Kari and Matt Baker - Part 1 of 3

0:00 Hi. I am Rich and I'm Tina. And if there's one thing we've learned, and over twenty years of marriage. Some days you'll feel like killing your husband. And some days you'll feel like killing your wife. Welcome to love, Mary Kill. Hey Tina, Hey Rich. How are you? I'm great? How are you? I'm doing okay, A little tired. Yeah, because something kind of weird happened this morning. And I don't know if it's Friday the thirteenth or what, but I woke I had hard time sleeping, and I woke up and I was like, you know, I'm just going to get out of bed. It was six am, and I got out of bed, and right as I got out of bed, the light next to my bed turned on. And I swear to you, I didn't touch anything. I used my phone to turn it on, but I didn't have my phone in my hand. My phone was locked. And it freaked me out. Like I got up and the light just turned on. I stood up, and I think it woke you up too, and I felt bad.

1:04 Well, it was fine, but we have our house is a smart house, a smart house, a relatively smart house, not only because we live here, but we have a lot of gadgets that are connected to the Internet, as a lot of people do these days, and it's great when it works, but sometimes it can kind of scare you a little bit. I think it was some kind of Friday the thirteenth sort of supernatural things. I'm just going to go with that where yes, I have a snack for you. Would you like it's a pair, because we have like a dozen ripe pairs that they all became ripe but the same. Oh that always happens. No, it is not a pair. I'm sorry, but you can get a pair after we're done.

1:44 We already had one time. It was already a little like twelve hours past its prime. So I missed. Oh that's too bad, should have gotten up at two am. Well, today's the case we're going to talk about today is set in Texas, and you know I try to. Start bright and big at night. You know you were gonna bless us with a song today that is very nice. But so I picked up some tortilla chips, Julio's Tortilla chips, which are from Texas Amazon. No, these came from the grocery store. Okay, And I got a box from Amazon. That'll be that'll be in part two. And I got some salsa from Texas, also some Mataos gourmet salsa, and then I don't like, oh well okay. And then I also got this is not from Texas, but I got some Valveda caso kind of salsa. So I just you know, Valveda can't can't beat it, So I thought.

2:37 You can't know you can't. Thought it would be good to try their their caso as well. Well, awesome, thank you, all. Right, we'll be right back. How did you like Julio's tortillo? They were different. They're corni er, which sounds silly, but we like there corny. Didn't they say I'm not the biggest corn person. I was saying that, like metaphorically, gotcha. Yeah. The Felvito was Velvedo, and I do like the Matteo salsa I've gotten. It was pretty good Costco before and you did not like it. You were like, oh well, I hate this kind of salsa, so you didn't mind it today.

3:20 Maybe you just I only took one bite, but it seemed okay to me. I really like the corn. The tortilla chips though, they're very a little lighter and crispier, yeah than kind of the heavier tortilla chip. So I was just laughing. Do you know what the first ingredient on the bag says? What the first ingredient is? Tortilla chip? Okay? I like that. There's a cute little picture of Julio and Lilia Garcia on the bag. Oh that's very nice. I would give those a seven out of ten, the salsa nine out of ten, and the Vealvedo I don't know. I like it. I like Colvito. It's really hot, but it has to be really hot. I guess i'd give it like a seven out of ten.

4:01 Okay, I'm gonna give the chips eight out of ten, salsa seven out of ten, alvita seven out of you give. Us also a seven out of ten. That's really bizarre, that's weird. Well, I guess you're a new man every day. I A you never know. Before we get started, I want to give a quick shout out to our listener friend Brittany, who told me that she is training for a marathon and that we have been getting through her through her training sessions. Is amazing. I know that is very exciting. Awesome. Good luck, So I know. We love to hear where you guys are listening to us. It just is really it's really fun. It makes our day, Yeah, it really does. We go for a lot of dog walks. Some people take us on family vacations, so.

4:43 Some people fall asleep to us. True, it's hard to believe, but yes, So thanks everyone, and you know, send us a DM and let us know where you're listening to us from. Well, a warning before we get into today's case. This episode will contain descript that may be disturbing, including sexual assault and the death of a child, so please listen with care. Today's case is a request from our listener, Natalie. Thanks for the recommendation, Natalie, we appreciate it. If you have sent us a recommendation, thank you so much. We appreciate it. We'd love to hear from everyone. We have a pretty long list at this point. It's a big backlaw. You've sent us sent us a request a while back, feel free to send it again. I am getting better about adding it to the spreadsheet, but I do have lists on my phone, on my computer and the Excel spreadsheets.

5:34 All over the place, and we do look at every request. Some of them we look at and we just can't do because there's not enough information or we just aren't able to find enough research on it. But we do appreciate getting requests and we take a look at everyone. I did want to say before we get into today's case, it's going to be a long one. I think it'll be a three parter because there is a lot and I think it's a really really interesting case. Source for the case is a book called Deadly Little Secrets by Catherine Casey, really really good book, full of really good details, and that's why I wanted to make sure we go into everything, and I think there will be a lot to discuss as well. There's also the entire trial is on Court TV as well, and there's other shows and articles, so there's a lot of information about it and I think, like I said, I think it's really interesting. The case does make me emotional as well, so be prepared for that.

6:25 I'm going to try my best. But it's really about a story about perseverance, a fight for justice against all odds, and really just a family's love and they wouldn't give up in the face of adversity, and so I think it's a great story on the surface, Matt and Carrie Baker seemed like the perfect couple with the perfect family, living in the Waco, Texas area. Matt was a Baptist minister and Carrie was a third grade teacher. They were raising two beautiful daughters, Kenzie and Grace, who were nine and five, respectively in April two thousand and six. But Carrie's family and friends knew that she had struggled. Seven years earlier, she and Matt had lost another daughter, Cassidy, to a brain tumor, soon after her first birthday. Carrie worked through her grief with the support of family, friends, and therapy, but it was still hard, especially when the anniversary of Cassidy's death approached every year. More recently, Carrie had confided in friends about the marital problems that she and Matt had been having. Carrie didn't know what was wrong, but she knew that something had changed. Carrie had been steadfastly supportive of Matt through the years, through all of his schooling, and through his many jobs at different churches, community centers, and juvenile facilities, but now he didn't seem to want her anymore, and she wondered what was going on.

7:42 She wanted to fix it, no matter what it took. In early April two thousand and six, Carrie saw a doctor about her increasing anxiety and went back to the counselor she had seen years earlier after Cassidy had died. And then on Friday evening April seventh, Matt came back from the video store to find their bedroom doors or locked. He forced the door open and found Carrie lying on the bed, unresponsive. He called nine one one and attempted CPR, but it was too late. Carrie was dead. The empty bottle of sleeping pills and the suicide note, along with the background Matt provided to the police about the loss of their child and Carrie's history of depression, made this an open and shutcase. It was quickly determined to be suicide, but Carrie's family and friends had a hard time accepting that conclusion. They saw someone who was a fighter and would do anything to be there for her two living daughters.

