Feb. 10, 2025

Joan Robinson Hill and Dr. John Hill - Part 3 of 3

Joan Robinson Hill and Dr. John Hill - Part 3 of 3
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Joan Robinson Hill and her husband, Dr. John Hill, were the darlings of Houston’s high society in the 1960s. Joan was a champion equestrian from one of Houston’s wealthiest families, and John was a successful plastic surgeon with a love for classical music. They were young, attractive, and seemed to have it all—a picture-perfect couple moving through a world of horse shows, charity events, and fancy parties.

But behind the scenes, things weren’t as perfect as they seemed. Joan and John were opposites in many ways, and their differences caused tension from the start. To make matters worse, Joan’s father, Ash Robinson, was a major presence in their lives. He was fiercely protective of Joan and had no problem getting involved in her marriage, which only added more strain. By 1969, the cracks in their relationship couldn’t be ignored any longer. The problems in their marriage came to a head, setting off a chain of events that would stretch over six years and leave a trail of heartbreak, betrayal, and tragedy for everyone involved.

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Today's snacks (thanks Sarah!): Audrey's Chia Cookies, Prickly Pear Marmalade, Prickly Pear Candy

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Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina.

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And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty

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years of marriage.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your husband, and.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill.

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Hi, Tina, Hey Rich, how are you today?

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Do you want me to give you my podcast answer

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or my real answer?

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I think I think we want your real answer. How

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do we know there's a real answer.

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I'm really cold. It's been so cold here this week.

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Yeah, well it is, you know, late January.

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But it's unusually cold, like the school was canceled two

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days this week?

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Here was it really? Oh? Yeah, I didn't know that.

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I've been jetting off to Europe and you know, having

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having fun in Paris.

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Yeah, I don't think you had that much fun of

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hers much. What was the weather like in Paris?

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It will a little warmer than here. It was probably

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like forty degrees give her takes, but it was super

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rainy the one day.

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Just I'm so sorry.

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Well, in Paris you have to walk everywhere, like you know,

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it's not easy to get around.

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So uh your hate mail walking Mary.

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Killed five ten minutes and mail dot.

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Com attention, Rich, You know, poor me, poor rich. I

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have one word for you.

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Okay, jackimchick, k oh is that the that's the coroner's name?

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What is it?

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Chickimchick, jackkimchick. How did you find that out?

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Well? I felt like I definitely took the easy way

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out last time by saying doctor J. But sometimes when

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we're reading the script like to stop and every time

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you have to see it like it, it screws me up.

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So I reached out to our friend Asha, who happens

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to be Polish, and she helped me out there. I

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probably still said it wrong. That sounded good, kimchick. Yeah,

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I mean I get to say it again today.

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I think there is maybe one mention of doctor J. Yeah.

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I just wanted to rid myself because we do really

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try it. We say things wrong, but we try our

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best to get things right. So I apologize to the

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Chikimchik family for copping out and not saying their name

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the right excellent.

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Well, thank you for doing that research for helping us.

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So I don't have another Texas snack for part three,

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but I am very.

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Excited you brought something back to Paris.

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I didn't bring anything back from Paris. I don't have

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another Texas snack.

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Well, I get home, lest like, I had lunch with

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my friend and you were home when I got home,

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and I was like, what'd you pray?

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Oh?

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Nothing, Yeah, you brought me nothing.

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This was one of those trips that was like the

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only thing I could have brought was from the airport.

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And I'm like, I've brought you macarones from the airport

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too many times.

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And there's not a floorist between Detroit and Dexter that

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you could have stopped at.

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No, there isn't. Right, In fact, yes there is.

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I'll send you like a nice little Google map for

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like with all the floorist between our.

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House and Well, I apologize for not bringing you anything back.

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I am going to be making you macaroons soon though.

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So my company is offering a virtual macaron baking class.

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And it's the week before Valentine's Day, so you got

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that to look forward to.

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Do you know what flavor you're making?

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I have no idea.

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I have never made them before. It seems like too

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much trouble for one bite.

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Yeah, yeah kind of, but I really do like them. Well,

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what I do have for you today is a snack

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that our listener and friend Sarah sent us from Arizona.

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So I'm actually very excited about We've had them for

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a long time and we were kind of waiting to

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have a case from Arizona, but we just haven't had

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one in a long time. So we thought, let's let's

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have these snacks because they've been sitting there and they

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look really good. So do you want to try those?

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Thank you so much, Sarah? Is it? I believe an

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OG listener, so we appreciate it so much. Sarah.

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So what she sent us our chia cookies, lemon chia

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cookies from made by Audrey's and also some Prickly Pear

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candy and some Prickly Pear marmalade.

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Me of one of our favorite favorite restaurants and ann

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arbor that closed a few years ago.

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Called The Prickly Parent was great place. But should we

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give these a try?

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Absolutely?

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Well, what did you think of those Arizona snacks?

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They're really yummy.

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I like them a lot too. I love the chia cookies.

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Cheese cookies are so good and I'm you know, I

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like a homemade cookie. If you want to order them,

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go to Audrey's Chia dot com. I would give these

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a ten out of ten.

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Great.

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I'm just going to read you the back really quick

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and just noticed it.

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Hi.

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I'm Audrey. Some have called me the chia Queen, but

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in reality, I'm a wife, mom, and runner. While training

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for my first marathon at age fifty, I discovered the

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mighty chitah seed and became determined to see this superfood

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incorporated into the lifestyle of everyone I know. By adding

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chia seeds to our crisp crunchy cookies, we created a

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snack that fuels the body while satisfying the cravings for

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a sweet, indulgent treat. I hope my story and these

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delicious cookies energize you and encourage you to treat yourself

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and everyone you love better.

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That's awesome. Nice Gea seeds are amazing. I love gia seeds.

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Yeah, and it's always like a kind of a nice

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challenge because you have the chia seeds and your teeth.

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Then I was trying to like crack the later. The

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candy was really it was really unique.

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Yeah, it was interesting.

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Yeah, I think I would give that a nine out

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of ten. And the marmalade was really interesting too, I

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would I think I would give that a nine out

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of ten.

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I'm going to go with the same ratings for all

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of you are Oh, I agree, Okay, they were all

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they're all really good.

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Well, thank you so much, Sarah. We really appreciate it.

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Should we finish off the Joan Robinson Hill and John

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Hill case? Yes, it's been a long road. How about

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a quick recap?

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In part two? Joan passed away very quickly, within two

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or three days after getting sick. Everyone was pointing to

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her husband, John Hill as responsible, but after multiple autopsies

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and many doctors involved, her cause of death was still

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a mystery. Joan's dad, Ash firmly believe that John killed

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her and he was out for revenge. He's spent a

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huge amount of money trying to influence the justice system.

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He finally succeeded in getting John indicted for murder biomission,

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essentially failing to provide adequate medical care for his wife.

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But during his trial, his now ex wife, Anne Kirth,

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gave some outrageous and prejudicial testimony, causing the judges to

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disclare a mistrial. In the meantime, John finally met a woman, Connie,

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who seemed like the perfect match for him. He and

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Connie married and were building a new life together when

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John was shot and killed in nineteen seventy two, just

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a few weeks before he was set to stand trial again.

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So in part one, you know, we kind of talked

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about Joan and John's relationship. Part two was about the

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search for justice for jones death. Now we're going to

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delve into the search for justice for John's death, and

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we're going to meet a new cast of characters as well.

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Oh really, wow, when you were reading the book and

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you got to John's death, were you shocked? I was.

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Ye. Yeah, I was not expecting it at all.

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And you had said the book was a very good read.

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Really good called Blood and Money by Thomas Thompson, and

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it is I think one of the best true crime

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books ever, really kind of really classic.

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Yeah.

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John's mom, Myra Hill, had now endured the unimaginable pain

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of losing both of her sons. Speaking with the police,

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she recounted the chilling events leading up to John's murder.

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On Saturday, the day before the shooting, the phone rang

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at the Hill home. Myra answered, and a man's voice

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on the line asked for doctor Hill. She told him

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that John was out of town and wouldn't return until

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the next evening. If you recall, John and Connie were

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both at a plastic surgery convention in Las Vegas.

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John's younger brother, Julian, had died by suicide at least

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ten years previously.

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Yes, exactly the following day, on Sunday, around six thirty pm,

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the same man called again. Myra told him that John

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should be home by seven thirty or eight. Shortly before

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seven thirty, the doorbell rang. Myra opened it to find

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a man standing there, wearing some kind of a wig

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and holding a gun. He pointed it directly at Robert,

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John and Jones's son, who was standing nearby, formerly.

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Known as Boot.

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Correct.

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Was she staying at the mansion?

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Yes, she was staying there watching Robert while Connie and

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John were out of town.

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So I've seen pictures of the mansion and there's gates.

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Do you think that they weren't there at the time.

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I don't know if they weren't there, if they were

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unlocked open. Yeah. At first, Myra thought the intruder might

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be a disturbed patient of her son's, but the man

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quickly dispelled any doubt, ordering both Myra and Robert to

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stay quiet. This is a robbery. He said, no one

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will get hurt if you cooperate. He forced them to

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sit on the floor. Then he pulled out a roll

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of adhesive tape. Calmly and methodically, he bound Robert's hands

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and feet and taped his mouth shut. Myra pleated with

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her eyes, but the man ignored her, moving on to

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bind and gag her in the same way. When the

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doorbell rang moments later, Myra knew it was John. She

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desperately tried to warn him, struggling against her gag, but

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the man silenced her with a brute kick to her throat.

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The impact left her unable to move or make a sound.

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As she lay there helpless, she heard three gunshots echo

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through the house. Myra's heart sank. She knew what they meant.

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Robert managed to wriggle free from his bindings and ran

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to his father's side, but it was too late. Meanwhile,

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in Austin and Kirth, John's ex wife was settling in

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after her move. That evening, she received a phone call

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from Ash Robinson. His tone was as cold as his words.

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Did you hear about old John Hill? He went and

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got himself shot to death?

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Why would he call her?

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Well, it's a good question. But when Anne hung up

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the phone, she almost felt like it sounded like he

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was gloating. Detectives Joe Gamino and Jerry Carpenter were the

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first to take the call about John Hill's murder. As

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they come through the crime scene, they quickly came to

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the conclusion that this wasn't a robbery gone wrong. It

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bore all the hallmarks of a professional hit. The adhesive

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tape covering John's nose, mouth, and eyes were a signature

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method used in underworld killings in Texas during that era.

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The detectives began by interviewing Myra, Robert, and Connie. Despite

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his age, twelve year old Robert was remarkably composed, offering

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a detailed description of the killer. He even speculated that

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the man might be from Dallas. When Carpenter asked why

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Robert thought that, the boy replied confidently, he talks like

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Don Meredith, referring to the former Dallas Cowboys quarterback and

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broadcaster and Lipton T lover. I forgot about that, poor Robert.

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Now he's lost both his mom and now his dad.

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The autopsy revealed that John had been shot three times.

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The first bullet struck his wrist, the second hit his

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right shoulder. Neither wound would have been fatal, but the

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third shot was deadly, piercing his stomach and tearing through

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his aorta. Before you ask, the aorta does go all

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the way down to your stomach, because when I first

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read that, like the aorta, that's the neck.

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But sure enough, you mean you talk to a cardiac

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special list, Yes, yes, so you did just google it.

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Yes, I talked to him cardiac specialist j Google. So

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John bled to death internally, likely within three to five minutes.

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Although the killer had taken John's wallet and briefcase, nothing

242
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else in the mansion appeared disturbed. However, he left behind

243
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a couple of clues, a green pillow case with crude

244
00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:23.440
eye holes cut out, which he had used as a

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00:11:23.480 --> 00:11:25.720
mask for part of the time that he was there,

246
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and a single brown work glove. Witness accounts from Myra, Robert,

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and Connie described the assailant as a white man between

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thirty and forty years old, with long, dark hair, a

249
00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:41.720
droopy mustache, and a vaguely hippyish appearance. With these details,

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an FBI artists created a composite sketch. Unfortunately, when Carpenter

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and Gomino canvassed the neighborhood. They turned up no new leads.

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No one had noticed anything suspicious. Then a few days

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later a breakthrough came. A tip led them to a

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group of neighborhood kids who had found a briefcase hidden

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in a patch of shrubs. Gamino and Carpenter rushed to

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the scene and confirmed that it was John Hill's missing briefcase.

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While searching the area, Carpenter noticed something odd beneath another bush,

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a small metal pipe sticking out of the ground. He

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pulled it free and discovered a thirty eight caliber snubnosed revolver,

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its surface rusted from the rain. Ballistics tests later confirmed

261
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the grim finding this was the weapon used to kill

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John Hill.

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In nineteen sixty eight, after a string of political assassinations

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shook the nation, Congress passed a Firearms Act designed to

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tighten restrictions unconcealable weapons. The law required anyone purchasing a

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gun less than eighteen inches long to fill out a

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registration form at the store. These forms were sent to

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the Department of Justice and entered into a central database.

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While the system wasn't as helpful in cases involving stolen

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00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:53.240
or privately sold guns. It could be a useful tool

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for police trying to trace weapons used in crimes. Detective

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Joe Gamino decided to give it a try. He entered

273
00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:03.360
the serial number of the thirty eight revolver used in

274
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John's murder into the teletype and sent it to Washington,

275
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d C. What's a teletype?

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We don't have those anymore, Dewey, No, certainly get what

277
00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:15.320
it is. I don't know exactly. I mean, it's sort

278
00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:17.840
of like a telegraph, I guess, like you type something

279
00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:20.039
in and it transmits across the country.

280
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Within an hour, he received a response the gun had

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00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:26.919
been purchased in nineteen sixty nine at a store in Longview, Texas,

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00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:30.759
by doctor William Mitchell. This lead was intriguing.

283
00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:33.639
It was intriguing just because this was another doctor, and

284
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of course John Hill was also a doctor, and.

285
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So is doctor damn it, Jack Kimchick.

286
00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:39.720
There you go.

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Gamino and his partner Jerry Carpenter wasted no time visiting

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doctor Mitchell. When they showed him the gun, he immediately

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00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:49.960
recognized it and confirmed it was his. Then he shared

290
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a crazy story about how he lost it. Doctor Mitchell

291
00:13:53.639 --> 00:13:57.000
exclaimed that in early nineteen seventy two, two women from

292
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the Dallas Fort Worth area prostitutes he admitted, had visited

293
00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:04.440
his home. After spending the evening with them, he fell asleep.

294
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When he woke up, they were long gone, along with

295
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his El Dorado and a briefcase containing twenty one hundred

296
00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:15.360
dollars in cash. Angry and determined to recover his property,

297
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Mitchell grabbed his revolver and called a private air charter

298
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service to fly to Fort Worth, as one does. His

299
00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:25.320
plan was to track down the women himself and get

300
00:14:25.320 --> 00:14:28.440
his stolen goods back. But before he could leave, another

301
00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:31.840
woman he knew, a prostitute who went by the name Dusty,

302
00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:34.279
called him. She said she was in town and wanted

303
00:14:34.279 --> 00:14:37.799
to visit Mitchell. Apparently having a weakness for prostitutes, He

304
00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:41.840
changed his plans and decided to stay and fighting Dusty over.

305
00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:45.799
When Dusty arrived, she suggested that he relax with a bath.

306
00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:49.519
Mitchell agreed. While he was soaking in the tub, Dusty

307
00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:51.399
grabbed his gun and disappeared.

308
00:14:51.639 --> 00:14:55.279
The sky got robbed by two different sets of prostitutes,

309
00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:56.399
both in the same day.

310
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I hope he learned a lesson.

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I hope he did too.

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00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:02.200
As far fetched as the story sounded the detectives believed him.

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00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:05.600
Mitchell didn't just stop there. He also provided a crucial

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00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:08.519
piece of information. He said he believed that Dusty's real

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00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:12.200
name was Marcia mc kittrick, or something close to that.

316
00:15:12.639 --> 00:15:15.919
This revelation gave the detectives a new name to investigate

317
00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:19.399
and moved the case one step closer to uncovering the

318
00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:24.240
truth behind John Hill's murder. Detectives Gamino and Carpenter threw

319
00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:27.559
themselves into the search for Marcia mc kittrick. They worked

320
00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:30.159
their way through the underbelly of the city, talking to

321
00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:34.240
Madam's pimps and night porters, anyone who might have informations

322
00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:37.799
on her whereabouts. Their persistence paid off when they found

323
00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:40.919
her name and police records. Marcia had been arrested the

324
00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:43.960
year before at the age of twenty two. The report

325
00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:46.919
described her as a suspected drug addict, but there was

326
00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:50.080
no indication of where she might be now. Camino and

327
00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:54.399
Carpenter next tracked down her parents. They confirmed Marcia was

328
00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:57.000
working as a prostitute, but admitted they hadn't seen her

329
00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:59.559
in some time and had no idea where she was living.

330
00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:03.039
The detectives continued digging and learned that Marcia had once

331
00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:06.840
worked for a pimp named Cleat. However, their lead hit

332
00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:09.240
a dead end when they discovered Cleed had been in

333
00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:13.080
federal prison since well before John Hill's murder. A new

334
00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:15.639
tip suggested that Marcia was now working for a man

335
00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:19.799
out of Dallas, someone named Bobby. The informant couldn't recall

336
00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:23.480
his last name exactly, but it sounded like Vandergriff or

337
00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:27.000
Vander Slice. It started with a V. He was sure

338
00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:30.480
of that. Armed with this fragment of a lead, Gamino

339
00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:34.919
and Carpenter issued a statewide bulletin notifying law law enforcement

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00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:38.320
agencies across Texas that they were looking for Marcia mc

341
00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:41.879
kittrick and her possible associate, Bobby. They believed it was

342
00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:44.240
only a matter of time before the pair turned up,

343
00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:48.039
but time dragged on, weeks became months, and the case stalled.

344
00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:51.960
Despite their efforts, six months passed with no sign of

345
00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:55.759
Marcia or Bobby. The investigation, for the moment had reached

346
00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:59.679
a frustrating standstill. Marcia mc kittrick was the sixth of

347
00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:02.879
nine nine children. She grew up in a conservative Baptist

348
00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:06.000
family in the suburbs of Dallas. She was an all

349
00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:09.400
a student until her family moved from the suburbs into

350
00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:12.240
the city. There, she fell in with a wrong crowd

351
00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:16.279
and started skipping school and smoking. Remember when smoking was

352
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the worst thing you could possibly do in high school? Oh,

353
00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:23.119
those are the smokers. At fifteen, Marcia ran away from home.

354
00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:26.440
She longed for freedom and adventure. Within a few weeks,

355
00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:29.960
she was dancing at a burlesque house, passing for twenty one.

356
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She was making good money, but an older friend said

357
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she could do even better if she made the occasional

358
00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:40.319
appointment for sex. Initially reluctant, she tried it and decided

359
00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:44.000
it wasn't so bad. At seventeen, she became pregnant. She

360
00:17:44.119 --> 00:17:47.160
was already six months long before she realized it. She

361
00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:49.359
gave birth to a son and moved in with the

362
00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:52.279
likely father, a man named Lee who she had been

363
00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:54.960
seeing on and off. She and Lee tried to make

364
00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:57.599
it work as a family, but money was tight and

365
00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:01.880
Marcia sunk into depression. Then Marcia she discovered barbituates and

366
00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:04.680
they helped her cope, but she became hooked and went

367
00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:07.880
back to turning tricks. She moved to Tampa, Florida for

368
00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:11.279
a while, headed north, then ended up back in Texas,

369
00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:14.240
she made attempts to try and get straight and make

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00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:17.720
family life work, while she kept falling back into old habits.

371
00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:20.720
In nineteen seventy one, she and Lee got arrested for

372
00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:24.519
trying to pass bad checks. After that, Lee urged Marcia

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to get married and go straight, but she couldn't do it.

374
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She ended up with a pimped name Cleat, who suggested

375
00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:33.759
she become a traveling prostitute. You would go stay in

376
00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:35.640
a city for a couple of weeks at a hotel

377
00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:40.119
that tolerated discreet prostitution. The night clerk or bellman would

378
00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:43.200
take a cut, Cleete would take another cut, and Marcia

379
00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:46.519
would keep the rest. At one point, Marcia told Cleete

380
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:49.519
she needed a break. He said, no problem, I'm actually

381
00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:51.720
going to Houston to see a friend. You could come

382
00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:54.839
along and stay at her house. And that's how Marcia

383
00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:58.720
came to meet Lilla Paulis. Lilla was older, in her

384
00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:02.319
early fifties. Her recently deceased husband, Claude, had been a

385
00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:05.200
prominent bookie and operated a club with gambling in the

386
00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:08.920
back room. While Claude was alive, Lilla became acquainted with

387
00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:11.720
a variety of shady characters and liked to have these

388
00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:14.759
people over so she wasn't lonely. Being at her house

389
00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:18.240
was fun, like a NonStop party. Lilla seemed more like

390
00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:22.039
a cool mom or grandma than a shady underworld character.

391
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:25.200
When Cleete came to Houston on that trip, he brought

392
00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:27.839
a friend, a guy that made his living as a burglar.

393
00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:31.720
Cleete told Marcia, if anything happens to me, this guy

394
00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:35.400
can take care of you. His name Bobby van Derver.

395
00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:38.960
Marsha liked him. He was funny and his voice sounded

396
00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:42.319
a lot like Don Meredith. So when Clete ended up

397
00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:45.400
in prison, Marcia started hanging out with Bobby y.

398
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:48.000
So, I know, we've introduced a lot of new names

399
00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:49.920
and characters, but let me kind of break it down

400
00:19:49.960 --> 00:19:51.759
and give you kind of the important ones to keep

401
00:19:51.799 --> 00:19:54.039
in mind. So he traced the gun back to this

402
00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:57.200
doctor Mitchell. He's not really important in this story, but

403
00:19:57.319 --> 00:20:00.000
it was from doctor Mitchell that Marcia got the guns.

404
00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:04.319
So Marsha stole the gun from doctor Mitchell. She knew Bobby,

405
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:07.759
she knew Lilla. So Bobby, Lilla, and Marsha are all

406
00:20:08.119 --> 00:20:11.680
pretty important going forward in the story. Gotcha, Bobby van

407
00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:15.079
Derver grew up in Venus, Texas, a quiet farming community

408
00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:17.960
south of Dallas. In high school, he was a standout

409
00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:21.519
vice president of his class, a star athlete, a good student,

410
00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:24.480
and popular with the girls, but the promise of his

411
00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:28.119
youth quickly gave way to poor decisions. After high school,

412
00:20:28.160 --> 00:20:30.880
Bobby fell in love with a woman named Maudine, and

413
00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:34.480
together they dabbled in small time check forgery. It didn't

414
00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:38.039
last long. Both were arrested and given probation, but when

415
00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:42.000
Maudeine violated her terms, she went to prison. The experience

416
00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:45.279
pushed Bobby to shift his focus to burglary, believing it

417
00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:47.079
to be a better way to make a quick buck.

418
00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:51.440
His first attempt at burglary ended in embarrassment. Bobby stole

419
00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:54.279
a safe from a doctor's office, but dropped it while

420
00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:57.880
loading it into his car, smashing his finger in the process.

421
00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:01.440
The police later found a thin slice of his fingertip

422
00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:04.759
at the scene, making it, as they joked, the easiest

423
00:21:04.759 --> 00:21:09.359
fingerprint match they had ever Enkillner. Despite the setback, Bobby

424
00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:13.720
was undeterred. He refined his methods, adopting brown work gloves

425
00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:17.279
and a ski mask as his trademark. How original, By

426
00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:20.400
nineteen seventy. At thirty one years old, Bobby had already

427
00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:23.119
served a couple of short prison stints. He fell in

428
00:21:23.160 --> 00:21:25.599
love with Vicki, a woman with two children from a

429
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:28.519
previous marriage, and tried to go straight to support his

430
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:32.000
new family, But honest work didn't pay enough, especially as

431
00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:36.599
Vicky faced a complicated pregnancy that required medical care. Desperate,

432
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:39.960
Bobby returned to burglary and even dabbled in pimping to

433
00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:43.680
make ends meet. Around this time, Marcia McKittrick, who Bobby

434
00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:46.400
had met earlier, gave him a call. She told him

435
00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:49.559
about a potential job from Lila Paulis, the woman in

436
00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:52.440
whose home they had hung out together in Houston. Bobby

437
00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:55.799
traveled to Houston to hear the details. At first, Bobby

438
00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:59.920
flatly refused this wasn't a burglary, it was something far riskier.

439
00:22:00.279 --> 00:22:02.599
He wasn't an assassin, and he knew the job had

440
00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:06.079
already been turned down by two others for being too dangerous.

441
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:08.880
But that night, when Bobby came home, he learned that

442
00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:11.640
Vicki's pregnancy had taken a turn for the worse and

443
00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:15.359
the baby might not survive. Faced with mounting desperation, he

444
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:19.440
reconsidered Returning to Marcia, Bobby said, I'll do the job.

445
00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:23.160
After Bobby killed John Hill, he fled in a panic,

446
00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:27.319
tossing the briefcase and gun induced some nearby shrubbery. Marcia,

447
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:29.519
who had dropped him off at the mansion, waited for

448
00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:32.799
him down the road. Once they reunited, the pair drove

449
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:36.119
back to Lilla Paulus's house in Houston, where Bobby collected

450
00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:39.079
five thousand dollars for the job, but Lilla took a

451
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:42.839
fifteen hundred dollars cut for expenses and her finder's fee,

452
00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:46.279
leaving Bobby with just thirty five hundred dollars, a meager

453
00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:50.400
payoff for a high profile assassination. That same night, Bobby

454
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:53.839
and Marsha drove back to Dallas. Bobby immediately shaved his

455
00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:56.799
mustache and bleached his hair. When they heard the news

456
00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:00.119
that the murder weapon had been found, they panicked. Bobby

457
00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:02.279
used some of his earnings to buy a car, and

458
00:23:02.359 --> 00:23:06.880
the pair fled to California. In California, their relationship quickly

459
00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:10.519
fell apart. Bobby returned to burglary to make money, while

460
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:14.640
Marcia descended into heroin addiction. Eventually, she left Bobby and

461
00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:18.960
headed for Las Vegas. Returning to prostitution, her addiction deepened,

462
00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:22.960
and so did her despair. Overwhelmed by paranoia and depression,

463
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:26.960
Marcia attempted suicide at the Desert Inn, swallowing seventy two

464
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:31.400
barbiturates and injecting heroin. As she started losing consciousness, she

465
00:23:31.480 --> 00:23:35.079
stumbled into the hotel lobby and collapsed. Marcia woke up

466
00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:37.720
in a hospital bed to find Bobby standing over her.

467
00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:40.279
Are you ready to come home, he asked, but of

468
00:23:40.319 --> 00:23:42.559
course they didn't have a home. The pair hit the

469
00:23:42.599 --> 00:23:45.400
road again, this time to lay low in Palm Springs.

470
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:48.640
The news about John Hill's murder in Texas had begun

471
00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:51.680
to fade, and Bobby hatched a plan to make some money,

472
00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:55.839
secure fake passports, and flee the country, but their volatile

473
00:23:55.880 --> 00:24:01.039
relationship was doomed. Bobby's temper and Marcia's addiction fueled constant conflict.

474
00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:04.920
Marcia eventually left again, returning to Las Vegas, where she

475
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:09.000
contracted hepatitis from a dirty needle. Afterwards, she decided to

476
00:24:09.079 --> 00:24:12.279
visit her mother and her son in Texas, cleaning up briefly,

477
00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:15.440
but before long, Marcia was back on the road, falling

478
00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:19.599
into old habits. Meanwhile, detectives Gamino and Carpenter had begun

479
00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:23.200
closing in. They arrived at Marcia's mother's house not long

480
00:24:23.240 --> 00:24:26.240
after she left again. They warned her mother that Marcia

481
00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:28.559
was in danger her life might be at risk. To

482
00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:32.119
insure her silence, her mother begged her to turn herself in,

483
00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:36.240
but Marcia kept running, always one step ahead. As for Bobby,

484
00:24:36.359 --> 00:24:39.200
he returned to Texas and hid out at his sister's house.

485
00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:42.160
Realizing the police were closing in on him as well,

486
00:24:42.519 --> 00:24:45.079
he called a trusted friend who offered him a secluded

487
00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:48.599
cabin near a lake outside the city. With no better options,

488
00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:51.559
Bobby decided to go into hiding there, hoping to stay

489
00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:54.720
ahead of the law. It turns out trust isn't exactly

490
00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:58.240
a strong currency among criminals. The friend who had generously

491
00:24:58.279 --> 00:25:01.119
offered Bobby the use of that remote cabin, he went

492
00:25:01.160 --> 00:25:04.359
straight to the Dallas police and ratted him out. Dallas

493
00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:07.440
authorities tipped off their counterparts in Houston, and the very

494
00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:11.599
next day, three cars carrying eight officers surrounded the secluded

495
00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:15.480
hideout and arrested Bobby. This would be Bobby's fourth felony,

496
00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:18.440
which meant he was staring down an automatic life sentence.

497
00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:21.519
Under Texas law. The next step was a lineup for

498
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:25.799
the three eye witnesses, Myra, Connie, and Robert. Connie went first,

499
00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:27.480
but she couldn't make a positive ID.

500
00:25:28.359 --> 00:25:30.799
To remind everyone, there's been a lot of names. Connie

501
00:25:31.160 --> 00:25:36.319
is John Hill's third or third wife, Yes, that's witness correct.

502
00:25:36.440 --> 00:25:40.559
And Robert his son, and Myra his mother correct. I

503
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:42.160
was just getting a little confused. I don't know if

504
00:25:42.200 --> 00:25:43.440
anyone else is confused out there.

505
00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:45.279
So yeah, there's a lot of names. So yes, it's great,

506
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:48.799
great call up. After Connie wasn't able to make an ID,

507
00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:52.240
Robert followed. He managed to narrow it down to Bobby

508
00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:54.799
or one other man in the lineup, but he couldn't

509
00:25:54.839 --> 00:25:58.319
be sure. Then it was Myra's turn. She didn't hesitate.

510
00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:00.759
She pointed at Bobby without a sh shred of doubt.

511
00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:04.119
This was the man that she had seen. Despite the

512
00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:08.440
mounting evidence, Bobby insisted he was innocent. Detective Carpenter decided

513
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:11.440
to take a gamble. He casually dropped the name Lilla

514
00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:15.279
Paulus during questioning. It wasn't a sure thing. Carpenter didn't

515
00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:18.200
know for certain if Bobby and Lilla were connected, but

516
00:26:18.279 --> 00:26:22.079
Bobby's reaction gave him away. His eyes widened and he said,

517
00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:25.119
oh wow, you know her name. That was all that

518
00:26:25.160 --> 00:26:28.599
Carpenter needed. Sometimes a little instinct and a well placed

519
00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:31.359
punch can go a long way. Bobby sat in his

520
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:34.000
cell thinking it over. He knew that he was in deep,

521
00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:37.240
but he still had some cards to play. Eventually, he

522
00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:40.720
asked to talk about cutting a deal enter Bob Bennett,

523
00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:44.319
a young assistant DA. When Bennett met with them, detectives

524
00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:47.799
Gamino and Carpenter made their position clear. They were confident

525
00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:50.519
Bobby had pulled the trigger, but there were bigger fish

526
00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:53.960
to fry, especially whoever had ordered the hit. They needed

527
00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:57.839
Bobby's help to unravel the whole web. Bennett didn't sugarcoat it.

528
00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:00.519
He told Bobby there was no escaping prison in time.

529
00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:03.480
But he also knew that Bobby wasn't the mastermind. He

530
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:06.119
was just a pawn in a much larger game. So

531
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:10.200
Bennett made a surprisingly generous offer. Twelve years behind bars

532
00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:14.200
in exchange for full cooperation with good behavior, Bobby could

533
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:17.759
be out in five. Bobby wrestled with the decision. He

534
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:20.160
called his sister, who urged him to lawyer up, but

535
00:27:20.279 --> 00:27:24.000
Bobby waved her off. The real battle was internal. On

536
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:27.000
one hand, there was the street code no snitching. On

537
00:27:27.079 --> 00:27:30.440
the other, refusing to cooperate could mean dying in prison,

538
00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:33.680
or worse, maybe someone on the outside would decide to

539
00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:36.079
tie up loose ends and get rid of Bobby. The

540
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:40.200
risks were enormous either way. Finally, after hours of agonizing

541
00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:42.599
over what to do, Bobby made up his mind. He

542
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:45.359
was ready to talk, and we'll be back after a

543
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:54.440
break before we go on. Do you want to have

544
00:27:54.440 --> 00:27:55.640
a little halftime snack?

545
00:27:55.960 --> 00:27:57.160
No, I don't, but I want you to.

546
00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:00.920
Okay, Well, why don't tell people what we have here?

547
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:02.720
This has been kicking around our house for a while.

548
00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:06.160
It's some special oreos that I got for you and

549
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:08.440
also used as a torture device.

550
00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:12.160
I think they are or Coca Cola with popping candy

551
00:28:12.279 --> 00:28:15.039
flavor oreos, which sounds terrible to me.

552
00:28:15.400 --> 00:28:17.799
Yeah, well, you love oreos, so I thought maybe you'd

553
00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:18.160
like them.

554
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:19.640
Maybe I'll give I think I.

555
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:22.519
Bought them like at Christmas for you to try, and

556
00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:24.799
I didn't want it to vote a whole snack segment

557
00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:26.400
to them. So do you want to just give them

558
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:26.920
a quick try?

559
00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:27.200
Yep?

560
00:28:27.640 --> 00:28:28.799
They smell like coke.

561
00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:36.839
Well that was even worse than I thought.

562
00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:41.680
Your sister sent us a package too for Christmas. We

563
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:43.559
actually have two packages of these.

564
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:49.279
They're really not. Oreo and Coca Cola flavors do not

565
00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:49.799
go together.

566
00:28:50.519 --> 00:28:54.599
The coke flavor is somewhat subdued, but it's still there.

567
00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:58.519
It's just no awful. So you were laughing at me

568
00:28:58.599 --> 00:29:00.599
when I was eating my oreo? How do you eat

569
00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:01.119
an oreo?

570
00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:05.720
Just like a normal person. You take a bite out

571
00:29:05.720 --> 00:29:07.240
of it and then another bite.

572
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:09.440
I like to take mine apart. Yeah, so I don't

573
00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:11.400
know if that makes me weird or you're the weird one.

574
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:13.400
Only time I take an oreo apart is what I'm

575
00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:18.160
making my own double stuff or quadruple stuff. I tink

576
00:29:18.200 --> 00:29:19.880
two oreos and put.

577
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:23.039
I don't believe I've seen you do that. No, well, okay,

578
00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:25.680
so you just take them apart, like scrape the frost, get.

579
00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:27.880
Rid of a couple of the chocolate parts, and.

580
00:29:27.880 --> 00:29:29.359
What do you would throw them away?

581
00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:29.599
No?

582
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:31.559
I would eat them, but I wouldn't enjoy that part

583
00:29:31.559 --> 00:29:31.880
of it.

584
00:29:32.200 --> 00:29:34.440
Okay, very interesting.

585
00:29:34.359 --> 00:29:35.920
We should probably get back to our story.

586
00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:38.839
Well, wait, what would you rate the oreo from one

587
00:29:38.839 --> 00:29:39.160
to ten?

588
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:39.480
One?

589
00:29:39.799 --> 00:29:42.680
One? Yeah? I would I would also rate it one.

590
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:47.440
For six long days, Bobby van der Wert spilled everything

591
00:29:47.480 --> 00:29:50.720
he knew to Carpenter and Gamino. He detailed his rocky

592
00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:54.920
relationship with Marcia, their time at Lila Paulus's house, and

593
00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:57.640
when he first heard about a contract to kill John

594
00:29:57.680 --> 00:30:01.599
Hill back in August nineteen seventy two. Bobby revealed that

595
00:30:01.640 --> 00:30:04.519
the original plan was to take John out in Las Vegas,

596
00:30:04.839 --> 00:30:07.720
where he was supposed to attend a plastic surgery convention,

597
00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:11.160
but John and Connie's last minute detour to San Francisco

598
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:14.160
threw a wrench in the works. Bobby and Marsha spent

599
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:17.400
two days in Vegas trying to track him down before

600
00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:20.359
realizing they needed a new plan, and they headed back

601
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:23.799
to Houston. Lilla had told Bobby the target was quote

602
00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:27.039
a doctor who had killed his wife and guess who

603
00:30:27.079 --> 00:30:31.160
she said had ordered the hit. That's right, Ash Robinson,

604
00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:35.079
Well sort of. She never named him directly, referring to

605
00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:38.440
him only as the wife's father or the old man.

606
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:41.720
Lilla handed Bobby a photo of John that the old

607
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:45.079
Man had provided. It wasn't just any picture, it had

608
00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:48.839
been cut into the shape of a coffin. Lilla reportedly

609
00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:51.759
pointed to it and said, you think this motherfucker doesn't

610
00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:54.160
want him dead, just look at how he cut the picture.

611
00:30:54.839 --> 00:30:57.440
Everything Bobby shared, including all of the details of the

612
00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:00.920
hit itself, checked out with what the detective already knew

613
00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:04.079
about the case. He was telling the truth. But Bobby's

614
00:31:04.119 --> 00:31:07.799
testimony alone wouldn't be enough to take down Lilla and Ash.

615
00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:11.680
They needed concrete evidence to back up his claims. That's

616
00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:15.279
when Bob Bennett decided to lay a trap for Ash Robinson.

617
00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:18.279
He had Bobby call him up while they were recording.

618
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:22.960
When Ash answered, Bobby said, mister Robinson, this is Bobby

619
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:26.000
van Derver. I did a job for you. There was

620
00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:30.480
a long, tense pause. Finally Ash responded, oh yes, But

621
00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:33.799
it wasn't the admission they were hoping for. It sounded

622
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:37.480
more like Ash was saying, get to the point. Bobby continued,

623
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:40.079
I need to get a hold of Lilla real bad.

624
00:31:40.279 --> 00:31:42.000
I can't find her. Do you know where she is?

625
00:31:42.559 --> 00:31:46.400
Another long pause. Then Ash replied, no, I haven't seen

626
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:48.480
Lilla in six months and don't know how to get

627
00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:52.599
in touch with her. Click. He hung up. Ash Robinson

628
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:55.519
didn't bite. The bait was set, but the old man

629
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:59.680
wasn't falling for it, at least not yet. On April

630
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:02.480
twenty five, fifth, nineteen seventy five, the case took a

631
00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:06.400
dramatic turn. A grand jury handed down secret indictments for

632
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:09.400
our first degree murder against Bobby van Derver thirty three

633
00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:13.480
and Marcia McKittrick twenty three. They also hit Lilla Paulas

634
00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:17.079
fifty four with an accomplice to murder charge, but they

635
00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:21.279
still didn't have anything solid on Ash Robinson. The case

636
00:32:21.319 --> 00:32:24.640
against Lilla was shaky at best. Investigators knew it hinged

637
00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:29.400
on tracking down Marsha, who remained elusive. Meanwhile, they arrested

638
00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:33.720
Lilla without incident and searched her home. The hall not much,

639
00:32:33.880 --> 00:32:36.920
just a few scraps of paper with cryptic notes. One

640
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:39.759
had a phone number scrawled next to the name Dusty.

641
00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:43.079
And Dusty was the name that Marcia used as a prostitute, okay.

642
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:46.960
Another listed a Houston hotel where Marcia had worked, and

643
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:49.480
the third a phone number that led to a private

644
00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:52.359
line Ash Robinson had briefly used around the time of

645
00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:56.559
John's murder. Coincidence maybe, but the pieces were starting to

646
00:32:56.640 --> 00:33:01.359
line up. Detectives Carpenter and Camino, along with assistant DA

647
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:05.440
Bob Bennett, decided it was time to rattle Ash's cage.

648
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:08.279
Late one night, just shy of midnight, they showed up

649
00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:11.680
at his door step. Ash, wearing his pajamas, opened the

650
00:33:11.720 --> 00:33:16.160
door and cordially invited them in. The tree wasted no time.

651
00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:19.799
They told Ash about Lilla's arrest and casually mentioned that

652
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:23.440
they suspected he might be involved in John's murder. Ash

653
00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:27.359
didn't flinch. Instead, he smiled and said, well, boys, I

654
00:33:27.400 --> 00:33:30.400
wouldn't know anything about that. They pressed him for more,

655
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:33.480
but ashe stood up gesturing towards the door, I don't

656
00:33:33.480 --> 00:33:36.359
believe I should talk to you, gentlemen further, unless it

657
00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:39.240
is in the presence of my lawyer, and I might

658
00:33:39.319 --> 00:33:42.640
remind you, gentlemen, and I stressed this strongly, you should

659
00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:46.640
be very careful what you say about me. With that,

660
00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:50.400
he slammed the door shut behind them. Walking away from

661
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:54.359
the house, Jerry Carpenter couldn't help but remark quote, that's

662
00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:57.559
one cool old son of a bitch. He wasn't wrong.

663
00:33:58.279 --> 00:33:59.920
Marcia was out of the loop when it came to

664
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:03.119
the Houston arrests. It wasn't until she called her mom

665
00:34:03.160 --> 00:34:04.960
that she got the wake up call of her life.

666
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:08.079
Her mom told her, you'd better pick up a newspaper.

667
00:34:08.440 --> 00:34:11.239
You and Bobby are all over it. She also gave

668
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:14.880
Marcia some solid advice. Call a lawyer she knew, a

669
00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:18.239
good one by the name of Charles Caperton. At first,

670
00:34:18.280 --> 00:34:21.559
Marcia's gut reaction was to bolt again. What reality started

671
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:23.840
to set in. She knew it was only a matter

672
00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:26.519
of time before the authorities caught up with her, so

673
00:34:26.559 --> 00:34:29.119
she took her mother's advice and reached out to Caperton.

674
00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:33.199
The seasoned lawyer didn't waste any time. He flew to Houston,

675
00:34:33.400 --> 00:34:36.519
met up with Marcia, and personally escorted her to the

676
00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:40.239
Harris County court House, where she turned herself in. But

677
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:43.639
here's the kicker. Capertin was one step ahead of everyone.

678
00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:47.199
He'd already arranged her bond, so the moment she surrendered,

679
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:50.519
he whisked her right back to Dallas. By the time

680
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:54.320
detectives Carpenter and Gamino got wind of it, Marcia was

681
00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:57.519
already long gone. They were none too pleased at having

682
00:34:57.559 --> 00:35:01.679
missed the opportunity to question her. Capertin gave Marsha clear

683
00:35:01.719 --> 00:35:05.280
instructions keep a low profile, stay out of trouble, and

684
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:10.440
most importantly, don't talk to anyone, especially the police. Your

685
00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:12.679
only job is to talk to me, he told her,

686
00:35:12.920 --> 00:35:16.360
and with that, Marsha's legal strategy was in motion.

687
00:35:17.320 --> 00:35:20.880
With investigators clearly targeting him, Ash decided to take a

688
00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:24.159
private polygraph exam. He went to New York for it,

689
00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:28.079
and no law enforcement representatives were there. He emerged with

690
00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:30.239
a signed letter saying that he had answered all the

691
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:33.440
questions truthfully and that he had no involvement in the

692
00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:34.599
murder of John Hill.

693
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:37.199
That was so nice of him to go take care

694
00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:40.480
of that, helping with the investigation. I'm sure the police

695
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:43.039
just took it and said thank you so much.

696
00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:45.599
Ash Well. In fact, when word of the polygraph reached

697
00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:48.960
Bob Bennett, he laughed and said, if he's all that innocent,

698
00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:50.599
then why does old Ash have to run all the

699
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:52.800
way off to New York and get one done secretly.

700
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:55.760
We'll be happy to interrogate him here. We'll even send

701
00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:58.960
a car. Because they were co indicted, Bobby and Lilla

702
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:02.519
were to stand trial together, Bob Bennett had one priority

703
00:36:02.679 --> 00:36:05.840
keeping his star witness, Bobby Vanderver, safe and out of

704
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:08.840
trouble before the trial. To make that happen, he pulled

705
00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:12.239
some strings. He set Bobby up with a small efficiency

706
00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:16.039
apartment in Houston and brought in Bobby's girlfriend, Vicky, knowing

707
00:36:16.079 --> 00:36:18.519
that she was his best shot at keeping him grounded.

708
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:22.000
Bennett even found Vicky a waitress job and slipped Bobby

709
00:36:22.039 --> 00:36:24.559
a bit of pocket money to keep things running smoothly.

710
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:28.119
But life in hiding wasn't exactly thrilling for Bobby. He

711
00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:31.199
couldn't step outside unless someone from the DA's office was

712
00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:34.119
with him. Most days he just sat around watching TV

713
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:37.519
bore it out of his mind. In June nineteen seventy three,

714
00:36:37.639 --> 00:36:40.840
Bobby came to Bennett with a request. Vicky was locked

715
00:36:40.840 --> 00:36:43.639
in a custody battle with her first husband over her

716
00:36:43.719 --> 00:36:46.159
two kids, and she needed to be in Dallas for

717
00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:49.000
a court hearing. Bobby asked if he could tag along.

718
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:53.000
Bennett hesitated. He had grown to trust Bobby, but he

719
00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:56.559
wasn't entirely sure about letting him leave. After some thought, though,

720
00:36:56.639 --> 00:36:59.320
he agreed. What was supposed to be a quick trip

721
00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:03.079
stretched into something longer. The custody hearing got delayed, and

722
00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:05.960
then the court ordered Vicky to establish a proper home

723
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:09.239
in Dallas if she wanted to win custody Bobby asked

724
00:37:09.239 --> 00:37:12.599
for more time, and Bennett, wanting to support his key witness,

725
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:15.679
granted permission for Bobby to stay a couple more months

726
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:19.800
until the trial got underway. In the meantime, detectives Carpenter

727
00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:22.559
and Gamino were desperate to get Marcia McKittrick into an

728
00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:25.679
interrogation room. They believed that she held the key to

729
00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:30.280
strengthening their case against Lillapoulus and possibly tying Ash Robinson

730
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:33.599
directly to the murder plot. They suspected that Marcia had

731
00:37:33.639 --> 00:37:38.119
overheard conversations between Lilla and Ash, maybe even witnessed them

732
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:41.159
exchanging money. If they had to bust her for jaywalking

733
00:37:41.199 --> 00:37:44.119
to make it happen, they would, but Marcia, sticking to

734
00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:48.119
her lawyer's advice, refused to say a word. Her heroin addiction, though,

735
00:37:48.159 --> 00:37:51.960
had other plans. Desperate for cash, Marcia headed to Lubbock

736
00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:55.280
and turned to prostitution to fund her habit. An informant

737
00:37:55.320 --> 00:37:58.440
tipped off the local police and she was arrested. When

738
00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:01.280
Carpenter and Gamino got the call, they were thrilled this

739
00:38:01.480 --> 00:38:04.519
was their shot. The Lublic police arranged to put Marcia

740
00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:07.440
on a plane to Houston, where the detectives were waiting

741
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:10.880
to pounce, but Marcia had other ideas. The plane made

742
00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:14.719
a stop in Austin, and she vanished once again. Carpenter,

743
00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:18.039
waiting at the Houston airport, was furious when Marcia didn't show.

744
00:38:18.679 --> 00:38:21.159
From Austin, Marcia made her way back to Dallas and

745
00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:23.960
ended up at the home of a drug dealer named Claude.

746
00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:27.239
By late June nineteen seventy three, her heroin use had

747
00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:30.760
spiraled out of control. On September twenty first, after a

748
00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:34.800
blowout fight with Claude, Marcia stole his Chrysler, a diamond ring,

749
00:38:34.840 --> 00:38:37.719
and a book of payroll checks from his company. She

750
00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:40.360
tried to cash a forged check in Dallas, but got

751
00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:44.000
caught again. This time, Carpenter and Gamino weren't leaving it

752
00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:46.679
to chance. They drove the two hundred and sixty miles

753
00:38:46.679 --> 00:38:49.519
to Dallas to pick her up themselves. It was their

754
00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:52.199
first face to face meeting with Marcia, and she was

755
00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:55.440
in bad shape, deep in withdrawal, and furious with her

756
00:38:55.519 --> 00:38:59.360
lawyer for not returning her calls. Marcia finally broke She

757
00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:03.079
gave the de actives a detailed confession. Her story lined

758
00:39:03.159 --> 00:39:07.079
up with Bobby Vandiver's but offered even more damning details.

759
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:10.400
Marcia claimed that in early summer nineteen seventy two, while

760
00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:13.719
she was staying at Lilla's house, Ash Robinson had come by.

761
00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:16.840
She overheard him saying that he couldn't get custody of

762
00:39:16.840 --> 00:39:20.159
his grandson unless John Hill was either dead or convicted

763
00:39:20.199 --> 00:39:23.719
of his daughter's murder. Even more explosive, Marcia said that

764
00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:26.400
she had seen Ash give Lilla a total of twenty

765
00:39:26.440 --> 00:39:29.880
five thousand dollars money that she believed was for the hit.

766
00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:32.599
Wasn't Bobby paid five thousand dollars?

767
00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:36.400
Yeah, he really got ripped off, I would say. After

768
00:39:36.440 --> 00:39:39.880
her confession, the detectives arranged for Marcia to receive treatment

769
00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:42.760
for her heroine withdrawal, but once the worst of it

770
00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:45.639
was over, her story changed. She demanded to see her

771
00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:49.519
lawyer and claimed that the confession had been coerced, insisting

772
00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:52.400
that she had only spoken under pressure to get medical help.

773
00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:55.440
Bobby Vandever, who had been living in Dallas with Bob

774
00:39:55.440 --> 00:39:58.559
Bennett's permission, kept his word and showed up for his

775
00:39:58.599 --> 00:40:02.239
trial in September as promised, But when he arrived, Bennett

776
00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:05.119
had some bad news. The trial had been delayed for

777
00:40:05.159 --> 00:40:10.480
seven months. Rescheduled for April nineteen seventy four. Bobby was crushed.

778
00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:13.119
He pleaded with Bennett to let him return to Dallas

779
00:40:13.239 --> 00:40:15.239
so that he could spend the remaining months of his

780
00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:19.199
freedom with Vicki, her children, and his sister. At first,

781
00:40:19.239 --> 00:40:22.239
Bennett refused, it was too risky to let Bobby out

782
00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:25.559
of his sight, but Bobby's desperation and the trust that

783
00:40:25.559 --> 00:40:29.599
Bennett had developed in him wore him down. Bennett reluctantly

784
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:32.719
agreed on one condition. Bobby had to call and check

785
00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:36.440
in every week, and Bobby did like clockwork. He called

786
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:38.719
Bennett assuring him that he would show up for the

787
00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:42.079
rescheduled trial in April. The week before the big day,

788
00:40:42.119 --> 00:40:45.360
Bobby called again to confirm he would be there Monday morning,

789
00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:49.599
no problem. But when Monday came, Bobby was a no show.

790
00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:53.239
Bennett sat in court alone, dreading the moment that he'd

791
00:40:53.239 --> 00:40:55.519
have to admit to the judge that his star witness

792
00:40:55.519 --> 00:40:58.760
had disappeared. Just as things were about to go sideways,

793
00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:03.119
Bennett caught a lucky briin Lilla. Paulis's attorney requested a delay,

794
00:41:03.639 --> 00:41:07.800
citing her recent cancer diagnosis. The judge granted it, pushing

795
00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:11.239
the trial back to the fall. Bennett wasted no time.

796
00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:14.840
He had Bobby's fifteen thousand dollars bond revoked and the

797
00:41:14.920 --> 00:41:18.199
hunt for his missing witness began. The clock was ticking,

798
00:41:18.239 --> 00:41:21.360
and Bennett knew that without Bobby, the case against Lilla

799
00:41:21.480 --> 00:41:23.159
and the others could crumble.

800
00:41:23.920 --> 00:41:27.400
A long View, Texas police officer named John Reimer worked

801
00:41:27.400 --> 00:41:30.360
the midnight patrol shift. Long View is a quiet town

802
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:33.159
about one hundred twenty miles east of Dallas and two

803
00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:37.760
hundred miles north of Houston. During his shifts, Raymer often

804
00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:41.119
stopped by the Continental Cafe, an all night diner where

805
00:41:41.119 --> 00:41:44.679
locals and night owls gathered. As a cop, Raymer had

806
00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:47.320
a sharp eye for anything out of place, and one

807
00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:51.320
thing kept catching his attention. An old yellow ford parked

808
00:41:51.320 --> 00:41:55.320
outside the cafe, sometimes for days at a time. Curiosity

809
00:41:55.360 --> 00:41:57.960
got the better of him, and one night he decided

810
00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:01.199
to stick around and see who the owner was. Eventually,

811
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:03.800
the driver walked in. He was a skinny white guy,

812
00:42:03.920 --> 00:42:06.880
probably in his early thirties, a bit rough looking with

813
00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:11.599
a troopy mustache. One of the cafe employees called him

814
00:42:11.719 --> 00:42:14.719
Jac and it was clear he had taken a liking

815
00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:19.039
to a new waitress named Vicki. Raymer's instincts told him

816
00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:22.599
something was off. Was this JC in town to sell drugs?

817
00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:25.440
Was he a pimp? Or maybe he was just laying low.

818
00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:28.679
Whatever it was, Raymer decided to let it rest for

819
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:32.639
the moment. That changed when Raymer overheard some chatter. The

820
00:42:32.719 --> 00:42:36.159
man's real name wasn't JC, it was Bobby. He was

821
00:42:36.199 --> 00:42:38.920
in serious trouble, he carried a gun, and he might

822
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:42.800
even be dangerous. Raymer sent Bobby's name a description out

823
00:42:42.840 --> 00:42:46.360
to nearby police departments. Soon he got a hit. This

824
00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:50.000
was likely Bobby van Derver, wanted in Houston for skipping

825
00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:53.199
bail in connection with the murder case. What Raymer didn't

826
00:42:53.239 --> 00:42:56.119
know was that Bobby wasn't just wanted, he was a

827
00:42:56.199 --> 00:42:59.719
key witness in a high profile case. Raymer decided it

828
00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:02.800
was to act. One night, he brought back up and

829
00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:06.360
headed to the cafe. Bobby was playing pool when Ramer

830
00:43:06.480 --> 00:43:11.119
quietly approached him, gun drawn, Raymer called out Bobby. Bobby

831
00:43:11.159 --> 00:43:13.519
looked up and froze for a second, and then went

832
00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:16.199
for the gun he was carrying. At the same time,

833
00:43:16.280 --> 00:43:19.480
he grabbed the barrel of Raymer's weapon, trying to rustle

834
00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:23.039
it away. Raymer didn't wait. He fired, but the shot

835
00:43:23.079 --> 00:43:27.199
went into the floor, deflected by Bobby's grip. The second shot, though,

836
00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:30.800
hit Bobby's square in the chest. As he collapsed, the

837
00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:34.840
cafe erupted into chaos. Vicky, who had been in the bathroom,

838
00:43:34.920 --> 00:43:39.119
ran out, screaming, you've killed Bobby. Indeed, Bobby van Derver

839
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:42.880
was dead. When Assistant DA Bob Bennett got the call,

840
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:46.320
he was devastated. Bobby's death was a disaster for the

841
00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:50.519
case against Lilla Paulus. Bobby had been the cornerstone of

842
00:43:50.599 --> 00:43:55.039
the prosecution's strategy, and without him everything was in jeopardy.

843
00:43:55.559 --> 00:43:59.719
At first, rumors swirled. Did Raymer kill Bobby intentionally? Was

844
00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:02.519
he paid off by someone trying to protect Lilla or

845
00:44:02.559 --> 00:44:07.559
Ash Robinson. An investigation cleared Ramer of any wrongdoing. Witnesses

846
00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:10.480
at the cafe confirmed that Bobby had reached for his gun,

847
00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:13.039
and the fact that Raymer had called in back up

848
00:44:13.079 --> 00:44:16.960
ahead of time further supported his story. It seemed clear

849
00:44:17.199 --> 00:44:20.159
Bobby's death was a tragic result of his own split

850
00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:23.599
second decision to fight back for Bennett and the prosecution.

851
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:27.159
Though it didn't matter why Bobby died, what mattered was

852
00:44:27.199 --> 00:44:30.079
that he was gone, and so was their strongest chance

853
00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:33.559
at justice. Bob Bennett was in a bind and the

854
00:44:33.639 --> 00:44:36.800
case was slipping through his fingers. The triggerman and key

855
00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:40.639
witness was dead. Marsha McKittrick, his other start witness, had

856
00:44:40.639 --> 00:44:44.400
turned on him, claiming her confession was coursed. Now she

857
00:44:44.599 --> 00:44:48.320
wasn't cooperating either. Bennett still believed Ash was behind the

858
00:44:48.360 --> 00:44:51.599
contract killing, with Lilla acting as the go between, but

859
00:44:51.639 --> 00:44:54.000
he started to doubt either one of them would ever

860
00:44:54.119 --> 00:44:57.920
face justice, and time wasn't on his side. Ash was

861
00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:01.039
pushing eighty and Lilla had just been dying, diagnosed with cancer.

862
00:45:01.480 --> 00:45:04.199
Even if he managed to secure a conviction, that was

863
00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:07.159
looking less and less likely that either of them would

864
00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:11.880
serve any meaningful prison time. His strongest case, ironically, it

865
00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:15.760
was against Marsha, the least culpable of the trio. Bennett

866
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:19.719
had his investigators dig intot Ash's finances, hoping to find

867
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:23.880
a smoking gun proof that Ash had paid Lila, but

868
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:27.639
they came up empty. The only real evidence Bennett had

869
00:45:27.639 --> 00:45:31.440
against Dash was the confessions, one from Bobby, now dead,

870
00:45:31.480 --> 00:45:34.519
and the other from Marsha, who had completely flipped on him.

871
00:45:34.719 --> 00:45:37.320
It has to be so frustrating as a prosecutor, like,

872
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:40.440
you know who is behind this, but you just can't

873
00:45:40.599 --> 00:45:42.639
prove it, and you just lost your star witness.

874
00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:46.159
Yeah. By late October nineteen seventy four, the trial date

875
00:45:46.199 --> 00:45:49.119
was set. Marcia was just charged with murder and Lilla

876
00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:54.239
as an accomplice. But then blow after blow hit the prosecution. First,

877
00:45:54.280 --> 00:45:57.079
the judge granted a pre trial motion from Lilla's defense

878
00:45:57.159 --> 00:46:02.440
team to exclude Bobby's confession, the reasoning, the sixth Amendment

879
00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:05.159
gives you the right to confront your accuser, and you

880
00:46:05.239 --> 00:46:09.880
can't exactly cross examine a dead man. Then another got punched.

881
00:46:10.039 --> 00:46:13.480
The judge ruled that Marsha's confession could only be used

882
00:46:13.559 --> 00:46:17.800
against her, not against Lila. Lila's lawyer was ecstatic. His

883
00:46:17.920 --> 00:46:20.480
whole strategy was to keep his client as far away

884
00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:23.440
from Marcia as possible. He asked for a delay until

885
00:46:23.480 --> 00:46:27.679
February nineteen seventy five, and the judge granted it. Suddenly

886
00:46:27.719 --> 00:46:30.880
there was no longer a trial for both women. Marcia

887
00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:34.760
was going it alone. Marsha's lawyer, meanwhile, saw the writing

888
00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:37.719
on the wall. He believed an appeals court would eventually

889
00:46:37.719 --> 00:46:40.519
agree that her confession should have been tossed out, but

890
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:43.360
he didn't want to risk a drawn out trial. Instead,

891
00:46:43.400 --> 00:46:46.679
he took an unusual approach. He stipulated to the evidence,

892
00:46:46.760 --> 00:46:50.039
objected to the confession, and let the judge sentence her.

893
00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:52.880
His thinking, if they were going to lose any way,

894
00:46:52.920 --> 00:46:55.960
better to cut their losses and start working on the appeal.

895
00:46:56.400 --> 00:46:59.599
The result, Marcia was sentenced to ten years in prison.

896
00:47:00.039 --> 00:47:03.000
A little confused by all the legal leese stuff in here,

897
00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:06.559
but essentially Marsha's lawyer just said, we're going to bypass

898
00:47:06.599 --> 00:47:08.519
a trial. We're going to go to like a bench trial.

899
00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:11.679
We're going to agree to let the evidence in except

900
00:47:11.679 --> 00:47:14.840
for Marsha's confession. We're going to say we object to that.

901
00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:18.079
Judge just go ahead and sentence her, and then he

902
00:47:18.119 --> 00:47:19.639
would just start working on the appeal.

903
00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:22.880
After the sentencing, Bennett caught up with her as she

904
00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:25.519
was being let out of the courtroom. He asked if

905
00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:29.079
she might reconsider testifying against Lilla at her upcoming trial,

906
00:47:29.440 --> 00:47:33.400
hinting that he could improve her situation if she cooperated.

907
00:47:33.719 --> 00:47:37.320
Marsha's response a defeated strug. I don't know, she said,

908
00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:41.039
I'm so confused, and I don't feel very good. Marcia

909
00:47:41.079 --> 00:47:45.119
began her sentence in the downtown Harris County Jail. On paper,

910
00:47:45.400 --> 00:47:47.960
this was for her own safety, but it was also

911
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:50.880
because Bob Bennett wanted easy access to her, and the

912
00:47:50.920 --> 00:47:53.639
county jail was a lot more convenient than heading up

913
00:47:53.679 --> 00:47:56.920
to the state prison. He visited Marcia often, trying to

914
00:47:56.960 --> 00:48:00.880
build a connection, hoping he would convince her to cooperate,

915
00:48:01.360 --> 00:48:04.599
but Marcia wasn't budging. Every time Bennett pushed her, she

916
00:48:04.719 --> 00:48:08.239
shut him down. She believed that testifying against Lilla would

917
00:48:08.280 --> 00:48:11.440
be a death sentence. She knew Lilla had ties to

918
00:48:11.559 --> 00:48:14.480
dangerous people, and Marcia wasn't about to take that risk.

919
00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:17.880
Think about it, she was just twenty five years old

920
00:48:18.119 --> 00:48:21.400
facing a ten year sentence. With good behaviors, she could

921
00:48:21.400 --> 00:48:24.119
be out by age thirty, and if her appeal worked,

922
00:48:24.239 --> 00:48:28.360
maybe even sooner. Cooperating felt like signing her own death warrant.

923
00:48:28.840 --> 00:48:31.760
By mid February, Bennett had been working on Marsha for

924
00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:35.320
four months. Lila's trial was looming, and he decided to

925
00:48:35.360 --> 00:48:39.119
make one last attempt. He visited Marsha in jail, hoping

926
00:48:39.159 --> 00:48:42.360
this time would be different, and it was sort of

927
00:48:42.960 --> 00:48:46.159
For the first time. Marcia didn't immediately shut him down. Instead,

928
00:48:46.280 --> 00:48:50.400
she gave him a strange little smile and said, almost teasingly, well,

929
00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:53.280
who knows what I might do? Yeah, who knows what

930
00:48:53.360 --> 00:48:55.000
I might do if you put me up on the

931
00:48:55.039 --> 00:48:57.559
witness stand and I see that old bitch sitting there

932
00:48:57.559 --> 00:49:01.840
in the courtroom. Bennett jumped in, Marcia, would you testify

933
00:49:01.880 --> 00:49:05.360
against her? She just strugged and said, I told you, Bob,

934
00:49:05.559 --> 00:49:08.239
who knows.

935
00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:09.280
Pretty cryptic of her like on the eve of this

936
00:49:09.400 --> 00:49:12.800
murder trial. She's like, I might testify, might not. Can't

937
00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:15.719
tell you, Bob. Sorry. We haven't talked too much about

938
00:49:15.760 --> 00:49:19.079
Lilla Paulis's background, other than to say her husband, who

939
00:49:19.079 --> 00:49:21.719
had died not long before, John Hill, had been a

940
00:49:21.719 --> 00:49:25.239
bookie with strong connections to the underworld. Lilla was a

941
00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:27.840
gray haired older lady, but she was scary to a

942
00:49:27.840 --> 00:49:31.400
lot of people, including her own daughter. In preparing for

943
00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:35.440
Lilla's trial, prosecutor Bob Bennett interviewed her daughter, Mary Joe,

944
00:49:35.559 --> 00:49:38.760
who told him a chilling tale. At a very young age,

945
00:49:38.840 --> 00:49:41.679
she claimed that her own mother forced her into prostitution,

946
00:49:42.119 --> 00:49:45.920
and this continued all through Mary Joe's teenage years. When

947
00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:48.840
Mary Joe was just eighteen, she fell for Larry Wood,

948
00:49:48.880 --> 00:49:50.880
an older man who made a living as a pimp.

949
00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:54.760
Lilla didn't approve, but Mary Joe didn't care. She was

950
00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:56.840
in love and she saw Larry as a means of

951
00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:00.000
escape from her mom. Lilla, however, wasn't one to say

952
00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:03.280
sit idly by. She went to drastic lengths having marry

953
00:50:03.360 --> 00:50:07.119
Joe committed to a psychiatric institution, accusing her of drug

954
00:50:07.239 --> 00:50:11.519
use and erratic behavior. It didn't work. After just three weeks,

955
00:50:11.519 --> 00:50:14.400
Mary Joe slipped out of the institution and wasted no

956
00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:18.159
time marrying Larry. But their honeymoon phase didn't last long.

957
00:50:18.679 --> 00:50:21.920
Not long after the wedding, their apartment was riddled with gunfire.

958
00:50:22.119 --> 00:50:26.320
Fifty seven bullets tore through the walls and the windows. Thankfully,

959
00:50:26.360 --> 00:50:28.960
neither of them was at home at the time. Mary

960
00:50:29.079 --> 00:50:32.239
Joe was convinced that this was Lilla's doing. It was

961
00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:34.440
enough to make the newly weds pack up and leave,

962
00:50:34.599 --> 00:50:37.679
disappearing to start over in a new state, keeping their

963
00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:41.440
location a secret from Lilla. But Lilla wasn't done. She

964
00:50:41.519 --> 00:50:44.880
tried to block Mary Joe from claiming a substantial inheritance

965
00:50:44.920 --> 00:50:48.840
from her paternal grandmother. Mary Joe's grandmother had left behind

966
00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:52.079
an a state worth over four million dollars. While she

967
00:50:52.199 --> 00:50:55.599
excluded Mary Joe's father, claud from the will, she didn't

968
00:50:55.599 --> 00:50:58.280
approve of his work as a bookie. She did leave

969
00:50:58.320 --> 00:51:01.119
a quarter of the estate over ami million dollars to

970
00:51:01.239 --> 00:51:06.000
Claude's legitimate issue and guess who that was, Mary Joe,

971
00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:09.679
his only child. When Mary Joe filed for the inheritance,

972
00:51:09.800 --> 00:51:13.280
Lilla stepped in to block it. Her reasoning. She went

973
00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:16.719
to court and testified that Mary Joe wasn't legitimate, that

974
00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:20.440
she had conceived Mary Joe before she married Claude. The

975
00:51:20.519 --> 00:51:23.719
judge sided with Lilla, effectively cutting Mary Joe off from

976
00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:27.159
her inheritance. So Mary Joe's own mother first of all

977
00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:31.559
forces her daughter into prostitution at a really, really young age,

978
00:51:32.079 --> 00:51:35.039
and then she stops her from inheriting money basically on

979
00:51:35.079 --> 00:51:38.679
a technicality. And the kicker is like, like, Lilla didn't

980
00:51:38.719 --> 00:51:41.239
have anything to gain by this, She wasn't going to

981
00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:44.119
get the money. She just did it out of spite.

982
00:51:43.880 --> 00:51:46.519
Essentially, so she probably didn't get a lot of Mother's

983
00:51:46.599 --> 00:51:47.119
Day cards.

984
00:51:47.400 --> 00:51:50.960
No, I'm guessing that Mary Joe told Bob Bennett about

985
00:51:50.960 --> 00:51:54.039
when she testified in that court case about the inheritance.

986
00:51:54.119 --> 00:51:56.840
She said quote, I saw her sitting out there patting

987
00:51:56.920 --> 00:51:59.440
her handbag. I knew she had her gun in it.

988
00:51:59.760 --> 00:52:04.159
Blood ran cold with every word I spoke. Lilla's trial

989
00:52:04.280 --> 00:52:07.519
kicked off in February nineteen seventy five. The first day

990
00:52:07.559 --> 00:52:10.920
of testimony was powerful. Fourteen year old Robert Hill took

991
00:52:10.960 --> 00:52:13.280
the stand and recounted the events of the day his

992
00:52:13.400 --> 00:52:14.760
father was shot and killed.

993
00:52:15.000 --> 00:52:16.800
NICKA is kind of a little hero, isn't he?

994
00:52:16.639 --> 00:52:21.239
He really is? Despite his age, Robert was an exceptional witness, calm,

995
00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:26.239
composed and convincing. Other witnesses followed. Connie testified along with

996
00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:32.000
the coroner, doctor Jaikimchik to Kimchick, and doctor Mitchell, the

997
00:52:32.039 --> 00:52:35.400
original owner of the gun stolen by Marcia. Together they

998
00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:38.159
painted a clear picture of how John Hill had been murdered,

999
00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:41.239
but there was one glaring issue. None of them could

1000
00:52:41.239 --> 00:52:45.480
directly tie Lilla Paulus to the crime. Meanwhile, Bob Bennett

1001
00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:48.480
was still holding out hope that Marcia McKittrick would come through.

1002
00:52:48.960 --> 00:52:51.440
She hadn't made her decision yet and the trial was

1003
00:52:51.519 --> 00:52:54.920
moving forward without her testimony. Then, near the end of

1004
00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:57.920
the first day, a note was passed to Bennett. Marcia

1005
00:52:57.960 --> 00:53:00.880
had sent word from the jail downstairs she wanted to

1006
00:53:00.920 --> 00:53:04.320
see him pronto. As soon as court adjourned for the day.

1007
00:53:04.400 --> 00:53:07.880
Bennett rushed downstairs. There Marcia told him that she had

1008
00:53:07.880 --> 00:53:10.760
made up her mind. She had seen young Robert Hill

1009
00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:13.800
waiting to testify, and it had broken her heart. She

1010
00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:17.800
decided she would take the stand against Lilla. Now, Marcia

1011
00:53:17.880 --> 00:53:21.320
wasn't exactly the most upstanding citizen. Her background was far

1012
00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:24.119
from spotless, but during her two days on the stand,

1013
00:53:24.199 --> 00:53:28.480
she came across as honest and believable. She talked openly

1014
00:53:28.519 --> 00:53:31.760
about her relationship with Bobby Van Derver, her time staying

1015
00:53:31.800 --> 00:53:35.039
at Lilla's house whenever she was in Houston, and the

1016
00:53:35.159 --> 00:53:38.599
chilling details of the contract that Lilla had been shopping around.

1017
00:53:39.119 --> 00:53:42.400
Marcia described seeing Ash hand money to Lilla and watching

1018
00:53:42.440 --> 00:53:45.679
Lilla pay Bobby a cut of that money. Her testimony

1019
00:53:45.719 --> 00:53:49.159
brought the jury closer to understanding how deep Lilla's involvement

1020
00:53:49.280 --> 00:53:52.800
really went. Although Ash Robinson wasn't the one on trial,

1021
00:53:52.840 --> 00:53:55.800
the prosecution worked hard to connect the dots between him

1022
00:53:55.840 --> 00:53:58.519
and Lilla. They wanted to show that she wasn't just

1023
00:53:58.559 --> 00:54:02.079
a passive player. She was the middlewoman in a calculated

1024
00:54:02.159 --> 00:54:05.440
murder for higher scheme. One piece of evidence stood out.

1025
00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:09.159
A telephone company representative testified that ashe had installed a

1026
00:54:09.199 --> 00:54:12.239
new private phone line right around the time of John

1027
00:54:12.280 --> 00:54:15.320
Hill's death, and the number for that private line it

1028
00:54:15.400 --> 00:54:18.320
was scribbled on a slip of paper found in Lilla's purse.

1029
00:54:18.920 --> 00:54:22.360
Then came a surprise twist. Lilla decided to testify in

1030
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:25.079
her own defense. Her lawyers must have thought that she

1031
00:54:25.119 --> 00:54:28.239
would come across as a sweet, gray haired grandmother, the

1032
00:54:28.360 --> 00:54:30.360
kind who had been a girl scout mom and sent

1033
00:54:30.360 --> 00:54:33.880
her daughter to Catholic school. It started off smoothly enough.

1034
00:54:34.039 --> 00:54:37.800
Her lawyers asked if she knew ash Robinson. Lilla downplayed it,

1035
00:54:37.880 --> 00:54:40.199
claiming that she had heard of him and maybe crossed

1036
00:54:40.239 --> 00:54:43.000
paths with him a couple of times. But she insisted

1037
00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:46.039
that she wasn't an acquaintance, and she added a bold

1038
00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:50.280
claim ashe had absolutely never been in her home. Then

1039
00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:52.760
its eyebrows went up at that one. If he could

1040
00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:55.480
find someone to prove otherwise, it would expose her as

1041
00:54:55.519 --> 00:54:58.559
a liar, and that could be a game changer. When

1042
00:54:58.599 --> 00:55:01.159
it came to Marcia, li admitted that she knew her,

1043
00:55:01.239 --> 00:55:03.159
but claimed that she had just been trying to help

1044
00:55:03.199 --> 00:55:05.320
her out, offering her a place to stay when she

1045
00:55:05.440 --> 00:55:07.840
needed it. Then, in a moment that might have been

1046
00:55:07.840 --> 00:55:11.039
meant to make her look charitable, Lilla couldn't help herself.

1047
00:55:11.239 --> 00:55:13.960
She said, quote even though you could gather from her

1048
00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:16.599
conversation that her life was just a little bit different

1049
00:55:16.599 --> 00:55:20.159
from mine. End quote. That little comment gave Bennett an

1050
00:55:20.199 --> 00:55:23.679
opening on cross examination. He ran with it, using it

1051
00:55:23.719 --> 00:55:27.079
to shine a spotlight on Lilla's own less than clean history.

1052
00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:29.880
He wanted the jury to see that Lilla and Marcia

1053
00:55:29.960 --> 00:55:33.519
weren't so different after all. Bennett landed a few solid

1054
00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:37.199
blows during cross but overall, Lilla's lawyer felt pretty good

1055
00:55:37.199 --> 00:55:40.039
when she stepped down from the stand. When it came

1056
00:55:40.079 --> 00:55:43.519
time for rebuttal witnesses, Bob Bennett didn't waste the opportunity

1057
00:55:43.559 --> 00:55:45.960
to chip away at the wholesome image that Lilla had

1058
00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:48.519
tried to sell to the jury. First, he called a

1059
00:55:48.599 --> 00:55:52.159
vice cop to the stand. The officer testified about Lilla's

1060
00:55:52.159 --> 00:55:56.159
connections to a seed er underworld, revealing her past as

1061
00:55:56.159 --> 00:56:01.400
a sometimes madam, and her association with thieves, prostitutes, gamblers,

1062
00:56:01.400 --> 00:56:06.000
and pimps. Then came Joan Jaworski Warrel, Joan Hill's childhood

1063
00:56:06.039 --> 00:56:10.480
best friend. Fun fact, Joan was the daughter of Leon Jaworski,

1064
00:56:10.679 --> 00:56:14.760
the famed Watergate prosecutor. That little detail probably gave her

1065
00:56:14.760 --> 00:56:18.239
testimony some extra weight. Name recognition has a way of

1066
00:56:18.280 --> 00:56:21.920
doing that. She testified that she knew both Ash Robinson

1067
00:56:21.960 --> 00:56:25.599
and Lilla and had seen them together three times. But

1068
00:56:25.679 --> 00:56:28.599
the real drama came when Bennett called Lilla's own daughter,

1069
00:56:28.679 --> 00:56:32.000
Mary Joe, to testify. Mary Joe was terrified of her

1070
00:56:32.000 --> 00:56:35.400
mother and needed serious convincing to even show up in court.

1071
00:56:35.920 --> 00:56:38.679
Part of the deal, armed guards would escort her the

1072
00:56:38.840 --> 00:56:41.840
entire time she was in town. When Mary Joe took

1073
00:56:41.880 --> 00:56:44.679
the stand, Bennett started with a simple question, where do

1074
00:56:44.719 --> 00:56:48.039
you live? Her answer was just as simple and cautious

1075
00:56:48.519 --> 00:56:52.400
another state. She said she wasn't about to reveal her location,

1076
00:56:52.920 --> 00:56:55.199
and that was part of the agreement for her testimony.

1077
00:56:55.760 --> 00:56:59.320
Mary Joe then described her connection to Ash Robinson. She

1078
00:56:59.400 --> 00:57:01.800
said that she had first met him at her mother's house,

1079
00:57:01.920 --> 00:57:06.400
directly contradicting Lilla's earlier testimony. She also shared that she

1080
00:57:06.480 --> 00:57:09.519
and her mother had visited Joan Hill's house multiple times

1081
00:57:09.719 --> 00:57:12.360
and that Ash had been there too. But the most

1082
00:57:12.400 --> 00:57:15.199
jaw dropping part of Mary Joe's testimony came when she

1083
00:57:15.280 --> 00:57:18.920
recalled a moment around Christmas of nineteen seventy. She said

1084
00:57:18.920 --> 00:57:21.159
that she was at her mother's house when she overheard

1085
00:57:21.199 --> 00:57:25.159
Lilla say Diane's Setagas called and said, Ash Robinson is

1086
00:57:25.199 --> 00:57:28.719
looking for somebody to kill John Hill. That line alone

1087
00:57:28.880 --> 00:57:33.719
was explosive. Unfortunately, there was one limitation to Mary Joe's testimony.

1088
00:57:34.159 --> 00:57:37.360
The judge ruled that she could only impeach specific parts

1089
00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:41.079
of Lilla's earlier testimony. That meant she couldn't delve into

1090
00:57:41.119 --> 00:57:44.159
Lilla's shady past or the chilling fact that her own

1091
00:57:44.199 --> 00:57:48.119
mother had once forced her into prostitution. Lila's lawyer had

1092
00:57:48.119 --> 00:57:51.440
a surprise of his own. He called Diane Setagas to

1093
00:57:51.519 --> 00:57:53.719
the stand. Now, it's been a while since we talked

1094
00:57:53.719 --> 00:57:56.480
about her, but you might remember Diane. She was Joan

1095
00:57:56.599 --> 00:57:59.639
Hill's friend, the one staying at the mansion with her

1096
00:57:59.639 --> 00:58:03.559
companion Eunice when Joan fell ill. Diane's name had come

1097
00:58:03.639 --> 00:58:07.000
up a few times through the trial. Joan Juworski warrel

1098
00:58:07.199 --> 00:58:10.360
As I just mentioned testified about seeing Diane with both

1099
00:58:10.440 --> 00:58:14.239
Lilla and Ash Robinson and Mary Joe, Lilla's daughter, claimed

1100
00:58:14.239 --> 00:58:17.400
that it was Diane's name Lilla mentioned when talking about

1101
00:58:17.480 --> 00:58:20.360
how she learned of Ash's shopping around for a hit man.

1102
00:58:21.039 --> 00:58:23.679
When Diane took the stand, she flat out denied everything.

1103
00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:26.519
She insisted she had never been with Lilla and Ash

1104
00:58:26.559 --> 00:58:28.840
at the same time and was certain that the two

1105
00:58:28.880 --> 00:58:31.599
didn't even know each other. And as for ashe looking

1106
00:58:31.599 --> 00:58:34.480
to have someone kill John Hill, no way, she said.

1107
00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:37.159
At this point, Lilla's lawyer should have called it a

1108
00:58:37.239 --> 00:58:40.039
day and moved on, but he decided to press just

1109
00:58:40.079 --> 00:58:43.639
a little further, and that decision really spelled disaster for

1110
00:58:43.679 --> 00:58:46.760
his client. He asked, Diane, when was the last time

1111
00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:50.920
you saw Mary Joe? Would Diane didn't hesitate her answer,

1112
00:58:51.519 --> 00:58:56.159
just before she decided to take up the practice of prostitution. Bennett,

1113
00:58:56.239 --> 00:58:59.599
watching from his seat, perked up immediately. He almost felt

1114
00:58:59.599 --> 00:59:03.639
bad for opposing counsel. That one careless question had just

1115
00:59:03.719 --> 00:59:06.519
opened the gates of hell for Lilla. The court took

1116
00:59:06.519 --> 00:59:09.280
a break after Diane's testimony, and Bennett ran to the

1117
00:59:09.280 --> 00:59:11.639
phone and called the hotel where Mary Joe and her

1118
00:59:11.760 --> 00:59:14.400
husband had been staying. He was worried that he might

1119
00:59:14.440 --> 00:59:16.559
be too late, but he caught her just in time.

1120
00:59:16.960 --> 00:59:20.320
He said, we need you back. It's important. Mary Joe said,

1121
00:59:20.599 --> 00:59:23.000
I've already been through hell once. I suppose the second

1122
00:59:23.039 --> 00:59:26.599
time around can't be so bad. Now that Diane's setagast

1123
00:59:26.639 --> 00:59:28.719
had brought up the fact that Mary Joe had been

1124
00:59:28.760 --> 00:59:31.880
a prostitute, the judge allowed her to tell the jury

1125
00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:34.760
her whole story, how her mom had her committed to

1126
00:59:34.760 --> 00:59:37.320
a psychiatric hospital and once threatened her with a gun

1127
00:59:37.360 --> 00:59:40.079
while she was there, and the most terrific part, how

1128
00:59:40.119 --> 00:59:42.679
her mom had taken money from men and allowed them

1129
00:59:42.719 --> 00:59:45.519
to molest her daughter. And this is so disgusting to

1130
00:59:45.559 --> 00:59:50.039
even say. Starting at the age of four, Audible gasps

1131
00:59:50.159 --> 00:59:53.360
rippled through the courtroom when Mary Joe said that. Mary

1132
00:59:53.400 --> 00:59:56.239
continued talking about how her mom continued to force her

1133
00:59:56.239 --> 01:00:00.000
into prostitution until she finally escaped at age eighteen after

1134
01:00:00.159 --> 01:00:04.760
meeting Larry Wood. After her testimony, Mary Joe sobbed uncontrollably

1135
01:00:04.800 --> 01:00:08.559
in Bennett's office for fifteen minutes. After she composed herself,

1136
01:00:08.599 --> 01:00:11.159
she said to him, I'm sorry. Is there a word

1137
01:00:11.199 --> 01:00:13.360
for when you've just exercised your own mother?

1138
01:00:14.119 --> 01:00:16.280
That is truly, truly horrible?

1139
01:00:16.480 --> 01:00:18.559
It's evil. Yeah, I don't. I can't think of anything

1140
01:00:18.679 --> 01:00:22.480
much more evil than that. After nearly five hours of deliberation,

1141
01:00:22.800 --> 01:00:26.440
the jury found Lilla Paulis guilty of being an accomplice

1142
01:00:26.480 --> 01:00:29.719
to murder. She was sentenced to thirty five years in

1143
01:00:29.800 --> 01:00:33.320
the state penitentiary. It's been a long road, I know.

1144
01:00:34.159 --> 01:00:37.880
And Joan Robinson Hill is dead, John Hill is dead,

1145
01:00:38.119 --> 01:00:40.920
Bobby Van Derver is dead. The only person convicted is

1146
01:00:41.000 --> 01:00:43.719
Lilla Paulis. Let's wrap this up by just talking about

1147
01:00:43.760 --> 01:00:44.400
what happened to.

1148
01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:46.519
Let to know what happened to Ash Robinson.

1149
01:00:46.800 --> 01:00:49.800
So Lilla Paulis, first of all, did indeed die in prison,

1150
01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:52.519
but she at least got to serve eleven years before

1151
01:00:52.519 --> 01:00:55.039
she did. She died in nineteen eighty six at the

1152
01:00:55.079 --> 01:00:58.719
age of sixty six. Marcia McKittrick served five years in

1153
01:00:58.760 --> 01:01:01.920
prison before being parole in nineteen seventy eight. I don't

1154
01:01:01.960 --> 01:01:03.920
know a lot about her life after that, other than

1155
01:01:04.039 --> 01:01:07.239
finding one report of her arrest on charges of public

1156
01:01:07.280 --> 01:01:10.840
intoxication in nineteen eighty six. She died in twenty ten

1157
01:01:10.920 --> 01:01:14.639
at the age of sixty Following her husband's death, Connie

1158
01:01:14.719 --> 01:01:17.800
Hill petitioned the court for custody of Robert. She was

1159
01:01:17.880 --> 01:01:20.440
joined in the petition by John's mother and sister, and

1160
01:01:20.559 --> 01:01:24.599
she was awarded custody. Surprisingly, Connie and Robert continued to

1161
01:01:24.639 --> 01:01:27.800
live at the mansion on Kirby Drive for several more years.

1162
01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:31.559
In nineteen seventy seven, Robert, Kannie, and Meyra brought a

1163
01:01:31.639 --> 01:01:35.119
seven point six million dollar wrongful death lawsuit against Ash,

1164
01:01:35.519 --> 01:01:38.960
Lila and Marcia, alleging that the three conspired to kill

1165
01:01:39.079 --> 01:01:43.000
John Hill. Both Marsha and Ashe testified during the civil trial.

1166
01:01:43.480 --> 01:01:46.400
During his testimony, Ash addressed his grandson, who was in

1167
01:01:46.440 --> 01:01:49.760
the courtroom, saying, quote, Boot, I had no more to

1168
01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:52.800
do with your father's death than you did. Death. Murder

1169
01:01:52.840 --> 01:01:55.400
does not solve any problem on the face of the earth.

1170
01:01:55.840 --> 01:01:59.039
After deliberating for fifteen hours, a jury did not find

1171
01:01:59.159 --> 01:02:02.719
enough evidence of a conspiracy linking Ash to Hill's death,

1172
01:02:03.280 --> 01:02:07.159
so they lost the suit. Surprisingly, Robert eventually reconciled with

1173
01:02:07.239 --> 01:02:09.920
his grandparents Ash and Rhea and went to live in

1174
01:02:09.960 --> 01:02:13.559
Pensacola near them. He finally sold the mansion on Kirby

1175
01:02:13.639 --> 01:02:17.000
Drive in nineteen eighty one, and Connie remarried around that

1176
01:02:17.039 --> 01:02:20.599
same time. Ash Robinson was never brought to justice for

1177
01:02:20.760 --> 01:02:24.280
ordering the hit on doctor John Hill. In nineteen seventy nine,

1178
01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:27.920
he and Rhea moved from Houston to Pensacola, Florida. Ash

1179
01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:31.239
died there in February nineteen eighty five, and Rhea died

1180
01:02:31.239 --> 01:02:34.559
two years later in nineteen eighty seven. Ash maintained his

1181
01:02:34.599 --> 01:02:37.840
innocence to the end. The mansion is still there, complete

1182
01:02:37.840 --> 01:02:41.559
with John's spectacular music room maintained just as it was

1183
01:02:41.599 --> 01:02:43.960
the time of his death. We'll post pictures that I

1184
01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:45.920
know you mentioned you looked it up on Zillo and.

1185
01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:48.039
Yeah, post the link in our show notes.

1186
01:02:48.840 --> 01:02:52.599
Connie married a Texas oil man named Jim Calloway. Calloway

1187
01:02:52.639 --> 01:02:55.679
died in twenty eighteen. Last I heard, Connie was still

1188
01:02:55.719 --> 01:02:59.480
alive and living in Colorado. After Joan and John died,

1189
01:03:00.039 --> 01:03:03.880
US prize show horse beloved Belinda also met a tragic end.

1190
01:03:04.360 --> 01:03:07.199
During a thunderstorm one night, she bolted out of her barn,

1191
01:03:07.440 --> 01:03:10.159
ran into a field, reared up on her hind legs,

1192
01:03:10.159 --> 01:03:12.519
and was struck down by a bolt of lightning. We've

1193
01:03:12.519 --> 01:03:15.559
talked about already, but Thomas Thompson's nineteen seventy six book

1194
01:03:15.559 --> 01:03:18.840
Blood and Money became a bestseller and a true crime classic.

1195
01:03:19.360 --> 01:03:21.519
He became interested in the story while he was in

1196
01:03:21.599 --> 01:03:25.159
Houston shadowing doctors for research on a book called Hearts,

1197
01:03:25.599 --> 01:03:29.719
about the world of cardiac surgery. An Kirth sued Thompson

1198
01:03:29.800 --> 01:03:32.280
for three million dollars over the way he depicted her

1199
01:03:32.280 --> 01:03:35.119
in the book. She was especially offended by the description

1200
01:03:35.199 --> 01:03:38.639
of her as a quote provocatively dressed, heavily made up

1201
01:03:38.679 --> 01:03:42.239
woman unquote. Her suit was dismissed by a jury. In

1202
01:03:42.320 --> 01:03:46.000
nineteen eighty one, Thompson was also sued by John Ramer,

1203
01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:48.760
the police officer who shot and killed Bobby van Derver.

1204
01:03:49.320 --> 01:03:52.639
Raymer sued because Thompson described his round face as looking

1205
01:03:52.719 --> 01:03:54.119
like a hard boiled egg.

1206
01:03:55.119 --> 01:03:57.239
Wow, those people are a little sensitive.

1207
01:03:58.440 --> 01:04:02.320
Ash Robinson also sued Thompson because, well, of course he did.

1208
01:04:02.599 --> 01:04:05.440
As far as I know, none of those lawsuits were successful.

1209
01:04:05.960 --> 01:04:09.079
Thompson sadly died in nineteen eighty two at age forty

1210
01:04:09.159 --> 01:04:12.280
nine of liver disease, apparently contracted while he was in

1211
01:04:12.320 --> 01:04:16.480
Asia researching the story of serial killer Charles Sobrage for

1212
01:04:16.920 --> 01:04:18.119
his book Serpentine.

1213
01:04:18.480 --> 01:04:20.840
Whatever our listeners just requested that story?

1214
01:04:20.960 --> 01:04:24.840
Oh really interesting. Ann Kirth published her own account of

1215
01:04:24.880 --> 01:04:28.559
the case called prescription Murder. In the book, she repeated

1216
01:04:28.599 --> 01:04:30.840
her claims that John had tried to kill her and

1217
01:04:30.880 --> 01:04:35.039
that he poisoned Joan with bacteria laced pastries. She also

1218
01:04:35.079 --> 01:04:38.400
suggests that John may not have actually been killed, but

1219
01:04:38.519 --> 01:04:42.320
instead faked his own death and moved to Mexico, and

1220
01:04:42.599 --> 01:04:45.400
Kirth lived in Austin with her three sons until her

1221
01:04:45.440 --> 01:04:49.039
death in nineteen ninety at age fifty nine. Anne was

1222
01:04:49.119 --> 01:04:51.239
not the only one to believe that John faked his

1223
01:04:51.280 --> 01:04:54.639
own death. Conspiracy theories point to the fact that the

1224
01:04:54.679 --> 01:04:57.880
face of the victim was battered and there were allegedly

1225
01:04:57.960 --> 01:05:01.840
contradictions in the autopsy reports about John's eye color, height,

1226
01:05:02.079 --> 01:05:06.320
and other physical characteristics. Plus he had a motive to disappear,

1227
01:05:06.760 --> 01:05:08.800
seeing as he was set to go on trial again

1228
01:05:08.840 --> 01:05:12.039
in six weeks and he was heavily in debt. There

1229
01:05:12.079 --> 01:05:15.639
have been unconfirmed reports of John Hill's sightings in Mexico.

1230
01:05:16.119 --> 01:05:17.039
What do you think of that?

1231
01:05:17.440 --> 01:05:18.360
I think it's both.

1232
01:05:18.639 --> 01:05:19.840
It sounds pretty far betched.

1233
01:05:19.880 --> 01:05:22.760
Yeah, sounds very far fetched. In nineteen eighty one, a

1234
01:05:22.840 --> 01:05:26.039
made for TV movie called Murder in Texas was produced

1235
01:05:26.079 --> 01:05:29.239
based on the case. The movie starred Farah Fawcett as

1236
01:05:29.320 --> 01:05:32.880
Joan Robinson Hill, Sam Elliott as doctor John Hill. Love

1237
01:05:32.960 --> 01:05:35.800
Sam Elliott, he was so young in this too, Catherine

1238
01:05:35.880 --> 01:05:40.239
Ross as Anne Kirth, and Andy Griffith as Ash Robinson.

1239
01:05:41.360 --> 01:05:44.480
The movie perpetuates the theory that Hill may have faked

1240
01:05:44.480 --> 01:05:47.840
his death. Here's a little montage of clips from the film.

1241
01:05:48.760 --> 01:05:56.559
John Hill and a people are important to the doctor

1242
01:05:56.679 --> 01:05:58.719
as long as he can use him to get what

1243
01:05:58.800 --> 01:06:01.480
he wants, and Honnie what he wants.

1244
01:06:01.519 --> 01:06:07.320
He guess I've been waiting.

1245
01:06:07.079 --> 01:06:07.320
For it.

1246
01:06:09.199 --> 01:06:23.679
Week you practice tomorrow? Am I boring you? I like

1247
01:06:23.800 --> 01:06:24.440
being kissed?

1248
01:06:24.840 --> 01:06:29.159
But oh I'm interrupting. I'm always interrupting.

1249
01:06:29.639 --> 01:06:31.719
Maybe you should call your office and make an appointment.

1250
01:06:33.440 --> 01:06:34.920
Got your way to the horse show.

1251
01:06:35.079 --> 01:06:39.000
I had to talk to you everything. What the hell

1252
01:06:39.039 --> 01:06:40.679
am I doing? Why am I going off to a

1253
01:06:40.679 --> 01:06:42.400
horse show? When things are the way they are between

1254
01:06:42.480 --> 01:06:46.760
John and me. I'm gonna make you smile, okay, I'm

1255
01:06:46.760 --> 01:06:48.199
gonna cut down on the horse shows.

1256
01:06:49.639 --> 01:06:51.400
I'm gonna stop smoking cigarettes.

1257
01:06:52.840 --> 01:06:54.039
I'm gonna learn a lot.

1258
01:06:53.880 --> 01:06:55.280
More about your music.

1259
01:06:56.480 --> 01:06:59.800
What do I do? You just be here? Well, I

1260
01:06:59.880 --> 01:07:01.400
know what we're doing this weekend.

1261
01:07:02.199 --> 01:07:04.360
It's a long movie. It's like three and a half hours.

1262
01:07:05.039 --> 01:07:08.679
The actual cause of Joan Robinson Hill's death remains a mystery.

1263
01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:12.239
In nineteen eighty, a CBS true crime show had doctors

1264
01:07:12.280 --> 01:07:15.960
re examined the medical evidence. They speculated that Joan may

1265
01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:19.599
have died as a result of toxic shock syndrome. Toxic

1266
01:07:19.639 --> 01:07:22.920
shock syndrome is a rare but life threatening bacterial infection

1267
01:07:23.320 --> 01:07:26.360
that causes a rapid onset of fever, rash, and low

1268
01:07:26.400 --> 01:07:29.440
blood pressure. It can affect anyone, but is most often

1269
01:07:29.480 --> 01:07:33.559
associated with tampon use. Toxic shock syndrome was first given

1270
01:07:33.559 --> 01:07:36.440
a name in nineteen seventy eight, but cases had likely

1271
01:07:36.480 --> 01:07:40.440
been occurring for many years before that. Houston medical examiner

1272
01:07:40.519 --> 01:07:48.719
Joseph J. Chimchick to Kimchick. Jackimchick disagreed with the conclusion,

1273
01:07:49.239 --> 01:07:52.360
saying that while it matched some of Joan's symptoms, it

1274
01:07:52.400 --> 01:07:57.360
didn't match with others. Deep breath. That is the end

1275
01:07:57.760 --> 01:08:02.159
of the story. Wow, to have two questions for you, Okay,

1276
01:08:02.360 --> 01:08:04.639
do you think that Ash was behind the plot to

1277
01:08:04.719 --> 01:08:05.960
kill John? Well?

