July 29, 2024

Karen Read and John O'Keefe - Part 2 of 3

Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconYouTube podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconYouTube podcast player icon

The Karen Read murder trial has captivated the country. Karen is accused of hitting her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O’Keefe, in anger after a night of drinking with friends with her Lexus SUV when she dropped him off at a friend’s house, just after midnight on January 29, 2022 as a blizzard slammed the town of Canton, Massachusetts. After the alleged incident, Karen left the scene of the crime. Her defense made the bold claim that the Massachusetts State Police and the Canton Police Department conspired to cover up John’s murder to protect two law enforcement agents, Brian Higgins and Brian Albert and Brian’s 17-year-old nephew Colin Albert. They argued that the trio beat John and left him in the snow to die by planting evidence and coaching witnesses.

Today's snacks: Cheetos Sticks Palitos and Salamini Piccante

Listen to all three parts now by joining us on Patreon.

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:00.440
Hi.

2
00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:02.439
I'm Tina and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing

3
00:00:02.480 --> 00:00:04.679
we've learned in over twenty years of marriage.

4
00:00:04.320 --> 00:00:06.839
It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

5
00:00:06.519 --> 00:00:08.640
And some days you feel like killing your husband.

6
00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:27.039
Welcome to love, Mary Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina.

7
00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:27.760
How are you?

8
00:00:28.120 --> 00:00:29.160
I'm great? How are you?

9
00:00:29.800 --> 00:00:30.359
I'm okay?

10
00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:32.439
Yeah, just okay.

11
00:00:32.759 --> 00:00:33.560
I'm a little tired.

12
00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:34.159
Yeah.

13
00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:36.920
It's a beautiful day here in Michigan, though we have

14
00:00:37.000 --> 00:00:38.759
had a pretty nice summer.

15
00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:40.119
I know, what are we doing inside?

16
00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:43.079
Well, we're yeah, could we do this outside?

17
00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:44.719
I'd love to Probably not.

18
00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:47.079
All our neighbors are mowing their lawns at the same time,

19
00:00:47.159 --> 00:00:49.320
so I guess we really should do it here. But

20
00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:54.759
low humidity, not super hot, don very nice. Yeah, so

21
00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:55.880
you came back for part two.

22
00:00:56.320 --> 00:00:57.960
I came back for the Italian snacks.

23
00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:00.759
I knew I knew it. I knew it. There's four

24
00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:03.000
more snacks in the box, so we'll have two this

25
00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:04.319
time and two next time.

26
00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:07.439
Okay, peaked in the box, I have not peaked.

27
00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:10.280
In the okay. Well, there was one item that I

28
00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:12.519
couldn't help but see what it was, So I will

29
00:01:12.519 --> 00:01:14.760
share that with you now because it's so big.

30
00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:19.280
Oh, this is the cheetos, okay, Italian.

31
00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:21.439
Cheetos, And Sam said these are her favorites. She was

32
00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:24.280
excited to have us try these. Okay, So okay, we've

33
00:01:24.280 --> 00:01:26.560
got cheetos, and then let's see what else do we

34
00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:26.959
have here.

35
00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:30.400
Take your time.

36
00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:33.680
I'm trying not to look in the bies. And we

37
00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:42.200
have oh, salamon, salamoni, like little pecanti, like sausages.

38
00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:44.439
Okay, little uh, a little uh?

39
00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:47.159
What's it called sausages?

40
00:01:47.560 --> 00:01:50.359
I can't think of the day when you have little

41
00:01:50.840 --> 00:01:56.000
little food. It's a French it's a French word for

42
00:01:56.120 --> 00:02:00.519
little food, like little you know, cheese and sausage.

43
00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:03.840
And oh that means little food.

44
00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:05.680
I don't know what it means. I would just that

45
00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:07.079
was the word I was trying to come up with.

46
00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:11.280
Oh, okay, all right, well let's try our salami and

47
00:02:11.319 --> 00:02:20.280
our cheetos. So what did you think of those snacks?

48
00:02:20.520 --> 00:02:21.759
They were both really good.

49
00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:23.960
It's really cool to see packaging that has like no

50
00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:27.879
English on it whatsoever. Yeah, the Cheetos. I don't know

51
00:02:27.919 --> 00:02:31.319
if Sam knew this, but I love cheetos kind of

52
00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:35.080
a guilty pleasure of mine. They're ketchup Cheetos, which is

53
00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:37.199
kind of wild really good.

54
00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:37.800
I didn't.

55
00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:39.479
The texture is so different.

56
00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:41.400
Yeah, I mean, you're more of the Cheetos kind of

57
00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:44.039
swer than I am. I don't know if they were.

58
00:02:44.199 --> 00:02:46.520
Was the flavor that different from regular Cheetos.

59
00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:49.680
Or just yeah, there is definitely a tomato taste, okay. Yeah,

60
00:02:49.719 --> 00:02:52.000
and the little sausages yummy too.

61
00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:52.360
Yeah.

62
00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:55.280
I would give the cheetos night out of ten and

63
00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:56.800
the sausage is eight out of ten.

64
00:02:57.000 --> 00:02:59.319
I was going to say the exact same thing. Really, yeah,

65
00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:01.159
we are in sync, I.

66
00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:05.400
Guess so we don't sing though. No, Well, thanks again

67
00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:07.280
Sam and Tim for the snack. So that was just

68
00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:09.759
above and beyond and we appreciate it so much.

69
00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:10.879
Totally, so fun.

70
00:03:11.960 --> 00:03:14.199
If you haven't listened to part one of Karen Reid,

71
00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:17.680
go back and listen to that first before you dive

72
00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:20.280
into part two. Do you want to read the summary

73
00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:20.919
of part one?

74
00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:23.919
I would love to do that. In the early morning

75
00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:27.120
hours of January twenty ninth, twenty twenty two, forty six

76
00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:30.439
year old Boston police officer John O'Keefe was found dead

77
00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:33.879
by his girlfriend, Karen Reid during a blizzard in front

78
00:03:33.919 --> 00:03:36.800
of the home of a fellow police officer, Brian Albert.

79
00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:39.680
There had been an after party at the Albert's house

80
00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:41.960
after a night of heavy drinking at a local bar.

81
00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:45.199
Karen dropped John off at the party, but he never

82
00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:48.800
made it inside the house, or did he The coroner

83
00:03:48.919 --> 00:03:51.800
ruled the cause of John's death blunt force trauma and

84
00:03:51.919 --> 00:03:56.080
the manner undetermined. His injuries were confusing. He had two

85
00:03:56.159 --> 00:03:59.439
black eyes and lacerations on his face, and a skull

86
00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:04.120
fracture and several deep scratches on his arm. Some investigators

87
00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:07.000
thought his injuries were consistent with being hit by a car.

88
00:04:07.639 --> 00:04:11.120
Witnesses at the crime scene recalled that Karen seemingly confessed

89
00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:13.479
by saying, I hit him several times.

90
00:04:13.800 --> 00:04:16.720
I should have said. There weren't witnesses at the crime scene,

91
00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:20.279
but the next morning when they found John's death, that's

92
00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:22.199
what I'm referring to when I say witnesses.

93
00:04:22.399 --> 00:04:26.160
Right. Karen's Lexus SUV had a broken tail light and

94
00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:29.160
pieces were found at the crime scene. Some of the

95
00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:33.000
investigator's methods were called into questions, such as storing evidence

96
00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:36.040
in red solo cups, using a leaf blower to remove

97
00:04:36.120 --> 00:04:39.160
snow from the scene, failing to search the Albert home,

98
00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:42.399
and not interviewing all of the witnesses from the party.

99
00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:46.199
The dueling theories are that Karen Reid hit John O'Keeffe

100
00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:48.399
with her car in anger after a night of heavy

101
00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:52.240
drinking amidst their two year relationship falling apart. The alternate

102
00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:54.680
theory is that the men at the party beat John

103
00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:57.000
inside the Albert's home and left him out in the

104
00:04:57.000 --> 00:04:57.959
cold to die.

105
00:04:58.360 --> 00:05:00.319
We left off talking about the evidence in the.

106
00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:02.800
Case, right, and some of it as we went through it,

107
00:05:02.839 --> 00:05:05.639
some of it was undisputed, right, things that we knew

108
00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:07.560
for sure, but then there's a lot of things that

109
00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:10.720
are a little bit disputed right where one side interprets

110
00:05:10.759 --> 00:05:13.279
it differently than the other side. And so that's one

111
00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:16.959
of the things that makes this case really complicated, is that.

112
00:05:17.079 --> 00:05:19.680
There's evidence to support the two theories that we had

113
00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:23.680
talked about. Exactly to make things even more confusing, Karen's

114
00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:26.319
version of events on the night of January twenty eighth

115
00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:30.240
were inconsistent. She initially had told Jen McKay that she

116
00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:34.319
last saw John at the Waterfall Bar and Grill and

117
00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:36.639
they'd gotten into a fight, and that she didn't remember

118
00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:39.879
dropping him off at the after party. She didn't feel well,

119
00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:43.199
so she went back to John's house. Kaylee, John's niece,

120
00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:46.480
was witnessed to several calls that Karen made and confirmed

121
00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:50.360
her story was inconsistent and changed depending on who she

122
00:05:50.439 --> 00:05:54.279
talked to. After John's death, Karen stayed with her parents

123
00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:56.360
for a couple of days. So I had said in

124
00:05:56.439 --> 00:05:59.680
the first part that they had taken her to the

125
00:05:59.720 --> 00:06:03.480
Hotpe hospital to have a psychiatric evaluation. She must not

126
00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:05.600
have stayed more than a few hours. I think she

127
00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:09.319
must have calmed down and gotten herself under control, and

128
00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:12.120
then she was released, and think her parents picked her up,

129
00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:15.480
so she stayed with them. Karen was overwhelmed with grief

130
00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:18.839
and confusion. She returned to her home in Braintree. On

131
00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:22.920
February first, twenty twenty two. That evening, at about seven pm,

132
00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:26.439
a dozen police vehicles pulled up to her house. I

133
00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:28.759
don't know why they needed a dozen, but she was

134
00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:32.279
cuffed and arrested for John O'Keefe's murder. After her arrest,

135
00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:36.399
she hired local attorney David Hyannetti. Karen was charged with

136
00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:40.959
vehicular manslaughter, negligent motor vehicle homicide, and leaving the scene

137
00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:45.199
of a collision causing injury or death vehicular manslaughter carries

138
00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:47.959
a sentence of five to twenty years and up to

139
00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:51.160
ten years for leaving the scene of a crime and

140
00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:54.759
the loss of your driver's license. Karen's parents, brother, and

141
00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:58.120
sister in law attended her arraignment. She was released after

142
00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:01.079
spending the night in jail. Her father posted a fifty

143
00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:05.560
thousand dollars cash bail. Her attorney, David Yannetti, said quote,

144
00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:08.800
I am disappointed in the rush to judgment against my client.

145
00:07:09.160 --> 00:07:12.759
My client has shown no criminal intent. She loved this man,

146
00:07:13.160 --> 00:07:16.199
she is devastated. She is innocent, and that will come

147
00:07:16.199 --> 00:07:16.959
out at trial.

148
00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:20.360
Does seem like quite a rush to arrest someone only

149
00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:22.639
like what two days later. I mean, usually they take

150
00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:24.639
their time and make sure that they have all the

151
00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:26.839
evidence and all the testing done so exactly.

152
00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:30.600
She was interviewed, but I don't think it was, you know,

153
00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:35.399
like a really long, thorough interview. On June ninth, twenty

154
00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:38.920
twenty two, Karen was arrested again and charged with second

155
00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:42.000
degree murder and forced to put up another one hundred

156
00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:45.959
thousand dollars in bail, although the prosecutors monitor bail originally

157
00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:49.360
said at five hundred thousand dollars. She pleaded not guilty.

158
00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:53.319
During the second arraignment, Yanetti said he quote had grave

159
00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:57.600
concerns about the ethics of this investigation, and he wasn't wrong.

160
00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:01.439
The maximum sentence for a secondaryear is life in prison

161
00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:05.920
with the possibility of parole. In September twenty twenty two,

162
00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:10.560
Karen hired another attorney, Alan Jackson, who dramatically changed the

163
00:08:10.600 --> 00:08:15.120
course of her defense strategy. He and Yanetti developed a

164
00:08:15.160 --> 00:08:18.800
third party culprit defense. Do you know what that is? Uh?

165
00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:18.959
Not?

166
00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:19.319
Really?

167
00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:22.600
A third party culprit defense is a legal strategy used

168
00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:26.399
by defendants and criminal trials to introduce evidence suggesting that

169
00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:30.160
someone else, not the defendant in this case, Karen Reid,

170
00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:34.679
committed the crime. This defense aims to create reasonable doubt

171
00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:36.919
in the minds of the jury about the defendant's guild

172
00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:41.360
by pointing to another potential suspect or suspects. Karen's lawyers

173
00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:45.039
built their defense strategy around the Massachusetts State Police and

174
00:08:45.080 --> 00:08:49.480
the Canton Police Department conspiring against her. They alleged the

175
00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:53.320
police were complicit in assisting Brian Albert, Brian Higgins and

176
00:08:53.399 --> 00:08:56.039
Colin Albert in covering up the assault and murder of

177
00:08:56.120 --> 00:08:59.759
John O'Keefe at the alberts home. In just a minute,

178
00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:02.519
where to get into the characters involved in the case,

179
00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:05.399
and I'll tell you a little bit more about the

180
00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:09.320
Brians and Colin. Alan Jackson said, quote. This case has

181
00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:13.159
been very clearly infected with personal relationships and conflicts of

182
00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:16.320
interests and cover ups, and we intend to shed as

183
00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:19.600
much light as possible on it to stop this very

184
00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:25.000
obviously compromised prosecution in its tracks. There are serious questions

185
00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:28.240
as to the objectivity and veracity of the police investigation

186
00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:32.399
that has been conducted to date. I think that Jackson

187
00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:36.440
was referring to Massachusetts State Trooper Michael Proctor, and we're

188
00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:39.759
going to get to Proctor in a minute. Karen Read's

189
00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:42.480
lawyers argued in a pre trial hearing that her indictment

190
00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:45.399
should be thrown out because the grand jury was misled

191
00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:50.039
by the Norfolk County District attorney. Quote. A majority of

192
00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:52.960
the witnesses who testified before the grand jury were not

193
00:09:53.080 --> 00:09:56.240
precipient witnesses to any of the events in question, and

194
00:09:56.320 --> 00:09:59.759
were instead called for the purpose of testifying to remote

195
00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:04.320
an irrelevant, bad character and propensity evidence, prejudicing the jury

196
00:10:04.360 --> 00:10:07.960
against Miss Reid, misleading the grand jury, confusing the issues

197
00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:11.399
and wasting time. To be clear, not a single witness

198
00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:15.559
testified that they had observed, miss read strike O'Keefe with

199
00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:18.799
her vehicle, injure him in any way, or otherwise drive

200
00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:22.840
erradically on the night in question. The federal investigators hired

201
00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:26.679
independent of us, we had no idea and independent of

202
00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:32.159
the Commonwealth, hired a professional reconstructionist and three PhDs to

203
00:10:32.279 --> 00:10:36.399
look into exactly this issue. Did Karen Reid's SUV make

204
00:10:36.480 --> 00:10:39.799
contact with John O'Keeffe and their conclusion to a person

205
00:10:40.279 --> 00:10:44.039
was his injuries were inconsistent with damage on the car.

206
00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:47.519
The damage on the car was inconsistent with having made

207
00:10:47.639 --> 00:10:51.480
contact with John O'Keeffe's body. In other words, the car

208
00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:54.519
didn't hit him and he wasn't hit by the car

209
00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:58.879
end quote. So the nugget that I wanted you to

210
00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:00.759
take away from that quote was when he said the

211
00:11:00.799 --> 00:11:05.320
federal investigators hired independent of us. There is a federal

212
00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:10.600
investigation into this case, and he wants people to know that.

213
00:11:10.759 --> 00:11:14.279
And the federal investigators their findings are different than the

214
00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:16.279
findings that the police.

215
00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:17.679
Had, Okay, very interesting.

216
00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:21.440
They argue that the evidence in the case is circumstantial.

217
00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:24.519
There are no eye witnesses to Karen Reid hitting John O'Keeffe.

218
00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:27.480
The Grand Juri was not told that the coroner found

219
00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:31.919
John's cause of death to be undetermined, but Judge Beverly

220
00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:36.679
Conone declined to dismiss the charges against Karen. Now, we're

221
00:11:36.679 --> 00:11:38.639
going to talk a little bit about the people involved

222
00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:40.519
in the case that we've been talking about. It's going

223
00:11:40.559 --> 00:11:42.120
to dive a little deeper and tell you a little

224
00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:45.120
bit more about them. Okay, We'll start with Michael Proctor,

225
00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:48.960
who is a Massachusetts state trooper and was the lead

226
00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:53.080
investigator in the case. He is a polarizing figure. He

227
00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:55.320
has been accused of covering up the murder of John

228
00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:58.720
O'Keeffe and sharing details of the case with family members

229
00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:03.320
and friends, which of course, compromised the investigation. Karen Reid's

230
00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:06.320
defense claims that he has close personal ties to several

231
00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:09.320
people involved in the case. He is friends with Brian

232
00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:13.600
Albert and his sister Courtney is friends with Julie Albert

233
00:12:14.039 --> 00:12:17.480
and Kevin Albert. One of Brian's brothers is a Canton

234
00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:20.840
police officer and they have worked together. We're going to

235
00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:23.879
get back to Julie Albert in a minute. Assistant DA

236
00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:29.360
Adam Lanley said, quote, any relationship is ancillary tangential at best.

237
00:12:29.879 --> 00:12:32.360
The DA claimed that they had vetted all of their

238
00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:38.240
witnesses and didn't find any conflicts of interest. A lot

239
00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:39.879
of overlap.

240
00:12:40.039 --> 00:12:42.840
Yeah, well so coincidentally, the case that I am currently

241
00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:47.000
working on is also about a Massachusetts police officer the

242
00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:51.039
other side of the state, and in his case, the

243
00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:53.960
investigators immediately said, we need to have the state police

244
00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:56.799
take over this investigation because we can't have any appearance

245
00:12:56.840 --> 00:13:00.000
of conflict of interest. So they handled it the exact

246
00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:03.559
right way. This sounds like, assuming these relationships are true,

247
00:13:04.120 --> 00:13:05.919
that this is completely wrong.

248
00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:10.840
Well, Proctor was a state police officer, though, so is

249
00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:14.519
that oh kind of yeah. The Proctor has been criticized

250
00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:17.440
for not recusing himself from the investigation because some of

251
00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:20.559
the people involved our friends and acquaintances. He admitted in

252
00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:23.320
court that he was friends with Nicole and Brian Albert,

253
00:13:23.679 --> 00:13:26.799
the owners of the home. The Boston Herald reported that

254
00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:30.000
a friend of Proctor texted him quote, I'm sure the

255
00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:34.519
owner of the house will receive some shit. Proctor texted back, Nope,

256
00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:36.879
homeowner is to Boston cop too.

257
00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:42.440
He should have recused himself. I have no doubt about that.

258
00:13:42.679 --> 00:13:46.000
Yeah, Proctor did not interview Brian Albert, a key witness,

259
00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:49.840
until six months after O'Keefe's death. And I think there

260
00:13:49.879 --> 00:13:53.440
was a case of several other witnesses too. They weren't interviewed,

261
00:13:53.559 --> 00:13:54.279
you know, right.

262
00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:56.480
After the court. They arrested her two days after his death,

263
00:13:56.519 --> 00:14:00.759
and they didn't interview for six months, okay.

264
00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:03.919
And they all should have been interviewed immediately. Proctor has

265
00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:08.120
made derogatory and sexist remarks against Karen Reid. His phone

266
00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:12.279
was seized and his text messages revealed misogynistic and biased opinions.

267
00:14:12.679 --> 00:14:15.519
He referred to her as a whack job, called her

268
00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:19.320
a see you next Tuesday, a retard, and said she

269
00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:24.120
leaks pooh. She remembered she had like she has crones

270
00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:26.279
disease and she had a clause to me back, so

271
00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:30.399
just so wow gross. He said she's a babe, but

272
00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:37.120
has a weird fall River accent though no ass which okay. Yeah.

273
00:14:37.240 --> 00:14:41.559
He texted his sister hopefully she kills herself, referring to Karen.

274
00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:46.039
In another text, he said no nudes so far, No nudes,

275
00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:49.000
no nudes. He texted his big group of friends, no

276
00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:54.120
duds so far, he sent inappropriate texts to coworkers and supervisors,

277
00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:58.200
which to me indicates a pervasive attitude of misogyny and

278
00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:03.000
unprofessionalism among his peers. His superiors even liked some of

279
00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:04.279
the inappropriate texts.

280
00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:04.679
Wow.

281
00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:09.039
Attorney Stara Romer told NBC News quote, I have never

282
00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:12.919
seen this kind of appearance of impropriety. I am sure

283
00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:15.639
that this happens every day. The difference between this case

284
00:15:15.679 --> 00:15:18.840
and other cases is that generally, the detectives going home

285
00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.879
and talking to whoever about a case, they're not talking

286
00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:24.440
about it with people who know the people that are

287
00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:29.000
involved in the case and our potential suspects. Michael Practor

288
00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:31.480
is also involved in the case of Brian Walsh, who

289
00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:35.399
remains in a Massachusetts jail accused of murdering his wife

290
00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:38.720
Anna on New Year's Day twenty twenty three. Remember we

291
00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:42.639
covered that case a while back. Now that Practor's credibility

292
00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:46.000
is under scrutiny, it could potentially affect the Walsh case.

293
00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:50.639
To this guy's like, you can't you can't trust anything,

294
00:15:50.679 --> 00:15:51.200
he said.

295
00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:53.240
Oh yeah, that's the problem in these situations, right. If

296
00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:56.759
somebody in that position of authority is saying stuff like this,

297
00:15:57.159 --> 00:16:01.080
it calls into question every case he's investigated, and if.

298
00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:04.120
You're an investigator, you keep your mouth shut. You can

299
00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:08.360
tell people about what you're investigating. An internal affairs investigation

300
00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:11.559
was opened in March twenty twenty four to determine whether

301
00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:16.080
Michael Proctor's actions potentially violated department policy. I'm pretty sure

302
00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:19.919
they did. The case is also under federal investigation. Practor

303
00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:23.080
remained a full time officer while the investigation was ongoing.

304
00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:26.720
The defense was not allowed to mention the federal probe

305
00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:29.960
during the trial. On September twenty fifth, twenty twenty three,

306
00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:33.799
a picture was taken of Jen McCabe's car outside of

307
00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:34.639
Proctor's home.

308
00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:35.080
Oh.

309
00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:38.440
They claim it was just to discuss the harassment they

310
00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:40.679
were both receiving from the media and the public.

311
00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:44.720
That's a little odd. Why need it at home? That

312
00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:45.720
doesn't make any sense.

313
00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:49.720
Ryan Albert is an ex marine who fought in Desert

314
00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:53.960
Storm and a trained MMA fighter. He has six siblings,

315
00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:56.519
so that's why there's so many Alberts in this story.

316
00:16:56.600 --> 00:16:59.960
In twenty thirteen, he appeared on a TNT television series

317
00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:04.000
is called Boston's Finest. He and John O'Keeffe were both

318
00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:08.079
Boston police officers, but had never worked directly together. Bought

319
00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:13.359
the Boston Police Department employees over two thousand officers. Bryan

320
00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:16.079
and his wife Nicole didn't know John O'Keeffe well and

321
00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:19.519
had never met Karen before the night of January twenty eighth.

322
00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:22.799
Bryan Albert said, quote, although I didn't know him well,

323
00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.599
I considered him to be a friend. I considered him

324
00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:27.759
somebody that I could hang out with and have a

325
00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:32.160
good time with. Nicole's sister, Jennifer McCabe, invited John and

326
00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:35.400
Karen back to Brian and Nichole's house. Jennifer knew Karen

327
00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:38.720
and John because her daughter was good friends with John's niece, Kayley.

328
00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:42.880
Their son, Brian Junior, was celebrating his twenty third birthday

329
00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:45.680
at their home that night with a few friends. They

330
00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:48.400
were hanging out listening to music and dancing, so the

331
00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:51.759
older people were at the bar and grill until Brian

332
00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:56.559
Junior was at home about midnight. Brian Senior and Nicole

333
00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:59.440
wanted to go back home to celebrate with their son,

334
00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:02.279
and that's when they invited the group from the Waterfall

335
00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:05.599
to go back to their house. Are you following so far?

336
00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:06.599
I think so. Yeah.

337
00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:10.799
Bryan's brother, Chris and his wife Julie Albert own and

338
00:18:10.880 --> 00:18:13.599
operate a pizza shop in Canton called D and E

339
00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:18.480
Pizza and Subs. They've recently been flooded with bad reviews.

340
00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:22.680
Chris is also a town selectmen in Canton. They, along

341
00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:26.160
with their son Colin, lived two doors down from John O'Keefe.

342
00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:30.039
John was particular about his lawn and had on occasion

343
00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:33.599
yelled at Colin and his friends to stay off his lawn.

344
00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:37.440
The Alberts jokingly referred to John as never Cracker, a

345
00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:41.279
character from the animated movie Monster House who is obsessed

346
00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:41.960
with his lawn.

347
00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:51.799
Ah, my lawner, do you want to regain alive.

348
00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:54.160
Over?

349
00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:56.839
That movie has a place in my heart because her

350
00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:00.319
son watched it approximately a thousand times he was a

351
00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:05.079
little kid. Nevercracker was how John's contact information appeared in

352
00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:08.359
their phones. On the night of January twenty eighth, Chris

353
00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:11.400
wanted Karen and John to join the group at the waterfall.

354
00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:15.240
He jokingly texted John quote, get over here, or I'll

355
00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:18.839
fuck up your lawn. John O'Keeffe had recently talked to

356
00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:21.880
Chris Albert about Colin and his friends throwing beer cans

357
00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:25.680
and bottles in his yard. This, Karen's defense claimed was

358
00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:29.359
the impetus for John's alleged beating. One night, Colin and

359
00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:33.240
his friends triggered John's alarm system. When he confronted the teens,

360
00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:35.759
they told him to go fuck yourself, to which John replied,

361
00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:38.720
get the fuck out of here. The next morning, there

362
00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:42.440
were a dozen cans and bottles in his yard. The

363
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:45.359
Alberts were both adamant that after leaving the waterfall, they

364
00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:49.119
didn't see Karen or John enter the house, although Jen

365
00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:52.119
McCabe claims she saw a dark suv outside of the

366
00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:55.039
house near the driveway. The guests left the house by

367
00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:58.400
two am, and they didn't know that John lay deceased

368
00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:01.799
in their front yard until the next morning, when Jen

369
00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:05.920
came in and woke them up. Jen McCabe is Nicole

370
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:09.119
Albert's sister. Nicole Albert is married to Brian. She's the

371
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:11.880
homeowner of thirty four Affair of You. I just want

372
00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:13.279
to make sure, Yeah, so many people.

373
00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:15.799
Repetition is good for me and I'm sure for the

374
00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:18.759
people listening. So you're with me, I'm with you.

375
00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:21.559
Jennifer and her husband went to the after party and

376
00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:25.559
stayed until about one thirty am. Her cell phone data

377
00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:28.599
implies that she left at exactly one forty seven am.

378
00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:32.279
She and her husband Matt drove two of Brian Junior's

379
00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:35.279
friends home the night of the party. One of the

380
00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:38.119
most intriguing pieces of evidence is in the case is

381
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:41.039
the alleged search made by Jen at two point twenty

382
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:44.160
seven am that you know well, because you've been helping

383
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:46.880
me with this part of the case has longed to

384
00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:49.319
die in the cold, and I'm going to try not

385
00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:51.440
to say has too many times.

386
00:20:51.240 --> 00:20:54.200
Right, It was obviously a typo meant be how long exactly?

387
00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:57.839
The entire case hinges on whether Jen actually made the

388
00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:02.319
search at that time, which remains a subject of debate.

389
00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:04.720
I'm going to get back to that in a minute.

390
00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:09.440
According to Boston Magazine, after Karen's arrest, a tipster contacted

391
00:21:09.559 --> 00:21:13.359
Karen's lawyer, David Yannetti and claimed that Brian Higgins, Brian

392
00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:16.880
Albert and his nephew Colin Albert got into a fight

393
00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:19.480
with John and beat him and then threw him out

394
00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:22.920
into the snow after midnight on January twenty ninth, twenty

395
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:27.480
twenty two. The tipster allegedly said, quote, your client is innocent,

396
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.440
John was beaten up by Brian Albert and his nephew.

397
00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:33.359
They broke his nose, and when O'Keefe didn't come to

398
00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:37.200
Brian and a federal agent meeting Brian Higgins, dumped his

399
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:40.799
body onto the front lawn. Whether it was intentional or

400
00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:43.720
not is in question, but Colin's name was initially left

401
00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:46.079
off the list of people at the Albert's after party.

402
00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:49.240
Many people believe that the massive cover up was to

403
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:53.279
protect Colin, who was seventeen at the time. Colin was

404
00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:56.480
seen with bloody knuckles and has a history of mild violence.

405
00:21:56.920 --> 00:22:00.000
Videos emerged of Colin Albert from high school threatening students

406
00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:02.440
from a rival high school, yelling quote, I'm going to

407
00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:05.599
fuck you up and I will be your asses. There

408
00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:08.240
is no creature more volatile on the planet than a

409
00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:11.200
seventeen year old mail. Yeah, so I don't put a

410
00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:13.799
ton of stock in this, but they're definitely trying to

411
00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:18.079
paint Colins this aggressive guy who likes to fight. Colin

412
00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:20.720
said he never saw John O'Keefe at the Albert home

413
00:22:20.839 --> 00:22:24.160
on the night in question. He said his friend Ali McCabe,

414
00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:28.160
Jen's daughter picked him up just after midnight. Colin left

415
00:22:28.359 --> 00:22:31.920
as his uncle and aunt were getting home. His cell

416
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:34.920
phone records confirmed that he left at that time. Anne

417
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:37.920
was home by twelve thirty am, and in good weather,

418
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:40.680
it's less than a ten minute drive to Colin's house

419
00:22:40.759 --> 00:22:45.079
from the Albert's house. Chris Albert, Collins's father was at

420
00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:47.599
the Waterfall Bar, but didn't go to the after party.

421
00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:50.400
He went straight home. He testified that he got home

422
00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:53.559
no later than twelve ten and Colin was home ten

423
00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:56.519
or fifteen minutes later. I have seen reports though, that

424
00:22:56.599 --> 00:23:00.240
he might have been at the party. Okay, Colin fight

425
00:23:00.240 --> 00:23:02.599
At the trial, He called John a good guy and

426
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:06.599
said there was never any animosity between them, which I

427
00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:09.480
don't know if that's true enough. But if there was animosity,

428
00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:13.920
was it enough to kill him? Karen's attorney, Alan Jackson

429
00:23:13.960 --> 00:23:16.759
showed Colin a picture from February twenty sixth with some

430
00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:19.799
friends and his knuckles appeared to be injured. Colin said

431
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:23.359
the wounds happened after a fall on the ice. Jackson

432
00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:25.480
then asked Colin if his knuckles had been injured when

433
00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:28.920
he'd testified before the grand jury. Colin admitted that they

434
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:32.160
had been. He claimed that he busted them up from

435
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:36.200
boxing on a heavy bag, the insinuation being that Colin

436
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:38.920
fights a lot, but no witnesses came forward to really

437
00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:43.640
corroborate that. So on at least two occasions, Colin was

438
00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:48.839
shown to have you know, kind of injured knuckles. Colin

439
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:51.240
was the ring bearer as a child at the wedding

440
00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:56.160
of Courtney Proctor, investigator Michael Proctor's sister, showing the close

441
00:23:56.200 --> 00:24:01.440
ties of the two families. Canton, Massachusetts, in Norfolk County,

442
00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:05.519
is fifteen minutes southwest of Boston. Canton is like another

443
00:24:05.799 --> 00:24:10.640
character in this story. The population is about twenty four thousand,

444
00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:14.920
and all of them are often this case. Paul Revere

445
00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:18.279
built the nation's first copper rolling mill in Canton in

446
00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:23.200
eighteen oh one. His poem entitled Canton Dale expresses his

447
00:24:23.240 --> 00:24:27.759
affection for the town. Duncan Donuts is headquartered in Canton.

448
00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:30.839
Like so much of our country, the town of Canton

449
00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:34.160
has divided itself into two camps. Those who believe that

450
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:36.759
Karen Read is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of striking

451
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:39.880
John O'Keefe dead with her Alexis, and those who believe

452
00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:43.039
that Karen is a victim of a conspiracy set up

453
00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:46.160
by the local and State Police. The two groups do

454
00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:50.039
not see eye to eye. Obviously, John O'Keefe's death has

455
00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:55.119
fractured the once close knit community, ending friendships and tarnishing reputations.

456
00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:57.720
I just want to go back and talk about Duncan

457
00:24:57.799 --> 00:25:02.119
Donuts for a second, Okay, Oh, here in Detroit, in

458
00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:06.720
the Detroit area, it's all about Tim Horton's.

459
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:10.480
Yeah, I mean, Tim Mortons is Canadian, but we're practically Canadian.

460
00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:12.079
We're right there, so yes.

461
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:15.960
Right, So if you're in Michigan, you're a big Tim

462
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:19.079
Horton's person, not a Duncan Donuts person, Right.

463
00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:20.880
I'm okay with either myself, but.

464
00:25:21.400 --> 00:25:22.200
Donut is a donut.

465
00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:22.640
Sure.

466
00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:25.119
I think I would probably favor Duncan because I'm not

467
00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:28.079
a native of Michigander, which there's probably going to be

468
00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:30.720
people with Cam down her front lawn now with stakes.

469
00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:31.759
And I'll be right there with him.

