Gail and George Fulton - Part 2

0:00 Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned, and over twenty years of marriage. Some days you'll feel like killing your husband, and. Some days you'll feel like killing your wife. Welcome to love, Mary. Kill Hey Tina, Hey Rich. How are you? I'm good? How are you? I'm doing good? Normally we record part one and part two very close together, but this time, pretty much a whole week has gone by. I know, and you had your first week at your new job. How was it?

0:40 It was really good. I mean it was a short week, it was only four days, but everyone is super nice and everyone everyone. I have not met anyone who wasn't nice so far. You sure, well, I haven't met everyone yet. So you want audition anyone in the office. Now is the time that few people this podcast. Now is not the time, and I would I don't have anything to dish about anyway. But no, it was very good first week. I really love the company's product. I think the people are great. So you've been in good spirits. That's good to see you. Yeah. So in the mornings, you are always up at least an hour before I am. You get up and you take a shower, because you have an actual job to get to where you know, I stay up later working and we just have kind of different schedules, and usually I don't see you for a couple of hours when you're up, and oftentimes we find that we are wearing not the same outfit, but very similar outfits. It happens a lot, where just the other day it wasn't it was just random. It was like we were both wearing blue sweatshirts with hoods on them, which I wear a lot of hoodies, so that's not a surprise. But or it'll be like khaki shorts and a black T shirt or whatever, like we're wearing similar colors. It happens a lot.

1:47 So today after my shower, I knew we were recording of like, okay, what would Rich be wearing today? And I was like looking, and I was trying to like, you don't match my brain with yours, and we are matching. Yeah, you nailed it, black putty, but I wear black. Like it's been really chilly and rainy and cloudy here in Michigan this week. It's so weird that it's going to be a Memorial weekend. I know. I think it's like fifty five out, it's really chilly, kind of a bummer, But yeah, we're both wearing black hoodie. It seems to happen. And we're both wearing leggings. I am not wearing leggings. I am wearing my usual blue jeans. But yeah, it seems to happen a lot when we record. For some reason, on recording day, we seem to wear the same thing a lot.

2:29 Well, it's not just recording days, but sometimes it's easy to predict what you're going to wear because you wear the same things a lot. But also, like on game day, you're going to wear you know, your Michigan's game stuff, and. It's harder to predict. During baseball season, there's a game like almost every. Day, right right, and you actually don't wear much Tigers stuff. Now it's because it's every day. You can't. I can't wear a Tigers thing every day. But if it's a big game, yeah, playoff, playoff time, I'll be wearing a lot of Tigers gear. Well, sometimes on recording days you'll wear a love Mary He'll sweatshirt. True, that's true. Well, before we get to part two of the Gail and George Fulton case, I have another super special snack today from one of our listeners. Fellow Michigander Sarah sent us this snack and it's from a company called Michigan Awesome, which I had never heard of.

3:15 You don't know that company? Yeah, I don't know it either, but a really cute box. It's the really cute box. And I think you're gonna like what's inside of it. I think I know what's inside of it, do you? Yeah? I might have peaked. Oh okay, well I think you're gonna like it. An yeah. But before we have the snack, I wanted to give a quick shout out to a fundraiser that Sarah and her husband help organize. It's called Miles for Miracles. It's a cancer fundraiser put on by the Mount Pleasant Middle School staff and students. Sarah and her husband are both teachers there. One hundred percent of the money goes to local cancer services. They're actually today holding a school wide celebration of life, but they're always accepting donations, so we'll include a link to the charity website in our show notes.

3:55 I think they've raised a ton of money over the years too. Yeah, Sarah and her husband, and we love Mary Kill will be making a donation too. Yeah, it's a great cause. So what Sarah sent us from Michigan Awesome are two things, dark chocolate cherries and cinnamon roasted almonds, which both amazing, really good. Let's try. What did you think about those Michigan Awesome snacks? What's not to like about Michigan Awesome snacks? They were both really good. Yeah, very good. The almonds reminded me of like when you go to the ballpark and you smell them roasting the cinnamon roasted almonds. So good, very good. I love cherries in any form, but the dark chocolate cherries are a big favorite. Yeah.

4:41 And a lot of Michigan towns, like our tourists destinations. We have Cherry Republic. If you've ever been to a cherry Republic, they have tons of samples, so it's always fun to go in there and try the different things that they have. Yeah, for sure. Well, thanks again Sarah for sending those. That was so nice of you. We really appreciate it. Well, if you haven't already listened to part one of this case, you should go back and do that now. But do you want to give us a quick synopsis before we dive into part two. Well, you were nice enough to write it out Otherwise, I don't think I could give you a lot of fine detail. I do remember some crazy things about part one. Gail Fulton was a devoted wife and mother living in Lake Orion, Michigan. Her husband, George, had once dreamed of success and stability, but instead found himself entangled in an affair with Donna Trapani, his volatile and manipulative boss in Florida.

5:28 What began as a secret romance spiraled into a tangled web of lies, emotional blackmail, and broken promises. Donna claimed she was pregnant and dying of cancer, and George, torn between guilt, obligation and desire, tried to have it both ways. Gail, devastated and spiraling into depression, struggled to hold her family together while her children tried to care for her. Then came the July fourth peace summit at a motel, where Donna, Gail, and George attempted the unthinkable to work things out over line at Olive Garden. It did not go well. Now, with George claiming he was done with Donna and promising to recommit to his family and marriage, the question was was it really over, and what would Donna do next to try to manipulate George into staying. I googled a picture of George and Gail, and they looked like a really nice couple. Georgees do look like a filandering piece of garbage.

6:23 It's hard to tell by looking at a picture of somebody who is a philandering piece of garbage. But I know he was. But in the picture they look very respectable. They looked like a very nice, loving couple. Yeah, remind me where we left off at the very end of part one. So after the July fourth debacle where they all met had lunch at Olive Garden, George took Gail home, but then he said, oh, I have to go back to the motel to stay with Donna because she is not well. And so he went back and he actually spent the night with Donna. But then he came back the next day and told Gail it's over really with Donna, Like I'm done with her this time. I mean it. I think if you chose to spend one more night, I would have been like, Nope, well yeah, done with you.

7:03 Right, Yeah, for sure. After the chaos of July fourth, Gail did something extraordinary. She forgave him. She wanted to move forward desperately, but George he wasn't exactly falling over himself to make amends. He refused to apologize. When Gail told him what Donna had said to her in private, he didn't believe her. What did Donna say? I think she said something to the effect of, you've had him for twenty five years, it's my turn now, bitch. That's really nice. Emily, their daughter, who had just graduated high school, was furious. She urged her mother to kick him out and to move on. She supported Gail, but deep down, she also pitied her. She couldn't understand why her mother was letting this man walk all over her.

7:45 But George insisted this time he was serious. He was done with Donna. He began making real efforts. He went back to church with Gail. He agreed to counseling with their parish priest. They even started talking about vacations together, and for the first time in a long time, Gail seemed happy. But Donna was not going to go quietly. She continued calling the house, pretending the calls were work related. If Gail or Emily answered, she would launch into cruel tirades. She emailed George, constantly flipping between seductive messages and vicious guilt trips. She warned him that the stress that he had caused was putting her pregnancy at risk, and that if she miscarried, it would be his fault. Her emails trashed Gail, calling her cold, hateful, evil. Donna painted herself as the victim, alone, dying carrying his child. She begged George to return to Florida, just for a little while, just to be there for her in her final days.

8:39 Donna even called Gail's mother, Dora. She told her with eerie confidence that George was coming back to Florida, leaving Gail for good, and that Dora should go to Michigan to support her daughter through the inevitable. And Yet, even through Donna's campaign of harassment, George still didn't cut her off completely. He continued helping her with business matters, even sent her flowers before an upcoming financial audit. In one note, he wrote, I still love. You, George. He's still he wanted to have it both ways. In late September, George told Donna that he was coming to Florida one final time to collect the rest of his things, but this time he planned to bring Gail with him.

9:20 That for Donna was the final betrayal. She left George a voicemail, and I'm going to ask you to read this voicemail. This is asking a lot. I know you are a really good actress and you're going to do a great job here. But I think it's a long voicemail. But I think it's important to get into the mind of Donna Trapani. So I'm not sure if you're giving me a backhanded compliment or not, like you think that I can play a sociopathic liar, or. I think you are an excellent actor. That was my compliment to you, is that I think you have a wide range that you can do. All right, Let's see what I can do here, all right. So the voicemail just started here because when she started, her voice was very calm. She told George that bringing Gail to Florida would be quote one of the lowest class things you could do. And then she continued on from there and here's well, or I'll have you take over.

10:09 Well or I dive in full disclosure. I am already wrinkled about something else. Personal. So why would you flaunt something like that in front of me, knowing how much I am already hurting, know how much pain and anguish I am going through. How could you do something so cruel? You know, I know that she's cold and she's cruel, but Gail is turning you into being someone just like her, one cold and cruel, heartless person. I cannot believe you would have the audacity to want to bring her down here and flaunt her in front of me and make my pain worse. Don't you know how difficult it was going to be to see you anyway and not be able to spend any time with you. But I was willing to do that, and I was willing to give it a try and see if I could stay away from you. But then for you to bring her down here, that's just slow class, it's evil, it's cruel. It's very low and bastardly of you to do that, and I hope that God punishes you for what you're doing. It's bad enough I had to listen to you talk mean and hateful to me this morning, make up a bunch of damn lies and everything else, and all that cruelty, and you want to bring her down here and you want me to be in my bedroom and know that your ass is out there with this damn bitch making love to her, being in the hot tub with her, swimming with her, eating with her, in my own city, my own town, and I'm here by myself and all alone. That is so damn evil and low class of you. You are not the man I thought you were, and I don't know how you can be so cruel. This is just like

11:40 taking a gun and sticking it in my brain and my stomach and blowing my brains out. I was willing for you to come down and you to do your job, and I was trying to stay apart. I was willing to try. I was not going to touch you. I was not going to kiss you or hold you. I was not going to do nothing to you because you've done just told me, didn't love me. And if you didn't want I mean the night didn't want you. But you won't even give it a try. You won't go ahead and bring that damn bitch down here. Well, that bitch is not wanted in the city. She could stay. Her ass are in Michigan where she belongs, because she damn sure don't belong here. In my city. That is her city there and this one is mine down here, and that's the way it needs to stay.

12:21 I don't think Donna was laughing when she said all this. I'm sorry I broke there at the end, bad grammar is really hard for me. That was hard. You did a really really good job up until the time that you broke a cold read. Yes it was very good. But yeah, that was the message that Donna left for George. Yikes. Sybil Paget was thirty four years old, a single mom with two kids, a drug habit, and not much direction in her life. She had known Donna for years and worked for her at HHCs. Donna liked having Sybil around because Sybil was loyal. She didn't ask questions, She did what she was told, and for that, Donna paid her well In return. Sibyl was indebted to her, But Sybil wasn't exactly reliable. One day, a supervisor at HHCs made some routine calls to check in on patients Sybil was supposed to be visiting one after another. The reports came in. Sybil had never shown up, not once, and yet she had submitted paperwork and notes claiming that she had the supervisor fired her on the spot.

13:23 Can believed that, like she was, this is a home healthcare business where they're taking care of elderly people, very sick people, very ill people, and Sybil just didn't show up. That's horrible, really horrible. But Donna overruled the firing and she said, no, we have to give her another chance. That was Sibyl's value to Donna, loyalty, not competence. So when Donna decided that Gail Fulton, the woman standing between her and George, needed to be removed, she turned to Sibyl. Sibil, in turn, had a nineteen year old boyfriend named Patrick Alexander. Patrick had no job, no direction, and no real future. He was fifteen years younger than Sibyl and mostly interested in sex.

14:04 He also had a record hair and possession and a prior conviction for assaulting a woman. At some point, Sibil's mother, Helen, overheard the couple talking about a job that Donna wanted done. It sounded dangerous, but they said it would be easy money. Helen didn't know the details, but she begged Sibyl to stay out of it. At the end of September, Sybil told her mom that she and Patrick were going out of town for a few days. Helen needed to watch the kids. Then Sibil and Patrick hit the road, driving north to Michigan. They weren't flying blind. Donna had given them a road map of Metro Detroit. On it were drawn circles, one around Gail Fulton's house, another around the Orion Township Library where she worked. At first, Donna wanted them to kidnap Gail and bring her back to Florida.

14:48 That way Donna could deal with her personally, but she eventually decided that was too risky. Plan B kill Gail, but make it look more like a suicide. After all, Gail had talked about suicide before. Donna even drafted a fake suicide note to leave with the body. But ultimately Donna landed on a third option, the simplest in her mind, Kill Gail and make it look like a random act of violence, a robbery gone wrong, a drive by, anything that wouldn't lead back to her. We are both familiar with late Gorean and that's really not a place where drive by has happened. No, not at all, very safe community. Once in Michigan, Sybil and Patrick began tracking Gaile's movements. They followed her, took notes, learned her routine, but seeing her in real life changed everything. They saw Gail's kids coming and going from the house. They saw her as a person, not a target, and they couldn't go through with it. They drove back to Florida. When they returned, the job not done, Donna was livid. She stormed around the house, slamming dishes into the sink. I sent y'all to do one simple job for me, she fumed. And y'all couldn't even do that. I don't know where that accent just came from.