1278
01:08:06.079 --> 01:08:09.039
Is John even dead? He just told me he might

1279
01:08:09.079 --> 01:08:11.639
not be dead, So that's kind of confused.

1280
01:08:11.679 --> 01:08:15.239
Pretty sure John was killed? That that seems so far

1281
01:08:15.280 --> 01:08:17.159
fetched to me, Like who like he found some other

1282
01:08:17.239 --> 01:08:20.439
guy to stand in for him and get shot and killed.

1283
01:08:20.479 --> 01:08:23.520
Like that doesn't doesn't make any sense. Good point back

1284
01:08:23.560 --> 01:08:26.039
to the original question, do you think that Ash was

1285
01:08:26.079 --> 01:08:28.000
the one behind John's murder?

1286
01:08:28.560 --> 01:08:31.359
This might not be the right answer, not that there's

1287
01:08:31.359 --> 01:08:33.880
a right answer, but I have an affection for like

1288
01:08:33.920 --> 01:08:38.479
a really good dad, and I feel like Ash probably controlling,

1289
01:08:38.520 --> 01:08:40.640
but he was a really good dad, So I have

1290
01:08:40.720 --> 01:08:43.399
some maybe in parts one in too, like some affection

1291
01:08:43.520 --> 01:08:45.640
for him. I liked that he was always there for

1292
01:08:45.760 --> 01:08:48.159
his daughter and he seemed to like he would do

1293
01:08:48.199 --> 01:08:50.600
anything to make her happy, right, But yeah, I do

1294
01:08:50.760 --> 01:08:52.960
kind of think that he was behind us.

1295
01:08:52.960 --> 01:08:55.079
I don't know who else would have been behind it, really.

1296
01:08:55.159 --> 01:08:57.239
I mean, Lila wouldn't have done it on her own.

1297
01:08:57.600 --> 01:08:59.119
I didn't talk about it in the case, but there

1298
01:08:59.159 --> 01:09:02.600
was a connection between between Lilla and Joan. Lilla took

1299
01:09:02.640 --> 01:09:05.199
her daughter Mary Joe when she was young, to the

1300
01:09:05.239 --> 01:09:08.680
horse ranch that Joan had bought, and she had thought

1301
01:09:08.680 --> 01:09:10.640
that Joan was nice to her daughter, and so she

1302
01:09:10.760 --> 01:09:13.119
had like a fondness for Joan. But I don't think

1303
01:09:13.159 --> 01:09:15.000
that would be enough for Lilla to act on her

1304
01:09:15.039 --> 01:09:18.399
own right to hire someone to kill John. So yeah,

1305
01:09:18.399 --> 01:09:19.720
I think it had to have been ash.

1306
01:09:19.760 --> 01:09:22.399
But I agree with you Lilla took her daughter to

1307
01:09:22.520 --> 01:09:24.840
a horse camp between she.

1308
01:09:24.920 --> 01:09:27.640
I mean, she was a girl scout mom. She did

1309
01:09:27.840 --> 01:09:30.520
send her to like Catholic school, so she she did

1310
01:09:30.520 --> 01:09:32.600
some things that looked like she was a nice mom

1311
01:09:32.640 --> 01:09:35.840
on the surface, but obviously she was a monster. Ow that.

1312
01:09:36.600 --> 01:09:38.199
My other question for you is do you have any

1313
01:09:38.199 --> 01:09:42.239
sympathy for Bobby or Marcia? Like Bobby pulled the trigger,

1314
01:09:42.319 --> 01:09:45.479
there's no doubt about that he killed John. Marcia got

1315
01:09:45.520 --> 01:09:47.359
the gun for him. She was the one who connected

1316
01:09:47.439 --> 01:09:50.880
him to the contract, she drove him to the mansion.

1317
01:09:51.359 --> 01:09:55.000
But I have like a little sympathy for both of them. No, No,

1318
01:09:55.199 --> 01:09:55.600
not at all.

1319
01:09:55.640 --> 01:09:57.720
Okay, may maybe at Marcia because she was so young

1320
01:09:57.960 --> 01:10:01.000
and she'd had a hard life, but wh you don't

1321
01:10:01.039 --> 01:10:04.760
shoot an innocent man. You just know it's hard to

1322
01:10:04.800 --> 01:10:06.880
have sympathy for someone who took someone else's life.

1323
01:10:06.920 --> 01:10:09.359
Okay, that's a very good point. Fair enough.

1324
01:10:09.680 --> 01:10:11.960
What happened to Robert I wish I knew.

1325
01:10:12.079 --> 01:10:14.680
I couldn't really find any information about him. I want

1326
01:10:14.720 --> 01:10:17.600
to say I saw somewhere that he became a lawyer,

1327
01:10:17.720 --> 01:10:21.239
but I wasn't able to verify that, and he had

1328
01:10:21.279 --> 01:10:23.680
such a common name, Robert Hill, that yeah, trying to

1329
01:10:23.720 --> 01:10:26.279
find him on the internet is next to impossible. So

1330
01:10:26.479 --> 01:10:29.760
unfortunately I didn't have any more information about him.

1331
01:10:29.840 --> 01:10:32.479
Did ashe leave his fortune to Robert? Do you know?

1332
01:10:33.159 --> 01:10:35.319
I don't know, but I suspect that he did, because

1333
01:10:35.880 --> 01:10:39.279
Robert would have been Ash and Rhea's only heir, and

1334
01:10:40.000 --> 01:10:44.159
Robert did reconcile with them after his dad's death a

1335
01:10:44.199 --> 01:10:46.119
few years afterwards, so he probably did.

1336
01:10:46.359 --> 01:10:48.600
Yeah. I just want to let the listeners know that

1337
01:10:48.680 --> 01:10:51.880
we had a little squabble during the episode on how

1338
01:10:51.920 --> 01:10:56.159
to pronounce Lilah or Lilla's name. Clear you insisted that

1339
01:10:56.239 --> 01:10:59.119
it was Lilla and it is spelled l I l La.

1340
01:10:59.800 --> 01:11:02.279
I never heard that name, so I was like, Oh,

1341
01:11:02.319 --> 01:11:05.880
it's Lilah. So if any listeners were like, oh, what's

1342
01:11:06.000 --> 01:11:08.359
Lilla like it was, of course it was Lilah.

1343
01:11:08.399 --> 01:11:10.039
I don't know why any listeners would, but.

1344
01:11:10.039 --> 01:11:13.000
You apparently are the authority on how to pronounce every

1345
01:11:13.079 --> 01:11:17.680
name and the whole entire world exceptor except for doctor Jakim.

1346
01:11:17.800 --> 01:11:18.000
Check.

1347
01:11:18.119 --> 01:11:21.359
Yes, you brought in that pronunciation, and I appreciate that.

1348
01:11:22.439 --> 01:11:24.720
But I can only imagine l I l l A

1349
01:11:24.720 --> 01:11:25.159
is Lila.

1350
01:11:25.840 --> 01:11:28.520
It might be, but you know, people spell names differently

1351
01:11:28.520 --> 01:11:30.479
all the time. I've just never heard that name before.

1352
01:11:30.640 --> 01:11:32.800
I know, maybe maybe I'm wrong.

1353
01:11:32.840 --> 01:11:36.520
Maybe maybe is ever wrong.

1354
01:11:37.680 --> 01:11:40.439
One last thing, Thank you again to Elizabeth for the

1355
01:11:40.479 --> 01:11:43.640
case recommendation. It was really really great case. I'd never

1356
01:11:43.680 --> 01:11:45.600
heard of it, which is shocking.

1357
01:11:45.159 --> 01:11:46.680
But probably not shocking.

1358
01:11:47.159 --> 01:11:48.560
I think it's pretty shocking because it's a.

1359
01:11:48.520 --> 01:11:51.680
Well surprise, how few cases you and I have actually

1360
01:11:51.760 --> 01:11:52.079
heard of?

1361
01:11:52.239 --> 01:11:52.479
It was.

1362
01:11:52.680 --> 01:11:54.920
I mean, it was made into a movie with Farah Faucet,

1363
01:11:55.039 --> 01:11:57.319
So how would I've not heard of that before? But

1364
01:11:57.479 --> 01:11:59.840
thanks Elizabeth, we appreciate the recommendation.

1365
01:12:00.479 --> 01:12:01.600
Is the movie available.

1366
01:12:01.960 --> 01:12:03.439
It is on YouTube for free.

1367
01:12:03.600 --> 01:12:06.520
Oh okay, and you only watched like a few minutes.

1368
01:12:06.840 --> 01:12:08.600
Yeah, I just kind of skipped around in the movie

1369
01:12:08.680 --> 01:12:09.840
just to see different parts of it.

1370
01:12:16.079 --> 01:12:19.279
So you mentioned during the episode that there was a

1371
01:12:19.319 --> 01:12:23.960
police lineup, and police life ups just are really interesting

1372
01:12:24.039 --> 01:12:27.439
to me, Like, obviously they have, you know, a suspect,

1373
01:12:27.640 --> 01:12:29.840
but who are the other guys? I know, how do

1374
01:12:29.880 --> 01:12:32.760
they get those people in there during a police life.

1375
01:12:32.600 --> 01:12:33.960
I don't want to be in a police lineup. That

1376
01:12:34.000 --> 01:12:34.520
would be fun.

1377
01:12:34.520 --> 01:12:36.479
Oh, you probably will be some day the way you're

1378
01:12:37.439 --> 01:12:38.399
life so fast.

1379
01:12:39.239 --> 01:12:42.000
There one of the innocent guys, not as the guilty guys.

1380
01:12:42.039 --> 01:12:44.560
Maybe you apply, Maybe there's an application online.

1381
01:12:44.600 --> 01:12:46.880
I bet it's mostly other cops.

1382
01:12:46.479 --> 01:12:48.520
Like I think it's usually probably a couple of cops,

1383
01:12:48.520 --> 01:12:51.000
but there's probably a couple of you know, guys that.

1384
01:12:51.079 --> 01:12:53.239
People they drag in off the street, or somebody who's

1385
01:12:53.439 --> 01:12:56.279
refracted in the waiting room, like waiting to bail out

1386
01:12:56.319 --> 01:12:58.039
there the sister.

1387
01:12:58.640 --> 01:13:02.159
Yeah, maybe I don't know. So our weekend is freed

1388
01:13:02.239 --> 01:13:04.560
up a little bit. Now, Yeah, we're not going to

1389
01:13:04.600 --> 01:13:06.920
talk about why. So what do you want to do?

1390
01:13:06.920 --> 01:13:11.000
Do you want to do like like a Costco Target

1391
01:13:11.520 --> 01:13:12.399
home depot run?

1392
01:13:12.560 --> 01:13:15.399
Wait, we're not. Oh, I didn't really understand why you

1393
01:13:15.399 --> 01:13:17.039
said we're not going to talk about why, and then

1394
01:13:17.079 --> 01:13:18.439
it just hit me and now I'm savvy.

1395
01:13:18.720 --> 01:13:22.600
Oh sorry, But thank you to the listeners that have

1396
01:13:22.680 --> 01:13:25.119
checked in on right. He really took it like he

1397
01:13:25.159 --> 01:13:25.720
took it like a.

1398
01:13:25.800 --> 01:13:27.640
Cham Yeah, I took it pretty well.

1399
01:13:27.680 --> 01:13:29.399
But would you care about what happens with the rest

1400
01:13:29.399 --> 01:13:30.520
of football season.

1401
01:13:30.279 --> 01:13:32.680
Or not that much? But I'll I mean, I may

1402
01:13:33.000 --> 01:13:35.039
check out a game here or there. But no, I

1403
01:13:35.039 --> 01:13:38.479
don't really care. But no, we could do all those things. Really,

1404
01:13:39.319 --> 01:13:40.359
what did you think Costco?

1405
01:13:40.560 --> 01:13:43.920
I was just kidding Costco, Target, Home Depot, run every

1406
01:13:43.960 --> 01:13:44.479
Man's Stream.

1407
01:13:44.520 --> 01:13:48.199
It all sounds so great. I have a gift certificate

1408
01:13:48.239 --> 01:13:51.279
for a bookstore that I need to use at some

1409
01:13:51.399 --> 01:13:53.840
point so we can go to the bookstore too.

1410
01:13:53.920 --> 01:13:57.239
Well, our life is so exciting. You just wouldn't believe

1411
01:13:57.279 --> 01:13:59.039
all the shenanigans we get up to.

1412
01:13:59.159 --> 01:14:01.840
It's pretty pretty well, well, it's so cold.

1413
01:14:01.600 --> 01:14:04.159
Like even if you are like a skier, which we're

1414
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not really like, it's just too cold really to do

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any of that right now. It's like, yeah, twenty degrees

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are colder.

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Staying inside, reading a book, watching a movie, or a show.

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That sounds good to me.

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Before we go, I wanted to mention that we like

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to think that our podcast brings people together in this

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time of social change. We feel that it's important to

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share that equality, inclusion, and empathy are our core values.

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01:14:27.640 --> 01:14:32.399
We stand with marginalized communities, our LGBTQIA plus friends, and

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01:14:32.439 --> 01:14:35.840
all those who have faced injustice, believing that compassion and

1425
01:14:35.880 --> 01:14:40.000
empathy make us stronger and safer as a society. Thank

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01:14:40.039 --> 01:14:42.319
you for being part of this community as we continue

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01:14:42.319 --> 01:14:42.960
to grow together.

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Thank you all so much for listening. We appreciate each

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01:14:46.479 --> 01:14:48.800
and every one of you. Until next time, don't cure

1430
01:14:48.800 --> 01:14:50.279
a husband and don't kill your wife.

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01:15:00.119 --> 01:15:25.960
Then to the Big to