Jennifer and Michael Blagg - Part 1

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage. It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife. And some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome the Love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina. How are you. I'm doing great? How are you? I'm good. Welcome to year three of Love, Mary Kill. Oh yeah, this is our first episode of year three. So exciting. It's it's unbelievable. Do you think we'd make it this far? He'll no, no, no way, but here we are.

0:45 It's fall. Yeah, finally, and what are you wearing today? I'm wearing a T shirt and shorts. It's still no, it's still I wasn't judging on wearing short It's just I'm surprised you're not representing one of the many Michigan and sports teams. Yeah. Well, today's kind of a little bit of an off day. I know it's Sunday, but the Lions don't play until Monday night and the Tigers don't start in the playoffs until Tuesday. We were super excited about that, super excited. This isn't going to be released until. Hopefully the Tigers are still in the playoffs by the time this is released, but. You will be so excited. You actually asked me if we could sort of go fund me per ticket it's a bit of playoffs, but I said no, Yeah, how much do you think they would go for?

1:28 I have no idea. Remember when they were in the World. Series and you bought tickets for me and our son to go. Yeah, that was really nice of me. I still don't know how much that cost, and I still don't really want to know. But I don't think it was as bad as you think. You I don't even remember, honestly, how much do you think. I don't know that under a thousand okay, I which is a lot, but I thought, I mean, our son was little at the time, and I was like, this is just a once in a lifetime thing that you guys would have that memory forever. Yeah, for sure. So I do have one more thing I wanted to say about sports before we move on. So I made a little wager and I haven't told you you really, So do you know what a parlay is? I mean, I know the word.

2:09 No parlay is basically, you're making two bets and both of them have to come true for you to win, okay, and so you win a lot more money if you Yeah. So I made a parlay bet win. I bet a couple few days ago, actually a couple of weeks ago. So I bet on the Tigers to win the American League Championship and the Lions to win the Super Bowl. I bet ten dollars and if it wins, it'll pay off like almost five thousand dollars. So, oh wow, you got that to look for it. I thought you were going to say it'll pay off her house. That is awesome. Quite that good, but still very exciting. Well that's I like that for you. Well, that's fun. It makes it more fun. But it could be defeated pretty quickly.

2:50 It could it could be over next week. And you've been listening to sports talk. I love Mary Kill. Any listeners out there if you would like to start a sports podcast with just send us a DM. I did bring you a snack. Hey, today's case takes place in Colorado, and I brought you Rocky Mountain Avalanche bars, which I'm pretty sure I made before podcast. I think I did, but they're worth repeating for sure. They're great, they're easy, they're tasty and I brought you a crisp Michigan honey crisp apple. Okay, I'm excited. They're so good. Yeah, you've had I mean, we've had them in the house for a week. Yeah, really good.

3:30 All right, We're gonna take a quick break and then ritual rate my snacks. So what did you think? I mean? I love I love the Avalanche bars. They're amazing. Love them. I think this may be a controversial opinion. I think that marshmallows are an underrated dessert. That's an element. I think some people don't like marshmallows, but I think they're I think they're amazing. I don't like to eat marshmallows plain, but when they're covered in peanut butter and chocolate, they're pretty good. Yeah. Yeah, ten out of oh. Okay, what about the honeycrisp apple. Honey crisp was great too. Now, as you know, honey crisp is not my favorite variety of apple. I'm a Fuji man. But the honey crisp are really really good right now, So I'm giving that a nine out of ten. Wow.

4:16 I love a honeycrisp apple, especially this time of year. I love it when it's cold and crisp ten out of toen on both snacks. Let me just talk about the Avalanche bars really quick. I just I think they're named that because there's a candy company called the Rocky Mountain Candy Company, which is out of Colorado, and I think it's just something that they made up. But they are white chocolate chips, peanut butter, rice, crispies, marshmallows, and one cup of chocolate chips. Most of the recipes that you come across will say many chocolate chips, but I just went ahead and put big chocolate chips. Make sure you put them in the freezer though, otherwise they just kind of melt into the other stuff. We will post the recipe. One thing that I added to the recipe, well, I doubled the peanut butter because I like to taste the peanut butter. And I put crushed pretzels in there.

5:06 Oh do you what do you think about the crushed pretzels? That was my addition. I think, yeah, just a little bit of salt. Yeah. So I will post my version and I think it's a pretty standard recipe. If you want the original recipe, just go online and you can search for Rocky Mountain Avalanche Bars. It's an easy, no bake recipe. You just have to heat the chocolate and the peanut butter in the microwave and then you just pour it over the rice crispies and the other stuff. But there are a couple of it's one of those forgiving recipes. You can use nut butters if you have a peanut butter allergy in your family, and how you can throw anything you want in there. I threw the pretzels in there. And you can also use chocolate like regular chocolate chips rather than white chocolate chips if you want excellent. Okay, enough about that. Today, I'm going to tell you the story of Jennifer and Michael Blagg and two of our listeners, Meredith and Susannah, recommended this case I think a while back. But I'm fine getting to it.

6:00 But today's episode may be disturbing for some listeners. It contains discussions of pornography, domestic abuse, sexual situations, suicide, and the death of a child, so please listen with care. On Tuesday, November thirteenth, two thousand and one, thirty eight year old Mike Blag had a hectic day at work as the acting plant manager for Amatech Dixon. That day, he oversaw the shipment of heavy assembly line machinery to a newly acquired factory in Mexico. Despite his busy day at work, he made time to call his wife Jennifer. He typically checked in on her between three and nine times a day. Wow, kind of a lot. If you called me even three times a day, I'm not sure. I wouldn't like it at all.

6:45 Yeah, Hey, how are you doing? What are you up to? But we both work from home, so it would be really weird if you called me nine times. You called me once or twice a day. I do call you, yeah, because sometimes I'm like, this is too long to text. I just yeah, I'm sorry for that. On November thirteenth, Mike called four times, starting at seven a m. To make sure that Jennifer and their daughter Abbey were awake for school. Most days, Jennifer volunteered at Abbe's school Bookcliff Christian School. Each time Mike called, he got the answering machine. At four pm, he realized with mild concern that he hadn't talked to Jennifer all day, but he assumed that she was simply busy. With other things. At four twenty pm, Mike returned home to Pine Terrace Court in Grand Junction, Colorado. The Blags lived on a quiet cul de sac in a pleasant middle class neighborhood.

7:34 When Mike entered the house, he expected his adorable, energetic daughter Abby six to come charging to greet him, but the house was quiet. Mike was sneaking some early Christmas presents into the house. He was grateful for the moment of peace so he could quickly stow the shopping bags away undetected. He realized, though, that something was a miss. He peered into the primary bedroom, which was visible from the entryway. The usually tidy room looked ransacked. When Mike walked into the room, he saw a pool of blood on the carpet, A lot of blood. He was too sickened by the gruesome scene to use the bedroom phone. He ran and called nine one one from the kitchen. I could not find a good recording of the call, and the call is pretty important, so we are going to reenact the call. And it's a little lengthy. Nine one one. What's your emergency?

8:20 Oh my god, it's in the house. Okay, what's going on? I just got home from work, and there's blood all over the bed and there's stuff all over the floor. My family's gone. My daughter and my wife aren't here. Okay, calm down. You're at Pine Terrace Court, yes, okay, hold on. And there's blood on. The bed, yes, And the back door is open. Things are messed up in your room. Just in the master bedroom. It looks like how old is your wife? She's thirty thirty four, she'll be thirty five this January. And how old is your child? Six? Oh god? Okay, calm down. Is your wife's car out front? Mike? Let me look in the garage? Okay, yeah, in the garage.

9:04 Okay, hold on, Have you touched anything, Mike. The front door. I came through the front door and now I touched the garage door to look in the garage. Okay. And the phone, correct, yeah, the phone. Okay, don't touch anything else. Okay. Can you tell me about the blood. What does it look like? Does it look like somebody laid there in blood? Does it look like it's splattered? Oh? Her pillows are gone. Her pillows, Yeah, she sleeps with two pillows and they're gone. And there's a big, big pool of blood about where they would be and there's it's stripped all over the side of the bed onto the floor. Okay, hold on, so the blood's dripping off the bed onto the floor. Mike. Do you have a cordless phone? Yes? Can I get you to go outside and talk to you? Please?

9:46 Yes? Okay, Okay, let me know when you're outside. Okay, Okay, you outside? Yes? What I want you to do, Mike? Can you sit on your stairs? Do you have a porch or something you can sit on? I'm on the back porch. Okay. I want you to sit down, and I want you to breathe real deep and real slow for a minute. Mike. How old are you? Thirty eight? Have you and your wife been having problems? No? No? No? And when was the last time you talked to your wife? Last night? Before we went to bed. And everything was okay? Yes? Does your daughter go to school? Yes, she goes to book Cliff Christian School. Did she go to school today? Nobody's called. I don't know when did you leave this morning? I always leave at six o'clock in the morning. I'm going back inside. I'm going to go look in my daughter's room.

10:30 You're going to go look in your daughter's room. Yes, Okay, you need to tell me what you're doing. You need to tell me what you're seeing. I pushed open the door without touching anything. Okay, turned on the light switch. U huh. Her school clothes are still waiting for her. Her bed is messed up. Her bed is messed up as if she slept in it. The covers are pulled back and there's no blood. And her school clothes are still laid out, so she never put them on. No, she never put them on. Her fan is still on too, so she didn't turn off her fan this morning. So she never got dressed. No. Okay, Mike, I need you to go back outside. Okay, let me know when you're back outside. Okay, I'm back outside and sitting on my porch again. Take some deepress and let it out real slow. I don't want you to go into shock or anything.

11:12 Okay, Mike. Do you want me to send an ambulance to check you out? I don't know. I don't know what to do. We have officers and route and I'm going to keep you on the phone till they get there. Okay, Mike, take some deepress and let them out real slow. Okay, Okay, keep breathing. You're doing good, Mike. Where can they be? I don't know, Mike. And you said you and your wife you're getting along? Yes, and everything was okay? Yes, when you left this morning, was she up? No? She stays asleep until six thirty. Both Abby and Jennifer get up at six thirty. Your wife's a stay at home mom. Yes, she usually helps at school. She works at the school. She doesn't work, she volunteers. When you were looking around the house, did you notice anything else missing? I only went into the master bedroom and upstairs.

11:55 You have an upstairs home, then, yes, it's two story. And you said you were in the garage and the car still there. Yes, so you didn't look in any other rooms? No, okay, that's fine. We'll let the deputies do that. Okay. Do you have any weapons in the house? Yeah, A pistol in our closet in. The master bedroom. Yes. Does your wife know where it is? Yes, she did, all right. We didn't keep it loaded though. Oh you didn't. No, okay, we'll just let the officers know that they're en route. Yes. What's your wife's first. Name, Jennifer? And your daughter's name Abby? And Abby's in what grade? First grade. The other dispatchers are gonna call so we can find out about school. She's in Miss Faznac's class.

12:35 Miss Basnacht Faznact. Come on, you're doing fine. I know it's really hard. Let's just keep reathing untill they get there. You didn't call and talk to your wife anytime during the day. I tried about four times and never got through. So the phone just rang. Well, we've got an answering machine. Oh so you did leave a message. Yes, I tried her cell phone and I tried her at home. Does your wife have a medical problem. She's got a multiple value of prolapse. What does that mean. It's similar to a heart murmur? Oh, okay, she's got vulvar vestibulitis, which is a chronic problem with the vestibular glands in her genitals. She had her gallbladder removed. She had so many problems. So she does have problems. Come on, Mike, let's take some deep breaths.

13:19 Friday is our tenth anniversary. Have you lived in Grand Junction the entire time? No, we moved around. I've been in the Navy, I've been an Allied signal, and now I'm with amateec. Okay, let me know who that is that's showing up. I think it might be the ambulance. Okay, end of call. Sorry for our bad acting there. Bad acting. Yeah, I really can't just cry on com. And I wish I could have found a better recording because his demeanor was at times he was calm, at times he was not calm. Did anything stand out for you on the call? Well, he did refer to her in the past tense, she had so many problems. I think he said that stood out for sure.

14:03 And do you think it was odd that he didn't check the garage for a vehicle and he didn't look in Abbey's room before he called nine one? Definitely odd that he didn't look at Abbey's room. I would think that would be the first thing you would think of, is my daughter safe? Is she here? Like? Yeah, that for sure. The garage still Yeah, a little strange, but not as odd. Do you think it was odd he mentioned vulvarvestab latest a little bit. He kind of went into some pretty clinical detail. Yeah, that was very strunge. That had nothing to do with his wife disappearing, right, do you know what that condition is? I mean, only from what I just read. Yeah, I believe it makes intercourse painful, like there's a lot of inflammation and it can be like extremely painful, like a stabbing like pain.

14:46 Okay. Deputy Tim Moore was the first to arrive at Pine Terrace Court. He found an emotional mic Blag sitting on the front porch. When Deputy Moore entered the house, he noticed the back door was open, but there were no signs of forest. He wasn't sure if Michael Black had left it open by a mistake. The back door had a small, inexpensive door handle alarm, but the batteries had been removed. Do you know what that It's just a little contraption that if someone is to open the door, like in the middle of the night, it makes like a siren type sound. The first floor was tidy, but when he entered the bedroom he spotted a puddle of blood that stained the right side of the mattress. The blood had dripped onto the floor and pulled on the carpet.

15:29 The blood was dark and congealed, as if it had been there for a while. No blood stains were found exiting the room, as you'd expect to find if a bloody body had been carried or dragged through the house. Jennifer's jewelry box lay open on the floor and all of the jewelry was missing, and the contents of her purse were dumped out, but the cash and credit cards were still there. A pair of sweatpants had been kicked off, and inside there were two pair of underwear, along with a few other articles of clothing scattered on the floor. Mike Blagg said that his wife would not have left the room in such a condition. Jennifer's key to her mini van was found in the bedroom among the detritus from her purse. Mike had the other one on the key ring in his pocket. The deputy went upstairs and found Abbey's bed unmade, a baby doll lying near her barbie pillow, her school clothes sitting on her craft table.

16:22 There was no blood in her room. Deputy More thought it was odd that the ceiling fans were running in both of the bedrooms. Jennifer and Abbey were nowhere to be found. He thought it was odd that the ceiling fans were running. Our ceiling fans are. Never I know. I was thinking the same thing. Grand Junction, where the Black family lived, is the largest City, between Salt Lake City and Denver. Grand Junction lies in Masa County, the fourth largest county in Colorado. Based on land mass, the county is seventy six percent public land. That's a lot of public land. It is, providing endless open space to explore. The population of Mesa County according to the twenty twenty censuses one hundred fifty six thousand and Grand Junction's population is sixty five thousand. The name Grand Junction stems from it being at the junction of the Colorado River formerly known as the Grand River and the Gunnison River. Grand Junction sits in a bowl shaped valley ringed by tall mountains, desert mesas, and red rock cliffs.

17:22 Europeans arrived in Grand Junction in the eighteen eighties, but the area had been inhabited for thousands of years by indigenous tribes, including the Ute and Fremont, among others. Remnants of tribal history remain, including petroglyphs and cave paintings. In the late nineteenth century, settlers were drawn to the fertile Grand Junction area for its agricultural potential. This oasis remains one of Colorado's largest food producers including peaches, pears, cherries, apples, and other produce. In addition to food production, the Grand Junction area includes unprayer paralleled natural beauty. Nature's Trifecta lives there, which includes Colorado National Monument known as a Mini Grand Canyon, The Grand Mesa, the largest flat top mountain in the world, bursting with over three hundred lakes and rattlesnake arches, the second most concentration of natural arches in the world.

18:13 Sounds like a beautiful place. I know. I really want to go to Colorado sometime soon. Well, Mesa County is a beautiful place to live. Sadly, it has a suicide rate forty percent higher than the national average and higher than the rest of Colorado. Eight of ten states with the highest suicide rates are located in mountain states, and it's been trending upwards since twenty twenty. The community is working hard on suicide prevention programs, starting in high schools. It's really strange. Wonder what the correlation is. I don't know why suicide rates are higher in mountain states, but I did read something about sometimes people feel isolated in those areas because of the mountains. Yeah, I didn't know that it's such beautiful places. Yeah.

18:58 Jennifer Joe Lowman was born on January eighth, nineteen sixty seven, in Oklahoma. Her parents divorced when she was young. Jennifer's father was a state trooper. He was an alcoholic, but entered treatment and was in recovery at the time of his death in nineteen ninety nine. He had remarried after he divorced Jennifer's mom, Marylyn. Jennifer had told some friends that her father had molested her as a child. Jennifer has one brother, David, three years older Jennifer, David, and Marylyn were a very close knit family. After the divorce, Jennifer's father chose to not have a relationship with his children. This crushed Jennifer. She pined for a father figure in her life. She picked God as her surrogate father and became a born again Christian when she was fourteen. In her journals, which she wrote as a conversation between herself and God, she often called God Dad. Jennifer suffered from bouts of depression and anorexia after she was sexually assaulted by a male relative when she was twelve.

19:57 I believe this was in addition to her father. Oh Boy. Jennifer was a good student, though she enjoyed ballet and piano lessons. The Loman's lives revolved around the Baptist Church. Jennifer especially loved singing in the church choir and attending youth group activities. Maryland married a man named Harold Conway, who became a devoted and loving stepfather to Jennifer and David. Jennifer was popular and outgoing in high school. She was a member of the Pep Club, powderpuff football drill team, and drama club. Jennifer graduated from high school in nineteen eighty five and then attended Oklahoma State University. After Jennifer was settled in college, Marilyn and Harold moved to San Diego. Jennifer missed them so much that she transferred to National University in San Diego to finish her degree.

20:46 This is where she met Michael Blagg. Michael Francis Blagg was born in Sherman, Texas, in nineteen sixty three. He has two brothers and one sister. His father was in the Air Force and the family moved frequently. They lived in Corpus Christi, Texas, Hawaii, and Georgia, among others. Mike's father, Colonel John Blagg, worked as an attorney for the Judge Advocate General's office. His mother, Betsy, was a corporate attorney. Mike was a good kid and an excellent student. He earned several academic awards in high school. He ran track and played football. After he graduated from high school in nineteen eighty one, he majored in nuclear engineering at Georgia Tech.

21:27 While in college, Mike was in the Navy ROTC program. He married his first wife when he was twenty one. They parted amicably a year later. Mike said she didn't enjoy military life and wanted a career of her own. When she was contacted by investigators, she had nothing negative to say about Mike. He entered the Navy full time after college and began helicopter flight training. Mike worked on the USS Kiddie Hawk as a flight deck officer during Desert Storm and rose to the rank of lieutenant commander. He oversaw twenty thousand ten takeoffs and landings without one crash. After his divorce. While at sea, he partied often and dated lots of women. In nineteen eighty seven, a lifelong Catholic, Mike became a born again Christian, but wasn't quite ready to fully embrace the lifestyle. Mike met his future wife, Jennifer Lowman, while stationed in San Diego. She was studying business administration at National University. Jennifer was bubbly, gregarious, and funny, known for her distinctive laugh, but she was also deeply religious.

22:31 She prayed over every decision. They met at a beach party. Mike's best friend was dating a friend of Jennifer's. On their first date on July fourth, nineteen eighty eight, they went to a Japanese restaurant and then saw who framed Roger Rabbit. The night ended with fireworks, literal fireworks. A friend of Jennifer's said that she had always wanted to marry a pilot. Mike was away frequently with his carrier Battlegroup, for extended tours in the Persian Gulf. Jennifer waited for him. After three years of dating, Jennifer twenty four and Mike twenty eight were married on November sixteenth, nineteen ninety one. After their wedding, they moved to Corpus Christi, Texas. Jennifer and Mike were a good fit. His traditional views on gender roles aligned with Jennifer's desire for a husband who would take care of her and guide her through life.

23:22 She was comfortable being subservient to her husband. However, early in their marriage, Mike was still drinking and partying more than Jennifer was comfortable with, and she threatened to leave Mike if he didn't change his ways. He stopped drinking. Jennifer became pregnant during the summer of nineteen ninety four. Her pregnancy was challenging. Initially, she failed to gain weight, but eventually gained over seventy pounds, which was difficult for a recovering anorexic. Mike returned to see on the USS Kiddie Hawk during the last few months of Jennifer's pregnancy. He missed Abby's birth on March twenty first, nineteen ninety five, but Marylyn, Jennifer's mother, was there. After Abbey's birth, Jennifer struggled with postpartum depression. After her difficult first pregnancy, Jennifer and Mike decided they were happy being a family of three.

24:13 Mike had of a sectomy about six months after Abbey was born. In nineteen ninety five, After ten years of service, Mike left the Navy in part because Jennifer needed more support at home. Deciding to leave his demanding job in the Navy for civilian life was difficult for Mike. He missed the camaraderie, structure, and challenge of the military. After leaving the Navy, Mike worked for Allied Signal, a military contractor which later merged and became part of Honeywell. The Blags moved several times in the following years, first to Phoenix, then Simpsonville, North Carolina, and eventually Grand Junction. Jennifer loved living in the tight knit Christian community of Simpsonville. She loved her church and easily made friends. Mike was a Sunday school teacher and Jennifer sang in the and started a woman's Bible study group. Mike was nominated to be a deacon, which was a rare honor for someone so young, but later he was forced to step down from his role as a Sunday school teacher when some of the teens complained about his ultra conservative views on abortion and homosexuality.

25:18 The Blags bought a house they loved and were doing well financially. They owned his and hers BMW's, but later traded them in for Dodge neons because they felt they better served God that way. I'm sure you have very fond memories of Dodge neon. I did have a Dodge. I actually worked at the Chrysler factory one summer. And you like inspected the Dodge neons before they rolled out of the facts. I was like eighteen working on you know, I wasn't. Yeah, that was crazy. Those were crazy times. That's when we first met. Not long after, Mike wasn't happy in South Carolina, in part because he and his boss didn't get along, which prompted the move to Grand Junction, Colorado. Jennifer was heartbroken to leave her friends and church in Simpsonville. Mike began a job with Amatech Dixon as the director of operations in April two thousand. Amatech Dixon is a billion dollar company that makes gages for large machinery and trucks.

26:15 The plant employed one hundred eighty people. He made a good salary of one hundred and ten thousand dollars adjusted for inflation. That's about two hundred thousand dollars today. Mike had struggled in the private sector since leaving the Navy. His most recent job review at Amtech rated his performance as acceptable. Mike was smart, capable, and detail oriented. He specialized in lean manufacturing, but his heart wasn't in his work and he wasn't excited about his future at Amtech. Some co workers described him as cold, distant, controlling, obsessive, and arrogant, but others called him stoic and reserved. He was always looking for a better position, even if it meant moving, and he and Jennifer thought about this frequently.

26:59 She wanted to put down roots, especially now that six year old Abbey was in school. Neighbors describe the Blags as quiet and keeping to themselves, and their blinds were always closed. One neighbor said she didn't even realize anyone was living in the house, but others said they were friendly when they went out for a walk or a bike ride. What do you think our neighbors would say about us? Probably something very similar, like, yeah, they don't see us often, but when we go out for a walk, we're friendly, but we don't make a point. I don't. I know a lot of people are friendly with their neighbors and they spend time together, but we've never really had that We've always been, you. Know, in our subdivision. Most people seem to keep to themselves. I think so. I think that's how it is these days.

27:41 But maybe I'm proudly maybe not everywhere. The Blags rented, hoping to purchase a house soon, but their home in South Carolina didn't sell for ten months and then for a loss of eight thousand dollars. It put a debt into their savings and strain their marriage. The Blags quickly found another church Injunction Monument Baptist Church. They became fast friends with the pastor, Ray Shirley and his wife, Diana. The Blag soon felt called to join another church, New Hope Fellowship Church, where Jennifer and Mike led a prayer ministry. They attended both churches multiple times a week. Two months after the Twin Towers fell and the Pentagon was struck, As the country reeled and tried to process the tragic deaths of so many innocent people, Mike constantly worried about the safety of his family. He created a binder full of banking information, insurance policies, and other important papers in case of an emergency. In the fall of two thousand and one, Mike went to a psychiatrist complaining of insomnia, depression, and a constant twitch in his leg. He was taking six different medications. Jennifer, too, faced loads of health problems. She'd been having constant stomach pains since she'd had a gall letter removal surgery in nineteen ninety nine. Jennifer was very sensitive to hormonal chain in her body and had tried several medications to help her control her anxiety and depression, but each time the cure was worse than the symptom. She also suffered from vulver fvestibulitis, which we talked about earlier, and in the

29:14 year two thousand, she had a full hysterectomy due to endometriosis, which gave her heavy, painful menstrual cycles and ovarian cysts. Endometriosis affects one in ten women, and there is a link between physical and sexual abuse and endometriosis. Epidemiologist doctor Holly Harris of the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, author to study published in the journal Human Reproduction. She called the association between childhood physical and sexual abuse and endometriosis, particularly strong women who reported severe to chronic abuse in childhood had a seventy nine percent higher risk of developing endometriosis in adulthood. Doctor Harris said, quote both physic and sexual abuse were associated with endometriosis risk, and it's a strong association. There's also a dose response, meaning the risk increases with the increasing severity and type of abuse. End quote.

30:14 This doesn't mean that every woman who suffers from endometriosis about two hundred million women worldwide, was physically or sexually abused as a child, but it demonstrates that both abuse and endometriosis are far too common. One in three women have reported some form of abuse in their lives. This study does not prove that abuse causes endometriosis. The cause is unknown, but the study does add to the growing body of evidence linking adverse childhood experiences with poor health outcomes in the future. Interesting Jennifer had recently been diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome, and again, women with endometriosis are eight times more likely to have chronic fatigue syndrome. Jennifer was so exhausted she sometimes needed to take up to ten days off from her usual schedule. In May two thousand and one, Jennifer thought she may have a brain tumor, but her MRI came back clear.

31:10 Wow. So she did have for a young woman and she was only there. Yeah, she did have, you know, a lot of things that were going on with her. Yeah. It's really tough to go through life with all all those challenges. Yeah, and it does make it hard on the whole family when mom, you know, isn't feeling well. Right, we'll be back after a break. I did not have an avalanche bar at the beginning, but I had one during her break. And they're really good, So really make them. If you make them, let me know what you think. Yeah, like you said, they're so easy too. What do you think of the blag so far? It's a good question. I mean, they seem like Jennifer seemed obviously having like a lot of the health issues she had and the move to Colorado and everything and not selling their house. It seems like there was some stress in their life together as a family. But other than that, I guess I don't really feel like I have a full picture yet of kind of the family dynamics and you know, how they work toward each other.

32:10 I think they were happy, and I think Jennifer she had a lot of health issues, but she was generally a happy person okay, and very loved. Everyone thought she was great. And people saw them as a happy, stable family unit for sure. Mike strikes me as a very intelligent man. Yeah, and the kind of the kind of guy that thinks he knows better than everyone. Like he thinks he's the smartest guy in the room. You're looking You're looking at me a little funny when you always. You're the one who started smirking. I mean you're the only guy in the room. So, yes, you are definitely the smartest guy in the room. Okay, fair enough. Why did you get that smirky smirk? I don't know. I just feel like that's what people think of me sometimes.

32:53 Oh, you have an elevated I mean you are very smart. Yeah. I don't know. I don't mean that I'm like arrogant about it. I just feel like sometimes maybe people think that. Yeah, everyone's always talking about how smart is. All right, let's move on. After Mike reported Jennifer and Abby missing, the police were not sure what kind of situation they were dealing with. Was it a robbery gone wrong? Had Jennifer and Abby been kidnapped, had they been killed, Had they been sexually assaulted, or had they left on their own free will. Could Jennifer have attacked Abby and escaped the scene of the crime and disposed of her body.

33:33 Could Jennifer have attacked her assailant and fled with Abby. Jennifer and Abby were considered low risk victims. They lived in a safe neighborhood and didn't have dangerous lifestyles. Investigators immediately knew there was a ninety nine percent chance that Mike had killed them. He was put into the back of an ambulance. He seemed to be in shock. Although not confirmed, they knew the blood most likely belonged to Jennifer, and she was likely dead or had suffered life threatening injuries. Because of the amount of blood, it would be highly unusual for anyone other than an intimate partner to move bodies from the crime scene. It would slow their escape and increase the likelihood of being caught. It's an interesting observation.

34:13 I hadn't really considered that before, but it makes sense. Yeah, why would anyone take the body with them? Right after the search warrant was secured, detectives began combing through the house. Clear droplets, possibly water or cleaning fluid were found by the front door. Droplets of blood very small, pinpoint sized, were found on the exterior and interior of Jennifer's forward Windstar van. There were trace amounts of blood found on the steering wheel, the brake pedal, the driver side door handle, and a few droplets on the driver's side door, but that was it. If a body had been placed in the van, surely there would have been more blood unless they'd been tightly wrapped in a tarp or a rug. When luminol was used in the van, trace amounts of blood were found on the back of the driver's side seat and the inside of the passenger side door, as well as on the left side of the steering wheel and the passenger side arm rest. No blood was found in the mudroom or the garage.

35:12 Actually, that's a lie. There was a tiny spot on one of the garage steps, okay, but when we're tired, they're tiny, tiny, like just pin pricks. Some of them were like tiny droplets, But it wasn't as much blood as you would expect to see. Right, the van's seats were laid down flat, as if someone had hauled something recently. When luminol was used in the house. It did not indicate that any blood was trailed throughout the house. All the sinks and drains were taken apart, no blood was found. All of the dirty clothes and the hamper were taken out and checked. Not a speck of blood was found. Can blood not be washed out of a drain? I'm sure it can be washed out of a drain, But you know, traces of blood get everywhere, and I think it's hard to completely eliminate it. Plus, maybe like the you know, trains have a trap at the bottom of them, and okay, I don't know if maybe because blood is probably heavier than water, maybe some of it settles.

36:06 Yeah, maybe a stain and it. Makes it hard to get that out of there. And maybe it would stain at PVC pipe. Good. Yeah, there was a stain on the carpet in Mike's office under his desk. It wasn't blood. Okay, what might you find under a man's. Crumb cookie crumbs, That's what you would likely find under my desk. This is gross, but it was semen, Okay. Sniffer dogs were brought in and alerted in the garage and the front porch. Another dog headed to the Colorado River about a quarter mile away. The blood stain on the bed was peculiar. Mesa County Sheriff's Office Sergeant Wayne Whaler said, quote, the stain is generally in a circular pattern and unusual in that coagulated blood was along the perimeter or border of the circular pattern, roughly between a one o'clock and seven o'clock position. The top two thirds of the stains are more watery than expected. It appeared that water or another clear liquid had been added to the pool of blood. Absent was an impression of where the victim could have laid. There was a significant amount of blood on the bed and the floor, but no blood spatter or cast off, indicating that the victim did not fight back and likely hadn't been shot, stabbed, or hit with blunt force.

37:26 I mean, it's pretty rare to have a crime scene where there's no blood. Spatter at all, Right, that is very strange, And just the fact there was so much blood on the bed and the floor but there weren't stains throughout the house just is very strange. Yeah, the blood stain was on the right side of the bed, Jennifer's side. The left side looked as if no one had slept there. There was only one pillow on the bed. Where had the other two pillows gone? Mike said that Jennifer used two pillows and he only used one. Three unloaded guns were located in the closet of the primary bedroom, a shotgun, a twenty two rifle, and a twenty two handgun, but there were no bullets in the house. These guns had belonged to Mike's father. Later investigators dug up an old home insurance policy in which Mike had listed a nine millimeter gun on his policy in addition to the other three guns, so the nine millimeter gun was not found.

38:23 Correct Mike had left seven messages on the answering machine, each with increasing concern. Good morning, gorgeous theaters calling to see how you're doing. Hey, where are you? Let's just calling to see how you're doing. Man, where are you? Guys? You did that make your skin crawl a little bit? Yeah? Well, I mean it probably wouldn't if I didn't know that, you know, something had happened to his wife and daughter, But it did sound a little weird, like, hey. Where are the enthusiastic? Yeah, I couldn't find a clip of the entire higher messages, so I'm just going to have you read them really quick. I think this is really interesting.

39:05 So the other messages were, Hello, my beautiful bride, hope you're having fun. I hope you're out and about doing all kinds of cool, nifty things. And then later, Hey, where are you guys? I hope everything's going okay? I love you, I miss you, And the last message, man, where are you guys? It's three twenty two and I haven't talked to you all day. I love you, sweetie. I hope everything is going well for you. So it wasn't unusual for him to call several times during the day, as we talked about earlier, right, but the fact that he's just the messages he's leaving are like they sound really phony to me, like, Hey, what are you guys doing? Where are you guys? And I can't hear his tone on all of them, but it does sound a little phony to me.

39:48 We don't know what their relationship is like, but it does seem a little controlling if he calls her, you know, even three times a day is a lot to talk to your spouse. I think, yeah, unless there's something going on, If like a child's sick or you know, there's extenuating circumstances. But in general, I think calling your spouse yeah today. Well, you know this was back in the year two thousand and one, so you weren't texting as much now I think we would we tee like when you're traveling, we text quite a bit, but we don't actually gosh you ever, even I don't. Think, not very much. I must never call each other. Yeah, so we're all constantly in touch via text. But yeah, Amateech was just ten minutes from his house, and if he was so worried, wouldn't he have just driven home and checked on Jennifer.

40:32 Which makes sense he was having a very busy day. But still, if you were worried that your wife and child were missing, like I would, I would think you would go home, find a way to go home other than the primary bedroom. There were no signs of a struggle in the house. The scene left seasoned investigators uneasy. They thought the house felt staged. There were valuable items in the house that weren't taken. Even cash was left untouched. No other drawers or closets had been opened or rifled through. I would like to go at ransacking a house. Yeah. Yeah. One of the officers said that when a criminal comes into your house that it looks like a tornado went through it. There might be holes in the walls, there's like serious damage. Your furniture is going to be damaged.

41:18 Things are going to be turned completely over, and not just one random table, but you know, it's just your whole house is going to look like a mess. There's going to be a trail, you know, there would have been a trail to Jennifer of you know, things that. Were really see I would have thought almost the opposite, because you always hear about people staging a scene or we you know, we talk about it a lot, and you always hear like, oh, furniture is overturned. And I always think, well, a burglar isn't going to overturn furniture, right, They're coming in to steal something, so they're going to go after whatever it is that they're stealing. But it seems like people always think that the house is just sort of like, I don't know that stuff is strewn everywhere, but you're kind of saying that is that is the case.

42:00 That's what this officer said. And a drawer isn't going to be just opened. It's going to be pulled, you know, pulled out, and the contents are just you know, going to go flying, right. I guess I'm curious now to see some actual crime scenes that were just burglary reads and see what it actually looks like when a burglar comes in left it research. On that you've never had that happen to. Us, Well, I did once when I was younger. I had an apartment broken into and robbed. And I mean there wasn't it wasn't stuff strewn all over, like the door was broken open. That was how I knew that somebody had had gotten in. But then what did they take they took? I had a bike, a guitar, some film equipment and stuff. So it just took a few things.

42:44 And honestly, it took me a while to look around the house and realize that what was missing, because things weren't all messed up either. It probably depends on the criminal that's at your house. Probably true. Jennifer's retainers that she wore nightly were missing, suggesting that she had been attacked while she was still in bed. Her bank account and credit cards remained untouched when Mike's work and home computers were searched. Eighteen hundred pornographic images were found. An email to Jennifer was in Mike's draft folder, but a copy printed on November thirteenth, two thousand and one, at three point fifty eight pm, was found on the floor of the primary bedroom among the items that spilled from Jennifer's purse.

43:28 The timing here is telling November thirteenth at three point fifty eight pm. Mike prints this email off at work right before he comes home, and then it was found at the crime scene, folded up by Jennifer's purse. Okay, The email read quote Jennifer, I love you. I'm sorry we have ruined this day and opportunity to spend our lunchtime together. I don't know what went wrong. My intent was to spend a wonderful time with you and coincidentally get some Christmas shopping done. That obviously went astray. The Lord tells me not to let the sun go down on my anger, and so I won't. You are the light of my life. I ask for your forgiveness for any wrongs I have done to you, and I also forgive the wrongs I have perceived against me. I do not want us to waste a weekend being angry with one another. I would love to take some time today to talk through these problems we are having. I will send this as an email, but also I will bring it home to you. After Paul says to not let the sun go down on our anger, he says, do not give the devil a foothold. I am sorry.

44:33 I have given the devil a foothold. I will always love you. So they had had a fight I think on Friday and November thirteenth, the day that Abby and Jennifer disappeared as a Tuesday. So this to me implies that he's given her the email on Friday when he got home from work. Okay, not on the Tuesday, because he's saying. We're going to enjoy the weekend or they're want to get past it for the weekend, okay, to investigators and told them that he'd printed the email out on Friday, so to support the story that you just told to basically make it sound like they were going into the weekend and he wanted to resolve this issue. He didn't remember what the fight was about, but it was no big deal, he said. Police had possession of the blag house until early December. Every square into the house had been searched for evidence, including crawl spaces, rain gutters, and the roof. Police removed over one hundred and fifty pieces of evidence. The house was in rough shape when they turned it back over to Mike. Sections of carpet, drywall, and plumbing pipes were cut out. Every surface of the house was covered in fingerprint, dust and luminol, and investigators did not repair any of the damage they left behind.

45:46 The house was not liveable. The police did not share their findings with Mike. He decided to pack up his family's belongings and move to a townhouse downtown. Mike's sister Claire, his mother Betsy, and Jennifer's helped him pack. Mike was sure to tell people his new home had three bedrooms for when Jennifer and Abby returned home. He kept the same phone number two so that Jennifer could call him. Mike asked friends if they wanted to see the crime scene, which they found very strange. That is very strange. It is very strange. Do you think it's odd that he moved? Not really, no, I mean I think one the house is like a crime scene and your wife's blood was all over, I would not want it. I'd feel weird staying there. But also because of the fact that the police had really done a number on it. It sounds like with their search. So yeah, it doesn't seem surprising to me.

46:39 I think if my husband and child were missing, I would not want to move from the house that they went missing from until you know, I knew for sure they weren't coming back. When crime scene investigators were combing through his house, Mike went to the police station with his pastor for an interview. They were there for seven hours. I haven't got a clue who would have any malice in their heart at all, or anyone in our family. Hatty's a beautiful little girl, a wonderful. Energetic little girl. I didn't see any blood in. Her room when I was up there, so that there's some scary thoughts going in my mind about what could be happening or could have happened to her. There are sick people in this world.

47:27 Unfortunately, I couldn't find a lot of clips from Mike's interrogation. When asked to describe his wife, Mike said, quote, she's the most energetic enthusiastic, wonderful woman you could ever want to meet. She's a good Christian, warm loving woman. She's about five foot four, blonde hair and she's letting it grow out. It was sure, but now it's probably just a bit over shoulder length. She's got brown eyes, and she's just as cute as can be. I've never seen her not make friends with people. Everybody that she talks to is instant a friend of hers. She could talk to anybody. She could talk to a wall and she'd have the wall laughing in ten minutes after she started talking to it. End quote. When asked about his marriage, he said, quote very strong. We've got a wonderful marriage.

48:15 He said. God came first for himself and Jennifer, then their marriage, and then Abby. Their tenth wedding anniversary was just days away. Jennifer and Mike had hired a babysitter and made reservations to go out to celebrate. Mike knew how much Jennifer wade and knew what size she wore. He said he was proud of her for recently losing some weight. Friend said that he was controlling and Jennifer had to get as okay before changing her hair or buying new clothing, but other friends said that they had a perfect relationship. I know every marriage is different, and some women don't mind if their husband buys them clothes or whatever. But you have no idea of what size I wear or you know, I really don't. You really don't, and you don't really care to.

49:00 No, not really. Mike thought that whatever had happened to Jennifer and Abbey happened between six and six thirty am, after he'd left for work, but before they were supposed to get up to start their day. Sergeant Wayne Wiler questioned why Mike didn't mention his daughter during the initial nine one one call. He said, it concerns me, Mike a little bit. Why you come home and you're very concerned about your wife. Why wouldn't your daughter enter into your mind? Because my first concern was for my spouse. Okay, give me the reasoning here. I mean, everybody thinks differently, so tell me why that is with you. I love I love my daughter and I love my wife both. But my wife is the light of my life here on earth. That's the way it is with me.

49:47 And when I saw that blood initially, that's where the fear was pulling me because I saw stuff that I wasn't expecting to see there. What do you think of that? I think it's absolutely unthinkable that you would not go check your daughter's room immediately be wondering what happened to your daughter. You have my approval and encouragement to check on our kids, even our cats, before you check on me. Mike was given a light detector test he passed. As a pilot in the Navy, Mike had received training in case of capture, and that training proved to be invaluable when he needed it most. I want to take training on how to fake a lie detector test. Well, someday, maybe it is a birthday gift. I'm going to give you a live.

50:31 Cat. Wait, you say it, well, you say it all the time that you want to take one and see if you could beat it. I'm pretty sure you couldn't. I'm pretty sure I couldn't. You think you're a pretty emotional guy. You try to be stoic, but you know Jennifer's mother, Marilyn, and stepfather rushed to Colorado after Jennifer and Abbey's disappearance, as did Mike's sister and mother, and they all supported Mike one hundred percent. On November sixteenth, Mike talked to reporters outside of his house, with Jennifer's mother, Marilyn Way by his side holding his hand. Quote, anyone who knows anything about my wife and daughter, I pray that you'll come forward. That's all we want. I just want them to come home. Just allow them to come home. That's all I ask.

51:12 Please allow them to come home. Marilyn added, quote, if you know how to pray to the heavenly Father, pray to him, ask him to bring these precious people home. The same day, the police said that they now believed at least one of the Blags was likely dead because of the amount of blood found of the crime scene and the length of time that had passed without a visit to the hospital. On November twentieth, Mike appeared on Good Morning America. He made hundreds of pins with lavender ribbons that said Hope, Jennifer and Abbey. He passed them out to friends and neighbors and wore the pin for months whenever he left the house. Six detectives from the Grand Junction Police Department and sixteen officers from the Mesa County's Sheriff's apartment were assigned to the case full time.

51:59 They interviewed all one hundred eighty employees of the Amatech Dixon Company, members of the Monument Baptist Church, and the New Hope Fellowship Church. That's a lot of people that it really is. The search continued throughout the community and the nearby Colorado River. Horse mounted searches were conducted, as well as searches by scent dogs. Mike wanted to join the search effort, but the police would not allow him to participate. He took a leave of absence from his job at AMTEK until January to focus on search efforts. On November sixteenth, a woman named Luela Cross came forward. She was the receptionist at Colorado Rural Legal Services, which provides free legal services to seniors, low income individuals, and victims of domestic violence. Luella said a woman matching Jennifer's description with a little girl in tow had visited her office two weeks earlier. The woman said that she'd recently moved from South Carolina and was a victim of domestic abuse and needed help. She was nervous and scared for her husband to find out that she'd been there. Luela had to turn the woman away because the office wasn't taking on any new cases at the time, so she didn't even get her name. But she thought the little girl looked like Abby and remembered that she had worn overalls.

53:17 Several people confirmed that Abby often wore overalls, but so do a lot of six year old ails. Luela offered to help the woman get a restraining order, but she left the office before she could get any of her information. On November twenty fourth, police got another strange lead to form a woman named Caitlin Bricker. She said that she had received a phone call at her home at twelve fifteen pm on November thirteenth. When she answered the phone, her caller ID said anonymous. She couldn't be sure, but she thought that the voice belonged to a young girl who was crying. The girl said I'm Abby Black and I need your help. She asked her where she was and she said Mexico, but she didn't know where Mexico was.

53:58 She said, I need my mom. Then she said she had to go. Hmmm, I'm pretty sure that was fake. Sounds pretty fake. Yeah. On December seventh, another woman came in with an anonymous tip, but police later identified her as twenty seven year old Julie House. She had seen Mike on television pleading for help finding his wife and daughter. Julie worked as an escort at Baby Doll's Adult Entertainment and she had seen Mike there several times. He identified himself as Steve. Between December two thousand and April two thousand and one, Julie said Steve had come in to see her every two to three weeks. During his lunch hour, he paid sixty dollars for a topless massage with a happy ending. Allegedly, he'd requested other services that Julie or her girls had refused to do. Investigators were able to discern that Jennifer had filled her band with gas on November ninth, verified by a credit card statement, The van had been driven one hundred and twenty five miles between November ninth and November thirteenth, the day Jennifer went missing. Investigators pinpointed Jennifer's whereabouts between the ninth and the thirteenth, and they estimated that she'd driven only thirty four miles. Ninety one miles were unaccounted for. Thought that was really good police work. Yeah, So the question is who drove the van for those ninety one miles.

55:21 So that ninety one miles includes the day of November thirteenth, So your implication there is that somebody maybe drove the van somewhere to get rid of a body somewhere potentially or bodies. I'm not saying that the van, by the way, had been a Valentine scaff from Mike. The previous year, Mike gave Jennifer a scavenger hunt and at the end was a new maroon Ford Windstar minivan. That's pretty nice. That was nice. Finally, on December tenth, some forensic tests came back. The blood in the primary bedroom was confirmed to be Jennifer's. Mike Seaman was found on the comforter. None of Abby's blood was found at the scene. Mike's fingerprints were found on Jennifer's jewelry box, and there were no Errand fingerprints on the jewelry box.

56:08 Interesting. I think we are going to stop there for today. Oh, I need to know what happened. What do you think happened? I don't know. I think where do you think Gabby and Jennifer are? I have no idea. That's why. That's why I don't want to stop, because I'm really curious as to where they might be. I hate to leave you on a cliffhanger, but a lot of good shows are left on a cliffhanger all the time, like Happy Days. Oh, I will be sure to come back for part two. Then you don't have a choice. I have been obsessed with puzzles lately. Have not physical puzzles, but I saw puzzles jig saw puzzles, but the wordle and like the New York Times puzzles I love. I don't like a big crossword because I'm not very good at crosswords, but like the mini crossword. The connections is my favorite strands.

56:59 You do those games sometimes too. Sometimes It's been a while since I've done them. But yeah, there's also the Washington Post games are really good. There's one I really like that's keyword, and they have I'm kind of a Newsy person, so there's this news quiz. So I've been really enjoying the puzzles and usually at twelve am they come out for the next day. If I'm still up, sometimes they. Do them or they do the jump right on it. I just I really enjoy them, especially the New York Times Connections that to me, that one is the most challenging. When it first came out, which I don't know, it was like a year a little over a year ago or a year and a half ago maybe, But you did them all the time too. I did Wordle a lot, and then Connections I did a few times. But yeah, that I kind of dropped off.

57:43 But you love a jigsaw puzzle. I like a jigsaw puzzle. You wouldn't say you love a jigsaw puzzle. Sure, I love a jigsaw puzzle. So I saw something on the news. I didn't realize that there is a World jigsaw puzzle competition. Wow, what do you think the winning time was for a five hundred piece puzzle? Oh gosh, I don't know. For me, everyone is given the same five hundred piece puzzle, and it's an international competition. And I'm assuming it's a challenging puzzle to not like just a simple They it. Was called a challenging puzzle, but not like one of those puzzles where it's like, you know, like all hues of blue or something like that, or an edgeless puzzle of popcorn, which I got you let one year for Christmas. E. Yeah, you absolutely hated it.

58:30 For a five hundred piece puzzle. I mean that would take me at least I don't know, probably five hours, probably more than that. The winning time was just over thirty seven minutes. Oh isn't that crazy? That's crazy. It just just blows my mind. See, that would take the enjoyment out of doing a jigsaw puzzle for me, because to me, the enjoyment is just sort of like losing yourself and not like you kind of shut your brain off while you're doing a jigsaw puzzle and you're just sort of like focused on you know, the piece. Coast talent and a skill that you have. You know, I think some people just you know, are better at spatial relations. Yeah, I'm just saying I wouldn't want pretty good. At spatial relations because you do a puzzle pretty quickly every year, for literally every year for Christmas, you get a thousand piece puzzle, and you do it between Christmas, and it's.

59:22 A good nice way to spend some of your time off. Yeah, you enjoy it, but you don't really want to do puzzles all year round. You kind of just like to do it when you're off right, and sometimes I'll put like one piece in and the kids will help. Yeah, I mean it did a nice way to spend time. But yeah, that blew my mind. Thirty seven minutes or pretty amazing five hundred piece puzzle. It was a puzzle of tigers. Yeah, it's crazy. I didn't know it existed. But it's just a room full of a lot of people and you've got like a table and then there's like this I don't know pad on the table and then you just do your puzzle on top of it. And I'm surprised it's not on like, YESPN eight or whatever they o show.

1:00:02 Is there an ESPN A you just did? Just be the No, that's a that's a reference to the movie Dodgeball. Dodge Ball was on ESPN A yo chow. Oh that's really funny. But yeah, I just I thought that was really interesting. Yeah, before we go, do you want to talk about Little Miss Innocent? Oh? Yeah, that was really uh interesting documentary on Hulu and it's about the case of the murder of Mary Yoder and the person convicted of it was Caitlin Conley. Yeah, and you wrote a two part case back in April that you did. It was a great, very interesting case. Yeah, super interesting case, and the documentary was really well done.

1:00:42 They had interviews with Caitlin Conley. Now, if you haven't listened to the episode yet, I don't want to give any spoilers, so go back and listen. But Caitlyn Conley was convicted of manslaughter in the case of Mary Yoder's death, and she is currently in prison. And you had some when you watch the documentary. We posted them on social media on our Instagram and Facebook, and. I did because it's one of those cases that a lot of people do think that Caitlin is innocent, Like she has a lot of supporters, including some of Mary's family members, like a couple of her sisters are, you know, in Caitlin's court, And there's a website about free Kaitlin Colmly and. Stuff like signs around their town.

1:01:24 Yeah, and it's one of these cases that I feel pretty much one hundred percent that she is guilty. We had received a couple of comments on social media roasting us a little bit, like I can't believe you thought she is guilt. She thinks she's guilty. Yeah, and that's fair. I mean, everybody has an opinion about things like this. I really believe she is guilty. The documentary was, It was very well done. Definitely recommend watching it. It was a three part documentary, but they did leave out a lot of things that I thought were kind of important pieces of evidence, and so I did post we posted on our Instagram kind of a few of those items that you know, kind of helped to supplement what was in the documentary. I think a couple of the things that weren't covered in the documentary that I thought were important. One is that when Mary first got sick, Adam her Son, who basically Caitlyn tried to point the finger at Adam and say said that he probably killed his mom, but he was five hours away from where Mary was. She didn't know that at the time, and so he couldn't have done it, unless potentially he could have, you know, put the poison inside of one of her supplements, and maybe you know, she just happened to take it at the time when he was five hours away, but that seems really unlikely. The other thing that I thought was interesting is that the poison that was purchased, it was purchased using two prepaid credit cards that were bought at a local supermarket. The police, they bluffed Caitlin because they knew she probably did it,

1:02:56 and they basically implied to her that they had surveillance footage of her, which they didn't. But it got her to admit that she did buy the two prepaid credit cards, but she couldn't explain how why they were used to purchase the poison or why she had bought them, So to me, that was really a damning piece of evidence that they didn't cover in the documentary. There were times in the documentary like when it first started, she came across initially as very measured and sweet and kind, and we looked at each other like, oh, we're in trouble because people are going to be coming for us, because we were pretty decisively like, yeah, no one else would have done this but Katie. But as the documentary progresses, you see her masks slip a little bit and the evidence compounds, and I think it becomes pretty obvious that she is gilt.

1:03:48 Yeah, there's a few moments when like they ask her, did you kill Mary Yoda? And she just starts laughing, like very inappropriately and just very strange. Yeah, And I was sad to hear that Adam probably isn't doing great. Yeah, he was not interviewed in the documentary, but his sisters were, and yeah, one of them said that he is not coping very well, that he really blames himself, you know, for a lot of what happened. So it's very said. We try really hard to shake off negative comments that we get. They happen all the time, they're going to happen. We're putting something out for public consumption. But recently someone said something really really unkind about me and I posted on Instagram, and as usual, I tried to make it into a joke and just say haha, you know, but it really did hurt my feelings. And so many of you sent me messages either on social media or DMS or emails telling us that we're doing a good job, and it meant so much to me.

1:04:42 Yeah, it's super nice, and we really really appreciate that. I'm not a person who grew up with a lot of support, so your support means so much to us. So thank you, thank you, and thank you all for listening. If you would like to listen to both parts one and two of this episode right now, join us on Patreon dot com slash Lovemrykill five dollars a month for early ad free access and a monthly bonus episode. Please rate, review, follow on, subscribe, find us on social media, or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. Until next time, don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband,