Jennair and Mark Gerardot - Part 1

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina, and I'm rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage. It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife. And some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Good morning. My love. How are you. I'm doing well. How are you? I'm okay. It's been a little bit of a week, but I'm here. Yeah, you have had a bit of a rough week. A little bit. I pulled my back. I don't know what the right term is, but the other day I took a shower and I bent over and something popped in my back, and then it was it was bad.

0:48 I evolved. I went from an upright homo sapien to like a crow magnum man and I really could not stand out for like three days. Yeah, it was really rough. Silly be thinking that I could take a shower before warming up. I have had my fair share of back problems that I know. I know the pain of that, and it's so it's crazy, like one little move can just mess you up and you just don't. I've been working out a lot and I thought, you know, I'm in pretty good shape, but. No, maybe you've been working out too much. The universe has a funny way of humbling you, and it happens to me a lot. But I'm on the mend. You almost starve to death, which I feel really bad.

1:28 Well, I've just been really busy lately, and yesterday I actually forgot to eat lunch, which I don't think has ever happened. To me in the history of the world. No, you definitely don't forget to eat. No, And I just was so busy that I just forgot. I always joke like, if it's twelve oh one and you haven't eaten lunch, then something is dramatically wrong in the universe, even if for on vacation or whatever. It's like twelve oh one and the rest of us are always fine, but you always like, we need, we need to eat lunch. So yeah, that's that is that is crazy. It really wasn't uncomfortable unless I was trying to stand or move, but if I laid in one place, it was fine. So I did get to binge a few shows, and I did I did finish this case, so it's not all bad. Excellent our sweety.

2:08 Pie listener, Ann, who sent us a snack a couple of weeks ago, she sent us the Ntonman Snacks snackcakes, which we really enjoyed. The whole family loved those. Yeah, But she sent us some brownies. Oh my goodness. They're from Greystone Bakery and there's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, eight brownies and there. It's really clever packaging because would you think that, you know, eight brownies would fit in there. No, they're like stored vertically like a row. So I'm not sure we can't try eight brownies? Do you want to just both? Just pick me for yourself. I definitely will eat them later. I brought you some lovely strawberries excellent. Do you want to just pick one of these brown I can? I can share Chocolate fudge Brownie, double chocolate chip Blondie, Vegan cinnamon Roll Blondie, Vegan fudge Brownie, Cherry chocolate Brownie, Snickerdoodle Blondie, Espresso roast brownie. Rich will not be trying that one, and Vegan Birthday cake Blondie.

3:04 So which one sounds good? Whatever? The first one was like kind of a classic brownie. It sounds like, so I think we should it do that. Okay, we'll be right back. Let me read to you a little bit about Greystone Bakery. Our founder, Bernie Glassman was a Zen Buddhist teacher who opened Stone Bakery in nineteen eighty two. His mission was to use social action and compassion to hire people at the bakery with no judgment about their past, to treat them with dignity, and to help them realize their potential. To this day, the mission lives on, and our dedicated bakers at Greystone Bakery produced delicious brownies and blondies made from simple ingredients. Each brownie has this sweet story baked right in, and that's why we say eat brownies, changed lives.

3:53 Love it. It's very coole and very good brownies too. Did the brownie taste familiar at all? Uh? I mean tasted like a brownie? Well you've had these brownies before because they are in Ben and Jerry's ice cream. Oh wow? Yeah? Yeah, they were very good brownies. And I love that they have a lovely mission statement. Yeah, that's very cool, so I will give them a ten out of ten. Same here. Well, I'm an idiot. I realize that I have been saying Greystone raw It's not Greystone, it's Grayston without an e at the end. But I think these would make a great birthday treat for a friend or family member. Yeah, for sure. If you would like to order them, go to shop dot Grayston dot org. G R E Y S. T O N dot org. We have a Google doc where we put all of the cases that people recommend, and sometimes I don't cross check that, and a couple of times recently I think I've screwed up and either thought that I found the case on my own, or I said the wrong person, or multiple people have recommended a case.

4:51 I think what happens sometimes is like if someone recommends jack Smith Jacksmith's case, and Sarah has recommended it, I and someone else has recommended it, I get to put their name in the document. So I apologize for that. Today's case was recommended by Amy, a friend of the pod. Thank you for watching me. I mean, I think multiple people might have recommended it, but definitely Amy recommended it, and I think it was a while ago. This episode does contain talk of suicide, so please listen with care. This episode is research and written by Owen with Sorik. He noted that many of the details in this episode are sourced from Mark Girardo's self published book Irreparable, published in twenty twenty. While most of the book seems reliable, it was written from Mark's perspective because Jenair and Meredith are both dead and aren't able to tell their side of the story, we caution the listener to be aware of Mark's bias, whether implicit or unintended. While jen Air left behind diaries both written and video, we do know that in her final month she was not well emotionally or physically. The Bad Bad Thing Podcast season one was also a main source for these episodes, and we encourage you to listen to that.

6:00 I also read the book and listened to the podcast, and the podcast is really well done, and I highly encourage you to listen to it. A lot of Jennyer's journals are read by an actor, and a lot of her video diaries are played. We're not including any of that in our podcast, but they're very raw and emotional, but I recommend that you listen to that podcast again. It's called Bad Bad Thing Podcast. On April twenty third, twenty eighteen, in a quiet duplex set away from the road and the upscale Mainline neighborhood of Philadelphia, forty seven year old Jennia Girardo was waiting, hidden in the shadows, wearing a black wig, black clothes, and carrying a three point fifty seven revolver. She'd let herself in hours earlier, using knowledge she'd gathered from weeks of surveillance. She knew where Meredith lived, she knew her schedule. She knew she'd be alone. Jennayre had been a loyal wife for twenty four years, but somewhere along the way, her husband Mark had fallen in love with another woman, his new boss, Meredith Chapman, ambitious, beautiful, brenette, athletic younger. Jennaire was devastated, and when Mark finally admitted the truth, it shattered her.

7:09 She saw Meredith not just as the other woman, but as the reason her life had unraveled, the reason her marriage had failed, the reason she no longer recognized herself. So she made a plan. When Meredith walked through the front door that evening, she had no idea her boyfriend's wife was already inside, although maybe she should have. After months of warning signs that pointed to Jennaire's instability. One gunshot rang out, and moments later another and less than a minute. Two lives were gone, one stolen, one surrendered. But the story that led to this moment is anything but simple. This case is a little different because we have Mark's book and a lot of Jennaire's writing. It's more psychological and we learn more about their marriage and the inner workings of their marriage.

7:55 Okay. Mark Gerardo was raised in a strict Catholic household in northeastern Indiana. Mark was the tenth of eleven children. He never missed a day of school in his entire life. Even when he was sick, his parents forced him to go to school. Mark was a straight A student and self described nerd. He didn't receive much attention or love from his family. In fact, in his book, he mentioned that he had never once told any of his siblings that he loved them, and they had never shown any sort of physical affection to each other. The only time he could remember any physical demonstration of affection was when he was much older and his brother, Ernie, whose childhood hero, was bed ridden dying of lung cancer. Ernie planted a kiss on Mark's cheek and died shortly after. Mark hasn't shed much light on the details of his childhood. It doesn't seem like he enjoys thinking or talking about it.

8:45 The Gerardos ran a tight ship. Mark's parents were shy and insulated themselves from the outside world. They were extremely controlling of their children. Mark wasn't allowed to socialize with friends much outside of school. He had to fight constantly for even the smallest of freedom. A core memory of Marx from around puberty characterized his understanding of sex. For a long time. He was curious about his feelings, as any adolescent would be, and he wasn't being taught about what was happening to his body. So he flipped through a book his parents' own titled Sex and Your Body. As he looked at the diagrams inside, his mother walked into the living room and angrily told him to put it back. What are you sick? She said, Why would they even have that book, which sounds like it's meant for adolescents if they didn't want their kids to.

9:30 Look at it exactly. While by the time Mark met Jenneyre, he was naive and inexperienced, Jennyre seemed entirely the opposite to him. Jenneyre Michelle was born to Becky and Earl Cox in December nineteen seventy in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Like Mark, she had a strained relationship with her family. She had one sister, Jill, who she did not get along with. The Coxes sent their daughters to private Catholic school, strain on their finances, but they wanted to give them the best possible education. Jeneyre resented being raised in the church, believing her mother was a hypocrite, a lapsed Catholic at best. Jenniere often fought with her ex marine father, who self medicated with alcohol to cope with his PTSD from the Vietnam War. When he drank, he was cruel, shaming jennyar and calling her names deeply damaging to her. As she struggled to find her place in the world. Adapting to her environment, she developed a survival strategy. Hit back harder, go scorched earth, call her father even worse names, hurt him more than he could hurt her. These fights became training days for her future marriage. Eventually, at seventeen, the conflict escalated to the point that she moved in with her grandparents. Jennere had both a rebellious streek and an indefatigable spirit that was hard to say. She wore a leather jacket, blasted heavy metal music, and teased her hair high.

10:52 Her interests were as varied as her personality. She was a cheerleader who also loved acting, singing, and getting lost in her day dreams. Even as a teenager, Jennyre was outspoken to a fault, fiercely independent, and a bold freethinker who was known for her unmatched intensity, raisen, confident, and unafraid. She even posed nude for an art class in college, a decision that perfectly embodied her fearless spirit. I have a random question that I'm sure you don't know the answer to, but do you have any background on her name? Because to me, jen Eyre, it sounds like an appliance, kind of like it's a very strange. Oh it's not even that is the is it? Clients? Yeah, we had a Jen Ayre sot a couple of them. It sounded so familiar, like why would someone name I've never heard that name before.

11:36 I mean, it's a unique name, it sure is. Mark Gerardo first set eyes on Jenaire Cox in nineteen eighty six and Fort Wayne, Indiana, when he stepped into a taco bell who hasn't fallen in love in a taco bet. I've fallen in love many times in taco bell. He was eighteen and she was sixteen. Jennaire worked behind the counter and took Mark's order. He was mesberized by her ice, blue eyes and confident smile, as he liked to tell people, you're later. She made a brown polyester uniform look really good, But eighteen year old Mark didn't have game back then. He awkwardly blurted out his order while his friend openly flirted with Jennayre. She and Mark went to different high schools, so for the next several years, Mark admired her from afar when he saw her around town at the mall or at football games. That is until a fateful day four years later after their first meeting in nineteen ninety, when their paths crossed again at a Seer's Automotive Center. By this time, they were both in college, Jennaire at Indiana University Fort Wayne, majoring in broadcast media, while Mark was studying art and design nearby University of Saint Francis, a private Catholic school. While they waited for their car repairs, Jennaire recognized Mark and struck up a conversation. Although years had passed since their first meeting, Mark remained captivated and intimidated by Jennayre's beauty and confident presence.

12:55 Jannaire worked at the mall, and Mark, clearly interested in her, would often visit. She grew irritated when he couldn't muster the courage to ask her out. Eventually, she burst out, quote, are you going to ask me out? Or what? Mark wanted to but he had a girlfriend at the time. When he had admitted this to Jennyire, she immediately backed off and said they shouldn't talk anymore. Mark dumped his girlfriend soon after. He was besotted with jen Eyre. She was so different from any other girl he'd ever known, But. Mark and Jenneyre were polar opposites. Jen Eyre was outgoing, passionate, and boldly carved her own path. She was interesting in a way that Mark was not. Mark knew she was out of his league in every sense. Mark was shy, laid back, deferential, risk averse. He tried to match jenn Eyre and project the image of a cool guy. He bought a leather jacket, cut his hair into a mullet, just totally the definition of a cool guy and drove a sports car, but he never really embodied cool the way that she did. He admired her effortless confidence and magnetic presence. It came to her so naturally. When he was with her, he felt more alive, more intriguing, like a more vivid version of himself. As enthralled as Mark was with Jeneire, not everyone was so happy for the couple. Once, when Mark and Jenneyre were snuggling on the couch at his parents' house, his father walked in, saw the two and loudly exclaimed to Jenneyre that it was time to go home. Mark walked Jennare to her car, and when he returned, his mother hissed, never bring that hussy into

14:25 the house again. Woof. Mark packed his bags and left the house that same night and never went back. Mark's relationship with his parents had been contentious for a long time, and he felt empowered to finally leave their judgment behind when they became a couple. In earnest, jennayre coerced Mark out of his sexual shell, so to speak. He would often shrink away, intimidated, still thinking of sex in the terms his strict Catholic parents had modeled. Jeneyre told him Mark, sex is supposed to be fun, and he did have a lot of fun with Jenayre. They quickly fell in love, but the relationship was intense, sometimes too intense. Mark had never felt this way before, and the deep feelings scared him.