8:34 They were determined to find out the truth, no matter how long it would take or how difficult it would be, and it would be a long and challenging journey. Carrie was born in Salt Lake City, Utah, in nineteen seventy four. Her mom was Linda and her dad was Scott. We don't know Scott's last name because he tragically died in a motorcycle accident while Carrie was just a baby, so she never really knew him. Was she and only child then at that point she was yes. Linda relocated with Carrie to Waco, Texas, where her younger sister was attending Baylor University. Many of Linda's other family members had settled in the area as well, so it made sense for her to move there. She had support from her family and also went to counseling to work through her grief from losing Scott. It was a big help to her. She learned that it was important to seek help and not keep things bottled up inside. It was a lesson she would impart on Carrie as well.

9:29 Linda started attending classes at Baylor to work on a degree in communications while raising her young daughter. Faith was important to her. She had been raised as a Baptist and would drop carry off at the first Baptist Church in Waco for day care while she went to work or school. During Christmas Break nineteen seventy seven, a fire broke out at the apartment that Linda and Carey shared with Linda's sister Kay. Luckily no one was home at the time, but they lost most of their possessions. Jim Doolan, who as a friend of one of their neighbors, offered his pickup truck to help transport the few belongings that Linda and Kay had left. Before long, Jim and Linda struck up a romance. The couple married in June nineteen seventy nine, and soon after Jim adopted Carrie. In nineteen eighty, Linda and Jim had a boy named Adam. Carrie was an active, outgoing and popular kid. She loved the outdoors, and she was into sports, playing basketball in junior high and doing cheerleading in high school. She was active in the church, volunteering regularly and raising money for missionaries. Her cousin, Lindsey, who was five years younger than Carrie, was one of her best friends, more like a sister than a cousin.

10:43 In nineteen ninety two, not long after Carrie turned eighteen, while she was still in high school, she suddenly had severe abdominal pains. Her dad, Jim, rushed her to the hospital, thinking was appendicitis, but it turned out that Carrie was pregnant and in the process of miscarrying. She found out, Carrie began sobbing, worried that her devoutly religious parents would think less of her, but nothing could be further from the truth. Linda and Jim were caring and supportive and assured their daughter that they didn't think any less of her. After graduating high school, Carrie decided to attend Texas Tech University in Lubbock, about three hundred fifty miles away from Waco. She went there for a year, but decided it wasn't the right fit for her. There were too many parties and too many temptations. Carrie wanted to focus on her studies and live a good Christian life, and she really wanted to find a good Christian man to build a life and family around. So she came back that summer and got a job at the First Baptist Church youth camp as a lifeguard. It was there that she met Matt Baker, who impressed her as the good Christian man that she was looking for. Matt was born in nineteen seventy one, three years before Carrie, and he grew up in Kerrville, Texas, about two hundred miles southwest of waie Go.

12:00 The Bakers were devout Baptists whose lives revolved around the church, sometimes attending services three times a week in addition to volunteering regularly. Matt had an older sister, but grew up in a house full of children. Around the time he was three, his parents, Oscar and Barbara, started taking in foster children. They had many foster children, a total of forty nine over the years, some staying for just a short period and some staying for years. Some were troubled, and some had disabilities. They varied widely in age. At times they had up to ten foster children in addition to their two biological children. After seven years of fostering, Oscar and Barbara decided to stop and focus their attention on Matt and his older sisters Stacy. While they felt like the experience had overall been positive for their children being around children of different races and backgrounds, they had also had their share of problems police visits, attempted suicides, runaways, fights, and so on. They wanted some stability. Matt was a good kid. He never got into trouble. He was active, working a paper route, taking up tuba and French horn and band, playing sports, and working as a student trainer for the high school basketball team. After school and on weekends, Matt would work with his dad as a handyman, taking on jobs doing carpentry, mowing lawns, painting, and whatever other work he could find. During high school, Matt decided that he wanted to dedicate his future to teaching the gospel.

13:31 He decided to attend Baylor University, a private Baptist research university in Waco, and study church recreation and athletic training. I had no idea that church recreation was a degree. It's actually a miner. I don't know if it was a major back then, but today it's a minor area of concentration that you can study At Baylor. You take classes in the theory and practice of outdoor adventure programs, introduction to the ministry, and principles of church recreation. So maybe like that would be a degree someone who wanted to be like a youth leader might take on. Yeah, exactly. During college, Matt worked as a trainer for Baylor's football team, and this would be the beginning, at least as far as we know of Matt's history of sexually assaulting women and not being held accountable. During his sophomore year, a young freshman woman named Laura Wilson came to work with him as an athletic trainer. It was common that the freshman trainers underwent some hazing from the upper classmen. It was generally harmless, like being made to sing songs outside of the team doctor's home and to scrub bathroom floors and toilets with a toothbrush. One afternoon during finals week, Matt was supervising Laura as she cleaned one of the locker rooms. The two were alone and no one was around because it was outside of normal football practice hours. While Laura was cleaning the bathroom and Matt was supposed to be cleaning another part of the facility, she suddenly realized he was standing right behind her. He pinned her arms behind her back, forced himself against her, and tried to kiss her. She struggled against his advances,

15:03 but he wouldn't stop. He picked her up and put her down on the sink, forcing himself between her legs and continuing to try and kiss her. He held her arms behind her back with one hand while fondling her with the other. She screamed and bit his shoulder. Just as suddenly as his attack started, he stopped, saying I'm done and walked away, leaving her crying and shaking. Laura called her mother, who told her to report the incident to the head trainer, which she did. Her parents came to campus and went with her to meet with the head trainer. He then called Matt in, who admitted to what he had done, but claimed that he didn't realize he was hurting her or that she wasn't welcoming his advances. The head trainer told Laura and her parents that the university would handle it, and he turned to Matt while they were there and said, quote, you understand you will have to be disciplined for this right. Matt responded in the affirmative. But Matt's discipline quote unquote, turned out to be more like a promoter. He was confined to work in the training room with the football players, which was really more prestigious than what he had been doing. Laura was traumatized by the experience. She refused to go to counseling, although her parents urged her to. Laura she tried to come back and work on the athletic training team after winter break ended, but she found that her colleagues were whispering about her behind her back and accusing her of fabricating the incident with Matt. She ended up dropping out of Baylor before the next semester ended, and struggled with nightmares for years after. Just a month after that incident,

16:33 Matt was home in Kerville visiting family when he went out with a girl he had dated in high school. She and Matt ended up at the house where she lived with her parents. They were making out and suddenly Matt became very aggressive. She would later say it took all of her strength to keep him from tearing her clothes off, and he only stopped when they heard her parents coming home. Later that semester, Matt got a job as an intern in the recreation department of the First Baptist Church in Waco. Would work at the rec center and the youth summer camp, which is where he met Carrie Doolin in early summer nineteen ninety four. So, as you can see, this is the this is going to be the beginning of a pattern with Matt, and it's just so it's just so frustrating that these things tend to happen, and a lot of times they just get shrugged off as sort of a he said, she said type of thing, and people like Matt just don't seem to face the consequences enough.

17:25 Believe the victims, believe the survivors. What would the appropriate punishment have been during those first offensives that would have prevented him from having any future in. My opinion, getting suspended from school for a period of time or losing his job. Oh yeah, I think those things should have happened. Yeah, I guess I mean that. But he still would have gone on and been an abusive spouse. Yeah, very very likely. Matt and Carey quickly became serious. They shared a common background in the Baptist Church, a passion for their faith, and the love of family. Carrie told her friends that she knew from the very beginning that Matt was the one. Carrie's family wasn't so sure.

18:07 Her mom, Linda, thought Matt seemed a little somber and quiet compared to Carrie, who was always upbeat and positive. Carrie's younger brother, Adam, instinctively hated Matt from the beginning. Linda had to tell him to be nice, and Carrie's cousin Lindsay, who was more like a sister or best friend, said that Matt gave off some creepy vibes. She said that when he would hug her, it seemed like he was enjoying it too much, and he would sometimes make suggestive hand gestures when he would see Lindsay, as if he was squeezing her breasts. I know it's so gross, horrible, but Carrie was clearly in love with him, so Lindsay brushed off her concerns, thinking maybe she was imagining it. Carrie's mom and dad tried to get her to slow down, but she knew what she wanted. They decided to get married in August before the fall semester at Baylor started, just months after they met. Linda tried to talk Carrie into waiting so they could get to know each other better, but Carrie assured her, saying, Mom, this guy is a really good Christian.

19:05 How long had they been dating for? Really? Only about three or four months? I think you're making a face. Well I'm a mom, yeah, and I yeah. That would I wouldn't like it, that would like it at all? That would be tough. They got married on August twentieth nineteen ninety four, Matt was almost twenty three and Carrie had just turned twenty. Matt's relationship and marriage to Carrie didn't stop him from continuing his pattern of assaulting girls and women. At First Baptist, where he was interning, a teenage gymnast came forward to complain that Matt had been pressuring her to have sex. Matt's boss called him in. Matt denied that anything improper had happened, and his boss put it down to another he said, she said situation.

19:50 He gave Matt a warning to be more careful and told him to not put himself in situations where he was alone with teenage girls at camp. A little bit later, around the time he married Carrie, another woman came forward. This time it was a middle aged woman who worked as a custodian at the camp. She claimed that Matt asked her to have sex, saying, quote, I know what it's like to be with a young woman. I'd like to know what it's like to be with a mature woman unquote. She was appalled and reported Matt, who again denied everything. Matt's boss gave him another warning, saying, oh, get you know if you're doing this kind of thing, you need to get professional help. But his boss didn't want to ruin a young man's career based on unproven accusations, so Matt continued working at the church for another year, with no other incidents being reported during that time.

20:41 The accusation wasn't disproven. Either, right, and it was two women. It wasn't just one either, So yeah, it's really frustrating. It's super frustrating. His boss did, however, write up a detailed report about Matt's alleged behavior, and he put it in the safe at work in case anyone called in the future for a reference about him. But it seems like that this type of reference check didn't seem to happen very often. Unfortunately, Carrie heard about these allegations and she was livid, not at Matt, but at the women who made the accusations. She thought they were jealous or out to get her husband for some reason. Maybe they had been flirting with Matt and he had rejected their advances, but she was positive that Matt would never do anything like what they had claimed. Years later, Carrie sent the following advice to a young woman planning to marry a man who was studying for the ministry. She said, quote, people will attack your husband. They'll say false things because they'll have agendas.

21:37 Sometimes women will tell lies because they'll see a good man and want him for themselves. You have to love your husband and believe in him even when no one else does. The ministry is a hard life, and you have to back up your husband and be there for him so that he can do God's work unquote. So we've already heard quite a few examples of Matt and his behavior, and I'm sure you won't be surprised to learn there are going to be more examples as well. Carrie stood by him steadfastly. I always wonder in situations like that, do you think in her heart of heart she knew that her husband was a cree? Well, this case does take place thirty years ago, true, before the Me Too movement, and I think it was more likely thirty years ago that a woman would stand by her man. Yeah, So let's just hope that if this happened today, that Carrie would be wiser. Yeah, or women today are wiser and realize that, you know, men happens a lot. It happens a lot, and men can be not all men. There's plenty of lovely men, but a lot of men are dogs.

22:38 Yeah, that is a very good point. After they married, Carrie and Matt moved into a townhouse that was owned by Carrie's aunt Nancy. Soon after finishing his undergrad degree, Matt decided to pursue his master's degree and divinity at Baylor's Seminary School. What a good fit for such a godly man. Yeah, Carrie encouraged him, knowing he would need the advanced degree if he wanted to have a real career in the Baptist church. Around that time, Carrie became pregnant, and Matt quit his job at the First Baptist Church and started working at the Waco YMCA running the children's after school program. In April nineteen ninety six, Kenzie Baker was born. Two months later, three teenage girls, later joined by a fourth filed complaints against Matt at the YMCA, accusing him of making unwanted advances, pressuring them to have sex, and refusing to back down. One girl said that Matt croped her aggressively and grabbed her hand, forcing it to his crotch, before being startled by a phone ringing and letting her go. This time, Matt was actually fired immediately. He told Carrie that all he was guilty of was trying to counsel the girls against becoming sexually active until they were older. Somehow they must have misinterpreted his intentions. Again, Carrie stood by her man. In January nineteen ninety seven, while Kenzie was still a baby, Carrie went back to school at Baylor to continue working on her degree. She had decided to pursue a degree

24:08 in education and become a teacher. Although some of Carrie's friends and relatives had heard about the accusations against Matt, her parents, Linda and Jim, were largely in the dark. They just thought it was weird that Matt seemed to go everywhere with Carrie. For example, when she would go to get her hair cut and dyed blonde, he would come with her to the salon. Carrie explained to her parents, quote, Matt just loves me and doesn't want to be without me. And I feel sorry for Matt. He doesn't have any real friends. End quote John, I wonder. Why I know. In summer of nineteen ninety six, Matt got a new job as recreation director for a church in downtown Waco. But he only lasted four months at this job, and we don't know why. But soon he got a job as pastor at Pecan Grove Baptist Church, which was considered a prime posting for seminary students who were considered to to be on the fast track for future growth in the Baptist church. Meanwhile, the accusations against Matt kept coming.

25:08 A teenage girl who lived behind Carrie and Matt said that Matt approached her in the parking lot one day, asked if she'd ever been kissed by a boy, and then grabbed her and kissed her on the lips. The girl told her mom. Her mom happened to know Carrie's aunt, Nancy, so she told her, but she said her daughter did sometimes exaggerate, so she was a bit hesitant. Nancy told Linda, Carrie's mom, who told Carrie. Carrie got angry and insisted the girl must be lying. So at this point, there's twelve allegations against him. Pretty close. Yeah, and you know there are probably others that weren't reported, you know. In early nineteen ninety seven, Carrie got pregnant again and gave birth to another daughter, Cassidy. In November. Coincidentally, the same month, Laura Wilson, who had worked with Matt in the athletic training department about five years earlier, was that at Baylor, Yes they'd worked together in the locker room, was still having nightmares about the attack and decided to report it to the police. Poor Laura, she really struggled after that. The police she spoke to listened with interest, but then came back and apologized because the statute of limitations had expired.

26:19 And it must have just expired, because I looked it up in the Statute of Limitations on Sexual Assault in Texas's five years and this was almost exactly five years. After her always thought it was seven, but I guess it's different for different crimes. There was nothing the police could do. By the end of nineteen ninety seven, Matt was doing while in his master's program, and Carrie was almost done taking classes for her bachelor's degree in education. She was set to start student teaching the next fall. In March nineteen ninety eight, Matt got a new job at Williams Creek Baptist Church in Axtell, Texas, not far from Waco. Carrie also got involved leading the church's youth group and teaching women's Bible study after a break. So far, I am not liking this Matt guy at all, and I'm not sure why he wants to be in the ministry.

27:16 Well, that is a good question. If I had to give you my theory, it would be because he wanted to be in a position of power where he would be interacting with young girls and women. Gross yes. On Cassidy's first birthday in November nineteen ninety eight, the baby got sick and threw up. No one was too worried, probably just too much cake, they thought, but the vomiting continued the next day and got worse. Carrie and Matt took her to a doctor who said it was most likely a stomach bug. Just give her lots of fluids and she should get better soon. But she didn't get better. In fact, she kept getting worse and Carrie was having a hard time getting any fluids into her. They finally took her into the er, where the doctor was unsure of what was going on. They put her on an IV to get her hydrated, but then Cassidy suddenly had a seizure. They did a spinal tap, which ruled out meningitis, then sent her for an MRI. The MRI revealed a tumor at the base of Cassidy's brain. It appeared to be growing and was life threatening, so the doctors recommended surgery.

28:19 It would be a lengthy and risky operation. The risk was not only from the tumor, but also because of the length of time that Cassidy would need to be sedated. Sedating children under three for more than three hours carries an increased risk of brain development issues or even death. The surgeon told Carrie and Matt there was a chance that Cassidy wouldn't make it through the operation, but without the surgery she would almost certainly die. The surgery took place the day before Thanksgiving. When it was done, the surgeon told them the tumor had been completely removed and Cassidy was recovering in the pediatric ICU. She was not out of the woods, though the doctors were still worried about the effect of the anesthesia and still didn't know if she would pull through.

29:01 My heart goes out to any parent that has had to deal with any issue like this. I know it's so heartbreaking, so so hard on the whole family. Soon they got some bad news. Cassidy had pulmonary edema, meaning that fluid was building up in her lungs. The outlook wasn't good. In a last ditch effort to save her, they did a tracheotomy and put her into a medically induced coma in hopes that her body would be able to heal itself. Days turned into weeks. The family all rotated in and out of the hospital to have someone at Cassidy's side at all times. Cassidy was a fighter. She was in the pediatric ICU for forty three days when her doctors finally decided she had turned a corner on her road to recovery. They transferred her to the tracheotomy unit and soon felt like she was ready to go home. She was still being fed through a gastric tube, and she still required the trake tube for breathing, so Matt and Carey both had to learn how to care for her. The doctor said she should be able to have both of those tubes removed within a couple of months.

30:04 Cassidy finally went home in late February after two months in the hospital. While Cassidy was in the hospital, Matt still found time for his other pursuits. One day, Carrie's cousin Lindsay came to the hospital with a friend from her job at the Cracker Barrel, a twenty year old young woman named Aaron. On the way to the hospital, Lindsey warned Aaron to be careful around Matt, as he was kind of a creep. Aaron was like, right, he's going to hit on me while his baby is in the hospital fighting for her life. And Carrie was like, yeah, I wouldn't put it past him. And sure enough, while Lindsay and Carrie were in seeing Cassidy, Matt came and sat by Aaron in the waiting room. He said, you know you're a beautiful girl. Oh my, oh, I know this is going to make you really mad. Eron just said thanks. Then he moved closer and he put his hand on her leg and he said, they gave us a room to stay in while Cassidy's here. It's close.

30:55 Would you like to see it? He did not, he did. Aaron said no, thanks, I don't think that's appropriate. Matt persisted, saying, Lindsay and Carrie will be gone at least fifteen minutes. The room is right down the hall. He moved his hand to her upper thigh, and Aaron said no more emphatically, this time not taking the hint. Matt started rubbing her shoulders. Fortunately, Carrie and Lindsay interrupted. As they came back to the waiting room, Aaron told Lindsay, we need to go now. Other people observed that Matt seemed to be enjoying the attention while Cassidy was in the hospital. He seemed to love being the center of attention, and he would go into endless detail without showing any emotion about Cassidy's condition and everything that he was doing to help. Once home, Cassidy seemed to be improving as each day progressed. She was doing chemotherapy as a precaution to ensure that the cancer didn't return. A home healthcare nurse came to the house during the day to take care of Cassidy so that Matt and Carrie could get back to work in school.

31:59 On Friday nineteenth, Carrie and Matt took Cassidy into the emergency room. They were having a problem with her feeding tube and they didn't want to risk infection. A doctor examined her and said she should be fine. They should They could just reseat the feeding tube. When she came in for her next chemo session in a few days, it wasn't anything urgent. Two days later, on a Sunday evening, Carrie and Matt watched the Academy Awards, where Life Is Beautiful was the big winner, and then checked on the girls and went to bed. Around midnight, Matt went and checked on Cassidy again. He returned and told Carrie she was fine. For some reason, Just nine minutes later, Matt got up and checked on Cassidy again. He later said that something wouldn't let him sleep and he just needed to check again. He yelled out to Carrie that Cassidy wasn't breathing and to call nine one one. Matt did CPR while they waited for the ambulance, which rushed Cassidy to the hospital, but sadly, there was nothing they could do.

32:56 Cassidy was pronounced dead. Carrie's aunt Nancy, had arrived at the hospital right around this time and looked around the room, seeing everyone, including the hospital staff, just bawling except for Matt. Matt was standing in the background emotionless, just watching. Nancy witnessed another strange incident. Shortly after that. Carrie sat in a chair, holding Cassidy's body and saying goodbye. Matt was standing off to the side when suddenly he rushed forward and started grabbing at Cassidy's tracheostomy tube. Carrie was like, what the hell are you doing? Leave her alone. Matt said, I just want to remove her trake. Carrie turned away from him, saying no, don't touch her. Looking back, Nancy thought it was odd that Matt so urgently wanted to remove the tube. The next day, Carrie called Cassidy's oncologist to let him know that she had died. His first reaction wasn't one of sorrow. It was confusion. He said something like Cassidy wasn't supposed to die. How could she be dead? He had been certain that she was out of the woods and on her way back to health.

33:58 After getting off the phone, he'd called Child Protective Services. A few days later, a CPS worker visited Matt and Carrie. She interviewed them, looked around the house, and was satisfied that everything was fine. There was no further investigation done. I'm not sure whether or not an autopsy was done on Cassidy, but in any case, the matter was dropped and Carrie and Matt were left to pick up the pieces of their lives. That process seemed much easier from Matt than it was for Carrie. Less than a week after Cassidy's death, Matt was back at the Pull, but delivering his sermon. He told his congregation quote, this is where the Lord wants me. He gives me strength. Carrie couldn't understand how Matt seemed to move on as if nothing had happened. She also had questions about what happened that night. She confided in a close friend, wondering why Matt had gone to check on Cassidy a second time, less than ten minutes after he had checked on her. How could she have been fine and then ten minutes later be dead? Did he know that something was wrong? And why did Matt not hook Cassidy up to her breathing monitor that night? He had told Carrie that he didn't think she needed it any more. She told her friend, quote, I hate thinking that Matt did something wrong, like with her feeding tube that could have caused this, But why doesn't he hurt like I do? End quote. She told her friend that Matt wanted to have sex. Within days of Cassidy's passing, which was the first furthest thing from her mind. She said, it almost seemed like Matt was relieved that Cassidy was gone.

35:31 Carrie's mom, Linda, was a big believer in therapy, which had helped her deal with the loss of her first husband, Carrie's birth father. Linda urged Carrie to go talk to someone. Carrie's aunt Kay recommended a friend, joe Anne Bristol, who was a social worker in studying grief counseling. Carrie started seeing Joanne weekly and it helped. By the fall of nineteen ninety nine, Carrie had decided to go back to school and finish up her teaching degree. She wrote an in her journal addressed to Cassidy, where she said, quote, I don't really want to go. I'm doing it for you. I want you to be proud of me. I wish the pain would go away. I wish she would come back.

36:12 That fall, members of the church where Matt was pastor unveiled a small prayer garden they had built in front of the church, commemorated with a granite marker that read Cassidy's prayer Garden. It's so nice. Carrie could regularly be found sitting quietly on the bench in the garden with Kenzie. Soon after the prayer garden was unveiled, Carrie and Matt announced to the congregation that they were pregnant with another daughter. They decided to name their new baby Grace because she was a gift from God. Carrie finished her student teaching and got her education degree in May two thousand. A month later, Grace Baker was born around the same time. Just over a year since losing Cassidy, Carrie was feeling better.

36:54 She was excited about her new baby, her career, and her future, so she decided to end her weekly counseling sessions with Joanne Bristol. In the fall of two thousand, Matt left his job at Williams Creek Baptist Church and found a new position as pastor of a small church about half an hour away from Waco in Rizel. Once again, Carrie got involved in the church as well, helping to grow the youth group to attract fifty kids every Wednesday evening. With how many jobs this guy has had, I was going to add, I was gonna say that, yeah, that's yeah, you want a job not done yet either. While she was doing better, Carrie was having trouble sleeping, still haunted by thoughts of losing her baby girl, She saw a doctor who prescribed ambient. She tried it but didn't like the way it made her feel, so she never got the prescription refilled. Instead, she started taking an over the counter sleep aid, a generic version of unisom.

37:47 She would end up taking this regularly for the next several years. In May two thousand and one, Matt completed seminary school, earning his Master's of Divinity in Christian Education and Administry. As a graduation gift, Carrie's family got Matt a nice set of golf clubs. Months later, Linda asked Carrie why Matt never seemed to use them. She said, Matt doesn't have any friends to play with. Gives me some small level of comfort to know that Matt hadn't didn't have any friends because he's such a horrible, horrible person, so he really is horrible. Around this time, Carrie and Matt started having money problems. One day, Carrie got notified that their checking account was overdrawn. She looked at the account and found a bunch of charges for internet porn and phone sex. She asked Matt about it, and he told her that someone had stolen his debit card.

38:38 Likely's story. Carrie went to the bank, spoke to the manager and told him about the fraudulent charges. She must have been very persuasive, because the bank manager quickly issued a refund. Oh wow, that probably happens a lot. Can you don't you think people go to their bank and say there's all. These manager would be like, nope, becauld they see it all the time. I would think that too, But at the same time, the bank manager might just be embarrassed and wanted to go away. And I'm sure they're insured thirty years ago too. Yeah. Yeah. During the summer of two thousand and two, Matt left the church in Rizel and got a job with a much bigger church in Dallas, the North Lake Baptist Church. This was about an hour and a half from Waco, so the family packed up and moved to a house in the Dallas suburb of Mesquite. Carrie was proud of Matt. She felt like he wasn't appreciated at the church in Rizel and he deserved something bigger and better.

39:30 Once again, she got very involved in the church, taking charge of the volunteers who ran the Vacation Bible School, helping to raise money for programs in Third World countries and teaching Bible studies. A second grade teaching job opened up at the elementary school where Kenzie was attending kindergarten, and Carrie got hired. At the same time, she enrolled in Dallas Baptist University and started work on a master's degree in leadership studies with an emphasis on conflict resolution. During their second year in Dallas, Carrie got a second job, teaching one night a week at Tarletan State University in Waco. She was busy working during the day teaching elementary school, making a three hour round trip once a week to teach at the college, helping out of the church, working on her master's degree, Not to mention taking care of her family. That's a lot that sounds exhausting, it does.

40:20 Was she doing it because they were having financial problems? Is that way she felt like she needed to work two different jobs. I don't know for sure, but I think the second job at the college was just something she wanted to do because it was more experienced teaching at a college level, so it just gave her a new experience. While Carrie seemed to be thriving in her career as a teacher. Matt began having problems at North Lake. This time it wasn't sexual assault allegations, though it started a few weeks after he began working there when he fired a staff member who had been a founding member of the church and was well liked among church members and the deacons. People were upset with him about that. Other problem was that the older members of the church didn't like Matt's style.

41:04 He was more of a hip, young preacher than what they were used to. He didn't lean heavily on scripture for his sermons. They were more about telling stories that people could relate to. It got so bad that church members would hold up their Bibles during Matt's Sunday sermons and shouted him to preach from it imagine, and Matt's response was viewed as arrogant. He basically told them this is who I am and you just need to deal with it. Carrie complained about the church members to her mom, saying they were being unfair to Matt. While Linda usually remained quiet about the issues Matt seemed to have at every job he took, this time she spoke up saying, quote, do you hear yourself? I want you to think, how could this be at every church? What's the one common denominator at every church? Unquote?

41:50 Oh wow, I like Carrie's mom. Oh she is amazing. It's interesting that Carrie has she's earning a degree in conflict resolution, all these issues with her husband. Yeah, maybe that's what drove her in that direction. In November two thousand and four, the church leaders voted to cut Matt's salary by five thousand dollars. Soon after that, he resigned. The reality was that he resigned before he was fired, which probably would not have been long in coming. This guy has more jobs than you. You've got a lot of jobs. Yes, but I've not. Been fired from that. No, that's true. Or you haven't told me you've been fired.

42:30 Maybe you have been No, never been fired yet. Docknwood. Matt got a new job in Waco, which meant the family would have to move again just two years after the move to Dallas. Carrie had made good friends in Dallas and she liked it there. Not only that, but Kenzie was doing well in school, and Carrie's teaching contract locked her in through the end of the school year. Remind me how far is Dallas from Waco? An hour and a half? Okay, do you know how long it takes to drive from one end of Texas to the other? Don't the whitest part. I have a feeling you're going to tell me. Guess twenty hours. You're closed is sixteen hours. Texas is eight miles eight hundred and one miles long. That's funny. I thought it would be longer because when we drive way up north to like the top of northern Michigan, it takes what like twelve hours? Right?

43:17 No, it takes seven hours. Oh. Anyway. When Matt got the new job in Dallas, he temporarily moved into Linda and Jim's spare room, so Linda and Jim are Carrie's parents. While Carrie and the girls stayed in Dallas until the end of the school year, money continued to be tight, especially because of all the moving. Carrie asked her mom if she would mind adding her and Matt's cell phones to their family plan. She said that they would still pay the phone bill, but it would save them money if they were on Linda and Jim's plan. Linda said yes, of course. Put a pin in that comment because this will become important later, we'll do. Matt's new job was as chaplain at the wake Z Center for Youth or w c WHY. W c WHY is a long term psychiatric residential treatment facility for teens from ages thirteen to seventeen with emotional or behavioral problems.

44:13 Teens were there either voluntarily or by court order, and stayed on an average of eighteen months. In his role there, Matt led Sunday services, Bible study classes, and did counseling. Once the school year ended in May two thousand and five, Carrie, Matt, and the girls moved into a house in hewittt, Texas, just outside of Waco. Carrie got a job teaching third grade at Spring Valley Elementary School, where Kensie and Grace would be starting that fall. It was ideal being just half a mile from their house. Kensy and Grace both seemed to be doing well in their new school, Kensie in the fourth grade and Grace in kindergarten. Carrie fit in well at school and became close with some of the other teachers. They liked Carrie, but noticed that she rarely went out with the other teachers after school. When she did go out with them. They noticed that Matt would constantly call her for one reason or another. While Matt was working at w C, why he still had his eye out for another church pastor position. Coincidentally, the church that Carrie's parents attended, Crossroads Baptist Church, had their pastor leave. Carrie's dad, Jim, was deacon at the church and agreed to ask the other deacons to interview Matt as a favor to Carrie. He recused himself from the process and told the other deacons that if they decided not to hire Matt, there would be no hard feelings.

45:36 As it turns out, they liked they liked Matt, and he was hired at October two thousand and five. He kept his job at w CY, working there part time during the week and taking the duties of pastor at Crossroads on the weekends. I'm just surprised that anyone liked Matt, you know. I think he's one of those guys that probably when you first meet him, he gives off a positive impression. Then you get to know him and find out not so much. That fall, Crossroads welcomed a new member to the church, a twenty three year old woman named Vanessa Bowles. Vanessa's dad, Leary, was the music minister at Crossroads, and Vanessa had recently moved home while going through a divorce. Just a year earlier, in December two thousand and four, Vanessa had gotten married to a man twenty years her senior, gotten pregnant, and had a baby, Lily in August two thousand and five.

46:27 A month later, her husband filed for divorce and claimed that Lily was not his child. It was later confirmed through a fraternity test that indeed he was not Lily's father. The divorce was finalized in December two thousand and five. Vanessa came home with her daughter and started attending classes at Tarleton State University, working towards an education degree. She got married, had a baby like nine months later, pretty much, and then her husband found out it wasn't his, So not the best situation. Carrie got to know Vanessa casually through church. Vanessa's daughter, Lily reminded Carrie a lot of Cassidy, now gone for almost seven years, Kensy and Grace would play with Lily at church. After Vanessa joined the church, Matt seemed to find more reasons to call over to the Bull's house.

47:17 To talk with Larry about the music for upcoming services. More and more, though, he started calling to talk to Vanessa and counsel her. Augh, this guy is such a creep. He had been through a lot, he said, including the loss of a child, so he could certainly help her through that tough time that she was going through as a newly divorced single mother. How old is Matt right now? I believe he was thirty four at. This point, okay, and so Vanessa is twenty three? Yes? Maybe not so Coincidentally, Carrie and Matt started having more and more marital issues around this time. Part of it may have been that Carrie was feeling a lot of stress. The Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skill Test was coming up.

48:01 This was a standardized test that every student had to take starting in third grade, and like many other standardized tests, there was a lot of pressure on both teachers and students to do well. Also, the anniversary of Cassidy's death was coming up, which was always a hard time for Carrie. In February, Matt emailed Carrie he knew she was feeling stressed and overwhelmed. He said, quote, are you feeling depressed? Are you feeling lost. Do you want to stop something? If so, what could you stop? I don't know how to help you any more than I already do. The last time you sounded like this was close to the anniversary of Cassidy's death. I'm just asking so that I can help. What can I do? Love you? Matt. Carrie responded, Well, this might sound crazy, but I think for the first time, I have realized that Cassidy is not coming back, So I guess I am feeling like I have lost her all over again. I just have a lot out on my plate and I feel like I I'm sinking. So am I depressed or lost? Yes, all of the above.

49:05 I feel like I am getting sick, and I hate myself because I should be happy because I have you and the girls, but I just can't get going. Later in the email exchange, she said, quote, I will get through this on my own. You are wonderful. I couldn't ask for a better husband. I think she could, actually, But right now I am just sinking and I have to find out how to pull myself up. So I don't even know how I'm going to do it. But it wasn't just Cassidy and work stress that was affecting Carrie. She also seemed to have realized that Matt was increasingly distracted and behaving differently toward her. In another email exchange later in February, Carrie expressed her feelings quote, I just want my soulmate back with me forever, and hell guess I will do whatever it takes to make sure that happens.

49:53 I just need you to know that, in all caps, I love you more than anything in the world, and my hang ups are something I need to work on. Let's just make it a real habit to try and spend a little time together every day and just talk about us and life and just holding each other. I love you, Matt, and I can't even think of what my life would be like if you weren't in it. A minute later, Matt responded, thank you. I needed to hear this. I love you. On March twenty first, the eve of the seventh anniversary of losing Cassidy, Carrie was feeling shaky, but she didn't know why. She emailed Matt saying quote, I haven't felt this bad in a long time unquote. Carrie had been dieting, trying hard to lose some weight, and Matt wondered if her blood sugar might be low. He replied, quote, do you want anything special tonight? How about a chocolate shake with even more chocolate syrup? Just joking, smiley face, love you unquote. Carrie responded, quote no, I will be okay.

50:51 I just want to sleep tonight unquote. A friend of Carrie's noticed that she seemed off that day as well. She asked Carrie if she was okay. Carry replied, I'm okay. I do this every year. It's just hard. Carrie took the next day off work, and she and Matt went to visit Cassidy's grave. Later, Carrie called her mom, Linda, and told her she had an epiphany regarding what she wanted to do with her future. She said, quote, I think I'm in a place where I need to reach out and help others who have lost a child. I'll always miss Cassidy, but now that I've found peace with her death, I'd like to find a way to help other parents unquote. Linda thought that was a beautiful idea. Another sign that something was off with Carrie and Matt's marriage was their sex life. While Matt had always been the one with a stronger sex drive, now the tables seem to have turned. Carrie confided in a friend quote, I actually want Matt sexually, but he told me that he doesn't need me like that anymore. Unquote. On Monday, March twenty seventh, Carrie and Matt made plans to leave the girls at their grandmas and rekindle their romance. They had an email exchange that day.

51:58 So what are we going to do? Nothing? Sleep? I am sure that is what you want to do. I am not sure what has changed in you, but something has. I was joking, Carrie, I am no different. I promise we can go to the movies, out to eat or rent a movie and order in whichever you want. I tried the other night to make things special, and now the ball is in your court. I hope you don't miss the basket. Very funny. You make me laugh. Ha ha. You did make things special. I never missed the basket. Apparently things didn't work out well, because the next day, Carrie sent Matt a long email. Here's part of it. I know you are not at work yet, but there is something on my mind. Matt. I love you very much, and I wasn't joking about what I said last night. I do not doubt your love for me. I just think that something has changed in you and I can't figure out what it is. Until you open up and tell me what is going on, we cannot go any further.

52:53 Never in our marriage have you ever told me no, And I guess I feel like this is just one way you are pulling away. I know you think I am seeing things, but what I feel is real. I have decided that until you open up to me and tell me what is going on and really spend the time needed to make things better, I will not do anything with you. Then again, maybe that is what you want. This morning, I thought you would have liked what I did, but I felt like you seemed put out. And I'm tired of giving and giving and you not giving back. So I guess what I am saying. If you want our marriage to be better than it has ever been, then some things have got to change. Please know I am not in any way saying I do not love you or do not want to be with you, but the way I feel has got to stop, and that means that you have got to tell me what is going on in your mind. I love you very much and I am sorry. If I have made you mad, But like I said last night, I am sick of this.

53:47 You are breaking my heart. After Matt got to work at WCY, he responded, quote, Carrie, I just want you to know that I love you. Just wanted to say that. Unquote. That day, though, things took a turn for the worse. When Matt decided to open up to carry regarding his feelings about Cassidy's death. He sent a long email. I know that you have told me a number of times that you prayed the night that she died that you wanted her to be pain free. I have never told you before what I did in her room at midnight when I went to check on her. I guess this is part of the not sharing everything with you. I went to her bed and placed my hand on her back to make sure she was breathing. She was. She looked up at me briefly and went back to snoring quickly.

54:34 I kept my hand on her back and I prayed for her that night. I prayed that she would be cancer free, and I prayed for her to start and finish school, graduate college, get married, and bring her family home for the holidays. I remembered praying the words, Please God, make her well so we can have her here with us. Please, I need her. I don't know why I never told you this before. Maybe I didn't want to make you mad. You and I have just discussed the fact that your prayer was the one that was answered that night. I don't know why mine wasn't I know deep down I hold a grudge against God and you for him answering your prayer and not mine. So basically, what he's saying is that because Carrie prayed for Cassidy to be free of pain, that her prayer was answered by her dying, which is I can't even imagine how horrible to say something like that. He went on in his email to talk about the nature of his relationship with Carrie, saying, quote, all I know is that I chased you for our entire marriage. You often did make me feel like you did not need nor desire me. I felt as though I was like the sperm donor for your children, and I was now the butler, cook, babysitter, etc. Although I know I am not good at keeping the house clean. Unquote.

55:52 As you can imagine, Carrie was shattered by what she read. She responded, Wow, so you finally said it, you blame me for Cassidy's death. I had to read it a few times to make sure I understood what you had said. I feel like you just took a knife and put it through my heart. I have never ever told you that it was your fault that she wasn't alive. Ever, Yes, I carry that guilt of my prayer, but I know in my heart that God knew what he was doing before I ever prayed that prayer. Yes, we will never be the same after Cassidy's death, but one thing I have learned is you can either let it change you for the good or the bad, and that is up to you. Sorry, you have felt like you have chased me our whole marriage. Sorry you feel that all you do is cook, clean and take care of the girls.

56:35 You have truly painted an ugly picture of me. At least now I know how you feel about us and about me. I am not sure what to do from here. I have some things that I need to work out because you said some things that really hurt. I am not mad at you, but I am hurt. I know that marriage isn't easy, even harder with the loss of a child, but I am not sure how a marriage can last when one person blames the other for the death of that child. I am in disbelief about what you said, shocked. Thank you for being honest with me. Finally, I wish it didn't take so long, but I understand why you did, because those words must have been very hard to say to write. I am just not sure what to do now. That afternoon, Carrie called her mom.

57:17 She told her that she was going to divorce Matt, and she didn't think they could get past this. Linda, who by this time had completed her masters and her PhD in communications and was a professor, knew that the right thing to do was to listen and to not give advice. But she was also a mother and the mother and her told Carry that divorce wasn't the answer. She said they needed counseling together. Later, Linda would regret not telling Carrie to get as far away from Matt as fast as possible. I think that is where we are going to end Part one. This is such a sad story, as you can. It's sad, but it's also infuriating to you that this guy is such a pig. Yeah, he's a horrible, horrible person and.

57:59 He seems like a lovely person, as you know, so many of the women in our cases do who tolerated a lot and who only wanted to make the world a better place, and. She wanted to make her marriage work like she you know, she really wanted to do anything she could to make the marriage work. Yeah, it's just really tragic. So from an early age, Matt was abusing women. Yes, And what can we do to help men and you know women sometimes who are abusers when they're young, Like, what steps can be taken to you know, help stop domestic violence. I think that is one of the questions we need to talk about as much as possible. Yeah, I'm not an expert. I think one thing that maybe we could do better is teach our girls from a very young age that no one has permission to touch you without your consent, that you are strong. That I think we've romanticized relationships a little little bit, like it's a romantic when a boy, you know, wants to kiss you, but like it's yeah, you know, women have as much should have as much power in their relationship as not just women but girls. Yeah, you know, a relationship should be fifty to fifty and a man should not have power over you, right, it makes.

59:16 Sense, it does, and you mentioned it earlier. But hopefully, you know, with the Me Too movement, hopefully that has helped a little bit in helping girls understand that they. Have ownership over their own bodies. Yeah, and that they can say no, and that it's wrong for a boy to go further than they want. I think the Me Too movement has helped to a certain extent, but we still have so so long ago. Women still don't believe women, and society doesn't always believe victims. Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. And I think that's why we want to keep talking about these cases. And sometimes, like on social media, I think is I will I try to point out, you know, instances of you know, men and in society that are sometimes celebrities like that do bad things, like Jonah Hill last summer was like telling his girlfriend she couldn't wear certain things. And I think that's one place where we can start, is just pointing out these gross behaviors men trying to dominate women. And I know what happens on the other side too, but it's you.

