Karen Read and John O'Keefe - Part 3 of 3

0:00 Hi. I'm Tina and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of marriage. It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife, and. Some days you'll feel like killing your husband. Welcome to love, Mary, Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina, how are you? I'm pretty good. My mouth is on fire, but other than that, I'm good. Where's your both on fire? I ate some really spicy potato chips just a minute ago, Jimmy John's firecrackers.

0:40 That's not our snack for the episode. No, no, you just ran out to get Jimmy John's for dinner because A it's your favorite, and B we are We've recorded two episodes, three episodes over the last two days. We are both a little fried, and we might get a little slap happy or something maybe might be interesting. I'll have to see. Well, I have good news for you. Our lovely friends in Italy sent us this chest of. Snacks, sent us so many snacks. They sent us so many really good snacks. So there's two left in here. So do you want do you want to reach into this bag here? Reach into your your bag of snacks. Your boxes like yummy? Okay, these are phonzies, Fonzies phonzies. Well, you know, I don't speak Italian, so't I couldn't really tell you what they are. It looks like some sort of chip. Okay, it's so funny that I'm looking at it like I'm trying to read it. I'm like, I uh, and then oh, these are another chippy snack there. I've never seen anything like this in the States. It's like a circular.

1:44 It's like an onion ring, but it's some kind of pizza flavored thing. It looks like so pizza in Italy is pizza. Hmmm? Interesting apparently. All right, well let's try them and we'll be right back. Okay, what did you think? I liked them both? They were They were really good. Really, the pizza anello pizza. It looks like an onion ring, but it's sort of like a it. Looks like a spaghettio. It looks like a spaghettio. It's a circle. Big. I think if you were like a little like a baby, might like them because it's like a you know, melt in your mouth. But Samantha, you did a great job picking out the snacks. It was so fun We loved it. Yeah, and the other snackies. The fonzis it's like a white Cheeto, and it's like the other Cheetos. The Cheeto Cheetos weren't the consistency of a Cheeto, but the Fonzies are the consistency of the Cheeto. It's like, oh, white cheddar Cheeto delicious.

2:47 I would give the Fonzies a ten, because you know I love a cheese flavored snack. And I would give the spaghettio things probably an eight and a half. Okay, I'm gonna give the Fonzies a set. I didn't like them quite as much as the other things. The Anello pizza, though, I really liked a lot. I'm going to give that a nine. Interesting. And I was gonna lie to you, but. There is another kinder Joy put another kid. I knew it, but I know you want me to have it because you love me and I'm adorable. It is true that I do love you and you are adorable. So that I well, you're leave in the country. You're going to freaking Paris. I know. I hope the kinder Joy doesn't disappear tomorrow when I leave.

3:29 Well, I'm pretty sure you can get one at the airport. They'll be fine. I don't feel bad for you. You're going to the Olympics. You're going to perish, You're gonna be okay, you're gonna get snaps. They're going to feed you. Fine, take the take care. Whenever he travels, he sends me pictures of these, you know, Michelin Star type restaurants and dinners, and I'm like at home eating a crust of bread. So if you're gonna guilt me over it, then have the kinder joy. It's all yours. Thank you so much again to our friends Sam and Tam that way, thank you of just a wonderful surprise. We have the best listeners, but you guys went above and beyond. Thank you so much. Gratzi. Wow, I didn't know you spoke Italian. I don't.

4:11 Well, should we finish off this Karen Reid case? We really should? Yes, I'm ready. We started well. When I started writing it, I was like, it's going to be one part, kind of long. It'll be one Nope, nope, No, there's. A lot to talk about here, and I have a feeling this might be a long episode. It might so hang in there with us. We'll try to get through it and make it as interesting and entertaining as possible. Could you maybe summarize parts one and two quickly? I'm not sure people need a ton of summary, but I didn't write anything, so we put you on the spot, and we haven't done this in a while. Yeah, I think, very brief summary. So John O'Keefe who was a police officer.

4:52 Police officer forty six years old. And he was found dead. There was a blizzard, a snowstorm. This was in what year twenty two exactly in January, and he and his girlfriend Karen Reid, had gone out with a bunch of other people to a bar. They drank a lot. They went to someone else's house. The Albert's name. Brian and Nicole. Rian Nicole Alban. Lived just five minutes away from the bar. And they went to their house. Karen dropped John off. He was going to go to the after party and then she was going to go back to John's house. He's been a little inconsistent, right. She's told a few different stories, but the bottom line is he ended up dead in the snow in front of the house and his body was discovered the next morning very early by Karen and Jennifer McCabe, who is Karen's friend or I can't remember the relationship and her friend, but Jennifer McCabe.

5:48 Her sister is Nicole Albert, who is married to Brian. Brian and Nicole own the house that John was found at. Okay, right, So when Karen hadn't heard from John, she called him like overnight. Yeah, never got a hold of him, so she and Jennifer went looking for him, and they found his body in the snow. And there's two theories. One theory is that Karen, in her drunken state John, she and John had been fighting, that she might have hit him angrily after the fight when he got out of the car. And the other theory is that Brian Albert, another man named Brian Higgins, and Brian Albert's nephew Colin Albert, might have beaten John and put him out in the snow to die.

6:33 Right, But all the people at the after party said that he didn't come into the house. I never saw and we're not sure. And Karen was arrested like two days after the murder for I think it was initially involuntary manslaughter and then later they upped it to second degree murder. And yeah, and today we're going to talk about her trial, which just ended recently. Yes, as I was researching the case, something that I kept wondering over and over is where was his body found? Yeah, because I thought, well, Karen dropped him off. She must have dropped him off by the driveway, and his body would be, you know, somewhere between the driveway and the front door, and people were going in and out of the house, and how did no one find this poor man?

7:16 But if you look at the pictures, there's a flagpole that's kind of you know, on the edge of their property, towards the. Road, on the far end, away from the driveway. Yeah. And I had said a couple of episodes ago that it was a couple of one hundred feet away, But you actually found it on Google Earth. Google Maps, Yeah, you can do. You can measure distance on Google Maps. And so like, the distance from the front door or the front of the garage to the flagpole is probably about one hundred and twenty feet or something like that, so fairly far. And if you were walking out of the driveway or backing out of the driveway, you probably wouldn't see something that was if his body was way over by the flagpole. I can see how you wouldn't notice it.

7:58 Yeah, it wasn't the street wasn't lit, and it was dark out and it was snowy at times. The snow and the wind were very strong and heavy, so it was probably very hard to see, but. Not for Karen Reid, who apparently saw his body right away when they pulled up in the morning when it was still dark out. Yes. True. So the trial was set to begin on March twelfth, twenty twenty four. Judge Beverly Conone, with fifteen years of experience on the bench, presided over the high profile case. Judge Conone had previously denied the defense's request to delay the trial, but in February she granted a one month delay due to the amount of discovery, like just trying to write a podcast. There's so much information, so I can't imagine, yeah, you know, either of the attorneys trying to wade through this information. And I think the DA was mostly on his own, and that's just insurmountable amount of work. The prosecution's request for a gag order to protect witnesses from being harassed was struck down by the judge in the case, which is kind of surprising knowing everything about Turtle Boy and how he was kind of harassing posesses. In November twenty twenty three, Karen Reid won an appeal from the Massachusetts Supreme Court to gain access to the cell phone records of Jen McCabe, and that really did change the trajectory of the defense.

