Sept. 30, 2024

Kari and Matt Baker - Part 3 of 3

Kari and Matt Baker - Part 3 of 3
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Matt and Kari Baker seemed like the perfect couple with the perfect family. Living near Waco, Texas, Matt was a Baptist minister and Kari was a third grade teacher. They were raising two beautiful daughters, Kensi and Grace. But Kari’s family and friends knew that she had struggled. Seven years earlier, she and Matt had lost another daughter, Kassidy, soon after her first birthday. When Kari died in April 2006, her death was quickly ruled a suicide. But, Kari’s family and friends had a hard time accepting that conclusion. They saw someone who was a fighter and would do anything to be there for her daughters. They were determined to find out the truth, no matter how long it would take or how difficult it would be.

Today's snack: Hostess Meltamors

Support us on Patreon: https://patreon.com/lovemarrykill

WEBVTT

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I am Rich and I'm Tina.

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And if there's one thing we've learned in over twenty

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years of marriage.

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Some days you'll feel like killing your husband.

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And some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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Welcome to love, Mary Kill.

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Hi, Tina, Hey Rich, welcome back.

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Thanks, happy to be here. I know you have no

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place I'd rather be in, say, afternoon.

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Better way to spend a Saturday afternoon when Michigan is

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in the middle of a football game and sitting here

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in the podcast studio.

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We were just in the kitchen having a little snack

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between between two and three stacks between stacks, and you

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said one of the most shocking things you've ever said

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to me in over twenty years.

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Yes, I did.

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You said I might not watch the Michigan I'm still

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reeling from that.

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I know it is a little bit crazy, but there's

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just there's a lot going on, and it's it's probably

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a game they're gonna win, like by fifty points or something.

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And I guess that was different. But I probably will

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watch the game.

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I know you're going to watch the game.

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I'm sure that.

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I just say, that's the biggest lie you ever told me.

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Well, here's here's part of the problem is that I'm

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more invested in the Lions right now than I am

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in Michigan football. And the Tigers actually have like a

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slim chance of making the playoffs, and so I'm kind

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of invested in the Tigers again too.

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I only have so much you just keep let's break

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it all down for us, Rich tell us more.

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I don't want to go into more detail, but I

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only have so much room in my brain, and so

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Michigan is right now, they're kind of number three.

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I'm definitely like a football sports widow. Yeah, a lot

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of times on Saturday night or I'm just like, I'm

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just gonna just go do my own thing. Yeah, thank

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goodness for Bravo there for me in my time of need.

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But hey, did you bring me a snack?

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I brought you a snack. We haven't had enough snacks.

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I figured I figured for the third course, I would

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go for a dessert course. And I've really been just

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craving some Hostess treats lately. I was like, you know,

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I'm going to just get something Hostess related, and.

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Thank god Hostess is still around for us. Right a

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few years ago, marketing, well did they I don't know.

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Or was that all marketing?

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So they had I saw something new, or at least

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new to me. I haven't seen it in the hostessisle before.

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And it is called meltamores. They are like a hostess.

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I saw those with the store and I was like, it.

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Has chocolate, creamy caramel in the middle, and you can

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actually microwave it. Briefly, it was, yeah, I think we

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have to try that.

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Probably want to know how? I okay, you didn't.

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I didn't microwave it yet, but it only takes five seconds.

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So five seconds. Yeah, can you set your micro for

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five seconds? No, No, we probably can't.

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Yeah, should we give them a try?

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Absolutely?

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All right, we'll be right back. What did you think

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about the hostess meltimores?

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Well, I think it's worth a five seconds to put

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it in your microwave.

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It's worth the weight we tried on each way, and yeah,

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putting it in the microwave, it's a it's like a

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little lava cake.

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They're small size. If if you ever had a two

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bite brownie before, it's about the size of that.

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Yeah, I would recommend eating at least three or four

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out of citty.

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I would not, but just a difference of opinion.

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I'm going to give them a I'm going to give

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them a eight out of ten.

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I'm going to give it a six and a half,

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six and a half. I'm not I don't love a

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process they're definitely Yeah, it has that kind of you

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know that. Yeah.

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I glanced at the ingredients list on the back and

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it's a long list, which tells you that, yeah, they're

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pretty processed.

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So it's like a very bad grade for nutrition, but

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a good grade for I mean, it's a good little snack.

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I just prefer usually a homemade treat. But yeah, it

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was it was not bad. You really did a good job.

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It's hard to get like three snacks for three different episodes,

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So bravo to you.

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Oh, thank you, thank you.

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Do you think anyone would listen to a podcast of

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just us eating snacks?

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No, probably not, and I think I would probably not.

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Probably think because we don't post pictures of ourselves, people

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must think they got to be five hundred pounds each.

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Well, we should get back to our case because there's

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still a lot to talk about in part three. Do

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you want to give us just a real quick recap

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of the first two parts?

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I sure don't, but I will because you wrote up

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a nice little synopsis for us. So, Matt and Carrie Baker,

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how long have they been married? Like ten years?

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Yeah? I think just over ten years, twelve years.

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We've established that Matt is a horrible.

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One of the most horrible people we've ever talked about.

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I think he sexually assaulted many girls, young girls and well,

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I don't know sure, like young girls, but like teenagers. Yeah,

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definitely underage and many women. Carrie sadly died in April

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two thousand and six under suspicious circumstances. Her death was quickly,

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like super quickly, ruled a suicide by the Justice of

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the Peace, who didn't even come to the scene of

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the crime.

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I just did it over the phone.

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Carrie's aunts and her cousins suspected Matt had something to

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do with it. And remember that Carrie's therapist that she

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was talking to, she had told the therapist, I think

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Matt's going to kill me. Took them a little work

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to convince Carrie's mob Linda, that Matt may have murdered her.

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But she did come around, and she came full circle,

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and she was They were all on the case, the women,

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along with Carrie's Dad Jim put pressure on police, but

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in their mind the case was closed. When we left

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off at the end of part two, the family was

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growing increasingly frustrated with the lack of action by police.

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They wanted to exhume Carrie's body, and they were getting resistance.

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Before we get into part three, I do want to

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give a content warning that we will talk about sexual

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assault in this episode and it may be disturbing for

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some listeners, so please listen with care. All of the

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Duelin's pushing and prodding did have some impact on the police.

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Days after their meeting at the Hewitt PD Sergeant Cooper

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called Matt and asked him to sit down and talk

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with him. Matt recounted basically the same story he had

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told on the night of Carrie's death, but he added

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a few more details. He said he'd left the house

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around eleven to ten pm. First, he went to a

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convenience store slash gas station near his house, but found

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that it was closed, so he went to a second

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gas station. At this station, he couldn't pay at the pump,

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so he went inside and was told that the gas

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station only had diesel, So he stopped a third time

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at an Exxon station and filled up before going to

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Hollywood Video, where he bought a diet pepsi, some peanut Eminem's,

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and rented the movie. He estimated he was there for

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ten minutes, leaving at eleven fifty to head back home.

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He told Sergeant Cooper that Carrie had urinated on the

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bed and vomited as he moved her to the floor.

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He also repeated that foam was coming out of her

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nose and fluid poured from her mouth as he attempted CPR.

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Cooper didn't follow up on any of this, despite the

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fact that no one at the scene had made note

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of any fluids on the bed or the floor, perhaps

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knowing that a unism overdose couldn't kill someone quickly. Matt

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made a special point to tell Cooper that he didn't

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think it was the medication that killed Carrie. He thought

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she probably threw up in her mouth and choked on

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the vomit. When Cooper asked him about the pills in

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his briefcase, he told a different story than he had

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told to others. He said that he had never seen

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the pills before, and he thought that Carrie must have

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put them there. Cooper also asked him about his relationship

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with Vanessa Bulls. Matt claimed they were just good friends.

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He said Carrie and Vanessa had been friends before Carrie's death,

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and that he had grown close to Vanessa since Carrie died,

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but they were just friends. What Matt didn't tell them

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was that around that same time, he had paid a

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visit to Vanessa's dad, Larry, and asked his permission to

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officially date his daughter. Larry replied that it was Vanessa's decision,

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not his. Sergeant Cooper asked Matt if he would be

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willing to take a polygraph, and he said, of course,

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he would, absolutely, But when Cooper later followed up to

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try and arrange the polygraph, it was a criminal defense

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attorney who responded on Matt's behalf. What do you think?

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He said?

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Uh, he said, my client will not be taking a

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polygraph exam correct.

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Jim Linda and her sisters and niece had exhausted every

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avenue they could think of in trying to get justice

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for Carrie. They started calling anyone they could think of

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looking for ideas. A friend of Carrie's from high school

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said that she knew an attorney in Waco who was

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a former federal prosecutor and maybe he could help. On

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June ninth, Linda and Nancy met with the attorney Bill Johnston.

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She told him the whole story, saying, quote, I don't

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want you to assume my son in law did anything wrong.

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I just want the truth. I need to know what

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happened to my daughter end quote. She felt an overwhelming

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sense of relief and gratitude when Johnston agreed to help, saying,

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we can do that. Finally they had someone on their team.

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Johnston had invited two friends of his to the meeting,

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former police detectives and current private investigators, John Bennett and

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Mike McNamara. Johnston said, who you really need right now

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are these two guys. Let's put them on the case

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to learn everything they can. Maybe what they uncover will

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help convince the police to reopen the case. Linda and

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Jim agreed, and Bennett and McNamara went to work. Around

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this same time, all the rumors spreading around town were

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affecting Matt's reputation at the Crossroads Baptist Church, where he

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was the pastor, being seen publicly with Vanessa. So soon

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after Carrie's death, Matt canceling Sunday evening services several times

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to spend time with Vanessa, and the question of whether

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Carrie had actually died by suicide were all swirling around.

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The church deacons met and decided that it was time

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to part ways with Matt Baker. They gave him a

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sixteen hundred dollars severance check and sent him on his way,

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good for them. Following the meeting with Linda and Nancy,

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John Bennett and Mike McNamara started digging in. They wanted

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to develop a picture of Carrie and her mental state

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in the days and weeks leading up to her death.

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They spoke to many friends and colleagues of Carrie's, none

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of whom believed that Carrie had taken her own life.

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McNamara spoke with a teacher who had worked with Carrie.

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She reported that she had run into Matt at Walmart

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the week after Carrie had died. What caught McNamara's attention

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was what the teacher said was in Matt's shopping cart,

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a new computer and printer. Why would Matt be replacing

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his home computer just days after Carrie's death. The Private

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Eyes also did some digging on Matt Baker's past and

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found out about the alleged sexual assault on Baylor's campus

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that had been reported years later to the police after

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the statute of limitations had expired. They saw the complainant's

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name on the report was Laura Mueller, but they were

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having trouble tracking her down. In other computer news, someone

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at w C Wide noticed that the computer had gone

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missing from the vacant office next to Matt's, formerly used

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by his assistant, who had quit in frustration after working

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for Matt for nine months. The missing computer was reported

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to security, who had the IT person do some investigating.

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The IT guide discovered that the computer was still connected

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to the network and was still being used, and that

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the user logging into it was Matt Baker. They went

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and checked Matt's computer, only to discover that it was

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actually the missing compute from the office next door. Someone

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had taken the tag off of Matt's computer, placed it

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on the other computer, and then replaced Matt's computer with it,

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so it was actually Matt's computer that was missing. Matt

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00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:16.879
claimed to not have realized that his computer had been

239
00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:21.000
replaced because it looked the same to him. Later, it

240
00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:24.559
was revealed that Matt had been at WCY on June nineteenth,

241
00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:26.840
a day when not many people were there because of

242
00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:31.200
the June teenth holiday. A receptionist reported having a conversation

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00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:35.440
with Matt where he mentioned something about Carrie's suicide note.

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The receptionist said, well, if the note was written on

245
00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:40.000
a computer, there would be a time stamp on the

246
00:12:40.039 --> 00:12:42.440
document so the police could determine when it was written.

247
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Matt said, oh, well, I don't have our home computer anymore,

248
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but maybe Carrie wrote the note on her work computer.

249
00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:52.159
The receptionist, who must have been an avid true crime

250
00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:55.320
podcast listener, said, well, the police can subpoena at your

251
00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:58.720
work computer, so maybe they could subpoena Carrie's work computer

252
00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:02.399
and check. That must have gotten Matt thinking, because later

253
00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:06.480
that day Matt was seen leaving WCY with a large box,

254
00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:09.519
and it was soon after that that his computer was

255
00:13:09.559 --> 00:13:13.879
discovered to be missing. His work computer from WCY was

256
00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:17.039
never found. Wow, so he got rid of his home computer,

257
00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:20.039
he got rid of his work computer, all within a

258
00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:21.960
short period after Carrie's death.

259
00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:26.480
So he must have had incriminating searches or whatever on

260
00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:28.120
both of those computers.

261
00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:30.080
It seems that way for him to want to get

262
00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:31.960
rid of both of them. Yeah, we will find out

263
00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:34.519
more about his okay, some of his searches coming up.

264
00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:38.039
There was a third computer controversy because Matt had not

265
00:13:38.080 --> 00:13:41.840
only his home computer his computer at WCY, but he

266
00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:45.159
had a church laptop at Crossroads where he was pastor,

267
00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:48.399
and he didn't return that laptop after he was fired.

268
00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:51.399
They kept asking for it, and one of the church

269
00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:54.039
deacons finally had to threaten to report Matt to the

270
00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:57.120
police for theft, and then he finally turned it over.

271
00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:00.600
The deacon gave the laptop to his son, who gave

272
00:14:00.639 --> 00:14:03.360
it to the Waco Police Department just in case there

273
00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:06.639
was anything on it that might be useful. The Waco

274
00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:08.919
Police department, though, they returned it to the church a

275
00:14:08.919 --> 00:14:11.159
week later, saying they had taken a look but found

276
00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:12.000
nothing useful.

277
00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:16.399
The pastor who had officiated at Carrie's funeral, the one

278
00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:18.799
who had made a copy of her journal page where

279
00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:21.159
she expressed a fear of Matt, must have heard the

280
00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:24.480
rumors about Matt and decided he should give the journal

281
00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:27.559
page to the police. He sent it to a Hewitt

282
00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:31.840
officer named Ben Tooms because the pastor knew Ben's parents

283
00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:35.279
from church. Around the same time. Sergeant Cooper must have

284
00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:38.840
been sick of being second guest about the Carrie Baker case.

285
00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:41.679
He probably begged to be taken off of the case

286
00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:44.919
and got his wish on July sixth, when his boss

287
00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:47.200
told him that he was off a case and twenty

288
00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:50.279
eight year old Ben Tooms would now be taking over,

289
00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:55.360
assisted by twenty six year old Mike Speer. That same day,

290
00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:57.679
to hew What police got word that Judge Martin was

291
00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:01.720
open to ordering an exhumation and autopsy of Carrie's body.

292
00:15:02.840 --> 00:15:06.440
Texas Ranger Matt Coffin, although not officially involved in the case,

293
00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:09.679
had taken a strong interest in it and stopped by

294
00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:12.000
the Hewett Police Department to put pressure on the team

295
00:15:12.440 --> 00:15:16.120
to follow through with the exhumation. Captain Saunders of the

296
00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:19.879
Hewett Police Department was getting irritated with people injecting themselves

297
00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:24.120
into the case and implying or outright accusing that they

298
00:15:24.159 --> 00:15:28.639
had watched the investigation. Sauners asked Coffin if he was

299
00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:33.200
working for Bill Johnston, the Dulan's attorney. Coffin replied, quote, no,

300
00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:36.240
I'm working for that dead woman, and you should be too.

301
00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:40.240
Then Tombs knew a little bit about Matt Baker because

302
00:15:40.279 --> 00:15:42.600
his parents had gone to his church. He had a

303
00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:45.200
positive perception of Matt and didn't think that he would

304
00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:49.120
have killed his wife. But he dove into the investigation anyway,

305
00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:53.440
immediately writing up a request for exhumation and autopsy and

306
00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:57.440
taking it to Judge Martin, who signed it that day. Finally,

307
00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:00.759
three months after Carrie's death, the family hoped to get

308
00:16:00.759 --> 00:16:01.440
some answers.

309
00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:02.840
Three months.

310
00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:06.960
I mean, that's that's great though, that they were so persistent.

311
00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:10.279
Tombs called Matt's attorney to inform him that they were

312
00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:14.360
exhuming Carrie's body. Matt rushed to the cemetery, calling Vanessa.

313
00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:17.360
When he got there, he said to her quote, I

314
00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:22.120
wonder if they dug up Cassidy too, Oh, because Cassidy's

315
00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:24.399
death had been somewhat suspicious.

316
00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:25.960
Yeah, but it was never investigated.

317
00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:29.120
He went to Cassidy's grave and saw that it was intact.

318
00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:32.679
Vanessa would later say he sounded relieved when he told her.

319
00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:36.720
Tombs and Spear accompanied Carrie's body as it was taken

320
00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:40.159
to Dallas for the autopsy. It was a routine autopsy,

321
00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:44.240
but the toxicology testing would be complicated by the fact

322
00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:47.120
that Carrie's body had been embalmed, so there was no

323
00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:50.919
blood to test. Instead, they sent some muscle tissue to

324
00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:54.320
the lab, but this was less likely to be conclusive.

325
00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:58.679
The tox screen was positive for fentermine, dieph and hydromine,

326
00:16:58.759 --> 00:17:03.399
and soopledem. Phentermine is the diet drug that Carrie was taking,

327
00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:10.839
diefhenhydramine is the active ingredient in unism, and zopdem is ambient.

328
00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:15.319
Because the results were based on testing muscle tissue instead

329
00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:18.279
of blood, it was impossible to determine the level of

330
00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:20.880
each drug in her body. The cause of death was

331
00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:23.839
now listed as on determined, which was better than the

332
00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:27.960
previous ruling of unisom overdose, but still disappointing to the

333
00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:31.440
family who had been hoping for a clearer answer. It

334
00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:35.119
was interesting that Carrie had tested positive for ambion because

335
00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:38.119
she didn't have a prescription, and Linda knew that she

336
00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:40.559
had tried at once and didn't like the effect on her.

337
00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:44.359
So I'm guessing that Matt must have had a prescription

338
00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:44.960
for ambien.

339
00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:47.839
I don't think he had a prescription either.

340
00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:52.400
Maybe Vanessa did. The Dulan's lawyer, Bill Johnston, was able

341
00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:54.880
to get a copy of the autopsy result and send

342
00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:57.839
them to doctor David Stafford, who was a well known

343
00:17:57.880 --> 00:18:03.000
forensic toxicologist for his interpretation. Stafford studied the results and

344
00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:06.319
came back saying that there's no way this woman died

345
00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:09.400
of an overdose. If she had downed a bottle of pills.

346
00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:12.680
He said, the individual pills would have been broken down

347
00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:16.480
and been absorbed at different rates because her system would

348
00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:19.880
have slowed down as they took effect. When she died,

349
00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:23.000
some of the pills would have remained undigested in her

350
00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:27.960
stomach or intestines, which wasn't the case. Also, her lungs

351
00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:31.559
were clear, so she couldn't have choked or aspirated on

352
00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:36.319
vomit either. And Matt said that she vomited, correct.

353
00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:38.079
Yeah, well, he said there was like fluid in her

354
00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:41.240
nose and mouth, and I think he said she may

355
00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:43.839
have vomited. But remember he also told the detective at

356
00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:46.759
one point that he thought she didn't die of an overdose.

357
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:49.079
He thought she must have choked on vomit.

358
00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:54.119
Okay. While there was finally progress in the investigation, it

359
00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:57.119
was moving slowly and there was still no indication that

360
00:18:57.160 --> 00:19:00.640
the DA was thinking about proceeding with an indictment. To

361
00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:03.599
try and move things forward, Bill Johnston recommended that the

362
00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:07.960
Duelans file a wrongful death lawsuit. It wasn't about the money.

363
00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:10.799
Filing a lawsuit would give the Dulans legal team subpoena

364
00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:14.759
powers so they could get employment records, medical records, police records,

365
00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:18.920
and also to pose witnesses, including Matt. They failed the suit.

366
00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:22.599
On July thirty first, two thousand and six. Matt had

367
00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:26.519
moved two hundred miles away to Kerrville, where his parents

368
00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:28.599
lived and where he had gotten a job at a

369
00:19:28.599 --> 00:19:33.039
funeral home delivering bodies and counseling families. He was served

370
00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:36.759
papers as he was unloading boxes outside of his new duplex.

371
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:41.119
A couple of questions for you, did Vanessa go with him?

372
00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:41.759
No?

373
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:45.279
She did not, The girls did, yes? And were they

374
00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:47.759
not able to see their grandparents anymore?

375
00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:49.720
Well, they had the agreement that I think we talked

376
00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:51.759
about last time, that the Duelans had to take him

377
00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:54.799
to court to basically get him to let the girls

378
00:19:54.839 --> 00:19:57.079
see them. And so they had that agreement still in

379
00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:00.240
place where they I think they saw them like two

380
00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:01.920
two weekends a month or something like that.

381
00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:04.440
Okay, so that agreement was still in place. That's good.

382
00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:09.359
The two pis Bennett and McNamara were continuing their investigation.

383
00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:13.640
They visited WCY that was where Matt had previously worked

384
00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:17.079
and learned about the missing computer and the conversation Matt

385
00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:20.519
had with the receptionist on June nineteenth, when he was

386
00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:23.920
seen leaving with a large box. They really wanted to

387
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:27.480
track down the woman who would report of the sexual assault.

388
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:30.720
Her name and the report was listed as Laura Mueller.

389
00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:34.680
They searched and searched, but couldn't find her. They did

390
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:38.240
have her birthday from the same report, so in desperation,

391
00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:41.559
they pulled up a list of everyone born in Texas

392
00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:44.319
on that day and they didn't find a Laura Mueller,

393
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:49.279
but they found a Laura Wilson and her name was

394
00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:54.519
spelled Lra instead of la u R, and it turned

395
00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:57.119
out to be her. She had taken her husband's last

396
00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:00.640
name and the detective who took the report spelled her

397
00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:04.400
first name incorrectly. She told him exactly what Matt had

398
00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:08.079
done to her all those years ago and beg them quote,

399
00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:12.680
please get him before he does it again. I remember

400
00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:15.119
you talking about Laura in part one and how she

401
00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:18.359
was very traumatized by the experience. Extremely she had a

402
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:19.240
really hard time.

403
00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:22.200
Yeah, she really did. And that was the first, the

404
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:25.039
first sexual assault that we know of that Matt did

405
00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:28.440
that was reported. That's really great police work too, write,

406
00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:30.920
I mean, yeah, pulling up I can't imagine how long

407
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:33.240
the list of everyone born in Texas on that day

408
00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:36.319
would have been, but tracking that down was pretty impressive.

409
00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:38.960
That's fun because you in your script here have it

410
00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:41.119
written in LA you are, And in my head I

411
00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:44.640
was like, isn't it La? But that must have felt

412
00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:48.839
so good for Laura to be able to be helpful

413
00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:51.480
in this investigation. That must have been I'm sure hope

414
00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:55.680
helped her recovery. The more that Bennett and McNamara uncovered,

415
00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:59.119
the more convinced that Linda, k Nancy and Lindsay became

416
00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:03.200
of Matt's gill. They also started wondering about Cassidy because

417
00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:07.480
there were some similarities. Had Matt killed Cassidy because she

418
00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:10.759
had become an inconvenience to him? And what if Kenzie

419
00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:12.880
and Grace became inconvenient for him?

420
00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:16.240
It's so horrible to think about that, but there were

421
00:22:16.279 --> 00:22:19.960
some things about Cassidy's death that were definitely made you

422
00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:22.880
wonder the fact that he went in there she was fine.

423
00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:25.640
He said she was fine, and then like ten minutes

424
00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:27.680
later he went in there again and she wasn't breathing.

425
00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:31.559
The fact that he didn't he said, oh, we don't

426
00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:34.920
need her breathing monitor anymore, so she didn't wear that.

427
00:22:36.200 --> 00:22:37.559
There were just a number of things that were.

428
00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:41.279
I were called. Her doctor was shocked by her doth.

429
00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:44.480
Yeah, they called. He called child Protective Services because he

430
00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:47.279
thought there was no way that she was on the

431
00:22:47.319 --> 00:22:50.920
road to recovery. So I can't imagine someone doing that.

432
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:52.960
But it really does make kill You couldn't kind of

433
00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:55.359
imagine this guy doing it. He's such a dirtbag.

434
00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:59.759
Texas ranger Matt Coffin was staying involved in the case,

435
00:22:59.799 --> 00:23:02.640
and he, along with the Duelin's legal team, came to

436
00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:05.559
the conclusion that Vanessa Bowles was the key to cracking

437
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:09.079
this case. There were rumors going around the Waco area

438
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:11.759
that Vanessa and Matt had broken up, so the time

439
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:14.880
might be right to get Vanessa to talk. Coffin talked

440
00:23:14.920 --> 00:23:18.319
to the Hewett Police Department detectives working the case, Ben

441
00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:20.920
Toombs and Mike Spear, and they agreed that it would

442
00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:24.200
make sense to talk to Vanessa. They decided to surprise

443
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:26.319
her as she was stopping by the grocery store one

444
00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:29.039
evening after class. She agreed to come to the station

445
00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:33.039
and speak with them. Vanessa seemed nervous and talkative. It

446
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:35.279
almost sounded as if she had rehearsed what she was

447
00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:38.079
going to say, because she pretty much told her story

448
00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:41.359
without being prompted, and it was very consistent with what

449
00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:44.279
Matt had told the police. She said that she and

450
00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:47.000
Carrie had become friends, but then Matt started calling her

451
00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:50.400
in late January or early February. She didn't think he

452
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:52.799
was pursuing her, He just wanted to chat and help

453
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:55.960
her through her divorce. She said. They did start seeing

454
00:23:55.960 --> 00:23:58.119
each other after Carrie passed away, but it was all

455
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:01.480
very innocent and above board. It was always them hanging

456
00:24:01.519 --> 00:24:05.079
out with their kids. Over time, she started hearing rumors

457
00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:08.039
about Matt's past, and she decided to break it off

458
00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:12.000
with him. The officers, both young men, seemed to allow

459
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:15.079
Vanessa to control the interview. They didn't ask any hard

460
00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:17.680
follow up questions, and they let her change the subject

461
00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:21.039
any time she seemed to feel uncomfortable with the direction

462
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:24.160
that it was going. They decided she was being truthful

463
00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:25.920
and there was no reason to ask her to take

464
00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:29.880
a lie detector test. The subpoenas from the wrongful death

465
00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:33.759
lawsuits started bearing fruit. When the team got access to

466
00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:36.920
the few crime scene photos that had been taken. They

467
00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:39.839
sent them to an independent crime scene analyst, who said

468
00:24:39.880 --> 00:24:42.920
that the extent of the lividity evident in the photos

469
00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:47.240
did not match the timeline given by Matt. In his opinion,

470
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:50.839
much more time had elapsed than forty five minutes. He

471
00:24:50.920 --> 00:24:53.759
also noted that there appeared to be bruising on Carrie's

472
00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:57.039
nose and lips, suggesting that she may have been drugged

473
00:24:57.079 --> 00:25:01.359
and then smothered. The subpoena for computer rect from WCY

474
00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:04.440
showed that Matt had done all sorts of searches on

475
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:09.400
various drug sites, porn sites, and dating sites. Matt's laptop

476
00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:12.240
from Crossroads Church, the one that the Waco police had

477
00:25:12.279 --> 00:25:16.200
said contained nothing of interest, also showed visits to various

478
00:25:16.279 --> 00:25:19.880
dating and porn sites. Some of the sites Matt visited

479
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:24.440
included sex list dot com, hotmatch Up dot com, sex

480
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:28.200
datenetwork dot com, I Want a New Girlfriend dot com,

481
00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:30.119
and hornymatches dot com.

482
00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:32.240
Oh my gosh, I have been out of the dating

483
00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:35.279
scenes for so I didn't even know those existed.

484
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:39.160
Yeah. The drug sites he visited included drugs dot com,

485
00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:43.240
medicine net dot com, rxlist dot com, and hydrocodone dot

486
00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:48.640
com and Ambient dot com existed either, and a month

487
00:25:48.680 --> 00:25:52.240
before Carrie's death, Matt had googled the phrase overdose on

488
00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:56.240
sleeping pills in what the team felt was the closest

489
00:25:56.240 --> 00:25:58.319
to a smoking gun that they were likely to find.

490
00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:01.599
They discovered that Matt had added generic Ambient to a

491
00:26:01.640 --> 00:26:05.240
shopping cart on one drug site, but he hadn't completed

492
00:26:05.240 --> 00:26:08.279
the purchase. They spoke with the drug company, who said

493
00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:10.160
that a lot of people abandoned their card at that

494
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:13.039
point because there's a two week delay before drugs can

495
00:26:13.079 --> 00:26:17.599
be delivered while the company verifies a prescription. Matt had

496
00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:21.240
also made an online purchase of some herbal sexual stimulants.

497
00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:24.440
These were over the counter capsules that claimed to have

498
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:28.720
an aphrodisiac effect. By the fall of two thousand and six,

499
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:31.680
Hewittt Police detective Ben Toombs had come to believe that

500
00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:35.160
Matt Baker had most likely killed his wife, but he

501
00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:37.519
also didn't think they would ever be able to prove it.

502
00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:40.759
The DA was still unwilling to take the case. They

503
00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:44.720
didn't think it was winnable, so the investigation once again stalled.

504
00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:48.680
The wrongful death lawsuit continued and Matt was brought in

505
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:51.680
for a deposition, but he pleaded the fifth refusing to

506
00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:54.720
answer any questions. He had also been told to bring

507
00:26:54.759 --> 00:26:58.720
in various items photos, journals, notes, and his home computer

508
00:26:58.839 --> 00:27:03.039
and printer, care, Mary's Bible and more, but he brought

509
00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:05.759
none of them. He said that he wasn't given adequate

510
00:27:05.799 --> 00:27:08.039
time to gather the items and some weren't in his

511
00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:11.839
possession anymore. He promised to follow up and provide the items,

512
00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:15.279
but of course he never did. The months flew by

513
00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:18.079
until August two thousand and seven, when Linda wrote a

514
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:20.680
letter to Judge Billy Martin asking him to hold an

515
00:27:20.680 --> 00:27:24.599
inquest into Carrie's death with all the information and evidence

516
00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:27.200
they had gathered. This was the next logical step in

517
00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:31.079
trying to get the investigation restarted. Martin agreed, and the

518
00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:35.279
inquest was scheduled for late August. There were three possible

519
00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:38.720
outcomes to the inquest. First, Judge Martin could listen to

520
00:27:38.720 --> 00:27:42.200
the evidence and leave the suicide ruling in place. If

521
00:27:42.200 --> 00:27:46.039
that happened, the duel In's quest for justice was essentially over.

522
00:27:46.759 --> 00:27:48.920
It would be nearly impossible at that point to get

523
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:53.359
a prosecution. Second, the judge could rule carries DAPA homicide.

524
00:27:54.039 --> 00:27:56.519
This was the outcome that Linda and Jim were hoping for.

525
00:27:56.839 --> 00:28:00.119
It would be an opportunity for Judge Martin to rectify

526
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:02.440
the mistake he had made on the night of Carrie's death,

527
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:06.039
being so quick to rule her death of suicide. The

528
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:08.720
third option, which is what Judge Martin ended up doing,

529
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:12.519
was to rule the manner of death undetermined. This at

530
00:28:12.599 --> 00:28:15.599
least left the door open for an eventual prosecution, but

531
00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:19.839
it still wasn't ideal, especially given the DA's reluctance to

532
00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:24.359
prosecute this case. It didn't really change anything. However, With

533
00:28:24.440 --> 00:28:26.920
the door at least slightly opened, the Duelan's legal and

534
00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:29.799
investigative team was more determined than ever to kick it

535
00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:33.440
wide open. They talked again to Texas Ranger Matt Coffin.

536
00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:35.759
Matt was on their side and felt like there was

537
00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:38.839
enough evidence to arrest Matt, but he also didn't want

538
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:42.519
to step on the toes of local law enforcement. He did, however,

539
00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:45.039
feel comfortable at least giving them a strong nudge in

540
00:28:45.079 --> 00:28:48.400
the right direction. He met with Hewittt Police Chief Barton

541
00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:50.920
and said, if you don't write a warrant to arrest

542
00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:54.960
Matt Baker, that I will. Chief Barton instructed Ben Toombs

543
00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:57.599
to write the warrant, which was presented to Judge Martin,

544
00:28:57.680 --> 00:29:01.640
who signed it that day. Afternoon in September two thousand

545
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:04.200
and seven, Matt Baker turned himself in at the Kerr

546
00:29:04.279 --> 00:29:08.160
County Sheriff's office. Linda and Jim were pleased, but they

547
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:11.240
knew the road ahead was still long and fraught with obstacles.

548
00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:14.559
Just because he was arrested didn't mean that the DA

549
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:18.000
John Segrest would decide to bring the case to trial.

550
00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:20.359
We'll be back after a break.

551
00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:31.440
The case ended up on the desk of Prosecutor Crawford Long.

552
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:34.319
He looked over all the evidence and he didn't like

553
00:29:34.359 --> 00:29:37.160
what he saw. He thought the lividity in the photos

554
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:40.720
was fairly strong evidence, but he spoke with some experts

555
00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:43.640
who said they couldn't absolutely rule out that the lividity

556
00:29:43.799 --> 00:29:48.400
couldn't happen that quickly. The defense expert could plant reasonable

557
00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:51.359
doubt in the minds of a jury. He also sent

558
00:29:51.400 --> 00:29:54.960
out the Unison bottle and suicide note for testing, and

559
00:29:55.119 --> 00:29:58.880
neither came back with any of Matt's DNA or fingerprints.

560
00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:02.599
He wasn't sure the evidence was substantial enough and didn't

561
00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:05.440
want to rush it. You only have one shot at

562
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:08.559
a prosecution. If the person is found not guilty, it's

563
00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:11.279
over and you can't try someone again because of double

564
00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:15.119
jeopardy laws. There is no statute of limitations on murder,

565
00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:18.960
so Crawford decided to take it slow. The problem with

566
00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:21.599
taking it slow is that an arrest warrant in Texas

567
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:25.279
lapses after one hundred and eighty days if no indictment

568
00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:28.880
is brought, and that's exactly what happened. In March twenty eight,

569
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:31.920
two thousand and eight, the charges against Matt were dropped.

570
00:30:32.599 --> 00:30:35.119
Such a long, long fight for justice.

571
00:30:36.680 --> 00:30:39.880
Do you remember Shannon Gamble? I do you do. We

572
00:30:39.960 --> 00:30:43.039
talked about her briefly. She was the mom of Carrie's

573
00:30:43.160 --> 00:30:47.359
third grade student. Shannon had run into Carrie at Walmart

574
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:49.440
on the last day of her life. She didn't know

575
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:52.400
Carrie that well, but she was moved by how much

576
00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:56.000
Carrie obviously cared about her son, Brody and her other students.

577
00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:59.799
In her gut, she never believed that Carrie had taken

578
00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:02.720
her her own life. When Matt was arrested in September

579
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:05.759
two thousand and seven, Shannon decided she wanted to do

580
00:31:05.839 --> 00:31:10.119
something to support justice for Carrie, so she started a blog.

581
00:31:10.759 --> 00:31:14.119
She launched the blog called Don't Even Get Me started

582
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:17.440
with the first post on September twenty fourth, two thousand

583
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:20.759
and seven, talking about a conversation with her now fifth

584
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:23.799
grade son, telling him that his teacher's husband had been

585
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:27.119
arrested for killing her. Her first post ended with the

586
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:30.359
words quote, let all kinds of justice rain down on

587
00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:34.039
this evil man. The blog is still online today, and

588
00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:37.839
we'll link it in our show notes. The blog became

589
00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:41.079
popular locally. It was a place where the community could

590
00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:45.240
gather virtually shear anecdotes about Carrie and rally for justice.

591
00:31:46.119 --> 00:31:48.960
Once Matt's arrest warrant lapsed and the charges against him

592
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:52.880
were dropped, Shannon decided to make bumper stickers and gave

593
00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:56.000
them away to anyone who wanted them. That's so kind

594
00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:57.039
and generous of hers.

595
00:31:57.079 --> 00:31:59.240
Just another thing that really moves me in this case,

596
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:02.000
all the people that were really rallying together.

597
00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:08.200
Nothing makes me more emotional than overt kindness. The bumper

598
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:11.640
stickers were simple, a blue background with bold letters and

599
00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:16.640
white reading Justice for Carrie. Soon they were everywhere around Hewett,

600
00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:20.359
including on cars parked outside the courthouse where the DA's

601
00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:23.720
office was, and on cars everywhere that the Hewitt police

602
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:27.799
officers patrolled. There is no doubt the bumper sticker campaign

603
00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:32.480
helped to continue applying pressure on authorities. That's amazing.

604
00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:33.039
Yeah.

605
00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:36.960
When Matt was arrested, the Doolan family put the wrongful

606
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:40.519
death lawsuit on hold, but when the charges were dropped,

607
00:32:40.599 --> 00:32:44.279
they resumed their civil case. They had Matt scheduled for

608
00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:48.400
another deposition, and this time his lawyer surprisingly encouraged him

609
00:32:48.440 --> 00:32:52.200
to talk. Met had a new lawyer, guy James Gray,

610
00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:56.160
who was a former prosecutor as a DA. Gray hadn't

611
00:32:56.200 --> 00:32:59.799
lost a case in twenty years as a defense attorney.

612
00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:02.960
He only took cases where he truly believed the defendant

613
00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:07.440
was innocent. He interviewed Matt, believed his story, and agreed

614
00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:11.400
to take his case pro bono. Really, the guy deserves

615
00:33:11.400 --> 00:33:14.799
no grace at all. Part of Gray's strategy was to

616
00:33:14.839 --> 00:33:16.920
get Matt in front of the media, who had picked

617
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:19.960
up the story around the time of his arrest. Matt

618
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:23.440
did several interviews whether they helped Matt's cause or not

619
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:28.519
as questionable. He contradicted himself many times, and most observers

620
00:33:28.519 --> 00:33:32.440
felt like the interviews made Matt look guilty. In any case,

621
00:33:32.559 --> 00:33:35.599
Gray decided that since Matt had spoken publicly, it wouldn't

622
00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:37.720
be a good look for a jury if he were

623
00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:41.119
to take the fifth again. He did take the fifth

624
00:33:41.160 --> 00:33:44.839
on questions related to the past accusations of sexual assault,

625
00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:49.319
but he answered questions regarding Carrie's death and his relationship

626
00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:53.000
with Vanessa Bowles. He told mostly the same story about

627
00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:55.359
the knight of Carrie's death as he had done before.

628
00:33:55.839 --> 00:33:58.400
The only addition was that he said when the EMTs

629
00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:01.640
showed up, they told him to continue giving CPR to

630
00:34:01.720 --> 00:34:04.839
Carrie because he was doing such a great job.

631
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:07.519
Yes, the empts are like, you're so good at this,

632
00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:10.159
keep it up. That's what he made it sound like.

633
00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:12.880
Well, I remember during the nine to one one call

634
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:16.440
he said, yeah, it sounded like he wasn't even making

635
00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:17.400
any effort at all.

636
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:18.480
It didn't sound like it now.

637
00:34:19.639 --> 00:34:22.840
Regarding his relationship with Vanessa, he claimed they were just

638
00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:25.800
friends until the summer of two thousand and six, when

639
00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:29.199
it became romantic. He said it only went to the

640
00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:32.079
next level because his kids liked Vanessa and wanted to

641
00:34:32.119 --> 00:34:35.000
spend more time with her. I have rolled my eyes

642
00:34:35.079 --> 00:34:38.159
more in this case than any other case. Yep. He

643
00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:41.159
said they had only kissed twice and hadn't had sex

644
00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:44.039
at all before they broke up. And no, they weren't

645
00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:47.480
shopping for engagement rings. They were at Kay Jewelers looking

646
00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:51.440
for earrings for grace. And how about his Internet searches

647
00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:54.199
for drugs? He said he had just made those searches

648
00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:57.320
because he was worried that Carrie was taking too many

649
00:34:57.360 --> 00:34:58.280
sleeping pills.

650
00:34:58.400 --> 00:34:59.079
What a guy.

651
00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:02.880
In January two thousand and nine, going on three years

652
00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:07.559
since Carrie's death, McLellan County DA John Seagrest was feeling

653
00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:10.400
the pressure to get things moving on the case. Whether

654
00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:13.079
it was all the bumper stickers around town or maybe

655
00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:16.239
the fact that Segrest was up for reelection soon. He

656
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:19.760
decided the case could use a fresh set of eyes.

657
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:23.159
So many cases have a fresh set of eyes, There's.

658
00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:24.960
Been a lot of fresh sets of eyes on this one.

659
00:35:25.400 --> 00:35:28.760
Seagrest gave it to Abden Rodriguez, one of the investigators

660
00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:32.840
on staff at the DA's office. Rodriguez reviewed the tapes

661
00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:36.840
of both Matt and Vanessa's interrogations and felt certain they

662
00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:40.519
were both lying. He arrived at the same conclusion others

663
00:35:40.519 --> 00:35:44.480
had before him. Vanessa Bowles was the key to this case.

664
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:46.880
He had to bring her in and get her to

665
00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:50.679
tell the truth. After going back and forth with Vanessa's lawyer,

666
00:35:50.760 --> 00:35:52.840
they arranged for her to come in for an interview.

667
00:35:53.159 --> 00:35:56.039
She told basically the same story as before, claiming that

668
00:35:56.079 --> 00:35:59.559
Matt was just counseling her in the months before Carrie died.

669
00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:03.079
Referring to the phone records showing how often and for

670
00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:07.039
how long they talked, Reguez remarked, that is a lot

671
00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:10.880
of counseling. Two weeks later, he decided to take another

672
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:14.199
run at her. He called her and bluffed, saying, quote,

673
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:17.480
I know what you did. I know what Matt Baker did.

674
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:20.880
I know you two were having a sexual relationship, and

675
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:24.480
I know you know what happened to Carrie Baker. End quote.

676
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:28.719
He offered Vanessa immunity if she would come clean. She

677
00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:31.159
agreed to come and talk with him again, but her

678
00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:35.519
lawyer called Rodriguez back and said no, she had reconsidered

679
00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:38.920
and would not be coming in after all. Rodriguez then

680
00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:42.679
called Crawford Long, the prosecutor, and said, we need to

681
00:36:42.679 --> 00:36:46.039
get this woman in front of a grand jury. Long agreed,

682
00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:49.920
and soon Vanessa was served with a subpoena.

683
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:53.400
Before she was scheduled to appear, her lawyer called Long

684
00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:56.679
and said that Vanessa was planning to take the fifth However,

685
00:36:57.039 --> 00:36:59.559
she did have information and wanted to strike a deal

686
00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:03.239
for amune unity. Long didn't want to give her blanket immunity,

687
00:37:03.320 --> 00:37:06.119
not knowing how deep her involvement was in Carrie's death,

688
00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:11.079
so he offered what's called testimonial immunity, essentially that guarantees

689
00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:13.480
that whatever she said to the grand jury couldn't be

690
00:37:13.559 --> 00:37:16.800
used against her. When she sat before the grand jury

691
00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:19.719
on March twenty fifth, two thousand and nine, Vanessa stunned

692
00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:22.760
everyone when she said Matt told her that he had

693
00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:25.639
killed Carrie so that he could be with her. The

694
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:28.239
next day, the grand jury returned an indictment on the

695
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:31.800
charge of murder against Matt Baker. Matt was taken into

696
00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:34.440
custody again before being released on bond.

697
00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:39.519
What woman is okay with that? And obviously she was,

698
00:37:39.559 --> 00:37:43.320
but yeah, it's hard to imagine, Okay, kill your wife

699
00:37:43.360 --> 00:37:45.159
and then we can be together. I'm okay with them.

700
00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:48.519
I'm sure I'll never do it again. They had the indictment,

701
00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:51.719
but they needed more detail from Vanessa to ensure a conviction.

702
00:37:52.360 --> 00:37:55.800
She was still reticent when Rodriguez interviewed her after the

703
00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:59.719
grand jury testimony. She finally admitted that the relationship with

704
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:03.079
Matt had been sexual, but still claimed that it hadn't

705
00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:07.280
started until after Carrie died. Rodriguez kept pushing and finally

706
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:09.960
got her to admit they did have sex once before

707
00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:14.039
Carrie died. Rodriguez interviewed her one more time over Labor

708
00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:17.199
Day weekend of two thousand and nine. She finally seemed

709
00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:19.599
to realize that her only choice was to open up

710
00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:23.039
and come clean. She talked to Rodriguez for three hours

711
00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:26.599
and admitted the affair with Matt started months before Carrie's death.

712
00:38:27.199 --> 00:38:30.119
By late February, Matt had begun planning how to kill

713
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:33.559
Carrie and talked openly about his plans with Vanessa.

714
00:38:34.679 --> 00:38:37.480
He started talking about things he could do. He said that,

715
00:38:38.320 --> 00:38:40.920
you know, she took sleeping pills every night, so maybe

716
00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:43.840
he could make it look like she overdosed on sleeping pills.

717
00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:47.480
He talked initially about maybe putting something in a milkshake,

718
00:38:48.039 --> 00:38:50.199
because he said she liked milkshake, so he was thinking

719
00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:54.119
about maybe putting sleeping medication in there and having her

720
00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:56.679
drink that. He talked about making it look like she'd

721
00:38:56.760 --> 00:39:01.039
hung herself, maybe having her hang out somewhere and leaving

722
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:03.360
a note making it look like she'd hung herself. He

723
00:39:03.400 --> 00:39:07.639
talked about tampering with the brakes of her car. He

724
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:12.760
had talked about maybe doing a dry by shooting. And

725
00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:17.199
one night, maybe a week or so after that, after

726
00:39:17.239 --> 00:39:19.760
he talked about tampering with her breaks she was late.

727
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:22.039
He said that the night before she was late coming

728
00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:25.880
back home from teaching college, and he said he started

729
00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:28.239
to get excited, thinking maybe she really did have a

730
00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:30.639
wreck and he wouldn't have to do anything.

731
00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:35.719
I'm so bothered by them having these discussions about the

732
00:39:35.800 --> 00:39:40.480
best fighting to kill Carrie, who. I don't did Vanessa

733
00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:42.639
believe that Carrie was a horrible person.

734
00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:44.400
I mean, even if she I think she did believe that,

735
00:39:44.599 --> 00:39:45.039
even if.

736
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:46.960
She was a horrible person.

737
00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:50.440
Exactly, even if she was, that does not give justification

738
00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:54.599
for murder. Matt told Vanessa beforehand that he was going

739
00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:57.239
to do it that Friday night. She said that he

740
00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:00.639
bought the sexual enhancement capsules on the internet. Knowing that

741
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:02.880
Carrie was willing to do whatever it took to try

742
00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:05.719
to rescue the marriage. He emptied the contents of the

743
00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:09.239
capsules and filled them with crushed ambient. They drank some

744
00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:11.760
wine coolers, and then he handcuffed Carrie to the bad

745
00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:14.960
as a form of foreplay. Again, he knew she was

746
00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:17.880
willing to try anything. After a little while, she fell

747
00:40:17.960 --> 00:40:20.400
asleep from the ambient, he said.

748
00:40:20.440 --> 00:40:25.480
Then, whenever he did that, he said, he kissed her

749
00:40:25.480 --> 00:40:28.679
on the forehead and either I don't know which way

750
00:40:28.760 --> 00:40:30.760
said he either said, give Cassidy a hug for me,

751
00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:32.079
or give Cassidy.

752
00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:32.320
A kiss for me.

753
00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:36.760
Then he said he got the pillow and put it

754
00:40:36.760 --> 00:40:41.000
over her face. Next he said that he thought she

755
00:40:41.079 --> 00:40:44.800
was dead, so he stopped. And then I don't know

756
00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:46.760
how long, he said, she wasn't breathing. A couple of

757
00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:51.639
seconds later, she just took one big gasp for air,

758
00:40:52.519 --> 00:40:58.280
and that he said, oh shit. And then he showed

759
00:40:58.280 --> 00:41:00.119
me his hand. He said he put the pell hell

760
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:01.840
on her face. But then he said he did this

761
00:41:01.960 --> 00:41:04.239
with his hand where her nose was, where her nose

762
00:41:04.280 --> 00:41:07.039
and mouth where he said he did this area tighter

763
00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:09.159
so he would be sure to suffocate her.

764
00:41:10.360 --> 00:41:14.079
Such a chilling, chilling story, you know, so so horrible.

765
00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:14.880
Oh my god.

766
00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:18.239
The prosecution was pleased that they now had what they

767
00:41:18.280 --> 00:41:20.679
believed to be the truth from Vanessa, but they still

768
00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:24.559
wanted some physical evidence to corroborate her story. The jury

769
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:27.440
would likely look at her testimony with skepticism because she

770
00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:30.559
had lied for so long. Her mention of them feeding

771
00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:34.239
Carrie drugs in a milkshake jogged their memory. Looking back

772
00:41:34.280 --> 00:41:36.719
at the emails between Matt and Carrie, they found the

773
00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:40.079
one from the day before the seventh anniversary of Cassidy's death,

774
00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:44.280
where Matt suggested making Carrie a special milkshake with extra

775
00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:48.199
chocolate syrup. Indeed, Vanessa said that Matt had mixed the

776
00:41:48.280 --> 00:41:51.400
ambient into a milkshake that night, but Carrie said it

777
00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:54.880
tasted bad and wouldn't drink it. That lended credibility to

778
00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:58.599
Vanessa's story, hopefully it would be enough to convince a jury.

779
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:02.719
After hearing the whole story from Vanessa, the DA considered

780
00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:05.519
prosecuting her as well. She was very much in the

781
00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:08.119
loop on Matt's plans to kill Carrie and did nothing

782
00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:11.599
to stop it, but they decided not to. First, they

783
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:15.280
didn't have any evidence that she actively participated in Carrie's murder,

784
00:42:15.320 --> 00:42:18.320
and second, they really needed Vanessa's help if they were

785
00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:22.199
going to convict Matt. Before the trial, Matt met with

786
00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:25.199
his lawyer, Guy James Gray, and admitted that he had

787
00:42:25.239 --> 00:42:28.639
lied about his relationship with Vanessa. It had been sexual.

788
00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:32.840
Remember that Gray valued trust and tried to only represent

789
00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:36.039
people that he believed to be innocent. He had believed

790
00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:38.960
in Matt, but now the trust was broken and Gray

791
00:42:39.159 --> 00:42:42.440
was furious. He filed a motion asking to be taken

792
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:44.719
off the case, saying there was a serious breach of

793
00:42:44.760 --> 00:42:48.400
confidence with his client. Getting new lawyers would delay the

794
00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:52.119
trial by months. So the judge denied Gray's motion. He

795
00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:54.400
would be forced to represent a client that he no

796
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:58.000
longer trusted. Gray still said that he did his best,

797
00:42:58.039 --> 00:43:00.840
but he avoided even speaking to Matt after that unless

798
00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:03.559
he had to, which is just kind of wild to

799
00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:06.039
think about. So your lawyer basically is like, I don't

800
00:43:06.079 --> 00:43:08.360
want to represent you anymore, and the judge said you

801
00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:11.400
have to, which you know, if you put yourself in

802
00:43:11.440 --> 00:43:14.039
Matt's shoes, I know it's hard to do but that

803
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:16.880
can't be a good feeling knowing that your lawyer doesn't

804
00:43:16.960 --> 00:43:18.280
like you, doesn't want to talk to you.

805
00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:21.440
So Matt didn't have the decision to fire him.

806
00:43:21.559 --> 00:43:22.599
No, it wasn't an option.

807
00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:23.599
Wow.

808
00:43:24.199 --> 00:43:27.239
The trial was called to order on Wednesday, January thirteenth,

809
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:31.360
twenty ten. The prosecution's case admittedly was not the strongest.

810
00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:34.800
The investigation was botched from the beginning, and so much

811
00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:38.079
evidence had been lost. The lynchpin of their case was

812
00:43:38.199 --> 00:43:41.840
Vanessa Bulls, who had lied repeatedly for years, and as

813
00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:44.320
it turns out, was actively involved in the plans to

814
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:47.960
kill Carrie. The defense's goal was to convince the jury

815
00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:51.960
that Carrie was depressed. A doctor had prescribed an antidepressant

816
00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:55.000
to Carrie just days before her death. Carrie wrote in

817
00:43:55.039 --> 00:43:58.239
her journals about her struggles, although to be fair, most

818
00:43:58.239 --> 00:44:00.840
of those writings were from six or seven years before

819
00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:04.840
she died, not long after losing her baby girl in

820
00:44:04.920 --> 00:44:07.119
a strange way. The shoddy police work was a key

821
00:44:07.159 --> 00:44:09.880
part of their defense as well. They would argue that

822
00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:13.360
because the police didn't do their job initially, there was

823
00:44:13.480 --> 00:44:16.440
unfortunately no way the jury could know for sure what happened.

824
00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:20.440
Vanessa Bull's testimony was the big moment that everyone was

825
00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:24.119
waiting for. She recounted how their relationship started.

826
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:27.159
One time I was sitting by myself in the church.

827
00:44:27.199 --> 00:44:29.719
It was before the service started, when no one else

828
00:44:29.800 --> 00:44:31.599
had gotten there. My dad was doing the sound check.

829
00:44:32.159 --> 00:44:34.320
He came in and he just sat down, started talking

830
00:44:34.360 --> 00:44:36.480
to me, you know, just casual, Oh how are you,

831
00:44:36.559 --> 00:44:39.639
started asking me things about my divorce, and started telling

832
00:44:39.639 --> 00:44:41.320
that you looked at my daughter, and I said, whoever

833
00:44:41.320 --> 00:44:43.000
finds you is going to be a lucky man.

834
00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:46.159
Soon he started dropping hints.

835
00:44:46.599 --> 00:44:51.320
Sometime in December. I don't remember what the conversation was,

836
00:44:51.400 --> 00:44:54.000
but I was talking to someone about when you guys

837
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:56.199
starting to call me, you know, but I'm getting a divorce.

838
00:44:56.280 --> 00:44:57.760
I don't know if I can really feel like I

839
00:44:57.760 --> 00:45:01.239
can date again. And he obviously overheard because later he

840
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:03.280
came by and was kind of smiling. He said, Oh,

841
00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:06.000
don't date other guys, just date your pastor, and kind

842
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:08.360
of smiled, and so I just kind of threw back

843
00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:11.280
another comment like oh yeah, haha, laughing, thinking that he

844
00:45:11.360 --> 00:45:12.519
was just joking.

845
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:16.800
What a what a funny joke. Then he got even more.

846
00:45:16.599 --> 00:45:20.480
Direct after that. There was there was some kind of

847
00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:22.360
a church pot luck. I want to say it was

848
00:45:22.519 --> 00:45:25.159
a Christmas pot luck that we had. I'm not positive though,

849
00:45:25.880 --> 00:45:28.199
And I was outside against some food and he started

850
00:45:28.199 --> 00:45:31.239
walking down the hallway. Everyone else was in the recreation

851
00:45:31.360 --> 00:45:33.760
area eating and he kind of motioned for me to

852
00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:37.079
walk down that way. I did, and he goes, will

853
00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:39.280
you really? I said, will you will? I really? What

854
00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:43.639
he said, will you really date your pastor? And I

855
00:45:43.719 --> 00:45:45.559
just I didn't say anything. I just kind of looked

856
00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:48.199
at him. He said, well, he said, I've had a vasectomy,

857
00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:50.119
so I can't get you pregnant. Also, I don't have

858
00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:56.760
any STDs. And then I said have you done that before?

859
00:45:56.800 --> 00:45:59.119
And he kind of laughed and he said no comment.

860
00:45:59.199 --> 00:46:02.360
Then he started laughing again, said she's completely clueless.

861
00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:03.440
He said I did it one.

862
00:46:03.320 --> 00:46:06.159
Time at True at Seminary while he was a ministerial

863
00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:07.679
student there. He said, she had on her. Then I

864
00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:10.880
cheated on her a couple of times in Dallas, things

865
00:46:10.880 --> 00:46:11.519
of that nature.

866
00:46:12.079 --> 00:46:14.320
I think hearing all this is super interesting because it's

867
00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:16.719
just it gives you a glimpse into Matt's approach to

868
00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:19.159
try to pick up women, and it's just how does

869
00:46:19.400 --> 00:46:22.199
how did this work? Ever? For anybody you know.

870
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:27.119
I mean, he's gross, he's and not that it matters,

871
00:46:27.119 --> 00:46:30.079
but she's a beautiful Vanus is a beautiful woman, and

872
00:46:30.119 --> 00:46:32.239
Matt just looks like your dog's butt.

873
00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:36.119
Yeah, pretty much as we've heard from other people. Matt

874
00:46:36.199 --> 00:46:38.320
loved talking badly about Carrie.

875
00:46:38.960 --> 00:46:42.039
He said she was a horrible mother, said that she

876
00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:44.360
made the girls cry all the time. He said he

877
00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:46.639
did everything for them except for do their hair. He

878
00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:49.920
said Carrie actually did did the girl's hair, but he

879
00:46:49.960 --> 00:46:54.440
said other than that that they were always upset, that

880
00:46:54.559 --> 00:46:57.280
she was a horrible mother, and that she never he

881
00:46:57.360 --> 00:46:58.880
never did, she never did anything.

882
00:47:00.039 --> 00:47:02.320
I think her excuse for why Matt was able to

883
00:47:02.880 --> 00:47:05.159
take advantage of her was because she said she was

884
00:47:05.199 --> 00:47:07.760
young and naive and going through a difficult time.

885
00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:12.199
I was buying into everything. He was complete and still

886
00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:17.920
is a manipulative liar who took me my vulnerable state

887
00:47:18.920 --> 00:47:21.239
and made me believe everything he said.

888
00:47:22.599 --> 00:47:25.000
She then told the story that we heard earlier about

889
00:47:25.039 --> 00:47:27.960
how Matt talked about his plans to kill Carrie, and

890
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:30.760
she gave all the details that he shared with her.

891
00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:33.559
After it was done, she said that he chose the

892
00:47:33.599 --> 00:47:35.800
movie When a Man Loves a woman, not because it

893
00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:38.199
was the movie they saw on the first date, but

894
00:47:38.280 --> 00:47:41.199
because it was about a mother who treated her children badly,

895
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:45.119
which reminded him of Carrie. The next time Vanessa saw

896
00:47:45.159 --> 00:47:48.360
Matt was on Wednesday, five days after he killed Carrie.

897
00:47:49.280 --> 00:47:51.480
I got there, I couldn't believe he'd actually gone through it.

898
00:47:51.719 --> 00:47:55.239
And first before he told me the story, he said,

899
00:47:55.719 --> 00:47:57.840
you know you're stuck with me, right because you knew

900
00:47:58.039 --> 00:48:00.639
you knew about it, so you're just you're just as

901
00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:05.920
much guilty. And God is a forgiving god. He'll forgive

902
00:48:05.960 --> 00:48:08.559
you for knowing about this as he has forgiven me.

903
00:48:09.760 --> 00:48:12.440
And he stated also that if I were to ever

904
00:48:12.480 --> 00:48:17.639
say anything that no one would believe me because he

905
00:48:17.719 --> 00:48:18.320
was a preacher.

906
00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:22.920
Vanessa and Matt's relationship continued, but Vanessa claimed that she

907
00:48:23.079 --> 00:48:24.000
wasn't in love with him.

908
00:48:24.639 --> 00:48:27.880
We're never really in a relationship. I think I was more.

909
00:48:28.719 --> 00:48:33.199
I was more worried about myself than because not only

910
00:48:33.199 --> 00:48:35.199
had I known about this and not done the right thing,

911
00:48:37.400 --> 00:48:38.079
and truth.

912
00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:38.840
Who wouldn't believe me?

913
00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:44.039
He was a preacher, And so I felt like I

914
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:49.880
was stuck. And I thought, as long as I didn't

915
00:48:49.880 --> 00:48:52.320
care about being in love anymore, I just wanted to

916
00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:56.440
be safe. I know that sounds ironic, that I was like,

917
00:48:56.480 --> 00:48:58.480
as long as someone's good to me, I down care

918
00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:01.800
about being in love, care about being attracted to someone,

919
00:49:01.840 --> 00:49:05.239
because I wasn't in love with him, I wasn't attracted

920
00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:07.519
to him. I just ironically felt that I would be

921
00:49:07.559 --> 00:49:11.000
safe that he was a preacher, even though he killed

922
00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:11.480
his wife.

923
00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:16.360
Logic's a little hard to follow there. She wanted to

924
00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:18.760
be safe, so of course, be with the man who

925
00:49:18.840 --> 00:49:22.119
killed his wife. As time went on, Vanessa said that

926
00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:24.519
she started feeling ashamed of her part in it, and

927
00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:27.639
that she started to fear Matt. When she dumped him,

928
00:49:27.719 --> 00:49:30.239
he was outraged, saying, I killed my wife for you,

929
00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:33.079
and now you're leaving me. She spoke with him one

930
00:49:33.159 --> 00:49:35.719
last time after the breakup. When Matt called her to

931
00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:39.159
check in on her, Vanessa described it as the creepiest

932
00:49:39.159 --> 00:49:40.679
phone call she's ever had.

933
00:49:41.800 --> 00:49:45.159
Then I just told him that, I said, I'm going

934
00:49:45.239 --> 00:49:46.880
to hang up, and after I do, I'm calling the

935
00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:49.320
Hue Pity and the Dunels investigators and tell him that

936
00:49:49.320 --> 00:49:52.800
you called me. And he said, well, the whole time

937
00:49:53.800 --> 00:49:57.719
he was completely calm. He said, well, if you feel

938
00:49:57.719 --> 00:50:01.800
like you need to do that, okay, like nothing had happened.

939
00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:03.079
And then.

940
00:50:04.599 --> 00:50:06.360
I told me and I said, you really need to

941
00:50:06.400 --> 00:50:08.199
turn herself in or I'm gonna tell.

942
00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:13.599
What you did. And he said, better not do that.

943
00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:18.960
In that creepy tone. He said, Essa, you really better

944
00:50:19.039 --> 00:50:19.559
not do that.

945
00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:22.119
And I but.

946
00:50:23.960 --> 00:50:28.320
And that's when I started crying. And then he said, well,

947
00:50:28.360 --> 00:50:30.440
hopefully after this is all over, I can give you

948
00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:30.880
a hug.

949
00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:33.039
And I hung up the phone.

950
00:50:34.039 --> 00:50:37.480
That's so creepy. You better not do that. Yeah, just

951
00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:38.760
I can just picture it.

952
00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:44.880
Oh chilling. Do we question the reliability of Vanessa's testimony

953
00:50:44.920 --> 00:50:45.199
at all?

954
00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:48.079
I question it for sure, and I'm sure the jury

955
00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:51.360
questioned it as well. I mean, she she had lied

956
00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:55.119
a lot, and you know, yeah, she was in according

957
00:50:55.119 --> 00:50:57.639
to her even she was in on the whole planning.

958
00:50:57.719 --> 00:50:59.400
So yeah, yeah, can you really trust her? And I

959
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:01.679
think that was the prosecution's fear, too, is that the

960
00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:04.280
jury would not see her as reliable.

961
00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:07.920
She paints herself, you know, not in the best lights.

962
00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:11.360
So and one last clip of Vanessa. She also described

963
00:51:11.400 --> 00:51:14.320
how fearful she had been of Matt starting from when

964
00:51:14.360 --> 00:51:16.599
he was released on bond up until the trial.

965
00:51:17.639 --> 00:51:20.519
Definitely he's possibly well, I know he's killed one person.

966
00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:22.400
I think he's killed two people. What's another notch in

967
00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:25.280
the lipstick case. Not only that, it can put them

968
00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:27.800
behind bars where he can't hurt anybody again, including me.

969
00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:30.920
This is doing nothing good for me, is making me

970
00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:34.239
look bad. I could possibly lose my job because of this.

971
00:51:35.480 --> 00:51:37.559
Ever since he got released from jail. I sleep with

972
00:51:37.599 --> 00:51:38.679
a crystal nail fall.

973
00:51:38.519 --> 00:51:39.239
Next to my bed.

974
00:51:39.639 --> 00:51:41.639
I had nightmares three nights ago that he came and

975
00:51:41.719 --> 00:51:45.239
killed me before I testified. Yes, I am scared of him,

976
00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:46.360
but I'm saying things.

977
00:51:46.239 --> 00:51:46.920
Right right now.

978
00:51:47.679 --> 00:51:51.679
On cross examination, Gray got Vanessa flustered and confused. She

979
00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:55.480
did contradict herself several times. She also didn't show much

980
00:51:55.559 --> 00:51:58.559
remorse and didn't really act like she had done anything wrong.

981
00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:02.639
It was definitely a knockout performance, but the question was

982
00:52:02.679 --> 00:52:06.039
would the jury buy her story or not. From the

983
00:52:06.079 --> 00:52:08.840
beginning of the trial, Matt's lawyer said he expected Matt

984
00:52:08.840 --> 00:52:12.639
to testify. People who knew Matt also expected it, But

985
00:52:12.760 --> 00:52:14.599
when it came time for the defense to put on

986
00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:18.320
their case, Gray only called one witness, a forensic scientist,

987
00:52:18.360 --> 00:52:21.119
who testified that there was a one in oneenty twenty

988
00:52:21.199 --> 00:52:25.320
nine chance that Vanessa had touched the Unison bottle. It

989
00:52:25.400 --> 00:52:28.440
was really kind of pointless to even call this one expert.

990
00:52:29.360 --> 00:52:32.280
If Matt had testified, the prosecution planned on having him

991
00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:35.119
demonstrate with a one hundred and ninety seven pound dummy

992
00:52:35.480 --> 00:52:38.000
how he could have called nine one one, moved Carrie's

993
00:52:38.039 --> 00:52:40.280
body from the bed to the floor while on the phone,

994
00:52:40.719 --> 00:52:43.639
dressed her in a T shirt and panties, performed CPR,

995
00:52:44.039 --> 00:52:46.559
and greeted the empts at the door when they arrived,

996
00:52:46.920 --> 00:52:49.039
all within the span of a four minute nine one

997
00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:52.119
one call. Gray may have heard about this strategy by

998
00:52:52.119 --> 00:52:54.400
the prosecution and knew that it would be a disaster

999
00:52:54.559 --> 00:52:57.679
for his client. The case went to the jury, who

1000
00:52:57.719 --> 00:53:01.199
started deliberating just after two in the after noon. While

1001
00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:03.159
the jury was out, there was a rumor that the

1002
00:53:03.159 --> 00:53:05.840
school where Vanessa was currently teaching had put her on

1003
00:53:05.960 --> 00:53:10.039
administrative leave. It turned out to be true. Around nine

1004
00:53:10.199 --> 00:53:12.840
thirty that evening, the jury came back with their verdict

1005
00:53:13.320 --> 00:53:17.400
guilty of murder. The sentencing hearing took place the day

1006
00:53:17.440 --> 00:53:20.119
after the verdict was read. In this case, the jury

1007
00:53:20.119 --> 00:53:23.320
would decide Matt's sentence, and it could range from probation

1008
00:53:23.519 --> 00:53:26.880
to life in prison probation. Iah, isn't it crazy that

1009
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:30.599
they don't have more sentencing guidelines. The death penalty was

1010
00:53:30.639 --> 00:53:33.559
off the table because Texas law limits the death penalty

1011
00:53:33.639 --> 00:53:37.320
to cases involving either a second felony like burglary, rape

1012
00:53:37.400 --> 00:53:41.480
or multiple murders, or a crime that involves special circumstances,

1013
00:53:42.039 --> 00:53:44.880
for example killing an off duty cop or firefighter, or

1014
00:53:44.920 --> 00:53:49.000
a child under six. While Matt's history of sexually assaulting

1015
00:53:49.039 --> 00:53:51.679
women was not allowed as part of the trial, it

1016
00:53:51.840 --> 00:53:55.440
was fair game. During the sentencing hearing, one woman after

1017
00:53:55.480 --> 00:53:57.840
another took the stand to tell the jury how Matt

1018
00:53:57.880 --> 00:54:02.239
had violently assaulted them. The final witness was Laura Mueller

1019
00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:05.400
formerly Laura Wilson, who flew in from New York to

1020
00:54:05.559 --> 00:54:08.239
finally have her story heard and to hold Matt Baker

1021
00:54:08.280 --> 00:54:11.199
accountable for the trauma that he had caused her nineteen

1022
00:54:11.280 --> 00:54:15.119
years earlier. I get emotional because all these women took

1023
00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:18.400
the stand, and it just felt really cathartic that they

1024
00:54:18.400 --> 00:54:21.119
were able to finally tell their story and be heard.

1025
00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:24.519
The jury deliberated for two and a half hours and

1026
00:54:24.760 --> 00:54:28.760
came back with their sentencing recommendation. Matt hadn't spoken during

1027
00:54:28.800 --> 00:54:31.039
the entire trial, but he got the chance to say

1028
00:54:31.079 --> 00:54:33.840
a few words before the judge handed down the sentence.

1029
00:54:34.679 --> 00:54:38.280
I truly believe in my innocence. I believe the jury

1030
00:54:38.280 --> 00:54:39.159
made a mistake in this.

1031
00:54:40.519 --> 00:54:43.639
I'm during legal reason why you should not be sentenced.

1032
00:54:47.360 --> 00:54:49.159
The sentence of the court that you beconfined in the

1033
00:54:49.199 --> 00:54:52.000
Institutional Division of the Texas Department of Criminal Justice for

1034
00:54:52.039 --> 00:54:54.639
a term of sixty five years.

1035
00:54:54.679 --> 00:54:59.280
Sixty five years, I like it. During the victim impact statements,

1036
00:54:59.320 --> 00:55:01.960
Linda Duel got the chance to address her former son

1037
00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:05.159
in law directly, and she made the most of the opportunity.

1038
00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:08.199
I just I admire Linda so much and all these

1039
00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:11.239
people that really helped get justice. I want to play

1040
00:55:11.280 --> 00:55:13.079
the first couple of minutes of her comments.

1041
00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:16.920
I'm talking to you, Matt today. Okay, you haven't looked

1042
00:55:16.920 --> 00:55:18.960
at me in almost four years. Can you look at

1043
00:55:18.960 --> 00:55:24.639
me today for a little while. Okay. We were so

1044
00:55:25.199 --> 00:55:30.800
blessed to have Carrie in our lives for thirty one years.

1045
00:55:33.360 --> 00:55:41.519
And how she loved us. She loved her brothers, me,

1046
00:55:41.800 --> 00:55:49.559
her father, her extended family, and Matt. Matt, she loved you,

1047
00:55:53.199 --> 00:56:01.639
but more than anything, she'd loved her girls. Her love

1048
00:56:01.719 --> 00:56:09.519
for Kinsey Cassidine, Grace was engraved on her soul, her soul,

1049
00:56:10.159 --> 00:56:13.920
and then you took her from his, Matt. You discarded

1050
00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:18.679
her like she was yesterday's trash.

1051
00:56:19.119 --> 00:56:23.320
You murdered the mother of your children. And I still

1052
00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:27.079
can't wrap my head or my heart around this. And

1053
00:56:27.159 --> 00:56:30.960
you left so many other victims. The people in your

1054
00:56:31.079 --> 00:56:39.119
churches who want to believe that the person leading them

1055
00:56:39.159 --> 00:56:47.679
truly is a man of God. Your family, your family, Matt,

1056
00:56:47.880 --> 00:56:49.119
your friends.

1057
00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:53.039
The people who believed in you. You really can't look

1058
00:56:53.079 --> 00:56:58.719
at me, can you. But the most tragic victims, Matt,

1059
00:56:59.239 --> 00:57:07.519
The most magic victims, Kensy and Grace, those sweet, sweet babies.

1060
00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:12.079
You took their mother and then you fed them lies, Matt.

1061
00:57:13.559 --> 00:57:16.559
You fed them lies, and then you erased her from

1062
00:57:16.760 --> 00:57:19.800
their lives.

1063
00:57:19.840 --> 00:57:24.400
So powerful, Yeah, it's so brave. The fight for justice

1064
00:57:24.440 --> 00:57:27.480
was over, Linda, Jim, Nancy, Kay and Lindsay had worked

1065
00:57:27.519 --> 00:57:31.039
tirelessly for almost four years and spent hundreds of thousands

1066
00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:35.079
of dollars, but their fight wasn't over. There was still

1067
00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:39.119
Kenzie and Grace to think about. Before his conviction, Matt

1068
00:57:39.159 --> 00:57:42.440
had signed over guardianship of the girls to his parents,

1069
00:57:42.559 --> 00:57:46.480
Oscar and Barbara Baker. During the Duelan's first visitation with

1070
00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:49.280
the girls after the trial ended, it was clear that

1071
00:57:49.320 --> 00:57:53.880
both girls, now thirteen and nine, blame their maternal grandparents

1072
00:57:53.880 --> 00:57:58.000
for their father being taken away from them. Kenzie begged them, quote,

1073
00:57:58.480 --> 00:57:59.960
all I want to say is that I do know.

1074
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:02.960
I want to move to Waco. If you really want

1075
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:06.400
us to be happy, leave us in Currville. Linda and

1076
00:58:06.480 --> 00:58:09.599
Jim wanted nothing more than to make Kensi and Grace happy,

1077
00:58:09.760 --> 00:58:13.280
but they worried that being raised by the Bakers would

1078
00:58:13.360 --> 00:58:16.360
not be the best thing for them. Linda reached out

1079
00:58:16.400 --> 00:58:18.920
to Barbara to try and collaborate on what would be

1080
00:58:18.920 --> 00:58:22.039
best for the girls, but she was ignored. It was

1081
00:58:22.079 --> 00:58:24.719
clear to the Dulans that the Bakers were doing everything

1082
00:58:24.760 --> 00:58:28.000
they could to ensure the girls would turn against them.

1083
00:58:28.679 --> 00:58:31.679
About a month after the trial ended, the Dulans filed

1084
00:58:31.679 --> 00:58:35.519
for custody. As you know, the system moved slowly, so

1085
00:58:35.719 --> 00:58:39.440
months passed and then a year. During this time, Kensie

1086
00:58:39.440 --> 00:58:42.320
and Grace continue to live in Kerrville, with the Bakers

1087
00:58:42.719 --> 00:58:47.039
doing well in school and making friends. An independent therapist

1088
00:58:47.079 --> 00:58:50.480
was appointed by the court to assess the Dulans, the Bakers,

1089
00:58:50.480 --> 00:58:53.960
and the girls, and an attorney was appointed to represent

1090
00:58:53.960 --> 00:58:57.880
the girl's interest. The custody trial finally began in July

1091
00:58:58.000 --> 00:59:01.039
twenty eleven, a year and a half after Matt Baker

1092
00:59:01.119 --> 00:59:04.519
was convicted of murder. Kensie was now fifteen and Grace

1093
00:59:04.679 --> 00:59:08.199
was eleven. The girls appointed attorney argued that Kerrie and

1094
00:59:08.239 --> 00:59:11.039
Grace should still be with the Bakers. They didn't want

1095
00:59:11.079 --> 00:59:13.480
to live with the Dulans. They were happy with the Bakers.

1096
00:59:13.800 --> 00:59:16.760
They had friends and a support system in Kerrville. They

1097
00:59:16.760 --> 00:59:19.480
had already left their mother, their father, and a sister.

1098
00:59:20.239 --> 00:59:24.599
The attorney argued that another disruption would further traumatize them.

1099
00:59:25.039 --> 00:59:28.000
It became apparent during the hearing that even in prison,

1100
00:59:28.480 --> 00:59:30.719
their dad was still a big part of the girl's lives.

1101
00:59:31.119 --> 00:59:34.079
He called three times a week and wrote them letters regularly.

1102
00:59:34.719 --> 00:59:37.480
In his letters, he gave them false hope, saying he

1103
00:59:37.519 --> 00:59:41.000
would be home soon. Matt had filed an appeal and

1104
00:59:41.039 --> 00:59:43.480
said he was convinced that he would soon be set

1105
00:59:43.519 --> 00:59:47.440
free and it was good to give the girls hope.

1106
00:59:47.760 --> 00:59:50.000
In one letter, he asked Kensie if she would be

1107
00:59:50.119 --> 00:59:54.960
pen pels with a fellow inmate, another convicted murderer. Kensie

1108
00:59:54.960 --> 00:59:57.840
balked at this, and Matt admitted during the custody hearing

1109
00:59:58.239 --> 01:00:00.119
that this was a lapse in judgment on him his

1110
01:00:00.239 --> 01:00:03.920
part and some letters maturge the girls to stick together

1111
01:00:03.960 --> 01:00:07.119
and protect themselves when they were at the Dulans, and

1112
01:00:07.239 --> 01:00:09.480
also he coached them on what to say to the

1113
01:00:09.599 --> 01:00:12.519
judge if they wanted to stay on Kerrville with Oscar

1114
01:00:12.559 --> 01:00:16.679
and Barbara. Emails from Barbara to her son revealed that

1115
01:00:16.840 --> 01:00:19.880
she was trying to turn Kensie and Grace against Linda

1116
01:00:19.920 --> 01:00:22.920
and Jim. She told Matt how she was refusing to

1117
01:00:22.920 --> 01:00:26.039
communicate with Linda and how Kenzie was trying to sway

1118
01:00:26.119 --> 01:00:29.400
the therapist. This drives me crazy when this happens, Like,

1119
01:00:29.480 --> 01:00:33.480
can someone put the interests of the kids right. It's

1120
01:00:33.679 --> 01:00:36.199
not about your ego, it's not about you know, this

1121
01:00:36.960 --> 01:00:40.760
false relationship they want them to have with their father.

1122
01:00:40.840 --> 01:00:45.360
It's just so sad. Overall, the situation didn't look good

1123
01:00:45.360 --> 01:00:48.719
for the Dulans. The courts generally try not to disrupt

1124
01:00:48.800 --> 01:00:52.519
children in these situations anymore than needed. The fact that

1125
01:00:52.559 --> 01:00:54.239
the girls had been with the Bakers for a year

1126
01:00:54.280 --> 01:00:57.920
and a half, coupled with their court appointed attorney's recommendation

1127
01:00:58.559 --> 01:01:01.840
didn't bode well for the Duels, but Linda and Jim

1128
01:01:01.880 --> 01:01:04.639
had done their homework. They decided that the best way

1129
01:01:04.679 --> 01:01:07.400
to understand what type of environment the girls would be

1130
01:01:07.800 --> 01:01:10.320
brought up in would be to speak with others who

1131
01:01:10.320 --> 01:01:13.159
had been there. In the case of the Bakers, they

1132
01:01:13.159 --> 01:01:16.360
had fostered forty nine different children over an eight year

1133
01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:20.559
span in the seventies and early eighties. The Duelans hired

1134
01:01:20.559 --> 01:01:24.239
an investigator to track down the former foster children. They

1135
01:01:24.239 --> 01:01:26.960
were able to locate thirty of them, and twenty agreed

1136
01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:30.440
to speak with the investigator. What they found was shocking.

1137
01:01:30.880 --> 01:01:34.440
They heard story after story about sexual and emotional abuse

1138
01:01:34.880 --> 01:01:37.760
these foster children had suffered at the hands of Oscar

1139
01:01:38.280 --> 01:01:42.039
and Barbara Baker. Six of them would end up testifying

1140
01:01:42.039 --> 01:01:46.800
at the custody hearing. Starting on day two. Lorie Harden

1141
01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:49.480
testified that she had stayed with the Bakers for two

1142
01:01:49.599 --> 01:01:52.639
years as a troubled teen. During that time, she said

1143
01:01:52.639 --> 01:01:57.239
that Barbara Baker was aggressive and degrading, regularly belittling her

1144
01:01:57.239 --> 01:02:01.000
foster children to make them feel inadequate. There were two

1145
01:02:01.039 --> 01:02:04.559
foster children who were mentally challenged, and Laurie claimed that

1146
01:02:04.760 --> 01:02:08.440
they were favorite targets of Barbara. She also testified that

1147
01:02:08.519 --> 01:02:13.599
Oscar regularly made sexually inappropriate comments and one time stroked

1148
01:02:13.599 --> 01:02:19.119
her leg and buttocks. Connie Mefocheray testified about Oscar kissing

1149
01:02:19.159 --> 01:02:22.639
her and putting his tongue in her mouth. She was

1150
01:02:22.679 --> 01:02:26.079
twelve at the time. Sherry Perkins lived with the Bakers

1151
01:02:26.119 --> 01:02:29.480
from age ten until she was eighteen. She had been

1152
01:02:29.480 --> 01:02:32.480
diagnosed at the time with having the mental capacity of

1153
01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:34.920
a seven year old. She sat on the stand that

1154
01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:40.000
Oscar touched her inappropriately and inserted his fingers into her vagina.

1155
01:02:40.559 --> 01:02:43.960
Barbara would laugh at her, calling her names like porky, pig,

1156
01:02:44.159 --> 01:02:49.199
fatso stupid and retarded. Sherry actually reported these incidents to

1157
01:02:49.280 --> 01:02:53.880
her caseworker. Their response, they placed her in a psychiatric

1158
01:02:53.920 --> 01:02:56.320
hospital for a week and then returned her to the

1159
01:02:56.360 --> 01:03:01.639
Baker household. He's poor foster kids. After that, she never

1160
01:03:01.719 --> 01:03:04.159
spoke up again because she didn't want to go back

1161
01:03:04.239 --> 01:03:08.000
to what she referred to as the crazy hospital. She

1162
01:03:08.159 --> 01:03:11.599
was asked on cross examination why she later visited the

1163
01:03:11.639 --> 01:03:14.159
Bakers even after she had moved out and was living

1164
01:03:14.199 --> 01:03:18.239
on her own. In a heartbreaking statement, she said, because

1165
01:03:18.280 --> 01:03:22.480
I thought of them as my parents. Tracy Owens lived

1166
01:03:22.480 --> 01:03:25.559
with the Bakers from age seven to nine. She said

1167
01:03:25.599 --> 01:03:28.800
that Oscar began touching her inappropriately while bathing her, and

1168
01:03:28.840 --> 01:03:32.880
that gradually progressed to him making her perform oral sex

1169
01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:37.199
on him and then to full intercourse. She said that

1170
01:03:37.239 --> 01:03:39.440
he also passed her around to other men in the

1171
01:03:39.480 --> 01:03:41.719
community who sexually abused her.

1172
01:03:41.880 --> 01:03:44.079
Oh, his stories are so horrible, So horrible.

1173
01:03:44.239 --> 01:03:47.559
The Bakers found one formal foster child to testify in

1174
01:03:47.599 --> 01:03:52.880
their defense. James Hodges notice It's a male, said that

1175
01:03:52.960 --> 01:03:56.199
he never saw anything inappropriate happen during his time living

1176
01:03:56.199 --> 01:03:58.960
with the Bakers, and that the six women who testified

1177
01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:02.360
were all lying, although he wasn't able to explain how

1178
01:04:02.400 --> 01:04:05.400
he could have known that. We should note that Oscar

1179
01:04:05.440 --> 01:04:08.480
and Barbara Baker have denied all of these stories of abuse.

1180
01:04:09.360 --> 01:04:12.159
The therapist who had been appointed to evaluate both the

1181
01:04:12.239 --> 01:04:15.519
Duelan and Baker households, recommended that Jim and Linda be

1182
01:04:15.559 --> 01:04:20.320
given sole managing conservatorship over the girls. She said that

1183
01:04:20.360 --> 01:04:22.880
she believed the current environment the girls were living in

1184
01:04:23.000 --> 01:04:26.639
was unhealthy, that the Bakers were making a concerted effort

1185
01:04:26.920 --> 01:04:29.480
to drive a wedge between the girls and the Dulans.

1186
01:04:29.960 --> 01:04:32.519
Was there any evidence of any abuse.

1187
01:04:32.920 --> 01:04:33.239
Not that.

1188
01:04:35.400 --> 01:04:38.960
She said the girls had what is called parental alienation syndrome.

1189
01:04:39.280 --> 01:04:42.199
This occurs when a child is manipulated into turning against

1190
01:04:42.239 --> 01:04:45.960
a parent or grandparent in this case, and believing everything

1191
01:04:46.000 --> 01:04:48.519
they do is wrong. On a scale of one to ten,

1192
01:04:48.599 --> 01:04:51.400
she said the degree of alienation with Kenzie and Grace

1193
01:04:51.920 --> 01:04:54.800
was somewhere in the eight to ten range, and that

1194
01:04:54.960 --> 01:04:59.239
is most certainly a form of child abuse. She was asked,

1195
01:04:59.239 --> 01:05:01.480
shouldn't the girls wishes to say where the Baker's be

1196
01:05:01.519 --> 01:05:05.239
taken into consideration. She replied, quote, I don't know of

1197
01:05:05.320 --> 01:05:07.679
any adolescents who know what's best for them.

1198
01:05:08.199 --> 01:05:08.480
True.

1199
01:05:08.880 --> 01:05:11.480
Lastly, Kensie took the stand to express her wish to

1200
01:05:11.519 --> 01:05:14.840
stand Kerville with the Bakers. She was asked how she

1201
01:05:14.880 --> 01:05:17.920
went from referring to the Dulan's home as her favorite

1202
01:05:17.960 --> 01:05:20.119
place in a note she wrote in two thousand and five,

1203
01:05:20.599 --> 01:05:23.239
the year before her mother died, to saying I hate

1204
01:05:23.280 --> 01:05:26.440
Linda and Jim. Only a couple of years later, she

1205
01:05:26.519 --> 01:05:29.000
said it was because Linda and Jim took her dad

1206
01:05:29.039 --> 01:05:31.960
away from her. The attorney pointed out that it was

1207
01:05:31.960 --> 01:05:34.480
the state of Texas that tried their dad and a

1208
01:05:34.599 --> 01:05:38.599
jury that convicted him. Kensie replied, quote, I don't feel

1209
01:05:38.639 --> 01:05:41.119
they love me anymore. They don't show it like they

1210
01:05:41.199 --> 01:05:45.360
used to. The jury deliberated for a day before returning

1211
01:05:45.400 --> 01:05:49.239
their decision. That's such a hard thing for a jury

1212
01:05:49.280 --> 01:05:52.000
to weigh in on. The girls would live in way

1213
01:05:52.079 --> 01:05:53.519
Go with Linda and Jim Doolan.

1214
01:05:54.920 --> 01:05:58.400
What do you think about that decision? U, I.

1215
01:05:58.320 --> 01:06:01.119
Mean, obviously I think it was the best decision for them.

1216
01:06:01.559 --> 01:06:03.719
It must have been super hard, especially for Kenzie because

1217
01:06:03.719 --> 01:06:07.679
she was fifteen and fifteen, if you recall, it's like

1218
01:06:08.039 --> 01:06:10.679
the hardest year of your life. Yeah, so to have

1219
01:06:10.760 --> 01:06:12.760
to you know, be uprooted and to lose your mom

1220
01:06:12.800 --> 01:06:15.480
and lose your dad and listen to your baby sister like, yeah,

1221
01:06:15.480 --> 01:06:17.639
mar Kenzie is I mean, she's I mean, they've both

1222
01:06:17.639 --> 01:06:19.960
been through up but Kenzie at that age is that's

1223
01:06:20.000 --> 01:06:22.599
such a critical age. Yeah, And really eleven two is

1224
01:06:22.679 --> 01:06:24.440
also like a super critical age too.

1225
01:06:24.599 --> 01:06:27.480
Yeah, for sure, that's a great transition because that that

1226
01:06:27.639 --> 01:06:30.760
was actually where the Catherine Casey book ended. And to me,

1227
01:06:30.840 --> 01:06:33.639
it was it was good, That's what I thought was

1228
01:06:33.679 --> 01:06:35.079
the right thing to do, but it also was kind

1229
01:06:35.079 --> 01:06:37.119
of a cliffhanger because I'm like, well, the girls were

1230
01:06:37.159 --> 01:06:40.199
really opposed to this, and like, how did that turn out?

1231
01:06:40.400 --> 01:06:41.039
So luckily?

1232
01:06:41.119 --> 01:06:43.559
Him and Linda seem they.

1233
01:06:43.440 --> 01:06:47.320
Seem like really really nice, good people. So I'm happy

1234
01:06:47.360 --> 01:06:49.800
to say that based on some Facebook slew thing that

1235
01:06:49.840 --> 01:06:53.000
I did, it seems like Kenzie and Grace are both

1236
01:06:53.079 --> 01:06:56.440
doing well and they remained very close to Linda Dulan

1237
01:06:56.559 --> 01:06:58.760
and the rest of the duel In family. Jim Doolan

1238
01:06:58.960 --> 01:07:02.679
sadly passed away twenty fourteen. Both of the girls are

1239
01:07:02.679 --> 01:07:06.199
in their twenties now. They both post occasionally about their

1240
01:07:06.199 --> 01:07:09.800
memories of their mom, along with posts that are loving

1241
01:07:09.840 --> 01:07:13.119
and appreciative of Linda and Jim. I haven't seen any

1242
01:07:13.199 --> 01:07:16.639
mentions of Barbara and Oscar Baker, and they're not connected.

1243
01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:20.679
The girls aren't connected with Barbara on Facebook. Oscar also

1244
01:07:20.719 --> 01:07:24.400
passed away in twenty twelve, so I'm not sure if

1245
01:07:24.480 --> 01:07:28.039
and for how long those relationships continued after the custody battle.

1246
01:07:28.719 --> 01:07:32.000
One year, on Linda's birthday, Kenzie wrote about her quote,

1247
01:07:32.440 --> 01:07:34.719
I don't think it'll come as any surprise, but she's

1248
01:07:34.800 --> 01:07:37.920
kind of a badass. She is hilarious, she is kind,

1249
01:07:38.360 --> 01:07:41.159
she is incredibly smart, but also works harder than anyone

1250
01:07:41.159 --> 01:07:44.119
I have ever met. She is the definition of resilience.

1251
01:07:44.559 --> 01:07:46.760
She is a caregiver, but is also honest when she

1252
01:07:46.920 --> 01:07:49.400
is the one in need. Sometimes I just watch her

1253
01:07:49.400 --> 01:07:52.159
in awe and think how lucky I am that that

1254
01:07:52.519 --> 01:07:54.719
is who I get to look up to and learn from.

1255
01:07:55.159 --> 01:07:59.039
I come from resilient stock. A couple of years ago,

1256
01:07:59.079 --> 01:08:02.639
on Carrie's birthday, Grace wrote quote, you were a light

1257
01:08:02.719 --> 01:08:05.079
in the darkness. You loved Kensie and I with your

1258
01:08:05.079 --> 01:08:08.480
whole heart. Your laugh was contagious. Your smile could light

1259
01:08:08.559 --> 01:08:10.599
up a room. I wish I could have had more

1260
01:08:10.679 --> 01:08:13.559
years with you, but sadly that was not what happened.

1261
01:08:14.119 --> 01:08:16.600
You were taken from this world too soon. I used

1262
01:08:16.640 --> 01:08:19.439
to cry every year that your birthday came around. Now

1263
01:08:19.479 --> 01:08:22.560
I celebrate. I know that's what you would want. I

1264
01:08:22.640 --> 01:08:24.520
try my best to be the woman you raised me

1265
01:08:24.600 --> 01:08:28.800
to be. I am succeeding. I laugh hard, love unconditionally,

1266
01:08:28.920 --> 01:08:31.880
and smile. People tell me that my smile is just

1267
01:08:32.000 --> 01:08:34.600
like yours. It's one of the many things you blessed

1268
01:08:34.600 --> 01:08:38.239
me with. I miss you more than words can describe.

1269
01:08:38.279 --> 01:08:41.760
Both Kenzie and Grace seem like lovely, well adjusted, courageous

1270
01:08:41.800 --> 01:08:44.600
and strong women. I'm sure their mom is looking down

1271
01:08:44.600 --> 01:08:48.760
on them and is proud. Rest in peace, Carrie. So

1272
01:08:48.880 --> 01:08:50.720
we've had a lot of discussion along the way, and

1273
01:08:50.760 --> 01:08:53.359
I know this has been a long three part episode

1274
01:08:53.399 --> 01:08:55.680
and we're already kind of running along as well, so

1275
01:08:56.000 --> 01:08:58.000
I didn't want to stretch it too much longer. But

1276
01:08:58.079 --> 01:09:01.279
one thing I'm really in to talk about with you

1277
01:09:01.359 --> 01:09:04.800
and get your take on is what is wrong with Matt?

1278
01:09:05.000 --> 01:09:08.640
Like he something is wrong with him. I know that

1279
01:09:08.720 --> 01:09:09.680
sounds obvious, but.

1280
01:09:09.920 --> 01:09:11.920
So he didn't have a psychological evaluation.

1281
01:09:12.800 --> 01:09:16.159
I never read about any psychological evaluation with him, but

1282
01:09:16.479 --> 01:09:18.960
just the fact that he seemed to have no emotions

1283
01:09:19.600 --> 01:09:23.319
when his daughter died, when his wife died, when he's

1284
01:09:23.359 --> 01:09:25.920
calling nine to one one just all the things he

1285
01:09:26.000 --> 01:09:28.800
said are just so like you would tell people that

1286
01:09:28.920 --> 01:09:32.119
Carrie was a horrible mother right after she died, and

1287
01:09:32.520 --> 01:09:35.840
he just seemed to have no like awareness or compass.

1288
01:09:36.159 --> 01:09:39.000
Yeah, we do this every week, and we probably shouldn't.

1289
01:09:39.039 --> 01:09:44.520
We diagnose people with different psychological conditions, and you know,

1290
01:09:44.560 --> 01:09:46.960
we don't have the tools, we don't know the people, so.

1291
01:09:47.079 --> 01:09:50.199
We haven't done a in depth interview with.

1292
01:09:50.279 --> 01:09:51.880
Right And It's been a long time since I've been

1293
01:09:51.880 --> 01:09:56.520
in college, so but that's it. I'm still going to

1294
01:09:56.600 --> 01:10:01.319
have an opinion. It's possible that he had antisocial personality disorders.

1295
01:10:01.399 --> 01:10:09.319
Some of the markers of anti social personality disorder include deceitfulness, hostility, irresponsibility, manipulativeness,

1296
01:10:09.720 --> 01:10:15.000
risk taking behaviors, aggression, impulsivity, irritability or lack of restraint,

1297
01:10:15.399 --> 01:10:20.039
and their mood tends to be angry, bored, or generally

1298
01:10:20.439 --> 01:10:21.399
one of discomfort.

1299
01:10:22.000 --> 01:10:23.720
Do you think that sounds like a lot of that

1300
01:10:23.800 --> 01:10:24.479
sounds like mad.

1301
01:10:24.640 --> 01:10:24.880
Yeah.

1302
01:10:24.880 --> 01:10:27.439
The deceitfulness thing is interesting because I didn't really talk

1303
01:10:27.479 --> 01:10:30.399
about it, but he did lie a lot, Like people

1304
01:10:30.439 --> 01:10:32.479
that he worked with would notice that he would just

1305
01:10:32.520 --> 01:10:36.039
lie about things that didn't didn't really matter that much,

1306
01:10:36.039 --> 01:10:38.520
but he would just lie really easily.

1307
01:10:39.319 --> 01:10:42.159
I have known people like that, and it's always very strange, like,

1308
01:10:42.239 --> 01:10:44.039
why would you make that story up?

1309
01:10:44.119 --> 01:10:44.279
Right?

1310
01:10:44.319 --> 01:10:46.800
You know, it doesn't benefit you to me that story up.

1311
01:10:47.159 --> 01:10:50.199
You had mentioned maybe he was a psychopath or a sociopath,

1312
01:10:50.239 --> 01:10:53.359
and again, those terms are thrown around a lot, and

1313
01:10:53.439 --> 01:10:56.640
they do have a lot of characteristics in common, including

1314
01:10:57.079 --> 01:10:59.600
lack of remorse, or empathy for others, lack of guilt

1315
01:10:59.640 --> 01:11:03.399
or bil to take responsibility for their actions, a disregard

1316
01:11:03.479 --> 01:11:06.880
for laws or social conventions, and an inclination to violence.

1317
01:11:07.319 --> 01:11:10.920
The difference between sociopaths and psychopaths are believed, I believe

1318
01:11:11.000 --> 01:11:16.960
is sociopaths are made and psychopaths are born. Sociopaths tend

1319
01:11:17.000 --> 01:11:21.720
to act more on impulse, and psychopaths tend to would

1320
01:11:21.800 --> 01:11:26.199
plan things out. Oh interesting, and you demonstrated that men

1321
01:11:26.439 --> 01:11:29.239
plan things out. He planned things out way in advance.

1322
01:11:29.399 --> 01:11:29.640
Yeah.

1323
01:11:29.720 --> 01:11:30.479
Wow. Interesting.

1324
01:11:30.560 --> 01:11:32.800
You have to wonder, like, how long had he been

1325
01:11:32.960 --> 01:11:35.680
planning and killing her for just like something that he'd

1326
01:11:35.720 --> 01:11:37.119
been wanting to do for years.

1327
01:11:37.520 --> 01:11:39.520
Well, it seems like from what we can tell it

1328
01:11:39.560 --> 01:11:42.560
was it was after he met Vanessa, So it was

1329
01:11:42.600 --> 01:11:45.560
like probably three months before it happened when he started

1330
01:11:45.600 --> 01:11:48.039
thinking about it, But who knows, he may have thought

1331
01:11:48.039 --> 01:11:48.760
about it before.

1332
01:11:49.279 --> 01:11:51.520
One thing that drives me nuts with these typically men

1333
01:11:52.119 --> 01:11:56.000
is that they want to dispose of their mate and

1334
01:11:56.079 --> 01:11:58.039
find another mate, and they think it's their life is

1335
01:11:58.079 --> 01:12:01.840
going to be completely different. I have a different mate, right,

1336
01:12:02.159 --> 01:12:04.439
and you know it's like it's only a matter of

1337
01:12:04.520 --> 01:12:07.479
time until that relationship goes bad too, Yeah, exactly. Do

1338
01:12:07.520 --> 01:12:08.680
you think he would have killed again?

1339
01:12:09.319 --> 01:12:11.600
I think he absolutely would have killed again if he

1340
01:12:11.760 --> 01:12:16.000
had gotten remarried and found that his new wife was

1341
01:12:16.600 --> 01:12:19.319
inconvenient for whatever reason. I think he looked at people

1342
01:12:19.880 --> 01:12:23.399
as if they were disposable and yeah, it's horrible. Well,

1343
01:12:23.399 --> 01:12:24.920
thanks for hanging in there with us. I know that

1344
01:12:25.000 --> 01:12:27.199
was a lot. I know it was. It was emotionally exhausting,

1345
01:12:27.279 --> 01:12:29.840
I think for us, just yeah, going through all that.

1346
01:12:29.880 --> 01:12:30.920
But I can you.

1347
01:12:30.920 --> 01:12:33.359
Say, you're working on an airplane and you started.

1348
01:12:33.000 --> 01:12:35.039
Doing up at the airplane.

1349
01:12:35.119 --> 01:12:40.119
Yeah, it's hard. I'm proud of you. You did it.

1350
01:12:40.119 --> 01:12:42.880
It's hard to get through these sad stories sometimes. And

1351
01:12:43.199 --> 01:12:47.479
I can tell that you are emotionally like, I don't know,

1352
01:12:47.560 --> 01:12:50.319
sometimes just like we feel responsible for the victims in

1353
01:12:50.319 --> 01:12:53.800
a way, like telling their stories and yeah, yeah, that

1354
01:12:53.840 --> 01:12:57.079
can be hard, and you just get attached to them

1355
01:12:57.119 --> 01:12:58.319
and you care about them.

1356
01:12:58.399 --> 01:13:00.000
Yeah, and you really want to do a good job.

1357
01:13:00.479 --> 01:13:02.159
Yeah, well you did. You did a great job.

1358
01:13:08.279 --> 01:13:13.039
This case will be publishing on September thirtieth for most people,

1359
01:13:13.680 --> 01:13:16.800
and then the next day after that is October first. Yeah,

1360
01:13:16.960 --> 01:13:17.640
you know what that is.

1361
01:13:17.800 --> 01:13:20.760
I do know what that is that's the day that

1362
01:13:20.840 --> 01:13:24.560
you told me I could put Halloween decorations up exactly

1363
01:13:24.560 --> 01:13:28.000
because I married a psychopath who thinks that you can't

1364
01:13:28.039 --> 01:13:31.399
decorate for Halloween till October.

1365
01:13:30.880 --> 01:13:33.920
For thirty one days, there's plenty of days to have

1366
01:13:33.960 --> 01:13:35.159
Halloween decorations up.

1367
01:13:35.239 --> 01:13:37.520
Well, when can you put because I have like ball

1368
01:13:37.600 --> 01:13:41.479
decorations and then Halloween decorations.

1369
01:13:40.920 --> 01:13:42.159
I don't know.

1370
01:13:42.479 --> 01:13:43.960
Can you put up ball decorations?

1371
01:13:44.079 --> 01:13:46.079
I can't, I shouldn't even I shouldn't even wait, do

1372
01:13:46.119 --> 01:13:46.600
you want to give?

1373
01:13:46.640 --> 01:13:46.680
You?

1374
01:13:46.800 --> 01:13:49.319
Just write a guideline of what I can and can't

1375
01:13:49.319 --> 01:13:50.760
do that I can adhere to.

1376
01:13:51.000 --> 01:13:53.880
Okay, all right, I shouldn't have weighed in, because I

1377
01:13:53.960 --> 01:13:57.920
really the whole decorating thing is too It's too much

1378
01:13:57.920 --> 01:13:59.159
for me to wrap my brain around.

1379
01:13:59.199 --> 01:14:01.680
So the thing that's hard, though, is like from the

1380
01:14:01.760 --> 01:14:05.520
time we put up like fall decorations, our house is

1381
01:14:05.560 --> 01:14:09.840
decorated September, October, November, December. So that's you pretty much

1382
01:14:09.880 --> 01:14:12.159
we go from one season to the next. I don't

1383
01:14:12.159 --> 01:14:15.239
think we used to decorate for Christmas until later, but

1384
01:14:15.319 --> 01:14:17.399
I've started doing it earlier, as a lot of people

1385
01:14:17.399 --> 01:14:20.319
have done. But I'm sorry, I regret that is not

1386
01:14:20.359 --> 01:14:23.159
what we were not. October first is the two year

1387
01:14:23.159 --> 01:14:27.159
anniversary of a little podcast called Love Mary Kill.

1388
01:14:27.319 --> 01:14:28.159
Two years.

1389
01:14:28.399 --> 01:14:31.560
Two years, I can't believe. I can't believe it.

1390
01:14:32.520 --> 01:14:34.119
We've been doing it for that long. Yeah, and that

1391
01:14:34.159 --> 01:14:37.319
we have not missed a week. We've published an episode

1392
01:14:37.359 --> 01:14:37.880
every week.

1393
01:14:38.199 --> 01:14:40.920
Yeah, and that is something that we are very proud

1394
01:14:40.920 --> 01:14:43.520
of because we don't talk about it much, but there's

1395
01:14:43.520 --> 01:14:44.840
been a lot of times when we're like, we just

1396
01:14:44.880 --> 01:14:48.479
can't do it, we can't get it together, whether it's

1397
01:14:48.560 --> 01:14:50.600
like because of our health, because of our travel schedule,

1398
01:14:50.680 --> 01:14:53.760
because of just life. So yeah, we've done one hundred

1399
01:14:53.760 --> 01:14:55.880
and four weeks in a row, and I'm really proud

1400
01:14:55.880 --> 01:14:57.720
of that, and I know you are too.

1401
01:14:58.000 --> 01:14:58.840
I am proud of it too.

1402
01:14:59.119 --> 01:15:01.640
We're so grateful for some of you guys have been

1403
01:15:01.680 --> 01:15:03.520
around for a long time. Some of you guys are

1404
01:15:03.560 --> 01:15:07.319
newer listers. I love when newer listers message us and

1405
01:15:07.439 --> 01:15:09.279
they'll be like, I listen to all your episodes in

1406
01:15:09.319 --> 01:15:12.880
two weeks, and that is dedication. That is dedication. First

1407
01:15:12.920 --> 01:15:16.640
of all, if you can get through the early episodes, congratulations,

1408
01:15:16.680 --> 01:15:20.720
you deserve a medal for that. Because I want to

1409
01:15:20.760 --> 01:15:21.840
think that we've improved.

1410
01:15:21.960 --> 01:15:23.760
I think, Yeah, I don't think we really knew what

1411
01:15:23.800 --> 01:15:25.720
we were doing when we started. We still don't.

1412
01:15:25.960 --> 01:15:28.319
Still I think you do. I still I'm still figuring out.

1413
01:15:28.359 --> 01:15:35.000
But anyway, you're a heartful, sincere Thank you for listening.

1414
01:15:35.159 --> 01:15:37.479
Yeah, we we appreciate it so much and we would

1415
01:15:37.479 --> 01:15:39.520
not still be doing this if it wasn't for all

1416
01:15:39.600 --> 01:15:41.319
of you that are listening and that send us.

1417
01:15:41.239 --> 01:15:43.399
Your feet back, a lot of great encourage.

1418
01:15:43.479 --> 01:15:45.640
Yeah, it's really really warms our heart.

1419
01:15:45.640 --> 01:15:52.079
And some helpful criticisms a couple of things along the way.

1420
01:15:52.680 --> 01:15:54.960
Yeah, but we don't want to dwell on that though.

1421
01:15:55.520 --> 01:16:00.560
Absolutely not. I mean it's you know, Yeah, we're grateful.

1422
01:16:01.800 --> 01:16:04.680
Well, we do love to connect with you. Also follow

1423
01:16:04.800 --> 01:16:07.680
us on Instagram or Facebook. You can find us on

1424
01:16:07.720 --> 01:16:12.279
social media. Email us at lovemarykillat gmail dot com, and

1425
01:16:12.439 --> 01:16:16.560
consider supporting us on Patreon dot com slash Lovemrykill. We

1426
01:16:16.680 --> 01:16:19.600
have one tier five dollars a month for early ad

1427
01:16:19.640 --> 01:16:22.520
free access and a monthly bonus episode.

1428
01:16:23.000 --> 01:16:27.439
Very good and if you haven't, maybe you could consider

1429
01:16:27.560 --> 01:16:30.840
leaving us a five star review on Apple or Spotify.

1430
01:16:31.359 --> 01:16:35.000
You would really appreciate it. Until next time, don't kill

1431
01:16:35.000 --> 01:16:36.479
your wife and don't kill your husband

1432
01:17:00.079 --> 01:17:18.640
A companion the