15:06 He wasn't sure he was ready for the lifelong commitment he could feel Jenneyre wanted. When Mark met a girl named Jamie, a film student in one of his classes, he was attracted to her carefree, bubbly personality and the ease of their conversations. He told Jeneyre he wanted to explore other options to see other people before fully committing to her. She was heartbroken. Jeneyre didn't have many friends. Most people simply annoyed her. Her world had revolved around Mark. Mark and Jamie dated for a few months before she ghosted him for a tennis pro at her club. He was crushed and now realized the pain that he had caused Jeneire and knew that he needed to win her back, so Mark slithered back to her. Jeneyre was working at the Seers call center at the Mall at the time when she got off work, Mark was sitting on the bumper of her red Pontiac one thousand. She frowned when she saw him. What are you doing here, she asked, angrily, hoping for forgiveness. Being a complete idiot, jen Ayre melted into Mark's arms. He promised to never hurt her again.

16:05 They quickly recoupled with a new intensity. When friends of Mark were meeting jen Ayre for the first time, he would try to warn them that she could be challenging and was slow to warm to people. She's an acquired taste, he would say, So. You say that to people before they meet me. Of course I don't say that. Why would you think that? In some ways I kind of identify with Jennaire. I think I say inappropriate things all the time, maybe once in a while. Well remember a listener recently said they complimented your patients, and it made me left because you are exceedingly patient. I think most of our listeners, and myself included, think that you're lovely. Mark's friends were cautious around jen Eyre, and for good reason. They saw her as overly critical, controlling, and fiercely possessive. She disliked when Mark went out without her, yet often refused to join if anyone she didn't approve of was in, and there were many that she didn't approve of. Unlike his family, whose concerns he could more easily brush aside their observations stuck with him, Jeneyre didn't have a wide circle of friends herself. Her blunt honesty could come off as abrasive, and she often insisted that she didn't need anyone else. All her focus, all her energy was centered on Mark, and she expected that same intensity in return. Mark's friends compared Jenair to Glenn Close's character in Fatal Attraction, who that is not a good comparison.

17:31 His best friend, Mike Hartman, who would later serve as his best man, begged him to break off the relationship. Mike believed it was a mistake, convinced that jen Eyre was bad for him, but Mark couldn't see the problems in their relationship. Given the way he was raised, he assumed this was just how relationships worked. He was used to being bossed around. After he graduated from college. In the slack job market, it took Mark a year to find a job. He finally landed in a position as a graphic designer at a magazine in Indianapolis. Torn from Jenayre, working a new job in a new city two hours from Fort Wayne caused Mark to cling to her, and he soon found himself unable to live without her. He bought a cheap ring and proposed Mark's friends and family were not supportive of his decision. We'll be back after a break.

18:26 Mark twenty five and Jenere twenty three were married in October nineteen ninety three. Their first dance was to the song It Had to Be You. While not everyone had blessed their union, and was obvious to all who attended the wedding that they were a beautiful couple deeply in love. Jenne Air waitressed while she finished up her degree at Butler University. Their first apartment together was run down, and their only piece of furniture was a twin bed, which suited them just fine. Do you imagine sleeping in a twin bed again as a couple? No, I can't. Didn't we somewhere? He did so proudly. Early on, they'd crawl in together at night, watch movies and shut out the rest of the world. They were young, attractive, and intelligent, and they knew it they'd catched people's envious sidelong glances. They were both going places and together they were unstoppable. On the outside, they seemed like the picture perfect couple. They worked hard, saving every penny until in nineteen ninety eight they could finally afford a home. It was small and run down, but in a good location.

19:25 They couldn't believe they were homeowners. Over the next seven years, they pour their energy into fixing it up. Working side by side, they flipped the entire house and learned along the way how to cut and install tile, de plumbing, landscaping, and more. It was a major undertaking, but in many ways it was exactly what they needed, a shared goal, something they could build together. When friends visited, they wondered how the laid back Mark could be married to jen Eyre. They found her to be loud and manic. What they didn't know is that often Mark couldn't stand it. There were a few anecdotes and marks, which, while they're one sited, give a good sense of what living with Jennayre may have been. Like.

20:05 Mark's older brother had been working as a groundskeeper on a golf course. The pesticides the chorus had been using severely damaged his kidneys. There was a family meeting with a doctor who was explaining how one of the ten siblings could be an ideal candidate for kidney donation. Jennayre butted in in front of the whole family, saying she would not let Mark do it. Quote what if he dies? What do I get? I mean, look, if he has to do this, I'm at least going to have his sperm frozen. Before Mark cut her off. It became the subject of much family gossip. Ah, I can imagine that's pretty that's pretty harsh. In the aftermath of the death of Mark's father, Jenneyer behaved rather poorly again in regards to the distribution of his belongings. She encouraged Mark to adopt a smash and grab approach, snatching everything he wanted instead of diplomatically divvying up the property. Jennayre also forged Mark's signature on a letter to the Gerardo family's estate life, going around not just his back, but also the back of Mark's older sister, Jeanie, who was agreed upon as the executor of the estate.

21:08 This was seen as a major faux pas, and again caused a lot of drama in the family. Jennaire was a pacifist and a big animal lover. She preferred animals to most people. Once, during a walk around the neighborhood, Jennaire and Mark spotted a distressed squirrel and a trap in a neighbour's yard. That night, Jennaire dressed up all in black, biked down to the neighbor's house, freed the squirrel, and stole the trap. When Mark woke up the next morning, he found the empty trap in their garage. The incident would be addressed in the next HOA meeting, but Jennaire and Mark giggled knowing that they had saved the animal from its fate. Well as bad as Jenaire sounds in a lot of this story so far, that kind of redeems her a little bit.

21:49 She really really really loved animals. Yeah. Soon Jannaire and Mark's careers took off. She got a good job working as a marketing coordinator for a top national real estate firm, traveling all over the country on the company jet setting up industry trade shows. Mark started his own design firm, Gerardo In Company. When jenneyre overstepped to her authority by arranging photo shoots with clients without her boss's approval. She was fired. Mark told her she could come work for him. He and his team had more work than they could handle. Initially, Jennaire's organization and attention to detail was welcome in an office full of chaotic creatives, but Mark failed to clearly define her role, and before he knew it, she had steamrolled everyone in the office and taken over.

22:31 I had a funny feeling that's where that was going to go. Business was good, but Mark's team was miserable and felt disempowered. When his employees came to him six months into the new arrangement threatening to quit, he didn't know what to do. Jennaire had made Girardo in company more successful. In the end, jennayir stayed and a couple of employees left. It had always been part of Jennair and Mark's plan to have children. It was the next logical step in their path. That's what you do right once you get married and you own a house. They'd even picked names Jackson for a boy. The name Jack Girardo thrilled them, and Audrey after Jennare's grandmother if they had a girl. But the right time never came and Jenayre had a deep seated fear that she would be a bad mother, that her difficult childhood would echo through her own children. Mark wasn't too concerned either way, so it just never happened. They adopted two Golden Retrievers and a cat in place of kids. They poured all of their love into their pets, and they found that very fulfilling. Jennaire's parents were supportive of their decision not to have children and affectionately referred to their Goldens as their grand dogs.

23:37 In two thousand and five, riding high on the success of their company, the Girardos purchased their dream home, a six thousand square foot behemoth in an affluent Carmel, Indiana neighborhood, complete with two jenare ovens. Carmel, known as the roundabout capital of the World, is also one of the wealthiest cities in the state. I don't think i'd want to live there. There are over one hundred and fifty rounds. Well, some roundabouts are easypasy, yeah, but sometimes they get super complicated when they're like one after another after another. Yeah, they get like over engineered and gets super like confusing. Something you have to be in the right lane, and if you're not in the right lane, then you have to end up on the highway. Yeah. The Gerardo's spent more than they should have on the house and then sunk another one hundred thousand dollars into it, once again self renovating the property. But by two thousand and nine, when the global recession hit, business dried up, and like so many others, the Gerardo's found their home underwater. Mark was forced to shutter his office and lay off his remaining employees. He moved operations to his home's basement and continued working with jen Ayre on the few remaining campaigns. With the stress of the financial crisis and too much time working together, their fights reached a new level. As the years passed. The very traits that had once drawn them to each other now became constant sources of irritation. Their differences no longer felt exciting.

24:56 They had become obstacles, fueling relentless bickering. Where mar Work had once admired Jennair's passion, he now saw her as loud and overbearing. He began to wonder if she was intentionally provoking arguments, and while Jenneyre had once appreciated Mark's quiet, deferential nature, she now saw him as hopelessly conflict averse, unable to confront uncomfortable topics like their finances or her increasingly harsh criticism of him. Working together, and the mounting financial pressures both personal and business, intensified the strain on their already fragile marriage. Ordinary conversations escalated quickly into heated arguments. Fights became so frequent and intense they started spilling into public places, restaurants, stores, situations that were deeply uncomfortable for Mark.

25:43 Once Jenaire even threw a glass of wine in his face. Mark, a private person by nature, often walked away from these scenes in an effort to diffuse the fight. Another recurring source of tension was Mark's lack of focus. Jenayre frequently accused him of having adhd from frustrated by how often he forgot things like picking up groceries on the way home. It became such an issue that Mark eventually started taking adderall but he stopped after deciding he didn't like how it made him feel. Mark argued in his book that he was not conflict of verse, but Jenayir thrived on it. She seemed to love the public displays of acrimony. He refused to engage because quote, nobody ever won an argument with her, given her contemptuous relationship with her father. This was how Jeneyre had learned to navigate relationships to make herself heard. This was simply how she solved problems. Sometimes you had to fight things out. To Jenneyre, Mark's passivity was childish. She felt like she was becoming his mother, doing everything for him. This was a point she'd repeat over and over in her personal life to friends and to Mark's face. He's turning me into his mother, to which Mark would reply, then stop being my mother, and he meant it. He was starting to think of her as a helicopter wife. Jennaire's tendency to hold on to things stacks of old magazine means empty wine bottles, she insisted would be repurposed someday became a constant source of tension in their marriage. For her, these items held memories, possibilities, a sense of control. For Mark, they were just clutter.

27:12 He leaned toward minimalism, toward order when he threw things out, thinking he was doing them both a favor. Jennyre saw it as a betrayal. She would rage, sometimes climbing into the dumpster to rescue what he had discarded. Furious. It was a standoff between two worldviews, one rooted in sentimentality, the other in simplicity. The uneasy compromise they reached was to rent a storage unit, a kind of purgatory for their shared LIFs detritus. It was a solution that kept the peace, at least on the surface, but after Jennaire's death, that fragile balance was shattered. A semi truck pulled up outside Mark's apartment, filled floor to ceiling with the remnants of her life, a physical embodiment of everything unresolved between them.

27:55 So you said you related a little bit to jen Ayre, But in this case, I think we're pretty much on the opposite side of things, because do you remember the fight we got into once over my CD collection? It was not just CD Listen to me, she's getting ramped up. It wasn't just CDs. It was like DVDs and yeah, and my defense, have you opened that box box of DVDs and like? And I think it was before we moved to this house. Yeah, it was when we were having a garage sale at our old house getting ready to move to this house, and you get really mad that I didn't. I wanted to save some of my CDs, even though I never listened to them. Really mad. It might be an over exaggeration. Yeah, I had my things too. I used to kind of be a magazine not a hoarder. I had like stacks of magazines because I used to subscribe to magazines with the best of intentions, but I never read them, so they kind of stacked up. It was very liberating when I was like, I'm never gonna subscribe to another magazine again, and I'm gonna I'm gonna think I donated them to the library actually, because they were like kind of good magazine. Yeah, America's Test Kitchen, and you know, like those which you don't really want to throw away, right.

29:05 I think I am a little more prone to like just sentimentally holding onto things even though I'll never probably look at them again. But I mean, I don't want to go do too deep here. But psychologically I understand that because your parents are both deceased and you're kind of a keeper of memories. Have I never said that to you. I think I realized that during our move that It's unfair of me to ask you to get rid of some things because you know they're they're importants, your memories of your family. I never thought of it that way. You're really brilliant. I do have a degree in technology. I'm very sentimental, however, about our kids things, and like their artwork and. Their thinks, like some of the toys. Toys. We have a lot of toys. It'll be sad if we are able to have a never image. That's on with the show, okay.

29:52 The fractures in their marriage had been forming for years, hairline at first, then widening with every unspoken resentment, every unresolve. By the time Mark boarded a plane to Berlin in two thousand and four with his best friend Mike, the foundation was already buckling. Mark was bone tired of putting jen Eyre's emotional needs before his. The trip was supposed to be business, a trade show, a few meetings, but it quickly turned into an escape. They drank and laughed, letting the weight of the world slip from their shoulders for a night. That night, Mark met a beautiful Austrian woman with an easy smile, alcohol flowing, He thought how nice it was to flirt with a woman without years of baggage parked between them. Living in the moment, Mark didn't think about Jeneyre or the years they had spent trying to hold things together. He woke the next morning in a stranger's bed, feeling ashamed, but with a resolve that Jenayre could never find out about his slip up.

30:45 He was stunned and irked that Mike hadn't stopped him from crossing the line. That's kind of blame your friend for that. Can't believe you let me sleep with it. But it wasn't Mike's responsibility to remind Mark that he was married, and he enjoyed seeing his friend unburdened. Mark had looked genuinely happy in the presence of this other woman, happier than he'd ever seen him with jen Eyre, and he wanted him to have one care free night. What Mark didn't know was that jen Eyre had been secretly reading his emails for years. So when he returned from Berlin, unaware that his betrayal had already been discovered, she was waiting with quiet rage and a growing need for answers. She wanted to know everything. Posing as Mark, she sent a follow up email to Mike, hoping to fill in the blanks. It was a violation, yes, but one that came from deep hurt and desperation.

31:35 I mean, that's that's pretty bad. That is pretty bad. Have you ever read any of my emails or texts? No, I don't know. If you did, anyone admit to it. Oh, I would do. I think we're both super I like to think we're super respectful of each other's privacy in that regard. Yeah, for sure. Despite the pain of Mark's infidelity, Jenaire wasn't ready to walk away. She was devastated, but not done. If they could confront this together, if they could repair what was broken, maybe they still had a chance. Her condition was clear, they would go to couples therapy together. They enrolled in a five day marriage boot camp retreat, hoping to reset to rebuild, but some damage was harder to undo. Jenaire had always had a strained relationship with Mike, but after Berlin it was now open hostility. She couldn't bring herself to blame Mark fully, so she blamed Mike instead.

32:27 Poor Mike, he's getting blamed from Mark, He's getting blamed from Jeneire. In her eyes, he had stood by and watched it happen. He had allowed it. The wedge between them was permanent, and slowly Mark saw less and less of his best friend. For a while, things settled into a kind of uneasy normal. They returned to their routines and tried to move forward. But there were more storms on the horizon for Jenere and Mark, much stronger storms. The marriage boot Camp had helped, at least for a while. It gave them tools, communication strategies, ways to manage conflict, and for a time it seemed like they might be on steadier ground. But just as they were trying to rebuild, another blow hit. Their client based dried up. In a shaky economy, few were willing to spend on packaging design, and the dependable work they once relied on began to vanish.

33:16 Now working together full time, they had no space, no physical or emotional distance between them. Work stress bled into home life, and home stress followed them to work. There was no escape. Tensions simmered constantly, and arguments became a daily occurrence. Finances, already a sensitive issue, grew even more strained. Jannaire had always managed the money she thought Mark spent frivolously and kept tight control over their accounts. She refused to share passwords, and any time he asked, it triggered a fight. She saw it as a lack of trust. He saw it as a lack of transparency. Janna and Mark were forced to take on debt to keep their business afloat, but Mark had no clear picture of their debt to earnings ratio.

34:01 Do anything. That's pretty problematic. She would never share the financial information with him. Yeah, that really is problematic. As a married couple, you should pretty much both have complete transparency. Unless you had already had the agreement that we're going to keep our finances right a separate Things had started to unravel again. The tension was constant, the arguments relentless. But then a lifeline appeared, a job offer from Mark from Up and Up, a branding agency that worked primarily with colleges and universities. It meant starting over, leaving behind Gerardo and Company, their oversized, expensive home and the life that they'd build in Indiana. Mark hesitated, unsure how jen Eyer would take the news, but to his surprise, she was thrilled. A clean slate was exactly what she wanted.

34:48 The stressors that had weighed on them so heavily work, money, the same old routines would finally be behind them. So they took the leap. They sold their house, parted with many of their belongings, and said goodbye to the only place that they'd ever called home, Indiana. It was a chance to simplify, to reset. Both had spent their entire lives in Indiana, and South Carolina offered something that they hadn't felt in a long time, hope. They were still grieving the loss of their beloved golden retriever Mesa when they adopted two new goldens, Huckleberry and Abbey. The dogs brought warmth and energy back into their lives, and slowly they began to feel like a family again. With the weight of the recessions still lingering, they made the conscious decision to live simply. No big new house, no big purchases, just time, space and the opportunity to breathe. Mark would later describe this period as a renaissance in their marriage.

35:43 They explored new places, found new routines, and walked their dogs along unfamiliar trails, and somewhere in the quiet and the calm, Mark found himself falling in love with Jennaire all over again. Jannaire found work at an industrial valve manufacturing facility called Circle Instrumentation. It wasn't her dream job, but it paid the bills. However, after five years, she was laid off during a restructuring. It was a devastating blow to Jannaire. She took the firing exceptionally hard. It was the impetus of her life's downward spiral. She felt aimless, even pathetic, hopeless. She no longer recognized her reflection in the mirror. She felt old and unattractive, like she had nothing else to give. Jennier struggled to find a new job, and then her health began to decline. She developed chronic abdominal pain and was eventually diagnosed with fibroid tumors that would later require surgery. To make things worse, every time Mark gently suggested Jannaire consider a new career path or go back to school, she didn't hear support, she heard criticism, felt like he was belittling her, and the distance between them quietly grew. Jenneire around this time is I think she's forty six, and you know that's a hard time at a woman's life just kind of start like, you know, like I said, you don't really recognize yourself in the mirror.

37:03 You start aging. But Jenaire was still like a beautiful woman, and his book mark really made me mad. He sounded really unsupportive during this time because he was like, I mean, yeah, she's forty six, how is she going to find a job? He kind of made it sound like it was impossible for a woman at that age to read, you know, to find a new job. Yeah, because she'd be judged for her age. You interview a lot of people. Would you ever look at a woman, even at fifty and say, oh, she's unhiable, she's too old for this position? Absolutely not. After a year, jen Ayre took a job she saw is beneath her as a cashier with a public supermarket chain, But retail work made her even more depressed, and her depression became their depression. The job only lasted a few weeks before a new opportunity came Mark's way, and soon Jeneyre would be so consumed by a new project she wouldn't have time to worry about finding a new job.

37:57 We'll be back After a break. Mark began looking for a new job away from South Carolina, which, after six years, never quite felt like home. He shot off a few resumes for job opportunities in other parts of the country, where he and Jennayre thought might be nice to live. Years earlier, they had taken a trip to Denver and had fallen in love with the area. They loved the hiking and the food scene. It had been in the back of their heads for years that if an opportunity presented itself, they would jump for a chance to live there. Mark had several interviews with a Denver based company and felt sure that he would get a job offer after they flew him out for an interview.

38:40 A move to Colorado would save them, but when he received a rejection email, both he and Jennyre were crushed. Mark continued to look for work, casting a wider net. When he found a job posting in the marketing department at the University of Delaware, he decided to apply, even though he had never set foot in the state before. Shortly after some admitting his resume, he received an email from a bright young woman named Meredith Sullivan Chapman who was interested in learning more about him. Meredith Lynn Sullivan was born on January thirty first, nineteen eighty five, in Newark, Delaware. For her entire brief life, she was active and ambitious, drawn to dance, gymnastics, lacrosse, tennis, and track, but her passion was cheerleading. She even traveled to China to teach cheerleading.

39:26 Meredith was a member of the National Honor Society and active in student government. When it was time to pick a college, she chose the University of Delaware, a Division I school, to be part of the Blue Hen cheerleading team. Meredith had an impressive resume, especially for someone just thirty three years old. She had served as press secretary for a congressman and worked at Philadelphia public TV station WHYY as a producer and social media manager. In two thousand and nine, she helped create an Emmy nominated documentary about Joe Biden. By twenty sixteen, at just thirty, she made a bold leap into politics and ran for Delaware's eighth District Senate seat. Though her campaign was ultimately unsuccessful, she lost by just seven hundred and forty seven votes. Meredith was very conscious of her image. She branded herself both professionally and personally. Her Instagram bio said it all quote creative, loving, fun, energetic, chopaholic, shoe addict, beach girl, convertible lover, fitness enthusiast, hashtag always the girl in green.

40:30 Wait, what does your social media. I don't think it says much. I'm not really big on social media these days. You're not branding yourself? No? Probably not. The hashtag was a signature of sorts for Meredith. She loved the color green and often incorporated the color into her outfits. At four foot eleven, most would call her short, but she branded this too and called herself concentrated awesome. I like that, but polished appearances don't always reflect the truth of what is going on behind closed doors. Meredith's nine year marriage to Luke Chapman, a New York City councilman and financial adviser, was little more than a facade. Their paths rarely crossed. Their careers were more important than their marriage, which had become more of a performance than a partnership. Broad smiles at family gatherings or media events and carefully curated social media posts all masking the distance between them. Behind the scenes, intimacy had long faded. Their marriage was a sham Mark Girardo met Meredith in October twenty seventeen. She was running the marketing department at the University of Delaware, where she also taught digital marketing and social media strategy as an adjunct professor. She was the young, cool professor who looked like and spoke like a LinkedIn influencer.

41:48 When Mark first sat down across from Meredith during a job interview, his first instinct was apprehension. Could he report to someone fifteen years younger than him? Would his ego allow for that? What could he learn from her? But his concerns were quickly quashed. He was dumb struck by Meredith. He found her drive and her power intoxicating and attractive. Minutes into the interview, he was confident he wanted to work with her. He got his wish. A formal offer for the role of creative director at the University of Delaware was sent his way soon after the interview. Mark was excited about the job, and Jenayir was open to it, but she also expressed hesitation. She had really had her heart set on Denver. You sure, she asked Mark before he accepted the job formally. You've never managed a team this size before. I don't think you can handle it.

42:35 You don't want to wait for something better? What about Denver? Mark was sure he wanted the job. He thought he and Meredith would be a dream team with her ambition and his skill set. So remember this story is told largely from Mark's perspective, and that whole Well, you've never managed to team this size. Are you sure you can handle it? I thought that was I can't imagine saying that to your spouse. Yeah, a little bit odd. Mark moved ahead to Wilmington, Delaware to start the job in November twenty seventeen, while Jenayre hung back in South Carolina to tie up all the loose ends and find somebody to take over their lease. He rented a furnished apartment. The plan was for Jenair to join him in forty five days, right before Christmas.

43:18 That left Mark all alone in a new environment, living as a bachelor for the first time in decades, working with an attractive, vivacious, younger woman. On top of everything else, Mark was going through a bit of a midlife crisis. He kept thinking about his wife and their marriage, which often frustrated him, wondering is this really it? There's nothing new to look forward to in my life. What could go wrong in this situation? Yeah, I can't imagine. Meredith invited Mark out for a drink after his first week on the job to see how he was settling in. The conversation quickly turned personal. Mark opened up in a way that even surprised himself. He admitted to Meredith that he had a quote professional crush on her. She laughed and said, one hundred percent, that's exactly how I feel.

44:03 Okay, have you ever had a professional crush? And if you did, I'd kill her. Yes, And if I did, I would never say that to anybody. Telling that to your boss over drinks is terrible, terrible idea. And one job, one week, that's really not good. It's so unprofessional. Yeah, completely, And for her to respond that way too, that that's one hundred percent exactly how I feel, that's also completely unprofessional. I was outraged by this moment. In the book, Mark and Meredith talked for hours. He told her about the loss of his parents and the recent loss of his brother, his relationship with jen Eyre, and how he'd grown exasperated with her. The two found they both had quite a lot in common. They were both fiscal conservatives. They were both pro choice, loved red wine, Joe Biden, and hated bananas. That's a that's a really point to Yeah that first of all, who hates bananas?

44:58 And second that's really not a great point to lay a foundation for a relationship on. But okay, and they were both frustrated in their marriages and wanted something more, something deeper. They made a spreadsheet of all the things they had in common and found very few differences. Because when you start your little romance, you're not looking for differences. Just making a spreadsheet. That's just that real. Soon after, Mark was driving back to the office after an off site meeting and stopped at a wah Wah gas station. Remembering that Meredith loved the snacks and sandwiches available there, he sent her a text message, what can I get you from wah Wah?

45:39 What? Seriously? What are you doing at wah Wah? I needed to get gas? What can I get you for lunch? That's so nice of you? I love some fruit? Okay? Can you be more specific? Anything but bananas? I can't stand bananas. Are you messing with me? I must have already told. You told me? What seriously? I absolutely hate bananas. They are my kryptonite. That's bananas. Oh my god. I know a lot of people don't like bananas, and it's okay. I just happened to. I eat one almost every day, but I know a lot of people hate them. I think it's a texture thing usually okay, but it's okay. The two spent the next couple of weeks growing closer, hanging out more and more often working out together, going for meals which they could pass off as business meetings.

46:28 Mark loved how free Meredith was with her compliments. Jenayre never gave him praise. It wasn't long before they went on a proper date. Mark was dining out alone when he received a text message. Where are you. I'm at dinner with whom myself. Hashtag so invite me. They kissed for the first time after that dinner. Later, Mark was hit with a wave of guilt and panic. He told Meredith that he quote couldn't do this to Jennair. He backed off a little bit after that, though, the attraction was still there. To fly back to South Carolina so he and Jenneire could put down one of their golden retrievers, Abby, who had become very sick. Jennia noticed that Mark was talking NonStop about his new boss and became suspicious. Mark denied having an affair. Jenneia told him just don't fall in love with her, but it was too late. Not too long after, Mark flew to Denver for another job interview.

47:23 Jennaire was much more excited about this prospect than Mark's job at the University of Delaware. She loved the idea of living in the mountains. She told him, quote, don't screw this up on purpose because you just don't want it. This is where we want to be. But during the interview, Mark had an epiphany and realized that he didn't want the job or to move to Colorado. All he wanted was to be with Meredith. Unbeknownst to Mark, Meredith had also applied for a new job at Villanova University. She wanted to eliminate any barriers that might prevent a future with Mark. Before he flew back to Delaware, he sent mayor At the following text three things I know One you were my hero. Two I would take a bullet for you. Three no more lines.

48:10 No more lines? What does that mean? I think he may have meant that he wanted to be honest with her and their future and what they wanted from each other. I think they had kind of because they're both married. I think they had been playing kind of this game, like what are we? You know, we're just coworkers who like to flirt and we both hate bananas and you know, all that kind of thing. Yeah, that makes sense. He drove straight back to his office at the university after he landed. Meredith had decorated his office for Christmas with a red stocking, his name puffy and gold glitter. On his desk. She placed a Charlie Brown Christmas tree and next to it a coffee mug with an inscription hashtag so invite me. He immediately texted back, hashtag heartstrings.

48:55 I'm sorry to think that these two don't know how hashtags work. They just love hashtags. Owen, who helped write this episode, leaves funny comments sometimes, and his comment was, if I may editorialize here, having a mug with a corny hashtag made for your extra marital affair is such a specific type of weird and gross. Yeah, because it is. Yeah. So Mark started envisioning a real future with Meredith, sharing a bottle of wine, on the deck traveling together, waking up next to each other. He'd come to terms with the fact that he could no longer suppress his feelings. He didn't want a life without her, but the thought of telling Jannire the truth made him sick with dread.

49:38 He really did love his wife, but she was so challenging at times, and he'd grown tired of their insular life together. They'd made a lot of great memories, but Mark was tired of being Jennyire's whole world and felt suffocated. He claimed in their twenty eight years together, Jannaire had never offered a kind word or shown faith in him or his abilities. Meredith, on the other hand, and made him feel seen, appreciated and supported. For the first time in a long time, Mark felt built up instead of broken down. Y'all are going to be mad at me, but this is where we are going to stop for part what outrageous I'm so sorry, Yeah, but come back for part two. There's a lot to cover. It's going to be a long episode, but we will tell the rest of the story in part two.

50:22 Well, it's been interesting so far just to kind of see the kind of the inner workings of their relationship and how it evolved over the course of their marriage. Yeah, do you think that Jennyer might have had some psychological challenges? I mean, yeah, maybe it sounds like Mark had some of his issues of his own as well. Sounds like they both had issues and the fact that he you know, I know, marriages don't always last, and sometimes you know, that's fine, you grow apart, you grow in different directions, and you divorce. But it really bothers me when somebody uses a new relationship as an excuse to like end a. Marriage, right, so that it's funny. If there's one note that people take away from our podcast, it's like, get divorced.

51:05 Yeah exactly. I think we see this all the time. It's okay to get divorced. We're not divorced. But it's if it works, you know, if that's where your relationship is going, you know it's okay to end. It right for sure. So what do you think of Mark and Jennyer's dynamic. Well, it seems like, as we talked about, their kind of opposites, and I think that can work in a lot of cases. So it sounds like he was much more kind of passive, laid back. She was maybe much more aggressive, opinionated about things. I think that can work, but I think it seems like he got resentful over time, like he grew to dislike her over time and really didn't He didn't confront her, didn't deal with the feelings he was having, and so those kind of probably snowballed over time and he kept it internal, and that led to the affair.

51:48 I think when you're so young and you meet someone, you haven't formed your full personality. And that's true too. As you go through life, hopefully you gain confidence, and Mark gained and then yeah, he developed more of his own voice, and he resented being bossed around and being told what to do a lot. Yeah. I know, some people get married very young, or marry someone that they met in high school or whatever, and it works out fine, but it does seem like you have a lot of changing to still go through in your twenties and even you know. Even your thirties. You know, we're all hopefully growing and evolving, but hopefully you also become more aware of your partner's needs and not just your own needs. And I think in this case, maybe Jennair was not great at doing that. Yeah, that could be Mark's book A Reparable is available on Amazon Prime. Wait, Kindle Unlimited, that's what it's called, right, right, Yeah, yeah, so it is available there if you have that. I'm pretty much telling you exactly what the book says, but there is a little more insight into their relationship. I think he tried his best to be honest, but I believe he was hard on Jennaire, Like when he said she never gave him a compliment. I just I can't believe that.

53:02 Yeah, I mean, I'm sure he was probably trying to justify his behavior in the book, like his the affair that he had with Meredith, So he was probably trying maybe a little harder on her than he could have been. Yeah, I'm always afraid because I'm kind of joky and snirky with you on the podcast sometimes that people see me as like, oh, she never compliments him, or she's never nice to him. You compliment me a lot. You actually built You do a great job of building me up and supporting me, and I always appreciate that. It made me cheer up a little bit because I really do think that we have a very I think we're very supportive of each other and we're very fortunate in that way, And like when we were talking about how you know you grow together, I feel like I've definitely become a better partner because I don't think I was the best partner when I was twenty three and we first met, because who can be at twenty three?

53:50 Yeah, for sure, I think we've both we've both grown and changed. But I think being supportive with each other and knowing that you're both going to grow and change, I think helps a lot in a marriage. Well, And honestly, it's it's easy because you are You are one of the best people I know, maybe the best person. Let me make a list, but you're right up there. Can make a spreadsheet. We can make a spreadsheet. What do you think our biggest difference is? I don't know. Maybe maybe it's your propensity for neatness and my not. No, no, I don't know. I'm not sure you're not sloppy. I don't know. What do you think our biggest difference is? I can't think well. As I said in the beginning, I identify with Jennaire in the way that I definitely used to be much more confrontational, and you are definitely more of a pacifist like you wouldn't take the bait like I would, you know in my younger years, you know, like start a fight with you and you just never took it. And I think throughout the years I realized that that was just a much healthier way to be. Not that we can't have conflict, but.

54:52 Yeah, I think I've grown to be a little more willing to confront things that are bothering me or what I think. I used to be more of avoiding confrontation. Yeah, and then sometimes it would like bubble up and then it would become more of an argument where it could have been a discussion. Yeah, I'm still a little bit non confrontational. Listen to us, though we sounds so evolved, we're really not as evolved as we sound. Here. What are the things that we're most alike in? We both like? Good answer, That's exactly what I was looking for. All Right, Before we go, I have a little game to play with you called crime or Nah. I'm going to tell you three stories that actually happened, and you're going to tell me if there was any criminal behavior.

55:40 There or not. Oh okay. Because I am studying to be a lawyer, I should be. Very good at this right right, okay. Number one the taco toss. A couple in Florida got into a heated argument over sour cream that sounds all too familiar, or rather the lack of it. On Taco Tuesday, a man allegedly threw a taco at is girlfriend's face, prompting her to call the police. According to the report, she was hit in the left eye with seasoned beef and lettuce. Oh, that could be very painful. There's no yet, they could be sharp. Officers noted taco remnants at the scene. Crime or not? Was it asault with a semisoft weapon or just dinner got wrong?

56:23 That one, I think is pretty clearly a crime like that. It doesn't matter what you throw at someone. But if you throw something at someone that's gonna could potentially injure them, that's that's a salt. So all food fights are illegal, then, like you can't throw any food like mashed potatoes could. Be done in good fun without intent of injuring something. So if you're like at a wedding and you put cake in your spouse's space, is that illegal? I went to arrested for that. I went to a wedding once where that happened the bride walked. Out, which was that a wedding? I was answered, no, this is before we met. But it was really awkward, uncomfortable. Man Alms. He was trying to think what we did the other day, and I think we didn't because we were like, we're not going to do that because it's weird, civil it's very hackneyed. Everyone does it. Yes, do we put it in like Kevin's face, our best your best man?

57:12 Or I think we put it in someone's face, but not ours. I don't remember. Four hundred and twelve years ago. We don't remember, all right. Well. Story number one, the taco toss is a crime. This really happened in Florida. The man was charged with domestic battery after throwing a taco at his girlfriend during an argument. Turns out even tacos can be weapons if thrown in anger. Do not weaponize your lunch. Story number two the emotional support alligator. In Pennsylvania, a woman brought her certified emotional support alligator named Wally to a local mall. She claimed he was friendly, loved hugs, who does a love to hug an alligator and helped her with anxiety. Shoppers however, were less than reassured. Mall security asked her to leave, Police recalled, and he became a minor social media celebrity.

58:02 Overnight crime or not. Is it illegal to take a gator shopping or just wildly unadvised? I think it's both. Alligators to me are the most terrifying animal alive. Like when we were on vacation a couple of years. Ago North Carolina. Yeah, and we saw them and it. Was we did. It was really scary. But I have to think that would be illegal like that. That's terrify. If I was in a mall and I saw someone walking an alligator in the mall, I would call security for sure. I can't. I can't even picture that happening. I can't either. Story is completely real, but not a crime. Wally, the emotional support alligator does exist and lives in Pennsylvania with a woman who brings him to public places. The mall asked her to leave, but no laws were broken.

58:51 Really. Wally is reportedly chill and has his own social media following. I'm still not gonna hug him if I see him. Just the world we live in, I guess, so they can, like anything, be an emotional support animal. I will it's the most terrifying thing that you could see out an alligator, a tiger or I don't know. I'm more terrified of alligators than tigers. That's your biggest your ultimate fear is alligator. I mean probably, yeah. Yeah, So they got those giant jaws and they. Just stamp okay with crocodiles. Though, no, no, I don't like them. I put them in the same category. I know they're different, but all right.

59:32 Story number three, the pizza delivery revenge plot. After a customer left a scathing one star review claiming her pizza was colder than her ex's heart, a delivery driver allegedly took up personally. Over the next two weeks, she was seved thirty seven anchoby only pizzas in two weeks, none of which she ordered. Investigators trace the prank to a disgruntled driver through phone records and pizza box finger prints. This really happened? Really? Crime or n is revenge by pizza? Criminal harassment? Or just dedication to petty justice? Oh well, first of all, I would think it would be very hard to fingerprint a pizza box, but I'm not really an expert in finger printing technology.

1:00:15 But I don't know, well, because your fingers might be greasy, so that it would be like a greasy thing. Maybe, I guess so, I guess so. But I would not think that that would be a crime like someone. Probably, I mean, three thirty seven pizzas in two weeks, that's a lot of pizza. Yeah, I guess that could be considered harassed. The math it was multiple a day, like it would be, you know, two or more pizzas to day. I mean, if this person happened to like anchovies, that would be like a gift, like showing up at your door multiple times a day. One percentage of the population like Sancho's pretty, it's pretty slim. Yeah, well, this is a crime. And it also happened. Multiple Anchoby pizza deliveries were made to a woman who hadn't ordered them, and police investigated it as a form of harassment. The driver faced charges of stalking and mischief. And let's just say Anchovii's we're never fully clear cleared of wrongdoing. Revenge is a dish best not delivered repeatedly.

1:01:11 Yeah, it does seem a bit of an overreaction. It is crazy, like some of the laws that are on the books out there. Yeah, what do you want to do with the rest of our weekend? We're both going to work, aren't we work? Well? Thank you so much to Amy for recommending this case. Thank you so much to Ann for the wonderful brownies. Thanks to Owen for writing this episode. Owen's information if you want anything written, is in our show notes. If you would like to listen to part two of this episode right now, join us on patreon dot com slash Love Mary Kill. We have one tier five dollars a month and you get early ad free access plus a monthly bonus episode. It really is the best way to support the podcast if you like what we're doing. Thank you all so much for your support. The only reason that there is a podcast is that you continue to listen and support us.

1:02:01 Please rate, review, follow, and subscribe, find us on social media, or send us an email at Lovemary Kill at gmail dot com. Until next time, don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband.