Sept. 23, 2024

Kari and Matt Baker - Part 2 of 3

Kari and Matt Baker - Part 2 of 3
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Matt and Kari Baker seemed like the perfect couple with the perfect family. Living near Waco, Texas, Matt was a Baptist minister and Kari was a third grade teacher. They were raising two beautiful daughters, Kensi and Grace. But Kari’s family and friends knew that she had struggled. Seven years earlier, she and Matt had lost another daughter, Kassidy, soon after her first birthday. When Kari died in April 2006, her death was quickly ruled a suicide. But, Kari’s family and friends had a hard time accepting that conclusion. They saw someone who was a fighter and would do anything to be there for her daughters. They were determined to find out the truth, no matter how long it would take or how difficult it would be.

Today's snacks: Lay's West Indies Hot n' Sweet Chilli Chips, Masala Murukku, and Britannia Little Hearts

Listen to all three parts on Patreon now.

WEBVTT

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Hi, I am Rich and I'm Tina.

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And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty.

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Years of marriage, some days you'll feel like killing your husband, and.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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Welcome to love, Mary.

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Kill Hey Tina, Hey Rich?

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How are you?

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I'm great? How are you?

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I'm doing really good.

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It cracks me up how many times it still takes

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us to get that open.

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Sometimes it is surprising we've done it so many times.

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I'm having some allergies, so my voice cracked a couple

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of times, and then I.

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Felt a little loopy. I think my voice might be changing.

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I'm not sure that's what I Yeah, it was a

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Peter Brady moment.

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For sure, it's time to change.

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So I'm a little irritated, are you? Because we're halfway

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into September and it's still summer.

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You're ready for fall weather, aren't you?

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I mean, aren't you?

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I don't. I don't mind it.

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I don't mind the sweater. So that's what I guess

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I should have waited. And that's what made summer come

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back full horse, was that I bought some sweaters that

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I really wanted to wear.

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That probably did it.

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Yeah, Well, and you're I have to imagine a little

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disappointed too, because it's Saturday, I am recording and you're

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not able to put on your you could wear yours.

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I have a lot of great Michigan sweatshirts, you do,

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and they range from very light sweatshirts to heavy sweatshirts.

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So I'm prepared for the cooler weather. But when it's

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hot like this, all I have is this old T

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shirt and it's yeah.

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Well, and I the other day purposefully, I was at

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the mall and I was like, I'm going to stop

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at the m den, which.

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Is they sell all the Michigan gear, just.

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Everything anything you could want with the Michigan logo in it.

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And we have we shot there all the time, spent

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a lot of money at them, like we have Christmas

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ornaments there and just like we send gifts to people

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from there.

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And it's gone gone sad sad day in ann.

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Arbor Briarwood Mall that Christian Longo used to work at.

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No longer has an m done it. That's crazy to me.

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I could not buy you a new T shirt online.

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But anyway, so yeah, it's a bumber that we still

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have summer weather. Yeah, but I'm sure fall and winter

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will be here before we know it. But it's just

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a bumber when you know that the fall season might

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be a little shorter. Yeah, and then we go right

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to winter.

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Sometimes, true, we might not have much of a fall.

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So what do you have for us today?

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I have some snacks for you, I think there. Yeah,

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I have multiple snacks. This is going to be good.

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I did come just for the snacks.

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I know you usually do.

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So.

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I got a message at work a couple of weeks

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ago from a colleague of mine who I had never

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met before. And we're a pretty decent sized company, so

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there's a lot of people I don't know, but.

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In an international company, yes.

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We're international. And my colleague messaged me and he said,

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I just had to reach out because I just found

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out that my favorite podcaster works at the same company

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I do. So he was a listener of our podcast,

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but he didn't know that I worked That.

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Is Wild with him, so it was a favorite podcast.

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You are well, I mean, everyone rich to Tina. True,

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A lot of people have made it perfectly clear. But

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we're gonna move on.

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Yeah, we should move on. So it was really nice

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that he reached out and I of course asked him

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if he had any snack recommendations, and he he said, well,

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have you ever tried any snacks from India? And I said, well,

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we love Indian food, but I don't believe we've ever

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had any snacks from India.

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He just made a really good Indian recipe last year,

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really good chicken from half Baked Harvest. It was great.

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Yeah, it was great. So he sent me some recommendations

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and I ordered three things. So yeah, Ammonial is the

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my coworker who gave the recommendations. So yes, I brought.

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I bought three different snacks. One is uh, one is

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from Lays, but it is made in India, and it

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is Lay's West Indies hot and sweet chili flavored chips.

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Oh that sounds interesting.

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And then I've got these Masala Maruku crunchy spiced rice spirals,

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all right. And then there's these little hearts Britannia, little

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hearts that look a little like little heart shaped cookies.

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So no chocolate, no chocolate.

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Maybe in part three you'll get some maybe maybe, but

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should we take a break and try?

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Yeah?

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Absolutely, all right, How did you like our Indian snack assortment?

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That was so fun. I love an international snack. I

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really liked them. I would give the lays, which is

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kind of funny because here, lays would be they usually

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don't have ridges, and these are called lays and they

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have ridges. I know we have lays with ridges, but

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usually if you buy a bag of las chips here,

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they're not right. I would give these ten out of ten.

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Yeah, I love them too. They had a nice little

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kick to them.

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Like remind me of the paprika chips that we've gotten

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a couple of times. But yeah, these are amazing us. Please,

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I'm sure the lace people are listening. We need just

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spicier chips in the US. I just think it's a

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ten too. The Massala spirals, it kind of has the

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texture of uncooked pasta. Yeah, it's a little crispy for me.

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But I think they're good. Maybe you could dunk.

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Them and milkirk, yeah, would be good. Yeah, but I think.

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They're really Those were really good. I'd probably give them

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a seven out of ten. And the little hearts those,

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oh my gosh, there's so such a cute little Again,

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not really anything in the US that has a similar

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flavor or crunch factor. I guess it looks like a

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palmy palmier.

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Yeah, a little bit. That's what it kind of reminded

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me of.

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Yeah, just like I would give.

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That a ten.

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I'd give that a time out of time. The rice spirals,

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I would probably go with five out of ten. But

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you're right, maybe a few DiPT them or something had

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something with them, it might be better.

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Yeah, I mean it definitely an interesting texture, which I

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think Indian food has more, you know, textures and just

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crunch factors and things like that, but really.

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Inter yeah, yeah, it looks like a I.

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Don't know, how would you describe it.

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I mean, it looks a little bit like an onion ring,

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but it's like like spiral like more.

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But I liked it just because it was unique.

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Yeah, definitely unique.

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How much did you spend on those snacks?

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It doesn't you don't need to know.

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You really don't spare like a much sense on the

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snack sometimes, but it is really we both enjoy that

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part of it all.

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It is fun. And thanks thanks again Monial for listening,

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and thanks for the snack recommendations.

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So you purchase those snacks from Amazon dot com?

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No, and you oh no, it was a different company.

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Well link to them.

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I will provide a link to where I got them from.

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Great.

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Well, shall we get back to the story of Carrie

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and Matt Baker.

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Yeah, I want to know what happens here. Two more

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parts for us, so I know a lot must happen.

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There's a lot, a lot. Before we get into recapping

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part one, just I'll repeat the content warning from last time.

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This episode will contain descriptions of sexual assault that may

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be disturbing for some listeners. Please listen with care. If

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you haven't listened to part one, you should go back

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and do that now. But do you want to give

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us a quick recap?

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No, I really don't.

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I would like you too.

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Matt and Carrie Baker lived in Waco, Texas, home of

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Chip and Joanna Gaines. Do you know that?

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Do you know who those people are?

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Matt was a Baptist minister and Carrie was a teacher.

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She was. Did she teach elementary school and then she

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went on to be a college professor?

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She did, but she taught at college one night a week.

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She was full time elementarily. I think at the I

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didn't know if she went she's teaching third grade full.

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Time college professor. Matt is a horrible, horrible, horrible man. Yes,

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they Matt and got married after dating for only three months.

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Matt was twenty three and Carrie was twenty at the time,

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and Matt had a lot of an appropriate sexual conduct

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with women of different ages. Yes, starting a college, several

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young women and teenage girls came forward with sexual assault

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allegations against Matt, and we're talking like ten to fifteen, right.

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It was a lot, and with varying degrees of severity.

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Matt suffered very few consequences from these accusations, getting fired once,

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but in general he got off with just a warning

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and was able to continue on in whatever position he

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was in at the time. Had a lot of jobs.

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He worked at a lot of churches and with youth groups.

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Carrie and Matt had a daughter named Kenzie, followed by

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another daughter, Cassidy. Shortly after her first birthday, Cassidy was

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diagnosed with a brain tumor. Cassidy battled for weeks in

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the hospital before finally being allowed to come home. It

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seemed like she was on the road to recovery when

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she surprisingly passed away one night, and Matt had been

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the last person to check on her. And it was

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an odd situation because he checked on her twice within

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ten minutes, and Matt didn't seem to grieve the death

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of Cassidy at all. He was back to work within

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a few days. Carrie couldn't understand why he didn't hurt

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like she did. There was an odd situation in the

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hospital when he was like hitting on one.

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Of a friend of friend Carrie's cousin.

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Yeah, he was like, hey, let's just go to one

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of the rooms in the hospital, which Carrie sought counseling

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to deal with her grief, and within a year she

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was able to get back to most of her life activities,

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and she and Matt soon had another daughter named they

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named Grace. Matt continued with his pattern of assault and

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horrible behavior towards women and girls, and he had several jobs.

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As a seventh anniversary of Cassidy's death approached in the

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spring of two thousand and six, Matt and Carrey started

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having more marital issues and financial issues. Around the same time,

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Matt seemed taken with a twenty three year old Vanessa Bulls,

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who had started attending his church. I think he was

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at least ten years older at that time. Yeah, and

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they're back and forth emails talking about their marital struggles.

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Matt told Carrie that he blamed her and God for

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Cassidy's death because she had prayed for Cassidy to be

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free of pain, and he interpreted Cassidy's death as an

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answer to that prayer. Carrie was shattered by him blaming

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her and saying other extremely hurtful things. She told her

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mom that she was thinking of divorcing Matt, but as

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we'll see, she decided to keep making an effort to

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fix their broken marriage.

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The email he sent her that we read near the

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end of part one, it's just so horrible, Like, basically

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she was praying for Cassidy to be free of pain

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and he was like, God answered your prayer by taking

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her away, which is just a horrible, horrible thing to.

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Say, just super manipulative, and it just shows how much

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control he was.

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Yeah, he had in their marriage. And he also talked

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in the email about how he prayed for her to

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be well again and go to college and have a family.

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He was some big hero for making the right prayer

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and she made the wrong prayer. It's just, yeah, he's

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just a terrible person.

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True.

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We pick up our story on around March twenty eighth,

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which is about a week and a half before Carrie's death.

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While Carrie had previously refused to consider the possibility that

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Matt was having an affair, doubts started to creep in

241
00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:26.159
around this time. At some point, Carrie was chatting with

242
00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:29.279
Vanessa at church. When Vanessa mentioned something that Matt had

243
00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:32.240
said to her on the phone, Carrie asked, why were

244
00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:35.080
you talking with Matt. Matt may have been the start

245
00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:37.960
of Carrie's suspicions. I think a lot of it also is.

246
00:11:38.200 --> 00:11:41.159
She said in the different emails to Matt that he

247
00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:44.159
had been acting different, that something she could tell something

248
00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:48.039
had changed. He wasn't as interested in sex anymore. So

249
00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:51.000
I think all these things were adding up in her mind.

250
00:11:51.799 --> 00:11:54.799
She did confide her fears with a few close friends

251
00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:58.519
during that final week of her life. She even joked

252
00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:02.039
flirtatiously with Matt about it in an email exchange on Wednesday,

253
00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:05.799
March twenty ninth, the day after they had apparently reconnected physically.

254
00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:08.519
I haven't heard from you, so I thought I would

255
00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:12.799
say Hi. Maybe you are busy with your girlfriend smiley face,

256
00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:13.639
I love you.

257
00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:16.679
Yeah, babe, I was hooking up with my girlfriend. By

258
00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.159
the way, what is her name? Anyway, smiley face, love

259
00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:20.879
you very much.

260
00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:23.519
Well, I thought that maybe you have been learning all

261
00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:28.480
those crazy moves you did last night someplace. Ah, smiley face, you.

262
00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:31.840
Know it, Smiley face. Tomorrow I'm going to buy to

263
00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:33.919
go buy an item or two for Friday.

264
00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:36.320
Why was that not enough?

265
00:12:36.919 --> 00:12:39.399
I Am going to shock you. And then the next day,

266
00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:42.159
he picks up the conversation. I got a couple of

267
00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:44.440
needed items, but I will have to get a couple more.

268
00:12:44.679 --> 00:12:45.519
I will be ready.

269
00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:48.000
What in the world do you have planned?

270
00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:50.240
Not gonna tell you, smiley face.

271
00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:52.840
You suck five exclamation points.

272
00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:56.559
You will like it. Carrie must have been I'm a

273
00:12:56.600 --> 00:13:00.279
little sure. Yes, I'm not surprised. Carrie must have been

274
00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:02.799
a little bit worried about what Matt had planned, but

275
00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:04.960
at the same time she was trying to do whatever

276
00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:07.960
it would take to fix her marriage. On that Friday,

277
00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:10.480
at school, she asked a good friend and fellow teacher

278
00:13:10.519 --> 00:13:12.879
to pray with her. She said that she and Matt

279
00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:15.039
had a date that night and she wanted it to

280
00:13:15.080 --> 00:13:17.960
go well. She told her friend quote, I hope he

281
00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:21.120
doesn't want to tie me up or do something stupid. Unquote.

282
00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:25.120
A couple of other things happened that week that improved

283
00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:28.840
Carrie's mood. First, the school got the results of the

284
00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:32.519
Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skill Test back. Carrie was

285
00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:36.480
ecstatic to learn that every one of her students passed. Second,

286
00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:38.759
she heard about a job opening at a middle school

287
00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:42.120
that she was very interested in. She emailed the principal,

288
00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:45.200
who responded positively, and they set up an interview for

289
00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:47.200
the following Friday, April seventh.

290
00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:49.440
So Carrie taught third or fourth grade.

291
00:13:49.480 --> 00:13:52.879
She was teaching third grade at this point. Yeah. Well,

292
00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:55.519
the week had ended on a high note. Starting on Sunday,

293
00:13:55.559 --> 00:13:58.080
April second, and going into what would be the final

294
00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:02.200
week of her life, things started going downhill again for Carrie.

295
00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:05.679
On Sunday, everything seemed fine at church, but that afternoon

296
00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:07.720
Carrie called a friend and said she was having a

297
00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:11.480
difficult day. In fact, she said she was having panic attacks,

298
00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:15.279
feeling her heart racing at times. That night, she wrote

299
00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:19.919
in her Bible, which doubled as a journal for Carrie, quote, peace, Lord,

300
00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:23.039
grant me peace, calm my soul. I feel like I

301
00:14:23.080 --> 00:14:25.039
have so much worry and I can't get a hold

302
00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:28.480
on it. Lord be the center of our relationship. And

303
00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:31.200
then she wrote, quote, Lord, I am asking you to

304
00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:33.720
protect me from harm. I am not sure what is

305
00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:36.120
going on with Matt, but Lord helped me find peace

306
00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:39.440
with him unquote. And she didn't get any more specific

307
00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:42.279
than that, but it sure sounded like she was fearful

308
00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:46.080
that Matt was going to harm her. On Monday, April third,

309
00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:48.919
Matt took Carrie to her doctor. She told him that

310
00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:52.279
she was feeling anxious and asked for a prescription of xanax.

311
00:14:53.159 --> 00:14:55.360
Why did Matt take her to the doctor. It seems like,

312
00:14:55.799 --> 00:14:57.879
you know, if she was just feeling anxiety, she could

313
00:14:57.919 --> 00:14:58.799
have taken herself.

314
00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:01.279
You know, that's the impression. We talked about it a

315
00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:03.639
little bit in Part one, that Matt went everywhere with her,

316
00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:05.159
Like if she went to get her hair done, he

317
00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:06.919
would go with her. And I think that was just

318
00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:10.679
part of his controlling nature. Okay, So Carrie asked her

319
00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:13.600
doctor for xanax because her mom had given her one

320
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:16.919
once before and she liked the effect. Instead of writing

321
00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:20.679
a prescription for xanax, though the doctor recommended an antidepressant,

322
00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:24.600
Carrie said, no, I'm not depressed, I'm anxious. The doctor

323
00:15:24.679 --> 00:15:28.360
persisted saying that depression often manifested itself in the form

324
00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:33.919
of anxiety. Leaving the doctor's office with her Selexa antidepressant prescription,

325
00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:36.799
Carrie was furious that the doctor hadn't listened to her.

326
00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:39.519
She tore up the prescription on the way out the door.

327
00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:43.440
On the way home from her doctor, Carrie called her mom.

328
00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:45.879
She told her mom that Matt had stopped at a

329
00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:47.919
stop sign and she had opened the door to get

330
00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:50.639
some air. She said that Matt grabbed her like he

331
00:15:50.679 --> 00:15:53.519
thought she was going to jump from the car. Carrie

332
00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:55.600
was laughing about this when she told her mom, but

333
00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:58.759
Linda was worried. She told Carrie that she should call

334
00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:02.080
joe Anne Bristol, who had counseled Carrie in the year

335
00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:06.120
after Cassidy's death. Matt would later tell people that Carrie

336
00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:08.240
actually tried to jump out of the car while he

337
00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:11.120
was driving fast on the freeway, and that he had

338
00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:15.240
saved her by grabbing her arm. Later that afternoon, Carrie

339
00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:18.000
called a friend sobbing and told her that she thought

340
00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:19.240
Matt was having an affair.

341
00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:22.960
That Monday night, Carrie was looking for a pen to

342
00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:26.720
gread some papers and looked in Matt's briefcase, she saw

343
00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:29.360
a small container filled with what looked like some sort

344
00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:32.559
of crushed up pills. She asked Matt what it was,

345
00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:35.360
and he said sometimes residents at the youth home he

346
00:16:35.399 --> 00:16:38.639
worked at would not swallow the pills they were supposed

347
00:16:38.679 --> 00:16:41.720
to take, and they would sometimes spit them into his

348
00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:45.039
briefcase to take what.

349
00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:50.960
It doesn't seem like a very logical explanation, does it. No,

350
00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:53.600
I had to read when I read that in Catherine

351
00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:55.960
Casey's book, I had to read it like three times.

352
00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:00.360
So people would spit pills into his briefcase and then

353
00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:02.799
he would he gathered them up and put them into

354
00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:05.279
a little jar. It makes no sense.

355
00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:09.319
That's one of the worst excuses I've ever heard for anything. Yeah,

356
00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:12.319
he said he had reported this through the appropriate channel

357
00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:16.279
at his work. Wouldn't you just throw the pills away?

358
00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:16.519
Oh?

359
00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:18.359
I think you have to report it, right, because that

360
00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:21.759
would be a serious, a serious issue if people weren't

361
00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:24.839
taking their pills at this youth home. But the whole thing,

362
00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:26.119
it makes no sense.

363
00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:31.079
This explanation made no sense whatsoever. How could the pills

364
00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:33.720
be in a powdered form if they had been spit out?

365
00:17:34.119 --> 00:17:37.119
Why would they be in a small container. On Tuesday,

366
00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:40.559
Matt emailed Carrie to check in. She replied, sorry that

367
00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:42.559
I freaked out this morning. I guess my mind is

368
00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:46.039
just going crazy. I started thinking about what if this?

369
00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:49.519
And what if that. Anyway, I am doing better and

370
00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:53.599
I am trying really hard to relax. That afternoon, Carrie

371
00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:56.759
took her mom's advice and called Joanne Bristol, who said

372
00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:00.640
she could see Carrie that afternoon. Carrie hadn't to Joanne

373
00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:03.880
in about six years. She started this session by telling

374
00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.359
Joanne about the good things happening in her life. Carrie

375
00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:10.440
was proud that she was down seventeen pounds since starting

376
00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:13.599
her diet. She was excited about her job interview coming

377
00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:16.079
up on Friday, and she felt like the girls were

378
00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:19.119
doing well in school. She also shared her thoughts on

379
00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:22.880
helping other parents who had lost children. Then she turned

380
00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:25.200
the conversation to her troubles with Matt and the e

381
00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:28.839
mail Matt had sent about his feelings regarding Cassidy's death.

382
00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:32.160
She told Joanne about the incident where she opened the

383
00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:34.640
car door, again, claiming that she was just trying to

384
00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:37.640
get some air. Joanne asked Carrie if she was feeling

385
00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:41.480
it all suicidal, and Carrie said no. She told Joanne

386
00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:44.720
about finding the crushed pills in Matt's briefcase. Then she

387
00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:48.119
confided her deepest fear, telling Joanne that she thought Matt

388
00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:51.440
was planning to kill her. Joanne asked her to repeat

389
00:18:51.480 --> 00:18:54.680
what she had just said. Carrie said, quote, I think

390
00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:57.319
Matt's having an affair, and I think Matt is planning

391
00:18:57.319 --> 00:19:02.240
to kill me. But then, just as suddenly, she backtracked, saying, quote, no,

392
00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:05.440
he's not. That's ridiculous. I know better than that. Matt

393
00:19:05.480 --> 00:19:09.640
would never do anything like that. He wouldn't. They left

394
00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:12.160
it there, with Joanne asking Carrie to call her in

395
00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:14.960
a few days to check. In the rest of the week,

396
00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:17.720
Carrie seemed to be swinging back and forth. On the

397
00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:20.000
one hand, she wanted to make things work with Matt,

398
00:19:20.279 --> 00:19:22.680
telling a friend she was trying to be more adventurous

399
00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:26.039
in the bedroom. On the other hand, she suspected he

400
00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:28.880
was having an affair and was worried about the pills

401
00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:31.680
and that he was planning to harm her. She told

402
00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:33.920
her friend on Wednesday morning that she was thinking of

403
00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:37.200
leaving Matt. She repeated what she had said to Joanne

404
00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:40.519
about the pills the concerns she was having about an affair,

405
00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:43.160
and that she was frightened he was planning to kill

406
00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:48.160
her again. She backtracked right away, saying, I know that's ridiculous.

407
00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:50.920
I can't imagine if a friend came to me and

408
00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:54.039
said that I think my husband's planning on killing me.

409
00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:58.880
I mean, yeah, it's just it's unthinkable, shocking. Yeah, it

410
00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:01.400
would be shocking for someone to say that, and then, yeah,

411
00:20:01.640 --> 00:20:04.440
you wish that someone would have taken some action, but

412
00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:07.519
I'm sure everyone was like, you know, no, you're imagining.

413
00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:08.640
There's no way.

414
00:20:08.839 --> 00:20:11.759
Yeah, Like if we didn't have a true crime podcast

415
00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:14.799
and a friend said that to me, I would be like, Sala,

416
00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:16.720
you're overreacting, you're being silly.

417
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:20.039
But yeah, it's really it's just really sad. You can

418
00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:22.400
tell that all these thoughts were swirling in her head

419
00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:26.839
like crazy. Yes, exactly. She was like, I must be

420
00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:29.079
losing it because there's no way any of this could

421
00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:29.480
be true.

422
00:20:31.160 --> 00:20:34.680
Trust your gut, ladies. Thursday afternoon, Carrie told a friend

423
00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:37.559
things were looking up. She said things between her and

424
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:39.880
Matt were better and they were really trying to work

425
00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:44.079
on their relationship. On Friday, April seventh, which would be

426
00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:46.799
the last day of Carrie's life. She was nervous and

427
00:20:46.839 --> 00:20:50.359
excited about her job interview that afternoon. She called her

428
00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:52.839
mom on her way home after the interview, and her

429
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:57.160
mood was a buliant. She told Linda, quote, I rocked.

430
00:20:57.319 --> 00:21:01.240
I was so good I slam dunked it. Later, she

431
00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:03.599
emailed a friend who worked at the middle school to

432
00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:05.599
see if he had gotten any word about how she

433
00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:09.240
had done. He replied and said quote, they were blown

434
00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:12.440
away and that she was definitely in the running for

435
00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:15.920
the job. Carrie stopped at Walmart on her way home.

436
00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:18.680
There she ran into the parent of one of her students,

437
00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:22.480
a woman named Shannon Gamble. Shannon told Carrie how grateful

438
00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:25.079
and appreciative she was for all the help that Carrie

439
00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:28.160
gave her son. Shannon didn't know Carrie that well, but

440
00:21:28.200 --> 00:21:30.519
it was apparent to her how much Carrie loved her

441
00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:32.279
son and all of her students.

442
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:35.599
Remember Shannon's name because she will later become a key

443
00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:37.599
player in seeking justice for Carrie.

444
00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:42.240
Okay, Carrie's happiness that afternoon was short lived. At five fifteen,

445
00:21:42.359 --> 00:21:44.240
Carrie and Matt showed up at the y m c

446
00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:47.480
A for Kenzie's swim team practice, one of the other

447
00:21:47.559 --> 00:21:49.960
moms saw Carrie and noticed that her eyes were red.

448
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:53.240
If she'd been crying, normally, Carrie would have come over

449
00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:55.680
to chat with her, but she and Matt went and

450
00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:58.640
sat by themselves. The other mom said, you could have

451
00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:01.720
cut the tension with the knight. Remind me how old

452
00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:02.759
Kensi and Grace are.

453
00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:06.359
So Kenzie is nine, almost ten, I think she was.

454
00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:09.200
Her birthday was in a couple of weeks from this time,

455
00:22:09.319 --> 00:22:11.240
and Grace I believe was five.

456
00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:14.640
After practice, Matt, Carey and the kids drove to a

457
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:17.240
pizza place, but the wait was too long, so they

458
00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:19.920
decided to go through the McDonald's drive through for dinner

459
00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:24.160
around six fifteen. Matt later said that all carrieate that

460
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:27.480
evening were two French fries, and then she threw up

461
00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:28.400
when they got home.

462
00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:32.640
Matt would later say that around eleven PM, Carrie asked

463
00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:35.039
him to go and gass up their SUV and pick

464
00:22:35.079 --> 00:22:37.880
up a movie at Hollywood Video, When a Man Loves

465
00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:40.160
a Woman, which was the movie they saw on their

466
00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:42.799
first date. He said that he left the house around

467
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:45.920
eleven fifteen and got back around midnight to find the

468
00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:49.079
bedroom door locked. He used a screwdriver to get the

469
00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:51.640
door open and found Carrie naked in bed.

470
00:22:52.279 --> 00:22:55.079
Who leaves to rent a video at eleven fifteen pm.

471
00:22:55.799 --> 00:22:58.079
Maybe they're late night people.

472
00:22:58.200 --> 00:23:02.160
But they have two young kids. It just seems unlikely.

473
00:23:02.440 --> 00:23:05.440
Yeah, it does seem unlikely in any case. When Matt

474
00:23:05.480 --> 00:23:07.359
got home, he found the door locked. He used the

475
00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:08.839
screwdriver to open it.

476
00:23:09.559 --> 00:23:14.400
She was not moving, no response, and I shake her,

477
00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:17.640
I call her name, and wow, what do I do?

478
00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:20.319
And I put my head to her chest and didn't

479
00:23:20.359 --> 00:23:23.559
see a field of chest rising, no no air coming out,

480
00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:24.720
felt for pulse. Nothing.

481
00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:28.559
Just after midnight, Matt called nine one one. This call

482
00:23:28.599 --> 00:23:30.720
is about four minutes long, and there are a couple

483
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:33.000
of fairly long pauses during the call. But I want

484
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:35.599
to play the whole thing so that you can hear Matt,

485
00:23:35.720 --> 00:23:38.880
get a feel for those four minutes until the empt

486
00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:42.519
has arrived, and kind of get a feel for Matt's behavior,

487
00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:43.160
his demeanor.

488
00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:46.240
Okay, what's the problem to me? Exactly what happened?

489
00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:51.359
My wife is laying in the bed and her lifts

490
00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:52.000
are blue.

491
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:55.400
Hands are are told and there's a note that says

492
00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:58.279
I'm sorry. Basically, while you're there.

493
00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:01.319
With her right now, am I'm old she she is?

494
00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:03.119
Oh god, she's thirty two?

495
00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:06.039
Thirty two? Is she conscious? No, she's breathing.

496
00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:07.359
No, no, no, she's not breathing it.

497
00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:08.319
All no faulse or anything.

498
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:12.960
Did you see what happened to her?

499
00:24:13.240 --> 00:24:15.640
Oh no, I just tried to push.

500
00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:17.079
Down on her chests and stuff came out of her nose.

501
00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:21.000
No, no, no, no, I do not know shea there

502
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:22.359
de fibulator there?

503
00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:24.759
No, okay, I guess it.

504
00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:27.079
Emails is on the way. Okay, are you outside her

505
00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:27.480
right now?

506
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:28.240
Okay?

507
00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:29.759
Listen carefully and did you get her a lad flight

508
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:31.680
on her back on the ground and remove any pillows?

509
00:24:31.720 --> 00:24:32.920
Okay, okay, put.

510
00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:34.240
Her on the floor, correct, on the bed and out

511
00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:34.640
put her right.

512
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:35.440
She needs to be on the floor.

513
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:35.960
You're okay?

514
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.160
Okay, I will do that and tell me when you're done. Okay,

515
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:48.319
cool one, hey, hold on, old.

516
00:24:47.920 --> 00:25:10.880
On, Yes, and I know how to do CPR.

517
00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:11.519
Oh you do.

518
00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:13.880
I'm sorry I start if I to do that.

519
00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:15.599
Yeah, okay, I just need to.

520
00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:17.039
Make sure that you're doing it correctly.

521
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:17.240
Right.

522
00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:19.240
Just look in her mouth, tax surely even fit her vomit.

523
00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:22.480
There is fluid all in her nose and in her

524
00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:23.880
mouth and just poured out of her.

525
00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:27.240
Is it possible to get it all out right now.

526
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:28.400
As far as I know?

527
00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:30.640
Okay, so'll go to have a little left if you

528
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:32.640
can blow through it, have a little bit in there. Okay,

529
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:33.880
just go in. Put one hand on the floor of

530
00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:35.400
the owner her neck and tilt her head back.

531
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:37.000
Okay, it is okay.

532
00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:38.880
Make sure put your next to your mouth and double check.

533
00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:40.160
Make sure you can feel it here and you're breathing.

534
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:42.319
There's nothing, there's nothing.

535
00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:45.759
Okay. We're gonna go ahead to do compressions first, okay, okay,

536
00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:47.680
lit okay. If you have to do compressions, she's to

537
00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:49.440
be flat on her back, the heel of your hand

538
00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:51.680
on her breast, post of her chest, dropped tmen her nipples,

539
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:52.880
the other hand.

540
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:53.319
On top of it.

541
00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:56.079
Okay, you're gonna burst pushed down partly two inches of

542
00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:58.319
only your lower hand touching her chest. You're gonna do

543
00:25:58.359 --> 00:26:00.000
it fast and fart four hundred times.

544
00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:01.000
Four hundred.

545
00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:03.240
Four hundred times is the latest we've been totally instructed

546
00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:06.559
to do. Okay, twice per secondst it all. After the

547
00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:10.119
four hundred, it's gonna be about twice per second. I'll

548
00:26:10.119 --> 00:26:11.799
think you about three and a half minutes to do it. Okay,

549
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:13.400
so start right now. I'll tell you when to stop.

550
00:26:13.559 --> 00:26:15.039
All right.

551
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:18.319
Do you need to let the chest come up all

552
00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:19.319
the way between the pumps?

553
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:24.279
Okay, yeah they are Okay.

554
00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:27.440
I think she thinks she urinated on herself too.

555
00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:32.559
Okay. Smells like kids, water everywhere.

556
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:38.599
Something everywhere. Do I need to go unlock the front door.

557
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:41.720
I'll let you know when they start getting closed. Okay, Okay,

558
00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:42.599
just keep.

559
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:45.759
Doing compressions that I have two kids in their bedroom,

560
00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:48.680
ok and he just is there.

561
00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:51.720
I need to get ahold of five parents.

562
00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:54.039
They live in town, and I want them to.

563
00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:55.119
Come over and be with the kids.

564
00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:57.759
Did I remember wouldn't call for him?

565
00:26:58.039 --> 00:26:58.720
Yes? You know.

566
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:00.680
So.

567
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:06.039
Their names are Jim and Linda doing the U L

568
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:06.599
I N.

569
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:13.519
Phone number seven seven six h three seven two six.

570
00:27:13.640 --> 00:27:15.319
You're still doing compressions.

571
00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:16.599
You say, okay, keep doing those up and somebody else

572
00:27:16.599 --> 00:27:18.759
started on this. Okay, thank you, thank you, thank you.

573
00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:29.720
I jump the phone. Oh, she's a phone or something

574
00:27:29.720 --> 00:27:30.519
coming out of her net.

575
00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:31.759
Okay, someone's at the front door.

576
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:32.240
I gotta go.

577
00:27:32.680 --> 00:27:40.759
Okay, go ahead, all right, yes, yes, yeah, in the

578
00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:42.400
cool Okay, I can't.

579
00:27:42.200 --> 00:27:43.480
Do I still need to be on the phone with you,

580
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:44.359
or can I go there?

581
00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:46.119
You can hang up with me, Okay, okay, thank you.

582
00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:46.400
Sure.

583
00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:49.119
What do you make of that nine?

584
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:51.400
He was so unbothered.

585
00:27:51.880 --> 00:27:54.240
I know, he sounded like he was a doctor or

586
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:57.400
a medical professional, like he just does this every day.

587
00:27:58.039 --> 00:28:00.119
No, we're not supposed to put too much weight on

588
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:02.240
a person's demeanor when they make a nine to one

589
00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:06.039
one call, but he just seemed like very detached and

590
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:11.000
not at all. Yeah, unusually unemotional.

591
00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:12.839
Yes, for sure. The other thing that I noticed about

592
00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:16.039
that call is just he doesn't seem like he's exerting

593
00:28:16.119 --> 00:28:17.039
himself at all.

594
00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:18.839
So yeah, he seems like he wants to go, Oh

595
00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:20.440
I need to go open the door, or oh, I'm

596
00:28:20.440 --> 00:28:22.200
going to I need to go make a call. Yeah,

597
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:24.480
it's very strange. Yeah, and carry you're on the phone

598
00:28:24.519 --> 00:28:26.240
with nine to one one, they can make a call

599
00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:29.119
for you, and they can find a number really easily.

600
00:28:29.319 --> 00:28:32.359
So yeah, bizarre. And Carrie, I think she weighed about

601
00:28:32.400 --> 00:28:34.359
one hundred and ninety pounds. So he took her from

602
00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:37.839
the bed to the floor and then allegedly was doing

603
00:28:38.039 --> 00:28:42.000
chest compressions two times a second for that entire time

604
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:43.519
that they were on the call, and he did not

605
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:47.599
seem at all winded. You would be totally, I would be,

606
00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:51.680
you know, really exhausted. Yeah, for sure.

607
00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:52.119
Yeah.

608
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:56.480
It's well, it's emotional, you're exerting yourself. It's and your

609
00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:57.920
kids are in the house. You've got to be worried

610
00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:01.319
about it. There's a lot going on, ye in your head.

611
00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:05.039
Yeah. The EMTs arrived quickly as we as we heard

612
00:29:05.079 --> 00:29:07.279
on the call. Matt waved them in and pointed them

613
00:29:07.279 --> 00:29:09.880
to the bedroom, where they found Carrie lying on the floor,

614
00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:14.119
arms splayed out, wearing a T shirt and panties. They

615
00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:17.279
hooked up a portable defibrillator, put a bag valve mask

616
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:21.039
over her nose and mouth, and began compressions. The defib

617
00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:24.599
machine read no rhythm, which means there's no heart activity

618
00:29:24.680 --> 00:29:28.000
or rhythm, and defibrillating wouldn't help in that circumstance, so

619
00:29:28.039 --> 00:29:31.599
they didn't use it. They continued CPR while waiting for

620
00:29:31.640 --> 00:29:35.200
the paramedics to arrive. One of the EMTs noticed that

621
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:38.720
Carrie's body was cool and that lividity was starting to

622
00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:41.759
form on her hands and back, making him wonder how

623
00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:45.119
long Carrie had been unresponsive. Do you want to explain

624
00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:47.880
lividity briefly for people who may not know.

625
00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:51.319
I think everyone knows, but if not, it's just when

626
00:29:51.319 --> 00:29:55.319
the blood settles and kind of pulls in one area,

627
00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:56.319
and it.

628
00:29:56.279 --> 00:29:58.599
Takes time for that to happen after someone dies.

629
00:29:58.599 --> 00:30:00.319
It usually I always forget the timeline and is it

630
00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:01.599
like one to two hours?

631
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:03.720
I think at least one to two hours.

632
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:07.920
Quick Google tells me that it's anywhere from thirty minutes

633
00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:08.680
to four hours.

634
00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:12.960
Okay. When the paramedics arrived, they also noticed the lividity

635
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:15.480
and Carrie's arms back in the back of her neck.

636
00:30:16.039 --> 00:30:19.359
Her skin was cool, and her pupils were dilated and fixed.

637
00:30:20.039 --> 00:30:22.920
They called the doctor overseeing the ambulance shift that night,

638
00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:25.960
relayed all the information to him, and he pronounced Carrie

639
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:31.079
dead at twelve seventeen am. Meanwhile, Hewittt police officer Michael

640
00:30:31.079 --> 00:30:34.559
Irving showed up and spoke with Matt. Matt told Irving

641
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:38.079
about leaving, gassing up the SEV, picking up the movie,

642
00:30:38.519 --> 00:30:41.240
and getting back around midnight to find the door locked.

643
00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:43.720
He said that while he was on the phone with

644
00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:46.240
nine one one, he pulled Carrie from the bed to

645
00:30:46.279 --> 00:30:48.880
the floor, put a T shirt and panties on her

646
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:53.119
to preserve her modesty, performed CPR and greeted the Empts

647
00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:56.480
at the front door. As they arrived, he showed Officer

648
00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:59.240
Irving the note that he found on the nightstand. The

649
00:30:59.319 --> 00:31:03.519
note was a print document from the computer. It read, Matt,

650
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:06.400
I am so sorry. I am so tired. I just

651
00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:09.599
want to sleep for a while. Please forgive me. Tell

652
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:13.200
Kenzie and Grace that I love them very much. Tell

653
00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:15.799
my mom and dad that I love them too. I

654
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:17.880
love you, Matt. I am so sorry for the past

655
00:31:17.960 --> 00:31:20.680
few weeks. I want to give Cassidy a hug. I

656
00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:23.599
need to feel her again. Please continue to be the

657
00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:26.720
great dad to our little girls. Love them every day

658
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:30.680
for me. I am sorry. I love you. Carrie. You

659
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:32.839
look like you might want to say something about that note.

660
00:31:33.079 --> 00:31:39.839
I'm angry, Yeah, I just yeah. I how many people

661
00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:41.319
type a suicide note?

662
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:45.440
Right yeah? That right of right away should have raised

663
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:46.559
some flags.

664
00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:50.720
And Carrie was a lovely person. I know she loved

665
00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:53.559
her daughters deeply, and her parents were sounded like they

666
00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:56.240
were great parents. I don't think she would have been like,

667
00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:59.480
oh tell everyone you know, like she will. In the

668
00:31:59.559 --> 00:32:02.200
unlikely event that she would have taken her own life.

669
00:32:02.599 --> 00:32:04.599
I think she would have addressed I don't know.

670
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:09.279
It's just infuriating it is, And it's interesting also that

671
00:32:09.400 --> 00:32:13.720
she chose to give Matt compliments in her note as well,

672
00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:15.880
like you're a great dad, and you know you're a

673
00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:19.759
great guy. Just continued being a great guy, Matt very true.

674
00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:24.000
Looking at the nightstand, officer Irving saw beside the note

675
00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:27.599
a unism container with two pills remaining in it. Matt

676
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:29.759
said that Carrie took one every night, but he didn't

677
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:32.680
know how many had been left in the container. Also,

678
00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:34.680
Matt said that they had had a few drinks that

679
00:32:34.759 --> 00:32:37.240
night and there were two empty bottles of Bartle's and

680
00:32:37.319 --> 00:32:40.640
James Fuzzy Naval Wine coolers on the night stay. Now

681
00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:42.799
when I thought it too, I was like, oh wow,

682
00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:46.359
I remember Bartles and James. Matt said that he thought

683
00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:50.200
Carrie drank just two. Irving asked Matt whether Carrie had

684
00:32:50.200 --> 00:32:53.640
ever attempted suicide before. He said no, but that she

685
00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:56.640
had talked about it. He explained that Carrie had been

686
00:32:56.720 --> 00:32:59.680
upset ever since their second daughter died seven years ago,

687
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:02.599
and that she had been especially depressed and talked of

688
00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:06.759
suicide in the past couple of weeks. We'll be back

689
00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:07.559
after a break.

690
00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:17.480
Before we jump back into the case, I just wanted

691
00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:22.559
to mention that Bartle's and James is still being produced there. Yeah.

692
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:24.519
I think they might have gone off the market for

693
00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:27.160
a while, but in recent years, probably the last I

694
00:33:27.160 --> 00:33:30.640
don't know five years or so, when like white claws

695
00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:35.720
and things like that became more common, I think that

696
00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:38.200
they probably jumped back into the market. Yeah, because they

697
00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:38.960
were kind of the original.

698
00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:40.599
I was going to say they were like the original,

699
00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:42.559
Like I don't want to drink beer. I don't want

700
00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:45.799
to drink mixed drinks or hard liquor, so yeah, get

701
00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:46.440
a wine cooler.

702
00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:49.640
I am devastated by Carrie's death. She seemed like an

703
00:33:49.640 --> 00:33:50.319
amazing woman.

704
00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:52.759
Yeah, she really did. It's so sad.

705
00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:56.279
It's just such a piece of it's just a horrible person.

706
00:33:57.559 --> 00:34:00.599
After Carrie was pronounced Dad, Officer Irvin called into the

707
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:04.000
Hewett Police Department and informed the investigator on duty that

708
00:34:04.119 --> 00:34:09.079
night of the situation. The investigator then called William Billy Martin,

709
00:34:09.400 --> 00:34:12.440
who was a local Justice of the peace. In most

710
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:15.400
counties in Texas, a justice of the peace determines the

711
00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:18.880
cause and manner of death and determines whether an autopsy

712
00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:22.639
is deemed necessary. I did not know that. That's interesting.

713
00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:23.039
It is.

714
00:34:23.159 --> 00:34:25.159
Yeah, I was thought a justice of the peace just

715
00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:31.320
married people. Jpas are either elected or appointed and don't

716
00:34:31.320 --> 00:34:34.079
need to have any special qualifications to do the job,

717
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:37.199
although they are given some training. Once they assume the.

718
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:39.159
Role, they kind of like I get the impression there,

719
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:41.760
sort of like a judge, but not quite like a

720
00:34:41.800 --> 00:34:42.639
full judge.

721
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:46.519
Okay, that makes sense. The investigator on duty related all

722
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:50.239
the information he had to Billy Martin, seeing the suicide

723
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:53.800
note the near empty unison bottle, the wine cooler bottles,

724
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:55.920
and what her husband said about the loss of their

725
00:34:56.039 --> 00:35:00.519
child and carries depression and talk of suicide. Martin asked

726
00:35:00.519 --> 00:35:03.519
a few questions, like were there any stab or gunshot

727
00:35:03.559 --> 00:35:07.280
wounds on her body? There weren't. Martin decided there was

728
00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:09.280
no need to leave the house and the wee hours

729
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:12.199
of the morning and look at the scene himself. He'd

730
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:15.000
heard everything he needed to hear. He ruled the death

731
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:19.079
of suicide over the phone and no autopsy was needed.

732
00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:22.599
The case was closed only about an hour after the

733
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:24.639
authorities had arrived on the scene.

734
00:35:25.159 --> 00:35:26.960
Isn't just the first of many things that are going

735
00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:28.079
to make you really angry.

736
00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:31.679
In this episode, an officer arrived on the scene to

737
00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:35.920
take photos. Normally, even if a suicide is suspected, dozens,

738
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:39.679
if not hundreds, of photos are taken, documenting every aspect

739
00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:42.840
of the scene for whatever reason, though in this case,

740
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:48.119
the photographer only took eight photos. Oh my gosh. Three

741
00:35:48.119 --> 00:35:50.559
of them wore of Carrie's body, and the other five

742
00:35:50.639 --> 00:35:54.199
showed different angles of the bedroom, the nightstand, in close

743
00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:58.199
ups of the unison bottle. The nine one one dispatcher

744
00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:00.719
had called Linda and Jim, telling them that there was

745
00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:04.079
an emergency at their daughter's home and they needed to

746
00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:06.800
get there. They called Matt on the way over, asking

747
00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:10.039
what had happened. Matt told them Carrie was dead. She

748
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:14.280
had died by suicide. He said. Linda couldn't comprehend this.

749
00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:17.239
She had spoken with Carrie that afternoon and she had

750
00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:21.599
seemed so happy. Linda called her sister Kay, who called

751
00:36:21.639 --> 00:36:24.880
their other sister Nancy, who then called her daughter Lindsay.

752
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:29.320
Lindsay immediately said Carrie didn't kill herself, Matt killed her.

753
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:32.199
I remember from the first episode, Lindsay is like one

754
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:32.960
of her best friends.

755
00:36:33.159 --> 00:36:35.559
She was but she was yeah, pretty much her best

756
00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:36.440
friend like a sister.

757
00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:40.079
Nancy had the same gut reaction, but she told Lindsay

758
00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:43.320
not to worry. The police would figure it out. She said,

759
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:46.440
the autopsy will give us answers. Little did they know

760
00:36:46.519 --> 00:36:51.559
there would be no autopsy. What's so frustrating. Kay called

761
00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:53.760
her friend joe Ane Bristol to break the news to her.

762
00:36:54.239 --> 00:36:56.400
Joe Anne told Kay that she had seen Carrie just

763
00:36:56.440 --> 00:36:58.800
a few days earlier and asked how she had died.

764
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:03.440
Said it was an overdose. Joanne told her about Carrie

765
00:37:03.480 --> 00:37:06.639
finding the crushed pills and Matt's briefcase, and her fears

766
00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:10.280
that Matt was planning to kill her. Kay said, but

767
00:37:10.519 --> 00:37:13.639
Carrie left a suicide note. None of the family knew

768
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:15.800
at that point that the note had been printed from

769
00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:19.920
a computer document, not handwritten. Because of that, and because

770
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:23.559
both women assumed there would be an autopsy, they decided

771
00:37:23.559 --> 00:37:25.960
there was no reason for Joanne to tell the police

772
00:37:26.159 --> 00:37:29.599
what she knew. Just yet, Linda showed up at the

773
00:37:29.639 --> 00:37:33.760
house screaming, what happened to my cousin? What happened to Carrie?

774
00:37:33.800 --> 00:37:36.119
She asked an officer to see the suicide note, but

775
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:39.920
he refused, saying it was evidence. Linda begged them, saying

776
00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:43.159
she wanted to see her daughter's final words. The officer

777
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:46.400
relented and showed Linda the note, briefly letting her view

778
00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:49.760
it through a clear plastic evidence bag. Lindsay read it

779
00:37:49.800 --> 00:37:52.639
over her shoulder and was more convinced that Carrie hadn't

780
00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:56.199
died by suicide. For one thing, the note would have

781
00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:59.480
been longer. Carrie would have mentioned a lot of different people.

782
00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:03.400
One notable absence was any mention of Carrie's brother, Adam.

783
00:38:03.960 --> 00:38:07.280
Lindsay felt sure that Carrie would at least have mentioned Adam.

784
00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:10.400
That's interesting you actually picked up on that after we

785
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:13.960
read the suicide note. That Carrie was the kind of

786
00:38:13.960 --> 00:38:16.039
person who had a lot of people. She loved a

787
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:19.239
lot of friends and family, and she would she would

788
00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:20.199
have mentioned other people.

789
00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:22.719
Was the note wasn't signed either? I'm guessing no, it

790
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:26.039
wasn't signed. At one thirty four am, a hearst pulled

791
00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:28.719
up to take Carrie's body to the mortuary for embalming,

792
00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:31.920
but none of Carrie's families knew that. They assumed the

793
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:36.159
body was being taken in for an autopsy. Eventually, Matt

794
00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:38.159
was alone at the house with Linda and Jim. The

795
00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:40.360
girls were still sleeping and the other family members had

796
00:38:40.360 --> 00:38:43.960
gone home. Matt repeated his account of the night's events

797
00:38:43.960 --> 00:38:46.840
to Linda and Jim. He said Carrie probably bought the

798
00:38:46.960 --> 00:38:50.159
unisum at Walmart on her way home from her job interview.

799
00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:53.480
Linda thought that was odd because she knew Carrie always

800
00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:57.000
bought the generic version of the sleep aid. Another thing

801
00:38:57.119 --> 00:38:59.599
Linda thought was odd she went into the bedroom with

802
00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:01.719
Matt I noticed that there were no wet spots on

803
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:05.119
the bed or the floor, despite Matt having said that

804
00:39:05.159 --> 00:39:07.559
Carrie had fluid coming out of her nose and mouth

805
00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:11.239
and saying that she had urinated. Matt told her he

806
00:39:11.239 --> 00:39:13.199
had cleaned up, but Lenna thought, when would he have

807
00:39:13.239 --> 00:39:15.960
done that. The police had just left, and he certainly

808
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:18.199
hadn't gone in and cleaned the bedroom while they were

809
00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:22.159
still examining the scene. The next day, Carrie's family members

810
00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:24.559
who had been there that night realized that the police

811
00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:29.639
never asked them any questions. Carrie's par family they must

812
00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:34.079
have been just irate at the way this situation was handled.

813
00:39:34.280 --> 00:39:36.719
Yeah, it was really it was really poorly handled.

814
00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:40.519
Matt was in a rush to have Carrie's funeral on

815
00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:43.000
Saturday morning, just a few hours after Carrie had been

816
00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:45.760
declared dead, he announced that her funeral would be the

817
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:49.239
next day, on Sunday. Jim and Linda were stunned. They

818
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:53.199
begged Matt to hold off for at least today. People

819
00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:55.480
had to be notified and plans had to be made.

820
00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:58.920
Some people would be traveling from out of town. Finally,

821
00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:02.440
Matt relented a yet reluctantly, and the funeral was set

822
00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:07.280
for Monday. So Carrie she was not cremated.

823
00:40:07.480 --> 00:40:09.320
She was not cremated, she was embalmed.

824
00:40:10.159 --> 00:40:12.880
At the visitation, Nancy, Kay and Lindsay discovered that the

825
00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:16.440
Justice at the Peace had not ordered an autopsy and

826
00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:20.000
Carrie's body had already been embalmed. They talked about what

827
00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:22.840
they could do. They wanted to talk to Linda about

828
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:26.639
their suspicions, but they decided the time wasn't right. When

829
00:40:26.719 --> 00:40:29.480
Joeanne Bristol showed up for the visitation and greeted Matt,

830
00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:33.079
he asked her point blank whether Carrie had told her

831
00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:36.159
that she thought Matt was planning to kill her, and

832
00:40:36.199 --> 00:40:38.960
whether she told her that she thought he was having

833
00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:42.519
an affair. Joanne said yes, Carrie had said both of

834
00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:43.360
those things to her.

835
00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:47.000
That's a shocking conversation, isn't it. I just can't. I

836
00:40:47.079 --> 00:40:49.880
have to imagine Carrie must have said something to Matt

837
00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:54.280
about talking to Joanne about her suspicions or something, because or.

838
00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:57.360
He was just paranoid because he knew that he had

839
00:40:57.960 --> 00:41:04.360
done something horrible to his wife. Was Joanne breaking patient confidentiality?

840
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:05.320
You know?

841
00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:08.039
I had that same thought when I was researching this

842
00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:10.800
case as well. The only thing I can think is

843
00:41:10.840 --> 00:41:13.960
that Joanne decided that what Carrie had told her was

844
00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:17.039
important enough that she had to tell people about it.

845
00:41:17.079 --> 00:41:18.599
But yeah, I wondered the same thing.

846
00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:21.559
What does that expire after a person dies?

847
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:24.840
I would imagine that if you think there are suspicious

848
00:41:24.880 --> 00:41:29.199
circumstances around someone's death that you are able to break

849
00:41:29.239 --> 00:41:31.360
that confidentiality, you look into that and be sure.

850
00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:31.760
Yeah.

851
00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:36.559
Steve Saldor was the pastor who officiated Carrie's funeral. He

852
00:41:36.679 --> 00:41:39.360
visited with the family and he left with Carrie's Bible,

853
00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:42.119
the one that doubled as a journal for her. He

854
00:41:42.199 --> 00:41:44.559
saw the entry dated less than a week before her death,

855
00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:47.800
where she wrote, quote, Lord, I am asking you to

856
00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:51.079
protect me from harm. I'm not sure what is going

857
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:53.719
on with Matt, but Lord helped me find peace with it.

858
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:57.119
End quote. Sailor didn't turn this over to police, but

859
00:41:57.280 --> 00:41:59.360
he must have found it alarming enough that he made

860
00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:02.840
a copy of it to keep. At the funeral, Matt

861
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:06.079
assured members of his congregation at Crossroads that he would

862
00:42:06.119 --> 00:42:09.639
be back to work that coming Sunday. People noticed that

863
00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:13.159
Matt didn't seem to show any emotion during the whole process.

864
00:42:13.840 --> 00:42:17.719
Matt's mom, Barbara later explained, quote, I saw Matt reacting

865
00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:20.079
like i'd react. We're not the type to break down

866
00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:23.159
and cry. Crying and screaming and wringing her hands is

867
00:42:23.199 --> 00:42:27.039
not who we are. If people judged on how he reacted,

868
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:28.800
I can't do anything about that.

869
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:33.320
After the funeral, Nancy, Kay and Linda got together to

870
00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:36.760
talk about the situation. They realized they should have raised

871
00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:40.199
their suspicions with the police much sooner. At this point,

872
00:42:40.239 --> 00:42:43.039
the scene had been cleaned thoroughly by Matt and his mom.

873
00:42:43.199 --> 00:42:46.440
They had even rearranged the furniture in the bedroom. Carrie's

874
00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:50.039
body had been embalmed and buried, and the death certificate

875
00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:52.519
was soon printed, listing the cause of death as an

876
00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:55.800
overdose of unisom and the manner of death as suicide.

877
00:42:56.920 --> 00:43:00.000
Lindsay called the Poison Control Center and asked about overdose

878
00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:03.599
on unism. The person she spoke to said she wasn't

879
00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:05.719
sure if it was even possible to die from that.

880
00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:10.239
Further research showed that it is possible, but it's pretty rare,

881
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:13.559
and if someone does die by overdosing on unism, it's

882
00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:16.800
a long drawn out process, not something that could possibly

883
00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:18.199
happen in forty five minutes.

884
00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:23.719
It's crazy that Lindsay had to investigate the death of Carrie.

885
00:43:23.800 --> 00:43:25.119
Oh, they're going to have to do a lot more

886
00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:28.760
investigating as well. They decided that the best thing to

887
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:31.159
do would be to ask Joeanne Bristol to talk to

888
00:43:31.199 --> 00:43:33.480
the police and tell them what Carrie had told her.

889
00:43:33.559 --> 00:43:37.280
Three days before she died. Joanne called Sergeant Cooper, the

890
00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:42.039
investigator in charge, who didn't seem to be taking her seriously. Frustrated,

891
00:43:42.119 --> 00:43:44.679
Joanne said, quote, what are you waiting for for Matt

892
00:43:44.719 --> 00:43:48.599
Baker to marry and kill a second wife? Unquote? Following

893
00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:52.159
that call, Kay also called Sergeant Cooper. It was clear

894
00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:54.199
to her that he didn't have any intention of doing

895
00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:58.800
any further investigation, the case was closed, Nancy Kay and

896
00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:01.559
Lindsay became more so that Matt had something to do

897
00:44:01.639 --> 00:44:04.280
with Carrie's death, but at the same time, they worried

898
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:07.239
that maybe their judgment was clouded due to their dislike

899
00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:10.440
of Matt. They decided they needed to talk to Linda

900
00:44:10.519 --> 00:44:13.440
and tell her of their suspicions. They knew it would

901
00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:16.440
be hard because Linda had been sheltered from hearing about

902
00:44:16.480 --> 00:44:19.800
a lot of the accusations against Matt and the bad

903
00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:23.559
behavior that many in the family had witnessed. At this point,

904
00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:26.559
Linda didn't have any reason to believe anything other than

905
00:44:26.639 --> 00:44:30.760
that Carrie had died by suicide. Meanwhile, Matt seemed to

906
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:34.000
be moving on with his life. Shortly after Carrie's death,

907
00:44:34.159 --> 00:44:37.159
Linda urged Matt to take the girls in for grief counseling,

908
00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:41.239
but Matt insisted that they were fine. Linda regularly called

909
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:44.199
Carrie's cell phone in the days following her death, just

910
00:44:44.239 --> 00:44:47.559
to hear her voice on her outgoing message. She was

911
00:44:47.559 --> 00:44:50.840
surprised when Matt deleted the outgoing message and replaced it

912
00:44:50.840 --> 00:44:53.079
with his own. Just a few days after she died,

913
00:44:54.320 --> 00:44:57.440
Matt returned to work at Waco Center for Youth on Wednesday,

914
00:44:57.559 --> 00:45:01.199
just five days after Carrie's death. Everyone was surprised to

915
00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:04.400
see him. When they offered their condolences, he would say

916
00:45:04.440 --> 00:45:08.079
things to them like, I'm fine. It wasn't a marriage anyway.

917
00:45:08.280 --> 00:45:12.440
Carrie was depressed, so we were just coexisting. He told

918
00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:15.000
people that Carrie was a bad mother and wife, and

919
00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:19.280
now that she was gone, the girls were happier. You know,

920
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:23.519
I'm sorry when you thought you couldn't hate this man anymore.

921
00:45:23.559 --> 00:45:25.559
I mean, if you could see my facial I'm just

922
00:45:26.360 --> 00:45:29.960
stunned at the audacity and horribleness of this.

923
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:34.079
I know, it's just it is so shocking. Matt also

924
00:45:34.119 --> 00:45:36.880
adopted a new look. He started using gel to make

925
00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:40.360
his hair spikier and started wearing new, younger looking clothes.

926
00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:44.239
On Good Friday, exactly one week after Carrie passed away,

927
00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:47.480
a friend of Carrie's ran into Matt at the grocery store.

928
00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:51.639
He was there with a pretty young blonde woman and

929
00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:54.840
a little blonde baby girl. In case you don't remember

930
00:45:54.840 --> 00:45:58.199
from part one, we talked about Vanessa Bowles, who had

931
00:45:58.239 --> 00:45:59.960
a one year old baby girl.

932
00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:02.000
Oh that's right, I thought that you were going to

933
00:46:02.039 --> 00:46:03.920
say that this was Matt's no, No No.

934
00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:08.079
The following week, Matt brought the girls over to see

935
00:46:08.119 --> 00:46:11.239
Linda and Jim. He told them he realized that Carrie

936
00:46:11.239 --> 00:46:13.719
had been suicidal for a long time, and now he

937
00:46:13.800 --> 00:46:16.800
realized that he had missed the signs. He told them

938
00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:19.639
things like Carrie would spend hours in her bedroom, unable

939
00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:22.039
to cope when she got home from work, and that

940
00:46:22.119 --> 00:46:24.400
she had stopped taking care of the girls, leaving it

941
00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:27.559
all to Matt. Linda knew these things weren't true, and

942
00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:31.000
she couldn't understand why Matt was saying them. When she

943
00:46:31.119 --> 00:46:33.599
brought up counseling for the girls again, Matt said they

944
00:46:33.639 --> 00:46:37.960
had already moved on two weeks. Kenzie was happy that

945
00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:40.199
she could jump on the bed now without Mommy getting

946
00:46:40.280 --> 00:46:42.440
mad at her, and Grace was already looking for a

947
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:45.199
new mother. I'm sorry, I'm laughing, but your your face just.

948
00:46:47.559 --> 00:46:50.360
Everything we say, like, I'm almost like I almost want

949
00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:52.679
to cry because it makes me so mad. Because Carrie

950
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:56.119
obviously was a wonderful mother and loved her girls, and

951
00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:58.119
like the worst thing that you could do, you not

952
00:46:58.199 --> 00:47:01.599
only kill her, want to like make her look bad

953
00:47:01.639 --> 00:47:04.440
to everyone, and you allegedly are a man of God,

954
00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:08.000
who preaches in front of people, you know, every Sunday

955
00:47:08.039 --> 00:47:10.440
to how to live their life and how to have

956
00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:14.480
God in your lives, and clearly he has.

957
00:47:14.599 --> 00:47:18.119
It's so shocking how horrible this man is and saying

958
00:47:18.159 --> 00:47:20.679
something like Grace was already looking for a new mother

959
00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:23.440
like less than two weeks after her mom died. That's

960
00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:28.719
just it's disgusting. After that conversation, Linda asked her husband

961
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:30.840
Jim to go to the police station and read the

962
00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:34.280
suicide note again. She wanted him to assess whether he

963
00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:37.400
thought Carrie had written it. He went to the police station,

964
00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:40.280
read the letter and told Linda that yes, he believed

965
00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:43.199
it sounded like Carrie. So Linda decided to put her

966
00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:46.639
concerns to rest and focus on grieving. There were many

967
00:47:46.639 --> 00:47:49.320
sightings of Matt with Vanessa Bowles in the days and

968
00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:53.280
weeks following Carrie's death. Kenzie's tenth birthday was just two

969
00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:55.840
weeks after her mother's death, and Matt planned a party

970
00:47:55.880 --> 00:47:58.480
for her. He rented a limo to pick Kenzie and

971
00:47:58.519 --> 00:48:01.079
her friends up at school, then drove them to her

972
00:48:01.119 --> 00:48:04.159
house for a slumber party. When the limo showed up

973
00:48:04.159 --> 00:48:07.079
at school, everyone gathered around to see the car pull up.

974
00:48:07.559 --> 00:48:10.079
The teachers at the school found it strange that Matt

975
00:48:10.119 --> 00:48:12.159
got out of the limo with a young blonde woman

976
00:48:12.360 --> 00:48:15.199
and even posed for pictures with his arm around Vanessa.

977
00:48:16.039 --> 00:48:20.440
So Vanessa must not be the nicest woman either.

978
00:48:20.840 --> 00:48:24.760
Yeah, we'll learn more about Vanessa, but yeah. One of

979
00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:27.440
Carrie's friends had volunteered to help Matt with the party.

980
00:48:28.039 --> 00:48:30.000
When she got to the house, she noticed that there

981
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:32.519
were no longer any pictures of Carrie around the house.

982
00:48:33.079 --> 00:48:35.280
Not only that, but on the fridge was a picture

983
00:48:35.320 --> 00:48:39.800
of Vanessa, her daughter, and Kenzie and Grace. Around two am,

984
00:48:39.880 --> 00:48:42.480
the girls were all watching a movie and Carrie's friend

985
00:48:42.519 --> 00:48:44.679
walked into the living room to see Matt sitting on

986
00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:47.639
the couch and Vanessa lying down resting her head in

987
00:48:47.719 --> 00:48:50.440
Matt's lap. This was too much for her, and she

988
00:48:50.559 --> 00:48:54.519
abruptly left the party. When parents arrived the next morning

989
00:48:54.559 --> 00:48:56.320
to pick up their kids, they were greeted at the

990
00:48:56.360 --> 00:48:59.840
door by Matt and Vanessa. Rumors started spreading around the

991
00:48:59.840 --> 00:49:03.599
small town of Hewittt. Those rumors heated up even more

992
00:49:03.639 --> 00:49:06.440
when Matt and Vanessa stopped into k Jewelers looking at

993
00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:10.320
engagement right. The woman who worked at the store recognized

994
00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:12.760
Matt from attending one of his churches, so this is

995
00:49:13.000 --> 00:49:15.840
two weeks. I don't know the exact date they were

996
00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:19.199
at K Jewelers, but it was not long after Carrie's death.

997
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:23.639
Nancy, Kay and Lindsay finally called Linda two weeks after

998
00:49:23.679 --> 00:49:26.000
Carrie's death and told her they needed to come and

999
00:49:26.079 --> 00:49:28.960
talk to her. They told Linda about all of Matt's

1000
00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:31.840
inappropriate behaviors that they had seen or heard about over

1001
00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:34.880
the years, and they told her about what Joanne Bristol

1002
00:49:34.920 --> 00:49:37.960
had said. Linda didn't want to hear it. She became

1003
00:49:38.079 --> 00:49:41.239
angry and told them to drop it. They said, okay,

1004
00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:44.559
consider it dropped. As the women were leaving, they chatted

1005
00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:47.719
briefly outside by their cars. Lindsay said, are we going

1006
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:52.559
to drop it? Kay said no, absolutely not. It didn't

1007
00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:54.920
take long for Linda and Jim to realize that Matt

1008
00:49:54.960 --> 00:49:58.079
was starting to put up barriers between them and their granddaughters.

1009
00:49:58.679 --> 00:50:02.159
Get togethers were canceled, excuses made, and not only that,

1010
00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:05.199
but when they did get together, Kenzie started acting out

1011
00:50:05.239 --> 00:50:08.800
and being unkind to her grandparents, aunts, and uncles. It

1012
00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:10.960
was clear that Matt had been saying things to turn

1013
00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:15.800
them against the Doolan family. Kay sent Matt a nice email,

1014
00:50:15.880 --> 00:50:19.280
beseeching him to remember that the Dulans loved their granddaughters

1015
00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:22.119
and wanted to be part of their lives. Matt responded

1016
00:50:22.119 --> 00:50:24.559
with a diatribe saying the Dulans needed to come to

1017
00:50:24.679 --> 00:50:28.119
terms with Carrie's death. He also said on the email

1018
00:50:28.159 --> 00:50:31.480
that Carrie had been a bad wife and uninvolved as

1019
00:50:31.519 --> 00:50:31.880
a mother.

1020
00:50:32.119 --> 00:50:34.280
What a nice thing to say to the relatives of

1021
00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:35.840
your wife who has died.

1022
00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:39.679
Kay showed the email to her sister, Linda, who was

1023
00:50:39.800 --> 00:50:44.559
aghast same Linda. Linda started hearing things about Matt from

1024
00:50:44.599 --> 00:50:47.480
other people. She heard that Matt was telling people that

1025
00:50:47.559 --> 00:50:50.320
Carrie's interview on the last day of her life hadn't

1026
00:50:50.320 --> 00:50:54.119
gone well. Linda knew that it had, she had spoken

1027
00:50:54.199 --> 00:50:57.199
with her daughter right after the interview. Also, people were

1028
00:50:57.239 --> 00:51:00.159
reporting sightings of Matt with Vanessa acting giddy like a

1029
00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:03.880
schoolboy with a crush. All of these things made Linda

1030
00:51:03.920 --> 00:51:07.079
start believing that maybe her sisters and niece were onto

1031
00:51:07.119 --> 00:51:11.199
something with their suspicions. On Mother's Day two thousand and six,

1032
00:51:11.320 --> 00:51:14.079
the girls were over visiting Linda and Jim. It didn't

1033
00:51:14.119 --> 00:51:16.920
go well. Kenzie accused her grandma of being mean to

1034
00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:20.719
her daddy. She said that she and Grace really liked Vanessa,

1035
00:51:20.840 --> 00:51:24.639
but that Linda and Jim didn't like her. The next day,

1036
00:51:24.639 --> 00:51:28.400
Matt sat Linda an email accusing her of physically yanking

1037
00:51:28.519 --> 00:51:31.360
Kenzie by the arm and hurting her. That would be

1038
00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:33.920
the last time he would voluntary allow the girls to

1039
00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:38.159
see their maternal grandparents. He even stopped having them attend

1040
00:51:38.119 --> 00:51:41.119
to his Sunday service to ensure the girls didn't see

1041
00:51:41.159 --> 00:51:47.079
their grandparents even then. This guy is unbelievable. Three weeks

1042
00:51:47.119 --> 00:51:49.480
after Mother's Day, Matt sent an email to Linda and

1043
00:51:49.559 --> 00:51:52.239
Jim informing them that Kensie and Grace wouldn't be seeing

1044
00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:56.199
them that summer for any extended period. He had decided

1045
00:51:56.199 --> 00:51:59.119
it would not be in their best interests. Linda and

1046
00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:03.000
Jim decided to sue for visitation. Three days later, their

1047
00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:07.280
attorney filed a petition for visitation and court ordered counseling

1048
00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:11.320
for the girls. Good for them. A couple of weeks later,

1049
00:52:11.360 --> 00:52:13.679
an agreement was reached where Linda and Jim would have

1050
00:52:13.760 --> 00:52:16.800
Kensie and Grace two Sundays and one Saturday a month,

1051
00:52:17.159 --> 00:52:20.559
in addition to some weekends during the summer, Matt agreed

1052
00:52:20.599 --> 00:52:23.239
to get counseling for the girls, but both parties were

1053
00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:28.599
prohibited from making disparaging remarks about the other. One day,

1054
00:52:28.639 --> 00:52:31.519
Linda got her AT and T bill and was reminded

1055
00:52:31.559 --> 00:52:34.400
that she had added Matt and Carrey's cell phones to

1056
00:52:34.440 --> 00:52:36.800
their family plan. I remember you telling us to put

1057
00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:39.679
a pin in that. She was angry at Matt about

1058
00:52:39.679 --> 00:52:41.960
everything that was going on, so she told her niece

1059
00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:46.039
Lindsay that she was going to cancel Matt's account. Lindsay said,

1060
00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:50.039
I have a better idea. Get the phone records and

1061
00:52:50.119 --> 00:52:53.880
look through Matt's calls. I bet you'll find some interesting things.

1062
00:52:54.760 --> 00:52:56.199
I like this, Lindsay, I.

1063
00:52:56.280 --> 00:52:59.119
Like all of these women are just they're heroic.

1064
00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:02.199
Linda called AT and T and asked if they could

1065
00:53:02.239 --> 00:53:04.639
see a report of all the phone calls from Matt's

1066
00:53:04.639 --> 00:53:09.159
phone over the past few months. It's so genius. I

1067
00:53:09.159 --> 00:53:11.760
love it. They said, sure, it's on your account, so

1068
00:53:11.880 --> 00:53:14.639
you're entitled to see all the records. The AT and

1069
00:53:14.719 --> 00:53:17.280
T rep said they would mail a report, but that

1070
00:53:17.360 --> 00:53:20.639
Linda could also view it online and instructed her how

1071
00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:23.679
to do it. After getting off the call, Linda pulled

1072
00:53:23.760 --> 00:53:25.760
up the data online, and she saw there was a

1073
00:53:25.840 --> 00:53:29.039
number that Matt called frequently, starting about three months before

1074
00:53:29.079 --> 00:53:32.199
Carrie died. A quick Internet search showed that the number

1075
00:53:32.239 --> 00:53:35.760
belonged to Larry Bowles, the music minister from Matt's church

1076
00:53:36.119 --> 00:53:39.440
and father of Vanessa Bulls, who also happened to live

1077
00:53:39.519 --> 00:53:42.639
at home with her parents. Looking at the call records,

1078
00:53:42.679 --> 00:53:46.000
Linda saw something else that was strange. Starting within days

1079
00:53:46.079 --> 00:53:49.920
after Carrie's death, Matt was still calling Carrie's phone and

1080
00:53:49.960 --> 00:53:52.239
spending a lot of time on calls to her phone

1081
00:53:53.119 --> 00:53:56.880
that is strange. From April seventeen through the twenty sixth,

1082
00:53:56.960 --> 00:54:00.000
he had called Carrie's number one hundred eighty one time

1083
00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:02.719
times and talked for a total of one thy, six

1084
00:54:02.840 --> 00:54:06.440
hundred and ten minutes. The only explanation that made any

1085
00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:09.239
sense was that Matt had given Carrie's phone to someone else.

1086
00:54:09.639 --> 00:54:13.000
Vanessa maybe turned out that that was the case.

1087
00:54:14.199 --> 00:54:17.920
Unfortunately, AT and T somehow mistakenly mailed a report to

1088
00:54:18.079 --> 00:54:21.440
Matt's address, which must have tipped him off that Linda

1089
00:54:21.519 --> 00:54:24.880
was having suspicions. Linda soon heard from a friend who

1090
00:54:24.880 --> 00:54:28.360
spotted Matt and Vanessa out shopping for new cell phones.

1091
00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:33.000
Her suspicions growing. Linda met with Joanne Bristol, who repeated

1092
00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:35.960
the same story about Carrie's final session with her, her

1093
00:54:35.960 --> 00:54:38.119
fears that Matt was planning to kill her, and the

1094
00:54:38.159 --> 00:54:41.880
crushed up pills in Matt's briefcase. She told Linda that

1095
00:54:41.920 --> 00:54:45.000
Carrie had been excited about her new job prospect and

1096
00:54:45.079 --> 00:54:48.480
her epiphany about finding a way to help other parents

1097
00:54:48.519 --> 00:54:52.039
who had lost children. That was enough for Linda. She

1098
00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:56.000
was finally convinced that Carrie's death was suspicious and needed

1099
00:54:56.039 --> 00:54:59.400
to be investigated. If the police weren't going to do it,

1100
00:54:59.559 --> 00:55:02.039
she and her sisters and niece would have to take

1101
00:55:02.119 --> 00:55:07.360
matters into their own hands. Oh, this is making me emotional,

1102
00:55:07.519 --> 00:55:09.920
Like these you know, these women are just heroes.

1103
00:55:10.079 --> 00:55:12.719
And that's the part about the case that makes me

1104
00:55:12.800 --> 00:55:14.079
really emotional too, is.

1105
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:16.920
They just they shouldn't have to do it. But getting

1106
00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:18.320
justice for your loved one.

1107
00:55:18.239 --> 00:55:22.199
It's just very it's heartwarming.

1108
00:55:22.480 --> 00:55:23.400
Yeah.

1109
00:55:23.800 --> 00:55:26.599
Linda called Nancy, Kay and Lindsay back together to talk

1110
00:55:26.599 --> 00:55:29.920
about next steps. The women started referring to themselves as

1111
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:33.559
Charlie's angels. Linda was Charlie, while Nancy Kay and Lindsay

1112
00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:36.719
were the angels. They staked out Matt's house to see

1113
00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:39.760
if Vanessa was there. They called other numbers from Matt's

1114
00:55:39.800 --> 00:55:42.199
phone bill and discovered that he had been talking to

1115
00:55:42.239 --> 00:55:45.119
a realtor about buying a new house. They did more

1116
00:55:45.119 --> 00:55:48.360
research on unison, finding that it was virtually impossible for

1117
00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:51.199
someone to die of an overdose within forty five minutes.

1118
00:55:51.840 --> 00:55:54.559
They went to Hollywood Video to confirm that Matt came

1119
00:55:54.599 --> 00:55:57.480
in that night. The manager shared with them that Matt

1120
00:55:57.519 --> 00:55:59.920
had indeed rented When a Man Loves a Woman at

1121
00:56:00.039 --> 00:56:03.360
eleven forty eight pm that night. He wouldn't show them

1122
00:56:03.400 --> 00:56:05.880
the surveillance footage, but he agreed to ensure that it

1123
00:56:05.920 --> 00:56:09.039
didn't get deleted in case the police came looking for it.

1124
00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:12.400
Kay called Billy Martin, the Justice of the peace, who

1125
00:56:12.440 --> 00:56:15.199
had closed the case that night without ever examining the

1126
00:56:15.199 --> 00:56:19.039
scene or speaking with anyone other than the investigator on duty.

1127
00:56:19.760 --> 00:56:22.320
Kay asked him why an autopsy had not been ordered.

1128
00:56:22.679 --> 00:56:25.039
Martin said that it was because of the suicide note.

1129
00:56:25.199 --> 00:56:27.400
When Kay told him that the note was typed with

1130
00:56:27.440 --> 00:56:31.159
no signature, Martin seemed surprised he had assumed that it

1131
00:56:31.199 --> 00:56:35.039
was handwritten. Kay shared some of their other suspicions, and

1132
00:56:35.119 --> 00:56:37.960
Martin promised to call the Hewitt Police department that day

1133
00:56:38.480 --> 00:56:41.920
to see if he could get the investigation reopened. It's

1134
00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:44.440
not clear whether Billy Martin made that call or not,

1135
00:56:44.639 --> 00:56:47.599
but Charlie's angels weren't about to let the matter rest.

1136
00:56:48.239 --> 00:56:50.559
They chased down the Hewitt Police over the next couple

1137
00:56:50.559 --> 00:56:53.360
of days and told them about their call with Billy Martin.

1138
00:56:54.039 --> 00:56:57.519
Sergeant Cooper asked for Joanne Bristol's number, saying he would

1139
00:56:57.559 --> 00:56:59.880
call her to get her account of her session with Carrie.

1140
00:57:00.679 --> 00:57:02.800
When he still hadn't called her by the next day,

1141
00:57:03.280 --> 00:57:05.719
the women decided that it was time to meet personally

1142
00:57:05.800 --> 00:57:09.039
with Sergeant Cooper. Kay and Jim went to the station

1143
00:57:09.159 --> 00:57:11.239
the next day, bringing all of the notes that they

1144
00:57:11.280 --> 00:57:14.719
had accumulated, including copies of the phone bill showing that

1145
00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:17.800
Matt had been calling Vanessa for months before Carrie's death.

1146
00:57:18.639 --> 00:57:21.679
Kay pushed Sergeant Cooper to get Carrie's body exoomed and

1147
00:57:21.719 --> 00:57:25.280
to perform an autopsy. Cooper said a judge would need

1148
00:57:25.280 --> 00:57:28.480
to order that. Kay also pushed for Cooper to speak

1149
00:57:28.480 --> 00:57:32.480
with Joanne Bristol, although Cooper said it wasn't necessary. Kay

1150
00:57:32.559 --> 00:57:35.000
called Joanne, who showed up at the police station that

1151
00:57:35.119 --> 00:57:38.280
afternoon with seven pages of notes that she had taken

1152
00:57:38.400 --> 00:57:42.239
at Carrie's last session. It still didn't feel like Cooper

1153
00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:45.480
was taking them seriously, so Linda composed a long letter

1154
00:57:45.559 --> 00:57:49.880
to him, which Jim hand delivered, suggesting some logical next steps.

1155
00:57:50.679 --> 00:57:54.719
Linda suggested getting the surveillance footage from Hollywood Video, checking

1156
00:57:54.760 --> 00:57:57.639
Matt's bank records to confirm that he had purchased gas

1157
00:57:57.679 --> 00:58:01.559
that night, and pushing for an autopsy and toxicology report.

1158
00:58:01.960 --> 00:58:05.400
Can you imagine the sergeant getting this letter from a

1159
00:58:05.440 --> 00:58:08.199
civilian basically saying, here's what I suggest you do in

1160
00:58:08.280 --> 00:58:11.480
the investigation. I'm sure he did not take kindly to that.

1161
00:58:12.559 --> 00:58:16.400
Well, they should have done it. Initially thought that, yeah,

1162
00:58:16.400 --> 00:58:18.199
they are totally in the wrong here with how they

1163
00:58:18.199 --> 00:58:18.960
investigated it.

1164
00:58:19.840 --> 00:58:22.039
Although Linda and the rest of the family believed that

1165
00:58:22.119 --> 00:58:25.400
Cooper wasn't doing anything, he did in fact follow up

1166
00:58:25.400 --> 00:58:28.679
on at least some of the information. He stopped by

1167
00:58:28.719 --> 00:58:31.119
the Waco Center for Youth and talked to the director

1168
00:58:31.159 --> 00:58:34.400
about the pills in Matt's briefcase and his story that

1169
00:58:34.480 --> 00:58:37.880
residents had spit the pills out. The director said there

1170
00:58:37.960 --> 00:58:41.079
was no record of Matt reporting anything about this. If

1171
00:58:41.119 --> 00:58:43.079
that had been happening, it would be a big deal,

1172
00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:46.000
and there were controls in place to ensure that residents

1173
00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:49.159
took their meds. As May drew to a close, the

1174
00:58:49.239 --> 00:58:53.440
Dulns were growing increasingly frustrated not hearing anything and not

1175
00:58:53.480 --> 00:58:57.360
making any progress on exhumation. Every day that went by

1176
00:58:57.480 --> 00:59:01.400
made it more likely that evidence would be lost. Linda

1177
00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:04.079
spoke with a friend who suggested that she contact the

1178
00:59:04.119 --> 00:59:07.960
Texas Rangers for help. The Texas Rangers are essentially like

1179
00:59:08.000 --> 00:59:11.159
the FBI, but just for the state of Texas. They

1180
00:59:11.199 --> 00:59:14.480
have statewide jurisdiction, but they generally don't get involved in

1181
00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:18.199
cases unless they're invited to help by local law enforcement.

1182
00:59:19.039 --> 00:59:21.880
Linda was put in touch with a ranger named Matt Coffin.

1183
00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:25.639
He listened carefully as Linda went through her whole story.

