July 21, 2025

Erin Patterson, the mushroom murderer

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In July 2023, the small, rural town of Leongatha in Victoria, Australia was thrust into the spotlight after a family lunch ended in unthinkable tragedy. Erin Patterson, a quiet, separated mother of two, prepared a homemade meal for her in-laws, but within days, three were dead and one was left clinging to life. Was it a heartbreaking accident or something far more sinister? In this episode, we discuss complicated family dynamics, growing suspicion, and lingering questions surrounding a lunch that devastated a family and shocked not just Australia, but the world.

Today's snack: Mushroom tart

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WEBVTT

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Hi.

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I'm Tina and I'm Rich. If there's one thing we've

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learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's.

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That some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary kill.

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Hey, Rich, your arms must be tired.

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My arms are so tired.

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You literally just flew in from New York City.

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I did. I got home a half hour ago, and

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it was a little bit of a bumpy trip, not

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just turbulence wise. My flight got canceled last night and

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I spent an extra night in New York City that

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I didn't plan to, so it was a little bit.

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But you're here now, and you're ready to podcast.

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I sure am, and I'm excited to hear about this case.

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My mate Dave has been asking us to do this

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case for like over a year now, I think a year. Yeah, not,

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as I said my mate, because.

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I did notice in Australia, we are going back to Australia.

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I feel like, if you are in Australia, though, you

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know everything about this case, and you might not really

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learn anything new from our episode. I don't think the

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case has caught on as much in the United States,

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so This is an Australian case that I'm telling more

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to our United States listeners. But before we get started,

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I have a joke for you. Why did the mushroom

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get invited to all the parties?

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Why?

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Because he was a fun guy to be with.

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That's a good one.

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Another thing I wanted to mention before we get into

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the case is thank you to the ten four hundred

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and sixty two people who messaged us that Michelle and

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Jason Young's dog, mister Garrison, is named for the teacher

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in South Ark. That really made us laugh because normally

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when we're podcasting, we have learned that we should google

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something rather than say, oh, gosh, I don't know, but

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I felt like it's a dog's name, Like, you know,

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how are we gonna know what this is about?

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Yeah, apparently everyone in the world watches something, everyone except that.

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Well you, I know that you used to watch it

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a little bit.

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Really, I mean I've watched I'm sure I've watched an

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episode or two here or there, but I never really

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watched it.

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That was really funny. Thank you to everyone that reached

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out to us. And we'll try not to make that

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mistake again. But I did bring you a snack today.

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Oh good, are you ready?

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I am ready. I'm really hungry, So I hope it's substantial.

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I mean, you can eat as much of it as

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you want. You know that today's case is about Aaron Patterson,

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a mushroom murderer. You might want to call her. So

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I made you. I didn't make you beef Wellington is

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that's what she made her guests. I made you a

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mushroom tart, and I promised that these that was not

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You were not excited at all about that.

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I'm not exciting.

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I think it's pretty good. I had a piece earlier.

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How do you feel about mushrooms?

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From one to ten mushrooms, I'm I'm sort of neutral

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on I don't like them. I don't think they really

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add a lot to a lot of things. But I

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don't dislike them either. They can kind of they can

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be on a pizza or whatever. It doesn't bother me.

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But I wouldn't really choose to put them on a

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pizza either.

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I love mushrooms, and I have consumed dramatically less mushrooms

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since you and I have been together, and our kids

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aren't really big mushroom fans, and mushrooms are really polarizing.

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I think mushrooms and coconut and raisins foods like that.

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Some people just you either love them or you hate them.

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Yeah.

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The recipe is from a website called The Little Sunny

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Kitchen and it's just called Mushroom Tart, and the recipe

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will be in the show notes. I'll have you try

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it right now.

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Okay, you didn't even need a whole piece of the

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mushroom tart.

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You didn't like it.

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It wasn't bad. It was not bad. I didn't love it,

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but I didn't hate it. It's kind of how I

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feel about mushrooms in general, fairly neutral. I thought it

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tasted like a pizza with a lot of mushrooms on

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it and not tomato sauce.

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I just took a piece of puff pastry, rolled it out,

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put some smoked Gouda on it, and then I sauteed

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a bunch of baby Bella mushrooms with some butter and

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some thyme, And.

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Yeah, I like the gudha flavor. That was good.

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Yeah, smoked Gouda is one of my favorite cheeses.

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Yeah.

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What would you rate the mushroom tart?

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I'm going to give it a six out of ten.

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Okay, that's not too bad. I would give it an

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eight out of ten. On July twenty ninth, twenty twenty three,

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Aaron Patterson, forty eight, a separated mother of two, prepared

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a special luncheon. It was a cold, gloomy, quiet Saturday

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afternoon and lean Gotha a rural town nestled among the

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rolling hills of Victoria, Australia. Lean Gotha is a small

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town located in South Gippsland, about one hundred and thirty

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five kilometers roughly eighty four miles southeast of Melbourne, with

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a population of about six thousand. It's a close knit,

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farming oriented community known for its rolling hills, dairy farms

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and quiet, picturesque countryside. Was the kind of day that

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begs for her comfort, food and familiar company. Inside Aaron

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Patterson's kitchen, something delicious and indulgent was coming together that

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she'd toiled over all morning. Beef Wellington tender filet wrapped

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in golden puff pastry, layered with mushroom paste and brushed

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with egg washed to a glossy finish. But Aaron put

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her own spin on the recipe by making individual portions

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instead of the traditional loaf. As she put the final

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touches on the gourmet meal she'd been planning for weeks,

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her guests arrived. The aroma from the kitchen wafted through

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the house, creating a homey, welcoming feeling. As the four

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guests sat down at the table, Aaron poured wine. The

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guests were her in laws, Don and Gail Patterson, both seventy,

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Gail's sister, Heather Wilkinson sixty six, and Heather's husband Ian

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sixty eight. One guest whose absence was notable was Simon Patterson,

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Aaron's estranged husband. She was visibly irked that he'd abruptly

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canceled the night before, after she'd carefully planned the meal

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for two weeks. Aaron set aside a plate for Simon,

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and Casey changed his mind and decided to attend. She

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was hoping he would make an appearance. It was a

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family lunch, meant to bring people back together, but also

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so Aaron could share some unfortunate medical news and get

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their support. Ian, a pastor at a local church, said

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a prayer before the meal. The wine flowed, The conversation

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stayed polite, friendly, slightly strained, perhaps, but everyone seemed to

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enjoy the meal works cut cleanly through the tender pastry,

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releasing steam, and the earthy aroma of mushrooms and beef.

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None of the guests at the table could have known

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this carefully planned meal was not meant for their sustenance

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and enjoyment, but was a calculated act of revenge to

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make them suffer, to pay for the slights and pain

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that Aaron Patterson had felt for months, even years. By midnight,

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all four guests were in their bathrooms, wrenching up the

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lunch gravely ill. Within a week, three were dead. Only

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Ian Wilkinson survived barely, and Aaron, who claimed she too

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had eaten the meal, would soon be at the center

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of a shocking and deeply unsettling mystery that would captivate

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Australia and the rest of the world. One haunting question

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was asked over and over. Was it a tragic accident

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or something far more sinister? This lunch occurred almost exactly

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two years ago, and we should mention that in Australia,

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like the end of July is kind of the peak

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of their winter. It's the peak of our summer, it's

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the peak of their winter. So having like a nice, cozy,

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home cooked meal was probably a really nice way to

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spend your Saturday afternoon.

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Yeah, it makes sense. It's kind of a heavy lunch though, right,

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but it's that typical of Australia as well.

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Do you think it's funny that you asked that? Because

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I had the same question. I reached out to one

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of our Aussy listeners, Sarah, and asked her that, and

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she said she thought because they were a church going

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family that it wouldn't be that odd. Okay, they might

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all get together on Saturday afternoon because they'd be busy

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Sunday at church.

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Gotcha.

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Late on the night before the luncheon, Simon and Aaron

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Patterson had the following text exchange.

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Sorry, I feel too uncomfortable about coming to a lunch

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with you, mom, Dad, Heather and Ian tomorrow, but I'm

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happy to talk to you about your health and implications

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of that at another time. If you'd like to discuss

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it on the phone, just let me know.

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That's really disappointing. I spend hours this week preparing lunch

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for tomorrow, which has been exhausting in light of the

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issues I'm facing. I spent a small fortune on beef

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fil a to make beef Wellington because I wanted it

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to be a special meal, as I may not be

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able to host a lunch like this again for some time.

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It's important to me that you are all there tomorrow

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and that I can have the conversation that I need

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to have. I hope that you change your mind. Your parents,

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Heather and Ian are coming at twelve thirty. I hope

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to see you there. Simon never responded to that message.

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Ann did not attend the lunch, lucky for him. On

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the day of the lunch, and the four guests arrived together.

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Gail brought an orange cake for dessert. Aaron and Simon's

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daughter son, aged nine and fourteen, were not at home

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during the meal. They'd gone to McDonald's for lunch and

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then to see a movie. The Wilkinsons had never visited

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Aaron's new house before, so she gave them a tour

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of her home and garden. She served them each an

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individual beef wellington with fresh foraged mushrooms. Before eating, they

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said a prayer led by Ian. In addition to the

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beef wellington's for each guest, Aaron made mashed potatoes, gravy,

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and green beads. Served on a gray plate. Her own

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beef Wellington was served on a smaller orange plate. Later,

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Heather dwelt on this and asked Simon is erin short

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of crockery. He admitted that she didn't have a large

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complete set. Her dishes were piecemeal. Gill had half of

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her beef Wellington, while don ate his entire portion, as

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well as the other half of Gail's. Ian and Heather

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ate their entire portion. After the indulgent meal, everyone was

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full but nibbled on the orange cake Gale had baked

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and a fruit platter Aaron put out. After lunch, Aaron

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broached the difficult conversation that had brought everyone together. She

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told her guests that she had been diagnosed with ovarian

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cancer and needed guidance on how to talk to her

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and Simon's children about her life threatening illness. The group,

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visibly concerned, encouraged her to be honest with the kids,

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and Ian led them in a prayer for her. But

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in reality, Aaron did not have cancer. She fabricated the

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diagnosis as a way to draw her in laws to

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her home, and it also explained why her children weren't

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present at the meal. As the lunch was winding down.

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Aaron's son and his friend returned from the movies. Simon

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had picked them up, but chose not to come inside,

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a detail that, while subtle, reflected the tension between him

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and Aaron at the time. His parents and his aunt

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and uncle are there, and he chose to not even

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come in and say a quick hello. He and his

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daughter returned to his house. The guest departed around two pm,

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as Ian had a three pm appointment with a parishioner.

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Within twelve hours of leaving Aaron's home, the four guests

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all became violently ill, with vomiting and diarrhea. Don vomited

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more than thirty times before he called his son. Simon

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was shocked at the state of his parents when he

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arrived and immediately called an ambulance. Then he paid a

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visit to his aunt and uncle, finding them also incredibly sick.

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He drove them to the hospital himself because an ambulance

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would have taken too long. Doctors first believed that the

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four victims had food poisoning from the beef. None of

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them had remembered the finely chopped mushrooms in the beef Wellington,

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but the next day the doctors realized that they'd fallen

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critically ill due to poisonous mushrooms. They were all in

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or near liver failure. Gail, Don, Heather and Ian were

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all placed in medically induced comas, but three of them

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died within a week of the poisoning due to multiple

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organ failure, a brutal, long suffering death. Don was given

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a liver transplant in hopes of improving his condition, but

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he continued to deteriorate after the surgery. He passed away

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on August fifth. Gale and Heather were both deemed too

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ill to undergo a liver transplant and died on August fourth.

239
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Ian was also given a liver transplant. His condition improved

240
00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:14.799
after the surgery, although his recovery was long. He spent

241
00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:18.000
seven weeks in the hospital, including three weeks in the

242
00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:21.600
intensive care unit in an induced coma at the Austin

243
00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:25.480
Hospital in Melbourne. These four people were all a little older,

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00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:28.159
but they were really good people and as far as

245
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I know, in good health, had many years to live.

246
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It's heartbreaking that their lives were ended in such a

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brutal and unkind way.

248
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Yeah, so much suffering. It's just really awful.

249
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Yeah.

250
00:12:40.679 --> 00:12:44.159
Aaron also sought medical treatment at Lean Gotha Hospital two

251
00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:47.720
days later, on Monday, July thirty. First, she complained of

252
00:12:47.759 --> 00:12:49.960
gastro intestinal issues and diarrhea.

253
00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:54.799
Something I learned while investigating this case in Australia. Here

254
00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:57.559
we would say I have the stomach flu, and Australia

255
00:12:57.600 --> 00:12:58.919
you say gastro.

256
00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:01.799
Okay, her vital signs were taken and her blood pressure

257
00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:04.360
and heart rate were found to be dangerously high, but

258
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she abruptly left the hospital, even signing a waiver that

259
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she was leaving against medical advice. She was there between

260
00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:12.559
eight o five and eight ten.

261
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Imagine going to the emergency room in the US and

262
00:13:15.759 --> 00:13:18.000
being in and out in five minutes.

263
00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:19.519
That is very hard to imagine.

264
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That.

265
00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:22.840
Actually, Doctor Webster did say that there was some sort

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of a bell that she was ringing. I think it

267
00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:27.840
was a bell that for nurse attention. She kept like

268
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ringing the bell over and over. And it was Monday morning,

269
00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:33.240
and he actually was very busy, but she was so

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00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:36.600
persistent that he went and asked if he could help her.

271
00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:41.039
Okay, after she left, Doctor Christopher Webster had an uneasy feeling.

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He had seen Gail Don Heather and Ian and knew

273
00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:46.600
how sick. They were. In fact, they were still at

274
00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:49.879
the hospital that morning awaiting transfer to a larger hospital.

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I think a couple of them may have been transferred already.

276
00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:56.080
But doctor Webster said that he believed that where he

277
00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:59.399
was talking to Aaron that she could possibly see into

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00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:02.080
one of at least one of their rooms, and he

279
00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:05.200
was struck by her not asking about their condition.

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Interesting. Doctor Webster was afraid that Aaron had also suffered

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00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:12.360
from mushroom poisoning and wanted her to return to the hospital.

282
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He attempted to call her cell phone three times and

283
00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:18.039
left her several messages. When she didn't answer, he called

284
00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:19.320
the police for assistance.

285
00:14:19.559 --> 00:14:23.759
Hello, what addressed? He had? The police? So, this is

286
00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:27.720
doctor Chris Webster calling from Lee and Gatha Hospital and

287
00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:32.559
I have a concern regarding a patient that presented here

288
00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:37.879
earlier but has left the building and is potentially exposed

289
00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:43.440
to a faithal toxin from mushroom poisoning. And I've tried

290
00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:47.120
several times to get hold of her on her mobile phone.

291
00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:50.120
So before I get all that information in what addressed?

292
00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:53.240
You need the police to attend, doctor Chris where so?

293
00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:53.600
Well?

294
00:14:53.639 --> 00:14:55.759
Should I give the hospital address or the address of

295
00:14:55.799 --> 00:14:58.399
the patient if you know where they are there adress,

296
00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:00.519
I have the address of the patients. Yeah, go ahead

297
00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:07.480
of that, okay, read Leona Leon Gather three nine fives,

298
00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:10.440
Thank you, so eighty four gifts in street Lean Gather, Victoria.

299
00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:13.039
The nearest inter section is Worthy Street. Is that correct?

300
00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:17.279
I'd have to get good Walt maps up, but yes,

301
00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:19.480
I would say that sounds right. That sounds like a

302
00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:20.440
street and Lean gas.

303
00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:21.679
What's her name?

304
00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:26.039
So? The last name is Patterson p A T T

305
00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:30.279
E R S O M. First name Aaron E R

306
00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:33.399
I M. Do you have a dot of birth thirt

307
00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:38.240
yes of September nineteen seventy four. When did she present

308
00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:51.639
at hospital at eight five today? Yeah? Mushroom poisoning, you said, yeah.

309
00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:54.080
So there were five people that ate a meal on

310
00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:58.399
Saturday and two of them are in intensive care at

311
00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:02.200
dan in l Hospital to have just been transferred from

312
00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:06.039
Lean at the hospital to danding On Hospital, and Aaron

313
00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:11.000
presented this morning with symptoms of poisoning. Be with me

314
00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:25.360
and what happened when she presented? She's got the move. No,

315
00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:30.639
there was time for the nurse to begin observations and

316
00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:34.120
I was managing the other critically unwell patient. So I

317
00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:37.679
had a brief chatter about where the mushrooms were obtained.

318
00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:44.320
And after that, while I was attending the other patients,

319
00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:47.320
the nurse informed me that she had discharged herself against

320
00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:51.200
medical device. So I don't know exactly. Oh, we've got

321
00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:57.039
a form here, handles tell me what time she left. No,

322
00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:04.440
it doesn't have a time. She lift it for five minutes.

323
00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:09.519
I saw footage from video surveillance and Aarin can be

324
00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:12.519
seen wearing white pants. A lot of people have talked

325
00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:17.319
about Aaron wearing white pants when she is having explosive

326
00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:20.599
diarrhea and how most people would not choose to wear

327
00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:21.000
white fit.

328
00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:23.640
Yeah, probably not. Also it's the middle of winter too,

329
00:17:23.720 --> 00:17:25.200
and I know that's not well.

330
00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:28.160
They were kind of cream colored, I think, but yeah, good,

331
00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:30.920
good point. I know you're like the fashion exactly.

332
00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:34.119
When police arrived at Aaron's home, she didn't appear.

333
00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:34.359
To be there.

334
00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:37.680
However, they retrieved scraps of the beef Wellington from her

335
00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:40.559
garbage and delivered them to the hospital shortly after ten

336
00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:44.319
am for testing. When officers called Aaron on her cell phone,

337
00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:47.640
she was cooperative and provided them with the security code

338
00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:51.319
to open the gate. Erin voluntarily returned to the hospital

339
00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:54.000
an hour and thirty eight minutes after her initial visit,

340
00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:57.039
where she was kept for observation for twenty four hours.

341
00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:00.599
The doctor treating her said that she was quote moderately

342
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:04.680
dehydrated and appeared to have a gastrointestinal type illness, but

343
00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:08.839
had no clinical or biochemical evidence of amanita or mushroom

344
00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:14.160
poisoning or other toxicological substance ingestion. Her liver function was normal.

345
00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:18.079
The best course of treatment for mushroom poisoning is to

346
00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:21.400
treat the liver or to block the enzymes from entering

347
00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:24.400
the liver. With the other patients, they were all in

348
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:27.680
liver failure and so they thought, you know, Aaron was

349
00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:31.400
feeling okay, we should give her these liver blocking enzymes

350
00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:33.039
so it doesn't get to her liver.

351
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:35.720
So that might have been why her liver functions were normal.

352
00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:42.000
Well, probably not, actually, because I typically you are exhibiting

353
00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:46.200
symptoms like twelve hours after you ingest the mushrooms, Okay,

354
00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:49.079
So the fact that it was two days later, she

355
00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:52.160
probably was in the clear, right, But they were being

356
00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:55.880
abundantly cautious because of the severity of the other four

357
00:18:56.200 --> 00:18:57.240
people's illness.

358
00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:00.559
Sure the hospital insisted that Aaron's children and also be

359
00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:05.119
admitted for observation, despite not displaying any symptoms. Aaron had

360
00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:08.240
served them the leftover beef Wellington, but had scraped off

361
00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:11.480
the mushrooms. She was adamant that they hadn't eaten any

362
00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:14.039
of the mushrooms and didn't want them taken out of school,

363
00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:17.160
but Simon brought them to the hospital. Aaron and the

364
00:19:17.240 --> 00:19:20.440
children were released the following day. None of them had

365
00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:24.279
the mushroom tocsin in their bloodstreams. Aaron, who had experienced

366
00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:27.519
issues with her potassium levels previously in her life, had

367
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:31.359
normal potassium levels, which, if she had had explosive diarrhea

368
00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:34.039
as she had reported, would be a little surprising.

369
00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:39.200
My Cologists or mushroom experts have said that the beef

370
00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:41.799
Wellington that Aaron gave her kids, even if she had

371
00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:45.559
scraped off the pastry and the mushrooms, the mushroom toxins

372
00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:48.200
probably still would have leached into the beef.

373
00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:50.240
Yeah. I would think so too.

374
00:19:50.359 --> 00:19:50.839
Yeah.

375
00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:53.839
Doctor Webster later told the Harold's son that he knew

376
00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:57.079
Aarin was a calculated murderer when she revealed to him

377
00:19:57.079 --> 00:19:59.960
that she had purchased the mushrooms for the dinner from Woolworth,

378
00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.720
her local market. Quote. If she said she picked the mushrooms,

379
00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:05.599
it would have been a very different mindset for me,

380
00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:08.480
because there would have been an instant assumption it was

381
00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:11.480
all a tragic accident. But once she said that answer,

382
00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.799
my thoughts were, holy fucking shit, you fucking did it,

383
00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:18.240
you crazy bitch, You poison them all. He called Aaron

384
00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:23.000
a quote disturbed, sociopathic nutbag. She wasn't freaking out about

385
00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:26.039
the safety of her children. Looking into her eyes, I thought,

386
00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:28.480
I don't know what planet you're on, but you're not

387
00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:31.680
on Earth. Here, he is describing what it felt like

388
00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:32.759
to be in her presence.

389
00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:38.240
There is an eerie sort of disquiet that you have

390
00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:43.599
in her presence, But it's not the typical sort of

391
00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:50.880
scary ogre type fee that you have. It's more visceral

392
00:20:50.920 --> 00:20:57.079
than that. It's sort of her oddness gets under your skin,

393
00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:03.160
and penetratic, brian and just she's not it's not pleasant

394
00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:03.960
to be around her.

395
00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:08.160
The doctor Webster doesn't shy away from speaking his mind

396
00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:11.640
or using colorful language. We'll talk about that a little

397
00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:12.400
bit more later.

398
00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:14.640
We'll be back after a break.

399
00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:25.279
Long before the headlines of her deadly beef Wellington made

400
00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:29.240
international news. Aaron Trudy's Scudder, was a bright young woman

401
00:21:29.319 --> 00:21:33.359
growing up in Melbourne's southeastern suburbs. Born in nineteen seventy

402
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:36.200
four to a businessman father and a mother who was

403
00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:40.880
a children's literature professor at Monash University, Aaron was raised

404
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:45.279
in glen Waverley in a family that valued education, ideas

405
00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:48.960
and intellect. Her sister Kinwyn would go on to become

406
00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:53.200
a scientist. Aaron, too, was curious and ambitious. She started

407
00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:56.519
out studying science at the University of Melbourne, then pivoted

408
00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:00.720
to accounting before becoming qualified as an air traffic controller

409
00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:04.039
in two thousand and one. Aaron met Simon Patterson in

410
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:07.400
two thousand and four while working for Monash City Council.

411
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:12.039
Aaron was a representative for the RSPCA or Royal Society

412
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:15.759
for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. Simon worked as

413
00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:19.640
a civil engineer. They were friends first, often spending time

414
00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:22.680
together in a larger group, going camping and taking trips

415
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:25.680
together before they became a couple in two thousand and five,

416
00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:29.240
engaged a year later, and married in two thousand and seven,

417
00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:32.240
when Erin was thirty three. They shared a love of

418
00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:35.359
travel and moved across the country, living for a time

419
00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:39.400
in York and Pemberton, small towns in western Australia, where

420
00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:43.039
Aaron even ran a second hand bookstore, but eventually they

421
00:22:43.079 --> 00:22:47.680
returned to Victoria, settling in South Gippsland near Simon's family.

422
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:51.920
Erin became active in the community, editing a local church newsletter,

423
00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:55.839
raising their two children, and in quieter moments, indulging in

424
00:22:55.880 --> 00:23:00.519
her growing interest in true crime. We'll have to combat that.

425
00:23:01.160 --> 00:23:05.000
Aaron and Simon Patterson's marriage experienced frequent ups and downs,

426
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:10.000
including several separations between twenty nine and twenty fourteen, before

427
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:14.240
they permanently separated in twenty fifteen. Their first separation occurred

428
00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:17.200
shortly after the birth of their first child, during a

429
00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:21.440
time when Aaron was struggling with postpartum depression. Religion often

430
00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:25.200
played a central role in their marital challenges. Simon was

431
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:29.759
a committed Christian, deeply involved in his Baptist church, particularly

432
00:23:29.799 --> 00:23:32.960
the one where his uncle Ian served as pastor. Aaron,

433
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:37.240
on the other hand, identified as a fundamentalist atheist before

434
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:38.000
their marriage.

435
00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:41.759
What is a fundamentalist atheist? Hey, well it quick Google

436
00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:44.440
tells me what I probably should have known from the beginning,

437
00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:48.160
but it's basically an atheist who is very strident in

438
00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:51.319
their views, like on, intolerant of anything else.

439
00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:54.640
Well Erin did become a Christian after they wed, but

440
00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:57.680
there are signs that the shift in her belief may

441
00:23:57.720 --> 00:24:01.839
not have fully taken root their differences and eventual separation,

442
00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:05.880
Aaron and Simon remained on amicable terms. They co parented

443
00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:09.680
their two children, spent holidays together, attended church as a family,

444
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:13.039
and even went on trips together. The lunch where Aaron

445
00:24:13.160 --> 00:24:17.240
served the beef Wellington allegedly containing death cap mushrooms, was

446
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:19.839
not the first time she is accused of trying to

447
00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:25.480
harm Simon. Prosecutors pointed to three earlier incidents in November

448
00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:29.160
twenty twenty one, May twenty twenty two, and September twenty

449
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:33.000
twenty two. During the May twenty twenty two episode, Simon

450
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:36.720
was hospitalized with serious gut problems and spent twenty one

451
00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:39.559
days in intensive care. Boy, I wish I had more

452
00:24:39.559 --> 00:24:42.319
information about this, but I couldn't find any more about it.

453
00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:46.319
But very interesting. Yeah, and I can't blame Simon for

454
00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:48.759
not going to the lunch that Erin.

455
00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:51.240
No, I wish he would have warned his family members

456
00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:52.079
not to go, and I.

457
00:24:52.119 --> 00:24:55.559
Think he must have felt that they were safe if

458
00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:59.279
he wasn't there. Yeah, Aaron had inherited several millions of

459
00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:02.119
dollars from her her grandmother and later from her mother.

460
00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:05.720
Financially comfortable, she didn't really need to work. She was

461
00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:08.720
also known to be generous with her money, reportedly loading

462
00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:11.839
hundreds of thousands of dollars to Simon's brother and sister

463
00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:15.759
so they could build their own homes. After separating from Simon,

464
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:20.279
Aaron Patterson appeared to lead a quiet and increasingly isolated

465
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:23.440
life in her rual leand Gatha home. Beneath the surface,

466
00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:26.960
though she carried deep emotional wounds, some dating back to

467
00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:30.960
her childhood. In messages posted to Facebook, Erin described her

468
00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:35.720
upbringing lacking warmth and affection. Quote, we had a horrible upbringing.

469
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:39.000
Mom was essentially a cold robot. It was like being

470
00:25:39.079 --> 00:25:42.079
brought up in a Russian orphanage where they don't touch

471
00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:45.039
the babies. Dad wanted to be warm and loving to us,

472
00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:47.799
but Mom wouldn't let him because it would spoil us,

473
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:51.279
so he did as he was told. Erin's main social

474
00:25:51.319 --> 00:25:54.119
outlet was a True Crime Facebook group, where some of

475
00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:58.240
her private messages revealed rising resentment toward the Patterson family.

476
00:25:58.519 --> 00:26:02.119
In December twenty twenty two, Aaron expressed frustration over her

477
00:26:02.119 --> 00:26:06.839
in laws reluctance to support her during her separation from Simon, quote,

478
00:26:06.920 --> 00:26:09.119
I'm sick of this shit. I want nothing to do

479
00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:11.359
with them. I thought his parents would want him to

480
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:13.920
do the right thing, but it seems they're concern about

481
00:26:13.960 --> 00:26:16.759
not wanting to feel uncomfortable and not wanting to get

482
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:20.200
involved in their son's personal manners or over writing that.

483
00:26:20.519 --> 00:26:24.400
So fuck them. In another message, she added, this family,

484
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:25.759
I swear to fucking God.

485
00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:29.279
So she's making these posts in a true crime Facebook group.

486
00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:32.279
I think she just became like very friendly with some

487
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:35.359
of them, and she was just venting her frustrations. But

488
00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:38.720
when you're married in your forties with kids, should your

489
00:26:38.759 --> 00:26:41.039
parents be involved in your marriage?

490
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:42.119
I would hope not.

491
00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:46.519
Later, Aaron expressed regret over the angry messages that she

492
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:49.039
had sent, saying that she loved her in laws and

493
00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:51.799
that they had always treated her like a daughter. In fact,

494
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:55.720
she had frequent and friendly contact with Gail, often exchanging

495
00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:59.759
friendly and loving messages and sometimes parenting advice on Mother's

496
00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:02.480
Day in twenty twenty three, just two months before the

497
00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:06.200
fatal lunch, Aaron sent Gail a warm text message, Happy

498
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:08.880
Mother's Day. You're the best mother in law I could

499
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:13.799
ask for. But her relationship with Simon continued to deteriorate.

500
00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:16.640
When he filed his taxes as a separated person in

501
00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:20.720
twenty twenty two, it altered Aaron's own tax filing status,

502
00:27:20.799 --> 00:27:24.039
costing her a substantial exemption that she had relied on.

503
00:27:24.519 --> 00:27:27.960
In response, she demanded that Simon begin paying child support

504
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:31.759
and contribute to school fees. They quarreled over their custody

505
00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:35.279
and financial agreements. Erin no longer allowed the children to

506
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:37.920
spend the night at Simon's house because it was messy

507
00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:41.319
and chaotic. In text to friends, she referred to him

508
00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:44.000
as a deadbeat. I'm not sure if this is accurate,

509
00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:46.759
but I read that his child support payment was thirty

510
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:51.079
eight dollars a month, which seems really really small. Yeah,

511
00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:53.440
unless it was a week, but even week, that seems

512
00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:54.079
really small.

513
00:27:54.119 --> 00:27:57.079
And that's Australian dollars. But I think Australian dollars are

514
00:27:57.119 --> 00:27:58.200
not dramatically different.

515
00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:01.720
Yeah, yeah, I think ar was comfortable. I'm not sure

516
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:04.160
if she was well lost. So maybe the payment was

517
00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:06.279
so low because she didn't really need the money.

518
00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:08.440
Well, yeah, you said she had inherited quite a bit

519
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:09.480
of money, right, Well.

520
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:12.079
She had built a house in the last year year

521
00:28:12.200 --> 00:28:14.400
or so before, like in twenty twenty two. Maybe she

522
00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:17.839
built a new house and she was pretty generous. I'm

523
00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:19.319
not sure how much of that money she.

524
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:20.440
Had left, gotcha.

525
00:28:20.680 --> 00:28:25.880
Tensions escalated, Erin began sending aggressive text messages to Simon's parents,

526
00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:29.160
Don and Gail, who were reportedly hurt and confused by

527
00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:32.799
the tone and intensity of her messages. Erin was also

528
00:28:32.920 --> 00:28:36.319
deeply affected by what she perceived is being excluded from

529
00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:40.119
Patterson family events. One moment that especially stung was not

530
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:43.799
being invited to Gail's seventieth birthday party. Her hurt and

531
00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:47.039
anger were evident in a series of text messages sent

532
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:50.480
at the time. Seems like my invite tomorrow is a

533
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:53.319
bit of an afterthought, and not even from your parents,

534
00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:55.960
so I might pass. Thanks. What I reckon is that

535
00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:58.839
everybody forgot to invite me to this. I feel very

536
00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:03.640
hurt about that. Your response is to say, I'm being ridiculous.

537
00:29:02.839 --> 00:29:05.559
Well, you can believe whatever you feel like. But frankly,

538
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:07.799
you're as far off the mark as you possibly could

539
00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:09.839
be on this. I know they would love you to

540
00:29:09.880 --> 00:29:12.480
be there. They've been talking about this and losing sleep

541
00:29:12.519 --> 00:29:13.440
over it for weeks.

542
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:16.759
Aaron went to the party with her children, but apparently

543
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:20.240
an argument broke out between her and Simon. After the event,

544
00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:24.559
she sent another text apologizing I was feeling very heard

545
00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:28.000
and lashed out. It's no excuse. I'd like to not

546
00:29:28.119 --> 00:29:31.000
do that again. That sounds like a text message I

547
00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:35.039
feel like sending anytime we have a social outing. But

548
00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:37.279
doesn't Simon come off as unflappable?

549
00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:38.559
Yeah, he really does.

550
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:38.839
Yeah.

551
00:29:38.839 --> 00:29:41.960
I think you and Simon are probably quite similar. Despite

552
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:44.640
the turmoil in her life, Aaron made plans in twenty

553
00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:48.319
twenty two to enroll in a midwifery program, but delayed

554
00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:51.599
her studies when her daughter required additional support at home.

555
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:55.440
There are over five thousand varieties of mushrooms, and about

556
00:29:55.480 --> 00:29:59.279
fifty of them are poisonous. Death cap mushrooms or Amanita

557
00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:03.039
filoid's and their relatives are among the most poisonous mushrooms

558
00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:05.920
in the world and are responsible for the vast majority

559
00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:09.440
of fatal mushroom poisonings. They have a smooth, pale green

560
00:30:09.559 --> 00:30:12.960
or yellowish cap, white gills, and a white stem with

561
00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:15.960
a cup like structure at the base, and typically measure

562
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:19.240
between four and sixteen centimeters or one and a half

563
00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:23.319
to six inches in diameter. Death caps contain potent toxins

564
00:30:23.319 --> 00:30:26.960
called amatoxins, which are deadly even in very small amounts,

565
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:30.880
and are not destroyed by cooking, freezing, or drying. Just

566
00:30:31.000 --> 00:30:34.440
one mushroom can be fatal to an adult. Symptoms typically

567
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:37.680
appear six to twelve hours after ingestion, and may include

568
00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:42.359
severe vomiting, diarrhea, and abdominal pain, followed by a deceptive

569
00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:46.039
period of improvement before liver and kidney failure sets in.

570
00:30:46.599 --> 00:30:51.240
Without prompt and aggressive treatment, including possible liver transplantation, death

571
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:54.759
can occur within days. Native to Europe, death caps are

572
00:30:54.759 --> 00:30:58.359
now found across North America, Australia and other parts of

573
00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:02.720
the world, often growing oak, pine, or chestnut trees. They're

574
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:07.319
especially dangerous because they closely resemble several edible mushrooms, making

575
00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:11.720
accidental ingestion tragically common. There's no antidote for death cap.

576
00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:15.359
Mushroom poisoning experts think that aaron must have put at

577
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:18.400
least ten mushrooms in the beef wellington to cause such

578
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:21.880
serious illness and death. There is a new potential treatment

579
00:31:21.880 --> 00:31:25.119
for mushroom poisoning, an extract from a milk thistle plant

580
00:31:25.240 --> 00:31:29.119
called syllabinin. It's not yet FDA approved, but has helped

581
00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:32.079
between thirty to fifty percent of patients, but it needs

582
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:34.720
to be delivered quickly to counter the effects of toxins

583
00:31:34.759 --> 00:31:37.519
on the liver. But mushrooms aren't all bad. They are

584
00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:41.160
a low calorie, nutrient rich food that may support longevity

585
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:45.400
and overall health. They're packed with bee vitamins and antioxidants,

586
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:47.759
and are one of the few plant based sources of

587
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:53.079
vitamin D. These compounds help combat oxidative stress, reduce inflammation,

588
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:56.160
and support immune function, all of which are key to

589
00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:00.759
healthy aging. Some varieties, like chitaki and lions main have

590
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:04.680
been linked to benefits like improved heart health, better cognitive function,

591
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:08.359
and a lower risk of certain cancers. Including mushrooms in

592
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:11.480
a balanced diet may contribute to a longer, healthier life.

593
00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:13.759
Is this your way of trying to convince me to

594
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:15.960
like mushrooms more than I do?

595
00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:19.200
I sometimes take a mushroom supplement, I mix it into

596
00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:22.720
my tea. It's most to help concentration and focus, and

597
00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:24.039
I really do think it works.

598
00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:28.440
The commercial mushroom industry is highly regulated, ensuring that Storrebaugh

599
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:32.559
varieties are safe to eat. However, foraging for wild mushrooms

600
00:32:32.599 --> 00:32:37.519
carries significant risks. In countries like Switzerland, mushroom inspection stations

601
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:41.200
are available where foragers can have their fines evaluated by

602
00:32:41.240 --> 00:32:45.000
experts before consuming them, but budget cuts have led to

603
00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:48.920
fewer inspection centers, resulting in more poisonings. One of the

604
00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:52.480
challenges is that toxic mushrooms can change in appearance throughout

605
00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:56.359
their life cycle, making it difficult even for experienced foragers

606
00:32:56.400 --> 00:32:59.720
and even mycologists to tell the difference between safe and

607
00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:05.279
porous varieties. While identification apps are available, they aren't always reliable.

608
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:08.559
The same species of mushroom can look quite different depending

609
00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:12.519
on its age, the soil it grows in, and environmental conditions.

610
00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:15.240
I know here in Michigan people really love to go

611
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:17.079
hunting for morel mushrooms, right.

612
00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:18.079
Yeah.

613
00:33:18.200 --> 00:33:20.799
Since twenty twenty, there has been an uptick of about

614
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:24.319
twenty percent in mushroom related illnesses and deaths. As foraging

615
00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:28.000
has become a popular hobby, many thousands of people become

616
00:33:28.039 --> 00:33:31.880
ill each year from eating inedible mushrooms, and dozens die.

617
00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:33.960
I just want to reiterate here that mushrooms that you

618
00:33:34.039 --> 00:33:36.799
buy in your supermarket are very safe. They are grown

619
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:40.519
for consumers, right, and there's no question that they are safe.

620
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:43.039
But when I was making the mushroom tart, I used

621
00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:46.359
baby Bella mushrooms and mushrooms like you're not supposed to

622
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:49.000
put them in water. You're just supposed to, like, you know,

623
00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:51.160
rub them with a cloth to get the dirt off, okay,

624
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:54.440
And these were particularly dirty and kind of gross.

625
00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:56.519
Interesting, And I think.

626
00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:58.400
I had it In high school and college I had

627
00:33:58.519 --> 00:34:03.559
microbiology and we studied fungi, and for a few years

628
00:34:03.799 --> 00:34:07.200
I didn't eat mushrooms because funga its fung guy is

629
00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:07.799
it's weird.

630
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:09.599
It's a weird life form, isn't it.

631
00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:13.280
I've heard that there's new varieties of funguy that are

632
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:15.920
emerging that might be life threatening. No, I really don't

633
00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:17.880
have any or either that.

634
00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:18.960
Okay, yep.

635
00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:21.360
It's just odd how they can just pop up out

636
00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:21.840
of nowhere.

637
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:24.639
Yeah, it really is. Looking for a new hobby. During

638
00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:28.440
the twenty twenty COVID pandemic, Aaron began foraging for mushrooms

639
00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:31.800
in the Krumborough Botanic Gardens near her home and in

640
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:35.480
her backyard. In April twenty twenty three, the Victoria Department

641
00:34:35.480 --> 00:34:38.400
of Health issued a public warning that death cap mushrooms

642
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:41.519
were growing in the region. The deadly mushrooms were spotted

643
00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:44.639
a short drive from Aaron's home in rural Victoria. On

644
00:34:44.679 --> 00:34:48.639
a website I Naturalist, hobbyist foragers posted about the location

645
00:34:48.719 --> 00:34:51.960
of mushrooms they found in the wild, cautioning others to

646
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:55.159
steer clear of the deadly fung guy. One user gave

647
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:58.239
the exact location of the death cap mushrooms they'd spotted,

648
00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:03.480
giving precise latitude longitude measurements. Aaron's computer history showed that

649
00:35:03.559 --> 00:35:07.039
she visited the Eye Naturalist website at least once. It

650
00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:10.280
was a town called Locke in the Gippsland region. It

651
00:35:10.360 --> 00:35:12.480
was the first time the death cap mushrooms had been

652
00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:15.159
spotted there, at least according to the website.

653
00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:19.280
When law enforcement dug into Aarin's phone and electronic devices,

654
00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:22.679
her location revealed that she was near the area where

655
00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:26.039
the death cap mushrooms grew. In April and May twenty

656
00:35:26.079 --> 00:35:29.199
twenty three, she'd spent about twenty five minutes there, just

657
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:32.559
long enough to find and pick the mushrooms. On April

658
00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:35.400
twenty eighth, twenty twenty three, the same day she was

659
00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:39.039
near one of the Death Cap mushroom areas, she purchased

660
00:35:39.159 --> 00:35:43.840
a food dehydrator. Investigators believed that Aarin has multiple phones,

661
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:47.760
although she only turned over one. The iPhone she relinquished

662
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:51.800
to police had been reset to factory settings four times

663
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:56.400
on February twelfth and August second, fifth, and sixth. The

664
00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:59.760
last reset was done remotely when the phone was all

665
00:35:59.800 --> 00:36:03.000
ready in the hands of law enforcement. That's a very

666
00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:04.559
brazen activity, isn't it.

667
00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:06.440
Yeah, it is. I didn't even know you could do that.

668
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:10.039
In surveillance camera footage, Aaron is seen with a pink

669
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:13.920
Samsung phone that has never been recovered. It seemed to

670
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:17.599
be her primary phone between February and August twenty twenty three.

671
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:20.679
Aaron claimed that she purchased the mushrooms from a local

672
00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:24.320
market and adamantly denied the notion that she'd foraged the

673
00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:27.840
Death Cap mushrooms. She told investigators that she'd purchase some

674
00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:31.599
of the mushrooms in powdered form from an Asian grocery store,

675
00:36:31.719 --> 00:36:35.119
but she couldn't recall which Asian grocery store or produce

676
00:36:35.159 --> 00:36:39.559
a receipt. Investigators visited all of the possible locations but

677
00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:43.159
couldn't find the packaging that Aaron had described, So she

678
00:36:43.239 --> 00:36:45.679
sent them on this wild goose chase. And it's kind

679
00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:48.400
of crazy to me that she couldn't say, oh, yeah,

680
00:36:48.400 --> 00:36:50.800
I got I got the mushrooms from the store on

681
00:36:51.079 --> 00:36:53.599
first in Maine or something. That doesn't like she had

682
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:57.199
went to so many different Asian food markets that you know,

683
00:36:57.280 --> 00:36:58.320
she couldn't pinpoint it.

684
00:36:58.440 --> 00:36:59.400
Yeah, that doesn't add up.

685
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:02.800
Bank records didn't reveal any activity at such a store.

686
00:37:03.079 --> 00:37:06.199
She claimed she must have paid cash. Aaron purchased a

687
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:10.280
mixture of wild mushrooms from a local Woolworth's market, including

688
00:37:10.360 --> 00:37:14.239
a blend of chataki, anaki and porcini. They smelled pungent,

689
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:18.159
She claimed. She mixed those mushrooms with some other mushrooms

690
00:37:18.199 --> 00:37:22.760
that she had previously dehydrated. On August second, twenty twenty three,

691
00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:26.320
after leaving the hospital, she brought the food dehydrator to

692
00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:29.880
a recycling center or as they'd stay in Australia, a

693
00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:33.039
tip tip. She'd had a run in with Simon at

694
00:37:33.039 --> 00:37:35.320
the hospital when his parents were still in the hospital,

695
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:37.840
and he'd asked her if she'd used at a hydrator

696
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:41.400
on the mushrooms that had killed his family members. Police

697
00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:44.079
went to the tip and were able to recover the

698
00:37:44.119 --> 00:37:47.679
food dehydrator, and they found Aaron's fingerprints on the unit

699
00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:50.719
as well as deathcap mushroom residue inside.

700
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:52.440
That's pretty amazing they were able to find it.

701
00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:55.559
Yeah. In a search of Aaron's home on August fifth,

702
00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:58.679
police found a manual for the dehydrator in her kitchen.

703
00:37:59.039 --> 00:38:01.920
A review of surveyor Allen's video found clear images of

704
00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:04.920
her dropping it off. Unaware of the evidence against her,

705
00:38:05.239 --> 00:38:08.679
she told police that she'd never owned a dehydrator. A

706
00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:12.719
journalist John Ferguson, who interviewed Aaron, called her cold, mean,

707
00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:16.119
and vicious. The day after the lunch, Aaron and her

708
00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:19.559
children skipped church because she wasn't feeling well. Her son

709
00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:22.599
had a flying lesson about ninety minutes from their home

710
00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:25.679
that afternoon. He told his mom that they could skip it,

711
00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:29.480
but they went anyway. Aaron was seen on surveillance footage

712
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:32.840
entering a gas station and heading to the restroom, again

713
00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:37.320
wearing the white pants. She was only inside for nine seconds.

714
00:38:37.639 --> 00:38:40.840
She then purchased a sour confectionery, a ham, cheese and

715
00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:44.280
tomato sandwich, and a sweet chilly chicken rut.

716
00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:45.760
I have no idea what that is.

717
00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:47.880
I really don't know what it is either. I think

718
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:49.920
it might just be like a piece of chicken that

719
00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:53.480
is seasoned really well. Okay, I mentioned these things because

720
00:38:53.639 --> 00:38:55.840
none of these things seemed like what you should be

721
00:38:55.880 --> 00:38:57.840
eating when you're having an upset.

722
00:38:57.880 --> 00:38:58.159
Stumm.

723
00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:01.320
No, but her son was with her, so maybe she

724
00:39:01.400 --> 00:39:03.519
was buying these snacks from her kid. Okay, But we

725
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:05.800
mentioned this just because you know, she is supposed to

726
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:07.840
not be feeling well, and she was only in the

727
00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:10.559
restroom for nine seconds, and she went on a ninety

728
00:39:10.599 --> 00:39:13.599
minute drive to take her son to this flying lesson.

729
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:15.760
Yeah, and so not something you would do if you

730
00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:19.239
had serious gastro intestinal issues exactly.

731
00:39:19.639 --> 00:39:22.000
But later she claimed that she had to stop on

732
00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:25.159
the side of the road to relieve herself and only

733
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:29.159
stopped at the gas station to dispose of soiled tissues.

734
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:31.559
Okay, thanks for putting that in my head.

735
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:36.440
During a police interrogation, Aaron denied intentionally poisoning her in laws.

736
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:40.360
She said quote. My parents are both gone, my grandparents

737
00:39:40.400 --> 00:39:43.119
are all gone. They're the only family that I've got.

738
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:46.119
I love them a lot. Here's Aaron talking to the

739
00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:49.400
media about her in laws. It's a tragedy with Keppin.

740
00:39:50.960 --> 00:39:52.679
Can you tell us about the meal that you put.

741
00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:59.159
I've the devastated by what's happened by the laws of.

742
00:40:01.079 --> 00:40:06.599
Tony is still in hospogles an and and Kyle I

743
00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:08.400
was some of the best people that I've ever been.

744
00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:12.800
The media was relentless in their pursuit of Aaron, and

745
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:16.000
it was starting to bother her. Aaron, Kelly, you goings

746
00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:18.280
and like I'm going rosting.

747
00:40:18.360 --> 00:40:23.440
We got healthy. I am adding that to my vocabulary.

748
00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:25.480
Next time you ask me how I'm doing or how

749
00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:28.679
I'm going, I'm gonna say I'm going ship house.

750
00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:32.920
I did google it just to make sure that the

751
00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:36.519
definition of that was what you're thinking is, yeah, okay,

752
00:40:36.599 --> 00:40:37.239
it's pretty clear.

753
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:37.440
Yeah.

754
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:40.239
I think it's a good word. We'll be back after

755
00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:40.760
a break.

756
00:40:48.679 --> 00:40:52.079
Sensing an impending arrest, on November one, twenty twenty three,

757
00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:54.559
Aaron had a party at her house with her children

758
00:40:54.639 --> 00:40:57.599
and her closest friends. She was arrested the next day

759
00:40:57.639 --> 00:41:00.719
and charged with three counts of murder and five counts

760
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:04.280
of attempted murder. She pleaded not guilty. While in jail,

761
00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:07.360
she was mostly kept in solitary confinement after a fellow

762
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:10.599
inmate accused her of tampering with her food. The inmate

763
00:41:10.760 --> 00:41:13.079
felt ill after she cooked a meal for her, and

764
00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:15.880
Erin was banned from the prison kitchen. I would have

765
00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:18.519
thought Aaron would have been banned from the prison kitchen

766
00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:22.840
to begin with, but okay. While Erin remained incarcerated after

767
00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:26.199
her arrest, her home had been burglarized several times, with

768
00:41:26.280 --> 00:41:30.760
thieves taking TVs, a vacuum, surveillance cameras, and even a car.

769
00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:34.239
The trial of Aaron Patterson gripped the nation of Australia.

770
00:41:34.679 --> 00:41:38.480
Fifty witnesses testified over a ten week period. The trial

771
00:41:38.519 --> 00:41:41.320
took place in Morwell, about an hour from Aaron's home

772
00:41:41.360 --> 00:41:44.679
in lean Gatha. In Australia, no cameras are allowed in

773
00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:48.360
the court rooms. The public depended on journalists and podcasters

774
00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:50.880
for details of the trial day to day. On the

775
00:41:50.920 --> 00:41:53.440
eve of the trial, the attempted murder charge for Simon

776
00:41:53.639 --> 00:41:58.039
was dismissed. Prosecutor Nannette Rodgers sc attempted to prove that

777
00:41:58.119 --> 00:42:02.239
Aarin set out on four calculat deceptions quote. The first

778
00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:05.320
deception was the fabricated cancer claim she used as a

779
00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:09.079
pretense for the lunch invitation. The second deception was the

780
00:42:09.159 --> 00:42:12.360
lethal doses of poison the accused secreted in the home

781
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:16.039
cooked beef Wellington's. The third deception was her attempts to

782
00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:19.719
make it seem that she also suffered death cap mushroom poisoning,

783
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:23.199
and the fourth deception the sustained cover up she embarked

784
00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:26.800
upon to conceal the truth. Simon was the first witness.

785
00:42:27.159 --> 00:42:30.360
He became emotional many times during his testimony when talking

786
00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:33.400
about his parents and the early days of his relationship

787
00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:36.519
with Aarin. He recalled that she had a good relationship

788
00:42:36.559 --> 00:42:39.760
with his parents quote. She especially got on with Dad.

789
00:42:40.039 --> 00:42:42.639
They shared a love of knowledge and learning. I think

790
00:42:42.679 --> 00:42:45.519
she loved his gentle nature. Although at the time of

791
00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:48.800
the luncheon their relationship was very strained, he hadn't given

792
00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:51.639
up on the thought of them reconciling. He said it

793
00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:53.880
was rare for Aaron to host people in her home,

794
00:42:54.039 --> 00:42:56.800
especially a group of that size. He talked about the

795
00:42:56.800 --> 00:43:00.760
breakdown in their communication in December twenty twenty two, he said,

796
00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:04.440
quote from my point of view, Aaron was being extremely aggressive.

797
00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:08.800
Doctor Christopher Webber, who treated Erin in the hospital, testified

798
00:43:08.840 --> 00:43:11.639
that he believed she was faking her symptoms and called

799
00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:14.880
her a callous, calculated killer. He said he knew she

800
00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:17.400
was lying when she said she'd purchased the mushrooms from

801
00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:20.920
a local grocer. Ian Wilkinson, a local pastor and the

802
00:43:20.920 --> 00:43:24.000
sole survivor of the luncheon, testified at the trial. He

803
00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:25.840
stood while giving his testimony.

804
00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:28.960
I thought it was very brave of Ian to testify.

805
00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:31.840
He really had been through a lot. He lost his

806
00:43:31.960 --> 00:43:35.960
wife and two very beloved family members, and he almost

807
00:43:35.960 --> 00:43:38.840
died himself. I think his recovery was very long. I

808
00:43:38.920 --> 00:43:42.159
mean he was almost seventy having a liver transplant I'm

809
00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:44.719
sure is no picnic. And the fact that he stood

810
00:43:44.840 --> 00:43:48.360
during his testimony when I think most people in Australia

811
00:43:48.559 --> 00:43:52.639
stand when they're testifying what they offer them chairs, especially

812
00:43:52.719 --> 00:43:56.119
if you are in a compromised health state of health.

813
00:43:56.280 --> 00:43:58.000
Yeah, so he just really impresses.

814
00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:00.480
It seems like a wonderful man who has really been

815
00:44:00.519 --> 00:44:01.159
through a lot.

816
00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:04.039
Ian and Heather were pleased to be invited to the lunch,

817
00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:06.760
and he hoped that it might improve the family's relationship

818
00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:09.400
with Aarin. He said that at the luncheon he had

819
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:11.480
noticed that Aaron had used a plate that was a

820
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:14.119
different size and color than the rest of the guests.

821
00:44:14.480 --> 00:44:17.920
Ian said, quote, each person had an individual serve. It

822
00:44:17.960 --> 00:44:20.800
was very much like a pasty. It was a pastry case,

823
00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:23.400
and when we cut into it there was steak and mushrooms.

824
00:44:23.880 --> 00:44:26.480
He testified that when he was admitted to the hospital,

825
00:44:26.519 --> 00:44:28.880
he had forgotten about the mushrooms in the dish and

826
00:44:28.960 --> 00:44:31.679
hadn't mentioned them to the doctor. He said that he'd

827
00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:34.599
seen Aaron eating, but couldn't remember how much she had eaten.

828
00:44:34.960 --> 00:44:38.199
When asked about his relationship with Aaron, Ian said quote,

829
00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:41.679
I would say our relationship was friendly, amicable. It did

830
00:44:41.679 --> 00:44:44.719
not have much depth. We were more like acquaintances. We

831
00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:46.840
didn't see a great deal of each other. She just

832
00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:49.440
seemed like a normal person to me when we met.

833
00:44:49.519 --> 00:44:52.760
Things were friendly. We never had arguments or disputes. She

834
00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:55.719
just seemed like an ordinary person. Heather would have seen

835
00:44:55.840 --> 00:44:57.719
Arin more than me, talk to her more than me,

836
00:44:58.119 --> 00:45:00.719
but we did not consider that the relationship was close.

837
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:03.840
Regarding being invited for lunch. He said that he and

838
00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:07.000
his wife were quote very happy to be invited. It

839
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:10.119
seemed like maybe our relationship was going to improve. We

840
00:45:10.119 --> 00:45:13.519
were very happy to accept. In regards to Aaron's announcement

841
00:45:13.559 --> 00:45:16.400
about her health, Ian said, quote, she said she was

842
00:45:16.519 --> 00:45:20.000
very concerned because she believed it was very serious, life threatening.

843
00:45:20.320 --> 00:45:23.239
She was anxious about telling the kids. She was asking

844
00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:25.800
our advice about that, should I tell the kids or

845
00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:28.320
not tell the kids about this threat to my life.

846
00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:30.599
In that moment, I thought, this is the reason we've

847
00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:33.239
been invited to the lunch. I didn't quite catch what

848
00:45:33.320 --> 00:45:35.719
type of cancer she had. I thought it was some

849
00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:39.119
sort of ovarian or cervical cancer, something like that. I

850
00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:41.880
realized we weren't able to continue, and that we hadn't

851
00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:44.719
prayed about it. I suggested we pray, and I said

852
00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:47.400
a prayer, asking for God's blessing that Aaron would get

853
00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:49.960
the treatment she needed, that the kids would be okay.

854
00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:53.079
Ian is sure that Aaron used the word cancer.

855
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:56.880
The defense pointed to the lack of motive. Aaron was

856
00:45:56.920 --> 00:45:59.920
well off, had a good custody agreement with Simon in

857
00:46:00.119 --> 00:46:02.599
which she had the children the majority of the time,

858
00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:07.519
and her children loved their grandparents. But remember, the prosecution

859
00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:11.199
didn't have to prove a motive. They explained away Aaron's

860
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:14.760
lies and deceit as panic after she realized that she'd

861
00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:19.519
unintentionally done away with beloved relatives. The cancer lie that

862
00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:22.960
was Aarin embarrassed about an upcoming weight loss surgery she

863
00:46:23.159 --> 00:46:26.840
was planning. But there is no evidence that Aaron had

864
00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:30.679
a surgery planned. And she gave the police like the

865
00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:34.360
name of the clinic, and that clinic didn't even offer

866
00:46:34.760 --> 00:46:36.960
like any kind of weight loss surgeries.

867
00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:39.039
I seems like that'd be such an easy thing for

868
00:46:39.079 --> 00:46:41.360
the police to check out that why would she do that?

869
00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:41.639
You know?

870
00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:46.079
Yeah, the allegation that she visited towns with deathcap mushrooms

871
00:46:46.199 --> 00:46:50.719
was not proof and didn't pinpoint her location precisely. A

872
00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:53.880
friend from the online true crime group that Aarin belonged to,

873
00:46:53.960 --> 00:46:58.199
Daniella Barkley, testified that Aaron had excitedly shared pictures with

874
00:46:58.280 --> 00:47:01.480
the group of mushrooms. In her new deal. Aaron told

875
00:47:01.480 --> 00:47:04.480
the group that she'd quote been hiding powdered mushrooms in

876
00:47:04.639 --> 00:47:08.199
everything to trick her kids into eating them. Quote I

877
00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:11.400
mixed it with chocolate brownies. Yesterday and the kids had

878
00:47:11.400 --> 00:47:14.679
no idea. She had also asked the group for tips

879
00:47:14.840 --> 00:47:17.519
on making beef Wellington. I think this is to say

880
00:47:17.559 --> 00:47:20.920
that she wasn't trying to hide these things. Both of

881
00:47:20.920 --> 00:47:24.599
Aaron's children testified via video from interviews they gave in

882
00:47:24.639 --> 00:47:27.400
twenty twenty three when they were nine and fourteen. The

883
00:47:27.519 --> 00:47:30.800
children both confirmed that they'd eaten leftover meat from the

884
00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:33.920
previous day's lunch the next night for dinner, without the

885
00:47:34.039 --> 00:47:37.880
mushrooms or pastry. Allegedly, it was the portion that Aaron

886
00:47:37.960 --> 00:47:41.280
had reserved for Simon. The Sun said that in recent

887
00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:44.239
months his parents had been arguing more than usual. The

888
00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:46.639
daughter said that her mother had told her that she

889
00:47:46.679 --> 00:47:48.719
couldn't be at the lunch because they were going to

890
00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:53.360
discuss adult things. Aaron testified at length in her own defense,

891
00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:56.719
maintaining that the deaths were the result of a tragic accident.

892
00:47:57.320 --> 00:48:00.000
Always a risky move to testify your your own dead.

893
00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:04.079
Some say that she came off as odd, joking awkwardly

894
00:48:04.119 --> 00:48:08.280
at times and sometimes appearing combative with the prosecutor. Aaron

895
00:48:08.360 --> 00:48:12.400
said that she might have inadvertently mixed dried foraged mushrooms

896
00:48:12.440 --> 00:48:15.239
that she had kept mixed in with store bought ones,

897
00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:19.079
not realizing that the foraged ones were Dudley. This mushroom

898
00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:22.800
business is very confusing to me. Yeah, she had some

899
00:48:23.480 --> 00:48:26.800
mushrooms that were like in a powdered form. Then she'd

900
00:48:26.840 --> 00:48:29.960
bought some from the store, and then she admits that

901
00:48:30.280 --> 00:48:32.800
she may have foraged some of them and somehow they

902
00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:36.440
all got mixed together. She did not deny that there

903
00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:39.599
were death cap mushrooms in the beef Wellington, but she

904
00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:42.360
wasn't sure how they got there. She said that she

905
00:48:42.440 --> 00:48:46.280
had consumed the same meal individual parcels of beef Wellington,

906
00:48:46.679 --> 00:48:50.239
but then after her guests left, she had binge eaten

907
00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:53.519
about three fourths of the orange cake that Gail had made,

908
00:48:53.840 --> 00:48:56.880
and then vomited it up because she was so full.

909
00:48:57.480 --> 00:49:00.519
Her attorneys explained that this purging might be why she

910
00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:04.239
fared better than her lunch. Yes, ok, quote, I ate

911
00:49:04.280 --> 00:49:06.760
another piece of cake and then another piece, so I

912
00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:08.880
went to the toilet and brought it back up again.

913
00:49:09.199 --> 00:49:11.440
After I'd done that, I felt better.

914
00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:12.840
The novel defense.

915
00:49:13.159 --> 00:49:15.519
Yeah. Well, Aaron went on to explain that she had

916
00:49:15.559 --> 00:49:19.159
struggled with binge eating disorder for most of her adult life.

917
00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:22.199
She talked about her struggle with self esteem and how

918
00:49:22.239 --> 00:49:25.119
putting weight on in recent years had added to her

919
00:49:25.480 --> 00:49:29.000
mental health issues. In late twenty twenty two, she felt

920
00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:31.760
Simon and his family were pulling away from her and

921
00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:35.079
inviting her to fewer family functions, and that is why

922
00:49:35.199 --> 00:49:37.519
she invited them to her house for lunch.

923
00:49:37.639 --> 00:49:39.519
I kind of wondered about that because it seemed odd

924
00:49:39.559 --> 00:49:42.960
to invite your in laws from your husband, who you

925
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:45.599
were separated from, to a lunch. You know.

926
00:49:46.119 --> 00:49:48.440
Well, I thought the idea was that she had this

927
00:49:48.519 --> 00:49:51.639
health issue and she needed their support. And Ian was

928
00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:54.119
a pastor, and you know, pastors are really good to

929
00:49:54.159 --> 00:49:57.079
talk about your struggles, right, And then I think that's

930
00:49:57.119 --> 00:50:00.480
why she invited him, but clearly that that's not why

931
00:50:00.519 --> 00:50:04.320
she invited them. Aaron said she prefers exotic mushrooms because

932
00:50:04.360 --> 00:50:07.119
they just taste more interesting and they have more flavor.

933
00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:10.519
They tasted good and I didn't get sick. She said

934
00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:13.159
she made the beef Wellington's to make something new and

935
00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:17.480
special and added the dried mushrooms because the paste was bland.

936
00:50:17.880 --> 00:50:20.559
The paste being like what's robbed.

937
00:50:20.280 --> 00:50:24.599
On the Yeah, the mushrooms that are finely minced, Okay,

938
00:50:24.679 --> 00:50:27.440
I don't know, I've never made beef Wellington. I've always

939
00:50:27.480 --> 00:50:29.599
wanted to try it, but I've never made it. But

940
00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:32.599
I'm not sure what you make to make the paste,

941
00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:34.679
But somehow you mix it all together and you stick

942
00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:36.159
it on the beef and then you wrap it in

943
00:50:36.199 --> 00:50:36.880
the pastry.

944
00:50:37.079 --> 00:50:37.480
Gotcha.

945
00:50:37.880 --> 00:50:40.480
I am curious too. Like here she's saying, well, it

946
00:50:40.559 --> 00:50:43.360
was bland, so it means that she must have tasted it.

947
00:50:43.480 --> 00:50:46.440
And you know, if you're tasting, why didn't you get

948
00:50:46.760 --> 00:50:48.519
I know she's saying that she vomited it up.

949
00:50:48.440 --> 00:50:50.440
But though that would have been she would have tasted

950
00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:53.199
it way before it was actually done.

951
00:50:53.280 --> 00:50:53.480
Right.

952
00:50:53.639 --> 00:50:57.559
Yeah. She admitted that she'd disposed of the food dehydrator

953
00:50:57.639 --> 00:51:00.719
after her in laws fell ill when she she realized

954
00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:04.119
that she may have been culpable. She admitted to lying

955
00:51:04.119 --> 00:51:07.440
to investigators because she was fearful of being arrested and

956
00:51:07.480 --> 00:51:11.000
losing custody of her children. Quote. I agree that I

957
00:51:11.039 --> 00:51:13.679
lied because I was afraid I would be held responsible.

958
00:51:14.119 --> 00:51:16.719
When asked if she believed that there were deathcap mushrooms

959
00:51:16.760 --> 00:51:19.599
in the beef Wellington, she replied that she did, but

960
00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:23.000
insisted that it was a horrible accident. Over the course

961
00:51:23.039 --> 00:51:27.239
of eight days of testimony and crossed examination, Aarin steadfastly

962
00:51:27.320 --> 00:51:32.159
maintained her innocence, insisting that she accidentally included foraged mushrooms

963
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:33.440
in the beef Wellington.

964
00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:36.400
The most baffling part of the case for many has

965
00:51:36.440 --> 00:51:40.039
been the lack of a clear motive. Prosecutor Nannette Rogers

966
00:51:40.119 --> 00:51:43.159
even struggled presenting the case with no motive. In her

967
00:51:43.159 --> 00:51:47.320
closing arguments, she said, quote, she alone chose what to cook,

968
00:51:47.559 --> 00:51:50.880
obtained the ingredients, and prepared the meal. That choice to

969
00:51:50.920 --> 00:51:54.920
make individual portions allowed her complete control over the ingredients

970
00:51:54.920 --> 00:51:56.440
in each individual parcel.

971
00:51:56.920 --> 00:51:59.119
I believe that Aaron said that she couldn't find the

972
00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:01.800
right cut of meat eat and that's why she chose

973
00:52:01.880 --> 00:52:04.000
to make the individual portions okay.

974
00:52:04.480 --> 00:52:07.960
On June thirtieth, twenty twenty five, the twelve jurors, seven

975
00:52:08.039 --> 00:52:12.159
men and five women, began their deliberations to decide Aaron's fate.

976
00:52:12.599 --> 00:52:16.519
The judge, Justice Christopher Beale, reminded the jurors that Aaron's

977
00:52:16.599 --> 00:52:19.679
lies and disposal of evidence should not bias their judgment

978
00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:22.679
against her. He said, quote, this is a court of law,

979
00:52:22.880 --> 00:52:26.039
not a court of morals. The jury's decision must be

980
00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:29.719
unanimous because of the media attention the case has received.

981
00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:33.119
The jury was sequestered with no access to their cell phones.

982
00:52:33.599 --> 00:52:36.719
In the United States, if you're an alternate jurer, you

983
00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:40.480
know that you're an alternate juror. In Australia, what they

984
00:52:40.519 --> 00:52:43.480
did is right before that they were about to deliberate,

985
00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:47.280
they pick two numbers, like out of a box, and

986
00:52:47.320 --> 00:52:48.559
those people were dismissed.

987
00:52:48.559 --> 00:52:51.440
Oh, that seems smart. Because you're an alternate juror, and

988
00:52:51.480 --> 00:52:53.599
you know you're an alternate juror, you might not pay

989
00:52:53.639 --> 00:52:54.559
as close of attention.

990
00:52:54.719 --> 00:52:54.880
Right.

991
00:52:55.559 --> 00:52:59.119
Aaron's supporters installed black tarps around the front walkway and

992
00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:02.039
carport of her home to shield her from the media,

993
00:53:02.199 --> 00:53:05.480
signaling that she was hopeful of her release. On Monday,

994
00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:09.039
July seventh, after six days, the jury reached a consensus.

995
00:53:09.440 --> 00:53:12.519
Under Australian law, unlike in the US, none of the

996
00:53:12.599 --> 00:53:16.400
jurors can be publicly identified, and they're prohibited from disclosing

997
00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:20.239
jury room deliberations, which are considered secret even after the

998
00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:21.320
trial ends.

999
00:53:21.280 --> 00:53:23.280
Which again I think that's a pretty good way of

1000
00:53:23.320 --> 00:53:24.599
handling that it is.

1001
00:53:24.679 --> 00:53:27.199
But as a true crime podcaster, I really like it

1002
00:53:27.239 --> 00:53:29.039
when I can hear what the jurors have to say

1003
00:53:29.079 --> 00:53:30.199
after the trial's.

1004
00:53:29.840 --> 00:53:32.280
Over, I think I realize that I forgot to say

1005
00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:35.519
something that is very important. Aaron was on the stand

1006
00:53:35.679 --> 00:53:38.079
testifying for eight days.

1007
00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:42.320
Eight days, eight days. Wow, that's a lot of time.

1008
00:53:42.559 --> 00:53:45.559
Right after reaching the verdict, the jury filed into the

1009
00:53:45.599 --> 00:53:49.239
courtroom around two pm. The victims' families had attended the

1010
00:53:49.239 --> 00:53:51.960
trial each day, but were not present when the verdict

1011
00:53:52.039 --> 00:53:55.119
was read. Aaron tried to make eye contact with the jurors,

1012
00:53:55.159 --> 00:53:58.320
but they avoided her gaze. As the verdict was read,

1013
00:53:58.400 --> 00:54:01.679
she looked calm and poised, but blinked furiously, as if

1014
00:54:01.719 --> 00:54:04.639
to keep her emotions at bay. She was found guilty

1015
00:54:04.679 --> 00:54:06.880
on all three counts of murder and one count of

1016
00:54:06.920 --> 00:54:10.480
attempted murder. Her sentencing will be announced at a future date,

1017
00:54:10.599 --> 00:54:14.039
but it's likely she will receive a lifetime sentence. She

1018
00:54:14.119 --> 00:54:16.800
has twenty eight days to file an appeal, and as

1019
00:54:16.840 --> 00:54:19.840
of the time we are recording, it hasn't yet been filed.

1020
00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:23.079
After the verdict, she was taken to the Maximum security

1021
00:54:23.199 --> 00:54:27.639
Dame Phyllis Frost Center, the largest, toughest and only maximum

1022
00:54:27.679 --> 00:54:31.920
security women's prison in Victoria, about forty five minutes from Melbourne.

1023
00:54:32.159 --> 00:54:35.199
Aarin will likely again be in solitary confinement because of

1024
00:54:35.239 --> 00:54:38.599
the severity of her crime against elderly people. The inmates

1025
00:54:38.639 --> 00:54:40.920
read the news and are well aware of who she is.

1026
00:54:41.320 --> 00:54:43.840
She will likely die in this prison unless her appeal

1027
00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:47.280
goes through. She is the only triple murderer in the prison.

1028
00:54:47.760 --> 00:54:50.639
The Patterson and Wilkinson families decline to make a statement

1029
00:54:50.679 --> 00:54:54.159
after the verdict, but the police released the following statement quote.

1030
00:54:54.400 --> 00:54:57.599
Victoria Police acknowledged the decision of the jury today. Our

1031
00:54:57.639 --> 00:54:59.840
thoughts are with their respective families at this time. We

1032
00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:03.360
acknowledge how difficult these past two years have been for them.

1033
00:55:03.679 --> 00:55:06.119
We will continue to support them in every way possible

1034
00:55:06.159 --> 00:55:08.840
Following this decision. We would like to acknowledge the work

1035
00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:11.719
of the Homicide Squad detective over the course of this

1036
00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:15.880
complex investigation, as well as the significant support received from

1037
00:55:15.920 --> 00:55:19.639
a number of other areas across Victoria Police, and that

1038
00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:22.719
the Patterson and Wilkinson families will not be supplying a

1039
00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:25.960
statement at this time. The beef Wellington recipe that Aaron

1040
00:55:26.079 --> 00:55:28.840
used came from the book recipe Tin Eats Dinner from

1041
00:55:28.920 --> 00:55:33.440
famed Australian chef Nagi Mahashi I visit her website all

1042
00:55:33.480 --> 00:55:35.840
the time if you haven't gone there. She has really

1043
00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:40.280
great recipes. She's adorable and very funny. She just developed

1044
00:55:40.280 --> 00:55:43.519
a recipe this week for peanut butter brownies that she

1045
00:55:43.599 --> 00:55:45.880
was really proud of that. She hasn't posted the recipe yet,

1046
00:55:45.880 --> 00:55:49.039
but oh, I'm excited to make yess for you. In

1047
00:55:49.079 --> 00:55:52.039
response to the media storm surrounding the case, she wrote

1048
00:55:52.079 --> 00:55:56.039
on her website, quote, Dear journalists of Australia, please stop

1049
00:55:56.119 --> 00:55:59.079
calling and emailing and texting and dming me about the

1050
00:55:59.119 --> 00:56:02.519
Aaron Patterson case. It is, of course upsetting to learn

1051
00:56:02.599 --> 00:56:05.280
that one of my recipes, possibly the one that I've

1052
00:56:05.320 --> 00:56:09.159
spent more hours perfecting than any other, something I created

1053
00:56:09.199 --> 00:56:13.320
to bring joy and happiness, is entangled in a tragic situation.

1054
00:56:13.719 --> 00:56:15.639
Other than that, I have nothing to say and I

1055
00:56:15.679 --> 00:56:19.760
won't be talking to anyone. Thank you for respecting my privacy.

1056
00:56:19.840 --> 00:56:22.159
I mean, really, if you think about it, why would why.

1057
00:56:21.960 --> 00:56:27.079
Would just and her recipe did not say death cap

1058
00:56:27.239 --> 00:56:31.519
mushrooms in it. Lauren Sykes, a Swinburne University PhD candidate

1059
00:56:31.559 --> 00:56:35.239
in true crime podcasting, told news dot com dot Au

1060
00:56:35.320 --> 00:56:38.599
that the media and public have turned a devastating loss

1061
00:56:38.599 --> 00:56:42.280
of life into a show for their own amusement. Quote

1062
00:56:42.400 --> 00:56:45.239
from an avalanche of memes about the case to journalists

1063
00:56:45.239 --> 00:56:48.119
hounding the author of the cookbook Patterson based or Beef

1064
00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:51.679
Wellington recipe on, there has been no shortage of unhelpful

1065
00:56:51.800 --> 00:56:55.440
and deeply unseerious behavior online which has been spurred by

1066
00:56:55.440 --> 00:56:58.480
this case. The Aaron Patterson case had all the hallmarks

1067
00:56:58.519 --> 00:57:03.199
of a classic true crime til fraud interpersonal family relationships

1068
00:57:03.239 --> 00:57:06.320
which led to murder a perpetrator who has been described

1069
00:57:06.360 --> 00:57:10.639
as narcissistic and evil in an investigation with enough twists

1070
00:57:10.679 --> 00:57:14.400
and turns to rival any true crime podcaster series. The

1071
00:57:14.480 --> 00:57:17.800
tense media and public attention on this case was inevitable,

1072
00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:21.000
but the amount of online discussion and in person gossiping

1073
00:57:21.199 --> 00:57:24.320
about the Patterson case reveals how easy it is to

1074
00:57:24.360 --> 00:57:28.000
turn unthinkable tragedy into an amusing pop culture moment. To

1075
00:57:28.079 --> 00:57:31.639
chat about murder is not fun. Having not just one,

1076
00:57:31.679 --> 00:57:34.480
but several family members ripped away from you by the

1077
00:57:34.519 --> 00:57:37.719
actions of another is a harrowing experience. The last thing

1078
00:57:37.719 --> 00:57:40.400
the Patterson and Wilkinson families need is more eyes on

1079
00:57:40.440 --> 00:57:43.280
them during such a horrifying moment in their lives. This

1080
00:57:43.440 --> 00:57:45.599
pain and grief will be with them for the rest

1081
00:57:45.639 --> 00:57:49.079
of their lives. The intense international media coverage of this

1082
00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:52.320
case has received will certainly not have helped them grieve.

1083
00:57:52.599 --> 00:57:54.119
Well, that's a very well said statement.

1084
00:57:54.280 --> 00:57:56.679
I thought so too, And we think we talk about

1085
00:57:56.679 --> 00:57:58.480
this all the time off air and on air.

1086
00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:02.559
It's a struggle. I mean, we are sharing these stories

1087
00:58:02.599 --> 00:58:05.480
and they are about tragic things that happen, and we

1088
00:58:05.519 --> 00:58:07.679
try to have a little fun while we tell the stories,

1089
00:58:07.679 --> 00:58:10.559
but we try not to let that interfere with respect

1090
00:58:10.559 --> 00:58:12.119
for the victims and that type of thing.

1091
00:58:12.159 --> 00:58:14.519
But we try our best, but it's a delicate balance.

1092
00:58:14.559 --> 00:58:14.719
Really.

1093
00:58:14.800 --> 00:58:17.400
Yes, we can't say it enough that we realize that

1094
00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:21.000
it is precarious the situation that we put ourselves in

1095
00:58:21.039 --> 00:58:23.719
because we do respect the victims, not just the victims,

1096
00:58:23.760 --> 00:58:26.360
but the families and even the communities.

1097
00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:27.400
Yeah.

1098
00:58:27.440 --> 00:58:30.599
The elder Pattersons and Wilkinson's lived in the quaint village

1099
00:58:30.599 --> 00:58:34.360
of Cornborough, population five thousand. DoD and Gale had lived

1100
00:58:34.360 --> 00:58:36.599
there since nineteen eighty four and had raised their four

1101
00:58:36.679 --> 00:58:39.920
children there. Ian Wilkinson was the pastor of the local

1102
00:58:39.960 --> 00:58:43.320
Baptist church for over twenty years. He and Heather also

1103
00:58:43.400 --> 00:58:46.840
had four children. The people of Kornborough haven't enjoyed being

1104
00:58:46.840 --> 00:58:50.320
in the spotlight. We're talking about the deceased victims. Everyone

1105
00:58:50.360 --> 00:58:53.239
in the village knows someone who has been directly affected

1106
00:58:53.239 --> 00:58:57.320
by the tragedy. Nathan Hershey, a cattle farmer and counselor

1107
00:58:57.400 --> 00:59:01.199
for corn Borough, told the BBC after the Verdi was announced, quote,

1108
00:59:01.280 --> 00:59:04.239
it's not an easy thing to go through a grieving process,

1109
00:59:04.519 --> 00:59:07.639
and it's particularly not easy when there's been so much attention.

1110
00:59:08.039 --> 00:59:10.480
There's an opportunity now for a lot of people to

1111
00:59:10.559 --> 00:59:13.920
be able to have some closure. The locals are fiercely

1112
00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:17.199
loyal and grateful to Gail, Don, Heather and Ian who

1113
00:59:17.239 --> 00:59:20.239
helped build and strengthen their community. Don was a former

1114
00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:23.599
beloved school teacher. Hershey said, quote, you'll hear a lot

1115
00:59:23.639 --> 00:59:26.679
of people talk very fondly about Don, about the impact

1116
00:59:26.760 --> 00:59:28.920
he had on them. He was a great teacher and

1117
00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:32.159
a really engaging person as well. Gail and Heather were

1118
00:59:32.159 --> 00:59:35.480
known for their kindness, generosity and willingness to volunteer for

1119
00:59:35.639 --> 00:59:39.639
various community projects. Hershey said, quote, lives in our local

1120
00:59:39.639 --> 00:59:42.480
community have changed forever. But I would say for a

1121
00:59:42.519 --> 00:59:45.760
lot of people it's just become almost like pop culture.

1122
00:59:46.239 --> 00:59:48.360
Though the past two years has at times brought out

1123
00:59:48.360 --> 00:59:50.599
the worst in our community, it's also shown a light

1124
00:59:50.639 --> 00:59:52.599
on the best. We want to be known as a

1125
00:59:52.639 --> 00:59:55.880
community that has been strong and has supported one another,

1126
00:59:56.400 --> 00:59:58.559
rather than a place that has known for what we

1127
00:59:58.760 --> 01:00:02.239
now know was murder. Three crosses were mounted at the

1128
01:00:02.360 --> 01:00:05.239
entrance of the township and the victim's honor. A message

1129
01:00:05.280 --> 01:00:07.639
was posted outside of the church where Ian is pastor

1130
01:00:07.679 --> 01:00:11.480
after the verdict was read, quote, we all greatly miss Heather,

1131
01:00:11.639 --> 01:00:13.920
Don and Gail. Whether we were friends for a short

1132
01:00:13.960 --> 01:00:17.320
time or over twenty years, they were very special people

1133
01:00:17.320 --> 01:00:19.960
who loved God and love to bless others. It's been

1134
01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:23.400
a long journey, and we continue to support Ian Simon

1135
01:00:23.480 --> 01:00:26.480
and all of the Wilkinson and Patterson family members through

1136
01:00:26.480 --> 01:00:29.559
this difficult time. We appreciate all of the care from

1137
01:00:29.800 --> 01:00:33.719
our local communities, special support from individuals and from the

1138
01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:36.719
Baptist Union of Victoria and the churches and people from

1139
01:00:36.760 --> 01:00:39.280
all over the world who have been praying for us.

1140
01:00:39.480 --> 01:00:42.760
As our pastor Ian has said, quote, life can be hard,

1141
01:00:42.880 --> 01:00:45.360
but our God is faithful and he is always with us.

1142
01:00:45.760 --> 01:00:48.920
The Wilkinson and Patterson families have asked for privacy during

1143
01:00:48.960 --> 01:00:52.679
this time. Please also respect the privacy of our church family.

1144
01:00:53.159 --> 01:00:55.280
Rest in peace, Gail Don and.

1145
01:00:55.239 --> 01:00:56.840
Heather, Yes, rest in peace.

1146
01:00:56.960 --> 01:00:58.719
I'm so glad Ian survived though.

1147
01:00:58.840 --> 01:01:00.960
Yeah, for sure, But it must be.

1148
01:01:01.320 --> 01:01:03.159
Hard to be the only survivor of this.

1149
01:01:03.320 --> 01:01:05.679
I'm sure there's a lot of survivors guilt that goes

1150
01:01:05.719 --> 01:01:06.320
along with that.

1151
01:01:06.800 --> 01:01:09.920
Probably a lot of gratitude too. Yeah, before I ask

1152
01:01:10.039 --> 01:01:13.760
you some discussion questions, I wanted to review the exculpatory

1153
01:01:13.840 --> 01:01:18.719
and inculpatory evidence. Okay, the inculpatory evidence includes Aaron choosing

1154
01:01:18.760 --> 01:01:21.840
to make beef Wellington where she could chop up the mushrooms.

1155
01:01:22.079 --> 01:01:25.599
The mushrooms were deadly and make it really small, so

1156
01:01:25.800 --> 01:01:28.320
the guests really didn't know what they were eating. And

1157
01:01:28.360 --> 01:01:31.360
then she chose to make them into individual portions where

1158
01:01:31.920 --> 01:01:35.639
she could maybe make some without the poisonous mushrooms for herself.

1159
01:01:35.760 --> 01:01:37.840
And the fact that her plate was a different color.

1160
01:01:38.239 --> 01:01:42.519
Right, the cancer diagnosis. She never had cancer, although I

1161
01:01:42.559 --> 01:01:44.280
don't know if I said this, but during the trial

1162
01:01:44.480 --> 01:01:47.159
she swore that she didn't say the word cancer, that

1163
01:01:47.239 --> 01:01:50.239
she said that she was ill. Okay, she had visited

1164
01:01:50.239 --> 01:01:53.719
the eye naturalist website searching for the death cap mushrooms,

1165
01:01:53.760 --> 01:01:57.840
and her phone pinged near the reported area. Aaron claimed

1166
01:01:57.840 --> 01:02:01.599
to have bought the mushrooms at the local Asian grocery store,

1167
01:02:01.639 --> 01:02:02.440
but no one else.

1168
01:02:02.360 --> 01:02:04.960
Can remember where it was either, right, But.

1169
01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:06.920
Can you imagine like the panic for the police at

1170
01:02:06.920 --> 01:02:10.000
first when this, you know, just regular middle aged mom

1171
01:02:10.119 --> 01:02:12.440
is like, yeah, you know, I made this beak Wellington

1172
01:02:12.480 --> 01:02:15.119
and everyone got sick. They're probably really scared that other

1173
01:02:15.159 --> 01:02:17.280
people in the community are going to get sick from

1174
01:02:17.320 --> 01:02:20.280
these mushrooms, so they really did try hard to find them.

1175
01:02:20.599 --> 01:02:24.840
She reset her electronic devices to factory settings multiple times,

1176
01:02:25.239 --> 01:02:28.559
she disposed of the dehydrator, and even though she said

1177
01:02:28.599 --> 01:02:32.119
she was sick, she really wasn't sick, especially compared to

1178
01:02:32.239 --> 01:02:34.679
the other people right lunch. Do you think that there's

1179
01:02:34.719 --> 01:02:36.239
any exculpatory evidence.

1180
01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:41.119
I don't recall hearing anything that was super exculpatory up

1181
01:02:41.159 --> 01:02:41.679
to this point.

1182
01:02:41.679 --> 01:02:43.800
But when I first heard about the case, when I

1183
01:02:43.840 --> 01:02:46.199
heard that she fed the leftovers to her children and

1184
01:02:46.239 --> 01:02:47.719
they didn't get sick, and I was like, well, what

1185
01:02:47.840 --> 01:02:51.039
mother would feed, you know, the leftovers to their children.

1186
01:02:51.360 --> 01:02:55.400
The prosecutor says that she'd never she had some different beef,

1187
01:02:55.440 --> 01:02:58.000
and she probably you know, gave her kids like beef

1188
01:02:58.039 --> 01:03:00.360
that had never touched the mushrooms she did, and give

1189
01:03:00.400 --> 01:03:03.599
them anything that she'd scraped the toxic mushrooms from.

1190
01:03:03.760 --> 01:03:04.920
Yeah, that's probably true.

1191
01:03:05.199 --> 01:03:07.760
Her son did testify though, she said, you know, we

1192
01:03:07.840 --> 01:03:09.440
had the beef and it was like some of the

1193
01:03:09.480 --> 01:03:13.000
best beef I'd ever had. It was delicious. The fact

1194
01:03:13.079 --> 01:03:15.320
that she shared some of the pictures with her Facebook

1195
01:03:15.360 --> 01:03:18.679
friends and she put the hydrated mushrooms, that was kind

1196
01:03:18.719 --> 01:03:20.480
of telling to me. And one of the pictures I'll

1197
01:03:20.480 --> 01:03:22.800
post the picture. I think there are fourteen mushrooms that

1198
01:03:22.840 --> 01:03:25.199
she has on the tray of the dehydrator, and she

1199
01:03:25.280 --> 01:03:27.760
has them on a scale. Having them on the scale

1200
01:03:27.880 --> 01:03:30.679
is a little damning too, because that indicates that maybe

1201
01:03:30.800 --> 01:03:33.840
she knew exactly Yeah, I think, like I said, there

1202
01:03:33.840 --> 01:03:38.159
were fourteen mushrooms. One death cap mushroom might be deadly,

1203
01:03:38.280 --> 01:03:41.559
but two, you know, definitely is going to be more deadly, right,

1204
01:03:41.880 --> 01:03:44.880
And the fact that she dehydrated them is like there

1205
01:03:44.880 --> 01:03:48.960
were a limited supply of death cap mushrooms. She wouldn't

1206
01:03:48.960 --> 01:03:51.960
want to keep going back there, So maybe that's why

1207
01:03:51.960 --> 01:03:55.360
she chose to dehydrate them too. She claimed that she

1208
01:03:55.400 --> 01:03:58.800
had been putting mushrooms in everything. She wasn't trying to

1209
01:03:58.920 --> 01:04:01.199
hide the fact that, you know, she was really into

1210
01:04:01.280 --> 01:04:04.760
mushrooms and she was feeding into her kids and dehydrating

1211
01:04:04.800 --> 01:04:08.440
them and whatnot. She was very cooperative, and the investigation,

1212
01:04:09.119 --> 01:04:10.519
you know, none of these are like, oh, yeah, she

1213
01:04:10.519 --> 01:04:12.960
couldn't have done it because she was cooperating with the police.

1214
01:04:13.400 --> 01:04:14.800
And the lack of a clear motive.

1215
01:04:15.480 --> 01:04:17.079
Yeah, that's the one that kind of gets me. I

1216
01:04:17.119 --> 01:04:19.480
don't really see what the motive is there.

1217
01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:23.360
I know I shouldn't be diagnosing people with psychological disorders,

1218
01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:27.280
but I think Aaron could have orderline personality disorder. We

1219
01:04:27.360 --> 01:04:32.679
talk about this a lot, characterized by intense emotions, unstable relationship,

1220
01:04:32.920 --> 01:04:37.480
a distorted self image, and impulsive behaviors. People with BPD

1221
01:04:37.639 --> 01:04:41.559
may experience mood swings, fear of abandonment, and difficulty manning

1222
01:04:41.719 --> 01:04:45.360
managing their younger They often struggle with a deep inner turmoil,

1223
01:04:45.519 --> 01:04:49.679
and may alternate between idealizing and devaluing others. So I

1224
01:04:49.760 --> 01:04:53.800
mentioned this because she did have this distorted self image, right,

1225
01:04:54.119 --> 01:04:56.800
And we talk about this every time someone in one

1226
01:04:56.840 --> 01:05:01.760
of our cases has orderline personality disorder, the fear of abandonment.

1227
01:05:02.480 --> 01:05:05.400
Simon is leaving her. She's feeling like, you know, Gail

1228
01:05:05.559 --> 01:05:06.320
and done.

1229
01:05:06.159 --> 01:05:07.920
And that was her only family she had.

1230
01:05:08.000 --> 01:05:12.000
Yes, she's feeling like they're moving on without her. Yeah,

1231
01:05:12.039 --> 01:05:15.679
so I think she might have been lonely and angry.

1232
01:05:15.880 --> 01:05:18.800
It was festering in sight of her. She was fixating

1233
01:05:18.840 --> 01:05:22.440
on these relationships and she just couldn't move on.

1234
01:05:22.760 --> 01:05:26.239
Yeah, that's a much more subtle and nuanced diagnosis that

1235
01:05:26.320 --> 01:05:28.519
I was going to make, which is that she had

1236
01:05:28.559 --> 01:05:30.719
a screw loose and there was just something off with her,

1237
01:05:30.880 --> 01:05:31.679
is what it seemed like.

1238
01:05:32.039 --> 01:05:34.039
So you think Aaron is guilty.

1239
01:05:34.280 --> 01:05:37.000
Yes, I do think she is guilty. It just seems

1240
01:05:37.039 --> 01:05:39.800
like too it would be too much of a coincidence

1241
01:05:39.880 --> 01:05:42.480
that she didn't get sick, that she had a different

1242
01:05:42.519 --> 01:05:45.320
color plate. It just seems like too much. And the

1243
01:05:45.320 --> 01:05:49.199
fact that she said that she bought the mushrooms and

1244
01:05:49.239 --> 01:05:50.920
then she had the searches.

1245
01:05:50.760 --> 01:05:53.400
So all the lies that she Yeah, it's just all.

1246
01:05:53.159 --> 01:05:55.880
It was all too much for me to believe. Honestly,

1247
01:05:55.880 --> 01:05:59.239
I think if she had said that she from the beginning,

1248
01:05:59.239 --> 01:06:01.760
if she said I foraged for mushrooms and I didn't

1249
01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:04.960
realize they were poisonous. I made a terrible mistake. I

1250
01:06:05.000 --> 01:06:06.800
think she might have gotten away with it. I still

1251
01:06:06.840 --> 01:06:09.559
think she might have done it intentionally, but it just

1252
01:06:09.559 --> 01:06:11.679
seems like all those lies kind of caught up to her.

1253
01:06:11.960 --> 01:06:15.159
Yeah, I agree. Why is everyone so interested in this case?

1254
01:06:15.639 --> 01:06:18.960
It's a good question. I think that the podcast PhD

1255
01:06:19.119 --> 01:06:22.639
person said it well, right, it's sort of this interpersonal

1256
01:06:22.800 --> 01:06:28.400
family dynamics and this perpetrator who is narcissistic and evil,

1257
01:06:28.559 --> 01:06:30.639
and the fact that I think any of us can

1258
01:06:30.679 --> 01:06:33.920
imagine being in a situation where we, you know, eat

1259
01:06:33.960 --> 01:06:37.960
something and are poisoned and you could just feel then

1260
01:06:38.079 --> 01:06:40.440
you can just feel it. Sort of the personal nature

1261
01:06:40.480 --> 01:06:40.760
of it.

1262
01:06:40.840 --> 01:06:43.840
And I think people are really intrigued by Aaron as

1263
01:06:44.119 --> 01:06:48.800
a person. She seems like such an average middle aged woman. Right,

1264
01:06:49.199 --> 01:06:51.199
she could be your neighbor, she could be your ant,

1265
01:06:51.480 --> 01:06:55.800
She's any woman, and any person really is capable of murder.

1266
01:06:56.119 --> 01:07:00.440
Yeah, And I think also the availability of poison mushrooms,

1267
01:07:00.519 --> 01:07:01.840
I think that's all. It's a little bit of a

1268
01:07:01.840 --> 01:07:04.719
scary thing, right, just knowing that you can go pick

1269
01:07:04.719 --> 01:07:08.079
a mushroom thinking it's going to be perfectly fine, and

1270
01:07:08.119 --> 01:07:08.840
it could kill you.

1271
01:07:09.400 --> 01:07:12.000
I read a lot of accounts of people who were

1272
01:07:12.039 --> 01:07:14.679
like I saw some it was more in the law,

1273
01:07:14.800 --> 01:07:17.000
and I saw some mushrooms grod in my ditch and

1274
01:07:17.039 --> 01:07:19.719
I said, well, those look delicious, and I cooked them

1275
01:07:19.760 --> 01:07:22.320
up in some bottle. Boy, that is the scary thing,

1276
01:07:22.320 --> 01:07:24.119
because I did look at a lot of pictures and

1277
01:07:24.280 --> 01:07:27.840
the death cap mushrooms. They do look delicious. Yeah, I

1278
01:07:27.840 --> 01:07:30.400
mean they look like, you know, just regular mushrooms. So really,

1279
01:07:30.519 --> 01:07:32.920
if you're a mushroom forager, you probably know what you're

1280
01:07:32.920 --> 01:07:33.880
doing for the most part.

1281
01:07:33.960 --> 01:07:35.599
Yeah, just be careful.

1282
01:07:35.840 --> 01:07:38.239
We talked a little bit about Switzerland, how they have

1283
01:07:38.320 --> 01:07:41.119
these stations where you can take the foraged mushroom. Yeah,

1284
01:07:41.320 --> 01:07:43.559
it is a really good idea, and they said that

1285
01:07:43.679 --> 01:07:47.760
you know, we're professionals, but sometimes we don't even really know,

1286
01:07:47.920 --> 01:07:51.079
oh boy, because they can different be different colors and

1287
01:07:51.119 --> 01:07:53.239
different seasons and different sizes.

1288
01:07:52.920 --> 01:07:54.519
And yeah, it's very tricky.

1289
01:07:54.559 --> 01:07:58.400
After Simon canceled, why did Aaron go through with the lunch?

1290
01:07:58.960 --> 01:08:01.599
You know, that's a very good question. It just feels

1291
01:08:01.599 --> 01:08:03.519
like she had made all these plans and she was

1292
01:08:03.599 --> 01:08:05.599
just going to go through with it no matter what.

1293
01:08:05.679 --> 01:08:08.920
Obviously she wanted him there. She made that very clear,

1294
01:08:09.039 --> 01:08:11.920
But it just almost seems like she had it all

1295
01:08:11.920 --> 01:08:14.599
planned out and she didn't want to cancel her plans.

1296
01:08:14.719 --> 01:08:14.920
You know.

1297
01:08:15.079 --> 01:08:17.439
Well, in the way that she could hurt Simon the

1298
01:08:17.560 --> 01:08:20.000
most would be to kill the people he loves. Yeah,

1299
01:08:20.039 --> 01:08:24.239
it's a true and talking about survivor's guilt, Simon must

1300
01:08:24.239 --> 01:08:28.359
have a horrible survivor's guilt. Yeah, I'm sure Aaron was

1301
01:08:28.439 --> 01:08:31.119
a true crime consumer. Do you think that she could

1302
01:08:31.159 --> 01:08:32.960
have gotten away with it if she would? Did she

1303
01:08:33.039 --> 01:08:34.079
not plan good enough?

1304
01:08:34.680 --> 01:08:37.000
Like I said before, I think she could have gotten

1305
01:08:37.000 --> 01:08:39.920
away with it if she just basically from the beginning

1306
01:08:40.359 --> 01:08:43.000
made it seem like a tragic accident that she foraged

1307
01:08:43.079 --> 01:08:46.760
mushrooms that were poisonous, although her Internet search histories might

1308
01:08:46.800 --> 01:08:48.640
have still brought her down with that.

1309
01:08:48.760 --> 01:08:51.119
But yeah, yeah, I think if you run the jury,

1310
01:08:51.119 --> 01:08:52.279
you would have found her guilty.

1311
01:08:52.600 --> 01:08:54.760
Yeah, I think so. I mean, like we always say,

1312
01:08:54.760 --> 01:08:57.560
it's hard to say without listening to all the testimony,

1313
01:08:57.680 --> 01:09:00.359
but from everything you shared with me about the case,

1314
01:09:00.600 --> 01:09:04.319
it seems pretty clear to me that she did it intentionally.

1315
01:09:04.640 --> 01:09:08.039
I think she came off as pretty unlikable to a

1316
01:09:08.079 --> 01:09:11.600
lot of people. Remember doctor Chris the nine to one

1317
01:09:11.600 --> 01:09:14.479
one call, the zero zero zero call. We listened to ye.

1318
01:09:15.039 --> 01:09:17.840
He mentioned that he had a previous interaction with Aaron

1319
01:09:18.000 --> 01:09:21.199
years ago and he remembered her and he said that

1320
01:09:21.640 --> 01:09:24.199
he seems like a very affable guy mm hmmm, and

1321
01:09:24.600 --> 01:09:26.760
he tried to make jokes with her, you know, light

1322
01:09:26.800 --> 01:09:28.800
in the mood, and he said that she was a

1323
01:09:28.840 --> 01:09:29.600
tough crowd.

1324
01:09:30.560 --> 01:09:32.880
Yeah. I mean the way he described her, that that

1325
01:09:33.199 --> 01:09:35.600
kind of has stuck with me from when we talked

1326
01:09:35.640 --> 01:09:38.399
about that because he couldn't he couldn't describe her very well,

1327
01:09:38.399 --> 01:09:40.720
but he was like, there's just something off about her,

1328
01:09:40.840 --> 01:09:43.439
and that really I can kind of see that well.

1329
01:09:43.479 --> 01:09:46.479
Speaking of doctor Webster, he is very important to the case.

1330
01:09:46.600 --> 01:09:49.920
Had he not called Triple Zero, scraps from the meal

1331
01:09:50.159 --> 01:09:52.640
might not have been gathered in time and they became

1332
01:09:52.720 --> 01:09:55.880
a key piece of evidence. The police went looking for Aaron.

1333
01:09:56.039 --> 01:09:58.239
They went to her house. When she didn't appear to

1334
01:09:58.279 --> 01:10:01.560
be home, they notified doctor Webster, who then told them

1335
01:10:01.600 --> 01:10:04.720
to check her trash for the beef. Wellington. He said

1336
01:10:04.720 --> 01:10:07.960
that he almost instantly realized that Aaron was a murderer

1337
01:10:08.039 --> 01:10:10.560
after she left the hospital the first time. His nurse

1338
01:10:10.600 --> 01:10:13.279
said quote looks like someone is trying to do away

1339
01:10:13.319 --> 01:10:16.560
with the church crowd. But doctor Chris is now under

1340
01:10:16.640 --> 01:10:20.000
fire for his comments, and he has been accused of misogyny.

1341
01:10:20.960 --> 01:10:22.720
When I read this, I'm not sure. I think that

1342
01:10:22.720 --> 01:10:25.800
other people are talking about when he called Aaron some names,

1343
01:10:25.800 --> 01:10:28.079
he called the bitch and other things, so I think

1344
01:10:28.119 --> 01:10:32.279
people were citing that as misogyny. So he's a little

1345
01:10:32.359 --> 01:10:36.600
nervous that his reputation is ruined. I think most people

1346
01:10:37.079 --> 01:10:38.439
probably don't think that. I don't know.

1347
01:10:38.800 --> 01:10:41.279
Yeah, I mean I don't know either. I haven't listened

1348
01:10:41.359 --> 01:10:43.039
to everything that he's said to me.

1349
01:10:43.920 --> 01:10:46.000
I'm not sure how the laws work in Australia. I

1350
01:10:46.039 --> 01:10:48.399
think our friend Shanala asked her about this and she

1351
01:10:48.439 --> 01:10:51.800
wasn't sure either. But the police went in Aaron's trash

1352
01:10:52.000 --> 01:10:55.239
to get the beef Wellington out, and I don't believe

1353
01:10:55.239 --> 01:10:57.039
they had a search warrant because I don't think they

1354
01:10:57.039 --> 01:10:59.640
could have gotten one so quickly, because remember Aaron was

1355
01:11:00.000 --> 01:11:01.920
I got the hospital at eight am and they were

1356
01:11:01.920 --> 01:11:04.359
in our house by ten am. So like in the

1357
01:11:04.439 --> 01:11:07.159
United States, you have to have a search warrant. I

1358
01:11:07.159 --> 01:11:10.039
think unless the trash is out at the current was.

1359
01:11:10.079 --> 01:11:11.680
The trash in the house or was it.

1360
01:11:11.720 --> 01:11:13.199
I don't think the trash was in the house. I

1361
01:11:13.239 --> 01:11:15.000
think it was. Yeah, I don't know if it was

1362
01:11:15.319 --> 01:11:18.159
you know, out at the road or you know, if

1363
01:11:18.159 --> 01:11:20.640
it was by the house. That would be something that

1364
01:11:20.680 --> 01:11:22.720
I would be afraid that might come back in an

1365
01:11:22.720 --> 01:11:26.960
appeal situation if it wasn't properly. But I haven't heard

1366
01:11:26.960 --> 01:11:31.520
anyone mention that, so it's probably you know, y legal. Yeah,

1367
01:11:31.920 --> 01:11:35.079
I do want to mention my sources for this episode.

1368
01:11:35.439 --> 01:11:38.359
I listened to a couple of different podcasts, the Mushroom

1369
01:11:38.439 --> 01:11:43.359
Cook podcast and the Mushroom Mushroom Trial podcast. I watched

1370
01:11:43.399 --> 01:11:46.640
an episode of sixty Minutes Australia which I watched a

1371
01:11:46.640 --> 01:11:48.760
few of those for different cases, and they really do

1372
01:11:48.800 --> 01:11:51.159
a good job in that show. And I also read

1373
01:11:52.079 --> 01:11:55.439
about one hundred articles. Yeah, I hope they did it justice.

1374
01:11:55.479 --> 01:11:59.600
But the podcasts the other podcasts were really interesting and informative.

1375
01:12:00.199 --> 01:12:03.479
I just have such a love for our Australian listeners.

1376
01:12:04.000 --> 01:12:07.479
They just seem like the best people. So thanks to

1377
01:12:07.479 --> 01:12:10.560
Schanella who I mentioned, and Sarah who helped me out,

1378
01:12:10.600 --> 01:12:14.439
and Dave who is your friend who always helps us

1379
01:12:14.439 --> 01:12:16.239
out too, So we love you guys, and we really

1380
01:12:16.279 --> 01:12:19.800
appreciate your assistance. Oh and one more, Bronnie, Bronnie b

1381
01:12:20.159 --> 01:12:22.520
thank you so much. I love you, appreciate you.

1382
01:12:22.880 --> 01:12:25.239
And one of the things that Dave assisted us on,

1383
01:12:25.319 --> 01:12:27.840
although not in time, I messaged him a while ago,

1384
01:12:27.880 --> 01:12:30.880
but we're probabys. Like, pronunciations are always a challenge of

1385
01:12:30.920 --> 01:12:32.640
like cities and things like that, and there were a

1386
01:12:32.640 --> 01:12:35.479
lot in this episode of different pronunciations, but the big

1387
01:12:35.520 --> 01:12:39.359
one Melbourne or Melbourne or Melbourne depending on then who

1388
01:12:39.399 --> 01:12:41.279
you asked. So I messaged Dave and I asked him

1389
01:12:41.279 --> 01:12:44.119
how you pronounced that the name of that city because

1390
01:12:44.119 --> 01:12:47.760
he's from there. And here's what he had to say, Melbourne.

1391
01:12:48.359 --> 01:12:50.560
So Melbourne Melbourne, which sounds really weird.

1392
01:12:50.720 --> 01:12:54.039
It sounds weird in our American accent, it sounds, you know, great,

1393
01:12:54.079 --> 01:12:56.840
in the Australian accent. So we try our best, but

1394
01:12:56.880 --> 01:12:59.560
obviously we make mistakes. We did all the time, and

1395
01:12:59.560 --> 01:13:00.000
that's okay.

1396
01:13:00.079 --> 01:13:05.239
Hey, that's okay.

1397
01:13:07.079 --> 01:13:09.880
So I talked to a lot of listeners online, especially

1398
01:13:09.960 --> 01:13:13.119
on Instagram, and I love talking to everyone, but this

1399
01:13:13.239 --> 01:13:17.279
is kind of funny. If you change your profile picture,

1400
01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:20.640
I'm not going to know who I'm talking to and

1401
01:13:20.840 --> 01:13:22.560
a lot of people like I don't even know, Like

1402
01:13:22.560 --> 01:13:25.000
when I said Bronni, I'm like, I think that's her name,

1403
01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:26.560
but I'm not even I don't know what you know.

1404
01:13:26.640 --> 01:13:30.399
Sometimes people like their Instagram profile name isn't their real name.

1405
01:13:30.439 --> 01:13:33.199
It's just like loves flowers or something, you know, whatever

1406
01:13:33.239 --> 01:13:36.520
it is. Like, So, you know, try not to change

1407
01:13:36.560 --> 01:13:39.600
your profile picture because I might not know who you are,

1408
01:13:39.760 --> 01:13:41.680
which I feel really bad saying. Which is great.

1409
01:13:41.800 --> 01:13:45.479
It's a common thing. I think you remember somebody based

1410
01:13:45.479 --> 01:13:47.279
on their profile picture got their name.

1411
01:13:47.439 --> 01:13:49.960
Yeah, well you know that I'm young and hip and cool.

1412
01:13:50.039 --> 01:13:52.359
Because I watched Love Island, of course, I've learned a

1413
01:13:52.359 --> 01:13:54.920
lot of new words. Yeah, and I thought I might

1414
01:13:54.960 --> 01:13:57.199
give you a little quiz to see if you know

1415
01:13:57.359 --> 01:13:59.399
what some of these words that I'm going to be

1416
01:13:59.479 --> 01:14:00.760
using now around the house.

1417
01:14:01.199 --> 01:14:03.319
Okay, well I probably won't, but this will be good

1418
01:14:03.319 --> 01:14:03.560
for me.

1419
01:14:04.000 --> 01:14:05.319
I think you're going to. I think you're going to

1420
01:14:05.399 --> 01:14:07.560
know some of them, and I hope it will help

1421
01:14:07.600 --> 01:14:11.520
our listeners be able to talk to your your zoomers.

1422
01:14:12.800 --> 01:14:14.880
See, I don't even know what a zoomers you do.

1423
01:14:14.960 --> 01:14:17.039
Our kids talk about it all you've heard.

1424
01:14:16.840 --> 01:14:19.920
The term, but I really don't know where a zoomer

1425
01:14:20.039 --> 01:14:23.399
is in the whole you know scheme of different generations.

1426
01:14:23.560 --> 01:14:26.079
Okay, well, our kids are zoomers, and we do have

1427
01:14:26.119 --> 01:14:28.399
some younger people that listen to us too, but I

1428
01:14:28.439 --> 01:14:31.159
think most people are you know, parents that listen to us.

1429
01:14:31.359 --> 01:14:35.680
Or what does CAP mean? Cap or no cap? I'm

1430
01:14:35.680 --> 01:14:36.800
going to give you some options.

1431
01:14:36.880 --> 01:14:39.119
I think cap is something to do with like your

1432
01:14:39.239 --> 01:14:43.920
salary in Major League Baseball? Okay, but go ahead.

1433
01:14:44.079 --> 01:14:46.479
Does it mean if someone says that's cap, doesn't mean

1434
01:14:46.560 --> 01:14:51.600
A that's a lie, B that's a trend, C that's cool,

1435
01:14:52.119 --> 01:14:53.680
or D that's confusing.

1436
01:14:54.359 --> 01:14:56.840
I'm going to go with that's cool because it sounds

1437
01:14:56.840 --> 01:14:59.359
sort of like capital, like maybe it's short for.

1438
01:14:59.640 --> 01:15:03.600
Capeople say cap or no cap, So you're wrong. Cap

1439
01:15:03.720 --> 01:15:08.960
means lie and no cap means for real. Okay, what

1440
01:15:09.000 --> 01:15:13.079
do you think bussin means bustin? This mac and cheese

1441
01:15:13.279 --> 01:15:18.399
is bustin' A it's rich, B it's spicy, C it's delician,

1442
01:15:18.640 --> 01:15:21.720
or D it's hot bustin' by the way you spelled

1443
01:15:21.760 --> 01:15:22.479
b U s S.

1444
01:15:22.520 --> 01:15:24.960
I n Oh, what are my choices?

1445
01:15:25.000 --> 01:15:28.920
I have no idea rich, spicy, delicious or too hot.

1446
01:15:29.840 --> 01:15:32.359
I'm just gonna go with delicious, but I really have

1447
01:15:32.399 --> 01:15:32.840
no idea.

1448
01:15:32.880 --> 01:15:37.640
Correct she means really really good. Our son said, this

1449
01:15:37.720 --> 01:15:39.359
is an older one and I shouldn't do it, but

1450
01:15:39.399 --> 01:15:43.319
I'm just gonna do it anyway. Giacht it's g y at,

1451
01:15:44.760 --> 01:15:49.920
she's got that giat walking past A swag, B energy,

1452
01:15:50.239 --> 01:15:51.439
C hair or D.

1453
01:15:51.640 --> 01:15:53.960
Backside um swag.

1454
01:15:54.520 --> 01:16:01.319
No, it is slang for big butt, usually said or thirst.

1455
01:16:01.359 --> 01:16:06.960
I'm saying for dead ass, you dead ass forgot your

1456
01:16:07.039 --> 01:16:13.000
keys again? A seriously, be accidentally, C nervously or D loudly.

1457
01:16:13.239 --> 01:16:16.239
I think this one is seriously correct. Okay, that one,

1458
01:16:16.359 --> 01:16:18.359
that's the only one I felt like I kind of

1459
01:16:18.600 --> 01:16:18.880
might have.

1460
01:16:19.079 --> 01:16:21.000
I am not keeping a score just for the record.

1461
01:16:21.000 --> 01:16:23.840
If you want to keep your own score, that's good. Simpin.

1462
01:16:24.439 --> 01:16:29.600
He's texting her fourteen times a day total, simp simp

1463
01:16:30.119 --> 01:16:38.039
he's obsessed, he's threatening, he's detached, or he's confused threatening, No,

1464
01:16:38.680 --> 01:16:42.560
he's obsessed. Simping means doing too much for someone who

1465
01:16:42.600 --> 01:16:47.840
isn't reciprocating. Okay, what would we have called like he's whipped?

1466
01:16:47.920 --> 01:16:48.279
Maybe?

1467
01:16:48.600 --> 01:16:53.720
Yeah? Crashing out? Bro is crashing out over his breakup.

1468
01:16:54.199 --> 01:16:58.520
A taking a nap, B giving up, C going wild

1469
01:16:58.600 --> 01:17:03.039
and ruining everything, or D posting cryptic Instagram stories.

1470
01:17:03.279 --> 01:17:05.159
I would have said taking a nap, but that's what

1471
01:17:05.279 --> 01:17:07.119
you know, we would have said years ago. I'm going

1472
01:17:07.159 --> 01:17:10.239
to crash, yeah, but I'm gonna say going wild.

1473
01:17:10.279 --> 01:17:15.560
Yeah, losing control, self distracting, usually emotionally orient cassively. I

1474
01:17:15.600 --> 01:17:18.800
think you're gonna nail this snax RIZ.

1475
01:17:19.319 --> 01:17:20.239
I know this one.

1476
01:17:20.479 --> 01:17:22.960
I think you do. He doesn't look like much, but

1477
01:17:23.039 --> 01:17:27.680
his riz is crazy. A, his jokes, be his money,

1478
01:17:27.920 --> 01:17:30.479
see his fashion, D his charm or.

1479
01:17:30.479 --> 01:17:33.399
Game charm because it's short for charisma.

1480
01:17:33.000 --> 01:17:38.239
Right exactly. Yes, sending me slash I'm dead. That video

1481
01:17:38.399 --> 01:17:43.159
is sending me I'm dead. Does it mean ay, I'm confused,

1482
01:17:43.239 --> 01:17:46.560
B I'm laughing way too hard, See I'm offended, or

1483
01:17:46.720 --> 01:17:47.920
D I'm out of here.

1484
01:17:48.159 --> 01:17:49.960
I'm gonna say I'm laughing way too hard.

1485
01:17:50.199 --> 01:17:55.840
Yeah, it's the modern lol extreme laughter. You're doing great, sweetie.

1486
01:17:56.359 --> 01:18:00.920
That as main character energy. She's walking like she's got

1487
01:18:01.000 --> 01:18:05.119
main character energy. Is it a self centered B she's

1488
01:18:05.239 --> 01:18:09.039
confident like the star of the show. See she's extra D.

1489
01:18:09.279 --> 01:18:10.439
She's looking for attention.

1490
01:18:10.880 --> 01:18:13.000
Oh boy, those all those all sound kind of similar.

1491
01:18:13.039 --> 01:18:15.840
I mean, I I think, like being self centered, Like

1492
01:18:15.920 --> 01:18:16.239
you're the.

1493
01:18:16.920 --> 01:18:19.399
Star of the show, right, so you kind of you

1494
01:18:19.600 --> 01:18:20.119
the first.

1495
01:18:20.159 --> 01:18:21.760
The first two sound kind of similar to me.

1496
01:18:21.880 --> 01:18:24.039
Yeah, I mean you're right, they're similar. But yeah, like

1497
01:18:24.079 --> 01:18:27.159
she's star, the star of her show. I think you

1498
01:18:27.199 --> 01:18:28.560
know the last one too. I think everyone knows the

1499
01:18:28.600 --> 01:18:31.520
last one. Maybe I'm wrong, but touch grass, dude, just

1500
01:18:31.640 --> 01:18:33.920
touch grass? Oh you don't know, Okay, I've never heard

1501
01:18:33.920 --> 01:18:37.000
that before. A smoke weed be go outside and chill,

1502
01:18:37.359 --> 01:18:39.760
see get back to work or d work out?

1503
01:18:40.119 --> 01:18:41.560
I guess go outside and chill.

1504
01:18:41.840 --> 01:18:44.600
Yeah. Yeah, like if someone's you know, just kind of

1505
01:18:44.640 --> 01:18:48.079
reeling or you know, upset, you just want to unplug

1506
01:18:48.159 --> 01:18:49.680
and go touch grass. Yeah.

1507
01:18:49.800 --> 01:18:51.680
Well, I want to thank you for making me feel

1508
01:18:52.000 --> 01:18:53.640
older than I've ever felt in my life.

1509
01:18:53.880 --> 01:18:57.840
So well, there's a couple other ones that are funny,

1510
01:18:57.960 --> 01:19:00.640
Like you've heard people sometimes and then I will say,

1511
01:19:00.640 --> 01:19:03.840
we're gonna have girl dinner. Do you know what that means?

1512
01:19:04.039 --> 01:19:06.079
I just assume that meant you were going to have

1513
01:19:06.119 --> 01:19:07.399
dinner with our doughter.

1514
01:19:08.600 --> 01:19:11.960
Well, usually it means like like girls are I think

1515
01:19:12.000 --> 01:19:13.840
boys do it too, but like we'll just have like

1516
01:19:13.960 --> 01:19:17.439
a smoothie and like, I don't know, just like an

1517
01:19:17.479 --> 01:19:19.359
easy dinner. I think a lot of times people have

1518
01:19:19.439 --> 01:19:22.079
like cottage cheese or it's just like a really simple

1519
01:19:22.199 --> 01:19:24.920
quick dinner. Gotcha, Well, the quiz is over. I think

1520
01:19:24.920 --> 01:19:27.760
you did great. I think adjusted for your age, I

1521
01:19:27.800 --> 01:19:29.720
think you got like a B plus.

1522
01:19:29.800 --> 01:19:30.920
Okay, I'll take it.

1523
01:19:31.199 --> 01:19:34.520
Do you know what it means if someone says I

1524
01:19:34.720 --> 01:19:40.119
ate or they ate uh not or left no crumbs

1525
01:19:40.199 --> 01:19:40.880
that's similar.

1526
01:19:41.319 --> 01:19:42.279
No, I don't think I know.

1527
01:19:42.319 --> 01:19:44.279
That means you killed it, you did a really good job.

1528
01:19:44.399 --> 01:19:46.640
Okay. I think I've heard that in sports before, so

1529
01:19:46.680 --> 01:19:47.399
I should.

1530
01:19:47.760 --> 01:19:48.680
I didn't know that was a Yeah.

1531
01:19:48.680 --> 01:19:50.600
I think like if a player did really well, like

1532
01:19:50.680 --> 01:19:51.920
I think they might say I ate.

1533
01:19:52.000 --> 01:19:54.800
But okay, one more that I've actually added to my Okay,

1534
01:19:54.840 --> 01:19:56.439
but I think the ones that I actually know are

1535
01:19:56.479 --> 01:19:58.920
probably older. I'm sure, like this is probably all of

1536
01:19:58.960 --> 01:20:02.199
these are probably like gone and I have expired. It's

1537
01:20:02.279 --> 01:20:06.039
not cool anymore. But mid mid Yeah, that's I think

1538
01:20:06.039 --> 01:20:08.479
that's a really good term for a lot of things.

1539
01:20:08.560 --> 01:20:11.239
Yeah, that kind of capture is like something that's just sort.

1540
01:20:11.000 --> 01:20:13.760
Of like kind of average. It's yeah, like a movie

1541
01:20:13.760 --> 01:20:14.479
that you kind of liked.

1542
01:20:14.600 --> 01:20:15.479
Yeah, I like that one.

1543
01:20:15.560 --> 01:20:19.000
You're such a good sport. I appreciate you letting me

1544
01:20:19.359 --> 01:20:22.039
try to embarrass you all the time, but you always

1545
01:20:22.159 --> 01:20:23.560
are up for anything.

1546
01:20:23.399 --> 01:20:24.800
Always happy to be embarrassed.

1547
01:20:25.000 --> 01:20:26.960
All right, before we go for real, I just wanted

1548
01:20:26.960 --> 01:20:29.680
to say thank you to everyone who leaves us nice

1549
01:20:29.760 --> 01:20:33.079
encouraging messages. And we just got a super sweet email

1550
01:20:33.119 --> 01:20:35.840
from our listener Carla today that made us both smile.

1551
01:20:36.359 --> 01:20:40.239
We read them, we appreciate them, and we're just always

1552
01:20:40.319 --> 01:20:43.960
very overwhelmed and just grateful for all of you and

1553
01:20:44.000 --> 01:20:47.560
your support. Please rate, review, follow and subscribe, Find us

1554
01:20:47.600 --> 01:20:50.680
on social media, or send us an email at Lovemrykill

1555
01:20:50.840 --> 01:20:53.880
at gmail dot com, and please consider supporting us on

1556
01:20:53.960 --> 01:20:57.880
Patreon dot com, slash Love Mary Kill one tier five

1557
01:20:57.960 --> 01:21:00.359
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1558
01:21:00.439 --> 01:21:01.640
monthly bonus.

1559
01:21:01.279 --> 01:21:03.760
Episode, or if you want to send us a snack.

1560
01:21:03.640 --> 01:21:04.880
Or cash cash money.

1561
01:21:05.560 --> 01:21:07.720
Oh, just send us a snack if you want to.

1562
01:21:07.920 --> 01:21:09.439
Yeah, I'm just kidding. We don't need your money.

1563
01:21:09.479 --> 01:21:13.039
Send it to LMK pod po box one one one, Dexter,

1564
01:21:13.159 --> 01:21:15.479
Michigan four eight one three zero.

1565
01:21:16.000 --> 01:21:19.000
Until next time, don't kill your wife, and don't kill

1566
01:21:19.039 --> 01:22:01.880
your husband,