Kari and Matt Baker - Part 2 of 3

0:00 Hi, I am Rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty. Years of marriage, some days you'll feel like killing your husband, and. Some days you'll feel like killing your wife. Welcome to love, Mary. Kill Hey Tina, Hey Rich? How are you? I'm great? How are you? I'm doing really good. It cracks me up how many times it still takes us to get that open. Sometimes it is surprising we've done it so many times. I'm having some allergies, so my voice cracked a couple of times, and then I.

0:42 Felt a little loopy. I think my voice might be changing. I'm not sure that's what I Yeah, it was a Peter Brady moment. For sure, it's time to change. So I'm a little irritated, are you? Because we're halfway into September and it's still summer. You're ready for fall weather, aren't you? I mean, aren't you? I don't. I don't mind it. I don't mind the sweater. So that's what I guess I should have waited. And that's what made summer come back full horse, was that I bought some sweaters that I really wanted to wear. That probably did it. Yeah, Well, and you're I have to imagine a little disappointed too, because it's Saturday, I am recording and you're not able to put on your you could wear yours.

1:22 I have a lot of great Michigan sweatshirts, you do, and they range from very light sweatshirts to heavy sweatshirts. So I'm prepared for the cooler weather. But when it's hot like this, all I have is this old T shirt and it's yeah. Well, and I the other day purposefully, I was at the mall and I was like, I'm going to stop at the m den, which. Is they sell all the Michigan gear, just. Everything anything you could want with the Michigan logo in it. And we have we shot there all the time, spent a lot of money at them, like we have Christmas ornaments there and just like we send gifts to people from there. And it's gone gone sad sad day in ann. Arbor Briarwood Mall that Christian Longo used to work at. No longer has an m done it. That's crazy to me.

2:05 I could not buy you a new T shirt online. But anyway, so yeah, it's a bumber that we still have summer weather. Yeah, but I'm sure fall and winter will be here before we know it. But it's just a bumber when you know that the fall season might be a little shorter. Yeah, and then we go right to winter. Sometimes, true, we might not have much of a fall. So what do you have for us today? I have some snacks for you, I think there. Yeah, I have multiple snacks. This is going to be good. I did come just for the snacks. I know you usually do. So. I got a message at work a couple of weeks ago from a colleague of mine who I had never met before. And we're a pretty decent sized company, so there's a lot of people I don't know, but. In an international company, yes. We're international. And my colleague messaged me and he said, I just had to reach out because I just found out that my favorite podcaster works at the same company I do. So he was a listener of our podcast, but he didn't know that I worked That.

2:58 Is Wild with him, so it was a favorite podcast. You are well, I mean, everyone rich to Tina. True, A lot of people have made it perfectly clear. But we're gonna move on. Yeah, we should move on. So it was really nice that he reached out and I of course asked him if he had any snack recommendations, and he he said, well, have you ever tried any snacks from India? And I said, well, we love Indian food, but I don't believe we've ever had any snacks from India. He just made a really good Indian recipe last year, really good chicken from half Baked Harvest. It was great. Yeah, it was great. So he sent me some recommendations and I ordered three things. So yeah, Ammonial is the my coworker who gave the recommendations. So yes, I brought.

3:45 I bought three different snacks. One is uh, one is from Lays, but it is made in India, and it is Lay's West Indies hot and sweet chili flavored chips. Oh that sounds interesting. And then I've got these Masala Maruku crunchy spiced rice spirals, all right. And then there's these little hearts Britannia, little hearts that look a little like little heart shaped cookies. So no chocolate, no chocolate. Maybe in part three you'll get some maybe maybe, but should we take a break and try? Yeah? Absolutely, all right, How did you like our Indian snack assortment?

4:28 That was so fun. I love an international snack. I really liked them. I would give the lays, which is kind of funny because here, lays would be they usually don't have ridges, and these are called lays and they have ridges. I know we have lays with ridges, but usually if you buy a bag of las chips here, they're not right. I would give these ten out of ten. Yeah, I love them too. They had a nice little kick to them. Like remind me of the paprika chips that we've gotten a couple of times. But yeah, these are amazing us. Please, I'm sure the lace people are listening. We need just spicier chips in the US. I just think it's a ten too. The Massala spirals, it kind of has the texture of uncooked pasta. Yeah, it's a little crispy for me.

5:14 But I think they're good. Maybe you could dunk. Them and milkirk, yeah, would be good. Yeah, but I think. They're really Those were really good. I'd probably give them a seven out of ten. And the little hearts those, oh my gosh, there's so such a cute little Again, not really anything in the US that has a similar flavor or crunch factor. I guess it looks like a palmy palmier. Yeah, a little bit. That's what it kind of reminded me of. Yeah, just like I would give. That a ten. I'd give that a time out of time. The rice spirals, I would probably go with five out of ten. But you're right, maybe a few DiPT them or something had something with them, it might be better. Yeah, I mean it definitely an interesting texture, which I think Indian food has more, you know, textures and just crunch factors and things like that, but really.

5:59 Inter yeah, yeah, it looks like a I. Don't know, how would you describe it. I mean, it looks a little bit like an onion ring, but it's like like spiral like more. But I liked it just because it was unique. Yeah, definitely unique. How much did you spend on those snacks? It doesn't you don't need to know. You really don't spare like a much sense on the snack sometimes, but it is really we both enjoy that part of it all. It is fun. And thanks thanks again Monial for listening, and thanks for the snack recommendations. So you purchase those snacks from Amazon dot com? No, and you oh no, it was a different company. Well link to them. I will provide a link to where I got them from. Great.

6:39 Well, shall we get back to the story of Carrie and Matt Baker. Yeah, I want to know what happens here. Two more parts for us, so I know a lot must happen. There's a lot, a lot. Before we get into recapping part one, just I'll repeat the content warning from last time. This episode will contain descriptions of sexual assault that may be disturbing for some listeners. Please listen with care. If you haven't listened to part one, you should go back and do that now. But do you want to give us a quick recap? No, I really don't. I would like you too. Matt and Carrie Baker lived in Waco, Texas, home of Chip and Joanna Gaines. Do you know that? Do you know who those people are?

7:21 Matt was a Baptist minister and Carrie was a teacher. She was. Did she teach elementary school and then she went on to be a college professor? She did, but she taught at college one night a week. She was full time elementarily. I think at the I didn't know if she went she's teaching third grade full. Time college professor. Matt is a horrible, horrible, horrible man. Yes, they Matt and got married after dating for only three months. Matt was twenty three and Carrie was twenty at the time, and Matt had a lot of an appropriate sexual conduct with women of different ages. Yes, starting a college, several young women and teenage girls came forward with sexual assault allegations against Matt, and we're talking like ten to fifteen, right.

8:10 It was a lot, and with varying degrees of severity. Matt suffered very few consequences from these accusations, getting fired once, but in general he got off with just a warning and was able to continue on in whatever position he was in at the time. Had a lot of jobs. He worked at a lot of churches and with youth groups. Carrie and Matt had a daughter named Kenzie, followed by another daughter, Cassidy. Shortly after her first birthday, Cassidy was diagnosed with a brain tumor. Cassidy battled for weeks in the hospital before finally being allowed to come home. It seemed like she was on the road to recovery when she surprisingly passed away one night, and Matt had been the last person to check on her. And it was an odd situation because he checked on her twice within ten minutes, and Matt didn't seem to grieve the death of Cassidy at all. He was back to work within a few days. Carrie couldn't understand why he didn't hurt like she did. There was an odd situation in the hospital when he was like hitting on one.

9:13 Of a friend of friend Carrie's cousin. Yeah, he was like, hey, let's just go to one of the rooms in the hospital, which Carrie sought counseling to deal with her grief, and within a year she was able to get back to most of her life activities, and she and Matt soon had another daughter named they named Grace. Matt continued with his pattern of assault and horrible behavior towards women and girls, and he had several jobs. As a seventh anniversary of Cassidy's death approached in the spring of two thousand and six, Matt and Carrey started having more marital issues and financial issues. Around the same time, Matt seemed taken with a twenty three year old Vanessa Bulls, who had started attending his church. I think he was at least ten years older at that time. Yeah, and they're back and forth emails talking about their marital struggles.

10:09 Matt told Carrie that he blamed her and God for Cassidy's death because she had prayed for Cassidy to be free of pain, and he interpreted Cassidy's death as an answer to that prayer. Carrie was shattered by him blaming her and saying other extremely hurtful things. She told her mom that she was thinking of divorcing Matt, but as we'll see, she decided to keep making an effort to fix their broken marriage. The email he sent her that we read near the end of part one, it's just so horrible, Like, basically she was praying for Cassidy to be free of pain and he was like, God answered your prayer by taking her away, which is just a horrible, horrible thing to. Say, just super manipulative, and it just shows how much control he was.

10:52 Yeah, he had in their marriage. And he also talked in the email about how he prayed for her to be well again and go to college and have a family. He was some big hero for making the right prayer and she made the wrong prayer. It's just, yeah, he's just a terrible person. True. We pick up our story on around March twenty eighth, which is about a week and a half before Carrie's death. While Carrie had previously refused to consider the possibility that Matt was having an affair, doubts started to creep in around this time. At some point, Carrie was chatting with Vanessa at church. When Vanessa mentioned something that Matt had said to her on the phone, Carrie asked, why were you talking with Matt. Matt may have been the start of Carrie's suspicions. I think a lot of it also is.

11:38 She said in the different emails to Matt that he had been acting different, that something she could tell something had changed. He wasn't as interested in sex anymore. So I think all these things were adding up in her mind. She did confide her fears with a few close friends during that final week of her life. She even joked flirtatiously with Matt about it in an email exchange on Wednesday, March twenty ninth, the day after they had apparently reconnected physically. I haven't heard from you, so I thought I would say Hi. Maybe you are busy with your girlfriend smiley face, I love you. Yeah, babe, I was hooking up with my girlfriend. By the way, what is her name? Anyway, smiley face, love you very much.

12:21 Well, I thought that maybe you have been learning all those crazy moves you did last night someplace. Ah, smiley face, you. Know it, Smiley face. Tomorrow I'm going to buy to go buy an item or two for Friday. Why was that not enough? I Am going to shock you. And then the next day, he picks up the conversation. I got a couple of needed items, but I will have to get a couple more. I will be ready. What in the world do you have planned? Not gonna tell you, smiley face. You suck five exclamation points. You will like it. Carrie must have been I'm a little sure. Yes, I'm not surprised. Carrie must have been a little bit worried about what Matt had planned, but at the same time she was trying to do whatever it would take to fix her marriage. On that Friday, at school, she asked a good friend and fellow teacher to pray with her. She said that she and Matt had a date that night and she wanted it to go well. She told her friend quote, I hope he doesn't want to tie me up or do something stupid. Unquote.

13:22 A couple of other things happened that week that improved Carrie's mood. First, the school got the results of the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skill Test back. Carrie was ecstatic to learn that every one of her students passed. Second, she heard about a job opening at a middle school that she was very interested in. She emailed the principal, who responded positively, and they set up an interview for the following Friday, April seventh. So Carrie taught third or fourth grade. She was teaching third grade at this point. Yeah. Well, the week had ended on a high note. Starting on Sunday, April second, and going into what would be the final week of her life, things started going downhill again for Carrie. On Sunday, everything seemed fine at church, but that afternoon Carrie called a friend and said she was having a difficult day. In fact, she said she was having panic attacks, feeling her heart racing at times. That night, she wrote in her Bible, which doubled as a journal for Carrie, quote, peace, Lord, grant me peace, calm my soul. I feel like I have so much worry and I can't get a hold on it. Lord be the center of our relationship. And then she wrote, quote, Lord, I am asking you to protect me from harm. I am not sure what is going on with Matt, but Lord helped me find peace with him unquote. And she didn't get any more specific than that, but it sure sounded like she was fearful that Matt was going to harm her. On Monday, April third, Matt took Carrie to her doctor. She told him that she was feeling anxious and asked for a prescription of xanax.

14:53 Why did Matt take her to the doctor. It seems like, you know, if she was just feeling anxiety, she could have taken herself. You know, that's the impression. We talked about it a little bit in Part one, that Matt went everywhere with her, Like if she went to get her hair done, he would go with her. And I think that was just part of his controlling nature. Okay, So Carrie asked her doctor for xanax because her mom had given her one once before and she liked the effect. Instead of writing a prescription for xanax, though the doctor recommended an antidepressant, Carrie said, no, I'm not depressed, I'm anxious. The doctor persisted saying that depression often manifested itself in the form of anxiety. Leaving the doctor's office with her Selexa antidepressant prescription, Carrie was furious that the doctor hadn't listened to her.

15:37 She tore up the prescription on the way out the door. On the way home from her doctor, Carrie called her mom. She told her mom that Matt had stopped at a stop sign and she had opened the door to get some air. She said that Matt grabbed her like he thought she was going to jump from the car. Carrie was laughing about this when she told her mom, but Linda was worried. She told Carrie that she should call joe Anne Bristol, who had counseled Carrie in the year after Cassidy's death. Matt would later tell people that Carrie actually tried to jump out of the car while he was driving fast on the freeway, and that he had saved her by grabbing her arm. Later that afternoon, Carrie called a friend sobbing and told her that she thought Matt was having an affair.

16:20 That Monday night, Carrie was looking for a pen to gread some papers and looked in Matt's briefcase, she saw a small container filled with what looked like some sort of crushed up pills. She asked Matt what it was, and he said sometimes residents at the youth home he worked at would not swallow the pills they were supposed to take, and they would sometimes spit them into his briefcase to take what. It doesn't seem like a very logical explanation, does it. No, I had to read when I read that in Catherine Casey's book, I had to read it like three times. So people would spit pills into his briefcase and then he would he gathered them up and put them into a little jar. It makes no sense.

17:05 That's one of the worst excuses I've ever heard for anything. Yeah, he said he had reported this through the appropriate channel at his work. Wouldn't you just throw the pills away? Oh? I think you have to report it, right, because that would be a serious, a serious issue if people weren't taking their pills at this youth home. But the whole thing, it makes no sense. This explanation made no sense whatsoever. How could the pills be in a powdered form if they had been spit out? Why would they be in a small container. On Tuesday, Matt emailed Carrie to check in. She replied, sorry that I freaked out this morning. I guess my mind is just going crazy. I started thinking about what if this?

17:46 And what if that. Anyway, I am doing better and I am trying really hard to relax. That afternoon, Carrie took her mom's advice and called Joanne Bristol, who said she could see Carrie that afternoon. Carrie hadn't to Joanne in about six years. She started this session by telling Joanne about the good things happening in her life. Carrie was proud that she was down seventeen pounds since starting her diet. She was excited about her job interview coming up on Friday, and she felt like the girls were doing well in school. She also shared her thoughts on helping other parents who had lost children. Then she turned the conversation to her troubles with Matt and the e mail Matt had sent about his feelings regarding Cassidy's death.

18:29 She told Joanne about the incident where she opened the car door, again, claiming that she was just trying to get some air. Joanne asked Carrie if she was feeling it all suicidal, and Carrie said no. She told Joanne about finding the crushed pills in Matt's briefcase. Then she confided her deepest fear, telling Joanne that she thought Matt was planning to kill her. Joanne asked her to repeat what she had just said. Carrie said, quote, I think Matt's having an affair, and I think Matt is planning to kill me. But then, just as suddenly, she backtracked, saying, quote, no, he's not. That's ridiculous. I know better than that. Matt would never do anything like that. He wouldn't. They left it there, with Joanne asking Carrie to call her in a few days to check. In the rest of the week, Carrie seemed to be swinging back and forth. On the one hand, she wanted to make things work with Matt, telling a friend she was trying to be more adventurous in the bedroom. On the other hand, she suspected he was having an affair and was worried about the pills and that he was planning to harm her. She told her friend on Wednesday morning that she was thinking of leaving Matt. She repeated what she had said to Joanne about the pills the concerns she was having about an affair, and that she was frightened he was planning to kill her again. She backtracked right away, saying, I know that's ridiculous.

19:48 I can't imagine if a friend came to me and said that I think my husband's planning on killing me. I mean, yeah, it's just it's unthinkable, shocking. Yeah, it would be shocking for someone to say that, and then, yeah, you wish that someone would have taken some action, but I'm sure everyone was like, you know, no, you're imagining. There's no way. Yeah, Like if we didn't have a true crime podcast and a friend said that to me, I would be like, Sala, you're overreacting, you're being silly. But yeah, it's really it's just really sad. You can tell that all these thoughts were swirling in her head like crazy. Yes, exactly. She was like, I must be losing it because there's no way any of this could be true.

20:31 Trust your gut, ladies. Thursday afternoon, Carrie told a friend things were looking up. She said things between her and Matt were better and they were really trying to work on their relationship. On Friday, April seventh, which would be the last day of Carrie's life. She was nervous and excited about her job interview that afternoon. She called her mom on her way home after the interview, and her mood was a buliant. She told Linda, quote, I rocked. I was so good I slam dunked it. Later, she emailed a friend who worked at the middle school to see if he had gotten any word about how she had done. He replied and said quote, they were blown away and that she was definitely in the running for the job. Carrie stopped at Walmart on her way home.

21:16 There she ran into the parent of one of her students, a woman named Shannon Gamble. Shannon told Carrie how grateful and appreciative she was for all the help that Carrie gave her son. Shannon didn't know Carrie that well, but it was apparent to her how much Carrie loved her son and all of her students. Remember Shannon's name because she will later become a key player in seeking justice for Carrie. Okay, Carrie's happiness that afternoon was short lived. At five fifteen, Carrie and Matt showed up at the y m c A for Kenzie's swim team practice, one of the other moms saw Carrie and noticed that her eyes were red. If she'd been crying, normally, Carrie would have come over to chat with her, but she and Matt went and sat by themselves. The other mom said, you could have cut the tension with the knight. Remind me how old Kensi and Grace are.

22:03 So Kenzie is nine, almost ten, I think she was. Her birthday was in a couple of weeks from this time, and Grace I believe was five. After practice, Matt, Carey and the kids drove to a pizza place, but the wait was too long, so they decided to go through the McDonald's drive through for dinner around six fifteen. Matt later said that all carrieate that evening were two French fries, and then she threw up when they got home. Matt would later say that around eleven PM, Carrie asked him to go and gass up their SUV and pick up a movie at Hollywood Video, When a Man Loves a Woman, which was the movie they saw on their first date. He said that he left the house around eleven fifteen and got back around midnight to find the bedroom door locked. He used a screwdriver to get the door open and found Carrie naked in bed.

22:52 Who leaves to rent a video at eleven fifteen pm. Maybe they're late night people. But they have two young kids. It just seems unlikely. Yeah, it does seem unlikely in any case. When Matt got home, he found the door locked. He used the screwdriver to open it. She was not moving, no response, and I shake her, I call her name, and wow, what do I do? And I put my head to her chest and didn't see a field of chest rising, no no air coming out, felt for pulse. Nothing. Just after midnight, Matt called nine one one. This call is about four minutes long, and there are a couple of fairly long pauses during the call. But I want to play the whole thing so that you can hear Matt, get a feel for those four minutes until the empt has arrived, and kind of get a feel for Matt's behavior, his demeanor.

23:44 Okay, what's the problem to me? Exactly what happened? My wife is laying in the bed and her lifts are blue. Hands are are told and there's a note that says I'm sorry. Basically, while you're there. With her right now, am I'm old she she is? Oh god, she's thirty two? Thirty two? Is she conscious? No, she's breathing. No, no, no, she's not breathing it. All no faulse or anything. Did you see what happened to her? Oh no, I just tried to push. Down on her chests and stuff came out of her nose. No, no, no, no, I do not know shea there de fibulator there? No, okay, I guess it.

24:24 Emails is on the way. Okay, are you outside her right now? Okay? Listen carefully and did you get her a lad flight on her back on the ground and remove any pillows? Okay, okay, put. Her on the floor, correct, on the bed and out put her right. She needs to be on the floor. You're okay? Okay, I will do that and tell me when you're done. Okay, cool one, hey, hold on, old. On, Yes, and I know how to do CPR.

25:11 Oh you do. I'm sorry I start if I to do that. Yeah, okay, I just need to. Make sure that you're doing it correctly. Right. Just look in her mouth, tax surely even fit her vomit. There is fluid all in her nose and in her mouth and just poured out of her. Is it possible to get it all out right now. As far as I know? Okay, so'll go to have a little left if you can blow through it, have a little bit in there. Okay, just go in. Put one hand on the floor of the owner her neck and tilt her head back. Okay, it is okay. Make sure put your next to your mouth and double check. Make sure you can feel it here and you're breathing. There's nothing, there's nothing. Okay. We're gonna go ahead to do compressions first, okay, okay, lit okay. If you have to do compressions, she's to be flat on her back, the heel of your hand on her breast, post of her chest, dropped tmen her nipples, the other hand.

25:52 On top of it. Okay, you're gonna burst pushed down partly two inches of only your lower hand touching her chest. You're gonna do it fast and fart four hundred times. Four hundred. Four hundred times is the latest we've been totally instructed to do. Okay, twice per secondst it all. After the four hundred, it's gonna be about twice per second. I'll think you about three and a half minutes to do it. Okay, so start right now. I'll tell you when to stop. All right. Do you need to let the chest come up all the way between the pumps? Okay, yeah they are Okay. I think she thinks she urinated on herself too. Okay. Smells like kids, water everywhere. Something everywhere. Do I need to go unlock the front door.

26:39 I'll let you know when they start getting closed. Okay, Okay, just keep. Doing compressions that I have two kids in their bedroom, ok and he just is there. I need to get ahold of five parents. They live in town, and I want them to. Come over and be with the kids. Did I remember wouldn't call for him? Yes? You know. So. Their names are Jim and Linda doing the U L I N. Phone number seven seven six h three seven two six. You're still doing compressions. You say, okay, keep doing those up and somebody else started on this. Okay, thank you, thank you, thank you.

27:23 I jump the phone. Oh, she's a phone or something coming out of her net. Okay, someone's at the front door. I gotta go. Okay, go ahead, all right, yes, yes, yeah, in the cool Okay, I can't. Do I still need to be on the phone with you, or can I go there? You can hang up with me, Okay, okay, thank you. Sure. What do you make of that nine? He was so unbothered. I know, he sounded like he was a doctor or a medical professional, like he just does this every day. No, we're not supposed to put too much weight on a person's demeanor when they make a nine to one one call, but he just seemed like very detached and not at all. Yeah, unusually unemotional.

28:10 Yes, for sure. The other thing that I noticed about that call is just he doesn't seem like he's exerting himself at all. So yeah, he seems like he wants to go, Oh I need to go open the door, or oh, I'm going to I need to go make a call. Yeah, it's very strange. Yeah, and carry you're on the phone with nine to one one, they can make a call for you, and they can find a number really easily. So yeah, bizarre. And Carrie, I think she weighed about one hundred and ninety pounds. So he took her from the bed to the floor and then allegedly was doing chest compressions two times a second for that entire time that they were on the call, and he did not seem at all winded. You would be totally, I would be, you know, really exhausted. Yeah, for sure.

28:51 Yeah. It's well, it's emotional, you're exerting yourself. It's and your kids are in the house. You've got to be worried about it. There's a lot going on, ye in your head. Yeah. The EMTs arrived quickly as we as we heard on the call. Matt waved them in and pointed them to the bedroom, where they found Carrie lying on the floor, arms splayed out, wearing a T shirt and panties. They hooked up a portable defibrillator, put a bag valve mask over her nose and mouth, and began compressions. The defib machine read no rhythm, which means there's no heart activity or rhythm, and defibrillating wouldn't help in that circumstance, so they didn't use it. They continued CPR while waiting for the paramedics to arrive. One of the EMTs noticed that Carrie's body was cool and that lividity was starting to form on her hands and back, making him wonder how long Carrie had been unresponsive. Do you want to explain lividity briefly for people who may not know.

29:48 I think everyone knows, but if not, it's just when the blood settles and kind of pulls in one area, and it. Takes time for that to happen after someone dies. It usually I always forget the timeline and is it like one to two hours? I think at least one to two hours. Quick Google tells me that it's anywhere from thirty minutes to four hours. Okay. When the paramedics arrived, they also noticed the lividity and Carrie's arms back in the back of her neck. Her skin was cool, and her pupils were dilated and fixed. They called the doctor overseeing the ambulance shift that night, relayed all the information to him, and he pronounced Carrie dead at twelve seventeen am. Meanwhile, Hewittt police officer Michael Irving showed up and spoke with Matt. Matt told Irving about leaving, gassing up the SEV, picking up the movie, and getting back around midnight to find the door locked.

30:41 He said that while he was on the phone with nine one one, he pulled Carrie from the bed to the floor, put a T shirt and panties on her to preserve her modesty, performed CPR and greeted the Empts at the front door. As they arrived, he showed Officer Irving the note that he found on the nightstand. The note was a print document from the computer. It read, Matt, I am so sorry. I am so tired. I just want to sleep for a while. Please forgive me. Tell Kenzie and Grace that I love them very much. Tell my mom and dad that I love them too. I love you, Matt. I am so sorry for the past few weeks. I want to give Cassidy a hug. I need to feel her again. Please continue to be the great dad to our little girls. Love them every day for me. I am sorry. I love you. Carrie. You look like you might want to say something about that note.

31:33 I'm angry, Yeah, I just yeah. I how many people type a suicide note? Right yeah? That right of right away should have raised some flags. And Carrie was a lovely person. I know she loved her daughters deeply, and her parents were sounded like they were great parents. I don't think she would have been like, oh tell everyone you know, like she will. In the unlikely event that she would have taken her own life. I think she would have addressed I don't know. It's just infuriating it is, And it's interesting also that she chose to give Matt compliments in her note as well, like you're a great dad, and you know you're a great guy. Just continued being a great guy, Matt very true.

32:20 Looking at the nightstand, officer Irving saw beside the note a unism container with two pills remaining in it. Matt said that Carrie took one every night, but he didn't know how many had been left in the container. Also, Matt said that they had had a few drinks that night and there were two empty bottles of Bartle's and James Fuzzy Naval Wine coolers on the night stay. Now when I thought it too, I was like, oh wow, I remember Bartles and James. Matt said that he thought Carrie drank just two. Irving asked Matt whether Carrie had ever attempted suicide before. He said no, but that she had talked about it. He explained that Carrie had been upset ever since their second daughter died seven years ago, and that she had been especially depressed and talked of suicide in the past couple of weeks. We'll be back after a break.

33:15 Before we jump back into the case, I just wanted to mention that Bartle's and James is still being produced there. Yeah. I think they might have gone off the market for a while, but in recent years, probably the last I don't know five years or so, when like white claws and things like that became more common, I think that they probably jumped back into the market. Yeah, because they were kind of the original. I was going to say they were like the original, Like I don't want to drink beer. I don't want to drink mixed drinks or hard liquor, so yeah, get a wine cooler. I am devastated by Carrie's death. She seemed like an amazing woman. Yeah, she really did. It's so sad. It's just such a piece of it's just a horrible person.

33:57 After Carrie was pronounced Dad, Officer Irvin called into the Hewett Police Department and informed the investigator on duty that night of the situation. The investigator then called William Billy Martin, who was a local Justice of the peace. In most counties in Texas, a justice of the peace determines the cause and manner of death and determines whether an autopsy is deemed necessary. I did not know that. That's interesting. It is. Yeah, I was thought a justice of the peace just married people. Jpas are either elected or appointed and don't need to have any special qualifications to do the job, although they are given some training. Once they assume the. Role, they kind of like I get the impression there, sort of like a judge, but not quite like a full judge.

34:42 Okay, that makes sense. The investigator on duty related all the information he had to Billy Martin, seeing the suicide note the near empty unison bottle, the wine cooler bottles, and what her husband said about the loss of their child and carries depression and talk of suicide. Martin asked a few questions, like were there any stab or gunshot wounds on her body? There weren't. Martin decided there was no need to leave the house and the wee hours of the morning and look at the scene himself. He'd heard everything he needed to hear. He ruled the death of suicide over the phone and no autopsy was needed. The case was closed only about an hour after the authorities had arrived on the scene.

35:25 Isn't just the first of many things that are going to make you really angry. In this episode, an officer arrived on the scene to take photos. Normally, even if a suicide is suspected, dozens, if not hundreds, of photos are taken, documenting every aspect of the scene for whatever reason, though in this case, the photographer only took eight photos. Oh my gosh. Three of them wore of Carrie's body, and the other five showed different angles of the bedroom, the nightstand, in close ups of the unison bottle. The nine one one dispatcher had called Linda and Jim, telling them that there was an emergency at their daughter's home and they needed to get there. They called Matt on the way over, asking what had happened. Matt told them Carrie was dead. She had died by suicide. He said. Linda couldn't comprehend this.

36:14 She had spoken with Carrie that afternoon and she had seemed so happy. Linda called her sister Kay, who called their other sister Nancy, who then called her daughter Lindsay. Lindsay immediately said Carrie didn't kill herself, Matt killed her. I remember from the first episode, Lindsay is like one of her best friends. She was but she was yeah, pretty much her best friend like a sister. Nancy had the same gut reaction, but she told Lindsay not to worry. The police would figure it out. She said, the autopsy will give us answers. Little did they know there would be no autopsy. What's so frustrating. Kay called her friend joe Ane Bristol to break the news to her. Joe Anne told Kay that she had seen Carrie just a few days earlier and asked how she had died.

36:59 Said it was an overdose. Joanne told her about Carrie finding the crushed pills and Matt's briefcase, and her fears that Matt was planning to kill her. Kay said, but Carrie left a suicide note. None of the family knew at that point that the note had been printed from a computer document, not handwritten. Because of that, and because both women assumed there would be an autopsy, they decided there was no reason for Joanne to tell the police what she knew. Just yet, Linda showed up at the house screaming, what happened to my cousin? What happened to Carrie? She asked an officer to see the suicide note, but he refused, saying it was evidence. Linda begged them, saying she wanted to see her daughter's final words. The officer relented and showed Linda the note, briefly letting her view it through a clear plastic evidence bag. Lindsay read it over her shoulder and was more convinced that Carrie hadn't died by suicide. For one thing, the note would have been longer. Carrie would have mentioned a lot of different people.

38:00 One notable absence was any mention of Carrie's brother, Adam. Lindsay felt sure that Carrie would at least have mentioned Adam. That's interesting you actually picked up on that after we read the suicide note. That Carrie was the kind of person who had a lot of people. She loved a lot of friends and family, and she would she would have mentioned other people. Was the note wasn't signed either? I'm guessing no, it wasn't signed. At one thirty four am, a hearst pulled up to take Carrie's body to the mortuary for embalming, but none of Carrie's families knew that. They assumed the body was being taken in for an autopsy. Eventually, Matt was alone at the house with Linda and Jim. The girls were still sleeping and the other family members had gone home. Matt repeated his account of the night's events to Linda and Jim. He said Carrie probably bought the unisum at Walmart on her way home from her job interview.

38:50 Linda thought that was odd because she knew Carrie always bought the generic version of the sleep aid. Another thing Linda thought was odd she went into the bedroom with Matt I noticed that there were no wet spots on the bed or the floor, despite Matt having said that Carrie had fluid coming out of her nose and mouth and saying that she had urinated. Matt told her he had cleaned up, but Lenna thought, when would he have done that. The police had just left, and he certainly hadn't gone in and cleaned the bedroom while they were still examining the scene. The next day, Carrie's family members who had been there that night realized that the police never asked them any questions. Carrie's par family they must have been just irate at the way this situation was handled.

39:34 Yeah, it was really it was really poorly handled. Matt was in a rush to have Carrie's funeral on Saturday morning, just a few hours after Carrie had been declared dead, he announced that her funeral would be the next day, on Sunday. Jim and Linda were stunned. They begged Matt to hold off for at least today. People had to be notified and plans had to be made. Some people would be traveling from out of town. Finally, Matt relented a yet reluctantly, and the funeral was set for Monday. So Carrie she was not cremated. She was not cremated, she was embalmed. At the visitation, Nancy, Kay and Lindsay discovered that the Justice at the Peace had not ordered an autopsy and Carrie's body had already been embalmed. They talked about what they could do. They wanted to talk to Linda about their suspicions, but they decided the time wasn't right. When Joeanne Bristol showed up for the visitation and greeted Matt, he asked her point blank whether Carrie had told her that she thought Matt was planning to kill her, and whether she told her that she thought he was having an affair. Joanne said yes, Carrie had said both of those things to her.

40:43 That's a shocking conversation, isn't it. I just can't. I have to imagine Carrie must have said something to Matt about talking to Joanne about her suspicions or something, because or. He was just paranoid because he knew that he had done something horrible to his wife. Was Joanne breaking patient confidentiality? You know? I had that same thought when I was researching this case as well. The only thing I can think is that Joanne decided that what Carrie had told her was important enough that she had to tell people about it. But yeah, I wondered the same thing. What does that expire after a person dies? I would imagine that if you think there are suspicious circumstances around someone's death that you are able to break that confidentiality, you look into that and be sure.

41:31 Yeah. Steve Saldor was the pastor who officiated Carrie's funeral. He visited with the family and he left with Carrie's Bible, the one that doubled as a journal for her. He saw the entry dated less than a week before her death, where she wrote, quote, Lord, I am asking you to protect me from harm. I'm not sure what is going on with Matt, but Lord helped me find peace with it. End quote. Sailor didn't turn this over to police, but he must have found it alarming enough that he made a copy of it to keep. At the funeral, Matt assured members of his congregation at Crossroads that he would be back to work that coming Sunday. People noticed that Matt didn't seem to show any emotion during the whole process.

42:13 Matt's mom, Barbara later explained, quote, I saw Matt reacting like i'd react. We're not the type to break down and cry. Crying and screaming and wringing her hands is not who we are. If people judged on how he reacted, I can't do anything about that. After the funeral, Nancy, Kay and Linda got together to talk about the situation. They realized they should have raised their suspicions with the police much sooner. At this point, the scene had been cleaned thoroughly by Matt and his mom. They had even rearranged the furniture in the bedroom. Carrie's body had been embalmed and buried, and the death certificate was soon printed, listing the cause of death as an overdose of unisom and the manner of death as suicide.

42:56 Lindsay called the Poison Control Center and asked about overdose on unism. The person she spoke to said she wasn't sure if it was even possible to die from that. Further research showed that it is possible, but it's pretty rare, and if someone does die by overdosing on unism, it's a long drawn out process, not something that could possibly happen in forty five minutes. It's crazy that Lindsay had to investigate the death of Carrie. Oh, they're going to have to do a lot more investigating as well. They decided that the best thing to do would be to ask Joeanne Bristol to talk to the police and tell them what Carrie had told her. Three days before she died. Joanne called Sergeant Cooper, the investigator in charge, who didn't seem to be taking her seriously. Frustrated, Joanne said, quote, what are you waiting for for Matt Baker to marry and kill a second wife? Unquote? Following that call, Kay also called Sergeant Cooper. It was clear to her that he didn't have any intention of doing any further investigation, the case was closed, Nancy Kay and Lindsay became more so that Matt had something to do with Carrie's death, but at the same time, they worried that maybe their judgment was clouded due to their dislike of Matt. They decided they needed to talk to Linda and tell her of their suspicions. They knew it would be hard because Linda had been sheltered from hearing about a lot of the accusations against Matt and the bad behavior that many in the family had witnessed. At this point, Linda didn't have any reason to believe anything other than that Carrie had died by suicide. Meanwhile, Matt seemed to

44:30 be moving on with his life. Shortly after Carrie's death, Linda urged Matt to take the girls in for grief counseling, but Matt insisted that they were fine. Linda regularly called Carrie's cell phone in the days following her death, just to hear her voice on her outgoing message. She was surprised when Matt deleted the outgoing message and replaced it with his own. Just a few days after she died, Matt returned to work at Waco Center for Youth on Wednesday, just five days after Carrie's death. Everyone was surprised to see him. When they offered their condolences, he would say things to them like, I'm fine. It wasn't a marriage anyway. Carrie was depressed, so we were just coexisting. He told people that Carrie was a bad mother and wife, and now that she was gone, the girls were happier. You know, I'm sorry when you thought you couldn't hate this man anymore.

45:23 I mean, if you could see my facial I'm just stunned at the audacity and horribleness of this. I know, it's just it is so shocking. Matt also adopted a new look. He started using gel to make his hair spikier and started wearing new, younger looking clothes. On Good Friday, exactly one week after Carrie passed away, a friend of Carrie's ran into Matt at the grocery store. He was there with a pretty young blonde woman and a little blonde baby girl. In case you don't remember from part one, we talked about Vanessa Bowles, who had a one year old baby girl. Oh that's right, I thought that you were going to say that this was Matt's no, No No.

46:05 The following week, Matt brought the girls over to see Linda and Jim. He told them he realized that Carrie had been suicidal for a long time, and now he realized that he had missed the signs. He told them things like Carrie would spend hours in her bedroom, unable to cope when she got home from work, and that she had stopped taking care of the girls, leaving it all to Matt. Linda knew these things weren't true, and she couldn't understand why Matt was saying them. When she brought up counseling for the girls again, Matt said they had already moved on two weeks. Kenzie was happy that she could jump on the bed now without Mommy getting mad at her, and Grace was already looking for a new mother. I'm sorry, I'm laughing, but your your face just.

46:47 Everything we say, like, I'm almost like I almost want to cry because it makes me so mad. Because Carrie obviously was a wonderful mother and loved her girls, and like the worst thing that you could do, you not only kill her, want to like make her look bad to everyone, and you allegedly are a man of God, who preaches in front of people, you know, every Sunday to how to live their life and how to have God in your lives, and clearly he has. It's so shocking how horrible this man is and saying something like Grace was already looking for a new mother like less than two weeks after her mom died. That's just it's disgusting. After that conversation, Linda asked her husband Jim to go to the police station and read the suicide note again. She wanted him to assess whether he thought Carrie had written it. He went to the police station, read the letter and told Linda that yes, he believed it sounded like Carrie. So Linda decided to put her concerns to rest and focus on grieving. There were many sightings of Matt with Vanessa Bowles in the days and weeks following Carrie's death. Kenzie's tenth birthday was just two weeks after her mother's death, and Matt planned a party for her. He rented a limo to pick Kenzie and her friends up at school, then drove them to her house for a slumber party. When the limo showed up at school, everyone gathered around to see the car pull up.

48:07 The teachers at the school found it strange that Matt got out of the limo with a young blonde woman and even posed for pictures with his arm around Vanessa. So Vanessa must not be the nicest woman either. Yeah, we'll learn more about Vanessa, but yeah. One of Carrie's friends had volunteered to help Matt with the party. When she got to the house, she noticed that there were no longer any pictures of Carrie around the house. Not only that, but on the fridge was a picture of Vanessa, her daughter, and Kenzie and Grace. Around two am, the girls were all watching a movie and Carrie's friend walked into the living room to see Matt sitting on the couch and Vanessa lying down resting her head in Matt's lap. This was too much for her, and she abruptly left the party. When parents arrived the next morning to pick up their kids, they were greeted at the door by Matt and Vanessa. Rumors started spreading around the small town of Hewittt. Those rumors heated up even more when Matt and Vanessa stopped into k Jewelers looking at engagement right. The woman who worked at the store recognized Matt from attending one of his churches, so this is two weeks. I don't know the exact date they were at K Jewelers, but it was not long after Carrie's death.

49:20 Nancy, Kay and Lindsay finally called Linda two weeks after Carrie's death and told her they needed to come and talk to her. They told Linda about all of Matt's inappropriate behaviors that they had seen or heard about over the years, and they told her about what Joanne Bristol had said. Linda didn't want to hear it. She became angry and told them to drop it. They said, okay, consider it dropped. As the women were leaving, they chatted briefly outside by their cars. Lindsay said, are we going to drop it? Kay said no, absolutely not. It didn't take long for Linda and Jim to realize that Matt was starting to put up barriers between them and their granddaughters. Get togethers were canceled, excuses made, and not only that, but when they did get together, Kenzie started acting out and being unkind to her grandparents, aunts, and uncles. It was clear that Matt had been saying things to turn them against the Doolan family. Kay sent Matt a nice email, beseeching him to remember that the Dulans loved their granddaughters and wanted to be part of their lives. Matt responded with a diatribe saying the Dulans needed to come to terms with Carrie's death. He also said on the email that Carrie had been a bad wife and uninvolved as a mother.

50:32 What a nice thing to say to the relatives of your wife who has died. Kay showed the email to her sister, Linda, who was aghast same Linda. Linda started hearing things about Matt from other people. She heard that Matt was telling people that Carrie's interview on the last day of her life hadn't gone well. Linda knew that it had, she had spoken with her daughter right after the interview. Also, people were reporting sightings of Matt with Vanessa acting giddy like a schoolboy with a crush. All of these things made Linda start believing that maybe her sisters and niece were onto something with their suspicions. On Mother's Day two thousand and six, the girls were over visiting Linda and Jim. It didn't go well. Kenzie accused her grandma of being mean to her daddy. She said that she and Grace really liked Vanessa, but that Linda and Jim didn't like her. The next day, Matt sat Linda an email accusing her of physically yanking Kenzie by the arm and hurting her. That would be the last time he would voluntary allow the girls to see their maternal grandparents. He even stopped having them attend to his Sunday service to ensure the girls didn't see their grandparents even then. This guy is unbelievable. Three weeks after Mother's Day, Matt sent an email to Linda and Jim informing them that Kensie and Grace wouldn't be seeing them that summer for any extended period. He had decided it would not be in their best interests. Linda and Jim decided to sue for visitation. Three days later, their

52:03 attorney filed a petition for visitation and court ordered counseling for the girls. Good for them. A couple of weeks later, an agreement was reached where Linda and Jim would have Kensie and Grace two Sundays and one Saturday a month, in addition to some weekends during the summer, Matt agreed to get counseling for the girls, but both parties were prohibited from making disparaging remarks about the other. One day, Linda got her AT and T bill and was reminded that she had added Matt and Carrey's cell phones to their family plan. I remember you telling us to put a pin in that. She was angry at Matt about everything that was going on, so she told her niece Lindsay that she was going to cancel Matt's account. Lindsay said, I have a better idea. Get the phone records and look through Matt's calls. I bet you'll find some interesting things.

52:54 I like this, Lindsay, I. Like all of these women are just they're heroic. Linda called AT and T and asked if they could see a report of all the phone calls from Matt's phone over the past few months. It's so genius. I love it. They said, sure, it's on your account, so you're entitled to see all the records. The AT and T rep said they would mail a report, but that Linda could also view it online and instructed her how to do it. After getting off the call, Linda pulled up the data online, and she saw there was a number that Matt called frequently, starting about three months before Carrie died. A quick Internet search showed that the number belonged to Larry Bowles, the music minister from Matt's church and father of Vanessa Bulls, who also happened to live at home with her parents. Looking at the call records, Linda saw something else that was strange. Starting within days after Carrie's death, Matt was still calling Carrie's phone and spending a lot of time on calls to her phone that is strange. From April seventeen through the twenty sixth, he had called Carrie's number one hundred eighty one time times and talked for a total of one thy, six hundred and ten minutes. The only explanation that made any sense was that Matt had given Carrie's phone to someone else.

54:09 Vanessa maybe turned out that that was the case. Unfortunately, AT and T somehow mistakenly mailed a report to Matt's address, which must have tipped him off that Linda was having suspicions. Linda soon heard from a friend who spotted Matt and Vanessa out shopping for new cell phones. Her suspicions growing. Linda met with Joanne Bristol, who repeated the same story about Carrie's final session with her, her fears that Matt was planning to kill her, and the crushed up pills in Matt's briefcase. She told Linda that Carrie had been excited about her new job prospect and her epiphany about finding a way to help other parents who had lost children. That was enough for Linda. She was finally convinced that Carrie's death was suspicious and needed to be investigated. If the police weren't going to do it, she and her sisters and niece would have to take matters into their own hands. Oh, this is making me emotional, Like these you know, these women are just heroes.

55:10 And that's the part about the case that makes me really emotional too, is. They just they shouldn't have to do it. But getting justice for your loved one. It's just very it's heartwarming. Yeah. Linda called Nancy, Kay and Lindsay back together to talk about next steps. The women started referring to themselves as Charlie's angels. Linda was Charlie, while Nancy Kay and Lindsay were the angels. They staked out Matt's house to see if Vanessa was there. They called other numbers from Matt's phone bill and discovered that he had been talking to a realtor about buying a new house. They did more research on unison, finding that it was virtually impossible for someone to die of an overdose within forty five minutes.

55:51 They went to Hollywood Video to confirm that Matt came in that night. The manager shared with them that Matt had indeed rented When a Man Loves a Woman at eleven forty eight pm that night. He wouldn't show them the surveillance footage, but he agreed to ensure that it didn't get deleted in case the police came looking for it. Kay called Billy Martin, the Justice of the peace, who had closed the case that night without ever examining the scene or speaking with anyone other than the investigator on duty. Kay asked him why an autopsy had not been ordered. Martin said that it was because of the suicide note. When Kay told him that the note was typed with no signature, Martin seemed surprised he had assumed that it was handwritten. Kay shared some of their other suspicions, and Martin promised to call the Hewitt Police department that day to see if he could get the investigation reopened. It's not clear whether Billy Martin made that call or not, but Charlie's angels weren't about to let the matter rest.

56:48 They chased down the Hewitt Police over the next couple of days and told them about their call with Billy Martin. Sergeant Cooper asked for Joanne Bristol's number, saying he would call her to get her account of her session with Carrie. When he still hadn't called her by the next day, the women decided that it was time to meet personally with Sergeant Cooper. Kay and Jim went to the station the next day, bringing all of the notes that they had accumulated, including copies of the phone bill showing that Matt had been calling Vanessa for months before Carrie's death. Kay pushed Sergeant Cooper to get Carrie's body exoomed and to perform an autopsy. Cooper said a judge would need to order that. Kay also pushed for Cooper to speak with Joanne Bristol, although Cooper said it wasn't necessary. Kay called Joanne, who showed up at the police station that afternoon with seven pages of notes that she had taken at Carrie's last session. It still didn't feel like Cooper was taking them seriously, so Linda composed a long letter to him, which Jim hand delivered, suggesting some logical next steps.

57:50 Linda suggested getting the surveillance footage from Hollywood Video, checking Matt's bank records to confirm that he had purchased gas that night, and pushing for an autopsy and toxicology report. Can you imagine the sergeant getting this letter from a civilian basically saying, here's what I suggest you do in the investigation. I'm sure he did not take kindly to that. Well, they should have done it. Initially thought that, yeah, they are totally in the wrong here with how they investigated it. Although Linda and the rest of the family believed that Cooper wasn't doing anything, he did in fact follow up on at least some of the information. He stopped by the Waco Center for Youth and talked to the director about the pills in Matt's briefcase and his story that residents had spit the pills out. The director said there was no record of Matt reporting anything about this. If that had been happening, it would be a big deal, and there were controls in place to ensure that residents took their meds. As May drew to a close, the Dulns were growing increasingly frustrated not hearing anything and not making any progress on exhumation. Every day that went by made it more likely that evidence would be lost. Linda spoke with a friend who suggested that she contact the Texas Rangers for help. The Texas Rangers are essentially like the FBI, but just for the state of Texas. They have statewide jurisdiction, but they generally don't get involved in cases unless they're invited to help by local law enforcement.

59:19 Linda was put in touch with a ranger named Matt Coffin. He listened carefully as Linda went through her whole story. He seemed sympathetic and wanted to help, but he advised Linda that they needed to go through the proper channels. First, she needed to speak with the detective in charge, then escalate to the chief of the Hewitt Police Department. If you're not getting help, he said, then write a letter to the DA and ask him to request assistance from the Texas Rangers. On May twenty sixth, Jim and Linda went back to the Hewitt Police Department for another conference with Sergeant Cooper. They asked if there had been any progress on getting Carrie's body exzoomed, and Cooper said, sorry, we don't have probable cause, so the judge won't go for it. Linda got frustrated and said, I want to talk with your boss. Cooper's captain joined the discussion, and Cooper eventually admitted that he had never actually spoken with Judge Martin about exhamation or an autopsy. Flabbergasted, Linda fired back, quote, you told us you were trying to get an autopsy and the judge was resisting. So, Sergeant, which one is it, Billy Martin won't exume my daughter's body or you haven't even talked to him. Get your story straight. Unquote. Cooper, who was probably not accustomed to being interrogated himself, stomped out of the room in anger, leaving his captain with Jim and Linda. Linda then demanded a meeting with the Chief of police today. They got their meeting that afternoon, but Chief Barton said they were wasting his time rehashing things that they had already discussed with Sergeant Cooper, who

1:00:50 was in charge of the case. He was clearly going to back his detective, regardless of what evidence Linda and Jim brought forth. After Linda and Jim left the place Least station that day, someone who worked at the police station later reported seeing Chief Barton stomping around the station and overheard him say, quote that bitch killed herself and our parents are fucking crazy unquote. The next step was to write a letter to the McClellan County DA John Segrist. Linda sent the letter on June second, requesting that Segrist call in the Texas Rangers to take over ownership of the investigation. Secrist replied soon after, expressing his sympathies but making it clear that he was not going to help.

1:01:32 The letter concluded, quote, my office is not involved and won't become involved in the inquiry at this stage. Unquote. Your blood pressure at a dangerous. Level now, I mean, all they want is justice for their daughter, and. Really all they want an investigation. They weren't even they weren't even saying that Matt killed her. They were saying, we just want to know for sure what happened, and they weren't getting answers, and they weren't getting any help. It's just so frustrating. Absolutely, I think that is where we are going to end part two. What the quest for justice will continue in part three.

1:02:22 During snack time, when you gave the little hearts, I believe I said, oh, they're like Paulmiers and this will haunt me for the next seven or eight years. Yes, I should have said, Paulmier. I know you and very uncouth. I know you've been thinking about nothing but that for the last hour half. I mean I did listen. I know to your case. You did a good job. I know it's quite a story there. Yeah, I know how you do get haunted. I'm the same way. I mispronounced something. I can't stop thinking about it. Mispronounce things all the time and it's okay, but there's always something every episode. But it's usually like, oh, I was going to talk about this, like Shenan Watts's dog.

1:03:04 That one still haunts me that I didn't mention it during the case. But yeah, I think we just forget about things that we want to talk about. We do well. Speaking of snacks, I had an interesting little tidbit. When I was researching snacks from Texas to try to find something I had. I did not know this, and I'd be I'd appreciate it if one of our listeners from Texas could verify this. But did you know that people in Texas when they go to the movie theater they eat pickles at the movie theater? Really, that's so funny. Apparently it is a very common thing that people order pickles. That they're called movie theater pickles is what they're referred to. And and is it just like a whole It's just a whole. Big pickle. It used to be they would be in a container and they would take them out with like tongs, but now they're usually, I guess, come in bags. But the other interesting thing that I saw in this article was that people in Texas are surprised that no one else does this. They if they move to another state, they'll go to the movie theater and they'll be like, okay, I get a pickle, and the people the movie there will be like, what are you insane? And some people even put it in their popcorn and they refer to that as a popcorn pickle, much like we would put Eminem's or sour Patch Kids in our popcorn.

1:04:15 Well, that's funny. When you said that, I was like, you know, a dill flavored popcorn might be good, but when a pickle make your popcorn soggy? Or is it just to get the pickle juice on the popcorn to make it a little. I don't know. I couldn't tell you, but yeah, it's very strange. As someone who does not like pickles. That's not appeal to me at all. But I don't know. I love pickles. Yeah maybe you would. I don't like like a hole like I wouldn't chop down on a whole pickle, but I like the dill chips or you know, a spear. But yeah, you hate a pickle. Well, I don't mind sweet pickles. I actually kind of like sweet pickles. That's funny because I hate right. I don't know how we've made it for so long. I know, I know it's crazy.

1:04:56 Well, if you can't wait to hear how this case ends, you can join us on patreon dot com slash Love Marykill or five dollars a month for early ad free access and typically when we have multi part episodes, those are available immediately or soon after, and. Thank you all for listening. You can find us on social media, send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com. We love to hear. From you and thank you all so much for your support, your continued support and encouragement. It means the world to us. Until next time, don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife. I am rich, I am rich. And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of.

1:06:26 Marriage, some days you're going to feel like carrying yours. Some days your wife is a little loopy.