1184
00:59:26.199 --> 00:59:29.280
He seemed sympathetic and wanted to help, but he advised

1185
00:59:29.320 --> 00:59:33.079
Linda that they needed to go through the proper channels. First,

1186
00:59:33.199 --> 00:59:35.840
she needed to speak with the detective in charge, then

1187
00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:39.159
escalate to the chief of the Hewitt Police Department. If

1188
00:59:39.199 --> 00:59:41.719
you're not getting help, he said, then write a letter

1189
00:59:41.760 --> 00:59:45.039
to the DA and ask him to request assistance from

1190
00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:49.039
the Texas Rangers. On May twenty sixth, Jim and Linda

1191
00:59:49.119 --> 00:59:51.800
went back to the Hewitt Police Department for another conference

1192
00:59:51.840 --> 00:59:54.719
with Sergeant Cooper. They asked if there had been any

1193
00:59:54.760 --> 00:59:58.199
progress on getting Carrie's body exzoomed, and Cooper said, sorry,

1194
00:59:58.239 --> 01:00:01.039
we don't have probable cause, so the judge won't go

1195
01:00:01.159 --> 01:00:04.079
for it. Linda got frustrated and said, I want to

1196
01:00:04.119 --> 01:00:07.800
talk with your boss. Cooper's captain joined the discussion, and

1197
01:00:07.960 --> 01:00:11.519
Cooper eventually admitted that he had never actually spoken with

1198
01:00:11.639 --> 01:00:17.679
Judge Martin about exhamation or an autopsy. Flabbergasted, Linda fired back, quote,

1199
01:00:18.039 --> 01:00:19.960
you told us you were trying to get an autopsy

1200
01:00:19.960 --> 01:00:23.079
and the judge was resisting. So, Sergeant, which one is it,

1201
01:00:23.480 --> 01:00:26.360
Billy Martin won't exume my daughter's body or you haven't

1202
01:00:26.360 --> 01:00:30.400
even talked to him. Get your story straight. Unquote. Cooper,

1203
01:00:30.559 --> 01:00:34.519
who was probably not accustomed to being interrogated himself, stomped

1204
01:00:34.519 --> 01:00:37.039
out of the room in anger, leaving his captain with

1205
01:00:37.159 --> 01:00:40.320
Jim and Linda. Linda then demanded a meeting with the

1206
01:00:40.400 --> 01:00:44.639
Chief of police today. They got their meeting that afternoon,

1207
01:00:44.679 --> 01:00:47.880
but Chief Barton said they were wasting his time rehashing

1208
01:00:47.920 --> 01:00:50.719
things that they had already discussed with Sergeant Cooper, who

1209
01:00:50.840 --> 01:00:53.559
was in charge of the case. He was clearly going

1210
01:00:53.599 --> 01:00:56.519
to back his detective, regardless of what evidence Linda and

1211
01:00:56.599 --> 01:01:00.000
Jim brought forth. After Linda and Jim left the place

1212
01:01:00.079 --> 01:01:02.719
Least station that day, someone who worked at the police

1213
01:01:02.719 --> 01:01:06.119
station later reported seeing Chief Barton stomping around the station

1214
01:01:06.639 --> 01:01:09.840
and overheard him say, quote that bitch killed herself and

1215
01:01:09.840 --> 01:01:14.000
our parents are fucking crazy unquote. The next step was

1216
01:01:14.039 --> 01:01:17.679
to write a letter to the McClellan County DA John Segrist.

1217
01:01:18.400 --> 01:01:21.719
Linda sent the letter on June second, requesting that Segrist

1218
01:01:21.800 --> 01:01:24.400
call in the Texas Rangers to take over ownership of

1219
01:01:24.440 --> 01:01:29.679
the investigation. Secrist replied soon after, expressing his sympathies but

1220
01:01:29.840 --> 01:01:31.880
making it clear that he was not going to help.

1221
01:01:32.280 --> 01:01:35.719
The letter concluded, quote, my office is not involved and

1222
01:01:35.840 --> 01:01:39.920
won't become involved in the inquiry at this stage. Unquote.

1223
01:01:42.400 --> 01:01:45.440
Your blood pressure at a dangerous.

1224
01:01:45.079 --> 01:01:48.440
Level now, I mean, all they want is justice for

1225
01:01:48.840 --> 01:01:49.679
their daughter, and.

1226
01:01:50.119 --> 01:01:53.639
Really all they want an investigation. They weren't even they

1227
01:01:53.639 --> 01:01:56.559
weren't even saying that Matt killed her. They were saying,

1228
01:01:56.599 --> 01:01:59.159
we just want to know for sure what happened, and

1229
01:02:00.039 --> 01:02:03.519
they weren't getting answers, and they weren't getting any help.

1230
01:02:03.719 --> 01:02:09.480
It's just so frustrating. Absolutely, I think that is where

1231
01:02:09.480 --> 01:02:13.079
we are going to end part two. What the quest

1232
01:02:13.159 --> 01:02:22.159
for justice will continue in part three.

1233
01:02:22.519 --> 01:02:26.239
During snack time, when you gave the little hearts, I

1234
01:02:26.280 --> 01:02:30.039
believe I said, oh, they're like Paulmiers and this will

1235
01:02:30.039 --> 01:02:33.039
haunt me for the next seven or eight years. Yes,

1236
01:02:33.679 --> 01:02:37.280
I should have said, Paulmier. I know you and very uncouth.

1237
01:02:37.760 --> 01:02:39.960
I know you've been thinking about nothing but that for

1238
01:02:40.039 --> 01:02:41.400
the last hour half.

1239
01:02:41.840 --> 01:02:45.400
I mean I did listen. I know to your case.

1240
01:02:45.440 --> 01:02:48.400
You did a good job. I know it's quite a

1241
01:02:48.440 --> 01:02:49.159
story there.

1242
01:02:49.400 --> 01:02:51.400
Yeah, I know how you do get haunted. I'm the

1243
01:02:51.440 --> 01:02:54.440
same way. I mispronounced something. I can't stop thinking about it.

1244
01:02:54.840 --> 01:02:58.760
Mispronounce things all the time and it's okay, but there's

1245
01:02:58.800 --> 01:03:01.400
always something every episode. But it's usually like, oh, I

1246
01:03:01.480 --> 01:03:04.280
was going to talk about this, like Shenan Watts's dog.

1247
01:03:04.360 --> 01:03:06.400
That one still haunts me that I didn't mention it

1248
01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:10.960
during the case. But yeah, I think we just forget

1249
01:03:11.199 --> 01:03:12.800
about things that we want to talk about.

1250
01:03:12.920 --> 01:03:15.719
We do well. Speaking of snacks, I had an interesting

1251
01:03:15.760 --> 01:03:18.880
little tidbit. When I was researching snacks from Texas to

1252
01:03:18.920 --> 01:03:21.639
try to find something I had. I did not know this,

1253
01:03:21.719 --> 01:03:23.639
and I'd be I'd appreciate it if one of our

1254
01:03:23.679 --> 01:03:26.800
listeners from Texas could verify this. But did you know

1255
01:03:26.840 --> 01:03:28.800
that people in Texas when they go to the movie

1256
01:03:28.880 --> 01:03:31.880
theater they eat pickles at the movie theater?

1257
01:03:32.079 --> 01:03:33.480
Really, that's so funny.

1258
01:03:33.719 --> 01:03:38.079
Apparently it is a very common thing that people order pickles.

1259
01:03:38.079 --> 01:03:41.079
That they're called movie theater pickles is what they're referred to.

1260
01:03:41.159 --> 01:03:43.360
And and is it just like a whole It's just

1261
01:03:43.400 --> 01:03:44.079
a whole.

1262
01:03:43.800 --> 01:03:45.559
Big pickle. It used to be they would be in

1263
01:03:45.599 --> 01:03:48.599
a container and they would take them out with like tongs,

1264
01:03:48.599 --> 01:03:50.920
but now they're usually, I guess, come in bags. But

1265
01:03:50.960 --> 01:03:53.000
the other interesting thing that I saw in this article

1266
01:03:53.079 --> 01:03:56.320
was that people in Texas are surprised that no one

1267
01:03:56.400 --> 01:03:58.559
else does this. They if they move to another state,

1268
01:03:58.599 --> 01:04:00.360
they'll go to the movie theater and they'll be like, okay,

1269
01:04:00.400 --> 01:04:02.519
I get a pickle, and the people the movie there

1270
01:04:02.519 --> 01:04:05.880
will be like, what are you insane? And some people

1271
01:04:06.159 --> 01:04:09.079
even put it in their popcorn and they refer to

1272
01:04:09.119 --> 01:04:11.760
that as a popcorn pickle, much like we would put

1273
01:04:11.800 --> 01:04:14.519
Eminem's or sour Patch Kids in our popcorn.

1274
01:04:15.280 --> 01:04:16.920
Well, that's funny. When you said that, I was like,

1275
01:04:17.000 --> 01:04:19.519
you know, a dill flavored popcorn might be good, but

1276
01:04:19.840 --> 01:04:22.920
when a pickle make your popcorn soggy? Or is it

1277
01:04:23.000 --> 01:04:24.960
just to get the pickle juice on the popcorn to

1278
01:04:24.960 --> 01:04:25.960
make it a little.

1279
01:04:26.199 --> 01:04:28.679
I don't know. I couldn't tell you, but yeah, it's

1280
01:04:28.760 --> 01:04:31.519
very strange. As someone who does not like pickles. That's

1281
01:04:31.559 --> 01:04:33.719
not appeal to me at all. But I don't know.

1282
01:04:34.159 --> 01:04:35.039
I love pickles.

1283
01:04:35.119 --> 01:04:35.840
Yeah maybe you would.

1284
01:04:35.920 --> 01:04:38.320
I don't like like a hole like I wouldn't chop

1285
01:04:38.360 --> 01:04:41.119
down on a whole pickle, but I like the dill

1286
01:04:41.239 --> 01:04:44.800
chips or you know, a spear. But yeah, you hate

1287
01:04:44.800 --> 01:04:45.199
a pickle.

1288
01:04:45.360 --> 01:04:47.360
Well, I don't mind sweet pickles. I actually kind of

1289
01:04:47.360 --> 01:04:48.000
like sweet pickles.

1290
01:04:48.039 --> 01:04:50.639
That's funny because I hate right. I don't know how

1291
01:04:50.639 --> 01:04:52.119
we've made it for so long.

1292
01:04:53.840 --> 01:04:55.239
I know, I know it's crazy.

1293
01:04:56.199 --> 01:04:58.880
Well, if you can't wait to hear how this case ends,

1294
01:04:59.280 --> 01:05:01.760
you can join us on patreon dot com slash Love

1295
01:05:01.840 --> 01:05:05.280
Marykill or five dollars a month for early ad free

1296
01:05:05.360 --> 01:05:09.119
access and typically when we have multi part episodes, those

1297
01:05:09.159 --> 01:05:13.159
are available immediately or soon after, and.

1298
01:05:13.199 --> 01:05:15.719
Thank you all for listening. You can find us on

1299
01:05:15.840 --> 01:05:20.239
social media, send us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail

1300
01:05:20.280 --> 01:05:21.400
dot com. We love to hear.

1301
01:05:21.320 --> 01:05:24.599
From you and thank you all so much for your support,

1302
01:05:24.880 --> 01:05:28.719
your continued support and encouragement. It means the world to us.

1303
01:05:29.199 --> 01:05:31.440
Until next time, don't kill your husband and don't kill

1304
01:05:31.480 --> 01:06:24.360
your wife. I am rich, I am rich. And if

1305
01:06:24.360 --> 01:06:26.239
there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years of.

1306
01:06:26.239 --> 01:06:29.719
Marriage, some days you're going to feel like carrying yours.

1307
01:06:31.480 --> 01:06:34.159
Some days your wife is a little loopy.