened to a couple of different podcasts, the Mushroom Cook podcast and the Mushroom Mushroom Trial podcast. I watched an episode of sixty Minutes Australia which I watched a few of those for different cases, and they really do a good job in that show. And I also read about one hundred articles. Yeah, I hope they did it justice. But the podcasts the other podcasts were really interesting and informative. I just have such a love for our Australian listeners. They just seem like the best people. So thanks to Schanella who I mentioned, and Sarah who helped me out, and Dave who is your friend who always helps us out too, So we love you guys, and we really appreciate your assistance. Oh and one more, Bronnie, Bronnie b thank you so much. I love you, appreciate you.

1:12:22 And one of the things that Dave assisted us on, although not in time, I messaged him a while ago, but we're probabys. Like, pronunciations are always a challenge of like cities and things like that, and there were a lot in this episode of different pronunciations, but the big one Melbourne or Melbourne or Melbourne depending on then who you asked. So I messaged Dave and I asked him how you pronounced that the name of that city because he's from there. And here's what he had to say, Melbourne. So Melbourne Melbourne, which sounds really weird. It sounds weird in our American accent, it sounds, you know, great, in the Australian accent. So we try our best, but obviously we make mistakes. We did all the time, and that's okay. Hey, that's okay.

1:13:07 So I talked to a lot of listeners online, especially on Instagram, and I love talking to everyone, but this is kind of funny. If you change your profile picture, I'm not going to know who I'm talking to and a lot of people like I don't even know, Like when I said Bronni, I'm like, I think that's her name, but I'm not even I don't know what you know. Sometimes people like their Instagram profile name isn't their real name. It's just like loves flowers or something, you know, whatever it is. Like, So, you know, try not to change your profile picture because I might not know who you are, which I feel really bad saying. Which is great. It's a common thing. I think you remember somebody based on their profile picture got their name.

1:13:47 Yeah, well you know that I'm young and hip and cool. Because I watched Love Island, of course, I've learned a lot of new words. Yeah, and I thought I might give you a little quiz to see if you know what some of these words that I'm going to be using now around the house. Okay, well I probably won't, but this will be good for me. I think you're going to. I think you're going to know some of them, and I hope it will help our listeners be able to talk to your your zoomers. See, I don't even know what a zoomers you do. Our kids talk about it all you've heard. The term, but I really don't know where a zoomer is in the whole you know scheme of different generations. Okay, well, our kids are zoomers, and we do have some younger people that listen to us too, but I think most people are you know, parents that listen to us.

1:14:31 Or what does CAP mean? Cap or no cap? I'm going to give you some options. I think cap is something to do with like your salary in Major League Baseball? Okay, but go ahead. Does it mean if someone says that's cap, doesn't mean A that's a lie, B that's a trend, C that's cool, or D that's confusing. I'm going to go with that's cool because it sounds sort of like capital, like maybe it's short for. Capeople say cap or no cap, So you're wrong. Cap means lie and no cap means for real. Okay, what do you think bussin means bustin? This mac and cheese is bustin' A it's rich, B it's spicy, C it's delician, or D it's hot bustin' by the way you spelled b U s S.

1:15:22 I n Oh, what are my choices? I have no idea rich, spicy, delicious or too hot. I'm just gonna go with delicious, but I really have no idea. Correct she means really really good. Our son said, this is an older one and I shouldn't do it, but I'm just gonna do it anyway. Giacht it's g y at, she's got that giat walking past A swag, B energy, C hair or D. Backside um swag. No, it is slang for big butt, usually said or thirst. I'm saying for dead ass, you dead ass forgot your keys again? A seriously, be accidentally, C nervously or D loudly.

1:16:13 I think this one is seriously correct. Okay, that one, that's the only one I felt like I kind of might have. I am not keeping a score just for the record. If you want to keep your own score, that's good. Simpin. He's texting her fourteen times a day total, simp simp he's obsessed, he's threatening, he's detached, or he's confused threatening, No, he's obsessed. Simping means doing too much for someone who isn't reciprocating. Okay, what would we have called like he's whipped? Maybe? Yeah? Crashing out? Bro is crashing out over his breakup.

1:16:54 A taking a nap, B giving up, C going wild and ruining everything, or D posting cryptic Instagram stories. I would have said taking a nap, but that's what you know, we would have said years ago. I'm going to crash, yeah, but I'm gonna say going wild. Yeah, losing control, self distracting, usually emotionally orient cassively. I think you're gonna nail this snax RIZ. I know this one. I think you do. He doesn't look like much, but his riz is crazy. A, his jokes, be his money, see his fashion, D his charm or. Game charm because it's short for charisma. Right exactly. Yes, sending me slash I'm dead. That video is sending me I'm dead. Does it mean ay, I'm confused, B I'm laughing way too hard, See I'm offended, or D I'm out of here.

1:17:48 I'm gonna say I'm laughing way too hard. Yeah, it's the modern lol extreme laughter. You're doing great, sweetie. That as main character energy. She's walking like she's got main character energy. Is it a self centered B she's confident like the star of the show. See she's extra D. She's looking for attention. Oh boy, those all those all sound kind of similar. I mean, I I think, like being self centered, Like you're the. Star of the show, right, so you kind of you the first. The first two sound kind of similar to me. Yeah, I mean you're right, they're similar. But yeah, like she's star, the star of her show. I think you know the last one too. I think everyone knows the last one. Maybe I'm wrong, but touch grass, dude, just touch grass? Oh you don't know, Okay, I've never heard that before. A smoke weed be go outside and chill, see get back to work or d work out?

1:18:40 I guess go outside and chill. Yeah. Yeah, like if someone's you know, just kind of reeling or you know, upset, you just want to unplug and go touch grass. Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for making me feel older than I've ever felt in my life. So well, there's a couple other ones that are funny, Like you've heard people sometimes and then I will say, we're gonna have girl dinner. Do you know what that means? I just assume that meant you were going to have dinner with our doughter. Well, usually it means like like girls are I think boys do it too, but like we'll just have like a smoothie and like, I don't know, just like an easy dinner. I think a lot of times people have like cottage cheese or it's just like a really simple quick dinner. Gotcha, Well, the quiz is over. I think you did great. I think adjusted for your age, I think you got like a B plus.

1:19:29 Okay, I'll take it. Do you know what it means if someone says I ate or they ate uh not or left no crumbs that's similar. No, I don't think I know. That means you killed it, you did a really good job. Okay. I think I've heard that in sports before, so I should. I didn't know that was a Yeah. I think like if a player did really well, like I think they might say I ate. But okay, one more that I've actually added to my Okay, but I think the ones that I actually know are probably older. I'm sure, like this is probably all of these are probably like gone and I have expired. It's not cool anymore. But mid mid Yeah, that's I think that's a really good term for a lot of things. Yeah, that kind of capture is like something that's just sort.

1:20:11 Of like kind of average. It's yeah, like a movie that you kind of liked. Yeah, I like that one. You're such a good sport. I appreciate you letting me try to embarrass you all the time, but you always are up for anything. Always happy to be embarrassed. All right, before we go for real, I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who leaves us nice encouraging messages. And we just got a super sweet email from our listener Carla today that made us both smile. We read them, we appreciate them, and we're just always very overwhelmed and just grateful for all of you and your support. Please rate, review, follow and subscribe, Find us on social media, or send us an email at Lovemrykill at gmail dot com, and please consider supporting us on Patreon dot com, slash Love Mary Kill one tier five dollars a month for early ad free accent in a monthly bonus.

1:21:01 Episode, or if you want to send us a snack. Or cash cash money. Oh, just send us a snack if you want to. Yeah, I'm just kidding. We don't need your money. Send it to LMK pod po box one one one, Dexter, Michigan four eight one three zero. Until next time, don't kill your wife, and don't kill your husband,