Florence and Jean-Claude Romand

WEBVTT

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I am Rich and I'm Tina.
And if there's one thing we've learned in

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over twenty years of marriage, some
days you'll feel like killing your husband,

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and some days you'll feel like killing
your wife. Welcome to love, Mary

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Kill, Hey Tina, Oh hey
Rich? Oh are you fine? Were

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you? It's been a little bit
of a bumpy starter. One of us

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hits well, we both kind of
had the giggles, which which was good,

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but then we had some technical difficulties. But we're hanging in there.

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Yeah. Yeah, So I have
a question for you. Sure. Have

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you ever told a lie and then
that lie you had to tell another lie

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to cover up the original lie,
and then before you knew it, the

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lies were spiraling out of control?
Uh, you tell me, I don't

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think. I don't think. So
I try really hard not to lie.

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I used to when I was younger. Oh my god, my yeah,

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but no, I lied a lot
to my poor mom. But you had

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to when we were kids. It's
true, you just didn't get away with

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things. I couldn't think of any
good examples from my own life. I

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was the best thing I could think
of that fits that scenario. Is I

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told this story about a year ago
the startup that I worked for, the

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CEO of our company. Like he
lied. He turned out to be a

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con man. And I kept thinking
about how that must have begun, how

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that must have began, and I
thought, I think it probably started with

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like a simple lie, Like probably
one quarter he was feeling pressure from the

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investors and he lied and said,
oh, we had some sale that we

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didn't have because he thought, oh, it'll be no problem, we'll get

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it next quarter. Well, and
he was a he was a great CEO

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until he wasn't. Yeah exactly.
And then I think probably the next quarter,

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you know, we didn't get the
deal that he thought we were going

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to get. So the lie went
on and it got worse and worse,

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and like after several months of that, he was like faking the fact that

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he had cancer and COVID and stuff
like that got really crazy. Right,

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So that's what today's story is about
a guy who started lying in college and

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his lies compounded for like eighteen years. Okay, his whole life turned out

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to be a lie. That's hard. It is hard to keep track.

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It is it's hard to even imagine. Not like his closest friends, his

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family, nobody knew the truth why. I'm watching The Traders right now on

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Peacock and it's kind of whenever I
see a reality show like that, I'm

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like, there's no way I would
be able to do that, to lie

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to so many people and have different
subsets of lies to different I just I

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couldn't do it. Hard to keep
track, It's hard to keep track.

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Well, is the today's case?
Was there initial tent malicious or benign?

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I think the initial intent was benign
and then it just spiraled out of control.

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Yeah, and do you think that's
the same as your former CEO?

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I have to believe that. Yeah. Yeah, it just started out as

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like, well, though you found
not just you, but you're fellow your

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coworkers found lies that went back to
like college though. True. Yeah,

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you're right, Like he may have
lied about other things like where he went

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to college and whether he graduated.
Yeah, if he built wells in Africa

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or so. Yeah. I think
maybe he is a pathological liar at a

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sociopath. That could be. Yeah, And I wish I wish I knew

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what happened to him. I keep
every once in a while I google his

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name because I'm like, what happened
did he flee. Did he get arrested.

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I really don't know, but I'm
really curious he changed his name and

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fled the country. I really wouldn't
be surprised. But it's going to be

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an interesting case today. And it's
based in France. So shout out to

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my colleagues. My company is actually
based in France, and I know some

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of them are listeners now because I
did a little podcasting class a couple of

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weeks ago for them. So I
should have taken that class. I want

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to apologize in advance to my colleagues
for mispronunciations, because there are going to

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be a few. Well did you
do speak a little French? I took

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one year? And oh you did? I thought you took that. I

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took one year and then I did
try to pick it up again later,

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but it just never never took.
So no, I don't. I cannot

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lay claim to speaking any French,
really, not like myself, who is

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a fluent Spanish speaker. So impressive
you are. So I have a I

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have a snack that ties into France
because so I think we talked about this

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on another episode, but we have
a subscription to a service called universal Ums,

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which they send you a box every
month and it has snacks. Did

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you hijack the Universal Well, I
was working on this case from France and

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I happened to get I know it's
cheating, but I happened to get the

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mail and there was a box from
Universal Yums and it was snacks from France.

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And I was like, well,
that is I'm not happy right now.

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You're a cheater. I think you're
gonna I think these snacks are really

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good though they look they look really
I mean, it is a fun subscription,

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but yeah, and they are not
a sponsor, by the way,

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even though they probably should be.
But yeah, there's a whole bunch of

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stuff in here. There's actually like
a whole there's like a whole book in

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here where the whole history of all
these different snacks that we got. So

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I think we mentioned mentioned it last
time we talked about Universal Yams. But

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I think it's a great gift for
a kid. Yeah. Well, there's

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a whole bunch of stuff in this
snack box, So why don't we take

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a quick break and try at least
some tips on the cheeseburger? Well,

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what'd you think? Those were perfectly
delightful snacks? Yeah, it's just kind

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of sad. When you like something, it's like, well, I'll probably

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never get that again. We had
some goat cheese potato chips, which was

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a little weird, but they were
pretty good. And then some butter some

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buttery biscuits. They were delicious.
I would I would buy those of they

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were available in the United States readily. I'm going to France a few weeks,

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so maybe I'll find some. All
right, Should we get on with

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our case? We sure should.
Today I'm going to tell you the story

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of Florence and Jean Claude Romand.
Sure. After four am on Monday,

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January eleventh, nineteen ninety three,
Mark Vital Durand received a call that there

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was a fire at the house of
one of his oldest and best friends,

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Jean Claude Romand. Mark had gone
to medical school with Jean claud many years

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earlier. While the two had taken
different paths in their career, Mark was

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a general practitioner, while Jean Claude
had become a researcher, working at the

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World Health Organization, mingling with government
officials and attending international conferences. The two

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had remained close since medical school.
They had married around the same time.

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They lived in the same town,
and their children had grown up together.

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In fact, Mark's oldest daughter had
spent the night at the Romans home just

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a few days earlier, as she
often did, Mark was thankful that she

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had not been there the night of
the fire. Mark rushed over to Jean

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Claud's home, only to find emergency
workers in the process of bringing bodies out

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of the house. Florence, jean
Claud's wife of nearly thirteen years, their

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daughter Caroline, who was seven,
and their son Antoine, who was five.

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Jean Claude, who was nearly thirty
nine years old, was still alive,

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but it wasn't certain whether or not
he would survive. Initially, everyone

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assumed the fire was the result of
a boiler accident, but as Florence's body

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was being carried out of the house, Mark stroked her hair to say goodbye,

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and he felt something strange, an
open wound at the base of her

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skull. He pointed it out to
the emergency personnel on the screen on the

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site. They said that a beam
must have fallen on her. Jean Claud

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was taken to the hospital and put
in a hyperbaric chamber. The prognosis was

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guarded. Mark prayed for Jean Claude, not that he would recover, but

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that he would never wake up from
his coma because Mark knew that family meant

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everything to Jean Claude, and that
he would not want to survive if his

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entire family was gone. Jean Claude's
elderly parents lived fifty miles away in the

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town where jean Claud grew up,
nestled in the Jura Mountains. The police

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weren't able to reach them on the
phone, so they called jean Claud's uncle,

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who lived nearby, to go over
and tell them what had happened.

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When the uncle arrived, he found
the door locked and no barking from the

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dog, which was unusual. He
was worried, so he broke into the

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house and he found jean Claud's parents
lying dead in pools of blood, along

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with the dog. They had all
been shot and killed. The initial examinations

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of jean Claud's wife, Florence,
and their two children showed that their deaths

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had not been an accident either.
Florence had died from blunt force trauma to

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the head, and the children had
both been shot and killed before the fire,

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two crimes fifty miles apart committed against
the same family. The first thought

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was that Jean Claud must have had
an enemy who wanted revenge. The police

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interviewed Jean Claud's friend Mark, who
told them everyone loved Jean Claud and his

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family. He was well respected by
everyone. He was a well known medical

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researcher at the World Health Organization just
over the border in Geneva, Switzerland,

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where he had worked for the past
ten years. He and Florence were both

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active in the community and in their
kids' school. They were considered pillars of

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the community. The next step for
the police was to make some calls to

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the World Health Organization to find out
more about Jean Claude's work there and to

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see if he may have made any
enemies. They called and eventually got passed

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to the personnel director, who told
them there was no doctor Romand who worked

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at the World Health Organization. Further
investigation found that he wasn't listed in the

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French Registry of Physicians, he wasn't
on staff at the hospitals in Paris where

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he had claimed to be, and
he hadn't even graduated from the medical school

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in lyone even though Mark and several
other friends swore he had been their attending

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classes with them the entire time.
Mark and other friends of Jean Claude's at

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first refused to believe any of this. There was just no way. Mark

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had been close friends with Jean Claude
for twenty years. He was a successful

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researcher, and his lifestyle was what
you would expect for someone of his stature.

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Wild rumors and speculations started spreading.
Maybe Jean Claude was involved in and

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illegal activities, trafficking arms, currency, drugs, or even human organs.

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Maybe he was a spy or a
member of the Russian mafia. He did

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travel a lot, including a trip
to Russia a year earlier. Who was

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Jean Claude Romand was that a rhetorical
I'm hoping you could answer it. It

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sounds like kind of a con man. So he out of you know,

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his friends, and like he didn't
have any friends that he worked with other

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than like his old college friends.
Yeah he didn't. Well, we're going

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to go through his whole past and
everything, but he never no one in

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his life knew the truth about him. Well, I have met very few

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of your coworkers and I say,
one of the last two jobs you have.

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I don't think I've met any of
your coworkers, so yeah, very

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strange, little suspicious. I think
you're setting me up to say words.

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I can't even speak English, so
I'm going to do my best here.

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Jean Claude Ramond was born in nineteen
fifty four and grew up in a village

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called Clervau la Lac close. I
think that's pretty good. Well, you'd

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do it, Clervaux le Lac,
I thought that's about it. In the

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eastern part of France, nestled in
the Jura Mountains, not far from the

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Swiss border. The Romans had lived
in the small town for generations and had

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earned their keep as foresters. They
were salt of the earth, hard working,

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god fearing people. Jean Claud was
their only child. As a child,

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Jean Claud was described as quiet,
well behaved, and an excellent student.

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He liked to read, never got
into trouble, and kept to himself

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for the most part. He was
bad at sports and intimidated by girls.

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Jean Claud admired his father's stoic nature. His mother, on the other hand,

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was anxious and always worried so Jean
Claud learned to pretend that everything was

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fine all the time because he loved
his mother and didn't want to upset her.

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So that was in the book I
read about this case. They talked

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about this, and I don't know
if it was meant to imply that that

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was the beginning of his lies because
he kept inside any troubles because he didn't

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want to upset his mother or not. But I don't know. You're more

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of a psychiatrist than I am.
Oh no, well, I think that's

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true for a lot of kids.
You just want to please your parents.

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And I don't think there's a lot
of deep seated, you know, psychological

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travelogy because of that, right,
But apparently he didn't have some issues.

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Initially, he planned to continue the
family tradition of forestry, and he entered

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a prep class to prepare for the
Forestry Commission exam. There's an exam.

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Yeah, I was surprised about that
too. But at the prep school he

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was bullied, and then he developed
a series of sinus infections which forced him

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to miss class, and he eventually
abandoned his plans for a career in forestry.

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I have a hard time getting through
that we like have the giggles today

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and it's really bad. It is
kind of it's kind of funny, like

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just like kids. Yeah, it
just sinus infections caused him to change his

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his career. But then he decided
to go to medicals. Yeah exactly,

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well, maybe he could fix his
sinuses, a decision that he thought would

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disappoint his father. I'm sorry spirit
in history to be disappointed about their child

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being a doctor, but his father
was thrilled and proud that his son was

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going to become a doctor. In
nineteen seventy three, at the age of

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nineteen, Jean Claude left to attend
university in Leone, about an hour and

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a half drive from his hometown.
One reason he may have wanted to go

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there is because Florence Crolette Crolet Crolet, who was a distant cousin he knew

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from family gatherings, was also starting
medical school in leon at the same time.

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Jean Claude later said that from the
age of fourteen, he had considered

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himself to be engaged to Florence,
although it took her a lot longer to

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commit. Huh, I thought he
was from a young age. I mean

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it was like a distant cousin,
so I think it was, you know,

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she was sort of family to him, and so maybe he felt more

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comfortable with her, gotcha. Florence
grew up in the town of Annisey,

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about ninety miles south of where Jean
claud grew up. She was the eldest

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of three children, having two younger
brothers. Her father worked for a company

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that made eyeglass frames. She was
tall and athletic, and more outgoing and

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social than Jean Claude. People who
knew her said that her Catholicism was important

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to her and that she wasn't afraid
to speak her mind. At medical school

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in Leone, Florence was very social, while Jean Claude didn't really know anyone

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other than her. Over time,
though, he worked himself into her growing

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circle of friends, which included Mark
Vital Durand, who I mentioned earlier.

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Mark was the natural leader of their
group of friends, and he grew close

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to Jean Claude, seeing him as
reliable and loyal. Jean Claude was persistent

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in his pursuit of Florence, which
irritated her. According to her college roommates,

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whenever she would go home for the
weekend. He would show up at

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the train station on Sunday night when
she returned to walk her back to her

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apartment. She was touched by how
devoted he was to her, but she

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wasn't in love with him. Eventually, though, he wore her down,

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and in the spring of nineteen seventy
five, near the end of their second

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year of studies, their relationship turned
romantic, but only for a brief time.

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Jean Claude told Florence he loved her, and they had sex for the

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first time, but after that she
told him she needed to concentrate on her

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exams and they shouldn't see each other
anymore. Do you think it was just

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one drunken night or was it this
were they starting to date? I don't

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know for sure. I feel like
maybe she felt sorry for him, or

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maybe he was just so persistent that
she had a moment of weakness and gave

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in and then afterwards regretted it and
decided it wasn't right. I think I

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had like a relationship that started like
that to accident like that they accidentally became

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my boyfriend and then yeah, talking
about me. Well, in any case,

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this sent Jean claud into a deep
depression, and it was during this

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depression that his eighteen years of fraud
and deception would begin. It began innocently

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enough. He overslept and missed taking
his second year exam. Basically, this

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is the exam that you have to
pass in order to get admitted to your

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third year, which is really where
the real medical training begins. Missing the

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exam wasn't the end of the world. You could take it again in September,

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and jean Claud didn't even need an
especially good grade to pass. Jean

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Claud's depression continued through the summer,
though Florence continued to put him off,

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saying she needed to focus on her
studies, but he heard through friends that

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she was still going out with her
friends and having fun, which made him

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feel worse. One night during that
summer, there was an incident that showed

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jean Claud's propensity for making up tall
tales. He was out with some friends

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at a nightclub when he told them
he was going out to his car to

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get his cigarettes. He was gone
for a long time, although no one

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really noticed. When he finally returned
several hours later, his shirt was torn

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and blood stained, and he seemed
really upset. He told his friends that

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some strangers had attacked him without provocation. He said they pointed a gun at

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him, took his car keys,
and made him get into the trunk before

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driving off. They drove about thirty
miles and then they stopped, pulled him

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out of the trunk, beat him
up, and then left him there with

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his car, which he then drove
back to the nightclub. He said he

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had no idea why they had done
this. His dumbfounded friends said, you

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need to file a police report,
and Jean Claude said that he would.

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However, there's no record that he
ever did, so we don't know for

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sure, but it's likely that he
made the whole story up. Why I

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don't know. Maybe he felt left
out and he wanted to draw attention to

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himself. I don't know. But
so it's such a bizarre story to even

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make up, Like, yeah,
these people just attacked me for no reason,

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and they drove me thirty mile and
left me with my car. I

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mean, it's just that is very
bizarre. I thought you were going to

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say, like he went and attacked
a woman or something like that. No.

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No. When September of nineteen seventy
five came around, it was time

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to take the exam again, but
instead of going to take the exam,

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jean Claud just laid in bed all
day. When his parents called later to

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ask how it went, he said
he did well, even missing the exam

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a second time. If jean Claude
had faced the music, he could have

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worked something out with the university,
but for whatever reason, he just couldn't

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do it. Instead, on the
day the exam grades were posted, he

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went to check the results with all
of his friends, and he told them

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he had passed and was accepted as
a third year medical student. Jean Claude's

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depression deepened, and for the next
trimester he mostly stayed in his apartment,

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which his parents had bought for him. He didn't see his friends, didn't

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answer the door if anyone came by. He basically laid in bed all day,

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surviving by eating canned foods. Around
the Christmas holidays, Mark came over

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and rang his doorbell. Jean Claud
didn't answer, but Mark wouldn't go away.

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He kept on ringing it until Jean
Claude finally answered. Mark assumed that

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jean Claud was still depressed about Florence
dumping him, which was certainly true,

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and it was how the depression began. But now Jean Claude had his whole

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school situation to add to his anxiety. Mark showed Jean Claude some tough love

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and told him he needed to snap
out of it. Well, that always

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works, right, He said that
maybe Florence would change her mind, and

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if not, there were plenty of
other girls out there. Jean Claude then

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told Mark the next in his series
of big lies. He said that he

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had been diagnosed with lymphoma or cancer
of the limatic system. Oh boy,

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you just don't mess around with that. No. Mark asked him if Florence

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knew, and Jean Claude said no. He asked Mark to promise not to

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tell her, but Mark said he
couldn't make that promise. Florence deserved to

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know. The next semester, Jean
claud seemingly was back to normal. He

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was back at university taking classes at
least as far as anyone could tell,

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and he was seeing his friends again. His lie about the cancer worked out

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well for him because he and Florence
got back together, maybe because she felt

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sorry for him. After some time
passed, he told people that his cancer

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was in remission and that it wasn't
mentioned again. Well, that's good news,

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not really. In France, medical
education generally takes nine or ten years

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of post secondary studies. Jean Claude
couldn't take his third year classes because he

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hadn't passed the exam, but there
was nothing stopping him from enrolling again as

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a second year student, so that's
what he did, and in fact he

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did that for the next ten years. He would enroll again as a second

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year but a ten classes along with
his friends, show up at the library

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and study for exams along with his
friends. He would actually show up for

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exams and put in an appearance at
the beginning, but then he would slip

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00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:03.720
out unnoticed and come back at the
end of the exam time hatching like he

302
00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:10.079
had taken it along with everyone else. Clinical training was done in smaller teams

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at various hospitals. He couldn't participate
in that training without it being noticed,

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so he just told his friends that
he was at different hospitals than them.

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00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:23.960
Essentially, Jean Claude completed the entire
course of studies except for taking exams and

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doing the clinical work. He certainly
would in almost as much work as he

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00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:33.200
would have needed to to actually complete
his degree. So it's pretty crazy that

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he chose to fake it. It's
insane. It's just it's yeah, hast

309
00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:42.119
taking that. Like you think he
was just had super I think, you

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know, after he missed it one
time, then he missed it a second

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time, and I think, I
don't know, I guess he just couldn't

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face it, Like he couldn't he
couldn't just face it and basically admit that

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he had screwed up, and you
know, he needed to take it again.

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So I still have nightmares, I'm
not kidding about college and like missing

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00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:03.799
exams and like I'd go back to
college and someone else is living in my

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dorm room, Like all the time
I have those nightmares. They would have

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to. It would cause a lot
of stress, But I would have to

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imagine there was more stress in lying
for ten years that you were, like,

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you know, in school with all
your friends doing the same thing that

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they were just Yeah, and did
he have unlimited resources to pay? I

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mean it can't be cheap. Yeah, I think his parents helped him out

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a lot. Finally, in nineteen
eighty six, after ten years of faking

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his way through school, there was
a new department head appointed at the medical

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school, she noticed that there was
this guy who had been registering as a

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second year student for ten years.
She checked into it, and basically there

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was no rule at the university preventing
someone from doing this, So she summoned

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00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:49.680
Jean Claude to her office to speak
with him. But, sensing that his

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little game was up, Jean Claude
didn't show up for the meeting and then

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stopped registering after that. By then, he had been doing it long enough

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that he could plausibly lie to his
friends that he had completed his degree anyway,

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which is exactly what he did.
Meanwhile, Florence had taken her second

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year examine failed so she decided to
switch and study pharmacology. She was disappointed,

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but she knew that Jean Claud would
make a great doctor because he was

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so hard working, so smart and
ambitious. Everyone thought, this guy is

335
00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:25.920
definitely going places, no boy.
Two years after they got back together,

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Jean Claude and Florence got engaged,
and then they got married in nineteen eighty.

337
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The next year, Florence finished her
studies and started working as a pharmacist.

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A few years after that, Jean
Claud completed his studies, at least

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00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:41.519
that's what Florence and everyone else believed, and he landed a job as a

340
00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:47.160
researcher at the World Health Organization.
Or at least that's what everyone believed.

