Karen Read and John O'Keefe - Part 2 of 3

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage. It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife. And some days you feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina. How are you? I'm great? How are you? I'm okay? Yeah, just okay. I'm a little tired. Yeah. It's a beautiful day here in Michigan, though we have had a pretty nice summer. I know, what are we doing inside?

0:40 Well, we're yeah, could we do this outside? I'd love to Probably not. All our neighbors are mowing their lawns at the same time, so I guess we really should do it here. But low humidity, not super hot, don very nice. Yeah, so you came back for part two. I came back for the Italian snacks. I knew I knew it. I knew it. There's four more snacks in the box, so we'll have two this time and two next time. Okay, peaked in the box, I have not peaked. In the okay. Well, there was one item that I couldn't help but see what it was, So I will share that with you now because it's so big. Oh, this is the cheetos, okay, Italian. Cheetos, And Sam said these are her favorites. She was excited to have us try these. Okay, So okay, we've got cheetos, and then let's see what else do we have here.

1:29 Take your time. I'm trying not to look in the bies. And we have oh, salamon, salamoni, like little pecanti, like sausages. Okay, little uh, a little uh? What's it called sausages? I can't think of the day when you have little little food. It's a French it's a French word for little food, like little you know, cheese and sausage. And oh that means little food. I don't know what it means. I would just that was the word I was trying to come up with. Oh, okay, all right, well let's try our salami and our cheetos. So what did you think of those snacks?

2:20 They were both really good. It's really cool to see packaging that has like no English on it whatsoever. Yeah, the Cheetos. I don't know if Sam knew this, but I love cheetos kind of a guilty pleasure of mine. They're ketchup Cheetos, which is kind of wild really good. I didn't. The texture is so different. Yeah, I mean, you're more of the Cheetos kind of swer than I am. I don't know if they were. Was the flavor that different from regular Cheetos. Or just yeah, there is definitely a tomato taste, okay. Yeah, and the little sausages yummy too. Yeah. I would give the cheetos night out of ten and the sausage is eight out of ten. I was going to say the exact same thing. Really, yeah, we are in sync, I.

3:01 Guess so we don't sing though. No, Well, thanks again Sam and Tim for the snack. So that was just above and beyond and we appreciate it so much. Totally, so fun. If you haven't listened to part one of Karen Reid, go back and listen to that first before you dive into part two. Do you want to read the summary of part one? I would love to do that. In the early morning hours of January twenty ninth, twenty twenty two, forty six year old Boston police officer John O'Keefe was found dead by his girlfriend, Karen Reid during a blizzard in front of the home of a fellow police officer, Brian Albert. There had been an after party at the Albert's house after a night of heavy drinking at a local bar.

3:42 Karen dropped John off at the party, but he never made it inside the house, or did he The coroner ruled the cause of John's death blunt force trauma and the manner undetermined. His injuries were confusing. He had two black eyes and lacerations on his face, and a skull fracture and several deep scratches on his arm. Some investigators thought his injuries were consistent with being hit by a car. Witnesses at the crime scene recalled that Karen seemingly confessed by saying, I hit him several times. I should have said. There weren't witnesses at the crime scene, but the next morning when they found John's death, that's what I'm referring to when I say witnesses. Right. Karen's Lexus SUV had a broken tail light and pieces were found at the crime scene. Some of the investigator's methods were called into questions, such as storing evidence in red solo cups, using a leaf blower to remove snow from the scene, failing to search the Albert home, and not interviewing all of the witnesses from the party.

4:43 The dueling theories are that Karen Reid hit John O'Keeffe with her car in anger after a night of heavy drinking amidst their two year relationship falling apart. The alternate theory is that the men at the party beat John inside the Albert's home and left him out in the cold to die. We left off talking about the evidence in the. Case, right, and some of it as we went through it, some of it was undisputed, right, things that we knew for sure, but then there's a lot of things that are a little bit disputed right where one side interprets it differently than the other side. And so that's one of the things that makes this case really complicated, is that. There's evidence to support the two theories that we had talked about. Exactly to make things even more confusing, Karen's version of events on the night of January twenty eighth were inconsistent. She initially had told Jen McKay that she last saw John at the Waterfall Bar and Grill and they'd gotten into a fight, and that she didn't remember dropping him off at the after party. She didn't feel well, so she went back to John's house. Kaylee, John's niece, was witnessed to several calls that Karen made and confirmed her story was inconsistent and changed depending on who she talked to. After John's death, Karen stayed with her parents for a couple of days. So I had said in the first part that they had taken her to the Hotpe hospital to have a psychiatric evaluation. She must not have stayed more than a few hours. I think she must have calmed down and gotten herself under control, and then she was released, and think her parents picked her up, so she stayed with them. Karen was overwhelmed with grief

6:15 and confusion. She returned to her home in Braintree. On February first, twenty twenty two. That evening, at about seven pm, a dozen police vehicles pulled up to her house. I don't know why they needed a dozen, but she was cuffed and arrested for John O'Keefe's murder. After her arrest, she hired local attorney David Hyannetti. Karen was charged with vehicular manslaughter, negligent motor vehicle homicide, and leaving the scene of a collision causing injury or death vehicular manslaughter carries a sentence of five to twenty years and up to ten years for leaving the scene of a crime and the loss of your driver's license. Karen's parents, brother, and sister in law attended her arraignment. She was released after spending the night in jail. Her father posted a fifty thousand dollars cash bail. Her attorney, David Yannetti, said quote, I am disappointed in the rush to judgment against my client.

7:09 My client has shown no criminal intent. She loved this man, she is devastated. She is innocent, and that will come out at trial. Does seem like quite a rush to arrest someone only like what two days later. I mean, usually they take their time and make sure that they have all the evidence and all the testing done so exactly. She was interviewed, but I don't think it was, you know, like a really long, thorough interview. On June ninth, twenty twenty two, Karen was arrested again and charged with second degree murder and forced to put up another one hundred thousand dollars in bail, although the prosecutors monitor bail originally said at five hundred thousand dollars. She pleaded not guilty.

7:49 During the second arraignment, Yanetti said he quote had grave concerns about the ethics of this investigation, and he wasn't wrong. The maximum sentence for a secondaryear is life in prison with the possibility of parole. In September twenty twenty two, Karen hired another attorney, Alan Jackson, who dramatically changed the course of her defense strategy. He and Yanetti developed a third party culprit defense. Do you know what that is? Uh? Not? Really? A third party culprit defense is a legal strategy used by defendants and criminal trials to introduce evidence suggesting that someone else, not the defendant in this case, Karen Reid, committed the crime. This defense aims to create reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury about the defendant's guild by pointing to another potential suspect or suspects. Karen's lawyers built their defense strategy around the Massachusetts State Police and the Canton Police Department conspiring against her. They alleged the police were complicit in assisting Brian Albert, Brian Higgins and Colin Albert in covering up the assault and murder of John O'Keefe at the alberts home. In just a minute, where to get into the characters involved in the case, and I'll tell you a little bit more about the Brians and Colin. Alan Jackson said, quote. This case has been very clearly infected with personal relationships and conflicts of interests and cover ups, and we intend to shed as much light as possible on it to stop this very obviously compromised prosecution in its tracks. There are serious questions

9:25 as to the objectivity and veracity of the police investigation that has been conducted to date. I think that Jackson was referring to Massachusetts State Trooper Michael Proctor, and we're going to get to Proctor in a minute. Karen Read's lawyers argued in a pre trial hearing that her indictment should be thrown out because the grand jury was misled by the Norfolk County District attorney. Quote. A majority of the witnesses who testified before the grand jury were not precipient witnesses to any of the events in question, and were instead called for the purpose of testifying to remote an irrelevant, bad character and propensity evidence, prejudicing the jury against Miss Reid, misleading the grand jury, confusing the issues and wasting time. To be clear, not a single witness testified that they had observed, miss read strike O'Keefe with her vehicle, injure him in any way, or otherwise drive erradically on the night in question. The federal investigators hired independent of us, we had no idea and independent of the Commonwealth, hired a professional reconstructionist and three PhDs to look into exactly this issue. Did Karen Reid's SUV make contact with John O'Keeffe and their conclusion to a person was his injuries were inconsistent with damage on the car.

10:44 The damage on the car was inconsistent with having made contact with John O'Keeffe's body. In other words, the car didn't hit him and he wasn't hit by the car end quote. So the nugget that I wanted you to take away from that quote was when he said the federal investigators hired independent of us. There is a federal investigation into this case, and he wants people to know that. And the federal investigators their findings are different than the findings that the police. Had, Okay, very interesting. They argue that the evidence in the case is circumstantial. There are no eye witnesses to Karen Reid hitting John O'Keeffe.

11:24 The Grand Juri was not told that the coroner found John's cause of death to be undetermined, but Judge Beverly Conone declined to dismiss the charges against Karen. Now, we're going to talk a little bit about the people involved in the case that we've been talking about. It's going to dive a little deeper and tell you a little bit more about them. Okay, We'll start with Michael Proctor, who is a Massachusetts state trooper and was the lead investigator in the case. He is a polarizing figure. He has been accused of covering up the murder of John O'Keeffe and sharing details of the case with family members and friends, which of course, compromised the investigation. Karen Reid's defense claims that he has close personal ties to several people involved in the case. He is friends with Brian Albert and his sister Courtney is friends with Julie Albert and Kevin Albert. One of Brian's brothers is a Canton police officer and they have worked together. We're going to get back to Julie Albert in a minute. Assistant DA Adam Lanley said, quote, any relationship is ancillary tangential at best.

12:29 The DA claimed that they had vetted all of their witnesses and didn't find any conflicts of interest. A lot of overlap. Yeah, well so coincidentally, the case that I am currently working on is also about a Massachusetts police officer the other side of the state, and in his case, the investigators immediately said, we need to have the state police take over this investigation because we can't have any appearance of conflict of interest. So they handled it the exact right way. This sounds like, assuming these relationships are true, that this is completely wrong. Well, Proctor was a state police officer, though, so is that oh kind of yeah. The Proctor has been criticized for not recusing himself from the investigation because some of the people involved our friends and acquaintances. He admitted in court that he was friends with Nicole and Brian Albert, the owners of the home. The Boston Herald reported that a friend of Proctor texted him quote, I'm sure the owner of the house will receive some shit. Proctor texted back, Nope, homeowner is to Boston cop too.

13:38 He should have recused himself. I have no doubt about that. Yeah, Proctor did not interview Brian Albert, a key witness, until six months after O'Keefe's death. And I think there was a case of several other witnesses too. They weren't interviewed, you know, right. After the court. They arrested her two days after his death, and they didn't interview for six months, okay. And they all should have been interviewed immediately. Proctor has made derogatory and sexist remarks against Karen Reid. His phone was seized and his text messages revealed misogynistic and biased opinions. He referred to her as a whack job, called her a see you next Tuesday, a retard, and said she leaks pooh. She remembered she had like she has crones disease and she had a clause to me back, so just so wow gross. He said she's a babe, but has a weird fall River accent though no ass which okay. Yeah.

14:37 He texted his sister hopefully she kills herself, referring to Karen. In another text, he said no nudes so far, No nudes, no nudes. He texted his big group of friends, no duds so far, he sent inappropriate texts to coworkers and supervisors, which to me indicates a pervasive attitude of misogyny and unprofessionalism among his peers. His superiors even liked some of the inappropriate texts. Wow. Attorney Stara Romer told NBC News quote, I have never seen this kind of appearance of impropriety. I am sure that this happens every day. The difference between this case and other cases is that generally, the detectives going home and talking to whoever about a case, they're not talking about it with people who know the people that are involved in the case and our potential suspects. Michael Practor is also involved in the case of Brian Walsh, who remains in a Massachusetts jail accused of murdering his wife Anna on New Year's Day twenty twenty three. Remember we covered that case a while back. Now that Practor's credibility is under scrutiny, it could potentially affect the Walsh case.

15:46 To this guy's like, you can't you can't trust anything, he said. Oh yeah, that's the problem in these situations, right. If somebody in that position of authority is saying stuff like this, it calls into question every case he's investigated, and if. You're an investigator, you keep your mouth shut. You can tell people about what you're investigating. An internal affairs investigation was opened in March twenty twenty four to determine whether Michael Proctor's actions potentially violated department policy. I'm pretty sure they did. The case is also under federal investigation. Practor remained a full time officer while the investigation was ongoing. The defense was not allowed to mention the federal probe during the trial. On September twenty fifth, twenty twenty three, a picture was taken of Jen McCabe's car outside of Proctor's home.

16:34 Oh. They claim it was just to discuss the harassment they were both receiving from the media and the public. That's a little odd. Why need it at home? That doesn't make any sense. Ryan Albert is an ex marine who fought in Desert Storm and a trained MMA fighter. He has six siblings, so that's why there's so many Alberts in this story. In twenty thirteen, he appeared on a TNT television series is called Boston's Finest. He and John O'Keeffe were both Boston police officers, but had never worked directly together. Bought the Boston Police Department employees over two thousand officers. Bryan and his wife Nicole didn't know John O'Keeffe well and had never met Karen before the night of January twenty eighth.

17:19 Bryan Albert said, quote, although I didn't know him well, I considered him to be a friend. I considered him somebody that I could hang out with and have a good time with. Nicole's sister, Jennifer McCabe, invited John and Karen back to Brian and Nichole's house. Jennifer knew Karen and John because her daughter was good friends with John's niece, Kayley. Their son, Brian Junior, was celebrating his twenty third birthday at their home that night with a few friends. They were hanging out listening to music and dancing, so the older people were at the bar and grill until Brian Junior was at home about midnight. Brian Senior and Nicole wanted to go back home to celebrate with their son, and that's when they invited the group from the Waterfall to go back to their house. Are you following so far?

18:05 I think so. Yeah. Bryan's brother, Chris and his wife Julie Albert own and operate a pizza shop in Canton called D and E Pizza and Subs. They've recently been flooded with bad reviews. Chris is also a town selectmen in Canton. They, along with their son Colin, lived two doors down from John O'Keefe. John was particular about his lawn and had on occasion yelled at Colin and his friends to stay off his lawn. The Alberts jokingly referred to John as never Cracker, a character from the animated movie Monster House who is obsessed with his lawn. Ah, my lawner, do you want to regain alive.

18:53 Over? That movie has a place in my heart because her son watched it approximately a thousand times he was a little kid. Nevercracker was how John's contact information appeared in their phones. On the night of January twenty eighth, Chris wanted Karen and John to join the group at the waterfall. He jokingly texted John quote, get over here, or I'll fuck up your lawn. John O'Keeffe had recently talked to Chris Albert about Colin and his friends throwing beer cans and bottles in his yard. This, Karen's defense claimed was the impetus for John's alleged beating. One night, Colin and his friends triggered John's alarm system. When he confronted the teens, they told him to go fuck yourself, to which John replied, get the fuck out of here. The next morning, there were a dozen cans and bottles in his yard. The Alberts were both adamant that after leaving the waterfall, they didn't see Karen or John enter the house, although Jen McCabe claims she saw a dark suv outside of the house near the driveway. The guests left the house by two am, and they didn't know that John lay deceased in their front yard until the next morning, when Jen came in and woke them up. Jen McCabe is Nicole Albert's sister. Nicole Albert is married to Brian. She's the homeowner of thirty four Affair of You. I just want to make sure, Yeah, so many people.

20:13 Repetition is good for me and I'm sure for the people listening. So you're with me, I'm with you. Jennifer and her husband went to the after party and stayed until about one thirty am. Her cell phone data implies that she left at exactly one forty seven am. She and her husband Matt drove two of Brian Junior's friends home the night of the party. One of the most intriguing pieces of evidence is in the case is the alleged search made by Jen at two point twenty seven am that you know well, because you've been helping me with this part of the case has longed to die in the cold, and I'm going to try not to say has too many times. Right, It was obviously a typo meant be how long exactly?

20:54 The entire case hinges on whether Jen actually made the search at that time, which remains a subject of debate. I'm going to get back to that in a minute. According to Boston Magazine, after Karen's arrest, a tipster contacted Karen's lawyer, David Yannetti and claimed that Brian Higgins, Brian Albert and his nephew Colin Albert got into a fight with John and beat him and then threw him out into the snow after midnight on January twenty ninth, twenty twenty two. The tipster allegedly said, quote, your client is innocent, John was beaten up by Brian Albert and his nephew. They broke his nose, and when O'Keefe didn't come to Brian and a federal agent meeting Brian Higgins, dumped his body onto the front lawn. Whether it was intentional or not is in question, but Colin's name was initially left off the list of people at the Albert's after party.

21:46 Many people believe that the massive cover up was to protect Colin, who was seventeen at the time. Colin was seen with bloody knuckles and has a history of mild violence. Videos emerged of Colin Albert from high school threatening students from a rival high school, yelling quote, I'm going to fuck you up and I will be your asses. There is no creature more volatile on the planet than a seventeen year old mail. Yeah, so I don't put a ton of stock in this, but they're definitely trying to paint Colins this aggressive guy who likes to fight. Colin said he never saw John O'Keefe at the Albert home on the night in question. He said his friend Ali McCabe, Jen's daughter picked him up just after midnight. Colin left as his uncle and aunt were getting home. His cell phone records confirmed that he left at that time. Anne was home by twelve thirty am, and in good weather, it's less than a ten minute drive to Colin's house from the Albert's house. Chris Albert, Collins's father was at the Waterfall Bar, but didn't go to the after party.

22:47 He went straight home. He testified that he got home no later than twelve ten and Colin was home ten or fifteen minutes later. I have seen reports though, that he might have been at the party. Okay, Colin fight At the trial, He called John a good guy and said there was never any animosity between them, which I don't know if that's true enough. But if there was animosity, was it enough to kill him? Karen's attorney, Alan Jackson showed Colin a picture from February twenty sixth with some friends and his knuckles appeared to be injured. Colin said the wounds happened after a fall on the ice. Jackson then asked Colin if his knuckles had been injured when he'd testified before the grand jury. Colin admitted that they had been. He claimed that he busted them up from boxing on a heavy bag, the insinuation being that Colin fights a lot, but no witnesses came forward to really corroborate that. So on at least two occasions, Colin was shown to have you know, kind of injured knuckles. Colin was the ring bearer as a child at the wedding of Courtney Proctor, investigator Michael Proctor's sister, showing the close ties of the two families. Canton, Massachusetts, in Norfolk County, is fifteen minutes southwest of Boston. Canton is like another character in this story. The population is about twenty four thousand, and all of them are often this case. Paul Revere built the nation's first copper rolling mill in Canton in

24:18 eighteen oh one. His poem entitled Canton Dale expresses his affection for the town. Duncan Donuts is headquartered in Canton. Like so much of our country, the town of Canton has divided itself into two camps. Those who believe that Karen Read is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of striking John O'Keefe dead with her Alexis, and those who believe that Karen is a victim of a conspiracy set up by the local and State Police. The two groups do not see eye to eye. Obviously, John O'Keefe's death has fractured the once close knit community, ending friendships and tarnishing reputations. I just want to go back and talk about Duncan Donuts for a second, Okay, Oh, here in Detroit, in the Detroit area, it's all about Tim Horton's.