470
00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:35.799
In November twenty twenty three, Canton residents voted in favor

471
00:25:35.839 --> 00:25:38.880
of paying two hundred thousand dollars to hire an independent

472
00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:42.599
consulting firm to audit the Canton Police Department due to

473
00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:46.119
the ongoing investigation of the Karen Read case. The vote

474
00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:48.799
was passed nine hundred three to eight hundred during a

475
00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:53.359
special town meeting in November. Chris Albert, Brian Albert's brother,

476
00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:57.039
was voted as a Canton Town selectman in April twenty

477
00:25:57.079 --> 00:25:59.759
twenty three. Do you know what a town selectman is?

478
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:03.400
Guessing? It's like a city council type member. Yeah.

479
00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:05.960
It's a member of the town's select board, which serves

480
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:09.400
as the executive branch of government in many New England towns,

481
00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:13.880
particularly in Massachusetts, Maine, and New Hampshire. And if you

482
00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:17.079
watched Gilmore Girls like I, did you know all about

483
00:26:17.079 --> 00:26:21.119
town selectments. Residents called for his resignation, but he is

484
00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:23.759
currently serving the role of clerk, and I believe he

485
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:28.839
still is today. One lifelong Canton resident told Boston Magazine quote,

486
00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:31.759
I only surround myself now with people that I trust.

487
00:26:32.119 --> 00:26:34.640
It's like bringing up Donald Trump at a dinner party.

488
00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:37.839
It could just explode. People don't want people to know

489
00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:41.359
which side they're on because like politics, they don't want

490
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:44.240
to deal with the fallout. The problem with this town

491
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:47.680
is that nobody fucking leaves. Most people in Canton are

492
00:26:47.799 --> 00:26:50.440
turning on each other because they don't like the Albert family,

493
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:53.119
or they're pissed that Chris Albert was elected to the

494
00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:56.759
select board, or they're jealous of Jen from high school

495
00:26:56.839 --> 00:27:00.599
or whatever these stupid bullshit things are. There are these

496
00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:04.519
beefs from high school with these people. End quote. Tensions

497
00:27:04.519 --> 00:27:08.079
were so high that Norfolk County DA Michael Morrissey recorded

498
00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:11.720
a video message, an unprecedented move for a DA. He

499
00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:15.200
referred to evidence that counters much of Karen Reid's alternate

500
00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:18.319
theory and pleaded with the public to stop harassing the

501
00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:22.079
parties involved. He said, quote, it should be an outrage

502
00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:25.480
to any decent person and it needs to stop. Innuendo

503
00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:29.480
is not evidence. False narratives are not evidence. To have

504
00:27:29.559 --> 00:27:32.920
them accused of murder is outrageous. To have them harassed

505
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:36.960
and intimidated based on false narratives and accusations is wrong.

506
00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:40.960
There are witnesses doing what our justice system asks of them.

507
00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:44.000
We try people in court and not on the internet

508
00:27:44.039 --> 00:27:47.400
for a reason. The internet has no rules of evidence,

509
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:51.680
the Internet has no punishment for perjury, and the Internet

510
00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:55.480
does not know all of the facts. End quote.

511
00:27:55.559 --> 00:27:57.160
I think the Internet does know all of it.

512
00:27:58.279 --> 00:28:02.640
I mean they're buried in there somewhere. Canton, Massachusetts reminds

513
00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:04.880
me of a Dennis Lahane novel and I know you've

514
00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:05.960
read some Dennis Lahane.

515
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:08.400
I've read almost all of Dennis Lahane's novels, but I

516
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:11.480
couldn't tell you one from I love his book. It's

517
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:12.200
a really good writer.

518
00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:17.400
They're like Moody and cor Option and yeah, Boston. I

519
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:20.079
don't know the Massachusetts just it's a cool state. And

520
00:28:20.119 --> 00:28:21.160
we're actually gonna.

521
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:22.519
We're going there in a few weeks.

522
00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:26.039
A day and a half there. Yeah, I'm excited. The

523
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:29.599
two Dennis Lahane books I would most recommend our Mystic

524
00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:32.960
River and Shutter Island. Sure Island. Oh my gosh, that's

525
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:34.759
a great, good Halloween book.

526
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:37.359
Right, yeah, great movie, really good adaptation.

527
00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:47.079
We'll be back after a break. During our break, I

528
00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:50.599
had more of the catch up cheetos, and they're really good.

529
00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:54.359
We didn't mention this, but they're more like a veggie straw.

530
00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:55.039
I think they're.

531
00:28:54.920 --> 00:28:58.319
Called almost like a like a square, like a French

532
00:28:58.359 --> 00:28:58.720
fry or.

533
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:04.960
Something different texture than in American cheetos. Williemmy, all right,

534
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:05.759
I'm a turtle boy.

535
00:29:06.440 --> 00:29:09.319
The Karen Reid case has intrigued the world of true crime.

536
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:13.279
TikTokers and YouTubers have been all over the case, none

537
00:29:13.319 --> 00:29:15.839
more than Aiden Kearney, a forty two year old father

538
00:29:15.880 --> 00:29:19.400
of two, also known as Turtle Boy, a citizen journalist,

539
00:29:19.799 --> 00:29:23.119
strong believer in the First Amendment, and top supporter of

540
00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:26.960
Karen Reid. His name comes from the iconic Turtle Boy

541
00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:31.880
statue in Worcester, Massachusetts. The statue, officially known as Turtle

542
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:36.119
Boy Fountain or Burnside Fountain, is a well known local landmark.

543
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:39.039
It's a one hundred year old bronze statue of a

544
00:29:39.079 --> 00:29:42.160
boy in the nude riding a turtle. The work was

545
00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:45.599
commissioned by Harriet Burnside as a memorial to her father,

546
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:49.319
a prominent lawyer, in nineteen o five. She wanted the

547
00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:52.000
piece to be a drinking spot for dogs and horses.

548
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:56.240
Charles Harvey, the designer, died by suicide before the statue

549
00:29:56.319 --> 00:30:00.799
was completed. His assistant, Sherry Edmondson Frye, finish the piece.

550
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:04.880
At its unveiling in nineteen twelve, it received mixed reviews,

551
00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:08.559
but today is a beloved, iconic, whimsical landmark of Worcester.

552
00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:11.799
I'm going to show you a picture of it really quick.

553
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:14.680
When some people see the statue, they say that the

554
00:30:14.759 --> 00:30:17.400
boy might be enjoying the turtle too much.

555
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:20.400
Yes, that was my first reaction on seeing it as well.

556
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:23.720
Looked a little bit questionable, but you know, that's okay.

557
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:26.519
But it's a it's a cute statue and it has

558
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:28.519
a long history. I just gave you like a little

559
00:30:28.519 --> 00:30:30.960
brief part of it. But it used to be a fountain.

560
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:33.599
I believe it is no longer a fountain. At one

561
00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:37.519
point was stolen. Maybe we could go see the statue

562
00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:39.559
when we're in Boston in a few weeks.

563
00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:43.720
We should do that. But back to Turtleboy the journalist. So,

564
00:30:43.799 --> 00:30:47.519
Turtleboy calls himself an entertainer, a journalist, and an activist.

565
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:51.480
Before becoming a blogger and media sensation, Aiden was a

566
00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:55.079
high school history teacher and track coach. He earned himself

567
00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:58.480
a suspension after openly sharing his opinions on sports and

568
00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:02.519
other musings on a now defunct blog called Aiden from Worcester.

569
00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:06.480
Not to be quieted, he quickly began another anonymous blog,

570
00:31:06.519 --> 00:31:10.000
which was the beginning of Turtleboy. In twenty eighteen, he

571
00:31:10.039 --> 00:31:13.759
wrote a memoir called I Am Turtleboy. In his book,

572
00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:17.640
Aiden says his destiny was to be Turtleboy. His mission

573
00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:21.119
is quote exposing hypocrisy, and showing the other side of

574
00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:26.359
whatever story was causing the latest Internet outrage. No stranger

575
00:31:26.359 --> 00:31:30.079
to controversy, He's been sued for libel and defamation nine times,

576
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:33.240
but he is yet to lose a case. In left

577
00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:36.079
leaning Massachusetts, turtle Boy is a breath of fresh air

578
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:41.799
for conservatives. He enjoys skewering liberals. He has personally investigated

579
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:45.720
and broken several stories of corruption in Massachusetts, such as Troopergate,

580
00:31:46.119 --> 00:31:50.039
but his tactics often involve bullying, doxing, and harassment. Along

581
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:54.640
with his followers, Kearney runs a website called tb Daily News.

582
00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:57.839
He believes that Karen Reid was framed by the Boston

583
00:31:57.880 --> 00:32:00.960
Police Department in what he coined the Case Hampton cover Up.

584
00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:04.359
In July twenty twenty three, Turtle Boy, in his new

585
00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:08.480
Lexus and fifty supporters had a rolling road rally. They

586
00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:11.480
drove through the streets of Canton while he live streamed

587
00:32:11.519 --> 00:32:14.519
the two hour parade. The group stopped at the homes

588
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:18.200
of Brian Albert, Michael Proctor, and Jennifer McCabe as Turtle

589
00:32:18.200 --> 00:32:21.559
Boy shouted into a bullhorn at each stop and berated

590
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:23.680
them for their part in the cover up of John

591
00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:27.640
O'Keeffe's murder, He said, quote the people that live right

592
00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:31.720
here are cop killers. Unquote. Their final destination was the

593
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:35.319
Canton Police Department. He once showed up at Jen McCabe's

594
00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:38.920
daughter's lacrosse game and live streamed a confrontation with her.

595
00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:43.000
Hey, Matt, how you doing pal good? How are you doing?

596
00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:45.200
How you doing? Hy Joen? How you doing?

597
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:46.039
Fancy?

598
00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:46.200
Sy?

599
00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:46.720
And you here?

600
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:49.319
How are you all right?

601
00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:50.599
So? How did cork go the other day?

602
00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:52.799
Sorry? The child on the team?

603
00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:54.759
Do you I do? Now?

604
00:32:54.759 --> 00:32:56.200
I'm at a public event, so I can do whatever

605
00:32:56.200 --> 00:32:57.920
I want. So anyway, So John, I have a question.

606
00:32:58.039 --> 00:33:01.039
Did you think that you could outsmart Karen read? Did

607
00:33:01.079 --> 00:33:04.759
you do you think that's funny? Do you think that's funny?

608
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:07.559
How long did I and cold? What does this gentleman doing?

609
00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:08.000
Look at that?

610
00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:12.000
The readA Hey, Jen, are you worried about what's gonna happen.

611
00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:12.960
To your family? Mom to jail?

612
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:13.680
Don't touch me?

613
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:15.240
Why are you shaking it again?

614
00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:16.160
Why do you shake again?

615
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:17.119
Touch me again?

616
00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:17.359
Jen?

617
00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:19.319
Are you worried about what's gonna happen when your kids

618
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:22.079
go to jail? When you go to jail, I apologize

619
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:24.119
to your children? Are you worried at all about that?

620
00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:26.599
Huh huh? What's going on here?

621
00:33:26.680 --> 00:33:29.279
Are you so fans? I sure you are?

622
00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:31.440
Jen? Did you think that you could outsmart Karen read

623
00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:34.480
yes or no? Did you? Why did you google how

624
00:33:34.519 --> 00:33:35.240
long to die in cole?

625
00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:35.559
Jen?

626
00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:38.000
Why did you google how long to die in cold?

627
00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:39.279
Jens d it.

628
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:43.519
Some of turtle Boy's followers have sent harassing messages to

629
00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:47.720
Jen McCabe, telling her to kill herself. Aiden was arrested

630
00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:50.720
in October twenty twenty three on eight counts of harassing

631
00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:54.039
witnesses and one count of conspiracy in which a police

632
00:33:54.039 --> 00:33:58.839
dispatcher gave him officer's license numbers. He pleaded not guilty

633
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:02.039
and was ordered to stay away from the witnesses. He

634
00:34:02.119 --> 00:34:05.880
wore a free Karen Reid hoodie to his arraignment. He

635
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:09.280
was arrested again in December twenty twenty three for multiple

636
00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:13.840
counts of witness intimidation. Also in December, an ex girlfriend

637
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:16.880
served him with a restraining order. He was held in

638
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:19.960
custody for two months until he was released in February

639
00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:23.960
twenty twenty four. He has staged protests outside the homes

640
00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:26.719
of some of the parties involved in the case. Accusing

641
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:29.639
them of covering up the murder of John O'Keefe. He's

642
00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:32.840
sold merchandise and written hundreds of articles on the case.

643
00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:38.239
Again. His website is tbdailynews dot com, and it's kind

644
00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:41.639
of a shocking amount of work that he has done.

645
00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:43.719
He writes a lot of articles. And when I say

646
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:48.519
that he has merchandise, he has. He has a lot

647
00:34:48.519 --> 00:34:51.679
of merchandise. Yes, he has so many tea shirts summer

648
00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:54.519
Karen Reade. Some of them are just Massachusetts things. But

649
00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:57.199
I think turtle Boy is doing well for himself.

650
00:34:57.280 --> 00:35:01.079
Okay. On his YouTube channel, he said, quote with the

651
00:35:01.159 --> 00:35:04.400
O'Keefe's enough of the fucking pity party for these fucking people.

652
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:07.000
The only good part about John not being alive is

653
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:09.519
that he doesn't have to be around you useless maggots

654
00:35:09.559 --> 00:35:12.480
for a second more. Fuck you, fuck your high horse,

655
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:15.400
burn in hell. The beauty of Turtle Boys that I

656
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:18.840
can do things in an unconventional manner that other journalists

657
00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:21.679
are restricted from doing. I love being the center of

658
00:35:21.719 --> 00:35:24.880
attention and being theatrical and performing. This is what I

659
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:27.800
was made to do. Unquote. I could see that he

660
00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:33.280
seems to have a pretty honest assessment of himself. With

661
00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:35.760
his work on the Karen Reid trial, Turtle Boy has

662
00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:39.199
gained a new level of fame beyond Massachusetts state lines.

663
00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:42.800
Aiden has not only earned fame, but fortune too. According

664
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:46.159
to Boston Magazine, since his coverage of the Karen Reid case,

665
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:49.360
his monthly income has ballooned to as high as fifty

666
00:35:49.400 --> 00:35:52.599
thousand dollars a month. He has been very vocal about

667
00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:55.800
what he believes is a statewide conspiracy covering up the

668
00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:59.559
death of John O'Keefe. Aiden, Kearney, and Karen Reid have

669
00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:02.320
had one hundred and eighty nine phone calls between them,

670
00:36:02.360 --> 00:36:06.639
totaling forty hours over seven months. Karen allegedly fed him

671
00:36:06.679 --> 00:36:11.119
confidential information. Kierny has sat with the press during the trial,

672
00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:13.239
but he is not allowed to get within one hundred

673
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:16.760
feet of the witnesses that he has harassed. The prosecution

674
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:19.760
denies that Turtle Boy is a journalist and called him

675
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:24.079
an activist, although he does have press credentials. He told

676
00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:27.599
Boston Magazine quote, I've been maligned in the media as

677
00:36:27.639 --> 00:36:30.400
some sort of vulgar bad person, but I like to

678
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:33.800
think that with the Karen Reid story, I've rebranded. When

679
00:36:33.800 --> 00:36:35.840
I look back ten years from now at this Karen

680
00:36:35.880 --> 00:36:38.559
Reid thing. It's something that my kids can be proud

681
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:41.280
of because I stood by my principles and I stood

682
00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:44.159
up for an innocent woman and against a corrupt system.

683
00:36:44.320 --> 00:36:47.920
Ut all this to say that Aiden Kearney has a

684
00:36:47.960 --> 00:36:51.199
lot of influence over his followers who show up for him,

685
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:54.440
and without his coverage, this case would not have gotten

686
00:36:54.440 --> 00:36:56.719
the interest and the media coverage that it has.

687
00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:00.960
One problem with Turtle Boy is he not maintain his

688
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:05.079
neutrality and as a journalist, that's critical, right.

689
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:08.519
I mean there's journalism and there is opinion. Right Like

690
00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:11.239
if you look at any newspaper, there's there's articles that

691
00:37:11.320 --> 00:37:14.440
are news, articles that are supposed to be factual and

692
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:18.039
impartial and objective, and then there are op ed pieces

693
00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:20.599
which are opinions. And it seems like he is more

694
00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:22.920
of an op ed journalist.

695
00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:27.360
But he really has changed the trajectory of the case

696
00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:30.559
and got it, in my opinion, a lot more attention

697
00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:33.360
that it otherwise would happen. Yeah, he was part of

698
00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:36.920
the feeding frenzy. I wanted us to have a conversation

699
00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:39.480
about some of the problems with the case, some of

700
00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:44.880
the issues and the investigation messy police work. And there's

701
00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:47.320
a lot of kind of messy things that happened, right with.

702
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:50.360
The red cups and the leaf blower.

703
00:37:50.559 --> 00:37:53.320
Well, in some of the things, I think the police

704
00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:56.400
had to be adaptable.

705
00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:57.400
Because of the middle of the snowstorm.

706
00:37:57.639 --> 00:37:59.159
I mean, it wasn't a snow it was a blizzard.

707
00:37:59.239 --> 00:38:02.039
It was windy and this, you know, and they didn't

708
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:04.519
know if the evidence was blowing everywhere. So you have

709
00:38:04.599 --> 00:38:07.119
to give them, I think, a little bit of leeway

710
00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:09.519
with that. They you know, the leaf flower it was

711
00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:12.679
not something that typically would be done, but some people

712
00:38:12.679 --> 00:38:14.519
were like, you know, they did a good job. They

713
00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:16.960
were careful with it. It didn't get out of hand.

714
00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:20.400
Not interviewing key witnesses for six months until six months

715
00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:23.679
after the fact, that that to me is very sloppy.

716
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:27.239
Right, Yeah, The words Karen allegedly uttered, I hit him

717
00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:30.920
weren't in the official report, and the way police work works,

718
00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:34.840
if it's not in the report, it's like it didn't happen.

719
00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:35.199
Right.

720
00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:38.320
It's interesting though, So the word the words that she

721
00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:42.599
allegedly uttered, I hit him, that came from a few

722
00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:46.320
different people, right, like the like the paramedics, I think, right,

723
00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:50.320
and some of the k or and Jeffer McKay.

724
00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:54.719
Several people did hear her say not necessarily hit him.

725
00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:57.760
Some people were like, thought that she said, did I

726
00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:01.119
hit him? Could I have hit him? So different variations

727
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:03.639
of I hit him. But even if she said I

728
00:39:03.719 --> 00:39:06.280
hit him, I hit him, I hit him, it wasn't

729
00:39:06.280 --> 00:39:09.719
a confession. She didn't sign it. You know, she was upset,

730
00:39:09.840 --> 00:39:13.599
she was hysterical, she loved the man, and.

731
00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:16.320
She could have been talking about I hit him like

732
00:39:16.360 --> 00:39:18.239
when they were they had a fight earlier or something

733
00:39:18.320 --> 00:39:20.320
like that too. Like we don't know exactly what she meant.

734
00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:22.519
But the fact that it wasn't in the police record,

735
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:27.079
I'm assuming these witnesses told the police about this.

736
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:29.360
And they didn't and they failed to write it.

737
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:30.400
And she's definitely sloppy.

738
00:39:31.239 --> 00:39:34.320
The fact that the investigators never went into the Albert's.

739
00:39:33.880 --> 00:39:35.920
Home, Yeah, I think that's a big, big mistake.

740
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:37.920
I think they may have gone in just like to

741
00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:40.960
have a conversation, like a thirty minute conversation, but it

742
00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:44.559
wasn't an official interview, and they didn't go down to

743
00:39:44.599 --> 00:39:51.159
the basement. Right Chloe the dog was rehomed and as

744
00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:53.480
far as I know, we don't know where she is okay,

745
00:39:53.719 --> 00:39:56.800
and that wasn't really followed up on. Okay, And they'd

746
00:39:56.840 --> 00:39:58.800
had Chloe for several years and then all of a

747
00:39:58.840 --> 00:40:02.760
sudden she was gone. That's kind of an emotional thing

748
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:05.960
to re home your dog send her to a different state.

749
00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:07.440
Do you think that's suspicious, I mean, it.

750
00:40:07.400 --> 00:40:10.239
Definitely seems strange, so I would I would definitely want

751
00:40:10.280 --> 00:40:11.679
to look into it if I was a cop. It

752
00:40:11.719 --> 00:40:14.679
may be nothing suspicious about it, but it's certainly something

753
00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:15.880
I would want to know about.

754
00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:20.039
There was a time that Karen's car was left unprotected,

755
00:40:20.840 --> 00:40:24.239
so it could have been tampered with. On January twenty ninth,

756
00:40:24.320 --> 00:40:28.199
Karen's car, her Lexus, was seized from the driveway of

757
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:32.039
her parents' house by a towing company at four to

758
00:40:32.119 --> 00:40:36.039
twelve pm and it was towed back to Diamond Towing

759
00:40:36.599 --> 00:40:40.280
At five point thirty pm. The police picked up her

760
00:40:40.320 --> 00:40:43.280
car from the towing company and then they took it

761
00:40:43.320 --> 00:40:46.159
to their forensics lage. Yeah, so for more than an

762
00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:48.840
hour it probably sat there unprotected.

763
00:40:48.360 --> 00:40:50.760
Which is a problem with chain of custody and all

764
00:40:50.760 --> 00:40:51.519
that kind of thing.

765
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:54.800
And the crime scene. The space in front of the

766
00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:58.559
Albert's house wasn't security either. Okay, and remember, you know,

767
00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:02.440
like the pieces of the tail light were found on

768
00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:04.760
a couple of other occasions, not just the day of

769
00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:07.880
the crime. Yep, this part is confusing. But there's a

770
00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:11.440
video of Karen's car once it was in police custody

771
00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:15.159
that was played at the trial, and the video is inverted, okay,

772
00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:15.960
so it.

773
00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:17.760
Sort of made it look like the driver's side was

774
00:41:17.800 --> 00:41:19.400
the fastener side and vice versa.

775
00:41:19.480 --> 00:41:22.280
Okay, looks as if someone was trying to tamper with

776
00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:23.760
the video. I don't know if it was just an

777
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:28.800
honest mistake, it seems suspicious. The butt dials. There's been

778
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:31.920
at least nine butt dials or people people refer to

779
00:41:31.960 --> 00:41:35.840
as butt dials. And you know, ages ago, when we

780
00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:38.320
got our first cell phones, butt dials happened all the time.

781
00:41:38.440 --> 00:41:40.519
But it was so embarrassing because you'd call like your

782
00:41:40.599 --> 00:41:43.559
doctor's office by accident and they'd be hello, hello, and you.

783
00:41:43.480 --> 00:41:46.119
Know, being your car singing along with an abbatoon and

784
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:47.519
everyone we'd be hearing you. Yeah.

785
00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:50.400
But in twenty twenty four, I know, we have.

786
00:41:50.360 --> 00:41:54.440
Lock screens, we have security codes, we have face.

787
00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:59.480
Yeah, it just doesn't happen. So to have nine unaccounted.

788
00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:01.760
For all in the same night with multiple different people, right.

789
00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:04.039
I know we talked about it people involved in the case.

790
00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:06.760
So yeah, that seems a little bit shady.

791
00:42:07.039 --> 00:42:10.079
There was a ring camera at John O'Keefe's house, and

792
00:42:10.239 --> 00:42:13.079
some of the footage seems to be missing. Oh okay,

793
00:42:13.239 --> 00:42:16.199
but I've also heard that, you know, it was a blizzard.

794
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:18.400
We can't forget that there was a blizzard, right that.

795
00:42:18.679 --> 00:42:22.679
During bad weather sometimes the footage just isn't available. That's

796
00:42:22.719 --> 00:42:26.119
so it could just be a coincidence. Brian Albert and

797
00:42:26.159 --> 00:42:30.119
Brian Higgins both destroyed their phones before they were sent

798
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:32.239
a preservation notice for their data.

799
00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:35.000
That doesn't look suspicious at all. Wow.

800
00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:37.400
And I'm not sure of the exact date, but I

801
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:41.400
think it was September twenty third their phones were we'll

802
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:43.239
talk about this moren whom we get to the trial.

803
00:42:43.639 --> 00:42:49.800
Higgins destroyed his phone, where Brian Albert upgraded his phone. Okay,

804
00:42:49.960 --> 00:42:52.400
but the day before that they had the notice that

805
00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:53.960
they needed to turn their phones over.

806
00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:56.239
Yeah, that seems a little bit strange. Absolutely, have they

807
00:42:56.280 --> 00:42:57.960
given any explanation for that?

808
00:42:58.920 --> 00:43:01.519
Yes, we'll get to that a little. I mean, well,

809
00:43:01.639 --> 00:43:04.360
Brian Albert said, oh, it was just time for an upgrade.

810
00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:06.159
If you upgrade your phone, you don't lose all your

811
00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:09.519
data unless you intentionally as.

812
00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:12.800
If men and women act differently when they upgrade their phone.

813
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:15.920
Because as a woman, I want everything. I want all

814
00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:18.480
my pictures, I want all my texts pretty much. Yeah,

815
00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:20.239
once in a great while, I'm like, yeah, And it

816
00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:23.360
always feels when I go and delete all my texts,

817
00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:26.000
which I don't do very often, but every year or

818
00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:28.320
so I'll do it. But I think men are less

819
00:43:28.360 --> 00:43:30.880
likely to save photos? Are you more likely to put

820
00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:33.400
them on your computer? And I don't know.

821
00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:36.639
I don't know if there's any pattern between genders on

822
00:43:36.679 --> 00:43:37.039
that one.

823
00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:40.000
But as Brian Higgins said, I'm divorced, I don't have

824
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:42.679
any kids. I didn't have any pictures I wanted to

825
00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:46.000
save on my phone. And it might be just that,

826
00:43:46.280 --> 00:43:49.960
you know, for privacy reasons too. It's not necessarily nefarious.

827
00:43:50.840 --> 00:43:55.000
It sounds very suspicious though. Yeah, I wouldn't want to.

828
00:43:55.159 --> 00:43:57.679
I really wouldn't want to. I'm the most boring person ever,

829
00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:00.679
but I wouldn't want to turn my text over for sure.

830
00:44:01.639 --> 00:44:04.480
The flooring that was changed in the basement, that's suspicious.

831
00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:08.719
One more thing about John's ring camera. It registered fifteen

832
00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:13.079
events between six pm on January twenty eighth and six

833
00:44:13.079 --> 00:44:16.079
am the next morning. Yet there is no video of

834
00:44:16.159 --> 00:44:18.280
Karen returning back to the house that night, and we

835
00:44:18.360 --> 00:44:22.559
know she did okay, so there was probably some glitch.

836
00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:25.880
But again, yeah, snowstorm could have obscured the camera maybe

837
00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:26.719
when she returned.

838
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:29.159
We talked about this a little bit. But also we

839
00:44:29.239 --> 00:44:32.039
need to note that federal prosecutors have taken the highly

840
00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:35.679
unusual step of launching a grand jury investigation into the

841
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:39.440
state law enforcement's handling of the John O'Keeffe case. According

842
00:44:39.480 --> 00:44:42.760
to The Boston Globe, this investigation has been ongoing for

843
00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:45.920
at least a year. All twelve people who were at

844
00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:48.440
the Elbert's house on the night of January twenty eighth

845
00:44:48.519 --> 00:44:51.599
were subpoenaed to testify in front of the grand jury.

846
00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:54.679
The thing is, with these federal investigations, it could be

847
00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:58.760
wrapped up. We don't know, right, We'll only know if

848
00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:01.320
there are indictments, anything will come of it. So it's

849
00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:03.079
possibly that it's come and gone and they.

850
00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:06.159
Just decided not to do any indictments, or it could

851
00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:08.679
happen that they decide to indict tomorrow.

852
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:14.079
Right, Kieren Reid's defense is the beneficiary of this federal investigation.

853
00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:17.880
They have turned over the evidence to her defense and

854
00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:23.280
includes over three thousand pages, including crash reconstruction experts who

855
00:45:23.320 --> 00:45:26.159
concluded that John's injuries were not consistent with being hit

856
00:45:26.199 --> 00:45:28.559
by a car, which is kind of surprising because it's

857
00:45:28.599 --> 00:45:31.880
supposed to be secret, But yet they did give the.

858
00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:34.920
I think's interesting, and they had that before the trial.

859
00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:39.199
Okay, now we're going to take a closer look at

860
00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:42.280
the timeline of events between January twenty eighth and January

861
00:45:42.280 --> 00:45:45.679
twenty ninth. Okay, it's seventh. Well, remember Karen and John

862
00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:48.400
had been fighting, right We had True Crime Theater in

863
00:45:48.440 --> 00:45:50.320
the last episode.

864
00:45:50.280 --> 00:45:52.559
And that was in the morning of the twenty Morning of.

865
00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:55.280
The twenty eighth, they weren't getting along. They went about

866
00:45:55.280 --> 00:45:57.559
their day and then they met up later. At seven

867
00:45:57.559 --> 00:46:00.920
point thirty seven pm, John and his friend Michael Camerono

868
00:46:01.239 --> 00:46:06.000
arrive at c F. McCarthy's restaurant via an uber. In

869
00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:10.679
eight fifty one, Karen came to the c F. McCarthy's restaurant.

870
00:46:11.800 --> 00:46:14.719
I think they had several drinks together. At ten forty

871
00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:18.039
Karen and John left c F. McCarthy's to go to

872
00:46:18.079 --> 00:46:21.360
the Waterfall to meet Jen and Matt McKay, Brian and

873
00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:25.440
Nicole Albert, and Chris and Julie Albert. I think they're

874
00:46:25.480 --> 00:46:27.440
right across the street from each other. It's like a

875
00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:28.199
two minute.

876
00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:29.559
Walk, okay, So they just walked over there.

877
00:46:29.679 --> 00:46:31.840
Yeah, And Kieren took her drink with her and she

878
00:46:31.880 --> 00:46:34.599
thought it was funny. And when she got to the bar,

879
00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:37.360
she was showing everyone, see, I have my drink with me.

880
00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:39.920
Is that an Because John took his drink with them

881
00:46:39.960 --> 00:46:43.079
when they left the bar later that night, right right, Okay,

882
00:46:43.400 --> 00:46:44.440
it's really funny.

883
00:46:44.440 --> 00:46:46.000
We wouldn't I don't think I would ever take a

884
00:46:46.079 --> 00:46:48.920
drink with me. Well, it's not true. If I had

885
00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:52.719
five drinks, then I probably would. They were at the

886
00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:55.920
Waterfall for probably an hour, an hour and twenty minutes.

887
00:46:56.079 --> 00:47:00.840
They had several drinks, and then around twelve pm twelve am,

888
00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:03.679
the party begins to break up. Chris and Julie Albert

889
00:47:03.679 --> 00:47:06.239
went home, but everyone else was invited back to Brian

890
00:47:06.280 --> 00:47:11.079
and Nichole's house at thirty four Fairview Road. At twelve ten,

891
00:47:11.320 --> 00:47:13.840
Karen and John left the bar, and John is seen

892
00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:18.320
leaving with a short cocktailed class at twelve fifteen, John

893
00:47:18.360 --> 00:47:22.239
texts Jennifer McCabe where to question mark. She called him

894
00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:25.639
and they talked for forty four seconds. She later deleted

895
00:47:25.639 --> 00:47:29.079
this from her call log allegedly, and she called him

896
00:47:29.159 --> 00:47:33.000
several more times within the next hour. At twelve eighteen,

897
00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:37.480
Jennifer arrived at the Albert's house and called John again

898
00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:41.480
and they talked for thirty six seconds. At twelve twenty four,

899
00:47:41.639 --> 00:47:44.360
phone ping show that Karen and John are at the

900
00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:47.280
Albert's house, Like in front of the house, Karen and

901
00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:49.960
John must have sat in the car for five minutes.

902
00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:52.119
I think they might have been arguing during this time.

903
00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:55.760
At twelve twenty nine, there is another call between Jen

904
00:47:55.840 --> 00:47:58.480
and John that lasted only for eight seconds, and it

905
00:47:58.519 --> 00:48:01.880
was probably something like Hey, are you here, and John's like, yep,

906
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:05.079
I'll be right in. And the twelve twenty nine call

907
00:48:05.239 --> 00:48:07.199
was the last call that we know that was answered.

908
00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:11.440
Between twelve twenty nine and twelve fifty, Jen called John

909
00:48:11.639 --> 00:48:15.920
ten more times and all of those went unanswered. Karen

910
00:48:15.960 --> 00:48:19.199
told Nightline that she left around twelve thirty. She wasn't

911
00:48:19.239 --> 00:48:21.400
sure that they were invited to the after party, and

912
00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:24.679
she didn't feel comfortable going inside so she told John,

913
00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:27.239
go in and scope things out, let me know what

914
00:48:27.320 --> 00:48:30.719
the mood is, and maybe I'll come in. She said.

915
00:48:30.760 --> 00:48:33.840
She waited ten minutes and became angry when John didn't

916
00:48:33.840 --> 00:48:36.599
answer her texts, so she left and went back to

917
00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:40.000
his house. She left him angry voicemails. She called him

918
00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:43.400
a loser and her pervert. But at the same time,

919
00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:46.840
no one at the party ever saw John, but some

920
00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:50.719
people did see an suv pull into the driveway around

921
00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:51.480
twelve thirty.

922
00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:54.840
It doesn't This story is not making sense to me.

923
00:48:55.079 --> 00:48:57.960
So she's saying she dropped him off and said go

924
00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:01.079
in and text me. Right, he didn't see him go in,

925
00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:02.440
like she was right there.

926
00:49:02.679 --> 00:49:07.039
And so, like I said earlier, her story did change.

927
00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:09.920
And this is what her version of the story was

928
00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:10.599
to Nightline.

929
00:49:10.719 --> 00:49:12.800
Okay that she I.

930
00:49:12.760 --> 00:49:15.000
Think she said that she saw his head poke into

931
00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:17.599
the house, not his whole body enter the house.

932
00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:20.039
Okay, even that doesn't add up.

933
00:49:20.199 --> 00:49:22.840
But okay, right, and it doesn't. The timeline doesn't add

934
00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:25.960
up either, because at twelve forty one, it shows her

935
00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:28.760
back at John's house, so we know that John was

936
00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:31.000
still in her car at twelve twenty nine. And she

937
00:49:31.039 --> 00:49:33.280
said she waited ten minutes, but ten minutes later she

938
00:49:33.320 --> 00:49:34.119
was back at his house.

939
00:49:34.199 --> 00:49:34.880
Okay, and his.

940
00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:37.920
House was less than ten minutes away from the Albert's house.

941
00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:38.800
Yeah.

942
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:42.440
From twelve thirty am to six am, Karen called John's

943
00:49:42.440 --> 00:49:46.159
cell phone fifty three times and left him eight voicemails.

944
00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:48.119
We talked about that last time, but that's a shocking

945
00:49:48.199 --> 00:49:48.679
number of it that.

946
00:49:48.719 --> 00:49:49.679
It's a lot of calls.

947
00:49:50.199 --> 00:49:52.119
Here's a clip of some of Karen's voicemails.

948
00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:55.679
Now far as his first voicemail, what time did this

949
00:49:56.719 --> 00:50:01.039
twelve thirty seven am? Submission? If I could play that

950
00:50:01.079 --> 00:50:10.000
for the dread Yes? Third message, what time is that received?

951
00:50:10.280 --> 00:50:12.760
Twelve fifty nine John?

952
00:50:18.039 --> 00:50:20.280
In regard to the fifth message, what time was I

953
00:50:20.320 --> 00:50:21.559
received by mister Keystone?

954
00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:29.119
When eleven am? One in the morning? Nephew, sure you're.

955
00:50:31.079 --> 00:50:33.840
In The Sixth message sir, what time was that received

956
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:34.800
by mister Keystone?

957
00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:36.000
One eighteen am?

958
00:50:36.599 --> 00:50:40.039
John? I'm going home. I cannot see any and you

959
00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:40.679
go home?

960
00:50:41.039 --> 00:50:46.239
You will him leading next to me?

961
00:50:46.639 --> 00:50:52.440
Your mother? Yeah. Seventh message sir? What time was I

962
00:50:52.519 --> 00:50:53.800
received by mister Keystone?

963
00:50:54.199 --> 00:50:58.280
Five twenty three am.

964
00:50:58.400 --> 00:51:02.039
Karen obviously very upset. She calls him a pervert, many times,

965
00:51:02.679 --> 00:51:05.079
she must think he's with another woman.

966
00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:06.880
Oh, okay, maybe.

967
00:51:07.480 --> 00:51:10.320
At twelve forty one am, Karen cell Phone places her

968
00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:13.719
back at John's house, which is six minutes away. At

969
00:51:13.800 --> 00:51:18.760
one forty five am, Caitlin Alberts, Brian and Nicole Elbert's

970
00:51:19.159 --> 00:51:21.559
daughter was picked up by her boyfriend to go back

971
00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:24.559
to their apartment. And she said that she didn't notice

972
00:51:24.599 --> 00:51:27.519
anything in the front yard, and neither did Tristan. And

973
00:51:27.559 --> 00:51:29.199
really there's a lot of people that are kind of

974
00:51:29.239 --> 00:51:30.679
like leaving the party.

975
00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:34.239
And but his body was probably covered in snow.

976
00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:37.920
No, it probably wasn't because the snow had just kind

977
00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:42.880
of started. It was just flurries, Okay, so for several

978
00:51:42.920 --> 00:51:45.639
hours until I think, I don't know, four or five

979
00:51:45.719 --> 00:51:47.880
six am that's when it started picking up. The heaviest

980
00:51:47.920 --> 00:51:50.960
snow happened at eight am. Okay, So it wouldn't have

981
00:51:50.960 --> 00:51:53.480
been enough snow to cover a you know, a large

982
00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:58.039
man after two am. A snowplow driver. And I always said,

983
00:51:58.119 --> 00:52:00.039
there wasn't like a ton of snow, but he could.

984
00:52:00.119 --> 00:52:03.000
Been a just driving around and getting ready.

985
00:52:02.960 --> 00:52:05.639
Right, and maybe he was salting or maybe there was

986
00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:07.760
enough snow to plow. But there certainly wasn't you know,

987
00:52:07.840 --> 00:52:10.320
to cover a you know, John was six foot to

988
00:52:11.079 --> 00:52:14.159
two hundred and fifteen pounds. You know, they would have

989
00:52:14.239 --> 00:52:16.800
taken several inches of snow to cover his body where

990
00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:20.119
it wouldn't it would appear to be a shrub or something. Okay,

991
00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:23.199
Later on we're going to talk about the snowplow driver

992
00:52:23.320 --> 00:52:26.199
a little bit more. But he did see a car

993
00:52:26.760 --> 00:52:28.800
that was in front of the Albert's house. It was

994
00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:31.599
a forward edge. And the reason he noticed the car

995
00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:35.400
is because during a snow emergency, they are not supposed

996
00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:37.719
to be cars parked on the street. So he was

997
00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:40.079
going to have to have the car removed, so he

998
00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:42.840
paid special note to the forward edge.

999
00:52:43.039 --> 00:52:43.239
Oka.

1000
00:52:43.480 --> 00:52:47.599
And his implication was that because the car was there,

1001
00:52:47.800 --> 00:52:49.599
he noticed it and he didn't notice a.

1002
00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:53.039
Body, okay, And he remembered the exact location of the car.

1003
00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:56.079
Well, it was in front of a flagpole. Remember that

1004
00:52:56.159 --> 00:53:00.719
John's body was by a flagpole, So gotcha. Around four five, Kaylee,

1005
00:53:00.800 --> 00:53:03.519
John's niece, was woken by Karen screaming that John didn't

1006
00:53:03.519 --> 00:53:06.880
come home. A four point fifty three, Kaylee called Jen

1007
00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:09.000
McCabe to ask her if she had any idea where

1008
00:53:09.039 --> 00:53:12.920
John was at five am, Karen called Carrie Roberts, John's

1009
00:53:12.920 --> 00:53:16.480
lifelong friend, and told her John was missing, and that's

1010
00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:19.440
when the women decided to meet at Jen McCabe's house

1011
00:53:19.840 --> 00:53:23.360
to go look for John. And it's possible that Karen

1012
00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:27.719
Reid first went to thirty four Fairview Road and that's

1013
00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:29.320
when she saw John's body and what.

1014
00:53:29.320 --> 00:53:31.679
And there's some evidence then indicates that she might have

1015
00:53:31.719 --> 00:53:32.440
gone there.

1016
00:53:32.360 --> 00:53:35.280
First, right, Yeah, I think her either her cell phone

1017
00:53:35.320 --> 00:53:39.480
or her GPS data. Yeah. At five seven am, surveillance

1018
00:53:39.559 --> 00:53:42.760
video from John's ring camera shows Karen leaving the house

1019
00:53:42.800 --> 00:53:45.079
in a hurry, and it appears that she hits John's

1020
00:53:45.079 --> 00:53:48.760
car before she drove to the McCabe's house. When Karen

1021
00:53:48.760 --> 00:53:51.840
got to the mccab's house, she showed Carrie and Jen

1022
00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:53.760
her tail light and she was like, I don't know

1023
00:53:53.800 --> 00:53:57.960
what happened. Apparently I cracked my tail light. Carrie Roberts

1024
00:53:58.039 --> 00:54:01.639
later testified that it was cracked and peace was sticking out.

1025
00:54:02.079 --> 00:54:05.079
It actually was like sticking out in sharp and she

1026
00:54:05.199 --> 00:54:07.320
said something like I was afraid that someone was gonna

1027
00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:11.840
like cut themselves on it or snag their jacket on it.

1028
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:12.280
Okay.

1029
00:54:12.920 --> 00:54:15.840
The three women decided to first return to John's house

1030
00:54:15.880 --> 00:54:18.239
to see if maybe he'd come home, or maybe maybe

1031
00:54:18.280 --> 00:54:20.400
he was in bed and Karen had just missed him.

1032
00:54:20.800 --> 00:54:23.119
When they didn't find him, they drove to the Albert's

1033
00:54:23.360 --> 00:54:26.519
house at thirty four fear of your road, Jen McCabe

1034
00:54:26.599 --> 00:54:29.800
drove Karen's Lexus and you remember from last time. As

1035
00:54:29.800 --> 00:54:33.519
they pulled up, Karen became hysterical. She jumped out of

1036
00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:36.800
the car and began screaming. And it was still pretty dark.

1037
00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:40.079
The sun doesn't didn't rise that day until seven oh

1038
00:54:40.119 --> 00:54:43.719
one am. There are varying reports as to what Karen said,

1039
00:54:43.719 --> 00:54:47.400
but witnesses recall hearing her say, could I have hit him?

1040
00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:50.000
Did I hit him? And what if he's dad? What

1041
00:54:50.079 --> 00:54:52.800
if a plow hit him? I don't remember, she said,

1042
00:54:52.840 --> 00:54:55.280
I don't remember anything from last night. We drank so much.

1043
00:54:55.599 --> 00:54:59.480
I don't remember anything. At six oh four am, Jen

1044
00:54:59.639 --> 00:55:02.119
called nine to one one. At six p'h nine, the

1045
00:55:02.199 --> 00:55:06.000
EMT's arrived on the scene. At six thirty am, Jen

1046
00:55:06.199 --> 00:55:08.159
went into the Elbert house to wake up her sister

1047
00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:11.159
Nicole at the request of an officer at the scene.

1048
00:55:11.199 --> 00:55:13.000
She had been trying to call them over and over,

1049
00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:17.400
but neither Brian or Nicole picked up their phones and

1050
00:55:17.480 --> 00:55:21.039
Jen was hysterical at this point, and Brian and Nicole

1051
00:55:21.159 --> 00:55:23.920
stayed in the house. They didn't check on the investigation

1052
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:26.360
at all. Some people are a little suspicious about that

1053
00:55:26.519 --> 00:55:29.360
because Brian's a cop, Like can he walk out there

1054
00:55:29.360 --> 00:55:31.039
and be like, Hey, what's going on? What's going on

1055
00:55:31.119 --> 00:55:34.880
in my yard? You would think, and you would think

1056
00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:36.880
that they would have woke like the dog probably would

1057
00:55:36.880 --> 00:55:39.280
have woken up, Like Chloe's kind of an aggressive dog.

1058
00:55:39.760 --> 00:55:41.880
She would have probably heard the noise and she would

1059
00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:44.079
have been barking. Wouldn't they have been woken up? So

1060
00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:49.119
some people pointed that behavior suspicious too. At six thirty

1061
00:55:49.119 --> 00:55:52.960
four am, Karen texted her friend Catherine and said he's dead.

1062
00:55:53.559 --> 00:55:56.760
At seven twenty am, Brian Albert called Brian Higgins to

1063
00:55:56.800 --> 00:55:59.440
tell him that John was dead, and at seven poin

1064
00:55:59.440 --> 00:56:02.079
fifty that's when John was officially declared dead. But I

1065
00:56:02.079 --> 00:56:05.239
think as he left the crime scene that people, I'm

1066
00:56:05.239 --> 00:56:07.880
sure knew that it was unlikely that he was going

1067
00:56:07.920 --> 00:56:10.880
to be Okay, right, I think we're going to end

1068
00:56:10.960 --> 00:56:15.239
here for it today and everyone's going to hate to

1069
00:56:15.320 --> 00:56:15.880
talk about.

1070
00:56:16.039 --> 00:56:18.119
Yeah, there really is I mean this is a really

1071
00:56:18.119 --> 00:56:21.119
fascinating case, and I have to say my thinking on

1072
00:56:21.239 --> 00:56:23.440
it is, I really don't know what to think. I

1073
00:56:23.800 --> 00:56:26.119
don't either, There's so many thoughts in my head, and I.

1074
00:56:26.039 --> 00:56:28.880
Know I can I understand why everyone is so confused

1075
00:56:28.920 --> 00:56:30.440
by it and compelled by it.

1076
00:56:30.599 --> 00:56:32.079
Well, it seems like a lot of people are very

1077
00:56:32.119 --> 00:56:34.119
sure of what they believe though, and I and I

1078
00:56:34.159 --> 00:56:36.480
am not at all like I am really I can

1079
00:56:36.519 --> 00:56:39.199
sort of see both theories.

1080
00:56:39.320 --> 00:56:42.280
So well, that's our goal in general with our podcast

1081
00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:47.880
to have an intelligent discussion and not necessarily jump to conclusions.

1082
00:56:48.360 --> 00:56:51.960
But I do jump to conclusions all the time. So

1083
00:56:52.039 --> 00:56:54.159
at this point, you have not formed an opinion.

1084
00:56:54.400 --> 00:56:56.760
I have lots of opinions, but I have not come

1085
00:56:56.800 --> 00:56:57.760
to any conclusions.

1086
00:56:57.840 --> 00:57:01.159
No come back for part three.

1087
00:57:01.480 --> 00:57:04.760
I will definitely come back for part three. I am

1088
00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:07.440
totally intrigued and looking forward to part three.

1089
00:57:07.840 --> 00:57:09.920
Well, next time we are going to get to the

1090
00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:13.199
trial and we're going to wrap this thing up.

1091
00:57:13.480 --> 00:57:15.440
Can't wait before we go.

1092
00:57:15.559 --> 00:57:18.480
I did want to mention the victim, John O'Keefe. He

1093
00:57:18.840 --> 00:57:22.199
seemed like he was an amazing man and father and

1094
00:57:22.280 --> 00:57:25.239
police officer, and brother and uncle and all of those things,

1095
00:57:26.039 --> 00:57:27.920
and he has gotten lost in this case.

1096
00:57:28.119 --> 00:57:30.199
Yeah, I mean the case is so involved and there's

1097
00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:32.480
so much evidence that you do end up focusing a

1098
00:57:32.480 --> 00:57:36.159
lot on the people who are remaining. And yeah, it

1099
00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:38.239
definitely I can see how that could happen.

1100
00:57:39.079 --> 00:57:41.519
But the whole time I worked on this case, I

1101
00:57:41.559 --> 00:57:45.280
thought of Kayley and Patrick his I don't know whether

1102
00:57:45.360 --> 00:57:47.760
to call a niece and nephew or son and daughter,

1103
00:57:47.800 --> 00:57:49.920
but I think they were like a son and obviously

1104
00:57:49.960 --> 00:57:52.039
they were like a son and daughter to raise them

1105
00:57:52.039 --> 00:57:52.559
for ten years.

1106
00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:54.719
Yeah, and that's really sad that they lost both their

1107
00:57:54.760 --> 00:57:58.840
parents so suddenly, and then to lose their surrogate parent

1108
00:57:59.119 --> 00:57:59.800
right like that.

1109
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:02.480
It's really they've been through a lot. Yeah, the family's

1110
00:58:02.519 --> 00:58:06.440
been through a lot, and they've seen they haven't been

1111
00:58:06.440 --> 00:58:08.519
treated as well as maybe they could have been by

1112
00:58:08.519 --> 00:58:08.960
the media.

1113
00:58:09.119 --> 00:58:10.800
Oh really, it's too bad.

1114
00:58:17.639 --> 00:58:19.599
So you and I went away for a little getaway.

1115
00:58:19.599 --> 00:58:22.800
We didn't tell anyone. We just kind of went away

1116
00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:26.599
for five six days too. We went up north.

1117
00:58:26.840 --> 00:58:29.400
It was really nice over the fourth of July weekend

1118
00:58:29.880 --> 00:58:33.440
up to Traverse City, which is a place we go regularly.

1119
00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:36.760
Yeah, we well, I wanted to go. This is so silly,

1120
00:58:36.760 --> 00:58:39.280
but I really wanted to go to go to the

1121
00:58:39.360 --> 00:58:42.800
cherry festival and to get some cherries because around fourth

1122
00:58:42.800 --> 00:58:45.840
of July is when the cherries and Michigan start popping.

1123
00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:48.400
Yeah, and if you don't know, Traverse City is well

1124
00:58:48.440 --> 00:58:50.440
known for if anyone.

1125
00:58:50.159 --> 00:58:53.480
Listens to the podcast, they dug about it every flippant episode.

1126
00:58:53.519 --> 00:58:56.679
But the cherries were so good.

1127
00:58:56.840 --> 00:58:57.880
They were very good.

1128
00:58:58.000 --> 00:58:59.840
We hate so many. When we were there, we got like,

1129
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:02.440
I don't know, we had a bunch. I ate most

1130
00:59:02.519 --> 00:59:05.039
of them, and then we had to get more for

1131
00:59:05.079 --> 00:59:08.360
the way home, and then I made a pie and yeah.

1132
00:59:08.360 --> 00:59:09.760
And the great thing is you can just stop at

1133
00:59:09.800 --> 00:59:12.719
like they have all these little roadside farm stands where

1134
00:59:12.719 --> 00:59:14.920
they actually grow the cherries right there and they sell

1135
00:59:14.960 --> 00:59:16.079
them and you can just stop and.

1136
00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:19.119
Wash them for it. It's very quaint. It's a yeah,

1137
00:59:19.239 --> 00:59:21.800
we love going up north is that was really lovely. Yeah,

1138
00:59:21.840 --> 00:59:24.320
it was a nice time. We talked about it this

1139
00:59:24.400 --> 00:59:28.199
on the last episode. The Olympics have already happened by

1140
00:59:28.199 --> 00:59:30.079
the time you're listening to, so they're probablybe there's.

1141
00:59:29.960 --> 00:59:32.199
Probably still going on, still going. I'm back.

1142
00:59:33.519 --> 00:59:35.320
You haven't gun you have a lot for your back,

1143
00:59:35.920 --> 00:59:39.239
Will you bring some some Parisian cheetos. Now I want

1144
00:59:39.280 --> 00:59:40.519
to collect cheetos from all.

1145
00:59:40.599 --> 00:59:42.639
Okay, I was, you know, I was thinking about that

1146
00:59:42.679 --> 00:59:44.920
because I usually do like to bring back some snacks.

1147
00:59:44.920 --> 00:59:47.159
But I thought, I've done this so many times now.

1148
00:59:47.679 --> 00:59:49.719
I've gone to Paris and I brought back snacks. I

1149
00:59:49.719 --> 00:59:53.239
brought snacks from Iceland last time. But yes, I will.

1150
00:59:53.280 --> 00:59:56.360
I will look for some Parisian cheetos if I can

1151
00:59:56.360 --> 00:59:56.880
find them.

1152
00:59:57.320 --> 01:00:00.679
It's just interesting to see the differences among and maybe

1153
01:00:01.159 --> 01:00:04.079
they have the same exact ones. I'm curious about the

1154
01:00:04.199 --> 01:00:08.119
ingredients because I don't speak Italian. I think there are

1155
01:00:08.239 --> 01:00:10.960
less ingredients in the Italian cheetos.

1156
01:00:11.039 --> 01:00:13.440
Yeah, we should. We should verify that. I think there

1157
01:00:13.440 --> 01:00:15.199
are fewer like preservatives and.

1158
01:00:15.159 --> 01:00:17.599
Things like That is your theory, that is my theory.

1159
01:00:17.679 --> 01:00:20.000
That could be.

1160
01:00:19.000 --> 01:00:22.039
Before we go, I wanted to mention my sources. I

1161
01:00:22.119 --> 01:00:26.119
listened to a podcast from NBC Boston ten called The

1162
01:00:26.199 --> 01:00:31.360
Karen Read Murder Trial Canton Confidential, and NBC ten give

1163
01:00:31.400 --> 01:00:33.000
them a lot of credit. They did a great job.

1164
01:00:33.559 --> 01:00:37.360
They every day they would have like what happened and

1165
01:00:37.400 --> 01:00:39.400
the testimony and the trial, and it was like kind

1166
01:00:39.400 --> 01:00:41.519
of a nice way to listen to the trial and

1167
01:00:41.559 --> 01:00:44.159
only listen to, like, you know, twenty to twenty minutes

1168
01:00:44.199 --> 01:00:44.519
of it.

1169
01:00:45.079 --> 01:00:47.679
Content like that is a really good reason to support

1170
01:00:47.719 --> 01:00:50.119
local journalism. They do a great job.

1171
01:00:50.199 --> 01:00:54.320
They did a great job. And also the Boston Globe,

1172
01:00:54.800 --> 01:00:58.480
which is a great newspaper. We read a lot of newspapers,

1173
01:00:58.920 --> 01:01:02.280
and we have a subscript into newspapers dot Com, which

1174
01:01:02.840 --> 01:01:06.519
I recommend. That was a really great resource too, And

1175
01:01:06.519 --> 01:01:08.320
it's so nice to have a good paper. And there's

1176
01:01:08.320 --> 01:01:12.119
so much coverage in this case that I am not

1177
01:01:12.239 --> 01:01:15.400
exaggerating when I said I think I read one hundred articles.

1178
01:01:15.480 --> 01:01:18.159
Yeah, I believe it, and they did.

1179
01:01:18.440 --> 01:01:20.400
They did a great job too. So if you want

1180
01:01:20.400 --> 01:01:22.440
to and you can find the trial. I think the

1181
01:01:22.480 --> 01:01:25.559
whole trial was televised. I didn't find out about it

1182
01:01:25.639 --> 01:01:28.639
until it was pretty much over because I'm not sure.

1183
01:01:28.639 --> 01:01:32.679
I guess I live under a rock. But you can

1184
01:01:32.840 --> 01:01:35.400
go back and watch the whole trial. Trial. We're going

1185
01:01:35.480 --> 01:01:37.119
to talk about the trial next time, But.

1186
01:01:37.360 --> 01:01:39.559
Like, how many days was the trial? Do you know?

1187
01:01:40.320 --> 01:01:45.079
It was thirty two? Okay, so it was a lot. Yeah,

1188
01:01:45.159 --> 01:01:48.320
that's why we're here for three parts. So we'll get

1189
01:01:48.360 --> 01:01:49.960
to the trial next time, but we're not going to

1190
01:01:50.039 --> 01:01:52.599
beliebor it. We're just going to kind of touch on

1191
01:01:52.639 --> 01:01:53.320
some highlights.

1192
01:01:53.559 --> 01:01:56.519
All right, sounds good. If you would like to listen

1193
01:01:56.559 --> 01:01:58.800
to part three of this episode right now, join us

1194
01:01:58.840 --> 01:02:03.480
on Patreon at dot com slash Lovemarykill for five dollars

1195
01:02:03.559 --> 01:02:06.119
a month. You get early ad free access plus a

1196
01:02:06.199 --> 01:02:07.679
bonus episode every month.

1197
01:02:08.559 --> 01:02:11.360
I wanted to thank our friends again in Italy for

1198
01:02:11.440 --> 01:02:14.159
sending a snack that was again so sweet and generous

1199
01:02:14.159 --> 01:02:17.280
of you. Please rate, review, follow, and subscribe, find us

1200
01:02:17.360 --> 01:02:20.519
on social media, or send us an email at Lovemarykill

1201
01:02:21.079 --> 01:02:24.000
at gmail dot com and I will be posting a

1202
01:02:24.039 --> 01:02:27.880
lot of pictures in support of this episode. And until

1203
01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:30.880
next time, don't kill your wife and don't kill your husband.

1204
01:03:03.760 --> 01:03:06.760
Competing at