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00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:52.079
The couple moved to a town called
Ferne Voltaire, which was close to the

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Swiss border. That would be convenient
for Jean Claud as the World Health Organization

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was located just over the border in
Geneva, smiles away. Coincidentally, their

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00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:06.599
friend Mark and his family also moved
to the same town where he took over

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his dad's medical practice. Mark and
his wife had a baby girl and asked

346
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Jean Claude and Florence to be her
godparents. Soon, Jean Claude and Florence

347
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had a girl of their own,
Caroline, who was born in nineteen eighty

348
00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:22.839
five, and then two years later
they had a son, Antoine. It

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seemed like a perfect life. Jean
Claude was a well respected researcher for the

350
00:24:27.559 --> 00:24:33.279
World Health Organization. Florence worked part
time at a local pharmacy and full time

351
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as a mom to their two kids. They had a close circle of friends

352
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and family not far away. At
this point, you might be wondering three

353
00:24:41.079 --> 00:24:45.119
things. First, what did Jean
Claud actually do all day if he wasn't

354
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actually employed at the World Health Organization? Second? How did he cover this

355
00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:53.799
up for so long somewhere around eight
years that he was supposedly working there before

356
00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:57.839
it all came crashing down? And
finally, where was the money coming from

357
00:24:57.880 --> 00:25:03.519
to support the family? Those were
all questions that I was wondering. Let's

358
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:07.599
start with the first question, what
did he do all day if he wasn't

359
00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:11.119
actually working. In the mornings,
Jean Claud would drive the children to school

360
00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:17.559
and then head over to the World
Health Organization's headquarters. The thing about WHO

361
00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:19.720
headquarters is that there are parts of
it that are open to the public,

362
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:25.160
for example, the library on the
ground floor. In the beginning, Jean

363
00:25:25.240 --> 00:25:27.839
Claud would show up most days,
walk in with a briefcase, get a

364
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:32.880
visitor's badge, and hang out in
the library, or go to the publication's

365
00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:37.240
office and pick up any printed materials
that he found lying around that had the

366
00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:41.720
WHO logo on them. He would
then leave these materials lying around in his

367
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:45.640
car or in their house. Apparently, to make his fake job look more

368
00:25:45.640 --> 00:25:51.160
believable, he sent mail from the
WHO post Office, he used the WHO

369
00:25:51.319 --> 00:25:56.039
Bank, and he planned family vacations
through the WHO Travel Agency, all services

370
00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:00.160
that were available to the general public. As time went on, though,

371
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:06.400
Jean Claud went to WHO headquarters less
regularly. Instead, he would stop and

372
00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:10.160
buy some newspapers, head to a
cafe, and then sit and read his

373
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:14.440
papers for hours at a time.
He would switch cafes regularly so as not

374
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:18.799
to arouse suspicion, and he chose
cafes that were far from home where he

375
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:22.960
was unlikely to run into anyone that
he knew. Some days he would park

376
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:26.640
at a highway rest stop and just
sit for hours, reading and dozing off.

377
00:26:26.680 --> 00:26:30.839
Occasionally he'd stroll around different villages,
visit bookstores, drive to the Jura

378
00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:34.559
mountains and go walking in the forest, or maybe stop for a glass of

379
00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:38.599
wine somewhere. Overall, it doesn't
sound like too bad of a life,

380
00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:42.000
right, just kind of hanging out, maybe a little lonely, though I

381
00:26:42.039 --> 00:26:47.279
think it sounds so just the lies
on the deceit, and it would just

382
00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:49.160
like he would have to make up
stories. When he came home to his

383
00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:52.839
wife. He'd be like, oh, you wouldn't believe the patient I had

384
00:26:52.839 --> 00:26:55.519
today, or don't you think he
would have to do that, Yeah,

385
00:26:55.680 --> 00:27:00.000
definitely think it would just be exhausting
and really you just want to stand by

386
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:03.720
all day. But he'd, you
know, yeah, get up and get

387
00:27:03.799 --> 00:27:07.519
up and pretend you're going to work. On Thursdays, he supposedly taught a

388
00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:15.200
course in Dijon which was well Mustard. I maybe I don't know. I

389
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.160
think they. I think in Djon
they know everything there is to know about

390
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:22.599
mustard already, so probably, I
mean, there's different Mustards than just Dijon

391
00:27:22.759 --> 00:27:26.440
Rich True. Well, Dijon was
one hundred and twenty miles from home,

392
00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:30.839
and on those days he would visit
his parents, who lived on the way

393
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:33.440
to Djon, and he would tell
them all about the important work that he

394
00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:41.720
was doing researching arteriosclerosis, attending international
conferences, and hobnobbing with politicians to influence

395
00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:47.759
public health policy. They were so
proud of him, speaking of conferences.

396
00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:51.960
When there was a conference that a
researcher of his stature would naturally attend,

397
00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:56.119
he would pack his suitcase and drive
to the airport. But instead of getting

398
00:27:56.119 --> 00:27:59.599
on a plane, he would check
into a hotel near the airport and spend

399
00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:02.880
three or four days in his room, just chilling out, watching TV,

400
00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:07.839
reading, looking out the window at
planes taking off and landing. They would

401
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:11.559
have to get so boring after three
or four days just sitting in a hotel

402
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:15.359
room. That's not what you do. No, No, I usually have

403
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:19.359
things to do if I'm traveling,
you know. He would get the conference

404
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:22.799
agendas and he would study them long
enough so that he could drop a mention

405
00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:26.759
or two about the event that would
sound plausible. He would call Florence and

406
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:30.119
the kids every day, telling them
what time it was in whatever part of

407
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:33.920
the world he was supposedly at and
how the weather was, and then he

408
00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:37.640
would swing into the airport gift shop
to pick up some souvenirs and head back

409
00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:41.359
home, where the family would give
him time to recover from his jet lag.

410
00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:45.720
The second question, how did he
cover it up for so long?

411
00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:49.960
The main thing was Jean Claude kept
a strict separation between his work life and

412
00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:57.000
his home life. He told people
that he was researching arteriosclerosis and that he

413
00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:02.319
taught at the University of Dijon day
a week, but otherwise he didn't like

414
00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:06.000
talking about his work. People thought
he was just modest and didn't like to

415
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:08.480
brag. He also made it clear
to Florence that he was not to be

416
00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:12.119
bothered at work. She didn't have
a phone number for his office at the

417
00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:18.640
WHO. Jean Claude had an answering
service through the phone company. If Florence

418
00:29:18.680 --> 00:29:22.599
needed to reach him, she could
leave a message there and they would page

419
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:26.359
him so he would call her back
when he was free. She never really

420
00:29:26.440 --> 00:29:30.000
questioned it, although sometimes she would
joke quote, one of these days,

421
00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:36.119
I'm going to find out that my
husband's a Communist spy. After each of

422
00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:38.400
the kids was born, Jean Claude
brought home nice gifts that he said were

423
00:29:38.440 --> 00:29:44.640
from his bosses at the WHO.
Florence wrote thank you notes, which Jean

424
00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:48.640
Claude said he delivered. As the
kids got a little older, they were

425
00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:52.319
proud of their father, who was
seen as an important researcher, helping to

426
00:29:52.359 --> 00:29:56.880
invent medicines that would help people.
One time, the family was driving in

427
00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:00.680
Switzerland and the kids were like,
Papa, we want to see where you

428
00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:04.119
work. Jean claud said, sure, so he drove them to the WHO

429
00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:08.599
parking lot and pointed to where his
office was, but they didn't get to

430
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:14.640
go in. So where did the
money come from? When they first moved

431
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:18.599
to Fernie Voltaire. Jean Claud and
Florence lived modestly in a small, two

432
00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:22.160
bedroom apartment, but as the kids
got a little older, friends would tell

433
00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:26.319
Jean Claude they needed to get a
bigger place. For a time, Jean

434
00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:30.240
Claud put them off by saying that
he wasn't sure how long he would be

435
00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:34.160
living in the area he might have
to relocate abroad due to his very important

436
00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:37.880
job. But eventually they did buy
a house. Do you think you just

437
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:41.279
told that to people at parties?
I have a very important job. Yes,

438
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:45.960
I think so. For the twelve
years or so that he was supposedly

439
00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:49.279
going to college, Jean Claud's parents
supported him. They bought him a studio

440
00:30:49.319 --> 00:30:53.160
apartment and a car, and he
had access to their bank account for spending

441
00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:59.319
money. After he graduated, Jean
Claud continued to access their bank account,

442
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:03.359
and his parents either didn't notice or
didn't seem to mind. When he and

443
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:10.160
Florence moved from Leone after college,
Jean Claud sold the studio apartment for about

444
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:14.759
three hundred thousand francs. As best
as we can tell, that would be

445
00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:18.759
about forty thousand US dollars at the
time, or one hundred and fifteen thousand

446
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:22.319
dollars today. Rather than giving that
money back to his generous parents, though,

447
00:31:22.359 --> 00:31:27.039
he just pocketed the proceeds. Then, soon after he started working at

448
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:30.759
the WHO, he let his family
and friends know that because of his position

449
00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:36.519
and being located in Switzerland, that
he had an opportunity to invest money and

450
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:41.079
get an eighteen percent return guaranteed,
and if his family put their money in

451
00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:47.279
a Swiss bank account, they could
avoid paying taxes. Jean claud seemed so

452
00:31:47.480 --> 00:31:52.160
trustworthy that people gave him their money, no questions asked. That's horrible,

453
00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:57.599
it is horrible. His parents let
him take their entire Oh no, his

454
00:31:57.640 --> 00:32:02.160
parents let him take their entire retirement
savings and invest it for them. His

455
00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:07.480
uncle gave him money, and when
Florence's dad decided to take a retirement buy

456
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:12.559
out from his work, Jean Claude
was there to help him invest his money

457
00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:17.480
wisely as well. No one ever
saw an account statement or any verification of

458
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:22.960
where their money was actually at.
That's horrible, it's really horrible. Yes,

459
00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:28.039
and so he was probably investing like
nothing at all, or did he

460
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:31.079
invest. No, this money was
just funding his life. This was his

461
00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:35.759
income really, which is just terrible. He took all these money from all

462
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:40.319
these people and just spent it over
time. Oh wow. In nineteen eighty

463
00:32:40.359 --> 00:32:44.799
eight, though, Florence's dad,
Pierre, decided he'd worked hard all his

464
00:32:44.839 --> 00:32:47.960
life and he should buy something nice
with part of his retirement savings of Mercedes,

465
00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:52.920
so he told John Claude that he
wanted to withdraw some of his money.

