Karen Read and John O'Keefe - Part 1 of 3

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Hi. I'm Tina and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned

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in over twenty years of marriage,
it's that some days you'll feel like killing

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your wife and some days you'll feel
like killing your husband. Welcome to love,

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Mary Kill Hi Rich, Hi Tena. You sound a little down.

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It's just the prime day. Deals
were popping this week, and I got

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some new over the ear yeah headphones
that we use while we're podcasting, because

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the other ones made like these weird
creaky noises that drove me crazy. And

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these are actually really good. But
this is the weirdest thing. They barely

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fit my head. Mm hmmm.
Why do you think that is because they

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have a big brain. I'm serious, Like, I'm in the largest setting

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and they they're fine, but I
wish there was like just a I need

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but more room. Yeah, you
do have a big brain. Well reminds

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me of a quick story one time. I think I don't remember it was

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their son, it was their daughter. I think in her head was measuring

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off the charts and I was asking
the doctor like, gosh, why is

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your head so big? They just
laughed and were like, well, have

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you seen your head? And then
she actually measured my head and then showed

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me the Book of averages. So
it's that I do have. Yeah,

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but you're not going to make fun
of me, are you, because you

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definitely have a large heads. We
have a family of large headed people.

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Large headed people tend to be more
successful, That's what I tell myself,

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right, Yeah, but anyway,
Yeah, it's a little weird that,

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like I'm on the biggest setting and
that's I'm not even joking. That's where

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I don't wear hats people are in
the winter, Like, why do they

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don't make them in my size?
Well, your hair is not small either,

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so right, but today it's all
like pushed. I don't know,

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I don't know. We got a
snack in the mail. We have this

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big, large box, I know, and it took a I think you

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picked it up a couple of weeks
ago and we haven't opened it. But

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some really sweet listeners, American listeners
who happen to be living in Italy,

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sent us a big box of Stax. They come from Sam and Tim.

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Tim I believe is from Michigan.
Oh cool, it's a big box.

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And this is a two part episode. I think probably two parts. Okay,

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we haven't opened it yet. We
haven't opened it, and I know

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there's a lot of stuff, so
I'm just going to try to not look

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too hard. And Sam did send
a nice note saying that there's some sort

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of special Cheeto product in here,
your favorite Cheetos. Okay, So I'm

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just going to try to like maybe
grab three things out of the box,

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okay, without looking too much.
Okay, So I didn't think about having

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to pronounce these things. But so
far three things I picked out were in

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Atala biscuits and these pistachios biochi biochi
pistachios. Oh, some sort of cookie

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pistachio cookies. And a Kinderjoy Oh
cool? And Italia, Oh, a

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hairy pot Kinderjoy. Do you know
what those are? I'm not sure.

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Kids for Christmas? Like a chocolate
eggs. A chocolate egg there's usually a

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toy inside, like a little toy. Cool. Okay, we'll be right

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back. Those were so good,
it was really really good. I read

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them all out of ten. How
about you, Well, they were all

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really really good, but I'm going
to give a little bit of a scale

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because I think the the kinder what
is it called kinder Joy? Out of

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ten, I don't think i'd ever
opened I don't think i'd ever eaten one.

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I think I've bought them for our
kids. And then there's a cute

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little Ron Weasley inside that you can
make, which is so cute. That's

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delicious. And then the other two, the nutella and the Bayochi or whatever

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however it's pronounced. I'm going to
say like nine out of ten. They're

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really good too. I always say
the pistachio might have been Maybe I'd give

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that a nine. The Natella biscuits
which we had in the US, and

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I think we bought them. They're
different. I think it was more of

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like a sandwich cookie, and this
was it was really interesting. I actually

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really like the pistassio ones too.
They're very like light and like shortbread cookie

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type of thing. But really,
let's go Italy, all right, Well,

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thank you so much, Samantha.
We can't thank you enough for that

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kind gift. Yeah, and there's
a whole bunch of other stuff in there.

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Wait. I don't think there's any
more kinder joys though. There's only

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why I think you might be lying
to me. Okay, So as much

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as I'd like to sit here and
eat Italian snacks all day. I'm going

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to tell you a story. And
how familiar are you with this story?

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I know we've talked about it a
little bit. I know it's been in

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the news a lot. I've seen
like headlines, but I have I know

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nothing, and I've tried intentionally tried
not to learn anything because I like to

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be educated by you. The Karen
Read murder trial has captivated the country.

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Karen is accused of hitting her boyfriend, Boston Police officer John o'keeth and anger

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after a night drinking with friends with
her Lexus SUV when she dropped him off

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at a friend's house just after midnight
on January twenty ninth, twenty twenty two,

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as a blizzard slammed the town of
Canton, Massachusetts. That was a

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run on sentence, if there's ever
been a run on celsits. After the

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alleged incident, Karen left the scene
of the crime. Her defense made the

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bold claim that the Massachusetts State Police
and the Canton Police Department conspired to cover

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up John's murder to protect two law
enforcement agents, Brian Higgins and Brian Albert,

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and Brian's seventeen year old nephew Colin
Albert. They argued that the trio

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beat John and left him in the
snow to die by planting evidence and coaching

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witnesses. I want to caution listeners
that if you listened to the entire trial,

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all thirty two days of testimony,
we're not going to do that here.

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We're going to tell you the important
facts and about all the parties involved,

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but we're not going to go super
duper deep. And a lot of

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people have been super obsessed with this
trial, right, so there probably are

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people out there who have listened to
the whole trial and know every detail and

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every fact, right, you probably
will be disappointed in our podcast. Then

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it's good to set expectations low before
I get into to do that every episode.

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But I think we're going to have
a good discussion and I'm going to

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tell you a lot of the highlights. I mean, we're going fairly in

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depth, but there are some people
that are just there's so much information,

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and something that is limiting to us
is that we have I've been working on

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this pretty hard for two weeks.
I mean I could work on it for

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months and months and still not do
it justice exactly. I'm a little afraid

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turtle Boy is going to come after
us. I'm going to tell you all

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about Turtle Boy in a little bit. And I have seen on other podcasts

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that they've gotten bad reviews if they
disagreed with the popular Oh. Okay,

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So I'm going to try to reserve
as much opinion and give you as many

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of the facts as we can.
Okay. John JJ O'Keeffe was born on

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December eighth, nineteen seventy five,
in Braintree, Massachusetts. He graduated from

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Braintree High School, attended college at
Northeastern University, and later earned his master's

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degree in criminal justice from the University
of Massachusetts. John was a sixteen year

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veteran of the Boston Police Department.
He became a Boston Police officer following in

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his beloved grandfather's footsteps. John Jackson, a close friend of O'Keefe's, told

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The Boston Globe that John was quote
made to be a cop. He was

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always the responsible friend in the group. John was a diehard Boston sports fan

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and never missed Opening Day at Fenway
Park. Boston sports fans seem like they're

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kind of a job. I mean, I know a lot of cities have

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adamant sports fans, but Boston seems
to be among the most enthusiastics right sure.

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In twenty fourteen, John became the
guardian to his niece Kiley and nephew

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Patrick, when they were just six
and three. In a tragic turn of

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events for the family's sister, Kristin
O'Keefe, Furbush, thirty nine, died

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of an aggressive brain tumor in November
twenty thirteen. Her husband, Steve,

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and Furbush, also thirty nine,
died of a heart attack just two months

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later in January twenty fourteen. Gosh, isn't that so sad? That it's

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horrible? Those poor kids? I
know. John moved from his Boston bachelor

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pad to the suburbs to care for
his niece and nephew and took a safer

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nine to five job within the police
department, working in the sex offender Registry

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unit. The Canta community raised nearly
three hundred and forty thousand dollars for the

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children after John's death. When John's
best friend and former partner died by suicide

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just eight days after his sister's death, John supported his pregnant girlfriend, Laura

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Sullivan, and became godfather to her
son He was the first person in the

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delivery room after she gave birth,
and he has always been there for her

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and his godson. I just get
like emotional thinking about everything that he's been

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through and the kids have been through. So when I wrote this case,

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I had them on my mind the
whole time. They've just been through so

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much. The phrase It's only a
movie is etched onto John's tombstone. His

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brother said it was a favorite catchphrase
of John's that helped him process the craziness

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of life. A statement released by
the Boston Police Department on behalf of his

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family said quote, John was not
only a dedicated police officer, he was

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an exemplary guardian, son, brother, uncle, and friend and we were

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so fortunate to have him as part
of our lives. People talk about someone

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who would give you the shirt off
their back, and that was truly who

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John was, and it is heartbreaking
for us to suddenly be talking about him

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in the past tense. We appreciate
the outpouring of support we have received,

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but we asked for privacy during this
time, and we will have nothing else

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to say as we mourn this unbearable
loss. The family has been through a

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lot, and the focus in this
case has been on Karen Reid and whether

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she's guilty or not. And I
think John has gotten lost. Yeah,

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a little bit does happen, doesn't
it. Yeah. John's former partner called

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him, quote the best person on
the planet. Here's Karen Reid talking to

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Nightline about John O'Keefe. I would
call him the patron saint of Canton.

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He was this very selfless, frugal
and I think you'd be hard pressed to

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find anyone that didn't care for John. Karen Reid has been painted as a

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sinner or a saint, depending on
who you ask. The truth is likely

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somewhere in between. Karen was born
in nineteen seventy five. She grew up

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in Blacksburg, Virginia, and Taunton, Massachusetts. In Taunton, she attended

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a private Catholic school and later attended
Bentley College in Waltham, Massachusetts, where

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her father was the dean of the
business school. I spent a lot of

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time in Waltham, Massachusetts. One
of my favorite monks we have is from

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Bentley College. Yeah. She graduated
in three years and then earned a master's

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degree in finance. Karen Reid most
recently worked as an equity animal for Fidelity

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Investments, and was also a part
time professor at her alma mater, Bentley

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College, where she taught finance.
She owns a home in Mansfield, Massachusetts,

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about an hour southwest of Boston and
forty minutes northwest of Providence, Rhode

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Island. In twenty twenty, Karen
and her elderly neighbors had several disputes,

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mostly noise complaints, that resulted in
law enforcement being called. In recent years,

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Karen has suffered from myriad medical issues, including Crohn's disease, which resulted

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in temporary blindness and required ten surgeries
and a colostomy bag. When Karen was

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thirty five, she was diagnosed with
multiple sclerosis and later a benign brain tumor.

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Friends and colleagues have called Karen funny
and generous. She's been through some

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tough things since it sounds like it. At the time of John's death,

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he and Karen had been dating for
about two years. They had dated briefly

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in two thousand and four, when
Karen was twenty four and John twenty eight.

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They broke up when Karen moved to
Dublin, Ireland for work. They

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reconnected in March twenty twenty, at
the beginning of COVID, when John messaged

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Karen on Facebook. Karen was impressed
with John's relationship with his niece and nephew.

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She helped with the kids and spent
most nights at his house, but

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she still owned her own home.
She liked to spoil the kids, and

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sometimes John grew angry with her for
over indulging them. Karen sometimes felt that

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John took advantage of her and used
her for child care purposes. Karen and

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John traveled to Aruba for vacation with
his niece and nephew, Kaylee and Patrick,

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and about thirty friends to ring in
the New Year, just weeks before

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John's death. So Kayley and Patrick, I refer to them as niece and

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nephew, but I think they were
like a son and a daughter to John

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because he'd raised them. They'd been
with him for ten years at this point,

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so yeah, I'm not sure if
they called him dad or not,

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but he was definitely a dad figure
right. Other family members had offered to

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take Kayley and Patrick, but John
was adamant that he wanted to raise them.

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Karen and John reportedly fought often during
the trip. Karen grew upset because

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she thought she saw John kissing Marietta
Sullivan in the hotel lobby. Marietta is

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the sister of Laura Sullivan, who
is the girlfriend of John's former partner.

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Remember we talked about Laura and how
John was there at the birth of her

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son and he was the son's godfather, right. Both John and Marietta denied

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the kiss, explaining that they were
just hugging, but Karen walked into the

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lobby yelling and using expletives at them. Marietta said John was like a brother

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and she was on the trip with
her boyfriend. Karen later apologized for her

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reaction and offered to partially pay for
Marietta's hotel room. Karen saw them in

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the lobby, and you know,
it's a big hotel in the lobby,

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and why would they be kissing in
the lobby. First of all, every

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especially her boyfriend was there too,
That would be a little odd. Karen

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said, what the fuck is going
on? And then John introduced them,

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and Karen said fuck you to Maryetta, and then Mary said fuck you back.

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And yeah, it sounds like it
was kind of a scene. I

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guess, so paying paying for someone's
hotel room based on that seems a little

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seems a little over the top for
an apology, like, I'm sorry I

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yelled at you. Let me pay
for your hotel room, well, partially

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pay partially. I think she fell
badly and I think she realized that maybe

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she made a mistake. Yeah,
but we'll see, maybe maybe not.

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Laura asked John if he was happy
on the trip, and he said,

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quote, it is what it is
unquote. When she asked John if he

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wanted to go on the trip again
the following year, he responded, quote,

203
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let me recover from this trip first. Karen and John fought frequently,

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sometimes over the children. O'Keefe's now
teenage niece and nephew both testified to the

205
00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:56.879
frequent heated arguments between Karen and John
two or three times a week. John

206
00:14:56.960 --> 00:15:00.879
reportedly recently attempted to break up with
Karen, but they they had patched things

207
00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:05.720
up. John's niece, Cayley,
testified that she had recently heard him tell

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00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:11.559
Karen quote that their relationship had run
its course and that it isn't healthy unquote.

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00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:15.919
He was unhappy with their constant fighting. She refused to leave the house

210
00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:20.679
and didn't want the relationship to end. Patrick, John's nephew, testified that

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Karen was mean sometimes and when she
was angry, she would give him the

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00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:28.879
silent treatment and not talk to him
for days. Brian Higgins, an ATF

213
00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:33.240
agent, had a flirtation with Karen
Reid. He and John O'Keefe were friends.

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00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:37.840
Two weeks before John's death, Brian
went to his house to watch a

215
00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:41.120
Patriots game. When he was leaving, Karen walked him out to his car

216
00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:46.840
and kissed him. He described the
kiss as quote not like a friend.

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00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:50.200
He said he was taken aback by
the kiss. After the kiss, the

218
00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:56.320
two began sending flirty texts. One
night, Karen went to Brian's house to

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00:15:56.360 --> 00:16:02.519
discuss their blossoming relationship. Some fifty
six pages of texts were recovered between Karen

220
00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:07.759
and Brian. The text began on
January twelfth, twenty twenty two. Brian

221
00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:11.000
was forced to read some of the
texts at the trial. He said he

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00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:12.919
was not proud of the messages,
and I think we're going to get to

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00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:18.600
those in the next episode when we
get to the trial. Karen began confiding

224
00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:22.080
in Brian and told him that her
relationship with John was less than perfect.

225
00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:26.000
And she wasn't sure how much longer
they would last. She said the kids

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00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:30.240
were spoiled and she felt like John
used her for daycare. In the days

227
00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:37.759
leading up to John's death, it
seemed that Karen had ghosted. Brian Nicholas

228
00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:41.759
Colocythus was at the Waterfall Bar and
Grill on the night of January twenty eighth,

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00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:45.679
twenty twenty two. He described the
mood between Karen and John. He

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00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:48.799
said, quote, they were affectionate
towards each other, loving towards each other,

231
00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:52.720
to the point where my wife even
made a comment she said, why

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00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:56.720
are you not like that with me? End quote. It sounds like maybe

233
00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:00.000
they were hot and cold with each
other. Sounds that way, or maybe

234
00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:03.039
there was some alcohol involved. Could
be that too. On the morning of

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January twenty eighth, Karen and John
had had a fight. I think it

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00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:11.559
was over what the kids had eaten
for breakfast. They exchanged some terse text

237
00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:15.279
messages throughout the day before meeting up
later at the bar. So to give

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00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:19.279
you a sense of how the relationship
between Karen and John was going, We're

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00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:22.839
going to read those text messages.
Well, you know, I love some

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00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:29.200
true crime theater. It's been a
minute. The first text is from January

241
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:33.000
twenty eighth at nine forty nine am, and I guess I'll beat Karen.

242
00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:37.640
You really hurt me this time.
I'm sorry. This has been an issue

243
00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:41.359
with me for eight years. It
physically hurts me to see everyone else in

244
00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:45.279
their life do things for them,
and I'm forced to always be the bad

245
00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:48.480
guy. I am not the same
as everyone else. Most of the time.

246
00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:52.200
I try to do what is healthy
slash smart for them. More importantly,

247
00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:56.079
I try to support you and what
you need. You just lashed out

248
00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:00.359
at me and said some terrible things. I don't know how you I've gotten

249
00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.759
to this point with me when I'm
just trying my hardest, you make your

250
00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:07.079
point and continue to beat me down. I have a lot going on too

251
00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:11.720
physically. I am falling apart and
trying to get answers and help. I

252
00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:15.640
am just your girlfriend. I am
not a perfect parent. I'm trying very

253
00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:19.799
hard and sometimes treat them nothing like
I used to. What does she mean

254
00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:23.880
treat them nothing like I used to? She probably used to spoil them more,

255
00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:26.519
and now she's treating them more like
a parent that she's been around for

256
00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:32.079
a few years, and probably more
comfortable in that role. Okay, what

257
00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:34.359
time are you coming here? I
don't know what time. Feel kind of

258
00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:38.000
out of it, just trying to
clear my head. Okay, text me

259
00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:44.319
when you guys. Settle in later. Sure at two sixteen pm. I

260
00:18:44.359 --> 00:18:47.960
feel pretty shitty about how this morning
went down. I know you said sorry,

261
00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:51.640
but it really stung, especially when
I've been trying pretty hard lately.

262
00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:55.680
I feel like a loser turning around, just coming back over after everything you've

263
00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:57.640
said. Not sure what else you
want me to do. I said,

264
00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:00.160
I'm sorry, and I was out
a line, and if you prefer to

265
00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:03.720
stay home, I totally get it. Things in my own life have been

266
00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:07.559
difficult too, you know, I
know, tell me if you are interested

267
00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:11.880
in someone else. Can't think of
any other reason you've been like this.

268
00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:15.160
Nope, things haven't been great between
us for a while. Ever, consider

269
00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:19.519
that kids are here, not in
the mood to talk, so you're not

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00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:23.319
into it anymore. That's fine,
but I don't want to keep trying and

271
00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:26.720
you keep treating me like this.
I'm trying to hug and kiss you this

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00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:30.960
morning and you whack me in the
face with a pillow last night. You're

273
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:33.839
basically like, yeah, what about
when we talk about the future, So

274
00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:37.440
why don't you just admit it You're
not into it so much anymore. Not

275
00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:41.279
how it went down, but okay, can you please admit your head is

276
00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:45.039
out of the game with us,
sick of always arguing and fighting. It's

277
00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:48.279
been weekly for several months now,
so yeah, I'm not as quick to

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00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:53.240
jump back into being lovey dovey as
you apparently. OMG, stop calling?

279
00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:57.200
Then why would you start with me
this morning? You're setting me up to

280
00:19:57.240 --> 00:20:02.680
fail. You started a number fights
from your end. I've explained it a

281
00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:06.880
few times already, not doing it
again. So you're not into this anymore?

282
00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:11.000
Not into fighting all the time?
Correct? If you're telling me you're

283
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:14.480
interested in someone else, you'll never
hear from me again. You can have

284
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:18.200
all the space in the world.
I am not answering. Stop calling.

285
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:22.880
Can you please answer? After how
you treated me earlier? Kayley is right

286
00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:26.000
here. You start a rager with
me out of nowhere, and then you

287
00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.359
tell me you're sick of fighting with
me. I'm going to grab a drink

288
00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:33.559
in a bit. Can you please
answer? No? Karen, not sure

289
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:37.680
why you need to announce that you're
grabbing a drink, but have fun seeing

290
00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:41.319
if you want to meet me later, can you please call me? Have

291
00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:45.680
to take them to the doctor.
He has practice. Yeah, five minutes.

292
00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:49.279
My father just walked in. Okay, can you please call me for

293
00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:53.799
two minutes? Not right now.
I'm there when anyone else needs me.

294
00:20:55.720 --> 00:20:59.119
Yes, John, you gave me
utter grief this morning. I'd like you

295
00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:02.359
to call me for a minute.
I've been trying to get over the hump

296
00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:06.319
with this arguing and now you're telling
you you're not into things and you don't

297
00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:08.279
want to fight weekly, but fly
off the handle at eight am with me

298
00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:12.880
like you're setting me up to fail. What do you think of the relationship

299
00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:18.839
between Karen and John? It just
sounds really dysfunctional and toxic and exhausting.

300
00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:23.960
It reminds me of the relationship I
had before I met you in my very

301
00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:29.519
early twenties. Oh, insecure all
the time and always you know, just

302
00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:32.720
let's just break up then if you're
not you know that, The fact that

303
00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:34.759
she keeps jumping back to you if
there's someone else, when he never said

304
00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:38.440
anything about someone else or you know, anything like that, and she just

305
00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:44.519
wanted to go there though Kiaren was
a spicy woman. Okay, doesn't she

306
00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:48.480
come across as fiery and oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, the text

307
00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:52.599
messages that we just read happened earlier
in the day, on the day that

308
00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:56.720
he died. Okay. Karen forty
one awoke around four thirty am in the

309
00:21:56.720 --> 00:22:02.319
morning on January twenty ninth, twenty
two. She had fallen asleep on John's

310
00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:06.480
couch, dressed in the previous night's
clothes, her head pounding in her throat

311
00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:10.480
dry. It took her a moment
to get her bearings the previous night started

312
00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:14.359
to come back to her. She
and John forty six had started the night

313
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:18.720
at c. F. McCarthy's and
later went to the Waterfall Bar in Canton

314
00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:22.200
to meet up with friends. So
this was after the text message exchanged,

315
00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:27.640
so they obviously patch. Karen and
John were celebrating the acceptance of Kaylee into

316
00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:32.359
a private high school. Everyone in
the group at the Waterfall in had had

317
00:22:32.440 --> 00:22:37.200
several drinks before they headed to Nicole
and Brian Albert's house for an after party

318
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:41.000
just a five minute drive from the
bar. Light snow had begun to fall

319
00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:45.680
during the evening and continued into the
night. John O'Keefe was seen on surveillance

320
00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.960
camera leaving the bar with a drink
in his hand. On the way to

321
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:52.920
Brian's house, Karen and John got
into a fight in the car. Karen

322
00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:59.359
drove despite her blood alcohol level likely
being significantly above the legal limit. A

323
00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:03.480
bartender later said that he'd served her
four to six drinks, but prosecutors would

324
00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:08.240
put that number at nine. The
nor'easter gained energy overnight, and by early

325
00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:12.799
morning it battered the area with winds
over thirty miles per hour and dumped up

326
00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:17.400
to twenty five inches of snow.
Oh what time did they leave? The

327
00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:21.480
bar? Bought midnight? Okay.
Karen was having stomach issues and felt funny

328
00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:25.079
about going to the Elbert's house so
late when she barely knew them, so

329
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:27.839
she dropped John off in front of
the house. She did not see him

330
00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:32.400
enter the house. She made a
three point turn in the road and headed

331
00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:36.720
to John's house, where she often
stayed. She sent him the following text

332
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:41.720
messages. One at twelve fifty five
said I'm going home, see you later.

333
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:45.000
At one o two am, your
kids are fucking alone. At one

334
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:48.480
o four am, she said,
I'm back in Mansfield. The kids are

335
00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:52.559
home alone, which isn't true.
She was there. I'm not sure why

336
00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:57.559
she texted. She called John fifty
three times and left him eight voicemails.

337
00:23:57.799 --> 00:24:02.359
Fifty three times. Fifty three times. That's a lot of in a period

338
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:07.240
of like what what period of time? I think between twelve forty five and

339
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:11.480
four thirty am. Okay, that's
a lot. I need to backtrack too.

340
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:17.359
When Karen texted and said the kids
are home alone, Patrick was at

341
00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:19.400
a sleepover, Okay, he wasn't
home. He wasn't even there. No,

342
00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:23.319
he wasn't even there. And Kylee
was there, but she was sleeping

343
00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:27.559
and she is how she was about
to go nicely or fourteen? Yeah,

344
00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:30.759
so she's old enough to be home
alone. Well, I mean she wouldn't

345
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:34.359
want Kaylle to be home alone all
night. Maybe. Yeah. At some

346
00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:37.720
point Karen fell asleep on the couch
waiting for John, but he never came

347
00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:41.640
home. With the weather raging outside, she was worried that John had gotten

348
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:47.200
to an accident. Around four thirty
am, she began screaming and woke up

349
00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:52.519
Kaylee. Kaylee then called Jennifer McCabe, who had been with Karen and John

350
00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:56.400
earlier that night. Jen was the
mother of one of Kaylee's good friends.

351
00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:00.000
Jen had invited Karen and John to
the after party at the Albert's house,

352
00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:04.000
which belong to her sister Nicole and
her brother in law Brian. There are

353
00:25:04.039 --> 00:25:07.680
a lot of people involved in this
case, and a lot of them are

354
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:11.359
related, and it's hard to keep
them straight and their relationships straight. We

355
00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:17.839
will clarify, try to clarify as
we go on NBC Boston ten, who

356
00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:22.640
was a fabulous source while working on
this case, has an interactive map of

357
00:25:22.680 --> 00:25:26.000
the key players in the trial,
and I we'll post that in our show

358
00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:30.079
notes so you can see it.
It's a really cool map where you can

359
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:33.359
click on one person, it'll show
you who they're related to, and then

360
00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:34.799
it gives you like a little explainer. Oh cool, I might have to

361
00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:37.640
pull that up. Well, I'm
actually going to send it to you right

362
00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:40.799
now. Second look at it because
it is really a great resource. So,

363
00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:44.960
just so I understand the relationships,
John went to the after party at

364
00:25:45.079 --> 00:25:51.720
Nicole and Brian Albert's house. Nicole
is the sister of Jennifer McCabe, who

365
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:53.519
will become a major player later.
Okay, I think I got it.

366
00:25:53.960 --> 00:25:57.880
So Karen and John went to the
Waterfall Bar and Grill, and there were

367
00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:04.039
several people there, Nicole and Brian
Albert and Jen McCabe and her husband Matt

368
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:10.720
McCabe were there, and Brian Higgins
was there too, and I think they

369
00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:15.240
were all invited to go back to
the Albert's house. Gotcha and did everybody

370
00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:18.880
go back to the Albert's house except
for Karen? I think there were a

371
00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:23.039
couple of other people that went home. The Albert family is very big.

372
00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:27.519
There was another brother, Chris and
his wife Julie were there and they both

373
00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:32.640
went home. Okay, so we
left off talking about Karen had just woken

374
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:37.799
up. She woke up Kaylee,
and then Kaylee called Jen McCabe. Jen

375
00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:41.160
told Kaylee that she didn't know where
John was and that he'd never made it

376
00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:45.519
to the party. Karen called Carrie
Roberts, a lifelong friend of John's,

377
00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:49.160
next and asked her to help her
search for John in the blizzard like conditions.

378
00:26:49.960 --> 00:26:53.519
The three women met at Jen McCabe's
house and drove back to thirty four

379
00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:57.599
Fairview Road in Canton to the Albert's
house, the scene of the after party.

380
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:02.920
Karen said she didn't remember the previous
night. She said, quote,

381
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:06.480
I wonder if he is dead.
It's snowing. He got hit with a

382
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:11.279
plow end quote. Karen had showed
Jen and Carrie her cracked tail light and

383
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:15.559
said she didn't know how it had
happened. As they approached the house on

384
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:22.440
Fairview Road, despite nearly complete darkness
and blinding snow. Remember it's like five

385
00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:26.440
in the morning, Karen was the
first to see the white mound that was

386
00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:30.319
John's body. She yelled, there
he is, there he is, and

387
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.680
began kicking at the door in the
back seat where she sat stuck because of

388
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:38.359
the engaged child's safety locks. John
was lying in the front yard, unconscious,

389
00:27:38.440 --> 00:27:42.240
lying face up, covered with four
to six inches of snow. He

390
00:27:42.359 --> 00:27:47.440
wasn't wearing a jacket, and one
shoe was missing. He was near the

391
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:52.119
curb, several hundred feet away from
the Albert's front door, near a flagpole.

392
00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:56.839
Snow was stained with drops of his
blood. John's nose and mouth were

393
00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:02.279
bloody, his eyes were blackened and
swollen shut. Karen ran to him and

394
00:28:02.359 --> 00:28:06.759
lifted John's shirt and her own as
she hugged him to her in an attempt

395
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:10.680
to warm his frozen body. Jen
grabbed blankets from the car to cover John

396
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:15.119
and called nine one one while Karen
attempted CPR. EMTs arrived and asked Karen

397
00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:19.720
what had happened to John to sustain
so much trauma to his body. She

398
00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:22.519
allegedly said, quote, I hit
him, I hit him, I hit

399
00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:26.599
him. John was taken to the
hospital. He wasn't breathing and didn't have

400
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:33.039
a pulse. Karen was described by
witnesses as distraught and made statements that led

401
00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:37.680
them to think she might harm herself. EMTs wanted Karen to be admitted to

402
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:41.599
the hospital under a section twelve.
Under section twelve, you were admitted to

403
00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:45.440
the hospital and given a psychiatric evaluation. It is then determined if the individual

404
00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:49.480
needs to be committed for more than
seventy two hours. Karen was taken to

405
00:28:49.480 --> 00:28:55.680
Good Samaritan Hospital by ambulance, the
same hospital John was at when he arrived.

406
00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:59.759
At the hospital, John was in
cardiac arrest and his body temperature was

407
00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:04.359
eighty point one degrees fahrenheit. He
scored a three on the Glasgow Coma scale.

408
00:29:04.839 --> 00:29:10.440
The lowest score is a three.
There are cases of people surviving extreme

409
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:15.279
hypothermia. In twenty fifteen, Justin
Smith, a college student from Pennsylvania,

410
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:19.480
was found unconscious in the snow after
being exposed to freezing temperatures for nearly twelve

411
00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:23.599
hours. His body temperature was so
low it couldn't be measured with a standard

412
00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:30.039
thermometer. Despite being declared clinically dead, he was revived through a combination of

413
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:34.920
CPR, a specialized heart lung machine, and advanced warming techniques. He made

414
00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:41.039
a remarkable recovery with no significant brain
damage. Attempts were made to increase John's

415
00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:48.000
body temperature using warming blankets and warm
ivy fluids, but unfortunately it didn't work.

416
00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:52.440
John was declared dead at seven fifty
am when he was found. I

417
00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:55.599
don't think there were any signs of
life, but they were hopeful that because

418
00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:57.440
his body was so cold, that
they might be able to revive him,

419
00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:02.279
and they were never able to.
Yeah, sense, we'll be back after

420
00:30:02.319 --> 00:30:14.480
a break. Although Massachusetts law prohibits
the public release of autopsy records, we

421
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:18.599
know what much of the report contained
because of court documents. The coroner ruled

422
00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:22.599
John's cause of death to be blunt
force trauma to the head, which caused

423
00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:29.039
multiple skull fractures, with hypothermia as
a contributing factor. The manner of death

424
00:30:29.160 --> 00:30:33.599
was undetermined. John also suffered a
skull fracture and a brain bleed. His

425
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:37.039
right arm was covered in cuts,
and he had two black eyes, a

426
00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:41.519
cut above his right eye, a
two point five inch laceration on the back

427
00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:47.319
of his skull, and bruised knuckles. John didn't have any broken bones.

428
00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:52.599
Below the neck, there were about
twenty linear scratches of varying lengths from six

429
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:56.599
inches to a half inch in length. Some of the cuts were very deep.

430
00:30:56.200 --> 00:31:00.720
The scratches looked as if they may
have come from a dog or possibly

431
00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:04.960
a wild animal. The Alberts had
a seventy pound German Shepherd named Chloe that

432
00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:10.039
was known to be aggressive, but
typically with other dogs, not humans.

433
00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:15.279
John's wounds were tested by a veterinary
forensic laboratory to determine if they contained canine

434
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:21.960
DNA. None was found, nor
was dog saliva or fur found. They

435
00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:26.640
did, however, find pig DNA. What I don't. I don't know

436
00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:32.640
about that. That's really strange.
Some people pointed to possibly like a Chloe

437
00:31:32.680 --> 00:31:36.960
had eaten a pig ear and maybe
that's why there was pig DNA in there.

438
00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:41.200
Okay, it's very strange. No
explanation. Chloe was re homed four

439
00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:45.880
months after the incident. However,
during grand jury testimony, the medical examiner

440
00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:51.319
said the scratches appeared to have come
from a blunt force object. The medical

441
00:31:51.319 --> 00:31:55.279
examiner said that it didn't appear that
John had been in a fight. What

442
00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:57.799
do you think is going on here? I have no idea what's going on,

443
00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:01.319
But it sounds like he either gott
in a fight or got hit by

444
00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:05.920
a car or something. But I
don't know. I'm a little I'm baffled

445
00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:09.200
so far. It is very confusing. But his eyes were both blackened and

446
00:32:09.319 --> 00:32:15.119
swollen. Shine yeah, and he
had no broken bones. The only book

447
00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:17.240
his skull was fractured, But that
was the only I would think if you

448
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:22.720
were hit by a car, your
lower body would be exactly. I am

449
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:25.400
going to show you a picture of
John's arm, and then I'm going to

450
00:32:25.480 --> 00:32:30.079
ask you to describe it. Okay, all right, Well, there are

451
00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:31.839
a lot of wounds on the arm. But I well, I'm looking at

452
00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:37.200
them. I can't imagine what could
have made all these wounds. They don't

453
00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:40.559
really look like a dog or something
like that to me. There are a

454
00:32:40.599 --> 00:32:45.640
lot of like scratches or lines that
are pretty deep, but they're not like

455
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:47.720
a claw or something like that.
So that's what I thought. They're very

456
00:32:47.799 --> 00:32:52.000
linear. Most of them are very
linear. And then there's a few others

457
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:54.400
that are just sort of like,
I don't know, randomly placed. But

458
00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:59.720
yeah, I don't know what could
what could cause that? It will post

459
00:32:59.799 --> 00:33:05.000
the picture on Instagram for our listeners. This is one of the great mysteries

460
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:07.319
in the case, is like what
caused those wounds? Yeah, and there

461
00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:13.119
when it comes to trial, there
will be two expert witnesses that will give

462
00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:17.759
you two different opinions. In my
unexpert opinion, my first instinct is they

463
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:21.240
don't look like they came from a
dog. In my opinion, no,

464
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:23.000
I agree with them. What would
they have come from? That's I can't

465
00:33:23.079 --> 00:33:27.440
I can't think of what they could
have come from. I guess well,

466
00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:32.559
I think to that we will.
Norfolk County Assistant District Attorney Adam Lally alleged

467
00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:37.200
that Karen Reid, drunk, angry
and frustrated with the relationship, hit John

468
00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:42.480
O'Keeffe with her lexus when she was
dropping him off at Brian Albert's house.

469
00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:46.039
Now we're going to go through some
of the evidence in the case. The

470
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:51.839
weather made the crime scene very difficult
to investigate. Light snow began around ten

471
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:55.680
thirty pm on January twenty eighth of
twenty twenty two, and continued overnight.

472
00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:01.119
The temperatures dropped after midnight and it
became very with winds of twenty to thirty

473
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:07.279
miles per hour. The heaviest snow
began after eight am. The snow was

474
00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:10.760
light and fluffy and blowing and drifting
was an issue. The high on the

475
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:15.960
twenty ninth was in the teens.
It was the sixth largest snowfall for the

476
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:20.440
area, with thirty point nine inches
of snow. Earlier I said they had

477
00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:23.480
twenty five inches of snow. I
think that's what Canton got, but other

478
00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:30.199
surrounding areas had as much as thirty
point nine inches. And the heaviest snow

479
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:34.280
after it came after eight but before
eight, before his body was found,

480
00:34:34.360 --> 00:34:37.320
there was a fair amount of it
was probably six inches of exactly, but

481
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:42.199
throughout the day they would get another, you know, ten fifteen inches of

482
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:45.639
snow, So it was a lot
of snow. Massachusetts. Obviously they know

483
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:47.639
how to get rid of snow,
but it was still a lot of time.

484
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:52.679
Yeah. The data from John's phone
placed him outside of Brian Albert's house

485
00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:58.760
at twelve twenty four am. Jen
McCabe called him at twelve twenty nine.

486
00:34:59.079 --> 00:35:02.840
The call lasted eight seconds, so
we know that John was probably alive at

487
00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:07.960
twelve twenty nine. Out of all
the people at the Albert's house that night,

488
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:10.519
Jen McKay was the one that was
closest to John. She was the

489
00:35:10.519 --> 00:35:15.360
one that had invited them over to
the party. And do we know it

490
00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:17.800
was she at the Albert's house when
she called him at twelve twenty nine.

491
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:23.159
Okay, they left the bar between
twelve and twelve fifteen, and then they

492
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:28.039
headed over to the Albert's house.
But John had never been to the Albert's

493
00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:30.119
house before. He wasn't sure how
to get there. So Jen, because

494
00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:34.320
she was friends with him, she
felt like responsible. So she's like calling

495
00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:37.480
him like, hey, do you
need directions? I think she texted him

496
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:40.639
once like park behind me. Okay, So she had probably just gotten there

497
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:45.000
a few minutes earlier and was just
calling him to make sure he was I

498
00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:46.719
believe that. Yeah, I think
the first person that would have gotten there

499
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:51.039
was at twelve fifteen. But we're
going to get into it. But there

500
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:54.840
were other people at the house already, Okay, some of their kids data

501
00:35:54.880 --> 00:36:00.440
from Karen's Lexus shows that the vehicle
traveled backwards for sixty feet at twenty four

502
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:04.400
miles per hour. We have talked
about this, and you were. I

503
00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:07.880
gave you homework to try to drive
twenty four miles per hour in reverse and

504
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:10.760
I don't think you No, I
haven't done that yet. I need an

505
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:14.480
open space to do that. Great. It makes me a little nervous.

506
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:16.760
Yeah, I think that it's pretty
hard to get to that rate of speed.

507
00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:22.599
Yeah. Broken pieces from the SUV's
tail light were found near John's body.

508
00:36:23.159 --> 00:36:28.519
However, Karen's attorneys point to a
home surveillance video that shows her leaving

509
00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:32.119
O'Keeffe's home early on the morning of
January twenty ninth, and the tail light

510
00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:37.000
appears intact. So the tail light
is another important piece of evidence in this

511
00:36:37.159 --> 00:36:42.280
case. And forgive me if I
have gotten anything wrong here, because it's

512
00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:47.639
super confusing. So broken pieces from
her car's tail light were found near him,

513
00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:52.559
yes, but surveying, not immediately
because remember there's all this snow,

514
00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:57.719
okay, right, But still they
were found near him. But I suppose

515
00:36:57.800 --> 00:37:01.159
is it possible that you could break
your tail light but the light itself was

516
00:37:01.199 --> 00:37:06.079
still working? So yeah, it
would look like it was intact from sance

517
00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:08.039
tail it is red, and then
there's parts of it that are clear.

518
00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:13.760
So some of the parts near John's
body and in the yard were red and

519
00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:15.760
some were clear. Okay, so
yeah it is. It is hard when

520
00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:21.159
you see the pictures of the vehicle
because it might look like the tail light

521
00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:25.920
is intact when it's lit up,
but in fact it isn't. Surveillance camera

522
00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:30.719
footage and cell phone data indicates that
Karen likely drove past the Alberts home on

523
00:37:30.840 --> 00:37:36.639
fair Haven before she went to Jen
McCabe's house early on the morning of January

524
00:37:36.639 --> 00:37:39.800
twenty ninth before so that's why she
knew where his body was and was so

525
00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:45.079
quickly like there he is. There
is interesting. Drops of John's blood were

526
00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:51.840
found in the snow. Investigators gathered
the snow in six red solo cups borrowed

527
00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:55.280
from a neighbor who happened to be
a police officer. That's probably not the

528
00:37:55.320 --> 00:38:00.119
best way together. At solo cups
are not the standard for evidence gathering.

529
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:06.599
And then they were put in a
paperback from a grocery store. Oh okay,

530
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:10.079
and there's no lids on a solo
cop No and they were defensive about

531
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:13.239
this, and they said, yeah, that's what we had at the time.