25:07 Yeah, I mean, Tim Mortons is Canadian, but we're practically Canadian. We're right there, so yes. Right, So if you're in Michigan, you're a big Tim Horton's person, not a Duncan Donuts person, Right. I'm okay with either myself, but. Donut is a donut. Sure. I think I would probably favor Duncan because I'm not a native of Michigander, which there's probably going to be people with Cam down her front lawn now with stakes. And I'll be right there with him. In November twenty twenty three, Canton residents voted in favor of paying two hundred thousand dollars to hire an independent consulting firm to audit the Canton Police Department due to the ongoing investigation of the Karen Read case. The vote was passed nine hundred three to eight hundred during a special town meeting in November. Chris Albert, Brian Albert's brother, was voted as a Canton Town selectman in April twenty twenty three. Do you know what a town selectman is?

26:00 Guessing? It's like a city council type member. Yeah. It's a member of the town's select board, which serves as the executive branch of government in many New England towns, particularly in Massachusetts, Maine, and New Hampshire. And if you watched Gilmore Girls like I, did you know all about town selectments. Residents called for his resignation, but he is currently serving the role of clerk, and I believe he still is today. One lifelong Canton resident told Boston Magazine quote, I only surround myself now with people that I trust. It's like bringing up Donald Trump at a dinner party. It could just explode. People don't want people to know which side they're on because like politics, they don't want to deal with the fallout. The problem with this town is that nobody fucking leaves. Most people in Canton are turning on each other because they don't like the Albert family, or they're pissed that Chris Albert was elected to the select board, or they're jealous of Jen from high school or whatever these stupid bullshit things are. There are these beefs from high school with these people. End quote. Tensions were so high that Norfolk County DA Michael Morrissey recorded a video message, an unprecedented move for a DA. He referred to evidence that counters much of Karen Reid's alternate theory and pleaded with the public to stop harassing the parties involved. He said, quote, it should be an outrage to any decent person and it needs to stop. Innuendo is not evidence. False narratives are not evidence. To have them accused of murder is outrageous. To have them harassed

27:32 and intimidated based on false narratives and accusations is wrong. There are witnesses doing what our justice system asks of them. We try people in court and not on the internet for a reason. The internet has no rules of evidence, the Internet has no punishment for perjury, and the Internet does not know all of the facts. End quote. I think the Internet does know all of it. I mean they're buried in there somewhere. Canton, Massachusetts reminds me of a Dennis Lahane novel and I know you've read some Dennis Lahane. I've read almost all of Dennis Lahane's novels, but I couldn't tell you one from I love his book. It's a really good writer. They're like Moody and cor Option and yeah, Boston. I don't know the Massachusetts just it's a cool state. And we're actually gonna.

28:21 We're going there in a few weeks. A day and a half there. Yeah, I'm excited. The two Dennis Lahane books I would most recommend our Mystic River and Shutter Island. Sure Island. Oh my gosh, that's a great, good Halloween book. Right, yeah, great movie, really good adaptation. We'll be back after a break. During our break, I had more of the catch up cheetos, and they're really good. We didn't mention this, but they're more like a veggie straw. I think they're. Called almost like a like a square, like a French fry or. Something different texture than in American cheetos. Williemmy, all right, I'm a turtle boy.

29:06 The Karen Reid case has intrigued the world of true crime. TikTokers and YouTubers have been all over the case, none more than Aiden Kearney, a forty two year old father of two, also known as Turtle Boy, a citizen journalist, strong believer in the First Amendment, and top supporter of Karen Reid. His name comes from the iconic Turtle Boy statue in Worcester, Massachusetts. The statue, officially known as Turtle Boy Fountain or Burnside Fountain, is a well known local landmark. It's a one hundred year old bronze statue of a boy in the nude riding a turtle. The work was commissioned by Harriet Burnside as a memorial to her father, a prominent lawyer, in nineteen o five. She wanted the piece to be a drinking spot for dogs and horses.

29:52 Charles Harvey, the designer, died by suicide before the statue was completed. His assistant, Sherry Edmondson Frye, finish the piece. At its unveiling in nineteen twelve, it received mixed reviews, but today is a beloved, iconic, whimsical landmark of Worcester. I'm going to show you a picture of it really quick. When some people see the statue, they say that the boy might be enjoying the turtle too much. Yes, that was my first reaction on seeing it as well. Looked a little bit questionable, but you know, that's okay. But it's a it's a cute statue and it has a long history. I just gave you like a little brief part of it. But it used to be a fountain. I believe it is no longer a fountain. At one point was stolen. Maybe we could go see the statue when we're in Boston in a few weeks.

30:39 We should do that. But back to Turtleboy the journalist. So, Turtleboy calls himself an entertainer, a journalist, and an activist. Before becoming a blogger and media sensation, Aiden was a high school history teacher and track coach. He earned himself a suspension after openly sharing his opinions on sports and other musings on a now defunct blog called Aiden from Worcester. Not to be quieted, he quickly began another anonymous blog, which was the beginning of Turtleboy. In twenty eighteen, he wrote a memoir called I Am Turtleboy. In his book, Aiden says his destiny was to be Turtleboy. His mission is quote exposing hypocrisy, and showing the other side of whatever story was causing the latest Internet outrage. No stranger to controversy, He's been sued for libel and defamation nine times, but he is yet to lose a case. In left leaning Massachusetts, turtle Boy is a breath of fresh air for conservatives. He enjoys skewering liberals. He has personally investigated and broken several stories of corruption in Massachusetts, such as Troopergate, but his tactics often involve bullying, doxing, and harassment. Along with his followers, Kearney runs a website called tb Daily News.