466
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:55.359
However, before Pierre got any of
his money back, he had a

467
00:32:55.400 --> 00:33:00.960
tragic accident falling down the stairs.
The only person with him at the time

468
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:06.359
that he fell. I bet you
can guess it was Jean Claude romand well,

469
00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:07.839
my goodness. So he was like, well, I guess we know

470
00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:14.440
from the introduction what is going to
happen that's so horrible. Well, we

471
00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:17.400
don't know for sure if Jean Claude
killed his father in law or not.

472
00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:23.240
When the paramedics arrived, they heard
Pierre stammer Jean Claude MA, which basically

473
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:29.559
is, Jean Claude blanked me.
He didn't get the verb out before Jean

474
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:32.559
Claude jumped into help by putting an
oxygen mask on him. He could have

475
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:36.640
been trying to say Jean claud pushed
me, or maybe he was saying,

476
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:39.599
Jean Claud saved me or Jean Claude
found me, we don't know, And

477
00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:45.519
unfortunately, he died a few days
later without ever waking up. Investigators ruled

478
00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:49.559
it an accident, and Jean Claud
kindly organized a fundraiser for the family,

479
00:33:49.640 --> 00:33:53.400
but I don't think they ever saw
the money. Not only not only did

480
00:33:53.480 --> 00:33:59.440
Jean Claud benefit from the fundraiser,
but after Pierre died, Florence's mom sold

481
00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:02.240
their house, and because Jean Claude
was now considered the head of the family,

482
00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:07.480
she gave him all the proceeds of
the sale to invest Jean Claude saw

483
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:13.400
another opportunity when he found out that
Florence's uncle was suffering from an incurable form

484
00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:17.000
of cancer. Jean Claud told Florence's
aunt and uncle that he just happened to

485
00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:22.000
be researching a new drug that might
reverse the disease. The drug wasn't commercially

486
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:25.119
available yet, but Jean Claud just
might be able to get it for them

487
00:34:25.159 --> 00:34:30.559
if they could pay the production costs, which were about thirty thousand francs per

488
00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:34.480
dose. The couple was desperate,
and of course, they dipped into their

489
00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:37.400
savings to pay Jean Claud for the
treatment, and then again for a second

490
00:34:37.400 --> 00:34:42.480
dose later on. The pills that
Jean Claud provided, of course, had

491
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:45.440
no effect, and Florence's uncle died. Anyway, let's take a break,

492
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:57.079
We'll be right back. Welcome back, thanks, Welcome back to you too.

493
00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:02.000
So sometime around nineteen eighty a couple
moved into the apartment above Mark and

494
00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:07.400
his family. Remi Hurtin was a
psychiatrist and his wife, Corene was a

495
00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:13.639
child psychologist. The couple shared an
office together in Geneva, and soon after

496
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:16.440
moving in they became part of the
circle of friends with Mark, his wife,

497
00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:22.039
Jean Claude, and Florence, and
a few other couples. Their friends

498
00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:27.000
quickly realized that Remy and Kreine were
having marital problems and that neither was above

499
00:35:27.079 --> 00:35:30.119
having an occasional fling outside of their
marriage. It was a bit scandalous.

500
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:37.159
Eventually they split up and Coreen moved
to Paris with their two daughters. Most

501
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:39.320
of the friend group took Remy's side
since he was still living there in the

502
00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:45.159
village, but Florence remained friends with
Corene, so she and John Claude would

503
00:35:45.159 --> 00:35:47.079
call her up whenever they went to
Paris and they would have dinner together.

504
00:35:49.239 --> 00:35:52.280
Do you think that the French are
more permissive when it comes to affairs.

505
00:35:53.599 --> 00:36:00.159
I don't know. I guess that's
what kind of a popular stereotype would Lee'd

506
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:02.039
one to believe. But I have
no I have no evidence one way or

507
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:07.400
another. Okay, we paused and
I looked up the information. This is

508
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:12.039
an old graph that I found.
It's from twenty thirteen, so over ten

509
00:36:12.119 --> 00:36:16.280
years ago, and it has the
percentage of people that say that married people

510
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:22.079
having an affair is morally unacceptable.
And it has probably like thirty different countries

511
00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:28.280
here, and at the very top
of it is France at forty seven percent.

512
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:32.320
They say it's it's not it's morally
acceptable, they have an affair.

513
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:36.559
Wow, I'm just going to read
a few other countries just so you know.

514
00:36:36.599 --> 00:36:43.119
So France forty seven percent of the
population say it's unacceptable, Japan is

515
00:36:43.159 --> 00:36:46.519
it sixty nine percent, Russia is
at sixty nine percent, Mexico is at

516
00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:52.599
seventy three percent, China is at
seventy four percent, Canada seventy six percent,

517
00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:59.440
Australia seventy nine percent, South Korea
eighty one percent. Just to give

518
00:36:59.480 --> 00:37:02.760
you an idea where it's going the
US is at eighty four percent of people

519
00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:10.760
say it's morally unacceptable. So we're
so uptight, aren't we. I think

520
00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:15.159
we believe in mirrital fideli it would
be another way to say that. And

521
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:17.440
at the bottom of the chart we
have like Pakistan, Egypt, Jordan,

522
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:24.719
Indonesia, Turkey and Palestine at veering
between ninety two and ninety four percent.

523
00:37:25.480 --> 00:37:30.280
So kind of interesting. Yeah.
At one point, Jean Claude sent Corene

524
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:34.440
a bouquet of flowers and said that
he was going to be in Paris for

525
00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:37.039
a conference and asked if he could
take her out to dinner. She was

526
00:37:37.079 --> 00:37:40.760
surprised, but she said yes.
He took her to a fancy restaurant and

527
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:45.199
he shared more than he had ever
shared before about his research career. This

528
00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:50.320
also surprised here because he had never
really talked about it much before, and

529
00:37:50.360 --> 00:37:53.320
she started to think that maybe there
was more to Jean claud than she had

530
00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:58.360
realized. He came back to Paris
a couple of weeks later took her out

531
00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:00.480
to dinner again, and this time
he confessed that he was in love with

532
00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:05.719
her. She was shocked but also
flattered, but she turned him away.

533
00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:08.719
The next day, he called and
apologized, but he also dropped off a

534
00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:14.760
package containing some expensive jewelry for her. After that, he started coming to

535
00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:17.920
Paris one night a week, telling
both Kreine and Florence that he was working

536
00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:22.840
on some important project at an institute
in Paris. He became almost obsessed with

537
00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:28.079
Corene and could think of nothing else. In the spring of nineteen ninety,

538
00:38:28.119 --> 00:38:30.800
they had sex for the first time. Florence and John Claude. They have

539
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:35.679
this group of friends and they're all
like professionals, right, they're doctors,

540
00:38:35.719 --> 00:38:39.920
and it's I guess he had the
training, so he could probably speak intelligently.

541
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:43.079
Oh yeah, his group of friends. Yeah, I think he was

542
00:38:43.159 --> 00:38:45.599
very knowledgeable about when they were probably
asking him, well, what are you

543
00:38:45.679 --> 00:38:49.920
researching? And yeah. I think
he just didn't want to talk about it.

544
00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:52.760
I think he tried he intentionally top
secret. I think he would just

545
00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:55.320
be like, act like he was
modest. I don't want to talk about

546
00:38:55.320 --> 00:39:00.400
that, you know, that's just
my work or whatever. While he had

547
00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:05.320
been fairly cautious about spending too much
money, with his newfound obsession, he

548
00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:09.039
became much more extravagant. He was
spending money on expensive hotels and restaurant in

549
00:39:09.079 --> 00:39:14.920
Paris. Along with gifts for Karine, he bought himself a range rover,

550
00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:20.719
lost some weight and started dressing inexpensive
clothing. I will be very suspicious,

551
00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:23.159
so you know, if you start
dressing better, yeah, it's not gonna

552
00:39:23.159 --> 00:39:28.760
happen. In August of nineteen ninety, Jean Claud and Karine went to Rome

553
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:31.880
together. The trip did not turn
out well. On their final day together,

554
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:36.880
Karine told Jean Claud that she didn't
love him. She said she found

555
00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:40.360
him to be too sad. He
cried and begged her. She tried to

556
00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:45.480
let him down gently and promised she
still wanted to be friends with him.

557
00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:50.320
They came back from Rome, then
Jean Claud joined Florence and the kids for

558
00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:54.400
a holiday near where his parents lived. Jean Claud was distraught over Karine and

559
00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:59.719
one day went out into the mountains, apparently with the intent to kill himself

560
00:39:59.800 --> 00:40:04.039
by jumping into a ravine, but
he got caught up in the overgrown branches

561
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:07.760
by the ravine, so he only
ended up getting cut up by the brush.

562
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:10.480
Instead of going back to see Florence, he drove an hour in forty

563
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:15.440
five minutes to leone then called Florence
to tell her that he had been in

564
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:21.039
a car accident and had to be
airlifted by helicopter to a hospital in Switzerland.

565
00:40:21.880 --> 00:40:24.239
Florence wanted to rush to the hospital, but he said, don't worry.

566
00:40:24.280 --> 00:40:28.280
It's not that bad. I'll be
fine. He said he had been

567
00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:32.800
driving a World Health Organization company car, which would explain why his own car

568
00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:37.280
was not damaged. He returned home
the next day with his face all scratched

569
00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:42.960
up from the branches. Florence tried
to comfort him because he was clearly upset.

570
00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:45.559
He told her that he'd gotten into
the accident because he'd just gotten some

571
00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:52.679
terrible news. His supervisor at the
WHO, who had been battling cancer for

572
00:40:52.760 --> 00:40:58.440
several years, had just died.
He cried all night low. He's ridiculous.

573
00:40:58.559 --> 00:41:00.599
He is totally ridiculous. He cried
all night long, and it surprised

574
00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:06.360
Florence how much he must have cared
for his coworker that he'd never each even

575
00:41:06.440 --> 00:41:10.800
mentioned before Good Boy. Around this
time, Jean Claud called his friend Mark

576
00:41:10.840 --> 00:41:15.000
and told him he thought he was
having a heart attack, but he didn't

577
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:19.159
want to go to the hospital.
He went over to Mark's house or Mark

578
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:22.400
gave him a quick examination and said
he believed that Jean Claud was having a

579
00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:25.719
panic attack. So Mark was like, sure, you're having a heart attack,

580
00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:29.639
drive on over. I don't know
if he gave him a choice.

581
00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:32.000
He asked Jean Claude, Well,
I'm just saying he should have been driving

582
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:36.119
if he thought he was having a
heart attack. Yeah. True, He

583
00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:38.400
asked Jean Claude, what was going
on? So Jean Claude told Mark about

584
00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:43.599
the affair with Karine. Mark,
who was also good friends with Florence,

585
00:41:43.719 --> 00:41:46.920
blew up at Jean Claud and made
him promise to break things off with Karine

586
00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:52.079
and to tell Florence everything. He
said that if Jean Claud wouldn't do it,

587
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:57.599
then he would tell Florence himself.
Jean Claud promised he would do the

588
00:41:57.679 --> 00:42:01.880
right thing. Yeah, right,
as Jean Claud usually does. But of

589
00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:06.960
course, before that happened, Jean
Claud announced to everyone that his cancer had

590
00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:10.840
returned, this time in the form
of Hodgkins's disease. He told Florence that

591
00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:15.639
his cancer treatments were exhausting, so
he no longer went to work every day.

592
00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:19.280
Instead, he would often spend the
day in bed, reading and dozing

593
00:42:19.320 --> 00:42:22.760
off. It was a lot like
college. When he got depressed over Florence

594
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:25.760
dumping him, He sunk into a
depression and he didn't have the drive or

595
00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:30.360
the motivation to do much of anything. He hadn't talked to Kreine for months

596
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:35.079
since their trip to Rome, but
he finally worked up the nerve to call

597
00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:37.559
her, and she seemed happy to
hear from him. She was actually going

598
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:42.119
through a hard time with a relationship
and with her work, and he was

599
00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:45.559
a good listener. Soon he was
traveling back to Paris regularly, taking her

600
00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:51.880
out to expensive dinners and buying her
expensive gifts again. Jean Claude and Karine

601
00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:54.760
took a trip to Leningrad, Russia
together, but much like their earlier trip

602
00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:59.440
to Rome, it ended badly.
Kareine told him it had been a mistake

603
00:42:59.480 --> 00:43:02.880
and they should just be friends again, causing Jean Claud to weep and plead

604
00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:07.360
with her. On the flight home, he told her it didn't matter because

605
00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:12.159
he had cancer and would probably be
dead soon anyway. They parted ways,

606
00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:16.119
promising to remain friends once again,
and they did talk regularly after that,

607
00:43:16.480 --> 00:43:21.880
and one day Kareine told Jean Claud
she needed his advice. She and her

608
00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:25.280
ex had sold their office in Geneva
and she had received nine hundred thousand francs

609
00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:29.119
from the sale. Oh no,
yeah, you can see where this is

610
00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:34.079
going. How much it's a little
bit hard to say because Franks don't really

611
00:43:34.119 --> 00:43:37.440
exist anymore. France is now in
the Europe I think I think it's probably

612
00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:43.239
around one hundred thousand dollars. So
she wanted to invest that money, and

613
00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:46.000
she wondered if Jean Claude had any
ideas, and of course he did.

614
00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:50.639
He flew to Paris right away and
went to the bank with her so that

615
00:43:50.679 --> 00:43:52.400
she could get the cash, which
he then took with him back home.

616
00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:58.039
This was a different situation than the
relatives who had given him money for long

617
00:43:58.119 --> 00:44:01.840
term Investingin' said she would want the
money back relatively soon, because she was

618
00:44:01.880 --> 00:44:06.719
probably going to buy a new office. John Claude said, no problems,

619
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:08.639
She could get it back whenever she
needed it. So this is someone that

620
00:44:08.679 --> 00:44:14.480
he is in love with and he's
still willing to take her money and manipulate

621
00:44:14.519 --> 00:44:16.360
her. Yeah. I think he
was starting to get desperate by this time,

622
00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:20.039
because I think the money he was
starting to run out, and so

623
00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:22.880
he was looking for a new source
of income wherever he could get it.

624
00:44:24.039 --> 00:44:30.719
So you said that he never gave
anyone a statement or anything. It's just

625
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:35.199
crazy that. Yeah. People just
I mean, if you I'll show you

626
00:44:35.239 --> 00:44:37.320
pictures of this guy. Not that
the not that you know, someone's appearance

627
00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:43.480
means anything, but he just looks
like a boring, regular guy. He

628
00:44:43.519 --> 00:44:45.119
looks like an accountant or something.
He just looks like a you know,

629
00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:50.119
average guy that you could trust with
anything. And I think that's what people

630
00:44:50.719 --> 00:44:53.679
just looked at him that way.
I would just think if someone had,

631
00:44:53.920 --> 00:44:59.159
you know, our entire retirement account, I would ask him from time to

632
00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:02.880
time, how much money do we
have? Yeah, how is our investment

633
00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:07.679
going? I'm sure people did.
He probably said just great, everything's gone

634
00:45:07.719 --> 00:45:12.960
great, no problem. During the
summer of nineteen ninety two, there was

635
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:16.039
a bit of a scandal at the
Catholic school where Jean Claude's and Florence's kids,

636
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:21.559
along with Mark Vital Durand's kids went. The school principal, who was

637
00:45:21.639 --> 00:45:24.079
married and had four children, had
an affair with one of the teachers who

638
00:45:24.239 --> 00:45:30.159
was also married, and news of
the affair somehow got out. Florence was

639
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:35.159
the vice president of the parents' association
at the school, which organized various activities.

640
00:45:35.800 --> 00:45:39.679
Mark and Jean Claude were on the
school's administrative board. Florence was of

641
00:45:39.719 --> 00:45:44.639
the opinion that the affair was a
personal matter and shouldn't be caused for removing

642
00:45:44.679 --> 00:45:50.679
the principle, and that view prevailed
throughout the parents' association, but the administrative

643
00:45:50.679 --> 00:45:57.199
board met and voted unanimously Jean claud
included to replace the principle, even though

644
00:45:57.280 --> 00:46:00.360
he quietly went along with the vote. Jean Claude, knowing how Florence felt

645
00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:06.199
about the situation, told her that
he had strongly objected to ousting the principle

646
00:46:06.559 --> 00:46:09.440
and that he had voted against it. Florence was proud of him for taking

647
00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:15.760
a stand. This disagreement between the
parents Association and the administrative board of the

648
00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:19.320
school caused a bit of a feud, and it created a little bit of

649
00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:24.440
a rift between Mark and the Romans. Months later, just before Christmas,

650
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:29.679
Mark saw Florence at church and decided
he wanted to try to bury the hatchet.

651
00:46:30.199 --> 00:46:34.320
He went and talked to her,
and Florence was conciliatory, but when

652
00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:38.239
Mark mentioned something about the vote being
unanimous, including Jean Claude. Florence was

653
00:46:38.280 --> 00:46:43.440
surprised, and she kept saying quote, so he lied to me. He

654
00:46:43.519 --> 00:46:47.760
lied to me, hmm. And
then shortly after that, Florence was talking

655
00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:52.000
to another mom from school whose husband
happened to work at the World Health Organization.

656
00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:59.360
This other woman mentioned something about the
annual WHO Christmas party for employees and

657
00:46:59.400 --> 00:47:02.559
their families and was wondering if Florence
was going to bring Caroline and Antoine.

658
00:47:04.119 --> 00:47:07.800
The look on Florence's face spoke volumes. She had obviously never heard of this

659
00:47:07.880 --> 00:47:12.199
party in all the years that Jean
Claude had supposedly worked at the WHO.

660
00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:16.920
Another thing happened right around Christmas time
of nineteen ninety two that must have caused

661
00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:22.360
Florence to question the truth about her
husband. The president of the school board

662
00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:25.440
wanted to talk to Jean Claude about
the situation with the principal. He didn't

663
00:47:25.480 --> 00:47:30.960
think anything of calling the World Health
Organization, where he knew Jean Claud worked

664
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:35.119
to try and reach him, but
he was really confused when no one was

665
00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:40.519
able to find Jean Claud in the
directory. Shortly after christmasification ended, he

666
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:45.199
ran into Florence and mentioned to her
that he had tried and failed to reach

667
00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:50.480
Jean Claud at his work. Florence
said, that's strange. She would have

668
00:47:50.519 --> 00:47:54.119
to ask Jean Claud about it.
Unfortunately, Florence would be dead in less

669
00:47:54.119 --> 00:47:58.920
than a week, so it's not
clear whether she ever asked him about it.

670
00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:02.079
John Claude must have known, with
all these different things happening, that

671
00:48:02.199 --> 00:48:06.880
the walls were closing in on him. He had spent all of the money

672
00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:10.159
given to him by his parents,
his uncle, Florence's mom. He was

673
00:48:10.280 --> 00:48:15.320
quickly going through the money that Karine
had given him as well. Florence seemed

674
00:48:15.360 --> 00:48:21.599
suspicious, and his bank accounts would
soon be overdrawn. I just get anxiety

675
00:48:21.639 --> 00:48:25.400
reading these stories, I know.
In early January, his mom phoned him

676
00:48:25.519 --> 00:48:30.679
upset because she received a bank statement
showing an overdraft. Jean Claude said it

677
00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:36.039
was a mix up and he just
needed to transfer money from another account to

678
00:48:36.039 --> 00:48:38.280
top it off. Kareine, whose
friends had told her that she was crazy

679
00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:43.800
for giving her money to some guy
without any paperwork, decided she wanted her

680
00:48:43.840 --> 00:48:47.639
money back. Jean Claude avoided her
calls for as long as he could,

681
00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:51.599
then he tried to talk her out
of it. Saying there would be a

682
00:48:51.639 --> 00:48:54.960
penalty for early withdrawal, but her
mind was made up. He tried to

683
00:48:55.000 --> 00:49:00.039
put her off by saying that he
was bedridden due to the cancer and he

684
00:49:00.039 --> 00:49:02.960
wouldn't be able to travel to Paris, but finally he agreed to come to

685
00:49:04.039 --> 00:49:07.119
Paris and give her her money back. He told Karin he was good friends

686
00:49:07.119 --> 00:49:12.480
with Bernard Kouchner, who was well
known in France as the founder of Doctors

687
00:49:12.519 --> 00:49:17.320
without Boarders and also the former French
Minister of Foreign and European Affairs. Jean

688
00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:22.280
claud said he was supposed to go
to a dinner party at the Kouchner's home

689
00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:25.599
in January. Maybe Karine would like
to go with him and he could give

690
00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:30.039
her back her money. Then Karine
said absolutely, she was excited about meeting

691
00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:35.760
him. The date set for the
dinner party was January ninth, nineteen ninety

692
00:49:35.760 --> 00:49:39.320
three. With the walls closing in
on him, Jean Claude's thoughts turned to

693
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:44.719
suicide. On Tuesday, January fifth, he went to the pharmacy where Florence

694
00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:47.360
worked part time and talked to the
owner, who was a friend of theirs.

