Aug. 5, 2024

Karen Read and John O'Keefe - Part 3 of 3

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The Karen Read murder trial has captivated the country. Karen is accused of hitting her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O’Keefe, in anger after a night of drinking with friends with her Lexus SUV when she dropped him off at a friend’s house, just after midnight on January 29, 2022 as a blizzard slammed the town of Canton, Massachusetts. After the alleged incident, Karen left the scene of the crime. Her defense made the bold claim that the Massachusetts State Police and the Canton Police Department conspired to cover up John’s murder to protect two law enforcement agents, Brian Higgins and Brian Albert and Brian’s 17-year-old nephew Colin Albert. They argued that the trio beat John and left him in the snow to die by planting evidence and coaching witnesses.

Today's snacks: Fonzies and Amica Chips - Anello Pizza

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See part 1 show notes for list of sources and links.

WEBVTT

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Hi.

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I'm Tina and I'm Rich. And if there's one thing

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we've learned in over twenty years of marriage.

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It's that some days you'll feel like killing your wife, and.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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Welcome to love, Mary, Kill, Hey Rich, Hey Tina, how

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are you? I'm pretty good. My mouth is on fire,

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but other than that, I'm good.

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Where's your both on fire?

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I ate some really spicy potato chips just a minute ago,

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Jimmy John's firecrackers.

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That's not our snack for the episode. No, no, you

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just ran out to get Jimmy John's for dinner because

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A it's your favorite, and B we are We've recorded

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two episodes, three episodes over the last two days. We

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are both a little fried, and we might get a

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little slap happy or something maybe might be interesting.

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I'll have to see.

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Well, I have good news for you. Our lovely friends

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in Italy sent us this chest of.

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Snacks, sent us so many snacks.

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They sent us so many really good snacks. So there's

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two left in here. So do you want do you

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want to reach into this bag here?

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Reach into your your bag of snacks.

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Your boxes like yummy? Okay, these are phonzies, Fonzies phonzies. Well,

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you know, I don't speak Italian, so't I couldn't really

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tell you what they are. It looks like some sort

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of chip. Okay, it's so funny that I'm looking at

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it like I'm trying to read it. I'm like, I uh,

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and then oh, these are another chippy snack there. I've

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never seen anything like this in the States. It's like

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a circular.

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It's like an onion ring, but it's some kind of

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pizza flavored thing.

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It looks like so pizza in Italy is pizza.

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Hmmm? Interesting apparently.

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All right, well let's try them and we'll be right back. Okay,

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what did you think?

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I liked them both? They were They were really good. Really,

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the pizza anello pizza. It looks like an onion ring,

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but it's sort of like a it.

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Looks like a spaghettio.

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It looks like a spaghettio. It's a circle.

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Big.

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I think if you were like a little like a baby,

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might like them because it's like a you know, melt

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in your mouth. But Samantha, you did a great job

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picking out the snacks. It was so fun We loved it. Yeah,

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and the other snackies. The fonzis it's like a white Cheeto,

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and it's like the other Cheetos. The Cheeto Cheetos weren't

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the consistency of a Cheeto, but the Fonzies are the

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consistency of the Cheeto. It's like, oh, white cheddar Cheeto delicious.

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I would give the Fonzies a ten, because you know

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I love a cheese flavored snack. And I would give

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the spaghettio things probably an eight and a half.

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Okay, I'm gonna give the Fonzies a set. I didn't

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like them quite as much as the other things. The

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Anello pizza, though, I really liked a lot. I'm going

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to give that a nine.

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Interesting. And I was gonna lie to you, but.

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There is another kinder Joy put another kid.

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I knew it, but I know you want me to

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have it because you love me and I'm adorable.

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It is true that I do love you and you

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are adorable.

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So that I well, you're leave in the country. You're

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going to freaking Paris. I know.

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I hope the kinder Joy doesn't disappear tomorrow when I leave.

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Well, I'm pretty sure you can get one at the airport.

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They'll be fine. I don't feel bad for you. You're

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going to the Olympics. You're going to perish, You're gonna

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be okay, you're gonna get snaps. They're going to feed you.

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Fine, take the take care.

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Whenever he travels, he sends me pictures of these, you know,

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Michelin Star type restaurants and dinners, and I'm like at

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home eating a crust of bread.

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So if you're gonna guilt me over it, then have

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the kinder joy. It's all yours.

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Thank you so much again to our friends Sam and

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Tam that way, thank you of just a wonderful surprise.

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We have the best listeners, but you guys went above

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and beyond. Thank you so much. Gratzi.

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Wow, I didn't know you spoke Italian.

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I don't.

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Well, should we finish off this Karen Reid case?

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We really should?

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Yes, I'm ready.

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We started well. When I started writing it, I was like,

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it's going to be one part, kind of long. It'll

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be one Nope, nope, No, there's.

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A lot to talk about here, and I have a

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feeling this might be a long episode.

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It might so hang in there with us. We'll try

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to get through it and make it as interesting and

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entertaining as possible. Could you maybe summarize parts one and

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two quickly? I'm not sure people need a ton of summary,

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but I didn't write anything, so we put you on

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the spot, and we haven't done this in a while.

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Yeah, I think, very brief summary. So John O'Keefe who

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was a police officer.

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Police officer forty six years old.

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And he was found dead. There was a blizzard, a snowstorm.

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This was in what year twenty two exactly in January,

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and he and his girlfriend Karen Reid, had gone out

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with a bunch of other people to a bar. They

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drank a lot. They went to someone else's house. The

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Albert's name.

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Brian and Nicole.

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Rian Nicole Alban.

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Lived just five minutes away from the bar.

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And they went to their house. Karen dropped John off.

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He was going to go to the after party and

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then she was going to go back to John's house.

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He's been a little inconsistent, right.

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She's told a few different stories, but the bottom line

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is he ended up dead in the snow in front

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of the house and his body was discovered the next

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morning very early by Karen and Jennifer McCabe, who is

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Karen's friend or I can't remember the relationship and her friend,

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but Jennifer McCabe.

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Her sister is Nicole Albert, who is married to Brian.

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Brian and Nicole own the house that John was found at.

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Okay, right, So when Karen hadn't heard from John, she

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called him like overnight. Yeah, never got a hold of him,

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so she and Jennifer went looking for him, and they

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found his body in the snow.

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And there's two theories. One theory is that Karen, in

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her drunken state John, she and John had been fighting,

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that she might have hit him angrily after the fight

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when he got out of the car. And the other

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theory is that Brian Albert, another man named Brian Higgins,

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and Brian Albert's nephew Colin Albert, might have beaten John

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and put him out in the snow to die.

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Right, But all the people at the after party said

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that he didn't come into the house.

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I never saw and we're not sure.

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And Karen was arrested like two days after the murder

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for I think it was initially involuntary manslaughter and then

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later they upped it to second degree murder. And yeah,

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and today we're going to talk about her trial, which

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just ended recently.

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Yes, as I was researching the case, something that I

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kept wondering over and over is where was his body found? Yeah,

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because I thought, well, Karen dropped him off. She must

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have dropped him off by the driveway, and his body

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would be, you know, somewhere between the driveway and the

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front door, and people were going in and out of

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the house, and how did no one find this poor man?

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But if you look at the pictures, there's a flagpole

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that's kind of you know, on the edge of their property,

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towards the.

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Road, on the far end, away from the driveway.

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Yeah. And I had said a couple of episodes ago

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that it was a couple of one hundred feet away,

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But you actually found it on Google Earth.

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Google Maps, Yeah, you can do. You can measure distance

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on Google Maps. And so like, the distance from the

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front door or the front of the garage to the

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flagpole is probably about one hundred and twenty feet or

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something like that, so fairly far. And if you were

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walking out of the driveway or backing out of the driveway,

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you probably wouldn't see something that was if his body

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was way over by the flagpole. I can see how

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you wouldn't notice it.

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Yeah, it wasn't the street wasn't lit, and it was

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dark out and it was snowy at times. The snow

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and the wind were very strong and heavy, so it

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was probably very hard to see, but.

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Not for Karen Reid, who apparently saw his body right

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away when they pulled up in the morning when it

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was still dark out.

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Yes. True. So the trial was set to begin on

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March twelfth, twenty twenty four. Judge Beverly Conone, with fifteen

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years of experience on the bench, presided over the high

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profile case. Judge Conone had previously denied the defense's request

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to delay the trial, but in February she granted a

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one month delay due to the amount of discovery, like

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just trying to write a podcast. There's so much information,

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so I can't imagine, yeah, you know, either of the

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attorneys trying to wade through this information. And I think

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the DA was mostly on his own, and that's just

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insurmountable amount of work. The prosecution's request for a gag

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order to protect witnesses from being harassed was struck down

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by the judge in the case, which is kind of

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surprising knowing everything about Turtle Boy and how he was

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kind of harassing posesses. In November twenty twenty three, Karen

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Reid won an appeal from the Massachusetts Supreme Court to

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gain access to the cell phone records of Jen McCabe,

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and that really did change the trajectory of the defense.

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It took five days to see the seventeen person jury.

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There were twelve jurors and five alternates, ten of those

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people being women, and they were selected from more than

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five hundred potential jurors. So you can imagine if you're

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from the area and you ask them have you heard

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about this case, that everyone's like, yep, right. So the

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trial happened around the same time as Donald Trump's trial

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in New York, and it actually took more time to

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see the jury and oh, Karen Reid's case, which I

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thought was kind of interesting. The trial actually began on

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April twenty first, twenty twenty four. The burden of proof

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was on the state and they knew it would be

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a time tough case to prosecute with a largely circumstantial case.

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To get a verdict of second degree murdered, they had

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to prove there was intent and malice of forethought to

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kill John O'Keeffe. Karen's defense wanted Judge Conone to recuse

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herself from the case, claiming that she was related to

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the mccabes. Another person related, Yeah, which is why some

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people refer to her as Auntie Bev. I believed Turtle

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Boy found that connection and was something about one of

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Jennifer McCabe's relatives and a cottage. I don't really have

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any more information than that, Okay, the judge said, quote,

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I know very well the importance of a fair and

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impartial judge, and I know full well how to follow

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my oath and comply with my ethical obligations. So she

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refused to recuse herself. Protesters, largely organized and encouraged by

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Turtle Boy, lying the streets surrounding the courthouse and support

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of Karen Reid, wearing pink or free Karen t shirts

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in a carnival like atmosphere forgot.

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We're we're here today and we're not gonna be quiet.

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It does sound pretty carnival like.

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Some of the witnesses were booed, and I think John

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O'Keefe's family was booed.

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Oh that's not cool, Judge.

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Conone band wearing pink in the courtroom, en ruled that

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supporters must maintain a two hundred feet buffer zone from

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the courthouse. Karen Reid supporters filed a lawsuit stating that

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their First Amendment rights were being violated. The case went

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to the state Supreme Court, where they upheld Judge Conone's

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ruling to maintain a buffer zone to protect witness and

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family members. That's kind of nuts, isn't it? Like these

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supporters really support Karen Reid. Yeah, And it wasn't a

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few people, it was hundreds. A smaller number of protesters

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showed support for John O'Keefe, wearing buttons that said justice

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for JJ and holding signs that said justice for Officer

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O'Keefe while yelling cop killer at Karen Reid. From the beginning,

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Karen has had strong public support. Crowdfunding has raised almost

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four hundred thousand dollars towards her legal defense. About a

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dozen of Karen's family members showed up in court to

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support her. Why do you think Karen has so much

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public support?

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I don't know. It's a good question. I mean, I

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think people love a good story that has scandal and corruption,

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and they like to fight against that. But I guess

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I'm not sure really why this specific case has captured

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so much attention.

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It is surprising too, because a police officer died, and

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normally when a police officer dies.

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Public rally around the police officers.

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Yeah.

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Well, Karen supporters have said that they see her in themselves,

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a woman against an entire bureaucracy. They want to help

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her get through it and beat the system. The Boston

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Police Department in Massachusetts, State police have had numerous scandals

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in recent history, and many residents are afraid that police

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are just corrupt and not above framing a citizen. The

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scandals in the Boston Police Department include falsifying time records

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to be paid overtime. Patrick Rose, a former police officer,

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was charged with multiple counts of child sexual abuse. It

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was later revealed that the department had allowed him to

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continue working despite earlier accusations. Reports of widespread corruption, including bribery,

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drug trafficking, and other forms of misconduct, have plagued the

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department over the years. The Boston Police Department has faced

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criticism for its handling of racism and discrimination within the fours,

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as well as accusations of racial profiling. And excits of

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use of force against minority communities. The state police have

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00:14:04.399 --> 00:14:09.000
been plagued with similar scandals. The Massachusetts governor has even

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weighed in on the case. Governor Mara Heally strongly criticized

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state Trooper Michael Proctor for his conduct in the Karen

270
00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:20.720
Reid case, calling it terrible and completely unprofessional. She said

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as behavior undermined the dignity and integrity of law enforcement.

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She expressed disgust at Practic's vulgar and inappropriate text messages

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about Karen Reid, but refrained from further comments on the

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trial since it is ongoing.

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Yeah, I think it wasn't going. Yeah. I think that

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his comments, which we talked about on the last episode,

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were so disgusting and so unprofessional that I can I

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could see how that would be a big reason why

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people would be supporting Karen Reid in this case, just

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hearing his comments.

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I think that's a I think that's part of it too.

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There was an issue with a courtroom early on. The

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defense claimed that the sightlines of the jurors to see

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the witnesses were obstructed. So this courtroom is one hundred

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year years old and they've never had an issue but

286
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Alan Jackson comes into town and he's like, this isn't okay,

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00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:09.399
and he's he's right, I mean the juror should be

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red when so they had to change courtrooms, and the

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courtroom that they moved to was very small. It only

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held about sixty people and only ten media were allowed

291
00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:23.279
into the courtroom each day and only a handful of

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00:15:23.320 --> 00:15:26.200
observers at a time other than the family members.

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Was it televised live? I know it was. It was recorded. Okay,

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that's good.

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00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:33.480
On day four of the trial, the jury took a

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field trip to the Albert's house. Karen Reid was represented

297
00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:42.360
by Alan Jackson and David Yannetti. Mister Jackson, a former prosecutor,

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is a well known attorney based in Los Angeles who

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has represented high profile clients such as Kevin Spacey, Nissan,

300
00:15:49.559 --> 00:15:53.399
Joaquin Garcia, the leader of the Mexico based megachurch La

301
00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:57.480
Luz del Mundo, who faced sex crime charges, a Saudi

302
00:15:57.559 --> 00:16:00.639
prince accused of rape, and several athletes. It's charged with

303
00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:05.799
domestic of violence. So he's kind of represented some shady people,

304
00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:08.559
not saying that Karen read is shady.

305
00:16:09.279 --> 00:16:11.320
Yeah, that's what defense attorneys do, though.

306
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He was the prosecutor in the Phil Spector case way

307
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back when. Okay, do you remember that case?

308
00:16:16.519 --> 00:16:16.600
Oh?

309
00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:17.080
Of course.

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All the witnesses in the first five days of the

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trial were first responders, fourteen in total. The judge allowed

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a third party culprit defense, meaning the defenses allowed to

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introduce another possible suspect, specifically, in this case, someone else

314
00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:36.240
at the Albert House, Brian Albert, Colin Albert, and Brian Higgins,

315
00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:37.720
who we've talked about several times.

316
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The prosecution called over sixty witnesses during the eight week trial,

317
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presenting two hundred exhibits and six hundred pieces of evidence.

318
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That's a lot of evidence.

319
00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:47.960
It is a lot.

320
00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:50.919
I need to tell you guys about a spreadsheet that

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I found on Reddit, this amazing user called Sleuthy Goosey.

322
00:16:55.279 --> 00:16:57.399
I think she might have a YouTube channel too, but

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00:16:57.519 --> 00:17:02.039
she has broken down the case by the timeline, the evidence,

324
00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:06.440
the exhibits, the pictures. I think I saw almost all

325
00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:10.519
of the six hundred pictures, and we will put that

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00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:13.039
link in our show notes. It's one of the top

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00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:17.680
five sources. Okay, but check that out because it's it

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00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:18.400
is amazing.

329
00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:19.960
I took a look at it earlier and it is

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really amazing. It's just a big spreadsheet, but it's got

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links to everything you could ever want to know about it.

332
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It's amazing.

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The prosecution was criticized for the slow pace of their

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case and the number of superfluous witnesses. The judge and

335
00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:37.359
jurors were visibly frustrated. Legal experts were confused by the

336
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order of witnesses and did not think that they were

337
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winning over the jury or proving their case beyond a

338
00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:46.640
reasonable doubt. Three of the five EMT's testified that they

339
00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:50.440
heard Karen Reid say I hit him. Several people said

340
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that Karen confessed.

341
00:17:52.880 --> 00:17:54.880
After the fire department arrived and they sort of takeover

342
00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:57.640
resacitative efforts with regard to misterial keif what if any

343
00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:00.799
observations did you make of misread and she was doing or.

344
00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:07.160
Saying about mistery was visibly upset. She kept saying, this

345
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is all my fault, this is my fault.

346
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I did this.

347
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As I was ventilating, I was able to ask did.

348
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Anybody see anything?

349
00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:17.119
Did anybody what happened?

350
00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:20.319
And there was one individual that replied, several times, I

351
00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:21.359
hit him, I hit him.

352
00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:24.240
He indicated that the defendant said but I did him.

353
00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:24.839
Is that correct?

354
00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:27.920
Yes, that's something that she said once or more.

355
00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:29.200
Than three times.

356
00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:29.960
I hit him.

357
00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:31.519
I hit him. I hit him.

358
00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:33.599
Earlier it was could I did I.

359
00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:36.759
When she spoke to the paramedic, it was Crystal Claire,

360
00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:40.359
I hit him. That last witness was Jennifer McCabe, who

361
00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:42.119
we will hear more from in a little bit.

362
00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:46.200
Brian Albert testified that he traded in his cell phone

363
00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:48.279
for a new one the day before a court order

364
00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:51.119
was issued to preserve it. He said that he needed

365
00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:54.079
an upgrade. He claimed that he did not know all

366
00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:57.039
of the data on that phone would be factory reset

367
00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:01.279
and destroyed. Julie Nagel, a friend of Brian Albert Junior,

368
00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:04.559
testified that she saw what she called a black blob

369
00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:08.079
five or six feet in length near the flagpole when

370
00:19:08.119 --> 00:19:11.240
she left the party around one forty five am, but

371
00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:14.839
admitted she was intoxicated and wasn't sure what she saw.

372
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She said the blob was quote close to the street,

373
00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:20.680
but in their lawn, kind of in front of the

374
00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:24.200
flagpole unquote. This was the first time she had told

375
00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:26.839
anyone about what she saw. On the night of January

376
00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:30.200
twenty ninth, she testified that she did not believe the

377
00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:32.359
blob to be a body at the time. If she

378
00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:34.599
had known, she would have called nine one one, She.

379
00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:37.720
Said, this points again to the shoddy police work that

380
00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:39.960
was done. She's on the witness stand and this is

381
00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:42.240
the first time she's recounting this story.

382
00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:44.640
So did she she never talked to the police or

383
00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:46.119
she never told them that she must.

384
00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.960
Have talked to the police in some capacity. I'm not positive,

385
00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:51.200
but this is the first time that she said that

386
00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:52.039
she saw the blob.

387
00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:52.359
Wow.

388
00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:57.119
Firefighter Katie McLoughlin was accused of perjury by the defense.

389
00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:00.359
Katie was one of the first responders at the crime scene.

390
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:03.680
She testified at the trial that she and Caitlyn Albert

391
00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:07.400
were acquaintances but not really friends, although they'd grown up

392
00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:11.599
together and had mutual friends. Several group photos of Katie

393
00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:15.079
and Caitlin were found on Facebook, and the defense questioned

394
00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:19.119
Katie's ability to remain neutral in her testimony. This case

395
00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:23.119
is so complicated because so many parties involved were related

396
00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:26.720
or born and raised in the Canton, Massachusetts area, and

397
00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:28.960
many have a background in law enforcement.

398
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:32.759
Caitlyn Albert is the daughter of Brian and Nicole, the

399
00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:36.480
homeowners of thirty four Fairview.

400
00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:40.680
Road, Okay. Matthew McCabe, husband of Jen, testified to seeing

401
00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:43.640
a black suv approached the Albert's house on the night

402
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:47.400
in question, but never saw anyone get out. He assumed

403
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:50.480
it was Karen and John. He saw the suv move

404
00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:52.920
up the road a bit near the flagpole and then

405
00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:55.759
later noticed it was gone, but saw tire tracks in

406
00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:59.880
the snow. Two detectives admitted they initially didn't see fragm

407
00:21:00.240 --> 00:21:03.039
of a broken tail light at the scene. In total,

408
00:21:03.200 --> 00:21:06.200
forty five pieces of tail light were collected on four

409
00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:11.200
separate occasions. A crash reconstructionist testified that they believed that

410
00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:14.480
John's injuries were consistent with being hit by an suv

411
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:18.119
going twenty four miles per hour and correct me if

412
00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:19.839
I'm wrong, but I believe. In Part one, we talked

413
00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:23.119
about the fact that her Lexus data showed that she

414
00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:27.559
had gone backwards at twenty five miles per hour right

415
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:28.880
for a she.

416
00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:32.480
I believe went in reverse for sixty feet at twenty

417
00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:34.160
four point two miles per hour.

418
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:38.119
Okay. The medical examiner testified that John's injuries could have

419
00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:41.039
been caused by a large dog, could have been that

420
00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:43.720
surprises me a little bit that the medical examiner would.

421
00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:46.400
Say that it wasn't in the autopsy, but during their

422
00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:48.799
cross examination that they did say that yeah.

423
00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:52.319
Ryan Higgins testified that he got rid of his cell

424
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:55.440
phone after he learned that his number was public when

425
00:21:55.480 --> 00:21:58.440
a target in an investigation he was working on called him.

426
00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:02.799
This happened in July twenty two, but Brian didn't purchase

427
00:22:02.839 --> 00:22:06.039
a new phone until September twenty twenty two, the day

428
00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:09.119
before he received the order to hand over his phone

429
00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:12.319
to law enforcement. He claimed his phone was old and

430
00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:15.079
beaten up and he needed a new one. He claimed

431
00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:17.400
that he was driving near a military base in Cape

432
00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:20.960
Cod and through the cell phone and corresponding simcard he

433
00:22:21.079 --> 00:22:24.960
destroyed into a dumpster, as one does. Of course, he

434
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:27.519
didn't transfer data from the old phone to the new phone,

435
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:31.720
including personal pictures. On the witness stand, Brian read the

436
00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:35.680
flirtatious text messages between Karen and him. If you recall,

437
00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:37.440
I think it was in part one we talked about

438
00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:40.279
the fact that Karen and Brian had a little flirtation

439
00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:43.559
and shared a kiss right two weeks.

440
00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:46.920
Before John's death, Brian had come over to John's house

441
00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:48.799
to watch a football game. I think the date was

442
00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:52.079
January fifteenth, and I think the start the text messages

443
00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:54.519
that were going to re take place over like a

444
00:22:54.599 --> 00:22:57.920
ten day period, and they start, I believe, the night

445
00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:01.160
of the football game. So Karen's tech him while he's

446
00:23:01.160 --> 00:23:02.799
sitting there watching the game with John.

447
00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:07.039
Okay, you're hot? Are you serious or messing with me?

448
00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:07.400
No?

449
00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:08.200
I'm serious?

450
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:10.559
Feeling is mutual? Is that bad?

451
00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:13.240
Are you okay? Driving? You don't want to stay here?

452
00:23:13.720 --> 00:23:15.519
I wish I think you're messing with me.

453
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:16.759
Why do you think that?

454
00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:19.759
Because this is so out of left field? Where do

455
00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:20.880
these feelings come from?

456
00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:22.599
I just think you're like me?

457
00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:23.720
Meaning?

458
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:25.599
Do you have your own kids?

459
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:29.279
I have no kids? How am I like you? Hello?

460
00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:30.920
Aren't we alike?

461
00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:32.119
I think?

462
00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:32.240
So?

463
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:33.599
Shoot straight with me?

464
00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:36.440
I told you. I just think we're like right?

465
00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:38.000
Yes? Agree?

466
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:38.759
Now? What?

467
00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:39.880
I don't know?

468
00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:42.240
Shouldn't you know?

469
00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:43.599
Do you like me?

470
00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:45.680
Yes? From Jump?

471
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:47.319
When was jump?

472
00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:50.599
First time I saw you? When were you interested?

473
00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:52.680
I don't know? You're just my type?

474
00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:55.440
You think you can handle me. I thought you were happy.

475
00:23:56.119 --> 00:23:57.440
How do you know if I'm happy?

476
00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:02.880
I've always thought that about you? What that you're hot? Smart, witty?

477
00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:07.119
But didn't think you were interested witty yes, meaning quick

478
00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:09.640
with a response. Tell me why you got my number

479
00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:10.480
and reached out to me.

480
00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:13.839
Just thought we were the same from the same neighborhood.

481
00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:16.720
I'm glad I stopped by. I should have come earlier.

482
00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:18.400
Do you really live in Mansfield?

483
00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:19.359
Yeah?

484
00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:22.920
I was basically begging you to You don't have to.

485
00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:27.200
Bed me beg huh. I will give you whatever you want.

486
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:28.960
How are you texting right now?

487
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:29.519
Uugh?

488
00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:33.680
Leave me hanging. No, all's in your court.

489
00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:34.640
What do you want?

490
00:24:35.319 --> 00:24:37.079
Loaded question? What do you want?

491
00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:37.759
I asked you.

492
00:24:38.519 --> 00:24:42.559
Nope, you initiated this. Are you breaking up or staying together?

493
00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:46.000
I don't know. He hooked up with another girl on vacation.

494
00:24:46.359 --> 00:24:48.960
I am very close to his niece. It's a very

495
00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:49.920
fucked up situation.

496
00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:52.799
When was that and how did you find out they

497
00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:55.319
hooked up? I don't want to complicate your situation.

498
00:24:55.960 --> 00:24:57.920
We went away for New Year's the four of us.

499
00:24:58.000 --> 00:24:59.759
I put the kids to bed and found him in

500
00:24:59.799 --> 00:25:03.920
the lobbyer roa hotel, all over one of our friends. Whatever,

501
00:25:04.039 --> 00:25:06.440
it doesn't matter, Okay, just to break in for a second.

502
00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:11.079
Remember like nothing probably happened, and Karen even apologized and

503
00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:13.160
ended up paying for the woman's hotel room.

504
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:13.960
Yeah, he was hugging.

505
00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:18.039
He was hugging a friend and her boyfriend was with him.

506
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:20.559
So it does matter. Did they bang?

507
00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:22.039
Does that matter?

508
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:25.200
Sorry? I was just asking. I was just trying to

509
00:25:25.240 --> 00:25:26.000
figure shit out.

510
00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:27.440
It doesn't really matter.

511
00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:29.119
Okay, I won't ask again.

512
00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:30.920
I don't care. It doesn't matter.

513
00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:33.440
Okay. Hear you loud and clear, Karen.

514
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:35.240
We did kiss earlier.

515
00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:37.440
No, I think you initiated that.

516
00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:40.799
No, yep, do I owe you an apology?

517
00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:43.680
Oh my god? No, Why are you being sensitive?

518
00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:45.480
What do you want from me?

519
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:46.880
What's on the table?

520
00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:47.759
What do you want?

521
00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:49.559
Ideally the real deal?

522
00:25:50.519 --> 00:25:52.039
I'm not abnormally sensitive.

523
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:54.039
Ah, I won't be so hard on you.

524
00:25:55.039 --> 00:25:57.279
Oh my god, you're not. You called me trouble. That

525
00:25:57.440 --> 00:25:58.440
makes me sound bad.

526
00:25:58.880 --> 00:25:59.880
I was just playing with you.

527
00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:04.039
Yeah you weren't. But that's okay. Like I said earlier,

528
00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:08.119
these texts happened like over seven to ten days. They

529
00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:13.359
seemed to end about January twenty third, and Karen ghosted.

530
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:14.960
Brian all Right said yeah.

531
00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:20.359
On January twenty ninth, she texted Brian only John died.

532
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:24.440
Brian said the whole experience was confusing for him. One

533
00:26:24.519 --> 00:26:26.880
night Karen showed up at his place, and he claims

534
00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:30.200
nothing happened, she didn't stay long, and the whole incident

535
00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:32.799
had a very weird vibe, is what he said. So

536
00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:35.279
he had to read a lot of these text messages

537
00:26:35.960 --> 00:26:37.680
at trial, and I just think that must have been

538
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:41.559
a little uncomfortable, super awkward for everyone involved. We'll be

539
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:51.680
right back after a break. Massachusetts State Trooper Michael Procter

540
00:26:51.799 --> 00:26:54.640
spent two days on the witness stand. He was a

541
00:26:54.759 --> 00:26:57.920
gift to the defense. On day twenty three of the trial,

542
00:26:58.079 --> 00:27:01.759
Proctor was forced to read some of his controversial text

543
00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:03.279
message is allowed in court.

544
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:06.960
So these came from me. From all accounts, he didn't

545
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:15.039
do anything wrong. She's a whack job cuntess, so don't

546
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:16.039
spell it. You have to.

547
00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:19.640
So these are your words, Trooper Proctor, yarnal, go ahead

548
00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:20.119
and say them.

549
00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:25.559
Yes, she's a babe. We ha fall river accent, though,

550
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:32.200
though no ask. He also respond with she's got a

551
00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:38.559
leaky not leak's pooh, And what if anything is that

552
00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:44.319
in reference to misread some medical conditions? There if you

553
00:27:44.480 --> 00:27:49.240
like women who ship themselves the answer, what is it

554
00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:50.119
that you're referring to?

555
00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:50.440
There?

556
00:27:51.799 --> 00:27:55.440
Again, a regrettable comment that made about miss Read's medical condition.

557
00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:58.880
I respond said, the altbuts beat the ship out of O'Keefe,

558
00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:00.960
left him for dead, and that's why our tale I

559
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:06.440
was cracked. She's gross tributa Chico. Oh fuck her, bitch,

560
00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:12.880
and we I conducted multiple interviews. Speak Up conducted multiple

561
00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:15.880
interviews when these came from me. Finally, I'm going through

562
00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:19.319
is retarded client's phone? No nude so far? I hate

563
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:20.440
that man, I truly hate him.

564
00:28:21.319 --> 00:28:24.599
What did you write after you talked about going through

565
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:27.440
the quote retarded client's phone?

566
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:29.559
Jaction allow it?

567
00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:37.039
Uh, no nudes so far, No nudes so far?

568
00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:37.880
Correct?

569
00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:38.599
Correct?

570
00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:40.400
And you send that to your bosses?

571
00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:47.880
Yes, sir, you regrettable comments in there. He's vile, disgusting.

572
00:28:48.279 --> 00:28:50.759
I'm glad that judge made him read them out loud

573
00:28:50.839 --> 00:28:52.599
and own up to his words. He should have to

574
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:57.960
have comments tattooed to a forehead or something. He acknowledged

575
00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:00.720
the unprofessional nature of his text, but was adamant that

576
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:04.039
his conduct did not impede the investigation. He said on

577
00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:08.240
the witness stand quote, unprofessional and regrettable comments are something

578
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:10.960
I am not proud and I shouldn't have wrote in

579
00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:14.640
private or any type of setting had zero impact on

580
00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:18.880
the facts and evidence and integrity of the investigation. Ryan

581
00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:22.559
Albert's brother, Chris, is married to Julie Albert. Remember, Chris

582
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:26.359
owns the pizza shop and he's the town selectman. Julie

583
00:29:26.440 --> 00:29:31.039
is close friends with Courtney Proctor. Trooper Proctor's sister, Julie

584
00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:34.200
was the daycare provider for Courtney's children, so those are

585
00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:37.920
pretty close ties. Courtney sent a text to her brother

586
00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:42.519
after she'd spoken to Julie early in the investigation that said, quote,

587
00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:45.240
when this is all over, she wants to get you

588
00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:49.960
a thank you gift. He replied, get Elizabeth one, referring

589
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:53.000
to his wife, who'd been solo parenting since he'd been

590
00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:56.759
leading the investigation. He said on the witness stand, I

591
00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:59.240
have never received a gift. I never asked for a

592
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:02.119
gift my wife. I've never received a gift. My wife

593
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:05.319
never asked for a gift. I think that he had

594
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:09.799
called Julie because she was actually going to maybe be

595
00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:11.759
the daycare provider for his children as well.

596
00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:15.920
Okay, just would want to avoid any appearance of impropriety

597
00:30:16.119 --> 00:30:18.559
in the position that he is in. I just don't

598
00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:18.920
get it.

599
00:30:19.559 --> 00:30:23.440
Courtney Proctor and Julie Albert talked sixty seven times between

600
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:27.160
February first, twenty twenty two and September twenty twenty two.

601
00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:30.839
Julie said she didn't remember what they talked about, but

602
00:30:31.319 --> 00:30:34.000
she talks a lot, and that was an unusual amount

603
00:30:34.119 --> 00:30:38.160
for her. This next part is very complicated and confusing,

604
00:30:38.359 --> 00:30:40.519
and you helped me flesh it out a little.

605
00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:42.359
Bit, yes, and I will do my best to try

606
00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:45.319
to elaborate, but it is very confusing and.

607
00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:49.000
It could be the whole case, in my opinion. Jennifer

608
00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:52.599
mccape spent three days testifying. Jennifer's sister, Nicole, is married

609
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:55.160
to Brian Albert. I'm sorry I keep repeating his relationships,

610
00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:56.839
but I think it's really confusing and I just want

611
00:30:56.880 --> 00:30:59.880
to help everyone. The after party was at Nicole and

612
00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:04.279
Bryan's house. Jennifer is also friends with Courtney Procter, officer

613
00:31:04.359 --> 00:31:08.559
Michael Procter's sister. She was a fiery witness. When she

614
00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:11.519
was interviewed by police, she recalled that Karen said, did

615
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:14.640
I hit him? When they found John lying in Brian's yard,

616
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:17.799
But during the trial, Jennifer testified that Karen said I

617
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:21.079
hit him that is the first time that people heard

618
00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:24.200
this version of events from her. It's a subtle difference.

619
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:26.119
But did I hit him or I hit him?

620
00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:26.599
Important?

621
00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:31.039
Jennifer was questioned about seven unanswered calls from her phone

622
00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:34.480
to John O'Keefe's phone on January twenty ninth, from twelve

623
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:38.559
twenty nine to twelve fifty The calls were later deleted

624
00:31:38.599 --> 00:31:41.160
from her call log. She claimed they were butt dials

625
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:44.519
and had no recollection of deleting the calls. A data

626
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:47.680
expert at the trial said there was no evidence of deletions.

627
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:51.000
A different expert said that the cookies were deleted, not

628
00:31:51.160 --> 00:31:54.799
the searches. So I don't think these calls that she

629
00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:57.960
said were butt dials. I don't think these really implicate her.

630
00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:02.640
No, because we noticed she called him looking for like,

631
00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:03.440
where are you at.

632
00:32:03.480 --> 00:32:06.519
Right right here? So I don't know why she wouldn't

633
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:08.200
just say, oh, yeah, I was just worried about him.

634
00:32:08.200 --> 00:32:09.640
We hadn't showed up any house yet.

635
00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:10.720
Yeah, that's very strange.

636
00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:14.680
Alan Jackson confronted Jen McKay with data from Celebrate, a

637
00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:20.400
company that forensically searches electronic devices. Jackson showed a log

638
00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:24.440
file entry that seemed to indicate that Jen searched has

639
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:28.799
hos longed to die in cold has presumably a typo

640
00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:33.480
for how at two twenty seven am. Jen said that

641
00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:35.680
she did not make the search at this time. She

642
00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:38.559
claimed that she made the search at six twenty four am,

643
00:32:39.079 --> 00:32:43.359
after she and Karen discovered John's body. Jen said Karen

644
00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:46.720
asked her to google hypothermia how long does it take

645
00:32:47.079 --> 00:32:50.000
to die in the cold? Because it was cold outside

646
00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:53.039
and her hands were shaking. She mistyped. There was another

647
00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:57.680
search at six twenty four am how long TI die

648
00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:04.079
in CIKD with different typos. Jen said she re entered

649
00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:07.559
the search because of the typos. And this is a

650
00:33:07.720 --> 00:33:11.359
critical part of the case because if Jen did search

651
00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:13.680
how long to die in the cold at two twenty

652
00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:18.440
seven am, that changes everything. And I think that's the

653
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:21.880
whole case if that search did happen, right, because she's

654
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:24.200
she gets home, she's laying in bed, She's like, oh

655
00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:26.640
my god, what happened? What did we do? How long

656
00:33:26.759 --> 00:33:28.480
is it going to take him to die?

657
00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:28.799
Right?

658
00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:32.519
The Jensics explanation was when they got home from the

659
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:35.079
party at two twenty seven am, she was thinking about

660
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:39.400
her daughter's new basketball team. Her daughter in high school,

661
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:42.400
and she was invited to join this new team, and

662
00:33:42.519 --> 00:33:46.480
she was googling about the basketball team, right and she

663
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:49.079
didn't search for anything else at two twenty seven.

664
00:33:48.920 --> 00:33:50.000
Am, according to her.

665
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:54.920
According to her, the prosecution's forensic experts say that the

666
00:33:55.119 --> 00:33:59.079
two twenty seven am timestamp for that search is inaccurate

667
00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:01.440
because it was from a log file that shows the

668
00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:04.559
last time the browser tab was viewed, not the actual

669
00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:08.360
time of the search itself. In other words, I'm sorry,

670
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:10.719
this is just really confuting. In other words, if she

671
00:34:11.000 --> 00:34:14.840
viewed the browser tab at two twenty seven am when

672
00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:17.920
making the basketball search, then pulled up the same browser

673
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:20.800
tab again at six twenty four am to make the

674
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:23.559
how long to die in cold search, the log file

675
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:26.320
would show the last time the tab was viewed, in

676
00:34:26.440 --> 00:34:30.440
this case, to twenty seven am. Here's a clip from

677
00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:34.840
the defense questioning of Jen McCabe's.

678
00:34:33.599 --> 00:34:36.119
Mackay, the reason you deleted that to twenty seven am

679
00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:39.880
call is because you realized that if you were caught

680
00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:42.519
googling how long it takes for a person.

681
00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:43.960
To die in the hole three.

682
00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:46.960
And a half hours before John's body is found, that

683
00:34:47.079 --> 00:34:52.719
would incriminate you would objection the objection sustained. Did you

684
00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:55.400
delete that search because you knew that you would be

685
00:34:55.519 --> 00:34:58.719
implicated in John O'Keefe's death if that.

686
00:34:58.840 --> 00:35:03.800
Search was found on your phone? Objection, could you answer

687
00:35:03.880 --> 00:35:04.280
that please?

688
00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:08.159
I did not delete that search. I never made that

689
00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:10.159
search at two twenty three.

690
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:13.119
I never would have left John O'Keefe out in the

691
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:14.800
cold to die because.

692
00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:16.079
He was my friend that I loved.

693
00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:17.800
But he's not Your family is.

694
00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:21.039
Family, and friends.

695
00:35:23.079 --> 00:35:23.519
Sustain.

696
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:27.239
So I know this stuff is super confusing, and I

697
00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:30.360
am not a computer expert by any means. You would think,

698
00:35:30.440 --> 00:35:34.199
like with computer data forensics, everything would be very clear

699
00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:34.880
and cut and dried.

700
00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:36.719
But we talked about this in the last episode, where

701
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:38.840
you would think everything is just very objective, like oh,

702
00:35:38.920 --> 00:35:41.199
you searched at this time and yeah, but it's.

703
00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:45.000
So complicated, and I think when when people, lawyers and

704
00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:47.599
experts try to present it to a jury, it can

705
00:35:47.639 --> 00:35:50.800
get very confusing. I reached out to my friend Patrick,

706
00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:52.760
So if you are a listener of our podcast, you

707
00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:56.639
may know Patrick as my snack consultant. But Patrick is

708
00:35:56.679 --> 00:35:58.920
also a technologist. He is a jack of all trades,

709
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:01.480
he really is. He's a great and he's been like

710
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:04.920
a chief Technology officer. He's actually worked in digital forensics,

711
00:36:05.559 --> 00:36:08.480
and so I sent him some of the logs and

712
00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:12.880
some of the evidence that came from Celebrate and he

713
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:15.800
explained it to me, and I think it it makes sense.

714
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:18.280
It's it's going to be hard for me to explain clearly,

715
00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:23.119
but essentially, the the log file that they that they

716
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:26.599
showed that said two twenty seven am she made this

717
00:36:26.679 --> 00:36:29.320
search for how long to die in the Cold is

718
00:36:29.480 --> 00:36:32.840
not the time she made that search. And his view

719
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:36.239
was that they never should have used that log file

720
00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:40.400
because that log file doesn't accurately show when someone typed

721
00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:44.119
in a search. It showed when the browser was opened,

722
00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:49.039
and so if she opened the browser evidence I'm saying

723
00:36:49.079 --> 00:36:51.719
they should have used the event log which would have

724
00:36:51.800 --> 00:36:54.519
showed exactly when she made the search, not the tab

725
00:36:54.760 --> 00:36:58.440
history database which showed when she opened the browser or

726
00:36:58.519 --> 00:37:01.440
when she opened the tab. So long story short. In

727
00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:04.760
Patrick's opinion, and I trust him on this, he believes

728
00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:08.119
that the searches were made at six twenty four am,

729
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:11.639
not at to twenty seven or am or whatever the

730
00:37:12.360 --> 00:37:14.800
times were, and he's pretty confident of that, and he

731
00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:18.039
looked through all of the different reports, including the report

732
00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:22.360
by the defense expert, who said that he believed the

733
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:26.440
searches were done at two twenty seven am. Patrick believes

734
00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:31.000
that the defense expert was not reading that correctly, you know,

735
00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:32.760
based on the data that was there.

736
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:38.000
But Alan Jackson at the trial presented there were multiple searches,

737
00:37:38.119 --> 00:37:41.159
like allegedly, if the two twenty seven am search happened,

738
00:37:41.719 --> 00:37:45.559
haslong to dian Cold, then her next search was how

739
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:49.599
TI die in CKLD, and then the one after that

740
00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:53.440
was hoslong to die in Cold. So it almost looked

741
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:57.679
like she wanted to delete that search from two twenty

742
00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:00.559
seven am. She was like, you know, the crimes since

743
00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:02.920
she was like, oh, I need to delete that and

744
00:38:03.079 --> 00:38:05.920
I can search it again, so it doesn't look like

745
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:07.480
I searched that in the middle of the night. And

746
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:09.920
then she made a typo again and then she was like, oh,

747
00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:12.480
I need to make the same typo. So she had

748
00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:16.280
searched like the same thing three times, and Alan Jackson

749
00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:18.719
just harped on her over and over about that, like,

750
00:38:19.559 --> 00:38:22.519
you know, why did you search for the same thing

751
00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:25.320
at six twenty three and six twenty four am.

752
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:28.840
Right, So, what I believe from what I've been able

753
00:38:28.880 --> 00:38:32.760
to understand, is she made two searches, one at six

754
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:36.880
twenty three and fifty seconds or whatever. That was the

755
00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:41.840
how tim search. Then she made the other one very

756
00:38:41.880 --> 00:38:46.360
shortly after that, which was the haas hos to die.

757
00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:50.119
Now I don't know. For me, I can't explain exactly

758
00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:53.280
why that second search is the one that showed up

759
00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:55.400
in the browser tab at two twenty seven am.

760
00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:57.519
So to me, that's kind of confusing because you would

761
00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:00.360
think that that the first search that she made would

762
00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:02.760
have been the one that showed up at two twenty

763
00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:03.239
seven am.

764
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:05.239
Yes, I agree, I don't have an explanation for that.

765
00:39:06.159 --> 00:39:09.480
Well, thank you for trying to explain it, and a

766
00:39:09.559 --> 00:39:12.079
huge things to Patrick who is always there to support

767
00:39:12.159 --> 00:39:13.639
us and help us out when we need.

768
00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:14.480
Its super helpful.

769
00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:16.760
But this it's just super confusing.

770
00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:19.599
Oh, it totally is. And I can I can completely

771
00:39:19.719 --> 00:39:22.280
understand if you're on a jury and you're hearing these

772
00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:25.400
explanations from these experts, and you know, it just doesn't

773
00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:26.440
make heads or tails.

774
00:39:26.440 --> 00:39:30.079
It's not logical, right because you're like I at my computer,

775
00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:32.119
like I searched, and you would think that the search

776
00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:33.800
would show up at the time that you searched it.

777
00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:36.440
Yeah, one would think, all right, we're going to try.

778
00:39:36.360 --> 00:39:39.760
To move on from that. The prosecution called a snowplow

779
00:39:39.880 --> 00:39:42.960
driver named Lucky who had plowed in front of the

780
00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:46.239
Elbert's home. He said he did not see a body

781
00:39:46.280 --> 00:39:48.119
in front of their house on the night of January

782
00:39:48.199 --> 00:39:51.119
twenty ninth. However, he did see a ford edge. We

783
00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:53.760
talked about this a little bit ago, and being a

784
00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:56.400
snowplow driver, I think you have a pretty good vantage point.

785
00:39:56.760 --> 00:39:59.119
You're up a little higher, you've got some bright lights.

786
00:39:59.239 --> 00:40:03.079
Right here's Turtle Boy talking about the snowplow evidence.

787
00:40:03.480 --> 00:40:06.239
And by the way, Vinnie, I was there to find

788
00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:09.519
out who plowed Fairview Road the night of January the

789
00:40:09.559 --> 00:40:12.360
morning of January twenty ninth, twenty twenty two, because they

790
00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:15.440
never interviewed the plow driver. And guess what, two months

791
00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:18.840
later I found that driver. His name is Brian Lucky Loughran.

792
00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:21.880
He plowed Fairview Road at two thirty in the morning.

793
00:40:22.159 --> 00:40:25.000
He went right by the house and John O'Keeffe's body

794
00:40:25.159 --> 00:40:27.760
was not on the front lawn. He also told me

795
00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:31.000
in an exclusive interview that he saw a ford edge

796
00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:33.920
park directly next to where John O'Keefe's body would be

797
00:40:34.039 --> 00:40:38.519
discovered three hours later, and he had been interviewed by

798
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:42.440
the FBI about that, and why didn't the state police

799
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:44.760
find this guy? Why didn't they track this guy down?

800
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:47.840
Because they didn't want to track him down because his information,

801
00:40:48.039 --> 00:40:52.119
his testimony proved that John O'Keefe was not killed by

802
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:54.440
Karen Reid at twelve thirty because he was not on

803
00:40:54.599 --> 00:40:57.519
that line of two thirty. And since breaking the story

804
00:40:57.679 --> 00:41:01.000
in August of twenty twenty two, the State Police to

805
00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:04.920
this day have done zero work to find out who

806
00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:07.400
was driving that ford Edge parked right next to John

807
00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:10.000
o'keef's body at three in the morning. You know why Thenny,

808
00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:13.599
Because they're too busy calling up ex girlfriends of mine

809
00:41:13.880 --> 00:41:17.000
and someone named Natalie and finding out how many times

810
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:19.360
I talked to Karen Reid, As if that matters, why

811
00:41:19.400 --> 00:41:21.639
don't they find out who's driving that ford Edge? Don't

812
00:41:21.639 --> 00:41:23.679
they want to know who killed the Boston police officer

813
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:26.239
because as sure as heck, wasn't Karen Reid because there

814
00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:28.880
was nobody on the lawn at two thirty. That's what

815
00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:31.760
I was doing in that clip, actual journalism that no

816
00:41:31.960 --> 00:41:34.519
other reporter is willing to do, and no police in

817
00:41:34.599 --> 00:41:35.639
this case are willing to do.

818
00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:40.199
He's very passionate about this case, and he knows he

819
00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:41.800
does know his stuff.

820
00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:45.119
That seems strange that the prosecution would have called Lucky

821
00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:48.000
because it seems like he'd be a defense testimony was

822
00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:49.400
more in support of the defense.

823
00:41:49.719 --> 00:41:53.760
Sometimes the prosecution will call a witness that seems more

824
00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:56.119
like their defense witness to.

825
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:00.880
Just a head off and he exiting that. Therefore, see, yes,

826
00:42:01.880 --> 00:42:04.599
not to question Lucky's account of what happened, but I

827
00:42:04.719 --> 00:42:08.480
do wonder how how easy it would be to remember exactly.

828
00:42:09.159 --> 00:42:11.400
I know there's a flag pole and maybe that's a landmark,

829
00:42:11.480 --> 00:42:13.880
but how easy it would remember to say, I didn't

830
00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:16.400
see a body in this exact spot, and I saw

831
00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:19.440
a car in this exact spot if you're driving around

832
00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:20.480
all these streets at night.

833
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:23.559
I don't know if he was local, but I think

834
00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:26.079
he was familiar with the Alberts home, and he just

835
00:42:26.119 --> 00:42:28.760
said I'd never seen that Ford edge there before. Okay,

836
00:42:29.199 --> 00:42:32.599
Allegedly Colin Albert may have driven a Ford edge.

837
00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:33.840
Hmm. Okay.

838
00:42:35.320 --> 00:42:38.159
The defense only had two days of testimony and they

839
00:42:38.199 --> 00:42:41.440
only called six witnesses. Their case hinged on one or

840
00:42:41.480 --> 00:42:43.760
more of the men at the Albert Home, beating John

841
00:42:43.800 --> 00:42:46.039
O'Keefe nearly to death and throwing him out into the

842
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:50.760
snow to die. Earlier in the night, at the Waterfall Bar, Albert,

843
00:42:50.920 --> 00:42:54.079
Brian Albert, and Brian Higgins were seen play fighting, and

844
00:42:54.199 --> 00:42:57.440
the defense alleged that they were warming up for later. Okay,

845
00:42:57.559 --> 00:42:59.440
so they really wanted to believe that this was pre

846
00:42:59.559 --> 00:43:03.079
medded to and whatever you think in this case, I

847
00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:05.000
don't think you can say that it was premeditated.

848
00:43:05.159 --> 00:43:06.159
I sure wouldn't think so.

849
00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:10.039
The defense called a forensic pathologist who believed the scratches

850
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:12.039
from John's arm could have been caused by a dog.

851
00:43:12.800 --> 00:43:17.280
Two crime scene reconstructionists who didn't believe John's injuries were

852
00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:21.199
consistent with being hit by a car. One testified that

853
00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:24.320
the broken tail light was not consistent with the damage

854
00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:27.320
that would be caused by a human body part coming

855
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:30.960
into contact with it. They also called Richard Green, an

856
00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:34.320
expert in digital forensics, and he did believe that John

857
00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:37.119
McCabe searched how long to die in the cold At

858
00:43:37.159 --> 00:43:41.159
two twenty seven am. Doctor Marie Russell testified that she

859
00:43:41.360 --> 00:43:45.440
detected combinations of bitemarks and scratches on the arm and

860
00:43:45.519 --> 00:43:49.360
puncture wounds on John's shirt. She said that she saw

861
00:43:49.480 --> 00:43:51.760
parallel wounds on his arm that could have been caused

862
00:43:51.800 --> 00:43:55.079
by scratches or teeth. She said she did not believe

863
00:43:55.119 --> 00:43:58.719
he was hit by a car. It just so hard

864
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:01.679
in these trials when they the information of the expert

865
00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:02.639
witnesses have.

866
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:05.440
Such completely opposite testimony.

867
00:44:05.559 --> 00:44:05.960
Yeah.

868
00:44:06.039 --> 00:44:10.000
I wanted to find a clip where you could see

869
00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:13.000
like the two different testimonies side by side. But it's

870
00:44:13.079 --> 00:44:15.280
really frustrating, and it is a juror. It must be

871
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:17.800
so hard to make heads or tails of it, Like

872
00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:20.000
you just have to pick a fighter.

873
00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:20.440
Yeah.

874
00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:21.400
Who.

875
00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:24.679
Karen Reid did not testify on her own behalf at

876
00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:25.119
the trial.

877
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:28.519
Some have called Karen Reid out for her behavior during

878
00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:31.840
the trial. She had been seen making faces, winking at

879
00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:35.679
cameras and snacking. Why are they denegrating snacking?

880
00:44:36.199 --> 00:44:38.079
I know, out rage.

881
00:44:39.320 --> 00:44:42.000
She has been criticized for the length of her skirts

882
00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:45.760
and the cost of her clothing. Eagle eyed observers noted

883
00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:48.559
one of her jackets was a Veronica beard piece that

884
00:44:48.719 --> 00:44:51.960
retails for six hundred and ninety five dollars. If you

885
00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:54.000
didn't know what Karen looked like, it would be hard

886
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:57.719
to discern her from her defense team. She remained calm

887
00:44:57.800 --> 00:45:02.000
and professional, rarely showing emotion during the trial, although she

888
00:45:02.119 --> 00:45:05.159
did seem to react to certain witnesses and sometimes smirked

889
00:45:05.159 --> 00:45:09.559
when they testified. The jury began deliberations on Tuesday, June

890
00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:13.320
twenty fifth, less than ten percent of jury's deadlock according

891
00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:17.159
to the Court Statistics Project. Before lunch on Friday, June

892
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:20.039
twenty eighth, the fourth day of deliberations, the jury sent

893
00:45:20.119 --> 00:45:21.800
a note to the judge and told her that they

894
00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:25.280
were unable to reach a unanimous verdict. The judge told

895
00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:28.079
them they hadn't deliberated long enough to declare a deadlock

896
00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:31.280
and asked them to keep working after lunch. At the

897
00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:34.280
end of the day Friday, they still hadn't reached a consensus.

898
00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:37.880
On Monday morning, July first, the jury again reached out

899
00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:40.679
to the judge and said, quote, we are deeply divided

900
00:45:40.760 --> 00:45:43.800
by fundamental differences in our opinions and state of mind.

901
00:45:44.360 --> 00:45:46.920
The divergence in our views are not rooted in a

902
00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:50.519
lack of understanding or effort, but deeply held convictions that

903
00:45:50.599 --> 00:45:53.519
each of us carry, ultimately leading to a point where

904
00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:56.760
consensus is unattainable. End quote, that's.

905
00:45:56.880 --> 00:46:00.400
Quite a cent that's quite a statement, right, yeah. Pressed

906
00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:02.000
by the way it was worded.

907
00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:05.599
Judge Canone again reminded them of the importance of working

908
00:46:05.679 --> 00:46:09.039
together to reach a verdict. Canoni told them to keep

909
00:46:09.159 --> 00:46:13.639
deliberating under a last resort measure called the Tui Rodriguez instruction,

910
00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:18.000
also known as the Allen charge in some jurisdictions. It

911
00:46:18.119 --> 00:46:20.320
is a directive given by a judge to a deadlock

912
00:46:20.440 --> 00:46:23.639
jury to encourage them to continue deliberating until they reach

913
00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:26.280
a verdict. It reminds the jurors that they are in

914
00:46:26.360 --> 00:46:29.159
a unique position and are the people best equipped to

915
00:46:29.320 --> 00:46:33.360
decide the case. The instruction emphasizes the importance of reaching

916
00:46:33.400 --> 00:46:36.960
a unanimous decision and encourages jurors to listen to each

917
00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:41.039
other's viewpoints and re examine their own positions while maintaining

918
00:46:41.079 --> 00:46:45.760
their honest convictions. This instruction aims to prevent a mistrial

919
00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:50.119
by promoting further discussion and consideration among the jurors.

920
00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:52.800
It's kind of wild to me, because you know, they've

921
00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:54.880
been doing this for days and days, and I'm sure

922
00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:57.840
they did everything in their power to reach a verdict

923
00:46:57.960 --> 00:47:00.320
until the judge keeps telling them nope, keep going. You've

924
00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:01.280
tried to go back to your room.

925
00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:05.559
The jury returned in the early afternoon and again declared

926
00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:06.480
that they were stuck.

927
00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:10.840
Despite our rigorous efforts, we continue to find ourselves at

928
00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:15.159
an impasse. Our perspectives on the evidence are starkly divided.

929
00:47:16.039 --> 00:47:18.920
Some members of the jury firmly believe that the evidence

930
00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:22.599
surpasses the burden of proof, establishing the elements of the

931
00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:27.960
charges beyond of reasonable doubt. Conversely, others find the evidence

932
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:31.599
fails to meet this standard and does not sufficiently establish

933
00:47:31.719 --> 00:47:35.800
the necessary elements of the charges. The deep division is

934
00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:38.320
not due to a lack of effort or diligence, but

935
00:47:38.519 --> 00:47:43.480
rather a sincere adherence to our individual principles and moral convictions.

936
00:47:44.519 --> 00:47:47.880
To continue to deliberate would be futile and only serve

937
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:50.840
to force us to compromise these deeply held beliefs.

938
00:47:51.800 --> 00:47:54.159
I'm not going to do that to you, folks. Your

939
00:47:54.239 --> 00:47:57.519
service is complete. I'm declaring a mistrial.

940
00:47:57.119 --> 00:48:02.199
In this case. That's kind of trading for prosecutors, especially

941
00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:03.199
after all the work.

942
00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:06.440
They put in, and well for everyone, yeah, and for

943
00:48:06.599 --> 00:48:10.159
the defendant who has paid a lot of money.

944
00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:14.039
For true good point. It's unclear at this time whether

945
00:48:14.119 --> 00:48:17.960
prosecutors will retry the case against Karen Reid. A hearing

946
00:48:18.039 --> 00:48:21.000
will be held on July twenty second, which is two

947
00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:24.760
days from the time we're actually recording this, but will

948
00:48:25.079 --> 00:48:27.920
have passed by the time you're most likely listening to this,

949
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:30.880
So we will come back and do a quick update

950
00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:33.199
and insert it here into.

951
00:48:33.239 --> 00:48:35.679
I would like the tires. Oh, we're so close, but

952
00:48:35.800 --> 00:48:37.119
we don't know what's going to happen yet.

953
00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:39.440
It'll be really interesting to see what they what they

954
00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:44.079
decide though. After the mistrial was declared, Paul O'Keefe, John's brother,

955
00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:48.400
told WBZ TV quote, throughout the trial, she liked to

956
00:48:48.440 --> 00:48:50.760
turn and look at me and smirk. She has never

957
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:53.920
once made eye contact with my wife Erin, so when

958
00:48:53.960 --> 00:48:56.519
the mistrial was announced, she turned and looked right at

959
00:48:56.599 --> 00:48:59.880
Aarin and gave her a smirk. End quote. After the

960
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:02.880
this trial was declared, Paul told Karen, quote, you're not

961
00:49:03.079 --> 00:49:04.239
done yet. Unquote.

962
00:49:05.119 --> 00:49:08.599
Prior to John's death, I believe John's family liked Karen

963
00:49:08.679 --> 00:49:10.760
quite a bit and they were all pretty tight. Yeah,

964
00:49:11.320 --> 00:49:14.840
we'll rest in peace. John O'Keefe. John was a beloved son, brother, uncle,

965
00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:18.280
and father. John's friends and family have taken to buying

966
00:49:18.360 --> 00:49:20.159
a bud light for him when they go out to

967
00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:23.559
remember him. His absence is a gaping hole to his family,

968
00:49:23.719 --> 00:49:27.679
especially Kayley and Patrick, who have now lost three of

969
00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:30.760
the most important people in their life. John gave a

970
00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:34.199
eulogy at his sister's funeral, and referring to her children,

971
00:49:34.360 --> 00:49:38.159
he said, quote, We'll take it from here. His brother

972
00:49:38.280 --> 00:49:41.920
repeated the same words at John's funeral, So we send

973
00:49:41.960 --> 00:49:45.039
our thoughts and love to Kailey and Patrick. On Monday,

974
00:49:45.400 --> 00:49:49.159
July first, hours after the mistrial was announced, Michael Proctor

975
00:49:49.400 --> 00:49:52.360
was quote relieved of his duties at the Norfolk County

976
00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:56.159
District Attorney's Office and was reassigned to Troopy.

977
00:49:56.480 --> 00:50:02.599
Dot how right something, whatever it is.

978
00:50:03.559 --> 00:50:09.440
Interim State Police Superintendent Colonel John Maun released the following statement. Quote.

979
00:50:09.519 --> 00:50:13.239
Upon learning today's result, the department took immediate action to

980
00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:16.960
relieve Trooper Michael Procter of duty and formally transfer him

981
00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:20.840
out of Norfolk County District Attorney's Office State Police Detective Unit.

982
00:50:21.440 --> 00:50:24.599
This follows our previous decision to open an internal affairs

983
00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:29.639
investigation after information about serious misconduct emerged in testimony at

984
00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:33.800
the trial. The investigation is ongoing end quote. I'm sure

985
00:50:33.800 --> 00:50:36.719
that is the only bad apple, now, are you right?

986
00:50:37.239 --> 00:50:37.440
Yeah?

987
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:41.639
Likely not, But I hope Troop H is a miserable place.

988
00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:44.559
Because he sang out it's like a Proctor was forced

989
00:50:44.599 --> 00:50:47.800
to relinquish his badge, gun and uniforms. One week after

990
00:50:47.880 --> 00:50:51.159
the trial, after a closed door disciplinary hearing, he was

991
00:50:51.199 --> 00:50:55.760
suspended without pay while the investigation continues, which is a

992
00:50:55.840 --> 00:50:59.079
big deal because a lot of times officers are given

993
00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:04.119
their pay right. State Police Association of Massachusetts President Brian

994
00:51:04.199 --> 00:51:07.599
Williams said, in regards to Proctor's suspension quote, we would

995
00:51:07.719 --> 00:51:12.480
like to reiterate that unless the department's ongoing investigation proves otherwise,

996
00:51:13.000 --> 00:51:18.679
yesterday's action have no relationship to salacious allegations of cover ups, collusions,

997
00:51:18.800 --> 00:51:23.639
or conspiracies offered by the defense end quote. He said

998
00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:27.400
Proctor was suspended because of the content of his text messages,

999
00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:31.039
not his work on the investigations.

1000
00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:32.400
And hard to separate those things out, Isn't it that

1001
00:51:32.519 --> 00:51:33.519
makes you so mad?

1002
00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:38.159
Kevin Albert, another brother of Brian Albert's that we haven't

1003
00:51:38.199 --> 00:51:41.679
talked about yet, also a police officer, was placed on

1004
00:51:41.800 --> 00:51:45.639
paid administrative leave in June twenty twenty four. His actions

1005
00:51:45.719 --> 00:51:49.400
in the Karen Reid case are under review by independent investigation.

1006
00:51:49.840 --> 00:51:53.039
I'm not really sure what he did. Dateline was at

1007
00:51:53.079 --> 00:51:58.360
the trial. Of course, Dennis Murphy interviewed Karen and it

1008
00:51:58.480 --> 00:52:01.960
was played on the Today Show. We're not going to

1009
00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:04.840
play it, but you can find that online. That should

1010
00:52:04.880 --> 00:52:09.679
be out pretty soon. On Friday, July nineteenth, Netflix announced

1011
00:52:09.760 --> 00:52:12.960
a new three part docu series about the case. Again

1012
00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:13.719
not surprising.

1013
00:52:13.840 --> 00:52:15.519
Yeah, that's quick, though, there's.

1014
00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:17.239
Going to be a lot well, I'm not saying it's

1015
00:52:17.239 --> 00:52:18.320
going to be released any time.

1016
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:20.440
So the fact that I announced it even quick.

1017
00:52:20.960 --> 00:52:24.639
There will likely be you know, lifetime movies and books.

1018
00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:27.360
And at this point there are no restrictions to Karen

1019
00:52:27.400 --> 00:52:30.480
read making money from the case. And Turtle Boy has

1020
00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:33.599
also been approached by Netflix. I mean, he is a

1021
00:52:33.679 --> 00:52:37.039
really interesting character and whether you agree with him or not,

1022
00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:42.320
he's very well spoken, and he's smart, and like.

1023
00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:44.280
You said earlier, he's brought a lot of attention to

1024
00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:46.760
this case and really raised the visibility of it.

1025
00:52:46.840 --> 00:52:46.960
Right.

1026
00:52:47.159 --> 00:52:51.760
I mension he's handsome too. I'm afraid he and his

1027
00:52:51.920 --> 00:52:56.679
followers are going to come from us. And April article

1028
00:52:56.719 --> 00:52:59.519
in the Boston Globe revealed that John's parents have custody

1029
00:52:59.599 --> 00:53:02.079
of k and Patrick at this time, I'm not sure

1030
00:53:02.119 --> 00:53:05.480
if that will change or not. On July seventeenth, Karen

1031
00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:09.719
put her Mansfield, Massachusetts home up for sale. It's a

1032
00:53:09.800 --> 00:53:13.559
four bedroom, three bath home, twenty five hundred square feet

1033
00:53:13.679 --> 00:53:16.360
where you know I'm obsessed with realists. Oh yeah, for

1034
00:53:16.599 --> 00:53:19.400
eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars. I think I put

1035
00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:20.920
a link in her show notes if you want to

1036
00:53:20.920 --> 00:53:24.880
see Karen's house, lovely house. I just wanted to point

1037
00:53:24.880 --> 00:53:26.760
out that there's a lot of money to be made

1038
00:53:26.800 --> 00:53:27.440
in true crime.

1039
00:53:27.559 --> 00:53:28.320
There is and.

1040
00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:36.039
For everyone, Okay, for some people, like if we became

1041
00:53:36.159 --> 00:53:38.760
high profile like turn a Boy, we'd probably be raking in.

1042
00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:42.679
We might be getting a Lexus. But there's a lot

1043
00:53:42.719 --> 00:53:44.360
of money to be made. And with a case, a

1044
00:53:44.440 --> 00:53:48.920
high profile case like Karen, read exponentially, so there is

1045
00:53:48.960 --> 00:53:52.559
a lot of interest. And content creators are paid by clicks, views,

1046
00:53:52.719 --> 00:53:58.519
and downloads. A popular TikTok YouTube or podcast can become

1047
00:53:58.920 --> 00:54:03.400
viral consumers. We need to be cautious of content creators intent.

1048
00:54:04.119 --> 00:54:07.559
A conspiracy theory is much more titillating than a cotton

1049
00:54:07.639 --> 00:54:11.360
dry salt case. Everyone makes a lot more money in

1050
00:54:11.440 --> 00:54:14.199
a case like Karen reads, and it behooves the creators

1051
00:54:14.880 --> 00:54:16.719
to feed conspiracy theory.

1052
00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:18.599
It's very well said, and I think it's a really

1053
00:54:18.840 --> 00:54:20.280
really important point to make.

1054
00:54:21.159 --> 00:54:24.400
And we're making money. I mean, we have not yet

1055
00:54:24.440 --> 00:54:27.199
bought a lot. We did we did buy a peloton.

1056
00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:30.159
We did buy a peloton. Yes, but that's the best thing.

1057
00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:32.880
To Alexis and we're I mean, we're guilty of it

1058
00:54:33.079 --> 00:54:35.800
to to a certain extent. We're doing the Karen Reid

1059
00:54:35.880 --> 00:54:37.840
trial because we know people will want to listen to

1060
00:54:37.960 --> 00:54:39.960
it and it will get us more clicks and download.

1061
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:41.920
So I don't want to pretend like we're above it,

1062
00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:46.199
because we're not. But we're also I think our listeners are.

1063
00:54:47.360 --> 00:54:51.599
They know that we try our best to be objective

1064
00:54:51.920 --> 00:54:53.159
and ethical.

1065
00:54:53.000 --> 00:54:55.239
And yeah, we really try hard to be authentic and

1066
00:54:55.360 --> 00:54:57.360
be who we are, which is I think by our

1067
00:54:57.519 --> 00:55:01.000
both of our natures. We are both tried it really

1068
00:55:01.039 --> 00:55:03.480
hard to be objective and not jump to conclusions.

1069
00:55:03.639 --> 00:55:06.239
But I do jump to especially me. I'm pretty emotional,

1070
00:55:06.280 --> 00:55:08.039
and if I think the husband did it, I'm not

1071
00:55:08.119 --> 00:55:10.199
afraid to say it. But we do our best, that's all.

1072
00:55:10.239 --> 00:55:13.400
I'm trying to say, but you know, just I think

1073
00:55:13.480 --> 00:55:16.800
people are smart and they can make their own decisions,

1074
00:55:16.920 --> 00:55:19.519
but I just wanted to put that in there. On Monday,

1075
00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:22.760
July eighth, Karen Read's lawyers moved to have two of

1076
00:55:22.880 --> 00:55:26.239
the three charges against her dropped after learning that during

1077
00:55:26.280 --> 00:55:30.159
their deliberation, the jury had unanimously found her innocent on

1078
00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:33.960
two of the charges, second degree murder and leaving the

1079
00:55:34.039 --> 00:55:37.440
scene of a deadly accident in emotion. They argued that

1080
00:55:37.599 --> 00:55:40.159
if she were tried for the two charges again, it

1081
00:55:40.159 --> 00:55:44.480
would violate double jeopardy laws. The third charge, manslaughter while

1082
00:55:44.519 --> 00:55:48.000
operating a motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol, was

1083
00:55:48.079 --> 00:55:50.519
the charge that the jury was deadlocked over.

1084
00:55:50.679 --> 00:55:50.880
Wow.

1085
00:55:51.039 --> 00:55:54.239
Interesting, Yeah, and I think they came to the two

1086
00:55:54.360 --> 00:55:58.639
conclusions fairly quickly. Three jurors. Actually it might be five

1087
00:55:58.760 --> 00:56:01.760
now because I wrote this, I think it's five. Five

1088
00:56:01.880 --> 00:56:05.119
jurors in the case contacted Karen Read's lawyers to inform

1089
00:56:05.199 --> 00:56:09.039
them of the jury's findings. The jurors were frustrated that

1090
00:56:09.079 --> 00:56:11.679
their findings were not made public, and they didn't want

1091
00:56:11.800 --> 00:56:15.840
Karen to retried on the two counts that they unanimously

1092
00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:16.679
found her innocent.

1093
00:56:16.760 --> 00:56:16.920
Off.

1094
00:56:18.119 --> 00:56:21.639
In response, the Norfolk District Attorney's office said in a

1095
00:56:21.719 --> 00:56:25.880
statement they are quote examining the motion in anticipation of

1096
00:56:26.039 --> 00:56:28.880
filing a response. We look forward to picking a new

1097
00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:34.599
trial date on July twenty second. According to NBC ten Boston,

1098
00:56:35.280 --> 00:56:38.960
they say the defense's arguments are based on quote hearsay,

1099
00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:44.000
conjecture and legally inappropriate reliance as to the substance of

1100
00:56:44.119 --> 00:56:48.000
jury deliberations. The prosecutors call Karen's lawyers, claims that the

1101
00:56:48.079 --> 00:56:51.480
jury ever reached any unanimous decision and any of the

1102
00:56:51.599 --> 00:56:57.400
charges unsubstantiated and sensational, and they plan to file a

1103
00:56:57.480 --> 00:57:02.239
response soon and leave. At this point, they are saying

1104
00:57:02.280 --> 00:57:03.880
that they are going to retry the case.

1105
00:57:04.039 --> 00:57:06.880
Wow. Interesting, It'll be interesting to see what the ruling

1106
00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:08.679
is on that because I can I can sort of

1107
00:57:08.719 --> 00:57:11.719
see both sides that, Yeah, it's based on hearsay, but

1108
00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:14.360
still if the jurors, all.

1109
00:57:14.159 --> 00:57:17.159
You get answer is the cost and the emotion.

1110
00:57:18.039 --> 00:57:22.760
Yeah. Well, I think even before learning this news, my

1111
00:57:22.920 --> 00:57:25.320
feeling was that secondary murder didn't.

1112
00:57:25.519 --> 00:57:27.400
Had Tod just put a trial in the first place.

1113
00:57:27.280 --> 00:57:32.000
Really, involuntary manslaughter, I could see that being a good question,

1114
00:57:32.199 --> 00:57:33.639
But secondary murder now.

1115
00:57:39.920 --> 00:57:43.559
So fast forward three weeks. It's Sunday, August fourth, and

1116
00:57:43.719 --> 00:57:47.440
we recorded the Karen Reid episodes three weeks ago, and

1117
00:57:47.679 --> 00:57:51.960
in that time, on Monday July twenty second, three weeks

1118
00:57:52.039 --> 00:57:57.480
after this trial was declared, Judge Beverly Conone scheduled January fourteenth,

1119
00:57:57.599 --> 00:58:01.119
twenty twenty five, for a pre trial. Come in January

1120
00:58:01.199 --> 00:58:05.159
twenty seventh, twenty twenty five as a new trial date.

1121
00:58:05.840 --> 00:58:08.800
The hearing lasted less than five minutes, so they're going

1122
00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:09.960
to go ahead and retry her.

1123
00:58:10.119 --> 00:58:11.360
Oh, I'm a little surprised.

1124
00:58:12.159 --> 00:58:15.199
On August ninth, the judge will hear the defense's motion

1125
00:58:15.440 --> 00:58:19.000
to dismiss some of the charges against Karen Reid. The

1126
00:58:19.079 --> 00:58:22.639
two charges that several jurors came forward to notify the

1127
00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:25.480
defense that they were unanimous on second degree murder and

1128
00:58:25.719 --> 00:58:29.320
leaving the scene of a fatal accident. I've since learned,

1129
00:58:29.559 --> 00:58:31.960
you know, when the jury goes into the jury room

1130
00:58:32.079 --> 00:58:34.920
to start making their deliberations, they take an initial vote.

1131
00:58:35.480 --> 00:58:38.880
The initial vote, I think on the two charges that

1132
00:58:39.039 --> 00:58:42.480
they were unanimous on were unanimous from the beginning, and

1133
00:58:42.760 --> 00:58:47.000
the charge of manslaughter was six to six initially, then

1134
00:58:47.840 --> 00:58:50.880
it was eight to four and then ultimately nine to

1135
00:58:50.960 --> 00:58:54.320
three in favor of in favor of not guilty.

1136
00:58:54.480 --> 00:58:54.800
Okay.

1137
00:58:55.559 --> 00:58:59.679
Karen Reid's defense attorney, Alan Jackson wrote in court documents, quote,

1138
00:59:00.199 --> 00:59:03.199
there was no manifest necessity for a mistrial as to

1139
00:59:03.320 --> 00:59:07.079
those counts, and therefore the double jeopardy protections of the

1140
00:59:07.159 --> 00:59:11.480
federal and state constitutions require that those counts not be tried.

1141
00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:14.920
It's very tricky, and I don't know if there's a

1142
00:59:14.920 --> 00:59:17.079
lot of precedent on a case like this. I've heard

1143
00:59:17.159 --> 00:59:20.840
legal scholars say that they probably will not dismiss those charges,

1144
00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:23.280
that they will go ahead and try them again. But

1145
00:59:23.400 --> 00:59:27.800
it's such a costly trial. Yeah, hundreds of people once

1146
00:59:27.800 --> 00:59:30.679
again gathered around the courthouse in support of Karen, and

1147
00:59:30.800 --> 00:59:34.880
it appears that Massachusetts attorney David Yannetti and high profile

1148
00:59:34.960 --> 00:59:38.559
attorney Alan Jackson will continue to represent Karen Reid.

1149
00:59:39.280 --> 00:59:41.559
Wow, it's going to be such a costly trial, and

1150
00:59:41.639 --> 00:59:45.760
I think the odds of them getting a conviction is

1151
00:59:46.199 --> 00:59:46.880
it's not great.

1152
00:59:47.039 --> 00:59:50.480
They can't get rid of Michael proct Now. He's always

1153
00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:53.800
going to be an issue in this case moving forward.

1154
00:59:54.239 --> 00:59:57.559
And sadly, the people of Canton are still very divided.

1155
00:59:57.719 --> 01:00:00.960
I heard that some people that that were supporters of

1156
01:00:01.079 --> 01:00:05.039
Karen Reid had like balloons filled with bleach like thrown

1157
01:00:05.079 --> 01:00:07.440
out of their yards and into their gardens. It's just

1158
01:00:08.440 --> 01:00:11.199
very divided and it's really tragic.

1159
01:00:11.440 --> 01:00:12.480
Yeah, for sure.

1160
01:00:18.760 --> 01:00:22.320
I have some questions for you. Now, should Karen's trial

1161
01:00:22.760 --> 01:00:25.840
been moved out of Canton, Massachusetts? And I say that,

1162
01:00:25.920 --> 01:00:29.159
but it actually was in Detum, not in Canton, but

1163
01:00:29.280 --> 01:00:32.639
it's only like I think five to ten miles away.

1164
01:00:33.199 --> 01:00:34.719
Should she her case in trial?

1165
01:00:34.760 --> 01:00:37.119
My opinion is yes, it's just with all the close

1166
01:00:37.199 --> 01:00:40.360
relationships and all, it just seems like that would have

1167
01:00:40.400 --> 01:00:40.880
made sense.

1168
01:00:41.039 --> 01:00:45.440
Yeah, considering her blood and alcohol content. Should Karen have

1169
01:00:45.559 --> 01:00:48.159
been tried for second degree murder? The kind of talked

1170
01:00:48.199 --> 01:00:48.960
about this already.

1171
01:00:49.559 --> 01:00:52.119
Yeah, I already kind of answered that in my opinion. No,

1172
01:00:52.440 --> 01:00:56.239
if if she was responsible for killing John, to me,

1173
01:00:56.480 --> 01:01:00.000
it seems like it was involuntary manslaughter, Like it probably

1174
01:01:00.400 --> 01:01:02.840
wasn't premeditated, It probably wasn't planned.

1175
01:01:03.239 --> 01:01:05.880
Yeah, if she was black out drunk, there was no

1176
01:01:06.039 --> 01:01:09.599
intent there. Right, This is conjecture on my part. But

1177
01:01:09.840 --> 01:01:12.360
Brian Albert said he let Chloe the dog out when

1178
01:01:12.400 --> 01:01:14.800
they got home from the bar, so you know, like

1179
01:01:15.079 --> 01:01:19.119
twelve fifteen ish, and that's around the time that John

1180
01:01:19.159 --> 01:01:22.039
and Karen pulled up. So I'm wondering if maybe Chloe

1181
01:01:22.159 --> 01:01:25.000
could have attacked him, maybe and he could have hit

1182
01:01:25.079 --> 01:01:26.320
his head on something.

1183
01:01:26.679 --> 01:01:29.760
Yeah, I suppose that's was sound kind of by the curb. Yeah,

1184
01:01:29.840 --> 01:01:31.480
I do feel like you know, you showed me the

1185
01:01:31.559 --> 01:01:33.920
pictures of his arm, the injuries on his arm, and

1186
01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:36.559
my first reaction was they didn't look like dog injuries.

1187
01:01:36.599 --> 01:01:39.119
But the more I looked at it, and knowing that

1188
01:01:39.239 --> 01:01:42.920
Chloe was a large dog, I could sort of see

1189
01:01:42.960 --> 01:01:46.280
that it might be caused by a dog. So, yeah,

1190
01:01:46.360 --> 01:01:47.480
it's an interesting.

1191
01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:50.199
I'm not a dog expert either, I could go either way. Yeah,

1192
01:01:51.679 --> 01:01:54.480
if you were going to intentionally hit someone with a car,

1193
01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:56.840
wouldn't you hit them head on and not like back up?

1194
01:01:58.119 --> 01:02:00.519
Yeah for sure. But if you're really drunk and you're

1195
01:02:00.559 --> 01:02:02.400
just acting in the heat of the moment, maybe I

1196
01:02:02.440 --> 01:02:04.719
could see, you know, just putting it in reverse and

1197
01:02:05.559 --> 01:02:06.639
hitting the accelerator.

1198
01:02:06.719 --> 01:02:07.000
Maybe.

1199
01:02:07.480 --> 01:02:10.400
But yes, if you were planning on it and you were,

1200
01:02:11.079 --> 01:02:13.199
you know, trying to intentionally do that, yeah, you wouldn't

1201
01:02:13.239 --> 01:02:15.440
do it in reverse going twenty five miles an hour.

1202
01:02:15.639 --> 01:02:18.559
Yeah, does this case feel like a Martin Scorsese film.

1203
01:02:18.639 --> 01:02:20.639
To you, it feels a little more like a Dennis

1204
01:02:20.719 --> 01:02:24.920
Lahane novel. But maybe a Martin Scorsese film based on

1205
01:02:25.039 --> 01:02:26.199
a Denis Lahane novel.

1206
01:02:26.599 --> 01:02:31.599
Yeah. What is the motive for killing John? Whether from

1207
01:02:31.679 --> 01:02:33.480
Karen or the men?

1208
01:02:34.280 --> 01:02:36.800
I mean, boy, I mean it's a good question. I

1209
01:02:36.840 --> 01:02:39.400
think if Karen did it, I don't think there was

1210
01:02:39.440 --> 01:02:41.880
a motive. I think it was they were arguing, not

1211
01:02:41.920 --> 01:02:45.519
an accident, but arguing heat of the moment, maybe an

1212
01:02:45.559 --> 01:02:49.079
accident or maybe just you know, a sudden like burst

1213
01:02:49.159 --> 01:02:51.320
of anger or something that caused her to do that.

1214
01:02:52.239 --> 01:02:56.480
If it was the Alberts, then I really don't know.

1215
01:02:56.599 --> 01:02:59.719
I mean that we talked about a few little conflicts

1216
01:02:59.719 --> 01:03:02.440
about out, you know, the bottles on the lawn and

1217
01:03:02.519 --> 01:03:06.840
things like that, and maybe it was Brian Higgins who

1218
01:03:06.880 --> 01:03:10.159
had the little fling with with Karen, right, So I

1219
01:03:10.239 --> 01:03:12.360
mean I suppose there could be something there, but none

1220
01:03:12.400 --> 01:03:15.679
of those seem like they're a big enough issue to

1221
01:03:15.880 --> 01:03:19.960
cause someone to you know, kill someone in that way.

1222
01:03:20.159 --> 01:03:21.119
Just doesn't read.

1223
01:03:21.039 --> 01:03:28.719
Something about John seeing camera bring camera footage Higgins kissing Karen. Yeah,

1224
01:03:29.280 --> 01:03:32.280
but we have the text messages from the morning of

1225
01:03:32.440 --> 01:03:35.239
his death, and he didn't say anything about it, so

1226
01:03:35.320 --> 01:03:37.800
I don't think he cared that much.

1227
01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:38.199
Yeah.

1228
01:03:38.960 --> 01:03:41.360
How much do you think Karen's defense cost?

1229
01:03:42.400 --> 01:03:42.519
Oh?

1230
01:03:42.599 --> 01:03:44.199
I don't know. Half a million.

1231
01:03:44.559 --> 01:03:45.719
I think it was at least a million.

1232
01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:47.000
Really, it was over a million.

1233
01:03:47.199 --> 01:03:50.440
Yeah, but I mean, I'm not sure how deals work

1234
01:03:50.519 --> 01:03:53.159
in Hollywood, but I think she does stand to make

1235
01:03:53.320 --> 01:03:53.920
some money off.

1236
01:03:54.039 --> 01:03:55.039
Yeah, story true.

1237
01:03:56.000 --> 01:03:59.079
If this whole thing was not a conspiracy and the

1238
01:03:59.199 --> 01:04:02.280
Albert family and the mccabs have been put through all

1239
01:04:02.320 --> 01:04:05.159
of this, I just wanted to say that I think

1240
01:04:05.199 --> 01:04:09.159
they've suffered and they've been treated really badly, and I

1241
01:04:09.280 --> 01:04:11.719
do have empathy for them in their situation.

1242
01:04:12.360 --> 01:04:12.599
Yeah.

1243
01:04:12.719 --> 01:04:15.599
Absolutely, So what's your theory?

1244
01:04:17.079 --> 01:04:21.039
Okay, So my theory? This is really tough. So let

1245
01:04:21.079 --> 01:04:24.239
me just first say I think it's possible for more

1246
01:04:24.280 --> 01:04:26.599
than one thing to be true. I think it's possible

1247
01:04:26.760 --> 01:04:31.280
that the cops in this case were corrupt and or

1248
01:04:32.159 --> 01:04:34.000
incompetent or did shoddy work.

1249
01:04:34.119 --> 01:04:35.920
I don't think that is controversial at all.

1250
01:04:36.199 --> 01:04:38.480
Okay, but I think it's possible that that is true,

1251
01:04:38.639 --> 01:04:44.159
and also that Karen Reid killed John O'Keefe somehow. And

1252
01:04:44.639 --> 01:04:48.280
I think if I had to so. Let me also

1253
01:04:48.320 --> 01:04:50.960
say secondly, if I was on the jury, I don't

1254
01:04:50.960 --> 01:04:52.800
think I could have convicted Karen Reid.

1255
01:04:52.880 --> 01:04:53.760
Oh absolutely not.

1256
01:04:54.199 --> 01:04:57.079
But in my heart of hearts, I think that she

1257
01:04:57.360 --> 01:05:01.039
probably did kill him, maybe accidentally, maybe in a fit

1258
01:05:01.119 --> 01:05:04.599
of anger. I think that all of the you know,

1259
01:05:04.639 --> 01:05:07.639
I think that the testimony of people saying that she

1260
01:05:07.880 --> 01:05:11.679
said I hit him or did I hit him, indicate

1261
01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:14.800
that she felt some guilt around that. The one piece

1262
01:05:14.880 --> 01:05:17.079
of evidence that to me was pretty compelling that we

1263
01:05:17.159 --> 01:05:20.519
talked about in the first case. I think you mentioned

1264
01:05:20.519 --> 01:05:23.480
that there the first episode was that there were microscopic

1265
01:05:24.599 --> 01:05:28.599
pieces from the tail light found embedded like in his sweatshirt.

1266
01:05:29.119 --> 01:05:33.000
And to me, that couldn't be unless he was hit

1267
01:05:33.119 --> 01:05:35.679
by her car. And I don't think you could plant

1268
01:05:36.039 --> 01:05:37.639
that type of evidence. I think it would be really

1269
01:05:37.679 --> 01:05:41.920
hard to plant microscopic pieces of a tail light into

1270
01:05:41.960 --> 01:05:44.519
someone's sweatshirt. So that was the one piece that I

1271
01:05:44.599 --> 01:05:48.159
think was really compelling. But I think everything else, you know,

1272
01:05:48.199 --> 01:05:51.719
if I consider it, I think she probably did it,

1273
01:05:52.000 --> 01:05:53.760
But I don't think I could have convicted her.

1274
01:05:55.000 --> 01:06:03.480
Interesting, what about you, Oh, my opinion doesn't matter. I agree, Actually,

1275
01:06:03.719 --> 01:06:08.079
I agree with you pretty much, one hundred percent. I

1276
01:06:08.239 --> 01:06:11.519
think that they probably were having an argument. I think

1277
01:06:12.400 --> 01:06:17.000
their relationship it was very volatile, was volatile. They'd gotten

1278
01:06:17.039 --> 01:06:20.280
along that night, but I think something might have happened

1279
01:06:20.320 --> 01:06:22.559
at the bar. You know, like you're at an event,

1280
01:06:22.679 --> 01:06:24.280
you're at a friend's house or something, and then you

1281
01:06:24.440 --> 01:06:26.320
leave and then you kind of have a discussion and

1282
01:06:26.440 --> 01:06:29.360
it kind of can go south, like I can't believe

1283
01:06:29.400 --> 01:06:31.280
you did that, or you made me mad. So it

1284
01:06:31.400 --> 01:06:35.039
was probably something like that. I do think that John

1285
01:06:35.159 --> 01:06:39.519
could have thrown the cocktail glass at the car and

1286
01:06:39.599 --> 01:06:42.199
broken the tailight as he exited the vehicle.

1287
01:06:43.119 --> 01:06:45.360
And then maybe that pissed her off and she slammed

1288
01:06:45.360 --> 01:06:47.400
it into reverse and hit him.

1289
01:06:47.360 --> 01:06:51.880
Right, I don't know. I don't see her doing it intentionally.

1290
01:06:51.960 --> 01:06:55.280
I think that she likely hit him by a mistake.

1291
01:06:55.599 --> 01:06:55.760
Yeah.

1292
01:06:55.800 --> 01:06:58.400
She was pretty drunk though, so even if it was intentional,

1293
01:06:58.480 --> 01:07:02.039
it might have been. But under the influence of a

1294
01:07:02.079 --> 01:07:02.360
lot of.

1295
01:07:02.559 --> 01:07:06.199
Alcohol, right, I mean, she was pretty intoxicated and so

1296
01:07:06.400 --> 01:07:08.840
was he, right, So it was just like these two people.

1297
01:07:09.159 --> 01:07:11.440
No one should have been driving. And I haven't really

1298
01:07:11.519 --> 01:07:14.000
heard a lot of people talking about this, but I was.

1299
01:07:14.920 --> 01:07:17.840
She was very drunk and she should not have been driving.

1300
01:07:18.000 --> 01:07:20.559
He shouldn't have been driving either. He took an uber there,

1301
01:07:20.840 --> 01:07:22.320
so he knew that he was going to be having

1302
01:07:22.360 --> 01:07:25.639
a good time. But I think drunk driving is a

1303
01:07:25.719 --> 01:07:29.519
really serious offense, and it's something that I take very seriously,

1304
01:07:29.559 --> 01:07:31.360
and I know you do it too, right, And so

1305
01:07:31.639 --> 01:07:33.639
that kind of bothers me that no one's talking about this.

1306
01:07:33.760 --> 01:07:36.159
I have compassion for her, and I don't think she

1307
01:07:36.159 --> 01:07:39.199
should have been convicted, but she was driving and she

1308
01:07:39.360 --> 01:07:41.480
was very drunk, and that is a crime.

1309
01:07:41.679 --> 01:07:44.079
Yeah. I think on the other side of it too,

1310
01:07:44.199 --> 01:07:48.159
when I think about the conspiracy theory or the other

1311
01:07:48.280 --> 01:07:50.679
theory that you know, he was beat up by these guys.

1312
01:07:51.480 --> 01:07:53.880
The thing that I struggle with there is that the

1313
01:07:54.039 --> 01:07:56.280
number of people that would have to be involved in

1314
01:07:56.360 --> 01:07:58.840
that conspiracy theory and covering it up, all the people

1315
01:07:58.880 --> 01:08:02.159
who were at the house, that the paramedics who said

1316
01:08:02.199 --> 01:08:04.800
that she said I hit him or did I hit him?

1317
01:08:05.800 --> 01:08:07.920
All the police officers who would have to be involved

1318
01:08:07.960 --> 01:08:10.760
in that. It just seems it seems hard to imagine

1319
01:08:10.840 --> 01:08:14.800
that many people being willing to lie under oath the.

1320
01:08:15.159 --> 01:08:18.880
Hundred percent, and for like the Alberts, to have their

1321
01:08:19.039 --> 01:08:24.319
children lie on the witness stand under oath and to

1322
01:08:24.439 --> 01:08:27.399
sign an affidavit saying that John hadn't been in the

1323
01:08:27.439 --> 01:08:30.239
house that night. I can't see putting your children in

1324
01:08:30.359 --> 01:08:33.960
that position either, So yeah, I agree, I don't think

1325
01:08:33.960 --> 01:08:36.479
that John entered the home that evening.

1326
01:08:36.680 --> 01:08:40.560
Yeah, I will say that I do totally understand all

1327
01:08:40.680 --> 01:08:43.880
the people who are up in arms and angry about

1328
01:08:44.000 --> 01:08:46.800
the corruption in the police force, because it is blatant

1329
01:08:46.960 --> 01:08:48.319
and it is horrible.

1330
01:08:48.079 --> 01:08:50.840
And I think it's pervasive. And I didn't go into

1331
01:08:50.920 --> 01:08:53.760
great detail, but there has been a lot of problems

1332
01:08:53.880 --> 01:08:57.079
in I mean all over, but Massachusetts has had a

1333
01:08:57.119 --> 01:08:58.239
lot of problems with their police.

1334
01:08:58.520 --> 01:08:59.880
Yeah, I totally totally get that.

1335
01:09:01.640 --> 01:09:03.840
As a woman, and knowing that many people listen to

1336
01:09:03.920 --> 01:09:07.239
our podcast, is incredibly frustrating to see men, especially those

1337
01:09:07.279 --> 01:09:10.000
in positions of power like the police, who are meant

1338
01:09:10.079 --> 01:09:14.239
to protect and respect us, still using degrading and derogatory

1339
01:09:14.359 --> 01:09:18.199
terms for women, dismissing it as locker room talk. This

1340
01:09:18.359 --> 01:09:22.680
behavior is unacceptable, particularly from those who are supposed to

1341
01:09:22.760 --> 01:09:26.319
lead by example. Proctor may be portrayed as an outlier,

1342
01:09:26.359 --> 01:09:30.560
but his actions likely reflect a systemic issue of sexism.

1343
01:09:31.199 --> 01:09:33.520
While I believe that Karen Read is likely guilty of

1344
01:09:33.680 --> 01:09:37.199
accidentally killing John O'Keefe because of her heavy drinking. I

1345
01:09:37.359 --> 01:09:41.319
understand the overwhelming support she has received from women. Women

1346
01:09:41.399 --> 01:09:44.079
need to stand together to fight for equal treatment under

1347
01:09:44.159 --> 01:09:46.800
the law. We must a man better from those in

1348
01:09:46.920 --> 01:09:50.680
power and continue to support each other as women. Well said,

1349
01:09:57.159 --> 01:09:59.319
don't get a big head, because I try really hard

1350
01:09:59.600 --> 01:10:00.840
to keep be humble.

1351
01:10:01.319 --> 01:10:01.520
You do.

1352
01:10:01.720 --> 01:10:03.920
But I am very lucky to have a partner like you.

1353
01:10:04.279 --> 01:10:07.079
Oh thank you. I think we already established in part

1354
01:10:07.159 --> 01:10:08.960
one that I have a big head, as do you

1355
01:10:09.319 --> 01:10:10.319
have both our children.

1356
01:10:11.000 --> 01:10:16.560
Well I didn't meanically, but no, you were an amazing

1357
01:10:16.680 --> 01:10:19.960
man and a great partner, and you are a champion

1358
01:10:20.079 --> 01:10:22.079
not just for me, but for women everywhere.

1359
01:10:22.279 --> 01:10:22.880
Oh thank you.

1360
01:10:23.760 --> 01:10:25.560
Are you going to tell me that I'm a champion

1361
01:10:25.640 --> 01:10:30.800
for all men. I think most men are like champion

1362
01:10:30.880 --> 01:10:31.399
for themselves.

1363
01:10:31.439 --> 01:10:33.079
Funy, yeah, I don't think. I don't think us men

1364
01:10:33.239 --> 01:10:36.119
need anymore champions. I think we're doing all right.

1365
01:10:37.640 --> 01:10:39.279
Well, that was a lot, and if you've made it

1366
01:10:39.359 --> 01:10:41.880
through all three episodes, thank you so much for sticking

1367
01:10:41.960 --> 01:10:45.199
with us. I hope that that was cohesive and made sense.

1368
01:10:45.279 --> 01:10:47.840
This was kind of a tricky case to put together. Yeah,

1369
01:10:48.079 --> 01:10:51.680
a ton of information and very current too very current,

1370
01:10:51.720 --> 01:10:52.439
which is tricky.

1371
01:10:52.800 --> 01:10:54.600
And the fact that there are there are so many

1372
01:10:54.640 --> 01:10:56.359
people out there. We talked about it earlier, but there

1373
01:10:56.399 --> 01:10:58.800
are so many people out there who are so obsessed

1374
01:10:58.840 --> 01:11:02.119
with this case that have done super deep dives and

1375
01:11:02.199 --> 01:11:03.520
we're not able to do that.

1376
01:11:03.760 --> 01:11:06.039
Thank you for making that point. Actually, I didn't want

1377
01:11:06.079 --> 01:11:08.119
to kind of talk about that, like people have devoted.

1378
01:11:08.920 --> 01:11:11.760
I mean, I've probably spent I don't know, eighty hours

1379
01:11:11.800 --> 01:11:14.319
on this case. I don't know, but a lot of time.

1380
01:11:14.319 --> 01:11:16.439
I've worked on it for about three weeks and it's

1381
01:11:16.479 --> 01:11:18.760
been a lot of work. But you know, you just

1382
01:11:18.880 --> 01:11:20.960
can't get to everything, and you want to so bad,

1383
01:11:21.760 --> 01:11:24.600
but we do our best. But you and I both

1384
01:11:24.680 --> 01:11:27.000
tend to be kind of middle of the road people,

1385
01:11:27.119 --> 01:11:29.600
where some people are like, I'm one hundred percent sure

1386
01:11:29.840 --> 01:11:35.039
she's innocent, and we both kind of tend not to be. Yeah, okay,

1387
01:11:35.199 --> 01:11:37.960
say that, but not always like Barry more Few wherever

1388
01:11:38.039 --> 01:11:41.680
you are, God, I know that you are guilty as sin. Yeah,

1389
01:11:42.960 --> 01:11:45.399
you know, in general, we try to reserve our judgment.

1390
01:11:45.479 --> 01:11:48.560
Yeah, for the most part, I'm not sure about anything

1391
01:11:48.600 --> 01:11:52.119
in life. So it's really hard for me to be

1392
01:11:52.239 --> 01:11:54.640
that certain about something, especially when I know that, you know,

1393
01:11:54.720 --> 01:11:56.800
there are a bunch of jurors that sat through what

1394
01:11:57.000 --> 01:12:00.439
thirty some days of trial listening to all this stuff, and.

1395
01:12:00.760 --> 01:12:03.560
You know how crazy thing about being a juror too

1396
01:12:03.720 --> 01:12:07.039
is usually you're allowed to take notes, but you're not.

1397
01:12:07.119 --> 01:12:09.039
I mean, yeah, I think it was thirty five days,

1398
01:12:10.000 --> 01:12:13.960
but you're not allowed to. You can't see all the exhibits,

1399
01:12:14.000 --> 01:12:15.840
you can't see all the pictures. You can only see

1400
01:12:15.960 --> 01:12:18.079
certain things, and a lot of times you have to

1401
01:12:18.359 --> 01:12:20.920
go to the judge and ask to see things again, right,

1402
01:12:21.119 --> 01:12:23.319
So to have to keep it all in your head, Yeah,

1403
01:12:23.359 --> 01:12:26.039
it's really challenging to be a juror, especially in a

1404
01:12:26.119 --> 01:12:26.520
case like this.

1405
01:12:26.680 --> 01:12:26.880
Yeah.

1406
01:12:26.920 --> 01:12:30.680
Absolutely, Before we go, I wanted to give a shout

1407
01:12:30.720 --> 01:12:33.359
out to Patrick. We talked about him earlier in the episode,

1408
01:12:34.079 --> 01:12:36.760
and if you would listen, it was a few episodes

1409
01:12:36.760 --> 01:12:40.479
ago I mentioned that Patrick was my snack consultant. It's

1410
01:12:40.560 --> 01:12:43.640
kind of joking because he and I had been messaging

1411
01:12:43.720 --> 01:12:46.119
each other and he had said, you know, if you want,

1412
01:12:46.199 --> 01:12:48.960
I could do like a cooking thing where I could

1413
01:12:49.039 --> 01:12:52.119
videotape making the recipe or the snack or whatever, and

1414
01:12:52.199 --> 01:12:54.119
so I was kind of joking about that. And after

1415
01:12:54.239 --> 01:12:57.359
that episode aired, he messaged me and he said, did

1416
01:12:57.399 --> 01:13:00.279
you not know that I'm a chef? And I was like, no,

1417
01:13:00.560 --> 01:13:02.960
I didn't actually know that. I mean I worked with

1418
01:13:03.079 --> 01:13:04.279
him and he was like, our.

1419
01:13:04.239 --> 01:13:07.520
Chief technology is a man of all trades.

1420
01:13:07.640 --> 01:13:11.720
Yes, And I knew he had some retail businesses in

1421
01:13:12.079 --> 01:13:15.199
ames Iowa, which is where he lives, and I knew

1422
01:13:15.199 --> 01:13:18.239
they were they were related to like cooking and kitchen

1423
01:13:19.000 --> 01:13:20.920
things like that, but I didn't know he was a chef.

1424
01:13:21.479 --> 01:13:24.560
And he actually has a business called the Recipe Aims.

1425
01:13:24.920 --> 01:13:29.279
So it's the recipe amees dot com And this is

1426
01:13:29.319 --> 01:13:33.399
a business he has. They do like cooking classes and

1427
01:13:33.640 --> 01:13:36.520
a lot of it is online and he does live streams.

1428
01:13:36.600 --> 01:13:40.520
So if you're interested, check out the recipe aims dot com.

1429
01:13:41.079 --> 01:13:42.760
Yeah, definitely, I want to check it out.

1430
01:13:42.920 --> 01:13:43.720
Yeah, it's very cool.

1431
01:13:44.399 --> 01:13:47.479
And again, a huge thank you to our Italian friends

1432
01:13:47.720 --> 01:13:51.000
Sam and Tim for the amazing snacks. That was so fun.

1433
01:13:51.119 --> 01:13:51.479
I love it.

1434
01:13:51.720 --> 01:13:55.359
Thank you so much. Well, thank you again everyone for

1435
01:13:55.560 --> 01:14:00.119
sticking with us. We really appreciate everyone's support. Please rate, review, follow, hello,

1436
01:14:00.239 --> 01:14:03.279
and subscribe. Find us on social media or send us

1437
01:14:03.279 --> 01:14:07.079
an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com, and please

1438
01:14:07.159 --> 01:14:11.319
consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash Lovemrykill one

1439
01:14:11.399 --> 01:14:14.359
tier five dollars a month for early ad free access

1440
01:14:14.840 --> 01:14:16.479
and a monthly bonus episode.

1441
01:14:17.520 --> 01:14:20.560
Until next time, don't kill your husband and don't kill

1442
01:14:20.600 --> 01:14:20.960
your wife.