31:55 He believes that Karen Reid was framed by the Boston Police Department in what he coined the Case Hampton cover Up. In July twenty twenty three, Turtle Boy, in his new Lexus and fifty supporters had a rolling road rally. They drove through the streets of Canton while he live streamed the two hour parade. The group stopped at the homes of Brian Albert, Michael Proctor, and Jennifer McCabe as Turtle Boy shouted into a bullhorn at each stop and berated them for their part in the cover up of John O'Keeffe's murder, He said, quote the people that live right here are cop killers. Unquote. Their final destination was the Canton Police Department. He once showed up at Jen McCabe's daughter's lacrosse game and live streamed a confrontation with her.

32:39 Hey, Matt, how you doing pal good? How are you doing? How you doing? Hy Joen? How you doing? Fancy? Sy? And you here? How are you all right? So? How did cork go the other day? Sorry? The child on the team? Do you I do? Now? I'm at a public event, so I can do whatever I want. So anyway, So John, I have a question. Did you think that you could outsmart Karen read? Did you do you think that's funny? Do you think that's funny? How long did I and cold? What does this gentleman doing? Look at that? The readA Hey, Jen, are you worried about what's gonna happen. To your family? Mom to jail? Don't touch me? Why are you shaking it again? Why do you shake again? Touch me again? Jen? Are you worried about what's gonna happen when your kids go to jail? When you go to jail, I apologize to your children? Are you worried at all about that?

33:24 Huh huh? What's going on here? Are you so fans? I sure you are? Jen? Did you think that you could outsmart Karen read yes or no? Did you? Why did you google how long to die in cole? Jen? Why did you google how long to die in cold? Jens d it. Some of turtle Boy's followers have sent harassing messages to Jen McCabe, telling her to kill herself. Aiden was arrested in October twenty twenty three on eight counts of harassing witnesses and one count of conspiracy in which a police dispatcher gave him officer's license numbers. He pleaded not guilty and was ordered to stay away from the witnesses. He wore a free Karen Reid hoodie to his arraignment. He was arrested again in December twenty twenty three for multiple counts of witness intimidation. Also in December, an ex girlfriend served him with a restraining order. He was held in custody for two months until he was released in February twenty twenty four. He has staged protests outside the homes of some of the parties involved in the case. Accusing them of covering up the murder of John O'Keefe. He's sold merchandise and written hundreds of articles on the case.

34:33 Again. His website is tbdailynews dot com, and it's kind of a shocking amount of work that he has done. He writes a lot of articles. And when I say that he has merchandise, he has. He has a lot of merchandise. Yes, he has so many tea shirts summer Karen Reade. Some of them are just Massachusetts things. But I think turtle Boy is doing well for himself. Okay. On his YouTube channel, he said, quote with the O'Keefe's enough of the fucking pity party for these fucking people. The only good part about John not being alive is that he doesn't have to be around you useless maggots for a second more. Fuck you, fuck your high horse, burn in hell. The beauty of Turtle Boys that I can do things in an unconventional manner that other journalists are restricted from doing. I love being the center of attention and being theatrical and performing. This is what I was made to do. Unquote. I could see that he seems to have a pretty honest assessment of himself. With his work on the Karen Reid trial, Turtle Boy has gained a new level of fame beyond Massachusetts state lines.

35:39 Aiden has not only earned fame, but fortune too. According to Boston Magazine, since his coverage of the Karen Reid case, his monthly income has ballooned to as high as fifty thousand dollars a month. He has been very vocal about what he believes is a statewide conspiracy covering up the death of John O'Keefe. Aiden, Kearney, and Karen Reid have had one hundred and eighty nine phone calls between them, totaling forty hours over seven months. Karen allegedly fed him confidential information. Kierny has sat with the press during the trial, but he is not allowed to get within one hundred feet of the witnesses that he has harassed. The prosecution denies that Turtle Boy is a journalist and called him an activist, although he does have press credentials. He told Boston Magazine quote, I've been maligned in the media as some sort of vulgar bad person, but I like to think that with the Karen Reid story, I've rebranded. When I look back ten years from now at this Karen Reid thing. It's something that my kids can be proud of because I stood by my principles and I stood up for an innocent woman and against a corrupt system.

36:44 Ut all this to say that Aiden Kearney has a lot of influence over his followers who show up for him, and without his coverage, this case would not have gotten the interest and the media coverage that it has. One problem with Turtle Boy is he not maintain his neutrality and as a journalist, that's critical, right. I mean there's journalism and there is opinion. Right Like if you look at any newspaper, there's there's articles that are news, articles that are supposed to be factual and impartial and objective, and then there are op ed pieces which are opinions. And it seems like he is more of an op ed journalist. But he really has changed the trajectory of the case and got it, in my opinion, a lot more attention that it otherwise would happen. Yeah, he was part of the feeding frenzy. I wanted us to have a conversation about some of the problems with the case, some of the issues and the investigation messy police work. And there's a lot of kind of messy things that happened, right with.

37:47 The red cups and the leaf blower. Well, in some of the things, I think the police had to be adaptable. Because of the middle of the snowstorm. I mean, it wasn't a snow it was a blizzard. It was windy and this, you know, and they didn't know if the evidence was blowing everywhere. So you have to give them, I think, a little bit of leeway with that. They you know, the leaf flower it was not something that typically would be done, but some people were like, you know, they did a good job. They were careful with it. It didn't get out of hand. Not interviewing key witnesses for six months until six months after the fact, that that to me is very sloppy. Right, Yeah, The words Karen allegedly uttered, I hit him weren't in the official report, and the way police work works, if it's not in the report, it's like it didn't happen.

38:35 Right. It's interesting though, So the word the words that she allegedly uttered, I hit him, that came from a few different people, right, like the like the paramedics, I think, right, and some of the k or and Jeffer McKay. Several people did hear her say not necessarily hit him. Some people were like, thought that she said, did I hit him? Could I have hit him? So different variations of I hit him. But even if she said I hit him, I hit him, I hit him, it wasn't a confession. She didn't sign it. You know, she was upset, she was hysterical, she loved the man, and. She could have been talking about I hit him like when they were they had a fight earlier or something like that too. Like we don't know exactly what she meant.

39:20 But the fact that it wasn't in the police record, I'm assuming these witnesses told the police about this. And they didn't and they failed to write it. And she's definitely sloppy. The fact that the investigators never went into the Albert's. Home, Yeah, I think that's a big, big mistake. I think they may have gone in just like to have a conversation, like a thirty minute conversation, but it wasn't an official interview, and they didn't go down to the basement. Right Chloe the dog was rehomed and as far as I know, we don't know where she is okay, and that wasn't really followed up on. Okay, And they'd had Chloe for several years and then all of a sudden she was gone. That's kind of an emotional thing to re home your dog send her to a different state.

40:06 Do you think that's suspicious, I mean, it. Definitely seems strange, so I would I would definitely want to look into it if I was a cop. It may be nothing suspicious about it, but it's certainly something I would want to know about. There was a time that Karen's car was left unprotected, so it could have been tampered with. On January twenty ninth, Karen's car, her Lexus, was seized from the driveway of her parents' house by a towing company at four to twelve pm and it was towed back to Diamond Towing At five point thirty pm. The police picked up her car from the towing company and then they took it to their forensics lage. Yeah, so for more than an hour it probably sat there unprotected.

40:48 Which is a problem with chain of custody and all that kind of thing. And the crime scene. The space in front of the Albert's house wasn't security either. Okay, and remember, you know, like the pieces of the tail light were found on a couple of other occasions, not just the day of the crime. Yep, this part is confusing. But there's a video of Karen's car once it was in police custody that was played at the trial, and the video is inverted, okay, so it. Sort of made it look like the driver's side was the fastener side and vice versa. Okay, looks as if someone was trying to tamper with the video. I don't know if it was just an honest mistake, it seems suspicious. The butt dials. There's been at least nine butt dials or people people refer to as butt dials. And you know, ages ago, when we got our first cell phones, butt dials happened all the time.

41:38 But it was so embarrassing because you'd call like your doctor's office by accident and they'd be hello, hello, and you. Know, being your car singing along with an abbatoon and everyone we'd be hearing you. Yeah. But in twenty twenty four, I know, we have. Lock screens, we have security codes, we have face. Yeah, it just doesn't happen. So to have nine unaccounted. For all in the same night with multiple different people, right. I know we talked about it people involved in the case. So yeah, that seems a little bit shady. There was a ring camera at John O'Keefe's house, and some of the footage seems to be missing. Oh okay, but I've also heard that, you know, it was a blizzard. We can't forget that there was a blizzard, right that.

42:18 During bad weather sometimes the footage just isn't available. That's so it could just be a coincidence. Brian Albert and Brian Higgins both destroyed their phones before they were sent a preservation notice for their data. That doesn't look suspicious at all. Wow. And I'm not sure of the exact date, but I think it was September twenty third their phones were we'll talk about this moren whom we get to the trial. Higgins destroyed his phone, where Brian Albert upgraded his phone. Okay, but the day before that they had the notice that they needed to turn their phones over. Yeah, that seems a little bit strange. Absolutely, have they given any explanation for that?

42:58 Yes, we'll get to that a little. I mean, well, Brian Albert said, oh, it was just time for an upgrade. If you upgrade your phone, you don't lose all your data unless you intentionally as. If men and women act differently when they upgrade their phone. Because as a woman, I want everything. I want all my pictures, I want all my texts pretty much. Yeah, once in a great while, I'm like, yeah, And it always feels when I go and delete all my texts, which I don't do very often, but every year or so I'll do it. But I think men are less likely to save photos? Are you more likely to put them on your computer? And I don't know. I don't know if there's any pattern between genders on that one. But as Brian Higgins said, I'm divorced, I don't have any kids. I didn't have any pictures I wanted to save on my phone. And it might be just that, you know, for privacy reasons too. It's not necessarily nefarious.

43:50 It sounds very suspicious though. Yeah, I wouldn't want to. I really wouldn't want to. I'm the most boring person ever, but I wouldn't want to turn my text over for sure. The flooring that was changed in the basement, that's suspicious. One more thing about John's ring camera. It registered fifteen events between six pm on January twenty eighth and six am the next morning. Yet there is no video of Karen returning back to the house that night, and we know she did okay, so there was probably some glitch. But again, yeah, snowstorm could have obscured the camera maybe when she returned. We talked about this a little bit. But also we need to note that federal prosecutors have taken the highly unusual step of launching a grand jury investigation into the state law enforcement's handling of the John O'Keeffe case. According to The Boston Globe, this investigation has been ongoing for at least a year. All twelve people who were at the Elbert's house on the night of January twenty eighth were subpoenaed to testify in front of the grand jury.

44:52 The thing is, with these federal investigations, it could be wrapped up. We don't know, right, We'll only know if there are indictments, anything will come of it. So it's possibly that it's come and gone and they. Just decided not to do any indictments, or it could happen that they decide to indict tomorrow. Right, Kieren Reid's defense is the beneficiary of this federal investigation. They have turned over the evidence to her defense and includes over three thousand pages, including crash reconstruction experts who concluded that John's injuries were not consistent with being hit by a car, which is kind of surprising because it's supposed to be secret, But yet they did give the.

45:32 I think's interesting, and they had that before the trial. Okay, now we're going to take a closer look at the timeline of events between January twenty eighth and January twenty ninth. Okay, it's seventh. Well, remember Karen and John had been fighting, right We had True Crime Theater in the last episode. And that was in the morning of the twenty Morning of. The twenty eighth, they weren't getting along. They went about their day and then they met up later. At seven point thirty seven pm, John and his friend Michael Camerono arrive at c F. McCarthy's restaurant via an uber. In eight fifty one, Karen came to the c F. McCarthy's restaurant. I think they had several drinks together. At ten forty Karen and John left c F. McCarthy's to go to the Waterfall to meet Jen and Matt McKay, Brian and Nicole Albert, and Chris and Julie Albert. I think they're right across the street from each other. It's like a two minute.