695
00:49:47.960 --> 00:49:52.480
He told the pharmacist that he needed
a particular barbituate combined with an anti

696
00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:58.440
emitic drug for some research that he
was doing on cell cultures. Obviously,

697
00:49:58.639 --> 00:50:02.719
this was not an ordinary that a
researcher would procure drugs for research, but

698
00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:07.960
the pharmacist knew and trusted Jean Claude, so he said no problem, he

699
00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:12.239
would have the order ready by Friday. On Wednesday, Jean Claud went to

700
00:50:12.320 --> 00:50:15.480
a gun shop and bought a stun
wand also known as a stun baton,

701
00:50:16.239 --> 00:50:21.320
two pepper spray canisters and a box
of cartridges, and a silencer for a

702
00:50:21.400 --> 00:50:25.920
twenty two caliber rifle. Thursday was
the day that Jean Claud supposedly taught his

703
00:50:27.039 --> 00:50:31.000
class in Leone and always stopped to
visit his parents. He did that as

704
00:50:31.079 --> 00:50:35.960
usual, and while he was there
he got a twenty two caliber rifle from

705
00:50:35.960 --> 00:50:39.119
his parents' gun safe and took it
back home with him. Before heading home,

706
00:50:39.199 --> 00:50:45.239
he called Karine to remind her of
the dinner party at Bernard Kouchner's house

707
00:50:45.519 --> 00:50:50.039
on Saturday evening. On Friday,
Jean Claude drove the kids to school,

708
00:50:50.280 --> 00:50:53.000
bought a newspaper and some croissants,
and then went to the pharmacy to pick

709
00:50:53.079 --> 00:50:58.800
up his barbiturates along with some chewing
gum. He swung by the supermarket where

710
00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:02.440
he bought two Jerry Camps, which
are big five point three gallon gas cans,

711
00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:06.519
and then he stopped at the gas
station on his way home to fill

712
00:51:06.559 --> 00:51:09.599
them up. After school was done, Jean Claude, Florence, and the

713
00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:14.079
kids went to a shopping center over
the border in Switzerland, where they bought

714
00:51:14.079 --> 00:51:16.800
a Lego set as a gift for
one of the children's friends who was having

715
00:51:16.840 --> 00:51:21.760
a birthday party the next day.
They had dinner in the cafeteria at the

716
00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:25.440
shopping center, then came home.
Antoine and Caroline made some art to go

717
00:51:25.519 --> 00:51:28.800
with the gift that they had bought, and then they went to bed.

718
00:51:29.840 --> 00:51:32.079
Florence talked to her mother on the
phone for a long time that evening.

719
00:51:32.440 --> 00:51:37.519
Her mother was sad, which made
Florence sad as well. She was crying

720
00:51:37.559 --> 00:51:40.920
when she hung up, so Jean
Claude comforted her. We don't know exactly

721
00:51:40.960 --> 00:51:45.960
what happened after that. It's believed
that Jean Claude and Florence had a fight

722
00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:50.199
about what. We don't know.
It's possible that she called him out on

723
00:51:50.239 --> 00:51:53.480
the lies that she had learned about
recently. We know that her autopsy a

724
00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:57.920
couple of days later showed a blood
alcohol level of point two, which is

725
00:51:58.000 --> 00:52:02.000
quite high, and we also know
that Lawrence rarely drank at most a glass

726
00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:07.079
of wine or two, so it's
possible that she drank a lot that night

727
00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:12.360
as they were arguing. It's believed
that Florence fell asleep while Jean Claude sat

728
00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:15.480
up most of the night racking his
brain about how to get out of the

729
00:52:15.519 --> 00:52:19.000
mess that he had made. The
money was nearly gone, he had no

730
00:52:19.079 --> 00:52:22.920
other sources to get more, and
people were getting very close to learning the

731
00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:27.000
truth. Nearing dawn, with no
way out that he could see, he

732
00:52:27.079 --> 00:52:30.599
took a rolling pin and bashed Florence's
skull in from behind while she was sleeping.

733
00:52:31.559 --> 00:52:36.400
He then washed the rolling pin and
put it away. Soon after he

734
00:52:36.519 --> 00:52:38.800
killed Florence, the phone rang.
It was a friend calling to see if

735
00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:43.880
Florence could help out at church that
evening. Jean Claude said probably not,

736
00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:46.559
because they were planning to go see
his parents. He offered to go and

737
00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:51.800
get Florence, but the friend said
there was no need. The phone ringing

738
00:52:51.880 --> 00:52:54.840
woke the children up. He told
them their mom was sleeping and put in

739
00:52:54.880 --> 00:52:59.960
a tape of the Three Little Pigs
cartoon, got them bowls of Coco pop,

740
00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:02.880
and sat with them on the couch
while they watched their show. After

741
00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:07.519
about an hour, Caroline said she
was cold and was going upstairs to get

742
00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:10.199
a bathrobe. Jean Claude said he
thought maybe she had a fever, so

743
00:53:10.280 --> 00:53:14.880
he went upstairs with her to check. He told her to lie down in

744
00:53:14.920 --> 00:53:17.159
the bed and put the pillow over
her head. It was a game,

745
00:53:17.280 --> 00:53:22.039
he said. Then he went and
got his rifle with a silencer on it

746
00:53:22.119 --> 00:53:25.159
and shot her through the pillow,
killing her. Then he called Antoine up

747
00:53:25.199 --> 00:53:29.880
and repeated the same thing with him. Oh my god, that's horrible.

748
00:53:30.079 --> 00:53:32.000
I know, I don't know how. I just can't imagine how someone could

749
00:53:32.039 --> 00:53:37.559
do that. It was now Saturday
morning. After killing his wife and two

750
00:53:37.639 --> 00:53:40.119
children, Jean Claud put the rifle
in his car and drove to pick up

751
00:53:40.159 --> 00:53:45.239
some newspapers. The newspaper vendor later
said that Jean Claud seemed completely normal.

752
00:53:46.119 --> 00:53:50.360
Jean Claud then made the hour and
a half drive to his parents' house.

753
00:53:50.960 --> 00:53:53.519
They had lunch together at their house, and then Jean Claude asked his dad

754
00:53:53.559 --> 00:53:58.559
to come upstairs with him. His
dad had complained about an air vent that

755
00:53:58.719 --> 00:54:01.480
was smelling funny, and so Jean
Claude asked his dad to show him where

756
00:54:01.519 --> 00:54:06.360
it was. After going upstairs,
his dad knelt down to show him the

757
00:54:06.440 --> 00:54:09.360
vent, and Jean Claude shot him
twice in the back, killing him.

758
00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:14.280
Because he used the silencer, his
mother had probably not heard the shots.

759
00:54:15.079 --> 00:54:17.400
He went downstairs and asked his mother
to come to the sitting room with him,

760
00:54:17.599 --> 00:54:21.719
which is where he shot her.
She was the only one of his

761
00:54:21.800 --> 00:54:24.360
victims shot from the front, so
it's likely that she was walking into the

762
00:54:24.360 --> 00:54:29.679
sitting room and then unexpectedly turned around
as he was pointing the gun at her.

763
00:54:30.639 --> 00:54:34.199
The dog was acting frantic after that, running back and forth between the

764
00:54:34.199 --> 00:54:37.519
two bodies, and so Jean Claud
shot the dog too. Then he cleaned

765
00:54:37.519 --> 00:54:40.599
the rifle and put it back in
the gun rack at his parents' house before

766
00:54:40.719 --> 00:54:45.960
driving off around two pm. From
there, Jean Claud drove to Paris,

767
00:54:46.119 --> 00:54:50.639
normally a five hour drive, but
he hit some traffic so it took longer

768
00:54:50.679 --> 00:54:54.280
than usual. He picked up Karine
to go to Bernard Kouchner's dinner party.

769
00:54:55.119 --> 00:55:00.639
In the car, Karine asked for
her money. Jean Claud apologized profuse saying

770
00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:02.800
he ran out of time to get
to the bank in Geneva, but he

771
00:55:02.880 --> 00:55:07.800
promised her he would get her money
first thing Monday morning and then fly to

772
00:55:07.880 --> 00:55:10.199
Paris to give it to her.
Kureene was annoyed, but she let it

773
00:55:10.239 --> 00:55:15.719
go because she was excited about the
dinner. So he's just killed the five

774
00:55:15.800 --> 00:55:17.360
people in the world that you would
think he loved the most, and a

775
00:55:17.599 --> 00:55:22.079
poor dog, and he just goes
about his day. I know, it's

776
00:55:22.119 --> 00:55:25.159
hard to fathom, isn't it.
It's just sick. He had a map

777
00:55:25.199 --> 00:55:29.800
with a spot marked on it where
he said Kouchner lived, but he drove

778
00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:32.440
there and then said it must have
been wrong. He kept driving around until

779
00:55:32.480 --> 00:55:37.199
he was lost. He said he
had Kouchner's phone number written down somewhere,

780
00:55:37.199 --> 00:55:39.480
but he couldn't seem to find it. While they were driving around, he

781
00:55:39.599 --> 00:55:44.400
told Karen that he and Florence were
going to separate and that he had a

782
00:55:44.440 --> 00:55:47.159
new apartment, which he described to
her in great detail. They had been

783
00:55:47.239 --> 00:55:51.440
driving around for a couple of hours, by which time Karine was getting more

784
00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:54.960
and more annoyed. Around ten thirty
pm, Jean Claude stopped at a rest

785
00:55:55.000 --> 00:55:58.679
area and said he was going to
look in the trunk for the piece of

786
00:55:58.679 --> 00:56:01.760
paper where he had written Couch his
phone number. He rummaged around in the

787
00:56:01.800 --> 00:56:05.880
trunk for a bit and told her
he couldn't find it, but he had

788
00:56:05.920 --> 00:56:08.280
found a necklace that he had wanted
to give to her. He asked her

789
00:56:08.280 --> 00:56:12.079
to get out of the car so
he could put it on her. She

790
00:56:12.159 --> 00:56:15.559
was super irritated by this point,
but he insisted, and so she finally

791
00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:19.119
said fine, and she got out
of the car. He told her to

792
00:56:19.119 --> 00:56:22.639
close her eyes while he put the
necklace on her. She did, but

793
00:56:22.760 --> 00:56:25.280
instead of surprising her with a necklace, he surprised her by spraying the pepper

794
00:56:25.320 --> 00:56:30.159
spray in her face and then zapping
her in the stomach with the stun gun.

