Karen Read and John O'Keefe - Part 1 of 3

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage, it's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife and some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary Kill Hi Rich, Hi Tena. You sound a little down. It's just the prime day. Deals were popping this week, and I got some new over the ear yeah headphones that we use while we're podcasting, because the other ones made like these weird creaky noises that drove me crazy. And these are actually really good. But this is the weirdest thing. They barely fit my head. Mm hmmm. Why do you think that is because they have a big brain. I'm serious, Like, I'm in the largest setting and they they're fine, but I wish there was like just a I need but more room. Yeah, you do have a big brain. Well reminds me of a quick story one time. I think I don't remember it was their son, it was their daughter. I think in her head was measuring off the charts and I was asking the doctor like, gosh, why is your head so big? They just laughed and were like, well, have you seen your head? And then she actually measured my head and then showed me the Book of averages. So it's that I do have. Yeah, but you're not going to make fun of me, are you, because you definitely have a large heads. We have a family of large headed people.

1:36 Large headed people tend to be more successful, That's what I tell myself, right, Yeah, but anyway, Yeah, it's a little weird that, like I'm on the biggest setting and that's I'm not even joking. That's where I don't wear hats people are in the winter, Like, why do they don't make them in my size? Well, your hair is not small either, so right, but today it's all like pushed. I don't know, I don't know. We got a snack in the mail. We have this big, large box, I know, and it took a I think you picked it up a couple of weeks ago and we haven't opened it. But some really sweet listeners, American listeners who happen to be living in Italy, sent us a big box of Stax. They come from Sam and Tim. Tim I believe is from Michigan. Oh cool, it's a big box.

2:19 And this is a two part episode. I think probably two parts. Okay, we haven't opened it yet. We haven't opened it, and I know there's a lot of stuff, so I'm just going to try to not look too hard. And Sam did send a nice note saying that there's some sort of special Cheeto product in here, your favorite Cheetos. Okay, So I'm just going to try to like maybe grab three things out of the box, okay, without looking too much. Okay, So I didn't think about having to pronounce these things. But so far three things I picked out were in Atala biscuits and these pistachios biochi biochi pistachios. Oh, some sort of cookie pistachio cookies. And a Kinderjoy Oh cool? And Italia, Oh, a hairy pot Kinderjoy. Do you know what those are? I'm not sure.

3:04 Kids for Christmas? Like a chocolate eggs. A chocolate egg there's usually a toy inside, like a little toy. Cool. Okay, we'll be right back. Those were so good, it was really really good. I read them all out of ten. How about you, Well, they were all really really good, but I'm going to give a little bit of a scale because I think the the kinder what is it called kinder Joy? Out of ten, I don't think i'd ever opened I don't think i'd ever eaten one. I think I've bought them for our kids. And then there's a cute little Ron Weasley inside that you can make, which is so cute. That's delicious. And then the other two, the nutella and the Bayochi or whatever however it's pronounced. I'm going to say like nine out of ten. They're really good too. I always say the pistachio might have been Maybe I'd give that a nine. The Natella biscuits which we had in the US, and I think we bought them. They're different. I think it was more of like a sandwich cookie, and this was it was really interesting. I actually really like the pistassio ones too. They're very like light and like shortbread cookie type of thing. But really, let's go Italy, all right, Well, thank you so much, Samantha. We can't thank you enough for that kind gift. Yeah, and there's a whole bunch of other stuff in there.

4:21 Wait. I don't think there's any more kinder joys though. There's only why I think you might be lying to me. Okay, So as much as I'd like to sit here and eat Italian snacks all day. I'm going to tell you a story. And how familiar are you with this story? I know we've talked about it a little bit. I know it's been in the news a lot. I've seen like headlines, but I have I know nothing, and I've tried intentionally tried not to learn anything because I like to be educated by you. The Karen Read murder trial has captivated the country. Karen is accused of hitting her boyfriend, Boston Police officer John o'keeth and anger after a night drinking with friends with her Lexus SUV when she dropped him off at a friend's house just after midnight on January twenty ninth, twenty twenty two, as a blizzard slammed the town of Canton, Massachusetts. That was a run on sentence, if there's ever been a run on celsits. After the alleged incident, Karen left the scene of the crime. Her defense made the bold claim that the Massachusetts State Police and the Canton Police Department conspired to cover up John's murder to protect two law enforcement agents, Brian Higgins and Brian Albert, and Brian's seventeen year old nephew Colin Albert. They argued that the trio beat John and left him in the snow to die by planting evidence and coaching witnesses. I want to caution listeners that if you listened to the entire trial, all thirty two days of testimony, we're not going to do that here.

5:50 We're going to tell you the important facts and about all the parties involved, but we're not going to go super duper deep. And a lot of people have been super obsessed with this trial, right, so there probably are people out there who have listened to the whole trial and know every detail and every fact, right, you probably will be disappointed in our podcast. Then it's good to set expectations low before I get into to do that every episode. But I think we're going to have a good discussion and I'm going to tell you a lot of the highlights. I mean, we're going fairly in depth, but there are some people that are just there's so much information, and something that is limiting to us is that we have I've been working on this pretty hard for two weeks. I mean I could work on it for months and months and still not do it justice exactly. I'm a little afraid turtle Boy is going to come after us. I'm going to tell you all about Turtle Boy in a little bit. And I have seen on other podcasts that they've gotten bad reviews if they disagreed with the popular Oh. Okay, So I'm going to try to reserve as much opinion and give you as many of the facts as we can. Okay. John JJ O'Keeffe was born on December eighth, nineteen seventy five, in Braintree, Massachusetts. He graduated from Braintree High School, attended college at Northeastern University, and later earned his master's degree in criminal justice from the University of Massachusetts. John was a sixteen year veteran of the Boston Police Department. He became a Boston Police officer following in his beloved grandfather's footsteps. John Jackson, a close friend of O'Keefe's, told

7:26 The Boston Globe that John was quote made to be a cop. He was always the responsible friend in the group. John was a diehard Boston sports fan and never missed Opening Day at Fenway Park. Boston sports fans seem like they're kind of a job. I mean, I know a lot of cities have adamant sports fans, but Boston seems to be among the most enthusiastics right sure. In twenty fourteen, John became the guardian to his niece Kiley and nephew Patrick, when they were just six and three. In a tragic turn of events for the family's sister, Kristin O'Keefe, Furbush, thirty nine, died of an aggressive brain tumor in November twenty thirteen. Her husband, Steve, and Furbush, also thirty nine, died of a heart attack just two months later in January twenty fourteen. Gosh, isn't that so sad? That it's horrible? Those poor kids? I know. John moved from his Boston bachelor pad to the suburbs to care for his niece and nephew and took a safer nine to five job within the police department, working in the sex offender Registry unit. The Canta community raised nearly three hundred and forty thousand dollars for the children after John's death. When John's best friend and former partner died by suicide just eight days after his sister's death, John supported his pregnant girlfriend, Laura Sullivan, and became godfather to her son He was the first person in the delivery room after she gave birth, and he has always been there for her and his godson. I just get like emotional thinking about everything that he's been through and the kids have been through. So when I wrote this case,

9:01 I had them on my mind the whole time. They've just been through so much. The phrase It's only a movie is etched onto John's tombstone. His brother said it was a favorite catchphrase of John's that helped him process the craziness of life. A statement released by the Boston Police Department on behalf of his family said quote, John was not only a dedicated police officer, he was an exemplary guardian, son, brother, uncle, and friend and we were so fortunate to have him as part of our lives. People talk about someone who would give you the shirt off their back, and that was truly who John was, and it is heartbreaking for us to suddenly be talking about him in the past tense. We appreciate the outpouring of support we have received, but we asked for privacy during this time, and we will have nothing else to say as we mourn this unbearable loss. The family has been through a lot, and the focus in this case has been on Karen Reid and whether she's guilty or not. And I think John has gotten lost. Yeah, a little bit does happen, doesn't it. Yeah. John's former partner called him, quote the best person on the planet. Here's Karen Reid talking to Nightline about John O'Keefe. I would call him the patron saint of Canton.

10:13 He was this very selfless, frugal and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that didn't care for John. Karen Reid has been painted as a sinner or a saint, depending on who you ask. The truth is likely somewhere in between. Karen was born in nineteen seventy five. She grew up in Blacksburg, Virginia, and Taunton, Massachusetts. In Taunton, she attended a private Catholic school and later attended Bentley College in Waltham, Massachusetts, where her father was the dean of the business school. I spent a lot of time in Waltham, Massachusetts. One of my favorite monks we have is from Bentley College. Yeah. She graduated in three years and then earned a master's degree in finance. Karen Reid most recently worked as an equity animal for Fidelity Investments, and was also a part time professor at her alma mater, Bentley College, where she taught finance. She owns a home in Mansfield, Massachusetts, about an hour southwest of Boston and forty minutes northwest of Providence, Rhode Island. In twenty twenty, Karen and her elderly neighbors had several disputes, mostly noise complaints, that resulted in law enforcement being called. In recent years, Karen has suffered from myriad medical issues, including Crohn's disease, which resulted in temporary blindness and required ten surgeries and a colostomy bag. When Karen was thirty five, she was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and later a benign brain tumor.

11:41 Friends and colleagues have called Karen funny and generous. She's been through some tough things since it sounds like it. At the time of John's death, he and Karen had been dating for about two years. They had dated briefly in two thousand and four, when Karen was twenty four and John twenty eight. They broke up when Karen moved to Dublin, Ireland for work. They reconnected in March twenty twenty, at the beginning of COVID, when John messaged Karen on Facebook. Karen was impressed with John's relationship with his niece and nephew. She helped with the kids and spent most nights at his house, but she still owned her own home. She liked to spoil the kids, and sometimes John grew angry with her for over indulging them. Karen sometimes felt that John took advantage of her and used her for child care purposes. Karen and John traveled to Aruba for vacation with his niece and nephew, Kaylee and Patrick, and about thirty friends to ring in the New Year, just weeks before John's death. So Kayley and Patrick, I refer to them as niece and nephew, but I think they were like a son and a daughter to John because he'd raised them. They'd been with him for ten years at this point, so yeah, I'm not sure if they called him dad or not, but he was definitely a dad figure right. Other family members had offered to take Kayley and Patrick, but John was adamant that he wanted to raise them.

13:03 Karen and John reportedly fought often during the trip. Karen grew upset because she thought she saw John kissing Marietta Sullivan in the hotel lobby. Marietta is the sister of Laura Sullivan, who is the girlfriend of John's former partner. Remember we talked about Laura and how John was there at the birth of her son and he was the son's godfather, right. Both John and Marietta denied the kiss, explaining that they were just hugging, but Karen walked into the lobby yelling and using expletives at them. Marietta said John was like a brother and she was on the trip with her boyfriend. Karen later apologized for her reaction and offered to partially pay for Marietta's hotel room. Karen saw them in the lobby, and you know, it's a big hotel in the lobby, and why would they be kissing in the lobby. First of all, every especially her boyfriend was there too, That would be a little odd. Karen said, what the fuck is going on? And then John introduced them, and Karen said fuck you to Maryetta, and then Mary said fuck you back.

14:05 And yeah, it sounds like it was kind of a scene. I guess, so paying paying for someone's hotel room based on that seems a little seems a little over the top for an apology, like, I'm sorry I yelled at you. Let me pay for your hotel room, well, partially pay partially. I think she fell badly and I think she realized that maybe she made a mistake. Yeah, but we'll see, maybe maybe not. Laura asked John if he was happy on the trip, and he said, quote, it is what it is unquote. When she asked John if he wanted to go on the trip again the following year, he responded, quote, let me recover from this trip first. Karen and John fought frequently, sometimes over the children. O'Keefe's now teenage niece and nephew both testified to the frequent heated arguments between Karen and John two or three times a week. John reportedly recently attempted to break up with Karen, but they they had patched things up. John's niece, Cayley, testified that she had recently heard him tell Karen quote that their relationship had run its course and that it isn't healthy unquote.

15:11 He was unhappy with their constant fighting. She refused to leave the house and didn't want the relationship to end. Patrick, John's nephew, testified that Karen was mean sometimes and when she was angry, she would give him the silent treatment and not talk to him for days. Brian Higgins, an ATF agent, had a flirtation with Karen Reid. He and John O'Keefe were friends. Two weeks before John's death, Brian went to his house to watch a Patriots game. When he was leaving, Karen walked him out to his car and kissed him. He described the kiss as quote not like a friend. He said he was taken aback by the kiss. After the kiss, the two began sending flirty texts. One night, Karen went to Brian's house to discuss their blossoming relationship. Some fifty six pages of texts were recovered between Karen and Brian. The text began on January twelfth, twenty twenty two. Brian was forced to read some of the texts at the trial. He said he was not proud of the messages, and I think we're going to get to those in the next episode when we get to the trial. Karen began confiding in Brian and told him that her relationship with John was less than perfect.

16:22 And she wasn't sure how much longer they would last. She said the kids were spoiled and she felt like John used her for daycare. In the days leading up to John's death, it seemed that Karen had ghosted. Brian Nicholas Colocythus was at the Waterfall Bar and Grill on the night of January twenty eighth, twenty twenty two. He described the mood between Karen and John. He said, quote, they were affectionate towards each other, loving towards each other, to the point where my wife even made a comment she said, why are you not like that with me? End quote. It sounds like maybe they were hot and cold with each other. Sounds that way, or maybe there was some alcohol involved. Could be that too. On the morning of January twenty eighth, Karen and John had had a fight. I think it was over what the kids had eaten for breakfast. They exchanged some terse text messages throughout the day before meeting up later at the bar. So to give you a sense of how the relationship between Karen and John was going, We're going to read those text messages. Well, you know, I love some true crime theater. It's been a minute. The first text is from January twenty eighth at nine forty nine am, and I guess I'll beat Karen.

17:33 You really hurt me this time. I'm sorry. This has been an issue with me for eight years. It physically hurts me to see everyone else in their life do things for them, and I'm forced to always be the bad guy. I am not the same as everyone else. Most of the time. I try to do what is healthy slash smart for them. More importantly, I try to support you and what you need. You just lashed out at me and said some terrible things. I don't know how you I've gotten to this point with me when I'm just trying my hardest, you make your point and continue to beat me down. I have a lot going on too physically. I am falling apart and trying to get answers and help. I am just your girlfriend. I am not a perfect parent. I'm trying very hard and sometimes treat them nothing like I used to. What does she mean treat them nothing like I used to? She probably used to spoil them more, and now she's treating them more like a parent that she's been around for a few years, and probably more comfortable in that role. Okay, what time are you coming here? I don't know what time. Feel kind of out of it, just trying to clear my head. Okay, text me when you guys. Settle in later. Sure at two sixteen pm. I feel pretty shitty about how this morning went down. I know you said sorry, but it really stung, especially when I've been trying pretty hard lately.

18:52 I feel like a loser turning around, just coming back over after everything you've said. Not sure what else you want me to do. I said, I'm sorry, and I was out a line, and if you prefer to stay home, I totally get it. Things in my own life have been difficult too, you know, I know, tell me if you are interested in someone else. Can't think of any other reason you've been like this. Nope, things haven't been great between us for a while. Ever, consider that kids are here, not in the mood to talk, so you're not into it anymore. That's fine, but I don't want to keep trying and you keep treating me like this. I'm trying to hug and kiss you this morning and you whack me in the face with a pillow last night. You're basically like, yeah, what about when we talk about the future, So why don't you just admit it You're not into it so much anymore. Not how it went down, but okay, can you please admit your head is out of the game with us, sick of always arguing and fighting. It's been weekly for several months now, so yeah, I'm not as quick to jump back into being lovey dovey as you apparently. OMG, stop calling?

19:55 Then why would you start with me this morning? You're setting me up to fail. You started a number fights from your end. I've explained it a few times already, not doing it again. So you're not into this anymore? Not into fighting all the time? Correct? If you're telling me you're interested in someone else, you'll never hear from me again. You can have all the space in the world. I am not answering. Stop calling. Can you please answer? After how you treated me earlier? Kayley is right here. You start a rager with me out of nowhere, and then you tell me you're sick of fighting with me. I'm going to grab a drink in a bit. Can you please answer? No? Karen, not sure why you need to announce that you're grabbing a drink, but have fun seeing if you want to meet me later, can you please call me? Have to take them to the doctor. He has practice. Yeah, five minutes.

20:47 My father just walked in. Okay, can you please call me for two minutes? Not right now. I'm there when anyone else needs me. Yes, John, you gave me utter grief this morning. I'd like you to call me for a minute. I've been trying to get over the hump with this arguing and now you're telling you you're not into things and you don't want to fight weekly, but fly off the handle at eight am with me like you're setting me up to fail. What do you think of the relationship between Karen and John? It just sounds really dysfunctional and toxic and exhausting. It reminds me of the relationship I had before I met you in my very early twenties. Oh, insecure all the time and always you know, just let's just break up then if you're not you know that, The fact that she keeps jumping back to you if there's someone else, when he never said anything about someone else or you know, anything like that, and she just wanted to go there though Kiaren was a spicy woman. Okay, doesn't she come across as fiery and oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, the text messages that we just read happened earlier in the day, on the day that he died. Okay. Karen forty one awoke around four thirty am in the morning on January twenty ninth, twenty two. She had fallen asleep on John's couch, dressed in the previous night's clothes, her head pounding in her throat dry. It took her a moment to get her bearings the previous night started to come back to her. She and John forty six had started the night at c. F. McCarthy's and later went to the Waterfall Bar in Canton

22:18 to meet up with friends. So this was after the text message exchanged, so they obviously patch. Karen and John were celebrating the acceptance of Kaylee into a private high school. Everyone in the group at the Waterfall in had had several drinks before they headed to Nicole and Brian Albert's house for an after party just a five minute drive from the bar. Light snow had begun to fall during the evening and continued into the night. John O'Keefe was seen on surveillance camera leaving the bar with a drink in his hand. On the way to Brian's house, Karen and John got into a fight in the car. Karen drove despite her blood alcohol level likely being significantly above the legal limit. A bartender later said that he'd served her four to six drinks, but prosecutors would put that number at nine. The nor'easter gained energy overnight, and by early morning it battered the area with winds over thirty miles per hour and dumped up to twenty five inches of snow. Oh what time did they leave? The bar? Bought midnight? Okay. Karen was having stomach issues and felt funny about going to the Elbert's house so late when she barely knew them, so she dropped John off in front of the house. She did not see him enter the house. She made a three point turn in the road and headed to John's house, where she often stayed. She sent him the following text messages. One at twelve fifty five said I'm going home, see you later.

23:41 At one o two am, your kids are fucking alone. At one o four am, she said, I'm back in Mansfield. The kids are home alone, which isn't true. She was there. I'm not sure why she texted. She called John fifty three times and left him eight voicemails. Fifty three times. Fifty three times. That's a lot of in a period of like what what period of time? I think between twelve forty five and four thirty am. Okay, that's a lot. I need to backtrack too. When Karen texted and said the kids are home alone, Patrick was at a sleepover, Okay, he wasn't home. He wasn't even there. No, he wasn't even there. And Kylee was there, but she was sleeping and she is how she was about to go nicely or fourteen? Yeah, so she's old enough to be home alone. Well, I mean she wouldn't want Kaylle to be home alone all night. Maybe. Yeah. At some point Karen fell asleep on the couch waiting for John, but he never came home. With the weather raging outside, she was worried that John had gotten to an accident. Around four thirty am, she began screaming and woke up Kaylee. Kaylee then called Jennifer McCabe, who had been with Karen and John earlier that night. Jen was the mother of one of Kaylee's good friends.

24:56 Jen had invited Karen and John to the after party at the Albert's house, which belong to her sister Nicole and her brother in law Brian. There are a lot of people involved in this case, and a lot of them are related, and it's hard to keep them straight and their relationships straight. We will clarify, try to clarify as we go on NBC Boston ten, who was a fabulous source while working on this case, has an interactive map of the key players in the trial, and I we'll post that in our show notes so you can see it. It's a really cool map where you can click on one person, it'll show you who they're related to, and then it gives you like a little explainer. Oh cool, I might have to pull that up. Well, I'm actually going to send it to you right now. Second look at it because it is really a great resource. So, just so I understand the relationships, John went to the after party at Nicole and Brian Albert's house. Nicole is the sister of Jennifer McCabe, who will become a major player later. Okay, I think I got it.

25:53 So Karen and John went to the Waterfall Bar and Grill, and there were several people there, Nicole and Brian Albert and Jen McCabe and her husband Matt McCabe were there, and Brian Higgins was there too, and I think they were all invited to go back to the Albert's house. Gotcha and did everybody go back to the Albert's house except for Karen? I think there were a couple of other people that went home. The Albert family is very big. There was another brother, Chris and his wife Julie were there and they both went home. Okay, so we left off talking about Karen had just woken up. She woke up Kaylee, and then Kaylee called Jen McCabe. Jen told Kaylee that she didn't know where John was and that he'd never made it to the party. Karen called Carrie Roberts, a lifelong friend of John's, next and asked her to help her search for John in the blizzard like conditions.

26:49 The three women met at Jen McCabe's house and drove back to thirty four Fairview Road in Canton to the Albert's house, the scene of the after party. Karen said she didn't remember the previous night. She said, quote, I wonder if he is dead. It's snowing. He got hit with a plow end quote. Karen had showed Jen and Carrie her cracked tail light and said she didn't know how it had happened. As they approached the house on Fairview Road, despite nearly complete darkness and blinding snow. Remember it's like five in the morning, Karen was the first to see the white mound that was John's body. She yelled, there he is, there he is, and began kicking at the door in the back seat where she sat stuck because of the engaged child's safety locks. John was lying in the front yard, unconscious, lying face up, covered with four to six inches of snow. He wasn't wearing a jacket, and one shoe was missing. He was near the curb, several hundred feet away from the Albert's front door, near a flagpole.

27:53 Snow was stained with drops of his blood. John's nose and mouth were bloody, his eyes were blackened and swollen shut. Karen ran to him and lifted John's shirt and her own as she hugged him to her in an attempt to warm his frozen body. Jen grabbed blankets from the car to cover John and called nine one one while Karen attempted CPR. EMTs arrived and asked Karen what had happened to John to sustain so much trauma to his body. She allegedly said, quote, I hit him, I hit him, I hit him. John was taken to the hospital. He wasn't breathing and didn't have a pulse. Karen was described by witnesses as distraught and made statements that led them to think she might harm herself. EMTs wanted Karen to be admitted to the hospital under a section twelve. Under section twelve, you were admitted to the hospital and given a psychiatric evaluation. It is then determined if the individual needs to be committed for more than seventy two hours. Karen was taken to Good Samaritan Hospital by ambulance, the same hospital John was at when he arrived.

28:55 At the hospital, John was in cardiac arrest and his body temperature was eighty point one degrees fahrenheit. He scored a three on the Glasgow Coma scale. The lowest score is a three. There are cases of people surviving extreme hypothermia. In twenty fifteen, Justin Smith, a college student from Pennsylvania, was found unconscious in the snow after being exposed to freezing temperatures for nearly twelve hours. His body temperature was so low it couldn't be measured with a standard thermometer. Despite being declared clinically dead, he was revived through a combination of CPR, a specialized heart lung machine, and advanced warming techniques. He made a remarkable recovery with no significant brain damage. Attempts were made to increase John's body temperature using warming blankets and warm ivy fluids, but unfortunately it didn't work.

29:48 John was declared dead at seven fifty am when he was found. I don't think there were any signs of life, but they were hopeful that because his body was so cold, that they might be able to revive him, and they were never able to. Yeah, sense, we'll be back after a break. Although Massachusetts law prohibits the public release of autopsy records, we know what much of the report contained because of court documents. The coroner ruled John's cause of death to be blunt force trauma to the head, which caused multiple skull fractures, with hypothermia as a contributing factor. The manner of death was undetermined. John also suffered a skull fracture and a brain bleed. His right arm was covered in cuts, and he had two black eyes, a cut above his right eye, a two point five inch laceration on the back of his skull, and bruised knuckles. John didn't have any broken bones.

30:47 Below the neck, there were about twenty linear scratches of varying lengths from six inches to a half inch in length. Some of the cuts were very deep. The scratches looked as if they may have come from a dog or possibly a wild animal. The Alberts had a seventy pound German Shepherd named Chloe that was known to be aggressive, but typically with other dogs, not humans. John's wounds were tested by a veterinary forensic laboratory to determine if they contained canine DNA. None was found, nor was dog saliva or fur found. They did, however, find pig DNA. What I don't. I don't know about that. That's really strange. Some people pointed to possibly like a Chloe had eaten a pig ear and maybe that's why there was pig DNA in there.

31:37 Okay, it's very strange. No explanation. Chloe was re homed four months after the incident. However, during grand jury testimony, the medical examiner said the scratches appeared to have come from a blunt force object. The medical examiner said that it didn't appear that John had been in a fight. What do you think is going on here? I have no idea what's going on, But it sounds like he either gott in a fight or got hit by a car or something. But I don't know. I'm a little I'm baffled so far. It is very confusing. But his eyes were both blackened and swollen. Shine yeah, and he had no broken bones. The only book his skull was fractured, But that was the only I would think if you were hit by a car, your lower body would be exactly. I am going to show you a picture of John's arm, and then I'm going to ask you to describe it. Okay, all right, Well, there are a lot of wounds on the arm. But I well, I'm looking at them. I can't imagine what could have made all these wounds. They don't really look like a dog or something like that to me. There are a lot of like scratches or lines that are pretty deep, but they're not like a claw or something like that. So that's what I thought. They're very linear. Most of them are very linear. And then there's a few others that are just sort of like, I don't know, randomly placed. But yeah, I don't know what could what could cause that? It will post the picture on Instagram for our listeners. This is one of the great mysteries in the case, is like what caused those wounds? Yeah, and there

33:07 when it comes to trial, there will be two expert witnesses that will give you two different opinions. In my unexpert opinion, my first instinct is they don't look like they came from a dog. In my opinion, no, I agree with them. What would they have come from? That's I can't I can't think of what they could have come from. I guess well, I think to that we will. Norfolk County Assistant District Attorney Adam Lally alleged that Karen Reid, drunk, angry and frustrated with the relationship, hit John O'Keeffe with her lexus when she was dropping him off at Brian Albert's house. Now we're going to go through some of the evidence in the case. The weather made the crime scene very difficult to investigate. Light snow began around ten thirty pm on January twenty eighth of twenty twenty two, and continued overnight.

33:57 The temperatures dropped after midnight and it became very with winds of twenty to thirty miles per hour. The heaviest snow began after eight am. The snow was light and fluffy and blowing and drifting was an issue. The high on the twenty ninth was in the teens. It was the sixth largest snowfall for the area, with thirty point nine inches of snow. Earlier I said they had twenty five inches of snow. I think that's what Canton got, but other surrounding areas had as much as thirty point nine inches. And the heaviest snow after it came after eight but before eight, before his body was found, there was a fair amount of it was probably six inches of exactly, but throughout the day they would get another, you know, ten fifteen inches of snow, So it was a lot of snow. Massachusetts. Obviously they know how to get rid of snow, but it was still a lot of time.

34:47 Yeah. The data from John's phone placed him outside of Brian Albert's house at twelve twenty four am. Jen McCabe called him at twelve twenty nine. The call lasted eight seconds, so we know that John was probably alive at twelve twenty nine. Out of all the people at the Albert's house that night, Jen McKay was the one that was closest to John. She was the one that had invited them over to the party. And do we know it was she at the Albert's house when she called him at twelve twenty nine. Okay, they left the bar between twelve and twelve fifteen, and then they headed over to the Albert's house. But John had never been to the Albert's house before. He wasn't sure how to get there. So Jen, because she was friends with him, she felt like responsible. So she's like calling him like, hey, do you need directions? I think she texted him once like park behind me. Okay, So she had probably just gotten there a few minutes earlier and was just calling him to make sure he was I believe that. Yeah, I think the first person that would have gotten there was at twelve fifteen. But we're going to get into it. But there were other people at the house already, Okay, some of their kids data from Karen's Lexus shows that the vehicle traveled backwards for sixty feet at twenty four miles per hour. We have talked about this, and you were. I gave you homework to try to drive twenty four miles per hour in reverse and I don't think you No, I haven't done that yet. I need an open space to do that. Great. It makes me a little nervous.

36:14 Yeah, I think that it's pretty hard to get to that rate of speed. Yeah. Broken pieces from the SUV's tail light were found near John's body. However, Karen's attorneys point to a home surveillance video that shows her leaving O'Keeffe's home early on the morning of January twenty ninth, and the tail light appears intact. So the tail light is another important piece of evidence in this case. And forgive me if I have gotten anything wrong here, because it's super confusing. So broken pieces from her car's tail light were found near him, yes, but surveying, not immediately because remember there's all this snow, okay, right, But still they were found near him. But I suppose is it possible that you could break your tail light but the light itself was still working? So yeah, it would look like it was intact from sance tail it is red, and then there's parts of it that are clear.

37:08 So some of the parts near John's body and in the yard were red and some were clear. Okay, so yeah it is. It is hard when you see the pictures of the vehicle because it might look like the tail light is intact when it's lit up, but in fact it isn't. Surveillance camera footage and cell phone data indicates that Karen likely drove past the Alberts home on fair Haven before she went to Jen McCabe's house early on the morning of January twenty ninth before so that's why she knew where his body was and was so quickly like there he is. There is interesting. Drops of John's blood were found in the snow. Investigators gathered the snow in six red solo cups borrowed from a neighbor who happened to be a police officer. That's probably not the best way together. At solo cups are not the standard for evidence gathering.

38:00 And then they were put in a paperback from a grocery store. Oh okay, and there's no lids on a solo cop No and they were defensive about this, and they said, yeah, that's what we had at the time. That's the best that we could do. Okay. On the fly, there was not a ton of blood at the crime scene. I've read as little as six drops. Okay. John was wearing a T shirt with a sweatshirt over it, jeans, no hat or coat, and one shoe. There was no snow under his body, but about four inches of snow covered his body when he was found. His cell phone lay under his body in the grass. Microscopic pieces of plastic from the tail light were found embedded in John's sweatshirt. There was also damage to the sleeves, but there was no evidence of canine DNA. There were blood stains on the sweatshirt. John's clothes were cut off his body. At the hospital. A leaf blower was used to blow snow away from the area where John's body was found. A broken, cut tailed glass was found about a foot from his body. One of his Nike sneakers was found nine feet from his body by the curb, covered in snow. Okay. Remember when John was leaving the bar, he had a drink with it. He had a cocktail glass with it. Okay, and a leaf flower to blow away the snow. What do you think about that? I mean, I think it's going to melt the snow and it's going to move around a bunch of potential evidence. So it could contaminate the scene a little bit too, because there's probably debris in the leaf flower.

39:28 Right. John was six foot two inches tall and weighed two hundred and seventeen pounds. He appeared to have been thrown a few feet from the road due to the impact of the car. Had a hard time locating exactly where his body was found, but it sounded like it was near the road, not on the road, not on the curb, but it was like a few feet away from the curb. Ok, kind of in a snow bank. Gotcha near a snow bank? I think because the plows had gone through and was just gonna ask you there. So there were snow banks already at that point. So not super you know, was it a ton of snow, But yeah, the plow had definitely gone through a few times. A strand of O'Keeffe's hair was found frozen onto the vehicle's bumper near the tail light.

40:12 Residue from a spilled cocktail was found on the bumper, as well as particles from the cocktail glass. No blood was found on the bumper. John's DNA was found on pieces of the tail light. There was some damage to Karen's lexus. Other than the tail light, investigators found a deep scratch and a dent on the right side of the rear tailgate and two scratches plus some chipped paint on the right side of the rear bumper. Karen's attorney, David Yannetti, pointed out two curious phone calls between Brian Albert and Brian Higgins, a friend and agent with the ATF Okay. Remember Brian Higgins is the one that Karen had been texting. Okay, she had the flirty relationship with and had Brian Albert and Brian Higgins. They had both been at the bar and the after party. Yeah yes. One call between the two was made at two twenty two am on January twenty ninth, from Brian Albert's phone to Brian Higgins's phone. The call lasted only one second. Albert called it a butt dial.

41:14 Seventeen seconds later, there was a second phone call that lasted twenty two seconds, this time from higgins phone to Albert's phone. So maybe Higgins was calling him back because he thought the other guy was trying to reach him. Yes, but they both called it a butt dial. There's a lot of there's several butt dials, a lot of butt dialing going on here, several butt dials. In this case. Brian Albert's sister in law, Jennifer McCabe, called O'Keeffe nine times on the night of January twenty eighth, between twelve fourteen and twelve fifty. She tried his number again in the morning. Investigators discovered a group text among the partygoers who were at Brian Albert's house that night after John's body was found. Matt McCabe texted the group quote, tell them the guy never went into the house unquote, Brian Albert replied, quote exactly.

42:05 The allegation is, and I was going to wait to tell you this is that these people conspired to kill John O'Keeffe, and like the group text messages awaited you know, for them to conspire and cover up his death. You say these people there were you said how many people there were twelve or twelve people at the party, and they were all twelve on the group text. I don't think so. I think so. Some of the people, and we're going to get to that in a minute, were teenagers, okay, or actually not just not teenagers, but they were young adults, okay. And then there's like kind of the parents that went back after the bar. Okay, do you think it's suspicious that I had a group text? Not necessarily no, right, they might have just wanted to just like it's really weird that this guy died at our house, and yeah, he was such a good guy, and and you know, the like the text message tell them the guy never went into the house, like you could read that is well, that's a little suspicious, But it's also like, well, if that's what happened, then it's not really that suspicios a little bit.

43:00 I guess I would need more context around it. But yeah, it does seem a little suspicious that someone is saying tell them anything, like, you know, tell them the truth, right, but don't say tell them the guy never, the guy never, you know, John never came into the house. But you're right that the wording is a little suspicious. The shards of broken tail light were not all found during the initial search of Brian Albert's property. Days later, on February fourth, twenty twenty two, Canton Police Chief Kenneth Berkowitz found several more pieces of the tail light after the snow began to melt. He said he was driving by the crime scene and saw the pieces from his car. His phone records indicate he called Brian Higgins later that day, and Higgins called Brian Albert Hmm, Okay, does that feel suspicious to you? Starting to feel a little bit suspicious to me. We're gonna mention this in a couple of minutes. But Karen's car, the Lexus, was police custody by this time. Okay, So the implication being that they could have taken some of her tail light and planted it there exactly, okay.

44:09 Karen's tailight has been a major source of speculation in the case, how and when it was broken, and how and when the pieces of the tail light were found at the crime scene. The first pieces weren't found until five thirty PM, about twelve hours after the investigation began. Coincidentally, Karen's Lexus was seized somewhere between four and five thirty, along with her cell phone. Her defense would later point to this, alleging that the pieces could have been planted. There is surveillance video of Karen leaving John's house in a rush to go search for him. In the surveillance video, Karen can be seen backing into John's car. John's car appeared to rock slightly, but it's unclear if her tail light was broken, although there was no damage to John's car and no pieces of tail light found on the driveway. To be clear, this is the next one, right, and we talked about this a little bit.

45:01 It's really hard to tell in the videos because not the complete red. There were still some red pieces there, so the light appeared to be somewhat red. Still, Okay, it's really hard to tell if it's broken or not. The police never searched Albert's home. They claimed there was no probable cause. What do you think of that? I think that is not right. I think they should have. I don't know why they wouldn't have, you know, because there was some probable cause. I mean, a man died right outside of the home, but he didn't die inside the home, and there was no evidence of him having been inside the home. This is another one of those red flags. And the case that people point to is like, well, you should have searched them. I mean, I mean, you just said there was no evidence of him being inside the home.

45:49 How would you know there was no evidence unless you searched the home. It's been brought up that a judge would not have granted a search warrant, which I question, Yeah, because there, I mean, you know, to get a search warrant, you we do have to prove that there's evidence, right, and he was invited to the house, but allegedly he never made it into the house. There was no yeah, okay, there were no observable injuries to Brian Albert, Brian Higgins, or Colin Albert. So if they'd had gotten into this big fight, you know, one of them would have had a black eye or a bruise, knuckle or something. Right. Massachusetts State Police Crime Lab Toxicology Unit performed a retrograde serum analysis on Karen Reid in the late morning of January twenty ninth to determine her blood alcohol level at twelve thirty am. I did not know this was possible. I was just gonna say that I did not know that was possible either. The time that she would have dropped John off at the Albert's home, her blood alcohol content was estimated to be between zero point one three five percent and zero point two nine two percent. At the time of the test, Karen's blood alcohol content was between point zero seven and point zero eight, and that was at nine am, so ars later she was still pretty close to Yeah, that's crazy.

47:05 So I did a little bit of research on blood alcohol content levels and its effects on your body. At point zero two, feelings of relaxation begin. Point zero four, you start feeling relaxed or buzzed. At point zero six, judgment starts going down and decision making is altered. That's probably when most people should quit, like if you could, definitely should probably not drive. If you get beyond that. At point zero eight, impairment of motor control happens, and you risk nausea from here on out. At point one zero, clear deterioration in judgment, coordination and reaction time at point one five too point two five you risk blackouts from here on out, and that's probably where Karen was at about twelve thirty am. Yeah, between point two five and point three five you risk blacking out, and there is a risk of death. At point three zero or higher point four zero to point four or five is generally considered a lethal dose. Okay, remind us where Karen was.

48:12 She was between point one three five and point two nine two, so definitely getting close to that point when she could have been potentially blacking out. I know it's relative to your size, but she's a very small person. Yeah. Daniel Medweb, a professor of law and criminal justice at Northeastern University and an expert on wrongful convictions, called the investigation flawed and accused Massachusetts State trooper Michael Procter, the lead investigator in the Karen Reid case, of having tunnel vision. Medweed told NBC News quote, the way that we see the evidence is tinged by our expectations and our theory of the case. It seems as if the police did develop a theory pretty early that Karen Reid committed the crime. As the case evolved, there might have been other avenues of investigation that they didn't pursue. If there are missteps and sloppiness in a murder investigation involving the death of a police officer, what does that suggest about the process In a more run of the mill case with a civilian victim, this should be caused for concern and some evaluation unquote confirmation bias. It's not a good thing if you are a police officer. That happens a lot though. Oh yeah, I'm sure it does. It's human nature, right, You think something and then you start to look for evidence to support what you're thinking instead of the other way around. But that's not how you're trained as a police officer. And we have to remember in this case, John O'Keefe was a police officer and I'm sure they wanted to do a good job for him.

49:45 Yeah, we will get into Michael Proctor and you are going to be shocked. Oh boy, have you heard? Do you know the name Michael? Know nothing about him? It's pretty shocking. Okay. A problematic issue in this case is whether or not John O'Keeffe went into the Albert's house that night. Yeah, that seems problematic and this part is confusing, so bear with me. Data from John's phone shows that he took one hundred and seventy steps between the time he left the Waterfall Bar at twelve eleven am until twelve twenty one am. His phone data does not place him at thirty four Fairview Road, the Elbert's house until twelve twenty four am. He took an additional eighty steps between twelve twenty one and twelve twenty four am. The data also shows that he climbed three flights of stairs between twelve twenty two and twelve twenty four am. But it's misleading because he wasn't He seemed to not have been in the house at that time, right, So how did he climb stairs?

50:49 Well, he seemed to have not been in the house. But this is an issue to me. This is a big question and I'm not an expert on cell phone data, but it is the location that accurate that they can say he was not in the house, I mean or cam And that's the problem. We don't know, yeah, because in other cases it seems like they are always saying that, well, you know, he was in this area or whatever, but it's not that exact. I think people are pointing to the stairs, like how did he climb three flights of stairs? Right? And did the Alberts home have multiple levels? I believe so. By the theory and we'll get to it, is that he went down the stairs to the basement. And your Apple watch, your Apple health data, it counts ascending stairs, not descending stairs. If he went down, he would have had to come back up. Well, that's he didn't go back up.

51:42 Though. The theory is that he was killed in the basement. Oh okay, so he would not have walked back up the stairs. He did not walk at him. He would have been carried back up. People point to the stair data as proof that he was in the house. But you know, I have an Apple Watch, and you know, you go on a walk sometimes and it shows that you've been upstairs. Oh, if you just go up on a walk that is on an incline, it might think you went upstairs. And I think it's based on your arm movement. I couldn't. I could definitely be wrong about that. Yeah, And sometimes my apple Watch will be like, oh, you own up fourteen flights of stairs today, and I'll be like, well, no, I did. And sometimes some days I know that I climbed more stairs and I'll be like, no, you climb five right, yes, today, So it's not accurate.

52:23 And as far as the location. Remember one time when our daughter when she was she was in height, she was sixteen and she was taking courses at the college and she had just gotten her driver's license, and it made me really nervous. So I tracked her location all the time, and one time it showed her, like I don't know, it was miles and miles away from campus, and I was so freaked out. I remember that that I called the office and they had to send some nice woman went and checked on her for me and was like, no, she's sitting in class. And so, yeah, the location isn't perfect, but I think it's, you know, pretty good. You would hope that cell phone data is objective, but it's not, and that's really frustrating because you would think, oh, it's an electronic device, this is the way it works, but it's not as cut and dry. Yeah. Sure, I think in these cases it gets really frustrating because as we get to the trial, you'll see that there's contradicting beliefs and statements and information, right, so it's hard for us to analyze that information and come up with a good theory. Yeah, if he was hit by the car and his body was projected, I wonder if that could have counted for the three flights up stairs, because even if he was in the Albert's home, I don't think that he would have climbed three flights up stairs. Yeah, that I was thinking the same thing. That doesn't seem likely that he would have climbed three flights of stairs in any circumstance.

53:52 And I think that a flight of stairs has to be fifteen steps. I think I read that some much we only thing I was going to ask you is the Albert's home, was there an incline up the driveway like that he could have walked up the driveway. Maybe it's hard to tell from the pictures I've seen, but it looks fairly flat to me. Yeah, maybe a slight incline, but not three stories worth of incline. Exactly. Eleven witnesses that were at the Albert's home that night signed a statement that John never entered the Albert's home. But if you're to believe the conspiracy, well, of course they all sign the statement because they were all conspiring. It's a lot of people to be in on a conspiracy. I wanted to go over evidence in the case that I think is it's like proven, we know that it's true John is dead. John and Karen were having relationship issues. John and Karen both had a lot to drink On January twenty eighth, and Karen should not have been driving. Do we know what John's blood alcohol level was?

54:51 His BAC was about point two. Oh, okay, so he was quite drunk. Yeah, and so both of their judgments were impaired. Their motor skills were slowed, right, And I should point out too that I think several parties involved were also fairly intoxicated. Yeah, it should not have been driving. Karen's tailight was broken and charts of plastic were found at the scene. How they got there is kind of in question. We aren't certain what happened between about twelve thirty and six am. Those are the hours in question. John had two black eyes, a fractured skull, and bruised knuckles. His injuries appear to be more likely from a fight than being hit by a vehicle. Do you agree with that? I mean, definitely, the black eyes and the bruised knuckles for shure bruising below the ways. The injuries that you showed me in the picture of his arm do not look like they came from a fight. I don't know what those would have come from though.

55:45 Well, the dog like people are, they don't look like they came from a dog either, So that's why I'm saying, what do you think they came from. I don't know. I think it's possible. They look like dog scratches, maybe not bites. I think it seems really unlikely. They were far enough apart that I don't think a dog's claw, would you know, it seems like they would be closer together. Okay, here's a couple of facts that I haven't told you yet. The Elberts home was sold and their basement was It wasn't remodeled, but the flooring was replaced. They said it was due to a flood they sold their home. They did that before they sold the home, Yes, okay. They said that they had talked to a realtor before the incident with John had occurred, and they had planned on selling their house. Their home was listed in November twenty twenty two for a nine hundred and fifty thousand dollars and sold for nine hundred thousand dollars in April, and Chloe the dog was rehomed to a farm in Vermont, m Okay. Do you think those things are suspicious? Not necessarily. I think that the fact that they did not search the home is not good, But the fact that they put a new floor in and that doesn't seem that there was allegedly a flood and that's why they had to replace the flooring, But the dog being rehomed. They'd had the dog for several years. She'd had a few incidents with biting, So I mean, I guess it depends on where they moved to. Maybe they moved to a place that they couldn't have a dog that I think Chloe wasn't able to be located, and I think people have been suspicious about that. Some of the evidence in the case

57:15 is questionable, such as John entering the house or not. The scratches on his arm, were they from a dog or could they have been from the shards of plastic or whatever else something else. The part of we did wonder if like he was lying in the cold long enough, could it have been from a raccoon or some other wild animal. If John was hit by a car, why was there no bruising below the waist. In the next episode, I'm going to introduce you to some more questionable evidence. Okay, that's going to drive you nuts, but I think that's what we're going to have to end for today. Okay, Well, I am intrigued This is a super intriguing case. I have to say, when you first started, I was like, Oh, it's obvious, she's guilty. She hit him with the car. But now I'm questioning it. But I'm withholding judgment until we get through everything. People have really strong opinions on this case on both sides, and I can completely understand how you can get to Karen's guilty and Karen's innocent. I can see both sides. Yeah, I think I would have been a great juror. Yeah, those jurors, Oh, they went through it. I can imagine. Well, we haven't said it yet, but I guess you can. Yeah. I think we all know there was a trial. Yes, this case is tough. There's a lot of evidence, there's a lot of people involved, and they're all intertwined. There's a couple of Brian's, there's a lot of people with the last name Albert. Well.

58:43 There's just a lot of questions about interpreting the evidence and whether the evidence is, whether you can believe everything or not, or what you know. It just makes it hard when you don't know what to believe and what not to believe. We'll stick with us and hopefully the next episode will be able to clarify some things. Okay, I'll stick with you. Okay, thanks, you don't have a choice. I wanted to give a thank you again to Sam and Tim for the snackt Aali thank you Sam and Tim. That was so amazing. And our kids came in and they really loved all the snacks very great. Well, they didn't get the kinder Joy because that was gone, but they liked the other It was delicious. I'll let them put together, Ron Weasley, though, I'm not sure we're going to wrap this up in one more episode or if it's going to have to be three parts.

59:31 Okay, there's a lot to cover either way. I'm here. I'm here for it. You've got another trip coming up in two days I leave, Oh my God, to go to How you do it? It's a lot. I'm going to Paris again. Yeah, and your trip is coinciding with the Olympics. Isn't that amazing? Like I was so surprised, and my company basically let me know a few weeks ago, Hey, you need to be in Paris for the week of July twenty third. I was like, wait a minute, The Olympics start that week in Paris. Yeah, So what are you going to go see? I know you're going to go see a few events without me because I'm going to be home. I wish I was going with you. I wish we would have planned. I'll send you a picture. Oh well, you know what they say, a picture is just as good as being there. It's going to be on TV.

1:00:16 You'll actually be able to watch a lot more events than I'll be too. But I do love the Olympics. I like the Olympics a lot too. I'm only going to be there for so I'm going to be there the day before the opening ceremony and there are events that day. Competing in any events? Are you I might get called in if if needed, I'm ready, but right now, as of right now, no, I am not competing in anything but the day before the opening ceremony. There's not a ton going on. But I think I'm going to see handball, which I do even know, and I'm going to see what's called rugby sevens, which I had never heard of. I've heard of rugby, but I didn't know what rugby seven's was. And it's like a short, little like a fifteen minute rugby.

1:00:59 Matt, I thought you were going to say seven minute rugby. I don't know why they called rugby seventh. I really don't know anything about rugby. Yeah, I don't know much either, other than that it looks a little leg football. But and then it's a rough sport, right Yeah. And then the day of the opening ceremony, which is Friday, there are no events that day, so I'm just going to be hanging around. And the opening ceremony is really expensive, so I'm not planning how expensive, like a thousand dollars minimum for a ticket, so I'm not going to do that. I am going to ask you to promise me on air that when the Olympics are in Los Angeles in four years that we will go in some capacity. I promise you we will go when it's on my bucket list. I've always wanted to go to the Olympics. Yeah, I think it would be cooler to go to Paris, but I'll Los Angeles is cool too. Well.

1:01:43 Intimidating though, just getting around. I don't know how to ride very good traveler. I try not to let anything intimidate me if I can, but everything intimidates me. So that's where we're different. Yeah, But then the day after the opening ceremony, I'll be going to badminton and you're quite a good you could get called in. I'm that. Yeah, and beach volleyball, which I won't get called in for that men's are women's. I don't know, I have no idea. It's just beach volleyball. And then I have a slot in the middle of the day that i'm I'm looking for tickets and I don't know yet, and maybe table tennis. Who knows, So no one has asked. But we've had our peloton now for over a month and you're probably quite the cyclist right now. I could probably do cycling if I get called in for that one. Speaking of peloton, we're both pretty obsessed we're doing I think we're doing great. I'm really happy and our progress so far. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun. And I know pelotons are expensive and the app is expensive. I think it's like forty five dollars a month, which is kind of ridiculous, but we really hadn't spent any of our podcast money, so we're like, oh, we might as well make a big purchase. Yeah, and it's I've really enjoyed it.

1:02:52 It's not like fun, Like, yeah, it's just but it's like all right, I did it. Yeah, Like whereas before I think with like work out, so it was like I don't want to go workout, and well I still do that, but then I'm once you get on the bike, and once I get on the bike sometimes I'm like, yeah, I'm going to do another ten to fifteen minutes. So I really like it a lot too. Usually for me, like any kind of hobby or activity, the kiss of death is when I spend money on it. So like if I get into like golf or something, I buy expensive golf clubs, then I usually stop golfing shortly after that. But so far it's been a month. I mean it's funny six years, but six years we're still using our peloton. I feel really optimistic about it. Yeah, so it's been fun. So if you're on the fence about it, I would I recommend it. I think it's pretty cool. On the apps if you don't have the bike, you can still use And sounds like we're they're paying it.

1:03:37 They're not. We're just saying this, But I think the app is pretty good too, like some of the like there's plates and there's yoga and there's weights and you can do it on your treadmill meditation. Again, it sounds like I'm selling it, but if you have a different spin bike, you could you know, definitely use that with a peloton app. So yeah, and you were very against anything that has a month fee, and so am I. But well, my boss Dave, he is like obsessed with peloton. He talks about really nothing else. And that kind of made me. That kind of made me like, you know, push back, like I wanted to be stubborn and be like, well I'm not going to do that then, but you know you can. You can live, and you can learn and grow. And we'll talk to us in six months and see where we're at. We might be like, it's a fancy clothes singer, So I don't. I have been doing it pretty much. We've both been doing it pretty much every day. Yeah, and I'm not sure if I'm going to keep up doing it every day because you know, life is busy.

1:04:31 Yeah. Okay, sorry if we went on about our workout schedule too much, But go USA. I hope you have a great time. Oh thanks, I look forward to the pictures. Maybe we can post some pictures for our listeners. Yeah, well, I should also mention when I get back from Paris, I'm going to Columbus, Ohio for a really quick no. But but we have covered two cases very close to Columbus, so the piked In massacre that he just recently did, but then also Matthew Moore and Emily Noble case we did like a year ago. Oh yeah, and I actually I'm planning to go to the location where her body was found just to get a visual of Oh really kind of the Yeah, it's probably changed quite a bit. I doubt it. I mean, it's just it's a wooded area, so I wouldn't think so, but I will. I will also take pictures of that. Oh well, okay, Well, thank you so much for listening and hanging out with us today. If you would like to hear all three parts of this case right now, consider supporting us on patreon dot com slash Love Mary Kill five dollars a month, and we give you early access, ad free episodes, and a monthly bonus episode. Please rate, review, follow and subscribe, find us on social media, or send us an email at Love Mary Kill at gmail dot I'm tired. I almost forgot our email until next time, don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife.

1:06:03 The companion to the