46:27 Walk, okay, So they just walked over there. Yeah, And Kieren took her drink with her and she thought it was funny. And when she got to the bar, she was showing everyone, see, I have my drink with me. Is that an Because John took his drink with them when they left the bar later that night, right right, Okay, it's really funny. We wouldn't I don't think I would ever take a drink with me. Well, it's not true. If I had five drinks, then I probably would. They were at the Waterfall for probably an hour, an hour and twenty minutes. They had several drinks, and then around twelve pm twelve am, the party begins to break up. Chris and Julie Albert went home, but everyone else was invited back to Brian and Nichole's house at thirty four Fairview Road. At twelve ten, Karen and John left the bar, and John is seen leaving with a short cocktailed class at twelve fifteen, John texts Jennifer McCabe where to question mark. She called him and they talked for forty four seconds. She later deleted this from her call log allegedly, and she called him several more times within the next hour. At twelve eighteen, Jennifer arrived at the Albert's house and called John again and they talked for thirty six seconds. At twelve twenty four, phone ping show that Karen and John are at the Albert's house, Like in front of the house, Karen and John must have sat in the car for five minutes.

47:49 I think they might have been arguing during this time. At twelve twenty nine, there is another call between Jen and John that lasted only for eight seconds, and it was probably something like Hey, are you here, and John's like, yep, I'll be right in. And the twelve twenty nine call was the last call that we know that was answered. Between twelve twenty nine and twelve fifty, Jen called John ten more times and all of those went unanswered. Karen told Nightline that she left around twelve thirty. She wasn't sure that they were invited to the after party, and she didn't feel comfortable going inside so she told John, go in and scope things out, let me know what the mood is, and maybe I'll come in. She said.

48:30 She waited ten minutes and became angry when John didn't answer her texts, so she left and went back to his house. She left him angry voicemails. She called him a loser and her pervert. But at the same time, no one at the party ever saw John, but some people did see an suv pull into the driveway around twelve thirty. It doesn't This story is not making sense to me. So she's saying she dropped him off and said go in and text me. Right, he didn't see him go in, like she was right there. And so, like I said earlier, her story did change. And this is what her version of the story was to Nightline. Okay that she I.

49:12 Think she said that she saw his head poke into the house, not his whole body enter the house. Okay, even that doesn't add up. But okay, right, and it doesn't. The timeline doesn't add up either, because at twelve forty one, it shows her back at John's house, so we know that John was still in her car at twelve twenty nine. And she said she waited ten minutes, but ten minutes later she was back at his house. Okay, and his. House was less than ten minutes away from the Albert's house. Yeah. From twelve thirty am to six am, Karen called John's cell phone fifty three times and left him eight voicemails. We talked about that last time, but that's a shocking number of it that. It's a lot of calls. Here's a clip of some of Karen's voicemails. Now far as his first voicemail, what time did this twelve thirty seven am? Submission? If I could play that for the dread Yes? Third message, what time is that received?

50:10 Twelve fifty nine John? In regard to the fifth message, what time was I received by mister Keystone? When eleven am? One in the morning? Nephew, sure you're. In The Sixth message sir, what time was that received by mister Keystone? One eighteen am? John? I'm going home. I cannot see any and you go home? You will him leading next to me? Your mother? Yeah. Seventh message sir? What time was I received by mister Keystone?

50:54 Five twenty three am. Karen obviously very upset. She calls him a pervert, many times, she must think he's with another woman. Oh, okay, maybe. At twelve forty one am, Karen cell Phone places her back at John's house, which is six minutes away. At one forty five am, Caitlin Alberts, Brian and Nicole Elbert's daughter was picked up by her boyfriend to go back to their apartment. And she said that she didn't notice anything in the front yard, and neither did Tristan. And really there's a lot of people that are kind of like leaving the party. And but his body was probably covered in snow.

51:34 No, it probably wasn't because the snow had just kind of started. It was just flurries, Okay, so for several hours until I think, I don't know, four or five six am that's when it started picking up. The heaviest snow happened at eight am. Okay, So it wouldn't have been enough snow to cover a you know, a large man after two am. A snowplow driver. And I always said, there wasn't like a ton of snow, but he could. Been a just driving around and getting ready. Right, and maybe he was salting or maybe there was enough snow to plow. But there certainly wasn't you know, to cover a you know, John was six foot to two hundred and fifteen pounds. You know, they would have taken several inches of snow to cover his body where it wouldn't it would appear to be a shrub or something. Okay, Later on we're going to talk about the snowplow driver a little bit more. But he did see a car that was in front of the Albert's house. It was a forward edge. And the reason he noticed the car is because during a snow emergency, they are not supposed to be cars parked on the street. So he was going to have to have the car removed, so he paid special note to the forward edge.

52:43 Oka. And his implication was that because the car was there, he noticed it and he didn't notice a. Body, okay, And he remembered the exact location of the car. Well, it was in front of a flagpole. Remember that John's body was by a flagpole, So gotcha. Around four five, Kaylee, John's niece, was woken by Karen screaming that John didn't come home. A four point fifty three, Kaylee called Jen McCabe to ask her if she had any idea where John was at five am, Karen called Carrie Roberts, John's lifelong friend, and told her John was missing, and that's when the women decided to meet at Jen McCabe's house to go look for John. And it's possible that Karen Reid first went to thirty four Fairview Road and that's when she saw John's body and what.

53:29 And there's some evidence then indicates that she might have gone there. First, right, Yeah, I think her either her cell phone or her GPS data. Yeah. At five seven am, surveillance video from John's ring camera shows Karen leaving the house in a hurry, and it appears that she hits John's car before she drove to the McCabe's house. When Karen got to the mccab's house, she showed Carrie and Jen her tail light and she was like, I don't know what happened. Apparently I cracked my tail light. Carrie Roberts later testified that it was cracked and peace was sticking out. It actually was like sticking out in sharp and she said something like I was afraid that someone was gonna like cut themselves on it or snag their jacket on it.

54:12 Okay. The three women decided to first return to John's house to see if maybe he'd come home, or maybe maybe he was in bed and Karen had just missed him. When they didn't find him, they drove to the Albert's house at thirty four fear of your road, Jen McCabe drove Karen's Lexus and you remember from last time. As they pulled up, Karen became hysterical. She jumped out of the car and began screaming. And it was still pretty dark. The sun doesn't didn't rise that day until seven oh one am. There are varying reports as to what Karen said, but witnesses recall hearing her say, could I have hit him? Did I hit him? And what if he's dad? What if a plow hit him? I don't remember, she said, I don't remember anything from last night. We drank so much.

54:55 I don't remember anything. At six oh four am, Jen called nine to one one. At six p'h nine, the EMT's arrived on the scene. At six thirty am, Jen went into the Elbert house to wake up her sister Nicole at the request of an officer at the scene. She had been trying to call them over and over, but neither Brian or Nicole picked up their phones and Jen was hysterical at this point, and Brian and Nicole stayed in the house. They didn't check on the investigation at all. Some people are a little suspicious about that because Brian's a cop, Like can he walk out there and be like, Hey, what's going on? What's going on in my yard? You would think, and you would think that they would have woke like the dog probably would have woken up, Like Chloe's kind of an aggressive dog.

55:39 She would have probably heard the noise and she would have been barking. Wouldn't they have been woken up? So some people pointed that behavior suspicious too. At six thirty four am, Karen texted her friend Catherine and said he's dead. At seven twenty am, Brian Albert called Brian Higgins to tell him that John was dead, and at seven poin fifty that's when John was officially declared dead. But I think as he left the crime scene that people, I'm sure knew that it was unlikely that he was going to be Okay, right, I think we're going to end here for it today and everyone's going to hate to talk about. Yeah, there really is I mean this is a really fascinating case, and I have to say my thinking on it is, I really don't know what to think. I don't either, There's so many thoughts in my head, and I.

56:26 Know I can I understand why everyone is so confused by it and compelled by it. Well, it seems like a lot of people are very sure of what they believe though, and I and I am not at all like I am really I can sort of see both theories. So well, that's our goal in general with our podcast to have an intelligent discussion and not necessarily jump to conclusions. But I do jump to conclusions all the time. So at this point, you have not formed an opinion. I have lots of opinions, but I have not come to any conclusions. No come back for part three. I will definitely come back for part three. I am totally intrigued and looking forward to part three.

57:07 Well, next time we are going to get to the trial and we're going to wrap this thing up. Can't wait before we go. I did want to mention the victim, John O'Keefe. He seemed like he was an amazing man and father and police officer, and brother and uncle and all of those things, and he has gotten lost in this case. Yeah, I mean the case is so involved and there's so much evidence that you do end up focusing a lot on the people who are remaining. And yeah, it definitely I can see how that could happen. But the whole time I worked on this case, I thought of Kayley and Patrick his I don't know whether to call a niece and nephew or son and daughter, but I think they were like a son and obviously they were like a son and daughter to raise them for ten years.

57:52 Yeah, and that's really sad that they lost both their parents so suddenly, and then to lose their surrogate parent right like that. It's really they've been through a lot. Yeah, the family's been through a lot, and they've seen they haven't been treated as well as maybe they could have been by the media. Oh really, it's too bad. So you and I went away for a little getaway. We didn't tell anyone. We just kind of went away for five six days too. We went up north. It was really nice over the fourth of July weekend up to Traverse City, which is a place we go regularly.

58:33 Yeah, we well, I wanted to go. This is so silly, but I really wanted to go to go to the cherry festival and to get some cherries because around fourth of July is when the cherries and Michigan start popping. Yeah, and if you don't know, Traverse City is well known for if anyone. Listens to the podcast, they dug about it every flippant episode. But the cherries were so good. They were very good. We hate so many. When we were there, we got like, I don't know, we had a bunch. I ate most of them, and then we had to get more for the way home, and then I made a pie and yeah. And the great thing is you can just stop at like they have all these little roadside farm stands where they actually grow the cherries right there and they sell them and you can just stop and.

59:16 Wash them for it. It's very quaint. It's a yeah, we love going up north is that was really lovely. Yeah, it was a nice time. We talked about it this on the last episode. The Olympics have already happened by the time you're listening to, so they're probablybe there's. Probably still going on, still going. I'm back. You haven't gun you have a lot for your back, Will you bring some some Parisian cheetos. Now I want to collect cheetos from all. Okay, I was, you know, I was thinking about that because I usually do like to bring back some snacks. But I thought, I've done this so many times now. I've gone to Paris and I brought back snacks. I brought snacks from Iceland last time. But yes, I will. I will look for some Parisian cheetos if I can find them.

59:57 It's just interesting to see the differences among and maybe they have the same exact ones. I'm curious about the ingredients because I don't speak Italian. I think there are less ingredients in the Italian cheetos. Yeah, we should. We should verify that. I think there are fewer like preservatives and. Things like That is your theory, that is my theory. That could be. Before we go, I wanted to mention my sources. I listened to a podcast from NBC Boston ten called The Karen Read Murder Trial Canton Confidential, and NBC ten give them a lot of credit. They did a great job. They every day they would have like what happened and the testimony and the trial, and it was like kind of a nice way to listen to the trial and only listen to, like, you know, twenty to twenty minutes of it.

1:00:45 Content like that is a really good reason to support local journalism. They do a great job. They did a great job. And also the Boston Globe, which is a great newspaper. We read a lot of newspapers, and we have a subscript into newspapers dot Com, which I recommend. That was a really great resource too, And it's so nice to have a good paper. And there's so much coverage in this case that I am not exaggerating when I said I think I read one hundred articles. Yeah, I believe it, and they did. They did a great job too. So if you want to and you can find the trial. I think the whole trial was televised. I didn't find out about it until it was pretty much over because I'm not sure.

1:01:28 I guess I live under a rock. But you can go back and watch the whole trial. Trial. We're going to talk about the trial next time, But. Like, how many days was the trial? Do you know? It was thirty two? Okay, so it was a lot. Yeah, that's why we're here for three parts. So we'll get to the trial next time, but we're not going to beliebor it. We're just going to kind of touch on some highlights. All right, sounds good. If you would like to listen to part three of this episode right now, join us on Patreon at dot com slash Lovemarykill for five dollars a month. You get early ad free access plus a bonus episode every month. I wanted to thank our friends again in Italy for sending a snack that was again so sweet and generous of you. Please rate, review, follow, and subscribe, find us on social media, or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com and I will be posting a lot of pictures in support of this episode. And until next time, don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband.

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