Jennifer and Sarah Hart

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife, and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina. How are you. I'm doing pretty good. How are you? I am pretty grumpy today, but I'm going to fake it till I make it. I can't imagine why. Why are you so grumpy? I'm just kind of overwhelmed with the state of the world, and I don't know, everything has just been getting to me. We had this horrible shooting last night in Maine, and you know, everything that's going on in the Middle East. I don't want to get anyone else depressed, but it's just really been bothering me. I think I'm I like to pretend that I'm tough, but I'm actually very sensitive and I'm kind of a little struggle just a little bit. Yeah, I know you are, and I know there's a lot of bad stuff going on in the world, for sure. Yeah, and I've got a horrible, horrible story to tell you today. And I think that's actually another reason that I've been struggling a little bit. This case is one that I've wanted to tell since I started it last October, but I was like, I just wasn't ready and I'm still not ready, but it's an important story to tell you.

1:26 Yeah, well, I'm looking forward to it, but we haven't. We haven't recorded in a while because you were so efficient before we left on our trip. So yeah, not since our vacation. Really yeah, let's just briefly. I know people have a short attention span to listen to other people's vacation, but it is kind of pertinent to the podcast. We did do some true crime stuff on our vacation. Well, you made it sound like we wrote here sleuthor solved crime. We solved the Scranton strangler mystery. No, we did. We did go see Lizzie Bordon. Yeah, well we didn't see Lizzie Bordon. No, but we saw her house that she grew up in, and we saw the house on the hill, the fancy house, and we saw her grave and her family's grave. And I know everyone's probably number one question is were you scared? Did you feel anything? And my short answer is no. I thought everyone's number one question would be why did you do that. Well, we said we were going to. I really didn't want to, and it was actually really cool. I normally stuff like that I wouldn't be that into, but it was. It was actually really interesting, and it was more interesting because of you know, because of you doing the episode on lizen Board in quite a while ago, so I knew a little bit more about it than probably if you aren't a true crime person, I wouldn't recommend it. But if you did a long podcast episode on Lizzieboard, you'd probably really into it. Yeah. I thought it was really cool and what we I didn't know. It was kind of pricey.

2:50 Me it was like forty dollars a person. And I thought we were just going to get to see the house. But this fella sat down and told us the story. It is a great story. He was a really good storyteller, and we you know, we we started in the living room and then we went to the dining room, and then we went up to the the room where Abby was killed. And it was I thought it was it was pretty interesting. That was We also went to Salem. We did go to Salem. Uh it was it's cheesy, but yeah, I had a good time. Yeah, it was fun, and we went to Boston. We did the Freedom Trail and we saw Niagara Falls from the Canada side, which we had never seen. Was stunning, which obviously it's stunning. Went to the Frank Lloyd Right Falling Well, we did. Yeah, that was amazing too, And we stayed in the Oh. I love that little airbnb so much. I love I love like a good air and Airbnb. A lot of them have been taken over kind of yb you don't mean the last one, the one that we stayed in. That was actually pretty funny.

3:50 That one could have been the home of a serial killer. Very possible. That was pretty funny because if you've ever been to that area in Pennsylvania, mill and it's very remote, Yes, very very remote. We didn't download our directions because you just don't really have to do that anymore. We lost our GPS signal. We had no idea where we were. Really it was Friday in the thirteen. It was was just baffled my way and I had seen picked. They're not a lot of options for airbnb's out there, but I found this place. I'm like, and I am I'm I'm picky, but I was like, it's good enough, you know, And so I just booked it. It wasn't super expensive and it was like ten minutes away from Falling Water. And like I said, we got lost. And then we get there and the caretaker lives there, like not in the little cottage that we were in, but that's always creepy. Yeah, and it was.

4:44 It was getting dark when we got there, and the house is like down the hill near the woods, and it's sort of like hard to find. It was really hard to yeah, yeah, if you're in the right place or not. And then there was nothing in the cabin that was newer than nineteen eighty. And I'm not exaggerating, right, Actually I am exaggering a little because there were some VHS tapes that were a little a little newer. There were some DVDs. But it was it was fun and really we were we were actually a little scared because you'd have to see the cabin. But it was it was nice and it had everything we needed. But it was just like creepy grandma's house. It was definitely like the type of place you might see in a horror movie. Oh for sure. Yeah, we survived. We had fun. Yeah, and then we came home and and we actually were heading out to Marquette this weekend to see our son. We have not seen since August. It's crazy, yeah, crazy, And we've talked to him like twice much. We talked to him a little bit, but he's a busy guy. And uh, well, yeah, so we're gonna go to Marquette, which is seven is sh hours away? Yeah, long, another long drive. So anyway, speaking to our son, I made him some cookies and I get to have one too, and I made Yeah, so this is going to be your snack for the day. And you know you heard me swearing in the kitchen when I dropped you dropped them all? Oh I didn't drop them all, but I dropped more of them than I would have liked. Yeah, so, uh, black and white cookie. It looks delicious. Ye, it's one of his favorites. And

6:15 I well it's one of your use. I love all the cookies. Really all right, you want to take a quick break, Yeah, sure, right back. Well, as always, that was delicious, thank you. Well, someone who's listening doesn't know what a black and white cookie is. It's pretty much just a short bread cookie and half of it is chocolate and frosted with chocolate and half is frosted with vanilla frosting. Yeah. Is it made famous by some bakery somewhere or something? Or is it I think it's a New York Deli thing, but I could totally be wrong. Yeah. All very good? All right, So today's episode is a hard one. It involves children and abuse, and while it's not particularly graphic, I do want to give a content warning. Please listen with care. The drive along Highway one and Northern California is breathtaking. The road tightly hugs the coastline, creating a myriad of twists and turns. The road curves along the terrain, with the Pacific Ocean lapping the rocky beaches below. The air is crisp and clean, with a vista that will never cease to captivate you. Guardrails line much of the highway, but there are stretches where the view is unencumbered.

7:26 The drop to the ocean and cliffs below is steep. On March twenty sixth, twenty eighteen, a German woman who was visiting Northern California noticed an unusual sight when she stopped at a scenic turnout along the highway about two hundred miles north of San Francisco in Mendocino County, at the bottom of a one hundred and forty foot cliff along the Pacific Ocean, she spotted a crumpled and overturned two thousand and three GMC Yukon Excel on the rocky beach below. She called nine one one. Emergency responders arrived minutes later at four forty five PM, then repelled to the bottom of the cliffs and found five bodies among the wreckage. Oh my gosh. Jennifer and Sarah Hart, both thirty eight, were found in the partially submerged, overturned vehicle. Jen was in the driver's seat and her wife, Sarah was in the back of the vehicle, pinned between the collapsed roof and the seats. Three of their six children, Marcus nineteen, Abigail and Jeremiah, both fourteen, were thrown from the vehicle and found nearby. The three other Hart children were missing, Hannah sixteen, Davante fifteen, and Sierra twelve. No one was wearing a seat belt. When the vehicle's computer was later analyzed, it indicated the Yukon pulled off of Highway One into the scenic turnout which lacked a guard rail. Jen stopped for a moment before she floored the gas pedal. The Yukon only traveled seventy feet and reached the speed of twenty miles per hour before it floated off into the abyss and crashed at the bottom of the cliffs over one hundred feet below. Was this

8:58 a terrible action or a planned murder? Gosh, I don't know. Whatever it is, it's horrible, I know. I'm sorry. It's a sad story. Jennifer Hart and Sarah Gngler were both born in nineteen seventy nine in South Dakota, about one hundred and fifty miles from each other. Jen was the oldest of three children and Sarah was the oldest of four. They both grew up in small, nearly all white towns. They met and fell in love in nineteen eighty nine at age twenty, while studying at Northern State University in Aberdeen, South Dakota, where they both were education majors, Sarah specializing in special education. She graduated in two thousand and two with a four point zero GPA, but Jen dropped out after Sarah's graduation a semester. Shy from graduation They shared a love of the outdoors, spending their free time hiking, camping, kayaking, and attending Bohemian music festivals. Sarah was engaged for a time after high school, but broke it off before college. Jen and Sarah introduced each other as friends or roommates. They were a couple, but very discreet. However, later when they moved to Minnesota, they lived openly as a couple. They were both estranged from their families after their deaths. The family said their estrangement had nothing to do with Jen and Sarah's sexual orientation, but after they'd voiced concerns over the heart's parenting style, they severed ties.

10:20 A relative of Jen said she often erupted at the children, quote, the kids couldn't do anything without getting into trouble. If the kids did anything she thought was wrong, she would snap her fingers and say get in the corner. No food for you. Jen wouldn't have anything to do with you if you disagreed with her end quote. Sarah and her mother had once been very close, but after Sarah and Jen became a couple, she felt that Jen made Sarah choose between her and her family. In two thousand and five, Sarah legally changed her last name to Heart. They married in two thousand and nine in Connecticut. Same sex marriage wasn't yet legal in Minnesota, where they lived with all six of their adopted children present. I know, I'm kind of getting ahead of myself with the kids. We're going to circle back to the adoption. Jen was outgoing and friendly, but also assertive and controlling, especially with Sarah and the children. She was the rebel of the two.

11:11 In college, she'd been arrested for shoplifting. Sarah was more reserved, passive, and introverted. In two thousand and four, Jen and Sarah moved to Alexandria, Minnesota, where they both worked at a store called her Burgers. Her Burgers. I did say that very real her Burgers, which I was like researching it, just really quick. And Burgners where I grew up, that was an offshoot of her Burgers, and my mom actually worked at Burgners. So interesting. Yeah, I think they are a lot of business. It's weird how many department store chains have gone out of business. Sarah was a manager and Jen worked in the junior's department. They were in their mid twenties when they applied to become foster parents, a fifteen year old girl came to live with them. Friends recalled the couple being challenged by parenting an older child. I mean, of course they were. Jen complained to a friend that the girl ate out of the garbage, wasn't very smart, wouldn't do a homework, and was hard to discipline. Jen and Sarah started the process of adoption shortly after. They told their foster daughter that she was going to be a big sister, and she was very excited. It's unclear how long she lived with Sarah and Jen. I think about a year and a half.

12:26 But one day they dropped her off at her therapist's office and never returned. She was reassigned to a new foster home with no explanation from Jen and Sarah. They never said goodbye. Wow. She felt pardon, that's kind of cold. It was horrible. She felt abandoned and devastated. She never had contact with them again. Gratefully, her next foster family, a youth pastor and his wife, welcomed her with open arms. Jen and Sarah told their foster daughter's caseworker that they had found a suicide note and a noose under her bed, and they couldn't have someone mentally unstable around their newly adopted children, so they needed to sever ties with her. And that wasn't true, the foster daughter said. Jen and Sarah lied. She'd never been suicidal and definitely never ate food from the trash. And if it was true, there's no reason to abandon your foster child without even saying goodbye or you know well, and I think you know. Gen and Sarah at this time were about twenty five, and they were a little immature. Yeah, weren't ready to be parents, especially to a fifteen year old. In an interview with The Seattle Times, the Heart's former foster daughter, who was chosen to remain anonymous, said the first six months were good with Gen and Sarah. There was no abuse or withholding of food. They exposed her to new adventures, such as camping and the music festivals they loved. As time passed, Jen became moodier and often with Drue, choosing to spend time alone. They began arguing more typical parent teenager issues. The foster daughter worked at Subway during high school

13:56 and was required to turn her paychecks over to Gen, given only a small allowance. Today, though she's doing well, and she has a child of her own. She has a relationship with both her birth mother as well as her former foster parents. She forgives the hearts and she doesn't believe that they were capable of killing their children. So a week after abandoning their foster daughter, in September two thousand and six, Jen and Sarah welcomed Marcus seven, Hannah four, and Abigail two from Texas. The children's birth mother had several mental health issues and little outside support after several difficult interactions with CPS Child Protective Services exactly, so, there's several states in this story, and I refer to I know that some states it's DCFS, but I'm going to just refer to it as CPS Child Protective Services. So she relinquished her parental rights, hoping her children would have a better life. She had hoped for an open adoption and to be able to see her children. She was shocked when her children were sent to live in Minnesota, thousand of miles away. She sunk into a deep depression when she wasn't able to receive any updates on Marcus, Hannah, and Abigail. Here's an excerpt from Jen's Facebook post describing the first twenty four hours of the heart's adoption journey. It was unforgettable in all the ways we weren't expecting. We had no idea what challenges we would be facing in the coming months and years. I can't even begin to imagine what it would be like for a child that had lived their entire life with inconsistency,

15:28 abuse, and neglect to be swooped twelve hundred miles away to a new place with a promise of this time it will be different. This is how the first twelve hours of motherhood was for us. The youngest urinated anywhere but the bathroom several times and fell down a flight of stairs, resulting in a bloody gash on her chin. The middle child pulled out chunks of hair and smeared feces on the wall, engorged herself with food until she started choking and needed the Heimlich, resulting in episodes of projectile vomiting. The oldest banged his head repetitively on a rock wall until we were able to safely restrain him. Blood was involved. This was a result of not giving him a king sized tutsi roll that he requested At nine p m. It took hours to calm him and get him to a place where we could leave him in his room to sleep. We were physically and mentally obliterated by this time. We went to bed absolutely terrified as a million thoughts ran through our minds. As we drifted off to sleep, we were abruptly reminded that our day was far from over.

16:30 Loud crashes, banging, in strange sounds, slash voices from above us resulted in us sprinting upstairs to find the eldest in a closet. He told us he was possessed by demons as he growled, clad, and spoke in multiple voices while continuing to thrash, bite, and bang his head on the wall. My heart was breaking as I was terrified. I was terrified for him, and it would be disingenuous if I didn't admit I was afraid of what he could do to the others as well. Hours passed before we were able to get him to sleep. That night, just when it seemed like we could breathe again, the youngest had an asthma attack and stopped breathing. A one am er visit followed. I didn't sleep at all for the first forty eight hours of parenthood. I cried a lot. What had we done?

17:15 We had no experience with these kinds of things. We questioned everything. When the social worker called to check in after the first night, we related everything, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Her response, just give them whatever they want. We were dumbfounded. That's it, that's the golden advice, and that moment I knew what to do. We could not give up on these kids. Before we were matched with these children, they were going to be separated and adopted into two different families, with the oldest placed and a residential treatment facility. How can a child even know what they want when they haven't even been gifted with what they need? If not us, who at twenty five years old? We didn't have any parenting experience under our belts, but we had boltloads of blood of compassion, intelligence, and the natural instincts to navigate these wild and unchartered waters. There was no way on earth we were going to toss these children back into the incredibly broken and abysmal foster care system. It was long. I just I'm not sure how much of it I believe, especially when you said the social workers said, just give them whatever they want. I have a very hard time believing one of four year old sumearing feces on a wall. Yeah, and the kids, as far as we know, weren't developmentally delayed, and if they were, it was slight, slight delays. Two years later, in February two thousand and nine, the Hart family expanded when they adopted Davante five, Jeremiah four, and Sierra three, also from Texas. The state of Texas

18:45 gives adoptees a monthly cash stipend for each child adopted from the foster care system, as much as five hundred dollars per child, in addition to SSI Supplemental Security Income if the child has been she needs. The Hearts likely received the SSI benefits for at least two of the children. The money from Texas made up about fifty percent of the Heart's income. Wow, I know, I didn't know that was a thing for her. Very surprised after the children, but I think it's because they pulled them out of the foster system and adopted them Before DeVante, Jeremiah, and Sierra went to Minnesota to live with Jen and Sarah. The children had been living with their aunt Priscilla Celestine, their father's sister. Priscilla Celestine was a good and loving caregiver, a faithful churchgoer with a steady job. She really wanted the children to be in her care so they could be around family and not be separated. She loved them deeply.

19:41 Foster parents are given a monthly stipe stipend for living cost and medical care, but if the foster parent is a relative, they're not qualified to receive any money. Priscilla's finances were stretched thin to keep the children. She needed to move from her two bedroom apartment to a four bedroom home. The children's mother, Sherry, struggled with crack cocaine addiction. Jeremiah tested positive for cocaine at birth, and Cherry tested positive for cocaine at Sierra's birth, so the second and third children. In order for Priscilla to be able to adopt the children, Sherry was required to relinquish her parental rights and was forbid from seeing the children. She agreed in order to prevent them from entering the foster care system or to be adopted by another family, or possibly become separated. Priscilla desperate for childcare when she was called to work an extra shift one day asked Sherry if she could come stay with the children. Sherry maintained her sobriety over long periods of times, and this was one of those times. CPS happened to show up that day for an impromptu visit. The children were immediately taken away from Priscilla, no second chance chances. There was no evidence that Sherry had been using drugs during her visit, but she just Priscilla fodtheart to regain custody, but the children were sent to Minnesota despite her best efforts. Priscilla was devastated. And to me, that's just you know, she had one

21:11 chance. Yeah, and the children, I mean there were, you know, thousands of miles away. Heartbreaking. She really did love them and she wanted she wanted to keep them. Cherry relapsed after she learned about her children's death. She had always hoped to get them back somehow. But she is clean and sober now and has been for many years. And she went on to have former children, and I think that some of them ended up in CPS two. Cherry told the Oregonian quote, they're so quick to snatch children from people like us, but once they're adopted, they don't even check on them. End quote. She hopes that she can bring her children's bodies back to Texas so they can be closer to her. Davante, Jeremiah, and Sierra had another brother, Dante, who was eight at the time of the adoption. He had extreme discipline challenges and wasn't considered adoptable at the time.

22:06 After he was separated from his siblings, he attempted suicide. An eight year old attempting suicides just devastating. Yeah, that's really not horrible. Yeah, he was institutionalized in a mental hospital for a time where he was over medicated for a variety of psychological issues by polar disorder ADHD and oppositional defiant disorder. And once a child receives those diagnoses, it's hard to get out of the system. It's hard to get out of the system, and it makes you kind of, you know, unadoptable. Yeah. I'm not saying that Dante did not have those disorders, but the person that diagnosed him probably spent an hour with him and gave him that diagnosis that would follow him for you know, the rest of his life. Dante requested many times to have contact with his siblings, but Jen and Sarah did not allow it. He was placed in eleven different FOSS homes until he aged out of the system. And the more placements a child has, the more unfavorable the outcome. Yeah, I can imagine. Dante's file was foury seven hundred pages long. Very complicated case.

23:14 Sometime in two thousand and nine, Jen and Sarah decided to expand their family again. Sarah used IVF and got pregnant, but later miscarried. They also started the process of adopting twins from Texas, one with cerebral palsy, but it fell through Permanent Family Resource Center, the agency that Jen and Sarah used for their adoptions, had a history of violations, including a failure to properly conduct home studies for pending placements. The agency's license was suspended for two years in two thousand and nine and closed permanently in twenty twelve. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back, Okay. So the Heart family have now there's now six of them and their family is complete.

24:03 They're not going to adopt it. They tried to adopt another. They tried to have a one through IVF and that neither of those worked. Out right, and I don't think I've said this. Both Sarah and Jen are white, and the six kids are some of them are black, and some of them are of mixed. Okay. People who knew the Heart Tribe, a name coined by their friends, were in awe of the close knit, beautiful family. The children exuded joy, always smiling and well behaved. They thought the machinery of their family was well oiled and ran seamlessly. I showed you some pictures of the kids last night, do you remember. Yeah, they looked like a lovely family. There's beautiful children. Yeah, yeah, the pictures you showed me. Everyone looked happy and it looked like a really like a perfect family. Here's a brief clip of a friend talking about the family.

24:52 Before I actually met the Hearts, I heard about these these kids that would come to these festivals that I attend, people mentioning like, oh, you know the Heart kids. They give free hugs. I heard, Oh, these two brave lesbian women went against all odds and adopted numerous children and are giving them this unprecedented life. Really that no child is so lucky to have. These kids were just pure joy. All they could do is just smile. From ear to ear. They were always like propped up on people's shoulders, dancing in the crowd. The memories of that are so sweet.

25:40 They were a unit. Jins seemed to be leading the most exceptional life. This super mom, this champion of racial reconciliation, willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good of these beautiful children. We all felt like we were along for the ride. Are you at all familiar with these music festivals. They're like days long festivals where people are doing like dancing in yoga and it's just a very spiritual kind of I'm familiar with like Lollapalooza music festival like that, but this sounds like a little bit different. Yeah, one of them is called the Beloved Festival. But people travel around and go to these different festivals.

26:27 Okay, a little more spiritual in nature, I guess definitely. Jen and Sarah wanted their children to be socially conscious and attended many Black Lives Matter protests and Bernie Sanders rallies as well as the musical music festivals. One such music festival was called the Beloved Festival. Attendees gathered off and wearing costumes to share their love of music, art, yoga, and culture. The Heart tribe would show up wearing costumes, matching shirts or jean jackets. Often Sarah would have to stay home and work. She worked long hours to support the family, usually six days a week. Friends thought they were the perfect family. However, it was rare that anyone was invited to the Heart Home to observe their home life. No one knew what was happening behind the closed doors.

27:14 In two thousand and eight, Hannah, aged six, was found to have bruising on her arm by her teacher. When the teacher asked her what happened, she said she had been beaten with the belt. No charges were filed. The mothers told CPS that Hannah had fallen down the stairs. Jen and Sarah removed the children from school until the next fall. The adoption of DeVante, Jeremiah and Sarah was finalized quickly despite the child abuse claim. Oh wow, doesn't seem right. No, and I guess I didn't really specify this, but when they went to live with them, there's like a six month waiting period before the adoption was finalized, and this claim happened in that six months, though it should have been investigated much more thoroughly than it was.

28:00 Twenty eleven, six complaints were filed with Minnesota CPS against Sarah and Jen for physical abuse and withholding food from their children. Abby six, was very small for her age, the size of a two year old. She was seen rummaging through the trash at school looking for food. On several occasions. Abbey's teacher noticed bruises on her back, extending from her shoulders to her waist and on her chest. Abby told her teacher their parents thought that she had stolen a penny and held her head held underwater and they hit her with their fists. Her teacher stopped telling her mothers about her taking food when she realized that Abby was being punished at home for this. Abby named Jen as her abuser, but Sarah took the blame. Sarah was arrested and she told law enforcement that she had angrily hit Abby while she was leaning her over the edge of the bathtub. Sarah was given community service and one year of probation.

28:56 Hannah also had hunger issues at school when came to school hungry, and her friends would give her food. Not much makes me matter than people not feeding their kids. Yeah, like that's not the way to punish your kids. Yeah, you don't. You shouldn't reward your kids with food. You shouldn't take food away, like unless it's like, you know, like, oh, you were naughty today, you don't get dessert something right, minor like that. But yeah, starving your kids is never okay. Starving your kids and then sending them to school is just it just really upsets me. And January twenty eleven, the school nurse called Sarah when Hannah said she hadn't eaten all day. Sarah accused Hannah of quote playing the food card and told school officials to just give her water. The Hearts again found themselves under investigation by CPS. The children were interviewed and according to the Minnesota Star Tribune quote, the children talked about not getting supper, getting sent to bed without food, being made to stay in bed all day, or stand in the corner for a long time end quote. Jen claimed that the kids had food issues that no one understood because of their traumatic pasts. Others came forward and told CPS that they saw Jennifer Hart forcing the children to lay on the ground in a dark room for four to seven hours, grabbing and dragging the children and not allowing anyone to say Happy Birthday to Marcus. Beginning in April twenty eleven, Jen homeschooled the children. They never again attended public school, taking away a huge safety net from the already vulnerable children. Boy, it's never a good

30:30 sign. No. Jen claimed her family was targeted and bullied in the conservative Minnesota community they lived in because of their alternative lifestyle. She said the tires on her car were slashed and their house was egged, but none of those claims were ever proven. The Hearts moved to Westland, Oregon, outside of Portland, in twenty thirteen, thinking the liberal community would be a better fit for their modern family. Two years later, a case was opened there by CPS for allegations of abuse in male nourishment. Medical records showed that in twenty thirteen, five of the six Heart children were so small and thin that they didn't even registered on the standard growth chart used by pediatricians. That's that is really very small and very thing. Yeah, And did the kids not go to school when they went to Oregon either? Were they still owned school?

31:18 Were still home school? At age eleven, Hannah weighed just fifty pounds and was forty eight inches tall, about the size of a six year old. Davante weighed fifty seven pounds and was fifty inches at age eleven, about the size of an eight year old. Jen would say that the children were healthy and slim because of their organic vegetarian diet. Oregon CPS closed the case after five months, concluding that there were signs, but there was not enough evidence of neglect or abuse in the Heart home to prolong their investigation, despite two eye witnesses reporting harsh punishments and withholding of food. The problem, a CPS employee, said, was that Jen and Sarah just looked so normal. They didn't look like child abusers. Whatever that mean? Yeah, what does the child abuser look like? Exactly? It would be an ongoing theme for years to come. Jen and Sarah were attractive, educated, and Jen could talk her way out of just about any situation. A CPS official said in their report that the mothers were good at deflecting and blaming the children for incidents in their home. The report also noted that the children all gave the same answers when questioned and lacked emotion. It was obvious they had been coached their punishment for misbehaving. They told CPS was just to meditate for five minutes. One of the people who reported Gen and Sarah to CPS was a friend the family had visited. They ordered pizza, and the friend thought it was odd that each child was only given one slice of pizza. Have you ever met a kid in your life that has eaten one piece of pizza? No? The

32:50 next morning, the leftover pizza was gone. Someone had eaten it in the middle of the night. Jen took each child to the bathroom and questioned them, but none of them owned up to eating the pizza. She refused the children breakfast and made them all lay down on a bed for four to five hours during the day wearing a blindfold with their arms by their sides. That's horrible, and that's what she did at a friend's house, So what is she doing in their own home? Yeah, exactly. The friend talked to Jen about the unfair punishment, but she angrily brushed her off. She later told authorities that the heart children were all much too thin, and they ran a quote regimented boot camp for true kindness, love and respect for the children was largely absent. Did I'm just curious, did Jennifer and Sarah have any eating issues themselves or anything. It seems like food is like a big part of the way that they decided to punish their kids where they overweight, underweight.

33:45 Any issues that you know of their no, they both they both looked very normal. Sarah was definitely on the thin side. Actually, I know that she was five six, one hundred and twenty pounds because of her autopsy. But Jen was heavier and actually, at the time of her death, friend said that she hadn't seen her in a while. It looked like she was twenty five pounds heavier than she had ever been before. So both of the women are pretty active and in good shape. In Oregon, homeschoolers are required to register their children with a local school district since the deaths of two girls who were removed from schools by their parents and later died. Ten year old Miranda Crockett was withdrawn from public school five months before her father's girlfriends drowned her in a bathtub, and she was cut off from trusted adults with whom she could confide in. In two thousand and nine, a fifteen year old girl, Jeanette Mables, was killed by her mother and her stepfather after a severe beating. Her friends and family had attempted to contact CPS to act in her case. After years of being abused and starved. She had been in foster care for five years, but was returned to her mother, who homeschooled her. After their deaths Oregon CPS vowed to be more diligent in following up on fire reports, especially among homeschooled children who don't have access to traditional community supports like schools, churches, or medical services after parents have isolated them.

35:10 Heartbreaking. Oh god. Yeah. Attorney David Paul is working on making CPS more accountable, but he said, quote, trying to make this agency accountable is like trying to push a freightliner with a canoe paddle. They are interested in maintaining the status quo. People call the hotline expecting something is going to happen, but they are dropped into the ABYSS without any rope end quote. I have to believe there's like a funding issue, just a resource issue there too. It's not I can't believe that people at CPS are like bad people, that they just don't care about this stuff. I have to believe they're very overworked and just don't have the resources well, it's not the caseworkers, and a good friend of ours is a CPS caseworker. It's the system and they can only do so much and they are given to many cases. And this is an ongoing problem in this case that we're talking about today, And I wish I had the answers, but I don't know. They were just failed by the system. But the system is, the system is broken, so it's like it's just impossible. The Heart children were never officially registered as homeschoolers with the state after their move, which is illegal. Davante Heart was the most magnetic, outgoing Heart child. His effrofescent personality and bright smile captivated everyone he met. Did I say Effrofestant's funny? Pretty good? Oh boy?

36:36 He had a way of being noticed. Everyone loved him from a young age. He wore a sign around his neck that said free Hugs when his family attended public events. Friends recall his hugs being tight and full of love. Like having your kid wear a free hugs shirt. A little strange had not a free hug shirt but a sign. It's just I don't really I wouldn't want a bunch of people touching my kid. Yeah, do we know if that was his idea to do that or if it was, what do you think, I mean, probably not, but it does sound like he was like an outgoing kid. Well, you were a loving kid, but I'm sure it wasn't like, hey, moms, I have an idea. Yeah. In twenty fourteen, while attending a Black Lives Matter rally in Portland, Oregon, after police officers were acquitted of wrongdoing in the death of Michael Brown and Ferguson, Missouri, an image of Davante went viral. He was wearing his free Hug sign along with a leather jacket and a stylish patterned royal blue fedora when a white police officer in rei gear asked him for a hug.

37:34 And the photo is the too embrace. The officer has a slight smile and tears are rolling down DeVante's face. His face is full of emotion. This picture was coined the hug felt around the world a sign of hope and racial healing. But of course that's way too much pressure to put on an eleven year old child. And I showed you this picture. I mean, it's a beautiful it's a beautifulictuture. Yeah, it really is. It does it. It makes you tear up, just like looking at the picture. Yeah, it's full, just full of emotion in his little basement. Here's a short clip. As someone around here said today, what the world needs now might just be what we see in this photo. After days of disturbing media imagery surrounding the Ferguson grand jury decision, there's this in the midst of an emotional rally in Portland, Oregon, police Sergeant Brett Barnum and twelve year old Davonte Hart. And it turns out Davante has a remarkable story himself.

38:25 Born to a drug addicted mother and into a violent life. He and his two siblings were adopted into a loving family, and Davante was at that rally with a message of peace and holding a sign offering free hugs. Sergeant Barnum asked if he might have one. Brian Williams remember him, I do, yeah, kind of a fall from grace. I didn't remember what happened, but I figured he must have had some kind of must have gotten canceled somehow. Well, he got put like on a I think he might have been suspended for a while, but then he went to like the late late late late news embellish some stories, and it wasn't clear if he had false memories or he was lying. Knowing more about the heart children struggles at home puts the famous picture in a different light. Was DeVante hoping this officer could save him and his siblings? I would not have I would not have guessed that.

39:20 I guess, but now that you say that, maybe that is a possibility. Or did he not want to hug the officer? And Jen kind of like, oh, go hug. Oh, so you think the tears were like he was him doing this against his will? Maybe? Yeah, well it did. I mean, it does seem organic. He looks very genuine. It does look very genuine. Of course we'll post that. Jen later posted the photo on Facebook with a following caption, my son has a heart of gold, compassion beyond anything I've ever experienced, yet struggles with living fearlessly when it comes to the police and people who don't understand the complexity of racism that is prevalent in our society. It was one of the most emotionally charged experiences I've ever had as a mother. End quote. So she's saying his tears were because he was fearful like living in fear of the police.

40:10 I think she was just talking about racism in general, like he was just devastated by racism, Davante told The Oregonian when asked why he was giving hugs during the twenty fourteen Portland protest. Quote, I was trying to show peace that there is a different way to handle it. End quote. Davante was definitely Jen's favorite. He understood the role and he was that he was required to play and shined in it. It seemed that he received special treatment as the favorite child, which brings us to Jen's social media posts and online life. Jen was deeply involved in an online gaming community called oz Broken Kingdom.

40:51 Have you ever heard of this? No? I haven't. I think it has something to do with a Wizard of Oz, but I don't really know anything about it. Jen' spen hours and hours each day playing the game, often ignoring the children. She was the co leader of a clan. A clan, do you know what that is? I assume it's just a group within the game, like a team. It's a group of about fifty people that form a team and play the game together to defeat other teams. Her responsibilities as a co leader in the game required her to play as long as twelve to fourteen hours a day. She I can't imagine playing again, and she didn't work outside the homes Sarah was the breadwinner of the family and Jen stayed home and well she was homeschooling the kids right in between her twelve hours of gameplaying. She was competitive and always at the top of the leader board.

41:39 Her team was ranked second worldwide. She was very social with the other members of her clan and was well liked by the group until she abruptly left the game in the summer of twenty seventeen. Allegedly there was some dispute among the players, and Jen really didn't like anyone questioning her authority. A friend of hers from the gaming community said, with the amount of hours that she spent playing the game, there was no way she would have been able to provide her six children with an education because the game was so immersive and time consuming and expensive. We six six kids to homeschool with different levels and different grades. That's a lot. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And Jen was known for her lengthly effusive, sentimental and political posts on Facebook. Her post portray a perfectly imperfect family which I'm going to tell you personally, the people, the influencers that are always posting our Ruby Frankie episode we talk about reminding me a lot about this episode, the perfectly imperfect bloggers and social media.

42:45 It drives me nuts, Like, oh, this is our family. We're a mess, but we all just drives me nuts. Jen was a skilled photographer and was good at posting the children to get the most impactful shots the children beautiful with bright smiles. She posted frequent photos of the children gardening, raising chickens, and reading books in the woods. And this was their homeschool curriculum. And a Facebook post from twenty fourteen, Chan wrote about a visit to the grocery store and I'm going to have you read it if you don't mind. Sure. An elderly man was standing at the end of the bagging area conversing with the woman checking us out. He spots our son, looks him up and down. Man, I can tell you're going to be a baseball player when you grow up. Son pauses, tilts his head and gives a closed mouth grin. Actually, no, baseball isn't really my thing.

43:37 Man. Well, I can tell you're going to be a ballplayer. Son as his mom. I can tell there's a slight frustration inside of him. No, I don't even play baseball. Check out, lady. Oh, I bet you're going to be a basketball or soccer player, then, son, No, I don't play any sports. It's just not my thing. There's nothing wrong with sports or anything. I just have other interests. Check lady, In a befuddled, nearly astonished voice, what I have never met a kid that looks like you that doesn't play sports? Man, chuckling, Right, never, they all do. My face was as red as my hair at this point. It was so obviously clear what was happening. While I wanted so badly to step in and protect my son from the ongoing racial stereotyping, I didn't. I let him step into his own power, and he handled it brilliantly. Son, Well, of course you've never met a kid like me. I'm one of a kind. There's not another person like me. Man, Well, what do you want to be when you grow up? Son? I'm here to help people. I'm here to inspire now. Man, Oh, so you're going to be a doctor, as he laughed while he said it, not kidding, Son, No, I'm not man, While being a doctor is the best way to help people.

44:54 What are you going to do to help and inspire people? Son, putting the last of the bag in the cart. I'm going to be myself no matter how much people try to make me something. I am not. Have a great night, flashes ginormous smile. I think this kid will be all right no matter what is tossed at him. What did you think of that? Just? I mean, I don't know what to think of it. I think it's all made up, is what I think. Yeah, I don't think people talk like that. I don't. I don't. I mean, I know there is stereotyping for sure, and so I don't doubt that that happens to people, But that just whole it just sounds like a made up story for social media. I have never met a kid that looks like you that doesn't play sports. I mean, come on, And the way like the punctuation in this post is just yeah, I don't know. It just all gives me a big dick. Yep. Well, thank you for reading that. You did a splendid job. One of the friends who contacted CPS said, quote, the kids pose and are made to look like one big, happy family, but after the photo event, they go back to looking lifeless. A hug heard around the world got a lot of attention and a request for interviews. Jen claimed that they received offers to make a reality show. She refused, saying she wanted to protect her children's right to privacy, but in reality, she was probably afraid the Heart family if they received too much attention the CPS reports would become public and jeopardize her custody of the kids and the checks that continued to come from the state of Texas. Jen

46:25 said she got a lot of hate and death threats after the attention the hug garnered. People said the picture was posed, or Davante was an actor, or DeVante was crying because she had forced him to hug the police officer. After the fierce reaction to the picture, the family became more reclusive and was seen in public less frequently. Jen took a six month hiatus from Facebook and social media after posting the following I understand many of you have stumbled upon the dark side of the media. As of late, things have been twisted and used for various reasons. I can't control that, and I cannot allow that to control me. What other people think is none of my business. I know what really happened and how Davante truly feels about that encounter, and that's all that matters to us. So she did have a big social media presidence, and then she kind of withdrew a little bit. I'm a little surprised to hear that, actually, because it seems like they really thrived. Did they really, you know, like that was she attention? But after the hug picture, they really did get some departs. Yeah, they were legitimate.

47:32 I saw some of them, and you know that is unpleasant, and you can't You can't blame her for that. You can blame her for a lot of other things. So I should have said earlier, like DeVante when they were asking him if he played baseball and he said no, Well, the kids never left the darn house. How could they be on a baseball team? Good point. As far as I know, they didn't do any activities outside of the home. Yeah, okay, this is where the story starts, starts to take a little turn. Okay. In twenty seventeen, the Hearts moved to Woodland, Washington. They bought a house in an unincorporated secluded area. Sarah worked at a Kohle's department store as an assistant manager, working long hours, while Jen continued to stay home with the kids, sometimes traveling to music festivals or national parks. In September twenty seventeen, the Heart's neighbors, Dana and Bruce to Kelb, were awoken by frantic knocking on their front door. Hannah Hart, whom the Kelbs hadn't been familiar with, ran into their house begging them for help. They had briefly met Sarah Hart, but they didn't even know children were living next door. Hannah was wrapped in a blanket and covered in BlackBerry brambles and scratches from running through the woods that separated the properties at night after jumping out of a second story window. She was sixteen years old at the time, but that Kelbs thought she was seven or eight. Her front teeth were missing. She frantically told them that her parents were abuse of racists and they beat her with a belt. Outside, her family was calling her name and searching for her with flashlights. She ran

49:04 up the stairs and hid in the corner of the Kelb's bedroom and begged them not to tell her parents where she was. Her mother's barged into the house and explained that Hannah had been having a rough time with her brother, but assured them that she was fine. Jennifer made Hannah apologize for the incident. She stayed and talk with the neighbors and told them that the kids were all drug babies and that Hannah's birth mother had bipolar disorder, which she did, but still that didn't mean that Hannah had right polar disorder. She claimed that Hannah was twelve and small for her age. Remember she was sixteen sixteen. Her front teeth had been knocked out in an accident, and Hannah allegedly didn't want them replaced, which, yeah, right, and he's sixteen year old and would be fine. Yeah. At six thirty am the morning after the incident with Hannah, I'm sure that the Kelps were really happy, like four hours later to hear them knocking at the door. At their door, the t Keel received a letter from her that read, Dear Dana and Bruce, I stopped by this morning because I feel horrible about disturbing your peace and worrying you in the middle of the night. I was very frustrated with my brother and didn't handle things very maturely and I'm sorry for telling lies to get attention.

50:15 I am working on being more honest and finding better ways to communicate my frustrations. I've been pretty sad about two of my cats dying recently, so I was just very sad and frustrated last night. Thank you for being kind Hannah. Yeah, that sounds exactly like something a sixteen year old would write. I mean, I was so happy when she escaped. I was like, go, Hanna, get out of there. Dana wanted to report the Hearts for child abuse, but Bruce encouraged her to stay out of the matter. Dana told her dad Steve, the bizarre story. He couldn't stop thinking of Hannah and the trouble she might be in. He called the police in November of twenty seventeen. There's some kids that I feel is being highly abused. And how I know. Okay, I'm going to give to the address of my daughter house because it's right next door. Yeah, if you're going up the road to her house, it's a house on the right, okay.

51:06 And what's going on there, Well, they have black children with that part doesn't matter, and they're new here. But the other night the little girls jumped out of the second story window on the roof and then down onto the ground and ran to my daughter. And this is like two in the morning, begging them to help her, to help her, and when they came looking for her, if she was begging my daughter not to let them know she was there. And then eventually my son in law let him know. He doesn't want to get involved. But the more I sit on it, I just can't live with it. Somebody's got to go there and check out. And so how old was the little kid that did that your daughter's house? About twelve years old? Thirteen? And then she had all four of the kids come back later and to say everything was okay, and they're all standing at attention like they were just scared to death. And I think there's something very serious going on there here from Texas. The kids might even be kidnapped. And basically my son in law is like most people, they don't want to get involved, and so he's keeping my daughter out of it.

52:10 But since she's told me about it, I just can't live with it. I'm very concerned for these kids. Good for that man, Steve's my hero. I mean, I'm so glad he did that. Yeah, I don't want to judge the de Kelps, but if that happened, you and I would not get a wink of sleep. We would call the police. I don't think we would hesitate, Yeah, for sure. Neighbors recalled that the children were rarely, if ever outside, the blinds were always tightly closed in the home. None of the children had a cellphone or were allowed to use the computer, and in twenty seventeen, the kid's ages ranged from twelve to seventeen. I'm sorry, twelve to nineteen. They're not little kids anymore.

52:53 They should have been spending time with friends, exploring the world independently and figuring out who they were and how they fit into the world. The heart kids didn't have any friends as far as I can tell, outside of their siblings, and they had absolutely no autonomy. On March fifteenth, twenty eighteen, Bruce de kelb was working on his car in the driveway when Davante approached him and asked him for food. And the other incident happened in November, so nothing happened from that. There was an investigation, but you know, the kids remained in the home. Davante approached him and asked him for food, He told Bruce that his mother's withheld food from the children as punishment, sometimes for days at a time. Davante returned to the Kelbs about twelve more times over the week, multiple times a day, and asked for fruit, protein bars, cured meat, and other non perishable food. He asked them to put the food in a box by the fence and not to call the police or CPS because he didn't want to be separated from his siblings. Davante told the JCLBS that everything Hannah had told them about their home life was true, and they didn't call CPS, not yet, can you imagine? I mean, I don't Again, I don't want to judge them. I know they meant well and they did give the kids food, but still I got to report that. Okay. So I'm going to briefly go through the timeline just because like so much has happened, just so you have like a better idea. In two thousand and four, that's when Sarah and Hannah became foster parents. Two thousand and six, that's when the first three were adopted and

54:28 they came to Minnesota. In two thousand and eight is the first involvement with CPS and then DeVante, Jeremiah, and Sierra were adopted. In twenty ten to twenty eleven, six child abuse claims were filed against the Hearts. Sarah pleaded guilty and was sentenced to one year probation. The children were pulled out of public school for good. Twenty thirteen, Sarah's probation was up and they moved to Oregon. Twenty fourteen is the picture of when the picture of DeVante went viral and the family became a li more reclusive. Twenty seventeen is when they moved to Washington, Hannah escaped and Davante starts asking for food. On March twenty third, Davante returned and asked the Decalps for food one last time.

55:13 Dana decides to call CPS and they paid a visit to the house that very day, but no one answered the door. Sarah left her job at Cohle's and a scene for the last time publicly. On March twenty fourth, at three am, Sarah texted her coworker from Cole's and told her that she was too sick to come to work and would not be able to open the store that day. And this wasn't characteristic of Sarah at all. She always went to work. On March twenty fourth, Dana, who Dina, became obsessed with watching the house. She didn't call CPS, but I think she wanted to, and she had a lot of guilt, so she was like watching the house all the time for something to happen. So on March twenty fourth, she noticed that the yukon was not in the driveway and a retaining wall had been damned famaged. In the heart's haste to leave the house, CPS returned twice more, but no one ever answered the door. Later that day, the family is believed to be about one hundred and sixty miles away from their home in Newport, Oregon, and by that evening they were in Fort Bragg, California, so they're just driving along the down coast. March twenty fifth, at eight am, Jennifer Hart is seen for the last time on surveillance camera entering a Safeway in Fort Bragg, California, where she purchased bananas, saltines, and chef Boyerd Revuoli for twenty dollars and eight cents, paying cash and using a member card, which is kind of strange. I can feel myself like starting to tear up because I know what's coming. Yeah.

56:44 On March twenty six, at ten am, the CPS caseworker returned to the Heart home for the final time and called police to complete a welfare check at the home after no one answered the door. At one pm, Sarah's coworker, Cheryl Hart no relation, also called for a welfare check after not hearing from Sarah for several days. Here's a short clip because I was calling the seething that wilfare just done. Okay and her? Are we checking on Sarah Hart? Tell me the reason that we're checking on her. She sent out a text message at three o'clock in the morning on Saturday morning stating that she was sick, but nobody's said be able to get a hold of her, talk to her or seeing her since that time. Message okay or her wife was his gen So was just concerned? Okay? And did she when she said she was sex? Did she say what was going on? Or she just said that she just is unable to come out and wasn't able to go to work and thought she was going to have to go to the doctor.

57:43 I checked the hospitals. They didn't have any records of her and I think her phone is now dead. Okay, and just the two of them live there. They have six children, okay. Any non medical history, not that I'm aware of. No, she has been sick. I think it's like a cold. Okay. Has she been so svital at all? Or see not that I'm aware. Doesn't sound good, does it. A man camping with his wife in an RV near highway in northern California heard tires crunching gravel on March twenty fifth, twenty eighteen, just after eleven pm. He peeked out and saw a large suv, but no one exited the vehicle.

58:27 He assumed someone had parked there just to get a few hours of sleep. He went to bed, but was awakened at three am when he heard the SUV's engine come to life and fade off into the distance. Moments later, off in the distance, he heard the screech of tires and faint screams. He convinced himself that he was just hearing animals. At three thirty pm on March twenty six a tourists spotted the hearts crushed GMC yukon suv at the bottom of the cliff. It took emergency responders until midnight for the difficult recovery of the Heart family and their vehicle. Jen and Sarah were found in the Yuka Marcus, Jeremiah, and Abby were thrown from the vehicle and found on the rocks nearby. A month's long search ensued for the remaining family members.

59:09 Volunteers searched forty five miles along the coast searching for DeVante, Hannah, and Sierra. The crash was at first thought to be an accident in law enforcement hope the missing children hadn't been on the trip and were somewhere safe, But as the investigation unfolded, it became obvious that it was something else. When you start putting the totality of everything together, you would be a village idiot if you didn't think that you know something. Who's rotten here? If on day one I had said gauxious was an intentional act and it was homicide, oh can you imagine? People would have said, who are you to make that determination? You know who would kill six kids? I'm a dad who would kill six kids. But if this is not an accident, that means one thing means it was a crime. If it's a crime, it's part of it. At the very beginning, when I said I have no reason to believe this is anything but an accident, I believed it. But that changed when things started developing from a traffic accident to a homicide investigation. That's not a baby step, that's a big leap, but it is what it is. That was Tom Allman, former sheriff coroner of Mendocino County, who was in charge of the heart investigation. Sarah Hart's Google searches and the hours

1:00:42 before her death became important evidence. They included his death from drowning relatively painless. How long does it take to die from hypothermia and water while drowning in a car? How can I easily overdose on OTC medicine? What OTC medications can you take to overdose? What will happen when overdosing with menadrill? Sarah also googled no kill shelters for their dogs. On April seventh, twenty eighteen, Sierra's body washed ashore. Hannah's foot was found on a nearby beach on May ninth, but it took ten months to identify to identify it until her birth mother came forward and offer her DNA. A DNA match was necessary because there were no dental records. As far as law enforcement could tell, the children had never visited a dentist. The confirmation of Hannah's death dashed hopes that she and Davante might have escaped the horrific situation. How you doing over there?

1:01:36 I'm hanging in there. It's rough. I can't even yeah, I just can't even imagine. Yeah. The autopsy found that Sarah had forty two doses of venadryl in her body, Marcus had nineteen, Abby fourteen, and Jeremiah nine. Jen was legally drunk. Her blood alcohol level was point one oh two, the equivalent of about five drinks. Point eight or high. Is considered too intoxicated to drive. Liquid and pill forms of Benadryla were purchased in Washington at Walmart shortly after leaving their home, indicating the murders had been premeditated. The cause of death for all members of the Heart family was a broken neck. So were the three kids that weren't found in the car.

1:02:17 Were they in the car but thrown from the vehicle or were they killed in a different way? Yeah, they were, And I think police were confused. Yeah, to no. They I mean, I will post pictures and you'll see that the the bottom of the cliff where the vehicle landed. It's on this rocky beach, but it's right up against so I think, you know, yeah, they were just thrown from the car and they weren't found until later. Okay. Authorities ruled the deaths of the Heart family intentional, but felt a jury should decide. Tom Alman, the sheriff coroner, opened an inquest in Mendocino County. So in California, a lot of counties use the sheriff. Sheriff is also the coroner. Mm hmm, which seems like a huge workload. On April fourth, a jury of fourteen chose from four manners of death for each of the eight people who died natural causes, suicide, accident, or homicide. Despite his body never being found, A judge had rolled Davante dead last night. My voice started getting horse and I was losing my voice. That I was actually kind of happy because I was like, oh,'ch is gonna have to You're going to have to do this this story. Today, jurors heard testimony from eight police officers, a medical examiner, and viewed more than one dozen exhibits. Among the evidence was the lack of skid marks or other signs of breaking before the Yukon plummeted to the rocky beach, and no one was wearing a seatbelt. Investigator said it appeared that the suv stopped about seventy feet from the cliff's edge, then quickly accelerated

1:03:51 to twenty miles per hour at full throttle, which I know that doesn't sound really fast, but there was much ground to get the speed up. The Heart's GPS washed ashore weeks later after the crash, and that was critical evidence. In under an hour, the jurors unanimously determined that the manner of death for Sarah and Jennifer Hart was suicide and the deaths of the six children was homicide. Mendocino County Sheriff Lieutenant Shannon Barney said, quote, it is my belief that both Jennifer and Sarah succumbed to a lot of pressure, just a lot of stuff going on in their lives, to the point where they made this conscious decision to end their lives this way and take their children's lives end quote. After the crash, law enforcement entered the Heart home in Washington to look for evidence as to the whereabouts of the three missing children and a possible motive. No suicide note was found or proved that Devonte, Hannah, or Sierra could be alive. Investigators said that it didn't look like the children lived in the home. It was organized and tidy, and sadly, there weren't enough beds for eight children. Despite claiming to have a strict organic vegetarian diet, the refrigerator and freezer were full of meat and processed foods, and there was a large bowl of fruit on the counter, which I don't care if they were eating. They had meat in their house, but feed your kids.

1:05:12 There was no reason for these kids to go hungry. There were open bottles of wine in the counter, despite Jen's claims that she never drank. In the basement, there was a large screen TV. On Facebook, Jen had proudly claimed that they had given up TV for the best big screen available planet Earth. So, like we see so often in these situations, their social media life was really just a big lie, right for sure. I think it's who they maybe wanted to be, it's not who they were in reality. We'll never know what the motive was for gen and Sarah killing themselves and their children. But we do know that CPS was closing in on them. They were fourteen thousand dollars in debt, and Jen had been pretending to be the perfect parent for over a decade. As their six children approached adulthood, Adulthood and Sarah may have realized they no longer had the ability or right to control them. Whatever the reason, it was no fault of these six remarkable young people who had been through so much in their short lives. Perhaps Jen and Sarah originally had the best intentions and found themselves over their heads and felt like they didn't have anyone to turn to because they wanted to be the ideal modern family and got caught up in curating this perfection, sacrificing the actual happiness and well being of their children. I don't know. I don't know what the motive would have been, but it's just disgusting and horrible. Well, and knowing that other people loved these children. Yeah, friends of Jen and Sarah have ardently defended them. The kids were angels. They always beamed

1:06:46 with smiles. The Hard Family, in my mind, are some of the most precious beings on the earth. That we've met. Anytime they would show up to an event, they would show up with just an overwhelming energy of love. The Heart family were such a great and still are a living legacy of bringing our people together in the importance of community and the importance of racial equality and the importance of freedom. And they took day by day, hour to hour, moment to moment to help them rejuvenate and help teach them the language and help teach them how to be here with community. They really found the goodness and everybody and I hope that we can all really learn a really beautiful lesson in that and carry that legacy on. Okay, I don't think so. It's maddening. Well, I mean part of that clip it sounded like, you know, they were talking about the kids, which I'm like, okay, yeah, but yeah, it sounds like they're kind of defending Jen and Sarah, like that they built this beautiful family and they should, you know, I mean, these people are clearly in denial. Yeah.