795
00:56:30.159 --> 00:56:34.199
She tried to open her eyes,
but it stung. She believed he

796
00:56:34.280 --> 00:56:37.000
was going to kill her, and
so she screamed, don't kill me,

797
00:56:37.079 --> 00:56:39.440
think of my daughters. She opened
her eyes and looked him in the eye,

798
00:56:39.480 --> 00:56:44.280
which seemed to stop his attack.
She sat back down in the car,

799
00:56:44.360 --> 00:56:46.599
as did he, and they washed
the pepper spray out of their eyes

800
00:56:46.639 --> 00:56:52.559
with some bottled water. He then
drove back toward her apartment. As they

801
00:56:52.559 --> 00:56:55.480
were driving, she was thinking what
in the hell just happened. He tried

802
00:56:55.480 --> 00:57:00.239
to gaslight her into believing that she
had started this fight, but she wasn't

803
00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:04.320
buying it. They came to a
village and Jean Claude said he was going

804
00:57:04.360 --> 00:57:07.920
to call Bernard Kouchner to apologize for
not making it to the party. After

805
00:57:07.960 --> 00:57:12.280
he supposedly made the call from a
payphone, he came back to the car

806
00:57:12.320 --> 00:57:15.599
and drove her home. They had
driven so far that it took a couple

807
00:57:15.679 --> 00:57:19.400
of hours to get back. The
whole time, Corene was worried that he

808
00:57:19.400 --> 00:57:23.320
would attack her again. She used
her training as a psychologist to gently question

809
00:57:23.440 --> 00:57:28.280
him and try to understand what happened. He blamed it on his battle with

810
00:57:28.360 --> 00:57:31.599
cancer, saying it was driving him
crazy and that he was having blackout periods

811
00:57:31.639 --> 00:57:37.239
where he didn't remember anything. She
told him he should go see a psychiatrist

812
00:57:37.239 --> 00:57:40.519
and that she would be happy to
recommend someone. He finally dropped her off

813
00:57:40.519 --> 00:57:45.440
at her apartment around one am and
made her promise not to tell anyone about

814
00:57:45.440 --> 00:57:49.280
what had happened. Five minutes later, after he dropped her off, he

815
00:57:49.400 --> 00:57:53.239
called her from a payphone, saying
that what had happened wasn't planned or premeditated.

816
00:57:53.480 --> 00:57:57.280
He said, quote, if I'd
wanted to kill you, I'd have

817
00:57:57.280 --> 00:58:00.760
done it in your apartment, and
i'd have killed your girls too. Oh

818
00:58:00.760 --> 00:58:05.800
my gosh, can you imagine?
Like she didn't obviously know anything about what

819
00:58:05.880 --> 00:58:09.400
he had done earlier, killing his
family and everything, But after she found

820
00:58:09.440 --> 00:58:13.559
out about that, can you imagine
how freaked out that must have made her?

821
00:58:13.679 --> 00:58:15.480
Like, I can't believe she could
have been his Yeah, Yeah,

822
00:58:15.519 --> 00:58:21.239
I can't believe she survived. Yeah. He arrived back home around sunrise Sunday

823
00:58:21.280 --> 00:58:23.599
morning, after stopping at a rest
area along the way for a nap.

824
00:58:24.119 --> 00:58:30.039
With the bodies of Florence, Caroline, and Antoine upstairs. John Claude checked

825
00:58:30.079 --> 00:58:32.920
the answering machine for messages and then
took a nap on the couch. How

826
00:58:32.920 --> 00:58:37.199
do you do that? At around
eleven am, he started worrying that one

827
00:58:37.239 --> 00:58:40.400
of their friends might see his car
in the driveway and stop him to say

828
00:58:40.400 --> 00:58:45.280
hello, So he drove his car
to a nearby shopping center, parked it,

829
00:58:45.400 --> 00:58:49.400
and walked back home. Then he
popped a tape in the VCR and

830
00:58:49.440 --> 00:58:53.000
spent the next three hours, recording
bits and pieces of different programs, and

831
00:58:53.239 --> 00:58:58.800
he turned the channels on the TV
every few seconds. We don't know why

832
00:58:58.840 --> 00:59:01.800
he did this, but that's what
he did between one and four pm,

833
00:59:02.480 --> 00:59:07.079
doing like a foam alone type thing
where you know, like how so the

834
00:59:07.199 --> 00:59:12.119
sounds could be playing from the TV
like someone was home. Channel has no

835
00:59:12.199 --> 00:59:15.119
idea. I can only imagine that
he was just like, I don't know.

836
00:59:15.159 --> 00:59:17.480
He must have been in a bizarre
state of mind at this point.

837
00:59:19.440 --> 00:59:22.960
Between four and seven pm, he
called Karine nine times, leaving her short

838
00:59:23.039 --> 00:59:28.000
messages on the machine. He called
a tenth time and she picked up.

839
00:59:28.239 --> 00:59:30.920
She told him she was still in
pain from Jean Claude's attack the night before.

840
00:59:31.519 --> 00:59:36.880
He apologized and told her how depressed
he was. She said she wouldn't

841
00:59:36.920 --> 00:59:38.760
go to the police and made him
promise to bring her the money. On

842
00:59:38.920 --> 00:59:44.960
Monday, sometime after midnight, Jean
Claude poured out the gas from the jerry

843
00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:47.480
cans. He poured some of it
in the attic, then some on the

844
00:59:47.559 --> 00:59:52.239
children's bodies, some on Florence's body, and some on the stairs. He

845
00:59:52.280 --> 00:59:57.199
put on his pajamas and then ignited
the areas where he had poured the gasoline.

846
00:59:57.880 --> 01:00:00.599
For some reason, he didn't take
the barbituates that he had gotten a

847
01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:05.119
couple of days early at the pharmacy. Instead, he took about twenty nemputal

848
01:00:05.400 --> 01:00:09.000
capsules, which is a sedative,
that were about ten years past their expiration

849
01:00:09.159 --> 01:00:13.840
date. He went to lie down
next to Florence, but his eyes started

850
01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:17.199
stinging and he was having trouble breathing, so he dragged himself to the window

851
01:00:17.320 --> 01:00:22.360
and opened it just as the firemen
were arriving. Then he passed out as

852
01:00:22.400 --> 01:00:28.760
they were raising their ladder up to
rescue him. While Jean Claud's friend Mark

853
01:00:28.840 --> 01:00:34.400
fettel Durand had originally prayed for Jean
Claud to die because Mark knew that he

854
01:00:34.400 --> 01:00:37.079
wouldn't want to live without his family. Now that he knew the truth,

855
01:00:37.599 --> 01:00:42.840
he prayed for Jean Claud to die
because of what he did, but it

856
01:00:42.920 --> 01:00:45.719
was not to be. Three days
after the fire, it became apparent that

857
01:00:45.800 --> 01:00:51.400
Jean Claude was going to survive.
After he was conscious again, the police

858
01:00:51.400 --> 01:00:57.079
interrogated him. He initially denied everything, saying a mysterious man dressed in black

859
01:00:57.119 --> 01:01:00.519
had broken into the house, shot
the children, and set the house on

860
01:01:00.559 --> 01:01:04.519
fire, it was ridiculous, and
knowing that there was no hiding from the

861
01:01:04.559 --> 01:01:10.639
truth, Jean Claude eventually confessed.
Psychiatrists evaluated him. They noted that he

862
01:01:10.719 --> 01:01:15.440
was emotionless when speaking about Florence and
the children, although later he would act

863
01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:20.960
overwrought with emotion when speaking about them. They were convinced that it was just

864
01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:23.559
an act. In the end,
Jean Claude had decided that it was better

865
01:01:23.599 --> 01:01:28.960
for his family to all die rather
than to learn the truth that his entire

866
01:01:28.960 --> 01:01:32.440
adult life had been a lie.
In his twisted logic, he was protecting

867
01:01:32.480 --> 01:01:37.079
them. I think that's really what
he believed, like or what he told

868
01:01:37.159 --> 01:01:44.079
himself anyway. I think that's happened
so often in these cases with family annihilators.

869
01:01:44.519 --> 01:01:50.320
It's like it's all about their ego. Yeah, world revolves around them.

870
01:01:50.719 --> 01:01:52.679
At his trial, there was no
question about what he did. The

871
01:01:52.719 --> 01:01:57.639
only real issue that came into focus
was whether he actually was trying to commit

872
01:01:57.679 --> 01:02:00.760
suicide or not. He started the
fun in the attic where the flames were

873
01:02:00.840 --> 01:02:05.360
likely to be seen. Quickly,
he took pills that were ten years beyond

874
01:02:05.360 --> 01:02:08.239
their expiration date, and he did
it right as the firemen were arriving,

875
01:02:09.039 --> 01:02:13.559
and he opened the bedroom window as
they arrived, so it seemed like his

876
01:02:13.599 --> 01:02:17.079
suicide attempt was maybe just a way
to try to earn some sympathy. The

877
01:02:17.119 --> 01:02:22.280
other question that was raised during the
trial was whether Jean Claud had also killed

878
01:02:22.280 --> 01:02:25.719
his father in law, Pierre Crolet. Remember, Pierre had asked Jean Claude

879
01:02:25.719 --> 01:02:30.079
to give some of his money back, and shortly after that fell down the

880
01:02:30.079 --> 01:02:34.920
stairs and died while Jean Claude was
there. An investigation into his death was

881
01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:38.280
reopened, but no evidence could be
found to reverse the earlier decision that it

882
01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:43.320
was an accident. For his part, Jean Claud swore that he didn't kill

883
01:02:43.360 --> 01:02:46.559
Florence's dad, saying, quote,
I want to tell Florence's mother and brothers

884
01:02:46.599 --> 01:02:51.159
that her father died as a result
of his fall. I don't ask them

885
01:02:51.159 --> 01:02:53.800
to believe me because I have no
proof, but I say it before Florence

886
01:02:53.840 --> 01:02:58.920
and before God, because I know
that an unconfessed crime will not be forgiven

887
01:02:59.079 --> 01:03:04.320
unquote. Before the court retired to
deliberate, Jean Claude was allowed to make

888
01:03:04.360 --> 01:03:07.679
a statement. In his statement,
he asked for forgiveness from those that he

889
01:03:07.760 --> 01:03:13.039
caused suffering and he spoke to the
family members he killed, saying they were

890
01:03:13.079 --> 01:03:17.079
in his heart. After five hours
of deliberation, Jean Claud was sentenced to

891
01:03:17.199 --> 01:03:22.800
life imprisonment with the possibility of parole
after twenty two years. That would mean

892
01:03:22.840 --> 01:03:27.239
that the earliest he could be released
would be in twenty fifteen, when he

893
01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:31.079
was sixty one years old. In
prison, Jean Claud feared that he would

894
01:03:31.119 --> 01:03:36.400
be assaulted because he was a child
murderer, but amazingly, a gang leader

895
01:03:36.440 --> 01:03:40.679
in prison recognized Jean Claude and took
him under his protection. Years earlier in

896
01:03:40.760 --> 01:03:45.320
the outside world, this gang leader
had been hitchhiking, and Jean Claud had

897
01:03:45.320 --> 01:03:47.760
picked him up and given him two
hundred francs to buy a good meal.

898
01:03:49.760 --> 01:03:52.800
It turned out that Jean Claude was
basically a celebrity in prison. I know

899
01:03:53.679 --> 01:03:58.320
the rest of this story is going
to make you really mad. Difficult prisoners

900
01:03:58.360 --> 01:04:00.960
would be paired up with Jean Claud
as their cellmate because he had a calming

901
01:04:01.000 --> 01:04:08.320
influence on them. Shockingly, Roman
did get paroled from prison in twenty nineteen,

902
01:04:08.519 --> 01:04:13.079
after twenty six years behind bars,
at age sixty five. He had

903
01:04:13.079 --> 01:04:15.800
to show the parole board that he
had a place to live when he was

904
01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:19.360
released, and a monastery in the
western part of France, about six hours

905
01:04:19.360 --> 01:04:24.400
from where he committed his crimes,
had agreed to take him in. At

906
01:04:24.440 --> 01:04:28.719
the time of his release, Florence's
brother said, quote, the word free

907
01:04:28.880 --> 01:04:33.519
is hard to hear for me.
He's won unquote. Jean Claude was required

908
01:04:33.760 --> 01:04:39.639
to remain under electronic surveillance for two
years after his release, and he is

909
01:04:39.679 --> 01:04:44.000
barred from talking to the media about
his crimes. Assuming he's still alive.

910
01:04:44.079 --> 01:04:47.559
He is seventy years old now and
completely free. I don't know what he's

911
01:04:47.599 --> 01:04:50.400
been up to since his release,
or if he is still living at the

912
01:04:50.440 --> 01:04:56.320
monastery, but I can only hope
that he is a miserable, miserable person,

913
01:04:56.400 --> 01:05:00.920
because he does not deserve any happiness
in life. And I can't even

914
01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:04.000
believe that he was paroled. I
mean, I know laws are different in

915
01:05:04.039 --> 01:05:09.239
different countries and sentencing is different,
but for what he did, it's just

916
01:05:09.840 --> 01:05:14.440
horrendous crimes. Yeah. Annuel Correy, who is a well known French writer,

917
01:05:14.719 --> 01:05:18.239
became fascinated by Jean Claude's story and
wrote him a letter with a proposal

918
01:05:18.280 --> 01:05:23.719
to write a book with Jean Claude's
cooperation. It took a couple of years,

919
01:05:23.719 --> 01:05:29.320
but Jean Claude eventually responded and corresponded
with Corey over several years. The

920
01:05:29.360 --> 01:05:32.639
resulting book, called The Adversary,
was published in two thousand. It was

921
01:05:32.639 --> 01:05:36.199
a bestseller and was made into a
movie released in two thousand and two.

922
01:05:38.039 --> 01:05:41.320
It's a good book, and it
was my primary source for today's episode.

923
01:05:41.320 --> 01:05:45.199
But it was clear that Corey was
conflicted about writing the book, and in

924
01:05:45.239 --> 01:05:49.360
the book he explores his own obsession
with the story. It was an interesting

925
01:05:49.360 --> 01:05:53.239
book, but it did kind of
it did make me a little mad,

926
01:05:53.320 --> 01:05:58.159
like you're kind of giving this guy
as Yeah, so I had mixed feelings

927
01:05:58.639 --> 01:06:03.400
about the story. But that is
the story of a horrible, horrible man

928
01:06:03.440 --> 01:06:08.760
whose entire life was a lie,
and who annihilated his entire family to stop

929
01:06:08.800 --> 01:06:11.960
them from finding out. So rest
in peace to all of his victims,

930
01:06:12.159 --> 01:06:18.039
Florence, Caroline, Antoine and his
parents Emme and Anne Marie. Do you

931
01:06:18.079 --> 01:06:21.760
think his intention was to commit suicide? No, I think he was.

932
01:06:21.840 --> 01:06:26.039
I think he was a coward,
like just all in all. Maybe he

933
01:06:26.159 --> 01:06:30.280
in his mind he thought he wanted
to commit suicide, But I think it

934
01:06:30.360 --> 01:06:33.679
was a pretty weak attempt. Do
you know what happened to Karine? I

935
01:06:33.800 --> 01:06:40.639
don't know what became of Korean after
this whole story. So he took like

936
01:06:40.840 --> 01:06:45.800
nine hundred thousand francs from her,
but that was it. Yeah, I

937
01:06:45.800 --> 01:06:47.559
think that was it. Okay,
So the rest of the we don't know

938
01:06:47.559 --> 01:06:50.920
what happened to the rest of the
people. Well, I mean his money

939
01:06:50.960 --> 01:06:56.039
from his parents. Obviously he killed
his parents, so so he spent his

940
01:06:56.119 --> 01:07:00.880
parents whole Oh yeah, retirement.
Yeah, that's just devastating. I know.

941
01:07:01.280 --> 01:07:03.239
One of the things, there's so
many things about the story that make

942
01:07:03.280 --> 01:07:06.320
me mad, but one that really
makes me mad is the one that hit

943
01:07:06.519 --> 01:07:11.400
Florence's aunt and uncle. The uncle
was struggling with cancer, and he gave

944
01:07:11.480 --> 01:07:14.960
them hope so that he could get
money from them, and then he gave

945
01:07:15.000 --> 01:07:16.880
them a place ebo. You know. It just that makes me so mad.

946
01:07:16.920 --> 01:07:19.840
But the whole thing makes me mad. It just yeah, this is

947
01:07:19.880 --> 01:07:24.800
one of those stories that I will
not be able to leave behind anytime soon.

948
01:07:25.079 --> 01:07:29.920
Yeah, just disgusting, disgusting person. Yeah, It's like one thing

949
01:07:29.960 --> 01:07:34.280
to take people's money, but to
take their hope and their lives is very

950
01:07:34.280 --> 01:07:38.360
sad. Yeah. Well, thank
you so much for listening, and we

951
01:07:38.400 --> 01:07:41.079
did want to say before we close, if you've listened to us for a

952
01:07:41.119 --> 01:07:45.320
while, you know that every month
we donate part of the proceeds that we

953
01:07:45.360 --> 01:07:49.039
get from advertising and our patron program
to a charity, and this month we

954
01:07:49.679 --> 01:07:56.159
donated one hundred and fifty dollars to
the Black and Missing Foundation. You talked

955
01:07:56.159 --> 01:08:00.440
about this on Instagram the other day, But there's so much attention given certain

956
01:08:00.480 --> 01:08:03.199
missing person's cases, and there's so
many that are overlooked, and it's so

957
01:08:03.239 --> 01:08:09.519
many people of color minorities that go
missing, and so this organization they do

958
01:08:09.559 --> 01:08:15.760
a great job of trying to bring
the focus back to missing persons who are

959
01:08:15.800 --> 01:08:19.760
not covered in the media. People
of color in our society go missing at

960
01:08:19.760 --> 01:08:24.399
a disproportionate rate, and a lot
of times they are not given the attention

961
01:08:24.479 --> 01:08:28.279
that they deserve. We've said this
before, but every single person that goes

962
01:08:28.279 --> 01:08:32.840
missing deserves the same amount of attention
and the same amount of effort. I

963
01:08:32.840 --> 01:08:38.159
think a lot of times what happens
is, especially with the children and the

964
01:08:38.199 --> 01:08:43.880
teenagers, is they're just classified as
runaways and then they just don't know they

965
01:08:44.399 --> 01:08:46.319
know one always no one looks for
them. Yeah, so I would encourage

966
01:08:46.319 --> 01:08:51.720
you to follow the Black and Missing
Foundation on social media and then you'll see

967
01:08:53.079 --> 01:08:56.720
it's a shocking amount of people that
go go missing every day. They do

968
01:08:56.800 --> 01:09:02.000
a great job of updating with good
news or sad news, and they keep

969
01:09:02.000 --> 01:09:05.880
people's names out there, which is
really important. And so we really want

970
01:09:05.920 --> 01:09:10.520
to thank you our listeners, because
really it's the ads that you listen to,

971
01:09:10.880 --> 01:09:14.880
or for our supporters on Patreon,
it's the money that you provide that

972
01:09:14.960 --> 01:09:17.760
helps us make these donations. So
we appreciate it. A lot of people

973
01:09:17.800 --> 01:09:20.239
say thank you to us all the
time, like, thank you for donating,

974
01:09:20.279 --> 01:09:25.159
thank you for what you're doing.
But I'm going to get I'm going

975
01:09:25.199 --> 01:09:28.000
to get to your eyed because i
just get so emotional. But we are

976
01:09:28.000 --> 01:09:31.199
so grateful for you, our listeners, for supporting us and following us and

977
01:09:32.319 --> 01:09:39.279
listening to us jibber on Endlesslie.
When we started, we said that we

978
01:09:39.359 --> 01:09:42.159
wanted to give back as much as
possible, and right now we give back

979
01:09:42.199 --> 01:09:45.079
twenty five percent of any proceeds that
we make, and there are quite a

980
01:09:45.079 --> 01:09:50.920
few costs that we have in producing
the podcast too, So thank you so

981
01:09:51.039 --> 01:09:56.560
much for supporting us. Again,
yes, thank you, and please rate,

982
01:09:56.680 --> 01:10:00.880
review, follow and subscribe. Can
find us on social media or send

983
01:10:00.960 --> 01:10:05.119
us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail
dot com. Consider supporting us on Patreon

984
01:10:05.199 --> 01:10:10.920
dot com, slash Lovemary Kill one
tier five dollars a month for early ad

985
01:10:10.960 --> 01:10:15.920
free access and a monthly bonus episode. And until next time, don't kill

986
01:10:15.920 --> 01:11:06.359
your husband and don't kill your wife. Hi, I am rich. I

987
01:11:06.399 --> 01:11:15.159
don't know why it sounds, oh
god, okay, but at the prep

988
01:11:15.199 --> 01:11:26.399
school he was bullied and then he
developed a series of sinus in sorry laughing

989
01:11:26.399 --> 01:11:36.279
at someone's science infectionous. I don't
know what. I'm just picturing like,

990
01:11:36.439 --> 01:11:40.920
I don't know. He's like just
I don't know, just like a mama's

991
01:11:41.000 --> 01:11:44.119
boy, you know, with a
snivelly nose. I think that's exactly what he want