532
00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:15.039
That's the best that we could do. Okay. On the fly,

533
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:20.719
there was not a ton of blood
at the crime scene. I've read as

534
00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:23.760
little as six drops. Okay.
John was wearing a T shirt with a

535
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:28.760
sweatshirt over it, jeans, no
hat or coat, and one shoe.

536
00:38:29.239 --> 00:38:32.039
There was no snow under his body, but about four inches of snow covered

537
00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:37.039
his body when he was found.
His cell phone lay under his body in

538
00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:42.239
the grass. Microscopic pieces of plastic
from the tail light were found embedded in

539
00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:45.440
John's sweatshirt. There was also damage
to the sleeves, but there was no

540
00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:51.599
evidence of canine DNA. There were
blood stains on the sweatshirt. John's clothes

541
00:38:51.639 --> 00:38:54.639
were cut off his body. At
the hospital. A leaf blower was used

542
00:38:54.639 --> 00:38:59.719
to blow snow away from the area
where John's body was found. A broken,

543
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:02.880
cut tailed glass was found about a
foot from his body. One of

544
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:07.880
his Nike sneakers was found nine feet
from his body by the curb, covered

545
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:12.039
in snow. Okay. Remember when
John was leaving the bar, he had

546
00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:14.239
a drink with it. He had
a cocktail glass with it. Okay,

547
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:16.719
and a leaf flower to blow away
the snow. What do you think about

548
00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:20.519
that? I mean, I think
it's going to melt the snow and it's

549
00:39:20.559 --> 00:39:24.320
going to move around a bunch of
potential evidence. So it could contaminate the

550
00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:28.559
scene a little bit too, because
there's probably debris in the leaf flower.

551
00:39:28.760 --> 00:39:32.400
Right. John was six foot two
inches tall and weighed two hundred and seventeen

552
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:37.400
pounds. He appeared to have been
thrown a few feet from the road due

553
00:39:37.400 --> 00:39:42.800
to the impact of the car.
Had a hard time locating exactly where his

554
00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:45.960
body was found, but it sounded
like it was near the road, not

555
00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:49.599
on the road, not on the
curb, but it was like a few

556
00:39:49.639 --> 00:39:52.599
feet away from the curb. Ok, kind of in a snow bank.

557
00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:55.360
Gotcha near a snow bank? I
think because the plows had gone through and

558
00:39:55.800 --> 00:39:59.480
was just gonna ask you there.
So there were snow banks already at that

559
00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:02.000
point. So not super you know, was it a ton of snow,

560
00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:07.320
But yeah, the plow had definitely
gone through a few times. A strand

561
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:10.639
of O'Keeffe's hair was found frozen onto
the vehicle's bumper near the tail light.

562
00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:15.920
Residue from a spilled cocktail was found
on the bumper, as well as particles

563
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:22.280
from the cocktail glass. No blood
was found on the bumper. John's DNA

564
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:25.320
was found on pieces of the tail
light. There was some damage to Karen's

565
00:40:25.400 --> 00:40:30.760
lexus. Other than the tail light, investigators found a deep scratch and a

566
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:35.639
dent on the right side of the
rear tailgate and two scratches plus some chipped

567
00:40:35.639 --> 00:40:39.159
paint on the right side of the
rear bumper. Karen's attorney, David Yannetti,

568
00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:45.079
pointed out two curious phone calls between
Brian Albert and Brian Higgins, a

569
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:50.079
friend and agent with the ATF Okay. Remember Brian Higgins is the one that

570
00:40:50.440 --> 00:40:54.079
Karen had been texting. Okay,
she had the flirty relationship with and had

571
00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:58.719
Brian Albert and Brian Higgins. They
had both been at the bar and the

572
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:02.280
after party. Yeah yes. One
call between the two was made at two

573
00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:07.320
twenty two am on January twenty ninth, from Brian Albert's phone to Brian Higgins's

574
00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:13.159
phone. The call lasted only one
second. Albert called it a butt dial.

575
00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:16.960
Seventeen seconds later, there was a
second phone call that lasted twenty two

576
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:22.960
seconds, this time from higgins phone
to Albert's phone. So maybe Higgins was

577
00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:28.480
calling him back because he thought the
other guy was trying to reach him.

578
00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:30.519
Yes, but they both called it
a butt dial. There's a lot of

579
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:34.480
there's several butt dials, a lot
of butt dialing going on here, several

580
00:41:34.480 --> 00:41:37.760
butt dials. In this case.
Brian Albert's sister in law, Jennifer McCabe,

581
00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:43.159
called O'Keeffe nine times on the night
of January twenty eighth, between twelve

582
00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:49.000
fourteen and twelve fifty. She tried
his number again in the morning. Investigators

583
00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:52.199
discovered a group text among the partygoers
who were at Brian Albert's house that night

584
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:58.920
after John's body was found. Matt
McCabe texted the group quote, tell them

585
00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:04.039
the guy never went into the house
unquote, Brian Albert replied, quote exactly.

586
00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:07.480
The allegation is, and I was
going to wait to tell you this

587
00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:13.239
is that these people conspired to kill
John O'Keeffe, and like the group text

588
00:42:13.320 --> 00:42:16.199
messages awaited you know, for them
to conspire and cover up his death.

589
00:42:16.599 --> 00:42:20.280
You say these people there were you
said how many people there were twelve or

590
00:42:20.440 --> 00:42:22.599
twelve people at the party, and
they were all twelve on the group text.

591
00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:25.079
I don't think so. I think
so. Some of the people,

592
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:29.679
and we're going to get to that
in a minute, were teenagers, okay,

593
00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:32.239
or actually not just not teenagers,
but they were young adults, okay.

594
00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:36.320
And then there's like kind of the
parents that went back after the bar.

595
00:42:36.840 --> 00:42:38.920
Okay, do you think it's suspicious
that I had a group text?

596
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:44.400
Not necessarily no, right, they
might have just wanted to just like it's

597
00:42:44.599 --> 00:42:46.719
really weird that this guy died at
our house, and yeah, he was

598
00:42:46.719 --> 00:42:51.400
such a good guy, and and
you know, the like the text message

599
00:42:51.559 --> 00:42:53.000
tell them the guy never went into
the house, like you could read that

600
00:42:53.159 --> 00:42:57.239
is well, that's a little suspicious, But it's also like, well,

601
00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:00.760
if that's what happened, then it's
not really that suspicios a little bit.

602
00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:04.719
I guess I would need more context
around it. But yeah, it does

603
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:08.599
seem a little suspicious that someone is
saying tell them anything, like, you

604
00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:12.800
know, tell them the truth,
right, but don't say tell them the

605
00:43:12.800 --> 00:43:15.079
guy never, the guy never,
you know, John never came into the

606
00:43:15.119 --> 00:43:21.559
house. But you're right that the
wording is a little suspicious. The shards

607
00:43:21.559 --> 00:43:24.559
of broken tail light were not all
found during the initial search of Brian Albert's

608
00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:30.400
property. Days later, on February
fourth, twenty twenty two, Canton Police

609
00:43:30.480 --> 00:43:35.639
Chief Kenneth Berkowitz found several more pieces
of the tail light after the snow began

610
00:43:35.679 --> 00:43:38.239
to melt. He said he was
driving by the crime scene and saw the

611
00:43:38.239 --> 00:43:44.199
pieces from his car. His phone
records indicate he called Brian Higgins later that

612
00:43:44.280 --> 00:43:50.039
day, and Higgins called Brian Albert
Hmm, Okay, does that feel suspicious

613
00:43:50.079 --> 00:43:53.599
to you? Starting to feel a
little bit suspicious to me. We're gonna

614
00:43:53.599 --> 00:43:59.559
mention this in a couple of minutes. But Karen's car, the Lexus,

615
00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:04.519
was police custody by this time.
Okay, So the implication being that they

616
00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:08.760
could have taken some of her tail
light and planted it there exactly, okay.

617
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:15.079
Karen's tailight has been a major source
of speculation in the case, how

618
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:17.000
and when it was broken, and
how and when the pieces of the tail

619
00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:22.320
light were found at the crime scene. The first pieces weren't found until five

620
00:44:22.519 --> 00:44:28.639
thirty PM, about twelve hours after
the investigation began. Coincidentally, Karen's Lexus

621
00:44:28.719 --> 00:44:32.320
was seized somewhere between four and five
thirty, along with her cell phone.

622
00:44:32.960 --> 00:44:37.880
Her defense would later point to this, alleging that the pieces could have been

623
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:42.800
planted. There is surveillance video of
Karen leaving John's house in a rush to

624
00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:46.119
go search for him. In the
surveillance video, Karen can be seen backing

625
00:44:46.119 --> 00:44:51.679
into John's car. John's car appeared
to rock slightly, but it's unclear if

626
00:44:51.679 --> 00:44:55.039
her tail light was broken, although
there was no damage to John's car and

627
00:44:55.159 --> 00:44:59.239
no pieces of tail light found on
the driveway. To be clear, this

628
00:44:59.320 --> 00:45:01.840
is the next one, right,
and we talked about this a little bit.

629
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:07.440
It's really hard to tell in the
videos because not the complete red.

630
00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:12.400
There were still some red pieces there, so the light appeared to be somewhat

631
00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:15.039
red. Still, Okay, it's
really hard to tell if it's broken or

632
00:45:15.079 --> 00:45:21.000
not. The police never searched Albert's
home. They claimed there was no probable

633
00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:25.320
cause. What do you think of
that? I think that is not right.

634
00:45:25.599 --> 00:45:29.719
I think they should have. I
don't know why they wouldn't have,

635
00:45:30.280 --> 00:45:32.199
you know, because there was some
probable cause. I mean, a man

636
00:45:32.280 --> 00:45:36.639
died right outside of the home,
but he didn't die inside the home,

637
00:45:36.840 --> 00:45:39.599
and there was no evidence of him
having been inside the home. This is

638
00:45:39.639 --> 00:45:44.760
another one of those red flags.
And the case that people point to is

639
00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:46.280
like, well, you should have
searched them. I mean, I mean,

640
00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:49.559
you just said there was no evidence
of him being inside the home.

641
00:45:49.639 --> 00:45:52.519
How would you know there was no
evidence unless you searched the home. It's

642
00:45:52.559 --> 00:45:54.880
been brought up that a judge would
not have granted a search warrant, which

643
00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:58.920
I question, Yeah, because there, I mean, you know, to

644
00:45:58.920 --> 00:46:00.559
get a search warrant, you we
do have to prove that there's evidence,

645
00:46:00.920 --> 00:46:06.280
right, and he was invited to
the house, but allegedly he never made

646
00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:08.840
it into the house. There was
no yeah, okay, there were no

647
00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:14.320
observable injuries to Brian Albert, Brian
Higgins, or Colin Albert. So if

648
00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:16.639
they'd had gotten into this big fight, you know, one of them would

649
00:46:16.639 --> 00:46:20.519
have had a black eye or a
bruise, knuckle or something. Right.

650
00:46:21.159 --> 00:46:27.599
Massachusetts State Police Crime Lab Toxicology Unit
performed a retrograde serum analysis on Karen Reid

651
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:31.559
in the late morning of January twenty
ninth to determine her blood alcohol level at

652
00:46:31.559 --> 00:46:35.760
twelve thirty am. I did not
know this was possible. I was just

653
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:37.880
gonna say that I did not know
that was possible either. The time that

654
00:46:37.960 --> 00:46:43.800
she would have dropped John off at
the Albert's home, her blood alcohol content

655
00:46:43.880 --> 00:46:49.480
was estimated to be between zero point
one three five percent and zero point two

656
00:46:49.559 --> 00:46:53.159
nine two percent. At the time
of the test, Karen's blood alcohol content

657
00:46:53.280 --> 00:46:57.960
was between point zero seven and point
zero eight, and that was at nine

658
00:46:58.039 --> 00:47:05.199
am, so ars later she was
still pretty close to Yeah, that's crazy.

659
00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:09.320
So I did a little bit of
research on blood alcohol content levels and

660
00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:15.880
its effects on your body. At
point zero two, feelings of relaxation begin.

661
00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:21.599
Point zero four, you start feeling
relaxed or buzzed. At point zero

662
00:47:21.719 --> 00:47:27.880
six, judgment starts going down and
decision making is altered. That's probably when

663
00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:30.920
most people should quit, like if
you could, definitely should probably not drive.

664
00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:35.719
If you get beyond that. At
point zero eight, impairment of motor

665
00:47:35.760 --> 00:47:40.800
control happens, and you risk nausea
from here on out. At point one

666
00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:47.239
zero, clear deterioration in judgment,
coordination and reaction time at point one five

667
00:47:47.239 --> 00:47:52.159
too point two five you risk blackouts
from here on out, and that's probably

668
00:47:52.199 --> 00:47:57.480
where Karen was at about twelve thirty
am. Yeah, between point two five

669
00:47:57.519 --> 00:48:01.320
and point three five you risk blacking
out, and there is a risk of

670
00:48:01.400 --> 00:48:07.159
death. At point three zero or
higher point four zero to point four or

671
00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:12.840
five is generally considered a lethal dose. Okay, remind us where Karen was.

672
00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:15.559
She was between point one three five
and point two nine two, so

673
00:48:16.119 --> 00:48:22.280
definitely getting close to that point when
she could have been potentially blacking out.

674
00:48:22.639 --> 00:48:27.280
I know it's relative to your size, but she's a very small person.

675
00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:32.039
Yeah. Daniel Medweb, a professor
of law and criminal justice at Northeastern University

676
00:48:32.159 --> 00:48:38.480
and an expert on wrongful convictions,
called the investigation flawed and accused Massachusetts State

677
00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:43.800
trooper Michael Procter, the lead investigator
in the Karen Reid case, of having

678
00:48:43.840 --> 00:48:47.760
tunnel vision. Medweed told NBC News
quote, the way that we see the

679
00:48:47.800 --> 00:48:52.360
evidence is tinged by our expectations and
our theory of the case. It seems

680
00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:57.599
as if the police did develop a
theory pretty early that Karen Reid committed the

681
00:48:57.639 --> 00:49:01.199
crime. As the case evolved,
there might have been other avenues of investigation

682
00:49:01.320 --> 00:49:07.239
that they didn't pursue. If there
are missteps and sloppiness in a murder investigation

683
00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:10.559
involving the death of a police officer, what does that suggest about the process

684
00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:15.679
In a more run of the mill
case with a civilian victim, this should

685
00:49:15.679 --> 00:49:22.679
be caused for concern and some evaluation
unquote confirmation bias. It's not a good

686
00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:25.840
thing if you are a police officer. That happens a lot though. Oh

687
00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:30.280
yeah, I'm sure it does.
It's human nature, right, You think

688
00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:34.840
something and then you start to look
for evidence to support what you're thinking instead

689
00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:37.800
of the other way around. But
that's not how you're trained as a police

690
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:40.519
officer. And we have to remember
in this case, John O'Keefe was a

691
00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:45.000
police officer and I'm sure they wanted
to do a good job for him.

692
00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:50.039
Yeah, we will get into Michael
Proctor and you are going to be shocked.

693
00:49:50.280 --> 00:49:52.519
Oh boy, have you heard?
Do you know the name Michael?

694
00:49:52.719 --> 00:49:58.559
Know nothing about him? It's pretty
shocking. Okay. A problematic issue in

695
00:49:58.599 --> 00:50:04.159
this case is whether or not John
O'Keeffe went into the Albert's house that night.

696
00:50:04.280 --> 00:50:07.599
Yeah, that seems problematic and this
part is confusing, so bear with

697
00:50:07.639 --> 00:50:13.079
me. Data from John's phone shows
that he took one hundred and seventy steps

698
00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:17.719
between the time he left the Waterfall
Bar at twelve eleven am until twelve twenty

699
00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:22.400
one am. His phone data does
not place him at thirty four Fairview Road,

700
00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:28.280
the Elbert's house until twelve twenty four
am. He took an additional eighty

701
00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:32.760
steps between twelve twenty one and twelve
twenty four am. The data also shows

702
00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:37.480
that he climbed three flights of stairs
between twelve twenty two and twelve twenty four

703
00:50:37.519 --> 00:50:45.559
am. But it's misleading because he
wasn't He seemed to not have been in

704
00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:47.719
the house at that time, right, So how did he climb stairs?

705
00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:51.440
Well, he seemed to have not
been in the house. But this is

706
00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:54.039
an issue to me. This is
a big question and I'm not an expert

707
00:50:54.079 --> 00:51:00.280
on cell phone data, but it
is the location that accurate that they can

708
00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:02.480
say he was not in the house, I mean or cam And that's the

709
00:51:02.519 --> 00:51:07.159
problem. We don't know, yeah, because in other cases it seems like

710
00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:09.639
they are always saying that, well, you know, he was in this

711
00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:14.639
area or whatever, but it's not
that exact. I think people are pointing

712
00:51:14.639 --> 00:51:19.519
to the stairs, like how did
he climb three flights of stairs? Right?

713
00:51:19.960 --> 00:51:23.639
And did the Alberts home have multiple
levels? I believe so. By

714
00:51:23.960 --> 00:51:28.440
the theory and we'll get to it, is that he went down the stairs

715
00:51:28.480 --> 00:51:32.159
to the basement. And your Apple
watch, your Apple health data, it

716
00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:37.599
counts ascending stairs, not descending stairs. If he went down, he would

717
00:51:37.639 --> 00:51:42.039
have had to come back up.
Well, that's he didn't go back up.

718
00:51:42.079 --> 00:51:45.639
Though. The theory is that he
was killed in the basement. Oh

719
00:51:45.639 --> 00:51:47.280
okay, so he would not have
walked back up the stairs. He did

720
00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:51.920
not walk at him. He would
have been carried back up. People point

721
00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:55.639
to the stair data as proof that
he was in the house. But you

722
00:51:55.639 --> 00:51:59.639
know, I have an Apple Watch, and you know, you go on

723
00:51:59.679 --> 00:52:01.679
a walk sometimes and it shows that
you've been upstairs. Oh, if you

724
00:52:01.719 --> 00:52:05.519
just go up on a walk that
is on an incline, it might think

725
00:52:05.559 --> 00:52:08.480
you went upstairs. And I think
it's based on your arm movement. I

726
00:52:08.519 --> 00:52:13.079
couldn't. I could definitely be wrong
about that. Yeah, And sometimes my

727
00:52:13.119 --> 00:52:15.719
apple Watch will be like, oh, you own up fourteen flights of stairs

728
00:52:15.719 --> 00:52:16.320
today, and I'll be like,
well, no, I did. And

729
00:52:16.400 --> 00:52:20.360
sometimes some days I know that I
climbed more stairs and I'll be like,

730
00:52:20.360 --> 00:52:23.000
no, you climb five right,
yes, today, So it's not accurate.

731
00:52:23.480 --> 00:52:28.519
And as far as the location.
Remember one time when our daughter when

732
00:52:28.559 --> 00:52:32.199
she was she was in height,
she was sixteen and she was taking courses

733
00:52:32.239 --> 00:52:37.559
at the college and she had just
gotten her driver's license, and it made

734
00:52:37.559 --> 00:52:39.880
me really nervous. So I tracked
her location all the time, and one

735
00:52:39.880 --> 00:52:44.639
time it showed her, like I
don't know, it was miles and miles

736
00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:46.840
away from campus, and I was
so freaked out. I remember that that

737
00:52:46.960 --> 00:52:53.039
I called the office and they had
to send some nice woman went and checked

738
00:52:53.079 --> 00:52:55.519
on her for me and was like, no, she's sitting in class.

739
00:52:55.559 --> 00:53:00.519
And so, yeah, the location
isn't perfect, but I think it's,

740
00:53:00.440 --> 00:53:06.679
you know, pretty good. You
would hope that cell phone data is objective,

741
00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:12.199
but it's not, and that's really
frustrating because you would think, oh,

742
00:53:12.280 --> 00:53:15.679
it's an electronic device, this is
the way it works, but it's

743
00:53:15.679 --> 00:53:17.480
not as cut and dry. Yeah. Sure, I think in these cases

744
00:53:19.079 --> 00:53:22.719
it gets really frustrating because as we
get to the trial, you'll see that

745
00:53:22.760 --> 00:53:29.320
there's contradicting beliefs and statements and information, right, so it's hard for us

746
00:53:29.599 --> 00:53:34.559
to analyze that information and come up
with a good theory. Yeah, if

747
00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:37.920
he was hit by the car and
his body was projected, I wonder if

748
00:53:37.960 --> 00:53:42.599
that could have counted for the three
flights up stairs, because even if he

749
00:53:42.760 --> 00:53:45.079
was in the Albert's home, I
don't think that he would have climbed three

750
00:53:45.079 --> 00:53:49.000
flights up stairs. Yeah, that
I was thinking the same thing. That

751
00:53:49.079 --> 00:53:52.320
doesn't seem likely that he would have
climbed three flights of stairs in any circumstance.

752
00:53:52.360 --> 00:53:55.519
And I think that a flight of
stairs has to be fifteen steps.

753
00:53:55.559 --> 00:53:58.440
I think I read that some much
we only thing I was going to ask

754
00:53:58.480 --> 00:54:01.920
you is the Albert's home, was
there an incline up the driveway like that

755
00:54:01.960 --> 00:54:06.400
he could have walked up the driveway. Maybe it's hard to tell from the

756
00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:08.159
pictures I've seen, but it looks
fairly flat to me. Yeah, maybe

757
00:54:08.159 --> 00:54:14.280
a slight incline, but not three
stories worth of incline. Exactly. Eleven

758
00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:19.280
witnesses that were at the Albert's home
that night signed a statement that John never

759
00:54:19.559 --> 00:54:24.320
entered the Albert's home. But if
you're to believe the conspiracy, well,

760
00:54:24.320 --> 00:54:28.800
of course they all sign the statement
because they were all conspiring. It's a

761
00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:31.599
lot of people to be in on
a conspiracy. I wanted to go over

762
00:54:31.719 --> 00:54:36.599
evidence in the case that I think
is it's like proven, we know that

763
00:54:36.679 --> 00:54:43.400
it's true John is dead. John
and Karen were having relationship issues. John

764
00:54:43.400 --> 00:54:46.280
and Karen both had a lot to
drink On January twenty eighth, and Karen

765
00:54:46.320 --> 00:54:50.960
should not have been driving. Do
we know what John's blood alcohol level was?

766
00:54:51.760 --> 00:54:53.960
His BAC was about point two.
Oh, okay, so he was

767
00:54:54.039 --> 00:54:59.159
quite drunk. Yeah, and so
both of their judgments were impaired. Their

768
00:54:59.199 --> 00:55:02.760
motor skills were slowed, right,
And I should point out too that I

769
00:55:02.800 --> 00:55:08.199
think several parties involved were also fairly
intoxicated. Yeah, it should not have

770
00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:14.119
been driving. Karen's tailight was broken
and charts of plastic were found at the

771
00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:17.760
scene. How they got there is
kind of in question. We aren't certain

772
00:55:17.800 --> 00:55:22.039
what happened between about twelve thirty and
six am. Those are the hours in

773
00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:27.599
question. John had two black eyes, a fractured skull, and bruised knuckles.

774
00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:31.360
His injuries appear to be more likely
from a fight than being hit by

775
00:55:31.400 --> 00:55:35.599
a vehicle. Do you agree with
that? I mean, definitely, the

776
00:55:35.599 --> 00:55:38.960
black eyes and the bruised knuckles for
shure bruising below the ways. The injuries

777
00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:42.880
that you showed me in the picture
of his arm do not look like they

778
00:55:42.880 --> 00:55:45.840
came from a fight. I don't
know what those would have come from though.

779
00:55:45.079 --> 00:55:47.679
Well, the dog like people are, they don't look like they came

780
00:55:47.719 --> 00:55:51.199
from a dog either, So that's
why I'm saying, what do you think

781
00:55:51.239 --> 00:55:53.639
they came from. I don't know. I think it's possible. They look

782
00:55:53.719 --> 00:55:59.440
like dog scratches, maybe not bites. I think it seems really unlikely.

783
00:55:59.480 --> 00:56:02.679
They were far enough apart that I
don't think a dog's claw, would you

784
00:56:02.719 --> 00:56:06.119
know, it seems like they would
be closer together. Okay, here's a

785
00:56:06.119 --> 00:56:08.599
couple of facts that I haven't told
you yet. The Elberts home was sold

786
00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:13.840
and their basement was It wasn't remodeled, but the flooring was replaced. They

787
00:56:13.880 --> 00:56:16.440
said it was due to a flood
they sold their home. They did that

788
00:56:16.480 --> 00:56:21.760
before they sold the home, Yes, okay. They said that they had

789
00:56:21.800 --> 00:56:24.880
talked to a realtor before the incident
with John had occurred, and they had

790
00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:30.280
planned on selling their house. Their
home was listed in November twenty twenty two

791
00:56:30.360 --> 00:56:34.639
for a nine hundred and fifty thousand
dollars and sold for nine hundred thousand dollars

792
00:56:34.679 --> 00:56:39.079
in April, and Chloe the dog
was rehomed to a farm in Vermont,

793
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:45.199
m Okay. Do you think those
things are suspicious? Not necessarily. I

794
00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:49.400
think that the fact that they did
not search the home is not good,

795
00:56:49.440 --> 00:56:52.039
But the fact that they put a
new floor in and that doesn't seem that

796
00:56:52.960 --> 00:56:55.000
there was allegedly a flood and that's
why they had to replace the flooring,

797
00:56:55.039 --> 00:56:59.760
But the dog being rehomed. They'd
had the dog for several years. She'd

798
00:56:59.800 --> 00:57:02.960
had a few incidents with biting,
So I mean, I guess it depends

799
00:57:02.960 --> 00:57:06.679
on where they moved to. Maybe
they moved to a place that they couldn't

800
00:57:06.719 --> 00:57:12.119
have a dog that I think Chloe
wasn't able to be located, and I

801
00:57:12.199 --> 00:57:15.360
think people have been suspicious about that. Some of the evidence in the case

802
00:57:15.480 --> 00:57:21.400
is questionable, such as John entering
the house or not. The scratches on

803
00:57:21.440 --> 00:57:24.360
his arm, were they from a
dog or could they have been from the

804
00:57:24.400 --> 00:57:30.039
shards of plastic or whatever else something
else. The part of we did wonder

805
00:57:30.079 --> 00:57:32.960
if like he was lying in the
cold long enough, could it have been

806
00:57:32.960 --> 00:57:38.800
from a raccoon or some other wild
animal. If John was hit by a

807
00:57:38.840 --> 00:57:45.000
car, why was there no bruising
below the waist. In the next episode,

808
00:57:45.039 --> 00:57:47.719
I'm going to introduce you to some
more questionable evidence. Okay, that's

809
00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:52.480
going to drive you nuts, but
I think that's what we're going to have

810
00:57:52.480 --> 00:57:55.440
to end for today. Okay,
Well, I am intrigued This is a

811
00:57:55.639 --> 00:57:59.679
super intriguing case. I have to
say, when you first started, I

812
00:57:59.760 --> 00:58:01.920
was like, Oh, it's obvious, she's guilty. She hit him with

813
00:58:01.920 --> 00:58:07.880
the car. But now I'm questioning
it. But I'm withholding judgment until we

814
00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:12.480
get through everything. People have really
strong opinions on this case on both sides,

815
00:58:12.519 --> 00:58:16.840
and I can completely understand how you
can get to Karen's guilty and Karen's

816
00:58:16.840 --> 00:58:20.480
innocent. I can see both sides. Yeah, I think I would have

817
00:58:20.519 --> 00:58:23.079
been a great juror. Yeah,
those jurors, Oh, they went through

818
00:58:23.119 --> 00:58:25.920
it. I can imagine. Well, we haven't said it yet, but

819
00:58:27.000 --> 00:58:29.679
I guess you can. Yeah.
I think we all know there was a

820
00:58:29.719 --> 00:58:35.599
trial. Yes, this case is
tough. There's a lot of evidence,

821
00:58:35.920 --> 00:58:39.280
there's a lot of people involved,
and they're all intertwined. There's a couple

822
00:58:39.320 --> 00:58:43.519
of Brian's, there's a lot of
people with the last name Albert. Well.

823
00:58:43.639 --> 00:58:47.239
There's just a lot of questions about
interpreting the evidence and whether the evidence

824
00:58:47.360 --> 00:58:51.480
is, whether you can believe everything
or not, or what you know.

825
00:58:52.079 --> 00:58:53.440
It just makes it hard when you
don't know what to believe and what not

826
00:58:53.519 --> 00:58:58.360
to believe. We'll stick with us
and hopefully the next episode will be able

827
00:58:58.400 --> 00:59:00.639
to clarify some things. Okay,
I'll stick with you. Okay, thanks,

828
00:59:00.760 --> 00:59:10.320
you don't have a choice. I
wanted to give a thank you again

829
00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:15.039
to Sam and Tim for the snackt
Aali thank you Sam and Tim. That

830
00:59:15.119 --> 00:59:19.519
was so amazing. And our kids
came in and they really loved all the

831
00:59:19.519 --> 00:59:22.360
snacks very great. Well, they
didn't get the kinder Joy because that was

832
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:24.280
gone, but they liked the other
It was delicious. I'll let them put

833
00:59:24.320 --> 00:59:28.920
together, Ron Weasley, though,
I'm not sure we're going to wrap this

834
00:59:29.079 --> 00:59:31.599
up in one more episode or if
it's going to have to be three parts.

835
00:59:31.920 --> 00:59:35.920
Okay, there's a lot to cover
either way. I'm here. I'm

836
00:59:35.920 --> 00:59:39.199
here for it. You've got another
trip coming up in two days I leave,

837
00:59:39.719 --> 00:59:43.119
Oh my God, to go to
How you do it? It's a

838
00:59:43.119 --> 00:59:46.960
lot. I'm going to Paris again. Yeah, and your trip is coinciding

839
00:59:47.000 --> 00:59:52.079
with the Olympics. Isn't that amazing? Like I was so surprised, and

840
00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:54.960
my company basically let me know a
few weeks ago, Hey, you need

841
00:59:55.000 --> 00:59:59.760
to be in Paris for the week
of July twenty third. I was like,

842
00:59:59.800 --> 01:00:02.679
wait a minute, The Olympics start
that week in Paris. Yeah,

843
01:00:02.719 --> 01:00:05.199
So what are you going to go
see? I know you're going to go

844
01:00:05.199 --> 01:00:07.840
see a few events without me because
I'm going to be home. I wish

845
01:00:07.840 --> 01:00:09.400
I was going with you. I
wish we would have planned. I'll send

846
01:00:09.440 --> 01:00:13.880
you a picture. Oh well,
you know what they say, a picture

847
01:00:14.280 --> 01:00:15.559
is just as good as being there. It's going to be on TV.

848
01:00:16.679 --> 01:00:20.400
You'll actually be able to watch a
lot more events than I'll be too.

849
01:00:20.559 --> 01:00:23.360
But I do love the Olympics.
I like the Olympics a lot too.

850
01:00:23.480 --> 01:00:27.719
I'm only going to be there for
so I'm going to be there the day

851
01:00:27.800 --> 01:00:31.719
before the opening ceremony and there are
events that day. Competing in any events?

852
01:00:31.760 --> 01:00:36.559
Are you I might get called in
if if needed, I'm ready,

853
01:00:36.760 --> 01:00:39.719
but right now, as of right
now, no, I am not competing

854
01:00:39.719 --> 01:00:44.159
in anything but the day before the
opening ceremony. There's not a ton going

855
01:00:44.199 --> 01:00:47.320
on. But I think I'm going
to see handball, which I do even

856
01:00:47.360 --> 01:00:52.079
know, and I'm going to see
what's called rugby sevens, which I had

857
01:00:52.119 --> 01:00:54.800
never heard of. I've heard of
rugby, but I didn't know what rugby

858
01:00:54.800 --> 01:00:59.760
seven's was. And it's like a
short, little like a fifteen minute rugby.

859
01:00:59.800 --> 01:01:01.199
Matt, I thought you were going
to say seven minute rugby. I

860
01:01:01.239 --> 01:01:05.800
don't know why they called rugby seventh. I really don't know anything about rugby.

861
01:01:05.920 --> 01:01:07.840
Yeah, I don't know much either, other than that it looks a

862
01:01:07.840 --> 01:01:12.360
little leg football. But and then
it's a rough sport, right Yeah.

863
01:01:12.400 --> 01:01:15.159
And then the day of the opening
ceremony, which is Friday, there are

864
01:01:15.159 --> 01:01:16.719
no events that day, so I'm
just going to be hanging around. And

865
01:01:16.800 --> 01:01:21.760
the opening ceremony is really expensive,
so I'm not planning how expensive, like

866
01:01:21.800 --> 01:01:24.599
a thousand dollars minimum for a ticket, so I'm not going to do that.

867
01:01:24.719 --> 01:01:29.679
I am going to ask you to
promise me on air that when the

868
01:01:29.719 --> 01:01:34.000
Olympics are in Los Angeles in four
years that we will go in some capacity.

869
01:01:34.760 --> 01:01:37.199
I promise you we will go when
it's on my bucket list. I've

870
01:01:37.199 --> 01:01:39.159
always wanted to go to the Olympics. Yeah, I think it would be

871
01:01:39.159 --> 01:01:43.519
cooler to go to Paris, but
I'll Los Angeles is cool too. Well.

872
01:01:43.599 --> 01:01:45.960
Intimidating though, just getting around.
I don't know how to ride very

873
01:01:46.039 --> 01:01:52.400
good traveler. I try not to
let anything intimidate me if I can,

874
01:01:52.480 --> 01:01:54.360
but everything intimidates me. So that's
where we're different. Yeah, But then

875
01:01:54.400 --> 01:02:00.000
the day after the opening ceremony,
I'll be going to badminton and you're quite

876
01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:04.519
a good you could get called in. I'm that. Yeah, and beach

877
01:02:04.599 --> 01:02:07.000
volleyball, which I won't get called
in for that men's are women's. I

878
01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:09.960
don't know, I have no idea. It's just beach volleyball. And then

879
01:02:10.239 --> 01:02:14.239
I have a slot in the middle
of the day that i'm I'm looking for

880
01:02:14.280 --> 01:02:16.280
tickets and I don't know yet,
and maybe table tennis. Who knows,

881
01:02:16.360 --> 01:02:21.000
So no one has asked. But
we've had our peloton now for over a

882
01:02:21.079 --> 01:02:24.840
month and you're probably quite the cyclist
right now. I could probably do cycling

883
01:02:24.880 --> 01:02:29.480
if I get called in for that
one. Speaking of peloton, we're both

884
01:02:30.400 --> 01:02:34.239
pretty obsessed we're doing I think we're
doing great. I'm really happy and our

885
01:02:34.360 --> 01:02:37.719
progress so far. Yeah, it's
been a lot of fun. And I

886
01:02:37.760 --> 01:02:42.679
know pelotons are expensive and the app
is expensive. I think it's like forty

887
01:02:42.679 --> 01:02:45.559
five dollars a month, which is
kind of ridiculous, but we really hadn't

888
01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:47.679
spent any of our podcast money,
so we're like, oh, we might

889
01:02:47.679 --> 01:02:52.679
as well make a big purchase.
Yeah, and it's I've really enjoyed it.

890
01:02:52.679 --> 01:02:54.119
It's not like fun, Like,
yeah, it's just but it's like

891
01:02:54.440 --> 01:02:59.199
all right, I did it.
Yeah, Like whereas before I think with

892
01:02:59.400 --> 01:03:01.079
like work out, so it was
like I don't want to go workout,

893
01:03:01.119 --> 01:03:05.199
and well I still do that,
but then I'm once you get on the

894
01:03:05.199 --> 01:03:07.079
bike, and once I get on
the bike sometimes I'm like, yeah,

895
01:03:07.119 --> 01:03:09.159
I'm going to do another ten to
fifteen minutes. So I really like it

896
01:03:09.159 --> 01:03:13.519
a lot too. Usually for me, like any kind of hobby or activity,

897
01:03:13.559 --> 01:03:15.360
the kiss of death is when I
spend money on it. So like

898
01:03:15.400 --> 01:03:19.320
if I get into like golf or
something, I buy expensive golf clubs,

899
01:03:19.360 --> 01:03:22.880
then I usually stop golfing shortly after
that. But so far it's been a

900
01:03:22.920 --> 01:03:25.280
month. I mean it's funny six
years, but six years we're still using

901
01:03:25.280 --> 01:03:29.280
our peloton. I feel really optimistic
about it. Yeah, so it's been

902
01:03:29.280 --> 01:03:31.760
fun. So if you're on the
fence about it, I would I recommend

903
01:03:31.760 --> 01:03:35.559
it. I think it's pretty cool. On the apps if you don't have

904
01:03:35.639 --> 01:03:37.559
the bike, you can still use
And sounds like we're they're paying it.

905
01:03:37.599 --> 01:03:40.719
They're not. We're just saying this, But I think the app is pretty

906
01:03:40.719 --> 01:03:45.320
good too, like some of the
like there's plates and there's yoga and there's

907
01:03:45.360 --> 01:03:49.559
weights and you can do it on
your treadmill meditation. Again, it sounds

908
01:03:49.559 --> 01:03:52.599
like I'm selling it, but if
you have a different spin bike, you

909
01:03:52.639 --> 01:03:57.039
could you know, definitely use that
with a peloton app. So yeah,

910
01:03:57.079 --> 01:04:00.960
and you were very against anything that
has a month fee, and so am

911
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:03.880
I. But well, my boss
Dave, he is like obsessed with peloton.

912
01:04:03.960 --> 01:04:09.079
He talks about really nothing else.
And that kind of made me.

913
01:04:10.039 --> 01:04:13.079
That kind of made me like,
you know, push back, like I

914
01:04:13.079 --> 01:04:15.119
wanted to be stubborn and be like, well I'm not going to do that

915
01:04:15.159 --> 01:04:17.159
then, but you know you can. You can live, and you can

916
01:04:17.280 --> 01:04:19.679
learn and grow. And we'll talk
to us in six months and see where

917
01:04:19.679 --> 01:04:24.119
we're at. We might be like, it's a fancy clothes singer, So

918
01:04:24.199 --> 01:04:26.400
I don't. I have been doing
it pretty much. We've both been doing

919
01:04:26.400 --> 01:04:28.719
it pretty much every day. Yeah, and I'm not sure if I'm going

920
01:04:28.760 --> 01:04:31.320
to keep up doing it every day
because you know, life is busy.

921
01:04:31.559 --> 01:04:36.239
Yeah. Okay, sorry if we
went on about our workout schedule too much,

922
01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:41.119
But go USA. I hope you
have a great time. Oh thanks,

923
01:04:41.320 --> 01:04:44.760
I look forward to the pictures.
Maybe we can post some pictures for

924
01:04:44.800 --> 01:04:46.679
our listeners. Yeah, well,
I should also mention when I get back

925
01:04:46.719 --> 01:04:51.440
from Paris, I'm going to Columbus, Ohio for a really quick no.

926
01:04:51.519 --> 01:04:56.679
But but we have covered two cases
very close to Columbus, so the piked

927
01:04:56.719 --> 01:05:00.639
In massacre that he just recently did, but then also Matthew Moore and Emily

928
01:05:00.719 --> 01:05:03.559
Noble case we did like a year
ago. Oh yeah, and I actually

929
01:05:03.559 --> 01:05:08.280
I'm planning to go to the location
where her body was found just to get

930
01:05:08.320 --> 01:05:11.559
a visual of Oh really kind of
the Yeah, it's probably changed quite a

931
01:05:11.599 --> 01:05:14.280
bit. I doubt it. I
mean, it's just it's a wooded area,

932
01:05:14.360 --> 01:05:15.719
so I wouldn't think so, but
I will. I will also take

933
01:05:15.719 --> 01:05:18.840
pictures of that. Oh well,
okay, Well, thank you so much

934
01:05:18.840 --> 01:05:21.679
for listening and hanging out with us
today. If you would like to hear

935
01:05:21.920 --> 01:05:27.360
all three parts of this case right
now, consider supporting us on patreon dot

936
01:05:27.400 --> 01:05:30.519
com slash Love Mary Kill five dollars
a month, and we give you early

937
01:05:30.599 --> 01:05:35.119
access, ad free episodes, and
a monthly bonus episode. Please rate,

938
01:05:35.159 --> 01:05:39.719
review, follow and subscribe, find
us on social media, or send us

939
01:05:39.719 --> 01:05:45.559
an email at Love Mary Kill at
gmail dot I'm tired. I almost forgot

940
01:05:45.559 --> 01:06:20.760
our email until next time, don't
kill your husband and don't kill your wife.

941
01:06:03.519 --> 01:06:29.760
The companion to the