9:24 It took five days to see the seventeen person jury. There were twelve jurors and five alternates, ten of those people being women, and they were selected from more than five hundred potential jurors. So you can imagine if you're from the area and you ask them have you heard about this case, that everyone's like, yep, right. So the trial happened around the same time as Donald Trump's trial in New York, and it actually took more time to see the jury and oh, Karen Reid's case, which I thought was kind of interesting. The trial actually began on April twenty first, twenty twenty four. The burden of proof was on the state and they knew it would be a time tough case to prosecute with a largely circumstantial case.

10:04 To get a verdict of second degree murdered, they had to prove there was intent and malice of forethought to kill John O'Keeffe. Karen's defense wanted Judge Conone to recuse herself from the case, claiming that she was related to the mccabes. Another person related, Yeah, which is why some people refer to her as Auntie Bev. I believed Turtle Boy found that connection and was something about one of Jennifer McCabe's relatives and a cottage. I don't really have any more information than that, Okay, the judge said, quote, I know very well the importance of a fair and impartial judge, and I know full well how to follow my oath and comply with my ethical obligations. So she refused to recuse herself. Protesters, largely organized and encouraged by Turtle Boy, lying the streets surrounding the courthouse and support of Karen Reid, wearing pink or free Karen t shirts in a carnival like atmosphere forgot.

11:15 We're we're here today and we're not gonna be quiet. It does sound pretty carnival like. Some of the witnesses were booed, and I think John O'Keefe's family was booed. Oh that's not cool, Judge. Conone band wearing pink in the courtroom, en ruled that supporters must maintain a two hundred feet buffer zone from the courthouse. Karen Reid supporters filed a lawsuit stating that their First Amendment rights were being violated. The case went to the state Supreme Court, where they upheld Judge Conone's ruling to maintain a buffer zone to protect witness and family members. That's kind of nuts, isn't it? Like these supporters really support Karen Reid. Yeah, And it wasn't a few people, it was hundreds. A smaller number of protesters showed support for John O'Keefe, wearing buttons that said justice for JJ and holding signs that said justice for Officer O'Keefe while yelling cop killer at Karen Reid. From the beginning, Karen has had strong public support. Crowdfunding has raised almost four hundred thousand dollars towards her legal defense. About a dozen of Karen's family members showed up in court to support her. Why do you think Karen has so much public support?

12:39 I don't know. It's a good question. I mean, I think people love a good story that has scandal and corruption, and they like to fight against that. But I guess I'm not sure really why this specific case has captured so much attention. It is surprising too, because a police officer died, and normally when a police officer dies. Public rally around the police officers. Yeah. Well, Karen supporters have said that they see her in themselves, a woman against an entire bureaucracy. They want to help her get through it and beat the system. The Boston Police Department in Massachusetts, State police have had numerous scandals in recent history, and many residents are afraid that police are just corrupt and not above framing a citizen. The scandals in the Boston Police Department include falsifying time records to be paid overtime. Patrick Rose, a former police officer, was charged with multiple counts of child sexual abuse. It was later revealed that the department had allowed him to continue working despite earlier accusations. Reports of widespread corruption, including bribery, drug trafficking, and other forms of misconduct, have plagued the department over the years. The Boston Police Department has faced criticism for its handling of racism and discrimination within the fours, as well as accusations of racial profiling. And excits of use of force against minority communities. The state police have been plagued with similar scandals. The Massachusetts governor has even weighed in on the case. Governor Mara Heally strongly criticized

14:12 state Trooper Michael Proctor for his conduct in the Karen Reid case, calling it terrible and completely unprofessional. She said as behavior undermined the dignity and integrity of law enforcement. She expressed disgust at Practic's vulgar and inappropriate text messages about Karen Reid, but refrained from further comments on the trial since it is ongoing. Yeah, I think it wasn't going. Yeah. I think that his comments, which we talked about on the last episode, were so disgusting and so unprofessional that I can I could see how that would be a big reason why people would be supporting Karen Reid in this case, just hearing his comments. I think that's a I think that's part of it too. There was an issue with a courtroom early on. The defense claimed that the sightlines of the jurors to see the witnesses were obstructed. So this courtroom is one hundred year years old and they've never had an issue but Alan Jackson comes into town and he's like, this isn't okay, and he's he's right, I mean the juror should be red when so they had to change courtrooms, and the courtroom that they moved to was very small. It only held about sixty people and only ten media were allowed into the courtroom each day and only a handful of observers at a time other than the family members.

15:26 Was it televised live? I know it was. It was recorded. Okay, that's good. On day four of the trial, the jury took a field trip to the Albert's house. Karen Reid was represented by Alan Jackson and David Yannetti. Mister Jackson, a former prosecutor, is a well known attorney based in Los Angeles who has represented high profile clients such as Kevin Spacey, Nissan, Joaquin Garcia, the leader of the Mexico based megachurch La Luz del Mundo, who faced sex crime charges, a Saudi prince accused of rape, and several athletes. It's charged with domestic of violence. So he's kind of represented some shady people, not saying that Karen read is shady.

16:09 Yeah, that's what defense attorneys do, though. He was the prosecutor in the Phil Spector case way back when. Okay, do you remember that case? Oh? Of course. All the witnesses in the first five days of the trial were first responders, fourteen in total. The judge allowed a third party culprit defense, meaning the defenses allowed to introduce another possible suspect, specifically, in this case, someone else at the Albert House, Brian Albert, Colin Albert, and Brian Higgins, who we've talked about several times. The prosecution called over sixty witnesses during the eight week trial, presenting two hundred exhibits and six hundred pieces of evidence. That's a lot of evidence. It is a lot. I need to tell you guys about a spreadsheet that I found on Reddit, this amazing user called Sleuthy Goosey.

16:55 I think she might have a YouTube channel too, but she has broken down the case by the timeline, the evidence, the exhibits, the pictures. I think I saw almost all of the six hundred pictures, and we will put that link in our show notes. It's one of the top five sources. Okay, but check that out because it's it is amazing. I took a look at it earlier and it is really amazing. It's just a big spreadsheet, but it's got links to everything you could ever want to know about it. It's amazing. The prosecution was criticized for the slow pace of their case and the number of superfluous witnesses. The judge and jurors were visibly frustrated. Legal experts were confused by the order of witnesses and did not think that they were winning over the jury or proving their case beyond a reasonable doubt. Three of the five EMT's testified that they heard Karen Reid say I hit him. Several people said that Karen confessed.

17:52 After the fire department arrived and they sort of takeover resacitative efforts with regard to misterial keif what if any observations did you make of misread and she was doing or. Saying about mistery was visibly upset. She kept saying, this is all my fault, this is my fault. I did this. As I was ventilating, I was able to ask did. Anybody see anything? Did anybody what happened? And there was one individual that replied, several times, I hit him, I hit him. He indicated that the defendant said but I did him. Is that correct? Yes, that's something that she said once or more. Than three times. I hit him. I hit him. I hit him. Earlier it was could I did I.

18:33 When she spoke to the paramedic, it was Crystal Claire, I hit him. That last witness was Jennifer McCabe, who we will hear more from in a little bit. Brian Albert testified that he traded in his cell phone for a new one the day before a court order was issued to preserve it. He said that he needed an upgrade. He claimed that he did not know all of the data on that phone would be factory reset and destroyed. Julie Nagel, a friend of Brian Albert Junior, testified that she saw what she called a black blob five or six feet in length near the flagpole when she left the party around one forty five am, but admitted she was intoxicated and wasn't sure what she saw.

19:15 She said the blob was quote close to the street, but in their lawn, kind of in front of the flagpole unquote. This was the first time she had told anyone about what she saw. On the night of January twenty ninth, she testified that she did not believe the blob to be a body at the time. If she had known, she would have called nine one one, She. Said, this points again to the shoddy police work that was done. She's on the witness stand and this is the first time she's recounting this story. So did she she never talked to the police or she never told them that she must. Have talked to the police in some capacity. I'm not positive, but this is the first time that she said that she saw the blob. Wow. Firefighter Katie McLoughlin was accused of perjury by the defense.

19:57 Katie was one of the first responders at the crime scene. She testified at the trial that she and Caitlyn Albert were acquaintances but not really friends, although they'd grown up together and had mutual friends. Several group photos of Katie and Caitlin were found on Facebook, and the defense questioned Katie's ability to remain neutral in her testimony. This case is so complicated because so many parties involved were related or born and raised in the Canton, Massachusetts area, and many have a background in law enforcement. Caitlyn Albert is the daughter of Brian and Nicole, the homeowners of thirty four Fairview. Road, Okay. Matthew McCabe, husband of Jen, testified to seeing a black suv approached the Albert's house on the night in question, but never saw anyone get out. He assumed it was Karen and John. He saw the suv move up the road a bit near the flagpole and then later noticed it was gone, but saw tire tracks in the snow. Two detectives admitted they initially didn't see fragm of a broken tail light at the scene. In total, forty five pieces of tail light were collected on four separate occasions. A crash reconstructionist testified that they believed that John's injuries were consistent with being hit by an suv going twenty four miles per hour and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe. In Part one, we talked about the fact that her Lexus data showed that she had gone backwards at twenty five miles per hour right

21:27 for a she. I believe went in reverse for sixty feet at twenty four point two miles per hour. Okay. The medical examiner testified that John's injuries could have been caused by a large dog, could have been that surprises me a little bit that the medical examiner would. Say that it wasn't in the autopsy, but during their cross examination that they did say that yeah. Ryan Higgins testified that he got rid of his cell phone after he learned that his number was public when a target in an investigation he was working on called him. This happened in July twenty two, but Brian didn't purchase a new phone until September twenty twenty two, the day before he received the order to hand over his phone to law enforcement. He claimed his phone was old and beaten up and he needed a new one. He claimed that he was driving near a military base in Cape Cod and through the cell phone and corresponding simcard he destroyed into a dumpster, as one does. Of course, he didn't transfer data from the old phone to the new phone, including personal pictures. On the witness stand, Brian read the flirtatious text messages between Karen and him. If you recall, I think it was in part one we talked about the fact that Karen and Brian had a little flirtation and shared a kiss right two weeks.

22:43 Before John's death, Brian had come over to John's house to watch a football game. I think the date was January fifteenth, and I think the start the text messages that were going to re take place over like a ten day period, and they start, I believe, the night of the football game. So Karen's tech him while he's sitting there watching the game with John. Okay, you're hot? Are you serious or messing with me? No? I'm serious? Feeling is mutual? Is that bad? Are you okay? Driving? You don't want to stay here? I wish I think you're messing with me. Why do you think that? Because this is so out of left field? Where do these feelings come from? I just think you're like me?

23:23 Meaning? Do you have your own kids? I have no kids? How am I like you? Hello? Aren't we alike? I think? So? Shoot straight with me? I told you. I just think we're like right? Yes? Agree? Now? What? I don't know? Shouldn't you know? Do you like me? Yes? From Jump? When was jump? First time I saw you? When were you interested? I don't know? You're just my type? You think you can handle me. I thought you were happy. How do you know if I'm happy? I've always thought that about you? What that you're hot? Smart, witty?

24:03 But didn't think you were interested witty yes, meaning quick with a response. Tell me why you got my number and reached out to me. Just thought we were the same from the same neighborhood. I'm glad I stopped by. I should have come earlier. Do you really live in Mansfield? Yeah? I was basically begging you to You don't have to. Bed me beg huh. I will give you whatever you want. How are you texting right now? Uugh? Leave me hanging. No, all's in your court. What do you want? Loaded question? What do you want? I asked you. Nope, you initiated this. Are you breaking up or staying together?

24:43 I don't know. He hooked up with another girl on vacation. I am very close to his niece. It's a very fucked up situation. When was that and how did you find out they hooked up? I don't want to complicate your situation. We went away for New Year's the four of us. I put the kids to bed and found him in the lobbyer roa hotel, all over one of our friends. Whatever, it doesn't matter, Okay, just to break in for a second. Remember like nothing probably happened, and Karen even apologized and ended up paying for the woman's hotel room. Yeah, he was hugging. He was hugging a friend and her boyfriend was with him. So it does matter. Did they bang? Does that matter? Sorry? I was just asking. I was just trying to figure shit out.

25:26 It doesn't really matter. Okay, I won't ask again. I don't care. It doesn't matter. Okay. Hear you loud and clear, Karen. We did kiss earlier. No, I think you initiated that. No, yep, do I owe you an apology? Oh my god? No, Why are you being sensitive? What do you want from me? What's on the table? What do you want? Ideally the real deal? I'm not abnormally sensitive. Ah, I won't be so hard on you. Oh my god, you're not. You called me trouble. That makes me sound bad. I was just playing with you. Yeah you weren't. But that's okay. Like I said earlier, these texts happened like over seven to ten days. They seemed to end about January twenty third, and Karen ghosted.

26:12 Brian all Right said yeah. On January twenty ninth, she texted Brian only John died. Brian said the whole experience was confusing for him. One night Karen showed up at his place, and he claims nothing happened, she didn't stay long, and the whole incident had a very weird vibe, is what he said. So he had to read a lot of these text messages at trial, and I just think that must have been a little uncomfortable, super awkward for everyone involved. We'll be right back after a break. Massachusetts State Trooper Michael Procter spent two days on the witness stand. He was a gift to the defense. On day twenty three of the trial, Proctor was forced to read some of his controversial text message is allowed in court.

27:04 So these came from me. From all accounts, he didn't do anything wrong. She's a whack job cuntess, so don't spell it. You have to. So these are your words, Trooper Proctor, yarnal, go ahead and say them. Yes, she's a babe. We ha fall river accent, though, though no ask. He also respond with she's got a leaky not leak's pooh, And what if anything is that in reference to misread some medical conditions? There if you like women who ship themselves the answer, what is it that you're referring to?

27:50 There? Again, a regrettable comment that made about miss Read's medical condition. I respond said, the altbuts beat the ship out of O'Keefe, left him for dead, and that's why our tale I was cracked. She's gross tributa Chico. Oh fuck her, bitch, and we I conducted multiple interviews. Speak Up conducted multiple interviews when these came from me. Finally, I'm going through is retarded client's phone? No nude so far? I hate that man, I truly hate him. What did you write after you talked about going through the quote retarded client's phone? Jaction allow it?

28:32 Uh, no nudes so far, No nudes so far? Correct? Correct? And you send that to your bosses? Yes, sir, you regrettable comments in there. He's vile, disgusting. I'm glad that judge made him read them out loud and own up to his words. He should have to have comments tattooed to a forehead or something. He acknowledged the unprofessional nature of his text, but was adamant that his conduct did not impede the investigation. He said on the witness stand quote, unprofessional and regrettable comments are something I am not proud and I shouldn't have wrote in private or any type of setting had zero impact on the facts and evidence and integrity of the investigation. Ryan Albert's brother, Chris, is married to Julie Albert. Remember, Chris owns the pizza shop and he's the town selectman. Julie is close friends with Courtney Proctor. Trooper Proctor's sister, Julie was the daycare provider for Courtney's children, so those are pretty close ties. Courtney sent a text to her brother after she'd spoken to Julie early in the investigation that said, quote, when this is all over, she wants to get you a thank you gift. He replied, get Elizabeth one, referring to his wife, who'd been solo parenting since he'd been leading the investigation. He said on the witness stand, I have never received a gift. I never asked for a gift my wife. I've never received a gift. My wife never asked for a gift. I think that he had

30:05 called Julie because she was actually going to maybe be the daycare provider for his children as well. Okay, just would want to avoid any appearance of impropriety in the position that he is in. I just don't get it. Courtney Proctor and Julie Albert talked sixty seven times between February first, twenty twenty two and September twenty twenty two. Julie said she didn't remember what they talked about, but she talks a lot, and that was an unusual amount for her. This next part is very complicated and confusing, and you helped me flesh it out a little. Bit, yes, and I will do my best to try to elaborate, but it is very confusing and.

30:45 It could be the whole case, in my opinion. Jennifer mccape spent three days testifying. Jennifer's sister, Nicole, is married to Brian Albert. I'm sorry I keep repeating his relationships, but I think it's really confusing and I just want to help everyone. The after party was at Nicole and Bryan's house. Jennifer is also friends with Courtney Procter, officer Michael Procter's sister. She was a fiery witness. When she was interviewed by police, she recalled that Karen said, did I hit him? When they found John lying in Brian's yard, But during the trial, Jennifer testified that Karen said I hit him that is the first time that people heard this version of events from her. It's a subtle difference. But did I hit him or I hit him?

31:26 Important? Jennifer was questioned about seven unanswered calls from her phone to John O'Keefe's phone on January twenty ninth, from twelve twenty nine to twelve fifty The calls were later deleted from her call log. She claimed they were butt dials and had no recollection of deleting the calls. A data expert at the trial said there was no evidence of deletions. A different expert said that the cookies were deleted, not the searches. So I don't think these calls that she said were butt dials. I don't think these really implicate her. No, because we noticed she called him looking for like, where are you at. Right right here? So I don't know why she wouldn't just say, oh, yeah, I was just worried about him.

32:08 We hadn't showed up any house yet. Yeah, that's very strange. Alan Jackson confronted Jen McKay with data from Celebrate, a company that forensically searches electronic devices. Jackson showed a log file entry that seemed to indicate that Jen searched has hos longed to die in cold has presumably a typo for how at two twenty seven am. Jen said that she did not make the search at this time. She claimed that she made the search at six twenty four am, after she and Karen discovered John's body. Jen said Karen asked her to google hypothermia how long does it take to die in the cold? Because it was cold outside and her hands were shaking. She mistyped. There was another search at six twenty four am how long TI die in CIKD with different typos. Jen said she re entered the search because of the typos. And this is a critical part of the case because if Jen did search how long to die in the cold at two twenty seven am, that changes everything. And I think that's the whole case if that search did happen, right, because she's she gets home, she's laying in bed, She's like, oh my god, what happened? What did we do? How long is it going to take him to die?

33:28 Right? The Jensics explanation was when they got home from the party at two twenty seven am, she was thinking about her daughter's new basketball team. Her daughter in high school, and she was invited to join this new team, and she was googling about the basketball team, right and she didn't search for anything else at two twenty seven. Am, according to her. According to her, the prosecution's forensic experts say that the two twenty seven am timestamp for that search is inaccurate because it was from a log file that shows the last time the browser tab was viewed, not the actual time of the search itself. In other words, I'm sorry, this is just really confuting. In other words, if she viewed the browser tab at two twenty seven am when making the basketball search, then pulled up the same browser tab again at six twenty four am to make the how long to die in cold search, the log file would show the last time the tab was viewed, in this case, to twenty seven am. Here's a clip from the defense questioning of Jen McCabe's.

34:33 Mackay, the reason you deleted that to twenty seven am call is because you realized that if you were caught googling how long it takes for a person. To die in the hole three. And a half hours before John's body is found, that would incriminate you would objection the objection sustained. Did you delete that search because you knew that you would be implicated in John O'Keefe's death if that. Search was found on your phone? Objection, could you answer that please? I did not delete that search. I never made that search at two twenty three. I never would have left John O'Keefe out in the cold to die because.

35:14 He was my friend that I loved. But he's not Your family is. Family, and friends. Sustain. So I know this stuff is super confusing, and I am not a computer expert by any means. You would think, like with computer data forensics, everything would be very clear and cut and dried. But we talked about this in the last episode, where you would think everything is just very objective, like oh, you searched at this time and yeah, but it's. So complicated, and I think when when people, lawyers and experts try to present it to a jury, it can get very confusing. I reached out to my friend Patrick, So if you are a listener of our podcast, you may know Patrick as my snack consultant. But Patrick is also a technologist. He is a jack of all trades, he really is. He's a great and he's been like a chief Technology officer. He's actually worked in digital forensics, and so I sent him some of the logs and some of the evidence that came from Celebrate and he explained it to me, and I think it it makes sense.

36:15 It's it's going to be hard for me to explain clearly, but essentially, the the log file that they that they showed that said two twenty seven am she made this search for how long to die in the Cold is not the time she made that search. And his view was that they never should have used that log file because that log file doesn't accurately show when someone typed in a search. It showed when the browser was opened, and so if she opened the browser evidence I'm saying they should have used the event log which would have showed exactly when she made the search, not the tab history database which showed when she opened the browser or when she opened the tab. So long story short. In Patrick's opinion, and I trust him on this, he believes that the searches were made at six twenty four am, not at to twenty seven or am or whatever the times were, and he's pretty confident of that, and he looked through all of the different reports, including the report by the defense expert, who said that he believed the searches were done at two twenty seven am. Patrick believes that the defense expert was not reading that correctly, you know, based on the data that was there.

37:33 But Alan Jackson at the trial presented there were multiple searches, like allegedly, if the two twenty seven am search happened, haslong to dian Cold, then her next search was how TI die in CKLD, and then the one after that was hoslong to die in Cold. So it almost looked like she wanted to delete that search from two twenty seven am. She was like, you know, the crimes since she was like, oh, I need to delete that and I can search it again, so it doesn't look like I searched that in the middle of the night. And then she made a typo again and then she was like, oh, I need to make the same typo. So she had searched like the same thing three times, and Alan Jackson just harped on her over and over about that, like, you know, why did you search for the same thing at six twenty three and six twenty four am.

38:25 Right, So, what I believe from what I've been able to understand, is she made two searches, one at six twenty three and fifty seconds or whatever. That was the how tim search. Then she made the other one very shortly after that, which was the haas hos to die. Now I don't know. For me, I can't explain exactly why that second search is the one that showed up in the browser tab at two twenty seven am. So to me, that's kind of confusing because you would think that that the first search that she made would have been the one that showed up at two twenty seven am. Yes, I agree, I don't have an explanation for that.

39:06 Well, thank you for trying to explain it, and a huge things to Patrick who is always there to support us and help us out when we need. Its super helpful. But this it's just super confusing. Oh, it totally is. And I can I can completely understand if you're on a jury and you're hearing these explanations from these experts, and you know, it just doesn't make heads or tails. It's not logical, right because you're like I at my computer, like I searched, and you would think that the search would show up at the time that you searched it. Yeah, one would think, all right, we're going to try. To move on from that. The prosecution called a snowplow driver named Lucky who had plowed in front of the Elbert's home. He said he did not see a body in front of their house on the night of January twenty ninth. However, he did see a ford edge. We talked about this a little bit ago, and being a snowplow driver, I think you have a pretty good vantage point.

39:56 You're up a little higher, you've got some bright lights. Right here's Turtle Boy talking about the snowplow evidence. And by the way, Vinnie, I was there to find out who plowed Fairview Road the night of January the morning of January twenty ninth, twenty twenty two, because they never interviewed the plow driver. And guess what, two months later I found that driver. His name is Brian Lucky Loughran. He plowed Fairview Road at two thirty in the morning. He went right by the house and John O'Keeffe's body was not on the front lawn. He also told me in an exclusive interview that he saw a ford edge park directly next to where John O'Keefe's body would be discovered three hours later, and he had been interviewed by the FBI about that, and why didn't the state police find this guy? Why didn't they track this guy down?

40:44 Because they didn't want to track him down because his information, his testimony proved that John O'Keefe was not killed by Karen Reid at twelve thirty because he was not on that line of two thirty. And since breaking the story in August of twenty twenty two, the State Police to this day have done zero work to find out who was driving that ford Edge parked right next to John o'keef's body at three in the morning. You know why Thenny, Because they're too busy calling up ex girlfriends of mine and someone named Natalie and finding out how many times I talked to Karen Reid, As if that matters, why don't they find out who's driving that ford Edge? Don't they want to know who killed the Boston police officer because as sure as heck, wasn't Karen Reid because there was nobody on the lawn at two thirty. That's what I was doing in that clip, actual journalism that no other reporter is willing to do, and no police in this case are willing to do.

41:36 He's very passionate about this case, and he knows he does know his stuff. That seems strange that the prosecution would have called Lucky because it seems like he'd be a defense testimony was more in support of the defense. Sometimes the prosecution will call a witness that seems more like their defense witness to. Just a head off and he exiting that. Therefore, see, yes, not to question Lucky's account of what happened, but I do wonder how how easy it would be to remember exactly. I know there's a flag pole and maybe that's a landmark, but how easy it would remember to say, I didn't see a body in this exact spot, and I saw a car in this exact spot if you're driving around all these streets at night.

42:21 I don't know if he was local, but I think he was familiar with the Alberts home, and he just said I'd never seen that Ford edge there before. Okay, Allegedly Colin Albert may have driven a Ford edge. Hmm. Okay. The defense only had two days of testimony and they only called six witnesses. Their case hinged on one or more of the men at the Albert Home, beating John O'Keefe nearly to death and throwing him out into the snow to die. Earlier in the night, at the Waterfall Bar, Albert, Brian Albert, and Brian Higgins were seen play fighting, and the defense alleged that they were warming up for later. Okay, so they really wanted to believe that this was pre medded to and whatever you think in this case, I don't think you can say that it was premeditated.

43:05 I sure wouldn't think so. The defense called a forensic pathologist who believed the scratches from John's arm could have been caused by a dog. Two crime scene reconstructionists who didn't believe John's injuries were consistent with being hit by a car. One testified that the broken tail light was not consistent with the damage that would be caused by a human body part coming into contact with it. They also called Richard Green, an expert in digital forensics, and he did believe that John McCabe searched how long to die in the cold At two twenty seven am. Doctor Marie Russell testified that she detected combinations of bitemarks and scratches on the arm and puncture wounds on John's shirt. She said that she saw parallel wounds on his arm that could have been caused by scratches or teeth. She said she did not believe he was hit by a car. It just so hard in these trials when they the information of the expert witnesses have.

44:02 Such completely opposite testimony. Yeah. I wanted to find a clip where you could see like the two different testimonies side by side. But it's really frustrating, and it is a juror. It must be so hard to make heads or tails of it, Like you just have to pick a fighter. Yeah. Who. Karen Reid did not testify on her own behalf at the trial. Some have called Karen Reid out for her behavior during the trial. She had been seen making faces, winking at cameras and snacking. Why are they denegrating snacking? I know, out rage. She has been criticized for the length of her skirts and the cost of her clothing. Eagle eyed observers noted one of her jackets was a Veronica beard piece that retails for six hundred and ninety five dollars. If you didn't know what Karen looked like, it would be hard to discern her from her defense team. She remained calm and professional, rarely showing emotion during the trial, although she did seem to react to certain witnesses and sometimes smirked when they testified. The jury began deliberations on Tuesday, June twenty fifth, less than ten percent of jury's deadlock according to the Court Statistics Project. Before lunch on Friday, June twenty eighth, the fourth day of deliberations, the jury sent a note to the judge and told her that they were unable to reach a unanimous verdict. The judge told them they hadn't deliberated long enough to declare a deadlock and asked them to keep working after lunch. At the end of the day Friday, they still hadn't reached a consensus.

45:35 On Monday morning, July first, the jury again reached out to the judge and said, quote, we are deeply divided by fundamental differences in our opinions and state of mind. The divergence in our views are not rooted in a lack of understanding or effort, but deeply held convictions that each of us carry, ultimately leading to a point where consensus is unattainable. End quote, that's. Quite a cent that's quite a statement, right, yeah. Pressed by the way it was worded. Judge Canone again reminded them of the importance of working together to reach a verdict. Canoni told them to keep deliberating under a last resort measure called the Tui Rodriguez instruction, also known as the Allen charge in some jurisdictions. It is a directive given by a judge to a deadlock jury to encourage them to continue deliberating until they reach a verdict. It reminds the jurors that they are in a unique position and are the people best equipped to decide the case. The instruction emphasizes the importance of reaching a unanimous decision and encourages jurors to listen to each other's viewpoints and re examine their own positions while maintaining their honest convictions. This instruction aims to prevent a mistrial by promoting further discussion and consideration among the jurors.

46:50 It's kind of wild to me, because you know, they've been doing this for days and days, and I'm sure they did everything in their power to reach a verdict until the judge keeps telling them nope, keep going. You've tried to go back to your room. The jury returned in the early afternoon and again declared that they were stuck. Despite our rigorous efforts, we continue to find ourselves at an impasse. Our perspectives on the evidence are starkly divided. Some members of the jury firmly believe that the evidence surpasses the burden of proof, establishing the elements of the charges beyond of reasonable doubt. Conversely, others find the evidence fails to meet this standard and does not sufficiently establish the necessary elements of the charges. The deep division is not due to a lack of effort or diligence, but rather a sincere adherence to our individual principles and moral convictions.

47:44 To continue to deliberate would be futile and only serve to force us to compromise these deeply held beliefs. I'm not going to do that to you, folks. Your service is complete. I'm declaring a mistrial. In this case. That's kind of trading for prosecutors, especially after all the work. They put in, and well for everyone, yeah, and for the defendant who has paid a lot of money. For true good point. It's unclear at this time whether prosecutors will retry the case against Karen Reid. A hearing will be held on July twenty second, which is two days from the time we're actually recording this, but will have passed by the time you're most likely listening to this, So we will come back and do a quick update and insert it here into.

48:33 I would like the tires. Oh, we're so close, but we don't know what's going to happen yet. It'll be really interesting to see what they what they decide though. After the mistrial was declared, Paul O'Keefe, John's brother, told WBZ TV quote, throughout the trial, she liked to turn and look at me and smirk. She has never once made eye contact with my wife Erin, so when the mistrial was announced, she turned and looked right at Aarin and gave her a smirk. End quote. After the this trial was declared, Paul told Karen, quote, you're not done yet. Unquote. Prior to John's death, I believe John's family liked Karen quite a bit and they were all pretty tight. Yeah, we'll rest in peace. John O'Keefe. John was a beloved son, brother, uncle, and father. John's friends and family have taken to buying a bud light for him when they go out to remember him. His absence is a gaping hole to his family, especially Kayley and Patrick, who have now lost three of the most important people in their life. John gave a eulogy at his sister's funeral, and referring to her children, he said, quote, We'll take it from here. His brother repeated the same words at John's funeral, So we send our thoughts and love to Kailey and Patrick. On Monday, July first, hours after the mistrial was announced, Michael Proctor was quote relieved of his duties at the Norfolk County District Attorney's Office and was reassigned to Troopy.

49:56 Dot how right something, whatever it is. Interim State Police Superintendent Colonel John Maun released the following statement. Quote. Upon learning today's result, the department took immediate action to relieve Trooper Michael Procter of duty and formally transfer him out of Norfolk County District Attorney's Office State Police Detective Unit. This follows our previous decision to open an internal affairs investigation after information about serious misconduct emerged in testimony at the trial. The investigation is ongoing end quote. I'm sure that is the only bad apple, now, are you right?

50:37 Yeah? Likely not, But I hope Troop H is a miserable place. Because he sang out it's like a Proctor was forced to relinquish his badge, gun and uniforms. One week after the trial, after a closed door disciplinary hearing, he was suspended without pay while the investigation continues, which is a big deal because a lot of times officers are given their pay right. State Police Association of Massachusetts President Brian Williams said, in regards to Proctor's suspension quote, we would like to reiterate that unless the department's ongoing investigation proves otherwise, yesterday's action have no relationship to salacious allegations of cover ups, collusions, or conspiracies offered by the defense end quote. He said Proctor was suspended because of the content of his text messages, not his work on the investigations.

51:30 And hard to separate those things out, Isn't it that makes you so mad? Kevin Albert, another brother of Brian Albert's that we haven't talked about yet, also a police officer, was placed on paid administrative leave in June twenty twenty four. His actions in the Karen Reid case are under review by independent investigation. I'm not really sure what he did. Dateline was at the trial. Of course, Dennis Murphy interviewed Karen and it was played on the Today Show. We're not going to play it, but you can find that online. That should be out pretty soon. On Friday, July nineteenth, Netflix announced a new three part docu series about the case. Again not surprising.

52:13 Yeah, that's quick, though, there's. Going to be a lot well, I'm not saying it's going to be released any time. So the fact that I announced it even quick. There will likely be you know, lifetime movies and books. And at this point there are no restrictions to Karen read making money from the case. And Turtle Boy has also been approached by Netflix. I mean, he is a really interesting character and whether you agree with him or not, he's very well spoken, and he's smart, and like. You said earlier, he's brought a lot of attention to this case and really raised the visibility of it. Right. I mension he's handsome too. I'm afraid he and his followers are going to come from us. And April article in the Boston Globe revealed that John's parents have custody of k and Patrick at this time, I'm not sure if that will change or not. On July seventeenth, Karen put her Mansfield, Massachusetts home up for sale. It's a four bedroom, three bath home, twenty five hundred square feet where you know I'm obsessed with realists. Oh yeah, for eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars. I think I put a link in her show notes if you want to see Karen's house, lovely house. I just wanted to point out that there's a lot of money to be made in true crime.

53:27 There is and. For everyone, Okay, for some people, like if we became high profile like turn a Boy, we'd probably be raking in. We might be getting a Lexus. But there's a lot of money to be made. And with a case, a high profile case like Karen, read exponentially, so there is a lot of interest. And content creators are paid by clicks, views, and downloads. A popular TikTok YouTube or podcast can become viral consumers. We need to be cautious of content creators intent. A conspiracy theory is much more titillating than a cotton dry salt case. Everyone makes a lot more money in a case like Karen reads, and it behooves the creators to feed conspiracy theory.

54:16 It's very well said, and I think it's a really really important point to make. And we're making money. I mean, we have not yet bought a lot. We did we did buy a peloton. We did buy a peloton. Yes, but that's the best thing. To Alexis and we're I mean, we're guilty of it to to a certain extent. We're doing the Karen Reid trial because we know people will want to listen to it and it will get us more clicks and download. So I don't want to pretend like we're above it, because we're not. But we're also I think our listeners are. They know that we try our best to be objective and ethical. And yeah, we really try hard to be authentic and be who we are, which is I think by our both of our natures. We are both tried it really hard to be objective and not jump to conclusions.

55:03 But I do jump to especially me. I'm pretty emotional, and if I think the husband did it, I'm not afraid to say it. But we do our best, that's all. I'm trying to say, but you know, just I think people are smart and they can make their own decisions, but I just wanted to put that in there. On Monday, July eighth, Karen Read's lawyers moved to have two of the three charges against her dropped after learning that during their deliberation, the jury had unanimously found her innocent on two of the charges, second degree murder and leaving the scene of a deadly accident in emotion. They argued that if she were tried for the two charges again, it would violate double jeopardy laws. The third charge, manslaughter while operating a motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol, was the charge that the jury was deadlocked over.

55:50 Wow. Interesting, Yeah, and I think they came to the two conclusions fairly quickly. Three jurors. Actually it might be five now because I wrote this, I think it's five. Five jurors in the case contacted Karen Read's lawyers to inform them of the jury's findings. The jurors were frustrated that their findings were not made public, and they didn't want Karen to retried on the two counts that they unanimously found her innocent. Off. In response, the Norfolk District Attorney's office said in a statement they are quote examining the motion in anticipation of filing a response. We look forward to picking a new trial date on July twenty second. According to NBC ten Boston, they say the defense's arguments are based on quote hearsay, conjecture and legally inappropriate reliance as to the substance of jury deliberations. The prosecutors call Karen's lawyers, claims that the jury ever reached any unanimous decision and any of the charges unsubstantiated and sensational, and they plan to file a response soon and leave. At this point, they are saying that they are going to retry the case.

57:04 Wow. Interesting, It'll be interesting to see what the ruling is on that because I can I can sort of see both sides that, Yeah, it's based on hearsay, but still if the jurors, all. You get answer is the cost and the emotion. Yeah. Well, I think even before learning this news, my feeling was that secondary murder didn't. Had Tod just put a trial in the first place. Really, involuntary manslaughter, I could see that being a good question, But secondary murder now. So fast forward three weeks. It's Sunday, August fourth, and we recorded the Karen Reid episodes three weeks ago, and in that time, on Monday July twenty second, three weeks after this trial was declared, Judge Beverly Conone scheduled January fourteenth, twenty twenty five, for a pre trial. Come in January twenty seventh, twenty twenty five as a new trial date.

58:05 The hearing lasted less than five minutes, so they're going to go ahead and retry her. Oh, I'm a little surprised. On August ninth, the judge will hear the defense's motion to dismiss some of the charges against Karen Reid. The two charges that several jurors came forward to notify the defense that they were unanimous on second degree murder and leaving the scene of a fatal accident. I've since learned, you know, when the jury goes into the jury room to start making their deliberations, they take an initial vote. The initial vote, I think on the two charges that they were unanimous on were unanimous from the beginning, and the charge of manslaughter was six to six initially, then it was eight to four and then ultimately nine to three in favor of in favor of not guilty.

58:54 Okay. Karen Reid's defense attorney, Alan Jackson wrote in court documents, quote, there was no manifest necessity for a mistrial as to those counts, and therefore the double jeopardy protections of the federal and state constitutions require that those counts not be tried. It's very tricky, and I don't know if there's a lot of precedent on a case like this. I've heard legal scholars say that they probably will not dismiss those charges, that they will go ahead and try them again. But it's such a costly trial. Yeah, hundreds of people once again gathered around the courthouse in support of Karen, and it appears that Massachusetts attorney David Yannetti and high profile attorney Alan Jackson will continue to represent Karen Reid.

59:39 Wow, it's going to be such a costly trial, and I think the odds of them getting a conviction is it's not great. They can't get rid of Michael proct Now. He's always going to be an issue in this case moving forward. And sadly, the people of Canton are still very divided. I heard that some people that that were supporters of Karen Reid had like balloons filled with bleach like thrown out of their yards and into their gardens. It's just very divided and it's really tragic. Yeah, for sure. I have some questions for you. Now, should Karen's trial been moved out of Canton, Massachusetts? And I say that, but it actually was in Detum, not in Canton, but it's only like I think five to ten miles away.

1:00:33 Should she her case in trial? My opinion is yes, it's just with all the close relationships and all, it just seems like that would have made sense. Yeah, considering her blood and alcohol content. Should Karen have been tried for second degree murder? The kind of talked about this already. Yeah, I already kind of answered that in my opinion. No, if if she was responsible for killing John, to me, it seems like it was involuntary manslaughter, Like it probably wasn't premeditated, It probably wasn't planned. Yeah, if she was black out drunk, there was no intent there. Right, This is conjecture on my part. But Brian Albert said he let Chloe the dog out when they got home from the bar, so you know, like twelve fifteen ish, and that's around the time that John and Karen pulled up. So I'm wondering if maybe Chloe could have attacked him, maybe and he could have hit his head on something.

1:01:26 Yeah, I suppose that's was sound kind of by the curb. Yeah, I do feel like you know, you showed me the pictures of his arm, the injuries on his arm, and my first reaction was they didn't look like dog injuries. But the more I looked at it, and knowing that Chloe was a large dog, I could sort of see that it might be caused by a dog. So, yeah, it's an interesting. I'm not a dog expert either, I could go either way. Yeah, if you were going to intentionally hit someone with a car, wouldn't you hit them head on and not like back up? Yeah for sure. But if you're really drunk and you're just acting in the heat of the moment, maybe I could see, you know, just putting it in reverse and hitting the accelerator.

1:02:06 Maybe. But yes, if you were planning on it and you were, you know, trying to intentionally do that, yeah, you wouldn't do it in reverse going twenty five miles an hour. Yeah, does this case feel like a Martin Scorsese film. To you, it feels a little more like a Dennis Lahane novel. But maybe a Martin Scorsese film based on a Denis Lahane novel. Yeah. What is the motive for killing John? Whether from Karen or the men? I mean, boy, I mean it's a good question. I think if Karen did it, I don't think there was a motive. I think it was they were arguing, not an accident, but arguing heat of the moment, maybe an accident or maybe just you know, a sudden like burst of anger or something that caused her to do that.

1:02:52 If it was the Alberts, then I really don't know. I mean that we talked about a few little conflicts about out, you know, the bottles on the lawn and things like that, and maybe it was Brian Higgins who had the little fling with with Karen, right, So I mean I suppose there could be something there, but none of those seem like they're a big enough issue to cause someone to you know, kill someone in that way. Just doesn't read. Something about John seeing camera bring camera footage Higgins kissing Karen. Yeah, but we have the text messages from the morning of his death, and he didn't say anything about it, so I don't think he cared that much.

1:03:38 Yeah. How much do you think Karen's defense cost? Oh? I don't know. Half a million. I think it was at least a million. Really, it was over a million. Yeah, but I mean, I'm not sure how deals work in Hollywood, but I think she does stand to make some money off. Yeah, story true. If this whole thing was not a conspiracy and the Albert family and the mccabs have been put through all of this, I just wanted to say that I think they've suffered and they've been treated really badly, and I do have empathy for them in their situation. Yeah. Absolutely, So what's your theory? Okay, So my theory? This is really tough. So let me just first say I think it's possible for more than one thing to be true. I think it's possible that the cops in this case were corrupt and or incompetent or did shoddy work.

1:04:34 I don't think that is controversial at all. Okay, but I think it's possible that that is true, and also that Karen Reid killed John O'Keefe somehow. And I think if I had to so. Let me also say secondly, if I was on the jury, I don't think I could have convicted Karen Reid. Oh absolutely not. But in my heart of hearts, I think that she probably did kill him, maybe accidentally, maybe in a fit of anger. I think that all of the you know, I think that the testimony of people saying that she said I hit him or did I hit him, indicate that she felt some guilt around that. The one piece of evidence that to me was pretty compelling that we talked about in the first case. I think you mentioned that there the first episode was that there were microscopic pieces from the tail light found embedded like in his sweatshirt.

1:05:29 And to me, that couldn't be unless he was hit by her car. And I don't think you could plant that type of evidence. I think it would be really hard to plant microscopic pieces of a tail light into someone's sweatshirt. So that was the one piece that I think was really compelling. But I think everything else, you know, if I consider it, I think she probably did it, But I don't think I could have convicted her. Interesting, what about you, Oh, my opinion doesn't matter. I agree, Actually, I agree with you pretty much, one hundred percent. I think that they probably were having an argument. I think their relationship it was very volatile, was volatile. They'd gotten along that night, but I think something might have happened at the bar. You know, like you're at an event, you're at a friend's house or something, and then you leave and then you kind of have a discussion and it kind of can go south, like I can't believe you did that, or you made me mad. So it was probably something like that. I do think that John could have thrown the cocktail glass at the car and broken the tailight as he exited the vehicle.

1:06:43 And then maybe that pissed her off and she slammed it into reverse and hit him. Right, I don't know. I don't see her doing it intentionally. I think that she likely hit him by a mistake. Yeah. She was pretty drunk though, so even if it was intentional, it might have been. But under the influence of a lot of. Alcohol, right, I mean, she was pretty intoxicated and so was he, right, So it was just like these two people. No one should have been driving. And I haven't really heard a lot of people talking about this, but I was. She was very drunk and she should not have been driving. He shouldn't have been driving either. He took an uber there, so he knew that he was going to be having a good time. But I think drunk driving is a really serious offense, and it's something that I take very seriously, and I know you do it too, right, And so that kind of bothers me that no one's talking about this.

1:07:33 I have compassion for her, and I don't think she should have been convicted, but she was driving and she was very drunk, and that is a crime. Yeah. I think on the other side of it too, when I think about the conspiracy theory or the other theory that you know, he was beat up by these guys. The thing that I struggle with there is that the number of people that would have to be involved in that conspiracy theory and covering it up, all the people who were at the house, that the paramedics who said that she said I hit him or did I hit him? All the police officers who would have to be involved in that. It just seems it seems hard to imagine that many people being willing to lie under oath the.

1:08:15 Hundred percent, and for like the Alberts, to have their children lie on the witness stand under oath and to sign an affidavit saying that John hadn't been in the house that night. I can't see putting your children in that position either, So yeah, I agree, I don't think that John entered the home that evening. Yeah, I will say that I do totally understand all the people who are up in arms and angry about the corruption in the police force, because it is blatant and it is horrible. And I think it's pervasive. And I didn't go into great detail, but there has been a lot of problems in I mean all over, but Massachusetts has had a lot of problems with their police.

1:08:58 Yeah, I totally totally get that. As a woman, and knowing that many people listen to our podcast, is incredibly frustrating to see men, especially those in positions of power like the police, who are meant to protect and respect us, still using degrading and derogatory terms for women, dismissing it as locker room talk. This behavior is unacceptable, particularly from those who are supposed to lead by example. Proctor may be portrayed as an outlier, but his actions likely reflect a systemic issue of sexism. While I believe that Karen Read is likely guilty of accidentally killing John O'Keefe because of her heavy drinking. I understand the overwhelming support she has received from women. Women need to stand together to fight for equal treatment under the law. We must a man better from those in power and continue to support each other as women. Well said, don't get a big head, because I try really hard to keep be humble.

1:10:01 You do. But I am very lucky to have a partner like you. Oh thank you. I think we already established in part one that I have a big head, as do you have both our children. Well I didn't meanically, but no, you were an amazing man and a great partner, and you are a champion not just for me, but for women everywhere. Oh thank you. Are you going to tell me that I'm a champion for all men. I think most men are like champion for themselves. Funy, yeah, I don't think. I don't think us men need anymore champions. I think we're doing all right. Well, that was a lot, and if you've made it through all three episodes, thank you so much for sticking with us. I hope that that was cohesive and made sense.

1:10:45 This was kind of a tricky case to put together. Yeah, a ton of information and very current too very current, which is tricky. And the fact that there are there are so many people out there. We talked about it earlier, but there are so many people out there who are so obsessed with this case that have done super deep dives and we're not able to do that. Thank you for making that point. Actually, I didn't want to kind of talk about that, like people have devoted. I mean, I've probably spent I don't know, eighty hours on this case. I don't know, but a lot of time. I've worked on it for about three weeks and it's been a lot of work. But you know, you just can't get to everything, and you want to so bad, but we do our best. But you and I both tend to be kind of middle of the road people, where some people are like, I'm one hundred percent sure she's innocent, and we both kind of tend not to be. Yeah, okay, say that, but not always like Barry more Few wherever you are, God, I know that you are guilty as sin. Yeah, you know, in general, we try to reserve our judgment.

1:11:45 Yeah, for the most part, I'm not sure about anything in life. So it's really hard for me to be that certain about something, especially when I know that, you know, there are a bunch of jurors that sat through what thirty some days of trial listening to all this stuff, and. You know how crazy thing about being a juror too is usually you're allowed to take notes, but you're not. I mean, yeah, I think it was thirty five days, but you're not allowed to. You can't see all the exhibits, you can't see all the pictures. You can only see certain things, and a lot of times you have to go to the judge and ask to see things again, right, So to have to keep it all in your head, Yeah, it's really challenging to be a juror, especially in a case like this.

1:12:26 Yeah. Absolutely, Before we go, I wanted to give a shout out to Patrick. We talked about him earlier in the episode, and if you would listen, it was a few episodes ago I mentioned that Patrick was my snack consultant. It's kind of joking because he and I had been messaging each other and he had said, you know, if you want, I could do like a cooking thing where I could videotape making the recipe or the snack or whatever, and so I was kind of joking about that. And after that episode aired, he messaged me and he said, did you not know that I'm a chef? And I was like, no, I didn't actually know that. I mean I worked with him and he was like, our. Chief technology is a man of all trades.

1:13:07 Yes, And I knew he had some retail businesses in ames Iowa, which is where he lives, and I knew they were they were related to like cooking and kitchen things like that, but I didn't know he was a chef. And he actually has a business called the Recipe Aims. So it's the recipe amees dot com And this is a business he has. They do like cooking classes and a lot of it is online and he does live streams. So if you're interested, check out the recipe aims dot com. Yeah, definitely, I want to check it out. Yeah, it's very cool. And again, a huge thank you to our Italian friends Sam and Tim for the amazing snacks. That was so fun.

1:13:51 I love it. Thank you so much. Well, thank you again everyone for sticking with us. We really appreciate everyone's support. Please rate, review, follow, hello, and subscribe. Find us on social media or send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com, and please consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash Lovemrykill one tier five dollars a month for early ad free access and a monthly bonus episode. Until next time, don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife.