June 2, 2025

Gail and George Fulton - Part 2

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In October 1999, 48-year-old librarian Gail Fulton was shot and killed outside the Lake Orion, Michigan library where she worked. What initially appeared to be a cold-blooded, random attack soon revealed itself as something far more personal—and far more calculated.

At the center of the case: a crumbling marriage, a secret affair, and a woman named Donna Trapani who refused to be cast aside. The investigation uncovered a disturbing murder-for-hire plot involving a fake pregnancy, a forged suicide note, and three willing accomplices, all wrapped up in obsession, manipulation, and delusion.

The story spans two years of emotional unraveling, culminating in a fatal encounter that shattered a family. This case raises complex questions about accountability, denial, and the consequences of ignoring red flags.

Today's snack: Michigan Awesome Dark Chocolate Cherries and Cinnamon Roasted Almonds (thanks Sarah!)

Miles 4 Miracles donation website

Support us on Patreon

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Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina.

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And if there's one thing we've learned, and over twenty

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years of marriage.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your husband, and.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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Welcome to love, Mary.

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Kill Hey Tina, Hey Rich.

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How are you?

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I'm good? How are you?

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I'm doing good?

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Normally we record part one and part two very close together,

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but this time, pretty much a whole week has gone by.

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I know, and you had your first week at your

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new job. How was it?

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It was really good. I mean it was a short week,

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it was only four days, but everyone is super nice

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and everyone everyone. I have not met anyone who wasn't

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nice so far. You sure, well, I haven't met everyone yet.

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So you want audition anyone in the office. Now is

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the time that few people this podcast.

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Now is not the time, and I would I don't

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have anything to dish about anyway. But no, it was

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very good first week. I really love the company's product.

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I think the people are great.

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So you've been in good spirits. That's good to see you.

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Yeah.

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So in the mornings, you are always up at least

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an hour before I am. You get up and you

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take a shower, because you have an actual job to

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get to where you know, I stay up later working

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and we just have kind of different schedules, and usually

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I don't see you for a couple of hours when

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you're up, and oftentimes we find that we are wearing

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not the same outfit, but very similar outfits. It happens

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a lot, where just the other day it wasn't it

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was just random. It was like we were both wearing

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blue sweatshirts with hoods on them, which I wear a

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lot of hoodies, so that's not a surprise. But or

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it'll be like khaki shorts and a black T shirt

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or whatever, like we're wearing similar colors. It happens a lot.

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So today after my shower, I knew we were recording

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of like, okay, what would Rich be wearing today? And

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I was like looking, and I was trying to like,

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you don't match my brain with yours, and we are matching.

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Yeah, you nailed it, black putty, but I wear black.

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Like it's been really chilly and rainy and cloudy here

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in Michigan this week. It's so weird that it's going

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to be a Memorial weekend. I know. I think it's

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like fifty five out, it's really chilly, kind of a bummer,

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But yeah, we're both wearing black hoodie.

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It seems to happen.

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And we're both wearing leggings.

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I am not wearing leggings. I am wearing my usual

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blue jeans. But yeah, it seems to happen a lot

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when we record. For some reason, on recording day, we

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seem to wear the same thing a lot.

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Well, it's not just recording days, but sometimes it's easy

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to predict what you're going to wear because you wear

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the same things a lot. But also, like on game day,

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you're going to wear you know, your Michigan's game stuff, and.

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It's harder to predict. During baseball season, there's a game

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like almost every.

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Day, right right, and you actually don't wear much Tigers stuff.

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Now it's because it's every day. You can't. I can't

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wear a Tigers thing every day. But if it's a

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big game, yeah, playoff, playoff time, I'll be wearing a

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lot of Tigers gear.

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Well, sometimes on recording days you'll wear a love Mary

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He'll sweatshirt.

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True, that's true. Well, before we get to part two

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of the Gail and George Fulton case, I have another

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super special snack today from one of our listeners. Fellow

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Michigander Sarah sent us this snack and it's from a

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company called Michigan Awesome, which I had never heard of.

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You don't know that company?

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Yeah, I don't know it either, but a really cute box.

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It's the really cute box. And I think you're gonna

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like what's inside of it.

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I think I know what's inside of it, do you?

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Yeah?

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I might have peaked.

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Oh okay, well I think you're gonna like it.

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An yeah.

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But before we have the snack, I wanted to give

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a quick shout out to a fundraiser that Sarah and

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her husband help organize. It's called Miles for Miracles. It's

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a cancer fundraiser put on by the Mount Pleasant Middle

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School staff and students. Sarah and her husband are both

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teachers there. One hundred percent of the money goes to

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local cancer services. They're actually today holding a school wide

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celebration of life, but they're always accepting donations, so we'll

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include a link to the charity website in our show notes.

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I think they've raised a ton of money over the

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years too. Yeah, Sarah and her husband, and we love

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Mary Kill will be making a donation too.

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Yeah, it's a great cause. So what Sarah sent us

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from Michigan Awesome are two things, dark chocolate cherries and

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cinnamon roasted almonds, which both amazing, really good. Let's try.

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What did you think about those Michigan Awesome snacks?

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What's not to like about Michigan Awesome snacks?

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They were both really good.

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Yeah, very good.

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The almonds reminded me of like when you go to

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the ballpark and you smell them roasting the cinnamon roasted almonds.

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So good, very good. I love cherries in any form,

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but the dark chocolate cherries are a big favorite. Yeah.

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And a lot of Michigan towns, like our tourists destinations.

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We have Cherry Republic. If you've ever been to a

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cherry Republic, they have tons of samples, so it's always

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fun to go in there and try the different things

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that they have.

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Yeah, for sure. Well, thanks again Sarah for sending those.

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That was so nice of you. We really appreciate it. Well,

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if you haven't already listened to part one of this case,

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you should go back and do that now. But do

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you want to give us a quick synopsis before we

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dive into part two.

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Well, you were nice enough to write it out Otherwise,

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I don't think I could give you a lot of

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fine detail. I do remember some crazy things about part one.

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Gail Fulton was a devoted wife and mother living in

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Lake Orion, Michigan. Her husband, George, had once dreamed of

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success and stability, but instead found himself entangled in an

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affair with Donna Trapani, his volatile and manipulative boss in Florida.

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What began as a secret romance spiraled into a tangled

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web of lies, emotional blackmail, and broken promises. Donna claimed

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she was pregnant and dying of cancer, and George, torn

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between guilt, obligation and desire, tried to have it both ways. Gail,

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devastated and spiraling into depression, struggled to hold her family

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together while her children tried to care for her. Then

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came the July fourth peace summit at a motel, where Donna, Gail,

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and George attempted the unthinkable to work things out over

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line at Olive Garden. It did not go well. Now,

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with George claiming he was done with Donna and promising

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to recommit to his family and marriage, the question was

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was it really over, and what would Donna do next

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to try to manipulate George into staying. I googled a

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picture of George and Gail, and they looked like a

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really nice couple. Georgees do look like a filandering piece

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of garbage.

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It's hard to tell by looking at a picture of

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somebody who is a philandering piece of garbage.

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But I know he was.

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But in the picture they look very respectable.

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They looked like a very nice, loving couple. Yeah, remind

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me where we left off at the very end of

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part one.

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So after the July fourth debacle where they all met

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had lunch at Olive Garden, George took Gail home, but

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then he said, oh, I have to go back to

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the motel to stay with Donna because she is not well.

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And so he went back and he actually spent the

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night with Donna. But then he came back the next

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day and told Gail it's over really with Donna, Like

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I'm done with her this time. I mean it.

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I think if you chose to spend one more night,

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I would have been like, Nope, well yeah, done with you.

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Right, Yeah, for sure. After the chaos of July fourth,

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Gail did something extraordinary. She forgave him. She wanted to

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move forward desperately, but George he wasn't exactly falling over

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himself to make amends. He refused to apologize. When Gail

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told him what Donna had said to her in private,

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he didn't believe her.

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What did Donna say?

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I think she said something to the effect of, you've

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had him for twenty five years, it's my turn now, bitch.

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That's really nice. Emily, their daughter, who had just graduated

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high school, was furious. She urged her mother to kick

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him out and to move on. She supported Gail, but

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deep down, she also pitied her. She couldn't understand why

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her mother was letting this man walk all over her.

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But George insisted this time he was serious. He was

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done with Donna. He began making real efforts. He went

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back to church with Gail. He agreed to counseling with

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their parish priest. They even started talking about vacations together,

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and for the first time in a long time, Gail

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seemed happy. But Donna was not going to go quietly.

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She continued calling the house, pretending the calls were work related.

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If Gail or Emily answered, she would launch into cruel tirades.

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She emailed George, constantly flipping between seductive messages and vicious

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guilt trips. She warned him that the stress that he

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had caused was putting her pregnancy at risk, and that

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if she miscarried, it would be his fault. Her emails

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trashed Gail, calling her cold, hateful, evil. Donna painted herself

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as the victim, alone, dying carrying his child. She begged

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George to return to Florida, just for a little while,

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just to be there for her in her final days.

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Donna even called Gail's mother, Dora. She told her with

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eerie confidence that George was coming back to Florida, leaving

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Gail for good, and that Dora should go to Michigan

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to support her daughter through the inevitable. And Yet, even

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through Donna's campaign of harassment, George still didn't cut her

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off completely. He continued helping her with business matters, even

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sent her flowers before an upcoming financial audit. In one note,

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he wrote, I still love.

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You, George.

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He's still he wanted to have it both ways. In

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late September, George told Donna that he was coming to

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Florida one final time to collect the rest of his things,

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but this time he planned to bring Gail with him.

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That for Donna was the final betrayal. She left George

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a voicemail, and I'm going to ask you to read

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this voicemail. This is asking a lot. I know you

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are a really good actress and you're going to do

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a great job here. But I think it's a long voicemail.

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But I think it's important to get into the mind

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of Donna Trapani.

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So I'm not sure if you're giving me a backhanded

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compliment or not, like you think that I can play

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a sociopathic liar, or.

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I think you are an excellent actor. That was my

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compliment to you, is that I think you have a

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wide range that you can do.

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All right, Let's see what I can do here, all right.

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So the voicemail just started here because when she started,

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her voice was very calm. She told George that bringing

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Gail to Florida would be quote one of the lowest

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class things you could do. And then she continued on

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from there and here's well, or I'll have you take over.

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Well or I dive in full disclosure. I am already

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wrinkled about something else.

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Personal.

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So why would you flaunt something like that in front

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of me, knowing how much I am already hurting, know

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how much pain and anguish I am going through. How

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could you do something so cruel? You know, I know

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that she's cold and she's cruel, but Gail is turning

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you into being someone just like her, one cold and cruel,

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heartless person. I cannot believe you would have the audacity

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to want to bring her down here and flaunt her

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in front of me and make my pain worse. Don't

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you know how difficult it was going to be to

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see you anyway and not be able to spend any

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time with you. But I was willing to do that,

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and I was willing to give it a try and

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see if I could stay away from you. But then

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for you to bring her down here, that's just slow class,

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it's evil, it's cruel. It's very low and bastardly of

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00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:05.360
you to do that, and I hope that God punishes

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00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:07.639
you for what you're doing. It's bad enough I had

241
00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:09.840
to listen to you talk mean and hateful to me

242
00:11:09.879 --> 00:11:12.440
this morning, make up a bunch of damn lies and

243
00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:15.080
everything else, and all that cruelty, and you want to

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bring her down here and you want me to be

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00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:20.120
in my bedroom and know that your ass is out

246
00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:23.039
there with this damn bitch making love to her, being

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00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:25.799
in the hot tub with her, swimming with her, eating

248
00:11:25.799 --> 00:11:29.200
with her, in my own city, my own town, and

249
00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:32.480
I'm here by myself and all alone. That is so

250
00:11:32.759 --> 00:11:35.559
damn evil and low class of you. You are not

251
00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:37.519
the man I thought you were, and I don't know

252
00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:40.559
how you can be so cruel. This is just like

253
00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:42.919
taking a gun and sticking it in my brain and

254
00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:46.559
my stomach and blowing my brains out. I was willing

255
00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:49.080
for you to come down and you to do your job,

256
00:11:49.080 --> 00:11:50.639
and I was trying to stay apart. I was willing

257
00:11:50.679 --> 00:11:52.759
to try. I was not going to touch you. I

258
00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:54.440
was not going to kiss you or hold you. I

259
00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:56.919
was not going to do nothing to you because you've

260
00:11:56.919 --> 00:11:59.559
done just told me, didn't love me. And if you

261
00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:01.639
didn't want I mean the night didn't want you. But

262
00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:03.679
you won't even give it a try. You won't go

263
00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:06.000
ahead and bring that damn bitch down here. Well, that

264
00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:08.799
bitch is not wanted in the city. She could stay.

265
00:12:08.840 --> 00:12:12.480
Her ass are in Michigan where she belongs, because she

266
00:12:12.679 --> 00:12:14.159
damn sure don't belong here.

267
00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:15.039
In my city.

268
00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:19.080
That is her city there and this one is mine

269
00:12:19.159 --> 00:12:21.279
down here, and that's the way it needs to stay.

270
00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:23.720
I don't think Donna was laughing when she said all this.

271
00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:29.039
I'm sorry I broke there at the end, bad grammar

272
00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:29.840
is really hard for me.

273
00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:31.840
That was hard. You did a really really good job

274
00:12:32.120 --> 00:12:34.120
up until the time that you broke a cold read.

275
00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:36.720
Yes it was very good. But yeah, that was the

276
00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:39.080
message that Donna left for George.

277
00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:42.480
Yikes. Sybil Paget was thirty four years old, a single

278
00:12:42.519 --> 00:12:45.120
mom with two kids, a drug habit, and not much

279
00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:47.759
direction in her life. She had known Donna for years

280
00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:51.360
and worked for her at HHCs. Donna liked having Sybil

281
00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:55.559
around because Sybil was loyal. She didn't ask questions, She

282
00:12:55.679 --> 00:12:58.679
did what she was told, and for that, Donna paid

283
00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:02.720
her well In return. Sibyl was indebted to her, But

284
00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:07.519
Sybil wasn't exactly reliable. One day, a supervisor at HHCs

285
00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:10.480
made some routine calls to check in on patients Sybil

286
00:13:10.679 --> 00:13:13.799
was supposed to be visiting one after another. The reports

287
00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:17.279
came in. Sybil had never shown up, not once, and

288
00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:20.639
yet she had submitted paperwork and notes claiming that she

289
00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:23.679
had the supervisor fired her on the spot.

290
00:13:23.799 --> 00:13:25.840
Can believed that, like she was, this is a home

291
00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:30.320
healthcare business where they're taking care of elderly people, very

292
00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:34.120
sick people, very ill people, and Sybil just didn't show up.

293
00:13:34.360 --> 00:13:35.960
That's horrible, really horrible.

294
00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:39.080
But Donna overruled the firing and she said, no, we

295
00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:41.960
have to give her another chance. That was Sibyl's value

296
00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:46.200
to Donna, loyalty, not competence. So when Donna decided that

297
00:13:46.279 --> 00:13:49.919
Gail Fulton, the woman standing between her and George, needed

298
00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:53.120
to be removed, she turned to Sibyl. Sibil, in turn,

299
00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:56.960
had a nineteen year old boyfriend named Patrick Alexander. Patrick

300
00:13:57.039 --> 00:14:00.159
had no job, no direction, and no real future. He

301
00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:04.480
was fifteen years younger than Sibyl and mostly interested in sex.

302
00:14:04.679 --> 00:14:07.120
He also had a record hair and possession and a

303
00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:11.600
prior conviction for assaulting a woman. At some point, Sibil's mother, Helen,

304
00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:15.519
overheard the couple talking about a job that Donna wanted done.

305
00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:18.799
It sounded dangerous, but they said it would be easy money.

306
00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:21.879
Helen didn't know the details, but she begged Sibyl to

307
00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:24.240
stay out of it. At the end of September, Sybil

308
00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:26.320
told her mom that she and Patrick were going out

309
00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:28.720
of town for a few days. Helen needed to watch

310
00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:32.039
the kids. Then Sibil and Patrick hit the road, driving

311
00:14:32.120 --> 00:14:35.399
north to Michigan. They weren't flying blind. Donna had given

312
00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:38.279
them a road map of Metro Detroit. On it were

313
00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:42.039
drawn circles, one around Gail Fulton's house, another around the

314
00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:45.759
Orion Township Library where she worked. At first, Donna wanted

315
00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:48.519
them to kidnap Gail and bring her back to Florida.

316
00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:52.000
That way Donna could deal with her personally, but she

317
00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:56.200
eventually decided that was too risky. Plan B kill Gail,

318
00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:59.159
but make it look more like a suicide. After all,

319
00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:02.759
Gail had talked about suicide before. Donna even drafted a

320
00:15:02.799 --> 00:15:06.279
fake suicide note to leave with the body. But ultimately

321
00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:09.600
Donna landed on a third option, the simplest in her mind,

322
00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:12.200
Kill Gail and make it look like a random act

323
00:15:12.279 --> 00:15:16.159
of violence, a robbery gone wrong, a drive by, anything

324
00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:19.279
that wouldn't lead back to her. We are both familiar

325
00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:21.399
with late Gorean and that's really not a place where

326
00:15:21.480 --> 00:15:22.399
drive by has happened.

327
00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:24.440
No, not at all, very safe community.

328
00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:28.240
Once in Michigan, Sybil and Patrick began tracking Gaile's movements.

329
00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:31.960
They followed her, took notes, learned her routine, but seeing

330
00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:35.159
her in real life changed everything. They saw Gail's kids

331
00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:37.559
coming and going from the house. They saw her as

332
00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:40.600
a person, not a target, and they couldn't go through

333
00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:43.639
with it. They drove back to Florida. When they returned,

334
00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:47.240
the job not done, Donna was livid. She stormed around

335
00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:50.000
the house, slamming dishes into the sink. I sent y'all

336
00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:52.799
to do one simple job for me, she fumed. And

337
00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:55.039
y'all couldn't even do that. I don't know where that

338
00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:56.000
accent just came from.

339
00:15:56.120 --> 00:15:57.080
I know it was brilliant.

340
00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:00.000
After Sibyl and Patrick failed to follow through, Donna needed

341
00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:03.879
someone else, someone who wouldn't hesitate, someone prone to violence

342
00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:08.000
and lacking a conscience. And that's when Kevin Oohlett entered

343
00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:10.639
the picture. Kevin was a six foot two hundred and

344
00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:14.080
thirty five pound brawler who had no problem using his

345
00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:18.279
fists for money. His girlfriend, Stephanie, happened to be Sybil's roommate.

346
00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:21.720
Kevin had been living in Akron, Ohio, but decided to

347
00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:24.919
return to Florida to be with Stephanie. Just two hours

348
00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:28.120
from home, his car broke down Stephanie drove out and

349
00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:30.759
picked him up. Kevin had a job lined up in Florida,

350
00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:33.039
but with no car and no money, there was no

351
00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:35.279
way to make it work. That's when Sybil said the

352
00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:37.759
magic words quote, I know a way to make some

353
00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:40.519
easy money. She told Kevin that a friend of hers

354
00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:44.000
needed someone beaten up. Kevin didn't flinch. He'd done that

355
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:45.960
kind of work before and was happy to do it

356
00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:49.320
again for the right price. So Sybil, Patrick, Kevin, and

357
00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:53.080
Stephanie all drove to Donna's house. Stephanie stayed in the

358
00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:56.399
living room. Kevin didn't want her involved in whatever this was.

359
00:16:56.759 --> 00:16:59.840
Inside the bedroom, Donna laid it out. She explained that

360
00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:02.600
you've been dating a man who left her for another woman.

361
00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:06.920
She wanted quote this bitch taken care of. But as

362
00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:09.960
she talked, Kevin realized this wasn't about a beating. Donna

363
00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:13.319
wanted the woman dead. Kevin didn't blink, especially when Donna

364
00:17:13.319 --> 00:17:15.640
said she'd pay him five thousand dollars for the job.

365
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:19.839
He agreed, but on one condition. Sybil and Patrick had

366
00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:22.319
to go with him. They knew the area, they knew

367
00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:25.640
Gail's habits. They would be his guides. Sybil said, The

368
00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.960
only predictable time in Gail's week was Monday nights. Gail

369
00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:32.240
worked at the Orion Township Public Library on Joslyn Road

370
00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:35.920
every Monday and clocked out at nine pm sharp. Donna,

371
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:39.920
ever obsessed with covering her tracks, suggested something chilling. She

372
00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:42.599
wanted everyone who walked out of the library that night

373
00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:44.720
to be shot. That way, it would look like a

374
00:17:44.839 --> 00:17:47.119
random attack, not a targeted hit.

375
00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:48.039
Isn't that horrible?

376
00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:48.440
Wow?

377
00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:51.799
I know, I can't even I can't imagine paying someone

378
00:17:51.799 --> 00:17:53.839
to kill someone else anyway. But then to say, oh,

379
00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:56.039
just kill all the other people there, you know, five

380
00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:59.359
people whatever, that's just that's so, that is horrible, I

381
00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:00.079
do imagine.

382
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:03.480
But even Kevin had a line. He flaty refused. I'll

383
00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:06.240
do the job, he said, but I'm not shooting innocent people.

384
00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:07.559
I don't care how much you pay me.

385
00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:11.279
In his mind, Gail wasn't innocent because the story that

386
00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:13.759
Donna told him was that Gail stole her man away

387
00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:14.160
from her.

388
00:18:14.359 --> 00:18:17.039
Okay, but still, it's really not a reason to kill someone.

389
00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:17.799
No, of course not.

390
00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:21.240
Donna backed off, Fine, she said, just Gail, and that

391
00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:24.400
was that. The plan was said. Donna gave Kevin half

392
00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:26.119
of the money up front, he used it to make

393
00:18:26.119 --> 00:18:29.039
a down payment on something he'd always wanted, a nineteen

394
00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:31.720
seventy four Transam, a muscle car.

395
00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:34.559
So Kevin was basically willing to kill someone just so

396
00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:37.000
that he could buy an old you scold car.

397
00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:37.720
Yeah.

398
00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:41.440
On Sunday, October third, the trio Kevin, Sibil, and Patrick

399
00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:44.400
set off from Michigan in a rental car provided by Donna.

400
00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:46.799
The gun had been supplied by a friend of Sibyl's.

401
00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:50.680
One problem, the car's taillight was busted. Patrick had backed

402
00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:53.039
into a tree the night before at a party. They

403
00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:55.240
patched it up with tape the best they could and

404
00:18:55.319 --> 00:18:58.319
hit the road. They stopped in Akron, Ohio, where Kevin

405
00:18:58.359 --> 00:19:00.599
said he could score some weed. He called up an

406
00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:03.160
old friend and the group partied in their hotel room.

407
00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:06.519
They bought some marijuana and some bullets. The friend didn't

408
00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:09.359
ask what they were really up to. The next morning, Monday,

409
00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:11.960
October fourth, they got back in the car and drove

410
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:15.000
the final three and a half hours to Lake Orion, Michigan.

411
00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:18.359
The plan was in motion. It's kind of odd to

412
00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:21.240
me that Sibil and Patrick weren't willing to kill Gail,

413
00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:23.920
but they were willing to go along for the ride, right.

414
00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:26.759
And it's not clear to me whether Donna paid them

415
00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:29.200
any money or whether they just kind of went along

416
00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:31.319
for I don't know, a road trip or something.

417
00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:33.960
I've got the impression that they saw Gail and they

418
00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:36.240
were like, Oh, she seems like a nice lady. We

419
00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:37.759
don't want to kill her. Yeah.

420
00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:40.480
I think they had qualms about doing it themselves, but

421
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:43.240
they didn't have a qualm about somebody else doing it

422
00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:47.440
and being there. So these people are all just horrible people.

423
00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:49.640
We'll be back after a break.

424
00:19:57.799 --> 00:20:00.960
During our break, I just want to report that I assaulted.

425
00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:02.920
I deserved it.

426
00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:06.279
I tried to take a couple of dark chocolate covered

427
00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:08.960
cherries out of the bag that our listener, Sarah so

428
00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:12.440
kindly sent us, and you Sarah not having.

429
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:16.000
Me to have the cherries, she specifically told me Tina,

430
00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:20.119
the cherries are per use. Rich has treats all the time.

431
00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:23.200
I do know that those are your favorites, so I

432
00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:25.880
appreciate you letting me have a couple more. It was

433
00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:29.839
just after eight pm on Monday, October fourth, nineteen ninety nine,

434
00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:33.079
when Kevin, Sibil, and Patrick pulled into the parking lot

435
00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:36.279
of the Orion Township Public Library. There were still quite

436
00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:39.440
a few cars in the lot. Sybil spotted Gail's maroon

437
00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:42.240
Plymouth Grand Voyager. They got out to check if it

438
00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:45.559
was unlocked. The plan, Plan A was for Kevin to

439
00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.319
crouch in the back seat and ambush her. As soon

440
00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:50.680
as she started to drive away, he would shoot her

441
00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:53.000
in the back of the head. But the van was locked.

442
00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:56.119
Good Jet Gail, so they went to Plan B. Kevin

443
00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:58.559
and Sybil slashed one of the tires on her car.

444
00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:01.920
The idea was simple. Once the library closed and everyone

445
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:05.519
else drove off, Gail would be stuck alone. Patrick walked

446
00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:08.440
into the library to scope things out. When he returned,

447
00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:11.640
he reported that Gail was inside working, along with four

448
00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:14.480
or five others. With time to spare, the three drove

449
00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:16.839
around for about half an hour, then returned to the

450
00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:19.599
lot at eight thirty. They parked near the back where

451
00:21:19.599 --> 00:21:21.839
they had a clear line of sight to the employee

452
00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:25.279
entrance and to Gaile's vehicle. Kevin stepped out and covered

453
00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:27.319
their license plate with a T shirt, just in.

454
00:21:27.319 --> 00:21:29.119
Case remind us of the year.

455
00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:32.559
It was nineteen ninety nine. After Kevin covered up the

456
00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:34.759
license plate, he got back in the car, and then

457
00:21:34.839 --> 00:21:39.079
the three waited inside library supervisor Barb, Buttkiss and her

458
00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:43.039
colleagues were shutting down for the night. Barb and another employee, Kathy,

459
00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:45.319
planned to stay a few extra minutes to run a

460
00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:48.319
computer back up. The rest of the employees, including Gail,

461
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:50.839
said their goodbyes and headed for the door. Out in

462
00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:53.359
the lot in their rental car, Sybil slipped on a

463
00:21:53.359 --> 00:21:56.799
baseball cap, Kevin pulled down a black ski mask. He

464
00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:59.000
sat in the back of the car, gun in hand.

465
00:21:59.240 --> 00:22:02.319
Patrick was in the driver's seat while Sybil rode shotgun.

466
00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:05.880
Their plan worked perfectly. Gaile and the other library aids

467
00:22:05.960 --> 00:22:08.960
exited the building and got into their cars. One by one,

468
00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:11.920
they drove off into the night. Gaile followed until she

469
00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:14.839
noticed that something was wrong just a few yards from

470
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:17.680
her parking spot. She stopped the van. She got out,

471
00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:20.400
walked around the passenger side, and saw the flat tire.

472
00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:24.160
By then, her co workers were already gone. As Gaile

473
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:27.160
leaned down to inspect the damage, Patrick pulled out of

474
00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:30.160
their space and drove toward the van. Kevin jumped out

475
00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:33.640
of the back seat. He moved quickly, gun raised. Gaile

476
00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:37.000
turned her eyes met his A man in a ski mask,

477
00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:40.519
walking straight toward her. She didn't even have time to scream.

478
00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:44.440
Kevin fired one shot to her head. Gaile collapsed instantly.

479
00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:47.400
He fired four more rounds into her body as she

480
00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:50.599
lay on the cold pavement. Then he turned and sprinted

481
00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:54.000
back to the car, yelling go, go go. Patrick hit

482
00:22:54.039 --> 00:22:57.000
the gas. It had taken seconds, and just like that,

483
00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:01.480
Gaile Fulton lay dying on the ground. Around nine ten pm,

484
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:05.680
library supervisor Barb Buckkiss and her coworker Kathy finished the

485
00:23:05.720 --> 00:23:09.240
computer backup and walked toward the employee exit. As they

486
00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:11.599
stepped into the cool night air, they entered the code

487
00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:14.559
to lock the door behind them. That's when Barb noticed

488
00:23:14.599 --> 00:23:17.079
something in the distance. At first, it looked like a

489
00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:20.480
pile of clothes, maybe someone dropped a coat or a bag.

490
00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:24.079
But as she walked closer, her stomach dropped. It was Gail.

491
00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:27.119
She was lying on the ground, motionless near her van.

492
00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:30.119
For a moment, Barb thought she might have fainted, but

493
00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:33.519
then she saw it, the blood near Gail's head. Even then,

494
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:36.480
the idea that Gail had been shot didn't occur to them.

495
00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:39.200
Barb and Kathy could only assume that she had fallen

496
00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:42.359
and hit her head. Kathy ran back inside and called

497
00:23:42.440 --> 00:23:46.440
nine one one. Barb knelt down beside Gail. She was breathing,

498
00:23:46.559 --> 00:23:49.960
but barely. An officer from the Oakland County Sheriff's Department

499
00:23:50.039 --> 00:23:53.160
arrived just a few minutes later at nine fifteen pm.

500
00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:56.200
He approached Barb and gently asked her to remove the

501
00:23:56.240 --> 00:24:00.359
cloth that she was using to apply pressure to Gail's head. Look,

502
00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:04.000
and he knew it was a gunshot wound. Paramedics arrived

503
00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:06.519
soon after. They tried to save her, but it was

504
00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:09.400
too late. Gail Fulton died that night in the parking

505
00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:11.960
lot of the library she loved, at just forty eight

506
00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:15.839
years old. Poor Gail, that's so horrible, I know, it

507
00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:16.799
really is so sad.

508
00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:19.599
And her poor friends who were trying to save her life,

509
00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:23.240
kneeling down and applying pressure to the woad down her head.

510
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:25.720
It's just so heartbreaking. I don't think you would ever

511
00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:29.839
recover from, you know, seeing that and seeing your friend,

512
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:32.279
who I'm sure they adored, dying in front of you

513
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:33.400
is really tragic.

514
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:36.440
Yeah, it really is. Police quickly cordoned off the scene

515
00:24:36.519 --> 00:24:39.240
and issued an alert, knowing that the shooters couldn't have

516
00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:43.119
gone far. Bob mentioned that the library had security cameras

517
00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:46.000
facing the parking lot. A maintenance worker was called in

518
00:24:46.039 --> 00:24:49.839
to help retrieve the footage. Time was critical, so investigators

519
00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:53.240
reviewed the footage right there on site. Woh, the images

520
00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:56.599
were grainy, but they captured the attack. Three people appeared

521
00:24:56.640 --> 00:24:59.519
to be in the vehicle, and one crucial detail stood out.

522
00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:02.480
The cow had a broken tail light. It wasn't much,

523
00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:05.759
but it was something. Meanwhile, Barb placed a call to

524
00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:08.720
Gaile's home At that very moment. George was on the

525
00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:12.039
phone with Donna, still speaking on his business line, but

526
00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:14.559
it was Andrew who answered the home phone. He got

527
00:25:14.559 --> 00:25:17.839
his father and handed him the phone. Barb's voice was shaky.

528
00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:21.039
Something had happened to Gail. George and Andrew rushed to

529
00:25:21.079 --> 00:25:23.279
the library, arriving around nine point thirty.

530
00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:24.319
How old is Andrew?

531
00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:26.079
He was like sixteen.

532
00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:28.880
I think that so horrible for him to see that.

533
00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:32.079
When George and Andrew arrived at the library, they weren't

534
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:34.960
allowed to see the scene. Police escorted them to the

535
00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:38.480
police station instead. That's where they told George Gail had

536
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:43.119
been killed. His response was odd, no tears, no questions,

537
00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:46.000
no visible grief. He didn't ask who had done it

538
00:25:46.119 --> 00:25:48.119
or why the officers noticed.

539
00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:52.319
But remember we're not supposed to judge people on their reaction.

540
00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:55.279
Yeah, we really can't, especially in George's case, because I

541
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:59.000
think George was just a difficult person. He was just

542
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:02.480
his manner was always a little bit stiff and odd,

543
00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:05.039
and I think that was just how he reacted as

544
00:26:05.079 --> 00:26:09.400
they questioned him. George's tone was kurt dismissive. He gave short,

545
00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:13.200
clipped answers. He seemed irritated more than shocked. It wasn't

546
00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:15.119
the reaction of a man who had just lost his

547
00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:18.279
wife in a brutal shooting, and the police took note.

548
00:26:18.519 --> 00:26:21.359
After the shooting, Patrick Sibil and Kevin sped out of

549
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:24.039
the library parking lot just a few blocks away. They

550
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:26.920
pulled over briefly so Kevin could remove the t shirt

551
00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:29.759
covering the license plate. Then they were back on the road,

552
00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:33.519
heading south fast. They didn't stop until they crossed the

553
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:36.720
Ohio border. At a truck stop, Kevin went inside to

554
00:26:36.759 --> 00:26:39.319
buy a bottle of liquor. He needed something to calm

555
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:42.440
his nerves. They kept driving through the night, eventually stopping

556
00:26:42.440 --> 00:26:44.960
at a motel in Kentucky to get a few hours

557
00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:48.000
of sleep. The next day, while crossing a bridge in Tennessee,

558
00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:50.759
Kevin decided it was time to ditch the weapon. He

559
00:26:50.920 --> 00:26:53.319
rolled down the window and tossed the gun toward the

560
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:56.119
water below, so they didn't even stop the vehicle. He

561
00:26:56.240 --> 00:26:58.960
just tossed it out the window, but instead of splashing

562
00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:01.960
into the river, it the guard rail and bounced right

563
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:05.599
back onto the roadway behind them. They didn't turn around

564
00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:08.839
to retrieve it. There was too much traffic. They kept going.

565
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:12.160
I never heard whether anyone actually found the gun or not.

566
00:27:12.279 --> 00:27:14.920
I'm sure somebody found it, but whoever found it maybe

567
00:27:14.920 --> 00:27:16.880
didn't turn it into the police and just said, oh,

568
00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:18.079
free gun.

569
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:18.240
On the road.

570
00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:21.640
When they returned to Florida, finally, their first stop was

571
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:24.920
Donna's house. She owed Kevin the remaining twenty five hundred

572
00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:27.000
dollars for the hit, but she only gave him one

573
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:30.720
thousand dollars. I'm waiting on a check to clear, she said.

574
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:33.680
No one pushed back. From there, the group headed to

575
00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:37.279
a nearby waffle house. They ordered breakfast and sat around

576
00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:41.400
the table, eating, laughing and congratulating themselves on a job

577
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:45.640
well done. Just hours after murdering Gail Fulton in cold Blood,

578
00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:50.599
police began their investigation by interviewing the Fulton family, George, Emily,

579
00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:55.319
and Andrew. Although George's behavior struck investigators as suspicious, his

580
00:27:55.400 --> 00:27:58.680
alibi was solid. Andrew, just two months shy of his

581
00:27:58.759 --> 00:28:01.759
eighteenth birthday, old police. He had come home around eight

582
00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:04.440
thirty that evening. You just said he was sixteen.

583
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:05.920
I know, Sorry, my mistake.

584
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:09.160
He heard his dad working downstairs in his home office,

585
00:28:09.240 --> 00:28:11.359
then sat in the den to watch TV. He was

586
00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:14.119
there the whole time until the phone rang at nine

587
00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:17.319
twenty pm, when it was barbed from the library. There

588
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:19.400
was no way, he said that his father could have

589
00:28:19.480 --> 00:28:22.480
left the house without him noticing. Andrew talked about his

590
00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:25.400
parents strained marriage and how his father had carried on

591
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:28.799
an affair with his boss. He believed it started sometime

592
00:28:28.839 --> 00:28:31.640
in late nineteen ninety eight. He didn't know it had

593
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:35.039
actually begun a full year earlier, on Halloween night in

594
00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:38.359
nineteen ninety seven. But more recently, he said things had

595
00:28:38.359 --> 00:28:41.359
seemed better. The affair was over and his parents were

596
00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:44.599
trying to rebuild their relationship. Emily had been out that

597
00:28:44.759 --> 00:28:48.000
night at a pampered chef party. She returned home around

598
00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:51.319
eleven pm to find police inside the house. An officer

599
00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:53.640
gently pulled her inside and said there had been an

600
00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:57.599
incident involving her mother. Emily didn't wait for any more details.

601
00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:02.039
She snapped, quote, that bitch, That bitch killed my mom. Then,

602
00:29:02.119 --> 00:29:04.599
as if reading the room, she added quote, you're going

603
00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:06.559
to blame my father, but I need to tell you

604
00:29:06.599 --> 00:29:09.880
what happened. It's not my father. She did it with

605
00:29:10.039 --> 00:29:13.839
other people. Wow. Emily would later claim she had sent

606
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:18.559
something all day, an unshakable psychic feeling. In her words,

607
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:20.759
she had quote seen what happened.

608
00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:23.279
I think in part one we talked about Emily going

609
00:29:23.319 --> 00:29:25.759
to visit Donna at the motel she was at because

610
00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:28.240
she thought she could read her aura's right and tell

611
00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:31.119
if she was pregnant or not. And Emily in the

612
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:33.920
book that I read for this case by em William Phelps,

613
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:37.599
he talks a lot about that Emily had a lot

614
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:41.559
of psychic premonitions, visions, things like that. That and she

615
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:44.759
had a bad feeling all day, and she didn't want

616
00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:46.920
to go home because she had that bad feeling. So

617
00:29:46.920 --> 00:29:49.119
she was at this pampered chef party and she stayed

618
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:51.359
there instead of going home because she was kind of

619
00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:55.039
dreading going back to find out what happened to her mom.

620
00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:57.880
Because we have so many international listeners when we say

621
00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:01.079
things like a pampered chef party, always curious if people

622
00:30:01.160 --> 00:30:04.279
know really what we're talking about. Pampered chef party? Well,

623
00:30:04.279 --> 00:30:04.720
do you even know?

624
00:30:04.759 --> 00:30:06.319
I'm not really? I mean I can, I can kind

625
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:07.440
of imagine they.

626
00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:09.319
Used to be bigger. I haven't gone to one in years,

627
00:30:09.319 --> 00:30:11.880
but it would. It's like kitchen stuff, you know, like

628
00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:14.720
I think I had a greater from there, and just

629
00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:17.359
you know a lot of fun kitchen gadgets and things

630
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:17.799
like that.

631
00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:19.720
Like they used to have tupperware parties way back in

632
00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:22.559
the day, and then pampered chef parties became popular.

633
00:30:22.759 --> 00:30:24.359
I just think it's funny that you know so much

634
00:30:24.359 --> 00:30:28.720
about the parties that ladies go to. The police brought

635
00:30:28.759 --> 00:30:31.839
George back in for a more formal interview. The first

636
00:30:31.880 --> 00:30:35.480
conversation hadn't gone well, and this one wasn't much better.

637
00:30:35.720 --> 00:30:38.400
They asked if he and Gail had been having marital problems.

638
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:42.680
George's answer was affirm almost aggressive no. They asked about

639
00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:45.799
the affair. George admitted to it, but insisted that it

640
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.880
was over and that he and Gail were reconciling. Then

641
00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:52.039
came the big question, did he think Donna Trapani could

642
00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:54.720
have had anything to do with Gail's murder? Again, he

643
00:30:54.799 --> 00:30:58.200
was emphatic no, she could never do something like that.

644
00:30:58.519 --> 00:31:01.039
He added that he had spoken to Donna four or

645
00:31:01.079 --> 00:31:04.519
five times that day, calls, he claimed, we're strictly business,

646
00:31:04.880 --> 00:31:08.519
including he said, exactly at nine pm, the time of

647
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:11.039
the murder. I don't know why that makes me so mad.

648
00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:14.119
I know, yeah, it's almost like she called him knowing

649
00:31:14.119 --> 00:31:16.799
that it was going to happen, and partly maybe to

650
00:31:16.920 --> 00:31:19.279
establish an alibi, but obviously she was in Florida.

651
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:23.079
Just like, so just so sad that Gail is dying

652
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:23.839
at the end.

653
00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:26.759
Right, and it's like Donna just wanted to be on

654
00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:29.519
the phone with George right at that time. Just yeah,

655
00:31:29.559 --> 00:31:30.920
she's horrible, horrible.

656
00:31:31.400 --> 00:31:34.519
When asked if he would take a polygraph, George refused, quote,

657
00:31:34.599 --> 00:31:37.599
I don't believe in polygraphs. He said that added, and

658
00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:40.119
you know what, I'm all done talking with you. I

659
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:43.359
need to leave, and just like that the interview was over.

660
00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:46.200
George saying that he doesn't believe in polygraphs is so

661
00:31:46.279 --> 00:31:49.000
funny to me, George, it doesn't matter if you believe

662
00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:50.519
it's really what the police believe.

663
00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:53.359
It's really not something that is a matter of belief

664
00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:53.720
or not.

665
00:31:54.200 --> 00:31:57.920
Later that night, around one am, investigators called Jhona Trapani

666
00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:01.559
at her home in Florida. She answered, sounding groggy but alert.

667
00:32:01.799 --> 00:32:04.920
The officer asked her about her relationship with George, the affair,

668
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:07.799
and her company. When was the last time they spoke,

669
00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:11.400
When had their sexual relationship ended? Do you think Donna

670
00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:13.799
was surprised that they called her so quickly?

671
00:32:13.960 --> 00:32:15.640
No, I don't think she was at all surprised.

672
00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:20.359
Donna was calm, open, cooperative. She answered everything without hesitation,

673
00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:23.519
But something struck the officer at the end of the call.

674
00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:27.079
Not once had Donna asked why they were calling her

675
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:30.240
at one am to ask questions about George Fulton. It

676
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:32.640
was almost as if she already knew.

677
00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:36.599
As investigators dug deeper into Donna Trapani, the red flags

678
00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:40.799
kept piling up. They listened to the voicemails, rage filled, erratic,

679
00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:44.400
emotionally manipulative messages that she had left for George and

680
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:47.039
even for Gail's mother, Dora. The more they heard, the

681
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:50.079
more convinced they became that Donna was behind this. She

682
00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:53.240
had an airtight alibi she had been one thousand miles away,

683
00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:56.480
but it didn't matter. The tone of the messages, the obsession,

684
00:32:56.799 --> 00:32:59.720
the threat laced language. They all pointed to someone who

685
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:03.359
was capable of orchestrating murder. If Donna didn't pull the trigger,

686
00:33:03.559 --> 00:33:06.279
she almost certainly hired someone who did. And when it

687
00:33:06.279 --> 00:33:08.559
comes to murder for hire, there are two things that

688
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:11.960
nearly always bring the whole plan crashing down a money

689
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:16.000
trail and loose lipped co conspirators. Investigators knew it was

690
00:33:16.039 --> 00:33:19.160
only a matter of time. George, meanwhile, remained a person

691
00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:22.799
of interest, but something had shifted. After consulting with a lawyer,

692
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:27.359
he returned to the police, this time with a new attitude, cooperative, open,

693
00:33:27.799 --> 00:33:30.480
willing to talk. He even agreed to take a polygraph.

694
00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:34.119
At one point, Seemingly aware that the investigations still had

695
00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:37.519
him in its sights. George told detectives quote, if there

696
00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:39.559
comes a time when you have to arrest me, I

697
00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:41.640
hope you don't do it at the airport or in

698
00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:44.000
front of my children. I'll come in here any time

699
00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:44.640
you want me to.

700
00:33:44.839 --> 00:33:45.759
Why not the air.

701
00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:49.680
I think just public places. Maybe it was what he

702
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:53.119
was kind of getting at. His statement raised eyebrows, it

703
00:33:53.240 --> 00:33:55.839
sounded more like a man bracing for something than one

704
00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:59.680
who felt truly cleared. At Gayle's funeral, held in her hometown,

705
00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:02.599
of course, Orpis Christy George flew in to say goodbye,

706
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:05.920
but not everyone was comforted by his presence. Many of

707
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:09.000
the mourners watched him with cold eyes, convinced he was

708
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:11.280
merely playing the part of the grieving widower.

709
00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:13.880
You know, I feel really bad. I have not asked

710
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:17.440
about Donna's pregnancy, how is she feeling, how is that going?

711
00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:19.480
And her cancer treatment.

712
00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:21.559
I know Donna's got a lot going on.

713
00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:24.960
No is she doing okay with all the extra added stress?

714
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:28.400
Just hold titan, we'll find out. A few days after

715
00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:31.880
Gail's murder, Donna showed up at Sibyl's house. She'd brought

716
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:34.599
more cash for Kevin, but once again, it wasn't the

717
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:37.320
full amount that she owed him. That didn't sit well.

718
00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:40.960
Kevin was growing increasingly irritated with her broken promises.

719
00:34:41.239 --> 00:34:43.760
There's one thing I've learned doing true crime. You pay

720
00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:45.559
your hitman the full amount.

721
00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:48.199
Yeah. Absolutely. And I don't know if you remember from

722
00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:51.039
part one, but Donna's business was going under. It was

723
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:55.000
like she was completely underwater, about to go bankrupt, about

724
00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:57.400
to close the doors of the business, so she was

725
00:34:57.440 --> 00:35:00.639
not in a good place financially. Donna also brought something

726
00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:03.480
else with her to Sibyls that day, a folder stuffed

727
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:06.559
with newspaper clippings about the murder. She pointed out that

728
00:35:06.599 --> 00:35:09.639
the headlines were calling it a professional hit. It was

729
00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:12.400
meant as a compliment. She told Kevin he had done

730
00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:15.199
a great job, but there was one detail that dampened

731
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:19.079
their self congratulations. The crew hadn't realized that the library

732
00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:22.679
had security cameras. The story made it clear Gail's murder

733
00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:25.760
had been caught on video. Donna and Kevin both knew

734
00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:28.679
the police were starting to connect the dots, so Donna

735
00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:31.719
came up with what she considered a brilliant plan. She

736
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:34.639
wanted Kevin to go back to Michigan, find a random

737
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:37.320
drug addict down the street, kill him, and leave a

738
00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:39.719
note on the body. The note would say that the

739
00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:42.679
wrong person had been killed in the library shooting, that

740
00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:45.639
it had been a botched job. Her hope was to

741
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:47.840
throw off the police and make it look like Gail's

742
00:35:47.880 --> 00:35:50.519
murder was just a tragic mistake. So I'll just say

743
00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:54.519
I am not sure, I fully understand what Donna's big

744
00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:57.800
plan was here, Like, I think she was trying to

745
00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:00.400
say that, oh, we'll kill this person and then make

746
00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:03.519
it look like that person was supposed to kill someone else,

747
00:36:03.559 --> 00:36:04.679
but killed the wrong person.

748
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:07.760
So they killed themselves because they were no.

749
00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:10.199
So somebody else killed them for I don't know. It's

750
00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:14.440
such a convoluted, crazy plan. It makes no sense, but

751
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:17.199
that was I think Donna's mind was just trying to

752
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:20.719
be freaking out. Yeah, I imagine.

753
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:23.639
Business is going under. She's pregnant, she has cancer. You're

754
00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:25.360
not going to tell me those things are false, are you?

755
00:36:25.800 --> 00:36:28.440
Well, I guess we'll have to find out. So for

756
00:36:28.519 --> 00:36:32.239
Donna's new master plan, she offered Kevin another five thousand

757
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:35.400
dollars for this follow up job. Kevin said sure, he

758
00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:37.719
would do it, but he actually had no intention of

759
00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:40.199
going through with it. He just wanted the money. He

760
00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:43.199
told Donna he needed the cash up front. His plan

761
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:45.679
was to take the money and disappear, but when the

762
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:48.559
time came to meet up and collect, Donna never showed.

763
00:36:48.920 --> 00:36:52.119
Kevin was furious, but instead of pushing it, he decided

764
00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:54.400
he was done. He took a job as a cross

765
00:36:54.440 --> 00:36:58.199
country trucker and hit the road, leaving Florida behind. With

766
00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:00.920
Gail out of the way, Donna seemed to believe it

767
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:04.159
was finally time to reclaim her man. She and George

768
00:37:04.199 --> 00:37:08.400
resumed contact not long after the murder, mostly to discuss business.

769
00:37:08.760 --> 00:37:12.320
George was frustrated Donna owed him money for consulting work

770
00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:14.960
he had done, and with her company circling the drain,

771
00:37:15.159 --> 00:37:19.360
she had fallen behind by more than thirteen thousand dollars. Still,

772
00:37:19.480 --> 00:37:23.760
Donna saw opportunity. On Halloween, four weeks after Gail's death

773
00:37:23.800 --> 00:37:26.280
and two years to the day since she and George

774
00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:29.239
had first met, Donna sent him a card. It was

775
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:32.280
filled with memories of their first night together, their connection,

776
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:35.960
her longing for his voice, his laugh. The card had

777
00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:39.000
I Love you printed on the inside. Donna added the

778
00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:42.800
word in her handwriting. Still, she also sent a dozen

779
00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:46.119
red roses. George didn't bring them home. He took them

780
00:37:46.119 --> 00:37:48.679
to his church and left them there. By then, he

781
00:37:48.760 --> 00:37:52.480
had started to consider the unthinkable that Donna might have

782
00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:53.559
had Gail killed.

783
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:55.159
I don't think that's unthinkable.

784
00:37:55.400 --> 00:37:58.440
It shouldn't be unthinkable that George was just so slow

785
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:02.360
and clueless. It's just it boggles the mind. But George

786
00:38:02.360 --> 00:38:05.840
wanted nothing of her in his home. But Donna didn't stop.

787
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:09.039
Throughout November, she kept emailing him. When she didn't get

788
00:38:09.039 --> 00:38:11.920
the response she wanted, she tried a new tactic. On

789
00:38:11.960 --> 00:38:15.719
November twenty ninth, George's fax machine word to life, out

790
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:21.000
came an anonymous letter eighteen pages, single spaced as a

791
00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:25.280
supposedly anonymous letter to George on his fax machine that

792
00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:27.119
Donna used all the time.

793
00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:27.440
Right.

794
00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:30.679
The supposed author claimed to be a friend of Gail's.

795
00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:33.639
According to the letter, Gail had once told this friend

796
00:38:33.679 --> 00:38:37.360
a shocking secret. She had given George a homemade herbal

797
00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:41.039
truth serum one night while he was asleep. Under its influence,

798
00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:44.239
George had confessed how much he loved Donna and how

799
00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:48.880
miserable he was at home. This is the most ridiculous

800
00:38:48.920 --> 00:38:51.440
thing I've ever heard, I think, in all the cases

801
00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:54.960
we've ever done. So Donna sends, well, we know it

802
00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:55.400
was Donna.

803
00:38:55.480 --> 00:38:55.639
Right.

804
00:38:55.840 --> 00:39:00.360
She sends this anonymous letter, supposedly from a friend of Gail's, saying, Oh,

805
00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:03.760
Gail gave you truth serum one night, and you told

806
00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:07.840
Gail how much you loved Donna. The letter went on

807
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:11.360
to describe Donna as being really smart and special. It

808
00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:14.039
said that George should go back to her, his true love,

809
00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:17.559
if he ever hoped to be happy. It was totally absurd,

810
00:39:17.639 --> 00:39:19.719
and it was obvious who had written it. It was

811
00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:23.039
a desperate, last ditch effort from Donna Trapani to win

812
00:39:23.159 --> 00:39:23.880
George back.

813
00:39:24.039 --> 00:39:25.400
Donna is not well, is she?

814
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:25.679
No?

815
00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:28.159
She is not well. It didn't work, but at that

816
00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:31.039
point it didn't matter because Donna was about to have

817
00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:35.119
bigger problems. The walls were closing in. We'll be back

818
00:39:35.159 --> 00:39:35.920
after a break.

819
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:46.159
The case broke wide open in mid November. Investigators had

820
00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:49.320
been working to identify the car captured in the grainy

821
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:53.440
library surveillance footage. From the video, they determined it was

822
00:39:53.480 --> 00:39:57.199
a Chevy Malibu with a busted tail light. They started

823
00:39:57.239 --> 00:40:00.599
calling car rental agencies hoping to find a map, and

824
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:04.199
they got one. A wrential agency in Florida told detectives

825
00:40:04.239 --> 00:40:07.320
that a woman named Donna Trapani had been a regular

826
00:40:07.400 --> 00:40:11.239
customer and that she always requested Malibu's. One of those

827
00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:14.599
cars had been rented on September tenth and still hadn't

828
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:18.119
been returned. The agency said they'd repeatedly tried to reach

829
00:40:18.199 --> 00:40:20.880
Donna She owed them money and had claimed that she

830
00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:24.199
was dealing with a family emergency, but now she wasn't

831
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:27.880
answering calls at all. Then came another break. An old

832
00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:31.519
friend and sometime lover of Civil Paget came forward. He

833
00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:34.320
told police that one night, while they were lying in bed,

834
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:37.760
Sybil casually mentioned that her friend Donna was looking for

835
00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:40.599
someone to kill a woman. He assumed that she was joking,

836
00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:43.320
but later she brought it up again and this time

837
00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:46.159
introduced him to Donna. She made it clear that she

838
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:49.760
wasn't joking. She was looking to have someone in Michigan killed.

839
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:53.000
At first, he didn't take it seriously, but when Gail's

840
00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:56.599
murder hit the news, everything clicked and his conscience got

841
00:40:56.639 --> 00:40:59.599
the better of him. He called the police. Detectives went

842
00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:02.880
straight to Sybil Paget's house and parked out front was

843
00:41:02.920 --> 00:41:06.239
a Chevy Malibu with a broken tail light. That was

844
00:41:06.280 --> 00:41:08.679
all they needed. When Sybil opened the door and saw

845
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:11.599
two detectives standing there, she knew the game was up.

846
00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:14.320
She agreed to talk, and then she told them everything.

847
00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:17.400
She was arrested on the spot. Next they picked up

848
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:21.159
Patrick Alexander. Like Sybil, Patrick didn't put up a fight.

849
00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:24.199
He admitted his role in the murder plot, emphasized that

850
00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:27.519
he was only the getaway driver, but confessed to everything

851
00:41:27.559 --> 00:41:31.440
he knew. His story matched Sibyl's. Then the police asked

852
00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:35.079
where's Kevin Olette. Patrick didn't know exactly, but he thought

853
00:41:35.159 --> 00:41:37.400
Kevin had taken a job as a long haul trucker.

854
00:41:37.719 --> 00:41:41.280
Investigators tracked down the trucking company, who confirmed that Kevin

855
00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:44.800
was on the road headed towards Connecticut. The truck was

856
00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:48.079
GPS equipped, they could see exactly where he was at

857
00:41:48.119 --> 00:41:51.639
all times. Two days later, police arrested Kevin at a

858
00:41:51.679 --> 00:41:55.000
rest stop in Connecticut, and like the others, Kevin knew

859
00:41:55.039 --> 00:41:58.519
it was over. He cooperated. His account matched Sybil and

860
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:02.320
Patrick's down to the Molli's detail. Now there was only

861
00:42:02.360 --> 00:42:06.039
one person left to arrest, the woman who'd orchestrated it all,

862
00:42:06.360 --> 00:42:11.440
the big fish, Donna Trapani. On December one, nineteen ninety nine,

863
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:15.400
detectives knocked on her door, no answer. One officer left

864
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:17.320
a card on the door, and then they parked a

865
00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:20.559
few houses down to watch. A Short time later, the

866
00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:24.400
detective's cell phone rang. It was Donna. She apologized for

867
00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:27.599
missing them and invited them to come back inside. She

868
00:42:27.719 --> 00:42:31.840
was calm, chatty, almost cheerful. She talked freely about her

869
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:36.159
relationship with George, about the July fourth misunderstanding, and about

870
00:42:36.199 --> 00:42:39.280
her pregnancy. She said that she was due in three weeks,

871
00:42:39.440 --> 00:42:43.119
although her belly barely showed. She also tried to ship

872
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:46.280
the blame. She told investigators that she had confided in

873
00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:50.760
Sybyl about her heartbreakover George. According to Donna, Sibyl had

874
00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:53.760
become so angry on her behalf that she decided to

875
00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:57.000
seek revenge. It was a clear attempt to set Sybil

876
00:42:57.119 --> 00:42:58.480
up as the mastermind.

877
00:42:58.639 --> 00:43:01.440
That's quite quite a time by Donna, like, oh yeah,

878
00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:05.039
Sybil was just trying to protect me. She just looked

879
00:43:05.039 --> 00:43:05.599
me so much.

880
00:43:05.639 --> 00:43:09.760
That's crazy. Then something bizarre happened. Donna's cat jumped up

881
00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:13.159
on the couch and walked across her lap. The detectives

882
00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:17.360
noticed something strange. The paw prints left indentations like the

883
00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:23.880
cat had stepped on a pillow. Donna's pregnant belly wasn't real.

884
00:43:24.199 --> 00:43:26.880
I like to believe that that cat had it out

885
00:43:26.920 --> 00:43:29.119
for Donna. The cat was probably so sick of Donna,

886
00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:30.440
like I'm going to expose you.

887
00:43:30.719 --> 00:43:34.199
That's really funny. They decided to confront her emotionally. They

888
00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:37.440
showed her graphic crime scene photos of Gail's body, hoping

889
00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:41.440
to provoke guilt, but Donna wasn't disturbed. She was fascinated.

890
00:43:41.679 --> 00:43:44.800
She leaned in studying the blood soaked images while casually

891
00:43:44.840 --> 00:43:47.719
eating pretzels. At one point, she even asked for a

892
00:43:47.719 --> 00:43:51.480
closer look. Oh, Donna, is she's just something, isn't she Yeah.

893
00:43:51.559 --> 00:43:53.920
For a moment, it seemed that she might confess. She

894
00:43:53.960 --> 00:43:57.000
said quote, I mean, if I did do this, if

895
00:43:57.039 --> 00:43:59.599
I am guilty and I did do this, then why

896
00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:01.599
can't I I just be killed and put under two

897
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:04.480
If I did it, I need to give my life.

898
00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:06.679
I cannot say what you want me to say. If

899
00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:08.519
I sat here for the rest of my life, I

900
00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:10.639
wouldn't be able to explain it to you. I don't

901
00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:13.480
know how to say it. It's nothing that was supposed

902
00:44:13.480 --> 00:44:16.320
to happen. I got duped, but not by the people

903
00:44:16.360 --> 00:44:18.679
you think. It was never supposed to happen.

904
00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:21.960
I know that quote by Donna is very confusing, but

905
00:44:22.039 --> 00:44:24.000
it's just a glimpse into her mind. I think she

906
00:44:24.199 --> 00:44:28.519
was just very Her thoughts were not really coherent, Okay.

907
00:44:28.360 --> 00:44:31.039
But then Donna stopped. She asked to call her lawyer.

908
00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:35.760
Detectives arrested Donna Trapani for murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

909
00:44:36.039 --> 00:44:39.079
During the booking process, they discovered the truth behind her

910
00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:43.480
fake pregnancy. Donna had stuffed several placements down the front

911
00:44:43.480 --> 00:44:46.519
of her pants, trying to make her stomach appear swollen.

912
00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:50.280
The act was over, so she did not even invest

913
00:44:50.320 --> 00:44:53.199
in like a fake pregnancy. Bellies, just know she did

914
00:44:53.239 --> 00:44:53.920
things in her pants.

915
00:44:53.960 --> 00:44:55.840
I didn't mention it in the script too, but there

916
00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:59.079
was one mention I found that the police officers were

917
00:44:59.079 --> 00:45:01.840
like doing the math of the date when she supposedly

918
00:45:01.880 --> 00:45:03.800
became pregnant. I think she must have told them at

919
00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:06.159
one point and they were like, it's like eleven months

920
00:45:06.199 --> 00:45:08.599
after that. So that didn't really make a lot of sense.

921
00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:11.519
And did George never do the math or did he

922
00:45:11.639 --> 00:45:13.440
really not believe that she was pregnant?

923
00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:17.119
I think George never questioned it or didn't really maybe

924
00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:20.239
question it until afterwards, but he just he was so

925
00:45:20.360 --> 00:45:23.119
naive and didn't really question things.

926
00:45:23.480 --> 00:45:26.719
So Sybil, Kevin, and Patrick had all confessed, but Donna,

927
00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:30.079
she wasn't going down without a fight. Her defense, however,

928
00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:33.000
far fetched was that Sybil Paget, in an act of

929
00:45:33.039 --> 00:45:36.880
twisted loyalty, had taken it upon herself to avenge Donna's

930
00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:40.119
broken heart. According to Donna, the murder had nothing to

931
00:45:40.159 --> 00:45:43.119
do with her. To make the case, Ara Tite prosecutors

932
00:45:43.119 --> 00:45:46.519
wanted all three co conspirators to testify, but they had

933
00:45:46.599 --> 00:45:50.280
limited leverage, especially with Kevin and Sybil. Michigan has no

934
00:45:50.400 --> 00:45:54.440
death penalty and first degree murder carries a mandatory sentence

935
00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:57.679
life in prison without parole, so there were no deals

936
00:45:57.719 --> 00:46:00.960
to be made, no bargaining chips. Kevin and Sibyl were

937
00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:04.280
in too deep to be offered anything in exchange for

938
00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:08.280
their testimony. Patrick, however, was another story. He'd been the

939
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:11.639
least involved of the three, mostly just the getaway driver.

940
00:46:11.920 --> 00:46:14.360
He was only nineteen at the time of the murder.

941
00:46:14.440 --> 00:46:17.800
The DA offered him a deal plead guilty to second

942
00:46:17.800 --> 00:46:20.800
degree murder in exchange for a sentence of twenty two

943
00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:23.719
to forty years. It wasn't mercy, but it was a

944
00:46:23.800 --> 00:46:26.880
chance at someday rebuilding a life, so he took the

945
00:46:26.920 --> 00:46:30.239
deal and agreed to testify against the others. Kevin was

946
00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:33.360
the first to go on trial in October two thousand,

947
00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:36.360
he was convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to

948
00:46:36.440 --> 00:46:40.400
life in prison no possibility of parole, But then, unexpectedly,

949
00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:43.519
he agreed to testify at the trial of Donna Trapani

950
00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:46.760
and Sibyl Paget. The one thing the DA could offer

951
00:46:47.039 --> 00:46:49.519
was a letter of requesting he served his sentence in

952
00:46:49.559 --> 00:46:52.519
a federal prison closer to his home state of Maine.

953
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:56.320
Donna and Sibyl were tried together beginning in November two thousand.

954
00:46:56.519 --> 00:46:59.000
They had separate juries, but shared the courtroom.

955
00:46:59.079 --> 00:47:00.760
I've never heard of that before for me either.

956
00:47:01.039 --> 00:47:01.760
That's interesting.

957
00:47:01.880 --> 00:47:02.159
Yeah.

958
00:47:02.199 --> 00:47:05.320
One of the key witnesses was George Fulton. His testimony

959
00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:10.440
revealed a deeply uncomfortable truth. He had unintentionally helped Donna

960
00:47:10.519 --> 00:47:14.119
plan the murder. That map with Gail's home and workplace

961
00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:17.320
circled it had Donna in Sibyl's fingerprints on it, but

962
00:47:17.400 --> 00:47:20.880
also George's. He admitted that he had bought the map

963
00:47:20.920 --> 00:47:23.760
and marked it up. He'd once believed Donna would move

964
00:47:23.800 --> 00:47:26.679
to Michigan to have the baby that she claimed was his,

965
00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:30.159
and he wanted to help her get oriented. It was

966
00:47:30.199 --> 00:47:34.039
a gut punch. On cross examination, George also acknowledged that

967
00:47:34.079 --> 00:47:37.599
after Donna and Sybil's arrest that he sent both women

968
00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:38.920
cards in jail.

969
00:47:39.159 --> 00:47:41.440
Oh my goodness, guy, I know he's really something.

970
00:47:41.639 --> 00:47:43.719
He said. It was because he believed that love is

971
00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:46.119
greater than hate, and he wanted to learn to forgive

972
00:47:46.199 --> 00:47:49.199
both himself and the people that killed his wife. He said, quote,

973
00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:52.400
otherwise I cannot heal and get on with my life. Then,

974
00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:56.039
of course, came Donna's turn on the stand. She couldn't resist.

975
00:47:56.360 --> 00:47:59.519
She'd loved being the center of attention, but testifying on

976
00:47:59.559 --> 00:48:02.800
her own behalf was also her only shot. Donna blame

977
00:48:02.840 --> 00:48:06.639
George for everything, her broken business, her ruined life. She

978
00:48:06.760 --> 00:48:09.960
claimed that she had been pregnant but had suffered a miscarriage.

979
00:48:10.119 --> 00:48:14.039
She portrayed herself as a victim, but her testimony quickly

980
00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:17.559
devolved into a circus. The facts were too strong, the

981
00:48:17.639 --> 00:48:23.559
confessions too detailed, the evidence overwhelming. Kevin and Patrick's testimony

982
00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:27.400
sealed it. Donna Trappani and Sivil Paget were both convicted

983
00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:31.599
of first degree murder. Life in prison, no parole, justice

984
00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:32.480
at last.

985
00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:36.039
Dona Trapani and Sybil Paget are both serving their life

986
00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:39.480
sentences at the Women's here On Valley correctional facility just

987
00:48:39.559 --> 00:48:41.400
a few miles from us in Ipsilante.

988
00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:42.480
Do you want to go visit them?

989
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:45.400
No, I really don't have anything that I would want

990
00:48:45.400 --> 00:48:48.400
to say to Donna or Sybil Patrick. Alexander is serving

991
00:48:48.400 --> 00:48:51.360
his sentence in Jackson, Michigan, also not far away. He

992
00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:55.000
became eligible for parole in November twenty twenty two, but

993
00:48:55.239 --> 00:48:58.360
so far he's been denied. If he serves his full sentence,

994
00:48:58.400 --> 00:49:01.360
he'll be released no later than twenty forty. As for

995
00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:03.840
Kevin Ulette, I wasn't able to track him down, but

996
00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:06.440
it's likely that he's serving out his life sentence in

997
00:49:06.519 --> 00:49:10.440
a federal prison in Maine, as requested. Although George Fulton

998
00:49:10.599 --> 00:49:13.599
was cleared of any direct involvement in Gail's murder, it's

999
00:49:13.639 --> 00:49:16.599
impossible to ignore the role that he played. He cheated

1000
00:49:16.599 --> 00:49:19.719
on his wife, he ignored warning signs, he failed to

1001
00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:23.079
recognize that the woman he was involved with was unstable

1002
00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:26.960
despite flashing neon signs in every direction, and most of all,

1003
00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:31.480
he was selfish, clueless, detached. Soon after Gail's murder, George

1004
00:49:31.480 --> 00:49:34.280
told his children, quote, you don't know what suffering is.

1005
00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:37.519
I am the one who knows true suffering Okay, George,

1006
00:49:38.079 --> 00:49:41.000
he's really like, he really drives me crazy. In this case,

1007
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:44.400
it's always about him, you know. To Emily and Andrew,

1008
00:49:44.440 --> 00:49:47.000
it felt like their father hadn't just destroyed their family,

1009
00:49:47.079 --> 00:49:49.920
he had also stolen their grief and made their pain

1010
00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:54.599
about him. And yet with time George changed. Apparently. Emily

1011
00:49:54.719 --> 00:49:57.039
later said quote, he did get help and is a

1012
00:49:57.039 --> 00:49:59.639
better person Now. I know my dad's not perfect, but

1013
00:49:59.719 --> 00:50:02.199
he a lot better than he was back then. My

1014
00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:04.599
dad is actually quite nice to be around.

1015
00:50:04.840 --> 00:50:06.440
Well, that is really good to hear.

1016
00:50:06.920 --> 00:50:08.920
I know. I'm I'm glad to hear it too. He

1017
00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:11.599
just he seems so selfish and like such a jerk.

1018
00:50:11.679 --> 00:50:13.800
But he's the only parent they have left, so I'm

1019
00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:16.880
glad that he at least seems to have turned things around.

1020
00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:19.760
Well. Emily sounds like she has a really good perspective too,

1021
00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:23.159
like acknowledging that he's not perfect, but having an imperfect

1022
00:50:23.239 --> 00:50:25.679
relationship is better with than no relationship.

1023
00:50:25.800 --> 00:50:29.480
Yeah. George remarried in two thousand and four. At one point,

1024
00:50:29.519 --> 00:50:32.440
he was reportedly writing a book about the ordeal, but

1025
00:50:32.519 --> 00:50:35.079
it seems that that project never saw the light of day.

1026
00:50:35.440 --> 00:50:38.159
Gail's mother, Dora, passed away in twenty twenty one at

1027
00:50:38.199 --> 00:50:41.400
the age of eighty nine. As for Gail and George's children,

1028
00:50:41.519 --> 00:50:42.840
I haven't been able to find.

1029
00:50:42.679 --> 00:50:44.320
Much because it's really none of our business.

1030
00:50:44.440 --> 00:50:47.280
It really isn't. Emily did earn a degree in finance

1031
00:50:47.320 --> 00:50:49.079
from Oakland University.

1032
00:50:48.679 --> 00:50:51.039
My alma mater, Golden Grizzly, that's.

1033
00:50:50.960 --> 00:50:53.440
Right, and later she got an MBA from the University

1034
00:50:53.480 --> 00:50:56.400
of Michigan, my other alma mater, Go Blue. Last I

1035
00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:59.039
saw she was living in the Chicago area, working as

1036
00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:02.119
a life coach and energy healer. She has a family

1037
00:51:02.159 --> 00:51:04.079
of her own now, and she looks a lot like

1038
00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:07.119
her mother. Andrew, I believe is living in San Diego.

1039
00:51:07.239 --> 00:51:09.840
And Melissa, the oldest, who we didn't talk about in

1040
00:51:09.880 --> 00:51:12.159
Part two. We've talked about her in Part one. She's

1041
00:51:12.199 --> 00:51:14.800
living in Texas. I don't know any more about your lives,

1042
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:17.079
your rights, none of our business, but I hope that

1043
00:51:17.159 --> 00:51:18.440
they've found peace.

1044
00:51:18.599 --> 00:51:18.920
Me too.

1045
00:51:19.159 --> 00:51:21.679
Gail Fulton was forty eight years old when her life

1046
00:51:21.719 --> 00:51:24.880
was taken. She was a mother, a librarian, a kind

1047
00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:28.880
hearted woman who deserved so much more. Rest in peace, scale.

1048
00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:32.639
Rest in peace. She sounded like a really sweet, loving

1049
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:33.599
wife and mother.

1050
00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:34.800
Yeah, she really did.

1051
00:51:34.880 --> 00:51:37.199
She definitely deserved more from her husband.

1052
00:51:37.320 --> 00:51:40.440
Yes, speaking of her husband, we've talked about him a

1053
00:51:40.440 --> 00:51:43.320
fair amount, But what do you think how much responsibility

1054
00:51:43.360 --> 00:51:45.400
does he bear in his wife's death.

1055
00:51:45.719 --> 00:51:48.239
That's a hard question to answer, because he had an

1056
00:51:48.280 --> 00:51:51.000
affair he shouldn't have an affair. The affair obviously was

1057
00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:55.480
very damaging to his wife and his children, and I

1058
00:51:55.480 --> 00:51:58.079
think sometimes you don't know what a person is capable

1059
00:51:58.119 --> 00:52:00.840
of when you become involved with them, and George definitely

1060
00:52:00.840 --> 00:52:02.119
seemed a little oblivious.

1061
00:52:02.199 --> 00:52:04.320
He clearly had blinders on, yeah.

1062
00:52:04.280 --> 00:52:08.559
To Donna's level of deception. So I don't think he

1063
00:52:08.599 --> 00:52:11.360
was responsible for Gail's death. I think he was responsible

1064
00:52:11.440 --> 00:52:15.039
for maybe I getting involved with another woman that he

1065
00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:17.400
shouldn't have done. But you know, he definitely didn't want

1066
00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:20.039
Gail dead, right, He had no part in planning it,

1067
00:52:20.079 --> 00:52:20.719
I don't believe.

1068
00:52:20.960 --> 00:52:23.119
So, No, he didn't have any part in planning it.

1069
00:52:23.159 --> 00:52:26.000
He didn't pull the trigger, but he does. It does

1070
00:52:26.039 --> 00:52:29.400
frustrate me so much that he just was blind to

1071
00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:31.880
all these warning signs. Like you said, he had an

1072
00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:34.800
affair that was wrong, but the fact that he just

1073
00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:39.039
didn't realize that he was seeing a psycho. I mean,

1074
00:52:39.480 --> 00:52:41.480
there should have been enough warning signs for him. So

1075
00:52:41.840 --> 00:52:43.760
definitely not responsible.

1076
00:52:43.320 --> 00:52:45.800
Right, and he should have severed things. And the fact

1077
00:52:45.800 --> 00:52:47.760
that he still had to work with her, and I

1078
00:52:47.800 --> 00:52:50.920
guess he was sending her cards and things like that

1079
00:52:51.039 --> 00:52:51.559
like that was.

1080
00:52:51.639 --> 00:52:54.719
Yeah, he sent very mixed messages to her, And yeah,

1081
00:52:54.719 --> 00:52:56.960
he should have when he finally made the decision to

1082
00:52:56.960 --> 00:52:59.000
break things off, he should have made a clean break.

1083
00:52:59.039 --> 00:53:02.519
It just said, this is it. But yeah, unfortunately, hindsight

1084
00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:05.639
is twenty twenty. Donna was, for whatever reason, was so

1085
00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:08.800
clearly obsessed with George. I think that's what ended up

1086
00:53:08.920 --> 00:53:11.760
driving her to really go to any lengths to try

1087
00:53:11.760 --> 00:53:14.599
to keep him. What do you think can cause someone

1088
00:53:14.639 --> 00:53:18.239
to become that, like just obsessed with some another person,

1089
00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:20.559
Like I've never I've been in love, but I've never

1090
00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:22.920
been like you know, that obsessed with someone.

1091
00:53:23.079 --> 00:53:23.920
You're obsessed with me?

1092
00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:26.880
But you yes, but I have you so well, I'm.

1093
00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:29.119
Obsessed with you too, because you're the best. I think

1094
00:53:29.159 --> 00:53:32.079
the fear of being alone is really scary for a

1095
00:53:32.079 --> 00:53:34.639
lot of people, and she didn't want to be abandoned

1096
00:53:34.679 --> 00:53:38.199
by George. I wonder if maybe she had some orderline

1097
00:53:38.239 --> 00:53:42.880
personality disorder, because that is a big trigger for that. Yeah, disorder.

1098
00:53:43.679 --> 00:53:44.679
I don't know, what do you think?

1099
00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:47.880
Yeah, you're probably right. We did talk in part one

1100
00:53:48.159 --> 00:53:51.599
that a lot of people speculated that she had bipolar disorder,

1101
00:53:51.639 --> 00:53:54.559
which I'm not sure is that related to borderline personality.

1102
00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:57.280
Two different things, but sometimes they do coincide.

1103
00:53:57.360 --> 00:54:00.599
Yeah, I mean, she definitely had some mental issues going on.

1104
00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:03.320
But yeah, I don't know what can cause someone to

1105
00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:05.320
be that obsessed that they would kill for someone.

1106
00:54:05.400 --> 00:54:05.599
Yeah.

1107
00:54:05.599 --> 00:54:07.800
I don't think it's that George was like the you know,

1108
00:54:07.880 --> 00:54:10.719
the biggest fish in the sea, you know that she

1109
00:54:10.840 --> 00:54:12.280
was so in love with him. I think it was

1110
00:54:12.360 --> 00:54:14.440
more that she wanted to be with somebody, and I

1111
00:54:14.440 --> 00:54:17.159
think we lie to ourselves and we convince ourselves that

1112
00:54:17.199 --> 00:54:19.400
this is the person, is perfect, and you know, I

1113
00:54:19.599 --> 00:54:21.760
need to be with them, and it's just that, you know,

1114
00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:25.079
fear of rejection and abandonment. I think that ends up

1115
00:54:25.239 --> 00:54:28.599
predicting their behaviors. Yeah. The part of the case when

1116
00:54:28.679 --> 00:54:31.199
they were at the library and the library was closing

1117
00:54:31.320 --> 00:54:34.199
and the workers were coming up, I was so hoping

1118
00:54:34.800 --> 00:54:37.199
that Gail would be saved then, yeah, that the co

1119
00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:41.159
workers would you know, someone would lag behind and help

1120
00:54:41.159 --> 00:54:43.360
her with her car, and there wouldn't be an opportunity

1121
00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:46.199
to share that. So, you know, the butterfly effect, like

1122
00:54:46.280 --> 00:54:49.000
what could have happened just slightly differently that would have

1123
00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:49.880
saved her life.

1124
00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:52.079
Yeah, I thought that same thing, and I think, you know,

1125
00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:55.920
their plan that they put together, they got pretty lucky

1126
00:54:56.000 --> 00:54:58.719
that it worked from their point of view, because I

1127
00:54:58.719 --> 00:55:01.159
would think in most cases, if your flat, if your

1128
00:55:01.159 --> 00:55:04.360
tire was flat, a coworker might see that, oh, they're

1129
00:55:04.400 --> 00:55:06.880
having a problem with their car. Might it just so

1130
00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:09.079
happened that they must have been a little bit ahead

1131
00:55:09.079 --> 00:55:10.159
of her and just not seen.

1132
00:55:10.519 --> 00:55:10.760
Yeah.

1133
00:55:10.880 --> 00:55:12.639
When I used to work late at night, we would

1134
00:55:12.679 --> 00:55:14.599
all just you know, go out together, or someone was

1135
00:55:14.599 --> 00:55:17.000
always with you to make sure you saw the light

1136
00:55:17.480 --> 00:55:19.440
in your car. But I guess in this case, she

1137
00:55:19.480 --> 00:55:21.400
didn't know until she started driving on it.

1138
00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:21.760
Right.

1139
00:55:21.880 --> 00:55:25.599
Yeah, it's just it's it's so sad that you're right,

1140
00:55:25.800 --> 00:55:28.559
like the butterfly effect, one thing differently could have had

1141
00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:31.639
a different outcome, but just not the case. Before we close,

1142
00:55:31.679 --> 00:55:34.000
I should mention that the main source that I used

1143
00:55:34.039 --> 00:55:37.159
in this case was M. William Phelps book Kiss of

1144
00:55:37.199 --> 00:55:39.360
the she Devil. As you know, I have a love

1145
00:55:39.400 --> 00:55:40.480
hate relationship with them.

1146
00:55:41.159 --> 00:55:41.400
You do.

1147
00:55:42.079 --> 00:55:44.519
Whenever you tell me what your sources and you're reading

1148
00:55:44.559 --> 00:55:46.039
one of his books, I always get a little nervous.

1149
00:55:46.079 --> 00:55:47.400
It like, oh, no, he's gonna hate it.

1150
00:55:47.719 --> 00:55:50.760
He does great research, he gets a lot of information,

1151
00:55:50.960 --> 00:55:52.840
and he writes quite a few books.

1152
00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:53.800
He's prolific.

1153
00:55:53.920 --> 00:55:56.519
He's very prolific. But I don't know something about his

1154
00:55:56.599 --> 00:55:59.199
writing style. I just have a hard time with He

1155
00:55:59.280 --> 00:56:02.119
kind of jumps around a lot and repeats things a lot.

1156
00:56:02.199 --> 00:56:05.239
But it was it was a good a good book.

1157
00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:14.880
I've been thinking a lot lately about how we've been

1158
00:56:14.880 --> 00:56:17.360
doing this for a while and we've enjoyed it a lot,

1159
00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:20.639
and we love having discussions with our listeners and sometimes

1160
00:56:20.639 --> 00:56:24.559
people disagree with us, and that's okay, Yeah, it's absolutely

1161
00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:27.400
fine and great. Actually, if you disagree with us and

1162
00:56:27.440 --> 00:56:29.599
you want to have a conversation and you know, reach

1163
00:56:29.639 --> 00:56:33.039
out to us by email or social media, because we're

1164
00:56:33.079 --> 00:56:35.400
not experts. We're just mom and dad and we're telling

1165
00:56:35.440 --> 00:56:36.559
these stories and.

1166
00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:38.960
Right, and we do our best to try to, you know,

1167
00:56:39.000 --> 00:56:40.920
stick to the facts when we talk about the case.

1168
00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:43.920
But then we have discussion outside of the facts that

1169
00:56:44.039 --> 00:56:47.400
we speculate or offer our opinions and things like that,

1170
00:56:47.440 --> 00:56:50.199
and you're right, it's absolutely fine for people to disagree

1171
00:56:50.199 --> 00:56:54.159
with us. We are not former prosecutors, former police officers,

1172
00:56:54.320 --> 00:56:56.480
lawyers or anything like that. We're just two people.

1173
00:56:56.559 --> 00:56:58.920
And honestly, there are a lot of really good podcasts

1174
00:56:58.960 --> 00:57:01.559
out there. The secutors, they do a good job, and

1175
00:57:01.599 --> 00:57:04.800
other podcasts. I think, let's go to court their lawyers.

1176
00:57:04.840 --> 00:57:07.039
And there's other people that are like police officers. I

1177
00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:08.440
can't think of one off the top of my head.

1178
00:57:08.480 --> 00:57:11.079
But we're just kind of like we're hanging out as

1179
00:57:11.159 --> 00:57:14.000
friends having a discussion and yeah, and.

1180
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:17.039
Hopefully that comes through, and I think most people appreciate that.

1181
00:57:17.119 --> 00:57:18.960
But yeah, it is worth saying it once in a

1182
00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:21.760
while that we are just offering our opinions.

1183
00:57:21.360 --> 00:57:23.760
Here, yeah, and never feel like we are trying to

1184
00:57:23.800 --> 00:57:27.840
state our opinion as fact. And it's totally okay to

1185
00:57:27.880 --> 00:57:30.159
have a different opinion than we do. You talked a

1186
00:57:30.199 --> 00:57:33.440
lot about Emily and how Emily had some sort of

1187
00:57:33.519 --> 00:57:36.079
like powers and maybe she was psychic and she could

1188
00:57:36.119 --> 00:57:39.920
read auras, right, what do you think about the metaphysical world?

1189
00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:42.119
I guess do you think that's possible? I don't you

1190
00:57:42.239 --> 00:57:44.559
had any experiences. Not really.

1191
00:57:44.719 --> 00:57:47.199
I have mixed feelings about it. I used to believe

1192
00:57:47.400 --> 00:57:51.039
that it was possible for people to have psychic powers,

1193
00:57:51.079 --> 00:57:52.760
but I don't know. Over the years, I've kind of

1194
00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:56.039
grown less and less inclined to believe that. But I

1195
00:57:56.039 --> 00:57:58.599
don't know. I have an open mind. I suppose anything

1196
00:57:58.679 --> 00:58:02.599
is possible, but I just not not convinced. What about you,

1197
00:58:03.079 --> 00:58:03.760
I don't know.

1198
00:58:03.840 --> 00:58:08.679
There is definitely something to intuition, like especially mother's intuition. Yeah,

1199
00:58:08.760 --> 00:58:11.039
because sometimes I can I really just get a sense

1200
00:58:11.159 --> 00:58:14.639
or a feeling that something is wrong. That's not always right.

1201
00:58:14.960 --> 00:58:17.559
I'm so grateful because a lot of times I'm wrong.

1202
00:58:18.159 --> 00:58:21.360
But you know, sometimes there is something there, and you

1203
00:58:21.400 --> 00:58:22.639
know it's hard to ignore it.

1204
00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:22.960
Yeah.

1205
00:58:22.960 --> 00:58:24.599
Well, I don't think we're men to ignore it. I

1206
00:58:24.639 --> 00:58:27.639
think if you have that feeling, right, well, trust your gut,

1207
00:58:27.760 --> 00:58:30.400
even if it's not related to either kids or whatever.

1208
00:58:30.599 --> 00:58:33.559
Trust if you get an icky feeling about someone you know,

1209
00:58:33.599 --> 00:58:34.360
trust your gut.

1210
00:58:34.559 --> 00:58:37.360
Yeah, definitely that I totally agree with that. And I

1211
00:58:37.400 --> 00:58:39.800
was going to say, in doing, like in researching all

1212
00:58:39.840 --> 00:58:41.599
the cases we've done over the last you know, two

1213
00:58:41.679 --> 00:58:43.360
and a half years or so, there have been a

1214
00:58:43.360 --> 00:58:46.519
few cases where that happens where somebody has a bad

1215
00:58:46.559 --> 00:58:49.079
feeling right there across the country and right at the

1216
00:58:49.119 --> 00:58:51.960
time that their loved one was killed. They get this

1217
00:58:52.119 --> 00:58:54.639
feeling and they just knew something was wrong. And there

1218
00:58:54.639 --> 00:58:57.920
are I have read some very credible reports like that.

1219
00:58:58.079 --> 00:59:00.480
So it does seem like maybe if you're really closely

1220
00:59:00.480 --> 00:59:02.679
connected with someone, there is a little bit of a

1221
00:59:02.960 --> 00:59:06.559
psychic connection there too. So speaking of people speaking to

1222
00:59:06.639 --> 00:59:09.000
us from beyond the grave, I thought I saw a

1223
00:59:09.039 --> 00:59:11.199
news report that I thought was interesting. We've talked about

1224
00:59:11.239 --> 00:59:14.239
AI a fair amount on this podcast, partly because I'm

1225
00:59:14.280 --> 00:59:17.719
kind of fascinated by AI. It's really an interesting time,

1226
00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:21.960
I think in our world with the way it can

1227
00:59:22.000 --> 00:59:24.360
be very frightening. But this is very a true crime

1228
00:59:24.440 --> 00:59:27.280
related AI story. So there was a guy, his name

1229
00:59:27.360 --> 00:59:30.800
was Gabriel hork Asidis, who was convicted of manslaughter in

1230
00:59:30.840 --> 00:59:33.719
a road rage incident. He had shot and killed this man,

1231
00:59:33.920 --> 00:59:36.559
a thirty seven year old named Christopher Pelke, and the

1232
00:59:36.719 --> 00:59:40.719
judge allowed Christopher's loved ones to play an AI generated

1233
00:59:40.800 --> 00:59:45.760
video of Christopher giving his own victim impact statement. So Christopher,

1234
00:59:45.800 --> 00:59:49.000
the man the victim in this case, his sister and

1235
00:59:49.119 --> 00:59:53.480
brother in law, both worked with AI and they basically

1236
00:59:53.519 --> 00:59:57.840
fed this AI the likeness and the voice of their

1237
00:59:57.960 --> 01:00:01.559
of her brother, and they created victim impact statement of

1238
01:00:01.679 --> 01:00:04.719
him addressing the courtroom, and the judge allowed it, which

1239
01:00:04.840 --> 01:00:07.280
was kind of surprising to me. Yeah, but you want

1240
01:00:07.320 --> 01:00:08.719
do you want to hear just like a few seconds

1241
01:00:08.719 --> 01:00:09.079
of it?

1242
01:00:09.480 --> 01:00:09.840
Sure?

1243
01:00:10.119 --> 01:00:10.440
Hello.

1244
01:00:11.239 --> 01:00:13.719
Just to be clear for everyone seeing this, I am

1245
01:00:13.719 --> 01:00:16.840
a version of Chris pelke recreated through AI that uses

1246
01:00:16.880 --> 01:00:19.400
my picture and my voice profile. I was able to

1247
01:00:19.400 --> 01:00:22.599
be digitally regenerated to share with you today. I would

1248
01:00:22.679 --> 01:00:26.079
like to make my own impact statement to Gabriel hork Asidas,

1249
01:00:26.360 --> 01:00:28.519
the man who shot me. It is a shame we

1250
01:00:28.599 --> 01:00:32.079
encountered each other that day in those circumstances. In another life,

1251
01:00:32.719 --> 01:00:35.679
we probably could have been friends. I believe in forgiveness

1252
01:00:35.679 --> 01:00:38.599
and in God who forgives. I always have and I

1253
01:00:38.639 --> 01:00:39.000
still do.

1254
01:00:39.840 --> 01:00:41.960
That's pretty wild, Is it is crazy? I know, I

1255
01:00:41.960 --> 01:00:43.239
don't know. How do you feel about that?

1256
01:00:43.639 --> 01:00:46.280
I don't know. I mean, I know it's not really him,

1257
01:00:46.760 --> 01:00:48.639
and I guess it's a little chilling.

1258
01:00:49.000 --> 01:00:52.159
Yeah, I don't like it. No, I just I don't

1259
01:00:52.199 --> 01:00:54.320
think it's a good idea. First of all, you're putting

1260
01:00:54.559 --> 01:00:57.400
words in your loved one's mouth that they you don't

1261
01:00:57.440 --> 01:00:59.639
know how he would have felt about that, you know.

1262
01:00:59.719 --> 01:01:03.000
And it's almost like the video that they made, he's

1263
01:01:03.079 --> 01:01:06.400
almost being very forgiving of the person who killed him.

1264
01:01:06.519 --> 01:01:08.360
A sentiment of what he said was a little odd.

1265
01:01:08.440 --> 01:01:09.920
Yeah, And I don't think you have the right to

1266
01:01:09.960 --> 01:01:12.920
assume that your loved one who was a victim would

1267
01:01:12.960 --> 01:01:15.639
be forgiving. I mean, you don't know. So anyway, I

1268
01:01:15.679 --> 01:01:18.000
think it's a little creepy and I'm actually very surprised

1269
01:01:18.039 --> 01:01:19.000
the judge allowed it.

1270
01:01:19.159 --> 01:01:21.840
Maybe the judge didn't know the content of the message.

1271
01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:25.679
I'm not sure, but there was. It's interesting too, because

1272
01:01:25.719 --> 01:01:29.079
the defense attorney for the person said that the AI

1273
01:01:29.159 --> 01:01:33.199
presentation actually creates an issue for appeal because the judge

1274
01:01:33.199 --> 01:01:36.400
allowed this, and it could be considered inflammatory to hear

1275
01:01:36.880 --> 01:01:39.599
like from the victim in their own voice and their

1276
01:01:39.639 --> 01:01:42.400
own likeness, and so it could be a Crowns for

1277
01:01:42.480 --> 01:01:46.920
appeal of the sentence. Interestingly, though, even though the victim

1278
01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:50.199
appeared to be asking for leniency for his killer, the

1279
01:01:50.280 --> 01:01:53.039
judge sentenced the killer to the maximum sentence, which was

1280
01:01:53.079 --> 01:01:54.360
ten and a half years in prison.

1281
01:01:54.639 --> 01:01:55.320
Interesting.

1282
01:01:55.559 --> 01:01:58.280
I mean, it'll be yeah, I think AI. We could

1283
01:01:58.280 --> 01:01:59.719
talk about it for a long time, but it's just

1284
01:02:00.159 --> 01:02:03.159
interesting to see where this goes and how the criminal

1285
01:02:03.280 --> 01:02:06.000
justice system uses AI. We did an episode on it

1286
01:02:06.039 --> 01:02:08.519
like two years ago, which I did a little research

1287
01:02:08.559 --> 01:02:11.280
on it, but yeah, it's a brave new world.

1288
01:02:11.480 --> 01:02:16.320
Two years AI is really kind of Yeah.

1289
01:02:15.400 --> 01:02:18.519
For sure, you're seeing like videos now that look completely

1290
01:02:18.960 --> 01:02:20.360
real that aren't real at.

1291
01:02:20.239 --> 01:02:24.280
All, not like we're celebrities or anything, but our voice

1292
01:02:24.320 --> 01:02:26.599
is out there and it does kind of make me

1293
01:02:26.719 --> 01:02:29.679
think that, you know, you could piece together Oh yeah,

1294
01:02:29.440 --> 01:02:33.079
and AI could definitely represent us and our voices and

1295
01:02:33.119 --> 01:02:34.400
our opinions totally.

1296
01:02:34.519 --> 01:02:34.639
Well.

1297
01:02:34.679 --> 01:02:36.920
We actually played around with that on an episode a

1298
01:02:36.920 --> 01:02:38.440
while ago. I think it was maybe it was one

1299
01:02:38.440 --> 01:02:41.480
of our patron episodes. Yeah, but yeah we could. We

1300
01:02:41.480 --> 01:02:43.440
can actually reproduce our own voices.

1301
01:02:43.920 --> 01:02:46.199
I forgot we did that. Yeah, it was. It was

1302
01:02:46.280 --> 01:02:48.159
kind of funny and people were like, are you guys okay?

1303
01:02:48.440 --> 01:02:50.920
I actually made of a thing I was going to

1304
01:02:50.960 --> 01:02:53.559
play at one point of your voice saying, you know what,

1305
01:02:53.719 --> 01:02:55.679
rich you're right, You're always right.

1306
01:02:57.679 --> 01:03:01.119
I'm not afraid to admit you're right when you're actually right.

1307
01:03:01.519 --> 01:03:07.000
But it's you know, if you far between but listener

1308
01:03:07.039 --> 01:03:10.000
recently said, I don't know where it was if it

1309
01:03:10.039 --> 01:03:13.280
was on Spotify, But like Tina, you really do compliment

1310
01:03:13.440 --> 01:03:16.760
rich a lot. I think someone else said that I

1311
01:03:16.880 --> 01:03:20.760
stroked your ego. Yeah, and genuinely, we try so hard

1312
01:03:20.760 --> 01:03:24.119
to be our authentic selves when we record, and I

1313
01:03:24.199 --> 01:03:26.559
really do admire you. I think you're great and I

1314
01:03:26.639 --> 01:03:29.599
think you're really smart. And it's not like you need encouragement.

1315
01:03:29.639 --> 01:03:31.440
I just think you're doing a great job. You work

1316
01:03:31.519 --> 01:03:33.960
really hard, not that I don't, but you're wearing a

1317
01:03:34.000 --> 01:03:34.679
lot of hats.

1318
01:03:34.920 --> 01:03:37.559
But I read that. I read that comment as the

1319
01:03:37.679 --> 01:03:40.320
listener thinking that I needed right, that's what I like

1320
01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:42.880
insecure or something like that. But yeah, I think we

1321
01:03:42.920 --> 01:03:44.960
try to be ourselves and I think you're great too,

1322
01:03:45.039 --> 01:03:47.920
and we both compliment each other absolutely.

1323
01:03:48.119 --> 01:03:50.960
But I think maybe I'm more forthcoming sometimes and you

1324
01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:54.280
maybe give me more encouragement, like off the air or

1325
01:03:54.320 --> 01:03:57.519
when I'm trying to say a sentence forty seven times,

1326
01:03:57.880 --> 01:04:01.960
and you never I'm not kidding listeners. He never gets

1327
01:04:02.159 --> 01:04:04.400
even a little irritated with me. Is like, it's okay,

1328
01:04:04.840 --> 01:04:07.880
just keep going, You're going to get it, and you know, yeah,

1329
01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:08.239
I try.

1330
01:04:08.880 --> 01:04:11.639
You usually do Thank you all so much for listening.

1331
01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:15.400
Please rate, review, follow and subscribe. Find us on social

1332
01:04:15.440 --> 01:04:18.679
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1333
01:04:18.800 --> 01:04:20.440
at gmail dot com.

1334
01:04:20.079 --> 01:04:23.360
And please consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash

1335
01:04:23.480 --> 01:04:27.760
Lovemrykill one tier five dollars a month for early ad

1336
01:04:27.800 --> 01:04:30.360
free access and a monthly bonus.

1337
01:04:30.039 --> 01:04:31.559
Episode until next time.

1338
01:04:31.639 --> 01:05:14.440
Don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife.

1339
01:05:00.039 --> 01:05:22.800
You know what, rich You're right. You're always right.

1340
01:05:23.360 --> 01:05:24.880
I don't know why I ever doubt you