15:56 I know it was brilliant. After Sibyl and Patrick failed to follow through, Donna needed someone else, someone who wouldn't hesitate, someone prone to violence and lacking a conscience. And that's when Kevin Oohlett entered the picture. Kevin was a six foot two hundred and thirty five pound brawler who had no problem using his fists for money. His girlfriend, Stephanie, happened to be Sybil's roommate. Kevin had been living in Akron, Ohio, but decided to return to Florida to be with Stephanie. Just two hours from home, his car broke down Stephanie drove out and picked him up. Kevin had a job lined up in Florida, but with no car and no money, there was no way to make it work. That's when Sybil said the magic words quote, I know a way to make some easy money. She told Kevin that a friend of hers needed someone beaten up. Kevin didn't flinch. He'd done that kind of work before and was happy to do it again for the right price. So Sybil, Patrick, Kevin, and Stephanie all drove to Donna's house. Stephanie stayed in the living room. Kevin didn't want her involved in whatever this was.

16:56 Inside the bedroom, Donna laid it out. She explained that you've been dating a man who left her for another woman. She wanted quote this bitch taken care of. But as she talked, Kevin realized this wasn't about a beating. Donna wanted the woman dead. Kevin didn't blink, especially when Donna said she'd pay him five thousand dollars for the job. He agreed, but on one condition. Sybil and Patrick had to go with him. They knew the area, they knew Gail's habits. They would be his guides. Sybil said, The only predictable time in Gail's week was Monday nights. Gail worked at the Orion Township Public Library on Joslyn Road every Monday and clocked out at nine pm sharp. Donna, ever obsessed with covering her tracks, suggested something chilling. She wanted everyone who walked out of the library that night to be shot. That way, it would look like a random attack, not a targeted hit.

17:47 Isn't that horrible? Wow? I know, I can't even I can't imagine paying someone to kill someone else anyway. But then to say, oh, just kill all the other people there, you know, five people whatever, that's just that's so, that is horrible, I do imagine. But even Kevin had a line. He flaty refused. I'll do the job, he said, but I'm not shooting innocent people. I don't care how much you pay me. In his mind, Gail wasn't innocent because the story that Donna told him was that Gail stole her man away from her. Okay, but still, it's really not a reason to kill someone. No, of course not. Donna backed off, Fine, she said, just Gail, and that was that. The plan was said. Donna gave Kevin half of the money up front, he used it to make a down payment on something he'd always wanted, a nineteen seventy four Transam, a muscle car.

18:31 So Kevin was basically willing to kill someone just so that he could buy an old you scold car. Yeah. On Sunday, October third, the trio Kevin, Sibil, and Patrick set off from Michigan in a rental car provided by Donna. The gun had been supplied by a friend of Sibyl's. One problem, the car's taillight was busted. Patrick had backed into a tree the night before at a party. They patched it up with tape the best they could and hit the road. They stopped in Akron, Ohio, where Kevin said he could score some weed. He called up an old friend and the group partied in their hotel room. They bought some marijuana and some bullets. The friend didn't ask what they were really up to. The next morning, Monday, October fourth, they got back in the car and drove the final three and a half hours to Lake Orion, Michigan.

19:15 The plan was in motion. It's kind of odd to me that Sibil and Patrick weren't willing to kill Gail, but they were willing to go along for the ride, right. And it's not clear to me whether Donna paid them any money or whether they just kind of went along for I don't know, a road trip or something. I've got the impression that they saw Gail and they were like, Oh, she seems like a nice lady. We don't want to kill her. Yeah. I think they had qualms about doing it themselves, but they didn't have a qualm about somebody else doing it and being there. So these people are all just horrible people. We'll be back after a break.

19:57 During our break, I just want to report that I assaulted. I deserved it. I tried to take a couple of dark chocolate covered cherries out of the bag that our listener, Sarah so kindly sent us, and you Sarah not having. Me to have the cherries, she specifically told me Tina, the cherries are per use. Rich has treats all the time. I do know that those are your favorites, so I appreciate you letting me have a couple more. It was just after eight pm on Monday, October fourth, nineteen ninety nine, when Kevin, Sibil, and Patrick pulled into the parking lot of the Orion Township Public Library. There were still quite a few cars in the lot. Sybil spotted Gail's maroon Plymouth Grand Voyager. They got out to check if it was unlocked. The plan, Plan A was for Kevin to crouch in the back seat and ambush her. As soon as she started to drive away, he would shoot her in the back of the head. But the van was locked.

20:53 Good Jet Gail, so they went to Plan B. Kevin and Sybil slashed one of the tires on her car. The idea was simple. Once the library closed and everyone else drove off, Gail would be stuck alone. Patrick walked into the library to scope things out. When he returned, he reported that Gail was inside working, along with four or five others. With time to spare, the three drove around for about half an hour, then returned to the lot at eight thirty. They parked near the back where they had a clear line of sight to the employee entrance and to Gaile's vehicle. Kevin stepped out and covered their license plate with a T shirt, just in. Case remind us of the year. It was nineteen ninety nine. After Kevin covered up the license plate, he got back in the car, and then the three waited inside library supervisor Barb, Buttkiss and her colleagues were shutting down for the night. Barb and another employee, Kathy, planned to stay a few extra minutes to run a computer back up. The rest of the employees, including Gail, said their goodbyes and headed for the door. Out in the lot in their rental car, Sybil slipped on a baseball cap, Kevin pulled down a black ski mask. He sat in the back of the car, gun in hand.

21:59 Patrick was in the driver's seat while Sybil rode shotgun. Their plan worked perfectly. Gaile and the other library aids exited the building and got into their cars. One by one, they drove off into the night. Gaile followed until she noticed that something was wrong just a few yards from her parking spot. She stopped the van. She got out, walked around the passenger side, and saw the flat tire. By then, her co workers were already gone. As Gaile leaned down to inspect the damage, Patrick pulled out of their space and drove toward the van. Kevin jumped out of the back seat. He moved quickly, gun raised. Gaile turned her eyes met his A man in a ski mask, walking straight toward her. She didn't even have time to scream.

22:40 Kevin fired one shot to her head. Gaile collapsed instantly. He fired four more rounds into her body as she lay on the cold pavement. Then he turned and sprinted back to the car, yelling go, go go. Patrick hit the gas. It had taken seconds, and just like that, Gaile Fulton lay dying on the ground. Around nine ten pm, library supervisor Barb Buckkiss and her coworker Kathy finished the computer backup and walked toward the employee exit. As they stepped into the cool night air, they entered the code to lock the door behind them. That's when Barb noticed something in the distance. At first, it looked like a pile of clothes, maybe someone dropped a coat or a bag. But as she walked closer, her stomach dropped. It was Gail.

23:24 She was lying on the ground, motionless near her van. For a moment, Barb thought she might have fainted, but then she saw it, the blood near Gail's head. Even then, the idea that Gail had been shot didn't occur to them. Barb and Kathy could only assume that she had fallen and hit her head. Kathy ran back inside and called nine one one. Barb knelt down beside Gail. She was breathing, but barely. An officer from the Oakland County Sheriff's Department arrived just a few minutes later at nine fifteen pm. He approached Barb and gently asked her to remove the cloth that she was using to apply pressure to Gail's head. Look, and he knew it was a gunshot wound. Paramedics arrived soon after. They tried to save her, but it was too late. Gail Fulton died that night in the parking lot of the library she loved, at just forty eight years old. Poor Gail, that's so horrible, I know, it really is so sad.

24:17 And her poor friends who were trying to save her life, kneeling down and applying pressure to the woad down her head. It's just so heartbreaking. I don't think you would ever recover from, you know, seeing that and seeing your friend, who I'm sure they adored, dying in front of you is really tragic. Yeah, it really is. Police quickly cordoned off the scene and issued an alert, knowing that the shooters couldn't have gone far. Bob mentioned that the library had security cameras facing the parking lot. A maintenance worker was called in to help retrieve the footage. Time was critical, so investigators reviewed the footage right there on site. Woh, the images were grainy, but they captured the attack. Three people appeared to be in the vehicle, and one crucial detail stood out.

24:59 The cow had a broken tail light. It wasn't much, but it was something. Meanwhile, Barb placed a call to Gaile's home At that very moment. George was on the phone with Donna, still speaking on his business line, but it was Andrew who answered the home phone. He got his father and handed him the phone. Barb's voice was shaky. Something had happened to Gail. George and Andrew rushed to the library, arriving around nine point thirty. How old is Andrew? He was like sixteen. I think that so horrible for him to see that. When George and Andrew arrived at the library, they weren't allowed to see the scene. Police escorted them to the police station instead. That's where they told George Gail had been killed. His response was odd, no tears, no questions, no visible grief. He didn't ask who had done it or why the officers noticed.

25:48 But remember we're not supposed to judge people on their reaction. Yeah, we really can't, especially in George's case, because I think George was just a difficult person. He was just his manner was always a little bit stiff and odd, and I think that was just how he reacted as they questioned him. George's tone was kurt dismissive. He gave short, clipped answers. He seemed irritated more than shocked. It wasn't the reaction of a man who had just lost his wife in a brutal shooting, and the police took note. After the shooting, Patrick Sibil and Kevin sped out of the library parking lot just a few blocks away. They pulled over briefly so Kevin could remove the t shirt covering the license plate. Then they were back on the road, heading south fast. They didn't stop until they crossed the Ohio border. At a truck stop, Kevin went inside to buy a bottle of liquor. He needed something to calm his nerves. They kept driving through the night, eventually stopping at a motel in Kentucky to get a few hours of sleep. The next day, while crossing a bridge in Tennessee, Kevin decided it was time to ditch the weapon. He rolled down the window and tossed the gun toward the water below, so they didn't even stop the vehicle. He just tossed it out the window, but instead of splashing into the river, it the guard rail and bounced right back onto the roadway behind them. They didn't turn around to retrieve it. There was too much traffic. They kept going.

27:09 I never heard whether anyone actually found the gun or not. I'm sure somebody found it, but whoever found it maybe didn't turn it into the police and just said, oh, free gun. On the road. When they returned to Florida, finally, their first stop was Donna's house. She owed Kevin the remaining twenty five hundred dollars for the hit, but she only gave him one thousand dollars. I'm waiting on a check to clear, she said. No one pushed back. From there, the group headed to a nearby waffle house. They ordered breakfast and sat around the table, eating, laughing and congratulating themselves on a job well done. Just hours after murdering Gail Fulton in cold Blood, police began their investigation by interviewing the Fulton family, George, Emily, and Andrew. Although George's behavior struck investigators as suspicious, his alibi was solid. Andrew, just two months shy of his eighteenth birthday, old police. He had come home around eight thirty that evening. You just said he was sixteen.

28:04 I know, Sorry, my mistake. He heard his dad working downstairs in his home office, then sat in the den to watch TV. He was there the whole time until the phone rang at nine twenty pm, when it was barbed from the library. There was no way, he said that his father could have left the house without him noticing. Andrew talked about his parents strained marriage and how his father had carried on an affair with his boss. He believed it started sometime in late nineteen ninety eight. He didn't know it had actually begun a full year earlier, on Halloween night in nineteen ninety seven. But more recently, he said things had seemed better. The affair was over and his parents were trying to rebuild their relationship. Emily had been out that night at a pampered chef party. She returned home around eleven pm to find police inside the house. An officer gently pulled her inside and said there had been an incident involving her mother. Emily didn't wait for any more details.

28:57 She snapped, quote, that bitch, That bitch killed my mom. Then, as if reading the room, she added quote, you're going to blame my father, but I need to tell you what happened. It's not my father. She did it with other people. Wow. Emily would later claim she had sent something all day, an unshakable psychic feeling. In her words, she had quote seen what happened. I think in part one we talked about Emily going to visit Donna at the motel she was at because she thought she could read her aura's right and tell if she was pregnant or not. And Emily in the book that I read for this case by em William Phelps, he talks a lot about that Emily had a lot of psychic premonitions, visions, things like that. That and she had a bad feeling all day, and she didn't want to go home because she had that bad feeling. So she was at this pampered chef party and she stayed there instead of going home because she was kind of dreading going back to find out what happened to her mom.

29:55 Because we have so many international listeners when we say things like a pampered chef party, always curious if people know really what we're talking about. Pampered chef party? Well, do you even know? I'm not really? I mean I can, I can kind of imagine they. Used to be bigger. I haven't gone to one in years, but it would. It's like kitchen stuff, you know, like I think I had a greater from there, and just you know a lot of fun kitchen gadgets and things like that. Like they used to have tupperware parties way back in the day, and then pampered chef parties became popular. I just think it's funny that you know so much about the parties that ladies go to. The police brought George back in for a more formal interview. The first conversation hadn't gone well, and this one wasn't much better.

30:35 They asked if he and Gail had been having marital problems. George's answer was affirm almost aggressive no. They asked about the affair. George admitted to it, but insisted that it was over and that he and Gail were reconciling. Then came the big question, did he think Donna Trapani could have had anything to do with Gail's murder? Again, he was emphatic no, she could never do something like that. He added that he had spoken to Donna four or five times that day, calls, he claimed, we're strictly business, including he said, exactly at nine pm, the time of the murder. I don't know why that makes me so mad. I know, yeah, it's almost like she called him knowing that it was going to happen, and partly maybe to establish an alibi, but obviously she was in Florida.

31:19 Just like, so just so sad that Gail is dying at the end. Right, and it's like Donna just wanted to be on the phone with George right at that time. Just yeah, she's horrible, horrible. When asked if he would take a polygraph, George refused, quote, I don't believe in polygraphs. He said that added, and you know what, I'm all done talking with you. I need to leave, and just like that the interview was over. George saying that he doesn't believe in polygraphs is so funny to me, George, it doesn't matter if you believe it's really what the police believe. It's really not something that is a matter of belief or not. Later that night, around one am, investigators called Jhona Trapani at her home in Florida. She answered, sounding groggy but alert.

32:01 The officer asked her about her relationship with George, the affair, and her company. When was the last time they spoke, When had their sexual relationship ended? Do you think Donna was surprised that they called her so quickly? No, I don't think she was at all surprised. Donna was calm, open, cooperative. She answered everything without hesitation, But something struck the officer at the end of the call. Not once had Donna asked why they were calling her at one am to ask questions about George Fulton. It was almost as if she already knew. As investigators dug deeper into Donna Trapani, the red flags kept piling up. They listened to the voicemails, rage filled, erratic, emotionally manipulative messages that she had left for George and even for Gail's mother, Dora. The more they heard, the more convinced they became that Donna was behind this. She had an airtight alibi she had been one thousand miles away, but it didn't matter. The tone of the messages, the obsession, the threat laced language. They all pointed to someone who was capable of orchestrating murder. If Donna didn't pull the trigger, she almost certainly hired someone who did. And when it comes to murder for hire, there are two things that nearly always bring the whole plan crashing down a money trail and loose lipped co conspirators. Investigators knew it was only a matter of time. George, meanwhile, remained a person of interest, but something had shifted. After consulting with a lawyer, he returned to the police, this time with a new attitude, cooperative, open, willing to talk. He even agreed to take a polygraph.

33:31 At one point, Seemingly aware that the investigations still had him in its sights. George told detectives quote, if there comes a time when you have to arrest me, I hope you don't do it at the airport or in front of my children. I'll come in here any time you want me to. Why not the air. I think just public places. Maybe it was what he was kind of getting at. His statement raised eyebrows, it sounded more like a man bracing for something than one who felt truly cleared. At Gayle's funeral, held in her hometown, of course, Orpis Christy George flew in to say goodbye, but not everyone was comforted by his presence. Many of the mourners watched him with cold eyes, convinced he was merely playing the part of the grieving widower.

34:11 You know, I feel really bad. I have not asked about Donna's pregnancy, how is she feeling, how is that going? And her cancer treatment. I know Donna's got a lot going on. No is she doing okay with all the extra added stress? Just hold titan, we'll find out. A few days after Gail's murder, Donna showed up at Sibyl's house. She'd brought more cash for Kevin, but once again, it wasn't the full amount that she owed him. That didn't sit well. Kevin was growing increasingly irritated with her broken promises. There's one thing I've learned doing true crime. You pay your hitman the full amount. Yeah. Absolutely. And I don't know if you remember from part one, but Donna's business was going under. It was like she was completely underwater, about to go bankrupt, about to close the doors of the business, so she was not in a good place financially. Donna also brought something else with her to Sibyls that day, a folder stuffed with newspaper clippings about the murder. She pointed out that the headlines were calling it a professional hit. It was meant as a compliment. She told Kevin he had done a great job, but there was one detail that dampened their self congratulations. The crew hadn't realized that the library had security cameras. The story made it clear Gail's murder had been caught on video. Donna and Kevin both knew the police were starting to connect the dots, so Donna came up with what she considered a brilliant plan. She wanted Kevin to go back to Michigan, find a random drug addict down the street, kill him, and leave a note on the body. The note would say that the wrong person had been killed in the library shooting, that

35:42 it had been a botched job. Her hope was to throw off the police and make it look like Gail's murder was just a tragic mistake. So I'll just say I am not sure, I fully understand what Donna's big plan was here, Like, I think she was trying to say that, oh, we'll kill this person and then make it look like that person was supposed to kill someone else, but killed the wrong person. So they killed themselves because they were no. So somebody else killed them for I don't know. It's such a convoluted, crazy plan. It makes no sense, but that was I think Donna's mind was just trying to be freaking out. Yeah, I imagine. Business is going under. She's pregnant, she has cancer. You're not going to tell me those things are false, are you?

36:25 Well, I guess we'll have to find out. So for Donna's new master plan, she offered Kevin another five thousand dollars for this follow up job. Kevin said sure, he would do it, but he actually had no intention of going through with it. He just wanted the money. He told Donna he needed the cash up front. His plan was to take the money and disappear, but when the time came to meet up and collect, Donna never showed. Kevin was furious, but instead of pushing it, he decided he was done. He took a job as a cross country trucker and hit the road, leaving Florida behind. With Gail out of the way, Donna seemed to believe it was finally time to reclaim her man. She and George resumed contact not long after the murder, mostly to discuss business.

37:08 George was frustrated Donna owed him money for consulting work he had done, and with her company circling the drain, she had fallen behind by more than thirteen thousand dollars. Still, Donna saw opportunity. On Halloween, four weeks after Gail's death and two years to the day since she and George had first met, Donna sent him a card. It was filled with memories of their first night together, their connection, her longing for his voice, his laugh. The card had I Love you printed on the inside. Donna added the word in her handwriting. Still, she also sent a dozen red roses. George didn't bring them home. He took them to his church and left them there. By then, he had started to consider the unthinkable that Donna might have had Gail killed.

37:53 I don't think that's unthinkable. It shouldn't be unthinkable that George was just so slow and clueless. It's just it boggles the mind. But George wanted nothing of her in his home. But Donna didn't stop. Throughout November, she kept emailing him. When she didn't get the response she wanted, she tried a new tactic. On November twenty ninth, George's fax machine word to life, out came an anonymous letter eighteen pages, single spaced as a supposedly anonymous letter to George on his fax machine that Donna used all the time. Right. The supposed author claimed to be a friend of Gail's. According to the letter, Gail had once told this friend a shocking secret. She had given George a homemade herbal truth serum one night while he was asleep. Under its influence, George had confessed how much he loved Donna and how miserable he was at home. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, I think, in all the cases we've ever done. So Donna sends, well, we know it was Donna.

38:55 Right. She sends this anonymous letter, supposedly from a friend of Gail's, saying, Oh, Gail gave you truth serum one night, and you told Gail how much you loved Donna. The letter went on to describe Donna as being really smart and special. It said that George should go back to her, his true love, if he ever hoped to be happy. It was totally absurd, and it was obvious who had written it. It was a desperate, last ditch effort from Donna Trapani to win George back. Donna is not well, is she? No? She is not well. It didn't work, but at that point it didn't matter because Donna was about to have bigger problems. The walls were closing in. We'll be back after a break.

39:42 The case broke wide open in mid November. Investigators had been working to identify the car captured in the grainy library surveillance footage. From the video, they determined it was a Chevy Malibu with a busted tail light. They started calling car rental agencies hoping to find a map, and they got one. A wrential agency in Florida told detectives that a woman named Donna Trapani had been a regular customer and that she always requested Malibu's. One of those cars had been rented on September tenth and still hadn't been returned. The agency said they'd repeatedly tried to reach Donna She owed them money and had claimed that she was dealing with a family emergency, but now she wasn't answering calls at all. Then came another break. An old friend and sometime lover of Civil Paget came forward. He told police that one night, while they were lying in bed, Sybil casually mentioned that her friend Donna was looking for someone to kill a woman. He assumed that she was joking, but later she brought it up again and this time introduced him to Donna. She made it clear that she wasn't joking. She was looking to have someone in Michigan killed.

40:50 At first, he didn't take it seriously, but when Gail's murder hit the news, everything clicked and his conscience got the better of him. He called the police. Detectives went straight to Sybil Paget's house and parked out front was a Chevy Malibu with a broken tail light. That was all they needed. When Sybil opened the door and saw two detectives standing there, she knew the game was up. She agreed to talk, and then she told them everything. She was arrested on the spot. Next they picked up Patrick Alexander. Like Sybil, Patrick didn't put up a fight. He admitted his role in the murder plot, emphasized that he was only the getaway driver, but confessed to everything he knew. His story matched Sibyl's. Then the police asked where's Kevin Olette. Patrick didn't know exactly, but he thought Kevin had taken a job as a long haul trucker.

41:37 Investigators tracked down the trucking company, who confirmed that Kevin was on the road headed towards Connecticut. The truck was GPS equipped, they could see exactly where he was at all times. Two days later, police arrested Kevin at a rest stop in Connecticut, and like the others, Kevin knew it was over. He cooperated. His account matched Sybil and Patrick's down to the Molli's detail. Now there was only one person left to arrest, the woman who'd orchestrated it all, the big fish, Donna Trapani. On December one, nineteen ninety nine, detectives knocked on her door, no answer. One officer left a card on the door, and then they parked a few houses down to watch. A Short time later, the detective's cell phone rang. It was Donna. She apologized for missing them and invited them to come back inside. She was calm, chatty, almost cheerful. She talked freely about her relationship with George, about the July fourth misunderstanding, and about her pregnancy. She said that she was due in three weeks, although her belly barely showed. She also tried to ship the blame. She told investigators that she had confided in Sybyl about her heartbreakover George. According to Donna, Sibyl had become so angry on her behalf that she decided to seek revenge. It was a clear attempt to set Sybil up as the mastermind.

42:58 That's quite quite a time by Donna, like, oh yeah, Sybil was just trying to protect me. She just looked me so much. That's crazy. Then something bizarre happened. Donna's cat jumped up on the couch and walked across her lap. The detectives noticed something strange. The paw prints left indentations like the cat had stepped on a pillow. Donna's pregnant belly wasn't real. I like to believe that that cat had it out for Donna. The cat was probably so sick of Donna, like I'm going to expose you. That's really funny. They decided to confront her emotionally. They showed her graphic crime scene photos of Gail's body, hoping to provoke guilt, but Donna wasn't disturbed. She was fascinated.

43:41 She leaned in studying the blood soaked images while casually eating pretzels. At one point, she even asked for a closer look. Oh, Donna, is she's just something, isn't she Yeah. For a moment, it seemed that she might confess. She said quote, I mean, if I did do this, if I am guilty and I did do this, then why can't I I just be killed and put under two If I did it, I need to give my life. I cannot say what you want me to say. If I sat here for the rest of my life, I wouldn't be able to explain it to you. I don't know how to say it. It's nothing that was supposed to happen. I got duped, but not by the people you think. It was never supposed to happen. I know that quote by Donna is very confusing, but it's just a glimpse into her mind. I think she was just very Her thoughts were not really coherent, Okay.

44:28 But then Donna stopped. She asked to call her lawyer. Detectives arrested Donna Trapani for murder and conspiracy to commit murder. During the booking process, they discovered the truth behind her fake pregnancy. Donna had stuffed several placements down the front of her pants, trying to make her stomach appear swollen. The act was over, so she did not even invest in like a fake pregnancy. Bellies, just know she did things in her pants. I didn't mention it in the script too, but there was one mention I found that the police officers were like doing the math of the date when she supposedly became pregnant. I think she must have told them at one point and they were like, it's like eleven months after that. So that didn't really make a lot of sense.

45:08 And did George never do the math or did he really not believe that she was pregnant? I think George never questioned it or didn't really maybe question it until afterwards, but he just he was so naive and didn't really question things. So Sybil, Kevin, and Patrick had all confessed, but Donna, she wasn't going down without a fight. Her defense, however, far fetched was that Sybil Paget, in an act of twisted loyalty, had taken it upon herself to avenge Donna's broken heart. According to Donna, the murder had nothing to do with her. To make the case, Ara Tite prosecutors wanted all three co conspirators to testify, but they had limited leverage, especially with Kevin and Sybil. Michigan has no death penalty and first degree murder carries a mandatory sentence life in prison without parole, so there were no deals to be made, no bargaining chips. Kevin and Sibyl were in too deep to be offered anything in exchange for their testimony. Patrick, however, was another story. He'd been the least involved of the three, mostly just the getaway driver.

46:11 He was only nineteen at the time of the murder. The DA offered him a deal plead guilty to second degree murder in exchange for a sentence of twenty two to forty years. It wasn't mercy, but it was a chance at someday rebuilding a life, so he took the deal and agreed to testify against the others. Kevin was the first to go on trial in October two thousand, he was convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to life in prison no possibility of parole, But then, unexpectedly, he agreed to testify at the trial of Donna Trapani and Sibyl Paget. The one thing the DA could offer was a letter of requesting he served his sentence in a federal prison closer to his home state of Maine.

46:52 Donna and Sibyl were tried together beginning in November two thousand. They had separate juries, but shared the courtroom. I've never heard of that before for me either. That's interesting. Yeah. One of the key witnesses was George Fulton. His testimony revealed a deeply uncomfortable truth. He had unintentionally helped Donna plan the murder. That map with Gail's home and workplace circled it had Donna in Sibyl's fingerprints on it, but also George's. He admitted that he had bought the map and marked it up. He'd once believed Donna would move to Michigan to have the baby that she claimed was his, and he wanted to help her get oriented. It was a gut punch. On cross examination, George also acknowledged that after Donna and Sybil's arrest that he sent both women cards in jail.

47:39 Oh my goodness, guy, I know he's really something. He said. It was because he believed that love is greater than hate, and he wanted to learn to forgive both himself and the people that killed his wife. He said, quote, otherwise I cannot heal and get on with my life. Then, of course, came Donna's turn on the stand. She couldn't resist. She'd loved being the center of attention, but testifying on her own behalf was also her only shot. Donna blame George for everything, her broken business, her ruined life. She claimed that she had been pregnant but had suffered a miscarriage. She portrayed herself as a victim, but her testimony quickly devolved into a circus. The facts were too strong, the confessions too detailed, the evidence overwhelming. Kevin and Patrick's testimony sealed it. Donna Trappani and Sivil Paget were both convicted of first degree murder. Life in prison, no parole, justice at last.

48:32 Dona Trapani and Sybil Paget are both serving their life sentences at the Women's here On Valley correctional facility just a few miles from us in Ipsilante. Do you want to go visit them? No, I really don't have anything that I would want to say to Donna or Sybil Patrick. Alexander is serving his sentence in Jackson, Michigan, also not far away. He became eligible for parole in November twenty twenty two, but so far he's been denied. If he serves his full sentence, he'll be released no later than twenty forty. As for Kevin Ulette, I wasn't able to track him down, but it's likely that he's serving out his life sentence in a federal prison in Maine, as requested. Although George Fulton was cleared of any direct involvement in Gail's murder, it's impossible to ignore the role that he played. He cheated on his wife, he ignored warning signs, he failed to recognize that the woman he was involved with was unstable despite flashing neon signs in every direction, and most of all, he was selfish, clueless, detached. Soon after Gail's murder, George told his children, quote, you don't know what suffering is.

49:34 I am the one who knows true suffering Okay, George, he's really like, he really drives me crazy. In this case, it's always about him, you know. To Emily and Andrew, it felt like their father hadn't just destroyed their family, he had also stolen their grief and made their pain about him. And yet with time George changed. Apparently. Emily later said quote, he did get help and is a better person Now. I know my dad's not perfect, but he a lot better than he was back then. My dad is actually quite nice to be around. Well, that is really good to hear. I know. I'm I'm glad to hear it too. He just he seems so selfish and like such a jerk. But he's the only parent they have left, so I'm glad that he at least seems to have turned things around.

50:17 Well. Emily sounds like she has a really good perspective too, like acknowledging that he's not perfect, but having an imperfect relationship is better with than no relationship. Yeah. George remarried in two thousand and four. At one point, he was reportedly writing a book about the ordeal, but it seems that that project never saw the light of day. Gail's mother, Dora, passed away in twenty twenty one at the age of eighty nine. As for Gail and George's children, I haven't been able to find. Much because it's really none of our business. It really isn't. Emily did earn a degree in finance from Oakland University. My alma mater, Golden Grizzly, that's. Right, and later she got an MBA from the University of Michigan, my other alma mater, Go Blue. Last I saw she was living in the Chicago area, working as a life coach and energy healer. She has a family of her own now, and she looks a lot like her mother. Andrew, I believe is living in San Diego.

51:07 And Melissa, the oldest, who we didn't talk about in Part two. We've talked about her in Part one. She's living in Texas. I don't know any more about your lives, your rights, none of our business, but I hope that they've found peace. Me too. Gail Fulton was forty eight years old when her life was taken. She was a mother, a librarian, a kind hearted woman who deserved so much more. Rest in peace, scale. Rest in peace. She sounded like a really sweet, loving wife and mother. Yeah, she really did. She definitely deserved more from her husband. Yes, speaking of her husband, we've talked about him a fair amount, But what do you think how much responsibility does he bear in his wife's death. That's a hard question to answer, because he had an affair he shouldn't have an affair. The affair obviously was very damaging to his wife and his children, and I think sometimes you don't know what a person is capable of when you become involved with them, and George definitely seemed a little oblivious.

52:02 He clearly had blinders on, yeah. To Donna's level of deception. So I don't think he was responsible for Gail's death. I think he was responsible for maybe I getting involved with another woman that he shouldn't have done. But you know, he definitely didn't want Gail dead, right, He had no part in planning it, I don't believe. So, No, he didn't have any part in planning it. He didn't pull the trigger, but he does. It does frustrate me so much that he just was blind to all these warning signs. Like you said, he had an affair that was wrong, but the fact that he just didn't realize that he was seeing a psycho. I mean, there should have been enough warning signs for him. So definitely not responsible.

52:43 Right, and he should have severed things. And the fact that he still had to work with her, and I guess he was sending her cards and things like that like that was. Yeah, he sent very mixed messages to her, And yeah, he should have when he finally made the decision to break things off, he should have made a clean break. It just said, this is it. But yeah, unfortunately, hindsight is twenty twenty. Donna was, for whatever reason, was so clearly obsessed with George. I think that's what ended up driving her to really go to any lengths to try to keep him. What do you think can cause someone to become that, like just obsessed with some another person, Like I've never I've been in love, but I've never been like you know, that obsessed with someone. You're obsessed with me?

53:24 But you yes, but I have you so well, I'm. Obsessed with you too, because you're the best. I think the fear of being alone is really scary for a lot of people, and she didn't want to be abandoned by George. I wonder if maybe she had some orderline personality disorder, because that is a big trigger for that. Yeah, disorder. I don't know, what do you think? Yeah, you're probably right. We did talk in part one that a lot of people speculated that she had bipolar disorder, which I'm not sure is that related to borderline personality. Two different things, but sometimes they do coincide. Yeah, I mean, she definitely had some mental issues going on. But yeah, I don't know what can cause someone to be that obsessed that they would kill for someone.

54:05 Yeah. I don't think it's that George was like the you know, the biggest fish in the sea, you know that she was so in love with him. I think it was more that she wanted to be with somebody, and I think we lie to ourselves and we convince ourselves that this is the person, is perfect, and you know, I need to be with them, and it's just that, you know, fear of rejection and abandonment. I think that ends up predicting their behaviors. Yeah. The part of the case when they were at the library and the library was closing and the workers were coming up, I was so hoping that Gail would be saved then, yeah, that the co workers would you know, someone would lag behind and help her with her car, and there wouldn't be an opportunity to share that. So, you know, the butterfly effect, like what could have happened just slightly differently that would have saved her life.

54:50 Yeah, I thought that same thing, and I think, you know, their plan that they put together, they got pretty lucky that it worked from their point of view, because I would think in most cases, if your flat, if your tire was flat, a coworker might see that, oh, they're having a problem with their car. Might it just so happened that they must have been a little bit ahead of her and just not seen. Yeah. When I used to work late at night, we would all just you know, go out together, or someone was always with you to make sure you saw the light in your car. But I guess in this case, she didn't know until she started driving on it. Right. Yeah, it's just it's it's so sad that you're right, like the butterfly effect, one thing differently could have had a different outcome, but just not the case. Before we close, I should mention that the main source that I used in this case was M. William Phelps book Kiss of the she Devil. As you know, I have a love hate relationship with them.

55:41 You do. Whenever you tell me what your sources and you're reading one of his books, I always get a little nervous. It like, oh, no, he's gonna hate it. He does great research, he gets a lot of information, and he writes quite a few books. He's prolific. He's very prolific. But I don't know something about his writing style. I just have a hard time with He kind of jumps around a lot and repeats things a lot. But it was it was a good a good book. I've been thinking a lot lately about how we've been doing this for a while and we've enjoyed it a lot, and we love having discussions with our listeners and sometimes people disagree with us, and that's okay, Yeah, it's absolutely fine and great. Actually, if you disagree with us and you want to have a conversation and you know, reach out to us by email or social media, because we're not experts. We're just mom and dad and we're telling these stories and.

56:36 Right, and we do our best to try to, you know, stick to the facts when we talk about the case. But then we have discussion outside of the facts that we speculate or offer our opinions and things like that, and you're right, it's absolutely fine for people to disagree with us. We are not former prosecutors, former police officers, lawyers or anything like that. We're just two people. And honestly, there are a lot of really good podcasts out there. The secutors, they do a good job, and other podcasts. I think, let's go to court their lawyers. And there's other people that are like police officers. I can't think of one off the top of my head. But we're just kind of like we're hanging out as friends having a discussion and yeah, and. Hopefully that comes through, and I think most people appreciate that.

57:17 But yeah, it is worth saying it once in a while that we are just offering our opinions. Here, yeah, and never feel like we are trying to state our opinion as fact. And it's totally okay to have a different opinion than we do. You talked a lot about Emily and how Emily had some sort of like powers and maybe she was psychic and she could read auras, right, what do you think about the metaphysical world? I guess do you think that's possible? I don't you had any experiences. Not really. I have mixed feelings about it. I used to believe that it was possible for people to have psychic powers, but I don't know. Over the years, I've kind of grown less and less inclined to believe that. But I don't know. I have an open mind. I suppose anything is possible, but I just not not convinced. What about you, I don't know.

58:03 There is definitely something to intuition, like especially mother's intuition. Yeah, because sometimes I can I really just get a sense or a feeling that something is wrong. That's not always right. I'm so grateful because a lot of times I'm wrong. But you know, sometimes there is something there, and you know it's hard to ignore it. Yeah. Well, I don't think we're men to ignore it. I think if you have that feeling, right, well, trust your gut, even if it's not related to either kids or whatever. Trust if you get an icky feeling about someone you know, trust your gut. Yeah, definitely that I totally agree with that. And I was going to say, in doing, like in researching all the cases we've done over the last you know, two and a half years or so, there have been a few cases where that happens where somebody has a bad feeling right there across the country and right at the time that their loved one was killed. They get this feeling and they just knew something was wrong. And there are I have read some very credible reports like that.

58:58 So it does seem like maybe if you're really closely connected with someone, there is a little bit of a psychic connection there too. So speaking of people speaking to us from beyond the grave, I thought I saw a news report that I thought was interesting. We've talked about AI a fair amount on this podcast, partly because I'm kind of fascinated by AI. It's really an interesting time, I think in our world with the way it can be very frightening. But this is very a true crime related AI story. So there was a guy, his name was Gabriel hork Asidis, who was convicted of manslaughter in a road rage incident. He had shot and killed this man, a thirty seven year old named Christopher Pelke, and the judge allowed Christopher's loved ones to play an AI generated video of Christopher giving his own victim impact statement. So Christopher, the man the victim in this case, his sister and brother in law, both worked with AI and they basically fed this AI the likeness and the voice of their of her brother, and they created victim impact statement of him addressing the courtroom, and the judge allowed it, which was kind of surprising to me. Yeah, but you want do you want to hear just like a few seconds of it?

1:00:09 Sure? Hello. Just to be clear for everyone seeing this, I am a version of Chris pelke recreated through AI that uses my picture and my voice profile. I was able to be digitally regenerated to share with you today. I would like to make my own impact statement to Gabriel hork Asidas, the man who shot me. It is a shame we encountered each other that day in those circumstances. In another life, we probably could have been friends. I believe in forgiveness and in God who forgives. I always have and I still do. That's pretty wild, Is it is crazy? I know, I don't know. How do you feel about that? I don't know. I mean, I know it's not really him, and I guess it's a little chilling. Yeah, I don't like it. No, I just I don't think it's a good idea. First of all, you're putting words in your loved one's mouth that they you don't know how he would have felt about that, you know.

1:00:59 And it's almost like the video that they made, he's almost being very forgiving of the person who killed him. A sentiment of what he said was a little odd. Yeah, And I don't think you have the right to assume that your loved one who was a victim would be forgiving. I mean, you don't know. So anyway, I think it's a little creepy and I'm actually very surprised the judge allowed it. Maybe the judge didn't know the content of the message. I'm not sure, but there was. It's interesting too, because the defense attorney for the person said that the AI presentation actually creates an issue for appeal because the judge allowed this, and it could be considered inflammatory to hear like from the victim in their own voice and their own likeness, and so it could be a Crowns for appeal of the sentence. Interestingly, though, even though the victim appeared to be asking for leniency for his killer, the judge sentenced the killer to the maximum sentence, which was ten and a half years in prison.

1:01:54 Interesting. I mean, it'll be yeah, I think AI. We could talk about it for a long time, but it's just interesting to see where this goes and how the criminal justice system uses AI. We did an episode on it like two years ago, which I did a little research on it, but yeah, it's a brave new world. Two years AI is really kind of Yeah. For sure, you're seeing like videos now that look completely real that aren't real at. All, not like we're celebrities or anything, but our voice is out there and it does kind of make me think that, you know, you could piece together Oh yeah, and AI could definitely represent us and our voices and our opinions totally. Well.

1:02:34 We actually played around with that on an episode a while ago. I think it was maybe it was one of our patron episodes. Yeah, but yeah we could. We can actually reproduce our own voices. I forgot we did that. Yeah, it was. It was kind of funny and people were like, are you guys okay? I actually made of a thing I was going to play at one point of your voice saying, you know what, rich you're right, You're always right. I'm not afraid to admit you're right when you're actually right. But it's you know, if you far between but listener recently said, I don't know where it was if it was on Spotify, But like Tina, you really do compliment rich a lot. I think someone else said that I stroked your ego. Yeah, and genuinely, we try so hard to be our authentic selves when we record, and I really do admire you. I think you're great and I think you're really smart. And it's not like you need encouragement.

1:03:29 I just think you're doing a great job. You work really hard, not that I don't, but you're wearing a lot of hats. But I read that. I read that comment as the listener thinking that I needed right, that's what I like insecure or something like that. But yeah, I think we try to be ourselves and I think you're great too, and we both compliment each other absolutely. But I think maybe I'm more forthcoming sometimes and you maybe give me more encouragement, like off the air or when I'm trying to say a sentence forty seven times, and you never I'm not kidding listeners. He never gets even a little irritated with me. Is like, it's okay, just keep going, You're going to get it, and you know, yeah, I try. You usually do Thank you all so much for listening.

1:04:11 Please rate, review, follow and subscribe. Find us on social media and YouTube, or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. And please consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash Lovemrykill one tier five dollars a month for early ad free access and a monthly bonus. Episode until next time. Don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife.

1:05:00 You know what, rich You're right. You're always right. I don't know why I ever doubt you