1:00:19 Know, oh yeah, far more common the other way. But yeah, I was actually gonna say, I think part of the thing, like solving the problem for young men and boys. It's it's hard, but I think a lot of it starts with what is culturally accepted and what's not. So I think pointing out things like that with celebrities or you know, people who are well known that do that do bad things, it's really important. When Elon Musk offered to impregnate Taylor, Taylor sweat, like, that's just gross. Gross, That's not how you talk to each other, right, you have to respect each other. Do you think it was weird they kept sending these like laws emails to each other and not having discussions.

1:01:03 A little bit. I sort of got the impression that they use email like a lot like we or a lot of couples use texts, right, But yeah, they did have right, there were really. Long conversations they were. Yeah, but I think in you know, when you're having like marital difficulties like that, and sometimes it helps to get your thoughts down rather than just trying to have a conversation, which can a lot of times devolve into you know, arguing and not being as productive. I have to say, these cases and these these horrible men just make me appreciate you more because you are again, don't get a big hat. I say this all the time, but you are a really good partner and I'm lucky to have you. Oh, I thank you, and I am very lucky to have you as well. If you're a regular listener of Love Mary Kill, are.

1:01:53 You, you know that every True Story, I've never listened to that episode. You have never listened to that episode. I know that's crazy. Well, if you do listen, you know that every month we donate at least twenty five percent of the revenues we earn from advertising and from our patron program to a different charity every month. And we're really proud to be able to do that, and we really want to thank you, our listeners, because it's really so grateful. You're the ones who give us the ability to do that. So for the month of August, we gave to an organization called donors Choose dot org, which is a nonprofit organization which supports classroom projects for public schools in the US.

1:02:37 It's a really cool cheer. I love it. Yeah, teachers. They post requests for classroom materials, trips, and school visitors to the Donors Choose website. So many teachers take money out of their own pocket. Yeah, so much money out of their own pockets, and this kind of helps out with that a little bit. Yeah, yeah, you had written on our social media. I think you probably got it from their website, but that ninety percent of teachers spend an average of eight hundred dollars a year of their own money providing essentials for their classrooms. So it's a great cause. So we were able to donate three hundred and twenty one dollars to two schools. No much but podcasters. Our podcast is doing really well. But podcasters don't make a ton of money unless you're seeking outside advertisements, which someday we'll do, but we haven't done it yet.

1:03:22 Yep. So for more information or to support this organization, go to donors choose dot org. It was so nice that I'm going to get emotional. We received thank you letters from the teachers and that was so nice. I didn't share that with me. Oh well, I would like to hear it. I will later, Okay, I'll look forward to that. But we were able to, like there was the teachers have grants kind of like wishes, and I think we were able to fulfill three different teachers grants with that money. Cool, So yeah, I encourage you to check it out. It'll make you feel really warm and fuzzy. Yeah, and thank you all again. So we are. Working on getting merged. A lot of people have asked for sweatshirts and coffee mugs and things like that, and we actually just Christmas is coming up so well, and you should treat yourself at Christmas because no offense. You know your husband's not going to do it. A little present company and.

1:04:14 I am not the best Christmas gifts. You're very thoughtful. But anyway, moving on merchandise, we had a meeting today with someone and we're going to work on getting some designs and we are curious if any of you out there, if you could let us know what you want. People have said like T shirts and sweatshirts. Let us know even like because we really struggle with like what kind of designs to do, and we're going to work with a designer and come up with some ideas. But if any of you have thoughts on like what, I don't know what type of thing you would want to wear, that would be awesome.

1:04:55 Well, last year we had we had merch and you and I really liked it. It was just our logo. Sure, we're thinking about making some like. Something, a slogan on there something. We'll probably do a logo shirt. But yeah, anyway, we're talking probably too long about this, but yeah, let us know what you would like to see. And we're trying to make the design maybe a little cuter because our regular logo is a little dark, dark and aggressive looking. Yeah kind of. So it works great for like Spotify, but maybe not as great our T shirt that you might want. Yes, exactly, so we will. We will let you know when that happens and when the shop is live. But yeah, something to look forward to before we go. Do you want to talk about Chimp Crazy?

1:05:40 Oh? Yeah, what a ride. Other than Tiger King, which it is made by the producers of Tiger King. It's the craziest thing I've ever seen. It really is. So this is a show on Netflix. I think it's a four part documentary. We have watched the last one, last one yet, but it is. Yeah, it is just crazy. I guess. We don't want to give anything away. About people who are crazy about gymps. One person in particular who I'm always really sensitive. I know that she's not a wonderful person, but I feel as if she's exploited a little bit. I think I've become more And I started watching the Mormon show about the Mormon Wives Secret Lives, Yes, and I felt like, did you watch it? No, I haven't watched it now, kids, and I watched it while you were out of town on one episode and I felt like that was really exploitative and just these people are young and they're naive, and they're just kind of being taken advantage of. And I, yeah, I'm too sensitive, but I always feel a little icky sometimes.

1:06:41 Yeah, I think that. I think that's fair. And I think the woman taught her name's Tanya. She definitely is. I don't want to give any spoilers, but she she does things that are not good, but she's also I find her kind of a sympathetic character as well, because I think you're a sympathetic person, not a character, because she's I don't know. The way I don't again, don't want to give any but the way she feeds the chimps really makes me. She does a lot of things. You have a responsibility if you take a bet to their health, and she definitely doesn't take their health seriously. But I do think she loves the chimps. I think she does. She thinks she's doing right by them. Well a lot of times though. Okay, this is a toxic relationship though, because she loves them, because they love her back. Yeah, yeah, they give unconditional love.

1:07:25 Yes. But if you haven't already watched it, definitely worth checking out. It's on Netflix, it's. Not, well it's not. It's on HBO, which I refused to call it its new name. Max, which is why did they change it? So yeah, that's where it's at. And I apologize for my mistake. You know, if you need our password. There's another funny story. What account is it? One of her accounts we have? So somebody it's down there and I'm like, I feel like they're a family member. I can't take them. It's fun everyone, so we check in see what. Yes, I hope, I hope the Hulu people aren't listening all.

1:08:08 Right, So you think this is gonna We're gonna have two more parts. Yes, this is going to be a three parter. There's a lot to talk about. Boy. Well, if you want to listen to parts two and three, join us on Patreon. Patreon dot com, slash Love Mary Kill. Five dollars a month. Early ad free access and a monthly EPI ybe Cook. If you've watched Chim Crazy, Chim Crazy, send us a d M and let us know what you think. And the way that you can d m us is by following us on Instagram or Facebook mm. Hmm, or send us an email at Lovemrykill at gmail dot com. And until next time, don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife.

1:09:31 Coincidentally, the same month, Laura Wilson, who worked with Matt in the athletic training department about five years earlier and had reported as his owner in the locker room, we're still having nightmares. Everything we can find that of my run on sentence. This is not funny at all, but god, this is the longest it's known to man. Sorry, I'm not I'm not the writer that you are. Two hundred and fifty long