Florence and Jean-Claude Romand

0:00 I am Rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, some days you'll feel like killing your husband, and some days you'll feel like killing your wife. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Tina, Oh hey Rich? Oh are you fine? Were you? It's been a little bit of a bumpy starter. One of us hits well, we both kind of had the giggles, which which was good, but then we had some technical difficulties. But we're hanging in there. Yeah. Yeah, So I have a question for you. Sure. Have you ever told a lie and then that lie you had to tell another lie to cover up the original lie, and then before you knew it, the lies were spiraling out of control? Uh, you tell me, I don't think. I don't think. So I try really hard not to lie.

0:58 I used to when I was younger. Oh my god, my yeah, but no, I lied a lot to my poor mom. But you had to when we were kids. It's true, you just didn't get away with things. I couldn't think of any good examples from my own life. I was the best thing I could think of that fits that scenario. Is I told this story about a year ago the startup that I worked for, the CEO of our company. Like he lied. He turned out to be a con man. And I kept thinking about how that must have begun, how that must have began, and I thought, I think it probably started with like a simple lie, Like probably one quarter he was feeling pressure from the investors and he lied and said, oh, we had some sale that we didn't have because he thought, oh, it'll be no problem, we'll get it next quarter. Well, and he was a he was a great CEO until he wasn't. Yeah exactly. And then I think probably the next quarter, you know, we didn't get the deal that he thought we were going to get. So the lie went on and it got worse and worse, and like after several months of that, he was like faking the fact that he had cancer and COVID and stuff like that got really crazy. Right, So that's what today's story is about a guy who started lying in college and his lies compounded for like eighteen years. Okay, his whole life turned out to be a lie. That's hard. It is hard to keep track.

2:17 It is it's hard to even imagine. Not like his closest friends, his family, nobody knew the truth why. I'm watching The Traders right now on Peacock and it's kind of whenever I see a reality show like that, I'm like, there's no way I would be able to do that, to lie to so many people and have different subsets of lies to different I just I couldn't do it. Hard to keep track, It's hard to keep track. Well, is the today's case? Was there initial tent malicious or benign? I think the initial intent was benign and then it just spiraled out of control. Yeah, and do you think that's the same as your former CEO? I have to believe that. Yeah. Yeah, it just started out as like, well, though you found not just you, but you're fellow your coworkers found lies that went back to like college though. True. Yeah, you're right, Like he may have lied about other things like where he went to college and whether he graduated. Yeah, if he built wells in Africa or so. Yeah. I think maybe he is a pathological liar at a sociopath. That could be. Yeah, And I wish I wish I knew what happened to him. I keep every once in a while I google his name because I'm like, what happened did he flee. Did he get arrested.

3:28 I really don't know, but I'm really curious he changed his name and fled the country. I really wouldn't be surprised. But it's going to be an interesting case today. And it's based in France. So shout out to my colleagues. My company is actually based in France, and I know some of them are listeners now because I did a little podcasting class a couple of weeks ago for them. So I should have taken that class. I want to apologize in advance to my colleagues for mispronunciations, because there are going to be a few. Well did you do speak a little French? I took one year? And oh you did? I thought you took that. I took one year and then I did try to pick it up again later, but it just never never took. So no, I don't. I cannot lay claim to speaking any French, really, not like myself, who is a fluent Spanish speaker. So impressive you are. So I have a I have a snack that ties into France because so I think we talked about this on another episode, but we have a subscription to a service called universal Ums, which they send you a box every month and it has snacks. Did you hijack the Universal Well, I was working on this case from France and I happened to get I know it's cheating, but I happened to get the mail and there was a box from Universal Yums and it was snacks from France.

4:44 And I was like, well, that is I'm not happy right now. You're a cheater. I think you're gonna I think these snacks are really good though they look they look really I mean, it is a fun subscription, but yeah, and they are not a sponsor, by the way, even though they probably should be. But yeah, there's a whole bunch of stuff in here. There's actually like a whole there's like a whole book in here where the whole history of all these different snacks that we got. So I think we mentioned mentioned it last time we talked about Universal Yams. But I think it's a great gift for a kid. Yeah. Well, there's a whole bunch of stuff in this snack box, So why don't we take a quick break and try at least some tips on the cheeseburger? Well, what'd you think? Those were perfectly delightful snacks? Yeah, it's just kind of sad. When you like something, it's like, well, I'll probably never get that again. We had some goat cheese potato chips, which was a little weird, but they were pretty good. And then some butter some buttery biscuits. They were delicious. I would I would buy those of they were available in the United States readily. I'm going to France a few weeks, so maybe I'll find some. All right, Should we get on with our case? We sure should. Today I'm going to tell you the story of Florence and Jean Claude Romand. Sure. After four am on Monday, January eleventh, nineteen ninety three, Mark Vital Durand received a call that there was a fire at the house of one of his oldest and best friends, Jean Claude Romand. Mark had gone to medical school with Jean claud many years

6:15 earlier. While the two had taken different paths in their career, Mark was a general practitioner, while Jean Claude had become a researcher, working at the World Health Organization, mingling with government officials and attending international conferences. The two had remained close since medical school. They had married around the same time. They lived in the same town, and their children had grown up together. In fact, Mark's oldest daughter had spent the night at the Romans home just a few days earlier, as she often did, Mark was thankful that she had not been there the night of the fire. Mark rushed over to Jean Claud's home, only to find emergency workers in the process of bringing bodies out of the house. Florence, jean Claud's wife of nearly thirteen years, their daughter Caroline, who was seven, and their son Antoine, who was five.

7:02 Jean Claude, who was nearly thirty nine years old, was still alive, but it wasn't certain whether or not he would survive. Initially, everyone assumed the fire was the result of a boiler accident, but as Florence's body was being carried out of the house, Mark stroked her hair to say goodbye, and he felt something strange, an open wound at the base of her skull. He pointed it out to the emergency personnel on the screen on the site. They said that a beam must have fallen on her. Jean Claud was taken to the hospital and put in a hyperbaric chamber. The prognosis was guarded. Mark prayed for Jean Claude, not that he would recover, but that he would never wake up from his coma because Mark knew that family meant everything to Jean Claude, and that he would not want to survive if his entire family was gone. Jean Claude's elderly parents lived fifty miles away in the town where jean Claud grew up, nestled in the Jura Mountains. The police weren't able to reach them on the phone, so they called jean Claud's uncle, who lived nearby, to go over and tell them what had happened.

8:03 When the uncle arrived, he found the door locked and no barking from the dog, which was unusual. He was worried, so he broke into the house and he found jean Claud's parents lying dead in pools of blood, along with the dog. They had all been shot and killed. The initial examinations of jean Claud's wife, Florence, and their two children showed that their deaths had not been an accident either. Florence had died from blunt force trauma to the head, and the children had both been shot and killed before the fire, two crimes fifty miles apart committed against the same family. The first thought was that Jean Claud must have had an enemy who wanted revenge. The police interviewed Jean Claud's friend Mark, who told them everyone loved Jean Claud and his family. He was well respected by everyone. He was a well known medical researcher at the World Health Organization just over the border in Geneva, Switzerland, where he had worked for the past ten years. He and Florence were both active in the community and in their kids' school. They were considered pillars of the community. The next step for the police was to make some calls to the World Health Organization to find out more about Jean Claude's work there and to see if he may have made any enemies. They called and eventually got passed to the personnel director, who told them there was no doctor Romand who worked at the World Health Organization. Further investigation found that he wasn't listed in the French Registry of Physicians, he wasn't on staff at the hospitals in Paris where he had claimed to be, and he hadn't even graduated from the medical school in lyone even though Mark and several other friends swore he had been their attending

9:37 classes with them the entire time. Mark and other friends of Jean Claude's at first refused to believe any of this. There was just no way. Mark had been close friends with Jean Claude for twenty years. He was a successful researcher, and his lifestyle was what you would expect for someone of his stature. Wild rumors and speculations started spreading. Maybe Jean Claude was involved in and illegal activities, trafficking arms, currency, drugs, or even human organs. Maybe he was a spy or a member of the Russian mafia. He did travel a lot, including a trip to Russia a year earlier. Who was Jean Claude Romand was that a rhetorical I'm hoping you could answer it. It sounds like kind of a con man. So he out of you know, his friends, and like he didn't have any friends that he worked with other than like his old college friends. Yeah he didn't. Well, we're going to go through his whole past and everything, but he never no one in his life knew the truth about him. Well, I have met very few of your coworkers and I say, one of the last two jobs you have.

10:45 I don't think I've met any of your coworkers, so yeah, very strange, little suspicious. I think you're setting me up to say words. I can't even speak English, so I'm going to do my best here. Jean Claude Ramond was born in nineteen fifty four and grew up in a village called Clervau la Lac close. I think that's pretty good. Well, you'd do it, Clervaux le Lac, I thought that's about it. In the eastern part of France, nestled in the Jura Mountains, not far from the Swiss border. The Romans had lived in the small town for generations and had earned their keep as foresters. They were salt of the earth, hard working, god fearing people. Jean Claud was their only child. As a child, Jean Claud was described as quiet, well behaved, and an excellent student.

11:35 He liked to read, never got into trouble, and kept to himself for the most part. He was bad at sports and intimidated by girls. Jean Claud admired his father's stoic nature. His mother, on the other hand, was anxious and always worried so Jean Claud learned to pretend that everything was fine all the time because he loved his mother and didn't want to upset her. So that was in the book I read about this case. They talked about this, and I don't know if it was meant to imply that that was the beginning of his lies because he kept inside any troubles because he didn't want to upset his mother or not. But I don't know. You're more of a psychiatrist than I am. Oh no, well, I think that's true for a lot of kids. You just want to please your parents.

12:18 And I don't think there's a lot of deep seated, you know, psychological travelogy because of that, right, But apparently he didn't have some issues. Initially, he planned to continue the family tradition of forestry, and he entered a prep class to prepare for the Forestry Commission exam. There's an exam. Yeah, I was surprised about that too. But at the prep school he was bullied, and then he developed a series of sinus infections which forced him to miss class, and he eventually abandoned his plans for a career in forestry. I have a hard time getting through that we like have the giggles today and it's really bad. It is kind of it's kind of funny, like just like kids. Yeah, it just sinus infections caused him to change his his career. But then he decided to go to medicals. Yeah exactly, well, maybe he could fix his sinuses, a decision that he thought would disappoint his father. I'm sorry spirit in history to be disappointed about their child being a doctor, but his father was thrilled and proud that his son was going to become a doctor. In nineteen seventy three, at the age of nineteen, Jean Claude left to attend university in Leone, about an hour and a half drive from his hometown. One reason he may have wanted to go there is because Florence Crolette Crolet Crolet, who was a distant cousin he knew from family gatherings, was also starting medical school in leon at the same time.

13:46 Jean Claude later said that from the age of fourteen, he had considered himself to be engaged to Florence, although it took her a lot longer to commit. Huh, I thought he was from a young age. I mean it was like a distant cousin, so I think it was, you know, she was sort of family to him, and so maybe he felt more comfortable with her, gotcha. Florence grew up in the town of Annisey, about ninety miles south of where Jean claud grew up. She was the eldest of three children, having two younger brothers. Her father worked for a company that made eyeglass frames. She was tall and athletic, and more outgoing and social than Jean Claude. People who knew her said that her Catholicism was important to her and that she wasn't afraid to speak her mind. At medical school in Leone, Florence was very social, while Jean Claude didn't really know anyone other than her. Over time, though, he worked himself into her growing circle of friends, which included Mark Vital Durand, who I mentioned earlier.

14:46 Mark was the natural leader of their group of friends, and he grew close to Jean Claude, seeing him as reliable and loyal. Jean Claude was persistent in his pursuit of Florence, which irritated her. According to her college roommates, whenever she would go home for the weekend. He would show up at the train station on Sunday night when she returned to walk her back to her apartment. She was touched by how devoted he was to her, but she wasn't in love with him. Eventually, though, he wore her down, and in the spring of nineteen seventy five, near the end of their second year of studies, their relationship turned romantic, but only for a brief time. Jean Claude told Florence he loved her, and they had sex for the first time, but after that she told him she needed to concentrate on her exams and they shouldn't see each other anymore. Do you think it was just one drunken night or was it this were they starting to date? I don't know for sure. I feel like maybe she felt sorry for him, or maybe he was just so persistent that she had a moment of weakness and gave in and then afterwards regretted it and decided it wasn't right. I think I had like a relationship that started like that to accident like that they accidentally became my boyfriend and then yeah, talking about me. Well, in any case, this sent Jean claud into a deep depression, and it was during this depression that his eighteen years of fraud and deception would begin. It began innocently enough. He overslept and missed taking his second year exam. Basically, this

16:18 is the exam that you have to pass in order to get admitted to your third year, which is really where the real medical training begins. Missing the exam wasn't the end of the world. You could take it again in September, and jean Claud didn't even need an especially good grade to pass. Jean Claud's depression continued through the summer, though Florence continued to put him off, saying she needed to focus on her studies, but he heard through friends that she was still going out with her friends and having fun, which made him feel worse. One night during that summer, there was an incident that showed jean Claud's propensity for making up tall tales. He was out with some friends at a nightclub when he told them he was going out to his car to get his cigarettes. He was gone for a long time, although no one really noticed. When he finally returned several hours later, his shirt was torn and blood stained, and he seemed really upset. He told his friends that some strangers had attacked him without provocation. He said they pointed a gun at him, took his car keys, and made him get into the trunk before driving off. They drove about thirty miles and then they stopped, pulled him out of the trunk, beat him up, and then left him there with his car, which he then drove back to the nightclub. He said he had no idea why they had done this. His dumbfounded friends said, you need to file a police report, and Jean Claude said that he would.

17:38 However, there's no record that he ever did, so we don't know for sure, but it's likely that he made the whole story up. Why I don't know. Maybe he felt left out and he wanted to draw attention to himself. I don't know. But so it's such a bizarre story to even make up, Like, yeah, these people just attacked me for no reason, and they drove me thirty mile and left me with my car. I mean, it's just that is very bizarre. I thought you were going to say, like he went and attacked a woman or something like that. No. No. When September of nineteen seventy five came around, it was time to take the exam again, but instead of going to take the exam, jean Claud just laid in bed all day. When his parents called later to ask how it went, he said he did well, even missing the exam a second time. If jean Claude had faced the music, he could have worked something out with the university, but for whatever reason, he just couldn't do it. Instead, on the day the exam grades were posted, he went to check the results with all of his friends, and he told them he had passed and was accepted as a third year medical student. Jean Claude's depression deepened, and for the next trimester he mostly stayed in his apartment, which his parents had bought for him. He didn't see his friends, didn't answer the door if anyone came by. He basically laid in bed all day, surviving by eating canned foods. Around the Christmas holidays, Mark came over and rang his doorbell. Jean Claud didn't answer, but Mark wouldn't go away.

19:04 He kept on ringing it until Jean Claude finally answered. Mark assumed that jean Claud was still depressed about Florence dumping him, which was certainly true, and it was how the depression began. But now Jean Claude had his whole school situation to add to his anxiety. Mark showed Jean Claude some tough love and told him he needed to snap out of it. Well, that always works, right, He said that maybe Florence would change her mind, and if not, there were plenty of other girls out there. Jean Claude then told Mark the next in his series of big lies. He said that he had been diagnosed with lymphoma or cancer of the limatic system. Oh boy, you just don't mess around with that. No. Mark asked him if Florence knew, and Jean Claude said no. He asked Mark to promise not to tell her, but Mark said he couldn't make that promise. Florence deserved to know. The next semester, Jean claud seemingly was back to normal. He was back at university taking classes at least as far as anyone could tell, and he was seeing his friends again. His lie about the cancer worked out well for him because he and Florence got back together, maybe because she felt sorry for him. After some time passed, he told people that his cancer was in remission and that it wasn't mentioned again. Well, that's good news, not really. In France, medical education generally takes nine or ten years of post secondary studies. Jean Claude couldn't take his third year classes because he hadn't passed the exam, but there was nothing stopping him from enrolling again as

20:38 a second year student, so that's what he did, and in fact he did that for the next ten years. He would enroll again as a second year but a ten classes along with his friends, show up at the library and study for exams along with his friends. He would actually show up for exams and put in an appearance at the beginning, but then he would slip out unnoticed and come back at the end of the exam time hatching like he had taken it along with everyone else. Clinical training was done in smaller teams at various hospitals. He couldn't participate in that training without it being noticed, so he just told his friends that he was at different hospitals than them.

21:19 Essentially, Jean Claude completed the entire course of studies except for taking exams and doing the clinical work. He certainly would in almost as much work as he would have needed to to actually complete his degree. So it's pretty crazy that he chose to fake it. It's insane. It's just it's yeah, hast taking that. Like you think he was just had super I think, you know, after he missed it one time, then he missed it a second time, and I think, I don't know, I guess he just couldn't face it, Like he couldn't he couldn't just face it and basically admit that he had screwed up, and you know, he needed to take it again. So I still have nightmares, I'm not kidding about college and like missing exams and like I'd go back to college and someone else is living in my dorm room, Like all the time I have those nightmares. They would have to. It would cause a lot of stress, But I would have to imagine there was more stress in lying for ten years that you were, like, you know, in school with all your friends doing the same thing that they were just Yeah, and did he have unlimited resources to pay? I mean it can't be cheap. Yeah, I think his parents helped him out a lot. Finally, in nineteen eighty six, after ten years of faking his way through school, there was a new department head appointed at the medical school, she noticed that there was this guy who had been registering as a second year student for ten years. She checked into it, and basically there was no rule at the university preventing someone from doing this, So she summoned Jean Claude to her office to speak with him. But, sensing that his

22:49 little game was up, Jean Claude didn't show up for the meeting and then stopped registering after that. By then, he had been doing it long enough that he could plausibly lie to his friends that he had completed his degree anyway, which is exactly what he did. Meanwhile, Florence had taken her second year examine failed so she decided to switch and study pharmacology. She was disappointed, but she knew that Jean Claud would make a great doctor because he was so hard working, so smart and ambitious. Everyone thought, this guy is definitely going places, no boy. Two years after they got back together, Jean Claude and Florence got engaged, and then they got married in nineteen eighty.

23:30 The next year, Florence finished her studies and started working as a pharmacist. A few years after that, Jean Claud completed his studies, at least that's what Florence and everyone else believed, and he landed a job as a researcher at the World Health Organization. Or at least that's what everyone believed. The couple moved to a town called Ferne Voltaire, which was close to the Swiss border. That would be convenient for Jean Claud as the World Health Organization was located just over the border in Geneva, smiles away. Coincidentally, their friend Mark and his family also moved to the same town where he took over his dad's medical practice. Mark and his wife had a baby girl and asked Jean Claude and Florence to be her godparents. Soon, Jean Claude and Florence had a girl of their own, Caroline, who was born in nineteen eighty five, and then two years later they had a son, Antoine. It seemed like a perfect life. Jean Claude was a well respected researcher for the World Health Organization. Florence worked part time at a local pharmacy and full time as a mom to their two kids. They had a close circle of friends and family not far away. At this point, you might be wondering three things. First, what did Jean Claud actually do all day if he wasn't actually employed at the World Health Organization? Second? How did he cover this up for so long somewhere around eight years that he was supposedly working there before it all came crashing down? And finally, where was the money coming from to support the family? Those were all questions that I was wondering. Let's

25:03 start with the first question, what did he do all day if he wasn't actually working. In the mornings, Jean Claud would drive the children to school and then head over to the World Health Organization's headquarters. The thing about WHO headquarters is that there are parts of it that are open to the public, for example, the library on the ground floor. In the beginning, Jean Claud would show up most days, walk in with a briefcase, get a visitor's badge, and hang out in the library, or go to the publication's office and pick up any printed materials that he found lying around that had the WHO logo on them. He would then leave these materials lying around in his car or in their house. Apparently, to make his fake job look more believable, he sent mail from the WHO post Office, he used the WHO Bank, and he planned family vacations through the WHO Travel Agency, all services that were available to the general public. As time went on, though, Jean Claud went to WHO headquarters less regularly. Instead, he would stop and buy some newspapers, head to a cafe, and then sit and read his papers for hours at a time. He would switch cafes regularly so as not to arouse suspicion, and he chose cafes that were far from home where he was unlikely to run into anyone that he knew. Some days he would park at a highway rest stop and just sit for hours, reading and dozing off.

26:26 Occasionally he'd stroll around different villages, visit bookstores, drive to the Jura mountains and go walking in the forest, or maybe stop for a glass of wine somewhere. Overall, it doesn't sound like too bad of a life, right, just kind of hanging out, maybe a little lonely, though I think it sounds so just the lies on the deceit, and it would just like he would have to make up stories. When he came home to his wife. He'd be like, oh, you wouldn't believe the patient I had today, or don't you think he would have to do that, Yeah, definitely think it would just be exhausting and really you just want to stand by all day. But he'd, you know, yeah, get up and get up and pretend you're going to work. On Thursdays, he supposedly taught a course in Dijon which was well Mustard. I maybe I don't know. I think they. I think in Djon they know everything there is to know about mustard already, so probably, I mean, there's different Mustards than just Dijon Rich True. Well, Dijon was one hundred and twenty miles from home, and on those days he would visit his parents, who lived on the way to Djon, and he would tell them all about the important work that he was doing researching arteriosclerosis, attending international conferences, and hobnobbing with politicians to influence public health policy. They were so proud of him, speaking of conferences.

27:47 When there was a conference that a researcher of his stature would naturally attend, he would pack his suitcase and drive to the airport. But instead of getting on a plane, he would check into a hotel near the airport and spend three or four days in his room, just chilling out, watching TV, reading, looking out the window at planes taking off and landing. They would have to get so boring after three or four days just sitting in a hotel room. That's not what you do. No, No, I usually have things to do if I'm traveling, you know. He would get the conference agendas and he would study them long enough so that he could drop a mention or two about the event that would sound plausible. He would call Florence and the kids every day, telling them what time it was in whatever part of the world he was supposedly at and how the weather was, and then he would swing into the airport gift shop to pick up some souvenirs and head back home, where the family would give him time to recover from his jet lag.

28:42 The second question, how did he cover it up for so long? The main thing was Jean Claude kept a strict separation between his work life and his home life. He told people that he was researching arteriosclerosis and that he taught at the University of Dijon day a week, but otherwise he didn't like talking about his work. People thought he was just modest and didn't like to brag. He also made it clear to Florence that he was not to be bothered at work. She didn't have a phone number for his office at the WHO. Jean Claude had an answering service through the phone company. If Florence needed to reach him, she could leave a message there and they would page him so he would call her back when he was free. She never really questioned it, although sometimes she would joke quote, one of these days, I'm going to find out that my husband's a Communist spy. After each of the kids was born, Jean Claude brought home nice gifts that he said were from his bosses at the WHO. Florence wrote thank you notes, which Jean Claude said he delivered. As the kids got a little older, they were proud of their father, who was seen as an important researcher, helping to invent medicines that would help people. One time, the family was driving in Switzerland and the kids were like, Papa, we want to see where you work. Jean claud said, sure, so he drove them to the WHO parking lot and pointed to where his office was, but they didn't get to go in. So where did the money come from? When they first moved

30:14 to Fernie Voltaire. Jean Claud and Florence lived modestly in a small, two bedroom apartment, but as the kids got a little older, friends would tell Jean Claude they needed to get a bigger place. For a time, Jean Claud put them off by saying that he wasn't sure how long he would be living in the area he might have to relocate abroad due to his very important job. But eventually they did buy a house. Do you think you just told that to people at parties? I have a very important job. Yes, I think so. For the twelve years or so that he was supposedly going to college, Jean Claud's parents supported him. They bought him a studio apartment and a car, and he had access to their bank account for spending money. After he graduated, Jean Claud continued to access their bank account, and his parents either didn't notice or didn't seem to mind. When he and Florence moved from Leone after college, Jean Claud sold the studio apartment for about three hundred thousand francs. As best as we can tell, that would be about forty thousand US dollars at the time, or one hundred and fifteen thousand dollars today. Rather than giving that money back to his generous parents, though, he just pocketed the proceeds. Then, soon after he started working at the WHO, he let his family and friends know that because of his position and being located in Switzerland, that he had an opportunity to invest money and get an eighteen percent return guaranteed, and if his family put their money in a Swiss bank account, they could avoid paying taxes. Jean claud seemed so

31:47 trustworthy that people gave him their money, no questions asked. That's horrible, it is horrible. His parents let him take their entire Oh no, his parents let him take their entire retirement savings and invest it for them. His uncle gave him money, and when Florence's dad decided to take a retirement buy out from his work, Jean Claude was there to help him invest his money wisely as well. No one ever saw an account statement or any verification of where their money was actually at. That's horrible, it's really horrible. Yes, and so he was probably investing like nothing at all, or did he invest. No, this money was just funding his life. This was his income really, which is just terrible. He took all these money from all these people and just spent it over time. Oh wow. In nineteen eighty eight, though, Florence's dad, Pierre, decided he'd worked hard all his life and he should buy something nice with part of his retirement savings of Mercedes, so he told John Claude that he wanted to withdraw some of his money.

32:52 However, before Pierre got any of his money back, he had a tragic accident falling down the stairs. The only person with him at the time that he fell. I bet you can guess it was Jean Claude romand well, my goodness. So he was like, well, I guess we know from the introduction what is going to happen that's so horrible. Well, we don't know for sure if Jean Claude killed his father in law or not. When the paramedics arrived, they heard Pierre stammer Jean Claude MA, which basically is, Jean Claude blanked me. He didn't get the verb out before Jean Claude jumped into help by putting an oxygen mask on him. He could have been trying to say Jean claud pushed me, or maybe he was saying, Jean Claud saved me or Jean Claude found me, we don't know, And unfortunately, he died a few days later without ever waking up. Investigators ruled it an accident, and Jean Claud kindly organized a fundraiser for the family, but I don't think they ever saw the money. Not only not only did Jean Claud benefit from the fundraiser, but after Pierre died, Florence's mom sold their house, and because Jean Claude was now considered the head of the family, she gave him all the proceeds of the sale to invest Jean Claude saw another opportunity when he found out that Florence's uncle was suffering from an incurable form of cancer. Jean Claud told Florence's aunt and uncle that he just happened to be researching a new drug that might reverse the disease. The drug wasn't commercially available yet, but Jean Claud just might be able to get it for them

34:25 if they could pay the production costs, which were about thirty thousand francs per dose. The couple was desperate, and of course, they dipped into their savings to pay Jean Claud for the treatment, and then again for a second dose later on. The pills that Jean Claud provided, of course, had no effect, and Florence's uncle died. Anyway, let's take a break, We'll be right back. Welcome back, thanks, Welcome back to you too. So sometime around nineteen eighty a couple moved into the apartment above Mark and his family. Remi Hurtin was a psychiatrist and his wife, Corene was a child psychologist. The couple shared an office together in Geneva, and soon after moving in they became part of the circle of friends with Mark, his wife, Jean Claude, and Florence, and a few other couples. Their friends quickly realized that Remy and Kreine were having marital problems and that neither was above having an occasional fling outside of their marriage. It was a bit scandalous.

35:30 Eventually they split up and Coreen moved to Paris with their two daughters. Most of the friend group took Remy's side since he was still living there in the village, but Florence remained friends with Corene, so she and John Claude would call her up whenever they went to Paris and they would have dinner together. Do you think that the French are more permissive when it comes to affairs. I don't know. I guess that's what kind of a popular stereotype would Lee'd one to believe. But I have no I have no evidence one way or another. Okay, we paused and I looked up the information. This is an old graph that I found. It's from twenty thirteen, so over ten years ago, and it has the percentage of people that say that married people having an affair is morally unacceptable. And it has probably like thirty different countries here, and at the very top of it is France at forty seven percent.

36:28 They say it's it's not it's morally acceptable, they have an affair. Wow, I'm just going to read a few other countries just so you know. So France forty seven percent of the population say it's unacceptable, Japan is it sixty nine percent, Russia is at sixty nine percent, Mexico is at seventy three percent, China is at seventy four percent, Canada seventy six percent, Australia seventy nine percent, South Korea eighty one percent. Just to give you an idea where it's going the US is at eighty four percent of people say it's morally unacceptable. So we're so uptight, aren't we. I think we believe in mirrital fideli it would be another way to say that. And at the bottom of the chart we have like Pakistan, Egypt, Jordan, Indonesia, Turkey and Palestine at veering between ninety two and ninety four percent.

37:25 So kind of interesting. Yeah. At one point, Jean Claude sent Corene a bouquet of flowers and said that he was going to be in Paris for a conference and asked if he could take her out to dinner. She was surprised, but she said yes. He took her to a fancy restaurant and he shared more than he had ever shared before about his research career. This also surprised here because he had never really talked about it much before, and she started to think that maybe there was more to Jean claud than she had realized. He came back to Paris a couple of weeks later took her out to dinner again, and this time he confessed that he was in love with her. She was shocked but also flattered, but she turned him away.

38:06 The next day, he called and apologized, but he also dropped off a package containing some expensive jewelry for her. After that, he started coming to Paris one night a week, telling both Kreine and Florence that he was working on some important project at an institute in Paris. He became almost obsessed with Corene and could think of nothing else. In the spring of nineteen ninety, they had sex for the first time. Florence and John Claude. They have this group of friends and they're all like professionals, right, they're doctors, and it's I guess he had the training, so he could probably speak intelligently. Oh yeah, his group of friends. Yeah, I think he was very knowledgeable about when they were probably asking him, well, what are you researching? And yeah. I think he just didn't want to talk about it.

38:49 I think he tried he intentionally top secret. I think he would just be like, act like he was modest. I don't want to talk about that, you know, that's just my work or whatever. While he had been fairly cautious about spending too much money, with his newfound obsession, he became much more extravagant. He was spending money on expensive hotels and restaurant in Paris. Along with gifts for Karine, he bought himself a range rover, lost some weight and started dressing inexpensive clothing. I will be very suspicious, so you know, if you start dressing better, yeah, it's not gonna happen. In August of nineteen ninety, Jean Claud and Karine went to Rome together. The trip did not turn out well. On their final day together, Karine told Jean Claud that she didn't love him. She said she found him to be too sad. He cried and begged her. She tried to let him down gently and promised she still wanted to be friends with him.

39:45 They came back from Rome, then Jean Claud joined Florence and the kids for a holiday near where his parents lived. Jean Claud was distraught over Karine and one day went out into the mountains, apparently with the intent to kill himself by jumping into a ravine, but he got caught up in the overgrown branches by the ravine, so he only ended up getting cut up by the brush. Instead of going back to see Florence, he drove an hour in forty five minutes to leone then called Florence to tell her that he had been in a car accident and had to be airlifted by helicopter to a hospital in Switzerland. Florence wanted to rush to the hospital, but he said, don't worry. It's not that bad. I'll be fine. He said he had been driving a World Health Organization company car, which would explain why his own car was not damaged. He returned home the next day with his face all scratched up from the branches. Florence tried to comfort him because he was clearly upset.

40:43 He told her that he'd gotten into the accident because he'd just gotten some terrible news. His supervisor at the WHO, who had been battling cancer for several years, had just died. He cried all night low. He's ridiculous. He is totally ridiculous. He cried all night long, and it surprised Florence how much he must have cared for his coworker that he'd never each even mentioned before Good Boy. Around this time, Jean Claud called his friend Mark and told him he thought he was having a heart attack, but he didn't want to go to the hospital. He went over to Mark's house or Mark gave him a quick examination and said he believed that Jean Claud was having a panic attack. So Mark was like, sure, you're having a heart attack, drive on over. I don't know if he gave him a choice.

41:30 He asked Jean Claude, Well, I'm just saying he should have been driving if he thought he was having a heart attack. Yeah. True, He asked Jean Claude, what was going on? So Jean Claude told Mark about the affair with Karine. Mark, who was also good friends with Florence, blew up at Jean Claud and made him promise to break things off with Karine and to tell Florence everything. He said that if Jean Claud wouldn't do it, then he would tell Florence himself. Jean Claud promised he would do the right thing. Yeah, right, as Jean Claud usually does. But of course, before that happened, Jean Claud announced to everyone that his cancer had returned, this time in the form of Hodgkins's disease. He told Florence that his cancer treatments were exhausting, so he no longer went to work every day.

42:15 Instead, he would often spend the day in bed, reading and dozing off. It was a lot like college. When he got depressed over Florence dumping him, He sunk into a depression and he didn't have the drive or the motivation to do much of anything. He hadn't talked to Kreine for months since their trip to Rome, but he finally worked up the nerve to call her, and she seemed happy to hear from him. She was actually going through a hard time with a relationship and with her work, and he was a good listener. Soon he was traveling back to Paris regularly, taking her out to expensive dinners and buying her expensive gifts again. Jean Claude and Karine took a trip to Leningrad, Russia together, but much like their earlier trip to Rome, it ended badly. Kareine told him it had been a mistake and they should just be friends again, causing Jean Claud to weep and plead with her. On the flight home, he told her it didn't matter because he had cancer and would probably be dead soon anyway. They parted ways, promising to remain friends once again, and they did talk regularly after that, and one day Kareine told Jean Claud she needed his advice. She and her ex had sold their office in Geneva and she had received nine hundred thousand francs from the sale. Oh no, yeah, you can see where this is going. How much it's a little bit hard to say because Franks don't really exist anymore. France is now in the Europe I think I think it's probably around one hundred thousand dollars. So she wanted to invest that money, and she wondered if Jean Claude had any ideas, and of course he did.

43:46 He flew to Paris right away and went to the bank with her so that she could get the cash, which he then took with him back home. This was a different situation than the relatives who had given him money for long term Investingin' said she would want the money back relatively soon, because she was probably going to buy a new office. John Claude said, no problems, She could get it back whenever she needed it. So this is someone that he is in love with and he's still willing to take her money and manipulate her. Yeah. I think he was starting to get desperate by this time, because I think the money he was starting to run out, and so he was looking for a new source of income wherever he could get it. So you said that he never gave anyone a statement or anything. It's just crazy that. Yeah. People just I mean, if you I'll show you pictures of this guy. Not that the not that you know, someone's appearance means anything, but he just looks like a boring, regular guy. He looks like an accountant or something. He just looks like a you know, average guy that you could trust with anything. And I think that's what people just looked at him that way. I would just think if someone had, you know, our entire retirement account, I would ask him from time to time, how much money do we have? Yeah, how is our investment going? I'm sure people did. He probably said just great, everything's gone great, no problem. During the summer of nineteen ninety two, there was a bit of a scandal at the Catholic school where Jean Claude's and Florence's kids, along with Mark Vital Durand's kids went. The school principal, who was

45:21 married and had four children, had an affair with one of the teachers who was also married, and news of the affair somehow got out. Florence was the vice president of the parents' association at the school, which organized various activities. Mark and Jean Claude were on the school's administrative board. Florence was of the opinion that the affair was a personal matter and shouldn't be caused for removing the principle, and that view prevailed throughout the parents' association, but the administrative board met and voted unanimously Jean claud included to replace the principle, even though he quietly went along with the vote. Jean Claude, knowing how Florence felt about the situation, told her that he had strongly objected to ousting the principle and that he had voted against it. Florence was proud of him for taking a stand. This disagreement between the parents Association and the administrative board of the school caused a bit of a feud, and it created a little bit of a rift between Mark and the Romans. Months later, just before Christmas, Mark saw Florence at church and decided he wanted to try to bury the hatchet.

46:30 He went and talked to her, and Florence was conciliatory, but when Mark mentioned something about the vote being unanimous, including Jean Claude. Florence was surprised, and she kept saying quote, so he lied to me. He lied to me, hmm. And then shortly after that, Florence was talking to another mom from school whose husband happened to work at the World Health Organization. This other woman mentioned something about the annual WHO Christmas party for employees and their families and was wondering if Florence was going to bring Caroline and Antoine. The look on Florence's face spoke volumes. She had obviously never heard of this party in all the years that Jean Claude had supposedly worked at the WHO.

47:13 Another thing happened right around Christmas time of nineteen ninety two that must have caused Florence to question the truth about her husband. The president of the school board wanted to talk to Jean Claude about the situation with the principal. He didn't think anything of calling the World Health Organization, where he knew Jean Claud worked to try and reach him, but he was really confused when no one was able to find Jean Claud in the directory. Shortly after christmasification ended, he ran into Florence and mentioned to her that he had tried and failed to reach Jean Claud at his work. Florence said, that's strange. She would have to ask Jean Claud about it. Unfortunately, Florence would be dead in less than a week, so it's not clear whether she ever asked him about it.

48:00 John Claude must have known, with all these different things happening, that the walls were closing in on him. He had spent all of the money given to him by his parents, his uncle, Florence's mom. He was quickly going through the money that Karine had given him as well. Florence seemed suspicious, and his bank accounts would soon be overdrawn. I just get anxiety reading these stories, I know. In early January, his mom phoned him upset because she received a bank statement showing an overdraft. Jean Claude said it was a mix up and he just needed to transfer money from another account to top it off. Kareine, whose friends had told her that she was crazy for giving her money to some guy without any paperwork, decided she wanted her money back. Jean Claude avoided her calls for as long as he could, then he tried to talk her out of it. Saying there would be a penalty for early withdrawal, but her mind was made up. He tried to put her off by saying that he was bedridden due to the cancer and he wouldn't be able to travel to Paris, but finally he agreed to come to Paris and give her her money back. He told Karin he was good friends with Bernard Kouchner, who was well known in France as the founder of Doctors without Boarders and also the former French Minister of Foreign and European Affairs. Jean claud said he was supposed to go to a dinner party at the Kouchner's home in January. Maybe Karine would like to go with him and he could give her back her money. Then Karine said absolutely, she was excited about meeting

49:30 him. The date set for the dinner party was January ninth, nineteen ninety three. With the walls closing in on him, Jean Claude's thoughts turned to suicide. On Tuesday, January fifth, he went to the pharmacy where Florence worked part time and talked to the owner, who was a friend of theirs. He told the pharmacist that he needed a particular barbituate combined with an anti emitic drug for some research that he was doing on cell cultures. Obviously, this was not an ordinary that a researcher would procure drugs for research, but the pharmacist knew and trusted Jean Claude, so he said no problem, he would have the order ready by Friday. On Wednesday, Jean Claud went to a gun shop and bought a stun wand also known as a stun baton, two pepper spray canisters and a box of cartridges, and a silencer for a twenty two caliber rifle. Thursday was the day that Jean Claud supposedly taught his class in Leone and always stopped to visit his parents. He did that as usual, and while he was there he got a twenty two caliber rifle from his parents' gun safe and took it back home with him. Before heading home, he called Karine to remind her of the dinner party at Bernard Kouchner's house on Saturday evening. On Friday, Jean Claude drove the kids to school, bought a newspaper and some croissants, and then went to the pharmacy to pick up his barbiturates along with some chewing gum. He swung by the supermarket where he bought two Jerry Camps, which are big five point three gallon gas cans,

51:04 and then he stopped at the gas station on his way home to fill them up. After school was done, Jean Claude, Florence, and the kids went to a shopping center over the border in Switzerland, where they bought a Lego set as a gift for one of the children's friends who was having a birthday party the next day. They had dinner in the cafeteria at the shopping center, then came home. Antoine and Caroline made some art to go with the gift that they had bought, and then they went to bed. Florence talked to her mother on the phone for a long time that evening. Her mother was sad, which made Florence sad as well. She was crying when she hung up, so Jean Claude comforted her. We don't know exactly what happened after that. It's believed that Jean Claude and Florence had a fight about what. We don't know. It's possible that she called him out on the lies that she had learned about recently. We know that her autopsy a couple of days later showed a blood alcohol level of point two, which is quite high, and we also know that Lawrence rarely drank at most a glass of wine or two, so it's possible that she drank a lot that night as they were arguing. It's believed that Florence fell asleep while Jean Claude sat up most of the night racking his brain about how to get out of the mess that he had made. The money was nearly gone, he had no other sources to get more, and people were getting very close to learning the truth. Nearing dawn, with no way out that he could see, he took a rolling pin and bashed Florence's skull in from behind while she was sleeping.

52:31 He then washed the rolling pin and put it away. Soon after he killed Florence, the phone rang. It was a friend calling to see if Florence could help out at church that evening. Jean Claude said probably not, because they were planning to go see his parents. He offered to go and get Florence, but the friend said there was no need. The phone ringing woke the children up. He told them their mom was sleeping and put in a tape of the Three Little Pigs cartoon, got them bowls of Coco pop, and sat with them on the couch while they watched their show. After about an hour, Caroline said she was cold and was going upstairs to get a bathrobe. Jean Claude said he thought maybe she had a fever, so he went upstairs with her to check. He told her to lie down in the bed and put the pillow over her head. It was a game, he said. Then he went and got his rifle with a silencer on it and shot her through the pillow, killing her. Then he called Antoine up and repeated the same thing with him. Oh my god, that's horrible.

53:30 I know, I don't know how. I just can't imagine how someone could do that. It was now Saturday morning. After killing his wife and two children, Jean Claud put the rifle in his car and drove to pick up some newspapers. The newspaper vendor later said that Jean Claud seemed completely normal. Jean Claud then made the hour and a half drive to his parents' house. They had lunch together at their house, and then Jean Claude asked his dad to come upstairs with him. His dad had complained about an air vent that was smelling funny, and so Jean Claude asked his dad to show him where it was. After going upstairs, his dad knelt down to show him the vent, and Jean Claude shot him twice in the back, killing him. Because he used the silencer, his mother had probably not heard the shots.

54:15 He went downstairs and asked his mother to come to the sitting room with him, which is where he shot her. She was the only one of his victims shot from the front, so it's likely that she was walking into the sitting room and then unexpectedly turned around as he was pointing the gun at her. The dog was acting frantic after that, running back and forth between the two bodies, and so Jean Claud shot the dog too. Then he cleaned the rifle and put it back in the gun rack at his parents' house before driving off around two pm. From there, Jean Claud drove to Paris, normally a five hour drive, but he hit some traffic so it took longer than usual. He picked up Karine to go to Bernard Kouchner's dinner party.

54:55 In the car, Karine asked for her money. Jean Claud apologized profuse saying he ran out of time to get to the bank in Geneva, but he promised her he would get her money first thing Monday morning and then fly to Paris to give it to her. Kureene was annoyed, but she let it go because she was excited about the dinner. So he's just killed the five people in the world that you would think he loved the most, and a poor dog, and he just goes about his day. I know, it's hard to fathom, isn't it. It's just sick. He had a map with a spot marked on it where he said Kouchner lived, but he drove there and then said it must have been wrong. He kept driving around until he was lost. He said he had Kouchner's phone number written down somewhere, but he couldn't seem to find it. While they were driving around, he told Karen that he and Florence were going to separate and that he had a new apartment, which he described to her in great detail. They had been driving around for a couple of hours, by which time Karine was getting more and more annoyed. Around ten thirty pm, Jean Claude stopped at a rest area and said he was going to look in the trunk for the piece of paper where he had written Couch his phone number. He rummaged around in the trunk for a bit and told her he couldn't find it, but he had found a necklace that he had wanted to give to her. He asked her to get out of the car so he could put it on her. She was super irritated by this point, but he insisted, and so she finally said fine, and she got out of the car. He told her to close her eyes while he put the necklace on her. She did, but instead of surprising her with a necklace, he surprised her by spraying the pepper

56:25 spray in her face and then zapping her in the stomach with the stun gun. She tried to open her eyes, but it stung. She believed he was going to kill her, and so she screamed, don't kill me, think of my daughters. She opened her eyes and looked him in the eye, which seemed to stop his attack. She sat back down in the car, as did he, and they washed the pepper spray out of their eyes with some bottled water. He then drove back toward her apartment. As they were driving, she was thinking what in the hell just happened. He tried to gaslight her into believing that she had started this fight, but she wasn't buying it. They came to a village and Jean Claude said he was going to call Bernard Kouchner to apologize for not making it to the party. After he supposedly made the call from a payphone, he came back to the car and drove her home. They had driven so far that it took a couple of hours to get back. The whole time, Corene was worried that he would attack her again. She used her training as a psychologist to gently question him and try to understand what happened. He blamed it on his battle with cancer, saying it was driving him crazy and that he was having blackout periods where he didn't remember anything. She told him he should go see a psychiatrist and that she would be happy to recommend someone. He finally dropped her off at her apartment around one am and made her promise not to tell anyone about what had happened. Five minutes later, after he dropped her off, he called her from a payphone, saying that what had happened wasn't planned or premeditated.

57:53 He said, quote, if I'd wanted to kill you, I'd have done it in your apartment, and i'd have killed your girls too. Oh my gosh, can you imagine? Like she didn't obviously know anything about what he had done earlier, killing his family and everything, But after she found out about that, can you imagine how freaked out that must have made her? Like, I can't believe she could have been his Yeah, Yeah, I can't believe she survived. Yeah. He arrived back home around sunrise Sunday morning, after stopping at a rest area along the way for a nap. With the bodies of Florence, Caroline, and Antoine upstairs. John Claude checked the answering machine for messages and then took a nap on the couch. How do you do that? At around eleven am, he started worrying that one of their friends might see his car in the driveway and stop him to say hello, So he drove his car to a nearby shopping center, parked it, and walked back home. Then he popped a tape in the VCR and spent the next three hours, recording bits and pieces of different programs, and he turned the channels on the TV every few seconds. We don't know why he did this, but that's what he did between one and four pm, doing like a foam alone type thing where you know, like how so the sounds could be playing from the TV like someone was home. Channel has no idea. I can only imagine that he was just like, I don't know.

59:15 He must have been in a bizarre state of mind at this point. Between four and seven pm, he called Karine nine times, leaving her short messages on the machine. He called a tenth time and she picked up. She told him she was still in pain from Jean Claude's attack the night before. He apologized and told her how depressed he was. She said she wouldn't go to the police and made him promise to bring her the money. On Monday, sometime after midnight, Jean Claude poured out the gas from the jerry cans. He poured some of it in the attic, then some on the children's bodies, some on Florence's body, and some on the stairs. He put on his pajamas and then ignited the areas where he had poured the gasoline.

59:57 For some reason, he didn't take the barbituates that he had gotten a couple of days early at the pharmacy. Instead, he took about twenty nemputal capsules, which is a sedative, that were about ten years past their expiration date. He went to lie down next to Florence, but his eyes started stinging and he was having trouble breathing, so he dragged himself to the window and opened it just as the firemen were arriving. Then he passed out as they were raising their ladder up to rescue him. While Jean Claud's friend Mark fettel Durand had originally prayed for Jean Claud to die because Mark knew that he wouldn't want to live without his family. Now that he knew the truth, he prayed for Jean Claud to die because of what he did, but it was not to be. Three days after the fire, it became apparent that Jean Claude was going to survive. After he was conscious again, the police interrogated him. He initially denied everything, saying a mysterious man dressed in black had broken into the house, shot the children, and set the house on fire, it was ridiculous, and knowing that there was no hiding from the truth, Jean Claude eventually confessed. Psychiatrists evaluated him. They noted that he was emotionless when speaking about Florence and the children, although later he would act overwrought with emotion when speaking about them. They were convinced that it was just an act. In the end, Jean Claude had decided that it was better for his family to all die rather than to learn the truth that his entire

1:01:28 adult life had been a lie. In his twisted logic, he was protecting them. I think that's really what he believed, like or what he told himself anyway. I think that's happened so often in these cases with family annihilators. It's like it's all about their ego. Yeah, world revolves around them. At his trial, there was no question about what he did. The only real issue that came into focus was whether he actually was trying to commit suicide or not. He started the fun in the attic where the flames were likely to be seen. Quickly, he took pills that were ten years beyond their expiration date, and he did it right as the firemen were arriving, and he opened the bedroom window as they arrived, so it seemed like his suicide attempt was maybe just a way to try to earn some sympathy. The other question that was raised during the trial was whether Jean Claud had also killed his father in law, Pierre Crolet. Remember, Pierre had asked Jean Claude to give some of his money back, and shortly after that fell down the stairs and died while Jean Claude was there. An investigation into his death was reopened, but no evidence could be found to reverse the earlier decision that it was an accident. For his part, Jean Claud swore that he didn't kill Florence's dad, saying, quote, I want to tell Florence's mother and brothers that her father died as a result of his fall. I don't ask them to believe me because I have no proof, but I say it before Florence and before God, because I know that an unconfessed crime will not be forgiven

1:02:59 unquote. Before the court retired to deliberate, Jean Claude was allowed to make a statement. In his statement, he asked for forgiveness from those that he caused suffering and he spoke to the family members he killed, saying they were in his heart. After five hours of deliberation, Jean Claud was sentenced to life imprisonment with the possibility of parole after twenty two years. That would mean that the earliest he could be released would be in twenty fifteen, when he was sixty one years old. In prison, Jean Claud feared that he would be assaulted because he was a child murderer, but amazingly, a gang leader in prison recognized Jean Claude and took him under his protection. Years earlier in the outside world, this gang leader had been hitchhiking, and Jean Claud had picked him up and given him two hundred francs to buy a good meal.

1:03:49 It turned out that Jean Claude was basically a celebrity in prison. I know the rest of this story is going to make you really mad. Difficult prisoners would be paired up with Jean Claud as their cellmate because he had a calming influence on them. Shockingly, Roman did get paroled from prison in twenty nineteen, after twenty six years behind bars, at age sixty five. He had to show the parole board that he had a place to live when he was released, and a monastery in the western part of France, about six hours from where he committed his crimes, had agreed to take him in. At the time of his release, Florence's brother said, quote, the word free is hard to hear for me. He's won unquote. Jean Claude was required to remain under electronic surveillance for two years after his release, and he is barred from talking to the media about his crimes. Assuming he's still alive.

1:04:44 He is seventy years old now and completely free. I don't know what he's been up to since his release, or if he is still living at the monastery, but I can only hope that he is a miserable, miserable person, because he does not deserve any happiness in life. And I can't even believe that he was paroled. I mean, I know laws are different in different countries and sentencing is different, but for what he did, it's just horrendous crimes. Yeah. Annuel Correy, who is a well known French writer, became fascinated by Jean Claude's story and wrote him a letter with a proposal to write a book with Jean Claude's cooperation. It took a couple of years, but Jean Claude eventually responded and corresponded with Corey over several years. The resulting book, called The Adversary, was published in two thousand. It was a bestseller and was made into a movie released in two thousand and two.

1:05:38 It's a good book, and it was my primary source for today's episode. But it was clear that Corey was conflicted about writing the book, and in the book he explores his own obsession with the story. It was an interesting book, but it did kind of it did make me a little mad, like you're kind of giving this guy as Yeah, so I had mixed feelings about the story. But that is the story of a horrible, horrible man whose entire life was a lie, and who annihilated his entire family to stop them from finding out. So rest in peace to all of his victims, Florence, Caroline, Antoine and his parents Emme and Anne Marie. Do you think his intention was to commit suicide? No, I think he was.

1:06:21 I think he was a coward, like just all in all. Maybe he in his mind he thought he wanted to commit suicide, But I think it was a pretty weak attempt. Do you know what happened to Karine? I don't know what became of Korean after this whole story. So he took like nine hundred thousand francs from her, but that was it. Yeah, I think that was it. Okay, So the rest of the we don't know what happened to the rest of the people. Well, I mean his money from his parents. Obviously he killed his parents, so so he spent his parents whole Oh yeah, retirement. Yeah, that's just devastating. I know. One of the things, there's so many things about the story that make me mad, but one that really makes me mad is the one that hit Florence's aunt and uncle. The uncle was struggling with cancer, and he gave them hope so that he could get money from them, and then he gave them a place ebo. You know. It just that makes me so mad.

1:07:16 But the whole thing makes me mad. It just yeah, this is one of those stories that I will not be able to leave behind anytime soon. Yeah, just disgusting, disgusting person. Yeah, It's like one thing to take people's money, but to take their hope and their lives is very sad. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for listening, and we did want to say before we close, if you've listened to us for a while, you know that every month we donate part of the proceeds that we get from advertising and our patron program to a charity, and this month we donated one hundred and fifty dollars to the Black and Missing Foundation. You talked about this on Instagram the other day, But there's so much attention given certain missing person's cases, and there's so many that are overlooked, and it's so many people of color minorities that go missing, and so this organization they do a great job of trying to bring the focus back to missing persons who are not covered in the media. People of color in our society go missing at a disproportionate rate, and a lot of times they are not given the attention that they deserve. We've said this before, but every single person that goes missing deserves the same amount of attention and the same amount of effort. I think a lot of times what happens is, especially with the children and the teenagers, is they're just classified as runaways and then they just don't know they know one always no one looks for them. Yeah, so I would encourage you to follow the Black and Missing Foundation on social media and then you'll see

1:08:53 it's a shocking amount of people that go go missing every day. They do a great job of updating with good news or sad news, and they keep people's names out there, which is really important. And so we really want to thank you our listeners, because really it's the ads that you listen to, or for our supporters on Patreon, it's the money that you provide that helps us make these donations. So we appreciate it. A lot of people say thank you to us all the time, like, thank you for donating, thank you for what you're doing. But I'm going to get I'm going to get to your eyed because i just get so emotional. But we are so grateful for you, our listeners, for supporting us and following us and listening to us jibber on Endlesslie. When we started, we said that we wanted to give back as much as possible, and right now we give back twenty five percent of any proceeds that we make, and there are quite a few costs that we have in producing the podcast too, So thank you so much for supporting us. Again, yes, thank you, and please rate, review, follow and subscribe. Can find us on social media or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. Consider supporting us on Patreon dot com, slash Lovemary Kill one tier five dollars a month for early ad free access and a monthly bonus episode. And until next time, don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife. Hi, I am rich. I

1:11:06 don't know why it sounds, oh god, okay, but at the prep school he was bullied and then he developed a series of sinus in sorry laughing at someone's science infectionous. I don't know what. I'm just picturing like, I don't know. He's like just I don't know, just like a mama's boy, you know, with a snivelly nose. I think that's exactly what he want