1:07:57 Jamie Herman's a friend of Jen's since high school, said the women were devoted parents. She said people who never knew them are jumping to offensive and hurtful conclusions about their motives and their parenting. Quote were they perfect? No, but they are not the monsters they are being painted as. The amount of love and good that they put into this world is what their legacy should be. End of quote. I'm sorry, I can't. Stacy Patten, an assistant professor of multimedia journalism at Morgan State University, said the reaction to the heart case is complicated. Quote. Anytime black bodies are killed as a result of something white people have done, there is an almost intuitive response from white people that we shouldn't rush to judgment. We don't have all the facts.

1:08:40 White people are constantly given the benefit of the doubt despite the evidence that we have. End quote. We talked about this in the Ruby Frankie case that we did for Patreon. But a parent's most basic responsibility is to provide their children with food, shelter, and clothing. If those needs are not met, it's impossible for a children, for a child to grow emotionally, physically, learn, socialize, love themselves, or anyone else. Yeah, it just just infuriates me. Yeah, me too. So part of the problem here is there is not a nationwide registry for child abuse and child welfare, and that hopefully can be changed because Jen and Sarah were able to have at least ten or more child abuse claims over three states. Okay, so this is because they moved from one state to another. You think that there wasn't as much follow up as there should have been because they weren't tracked kind of across. Probably, Yeah, they all, you know, cumulatively have been looked at. It could have had a different outcome. Yeah. I just wanted to say a little something about the kids as individuals if I can get through it. DeVante was sensitive, the leader of the group, charismatic going and love to play his trumpet. Jeremiah was a survivor, not expected to live long after his birth. Sierra loved animals and her pet cat. Abigail

1:10:12 loved to explore nature and yoga. Marcus was quiet and studious, and he loved to read, and he read Twilight in one sitting. Hannah was quiet and observant, more comfortable on the periphery, but loved to dance and sing. Sorry, this just wrecks me. Okay, that's so hard. Maybe all rest in peace and know how well they were loved. I will never forget these kids. Man Dante, the brother of Davante, Jeremiah, and Sierra has two sons of his own today who have also entered the foster system. Dante, the cards were stacked against Yeah. He has had several run ins with the law for theft and domestic abuse. He has also had issues with drugs, and he's been in game and he has not been able to hold a job. Roxanna Escarian, author of We Were Once a Family, A Story of Love, Death and child Removal in America, which was one of my sources, not only wrote an informative and devastating book about the Heart Family and the birth families of Marcus, Hannah, Abigail, DeVante, Jeremia, and Sierra, she became a fearless advocate for the birth families and personally made it her mission that they received some of the remains of the children.

1:11:30 The Heart and Gengler families would only relinquish a portion of the ashes, but it was something for the children's birth families to hold on too. I can't imagine how grateful they were to have a tiny part of their children, except for DeVante, whose remains have never been found. So that's the horrible story of the Heart Family. Well, thank you for telling the story. It is horrible and I yeah, I have no words. It's a tough one. You just can't wrap your head around white people would do this, You really can't. It's just the obsession of creating this image of perfection, white saviorism. These I don't know. Sarah was not as bad as Jen, but she was complicit. She could have stopped it. University of Michigan law professor Vivic Sankarum said, in our system, once a child is adopted, we equate it with success, and there is very little follow up. We actually know very little about the well being of how kids from the foster care system do after they are adopted end quote. Studies show that adopted children, even when placed early in life, have more anxiety, depression, and mental health issues as compared to the general population. Some of this stems from the biological parent, but also environmental factors that arise in the adoptees new home.

1:12:58 The thought that these three children were better off with two white women states away from their family members that had once fought so hard to adopt them is unacceptable. Poverty isn't neglect. Children are taken away from their families as a punitive measure when other therapies could be administered. These families are plagued by addiction, poverty, mental illness, violence, and trauma, and much of it is intergenerational and cyclical. It doesn't mean that they don't love their children. Yeah, it's so tough, it's such a complicated. Yeah, it's a criticize the system because I know that there's a lot of people that work really hard and the best interests these kids. And you know, you say, like, well, you know, the kids shouldn't have been taken away from their their biological families, but in some cases the children do need to be taken away from their biological families. It's just, you know, not it's not a one size fits all answer. Yeah, it's super complicated issue. And yeah, but in this case, the kids were failed. It seems like numerous times, you know, start to finish. Yeah, and keeping the children together is so important. And my research like when at all possible, kids should be placed with family members and never separated from their siblings. That leads to so much trauma. So I mean, that's that's pretty much it.

1:14:18 Sorry for my emotion. That was a tough one one putting it off, but I really wanted to tell the story, and I, yeah, I'm glad you told the story. I think it's an important story to tell, and I think you did a great job. I appreciate that. I did want to talk about my sources really quick, and as usual, I have way too many, Like I think you at one point you said to me, stop, You're good, But I just I always just want to tell the story the best way I can, and it's tough. There's a podcast called Broken Hearts that I listened to a year or two years ago that I first learned about this story, and they do a pretty good job.

1:14:58 But they and it seems like they can mildly defend Jen and Sarah, and I don't think that they deserve to be defended. No, I don't think so either. I'm sure they were troubled and had issues, but to do what they did, I can't. Yeah, I can't defend that. I can't defend it either. And also I listened to I watched a documentary called A Thread of Deceit and that was horrible because it was also defended. Really yeah, it was a lot of their I think it might have been funded by their festival friends. I'm not sure, but there was a lot of people saying, oh, you know, like that quote we heard, they put a lot of good into the world. There was also I do recommend a documentary called Broken Hearts and I watched it from HBO Max and that was really well done. That one I really enjoyed. And Roxtanna Ascarian's book was so touching. We Were Once a Family, a story of love, death and child removal in America. I can't recommend that enough. It's half of it is about the Heart Family, but the other half is more about the system. The system. Yeah, and she was in the system herself, so she has interesting personal information. So yeah, devastating story. Well again, great job telling the story. Well I will never forget those six beautiful children who deserved so much more out of life. Yeah, they deserved a

1:16:29 chance. Yeah. Well that's all I have about the Heart Family. But I did want to say thank you, a hearty thank you to everyone who has left us reviews. We do see them. We're so grateful, and even people that interview up reviewed us on good Pods. I didn't wait. I opened that the other day. I was excited to see some reviews there, So thank you so much. Yeah, it really does mean a lot to us along the same lines too, We got we got an email yesterday that just it made us both cry. But it was from people are like, well, you cry it anything, Yeah, but it was from I don't want to say who exactly it was from, but it was from a close family member of one of the victims of our stories, and she wrote to us to tell us how much she appreciated the way that we told the story and our compassion, and it just means so much to us, so much. Could we try our very best? We really do, and I we try to have fun, and we try to have a laugh here and there, but when we talk about the victims and their families, it's only only with respect and compassion, and so to know that that's coming through and that even close family members of the victims are you know, feel that way, it just it means a lot. Well. A fellow podcaster recently posted something that I've been thinking about and I keep thinking about. She said, people's stories don't belong to you, and I think there is some truth to that, and we never want to see him exploitative. Yeah, but it's also important to tell these stories, I think, yep, for sure.

1:17:56 On a lighter note. I did want to mention that some people have told me that they listen to us when oh I should be quiet, they're nodding off, or when they're sick. Thank you for listening. I don't really feel like our voices are that relaxing. I apologize, I need to hire somebody. I'm a disaster. But anyway, rate, review, subscribe. We appreciate you guys, We love you guys. Consider paton dot com, slash love, Mary kill Well. Thanks everybody for listening, and be good to each other. Apt