Sept. 16, 2024

Kari and Matt Baker - Part 1 of 3

Kari and Matt Baker - Part 1 of 3
Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconYouTube podcast player icon
Apple Podcasts podcast player iconSpotify podcast player iconYouTube podcast player icon

Matt and Kari Baker seemed like the perfect couple with the perfect family. Living near Waco, Texas, Matt was a Baptist minister and Kari was a third grade teacher. They were raising two beautiful daughters, Kensi and Grace. But Kari’s family and friends knew that she had struggled. Seven years earlier, she and Matt had lost another daughter, Kassidy, soon after her first birthday. When Kari died in April 2006, her death was quickly ruled a suicide. But, Kari’s family and friends had a hard time accepting that conclusion. They saw someone who was a fighter and would do anything to be there for her daughters. They were determined to find out the truth, no matter how long it would take or how difficult it would be.

Today’s snacks: Julio’s Corn Tortilla Chips, Mateo’s Gourmet Salsa, and Velveeta Queso con Salsa Cheese Dip

Listen to all three parts today on Patreon.

Sources:

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:00.240
Hi.

2
00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:01.520
I am Rich and I'm Tina.

3
00:00:01.639 --> 00:00:03.480
And if there's one thing we've learned, and over twenty

4
00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:04.759
years of marriage.

5
00:00:04.480 --> 00:00:07.040
Some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

6
00:00:06.719 --> 00:00:08.839
And some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

7
00:00:09.119 --> 00:00:11.279
Welcome to love, Mary Kill.

8
00:00:26.039 --> 00:00:27.920
Hey Tina, Hey Rich. How are you?

9
00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:29.039
I'm great? How are you?

10
00:00:29.280 --> 00:00:32.719
I'm doing okay, A little tired. Yeah, because something kind

11
00:00:32.719 --> 00:00:34.479
of weird happened this morning. And I don't know if

12
00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:37.600
it's Friday the thirteenth or what, but I woke I

13
00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:39.880
had hard time sleeping, and I woke up and I

14
00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:41.159
was like, you know, I'm just going to get out

15
00:00:41.159 --> 00:00:43.560
of bed. It was six am, and I got out

16
00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:45.640
of bed, and right as I got out of bed,

17
00:00:45.759 --> 00:00:49.200
the light next to my bed turned on. And I

18
00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:52.759
swear to you, I didn't touch anything. I used my

19
00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:54.359
phone to turn it on, but I didn't have my

20
00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:57.039
phone in my hand. My phone was locked. And it

21
00:00:57.119 --> 00:00:59.000
freaked me out. Like I got up and the light

22
00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:01.840
just turned on. I stood up, and I think it

23
00:01:01.880 --> 00:01:03.280
woke you up too, and I felt bad.

24
00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:06.959
Well, it was fine, but we have our house is

25
00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:12.200
a smart house, a smart house, a relatively smart house,

26
00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:14.319
not only because we live here, but we have a

27
00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:16.879
lot of gadgets that are connected to the Internet, as

28
00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:18.680
a lot of people do these days, and it's great

29
00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:22.359
when it works, but sometimes it can kind of scare

30
00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:23.000
you a little bit.

31
00:01:23.599 --> 00:01:25.560
I think it was some kind of Friday the thirteenth

32
00:01:25.719 --> 00:01:27.599
sort of supernatural things. I'm just going to go with

33
00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:30.959
that where yes, I have a snack for you.

34
00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:34.519
Would you like it's a pair, because we have like

35
00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:38.200
a dozen ripe pairs that they all became ripe but

36
00:01:38.280 --> 00:01:39.120
the same.

37
00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:40.959
Oh that always happens. No, it is not a pair.

38
00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:44.000
I'm sorry, but you can get a pair after we're done.

39
00:01:44.359 --> 00:01:46.400
We already had one time. It was already a little

40
00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:49.359
like twelve hours past its prime. So I missed. Oh

41
00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:51.400
that's too bad, should have gotten up at two am.

42
00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:54.319
Well, today's the case we're going to talk about today

43
00:01:54.359 --> 00:01:56.560
is set in Texas, and you know I try to.

44
00:01:56.519 --> 00:01:59.280
Start bright and big at night.

45
00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:02.519
You know you were gonna bless us with a song

46
00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:06.239
today that is very nice. But so I picked up

47
00:02:06.280 --> 00:02:13.080
some tortilla chips, Julio's Tortilla chips, which are from Texas Amazon. No,

48
00:02:13.319 --> 00:02:15.599
these came from the grocery store.

49
00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:17.800
Okay, And I got a box from Amazon.

50
00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:20.479
That'll be that'll be in part two. And I got

51
00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:24.159
some salsa from Texas, also some Mataos gourmet salsa, and

52
00:02:24.199 --> 00:02:27.479
then I don't like, oh well okay. And then I

53
00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:29.479
also got this is not from Texas, but I got

54
00:02:29.479 --> 00:02:35.599
some Valveda caso kind of salsa. So I just you know,

55
00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:38.120
Valveda can't can't beat it, So I thought.

56
00:02:37.960 --> 00:02:40.280
You can't know you can't.

57
00:02:40.439 --> 00:02:42.759
Thought it would be good to try their their caso

58
00:02:42.919 --> 00:02:43.360
as well.

59
00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:45.639
Well, awesome, thank you, all.

60
00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:55.680
Right, we'll be right back. How did you like Julio's tortillo?

61
00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:59.520
They were different. They're corni er, which sounds silly, but

62
00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:02.520
we like there corny. Didn't they say I'm not the

63
00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:03.560
biggest corn person.

64
00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:07.039
I was saying that, like metaphorically, gotcha.

65
00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:11.800
Yeah. The Felvito was Velvedo, and I do like the

66
00:03:11.879 --> 00:03:15.159
Matteo salsa I've gotten. It was pretty good Costco before

67
00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:17.639
and you did not like it. You were like, oh well,

68
00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:19.879
I hate this kind of salsa, so you didn't mind

69
00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:20.240
it today.

70
00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:22.199
Maybe you just I only took one bite, but it

71
00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:24.639
seemed okay to me. I really like the corn. The

72
00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:28.319
tortilla chips though, they're very a little lighter and crispier,

73
00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:31.039
yeah than kind of the heavier tortilla chip.

74
00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:32.479
So I was just laughing. Do you know what the

75
00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:37.199
first ingredient on the bag says? What the first ingredient is?

76
00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:38.120
Tortilla chip?

77
00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:39.879
Okay?

78
00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:42.080
I like that. There's a cute little picture of Julio

79
00:03:42.199 --> 00:03:44.919
and Lilia Garcia on the bag.

80
00:03:45.080 --> 00:03:46.599
Oh that's very nice.

81
00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:50.280
I would give those a seven out of ten, the

82
00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:56.039
salsa nine out of ten, and the Vealvedo I don't know.

83
00:03:56.120 --> 00:03:59.159
I like it. I like Colvito. It's really hot, but

84
00:03:59.199 --> 00:04:00.680
it has to be really hot. I guess i'd give

85
00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:01.719
it like a seven out of ten.

86
00:04:01.800 --> 00:04:03.840
Okay, I'm gonna give the chips eight out of ten,

87
00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:07.680
salsa seven out of ten, alvita seven out of you give.

88
00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:10.599
Us also a seven out of ten. That's really bizarre,

89
00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:14.199
that's weird. Well, I guess you're a new man every day.

90
00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:15.159
I A you never know.

91
00:04:16.360 --> 00:04:18.480
Before we get started, I want to give a quick

92
00:04:18.519 --> 00:04:21.680
shout out to our listener friend Brittany, who told me

93
00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:24.519
that she is training for a marathon and that we

94
00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:27.600
have been getting through her through her training sessions.

95
00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:28.519
Is amazing.

96
00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:30.279
I know that is very exciting.

97
00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:31.879
Awesome. Good luck, So I know.

98
00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:35.920
We love to hear where you guys are listening to us.

99
00:04:35.959 --> 00:04:38.000
It just is really it's really fun.

100
00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:39.680
It makes our day, Yeah, it really does.

101
00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:41.639
We go for a lot of dog walks. Some people

102
00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:43.439
take us on family vacations, so.

103
00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:48.040
Some people fall asleep to us.

104
00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:51.319
True, it's hard to believe, but yes, So thanks everyone,

105
00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:53.279
and you know, send us a DM and let us

106
00:04:53.319 --> 00:04:54.959
know where you're listening to us from.

107
00:04:56.040 --> 00:04:58.560
Well, a warning before we get into today's case. This

108
00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:02.199
episode will contain descript that may be disturbing, including sexual

109
00:05:02.199 --> 00:05:04.759
assault and the death of a child, so please listen

110
00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:08.959
with care. Today's case is a request from our listener, Natalie.

111
00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:11.360
Thanks for the recommendation, Natalie, we appreciate it.

112
00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:14.639
If you have sent us a recommendation, thank you so much.

113
00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:17.720
We appreciate it. We'd love to hear from everyone. We

114
00:05:17.800 --> 00:05:19.399
have a pretty long list at this point.

115
00:05:19.720 --> 00:05:20.560
It's a big backlaw.

116
00:05:20.680 --> 00:05:23.639
You've sent us sent us a request a while back,

117
00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:27.399
feel free to send it again. I am getting better

118
00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:30.399
about adding it to the spreadsheet, but I do have

119
00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:35.439
lists on my phone, on my computer and the Excel spreadsheets.

120
00:05:34.879 --> 00:05:37.639
All over the place, and we do look at every request.

121
00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:40.319
Some of them we look at and we just can't

122
00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:43.600
do because there's not enough information or we just aren't

123
00:05:43.639 --> 00:05:46.040
able to find enough research on it. But we do

124
00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:49.240
appreciate getting requests and we take a look at everyone.

125
00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:52.240
I did want to say before we get into today's case,

126
00:05:52.240 --> 00:05:54.560
it's going to be a long one. I think it'll

127
00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:57.160
be a three parter because there is a lot and

128
00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:00.519
I think it's a really really interesting case. Source for

129
00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:03.040
the case is a book called Deadly Little Secrets by

130
00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:07.439
Catherine Casey, really really good book, full of really good details,

131
00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:09.480
and that's why I wanted to make sure we go

132
00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:11.120
into everything, and I think there will be a lot

133
00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:13.920
to discuss as well. There's also the entire trial is

134
00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:17.439
on Court TV as well, and there's other shows and articles,

135
00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:19.680
so there's a lot of information about it and I think,

136
00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:22.360
like I said, I think it's really interesting. The case

137
00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:25.720
does make me emotional as well, so be prepared for that.

138
00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:28.480
I'm going to try my best. But it's really about

139
00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:32.879
a story about perseverance, a fight for justice against all odds,

140
00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:36.519
and really just a family's love and they wouldn't give

141
00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:38.199
up in the face of adversity, and so I think

142
00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:41.600
it's a great story on the surface, Matt and Carrie

143
00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:44.399
Baker seemed like the perfect couple with the perfect family,

144
00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:47.720
living in the Waco, Texas area. Matt was a Baptist

145
00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:51.160
minister and Carrie was a third grade teacher. They were

146
00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:54.399
raising two beautiful daughters, Kenzie and Grace, who were nine

147
00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:58.199
and five, respectively in April two thousand and six. But

148
00:06:58.360 --> 00:07:01.639
Carrie's family and friends knew that she had struggled. Seven

149
00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:04.879
years earlier, she and Matt had lost another daughter, Cassidy,

150
00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:08.879
to a brain tumor, soon after her first birthday. Carrie

151
00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:11.560
worked through her grief with the support of family, friends,

152
00:07:11.560 --> 00:07:14.519
and therapy, but it was still hard, especially when the

153
00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:19.160
anniversary of Cassidy's death approached every year. More recently, Carrie

154
00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:22.079
had confided in friends about the marital problems that she

155
00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:25.360
and Matt had been having. Carrie didn't know what was wrong,

156
00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:28.360
but she knew that something had changed. Carrie had been

157
00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:31.759
steadfastly supportive of Matt through the years, through all of

158
00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:34.839
his schooling, and through his many jobs at different churches,

159
00:07:34.959 --> 00:07:39.160
community centers, and juvenile facilities, but now he didn't seem

160
00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:41.439
to want her anymore, and she wondered what was going on.

161
00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:44.079
She wanted to fix it, no matter what it took.

162
00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:47.360
In early April two thousand and six, Carrie saw a

163
00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:50.680
doctor about her increasing anxiety and went back to the

164
00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:53.920
counselor she had seen years earlier after Cassidy had died.

165
00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:58.000
And then on Friday evening April seventh, Matt came back

166
00:07:58.040 --> 00:08:00.600
from the video store to find their bedroom doors or locked.

167
00:08:01.120 --> 00:08:03.560
He forced the door open and found Carrie lying on

168
00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:07.959
the bed, unresponsive. He called nine one one and attempted CPR,

169
00:08:08.040 --> 00:08:11.439
but it was too late. Carrie was dead. The empty

170
00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:14.160
bottle of sleeping pills and the suicide note, along with

171
00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:16.879
the background Matt provided to the police about the loss

172
00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:20.120
of their child and Carrie's history of depression, made this

173
00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:24.000
an open and shutcase. It was quickly determined to be suicide,

174
00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:27.879
but Carrie's family and friends had a hard time accepting

175
00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:31.000
that conclusion. They saw someone who was a fighter and

176
00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:33.679
would do anything to be there for her two living daughters.

177
00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:36.759
They were determined to find out the truth, no matter

178
00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:39.399
how long it would take or how difficult it would be,

179
00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:42.200
and it would be a long and challenging journey.

180
00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:46.360
Carrie was born in Salt Lake City, Utah, in nineteen

181
00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:49.600
seventy four. Her mom was Linda and her dad was Scott.

182
00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:52.639
We don't know Scott's last name because he tragically died

183
00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:55.720
in a motorcycle accident while Carrie was just a baby,

184
00:08:56.120 --> 00:08:58.120
so she never really knew him.

185
00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:00.960
Was she and only child then at that point she

186
00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:01.519
was yes.

187
00:09:02.080 --> 00:09:05.120
Linda relocated with Carrie to Waco, Texas, where her younger

188
00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:09.440
sister was attending Baylor University. Many of Linda's other family

189
00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:12.120
members had settled in the area as well, so it

190
00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:14.759
made sense for her to move there. She had support

191
00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:17.080
from her family and also went to counseling to work

192
00:09:17.080 --> 00:09:20.320
through her grief from losing Scott. It was a big

193
00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:22.759
help to her. She learned that it was important to

194
00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:26.240
seek help and not keep things bottled up inside. It

195
00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:28.879
was a lesson she would impart on Carrie as well.

196
00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:32.440
Linda started attending classes at Baylor to work on a

197
00:09:32.519 --> 00:09:36.679
degree in communications while raising her young daughter. Faith was

198
00:09:36.679 --> 00:09:39.519
important to her. She had been raised as a Baptist

199
00:09:39.639 --> 00:09:42.480
and would drop carry off at the first Baptist Church

200
00:09:42.519 --> 00:09:45.279
in Waco for day care while she went to work

201
00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:49.480
or school. During Christmas Break nineteen seventy seven, a fire

202
00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:52.120
broke out at the apartment that Linda and Carey shared

203
00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:55.720
with Linda's sister Kay. Luckily no one was home at

204
00:09:55.720 --> 00:09:59.519
the time, but they lost most of their possessions. Jim Doolan,

205
00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:02.159
who as a friend of one of their neighbors, offered

206
00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:05.600
his pickup truck to help transport the few belongings that

207
00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:09.519
Linda and Kay had left. Before long, Jim and Linda

208
00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:13.200
struck up a romance. The couple married in June nineteen

209
00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:17.679
seventy nine, and soon after Jim adopted Carrie. In nineteen eighty,

210
00:10:17.799 --> 00:10:21.799
Linda and Jim had a boy named Adam. Carrie was

211
00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:25.840
an active, outgoing and popular kid. She loved the outdoors,

212
00:10:25.879 --> 00:10:28.799
and she was into sports, playing basketball in junior high

213
00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:31.679
and doing cheerleading in high school. She was active in

214
00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:36.879
the church, volunteering regularly and raising money for missionaries. Her cousin, Lindsey,

215
00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:39.519
who was five years younger than Carrie, was one of

216
00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:42.159
her best friends, more like a sister than a cousin.

217
00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.279
In nineteen ninety two, not long after Carrie turned eighteen,

218
00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:49.200
while she was still in high school, she suddenly had

219
00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:53.080
severe abdominal pains. Her dad, Jim, rushed her to the hospital,

220
00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:56.240
thinking was appendicitis, but it turned out that Carrie was

221
00:10:56.320 --> 00:11:00.600
pregnant and in the process of miscarrying. She found out,

222
00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:04.840
Carrie began sobbing, worried that her devoutly religious parents would

223
00:11:04.919 --> 00:11:07.720
think less of her, but nothing could be further from

224
00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:10.960
the truth. Linda and Jim were caring and supportive and

225
00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:13.840
assured their daughter that they didn't think any less of her.

226
00:11:14.759 --> 00:11:18.200
After graduating high school, Carrie decided to attend Texas Tech

227
00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:22.279
University in Lubbock, about three hundred fifty miles away from Waco.

228
00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:25.600
She went there for a year, but decided it wasn't

229
00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:28.279
the right fit for her. There were too many parties

230
00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:31.559
and too many temptations. Carrie wanted to focus on her

231
00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:34.840
studies and live a good Christian life, and she really

232
00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:37.159
wanted to find a good Christian man to build a

233
00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:40.759
life and family around. So she came back that summer

234
00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:43.320
and got a job at the First Baptist Church youth

235
00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:46.120
camp as a lifeguard. It was there that she met

236
00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:49.639
Matt Baker, who impressed her as the good Christian man

237
00:11:49.759 --> 00:11:53.000
that she was looking for. Matt was born in nineteen

238
00:11:53.039 --> 00:11:56.000
seventy one, three years before Carrie, and he grew up

239
00:11:56.039 --> 00:12:00.200
in Kerrville, Texas, about two hundred miles southwest of waie Go.

240
00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:04.559
The Bakers were devout Baptists whose lives revolved around the church,

241
00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:08.720
sometimes attending services three times a week in addition to

242
00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:12.639
volunteering regularly. Matt had an older sister, but grew up

243
00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:15.279
in a house full of children. Around the time he

244
00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:18.600
was three, his parents, Oscar and Barbara, started taking in

245
00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:22.480
foster children. They had many foster children, a total of

246
00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:25.679
forty nine over the years, some staying for just a

247
00:12:25.720 --> 00:12:29.200
short period and some staying for years. Some were troubled,

248
00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:33.320
and some had disabilities. They varied widely in age. At

249
00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:36.320
times they had up to ten foster children in addition

250
00:12:36.399 --> 00:12:41.159
to their two biological children. After seven years of fostering,

251
00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:44.080
Oscar and Barbara decided to stop and focus their attention

252
00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:47.519
on Matt and his older sisters Stacy. While they felt

253
00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:50.519
like the experience had overall been positive for their children

254
00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:54.159
being around children of different races and backgrounds, they had

255
00:12:54.200 --> 00:13:00.120
also had their share of problems police visits, attempted suicides, runaways, fights,

256
00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:04.279
and so on. They wanted some stability. Matt was a

257
00:13:04.279 --> 00:13:06.799
good kid. He never got into trouble. He was active,

258
00:13:06.919 --> 00:13:09.960
working a paper route, taking up tuba and French horn

259
00:13:10.039 --> 00:13:13.519
and band, playing sports, and working as a student trainer

260
00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:17.279
for the high school basketball team. After school and on weekends,

261
00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:19.879
Matt would work with his dad as a handyman, taking

262
00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:24.279
on jobs doing carpentry, mowing lawns, painting, and whatever other

263
00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:27.840
work he could find. During high school, Matt decided that

264
00:13:27.879 --> 00:13:30.480
he wanted to dedicate his future to teaching the gospel.

265
00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:34.919
He decided to attend Baylor University, a private Baptist research

266
00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:40.159
university in Waco, and study church recreation and athletic training.

267
00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:43.600
I had no idea that church recreation was a degree.

268
00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:45.240
It's actually a miner. I don't know if it was

269
00:13:45.320 --> 00:13:48.000
a major back then, but today it's a minor area

270
00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:51.600
of concentration that you can study At Baylor. You take

271
00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:55.600
classes in the theory and practice of outdoor adventure programs,

272
00:13:55.759 --> 00:13:59.159
introduction to the ministry, and principles of church recreation.

273
00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:01.799
So maybe like that would be a degree someone who

274
00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:04.240
wanted to be like a youth leader might take on.

275
00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:07.840
Yeah, exactly. During college, Matt worked as a trainer for

276
00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:11.159
Baylor's football team, and this would be the beginning, at

277
00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:13.960
least as far as we know of Matt's history of

278
00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:18.279
sexually assaulting women and not being held accountable. During his

279
00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:21.840
sophomore year, a young freshman woman named Laura Wilson came

280
00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:24.639
to work with him as an athletic trainer. It was

281
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:27.639
common that the freshman trainers underwent some hazing from the

282
00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:31.080
upper classmen. It was generally harmless, like being made to

283
00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:34.120
sing songs outside of the team doctor's home and to

284
00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:38.279
scrub bathroom floors and toilets with a toothbrush. One afternoon

285
00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:41.799
during finals week, Matt was supervising Laura as she cleaned

286
00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:44.399
one of the locker rooms. The two were alone and

287
00:14:44.440 --> 00:14:46.879
no one was around because it was outside of normal

288
00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:50.720
football practice hours. While Laura was cleaning the bathroom and

289
00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:53.320
Matt was supposed to be cleaning another part of the facility,

290
00:14:53.480 --> 00:14:56.840
she suddenly realized he was standing right behind her. He

291
00:14:56.919 --> 00:15:00.080
pinned her arms behind her back, forced himself against her,

292
00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:03.440
and tried to kiss her. She struggled against his advances,

293
00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:06.000
but he wouldn't stop. He picked her up and put

294
00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:08.720
her down on the sink, forcing himself between her legs

295
00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:11.440
and continuing to try and kiss her. He held her

296
00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:14.080
arms behind her back with one hand while fondling her

297
00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:18.080
with the other. She screamed and bit his shoulder. Just

298
00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:21.399
as suddenly as his attack started, he stopped, saying I'm

299
00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:25.879
done and walked away, leaving her crying and shaking. Laura

300
00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:28.399
called her mother, who told her to report the incident

301
00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:31.559
to the head trainer, which she did. Her parents came

302
00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:33.440
to campus and went with her to meet with the

303
00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:36.759
head trainer. He then called Matt in, who admitted to

304
00:15:36.799 --> 00:15:39.000
what he had done, but claimed that he didn't realize

305
00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:42.320
he was hurting her or that she wasn't welcoming his advances.

306
00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:45.519
The head trainer told Laura and her parents that the

307
00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:48.639
university would handle it, and he turned to Matt while

308
00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:51.559
they were there and said, quote, you understand you will

309
00:15:51.559 --> 00:15:54.799
have to be disciplined for this right. Matt responded in

310
00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:59.080
the affirmative. But Matt's discipline quote unquote, turned out to

311
00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:02.120
be more like a promoter. He was confined to work

312
00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:04.440
in the training room with the football players, which was

313
00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:08.240
really more prestigious than what he had been doing. Laura

314
00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:11.600
was traumatized by the experience. She refused to go to counseling,

315
00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:15.080
although her parents urged her to. Laura she tried to

316
00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:17.440
come back and work on the athletic training team after

317
00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:20.000
winter break ended, but she found that her colleagues were

318
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:23.200
whispering about her behind her back and accusing her of

319
00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:26.799
fabricating the incident with Matt. She ended up dropping out

320
00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:29.480
of Baylor before the next semester ended, and struggled with

321
00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:33.759
nightmares for years after. Just a month after that incident,

322
00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:36.480
Matt was home in Kerville visiting family when he went

323
00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:38.440
out with a girl he had dated in high school.

324
00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:40.960
She and Matt ended up at the house where she

325
00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:44.039
lived with her parents. They were making out and suddenly

326
00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:47.080
Matt became very aggressive. She would later say it took

327
00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:49.080
all of her strength to keep him from tearing her

328
00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:51.600
clothes off, and he only stopped when they heard her

329
00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:55.440
parents coming home. Later that semester, Matt got a job

330
00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:57.960
as an intern in the recreation department of the First

331
00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:01.120
Baptist Church in Waco. Would work at the rec center

332
00:17:01.159 --> 00:17:03.759
and the youth summer camp, which is where he met

333
00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:07.839
Carrie Doolin in early summer nineteen ninety four. So, as

334
00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:09.319
you can see, this is the this is going to

335
00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:11.400
be the beginning of a pattern with Matt, and it's

336
00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:15.400
just so it's just so frustrating that these things tend

337
00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:17.880
to happen, and a lot of times they just get

338
00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:20.119
shrugged off as sort of a he said, she said

339
00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:23.400
type of thing, and people like Matt just don't seem

340
00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:24.920
to face the consequences enough.

341
00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:29.680
Believe the victims, believe the survivors. What would the appropriate

342
00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:34.200
punishment have been during those first offensives that would have

343
00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:38.279
prevented him from having any future in.

344
00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:41.200
My opinion, getting suspended from school for a period of

345
00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:43.000
time or losing his job.

346
00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:45.440
Oh yeah, I think those things should have happened. Yeah,

347
00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:48.039
I guess I mean that. But he still would have

348
00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:50.640
gone on and been an abusive spouse.

349
00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:54.680
Yeah, very very likely. Matt and Carey quickly became serious.

350
00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:57.559
They shared a common background in the Baptist Church, a

351
00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:01.000
passion for their faith, and the love of family. Carrie

352
00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:03.400
told her friends that she knew from the very beginning

353
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:06.759
that Matt was the one. Carrie's family wasn't so sure.

354
00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:09.640
Her mom, Linda, thought Matt seemed a little somber and

355
00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:12.880
quiet compared to Carrie, who was always upbeat and positive.

356
00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:17.119
Carrie's younger brother, Adam, instinctively hated Matt from the beginning.

357
00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:20.599
Linda had to tell him to be nice, and Carrie's

358
00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:23.359
cousin Lindsay, who was more like a sister or best friend,

359
00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:26.960
said that Matt gave off some creepy vibes. She said

360
00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:28.759
that when he would hug her, it seemed like he

361
00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:31.799
was enjoying it too much, and he would sometimes make

362
00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:35.400
suggestive hand gestures when he would see Lindsay, as if

363
00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:39.599
he was squeezing her breasts. I know it's so gross, horrible,

364
00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:42.480
but Carrie was clearly in love with him, so Lindsay

365
00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:45.799
brushed off her concerns, thinking maybe she was imagining it.

366
00:18:46.759 --> 00:18:49.440
Carrie's mom and dad tried to get her to slow down,

367
00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:51.960
but she knew what she wanted. They decided to get

368
00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:55.160
married in August before the fall semester at Baylor started,

369
00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:58.599
just months after they met. Linda tried to talk Carrie

370
00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:00.880
into waiting so they could get to know each other better,

371
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:03.720
but Carrie assured her, saying, Mom, this guy is a

372
00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:04.680
really good Christian.

373
00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:06.799
How long had they been dating for?

374
00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:11.920
Really? Only about three or four months? I think you're

375
00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:12.680
making a face.

376
00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:16.920
Well I'm a mom, yeah, and I yeah. That would

377
00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:19.319
I wouldn't like it, that would like it at all?

378
00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:22.039
That would be tough. They got married on August twentieth

379
00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:25.319
nineteen ninety four, Matt was almost twenty three and Carrie

380
00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:29.359
had just turned twenty. Matt's relationship and marriage to Carrie

381
00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:32.920
didn't stop him from continuing his pattern of assaulting girls

382
00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:36.519
and women. At First Baptist, where he was interning, a

383
00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:39.599
teenage gymnast came forward to complain that Matt had been

384
00:19:39.640 --> 00:19:43.079
pressuring her to have sex. Matt's boss called him in.

385
00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:46.720
Matt denied that anything improper had happened, and his boss

386
00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:49.799
put it down to another he said, she said situation.

387
00:19:50.599 --> 00:19:53.200
He gave Matt a warning to be more careful and

388
00:19:53.240 --> 00:19:55.839
told him to not put himself in situations where he

389
00:19:55.920 --> 00:19:59.640
was alone with teenage girls at camp. A little bit later,

390
00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:02.799
around the time he married Carrie, another woman came forward.

391
00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:05.400
This time it was a middle aged woman who worked

392
00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:08.799
as a custodian at the camp. She claimed that Matt

393
00:20:08.839 --> 00:20:11.599
asked her to have sex, saying, quote, I know what

394
00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:13.480
it's like to be with a young woman. I'd like

395
00:20:13.519 --> 00:20:15.039
to know what it's like to be with a mature

396
00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:19.000
woman unquote. She was appalled and reported Matt, who again

397
00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:23.079
denied everything. Matt's boss gave him another warning, saying, oh,

398
00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:26.839
get you know if you're doing this kind of thing,

399
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:29.920
you need to get professional help. But his boss didn't

400
00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:33.640
want to ruin a young man's career based on unproven accusations,

401
00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:36.759
so Matt continued working at the church for another year,

402
00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:40.039
with no other incidents being reported during that time.

403
00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:43.759
The accusation wasn't disproven.

404
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:45.599
Either, right, and it was two women. It wasn't just

405
00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:48.359
one either, So yeah, it's really frustrating.

406
00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:49.880
It's super frustrating.

407
00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:53.559
His boss did, however, write up a detailed report about

408
00:20:53.559 --> 00:20:56.039
Matt's alleged behavior, and he put it in the safe

409
00:20:56.079 --> 00:20:58.559
at work in case anyone called in the future for

410
00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:01.799
a reference about him. But it seems like that this

411
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:05.440
type of reference check didn't seem to happen very often. Unfortunately,

412
00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:10.000
Carrie heard about these allegations and she was livid, not

413
00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:12.720
at Matt, but at the women who made the accusations.

414
00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:15.160
She thought they were jealous or out to get her

415
00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:18.119
husband for some reason. Maybe they had been flirting with

416
00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:21.079
Matt and he had rejected their advances, but she was

417
00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:23.680
positive that Matt would never do anything like what they

418
00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:27.559
had claimed. Years later, Carrie sent the following advice to

419
00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:29.759
a young woman planning to marry a man who was

420
00:21:29.799 --> 00:21:33.480
studying for the ministry. She said, quote, people will attack

421
00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:36.839
your husband. They'll say false things because they'll have agendas.

422
00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:39.920
Sometimes women will tell lies because they'll see a good

423
00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:42.720
man and want him for themselves. You have to love

424
00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:45.240
your husband and believe in him even when no one

425
00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:47.839
else does. The ministry is a hard life, and you

426
00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:49.759
have to back up your husband and be there for

427
00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:53.240
him so that he can do God's work unquote. So

428
00:21:53.240 --> 00:21:55.640
we've already heard quite a few examples of Matt and

429
00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:58.160
his behavior, and I'm sure you won't be surprised to

430
00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:00.240
learn there are going to be more examples as well.

431
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:06.359
Carrie stood by him steadfastly. I always wonder in situations

432
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:08.039
like that, do you think in her heart of heart

433
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:11.119
she knew that her husband was a cree?

434
00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:14.759
Well, this case does take place thirty years ago, true,

435
00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:17.440
before the Me Too movement, and I think it was

436
00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:20.640
more likely thirty years ago that a woman would stand

437
00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:24.039
by her man. Yeah, So let's just hope that if

438
00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:27.960
this happened today, that Carrie would be wiser. Yeah, or

439
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:32.440
women today are wiser and realize that, you know, men

440
00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:34.480
happens a lot. It happens a lot, and men can

441
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:37.240
be not all men. There's plenty of lovely men, but

442
00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:38.240
a lot of men are dogs.

443
00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:40.759
Yeah, that is a very good point.

444
00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:43.920
After they married, Carrie and Matt moved into a townhouse

445
00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:47.279
that was owned by Carrie's aunt Nancy. Soon after finishing

446
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:51.079
his undergrad degree, Matt decided to pursue his master's degree

447
00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:54.720
and divinity at Baylor's Seminary School. What a good fit

448
00:22:54.759 --> 00:22:58.279
for such a godly man. Yeah, Carrie encouraged him, knowing

449
00:22:58.359 --> 00:23:00.680
he would need the advanced degree if he wanted to

450
00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:04.559
have a real career in the Baptist church. Around that time,

451
00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:07.359
Carrie became pregnant, and Matt quit his job at the

452
00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:11.480
First Baptist Church and started working at the Waco YMCA

453
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:16.359
running the children's after school program. In April nineteen ninety six,

454
00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:20.279
Kenzie Baker was born. Two months later, three teenage girls,

455
00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:24.799
later joined by a fourth filed complaints against Matt at

456
00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:29.920
the YMCA, accusing him of making unwanted advances, pressuring them

457
00:23:29.960 --> 00:23:33.440
to have sex, and refusing to back down. One girl

458
00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:36.680
said that Matt croped her aggressively and grabbed her hand,

459
00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:40.680
forcing it to his crotch, before being startled by a

460
00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:44.279
phone ringing and letting her go. This time, Matt was

461
00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:48.039
actually fired immediately. He told Carrie that all he was

462
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:51.079
guilty of was trying to counsel the girls against becoming

463
00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:54.680
sexually active until they were older. Somehow they must have

464
00:23:54.799 --> 00:24:00.079
misinterpreted his intentions. Again, Carrie stood by her man. In

465
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:03.160
January nineteen ninety seven, while Kenzie was still a baby,

466
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:05.960
Carrie went back to school at Baylor to continue working

467
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:08.799
on her degree. She had decided to pursue a degree

468
00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:12.680
in education and become a teacher. Although some of Carrie's

469
00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:15.720
friends and relatives had heard about the accusations against Matt,

470
00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:19.279
her parents, Linda and Jim, were largely in the dark.

471
00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:21.559
They just thought it was weird that Matt seemed to

472
00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:25.279
go everywhere with Carrie. For example, when she would go

473
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:27.599
to get her hair cut and dyed blonde, he would

474
00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:31.759
come with her to the salon. Carrie explained to her parents, quote,

475
00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:34.720
Matt just loves me and doesn't want to be without me.

476
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:37.680
And I feel sorry for Matt. He doesn't have any

477
00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:40.039
real friends. End quote John, I wonder.

478
00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:40.359
Why I know.

479
00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:43.039
In summer of nineteen ninety six, Matt got a new

480
00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:46.559
job as recreation director for a church in downtown Waco.

481
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:50.440
But he only lasted four months at this job, and

482
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:53.119
we don't know why. But soon he got a job

483
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:56.880
as pastor at Pecan Grove Baptist Church, which was considered

484
00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:00.079
a prime posting for seminary students who were considered to

485
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.440
to be on the fast track for future growth in

486
00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:08.000
the Baptist church. Meanwhile, the accusations against Matt kept coming.

487
00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:11.599
A teenage girl who lived behind Carrie and Matt said

488
00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:13.839
that Matt approached her in the parking lot one day,

489
00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:17.240
asked if she'd ever been kissed by a boy, and

490
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:20.000
then grabbed her and kissed her on the lips. The

491
00:25:20.039 --> 00:25:23.960
girl told her mom. Her mom happened to know Carrie's aunt, Nancy,

492
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:27.079
so she told her, but she said her daughter did

493
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:32.240
sometimes exaggerate, so she was a bit hesitant. Nancy told Linda,

494
00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:36.799
Carrie's mom, who told Carrie. Carrie got angry and insisted

495
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:40.359
the girl must be lying. So at this point, there's

496
00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:42.839
twelve allegations against him.

497
00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:45.079
Pretty close. Yeah, and you know there are probably others

498
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:46.759
that weren't reported, you know.

499
00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:50.279
In early nineteen ninety seven, Carrie got pregnant again and

500
00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:54.720
gave birth to another daughter, Cassidy. In November. Coincidentally, the

501
00:25:54.759 --> 00:25:57.680
same month, Laura Wilson, who had worked with Matt in

502
00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:00.920
the athletic training department about five years earlier, was that

503
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:04.960
at Baylor, Yes they'd worked together in the locker room,

504
00:26:05.400 --> 00:26:08.079
was still having nightmares about the attack and decided to

505
00:26:08.119 --> 00:26:11.319
report it to the police. Poor Laura, she really struggled

506
00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:14.680
after that. The police she spoke to listened with interest,

507
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:17.680
but then came back and apologized because the statute of

508
00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:19.640
limitations had expired.

509
00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:21.200
And it must have just expired, because I looked it

510
00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:24.480
up in the Statute of Limitations on Sexual Assault in

511
00:26:24.519 --> 00:26:28.000
Texas's five years and this was almost exactly five years.

512
00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:29.440
After her always thought it was seven, but I guess

513
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:32.519
it's different for different crimes. There was nothing the police

514
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:35.400
could do. By the end of nineteen ninety seven, Matt

515
00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:38.079
was doing while in his master's program, and Carrie was

516
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:41.720
almost done taking classes for her bachelor's degree in education.

517
00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:45.160
She was set to start student teaching the next fall.

518
00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:48.519
In March nineteen ninety eight, Matt got a new job

519
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:52.599
at Williams Creek Baptist Church in Axtell, Texas, not far

520
00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:56.599
from Waco. Carrie also got involved leading the church's youth

521
00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:09.240
group and teaching women's Bible study after a break. So far,

522
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:12.720
I am not liking this Matt guy at all, and

523
00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:15.599
I'm not sure why he wants to be in the ministry.

524
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.240
Well, that is a good question. If I had to

525
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:20.559
give you my theory, it would be because he wanted

526
00:27:20.599 --> 00:27:23.839
to be in a position of power where he would

527
00:27:24.039 --> 00:27:26.720
be interacting with young girls and women.

528
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:28.319
Gross yes.

529
00:27:29.319 --> 00:27:32.799
On Cassidy's first birthday in November nineteen ninety eight, the

530
00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:36.119
baby got sick and threw up. No one was too worried,

531
00:27:36.200 --> 00:27:39.279
probably just too much cake, they thought, but the vomiting

532
00:27:39.319 --> 00:27:42.759
continued the next day and got worse. Carrie and Matt

533
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:44.720
took her to a doctor who said it was most

534
00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:47.480
likely a stomach bug. Just give her lots of fluids

535
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:50.519
and she should get better soon. But she didn't get better.

536
00:27:50.759 --> 00:27:53.200
In fact, she kept getting worse and Carrie was having

537
00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:56.440
a hard time getting any fluids into her. They finally

538
00:27:56.519 --> 00:27:58.920
took her into the er, where the doctor was unsure

539
00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:01.400
of what was going on. They put her on an

540
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:04.319
IV to get her hydrated, but then Cassidy suddenly had

541
00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:08.279
a seizure. They did a spinal tap, which ruled out meningitis,

542
00:28:08.359 --> 00:28:11.720
then sent her for an MRI. The MRI revealed a

543
00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:15.119
tumor at the base of Cassidy's brain. It appeared to

544
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:18.640
be growing and was life threatening, so the doctors recommended surgery.

545
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:22.720
It would be a lengthy and risky operation. The risk

546
00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:24.839
was not only from the tumor, but also because of

547
00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:27.519
the length of time that Cassidy would need to be sedated.

548
00:28:28.200 --> 00:28:31.440
Sedating children under three for more than three hours carries

549
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:34.759
an increased risk of brain development issues or even death.

550
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:38.039
The surgeon told Carrie and Matt there was a chance

551
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:40.839
that Cassidy wouldn't make it through the operation, but without

552
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:44.640
the surgery she would almost certainly die. The surgery took

553
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:48.039
place the day before Thanksgiving. When it was done, the

554
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:50.920
surgeon told them the tumor had been completely removed and

555
00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:54.680
Cassidy was recovering in the pediatric ICU. She was not

556
00:28:54.759 --> 00:28:57.079
out of the woods, though the doctors were still worried

557
00:28:57.079 --> 00:28:59.880
about the effect of the anesthesia and still didn't know

558
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:01.000
if she would pull through.

559
00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:04.000
My heart goes out to any parent that has had

560
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:06.680
to deal with any issue like this. I know it's

561
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:09.799
so heartbreaking, so so hard on the whole family.

562
00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:14.799
Soon they got some bad news. Cassidy had pulmonary edema,

563
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:17.839
meaning that fluid was building up in her lungs. The

564
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:21.400
outlook wasn't good. In a last ditch effort to save her,

565
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:24.079
they did a tracheotomy and put her into a medically

566
00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:26.559
induced coma in hopes that her body would be able

567
00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:30.799
to heal itself. Days turned into weeks. The family all

568
00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:33.119
rotated in and out of the hospital to have someone

569
00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:36.920
at Cassidy's side at all times. Cassidy was a fighter.

570
00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:40.039
She was in the pediatric ICU for forty three days

571
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:43.279
when her doctors finally decided she had turned a corner

572
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:46.400
on her road to recovery. They transferred her to the

573
00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:49.359
tracheotomy unit and soon felt like she was ready to

574
00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:52.839
go home. She was still being fed through a gastric tube,

575
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.039
and she still required the trake tube for breathing, so

576
00:29:56.119 --> 00:29:58.039
Matt and Carey both had to learn how to care

577
00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:00.759
for her. The doctor said she should be able to

578
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:03.680
have both of those tubes removed within a couple of months.

579
00:30:04.359 --> 00:30:07.480
Cassidy finally went home in late February after two months

580
00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:11.200
in the hospital. While Cassidy was in the hospital, Matt

581
00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:14.680
still found time for his other pursuits. One day, Carrie's

582
00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:17.119
cousin Lindsay came to the hospital with a friend from

583
00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:19.559
her job at the Cracker Barrel, a twenty year old

584
00:30:19.559 --> 00:30:22.559
young woman named Aaron. On the way to the hospital,

585
00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:25.519
Lindsey warned Aaron to be careful around Matt, as he

586
00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:28.319
was kind of a creep. Aaron was like, right, he's

587
00:30:28.359 --> 00:30:29.960
going to hit on me while his baby is in

588
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:33.279
the hospital fighting for her life. And Carrie was like, yeah,

589
00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:36.319
I wouldn't put it past him. And sure enough, while

590
00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:39.440
Lindsay and Carrie were in seeing Cassidy, Matt came and

591
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:42.279
sat by Aaron in the waiting room. He said, you

592
00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:45.680
know you're a beautiful girl. Oh my, oh, I know

593
00:30:45.880 --> 00:30:48.039
this is going to make you really mad. Eron just

594
00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:50.799
said thanks. Then he moved closer and he put his

595
00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:53.079
hand on her leg and he said, they gave us

596
00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:55.640
a room to stay in while Cassidy's here. It's close.

597
00:30:55.720 --> 00:30:59.279
Would you like to see it? He did not, he did.

598
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:04.839
Aaron said no, thanks, I don't think that's appropriate. Matt persisted, saying,

599
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:07.640
Lindsay and Carrie will be gone at least fifteen minutes.

600
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:10.079
The room is right down the hall. He moved his

601
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:13.759
hand to her upper thigh, and Aaron said no more emphatically,

602
00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:18.920
this time not taking the hint. Matt started rubbing her shoulders. Fortunately,

603
00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:21.240
Carrie and Lindsay interrupted. As they came back to the

604
00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:25.200
waiting room, Aaron told Lindsay, we need to go now.

605
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:29.319
Other people observed that Matt seemed to be enjoying the

606
00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:32.519
attention while Cassidy was in the hospital. He seemed to

607
00:31:32.519 --> 00:31:34.640
love being the center of attention, and he would go

608
00:31:34.680 --> 00:31:39.559
into endless detail without showing any emotion about Cassidy's condition

609
00:31:39.720 --> 00:31:43.440
and everything that he was doing to help. Once home,

610
00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:46.759
Cassidy seemed to be improving as each day progressed. She

611
00:31:46.839 --> 00:31:49.559
was doing chemotherapy as a precaution to ensure that the

612
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:53.000
cancer didn't return. A home healthcare nurse came to the

613
00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:55.680
house during the day to take care of Cassidy so

614
00:31:55.720 --> 00:31:58.200
that Matt and Carrie could get back to work in school.

615
00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:02.680
On Friday nineteenth, Carrie and Matt took Cassidy into the

616
00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:05.799
emergency room. They were having a problem with her feeding

617
00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:09.160
tube and they didn't want to risk infection. A doctor

618
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:11.640
examined her and said she should be fine. They should

619
00:32:11.799 --> 00:32:14.200
They could just reseat the feeding tube. When she came

620
00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:16.519
in for her next chemo session in a few days,

621
00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:21.119
it wasn't anything urgent. Two days later, on a Sunday evening,

622
00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:23.960
Carrie and Matt watched the Academy Awards, where Life Is

623
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:26.720
Beautiful was the big winner, and then checked on the

624
00:32:26.720 --> 00:32:30.039
girls and went to bed. Around midnight, Matt went and

625
00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:33.599
checked on Cassidy again. He returned and told Carrie she

626
00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:37.079
was fine. For some reason, Just nine minutes later, Matt

627
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:40.400
got up and checked on Cassidy again. He later said

628
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:42.759
that something wouldn't let him sleep and he just needed

629
00:32:42.759 --> 00:32:46.160
to check again. He yelled out to Carrie that Cassidy

630
00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:49.559
wasn't breathing and to call nine one one. Matt did

631
00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:52.880
CPR while they waited for the ambulance, which rushed Cassidy

632
00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:55.880
to the hospital, but sadly, there was nothing they could do.

633
00:32:56.039 --> 00:33:00.200
Cassidy was pronounced dead. Carrie's aunt Nancy, had arrived at

634
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:02.839
the hospital right around this time and looked around the room,

635
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:07.720
seeing everyone, including the hospital staff, just bawling except for Matt.

636
00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:12.279
Matt was standing in the background emotionless, just watching. Nancy

637
00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:16.400
witnessed another strange incident. Shortly after that. Carrie sat in

638
00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:20.200
a chair, holding Cassidy's body and saying goodbye. Matt was

639
00:33:20.240 --> 00:33:23.000
standing off to the side when suddenly he rushed forward

640
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:27.400
and started grabbing at Cassidy's tracheostomy tube. Carrie was like,

641
00:33:27.400 --> 00:33:30.559
what the hell are you doing? Leave her alone. Matt said,

642
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:33.559
I just want to remove her trake. Carrie turned away

643
00:33:33.559 --> 00:33:36.839
from him, saying no, don't touch her. Looking back, Nancy

644
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:39.160
thought it was odd that Matt so urgently wanted to

645
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:44.200
remove the tube. The next day, Carrie called Cassidy's oncologist

646
00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:46.880
to let him know that she had died. His first

647
00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:50.720
reaction wasn't one of sorrow. It was confusion. He said

648
00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:53.480
something like Cassidy wasn't supposed to die. How could she

649
00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:56.279
be dead? He had been certain that she was out

650
00:33:56.279 --> 00:33:58.200
of the woods and on her way back to health.

651
00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:02.079
After getting off the phone, he'd called Child Protective Services.

652
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:06.359
A few days later, a CPS worker visited Matt and Carrie.

653
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:09.880
She interviewed them, looked around the house, and was satisfied

654
00:34:09.880 --> 00:34:13.920
that everything was fine. There was no further investigation done.

655
00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:16.320
I'm not sure whether or not an autopsy was done

656
00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:19.119
on Cassidy, but in any case, the matter was dropped

657
00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:21.119
and Carrie and Matt were left to pick up the

658
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:22.239
pieces of their lives.

659
00:34:23.320 --> 00:34:25.920
That process seemed much easier from Matt than it was

660
00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:29.519
for Carrie. Less than a week after Cassidy's death, Matt

661
00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:32.320
was back at the Pull, but delivering his sermon. He

662
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:35.800
told his congregation quote, this is where the Lord wants me.

663
00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:40.559
He gives me strength. Carrie couldn't understand how Matt seemed

664
00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:43.320
to move on as if nothing had happened. She also

665
00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:46.719
had questions about what happened that night. She confided in

666
00:34:46.760 --> 00:34:49.360
a close friend, wondering why Matt had gone to check

667
00:34:49.400 --> 00:34:52.719
on Cassidy a second time, less than ten minutes after

668
00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:55.719
he had checked on her. How could she have been

669
00:34:55.760 --> 00:34:58.840
fine and then ten minutes later be dead? Did he

670
00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:02.400
know that something was wrong? And why did Matt not

671
00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:05.920
hook Cassidy up to her breathing monitor that night? He

672
00:35:05.960 --> 00:35:08.239
had told Carrie that he didn't think she needed it

673
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:11.800
any more. She told her friend, quote, I hate thinking

674
00:35:11.800 --> 00:35:14.280
that Matt did something wrong, like with her feeding tube

675
00:35:14.920 --> 00:35:17.760
that could have caused this, But why doesn't he hurt

676
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:20.920
like I do? End quote. She told her friend that

677
00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:23.880
Matt wanted to have sex. Within days of Cassidy's passing,

678
00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:27.800
which was the first furthest thing from her mind. She said,

679
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:31.880
it almost seemed like Matt was relieved that Cassidy was gone.

680
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:34.679
Carrie's mom, Linda, was a big believer in therapy, which

681
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:37.239
had helped her deal with the loss of her first husband,

682
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:42.400
Carrie's birth father. Linda urged Carrie to go talk to someone.

683
00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:46.760
Carrie's aunt Kay recommended a friend, joe Anne Bristol, who

684
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:50.719
was a social worker in studying grief counseling. Carrie started

685
00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:54.599
seeing Joanne weekly and it helped. By the fall of

686
00:35:54.679 --> 00:35:57.000
nineteen ninety nine, Carrie had decided to go back to

687
00:35:57.000 --> 00:35:59.840
school and finish up her teaching degree. She wrote an

688
00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:03.280
in her journal addressed to Cassidy, where she said, quote,

689
00:36:03.639 --> 00:36:05.840
I don't really want to go. I'm doing it for you.

690
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:08.320
I want you to be proud of me. I wish

691
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:11.280
the pain would go away. I wish she would come back.

692
00:36:12.519 --> 00:36:14.880
That fall, members of the church where Matt was pastor

693
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:17.599
unveiled a small prayer garden they had built in front

694
00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:20.639
of the church, commemorated with a granite marker that read

695
00:36:21.079 --> 00:36:25.960
Cassidy's prayer Garden. It's so nice. Carrie could regularly be

696
00:36:26.039 --> 00:36:29.480
found sitting quietly on the bench in the garden with Kenzie.

697
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:32.679
Soon after the prayer garden was unveiled, Carrie and Matt

698
00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:36.159
announced to the congregation that they were pregnant with another daughter.

699
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:39.480
They decided to name their new baby Grace because she

700
00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:43.039
was a gift from God. Carrie finished her student teaching

701
00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:46.199
and got her education degree in May two thousand. A

702
00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:50.000
month later, Grace Baker was born around the same time.

703
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:54.079
Just over a year since losing Cassidy, Carrie was feeling better.

704
00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:57.320
She was excited about her new baby, her career, and

705
00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:00.639
her future, so she decided to end her weekly counseling

706
00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:04.360
sessions with Joanne Bristol. In the fall of two thousand,

707
00:37:04.519 --> 00:37:07.280
Matt left his job at Williams Creek Baptist Church and

708
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:10.159
found a new position as pastor of a small church

709
00:37:10.199 --> 00:37:14.880
about half an hour away from Waco in Rizel. Once again,

710
00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:17.519
Carrie got involved in the church as well, helping to

711
00:37:17.559 --> 00:37:21.400
grow the youth group to attract fifty kids every Wednesday evening.

712
00:37:21.719 --> 00:37:23.559
With how many jobs this guy has had, I was

713
00:37:23.559 --> 00:37:25.719
going to add, I was gonna say that, yeah, that's yeah,

714
00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:27.400
you want a job not done yet either.

715
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:31.000
While she was doing better, Carrie was having trouble sleeping,

716
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:34.400
still haunted by thoughts of losing her baby girl, She

717
00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:37.880
saw a doctor who prescribed ambient. She tried it but

718
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:39.920
didn't like the way it made her feel, so she

719
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:43.840
never got the prescription refilled. Instead, she started taking an

720
00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:47.239
over the counter sleep aid, a generic version of unisom.

721
00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:50.400
She would end up taking this regularly for the next

722
00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:54.920
several years. In May two thousand and one, Matt completed

723
00:37:54.960 --> 00:37:59.199
seminary school, earning his Master's of Divinity in Christian Education

724
00:37:59.360 --> 00:38:03.760
and Administry. As a graduation gift, Carrie's family got Matt

725
00:38:03.800 --> 00:38:06.920
a nice set of golf clubs. Months later, Linda asked

726
00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:10.239
Carrie why Matt never seemed to use them. She said,

727
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:12.079
Matt doesn't have any friends to play with.

728
00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:15.199
Gives me some small level of comfort to know that

729
00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:18.320
Matt hadn't didn't have any friends because he's such a horrible,

730
00:38:18.360 --> 00:38:22.440
horrible person, so he really is horrible. Around this time,

731
00:38:22.599 --> 00:38:26.239
Carrie and Matt started having money problems. One day, Carrie

732
00:38:26.239 --> 00:38:29.760
got notified that their checking account was overdrawn. She looked

733
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:31.920
at the account and found a bunch of charges for

734
00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:35.400
internet porn and phone sex. She asked Matt about it,

735
00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:37.880
and he told her that someone had stolen his debit card.

736
00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:41.599
Likely's story. Carrie went to the bank, spoke to the

737
00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:44.679
manager and told him about the fraudulent charges. She must

738
00:38:44.679 --> 00:38:47.840
have been very persuasive, because the bank manager quickly issued

739
00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:50.800
a refund. Oh wow, that probably happens a lot. Can

740
00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:54.000
you don't you think people go to their bank and

741
00:38:54.039 --> 00:38:55.119
say there's all.

742
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:59.039
These manager would be like, nope, becauld they see it

743
00:38:59.079 --> 00:38:59.519
all the time.

744
00:38:59.559 --> 00:39:01.320
I would think that too, But at the same time,

745
00:39:01.400 --> 00:39:04.000
the bank manager might just be embarrassed and wanted to

746
00:39:04.039 --> 00:39:04.360
go away.

747
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:07.000
And I'm sure they're insured thirty years ago too.

748
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:10.360
Yeah. Yeah. During the summer of two thousand and two,

749
00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:12.840
Matt left the church in Rizel and got a job

750
00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:15.360
with a much bigger church in Dallas, the North Lake

751
00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:18.159
Baptist Church. This was about an hour and a half

752
00:39:18.239 --> 00:39:20.559
from Waco, so the family packed up and moved to

753
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:24.280
a house in the Dallas suburb of Mesquite. Carrie was

754
00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:27.039
proud of Matt. She felt like he wasn't appreciated at

755
00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:30.000
the church in Rizel and he deserved something bigger and better.

756
00:39:30.679 --> 00:39:33.320
Once again, she got very involved in the church, taking

757
00:39:33.400 --> 00:39:36.320
charge of the volunteers who ran the Vacation Bible School,

758
00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:39.679
helping to raise money for programs in Third World countries

759
00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:44.119
and teaching Bible studies. A second grade teaching job opened

760
00:39:44.199 --> 00:39:47.239
up at the elementary school where Kenzie was attending kindergarten,

761
00:39:47.320 --> 00:39:50.719
and Carrie got hired. At the same time, she enrolled

762
00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:53.800
in Dallas Baptist University and started work on a master's

763
00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:57.679
degree in leadership studies with an emphasis on conflict resolution.

764
00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:01.440
During their second year in Dallas, Carrie got a second job,

765
00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:04.960
teaching one night a week at Tarletan State University in Waco.

766
00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:09.039
She was busy working during the day teaching elementary school,

767
00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:11.440
making a three hour round trip once a week to

768
00:40:11.480 --> 00:40:14.400
teach at the college, helping out of the church, working

769
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:17.239
on her master's degree, Not to mention taking care of

770
00:40:17.239 --> 00:40:20.800
her family. That's a lot that sounds exhausting, it does.

771
00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:23.280
Was she doing it because they were having financial problems?

772
00:40:23.320 --> 00:40:26.360
Is that way she felt like she needed to work

773
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:27.440
two different jobs.

774
00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:29.320
I don't know for sure, but I think the second

775
00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:31.840
job at the college was just something she wanted to

776
00:40:31.880 --> 00:40:35.119
do because it was more experienced teaching at a college level,

777
00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:39.280
so it just gave her a new experience. While Carrie

778
00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:41.599
seemed to be thriving in her career as a teacher.

779
00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:45.360
Matt began having problems at North Lake. This time it

780
00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:49.079
wasn't sexual assault allegations, though it started a few weeks

781
00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:51.559
after he began working there when he fired a staff

782
00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:53.760
member who had been a founding member of the church

783
00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:56.679
and was well liked among church members and the deacons.

784
00:40:57.159 --> 00:41:00.800
People were upset with him about that. Other problem was

785
00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:03.599
that the older members of the church didn't like Matt's style.

786
00:41:04.239 --> 00:41:06.440
He was more of a hip, young preacher than what

787
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:09.519
they were used to. He didn't lean heavily on scripture

788
00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:12.440
for his sermons. They were more about telling stories that

789
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:15.840
people could relate to. It got so bad that church

790
00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:19.000
members would hold up their Bibles during Matt's Sunday sermons

791
00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:24.079
and shouted him to preach from it imagine, and Matt's

792
00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:27.400
response was viewed as arrogant. He basically told them this

793
00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:29.079
is who I am and you just need to deal

794
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:32.840
with it. Carrie complained about the church members to her mom,

795
00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:36.360
saying they were being unfair to Matt. While Linda usually

796
00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:39.000
remained quiet about the issues Matt seemed to have at

797
00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:42.119
every job he took, this time she spoke up saying, quote,

798
00:41:42.440 --> 00:41:44.800
do you hear yourself? I want you to think, how

799
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:47.639
could this be at every church? What's the one common

800
00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:49.960
denominator at every church? Unquote?

801
00:41:50.039 --> 00:41:51.400
Oh wow, I like Carrie's mom.

802
00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:52.559
Oh she is amazing.

803
00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:57.079
It's interesting that Carrie has she's earning a degree in

804
00:41:57.159 --> 00:42:01.599
conflict resolution, all these issues with her husband.

805
00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:05.800
Yeah, maybe that's what drove her in that direction. In

806
00:42:05.840 --> 00:42:08.440
November two thousand and four, the church leaders voted to

807
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:12.039
cut Matt's salary by five thousand dollars. Soon after that,

808
00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:15.519
he resigned. The reality was that he resigned before he

809
00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:18.440
was fired, which probably would not have been long in coming.

810
00:42:19.679 --> 00:42:23.800
This guy has more jobs than you. You've got a

811
00:42:23.840 --> 00:42:24.679
lot of jobs.

812
00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:27.199
Yes, but I've not.

813
00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:28.119
Been fired from that.

814
00:42:28.360 --> 00:42:29.159
No, that's true.

815
00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:30.599
Or you haven't told me you've been fired.

816
00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:33.760
Maybe you have been No, never been fired yet. Docknwood.

817
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:36.320
Matt got a new job in Waco, which meant the

818
00:42:36.320 --> 00:42:38.800
family would have to move again just two years after

819
00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:41.719
the move to Dallas. Carrie had made good friends in

820
00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:44.400
Dallas and she liked it there. Not only that, but

821
00:42:44.480 --> 00:42:47.840
Kenzie was doing well in school, and Carrie's teaching contract

822
00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:49.679
locked her in through the end of the school year.

823
00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:51.880
Remind me how far is Dallas from Waco?

824
00:42:52.039 --> 00:42:52.679
An hour and a half?

825
00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:54.800
Okay, do you know how long it takes to drive

826
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:57.440
from one end of Texas to the other? Don't the

827
00:42:57.480 --> 00:42:58.119
whitest part.

828
00:42:58.239 --> 00:43:01.880
I have a feeling you're going to tell me. Guess

829
00:43:03.880 --> 00:43:05.000
twenty hours.

830
00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:08.960
You're closed is sixteen hours. Texas is eight miles eight

831
00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:10.119
hundred and one miles long.

832
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:12.239
That's funny. I thought it would be longer because when

833
00:43:12.280 --> 00:43:14.679
we drive way up north to like the top of

834
00:43:14.719 --> 00:43:17.519
northern Michigan, it takes what like twelve hours? Right?

835
00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:19.159
No, it takes seven hours.

836
00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:25.599
Oh. Anyway. When Matt got the new job in Dallas,

837
00:43:26.039 --> 00:43:29.199
he temporarily moved into Linda and Jim's spare room, so

838
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:32.239
Linda and Jim are Carrie's parents. While Carrie and the

839
00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:34.800
girls stayed in Dallas until the end of the school year,

840
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:38.400
money continued to be tight, especially because of all the moving.

841
00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:41.480
Carrie asked her mom if she would mind adding her

842
00:43:41.519 --> 00:43:45.000
and Matt's cell phones to their family plan. She said

843
00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:46.639
that they would still pay the phone bill, but it

844
00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:48.679
would save them money if they were on Linda and

845
00:43:48.760 --> 00:43:52.880
Jim's plan. Linda said yes, of course. Put a pin

846
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:56.079
in that comment because this will become important later, we'll do.

847
00:43:57.199 --> 00:44:00.079
Matt's new job was as chaplain at the wake Z

848
00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:03.800
Center for Youth or w c WHY. W c WHY

849
00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:08.079
is a long term psychiatric residential treatment facility for teens

850
00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:12.960
from ages thirteen to seventeen with emotional or behavioral problems.

851
00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:17.480
Teens were there either voluntarily or by court order, and

852
00:44:17.519 --> 00:44:21.440
stayed on an average of eighteen months. In his role there,

853
00:44:21.559 --> 00:44:25.400
Matt led Sunday services, Bible study classes, and did counseling.

854
00:44:26.320 --> 00:44:29.559
Once the school year ended in May two thousand and five, Carrie, Matt,

855
00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:32.719
and the girls moved into a house in hewittt, Texas,

856
00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:36.119
just outside of Waco. Carrie got a job teaching third

857
00:44:36.159 --> 00:44:39.440
grade at Spring Valley Elementary School, where Kensie and Grace

858
00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:43.119
would be starting that fall. It was ideal being just

859
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:46.960
half a mile from their house. Kensy and Grace both

860
00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:49.800
seemed to be doing well in their new school, Kensie

861
00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:53.159
in the fourth grade and Grace in kindergarten. Carrie fit

862
00:44:53.239 --> 00:44:55.400
in well at school and became close with some of

863
00:44:55.400 --> 00:44:58.519
the other teachers. They liked Carrie, but noticed that she

864
00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:01.639
rarely went out with the other teachers after school. When

865
00:45:01.639 --> 00:45:03.719
she did go out with them. They noticed that Matt

866
00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:08.280
would constantly call her for one reason or another. While

867
00:45:08.280 --> 00:45:11.280
Matt was working at w C, why he still had

868
00:45:11.280 --> 00:45:15.519
his eye out for another church pastor position. Coincidentally, the

869
00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:20.159
church that Carrie's parents attended, Crossroads Baptist Church, had their

870
00:45:20.199 --> 00:45:23.840
pastor leave. Carrie's dad, Jim, was deacon at the church

871
00:45:23.960 --> 00:45:26.639
and agreed to ask the other deacons to interview Matt

872
00:45:26.679 --> 00:45:29.880
as a favor to Carrie. He recused himself from the

873
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:33.280
process and told the other deacons that if they decided

874
00:45:33.320 --> 00:45:35.719
not to hire Matt, there would be no hard feelings.

875
00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:40.760
As it turns out, they liked they liked Matt, and

876
00:45:40.840 --> 00:45:43.760
he was hired at October two thousand and five. He

877
00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:46.760
kept his job at w CY, working there part time

878
00:45:46.840 --> 00:45:49.679
during the week and taking the duties of pastor at

879
00:45:49.679 --> 00:45:54.039
Crossroads on the weekends. I'm just surprised that anyone liked Matt,

880
00:45:54.199 --> 00:45:54.400
you know.

881
00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:56.239
I think he's one of those guys that probably when

882
00:45:56.280 --> 00:45:59.119
you first meet him, he gives off a positive impression.

883
00:45:59.559 --> 00:46:01.280
Then you get to know him and find out not

884
00:46:01.400 --> 00:46:01.800
so much.

885
00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:05.280
That fall, Crossroads welcomed a new member to the church,

886
00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:10.360
a twenty three year old woman named Vanessa Bowles. Vanessa's dad, Leary,

887
00:46:10.519 --> 00:46:13.599
was the music minister at Crossroads, and Vanessa had recently

888
00:46:13.639 --> 00:46:17.559
moved home while going through a divorce. Just a year earlier,

889
00:46:17.599 --> 00:46:20.559
in December two thousand and four, Vanessa had gotten married

890
00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:23.679
to a man twenty years her senior, gotten pregnant, and

891
00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:26.719
had a baby, Lily in August two thousand and five.

892
00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:30.559
A month later, her husband filed for divorce and claimed

893
00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:34.000
that Lily was not his child. It was later confirmed

894
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:37.400
through a fraternity test that indeed he was not Lily's father.

895
00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:40.880
The divorce was finalized in December two thousand and five.

896
00:46:41.519 --> 00:46:44.639
Vanessa came home with her daughter and started attending classes

897
00:46:44.679 --> 00:46:49.000
at Tarleton State University, working towards an education degree.

898
00:46:49.280 --> 00:46:52.360
She got married, had a baby like nine months later,

899
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:55.960
pretty much, and then her husband found out it wasn't his,

900
00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:58.880
So not the best situation.

901
00:47:00.519 --> 00:47:04.079
Carrie got to know Vanessa casually through church. Vanessa's daughter,

902
00:47:04.119 --> 00:47:07.559
Lily reminded Carrie a lot of Cassidy, now gone for

903
00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:10.920
almost seven years, Kensy and Grace would play with Lily

904
00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:14.800
at church. After Vanessa joined the church, Matt seemed to

905
00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:17.280
find more reasons to call over to the Bull's house.

906
00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:21.000
To talk with Larry about the music for upcoming services.

907
00:47:21.519 --> 00:47:24.000
More and more, though, he started calling to talk to

908
00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:28.559
Vanessa and counsel her. Augh, this guy is such a creep.

909
00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:31.000
He had been through a lot, he said, including the

910
00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:33.320
loss of a child, so he could certainly help her

911
00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:36.320
through that tough time that she was going through as

912
00:47:36.360 --> 00:47:40.519
a newly divorced single mother. How old is Matt right now?

913
00:47:41.039 --> 00:47:43.480
I believe he was thirty four at.

914
00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:46.000
This point, okay, and so Vanessa is twenty three?

915
00:47:46.119 --> 00:47:46.360
Yes?

916
00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:50.880
Maybe not so Coincidentally, Carrie and Matt started having more

917
00:47:50.960 --> 00:47:54.119
and more marital issues around this time. Part of it

918
00:47:54.159 --> 00:47:56.800
may have been that Carrie was feeling a lot of stress.

919
00:47:57.400 --> 00:48:01.079
The Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skill Test was coming up.

920
00:48:01.400 --> 00:48:04.039
This was a standardized test that every student had to

921
00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:08.480
take starting in third grade, and like many other standardized tests,

922
00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:11.480
there was a lot of pressure on both teachers and

923
00:48:11.679 --> 00:48:16.119
students to do well. Also, the anniversary of Cassidy's death

924
00:48:16.280 --> 00:48:19.239
was coming up, which was always a hard time for Carrie.

925
00:48:20.199 --> 00:48:23.519
In February, Matt emailed Carrie he knew she was feeling

926
00:48:23.559 --> 00:48:27.159
stressed and overwhelmed. He said, quote, are you feeling depressed?

927
00:48:27.280 --> 00:48:30.519
Are you feeling lost. Do you want to stop something?

928
00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:33.360
If so, what could you stop? I don't know how

929
00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:35.800
to help you any more than I already do. The

930
00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:38.159
last time you sounded like this was close to the

931
00:48:38.239 --> 00:48:41.840
anniversary of Cassidy's death. I'm just asking so that I

932
00:48:41.880 --> 00:48:47.239
can help. What can I do? Love you? Matt. Carrie responded, Well,

933
00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:49.719
this might sound crazy, but I think for the first time,

934
00:48:50.199 --> 00:48:53.480
I have realized that Cassidy is not coming back, So

935
00:48:53.599 --> 00:48:55.599
I guess I am feeling like I have lost her

936
00:48:55.639 --> 00:48:58.239
all over again. I just have a lot out on

937
00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:01.119
my plate and I feel like I I'm sinking. So

938
00:49:01.239 --> 00:49:05.000
am I depressed or lost? Yes, all of the above.

939
00:49:05.960 --> 00:49:08.159
I feel like I am getting sick, and I hate

940
00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:10.199
myself because I should be happy because I have you

941
00:49:10.239 --> 00:49:14.199
and the girls, but I just can't get going. Later

942
00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:17.000
in the email exchange, she said, quote, I will get

943
00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:20.079
through this on my own. You are wonderful. I couldn't

944
00:49:20.079 --> 00:49:22.679
ask for a better husband. I think she could, actually,

945
00:49:23.079 --> 00:49:25.400
But right now I am just sinking and I have

946
00:49:25.440 --> 00:49:28.000
to find out how to pull myself up. So I

947
00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:31.000
don't even know how I'm going to do it. But

948
00:49:31.079 --> 00:49:34.079
it wasn't just Cassidy and work stress that was affecting Carrie.

949
00:49:34.519 --> 00:49:37.320
She also seemed to have realized that Matt was increasingly

950
00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:42.199
distracted and behaving differently toward her. In another email exchange

951
00:49:42.280 --> 00:49:46.039
later in February, Carrie expressed her feelings quote, I just

952
00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:49.320
want my soulmate back with me forever, and hell guess

953
00:49:49.639 --> 00:49:52.840
I will do whatever it takes to make sure that happens.

954
00:49:53.800 --> 00:49:56.079
I just need you to know that, in all caps,

955
00:49:56.320 --> 00:49:58.280
I love you more than anything in the world, and

956
00:49:58.360 --> 00:50:00.880
my hang ups are something I need to work on.

957
00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:04.159
Let's just make it a real habit to try and

958
00:50:04.199 --> 00:50:06.880
spend a little time together every day and just talk

959
00:50:06.920 --> 00:50:09.800
about us and life and just holding each other. I

960
00:50:09.880 --> 00:50:11.840
love you, Matt, and I can't even think of what

961
00:50:11.880 --> 00:50:14.159
my life would be like if you weren't in it.

962
00:50:15.119 --> 00:50:17.920
A minute later, Matt responded, thank you. I needed to

963
00:50:17.960 --> 00:50:19.400
hear this. I love you.

964
00:50:21.039 --> 00:50:23.960
On March twenty first, the eve of the seventh anniversary

965
00:50:23.960 --> 00:50:27.119
of losing Cassidy, Carrie was feeling shaky, but she didn't

966
00:50:27.159 --> 00:50:30.639
know why. She emailed Matt saying quote, I haven't felt

967
00:50:30.639 --> 00:50:34.239
this bad in a long time unquote. Carrie had been dieting,

968
00:50:34.360 --> 00:50:36.639
trying hard to lose some weight, and Matt wondered if

969
00:50:36.639 --> 00:50:40.239
her blood sugar might be low. He replied, quote, do

970
00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:43.239
you want anything special tonight? How about a chocolate shake

971
00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:47.400
with even more chocolate syrup? Just joking, smiley face, love

972
00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:51.639
you unquote. Carrie responded, quote no, I will be okay.

973
00:50:51.679 --> 00:50:55.079
I just want to sleep tonight unquote. A friend of

974
00:50:55.119 --> 00:50:57.719
Carrie's noticed that she seemed off that day as well.

975
00:50:57.960 --> 00:51:01.760
She asked Carrie if she was okay. Carry replied, I'm okay.

976
00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:05.280
I do this every year. It's just hard. Carrie took

977
00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:07.199
the next day off work, and she and Matt went

978
00:51:07.239 --> 00:51:11.239
to visit Cassidy's grave. Later, Carrie called her mom, Linda,

979
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:13.679
and told her she had an epiphany regarding what she

980
00:51:13.760 --> 00:51:17.119
wanted to do with her future. She said, quote, I

981
00:51:17.159 --> 00:51:18.840
think I'm in a place where I need to reach

982
00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:21.599
out and help others who have lost a child. I'll

983
00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:24.159
always miss Cassidy, but now that I've found peace with

984
00:51:24.199 --> 00:51:25.920
her death, I'd like to find a way to help

985
00:51:25.960 --> 00:51:30.800
other parents unquote. Linda thought that was a beautiful idea.

986
00:51:31.239 --> 00:51:33.719
Another sign that something was off with Carrie and Matt's

987
00:51:33.719 --> 00:51:36.920
marriage was their sex life. While Matt had always been

988
00:51:36.960 --> 00:51:39.440
the one with a stronger sex drive, now the tables

989
00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:43.159
seem to have turned. Carrie confided in a friend quote,

990
00:51:43.480 --> 00:51:45.880
I actually want Matt sexually, but he told me that

991
00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:49.840
he doesn't need me like that anymore. Unquote. On Monday,

992
00:51:49.880 --> 00:51:52.559
March twenty seventh, Carrie and Matt made plans to leave

993
00:51:52.599 --> 00:51:55.719
the girls at their grandmas and rekindle their romance. They

994
00:51:55.760 --> 00:51:57.519
had an email exchange that day.

995
00:51:58.519 --> 00:52:00.039
So what are we going to do?

996
00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:01.559
Nothing? Sleep?

997
00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:04.000
I am sure that is what you want to do.

998
00:52:04.360 --> 00:52:06.440
I am not sure what has changed in you, but

999
00:52:06.559 --> 00:52:07.280
something has.

1000
00:52:07.639 --> 00:52:10.679
I was joking, Carrie, I am no different. I promise

1001
00:52:10.840 --> 00:52:13.199
we can go to the movies, out to eat or

1002
00:52:13.280 --> 00:52:15.559
rent a movie and order in whichever you want.

1003
00:52:16.119 --> 00:52:18.280
I tried the other night to make things special, and

1004
00:52:18.320 --> 00:52:20.639
now the ball is in your court. I hope you

1005
00:52:20.719 --> 00:52:21.840
don't miss the basket.

1006
00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:25.639
Very funny. You make me laugh. Ha ha. You did

1007
00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:30.199
make things special. I never missed the basket. Apparently things

1008
00:52:30.239 --> 00:52:32.760
didn't work out well, because the next day, Carrie sent

1009
00:52:32.840 --> 00:52:36.079
Matt a long email. Here's part of it. I know

1010
00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:37.960
you are not at work yet, but there is something

1011
00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:40.840
on my mind. Matt. I love you very much, and

1012
00:52:40.920 --> 00:52:43.599
I wasn't joking about what I said last night. I

1013
00:52:43.639 --> 00:52:45.960
do not doubt your love for me. I just think

1014
00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:48.320
that something has changed in you and I can't figure

1015
00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:50.880
out what it is. Until you open up and tell

1016
00:52:50.920 --> 00:52:53.239
me what is going on, we cannot go any further.

1017
00:52:53.960 --> 00:52:56.159
Never in our marriage have you ever told me no,

1018
00:52:56.440 --> 00:52:58.440
And I guess I feel like this is just one

1019
00:52:58.480 --> 00:53:01.280
way you are pulling away. I know you think I

1020
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:04.119
am seeing things, but what I feel is real. I

1021
00:53:04.159 --> 00:53:06.119
have decided that until you open up to me and

1022
00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:08.239
tell me what is going on and really spend the

1023
00:53:08.239 --> 00:53:10.800
time needed to make things better, I will not do

1024
00:53:11.039 --> 00:53:15.039
anything with you. Then again, maybe that is what you want.

1025
00:53:15.320 --> 00:53:17.480
This morning, I thought you would have liked what I did,

1026
00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:19.880
but I felt like you seemed put out. And I'm

1027
00:53:19.920 --> 00:53:22.400
tired of giving and giving and you not giving back.

1028
00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:25.400
So I guess what I am saying. If you want

1029
00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:27.639
our marriage to be better than it has ever been,

1030
00:53:28.199 --> 00:53:31.280
then some things have got to change. Please know I

1031
00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:33.239
am not in any way saying I do not love

1032
00:53:33.239 --> 00:53:35.360
you or do not want to be with you, but

1033
00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:37.880
the way I feel has got to stop, and that

1034
00:53:37.960 --> 00:53:39.679
means that you have got to tell me what is

1035
00:53:39.719 --> 00:53:42.360
going on in your mind. I love you very much

1036
00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:44.159
and I am sorry. If I have made you mad,

1037
00:53:44.719 --> 00:53:47.199
But like I said last night, I am sick of this.

1038
00:53:47.760 --> 00:53:51.639
You are breaking my heart. After Matt got to work

1039
00:53:51.679 --> 00:53:55.559
at WCY, he responded, quote, Carrie, I just want you

1040
00:53:55.599 --> 00:54:00.079
to know that I love you. Just wanted to say that. Unquote.

1041
00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:02.880
That day, though, things took a turn for the worse.

1042
00:54:02.960 --> 00:54:05.440
When Matt decided to open up to carry regarding his

1043
00:54:05.559 --> 00:54:10.519
feelings about Cassidy's death. He sent a long email. I

1044
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:12.320
know that you have told me a number of times

1045
00:54:12.360 --> 00:54:14.480
that you prayed the night that she died that you

1046
00:54:14.559 --> 00:54:17.320
wanted her to be pain free. I have never told

1047
00:54:17.360 --> 00:54:19.559
you before what I did in her room at midnight

1048
00:54:19.599 --> 00:54:22.199
when I went to check on her. I guess this

1049
00:54:22.360 --> 00:54:25.760
is part of the not sharing everything with you. I

1050
00:54:25.840 --> 00:54:27.719
went to her bed and placed my hand on her

1051
00:54:27.760 --> 00:54:30.960
back to make sure she was breathing. She was. She

1052
00:54:31.079 --> 00:54:33.800
looked up at me briefly and went back to snoring quickly.

1053
00:54:34.599 --> 00:54:36.440
I kept my hand on her back and I prayed

1054
00:54:36.480 --> 00:54:39.000
for her that night. I prayed that she would be

1055
00:54:39.039 --> 00:54:41.559
cancer free, and I prayed for her to start and

1056
00:54:41.639 --> 00:54:45.920
finish school, graduate college, get married, and bring her family

1057
00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:49.960
home for the holidays. I remembered praying the words, Please God,

1058
00:54:50.039 --> 00:54:52.760
make her well so we can have her here with us. Please,

1059
00:54:53.159 --> 00:54:55.760
I need her. I don't know why I never told

1060
00:54:55.800 --> 00:54:58.559
you this before. Maybe I didn't want to make you mad.

1061
00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:01.079
You and I have just discussed the fact that your

1062
00:55:01.159 --> 00:55:04.000
prayer was the one that was answered that night. I

1063
00:55:04.039 --> 00:55:07.079
don't know why mine wasn't I know deep down I

1064
00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:10.079
hold a grudge against God and you for him answering

1065
00:55:10.119 --> 00:55:14.559
your prayer and not mine. So basically, what he's saying

1066
00:55:14.679 --> 00:55:18.239
is that because Carrie prayed for Cassidy to be free

1067
00:55:18.239 --> 00:55:22.960
of pain, that her prayer was answered by her dying,

1068
00:55:23.119 --> 00:55:27.599
which is I can't even imagine how horrible to say

1069
00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:31.039
something like that. He went on in his email to

1070
00:55:31.039 --> 00:55:34.320
talk about the nature of his relationship with Carrie, saying, quote,

1071
00:55:34.760 --> 00:55:36.760
all I know is that I chased you for our

1072
00:55:36.920 --> 00:55:39.480
entire marriage. You often did make me feel like you

1073
00:55:39.519 --> 00:55:42.239
did not need nor desire me. I felt as though

1074
00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:44.880
I was like the sperm donor for your children, and

1075
00:55:44.960 --> 00:55:48.320
I was now the butler, cook, babysitter, etc. Although I

1076
00:55:48.360 --> 00:55:52.000
know I am not good at keeping the house clean. Unquote.

1077
00:55:52.119 --> 00:55:54.840
As you can imagine, Carrie was shattered by what she read.

1078
00:55:55.400 --> 00:55:59.559
She responded, Wow, so you finally said it, you blame

1079
00:55:59.639 --> 00:56:02.360
me for Cassidy's death. I had to read it a

1080
00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:04.840
few times to make sure I understood what you had said.

1081
00:56:05.599 --> 00:56:07.320
I feel like you just took a knife and put

1082
00:56:07.360 --> 00:56:09.880
it through my heart. I have never ever told you

1083
00:56:09.920 --> 00:56:13.159
that it was your fault that she wasn't alive. Ever, Yes,

1084
00:56:13.239 --> 00:56:15.280
I carry that guilt of my prayer, but I know

1085
00:56:15.400 --> 00:56:17.320
in my heart that God knew what he was doing

1086
00:56:17.360 --> 00:56:20.599
before I ever prayed that prayer. Yes, we will never

1087
00:56:20.679 --> 00:56:23.079
be the same after Cassidy's death, but one thing I

1088
00:56:23.079 --> 00:56:25.440
have learned is you can either let it change you

1089
00:56:25.480 --> 00:56:27.480
for the good or the bad, and that is up

1090
00:56:27.480 --> 00:56:30.239
to you. Sorry, you have felt like you have chased

1091
00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:32.639
me our whole marriage. Sorry you feel that all you

1092
00:56:32.679 --> 00:56:34.760
do is cook, clean and take care of the girls.

1093
00:56:35.239 --> 00:56:38.119
You have truly painted an ugly picture of me. At

1094
00:56:38.199 --> 00:56:40.239
least now I know how you feel about us and

1095
00:56:40.320 --> 00:56:43.000
about me. I am not sure what to do from here.

1096
00:56:43.519 --> 00:56:45.239
I have some things that I need to work out

1097
00:56:45.280 --> 00:56:48.039
because you said some things that really hurt. I am

1098
00:56:48.039 --> 00:56:50.280
not mad at you, but I am hurt. I know

1099
00:56:50.360 --> 00:56:52.960
that marriage isn't easy, even harder with the loss of

1100
00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:56.079
a child, but I am not sure how a marriage

1101
00:56:56.119 --> 00:56:58.519
can last when one person blames the other for the

1102
00:56:58.559 --> 00:57:01.599
death of that child. I am in disbelief about what

1103
00:57:01.639 --> 00:57:05.440
you said, shocked. Thank you for being honest with me. Finally,

1104
00:57:05.639 --> 00:57:08.119
I wish it didn't take so long, but I understand

1105
00:57:08.119 --> 00:57:10.800
why you did, because those words must have been very

1106
00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:13.559
hard to say to write. I am just not sure

1107
00:57:13.559 --> 00:57:17.119
what to do now. That afternoon, Carrie called her mom.

1108
00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:19.559
She told her that she was going to divorce Matt,

1109
00:57:19.599 --> 00:57:22.639
and she didn't think they could get past this. Linda,

1110
00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:25.360
who by this time had completed her masters and her

1111
00:57:25.360 --> 00:57:29.440
PhD in communications and was a professor, knew that the

1112
00:57:29.519 --> 00:57:31.440
right thing to do was to listen and to not

1113
00:57:31.480 --> 00:57:34.559
give advice. But she was also a mother and the

1114
00:57:34.599 --> 00:57:37.400
mother and her told Carry that divorce wasn't the answer.

1115
00:57:37.519 --> 00:57:41.840
She said they needed counseling together. Later, Linda would regret

1116
00:57:41.920 --> 00:57:44.159
not telling Carrie to get as far away from Matt

1117
00:57:44.199 --> 00:57:47.840
as fast as possible. I think that is where we

1118
00:57:47.880 --> 00:57:50.599
are going to end Part one. This is such a

1119
00:57:50.639 --> 00:57:51.960
sad story, as you can.

1120
00:57:52.119 --> 00:57:55.719
It's sad, but it's also infuriating to you that this

1121
00:57:55.760 --> 00:57:56.880
guy is such a pig.

1122
00:57:57.119 --> 00:57:59.360
Yeah, he's a horrible, horrible person and.

1123
00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:02.559
He seems like a lovely person, as you know, so

1124
00:58:02.639 --> 00:58:06.039
many of the women in our cases do who tolerated

1125
00:58:06.079 --> 00:58:09.000
a lot and who only wanted to make the world

1126
00:58:09.079 --> 00:58:09.920
a better place, and.

1127
00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:12.000
She wanted to make her marriage work like she you know,

1128
00:58:12.079 --> 00:58:14.159
she really wanted to do anything she could to make

1129
00:58:14.199 --> 00:58:17.239
the marriage work. Yeah, it's just really tragic.

1130
00:58:18.639 --> 00:58:22.760
So from an early age, Matt was abusing women. Yes,

1131
00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:28.639
And what can we do to help men and you

1132
00:58:28.679 --> 00:58:33.159
know women sometimes who are abusers when they're young, Like,

1133
00:58:33.239 --> 00:58:38.719
what steps can be taken to you know, help stop

1134
00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:40.960
domestic violence. I think that is one of the questions

1135
00:58:40.960 --> 00:58:43.800
we need to talk about as much as possible. Yeah,

1136
00:58:44.559 --> 00:58:47.559
I'm not an expert. I think one thing that maybe

1137
00:58:47.559 --> 00:58:50.760
we could do better is teach our girls from a

1138
00:58:50.840 --> 00:58:53.239
very young age that no one has permission to touch

1139
00:58:53.239 --> 00:58:57.679
you without your consent, that you are strong. That I

1140
00:58:57.679 --> 00:59:00.559
think we've romanticized relationships a little little bit, like it's

1141
00:59:00.559 --> 00:59:02.719
a romantic when a boy, you know, wants to kiss you,

1142
00:59:03.719 --> 00:59:06.519
but like it's yeah, you know, women have as much

1143
00:59:06.519 --> 00:59:09.480
should have as much power in their relationship as not

1144
00:59:09.519 --> 00:59:12.000
just women but girls. Yeah, you know, a relationship should

1145
00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:14.920
be fifty to fifty and a man should not have

1146
00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:16.679
power over you, right, it makes.

1147
00:59:16.480 --> 00:59:20.199
Sense, it does, and you mentioned it earlier. But hopefully,

1148
00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:23.039
you know, with the Me Too movement, hopefully that has

1149
00:59:23.079 --> 00:59:27.039
helped a little bit in helping girls understand that they.

1150
00:59:27.239 --> 00:59:28.760
Have ownership over their own bodies.

1151
00:59:28.840 --> 00:59:31.280
Yeah, and that they can say no, and that it's

1152
00:59:31.320 --> 00:59:34.679
wrong for a boy to go further than they want.

1153
00:59:35.480 --> 00:59:37.440
I think the Me Too movement has helped to a

1154
00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:40.440
certain extent, but we still have so so long ago.

1155
00:59:40.840 --> 00:59:46.840
Women still don't believe women, and society doesn't always believe victims.

1156
00:59:47.119 --> 00:59:49.199
Yeah, I think that's absolutely true.

1157
00:59:49.039 --> 00:59:51.159
And I think that's why we want to keep talking

1158
00:59:51.159 --> 00:59:54.320
about these cases. And sometimes, like on social media, I

1159
00:59:54.320 --> 00:59:57.840
think is I will I try to point out, you know,

1160
00:59:58.440 --> 01:00:01.519
instances of you know, men and in society that are

1161
01:00:01.960 --> 01:00:05.280
sometimes celebrities like that do bad things, like Jonah Hill

1162
01:00:05.519 --> 01:00:09.119
last summer was like telling his girlfriend she couldn't wear

1163
01:00:09.159 --> 01:00:11.400
certain things. And I think that's one place where we

1164
01:00:11.400 --> 01:00:15.559
can start, is just pointing out these gross behaviors men

1165
01:00:15.639 --> 01:00:17.719
trying to dominate women. And I know what happens on

1166
01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:19.320
the other side too, but it's you.

1167
01:00:19.280 --> 01:00:22.239
Know, oh yeah, far more common the other way. But yeah,

1168
01:00:22.239 --> 01:00:24.199
I was actually gonna say, I think part of the thing,

1169
01:00:24.320 --> 01:00:29.480
like solving the problem for young men and boys. It's

1170
01:00:30.280 --> 01:00:31.960
it's hard, but I think a lot of it starts

1171
01:00:31.960 --> 01:00:35.519
with what is culturally accepted and what's not. So I

1172
01:00:35.519 --> 01:00:39.400
think pointing out things like that with celebrities or you know,

1173
01:00:39.400 --> 01:00:42.719
people who are well known that do that do bad things,

1174
01:00:42.760 --> 01:00:43.559
it's really important.

1175
01:00:43.719 --> 01:00:50.199
When Elon Musk offered to impregnate Taylor, Taylor sweat, like,

1176
01:00:50.280 --> 01:00:53.280
that's just gross. Gross, That's not how you talk to

1177
01:00:53.639 --> 01:00:57.440
each other, right, you have to respect each other. Do

1178
01:00:57.440 --> 01:00:59.400
you think it was weird they kept sending these like

1179
01:00:59.559 --> 01:01:03.840
laws emails to each other and not having discussions.

1180
01:01:03.800 --> 01:01:05.639
A little bit. I sort of got the impression that

1181
01:01:05.679 --> 01:01:07.639
they use email like a lot like we or a

1182
01:01:07.679 --> 01:01:09.719
lot of couples use texts, right, But yeah, they did

1183
01:01:09.719 --> 01:01:11.559
have right, there were really.

1184
01:01:11.480 --> 01:01:13.079
Long conversations they were.

1185
01:01:13.239 --> 01:01:15.480
Yeah, but I think in you know, when you're having

1186
01:01:15.559 --> 01:01:19.280
like marital difficulties like that, and sometimes it helps to

1187
01:01:19.320 --> 01:01:21.840
get your thoughts down rather than just trying to have

1188
01:01:21.880 --> 01:01:24.599
a conversation, which can a lot of times devolve into

1189
01:01:25.280 --> 01:01:28.239
you know, arguing and not being as productive.

1190
01:01:29.119 --> 01:01:32.400
I have to say, these cases and these these horrible

1191
01:01:32.639 --> 01:01:36.519
men just make me appreciate you more because you are again,

1192
01:01:36.599 --> 01:01:38.320
don't get a big hat. I say this all the time,

1193
01:01:38.360 --> 01:01:40.400
but you are a really good partner and I'm lucky

1194
01:01:40.400 --> 01:01:40.800
to have you.

1195
01:01:41.000 --> 01:01:42.920
Oh, I thank you, and I am very lucky to

1196
01:01:42.920 --> 01:01:52.039
have you as well. If you're a regular listener of

1197
01:01:52.119 --> 01:01:53.440
Love Mary Kill, are.

1198
01:01:53.320 --> 01:01:57.800
You, you know that every True Story, I've never listened

1199
01:01:57.840 --> 01:01:58.480
to that episode.

1200
01:01:58.519 --> 01:02:03.199
You have never listened to that episode. I know that's crazy. Well,

1201
01:02:03.239 --> 01:02:06.159
if you do listen, you know that every month we

1202
01:02:06.320 --> 01:02:09.239
donate at least twenty five percent of the revenues we

1203
01:02:09.320 --> 01:02:14.000
earn from advertising and from our patron program to a

1204
01:02:14.039 --> 01:02:16.400
different charity every month. And we're really proud to be

1205
01:02:16.440 --> 01:02:19.719
able to do that, and we really want to thank you,

1206
01:02:20.039 --> 01:02:23.239
our listeners, because it's really so grateful. You're the ones

1207
01:02:23.239 --> 01:02:26.119
who give us the ability to do that. So for

1208
01:02:26.320 --> 01:02:29.440
the month of August, we gave to an organization called

1209
01:02:29.519 --> 01:02:33.760
donors Choose dot org, which is a nonprofit organization which

1210
01:02:33.800 --> 01:02:36.920
supports classroom projects for public schools in the US.

1211
01:02:37.480 --> 01:02:39.280
It's a really cool cheer.

1212
01:02:39.440 --> 01:02:44.039
I love it. Yeah, teachers. They post requests for classroom materials, trips,

1213
01:02:44.199 --> 01:02:47.119
and school visitors to the Donors Choose website.

1214
01:02:47.280 --> 01:02:50.039
So many teachers take money out of their own pocket. Yeah,

1215
01:02:50.079 --> 01:02:51.800
so much money out of their own pockets, and this

1216
01:02:51.920 --> 01:02:53.920
kind of helps out with that a little bit.

1217
01:02:54.199 --> 01:02:56.639
Yeah, yeah, you had written on our social media. I

1218
01:02:56.679 --> 01:02:58.400
think you probably got it from their website, but that

1219
01:02:58.920 --> 01:03:01.880
ninety percent of teachers spend an average of eight hundred

1220
01:03:01.880 --> 01:03:05.079
dollars a year of their own money providing essentials for

1221
01:03:05.119 --> 01:03:08.039
their classrooms. So it's a great cause. So we were

1222
01:03:08.039 --> 01:03:10.440
able to donate three hundred and twenty one dollars to

1223
01:03:10.639 --> 01:03:11.320
two schools.

1224
01:03:11.679 --> 01:03:15.480
No much but podcasters. Our podcast is doing really well.

1225
01:03:15.519 --> 01:03:18.800
But podcasters don't make a ton of money unless you're

1226
01:03:18.840 --> 01:03:22.039
seeking outside advertisements, which someday we'll do, but we haven't

1227
01:03:22.079 --> 01:03:22.559
done it yet.

1228
01:03:22.639 --> 01:03:26.320
Yep. So for more information or to support this organization,

1229
01:03:26.440 --> 01:03:29.000
go to donors choose dot org.

1230
01:03:29.119 --> 01:03:31.199
It was so nice that I'm going to get emotional.

1231
01:03:32.360 --> 01:03:34.960
We received thank you letters from the teachers and that

1232
01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:35.719
was so nice.

1233
01:03:35.800 --> 01:03:36.880
I didn't share that with me.

1234
01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:40.239
Oh well, I would like to hear it.

1235
01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:42.199
I will later, Okay, I'll look forward to that.

1236
01:03:42.280 --> 01:03:44.519
But we were able to, like there was the teachers

1237
01:03:44.559 --> 01:03:47.639
have grants kind of like wishes, and I think we

1238
01:03:47.639 --> 01:03:51.039
were able to fulfill three different teachers grants with that money. Cool,

1239
01:03:51.199 --> 01:03:53.480
So yeah, I encourage you to check it out. It'll

1240
01:03:53.480 --> 01:03:54.880
make you feel really warm and fuzzy.

1241
01:03:54.960 --> 01:03:57.440
Yeah, and thank you all again. So we are.

1242
01:03:57.400 --> 01:03:59.960
Working on getting merged. A lot of people have asked

1243
01:04:00.679 --> 01:04:03.159
for sweatshirts and coffee mugs and things like that, and

1244
01:04:03.199 --> 01:04:05.800
we actually just Christmas is coming up so well, and

1245
01:04:05.840 --> 01:04:08.119
you should treat yourself at Christmas because no offense. You

1246
01:04:08.199 --> 01:04:12.119
know your husband's not going to do it. A little

1247
01:04:12.239 --> 01:04:14.639
present company and.

1248
01:04:14.760 --> 01:04:16.400
I am not the best Christmas gifts.

1249
01:04:17.119 --> 01:04:25.199
You're very thoughtful. But anyway, moving on merchandise, we had

1250
01:04:25.199 --> 01:04:27.239
a meeting today with someone and we're going to work

1251
01:04:27.280 --> 01:04:33.039
on getting some designs and we are curious if any

1252
01:04:33.079 --> 01:04:34.519
of you out there, if you could let us know

1253
01:04:34.559 --> 01:04:37.039
what you want. People have said like T shirts and sweatshirts.

1254
01:04:37.559 --> 01:04:40.760
Let us know even like because we really struggle with

1255
01:04:40.840 --> 01:04:43.000
like what kind of designs to do, and we're going

1256
01:04:43.079 --> 01:04:45.079
to work with a designer and come up with some ideas.

1257
01:04:45.119 --> 01:04:47.760
But if any of you have thoughts on like what,

1258
01:04:47.920 --> 01:04:49.760
I don't know what type of thing you would want

1259
01:04:49.800 --> 01:04:52.639
to wear, that would be awesome.

1260
01:04:55.440 --> 01:04:57.519
Well, last year we had we had merch and you

1261
01:04:57.559 --> 01:05:00.159
and I really liked it. It was just our logo. Sure,

1262
01:05:00.199 --> 01:05:01.760
we're thinking about making some like.

1263
01:05:01.800 --> 01:05:04.519
Something, a slogan on there something.

1264
01:05:04.880 --> 01:05:08.480
We'll probably do a logo shirt. But yeah, anyway, we're

1265
01:05:08.920 --> 01:05:12.039
talking probably too long about this, but yeah, let us

1266
01:05:12.079 --> 01:05:13.480
know what you would like to see. And we're trying

1267
01:05:13.519 --> 01:05:15.880
to make the design maybe a little cuter because our

1268
01:05:15.960 --> 01:05:19.840
regular logo is a little dark, dark and aggressive looking.

1269
01:05:19.960 --> 01:05:20.639
Yeah kind of.

1270
01:05:21.079 --> 01:05:24.119
So it works great for like Spotify, but maybe not

1271
01:05:24.159 --> 01:05:27.320
as great our T shirt that you might want. Yes, exactly,

1272
01:05:28.519 --> 01:05:30.360
so we will. We will let you know when that

1273
01:05:30.760 --> 01:05:34.760
happens and when the shop is live. But yeah, something

1274
01:05:34.760 --> 01:05:38.119
to look forward to before we go. Do you want

1275
01:05:38.119 --> 01:05:40.239
to talk about Chimp Crazy?

1276
01:05:40.440 --> 01:05:44.480
Oh? Yeah, what a ride.

1277
01:05:45.719 --> 01:05:49.039
Other than Tiger King, which it is made by the

1278
01:05:49.079 --> 01:05:51.559
producers of Tiger King. It's the craziest thing I've ever seen.

1279
01:05:51.719 --> 01:05:53.800
It really is. So this is a show on Netflix.

1280
01:05:53.800 --> 01:05:57.239
I think it's a four part documentary. We have watched

1281
01:05:57.239 --> 01:05:59.480
the last one, last one yet, but it is. Yeah,

1282
01:05:59.519 --> 01:06:00.679
it is just crazy.

1283
01:06:01.840 --> 01:06:04.239
I guess. We don't want to give anything away.

1284
01:06:04.159 --> 01:06:06.719
About people who are crazy about gymps.

1285
01:06:07.000 --> 01:06:11.559
One person in particular who I'm always really sensitive. I

1286
01:06:11.599 --> 01:06:14.760
know that she's not a wonderful person, but I feel

1287
01:06:14.840 --> 01:06:16.760
as if she's exploited a little bit. I think I've

1288
01:06:16.760 --> 01:06:22.599
become more And I started watching the Mormon show about

1289
01:06:22.599 --> 01:06:25.880
the Mormon Wives Secret Lives, Yes, and I felt like,

1290
01:06:26.000 --> 01:06:27.760
did you watch it? No, I haven't watched it now, kids,

1291
01:06:27.760 --> 01:06:29.119
and I watched it while you were out of town

1292
01:06:29.280 --> 01:06:31.199
on one episode and I felt like that was really

1293
01:06:31.280 --> 01:06:35.079
exploitative and just these people are young and they're naive,

1294
01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:38.280
and they're just kind of being taken advantage of. And I, yeah,

1295
01:06:38.519 --> 01:06:41.519
I'm too sensitive, but I always feel a little icky sometimes.

1296
01:06:41.599 --> 01:06:43.159
Yeah, I think that. I think that's fair. And I

1297
01:06:43.159 --> 01:06:47.159
think the woman taught her name's Tanya. She definitely is.

1298
01:06:48.480 --> 01:06:50.280
I don't want to give any spoilers, but she she

1299
01:06:50.320 --> 01:06:52.559
does things that are not good, but she's also I

1300
01:06:52.599 --> 01:06:55.280
find her kind of a sympathetic character as well, because

1301
01:06:55.280 --> 01:06:57.480
I think you're a sympathetic person, not a character, because

1302
01:06:57.480 --> 01:06:58.519
she's I don't know.

1303
01:06:58.440 --> 01:07:01.000
The way I don't again, don't want to give any

1304
01:07:01.079 --> 01:07:03.519
but the way she feeds the chimps really makes me.

1305
01:07:04.079 --> 01:07:04.960
She does a lot of things.

1306
01:07:05.239 --> 01:07:07.719
You have a responsibility if you take a bet to

1307
01:07:07.840 --> 01:07:10.599
their health, and she definitely doesn't take their health seriously.

1308
01:07:10.599 --> 01:07:13.480
But I do think she loves the chimps. I think

1309
01:07:13.519 --> 01:07:16.559
she does. She thinks she's doing right by them.

1310
01:07:16.519 --> 01:07:18.840
Well a lot of times though. Okay, this is a

1311
01:07:18.840 --> 01:07:22.599
toxic relationship though, because she loves them, because they love

1312
01:07:22.639 --> 01:07:25.519
her back. Yeah, yeah, they give unconditional love.

1313
01:07:25.800 --> 01:07:29.119
Yes. But if you haven't already watched it, definitely worth

1314
01:07:29.159 --> 01:07:33.400
checking out. It's on Netflix, it's.

1315
01:07:32.400 --> 01:07:36.039
Not, well it's not. It's on HBO, which I refused

1316
01:07:36.079 --> 01:07:37.320
to call it its new name.

1317
01:07:37.920 --> 01:07:40.800
Max, which is why did they change it?

1318
01:07:41.000 --> 01:07:42.280
So yeah, that's where it's at.

1319
01:07:42.599 --> 01:07:44.519
And I apologize for my mistake.

1320
01:07:44.519 --> 01:07:49.559
You know, if you need our password. There's another funny story.

1321
01:07:49.840 --> 01:07:52.000
What account is it? One of her accounts we have?

1322
01:07:52.119 --> 01:07:58.159
So somebody it's down there and I'm like, I feel

1323
01:07:58.159 --> 01:07:59.880
like they're a family member. I can't take them.

1324
01:08:00.719 --> 01:08:06.119
It's fun everyone, so we check in see what. Yes,

1325
01:08:06.199 --> 01:08:08.400
I hope, I hope the Hulu people aren't listening all.

1326
01:08:08.400 --> 01:08:09.920
Right, So you think this is gonna We're gonna have

1327
01:08:09.960 --> 01:08:10.679
two more parts.

1328
01:08:10.840 --> 01:08:12.639
Yes, this is going to be a three parter. There's

1329
01:08:12.639 --> 01:08:13.800
a lot to talk about. Boy.

1330
01:08:14.599 --> 01:08:16.640
Well, if you want to listen to parts two and three,

1331
01:08:17.520 --> 01:08:19.199
join us on Patreon.

1332
01:08:19.079 --> 01:08:21.239
Patreon dot com, slash Love Mary Kill.

1333
01:08:21.199 --> 01:08:22.399
Five dollars a month.

1334
01:08:22.680 --> 01:08:26.840
Early ad free access and a monthly EPI ybe Cook.

1335
01:08:27.720 --> 01:08:31.439
If you've watched Chim Crazy, Chim Crazy, send us a

1336
01:08:31.520 --> 01:08:33.159
d M and let us know what you think.

1337
01:08:33.640 --> 01:08:35.159
And the way that you can d m us is

1338
01:08:35.159 --> 01:08:38.720
by following us on Instagram or Facebook mm.

1339
01:08:38.680 --> 01:08:42.039
Hmm, or send us an email at Lovemrykill at gmail

1340
01:08:42.119 --> 01:08:43.199
dot com.

1341
01:08:43.239 --> 01:08:45.479
And until next time, don't kill your husband and don't

1342
01:08:45.520 --> 01:08:46.039
kill your wife.

1343
01:09:31.680 --> 01:09:35.159
Coincidentally, the same month, Laura Wilson, who worked with Matt

1344
01:09:35.159 --> 01:09:38.520
in the athletic training department about five years earlier and

1345
01:09:38.560 --> 01:09:43.079
had reported as his owner in the locker room, we're

1346
01:09:43.119 --> 01:09:44.079
still having nightmares.

1347
01:09:44.199 --> 01:09:46.880
Everything we can find that of my run on sentence.

1348
01:09:48.760 --> 01:09:50.800
This is not funny at all, but god, this is

1349
01:09:50.800 --> 01:09:52.720
the longest it's known to man.

1350
01:09:53.199 --> 01:09:55.920
Sorry, I'm not I'm not the writer that you are.

1351
01:09:55.920 --> 01:09:57.560
Two hundred and fifty long